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militant

Bad news: No real poasting from August 13-21.

Good news: There’ll soon be travel reports for Novgorod and Bryansk (probably Ryazan too before the month is out).

As my travel reports seem to be well received, I’ll make a note to start doing more of them in the future. I have recent material/observations on a few Russian cities (not Moscow/SPB), most recently Novgorod.

In the future, you can access an expanding, categorized list of travel reports here: http://akarlin.com/travel/

Thank you to all the people who donated: TW, DJ, SP, AC, JB, and the anonymous BTC contributor.

Many excellent comments at the Romania thread. I didn’t have time to participate much in the discussion, but I did read all the comments and learned a lot from them (esp. via Vendetta, anon, Seraphim, Old Romanian).

PS. I really loved the feel of the Mosin rifle in my hands. No wonder it was so successful.

 
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  1. Swedish elections are due in a few weeks. Dunno if there is any interest in them, but here are my unsolicited two kronor.

    1. SD will likely be 2nd biggest party, more or less doubling their vote share since the last election.

    2. The biggest center-right party (M) now realises that they need SD to have power where they call the shots. The other alternative is a ‘grand coalition’ á la CDU-SPD in Germany. But such a coalition would necessarily be dominated by the Social democrats (S) since they are likely to have a bigger vote share (23% for S to 18% for M).

    3. My guess is that the center-right will try to form an unstable minority government with SD but buckle under relentless pressure from Jewish media like Bonnier and opt for a grand coalition itself.

    4. However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy. He has turned around on gay adoptions. Sputnik actually had a good article
    on this some weeks ago.

    5. The final result will likely be somekind of muddle-through, either in a grand M-S coalition (with some centrist opportunistic parties thrown in) or a center-right coalition with SD support, which is much more palatable to the mainstream given how defanged SD has become and essentially steadily surrendered to the left’s paradigm on key issues.

    6. It is likely that the destruction of Sweden will slow, but any truly radical alternatives have been banned. AfS is not very radical, they are essentially SD of 10 years ago and if voted into power, they will follow the same trajectory. This is because AfS at the outset refuses to accept the concept of ethno-nationalism and if you cuck on a key principle from the getgo, you will never win in the long run.

    7. I’m actually not terribly blackpilled on Sweden, despite all of this. We have a decent nationalist base, a very strong alternative media scene, and if shits truly hits the fan, we’re surrounded by friends. But right now we’re a net exporter of instability to our neighbours and the day may come when we will see hard borders being erected between us and Norway or Finland, for instance. I’m not even sure if elections matter that much anyway. Metapolitics is arguably important in this nascent stage and it is important for people to disassociate Swedish identity from the Swedish state as they are increasingly no longer intertwined. This will require a lot of work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    This is from a recent NBC story:

    Åkesson's tenure since 2005 has seen a litany of representatives ousted for making racist statements.

    Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/far-right-sweden-democrats-hope-topple-century-socialism-n901131

    Thanks for the report, keep us informed on AK’s open threads.

    , @DFH

    However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy.
     
    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.


    But right now we’re a net exporter of instability to our neighbours
     
    How?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
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  2. Owen C. says:

    I’m hoping to be in Macedonia for a week around next March. You’ve just inspired me to write my own travelogue, similar to your Romania one.

    Read More
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  3. Anon[300] • Disclaimer says:

    Fatass

    Sad too considering Sabo makes the world’s best weightlifting and arguably wrestling shoes right in Russia.

    Read More
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  4. Twinkie says:

    I really loved the feel of the Mosin rifle in my hands. No wonder it was so successful.

    Did you shoot it? Unless you have some sort of a rubber pad on the stock and shoot lighter grain bullets, you are going to feel that Mosin-Nagant after you fire some rounds… especially the way you are holding it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @neutral

    Did you shoot it?
     
    Thats not a gun range one sees there.

    I am also wondering who that statue is of, it looks like it could Stalin.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. iffen says:
    @Thulean Friend
    Swedish elections are due in a few weeks. Dunno if there is any interest in them, but here are my unsolicited two kronor.

    1. SD will likely be 2nd biggest party, more or less doubling their vote share since the last election.

    2. The biggest center-right party (M) now realises that they need SD to have power where they call the shots. The other alternative is a 'grand coalition' á la CDU-SPD in Germany. But such a coalition would necessarily be dominated by the Social democrats (S) since they are likely to have a bigger vote share (23% for S to 18% for M).

    3. My guess is that the center-right will try to form an unstable minority government with SD but buckle under relentless pressure from Jewish media like Bonnier and opt for a grand coalition itself.

    4. However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy. He has turned around on gay adoptions. Sputnik actually had a good article
    on this some weeks ago.

    5. The final result will likely be somekind of muddle-through, either in a grand M-S coalition (with some centrist opportunistic parties thrown in) or a center-right coalition with SD support, which is much more palatable to the mainstream given how defanged SD has become and essentially steadily surrendered to the left's paradigm on key issues.

    6. It is likely that the destruction of Sweden will slow, but any truly radical alternatives have been banned. AfS is not very radical, they are essentially SD of 10 years ago and if voted into power, they will follow the same trajectory. This is because AfS at the outset refuses to accept the concept of ethno-nationalism and if you cuck on a key principle from the getgo, you will never win in the long run.

    7. I'm actually not terribly blackpilled on Sweden, despite all of this. We have a decent nationalist base, a very strong alternative media scene, and if shits truly hits the fan, we're surrounded by friends. But right now we're a net exporter of instability to our neighbours and the day may come when we will see hard borders being erected between us and Norway or Finland, for instance. I'm not even sure if elections matter that much anyway. Metapolitics is arguably important in this nascent stage and it is important for people to disassociate Swedish identity from the Swedish state as they are increasingly no longer intertwined. This will require a lot of work.

    This is from a recent NBC story:

    Åkesson’s tenure since 2005 has seen a litany of representatives ousted for making racist statements.

    Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/far-right-sweden-democrats-hope-topple-century-socialism-n901131

    Thanks for the report, keep us informed on AK’s open threads.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. neutral says:
    @Twinkie

    I really loved the feel of the Mosin rifle in my hands. No wonder it was so successful.
     
    Did you shoot it? Unless you have some sort of a rubber pad on the stock and shoot lighter grain bullets, you are going to feel that Mosin-Nagant after you fire some rounds... especially the way you are holding it.

    Did you shoot it?

    Thats not a gun range one sees there.

    I am also wondering who that statue is of, it looks like it could Stalin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    it looks like it could Stalin.

    No, if it were Stalin, AK would be pointing the rifle in that direction.

    , @Twinkie

    Thats not a gun range one sees there.
     
    Yes, obviously. No “eyes and ears” on Mr. Karlin. That’s why I asked whether he had a chance to shoot it. I was guessing not. And I hope he doesn’t shoot long guns the way he’s holding that Mosin-Nagant in the photograph - he should bring the buttpad higher up to his shoulder, not bicep, and tuck it tightly into his cheek and shoulder (and lean forward slightly).

    By the way, the really fun gun is on the table to the right - PPSh-41, esp. with that drum magazine.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. iffen says:
    @neutral

    Did you shoot it?
     
    Thats not a gun range one sees there.

    I am also wondering who that statue is of, it looks like it could Stalin.

    it looks like it could Stalin.

    No, if it were Stalin, AK would be pointing the rifle in that direction.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. DFH says:
    @Thulean Friend
    Swedish elections are due in a few weeks. Dunno if there is any interest in them, but here are my unsolicited two kronor.

    1. SD will likely be 2nd biggest party, more or less doubling their vote share since the last election.

    2. The biggest center-right party (M) now realises that they need SD to have power where they call the shots. The other alternative is a 'grand coalition' á la CDU-SPD in Germany. But such a coalition would necessarily be dominated by the Social democrats (S) since they are likely to have a bigger vote share (23% for S to 18% for M).

    3. My guess is that the center-right will try to form an unstable minority government with SD but buckle under relentless pressure from Jewish media like Bonnier and opt for a grand coalition itself.

    4. However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy. He has turned around on gay adoptions. Sputnik actually had a good article
    on this some weeks ago.

    5. The final result will likely be somekind of muddle-through, either in a grand M-S coalition (with some centrist opportunistic parties thrown in) or a center-right coalition with SD support, which is much more palatable to the mainstream given how defanged SD has become and essentially steadily surrendered to the left's paradigm on key issues.

    6. It is likely that the destruction of Sweden will slow, but any truly radical alternatives have been banned. AfS is not very radical, they are essentially SD of 10 years ago and if voted into power, they will follow the same trajectory. This is because AfS at the outset refuses to accept the concept of ethno-nationalism and if you cuck on a key principle from the getgo, you will never win in the long run.

    7. I'm actually not terribly blackpilled on Sweden, despite all of this. We have a decent nationalist base, a very strong alternative media scene, and if shits truly hits the fan, we're surrounded by friends. But right now we're a net exporter of instability to our neighbours and the day may come when we will see hard borders being erected between us and Norway or Finland, for instance. I'm not even sure if elections matter that much anyway. Metapolitics is arguably important in this nascent stage and it is important for people to disassociate Swedish identity from the Swedish state as they are increasingly no longer intertwined. This will require a lot of work.

    However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy.

    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.

    But right now we’re a net exporter of instability to our neighbours

    How?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena

    How?
     
    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-ugly-immigration-problem/article26338254/

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6697/sweden-collapse

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-24/norway-warns-sweden-will-collapse-pm-will-defy-geneva-convention-protect-border

    https://www.thelocal.se/20150923/finland-attacks-swedens-open-refugee-policy

    Their neighbors did not sign up to live just across a bridge from the Mos Eisley Cantina from Star Wars.
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  9. Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?

    Given that “neo-Nazi” is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn’t exactly easy to answer. Even an alt-lite figure like Gavin McInnes is openly called neo-Nazi, so where to draw the line anymore? Nevertheless, he did purge hardcore ones in the early 2000s first as a youth wing leader and later as the party leader in the mid-2000s.

    Many nationalists were initially on board with him back then since they viewed it as important to get mainstream acceptance. But it was clear already around 2010 (two elections ago) that this train wasn’t stopping. The route to power is to move ever further to the left and he has done that. Top SD deputies have even been caught co-operating with Expo, which is our SPLC. Åkessons response? Silence.

    As always with these cuckservatives, they are often very hardline Zionists and that is the case with SD as well. They reject Swedish ethnonationalism but will fight to the death for Jewish ethnonationalism. That’s why Bonnier has been soft on them lately, because they have the same instincts. Incidentally, the “True Finns Party” over in Finland is the same. So are the Fremskrittspartiet in Norway. All are cuckservatives and all are hardcore Zionists. We don’t call them controlled opposition for nothing.

    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.

    It never works and it is a huge warning sign for any nationalist when your represenatives feel that they have to use ‘based’ minorities. It is telling you that these people have unconsciously submitted to the left’s paradigm that “only white people can be racist”. That implies that they are mentally weak. White people advocating for white interests is much more radical, and far harder socially, but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.

    How? [are you net exporters of instability]

    Via our insane migration policy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Given that “neo-Nazi” is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn’t exactly easy to answer.

    I don't think that we should accept absurd claims by the politically motivated. Trump is supposed to be a Nazi. Pehaps it is best to just let them lose their credibility.

    but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.


    I can't see it as a way forward. White skin is way too paltry as the basis for political reform.

    , @Jaakko Raipala
    The increasingly cuck statements from SD make me worried that they might be preparing to pull the same sellout stunt that the True Finns did. The recipe is

    1. Score a massive election victory by being the one party known for decades for being against immigration
    2. Denounce hatred, xenophobia and all that and claim that your election victory had nothing to do with immigration and was instead based on your healthcare plan or whatever
    3. Come out of cabinet negotiations with a deal that has nothing to do with immigration but where the other parties let you have your way on healthcare or whatever
    4. Do nothing while the government that you're a part of signs up for even more immigration
    5. Watch as your party implodes while you keep your jobs as a cabinet ministers

    This lead to a completely unprecedented party collapse where the leaders of the True Finns party were kicked out but they responded by starting a new political party. The new party polls around 0.5 % but they still sit in the cabinet and for years we've had a party with essentially zero support that never ran in an election represented in cabinet as if it's one of the major political parties.

    Our elites probably think they've done a devious thing destroying the True Finns party by offering to switch their dissident lives for lucrative careers but what they've really hit is the legitimacy of our "democracy". If they pull similar stunts in other countries, we are going to see respect for parliamentary "democracy" hitting the floor.

    , @Dan Bagrov
    I hate to be a jerk, but Swedes are going to go extinct. They are a congenitally cucked race, unfit for the modern environment. This is sadly how evolution works, environment changed and a race that once could give Tsar Peter The Great a run for his money, or turn the tide of the 30 Years war, is just not up to the task of survival. You have to live around these “people” to realize how naive and empathetic they are, the place is run by women, the worst sort of women. Good riddance to them.
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  10. iffen says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?
     
    Given that "neo-Nazi" is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn't exactly easy to answer. Even an alt-lite figure like Gavin McInnes is openly called neo-Nazi, so where to draw the line anymore? Nevertheless, he did purge hardcore ones in the early 2000s first as a youth wing leader and later as the party leader in the mid-2000s.

    Many nationalists were initially on board with him back then since they viewed it as important to get mainstream acceptance. But it was clear already around 2010 (two elections ago) that this train wasn't stopping. The route to power is to move ever further to the left and he has done that. Top SD deputies have even been caught co-operating with Expo, which is our SPLC. Åkessons response? Silence.

    As always with these cuckservatives, they are often very hardline Zionists and that is the case with SD as well. They reject Swedish ethnonationalism but will fight to the death for Jewish ethnonationalism. That's why Bonnier has been soft on them lately, because they have the same instincts. Incidentally, the "True Finns Party" over in Finland is the same. So are the Fremskrittspartiet in Norway. All are cuckservatives and all are hardcore Zionists. We don't call them controlled opposition for nothing.


    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.
     
    It never works and it is a huge warning sign for any nationalist when your represenatives feel that they have to use 'based' minorities. It is telling you that these people have unconsciously submitted to the left's paradigm that "only white people can be racist". That implies that they are mentally weak. White people advocating for white interests is much more radical, and far harder socially, but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.

    How? [are you net exporters of instability]
     
    Via our insane migration policy.

    Given that “neo-Nazi” is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn’t exactly easy to answer.

    I don’t think that we should accept absurd claims by the politically motivated. Trump is supposed to be a Nazi. Pehaps it is best to just let them lose their credibility.

    but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.

    I can’t see it as a way forward. White skin is way too paltry as the basis for political reform.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    White skin is way too paltry
     
    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn't based on 'white skin' then
    , @Talha
    It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.

    Peace.
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  11. In Germany there’ll be state elections in Bavaria and Hesse in October.
    According to polls both SPD and CDU/CSU are likely to lose significantly, with AfD and (disturbingly) the Greens increasing their share, a sign of the increasing polarization due to the migration issue.
    The CSU is probably going to lose its absolute majority in Bavaria. Remains to be seen what kind of coalition this will lead to. If possible, I’d suppose they’ll try one with the FDP liberals and/or the Freie Wähler (CSU-unaffiliated kind of conservatives). But I don’t think it’s impossible they might even go for a CSU-Greens coalition which parts of the media are quite obviously agitating for. That would be bad for Bavaria and for Germany, but on the other hand it would advance the disintegration of the Christian Democrats and end any illusions about the CSU being genuinely opposed to Merkel’s course.
    Seehofer has shown himself to be a fraud once again…he agreed to Germany taking in 60 “refugees”, mostly Somalis and Eritreans, from an NGO ship in Malta, for “humanitarian reasons”. Given the kind of news Somalis have produced just in August so far (a woman raped by two of them in Rosenheim, a doctor stabbed to death in Offenburg by one of the 2015 invaders, with his 10-year old daughter seeing it all), this shows where Seehofer’s priorities lie.

    Read More
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  12. What do you think of MGTOW?

    Read More
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  13. Earlier, you have identified yourself as a “Russian Orthodox Atheist”. What specifically is your relationship to Christianity/Orthodoxy, and what sorts of Russian Orthodox beliefs/practices do you partake in?

    Read More
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  14. DFH says:
    @iffen
    Given that “neo-Nazi” is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn’t exactly easy to answer.

    I don't think that we should accept absurd claims by the politically motivated. Trump is supposed to be a Nazi. Pehaps it is best to just let them lose their credibility.

    but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.


    I can't see it as a way forward. White skin is way too paltry as the basis for political reform.

    White skin is way too paltry

    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn’t based on ‘white skin’ then

    Read More
    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @iffen
    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn’t based on ‘white skin’ then

    Enlighten me because I haven't seen anything else.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  15. Talha says:
    @iffen
    Given that “neo-Nazi” is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn’t exactly easy to answer.

    I don't think that we should accept absurd claims by the politically motivated. Trump is supposed to be a Nazi. Pehaps it is best to just let them lose their credibility.

    but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.


    I can't see it as a way forward. White skin is way too paltry as the basis for political reform.

    It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    It might work in Sweden

    I don't know anything about Sweden, but it seems that it would be easier to go the ethnic Swede route than the white route, and this goes for the other European countries. To me it would be more rational and less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans rather than one for white people.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. @Thulean Friend

    Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?
     
    Given that "neo-Nazi" is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn't exactly easy to answer. Even an alt-lite figure like Gavin McInnes is openly called neo-Nazi, so where to draw the line anymore? Nevertheless, he did purge hardcore ones in the early 2000s first as a youth wing leader and later as the party leader in the mid-2000s.

    Many nationalists were initially on board with him back then since they viewed it as important to get mainstream acceptance. But it was clear already around 2010 (two elections ago) that this train wasn't stopping. The route to power is to move ever further to the left and he has done that. Top SD deputies have even been caught co-operating with Expo, which is our SPLC. Åkessons response? Silence.

    As always with these cuckservatives, they are often very hardline Zionists and that is the case with SD as well. They reject Swedish ethnonationalism but will fight to the death for Jewish ethnonationalism. That's why Bonnier has been soft on them lately, because they have the same instincts. Incidentally, the "True Finns Party" over in Finland is the same. So are the Fremskrittspartiet in Norway. All are cuckservatives and all are hardcore Zionists. We don't call them controlled opposition for nothing.


    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.
     
    It never works and it is a huge warning sign for any nationalist when your represenatives feel that they have to use 'based' minorities. It is telling you that these people have unconsciously submitted to the left's paradigm that "only white people can be racist". That implies that they are mentally weak. White people advocating for white interests is much more radical, and far harder socially, but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.

    How? [are you net exporters of instability]
     
    Via our insane migration policy.

    The increasingly cuck statements from SD make me worried that they might be preparing to pull the same sellout stunt that the True Finns did. The recipe is

    1. Score a massive election victory by being the one party known for decades for being against immigration
    2. Denounce hatred, xenophobia and all that and claim that your election victory had nothing to do with immigration and was instead based on your healthcare plan or whatever
    3. Come out of cabinet negotiations with a deal that has nothing to do with immigration but where the other parties let you have your way on healthcare or whatever
    4. Do nothing while the government that you’re a part of signs up for even more immigration
    5. Watch as your party implodes while you keep your jobs as a cabinet ministers

    This lead to a completely unprecedented party collapse where the leaders of the True Finns party were kicked out but they responded by starting a new political party. The new party polls around 0.5 % but they still sit in the cabinet and for years we’ve had a party with essentially zero support that never ran in an election represented in cabinet as if it’s one of the major political parties.

    Our elites probably think they’ve done a devious thing destroying the True Finns party by offering to switch their dissident lives for lucrative careers but what they’ve really hit is the legitimacy of our “democracy”. If they pull similar stunts in other countries, we are going to see respect for parliamentary “democracy” hitting the floor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    That's a great point, actually. This is why a lot of genuine nationalists refer to these parties (SD, True Finns, FrP etc) as 'kosher nationalists'.

    Just this past day, Paula Bieler, who is a literal Jewess and in charge of SD's immigration policy(!), has feuded with a member of the SD grassroots because the latter insisted that Swedes are white. Controlled opposition/kosher nationalist; pick your preferred term, they both underline the same fact.

    The grassroots base of these parties are much more radical than the party leadership, and the party leadership knows this. Their main task is to passify these people and to give them the illusion of choice, whereas their real goal is to continue the system indefinitely. All real alternatives are purged from the mainstream. SD was actually the party which demanded the loudest that the Nordic Resistance Movement be banned. An indication of their servility to the system they ostensibly oppose.


    Our elites probably think they’ve done a devious thing destroying the True Finns party by offering to switch their dissident lives for lucrative careers but what they’ve really hit is the legitimacy of our “democracy”.
     
    The one silver living about the complete implosion of the True Finns is that a lot of naïve Finnish nationalists will likely become much more radicalised by this experience. The optics cuck narrative of "let's vote for moderates and reform the system from the inside" people were given a dramatically weaker hand as a result of that.

    By contrast, the Swedish elite have managed to keep SD out of the system for much longer. That is obviously not going to be viable going forward, but given how much SD has conceded, it doesn't strike me as very consequential. In this sense, Finland has a better chance to become more radical than we, because your kosher nationalists imploded far faster than ours, and at a much less damaging stage of the demographic cycle, which gives you valuable time. Let's hope you make good use of that time.

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  17. It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.

    History does not repeat, but it does rhyme. And while there is a certain urgency to the task that wasn’t there in the past, our duty is still similar to that of previous European national awakenings amd revivals.

    Europeans do not need to create something new, merely reveal what already exists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Easier said than done though, one has to reject all those concepts which have become dominant even in the mainstream "right" over the last 30-40 years like constitutional patriotism, nationhood defined by "values" (like tolerance for homosex) etc. It will also be necessary to break with the US with its creedal, highly ideological definition of nationhood and increasingly anti-white politics. It won't be easy to convince people of the necessity for such momentous changes.
    , @Talha

    merely reveal what already exists
     
    Some of what exists seems pretty nuts. For instance, Sweden is quite pozzed. I think if they can roll things back to around the 1940s or 1950s - as far as culture is concerned - they’ll have a much easier time. But that’s just me.

    Peace
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  18. @Hyperborean

    It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.
     
    History does not repeat, but it does rhyme. And while there is a certain urgency to the task that wasn't there in the past, our duty is still similar to that of previous European national awakenings amd revivals.

    Europeans do not need to create something new, merely reveal what already exists.

    Easier said than done though, one has to reject all those concepts which have become dominant even in the mainstream “right” over the last 30-40 years like constitutional patriotism, nationhood defined by “values” (like tolerance for homosex) etc. It will also be necessary to break with the US with its creedal, highly ideological definition of nationhood and increasingly anti-white politics. It won’t be easy to convince people of the necessity for such momentous changes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gate666
    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.
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  19. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.
     
    History does not repeat, but it does rhyme. And while there is a certain urgency to the task that wasn't there in the past, our duty is still similar to that of previous European national awakenings amd revivals.

    Europeans do not need to create something new, merely reveal what already exists.

    merely reveal what already exists

    Some of what exists seems pretty nuts. For instance, Sweden is quite pozzed. I think if they can roll things back to around the 1940s or 1950s – as far as culture is concerned – they’ll have a much easier time. But that’s just me.

    Peace

    Read More
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  20. @Jaakko Raipala
    The increasingly cuck statements from SD make me worried that they might be preparing to pull the same sellout stunt that the True Finns did. The recipe is

    1. Score a massive election victory by being the one party known for decades for being against immigration
    2. Denounce hatred, xenophobia and all that and claim that your election victory had nothing to do with immigration and was instead based on your healthcare plan or whatever
    3. Come out of cabinet negotiations with a deal that has nothing to do with immigration but where the other parties let you have your way on healthcare or whatever
    4. Do nothing while the government that you're a part of signs up for even more immigration
    5. Watch as your party implodes while you keep your jobs as a cabinet ministers

    This lead to a completely unprecedented party collapse where the leaders of the True Finns party were kicked out but they responded by starting a new political party. The new party polls around 0.5 % but they still sit in the cabinet and for years we've had a party with essentially zero support that never ran in an election represented in cabinet as if it's one of the major political parties.

    Our elites probably think they've done a devious thing destroying the True Finns party by offering to switch their dissident lives for lucrative careers but what they've really hit is the legitimacy of our "democracy". If they pull similar stunts in other countries, we are going to see respect for parliamentary "democracy" hitting the floor.

    That’s a great point, actually. This is why a lot of genuine nationalists refer to these parties (SD, True Finns, FrP etc) as ‘kosher nationalists’.

    Just this past day, Paula Bieler, who is a literal Jewess and in charge of SD’s immigration policy(!), has feuded with a member of the SD grassroots because the latter insisted that Swedes are white. Controlled opposition/kosher nationalist; pick your preferred term, they both underline the same fact.

    The grassroots base of these parties are much more radical than the party leadership, and the party leadership knows this. Their main task is to passify these people and to give them the illusion of choice, whereas their real goal is to continue the system indefinitely. All real alternatives are purged from the mainstream. SD was actually the party which demanded the loudest that the Nordic Resistance Movement be banned. An indication of their servility to the system they ostensibly oppose.

    Our elites probably think they’ve done a devious thing destroying the True Finns party by offering to switch their dissident lives for lucrative careers but what they’ve really hit is the legitimacy of our “democracy”.

    The one silver living about the complete implosion of the True Finns is that a lot of naïve Finnish nationalists will likely become much more radicalised by this experience. The optics cuck narrative of “let’s vote for moderates and reform the system from the inside” people were given a dramatically weaker hand as a result of that.

    By contrast, the Swedish elite have managed to keep SD out of the system for much longer. That is obviously not going to be viable going forward, but given how much SD has conceded, it doesn’t strike me as very consequential. In this sense, Finland has a better chance to become more radical than we, because your kosher nationalists imploded far faster than ours, and at a much less damaging stage of the demographic cycle, which gives you valuable time. Let’s hope you make good use of that time.

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  21. iffen says:
    @DFH

    White skin is way too paltry
     
    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn't based on 'white skin' then

    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn’t based on ‘white skin’ then

    Enlighten me because I haven’t seen anything else.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    Obviously pale skin is just the most conspicuous feature that Europeans have in common because of their genetic similarity, which also leads to their similarity in many other respects (e.g. behavioural, cultural) and is the basis of white nationalism (same applies to European nations on a more granular level).
    Did I really need to spell that out for you?
    , @Philip Owen
    The Scots and the Welsh operate on a basis of Civic Nationalism. Sub continent shopkeepers and their professionally qualified children are prominent supporters in both nationalist parties.
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  22. iffen says:
    @Talha
    It might work in Sweden though since that place is basically all Whites going back for centuries. There is no analogy like our history in the US.

    Peace.

    It might work in Sweden

    I don’t know anything about Sweden, but it seems that it would be easier to go the ethnic Swede route than the white route, and this goes for the other European countries. To me it would be more rational and less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans rather than one for white people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans
     
    If one defines "ethnic Germans" narrowly, it would actually be way more controversial since it would exclude millions of other Europeans living in Germany, and hardly anybody wants to go back to the intra-European strife of the first half of the 20th century.
    , @Talha
    I get your point and yes, Sweden is fairly isolated from the central part of Europe to have the same worries GR pointed out with Germany. Though there is admixture from Germans, Danes, etc. but I don’t think anyone cares much. And they now have a fairly good relationship with other indigenous people like the Sami.

    Peace.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    The only people who are offended by talk about being pro-white are the leftists who are also completely opposed to ethnic states. Any voter who cares about leftist PC sensibilities is not going to vote for nationalists anyway so it makes no difference.

    There is no benefit from "going the ethnic Swede route" compared to "going the white people route" since you will face exactly the same opponents who will not approve of any biological nationhood regardless of whether it gets expressed through the concept of "biological Swede" or "biological white". People who get sufficiently fed up with mass immigration will overcome social pressure and vote against it and they aren't going to care whether the anti-immigrant party sends back Africans because they're not Swedes or because they're not whites.

    "White nationalism" is an American idea that makes no sense in Europe because we are not a single nation. (It's also not successful in America either but I suggest that it has nothing to do with the fact that they talk about white people and much more to do with the fact that they tend to be neo-Nazis who can't stop dressing up in swastikas.)
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  23. @iffen
    It might work in Sweden

    I don't know anything about Sweden, but it seems that it would be easier to go the ethnic Swede route than the white route, and this goes for the other European countries. To me it would be more rational and less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans rather than one for white people.

    less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans

    If one defines “ethnic Germans” narrowly, it would actually be way more controversial since it would exclude millions of other Europeans living in Germany, and hardly anybody wants to go back to the intra-European strife of the first half of the 20th century.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    All I mean is that looking at it from a practical point of view the idea of a nation state for an ethnic group has a long historical basis. Millions of people were forcefully moved and removed after WWII in an effort to create and maintain such nation states. It will be much more acceptable to many more people and have a better chance of political success if we talk about ethnicities rather than the new category of white people. This is where the opposition is correct about race being a social and political construct. Ethnic groups are organic and many have long and detailed histories.

    And Talha is correct, we can't do that in the US.

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  24. DFH says:
    @iffen
    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn’t based on ‘white skin’ then

    Enlighten me because I haven't seen anything else.

    Obviously pale skin is just the most conspicuous feature that Europeans have in common because of their genetic similarity, which also leads to their similarity in many other respects (e.g. behavioural, cultural) and is the basis of white nationalism (same applies to European nations on a more granular level).
    Did I really need to spell that out for you?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Genetic similarity is not really going to catch on as the basis for a political and ideological movement.
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  25. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans
     
    If one defines "ethnic Germans" narrowly, it would actually be way more controversial since it would exclude millions of other Europeans living in Germany, and hardly anybody wants to go back to the intra-European strife of the first half of the 20th century.

    All I mean is that looking at it from a practical point of view the idea of a nation state for an ethnic group has a long historical basis. Millions of people were forcefully moved and removed after WWII in an effort to create and maintain such nation states. It will be much more acceptable to many more people and have a better chance of political success if we talk about ethnicities rather than the new category of white people. This is where the opposition is correct about race being a social and political construct. Ethnic groups are organic and many have long and detailed histories.

    And Talha is correct, we can’t do that in the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    And Talha is correct, we can’t do that in the US.
     
    Took the boys to see the USAF Thunderbirds perform over Lake Michigan - bread and circus for sure, but man it is riveting seeing those F-16s pull off those maneuvers. Uncle Sam letting the imperial subjects know their tax dollars are well spent.

    Anyway, a few observations:
    1) There were a lot of police on hand but they were huddled in one area and away from the civilians and where I was sitting it was very diverse; Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians - all milling about - everyone being respectful of each other - a polite "excuse me" if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone's way - it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    2) Walking to the lake, we came across plenty of churches (beautiful old-style architecture, stained glass, etc.). I noticed within a block there were fairly large churches of four different sects - there may have been a few more churches close by from other sects as well, but were simply not in my path. I realized that these reflect the era in which they were built - an America that took Christian faith seriously enough that four different congregations would devote time, wealth and energy into building churches based on their variant understandings of the faith. Now we have mega-churches which seem hallmarks of a cultural Christianity; the people don't care for minutiae of doctrine between Presbyterians and Episcopalians, etc. Related to the above point is a very interesting article:
    "Apatheism Is More Damaging to Christianity Than Atheism and Antitheism"
    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/08/21919/

    3) Will not make the mistake of trying to drive to an event in downtown - much easier to just take the train and walk instead of spend an hour looking for affordable parking.

    4) Had no clue how popular tattoos have become even among normal people.

    Peace.

    USA! USA!
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  26. iffen says:
    @DFH
    Obviously pale skin is just the most conspicuous feature that Europeans have in common because of their genetic similarity, which also leads to their similarity in many other respects (e.g. behavioural, cultural) and is the basis of white nationalism (same applies to European nations on a more granular level).
    Did I really need to spell that out for you?

    Genetic similarity is not really going to catch on as the basis for a political and ideological movement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    ??????
    White identity was of primary political importance in the US for almost all of its history and to Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans for hundreds of years (the whole period of significant contact with very racially different people).
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  27. DFH says:
    @iffen
    Genetic similarity is not really going to catch on as the basis for a political and ideological movement.

    ??????
    White identity was of primary political importance in the US for almost all of its history and to Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans for hundreds of years (the whole period of significant contact with very racially different people).

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Let me go another route.

    In the US, in districts gerrymandered for blacks and in cities and counties where blacks are barely over 50% of the voting population, many black politicians will often run on a winning political platform of “vote for me, my ass is the blackest.” We haven’t had white politicians running on the same platform for whites since the end of the civil rights era. The reason that white politicians stopped doing that is because they couldn’t win elections. If soliciting votes on the basis of “my ass is the whitest” worked then they wouldn’t have stopped.
    , @Dmitry
    It's among Americans, in specific parts of their country. White Americans support other White Americans, because feel intuitively they are not foreigners between each other (they are from a similar anglosaxon genetics, history, culture and language).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    By comparison, we can see how the EU project is failing creating solidarity between different nationalities in Europe, despite tens of billions of dollars in investments and all kinds of cultural integration like the Erasmus (which is supposed to create inter-European solidarity).

    Europe is not uniquely fractured in this way. Do Chinese nationalists support Japan, because they are both from East Asia? Do Egyptian nationalists support Israel, because they are both in the Near East? Do Indian nationalists, support Pakistan - because they're both from Asia?

    In Japan, Chinese are considered even more foreign and disliked than Westerners.And we know that Russian man, is not any better treated in Estonia and Latvia.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

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  28. @DFH

    However, given that SD has cucked enormously in the last 5 years alone, the Jewish media may be placated to some extent. For instance, Åkesson, the SD party leader, has made a point about campaigning throughout Sweden with a Based Black Guy.
     
    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.


    But right now we’re a net exporter of instability to our neighbours
     
    How?
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  29. Twinkie says:
    @neutral

    Did you shoot it?
     
    Thats not a gun range one sees there.

    I am also wondering who that statue is of, it looks like it could Stalin.

    Thats not a gun range one sees there.

    Yes, obviously. No “eyes and ears” on Mr. Karlin. That’s why I asked whether he had a chance to shoot it. I was guessing not. And I hope he doesn’t shoot long guns the way he’s holding that Mosin-Nagant in the photograph – he should bring the buttpad higher up to his shoulder, not bicep, and tuck it tightly into his cheek and shoulder (and lean forward slightly).

    By the way, the really fun gun is on the table to the right – PPSh-41, esp. with that drum magazine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    No, of course not. It's an outdoors recreation festival.

    The PPSh is highly inconvenient, having to hold it by the drum. Also pretty unreliable IIRC.
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  30. @Twinkie

    Thats not a gun range one sees there.
     
    Yes, obviously. No “eyes and ears” on Mr. Karlin. That’s why I asked whether he had a chance to shoot it. I was guessing not. And I hope he doesn’t shoot long guns the way he’s holding that Mosin-Nagant in the photograph - he should bring the buttpad higher up to his shoulder, not bicep, and tuck it tightly into his cheek and shoulder (and lean forward slightly).

    By the way, the really fun gun is on the table to the right - PPSh-41, esp. with that drum magazine.

    No, of course not. It’s an outdoors recreation festival.

    The PPSh is highly inconvenient, having to hold it by the drum. Also pretty unreliable IIRC.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The PPSh is highly inconvenient, having to hold it by the drum. Also pretty unreliable IIRC.
     
    SMGs in general, not just the PPSh, are less reliable and more unwieldy with drum magazines. If I were to be armed with one for a serious purpose, I’d insist on box magazines.

    However, drum magazines are fun!
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  31. Talha says:
    @iffen
    It might work in Sweden

    I don't know anything about Sweden, but it seems that it would be easier to go the ethnic Swede route than the white route, and this goes for the other European countries. To me it would be more rational and less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans rather than one for white people.

    I get your point and yes, Sweden is fairly isolated from the central part of Europe to have the same worries GR pointed out with Germany. Though there is admixture from Germans, Danes, etc. but I don’t think anyone cares much. And they now have a fairly good relationship with other indigenous people like the Sami.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  32. @iffen
    Good thing that ethnic/white nationalism isn’t based on ‘white skin’ then

    Enlighten me because I haven't seen anything else.

    The Scots and the Welsh operate on a basis of Civic Nationalism. Sub continent shopkeepers and their professionally qualified children are prominent supporters in both nationalist parties.

    Read More
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  33. iffen says:
    @DFH
    ??????
    White identity was of primary political importance in the US for almost all of its history and to Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans for hundreds of years (the whole period of significant contact with very racially different people).

    Let me go another route.

    In the US, in districts gerrymandered for blacks and in cities and counties where blacks are barely over 50% of the voting population, many black politicians will often run on a winning political platform of “vote for me, my ass is the blackest.” We haven’t had white politicians running on the same platform for whites since the end of the civil rights era. The reason that white politicians stopped doing that is because they couldn’t win elections. If soliciting votes on the basis of “my ass is the whitest” worked then they wouldn’t have stopped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    The same Republican establishment politicians who refuse to talk about white people and their issues were telling everyone that Trump cannot win against Hillary. The Republicans have spent decades pursuing a failed strategy of pandering to minorities and refusing to name themselves as the white party with the hope of getting minority voters. The Republican establishment wanted to nominate someone with a Hispanic last name who supports immigration for President because a strongly white candidate like Trump supposedly couldn't win anymore.

    Why would we trust the Republican establishment's racial electoral strategies when we saw Donald Trump come in, throw away all decades of Republican conventional wisdom about racial electoral strategy, crush the rivals for Republican nomination, beat Hillary Clinton and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems, they'll get an instant spike of popularity with the voters while the Republican donor class will want to crucify him. That's the fundamental problem with "democracy" - it's just a cover for oligarchy and the voters often don't get even offered the candidates that they want to vote for if the billionaire backers don't want them. Trump has his own money so he could defy the donor class and they hate him for that.)
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  34. Twinkie says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    No, of course not. It's an outdoors recreation festival.

    The PPSh is highly inconvenient, having to hold it by the drum. Also pretty unreliable IIRC.

    The PPSh is highly inconvenient, having to hold it by the drum. Also pretty unreliable IIRC.

    SMGs in general, not just the PPSh, are less reliable and more unwieldy with drum magazines. If I were to be armed with one for a serious purpose, I’d insist on box magazines.

    However, drum magazines are fun!

    Read More
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  35. Brabantian says: • Website

    The discussion above of the sell-out by nationalist parties in Finland etc, raises the very good question of what is different in Italy

    Where the new government with ‘based’ Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini, has been quite amazingly authentic in fulfilling its campaign promises both against the migrant waves and against the Brussels economic regime … Italians are quite ethno-revolutionary these days

    Italy has been hit quite a bit harder than most by the migration waves given their location, combined with huge youth unemployment numbers, a formula for populist explosion

    But unlike Spain or Greece, Italy has what is intrinsically a strong economic situation given their exports … and Italians feel in their bones that they are being sabotaged by the German euro currency, so much so that even Italy’s capitalists are backing the reform wave, even being willing to tank the euro and blow up Europe’s banks rather than continue to get ground down under Germany’s euro oppression

    So Italy has a ‘hope’ factor given its world-loved exports, they instinctively feel that ridding themselves of foreign shackles of euro-German domination, and foreigners in general, will make things better … And an Italian history of ‘getting radical’ in new ways, gives Italians some boldness

    Greece has the migrant inundation and youth unemployment, but a psycho-political history that turns them toward what had been ‘the Left’ … and Greeks were so demoralised by the Syriza ‘far left’ fraud, they gave up hope in all politics, to the point they even re-elected the Syriza fakers just because of the ‘socialist’ symbolism

    Spain has had huge youth unemployment too, plus a lot of migrants, but so far hasn’t felt as inundated as Italy … Spain is also distracted by its multiple languages and secessionist regions, and Spain lacks the feeling of an economic revival formula … Spain’s situation may change shortly as the migrant waves previously arriving in Italy now target Spain, tho Spanish political tension may mean the country just fragments into pieces

    Italy, however, is re-forming Europe, Matteo Salvini quite the significant (and very entertaining) figure

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Make Rome Great Again!
    , @LondonBob
    Italy has a tiny Jewish population?

    Salvini does actually seem like the real deal.
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  36. iffen says:
    @Brabantian
    The discussion above of the sell-out by nationalist parties in Finland etc, raises the very good question of what is different in Italy

    Where the new government with 'based' Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini, has been quite amazingly authentic in fulfilling its campaign promises both against the migrant waves and against the Brussels economic regime ... Italians are quite ethno-revolutionary these days

    Italy has been hit quite a bit harder than most by the migration waves given their location, combined with huge youth unemployment numbers, a formula for populist explosion

    But unlike Spain or Greece, Italy has what is intrinsically a strong economic situation given their exports ... and Italians feel in their bones that they are being sabotaged by the German euro currency, so much so that even Italy's capitalists are backing the reform wave, even being willing to tank the euro and blow up Europe's banks rather than continue to get ground down under Germany's euro oppression

    So Italy has a 'hope' factor given its world-loved exports, they instinctively feel that ridding themselves of foreign shackles of euro-German domination, and foreigners in general, will make things better ... And an Italian history of 'getting radical' in new ways, gives Italians some boldness

    Greece has the migrant inundation and youth unemployment, but a psycho-political history that turns them toward what had been 'the Left' ... and Greeks were so demoralised by the Syriza 'far left' fraud, they gave up hope in all politics, to the point they even re-elected the Syriza fakers just because of the 'socialist' symbolism

    Spain has had huge youth unemployment too, plus a lot of migrants, but so far hasn't felt as inundated as Italy ... Spain is also distracted by its multiple languages and secessionist regions, and Spain lacks the feeling of an economic revival formula ... Spain's situation may change shortly as the migrant waves previously arriving in Italy now target Spain, tho Spanish political tension may mean the country just fragments into pieces

    Italy, however, is re-forming Europe, Matteo Salvini quite the significant (and very entertaining) figure

    Make Rome Great Again!

