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Roman Protasevich Served in the Azov Battalion
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The rumors that Roman Protasevich was associated with the Azov Battalion, a Neo-Nazi regiment incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard, came off as too perfect of a “pro-Kremlin” caricature for me to initially put much faith in them.

But over the past couple of days it has been more or less confirmed that those initial reports, dismissed by Blue Checks as Russian propaganda, were in fact almost certainly true.

* In a 2020 interview with liberal Russian YouTube show host Yury Dud’, Protesavich himself admitted that he spent a year in the zone of the ATO in Donbass and sustained “several injuries” (though he claimed in an exclusively journalistic capacity). (h/t Ivan Katchanovski)

* The Ukrainian newspaper Zerkalo Nedeli, which is not a pro-Kremlin resource by any stretch of the imagination, wrote that he once did PR work for Azov.

* However, as Katchanovski points out, Google searches fail to show any of his credited photos/publications from that conflict.

* British journalist and filmmaker Jake Hanrahan: “He did more than that. He fought with a Belarus unit that fought alongside Azov. He was even shot in the chest on the battlefield. … He told it to my friend in person. My friend even has footage of him lifting his shirt to show the scar.”

* However, he did appear on the cover of “Black Sun”, Azov’s flagship magazine. That seems to go beyond a purely “journalistic” level of embedment.

* At this point, Azov leader Andriy Biletsky himself confirmed that Protasevich was “with them”, appearing to imply in a non-military capacity but without stating so explicitly: “Roman, together with Azov and other military units, fought against the occupation of Ukraine. He was with us near Shyrokyne, where he was wounded. But his weapon as a journalist wasn’t a gun, but the word.”

* So perhaps Protasevich was just a journalist (who produced no known journalism during that period) and an occasional cover model for Azov. But it does then beg the question of why he appeared in uniform in Azov parades. (h/t Volodymyr Ishchenko)

Full VK album. (Parade after the recapture of Mariupol).

* Interview from his own father, who said that he “was on the territory of Donbass in 2014 and fought on the side of the Ukrainian Army.”

* Now that Azov has become somewhat unhandshakeworthy in the West, some of its members and former members have sought to distance themselves from its “Nazi” associations. That is, its imagery are really all just ancient Slavic symbols, and only 10% of its contingent were Nazis.

Here is Protasevich selfie in a swastika-themed T-shirt.

* Komsomolskaya Pravda’s Alexander Kots has published an article and a further bunch of photos on his Telegram, which were taken from Protasevich’s phone after his arrest.

Incidentally, that guy next to him is called Stanislav Goncharov, he fought in Azov from 2014-16 and was nicknamed “Terror Machine” (which he tattooed onto his skull). Some time after returning to Belarus, he got a prison sentence, not for fighting in a foreign country, but for “hooliganism, incitement to racial, ethnic or religious hatred, robbery and possession of pornography for the purpose of distribution via the Internet.”

Just your normal everyday journalistic work:

But the ultimate clincher is a photo that links Protasevich (right)…

… to a soldier with his face scrubbed out who appears in a 2015 interview given to the Belarusian news site Nasha Niva by a soldier with the moniker “Kim.” In that interview, he reveals that he served in the Belarusian “Pahonia Detachment” of the Azov Battalion, and speaks candidly of his reasons for joining the conflict.

Every volunteer who came to the war has his own reasons. I was no exception. And there are a lot of reasons for these.

Firstly, Ukrainian blood also flows in me, since my distant relatives were Ukrainians.

Secondly, blood scores with the communists. Many innocent people were killed, thrown into prisons and exiled. This grief did not pass my family. And now Russia, as the legal successor of the “sovok”, is showing aggression and rolling into the “red abyss”.

Thirdly, the war is being fought not only for Ukraine, but also for Belarus. If you do not stop the Russian Putin horde now, then our country may be next. The buildup of the military power of the Russian Federation, including in Belarus, is a clear evidence of this.

There is another interview with “Kim” at Focus.ua from the same year, where he largely retreads the same lines. He notes that his mother opposed his decision to go to Donbass (“although she is a Belarusian, having grown up in Russia, she is close to the Russian World”).

 

This is the data we have to date – and it is quite at odds with the picture of Protasevich that has been painted by the Western media.

Does it make a difference?

Well, yes, I think it does. It’s the difference in narrative between “idealistic pro-democratic journalism helping people organize peaceful protests against dictatorship”, with Leonid Bershidsky being representative in this respect:

There’s a world of difference between a dissident such as Pratasevich, who has opposed the Lukashenko regime since high school and whose “crime” was to help run an anti-Lukashenko Telegram channel, and a fugitive intelligence service employee with government secrets such as Snowden.

… and “Neo-Nazi militant doxing policemen and threatening reprisals against them” (a combination that would put you away behind bars in well nigh any country).

Unsurprisingly, the Western media has opted for the former and will not brook engagement with the latter, with the one notable mention of Protasevich’s Azov connection being scrubbed from the online version.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. JimDandy says:

    Born in Minsk, moved to Poland as a young adult, ended up fighting in a Neo-Nazi regiment in the Ukrainian National Guard against Russians… there’s obviously a lot I don’t understand. This old Guardian article only made me realize that more:

    “I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia,” said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. “But Putin’s not even a Russian. Putin’s a Jew.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

    https://www.criterion.com/films/28895-come-and-see

    • LOL: Yevardian
  3. So, Protasevich served with Azov battalion. Isn’t it natural? Where else would scum serve except with other scum?

    • Agree: Aedib
  4. Mersaux says:

    Maybe the EU isn’t air blockading Belarus for imprisoning this guy (they didnt impose sanctions when Belarus, jailed up countless other demonstrators). Maybe the EU is air-blockading Belarus, due to the fake bomb threats

    • Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl
  5. songbird says:

    People with scalp tattoos would make an interesting study.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  6. @songbird

    People with scalp tattoos would make an interesting study.

    Yes, for psychiatrists.

    • Replies: @songbird
  7. @Mersaux

    Or maybe they are pissed off because this guy was important or because they feel humiliated by Belarus KGB. Or more probably : they have understood that Belarus is going full Israel, that Belarus secret services will now hunt this ” opposition ” all across Europe like mossad did for Nazis after WW II and they will loose their 5th column in Belarus. Cherry on the cake : this will bring Belarus and Russia closer, which is more than they can emotionally endure . All those reasons can explain their hysteria.

  8. Roman Protasevich is what AP and Mr Hack wish they were. 😂

    It’s worth pointing out that this Nazi militant had no problems with Belorussian authorities, despite his history of killing Russians in Donbass, and only got in trouble after moving against Lukashenka. Nobody in Belarus was prosecuted for fighting on the side of Ukrainian regime, but they did imprison some LDNR volunteers.

    This is at its core an attempt by crazy dictator to silence the opposition. It just so happens that opposition includes the Nazis.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • LOL: Morton's toes
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  9. Mr. Hack says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Nah, I’d rather be an armchair warrior like you, Felix. I just got through watching “The Courier” a great cold war spy yarn. It confirms in my mind that sovok sympathizers like you are way nutso-kooky. 🙂

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  10. Roman’s aspirations to be the next Nalvany may be a mite stillborn.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  11. @Daniel Chieh

    I am LMAO’ing that it’s not inconceivable that we’ll go from …

    [MORE]

    to …

    to …

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  12. Beckow says:

    The story doesn’t add up. One would not call Minsk to threaten a Ryanair flight from Athens to Vilnius. Unless you wanted Luka to do what he did. Protasevich is not important enough, they could have gotten him by simpler means. It seems more about making sure that Luka lands the plane in Minsk.

    First we get Navalny with his Novitchok that mysteriously didn’t hurt anyone else on the plane. They sent him back as a sacrificial lamb and nothing happens. Kiev arrests the opposition and shuts down its media, again nothing. I get a sense that someone is trying to escalate and it is not going very well. So they clumsily up the ante.

    This is probably just the beginning. They will not stop until they get their pound of flesh.

  13. Max Payne says:

    What I read here is pretty much all I know about this nice young gentleman.

    Probably a facilitator/co-conspirator to that assassination attempt against the Belorussian president.

    Attempts on a head of state are no lolacaust that’s for sure. Going from a non-entity to a person of interest that fast….

    It’s the only reason you’d go balls deep like that and force a civilian plane down so publicly. Some information he has is of importance to root out all traitors.

    That or Belarus could be legitimately retarded. Eastern Europe, it’s got that gift…..

  14. S says:

    Post WWII the whole ‘Nazi’ symbolism thing, besides being cult like, is a poison pill for any identity preservation movement. I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

    Because National Socialism evolved in Germany, and to a certain extent is probably part of their identity, the Germans (of Germany proper) probably have the most difficulty dealing with that.

    For everyone else, there’s not much excuse. Generally, forget symbols and uniforms, just dress in your normal street clothes

    It’s bad enough you see stuff like that in the Anglosphere and Western Europe, where almost everybody has a relative that fought against Germany in WWII. It’s more egregious still for obvious reasons (ie Eastern colonization aspect of WWII) for Slavics to link to NS symbolism.

    If there were not already at least some stupid enough to adopt NS imagery, the powers that be would no doubt find and support those who would, something they almost certainly do anyhow, to both simultaneously use nationalism and discredit it..ie the members of the Azov Battallion?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @fnn
  15. @Anatoly Karlin

    Now, why would Russia want to pick a fight with Europe over this shit? IMO Russia is more likely to join European sanctions on Belarus.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  16. @Felix Keverich

    Well it has energetically supported Belarus to date.

    Having the Belarus – EU relationship drop from cold to freezing would be very good for Russia, assuming it is set on accelerating integration.

    I don’t even exclude that Russia played some behind the scenes role (as Dominic Raab suggested), if so, it was a brilliant move.

    • Agree: AP, Yevardian
  17. @Anatoly Karlin

    Lukashenko’s behavior is objectively outrageous. And not because of some international norms, but because as a client he should not be allowed to pull stunts like this without consulting the Kremlin. And I’m 100% certain that Putin would not have approved of it, had he been consulted.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
    • Disagree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @demografie
  18. Fantastic. A perfectly just and valid reason for renditioning the vermin, and locking him up for life.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  19. This begs some serious questions on Lukashenko. While people who served under DNR were arrested and jailed in Belarus. None of the Belarussian Azovite Neonazis were arrested. Few years later, these Neonazis stage a coup against Bulba the Dictator and Ukraine enacts sanctions against Belarus.

    Well done I guess… what kind of a cunning plan is this?

  20. East Slavic men have a strange phenotype. They either look like gangsters and stone cold killers with a defined face, or they look flappy with a chubby face. There’s very little in between.

    Bronze Age Pervert is one of the few Russian men i’ve seen who are good looking but don’t look like gangster who’ll firebomb your house for looking at his sister..

    Though East Slavic women however…God’s gift to men. Russian women need to have 10 babies each. Especially girls like Kristina Pimenova. I can’t for the life me think why the Nazis believed Russians to be untermensch. How could any race with such beautiful women be subhuman?

    https://www.instagram.com/kristinapimenova/?hl=en

  21. Can “Terror Machine” not use a pair of scissors to cut off his dangling straps or, at least, tape them up?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  22. @Caspar Von Everec

    Naziism is an ideology that prescribes the domination of Teutons over the Slavs. In this ideology, smaller nations get some ease like the Czechs, Croats, West Ukrainian of Halychyna, they are to be Germanised.

    I also think that the Nordic looking Russian women would be used as breeding machines had the Nazis won. But ultimately, the ideology is less about race but more about control and domination.

  23. UNIT472 says:

    An Azov Battalion relationship may not have quite the cachet of the Pope’s Swiss Guard but it also isn’t the equivalent of the cadre of Treblinka so it does not justify yanking Roman Protasevich off his flight to Lithuania. He wasn’t Adolph Eichmann and thus liable to be spirited out of Argentina to reappear in a bullet proof glass box in Tel Aviv to await his hanging. He wasn’t even Mir Aimal Kansi who shot up the CIA HQ parking lot in 1993 and was then captured in Pakistan and brought back to the US to face trial and execution.

    If Lukashenko could hang some war crimes on Protasevich or even just dirty him up in the Western press with the pictures Karlin posted with this article he would have been well advised to have tried that first. Sending fighters up to force down an Irish airliner to arrest him was wildly disproportionate to the importance of the man.

  24. AP says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Roman Protasevich is what AP and Mr Hack wish they were

    No, I’m not like you Felix, with your dreams if mass death.

    I’ve consistently condemned Azov for their Satanism and neo-Nazism.

  25. AP says:
    @S

    Bolshevism was nearly as bad; people used to Bolshevik symbols (ubiquitous in Eastern Europe until recently) don’t experience the level of horror at Nazi symbols that Westerners have, even though their ancestors suffered far more from Nazis than did those of Western Europeans and Americans. Thus the disconnect. Several years ago I saw a guy casually walking down Tverskaya (the main street in central Moscow) wearing a swastika t-shirt.

  26. 216 says: • Website
    @AP

    “Bolshevik” only has meaning in reference to “Menshevik”.

    You mean “Jews”, and there’s no need to construct silly epicycles.

  27. fnn says:
    @S

    The State Dept and the Jews who run the Ukraine obviously don’t have a problem with since it’s been part of the local scene since the 2014 coup. And Ukraine is probably the only country in the world where “white supremacy” is not taboo. I wonder how they celebrate St. Floyd Day in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
    , @S
  28. melanf says:
    @Caspar Von Everec

    East Slavic men have a strange phenotype

    East Slavic men have completely different phenotypes (and different origins)

    And here is a random photo of the crowd – in my opinion, quite ordinary faces of both men and women.

