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Here’s a new Open Thread for the Karlin Community.

— Ron Unz

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Open Thread, Russia 
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  1. SAT SRI AKAAALLUH

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @sher singh

    I see this thread is off to a great start.

    Replies: @A123

    , @china-russia-all-the-way
    @sher singh

    Does the election of Simrajit Singh Mann signal a fresh start for the Khalistan movement in Punjab?

  2. • Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Mikhail

    In the case of the US and India, there is a prospective marriage. The US is a high earning man and the bride is not beautiful. What's in it for the US to marry and extend the vow of guaranteeing war against China if war were to erupt between India and China? It would be ridiculous to not expect India to pay a huge dowry to the US in the form of non-purchase of Iranian and Russian oil in perpetuity. The purchase from alternative sources as far away as Nigeria and Guyana no doubt adds billions of dollars per year to the oil import bill. It is a ceaseless demand for dowry and payments are required every year even after the wedding. By buying Russian oil over the last several months, India has missed a dowry payment. If not back into compliance with the payment schedule, India will be abandoned at the wedding hall.

    If I were India, I would reconsider the marriage and figure out a way to make amends with China. That process starts with recognizing India is the predominant culpable party for provoking the Galwan Valley clashes in 2020 by continuously and unilaterally building up troops in boundary areas including Eastern Ladakh starting in the late 2000s. China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    Replies: @sher singh, @S, @S

    , @Mr, Hack
    @Mikhail

    Mickey, Don't you recognize the guy n the middle? That's you in the middle. The two medics are hauling you off to the nearest nuthouse, where they're rounding up all lunatic kremlin stooges and supporters of Putler. They're' already knocking on your door, can't you hear them? :-)

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Derer

  3. • Replies: @Wielgus
    @Mikhail

    More like a monarchy. You just hand on the baton to the sprog...

  4. Good one –

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/08/12/nato-backed-kiev-regime-resorts-to-nuclear-terrorism/

    NPR propaganda –

    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117141677/russias-long-played-with-u-s-racial-politics-brittney-griner-is-the-latest-examp

    versus reality –

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/08/08/griners-sentence-is-in-line-with-russias-strict-drug-penalties-but-how-long-she-serves-will-be-decided-outside-the-courtroom/

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/08/10/u-s-audacity-on-brittney-griner/

    In the below article, the aforementioned Israeli-American Naama Issacher was released on a presidential pardon, after serving ten months on a drug trafficking charge.

    https://theduran.com/the-worst-and-the-best-of-american-basketball-players/

    Note that some other countries (like Singapore if I’m not mistaken) would’ve given Griner a stiffer sentence. Note that her Russian club team’s coach and teammate openly came to her defense. Were Russia so prejudiced, she wouldn’t be allowed to play there in the first place.

    Michael McFaul’s bigotry is sarcastically and appropriately rebuked –

    Liberals in particular (as well as some conservatives) brought me up on the notion that collective guilt of a given national and/or ethnic group is bigoted. The role of some pro-Bandera elements in nurturing US based anti-Russian bigotry is noted in this article –

    https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/02/27/russia-ukraine-coverage-update-what-western-mass-media-downplays/

    The below Duran discussion notes how Western elites considered it a “right” for Soviet citizens to travel abroad. Now, you’ve folks like the elitist Estonian PM say that travel to the EU is a “privilege”.

    https://theduran.com/eu-prepares-sanctions-package-aimed-at-banning-russian-travel-to-eu-member-states/

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Mikhail

    You write.


    Liberals in particular (as well as some conservatives) brought me up on the notion that collective guilt of a given national and/or ethnic group is bigoted.
     
    Really. Liberals - and others, it must be admitted - promoted the collective guilt of the German nation during and after WWII for their involvement in the Holohoax. The "survivors" of aforesaid Holohoax have been paid many billions by the German State in compensation, which has been used to kill and forcibly expel Palestinians. But, of course, there is no question of the Jewish State accepting collective guilt and paying compensation.

    The fact of the matter is that present day "Liberals" do not regard enforcing collective guilt on certain national or ethnic groups as bigoted. They regard it as perfectly natural. Of course, this does not apply to approved minorities like the Jews - just ask a Palestinian.

    This sort of thing has been going on for many years now, since at least WWI. I accept that 19th Century Liberals would have regarded the notion of collective ethnic guilt as wrong. They were very largely Christian in belief or ethics - so guilt was an induvidual matter, not a collective matter. What passes for modern day Liberalism has little to do with the Liberalism of the past - it's not called Neoliberalism without good reason. So recent demonising of the Serbian and Russian peoples by modern Liberals, inter alia, is unsurprising.

  5. @sher singh
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WdOZiVjLj8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EXSVMTvwBY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNt20oQjnvg

    SAT SRI AKAAALLUH

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Yevardian, @china-russia-all-the-way

    I see this thread is off to a great start.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Yevardian


    I see this thread is off to a great start.
     
    Open Threads allow free discussion, and are thus desirable.

    However, I sometimes wonder if certain posters:

        • Save up their most inflammatory material
        • Stalk for new threads to deliberately maximize offensiveness

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1659801667-20220806.png
     
  6. • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @Mikhail

    The NASA Fire Maps are quite objective. The great majority of hits nowadays are on Russian held territory.

    https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#m:advanced;d:24hrs;l:noaa20-viirs,viirs,modis_a,modis_t,country-outline,landsat_human;@37.8,48.3,7z

  7. china-russia-all-the-way says:
    @Mikhail
    https://twitter.com/ClaudioGP8/status/1558624780684853249

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @Mr, Hack

    In the case of the US and India, there is a prospective marriage. The US is a high earning man and the bride is not beautiful. What’s in it for the US to marry and extend the vow of guaranteeing war against China if war were to erupt between India and China? It would be ridiculous to not expect India to pay a huge dowry to the US in the form of non-purchase of Iranian and Russian oil in perpetuity. The purchase from alternative sources as far away as Nigeria and Guyana no doubt adds billions of dollars per year to the oil import bill. It is a ceaseless demand for dowry and payments are required every year even after the wedding. By buying Russian oil over the last several months, India has missed a dowry payment. If not back into compliance with the payment schedule, India will be abandoned at the wedding hall.

    If I were India, I would reconsider the marriage and figure out a way to make amends with China. That process starts with recognizing India is the predominant culpable party for provoking the Galwan Valley clashes in 2020 by continuously and unilaterally building up troops in boundary areas including Eastern Ladakh starting in the late 2000s. China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    China built that area up in the 80s and India is just responding.

    @songbird Liberalism is a political monotheism, morality arises from war,
    By controlling violence it controls all morality in a territory||

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/973087973266567208/1007245943583805550/C68rEbzWgAE4jG5.jpg


    https://docdro.id/PrsmJ3A



    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    , @S
    @china-russia-all-the-way


    China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.
     
    The emboldened portion of your comment fits in quite well with the emboldened portion below. It's an excerpt from a little known today 1853 US book, The New Rome, which I've commented upon before. The book presents itself as a blueprint for the future conquest of the world by the US/UK in three succinct steps.

    According to this mid-19th century book, after the US and UK have formed a future practically unbeatable united front, and after Germany has been succesfully conquered by them, a move which will have unleashed a 'world's war' upon the Earth, Russia is to be attacked by the United States as the final step prior to ushering in the 'New Rome', the 'United States of the World'.

    [I should note here I am not for this, and this is not intended to 'bash' anyone, Anglo-Saxon, Russian, or, otherwise. I think people should be aware of this practically unknown book and of it's contents, that's all. I see this book as possibly being 'a suggestion' placed in the US public's mind, the same as I see a paralleling and also little known 2006 Russian published book, The Third Empire, which describes a future Russian war with the United States, as also being possibly a deliberate 'suggestion' placed in the minds of the Russian people. It is not impossible, therefore, that both the people of the United States and Russia, are being manipulated into this war against their own respective long term interests.]

    'Russia has expended all her forces in making a formidable display on her Western border. The United States are already digging the trenches for an attack in the rear.' The New Rome; or, the United States of the World (1853) - pg 109
     
    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his 'New Rome' campaign from London. This campaign was to be a final push for the obtainment of total world power by the British Empire.

    Tarpley, whom I've excerpted below, does not mention, however, or, perhaps was unaware, that the co-author of the aforementioned US published New Rome, Theodore Poesche, would also be in London during this very same time.

    Poesche would then proceed on to the United States, and with Charles Goepp, write and have published in short order, The New Rome, a widely distributed and widely reviewed book in the US at the time, which describes step by step just how exactly Palmerston's dream of all encompassing global empire is to be accomplished.

    A NEW ROMAN EMPIRE

    'It is 1850. Lord Palmerston is engaged in a campaign to make London the undisputed center of a new, worldwide Roman Empire. He is attempting to conquer the world in the way that the British have already conquered India, reducing every other nation to the role of a puppet, client, and fall-guy for British imperial policy. Lord Palmerston’s campaign is not a secret. He has declared it here in the Houses of Parliament, saying that wherever in the world a British subject goes, he can flaunt the laws, secure that the British fleet will support him. “Civis Romanus sum, every Briton is a citizen of this new Rome,” thundered Lord Palmerston, and with that, the universal empire was proclaimed.'
     
    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes/page/108/mode/2up

    https://archive.org/details/politicalprophec00goeb/page/n3/mode/2up

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/lord-palmerstons-multicultural-human-zoo/

    https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/177-a-map-of-russias-third-empire-2053/

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @S
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    In my just previous post to you about the 1853 New Rome book and it's indications that the US might possibly use a war with China as a means to also attack Russia's 'backdoor' in Siberia, I'd not mentioned if the book has anything more specific to say about China. It does, and I've excerpted a portion below.

    [Again, I'm not for what this book says, though do think that it's contents should be known, and am of the belief that China's, Japan's, and Korea's entirely reasonable requests to have been left alone should have been strictly honored by others.]


    'An eminent German geographer, Kapp, now residing in Texas, once said that as the history of modern times grew out of the invention of gunpowder, of printing, and the discovery of America, so most modern history will be governed by steam, electricity, and the unlocking of China.'

    'We may well suppose that the magazine of civilization for 5000 years will not fail to exert an influence upon the fledglings who so saucily knock at her gates'....'Their [China's] plodding propensities make them an excellent material for the industrial speculations of the Europeans'...'From these relations we may calculate upon an emigration of American businessmen to China, in return for that of Chinese laborers to California.' The New Rome; or, the United States of the World (1853) - pg 118-119
     
    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes/page/118/mode/2up
  8. Under Yeltsin and even in the early years of Putin’s presidency Russia attempted to join Nato. In the first years of the new millennium, Nato member counties held military exercises in Ukraine and even in Crimea . Locals held demonstrations in Crimea to protest (as they did in some other parts of Ukraine). Russia did nothing.

    In 2004 there were the Colour Revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine that ousted Russia friendly governments. Russia did nothing.

    In Feb 2008 a US Senate resolution urged that Georgia and Ukraine be given Nato Membership Action Plans In April, Putin was invited to the Bucharest Nato summit where it was stated of Ukraine and Georgia that they they “will become members”. A few months later (August 8 2008) Russia invaded Georgia.

    In Feb 2014 Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko was overthrown for wanting to keep Ukraine’s ties to Russia. Russian forces captured Crimea within weeks, and there was a Russian backed uprising among Russian speakers in Ukraine.

    In Feb 2019 Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko amended the country’s constitution committing the country to becoming a member of NATO a few moths later he was defeated in an election by Zelensky who was running on a platform of compromise with Russia with peace and Donbass remaining part of Ukraine,

    In June 2021, it was re announced (by NATO) that Ukraine would at some point be joining NATO, perhaps forgetting that Putin had one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO. After six months of warnings and military build up pressure were ignored by Ukraine, by the end of 2021 it began using Javelins and drones in combat in Donbass..

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO.
     
    Good summary. Let's add that Nato after 2008 annually restated: Ukraine will join Nato. In 2018-20 they went beyond joint exercises to start building naval bases in Ukraine - they were blown up by Russia in the first 24 hours of the war.

    The recent backpedalling in the West, 'who us? nooo...it was all empty talk to humor Ukies!', is not credible. Nato's behavior and Kiev's policies show that they were waiting for the right time when Russia is distracted and/or weak.

    Russia stated that Nato in Ukraine is a red line: it would be an unacceptable risk on a long border with a missile flight-time of 5 minutes. What Russia said is true on its face:
    - Ukraine's border with Russia is very long - nothing like Estonia's
    - Kiev's willingness to confront and provoke Russia is unmatched in the world
    - Nato has a history of attacking countries when they can (Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya...).

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war. Any other explanation is too stupid to be taken seriously - yes, Mr. Hacks-AP-Laxa, it is too stupid, you sound desperate. At least own up to the Nato plans, have some honor left as you lose.

    Replies: @Sean, @AnonfromTN, @Johnny Rico

  9. Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed – but that is due to preceding factors, like demographic collapse, and would have been as true for any pagan temples.

    The root problems are two-fold. The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism. Here, the West was leaps and bounds ahead of every other region, even Japan. Japan had the advantage of more isolated geography, but now even it is showing unpleasant signs. (How many anime have tranny characters?)

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions. And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @songbird

    increasing parasitism

    This is a parallel of every Chinese dynastic cycle. At the end of the Ming the House of Zhu, the end of Qing the Manchu-Mongol aristocracy, were huge siphons on the imperial payroll without contributing to martial prowess. This is repeating in the PRC with the Red Aristocracy, the Eileen Gu's, or Eileen (((Gu)))

    Malthusian factors also, the West imports serfs for DoorDash delivery and Uber drivers, Qing China large landowners bred serfs that led to population explosion.

    unpleasant signs

    Its still not verboten to challenge total gender egalitarianism in Japan, someone like the Finnish PM would be unlikely.

    East Asian conservatism goes hand-in-hand with conformism and relative lack of creativity.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @sher singh
    @songbird

    By controlling belief you control war, and by controlling war you control belief||
    Liberalism and Christianity work in tandem, they're of the same substance despite doctrinal disagreements||

    Heard arguments that Liberals and Christians view each other as Catholics and Protestants did 400 years ago||
    Of the same civilization, but heretical sects||

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661318913421869086/1008387352122630184/unknown.png

    , @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed...
     
    That is an oxymoron: Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness. Maybe they couch it in charity-and-peace, but they are publicly in agreement with the liberals.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn't be taken over. It was the Church's primary role to challenge it - and they failed to do it.

    You argue that is a consequence of what was happening already. That is fatalistic and ignores the cultural power that the church would have if it would defend normal life. As it is, the church is simply joining in the descend into eventual oblivion.


    wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.
     
    True. The wealth argument also impacted us in a different way: the recent drop in wealth creation and the selfish wealth appropriation by the previous generations - boomers' theft - created fertile ground among the young to abandon normal life. It is even rational - no stuff for us? we will burn down the house...

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West.
     
    There are parallels here to Judaism. Something like 50% of all Jewish births in the UK are now Orthodox. Jewish TFR in the UK is a respectable 2.6 per woman - and rising. Laketown of New Jersey, a heavily Orthodox town, now has a birth rate matching that of Niger. Its population grows by 4.5 to 5% per year.

    Meanwhile, the mainstream Jewish denominations are getting completely destroyed by a combination of sky-high intermarriage rates and rock-bottom fertility.

    The same patterns seem to hold in Christianity, where it is the radical protestant sects who are leading the change (as I've long noted to AP) whereas Catholicism is collapsing. Perhaps the most radical break with modernity are the Amish but the evangelical Christians more broadly are rapidly gaining ground, too, even in traditionally Catholic strongholds like Latinx America.

    Neither religion caused what is happening, and took huge bodyblows in the process, yet both are in their own ways re-configuring themselves with Judaism ahead in front.


    The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.
     
    Feudal lords in Europe did plenty of parasitism. Economic egalitarianism would if anything help fertility, if it meant cheap housing/living conditions (though that might have dysgenic effects, which is another topic). I think the problem is rather what you hint at in your next paragraph.

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions.
     
    The atomisation of society has paradoxically meant that less time can be devoted to children as we're less able (on average) to offload the work burden onto others, presumably family members. This has the natural effect of lowering fertility, as white people are generally K-selected (meaning high investment in each children) rather than r-selected (e.g. blacks).

    There are ways to be both high-investment in your offspring and have plenty of kids, but then you need a community ecosystem to support it. That's what a lot of people don't have these days, so they don't have as many kids. The outliers (Orthodox Jews, Amish) do, and hence they can indulge themselves.


    And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.
     
    There's of course a trade-off between fertility and modernity. We've arguably gone too far in the latter direction but there's tremendous value of having a core "high-breeder" population the way that the Haredim act for Jews and potentially Amish can for whites (in a century or two). I don't think it's feasible for everyone to become a certain way. Division of labour is necessary. Just have your religious fanatics well taken-care of.

    The main challenge would be to convince those who create economic surplus to subsidisie the breeders. This is today one of the biggest fault lines in Israel as the secular hiloni don't feel too excited about funding the Haredi lifestyle while the latter are a massive net-drain on the taxpayers. It's a delicate balance, even in a highly nationalistic state such as Israel. I think your point about it being made harder in a multicultural setting is all the more valid.

    Replies: @songbird

  10. @Yevardian
    @sher singh

    I see this thread is off to a great start.

    Replies: @A123

    I see this thread is off to a great start.

    Open Threads allow free discussion, and are thus desirable.

    However, I sometimes wonder if certain posters:

        • Save up their most inflammatory material
        • Stalk for new threads to deliberately maximize offensiveness

    PEACE 😇

     

     

    • Agree: sher singh, Not Raul
  11. 😁OPEN Thread Humor 😂

     
     ____

    Why is there always that one guy on the firing range? [MORE]

    [MORE]


     

     
    Do pigs like KALE?

     
     
     
     ______

    What happens when lions eat LGBTQXYZ∅+ ???

  12. @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Mikhail

    In the case of the US and India, there is a prospective marriage. The US is a high earning man and the bride is not beautiful. What's in it for the US to marry and extend the vow of guaranteeing war against China if war were to erupt between India and China? It would be ridiculous to not expect India to pay a huge dowry to the US in the form of non-purchase of Iranian and Russian oil in perpetuity. The purchase from alternative sources as far away as Nigeria and Guyana no doubt adds billions of dollars per year to the oil import bill. It is a ceaseless demand for dowry and payments are required every year even after the wedding. By buying Russian oil over the last several months, India has missed a dowry payment. If not back into compliance with the payment schedule, India will be abandoned at the wedding hall.

    If I were India, I would reconsider the marriage and figure out a way to make amends with China. That process starts with recognizing India is the predominant culpable party for provoking the Galwan Valley clashes in 2020 by continuously and unilaterally building up troops in boundary areas including Eastern Ladakh starting in the late 2000s. China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    Replies: @sher singh, @S, @S

    China built that area up in the 80s and India is just responding.

    Liberalism is a political monotheism, morality arises from war,
    By controlling violence it controls all morality in a territory||

    https://docdro.id/PrsmJ3A

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  13. @songbird
    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed - but that is due to preceding factors, like demographic collapse, and would have been as true for any pagan temples.

    The root problems are two-fold. The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism. Here, the West was leaps and bounds ahead of every other region, even Japan. Japan had the advantage of more isolated geography, but now even it is showing unpleasant signs. (How many anime have tranny characters?)

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions. And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @sher singh, @Beckow, @Thulean Friend

    increasing parasitism

    This is a parallel of every Chinese dynastic cycle. At the end of the Ming the House of Zhu, the end of Qing the Manchu-Mongol aristocracy, were huge siphons on the imperial payroll without contributing to martial prowess. This is repeating in the PRC with the Red Aristocracy, the Eileen Gu’s, or Eileen (((Gu)))

    Malthusian factors also, the West imports serfs for DoorDash delivery and Uber drivers, Qing China large landowners bred serfs that led to population explosion.

    unpleasant signs

    Its still not verboten to challenge total gender egalitarianism in Japan, someone like the Finnish PM would be unlikely.

    East Asian conservatism goes hand-in-hand with conformism and relative lack of creativity.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren't evolved for decision-making. I guess it is kind of obvious that historically, we lived in a patriarchal society, where they were the wards of their fathers or brothers, until they married and became the wards of their husbands. But feminists would probably categorize that as women being shackled.

    IMO, to really appreciate the dramatic differences among the sexes, one need only consider the history of England - England which was one the first countries in Europe to develop. Back a few hundred years before the steamship (How many really? Three, four or five tops?), it seems like rape was really common, even among high status women, under escort. (Maybe, that is why, in Ireland, wives walked behind their husbands, well into the 1800s, so they could check the road ahead).

    Personally, I think that really highlights, how much they stayed at home and how little travel they did. Maybe, the Sikh has influenced my thoughts...

    BTW, I did finally catch War of the Arrows a while back. Thought it was a fun film. I intended to watch only the first half, one night, but ended up staying up to watch the whole thing.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  14. sher singh says:
    @songbird
    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed - but that is due to preceding factors, like demographic collapse, and would have been as true for any pagan temples.

    The root problems are two-fold. The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism. Here, the West was leaps and bounds ahead of every other region, even Japan. Japan had the advantage of more isolated geography, but now even it is showing unpleasant signs. (How many anime have tranny characters?)

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions. And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @sher singh, @Beckow, @Thulean Friend

    By controlling belief you control war, and by controlling war you control belief||
    Liberalism and Christianity work in tandem, they’re of the same substance despite doctrinal disagreements||

    Heard arguments that Liberals and Christians view each other as Catholics and Protestants did 400 years ago||
    Of the same civilization, but heretical sects||

  15. The announced doom of Bitcoin has been delayed. It’s up over 5000 \$ since the bottom on 17 June. This upward slope is bigger than any dead cat bounce.

    Has anybody heard from the absent proprietor of Karlinstan since June when he was throwing in with the doomers?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Perhaps Anatoly is in Sailer's closet comparing frilly face diapers.

    Where O where is our beloved Chechen Swordsman?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  16. @Sean
    Under Yeltsin and even in the early years of Putin's presidency Russia attempted to join Nato. In the first years of the new millennium, Nato member counties held military exercises in Ukraine and even in Crimea . Locals held demonstrations in Crimea to protest (as they did in some other parts of Ukraine). Russia did nothing.

    In 2004 there were the Colour Revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine that ousted Russia friendly governments. Russia did nothing.


    In Feb 2008 a US Senate resolution urged that Georgia and Ukraine be given Nato Membership Action Plans In April, Putin was invited to the Bucharest Nato summit where it was stated of Ukraine and Georgia that they they "will become members". A few months later (August 8 2008) Russia invaded Georgia.

    In Feb 2014 Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko was overthrown for wanting to keep Ukraine's ties to Russia. Russian forces captured Crimea within weeks, and there was a Russian backed uprising among Russian speakers in Ukraine.

    In Feb 2019 Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko amended the country's constitution committing the country to becoming a member of NATO a few moths later he was defeated in an election by Zelensky who was running on a platform of compromise with Russia with peace and Donbass remaining part of Ukraine,

    In June 2021, it was re announced (by NATO) that Ukraine would at some point be joining NATO, perhaps forgetting that Putin had one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO. After six months of warnings and military build up pressure were ignored by Ukraine, by the end of 2021 it began using Javelins and drones in combat in Donbass..

    Replies: @Beckow

    …one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO.

    Good summary. Let’s add that Nato after 2008 annually restated: Ukraine will join Nato. In 2018-20 they went beyond joint exercises to start building naval bases in Ukraine – they were blown up by Russia in the first 24 hours of the war.

    The recent backpedalling in the West, ‘who us? nooo…it was all empty talk to humor Ukies!’, is not credible. Nato’s behavior and Kiev’s policies show that they were waiting for the right time when Russia is distracted and/or weak.

    Russia stated that Nato in Ukraine is a red line: it would be an unacceptable risk on a long border with a missile flight-time of 5 minutes. What Russia said is true on its face:
    – Ukraine’s border with Russia is very long – nothing like Estonia’s
    – Kiev’s willingness to confront and provoke Russia is unmatched in the world
    – Nato has a history of attacking countries when they can (Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya…).

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war. Any other explanation is too stupid to be taken seriously – yes, Mr. Hacks-AP-Laxa, it is too stupid, you sound desperate. At least own up to the Nato plans, have some honor left as you lose.

    • Agree: Mikhail, Derer
    • Replies: @Sean
    @Beckow

    I suspect Putin had great hopes for Zelensky agreeing to a final settlement that would keep an Donbass in as an autonomous region Ukraine, yet give Donbass a veto on NATO membership. Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises and when the 2021 reiteration by Nato that Ukraine would join signaled Zelensky's complete transformation into a Poroshenko clone it made Putin start to prepare for an invasion (some Russian POW say they began training for it then). The US 'experts' did not believe Russia had any such option, because an invasion would be too difficult. It was really a matter of will to take casualties and Russia has always had that. Dead conscripts did not drive them out of Afghanistan


    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/american-grand-strategy-disguising-decline-203305
    During the first Cold War, the United States and its allies imposed across-the-board embargoes on the Soviet Union. But America’s business and banking elites, like those of its allies, oppose any decoupling of the economies of China and the West.

    The few measures of anti-Chinese economic warfare—Trump’s tariffs, the incentives in the CHIPS Act to build more chip foundries in the United States—are so feeble that they hardly affect the deepening economic dependence of the United States and its allies on Chinese manufacturing. And even these ineffectual attempts to rebuild U.S. manufacturing may be abandoned as a result of lobbying by Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. […] While appeasing a powerful, rising China in practice, the United States picks fights with weak countries—Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and now a much-diminished Rump Russia.
     
    Superannuated strategists out of their depth explains it. Interesting about naval bases but the real work was being done on the ports of Ukraine by guess who?

    https://panama-maritime-education.com/chinese-company-helps-write-new-chapter-in-ukraines-black-sea-port/
    Chinese company helps write new chapter in Ukraine’s Black Sea port The Beijing-based China Harbor Engineering Company (CHEC) is carrying out the dredging, helping Ukraine to transform the Soviet-built port into a modern maritime facility and write the new chapter in the history of Yuzhny. Founded in 1978, Yuzhny is one of the three major ports in Ukraine. Last year, it became the busiest seaport of the country, having reloaded 39 million tons of commodities or 30 percent of Ukraine’s total maritime cargo turnover. The dredging is a key part of the Ukrainian government strategy to make Yuzhny an important transport hub on the crossroads of global trade and a link in the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative.

    The CHEC won the contract worth 38 million U.S. dollars on upgrading the port in mid-April, getting ahead of four leading dredging and marine services companies from Europe.
     