    Read More
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  37. Dmitry says:
    @DFH
    ??????
    White identity was of primary political importance in the US for almost all of its history and to Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans for hundreds of years (the whole period of significant contact with very racially different people).

    It’s among Americans, in specific parts of their country. White Americans support other White Americans, because feel intuitively they are not foreigners between each other (they are from a similar anglosaxon genetics, history, culture and language).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    By comparison, we can see how the EU project is failing creating solidarity between different nationalities in Europe, despite tens of billions of dollars in investments and all kinds of cultural integration like the Erasmus (which is supposed to create inter-European solidarity).

    Europe is not uniquely fractured in this way. Do Chinese nationalists support Japan, because they are both from East Asia? Do Egyptian nationalists support Israel, because they are both in the Near East? Do Indian nationalists, support Pakistan – because they’re both from Asia?

    In Japan, Chinese are considered even more foreign and disliked than Westerners.And we know that Russian man, is not any better treated in Estonia and Latvia.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Cueing St. AaronB.

    , @Lars Porsena
    I honestly wonder how many Anglos are even in this country. Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland. If you throw a ball over your shoulder it will probably hit an Italian. We have been importing immigrants from all over Europe for a good century or two. And massive amounts of the original european stock even before that was Scottish, Irish, and German (as well as some Dutch and some Scandinavian). The upper midwest is heavily central european and scandinavian. And a fair amount of French in some of the territories it would later absorb. Louisiana is still heavily of French heritage among it's white population and they were all the way up the Mississippi to Chicago. There are probably more Irish in the US than anglo-saxons, certainly way more Irish in the US than their are in the whole of Ireland.

    Why does everyone think it's all English? You guys are falling for anglo propaganda. US whites all speak english but that doesn't mean they are WASPs. According to the wikipedia article on English Americans, in the first US census in 1790 English were 47.5% of the US population and already only 60.9% of the US white population. In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious. But assuming that's true the US is 8% English and 92% Not English. Even assuming 40 million they would not be a majority of whites or even a quarter of all whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American

    There is also an article on white american

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

    Says the total white population is 250 million and the largest white ethnicities in the US are:

    German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.8%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Scotch-Irish Americans (1.7%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), Norwegian Americans (1.5%), and Swedish Americans (1.4%).[15][16][17] However, the English Americans and British Americans demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply "Americans" (6.9%)
     
    So even if you added all of the 6.9% "American" to the 9.2% English you only get 16.1% which is still less than the number of ethnic Germans.
    , @DFH

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.
     
    Absolutely bizzarre claims. Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian's ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture. For instance the Chinese exclusion movement was led by Denis Kearney, a Catholic Irish immigrant. Relations with other races have also always been in terms of white/European against non-white. I don't know why you specify 'pale'; Italians also integrated into white America.


    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.
     
    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).
     
    Also not true. There was plenty of racial solidarity among Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans during the 19th century and early 20th century that was not based on religion.
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  38. iffen says:
    @Dmitry
    It's among Americans, in specific parts of their country. White Americans support other White Americans, because feel intuitively they are not foreigners between each other (they are from a similar anglosaxon genetics, history, culture and language).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    By comparison, we can see how the EU project is failing creating solidarity between different nationalities in Europe, despite tens of billions of dollars in investments and all kinds of cultural integration like the Erasmus (which is supposed to create inter-European solidarity).

    Europe is not uniquely fractured in this way. Do Chinese nationalists support Japan, because they are both from East Asia? Do Egyptian nationalists support Israel, because they are both in the Near East? Do Indian nationalists, support Pakistan - because they're both from Asia?

    In Japan, Chinese are considered even more foreign and disliked than Westerners.And we know that Russian man, is not any better treated in Estonia and Latvia.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Cueing St. AaronB.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I was jerked awake from a deep sleep. This could mean only one thing...someone must have mentioned religion on Karlin's blog!

    Must....post...lengthy....reply...
    , @AaronB
    Besides, when Dmitry is beginning to parrot my ideas perhaps my work here is done.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.
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  39. @iffen
    It might work in Sweden

    I don't know anything about Sweden, but it seems that it would be easier to go the ethnic Swede route than the white route, and this goes for the other European countries. To me it would be more rational and less controversial, for example, to push for a nation state for ethnic Germans rather than one for white people.

    The only people who are offended by talk about being pro-white are the leftists who are also completely opposed to ethnic states. Any voter who cares about leftist PC sensibilities is not going to vote for nationalists anyway so it makes no difference.

    There is no benefit from “going the ethnic Swede route” compared to “going the white people route” since you will face exactly the same opponents who will not approve of any biological nationhood regardless of whether it gets expressed through the concept of “biological Swede” or “biological white”. People who get sufficiently fed up with mass immigration will overcome social pressure and vote against it and they aren’t going to care whether the anti-immigrant party sends back Africans because they’re not Swedes or because they’re not whites.

    “White nationalism” is an American idea that makes no sense in Europe because we are not a single nation. (It’s also not successful in America either but I suggest that it has nothing to do with the fact that they talk about white people and much more to do with the fact that they tend to be neo-Nazis who can’t stop dressing up in swastikas.)

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  40. AaronB says:
    @iffen
    you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Cueing St. AaronB.

    I was jerked awake from a deep sleep. This could mean only one thing…someone must have mentioned religion on Karlin’s blog!

    Must….post…lengthy….reply…

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
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  41. AaronB says:
    @iffen
    you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Cueing St. AaronB.

    Besides, when Dmitry is beginning to parrot my ideas perhaps my work here is done.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    One down, eleven to go.
    , @reiner Tor
    Hey AaronB, I have a good, quick and very reliable psychological test for you!

    Q1: Are you smart? Y/N
    Q2: Are you good-looking? Y/N

    Evaluation:
    Each “yes” answer is worth one point.

    2 points: Congratulations! You are smart and good-looking.
    1 point: You are either smart or good-looking, but not both.
    0 points: You are an ugly cretin.
    , @Dmitry
    Nobody is "parroting your ideas".

    It's historical reality, that religious blocs have also existed. Usually as way of making empires, easier to manage.

    20th century variant of this game, was in the Soviet Union, where Marxism–Leninism operated with some religious dimensions.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity - it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one - with things like Erasmus programmes - you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.

    By comparison, in America it is possible to have a single European nationalism, because in America most white people are assimilated to a single dominant anglosaxon culture.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or "melting pots"), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them. Although there are nationalities which benefit from this, when they are subsumed by a higher and more advanced culture, as happens in Soviet Union.

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  42. @iffen
    Let me go another route.

    In the US, in districts gerrymandered for blacks and in cities and counties where blacks are barely over 50% of the voting population, many black politicians will often run on a winning political platform of “vote for me, my ass is the blackest.” We haven’t had white politicians running on the same platform for whites since the end of the civil rights era. The reason that white politicians stopped doing that is because they couldn’t win elections. If soliciting votes on the basis of “my ass is the whitest” worked then they wouldn’t have stopped.

    The same Republican establishment politicians who refuse to talk about white people and their issues were telling everyone that Trump cannot win against Hillary. The Republicans have spent decades pursuing a failed strategy of pandering to minorities and refusing to name themselves as the white party with the hope of getting minority voters. The Republican establishment wanted to nominate someone with a Hispanic last name who supports immigration for President because a strongly white candidate like Trump supposedly couldn’t win anymore.

    Why would we trust the Republican establishment’s racial electoral strategies when we saw Donald Trump come in, throw away all decades of Republican conventional wisdom about racial electoral strategy, crush the rivals for Republican nomination, beat Hillary Clinton and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems, they’ll get an instant spike of popularity with the voters while the Republican donor class will want to crucify him. That’s the fundamental problem with “democracy” – it’s just a cover for oligarchy and the voters often don’t get even offered the candidates that they want to vote for if the billionaire backers don’t want them. Trump has his own money so he could defy the donor class and they hate him for that.)

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    • Replies: @iffen
    and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems

    Trump would lose votes if he started campaigning as a white nationalist. He needs to continue fighting the MSM and work to increase his black and Hispanic working class vote.

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  43. @Thulean Friend

    Are all neo-Nazis being purged or just the stupid ones?
     
    Given that "neo-Nazi" is a vague definition that is including ever-more people in contemporary Western discourse, this isn't exactly easy to answer. Even an alt-lite figure like Gavin McInnes is openly called neo-Nazi, so where to draw the line anymore? Nevertheless, he did purge hardcore ones in the early 2000s first as a youth wing leader and later as the party leader in the mid-2000s.

    Many nationalists were initially on board with him back then since they viewed it as important to get mainstream acceptance. But it was clear already around 2010 (two elections ago) that this train wasn't stopping. The route to power is to move ever further to the left and he has done that. Top SD deputies have even been caught co-operating with Expo, which is our SPLC. Åkessons response? Silence.

    As always with these cuckservatives, they are often very hardline Zionists and that is the case with SD as well. They reject Swedish ethnonationalism but will fight to the death for Jewish ethnonationalism. That's why Bonnier has been soft on them lately, because they have the same instincts. Incidentally, the "True Finns Party" over in Finland is the same. So are the Fremskrittspartiet in Norway. All are cuckservatives and all are hardcore Zionists. We don't call them controlled opposition for nothing.


    Does this ever work? BNP tried the based Sikh and Jewess card to absolutely no effect.
     
    It never works and it is a huge warning sign for any nationalist when your represenatives feel that they have to use 'based' minorities. It is telling you that these people have unconsciously submitted to the left's paradigm that "only white people can be racist". That implies that they are mentally weak. White people advocating for white interests is much more radical, and far harder socially, but ultimately that is the only way forward for us.

    How? [are you net exporters of instability]
     
    Via our insane migration policy.

    I hate to be a jerk, but Swedes are going to go extinct. They are a congenitally cucked race, unfit for the modern environment. This is sadly how evolution works, environment changed and a race that once could give Tsar Peter The Great a run for his money, or turn the tide of the 30 Years war, is just not up to the task of survival. You have to live around these “people” to realize how naive and empathetic they are, the place is run by women, the worst sort of women. Good riddance to them.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Peter dramatically changed the makeup of the Swedes, with some pluses and minuses.

    Shifting gears, I loved seeing brother Putin in Österreich, attending the wedding of that country's foreign minister and speaking German. He brought some of the Kuban Cossack choir with him.
    , @neutral

    This is sadly how evolution works
     
    True, but one has to be more precise on what the exact event is that is causing this extinction, you are blaming it on feminism when it is more correct to say it is the jews. Jews are to Swedes as smallpox was to the natives of the new world.
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  44. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dan Bagrov
    I hate to be a jerk, but Swedes are going to go extinct. They are a congenitally cucked race, unfit for the modern environment. This is sadly how evolution works, environment changed and a race that once could give Tsar Peter The Great a run for his money, or turn the tide of the 30 Years war, is just not up to the task of survival. You have to live around these “people” to realize how naive and empathetic they are, the place is run by women, the worst sort of women. Good riddance to them.

    Peter dramatically changed the makeup of the Swedes, with some pluses and minuses.

    Shifting gears, I loved seeing brother Putin in Österreich, attending the wedding of that country’s foreign minister and speaking German. He brought some of the Kuban Cossack choir with him.

    Read More
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  45. @Dmitry
    It's among Americans, in specific parts of their country. White Americans support other White Americans, because feel intuitively they are not foreigners between each other (they are from a similar anglosaxon genetics, history, culture and language).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    By comparison, we can see how the EU project is failing creating solidarity between different nationalities in Europe, despite tens of billions of dollars in investments and all kinds of cultural integration like the Erasmus (which is supposed to create inter-European solidarity).

    Europe is not uniquely fractured in this way. Do Chinese nationalists support Japan, because they are both from East Asia? Do Egyptian nationalists support Israel, because they are both in the Near East? Do Indian nationalists, support Pakistan - because they're both from Asia?

    In Japan, Chinese are considered even more foreign and disliked than Westerners.And we know that Russian man, is not any better treated in Estonia and Latvia.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    I honestly wonder how many Anglos are even in this country. Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland. If you throw a ball over your shoulder it will probably hit an Italian. We have been importing immigrants from all over Europe for a good century or two. And massive amounts of the original european stock even before that was Scottish, Irish, and German (as well as some Dutch and some Scandinavian). The upper midwest is heavily central european and scandinavian. And a fair amount of French in some of the territories it would later absorb. Louisiana is still heavily of French heritage among it’s white population and they were all the way up the Mississippi to Chicago. There are probably more Irish in the US than anglo-saxons, certainly way more Irish in the US than their are in the whole of Ireland.

    Why does everyone think it’s all English? You guys are falling for anglo propaganda. US whites all speak english but that doesn’t mean they are WASPs. According to the wikipedia article on English Americans, in the first US census in 1790 English were 47.5% of the US population and already only 60.9% of the US white population. In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious. But assuming that’s true the US is 8% English and 92% Not English. Even assuming 40 million they would not be a majority of whites or even a quarter of all whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American

    There is also an article on white american

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

    Says the total white population is 250 million and the largest white ethnicities in the US are:

    German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.8%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Scotch-Irish Americans (1.7%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), Norwegian Americans (1.5%), and Swedish Americans (1.4%).[15][16][17] However, the English Americans and British Americans demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply “Americans” (6.9%)

    So even if you added all of the 6.9% “American” to the 9.2% English you only get 16.1% which is still less than the number of ethnic Germans.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    The majority of white Americans can trace their first ancestor in America to a British colonist. Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can, as the core culture of America anglo ancestry is the base and therefore less noted these days. Of course WASPs have been heavily demonised since the sixties, but they are right to be envious.
    , @szopen

    Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland
     
    That was true hundred years ago, but surely is not today.

    Warsaw has one million inhabitants. Do you say Poles are more than 1/3 of Chicago's population, and more than half of white Chicago's population? I find it unlikely.

    The census I have found claims there are merely 134.000 people of POlish descent (less than hundred years ago which would be quite small city in Poland.
    , @Matra
    In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious.

    This is based on subjective self-reporting. The English ancestry is much further back in a typical American's history so it isn't as well remembered as your Irish or German great-grandfather. Bias against 'bland', 'vanilla', 'oppressive' Wasps in the Ellis Islander-dominated media also leads to more vibrant non-Anglo ancestry being self-reported.

    And, no, the Irish did not outnumber the English at any time in the 1800s. If you count the Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots), who are much closer to the English than they are to the native Irish, as exclusively Irish you can maybe get the numbers close. However, given that the Scotch-Irish mostly intermarried with English (and Scottish Lowland) Protestant Americans right up until at least the early 20th century their descendants would be much more Anglo/ Waspy than Irish.

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  46. DFH says:
    @Dmitry
    It's among Americans, in specific parts of their country. White Americans support other White Americans, because feel intuitively they are not foreigners between each other (they are from a similar anglosaxon genetics, history, culture and language).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    By comparison, we can see how the EU project is failing creating solidarity between different nationalities in Europe, despite tens of billions of dollars in investments and all kinds of cultural integration like the Erasmus (which is supposed to create inter-European solidarity).

    Europe is not uniquely fractured in this way. Do Chinese nationalists support Japan, because they are both from East Asia? Do Egyptian nationalists support Israel, because they are both in the Near East? Do Indian nationalists, support Pakistan - because they're both from Asia?

    In Japan, Chinese are considered even more foreign and disliked than Westerners.And we know that Russian man, is not any better treated in Estonia and Latvia.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.

    Absolutely bizzarre claims. Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian’s ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture. For instance the Chinese exclusion movement was led by Denis Kearney, a Catholic Irish immigrant. Relations with other races have also always been in terms of white/European against non-white. I don’t know why you specify ‘pale’; Italians also integrated into white America.

    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.

    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).

    Also not true. There was plenty of racial solidarity among Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans during the 19th century and early 20th century that was not based on religion.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    "I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I and my brother and my cousin against the world."
    , @Dmitry

    Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian’s ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture.
     
    Genetically they are not all anglosaxon, but culturally they assimilated to a single anglosaxon nationality (with the same language, myths, humour etc - all the important things, which allow you to feel like you are with "your people").

    White races of non-anglo ancestry in America were assimilated - you can see the behaviour of Americans of German descent fighting against Germany in Second World War. (Japanese Americans by comparison were rehoused in camps, and soldiers from this nationality were not in the Pacific conflict).

    This is why white Americans don't feel like foreigners to each other - they're assimilated to the same anglosaxon nation. So concept of single "white nationalism" is very sensible in America and they feel like a single family and country.

    Nationalities which try to keep an independent culture are quite troublesome in America. Jews (who keep their own independent nationality) are considered the most troublesome. But even Latinos (many of which are genetically European people) are politically terrifying for many Americans.


    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

     

    This socializing dimension is not true in terms of ancestry - but more in culture and language.

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.

    Brazilians of Japanese, Chinese ,German and Portuguese, will all be friends in the same group.

    Nationalities from former Soviet countries are another group. Russians, Georgians, even Kazakhs ... you realize abroad everyone is far more similar to each other, than to people like English or German - even though visually English and German are much more similar to Russian, than Georgian is.

    On social level also - certain European nationalities are often more difficult to socialize with, and closeness of the culture is not always helpful .

    I speak English even better than I write it - but Americans are probably the nationalities I've found most difficult to socialize with so far, although they slightly easier than Chinese people.

    My own experience might not be representative. But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with? unless they have been in college or school with Americans. For some reason, other nationalities like Irish and even Japanese, are seeming much easier to talk to (in real life - on the internet Americans are easy to discuss with).

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  47. iffen says:
    @AaronB
    Besides, when Dmitry is beginning to parrot my ideas perhaps my work here is done.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    One down, eleven to go.

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  48. neutral says:
    @Dan Bagrov
    I hate to be a jerk, but Swedes are going to go extinct. They are a congenitally cucked race, unfit for the modern environment. This is sadly how evolution works, environment changed and a race that once could give Tsar Peter The Great a run for his money, or turn the tide of the 30 Years war, is just not up to the task of survival. You have to live around these “people” to realize how naive and empathetic they are, the place is run by women, the worst sort of women. Good riddance to them.

    This is sadly how evolution works

    True, but one has to be more precise on what the exact event is that is causing this extinction, you are blaming it on feminism when it is more correct to say it is the jews. Jews are to Swedes as smallpox was to the natives of the new world.

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  49. iffen says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    The same Republican establishment politicians who refuse to talk about white people and their issues were telling everyone that Trump cannot win against Hillary. The Republicans have spent decades pursuing a failed strategy of pandering to minorities and refusing to name themselves as the white party with the hope of getting minority voters. The Republican establishment wanted to nominate someone with a Hispanic last name who supports immigration for President because a strongly white candidate like Trump supposedly couldn't win anymore.

    Why would we trust the Republican establishment's racial electoral strategies when we saw Donald Trump come in, throw away all decades of Republican conventional wisdom about racial electoral strategy, crush the rivals for Republican nomination, beat Hillary Clinton and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems, they'll get an instant spike of popularity with the voters while the Republican donor class will want to crucify him. That's the fundamental problem with "democracy" - it's just a cover for oligarchy and the voters often don't get even offered the candidates that they want to vote for if the billionaire backers don't want them. Trump has his own money so he could defy the donor class and they hate him for that.)

    and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems

    Trump would lose votes if he started campaigning as a white nationalist. He needs to continue fighting the MSM and work to increase his black and Hispanic working class vote.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    You said the right should avoid mentioning "white people" because somehow it's not "acceptable". I said screw that, we should talk about white people but not get into "white nationalism" (because, as I said, it seems to be just another useless Nazi costume party movement). It's just a strawman for you to bring up white nationalism to argue against it.

    In fact, we should all talk about white people a lot more so that "white nationalists" don't manage to monopolize the field of anti-anti-white opinion and drag the subject into their ghetto. The left talks about white people all the time to pile hatred and propaganda and there's definitely political field to be claimed by being pro-white in contrast. The minorities that might vote right-wing will not be driven away, in fact kicking out self-loathing white cucks and filling the right with unapologetic white men like Trump will gain respect.
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  50. @AaronB
    Besides, when Dmitry is beginning to parrot my ideas perhaps my work here is done.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    Hey AaronB, I have a good, quick and very reliable psychological test for you!

    Q1: Are you smart? Y/N
    Q2: Are you good-looking? Y/N

    Evaluation:
    Each “yes” answer is worth one point.

    2 points: Congratulations! You are smart and good-looking.
    1 point: You are either smart or good-looking, but not both.
    0 points: You are an ugly cretin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    You gave the answer key with the test.

    That makes you a participant in the most heinous, destructive and nefarious Jew-plot yet: grade inflation.
    , @AaronB
    I like the cut of your jib, RT.
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  51. g2k says:

    Interesting times in the UK,

    There’s been a real anti-brexit corporate/media push. They’re after a second referendum where, they figure, they’ll get the “correct” result.

    More antisemitism muck seems to be being flung at corbyn than normal.

    Boris johnson has been attacked by sjws for being rude about the Burqa and censured by his own party leadership. I couldn’t care less about him, and there’s a lot of cynicism on all sides of this, but it’s inducative of just how faw we’ve come. When Sarkozy was in the process of banning the thing in France, tory establishment figures would be wheeled out to say rude things about it, before explaining that, no matter how bad it was, a ban would be ‘un-British’. Now even that is unacceptable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    Boris johnson has been attacked by sjws for being rude about the Burqa and censured by his own party leadership
     
    No-one apart from pakis (I suppose) and their most slavish supporters cares at all about this, but Labour have been waiting for an opportunity to try and equate 'tory islamophobia' with 'labour anti-semitism'. The cuckoldry of the Conservatives has no limits. Top tories were calling him a fascist and demanding he apologise. My favourite was from theoretically conservative Matthew d'Ancona (who knew you could be this stupid and still become a fellow of All Souls'?);


    I think – no, I insist – that this is nothing short of deplorable, and that this confrontation poses greater long-term dangers than Powell’s speech in 1968. It is a founding principle of any pluralist society that in our permanent negotiation with one another we strive to be decent and dignified.

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/12/boris-johnson-moment-more-decisive-rivers-of-blood
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  52. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    Hey AaronB, I have a good, quick and very reliable psychological test for you!

    Q1: Are you smart? Y/N
    Q2: Are you good-looking? Y/N

    Evaluation:
    Each “yes” answer is worth one point.

    2 points: Congratulations! You are smart and good-looking.
    1 point: You are either smart or good-looking, but not both.
    0 points: You are an ugly cretin.

    You gave the answer key with the test.

    That makes you a participant in the most heinous, destructive and nefarious Jew-plot yet: grade inflation.

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
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  53. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor
    Hey AaronB, I have a good, quick and very reliable psychological test for you!

    Q1: Are you smart? Y/N
    Q2: Are you good-looking? Y/N

    Evaluation:
    Each “yes” answer is worth one point.

    2 points: Congratulations! You are smart and good-looking.
    1 point: You are either smart or good-looking, but not both.
    0 points: You are an ugly cretin.

    I like the cut of your jib, RT.

    Read More
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  54. @DFH

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.
     
    Absolutely bizzarre claims. Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian's ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture. For instance the Chinese exclusion movement was led by Denis Kearney, a Catholic Irish immigrant. Relations with other races have also always been in terms of white/European against non-white. I don't know why you specify 'pale'; Italians also integrated into white America.


    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.
     
    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).
     
    Also not true. There was plenty of racial solidarity among Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans during the 19th century and early 20th century that was not based on religion.

    “I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I and my brother and my cousin against the world.”

    Read More
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  55. Talha says:
    @iffen
    All I mean is that looking at it from a practical point of view the idea of a nation state for an ethnic group has a long historical basis. Millions of people were forcefully moved and removed after WWII in an effort to create and maintain such nation states. It will be much more acceptable to many more people and have a better chance of political success if we talk about ethnicities rather than the new category of white people. This is where the opposition is correct about race being a social and political construct. Ethnic groups are organic and many have long and detailed histories.

    And Talha is correct, we can't do that in the US.

    And Talha is correct, we can’t do that in the US.

    Took the boys to see the USAF Thunderbirds perform over Lake Michigan – bread and circus for sure, but man it is riveting seeing those F-16s pull off those maneuvers. Uncle Sam letting the imperial subjects know their tax dollars are well spent.

    Anyway, a few observations:
    1) There were a lot of police on hand but they were huddled in one area and away from the civilians and where I was sitting it was very diverse; Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians – all milling about – everyone being respectful of each other – a polite “excuse me” if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone’s way – it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    2) Walking to the lake, we came across plenty of churches (beautiful old-style architecture, stained glass, etc.). I noticed within a block there were fairly large churches of four different sects – there may have been a few more churches close by from other sects as well, but were simply not in my path. I realized that these reflect the era in which they were built – an America that took Christian faith seriously enough that four different congregations would devote time, wealth and energy into building churches based on their variant understandings of the faith. Now we have mega-churches which seem hallmarks of a cultural Christianity; the people don’t care for minutiae of doctrine between Presbyterians and Episcopalians, etc. Related to the above point is a very interesting article:
    “Apatheism Is More Damaging to Christianity Than Atheism and Antitheism”

    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/08/21919/

    3) Will not make the mistake of trying to drive to an event in downtown – much easier to just take the train and walk instead of spend an hour looking for affordable parking.

    4) Had no clue how popular tattoos have become even among normal people.

    Peace.

    USA! USA!

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    • Replies: @megabar
    > Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians – all milling about – everyone being respectful of each other – a polite “excuse me” if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone’s way – it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    If this is supposed to mean that a multiracial society can work, then I think you are making several mistakes.

    First of all, a military exhibition is likely to select for a certain type of person. Not necessarily smart or wealthy, mind you -- indeed, the times I've been to these, there has been a degree of "white trash." But you're not generally going to see gangsters, for example.

    Secondly, no reasonable person disputes that all races have a large number of good and decent people. The leftist motif of "most immigrants are good!" is _generally_ true.

    But societies do not prosper merely because 51% of the people are decent. For a society to prosper, you need (among other things): (a) _almost everyone_ to be peaceful and civil; (b) enough average productivity from your people; and (c) enough equality in talent to avoid obvious and too-large differences in outcomes.

    If you don't have (a), society will be high-threat and low-trust. If 95% of the people aren't violent, then 5% are -- this makes for a very violent society. If you don't have (b), your society will lack prosperity, and will lose ground to societies that are more productive, eventually becoming irrelevant and subject to the power of others. Every non-productive citizen brings down the average, even if they're nice. If you don't have (c), you will have unrest and tension between the haves and have-nots, even if the have-nots are hard-working and decent, and even if the haves are not oppressing anyone.
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  56. LondonBob says:
    @Brabantian
    The discussion above of the sell-out by nationalist parties in Finland etc, raises the very good question of what is different in Italy

    Where the new government with 'based' Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini, has been quite amazingly authentic in fulfilling its campaign promises both against the migrant waves and against the Brussels economic regime ... Italians are quite ethno-revolutionary these days

    Italy has been hit quite a bit harder than most by the migration waves given their location, combined with huge youth unemployment numbers, a formula for populist explosion

    But unlike Spain or Greece, Italy has what is intrinsically a strong economic situation given their exports ... and Italians feel in their bones that they are being sabotaged by the German euro currency, so much so that even Italy's capitalists are backing the reform wave, even being willing to tank the euro and blow up Europe's banks rather than continue to get ground down under Germany's euro oppression

    So Italy has a 'hope' factor given its world-loved exports, they instinctively feel that ridding themselves of foreign shackles of euro-German domination, and foreigners in general, will make things better ... And an Italian history of 'getting radical' in new ways, gives Italians some boldness

    Greece has the migrant inundation and youth unemployment, but a psycho-political history that turns them toward what had been 'the Left' ... and Greeks were so demoralised by the Syriza 'far left' fraud, they gave up hope in all politics, to the point they even re-elected the Syriza fakers just because of the 'socialist' symbolism

    Spain has had huge youth unemployment too, plus a lot of migrants, but so far hasn't felt as inundated as Italy ... Spain is also distracted by its multiple languages and secessionist regions, and Spain lacks the feeling of an economic revival formula ... Spain's situation may change shortly as the migrant waves previously arriving in Italy now target Spain, tho Spanish political tension may mean the country just fragments into pieces

    Italy, however, is re-forming Europe, Matteo Salvini quite the significant (and very entertaining) figure

    Italy has a tiny Jewish population?

    Salvini does actually seem like the real deal.

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    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    LondonBob:

    A few thoughts regarding Italian Jews:

    1. An Orthodox Jewish friend of mine once told me that Italian Jews never amounted to anything because they were never persecuted.

    2. Some Italian Jewish academics prevented the previous pope from addressing their institution because of their petulant ill feelings toward the papacy (ingratitude uber alles!). BTW, it would be fun if these academics were from the University of Rome - a long-standing academic joke!
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  57. LondonBob says:
    @Lars Porsena
    I honestly wonder how many Anglos are even in this country. Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland. If you throw a ball over your shoulder it will probably hit an Italian. We have been importing immigrants from all over Europe for a good century or two. And massive amounts of the original european stock even before that was Scottish, Irish, and German (as well as some Dutch and some Scandinavian). The upper midwest is heavily central european and scandinavian. And a fair amount of French in some of the territories it would later absorb. Louisiana is still heavily of French heritage among it's white population and they were all the way up the Mississippi to Chicago. There are probably more Irish in the US than anglo-saxons, certainly way more Irish in the US than their are in the whole of Ireland.

    Why does everyone think it's all English? You guys are falling for anglo propaganda. US whites all speak english but that doesn't mean they are WASPs. According to the wikipedia article on English Americans, in the first US census in 1790 English were 47.5% of the US population and already only 60.9% of the US white population. In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious. But assuming that's true the US is 8% English and 92% Not English. Even assuming 40 million they would not be a majority of whites or even a quarter of all whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American

    There is also an article on white american

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

    Says the total white population is 250 million and the largest white ethnicities in the US are:

    German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.8%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Scotch-Irish Americans (1.7%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), Norwegian Americans (1.5%), and Swedish Americans (1.4%).[15][16][17] However, the English Americans and British Americans demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply "Americans" (6.9%)
     
    So even if you added all of the 6.9% "American" to the 9.2% English you only get 16.1% which is still less than the number of ethnic Germans.

    The majority of white Americans can trace their first ancestor in America to a British colonist. Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can, as the core culture of America anglo ancestry is the base and therefore less noted these days. Of course WASPs have been heavily demonised since the sixties, but they are right to be envious.

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    It is a plausible assertion but is there any evidence?

    In a most literal sense I think you are quite wrong because I doubt a majority of Americans can even trace their ancestry let alone to the first ancestor in America.

    But even back in the 19th century the Irish were said to be outnumbering the anglos, did not necessarily intermarry with anglos (plenty of Irish for that) and have kept some semblance of a separate cultural identity.

    And again, depending on where in the country you are because it is not completely evenly spread but regionally different, your first euro ancestor on the continent was perhaps more likely to be German (Upper Midwest) or French (Louisiana Territory from the Gulf up the Mississippi) or Dutch (New York - Dutch were in the US before the English were).


    Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can
     
    Well that proves everything.

    The fact that you are "London Bob" means (1) You are biased, and (2) how the hell would you know Limey?

    Also you are cheating because "british" isn't a real ethnicity it's an anachronistic imperial construct.

    , @Dmitry
    I'm surprised, if anything, there is no single alliance between all the anglosaxon heritage countries: USA, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand.

    Or the governments do not promote this concept of English World.
    , @RadicalCenter
    No way that’s true.

    All four of my grandparents were born in the USA, and some of my great-grandparents, and not one of them traced their ancestry to an English/Scottish/Welsh settler in the USA. They came directly from Italy, Germany, and Slovakia to the We know when they came, and they all came through Ellis Island. I know hundreds of people like this, but we can find large self-identification surveys too.

    (My own genetic test reported five percent English, but that predates either side of the family coming to the USA.)

    I think you’re underestimating how many of us white Americans trace our ancestry only to non-Brit immigrants to the USA, and from there of course to European peoples in Europe — Scandinavia, Western Europe, Southern Europe and Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe / Slavic — and not at all to any UK settler of America.

    By the way, without non-British whites in the USA, the British-settler-descended whites already would have been reduced to a minority countrywide long ago.

    When it comes to politics, economic competition, social influence, and simple physical defense, whites of every background in the USA must band together, whether the non-British European majority or the British-settler-descended minority.

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  58. @LondonBob
    The majority of white Americans can trace their first ancestor in America to a British colonist. Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can, as the core culture of America anglo ancestry is the base and therefore less noted these days. Of course WASPs have been heavily demonised since the sixties, but they are right to be envious.

    It is a plausible assertion but is there any evidence?

    In a most literal sense I think you are quite wrong because I doubt a majority of Americans can even trace their ancestry let alone to the first ancestor in America.

    But even back in the 19th century the Irish were said to be outnumbering the anglos, did not necessarily intermarry with anglos (plenty of Irish for that) and have kept some semblance of a separate cultural identity.

    And again, depending on where in the country you are because it is not completely evenly spread but regionally different, your first euro ancestor on the continent was perhaps more likely to be German (Upper Midwest) or French (Louisiana Territory from the Gulf up the Mississippi) or Dutch (New York – Dutch were in the US before the English were).

    Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can

    Well that proves everything.

    The fact that you are “London Bob” means (1) You are biased, and (2) how the hell would you know Limey?

    Also you are cheating because “british” isn’t a real ethnicity it’s an anachronistic imperial construct.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    If you think there were more Irish than Anglo in the 19th century then I cannot help you.

    SJP thought she was solely Jewish and German, but she actually had Puritan ancestors. Just those thirty odd thousand Puritan settlers had over 16 million ancestors by 1988.
    , @Dmitry
    Perhaps I was mistaken about how much anglosaxon genetics are in America. But it was not the main point.

    Anglosaxon culture, language, mythology, and mentality, is a dominant culture in America. So most white people in America are feeling like a single (Anglo style) nation.

    Immigrants from other European nationalities, assimilated to anglosaxon heritage of America.

    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language), or considered troublesome nationalities like Jews (which have been now broken by the majority, and most of them are intermarrying and losing their separateness), and Latinos (who retain their own language).

    And today American culture is independent and different to the British one, but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.

    The best elements of American culture are contained in the British civilization - although American civilization has highlighted some more positive aspects and to a more extreme level (free-market capitalism, pragmatic economic approach, individualist spirit and importance of property rights).

    , @Twinkie
    You two are arguing over different things. The fraction of white Americans with English ancestry is very large. However, those with pure or almost pure English genetics is likely a vanishing minority today due to enormous intermarriages among whites of varying European national ancestries in the United States over the years. American whites are highly “recombined” genetically.

    My wife from the small-town Midwest, for example, is all-American and is very WASPy. She tested as 99.9% Western European: about 35% English-Irish, 25% German, 10% Scandinavian, and 30% generic Northwest European. At the same time, she descends from a Continental Army officer whose paternal and maternal surnames dot the landscape in North America.

    In other words, she is a white American mutt.
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  59. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    The real reason for solidarity among Americans, is because of their common anglosaxon ancestry (which is a specific anglosaxon personality, sense of humour, cultural norms and language heritage) which is how inter-European heritage is a political movement across America. There are some other pale, non-anglosaxon nationalities in America (such as Germans, French and Irish), but these groups have had their native culture and language suppressed, and were assimilated to the dominant anglosaxon culture over more than 100 years, so they are now not distinct from anglosaxons.
     
    Absolutely bizzarre claims. Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian's ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture. For instance the Chinese exclusion movement was led by Denis Kearney, a Catholic Irish immigrant. Relations with other races have also always been in terms of white/European against non-white. I don't know why you specify 'pale'; Italians also integrated into white America.


    Primitively, the switch in our brains is between feeling unfriendly to foreigners or the opposite. Either supporting only your own people, or feeling more open to foreigners as well.
     
    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

    To hijack this design feature of our psychology, and create larger trans-continental solidarity between different nationalities (people with their own culture and language), you need to use religion (to construct larger religious identity blocs).
     
    Also not true. There was plenty of racial solidarity among Europeans in their dealings with non-Europeans during the 19th century and early 20th century that was not based on religion.

    Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian’s ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture.

    Genetically they are not all anglosaxon, but culturally they assimilated to a single anglosaxon nationality (with the same language, myths, humour etc – all the important things, which allow you to feel like you are with “your people”).

    White races of non-anglo ancestry in America were assimilated – you can see the behaviour of Americans of German descent fighting against Germany in Second World War. (Japanese Americans by comparison were rehoused in camps, and soldiers from this nationality were not in the Pacific conflict).

    This is why white Americans don’t feel like foreigners to each other – they’re assimilated to the same anglosaxon nation. So concept of single “white nationalism” is very sensible in America and they feel like a single family and country.

    Nationalities which try to keep an independent culture are quite troublesome in America. Jews (who keep their own independent nationality) are considered the most troublesome. But even Latinos (many of which are genetically European people) are politically terrifying for many Americans.

    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

    This socializing dimension is not true in terms of ancestry – but more in culture and language.

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.

    Brazilians of Japanese, Chinese ,German and Portuguese, will all be friends in the same group.

    Nationalities from former Soviet countries are another group. Russians, Georgians, even Kazakhs … you realize abroad everyone is far more similar to each other, than to people like English or German – even though visually English and German are much more similar to Russian, than Georgian is.

    On social level also – certain European nationalities are often more difficult to socialize with, and closeness of the culture is not always helpful .

    I speak English even better than I write it – but Americans are probably the nationalities I’ve found most difficult to socialize with so far, although they slightly easier than Chinese people.

    My own experience might not be representative. But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with? unless they have been in college or school with Americans. For some reason, other nationalities like Irish and even Japanese, are seeming much easier to talk to (in real life – on the internet Americans are easy to discuss with).

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    • Replies: @DFH

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.
     
    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before. I have seen Africans from Africa, US and Britain group together before, as well as different Westernised East Asians with one another.

    But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with?
     

    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or “melting pots”), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them.
     
    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with one another then you will be destroyed as Europeans nearly were by Muslims.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity – it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one – with things like Erasmus programmes – you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.
     
    These programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless 'European values'; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing). At the start of the 20th century Europeans did have a racial solidarity (at least in their dealings with non-Europeans) without any EU programs.
    , @AaronB
    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate "energy" which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.
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  60. szopen says:
    @Lars Porsena
    I honestly wonder how many Anglos are even in this country. Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland. If you throw a ball over your shoulder it will probably hit an Italian. We have been importing immigrants from all over Europe for a good century or two. And massive amounts of the original european stock even before that was Scottish, Irish, and German (as well as some Dutch and some Scandinavian). The upper midwest is heavily central european and scandinavian. And a fair amount of French in some of the territories it would later absorb. Louisiana is still heavily of French heritage among it's white population and they were all the way up the Mississippi to Chicago. There are probably more Irish in the US than anglo-saxons, certainly way more Irish in the US than their are in the whole of Ireland.

    Why does everyone think it's all English? You guys are falling for anglo propaganda. US whites all speak english but that doesn't mean they are WASPs. According to the wikipedia article on English Americans, in the first US census in 1790 English were 47.5% of the US population and already only 60.9% of the US white population. In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious. But assuming that's true the US is 8% English and 92% Not English. Even assuming 40 million they would not be a majority of whites or even a quarter of all whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American

    There is also an article on white american

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

    Says the total white population is 250 million and the largest white ethnicities in the US are:

    German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.8%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Scotch-Irish Americans (1.7%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), Norwegian Americans (1.5%), and Swedish Americans (1.4%).[15][16][17] However, the English Americans and British Americans demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply "Americans" (6.9%)
     
    So even if you added all of the 6.9% "American" to the 9.2% English you only get 16.1% which is still less than the number of ethnic Germans.

    Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland

    That was true hundred years ago, but surely is not today.

    Warsaw has one million inhabitants. Do you say Poles are more than 1/3 of Chicago’s population, and more than half of white Chicago’s population? I find it unlikely.

    The census I have found claims there are merely 134.000 people of POlish descent (less than hundred years ago which would be quite small city in Poland.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Not in the city limits anymore but in the Metro area. I have heard estimates recently of 2 million poles in the metro area, mainly in the suburbs, I assume counting the illegals and visa holders. Low estimates are over .9-1.1 mil for the metro area.

    So I guess to be fair we should count not everyone in Warsaw but everyone in the "Warsaw Metropolitan Area". How big is that? Chicago might be competitive. Around 10 million people total is usually the figure for the population of the metro area including the suburbs. Depends on how you define the area.
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  61. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB
    Besides, when Dmitry is beginning to parrot my ideas perhaps my work here is done.

    I always knew my first disciple would be one of the Leftists here.

    Nobody is “parroting your ideas”.

    It’s historical reality, that religious blocs have also existed. Usually as way of making empires, easier to manage.

    20th century variant of this game, was in the Soviet Union, where Marxism–Leninism operated with some religious dimensions.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity – it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one – with things like Erasmus programmes – you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.

    By comparison, in America it is possible to have a single European nationalism, because in America most white people are assimilated to a single dominant anglosaxon culture.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or “melting pots”), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them. Although there are nationalities which benefit from this, when they are subsumed by a higher and more advanced culture, as happens in Soviet Union.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    "It is only when the disciple no longer recognizes the source of his ideas that he has truly assimilated them - and the Master rejoices in his own denial by the disciple."