    All men are gopiniki and women are beauties – this seems to me to be urban legends and not reality

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Vishnugupta
  29. @AP

    Bolshevism was nearly as bad; people used to Bolshevik symbols (ubiquitous in Eastern Europe until recently) don’t experience the level of horror at Nazi symbols that Westerners have, even though their ancestors suffered far more from Nazis than did those of Western Europeans and Americans. Thus the disconnect. Several years ago I saw a guy casually walking down Tverskaya (the main street in central Moscow) wearing a swastika t-shirt.

    Try walking in that t-shirt in Prague.

  30. Doesn’t Russia operate some Guantanamo style camp in coldest deepest Siberia for all these NeoNazi terrorists? If it doesn’t it should! And it should try to apprehend them by whatever means anywhere in the world and send them there after some rigorous interrogation. Also, using drones to liquidate them wherever possible shouldn’t be discounted. And sod what the western “partners” have to say about it.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  31. Lukashenko might just kill him using some sort of anti-Nazi justification. What exactly gives you the death penalty in Belarus?

    • Replies: @Aedib
    , @Daniel Chieh
  32. @fnn

    The State Dept and the Jews who run the Ukraine obviously don’t have a problem with since it’s been part of the local scene since the 2014 coup. And Ukraine is probably the only country in the world where “white supremacy” is not taboo. I wonder how they celebrate St. Floyd Day in Ukraine.

    It is a perfectly post-modern situation in Ukraine. Neonazis used as Tonton Macutes against the opponents of oligarchy, in which Jews are heavily represented. But we are talking rich people here. I think regular Jews do suffer from Neonazis though, much like the pro-Russian elements, leftists, Russian speakers etc.

    Somebody in the chain of command, probably Avakov, the Ukrainian Minister of Interior, had the idea to use Neonazi gangs to maintain control. It was not at all bad, Avakov got plenty of unscrupulous fighters to clear of the badly organised vatniks before the latter could get more organised and seize power like they did in Donetsk and Lugansk.

    Obviously, the Nazis are a stink but the State Department and plenty of Western institutions actually support them. They cover for them, by claiming that Nazis in Ukraine is a Russian disinformation narrative.
    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2021/05/26/soros-fund-the-helsinki-committee-and-likely-the-us-embassy-too-all-demanded-the-release-of-neonazi-serhiy-sternenko/

    Incredible!

    • Replies: @AP
  33. @Commentator Mike

    Doesn’t Russia operate some Guantanamo style camp in coldest deepest Siberia for all these NeoNazi terrorists? If it doesn’t it should!

    Guantanamo is a holiday resort compared to Russian prison.

  34. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Sternenko is Right Sector, thus fascist/authoritarian far right, but not a Nazi (those are Azov).

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  35. @AP

    Sternenko is Right Sector, thus fascist/authoritarian far right, but not a Nazi (those are Azov).

    And that’s why he wears Svastone, and carries a portrait of nazi collaborator Shykhevych to 9 May Parade? Not a NAZI… hmmm

    Let me tell you this, banderovites, Right Sector, whatever are Nazis. They are just too timid to go full out with their love for Hitler.

    Also, by your method, Protasevych is a total Nazi.

    • Replies: @AP
  36. @melanf

    Uriah had one of his powerful takes on Slav HBD as well which vaguely lent credence to Caspar’s notions:

    This does not gel with my personal experience, a Russian friend of mine looks much more like Vitalik Buterin.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  37. @Triteleia Laxa

    He might be keeping them dangling in the same reason why truckers, etc sometimes dangle balls behind their car or put stuffed animals in the front bumper.

    • LOL: Triteleia Laxa
  38. @Insomniac Resurrected

    Probably was trying to appease the west by not prosecuting the nazis. But as we know, these things don’t work. He should have thought about what happened to Qadafi after he tried to appease the west.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  39. Aedib says:

    These revelations are very helpful to expose the true nature of Western cultivated and grown “peaceful democracy fighters”. Off-course the Western propaganda machine will hide the true face of this trash. But it will totally discredit the Color Revolution operations across the former USSR. Anyway, this destabilization tool seems already depleted.
    The grotesque example of former Ukraine is a strong deterrence against a new Maidan.

  40. @Дима Трамп

    Probably was trying to appease the west by not prosecuting the nazis. But as we know, these things don’t work. He should have thought about what happened to Qadafi after he tried to appease the west.

    Also, variety of Murican funds and agents of US influence, that were long banned in Russia, operated freely in the dictatorship of Belarus. Maybe this was a case of keep your friends close and enemies closer. Also, since like the 70s the Soviets and their satellites have switched from repressing outright to allowing opposition to function without much repression and repressing marginal elements.

    That is how these Murican NED projects were able to function in Russia and elsewhere in CIS for so long. Navalny is a similar case.

    However, I do not believe Lukashenko and the Belarussian KGB weren’t aware of the situation. I just think that starting with the Ukrainian crisis, they made a point not breaking with Ukraine because it would be to their economic detriment. Obviously, the benefits of this policy have run their course now.

  41. Aedib says:
    @Shortsword

    It would be better to let him wither into a miserable prison existence for the rest of his life.

  42. songbird says:
    @AnonfromTN

    I was thinking first of physiognomists and then of psychometricians, though I suppose it would take a couple of more disciplines.

  43. @Insomniac Resurrected

    After 2014, Luka perceived Russophiles as more threatening than nationalists and Neo-Nazis, hence the subsequent “Litvinizing” policies.

    Probably 2020 will mark a reversal.

    Such flip flops are not uncommon with strongman type leaders, Erdogan flipping against the Gulenists while “rehabilitating” the Kemalists in 2016 is an example that comes to mind.

  44. @Aedib

    The grotesque example of former Ukraine is a strong deterrence against a new Maidan.

    Tell that to this Lithuanian parliamentarian:
    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2021/05/15/zingeris-lithuania-is-paying-a-price-for-wanting-to-turn-belarus-into-ukraine/

    Western policy makers literally think Ukraine is a success. I guess they cannot look at the situation objectively because that would mean admitting defeat.

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  45. @Aedib

    The grotesque example of former Ukraine is a strong deterrence against a new Maidan.

    That’s how many strongmen in post-Soviet space are using it: you either have me, or the country is in deep shit, like Ukraine. I think it’s a false dichotomy. Your country ends up in deep shit only if you bring imperial bootlickers to power, like in Ukraine. If real patriots rule a relatively small country in post-Soviet space, they would keep equidistant from Russia, China, and the Empire, doing business with all but never putting too many eggs into one basket. There are some examples of that (say, Uzbek dictator/president).

    • Agree: Aedib
  46. @Shortsword

    That’d be hilarious. I would become a Lukashenko stan for the irony.

  47. @Insomniac Resurrected

    It is a success in the sense that it is causing chaos and suffering.

    France didn’t get to enjoy a water monopoly in Libya, but otherwise, the Libyan campaign was successful in its core goals. Same with Ukraine.

    Now, this being a partial success may yet prove their undoing.

    • Agree: Aedib
  48. @AnonFromTN

    If real patriots rule a relatively small country in post-Soviet space, they would keep equidistant from Russia, China, and the Empire, doing business with all but never putting too many eggs into one basket.

    Sounds like Aleksander Vucic 🙂

  49. ultratrad says:

    To be honest, that just makes me respect him much more. Most of the Bel. opposition is a mixture of older dissident-type losers and generic liberal zoomers. It is a miracle he grew some spine and actually risked his life for something he believes in.

    Also, it is pathetic how many people with hard-right or otherwise radical political views (you quote some of them here) look for any opportunity to shout ‘Nazi! Nazi!’ at the anti-Russian nationalists. That doesn’t really work and only makes it clear that you agree with the dominant ideology and want to play within its limits (not talking about the blog author here).

  50. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    carries a portrait of nazi collaborator Shykhevych

    Shukhevych wasn’t a Nazi either, and it’s arguable whether he could be defined as a Nazi collaborator (hint: not everyone working with the Germans was a collaborator, review the term). He was, of course, responsible for mass murder.

    Let me tell you this, banderovites, Right Sector, whatever are Nazis

    You like to throw around terms that you apparently don’t even understand.

    Also, by your method, Protasevych is a total Nazi

    That’s a much stronger case. Azovites are neo-Nazis and I recall seeing a photo of Protasevych wearing a swastika.

  51. AP says:
    @Aedib

    Fairy tales about “former” Ukraine becoming grotesque don’t work much beyond those who are already true believers.

  52. Aedib says:
    @AP

    From a geographical point of view: Ukraine (1991) = Crimea + Liberated Donbass + former Ukraine (current Banderastan).
    May be you are right and the “grotesque” concept jus t applies to Maidanuts and Protasevich-like specimens. Normal Ukrainian people should be excluded from the grotesque-concept.

    • Replies: @AP
  53. AP says:
    @Aedib

    Donbas was relatively grotesque (basically the HIV capital of Europe). Crimea was fine, it just wasn’t Ukrainian. Adding “Stan” to “Bandera” is ironic, given that remaining Ukraine is along with Poland and Belarus (former PLC) and the Baltics, the least Muslim-inhabited place in Europe. How about Russia?

    Kiev and Lviv streets are far less grotesque than what ones sees in most Western cities, they are actually quite nice and not grotesque at all. They haven’t gotten worse since Maidan.

  54. @AP

    AP – You have missed my point about Svastone, a Neonazi clothing brand owned by a band member of Sokyra Peruna, an anti-semitic and Neonazi metal band.

    You know, there are many non-Nazi alternatives from the Skinhead scene: Ben Sherman, Fred Perry, Lonesdale.

    Sternenko is Nazi, he wears Nazi brands. And Neonaziim is all about brands and style. Sternenko fits the profile. I am not certain why you try to separate Sternenko from the rest of the subculture he is from.

    If the twerp did not have appearances to uphold, he would likely express his political leanings fully.

    • Replies: @AP
  55. @AP

    Adding “Stan” to “Bandera” is ironic, given that remaining Ukraine is along with Poland and Belarus (former PLC) and the Baltics, the least Muslim-inhabited place in Europe. How about Russia?

    Do you realise that the Turks call many non-muslim countries as stan? Banderstan is completely legitimate.

    • Replies: @AP
  56. @AP

    Fairy tales about “former” Ukraine becoming grotesque don’t work much beyond those who are already true believers.

    Ukraine is not a very viable country to be honest.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Yevardian
  57. @AP

    Shukhevych wasn’t a Nazi either

    LOL. Even lying wiki acknowledges that Shukhevych had a rank of hauptmann in Nazi 201st Schutzmannschaft Battalion:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

    • Replies: @AP
  58. @Insomniac Resurrected

    Ukraine is not a very viable country to be honest.

    Today’s rump Ukraine is a headless chicken still running. The question of viable does not even arise.

  59. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Are you a Turk? Or, are you suggesting that those referring to a “Banderastan” are reflecting a Eurasian or Tatar heritage when doing so?

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  60. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes he was. You must believe that every member of the Red Army fighting against Germany was a Communist and/or Stalinist. Was it the case?

    Was Shukhevych a member of the Nazi Party? No. Did he follow Nazi (versus Banderist) ideology? No. So clearly he wasn’t a Nazi. He was a sometime ally of the Nazis.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  61. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    You have missed my point about Svastone, a Neonazi clothing brand owned by a band member of Sokyra Peruna, an anti-semitic and Neonazi metal band

    So everyone who wears this clothing brand is a Nazi? You must believe that everyone who enjoys Ben and Jerry’s ice cream or watches American football is a BLM fanatic.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  62. @AP

    He was a sometime ally of the Nazis.

    Sounds so convincing: being an officer in a Nazi military unit means being “sometime ally of the Nazis”. Using the same logic one might claim that Stalin was a “sometime ally of the Bolsheviks”.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
    , @AP
  63. @AP

    So everyone who wears this clothing brand is a Nazi? You must believe that everyone who enjoys Ben and Jerry’s ice cream or watches American football is a BLM fanatic.

    Dude, that is a Nazi clothing brand, an explicitly Nazi brand. Which part of this do you not understand? It makes a political statement, and was established to make a political statement.

    And quite frankly, if NFL or Ben and Jerry’s decide to support BLM, they are also making a political statement but Ben and Jerrys was not established with the purpose of putting political statements on its products, unlike Svastone.

    Let me paraphrase the mayor of Kooev: Sternenko coloured himself into the colours he wanted to colour himself. I do not wear Svastone because I’m not a Nazi, and I personally do not like American companies making progressive political statements, and so I will not consume their products either.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Yevardian
  64. @AnonFromTN

    It is like saying, doing it one time does not make you gay.

  65. @AP

    Are you a Turk? Or, are you suggesting that those referring to a “Banderastan” are reflecting a Eurasian or Tatar heritage when doing so?

    In South Africa they had bantustans, are they Turks?

  66. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Sounds so convincing: being an officer in a Nazi military unit means being “sometime ally of the Nazis

    Well, he left the Nazis and turned his guns against them so sometime ally would fit. He used the Nazis when he believed doing so served his cause and then dumped them when it was no longer the case.

    Using the same logic one might claim that Stalin was a “sometime ally of the Bolsheviks”.

    No, but using the same logic one would realistically conclude that Stalin was a sometime ally of Hitler. Which he was.