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war
     
    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war. However, it grossly miscalculated. While the war itself likely takes more effort than Russian strategists expected, this confrontation precipitated tectonic changes in geopolitics that the empire did not want or anticipate.

    The empire expected most countries to toe its “sanctions” line, but only a small minority did. Suicidal nature of “sanctions” for many countries forced them to take an anti-imperial stance. Even many ostensibly pro-imperial regimes (Israel, KSA, Brazil, UAE, Bahrain, Georgia, Moldova, to name just a few) refused to join anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the empire. For reasons only psychiatrists can explain, while failing in its anti-Russian quest in Ukraine, the empire provoked a confrontation with China by sending an old bitch to Taiwan. Monumental stupidity or death throes? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Replies: @A123, @Beckow

    , @Johnny Rico
    @Beckow

    They will prolly own up around the same time you admit Russia is a long way from "winning" this. Your own understanding of the war will improve when you accept that you have nothing to do with it.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @A123, @Derer

  17. S says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Mikhail

    In the case of the US and India, there is a prospective marriage. The US is a high earning man and the bride is not beautiful. What's in it for the US to marry and extend the vow of guaranteeing war against China if war were to erupt between India and China? It would be ridiculous to not expect India to pay a huge dowry to the US in the form of non-purchase of Iranian and Russian oil in perpetuity. The purchase from alternative sources as far away as Nigeria and Guyana no doubt adds billions of dollars per year to the oil import bill. It is a ceaseless demand for dowry and payments are required every year even after the wedding. By buying Russian oil over the last several months, India has missed a dowry payment. If not back into compliance with the payment schedule, India will be abandoned at the wedding hall.

    If I were India, I would reconsider the marriage and figure out a way to make amends with China. That process starts with recognizing India is the predominant culpable party for provoking the Galwan Valley clashes in 2020 by continuously and unilaterally building up troops in boundary areas including Eastern Ladakh starting in the late 2000s. China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    Replies: @sher singh, @S, @S

    China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    The emboldened portion of your comment fits in quite well with the emboldened portion below. It’s an excerpt from a little known today 1853 US book, The New Rome, which I’ve commented upon before. The book presents itself as a blueprint for the future conquest of the world by the US/UK in three succinct steps.

    According to this mid-19th century book, after the US and UK have formed a future practically unbeatable united front, and after Germany has been succesfully conquered by them, a move which will have unleashed a ‘world’s war’ upon the Earth, Russia is to be attacked by the United States as the final step prior to ushering in the ‘New Rome’, the ‘United States of the World’.

    [I should note here I am not for this, and this is not intended to ‘bash’ anyone, Anglo-Saxon, Russian, or, otherwise. I think people should be aware of this practically unknown book and of it’s contents, that’s all. I see this book as possibly being ‘a suggestion’ placed in the US public’s mind, the same as I see a paralleling and also little known 2006 Russian published book, The Third Empire, which describes a future Russian war with the United States, as also being possibly a deliberate ‘suggestion’ placed in the minds of the Russian people. It is not impossible, therefore, that both the people of the United States and Russia, are being manipulated into this war against their own respective long term interests.]

    ‘Russia has expended all her forces in making a formidable display on her Western border. The United States are already digging the trenches for an attack in the rear.’ The New Rome; or, the United States of the World (1853) – pg 109

    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his ‘New Rome’ campaign from London. This campaign was to be a final push for the obtainment of total world power by the British Empire.

    Tarpley, whom I’ve excerpted below, does not mention, however, or, perhaps was unaware, that the co-author of the aforementioned US published New Rome, Theodore Poesche, would also be in London during this very same time.

    Poesche would then proceed on to the United States, and with Charles Goepp, write and have published in short order, The New Rome, a widely distributed and widely reviewed book in the US at the time, which describes step by step just how exactly Palmerston’s dream of all encompassing global empire is to be accomplished.

    A NEW ROMAN EMPIRE

    ‘It is 1850. Lord Palmerston is engaged in a campaign to make London the undisputed center of a new, worldwide Roman Empire. He is attempting to conquer the world in the way that the British have already conquered India, reducing every other nation to the role of a puppet, client, and fall-guy for British imperial policy. Lord Palmerston’s campaign is not a secret. He has declared it here in the Houses of Parliament, saying that wherever in the world a British subject goes, he can flaunt the laws, secure that the British fleet will support him. “Civis Romanus sum, every Briton is a citizen of this new Rome,” thundered Lord Palmerston, and with that, the universal empire was proclaimed.’

    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes/page/108/mode/2up

    https://archive.org/details/politicalprophec00goeb/page/n3/mode/2up

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/lord-palmerstons-multicultural-human-zoo/

    https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/177-a-map-of-russias-third-empire-2053/

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @S


    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his ‘New Rome’ campaign from London.
     
    That is one way to put it. Tarpley is a rare combination of awesome intellect and total bugnutsity. This document is as good as anything Philip K Dick ever put down:

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fidelio_archive/1995/fidv04n02-1995Su/fidv04n02-1995Su_004-venices_war_against_western_civi.pdf

    (Venice’s War Against Western Civilization)

    Replies: @S

  18. @S
    @china-russia-all-the-way


    China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.
     
    The emboldened portion of your comment fits in quite well with the emboldened portion below. It's an excerpt from a little known today 1853 US book, The New Rome, which I've commented upon before. The book presents itself as a blueprint for the future conquest of the world by the US/UK in three succinct steps.

    According to this mid-19th century book, after the US and UK have formed a future practically unbeatable united front, and after Germany has been succesfully conquered by them, a move which will have unleashed a 'world's war' upon the Earth, Russia is to be attacked by the United States as the final step prior to ushering in the 'New Rome', the 'United States of the World'.

    [I should note here I am not for this, and this is not intended to 'bash' anyone, Anglo-Saxon, Russian, or, otherwise. I think people should be aware of this practically unknown book and of it's contents, that's all. I see this book as possibly being 'a suggestion' placed in the US public's mind, the same as I see a paralleling and also little known 2006 Russian published book, The Third Empire, which describes a future Russian war with the United States, as also being possibly a deliberate 'suggestion' placed in the minds of the Russian people. It is not impossible, therefore, that both the people of the United States and Russia, are being manipulated into this war against their own respective long term interests.]

    'Russia has expended all her forces in making a formidable display on her Western border. The United States are already digging the trenches for an attack in the rear.' The New Rome; or, the United States of the World (1853) - pg 109
     
    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his 'New Rome' campaign from London. This campaign was to be a final push for the obtainment of total world power by the British Empire.

    Tarpley, whom I've excerpted below, does not mention, however, or, perhaps was unaware, that the co-author of the aforementioned US published New Rome, Theodore Poesche, would also be in London during this very same time.

    Poesche would then proceed on to the United States, and with Charles Goepp, write and have published in short order, The New Rome, a widely distributed and widely reviewed book in the US at the time, which describes step by step just how exactly Palmerston's dream of all encompassing global empire is to be accomplished.

    A NEW ROMAN EMPIRE

    'It is 1850. Lord Palmerston is engaged in a campaign to make London the undisputed center of a new, worldwide Roman Empire. He is attempting to conquer the world in the way that the British have already conquered India, reducing every other nation to the role of a puppet, client, and fall-guy for British imperial policy. Lord Palmerston’s campaign is not a secret. He has declared it here in the Houses of Parliament, saying that wherever in the world a British subject goes, he can flaunt the laws, secure that the British fleet will support him. “Civis Romanus sum, every Briton is a citizen of this new Rome,” thundered Lord Palmerston, and with that, the universal empire was proclaimed.'
     
    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes/page/108/mode/2up

    https://archive.org/details/politicalprophec00goeb/page/n3/mode/2up

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/lord-palmerstons-multicultural-human-zoo/

    https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/177-a-map-of-russias-third-empire-2053/

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his ‘New Rome’ campaign from London.

    That is one way to put it. Tarpley is a rare combination of awesome intellect and total bugnutsity. This document is as good as anything Philip K Dick ever put down:

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fidelio_archive/1995/fidv04n02-1995Su/fidv04n02-1995Su_004-venices_war_against_western_civi.pdf

    (Venice’s War Against Western Civilization)

    • Replies: @S
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    Tarpley is a rare combination of awesome intellect and total bugnutsity.
     
    Haha! I wholeheartedly agree.

    As you infer, however, mixed in amongst the chaff is the occasional gem. One such brilliant gem of Tarpley's I've re-linked below and is well worth the time spent to read. It fit in perfectly with my own, wholly independent and separate from his, extensive reading of the history of the British Empire during the 19th century.

    This document is as good as anything Philip K Dick ever put down:
     
    Thanks. I've already started reading it.

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/lord-palmerstons-multicultural-human-zoo/
  19. @songbird
    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed - but that is due to preceding factors, like demographic collapse, and would have been as true for any pagan temples.

    The root problems are two-fold. The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism. Here, the West was leaps and bounds ahead of every other region, even Japan. Japan had the advantage of more isolated geography, but now even it is showing unpleasant signs. (How many anime have tranny characters?)

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions. And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @sher singh, @Beckow, @Thulean Friend

    …Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed…

    That is an oxymoron: Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness. Maybe they couch it in charity-and-peace, but they are publicly in agreement with the liberals.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.

    You argue that is a consequence of what was happening already. That is fatalistic and ignores the cultural power that the church would have if it would defend normal life. As it is, the church is simply joining in the descend into eventual oblivion.

    wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.

    True. The wealth argument also impacted us in a different way: the recent drop in wealth creation and the selfish wealth appropriation by the previous generations – boomers’ theft – created fertile ground among the young to abandon normal life. It is even rational – no stuff for us? we will burn down the house…

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Beckow


    Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness.
     
    Women still can't be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.
     
    I'm not going to say that I think the Church (or any church) did a good job fighting poz because I don't think that they did. Frankly, I can't think of any mainstream group, religious or not, that did a good job opposing it. Possibly, part of that relates to lack of vision, and people's inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend. (probably, still operating, even though we have already descended pretty far)

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues. Perhaps, starting with the fact that you can't excommunicate a corporation and going through many others that I believe E. Michael Jones talks about.

    They weren't completely inactive. I recall my hometown church trying to campaign against some awful female judge from South Africa, who ended up voting to legalize gay marriage in the state, which was part of the early push in America and the world to legalize gay marriage.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now - they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don't think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    Replies: @Beckow, @Gerard1234, @Coconuts

  20. @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO.
     
    Good summary. Let's add that Nato after 2008 annually restated: Ukraine will join Nato. In 2018-20 they went beyond joint exercises to start building naval bases in Ukraine - they were blown up by Russia in the first 24 hours of the war.

    The recent backpedalling in the West, 'who us? nooo...it was all empty talk to humor Ukies!', is not credible. Nato's behavior and Kiev's policies show that they were waiting for the right time when Russia is distracted and/or weak.

    Russia stated that Nato in Ukraine is a red line: it would be an unacceptable risk on a long border with a missile flight-time of 5 minutes. What Russia said is true on its face:
    - Ukraine's border with Russia is very long - nothing like Estonia's
    - Kiev's willingness to confront and provoke Russia is unmatched in the world
    - Nato has a history of attacking countries when they can (Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya...).

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war. Any other explanation is too stupid to be taken seriously - yes, Mr. Hacks-AP-Laxa, it is too stupid, you sound desperate. At least own up to the Nato plans, have some honor left as you lose.

    Replies: @Sean, @AnonfromTN, @Johnny Rico

    I suspect Putin had great hopes for Zelensky agreeing to a final settlement that would keep an Donbass in as an autonomous region Ukraine, yet give Donbass a veto on NATO membership. Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises and when the 2021 reiteration by Nato that Ukraine would join signaled Zelensky’s complete transformation into a Poroshenko clone it made Putin start to prepare for an invasion (some Russian POW say they began training for it then). The US ‘experts’ did not believe Russia had any such option, because an invasion would be too difficult. It was really a matter of will to take casualties and Russia has always had that. Dead conscripts did not drive them out of Afghanistan

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/american-grand-strategy-disguising-decline-203305
    During the first Cold War, the United States and its allies imposed across-the-board embargoes on the Soviet Union. But America’s business and banking elites, like those of its allies, oppose any decoupling of the economies of China and the West.

    The few measures of anti-Chinese economic warfare—Trump’s tariffs, the incentives in the CHIPS Act to build more chip foundries in the United States—are so feeble that they hardly affect the deepening economic dependence of the United States and its allies on Chinese manufacturing. And even these ineffectual attempts to rebuild U.S. manufacturing may be abandoned as a result of lobbying by Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. […] While appeasing a powerful, rising China in practice, the United States picks fights with weak countries—Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and now a much-diminished Rump Russia.

    Superannuated strategists out of their depth explains it. Interesting about naval bases but the real work was being done on the ports of Ukraine by guess who?

    https://panama-maritime-education.com/chinese-company-helps-write-new-chapter-in-ukraines-black-sea-port/
    Chinese company helps write new chapter in Ukraine’s Black Sea port The Beijing-based China Harbor Engineering Company (CHEC) is carrying out the dredging, helping Ukraine to transform the Soviet-built port into a modern maritime facility and write the new chapter in the history of Yuzhny. Founded in 1978, Yuzhny is one of the three major ports in Ukraine. Last year, it became the busiest seaport of the country, having reloaded 39 million tons of commodities or 30 percent of Ukraine’s total maritime cargo turnover. The dredging is a key part of the Ukrainian government strategy to make Yuzhny an important transport hub on the crossroads of global trade and a link in the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative.

    The CHEC won the contract worth 38 million U.S. dollars on upgrading the port in mid-April, getting ahead of four leading dredging and marine services companies from Europe.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Sean

    In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a - very reasonable - compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn't get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.

    This was always planned as an all-out fight. The benefits for the Western elites if they win or weaken Russia were too big not to try. The problem is that the costs are also huge, and they never counted on actually losing - the worst case scenario was simply sacrificing Ukraine and containing the whole thing. It will probably go beyond that - the West miscalculated.


    Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises
     
    That was just the external manifestation of what was going on behind the scene: Kiev was told in no uncertain terms that no Minsk compromise will be allowed and they should play for time. Porky's goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody who has played his role and is just waiting for the promised comfy exile in the West. But you are right, Zelko simply transformed into Porky.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  21. S says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Mikhail

    In the case of the US and India, there is a prospective marriage. The US is a high earning man and the bride is not beautiful. What's in it for the US to marry and extend the vow of guaranteeing war against China if war were to erupt between India and China? It would be ridiculous to not expect India to pay a huge dowry to the US in the form of non-purchase of Iranian and Russian oil in perpetuity. The purchase from alternative sources as far away as Nigeria and Guyana no doubt adds billions of dollars per year to the oil import bill. It is a ceaseless demand for dowry and payments are required every year even after the wedding. By buying Russian oil over the last several months, India has missed a dowry payment. If not back into compliance with the payment schedule, India will be abandoned at the wedding hall.

    If I were India, I would reconsider the marriage and figure out a way to make amends with China. That process starts with recognizing India is the predominant culpable party for provoking the Galwan Valley clashes in 2020 by continuously and unilaterally building up troops in boundary areas including Eastern Ladakh starting in the late 2000s. China certainly does not and did not want the distraction of a confrontation with India when the mother of all confrontations is in the Western Pacific.

    Replies: @sher singh, @S, @S

    In my just previous post to you about the 1853 New Rome book and it’s indications that the US might possibly use a war with China as a means to also attack Russia’s ‘backdoor’ in Siberia, I’d not mentioned if the book has anything more specific to say about China. It does, and I’ve excerpted a portion below.

    [Again, I’m not for what this book says, though do think that it’s contents should be known, and am of the belief that China’s, Japan’s, and Korea’s entirely reasonable requests to have been left alone should have been strictly honored by others.]

    ‘An eminent German geographer, Kapp, now residing in Texas, once said that as the history of modern times grew out of the invention of gunpowder, of printing, and the discovery of America, so most modern history will be governed by steam, electricity, and the unlocking of China.’

    ‘We may well suppose that the magazine of civilization for 5000 years will not fail to exert an influence upon the fledglings who so saucily knock at her gates’….’Their [China’s] plodding propensities make them an excellent material for the industrial speculations of the Europeans’…’From these relations we may calculate upon an emigration of American businessmen to China, in return for that of Chinese laborers to California.’ The New Rome; or, the United States of the World (1853) – pg 118-119

    https://archive.org/details/newrome00poes/page/118/mode/2up

  22. @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO.
     
    Good summary. Let's add that Nato after 2008 annually restated: Ukraine will join Nato. In 2018-20 they went beyond joint exercises to start building naval bases in Ukraine - they were blown up by Russia in the first 24 hours of the war.

    The recent backpedalling in the West, 'who us? nooo...it was all empty talk to humor Ukies!', is not credible. Nato's behavior and Kiev's policies show that they were waiting for the right time when Russia is distracted and/or weak.

    Russia stated that Nato in Ukraine is a red line: it would be an unacceptable risk on a long border with a missile flight-time of 5 minutes. What Russia said is true on its face:
    - Ukraine's border with Russia is very long - nothing like Estonia's
    - Kiev's willingness to confront and provoke Russia is unmatched in the world
    - Nato has a history of attacking countries when they can (Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya...).

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war. Any other explanation is too stupid to be taken seriously - yes, Mr. Hacks-AP-Laxa, it is too stupid, you sound desperate. At least own up to the Nato plans, have some honor left as you lose.

    Replies: @Sean, @AnonfromTN, @Johnny Rico

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war

    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war. However, it grossly miscalculated. While the war itself likely takes more effort than Russian strategists expected, this confrontation precipitated tectonic changes in geopolitics that the empire did not want or anticipate.

    The empire expected most countries to toe its “sanctions” line, but only a small minority did. Suicidal nature of “sanctions” for many countries forced them to take an anti-imperial stance. Even many ostensibly pro-imperial regimes (Israel, KSA, Brazil, UAE, Bahrain, Georgia, Moldova, to name just a few) refused to join anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the empire. For reasons only psychiatrists can explain, while failing in its anti-Russian quest in Ukraine, the empire provoked a confrontation with China by sending an old bitch to Taiwan. Monumental stupidity or death throes? Your guess is as good as mine.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war.
     
    The European WEF Empire wanted this war to maximize refugee flows. MENA origin Rape-ugees flood the EU on forged Ukrainian documents.

    Key to understanding the situation is that the *last* thing European Empire wants is for Ukraine to win. MENA invaders on forged documents would be expected to "return to Ukraine".

    The next phase of the plan is for Ukraine to messily fall. The European Empire will then be able to keep Rape-ugees with falsified Ukrainian identity documents. Most likely, they will be fast tracked for EU citizenship and given other MENA only privileges
    ___

    The best solution would be a negotiated armistice. Sooner rather than later.

    Putin has made it clear that he would support such a resolution. Alas, Oligarch Zelensky is conspiring with the European Empire, and the Ukrainian people are paying the price.

    PEACE 😇
    , @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ...NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency
     
    I use Nato as a convenient term for the militaristic elites in Washington-London-Brussels and a few other places, but it is just a placeholder name.

    Nato miscalculated: a lengthy, bloody war will have a much bigger impact on changing strategic realities than would a short 'victorious' war. With every day they lose in the war Ukie statehood becomes more questionable: more they fight, more likely a complete redo of the region will be done by the winner.

    That's the story of big wars vs. small wars: only big wars change everything. A blitzkrieg would be a non-event: a new president in Kiev, all else would stay almost the same - how would Black Sea coast be taken if there was a new 'more-friendly' government in Kiev? Also something about sacrifices forces radical solutions.

    Monumental stupidity or death throes?
     
    They do what they can with very weak cards to play. So the remaining cards are thrown in to see what happens, to scramble it. At this point the West needs to change the situation - having more wars is helpful, at least with the narrative.

    There is also the make-up reward: you piss off the Chinese, quietly apologize, create some good will, then you ask for a favor China could do about Russia - nothing to do with Taiwan. It is a sophisticated multi-level game and it usually doesn't work. But they need to do something and there will be more attempts to stir up other places. It is kind of 'death throes', but the patient is still quite strong. This could take decades. Or they could choose to end it in 15 minutes, beats 'losing face', right?
  23. S says:
    @Emil Nikola Richard
    @S


    Purportedly, according to Webster Tarpley, who can be something of a mixed bag, 1850 was the year the powerful British Foreign Secretary and future PM Lord Palmerston would launch his ‘New Rome’ campaign from London.
     
    That is one way to put it. Tarpley is a rare combination of awesome intellect and total bugnutsity. This document is as good as anything Philip K Dick ever put down:

    https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fidelio_archive/1995/fidv04n02-1995Su/fidv04n02-1995Su_004-venices_war_against_western_civi.pdf

    (Venice’s War Against Western Civilization)

    Replies: @S

    Tarpley is a rare combination of awesome intellect and total bugnutsity.

    Haha! I wholeheartedly agree.

    As you infer, however, mixed in amongst the chaff is the occasional gem. One such brilliant gem of Tarpley’s I’ve re-linked below and is well worth the time spent to read. It fit in perfectly with my own, wholly independent and separate from his, extensive reading of the history of the British Empire during the 19th century.

    This document is as good as anything Philip K Dick ever put down:

    Thanks. I’ve already started reading it.

    http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/lord-palmerstons-multicultural-human-zoo/

  24. Here’s some random human interest for the thread. With all the helpful suggestions on reading material last thread I’ll share what we are building to house all the damnable books taking over the house.

    We’ll have a 12’x18′ library space with built in shelves around the perimeter when this is done. (Done. Ha Ha. Don’t hold your breath on that!) And a mudroom. Both of which will buy us some precious space and organization.

    • Thanks: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @A123
    @Barbarossa

    Ace of Spades has a weekly book thread along with pictures of various library arrangements.

    Here is today's:
    https://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=400458

    In more orderly parts of the world, book lending is this simple.

     
    https://ace.mu.nu/archives/073122-Library.jpg
     

    PEACE 😇

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    Umberto Eco said he had 25 000 books.

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/01/16/fashion/VIRAL-LIBRARY/VIRAL-LIBRARY-superJumbo.jpg

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Philip Owen

  25. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war
     
    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war. However, it grossly miscalculated. While the war itself likely takes more effort than Russian strategists expected, this confrontation precipitated tectonic changes in geopolitics that the empire did not want or anticipate.

    The empire expected most countries to toe its “sanctions” line, but only a small minority did. Suicidal nature of “sanctions” for many countries forced them to take an anti-imperial stance. Even many ostensibly pro-imperial regimes (Israel, KSA, Brazil, UAE, Bahrain, Georgia, Moldova, to name just a few) refused to join anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the empire. For reasons only psychiatrists can explain, while failing in its anti-Russian quest in Ukraine, the empire provoked a confrontation with China by sending an old bitch to Taiwan. Monumental stupidity or death throes? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Replies: @A123, @Beckow

    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war.

    The European WEF Empire wanted this war to maximize refugee flows. MENA origin Rape-ugees flood the EU on forged Ukrainian documents.

    Key to understanding the situation is that the *last* thing European Empire wants is for Ukraine to win. MENA invaders on forged documents would be expected to “return to Ukraine”.

    The next phase of the plan is for Ukraine to messily fall. The European Empire will then be able to keep Rape-ugees with falsified Ukrainian identity documents. Most likely, they will be fast tracked for EU citizenship and given other MENA only privileges
    ___

    The best solution would be a negotiated armistice. Sooner rather than later.

    Putin has made it clear that he would support such a resolution. Alas, Oligarch Zelensky is conspiring with the European Empire, and the Ukrainian people are paying the price.

    PEACE 😇

  26. @Barbarossa
    https://i.ibb.co/Qm2G31d/IMG-8762.jpg

    Here's some random human interest for the thread. With all the helpful suggestions on reading material last thread I'll share what we are building to house all the damnable books taking over the house.

    We'll have a 12'x18' library space with built in shelves around the perimeter when this is done. (Done. Ha Ha. Don't hold your breath on that!) And a mudroom. Both of which will buy us some precious space and organization.

    Replies: @A123, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Ace of Spades has a weekly book thread along with pictures of various library arrangements.

    Here is today’s:
    https://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=400458

    In more orderly parts of the world, book lending is this simple.

     

     

    PEACE 😇

  27. @songbird
    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed - but that is due to preceding factors, like demographic collapse, and would have been as true for any pagan temples.

    The root problems are two-fold. The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism. Here, the West was leaps and bounds ahead of every other region, even Japan. Japan had the advantage of more isolated geography, but now even it is showing unpleasant signs. (How many anime have tranny characters?)

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions. And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @sher singh, @Beckow, @Thulean Friend

    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West.

    There are parallels here to Judaism. Something like 50% of all Jewish births in the UK are now Orthodox. Jewish TFR in the UK is a respectable 2.6 per woman – and rising. Laketown of New Jersey, a heavily Orthodox town, now has a birth rate matching that of Niger. Its population grows by 4.5 to 5% per year.

    Meanwhile, the mainstream Jewish denominations are getting completely destroyed by a combination of sky-high intermarriage rates and rock-bottom fertility.

    The same patterns seem to hold in Christianity, where it is the radical protestant sects who are leading the change (as I’ve long noted to AP) whereas Catholicism is collapsing. Perhaps the most radical break with modernity are the Amish but the evangelical Christians more broadly are rapidly gaining ground, too, even in traditionally Catholic strongholds like Latinx America.

    Neither religion caused what is happening, and took huge bodyblows in the process, yet both are in their own ways re-configuring themselves with Judaism ahead in front.

    The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.

    Feudal lords in Europe did plenty of parasitism. Economic egalitarianism would if anything help fertility, if it meant cheap housing/living conditions (though that might have dysgenic effects, which is another topic). I think the problem is rather what you hint at in your next paragraph.

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions.

    The atomisation of society has paradoxically meant that less time can be devoted to children as we’re less able (on average) to offload the work burden onto others, presumably family members. This has the natural effect of lowering fertility, as white people are generally K-selected (meaning high investment in each children) rather than r-selected (e.g. blacks).

    There are ways to be both high-investment in your offspring and have plenty of kids, but then you need a community ecosystem to support it. That’s what a lot of people don’t have these days, so they don’t have as many kids. The outliers (Orthodox Jews, Amish) do, and hence they can indulge themselves.

    And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.

    There’s of course a trade-off between fertility and modernity. We’ve arguably gone too far in the latter direction but there’s tremendous value of having a core “high-breeder” population the way that the Haredim act for Jews and potentially Amish can for whites (in a century or two). I don’t think it’s feasible for everyone to become a certain way. Division of labour is necessary. Just have your religious fanatics well taken-care of.

