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Rejecting Sputnik to Own Putler
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Yesterday the Levada Center released a new poll on vaccines that tends to confirm my contention that Russia’s tawdry pace of vaccinations is not a result of supply constraints, but the banal fact that many Russians (including in older age groups) would simply rather catch Corona than get vaccinated.

The first observation is that the percentage of people saying they won’t get vaccinated has been steady at more than 50% of population despite half a year and counting of increasingly intense government pro-vaccination propaganda.

The people who are open to getting vaccinated are doing exactly just that. 19% say they have been, which is close to the 18% of official statistics. Unless there’s some cardinal change of views, this means that Russia’s final vaccination rate is probably capped at something like 40-50% (short of it being made mandatory – but that is unlikely to happen, 58% oppose that idea and so does Putin).

Note that this poll was conducted in 24-30 Jun, when the Delta wave was already in full swing and Moscow restaurants were ordered to require QR vaccination codes for entry.

This graph, however, is much more telling. In most countries, it is the elderly who are much more eager to get the vaccine, for obvious reasons. In Russia, these inter-generational differences are much more modest. Almost half of 55+ year olds simply don’t want to get vaccinated and that’s that. Amongst those who do, half already had been.

This is the main and really only reason why in Britain, where vaccination of the elderly is at 95%+, mortality is drastically lower than in Russia where interest from that demographic (and in general) was so feeble that age restrictions on Sputnik access were withdrawn a month after it became publicly available in January.

Moreover, contrary to claims made by pro-Western propagandists (including some in comments to this blog), pro-vaccination sentiments, at least as concerns Russian-made vaccines, are much stronger amongst Putin supporters.

Of those who approve of Putin, 22% are vaccinated and 31% intend to (=53% total), while 45% would not.

Of those who don’t approve of Putin, only 14% are vaccinated and 14% intend to (=28% total), while 71% would not.

This is partially explainable by the age effect because younger people are more anti-Putin and also more anti-vaccination. However, since the difference between ideology is much stronger than the difference between age groups, this can’t be the main explanation.

Unsurprising. But worth keeping in mind, considering liberal/pro-Navalny elites’ belated attempts to pin the anti-vaxxer label onto Putinists, after having themselves engaged in bitter anti-Sputnik propaganda in service of their foreign sponsors several months ago.

I suppose a silver lining here is that mortality should become increasingly loaded against Putin opponents, many of whom evidently conflate their opinion with him and on anything made in Russia, and would rather get a foreign synthesized virus than take a Russian-made vaccine.

 
• Category: Science • Tags: Corona, Opinion Poll, Russia, Vaccines 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Mersaux says:

    It’s sad that Russians don’t trust their own safe vaccine and instaed prefer suffering from Covid-19. Russian nationalists have a lot of work to do. Maybe too much

  3. This is unfortunate for Russia, since the Sputnik V Covid vaccine is efficacious and so far does not seem to have vaccine induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia as an adverse effect like other adenovirus carrier vaccines (Astra Zeneca, J and J).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2

    I wonder if these Putin-hating Russian youths will actually accept Sputnik V vaccines if the EMA approves it(an extremely unlikely event, I suppose), or do they only prefer American /Western vaccines?

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Mulga Mumblebrain
  4. melanf says:

    short of it being made mandatory – but that is unlikely to happen, 58% oppose that idea and so does Putin

    A recent survey – 40% of Russian residents are in favor of mandatory vaccination, 14% are against
    https://wciom.ru/analytical-reviews/analiticheskii-obzor/vakcinacija-s-ehlementami-objazatelnosti-za-i-protiv

    • Thanks: Sinotibetan
  5. Beckow says:

    …silver lining here is that mortality should become increasingly loaded against Putin opponents

    Given the extremely low mortality from Corona this is a strange projection – the numbers are so minuscule that you couldn’t possibly see the difference.

    You are chemical addicts to modernity unable to see that a danger of fraction of a percent (corona) vs. danger of a similar fraction of a percent (vaccines) is a non-event. Can you do math?

    We see that some – almost all among the old, very fat or already sick – die early. They should vaccinate, sooner the better, the sick always need help. But healthy people? What is your obsession with pumping barely tested chemical concoctions to healthy young people? Why would that be in any universe a normal thing?

    The addicts, hypochondriacs and hysterics cannot be helped. You do what you must and leave the others alone. I am glad to see that Russia’s share of normal people is similar to elsewhere: one third to a half. As for the sick and the lemmings, well, we have to share this world for now – maybe this is the long-awaited evolutionary test, let’s see how it goes. Even tactically, if you are right, there will be more than enough opportunity for vaccines later when we know more about how they work or don’t work.

  6. melanf says:
    @Sinotibetan

    I wonder if these Putin-hating Russian youths will actually accept Sputnik V vaccines if the EMA approves it

    Of course, they will not be vaccinated in this case either. The reasoning “I am not vaccinated because I am against Putin” is just a fig leaf. The real reasoning looks like this – “I’m young, so covid is not dangerous for me, and I don’t care about other people.” But that’s not what they say out loud

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
    • Thanks: Sinotibetan
    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Sinotibetan
  7. @Beckow

    We dont know the extent of Covid’s secondary effects. Apparently it can cause permanent damage to lugs, decrease of IQ , infertility … so it might be worth to get vaccinated even for the young people.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  8. Hilarious to see these claims of “foreign sponsors” without a shred of evidence.

    Additional information: Vlad’s handling of the pandemic has been disastrous. Some of the worst mortality in the world. Doesn’t the fact that nearly half of his supporters reject vaccination speak for itself?

    Finally, it’s pretty funny how a supposed russian nationalist calls the death of russians a “silver lining”. A bit of a big oof

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  9. foreign synthesized virus

    What? You’re now WuFlu truther, Anatoly?

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  10. Beckow says:
    @Maïkl Makfaïl

    We don’t know the extent of MRNA vaccines secondary effects. Apparently they can cause neurological problems, heart muscle inflammation, fertility issues and a further decrease of IQ. It may be worth to wait, especially for the young and healthy.

    The secondary effect story – the long corona – has almost nothing to go on: no data other than some people claiming to be very tired (right “tired”, who isn’t?). The coronists argue when shown data about side effects of vaccines that it would have happened anyway. With the same logic we can say that long corona would have happened anyway.

    • Agree: Pop Warner
    • Replies: @Passer by
    , @showmethereal
  11. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    …I’m young, so covid is not dangerous for me, and I don’t care about other people.

    If they are vaccinated how in the world could the young jeopardise them? Do you lack logic?

    In any case, when did the elderly do anything for the young? What right do you have now to ask for sacrifices and favours? It is payback time, it takes two to show social solidarity.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Bill
  12. @melanf

    Such a reasoning is dangerous. Recently , I had the opportunity to speak to some colleagues who were involved in the medical management of Covid patients. There were a considerable number of young patients with no previous medical co-morbidities with severe Covid : bad organizing pneumonia as well as concurrent pulmonary embolism. They also tend to deteriorate rather quickly, some had mild illness in the morning ,only to require intubation in the evening with severe cytokine storm. Seemingly a high percentage of these young patients succumb to the disease. Earlier on during the pandemic, at least in their experience, it was not the case.
    Of course these are all anecdotal. Unfortunately, I do not have data on whether the disease has evolved to be deadlier on the young with no co-morbids or this is just the experience of the medical center I work with.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Beckow
  13. melanf says:
    @Beckow

    If they are vaccinated how in the world could the young jeopardise them?

    The best vaccines reduce the probability of getting sick by 5-10 times (in the case of the delta strain of Covid). So the danger is quite real even for the vaccinated

  14. melanf says:
    @Sinotibetan

    Such a reasoning is dangerous

    I know. I personally know university students who were in the hospital with affected lungs. But This is even before the delta strain

  15. Gigi says:

    Are there any estimates of the Covid-19 mortality rates in Russia across age cohorts?
    Thanks

  16. from the link https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    “David Asher, a fellow of the Hudson Institute and former consultant to the State Department, provided more detail about the incident at a seminar. Knowledge of the incident came from a mix of public information and “some high end information collected by our intelligence community,” he said. Three people working at a BSL3 lab at the institute fell sick within a week of each other with severe symptoms that required hospitalization.”

    “3 people with severe symptoms that required hospitalization.” sounds very unlikely to me. For young healthy people, and I suppose such people work at these labs, the hospitalization rate of Covid-19 is low. With 3 people hospitalized you would expect that more or less the whole staff was infected. I don’t think this was the case.
    The most famous Covid-19 expert on Covid-19 in Germany, Prof. Drosten, has recently debunked some the points reported by Wade.
    Still an unclear situation.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  17. Beckow says:
    @Sinotibetan

    If what you say was widespread we would be told about it endlessly by the mainstream media. Using terms like “considerable”, “tend to”, “seemingly” suggests subjectivity.

    Nothing in the published data so far shows statistically significant danger for the young and healthy, and it shows zero risk for children. On the other hand, there is substantial data showing serious MRNA side effects for young people. One EU-UK statistic shows that for 18-29 year-old men hospitalisation is 75 times more frequent after vaccination compared to corona.

    The old cannot live a risk-free existence. If the vaccine only protects you 10-fold and there is still a risk, well, sell your assets and go and hide. The pathological selfishness of the elderly who are willing to sacrifice the young in order to slightly improve their corona odds is the real mental epidemic. Led by 78-year olds who need a nap in the afternoon they preach to us about “caring”.

    • Replies: @Sinotibetan
    , @rpb
  18. @Felix Keverich

    From Wade’s account it would actually be a Sino-American project. Anyhow, I was saying it could have been lab-generated as early as Jan 2020, so I don’t know how that’s here or there, I never promoted “WuFlu” because that specific narrative never had anything to do with reasonable discussion, it was just MAGA chud rage.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  19. @Beckow

    What is your obsession with pumping barely tested chemical concoctions to healthy young people?

    You seem to have extreme difficulties with reading comprehension.

    Where does this obsession manifest? I specifically said that Russia’s high mortality is because of geezers refusing to vaccinate, not young people.

    The only person obsessed here is yourself.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Troll: Pop Warner
    • Replies: @Beckow
  20. GMC says:

    Many of the people I know here are going for the Sputnik V, some are doing it for work purposes, some are old and trust what the authorities say. Really hard to say how all the Russian people are reacting to it. The wife is pushing me , but I had the virus that was going around and lived without thinking I would die, but I saw some pretty old folks in our hospital that were really sick. My doctor is a pensioner doc , fairly young but energetic and his office is at the hospital – he was pretty sharp.
    My hesitancy about taking it is, I already had the virus, so I should have the most natural immunity towards that virus money can buy – my vaccine was the real deal. However , as other commenters have said – it’s a lab virus , so we have no clue , what is in store for us – down the road. This is where the Gov. should be taking over and fast. By going along with the WHO program , instead of finding out where this is being made – and confronting it – it’s like waiting for the fox to enter the chicken coup – Again and Again….. .
    I’ll probably have to opt out for a Sputnik jab eventually – I wish to travel internationally, but I’ll wait for at least 8 mos , since I had the virus. At 71 a little extra insurance is not a bad thing and Sputnik is only a mix of a 2 common cold viruses vax – Ad 26 and Ad 5 – hopefully. Thanks A K.

  21. @Beckow

    As I conceded in my comment, these were anecdotal observations. I never claim to say it was “widespread” , and by the way “widespread” is a subjective word. I am not an infectious disease expert nor have any hard data ( Meaning statistical evidence)on the mortality risk of young adults , and if the mortality risks have changed / worsened with these new variants of Sars-CoV2. My colleagues have seen many more young adults with severe Covid and dying because of it compared to earlier on in the pandemic , at least in my healthcare center. I have seen the CT scans of some of these young patients showing severe organizing pneumonia. Perhaps this is a blip or perhaps there truly is something significant going on. All I know is it’s not true young people with no co morbids are invincible from this disease , and seriously this disease is not influenza.
    The risk of Covid mortality in children is very small , but not zero.
    Example…
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext
    As I have written before in previous threads, I do understand the concerns of anti-vaxxers. I am actually skeptical of vaccinating children because of the extremely low risk of mortality , for now.
    Definitely the elderly with/without co morbids and young adults co morbids are recommended for Covid vaccination. And, in my PERSONAL opinion , for young adults with no co morbids(although we need more hard data). I have never agreed with mandatory Covid vaccinations or vaccination passports. This pandemic is shrouded with so much politics /geopolitics and charlatans from both sides of the anti-vaxxer vs pro-vaxx groups that sometimes people tend to fail to have rational discussions but resort to emotional diatribes. Ultimately each to decide for themselves whether they want or refuse these vaccines.
    Your intense hatred for old people is palpable.
    I just want to say, we all will become(if we don’t drop dead earlier) old one day.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  22. @Concerned citizen

    Hilarious to see these claims of “foreign sponsors” without a shred of evidence.

    Who were the most active critics of Sputnik? You and your liberal pro-Western friends. Working in alignment with the State Department.

    [MORE]

  23. @melanf

    then it is not a vaccine is it?

    last time i checked a vaccine meant that i am not able to get that disease, and believe me i have grown up in Norway where we are filled with poison vaccines from birth.
    So your newspeak is just making you sound retarded and brainwashed🤷‍♂️

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Triteleia Laxa
    , @Bill
  24. melanf says:
    @Per/Norway

    then it is not a vaccine is it?

    The vaccine that reduces the likelihood of getting sick by 4-5 times has a protective effectiveness of 80-90%. This is a high efficiency for the vaccine

  25. g2k says:

    Given that Italy’s Mote-Carlo, San Marino, one of the richest, most “civilized-European” places on earth bagged enough Sputnik in the spring to snuff out it’s second wave, and didn’t turn it’s nose up at it, you’ve thought it would be the prestige option for the Jean Jaques crowd. Maybe they should use that fact in pro-sputnik propaganda.

    theguardian.com/world/2021/may/19/we-booked-straight-away-first-covid-vaccine-tourists-arrive-in-san-marino

    • Replies: @g2k
  26. @Per/Norway

    What would you like to call an injection that you have before catching a disease, which increases your immunity to it substantially by stimulating antibody production?