  67. Aedib says:
    @AP

    Don’t be buthurt. “stan” come from the ancient Persian language and means “land of”. Today is ironically used to describe a country with some bizarre behavior. E.g. Anglostan to refer to the U.K. just when some strange event occur there. Even British jokingly use “Anglostan”.
    Respect to grotesqueness, well, it may be a subjective appreciation. I think the “culture” arising from Maidan and the associated circus is considered grotesque in most East Ukraine (not just in Donbass). It is considered grotesque in most former USSR and in many Eastern Europe countries. Some Western Europeans also laugh on these strange phenomena arising on TV from nowadays Kiev. Western Ukrainians may consider these rituals as the proof of their civilization superiority but sane people tend to show contempt to torch parades, forbidding a language used in a half country and worshiping Nazis.

    How about Russia?

    Whataboutism.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  68. @Aedib

    Anglostan

    I like formerly great formerly Britain better.

  69. AP says:
    @Aedib

    Don’t be buthurt. “stan” come from the ancient Persian language and means “land of”

    Yes, it is generally associated with Muslim places. So applying it to one of the world’s least Muslim places is funny. Especially when it’s done by some from a country that is around 10% Muslim, embedded within a Eurasian Union with some Muslim countries.

    E.g. Anglostan to refer to the U.K. just when some strange event occur there

    UK has quite a few Pakistanis nowadays, doesn’t it?

    I think the “culture” arising from Maidan and the associated circus is considered grotesque in most East Ukraine (not just in Donbass). It is considered grotesque in most former USSR and in many Eastern Europe countries. Some Western Europeans also laugh on these strange phenomena arising on TV from nowadays Kiev

    Culture of generally clean streets with normally dressed male and female rather than non binary European people who are likely to be regular churchgoers is “grotesque?” Occasional nonviolent parades of a thousand or two people with torches, in a city of 3.5 million, are grotesque? But BLM riots or kneeling before an icon of George Floyd are not grotesque. Paris has not become grotesque. Being HIV and abortion capital of Europe as Donbas and parts of eastern Ukraine are, is not grotesque. Lol.

    Whataboutism

    Whataboutism is a very appropriate response to hypocrisy.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  70. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Dude, that is a Nazi clothing brand, an explicitly Nazi brand

    Their website appears to be pro pagan and generically far right, rather than specifically and narrowly Nazi.

    What they say about themselves:

    “Flutter the wings Mother-Sva and calls us, to stand for our land, as we are Rusich!

    Standing on the Stone, where the runes of our victories are carved. Weave lace of the fate of our kind and harden the Steel, from which we forge our armor.

    Let these clothes protect and inspire you in battle, give warm in winter and cool in summer.

    Let these clothes to be like armor of knights in glorious past – noble and strong.

    We inserted our soul in it. Flutter the wings Mother-Slava…“

    :::::

    If Sternenko was a Nazi he would have joined Azov which is the home for real Nazis. Instead he joined a far right organisation represented in parliament by an Orthodox Jew. But he is a Nazi because of his brand of shirt lol.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  71. S says:
    @fnn

    I wonder how they celebrate St. Floyd Day in Ukraine.

    For now, they may well not, but, just give the US NGO’s some time.

  72. Aedib says:
    @AP

    Superb exercise of whataboutism. Whataboutism is an intent to deflect attention to another subject. But it is unable to cover the deviated behavior of Protasevich-like specimens. This mob is far from normal.
    Naming Floyd and non-binary specimens doesn´t cancel the existence of Maidanut freaks.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  73. Aedib says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    This Buterin guy looks like an extreme slim version of Adrei Kirylenko which, in turn, looks like a typical Slavic beast.

  74. @Mr. Hack

    You’ve got him to a tee. In fact not so much an armchair Sovok warrior, more a latter day armchair Felix Dzerzhinsky ( Behind every Donetsk Militia soldier, there will be an Old Sovok in an armchair, throwing empty Vodka bottles )

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  75. AP says:
    @Aedib

    Superb exercise of whataboutism. Whataboutism is an intent to deflect attention to another subject.

    What I posted was comparing so-called “Maidanut freaks” to the rest of the world. They turn out to be fairly normal.

    You referred to post-Maidan Ukraine as “grotesque.” It is, instead, a normal and nice place.

    This mob is far from normal.

    Here is the infamous recent march in honor of the Galician SS Division:

    Let’s compare to a Western Pride parade, which must be normal to you:

    Yes, Maidan is what is grotesque and “far from normal” in your world. Good to know 🙂

    • Replies: @Aedib
  76. @Verymuchalive

    If you want to go there – the Ukraine is more of a “sovok” polity than the DNR.

    • Replies: @AP
  77. Aedib says:
    @AP

    Let’s compare to a Western Pride parade, which must be normal to you:

    This is an old trick known as “ad-hominem fallacy”. It tries to produce a visceral reaction and/or to produce an aggressions exchange to deflect the attention to another subject. It is too used.

    It is, instead, a normal and nice place.

    Here is the infamous recent march in honor of the Galician SS Division:

    So, you consider normal and nice a march in honor of the Galician SS Division. Thanks for proving my point.

    But my main point is another. Maidanuts are not just Ukrainians. Protasevich and Navalny can be also considered Maidanuts, even if they are not Ukrainians. By Maidanut I refer to Western cultivated specimens which are sent to disseminate chaos in their countries. Their main characteristic is that they are Western sucking liberals and the secondary ad-hoc characteristic depends on the target-country. E.g. a Ukrainian Maidanut mixes West worshiping with Bandera idolization and a visceral hate to Russia. A Russian Maidanut, in addition to the common Western sucking footprint have a dumb desire to a 1990s type neoliberalism and hate to the defense of Russian national interests. A Belarrussian Maidanut mixes the Western sucking signature with the desire to down Batka and a bizarre aspiration to mimic the failed post 2014 Ukraine.
    Freaks cultivated by the West like Pussy Riot, Bandera fans, Navaly and co are still considered freaks by most sane people.

    • Agree: annamaria
    • Replies: @Passer by
    , @AP
  78. Passer by says:
    @Aedib

    Freaks cultivated by the West like Pussy Riot, Bandera fans, Navaly and co are still considered freaks by most sane people.

    Funny thing is russian government media is full of praise of Manisha aka “Russia is a hypocrite country”, “russian racists”, “russian women, don’t have children”, “muh LGBT” on Eurovision these days. Muh “Our (Tajik..) Manisha is on Eurovision”, Government (Sovok?) media says, in unison with russophobes ala Medusa and Open Society types.

    There is something Sovok in Russia – it makes one step in the right direction, then one step in the wrong direction. Same with Putin’s BS to support only безотцовщина, but not regular families in need.

    This may work if the country was not under attack, but for a declining country (both as share of world gdp and as share of world population) in Cold War conditions, i don’t know about that.

  79. The most interesting aspect of this case is that Uncle Sasha felt strong enough to do it. Belarus is now safe under the umbrella of Russo-Sinic protection. The GAE, suddenly aware of the colossal, unavoidable challenge posed by China, is keen to get Russia on side. A little late for that guys.

  80. Dmitry says:

    And more seriously geopolitics, while Western media was distracted with this nonsense, Lukashenko had also signed the military co-operation agreement with Aliev, and probably could be sending weapons to Baku today.

    Azerbaijan and Belarus discussed prospects for the development of military-technical cooperation

    On May 18, the Minister of Defense of the Republic of Azerbaijan, Colonel General Zakir Hasanov met with a delegation led by the Minister of Defense of the Republic of Belarus, Lieutenant General Viktor Khrenin. The delegation is paying an official visit to our country.

    At first, the Belarusian delegation visited the Alley of Honors, laid wreaths and flowers at the grave of the national leader of our people Heydar Aliyev and paid tribute to his memory.

    The guests also visited the Alley of Shehids (Martyrs), where they laid wreaths and flowers at the graves of the heroic sons of the Motherland, who sacrificed their lives for the independence and territorial integrity of the country.

    Then an official welcoming ceremony was held at the Ministry of Defense. The guest passed along the guard of honor and national anthems of both countries were performed. The guest signed “Book of Honor” in accordance with the protocol.

    Colonel General Z. Hasanov emphasized that the close and friendly relations of the heads of state rely on the traditions based on sincere and mutual trust between our countries and peoples. Azerbaijan attaches great importance to cooperation with Belarus in all areas, including in the military sphere. There is a great potential for the development of Azerbaijani-Belarusian cooperation in the military-technical and military-educational spheres. These relations are developing successfully.

    Touching upon political and security issues in the region, the Minister of Defense of Azerbaijan noted that our countries take an active part on various international platforms, supporting and protecting mutual interests.

    Colonel General Zakir Hasanov noted that the Patriotic War, which began with a counter-offensive operation ended with a glorious victory of the Azerbaijan Army under the command of the President of the Republic of Azerbaijan, Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, Mr. Ilham Aliyev. Our lands were liberated from the occupation. Informing the guest about the successful military operations carried out by the Azerbaijan Army, the Minister expressed gratitude to his counterpart for the position of Belarus during the 44-day war.

    The guest, noting that this cooperation is based on friendly relations between the leaders of states, once again brought to the attention that Belarus supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan.
    During the meeting, issues of joint activities in the field of military, military-technical, and military-educational cooperation, organization of experts’ visits to exchange experience and other aspects of mutual interest were discussed.

    Following the meeting, the ministers have signed a Bilateral Cooperation Plan between the Ministries of Defense of Azerbaijan and Belarus.

    https://mod.gov.az/en/news/azerbaijan-and-belarus-discussed-prospects-for-the-development-of-military-technical-cooperation-video-35922.html

    Lukashenko has been able to maintain a military industry in Belarus, and they were selling gps guided rocket artillery to Azerbaijan (https://warspot.ru/12144-lora-i-polonez-novoe-oruzhie-azerbaydzhana ) – this Polonez (RSZO) which Belarus developed probably in collaboration with China, and we saw it being used in the videos of the war in recent war in Karabakh in October 2020.

    Their colorway was camouflage in Belarus, but Aliev ordered some more pimp colorway with red caps on launchers.

    When we compare Lukashenko and Aliev – Aliev has been much more successful in “multivector external policy”, than Lukashenko (who has only had some successes in attracting investment from China, while generally can be trolled by Poland inside his own country).

    This is because Azerbaijan has oil money, and access to sea. Sea access is one of the most important boosters to the chance of a success with “multivector external policy”.

  81. Yevardian says:
    @AnonFromTN

    This isn’t an option for many small countries, see Armenia. Even if that Saakashvili type-figure (no, I can’t even bring myself to type his name) wasn’t elected and fucked up everything, there has never been or in honestly never will be any option other than Armenia to cooperate with Russian and Iranian interests as best it can. Small countries don’t get choices in foreign policy, not real ones, anyway.
    Luka’s and the Baltics’ behavior is perfectly rational considering their geography and past.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  82. Yevardian says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Ukraine has plentiful natural resources, access to the ocean, and upon independence had and a well-educated population and the most concentrated industry of any SSR. There’s no reason it couldn’t have been successful, if not for decades of non-stop looting, from both pro and anti Russia forces.. a few of which have changed that tack several times, Tymoshenko etc.

    Including Crimea and the East with the new state was definitely a curse for the country, I think all concerned would be better off if they were Russian from 1991.

    • Replies: @AP
  83. Yevardian says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Who even cares, Hitler long left the realm of actual history and became a practically mythological figure a long time ago. His real beliefs have no bearing on today’s events, it only matters what people project at this point. If khokhols want to parade around with such symbols and worship a leader who dreamed of making them helots forever, good luck to them.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Coconuts
  84. AP says:
    @Aedib

    “Let’s compare to a Western Pride parade, which must be normal to you:”

    This is an old trick known as “ad-hominem fallacy”

    False. Your mischaracterization here is noted.

    You claimed Maidan people are “abnormal.” Abnormality exists in relationship to normality. If Maidan Ukraine is normal, something else must be normal. Presumably, the West. In the West, pride parades are normal (as evidenced by their popularity and widespread support by the establishment such as government and corporations), as are BLM peaceful protests.

    So this Maidan parade according to you is abnormal:

    While this Pride parade is normal, according to you:

    I note that you did not dispute this, instead you chose to deflect by making a false claim about “ad-hominem fallacy.”

    “It is, instead, a normal and nice place.

    Here is the infamous recent march in honor of the Galician SS Division:”

    So, you consider normal and nice a march in honor of the Galician SS Division. Thanks for proving my point.

    You have taken two statements I wrote in different places in response to different claims, and placed them together. Were you projecting when you mentioned tricks?

    I wrote: “You referred to post-Maidan Ukraine as “grotesque.” It is, instead, a normal and nice place..”

    It indeed is. And you did refer to this normal and nice place as grotesque.

    You then wrote about a mob being, in your words, “far from normal.”

    In response I posted a picture of such a mob, “far from normal” in your opinion, and compered it to a Western parade group. Presumably normal, in your world. I reposted the pictures above.

    Anyone can judge which group is grotesque and which is not. Which parade is more normal than another.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  85. AP says:
    @Yevardian

    If khokhols want to parade around with such symbols and worship a leader who dreamed of making them helots forever, good luck to them.

    I agree that Nazism among Ukrainians is stupid, but Stalinism among Eastern Ukrainians and Russians is no better. Worshipping some Caucasian who killed millions of them.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  86. AP says:
    @Yevardian

    There’s no reason it couldn’t have been successful, if not for decades of non-stop looting, from both pro and anti Russia forces

    It inherited a comprador Soviet elite who consisted of local Communists who were too stupid to make it in Moscow and were stuck in Ukraine; hardly people committed to Ukraine’s development. Nothing good would come of having such creatures in charge.

    Including Crimea and the East with the new state was definitely a curse for the country, I think all concerned would be better off if they were Russian from 1991.

    Agree. Ukraine would have been a much more successful country if it had its current borders in 1991.

  87. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Aedib

    Whataboutism is okay when properly utilized. The political science study known as comparative politics, is whataboutism under the guise of academia.