    The main challenge would be to convince those who create economic surplus to subsidisie the breeders. This is today one of the biggest fault lines in Israel as the secular hiloni don’t feel too excited about funding the Haredi lifestyle while the latter are a massive net-drain on the taxpayers. It’s a delicate balance, even in a highly nationalistic state such as Israel. I think your point about it being made harder in a multicultural setting is all the more valid.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    Feudal lords in Europe did plenty of parasitism.
     
    Don't disagree, but I like how there was supposed to be at least a nominal two-way allegiance. Feudal lords, after all, did a lot to curtail the raiding of Vikings and Barbary pirates. Seems completely missing today, even in theory, despite its undeniable appeal.

    Not to try to romanticize the life of a medieval peasant or even a feudal lord, but back then they at least had a taboo against extractive banking. Exploiting people by force, whatever the brutality, at least involves a shred of courage.

    I think there is also a big contrast in the level of rootedness. Feudal wealth was difficult to move and often spent feasting local retainers. While modern wealth is ultra-fungible. One can move it across vast distances, and disguise its origin and its effects. Use it to lobby for policies in countries where one has never set foot.

    I think the wealthy are more cloistered now than they have ever been. And it is not only the wealthy that can be a problem. Having reached dizzying heights of complexity, modern wealth allows for dizzying abuses of social trust. There is so much complexity without much oversight. Horrible things are happening in colleges and in the government because of the increased revenues of extraction. People are given jobs which are explicitly designed to harass others. It would have been unthinkable 60 years ago.
  28. To AP – from the older page.

    You are losing the argument, and as you often do, resort to ad hominem attacks, and citing of the most dubious sources as evidence.

    And the more we talk, the more idiotic your argumentation is.

    Like this,

    The physicist who formulated the Big Bang Theory concerning the origin of the physical universe was a Roman Catholic priest.

    Of course, he must have been a priest. Who else could have produced such a drivel? The Big Bang Theory is a pseudo-scientific re-iteration of the Biblical creation myth, that defies logic and common sense.

    One has to be biased to consider it science.

    The childish pride necessary to assume that [there is nothing in the world beyond our senses and intellect], and to dismiss the notion of anything beyond the ape senses, is incredible.

    That’s not how you said it. You said it was childish to assume that one can understand the world with his senses and intellect.

    Once again – there’s no other way to understand anything.

    And the same as we can use various material tools to expand the range of our natural perception, so we can use various intellectual tools to expand the range of our natural abilities.

    The same as we can use a microscope or a telescope, so we can see further and deeper, so we can use meditation, LSD, mescaline, and other chemical compounds that expand the range of our natural perception.

    The same as we need to use material tools in order to see the material world, that’s beyond our senses, so we need to use intellectual tools in order to see the spiritual world, that’s beyond our natural mental senses.

    This is incredible, that having read so much about it in my earlier comments, you still haven’t understood anything.

    Once again – the entire practice of the Buddhist and Hindu religion is directed at overcoming the limitation of these “ape senses” and achieving the higher states of consciousness.

    These higher states are natural abilities of our mind.

    The problem is that you are not looking for understanding. You are looking for anything that may support your delusional belief, the notion of the imaginary universe that you were taught about, and not the reality.

    This is why you so easily dismiss anything coming from anybody if it doesn’t support what you decided to believe in.

    You can read what people like Dr Albert Hofmann, the creator of LSD, said in his book, LSD – My Problem Child, what he thought about it. You can read what a prominent scientist and a Harvard professor Timothy Leary thought about it.

    You can read the Doors of Perception and hear what Aldous Huxley thought about it.

    And if you were a rational man you would think, that these people were probably smarter than you, and if they independently of each other formed the same opinion about it, than maybe there’s more to it than you can imagine.

    Unfortunately, you are not a rational man, and you will rather believe in fables than challenge that belief, looking for the truth. You do not need the truth, are not interested in it.

    You need comfort.

    And you will rather stay in this comfortable world of ape senses than even consider for a minute that there may be the way out of it. You will rather believe in the idiotic Big Bang than think for a minute about eternity.

    Like any Christian you negate anything that isn’t a part of your creed – the same as any other cult member does.

    Talking to you is a waste of time.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Here Be Dragon


    Talking to you is a waste of time.
     
    Duh. Water is wet. What else is new?
    , @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    "The childish pride necessary to assume that [there is nothing in the world beyond our senses and intellect], and to dismiss the notion of anything beyond the ape senses, is incredible."

    That’s not how you said it. You said it was childish to assume that one can understand the world with his senses and intellect.
     
    My actual words:

    "Childishness is the naive and myopic belief that the world one exists insofar as it can be understood by the senses and intellect and that nothing exists beyond that. " [one should have been only]

    You can't help yourself but to misrepresent things.

    "And the same as we can use various material tools to expand the range of our natural perception, so we can use various intellectual tools to expand the range of our natural abilities."

    The same as we can use a microscope or a telescope, so we can see further and deeper, so we can use meditation, LSD, mescaline, and other chemical compounds that expand the range of our natural perception.
     
    LSD doesn't enhance, but twists or obscures. Do you think that a psychotic person is somehow "enhanced?" Do you think that viewing a sunset through a kaleidoscope is enhancing the view, rather than distorting it? It may certainly look interesting, and quite different from what you are used to. You confuse novelty with enhancement.

    This is incredible, that having read so much about it in my earlier comments, you still haven’t understood anything.
     
    I understand quite well that you find meaning in distorting your perceptions.

    Once again – the entire practice of the Buddhist and Hindu religion is directed at overcoming the limitation of these “ape senses” and achieving the higher states of consciousness
     
    I suspect that the Buddhists condemn use of drugs for the reason that processes of drug abuse and Buddhist meditation are not the same and that the former is a cheap and false imitation of the latter.

    You can read what people like Dr Albert Hofmann, the creator of LSD, said in his book, LSD – My Problem Child, what he thought about it. You can read what a prominent scientist and a Harvard professor Timothy Leary thought about it.

    You can read the Doors of Perception and hear what Aldous Huxley thought about it.

    And if you were a rational man you would think, that these people were probably smarter than you,
     
    Timothy Leary was indeed smarter than I am, but he was also an evil, egotistic psychopath:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/26/acid-redux

    As such, he was a perfect guru for the self-absorbed, shallow and selfish pseudo-religious Boomers that were his followers.

    The other two were probably just seduced by something new and very interesting.
  29. @Sean
    @Beckow

    I suspect Putin had great hopes for Zelensky agreeing to a final settlement that would keep an Donbass in as an autonomous region Ukraine, yet give Donbass a veto on NATO membership. Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises and when the 2021 reiteration by Nato that Ukraine would join signaled Zelensky's complete transformation into a Poroshenko clone it made Putin start to prepare for an invasion (some Russian POW say they began training for it then). The US 'experts' did not believe Russia had any such option, because an invasion would be too difficult. It was really a matter of will to take casualties and Russia has always had that. Dead conscripts did not drive them out of Afghanistan


    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/american-grand-strategy-disguising-decline-203305
    During the first Cold War, the United States and its allies imposed across-the-board embargoes on the Soviet Union. But America’s business and banking elites, like those of its allies, oppose any decoupling of the economies of China and the West.

    The few measures of anti-Chinese economic warfare—Trump’s tariffs, the incentives in the CHIPS Act to build more chip foundries in the United States—are so feeble that they hardly affect the deepening economic dependence of the United States and its allies on Chinese manufacturing. And even these ineffectual attempts to rebuild U.S. manufacturing may be abandoned as a result of lobbying by Wall Street, Silicon Valley, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. […] While appeasing a powerful, rising China in practice, the United States picks fights with weak countries—Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and now a much-diminished Rump Russia.
     
    Superannuated strategists out of their depth explains it. Interesting about naval bases but the real work was being done on the ports of Ukraine by guess who?

    https://panama-maritime-education.com/chinese-company-helps-write-new-chapter-in-ukraines-black-sea-port/
    Chinese company helps write new chapter in Ukraine’s Black Sea port The Beijing-based China Harbor Engineering Company (CHEC) is carrying out the dredging, helping Ukraine to transform the Soviet-built port into a modern maritime facility and write the new chapter in the history of Yuzhny. Founded in 1978, Yuzhny is one of the three major ports in Ukraine. Last year, it became the busiest seaport of the country, having reloaded 39 million tons of commodities or 30 percent of Ukraine’s total maritime cargo turnover. The dredging is a key part of the Ukrainian government strategy to make Yuzhny an important transport hub on the crossroads of global trade and a link in the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative.

    The CHEC won the contract worth 38 million U.S. dollars on upgrading the port in mid-April, getting ahead of four leading dredging and marine services companies from Europe.
     

    Replies: @Beckow

    In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a – very reasonable – compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn’t get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.

    This was always planned as an all-out fight. The benefits for the Western elites if they win or weaken Russia were too big not to try. The problem is that the costs are also huge, and they never counted on actually losing – the worst case scenario was simply sacrificing Ukraine and containing the whole thing. It will probably go beyond that – the West miscalculated.

    Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises

    That was just the external manifestation of what was going on behind the scene: Kiev was told in no uncertain terms that no Minsk compromise will be allowed and they should play for time. Porky’s goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody who has played his role and is just waiting for the promised comfy exile in the West. But you are right, Zelko simply transformed into Porky.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    Zelko simply transformed into Porky.
     
    Changing stage persona is a job requirement for a clown.
  30. @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – from the older page.

    You are losing the argument, and as you often do, resort to ad hominem attacks, and citing of the most dubious sources as evidence.

    And the more we talk, the more idiotic your argumentation is.

    Like this,

    The physicist who formulated the Big Bang Theory concerning the origin of the physical universe was a Roman Catholic priest.
     
    Of course, he must have been a priest. Who else could have produced such a drivel? The Big Bang Theory is a pseudo-scientific re-iteration of the Biblical creation myth, that defies logic and common sense.

    One has to be biased to consider it science.

    The childish pride necessary to assume that [there is nothing in the world beyond our senses and intellect], and to dismiss the notion of anything beyond the ape senses, is incredible.
     
    That's not how you said it. You said it was childish to assume that one can understand the world with his senses and intellect.

    Once again – there's no other way to understand anything.

    And the same as we can use various material tools to expand the range of our natural perception, so we can use various intellectual tools to expand the range of our natural abilities.

    The same as we can use a microscope or a telescope, so we can see further and deeper, so we can use meditation, LSD, mescaline, and other chemical compounds that expand the range of our natural perception.

    The same as we need to use material tools in order to see the material world, that's beyond our senses, so we need to use intellectual tools in order to see the spiritual world, that's beyond our natural mental senses.

    This is incredible, that having read so much about it in my earlier comments, you still haven't understood anything.

    Once again – the entire practice of the Buddhist and Hindu religion is directed at overcoming the limitation of these "ape senses" and achieving the higher states of consciousness.

    These higher states are natural abilities of our mind.

    The problem is that you are not looking for understanding. You are looking for anything that may support your delusional belief, the notion of the imaginary universe that you were taught about, and not the reality.

    This is why you so easily dismiss anything coming from anybody if it doesn't support what you decided to believe in.

    You can read what people like Dr Albert Hofmann, the creator of LSD, said in his book, LSD – My Problem Child, what he thought about it. You can read what a prominent scientist and a Harvard professor Timothy Leary thought about it.

    You can read the Doors of Perception and hear what Aldous Huxley thought about it.

    And if you were a rational man you would think, that these people were probably smarter than you, and if they independently of each other formed the same opinion about it, than maybe there's more to it than you can imagine.

    Unfortunately, you are not a rational man, and you will rather believe in fables than challenge that belief, looking for the truth. You do not need the truth, are not interested in it.

    You need comfort.

    And you will rather stay in this comfortable world of ape senses than even consider for a minute that there may be the way out of it. You will rather believe in the idiotic Big Bang than think for a minute about eternity.

    Like any Christian you negate anything that isn't a part of your creed – the same as any other cult member does.

    Talking to you is a waste of time.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @AP

    Talking to you is a waste of time.

    Duh. Water is wet. What else is new?

  31. @Beckow
    @Sean

    In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a - very reasonable - compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn't get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.

    This was always planned as an all-out fight. The benefits for the Western elites if they win or weaken Russia were too big not to try. The problem is that the costs are also huge, and they never counted on actually losing - the worst case scenario was simply sacrificing Ukraine and containing the whole thing. It will probably go beyond that - the West miscalculated.


    Porosheko and his street demo by the electorally weak nationalist frightened Zenensky into a U turn of his electoral promises
     
    That was just the external manifestation of what was going on behind the scene: Kiev was told in no uncertain terms that no Minsk compromise will be allowed and they should play for time. Porky's goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody who has played his role and is just waiting for the promised comfy exile in the West. But you are right, Zelko simply transformed into Porky.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Zelko simply transformed into Porky.

    Changing stage persona is a job requirement for a clown.

  32. In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a – very reasonable – compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn’t get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.

    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk, and got elected even though many Russian speaker were not able to vote for him, which suggests Ukrainian speaker were also sick of the war. As were Germany and France. America was OK with Minsk.

    Zelensky had begun to do what he said he would about a final settlement with Russia when there were mass demos outside his office that Poroshenko joined. Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.

    Porky’s goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody

    This is the self made billionaire who twice orchestrated the overthrow of an elected president of Ukraine you are talking about?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk
     
    The best evidence that US was against Minsk is the fact that it was not allowed to happen. Between Washington and Porky, who is more powerful? My money is on Washington, if Porky would have his own ideas they would corral him very quickly - he is fully controlled.

    I don't think Porky is self-made - his dad run the chocolate factory that they privatized in the 90's. He is not worth 'billions' although he is rich. And he didn't single-handedly organize the two coups, he was one of the few insiders who did it - but the decisive role was played by their sponsors in the West. You over-estimate Porky's importance. The nationalists are mostly hired mercenaries, angry Ukie men need work.

    He is a mulatto who did his work, now he can go.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @A123
    @Sean


    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk,
     
    I concur.

    Under Trump, it is clear that Ukraine, including the Minsk Agreement, barely registered. The two concepts in play were:
        #1 - Keep America out of it
        #2 - Counter the "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth

    The first option usually won out as policy. The only moderately sized Ukraine package during Trump's term was driven by #2, which was a one-time only tactical decision. The timing aligned to a Putin re-election. The domestic audience required mollification via a symbolic palliative.


    Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.
     
    WEF Elites obtained control of the suddenly wealthy, international property owner Zelensky. Instead of doing what the Ukrainian people elected him to do, Zekensky became a servant. The same European Globalists who run Not-The-President Biden also puppeteer the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Sean

  33. @AnonfromTN
    @Beckow


    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war
     
    The empire (NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency) wanted this war. However, it grossly miscalculated. While the war itself likely takes more effort than Russian strategists expected, this confrontation precipitated tectonic changes in geopolitics that the empire did not want or anticipate.

    The empire expected most countries to toe its “sanctions” line, but only a small minority did. Suicidal nature of “sanctions” for many countries forced them to take an anti-imperial stance. Even many ostensibly pro-imperial regimes (Israel, KSA, Brazil, UAE, Bahrain, Georgia, Moldova, to name just a few) refused to join anti-Russian sanctions pushed by the empire. For reasons only psychiatrists can explain, while failing in its anti-Russian quest in Ukraine, the empire provoked a confrontation with China by sending an old bitch to Taiwan. Monumental stupidity or death throes? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Replies: @A123, @Beckow

    …NATO is no more than its tool, other members have no agency

    I use Nato as a convenient term for the militaristic elites in Washington-London-Brussels and a few other places, but it is just a placeholder name.

    Nato miscalculated: a lengthy, bloody war will have a much bigger impact on changing strategic realities than would a short ‘victorious’ war. With every day they lose in the war Ukie statehood becomes more questionable: more they fight, more likely a complete redo of the region will be done by the winner.

    That’s the story of big wars vs. small wars: only big wars change everything. A blitzkrieg would be a non-event: a new president in Kiev, all else would stay almost the same – how would Black Sea coast be taken if there was a new ‘more-friendly‘ government in Kiev? Also something about sacrifices forces radical solutions.

    Monumental stupidity or death throes?

    They do what they can with very weak cards to play. So the remaining cards are thrown in to see what happens, to scramble it. At this point the West needs to change the situation – having more wars is helpful, at least with the narrative.

    There is also the make-up reward: you piss off the Chinese, quietly apologize, create some good will, then you ask for a favor China could do about Russia – nothing to do with Taiwan. It is a sophisticated multi-level game and it usually doesn’t work. But they need to do something and there will be more attempts to stir up other places. It is kind of ‘death throes’, but the patient is still quite strong. This could take decades. Or they could choose to end it in 15 minutes, beats ‘losing face’, right?

  34. PRC’s sovereignty over Tibet and the border with India was very much bequeathed by Soviets,

    Mao Zedong: I would like to note that the air regiment that you sent to China was very helpful. They transported 10 thousand people. Let me thank you, comrade Stalin, for the help and ask you to allow it to stay a little longer, so it could help transport provisions to [CCP CC member and commander of the PLA’s Second Field Army] Liu Bocheng’s troops, currently preparing for an attack on Tibet.

    Stalin: It’s good that you are preparing to attack. The Tibetans need to be subdued. As for the air regiment, we shall talk this over with the military personnel and give you an answer.

    Conversation between Stalin and Mao, Moscow, 22 January 1950
    https://www.international.ucla.edu/cnes/article/18177

    How Stalin helped Mao in Tibet
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/how-stalin-helped-mao-in-tibet/story-qKeRWDQpxy1QdYTngGB9EM.html

  35. china-russia-all-the-way says:
    @sher singh
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WdOZiVjLj8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EXSVMTvwBY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNt20oQjnvg

    SAT SRI AKAAALLUH

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Yevardian, @china-russia-all-the-way

    Does the election of Simrajit Singh Mann signal a fresh start for the Khalistan movement in Punjab?

  36. @Mikhail
    https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/1558342441006235648

    I sensed such awhile back.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

    The NASA Fire Maps are quite objective. The great majority of hits nowadays are on Russian held territory.

    https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#m:advanced;d:24hrs;l:noaa20-viirs,viirs,modis_a,modis_t,country-outline,landsat_human;@37.8,48.3,7z

    • LOL: Mikhail
  37. @Sean

    In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a – very reasonable – compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn’t get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.
     
    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk, and got elected even though many Russian speaker were not able to vote for him, which suggests Ukrainian speaker were also sick of the war. As were Germany and France. America was OK with Minsk.

    Zelensky had begun to do what he said he would about a final settlement with Russia when there were mass demos outside his office that Poroshenko joined. Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.


    Porky’s goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody
     
    This is the self made billionaire who twice orchestrated the overthrow of an elected president of Ukraine you are talking about?

    Replies: @Beckow, @A123

    …There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk

    The best evidence that US was against Minsk is the fact that it was not allowed to happen. Between Washington and Porky, who is more powerful? My money is on Washington, if Porky would have his own ideas they would corral him very quickly – he is fully controlled.

    I don’t think Porky is self-made – his dad run the chocolate factory that they privatized in the 90’s. He is not worth ‘billions’ although he is rich. And he didn’t single-handedly organize the two coups, he was one of the few insiders who did it – but the decisive role was played by their sponsors in the West. You over-estimate Porky’s importance. The nationalists are mostly hired mercenaries, angry Ukie men need work.

    He is a mulatto who did his work, now he can go.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Beckow

    Poroshenko is no more a tool of hidden forces that Trump is.

    https://static.ukrinform.com/photos/2018_09/thumb_files/630_360_1537986449-4983.jpeg

    Look at them and you will notice several similarities. Both are being pursued by political enemies now in charge of state criminal 'justice' systems.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Emil Nikola Richard

  38. To AP – the part two. From the older page.

    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.

    The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India.

    “According to google search engine” – sure.

    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.

    The United States are followed by the United Kingdom – not surprisingly, it is followed by the United Kingdom in producing serial killers as well.

    Together the two countries have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.

    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography. Not surprisingly, they produce 90 percent of it as well, contaminating the entire world with degeneracy.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.

    The United States have the population of 25 percent of that of the Hindu. Yet the Hindu population consumes 25 percent of pornography of that consumed in the United States.

    A country of degenerates.

    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/

    The most degenerate of societies is the one where regular people do degenerate things. Between 1 in 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex, for example. Over 1% Of Russians have HIV.

    You should have abandoned this topic, knowing that you will be thereby exposed as a liar – once again.

    You are a shameless liar.

    We’ve already gone over this: Russia has about 7 times more prostitutes per capita than the USA, Russia has about 250% higher abortion rate than does the USA, Russia has about a 60% higher divorce rate than the USA.

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International

    Your source of these estimates is a non-governmental organization, the one that doesn’t have any access to the real statistics.

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.

    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies. There are a lot of guest workers from Asia, who are willing to have sex with white women.

    The Russian prostitutes don’t do that, but the Ukrainian ones are willing to serve anybody, who is willing to pay. Many of them have little children at home, and the children need to eat.

    So the Ukrainian women work as prostitutes, and the men pick cabbages in Poland.

    Russian HIV rate is about 330% higher than in the USA, Homicide rate is about 15% higher in Russia than in the USA.

    First of all, as the page from which you take this data says, they are considering renaming that article, because it gives the wrong impression that in some countries there’s a high rate of homicide, when in reality it isn’t so, due to differences in the definition.

    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder. And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States. The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States, and that is, per capita – the serial killers alone kill somebody every three days, in the United States.

    But things are getting better – during the 90s they were killing somebody every single day. And what’s interesting, many of these degenerates come from a family of devoted Christians.

    Like GG Allin, whose real name was Jesus Christ.

    Weekly church attendance is about 5 times higher in the USA than in Russia.

    Of course, it is. There are churches that can accommodate ten thousand people at once. The Russians don’t have these.

    These are the American Christians – a congregation of hypocrites and liars. There are certainly some serial killers in the crowd as well. Most of them are up-standing citizens, leading “virtuous lives” when they are not killing people.

    And I’m sure that thousands of Chekist killers murdered far more people than did the prolific American serial killer.

    Of course, you are.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive. This is not surprising, because a liar naturally believes in a lie. Such is your very nature.

    But in truth, this figure was taken from the data of the number of people registered with HIV since 1987, including foreigners.

    Количество зарегистрированных ВИЧ-позитивных лиц на территории Российской Федерации с 1987 г. (включая иностранных граждан): 1 458 364

    http://www.hivrussia.info/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Byulleten-45-VICH-infektsiya-2019-g..pdf

    Количество людей, живущих с ВИЧ/СПИД в Российской Федерации на 100 000 населения: 754 – 0.75 percent, including foreigners.

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International. Surely a lot of them have HIV, because they serve truck drivers and Gastarbeiters, who have sex with other prostitutes, and so they infect each other.

    And your statistics, of course, come from another NGO – https://avert.info/

    So, a liar begets a liar.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

  39. @Sean

    In retrospect Kiev was never going to be allowed to agree to a – very reasonable – compromise: autonomy for Donbas and a neutral Ukraine. The people in the West behind Maidan wouldn’t get what they wanted: a militarized Ukraine in Nato with minimal ethnic Russians left, a chance of regaining Crimea. If Russians thought that Minsk talks would lead to something they were naive.
     
    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk, and got elected even though many Russian speaker were not able to vote for him, which suggests Ukrainian speaker were also sick of the war. As were Germany and France. America was OK with Minsk.

    Zelensky had begun to do what he said he would about a final settlement with Russia when there were mass demos outside his office that Poroshenko joined. Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.


    Porky’s goons were used as a signal, but Porky by himself is a nobody
     
    This is the self made billionaire who twice orchestrated the overthrow of an elected president of Ukraine you are talking about?

    Replies: @Beckow, @A123

    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk,

    I concur.

    Under Trump, it is clear that Ukraine, including the Minsk Agreement, barely registered. The two concepts in play were:
        #1 – Keep America out of it
        #2 – Counter the “Russia, Russia, Russia” myth

    The first option usually won out as policy. The only moderately sized Ukraine package during Trump’s term was driven by #2, which was a one-time only tactical decision. The timing aligned to a Putin re-election. The domestic audience required mollification via a symbolic palliative.

    Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.

    WEF Elites obtained control of the suddenly wealthy, international property owner Zelensky. Instead of doing what the Ukrainian people elected him to do, Zekensky became a servant. The same European Globalists who run Not-The-President Biden also puppeteer the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Sean
    @A123


    Under Trump, it is clear that Ukraine, including the Minsk Agreement, barely registered
     
    Agreed. During the meeting with Poroshenko, Trump asked his advisors if US troops were in the Donbass, told Porosheko that Ukraine was corrupt , and said Crimea was Russian because it was inhabited by Russians. But Poroshenko is the sort of guy Trump understands, that's why he talked Trump into authorizing the Javelins.

    Instead of doing what the Ukrainian people elected him to do, Zekensky ....
     
    The meaning and tenor of Zelensky's electioneering was that he would secure peace and keep the Donbass within Ukraine, and even get back Crimea, but if you look at what he actually said it was very obscure as to how, and he was completely vague about what concessions he'd give to Russia. In office Zelensky changed, and not for the better.

    "I want to say that I am very grateful to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who just congratulated me on my victory," Zelensky said at a press conference shortly after polls closed in the April 21 runoff. "I thank him. He said that I can count on his help at any time. He acknowledged my victory and my team's."
     
    First thing Zelensky did was deprive Poroshenko of his TV stations though a law against rich politicians owning them, Poroshenko was then arraigned on twenty criminal charges, including financing terrorism and treason whereupon he decided it was opportune to flee the country take an extended vacation. He came back for the invasion but Zelensky turned up the heat with the now state (ie Zelensky) controlled media pouring out the vials of wrath on him, so he left for London again
  40. This is a rather interesting 1963 documentary entitled The Human Dutch.

    It was purportedly filmed entirely with hidden cameras, none of it being staged, and shows the people of the Netherlands from every walk of life in their daily activities.

    What’s more, it shows these Dutch doing their own hard physical labor, as has historically generally been the case with Euros everywhere, and was therefore filmed obviously before their having been hatefully betrayed by so called ‘progressive’ Multi-culturalist elites and hangers on importing by diktat hordes of alien wage slave (ie so called ‘cheap labor’) colonists and settlers to be used as a weapon against them.

  41. @Barbarossa
    https://i.ibb.co/Qm2G31d/IMG-8762.jpg

    Here's some random human interest for the thread. With all the helpful suggestions on reading material last thread I'll share what we are building to house all the damnable books taking over the house.