    But I agree - these ideas are basic and obvious to any one who studies history. That's why the attempt to base group identity on biology and not culture or religion seems so illiterate and ignorant - but it is part and parcel of the new barbaric materialism.

    Larger units need not squelch smaller cultural units, and historically rarely did so. Heck, even provinces within countries retain distinct identities.
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  62. @iffen
    and get a relatively good result among ethnic minorities while doing all that?

    (If a Republican candidate starts talking about the white working class and its problems

    Trump would lose votes if he started campaigning as a white nationalist. He needs to continue fighting the MSM and work to increase his black and Hispanic working class vote.

    You said the right should avoid mentioning “white people” because somehow it’s not “acceptable”. I said screw that, we should talk about white people but not get into “white nationalism” (because, as I said, it seems to be just another useless Nazi costume party movement). It’s just a strawman for you to bring up white nationalism to argue against it.

    In fact, we should all talk about white people a lot more so that “white nationalists” don’t manage to monopolize the field of anti-anti-white opinion and drag the subject into their ghetto. The left talks about white people all the time to pile hatred and propaganda and there’s definitely political field to be claimed by being pro-white in contrast. The minorities that might vote right-wing will not be driven away, in fact kicking out self-loathing white cucks and filling the right with unapologetic white men like Trump will gain respect.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    It’s just a strawman for you to bring up white nationalism to argue against it.

    I deny the allegation and I resent the alligator. :)

    I was a bit confused by your comment so I went back and read my comments because there is very little that I disagree with in your comments. The main reason that I object to white nationalism is that it is a dead-end diversion in a politically fraught time. We need a real correction, real improvement, not fantasy. I do disagree with your implication that one can’t defend white people against the current anti-white campaign without also defending white nationalism.
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  63. Dan Hayes says:
    @LondonBob
    Italy has a tiny Jewish population?

    Salvini does actually seem like the real deal.

    LondonBob:

    A few thoughts regarding Italian Jews:

    1. An Orthodox Jewish friend of mine once told me that Italian Jews never amounted to anything because they were never persecuted.

    2. Some Italian Jewish academics prevented the previous pope from addressing their institution because of their petulant ill feelings toward the papacy (ingratitude uber alles!). BTW, it would be fun if these academics were from the University of Rome – a long-standing academic joke!

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I was really surprised how small the population is there, Italy must be, or have been, the most homogenous country in Europe.
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  64. LondonBob says:
    @Lars Porsena
    It is a plausible assertion but is there any evidence?

    In a most literal sense I think you are quite wrong because I doubt a majority of Americans can even trace their ancestry let alone to the first ancestor in America.

    But even back in the 19th century the Irish were said to be outnumbering the anglos, did not necessarily intermarry with anglos (plenty of Irish for that) and have kept some semblance of a separate cultural identity.

    And again, depending on where in the country you are because it is not completely evenly spread but regionally different, your first euro ancestor on the continent was perhaps more likely to be German (Upper Midwest) or French (Louisiana Territory from the Gulf up the Mississippi) or Dutch (New York - Dutch were in the US before the English were).


    Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can
     
    Well that proves everything.

    The fact that you are "London Bob" means (1) You are biased, and (2) how the hell would you know Limey?

    Also you are cheating because "british" isn't a real ethnicity it's an anachronistic imperial construct.

    If you think there were more Irish than Anglo in the 19th century then I cannot help you.

    SJP thought she was solely Jewish and German, but she actually had Puritan ancestors. Just those thirty odd thousand Puritan settlers had over 16 million ancestors by 1988.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    The 19th century was when the biggest bulk of Irish immigration happened.

    It was also what caused a lot of anti-Irish antipathy because there were so many of them. This is where you begin to see the Anglos complaining the Irish are taking over and will eventually outnumber them, which they eventually did.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Just the people who came here from Italy probably had sixteen million descendants who are at least, say, a quarter Italian, by 1988.

    Many more descendents than that, for people who came to the USA from Germany.
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  65. Dmitry says:
    @LondonBob
    The majority of white Americans can trace their first ancestor in America to a British colonist. Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can, as the core culture of America anglo ancestry is the base and therefore less noted these days. Of course WASPs have been heavily demonised since the sixties, but they are right to be envious.

    I’m surprised, if anything, there is no single alliance between all the anglosaxon heritage countries: USA, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand.

    Or the governments do not promote this concept of English World.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    At least there is the Five Eyes, spying on each other’s citizens (i.e. basically using a loophole to spy on their own citizens).
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  66. Dmitry says:
    @Lars Porsena
    It is a plausible assertion but is there any evidence?

    In a most literal sense I think you are quite wrong because I doubt a majority of Americans can even trace their ancestry let alone to the first ancestor in America.

    But even back in the 19th century the Irish were said to be outnumbering the anglos, did not necessarily intermarry with anglos (plenty of Irish for that) and have kept some semblance of a separate cultural identity.

    And again, depending on where in the country you are because it is not completely evenly spread but regionally different, your first euro ancestor on the continent was perhaps more likely to be German (Upper Midwest) or French (Louisiana Territory from the Gulf up the Mississippi) or Dutch (New York - Dutch were in the US before the English were).


    Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can
     
    Well that proves everything.

    The fact that you are "London Bob" means (1) You are biased, and (2) how the hell would you know Limey?

    Also you are cheating because "british" isn't a real ethnicity it's an anachronistic imperial construct.

    Perhaps I was mistaken about how much anglosaxon genetics are in America. But it was not the main point.

    Anglosaxon culture, language, mythology, and mentality, is a dominant culture in America. So most white people in America are feeling like a single (Anglo style) nation.

    Immigrants from other European nationalities, assimilated to anglosaxon heritage of America.

    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language), or considered troublesome nationalities like Jews (which have been now broken by the majority, and most of them are intermarrying and losing their separateness), and Latinos (who retain their own language).

    And today American culture is independent and different to the British one, but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.

    The best elements of American culture are contained in the British civilization – although American civilization has highlighted some more positive aspects and to a more extreme level (free-market capitalism, pragmatic economic approach, individualist spirit and importance of property rights).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena

    but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.
     
    How do you separate them to attribute proper causality to each? It is all entwined. How could we say that separate cultural ancestry and customs did not contribute to the separate evolution of the US? Of course it did.

    Referencing there being more ethnic Germanics in the US than anglos, how can you say that has nothing to do with Americans generally drinking lagers and not ales? It is directly related to the Germaness of German immigrants. If we had not had German immigrants, US anglos would not have started drinking lagers because of the separate evolution of American culture. That came from independent cultural ancestry.


    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language)
     
    It is the tip of the iceberg. I am surrounded by polacks flying their chicken flags and there is a greek gyro stand every other block. They go to the Orthodox church. The Dutch are Calvinist and mainly marry only themselves because they don't want their children to go to hell. Lots of 2nd cousin marriages (very hard to get into Heaven unless your Dutch in Calvinism). If I get tired of tzatziki sauce I can head up to Wisconsin where there is nary a place outside of Germania with a culture more strongly centered around sausage, cheese and beer.

    https://www.vacationsmadeeasy.com/TheBLT/15WisconsinOktoberfestCelebrationstoKnowAboutThisFall.html?PageSpeed=noscript

    The Oktoberfest in Sheboygan has dachshund races.

    Wisconsin is 50% German by ancestry and they only started speaking English within the last hundred years, especially because of WWI & II.

    Aren't you German? If an ethnic German from a German culture displays that much anglophilia, it is much harder to separate Wisconsin learning English as an act of assimilation vs. a manifestation of Germans being German. Germans look up to anglos because anglos treat them unfairly and repeatedly beat the crap out of them.

    If Wisconsin had been Polish and in WWII the US went to war with Pilsudski instead of Hitler, instead of learning to speak English they would have attacked Minnesota. They'd still be resisting. But Germans are different.

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  67. @Dmitry
    I'm surprised, if anything, there is no single alliance between all the anglosaxon heritage countries: USA, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand.

    Or the governments do not promote this concept of English World.

    At least there is the Five Eyes, spying on each other’s citizens (i.e. basically using a loophole to spy on their own citizens).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Instead of NATO (where they are wasting a lot of their resources "defending" countries where they should not be involved) - America should create an anglosaxon alliance with Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand.

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).

    "Anglo-alliance" would be a lot more streamlined than NATO, and they could lower their involvement in mainland continental Europe (no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass).

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  68. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian’s ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture.
     
    Genetically they are not all anglosaxon, but culturally they assimilated to a single anglosaxon nationality (with the same language, myths, humour etc - all the important things, which allow you to feel like you are with "your people").

    White races of non-anglo ancestry in America were assimilated - you can see the behaviour of Americans of German descent fighting against Germany in Second World War. (Japanese Americans by comparison were rehoused in camps, and soldiers from this nationality were not in the Pacific conflict).

    This is why white Americans don't feel like foreigners to each other - they're assimilated to the same anglosaxon nation. So concept of single "white nationalism" is very sensible in America and they feel like a single family and country.

    Nationalities which try to keep an independent culture are quite troublesome in America. Jews (who keep their own independent nationality) are considered the most troublesome. But even Latinos (many of which are genetically European people) are politically terrifying for many Americans.


    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

     

    This socializing dimension is not true in terms of ancestry - but more in culture and language.

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.

    Brazilians of Japanese, Chinese ,German and Portuguese, will all be friends in the same group.

    Nationalities from former Soviet countries are another group. Russians, Georgians, even Kazakhs ... you realize abroad everyone is far more similar to each other, than to people like English or German - even though visually English and German are much more similar to Russian, than Georgian is.

    On social level also - certain European nationalities are often more difficult to socialize with, and closeness of the culture is not always helpful .

    I speak English even better than I write it - but Americans are probably the nationalities I've found most difficult to socialize with so far, although they slightly easier than Chinese people.

    My own experience might not be representative. But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with? unless they have been in college or school with Americans. For some reason, other nationalities like Irish and even Japanese, are seeming much easier to talk to (in real life - on the internet Americans are easy to discuss with).

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before. I have seen Africans from Africa, US and Britain group together before, as well as different Westernised East Asians with one another.

    But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with?

    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or “melting pots”), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them.

    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with one another then you will be destroyed as Europeans nearly were by Muslims.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity – it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one – with things like Erasmus programmes – you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.

    These programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing). At the start of the 20th century Europeans did have a racial solidarity (at least in their dealings with non-Europeans) without any EU programs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before.

     

    When I've experienced courses where there were Spanish, South Americans and Mexicans. All socially as a very similar group.

    There is a lot more culture compatibility between these nationalities. They watch same YouTubers, listen to same music, same attitude to studying, same catholic religion, and sound like they have the same jokes and feeling for humour.

    The most popular YouTubers Spanish watch, are mainly Latin Americans. There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain. And millions of Spanish in Latin America. All dating each other and intermarrying.

    You can even see in terms of politics - Spanish newspapers like El Pais are discussing Latin American politics in very heavy depth and subtlety (while US newspapers are never discussing Latin American politics, and if they are, a superficial analysis not less than in Russian newspapers describing this part of the world).


    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

     

    Maybe your are correct - I have less experience with Americans than almost any other nationalities. Few ones I have met, including related to work, seem friendly at first, and then cold.

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don't know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don't think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.


    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with

     

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking - there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    Do Japanese and Chinese have solidarity? Or even Indians and Pakistanis? Or Egyptians and Israelis?

    Japanese and Chinese look the same, but they don't have any solidarity on that basis.

    Ethnic solidarity, relies on sense "these are our people" - language and culture compatibility are an important condition involved. (If people don't react or socialize in the way you expect, then you have a sensation of being foreigners).


    hese programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing).
     
    But writing on brochure makes no difference. End result of EU, is that every European nationality is living, studying, and being mixed up with each other.

    On Erasmus programme, millions of students are doing exchanges with students in other European nationalities. EU surely increases mutual understanding between different cultures, but is there solidarity?

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently. However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    For example, Greek population is not behaving exactly like Germans. The incompatible outlooks on the world. Economical incompatibility of the eurozone, was itself expression that they are behaving differently (Germans paying tax and saving, Greeks not).

    To create nationalist solidarity between Greeks and Germans, would require Greeks starting to behave much more like Germans (i.e. cultural assimilation and reduction of culture differences).

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  69. @szopen

    Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland
     
    That was true hundred years ago, but surely is not today.

    Warsaw has one million inhabitants. Do you say Poles are more than 1/3 of Chicago's population, and more than half of white Chicago's population? I find it unlikely.

    The census I have found claims there are merely 134.000 people of POlish descent (less than hundred years ago which would be quite small city in Poland.

    Not in the city limits anymore but in the Metro area. I have heard estimates recently of 2 million poles in the metro area, mainly in the suburbs, I assume counting the illegals and visa holders. Low estimates are over .9-1.1 mil for the metro area.

    So I guess to be fair we should count not everyone in Warsaw but everyone in the “Warsaw Metropolitan Area”. How big is that? Chicago might be competitive. Around 10 million people total is usually the figure for the population of the metro area including the suburbs. Depends on how you define the area.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_metropolitan_area

    "The metropolitan area covers ten counties[1] in the Masovian Voivodeship, with an area of 3,000 km² and a population of 3,101,000 in 2014"
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  70. The South African government has started expropriating the white farmers. I do feel racial solidarity.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/south-africa-begins-seizing-whiteowned-farms/news-story/8937f899bd3f131bfc4ffb648ea5c53b

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    I do feel racial solidarity.

    To arms! To arms!

    That kind of solidarity?
    , @szopen
    They f* up no matter they will do. There is only the question of when, not if. Unless, of course, by some magic the west will suddenly get rid of the soft-heart do-gooders at the top.

    In fact, I would say most of the Europe is f* up. V4 has some chance, but looking at how deluded our supposedly "nationalist" leaders are, I'd say this is also a question of time.
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  71. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry
    Nobody is "parroting your ideas".

    It's historical reality, that religious blocs have also existed. Usually as way of making empires, easier to manage.

    20th century variant of this game, was in the Soviet Union, where Marxism–Leninism operated with some religious dimensions.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity - it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one - with things like Erasmus programmes - you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.

    By comparison, in America it is possible to have a single European nationalism, because in America most white people are assimilated to a single dominant anglosaxon culture.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or "melting pots"), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them. Although there are nationalities which benefit from this, when they are subsumed by a higher and more advanced culture, as happens in Soviet Union.

    “It is only when the disciple no longer recognizes the source of his ideas that he has truly assimilated them – and the Master rejoices in his own denial by the disciple.”

    But I agree – these ideas are basic and obvious to any one who studies history. That’s why the attempt to base group identity on biology and not culture or religion seems so illiterate and ignorant – but it is part and parcel of the new barbaric materialism.

    Larger units need not squelch smaller cultural units, and historically rarely did so. Heck, even provinces within countries retain distinct identities.

    Read More
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  72. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Naturally American culture is most influenced by Anglo culture but the majority of white amerian’s ancestors are not even anglos. Solidarity between them existed independently of assimilation to Anglo culture.
     
    Genetically they are not all anglosaxon, but culturally they assimilated to a single anglosaxon nationality (with the same language, myths, humour etc - all the important things, which allow you to feel like you are with "your people").

    White races of non-anglo ancestry in America were assimilated - you can see the behaviour of Americans of German descent fighting against Germany in Second World War. (Japanese Americans by comparison were rehoused in camps, and soldiers from this nationality were not in the Pacific conflict).

    This is why white Americans don't feel like foreigners to each other - they're assimilated to the same anglosaxon nation. So concept of single "white nationalism" is very sensible in America and they feel like a single family and country.

    Nationalities which try to keep an independent culture are quite troublesome in America. Jews (who keep their own independent nationality) are considered the most troublesome. But even Latinos (many of which are genetically European people) are politically terrifying for many Americans.


    This is not true, a Norwegian will naturally feel closer to a Spaniard than a Ghanaian. If you have a mixed group of Europeans, blacks and Asians, they will sort themselves out along racial lines.

     

    This socializing dimension is not true in terms of ancestry - but more in culture and language.

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.

    Brazilians of Japanese, Chinese ,German and Portuguese, will all be friends in the same group.

    Nationalities from former Soviet countries are another group. Russians, Georgians, even Kazakhs ... you realize abroad everyone is far more similar to each other, than to people like English or German - even though visually English and German are much more similar to Russian, than Georgian is.

    On social level also - certain European nationalities are often more difficult to socialize with, and closeness of the culture is not always helpful .

    I speak English even better than I write it - but Americans are probably the nationalities I've found most difficult to socialize with so far, although they slightly easier than Chinese people.

    My own experience might not be representative. But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with? unless they have been in college or school with Americans. For some reason, other nationalities like Irish and even Japanese, are seeming much easier to talk to (in real life - on the internet Americans are easy to discuss with).

    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate “energy” which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Have you guys tried mentioning the weather?

    Taking people seriously is probably the worst way to get along in America.
    , @Twinkie

    Americans are hard to socialize with
     
    However, I heard many Nothern Europeans say that Americans are very approachable as strangers (“The’ll talk to anyone!”) and come off as friendly, whereas they rate their own peoples (usually Germans and Scandinavians) as unfriendly and borderline hostile to those outside their existing social networks.
    , @iffen
    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.
    , @inertial
    America has the most extroverts per capita in the world (according to Susan Can's Quiet.) Extroverts are not trying to dominate or one up, it's just the way they are. They don't "demonstrate" energy, they naturally draw it from the conversation itself. Yes, they can be tiresome if you are not an extrovert yourself.
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  73. DFH says:
    @g2k
    Interesting times in the UK,

    There's been a real anti-brexit corporate/media push. They're after a second referendum where, they figure, they'll get the "correct" result.

    More antisemitism muck seems to be being flung at corbyn than normal.

    Boris johnson has been attacked by sjws for being rude about the Burqa and censured by his own party leadership. I couldn't care less about him, and there's a lot of cynicism on all sides of this, but it's inducative of just how faw we've come. When Sarkozy was in the process of banning the thing in France, tory establishment figures would be wheeled out to say rude things about it, before explaining that, no matter how bad it was, a ban would be 'un-British'. Now even that is unacceptable.

    Boris johnson has been attacked by sjws for being rude about the Burqa and censured by his own party leadership

    No-one apart from pakis (I suppose) and their most slavish supporters cares at all about this, but Labour have been waiting for an opportunity to try and equate ‘tory islamophobia’ with ‘labour anti-semitism’. The cuckoldry of the Conservatives has no limits. Top tories were calling him a fascist and demanding he apologise. My favourite was from theoretically conservative Matthew d’Ancona (who knew you could be this stupid and still become a fellow of All Souls’?);

    I think – no, I insist – that this is nothing short of deplorable, and that this confrontation poses greater long-term dangers than Powell’s speech in 1968. It is a founding principle of any pluralist society that in our permanent negotiation with one another we strive to be decent and dignified.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/12/boris-johnson-moment-more-decisive-rivers-of-blood

    Read More
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  74. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor
    At least there is the Five Eyes, spying on each other’s citizens (i.e. basically using a loophole to spy on their own citizens).

    Instead of NATO (where they are wasting a lot of their resources “defending” countries where they should not be involved) – America should create an anglosaxon alliance with Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand.

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).

    “Anglo-alliance” would be a lot more streamlined than NATO, and they could lower their involvement in mainland continental Europe (no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass).

    Read More
    • Replies: @LatW

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).
     
    Or... they could honor their original heritage (after all, they are not fully Anglo-Saxon genetically), and use a huge dragon for their symbol to honor Uther Pendragon.
    , @iffen
    no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass

    Did every last Angle and Saxon leave Europe for the UK? Isn't there a Saxony state in Germany?
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  75. LondonBob says:
    @Dan Hayes
    LondonBob:

    A few thoughts regarding Italian Jews:

    1. An Orthodox Jewish friend of mine once told me that Italian Jews never amounted to anything because they were never persecuted.

    2. Some Italian Jewish academics prevented the previous pope from addressing their institution because of their petulant ill feelings toward the papacy (ingratitude uber alles!). BTW, it would be fun if these academics were from the University of Rome - a long-standing academic joke!

    I was really surprised how small the population is there, Italy must be, or have been, the most homogenous country in Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Italy must be, or have been, the most homogenous country in Europe.

    I recall being very impressed by the % of Italian population that was Roman Catholic (at least according to my Information Please Almanac 1959 that I studied religiously), which was something like 99.76%.
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  76. @Dmitry
    Perhaps I was mistaken about how much anglosaxon genetics are in America. But it was not the main point.

    Anglosaxon culture, language, mythology, and mentality, is a dominant culture in America. So most white people in America are feeling like a single (Anglo style) nation.

    Immigrants from other European nationalities, assimilated to anglosaxon heritage of America.

    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language), or considered troublesome nationalities like Jews (which have been now broken by the majority, and most of them are intermarrying and losing their separateness), and Latinos (who retain their own language).

    And today American culture is independent and different to the British one, but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.

    The best elements of American culture are contained in the British civilization - although American civilization has highlighted some more positive aspects and to a more extreme level (free-market capitalism, pragmatic economic approach, individualist spirit and importance of property rights).

    but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.

    How do you separate them to attribute proper causality to each? It is all entwined. How could we say that separate cultural ancestry and customs did not contribute to the separate evolution of the US? Of course it did.

    Referencing there being more ethnic Germanics in the US than anglos, how can you say that has nothing to do with Americans generally drinking lagers and not ales? It is directly related to the Germaness of German immigrants. If we had not had German immigrants, US anglos would not have started drinking lagers because of the separate evolution of American culture. That came from independent cultural ancestry.

    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language)

    It is the tip of the iceberg. I am surrounded by polacks flying their chicken flags and there is a greek gyro stand every other block. They go to the Orthodox church. The Dutch are Calvinist and mainly marry only themselves because they don’t want their children to go to hell. Lots of 2nd cousin marriages (very hard to get into Heaven unless your Dutch in Calvinism). If I get tired of tzatziki sauce I can head up to Wisconsin where there is nary a place outside of Germania with a culture more strongly centered around sausage, cheese and beer.

    https://www.vacationsmadeeasy.com/TheBLT/15WisconsinOktoberfestCelebrationstoKnowAboutThisFall.html?PageSpeed=noscript

    The Oktoberfest in Sheboygan has dachshund races.

    Wisconsin is 50% German by ancestry and they only started speaking English within the last hundred years, especially because of WWI & II.

    Aren’t you German? If an ethnic German from a German culture displays that much anglophilia, it is much harder to separate Wisconsin learning English as an act of assimilation vs. a manifestation of Germans being German. Germans look up to anglos because anglos treat them unfairly and repeatedly beat the crap out of them.

    If Wisconsin had been Polish and in WWII the US went to war with Pilsudski instead of Hitler, instead of learning to speak English they would have attacked Minnesota. They’d still be resisting. But Germans are different.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Prohibition was squarely aimed at Catholic immigrants and their lager drinking, Yankees tended to avoid drink, the South always had their whiskey though.
    , @iffen
    That came from independent cultural ancestry.

    No, it's because the German mafia seized complete control of the beer industry and wouldn't let us have ales.
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  77. LondonBob says:

    The FDI flows between Britain and the US are enormous but I don’t see much else worthwhile. Unlike with the ANZAC two, and to a lesser extent Canada, Canadians need to start playimg cricket and rugby more, there is not the common bond there at the personal level, and that is before we get to the radically changing US demographics. Personally I hope Brexit will see us taking an isolationist Swiss approach, our politicians won’t like that though and seem to be vying to be either an EU or US vassal, stay close to Europe but building closer links with Australia, NZ etc again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    One thing that has emerged in the Brexit debate is that there is nothing whatsoever, apart from sensitivity to the non white Commonwealth, to stop the UK joining a CANZUKIR free movement area (no visas, no work permits). Free movement is to services what zero tariffs are to trade in goods. Of course, all put together they don't amount to a Germany never mind an EU but we can actually have both.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Sorry, someone from formerly-great formerly-Britain is lecturing the USA about OUR worsening demographics? Grow that beard and bend over now, Limey, and “beat the rush”, as we say.

    Sad and avoidable as this suicide was for both our once-glorious nations, I’ll still take our mexicanized Brazil-style future America —with emerging Asian-white overclass in gated communities — over the african/Pakistani Muslim hellhole your country is fast becoming.

    We’ll be speaking Spanish and English and paying higher taxes for our massive Latino welfare class, plus paying more for security due to increased crime even in the suburbs. You’ll be dhimmis, explicitly second-class citizens, subject to sharia, paying the jizya, and bowing and scraping before your Muslim overlords (till the next generation or two sees mass conversion or the Muslims lose patience and just slaughter the rest of you).

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  78. LondonBob says:
    @Lars Porsena

    but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.
     
    How do you separate them to attribute proper causality to each? It is all entwined. How could we say that separate cultural ancestry and customs did not contribute to the separate evolution of the US? Of course it did.

    Referencing there being more ethnic Germanics in the US than anglos, how can you say that has nothing to do with Americans generally drinking lagers and not ales? It is directly related to the Germaness of German immigrants. If we had not had German immigrants, US anglos would not have started drinking lagers because of the separate evolution of American culture. That came from independent cultural ancestry.


    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language)
     
    It is the tip of the iceberg. I am surrounded by polacks flying their chicken flags and there is a greek gyro stand every other block. They go to the Orthodox church. The Dutch are Calvinist and mainly marry only themselves because they don't want their children to go to hell. Lots of 2nd cousin marriages (very hard to get into Heaven unless your Dutch in Calvinism). If I get tired of tzatziki sauce I can head up to Wisconsin where there is nary a place outside of Germania with a culture more strongly centered around sausage, cheese and beer.

    https://www.vacationsmadeeasy.com/TheBLT/15WisconsinOktoberfestCelebrationstoKnowAboutThisFall.html?PageSpeed=noscript

    The Oktoberfest in Sheboygan has dachshund races.

    Wisconsin is 50% German by ancestry and they only started speaking English within the last hundred years, especially because of WWI & II.

    Aren't you German? If an ethnic German from a German culture displays that much anglophilia, it is much harder to separate Wisconsin learning English as an act of assimilation vs. a manifestation of Germans being German. Germans look up to anglos because anglos treat them unfairly and repeatedly beat the crap out of them.

    If Wisconsin had been Polish and in WWII the US went to war with Pilsudski instead of Hitler, instead of learning to speak English they would have attacked Minnesota. They'd still be resisting. But Germans are different.

    Prohibition was squarely aimed at Catholic immigrants and their lager drinking, Yankees tended to avoid drink, the South always had their whiskey though.

    Read More
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  79. @AaronB
    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate "energy" which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.

    Have you guys tried mentioning the weather?

    Taking people seriously is probably the worst way to get along in America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I find Americans take themselves way too seriously - they are always trying to prove themselves, it seems.

    My remarks probably dont apply to all Americans - just big city urban striver types in NYC, SF, LA, etc.

    People in the South were pretty relaxed and friendly, if I recall.
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  80. LatW says:
    @Dmitry
    Instead of NATO (where they are wasting a lot of their resources "defending" countries where they should not be involved) - America should create an anglosaxon alliance with Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand.

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).

    "Anglo-alliance" would be a lot more streamlined than NATO, and they could lower their involvement in mainland continental Europe (no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass).

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).

    Or… they could honor their original heritage (after all, they are not fully Anglo-Saxon genetically), and use a huge dragon for their symbol to honor Uther Pendragon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    We in Wales have that already.
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  81. @LondonBob
    If you think there were more Irish than Anglo in the 19th century then I cannot help you.

    SJP thought she was solely Jewish and German, but she actually had Puritan ancestors. Just those thirty odd thousand Puritan settlers had over 16 million ancestors by 1988.

    The 19th century was when the biggest bulk of Irish immigration happened.

    It was also what caused a lot of anti-Irish antipathy because there were so many of them. This is where you begin to see the Anglos complaining the Irish are taking over and will eventually outnumber them, which they eventually did.

    Read More
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  82. @LondonBob
    The FDI flows between Britain and the US are enormous but I don't see much else worthwhile. Unlike with the ANZAC two, and to a lesser extent Canada, Canadians need to start playimg cricket and rugby more, there is not the common bond there at the personal level, and that is before we get to the radically changing US demographics. Personally I hope Brexit will see us taking an isolationist Swiss approach, our politicians won't like that though and seem to be vying to be either an EU or US vassal, stay close to Europe but building closer links with Australia, NZ etc again.

    One thing that has emerged in the Brexit debate is that there is nothing whatsoever, apart from sensitivity to the non white Commonwealth, to stop the UK joining a CANZUKIR free movement area (no visas, no work permits). Free movement is to services what zero tariffs are to trade in goods. Of course, all put together they don’t amount to a Germany never mind an EU but we can actually have both.

    Read More
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  83. @LatW

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).
     
    Or... they could honor their original heritage (after all, they are not fully Anglo-Saxon genetically), and use a huge dragon for their symbol to honor Uther Pendragon.

    We in Wales have that already.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LatW

    We in Wales have that already.
     
    I know. :) Awesome. A red dragon flying over a castle.
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  84. iffen says:
    @Dmitry
    Instead of NATO (where they are wasting a lot of their resources "defending" countries where they should not be involved) - America should create an anglosaxon alliance with Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand.

    They could use for their logo the Sutton Hoo helmet (it would actually be scary).

    "Anglo-alliance" would be a lot more streamlined than NATO, and they could lower their involvement in mainland continental Europe (no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass).

    no anglosaxon countries are part of the mainland Eurasia landmass

    Did every last Angle and Saxon leave Europe for the UK? Isn’t there a Saxony state in Germany?

    Read More
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  85. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    The South African government has started expropriating the white farmers. I do feel racial solidarity.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/south-africa-begins-seizing-whiteowned-farms/news-story/8937f899bd3f131bfc4ffb648ea5c53b

    I do feel racial solidarity.

    To arms! To arms!

    That kind of solidarity?

    Read More
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  86. LatW says:
    @Philip Owen
    We in Wales have that already.

    We in Wales have that already.

    I know. :) Awesome. A red dragon flying over a castle.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Mention of Wales and the dragon always reminds me of this scene:
    https://youtu.be/bLIsqYKDqY8?t=3m30s

    "...but for Wales?"

    Cinema at its best!

    Peace.
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  87. Twinkie says:
    @Lars Porsena
    It is a plausible assertion but is there any evidence?

    In a most literal sense I think you are quite wrong because I doubt a majority of Americans can even trace their ancestry let alone to the first ancestor in America.

    But even back in the 19th century the Irish were said to be outnumbering the anglos, did not necessarily intermarry with anglos (plenty of Irish for that) and have kept some semblance of a separate cultural identity.

    And again, depending on where in the country you are because it is not completely evenly spread but regionally different, your first euro ancestor on the continent was perhaps more likely to be German (Upper Midwest) or French (Louisiana Territory from the Gulf up the Mississippi) or Dutch (New York - Dutch were in the US before the English were).


    Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can
     
    Well that proves everything.

    The fact that you are "London Bob" means (1) You are biased, and (2) how the hell would you know Limey?

    Also you are cheating because "british" isn't a real ethnicity it's an anachronistic imperial construct.

    You two are arguing over different things. The fraction of white Americans with English ancestry is very large. However, those with pure or almost pure English genetics is likely a vanishing minority today due to enormous intermarriages among whites of varying European national ancestries in the United States over the years. American whites are highly “recombined” genetically.

    My wife from the small-town Midwest, for example, is all-American and is very WASPy. She tested as 99.9% Western European: about 35% English-Irish, 25% German, 10% Scandinavian, and 30% generic Northwest European. At the same time, she descends from a Continental Army officer whose paternal and maternal surnames dot the landscape in North America.

    In other words, she is a white American mutt.

    Read More
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  88. Twinkie says:
    @AaronB
    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate "energy" which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.

    Americans are hard to socialize with

    However, I heard many Nothern Europeans say that Americans are very approachable as strangers (“The’ll talk to anyone!”) and come off as friendly, whereas they rate their own peoples (usually Germans and Scandinavians) as unfriendly and borderline hostile to those outside their existing social networks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LatW
    Agree. Americans are very open and very easy to talk to. Yea, a little loud sometimes but not most of the time anyway... :) In many parts of Europe, people don't even do small talk like they do in the US. However, friendships for educated Anglo, Celto, Germanic Americans are very atomized - they maintain friendships over the years but don't feel the need to meet for months. It's quite individualistic.
    , @AaronB
    That is the stereotype, I suppose.

    Personally, I find Europeans quite easy to approach and quite friendly.
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  89. LatW says:
    @Twinkie

    Americans are hard to socialize with
     
    However, I heard many Nothern Europeans say that Americans are very approachable as strangers (“The’ll talk to anyone!”) and come off as friendly, whereas they rate their own peoples (usually Germans and Scandinavians) as unfriendly and borderline hostile to those outside their existing social networks.

    Agree. Americans are very open and very easy to talk to. Yea, a little loud sometimes but not most of the time anyway… :) In many parts of Europe, people don’t even do small talk like they do in the US. However, friendships for educated Anglo, Celto, Germanic Americans are very atomized – they maintain friendships over the years but don’t feel the need to meet for months. It’s quite individualistic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    However, friendships for educated Anglo, Celto, Germanic Americans are very atomized – they maintain friendships over the years but don’t feel the need to meet for months. It’s quite individualistic.
     
    It’s like that for just about all Americans except perhaps very recent immigrants and those who live in very small towns.
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  90. Talha says:
    @LatW

    We in Wales have that already.
     
    I know. :) Awesome. A red dragon flying over a castle.

    Mention of Wales and the dragon always reminds me of this scene:

    “…but for Wales?”

    Cinema at its best!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    LOL
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  91. iffen says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    You said the right should avoid mentioning "white people" because somehow it's not "acceptable". I said screw that, we should talk about white people but not get into "white nationalism" (because, as I said, it seems to be just another useless Nazi costume party movement). It's just a strawman for you to bring up white nationalism to argue against it.

    In fact, we should all talk about white people a lot more so that "white nationalists" don't manage to monopolize the field of anti-anti-white opinion and drag the subject into their ghetto. The left talks about white people all the time to pile hatred and propaganda and there's definitely political field to be claimed by being pro-white in contrast. The minorities that might vote right-wing will not be driven away, in fact kicking out self-loathing white cucks and filling the right with unapologetic white men like Trump will gain respect.

    It’s just a strawman for you to bring up white nationalism to argue against it.

    I deny the allegation and I resent the alligator. :)

    I was a bit confused by your comment so I went back and read my comments because there is very little that I disagree with in your comments. The main reason that I object to white nationalism is that it is a dead-end diversion in a politically fraught time. We need a real correction, real improvement, not fantasy. I do disagree with your implication that one can’t defend white people against the current anti-white campaign without also defending white nationalism.

    Read More
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  92. @LondonBob
    I was really surprised how small the population is there, Italy must be, or have been, the most homogenous country in Europe.

    Italy must be, or have been, the most homogenous country in Europe.

    I recall being very impressed by the % of Italian population that was Roman Catholic (at least according to my Information Please Almanac 1959 that I studied religiously), which was something like 99.76%.

    Read More
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  93. iffen says:
    @AaronB
    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate "energy" which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.

    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @neutral

    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.
     
    They are really are unpleasant people to have around, this is generally the view you will get from most people in the world. The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese and of course Israelis.
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  94. iffen says:
    @Lars Porsena

    but this is a result more of independent evolution, not independent cultural ancestry.
     
    How do you separate them to attribute proper causality to each? It is all entwined. How could we say that separate cultural ancestry and customs did not contribute to the separate evolution of the US? Of course it did.

    Referencing there being more ethnic Germanics in the US than anglos, how can you say that has nothing to do with Americans generally drinking lagers and not ales? It is directly related to the Germaness of German immigrants. If we had not had German immigrants, US anglos would not have started drinking lagers because of the separate evolution of American culture. That came from independent cultural ancestry.


    Sure, there are some small exceptions like Cajuns (who still speak a variation of French), or religious minorities like Amish (who keep their own language)
     
    It is the tip of the iceberg. I am surrounded by polacks flying their chicken flags and there is a greek gyro stand every other block. They go to the Orthodox church. The Dutch are Calvinist and mainly marry only themselves because they don't want their children to go to hell. Lots of 2nd cousin marriages (very hard to get into Heaven unless your Dutch in Calvinism). If I get tired of tzatziki sauce I can head up to Wisconsin where there is nary a place outside of Germania with a culture more strongly centered around sausage, cheese and beer.

    https://www.vacationsmadeeasy.com/TheBLT/15WisconsinOktoberfestCelebrationstoKnowAboutThisFall.html?PageSpeed=noscript

    The Oktoberfest in Sheboygan has dachshund races.

    Wisconsin is 50% German by ancestry and they only started speaking English within the last hundred years, especially because of WWI & II.

    Aren't you German? If an ethnic German from a German culture displays that much anglophilia, it is much harder to separate Wisconsin learning English as an act of assimilation vs. a manifestation of Germans being German. Germans look up to anglos because anglos treat them unfairly and repeatedly beat the crap out of them.

    If Wisconsin had been Polish and in WWII the US went to war with Pilsudski instead of Hitler, instead of learning to speak English they would have attacked Minnesota. They'd still be resisting. But Germans are different.

    That came from independent cultural ancestry.

    No, it’s because the German mafia seized complete control of the beer industry and wouldn’t let us have ales.

    Read More
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  95. Twinkie says:
    @LatW
    Agree. Americans are very open and very easy to talk to. Yea, a little loud sometimes but not most of the time anyway... :) In many parts of Europe, people don't even do small talk like they do in the US. However, friendships for educated Anglo, Celto, Germanic Americans are very atomized - they maintain friendships over the years but don't feel the need to meet for months. It's quite individualistic.

    However, friendships for educated Anglo, Celto, Germanic Americans are very atomized – they maintain friendships over the years but don’t feel the need to meet for months. It’s quite individualistic.

    It’s like that for just about all Americans except perhaps very recent immigrants and those who live in very small towns.

    Read More
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  96. neutral says:
    @iffen
    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.

    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.

    They are really are unpleasant people to have around, this is generally the view you will get from most people in the world. The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese and of course Israelis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Unz commenters? I didn't know our reputation preceded us that much.
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  97. @neutral

    Americans are hard to socialize with

    Few Americans are like Unz Enquirer commenters.
     
    They are really are unpleasant people to have around, this is generally the view you will get from most people in the world. The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese and of course Israelis.

    Unz commenters? I didn’t know our reputation preceded us that much.

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @iffen
    The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese

    Dan C. must be hell-on-wheels when out of the country.
    , @neutral
    I was talking about Americans being unpleasant.
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  98. iffen says:
    @Lars Porsena
    Unz commenters? I didn't know our reputation preceded us that much.

    The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese

    Dan C. must be hell-on-wheels when out of the country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China's new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them. Their déclassé and "rustic" manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    This huge gap in values and behavior simply means Chinese travellers don't give a shit and the people who hate them are all the more infuriated because their none too subtle condescension is blithely ignored.

    To give you a visual metaphor for this phenomenon simply look at contemporary Western middle class tastes that run towards Scandinavian and Mid-century modern decor. In other words Ikea.

    https://info.ikea-usa.com/moving/living-room

    Contemporary Chinese tastes runs toward something that looks like a mix between a Casino lobby and Versaille.

    http://www.joseslifeetc.com/style-of-china-interior/wonderful-traditional-luxury-and-sexy-chinese-living-room-design-ideas/

    I'm not joking with you, that is how middle class Chinese prefer to decorate their homes, complete with the mirror finished refletive flooring.

    People in the Ikea camp look down on the people who like the latter as "tacky" or "unrefined". The people who prefer the latter dont care and like what they like, which is simply their idea of "European bling".
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  99. inertial says:
    @AaronB
    Americans are hard to socialize with because they are constantly trying to one up each other and dominate the conversation, or demonstrate "energy" which becomes tiresom, and because in America one is meant to work not engage in cultured talk. Its not a skill that is valued here.

    They also find a lighthearted cultured social style offensive as they feel you are not taking them seriously enough and not focusing on projects and work and such serious things.

    The arts of civilized life are not cultivated in America.

    America has the most extroverts per capita in the world (according to Susan Can’s Quiet.) Extroverts are not trying to dominate or one up, it’s just the way they are. They don’t “demonstrate” energy, they naturally draw it from the conversation itself. Yes, they can be tiresome if you are not an extrovert yourself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Why do you assume extroverts are not culturally created?
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  100. megabar says:
    @Talha

    And Talha is correct, we can’t do that in the US.
     
    Took the boys to see the USAF Thunderbirds perform over Lake Michigan - bread and circus for sure, but man it is riveting seeing those F-16s pull off those maneuvers. Uncle Sam letting the imperial subjects know their tax dollars are well spent.

    Anyway, a few observations:
    1) There were a lot of police on hand but they were huddled in one area and away from the civilians and where I was sitting it was very diverse; Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians - all milling about - everyone being respectful of each other - a polite "excuse me" if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone's way - it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    2) Walking to the lake, we came across plenty of churches (beautiful old-style architecture, stained glass, etc.). I noticed within a block there were fairly large churches of four different sects - there may have been a few more churches close by from other sects as well, but were simply not in my path. I realized that these reflect the era in which they were built - an America that took Christian faith seriously enough that four different congregations would devote time, wealth and energy into building churches based on their variant understandings of the faith. Now we have mega-churches which seem hallmarks of a cultural Christianity; the people don't care for minutiae of doctrine between Presbyterians and Episcopalians, etc. Related to the above point is a very interesting article:
    "Apatheism Is More Damaging to Christianity Than Atheism and Antitheism"
    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/08/21919/

    3) Will not make the mistake of trying to drive to an event in downtown - much easier to just take the train and walk instead of spend an hour looking for affordable parking.

