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«Ромир»/GlobalNR poll with n=7,100 respondents across nine countries has some interesting if broadly unsurprising results. (Extra coverage).

Percentage that agree with: “Traditional gender roles for girls and boys are better suited for society.

  • China – 82%
  • Russia – 71%
  • India – 69%
  • Thailand – 48%
  • USA – 47%
  • Italy – 43%
  • UK – 37%
  • Brazil – 34%
  • Germany – 24%
  • Korea – 16%

In Russia, this viewpoint is, unsurprisingly, held more often by the married (77% to 61%) and those with children (79% to 67%), and perhaps more surprisingly, more often by women (73% to 68%) and by those with higher education (76% to 63%).

Could the “Soviet Freezer” really be more of a general purpose “Authoritarian Freezer”?

If a state is capable of and competent enough to influence the discourse in a certain direction – which will tend conservative, given authoritarian psychology and (by and large) the self-interest of the authoritarian state – perhaps that might actually be a more accurate moniker. (E.g., see the divergence between Russian and Polish views on gay marriage beginning a decade ago). This would, of course, primarily apply to those authoritarian states that are also outside the Western/American sphere of influence, and who have the “demographics of scale” to sustain their own self-contained “information ecosystems.” (So, primarily, China, and to a lesser extent, Russia).

***

Are offended by existence of transgenders:

  • Russia – 43%
  • Germany – 20%
  • Thailand – 15%
  • USA – 10%
  • Brazil – 10%

***

Support gay marriage:

  • Russia – 13%
  • USA – 59%
  • India – 63%
  • Germany – 69%
  • UK – 70%

***

Can men wear skirts:

  • Russia – 12%
  • China – 28%
  • Thailand – 29%
  • Korea – 29%
  • USA – 29%
  • Germany – 41%
  • Brazil – 45%
  • UK – 51%
  • India – 55%

***

The polls on female participation in the workplace have pretty strange results, especially the Italian figures on salaries.

“Women shouldn’t work”:

  • Russia – 18%
  • Italy – 8%
  • USA – 7%
  • China – 5%
  • UK – 3%

***

More women should be represented in executive roles in companies and organizations:

  • Russia – 33%
  • Germany – 57%
  • UK – 63%
  • USA – 63%
  • Brazil – 79%
  • India – 80%

The Russian responses to this are somewhat belied by it having some of the highest %s of women in management positions in the world.

***

Women should get the same salaries for similar jobs:

  • Italy – 33%
  • Russia – 82%
  • USA – 84%
  • Brazil – 95%

***

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Interesting. Thanks.

    In the UK, there’s strong support for men wearing skirts. Presumably, this is due to the popularity of the traditional Scottish kilt.

    Germans seem to be especially negative on traditional gender roles. Which is sort of strange. American workplaces are generally regarded as more favorable for women, while Germany is seen as being a bit more conservative on the accommodation of women. Perhaps this poll result is due to German social conformity. Fear of giving the “wrong” answer.

  3. songbird says:

    I’m shocked at the SK results. Don’t school girls there traditionally wear skirts? It’s been my pet theory that sex-specific school uniforms help create a less gay society, though, not a society immune to gayness.

    They should consider mandating facial hair for men on TV.

    • Replies: @SIMP simp
    , @showmethereal
  4. Women should get the same salaries for similar jobs:

    Italy – 33%
    Russia – 82%
    USA – 84%
    Brazil – 95%

    ***

    • LOL: AltSerrice, Dreadilk
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Pericles
  5. songbird says:

    Why does India seem based when it comes to the traditional gender roles question, but completely gay about everything else?

  6. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Italy probably has the ultimate answer of “I need more pay” to everything, with the collateral of “everyone else should be paid less.”

  7. @songbird

    Maybe men wearing skirts in India is considered a traditional gender role?

    • Replies: @songbird
  8. @JohnnyWalker123

    In the UK, there’s strong support for men wearing skirts. Presumably, this is due to the popularity of the traditional Scottish kilt.

    Maybe, but fewer than 10% of British are Scots. I think it’s probably just that Britain is kind of faggy and even the non-queer like cross dressing (e.g., every British comedian).

    American workplaces are generally regarded as more favorable for women, while Germany is seen as being a bit more conservative on the accommodation of women. Perhaps this poll result is due to German social conformity. Fear of giving the “wrong” answer.

    My personal observation of the Germano-Scandinavian axis that people of both sexes there will proclaim their allegiance to the gender-neutral stuff more than Americans will, but then having registered their progressive views they go on to behave more gender-traditional than Americans do. It’s like they want to check in that everyone agrees that anyone can do what they want irrespective of gender, then having obtained that agreement, they men do male stuff and women do female stuff.

    • Disagree: AlexanderGrozny
    • Replies: @Dissident
  9. Smith says:

    It is clear the US propaganda is not working. Good!

    I don’t think the stats in (South) Korea is true though, maybe there are some fuckery there.

  10. songbird says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Maybe men wearing skirts in India is considered a traditional gender role?

    I was thinking that, but then I decided to consult the highest cultural authority I could think of, namely the PM of Canada, so I typed in “Justin Trudeau Indian costume”…and he was wearing pants.

    But, maybe, he was just dressing up as a certain kind of Indian, and others wear togas, or something similar? Maybe, he wore Indian man-skirts on another day?

  11. Voltarde says:

    Out of an interest in Russian cinema (usually about WWII), I came across the “Russia Beyond” website. Presumably one of the website’s goals is to leave English speakers with a positive impression of the Russian Federation.

    If what is apparently youth/pop culture in Russia is any guide, Russian attitudes on cultural matters will eventually converge to those in the EU and the Anglo-sphere. It seems like it’s only a matter of time.

    20 best Russian music hits of 2020 (VIDEOS)
    https://www.rbth.com/arts/333162-best-russian-music-hits-2020

    Russia has a great heritage in literature and music. It’s sad to see these “hits” described as “best”.

    If Putin is reading your blog, he should ask himself what these “hits” portend for Russia’s future.