  27. Managed to find some articles with some hard data about mortality and morbidity risks of young adults with Covid. Thought of sharing them here. Feel free to critique(methodology, interpretation). I myself dislike dry statistics, actually I prefer the biology of viruses more.
    https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(20)30338-4/fulltext
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2770542
    https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/512592

    And these, probably more supportive of NOT vaccinating the young:-
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393512030785
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02483-2

    I also wanted to say a few points:-
    1.) In terms of mortality, I personally think Covid is slightly worse than influenza but its overall mortality risks is certainly far far less than Sars virus and nipah virus
    https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2213-2600(20)30527-0/fulltext
    Even in this metric, there is a lot of controversy:-
    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3883
    Versus…
    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3883/rr
    Versus…
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85081-0
    2.) The problem with this pandemic is its capacity to overwhelm a country’s healthcare system. Perhaps, therein lies one reason for
    the “frontliners”healthcare workers’ ( on the ground) “perceived” increased mortality in even young patients with Covid.
    In my country this is indeed happening. My former colleagues now working in another hospital had to do CPR on Covid patients on the floor as the healthcare system is now overwhelmed. Non Covid wards have been repurposed for Covid patients and every day they are full with very ill Covid patients, including young ones. ICU beds are full and we have hundreds of ill patients waiting in ER because the bed capacity is overwhelmed. Doctors have to decide whom to ventilate and whom to “let go”. This is all true . I don’t need some mainstream CNN propaganda nonsense because I have seen it with my own eyes. And once icu is full , the young Covid who might not have died may actually have high risk of dying because of the overwhelmed healthcare. This is the real essence of this disease.

  28. @Erik Sieven

    Three people working at a BSL3 lab at the institute fell sick within a week of each other with severe symptoms that required hospitalization.”

    Sounds right. If I worked at a BSL3 lab, and I and two others colleagues, got ill with a mystery disease, I would seek hospitalisation.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
  29. @Anatoly Karlin

    The greatest sin of Sputnik is that it threatened profits of Western pharmaceuticals. As we all know, among corporate values profits are at the top, way above God or anything else. Hence massive propaganda campaign by bought and paid for “free” MSM and dirty machinations by pharmaceuticals themselves and all agencies in their pay, including pressure on Brazil. Not surprisingly, Brazil president who yielded to the US pressure is now under criminal investigation for overpaying for the vaccine Brazil purchased. It is only natural for a crook to follow the wishes of the US State Department. Nothing new there, medieval alchemists knew that like dissolves like.

  30. Bill says:
    @Beckow

    It seems like somebody got the young from birth to adulthood more or less intact and literate and all.

  31. Bill says:
    @Per/Norway

    last time i checked a vaccine meant that i am not able to get that disease

    Then the last time you checked was never.

  32. Passer by says:
    @Beckow

    Russia is not using MRNA vaccines. Plenty of old tech vaccines around, choose some of the older ones.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  33. A traditional vaccine is preferable to the mRNA vaccines pushed in America.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  34. @Passer by

    Adeno vector is not old tech.It has never been widely used before covid 19.

    ‘Old tech’ is whole viron vaccines which anecdotal evidence suggests have flopped.The Chinese vaccines based on this technology haven’t performed well anywhere.

    When the second wave hit most middle class Indians over 45 had had one shot of a vaccine.The vast majority of those who got astra zeneca had at most mild covid and hardly any hospitalizations.The ones who had one shot of covaxin an Indian whole viron vaccine had rates of hospitalization statistically no different from the unvaccinated.

    • Thanks: Triteleia Laxa
    • Replies: @Passer by
    , @BB753
  35. The virus itself provides 99,9999% immunity against any sort of infection. No vaccine does that.

    First, taking into account the low mortality, I can understand why anyone younger than 60 or so prefers the real thing to any mock immunization.

    Second, the persistent demands that those with near-perfect immunity still get vaccinated and wear muzzles is best evidence that we live in a simulation among NPCs. In a normal world, lots of people would see that Fauci and his collaborators are lying.

  36. Passer by says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Adeno vector was used for the Ebola, MERS and Sars Cov 1 vaccines. Its 40 year old technology. Yes, not very widely used, but better tested than MRNA vaccines.

  37. ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ says:

    The real question is why exactly Russians (and Ukrainians) are so anti-vax.

    Hints can be found in the results of international polls. A YouGov poll from January 2021 found that developing countries in general, the Anglosphere (except for the U.S.), Scandinavia, Spain and Italy were willing to take the COVID-19 vaccine, while France, Poland, and to a lesser extent Germany and the U.S. had much lower levels of support.

    An Ipsos poll from February 2021 found similar results: anti-vax sentiment was lowest in the developing world, somewhat higher in the Anglosphere, Spain, Italy and Korea, and highest in Russia (58% anti-vax), France (43%), South Africa (40%), Japan (36%), Germany (32%) and the U.S. (29%).

    A June 2020 survey by Nature found that the lowest levels of support for vaccination were in France, Poland and Russia.

    A November 2020 poll by Kantar Public found the same pattern: lowest levels of anti-vax in the developing world (India), Northern Europe (U.K., Netherlands) and Italy, highest levels of anti-vax in France, Germany and the U.S.

    And finally, a May 2021 Gallup poll, by far the best poll, covering 116 countries: the developing world (especially South Asia, Southeast Asia and Latin America) and Northern European/Anglo countries supported getting vaccinated at high levels, while swathes of Eastern Europe and some Middle Eastern/West African countries (Gabon, Jordan, Jamaica, Cameroon, Togo, Senegal) were strongly opposed. 13 out of the 20 least vaccine-accepting countries are former communist countries; compare Austria (62%) with Czechia (38%), or Finland (61%) with Estonia (50%). Not a single European ex-communist country has support for vaccination above 50%. However, the impoverished former Soviet Asian states of Uzbekistan (70%), Tajikistan (64%) and Georgia (56%) have high levels of support for vaccination.

    Thus, in general, it appears that developing countries (especially those in South Asia, Southeast Asia and Latin America) are willing to get vaccinated, while ex-communist European countries, as well as France, the U.S. and parts of West Africa, are not. From this we can hazard a few guesses:

    1. In ex-communist countries that are not deeply impoverished, communism and its aftermath appears to have caused the population to have low levels of trust in institutions and thus oppose vaccination at high levels (whereas in the deeply impoverished ex-communist states, lack of vaccination may lead to loss of farming hands and starvation, so despite low trust, the population is less willing to take risks; the exception is Kyrgyzstan, an economy heavily based on animal husbandry rather than farming). This situation is also hinted at by the phenomenon of communist boomers in Russia supporting anti-vax.
    2. Despite being Western countries, France and the U.S. have rather low levels of support for getting vaccinated. I suspect that this is due to high levels of neuroticism and low levels of agreeableness/conscientiousness in France leading to low levels of societal trust, and general suspicion of big government in the U.S., caused by similar factors (esp. low conscientiousness/institutional collectivism). In France, the yellow vest protests and anti-Macron sentiment have also likely eroded trust in the government. It should be noted that the Nature survey found a correlation between trust in government and vaccine acceptance (odds ratio 1.67)/vaccine recommendations (odds ratio 4.35). Also, Russia (and Eastern Europe in general) is similar in national personality to France, and thus this would increase anti-vax sentiment even without the communist legacy.
    Moreover, it is curious that France distrusts the vaccine so much while culturally similar Spain and Italy do not, especially as Italy apparently has a history of vaccine skepticism. This may be because in Spain, anti-vax may be associated with the Vox political party and thus far-right politics and the Francoist legacy (thus making most Spaniards reflexively pro-vax), while Italy was severely hit by the first wave of COVID-19 early on and thus has made Italians more willing to get vaccinated. Spain and Italy are also presently more politically stable than France and the U.S.
    Germany and Japan are mildly anti-vax, probably due to high neuroticism, but are also highly conscientious and thus not as anti-vax as France or Russia. Scandinavian countries are low in neuroticism and high in agreeableness/conscientiousness/institutional collectivism (and thus societal trust) and thus highly pro-vax. The U.K. and Australia are low in neuroticism and are governed by the right (and thus lower-trust conservatives there are more likely to get vaxxed), while the U.S. is probably somewhat higher in neuroticism and is governed by the left (and thus conservatives there are less likely to get vaxxed).
    3. Asian and Latin American countries are less anti-vax, possibly due to greater K-selection and thus conscientiousness/conformism, while Middle Eastern and especially African countries are more r-selected and thus are less conscientious/conformist and more anti-vax.

    I would also be interested in Anatoly conducting a poll of his readers on the COVID-19 vaccine (using SurveyMonkey, Google Forms or a similar service). I recommend asking three specific questions:
    1. When the COVID-19 vaccine becomes available to you, how likely are you to get it? (Already got at least one dose / Will get it / Will maybe get it, leaning yes / Will maybe get it, leaning no / Will not get it)
    2. Which COVID-19 vaccines do you trust? (Pfizer / Moderna / Johnson & Johnson / AstraZeneca / Sputnik V / COVIran Barakat (Iran) / Covaxin (India) / Sinovac / Sinopharm / CanSino / All of the above / None of the above)
    3. If you don’t trust particular vaccines, why do you distrust the vaccines in question? (Risk of side effects / Went through clinical trials too quickly / Not effective enough / Being used for geopolitical purposes without concern for safety / Other, please write)

    Note to Anatoly: I would greatly appreciate it if you could refrain in advance from republishing my comments as separate posts or reposting them anywhere outside this comments section. Thanks.

  38. @Reverend Goody

    A traditional vaccine is preferable to the mRNA vaccines pushed in America.

    Preferable to who? If you mean a person vaccinated, this is 100% correct. If you mean pharmaceuticals, this is 100% wrong. For them profit trumps reality, they don’t care if something happens to you because of their faulty product. Besides, no matter what happens, neither you nor your bereaved loved ones can sue: the US Congress made people unable to sue Pfizer and Moderna for consequences of using their “vaccines”. Tells you all you need to know.

  39. Beckow says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Not so fast, you write more generally than specifically strongly implying that all should vaccinate, young and old.

    Here is an example:

    the banal fact that many Russians (including in older age groups) would simply rather catch Corona than get vaccinated.

    One car read into it that you stress the older age group, or not. It was in parenthesis after all.

  40. @ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ

    Just to clarify, is posting a hyperlink to this comment (say, in next week’s Open Thread on this blog) OK?

  41. Beckow says:
    @Sinotibetan

    Calling people who are skeptical of the MRNA shots anti-vaxxers is an attempt to manipulate. I am not an anti-vaxxer in any shape or form. The MRNA shot is technically not a vaccine, it is either an experimental genetic treatment or a miracle that blocks the corona virus. We simply don’t know yet.

    We do know two facts:
    – corona is relatively harmless for young and healthy
    – MRNA shots have known side-effects (I listed them before) although only in a tiny percentage of cases.

    My general view is that neither Corona nor the available vaccines are that bad and that in retrospect the circus we are going through will seem way over-stated (by both sides).

    But I do wonder when people talk about “good for the society and do it for the elderly“.
    There are a lot of things that are good for the society and a lot of things that the old could do for the young – they in general don’t do it and justify everything with a form of “market says”, “too bad but that’s the way capitalism works”.

    The sudden demand for solidarity by the young is hypocritical and not well received. Is it hatred? I doubt it, that’s emotionalising the issue – but would you also call the selfish boomers and elderly asset hoarders and landlords who shifted most costs on future generations haters? Would you say they do it because they hate the young? It is very much the same thing, if one is hatred, then so would be the other one.

  42. @Triteleia Laxa

    when you don’t know that is the start of a pandemic Covid-19 is no mystery disease but just another respiratory infection.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  43. @Anatoly Karlin

    I’m convinced Concerned citizen is Robert Zubrin’s sock account.

  44. @Erik Sieven

    I know a lot of young-ish people who have had Covid-19. They are in their 20s and 30s. For most them, it was the worst infection they’ve ever had. Most would have gone to hospital if they didn’t know that it was Covid.

  45. ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Sure, that’s fine. What do you think of the vaccine reader poll idea?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  46. Statistics comparing mortality rates with or without vaccination may be inaccurate (i.e. not comparable) because AFAIK they don’t specify how the cases were tested/diagnosed or whether they received effective early treatment, and one cannot assume these parameters have been uniform throughout the world. Some experts are claiming the cycle threshold of the rtPCR tests was lowered after vaccines were administered in order to make the efficacy appear greater that it really is.

    Other experts claim that early treatment has been denied and information and access have been suppressed, thus causing unnecessary hospitalizations and deaths, and enabling the Emergency Use Authorization of vaccines that otherwise might not have been granted.

    Once patients were hospitalized with severe symptoms, varied treatment methods were given that often failed to utilize known therapies effectively used in China and Cuba, for example, that could have reduced mortality.

    The prior drastic curtailment of funding for health care in some countries, especially in India, greatly contributed to the lack of proper care given to many patients, which in no small measure accounts for high mortality rates.

    Uncertainty regarding actual cause of death, based on some doctors’ testimony about incentives and/or coercion, may be further reason to render these stats meaningless.

    The obviously coordinated media messaging narratives including the necessity of vaccination to persons of all ages 12+, drummed-in 24/7 like war propaganda and with dissenting testimony censored across the MSM incl. social media, make the whole vaccination scenario questionable and suspicious to someone like myself who makes an effort to read alternative media.