    4) Had no clue how popular tattoos have become even among normal people.

    Peace.

    USA! USA!

    > Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians – all milling about – everyone being respectful of each other – a polite “excuse me” if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone’s way – it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    If this is supposed to mean that a multiracial society can work, then I think you are making several mistakes.

    First of all, a military exhibition is likely to select for a certain type of person. Not necessarily smart or wealthy, mind you — indeed, the times I’ve been to these, there has been a degree of “white trash.” But you’re not generally going to see gangsters, for example.

    Secondly, no reasonable person disputes that all races have a large number of good and decent people. The leftist motif of “most immigrants are good!” is _generally_ true.

    But societies do not prosper merely because 51% of the people are decent. For a society to prosper, you need (among other things): (a) _almost everyone_ to be peaceful and civil; (b) enough average productivity from your people; and (c) enough equality in talent to avoid obvious and too-large differences in outcomes.

    If you don’t have (a), society will be high-threat and low-trust. If 95% of the people aren’t violent, then 5% are — this makes for a very violent society. If you don’t have (b), your society will lack prosperity, and will lose ground to societies that are more productive, eventually becoming irrelevant and subject to the power of others. Every non-productive citizen brings down the average, even if they’re nice. If you don’t have (c), you will have unrest and tension between the haves and have-nots, even if the have-nots are hard-working and decent, and even if the haves are not oppressing anyone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    If this is supposed to mean that a multiracial society can work

    Multiracial societies have "worked" forever. Whether they "work" like the observer wishes that they would is up for debate.
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  101. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    If you have experience in international courses, you see Latin people (which are including people of both white and brown races) are one group, which is not easy to distinguish between them.
     
    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before. I have seen Africans from Africa, US and Britain group together before, as well as different Westernised East Asians with one another.

    But I doubt any others find American people easy to socialize with?
     

    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

    Personally, I am not such a fan of creating larger blocs (whether in empires, unions, or “melting pots”), as it often kills the cultures of the independent nations which form them.
     
    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with one another then you will be destroyed as Europeans nearly were by Muslims.

    Currently there is a vast attempt to create a single European nation and solidarity – it is the EU. The project itself has religious dimensions. But, even with its limitless financial expenditure, and indoctrination of the youth to believe all Europeans are one – with things like Erasmus programmes – you can see how unsuccessful it has been in creating a single European nationalism and solidarity.
     
    These programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless 'European values'; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing). At the start of the 20th century Europeans did have a racial solidarity (at least in their dealings with non-Europeans) without any EU programs.

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before.

    When I’ve experienced courses where there were Spanish, South Americans and Mexicans. All socially as a very similar group.

    There is a lot more culture compatibility between these nationalities. They watch same YouTubers, listen to same music, same attitude to studying, same catholic religion, and sound like they have the same jokes and feeling for humour.

    The most popular YouTubers Spanish watch, are mainly Latin Americans. There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain. And millions of Spanish in Latin America. All dating each other and intermarrying.

    You can even see in terms of politics – Spanish newspapers like El Pais are discussing Latin American politics in very heavy depth and subtlety (while US newspapers are never discussing Latin American politics, and if they are, a superficial analysis not less than in Russian newspapers describing this part of the world).

    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

    Maybe your are correct – I have less experience with Americans than almost any other nationalities. Few ones I have met, including related to work, seem friendly at first, and then cold.

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don’t know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don’t think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.

    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    Do Japanese and Chinese have solidarity? Or even Indians and Pakistanis? Or Egyptians and Israelis?

    Japanese and Chinese look the same, but they don’t have any solidarity on that basis.

    Ethnic solidarity, relies on sense “these are our people” – language and culture compatibility are an important condition involved. (If people don’t react or socialize in the way you expect, then you have a sensation of being foreigners).

    hese programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing).

    But writing on brochure makes no difference. End result of EU, is that every European nationality is living, studying, and being mixed up with each other.

    On Erasmus programme, millions of students are doing exchanges with students in other European nationalities. EU surely increases mutual understanding between different cultures, but is there solidarity?

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently. However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    For example, Greek population is not behaving exactly like Germans. The incompatible outlooks on the world. Economical incompatibility of the eurozone, was itself expression that they are behaving differently (Germans paying tax and saving, Greeks not).

    To create nationalist solidarity between Greeks and Germans, would require Greeks starting to behave much more like Germans (i.e. cultural assimilation and reduction of culture differences).

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain.

    Really?
    , @AaronB

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don’t know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don’t think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.
     
    I agree. For me, there is just something "off" about Americans.

    Even when I travel I get along effortlessly with all the Euros I meet in Asia or South America or wherever - somehow Americans always react to me as if they are in a competition with me. Its bizarre. Euros are just relaxed and comfortable with themselves in a way Americans are not.

    There is an aggression, a coldness, at the bottom of the American character - I dont blame the people. Its the culture.

    In NYC, except for childhood friends, everyone I hang out with is European.

    I just do not get along with Americans - it's why I'm leaving.
    , @DFH

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.
     
    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don't know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just 'visual similarity'. Europeans consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.


    However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.
     
    Did Europeans have fewer cultural distinctions in 1900, when they had much more racial solidarity? For instance, at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered.” I don't see how this required the erasure of cultural distinctions.

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently
     
    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don't know what this has to do with solidarity.
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  102. @iffen
    The only worst tourists are possibly the Chinese

    Dan C. must be hell-on-wheels when out of the country.

    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China’s new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them. Their déclassé and “rustic” manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    This huge gap in values and behavior simply means Chinese travellers don’t give a shit and the people who hate them are all the more infuriated because their none too subtle condescension is blithely ignored.

    To give you a visual metaphor for this phenomenon simply look at contemporary Western middle class tastes that run towards Scandinavian and Mid-century modern decor. In other words Ikea.

    https://info.ikea-usa.com/moving/living-room

    Contemporary Chinese tastes runs toward something that looks like a mix between a Casino lobby and Versaille.

    http://www.joseslifeetc.com/style-of-china-interior/wonderful-traditional-luxury-and-sexy-chinese-living-room-design-ideas/

    I’m not joking with you, that is how middle class Chinese prefer to decorate their homes, complete with the mirror finished refletive flooring.

    People in the Ikea camp look down on the people who like the latter as “tacky” or “unrefined”. The people who prefer the latter dont care and like what they like, which is simply their idea of “European bling”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China’s new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them.
     
    Yes, but even “the upper class” Chinese seem to be gaudy and loud as travelers.

    Their déclassé and “rustic” manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.
     
    They are irritating to all civilized peoples, you know, those who able to form queues spontaneously and patiently without any coercive authority present.

    I do think, though, as the Chinese become richer and more accustomed to worlds outside their own, they will act more civilized and considerate when visiting other countries.
    , @utu
    Chinese art and design is rather gaudy to Europeans. Otoh Japanese achieved esthetic minimalism and balance that is very pleasing and acceptable to Europeans.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Bad example. IKEA is prole and lower middle class, for the people who can't afford to spend on taste. There is no "IKEA camp" of taste and going within miles of any chain store or buying mass produced is declassé.

    Status conscious Europeans with money want uniqueness like furniture from an antique trader or a handcraft by a contemporary designer. Ideally they want a home where everything is a unique design that you can't find anywhere else, including the house which will be a unique design by an architect with name recognition, it will be decorated with paintings by artists with name recognition and so on.

    If they're old money they'll have portraits of ancestors by dead artists with name recognition. New money is at a disadvantage in status and I guess one reason the tastes of Chinese and Russian rich have gone off the rails in gaudiness is because after communist revolutions there was no old money class to set an example of style.

    Europe and America also have a strange new class of low income but status conscious people. They're where baizuo comes from. Since they don't have money to spend on status they signal with the political and moral beliefs of the upper class and by expressing contempt for the tastes and desires of common people. It's an attempt at increasing your status by avoiding things that low status people would do (like going to IKEA) while not being able to afford the things that high status people can afford.

    Consumer wealth is new in China and there are still dirt poor peasants so merely being able to buy stuff is still a show of status. This will change and then what you're buying will start mattering more for status like it does in the West. It will be a sign of low status to buy certain things.
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  103. iffen says:
    @megabar
    > Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians – all milling about – everyone being respectful of each other – a polite “excuse me” if someone accidentally stepped on a foot or got in someone’s way – it reinforced the idea that most people are good and decent and get along fairly well despite differences

    If this is supposed to mean that a multiracial society can work, then I think you are making several mistakes.

    First of all, a military exhibition is likely to select for a certain type of person. Not necessarily smart or wealthy, mind you -- indeed, the times I've been to these, there has been a degree of "white trash." But you're not generally going to see gangsters, for example.

    Secondly, no reasonable person disputes that all races have a large number of good and decent people. The leftist motif of "most immigrants are good!" is _generally_ true.

    But societies do not prosper merely because 51% of the people are decent. For a society to prosper, you need (among other things): (a) _almost everyone_ to be peaceful and civil; (b) enough average productivity from your people; and (c) enough equality in talent to avoid obvious and too-large differences in outcomes.

    If you don't have (a), society will be high-threat and low-trust. If 95% of the people aren't violent, then 5% are -- this makes for a very violent society. If you don't have (b), your society will lack prosperity, and will lose ground to societies that are more productive, eventually becoming irrelevant and subject to the power of others. Every non-productive citizen brings down the average, even if they're nice. If you don't have (c), you will have unrest and tension between the haves and have-nots, even if the have-nots are hard-working and decent, and even if the haves are not oppressing anyone.

    If this is supposed to mean that a multiracial society can work

    Multiracial societies have “worked” forever. Whether they “work” like the observer wishes that they would is up for debate.

    Read More
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  104. AaronB says:
    @inertial
    America has the most extroverts per capita in the world (according to Susan Can's Quiet.) Extroverts are not trying to dominate or one up, it's just the way they are. They don't "demonstrate" energy, they naturally draw it from the conversation itself. Yes, they can be tiresome if you are not an extrovert yourself.

    Why do you assume extroverts are not culturally created?

    Read More
    • Replies: @inertial
    I make no claims as to their origins. Although I suspect that this trait is at least partially inherited.
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  105. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before.

     

    When I've experienced courses where there were Spanish, South Americans and Mexicans. All socially as a very similar group.

    There is a lot more culture compatibility between these nationalities. They watch same YouTubers, listen to same music, same attitude to studying, same catholic religion, and sound like they have the same jokes and feeling for humour.

    The most popular YouTubers Spanish watch, are mainly Latin Americans. There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain. And millions of Spanish in Latin America. All dating each other and intermarrying.

    You can even see in terms of politics - Spanish newspapers like El Pais are discussing Latin American politics in very heavy depth and subtlety (while US newspapers are never discussing Latin American politics, and if they are, a superficial analysis not less than in Russian newspapers describing this part of the world).


    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

     

    Maybe your are correct - I have less experience with Americans than almost any other nationalities. Few ones I have met, including related to work, seem friendly at first, and then cold.

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don't know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don't think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.


    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with

     

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking - there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    Do Japanese and Chinese have solidarity? Or even Indians and Pakistanis? Or Egyptians and Israelis?

    Japanese and Chinese look the same, but they don't have any solidarity on that basis.

    Ethnic solidarity, relies on sense "these are our people" - language and culture compatibility are an important condition involved. (If people don't react or socialize in the way you expect, then you have a sensation of being foreigners).


    hese programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing).
     
    But writing on brochure makes no difference. End result of EU, is that every European nationality is living, studying, and being mixed up with each other.

    On Erasmus programme, millions of students are doing exchanges with students in other European nationalities. EU surely increases mutual understanding between different cultures, but is there solidarity?

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently. However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    For example, Greek population is not behaving exactly like Germans. The incompatible outlooks on the world. Economical incompatibility of the eurozone, was itself expression that they are behaving differently (Germans paying tax and saving, Greeks not).

    To create nationalist solidarity between Greeks and Germans, would require Greeks starting to behave much more like Germans (i.e. cultural assimilation and reduction of culture differences).

    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain.

    Really?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain, with Spanish citizenship. I wonder if it is even undercounted, because of their citizenship is not Latin American (so their children are just counted as Spanish).

    http://www.lacelosia.com/la-cepan/

    So if says above 2,4 million Latin American immigrants in Spain - but does it include all the ones with Spanish citizenship, and their children?
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  106. AaronB says:
    @Twinkie

    Americans are hard to socialize with
     
    However, I heard many Nothern Europeans say that Americans are very approachable as strangers (“The’ll talk to anyone!”) and come off as friendly, whereas they rate their own peoples (usually Germans and Scandinavians) as unfriendly and borderline hostile to those outside their existing social networks.

    That is the stereotype, I suppose.

    Personally, I find Europeans quite easy to approach and quite friendly.

    Read More
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  107. AaronB says:
    @Lars Porsena
    Have you guys tried mentioning the weather?

    Taking people seriously is probably the worst way to get along in America.

    I find Americans take themselves way too seriously – they are always trying to prove themselves, it seems.

    My remarks probably dont apply to all Americans – just big city urban striver types in NYC, SF, LA, etc.

    People in the South were pretty relaxed and friendly, if I recall.

    Read More
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  108. Twinkie says:
    @Duke of Qin
    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China's new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them. Their déclassé and "rustic" manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    This huge gap in values and behavior simply means Chinese travellers don't give a shit and the people who hate them are all the more infuriated because their none too subtle condescension is blithely ignored.

    To give you a visual metaphor for this phenomenon simply look at contemporary Western middle class tastes that run towards Scandinavian and Mid-century modern decor. In other words Ikea.

    https://info.ikea-usa.com/moving/living-room

    Contemporary Chinese tastes runs toward something that looks like a mix between a Casino lobby and Versaille.

    http://www.joseslifeetc.com/style-of-china-interior/wonderful-traditional-luxury-and-sexy-chinese-living-room-design-ideas/

    I'm not joking with you, that is how middle class Chinese prefer to decorate their homes, complete with the mirror finished refletive flooring.

    People in the Ikea camp look down on the people who like the latter as "tacky" or "unrefined". The people who prefer the latter dont care and like what they like, which is simply their idea of "European bling".

    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China’s new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them.

    Yes, but even “the upper class” Chinese seem to be gaudy and loud as travelers.

    Their déclassé and “rustic” manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    They are irritating to all civilized peoples, you know, those who able to form queues spontaneously and patiently without any coercive authority present.

    I do think, though, as the Chinese become richer and more accustomed to worlds outside their own, they will act more civilized and considerate when visiting other countries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    "Civilized" people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It's a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe "fuck you" attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.
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  109. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before.

     

    When I've experienced courses where there were Spanish, South Americans and Mexicans. All socially as a very similar group.

    There is a lot more culture compatibility between these nationalities. They watch same YouTubers, listen to same music, same attitude to studying, same catholic religion, and sound like they have the same jokes and feeling for humour.

    The most popular YouTubers Spanish watch, are mainly Latin Americans. There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain. And millions of Spanish in Latin America. All dating each other and intermarrying.

    You can even see in terms of politics - Spanish newspapers like El Pais are discussing Latin American politics in very heavy depth and subtlety (while US newspapers are never discussing Latin American politics, and if they are, a superficial analysis not less than in Russian newspapers describing this part of the world).


    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

     

    Maybe your are correct - I have less experience with Americans than almost any other nationalities. Few ones I have met, including related to work, seem friendly at first, and then cold.

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don't know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don't think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.


    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with

     

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking - there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    Do Japanese and Chinese have solidarity? Or even Indians and Pakistanis? Or Egyptians and Israelis?

    Japanese and Chinese look the same, but they don't have any solidarity on that basis.

    Ethnic solidarity, relies on sense "these are our people" - language and culture compatibility are an important condition involved. (If people don't react or socialize in the way you expect, then you have a sensation of being foreigners).


    hese programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing).
     
    But writing on brochure makes no difference. End result of EU, is that every European nationality is living, studying, and being mixed up with each other.

    On Erasmus programme, millions of students are doing exchanges with students in other European nationalities. EU surely increases mutual understanding between different cultures, but is there solidarity?

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently. However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    For example, Greek population is not behaving exactly like Germans. The incompatible outlooks on the world. Economical incompatibility of the eurozone, was itself expression that they are behaving differently (Germans paying tax and saving, Greeks not).

    To create nationalist solidarity between Greeks and Germans, would require Greeks starting to behave much more like Germans (i.e. cultural assimilation and reduction of culture differences).

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don’t know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don’t think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.

    I agree. For me, there is just something “off” about Americans.

    Even when I travel I get along effortlessly with all the Euros I meet in Asia or South America or wherever – somehow Americans always react to me as if they are in a competition with me. Its bizarre. Euros are just relaxed and comfortable with themselves in a way Americans are not.

    There is an aggression, a coldness, at the bottom of the American character – I dont blame the people. Its the culture.

    In NYC, except for childhood friends, everyone I hang out with is European.

    I just do not get along with Americans – it’s why I’m leaving.

    Read More
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  110. iffen says:

    it’s why I’m leaving.

    Don’t let the door …..

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    You see, you are taking it seriously and personally.

    Americans :)
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  111. iffen says:

    they will act more civilized and considerate when visiting other countries.

    Ouch!

    Read More
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  112. AaronB says:
    @iffen
    it’s why I’m leaving.

    Don't let the door .....

    You see, you are taking it seriously and personally.

    Americans :)

    Read More
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  113. @Twinkie

    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China’s new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them.
     
    Yes, but even “the upper class” Chinese seem to be gaudy and loud as travelers.

    Their déclassé and “rustic” manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.
     
    They are irritating to all civilized peoples, you know, those who able to form queues spontaneously and patiently without any coercive authority present.

    I do think, though, as the Chinese become richer and more accustomed to worlds outside their own, they will act more civilized and considerate when visiting other countries.

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    You got upset. Only this explains you talking nonsense. The C-word, right?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I think Confucius would disagree.

    Rudeness is preferable versus weakness, but I think that it is possible to hold cultural confidence without having to be necessarily obnoxious. And understanding the normal of others shouldn't demand identification with it.
    , @Twinkie

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.
     
    The English - at the peak of their power - were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction... Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude
     
    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies
     
    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture
     
    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.
    , @gmachine1729
    YES, YES, YES!!!!

    Especially now that China has the hard power and money to back it up, with the trend there even more to her favor. I fucking hate the liberal Chinese cucks in America who might engage in activism but dare not challenge American social and political norms, which is at the root of the problem. Chinese should feel none the worse for aggressively promoting the Chinese historical and political narrative internationally. If people don't like it, too bad. Use your economic power to punish them accordingly as much as you can get away with. Do what China is doing now to businesses and institution which present Taiwan as separate, just at a much higher intensity. I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of "getting along" or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas. Send the clear message that if you're Chinese by blood, what you do and what you say is necessarily tied to the collective interest of 1.4 billion people at home, which means that you must take responsibility even if you emigrate. I just learned that the guy leading activism against discrimination against Asian-Americans in US college admissions is actually a liberal who speaks highly of "freedom and democracy." He specifically wrote this in https://www.backchina.com/blog/336483/article-204672.html, and also that his family had difficulties with both the KMT in the 40s and the Maoist left during the Cultural Revolution.

    Do you have Weibo by the way? I just started one, with the same handle as here, you can easily find me.
    , @AquariusAnon
    Such values are actually NOT "Chinese values". They are in fact the results of Maoism. While Chinese society no longer subscribes to Maoism, this is the natural result of a somewhat successful "Year Zero" type revolution immediately followed by rapid economic growth.

    However, as China now solidly middle income and have a fighting chance to be a proper superpower, this means needing to cultivate the ability to interact with different cultures. This is imo the sole difference between the relative success of the British Empire versus the failure of the USSR, and the British Empire was probably fiercer.

    Arabs have no hope gaining any significant influence whatsoever: The only people who aren't disgusted by Arabs and their no-go zones are the most brainwashed of cucks. Once people have a similar opinion of the Chinese, there will be a grassroots pushback in various societies. Such anti-Chinese sentiment will be very difficult to overcome: Even a hardcore military occupation will only contain such sentiment temporarily, but at what cost both to China and the subject nation?

    As of now, China hasn't been doing well handling periphery already. To regain the trust of these territories, instead of doubling down, it needs to analyze how each society functions on its own, how to use that to China's advantage without interfering in their way of life, and how to earn the trust of their subjects, so essentially, soft power. Such gains in soft power can easily be backed by "hard power" aka military bases and economic dependence while causing little to no hostility with the subjects.

    Chinese tourism in its current form is an epic soft power projection fail overseas. It does nothing but cause resentment among both locals and other tourists, fueling an anti-Chinese movement.

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  114. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    I have not seen Spaniards show any affinity for Latin Americans or Mestizos from the US before.

     

    When I've experienced courses where there were Spanish, South Americans and Mexicans. All socially as a very similar group.

    There is a lot more culture compatibility between these nationalities. They watch same YouTubers, listen to same music, same attitude to studying, same catholic religion, and sound like they have the same jokes and feeling for humour.

    The most popular YouTubers Spanish watch, are mainly Latin Americans. There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain. And millions of Spanish in Latin America. All dating each other and intermarrying.

    You can even see in terms of politics - Spanish newspapers like El Pais are discussing Latin American politics in very heavy depth and subtlety (while US newspapers are never discussing Latin American politics, and if they are, a superficial analysis not less than in Russian newspapers describing this part of the world).


    I think this is very unusual. I personally can find them too shouty but they usually seem to get on the best with other nationalities.

     

    Maybe your are correct - I have less experience with Americans than almost any other nationalities. Few ones I have met, including related to work, seem friendly at first, and then cold.

    My impression is they are very polite and friendly, but then it is something incompatible in personalities. And so I don't know Americans personally.

    My brother worked in America for over a year and I don't think he has American friends. He has friends there from European nationalities.


    If you do not have solidarity (much lower level than political union) with

     

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking - there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    Do Japanese and Chinese have solidarity? Or even Indians and Pakistanis? Or Egyptians and Israelis?

    Japanese and Chinese look the same, but they don't have any solidarity on that basis.

    Ethnic solidarity, relies on sense "these are our people" - language and culture compatibility are an important condition involved. (If people don't react or socialize in the way you expect, then you have a sensation of being foreigners).


    hese programs are not based on European racial solidarity or even common European civilisation, but on meaningless ‘European values’; if they were, then they would probably be much more succesful (not that I think that that would be a good thing).
     
    But writing on brochure makes no difference. End result of EU, is that every European nationality is living, studying, and being mixed up with each other.

    On Erasmus programme, millions of students are doing exchanges with students in other European nationalities. EU surely increases mutual understanding between different cultures, but is there solidarity?

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently. However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    For example, Greek population is not behaving exactly like Germans. The incompatible outlooks on the world. Economical incompatibility of the eurozone, was itself expression that they are behaving differently (Germans paying tax and saving, Greeks not).

    To create nationalist solidarity between Greeks and Germans, would require Greeks starting to behave much more like Germans (i.e. cultural assimilation and reduction of culture differences).

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.

    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’. Europeans consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.

    However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.

    Did Europeans have fewer cultural distinctions in 1900, when they had much more racial solidarity? For instance, at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered.” I don’t see how this required the erasure of cultural distinctions.

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently

    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The heyday of what could be called white unity would be the era of imperialism and yet the Ottoman Empire was consistently buttressed by Dutch and later the British. The Chinese would be rather consistently supported by the Germans, who even built dreadnoughts for them and this was before formal Sino-German cooperation. And for that matter, Leo Tolstoy actually supported the Boxers against the Eight Nation Alliance.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory. Watching people try a failed concept over and over again is vaguely amusing.

    Who knows, maybe they'll get it right this time. Hope burns eternal.
    , @Dmitry

    at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered
     
    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it's very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    This doesn't imply there was some pan-European nationalism possible in this historical era (19th century). And obviously today, it seems not more likely (despite EU attempts to do this).

    Distinction between civilization and savages - is similar to what existed even in Roman era, and closer to imperialist than nationalistic (particularist) view.


    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’.
     
    So a Japanese person could feel a joint nationalism and solidarity with China, because of this similarity? It doesn't happen in reality. Similarity degrees between nationalities, is not creating joint nationalism.

    Maybe it is possible if you alienated them (Japanese and Chinese) from their home countries and language. For example, if they were both emigrants to America, and somehow categorized together based on their skin. In that case, "East Asian nationalism" becomes possible. Or if one nationality conquered, dominated and assimilated the other nationality, so there was no conflict between the two, and they became the same country.

    But within their own nations, Japanese and Chinese, will be rivals, if not enemies - and this is in some way healthy, as they are foreign to each other, with separate languages, nationalisms and cultures.

    White nationalism is normal for America because they are removed from their home context, assimilated to the same cultures for over 100 years, until all white people (with some few exceptions) became a single anglosaxon nationality, and now result is they don't feel like foreigners to each other.


    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

     

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I feel solidarity with nationalities I admire. But it does not create nationalism on this - as I'm still totally foreign person in Germany, Spain or England, and vice-versa. Maybe I'm less foreign in Germany, than in Colombia (where I could probably be kidnapped as a foreigner) - but it's a issue of degree, not of kind.

    I can't feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success - rather, the opposite.

    Nationalism requires to feel "this is our people". How do you feel "European or white nationalism" with foreigners, that don't understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them? (This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation).

    EU is trying to create a common European identity within its member countries. So German taxpayers can pay for other European nationalities, and not resent this, since they are all one European nationality.

    To reduce the sense of these being foreigners, requires reduction of cultural difference between European countries. The reality is assimilation of weaker nationalities to the stronger nationalities. If Greeks become more like Germans, then Germans will be happier to finance them.

    Although perhaps EU is slowly succeeding, with enough Erasmus trips, in indoctrinating a younger generation to believe they have a common identity across Europe. I have heard conversations of people (of EU countries), very enthusiastic for this project. But result of assimilating to common European identity, seems to me weakening of individual nations - something sad.

    , @Dmitry

    consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.
     
    And what excuses British and French to support the Ottoman Empire, in Crimean war?
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  115. gate666 says:
    @German_reader
    Easier said than done though, one has to reject all those concepts which have become dominant even in the mainstream "right" over the last 30-40 years like constitutional patriotism, nationhood defined by "values" (like tolerance for homosex) etc. It will also be necessary to break with the US with its creedal, highly ideological definition of nationhood and increasingly anti-white politics. It won't be easy to convince people of the necessity for such momentous changes.

    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Tolerance for gays is simply one of the many steps on the slippery slope that lead to the present degenerate state that is "modernity". One in a many long chain of "not that bads" that leads to purple haired spinsters destroying the nation. It isn't the proverbial camel's nose, that was probably when the English Parliament murdered their rightful King, but it's another hoof further inside the tent. I don't particularly care whether or not gays want to bugger each other in their own homes, but to preserve a functioning aliberal order, no such public exceptions must be given to deviant behavior.
    , @anonymous coward

    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.
     
    Except for the AIDS and the pedophilia, that is.
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  116. @Talha
    Mention of Wales and the dragon always reminds me of this scene:
    https://youtu.be/bLIsqYKDqY8?t=3m30s

    "...but for Wales?"

    Cinema at its best!

    Peace.

    LOL

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    That movie is a classic and has some great, witty lines:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PgJDtf7iops

    Peace.
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  117. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin
    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China's new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them. Their déclassé and "rustic" manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    This huge gap in values and behavior simply means Chinese travellers don't give a shit and the people who hate them are all the more infuriated because their none too subtle condescension is blithely ignored.

    To give you a visual metaphor for this phenomenon simply look at contemporary Western middle class tastes that run towards Scandinavian and Mid-century modern decor. In other words Ikea.

    https://info.ikea-usa.com/moving/living-room

    Contemporary Chinese tastes runs toward something that looks like a mix between a Casino lobby and Versaille.

    http://www.joseslifeetc.com/style-of-china-interior/wonderful-traditional-luxury-and-sexy-chinese-living-room-design-ideas/

    I'm not joking with you, that is how middle class Chinese prefer to decorate their homes, complete with the mirror finished refletive flooring.

    People in the Ikea camp look down on the people who like the latter as "tacky" or "unrefined". The people who prefer the latter dont care and like what they like, which is simply their idea of "European bling".

    Chinese art and design is rather gaudy to Europeans. Otoh Japanese achieved esthetic minimalism and balance that is very pleasing and acceptable to Europeans.

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  118. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin
    "Civilized" people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It's a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe "fuck you" attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.

    You got upset. Only this explains you talking nonsense. The C-word, right?

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  119. inertial says:
    @AaronB
    Why do you assume extroverts are not culturally created?

    I make no claims as to their origins. Although I suspect that this trait is at least partially inherited.

    Read More
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  120. @Duke of Qin
    "Civilized" people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It's a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe "fuck you" attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.

    I think Confucius would disagree.

    Rudeness is preferable versus weakness, but I think that it is possible to hold cultural confidence without having to be necessarily obnoxious. And understanding the normal of others shouldn’t demand identification with it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    I do not think it is possible. There is some quirk of human psychology, "squeaky wheel getting the grease" that seems to empower being the biggest ass hole around. It maybe that people just associate it with alpha like behavior. Just look at the poor behavior of blacks everywhere, yet everyone else is on tip toes around them. Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet. Hell look at Trump. He defies all social convention of his class, yet his followers have formed a cult of personality around him. Yes people do talk about such people behind their backs, but in public their power is absolute because of their willingness to break established norms.
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  121. @LondonBob
    The majority of white Americans can trace their first ancestor in America to a British colonist. Even Sarah Jessica Parker and Barack Obama can, as the core culture of America anglo ancestry is the base and therefore less noted these days. Of course WASPs have been heavily demonised since the sixties, but they are right to be envious.

    No way that’s true.

    All four of my grandparents were born in the USA, and some of my great-grandparents, and not one of them traced their ancestry to an English/Scottish/Welsh settler in the USA. They came directly from Italy, Germany, and Slovakia to the We know when they came, and they all came through Ellis Island. I know hundreds of people like this, but we can find large self-identification surveys too.

    (My own genetic test reported five percent English, but that predates either side of the family coming to the USA.)

    I think you’re underestimating how many of us white Americans trace our ancestry only to non-Brit immigrants to the USA, and from there of course to European peoples in Europe — Scandinavia, Western Europe, Southern Europe and Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe / Slavic — and not at all to any UK settler of America.

    By the way, without non-British whites in the USA, the British-settler-descended whites already would have been reduced to a minority countrywide long ago.

    When it comes to politics, economic competition, social influence, and simple physical defense, whites of every background in the USA must band together, whether the non-British European majority or the British-settler-descended minority.

    Read More
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  122. @Daniel Chieh
    I think Confucius would disagree.

    Rudeness is preferable versus weakness, but I think that it is possible to hold cultural confidence without having to be necessarily obnoxious. And understanding the normal of others shouldn't demand identification with it.

    I do not think it is possible. There is some quirk of human psychology, “squeaky wheel getting the grease” that seems to empower being the biggest ass hole around. It maybe that people just associate it with alpha like behavior. Just look at the poor behavior of blacks everywhere, yet everyone else is on tip toes around them. Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet. Hell look at Trump. He defies all social convention of his class, yet his followers have formed a cult of personality around him. Yes people do talk about such people behind their backs, but in public their power is absolute because of their willingness to break established norms.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Although I think they're too passive, the Japanese seem to manage to be largely polite while still not allowing ghetto people to overrun them. I think that it is possible to set rules and limits, violation of which requires prompt and swift address. Arguably, that's one of the central tenants of Legalism, after all. But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you're powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful. I think that isn't enough though - there does need to be some philosophy behind it.

    There's a reason why for all of its power, Legalism has usually lost out to Confucianism. A philosophy that ultimately is "people are horrible little bitches, yes, you too" isn't very inspiring even if it is really effective because sadly, Xunzi seems like he was right about human nature. An informal system of Legalism and a formal system of Confucianism seems to be what is serviceable for now.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify. And cull.
    , @gmachine1729
    LOL

    You are essentially 100% correct. By the way, want to help me keep https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/duke-of-qin-unz-review/ up to date? You can send me via email your high quality comments on here in reverse chronological order up to the first comment currently on that page, the indicator of how up to date it is.

    Back to your comment. 儒家的中庸is bullshit to me. Confucius held back Chinese civilization a lot with his overly rigid philosophy.

    Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet.
     
    Yes, there's something known as Stockholm syndrome, which manifests itself very well in the case of the contempt of HKers for mainland Chinese. And the servility Indians have to the Anglo system. Similarly, the worst soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army tended to be Korean and Taiwanese. 狗的本质之一就是表面上比主人还狠。If Chinese are to gain real status on the world stage, they'll have to reverse Stockholm syndrome. Basically towards all the West-loving liberal Chinese, beat the shit out of them, not give a damn about what they think, not give a damn about what the West thinks either. Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.
    , @gmachine1729
    So, I referred my friend to you, and he says "he should get a better platform for his thoughts than random blog comments" and "yea perhaps you two should start blogging together."
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  123. @DFH

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.
     
    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don't know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just 'visual similarity'. Europeans consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.


    However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.
     
    Did Europeans have fewer cultural distinctions in 1900, when they had much more racial solidarity? For instance, at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered.” I don't see how this required the erasure of cultural distinctions.

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently
     
    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don't know what this has to do with solidarity.

    The heyday of what could be called white unity would be the era of imperialism and yet the Ottoman Empire was consistently buttressed by Dutch and later the British. The Chinese would be rather consistently supported by the Germans, who even built dreadnoughts for them and this was before formal Sino-German cooperation. And for that matter, Leo Tolstoy actually supported the Boxers against the Eight Nation Alliance.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory. Watching people try a failed concept over and over again is vaguely amusing.

    Who knows, maybe they’ll get it right this time. Hope burns eternal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.
     
    Do you just mean that some subgroup is bound to defect in its own self-interest? That's surely the case. But then it's a reasonable question as to what is the minimal level of genetic or cultural similarity to provide reasonable confidence against defection.
    , @DFH

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.
     
    Any [cooperation] is doomed to fail by the very nature of game theory
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  124. @LondonBob
    If you think there were more Irish than Anglo in the 19th century then I cannot help you.

    SJP thought she was solely Jewish and German, but she actually had Puritan ancestors. Just those thirty odd thousand Puritan settlers had over 16 million ancestors by 1988.

    Just the people who came here from Italy probably had sixteen million descendants who are at least, say, a quarter Italian, by 1988.

    Many more descendents than that, for people who came to the USA from Germany.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Many of them are still 100% Italian.
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  125. @LondonBob
    The FDI flows between Britain and the US are enormous but I don't see much else worthwhile. Unlike with the ANZAC two, and to a lesser extent Canada, Canadians need to start playimg cricket and rugby more, there is not the common bond there at the personal level, and that is before we get to the radically changing US demographics. Personally I hope Brexit will see us taking an isolationist Swiss approach, our politicians won't like that though and seem to be vying to be either an EU or US vassal, stay close to Europe but building closer links with Australia, NZ etc again.

    Sorry, someone from formerly-great formerly-Britain is lecturing the USA about OUR worsening demographics? Grow that beard and bend over now, Limey, and “beat the rush”, as we say.

    Sad and avoidable as this suicide was for both our once-glorious nations, I’ll still take our mexicanized Brazil-style future America —with emerging Asian-white overclass in gated communities — over the african/Pakistani Muslim hellhole your country is fast becoming.

    We’ll be speaking Spanish and English and paying higher taxes for our massive Latino welfare class, plus paying more for security due to increased crime even in the suburbs. You’ll be dhimmis, explicitly second-class citizens, subject to sharia, paying the jizya, and bowing and scraping before your Muslim overlords (till the next generation or two sees mass conversion or the Muslims lose patience and just slaughter the rest of you).

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  126. @gate666
    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.

    Tolerance for gays is simply one of the many steps on the slippery slope that lead to the present degenerate state that is “modernity”. One in a many long chain of “not that bads” that leads to purple haired spinsters destroying the nation. It isn’t the proverbial camel’s nose, that was probably when the English Parliament murdered their rightful King, but it’s another hoof further inside the tent. I don’t particularly care whether or not gays want to bugger each other in their own homes, but to preserve a functioning aliberal order, no such public exceptions must be given to deviant behavior.

    Read More
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  127. @Duke of Qin
    I do not think it is possible. There is some quirk of human psychology, "squeaky wheel getting the grease" that seems to empower being the biggest ass hole around. It maybe that people just associate it with alpha like behavior. Just look at the poor behavior of blacks everywhere, yet everyone else is on tip toes around them. Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet. Hell look at Trump. He defies all social convention of his class, yet his followers have formed a cult of personality around him. Yes people do talk about such people behind their backs, but in public their power is absolute because of their willingness to break established norms.

    Although I think they’re too passive, the Japanese seem to manage to be largely polite while still not allowing ghetto people to overrun them. I think that it is possible to set rules and limits, violation of which requires prompt and swift address. Arguably, that’s one of the central tenants of Legalism, after all. But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful. I think that isn’t enough though – there does need to be some philosophy behind it.

    There’s a reason why for all of its power, Legalism has usually lost out to Confucianism. A philosophy that ultimately is “people are horrible little bitches, yes, you too” isn’t very inspiring even if it is really effective because sadly, Xunzi seems like he was right about human nature. An informal system of Legalism and a formal system of Confucianism seems to be what is serviceable for now.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify. And cull.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    Or they think you are a dick and a bully who is trying to hide weakness inside.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify.
     
    Exactly. I give people the benefit of doubt unless they give me reasons not to. And if genuinely threatened, I don’t hesitate for a second to use overwhelming force to terminate the threat. But that doesn’t mean I have to be a jackass about it or bully the innocent.
    , @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.
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  128. Twinkie says:
    @Duke of Qin
    "Civilized" people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It's a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe "fuck you" attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.

    The English – at the peak of their power – were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction… Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude

    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies

    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture

    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Being obnoxious ruthless pragmatists is still superior to submission to globohomo monoculture.

    While I don't agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to "civility" is acceptance of such "universal values" and "human rights" of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes - to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.

    , @inertial

    The English – at the peak of their power – were highly civilized and well-mannered.
     
    Some small proportion of them were well-mannered, sure.
    , @Duke of Qin
    The English didn't get their empire by being "civilized" and "well-mannered". They got it by being treacherous piratical scum.

    There was this science fiction short story I read once that I can no longer recall the details of or the author. Basically it dealt the continued perpetuation of life and civilization. One detail that did stick with me though was what kind of people are able to survive in adversity in a civilizational collapse and who couldn't. Rather than picking out the cultured peoples of high civilization to create a core to rebuild civilization, they chose basically bronze age or even stone age level inhabitants who were better suited. In the same way, my manner of thinking has come around to the conclusion that atavistic attitudes and crude behavior have their particular advantages.

    Honestly I don't even know why I bothered to respond to you in the first place. Guess it was because I hadn't left a comment for a week and felt like arguing. I can tolerate people who disagree with me, I can tolerate idiots, I can't tolerate people who deliberately misrepresent themselves. To be blunt bangzi, I've long suspected that you are nothing more than a liar. I can say honesty I don't believe a single word youve written about yourself aside from the fact that you are a bangzi; ranging from beating up black youths in street fights in New York, to being in the South Korean/Japanese special forces, to being an academic, and now with your considerable middle east experience. Youve come across as subtly dishonest in all your arguements especially when you make constant specious references to first hand experience that suffice to to say, stretch the limits of my credulity. I should probably copy&paste that internet meme that someone else did in responding to one of your earlier bouts of bullshit in another thread.
    , @AaronB

    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.
     
    This is an accurate description of where mainland Chinese are now psychologically. I say this without judgementalism.

    Everyone goes through this phase. Europe went through this phase too. As individuals, we also went through this phase when we were younger. Who among us honestly hasn't.

    The Chinese had a very tough 19th century - they would be superhuman if they didn't overreact and start lashing out. Trauma can induce regression to earlier childhood states.

    Let them go through a few decades of throwing various tantrums and fits and the better side of the Chinese character will eventually emerge.

    For the next few decades mainland China is lost to culture and civilization - they will work through their demons and grow up, realize that being militarily defeated by Europeans who had a technological edge isn't the enormous humiliation they imagine it is, and emerge from this rough patch.
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  129. @Twinkie

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.
     
    The English - at the peak of their power - were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction... Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude
     
    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies
     
    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture
     
    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.

    Being obnoxious ruthless pragmatists is still superior to submission to globohomo monoculture.

    While I don’t agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to “civility” is acceptance of such “universal values” and “human rights” of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes – to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    While I don’t agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to “civility” is acceptance of such “universal values” and “human rights” of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.
     
    So you prefer Somalia to Taiwan? I’m guessing you haven’t been to Mogadishu.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes – to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.
     
    People are often assholes, but the English found ways to moderate this to their credit and benefit, as well as to the benefit of many other societies.
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  130. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Although I think they're too passive, the Japanese seem to manage to be largely polite while still not allowing ghetto people to overrun them. I think that it is possible to set rules and limits, violation of which requires prompt and swift address. Arguably, that's one of the central tenants of Legalism, after all. But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you're powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful. I think that isn't enough though - there does need to be some philosophy behind it.

    There's a reason why for all of its power, Legalism has usually lost out to Confucianism. A philosophy that ultimately is "people are horrible little bitches, yes, you too" isn't very inspiring even if it is really effective because sadly, Xunzi seems like he was right about human nature. An informal system of Legalism and a formal system of Confucianism seems to be what is serviceable for now.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify. And cull.

    But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.

    Or they think you are a dick and a bully who is trying to hide weakness inside.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify.