  12. SIMP simp says:
    @songbird

    SK media is very into girl power but the depiction is still like Buffy was on american tv 20 years ago: young, attractive, cute and feminine. Look for Itzy or Blackpink on YT to see what I mean.
    And of course this girl power drivel is written by men who boss these girls around and everybody knows that. Koreans haven’t woken yet to the bitter real face of girl power which is a middle aged crazed cat lady.
    When it comes to men SK girls are into androgynous guys. Male kpop idols and kdrama stars are young men who have boyish looks, anime hair and no beards, but often wear makeup, sparkly clothing and dyed hair. It’s also pretty common to see them promoting women’s products because their fans are almost all girls.
    Kpop idols of both sexes sometimes engage in sexual fanservice which is usually pretty tame touching other idols of the same sex for the titillation of their fans, so homosexual “shipping” of kpop idols is very common.
    Despite all this there is only one active kpop idol which is openly gay and he is not popular, the rest insist they are straight and that they want to get married. Many idols are openly christian. The guys go and get conscripted in the military for 2 years, drugs, bullying, crime and sexual scandals can get one banned from entrainment, every idol graduates from high school and many even from college, relationships are closely guarded secrets and the general expressed values are largely wholesome even if there’s a layer of progressivism on top of it.

  13. utu says:

    I do not think this poll can be taken seriously. Apart the sampling issue the questions are ideological constructs that may evoke hostility. Who thinks using sentence like this “Traditional gender roles for girls and boys are better suited for society.”?

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  14. Adrian E. says:

    „ The Russian responses to this are somewhat belied by it having some of the highest %s of women in management positions in the world.“

    The question is whether *more* women should be represented in management positions, so perhaps it is natural that already having a high percentage of women in management positions contributes to fewer Russians saying that an even higher percentage is needed.

  15. Bill H says:

    “The Russian responses to this [there should be more women executives] are somewhat belied by it having some of the highest %s of women in management positions in the world.”

    Belied? Well, think about it for a second. If you already have more female executives than anybody else, how likely are you to think that you should have even more than you already have?

    “So, 82% of our executives are women. Horrors, it should be 97% at least.”

  16. Rahan says:
    @SIMP simp

    SK media is very into girl power but the depiction is still like Buffy was on american tv 20 years ago: young, attractive, cute and feminine. Look for Itzy or Blackpink on YT to see what I mean.
    /…/
    When it comes to men SK girls are into androgynous guys. Male kpop idols and kdrama stars are young men who have boyish looks, anime hair and no beards

    SK is stuck in the family-friendly crypto-Hallmark version of the Western 1990s, complete with faggy boy bands like East 17, Backstreet Boys and so on.
    Just like most of Eastern Europe is trying to *achieve-but-not-overshoot-into-degeneracy* Reaganist America.
    In a sense even China is trying to do a sprawling version of crypto-Singaporean Reaganism.
    Most of the non-Western developed world clings to the Reagan-Bill Clinton spectrum of what it considers “proper Western normality” that it tries to emulate.
    Not Taiwan tho. Taiwan is diving into GloboHomo at Ireland speeds.

  17. Strange & a bit puzzling.

    I mean, the 1st question should be over 95%; also, Russia is “reactionary” re women working; Italy’s position regarding the last question is downright bizarre.

  18. The Italian position on salaries is correct. Women should be paid less because they should not have disposable and independent sources of income from their spouse. The world was much happier before wives were allowed to have credit cards.

  19. Pericles says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    It’s a weasel-worded question in the first place, of course. “Same salaries for similar jobs”. How about “Same pay for same job and same performance”?

  20. Questions are, at best, a strange mix.

    Gay, transgender & corporate questions are doubtless an American influence; “skirt question” is …. I don’t know what to say, except it is perhaps an attempt of feminization of boys, not a concession to crossdressers or Roman & Highlander nostalgia.

    Gays are OK; while I am not for their “marriage”, I don’t think it is the end of the world. Just, male homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt boys, because pedophilia is 10-times more prevalent among same-sexers.

    “Glass ceiling”…blah. Ambitious & normal men (and some women) work as much as they enjoy (if possible) at meaningful jobs; corporate jobs are a form of slavery & various lawyers, economists, consultants … can have as much female or male percentage as they wish; these are probably highly paid jobs, but they are staffed by essentially worthless non-people (Ch. Lagarde & the rest). They’ll all disappear when shit hits the fan.

    Transgender is a male sexual deviation promoted by current degenerate cultures. When authentic, it is less than 0.001% of the population (gender dysphoria).

    The bigger question is: how plastic the human nature is? Evidently, leftist lunatics think that it is almost 100% malleable; they are, of course, wrong. But, until the reality rolls over them, they’ll inflict an incalculable damage.

    Western individuals (if they’re “individuals” at all) have become so deranged I don’t know what to say. Here’s what happened not long ago here in Croatia (google translate, I’m too lazy to bother with grammar):

    https://www.vecernji.hr/premium/mazenje-poskoka-i-vabljenje-migranata-1278701

    In a pile of cool news this week, highlighted is a bizarre episode that leads to rather dull conclusions about the stage of civilization in which we have already steeped in quite a bit. Namely, a young Dutch woman on Biokovo mountain resort was bitten by viper as she went to cuddle him. After a timely emergency intervention, the patient was on a visit to KBC Split Clinic for several days. Luckily, the snake was young and emergency aid was very fast, otherwise the meeting with reality would end with death.

    Why would anyone go to embrace the terrifying and disgusting snake? The explanation lies in the distorted, Disneyesque image of the world in which there is no real evil and danger. Viper has always been what it is, the real cause of a short relationship with Biokovo’s life-changing event is life in the world without responsibility, where everything is good, everything is cool, exciting and all you need is “love.” The biggest life drama is a pimple or a surplus kilogram. It is the world of Nietzsche’s last man who blinks with his ordeal and hops across the ground.