  47. utu says:

    Yesterday the Levada Center released a new poll on vaccines that tends to confirm my contention that Russia’s tawdry pace of vaccinations is not a result of supply constraints, but the banal fact that many Russians (including in older age groups) would simply rather catch Corona than get vaccinated.

    According to Levada Center graph in December 2020 38% of Russians wanted to be vaccinated. By the end of April 2021 less than 3.7% got two doses of vaccine. See:

    https://gogov.ru/articles/covid-v-stats

    Only 1/10th of those who wanted to get vaccinated in December 2020 did get vaccinated by the end of March 2021. . What did happen to the 9/10th who wanted to be vaccinated but who did not get vaccinated? They had three months to do it. What was holding them back? Answer: All vaccine supplied was used.

    The Levada Center graph shows that the vaccination enthusiasm is waning in 2021 and reaches 25% in June. But still every day of 2021 the enthusiasm for vaccination was no less than 25%, so why less than 12% got vaccinated till the end of June 2021. Why did it take six month to get 12% vaccinated while the demand was at least twice as high during that period?

    By the mid March 2021 daily vaccination rate in Russia reaches its plateau that oscillates between 130k to 200k per day (the first dose vaccinations – blue line at gogov.ru/articles/covid-v-stats).

    Fact: Less than 50% of those who wanted to be vaccinated were vaccinated in the first six months of vaccination campaign in Russia in 2021.

    By the end of May 33 million double-dose kits of vaccine were produced according to official utterances out of which 15 million were exported. What remained for the domestic use was enough to vaccinate 12.5% of population. What should we conclude? That Kremlin had no intention of vaccinating more than about 12.5%? It could vaccinate more if it reneged of obligations for foreign importers. Did Kremlin take into account that enthusiasm for vaccination would be 12.5% only? They could not! Polls were showing that more than 25% wanted to be vaccinated and furthermore in official pronouncement it was stated that 60% were to be vaccinated by fall 2021.

    So what did happen? First it was the realization that early estimates of production capacity were overestimated by 10-15 fold. The estimates were already rolled back from 30 million to 2 million by the end of 2020 in October 2020 statements (even by Putin). Allegedly the 2 million was produced by the end of December 2020 however in December Sputnik V vaccines were flown from South Korea in three flights to Moscow (within three days) by Asiana airlines.

    Is it possible that Kremlin realizing that it would not be able to meet the domestic demand and its own promises and obligations to foreign countries decided to start campaign of dissuasion? Would that explain why the enthusiasm for vaccination was dropping from 38% in December 2020 to 25% in June 2021? Was anti-vaxxing disinformation ramped up? Was bad mouthing of western vaccines amplified?

    How to explain that Kremlin was able to create a mirage of vaccine surplus in Russia? Seemingly empty vaccination stations in public places and so on? What if the number of phone calls to seniors citizens nudging them to get vaccinated was reduced? What about some negative whispering fear-mongering campaign? Would that be beneath Kremlin?

    An example from the US: In the US when Republicans wanted to dissuade poorer mostly back electorate from voting on the election day a whispering campaign that people with outstanding warrants would be arrested is launched. Also more police officers are deployed on the streets around the polling stations. And in extreme cases electricity is locally cut or a hydrant is exploded to flood the street preventing commuting to a polling station. There are many tricks in the bag. I have no reason to believe that Kremlin does not have its own bag full of tricks.

    But it seems that things are getting better. It could be that Kremlin decided to gyp foreign exported and increase domestic supply. It seems that push for vaccination from dissuasion went to effective persuasion. In the end of June 2021 daily vaccinations began to rapidly increase from 200k per day to over 500k per day. Now many places in Russia admit to vaccine shortages.

    So what about the production. According to Denis Manturov in late June 2021 Russia produced 36.7 million doses so far. Though in mid May it was said that 33 million was produced. This means than less than 4 million was produced in 6 weeks. And the same Manturov in the same statement promises that in July: “Up to 37 million doses could be produced in July alone, he said: 30 million in Russia and 5 to 6 million abroad. ” Let’s hope he is right this time.

    Here are few excerpts about production and shortages:

    Demand Finally Outstrips Supply in Russia’s Vaccination Race (June 29)
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/06/29/demand-finally-outstrips-supply-in-russias-vaccination-race-a74371

    Vaccine production:

    Pharmaceutical company R-Pharm — touted as a possible game-changer for the mass production of Sputnik V — started growing cells to produce the vaccine last November, and billionaire owner Aleksei Repik previously told The Moscow Times it would aim to produce 10 million doses a month.

    But the company has yet to release a single batch of the vaccine into circulation, data from a Health Ministry database which logs individual medicine series approved for distribution shows.

    Generium — another of the seven companies approved to produce the jab domestically, and which said it could produce 5-8 million doses a month at full capacity — has not released a batch of vaccines since mid-March.

    Shortages are also being complicated by Russians’ views of the four coronavirus jabs approved for use in the country. Only the flagship Sputnik V has published late-stage Phase 3 clinical trial results and has been the most heavily promoted both at home and abroad.

    Supply shortage:

    The sudden spike in demand has left vaccination centers outside the main cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg understocked. Alongside Sochi and the surrounding Krasnodar region, local media have reported shortages in Yekaterinburg, Novosibirsk, Khabarovsk, Bashkiria and Udmurtia, among others.

    “We were receiving an average of 3,000 doses per week. But we have the capacity to deliver 7,000 vaccinations per day — so we could use up a week’s supply in half a day,” Tomsk Governor Sergey Zhvachkin said of Russians’ newfound desire to get vaccinated

    Finally why in Russia opinions on vaccines are not significantly age depended? I think because Russia is still not age segregated society. Multiple generations live together. There is not that many retirement communities. There is no lobby for retirees that would bombard them with information that is needed for them about making right health and money decision. All what they have is the old Soviet/Russian bureaucracy they did not like and did not trust when they were younger and they found not evidence or reason to change this sentiment since.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  48. @ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ

    Thx.

    Germany and Japan are mildly anti-vax
    3. Asian and Latin American countries are less anti-vax

    Japan and PRC are both ~15% fully vaccinated. Quite lower than Germany’s.
    https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus#coronavirus-country-profiles

    Anecdotally, PRC is mildly anti-vax due to low no. of cases and unpleasant short-term side effects of Sinovac (LT side effects not a major concern)

    1. When the COVID-19 vaccine becomes available to you, how likely are you to get it?

    As of late 2020: Will not get it (I’m low risk profile, but family has been seriously impacted)

    Currently: Based on helpful commentors on this board, Will maybe get it, leaning no

    2. Which COVID-19 vaccines do you trust?

    Sputnik V / Sinovac (in that order) but not available where I am.

    3. If you don’t trust particular vaccines, why do you distrust the vaccines in question?

    Pfizer / Moderna / Johnson & Johnson: Risk of side effects / Went through clinical trials too quickly / Being used for geopolitical purposes without concern for safety

    AstraZeneca: material no. of deaths recorded in TW

    In general I’m concerned about long-term side effects, especially pertaining to fertility, of both infection and vaccines (ex. Sputnik/Sinovac)

  49. @Sinotibetan

    Thx. I find the info on past few threads on Delta to be reliable, that it is at least not lower in IFR than previous strains.

    But what do we know (either anecdotally or statistically) about infection rate and transmission mode? So far as I’m concerned it still almost entirely transmits indoor and through droplets. So masking around crowds, social distancing still works.

    Probability of transmission through aerosol is very low (cannot be prevented by masking). Through surfaces further lower.

    Other commentors have asserted that without vaccination, over time the probability of infection converges to 1. But surely one has some control over the expected time. With more time one can more accurately assess the safety of vaccines.

  50. @ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ

    I don’t think there’s much point because:

    (1) What my readers believe seems clear enough from the comments. I also asked the first question of my Twitter readers some time ago:

    Actually, I expect responses here to be similar.

    (2) The topic doesn’t even interest me all that much (see below) and the only reason I posted again about it because I consider this poll highly relevant and important to understanding why vaccination in Russia was slow.

  51. @utu

    What was holding them back? Answer: All vaccine supplied was used.

    Addressed here for benefit of readers in the article and comments (see also melanf’s), won’t go over it again: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/

    But still every day of 2021 the enthusiasm for vaccination was no less than 25%, so why less than 12% got vaccinated till the end of June 2021. Why did it take six month to get 12% vaccinated while the demand was at least twice as high during that period?

    Polls were showing that more than 25% wanted to be vaccinated and furthermore in official pronouncement it was stated that 60% were to be vaccinated by fall 2021.

    I have a (young) friend from the Russian Far East who came to Moscow recently, he is not anti-vaxxer like his gf and would have gotten it but was too lazy to do so (and is now bummed about it as can’t visit restaurants while here). Percentage saying they will get vaccinated =/= actual number of people who will get vaccinated soon, absent a palpable sense of emergency in the air.

    Was anti-vaxxing disinformation ramped up? Was bad mouthing of western vaccines amplified?

    How to explain that Kremlin was able to create a mirage of vaccine surplus in Russia? Seemingly empty vaccination stations in public places and so on? What if the number of phone calls to seniors citizens nudging them to get vaccinated was reduced? What about some negative whispering fear-mongering campaign? Would that be beneath Kremlin?

    Conspiracy drivel. I walked past some of the vaccination stations myself at various points in the past few months, they were inevitable empty or near empty. For instance, here is the one at GUM around June 8 or June 9, this is the most central department store in Russia, something like Moscow’s Harrods, right opposite the Kremlin.

    Do you see a queue there?

    There are aggressive bands of anti-vaxxers on Telegram channels who organize targeted harassment attacks against people who promote them. They have well known conspiracy “careers” even before Corona. They don’t need GRU or FSB support to do what they do LMAO, this is Russiagate tier inanity.

    Re-Korea.

    Addressed by FB (who might be a nut, but not on this particular issue) here: https://www.unz.com/ishamir/putin-talks-to-the-nation/#comment-4760876

    But it seems that things are getting better. It could be that Kremlin decided to gyp foreign exported and increase domestic supply. It seems that push for vaccination from dissuasion went to effective persuasion. In the end of June 2021 daily vaccinations began to rapidly increase from 200k per day to over 500k per day.

    Or, alternatively, people say that the third wave is in full swing, their friends are ending up at the ER again, and vaccination (amongst vaxxers) has gone from “sometime” to “need to do it now.”

    Supporting this interpretation is the fact that there is zero difference in the increase in vaccination tempo between regions that introduced various forms of obligatory vaccination, and those that didn’t: https://www.facebook.com/alexx.dragan/posts/4222545907804553

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @216
  52. @Beckow

    “We don’t know the extent of MRNA vaccines secondary effects. Apparently they can cause neurological problems, heart muscle inflammation, fertility issues and a further decrease of IQ. It may be worth to wait, especially for the young and healthy.”

    Like GMO agriculture – it is the even longer term horizon that is the issue. Messing with genetic material is never going to be all roses – no matter what these people are selling. These same type of people say decades later “oh we had no idea weed killers could be so detrimental”. Messing with the natural order has consequences. With mRNA treatments – half the story hasn’t even been told yet.

    • Agree: RoatanBill
    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  53. Bashibuzuk says:

    Microbiologist, specialist in the field of molecular biology and pathogenic microorganisms, Doctor of Biological Sciences, Head of the Department of Microbiology, Virology and Immunology at Sechenov University, Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Editor-in-Chief of the journal “Microbiology, Epidemiology and Immunobiology”, Deputy Chairman of the All-Russian Scientific and Practical Society of Microbiologists, Epidemiologists and parasitologists Vitaly Zverev said that revaccination every six months is a very dubious experiment:

    [MORE]

    “We need to tell people and explain. If there are complications, explain why. At first they say that the vaccine is valid for two years, and then they say that in six months it is necessary to revaccinate. Sorry. Either one or the other. Is it possible to revaccinate with this vaccine in six months?” Ask the experts. Many will tell you that this is a very dubious experiment. Because you, along with the coronavirus protein, are injecting an adenovirus, to which an immune response is also formed. And when the second and third time when you will be injected, what will happen? Nothing. Vaccine developers should to show that not only a humoral response is present – antibodies, which, it turns out, disappear after six months. This means that there is no cellular immunity if a vaccine is to be administered in six months. And what kind of vaccine is that that needs to be administered every six months? So the vaccine does not work already ? ” – told the academician “Pravda.ru”.

    He noted that it is not necessary to vaccinate those who have been ill at all, since their immunity is more persistent and long-term. And the vaccine will not give the immunity that is formed after an illness. The presence of antibodies does not mean anything. If a person is ill, but the antibodies have already disappeared, the body will still “remember” the disease and cope with it. The academician told MK the following: “People who have already received the vaccine, or even more so have been ill, do not need to do anything. Everyone seems to have forgotten the name of this virus. SARS is in the first place in its name. Its epidemic was in 2003. Immunity against this virus is still preserved in those who have been ill and survived after SARS. That is, 17 years have passed! Most likely, with the new coronavirus there will be the same long-term immunity, because they are very similar in antigenic structure.

    Therefore, I think that those who have been ill have immunity, and it is they who basically create that valuable collective immunity that everyone is talking about. Moreover, we are talking about both seriously ill and those who suffered from COVID-19 in a mild form. There is not a single vaccine that would give a stronger and longer lasting immunity than the transferred disease. I can refer to my own experience. I got sick with coronavirus, and after about a year, antibodies in my blood were no longer detected. But after I had to take care of the “covid” patient, I did not get infected, but after checking the antibodies, I made sure that they “grew” again 7 (!) Times. If all those who had recovered were re-infected, we would already have millions, not thousands of new patients. But the same does not happen. So I urge you to protect those who have been ill with COVID-19. This is our gold fund. ”

    In an interview with Radio Sputnik, Zverev emphasized that it is necessary to “leave alone” those who have been ill and the children. There is evidence that more than 70% of children have antibodies, although outwardly they did not get sick at all. The scientist noted that it is necessary to fight covid using medical methods, not political ones. And he doesn’t like much about the actions of the authorities and the WHO. “Now politics and business interfere in everything. These are commercial projects. But this money is made on people! And no one will forgive if this money is made on blood,” Zverev said. The academician called for a calm approach to the research of vaccines and disease. Moreover, such vaccines have not been used before and no one knows their long-term consequences. Long-term safety trials of anticoid vaccines are needed.