    Exactly. I give people the benefit of doubt unless they give me reasons not to. And if genuinely threatened, I don’t hesitate for a second to use overwhelming force to terminate the threat. But that doesn’t mean I have to be a jackass about it or bully the innocent.

    Read More
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  131. inertial says:
    @Twinkie

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.
     
    The English - at the peak of their power - were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction... Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude
     
    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies
     
    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture
     
    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.

    The English – at the peak of their power – were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Some small proportion of them were well-mannered, sure.

    Read More
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  132. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Being obnoxious ruthless pragmatists is still superior to submission to globohomo monoculture.

    While I don't agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to "civility" is acceptance of such "universal values" and "human rights" of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes - to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.

    While I don’t agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to “civility” is acceptance of such “universal values” and “human rights” of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.

    So you prefer Somalia to Taiwan? I’m guessing you haven’t been to Mogadishu.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes – to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.

    People are often assholes, but the English found ways to moderate this to their credit and benefit, as well as to the benefit of many other societies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I have been to Cameroon. And yes, if those are the only two choices. Death to poz, long live BAP.
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  133. @Twinkie

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.
     
    The English - at the peak of their power - were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction... Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude
     
    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies
     
    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture
     
    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.

    The English didn’t get their empire by being “civilized” and “well-mannered”. They got it by being treacherous piratical scum.

    There was this science fiction short story I read once that I can no longer recall the details of or the author. Basically it dealt the continued perpetuation of life and civilization. One detail that did stick with me though was what kind of people are able to survive in adversity in a civilizational collapse and who couldn’t. Rather than picking out the cultured peoples of high civilization to create a core to rebuild civilization, they chose basically bronze age or even stone age level inhabitants who were better suited. In the same way, my manner of thinking has come around to the conclusion that atavistic attitudes and crude behavior have their particular advantages.

    Honestly I don’t even know why I bothered to respond to you in the first place. Guess it was because I hadn’t left a comment for a week and felt like arguing. I can tolerate people who disagree with me, I can tolerate idiots, I can’t tolerate people who deliberately misrepresent themselves. To be blunt bangzi, I’ve long suspected that you are nothing more than a liar. I can say honesty I don’t believe a single word youve written about yourself aside from the fact that you are a bangzi; ranging from beating up black youths in street fights in New York, to being in the South Korean/Japanese special forces, to being an academic, and now with your considerable middle east experience. Youve come across as subtly dishonest in all your arguements especially when you make constant specious references to first hand experience that suffice to to say, stretch the limits of my credulity. I should probably copy&paste that internet meme that someone else did in responding to one of your earlier bouts of bullshit in another thread.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    To be blunt bangzi, I’ve long suspected that you are nothing more than a liar. I can say honesty I don’t believe a single word youve written about yourself aside from the fact that you are a bangzi; ranging from beating up black youths in street fights in New York, to being in the South Korean/Japanese special forces, to being an academic, and now with your considerable middle east experience. Youve come across as subtly dishonest in all your arguements especially when you make constant specious references to first hand experience that suffice to to say, stretch the limits of my credulity. I should probably copy&paste that internet meme that someone else did in responding to one of your earlier bouts of bullshit in another thread.
     
    Your description of what I wrote isn’t quite accurate in so many ways, but let’s set that aside for a moment.

    Why, if you distrust everything I wrote, do you think that I am a “bangzi,” a derogatory term for Koreans? And what’s with the juvenile name-calling?

    Ask me anything about Judo or Brazilian Jiujitsu. Ask me about what open air market is like in Jerusalem. Ask me about how prevalent English-speakers are in Jerusalem vs. Tel Aviv. Or El Al’s security protocols regarding passengers. Ask me about the Browning Hipower I carried in the Middle East.

    Your problem is that you are strutting online while sitting in mom’s basement and think that everyone else is a poser too. I’m not one. Try to stick to the substance of the argument.
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  134. @Twinkie

    While I don’t agree with everything Duke says, becoming Taiwan or South Korea is not the way forward. If submission to “civility” is acceptance of such “universal values” and “human rights” of ever expanding creep and ridiculousness, then barbarity should be prized.
     
    So you prefer Somalia to Taiwan? I’m guessing you haven’t been to Mogadishu.

    Also, the English were often enough assholes – to themselves and others. Orwell wrote quite a bit about it.
     
    People are often assholes, but the English found ways to moderate this to their credit and benefit, as well as to the benefit of many other societies.

    I have been to Cameroon. And yes, if those are the only two choices. Death to poz, long live BAP.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    So between Cameroon and Taiwan, you’d choose the former. Your family is lucky to have someone whose revealed preferences and stated ones do not match.
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  135. @Duke of Qin
    I do not think it is possible. There is some quirk of human psychology, "squeaky wheel getting the grease" that seems to empower being the biggest ass hole around. It maybe that people just associate it with alpha like behavior. Just look at the poor behavior of blacks everywhere, yet everyone else is on tip toes around them. Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet. Hell look at Trump. He defies all social convention of his class, yet his followers have formed a cult of personality around him. Yes people do talk about such people behind their backs, but in public their power is absolute because of their willingness to break established norms.

    LOL

    You are essentially 100% correct. By the way, want to help me keep https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/duke-of-qin-unz-review/ up to date? You can send me via email your high quality comments on here in reverse chronological order up to the first comment currently on that page, the indicator of how up to date it is.

    Back to your comment. 儒家的中庸is bullshit to me. Confucius held back Chinese civilization a lot with his overly rigid philosophy.

    Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet.

    Yes, there’s something known as Stockholm syndrome, which manifests itself very well in the case of the contempt of HKers for mainland Chinese. And the servility Indians have to the Anglo system. Similarly, the worst soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army tended to be Korean and Taiwanese. 狗的本质之一就是表面上比主人还狠。If Chinese are to gain real status on the world stage, they’ll have to reverse Stockholm syndrome. Basically towards all the West-loving liberal Chinese, beat the shit out of them, not give a damn about what they think, not give a damn about what the West thinks either. Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.
     
    Though it helped them none, the Melians were right about what would happen to Athens.

    Don’t forget that the Romans almost always went to war with an equal number of allies, allies that largely stood on its side even in the dark days of Hannibalic invasion (excepting, of course, the Capuans). One doesn’t acquire allies like that by “not giving a damn.”
    , @Daniel Chieh
    The places where Japan committed atrocities in, such as Korea, were not people who were enamored of them so I think its quite inaccurate to state that random exercise of violence always engenders respect. Fondness for Japan is a more modern vehicle that comes from their genuinely impressive cultural output, and in such, memories are short because self-promotion and self-confidence in pretty packages is really quite effective.
    , @utu

    Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.
     
    Dreams of impotent wanker.
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  136. Twinkie says:
    @gmachine1729
    LOL

    You are essentially 100% correct. By the way, want to help me keep https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/duke-of-qin-unz-review/ up to date? You can send me via email your high quality comments on here in reverse chronological order up to the first comment currently on that page, the indicator of how up to date it is.

    Back to your comment. 儒家的中庸is bullshit to me. Confucius held back Chinese civilization a lot with his overly rigid philosophy.

    Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet.
     
    Yes, there's something known as Stockholm syndrome, which manifests itself very well in the case of the contempt of HKers for mainland Chinese. And the servility Indians have to the Anglo system. Similarly, the worst soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army tended to be Korean and Taiwanese. 狗的本质之一就是表面上比主人还狠。If Chinese are to gain real status on the world stage, they'll have to reverse Stockholm syndrome. Basically towards all the West-loving liberal Chinese, beat the shit out of them, not give a damn about what they think, not give a damn about what the West thinks either. Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    Though it helped them none, the Melians were right about what would happen to Athens.

    Don’t forget that the Romans almost always went to war with an equal number of allies, allies that largely stood on its side even in the dark days of Hannibalic invasion (excepting, of course, the Capuans). One doesn’t acquire allies like that by “not giving a damn.”

    Read More
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  137. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I have been to Cameroon. And yes, if those are the only two choices. Death to poz, long live BAP.

    So between Cameroon and Taiwan, you’d choose the former. Your family is lucky to have someone whose revealed preferences and stated ones do not match.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    If those were the only two choices.

    Fortunately, that is not the case.
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  138. Dmitry says:
    @iffen
    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain.

    Really?

    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain, with Spanish citizenship. I wonder if it is even undercounted, because of their citizenship is not Latin American (so their children are just counted as Spanish).

    http://www.lacelosia.com/la-cepan/

    So if says above 2,4 million Latin American immigrants in Spain – but does it include all the ones with Spanish citizenship, and their children?

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Count me as partially informed now. The info that I read stated that after two years they are no longer counted as immigrants. Just a bit of ignorance on my part not knowing that the numbers were in the hundreds of thousands to millions range.
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  139. @Twinkie
    So between Cameroon and Taiwan, you’d choose the former. Your family is lucky to have someone whose revealed preferences and stated ones do not match.

    If those were the only two choices.

    Fortunately, that is not the case.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie
    So the U.S. is less gay-loving than Taiwan? You really are going to tell me that you’d rather raise your kid in Cameroon (which is far more civilized - and less barbarous - than Somalia) than in Taiwan? And is your fair-skinned wife on board with this African contingency plan?
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  140. Matra says:
    @Lars Porsena
    I honestly wonder how many Anglos are even in this country. Chicago is the city with the most Poles in the world, more than any Polish city in Poland. If you throw a ball over your shoulder it will probably hit an Italian. We have been importing immigrants from all over Europe for a good century or two. And massive amounts of the original european stock even before that was Scottish, Irish, and German (as well as some Dutch and some Scandinavian). The upper midwest is heavily central european and scandinavian. And a fair amount of French in some of the territories it would later absorb. Louisiana is still heavily of French heritage among it's white population and they were all the way up the Mississippi to Chicago. There are probably more Irish in the US than anglo-saxons, certainly way more Irish in the US than their are in the whole of Ireland.

    Why does everyone think it's all English? You guys are falling for anglo propaganda. US whites all speak english but that doesn't mean they are WASPs. According to the wikipedia article on English Americans, in the first US census in 1790 English were 47.5% of the US population and already only 60.9% of the US white population. In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious. But assuming that's true the US is 8% English and 92% Not English. Even assuming 40 million they would not be a majority of whites or even a quarter of all whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American

    There is also an article on white american

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

    Says the total white population is 250 million and the largest white ethnicities in the US are:

    German Americans (16.5%), Irish Americans (11.9%), English Americans (9.2%), Italian Americans (5.8%), French Americans (4%), Polish Americans (3%), Scottish Americans (1.9%), Scotch-Irish Americans (1.7%), Dutch Americans (1.6%), Norwegian Americans (1.5%), and Swedish Americans (1.4%).[15][16][17] However, the English Americans and British Americans demography is considered a serious under-count as the stock tend to self-report and identify as simply "Americans" (6.9%)
     
    So even if you added all of the 6.9% "American" to the 9.2% English you only get 16.1% which is still less than the number of ethnic Germans.

    In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious.

    This is based on subjective self-reporting. The English ancestry is much further back in a typical American’s history so it isn’t as well remembered as your Irish or German great-grandfather. Bias against ‘bland’, ‘vanilla’, ‘oppressive’ Wasps in the Ellis Islander-dominated media also leads to more vibrant non-Anglo ancestry being self-reported.

    And, no, the Irish did not outnumber the English at any time in the 1800s. If you count the Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots), who are much closer to the English than they are to the native Irish, as exclusively Irish you can maybe get the numbers close. However, given that the Scotch-Irish mostly intermarried with English (and Scottish Lowland) Protestant Americans right up until at least the early 20th century their descendants would be much more Anglo/ Waspy than Irish.

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    • Replies: @songbird
    I think that the people of Britain and Ireland are quite similar ethnically, esp. compared to the broader population movements today.

    You have the bronze age base which is practically the same. There was about >90% replacement of the neolithic pop on either island. After that there are the Germanic invasions of Britain, but the Anglo-Saxons are close to the same people - same expansion - with maybe 3,000 years or so of drift and local German natural selection. Then the Normans who invaded both places - again a similar people. Then a bit of admixture from the downward mobility of the Protestant Ascendancy, the poor relations of which who often surprisingly became Catholics, despite them being a persecuted group.

    I know a married couple with two red-haired children. The father is English and has redhair. The mother is Irish and has a redhaired father. The children in no way appear like mischlings.

    Of course, there are cultural differences, and that used to be the case in America too, when Catholics would more often go to parochial schools. But, at base, even with their differences, there used to be an American identity and a core American culture - though I'd say it is dead as a national thing - replaced with a Hollywood/gobalist identity.
    , @Lars Porsena
    Have none of you heard of the Potato Famine?
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  141. Twinkie says:
    @Duke of Qin
    The English didn't get their empire by being "civilized" and "well-mannered". They got it by being treacherous piratical scum.

    There was this science fiction short story I read once that I can no longer recall the details of or the author. Basically it dealt the continued perpetuation of life and civilization. One detail that did stick with me though was what kind of people are able to survive in adversity in a civilizational collapse and who couldn't. Rather than picking out the cultured peoples of high civilization to create a core to rebuild civilization, they chose basically bronze age or even stone age level inhabitants who were better suited. In the same way, my manner of thinking has come around to the conclusion that atavistic attitudes and crude behavior have their particular advantages.

    Honestly I don't even know why I bothered to respond to you in the first place. Guess it was because I hadn't left a comment for a week and felt like arguing. I can tolerate people who disagree with me, I can tolerate idiots, I can't tolerate people who deliberately misrepresent themselves. To be blunt bangzi, I've long suspected that you are nothing more than a liar. I can say honesty I don't believe a single word youve written about yourself aside from the fact that you are a bangzi; ranging from beating up black youths in street fights in New York, to being in the South Korean/Japanese special forces, to being an academic, and now with your considerable middle east experience. Youve come across as subtly dishonest in all your arguements especially when you make constant specious references to first hand experience that suffice to to say, stretch the limits of my credulity. I should probably copy&paste that internet meme that someone else did in responding to one of your earlier bouts of bullshit in another thread.

    To be blunt bangzi, I’ve long suspected that you are nothing more than a liar. I can say honesty I don’t believe a single word youve written about yourself aside from the fact that you are a bangzi; ranging from beating up black youths in street fights in New York, to being in the South Korean/Japanese special forces, to being an academic, and now with your considerable middle east experience. Youve come across as subtly dishonest in all your arguements especially when you make constant specious references to first hand experience that suffice to to say, stretch the limits of my credulity. I should probably copy&paste that internet meme that someone else did in responding to one of your earlier bouts of bullshit in another thread.

    Your description of what I wrote isn’t quite accurate in so many ways, but let’s set that aside for a moment.

    Why, if you distrust everything I wrote, do you think that I am a “bangzi,” a derogatory term for Koreans? And what’s with the juvenile name-calling?

    Ask me anything about Judo or Brazilian Jiujitsu. Ask me about what open air market is like in Jerusalem. Ask me about how prevalent English-speakers are in Jerusalem vs. Tel Aviv. Or El Al’s security protocols regarding passengers. Ask me about the Browning Hipower I carried in the Middle East.

    Your problem is that you are strutting online while sitting in mom’s basement and think that everyone else is a poser too. I’m not one. Try to stick to the substance of the argument.

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  142. @Duke of Qin
    "Civilized" people get ethnically cleansed. I want the Chinese to be proud Chinese, not ersatz yellow Canadians. You know what happens to the considerate Chinaman? Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It's a recipe for racial extinction. Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture one place means submission in other places too. Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe "fuck you" attitude and force others to accommodate themselves to our behavior than the inverse. Works for the Arabs and Israelies, the Chinese should copy them.

    YES, YES, YES!!!!

    Especially now that China has the hard power and money to back it up, with the trend there even more to her favor. I fucking hate the liberal Chinese cucks in America who might engage in activism but dare not challenge American social and political norms, which is at the root of the problem. Chinese should feel none the worse for aggressively promoting the Chinese historical and political narrative internationally. If people don’t like it, too bad. Use your economic power to punish them accordingly as much as you can get away with. Do what China is doing now to businesses and institution which present Taiwan as separate, just at a much higher intensity. I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of “getting along” or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas. Send the clear message that if you’re Chinese by blood, what you do and what you say is necessarily tied to the collective interest of 1.4 billion people at home, which means that you must take responsibility even if you emigrate. I just learned that the guy leading activism against discrimination against Asian-Americans in US college admissions is actually a liberal who speaks highly of “freedom and democracy.” He specifically wrote this in https://www.backchina.com/blog/336483/article-204672.html, and also that his family had difficulties with both the KMT in the 40s and the Maoist left during the Cultural Revolution.

    Do you have Weibo by the way? I just started one, with the same handle as here, you can easily find me.

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    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Sorry no weibo nor wechat. I don't use any social media period. I value my privacy so like the itinerant scholars of yore, I wander here and there dispensing my thoughts occasionally.

    Well actually I have to correct myself, I do have an account on YouTube that was started as another online backup for my collection of taolibei competition videos that I also kept stored on BaiduYun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JxMsvQqpmY

    One of my favourite dancers. And Daniel has the cheek to say I advocate barbarism. Beauty can only be defended by savagery, just because I prioritize survival doesn't mean I eschew everything else.
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  143. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    If those were the only two choices.

    Fortunately, that is not the case.

    So the U.S. is less gay-loving than Taiwan? You really are going to tell me that you’d rather raise your kid in Cameroon (which is far more civilized – and less barbarous – than Somalia) than in Taiwan? And is your fair-skinned wife on board with this African contingency plan?

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    She's quite fine with Hong Kong, thanks.
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  144. @Twinkie
    So the U.S. is less gay-loving than Taiwan? You really are going to tell me that you’d rather raise your kid in Cameroon (which is far more civilized - and less barbarous - than Somalia) than in Taiwan? And is your fair-skinned wife on board with this African contingency plan?

    She’s quite fine with Hong Kong, thanks.

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  145. @gmachine1729
    LOL

    You are essentially 100% correct. By the way, want to help me keep https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/duke-of-qin-unz-review/ up to date? You can send me via email your high quality comments on here in reverse chronological order up to the first comment currently on that page, the indicator of how up to date it is.

    Back to your comment. 儒家的中庸is bullshit to me. Confucius held back Chinese civilization a lot with his overly rigid philosophy.

    Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet.
     
    Yes, there's something known as Stockholm syndrome, which manifests itself very well in the case of the contempt of HKers for mainland Chinese. And the servility Indians have to the Anglo system. Similarly, the worst soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army tended to be Korean and Taiwanese. 狗的本质之一就是表面上比主人还狠。If Chinese are to gain real status on the world stage, they'll have to reverse Stockholm syndrome. Basically towards all the West-loving liberal Chinese, beat the shit out of them, not give a damn about what they think, not give a damn about what the West thinks either. Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    The places where Japan committed atrocities in, such as Korea, were not people who were enamored of them so I think its quite inaccurate to state that random exercise of violence always engenders respect. Fondness for Japan is a more modern vehicle that comes from their genuinely impressive cultural output, and in such, memories are short because self-promotion and self-confidence in pretty packages is really quite effective.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I think its quite inaccurate to state that random exercise of violence always engenders respect.
     
    Correct. Indeed, the Korean liberation movement often targeted Japanese moderates (that is to say, those Japanese colonial officials who advocated for moderate colonial policies) for assassinations, because they rightly feared the end result of such policies. It served them to have Japanese overlords who were oppressive and capricious in their exercise of power.*

    People put up with arbitrary and unjust exercise of power for so long, but resentment builds over time, and this - more often than not - erupts eventually to the detriment of all involved. And as Martin van Creveld said, in a long war, the weak often beats the strong.

    *That’s certainly what I would do, were I to run an insurgency - kill the reasonable overlords, so the hardliners would retaliate against the general population and enlarge the sea in which the guerilla fish swims.
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  146. Talha says:
    @Philip Owen
    LOL

    That movie is a classic and has some great, witty lines:

    Peace.

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  147. AaronB says:
    @Twinkie

    “Civilized” people get ethnically cleansed.
     
    The English - at the peak of their power - were highly civilized and well-mannered.

    Other people walk all over him and take advantage of them at every turn and they are too meek to say a word otherwise. It’s a recipe for racial extinction... Better by far for the Chinese to retain the blithe “fuck you” attitude
     
    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    Works for the Arabs and Israelies
     
    No, it doesn’t, and I spent considerable amount of time in Israel and Arab countries.

    Submission to the behavioral norms of globo-homo-Amero culture
     
    I don’t know what you mean by these slogans, but forming queues, being considerate to others in public, and behaving in gentlemanly and lady-like manner make life pleasant and agreeable for all.

    Meanwhile, cutting lines wildly, being loud and obnoxious, and ignoring and driving over a child make life low quality for all.

    This is a weak and helpless teenager’s misunderstanding of what it means to be strong and confident.

    This is an accurate description of where mainland Chinese are now psychologically. I say this without judgementalism.

    Everyone goes through this phase. Europe went through this phase too. As individuals, we also went through this phase when we were younger. Who among us honestly hasn’t.

    The Chinese had a very tough 19th century – they would be superhuman if they didn’t overreact and start lashing out. Trauma can induce regression to earlier childhood states.

    Let them go through a few decades of throwing various tantrums and fits and the better side of the Chinese character will eventually emerge.

    For the next few decades mainland China is lost to culture and civilization – they will work through their demons and grow up, realize that being militarily defeated by Europeans who had a technological edge isn’t the enormous humiliation they imagine it is, and emerge from this rough patch.

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  148. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.
     
    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don't know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just 'visual similarity'. Europeans consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.


    However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.
     
    Did Europeans have fewer cultural distinctions in 1900, when they had much more racial solidarity? For instance, at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered.” I don't see how this required the erasure of cultural distinctions.

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently
     
    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don't know what this has to do with solidarity.

    at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered

    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it’s very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    This doesn’t imply there was some pan-European nationalism possible in this historical era (19th century). And obviously today, it seems not more likely (despite EU attempts to do this).

    Distinction between civilization and savages – is similar to what existed even in Roman era, and closer to imperialist than nationalistic (particularist) view.

    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’.

    So a Japanese person could feel a joint nationalism and solidarity with China, because of this similarity? It doesn’t happen in reality. Similarity degrees between nationalities, is not creating joint nationalism.

    Maybe it is possible if you alienated them (Japanese and Chinese) from their home countries and language. For example, if they were both emigrants to America, and somehow categorized together based on their skin. In that case, “East Asian nationalism” becomes possible. Or if one nationality conquered, dominated and assimilated the other nationality, so there was no conflict between the two, and they became the same country.

    But within their own nations, Japanese and Chinese, will be rivals, if not enemies – and this is in some way healthy, as they are foreign to each other, with separate languages, nationalisms and cultures.

    White nationalism is normal for America because they are removed from their home context, assimilated to the same cultures for over 100 years, until all white people (with some few exceptions) became a single anglosaxon nationality, and now result is they don’t feel like foreigners to each other.

    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I feel solidarity with nationalities I admire. But it does not create nationalism on this – as I’m still totally foreign person in Germany, Spain or England, and vice-versa. Maybe I’m less foreign in Germany, than in Colombia (where I could probably be kidnapped as a foreigner) – but it’s a issue of degree, not of kind.

    I can’t feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success – rather, the opposite.

    Nationalism requires to feel “this is our people”. How do you feel “European or white nationalism” with foreigners, that don’t understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them? (This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation).

    EU is trying to create a common European identity within its member countries. So German taxpayers can pay for other European nationalities, and not resent this, since they are all one European nationality.

    To reduce the sense of these being foreigners, requires reduction of cultural difference between European countries. The reality is assimilation of weaker nationalities to the stronger nationalities. If Greeks become more like Germans, then Germans will be happier to finance them.

    Although perhaps EU is slowly succeeding, with enough Erasmus trips, in indoctrinating a younger generation to believe they have a common identity across Europe. I have heard conversations of people (of EU countries), very enthusiastic for this project. But result of assimilating to common European identity, seems to me weakening of individual nations – something sad.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    There is a common history within Europe, but 19th century nationalist movement in Europe, were from opposite of this common heritage. Nationalism was a reaction, to recognizing uniqueness of your own culture, not of common culture that is shared amongst foreign countries. Historically it was mainly smaller nations in rebellion to assimilation and brazen domination by stronger nationalities.

    In 19th century Britain, they are dominating a world, and imperialism is the most important political trend, and nationalism was of little relevance in a history of England in this era.

    In Russia itself - very similar to England - , pan-slavism (as opposed to slavophiles) was a kind of imperial strategy, to use nationalism for imperialistic achievements - to liberate all these little nations from rule by foreigners, which were mainly Germans. And many writers are basing around the important of Orthodox Church. The desire was to create a new political and religious bloc, under a benevolent patronage of Russia (it is imperialism, not nationalism).

    As a trend, nationalism was most important in weaker countries - in Italy or Germany (disunified countries), or nationalities without independent country (like Polish or Czechs). Concept of pan-European nationalism in 19th century - it would have seemed a contradiction of itself, as nationalism movements were rebeliing precisely against pan-European conglomerations.

    , @iffen
    In that case, “East Asian nationalism” becomes possible.

    Not if this comment thread is any sort of guide.
    , @DFH

    And what excuses British and French to support the Ottoman Empire, in Crimean war?
     
    British public opinion was anti-Russian it is true, but also always supported the people of the Balkans against the Turks, so strongly that Britain intervened to help liberate the Greeks and that it later led to the fall of the pro-Ottoman Jewish government in 1880.

    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it’s very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.
     
    It was against the Chinese.

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

     

    I was only talking about solidarity previously. To clarify I do not think that trying to merge Europeans into a single nation or political entity is desirable, but I do not think that having solidarity with other Europeans requires it.

    I can’t feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success – rather, the opposite.
     

    I think that most Europeans naturally feel proud or happy thinking about European victories over non-Europeans like Thermopylae, Chalons, Tours, Lepanto or Vienna.

    How do you feel “European or white nationalism” with foreigners, that don’t understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them?
     
    Obviously people get on better with people from the same nationality, but beyond that people get on better with people from the same racial group. You only need to watch groups of blacks, asians and whites, even from different countries, self-segregate.

    This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation
     
    There was plenty of racial solidarity against non-Europeans in 1900 without this.

    nationalism was of little relevance in a history of England in this era
     
    ??????????? It was one of the most nationalistic societies I can think of. You only need to read contemporary writings to see this. It is true that there was no movement or ideology self-consciously called 'British nationalism', but this is only because it was so hegemonic and pervasive.
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  149. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered
     
    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it's very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    This doesn't imply there was some pan-European nationalism possible in this historical era (19th century). And obviously today, it seems not more likely (despite EU attempts to do this).

    Distinction between civilization and savages - is similar to what existed even in Roman era, and closer to imperialist than nationalistic (particularist) view.


    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’.
     
    So a Japanese person could feel a joint nationalism and solidarity with China, because of this similarity? It doesn't happen in reality. Similarity degrees between nationalities, is not creating joint nationalism.

    Maybe it is possible if you alienated them (Japanese and Chinese) from their home countries and language. For example, if they were both emigrants to America, and somehow categorized together based on their skin. In that case, "East Asian nationalism" becomes possible. Or if one nationality conquered, dominated and assimilated the other nationality, so there was no conflict between the two, and they became the same country.

    But within their own nations, Japanese and Chinese, will be rivals, if not enemies - and this is in some way healthy, as they are foreign to each other, with separate languages, nationalisms and cultures.

    White nationalism is normal for America because they are removed from their home context, assimilated to the same cultures for over 100 years, until all white people (with some few exceptions) became a single anglosaxon nationality, and now result is they don't feel like foreigners to each other.


    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

     

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I feel solidarity with nationalities I admire. But it does not create nationalism on this - as I'm still totally foreign person in Germany, Spain or England, and vice-versa. Maybe I'm less foreign in Germany, than in Colombia (where I could probably be kidnapped as a foreigner) - but it's a issue of degree, not of kind.

    I can't feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success - rather, the opposite.

    Nationalism requires to feel "this is our people". How do you feel "European or white nationalism" with foreigners, that don't understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them? (This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation).

    EU is trying to create a common European identity within its member countries. So German taxpayers can pay for other European nationalities, and not resent this, since they are all one European nationality.

    To reduce the sense of these being foreigners, requires reduction of cultural difference between European countries. The reality is assimilation of weaker nationalities to the stronger nationalities. If Greeks become more like Germans, then Germans will be happier to finance them.

    Although perhaps EU is slowly succeeding, with enough Erasmus trips, in indoctrinating a younger generation to believe they have a common identity across Europe. I have heard conversations of people (of EU countries), very enthusiastic for this project. But result of assimilating to common European identity, seems to me weakening of individual nations - something sad.

    There is a common history within Europe, but 19th century nationalist movement in Europe, were from opposite of this common heritage. Nationalism was a reaction, to recognizing uniqueness of your own culture, not of common culture that is shared amongst foreign countries. Historically it was mainly smaller nations in rebellion to assimilation and brazen domination by stronger nationalities.

    In 19th century Britain, they are dominating a world, and imperialism is the most important political trend, and nationalism was of little relevance in a history of England in this era.

    In Russia itself – very similar to England – , pan-slavism (as opposed to slavophiles) was a kind of imperial strategy, to use nationalism for imperialistic achievements – to liberate all these little nations from rule by foreigners, which were mainly Germans. And many writers are basing around the important of Orthodox Church. The desire was to create a new political and religious bloc, under a benevolent patronage of Russia (it is imperialism, not nationalism).

    As a trend, nationalism was most important in weaker countries – in Italy or Germany (disunified countries), or nationalities without independent country (like Polish or Czechs). Concept of pan-European nationalism in 19th century – it would have seemed a contradiction of itself, as nationalism movements were rebeliing precisely against pan-European conglomerations.

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  150. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The places where Japan committed atrocities in, such as Korea, were not people who were enamored of them so I think its quite inaccurate to state that random exercise of violence always engenders respect. Fondness for Japan is a more modern vehicle that comes from their genuinely impressive cultural output, and in such, memories are short because self-promotion and self-confidence in pretty packages is really quite effective.

    I think its quite inaccurate to state that random exercise of violence always engenders respect.

    Correct. Indeed, the Korean liberation movement often targeted Japanese moderates (that is to say, those Japanese colonial officials who advocated for moderate colonial policies) for assassinations, because they rightly feared the end result of such policies. It served them to have Japanese overlords who were oppressive and capricious in their exercise of power.*

    People put up with arbitrary and unjust exercise of power for so long, but resentment builds over time, and this – more often than not – erupts eventually to the detriment of all involved. And as Martin van Creveld said, in a long war, the weak often beats the strong.

    *That’s certainly what I would do, were I to run an insurgency – kill the reasonable overlords, so the hardliners would retaliate against the general population and enlarge the sea in which the guerilla fish swims.

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  151. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    But with different culture, languages, and ways of thinking – there is not usually much solidarity, even when there is visual similarity.
     
    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don't know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just 'visual similarity'. Europeans consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.


    However, it seems greater solidarity is only possible by erasing cultural distinctions.
     
    Did Europeans have fewer cultural distinctions in 1900, when they had much more racial solidarity? For instance, at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered.” I don't see how this required the erasure of cultural distinctions.

    If there exists potential for nationalist solidarity, then EU would be working a lot better than it is currently
     
    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don't know what this has to do with solidarity.

    consistently show solidarity with one another throughout history dealing with non-Europeans.

    And what excuses British and French to support the Ottoman Empire, in Crimean war?

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    • Agree: RadicalCenter
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  152. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Although I think they're too passive, the Japanese seem to manage to be largely polite while still not allowing ghetto people to overrun them. I think that it is possible to set rules and limits, violation of which requires prompt and swift address. Arguably, that's one of the central tenants of Legalism, after all. But yes, alpha behavior is an interesting thing about legitimacy through violation of norms. If you can break the norms, it proves that you're powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful. I think that isn't enough though - there does need to be some philosophy behind it.

    There's a reason why for all of its power, Legalism has usually lost out to Confucianism. A philosophy that ultimately is "people are horrible little bitches, yes, you too" isn't very inspiring even if it is really effective because sadly, Xunzi seems like he was right about human nature. An informal system of Legalism and a formal system of Confucianism seems to be what is serviceable for now.

    Hope for the best in people, but verify. And cull.

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status – a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect – it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor – because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha – for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon – did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking – although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn’t allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves – as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China’s relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials – it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it – that’s the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren’t an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere – you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again – not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

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    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

     

    Trust me, I think that's dumb.

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that's when it actually engenders respect.

    I think that people just have a very strong "just world" hypothesis; and when the people seem unjust but are rewarded, then they update their beliefs and mental rules so that its a just world once again. Not everyone, but enough.

    I tend to try to live up to Confucian ideals, so obviously boorishness is not what I think should be esteemed. But assuming that the only other option is to go full poz, then some level of chaos still has more vitality and thymos. I think that such contrast is not practical, though, and societal governance in practice is much more about compromise and accepting certain sliding slopes: flying is falling without hitting the ground.
    , @Hyperborean
    I'm surprised, this is actually insightful. Why can't you be this lucid all the time?
    , @Twinkie

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status – a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect – it is automatically granted.
     
    Yes.

    Why do so many young people equate thuggery with “alpha-ness”? And why all this obsession with being an an Alpha? It seems to me that it’s almost always the physically weak, socially awkward males who seem to obsess with this concept.

    I’ve trained dogs for a long time, and I can tell you firsthand that dogs may fear a capriciously violent person, but they won’t respect and follow such an unstable leader for long. Being an apha dog is not about being vicious - there is sometimes a need for that, yes - but mostly it’s about setting a good example and a firm, consistent, stable vibe through the whole pack, keeping a good order where everyone is fed reasonably well and free from conflict.

    And crucially it is sacrifice. Being a good leader means that you have stay on watch while others frolick and play and be ready confront threats first, putting one’s life on the line for the rest of the pack. That’s the price of leadership and its privileges. Dickish behaviors that break pack norms create instability and are especially dangerous when there are outside threats/competitors (other packs/predators). Asabiyyah is not strong when the pack is full of assholes.
    , @iffen
    who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society

    We don't need your stinking status enhancements!

    We need mo' money in the pay envelope and more pay envelopes!

    , @Duke of Qin
    You are conflating two separate issues, status and power. Power is primary and status is secondary and derives from the latter. I am sure the Romans found Gothic table manners severely lacking, yet it was Gothic power that won out and Roman civilization that died. Likewise the amusing video JJ shared. The black woman obviously lacked status and the YouTube comments left behind left no doubt as to this. Yet what is the use of tut tutting after the fact when the obvious clear as day truth is that the black woman got her way and none of the other high status individuals did anything. Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield. Sure it will eventually become a ruin, but blacks win and whites lose. You see in the macro level as South Africa is gradually ethnically cleansed of whites, yet the same refugees from the black tide are usually the first to make excuses for the blacks that ethnically cleansed them! Another case in point, when Cortez in responding to Charles V criticism of the excesses of the ecomienda system responded that maybe such an enlightenment policy would be possible if the majority of the Spanish colonialists were like the good noble friars, but it wasn't possible because the majority of the Spaniards were of low quality, violent, and vicious and if given more free interaction with the natives were likely to convert them to European vices. It was men such as they that carved out a Spanish Empire across the new world rather than the good burghers.

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.
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  153. @Duke of Qin
    I do not think it is possible. There is some quirk of human psychology, "squeaky wheel getting the grease" that seems to empower being the biggest ass hole around. It maybe that people just associate it with alpha like behavior. Just look at the poor behavior of blacks everywhere, yet everyone else is on tip toes around them. Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet. Hell look at Trump. He defies all social convention of his class, yet his followers have formed a cult of personality around him. Yes people do talk about such people behind their backs, but in public their power is absolute because of their willingness to break established norms.

    So, I referred my friend to you, and he says “he should get a better platform for his thoughts than random blog comments” and “yea perhaps you two should start blogging together.”

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  154. AaronB says:

    Someone needs to write about the way low status people misunderstand the behavior of high status people.

    Game is basically a low status persons inevitable misunderstanding of how someone with high status might behave.

    Paul Fussel I believe touched on this subject iirc, but I don’t remember the details.

    It’s an interesting topic.

    Of course, a low status person will need to employ different tactics in wresting respect from society that may well be the best available for someone in his situation – but to mistake that for high status behavior is a basic error, although perhaps an inevitable and understandable one.

    If people had religion they’d be far less anxious about this whole status nonsense!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    If people had religion they’d be far less anxious about this whole status nonsense!
     
    Organized religion is also a magnet for status seekers. Your buddy Talha is a good example of that.

    From the perspective of true spirituality the only status worth seeking is Oneness in God.
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  155. @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Trust me, I think that’s dumb.

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.

    I think that people just have a very strong “just world” hypothesis; and when the people seem unjust but are rewarded, then they update their beliefs and mental rules so that its a just world once again. Not everyone, but enough.

    I tend to try to live up to Confucian ideals, so obviously boorishness is not what I think should be esteemed. But assuming that the only other option is to go full poz, then some level of chaos still has more vitality and thymos. I think that such contrast is not practical, though, and societal governance in practice is much more about compromise and accepting certain sliding slopes: flying is falling without hitting the ground.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.
     
    That’s an interesting proposition. But the specifics of the scenario you pose are missing. For example, how harshly have others been punished previously for violating the norms? How beloved or loathed are the current elites/rulers/enforcers of the norms and, consequently, their rules, etc. Are the said norms exigential or more generalized/traditional/Ten Commandments-like?

    I can see the circumstances in which such rule breaking and “getting away with it” are grudgingly admired, but I can also see where that would merely result in mass resentment and/or social chaos.
    , @JJ

    I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.
     
    See the below video:

    https://youtu.be/MGVizEMvFnE

    A man gave up his seat to an elderly Asian woman. While the black mother occupied 2 seats herself, she blamed racism and the old lady for not giving the seat to her daughter.

    Nobody on that train stood up for the Asian woman, no one, all silent. I don't think people would find respect in that beast, but in the end she got what she wanted. Duke is right, especially in a multicultural and multiracial environment. The Confucius ideals only work among people who share the same ideals.
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  156. @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

    I’m surprised, this is actually insightful. Why can’t you be this lucid all the time?

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
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  157. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

     

    Trust me, I think that's dumb.

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that's when it actually engenders respect.

    I think that people just have a very strong "just world" hypothesis; and when the people seem unjust but are rewarded, then they update their beliefs and mental rules so that its a just world once again. Not everyone, but enough.

    I tend to try to live up to Confucian ideals, so obviously boorishness is not what I think should be esteemed. But assuming that the only other option is to go full poz, then some level of chaos still has more vitality and thymos. I think that such contrast is not practical, though, and societal governance in practice is much more about compromise and accepting certain sliding slopes: flying is falling without hitting the ground.

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.

    That’s an interesting proposition. But the specifics of the scenario you pose are missing. For example, how harshly have others been punished previously for violating the norms? How beloved or loathed are the current elites/rulers/enforcers of the norms and, consequently, their rules, etc. Are the said norms exigential or more generalized/traditional/Ten Commandments-like?

    I can see the circumstances in which such rule breaking and “getting away with it” are grudgingly admired, but I can also see where that would merely result in mass resentment and/or social chaos.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Assume that aliens came to Earth and began the massacre of everyone over thirty-five; such a norm would be ridiculous by our standards. By if they were unopposable, you would not only find a many humans that not only "grudgingly admired" their strength but also individuals that actually begin to advocate and support them, especially if supporting them provided any minimal benefit at all.

    The mind seeks justice in a world of chaos. And if it has to grasp at straws to do so, many will nonetheless do so. The world will be just; those individuals will just need to create the stories that fit the current reality they live in.
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  158. Twinkie says:
    @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status – a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect – it is automatically granted.

    Yes.

    Why do so many young people equate thuggery with “alpha-ness”? And why all this obsession with being an an Alpha? It seems to me that it’s almost always the physically weak, socially awkward males who seem to obsess with this concept.

    I’ve trained dogs for a long time, and I can tell you firsthand that dogs may fear a capriciously violent person, but they won’t respect and follow such an unstable leader for long. Being an apha dog is not about being vicious – there is sometimes a need for that, yes – but mostly it’s about setting a good example and a firm, consistent, stable vibe through the whole pack, keeping a good order where everyone is fed reasonably well and free from conflict.

    And crucially it is sacrifice. Being a good leader means that you have stay on watch while others frolick and play and be ready confront threats first, putting one’s life on the line for the rest of the pack. That’s the price of leadership and its privileges. Dickish behaviors that break pack norms create instability and are especially dangerous when there are outside threats/competitors (other packs/predators). Asabiyyah is not strong when the pack is full of assholes.

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  159. @Twinkie

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.
     
    That’s an interesting proposition. But the specifics of the scenario you pose are missing. For example, how harshly have others been punished previously for violating the norms? How beloved or loathed are the current elites/rulers/enforcers of the norms and, consequently, their rules, etc. Are the said norms exigential or more generalized/traditional/Ten Commandments-like?

    I can see the circumstances in which such rule breaking and “getting away with it” are grudgingly admired, but I can also see where that would merely result in mass resentment and/or social chaos.

    Assume that aliens came to Earth and began the massacre of everyone over thirty-five; such a norm would be ridiculous by our standards. By if they were unopposable, you would not only find a many humans that not only “grudgingly admired” their strength but also individuals that actually begin to advocate and support them, especially if supporting them provided any minimal benefit at all.