    • Replies: @Dissident
  21. Nodwink says:

    Can men wear skirts:

  22. 128 says:

    Young Chinese in Tier 1 cities (those under 25) seem to be OK with LGBT stuff and do not fund anything unusual about it. Probably most of them would not have problems with gay marriage.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Daniel Chieh
  23. songbird says:
    @128

    China needs to get out ahead of the curve and stop the moral decline.

    In order to do this, I suggest that it re-evaluate its large commitments to WW2-era anti-Japanese propaganda. It can begin by slowly replacing the Japanese actors, with African actors. Dropping the Japanese flag in time, and replacing it with the rainbow flag, or else the Nigerian or pan-African flags.

    The next step is to develop a proper cultural sphere by demanding that countries air and promote this material, in return for trade with China.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  24. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Moral decline – decadence, debauchery – goes hand and hand with peak greatness, political power, and creativity.

    The early Roman Republic was morally austere, but decadence was extreme when Rome reached its apogee and vigorous figures like Ceasar, Pompey, etc began to appear.

    18th century Europe was extremely debauched, especially the elite classes, yet not only was it a time of great scientific and artistic creativity but also political greatness, colonialism, and empire.

    Renaissance Italy, once again, the most creative and vigorous period of Italian history, was incredibly debauched.

    Moral austerity goes with dullness, lack of imagination, a sense of weakness and need for security and clear guidelines. A sense of expanding power and self confidence, is exploratory, breaks bounds and rules, and does not place petty restrictions on itself.

    Moral austerity appears at the beginning of a peoples rise to power and prominence, but the rise to peak power can almost be said to be a process of casting off of old mental shackles and bonds, as a sense of expanding self confidence breaks through all restraints.

    The only thing about China that gives me any hope is that beneath a carefully curated surface appearance that everyone knows is false (except dull Westerners), it is an extremely debauched society, where one cannot go out with the boys (or girls) without the night invariably ending in a brothel. Such a society may yet end up producing something interesting.

    Of course there is a point on the arc from austerity to decadence that is a point too far – I would call that point dissolution. Decadence is the mid point, and extremely healthy. Dull moral austerity and complete moral dissolution are the points on the arc where things are boring. One needs tension.

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  25. songbird says:
    @SIMP simp

    SK is a interesting country in a lot of ways.

    They have a separate censorship board for the morals of youth. It would be fascinating to study this organization – probably it is not doing its job properly, which I think might require giving non-falsifiable political tests to people.

    They have their own cultural sphere to a larger extent than many countries, but it is perhaps somewhat hampered by being export-driven. Better, if they re-unified with best Korea, and developed a bigger domestic market.

    BTW, I’m not sure that a mandatory military draft is good for TFR, in a culture that worships education. They should have a marriage or dating draft instead. Israel is an interesting country because not everyone is subject to the draft. I believe the Haredi dodge the draft (and the education?) and have the highest TFR.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  26. AaronB says:

    Christian Western attitudes on tranagenders and gays have only recently caught up to Asian ones and to attitudes in Classical Greece and Rome. In Thailand trannys and gays are accepted, and they always were in China and traditional Asia. Effeminate men in general have been widely appreciated in Asia and Rome and still are.

    As they were in Europe for most of its period of greatness – the elite ideal was to be tough as steel inside, but to be very soft, smooth, and effeminate. Men with soft pale skin were admired, without big muscles ir broad shoulders. Read Jane Austen. Look at the colorful, fancy clothes men wore. The two were not considered opposites. It is only as the West became crude and barbaric in modern times, that the “macho” man was considered the ideal.

    Now that attitudes towards trannys and gays, and effeminate men in general and female qualities in general, are finally converging with those of the most vigorous civilizations the world has known, this may be a period where a dull conservatism beginning in the 19th century – signaled by a shift away from the colorful clothes of the 18th and towards a dull costume of drab colors that is the uniform of modernity, and away from appreciation for feminine qualities even in men abd towards a dull macho ideal – is finally transitioning to a time of greater imagination and vigor.

    We may be emerging from a civilizational dull period – as Thulean Friend said, this may be just the beginning.

    But to the timid conservatives, all endings seem frightful.

  27. They have a separate censorship board for the morals of youth.

    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    Are they doing their job?

  28. @Blinky Bill

    I’m not Korean. Could someone with the necessary cultural toolkit, help me decipher all the cultural nuances of this video? Especially the use of imagery and metaphor.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @128
    , @mal
  29. songbird says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Capybara miscegenation at @1:28?!

    But should we really be surprised? It is standing operating procedure for Koreans to do market research and tailor their product morally to its export target. If the target is Indonesia, they will make sure that the girls are wearing more clothing. Oftentimes, the K-Pop group will incorporate a local to help them sell to this target – in this case the mestizo Gomez – selling to Mexican-Americans, not Koreans.

    So, I guess this would be their view of Mexican Americans? Although they may have made a slight goof: Capybaras are native to South America, not Mexico.

  30. AaronB says:

    The problem is, that America only appears to be a decadent and debauched society, but is actually a morally austere one. Smoking, drinking, partying late, prostitution- are all out if favor in America, even as public culture appears very debauched.

    Asian countries are the opposite, public culture is staid, strait laced, and conservative, while everyone is partying it up and having the time of their lives, with tons of illicit sex, drinking, drugs, etc going on beneath the surface.

    This is because there is an inverse rule between public culture and actual reality. This should be established as an ironclad sociological rule.

    The conservative country is actually debauched, the debauched is actually Puritan. In the West, the ideal male is very macho – an extreme of masculinity. Yet this hides a brittle fragility- just as the masculine ideal becomes most extreme, the Western male is at his most fragile. The more feminine man of 150 years ago commanded more authority and respect from their women – the lace and heel wearing, whig wearing, makeup wearing, pale skinned, poetry quoting 18th century lord got more respect than the hyper masculine man of today.

    Therefore, as I have said elsewhere, the best arrangement for a society is to have a surface veneer that is dull, strait laced, conservative, and secure- this crust will permit the most exciting life just beneath the surface, as the tension between repression and the desire for freedom, appearance and human reality, boils over.