    In Moscow alone, supposedly 40% of the population might have had the virus already. That’s what has been told once by Sobyanin (AKA the Mighty Mansi Sachem). If we add those around 20% that got or will get vaccinated in Moskvabad, we should reach the 60% herd-immunity level.

    If Zverev is right it should be enough to stop this whole circus.

    And if not, then the vaccines are not working.

    If not, then why taking the jab ?

    • Replies: @utu
  54. Bashibuzuk says:
    @showmethereal

    mRNA is a transient form of storage of genetic information only used to produce proteins before being degraded. That is if it’s not specifically synthesized to effect RNA interference. But even in the case of RNAi the effects are temporary.

    Problems with the mRNA vaccines, if any, would be due to either the structure and function of the spike protein or the liposome formulations. mRNA presence in our cells do not entail a long term genetic modification, rather a short term proteomic expression modulation.

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  55. BB753 says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Judging by the situation in China, whole viron vaccines have been successful. Why didn’t Russia buy the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines? And, for that matter, no Western country either? I’d rather take those than fancy untested MRNA or vector jabs!
    If you trust MRNA so-called vaccines, you should listen to this interview with Dr. Malone, the scientist who actually developed MRNA tech. He’s sceptical Moderna, Pfizer vaccines are safe, let alone work.
    https://rokfin.com/stream/6901/Dr-Robert-Malone-Interview--Inventor-Of-mRNA-Technology-Censored-For-Speaking-Out-On-Vaccine-Risks

    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    , @utu
    , @utu
  56. utu says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think that Vitaly Zverev is correct though the translation is not very good.

    In the beginning when vaccinations began and there were shortages of vaccine (which was the case in all countries except Russia according to Kremlin and Karlin) I was wondering why not vaccinate only those who did not go through infection.

    It is true that antibodies vanish with time but immunity may still remain.

    https://www.clinicbarcelona.org/en/news/can-you-be-protected-against-covid-19-without-antibodies
    Detecting immunity: serological versus cellular tests

    Serological tests measure antibody-mediated immunity. Negative results in these tests are often understood as an absence of infection or a loss of immunity. But it may also be because in the first days of the infection, not enough antibodies have yet been generated to be detected by the test, or the levels have already descended once the infection has passed. A drop in antibodies does not mean that immunity has been lost. Cell-mediated immunity (T lymphocytes) can protect us from the virus even when there are low levels of antibodies.

    Talking about revaccination every six months or so is premature and even irresponsible.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  57. @BB753

    He’s sceptical Moderna, Pfizer vaccines are safe, let alone work.

    I agree with the guy. I work with in vitro produced mRNAs for 35+ years, and I do not believe that mRNA vaccines are effective (if they contain what the companies claim) or safe (if they contain something else).

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  58. utu says:
    @BB753

    Why didn’t Russia buy the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines?

    Apparently China does not have surplus of vaccines.

    Iran Official Blames Chinese, Russian Covid Vaccine Firms For Shortages (07 Jun 2021)
    https://iranintl.com/en/iran-in-brief/iran-official-blames-chinese-russian-covid-vaccine-firms-shortages

    Alireza Naji, head of the Virology Research Center and member of Covid Scientific Committee told the government Iran Daily that part of the shortage is due to lack of delivery from Chinese and Russian companies that produce Sinopharm and Sputnik vaccines. Naji accused these companies of not honoring their commitments.

    Less than 2% fully vaccinated (4.9% one dose) in Iran as of June 29. OTOH China administered 1.3 billion doses by July 4.

    • Thanks: BB753
  59. Bashibuzuk says:
    @utu

    Talking about revaccination every six months or so is premature and even irresponsible.

    And so is talking about vaccinating kids who are mainly asymptomatic and would actually develop a better immunity if they got infected with the virus.

    Also my last point in the comment is important: if Zverev is right and we really do develop a long-term immunity (and I do not claim we do), then those who got sick and those who got vaccinated should be counted together to see whether we are getting close to herd immunity. Once we get there, all this masking, lockdown and vaxxing / antivaxxing madness should stop. If not, and we are somewhat put under the impression that herd immunity is impossible to attain because vaccines are not effective enough, then this madness should also stop because if we cannot stop the virus, then we just need to accept it and live with this fact without falling into social paranoid psychological attitudes.

    • Replies: @utu
  60. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AnonfromTN

    How stable is mRNA into the cells? Especially viral mRNA encoding a single ORF ?

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  61. utu says:
    @BB753

    Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’
    https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic/fact-check-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP

    Now, who is Robert Malone? According to his wife ” Early in 1988, he foresaw the future of the use of mRNA for vaccination. ” But he was outmaneuvered, denied credit and befits from the idea.

    “So, imagine how disheartening it is over the course of the last year, to see others take credit for his work in the lay press. ”

    It was 20-30 years ago. He did not work in the field since. But the resentment he felt was cultivated at least by his wife:

    “We literally have nothing to lose in this. Robert never received the money that Vical owed him. Heck, they never even admitted to owing him anything but a silver dollar. They never licensed his work from the Salk. The Salk dropped the patent applications without telling him. Vical threatened Robert with “cease and desist” letters, if he continued working in the field commercially or if he helped a commercial company with these technologies. We never were able to capture a single NIH or government grant for this work. This all happened thirty years ago, it is a terrible but old story. One that Robert likes to forget. ”

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/history-how-mrna-vaccines-were-discovered-jill-glasspool-malone-phd

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  62. utu says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    What about the children? The eternal question.

    “Think of the children” (also “What about the children?”) is a cliché that evolved into a rhetorical tactic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

    What is the actual objective of vaccinations? We want to reach the so called herd immunity level, right? To stop the epidemic and we want to reduce mortality.

    We can do it by (A) indiscriminate vaccination of randomly selected people including children or by (B) vaccinating from the oldest (most vulnerable) to the youngest or (C) from the super spreaders to those with the least number of social contacts. (C) is better than (A) because it minimizes the growth of infection rate at every step.

    The strategy (B) has the fastest descent of mortality. At each step mortality is minimal. It can’t be lower with a fixed number of vaccine doses administered. At some point before you reach the children the mortality will be practically zero if vaccines were indeed 95% effective or more for the oldest segment. This may happen long before the herd immunity is reached.

    But if not all of the most vulnerable are vaccinated and if the vaccine effectiveness is lower than 95% then vaccinating children among whom there are many potential super spreaders makes sense.

    Each scenario taking into account facts on the ground that keep changing can be modeled and some adaptive scheduler could be derived that would point to who should be vaccinated next according to his location, circumstances health and age to minimize the growths of infection rate and mortality. But we do not live in a techno-totalitarian system and thus people have to be incentivized and implored to get vaccinated and then if you can convince parents to let their children get vaccinated it is better to get them vaccinated as they can pose a threat to they yet unvaccinated grand parents.

    So from the epidemiological perspective vaccinating children rather than waiting for them to be infected is better. This also has a pedagogic value for moral development that children are taught that they are a part of greater community and their actions or inactions have detrimental effects or beneficial consequences to others. So, especially the children of libertarian parents should have a mandatory vaccination with the thickest gauge needle possible to teach them the idea of sacrifice.

  63. @Bashibuzuk

    Unprotected mRNAs survive minutes in the cytoplasm because of high RNase activity there. Our mRNAs are made in the nucleus and coated with specific proteins there to survive longer, minutes to hours. mRNA injected into the cell (via lipid carrier, if you believe “vaccine” manufacturers) won’t have this protection, and therefore will be readily destroyed. mRNA can be made more stable by chemical modifications. But the problem is, chemically modified mRNA is useless for protein production: ribosomes don’t work with it. That is why I am convinced that either Pfizer and Moderna “vaccines” are profit-making fraud, or both companies lie about the composition of the “vaccines” they supply. These possibilities are not mutually exclusive. US Congress law that makes it impossible for you to sue them and aggressive marketing strategy with lies about all competing vaccines are compatible with both possibilities and their combination.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  64. @melanf

    The best vaccines reduce the probability of getting sick by 5-10 times (in the case of the delta strain of Covid).

    With respect, we all do our best to make sense of what is happening in the world using whatever information we can obtain.

    However, I get the impression that a dogmatic faith in the “science of vaccines” is prejudicing many people’s critical faculties. Call something a “vaccine” and it magically takes on the miraculous benevolent properties that we assume should apply to a “vaccine”.

    Maybe this faith is warranted for the Russian vaccines.
    I certainly hope so, for the Russians’ sake.

    The reality for the Western “vaccines” is not so rosy. For example, in the case of the “deadly Delta variant”, we already have compelling evidence that Western Corona Chan “vaccines” make you more likely to catch the “Delta” strain, and far more likely to die from it.

    Corona Chan “Delta Variant” Mortality 8 Times Higher in Vaccinated Than Unvaccinated
    https://vaccines.news/2021-06-29-mortality-delta-variant-eight-times-higher-vaccinated.html
    https://gnews.org/1357351/

    Corona Chan “Delta Variant” Caused and Spread By “Vaccines” – 62% of Corona Chan Deaths are “Vaccinated”
    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-01-report-majority-now-dying-with-covid-are-vaccinated.html

    There’s also horrifying data on the effects of the Corona Chan “vaccines” on pregnant women – yet Western governments seem determined to keep pushing them to bend over and take the kill shot.

    Corona Chan “Vaccines” Cause 82% Spontaneous Abortions in First & Second Trimester Pregnancies
    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-01-depopulation-alert-shocking-new-study-reveals-covid-vaccine-terminates-4-out-of-5-pregnancies-via-spontaneous-abortions.html

    Wishful thinking isn’t much help after the funeral.

    • Replies: @utu
  65. @Sinotibetan

    Vaccine related thrombocytopenia with thrombosis was identified in trials of these types of vaccines, and was initially known as Vaccine Related thrombosis with thrombocytopenis (VRTT) but that was considered bad for marketing, so out it went. Both the adenovirus and the mRNA ‘vaccines’ have had more adverse and dangerous reactions than any other vaccines in history, by at least two orders of magnitude, but the totalitarian ‘Free World’ information system has suppressed all news of the debacle. Something bad, bad and sinister is afoot.

    • Agree: Ultrafart the Brave
  66. @utu

    The only ‘pedagogic’ value will be in instructing the children to unquestioningly obey BigPharma and their stooges, and learn to live with yearly boosters of gene therapy injections, when a natural infection confers better, long-term, immunity. This is a new low for elite paederasty. ‘Suffer the little children..’ eh, troll.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
  67. utu says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    Have you ever tried to find out what is behind claims on sites like naturalness.com or vaccine.news? Every time I looked at some eyebrow raising claim promoted by them I found it was false. For example the alleged 6 or 8 fold higher mortality among the vaccinated. I looked into it and the original UK gov data. The methodology is flawed because the two samples are not normalized by the infection rate and by the age profile of each sample. In UK the vaccinated cohort is much older than the unvaccinated. So if somebody suffers form a breakthrough infection among the vaccinated he belongs to a different much more vulnerable category than somebody from the unvaccinated group.

    Fact Check-Claim that vaccinated people are six times more likely to die from the Delta variant than those who are unvaccinated is misleading
    https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccinated/fact-check-claim-that-vaccinated-people-are-six-times-more-likely-to-die-from-the-delta-variant-than-those-who-are-unvaccinated-is-misleading-idUSL2N2OD2CJ

    Referring to data compiled by Public Health England (PHE) in a technical briefing released on June 18 regarding the SARS-CoV-2 variants (here), the authors of the blogs make several calculations.

    On page 12 of the briefing, it shows that 26 people have died since February 1 after testing positive for the Delta variant of the virus, having also been fully vaccinated for more than two weeks. In total, 4,087 tested positive more than two weeks after their second dose. Meanwhile, 35,521 people who were unvaccinated tested positive for the Delta variant and 34 people died.

    The authors then divide the number of deaths by the total number of people who tested positive for the Delta variant and found the rate of death to be 0.000957 for unvaccinated individuals and 0.00636 for those who have been inoculated.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Ultrafart the Brave
  68. @utu

    The filthy BigPharma troll now viciously slanders his betters. How low can this thug descend?

    • Agree: RoatanBill
  69. @utu

    What is the actual objective of vaccinations? We want to reach the so called herd immunity level, right? To stop the epidemic and we want to reduce mortality.

    Thanks for a well considered analysis of some possible vaccination strategies for Corona Chan.

    I do believe there are a couple of flaws in the proposed strategies, however.

    [MORE]

    First and foremost, herd immunity requires a threshold level of collective immunity across the population. Historically, this has been accomplished through the natural immunity conferred by people catching and then recovering from a bug.

    Now we have a new paradigm being pushed by the WHO, wherein herd immunity is defined as a vaccination outcome, and natural immunity is quite literally ignored.

    So FWIW, let’s just accept that new definition of herd immunity now specified by the WHO.

    But a problem remains – in order for vaccines to accomplish the herd immunity that the WHO now quarantines from naturally acquired immunity, the vaccines must actually induce immunity in the vaccinated.

    But the Western Corona Chan “vaccines” don’t produce immunity to Corona Chan! The American CDC and all the Western Corona Chan “vaccine” manufacturers freely admit that their “vaccines” neither stop the infection or spread of Corona Chan.

    So the theory of herd immunity achieved through Corona Chan “vaccines” is a fiction, completely disconnected from reality.