    The mind seeks justice in a world of chaos. And if it has to grasp at straws to do so, many will nonetheless do so. The world will be just; those individuals will just need to create the stories that fit the current reality they live in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    I think there is a spectrum; many people are malleable, yet many others are not.
    , @Twinkie
    By the way, the debate over this - whether people will accept the new normal or not - is the crux of matter in insurgency/counter-insurgency. When you are an occupying power, your goal is to get the bulk of the population to go along with the new program and isolate the malcontents. On the other side, the insurgent’s proximate goal is to make the new regime ever so oppressive and unreasonable - alien to the people at large, which then becomes the vast sea in which the insurgent can operate and weaken, demoralize, and isolate the new regime by a thousand paper cuts.
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  160. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Assume that aliens came to Earth and began the massacre of everyone over thirty-five; such a norm would be ridiculous by our standards. By if they were unopposable, you would not only find a many humans that not only "grudgingly admired" their strength but also individuals that actually begin to advocate and support them, especially if supporting them provided any minimal benefit at all.

    The mind seeks justice in a world of chaos. And if it has to grasp at straws to do so, many will nonetheless do so. The world will be just; those individuals will just need to create the stories that fit the current reality they live in.

    I think there is a spectrum; many people are malleable, yet many others are not.

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  161. APilgrim says:

    How about Vladivostok?

    Vladivostok is in the news, if you know where to look.

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  162. APilgrim says:

    EXCLUSIVE: This week saw a loaded oil tanker arrive from Vladivostok at the refinery port of Anacortes, Washington. Anacortes is the location of two oil refineries. One of them is owned by Andeavor, formerly known as Tesoro. The other is a Shell property. It’s almost bewildering to absorb news of Nordtulip’s arrival and realize that Russia … could become a prime supplier of crude oil to the Pacific North West. The Portuguese-flagged ship was coming directly from the port of Nakhodka near Vladivostok, Russia, which it departed on June 22. The 229-metre Nordtulip is likely able to carry 600,000 to 650,000 barrels of oil.

    ‘From Russia, with oil’, Stewart Muir, Resource Works, EXCLUSIVE: Posted on August 01, 2018, http://www.resourceworks.com/from-russia

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  163. APilgrim says:

    Last winter, Boston purchased a load of Russian LNG, but a 2nd load was turned back.

    The USA is awash in O&G.

    Why are (Democratic) Blue States importing Russian O&G?

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  164. APilgrim says:

    It will come as a surprise to many that Anacortes is the destination for oil from Russia to supply Pacific North West motorists. Don’t they have Alaska, North Dakota and Canada for that? Isn’t America now a major oil exporter that doesn’t need to depend on imports? For a long time Alaska and the Trans Mountain pipeline met a lot of the demand, but we know that Alaska is in decline as a producer. Those who follow tanker movements closely are aware that it’s by no means the first time we’ve seen such a shipment between Russia and Puget Sound. In July 2012, Bloomberg News reported on the phenomenon, stating: “Vladimir Putin, a frequent opponent of American foreign policy, is sending more crude than ever to the West Coast, a region all but cut off from the biggest U.S. oil-production boom since the end of the Cold War.” In June 2012, over 5 million barrels of oil arrived at United States west coast ports, a 17-year high. Bloomberg reported that Russian crude supplies were gaining “market acceptance” in the U.S. as they competed with other imports, according to David Hackett, the president of Stillwater Associates in Irvine, California, an independent fuel consultant.

    ‘From Russia, with oil’, Stewart Muir, Resource Works, EXCLUSIVE: Posted on August 01, 2018, http://www.resourceworks.com/from-russia

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Can you not write one comment after another in succession, but combine them into one instead. Thanks.
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  165. Twinkie says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Assume that aliens came to Earth and began the massacre of everyone over thirty-five; such a norm would be ridiculous by our standards. By if they were unopposable, you would not only find a many humans that not only "grudgingly admired" their strength but also individuals that actually begin to advocate and support them, especially if supporting them provided any minimal benefit at all.

    The mind seeks justice in a world of chaos. And if it has to grasp at straws to do so, many will nonetheless do so. The world will be just; those individuals will just need to create the stories that fit the current reality they live in.

    By the way, the debate over this – whether people will accept the new normal or not – is the crux of matter in insurgency/counter-insurgency. When you are an occupying power, your goal is to get the bulk of the population to go along with the new program and isolate the malcontents. On the other side, the insurgent’s proximate goal is to make the new regime ever so oppressive and unreasonable – alien to the people at large, which then becomes the vast sea in which the insurgent can operate and weaken, demoralize, and isolate the new regime by a thousand paper cuts.

    Read More
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  166. @APilgrim
    It will come as a surprise to many that Anacortes is the destination for oil from Russia to supply Pacific North West motorists. Don’t they have Alaska, North Dakota and Canada for that? Isn't America now a major oil exporter that doesn't need to depend on imports? For a long time Alaska and the Trans Mountain pipeline met a lot of the demand, but we know that Alaska is in decline as a producer. Those who follow tanker movements closely are aware that it's by no means the first time we've seen such a shipment between Russia and Puget Sound. In July 2012, Bloomberg News reported on the phenomenon, stating: "Vladimir Putin, a frequent opponent of American foreign policy, is sending more crude than ever to the West Coast, a region all but cut off from the biggest U.S. oil-production boom since the end of the Cold War." In June 2012, over 5 million barrels of oil arrived at United States west coast ports, a 17-year high. Bloomberg reported that Russian crude supplies were gaining “market acceptance” in the U.S. as they competed with other imports, according to David Hackett, the president of Stillwater Associates in Irvine, California, an independent fuel consultant.

    ‘From Russia, with oil’, Stewart Muir, Resource Works, EXCLUSIVE: Posted on August 01, 2018, http://www.resourceworks.com/from-russia

    Can you not write one comment after another in succession, but combine them into one instead. Thanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @APilgrim
    Dear Anatoly Karlin,

    Sure, I will be happy to make more comprehensive posts, in the future.

    Sincerely,

    APilgrim
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  167. APilgrim says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Can you not write one comment after another in succession, but combine them into one instead. Thanks.

    Dear Anatoly Karlin,

    Sure, I will be happy to make more comprehensive posts, in the future.

    Sincerely,

    APilgrim

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  168. Top five views Britons hold and don’t feel main parties represent them.

    1. A tougher justice system

    2. Tighter immigration rules

    3. A non-interventionist stance regarding military interventions in foreign countries

    4. More government regulation of big businesses

    5. Reduce welfare benefits

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/where-most-fertile-ground-new-party/

    Tory and Leave voters are most alienated.

    And neither the Tory nor Labour leaders draw much confidence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Forgot to add: Aside from more women choosing 'don't know' on some questions, there doesn't seem to be an American-style big gaping gender cleavage, which is reassuring.
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  169. neutral says:
    @Lars Porsena
    Unz commenters? I didn't know our reputation preceded us that much.

    I was talking about Americans being unpleasant.

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  170. iffen says:
    @Dmitry
    There are millions of Latin Americans living in Spain, with Spanish citizenship. I wonder if it is even undercounted, because of their citizenship is not Latin American (so their children are just counted as Spanish).

    http://www.lacelosia.com/la-cepan/

    So if says above 2,4 million Latin American immigrants in Spain - but does it include all the ones with Spanish citizenship, and their children?

    Count me as partially informed now. The info that I read stated that after two years they are no longer counted as immigrants. Just a bit of ignorance on my part not knowing that the numbers were in the hundreds of thousands to millions range.

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  171. @Hyperborean
    Top five views Britons hold and don't feel main parties represent them.

    1. A tougher justice system

    2. Tighter immigration rules

    3. A non-interventionist stance regarding military interventions in foreign countries

    4. More government regulation of big businesses

    5. Reduce welfare benefits

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-07-30/Most%20fertile%20ground-01.png

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/08/01/where-most-fertile-ground-new-party/

    Tory and Leave voters are most alienated.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-07-30/Party%20comparisons-01.png

    And neither the Tory nor Labour leaders draw much confidence.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2018-08-10/Best%20PM%20tracker%208-9%20August-01.png

    Forgot to add: Aside from more women choosing ‘don’t know’ on some questions, there doesn’t seem to be an American-style big gaping gender cleavage, which is reassuring.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Are you the hyberborean guy on Twitter?

    You can't have non intervention & Christianity.
    , @RadicalCenter
    I never object to big cleavage. To which gaping can be an appropriate response.
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  172. Anon[300] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hyperborean
    Forgot to add: Aside from more women choosing 'don't know' on some questions, there doesn't seem to be an American-style big gaping gender cleavage, which is reassuring.

    Are you the hyberborean guy on Twitter?

    You can’t have non intervention & Christianity.

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  173. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

    who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society

    We don’t need your stinking status enhancements!

    We need mo’ money in the pay envelope and more pay envelopes!

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  174. Are you the hyberborean guy on Twitter?

    You can’t have non intervention & Christianity.

    I’m not on Twitter, must be someone else. The only place I ever comment is on UR.

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  175. @gate666
    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.

    nothing wrong with tolerance towards gays.

    Except for the AIDS and the pedophilia, that is.

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  176. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered
     
    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it's very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    This doesn't imply there was some pan-European nationalism possible in this historical era (19th century). And obviously today, it seems not more likely (despite EU attempts to do this).

    Distinction between civilization and savages - is similar to what existed even in Roman era, and closer to imperialist than nationalistic (particularist) view.


    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’.
     
    So a Japanese person could feel a joint nationalism and solidarity with China, because of this similarity? It doesn't happen in reality. Similarity degrees between nationalities, is not creating joint nationalism.

    Maybe it is possible if you alienated them (Japanese and Chinese) from their home countries and language. For example, if they were both emigrants to America, and somehow categorized together based on their skin. In that case, "East Asian nationalism" becomes possible. Or if one nationality conquered, dominated and assimilated the other nationality, so there was no conflict between the two, and they became the same country.

    But within their own nations, Japanese and Chinese, will be rivals, if not enemies - and this is in some way healthy, as they are foreign to each other, with separate languages, nationalisms and cultures.

    White nationalism is normal for America because they are removed from their home context, assimilated to the same cultures for over 100 years, until all white people (with some few exceptions) became a single anglosaxon nationality, and now result is they don't feel like foreigners to each other.


    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

     

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I feel solidarity with nationalities I admire. But it does not create nationalism on this - as I'm still totally foreign person in Germany, Spain or England, and vice-versa. Maybe I'm less foreign in Germany, than in Colombia (where I could probably be kidnapped as a foreigner) - but it's a issue of degree, not of kind.

    I can't feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success - rather, the opposite.

    Nationalism requires to feel "this is our people". How do you feel "European or white nationalism" with foreigners, that don't understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them? (This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation).

    EU is trying to create a common European identity within its member countries. So German taxpayers can pay for other European nationalities, and not resent this, since they are all one European nationality.

    To reduce the sense of these being foreigners, requires reduction of cultural difference between European countries. The reality is assimilation of weaker nationalities to the stronger nationalities. If Greeks become more like Germans, then Germans will be happier to finance them.

    Although perhaps EU is slowly succeeding, with enough Erasmus trips, in indoctrinating a younger generation to believe they have a common identity across Europe. I have heard conversations of people (of EU countries), very enthusiastic for this project. But result of assimilating to common European identity, seems to me weakening of individual nations - something sad.

    In that case, “East Asian nationalism” becomes possible.

    Not if this comment thread is any sort of guide.

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  177. Speaking of Hyperborea, even if we wuz mammothz is silly, the artwork is quite nice.

    https://nataly-zhizn.livejournal.com/1665.html

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  178. szopen says:
    @Lars Porsena
    Not in the city limits anymore but in the Metro area. I have heard estimates recently of 2 million poles in the metro area, mainly in the suburbs, I assume counting the illegals and visa holders. Low estimates are over .9-1.1 mil for the metro area.

    So I guess to be fair we should count not everyone in Warsaw but everyone in the "Warsaw Metropolitan Area". How big is that? Chicago might be competitive. Around 10 million people total is usually the figure for the population of the metro area including the suburbs. Depends on how you define the area.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_metropolitan_area

    “The metropolitan area covers ten counties[1] in the Masovian Voivodeship, with an area of 3,000 km² and a population of 3,101,000 in 2014″

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  179. szopen says:
    @reiner Tor
    The South African government has started expropriating the white farmers. I do feel racial solidarity.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/south-africa-begins-seizing-whiteowned-farms/news-story/8937f899bd3f131bfc4ffb648ea5c53b

    They f* up no matter they will do. There is only the question of when, not if. Unless, of course, by some magic the west will suddenly get rid of the soft-heart do-gooders at the top.

    In fact, I would say most of the Europe is f* up. V4 has some chance, but looking at how deluded our supposedly “nationalist” leaders are, I’d say this is also a question of time.

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  180. utu says:
    @gmachine1729
    LOL

    You are essentially 100% correct. By the way, want to help me keep https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/duke-of-qin-unz-review/ up to date? You can send me via email your high quality comments on here in reverse chronological order up to the first comment currently on that page, the indicator of how up to date it is.

    Back to your comment. 儒家的中庸is bullshit to me. Confucius held back Chinese civilization a lot with his overly rigid philosophy.

    Or look at how obnoxious Jews are, yet the people who they screw the hardest are first to lick their feet.
     
    Yes, there's something known as Stockholm syndrome, which manifests itself very well in the case of the contempt of HKers for mainland Chinese. And the servility Indians have to the Anglo system. Similarly, the worst soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army tended to be Korean and Taiwanese. 狗的本质之一就是表面上比主人还狠。If Chinese are to gain real status on the world stage, they'll have to reverse Stockholm syndrome. Basically towards all the West-loving liberal Chinese, beat the shit out of them, not give a damn about what they think, not give a damn about what the West thinks either. Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    Once you have the hard power, you also need to exercise it to turn it real.

    Dreams of impotent wanker.

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  181. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    at the Battle of the Tatnall Forts in 1855, the American captain who was supposed to be neutral violated his orders to intervene and help the French and said “I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by and watch white men be murdered
     
    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it's very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    This doesn't imply there was some pan-European nationalism possible in this historical era (19th century). And obviously today, it seems not more likely (despite EU attempts to do this).

    Distinction between civilization and savages - is similar to what existed even in Roman era, and closer to imperialist than nationalistic (particularist) view.


    In general genetically similar peoples develop similar cultures and ways of thinking. I don’t know why you (as iffen also implied) ridiculously describe it as just ‘visual similarity’.
     
    So a Japanese person could feel a joint nationalism and solidarity with China, because of this similarity? It doesn't happen in reality. Similarity degrees between nationalities, is not creating joint nationalism.

    Maybe it is possible if you alienated them (Japanese and Chinese) from their home countries and language. For example, if they were both emigrants to America, and somehow categorized together based on their skin. In that case, "East Asian nationalism" becomes possible. Or if one nationality conquered, dominated and assimilated the other nationality, so there was no conflict between the two, and they became the same country.

    But within their own nations, Japanese and Chinese, will be rivals, if not enemies - and this is in some way healthy, as they are foreign to each other, with separate languages, nationalisms and cultures.

    White nationalism is normal for America because they are removed from their home context, assimilated to the same cultures for over 100 years, until all white people (with some few exceptions) became a single anglosaxon nationality, and now result is they don't feel like foreigners to each other.


    Forcing people into a political union causes problems that lead to mutual resentment, I don’t know what this has to do with solidarity.

     

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I feel solidarity with nationalities I admire. But it does not create nationalism on this - as I'm still totally foreign person in Germany, Spain or England, and vice-versa. Maybe I'm less foreign in Germany, than in Colombia (where I could probably be kidnapped as a foreigner) - but it's a issue of degree, not of kind.

    I can't feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success - rather, the opposite.

    Nationalism requires to feel "this is our people". How do you feel "European or white nationalism" with foreigners, that don't understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them? (This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation).

    EU is trying to create a common European identity within its member countries. So German taxpayers can pay for other European nationalities, and not resent this, since they are all one European nationality.

    To reduce the sense of these being foreigners, requires reduction of cultural difference between European countries. The reality is assimilation of weaker nationalities to the stronger nationalities. If Greeks become more like Germans, then Germans will be happier to finance them.

    Although perhaps EU is slowly succeeding, with enough Erasmus trips, in indoctrinating a younger generation to believe they have a common identity across Europe. I have heard conversations of people (of EU countries), very enthusiastic for this project. But result of assimilating to common European identity, seems to me weakening of individual nations - something sad.

    And what excuses British and French to support the Ottoman Empire, in Crimean war?

    British public opinion was anti-Russian it is true, but also always supported the people of the Balkans against the Turks, so strongly that Britain intervened to help liberate the Greeks and that it later led to the fall of the pro-Ottoman Jewish government in 1880.

    It sounds like a story of fighting against barbarians, in tropical battle space. In that context it’s very understandable that he will rescue a French who is about to have his brains used for dinner.

    It was against the Chinese.

    Argument here is related to nationalism, not just solidarity.

    I was only talking about solidarity previously. To clarify I do not think that trying to merge Europeans into a single nation or political entity is desirable, but I do not think that having solidarity with other Europeans requires it.

    I can’t feel nationalitically proud of German or Spanish success – rather, the opposite.

    I think that most Europeans naturally feel proud or happy thinking about European victories over non-Europeans like Thermopylae, Chalons, Tours, Lepanto or Vienna.

    How do you feel “European or white nationalism” with foreigners, that don’t understand your jokes, have a different personality, way of life and mentality when you meet them?

    Obviously people get on better with people from the same nationality, but beyond that people get on better with people from the same racial group. You only need to watch groups of blacks, asians and whites, even from different countries, self-segregate.

    This kind of larger bloc is historically happening only in empires, with the help of religion, and assimilation

    There was plenty of racial solidarity against non-Europeans in 1900 without this.

    nationalism was of little relevance in a history of England in this era

    ??????????? It was one of the most nationalistic societies I can think of. You only need to read contemporary writings to see this. It is true that there was no movement or ideology self-consciously called ‘British nationalism’, but this is only because it was so hegemonic and pervasive.

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    British public opinion was anti-Russian it is true, but also always supported the people of the Balkans against the Turks, so strongly that Britain intervened to help liberate the Greeks and that it later led to the fall of the pro-Ottoman Jewish government in 1880.

     

    British war propaganda, was based on idea that Russian soldiers were enslaving and massacring Turkish civilians of the Dardanelles. And British argue concept that Russian Empire has given no religious freedom even to Christians, and British newspapers saying that Ottoman Empire preserved freedom of Christian minorities more than Russian Empire itself.

    I'm not criticizing British propaganda ("all is fair in war"), but it does not reconcile your argument that in 19th century there was more "pan-European" solidarity, or possibility of common nationalism, than today.

    British Empire are following their national interests, while at the same time rationalizing it for mass public in terms of morality (saving people from Russian tyranny). British public itself includes its sympathy to Turkish civilians - which is a (Christian) attitude which continues today in Europe (Europeans do not spare sympathy for other nationalities, which they believe are oppressed).


    I was only talking about solidarity previously. To clarify I do not think that trying to merge Europeans into a single nation or political entity is desirable, but I do not think that having solidarity with other Europeans requires it.

     

    But a pan-European nationalism requires it. My experience of travelling and living in Europe, is always to be surprised how foreign other countries are feeling (usually more than I imagined before). This is cool in my view. Greeks and Germans are, really, very different from each other. I would not want that Greeks became more like Germans, or vice-versa. But in order for common nationalism or solidarity (in which Greek could feel nationalism for Germany, or German for Greece), it would require reduction of the differences (assimilation).

    In America, all the white people have assimilated to a single nationality, in a quite brutal way (so that German, French and Italian Americans do not speak German, French and Italian - and their minds have become anglosaxon). And the result is white nationalism (except for a few outsider groups which resisted assimilation). Fact other races like blacks did not assimilate to the same nationality - is itself very politically incorrect and controversial topic in America.


    I think that most Europeans naturally feel proud or happy thinking about European victories over non-Europeans like Thermopylae, Chalons, Tours, Lepanto or Vienna.

     

    I agree that I am feeling happy about these victories, but here for me feeling is a victory of superior nations over barbaric ones.

    I can only speak about myself - I love Ancient Spartans. But I cannot see them as anything but completely exotic nationality, with nothing in common with my own.

    So attitude to Ancient Greece, is very far from nationalistic sentiments. The exoticism of Ancient Greek world is a lot of the attraction of it for us.

    Reading about Ancient Greece, it's like reading science fiction (it's almost difficult to imagine they shared the same planet as us, as it was such a different society).

    I "support" Ancient Greeks, in the same way I would support Real Madrid or Manchester United (admiration of something which is foreign).


    Obviously people get on better with people from the same nationality, but beyond that people get on better with people from the same racial group. You only need to watch groups of blacks, asians and whites, even from different countries, self-segregate.

     

    I'm not saying people only are better with others from the same nationality. In my experience, I like meeting foreigners, and living abroad is enjoyable for.

    If you go as a teenager, on an multinational course, you'll see everyone (at least at this age) falls in love with different nationalities.

    But my point, is what gives the nationalistic possibility. Possibility of nationalist feelings come when you realize "this is our people".

    Most normal people switch between both nationalistic moods (or solidarity to our people), and other moods where they become interested in foreign culture.

    In international context, forum, or school - you find that people like Georgians and Kazakhs (which seem as foreign normally and are racially different), when you are abroad, they are suddenly far more similar than people like Germans and Italians.

    Also Kazakhs are far more similar and grouping with Russians, than they are with Chinese.

    If you meet Latin Americans, all the different races are also grouping together by the culture they assimilated to. Brazilian Germans, and Brazilian Japanese are with each other, not with real Japanese/Chinese or with real Germans.

    -

    White nationalism in America, is "American nationalism". It is nationalistic feeling for what makes America a unique anglosaxon origin civilization. White Americans themselves have a distinctive culture, which black and Latino Americans fail to assimilate to.

    But pan-European nationalism in Europe, would requires an opposite effect - just assimilation of small nationalities to the dominant nationalities. People like modern Greeks (whose culture and lifestyle more similar to Turks than Germans), being bullied to be like Germans, in exchange for economic support.

    EU national anthem is final movement of Beethoven's 5th - not some Greek traditional music.


    There was plenty of racial solidarity against non-Europeans in 1900 without this.

     

    Reading 19th century literature, the sense is more of distinction between barbarians and primitives.

    19th century writers understand that different races have different levels of capacity.

    Major wars of 19th century are, not expressing European solidarity, but between European great powers, including - in Crimean war - siding with Ottomans against another European great power.

    In pan-Slavist writers, the emphasis on Orthodox religion - including protection of Near Eastern Christians.

    In Slavophile writers, which has an emphasis more on ethnic solidarity, it is in opposition to both Ottomans, and particularly other European nationalities (particularly the Teutonic races).

    19th century writers had a stronger sense than today, if anything, in importance of retaining separate cultures, and difference between civilizations.

    -
    I will also add about Tolstoy. Tolstoy's opposition prior to Russo-Japanese, was written in terms of empathy towards Japanese. For Tolstoy, writes death of a Japanese soldier, is not less than of a Russian soldier. Tolstoy is not anti-nationalist, but certainly reflects a strong admiration for Japan which exists in Russian society even before the war (with his admiration for Buddhism).

    It would interesting to see what was the British cultural view of the war. British official policy, supported Japanese navy.


    It was one of the most nationalistic societies I can think of. You only need to read contemporary writings to see this. It is true that there was no movement or ideology self-consciously called ‘British nationalism’, but this is only because it was so hegemonic and pervasive.

     

    19th century British elites, are dominating the world and something like "alphas" of the international community.

    They themselves romanticised non-European elites (you can see all the signs in London dedicated to where lived Thai and Arab Princes), and put them into British boarding schools, and to Oxford and Cambridge University.

    In Russia itself, something similar - Georgian and Armenian princes had no less respect than Russian ones, and were given very high positions in Russian Empire.

    Nationalism is not an important political movement in Britain, as concepts like "self-determination" are not relevant for the people who are masters of the world. In Ireland though, nationalism (with aim of self-determination) is an important political movement.

    , @Epigon

    British public opinion was anti-Russian it is true, but also always supported the people of the Balkans against the Turks, so strongly that Britain intervened to help liberate the Greeks and that it later led to the fall of the pro-Ottoman Jewish government in 1880.
     
    Are you THIS delusional? Where do you draw your history knowledge from?
    The part about Greece is true, but it was done to create an Anglo puppet in the Mediterranean and block future Russian access to it, as part of Great Game - Bulgaria was always disallowed from having access to Aegean, the same for Serbia regarding Adriatic - precisely due to British interventions and policies.

    From Crimean War, to Berlin Congress of 1878, to Annexation Crisis of 1908, and London Conference of 1912/1913, UK had always schemed AGAINST Balkan nations IN FAVOUR of Ottomans.

    Not to mention the non-enforcement of Treaty of Sevres and humiliating retreat of British troops from Constantinople and the de facto overseeing of Turkish/Kurdish genocide of Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians.

    Pirates, schemers, devious, unscrupulous, opportunists - all of this comes to my mind regarding British before "gentlemen", "culture" and "protectors of Christians".

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  182. utu says:

    “Chinese tourists very Rude & Uncivilized”

    “Thai woman flips the heck out over rude Chinese tourists”

    “Uncivilized Chinese Tourists Provoke Outrage Abroad”

    It must be remembered that communism is a factor here. Communists destroyed the civilizing upper classes whose job was to impart customs and manners on lower classes. Nobody complains about HK and Taiwan Chinese. It’s possible that HK and Taiwanese had also some positive influence from British and Japanese, respectively, but I think it’s more about class. The communist society destroyed the elites and gave people a false sense of empowerment based on the lowest common denominator. OTOH, KMT Chinese in Taiwan did not destroy the class structure thus the customs and manners were preserved and imparted on the rest of society.

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    Yes, one does not need to read even that far back - say, any of Needham's memoirs, to see that there was once a far more refined class that wasn't based on acquisition of maximal number of shinies. I can personally testify to this: my grandfather spoke eight languages, wrote a number of poems in both Chinese and French(some which got published) and I have a painting in my house from him, and he did this all while doing his government work(and trying to, and failing to, learn the violin well). I am a paltry shadow of him.

    This is one of the reasons why I get quite weary of nationalistic signaling from Chinese; even with being generous, the Chinese have done as much as anyone else to damage Chinese civilization and culture. This is also why I'm not against the larp-like efforts by the new elite to "learn etiquette" at times; it is cargo culting, but maybe its cargo culting that'll lead somewhere once internalized.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course. That's obviously corrosive, and seems silly if it even needs to be stated. This was not the way of things and it can only be a loss for humanity if that notion spreads.

    , @songbird
    Supply shortages often encouraged bad behavior and hoarding. I understand older Chinese women can become very aggressive during sales.
    , @Duke of Qin
    Hah, you must have had very limited interaction with Chinese if you actually believe that no one complains about the Honkies or the Taiwanese. It's a matter of concentric degrees of affinity. The Austrians of less than a century ago would have given you an earful about those "horrendous" Czechs. Now, given the new presence of Afghans, Iraqies, and Morroccans, suddenly the distinction between the Germans and the Czechs are less salient than before and to complain about it any differences now would seem petty and pointless. In truth, I find the mercantile transactionalist comprador behavior of the Southerners rather petty and the whole notion that their customs and manners are to be emulated laughable.
    , @Dmitry
    I have experience seeing a lot of Chinese tourists, often overcrowding in the tourist sites.

    They often travel in large groups (usually with middle age people) and a tour guide. A lot of them are not rich looking people, but just ordinary people. They often travel on a bus together (as tour groups), and could seem overwhelming for this.

    I have an experience recently at an Ancient site. There was large group of Chinese tourists, all singing Chinese songs loudly and talking very loudly.

    American or European tourists are looking annoyed. But Russian tourists are all clapping and entertained with the Chinese singing.

    Personally, I don't see anything wrong with ordinary people enjoying themselves, even if they have (what is considered locally) bad manners. Sure if they are like this in a church or an art gallery, it could be a problem.

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  183. APilgrim says:

    Mandated Russia Sanctions:, are uncalled for, lacking evidence, unsupported by Europeans, failed & farcical.

    Cossacks and flowers as Putin dances at Austrian minister’s wedding, Reuters Staff, Reporting by Michael Shields, additional reporting by Vladimir Soldatkin in Meseberg, Germany, and Gabrielle Tétrault-Farber in Moscow; Editing by Andrew Bolton, VIENNA, Reuters, WORLD NEWS, AUGUST 18, 2018 / 9:42 AM / UPDATED 14 HOURS AGO, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-austria-putin/cossacks-and-flowers-as-putin-dances-at-austrian-ministers-wedding-idUSKBN1L30GPhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC2DNWLEDrY&feature=youtu.be&t=1

    Putin arrived in a car carrying a bouquet of flowers and accompanied, local media said, by a troupe of Cossack singers booked to serenade the newlyweds. Photographs showed Kneissl, 53, smiling in a long white and cream “dirndl” dress and talking to Putin as they danced in a vineyard in southern Styria province, the venue of her wedding to entrepreneur Wolfgang Meilinger. Putin – who made a toast in German at the wedding, according to the Kremlin – was pictured listening to her intently.

    Photographs showed Kneissl, 53, smiling in a long white and cream “dirndl” dress and talking to Putin as they danced in a vineyard in southern Styria province, the venue of her wedding to entrepreneur Wolfgang Meilinger. Putin – who made a toast in German at the wedding, according to the Kremlin – was pictured listening to her intently. The invitation surprised many in Vienna and Moscow, particularly at a time when the European Union is at odds with Russia over its annexation of the Crimea region from Ukraine, and other issues. “It was a nice trip,” Putin said ahead of the talks with Merkel. “It was a private visit.”

    Kneissl was appointed to her job by the far-right Freedom Party (FPO) which has a cooperation agreement with Putin’s United Russia party. FPO leader and Vice Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache has expressed support for Russia and called for sanctions against Moscow to be lifted.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Haven’t you already posted it..?
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  184. @APilgrim
    Mandated Russia Sanctions:, are uncalled for, lacking evidence, unsupported by Europeans, failed & farcical.

    Cossacks and flowers as Putin dances at Austrian minister's wedding, Reuters Staff, Reporting by Michael Shields, additional reporting by Vladimir Soldatkin in Meseberg, Germany, and Gabrielle Tétrault-Farber in Moscow; Editing by Andrew Bolton, VIENNA, Reuters, WORLD NEWS, AUGUST 18, 2018 / 9:42 AM / UPDATED 14 HOURS AGO, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-austria-putin/cossacks-and-flowers-as-putin-dances-at-austrian-ministers-wedding-idUSKBN1L30GP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC2DNWLEDrY&feature=youtu.be&t=1

    Putin arrived in a car carrying a bouquet of flowers and accompanied, local media said, by a troupe of Cossack singers booked to serenade the newlyweds. Photographs showed Kneissl, 53, smiling in a long white and cream “dirndl” dress and talking to Putin as they danced in a vineyard in southern Styria province, the venue of her wedding to entrepreneur Wolfgang Meilinger. Putin - who made a toast in German at the wedding, according to the Kremlin - was pictured listening to her intently.

    Photographs showed Kneissl, 53, smiling in a long white and cream “dirndl” dress and talking to Putin as they danced in a vineyard in southern Styria province, the venue of her wedding to entrepreneur Wolfgang Meilinger. Putin - who made a toast in German at the wedding, according to the Kremlin - was pictured listening to her intently. The invitation surprised many in Vienna and Moscow, particularly at a time when the European Union is at odds with Russia over its annexation of the Crimea region from Ukraine, and other issues. “It was a nice trip,” Putin said ahead of the talks with Merkel. “It was a private visit.”

    Kneissl was appointed to her job by the far-right Freedom Party (FPO) which has a cooperation agreement with Putin’s United Russia party. FPO leader and Vice Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache has expressed support for Russia and called for sanctions against Moscow to be lifted.

    Haven’t you already posted it..?

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  185. Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Ultimate redpill: ROG is behind ZOG.
    , @Dmitry
    The government does waste money in Israel. They have cultural centers, free concerts, free lectures, and Alexandrov Ensemble performing all over. Probably also some cyber spying, so they can understand how the Israeli government is thinking (but a lot less compared to the Chinese).

    You know it's wasted money, as Russia's influence in Israel will be always be very low (American culture is increasingly dominating there). But at least some cultured people there can enjoy the free events.

    Israel border control itself recently discriminates against Russian tourists, sending many home who they suspect want to work illegally.

    Meanwhile, website Times of Israel in your link, is publishing a video of a Victory Day parade, and somehow viewing old people celebrating of victory in a war, in a sinister way.

    -


    I'm surprised the article is not saying they have expended tens of millions of dollars repairing Sergey's Courtyard in Jerusalem and turning it into a hotel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7LTmrF962k
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  186. @utu
    "Chinese tourists very Rude & Uncivilized"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ_eXLkP08

    "Thai woman flips the heck out over rude Chinese tourists"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8OCR1suKcs

    "Uncivilized Chinese Tourists Provoke Outrage Abroad"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9bLIg84XM

    It must be remembered that communism is a factor here. Communists destroyed the civilizing upper classes whose job was to impart customs and manners on lower classes. Nobody complains about HK and Taiwan Chinese. It's possible that HK and Taiwanese had also some positive influence from British and Japanese, respectively, but I think it's more about class. The communist society destroyed the elites and gave people a false sense of empowerment based on the lowest common denominator. OTOH, KMT Chinese in Taiwan did not destroy the class structure thus the customs and manners were preserved and imparted on the rest of society.

    Yes, one does not need to read even that far back – say, any of Needham’s memoirs, to see that there was once a far more refined class that wasn’t based on acquisition of maximal number of shinies. I can personally testify to this: my grandfather spoke eight languages, wrote a number of poems in both Chinese and French(some which got published) and I have a painting in my house from him, and he did this all while doing his government work(and trying to, and failing to, learn the violin well). I am a paltry shadow of him.

    This is one of the reasons why I get quite weary of nationalistic signaling from Chinese; even with being generous, the Chinese have done as much as anyone else to damage Chinese civilization and culture. This is also why I’m not against the larp-like efforts by the new elite to “learn etiquette” at times; it is cargo culting, but maybe its cargo culting that’ll lead somewhere once internalized.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course. That’s obviously corrosive, and seems silly if it even needs to be stated. This was not the way of things and it can only be a loss for humanity if that notion spreads.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal
     
    The Blessed Order of the Man Child.

    Been enjoying the exchange especially your insights into Sino-culture and from Twinkie and AaronB about the difference between true alpha qualities and thuggery.

    Peace.
    , @utu

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course.
     
    That is true but etiquette even w/o it being internalized can have a moderating influence just like hypocrisy in Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue.

    As always it all comes down to basic values that may get out of hand like the question of greed you brought up. Our comrade gmachine1729 should be pointing finger at the issue of greed and not Confucianism that he thinks he hates. If Chinese women were not as greedy and ambitious as they sometimes are because of being unrestrained by higher Confucian values perhaps he would not be as miserable as he is and would not be fantasizing about acquiring "hard power" and "exercising it."

    You better watch out if he has his way:


    I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of “getting along” or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas.
     
    BTW, I had worked with the son of Chinese ambassador to Japan before the WWII who came from an aristocratic family. I found it odd and I did not know how to react when he told me at dinner at his home that I was the first person from the corporation we worked for (he was there already over 30 years) that was invited to his home. It seems that I was lucky that most Chinese I run into in my life were very cultured Chinese but they were not form Mainland China. Perhaps that's why I was idealizing Chinese culture as very civil, tactful and refined until I met the rubes like gmachine1729 and a few others here at UR.
    , @Duke of Qin
    This is because you have let your white wife mess with your brain. Power is the ultimate virtue. In group cohesion serves to buttress Chinese power. Whether it is positive reinforcement by shared values or negative reinforcement via shared enemies, Chinese and by this I mean Han ethnic cohesion must me maximized. The values and group markers that they share are really tangential to this idea are only useful as long as they increase Chinese "distinctiveness" and separateness. I think this is one critical place where we part ways. I have the sneaking suspicion that you are closet liberal seem to get the impression you want China to gradually develop and join the so-called "community" of nations with your talk of shared values and "humanity". I spit on the entire concept of a community of nations. There are Chinese and there are not Chinese. Ultimately nothing good has ever come with China's interactions with the outside world and in order to preserve the Chinese race, we must focus inward and isolate ourselves from it. The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed. However, after that the rest of the world can go pound sound because their actions and their opinions one way or another are simply not relevant.
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  187. songbird says:
    @Matra
    In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious.

    This is based on subjective self-reporting. The English ancestry is much further back in a typical American's history so it isn't as well remembered as your Irish or German great-grandfather. Bias against 'bland', 'vanilla', 'oppressive' Wasps in the Ellis Islander-dominated media also leads to more vibrant non-Anglo ancestry being self-reported.

    And, no, the Irish did not outnumber the English at any time in the 1800s. If you count the Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots), who are much closer to the English than they are to the native Irish, as exclusively Irish you can maybe get the numbers close. However, given that the Scotch-Irish mostly intermarried with English (and Scottish Lowland) Protestant Americans right up until at least the early 20th century their descendants would be much more Anglo/ Waspy than Irish.

    I think that the people of Britain and Ireland are quite similar ethnically, esp. compared to the broader population movements today.

    You have the bronze age base which is practically the same. There was about >90% replacement of the neolithic pop on either island. After that there are the Germanic invasions of Britain, but the Anglo-Saxons are close to the same people – same expansion – with maybe 3,000 years or so of drift and local German natural selection. Then the Normans who invaded both places – again a similar people. Then a bit of admixture from the downward mobility of the Protestant Ascendancy, the poor relations of which who often surprisingly became Catholics, despite them being a persecuted group.

    I know a married couple with two red-haired children. The father is English and has redhair. The mother is Irish and has a redhaired father. The children in no way appear like mischlings.

    Of course, there are cultural differences, and that used to be the case in America too, when Catholics would more often go to parochial schools. But, at base, even with their differences, there used to be an American identity and a core American culture – though I’d say it is dead as a national thing – replaced with a Hollywood/gobalist identity.

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  188. songbird says:
    @utu
    "Chinese tourists very Rude & Uncivilized"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ_eXLkP08

    "Thai woman flips the heck out over rude Chinese tourists"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8OCR1suKcs

    "Uncivilized Chinese Tourists Provoke Outrage Abroad"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9bLIg84XM

    It must be remembered that communism is a factor here. Communists destroyed the civilizing upper classes whose job was to impart customs and manners on lower classes. Nobody complains about HK and Taiwan Chinese. It's possible that HK and Taiwanese had also some positive influence from British and Japanese, respectively, but I think it's more about class. The communist society destroyed the elites and gave people a false sense of empowerment based on the lowest common denominator. OTOH, KMT Chinese in Taiwan did not destroy the class structure thus the customs and manners were preserved and imparted on the rest of society.

    Supply shortages often encouraged bad behavior and hoarding. I understand older Chinese women can become very aggressive during sales.

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  189. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, one does not need to read even that far back - say, any of Needham's memoirs, to see that there was once a far more refined class that wasn't based on acquisition of maximal number of shinies. I can personally testify to this: my grandfather spoke eight languages, wrote a number of poems in both Chinese and French(some which got published) and I have a painting in my house from him, and he did this all while doing his government work(and trying to, and failing to, learn the violin well). I am a paltry shadow of him.

    This is one of the reasons why I get quite weary of nationalistic signaling from Chinese; even with being generous, the Chinese have done as much as anyone else to damage Chinese civilization and culture. This is also why I'm not against the larp-like efforts by the new elite to "learn etiquette" at times; it is cargo culting, but maybe its cargo culting that'll lead somewhere once internalized.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course. That's obviously corrosive, and seems silly if it even needs to be stated. This was not the way of things and it can only be a loss for humanity if that notion spreads.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal

    The Blessed Order of the Man Child.

    Been enjoying the exchange especially your insights into Sino-culture and from Twinkie and AaronB about the difference between true alpha qualities and thuggery.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  190. utu says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, one does not need to read even that far back - say, any of Needham's memoirs, to see that there was once a far more refined class that wasn't based on acquisition of maximal number of shinies. I can personally testify to this: my grandfather spoke eight languages, wrote a number of poems in both Chinese and French(some which got published) and I have a painting in my house from him, and he did this all while doing his government work(and trying to, and failing to, learn the violin well). I am a paltry shadow of him.

    This is one of the reasons why I get quite weary of nationalistic signaling from Chinese; even with being generous, the Chinese have done as much as anyone else to damage Chinese civilization and culture. This is also why I'm not against the larp-like efforts by the new elite to "learn etiquette" at times; it is cargo culting, but maybe its cargo culting that'll lead somewhere once internalized.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course. That's obviously corrosive, and seems silly if it even needs to be stated. This was not the way of things and it can only be a loss for humanity if that notion spreads.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course.

    That is true but etiquette even w/o it being internalized can have a moderating influence just like hypocrisy in Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue.

    As always it all comes down to basic values that may get out of hand like the question of greed you brought up. Our comrade gmachine1729 should be pointing finger at the issue of greed and not Confucianism that he thinks he hates. If Chinese women were not as greedy and ambitious as they sometimes are because of being unrestrained by higher Confucian values perhaps he would not be as miserable as he is and would not be fantasizing about acquiring “hard power” and “exercising it.”

    You better watch out if he has his way:

    I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of “getting along” or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas.