    Life thrives on tension. As the dark philosopher, Heraclitus, said, war is the father of all things. It is of course a metaphor. We moderns might say dialectic is the father of all things. As might Nagarjuna and the 6th Patriarch of Zen.

    • Replies: @songbird
  31. @Blinky Bill

    My personal favorite.

    [MORE]

    Wholesome!

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  32. 128 says:
    @Blinky Bill

    I find no objection to the taste of ice cream.

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  33. Korea not so long ago had values not unlike 1950’s America.

    If they are in favor of loosening gender roles, it probably means they think husbands can do dishes now.

  34. mal says:
    @Blinky Bill

    A big nosed rat rules over nubile young women and they eat his carrot while fluffy golden retriever is getting friend zoned. This is a masterpiece of a documentary, if I may say so myself.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @songbird
  35. The Russian responses to this are somewhat belied by it having some of the highest %s of women in management positions in the world.

    Perhaps Russian experience with female managers is precisely what has led so many Russians to the conclusion that females should not be managers.

    • Agree: mal
  36. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    Moral decline – decadence, debauchery – goes hand and hand with peak greatness, political power, and creativity.

    Rather, it seems to lead to the lowering of quality control on everything. A collapse in aesthetic standards. A promulgation of unoriginality, and appeal to the low-browed.

    In Thailand trannys and gays are accepted

    I wonder if this is really true, or if this is just the urban decadence of Bangkok, being taken as the schema of Thai society, and being promoted externally, by provocateurs.

    In the West, the ideal male is very macho – an extreme of masculinity.

    There’s been a perceptible change in action heroes since peak Schwarzenegger. I would say that bulk is no longer idealized as it once was.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AaronB
  37. songbird says:
    @mal

    I find the name of the group remarkable: Blackpink.

    They’ve achieved the highest success of any Korean group in the West, by leading with “black.”

    • Agree: mal
  38. Tor597 says:
    @songbird

    India is not based on gender roles.

    Gang raping babies and then setting the bodies on fire is not trad, it is primitive.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  39. @128

    Being okay with yuri weirdness is different from accepting it as marriage valid. Asian hypocrisy works in their favor there.

  40. @AaronB

    Your perception of Asian reality is as accurate as your theory of mind. To any extent your rambles were true, it is no longer so under Xi Dada.

    The end product of chaos is tumor and death. Like you, it serves a purpose as a bad example.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  41. @songbird

    Peak Schwarzenegger was epic though I think that Conan always had a mild homoerotic element to it. Anything too martial often does.

    • Replies: @songbird
  42. Dissident says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The bigger question is: how plastic the human nature is? Evidently, leftist lunatics think that it is almost 100% malleable;

    Except when they don’t, such as in the case of homosexuality, which they insist is always, without exception both innate as well as immutable. If, however, one takes the view that it is at least entirely plausible that the experiences and influences of an individual during the formative years of his childhood and adolescence may affect how his sexuality ultimately forms, then this concern alone would, at a minimum, be a compelling and even insurmountable argument against adoption of children by individuals who identify or behave outside of the bounds of normative heterosexuality.

    Concerning the adoption of children, however, is there not an even simpler, more elementary reason to insist that it be limited (at least when such an option exists) to heterosexual, married couples? Is it not intuitive and logical that a child needs and deserves nothing less than to be raised by a normal (female) mother and normal (male) father? That nothing can be equivalent to that natural default and ideal?

    The scourge of the Gay Liberation/”LGBTQ” movement, in a nutshell, lies in its (a) normalization, promotion and celebration of

    [MORE]
    objectively unwholesome voluntary behaviors; (b) duplicitous conflation of these with involuntary feelings; (c) creation of a weaponized identity that reduces those who embrace it to mere slaves of their animal lusts, while sacralizing and conferring upon them protected, eternal victim status; (d) insidious indoctrination, recruitment and conditioning of impressionable, conflicted often confused youth into such depravities. Elaboration and elucidation, including supporting links and citations, can be found across numerous posted comments of mine available in my archive. The interested reader is kindly directed to begin first here, a post consisting primarily of the latest version of my Outline for a Comprehensive, Multi-pronged Response to Individuals Struggling with Exclusive Same-Sex Attraction. And then proceed to here. As should become apparent from reading the linked posts, my views in this and related areas are actually considerably more complex, nuanced, and carefully thought-out than this and many of my other comments, taken in isolation, would suggest.

  43. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    When Schwarzenegger took up body-building, his parents initially worried he was gay. Supposedly, he had to slim down a bit – drop muscle mass – for his role as Conan. I recall reading a Robert Howard story once, and there was a passage so unmistakably homoerotic, something about his bronzed body climbing a cliff and his silk loincloth that I immediately stopped reading.

    Howard was a curious case, since a lot of neo-reactionaries seem to appreciate the way he evoked the sentiment of Genghis Khan and some of these early theories about population movements. But, I believe, he also styled himself a feminist, and promoted butt-kicking babes, which has now become the Western ideal.

    BTW, I seem to recall that Anatoly seemed to under-appreciate the first Conan movie. Perhaps, he was struck by this aspect of the movie.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  44. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    There’s been a perceptible change in action heroes since peak Schwarzenegger. I would say that bulk is no longer idealized as it once was.

    Thats because society is learning to better balance masculinity with feminity, which inevitably leads to creativity – creativity is the tension between two ideals.

    Since the 19th century, the masculine ideal has been pushed as far as it will go, which resulted in grotesqueries like feminism in which women are taught to despise feminine qualities and worship male qualities.

    As feminine qualities come to be more genuinely admired and even men begin to acquire them, feminism will vanish as women learn to genuinely respect themselves again.

    When women see men as hyper masculine, they despise themselves and want to be men. When they see men embrace the feminine in themselves, they will feel comfortable as women.

    Rather, it seems to lead to the lowering of quality control on everything. A collapse in aesthetic standards. A promulgation of unoriginality, and appeal to the low-browed

    This is the point where moral decadence- healthy – passes over into moral dissolution. High culture is a tightrope walk – a product of tension. Dull conservatism is aa deadly too it as too much moral permissiveness.