    If herd immunity is achieved, it will be due to the natural immunity of people catching and recovering from Corona Chan despite the Corona Chan “vaccines”, not because of them.

    Maybe the Russian vaccines are different – perhaps they do confer immunity to Corona Chan. Perhaps they also will successfully avoid the issue of ADE – that remains to be seen.

    But for the Western lemmings, the whole Corona Chan “vaccination” saga is a rolling disaster still unfolding before our eyes.

    We can do it by (A) indiscriminate vaccination of randomly selected people including children or by (B) vaccinating from the oldest (most vulnerable) to the youngest or (C) from the super spreaders to those with the least number of social contacts. (C) is better than (A) because it minimizes the growth of infection rate at every step. At each step mortality is minimal.

    Someone forget to tell the Israelis & Norwegians & everyone else about this “minimal mortality”.

    Vaccines are more dangerous than Corona Chan

    https://anti-empire.com/norways-health-authority-says-further-use-of-astrazeneca-riskier-than-covid-recommends-pulling-vaccine-permanently/

    https://www.unz.com/gatzmon/the-israeli-people-committees-april-report-on-the-lethal-impact-of-vaccinations/

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/experimental-vaccine-death-rate-for-israels-elderly-40-times-higher-than-covid-19-deaths-researchers

    https://freenations.net/record-vaccine-deaths-risk-greater-than-covid-governments-manipulate-data-illegal-tracking-of-vaccinated-illegal-propaganda-covid-fascists-revealed/

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-02-family-doctor-extreme-side-effects-moderna-jab.html

    That’s 40 times more likely to die from Corona Chan “vaccines” than from Corona Chan itself if you are old, and 260 times more if you are young.

    Sounds a bit like shooting the horse in the head to save it from a head cold.

    Even the American FDA’s and CDC’s own data doesn’t seem to support the theory of “minimum mortality”.

    American VAERS Corona Chan “Vaccines” – Adverse Events and Deaths

    American FDA & CDC Data – Adverse Events and Deaths For All Vaccines

    At some point before you reach the children the mortality will be practically zero if vaccines were indeed 95% effective or more for the oldest segment.

    The “vaccines” are claimed to be >90% effective, but that is just a mathematical white lie – they’re using “relative efficiacy” instead of “absolute efficiacy” which is less than 1%.

    As already pointed out, contrary to the claims being made for these experimental “vaccines”, the actual results are showing that not only do they not confer immunity nor do they stop you from catching or spreading Corona Chan, they actually increase your chance of dying compared to an unvaccinated person.

    Meanwhile, alternative remedies such as Ivermectin actually do stop people from catching Corona Chan, and quickly cure them if they have already become infected.

    Corona Chan – Ivermectin Studies
    https://c19ivermectin.com/

    While theorising vaccination strategies for Corona Chan is all well and good, excuse me if I decline participation in the strategic implementation.

    People like Dr. Ryan Cole provide rather more sensible advice on dealing with Corona Chan.

    Dr. Ryan Cole Talks About Covid-19, Ivermectin, & The Importance Of Vitamin D

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/06/no_author/talk-about-covid-19-mrna-bioweapon-ivermectin-the-importance-of-vitamin-d-dr-ryan-cole/


    Dr. Ryan Cole Speaks on the Corona Chan Virus

    https://rumble.com/embed/vgajwv/

    https://sp.rmbl.ws/s8/2/T/3/j/5/T3j5b.caa.mp4

    • Thanks: BB753
    • Replies: @utu
  70. utu says:
    @utu

    The mistake (perhaps intentional) is not different than in the claims based on Hungarian data that Sputnik is 7x-32x safer and more effective than other vaccines. As reiner Tor pointed out several times age profiles among vaccinated in Hungary were different for different vaccines. Unfortunately even the official Sputnik V twitter account was circulating this self-serving false news.

    Why were they doing it? They are not stupid like the readers of natural news. Was it a compensating for the fact that scaling up of vaccine production encounters great difficulties in Russia while Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZenca were successfully being delivered to tens of millions of people in the world. More doses were administered in 2 days in the world than what for Russia was taking six months?

    But more important issue is whether that kind of propaganda of badmouthing foreign vaccines that they are not safe backfired in Russia by contributed to growing anti-vaxx sentiments? Backfired from the point of view of ordinary Russians who would act against their interests but possibly benefitted Kremlin which wanted to keep the appearance of vaccine abundance.

    • Replies: @melanf
  71. @utu

    So if somebody suffers form a breakthrough infection among the vaccinated he belongs to a different much more vulnerable category than somebody from the unvaccinated group.

    It’s curious that this new term, “breakthrough infection”, has been so readily adopted into the mainstream vernacular.

    It sets the stage for public acceptance of naughty “Corona Chan variants” popping up out of nowhere and “breaking through” the fictitious protection afforded by the last Corona Chan “vaccine” – and justifying coercion to take the next one, the “booster shot”.

    The reality, of course, is that “breakthrough infections” aren’t actually “breaking through” anything, because as the American CDC and all the Corona Chan “vaccine” manufacturers freely admit, their “vaccines” don’t confer immunity at all – they neither stop anyone from catching Corona Chan nor from spreading it to others.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  72. utu says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    First and foremost, herd immunity requires a threshold level of collective immunity across the population. Historically, this has been accomplished through the natural immunity conferred by people catching and then recovering from a bug.

    You got it all wrong. It was about cattle and about lockdowns. Sick cattle used to be killed but what if they were put on a lockdown and then reintroduced back into the herd.

    Kansas veterinarian George Potter realised that this was the wrong approach. Writing with Adolph Eichhorn in 1916 in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, he envisioned “herd immunity”. As he wrote in 1918, “Abortion disease may be likened to a fire, which, if new fuel is not constantly added, soon dies down. Herd immunity is developed, therefore, by retaining the immune cows, raising the calves, and avoiding the introduction of foreign cattle.”

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362031924-3/fulltext

    So from the very beginning when the concept of herd immunity was formulated it was about interventions and control by humans. There was nothing natural about it. The objective was to maximize survival in short term and reduce epidemics in long term. And then as vaccines were being developed it was about vaccines. How many people need to be vaccinated and so on.

    I skipped the rest because, sorry most of your links are pure junk. Try to stop reading this junk.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  73. melanf says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Three obvious factors that determined the low (until recently) rates of vaccination can be easily named

    1)vaccination (until recently) gave absolutely no advantages (people without vaccination could go anywhere, travel, not wear a mask…)

    2) Lack of censorship on the Internet (unlike in America/Europe). In this case, it is evil

    3)Most (based on previous experience) were confident that the epidemic would end in the summer

  74. melanf says:
    @utu

    But more important issue is whether that kind of propaganda of badmouthing foreign vaccines that they are not safe backfired in Russia

    This is nonsense. there was no such propaganda (at the state level). But such propaganda was in Europe/America when the scandal with blood clots from AstroZeneka was inflated

    • Agree: Ultrafart the Brave
    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
    , @utu
  75. Levtraro says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    You are wrong. Viral and vaccine mRNA may become integrated in the DNA by retro-transcription. In fact, it has been shown that SARS-CoV-2 RNA integrates into human cells’ DNA in vitro and then it is expressed:

    https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2105968118

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  76. Yevardian says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I notice you haven’t taken a firm opinion either way regarding our benevolent overlord’s extremely powerful thoughts on Covid: Origins, are you simply in the mind of ‘wait and see?’

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  77. Bashibuzuk says:
    @utu

    But if not all of the most vulnerable are vaccinated and if the vaccine effectiveness is lower than 95% then vaccinating children among whom there are many potential super spreaders makes sense.

    Kids are mainly asymptomatic. Asymptomatic carriers of the virus are probably on the lower range of the virus transmission. OTOH, they still seem to end up immunized and their virus-induced immunity should be stronger than the vaccine-induced one. Therefore, it makes no sense at all to vaccinate young kids. They are not superspreaders as long as I know.

  78. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AnonfromTN

    Unprotected mRNAs survive minutes in the cytoplasm because of high RNase activity there.

    Exactly, that’s what I was pointing at. Therefore those who talk about those vaccines as interfering with the genome are wrong. The liposomes might fuse with the endoplasmic reticulum, they probably do.

    https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1096/fj.09-145755

    The mRBA will be more stable there and be transcribed into protein. Their transcription would be transient and will not interfere with our nuclear genome.

    That is if everything is as they say it should be. But you are right, we have no idea what they put inside. So it might be more complicated.

    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acscentsci.9b01052

    OTOH read this about the Gamaleya Center:

    https://www.fontanka.ru/2020/07/24/69384661/

    Оба хуже (as usual).

    🙂

  79. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Levtraro

    You need a retrotranscriptase for that and a way to deliver the payload into the nucleus. Pfizer and Moderna are supposed to contain only the spike protein ORF. If everything is as is advertised then I am right, but see my comments above.

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  80. rpb says:
    @Beckow

    I agree with you entirely.
    The elderly ( Boomers) are forcing the young to get a vaccine with small benefits for them and potentially a long term complications.
    I have no pity for the old anymore. Could not care less.
    When winter comes in the Northern hemisphere it will be the real trial for the vaccines. My bet is : they will not work. A boosters campaign will start and the unvaccinated will be blamed and this will go on and on.
    Almost everyone I speak to of relative young age tell me these vaccines have made them quite ill. Some even need hospitalisations and they are staring to doubt the vaccines.
    Doubtless there will be young people who will suffer from Covid badly and potentially die. Any disease can do that – Somehow it seems most people found out in last few years that they will die someday and the day can reach them at any time.
    In another note: no one seems to notice that last year without the vaccines during the summer time the number of cases , hospitalisations and deaths were way lower than they are now ( at least in the UK).
    Last week there was a story in The Guardian that was pure comedy gold! It was great attempt to spin that the vaccinated dying in higher numbers than unvaccinated from the Delta is exactly what we could expect from vaccine. Logic be dammed, who cares anymore

  81. Missed the thread until now, all the provaxx and antivaxx regulars are out by now.

    Russia has a large informal (underground) economy, so when not-Putin does some NY/Cali-level crap in the formal economy, expect droves going over to the informal economy. Good for them from an agorist/libertarian perspective.

    Being provaxx and antivaxx based on whether it is necessary for your health and/or it is harmful or not misses the point: it is all about (thru vaccine passports) gatekeeping some economic activities, mainly international travel, but also lots of consumption choices for only conformists. This is much more consequntial than the fear of being struck down by the vaccines – you need to live with it as healthy persons, maybe indefinitely.

    Since pro or antivaxx is strongly correlated with institutional trust, being antivaxx naturally means turning away from formal institutions. I’ve come to the realization that the WEF (or whatever boogeyman behind the whole COVID mess) wants as many antivaxxer as vaccinated. This explains how brazen this whole vaccination agenda is being pushed, to drive a wedge where it didn’t exist. The vaccinated can be inducted into the Greek-letter hierarchy easily while the antivaxxers can be left alone in the Falklands (to use Huxleyan analogies), where they don’t expect formal institutional support and live by their own rules. Saves the world state the trouble of paying them UBI too.

    Thanks Bashi for pointing out what Levtaro talked about.

  82. iffen says:

    Maybe this means that Russians are out front of “Muh Merikuns” in not trusting the government and institutions. Maybe, like they led us to victory in The Great Patriotic War, they will lead us to victory over oppressive and malevolent governance.

  83. @Yevardian

    I’d put Ron’s theory being true at perhaps 1%.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  84. @utu

    In the beginning when vaccinations began and there were shortages of vaccine (which was the case in all countries except Russia according to Kremlin and Karlin)…

    I never claimed that. I specifically said that vaccines were being rationed for the elderly and critical care workers from January until sometime in February, at which point they were progressively opened up to all other categories of people because interest in the vaccine (or getting it imminently, at any rate) had dried up from the pensioners.

    Please try not to lie so much.

  85. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Yellowface Anon

    Yeah, Levtraro always makes very enlightening comments. Someone should do an RNA Seq on the Pfizer and Moderna magic potions. Dear Prof. Annon from Tennessee, would you do us such a favor?

    Please …

    🙂

    • Thanks: Levtraro
    • LOL: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  86. @Bashibuzuk

    My lab is not equipped to do that. There are many commercial deep-sequencing services (that claim to sequence all mRNAs in your sample) that can do that. You need a physician with access to these “vaccines” to supply the samples. I am not an MD, thank goodness.

    I would strongly suspect that Pfizer and Moderna would use any means available to them to stop this or gag the publication of the results. No liar ever wanted to be exposed.

  87. @Yellowface Anon

    Being provaxx and antivaxx based on whether it is necessary for your health and/or it is harmful or not misses the point: it is all about (thru vaccine passports) gatekeeping some economic activities, mainly international travel, but also lots of consumption choices for only conformists.

    The issue of whether the vaccines are a necessary response to Corona Chan (or whatever new surprise creepy Bill has planned for us next) is pivotal to people grasping that this is being forced onto them for a specific reason, using the “pandemic” as a pretext. Cheap, safe & effective remedies exist for Corona Chan, but they are being stonewalled and banned by Western governments and the “vaccines” crammed down our throats instead – vaccines which not only don’t stop the infection or spread of Corona Chan, but which kill way more people than the bug they are supposed to be “protecting” us from. The “vaccines are our only hope” narrative doesn’t pass the smell test, and this should alert people to the hidden agenda which is afoot.

    So from that perspective, the vaccines are central – as you correctly pointed out, they are the gateway to the true objective, namely the “Vaccine Passports” and systematic imposition of total control over the population. Stopping the drive to “vaccination” is critical to kill the “Vaccine Passports”, and is a prerequisite to halting the choreographed slide into a technocratic dictatorship – an absolutely necessary step, albeit not necessarily sufficient by itself to kill the Great Reset.