    BTW, I had worked with the son of Chinese ambassador to Japan before the WWII who came from an aristocratic family. I found it odd and I did not know how to react when he told me at dinner at his home that I was the first person from the corporation we worked for (he was there already over 30 years) that was invited to his home. It seems that I was lucky that most Chinese I run into in my life were very cultured Chinese but they were not form Mainland China. Perhaps that’s why I was idealizing Chinese culture as very civil, tactful and refined until I met the rubes like gmachine1729 and a few others here at UR.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Greed and status ambition properly channeled is not a problem. To rid the Chinese of them is an act of racial disarmament. Instead the direction of their ambition must be redirected and focused in ways more conducive to the long term survival of the ethnos by directing the output of their energies towards ends that maximize power and outgroup antipathy.

    The actual Chinese aristocracy became extinct in the 9th century just so you know. Titles since then have principally been non hereditary. Who you've and the West have been actually interacting with have been the comprador classes formed primarily Southern gentry who became more powerful following the Taiping war after the state decayed and retreated.
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  191. @utu
    "Chinese tourists very Rude & Uncivilized"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ_eXLkP08

    "Thai woman flips the heck out over rude Chinese tourists"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8OCR1suKcs

    "Uncivilized Chinese Tourists Provoke Outrage Abroad"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9bLIg84XM

    It must be remembered that communism is a factor here. Communists destroyed the civilizing upper classes whose job was to impart customs and manners on lower classes. Nobody complains about HK and Taiwan Chinese. It's possible that HK and Taiwanese had also some positive influence from British and Japanese, respectively, but I think it's more about class. The communist society destroyed the elites and gave people a false sense of empowerment based on the lowest common denominator. OTOH, KMT Chinese in Taiwan did not destroy the class structure thus the customs and manners were preserved and imparted on the rest of society.

    Hah, you must have had very limited interaction with Chinese if you actually believe that no one complains about the Honkies or the Taiwanese. It’s a matter of concentric degrees of affinity. The Austrians of less than a century ago would have given you an earful about those “horrendous” Czechs. Now, given the new presence of Afghans, Iraqies, and Morroccans, suddenly the distinction between the Germans and the Czechs are less salient than before and to complain about it any differences now would seem petty and pointless. In truth, I find the mercantile transactionalist comprador behavior of the Southerners rather petty and the whole notion that their customs and manners are to be emulated laughable.

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  192. APilgrim says:

    The Russia Sanctions are crap.

    ‘Why Russian oil — and not Canadian — will keep fueling the U.S. Pacific Northwest’, Stewart Muir, Canadians for Affordable Energy & executive director of Resource Works, Filed under FP Comment, Special to Financial Post, August 14, 2018, 10:48 AM EDT, https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/why-russian-oil-and-not-canadian-will-keep-fuelling-the-u-s-pacific-northwesthttp://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/reports/impact-of-sanctions-on-russia-s-energy-sectorhttp://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/energysource/energysource-explains-how-has-russia-responded-to-energy-sanctions -

    West Coast residents cannot go a day without oil. It’s not like Russia is a preferred option. Until earlier this year, one of the Anacortes refineries had hoped its supply issues would be addressed by rail imports of U.S. crude oil from the Bakken shale in North Dakota. But in January, Washington State governor (Democrat) Jay Inslee rejected that plan. The Andeavor refinery in Anacortes is already a delivery location for Kinder Morgan’s long-existing Trans Mountain Pipeline, via the Puget Sound spur line from Sumas. So is the Shell refinery at Anacortes. The arrival of Nordtulip carrying Russian oil serves as another reminder of the pointlessness of the long-running anti-Trans Mountain campaign to try to persuade Canadians that the world doesn’t need Canada’s oil. The fact is that if we don’t provide it, someone else will — even if that someone is Vladimir Putin.

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  193. @RadicalCenter
    Just the people who came here from Italy probably had sixteen million descendants who are at least, say, a quarter Italian, by 1988.

    Many more descendents than that, for people who came to the USA from Germany.

    Many of them are still 100% Italian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    True.

    Anecdotally, though, many of the Italian-Americans whom we know or have met are mixed Italian with some other white european background, most often Irish or German (though we know an Italian/Polish guy and an Italian/English guy). I’d guess they (we) are more numerous than Americans who are all or almost all Italian, but just a guess.

    Also, some of the folks who considered themselves “all Italian” are getting genetic test results indicating 10-15% Greek and/or Ashkenazi Jewish and/or middle eastern. And these are not Sicilians, but descendants from mainland Italians. Like my mother and two of her cousins thus far.

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  194. @Matra
    In 1980 they were 26.34% of the total population at 49.5 million, and I guess they are all dying off because in the 2010 census they were only 8.4% of the population at 26 million. Up 1.5 million from 2000 but still closer to half the number in 1980. That the percentage went down is not surprising (due to immigration and increase in the total) but the population dropping in half in 20 years seems suspicious.

    This is based on subjective self-reporting. The English ancestry is much further back in a typical American's history so it isn't as well remembered as your Irish or German great-grandfather. Bias against 'bland', 'vanilla', 'oppressive' Wasps in the Ellis Islander-dominated media also leads to more vibrant non-Anglo ancestry being self-reported.

    And, no, the Irish did not outnumber the English at any time in the 1800s. If you count the Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots), who are much closer to the English than they are to the native Irish, as exclusively Irish you can maybe get the numbers close. However, given that the Scotch-Irish mostly intermarried with English (and Scottish Lowland) Protestant Americans right up until at least the early 20th century their descendants would be much more Anglo/ Waspy than Irish.

    Have none of you heard of the Potato Famine?

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  195. JJ says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    No offense Daniel, but I don’t think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

     

    Trust me, I think that's dumb.

    Its a more general statement of what constitutes legitimacy. I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that's when it actually engenders respect.

    I think that people just have a very strong "just world" hypothesis; and when the people seem unjust but are rewarded, then they update their beliefs and mental rules so that its a just world once again. Not everyone, but enough.

    I tend to try to live up to Confucian ideals, so obviously boorishness is not what I think should be esteemed. But assuming that the only other option is to go full poz, then some level of chaos still has more vitality and thymos. I think that such contrast is not practical, though, and societal governance in practice is much more about compromise and accepting certain sliding slopes: flying is falling without hitting the ground.

    I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.

    See the below video:

    A man gave up his seat to an elderly Asian woman. While the black mother occupied 2 seats herself, she blamed racism and the old lady for not giving the seat to her daughter.

    Nobody on that train stood up for the Asian woman, no one, all silent. I don’t think people would find respect in that beast, but in the end she got what she wanted. Duke is right, especially in a multicultural and multiracial environment. The Confucius ideals only work among people who share the same ideals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    Nobody on that train stood up for the Asian woman, no one, all silent. I don’t think people would find respect in that beast, but in the end she got what she wanted. Duke is right, especially in a multicultural and multiracial environment. The Confucius ideals only work among people who share the same ideals.
     
    Hopefully they will all go back to China soon.
    , @Bliss
    What do you think of this entitled “beast” JJ?


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=185&v=ZomoNNuBAts
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  196. @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, one does not need to read even that far back - say, any of Needham's memoirs, to see that there was once a far more refined class that wasn't based on acquisition of maximal number of shinies. I can personally testify to this: my grandfather spoke eight languages, wrote a number of poems in both Chinese and French(some which got published) and I have a painting in my house from him, and he did this all while doing his government work(and trying to, and failing to, learn the violin well). I am a paltry shadow of him.

    This is one of the reasons why I get quite weary of nationalistic signaling from Chinese; even with being generous, the Chinese have done as much as anyone else to damage Chinese civilization and culture. This is also why I'm not against the larp-like efforts by the new elite to "learn etiquette" at times; it is cargo culting, but maybe its cargo culting that'll lead somewhere once internalized.

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course. That's obviously corrosive, and seems silly if it even needs to be stated. This was not the way of things and it can only be a loss for humanity if that notion spreads.

    This is because you have let your white wife mess with your brain. Power is the ultimate virtue. In group cohesion serves to buttress Chinese power. Whether it is positive reinforcement by shared values or negative reinforcement via shared enemies, Chinese and by this I mean Han ethnic cohesion must me maximized. The values and group markers that they share are really tangential to this idea are only useful as long as they increase Chinese “distinctiveness” and separateness. I think this is one critical place where we part ways. I have the sneaking suspicion that you are closet liberal seem to get the impression you want China to gradually develop and join the so-called “community” of nations with your talk of shared values and “humanity”. I spit on the entire concept of a community of nations. There are Chinese and there are not Chinese. Ultimately nothing good has ever come with China’s interactions with the outside world and in order to preserve the Chinese race, we must focus inward and isolate ourselves from it. The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed. However, after that the rest of the world can go pound sound because their actions and their opinions one way or another are simply not relevant.

    Read More
    • Agree: DFH
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You want to "preserve" the Chinese race by denigrating the teachings of our ancestors and mimicking low function barbarians not only in part, but in total.

    Quite some preservation.
    , @gmachine1729

    The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed.
     
    Haha, in America, China is often seen as a rogue communist dictatorship that refuses to let its people join the international community. No Google, no Facebook. No political liberalization.

    Reminds me of how in China I once saw Legally Blonde playing on the monitor on the train and also had to deal with two girls singing Justin Bieber. I was still in school, in American culture is the unalienable norm mode, too afraid to offend people, so I guess I didn't think too that much of that, though I already was quite averse to much that was taught in America, with a mindset of Chinese in America should focus on STEM, ignore all the toxic cultural and political garbage. Turns out even in STEM, people naturally feel pressured to assimilate somewhat into this monoculture, with some subconscious fear of denial of advancement otherwise. By doing so, they only make this monoculture even more powerful and subversive.

    How would China go about destroying its presence though? Sounds like you're advocating for hardball pressure from the government against anyone of Chinese descent who succumbs to it. What about trade and scientific/technological exchange more or less indispensable in today's society? Wouldn't aspects of that monoculture necessarily be transmitted as a byproduct of that? If China wants to go on its own terms there, it would have to be stronger and more advanced than the rest of the world. Right now, China is still dependent on outsiders for some critical technologies, which limits her leverage. That may well change in a couple decades time though. By the way, I much subscribe to the view that elite Chinese in STEM should go to Russia or Japan for exchange instead of the US. You get more actual substance and far less "spiritual pollution." See https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/zeldovich-yakov-知乎/. Also, I feel like Chinese should really only go abroad to study and develop expertise on areas that are lacking at home. After all, what's the point of studying abroad when you can master the subject as well or even better at home? There are, of course, those mediocre rich kids going to America for undergrad, what are we gonna do with them? And all those other people who aren't "good enough" who are more susceptible to this cultural infection. I've pretty much always felt that academic mediocrities should be learning some practical skills and doing some manual labor instead wasting their time in bullshit study. Little disgusts me more than a mediocre kid from a well-off family who can't do serious STEM and also isn't willing to do dirty work; those tend to be the easiest subversion tools of this American monoculture you described. I've seen too many of those types, and yes, I regard a Henan peasant as leagues higher than them.
    , @Twinkie

    This is because you have let your white wife mess with your brain.
     
    You are a first class asshole. You are also a coward who insults another man’s wife online. I loathe an unmanly limp-dick like you.

    I try not curse anyone, but you have earned that rare distinction.
    , @Bliss

    I spit on the entire concept of a community of nations. There are Chinese and there are not Chinese. Ultimately nothing good has ever come with China’s interactions with the outside world and in order to preserve the Chinese race, we must focus inward and isolate ourselves from it.
     
    Strong words expressing strong sentiments.

    The Great Wall of China at it’s northern border, the shutting down of Zheng He’s expeditions to Malaya, India, Arabia and Africa after the 7th voyage etc, prove that your sentiments are true to your ancestral heritage.
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  197. DFH says:
    @JJ

    I think that people generally have a mental model of what constitutes appropriate behavior, and then when people break it, they expect the breakers to be punished. When they are not, and actually rewarded, that’s when it actually engenders respect.
     
    See the below video:

    https://youtu.be/MGVizEMvFnE

    A man gave up his seat to an elderly Asian woman. While the black mother occupied 2 seats herself, she blamed racism and the old lady for not giving the seat to her daughter.

    Nobody on that train stood up for the Asian woman, no one, all silent. I don't think people would find respect in that beast, but in the end she got what she wanted. Duke is right, especially in a multicultural and multiracial environment. The Confucius ideals only work among people who share the same ideals.

    Nobody on that train stood up for the Asian woman, no one, all silent. I don’t think people would find respect in that beast, but in the end she got what she wanted. Duke is right, especially in a multicultural and multiracial environment. The Confucius ideals only work among people who share the same ideals.

    Hopefully they will all go back to China soon.

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  198. OK here is the best I have found (which still sucks and isn’t much) to move this conversation forward. Sadly the study seems mostly to be about trying to determine how much black, indian and white DNA is mixed in each US population not picking apart the sources of the European component.

    And we are back to this cheatey “british” BS where we pretend like Irish are the same thing as English.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/09/18/009340.full.pdf

    We estimated proportions of British/Irish, Eastern European, Iberian, and Scandinavian ancestry
    (Figure 3), and other European subpopulation ancestries (Figure S7), and found strong regional
    differences across states reflecting known major historical migrations from Europe. Inferred
    British/Irish ancestry is found in European Americans from all states at mean proportions of
    above 20%, and represents a majority of ancestry, above 50% mean proportion, in states such
    as Missisippi, Arkansas, and Tennessee. We note that these states are similarly highlighted in
    the map of the self-reported “American” ethnicity in the US census survey1, which may reflect
    regions with lower subsequent migration from other parts of Europe. Inferred Eastern European
    ancestry is found at its highest levels in Illinois, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, potentially
    stemming from immigration during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, settling in metropolitan
    areas in the Northeast and Midwest. Inferred Iberian ancestry, found overall at lower mean
    proportions, still represents a measurable ancestry component in Florida, Louisiana, California,
    and Nevada, and may point to the early Spanish rule and colonization of the Americas. Scandinavian
    ancestry in European Americans is highly localized; most states show only trace mean
    proportions of Scandinavian ancestry, while it comprises a significant proportion, upwards of
    10%, of ancestry in European Americans from Minnesota and the Dakotas. The distributions
    of the European subpopulation ancestries in European Americans illustrate that the distribution
    of within-European ancestry is not homogenous among individuals from different states, and
    instead, reflects differences in population migrations and settlement patterns within the US.

    Now, US whites are supposedly about 1% on average Amerindian in this study. So if we are going based on tracing back to “earliest ancestor on the continent irrespective of proportion it makes up among later immigrants” most of us old stock mixed Americans can trace our culture here back to 11,000 BC via Asia.

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  199. @Duke of Qin
    This is because you have let your white wife mess with your brain. Power is the ultimate virtue. In group cohesion serves to buttress Chinese power. Whether it is positive reinforcement by shared values or negative reinforcement via shared enemies, Chinese and by this I mean Han ethnic cohesion must me maximized. The values and group markers that they share are really tangential to this idea are only useful as long as they increase Chinese "distinctiveness" and separateness. I think this is one critical place where we part ways. I have the sneaking suspicion that you are closet liberal seem to get the impression you want China to gradually develop and join the so-called "community" of nations with your talk of shared values and "humanity". I spit on the entire concept of a community of nations. There are Chinese and there are not Chinese. Ultimately nothing good has ever come with China's interactions with the outside world and in order to preserve the Chinese race, we must focus inward and isolate ourselves from it. The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed. However, after that the rest of the world can go pound sound because their actions and their opinions one way or another are simply not relevant.

    You want to “preserve” the Chinese race by denigrating the teachings of our ancestors and mimicking low function barbarians not only in part, but in total.

    Quite some preservation.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Good aesthetic tho.

    I would follow a Duke of Qin counterpart to BAP's brother steppe barbarian Il-Khan Gyatso, would be more interesting than that square Weihan Zhang.
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  200. @utu

    None of this will matter much if selfishness is held as the highest goal, of course.
     
    That is true but etiquette even w/o it being internalized can have a moderating influence just like hypocrisy in Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue.

    As always it all comes down to basic values that may get out of hand like the question of greed you brought up. Our comrade gmachine1729 should be pointing finger at the issue of greed and not Confucianism that he thinks he hates. If Chinese women were not as greedy and ambitious as they sometimes are because of being unrestrained by higher Confucian values perhaps he would not be as miserable as he is and would not be fantasizing about acquiring "hard power" and "exercising it."

    You better watch out if he has his way:


    I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of “getting along” or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas.
     
    BTW, I had worked with the son of Chinese ambassador to Japan before the WWII who came from an aristocratic family. I found it odd and I did not know how to react when he told me at dinner at his home that I was the first person from the corporation we worked for (he was there already over 30 years) that was invited to his home. It seems that I was lucky that most Chinese I run into in my life were very cultured Chinese but they were not form Mainland China. Perhaps that's why I was idealizing Chinese culture as very civil, tactful and refined until I met the rubes like gmachine1729 and a few others here at UR.

    Greed and status ambition properly channeled is not a problem. To rid the Chinese of them is an act of racial disarmament. Instead the direction of their ambition must be redirected and focused in ways more conducive to the long term survival of the ethnos by directing the output of their energies towards ends that maximize power and outgroup antipathy.

    The actual Chinese aristocracy became extinct in the 9th century just so you know. Titles since then have principally been non hereditary. Who you’ve and the West have been actually interacting with have been the comprador classes formed primarily Southern gentry who became more powerful following the Taiping war after the state decayed and retreated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I have scrolls of title given by the Yongle Emperor, and a semi-continuous line all the way to the end of the Qing. You're correct that the mandarins had to be tested in via the Imperial Examination so it was not strictly hereditary, but it was in practice, often hereditary due to only limited number of landowners who could afford to prepare their sons for the exam.

    You should know that, though. Despite the formal end of feudalism, established elite families were a well known aspect of China.
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  201. @Daniel Chieh
    The heyday of what could be called white unity would be the era of imperialism and yet the Ottoman Empire was consistently buttressed by Dutch and later the British. The Chinese would be rather consistently supported by the Germans, who even built dreadnoughts for them and this was before formal Sino-German cooperation. And for that matter, Leo Tolstoy actually supported the Boxers against the Eight Nation Alliance.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory. Watching people try a failed concept over and over again is vaguely amusing.

    Who knows, maybe they'll get it right this time. Hope burns eternal.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.

    Do you just mean that some subgroup is bound to defect in its own self-interest? That’s surely the case. But then it’s a reasonable question as to what is the minimal level of genetic or cultural similarity to provide reasonable confidence against defection.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I imagine that's based on the rewards of defection versus cooperation so its enormously situational.

    You would never defect against yourself, you'd cooperate with yourself even if cooperation meant death because its clearly something you wanted. You may not cooperate with your brother, if cooperation meant death; you probably won't let him just murder you.

    Per the South African whites, cooperation even in spite of shared ethnicity, language and religion seems difficult; they do cooperate to emigrate sometimes, so that much is possible.

    One could see it as a power/organization thing. If defection is punished and cooperation is rewarded consistently, so in small cliquish ethnicities like the Jewish, nepotism mostly works out and outgroup fear/animosity is constantly enflamed. From what I've heard before, there are also financial complexities involved; this same nepotism works against them when they don't have an outgroup to fight with, since then it turns into familial nepotism. You see a pretty extreme version of this with Indians.

    Seems to be a rule of nature to operate by boom/busts.
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  202. DFH says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The heyday of what could be called white unity would be the era of imperialism and yet the Ottoman Empire was consistently buttressed by Dutch and later the British. The Chinese would be rather consistently supported by the Germans, who even built dreadnoughts for them and this was before formal Sino-German cooperation. And for that matter, Leo Tolstoy actually supported the Boxers against the Eight Nation Alliance.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory. Watching people try a failed concept over and over again is vaguely amusing.

    Who knows, maybe they'll get it right this time. Hope burns eternal.

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.

    Any [cooperation] is doomed to fail by the very nature of game theory

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Not if defectors are punished, and the expected value of punishment is greater than the expected profit from defection. This means that any cooperation must include punishments for defectors from the outset.

    The first goal of any functional cooperation is to destroy the defectors. Competition with outsiders is secondary, though of course that’s the rationale for the whole thing in the first place.

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  203. @The Big Red Scary

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.
     
    Do you just mean that some subgroup is bound to defect in its own self-interest? That's surely the case. But then it's a reasonable question as to what is the minimal level of genetic or cultural similarity to provide reasonable confidence against defection.

    I imagine that’s based on the rewards of defection versus cooperation so its enormously situational.

    You would never defect against yourself, you’d cooperate with yourself even if cooperation meant death because its clearly something you wanted. You may not cooperate with your brother, if cooperation meant death; you probably won’t let him just murder you.

    Per the South African whites, cooperation even in spite of shared ethnicity, language and religion seems difficult; they do cooperate to emigrate sometimes, so that much is possible.

    One could see it as a power/organization thing. If defection is punished and cooperation is rewarded consistently, so in small cliquish ethnicities like the Jewish, nepotism mostly works out and outgroup fear/animosity is constantly enflamed. From what I’ve heard before, there are also financial complexities involved; this same nepotism works against them when they don’t have an outgroup to fight with, since then it turns into familial nepotism. You see a pretty extreme version of this with Indians.

    Seems to be a rule of nature to operate by boom/busts.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Betraying your brother (even to save your life) is frowned upon in most human cultures, and I suspect it’s considered a very heinous crime in clannish societies. It might limit marriage options for your children (especially since their marriage partners would be from within the clan), and might draw retribution from the brother’s family or even the whole clan.

    Anyway, such defections do happen, even in clannish societies, but it’s rare. It’s more frequent in less clannish societies.
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  204. @DFH

    Any [color] nationalism is doomed to failure by the very nature of game theory.
     
    Any [cooperation] is doomed to fail by the very nature of game theory

    Not if defectors are punished, and the expected value of punishment is greater than the expected profit from defection. This means that any cooperation must include punishments for defectors from the outset.

    The first goal of any functional cooperation is to destroy the defectors. Competition with outsiders is secondary, though of course that’s the rationale for the whole thing in the first place.

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  205. @Daniel Chieh
    I imagine that's based on the rewards of defection versus cooperation so its enormously situational.

    You would never defect against yourself, you'd cooperate with yourself even if cooperation meant death because its clearly something you wanted. You may not cooperate with your brother, if cooperation meant death; you probably won't let him just murder you.

    Per the South African whites, cooperation even in spite of shared ethnicity, language and religion seems difficult; they do cooperate to emigrate sometimes, so that much is possible.

    One could see it as a power/organization thing. If defection is punished and cooperation is rewarded consistently, so in small cliquish ethnicities like the Jewish, nepotism mostly works out and outgroup fear/animosity is constantly enflamed. From what I've heard before, there are also financial complexities involved; this same nepotism works against them when they don't have an outgroup to fight with, since then it turns into familial nepotism. You see a pretty extreme version of this with Indians.

    Seems to be a rule of nature to operate by boom/busts.

    Betraying your brother (even to save your life) is frowned upon in most human cultures, and I suspect it’s considered a very heinous crime in clannish societies. It might limit marriage options for your children (especially since their marriage partners would be from within the clan), and might draw retribution from the brother’s family or even the whole clan.

    Anyway, such defections do happen, even in clannish societies, but it’s rare. It’s more frequent in less clannish societies.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Right, but that ultimately all requires that organization and structure to be there: a clan to recognize the crime, and a clan to punish the crime. But more importantly, its usually not that extreme and this is where the vast majority of the difficulty comes in. Between some very clannish societies, money is shared and indeed, the notion of "you should steal for your family" is present in parts of Africa. If we take the less extreme version, how often do we share money with family? Are family businesses and partnerships that common as opposed to nonfamilial businesses and partnerships?

    A lot of this is a form of information management: you probably would be more willing to open a business with your son or daughter, you have grown up with him or her. But what about your second cousin? Would you be more likely to cooperate monetarily with him rather than an unrelated friend who may have more experience?

    Who is the grand family patriarch who will smile upon you for taking the risk? If distant relations writes to you asking for money, do we think of them as realistic, or only slightly better than Nigerian scammers?

    , @Lars Porsena
    Nah. The basic principle in clan societies as a quoted many comments above is "I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I, my brother and my cousin against the world". If you betray your brother for yourself, it is understood. He might do the same.

    Now if you betray your brother for your cousin or some foreigner, that would be heinous. But your cousin expects you to screw him for your brother.

    https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/

    Each giant lineage divides into tribal segments, which subdivide into clans, which in turn divide into sub-clans, and so on, down to families, in which cousins may be pitted against cousins or, ultimately, brother against brother. Traditionally existing outside the police powers of the state, Middle Eastern tribes keep order through a complex balance of power between these ever fusing and segmenting ancestral groups.

    The central institution of segmentary tribes is the feud. Security depends on the willingness of every adult male in a given tribal segment to take up arms in its defense. An attack on a lineage-mate must be avenged by the entire group. Likewise, any lineage member is liable to be attacked in revenge for an offense committed by one of his relatives. One result of this system of collective responsibility is that members of Middle Eastern kin groups have a strong interest in policing the behavior of their lineage-mates, since the actions of any one person directly affect the reputation and safety of the entire group.

    ...

    And despite collective guilt and powerful group-based pressures for conformity, anthropologists commonly characterize segmentary tribal systems as intensely individualist, egalitarian, and democratic. This is arguably the central paradox of Middle Eastern social life. Muslim tribal society is both fundamentally collectivist and profoundly individualist. In the absence of state power and formal political hierarchies, no man of the tribe can, by right, command another. All males are equal, free to dispose of their persons and property and to speak in councils that determine the fate of the group

    ...

    In the early 1980s, the brilliant social theorist Ernest Gellner resurrected the cyclical theory of tribe-state relations first suggested by the 14th-century Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun. In Khaldun's theory, outlying tribes tied together by traditional kinship solidarities conquer, settle, and rule a state. In time kinship loyalties loosen, the rulers urbanize and grow effete, their state loses control over distant tribes, and the cycle begins again.

    ...

    Turkmen raiders used to intimidate villagers with the following threat: “I do not have a mill with willow trees. I have a horse and a whip. I will kill you and go.” Salzman uses this threat to illustrate the Turkmen's strong association of tribal nomadism with “freedom.” Yet the freedom in question seems different than what we mean by freedom in a liberal state. Our freedom is rights-based and universal. The freedom Salzman is talking about is the freedom of a freestanding warrior and his tribe to dominate and deprive others of their liberty.
     
    It is long but IMO very interesting and maybe pertains to some of the things you and Daniel are discussing. The crux of it, I think, is toward the end.

    TL;DR:

    I would put it differently. Arab tribal warriors aren't “too egalitarian.” Advocates of race and gender preferences are too egalitarian. Arab tribal warriors aren't “too individualist.” Strict libertarians are too individualist. The equality and autonomy of Arab tribal warriors are closer to what we find in Hobbes's state of nature–the sort of individualism that precedes the social contract, not the individualism that follows it.
     
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  206. @reiner Tor
    Betraying your brother (even to save your life) is frowned upon in most human cultures, and I suspect it’s considered a very heinous crime in clannish societies. It might limit marriage options for your children (especially since their marriage partners would be from within the clan), and might draw retribution from the brother’s family or even the whole clan.

    Anyway, such defections do happen, even in clannish societies, but it’s rare. It’s more frequent in less clannish societies.

    Right, but that ultimately all requires that organization and structure to be there: a clan to recognize the crime, and a clan to punish the crime. But more importantly, its usually not that extreme and this is where the vast majority of the difficulty comes in. Between some very clannish societies, money is shared and indeed, the notion of “you should steal for your family” is present in parts of Africa. If we take the less extreme version, how often do we share money with family? Are family businesses and partnerships that common as opposed to nonfamilial businesses and partnerships?

    A lot of this is a form of information management: you probably would be more willing to open a business with your son or daughter, you have grown up with him or her. But what about your second cousin? Would you be more likely to cooperate monetarily with him rather than an unrelated friend who may have more experience?

    Who is the grand family patriarch who will smile upon you for taking the risk? If distant relations writes to you asking for money, do we think of them as realistic, or only slightly better than Nigerian scammers?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I should add as an ancedote: its extremely common in black communities in the US for vaguely related blacks to ask each other for money. This may help contribute to their clannishness, but is a common reason why dysfunction is persistent: anyone who is successful is instantly hounded by real or presumed family members for cash. This contributes to the entire circle of corruption, a literal culture of gimmedats within and without:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/willie-wilson-gives-away-money-nothing-to-do-with-mayors-race/
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  207. @AaronB

    If you can break the norms, it proves that you’re powerful and ultimately people are drawn to the powerful.
     
    No offense Daniel, but I don't think cutting in line and being loud and boorish is the kind of behavior that impresses people with your alpha status.

    Its more the kind of behavior low status people engage in an angry bid to wrest some share of status from a society that accords them so little of it. There is a reason such behavior has always signalled low status - a high status person has no need to wrestle from society a measure of respect - it is automatically granted.

    A high status person has crowds willingly give way, or he has a special entrance. A low status person angrily cuts in line. A middle class has sufficient status that he need not cut in line in a bid to get some measure of recognition from society.

    There is a reason high status has always been associated with a calm and undemonstrative demeanor - because needing to enforce respect is a measure of your lack of status.

    Donald Trump is not a good example of an Alpha - for one, he is deliberately acting as a vehicle and channel for low status Americans, because they are his power base. So his behavior is crafted to mirror the aspirations of his power base, who are low status people trying to wrestle status from the larger society.

    We can be sure Julius Caesar, Pompey, Pericles, Napoleon - did not act like low status men trying to force society to grant them status through demonstrative displays of low level rule breaking - although obviously they were not bound by societies norms. The question is really one of scale. Petty displays of rule breaking that are demonstrative reinforce perceptions low status. Divorcing your wife when the rest of the country isn't allowed to is high status.

    The above reflections should make clear how Chinese today subconsciously see themselves - as low status underdogs trying to wrestle a measure of status from the world. From that point of view, Quin is quite right that crass and boorish behavior may be the appropriate path to any kind of status in this phase of China's relationship with the world.

    But this behavior does not establish alpha credentials - it make a clear a lack of alpha status. Which, again, may still be the correct way to claim any status.

    Jews were also low status outsiders trying to make a violent bid for status in a society that accorded them so little of it - that's the basis of chutzpah. It is not high status behavior.

    But when you aren't an Alpha, acting like one will get you nowhere - you must employ the tactics of the low status person trying to claim a measure of respect, which is the game version of an Alpha.

    So again - not necessarily criticizing the behavior Quin is defending, just trying to clarify its real social signifucsnce.

    Of course, when your deepest aspiration is to retire to the hills and read Chinese hermit poetry under a full moon, all this social anxiety nonsense is apt to appear rather laughable :)

    But good luck to you guys still caught in the dust of the world.

    You are conflating two separate issues, status and power. Power is primary and status is secondary and derives from the latter. I am sure the Romans found Gothic table manners severely lacking, yet it was Gothic power that won out and Roman civilization that died. Likewise the amusing video JJ shared. The black woman obviously lacked status and the YouTube comments left behind left no doubt as to this. Yet what is the use of tut tutting after the fact when the obvious clear as day truth is that the black woman got her way and none of the other high status individuals did anything. Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield. Sure it will eventually become a ruin, but blacks win and whites lose. You see in the macro level as South Africa is gradually ethnically cleansed of whites, yet the same refugees from the black tide are usually the first to make excuses for the blacks that ethnically cleansed them! Another case in point, when Cortez in responding to Charles V criticism of the excesses of the ecomienda system responded that maybe such an enlightenment policy would be possible if the majority of the Spanish colonialists were like the good noble friars, but it wasn’t possible because the majority of the Spaniards were of low quality, violent, and vicious and if given more free interaction with the natives were likely to convert them to European vices. It was men such as they that carved out a Spanish Empire across the new world rather than the good burghers.

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

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    • Replies: @gmachine1729
    LOL

    I especially liked

    Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield.
     
    As for

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.
     
    reminds me of the following analogy. That North Korea is a wild dog and South Korea is a domesticated one. Without her master, the domesticated one would be easily subjugated.
    , @DFH

    Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield.
     
    Have you heard of the Boer Republics?

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.
     
    That must be why the Aborigines, Africans and Mesoamericans suceeded in driving Europeans back into the sea. Or why the Gauls and Britons defeated the Romans.
    , @AaronB
    I would not say civility commands respect - civility is a luxury good that can only be afforded by high status people. People whose status is secure enough to not need to use aggression in a daily basis to defend their status.

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility - for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.

    That black woman in the video has nothing in all areas of life that matter - money, status, prestige. Her one ability to extract some measure of status from society is using aggression in trivial situations that don't fundamentally alter her position at the bottom of the heap. Many societies would deny her even that. America's allows its underclass this concession, for some reason.

    Rome was a mighty military empire far longer and more effectively than the Goths. The Romans, like the English, combined civilized and refined manners with cold aggression. And the Goths developed refined manners after they conquered, like all aristocracies.

    In a way, it's a question of scale and focus. I am not denying that aggression and assertiveness are necessary to avoid being exploited - you certainly need those qualities, unfortunately.

    But high status people are able to direct and focus these qualities onto the larger projects that truly secure wealth and power - war, politics, business, where they will indeed be ruthless - while retaining large areas in their life where luxury and refinement and beauty have their place. Since the larger questions of power and wealth are relatively secure, they can even afford kindness and generosity - which used to be known as noblesse oblige.

    It is characteristic of low status people to be immersed in a brutish world of unceasing strife, where tiny scraps of status are constantly fought after ("game" behavior is reminiscent of this). This is also characteristics of high status people in business, war, and politics - again, the difference is one of focus in scale.

    As for whites fleeing when blacks move in, this is precisely because whites have status - they choose a low cost method of preserving their lives of high status rather than fight a pointless turf war with nothing to gain. I think it isn't a viable or healthy long term strategy, but it certainly doesn't prove blacks are able to secure more of the good things in life, status, wealth, prestige, than whites.

    If a black thug threatened me with a knife for 10$ - I, who (theoretically) live well, travel every year, eat at nice restaurants - can hand it over with no loss of status or even sense of loss. It would be an entirely different matter if he was genuinely threatening my ability to lead a life of comfortable high status - if I had something genuine to defend.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that in the world we live in, aggression and assertiveness are to some extent necessary qualities - unfortunately they are, but these things are delimited and focused and coexist with finer things the greater your power and status actually is. Unfocused and diffuse aggression increases the lower your actual power is.

    One of the telltale marks of high status is known as "ease of bearing" - not scowling defensiveness, the mark of the low class man (through no fault if his own, it must be said.)

    In short, the "strong" man is one who is able to deploy aggression in a delimited and focused manner for appropriate self-defense or securing life's necessities, while the "weak" man lacks the secure reserves of power from which to act with patience, restraint, discernment, and judgement - his aggression is unfocused and constant.

    Now, outsiders trying to GAIN status may well have to act differently than those who already have it.

    And then there is the question of values - what kind of life is worth living? One of unfocused brutish aggression? Or one where aggression is used with restraint and judgement to secure the necessary things in life, but not more, and where aggression is used to defend a life of beauty and refinement, not supplant it?

    The proper use of aggression can only be to defend a life of beauty and goodness, not to become a way of life in itself - that is when the tool itself has become the master!
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  208. @Daniel Chieh
    Right, but that ultimately all requires that organization and structure to be there: a clan to recognize the crime, and a clan to punish the crime. But more importantly, its usually not that extreme and this is where the vast majority of the difficulty comes in. Between some very clannish societies, money is shared and indeed, the notion of "you should steal for your family" is present in parts of Africa. If we take the less extreme version, how often do we share money with family? Are family businesses and partnerships that common as opposed to nonfamilial businesses and partnerships?

    A lot of this is a form of information management: you probably would be more willing to open a business with your son or daughter, you have grown up with him or her. But what about your second cousin? Would you be more likely to cooperate monetarily with him rather than an unrelated friend who may have more experience?

    Who is the grand family patriarch who will smile upon you for taking the risk? If distant relations writes to you asking for money, do we think of them as realistic, or only slightly better than Nigerian scammers?

    I should add as an ancedote: its extremely common in black communities in the US for vaguely related blacks to ask each other for money. This may help contribute to their clannishness, but is a common reason why dysfunction is persistent: anyone who is successful is instantly hounded by real or presumed family members for cash. This contributes to the entire circle of corruption, a literal culture of gimmedats within and without:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/willie-wilson-gives-away-money-nothing-to-do-with-mayors-race/

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    • Replies: @iffen
    I strongly disagree, Dan. Generosity is a virtue, whether directed toward one’s group or the world at large with no strings attached. And I don’t see the connection between generosity and corruption.

    On black/white differences, it is my opinion, derived from observations over the years, that blacks will give a prodigal family member many more chances on average than my peeps, even to the extent that they will never sever ties. For example, a drug addict and thief will be put on the road fairly quickly by most in my group, but many blacks will endure and suffer forever, sometimes until the prodigal brings down the entire extended family.

    , @DFH
    Jews, Gujuratis and Quakers manage to borrow money from their relatives with different results.
    , @songbird
    When I was a college student I was once asked for a "loan" of $20 or so by a thirty-something black man stranger on the subway who "forgot his wallet while staying at a friends" and "needed a bus ticket home."

    He wasn't a ghetto black and he did have what seemed to be an out of state accent, but I did not give him the money because getting money from a college kid is like getting blood from a stone and I found it rather galling that he seemed to feel so entitled by society that he would ask a college kid for money. Not that I'd give a bum a dollar now, or ever knew an honest man who "forgot his wallet."
    , @megabar
    There is a theory that in tropical hunter-gatherer societies, generosity is advantageous. There isn't much point to save anything (without freezers), since it'll all rot anyway, and giving away surplus today builds goodwill, so you can borrow tomorrow, if needed. This doesn't work as well in the modern West.
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  209. @reiner Tor
    Betraying your brother (even to save your life) is frowned upon in most human cultures, and I suspect it’s considered a very heinous crime in clannish societies. It might limit marriage options for your children (especially since their marriage partners would be from within the clan), and might draw retribution from the brother’s family or even the whole clan.

    Anyway, such defections do happen, even in clannish societies, but it’s rare. It’s more frequent in less clannish societies.

    Nah. The basic principle in clan societies as a quoted many comments above is “I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I, my brother and my cousin against the world”. If you betray your brother for yourself, it is understood. He might do the same.

    Now if you betray your brother for your cousin or some foreigner, that would be heinous. But your cousin expects you to screw him for your brother.

    https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/

    Each giant lineage divides into tribal segments, which subdivide into clans, which in turn divide into sub-clans, and so on, down to families, in which cousins may be pitted against cousins or, ultimately, brother against brother. Traditionally existing outside the police powers of the state, Middle Eastern tribes keep order through a complex balance of power between these ever fusing and segmenting ancestral groups.

    The central institution of segmentary tribes is the feud. Security depends on the willingness of every adult male in a given tribal segment to take up arms in its defense. An attack on a lineage-mate must be avenged by the entire group. Likewise, any lineage member is liable to be attacked in revenge for an offense committed by one of his relatives. One result of this system of collective responsibility is that members of Middle Eastern kin groups have a strong interest in policing the behavior of their lineage-mates, since the actions of any one person directly affect the reputation and safety of the entire group.

    And despite collective guilt and powerful group-based pressures for conformity, anthropologists commonly characterize segmentary tribal systems as intensely individualist, egalitarian, and democratic. This is arguably the central paradox of Middle Eastern social life. Muslim tribal society is both fundamentally collectivist and profoundly individualist. In the absence of state power and formal political hierarchies, no man of the tribe can, by right, command another. All males are equal, free to dispose of their persons and property and to speak in councils that determine the fate of the group

    In the early 1980s, the brilliant social theorist Ernest Gellner resurrected the cyclical theory of tribe-state relations first suggested by the 14th-century Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun. In Khaldun’s theory, outlying tribes tied together by traditional kinship solidarities conquer, settle, and rule a state. In time kinship loyalties loosen, the rulers urbanize and grow effete, their state loses control over distant tribes, and the cycle begins again.

    Turkmen raiders used to intimidate villagers with the following threat: “I do not have a mill with willow trees. I have a horse and a whip. I will kill you and go.” Salzman uses this threat to illustrate the Turkmen’s strong association of tribal nomadism with “freedom.” Yet the freedom in question seems different than what we mean by freedom in a liberal state. Our freedom is rights-based and universal. The freedom Salzman is talking about is the freedom of a freestanding warrior and his tribe to dominate and deprive others of their liberty.

    It is long but IMO very interesting and maybe pertains to some of the things you and Daniel are discussing. The crux of it, I think, is toward the end.

    TL;DR:

    I would put it differently. Arab tribal warriors aren’t “too egalitarian.” Advocates of race and gender preferences are too egalitarian. Arab tribal warriors aren’t “too individualist.” Strict libertarians are too individualist. The equality and autonomy of Arab tribal warriors are closer to what we find in Hobbes’s state of nature–the sort of individualism that precedes the social contract, not the individualism that follows it.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    A very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.
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  210. @Duke of Qin
    This is because you have let your white wife mess with your brain. Power is the ultimate virtue. In group cohesion serves to buttress Chinese power. Whether it is positive reinforcement by shared values or negative reinforcement via shared enemies, Chinese and by this I mean Han ethnic cohesion must me maximized. The values and group markers that they share are really tangential to this idea are only useful as long as they increase Chinese "distinctiveness" and separateness. I think this is one critical place where we part ways. I have the sneaking suspicion that you are closet liberal seem to get the impression you want China to gradually develop and join the so-called "community" of nations with your talk of shared values and "humanity". I spit on the entire concept of a community of nations. There are Chinese and there are not Chinese. Ultimately nothing good has ever come with China's interactions with the outside world and in order to preserve the Chinese race, we must focus inward and isolate ourselves from it. The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed. However, after that the rest of the world can go pound sound because their actions and their opinions one way or another are simply not relevant.