  45. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Lol, no.

    China is still a place of great sexular license and general corruption, as is Asia as a whole, beneath a veneer of conservative mores.

    Its true that under Xi the wonderful freewheeling attitude of China is diminishing- which is why China’s economic vitality is lessening of late, and its chance of becoming a new Athens receding into the distance- a onetime dream never to be realized. China is congealing into an unimaginative, conservative “engineering” empire, like ancient Rome, and will (continue having) to subcontract its thinking out to the more chaotic regions of the world, where Athens will continue to reign.

    In the end, the legacy of CCP China will be the vast engineering works, the islands carved out of the sea, the shiny towers, the railways – like Rome, the vulgar man’s paradise. A thousand years hence, today’s China will be known, by a fragment of surviving railway, like the aqueducts left by Rome, and not by any intellectual legacy.

    Complete order is stagnation, strangulation, and death, as complete chaos is a tumor. The two poles represent the death of too much vitality and too little. Like you, China will serve as a lesson of the death that is complete order.

  46. @Daniel Chieh

    I assume the Italians sample was a 50/50 gender split. So assuming all men voted in the negative for that question, that still leaves 34% of Italian women wanting to be paid less for the same job.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  47. @songbird

    Howard himself may have been a repressed gay – its hard to say, if I recall correctly, he only ever had one girlfriend and spent much of his time caring for his life; similar to BAP, I remember one of his letters where he basically complained that women weren’t good enough in this era, so he essentially was disappointed in them, and I wonder if similar to BAP, he was secretly gay or at least trending that way.

    I skimmed wiki which indicated feminism, which is funny but no, despite the appearance of an extremely few women who could fight, the vast majority of his female characters are helpless or fierce only against other women. Women lack physical prowess power in his stories, but do not lack in cruelty, so they are often agents of some of the most terrible things, and even more notably for purely hedonistic reasons(Salome in A Witch Shall Be Born comes to mind). The pairing of cruelty with powerlessness and cowardice makes them arguably some of the most dislikeable characters; even the extremely cruel slavemaster in Giant of Iron was redeemed in some extend to me because of his courage.

    A better evidence of his homoeroticism I think comes from his writing, which you’ve mentioned can seem to be awfully fond of the male body. I love Howard, but its very clearly a lot of “male interest” and material, even in its essentially muscular action of badasses great and small, clashing with each other. Women tend not to be very fond of his work, and I remember reading a woman talking about sexuality and it made sense(and in a way, tilitation does pervade the thrill in a lot of reading): women are more into the dynamic of the predator-prey, but Conan really has no prey(women, etc, are all stage dressing, really).

    Its just predators clashing with predators. Dick wagging can be a lot of fun for male readers and Conan is very good dick wagging literature(Howard is one of my favorite writers), but I can see how its appeal can be lost on those who find that dumb.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
  48. @AaronB

    Its particularly cute how you talk about vitality and change while assuming the exact same secular cycles. Humans were hunter-gatherers for 99.5% of our existence, subsistence-level farmers for 0.5 percent of it, and industrialized for less than 0.008 percent of it. Your rambles are as useful as that of a hunter-gatherers on the internal workings of a nuclear engine.

    But hilariously, you assume that you’re talking about vitality while using the same essentially broken models. Not that it matters, of course, since you’re neither attempting to discuss in good faith nor doing anything except exhibiting the incoherence of bullshit and brain damage.

    • Agree: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon99
  49. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Women agreeing that they should be paid less would indeed be a powerful take. Let’s hope it is so.

  50. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am not making any claims about the long term viability of civilization.

    Just talking about observed patterns of all civilizations so far. And within that time frame, clear patterns emerge. We disregard them at our peril.

    I am also making claims based on first principles. Logically, absolute control and order, means absolute stasis. Just as uncontrolled growth, means a tumor.

    It doesn’t matter if civilization only has been around a tiny fraction of human existence. Within that tiny fraction of time, patterns have emerged that characterize civilization so far. No one is saying what very long term trends are, and from a longer time frame, other patterns might emerge. The pattern depends on the level of magnification. The pattern within a tree is not the pattern of the forest, which is not the pattern of the continent.

    This is elementary stuff.

    You think I’m being insincere, because like most conservatives you’re not smart enough to see the larger picture – you see the value of order, which I see too, but you don’t see the value of chaos. You don’t see the larger picture. So you assume anyone who doesn’t choose either chaos or order, must be in bad faith. You operate within very narrow cognitive limits. In some ways you’re normally intelligent, in other ways you’re dumb (which gives the lie to g by the way).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @iffen
  51. @AaronB

    You think I’m being insincere, because like most conservatives you’re not smart enough to see the larger picture – you see the value of order, which I see too, but you don’t see the value of chaos.

    As usual, you fail at theory of mind and thus your understanding of “conservatives” is as bad as your understanding of anything else. Its interesting how you process “first principles” when you fail to understand anything but the strawman you’re beating on.

    But this essential incapability of thinking(while accusing others of “narrow cognitive limits”) does remind me of the fundamental Dunning Kruger of self-delusion in much drug use:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336648/

    The findings suggest that cannabis with low potency does not have any impact on creativity, while highly potent cannabis actually impairs divergent thinking.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  52. @songbird

    They have a separate censorship board for the morals of youth. It would be fascinating to study this organization – probably it is not doing its job properly, which I think might require giving non-falsifiable political tests to people.

    I have bit of familiarity with this as I worked with an SK organization. They’re not focused on “tradition”; rather, my experience is that they’re focused on projects with government financing. Their main criteria is that:

    1) Can’t portray positive drug use
    2) Can’t portray positive criminality
    3) Unstated, but, can’t portray Japan positively.

    Doesn’t have anything about poz.

    Only “trad” legislation that I know of Russian’s anti-gay propaganda law, largely unenforced. China’s Ministry of Culture randomly censors things for “anti-societal or morally negative” reasons as well, but operates different from SK in that it is usually ‘after creation” censorship rather than “front-loaded” censorship prior to production.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  53. Dissident says:
    @Almost Missouri

    I think it’s probably just that Britain is kind of faggy and even the non-queer like cross dressing (e.g., every British comedian).