    This could be the shittiest attempt at taking down a whataboutism:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-05-25/lukashenko-s-diversion-of-ryanair-flight-has-no-western-precedent?sref=3HD2Fyvy

    • Replies: @Aedib
  88. @Dmitry

    Belarus has oil money. They are buying Russian oil at domestic prices, and resell to Europe at international prices. That’s $5 billion worth of energy subsidies per year. $100 billion since 2000. This money is used to subsidise inefficient manufacturing enterprises in Belarus, that would die off otherwise.

    Lukashenka is a moron for wasting his petroleum windfall, and for thinking he can balance Russian influence with Chinese industrial park, when his whole economy is a house of cards built on Kremlin largesse.

    • Replies: @demografie
    , @zn
  89. @AP

    Their website appears to be pro pagan and generically far right, rather than specifically and narrowly Nazi.

    The website needs to uphold appearances otherwise it would be banned in the Czech Republic or Germany, and they need to make business. Repressed religions go crypto in conditions of persecution.

    Paganism has a lot to do with anti-Semitism, became you known Christianity and Jews.

    Check out the logo of Sokyra Peruna on their Ukrainian wiki
    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0

    Check out their old concert in Lugansk:

    Everybody’s Siegheiling (TM)
    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2019/03/17/everybody-is-sieg-heiling/

  90. @AP

    Stalinism among Eastern Ukrainians and Russians is no better.

    I do not know that many ardent Stalinists. Stalin won the war, he got shit done.

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  91. While this Pride parade is normal, according to you:

    My theory about Pride Parades is that they always end with little children looking at naked perverts. Prove me wrong, anyone!

  92. Coconuts says:
    @Yevardian

    The mythical, symbolic value of Hitler does seem to be important in this.

    This got me thinking that while Marxism is one outgrowth from the German idealist tradition in philosophy, Nazism was shaped and influenced by others; one seems to foster or point towards the other as a reaction to it. Radical Marxist activism with an ethnic dimension (say, the radical Marxists are disproportionately seen as belonging to particular ethnic groups) is probably even more likely to produce this reaction.

    From what I’ve been told Marx was also fond of using selected aspects of Christian/Biblical imagery in his rhetoric. So, that a reaction to legacy Sovok Marxist thinking could end up expressed through related but contrary tendencies in German thought is maybe not surprising, including the anti-Christian Nietzsche stuff a lot of neo-pagans seem to be into. Hitler and the SS could stand in as convenient avatars for all of this.

    There is at least one mainstream Western historian in the field of Ukrainian history (I think he is Jewish as well) who makes a case related to this, that Soviet activities in Ukraine in the early 30s shaped the attitude of part of the Ukrainian population to the Nazis when they arrived.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  93. Mikhail says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Stalin won the war, he got shit done.

    The people comprising the USSR won the war despite Stalin. Having great natural and human resources can overcome brutally inept leadership. There’s good reason why there’s a limit of pro-Stalin sentiment in Russia and other parts of the former USSR.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  94. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Coconuts

    There is at least one mainstream Western historian in the field of Ukrainian history (I think he is Jewish as well) who makes a case related to this, that Soviet activities in Ukraine in the early 30s shaped the attitude of part of the Ukrainian population to the Nazis when they arrived.

    Late 1930s for western (former Habsburg occupied) Ukraine. That’s when it first became part of the USSR.

  95. Mikhail says: • Website

    More details on Roman’s partner:

    http://franak.org/about

  96. @AP

    Toppling Suvorov statues is quintessentially sovok. This is what Ukraine does. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sovok-ukraine-topples-suvorov-statue/

    Azovites have whined that DNR residents have much more gun freedoms than they do. Restrictions on gun rights are sovok.

    [MORE]

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
    , @Mikhail
  97. @Mikhail

    The people comprising the USSR won the war despite Stalin. Having great natural and human resources can overcome brutally inept leadership. There’s good reason why there’s a limit of pro-Stalin sentiment in Russia and other parts of the former USSR.

    Actually, Stalin was more competent than any of the latter Tsars, who haven’t won a single conflict with a European power since the Napoleonic Wars because they did not keep pace with the innovations of the Industrial Revolution.

    It is not without reason that there are two Great Patriotic Wars, and WWI or the Crimean War are not called Patriotic.

    Stalin was a brutal dictator, my Ukrainian great grandfather was sent camping in 1937, and then served in the Shtrafbat. The post-War Stalinist regime in Czechoslovakia jailed my German great grandfather. I have no love lost for Stalin or the Commies. But I do not deny that Stalin got shit done.

    • Replies: @AP
  98. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Toppling Suvorov statues is quintessentially sovok. This is what Ukraine does. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sovok-ukraine-topples-suvorov-statue/

    Trying to distance Ukraine’s legacy as a part of an Empire that stifled its own national aspirations by replacing a statue of an Empire builder with a pro-Russian Ukrainian Cossack leader is sovok? Sure seems that you’re grasping for straws here, Anatoly?

    And is gun control in Ukraine really that much more restrictive than in Russia?

  99. Aedib says:
    @AP

    The existence of LGTB freaks in Western Europe doesn´t cancels the existence of Bandera freaks in Western Ukraine. Frankly, your whataboutism is quite infantile. You can do it better.

    • Replies: @AP
  100. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Actually, Stalin was more competent than any of the latter Tsars, who haven’t won a single conflict with a European power since the Napoleonic Wars

    Russia only had one conflict with the major European powers between the Napoleonic Wars and World War I. It lost a fight against three world powers.

    During World War I, Russia defeated Austria-Hungary. The Ottoman Empire was arguably a European power; it, too, was defeated by Russia during the First World War. Russia had also defeated the Turks in the 19th century, of course.

    But I do not deny that Stalin got shit done.

    What he got done was squander tens of millions of people in order to defeat a much smaller enemy. He was a great gift for Russia’s rivals.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
  101. a pro-Russian Ukrainian Cossack leader?

    Why rename it? The School was founded in Kharkov and nobody had a problem with Suvorov. This was under Soviet times when there already was Ukraine. This nativisation is African.

    Besides the point. Ivan Bohun probably thought of himself as a Russian ethnically.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. Hack
  102. Aedib says:
    @Mikhail

    Bershidsky is the utmost example of a liberal Jew always ready to spit Russia and lick the West.

  103. Mr. Hack says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Why rename it?

    Isn’t that rather obvious? I’ve already given you an answer above, “Trying to distance Ukraine’s legacy as a part of an Empire that stifled its own national aspirations by replacing a statue of an Empire builder with a pro-Russian Ukrainian Cossack”

    BTW, the Kharkiv Imperialists, although probably just fine with the Surov brand, did nothing and held no demonstrations against the renaming project.

    Trying to make a big deal out of it today is highly laughable. 🙂

  104. Mr. Hack says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Ivan Bohun probably thought of himself as a Russian ethnically.

    That’s about as ridiculous a notion as some Czech today of mixed Ukrainian, Czech and German ancestry thinking of himself as being a Russian too! 🙂 🙂

  105. AP says:
    @Aedib

    The existence of LGTB freaks in Western Europe doesn´t cancels the existence of Bandera freaks in Western Ukraine

    LGTB activists are not freaks within the West. They are normal here. They do not merely exist, they are celebrated and exalted in the West, just as much if not more so than Bandera is celebrated in post-Maidan Ukraine. Don’t imply otherwise.

    You mentioned alleged Maidan Ukrainian abnormality, which as I already explained always exists in context with normality. So if Maidan Ukrainians are abnormal, then the West which is globally dominant must be normal according to the logic you brought to the discussion.

    So who is more abnormal, the “Banderists” or the mainstream Western trannies? Twice, I posted pictures of each group and asked you which group was more normal than the other. Twice, you refused to directly answer this question.

    That you refuse to answer this simple question is very telling. Your deflection onto topics such as whataboutism doesn’t change that.

    quite infantile

    And now here comes your ad hominem. Another deflection.

  106. Aedib says:

    And now here comes your ad hominem. Another deflection.

    What is infantile is your whataboutism, which include pics of LGTB freaks and Ukrainian girls with flowers (some of them will end in a puticlub of Marbella, because this is the only future that Maidan offers to them). Not you.

  107. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Toppling Suvorov statues is quintessentially sovok.

    This would also make Irish nationalists “Sovoks.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson%27s_Pillar

    Most non-Soviet countries practice gun control.

    It is rather odd to describe a place that is more church-going and which has erased itself of Soviet symbols and banned the Communist Party as “Sovok.” If you focus on repression as the measure of Sovok-ness – was Franco’s Spain or various South American rightist governments also Sovok? They are far more repressive than is Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  108. DNS says:

    Stanislav “Terror Machine” Goncharov’s back tatoos are interesting to say the least

    The <a href = "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS#Formation_and_initial_organization&quot;30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarusian) (German: 30. Waffen-Grenadierdivision der SS (weißruthenische Nr. 1)) was a short-lived German Waffen SS infantry division formed largely from Byelorussian, Russian and Ukrainian personnel of the Schutzmannschaft-Brigade Siegling in August 1944 at Warsaw in the General Government. The division was transferred to southeastern France by mid-August 1944 to combat the French Forces of the Interior (FFI). The division’s performance in combat was poor, and two battalions mutinied, murdered their German leaders, and defected to the FFI. Other troops of the division crossed the Swiss border and were interned. Afterwards, some of the division’s personnel were transferred to the Russian Liberation Army while others were retained to form the SS “White Ruthenian” infantry brigade from January 1945.

  109. @AP

    Stan

    Has nothing to do with Islam, Turks or Arabs. Originally Stan was the Indo-Iranian word for location / place / country, hence Hindustan or even stanitza and stanovka in Ukrainian/Russian. Turkic people adopted the term from their Persian neighbors.

    Maidan in the other hand derives from the Arabic maidah = table and is currently used in Arabic under the midan transliteration to denote the large open places or sqares usually found in downtown city location. For example, Midan Tahrir in Cairo:

    https://www.lonelyplanet.com/egypt/cairo/attractions/midan-tahrir/a/poi-sig/1430978/355225

    The presence of Turkish, Persian or Arabic derived words has been estimated in Ukrainian language and is quite substantial, I have read about it some years ago on Teh Internets. Of course the information was presented in a polemical manner during a “poo-throwing” khokhlosratch contest between Russian Vatniks and Ukrainian Bandertards each accusing the other of not being the “Muh pure Slav”.

    The presence of these “Eastern ” cognates should not surprise anyone though, because of the Ottoman and Crimean Tatar influence on the territory that is now Ukraine. After all the word Cossack itself is of Turkic origin. OTOH, Muscovites were largely bilingual in Russian and Tatar up to the seventeen century when the Westernization begun. Afanasyi Nikitin, the Russian merchant who ended up traveling to Hindustan used many Turkic words and sentences, including Islamic ones, in his travelog.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasy_Nikitin

    There is nothing bad in sharing some culture and vocabulary with one’s neighbors, as long as a population remains aware of its past, true to its roots and honors its ancestors.

    • Replies: @AP
  110. @Dmitry

    When we compare Lukashenko and Aliev – Aliev has been much more successful in “multivector external policy”, than Lukashenko

    Azerbaijan is a sort of anti-Russia and anti-Iran bulwark of the West/USA+Israel in the East Caucuses, with even the British Empire clearly practicing pro-Azerbaijan and anti-Armenian policy in WW1 with its military involvement in the Caucuses.

    Russia is really the only biggest threat Azerbaijan faces (especially considering the current state of Armenia), so as long as Azerbaijan doesn’t antagonize Russia, it will be completely fine (especially considering Russia was even kind enough to gift land to Azerbaijan in the early 1990’s). The Aliyev dynasty has clearly understood this very well.

    It’s also possible that Azerbaijan may have missed some potential chances or opportunities to pursue irredentism against Iran on “South Azerbaijan”, although in a future war of Iran vs Israel it may potentially get a chance.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  111. @AP

    The Ottomans and the Habsburgs were not powers.

    What he got done was squander tens of millions of people in order to defeat a much smaller enemy. He was a great gift for Russia’s rivals.

    Bla bla, this is a defeatist rhetoric. Stalin can be blamed for creating Ukrainians, and many other things but he is inseparable from the War. USSR won, and all of you shits lost.

    • Replies: @AP
  112. @AP

    The whole far right scene in Ukraine and elsewhere is a pure postmodern phenomenon.

    And in a sense German Nazism itself was a precursor of this eclectic postmodernism: mixing Socialism with Volkish cultural tropes and appropriating ancient Aryan symbols that have nothing whatsoever to do with Germans (mostly descended from the Bell Beaker Culture populations) was quite an avant-garde move back in the 1920ies.

    Nazism is an “anti-initiation ” in a Guenononian sense of the term. All anti-initiations lead to the Left Hand Path and end up destructive and damaging to the human mind.

    Early Communism also was an anti-initiation, later it became so materialistic that it shed all relationship with its masonic occult roots. But at the very inception, it was also an occult system rooted into Svededenborgian freemasonry, evolving through Cosmism, Bolshevism, PCUS and ending up in the 90ies nihilistic downfall of USSR which propelled the current RusFed “elites” to the top.

    All anti-initiations lead to no good, they build chimeras in the Gumilyov’s sense of the word and end up killing the populations that they enslave and parasite. They are the tool for the selection of the worst in the human mind even though they often pretend otherwise. Modern USA is one such chimera and will lead to the destruction of the American minds. Modern RusFed is also a chimera as is today’s China.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    , @Coconuts
  113. For Ukraine, Commie times were actually better time, times with Russia are for the most part pretty good in Ukraine. Losing like 20 million inhabitants in 30 years, an entire third of the population. Factories and infrastructure built in Commie times, transferred from Russia, are going bust. Wild boars and feral hogs will take over and you will have the oligarchs hunt them down. Maybe the oligarchs will also hunt the remaining Ukrainians, who knows.