    We'll have a 12'x18' library space with built in shelves around the perimeter when this is done. (Done. Ha Ha. Don't hold your breath on that!) And a mudroom. Both of which will buy us some precious space and organization.

    Replies: @A123, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Umberto Eco said he had 25 000 books.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Ha! My house feels like this a lot of the time! That's a truly awesome private library. It's not far off from the spirit of what I'd like but...significantly less ambitious.

    I just showed that pic to my wife and she says that Umberto Eco must be her kind of guy. Fortunately for me he's gone so I won't have to worry about the competition!

    I probably only own a couple thousand books though, half of which are in storage at my shop currently. The library should hopefully allow them to be categorized and shelved properly as the free range masses of books are kind of ticking me off in their current untamed state.

    My wife is kind of a book hoarder and so is worse than me on accumulating books, but she has a very literature heavy home schooling approach with the kids so she does use them. I guess I'd rather she spends money on books rather than stupid shoes and make up, so I can't complain.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Philip Owen
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    I have a couple of thousand books most of which I will never read again. My new books arrive by Kindle and Kobo. Should I send my books to landfill? Is it worth digging out obscure British 1st editions of '60's and '70's scifi? Complete Asimov, Brunner, Heinlein, Harrison and others. Also a lot of King Arthur stuff. Is life too short? A great grandfather left 5000 books. His estate paid for the transport to donate them to the founding collection for the proposed National Library of Wales. I do not wish to burden my children so.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Barbarossa

  42. Some stories speak for themselves. (1)

    ‘Dumbest tweet in HISTORY’: Media comparing Liz Cheney to Obi-Wan in that she’ll be more POWERFUL after losing BACKFIRES

    In a galaxy far, far, far away … the same people who are pretending Liz Cheney is some sort of Jedi accused her and her father of being war criminals. They hated her, resented her, likely called her a fascist as she voted with Trump 93% of the time. But now that she has decided to nuke her career to go after the former president and she hates him as they do, she’s their new hero.

    For now.

    When she loses and Democrats have no more use for her, she’ll fade away. Unlike a Jedi.

    Seriously, this is just stupid:

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/14/dumbest-tweet-in-history-media-comparing-liz-cheney-losing-to-obi-wan-in-that-shell-be-more-powerful-after-losing-backfiresa/

  43. @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...one final option left that he would have to use before Ukraine joined NATO.
     
    Good summary. Let's add that Nato after 2008 annually restated: Ukraine will join Nato. In 2018-20 they went beyond joint exercises to start building naval bases in Ukraine - they were blown up by Russia in the first 24 hours of the war.

    The recent backpedalling in the West, 'who us? nooo...it was all empty talk to humor Ukies!', is not credible. Nato's behavior and Kiev's policies show that they were waiting for the right time when Russia is distracted and/or weak.

    Russia stated that Nato in Ukraine is a red line: it would be an unacceptable risk on a long border with a missile flight-time of 5 minutes. What Russia said is true on its face:
    - Ukraine's border with Russia is very long - nothing like Estonia's
    - Kiev's willingness to confront and provoke Russia is unmatched in the world
    - Nato has a history of attacking countries when they can (Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Libya...).

    Nato assumed that Russia was bluffing or they wanted this war. Any other explanation is too stupid to be taken seriously - yes, Mr. Hacks-AP-Laxa, it is too stupid, you sound desperate. At least own up to the Nato plans, have some honor left as you lose.

    Replies: @Sean, @AnonfromTN, @Johnny Rico

    They will prolly own up around the same time you admit Russia is a long way from “winning” this. Your own understanding of the war will improve when you accept that you have nothing to do with it.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Johnny Rico


    Russia is a long way from “winning” this
     
    Save this comment. Read it in six months.
    , @Beckow
    @Johnny Rico

    It depends on how you define "long way": months? a year? 2-3 years?

    On the other hand "winning" is simply winning. In a war the country that takes more territory wins. So far that would be Russia. The quotes don't change that.

    , @A123
    @Johnny Rico


    Russia is a long way from “winning” this
     
    How far is Ukraine from "winning" this?

    I have yet to hear any credible Ukie offensive plan for crossing open ground in the south to retake Mariupol.

    Upcoming MAGA wins in the House will refocus U.S. appropriations on domestic needs. Do you expect the German Traffic Light coalition to step up and foot the bill? How about Macron?

    Russia's odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @Derer
    @Johnny Rico

    You are not qualified to say "Russia is long way from winning this" when you do not have a clue what their winning objective is. Perhaps they have already achieved their victory - and it is not to conquer the whole Ukraine.

  44. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    Umberto Eco said he had 25 000 books.

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/01/16/fashion/VIRAL-LIBRARY/VIRAL-LIBRARY-superJumbo.jpg

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Philip Owen

    Ha! My house feels like this a lot of the time! That’s a truly awesome private library. It’s not far off from the spirit of what I’d like but…significantly less ambitious.

    I just showed that pic to my wife and she says that Umberto Eco must be her kind of guy. Fortunately for me he’s gone so I won’t have to worry about the competition!

    I probably only own a couple thousand books though, half of which are in storage at my shop currently. The library should hopefully allow them to be categorized and shelved properly as the free range masses of books are kind of ticking me off in their current untamed state.

    My wife is kind of a book hoarder and so is worse than me on accumulating books, but she has a very literature heavy home schooling approach with the kids so she does use them. I guess I’d rather she spends money on books rather than stupid shoes and make up, so I can’t complain.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    In the modern units you own .1 Ecos of books.

    How many are Eco's books?

    I own five of Eco's books. Foucault's Pendulum is worth multiple re-readings. Name of the Rose is a great movie but I didn't think it was that great a novel and I didn't keep it. An ex-girlfriend's parents were the people who introduced me to the movie back in VCR days. This was their idea of testing suitor suitability. If he likes Name of the Rose he might be OK.

    Providence does not want futile things glorified

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUUB96c6EpY

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  45. AP says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – the part two. From the older page.

    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].
     
    Hosting doesn't have anything to do with production of pornography.

    The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India.
     
    "According to google search engine" – sure.

    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.

    The United States are followed by the United Kingdom – not surprisingly, it is followed by the United Kingdom in producing serial killers as well.

    Together the two countries have produced 90 percent of the world's serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.

    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography. Not surprisingly, they produce 90 percent of it as well, contaminating the entire world with degeneracy.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).
     
    You wish.

    The United States have the population of 25 percent of that of the Hindu. Yet the Hindu population consumes 25 percent of pornography of that consumed in the United States.

    A country of degenerates.

    https://i.postimg.cc/zGVF3DkF/US-named-the-most-porn-obsessed-country-in-the-world.jpg

    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/

    The most degenerate of societies is the one where regular people do degenerate things. Between 1 in 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex, for example. Over 1% Of Russians have HIV.
     
    You should have abandoned this topic, knowing that you will be thereby exposed as a liar – once again.

    You are a shameless liar.

    We’ve already gone over this: Russia has about 7 times more prostitutes per capita than the USA, Russia has about 250% higher abortion rate than does the USA, Russia has about a 60% higher divorce rate than the USA.
     
    "Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union," he said. "They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years." – Amnesty International

    Your source of these estimates is a non-governmental organization, the one that doesn't have any access to the real statistics.

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.

    There's no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies. There are a lot of guest workers from Asia, who are willing to have sex with white women.

    The Russian prostitutes don't do that, but the Ukrainian ones are willing to serve anybody, who is willing to pay. Many of them have little children at home, and the children need to eat.

    So the Ukrainian women work as prostitutes, and the men pick cabbages in Poland.

    Russian HIV rate is about 330% higher than in the USA, Homicide rate is about 15% higher in Russia than in the USA.
     
    First of all, as the page from which you take this data says, they are considering renaming that article, because it gives the wrong impression that in some countries there's a high rate of homicide, when in reality it isn't so, due to differences in the definition.

    There's no such category as "manslaughter" in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder. And the truth is, there's a lot more murder in the United States. The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States, and that is, per capita – the serial killers alone kill somebody every three days, in the United States.

    https://i.postimg.cc/bNWdqqVn/Serial-Killer-Victims-per-Year-in-the-US.png

    But things are getting better – during the 90s they were killing somebody every single day. And what's interesting, many of these degenerates come from a family of devoted Christians.

    Like GG Allin, whose real name was Jesus Christ.

    Weekly church attendance is about 5 times higher in the USA than in Russia.
     
    Of course, it is. There are churches that can accommodate ten thousand people at once. The Russians don't have these.

    https://i.postimg.cc/ZRj3YXXd/Megachurch.jpg

    These are the American Christians – a congregation of hypocrites and liars. There are certainly some serial killers in the crowd as well. Most of them are up-standing citizens, leading "virtuous lives" when they are not killing people.

    And I’m sure that thousands of Chekist killers murdered far more people than did the prolific American serial killer.
     
    Of course, you are.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive. This is not surprising, because a liar naturally believes in a lie. Such is your very nature.

    But in truth, this figure was taken from the data of the number of people registered with HIV since 1987, including foreigners.

    Количество зарегистрированных ВИЧ-позитивных лиц на территории Российской Федерации с 1987 г. (включая иностранных граждан): 1 458 364

    http://www.hivrussia.info/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Byulleten-45-VICH-infektsiya-2019-g..pdf

    Количество людей, живущих с ВИЧ/СПИД в Российской Федерации на 100 000 населения: 754 – 0.75 percent, including foreigners.

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International. Surely a lot of them have HIV, because they serve truck drivers and Gastarbeiters, who have sex with other prostitutes, and so they infect each other.

    And your statistics, of course, come from another NGO – https://avert.info/

    So, a liar begets a liar.

    Replies: @AP

    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    “The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India.”

    “According to google search engine” – sure.

    That’s what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states

    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.

    That’s an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.

    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.

    I haven’t checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.

    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography

    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.

    I don’t wish anything about this. It’s what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/

    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.

    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.

    They don’t say most, liar.

    Your quote said “many.”

    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though – that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.

    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.

    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States

    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that’s independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky’s team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies – or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.

    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    “Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million”

    That’s the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    • Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)
    @AP

    Shot from the high Russian sky
    Was a famous and Powerful guy.
    When he duly confessed,
    All of Wien felt distressed.
    U2, Uncle Sam, often lie.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Here Be Dragon
    @AP

    When you have no arguments you start playing a fool; or maybe you are not playing.


    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.
     
    It doesn't matter – traffic goes to the consumer.

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.
     
    It doesn't matter – a porn addict doesn't use Google search. He uses bookmarks.

    On the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers; in your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.
     
    "Pornhub is the 10th most trafficked website in the world" – so this data is for overall consumption.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.
     
    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.
     
    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.

    That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography.
     
    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.

    Google search doesn't reflect the overall use.

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.
     
    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?

    There is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.
     
    Excellent logic!

    The Ukrainian prostitutes work abroad – therefore, there are not many prostitutes in Ukraine.


    That's a good one.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.
     
    "The countries of origin visible to the respondents" – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian.

    Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.
     
    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.
     
    You are a liar – not me.

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the [HIV] epidemic [in the RF].
     
    Many people, even within the government, are paid to make statements like this. A non-governmental organization, sponsored from the US, is not to be trusted.

    The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate.
     
    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak. You lied, when you told me that you were a medic, didn't you?

    Share of deaths from HIV/AIDS, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-deaths-aids?tab=chart&country=USA~RUS

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 1.98%, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 1.27%;

    The number of deaths from HIV/AIDS per 100,000 people.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/hiv-death-rates?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 14.95, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 14.14;

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    Russia passed the peak in 2015, and in 2019 had 15% less of new cases. And this is not the data of the Ministry of Healthcare of the Russian Federation. The real number is half of that.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.

    The Russian drug addicts prefer heroin, and the American ones smoke methamphetamine, and masturbate, watching porn – the degenerate entertainment for a degenerate people.

    So you can point to some rare serial killers but Russia has a higher homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV, and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.
     
    You are a liar.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that's a lot.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there's 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.

    There are 20 times more serial killers, per capita, in the United States.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.

    https://i.postimg.cc/hv81FsRy/Gun-related-suicides-and-homicides-in-the-United-States.png

    And it's growing.

    And there's one serial killer per every 100 thousand of the American people, and one per 2 million of the Russian people.

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies – or to be such people.
     
    One American becomes a victim of a serial killer every three days.

    https://i.postimg.cc/43DzbRsc/Serial-Killer-Victims-per-Year-in-the-US.png

    And a Russian person is a lot less likely to know a Ukrainian prostitute, than an Uzbekistani taxi driver.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.
     
    And it shouldn't be mentioned.

    An abortion is a termination of an unwanted pregnancy; who said it should be considered anything degenerate – the Pope?

    Tell him that the Russians are civilized people.
    https://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/GarbhaUpanishad.pdf

    And that according to the Vedas, a spirit enters the fetus at the end of the 7th month. So, an abortion is not a murder.

    Tell him to read Garbha Upanishad, page 3 – in the seventh month, the fetus comes to have the soul, and in the eighth month, it becomes complete. During the ninth month, all outer signs attain completeness.

    And what's wrong with divorce?

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.

    But more importantly, none of that is even relevant, because you are simply lying.

    Number of marriages in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/marriage-rate-per-1000-inhabitants?country=USA~RUS

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;

    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.

    These numbers change with economic situation and have nothing to do with "degeneracy" or anything related to decency.

    Some people create a family because they can't make it on their own, and some others don't create a family because they can't afford it. Some get divorced when they can be independent, and others get divorced when they can not maintain.

    But most people do want to have a family. Most people do want to have children. And in America, 40 percent of the children are born outside of marriage.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

    Now, this is degeneracy.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Svidomyatheart
    @AP

    AP, man instead of making giant posts(the kind im about to make) this is how you get Indians. Instead of making posts with graphs, etc. This is what you should post


    This is much more effective. (yes they're hitting on a painting).

    There's plenty of memes about this how thirsty they are.

    https://i.imgur.com/KxqJdze.jpg

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Gerard1234
    @AP


    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).
     
    I think this discredited, permanently cursed in hell excrement claims to be a medic, without showing even the type of basic knowledge a porter in a hospital would know. I can't be bothered to look it up, but multiple times this sociopathic f**kwit has proven to not know the distinction between HIV and AIDS ( an important distinction to know if visiting the army of whores in Lvov, although fortunately this subhuman retard has never been in this situation)

    Anyway, any sane person knows that rise in HIV in Russia is solely connected to intravenous drug use accelerated starting from the American war in Afghanistan that lead to Russia as a heroin/opium transit corridor. It has next to nothing to do with sexual morality, hence, as even a retard could deduce, by the end of the 1990's the HIV rate in Russia was negligible but in the US it was FAR higher than in any western state. No surprise for ultra-high teenage pregnancy cesspit, liberal and gay-pride loving American idiots.

    On a "social morality" playing field i.e judging after the end of the wild 90's for Russia, American HIV rate is about 25 times that of Russia you sick moron. LMAO

    Moscow is practically much safer than any big American city ( as are most of all the other major Russian cities, like Kazan).

    So a fantasist who can't speak the language ,who gets hemorrhoids with these long shifts making psychologically disturbing numbers of posts on here every day as yourself.....claiming to be a "medic" makes an idiotically wrong statement about HIV in Russia that no medic would make, would almost have been certainly corrected on it before during the millions of fraudently "arguments" this bag of shit tries to initiate on here every minute.......still makes it. This is a combination of being pathologically dumb. and also the most lowlife troll possible.

    Oh yes,one more thing - the 19th and 26th of March Sundays in your fictitious church? Still no answer from this fantasist tramp? LMAO
    , @Philip Owen
    @AP

    The director of my business in Russia previously ran an AIDS prevention NGO to which she has returned. She is clear that the official AIDS centres do not reach all even most victims. She is also clear that most AIDS in Russia is drug related. That said, on Fridays, a handful of night butterflies turned up at our offices to collect some of the 100,000 free condoms she continued to distribute for resale to their coworkers.

  46. onto Toretsk…

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Wokechoke

    Kiev regime and neocon-neolib stupidity might unintentionally assist the possible future successful Russian advances in Kharkov and Odessa.

    Of possible interest if not already viewed -

    https://theduran.com/russia-steamrolls-through-more-of-donbass-msm-losing-hope-of-ukraine-kherson-counter-offensive/

  47. @Wokechoke
    onto Toretsk...

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Kiev regime and neocon-neolib stupidity might unintentionally assist the possible future successful Russian advances in Kharkov and Odessa.

    Of possible interest if not already viewed –

    https://theduran.com/russia-steamrolls-through-more-of-donbass-msm-losing-hope-of-ukraine-kherson-counter-offensive/

  48. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

    Shot from the high Russian sky
    Was a famous and Powerful guy.
    When he duly confessed,
    All of Wien felt distressed.
    U2, Uncle Sam, often lie.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Eustace Tilley (not)

    The fun thing about the Powers imbroglio is to wonder whether he was BSing when he said that he could't push the destructo switch because he couldn't activate the ejection seat without cutting off his legs.

    Was he really just thinking that when the CIA told him there was a timer, that they were lying, and that maybe, the ejection seat instantly triggered the bomb? And, if so, was he right?

    I wonder whether there was any trace of the Taiwanese pilot who was shot down.

  49. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @songbird

    increasing parasitism

    This is a parallel of every Chinese dynastic cycle. At the end of the Ming the House of Zhu, the end of Qing the Manchu-Mongol aristocracy, were huge siphons on the imperial payroll without contributing to martial prowess. This is repeating in the PRC with the Red Aristocracy, the Eileen Gu's, or Eileen (((Gu)))

    Malthusian factors also, the West imports serfs for DoorDash delivery and Uber drivers, Qing China large landowners bred serfs that led to population explosion.

    unpleasant signs

    Its still not verboten to challenge total gender egalitarianism in Japan, someone like the Finnish PM would be unlikely.

    East Asian conservatism goes hand-in-hand with conformism and relative lack of creativity.

    Replies: @songbird

    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren’t evolved for decision-making. I guess it is kind of obvious that historically, we lived in a patriarchal society, where they were the wards of their fathers or brothers, until they married and became the wards of their husbands. But feminists would probably categorize that as women being shackled.

    IMO, to really appreciate the dramatic differences among the sexes, one need only consider the history of England – England which was one the first countries in Europe to develop. Back a few hundred years before the steamship (How many really? Three, four or five tops?), it seems like rape was really common, even among high status women, under escort. (Maybe, that is why, in Ireland, wives walked behind their husbands, well into the 1800s, so they could check the road ahead).

    Personally, I think that really highlights, how much they stayed at home and how little travel they did. Maybe, the Sikh has influenced my thoughts…

    BTW, I did finally catch War of the Arrows a while back. Thought it was a fun film. I intended to watch only the first half, one night, but ended up staying up to watch the whole thing.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren’t evolved for decision-making.
     
    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president. Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?

    Replies: @songbird

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @songbird

    The ancient Vietnamese were matriarchal. They were martyrs against Han imperialism:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trưng_sisters

    The Inner Asians have a tradition of female holding high status. The only ever female Chinese emperor, Wu Zetian was part Xianbei (haplogroup N). She even had a harem of male concubines.

    Then late imperial China went too far in the other direction with the foot-binding and female infanticide. This visitor to England at the time extolled the gentleman character,
    https://twitter.com/Przysuchy/status/1558939910610259970?s=20&t=EIBxhGpmb9SYj309p9aXQw

    The problem is I think toxic femininity, that combines the negative aspects of masculinity, without the courage, integrity, etc.

    War of the Arrows

    The artillerists and navy in Qing Invasion of Joseon were Han Chinese. The more I look into this, the more bogus the PRC narrative of "5000 years of never invaded anyone blah blah"

    This film depicts a Russo-Qing alliance against the Dzungars,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFGh60XZzWQ

  50. @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Ha! My house feels like this a lot of the time! That's a truly awesome private library. It's not far off from the spirit of what I'd like but...significantly less ambitious.

    I just showed that pic to my wife and she says that Umberto Eco must be her kind of guy. Fortunately for me he's gone so I won't have to worry about the competition!

    I probably only own a couple thousand books though, half of which are in storage at my shop currently. The library should hopefully allow them to be categorized and shelved properly as the free range masses of books are kind of ticking me off in their current untamed state.

    My wife is kind of a book hoarder and so is worse than me on accumulating books, but she has a very literature heavy home schooling approach with the kids so she does use them. I guess I'd rather she spends money on books rather than stupid shoes and make up, so I can't complain.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    In the modern units you own .1 Ecos of books.

    How many are Eco’s books?

    I own five of Eco’s books. Foucault’s Pendulum is worth multiple re-readings. Name of the Rose is a great movie but I didn’t think it was that great a novel and I didn’t keep it. An ex-girlfriend’s parents were the people who introduced me to the movie back in VCR days. This was their idea of testing suitor suitability. If he likes Name of the Rose he might be OK.

    Providence does not want futile things glorified

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Sadly, I don't own any Umberto Eco books at this point, nor have I read any yet. An oversight no doubt. I'll have to put it on the list for future reading. I guess I probably can't legally measure my books in Ecos unless I own a few!

    One of the downsides to skipping college and getting married, buying land, and starting a business instead is that I have quite a number of holes in what I've read. I'm looking forward to filling in some of those in the coming years as I'm hoping to be a little less pedal to the metal with life.

    I'll make plans to watch The Name of the Rose in the next couple of weeks. I'm about due to watch a movie anyhow. It would seem to me that your ex-girlfriend's parents didn't have an altogether bad idea on weeding out young men. I'll have to keep some similar test in mind myself. I had already intended to make the poor young men in question cut firewood with me or something of the like, but the cultural test would be an interesting counterpoint.

    Replies: @Mikel

  51. @Mikhail
    https://twitter.com/yashalevine/status/1558654316159782912

    Replies: @Wielgus

    More like a monarchy. You just hand on the baton to the sprog…

  52. @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West. Yes, a lot of the churches are pozzed...
     
    That is an oxymoron: Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness. Maybe they couch it in charity-and-peace, but they are publicly in agreement with the liberals.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn't be taken over. It was the Church's primary role to challenge it - and they failed to do it.

    You argue that is a consequence of what was happening already. That is fatalistic and ignores the cultural power that the church would have if it would defend normal life. As it is, the church is simply joining in the descend into eventual oblivion.


    wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.
     
    True. The wealth argument also impacted us in a different way: the recent drop in wealth creation and the selfish wealth appropriation by the previous generations - boomers' theft - created fertile ground among the young to abandon normal life. It is even rational - no stuff for us? we will burn down the house...

    Replies: @songbird

    Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness.

    Women still can’t be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.

    I’m not going to say that I think the Church (or any church) did a good job fighting poz because I don’t think that they did. Frankly, I can’t think of any mainstream group, religious or not, that did a good job opposing it. Possibly, part of that relates to lack of vision, and people’s inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend. (probably, still operating, even though we have already descended pretty far)

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues. Perhaps, starting with the fact that you can’t excommunicate a corporation and going through many others that I believe E. Michael Jones talks about.

    They weren’t completely inactive. I recall my hometown church trying to campaign against some awful female judge from South Africa, who ended up voting to legalize gay marriage in the state, which was part of the early push in America and the world to legalize gay marriage.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now – they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don’t think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...people’s inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend.
     
    That is a major part of it: the speed and idiocy of the social descent in the West in the last 10-15 years is shocking.

    rapid socio-political changes that robbed the Church of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues
     
    It all happened very fast, but in the past churches were able to react - there is no reaction now as the absurdities proliferate. Catholic Church holds the line on women priests, but that is a minor symbolic issue - it would not significantly change the situation, it could even make it better.

    The problem is that Christian institutions have no vigor. The Pope is a weakling, most priests are fat elderly gluttons who at a minimum look like perverts (even if they are not). The failure to adapt is very visible - they look out of place and the pathetic attempts to be relevant exposes them to ridicule.

    If we project what is going on given the demographic collapse, there is not going to be anything resembling traditional European religion in 2-3 generations. The rituals will be abandoned or changed. There will be small islands left in some places, mostly in eastern Europe. The polarization between the ruling liberal elites and the islands of sanity will get so bad that they will gradually split.

    European civilization is based on the aggressive assertion of mostly Christian culture and European ability to get others' resources. Today Europe is simultaneously losing both. Is it intentional or driven by inevitable changes? Is it encouraged to achieve certain goals? That is not determinable, we can never know, motivations are a chimera and in the long run don't matter. What matters are results - as of now it looks like not much Europe will be left. And Church bears its responsibility for it. The 'dog that doesn't bark'...

    , @Gerard1234
    @songbird


    Women still can’t be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.
     
    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word "cucking" means, so I will make an assumption about it ( and apologise if it is wrong).....however it's one thing not allowing woman priests, but to me by far the bigger problem of the Catholic church is not allowing married male priests. A western friend linked me an article a year or two before ( I had been promoting Orthodoxy to him and lambasting the politics of the Catholic Church throughout history) in which the ex Pope, Benedict, having been silent as Pope Emeritus , was suddenly opening his mouth at the possibility of allowing married priests into dioceses in remote parts of the Amazon, where they are struggling to find Priests to go there . It just seemed to be very odd that this weird guy having been completely silent since not ruling as Pope, seemed to be angry at this non-homo policy being proposed in the Catholic Church.

    As far as I know, its not rooted in the Bible the idea of unmarried priests, and certainly most of the Bible is before Christianity and Judaism allows married rabbis.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now – they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don’t think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)
     
    Before I would guess these were hugely populated with either Irish or French people. Obviously , Ireland is largely secularised now and had some anti-Catholic church reaction to the paedo thing. French very liberal, often deifying shameful morality, possibly some ridiculous post-colonial guilt complex as from these seminaries and nunneries were people who brought christianity and education to these peoples. This all deserves to ask how come useless scum satanic Poles have not filled up the positions? Big population, millions of emigrants, supposedly Catholic but f**k all constructive role in regeneration of falling Catholic Church of last 20 years

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

    , @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues.
     
    I think this is true, looking back at the post-war decades and the 2nd Vatican council reforms in the 60s, there was a lot of optimism about liberal democracy and progress in secular society, leaving the old 'Church of Order' behind. Esp. in Europe reality has not lived up to expectations. That would probably be a mild judgement in the light of the recent acceleration of things.

    Outside of Europe they are still doing okay though with these changes, this may be part of what is causing problems now for European or US Catholics. The Pope doesn't seem to have a high level of interest in their issues and has even taken extra steps to restrict/suppress traditionalist Catholic (the old Latin Mass adherents) growth. This is nearly all in the US and Europe where it was a growing movement. I think a lot of his comments may be more intended for audiences outside of Europe now, this is where the interest seems to be.