    1.) How indicative of or related, if at all, is humorous cross-dressing of a type that you yourself characterized as “non-queer” to anything involving any actual homoeroticism?

    2.) Does whatever ‘fagginess’ you refer-to in Britain* exist across socio-economic lines? Or primarily within certain ones, such as the upper classes?

    3.) It has been argued that England has, at some level at least, a certain rather prevalent homoerotic culture thanks to the phenomenon of the elite boarding schools that is the subject of the Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy book pictured in the photo I have attached. The book discusses this and may, though I do not recall clearly, make in this very context explicit mention of the fact that homosexuality has been called “The English Disease”.

    *Are you sure you properly meant Britain and not England?

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  54. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Policeman Chieh, responding to a disturbance of the peace – someone had an unusual and creative thought and used his mind in unauthorized ways 🙂

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  55. @AaronB

    What you don’t realize is that you’re not edgy, but genuinely boring. It’s only the total nonsense that you sprout that makes it worth my time to call it out to others.

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
  56. AaronB says:

    Judging by history, it seems clear that peak civilizational achievement is correlated with a greater acceptance of trannys and gays, and men who are at least somewhat effeminate.

    Maximum masculinity (Conan), a harsh attitude toward females, and fear of gays and unusual sexuality, seems characteristic of barbaric ages and late stage declining civilization, when civilization is returning to barbarism. The two bookends of civilization, as it were.

    Examples are too numerous to mention, to the point where I can’t think of a counterexample.

    This also makes intuitive sense, as expanding self confidence, virility, and vigor, is exploratory and fearless, curious, and all conquering. Fear contracts– it leads to restricted boundaries, severe limits, and lack of curiosity.

    Of course, culture is a tightrope walk between the fearful conservative and the fearless adventurer – high culture, high achievement, is the result of tension. If the weak and fearful becomes dominant, too much order ensues, and culture suffocates. If the bold and fearless dominate, chaos reigns supreme, and things disintegrate.

    From the late 19th century onwards, the West might be seen as moving more and more towards order and control, to the point of strangulation. This is reflected in changing fashion – gone are the colorful and exuberant costumes of the 18th century, and in with the black suit and tie, heralding dull conformity and un-imagination.

    This “little ice age” may be receding. Its too early to tell. It may be a new barbaric control system-and excessive control os always redolent of barbarism. High culture is adventurous- is being developed among the Left, that forms a new conservatism. Or it may be a transition to something higher.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  57. Anon99 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thanks. I don’t know what’s funnier, the WN chest thumpers or Aaron’s pseudo intellectual sophist BS.

  58. @Blinky Bill

    A promotion of female adolescent whoring.

  59. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    It’s only the total nonsense that you sprout that makes it worth my time to call it out to others

    .

    Policeman Chieh helpfully takes the time to inform others what they should be thinking 🙂

    Because otherwise others wouldn’t know what to think. They may even think for themselves!

  60. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    You’re not supposed to sniff those moonbeams, just collect them in a jar.

  61. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese are less accepting of gays and trannies than Russians. My impression of Chinese society is that their attitude towards those sorts of social issues would be more laidback and indifferent than Russian society.

    I would surmise that the reason China has such a high percentage of support for trad con gender roles is because the country’s values and culture is “officially” based on old world European Marxism/Communism, even if in reality the country is hardly Marxist/Communist at all, but if Chinese people are directly asked a question on a particular social issue they will mostly give the “official” party view even if it’s not what they actually believe or are indifferent to the issue.

    Beneath the veneer of the official Marxist/Communist party view, Chinese culture is a typical East Asian culture that has far more in common with Thai and South East Asian culture and attitudes than Russian/traditional Christian cultures.

    If either legalises gay marriage I strongly suspect that China will be first, I think China has already implemented a sort of civil union type system for gays (although I don’t think they actually call it that), whereas Russia has absolutely no legal recognition of gay couples at all as far as I’m aware.

  62. @Daniel Chieh

    3) Unstated, but, can’t portray Japan positively.

    That… is really fascinating.

  63. Juvenalis says:
    @Europe Europa

    Republic of China i.e. the ethnically/culturally Chinese nationalist government in exile on Taiwan, was already first country in Asia to legalize gay marriage. Taipei also home to largest gay pride marches in Asia for past 17 years. Not just the Orient; Taiwan Pride largest of entire Asian continent (including Tel Aviv in West Asia—Israel used to like to boast as distraction to “pinkwash” the rest of Israel’s human rights record); in recent years Taiwan Pride drew ~250,000 participants to streets of Taipei and Kaohsiung on the small island nation.

    Republic of Korea (which coincidentally as Taiwan also began transition from military dictatorship to free market democracy in 1987) would probably have gay marriage, obstructed not by traditional Korean values, but large influential minority of U.S.-inspired Evangelical Protestants voting bloc; only country in East Asia with significant and politically well-organized SoCon fundie Christian population (~20% Protestant, 8% Catholic).

    Late 19th/early 20th century Westernization also responsible for reluctance on gay marriage in Japan; largely secular; but traditional Shinto, Buddhist, Confucian beliefs don’t share Abrahamic Torah condemnations on sexuality anyway. Homosexuality was common among Buddhist monks and Japanese samurai. Also in some cases pederastic relationships between masters and their acolytes they train, comparable to Ancient Greeks. Or, like the Sacred Band of Thebes—homoerotic partners who crushed the Spartans—Japanese warriors bonded by homoerotic love made better soldiers to fight and die for each other.

    Other than Taiwan’s official state recognition of same-sex marriage, South Korea and Japan among the most tolerant worldwide; Seoul and Tokyo home to large Pride parades for past 20 and 26 years, respectively. It preferably goes unspoken in most daily life, but homosexuals not targeted by officials, banned, pursued, hunted for violent persecution as in Russian Federation (Muslims as usual the worst offenders; vide Chechnya).