    They can hunt all those people that cannot pay their energy bills. The country is bonkers, and Commie Ukraine was a bigger success, it even had a better anthem.

  114. @Yevardian

    Yes, Pashinian is the same kind of shit as Saakashvili: imperial servant who does not give a hoot about the interests of his country. Yet Armenian population is not blameless: it elected this scum and his goons. Armenia has already suffered the consequences.

    Even though Armenia is a special case (has borders with two sworn enemies, Azerbaijan and Turkey), it would still be better off balancing between Russia and Iran. The difference with many others is that it must maintain this balance closer to Russia for purely practical reasons: Russian military base on its territory would scare Azeris and Turks, whereas Iranian base might not.

    The behavior of Baltic vaudeville states is not rational, it is suicidal. They did everything in their power to kill the mainstay of their economies: transit of Russian exports through their railways and ports. Now it’s too late for them to do anything about it: the train has already left the station. They will suffer progressively more. If you ask me, serves them right.

    Luka’s behavior isn’t rational, either. He is too dumb for rational behavior, although one might admire his balls, especially considering how weak his hand of cards is. To serve his country well, he should have also balanced, but kept closer to Russia. Now I suspect that Putin will replace him with someone more rational. If you ask me, serves Luka right.

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mulga Mumblebrain
    , @zn
  115. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Interesting. You are of course correct about the origins of this word, but nowadays it is associated with Islam.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  116. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    The Ottomans and the Habsburgs were not powers.

    Yes they were. Ottomans defeated the Brits. I guess in your world Britain wasn’t a great power in the early 20th century either?

    USSR won, and all of you shits lost.

    Particularly if you include the Russian and Ukrainian people as part of “all you shits.”

  117. @AP

    I would say that it is mostly associated with Central Asian and Turkic populations. But one must remember that a great proportion of Central Asian Turks and Russian Tatars are derived from ancient Indo-Iranian populations. The word Turan itself was a broad term used by the Mazdean Iranians to describe the Pagan Central Asian nomads, which at the time of the Persian Empire were mainly Scythian-derived.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  118. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The behavior of Baltic vaudeville states is not rational, it is suicidal. They did everything in their power to kill the mainstay of their economies: transit of Russian exports through their railways and ports. Now it’s too late for them to do anything about it: the train has already left the station. They will suffer progressively more

    Estonia has more than twice Russia’s per capita GDP. Lithuania’s is about twice and Latvia’s is a little less than twice. Wages match.

    I see your nonsense extends beyond Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  119. Dmitry says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Families of the ruling elite of Azerbaijan are Russian citizens, that keep their property and grandchildren in Moscow.

    Aliev’s family, which was born from the KGB, are today living halfway almost as wealthy Moscow oligarchs, that manage a separate country of Azerbaijan as their “business”.

    Of course, this means they should maintain their country more as a separate power-centre to Moscow, as (for any oligarchs) it increases their power and leverage over Russia, the more separated your source of income/business can be from Russian authorities.

    Public opinion in Azerbaijan is anti-Russian, partly for historical reasons from the beginning of the 1990s (especially January 1990), and partly intentionally created by their government media because this is useful for Aliev. When you have anti-Russian sentiment in your population, this reducing possibility of Russian government influence in Azerbaijan, increases his leverage against Russia.

    Lukashenko has been trying the same strategy for years (if you watch his media, its editorial position is often anti-Russian government views, especially focusing about how corrupt Russia is compared to Belarus).

    Aliev also has the advantage that if there is a sign of political instability or internal dissent, he can go to war with Armenia (and likely win due to a significant military superiority relative to his external enemy), while Lukashenko has no weaker external enemy he can go to war against. Poland can troll Lukashenko by sending its television inside his country, and unlike Aliev, Lukashenko can never have any military options (even without NATO, Poland is many times stronger), and has to accept the trolling with a friendly face.

    Russia is really the only biggest threat Azerbaijan

    Aliev has the same problem as Lukashenko, which is that as a dictator, he is a priori embarrassment for the West. At best, he can receive some secret support from the West, but nothing very useful.

    Israel and Turkey (which have semi-non-Western, Middle Eastern mentality) are as far West as his alliances can extend, before he becomes an ideological embarrassment.

    Israel and Turkey are both regional powers, but not at all great powers.

    Aliev and Lukashenko both need to leverage against Russia – in order to increase their power in the relationship, but are externally unacceptable in the West, and this is part of a “bluff” that Russia can expose.

    Lukashenko is trying to openly use China as leverage against Russia, and makes visible shows of China’s supposed special support for him. But it doesn’t seem like China is interested in Belarus a geopolitical sense, and it seems like another “bluff”.

    China is investing into Belarus, but the products that are produced in Belarus by Chinese companies (like Geely automobiles) are dependent on Russian market where they are sold.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
  120. @AP

    Estonia has more than twice Russia’s per capita GDP. Lithuania’s is about twice and Latvia’s is a little less than twice.

    LOL. I am sure their “success” explains the rate of their population loss. As Latvian joke puts it, there is a posted note at Riga airport: whoever leaves last, please turn off the lights.

    Read hysterical publications in Baltic MSM. Latvia even cancelled its plan to electrify their railways: nothing to transport. Now with their ridiculous stance regarding Belarus they will lose the transit of Belarus exports. Serves them right: idiocy must be punished.

    • Replies: @AP
  121. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    LOL. I am sure their “success” explains the rate of their population loss

    Population loss is due to even higher wages in places they can now move freely to. Apparently you didn’t even know that wages in UK are much higher than in Lithuania. How many are moving to Russia or Belarus lol?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  122. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Going out of the way to replace the pre-Soviet figure Suvorov (one of the greatest generals who never lost a battle) is on par with the PC cancel culture woke movement in the US, regarding some American historical figures.

    • Agree: Shortsword
    • Replies: @AP
  123. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Public opinion in Azerbaijan is anti-Russian

    When I spent a couple of days in Baku en route to Kiev I was with one of my kids, with whom I speak Ukrainian. I was getting a lot of unsolicited pro-Ukrainian comments from the locals who heard us.

    I person from Aliev’s inner circle once told me that they have pro-American sentiments, but America is far away while Russia and Iran are close. So Azerbaijan must carefully pursue policies that reflect this fact and focus on good relations with their near neighbors. This person spoke Russian better than Azeri (but spoke each of those languages with an accent).

    I imagine that if Iran still had a pro-American, pro-Israel Shah in power, Alievs would have other options and might have made an alliance with such an Iran, and NATO-member Turkey.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Dmitry
  124. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Suvorov was appropriated by Sovoks and made into a Soviet symbol. From wiki:

    “During World War II, the Soviet Union revived the memory of many pre-1917 heroes in order to raise patriotism. Suvorov was the Tsarist military figure most often referred to by Joseph Stalin, who also adopted the rank of Generalissimo that Suvorov had previously held. The Order of Suvorov was established by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet on 29 July 1942 and is awarded to senior army personnel for exceptional leadership in combat operations against superior enemy forces”

    The monument was built under arch-Sovok Brezhnev.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  125. @AP

    Population loss is due to even higher wages in places they can now move freely to.

    This is like religion: nice theory, if it weren’t for the facts. Kosovo is not an EU member. Its people have to overcome the same hurdles as citizens of Belarus or RF to move to Europe. Yet Kosovo lost about a third of its population after “independence”, whereas nothing comparable happened in Belarus or RF. Ukraine also isn’t an EU member, but much greater proportion of its former residents ran away to Europe than from Belarus or RF (admittedly, smaller than fled Kosovo). Also, all three Baltic micro-states are EU members. Yet the rate of population loss is quite different: Latvia >> Lithuania > Estonia.

    • Replies: @AP
  126. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    We are discussing your silly fantasy about the Baltics (whose per capita GDP and wages are roughly double those of Russia) being poor, and not the Balkans.

    Did you know that the Baltics and the Balkans are entirely different places with their own circumstances and histories?

    Kosovo is poorer than Russia and Belarus and much closer to core EU (Austria and Italy) than is Russia (slightly closer than Belarus).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  127. @AP

    Diagnosis: severe dyslexia. Both reading comprehension and writing skills impaired. My condolences.

    Reread my post and your last paragraph, slowly and more than once. Might help.

    • LOL: Jazman
    • Replies: @AP
  128. @Anatoly Karlin

    I tend to agree.
    BTW I have suspicious that behind recent Czechia incident were also little push from Russia. Story is so idiotic that’s Russians might say, let’s embarrass them.

  129. @Felix Keverich

    West is still getting better returns from investment in Belarus then Russia. BTW only 1.5 year ago, British paratroopers were training with Belorussian.

  130. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You used Balkans as an example to try to prove somethings about the Baltics.

    Moreover, you wrote about Kosovo:

    Its people have to overcome the same hurdles as citizens of Belarus or RF to move to Europe

    Apparently you weren’t aware of the fact that most of Russia is much further from core EU than is Russia. Problems with geography also?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  131. @Felix Keverich

    Russian policy towards Belorussia is insane. Untill recently, there wasn’t refinery in Russia equipped to supply West petrochemical products. Russia would sell cheap oil to Belarus, Belarus sell to West and Russia. Russia is keeps Luka alive and he is pursuing multi vector policy.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  132. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Suvorov was appropriated by Sovoks and made into a Soviet symbol. From Wiki:

    “During World War II, the Soviet Union revived the memory of many pre-1917 heroes in order to raise patriotism. Suvorov was the Tsarist military figure most often referred to by Joseph Stalin, who also adopted the rank of Generalissimo that Suvorov had previously held. The Order of Suvorov was established by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet on 29 July 1942 and is awarded to senior army personnel for exceptional leadership in combat operations against superior enemy forces”

    The monument was built under arch-Sovok Brezhnev.

    Regardless, Suvorov is a great pre-Soviet (not Soviet) military figure. Should Ukraine’s Communist drawn boundaries be declared illegitimate on the same basis?

    • Replies: @AP
  133. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Regardless, Suvorov is a great pre-Soviet (not Soviet) military figure

    He was a pre-Soviet military figure with a mixed record (good for fighting against Revolutionary French, not good for killing Slavs), but the Sovoks appropriated him and his legacy within Ukraine is a Soviet military thing. The statue to him that was removed was built in the 1970s under Brezhnev. It might as well be a Lenin statue.

    Should Ukraine’s Communist drawn boundaries be declared illegitimate on the same basis?

    They already have been. Areas, with a non-Ukrainian majority, that were a poison pill added to Ukraine by the Soviets have been removed. This has been a good thing, like the removal of Soviet-era statues.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  134. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    When I spent a couple of days in Baku en route to Kiev I was with one of my kids, with whom I speak Ukrainian. I was getting a lot of unsolicited pro-Ukrainian comments from the locals who heard us.

    I person from Aliev’s inner circle once told me that they have pro-American sentiments, but America is far away while Russia and Iran are close. So Azerbaijan must carefully pursue policies that reflect this fact and focus on good relations with their near neighbors. This person spoke Russian better than Azeri (but spoke each of those languages with an accent).

    I imagine that if Iran still had a pro-American, pro-Israel Shah in power, Alievs would have other options and might have made an alliance with such an Iran, and NATO-member Turkey.

    GUAM like influence, explaining why svido Kuzio has expressed sympathy for Azerbaijan and disdain for Armenia.

    Numerous Azeris aren’t negative towards Russia, while stressing the image of an Armenian lobby in Russia.

    Neocon/neolib leaning flawed thinking doesn’t help the West’s image in Azerbaijan. A case in point being the recent exchange between a BBC interviewer and Aliyev.

  135. @AP

    Apparently you weren’t aware of the fact that most of Russia is much further from core EU than is Russia.

    Next homework: reread your sentence above, slowly and paying attention. Do it as many times as necessary, until you figure out what’s wrong with it.

    • Replies: @AP
  136. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    He was a pre-Soviet military figure with a mixed record (good for fighting against Revolutionary French, not good for killing Slavs), but the Sovoks appropriated him and his legacy within Ukraine is a Soviet military thing. The statue to him that was removed was built in the 1970s under Brezhnev. It might as well be a Lenin statue.

    He fought against the Poles. Philip Longworth noted the inaccuracies concerning his attack on Warsaw.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13540316-the-art-of-victory#other_reviews

    Svido like to believe that the sovoks appropriating (as you put it) Suvorov suddenly makes him bad and on par with Lenin.

    They already have been. Areas, with a non-Ukrainian majority, that were a poison pill added to Ukraine by the Soviets have been removed. This has been a good thing, like the removal of Soviet-era statues.

    Ethnic cleansing? Still a decent share of minorities.

    • Replies: @AP
  137. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Second Russia in that statement should be Kosovo, of course. Logic is hard?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  138. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    He fought against the Poles. Philip Longworth noted the inaccuracies concerning his attack on Warsaw.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13540316-the-art-of-victory#other_reviews

    He fought and killed Poles which wasn’t nice.

    Svido like to believe that the sovoks appropriating (as you put it) Suvorov suddenly makes him bad and on par with Lenin.

    He was not as bad as Lenin but his legacy within Ukraine specifically, as a Sovok appropriation, placed it in the same category. His Brezhnev era statue ought to be removed alongside the Lenin Brezhnev era statues.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  139. Aedib says:

    Priceless: The true nature of the “peaceful freedom fighters”.

    https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/6802827.html

  140. Coconuts says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    That is an interesting post Bashibuzuk.

    The fact that Nazism and Marxist-Leninism shared a kind of dialectical nature is something that always seemed noticeable about them; in Leninism the proletariat rise up and establish their dictatorship, waging war on the bourgeoisie and the capitalist order, for the Nazis the struggle was between ‘The Aryan’ and ‘The Jew’ for the future soul of humanity.