    There is another problem in that a lot of the older priests who were already in their late teens or 20s before the 1960s reforms have been retiring, now it is leaving the most liberal generations of priests in charge (from the 60s, 70s, 80s). Younger priests and monks can be more traditionalist but fewer in number. A better strategy might have been to give up on trying to remain a mass church and to concentrate on trying to retain a minority of the more committed, and to not have hidden a lot of the traditional stuff away in the 80s and 90s.

    You are right that it seems they weren't ready for the impact that technology (the pill, liberation of women), the fall of Communism and advanced consumerism etc. would have.

    Replies: @songbird

  53. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

    When you have no arguments you start playing a fool; or maybe you are not playing.

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    It doesn’t matter – traffic goes to the consumer.

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.

    It doesn’t matter – a porn addict doesn’t use Google search. He uses bookmarks.

    On the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers; in your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.

    “Pornhub is the 10th most trafficked website in the world” – so this data is for overall consumption.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.

    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.

    That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.

    Google search doesn’t reflect the overall use.

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.

    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?

    There is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    Excellent logic!

    The Ukrainian prostitutes work abroad – therefore, there are not many prostitutes in Ukraine.

    [MORE]

    That’s a good one.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.

    “The countries of origin visible to the respondents” – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian.

    Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.

    You are a liar – not me.

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the [HIV] epidemic [in the RF].

    Many people, even within the government, are paid to make statements like this. A non-governmental organization, sponsored from the US, is not to be trusted.

    The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate.

    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak. You lied, when you told me that you were a medic, didn’t you?

    Share of deaths from HIV/AIDS, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-deaths-aids?tab=chart&country=USA~RUS

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 1.98%, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 1.27%;

    The number of deaths from HIV/AIDS per 100,000 people.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/hiv-death-rates?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 14.95, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 14.14;

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    Russia passed the peak in 2015, and in 2019 had 15% less of new cases. And this is not the data of the Ministry of Healthcare of the Russian Federation. The real number is half of that.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.

    The Russian drug addicts prefer heroin, and the American ones smoke methamphetamine, and masturbate, watching porn – the degenerate entertainment for a degenerate people.

    So you can point to some rare serial killers but Russia has a higher homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV, and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    You are a liar.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that’s a lot.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there’s 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.

    There are 20 times more serial killers, per capita, in the United States.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.

    And it’s growing.

    And there’s one serial killer per every 100 thousand of the American people, and one per 2 million of the Russian people.

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies – or to be such people.

    One American becomes a victim of a serial killer every three days.

    And a Russian person is a lot less likely to know a Ukrainian prostitute, than an Uzbekistani taxi driver.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.

    And it shouldn’t be mentioned.

    An abortion is a termination of an unwanted pregnancy; who said it should be considered anything degenerate – the Pope?

    Tell him that the Russians are civilized people.
    https://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/GarbhaUpanishad.pdf

    And that according to the Vedas, a spirit enters the fetus at the end of the 7th month. So, an abortion is not a murder.

    Tell him to read Garbha Upanishad, page 3 – in the seventh month, the fetus comes to have the soul, and in the eighth month, it becomes complete. During the ninth month, all outer signs attain completeness.

    And what’s wrong with divorce?

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.

    But more importantly, none of that is even relevant, because you are simply lying.

    Number of marriages in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/marriage-rate-per-1000-inhabitants?country=USA~RUS

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;

    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.

    These numbers change with economic situation and have nothing to do with “degeneracy” or anything related to decency.

    Some people create a family because they can’t make it on their own, and some others don’t create a family because they can’t afford it. Some get divorced when they can be independent, and others get divorced when they can not maintain.

    But most people do want to have a family. Most people do want to have children. And in America, 40 percent of the children are born outside of marriage.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

    Now, this is degeneracy.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    It doesn’t matter – traffic goes to the consumer.
     
    Sure, and according to google searches the countries with the most people looking for porn are Muslim countries.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.

    It doesn’t matter – a porn addict doesn’t use Google search. He uses bookmarks.
     
    Proof of that?

    And are you as much of an expert on porn addiction as you are on drug abuse?

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.

    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!
     
    Out of 330 million people.

    And every day 102 people in the USA die in car crashes.

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.
     
    They search for porn more than do Americans.

    "That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography."

    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.
     
    They don't access pornography through google or chrome?

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.

    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?
     
    From a journalist-consumer. This was written before this war, who knew Severodonetsk would feature on world news:

    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7573

    “Lola, my whore, came from Severodonetsk, a toxic dump in the Lugansk oblast, the Russified east of Ukraine.I rented her late on Sunday, November 28th — the same day that the Ukrainian governors of several pro-Yanukovich regions were holding a congress in Severodonetsk, threatening to create a breakaway southeastern Ukrainian republic if the “orange” revolution in Kiev succeeded. It was one of those coincidences that writers invent to give a sordid story some relevance — but invention in this case isn’t necessary. We’re talking about whores here, folks. Any john in Moscow knows that Yanukovich country, the pro-Russian southeast of Ukraine, is the snapper-basket of Europe, the white world’s most fertile breeding ground for whores, the Golden Triangle of prostitution production.”

    :::::::::::::::

    And it can be inferred from HIV rates.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.

    “The countries of origin visible to the respondents” – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian. Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?
     
    No, Ukrainians are counted separately. And after the Orange Revolution Ukraine was not unknown.

    Russians second place, after Romanians.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12142-010-0188-1

    More about Russian prostitution:

    "Russia has become one of the largest exporters of women for the sex industry "

    Soviet morality:

    The life of elite prostitutes was portrayed as carefree and prosperous in television and later in a hit movie “Interdevochka.” This mythology of prostitution in the media infiltrated the culture. According to two public opinion polls conducted among high school girls at the end of 1989, prostitution made the top ten of the most prestigious and desirable professions

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!
     
    According to that source. United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems gives a Russian rate of 7.3 and American rate of 6.3:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Definition

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.

    You are a liar – not me
     
    I provided numbers from United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems. That is not a lie. To claim that it is, is - a lie.

    "The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate."

    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.
     
    That is the low estimate from one government department in Russia. You ignored this so I'll rpeat it:

    Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that’s independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky’s team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak.
     
    And someone who was honest would understand that 30 years ago treatment was less effective and less accessible than it is now. Otherwise America's peaks would be much lower.

    Here is the most relevant number:

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    https://i.imgur.com/sCcfes3.png

    Even though Russia has less than half the population of the USA, it has nearly twice as many new cases of HIV.

    So Russia has nearly a 4x higher rate of new HIV infections.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.
     
    And in the USA it's about 7% through IV drug use.

    So remove the drug users and Russia still has about a 2x higher rate of HIV infections.

    But don't pretend that drug abusers aren't degenerate, just because you are one of them.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that’s a lot.
     
    Out of 330 million it is not much. And according to the United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there’s 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.
     
    According to your own source, Russia's numbers can't be counted:

    "Some people theorize that the United States has better record-keeping than some other countries and law enforcement agencies are better at linking murders together. This does hold true for countries like Russia or China in fact, they often do not report them at all unless word somehow gets out to the western press. "

    So we don't know what the real number of serial killers is in Russia. Given that the overall homicide rate is higher until recently, there is no reason to assume as you do that the number is lower.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.
     
    According to Statista. But not according to the UN.

    Actually most sources give a Russian homicide rate of 7.3:

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/murder-homicide-rate

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.
     
    Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

    Remember, you wrote:

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.

     

    I responded: You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    “Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million”

    That’s the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.

    And it shouldn’t be mentioned.
     
    For a degenerate - it shouldn't be.

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.
     
    South Africa has a high HIV rate. The other countries have their own problems but they are less degenerate than the USA, which in turn is less degenerate than Russia.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.
     
    Perhaps you are too stupid to consider more than one variable at once. They have low rates of HIV, murder, abortion, etc.

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;
    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.
     

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.
     
    Okay, this point is valid. Russia is only slightly worse than the USA. But, still worse.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

     

    No Russia on that chart.

    American rate is boosted by Blacks - their rate is 69%.

    Among Euro-Americans it is 28%:

    https://www.ceousa.org/2020/02/26/percentage-of-births-to-unmarried-women/

    In Russia it's slightly worse, 29.4%:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/single-mothers-left-in-charge-of-1-in-3-russian-households-dkmqbctdz

    So, in terms of HIV - Russia a lot worse than USA.
    Murder - Russia worse according to most sources, including UN.
    Abortion - Russia a lot worse
    Divorce - Russia slightly worse
    Kids to unmarried women - Russia slightly worse than the USA's Europeans, but better overall due to Blacks

    Replies: @A123, @Wielgus

  54. @A123
    @Sean


    There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk; people close to Zelensky were complaining of the opposite inasmuch America wanted it enacted It seems clear that Zelnsky was elected to enact Minsk,
     
    I concur.

    Under Trump, it is clear that Ukraine, including the Minsk Agreement, barely registered. The two concepts in play were:
        #1 - Keep America out of it
        #2 - Counter the "Russia, Russia, Russia" myth

    The first option usually won out as policy. The only moderately sized Ukraine package during Trump's term was driven by #2, which was a one-time only tactical decision. The timing aligned to a Putin re-election. The domestic audience required mollification via a symbolic palliative.


    Zelensky is emotionally and politically unstable, or maybe just could not cope with tough decisions if they would make him unpopular among loud nationalists.
     
    WEF Elites obtained control of the suddenly wealthy, international property owner Zelensky. Instead of doing what the Ukrainian people elected him to do, Zekensky became a servant. The same European Globalists who run Not-The-President Biden also puppeteer the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Sean

    Under Trump, it is clear that Ukraine, including the Minsk Agreement, barely registered

    Agreed. During the meeting with Poroshenko, Trump asked his advisors if US troops were in the Donbass, told Porosheko that Ukraine was corrupt , and said Crimea was Russian because it was inhabited by Russians. But Poroshenko is the sort of guy Trump understands, that’s why he talked Trump into authorizing the Javelins.

    Instead of doing what the Ukrainian people elected him to do, Zekensky ….

    The meaning and tenor of Zelensky’s electioneering was that he would secure peace and keep the Donbass within Ukraine, and even get back Crimea, but if you look at what he actually said it was very obscure as to how, and he was completely vague about what concessions he’d give to Russia. In office Zelensky changed, and not for the better.

    “I want to say that I am very grateful to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who just congratulated me on my victory,” Zelensky said at a press conference shortly after polls closed in the April 21 runoff. “I thank him. He said that I can count on his help at any time. He acknowledged my victory and my team’s.”

    First thing Zelensky did was deprive Poroshenko of his TV stations though a law against rich politicians owning them, Poroshenko was then arraigned on twenty criminal charges, including financing terrorism and treason whereupon he decided it was opportune to flee the country take an extended vacation. He came back for the invasion but Zelensky turned up the heat with the now state (ie Zelensky) controlled media pouring out the vials of wrath on him, so he left for London again

  55. @Johnny Rico
    @Beckow

    They will prolly own up around the same time you admit Russia is a long way from "winning" this. Your own understanding of the war will improve when you accept that you have nothing to do with it.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @A123, @Derer

    Russia is a long way from “winning” this

    Save this comment. Read it in six months.

  56. @songbird
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren't evolved for decision-making. I guess it is kind of obvious that historically, we lived in a patriarchal society, where they were the wards of their fathers or brothers, until they married and became the wards of their husbands. But feminists would probably categorize that as women being shackled.

    IMO, to really appreciate the dramatic differences among the sexes, one need only consider the history of England - England which was one the first countries in Europe to develop. Back a few hundred years before the steamship (How many really? Three, four or five tops?), it seems like rape was really common, even among high status women, under escort. (Maybe, that is why, in Ireland, wives walked behind their husbands, well into the 1800s, so they could check the road ahead).

    Personally, I think that really highlights, how much they stayed at home and how little travel they did. Maybe, the Sikh has influenced my thoughts...

    BTW, I did finally catch War of the Arrows a while back. Thought it was a fun film. I intended to watch only the first half, one night, but ended up staying up to watch the whole thing.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren’t evolved for decision-making.

    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president. Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president.
     
    Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her. Though I guess Kamala is a special case, in a different way, since she whored her way to power.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males.
     
    One could probably argue that they were elected by women.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?
     
    I don't think they are trusted, but there are probably other people making the stupid decisions for them.

    Not too put to fine a point on it and seem like too much a sexist. I am not for male universal suffrage either.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  57. @Beckow
    @Sean


    ...There is no evidence that the US were against Minsk
     
    The best evidence that US was against Minsk is the fact that it was not allowed to happen. Between Washington and Porky, who is more powerful? My money is on Washington, if Porky would have his own ideas they would corral him very quickly - he is fully controlled.

    I don't think Porky is self-made - his dad run the chocolate factory that they privatized in the 90's. He is not worth 'billions' although he is rich. And he didn't single-handedly organize the two coups, he was one of the few insiders who did it - but the decisive role was played by their sponsors in the West. You over-estimate Porky's importance. The nationalists are mostly hired mercenaries, angry Ukie men need work.

    He is a mulatto who did his work, now he can go.

    Replies: @Sean

    Poroshenko is no more a tool of hidden forces that Trump is.

    Look at them and you will notice several similarities. Both are being pursued by political enemies now in charge of state criminal ‘justice’ systems.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Sean

    Porky looks like he drinks heavily before meetings to project fake gravitas. Trump is uncomfortable, going through the motions. Porky's wife looks more normal than Melania.

    We see an elderly Porky in a 'belly over the belt' phase. Once that happens there is no character left, he will do anything to keep what he has - and keep feeding that belly. Ascetic leaders can be risky - they tend to be cruel, but they usually maintain some character. These guys have none.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sean

    If I were a negro or a chinese those two guys might be really hard to tell apart.

    Replies: @Sean

  58. @Johnny Rico
    @Beckow

    They will prolly own up around the same time you admit Russia is a long way from "winning" this. Your own understanding of the war will improve when you accept that you have nothing to do with it.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @A123, @Derer

    It depends on how you define “long way”: months? a year? 2-3 years?

    On the other hand “winning” is simply winning. In a war the country that takes more territory wins. So far that would be Russia. The quotes don’t change that.

  59. @songbird
    @Beckow


    Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness.
     
    Women still can't be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.
     
    I'm not going to say that I think the Church (or any church) did a good job fighting poz because I don't think that they did. Frankly, I can't think of any mainstream group, religious or not, that did a good job opposing it. Possibly, part of that relates to lack of vision, and people's inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend. (probably, still operating, even though we have already descended pretty far)

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues. Perhaps, starting with the fact that you can't excommunicate a corporation and going through many others that I believe E. Michael Jones talks about.

    They weren't completely inactive. I recall my hometown church trying to campaign against some awful female judge from South Africa, who ended up voting to legalize gay marriage in the state, which was part of the early push in America and the world to legalize gay marriage.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now - they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don't think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    Replies: @Beckow, @Gerard1234, @Coconuts

    …people’s inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend.

    That is a major part of it: the speed and idiocy of the social descent in the West in the last 10-15 years is shocking.

    rapid socio-political changes that robbed the Church of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues

    It all happened very fast, but in the past churches were able to react – there is no reaction now as the absurdities proliferate. Catholic Church holds the line on women priests, but that is a minor symbolic issue – it would not significantly change the situation, it could even make it better.

    The problem is that Christian institutions have no vigor. The Pope is a weakling, most priests are fat elderly gluttons who at a minimum look like perverts (even if they are not). The failure to adapt is very visible – they look out of place and the pathetic attempts to be relevant exposes them to ridicule.

    If we project what is going on given the demographic collapse, there is not going to be anything resembling traditional European religion in 2-3 generations. The rituals will be abandoned or changed. There will be small islands left in some places, mostly in eastern Europe. The polarization between the ruling liberal elites and the islands of sanity will get so bad that they will gradually split.

    European civilization is based on the aggressive assertion of mostly Christian culture and European ability to get others’ resources. Today Europe is simultaneously losing both. Is it intentional or driven by inevitable changes? Is it encouraged to achieve certain goals? That is not determinable, we can never know, motivations are a chimera and in the long run don’t matter. What matters are results – as of now it looks like not much Europe will be left. And Church bears its responsibility for it. The ‘dog that doesn’t bark’…

  60. @Sean
    @Beckow

    Poroshenko is no more a tool of hidden forces that Trump is.

    https://static.ukrinform.com/photos/2018_09/thumb_files/630_360_1537986449-4983.jpeg

    Look at them and you will notice several similarities. Both are being pursued by political enemies now in charge of state criminal 'justice' systems.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Porky looks like he drinks heavily before meetings to project fake gravitas. Trump is uncomfortable, going through the motions. Porky’s wife looks more normal than Melania.

    We see an elderly Porky in a ‘belly over the belt‘ phase. Once that happens there is no character left, he will do anything to keep what he has – and keep feeding that belly. Ascetic leaders can be risky – they tend to be cruel, but they usually maintain some character. These guys have none.

  61. @Sean
    @Beckow

    Poroshenko is no more a tool of hidden forces that Trump is.

    https://static.ukrinform.com/photos/2018_09/thumb_files/630_360_1537986449-4983.jpeg

    Look at them and you will notice several similarities. Both are being pursued by political enemies now in charge of state criminal 'justice' systems.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Emil Nikola Richard

    If I were a negro or a chinese those two guys might be really hard to tell apart.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Bothe are tall men with enormous craniums who inherited businesses and built them up to amassed fortunes approaching a billion before moving into politics with astounding success.

    There are differences though. Trump ran against Hilary, and Poroshenko was thought to be facing Yulia Tymoshenko before Zelensky came in and won by a landslide despite n, granting few interviews, holding no campaign rallies, and failing to provide details of his policies. Trump is a TV star of course.

  62. @Johnny Rico
    @Beckow

    They will prolly own up around the same time you admit Russia is a long way from "winning" this. Your own understanding of the war will improve when you accept that you have nothing to do with it.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @A123, @Derer

    Russia is a long way from “winning” this

    How far is Ukraine from “winning” this?

    I have yet to hear any credible Ukie offensive plan for crossing open ground in the south to retake Mariupol.

    Upcoming MAGA wins in the House will refocus U.S. appropriations on domestic needs. Do you expect the German Traffic Light coalition to step up and foot the bill? How about Macron?

    Russia’s odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    Russia’s odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.
     
    True enough. What’s more, Kiev talking heads have already acknowledged that their BS about “Kherson counter-offensive” was a purely psychological operation, no real counter-offensive is in sight. Even though Ukraine is using its most combat-ready units there, Ukie troops keep “heroically” retreating in Donbass.

    Replies: @Beckow

  63. @songbird
    @Beckow


    Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness.
     
    Women still can't be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.
     
    I'm not going to say that I think the Church (or any church) did a good job fighting poz because I don't think that they did. Frankly, I can't think of any mainstream group, religious or not, that did a good job opposing it. Possibly, part of that relates to lack of vision, and people's inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend. (probably, still operating, even though we have already descended pretty far)

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues. Perhaps, starting with the fact that you can't excommunicate a corporation and going through many others that I believe E. Michael Jones talks about.

    They weren't completely inactive. I recall my hometown church trying to campaign against some awful female judge from South Africa, who ended up voting to legalize gay marriage in the state, which was part of the early push in America and the world to legalize gay marriage.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now - they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don't think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    Replies: @Beckow, @Gerard1234, @Coconuts

    Women still can’t be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word “cucking” means, so I will make an assumption about it ( and apologise if it is wrong)…..however it’s one thing not allowing woman priests, but to me by far the bigger problem of the Catholic church is not allowing married male priests. A western friend linked me an article a year or two before ( I had been promoting Orthodoxy to him and lambasting the politics of the Catholic Church throughout history) in which the ex Pope, Benedict, having been silent as Pope Emeritus , was suddenly opening his mouth at the possibility of allowing married priests into dioceses in remote parts of the Amazon, where they are struggling to find Priests to go there . It just seemed to be very odd that this weird guy having been completely silent since not ruling as Pope, seemed to be angry at this non-homo policy being proposed in the Catholic Church.

    As far as I know, its not rooted in the Bible the idea of unmarried priests, and certainly most of the Bible is before Christianity and Judaism allows married rabbis.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now – they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don’t think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    Before I would guess these were hugely populated with either Irish or French people. Obviously , Ireland is largely secularised now and had some anti-Catholic church reaction to the paedo thing. French very liberal, often deifying shameful morality, possibly some ridiculous post-colonial guilt complex as from these seminaries and nunneries were people who brought christianity and education to these peoples. This all deserves to ask how come useless scum satanic Poles have not filled up the positions? Big population, millions of emigrants, supposedly Catholic but f**k all constructive role in regeneration of falling Catholic Church of last 20 years

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Gerard1234


    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word “cucking” means
     
    It is a slang word from American partisan social media. Like 99.9999% of all American partisan social media it is used only by retards or people who just do not know any better.

    Since DNA testing was invented cuckoldry is about as relevant to anybody's real life as dueling. Do they still have duels where you live?

    Replies: @songbird

    , @songbird
    @Gerard1234

    Some of the Eastern-rite Catholic churches allow priestly marriage, but they are geographically isolated and only make up 1.5% of the total of nominal Catholics, so are not very influential.

    I myself am in favor of priestly marriage.

    Sure, one can make the argument that it encourages nepotism, and corruption, but I think that has to be weighed against the corruption that homosexuality can cause. And, it is probably much less of a potential factor now, than it may have been in the Middle Ages, when travel and oversight were much more difficult. Probably, there are a number of technical tools that could be used to fight corruption.

    I'm probably something of a radical, but I'd like to see churches screen for pedophiles. I think it is really technically feasible. It may be true that rates of abuse are not greater than in other institutions, but there is still a massive cost to trust, which could be mitigated by orders of magnitude. Would be worth a few false positives not being made priests.

  64. @A123
    @Johnny Rico


    Russia is a long way from “winning” this
     
    How far is Ukraine from "winning" this?

    I have yet to hear any credible Ukie offensive plan for crossing open ground in the south to retake Mariupol.

    Upcoming MAGA wins in the House will refocus U.S. appropriations on domestic needs. Do you expect the German Traffic Light coalition to step up and foot the bill? How about Macron?

    Russia's odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Russia’s odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.

    True enough. What’s more, Kiev talking heads have already acknowledged that their BS about “Kherson counter-offensive” was a purely psychological operation, no real counter-offensive is in sight. Even though Ukraine is using its most combat-ready units there, Ukie troops keep “heroically” retreating in Donbass.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AnonfromTN


    ....“Kherson counter-offensive” was a purely psychological operation
     
    The problem with mixing psych-ops with a real war is that people die needlessly. One could understand Kiev withdrawing to defensible positions in areas where the Russian case for a border change is weak (Kiev and the west) - then they could negotiate with something behind them. But as it is, they are being slowly rolled up with horrific losses. And getting weaker and that makes any negotiation much harder.

    Ukie losses will be a big issue after the war; AP-Mr. Hacks-Latw can talk all they want, they are not doing the sacrifices, but Ukie families and survivors will be very angry. An earlier deal would have been much better for Kiev, why did they reject it? Of course, it demonstrates again that Kiev is doing others' bidding who don't care how many Ukies die as long as Russia also suffers. These are sociopaths who think very little of people living in that region.
  65. @Mikhail
    https://twitter.com/ClaudioGP8/status/1558624780684853249

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @Mr, Hack

    Mickey, Don’t you recognize the guy n the middle? That’s you in the middle. The two medics are hauling you off to the nearest nuthouse, where they’re rounding up all lunatic kremlin stooges and supporters of Putler. They’re’ already knocking on your door, can’t you hear them? 🙂

    • LOL: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @Mr, Hack

    I hope you are better at fishing than commenting. To each his own.

    , @Derer
    @Mr, Hack

    Your pathetic attempt at humor has revealed your very serious incurable decease. Make that visit, they might be able to help you, but I doubt.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  66. @Mr, Hack
    @Mikhail

    Mickey, Don't you recognize the guy n the middle? That's you in the middle. The two medics are hauling you off to the nearest nuthouse, where they're rounding up all lunatic kremlin stooges and supporters of Putler. They're' already knocking on your door, can't you hear them? :-)

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Derer

    I hope you are better at fishing than commenting. To each his own.

    • Agree: Mikhail, Beckow
  67. It was only a matter of time… It has arrived. (1)

    #LGBdroptheT

    It’s happening: “LGB drop the T” keeps trending on Twitter as gay activists turn on transgender activists

    I’ve written on more than one occasion about what far more people than just I have been anticipating for quite some time. Namely, the inevitable clash between gay ideology and transgender theory. Transgenderism relies entirely upon the non-existence of a gender binary, assuming a sliding scale of gender identity that denies there even is such thing as truly “male” or truly “female.” Needless to say, there can be:

    — No gay man if there is no such thing as a man.
    — No lesbian if there is no such thing as a woman.


    it’s important to note that the opposition isn’t all superficial emotionalism. There’s an emerging awareness of what I mentioned above – that trans ideology represents a fundamental threat to gay identity.


    It’s ironic, isn’t it? As traditional conservatives, and even outspoken, high-profile Christian preachers publicly muse about potentially acquiescing to the reality-denying pronoun preferences, it’s lesbian and gay activists demanding an end to the madness for the sake of our children

    The opening is here for Churches and Synagogues to return to traditional Judeo-Christian values. The simply have to exploit divisions among SJW’s.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://notthebee.com/article/its-happening-lgb-drop-the-t

     

     

    [MORE]

     

  68. @Gerard1234
    @songbird


    Women still can’t be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.
     
    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word "cucking" means, so I will make an assumption about it ( and apologise if it is wrong).....however it's one thing not allowing woman priests, but to me by far the bigger problem of the Catholic church is not allowing married male priests. A western friend linked me an article a year or two before ( I had been promoting Orthodoxy to him and lambasting the politics of the Catholic Church throughout history) in which the ex Pope, Benedict, having been silent as Pope Emeritus , was suddenly opening his mouth at the possibility of allowing married priests into dioceses in remote parts of the Amazon, where they are struggling to find Priests to go there . It just seemed to be very odd that this weird guy having been completely silent since not ruling as Pope, seemed to be angry at this non-homo policy being proposed in the Catholic Church.