    Also, Oriental Asians just tend to naturally not exhibit as much sexual dimorphism. Northeast Asian men often fail Western/American “manliness” norms; East Asian men exhibit both physical and personality traits that would be perceived as feminine in the U.S. E.g. look at K-Pop boy stars to see androgyny is normal and even celebrated in ideal beauty standards for Korean males. (And Japan: see popular yaoi androgynous “boys’ love” genre.)

  64. EldnahYm says:
    @AaronB

    Maximum masculinity (Conan), a harsh attitude toward females, and fear of gays and unusual sexuality, seems characteristic of barbaric ages and late stage declining civilization, when civilization is returning to barbarism. The two bookends of civilization, as it were.

    Examples are too numerous to mention, to the point where I can’t think of a counterexample.

    Boy fucking among Pashtun tribesman. Two spirit people among Amerindians. That’s two counter-examples off the top of my head.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AaronB
  65. @Europe Europa

    The likelihood of China legalizing gay marriage is the same as aaronb turning against jews.

    That is more likely than aaronb start typing logical comments.

    The fact that the west got taken over by retarded zionists like aaronb n a123 makes me lose all hope for the west.

  66. @Juvenalis

    Late 19th/early 20th century Westernization also responsible for reluctance on gay marriage in Japan; largely secular; but traditional Shinto, Buddhist, Confucian beliefs don’t share Abrahamic Torah condemnations on sexuality anyway.

    This is not accurate. Buddhism has a spiritual understanding of what we’ll consider as homosexuals as a kind of intersexual third sex but nonetheless considers them as defective(if acceptable). Confucianism is mostly practical and doesn’t really have an major opinion about it, but it does have an opinion on the importance of family and things that detract from family are negative to it; it also notably has opinions on the role of each member of the family, and gays really don’t fit into it(and if they don’t have children otherwise, can’t fit in it at all). Legalism, the real standard of what the CCP is using, only is concerned with how it affects the power of the state, and right now, globohomo is certainly not doing them any good.

    Pederasty is indeed common in a lot of martial cultures(and that was really just Japan of the three), but this is quite distinct from homosexuality these days, especially the “gay bathroom” kind.

    It preferably goes unspoken in most daily life, but homosexuals not targeted by officials, banned, pursued, hunted for violent persecution as in Russian Federation (Muslims as usual the worst offenders; vide Chechnya).

    East Asians are generally passive aggressive people. Individuals are punished not through open beatings but through declined job prospects, increased monitoring and group punishment that includes their family(because the family is usually considered responsible for the sins of their children). The goal is to drive people to good behavior – or suicide, which is very common.

    Beyond that, gays frequently exist in a marginalized “camp” role, especially in actor positions, but essentially they’re forever kept in a fairly low status position. In practice, an open gay can’t really hold anything but the lowest of political positions, as individuals with children are usually the only ones who get promoted(in practice, this means basically just men, as well). This is essentially explicit in the CCP.

    Also, Oriental Asians just tend to naturally not exhibit as much sexual dimorphism.

    It is because of the reduced natural phenotypical masculinity(esp. lower testosterone) that social controls have been of much greater importance historically, and thus also why things fall apart much faster when social controls are disrupted – but also why you see a lot more stiffness in defense of “traditional values” since really the social controls have been of paramount importance.

    Incidentally, though, the lowered testosterone also seems to have contributed positively in not creating the “gay mafia” which seems to be common elsewhere.

  67. @EldnahYm

    Its more accurate to say that strict moral standards are characteristic of collectivistic societies under pressure, including the Roman Republic’s expansionary era or Plymouth colony endurance in the New World(notably they did a lot better than Jamestown).

    It really has little to do with “barbarism’, whatever that really means. The Yanomami(primitive agriculturalists) have a larger civilization, but are much more morally restrictive than hunter-gatherers like Hadza; does this mean that they are more barbaric? It mostly seems a function of violence and organization(the need to support a “soldier role” in society that takes a lot of resources + necessity to maximize enough children to replace losses).

    But I mean, AaronB is using a fictional character of hilariously inaccurate proportions for his thinking(can’t wait to see if a tribal warrior can bench 400 lb and then just get swatted by a poisoned arrow), its not really worth debating.

  68. @Europe Europa

    Beneath the veneer of the official Marxist/Communist party view, Chinese culture is a typical East Asian culture that has far more in common with Thai and South East Asian culture and attitudes than Russian/traditional Christian cultures.

    Confucian cultures have precious little to do with Southeast Asian cultures. Legalist systems have even less.

  69. AaronB says:
    @Europe Europa

    There are in general broad and deep similarities between Chinese and and Southeast Asian cultures, particularly pronounced in Vietnam, but evident across the region.

    This has been widely noted by observers. Thais and Laotian people actually immigrated from Southern China, and are ethnically Chinese, basically, and many Chinese immigrated in more recent times.

    That being said, there are differences. Asia as a whole exhibits a sort of overarching cultural unity that nevertheless contains diversity, much like the West.

    There is a certain overarching unity between say Italy and England, but also important differences.

    China is also trying to reinvent itself along Western lines much more so than a place like Thailand, for instance, so thats another difference.

    But indeed, on gays, trannys, etc, Asia does present a sort of pan cultural unity.

  70. AaronB says:
    @Juvenalis

    Also, Oriental Asians just tend to naturally not exhibit as much sexual dimorphism. Northeast Asian men often fail Western/American “manliness” norms; East Asian men exhibit both physical and personality traits that would be perceived as feminine in the U.S. E.g. look at K-Pop boy stars to see androgyny is normal and even celebrated in ideal beauty standards for Korean males. (And Japan: see popular yaoi androgynous “boys’ love” genre.)

    Western men were also much more androgynous until the late 19th century (lace, ruffles, whigs, makeup, heels). In Jane Austens novels, the male ideal is quite androgynous, and nothing like what it is today.