    The presence of an ever increasingly intrusive and ever increasingly subversive American monoculture makes this difficult, so it must be destroyed.

    Haha, in America, China is often seen as a rogue communist dictatorship that refuses to let its people join the international community. No Google, no Facebook. No political liberalization.

    Reminds me of how in China I once saw Legally Blonde playing on the monitor on the train and also had to deal with two girls singing Justin Bieber. I was still in school, in American culture is the unalienable norm mode, too afraid to offend people, so I guess I didn’t think too that much of that, though I already was quite averse to much that was taught in America, with a mindset of Chinese in America should focus on STEM, ignore all the toxic cultural and political garbage. Turns out even in STEM, people naturally feel pressured to assimilate somewhat into this monoculture, with some subconscious fear of denial of advancement otherwise. By doing so, they only make this monoculture even more powerful and subversive.

    How would China go about destroying its presence though? Sounds like you’re advocating for hardball pressure from the government against anyone of Chinese descent who succumbs to it. What about trade and scientific/technological exchange more or less indispensable in today’s society? Wouldn’t aspects of that monoculture necessarily be transmitted as a byproduct of that? If China wants to go on its own terms there, it would have to be stronger and more advanced than the rest of the world. Right now, China is still dependent on outsiders for some critical technologies, which limits her leverage. That may well change in a couple decades time though. By the way, I much subscribe to the view that elite Chinese in STEM should go to Russia or Japan for exchange instead of the US. You get more actual substance and far less “spiritual pollution.” See https://gmachine1729.com/quotes/zeldovich-yakov-知乎/. Also, I feel like Chinese should really only go abroad to study and develop expertise on areas that are lacking at home. After all, what’s the point of studying abroad when you can master the subject as well or even better at home? There are, of course, those mediocre rich kids going to America for undergrad, what are we gonna do with them? And all those other people who aren’t “good enough” who are more susceptible to this cultural infection. I’ve pretty much always felt that academic mediocrities should be learning some practical skills and doing some manual labor instead wasting their time in bullshit study. Little disgusts me more than a mediocre kid from a well-off family who can’t do serious STEM and also isn’t willing to do dirty work; those tend to be the easiest subversion tools of this American monoculture you described. I’ve seen too many of those types, and yes, I regard a Henan peasant as leagues higher than them.

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  211. @Duke of Qin
    You are conflating two separate issues, status and power. Power is primary and status is secondary and derives from the latter. I am sure the Romans found Gothic table manners severely lacking, yet it was Gothic power that won out and Roman civilization that died. Likewise the amusing video JJ shared. The black woman obviously lacked status and the YouTube comments left behind left no doubt as to this. Yet what is the use of tut tutting after the fact when the obvious clear as day truth is that the black woman got her way and none of the other high status individuals did anything. Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield. Sure it will eventually become a ruin, but blacks win and whites lose. You see in the macro level as South Africa is gradually ethnically cleansed of whites, yet the same refugees from the black tide are usually the first to make excuses for the blacks that ethnically cleansed them! Another case in point, when Cortez in responding to Charles V criticism of the excesses of the ecomienda system responded that maybe such an enlightenment policy would be possible if the majority of the Spanish colonialists were like the good noble friars, but it wasn't possible because the majority of the Spaniards were of low quality, violent, and vicious and if given more free interaction with the natives were likely to convert them to European vices. It was men such as they that carved out a Spanish Empire across the new world rather than the good burghers.

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

    LOL

    I especially liked

    Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield.

    As for

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

    reminds me of the following analogy. That North Korea is a wild dog and South Korea is a domesticated one. Without her master, the domesticated one would be easily subjugated.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    He is completely wrong, though, as all the historical examples like the American south are examples of interventionist states protecting the blacks from the whites. Otherwise the only examples of blacks winning are when the numbers are overwhelming like Haiti, Rhodesia etc.

    White flight is a consequence of the state siding against whites and it would not happen in the absence of that state as whites could organize themselves and beat the blacks. The United States and the Western world in general suffers from a kind of an autoimmune disease where the majority ethnic group is viewed by the state elites as dangerous as it's the only one who could actually rebel against the state and win. Minorities aren't viewed as a threat to the elites so the state doesn't care if they organize and at a local level this gives a massive advantage to minorities. Whites cannot use their advantage in organization because the state thinks any white organization is the most dangerous thing in the world and crushes it.

    You can see a different dynamic in the US when it's Hispanics vs blacks. Hispanics are a bit like a slightly lower intelligence version of whites, still smarter and more capable of organizing themselves than blacks, and since the state doesn't really take a side in their disputes you're seeing Hispanic migrants ethnically cleansing formerly black neighborhoods. Similarly blacks don't tend to take over chinatowns - the state doesn't take a side so the smarter, more organized Chinese have a massive advantage over the blacks.
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  212. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I should add as an ancedote: its extremely common in black communities in the US for vaguely related blacks to ask each other for money. This may help contribute to their clannishness, but is a common reason why dysfunction is persistent: anyone who is successful is instantly hounded by real or presumed family members for cash. This contributes to the entire circle of corruption, a literal culture of gimmedats within and without:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/willie-wilson-gives-away-money-nothing-to-do-with-mayors-race/

    I strongly disagree, Dan. Generosity is a virtue, whether directed toward one’s group or the world at large with no strings attached. And I don’t see the connection between generosity and corruption.

    On black/white differences, it is my opinion, derived from observations over the years, that blacks will give a prodigal family member many more chances on average than my peeps, even to the extent that they will never sever ties. For example, a drug addict and thief will be put on the road fairly quickly by most in my group, but many blacks will endure and suffer forever, sometimes until the prodigal brings down the entire extended family.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Generosity is a virtue, but when it is demanded/forced from you, it can be stifling against accomplishment. I'll give you an actual example - I knew this black guy who worked with me, I think I had to train him on some things. He was okay, clearly an affirmative-action hire in some ways but a decent guy, put in some effort, at least came to work and did the minimum. So he got a decent professional salary.

    He actually cared for his community. He volunteered to talk to teenagers released from prison, tried to get them to stop doing drugs, and not to pop out babies with random women(or to be fathers to the ones that they had). He didn't have much luck, but such is life.

    But because he had "money", he immediately had hangers on for the most ridiculous reasons. I remember once at work, a woman who might be his sister's friend called him because she couldn't make the payment on her Mercedes and demanded a thousand from him. Or some guy dumped his truck on his front lawn because "you should help a brudda out" and he lacked parking space of his own. No such a thing as an undestroyed commons, and an immense lack of respect for "personal space" of any sort.

    I don't know what happened to him, but I didn't sense that he should have any ambition. If all that happens if he makes money is that others push him into giving it to them, what's the point?
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  213. iffen says:

    Thor’s last comment at Unz was on 08/10.

    Rosie’s last comment was on 08/09.

    Just making an observation.

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  214. Anon[300] • Disclaimer says:

    Duke Of Qin is right Daniel just wants to get along with his wife’s family, lol a Hebrew name like Daniel.

    Daniel the Yellow Jew is right about the need for moderation & civility in a society, but reality is that elite is formed by men with the incentive to Lord over people.

    New elite can form only by crushing other people the way Mao crushed chinese.

    Fact is that the genocide of white americans is necessary for saving the world from africa

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  215. @Lars Porsena
    Nah. The basic principle in clan societies as a quoted many comments above is "I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I, my brother and my cousin against the world". If you betray your brother for yourself, it is understood. He might do the same.

    Now if you betray your brother for your cousin or some foreigner, that would be heinous. But your cousin expects you to screw him for your brother.

    https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/

    Each giant lineage divides into tribal segments, which subdivide into clans, which in turn divide into sub-clans, and so on, down to families, in which cousins may be pitted against cousins or, ultimately, brother against brother. Traditionally existing outside the police powers of the state, Middle Eastern tribes keep order through a complex balance of power between these ever fusing and segmenting ancestral groups.

    The central institution of segmentary tribes is the feud. Security depends on the willingness of every adult male in a given tribal segment to take up arms in its defense. An attack on a lineage-mate must be avenged by the entire group. Likewise, any lineage member is liable to be attacked in revenge for an offense committed by one of his relatives. One result of this system of collective responsibility is that members of Middle Eastern kin groups have a strong interest in policing the behavior of their lineage-mates, since the actions of any one person directly affect the reputation and safety of the entire group.

    ...

    And despite collective guilt and powerful group-based pressures for conformity, anthropologists commonly characterize segmentary tribal systems as intensely individualist, egalitarian, and democratic. This is arguably the central paradox of Middle Eastern social life. Muslim tribal society is both fundamentally collectivist and profoundly individualist. In the absence of state power and formal political hierarchies, no man of the tribe can, by right, command another. All males are equal, free to dispose of their persons and property and to speak in councils that determine the fate of the group

    ...

    In the early 1980s, the brilliant social theorist Ernest Gellner resurrected the cyclical theory of tribe-state relations first suggested by the 14th-century Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun. In Khaldun's theory, outlying tribes tied together by traditional kinship solidarities conquer, settle, and rule a state. In time kinship loyalties loosen, the rulers urbanize and grow effete, their state loses control over distant tribes, and the cycle begins again.

    ...

    Turkmen raiders used to intimidate villagers with the following threat: “I do not have a mill with willow trees. I have a horse and a whip. I will kill you and go.” Salzman uses this threat to illustrate the Turkmen's strong association of tribal nomadism with “freedom.” Yet the freedom in question seems different than what we mean by freedom in a liberal state. Our freedom is rights-based and universal. The freedom Salzman is talking about is the freedom of a freestanding warrior and his tribe to dominate and deprive others of their liberty.
     
    It is long but IMO very interesting and maybe pertains to some of the things you and Daniel are discussing. The crux of it, I think, is toward the end.

    TL;DR:

    I would put it differently. Arab tribal warriors aren't “too egalitarian.” Advocates of race and gender preferences are too egalitarian. Arab tribal warriors aren't “too individualist.” Strict libertarians are too individualist. The equality and autonomy of Arab tribal warriors are closer to what we find in Hobbes's state of nature–the sort of individualism that precedes the social contract, not the individualism that follows it.
     

    A very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

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  216. DFH says:
    @Duke of Qin
    You are conflating two separate issues, status and power. Power is primary and status is secondary and derives from the latter. I am sure the Romans found Gothic table manners severely lacking, yet it was Gothic power that won out and Roman civilization that died. Likewise the amusing video JJ shared. The black woman obviously lacked status and the YouTube comments left behind left no doubt as to this. Yet what is the use of tut tutting after the fact when the obvious clear as day truth is that the black woman got her way and none of the other high status individuals did anything. Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield. Sure it will eventually become a ruin, but blacks win and whites lose. You see in the macro level as South Africa is gradually ethnically cleansed of whites, yet the same refugees from the black tide are usually the first to make excuses for the blacks that ethnically cleansed them! Another case in point, when Cortez in responding to Charles V criticism of the excesses of the ecomienda system responded that maybe such an enlightenment policy would be possible if the majority of the Spanish colonialists were like the good noble friars, but it wasn't possible because the majority of the Spaniards were of low quality, violent, and vicious and if given more free interaction with the natives were likely to convert them to European vices. It was men such as they that carved out a Spanish Empire across the new world rather than the good burghers.

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

    Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield.

    Have you heard of the Boer Republics?

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

    That must be why the Aborigines, Africans and Mesoamericans suceeded in driving Europeans back into the sea. Or why the Gauls and Britons defeated the Romans.

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  217. @gmachine1729
    YES, YES, YES!!!!

    Especially now that China has the hard power and money to back it up, with the trend there even more to her favor. I fucking hate the liberal Chinese cucks in America who might engage in activism but dare not challenge American social and political norms, which is at the root of the problem. Chinese should feel none the worse for aggressively promoting the Chinese historical and political narrative internationally. If people don't like it, too bad. Use your economic power to punish them accordingly as much as you can get away with. Do what China is doing now to businesses and institution which present Taiwan as separate, just at a much higher intensity. I fucking hate those Chinese who appease so easily to the bullshit falsified American version of history for the sake of "getting along" or advancing their career overseas. The Chinese government should absolutely set up a commission for targeting the relatives at home of political undesirables overseas. Send the clear message that if you're Chinese by blood, what you do and what you say is necessarily tied to the collective interest of 1.4 billion people at home, which means that you must take responsibility even if you emigrate. I just learned that the guy leading activism against discrimination against Asian-Americans in US college admissions is actually a liberal who speaks highly of "freedom and democracy." He specifically wrote this in https://www.backchina.com/blog/336483/article-204672.html, and also that his family had difficulties with both the KMT in the 40s and the Maoist left during the Cultural Revolution.

    Do you have Weibo by the way? I just started one, with the same handle as here, you can easily find me.

    Sorry no weibo nor wechat. I don’t use any social media period. I value my privacy so like the itinerant scholars of yore, I wander here and there dispensing my thoughts occasionally.

    Well actually I have to correct myself, I do have an account on YouTube that was started as another online backup for my collection of taolibei competition videos that I also kept stored on BaiduYun.

    One of my favourite dancers. And Daniel has the cheek to say I advocate barbarism. Beauty can only be defended by savagery, just because I prioritize survival doesn’t mean I eschew everything else.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I do not disagree that beauty must be defended by savagery at times. But it is important not to confuse the means with the ends.
    , @gmachine1729
    I tried BaiduYun and it was not that good. Weiyun is much better.
    , @gmachine1729
    Is there any channel through which I can talk with you in private? I'm thoroughly impressed with your historical and cultural erudition. I'm more or less convinced that there's no way you are a troll.
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  218. AaronB says:
    @Duke of Qin
    You are conflating two separate issues, status and power. Power is primary and status is secondary and derives from the latter. I am sure the Romans found Gothic table manners severely lacking, yet it was Gothic power that won out and Roman civilization that died. Likewise the amusing video JJ shared. The black woman obviously lacked status and the YouTube comments left behind left no doubt as to this. Yet what is the use of tut tutting after the fact when the obvious clear as day truth is that the black woman got her way and none of the other high status individuals did anything. Disparate communities of blacks and whites when placed in proximity without the presence of an interventionist states always ends in one way, with whites fleeing for the hills and blacks left in command of the battlefield. Sure it will eventually become a ruin, but blacks win and whites lose. You see in the macro level as South Africa is gradually ethnically cleansed of whites, yet the same refugees from the black tide are usually the first to make excuses for the blacks that ethnically cleansed them! Another case in point, when Cortez in responding to Charles V criticism of the excesses of the ecomienda system responded that maybe such an enlightenment policy would be possible if the majority of the Spanish colonialists were like the good noble friars, but it wasn't possible because the majority of the Spaniards were of low quality, violent, and vicious and if given more free interaction with the natives were likely to convert them to European vices. It was men such as they that carved out a Spanish Empire across the new world rather than the good burghers.

    The civility you imagine that commands respect is actually the result of human domestication. Domesticated animals always lose out to their wild counterparts when exposed to open competition.

    I would not say civility commands respect – civility is a luxury good that can only be afforded by high status people. People whose status is secure enough to not need to use aggression in a daily basis to defend their status.

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility – for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.

    That black woman in the video has nothing in all areas of life that matter – money, status, prestige. Her one ability to extract some measure of status from society is using aggression in trivial situations that don’t fundamentally alter her position at the bottom of the heap. Many societies would deny her even that. America’s allows its underclass this concession, for some reason.

    Rome was a mighty military empire far longer and more effectively than the Goths. The Romans, like the English, combined civilized and refined manners with cold aggression. And the Goths developed refined manners after they conquered, like all aristocracies.

    In a way, it’s a question of scale and focus. I am not denying that aggression and assertiveness are necessary to avoid being exploited – you certainly need those qualities, unfortunately.

    But high status people are able to direct and focus these qualities onto the larger projects that truly secure wealth and power – war, politics, business, where they will indeed be ruthless – while retaining large areas in their life where luxury and refinement and beauty have their place. Since the larger questions of power and wealth are relatively secure, they can even afford kindness and generosity – which used to be known as noblesse oblige.

    It is characteristic of low status people to be immersed in a brutish world of unceasing strife, where tiny scraps of status are constantly fought after (“game” behavior is reminiscent of this). This is also characteristics of high status people in business, war, and politics – again, the difference is one of focus in scale.

    As for whites fleeing when blacks move in, this is precisely because whites have status – they choose a low cost method of preserving their lives of high status rather than fight a pointless turf war with nothing to gain. I think it isn’t a viable or healthy long term strategy, but it certainly doesn’t prove blacks are able to secure more of the good things in life, status, wealth, prestige, than whites.

    If a black thug threatened me with a knife for 10$ – I, who (theoretically) live well, travel every year, eat at nice restaurants – can hand it over with no loss of status or even sense of loss. It would be an entirely different matter if he was genuinely threatening my ability to lead a life of comfortable high status – if I had something genuine to defend.

    I’m not disagreeing with you that in the world we live in, aggression and assertiveness are to some extent necessary qualities – unfortunately they are, but these things are delimited and focused and coexist with finer things the greater your power and status actually is. Unfocused and diffuse aggression increases the lower your actual power is.

    One of the telltale marks of high status is known as “ease of bearing” – not scowling defensiveness, the mark of the low class man (through no fault if his own, it must be said.)

    In short, the “strong” man is one who is able to deploy aggression in a delimited and focused manner for appropriate self-defense or securing life’s necessities, while the “weak” man lacks the secure reserves of power from which to act with patience, restraint, discernment, and judgement – his aggression is unfocused and constant.

    Now, outsiders trying to GAIN status may well have to act differently than those who already have it.

    And then there is the question of values – what kind of life is worth living? One of unfocused brutish aggression? Or one where aggression is used with restraint and judgement to secure the necessary things in life, but not more, and where aggression is used to defend a life of beauty and refinement, not supplant it?

    The proper use of aggression can only be to defend a life of beauty and goodness, not to become a way of life in itself – that is when the tool itself has become the master!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    I can't say I am really in disagreement with you except for one particulars area. I don't draw such a clear cut distinction between "high" level aggression and "low" level aggression. Imposing your will against others against their consent is the same either way, the only difference is that the "high" is much more intelligent and tactical in his application of coercion. In any case, I also the doubt the alleged noblesse oblige of high "aggressors". I have the sneaking suspicion that "Great Men" who are heralded in history were every bit as thuggish in their personal lives.
    , @Jaakko Raipala

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility – for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.
     
    A lot of these aristocracies considered civility so important that an insult to a man's honor was a legitimate cause to demand a duel to death...

    Meekness and pacifism were definitely not aristocratic values at the height of European empires. One class of men that the West has definitely lost is the warrior aristocrat of those days who was both educated and rough, men who would fit in well both at a banquet and at a battlefield.

    Now we have upper classes who obsess with shielding their 1.1 children from violence and rough play and almost no Western leaders have combat experience. If they claim to be veterans they most likely had some pencil pushing job far away from actual combat.
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  219. DFH says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I should add as an ancedote: its extremely common in black communities in the US for vaguely related blacks to ask each other for money. This may help contribute to their clannishness, but is a common reason why dysfunction is persistent: anyone who is successful is instantly hounded by real or presumed family members for cash. This contributes to the entire circle of corruption, a literal culture of gimmedats within and without:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/willie-wilson-gives-away-money-nothing-to-do-with-mayors-race/

    Jews, Gujuratis and Quakers manage to borrow money from their relatives with different results.

    Read More
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  220. @iffen
    I strongly disagree, Dan. Generosity is a virtue, whether directed toward one’s group or the world at large with no strings attached. And I don’t see the connection between generosity and corruption.

    On black/white differences, it is my opinion, derived from observations over the years, that blacks will give a prodigal family member many more chances on average than my peeps, even to the extent that they will never sever ties. For example, a drug addict and thief will be put on the road fairly quickly by most in my group, but many blacks will endure and suffer forever, sometimes until the prodigal brings down the entire extended family.

    Generosity is a virtue, but when it is demanded/forced from you, it can be stifling against accomplishment. I’ll give you an actual example – I knew this black guy who worked with me, I think I had to train him on some things. He was okay, clearly an affirmative-action hire in some ways but a decent guy, put in some effort, at least came to work and did the minimum. So he got a decent professional salary.

    He actually cared for his community. He volunteered to talk to teenagers released from prison, tried to get them to stop doing drugs, and not to pop out babies with random women(or to be fathers to the ones that they had). He didn’t have much luck, but such is life.

    But because he had “money”, he immediately had hangers on for the most ridiculous reasons. I remember once at work, a woman who might be his sister’s friend called him because she couldn’t make the payment on her Mercedes and demanded a thousand from him. Or some guy dumped his truck on his front lawn because “you should help a brudda out” and he lacked parking space of his own. No such a thing as an undestroyed commons, and an immense lack of respect for “personal space” of any sort.

    I don’t know what happened to him, but I didn’t sense that he should have any ambition. If all that happens if he makes money is that others push him into giving it to them, what’s the point?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Based solely on the comments here at UNZ, it seems to me that E. Asians have "a problem" with blacks.
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  221. @Duke of Qin
    Sorry no weibo nor wechat. I don't use any social media period. I value my privacy so like the itinerant scholars of yore, I wander here and there dispensing my thoughts occasionally.

    Well actually I have to correct myself, I do have an account on YouTube that was started as another online backup for my collection of taolibei competition videos that I also kept stored on BaiduYun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JxMsvQqpmY

    One of my favourite dancers. And Daniel has the cheek to say I advocate barbarism. Beauty can only be defended by savagery, just because I prioritize survival doesn't mean I eschew everything else.

    I do not disagree that beauty must be defended by savagery at times. But it is important not to confuse the means with the ends.

    Read More
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  222. @AaronB
    I would not say civility commands respect - civility is a luxury good that can only be afforded by high status people. People whose status is secure enough to not need to use aggression in a daily basis to defend their status.

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility - for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.

    That black woman in the video has nothing in all areas of life that matter - money, status, prestige. Her one ability to extract some measure of status from society is using aggression in trivial situations that don't fundamentally alter her position at the bottom of the heap. Many societies would deny her even that. America's allows its underclass this concession, for some reason.

    Rome was a mighty military empire far longer and more effectively than the Goths. The Romans, like the English, combined civilized and refined manners with cold aggression. And the Goths developed refined manners after they conquered, like all aristocracies.

    In a way, it's a question of scale and focus. I am not denying that aggression and assertiveness are necessary to avoid being exploited - you certainly need those qualities, unfortunately.

    But high status people are able to direct and focus these qualities onto the larger projects that truly secure wealth and power - war, politics, business, where they will indeed be ruthless - while retaining large areas in their life where luxury and refinement and beauty have their place. Since the larger questions of power and wealth are relatively secure, they can even afford kindness and generosity - which used to be known as noblesse oblige.

    It is characteristic of low status people to be immersed in a brutish world of unceasing strife, where tiny scraps of status are constantly fought after ("game" behavior is reminiscent of this). This is also characteristics of high status people in business, war, and politics - again, the difference is one of focus in scale.

    As for whites fleeing when blacks move in, this is precisely because whites have status - they choose a low cost method of preserving their lives of high status rather than fight a pointless turf war with nothing to gain. I think it isn't a viable or healthy long term strategy, but it certainly doesn't prove blacks are able to secure more of the good things in life, status, wealth, prestige, than whites.

    If a black thug threatened me with a knife for 10$ - I, who (theoretically) live well, travel every year, eat at nice restaurants - can hand it over with no loss of status or even sense of loss. It would be an entirely different matter if he was genuinely threatening my ability to lead a life of comfortable high status - if I had something genuine to defend.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that in the world we live in, aggression and assertiveness are to some extent necessary qualities - unfortunately they are, but these things are delimited and focused and coexist with finer things the greater your power and status actually is. Unfocused and diffuse aggression increases the lower your actual power is.

    One of the telltale marks of high status is known as "ease of bearing" - not scowling defensiveness, the mark of the low class man (through no fault if his own, it must be said.)

    In short, the "strong" man is one who is able to deploy aggression in a delimited and focused manner for appropriate self-defense or securing life's necessities, while the "weak" man lacks the secure reserves of power from which to act with patience, restraint, discernment, and judgement - his aggression is unfocused and constant.

    Now, outsiders trying to GAIN status may well have to act differently than those who already have it.

    And then there is the question of values - what kind of life is worth living? One of unfocused brutish aggression? Or one where aggression is used with restraint and judgement to secure the necessary things in life, but not more, and where aggression is used to defend a life of beauty and refinement, not supplant it?

    The proper use of aggression can only be to defend a life of beauty and goodness, not to become a way of life in itself - that is when the tool itself has become the master!

    I can’t say I am really in disagreement with you except for one particulars area. I don’t draw such a clear cut distinction between “high” level aggression and “low” level aggression. Imposing your will against others against their consent is the same either way, the only difference is that the “high” is much more intelligent and tactical in his application of coercion. In any case, I also the doubt the alleged noblesse oblige of high “aggressors”. I have the sneaking suspicion that “Great Men” who are heralded in history were every bit as thuggish in their personal lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Definitely some truth in that. Some 18th century British aristocrat said in order to be great you must be bad - and my experience confirms this.

    Which in my view, devalues greatness - it isn't an aristocracy of talent.

    I'd much rather use aggression in a limited fashion to defend the good and the beautiful in life.

    It is a question of what kind of life is worth living. Using aggression to avoid exploitation is one thing - but once that's taken care of there are better things to pay attention to.
    , @Anon
    Yup nerds writing about them a century later will leave out the forceful romps with the peasent girls.

    There have been truly noble men but constant invasion and destruction selects for the type ready to deploy violence in a heartbeat.
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  223. @Duke of Qin
    No, the new huge wave of Chinese outbound tourism over the last decade is primarily composed of China's new middle class, arrivistes who either grew up on the collective farms or at most half a generation removed from them. Their déclassé and "rustic" manners are irritating to the globo-American bourgeoisie and the third world anglophone compradors that ape them in all things.

    This huge gap in values and behavior simply means Chinese travellers don't give a shit and the people who hate them are all the more infuriated because their none too subtle condescension is blithely ignored.

    To give you a visual metaphor for this phenomenon simply look at contemporary Western middle class tastes that run towards Scandinavian and Mid-century modern decor. In other words Ikea.

    https://info.ikea-usa.com/moving/living-room

    Contemporary Chinese tastes runs toward something that looks like a mix between a Casino lobby and Versaille.

    http://www.joseslifeetc.com/style-of-china-interior/wonderful-traditional-luxury-and-sexy-chinese-living-room-design-ideas/

    I'm not joking with you, that is how middle class Chinese prefer to decorate their homes, complete with the mirror finished refletive flooring.

    People in the Ikea camp look down on the people who like the latter as "tacky" or "unrefined". The people who prefer the latter dont care and like what they like, which is simply their idea of "European bling".

    Bad example. IKEA is prole and lower middle class, for the people who can’t afford to spend on taste. There is no “IKEA camp” of taste and going within miles of any chain store or buying mass produced is declassé.

    Status conscious Europeans with money want uniqueness like furniture from an antique trader or a handcraft by a contemporary designer. Ideally they want a home where everything is a unique design that you can’t find anywhere else, including the house which will be a unique design by an architect with name recognition, it will be decorated with paintings by artists with name recognition and so on.

    If they’re old money they’ll have portraits of ancestors by dead artists with name recognition. New money is at a disadvantage in status and I guess one reason the tastes of Chinese and Russian rich have gone off the rails in gaudiness is because after communist revolutions there was no old money class to set an example of style.

    Europe and America also have a strange new class of low income but status conscious people. They’re where baizuo comes from. Since they don’t have money to spend on status they signal with the political and moral beliefs of the upper class and by expressing contempt for the tastes and desires of common people. It’s an attempt at increasing your status by avoiding things that low status people would do (like going to IKEA) while not being able to afford the things that high status people can afford.

    Consumer wealth is new in China and there are still dirt poor peasants so merely being able to buy stuff is still a show of status. This will change and then what you’re buying will start mattering more for status like it does in the West. It will be a sign of low status to buy certain things.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gmachine1729
    Duke of Qin, what are your thoughts on nouveau Chinese rich buying necessarily Western luxury items (cars, fashion, etc) for status? See, the thing with those nouveau Chinese rich is that they lack refinement. Maybe I'm biased, but I still associate refinement much with brains and scholarship. A top Chinese STEM PhD/prof well versed in classical Chinese history and literature too is the epitome of that. Those types are well-off but seldom rich, but they will always have more real status and class in my eyes than some random successful businessman in China.

    What I find rather disgusting is superficial Westernization of Chinese for perceived status. It's a mark of poor taste and judgment. Plenty of Chinese parents in the US don't really teach their kids the Chinese language, want them to focus on English and become American. They are delusional if they believe their kids will become genuine Americans that way. Now the tension between the Americanized Chinese and the Chinese Chinese. On Weibo, somebody wrote: 美国的烂香蕉我们还不要呢,直接送到非洲种田去!

    Face it. Cutting cultural ties with 1.4 billion people of shared blood backed by a powerful regime for the sake of short term economic and social gains is a pretty stupid move. You are literally throwing away access to an extremely powerful homogeneous group that you are intrinsically bound to for a fake belonging to a culturally incoherent identity that will only support you to the extent that you are useful as a propaganda/subversion tool.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Moscow hipsters love IKEA. It was at least understandable before 2014, but its very hard to fathom now that it's actually more expensive than quality Belorussian furniture.
    , @Twinkie

    IKEA is prole and lower middle class, for the people who can’t afford to spend on taste. There is no “IKEA camp” of taste and going within miles of any chain store or buying mass produced is declassé.

    Status conscious Europeans with money want uniqueness like furniture from an antique trader or a handcraft by a contemporary designer. Ideally they want a home where everything is a unique design that you can’t find anywhere else
     
    Right on the money. In fact, claiming IKEA as some sort of a taste maker in the West just shows the one making that assertion has no clue how upper crust whites live.

    My wife comes from an old WASP family. When she and I were first married and starting out after college, we did buy mostly IKEA furniture, because we were very frugal and didn’t have much cash on hand.

    After we sold off the business she and I grew and semi-retired and moved to our current house, my wife bought a lot handmade furniture made of natural cherry, walnut, mahogany, and tiger maple, accented with more exotic wood. All unique pieces (but not ornate; Craftsman style). She even custom ordered stuff for our kids - even the little ones. They were made so strong (hardwood, dovetailed joints, etc.) that you could pull out the drawers, stand in them, jump and won’t break.

    About the same time she inherited from her grandparents antique furniture and Persian rugs (we have quite old Bidjars, Isfahans, Sarouks, and a couple of tribal stuff) all passed down from her pre-Depression banker great grandfather to his son and thence to my wife. I added some things I inherited - calligraphy and seasonal nature portraits done by old East Asian masters as well as Asian antique furniture that’s been in my family a long time.

    People who are not of the socio-economic class we are who visit our house say it looks like a museum.

    Interestingly, my wife’s parents have a very different style - lots of glass walls and minimalist. Their house is very Contemporary. So they kinda rebelled against their parents. I guess my wife rebelled against that and returned to her grandparents’ aesthetics.
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  224. @Duke of Qin
    Sorry no weibo nor wechat. I don't use any social media period. I value my privacy so like the itinerant scholars of yore, I wander here and there dispensing my thoughts occasionally.

    Well actually I have to correct myself, I do have an account on YouTube that was started as another online backup for my collection of taolibei competition videos that I also kept stored on BaiduYun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JxMsvQqpmY

    One of my favourite dancers. And Daniel has the cheek to say I advocate barbarism. Beauty can only be defended by savagery, just because I prioritize survival doesn't mean I eschew everything else.

    I tried BaiduYun and it was not that good. Weiyun is much better.

    Read More
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  225. AaronB says:
    @Duke of Qin
    I can't say I am really in disagreement with you except for one particulars area. I don't draw such a clear cut distinction between "high" level aggression and "low" level aggression. Imposing your will against others against their consent is the same either way, the only difference is that the "high" is much more intelligent and tactical in his application of coercion. In any case, I also the doubt the alleged noblesse oblige of high "aggressors". I have the sneaking suspicion that "Great Men" who are heralded in history were every bit as thuggish in their personal lives.

    Definitely some truth in that. Some 18th century British aristocrat said in order to be great you must be bad – and my experience confirms this.

    Which in my view, devalues greatness – it isn’t an aristocracy of talent.

    I’d much rather use aggression in a limited fashion to defend the good and the beautiful in life.

    It is a question of what kind of life is worth living. Using aggression to avoid exploitation is one thing – but once that’s taken care of there are better things to pay attention to.

    Read More
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  226. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I should add as an ancedote: its extremely common in black communities in the US for vaguely related blacks to ask each other for money. This may help contribute to their clannishness, but is a common reason why dysfunction is persistent: anyone who is successful is instantly hounded by real or presumed family members for cash. This contributes to the entire circle of corruption, a literal culture of gimmedats within and without:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/willie-wilson-gives-away-money-nothing-to-do-with-mayors-race/

    When I was a college student I was once asked for a “loan” of $20 or so by a thirty-something black man stranger on the subway who “forgot his wallet while staying at a friends” and “needed a bus ticket home.”

    He wasn’t a ghetto black and he did have what seemed to be an out of state accent, but I did not give him the money because getting money from a college kid is like getting blood from a stone and I found it rather galling that he seemed to feel so entitled by society that he would ask a college kid for money. Not that I’d give a bum a dollar now, or ever knew an honest man who “forgot his wallet.”

    Read More
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  227. @Jaakko Raipala
    Bad example. IKEA is prole and lower middle class, for the people who can't afford to spend on taste. There is no "IKEA camp" of taste and going within miles of any chain store or buying mass produced is declassé.

    Status conscious Europeans with money want uniqueness like furniture from an antique trader or a handcraft by a contemporary designer. Ideally they want a home where everything is a unique design that you can't find anywhere else, including the house which will be a unique design by an architect with name recognition, it will be decorated with paintings by artists with name recognition and so on.

    If they're old money they'll have portraits of ancestors by dead artists with name recognition. New money is at a disadvantage in status and I guess one reason the tastes of Chinese and Russian rich have gone off the rails in gaudiness is because after communist revolutions there was no old money class to set an example of style.

    Europe and America also have a strange new class of low income but status conscious people. They're where baizuo comes from. Since they don't have money to spend on status they signal with the political and moral beliefs of the upper class and by expressing contempt for the tastes and desires of common people. It's an attempt at increasing your status by avoiding things that low status people would do (like going to IKEA) while not being able to afford the things that high status people can afford.

    Consumer wealth is new in China and there are still dirt poor peasants so merely being able to buy stuff is still a show of status. This will change and then what you're buying will start mattering more for status like it does in the West. It will be a sign of low status to buy certain things.

    Duke of Qin, what are your thoughts on nouveau Chinese rich buying necessarily Western luxury items (cars, fashion, etc) for status? See, the thing with those nouveau Chinese rich is that they lack refinement. Maybe I’m biased, but I still associate refinement much with brains and scholarship. A top Chinese STEM PhD/prof well versed in classical Chinese history and literature too is the epitome of that. Those types are well-off but seldom rich, but they will always have more real status and class in my eyes than some random successful businessman in China.

    What I find rather disgusting is superficial Westernization of Chinese for perceived status. It’s a mark of poor taste and judgment. Plenty of Chinese parents in the US don’t really teach their kids the Chinese language, want them to focus on English and become American. They are delusional if they believe their kids will become genuine Americans that way. Now the tension between the Americanized Chinese and the Chinese Chinese. On Weibo, somebody wrote: 美国的烂香蕉我们还不要呢,直接送到非洲种田去!

    Face it. Cutting cultural ties with 1.4 billion people of shared blood backed by a powerful regime for the sake of short term economic and social gains is a pretty stupid move. You are literally throwing away access to an extremely powerful homogeneous group that you are intrinsically bound to for a fake belonging to a culturally incoherent identity that will only support you to the extent that you are useful as a propaganda/subversion tool.

    Read More
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  228. @AaronB
    I would not say civility commands respect - civility is a luxury good that can only be afforded by high status people. People whose status is secure enough to not need to use aggression in a daily basis to defend their status.

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility - for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.

    That black woman in the video has nothing in all areas of life that matter - money, status, prestige. Her one ability to extract some measure of status from society is using aggression in trivial situations that don't fundamentally alter her position at the bottom of the heap. Many societies would deny her even that. America's allows its underclass this concession, for some reason.

    Rome was a mighty military empire far longer and more effectively than the Goths. The Romans, like the English, combined civilized and refined manners with cold aggression. And the Goths developed refined manners after they conquered, like all aristocracies.

    In a way, it's a question of scale and focus. I am not denying that aggression and assertiveness are necessary to avoid being exploited - you certainly need those qualities, unfortunately.

    But high status people are able to direct and focus these qualities onto the larger projects that truly secure wealth and power - war, politics, business, where they will indeed be ruthless - while retaining large areas in their life where luxury and refinement and beauty have their place. Since the larger questions of power and wealth are relatively secure, they can even afford kindness and generosity - which used to be known as noblesse oblige.

    It is characteristic of low status people to be immersed in a brutish world of unceasing strife, where tiny scraps of status are constantly fought after ("game" behavior is reminiscent of this). This is also characteristics of high status people in business, war, and politics - again, the difference is one of focus in scale.

    As for whites fleeing when blacks move in, this is precisely because whites have status - they choose a low cost method of preserving their lives of high status rather than fight a pointless turf war with nothing to gain. I think it isn't a viable or healthy long term strategy, but it certainly doesn't prove blacks are able to secure more of the good things in life, status, wealth, prestige, than whites.

    If a black thug threatened me with a knife for 10$ - I, who (theoretically) live well, travel every year, eat at nice restaurants - can hand it over with no loss of status or even sense of loss. It would be an entirely different matter if he was genuinely threatening my ability to lead a life of comfortable high status - if I had something genuine to defend.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that in the world we live in, aggression and assertiveness are to some extent necessary qualities - unfortunately they are, but these things are delimited and focused and coexist with finer things the greater your power and status actually is. Unfocused and diffuse aggression increases the lower your actual power is.

    One of the telltale marks of high status is known as "ease of bearing" - not scowling defensiveness, the mark of the low class man (through no fault if his own, it must be said.)

    In short, the "strong" man is one who is able to deploy aggression in a delimited and focused manner for appropriate self-defense or securing life's necessities, while the "weak" man lacks the secure reserves of power from which to act with patience, restraint, discernment, and judgement - his aggression is unfocused and constant.

    Now, outsiders trying to GAIN status may well have to act differently than those who already have it.

    And then there is the question of values - what kind of life is worth living? One of unfocused brutish aggression? Or one where aggression is used with restraint and judgement to secure the necessary things in life, but not more, and where aggression is used to defend a life of beauty and refinement, not supplant it?

    The proper use of aggression can only be to defend a life of beauty and goodness, not to become a way of life in itself - that is when the tool itself has become the master!

    There is a reason every single aristocracy everywhere cultivated civility – for the same reason they bought expensive furs and nice furniture. Civility is an inherently desirable thing, but one must be able to afford it.

    A lot of these aristocracies considered civility so important that an insult to a man’s honor was a legitimate cause to demand a duel to death…

    Meekness and pacifism were definitely not aristocratic values at the height of European empires. One class of men that the West has definitely lost is the warrior aristocrat of those days who was both educated and rough, men who would fit in well both at a banquet and at a battlefield.

    Now we have upper classes who obsess with shielding their 1.1 children from violence and rough play and almost no Western leaders have combat experience. If they claim to be veterans they most likely had some pencil pushing job far away from actual combat.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosie

    Now we have upper classes who obsess with shielding their 1.1 children from violence and rough play and almost no Western leaders have combat experience. If they claim to be veterans they most likely had some pencil pushing job far away from actual combat.
     
    I take pride in my ability to shut my pie hole about my boys playing rough with Dad and each other. It's not easy at all, but doable if you're determined.
    , @AaronB
    I agree. The masculine ideal should be the refined and educated warrior, like the Samurai or the European knight or even aristocratic officer of latter days.

    That's why today's ideal of "toxic masculinity" esp in America seems so mistaken - somehow, we've taken the low status male ideal as the norm.

    Traditional societies melded the so-called feminine and masculine qualities into one complete package - the fierce Samurai who quoted poetry, the gentle Knight. Today, there is an extreme "atomization" of qualities as it were - either a complete effeminate nerd, or a brutish oaf. Take your pick.

    It seems the watchword of modern times truly is a kind of dis-aggregation, de-synthesis, atomization - we sperate and break down, we do not build up and synthesize.
    , @Twinkie

    One class of men that the West has definitely lost is the warrior aristocrat of those days who was both educated and rough, men who would fit in well both at a banquet and at a battlefield.
     
    That’s exactly what I’m raising my sons to be - God-fearing, patriotic, warrior-scholars. The awesomely muscular body and the popularity my eldest son has with girls is just a nice bonus. : )
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  229. @Duke of Qin
    Sorry no weibo nor wechat. I don't use any social media period. I value my privacy so like the itinerant scholars of yore, I wander here and there dispensing my thoughts occasionally.

    Well actually I have to correct myself, I do have an account on YouTube that was started as another online backup for my collection of taolibei competition videos that I also kept stored on BaiduYun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JxMsvQqpmY

    One of my favourite dancers. And Daniel has the cheek to say I advocate barbarism. Beauty can only be defended by savagery, just because I prioritize survival doesn't mean I eschew everything else.

    Is there any channel through which I can talk with you in private? I’m thoroughly impressed with your historical and cultural erudition. I’m more or less convinced that there’s no way you are a troll.

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