    There was another common theme, this struggle was supposed to result in a kind of sublimation of the thesis and the antithesis and the emergence of a new more perfect world, but it had to be fought in an all consuming way with little real restraint because the prodigious ends were considered to justify the means. I only connected this to an underlying Hegelian influence more recently, after reading into it due to the Woke phenomena, but I didn’t know it was also mirrored in esoteric thinking and Indian spirituality.

    The lesson from the 20th c. seemed to be that this dialectic doesn’t work in practice. However, I agree that it is clearly back in the West in the Woke movement, in the ‘war on whiteness’ and in the Queer/transgender movement against ‘heteronormativity’ (even against homosexuals who are committed to rejecting Queer philosophy). Maoism is obviously important to the origin and rule of the CCP, so I guess its influence exists in China still too.

    People are already speculating about the kind of damage the Woke and Queer movements will have done by the time it is clear that, once again, the dialectical sublimation has failed to materialise.

  141. Aedib says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    AFAIK, Scythian related peoples were considered by ancient Persians as people of “Iran” (land of Aryans), with the great Iran going roughly to the north shore of the Aral Sea and the north shore of Caspian Sea. Turan starts roughly there to refer to the “land of no-Aryans” (Turkic peoples). By the way, “stan” was never related to Islam. Persians were mostly Zooroastrians until VIII AC.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Bashibuzuk
  142. Coconuts says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    And in a sense German Nazism itself was a precursor of this eclectic postmodernism: mixing Socialism with Volkish cultural tropes and appropriating ancient Aryan symbols that have nothing whatsoever to do with Germans (mostly descended from the Bell Beaker Culture populations) was quite an avant-garde move back in the 1920ies.

    Hegel and Schopenhauer were both writing when knowledge of the Upanishads and Buddhist spirituality was spreading through translation in Germany, was this about the time that study of Indo-European linguistics was developing? I remember something like this. This may be where these symbols and ideas were first picked up by the Germans.

    In the Western far-right the connection between German Idealist philosophy (and later German existentialism), Hindu spirituality and the Indo-Europeans of the Vedic period still seems to be taken quite seriously. I wondered about it though, I tended to feel that Plato and Aristotle, Classical philosophy more generally represented the main tradition of the West, and this has a different feel and orientation to the Indian one. Celtic and Latin people seem to have really taken to ascetism and monasticism when it arrived from the Greek/Egyptian near east, whereas with Germanic peoples it seems like it was more ambiguous.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  143. @AP

    Second Russia in that statement should be Kosovo, of course.

    Congrats! Making progress. Keep going.

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @AP
  144. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    My mis-writing a word is fun, but have you figured out that the fact that the wages in the Baltics being twice those of Russia make your claim about Baltics poverty very stupid, though?

  145. AP says:
    @Aedib

    By the way, “stan” was never related to Islam.

    Directly, no. But today all -stans are Islamic countries.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  146. Aedib says:
    @AP

    No. E.g. Hindustan and Kafiristan. We may add SouthAfrican Bantustans, and in this phorum we can add the three Baltustans. LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Simpleguest
  147. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    He fought and killed Poles which wasn’t nice.

    After Poles attacked and killed Russians which wasn’t nice.

    He was not as bad as Lenin but his legacy within Ukraine specifically, as a Sovok appropriation, placed it in the same category. His Brezhnev era statue ought to be removed alongside the Lenin Brezhnev era statues.

    Sovoks appropriated Shevchenko in a way that includes the Soviet era construction of monuments/statues in honor of him. Using your logic, they should be removed.

    • Replies: @AP
  148. Aedib says:

    I forget to mention Nuristan or “land of the light” which is populated by remaining of ancient Aryans not Islamized.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Passer by
    , @zn
    , @RSDB
  149. AP says:
    @Aedib

    You are right here. I should have written, that all the -stan countries are Islamic. At any rate, most places that are -stans nowadays are Islamic. Even Kafiristan has mostly converted.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  150. AP says:
    @Aedib

    Sadly, most of these people have converted to Islam.

    • Agree: Aedib
  151. @AnonFromTN

    And Armenia has another, ancient, enemy-Israel.

  152. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Azerbaijan has a naturally a lot of leverage in its relation with Iran, as most of the ethnic Azerbaijani people are Iranian citizens today.

    Up to 1/4 of Iranian citizens are Azeris (and a majority in Northern Iran). If it wanted, Azerbaijan could create a problem for Iran, via stimulation of nationalism among Azeris in Iran (the result of this, could be analogous to Kurds in Turkey).

    So Azerbaijan has “inbuilt” power and leverage in its relationship with Iran, despite being 8 times smaller country, as they could threaten Iran’s internal stability if Iran would ever become hostile to them.


    Elite-to-elite relation of Azerbaijan with Russia is one of the more friendly and close ones in the postsoviet sphere, but Azerbaijan’s elite is trying to create leverage against Moscow, that it shouldn’t naturally have as a small, weak part of the postsoviet space.

    Authorities in Azerbaijan seem to enjoy promoting mild anti-Russian sentiments among the general population, and this is a clever strategy as it is close the possibility for Russia to access Azerbaijan, except through its elite.

    Azerbaijan-Russia relations are relatively important, as Azerbaijan has a direct border, and became more important due to the bad relationship with Georgia.

    Baku seemed to be aware of this, and is successful in creating leverage against Russia, as Moscow lacks softpower in Azerbaijan, while Azerbaijan floods Russia with its workers, and often even seemed to be even trolling with its border closures.

    Aliev’s inner circle once told me that they have pro-American sentiments, but America is far away while Russia

    Achille’s heel of Azerbaijan’s diplomacy, is ideological problems that Aliev presents to the West, as a dictator, making it a priori impossible for Western countries to accept him too much publicly.

    While in Georgia and Armenia are presenting themselves as democracies, and should be ideologically easier for them to build an alliance with the West (although Armenia is so weak and lacking leverage in relation to Turkey and Russia, that their attempts at “multivector” diplomacy to the West have seemed hopeless beyond attaining some weak support from France).

  153. Passer by says:
    @Aedib

    Nuristan is famous for heavy taliban activity these days, very hard place, even the americans could not handle it and had to retreat from there 10 years ago.

    • Thanks: Aedib
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  154. @Aedib

    The distinction was religious not ethnic: those who were Indo-Iranian and Mazdean (Zoroastrian) were accepted by the Persians as Aryan.

    The Turkic tribesmen are unheard of in Central Asia prior to the fall of the White Huns (Hephtalites). Basically, the historical Turks (not the Anatolian ones, who are mostly genetically Levantine) only appear in the historical record at the time of the Ashina dynasty in the mid sixth century AD. By that time, the Sassanian Persia was already on the decline.

    Historically speaking, Avestan Aryans have not coexisted with Turks. But Turan was already used as a geographic term by the early Zoroastrians for the non-Zoroastrian Central Asian nomads who had kept their archaic tribal social organization and Pagan religion. Those nomads, largely derived from the Arkaim Sintashta people, were called different things at different times, but were basically what the Greek colonists in the Pontic zone called by the exonyme Scythian. The Pontic Scythians called themselves Skolots, while other similar Central Asian populations called themselves other names : Sakas, Khambojas (those who lived closer to Hindustan), Massagetae etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_cultures

    Some of these tribes ended up thoroughly admixed with Altaic, Ugric and Paleo-Siberian populations, lived for a long time under Xiongnu and Rouran domination and ended up joining the early Gökturk Qaghanate.

    But at the time of Cyrus the Great none of them was Turkic yet. In fact, if it was not for religion and sedentary lifestyle, early Persians, Medians and later Parthians might have also been included among the Scythian cultures. What we now call Scythians come first, Medians, Sogdians and Persians come later, then come Parthians, all of them Indo-Iranian. Turks are a relatively recent phenomenon.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, Aedib
  155. @Passer by

    Nuristani people stayed Pagan for a thousand years after the conquest of most of the Afghanistan by the Muslim armies. They had only been subdued and forcefully converted in the late nineteenth century to early twentieth centuries. Prior to their conversion, their culture was similar to the Kalash Kafirs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafiristan

    They are quite stubborn and able to fend for themselves.

    True Aryan blood. (Unlike the Americans…)

  156. @Coconuts

    In the Western far-right the connection between German Idealist philosophy (and later German existentialism), Hindu spirituality and the Indo-Europeans of the Vedic period still seems to be taken quite seriously.

    The descendents of the Bell Beaker have nothing to do whatsoever with Aryans. The Bell Beaker folks have never been to India, not even to Central Asia or modern day Eastern Slav territory. Most Western European males are descended either from Megalithic, Bell Beaker (the majority of them) or ancient Mediterranean populations.

    Nazis stole the heritage of the Balto – Slav, Indo-Iranian, Dardic and Hindustani Aryan people. It was pure cultural appropriation. Of course, at the time they had no paleogenomics to disprove Hitler’s Germanic “Aryan Race ” claims, but even today they still cling to something that they have no right in at all.

    They should look towards the Italo-Celtic, Germanic and Norse cultures, to the Roman Empire and to Sacrum Imperium Romanum Nationis Germanicæ if they look for their roots. They would find a lot of tradition to build upon.

    But as discussed above, Nazism was an “antitradition”. As you have noted, they did not look to rebuild tradition, they wanted to transcend the society of the 1920ies through violence and creation of a pure novel (pseudo) “Aryan” identity. It is this desire they had to create a “novel man” through violence that they have in common with the Bolshevik and the Woke. Also, to some extent with the early Zionists.

    Postmodern LARPers all of them.

    • Agree: AP
    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  157. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    He fought and killed Poles which wasn’t nice.

    After Poles attacked and killed Russians which wasn’t nice.

    Killing occupation soldiers on their own, Polish, lands?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bciuszko_Uprising

    “He was not as bad as Lenin but his legacy within Ukraine specifically, as a Sovok appropriation, placed it in the same category. His Brezhnev era statue ought to be removed alongside the Lenin Brezhnev era statues.”

    Sovoks appropriated Shevchenko in a way that includes the Soviet era construction of monuments/statues in honor of him. Using your logic, they should be removed.

    Sovoks did appropriate Shevchenko but he was appreciated in Ukraine by Ukrainians long before the Sovoks did so, and in places where Sovoks didn’t get to (in Galicia prior to 1939, and in the diaspora). Suvorov appreciation in Ukraine OTOH was a Soviet phenomenon.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  158. @Aedib

    We may add SouthAfrican Bantustans, and in this phorum we can add the three Baltustans. LOL.

    Don’t forget Yunanistan, Sirbistan and Bulgaristan. LOL.

  159. zn says:
    @AnonFromTN

    BTW, great news – banderetard ex head of SVR, Viktor Gvozd,, dead – drowning after going diving in the seas off Egyptian coast.

    Rest in Hell to this dirtbag who got promoted immediately after Maidan, although he was a big Yushchenko ally before then.

    What’s interesting with the scumbag is that he has identical education and similar career in areas of the world that expertise of his career was carried out….. as Yury Ivanov, deputy head of equivalent Russian foreign intelligence, who was also found dead from drowning ( in Turkey) in some time around 2011 if I remember correctly

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  160. Mr. Hack says:
    @zn

    You seem to imply that both deaths weren’t accidental, any proof that they were staged?

    Also, was Ivanov a “scumbag” too, or do you reserve that sort of nomenclature for Ukrainians only?

    • Replies: @zn
  161. zn says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Gvozd was that rare event in “Ukraine” – a Galician in a position of power. He was postmaidan head of foreign intelligence, i.e Nazi, so this designates him as a scumbag because of the specific timing ( 2014-16)

    No proof, but it is either something very suspicious…. or something of great irony, coincidence or poetic judtice

    • Replies: @AP
  162. AP says:
    @zn

    Gvozd was that rare event in “Ukraine” – a Galician in a position of power. He was postmaidan head of foreign intelligence, i.e Nazi

    So in other words, a Nazi only in the fevered imagination of someone who reads too much Saker.

    • Replies: @zn
  163. @AP

    This is most important post in whole discussion. Russian word would have much higher value if Russia can bring more prosperity to Russian. At the end of the day, it was dream of living like in West which let people to refuse Soviet union. Russia propaganda paint Baltic like waste land. Truth is that many Russian would like to have wages like in Baltic countries. Russia should focus on prosperity first.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  164. zn says:
    @AP

    Well I could easily reply to this drivel…….. but what’s the point if the weirdo as yourself is just going to cry like a 5 year old girl to the author in private to try and ban myself – exactly in the spirit of your (well, psuedo) Nazi scumbag “relatives” of 75-85 years before?

    I was unable at the time ( for obvious reasons) to comment on the most recent stupidity of “Malta is continental Europe”, or that fighting there was the “war in Europe” when it was clearly part of the War in the North African desert….. or that Malta (though you would need an actual international passport to know so, which eliminates you) is very much British and was actual British land before and during the war… not to forget the other clueless, illiterate nonsense about Italy in the war.
    This drivel is so much worse than what the usual Dumb American stereotype – its amusing knowing that if I edit Wikipedia to say New Delhi is the capital of Sumy oblast.. you will cluelessly repeat it on here.

    • Replies: @AP
  165. @AP

    My mis-writing a word is fun, but have you figured out that the fact that the wages in the Baltics being twice those of Russia make your claim about Baltics poverty very stupid, though?