    As far as I know, its not rooted in the Bible the idea of unmarried priests, and certainly most of the Bible is before Christianity and Judaism allows married rabbis.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now – they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don’t think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)
     
    Before I would guess these were hugely populated with either Irish or French people. Obviously , Ireland is largely secularised now and had some anti-Catholic church reaction to the paedo thing. French very liberal, often deifying shameful morality, possibly some ridiculous post-colonial guilt complex as from these seminaries and nunneries were people who brought christianity and education to these peoples. This all deserves to ask how come useless scum satanic Poles have not filled up the positions? Big population, millions of emigrants, supposedly Catholic but f**k all constructive role in regeneration of falling Catholic Church of last 20 years

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word “cucking” means

    It is a slang word from American partisan social media. Like 99.9999% of all American partisan social media it is used only by retards or people who just do not know any better.

    Since DNA testing was invented cuckoldry is about as relevant to anybody’s real life as dueling. Do they still have duels where you live?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    It is a slang word from American partisan social media. Like 99.9999% of all American partisan social media it is used only by retards or people who just do not know any better.
     
    There's an unfortunate intersection with porn, which makes the word appear low status to many. Be that as it may, I have never heard anyone who crinkles their nose at it suggest a more effective term.

    Strong consonants and low syllable counts are a must, for a word to have power, unless you have the power to make the other side use your word, and in that case the more syllables the better. (but the power is not there.) Ultimately, the word is meant for a limited, masculine, contrarian sphere, and it is arguably very effective within that sphere.

    I might add that encouraging conceptualization of parasitism is a political must for anyone opposed to parasitism and decline.

    Since DNA testing was invented cuckoldry is about as relevant to anybody’s real life as dueling.
     
    That's not really how the new slang is used.

    It is about deferring to interests outside your group genetic interests. This can involve homosexuals of the same group as they often pursue anti-social interests. (and is extremely relevant today - more relevant than ever.)

    The word "cuck" ultimately derives from the word "cuckoo", so its origin is not really base, but evokes observation of nature, or evolutionary biology. The cuckoo lays its eggs in the nests of other species of birds. The eggs hatch early. The alien hatchling often kills the biological ones. Meanwhile, the mother is often so overcome by instinct, that she keeps feeding the alien bird, even as it obtains monstrous size:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Reed_warbler_cuckoo.jpg

    Cuckoos are most often obligate brood parasites, meaning that they cannot raise their own eggs, but must lay them in the nests of other species. And there are many other brood parasites beyond cuckoos. The effects can and have been devastating on different species, particularly where invasive species are concerned. Some have evolved defenses, including colored eggs, specially-shaped nests, or the tendency to abandon the nest and start over.
  69. To AP – the part three.

    Renaissance typically is said to have begun in the 15th century. Only a few scholar stretch it to the 14th. It began in Italy and came to England where Roger Bacon lived much later.

    Typically, there are less of intelligent than stupid people, in any field. So, typically it doesn’t make a good argument – quality is more important.

    And what does it have to do with when Roger Bacon lived, if my point is that his book was banned?

    You are an ignorant 15 year old. Most monasteries were endowed with so called scriptoria as part of their libraries: those were rooms where ancient literature was transcribed.

    No. You are ignorant – not me.

    A lot, if not most of the ancient literature was burned. For example, the treatises on cosmology. Ptolemei’s Almagest, the book that described that the Earth is a sphere, was rediscovered in the end of the 12th century, when it was translated from Arabic.

    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.

    There were many more, than four Gospels as well – most were burned. The Gospel of Thomas was discovered in 1945, it had been buried for two thousand years. A part of the Gospel of Peter was recovered in 1886.

    These two are different from the other four.

    Far more Muslim and Hindu girls undergo child marriage than there are victims of perverse priests.

    Sure – they prefer little boys, not girls. A hundred thousand of little orphans have been molested and raped, in the churches. You defend and support a Satanic pedophile cult.

    As for the Hindu girls, the Hindu Law has fixed the legal age of marriage as 21 years for men and 18 years for women. So, if there are some child marriages, those people are not Hindu.

    You are not born a Hindu. You are a Hindu, when you live like a Hindu.

    But a child marriage used to be a regular thing in Christendom. Until the second half of the 19th century, the marriageable age in Christian countries was set as 12-13.

    And of course, a child marriage and a child molestation is not the same thing.

    These marriages are for the most part a formal engagement to be married, a betrothal. Not an actual marriage.

    Do you really think these children are about to have sex? They haven’t even reached the puberty age yet.

    Theater largely died a couple of centuries before Christianity took over.

    No, it didn’t. There are amphitheaters everywhere – in Palestine, in Morocco. There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.

    He was rediscovered during the Renaissance.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger

    There were even famous actresses and singers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassilla

    So prior to Christianity, Romans watched people killing each other, people getting killed by animals, or nonverbal pantomime shows.

    Prior to Christianity, Romans watched gladiator fights. And theater, with an orchestra, and singers, and musicians.

    And after Christianity had come, there was nothing else to watch but their masses, and public executions of so-called heretics.

    For a thousand years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_theatre

    “Due to a lack of surviving records and texts, low literacy in the general population, and the opposition of the clergy, there are few surviving sources from the Early and High Medieval periods. However, by the late period, performances began to become more secularized; larger number of records survive.”

    For you, with sympathies towards Buddhism, hospitals are of course of little importance – it is more important to gaze at your navel than to help other people.

    The Hindu scriptures contain an big eight-volume book on medicine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

    The topics cover everything from diet to pregnancy, from mental health to surgery – including rhinoplasty, and kidney stone extractions. There are methods of treatment of ears, eyes, nose, and mouth.

    One of the treatises, Sushruta Samhita, even teaches cataract surgery.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita

    “Sushruta’s treatise provides the first written record of a forehead flap rhinoplasty, a technique still used today to reconstruct a nose. The text mentions more than 15 methods to repair it.”

    These treatises were written a thousand years before Christianity.

    And in Christendom they didn’t know even the human anatomy – the Church banned it. For a thousand years they were using a book of Galen of Pergamum, based on dog anatomy. For a thousand years, the Church prohibited studying human anatomy whatsoever.

    Even dissecting a dead human body was strictly prohibited.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy#History

    “Between 1275 and 1326, the anatomists Mondino de Luzzi, Alessandro Achillini and Antonio Benivieni at Bologna carried out the first systematic human dissections since ancient times. Mondino’s Anatomy of 1316 was the first textbook in the medieval rediscovery of human anatomy.”

    So, what hospitals are you talking about? They did blood-letting to the patients, considering it might help.

    They were ignorant.

    [What does architecture, let alone warfare, has to do with the teaching of Christ?] It demonstrates that Christendom fostered scientific advancement.

    No, it doesn’t.

    [Kepler’s mother was accused of witchcraft] And yet he was still a Christian, so strong was his faith.

    No, it wasn’t.

    One could not abandon Christianity – that was an apostasy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Christianity

    A crime that led to the same penalty of death by fire, as heresy. Once baptized after the birth, a man was a property of the Church, forever.

    There was no way out.

    [We are talking about the Church in the context of the Western civilization] No, we are talking about Christianity promoting science and technology, not only the Roman Church specifically.

    The Arab Christians and the Greek Christians, who lived in the Muslim countries, did not have anything to do with Christendom.

    If there had been no Christians there, there would have been nothing to preserve and the Arabs would have had nothing.

    Nonsense.

    The Arabs captured libraries of Alexandria, and Palestine. They invented paper – or learned to make it from the Persians. From the first century after the conquest they established many translation centers, attracted scholars from throughout the world, and began collecting literature to which the Christians didn’t even have any access.

    You overestimate the significance of the Greeks due to your complete ignorance in relation to the Hindu culture. Most of the mathematics were developed not in the ancient Greece – the Greeks didn’t even have a concept of zero, and knew no digits.

    And the digits that we use now we call the Arab digits, but in fact these are the Hindu digits.

    The Arabs learned about medicine and math from the Hindus. The Greeks were great astronomers and philosophers, and were great at art, but it was the Hindu scriptures where most of the medicine was learned from.

    There were no serious mathematics before the Hindus.

    And unlike the Christians, the ancient Greeks were dealing very well with the Hindus. They were sharing knowledge and treated each other with big respect. There was Greco-Buddhism, and it might have become the religion of Europe.

    The Hindu philosophers developed the decimal place value notation and first began using it – introducing the foundation of the modern mathematics. You overestimate the Greeks and underestimate the Hindus.

    “The Hindu–Arabic numeral system reached Western Europe in the 11th century, via Al-Andalus, through Spanish Muslims, the Moors, together with knowledge of classical astronomy and instruments like the astrolabe; Gerbert of Aurillac is credited with reintroducing the lost teachings into Catholic Europe.”

    The great European mathematician Fibonacci said:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0#Transmission_to_Europe

    “But all this even, and the algorism, as well as the art of Pythagoras, I considered as almost a mistake in respect to the method of the Hindus.”

    And the Hindus were also a lot better at music.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaveda#Upanishads

    And this is how the Christians treated science.

    “The Serapeum library was vandalized and demolished in 391 AD under a decree issued by Coptic Christian Pope Theophilus of Alexandria, but it does not seem to have housed books at the time and was mainly used as a gathering place for Neoplatonist philosophers.”

    To be fair, there were cases when the Muslim fanatics burned libraries as well. But those happened on a rare occasion, and whereas their policies were directed at preservation and accumulation of knowledge.

    For the Christians it was the other way round.

    The Renaissance began in large part because Greeks moved West.

    Therefore, you agree, that the Roman Church was the reason of the Dark Ages.

    “These émigrés brought to Western Europe the well-preserved remnants and accumulated knowledge of their own civilization, which had not survived the Middle Ages in the West.”

    The knowledge of the greatest heritage, that the European people had, could not survive the Middle Ages in the West – this is how the Church promoted science.

    Hello.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Here Be Dragon


    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.
     
    What's your source for that? It's true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed (though curiously enough letters and other works by Julian were preserved by Byzantine scribes, making him one of the best-known ancient personalities), and Justinian did close down the Academy...but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts (as opposed to neglect, failure to copy them again and re-purposing of the papyrus/parchment they were written on)? Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization...which didn't preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all (instead just used them as a quarry to extract some useful knowledge, then discarded them) and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
    I'm not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which just make you look silly.

    There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.
     
    iirc there's not much evidence his tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren't intended to be.
    Seneca (pretty boring writer from what I've seen of him) was a favorite of the Christians btw, they even invented an epistolary exchange between him and St Paul.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon

    , @songbird
    @Here Be Dragon

    Johann Martin Honigberger noted an impressive nose reconstruction done in the mountains, after Ranjit Singh (BTW, used to know someone by that name) had the hands, ears, and nose of someone who displeased him cut off. He said that it was as good as any operation that was done in Europe at the time.

    But I am unfamiliar with cataract surgery in India in the 1800s. The Quaker adventurer Josiah Harlan often performed cataract surgery, when he traveled, and it seemed as though word got around, and people came from far and wide to have their sight restored by him, though the operation was very primitive.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon

  70. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Seems to me that Christianity has very little, if anything to do with the decline of the West.
     
    There are parallels here to Judaism. Something like 50% of all Jewish births in the UK are now Orthodox. Jewish TFR in the UK is a respectable 2.6 per woman - and rising. Laketown of New Jersey, a heavily Orthodox town, now has a birth rate matching that of Niger. Its population grows by 4.5 to 5% per year.

    Meanwhile, the mainstream Jewish denominations are getting completely destroyed by a combination of sky-high intermarriage rates and rock-bottom fertility.

    The same patterns seem to hold in Christianity, where it is the radical protestant sects who are leading the change (as I've long noted to AP) whereas Catholicism is collapsing. Perhaps the most radical break with modernity are the Amish but the evangelical Christians more broadly are rapidly gaining ground, too, even in traditionally Catholic strongholds like Latinx America.

    Neither religion caused what is happening, and took huge bodyblows in the process, yet both are in their own ways re-configuring themselves with Judaism ahead in front.


    The first being wealth generation which encourages increasing parasitism.
     
    Feudal lords in Europe did plenty of parasitism. Economic egalitarianism would if anything help fertility, if it meant cheap housing/living conditions (though that might have dysgenic effects, which is another topic). I think the problem is rather what you hint at in your next paragraph.

    The second problem is that technology and modern living have outpaced our socio-cultural adaptions.
     
    The atomisation of society has paradoxically meant that less time can be devoted to children as we're less able (on average) to offload the work burden onto others, presumably family members. This has the natural effect of lowering fertility, as white people are generally K-selected (meaning high investment in each children) rather than r-selected (e.g. blacks).

    There are ways to be both high-investment in your offspring and have plenty of kids, but then you need a community ecosystem to support it. That's what a lot of people don't have these days, so they don't have as many kids. The outliers (Orthodox Jews, Amish) do, and hence they can indulge themselves.


    And diversity has to a large extent weakened the ability to form new ones, just as it is becoming super-evident that we need new ones.
     
    There's of course a trade-off between fertility and modernity. We've arguably gone too far in the latter direction but there's tremendous value of having a core "high-breeder" population the way that the Haredim act for Jews and potentially Amish can for whites (in a century or two). I don't think it's feasible for everyone to become a certain way. Division of labour is necessary. Just have your religious fanatics well taken-care of.

    The main challenge would be to convince those who create economic surplus to subsidisie the breeders. This is today one of the biggest fault lines in Israel as the secular hiloni don't feel too excited about funding the Haredi lifestyle while the latter are a massive net-drain on the taxpayers. It's a delicate balance, even in a highly nationalistic state such as Israel. I think your point about it being made harder in a multicultural setting is all the more valid.

    Replies: @songbird

    Feudal lords in Europe did plenty of parasitism.

    Don’t disagree, but I like how there was supposed to be at least a nominal two-way allegiance. Feudal lords, after all, did a lot to curtail the raiding of Vikings and Barbary pirates. Seems completely missing today, even in theory, despite its undeniable appeal.

    Not to try to romanticize the life of a medieval peasant or even a feudal lord, but back then they at least had a taboo against extractive banking. Exploiting people by force, whatever the brutality, at least involves a shred of courage.

    I think there is also a big contrast in the level of rootedness. Feudal wealth was difficult to move and often spent feasting local retainers. While modern wealth is ultra-fungible. One can move it across vast distances, and disguise its origin and its effects. Use it to lobby for policies in countries where one has never set foot.

    I think the wealthy are more cloistered now than they have ever been. And it is not only the wealthy that can be a problem. Having reached dizzying heights of complexity, modern wealth allows for dizzying abuses of social trust. There is so much complexity without much oversight. Horrible things are happening in colleges and in the government because of the increased revenues of extraction. People are given jobs which are explicitly designed to harass others. It would have been unthinkable 60 years ago.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  71. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Sean

    If I were a negro or a chinese those two guys might be really hard to tell apart.

    Replies: @Sean

    Bothe are tall men with enormous craniums who inherited businesses and built them up to amassed fortunes approaching a billion before moving into politics with astounding success.

    There are differences though. Trump ran against Hilary, and Poroshenko was thought to be facing Yulia Tymoshenko before Zelensky came in and won by a landslide despite n, granting few interviews, holding no campaign rallies, and failing to provide details of his policies. Trump is a TV star of course.

  72. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren’t evolved for decision-making.
     
    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president. Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?

    Replies: @songbird

    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president.

    Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her. Though I guess Kamala is a special case, in a different way, since she whored her way to power.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males.

    One could probably argue that they were elected by women.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?

    I don’t think they are trusted, but there are probably other people making the stupid decisions for them.

    Not too put to fine a point on it and seem like too much a sexist. I am not for male universal suffrage either.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    I am not for male universal suffrage either.
     
    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    Going by property is essentially what we have in the US oligarchy already. Fat cats own the government at all levels, as well as MSM feeding sheeple elite-approved lies.

    Any constructive ideas?

    Replies: @German_reader, @A123, @songbird

    , @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her.
     
    In 19th century Ukraine villagers still made groups of women swim to see if they are witches. These 'witches swims' were an ancient tradition when something bad happened: disease, poor harvest, drought. They had to wear clothes, so it was not about that, it was a form of human sacrifice to appease divinity or fate.

    Women had it hard, whoring to power was almost the only way they could acquire power, Kamala simply followed the easy road. The Finnish lady is a lost soul, her rainbow past and a total lack of critical thinking (I listened to her) are a dangerous combination. So she goes clubbing, one feels sorry for the seals.

    Replies: @A123

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @songbird

    With Sanna's partying videos having emerged (btw I consider her to be very hot) its worth noting that even during Europe's most patriarchal period, there was massive body of literature devoted to simping--

    Les Misérables, Père Goriot, Romeo and Juliet, Great Expectations, Divine Comedy, Tristan, and above all, Werther.

    I must admit I was at one time moved by this, but one must consider this is somewhat unique in world civilization and perhaps having a pernicious blowback.

    For example in Romance of Three Kingdoms--


    Liu Bei said, "The ancient had a saying: 'Brothers are as hands and feet; wives and children are as clothing. You may mend your torn dress, but who can reattach a lost limb?'

     

    https://ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch15

    Basically bros before hoes.

    Certainly modern East Asia the male role is also emasculated but at least there's a far less influential literary tradition devoted to simping, thus there's some insulation from toxic femininity
    https://i.postimg.cc/2ySqsCQn/cjk.jpg
    外面 outside home 家里 at home

    Replies: @songbird

  73. @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    Russia’s odds are overwhelmingly better than those for the Kiev regime.
     
    True enough. What’s more, Kiev talking heads have already acknowledged that their BS about “Kherson counter-offensive” was a purely psychological operation, no real counter-offensive is in sight. Even though Ukraine is using its most combat-ready units there, Ukie troops keep “heroically” retreating in Donbass.

    Replies: @Beckow

    ….“Kherson counter-offensive” was a purely psychological operation

    The problem with mixing psych-ops with a real war is that people die needlessly. One could understand Kiev withdrawing to defensible positions in areas where the Russian case for a border change is weak (Kiev and the west) – then they could negotiate with something behind them. But as it is, they are being slowly rolled up with horrific losses. And getting weaker and that makes any negotiation much harder.

    Ukie losses will be a big issue after the war; AP-Mr. Hacks-Latw can talk all they want, they are not doing the sacrifices, but Ukie families and survivors will be very angry. An earlier deal would have been much better for Kiev, why did they reject it? Of course, it demonstrates again that Kiev is doing others’ bidding who don’t care how many Ukies die as long as Russia also suffers. These are sociopaths who think very little of people living in that region.

  74. @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president.
     
    Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her. Though I guess Kamala is a special case, in a different way, since she whored her way to power.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males.
     
    One could probably argue that they were elected by women.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?
     
    I don't think they are trusted, but there are probably other people making the stupid decisions for them.

    Not too put to fine a point on it and seem like too much a sexist. I am not for male universal suffrage either.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I am not for male universal suffrage either.

    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    Going by property is essentially what we have in the US oligarchy already. Fat cats own the government at all levels, as well as MSM feeding sheeple elite-approved lies.

    Any constructive ideas?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AnonfromTN

    iirc Guillaume Durocher once proposed (maybe somewhat jokingly) a test in Greek/Latin classics as qualification, alongside other possibilities like military service.
    imo it would also be a good idea to automatically disenfranchise anybody with a degree in political science and sociology. Journalists also shouldn't have any political rights.

    , @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.
     
    An enforceable solution for adults could be based on voter registration:

    GOP -- Full citizen
    DNC, Green, Communist, and unregistered -- NON-citizen
    Other registrations -- Limited citizenship

    Full citizens -- have the vote including federal, and all programs
    Limited citizens -- only state & local voting, eligible for safety net support
    NON-Citizens -- no vote, no support

    One admits this is less than fair, however an essential characteristic for successful de-Nazification is effectiveness. Most of America's dross would be swept away in one step.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    , @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.
     
    IQ and politics is an interesting study. I know someone who frankly is probably functionally illiterate, but who has a lot of the right instincts, when it comes to politics. And I think it is obvious that there are many opposite cases.

    Any constructive ideas?
     
    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness. Sounds like scifi, but I think it might be technically possible, if not now, at least in the future.

    Personally, I'd like to see something like Metaculus instituted on a political level, as well as quizzes on different subjects. (Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.) There should be better public feedback on the stupidity of those in power.

    As far as voting goes, I like the idea of weighted votes. At the very least, it might be a way to try to encourage certain socially desirable behaviors, like encouraging people to get married or stay married, or marry responsibly, or have children.

    I think that people on welfare shouldn't be allowed to vote. Probably public employees too.

    Of course, the difficulty is instituting any of those ideas.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

  75. @Gerard1234
    @songbird


    Women still can’t be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.
     
    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word "cucking" means, so I will make an assumption about it ( and apologise if it is wrong).....however it's one thing not allowing woman priests, but to me by far the bigger problem of the Catholic church is not allowing married male priests. A western friend linked me an article a year or two before ( I had been promoting Orthodoxy to him and lambasting the politics of the Catholic Church throughout history) in which the ex Pope, Benedict, having been silent as Pope Emeritus , was suddenly opening his mouth at the possibility of allowing married priests into dioceses in remote parts of the Amazon, where they are struggling to find Priests to go there . It just seemed to be very odd that this weird guy having been completely silent since not ruling as Pope, seemed to be angry at this non-homo policy being proposed in the Catholic Church.

    As far as I know, its not rooted in the Bible the idea of unmarried priests, and certainly most of the Bible is before Christianity and Judaism allows married rabbis.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now – they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don’t think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)
     
    Before I would guess these were hugely populated with either Irish or French people. Obviously , Ireland is largely secularised now and had some anti-Catholic church reaction to the paedo thing. French very liberal, often deifying shameful morality, possibly some ridiculous post-colonial guilt complex as from these seminaries and nunneries were people who brought christianity and education to these peoples. This all deserves to ask how come useless scum satanic Poles have not filled up the positions? Big population, millions of emigrants, supposedly Catholic but f**k all constructive role in regeneration of falling Catholic Church of last 20 years

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird

    Some of the Eastern-rite Catholic churches allow priestly marriage, but they are geographically isolated and only make up 1.5% of the total of nominal Catholics, so are not very influential.

    I myself am in favor of priestly marriage.

    Sure, one can make the argument that it encourages nepotism, and corruption, but I think that has to be weighed against the corruption that homosexuality can cause. And, it is probably much less of a potential factor now, than it may have been in the Middle Ages, when travel and oversight were much more difficult. Probably, there are a number of technical tools that could be used to fight corruption.

    I’m probably something of a radical, but I’d like to see churches screen for pedophiles. I think it is really technically feasible. It may be true that rates of abuse are not greater than in other institutions, but there is still a massive cost to trust, which could be mitigated by orders of magnitude. Would be worth a few false positives not being made priests.

  76. @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Yes, Finnish PM is just as stupid as German foreign minister, or as the US vice-president.
     
    Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her. Though I guess Kamala is a special case, in a different way, since she whored her way to power.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males.
     
    One could probably argue that they were elected by women.

    Yet the US president, German chancellor, BoJo, or Ukrainian clown-in-chief are all males. Is any of these personages smarter than a brick? Can any of them be trusted with decision making?
     
    I don't think they are trusted, but there are probably other people making the stupid decisions for them.

    Not too put to fine a point on it and seem like too much a sexist. I am not for male universal suffrage either.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @Beckow, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    …Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her.

    In 19th century Ukraine villagers still made groups of women swim to see if they are witches. These ‘witches swims‘ were an ancient tradition when something bad happened: disease, poor harvest, drought. They had to wear clothes, so it was not about that, it was a form of human sacrifice to appease divinity or fate.

    Women had it hard, whoring to power was almost the only way they could acquire power, Kamala simply followed the easy road. The Finnish lady is a lost soul, her rainbow past and a total lack of critical thinking (I listened to her) are a dangerous combination. So she goes clubbing, one feels sorry for the seals.

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow


    So she goes clubbing, one feels sorry for the seals.
     
    GROAN...

    So what do seals take at the rave? MDMA?

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/c8/ed/d3c8ed501a3af762416df552c24836de.jpg
  77. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    I am not for male universal suffrage either.
     
    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    Going by property is essentially what we have in the US oligarchy already. Fat cats own the government at all levels, as well as MSM feeding sheeple elite-approved lies.

    Any constructive ideas?

    Replies: @German_reader, @A123, @songbird

    iirc Guillaume Durocher once proposed (maybe somewhat jokingly) a test in Greek/Latin classics as qualification, alongside other possibilities like military service.
    imo it would also be a good idea to automatically disenfranchise anybody with a degree in political science and sociology. Journalists also shouldn’t have any political rights.

  78. German_reader says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – the part three.

    Renaissance typically is said to have begun in the 15th century. Only a few scholar stretch it to the 14th. It began in Italy and came to England where Roger Bacon lived much later.
     
    Typically, there are less of intelligent than stupid people, in any field. So, typically it doesn't make a good argument – quality is more important.

    And what does it have to do with when Roger Bacon lived, if my point is that his book was banned?

    You are an ignorant 15 year old. Most monasteries were endowed with so called scriptoria as part of their libraries: those were rooms where ancient literature was transcribed.
     
    No. You are ignorant – not me.

    A lot, if not most of the ancient literature was burned. For example, the treatises on cosmology. Ptolemei's Almagest, the book that described that the Earth is a sphere, was rediscovered in the end of the 12th century, when it was translated from Arabic.

    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.

    There were many more, than four Gospels as well – most were burned. The Gospel of Thomas was discovered in 1945, it had been buried for two thousand years. A part of the Gospel of Peter was recovered in 1886.

    These two are different from the other four.

    Far more Muslim and Hindu girls undergo child marriage than there are victims of perverse priests.
     
    Sure – they prefer little boys, not girls. A hundred thousand of little orphans have been molested and raped, in the churches. You defend and support a Satanic pedophile cult.

    As for the Hindu girls, the Hindu Law has fixed the legal age of marriage as 21 years for men and 18 years for women. So, if there are some child marriages, those people are not Hindu.

    You are not born a Hindu. You are a Hindu, when you live like a Hindu.

    But a child marriage used to be a regular thing in Christendom. Until the second half of the 19th century, the marriageable age in Christian countries was set as 12-13.

    And of course, a child marriage and a child molestation is not the same thing.

    These marriages are for the most part a formal engagement to be married, a betrothal. Not an actual marriage.

    https://i.postimg.cc/nzdhVtpC/A-child-marriage.jpg

    Do you really think these children are about to have sex? They haven't even reached the puberty age yet.

    Theater largely died a couple of centuries before Christianity took over.
     
    No, it didn't. There are amphitheaters everywhere – in Palestine, in Morocco. There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.

    He was rediscovered during the Renaissance.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger

    There were even famous actresses and singers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassilla

    So prior to Christianity, Romans watched people killing each other, people getting killed by animals, or nonverbal pantomime shows.
     