    There is a shitload of planning behind this global power grab, and creepy Bill & Uncle Klaus have infested governments worldwide with legions of stooges eager to carry out their instructions. The “Vaccine Passports” are just one facet of their strategic plan – best to kill it while we still can, before we’re overwhelmed with the planned collapse of the global financial system and supply chains.

    [MORE]

    This is much more consequntial than the fear of being struck down by the vaccines – you need to live with it as healthy persons, maybe indefinitely.

    The Corona Chan virus is little more than a glorified head cold bug, and the global population can certainly accomodate it in the background of nuisance bugs if we are permitted to use the known safe and effective remedies.

    We cannot live as healthy people, however, and certainly not indefinitely, in the planned regime of universally imposed bioweapons disguised as “vaccines” and “booster shots”.

    The track record so far suggests that at least part of the Corona Chan “vaccination” plan includes a substantial effort toward depopulation. Whatever is contained in the Corona Chan “vaccines” has already proven to be far more toxic than all previous vaccines in history combined.

    If “vaccine Passports” are introduced, then as long as the formulation of the “vaccines” is controlled by the ruling technocrats, the lemmings subject to “Vaccination Passports” will have no control over their health or their liberty. Under these circumstances, health and liberty are inseparable – we will either have both, or neither.

    A range of mitigation strategies against the Corona Chan “vaccines” have already come to light, but these only remain available at the whim of our government and medical officials. Recall how easily HydroxyChloroquine and Ivervemectin were removed from public access, and efforts to ban N-Acetyl Cysteine have also commenced. Any other herbal, nutritional or medicinal material can just as easily be “disappeared” if the lemmings permit it. The situation, already tenuous, will become irrecoverable if “Vaccine Passports” become reality.

    Ergo, the Corona Chan “vaccine” campaign must be stopped, to kill the push for “Vaccine Passports”, and to inseperably restore our health and liberty.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
  88. JerseyMan says:

    Anatoly – are the deaths still currently concentrated among the elderly in Russia? Curious to know if the concentration in deaths has changed since the second wave?

    Regarding the vaccine resistant elderly in Russia, who do they support politically if not Putin? Communist Party?

    • Replies: @melanf
  89. melanf says:
    @JerseyMan

    Regarding the vaccine resistant elderly in Russia, who do they support politically if not Putin? Communist Party?

    Yes. The “Communists” actively promote anti-vaccination populism. I didn’t like these people before, but only now I realized that a place should be prepared for them in the very depths of hell

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  90. @utu

    So from the very beginning when the concept of herd immunity was formulated it was about interventions and control by humans.

    Let’s discuss the popular concept of “Herd Immunity”…

    https://off-guardian.org/2021/07/05/new-normal-newspeak-1-herd-immunity/

  91. @melanf

    It’s not necessarily all commies, it’s specifically Uncle Zyu. His sell-by time has come and gone, his peak popularity was in 1996 (when, being a pathetic coward, he allowed Yeltsin to “win” by election fraud). So, he is desperate to use anything to prop up his “party”. There are anti-Zyu commies in Russia, who are a lot more palatable.

  92. Levtraro says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Read the paper. In the experiments, LINE1 retrotransposons got busy mediating the retrotranscription. The experiments demonstrated this mechanism and show that the integrated alien DNA segments immediately began expressing themselves producing proteins. Worrisome stuff.

    The only valid objection to the paper with regards to matters discussed here is whether the mRNA from the vaccines can also be integrated by these cellular mechanisms or whether it is just the natural, viral RNA that can do the trick. But I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for anybody trying to repeat the experiments using vaccine RNA instead of viral RNA.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  93. @melanf

    Australia currently offers its lemmings the AstraZeneca and pFizer “vaccines”, with AstraZeneca to the older and pFizer to the younger.

    Anecdotally, the Australian mainstream reporting of adverse events overwhelmingly targets the AstraZeneca product, with a general public perception that the pFizer “vaccine” is the safer option.

    The same situation appears to prevail in Europe – AstraZeneca seems to cop most of the bad press.

    Yet the reality would seem to be quite the opposite – the AstraZeneca “vaccine” is actually substantially safer than the pFizer product, eg:

    https://principia-scientific.com/pfizer-vaccine-has-three-times-more-deaths-than-astrazeneca/

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/174034/Pfizer-vaccine-led-to-more-deaths-than-AstraZeneca-Report

    One might speculate that in the politics of the vaccine industry (and let’s not forget who has the most invested in the global vaccine game?) a narrative is being nurtured to herd the lemmings away from AstraZeneca and into the mRNA camp.

    • Agree: Aedib
  94. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Levtraro

    I will read the paper. L1 are well known trouble makers. However you need base-pairing to ensure reverse transcription. Endonuclease specificity ain’t enough. I hope that they checked the Spike mRNA to ensure this ain’t gonna happen.

    (Otherwise they would be Evil, they couldn’t be, can they ?).

    😉

  95. Russians are too passive to do anything themselves. Tsar must force them to take the vaccine.

  96. anaccount says:

    Why is everyone so concerned about putting a needle in my arm? This is a worldwide delusion and it’s sad to see that Russia’s leaders have fallen in line with it. Belarus is the only country to see through this, followed by Sweden, at least to some extent.

    • Replies: @joniel
  97. @Mersaux

    For anybody who lived in that psycho led lands in the commie era, this is understandable. Nevertheless I hate to see Russians dying for the psychological damage that those murderous Bolsheviks screwed the nation with. Anatoly, think up something to get them to get the jab! I would take Sputnik V anytime, I refuse to take the shit that they peddle here. Tough luck!

    A, love your work… just with that Putler you piss me off. But being from the same Alma Mater, I give you a space, you ass! It may be that between my time and yours, the level of human intel. went down. Climb up!

  98. Beckow says:
    @Yellowface Anon

    pro or antivaxx is strongly correlated with institutional trust, being antivaxx naturally means turning away from formal institutions. I’ve come to the realization that the WEF (or whatever boogeyman behind the whole COVID mess) wants as many antivaxxer as vaccinated. This explains how brazen this whole vaccination agenda is…

    You can also explain the brazenness by institutional stupidity – they are on an auto-pilot. Separating people into two mutually antagonistic groups helps to maintain whatever system it is that they are trying to keep going. The only problem is the inherent instability in this setup – any small event or a new discovery could undermine the plan.

    Keeping apart people who didn’t take the shots is logistically very hard – whole new areas of business could be created. The sense I get is the fragility of the current situation and an almost inevitable collapse via a number of available drop-shoots, impossible to predict which one. At the beginning of 2020 we were already living in a very complex and unsustainable world – but it could had gone for years. Corona killed that. As much as MRNA treatment modifies genetics, the corona hysteria has modified permanently how we live. This is the phase before things happen, not much is happening yet.

  99. utu says:
    @melanf

    “there was no such propaganda (at the state level)” – Sputnik V twitter account that propagated fake news from Hungarian data is not a state level?

    But you are correct about AstraZeneka. This is actually interesting. Russian media got some mileage from AstraZeneca document they uncovered:

    “Restoring Confidence in COVID-19 Vaccines and Improved Co-operation Between Regulatory, Healthcare Agencies and Pharmaceutical Companies”

    https://sputniknews.com/world/202105261083003470-more-deaths-related-to-vaccination-with-pfizer-than-astrazeneca---report/

    The Moscow office of the vaccine manufacturer confirmed to Sputnik the authenticity of the document.

    AstraZeneca confirms that it authored the document. This information was not intended for public release,” the company’s spokesperson said.

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/524907-russian-campaign-astrazeneca-report/

    and Iran and Pakistan sites

    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/174034/Pfizer-vaccine-led-to-more-deaths-than-AstraZeneca-Report

    https://nation.com.pk/27-May-2021/more-deaths-related-to-vaccination-with-pfizer-than-astrazeneca-report

    If you google the title you can find the pdf of scanned copy at pharmvestnik.ru. I could not find the document anywhere else.

    Anti-vaxxers love that document.

    • Replies: @melanf
  100. joniel says:
    @anaccount

    Nearly 500K excess deaths in Russia since the pandemic began is a delusion?

    • Replies: @anaccount
  101. @Ultrafart the Brave

    Go agorist, economically secede. You can’t change the elites outside of revolutions, they have all the guns and intel, we have little.

    Paleolibertarianism will be seen as only feasible political system when the WEF collapses on itself. (Libertarianism is too idealistic, btw.)

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
  102. @Beckow

    never say permanent – after all Romans, medievals, and capitalists used to see their world as everlasting. We live in a complex and constantly shifting world, and as you said some part of equation is going to shift rapidly.

    However:

    Keeping apart people who didn’t take the shots is logistically very hard – whole new areas of business could be created.

    Jim Crow laws, Apartheid, even Indian castes (thru various iterations over the ages). The exact form can persist for a generation, if not two.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  103. @Beckow

    Never say permanent – after all Romans, medievals, and capitalists used to see their world as everlasting. The WEF thinks theirs will, too. We live in a complex and constantly shifting world, and as you said some part of equation is going to shift rapidly.

    However:

    Keeping apart people who didn’t take the shots is logistically very hard – whole new areas of business could be created.

    Jim Crow laws, Apartheid, even Indian castes (thru various iterations over the ages). The exact form can persist for a generation, if not two.

  104. @Yellowface Anon

    Let me clarify: I am not a libertarian since it is ultimately walking on the same track as communism – an utopia that drowns out everything else, even if libertarianism preserves the individual and its infinite preferences while communism dissolves him into a content mass. We will never get there and in the road much struggle and suffering in the name of a higher ideal will be wrought.
    Similarly investment of political power into a central authority (not necessarily the modern state) is inevitable given human biology. It is often ameliorating and it can be parasitic or detrimental. We can legitimately discuss how much power should this central authority have and the scope of these powers, whether they can be placed in alternative institutions.
    Economic secession is a strategy to withdraw economic consent to formal institutions in order to reduce its power or conversely increase the power of alternate social units (individual, clan, tribe, association…). Closer to the agorist view of the world, if sufficient number of the world’s population economically secedes, globalism may lose its support and collapse, and alternative social systems can be conceived (this can fall into the trap of eschatonic last battle). It might be the current zeitgeist given the near-civilizational collapse in institutional trust, that could signal a paradigmic shift from capitalistic modernity.
    This is why I said

    Paleolibertarianism will be seen as only feasible political system when the WEF collapses on itself.

    – That is, a form of ideology against ostentious exhibition and execution of state power, combined with the backlash to Late Capitalist alienation, both of them now focused on and expressed thru opposition to the vaccination agenda.
    Provaxx or Antivaxx, vaccine passports or agorism, UBI or gold/crypto, are mere symptoms.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
  105. I suppose a silver lining here is that mortality should become increasingly loaded against Putin opponents, many of whom evidently conflate their opinion with him and on anything made in Russia, and would rather get a foreign synthesized virus than take a Russian-made vaccine.

    So are the Putin-haters against vaccination in general? Or just against Sputnik V?

  106. @showmethereal

    Yeah, messing with the natural order is why we have food crops. How terrible.

    • LOL: iffen
  107. melanf says:
    @utu

    “there was no such propaganda (at the state level)” – Sputnik V twitter account that propagated fake news from Hungarian data is not a state level?

    Sputnik V twitter account this is not a state level.

    I have seen this state propaganda – there were critical articles “23 old men died in Norway…”, but there were laudatory articles and reports about the success of American scientists, mass vaccination in Israel, etc.
    In aggregate , this topic is covered neutrally

    The situation can be compared with the coverage of the Sputnik vaccine in the Western media: there are 100% fakes that are distributed by the Western state. media (https://www.dw.com/ru/ot-vakciny-sputnik-v-otkazyvajutsja-iz-za-halatnosti-proizvoditelja/a-57389820), there are laudatory articles

    The Moscow office of the vaccine manufacturer confirmed to Sputnik the authenticity of the document.

    AstraZeneca confirms that it authored the document. This information was not intended for public release,” the company’s spokesperson said.

    Astroseneka apparently should refute this document.

    By the way, is this also a fake created in Moscow?
    https://osf.io/a9jdq/

  108. Aedib says:

    Our World in Data shows a strong acceleration of the vaccination rate in Russia (It is now around a million shots per day). Is this because of the government forcing the population to take the shots or because of fear to the delta variant?

  109. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Aedib

    Because of the government.

  110. melanf says:
    @Aedib

    Our World in Data shows a strong acceleration of the vaccination rate in Russia (It is now around a million shots per day). Is this because of the government forcing the population to take the shots or because of fear to the delta variant?

    Both factors.

    There is also a third factor – as the number of vaccinated increases, they begin to put pressure on the unvaccinated, demanding that they be vaccinated

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  111. Bashibuzuk says:
    @melanf

    as the number of vaccinated increases, they begin to put pressure on the unvaccinated, demanding that they be vaccinated

    And why would they do that ?

    • Replies: @Aedib
    , @melanf
  112. Aedib says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    To reach herd immunity?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  113. melanf says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    And why would they do that ?

    In matters of vaccination, the main factor is selfishness. While a person is not vaccinated, he fears for his health (and what if the vaccine will harm me?). After he is vaccinated, the person again fears for his health (and what if an unvaccinated colleague infects me?) In addition, people are outraged “I was vaccinated! why are the others procrastinating! Because of them, the mask mode continues, restrictions, etc.”

    • Agree: Brás Cubas
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  114. Bashibuzuk says:
    @melanf

    In matters of vaccination, the main factor is selfishness

    Agree with that.

    unvaccinated colleague infects me

    If vaccines work as advertised, the vaccinated people are safe from harm. So you imply that vaccinated people in RusFed do not believe that the vaccines are as effective as advertised?

    BTW, Sputnik is quite efficient according to a recent Nature publication.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2

    “I was vaccinated! why are the others procrastinating! Because of them, the mask mode continues, restrictions, etc.”