    We’ve gone through a “rebarbarative” process starting in the late 19th century, where all high culture began declining, and a sort of dull, “sober”, mechanical culture gained prominence – a barbarism of reason, as Leopardi said – from which we might be emerging.

    Its unclear if the Left is creating a new barbaric control system – and all excessive control systems are barbaric. The barbarian is characterized by ignorance and thus fear, and the need to control. High culture is characterized by growing enlightenment and self confidence, and a relaxation of control and a return to man’s natural innocence through culture (high culture is a second childhood) – or if the Left is heralding a new age of loosening controls, which means high culture.

    We shall see.

  71. AaronB says:
    @EldnahYm

    Pashtun society is not actually accepting of gays – boy fucking is more a form of domination and forced servitude. Adult homesexual behavior involving affection is not tolerated- and attitudes towards women are about as harsh as possible (which, in a perverse way, leads to the boy fucking. Women are actually considered disgusting in this extreme Islamic society).

    This is a dark, harsh world with perverse outcomes- a far cry from the soft, liberal attitudes I am describing, which always appear at peak civilization.

    I don’t know what two spirit people means.

  72. Dreadilk says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Just added to my list of things to read.

  73. @JohnnyWalker123

    I’m really shocked to read that about Germany… What happened? Is it WW2??? I honestly can’t say I know German culture except that I love German cars – I love to watch Bundesliga – and I like the beer. I always thought of Germany being “traditional”… So what is the cause??

  74. @songbird

    Yes but look at K-pop. Those guys are so feminine. Same as in Japan. Sadly I’ve seen where the young in China are fans of K-pop. Thankfully China hasn’t given fully over – but the poll numbers. I hope China can hold on and hold out.

  75. @SIMP simp

    What you describe kind of reminds me of something I have observed personally. A guy I worked with kept his very conservative Asian values. He and his wife – happily married almost 40 years now… But his daughters he raised in the western way… Told them to “get a top job so you don’t need a man to support you”. His wife worked… But they still had a very traditional marriage and household otherwise. So why did he tell his daughters that??? One had 2 broken marriages – over very quickly – and the other shows little desire for a relationship. I really don’t get it… Why would he grow his daughters in this way??? The Asian young men the daughter married were very traditional – so it couldn’t work.

  76. @AaronB

    Your mistake is comparing China to Rome. The Chinese government is trying to recreate the glories of the Han Dynasty (ran current when Rome was at it’s apex) – Song – Tang etc.
    Sure there is immorality… But licentious behavior – like in Singapore (another Confucian society) is banned. That includes homosexual and even promiscuous behavior.

    Putin seems to think about Rome when he declared there will be no homosexual marriage in Russia. But Xi isn’t thinking of Rome. Same hope and expectation – but not the same reference. The only powerful countries standing up against the tide of debauchery are Singapore (though no comparative military power) Russia and China. Many of the poor and weak countries are looking up to them though.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  77. @Juvenalis

    Tsai and the DPP forced gay marriage through the legislature to appease their western handlers. A vote was held the previous year and the people voted to NOT teach about it in schools to children. They knew it wouldn’t pass for actual marriage – so they forced it through. The DPP is disgusting for many things – and that is one.

  78. Dissident says:

    Can men wear skirts:
    UK – 51%

    Apropos, while searching for something else, I came across news stories such as the following.

    Cardiff schoolboys turn up to classes in skirts in protest at ‘no shorts’ rule [WalesOnline, July 2013]Boys come to school wearing skirts following ban on shorts [The Telegraph, June 2017]

    School bans boys from wearing shorts, telling them to wear skirts instead [The Independent, June 2018]

    It is understood to be part of a gender-neutral uniform policy at Chiltern Edge School

  79. Smith says:

    Homosexuality in traditional Asia is seen as a fetish, not a “sexual orientation” as with the modern western view (where gays can only their own sex), Asian lords can have female wives, concubines but he can also fucks some other males, that doesn’t matter as long as he bears heirs.

    This is in fact closer to what’s viewed in the traditional western world, femininity is more on the receiving end (i.e. being fucked), while the masculinity is the dominating (the fucker), regardless of the actual sex.

    @showmethereal

    LOL, to place Singapore next to China and Russia as a “powerful countries”, how hilariously delusional.

    • Replies: @Dissident
  80. Dissident says:
    @Smith

    Homosexuality in traditional Asia is seen as a fetish, not a “sexual orientation” as with the modern western view (where gays can only their own sex)

    Is there any historical precedent for the contemporary Western phenomenon of defining oneself by one’s sexuality? Or, more specifically (and perhaps more accurately), of creating a primary identity and accompanying political constituency based upon any specific sexual proclivities or behaviors, let alone aberrant ones?
    (A phenomenon that is far from harmless, with particular risk of insalubrious consequences for impressionable, confused and conflicted youth.)

    This is in fact closer to what’s viewed in the traditional western world, femininity is more on the receiving end (i.e. being fucked), while the masculinity is the dominating (the fucker), regardless of the actual sex.

    This would most certainly appear to be the overwhelmingly prevailing model for male homoerotic relationships and culture: a more masculine, assertive, dominate male penetrating a less masculine, often overtly effeminate, submissive male.

    A radically different, egalitarian, masculinity-affirming, emphatically anti-buggery* model of male homoerotic love and expression is presented at the web site of the Man2Man Alliance. Founder Bill Weintraub coined the term frot for the non-penetrative, mutually-genital act that he advocates– not only as an objectively far safer, cleaner, completely pain-free, sadism-free, masochism-free, more dignified alternative to the buggery that is incessantly whitewashed, glorified and promoted in the prevailing model, but also as simply the ultimate and truest form of male homoerotic intercourse.

    If males are going to carnally, homoerotically engage with each other, then doing so in accordance with the principles presented at the man2manalliance ( .org ) web site is far preferable, on any number of levels, to the prevailing model that it distinguishes itself in rejection of and opposition to. (Note: graphic content.)

    *Buggery= anal penetration; the patently nocuous, inordinately disease-promoting travesty of treating an anatomical structure that is exclusively eliminatory in its function as if it were copulative.

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