    Prior to Christianity, Romans watched gladiator fights. And theater, with an orchestra, and singers, and musicians.

    And after Christianity had come, there was nothing else to watch but their masses, and public executions of so-called heretics.

    For a thousand years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_theatre

    "Due to a lack of surviving records and texts, low literacy in the general population, and the opposition of the clergy, there are few surviving sources from the Early and High Medieval periods. However, by the late period, performances began to become more secularized; larger number of records survive."

    For you, with sympathies towards Buddhism, hospitals are of course of little importance – it is more important to gaze at your navel than to help other people.
     
    The Hindu scriptures contain an big eight-volume book on medicine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

    The topics cover everything from diet to pregnancy, from mental health to surgery – including rhinoplasty, and kidney stone extractions. There are methods of treatment of ears, eyes, nose, and mouth.

    One of the treatises, Sushruta Samhita, even teaches cataract surgery.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita

    "Sushruta's treatise provides the first written record of a forehead flap rhinoplasty, a technique still used today to reconstruct a nose. The text mentions more than 15 methods to repair it."

    These treatises were written a thousand years before Christianity.

    And in Christendom they didn't know even the human anatomy – the Church banned it. For a thousand years they were using a book of Galen of Pergamum, based on dog anatomy. For a thousand years, the Church prohibited studying human anatomy whatsoever.

    Even dissecting a dead human body was strictly prohibited.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy#History

    "Between 1275 and 1326, the anatomists Mondino de Luzzi, Alessandro Achillini and Antonio Benivieni at Bologna carried out the first systematic human dissections since ancient times. Mondino's Anatomy of 1316 was the first textbook in the medieval rediscovery of human anatomy."

    So, what hospitals are you talking about? They did blood-letting to the patients, considering it might help.

    They were ignorant.

    [What does architecture, let alone warfare, has to do with the teaching of Christ?] It demonstrates that Christendom fostered scientific advancement.
     
    No, it doesn't.

    [Kepler’s mother was accused of witchcraft] And yet he was still a Christian, so strong was his faith.
     
    No, it wasn't.

    One could not abandon Christianity – that was an apostasy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Christianity

    A crime that led to the same penalty of death by fire, as heresy. Once baptized after the birth, a man was a property of the Church, forever.

    There was no way out.

    [We are talking about the Church in the context of the Western civilization] No, we are talking about Christianity promoting science and technology, not only the Roman Church specifically.
     
    The Arab Christians and the Greek Christians, who lived in the Muslim countries, did not have anything to do with Christendom.

    If there had been no Christians there, there would have been nothing to preserve and the Arabs would have had nothing.
     
    Nonsense.

    The Arabs captured libraries of Alexandria, and Palestine. They invented paper – or learned to make it from the Persians. From the first century after the conquest they established many translation centers, attracted scholars from throughout the world, and began collecting literature to which the Christians didn't even have any access.

    You overestimate the significance of the Greeks due to your complete ignorance in relation to the Hindu culture. Most of the mathematics were developed not in the ancient Greece – the Greeks didn't even have a concept of zero, and knew no digits.

    And the digits that we use now we call the Arab digits, but in fact these are the Hindu digits.

    The Arabs learned about medicine and math from the Hindus. The Greeks were great astronomers and philosophers, and were great at art, but it was the Hindu scriptures where most of the medicine was learned from.

    There were no serious mathematics before the Hindus.

    And unlike the Christians, the ancient Greeks were dealing very well with the Hindus. They were sharing knowledge and treated each other with big respect. There was Greco-Buddhism, and it might have become the religion of Europe.

    The Hindu philosophers developed the decimal place value notation and first began using it – introducing the foundation of the modern mathematics. You overestimate the Greeks and underestimate the Hindus.

    "The Hindu–Arabic numeral system reached Western Europe in the 11th century, via Al-Andalus, through Spanish Muslims, the Moors, together with knowledge of classical astronomy and instruments like the astrolabe; Gerbert of Aurillac is credited with reintroducing the lost teachings into Catholic Europe."

    The great European mathematician Fibonacci said:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0#Transmission_to_Europe

    "But all this even, and the algorism, as well as the art of Pythagoras, I considered as almost a mistake in respect to the method of the Hindus."

    And the Hindus were also a lot better at music.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaveda#Upanishads

    And this is how the Christians treated science.

    "The Serapeum library was vandalized and demolished in 391 AD under a decree issued by Coptic Christian Pope Theophilus of Alexandria, but it does not seem to have housed books at the time and was mainly used as a gathering place for Neoplatonist philosophers."

    To be fair, there were cases when the Muslim fanatics burned libraries as well. But those happened on a rare occasion, and whereas their policies were directed at preservation and accumulation of knowledge.

    For the Christians it was the other way round.

    The Renaissance began in large part because Greeks moved West.
     
    Therefore, you agree, that the Roman Church was the reason of the Dark Ages.

    "These émigrés brought to Western Europe the well-preserved remnants and accumulated knowledge of their own civilization, which had not survived the Middle Ages in the West."

    The knowledge of the greatest heritage, that the European people had, could not survive the Middle Ages in the West – this is how the Church promoted science.

    Hello.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.

    What’s your source for that? It’s true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed (though curiously enough letters and other works by Julian were preserved by Byzantine scribes, making him one of the best-known ancient personalities), and Justinian did close down the Academy…but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts (as opposed to neglect, failure to copy them again and re-purposing of the papyrus/parchment they were written on)? Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization…which didn’t preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all (instead just used them as a quarry to extract some useful knowledge, then discarded them) and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
    I’m not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which just make you look silly.

    There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.

    iirc there’s not much evidence his tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren’t intended to be.
    Seneca (pretty boring writer from what I’ve seen of him) was a favorite of the Christians btw, they even invented an epistolary exchange between him and St Paul.

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
    @German_reader


    What’s your source for that? It’s true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed; but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts?
     
    My knowledge of it comes from reading an assortment of various sources a long time ago, none of which in particular comes to my mind now. But it isn't hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.

    First of all, these anti-Christian writings weren't propaganda brochures. Porphyry's Against the Christians consisted of fifteen books. That was a meticulous and elaborate treatise, and yet no copies of this book exist. Not even one, not even a piece of it.

    We know about it from the citations and references to it in the treatises of the Christian apologetics. Porphyry was criticizing the writings of Christian philosophers and theologians. He apparently won that debate.

    "Some thirty Christian apologists, such as Methodius, Eusebius, Apollinaris, Augustine, Jerome, etc., responded to his challenge." And nevertheless, the Emperor ordered every copy of it to be burned. Maybe, if it had not been burned, Christianity would have lost.

    Maybe, it would not have lasted for a thousand years then.

    And that was not the only treatise of Porphyry that was lost. The same as many other works of the followers of Plato and Plotinus, for what they taught was incompatible with the Bible – but was in accord with the Hindu and the Buddhist thought.

    Perhaps you haven't read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well. That book is the entire compendium of the Greek astronomy and mathematics, in thirteen volumes. The magnum opus of his life.

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later. So tell me, how could that have happened, if the pious monks were so diligently copying these books in scriptoriums.

    How could such a book disappear without trace for a thousand years?

    Or the work of Democritus, who wrote at least 50 treatises on various topics, and none of which survived in completeness – because he was talking about atoms and void; that between atoms, there lies empty space. That's in essence a Hindu or a Buddhist thought.

    The Neoplatonic school, and its doctrine of reincarnation, was what they hated the most. There's no doubt that they were influenced, because so any similarities with the Buddhist and Hindu theories can't be a coincidence.

    Eventually the last of them had to leave Europe.

    One of the last was a woman, Hypatia. And a Coptic bishop wrote about her, "there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles."

    She was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia

    Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization, which didn’t preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
     
    First of all, what makes you say that they didn’t preserve any of the texts in their original form?

    For example, the aforementioned here Almagest was translated to Arabic from Greek and appeared in Europe in translation, but in the 16th century the Greek original resurfaced as well. For what a strange reason might they have not preserved the original text?

    Of course, they did.

    And how can you say that they had no interest in the ancient literature, when there are so many great Persian and Hindu stories translated into Arabic, and a lot of others, written originally in Arabic – like One Thousand and One Nights, and when there are so many traditions of Arabic poetry?

    And the earliest known science fiction novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature

    Regarding historiography, who do you think wrote it for them – Christians?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_historians

    Speaking of which, here is an example of their, Christians, interest in historiography.

    "We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction." – Diego de Landa, a Spanish Franciscan bishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Yucatán.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

    "Landa claimed that he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice and other idolatrous practices while rooting out native idolatry. Although one of the alleged victims of said sacrifices, Mani Encomendero Dasbatés, was later found to be alive."

    "Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times." – Michael D. Coe, an American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

    "Ninety-nine percent of what we today know of the Mayas, we know as the result either of what Landa has told us in the pages that follow, or have learned in the use of what he told." – William Gates, the renowned scholar, translator, and editor.

    Pope Urban II called the Muslims a vile race, that woshiped the devil, before the first Crusade. Had he managed to exterminate them, we would have never heard about One Thousand and One Nights, Al-Biruni, and Omar Khayyam.

    And though the Qur'an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

    And though they conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.

    And they were arguably the first in the western part of the earth to open universities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Education

    So yes, my view of their civilization is rather positive than negative, and if it was up to me to choose between the two religions for Europe, it might have been them.

    They created a great tradition of architecture and music, literature, science, poetry, and had a better relationship between various peoples within their world, did not commit the atrocities that the Christians did, and had been very successful – until the Europeans gave them a bit of the Christian love.

    And to be fair, they were not, and even less so are now, perfect; not even close – but who is?

    My favorite tradition is Yoga and Vedanta. One of these, or both, would be my religion of choice; if not one of these then Tibetan Buddhism.

    And even they are not perfect.

    I’m not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which make you look silly.
     
    Forgive me if my rhetorical abilities are not sophisticated enough for you, but to be honest simple speech appeals to me more, so consider me whatever you want. However, you haven't yet presented even one reasonable argument in defence of your criticism of mine.

    Not to mention that you lean to do it in a very rude manner.

    You haven't yet as well written anything that, in my humble opinion, was even remotely interesting or to a degree, forgive me, intelligent.

    You are calling me silly while saying something as ridiculous, as this paragraph of yours below.

    There’s not much evidence his [Seneca] tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren’t intended to be.
     
    And you are calling me cartoonish?

    Yes, son – we cannot even prove he at all existed. They did not have the internet back then.

    Hello.


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.

    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

  79. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    I am not for male universal suffrage either.
     
    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    Going by property is essentially what we have in the US oligarchy already. Fat cats own the government at all levels, as well as MSM feeding sheeple elite-approved lies.

    Any constructive ideas?

    Replies: @German_reader, @A123, @songbird

    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    An enforceable solution for adults could be based on voter registration:

    GOP — Full citizen
    DNC, Green, Communist, and unregistered — NON-citizen
    Other registrations — Limited citizenship

    Full citizens — have the vote including federal, and all programs
    Limited citizens — only state & local voting, eligible for safety net support
    NON-Citizens — no vote, no support

    One admits this is less than fair, however an essential characteristic for successful de-Nazification is effectiveness. Most of America’s dross would be swept away in one step.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    GOP — Full citizen
     
    I recently saw an excellent comment: “I like it when Republicans in Congress open their mouths to remind us that Democrats are not the only morons there”.

    Replies: @A123

  80. @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...Finnish PM is kind of a special case because she goes clubbing and also has a coven of witches around her.
     
    In 19th century Ukraine villagers still made groups of women swim to see if they are witches. These 'witches swims' were an ancient tradition when something bad happened: disease, poor harvest, drought. They had to wear clothes, so it was not about that, it was a form of human sacrifice to appease divinity or fate.

    Women had it hard, whoring to power was almost the only way they could acquire power, Kamala simply followed the easy road. The Finnish lady is a lost soul, her rainbow past and a total lack of critical thinking (I listened to her) are a dangerous combination. So she goes clubbing, one feels sorry for the seals.

    Replies: @A123

    So she goes clubbing, one feels sorry for the seals.

    GROAN…

    So what do seals take at the rave? MDMA?

    PEACE 😇

     

  81. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    I am not for male universal suffrage either.
     
    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    Going by property is essentially what we have in the US oligarchy already. Fat cats own the government at all levels, as well as MSM feeding sheeple elite-approved lies.

    Any constructive ideas?

    Replies: @German_reader, @A123, @songbird

    Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.

    IQ and politics is an interesting study. I know someone who frankly is probably functionally illiterate, but who has a lot of the right instincts, when it comes to politics. And I think it is obvious that there are many opposite cases.

    Any constructive ideas?

    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness. Sounds like scifi, but I think it might be technically possible, if not now, at least in the future.

    Personally, I’d like to see something like Metaculus instituted on a political level, as well as quizzes on different subjects. (Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.) There should be better public feedback on the stupidity of those in power.

    As far as voting goes, I like the idea of weighted votes. At the very least, it might be a way to try to encourage certain socially desirable behaviors, like encouraging people to get married or stay married, or marry responsibly, or have children.

    I think that people on welfare shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Probably public employees too.

    Of course, the difficulty is instituting any of those ideas.

    • Replies: @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness.
     
    As many examples show, someone might enter politics as an honest person and become hopelessly corrupted after that. There are many good American jokes about politicians, like these two:

    - How do you know that the politician is lying?
    - His lips are moving.

    An honest politician is one who once bought stays bought.

    Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.
     
    Thing is, 99% of the US residents would flunk this test.

    Replies: @songbird

  82. To AP – the part four.

    More 15 year old circular logic [Communism was following the footsteps of the Catholic Church]. Even though the Communists were militant atheists, they did something you didn’t like so they were like some kind of Christians.

    You don’t even understand my logic.

    And your misunderstanding of my logic is a reflection of yours; and it is you, and not me, who is primitive and infantile.

    Communism was a religion!

    The same as Christianity. A make-believe ideology, that defies common sense and requires faith. Materialism is a religion, and atheism is a religion – why is this so difficult to understand?

    They said, that there will be Paradise on earth. They said, that there was nothing but matter. This requires faith. Therefore, it is a religion.

    They had their own Patriarch collection, or call them the New Church Fathers. They had a Messiah, and his apostles. They even had a Pope – Stalin, and he had his cardinals, and his bishops; the entire structure of the Communist party followed the Vatican template.

    They used the same method to establish their dominance. Persecuted and slaughtered heretics, until they disappeared.

    They lied, and replaced the traditional institutions with their own. They controlled marriage and birth, law and death, with their own rules.

    And they did use the same iconography, to promote and propagate their new faith. They even built a Persian ziggurat for their Messiah, which is not surprisingly looked very much alike to the one of the Biblical hero Cyrus the Great.

    “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven, given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.” – The Book of Ezra, 1:2.

    Did you think they were stupid?

    They even established a tradition of pilgrimage.

    [MORE]

    This is a religion, with its own symbols and creed. The star, the hammer and sickle – it’s the same as the Freemasonry, on the inside, and as Christianity on the outside.

    Your picture of Mao looks more like Buddha than like Christ.

    Well, your picture of the Buddha is a hippie fake, which is painted ore like a Christian icon. The real Buddhist iconography looks very different from that.

    This particular poster of Mao is an imitation of a popular Christian composition, like The Ascension of our Lord.

    A figure of Christ as the Sun with a crowd of devotees below.

    The composition is the same, the manner of execution is a bit different. The similarities are obvious – it’s impossible to not see.

    And here is another example, a star above the head.

    Though not the most similar of what there is; and there are others of the same composition, more like the one below.

    Communism was a religion.

    A fake religion, like that of the Catholic Church – with two faces, one for the people and one for the shepherds.

    • Replies: @nickels
    @Here Be Dragon

    Communism was a perversion of the Christian religion.
    No Christianity of non protestant ilk ever said earth would be a paradise- only suffering. The paradise is in the world to come.

  83. @A123
    @AnonfromTN


    Problem is, how the voting rights can be limited in a meaningful way? Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.
     
    An enforceable solution for adults could be based on voter registration:

    GOP -- Full citizen
    DNC, Green, Communist, and unregistered -- NON-citizen
    Other registrations -- Limited citizenship

    Full citizens -- have the vote including federal, and all programs
    Limited citizens -- only state & local voting, eligible for safety net support
    NON-Citizens -- no vote, no support

    One admits this is less than fair, however an essential characteristic for successful de-Nazification is effectiveness. Most of America's dross would be swept away in one step.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    GOP — Full citizen

    I recently saw an excellent comment: “I like it when Republicans in Congress open their mouths to remind us that Democrats are not the only morons there”.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AnonfromTN

    I do not think you were intentionally strawmanning, but it helps if you avoid reductions that could be easily construed as cherry picking.

    You should have gone with something like this:



    An enforceable solution for adults could be based on voter registration:

    One admits this is less than fair, however an essential characteristic for successful de-Nazification is effectiveness. Most of America’s dross would be swept away in one step.
     

    I recently saw an excellent comment: “I like it when Republicans in Congress open their mouths to remind us that Democrats are not the only morons there”.
     
    There are certainly awful elected Republicans. Liz Cheney and Mitch McConnell spring immediately to mind.

    However, there is an incredibly obvious necessity that mass screening must be both enforceable & scalable. Thus, it has to score based on easily obtainable, unambiguous characteristics.

    If you do not like voter registration.... Fair enough. What alternative do you offer?
    ___

    IMHO a rapid screen based on voter registration is enforceable and offers easy gains. For example:

    Statistically the most vile creatures on the planet (e.g. major network & newspaper reporters propagandists) are 95%+ likely to be registered DNC.

    -- Compare that to --

    The TEN most evil GOP House members, who have been called out. Seven lost their GOP primary or retired... Soon to be eight. (1)
     
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/10-Impeachment-Decepticons-Primary-Targets-seven-down.jpg
     

    The last two are in heavy blue districts and likely to fail in the general elections despite the Red Wave running the other direction.

    Based on objective primary election results -- The MAGA GOP voter base materially outperforms registered Nazi-crats. So, while imperfect, what I suggest is effective and practical for Phase I, Step I.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/08/08/seven-down/

  84. @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Say, going by IQ would be silly, as schizophrenics and libtards tend to perform well on IQ test, but both are clearly deranged.
     
    IQ and politics is an interesting study. I know someone who frankly is probably functionally illiterate, but who has a lot of the right instincts, when it comes to politics. And I think it is obvious that there are many opposite cases.

    Any constructive ideas?
     
    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness. Sounds like scifi, but I think it might be technically possible, if not now, at least in the future.

    Personally, I'd like to see something like Metaculus instituted on a political level, as well as quizzes on different subjects. (Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.) There should be better public feedback on the stupidity of those in power.

    As far as voting goes, I like the idea of weighted votes. At the very least, it might be a way to try to encourage certain socially desirable behaviors, like encouraging people to get married or stay married, or marry responsibly, or have children.

    I think that people on welfare shouldn't be allowed to vote. Probably public employees too.

    Of course, the difficulty is instituting any of those ideas.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN

    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness.

    As many examples show, someone might enter politics as an honest person and become hopelessly corrupted after that. There are many good American jokes about politicians, like these two:

    – How do you know that the politician is lying?
    – His lips are moving.

    An honest politician is one who once bought stays bought.

    Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.

    Thing is, 99% of the US residents would flunk this test.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AnonfromTN


    Thing is, 99% of the US residents would flunk this test.
     
    I think geography has a very limited use in a practical sense.

    Off the top of my head, the only time I have ever had to use it was when I was asked by an African, if I knew where his country (Ghana) was.

    Most pilots use autopilot. Nobody in the military or strategic planning would ever think of doing anything without looking at a map. Even people who have a good grasp of geography probably haven't memorized latitude and longitude, or the climatic conditions present in each area. 100% of people would be better off looking at a map.

    But anyway, I still think it would be a good way to combat the false, assumed wisdom of authority. Though many might do poorly, some might point to Iceland or Antarctica or the middle of the ocean, and I'd like people to see that.
  85. @AnonfromTN
    @songbird


    Ultimate idea, I think would be to somehow screen politicians for public loyalty and farsightedness.
     
    As many examples show, someone might enter politics as an honest person and become hopelessly corrupted after that. There are many good American jokes about politicians, like these two:

    - How do you know that the politician is lying?
    - His lips are moving.

    An honest politician is one who once bought stays bought.

    Making members of congress point out countries on an unlabeled map is one of my favorite ideas.
     
    Thing is, 99% of the US residents would flunk this test.

    Replies: @songbird

    Thing is, 99% of the US residents would flunk this test.

    I think geography has a very limited use in a practical sense.

    Off the top of my head, the only time I have ever had to use it was when I was asked by an African, if I knew where his country (Ghana) was.

    Most pilots use autopilot. Nobody in the military or strategic planning would ever think of doing anything without looking at a map. Even people who have a good grasp of geography probably haven’t memorized latitude and longitude, or the climatic conditions present in each area. 100% of people would be better off looking at a map.

    But anyway, I still think it would be a good way to combat the false, assumed wisdom of authority. Though many might do poorly, some might point to Iceland or Antarctica or the middle of the ocean, and I’d like people to see that.

  86. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Gerard1234


    I can'[t be bothered looking up what the word “cucking” means
     
    It is a slang word from American partisan social media. Like 99.9999% of all American partisan social media it is used only by retards or people who just do not know any better.

    Since DNA testing was invented cuckoldry is about as relevant to anybody's real life as dueling. Do they still have duels where you live?

    Replies: @songbird

    It is a slang word from American partisan social media. Like 99.9999% of all American partisan social media it is used only by retards or people who just do not know any better.

    There’s an unfortunate intersection with porn, which makes the word appear low status to many. Be that as it may, I have never heard anyone who crinkles their nose at it suggest a more effective term.

    Strong consonants and low syllable counts are a must, for a word to have power, unless you have the power to make the other side use your word, and in that case the more syllables the better. (but the power is not there.) Ultimately, the word is meant for a limited, masculine, contrarian sphere, and it is arguably very effective within that sphere.

    I might add that encouraging conceptualization of parasitism is a political must for anyone opposed to parasitism and decline.

    Since DNA testing was invented cuckoldry is about as relevant to anybody’s real life as dueling.

    That’s not really how the new slang is used.

    [MORE]

    It is about deferring to interests outside your group genetic interests. This can involve homosexuals of the same group as they often pursue anti-social interests. (and is extremely relevant today – more relevant than ever.)

    The word “cuck” ultimately derives from the word “cuckoo”, so its origin is not really base, but evokes observation of nature, or evolutionary biology. The cuckoo lays its eggs in the nests of other species of birds. The eggs hatch early. The alien hatchling often kills the biological ones. Meanwhile, the mother is often so overcome by instinct, that she keeps feeding the alien bird, even as it obtains monstrous size:

    Cuckoos are most often obligate brood parasites, meaning that they cannot raise their own eggs, but must lay them in the nests of other species. And there are many other brood parasites beyond cuckoos. The effects can and have been devastating on different species, particularly where invasive species are concerned. Some have evolved defenses, including colored eggs, specially-shaped nests, or the tendency to abandon the nest and start over.

  87. @AnonfromTN
    @A123


    GOP — Full citizen
     
    I recently saw an excellent comment: “I like it when Republicans in Congress open their mouths to remind us that Democrats are not the only morons there”.

    Replies: @A123

    I do not think you were intentionally strawmanning, but it helps if you avoid reductions that could be easily construed as cherry picking.

    You should have gone with something like this:

    An enforceable solution for adults could be based on voter registration:

    One admits this is less than fair, however an essential characteristic for successful de-Nazification is effectiveness. Most of America’s dross would be swept away in one step.

    I recently saw an excellent comment: “I like it when Republicans in Congress open their mouths to remind us that Democrats are not the only morons there”.

    There are certainly awful elected Republicans. Liz Cheney and Mitch McConnell spring immediately to mind.

    However, there is an incredibly obvious necessity that mass screening must be both enforceable & scalable. Thus, it has to score based on easily obtainable, unambiguous characteristics.

    If you do not like voter registration…. Fair enough. What alternative do you offer?
    ___

    IMHO a rapid screen based on voter registration is enforceable and offers easy gains. For example:

    Statistically the most vile creatures on the planet (e.g. major network & newspaper reporters propagandists) are 95%+ likely to be registered DNC.

    — Compare that to —

    The TEN most evil GOP House members, who have been called out. Seven lost their GOP primary or retired… Soon to be eight. (1)
      

    The last two are in heavy blue districts and likely to fail in the general elections despite the Red Wave running the other direction.

    Based on objective primary election results — The MAGA GOP voter base materially outperforms registered Nazi-crats. So, while imperfect, what I suggest is effective and practical for Phase I, Step I.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/08/08/seven-down/

  88. @songbird
    @Beckow


    Pope and the main Christian figures are repeating the same liberal gender wokeness.
     
    Women still can't be priests in the Catholic church, and they are saying that they will never be priests and seem to be sticking to their guns on it. Where they seem to be severely cucking is on homosexuality, migration and race.

    Christianity abandoned its key role to keep the West normal. Normal simply means that idiocy is ignored, marginalized and suppressed. But the churches are silent. Without the shift by the Church these idiocies wouldn’t be taken over. It was the Church’s primary role to challenge it – and they failed to do it.
     
    I'm not going to say that I think the Church (or any church) did a good job fighting poz because I don't think that they did. Frankly, I can't think of any mainstream group, religious or not, that did a good job opposing it. Possibly, part of that relates to lack of vision, and people's inability to understand how far the US or West was able to descend. (probably, still operating, even though we have already descended pretty far)

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues. Perhaps, starting with the fact that you can't excommunicate a corporation and going through many others that I believe E. Michael Jones talks about.

    They weren't completely inactive. I recall my hometown church trying to campaign against some awful female judge from South Africa, who ended up voting to legalize gay marriage in the state, which was part of the early push in America and the world to legalize gay marriage.

    The seminaries and nunneries are empty now - they are suffering from a demographic contraction, just like general society. I don't think much can be expected of them now. (And that is probably a big part of the reason that so many other churches are thoroughly pozzed.)

    Replies: @Beckow, @Gerard1234, @Coconuts

    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues.

    I think this is true, looking back at the post-war decades and the 2nd Vatican council reforms in the 60s, there was a lot of optimism about liberal democracy and progress in secular society, leaving the old ‘Church of Order’ behind. Esp. in Europe reality has not lived up to expectations. That would probably be a mild judgement in the light of the recent acceleration of things.