    Понял, одному скучно…

    😉

    Now seriously, people should be free to stick to their principles. If the vaccine works fine, the vaxxers are at an advantage compared to the antivaxxers, the vaxxers should just quietly enjoy their advantage, shouldn’t they?

    Also see this:

    https://kornev.livejournal.com/577439.html
    https://kornev.livejournal.com/577782.html

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  115. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Aedib

    Well yeah, but it will be reached as well if enough people gets the virus. And if Zverev is right, then mass vaccination of the younger population might actually not be necessary. See my discussion with utu above, comment # 61 and others.

    • Thanks: Aedib
  116. melanf says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    If vaccines work as advertised, the vaccinated people are safe from harm.

    The vaccine reduces the likelihood of getting sick/dying, but it does not give a 100% guarantee. Especially against the delta strain, against which all vaccines work less effectively

  117. Bashibuzuk says:

    Especially against the delta strain, against which all vaccines work less effectively

    Don’t think we have enough data to come to this conclusion. Zverev seems to think that the acquired immunity is quite robust.

    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20210629/1739040636.html

    Of course we have also read opposite opinions that suggest that the re-infections are happening. Probably safer to conclude that we currently don’t know.

    • Replies: @melanf
  118. melanf says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Zverev seems to think that the acquired immunity is quite robust.

    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20210629/1739040636.html

    Zverev is a disgusting charlatan who (based on his qualifications) should work as a janitor

    • Replies: @melanf
  119. Bashibuzuk says:
    @melanf

    So Academician Zverev, twice decorated by the EusFed government is a charlatan in your opinion?

    С 1985 года работает в НИИ вирусных препаратов имени О. Г. Анджапаридзе РАМН, пройдя путь от старшего научного сотрудника до директора. 15 мая 1995 года защитил докторскую диссертацию «Структура гена CD4-рецептора и изучение антивирусного действия рекомбинантных форм CD4» (официальные оппоненты А. А. Краевский, В. З. Тарантул и Л. В. Урываев). В 2005 году проведена реорганизация НИИ вакцин и сывороток имени И. И. Мечникова РАМН в форме присоединения к нему НИИ вирусных препаратов имени О. Г. Анджапаридзе РАМН.

    С 2005 года по настоящее время возглавляет объединённый институт[2].

    Возглавляет кафедру микробиологии, вирусологии и иммунологии медико-профилактического факультета Сеченовского университета[3].

    12 февраля 1999 года избран членом-корреспондентом РАМН, 6 апреля 2002 года — академиком РАМН. 30 сентября 2013 года стал академиком РАН (в рамках присоединения РАМН и РАСХН к РАН).

    Since 1985 he has been working at the O. G. Andzhaparidze Research Institute of Viral Preparations of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, having worked his way up from a senior researcher to a director. On May 15, 1995 he defended his doctoral dissertation “The structure of the CD4 receptor gene and the study of the antiviral action of recombinant forms of CD4” (official opponents A. Kraevsky, V. Z. Tarantul and L. V. Uryvaev). In 2005, the reorganization of the II Mechnikov Research Institute of Vaccines and Serums of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences was carried out in the form of joining the Research Institute of Viral Preparations named after O. G. Andzhaparidze of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences.

    From 2005 to the present, he is the head of the joint institute [2].

    Head of the Department of Microbiology, Virology and Immunology, Faculty of Medicine, Sechenov University [3].

    On February 12, 1999, he was elected a corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, on April 6, 2002 – an academician of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. On September 30, 2013 he became an academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (within the framework of the accession of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences and the Russian Academy of Agricultural Sciences to the Russian Academy of Sciences).

    I think we don’t have anymore the great charlatans we once had. (Sarc.)

    😉

  120. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    Nothing works 100% and the delta strain is a much milder version of corona. Your search for a perfect, risk-less life at the expense of healthy and young (even children) is indeed an extreme selfishness. How about the people who feel at risk even after being vaccinated leave the society, shut the door behind themselves and live in isolation? Let the rest of us get on with our lives.

    If you still think that lockdowns and masks have anything to do with the percentage of vaccinated you have not been paying attention. Are you ready for your booster shot this fall? And next year? And the year after?

  121. Beckow says:
    @Yellowface Anon

    …Jim Crow laws, Apartheid, even Indian castes…The exact form can persist for a generation, if not two.

    That is unlikely because the vaccination status is not that easy to establish and keep track off. Plus it cuts across the society in a way that business activity would suffer – unvaccinated are customers too. To institute a vaccination Apartheid would be very complex and require brute force at the beginning.

    I don’t exclude it, but a more likely scenario is a slow step-by-step collapse into a fragmented society with fewer and fewer benefits for everyone. The corona mental meme has been released – it means that a form of hypochondria is here to stay, all transactions are more complex an expensive, and ever-cheaper labor will be harder given the radically changed expectations.

    My money is on the young and fearless to eventually prevail and establish a society that resets many things – cushy pensions, paper gold certificates, living of other people’s debts may be curtailed. The elderly have no muscle power and with corona they are also at high health risk. That will translate into how we live.

  122. @Aedib

    Clearly the second factor is stronger.

    • Replies: @utu
  123. @melanf

    It would be interesting to see what his Hirsch score is. Does he have any publications in serious journals? (preferably not as part of huge collectives). There is a class of people in Russia who excel in amassing credentials without doing anything, would be instructive to see if Zverev is one of them.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @melanf
  124. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A great many excellent Russian scientists do not publish in English language journals. Some of these people would be easily capable to compete with their international counterparts if they could write in English and afford to pay the publication submittal fee.

    Others don’t publish in international journals because they still have a Sovok mentality and see avoiding Western journals as a form of patriotism. This might well be the case with many older scientists from Obolensk, which was part of Biopreparat Biodefense complex in the Soviet times .

    https://www.newsweek.com/planning-plague-192004

    One should look at the total number of publications, both Russian and English language ones and verify in what kind of Russian scientific journals they published. Also, talking about favoring a limited scope of vaccination would probably trigger the Gamaleya / Ginzburg people and would result in the vicious attacks against the person who is seen as decreasing the profits Ginzburg and his team are gonna make.

    Anyway, for me anyone who ended up head of an institute that has been co-founded by Timofeev-Ressovsky is probably an outstanding scientist, whether he published in international journals or not.

  125. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Anyway, for me anyone who ended up head of an institute that has been co-founded by Timofeev-Ressovsky is probably an outstanding scientist, whether he published in international journals or not.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Zverev+V&cauthor_id=33662411

    Well, Zverev has clearly published a lot.

    And he knows what he is talking about…

    https://www.pnp.ru/social/akademik-zverev-rossiyskie-vakciny-ot-koronavirusa-zashhishhayut-ot-indiyskogo-shtamma.html

    So perhaps melanf was too radical in his assessment of Zverev’s professional credibility. (Sarc.)

  126. @Bashibuzuk

    Now seriously, people should be free to stick to their principles. If the vaccine works fine, the vaxxers are at an advantage compared to the antivaxxers, the vaxxers should just quietly enjoy their advantage, shouldn’t they?

    Well, this doesn’t apply to me. I am extremely confident in the Sputnik vaccine. What I do resent is being subjected to closures and mask regimes, a situation that is fundamentally created by anti-vaxxers and the government’s need to prevent a PR disaster if the hospitals become overloaded (personally I would just deny anti-vaxxers publicly funded treatment for Corona, solving that problem in a single stroke… but governments are more “humane” or at least PR conscious than me). I also resent being guilt tripped into having to pretend to be sorry whenever some person who didn’t take the vax (at least without a very good reason) croaks. Funnily enough, I notice on Facebook/VK that it is anti-vaxxers who get most enraged when you react to some new Corona death by saying, “Well, at least (s)he didn’t get the microchip.”

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @iffen
    , @utu
    , @Mr. Hack
  127. @Bashibuzuk

    Some of these people would be easily capable to compete with their international counterparts if they could write in English and afford to pay the publication submittal fee.

    If you can’t write in English, then I’m sorry to be so blunt, but you are not going to be a great scientist by definition, because virtually all leading-edge scientific discourse happens in English. There are perhaps some very partial exceptions in some narrow spheres mostly concerning the physical sciences as pertains to Russia, but even the USSR was a minnow in the biological and life sciences, to say nothing of Russia.

    Also, talking about favoring a limited scope of vaccination would probably trigger the Gamaleya / Ginzburg people…

    The idea is anti-Corona vaccines are a get rich scheme for Gamaleya/Ginzburg is 100x as ridiculous as that they are one for Big Pharma, and given how ridiculous the latter is, that’s really saying something.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  128. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I understand how you feel and you have good reasons to feel the way you do. But as the French saying goes :

    La liberté de l’un s’arrête là où la liberté de l’autre commence“.

    So I basically apply a Jedem das Seine attitude to the whole vaxxer / antivaxxer psychodrama. I’ve got relatives in RusFed that I urged to get the Sputnik jab and who refused to get vaccinated. They got sick, not terribly sick with Covid, despite being old and in poor health, but sick enough to regret not having headed to my advice. Karma, you can’t force humans becoming better people, they have to earn it through their own experience.

    Каждому по делам его…

  129. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The idea is anti-Corona vaccines are a get rich scheme for Gamaleya/Ginzburg is 100x as ridiculous as that they are one for Big Pharma, and given how ridiculous the latter is, that’s really saying something.

    It certainly won’t make them poorer…

    🙂

    • Agree: Ultrafart the Brave
    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  130. iffen says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Shouldn’t that be nano-chip.

  131. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    “There’s no difference in increase in vaccination rates” – When you look at Dragan’s second graph you see that in the recent surge Far East had 2.25% rate and Цфо́ slightly over 4%. So there are differences between regions in the recent push. While similar ups and downs of the curves for different regions are probably correlated with vaccine deliveries and the intensity of persuasion to vaccinate campaign.

  132. utu says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    As far as Zverev I do not know where he is coming from. Is he feeding anti-vaxxer sentiments? Probably. But if his intention is not to wreck the vaccination campaign but to streamline it to maximize the benefit of each administered dose of vaccine that people who recovered from covid infection should be the lowest priority for vaccination it could be a constructive opinion in particular for country with vaccine shortages. Then, however, the logistic of vaccinating people would be more complicated. People would have to be tested for anti-bodies several days prior to their vaccination appointment which probably would result in lower daily vaccination rate.

    I have not responded to your last comment about vaccinating of children with which I did not agree. In a perfect world if we had all necessary numbers we would be able calculate the answers. But when we do not know everything there is room for a general principle guiding a decision like the precautionary principle, that perhaps in long run vaccinating children can cause more harm than preventing children from infecting older people who actually can die. But when it comes to vaccines the precautionary principles are entangled with too much of anti-science paranoias and are pushed to the extreme. That’s why I do not trust them and I do not trust your sentiment because basically you have reduced your vaccine skepticism to the “what about the children” emotional blackmail fallacy.

  133. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    If you were living in Israel where vaccines were offered to everybody and more importantly were actually available you could use Swiftian satire on people who did not want to get vaccinated like some Ultra-Orthodox in Israel because it would be anchored in reality. Though I have a mixed feeling about Swift’s heartless anti-Catholic satires – Monty Python’s were at least funny (*)

    But you live in Russia and when you wrote your “dying in Russia is optional” article it was not even a satire, it was not funny and it was not true. It was a blatant lie. Vaccines were not available to everybody. The vaccination rate was supply driven.

    The apparent surplus or abundance of vaccines that was the premise on which you built your article was infinitesimally shallow. If a small inconsequential percentage of babushkas (inconsequential to IFR change in Russia) were brought to the open vaccination stations most of them would be sent back home with nothing.

    (*)

    • Troll: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @HomosapiensPlus
  134. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I am extremely confident in the Sputnik vaccine.

    Do you feel the same about the Pfizer vaccine? It’s the one that both I and my 89 year old roommate took, and so far we’ve avoided contracting any Covid. The talk now is that a booster shot will be highly recommended…?

    • Replies: @melanf
  135. anaccount says:
    @joniel

    Millions of people died from respiratory illness in the ten years preceding this hoax and it was never an emergency. Why didn’t you care then? Your health officials rebranded just another strain of the common cold and included flu deaths in their totals, at least here in the US. They were counting all kinds of deaths actually.

  136. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Do you feel the same about the Pfizer vaccine? It’s the one that both I and my 89 year old roommate took, and so far we’ve avoided contracting any Covid. The talk now is that a booster shot will be highly recommended…?

    What can be said for sure is that the best covid vaccines used now reduce the chance of getting sick with new covid strains by 5-10 times. So this is undoubtedly the best protection (except for complete isolation), but being vaccinated you can get sick, infect others, die. I was vaccinated in February, but I try to avoid unnecessary risks

  137. melanf says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It would be interesting to see what his Hirsch score is

    He is the director of the institute. Such people publish (co-authored) articles that they have not written or even read.

  138. The surge in vaccinations are continuing. Up to almost 800k daily vaccinations now. But it’s still almost only first doses. The production of the second doses has been an issue. We will see if there’s enough second doses available in two or three weeks.

  139. @melanf

    Hence my clarification that it preferably not be as part of large collectives.

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  140. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Zverev has been cited as a co-author on 163 articles and he was first author on a couple of dozens of these publications.

    That’s probably enough to not count him among the ignoramuses in his professional field. At least it is well enough for me and for Russian Academy of Science…

    😆

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  141. GMC says:

    July 9th 2021 – the EU data base guys at Endura Vigilance , has the count of deaths due to the mRNA at 17, 500 + – a couple – along with 1.7 million injured – 800,000 seriously. If this is a realistic number and it seems to be confirmed at Global Research, Russia should not let their vaccine go to the EU – because in the end – the EU will blame Sputnik Vee for the deaths. This is time for Russia to get down and dirty and start talkin ! The Pravda.