    If the Baltics were rich, the people there wouldn’t be leaving in droves. Wages are great for those that have them. Also, in the Eastern parts of the EU, if you are not making 1500 Euros a month at the least, you are not exactly thriving. In Russia, the Big Mac index shows that you don’t need that much.

    • Replies: @AP
  166. zn says:
    @Aedib

    Rajasthan, the Royal area of India ( Raj). I assume in modern day that translates into being one of the relatively wealthier regions of India.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  167. @Dmitry

    Yes, the elites of Azerbaijan and Russia have solid ties and Russia has much economic (trade and Azeri diaspora) and military leverage over Azerbaijan (predominance of Russian military equipment in Azeri military, and ability to easily stomp Azerbaijan if it ever comes to a war between Russia and Azerbaijan). This obviously translates into political leverage on the part of Russia over Azerbaijan to a considerable degree as well.

    I don’t have anything particularly too much against Azeris (obviously after researching Caucuses issues much more thoroughly and deeply than before and not being blindly 100% pro-Armenian) although Azerbaijan’s relationship with Israel is so distasteful (there are some other bizarre and weird things about Azerbaijan) that I struggle to hold back my disgust at it.

  168. @demografie

    Even during the communist USSR the Baltic states had a higher standard of living than Russia and it attracted Russian immigrants even in those days.

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Baltic-states/Soviet-republics

  169. RSDB says:
    @Aedib

    This is a bit off– Nuristan is the name given (by the Afghan government at the time, I think) to the part that was forcibly Islamized under Abdur Rahman.

  170. Aedib says:
    @AP

    You are right in the sense that most stans are Islamic now, but it is not exclusively associated to Islam. E.g. Andalucía (it was Islamic until late XV AC) is called Al-Andaluz by Muslims. Stans are, roughly, associated to the Persian cultural world (even if many stans are ethnically Turkic, they were strongly influenced by Persians). Andalucía was out of the Persian imprint and so it never was called “Andalustan”.

    • Agree: AP
  171. RSDB says:
    @zn

    Rajasthan is a mostly agricultural state and does not rank particularly high by per capita GDP, but by all accounts it is a very picturesque place and very rich in arts and culture.

  172. AP says:
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    Baltics are rich compared to Russia but not rich compared to the UK. Thus Baltic people have left for the West but not to Russia.

  173. AP says:
    @zn

    How are the English toilets doing, gerard?

  174. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    This Wiki link you give is long winded.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bciuszko_Uprising

    Kindly highlight the matter concerning Suvorov.

    Sovoks did appropriate Shevchenko but he was appreciated in Ukraine by Ukrainians long before the Sovoks did so, and in places where Sovoks didn’t get to (in Galicia prior to 1939, and in the diaspora). Suvorov appreciation in Ukraine OTOH was a Soviet phenomenon.

    The former Russian Empire portion of Ukraine included, Suvorov was highly regarded prior to the creation of the USSR. Since the Soviet breakup, the PC woke/cancel culture in Ukraine, has twisted the past to conform with svido preferences.

  175. @AP

    Sovok Donbass:

    Yuropean Kyiv:

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  176. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I’m sorry, but the ball looks like LARPing Sovoks.

    The Pride thing is hilarious. Will they parachute them in?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  177. First Navalny, now this guy. The West really knows how to pick the poster-children to justify their aggression.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  178. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Put in a crude non-PC way: where svidomites meet sodomites

  179. @The Alarmist

    First Navalny, now this guy. The West really knows how to pick the poster-children

    The Empire and its lackeys repeatedly make the same mistakes. They always pick cowardly traitorous nonentities. When squeezed, these cowards readily betray their Western paymasters. Then again, what else could they pick? Anyone with a modicum of decency and self-respect would refuse this role.

  180. @melanf

    You don’t find Russian women to be significantly better looking than women in other countries?

    I have spent only about a week in Russia but Russian women appeared to be significantly above the West European average in the looks department.

    More importantly the percentage of exceptionally good looking women(the sort people tend to remember) typically around 1-2% in most West European countries seemed to be much higher closer to 5%.

  181. maz10 says:
    @AP

    The comments re wages are written by the ignorant for the ignorant.

    These numbers could be taken at face value only if everything in all those countries would cost the same in Euros – obviously it is not the case.

    For example Russian wages in Euros appear to be very low due to the fact that the Ruble is very much undervalued vis-à-vis western currencies (which has certain advantages and disadvantages especially in macroeconomics).

    Similarly Polish “average” wages are not representative, the expert will know why and if the do not know why it means they are “experts”. For those not in the know a hint: check the way the GUS collects data in this particular field. Still because of a number of factors, such as for example high social spending, increased local job opportunities, general policy of families friendliness and other reasons the outflow of people to nominally higher wage places has observably decreased. Another things many realised once they reached the western paradise was, that while they earn more everything costs even more especially in attractive locations with job opportunities.

    By the same toke if a substantial outflow of people & population decrease continues in the “Baltic paradise” theoretically high wages notwithstanding it means something is very seriously wrong with those places. The fact that there are places with even higher wages does not cut it as an explanation because unless you happen to live in Switzerland there is always a country with a higher average salary you would theoretically want to migrate to.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonfromTN
  182. AP says:
    @maz10

    The fact that there are places with even higher wages does not cut it as an explanation because unless you happen to live in Switzerland there is always a country with a higher average salary you would theoretically want to migrate to.

    Not slightly higher, but double. People will move in large numbers to double their wages, particularly if there are no hurdles. Moving from Lithuania to UK was as easy as moving from Nebraska to California. Moving from Estonia to Finland (which has double Estonian wages) is even easier. Estonian wages are double Russia’s, but half Finland’s.

    The difference in wages between Canada and USA is smaller than between Baltics and Western Europe. Yet despite USA having a much larger population, there are about twice as many Canadians in the USA as vice versa (total numbers of each are not huge because immigration isn’t as easy as between EU member states). And Canada is of course not at all a poor country.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @demografie
    , @maz10
  183. @maz10

    Using wages as the only indicator of standard of living is about as justified as using eye color as the only measure of body weight. I know this from personal experience. When I moved from the USSR to the US in 1991 nominally our family income increased ~10-fold. Yet we were a lot poorer for the first few years than before the move, for several obvious reasons.

    One, our rent went from less then 9 rubles per month to $550, which by currency rates at the time was >500-fold increase.

    Two, healthcare was free in the USSR, whereas even with good (by American standards) health insurance I had to pay $60 for my daughter’s immunization against rubella, required for her being able to go to school. Everything else was even more expensive.

    Three, public transportation (for me to get to work) was so expensive that when I bought a car (which I never needed in the USSR) and started driving to work, this saved money.

    Four, Russian taxes are among the lowest in the world: 13% of income.

    I am not even talking about the costs of higher education (our daughter was 8 years old when we moved, so we encountered this issue much later). For the education of the same quality as I got for free in Moscow (almost free dormitory and stipend I received monthly that covered food costs were also added) we paid for our daughter >$40,000 annually back then (now it is >$70,000 annually).

    Even today for housing, health care, education, as well as many other things, Russians pay many times less than Americans. Without taking all these into account, wage comparisons are deceptive.

    • Replies: @demografie
    , @AP
  184. @AP

    I don’t understand why it is up for debate. I was working in Germany as manual worker and earned 2-3 times more as in local bank. Milion people are doing is the same. If you can 2 times more and you still have insurance etc. It is no brainer. Baltic people can really have higher wages in Nordic countries. So they work there or move there. It also push up local wages.
    If Russia really want to increase quality of life, she need to cut immigration work and increase minim wages.

    • Agree: AP, Bashibuzuk
  185. @AnonfromTN

    I’m sorry to say, but this is BS:
    When I moved from the USSR to the US in 1991 nominally our family income increased ~10-fold. Yet we were a lot poorer for the first few years than before the move, for several obvious reasons.

    I was living in East Bloc and USA. Wages and quality of life was totally different. I remember our parents not having enough money to buy us meat. Like come on.

    • Replies: @maz10
    , @AnonfromTN
  186. maz10 says:
    @AP

    Yawn …

    I did not write anything about ‘slightly higher’ in case you did not notice.

    But anyway thank you for your comment – you missed (ignored?) the points I made confirming in the process what I initially thought about your comment initiating the exchange.

  187. maz10 says:
    @demografie

    Sure.

    Yeti t all depends from person to person and one personal situation to the other.

    I know, actually occasionally work with, a guy who moved back from UK, London to be precise. He earned a lot more there but because London is and was very expensive there was no way he could have brought over his family and provided for it there.

    Moving back was the only option for him really – but on the upside he brought some money back with him so it was a nett plus all thing considered.

  188. AP says:
    @AnonfromTN

    Lol so you are claiming living standard was as high in USA as in USSR in 1991. You are full of such gems of wisdom.

    You do have a slight point, in that cost of living makes an impact. So perhaps in 1991 American standard of living was only 5 times higher than in the USSR despite wages being 10 times higher.

    Adjusted for cost of living, wages in Baltics are “only” about 40% higher than in Russia and still a lot lower than in UK, Germany, Sweden and Norway :

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
  189. melanf says:

    “Netflix acquired the rights to show the cult Russian films Brother and Brother 2 directed by Alexei Balabanov. ”

    So now Americans will be able to watch the most racist and intolerant film in history

    “You are not my brother, black-ass nit”

  190. @demografie

    I don’t know about you, I had money in the USSR in 1991 to buy the best meat and high-quality sausage. Problem was, to get good meat I had to go to a market in the nearby town and get there before 7 am, and to buy good sausage I had to go to Moscow (~100 km from where I lived). In the US good meat was in nearby supermarket. What I would call good sausage (not the American goo) was in Russian store within 30 min drive. Problem was, we did not have money for either, had to buy chicken drumsticks instead of meat (the cheapest kind available) and cured ham instead of sausage (again, the cheapest kind available) for ~2 years. We got back to the same living standard in the US only after my wife started bringing second salary (making our nominal income by currency conversion rate ~20-fold of what we earned in 1991 in the USSR).

    I know that the people who lived in Russia in the 1990s suddenly became dirt-poor, as compared to Soviet period. Many had trouble making ends meet. As one of my former colleagues expressed it, “you guys ran away to the US from the horrors of capitalism”.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @demografie
    , @Not Raul
  191. @AP

    Adjusted for cost of living

    Key point is, who does the “adjusting”. Creative accounting “produces” at least half of the US GDP out of thin air. The same creative accounting is largely responsible for “prosperity” stupid and/or dishonest propagandists like to use. Right now median income in the US gets you fewer tangible goods and services than median income in the RF. Not to mention non-tangible things, like lack of psychos and other homeless people in the streets (now even in some supermarket parking lots), absence of huge lines in the ER (where Americans w/o health insurance have to go), etc.

    In my estimation, current living standards in the US on average are ~2-3 times higher than in Russia, with the contrast between the top and bottom much greater in the US. As far as Europe goes (considering only the countries I visited), living standards in Germany, Austria, and UK are higher than in Russia, in France about the same, in Italy, Spain, Greece and the like somewhat lower, while in Hungary or Croatia substantially lower.

    Haven’t visited Baltics since Soviet times, and likely never will: the world is big, when I want to visit Europe I go for the originals, not third-rate copies.

    • Replies: @AP
  192. AP says:
    @AnonfromTN

    In my estimation, current living standards in the US on average are ~2-3 times higher than in Russia, with the contrast between the top and bottom much greater in the US

    This is actually probably accurate, with the exception of Moscow which is equal to the USA, or close to it.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  193. @AP

    Moscow is a country in itself. If the majority of RusFed was close to Moscow standard of living, then there would be nothing to argue about: living in RusFed would be way more comfortable than living in many (not all) Eastern European countries and some Western European ones too. But this convergence of the average RusFed standard of living to Moscovite levels will unfortunately probably never happen. And Moscow is a megalopole.

    [MORE]

    In 2016 I have been offered a job in my field in Moscow, where we still have our family apartment. The salary was somewhat similar to what I get paid today (which is of course way higher than the Russian average). I declined the offer for two reasons: my wife would never move to Russia and I did not want to live again in a big city apartment, I am too used by now to living in my own house in a quiet semi-rural area.

    I have actually declined an offer in Boston in 2011 and San Francisco / Bay Area in 2015 too for similar reasons, plus the cost of renting / prices for real estate there are just insane. I also prefer my kids growing in a safe environment outside of big cities. They will probably all move to some big city to study and work as my elder daughter already did, but while they’re still young, access to open air, safe and friendly community, calm environment are paramount for my wife and me. These are all aspects that you don’t find in Moscow, it’s not very family friendly. None of these megalopolises really is.

    Russia is a vast country, many smaller sized towns are charming and would be perfect for living a quiet family life. Unfortunately, Putin’s “vertical of power ” is draining all wealth and most economic activities towards Moscow which according to some recent estimates would possibly house up to some 30 million people by 2050 in a country of some 120 million people. The hinterland is emptying up, it becomes a flyover country between a couple dozen major agglomerations.

    Some people believe that this is something the RusFed elite actually want: easier to control the population and lower the costs of the economic activity that way. There are discussions centering on a plan to develop some 15 megalopolises to house the majority of the RusFed population and kind of abandon the hinterland.

    https://www.vedomosti.ru/opinion/articles/2017/07/07/714602-naznachennie-aglomeratsii

    I don’t think it’s a way to go to keep Russian territory under ethnic Russian control. But perhaps this is why they develop these plans: to lower ethnic Russian demographics and kind of divide the country in some 15 allied clusters.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  194. Mr. Hack says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Another really well written comment that offers some real insight regarding life within Russia.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  195. @Mr. Hack

    regarding life within Russia.