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  142. @utu

    The apparent surplus or abundance of vaccines that was the premise on which you built your article was infinitesimally shallow. If a small inconsequential percentage of babushkas (inconsequential to IFR change in Russia) were brought to the open vaccination stations most of them would be sent back home with nothing.

    Obviously vaccination of that many in one day was never possible anywhere in the world, but Russia’s elderly and vulnerable have had 7 months to get the vaccine. 7 whole months and still many of them haven’t

  143. @melanf

    The vaccine reduces the likelihood of getting sick/dying, but it does not give a 100% guarantee.

    That statement is loyal to the official narrative – that is, the party line promoted and enforced by all government and medical beauracracies, the mainstream media and social media such as Twitter, Facebook, YouTube & etc, under the threat of suppression, censorship, deplatforming and persecution for any dissenters.

    However, that statement is also demonstrably false, and alarmingly so.

    [MORE]

    The Corona Chan “vaccines” do not “reduce the likelihood of getting sick/dying” – they increase the risk of dying by a factor of x40 if you are old, and x260 if you are young. Just ask the Norwegians and the Israelis (and everyone else in every nation where these experimental concoctions have been rolled out)…

    https://anti-empire.com/norways-health-authority-says-further-use-of-astrazeneca-riskier-than-covid-recommends-pulling-vaccine-permanently/

    https://www.unz.com/gatzmon/the-israeli-people-committees-april-report-on-the-lethal-impact-of-vaccinations/

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/experimental-vaccine-death-rate-for-israels-elderly-40-times-higher-than-covid-19-deaths-researchers

    https://freenations.net/record-vaccine-deaths-risk-greater-than-covid-governments-manipulate-data-illegal-tracking-of-vaccinated-illegal-propaganda-covid-fascists-revealed/

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-02-family-doctor-extreme-side-effects-moderna-jab.html

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-01-depopulation-alert-shocking-new-study-reveals-covid-vaccine-terminates-4-out-of-5-pregnancies-via-spontaneous-abortions.html

    While on the subject, let’s not overlook the indisputable fact, from the FDA’s and the CDC’s own data, that the Corona Chan “vaccines” have killed more people in just 6 months than all other vaccines combined over the last 30 years!

    Especially against the delta strain, against which all vaccines work less effectively.

    Two things that should be clarified about the Corona Chan “vaccines” and the “deadly Delta variant”…

    1. The emphasis on the “deadliness” of the “deadly Delta variant” implied by the phrase “especially against the delta strain” is very misleading, because the “deadly Delta variant” is not “deadly” at all, in fact it is even less virulent than the original Corona Chan bug.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/follow-the-science-deadly-delta-variant-registers-a-99.9-recovery-rate

    2. All of the Corona Chan “vaccines” most certainly do work “less effectively” on the “deadly Delta variant”, in fact it appears that they amplify the injuries and mortality from this bug to levels far greater than for the unvaccinated population!

    https://vaccines.news/2021-06-29-mortality-delta-variant-eight-times-higher-vaccinated.html
    https://gnews.org/1357351/

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-07-01-report-majority-now-dying-with-covid-are-vaccinated.html

    https://thehighwire.com/videos/episode-221-the-mrna-insider/

    Just to punctuate the fact that the Corona Chan “vaccines” are killing bucketloads of people, once again, here’s that inconvenient truth exposed in a couple of screen captures (and remember, VAERS only catches between 1% – 10% of actual adverse events and deaths – you do the math).

    • Replies: @melanf
  144. @Bashibuzuk

    For comparison, Anthony Fauci is the director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the chief medical advisor to the president. He is listed as an author of >1,000 papers (search PubMed for Fauci AS). He is the guy who proclaimed about a year ago that masks are useless, then changed tune to promoting mask wearing, going all the way to advising double and triple masking. This and his many other flips clearly show that he is either a quack or a shameless opportunist (these things are not mutually exclusive).

  145. melanf says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    The Corona Chan “vaccines” do not “reduce the likelihood of getting sick/dying” – they increase the risk of dying by a factor of x40 if you are old, and x260 if you are young.

    In Russia, with 19 million vaccinated with two doses, anti-vaccinators can not even give real (not fake) examples of people who were vaccinated, but died from covid. That is, there are very few such people (who were vaccinated but died from covid)

  146. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    That may be true about Sputnik given that it is a regular flu vaccine: very few side effects but low effectiveness. In that case why bother?

    The MRNA shots are not really vaccines: they are an experimental genetic treatment that has been around for decades with minimal results against much harsher diseases. People took them out of desperation. To repackage MRNA as a corona killer was rather daring, it may work to some extent, but the story has been evolving and changing so many times that the risk – by definition – is high.

    You take risk if the danger or reward are high. If the danger is low, e.g. under 18 have 99.997% survival of corona, 18-30 healthy almost as good, it simply makes no sense to risk headaches, heart and neurological issues, etc…

    If by vaccinating young people make the lives of old and sick safer, they should be compensated. Are they? Don’t we have a market system? But I haven’t seen the elderly offering money, free rent, assets, to pay more in taxes,etc… Why are the young supposed to care if the old are not? The old are the selfish ones here.

  147. 216 says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I have a (young) friend from the Russian Far East who came to Moscow recently, he is not anti-vaxxer like his gf and would have gotten it but was too lazy to do so (and is now bummed about it as can’t visit restaurants while here).

    In the US, this is practically unheard of. The early attempts of New York state to impose the vaccine passport were inept, and the populist right has successfully made it too expensive to impose.

  148. @melanf

    In Russia, with 19 million vaccinated with two doses, anti-vaccinators can not even give real (not fake) examples of people who were vaccinated, but died from covid.

    Of course, you are correct.

    My bad.

    My error is, being a helpless Western lemming trapped in an American vassal state, I obsess over the real and present danger of the experimental Western bioweapons disguised as “vaccines” being forced down our throats.

    A clear and explicit distinction probably should be made in any discussion of these vaccines (or for the Western poisons, “vaccines”). Otherwise, someone stumbling blindly across one of these threads might miss the distinction.

    And thanks for providing further confirmation of the safety (so far) of the Russian Sputnik V vaccine.

  149. @Beckow

    The MRNA shots are not really vaccines: they are an experimental genetic treatment that has been around for decades with minimal results against much harsher diseases.

    My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines have never been used on humans before the Corona Chan pandemic.

    If this is not the case, and mRNA vaccines do have a history of human use, can you provide sources or links to clarify this?

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  150. @showmethereal

    Real problems with Covid vaccines have little to do with conspiracy theories & paranoid public. Simply:

    * there is no agreement, in the world, between experts- and I don’t mean Covid gurus – about what Covid actually is, its short-term & long-term prognosis. Let’s be frank- medicine is not an exact science, even virology & molecular biology.

    * experts have been changing opinions & positions way too much. They sound like climate scientists- which is not a compliment

    * it seems that some protocols have been skipped when producing vaccines, any one of them. Usually, it takes 3 years to produce a vaccine. When you do it in one year, you didn’t respect all scientific procedures. And this makes people, some people like me- suspicious. Not paranoid, just suspicious.

    * as I’ve said earlier, the Japanese are not too enthusiastic about vaccination. And they’re doing just fine: https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-05-24-21/h_9b4c33c43d3b34f22eb7d710cf62eb51
    …………………….
    Fewer than 2% of Japan’s 126 million population has been fully vaccinated against Covid-19, according to data compiled by CNN.

    So, why consider Russians more stupid/paranoid than the Japanese?

    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
  151. @Beckow

    If by vaccinating young people make the lives of old and sick safer, they should be compensated.

    That’s a good theory, but it seems that the Western Corona Chan “vaccines” don’t actually live up to the official narrative of “protection” and “herd immunity”, because they don’t actually stop the infection or spread of Corona Chan.

    As I’ve repeated like a broken record on many threads, the American CDC and the “vaccine” manufacturers themselves all freely admit this.

    Injecting the kiddies with these experimental”vaccines” does nothing whatsoever to stop the contagion of Corona Chan.

    What it does do, however, is injure and kill a lot of children who were at zero risk of contracting or getting sick from Corona Chan in the first place.

    Meanwhile, governments and medical beauracracies around the world have effectively banned cheap, extremely safe and highly effective remedies such as Ivermectin, which kills Corona Chan dead within 48 hours. Unlike soulless greedy lying technocrats like Fauci & Gates, Dr. Ryan Cole has treated and cured thousands of Corona Chan patients, so he knows what he’s talking about.

    Dr. Ryan Cole Talks About Covid-19, Ivermectin, & The Importance Of Vitamin D
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/06/no_author/talk-about-covid-19-mrna-bioweapon-ivermectin-the-importance-of-vitamin-d-dr-ryan-cole/


    Dr. Ryan Cole Speaks on the Corona Chan Virus
    https://rumble.com/embed/vgajwv/

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  152. Levtraro says:
    @GMC

    When you say Endura Vigilance I think you mean EudraVigilance:

    https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/pharmacovigilance/eudravigilance/access-eudravigilance-data

    This database does not contain info on deaths, only on suspected adverse side-effects of medicines approved by EMA and by particular EU countries, and death is not considered a side-effect, lol!

    Regarding mRNA vaccines approved by EMA, there are 284,433 reports of suspected side-effects for Pfizer-BioNTech (74% females, 71% between ages 18-64, most of them in Italy, France, Netherlands and Spain, most of them for minor and localized, nervous system, musculoskeletal-connective, and grastointestinal disorders), and 68,950 for Moderna (70% females, 70% between 18 and 64 years old, most of them in Italy, France, Netherlands and Spain, most of them for minor and localized, nervous system, musculosketal-connective, and grastointestinal disorders).

    So I don’t know where you got that info about 17+ thousand deaths, 1,7 million “injuries”, 800 thousand serious “injuries”.

    To access the data, go here:

    https://www.adrreports.eu/en/index.html

    Click on the link provided for COVID in the box with NEW in red letters. Click Accept. Click on the “Suspected adverse drug reaction reports for Substances” tab on the left. Scroll down to COVID-19 (there are four substances, corresponding to the four emergency-approval vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, Astrazeneca and Janssen).

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @GMC
  153. Levtraro says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines have never been used on humans before the Corona Chan pandemic.

    If this is not the case, and mRNA vaccines do have a history of human use, can you provide sources or links to clarify this?

    They haven’t. This is the first time any mRNA substance has been (emergency-) approved for use in humans. The same company that invented the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID vaccine (BioNTech, a German start-up funded by two Turks) tried to market mRNA substances for cancer but did not get a breakthrough. So it is not just that never have mRNA medicines been approved; on top of that the company that invented the predominantly-used mRNA COVID vaccine has never had any product approved before.

    This is an amazing achievement! First time use of a substance in humans by first time product from a small start-up and it is used all over the world on million upon millions of people!

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  154. @Mersaux

    Maybe they just take HCQ, azithromycin, zinc, ivermectin, doxycycline or fluvoxamine or some other cheap, safe to very safe and effective medication. Or Vitamin D as prophylaxis.

  155. @Levtraro

    Lab rats are SO expensive-‘useless eaters’ are cheap and expendable.

  156. @Ultrafart the Brave

    Ivermectin is also a highly protective prophylactic, so ideal for front-line workers, so dear to our Masters’ hearts. And it is useful even in late-stage, ICU patients, unlike HCQ. The outright ban on even mentioning ivermectin of those totalitarian platforms like Youtube is deeply, deeply, criminal and sinister.

    • Agree: GMC, Ultrafart the Brave
  157. GMC says:
    @Levtraro

    Thanks Bud – you’re right on the name but I was quoting Global Research with the ” murder” numbers and the 1.7 million injuries. I took for granted that G R had their verification down pat because they have some pretty heavy numbers from the ” Big 3 mRNA producers. You can see the article at G R. I’ll check out those websites. Spacibo

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  158. @Bashibuzuk

    I think your reply was very polite.

    Quoting Anatoly’s assessment of the allegation that Big Pharma is milking the Corona Chan “pandemic” with their Western poisons –

    … given how ridiculous the latter is …

    I’d say that it’s not ridiculous at all to suggest that Moderna and pFizer in particular, but also the other main Western Corona Chan “vaccine” players, are in the game for as much as they can screw out of the global market.

    We could go on about the gob-smacking global web of corruption and vested interests at play in the Corona Chan “pandemic”, with people like creepy Bill owning the WHO and having his stooges planted in most relevant regulatory agencies around the planet, and Fauci directly funding the virus “gain of function” and the “vaccine” development and standing to personally gain from the patents and sales of said “vaccines”, but here’s just a peek at how the pFizer management literally has a controlling finger in just about everyrelevant pie:

    https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2021/07/pfizers-board-of-directors-and-their.html

    How many of the executives of all these companies have become overnight billionaires with their experimental poisons shoved down the throats of the unwitting Western population? How many people have they killed while they’ve steamrolled proper regulatory precautions and raked in the money? How many more will pFizer and Moderna kill with their “booster shots” already coming down the pipe to the applause of vermin like Fauci and Gates, as they keep right on piling up the moolah?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  159. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    Big Pharma usually only provide medicine if it is hugely profitable or mandated upon them by TPTB. About the Coronavirus vaccines. I remember talking once with someone well placed among the hierarchy of one of the Western Pharma major companies that explained to me that they stopped producing novel antibiotics because it wasn’t paying enough per treatment.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  160. @Bashibuzuk

    …they stopped producing novel antibiotics because it wasn’t paying enough per treatment.

    Merck provides the perfect example of that mercenary behaviour. Truth and human lives are sacrificed on the altar of mammon.

    https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/06/10/mystery-solved-why-did-merck-disavow-its-own-drug-ivermectin-as-a-safe-and-effective-treatment-for-the-covid/

  161. Levtraro says:
    @GMC

    No worries mate, pozhalsta.

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