    It’s more about living in the globalized economy in this day and age. I see many similar problem unfolding in RusFed (which is not truly Russia to me) and in the West. Of course there are major differences, but smaller towns and villages are also emptying up in the West. People don’t realize that we are already entering the depopulation phase of the human global civilization with perhaps the MENA and Sub-Saharan Africa being the exclusive. We both would not live long enough to witness that, but my kids will probably grow old in a world of smart megalopolises standing in the middle of emptied lands inhabited by small communities with degraded infrastructures and lowered standards of living.

    I know that you like music Mr Hack, sometimes a good song expresses things in a more intuitive manner:

    [MORE]

    That’s the feeling…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Not Raul
  196. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    A huge city in any country will inherently involve living in an apartment. However Moscow has extensive dacha country which is accessible by public transportation. My kids have wonderful summer memories of time spent with their grandparents and Russian cousins in dachas that are built in a pine forest, fresh milk right from the cow, a lake…in large American cities one would have to drive a couple of hours to such places, in Moscow a little over an hour on the elektrichka.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  197. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    my kids will probably grow old in a world of smart megalopolises standing in the middle of emptied lands inhabited by small communities with degraded infrastructures and lowered standards of living

    I’m not sure. Scenic and pretty rural areas will have plenty of people working remotely. In the USA, Colorado and New England aren’t depopulating and don’t have degrading living standards.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  198. @AnonfromTN

    Well, I grow up in old mining town in Carpathia montains, so this might be that diffrence. We did check our high school class and 60% of classmates live in West. From Spain to Norway. Everybody start with same story. You can earn 300 usd or you can earn 1000 usd.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  199. @AP

    This is something that I was also previously expecting: that developments in information technology, transportation and sustainable energy would make living outside of big agglomerations easier and it would end up becoming the norm. But this is a question of cost optimization, population control and even more of control of technological development and information flows.

    We are already living as cells/units in a mutating economic organism. This organism is developing tumors, which like cancer, have intensive “economic metabolism ” at the expense of the remaining “body” of human civilization. The remaining population and territory beyond these “tumors ” (high tech megalopolises) will feel an increase in detrimental effects as time goes by and transformation accelerates.

    The concentration of the population in “Green” and “Smart” hi-tech megalopolises is just a question of time, as the Great Reset develops unimpeded. When all logistics will be optimized to lower the costs and energy expenses, when all information about any of the citizens will become 5G – linked and citizens will end up all becoming “stakeholders ” in a state that would actually become a “corporation” then living in a giant human anthill will be definitely the norm and living outside of it an exception.

    One only has to look at what is going on in East Asia to see what is coming next, they are some 15 years ahead of us in their “development ” (I don’t see this as a development, rather as the Technosphere eating up and replacing the Noosphere, but that’s another topic altogether).

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @AP
  200. @Bashibuzuk

    Cities are bound to change but I’m not sure in the direction you envisage. If working from home becomes standard for office type work then all those office blocks you see in downtowns and East Asia will be empty and ready for demolition. If online shopping becomes the norm then all those malls and shops would also become superfluous. The demand for hotels would also go down if video conferencing replaces meetings IRL and if travel becomes more difficult because of viruses and measures to combat them. Restaurants too could see closures and replacement with take-aways. If home based living is the future who will need all these cities, at least the way they look now?

    • Agree: AP
  201. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    While your negative scenario is not improbable, so far the trends (at least in the USA) are the reverse: people are leaving the large cities and settling places like the ski and mountain towns of Idaho, northern New England (which now has a reversal of population decline), Colorado, coastal Florida, towns in the wooded hills of North Carolina, etc. People are fleeing Silicon Valley for less densely populated Texas. Outdoor recreational activities such as hiking and mountain biking have become big business. Locals do of course complain that the ex-urbanites bring their progressive culture with them. The only rural areas losing people are those with bad climate and boring geography such as flat Kansas and Nebraska with their extreme weather and no ocean – although it seems Mexicans are moving to those places in order to work in their meat-packing plants.

    If there will be a hive, it will encompass a mental one spread across a network through mountains and forests and coasts, rather than some sort of physical anthill as in areas limited by geography such as the island of Singapore. Is Europe different, then?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @AnonFromTN
  202. @AP

    If there will be a hive, it will encompass a mental one spread across a network through mountains and forests and coasts, rather than some sort of physical anthill as in areas limited by geography such as the island of Singapore.

    Yes, this is what I would expect too if things were left to evolve naturally following the technological trends. But they are not allowed to evolve naturally by those who currently control the social evolution in what I call the globalized West and also in China (two faces of the same coin really when it comes to social evolution towards posthuman society).

    If we cling to technology and our current standard of living, we will be controlled more, online and IRL, including through logistics (Amazon delivery optimized to “reduce the carbon footprint “) and allocation of energy and ressources in general (UBI coupled with social credit). TPTB will offer us a choice: either you have the access to relative freedom, but have to live on your own, without access to much technology, or you have access to technology, but have to live in a panopticum where all you do is controlled. Thing is, they can’t let people and technology move forward towards the future unchecked. It’s too dangerous for them, and actually for all of us as well.

    Of course, the uber-rich will be above such dichotomy. They will have other moral dilemmas to face.

    BTW, this would also be my reply to Commentor Mike. They build smart cities not because it’s best for us as human beings or even better for the economy, but because it is best for the control on the evolution of the Technosphere. Therefore, even if the downtowns and shopping districts of the megalopolises turn to desert, they will still keep us in the human anthills.

    • Replies: @AP
  203. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I just returned from a one month trip to Minnesota. I spent my time there almost evenly divided between the Twin Cities and a small town of 18,000 people about 60 miles west of Minneapolis. Home prices have continued to blast upwards in “the Cities” but one can still find very livable homes in cities such as Hutchinson that offer everything an outdoor enthusiast might find attractive and at very reasonable prices, comparatively. My family bought a large 5 bedroom home with three bathrooms (4,200 sq feet), three fireplaces and even a built in jacuzzi in the large master suite for $305k one year ago. It’s located on a good sized lake that offers great fishing (bass, catfish, croppies, sunfish etc) and fantastic views from the three attached decks and huge picture windows in the living room. I’d hate to think what a similar home would cost in “the Cities” ($600 – 800k ?).

    ” Hutchinson has the nation’s second oldest city park system (only New York City’s Central Park is older).[12]” and what a nice park system it is! A great place to take a long walk, ride a horse, go snowmobiling, ride a bike or just sit on a park bench and meditate on the Crow River. The steady growth of new residents (13,000 in 2,000; 18,000 in 2021) is supported by a robust mixed economy including Minnesota’s perennial all star 3M. So yes, I’ll have to agree with you, that there are a lot of great smaller towns that one can still live in within the US.

  204. @demografie

    old mining town in Carpathia montains

    I was talking about RF. I lived ~100 km from Moscow. Carpathian mountains mean Ukraine. Looks like Ukraine is doomed to live in never ending 1990s. My parents lived in Ukraine (in Lugansk, which is now LNR, not Ukraine any more, thank goodness). They would have been dirt-poor without my help. On top of that, I had to evacuate my mother from Lugansk in 2015. I tried to convince her several times, but it’s not easy for a 91-year old to move half the world away. I managed to convince her only after Ukie shell exploded near the building where her apartment was and the explosion broke her windows. At about the same time Ukie shelling damaged water pumping station, so she had no running water. Power and natural gas were cut off by Ukie shelling even before that. Everything was restored only after LNR freedom fighters pushed Ukie bandits far enough from Lugansk to make shelling impossible. By that time she lived with us in TN. So, in addition to general contempt for traitors, I have my personal score with Ukie puppet government installed in Kiev by the Empire and its lackeys in 2014.

    • Replies: @Jazman
  205. @AP

    so far the trends (at least in the USA) are the reverse

    That’s not so much civilizational development, as the result of libtard-driven destruction of civilization. People move from crazy-blue places (like NY, OR, CA) that are becoming progressively (no pun intended) unlivable for a normal person to red states. Thank goodness, I live in a red state. Unfortunately, the city is blue, but not crazy blue, like NYC, Portland, SF, Seattle, and some other doomed cities. So far it’s livable.

    • Replies: @AP
  206. Not Raul says:

    Stanislav Goncharov appears to have a tattoo of Auschwitz on his back, with a kneeling prisoner getting shot in the back of the head in the foreground. That’s totally f*cked up.

    Does anyone know why Putin allowed Mariupol to be retaken?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  207. @AP

    Another opportunity for behind the scenes cooperation: the Ukrainian military rounds up all the sodomites in Kiev to be parachuted into Donbass, and the Donbassers get to test their SAMs, made by automechanics from old car parts.

    When the dust settles, both sides can just shrug their shoulders and say “Putler dunnit.”

  208. Not Raul says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    It’s more about living in the globalized economy in this day and age. I see many similar problem unfolding in RusFed (which is not truly Russia to me) and in the West. Of course there are major differences, but smaller towns and villages are also emptying up in the West. People don’t realize that we are already entering the depopulation phase of the human global civilization with perhaps the MENA and Sub-Saharan Africa being the exclusive.

    Many thanks to you and others for comments on this thread.

    Crowding people in to high density areas would tend to lower birth rates. It’s more expensive to have enough room for a larger family. Also, growing up in high density areas exposes kids to more anti-natalist attitudes.

    Farming families, and families with additional household based production, tend to have more births, since kids can be kept occupied, the older kids can help take care of the younger ones, and having them help with agricultural and other household production can contribute towards the cost of raising them.

    If Russians leave rural areas, making them more ethnic (Qypchaq, and so on), it would reduce Russian birth rates relative to ethnic birth rates.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  209. @Not Raul

    “Does anyone know why Putin allowed Mariupol to be retaken?”

    Russian Military support to Novorossiya has been rather minimal, from which we can infer that the intention was not to annex Novorossiya or even to support it as an independent viable client state, but rather to leave it as an unresolved crisis that can be used to apply pressure when necessary. Tragic but apparently true.

    • Thanks: Not Raul
  210. Not Raul says:
    @AnonfromTN

    I know that the people who lived in Russia in the 1990s suddenly became dirt-poor, as compared to Soviet period. Many had trouble making ends meet. As one of my former colleagues expressed it, “you guys ran away to the US from the horrors of capitalism”.

    Ironically, Wall Street, hedge funds, and multinationals helped loot Russia under Yeltsin.

    They’ve been doing the same thing to the West for decades; but the water temperature goes up more slowly in the West.

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/2/21348711/chicago-parking-meters-75-year-lease

  211. zn says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Oil refining, even though it its only possible from compatability and logistics with Soviet/ Russian infrastructure, Russian preferences and majority Russian investment…… should still not deserve to be classified as ” cheap money”.

    It requires skilled work, good technology and actual Belarusian workers. Its a gauge of how retarded Ukrainian state is and how uselessly retarded the average Galician is, that they were not able to setup some serious oil refining enterprise in that part of the state in modern day Ukraine because most of the other main areas of Ukraine do have concentrations of high expertise sectors, because its inexplicable how Belarus can make billions of dollars a year doing it but Ukraine couldn’t.

    Crude oil extraction is what is normally referred to as “easy money” , though even that is harsh for Russia – we do plenty of oil refining, unlike the Arab or African countries it is our own workers not foreign nationals doing the work in our oil sector…… and oil extraction costs and expertise are higher ( far higher for many of the wells in Siberia and far North) than they are in the Gulf region.

  212. @Not Raul

    If Russians leave rural areas, making them more ethnic (Qypchaq, and so on), it would reduce Russian birth rates relative to ethnic birth rates.

    It’s already happening in some Russian villages, Russian young people move to bigger towns leaving only the elderly behind, other ethnic groups move in and buy the houses for dirt cheap. I read recently about a village which had some 160 families in the late 1980ies, but only houses today a few elderly people. A Chechen family moved in and started a lamb farming project. Their 3 children are the only kids in that hamlet.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  213. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    This is true, but even progressives themselves are leaving the cities. They tend to move to leftist rural areas like Vermont rather than Idaho (or New Hampshire, which is next to Vermont but more conservative). In Texas they are worried, one can see stickers “Don’t California Texas.”

  214. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Perhaps but the trend in the opposite direction, at least in North America, has been so strong that it is doubtful that it will be reversed. There are too many people and too much infrastructure designed to spread out in the countryside, for some creation of physical cramped hives. Whether there will be mental hives through social media and monitoring is another story. Cages do not have to be physical.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN, Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  215. @AP

    There are a lot of people who would choose to live in the human anthill. Urbanites, progressives, transhumanists. They will opt for that and be happy with the outcome. Ours is the time of the Westerstroika leading to the upcoming Great Segregation, perhaps it will be less bloody than Religious Wars in Europe or Raskol in Muscovy. Maybe even less bloody than
    Perestroika. And if it is done without too much violence, it might actually end up being something positive for the next generations. Jedem das Seine…

  216. Mr. Hack says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    In a general sense, the movement of peoples from the countryside to the cities is a phenomena that’s been going on around the world for a very long time (centuries). In Eastern Europe and especially within Ukraine these processes were slowed down because of communism. The state found it expedient to employ slave labor on the collective farms and did everything to arrest the process of movement to the cities, even instituting an internal passport system where everyone was closely monitored and needed to show “good cause” for venturing out of the village into the city. The great abandonment of village life in Ukraine began with the collapse of communism. I suspect that within Russia things weren’t much different.

  217. Jazman says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Some interesting assessment of Ukie moral and capabilities by Ukie military
    https://twitter.com/gunner_schmulke/status/1401903357640560640/photo/1

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