    Outside of Europe they are still doing okay though with these changes, this may be part of what is causing problems now for European or US Catholics. The Pope doesn’t seem to have a high level of interest in their issues and has even taken extra steps to restrict/suppress traditionalist Catholic (the old Latin Mass adherents) growth. This is nearly all in the US and Europe where it was a growing movement. I think a lot of his comments may be more intended for audiences outside of Europe now, this is where the interest seems to be.

    There is another problem in that a lot of the older priests who were already in their late teens or 20s before the 1960s reforms have been retiring, now it is leaving the most liberal generations of priests in charge (from the 60s, 70s, 80s). Younger priests and monks can be more traditionalist but fewer in number. A better strategy might have been to give up on trying to remain a mass church and to concentrate on trying to retain a minority of the more committed, and to not have hidden a lot of the traditional stuff away in the 80s and 90s.

    You are right that it seems they weren’t ready for the impact that technology (the pill, liberation of women), the fall of Communism and advanced consumerism etc. would have.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Coconuts

    I wonder whether religious institutions may have been lulled about civil rights legislation because they were given carve-outs, which maybe, at the time, made it seem like it wasn't as aggressive a move as it really was. Like maybe, it would be turned-back, it things got out of hand.

    I'm not quite sure how the law works, but it almost seems to me as if a lot of religious, charitable organizations are deeply effected by civil rights law, today.

    I vaguely recall a case years ago, where the Salvation Army was sued because some manager told Mexican workers to speak English. It also seems to me as though Catholic Charities has a startling number of Jewish managers, and one might reach the conclusion that they may have helped form policy regarding settling migrants.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  89. AP says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    @AP

    When you have no arguments you start playing a fool; or maybe you are not playing.


    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.
     
    It doesn't matter – traffic goes to the consumer.

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.
     
    It doesn't matter – a porn addict doesn't use Google search. He uses bookmarks.

    On the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers; in your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.
     
    "Pornhub is the 10th most trafficked website in the world" – so this data is for overall consumption.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.
     
    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.
     
    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.

    That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography.
     
    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.

    Google search doesn't reflect the overall use.

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.
     
    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?

    There is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.
     
    Excellent logic!

    The Ukrainian prostitutes work abroad – therefore, there are not many prostitutes in Ukraine.


    That's a good one.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.
     
    "The countries of origin visible to the respondents" – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian.

    Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.
     
    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.
     
    You are a liar – not me.

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the [HIV] epidemic [in the RF].
     
    Many people, even within the government, are paid to make statements like this. A non-governmental organization, sponsored from the US, is not to be trusted.

    The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate.
     
    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak. You lied, when you told me that you were a medic, didn't you?

    Share of deaths from HIV/AIDS, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-deaths-aids?tab=chart&country=USA~RUS

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 1.98%, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 1.27%;

    The number of deaths from HIV/AIDS per 100,000 people.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/hiv-death-rates?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    The United States peaked in 1994 with 14.95, the Russian Federation in 2016 with 14.14;

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    Russia passed the peak in 2015, and in 2019 had 15% less of new cases. And this is not the data of the Ministry of Healthcare of the Russian Federation. The real number is half of that.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.

    The Russian drug addicts prefer heroin, and the American ones smoke methamphetamine, and masturbate, watching porn – the degenerate entertainment for a degenerate people.

    So you can point to some rare serial killers but Russia has a higher homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV, and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.
     
    You are a liar.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that's a lot.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there's 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.

    There are 20 times more serial killers, per capita, in the United States.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.

    https://i.postimg.cc/hv81FsRy/Gun-related-suicides-and-homicides-in-the-United-States.png

    And it's growing.

    And there's one serial killer per every 100 thousand of the American people, and one per 2 million of the Russian people.

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies – or to be such people.
     
    One American becomes a victim of a serial killer every three days.

    https://i.postimg.cc/43DzbRsc/Serial-Killer-Victims-per-Year-in-the-US.png

    And a Russian person is a lot less likely to know a Ukrainian prostitute, than an Uzbekistani taxi driver.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.
     
    And it shouldn't be mentioned.

    An abortion is a termination of an unwanted pregnancy; who said it should be considered anything degenerate – the Pope?

    Tell him that the Russians are civilized people.
    https://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/GarbhaUpanishad.pdf

    And that according to the Vedas, a spirit enters the fetus at the end of the 7th month. So, an abortion is not a murder.

    Tell him to read Garbha Upanishad, page 3 – in the seventh month, the fetus comes to have the soul, and in the eighth month, it becomes complete. During the ninth month, all outer signs attain completeness.

    And what's wrong with divorce?

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.

    But more importantly, none of that is even relevant, because you are simply lying.

    Number of marriages in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/marriage-rate-per-1000-inhabitants?country=USA~RUS

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;

    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.

    These numbers change with economic situation and have nothing to do with "degeneracy" or anything related to decency.

    Some people create a family because they can't make it on their own, and some others don't create a family because they can't afford it. Some get divorced when they can be independent, and others get divorced when they can not maintain.

    But most people do want to have a family. Most people do want to have children. And in America, 40 percent of the children are born outside of marriage.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

    Now, this is degeneracy.

    Replies: @AP

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    It doesn’t matter – traffic goes to the consumer.

    Sure, and according to google searches the countries with the most people looking for porn are Muslim countries.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.

    It doesn’t matter – a porn addict doesn’t use Google search. He uses bookmarks.

    Proof of that?

    And are you as much of an expert on porn addiction as you are on drug abuse?

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.

    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!

    Out of 330 million people.

    And every day 102 people in the USA die in car crashes.

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.

    They search for porn more than do Americans.

    “That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography.”

    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.

    They don’t access pornography through google or chrome?

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.

    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?

    From a journalist-consumer. This was written before this war, who knew Severodonetsk would feature on world news:

    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7573

    “Lola, my whore, came from Severodonetsk, a toxic dump in the Lugansk oblast, the Russified east of Ukraine.I rented her late on Sunday, November 28th — the same day that the Ukrainian governors of several pro-Yanukovich regions were holding a congress in Severodonetsk, threatening to create a breakaway southeastern Ukrainian republic if the “orange” revolution in Kiev succeeded. It was one of those coincidences that writers invent to give a sordid story some relevance — but invention in this case isn’t necessary. We’re talking about whores here, folks. Any john in Moscow knows that Yanukovich country, the pro-Russian southeast of Ukraine, is the snapper-basket of Europe, the white world’s most fertile breeding ground for whores, the Golden Triangle of prostitution production.”

    :::::::::::::::

    And it can be inferred from HIV rates.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.

    “The countries of origin visible to the respondents” – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian. Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?

    No, Ukrainians are counted separately. And after the Orange Revolution Ukraine was not unknown.

    Russians second place, after Romanians.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12142-010-0188-1

    More about Russian prostitution:

    “Russia has become one of the largest exporters of women for the sex industry ”

    Soviet morality:

    The life of elite prostitutes was portrayed as carefree and prosperous in television and later in a hit movie “Interdevochka.” This mythology of prostitution in the media infiltrated the culture. According to two public opinion polls conducted among high school girls at the end of 1989, prostitution made the top ten of the most prestigious and desirable professions

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!

    According to that source. United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems gives a Russian rate of 7.3 and American rate of 6.3:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Definition

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.

    You are a liar – not me

    I provided numbers from United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems. That is not a lie. To claim that it is, is – a lie.

    “The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate.”

    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.

    That is the low estimate from one government department in Russia. You ignored this so I’ll rpeat it:

    Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that’s independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky’s team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak.

    And someone who was honest would understand that 30 years ago treatment was less effective and less accessible than it is now. Otherwise America’s peaks would be much lower.

    Here is the most relevant number:

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    Even though Russia has less than half the population of the USA, it has nearly twice as many new cases of HIV.

    So Russia has nearly a 4x higher rate of new HIV infections.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.

    And in the USA it’s about 7% through IV drug use.

    So remove the drug users and Russia still has about a 2x higher rate of HIV infections.

    But don’t pretend that drug abusers aren’t degenerate, just because you are one of them.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that’s a lot.

    Out of 330 million it is not much. And according to the United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there’s 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.

    According to your own source, Russia’s numbers can’t be counted:

    “Some people theorize that the United States has better record-keeping than some other countries and law enforcement agencies are better at linking murders together. This does hold true for countries like Russia or China in fact, they often do not report them at all unless word somehow gets out to the western press. ”

    So we don’t know what the real number of serial killers is in Russia. Given that the overall homicide rate is higher until recently, there is no reason to assume as you do that the number is lower.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.

    According to Statista. But not according to the UN.

    Actually most sources give a Russian homicide rate of 7.3:

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/murder-homicide-rate

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.

    Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true.

    Remember, you wrote:

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.

    I responded: You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    “Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million”

    That’s the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.

    And it shouldn’t be mentioned.

    For a degenerate – it shouldn’t be.

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.

    South Africa has a high HIV rate. The other countries have their own problems but they are less degenerate than the USA, which in turn is less degenerate than Russia.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.

    Perhaps you are too stupid to consider more than one variable at once. They have low rates of HIV, murder, abortion, etc.

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;
    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.

    Okay, this point is valid. Russia is only slightly worse than the USA. But, still worse.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

    No Russia on that chart.

    American rate is boosted by Blacks – their rate is 69%.

    Among Euro-Americans it is 28%:

    https://www.ceousa.org/2020/02/26/percentage-of-births-to-unmarried-women/

    In Russia it’s slightly worse, 29.4%:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/single-mothers-left-in-charge-of-1-in-3-russian-households-dkmqbctdz

    So, in terms of HIV – Russia a lot worse than USA.
    Murder – Russia worse according to most sources, including UN.
    Abortion – Russia a lot worse
    Divorce – Russia slightly worse
    Kids to unmarried women – Russia slightly worse than the USA’s Europeans, but better overall due to Blacks

    • Replies: @A123
    @AP

    AP & HereDragon,

    I realize that both you embrace "long form".

    However, 1,800 words with out a [MORE] tag?

    Neither of you has to like the other commenters here, but a little more consideration for thread stability would be appreciated.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Wielgus
    @AP

    Dan Davies wrote a biography entitled In Plain Sight of the British TV presenter and as it later emerged, serial pedophile Jimmy Savile. Savile died in 2011. The book was published in 2014. According to Davies, who interviewed Savile a number of times, in his last interview Savile expressed the desire for an 18-year-old Ukrainian woman. A little later, perhaps a little forgetful but also suggesting he had an idee fixe about it, he repeated the wish but this time the age mentioned was 16. It was Ukrainian he mentioned, not Russian. It is likely Savile was thinking in terms of even younger ages but he obviously regarded Ukraine as a source of young female flesh.

  90. @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – the part four.

    More 15 year old circular logic [Communism was following the footsteps of the Catholic Church]. Even though the Communists were militant atheists, they did something you didn’t like so they were like some kind of Christians.
     
    You don't even understand my logic.

    And your misunderstanding of my logic is a reflection of yours; and it is you, and not me, who is primitive and infantile.

    Communism was a religion!

    The same as Christianity. A make-believe ideology, that defies common sense and requires faith. Materialism is a religion, and atheism is a religion – why is this so difficult to understand?

    They said, that there will be Paradise on earth. They said, that there was nothing but matter. This requires faith. Therefore, it is a religion.

    They had their own Patriarch collection, or call them the New Church Fathers. They had a Messiah, and his apostles. They even had a Pope – Stalin, and he had his cardinals, and his bishops; the entire structure of the Communist party followed the Vatican template.

    They used the same method to establish their dominance. Persecuted and slaughtered heretics, until they disappeared.

    They lied, and replaced the traditional institutions with their own. They controlled marriage and birth, law and death, with their own rules.

    And they did use the same iconography, to promote and propagate their new faith. They even built a Persian ziggurat for their Messiah, which is not surprisingly looked very much alike to the one of the Biblical hero Cyrus the Great.

    https://i.postimg.cc/xdCfMtGN/Ziggurat-of-Cyrus-the-Great.jpg

    "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven, given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah." – The Book of Ezra, 1:2.

    Did you think they were stupid?

    https://i.postimg.cc/LXS3XgFX/Lenin-s-Mausoleum.jpg

    They even established a tradition of pilgrimage.


    This is a religion, with its own symbols and creed. The star, the hammer and sickle – it's the same as the Freemasonry, on the inside, and as Christianity on the outside.

    Your picture of Mao looks more like Buddha than like Christ.
     
    Well, your picture of the Buddha is a hippie fake, which is painted ore like a Christian icon. The real Buddhist iconography looks very different from that.

    This particular poster of Mao is an imitation of a popular Christian composition, like The Ascension of our Lord.

    https://i.postimg.cc/pLJF1k6L/The-Ascension-of-our-Lord-Jesus-Christ.jpg

    A figure of Christ as the Sun with a crowd of devotees below.

    https://i.postimg.cc/tTtwsKSH/Communist-Propaganda-Poster.jpg

    The composition is the same, the manner of execution is a bit different. The similarities are obvious – it's impossible to not see.

    And here is another example, a star above the head.

    https://i.postimg.cc/Y9YGY3Y7/Christian-icon-1.jpg

    Though not the most similar of what there is; and there are others of the same composition, more like the one below.

    https://i.postimg.cc/jqfmnJ1h/Stalin.jpg

    Communism was a religion.

    A fake religion, like that of the Catholic Church – with two faces, one for the people and one for the shepherds.

    Replies: @nickels

    Communism was a perversion of the Christian religion.
    No Christianity of non protestant ilk ever said earth would be a paradise- only suffering. The paradise is in the world to come.

  91. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    It doesn’t matter – traffic goes to the consumer.
     
    Sure, and according to google searches the countries with the most people looking for porn are Muslim countries.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.

    It doesn’t matter – a porn addict doesn’t use Google search. He uses bookmarks.
     
    Proof of that?

    And are you as much of an expert on porn addiction as you are on drug abuse?

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.

    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!
     
    Out of 330 million people.

    And every day 102 people in the USA die in car crashes.

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.
     
    They search for porn more than do Americans.

    "That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography."

    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.
     
    They don't access pornography through google or chrome?

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.

    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?
     
    From a journalist-consumer. This was written before this war, who knew Severodonetsk would feature on world news:

    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7573

    “Lola, my whore, came from Severodonetsk, a toxic dump in the Lugansk oblast, the Russified east of Ukraine.I rented her late on Sunday, November 28th — the same day that the Ukrainian governors of several pro-Yanukovich regions were holding a congress in Severodonetsk, threatening to create a breakaway southeastern Ukrainian republic if the “orange” revolution in Kiev succeeded. It was one of those coincidences that writers invent to give a sordid story some relevance — but invention in this case isn’t necessary. We’re talking about whores here, folks. Any john in Moscow knows that Yanukovich country, the pro-Russian southeast of Ukraine, is the snapper-basket of Europe, the white world’s most fertile breeding ground for whores, the Golden Triangle of prostitution production.”

    :::::::::::::::

    And it can be inferred from HIV rates.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.

    “The countries of origin visible to the respondents” – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian. Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?
     
    No, Ukrainians are counted separately. And after the Orange Revolution Ukraine was not unknown.

    Russians second place, after Romanians.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12142-010-0188-1

    More about Russian prostitution:

    "Russia has become one of the largest exporters of women for the sex industry "

    Soviet morality:

    The life of elite prostitutes was portrayed as carefree and prosperous in television and later in a hit movie “Interdevochka.” This mythology of prostitution in the media infiltrated the culture. According to two public opinion polls conducted among high school girls at the end of 1989, prostitution made the top ten of the most prestigious and desirable professions

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!
     
    According to that source. United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems gives a Russian rate of 7.3 and American rate of 6.3:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Definition

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.

    You are a liar – not me
     
    I provided numbers from United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems. That is not a lie. To claim that it is, is - a lie.

    "The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate."

    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.
     
    That is the low estimate from one government department in Russia. You ignored this so I'll rpeat it:

    Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that’s independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky’s team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak.
     
    And someone who was honest would understand that 30 years ago treatment was less effective and less accessible than it is now. Otherwise America's peaks would be much lower.

    Here is the most relevant number:

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    https://i.imgur.com/sCcfes3.png

    Even though Russia has less than half the population of the USA, it has nearly twice as many new cases of HIV.

    So Russia has nearly a 4x higher rate of new HIV infections.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.
     
    And in the USA it's about 7% through IV drug use.

    So remove the drug users and Russia still has about a 2x higher rate of HIV infections.

    But don't pretend that drug abusers aren't degenerate, just because you are one of them.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that’s a lot.
     
    Out of 330 million it is not much. And according to the United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there’s 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.
     
    According to your own source, Russia's numbers can't be counted:

    "Some people theorize that the United States has better record-keeping than some other countries and law enforcement agencies are better at linking murders together. This does hold true for countries like Russia or China in fact, they often do not report them at all unless word somehow gets out to the western press. "

    So we don't know what the real number of serial killers is in Russia. Given that the overall homicide rate is higher until recently, there is no reason to assume as you do that the number is lower.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.
     
    According to Statista. But not according to the UN.

    Actually most sources give a Russian homicide rate of 7.3:

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/murder-homicide-rate

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.
     
    Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

    Remember, you wrote:

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.

     

    I responded: You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    “Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million”

    That’s the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.

    And it shouldn’t be mentioned.
     
    For a degenerate - it shouldn't be.

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.
     
    South Africa has a high HIV rate. The other countries have their own problems but they are less degenerate than the USA, which in turn is less degenerate than Russia.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.
     
    Perhaps you are too stupid to consider more than one variable at once. They have low rates of HIV, murder, abortion, etc.

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;
    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.
     

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.
     
    Okay, this point is valid. Russia is only slightly worse than the USA. But, still worse.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

     

    No Russia on that chart.

    American rate is boosted by Blacks - their rate is 69%.

    Among Euro-Americans it is 28%:

    https://www.ceousa.org/2020/02/26/percentage-of-births-to-unmarried-women/

    In Russia it's slightly worse, 29.4%:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/single-mothers-left-in-charge-of-1-in-3-russian-households-dkmqbctdz

    So, in terms of HIV - Russia a lot worse than USA.
    Murder - Russia worse according to most sources, including UN.
    Abortion - Russia a lot worse
    Divorce - Russia slightly worse
    Kids to unmarried women - Russia slightly worse than the USA's Europeans, but better overall due to Blacks

    Replies: @A123, @Wielgus

    AP & HereDragon,

    I realize that both you embrace “long form”.

    However, 1,800 words with out a [MORE] tag?

    Neither of you has to like the other commenters here, but a little more consideration for thread stability would be appreciated.

    PEACE 😇

  92. @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – from the older page.

    You are losing the argument, and as you often do, resort to ad hominem attacks, and citing of the most dubious sources as evidence.

    And the more we talk, the more idiotic your argumentation is.

    Like this,

    The physicist who formulated the Big Bang Theory concerning the origin of the physical universe was a Roman Catholic priest.
     
    Of course, he must have been a priest. Who else could have produced such a drivel? The Big Bang Theory is a pseudo-scientific re-iteration of the Biblical creation myth, that defies logic and common sense.

    One has to be biased to consider it science.

    The childish pride necessary to assume that [there is nothing in the world beyond our senses and intellect], and to dismiss the notion of anything beyond the ape senses, is incredible.
     
    That's not how you said it. You said it was childish to assume that one can understand the world with his senses and intellect.

    Once again – there's no other way to understand anything.

    And the same as we can use various material tools to expand the range of our natural perception, so we can use various intellectual tools to expand the range of our natural abilities.

    The same as we can use a microscope or a telescope, so we can see further and deeper, so we can use meditation, LSD, mescaline, and other chemical compounds that expand the range of our natural perception.

    The same as we need to use material tools in order to see the material world, that's beyond our senses, so we need to use intellectual tools in order to see the spiritual world, that's beyond our natural mental senses.

    This is incredible, that having read so much about it in my earlier comments, you still haven't understood anything.

    Once again – the entire practice of the Buddhist and Hindu religion is directed at overcoming the limitation of these "ape senses" and achieving the higher states of consciousness.

    These higher states are natural abilities of our mind.

    The problem is that you are not looking for understanding. You are looking for anything that may support your delusional belief, the notion of the imaginary universe that you were taught about, and not the reality.

    This is why you so easily dismiss anything coming from anybody if it doesn't support what you decided to believe in.

    You can read what people like Dr Albert Hofmann, the creator of LSD, said in his book, LSD – My Problem Child, what he thought about it. You can read what a prominent scientist and a Harvard professor Timothy Leary thought about it.

    You can read the Doors of Perception and hear what Aldous Huxley thought about it.

    And if you were a rational man you would think, that these people were probably smarter than you, and if they independently of each other formed the same opinion about it, than maybe there's more to it than you can imagine.

    Unfortunately, you are not a rational man, and you will rather believe in fables than challenge that belief, looking for the truth. You do not need the truth, are not interested in it.

    You need comfort.

    And you will rather stay in this comfortable world of ape senses than even consider for a minute that there may be the way out of it. You will rather believe in the idiotic Big Bang than think for a minute about eternity.

    Like any Christian you negate anything that isn't a part of your creed – the same as any other cult member does.

    Talking to you is a waste of time.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @AP

    “The childish pride necessary to assume that [there is nothing in the world beyond our senses and intellect], and to dismiss the notion of anything beyond the ape senses, is incredible.”

    That’s not how you said it. You said it was childish to assume that one can understand the world with his senses and intellect.

    My actual words:

    “Childishness is the naive and myopic belief that the world one exists insofar as it can be understood by the senses and intellect and that nothing exists beyond that. ” [one should have been only]

    You can’t help yourself but to misrepresent things.

    “And the same as we can use various material tools to expand the range of our natural perception, so we can use various intellectual tools to expand the range of our natural abilities.”

    The same as we can use a microscope or a telescope, so we can see further and deeper, so we can use meditation, LSD, mescaline, and other chemical compounds that expand the range of our natural perception.

    LSD doesn’t enhance, but twists or obscures. Do you think that a psychotic person is somehow “enhanced?” Do you think that viewing a sunset through a kaleidoscope is enhancing the view, rather than distorting it? It may certainly look interesting, and quite different from what you are used to. You confuse novelty with enhancement.

    This is incredible, that having read so much about it in my earlier comments, you still haven’t understood anything.

    I understand quite well that you find meaning in distorting your perceptions.

    Once again – the entire practice of the Buddhist and Hindu religion is directed at overcoming the limitation of these “ape senses” and achieving the higher states of consciousness

    I suspect that the Buddhists condemn use of drugs for the reason that processes of drug abuse and Buddhist meditation are not the same and that the former is a cheap and false imitation of the latter.

    You can read what people like Dr Albert Hofmann, the creator of LSD, said in his book, LSD – My Problem Child, what he thought about it. You can read what a prominent scientist and a Harvard professor Timothy Leary thought about it.

    You can read the Doors of Perception and hear what Aldous Huxley thought about it.

    And if you were a rational man you would think, that these people were probably smarter than you,

    Timothy Leary was indeed smarter than I am, but he was also an evil, egotistic psychopath:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/26/acid-redux

    As such, he was a perfect guru for the self-absorbed, shallow and selfish pseudo-religious Boomers that were his followers.

    The other two were probably just seduced by something new and very interesting.

  93. @German_reader
    @Here Be Dragon


    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.
     
    What's your source for that? It's true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed (though curiously enough letters and other works by Julian were preserved by Byzantine scribes, making him one of the best-known ancient personalities), and Justinian did close down the Academy...but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts (as opposed to neglect, failure to copy them again and re-purposing of the papyrus/parchment they were written on)? Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization...which didn't preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all (instead just used them as a quarry to extract some useful knowledge, then discarded them) and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
    I'm not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which just make you look silly.

    There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.
     
    iirc there's not much evidence his tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren't intended to be.
    Seneca (pretty boring writer from what I've seen of him) was a favorite of the Christians btw, they even invented an epistolary exchange between him and St Paul.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon

    What’s your source for that? It’s true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed; but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts?

    My knowledge of it comes from reading an assortment of various sources a long time ago, none of which in particular comes to my mind now. But it isn’t hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.

    First of all, these anti-Christian writings weren’t propaganda brochures. Porphyry’s Against the Christians consisted of fifteen books. That was a meticulous and elaborate treatise, and yet no copies of this book exist. Not even one, not even a piece of it.

    We know about it from the citations and references to it in the treatises of the Christian apologetics. Porphyry was criticizing the writings of Christian philosophers and theologians. He apparently won that debate.

    “Some thirty Christian apologists, such as Methodius, Eusebius, Apollinaris, Augustine, Jerome, etc., responded to his challenge.” And nevertheless, the Emperor ordered every copy of it to be burned. Maybe, if it had not been burned, Christianity would have lost.

    Maybe, it would not have lasted for a thousand years then.

    And that was not the only treatise of Porphyry that was lost. The same as many other works of the followers of Plato and Plotinus, for what they taught was incompatible with the Bible – but was in accord with the Hindu and the Buddhist thought.

    Perhaps you haven’t read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well. That book is the entire compendium of the Greek astronomy and mathematics, in thirteen volumes. The magnum opus of his life.

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later. So tell me, how could that have happened, if the pious monks were so diligently copying these books in scriptoriums.

    How could such a book disappear without trace for a thousand years?

    Or the work of Democritus, who wrote at least 50 treatises on various topics, and none of which survived in completeness – because he was talking about atoms and void; that between atoms, there lies empty space. That’s in essence a Hindu or a Buddhist thought.

    The Neoplatonic school, and its doctrine of reincarnation, was what they hated the most. There’s no doubt that they were influenced, because so any similarities with the Buddhist and Hindu theories can’t be a coincidence.

    Eventually the last of them had to leave Europe.

    One of the last was a woman, Hypatia. And a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    She was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia

    Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization, which didn’t preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.

    First of all, what makes you say that they didn’t preserve any of the texts in their original form?

    For example, the aforementioned here Almagest was translated to Arabic from Greek and appeared in Europe in translation, but in the 16th century the Greek original resurfaced as well. For what a strange reason might they have not preserved the original text?

    Of course, they did.

    And how can you say that they had no interest in the ancient literature, when there are so many great Persian and Hindu stories translated into Arabic, and a lot of others, written originally in Arabic – like One Thousand and One Nights, and when there are so many traditions of Arabic poetry?

    And the earliest known science fiction novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature

    Regarding historiography, who do you think wrote it for them – Christians?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_historians

    Speaking of which, here is an example of their, Christians, interest in historiography.

    “We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction.” – Diego de Landa, a Spanish Franciscan bishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Yucatán.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

    “Landa claimed that he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice and other idolatrous practices while rooting out native idolatry. Although one of the alleged victims of said sacrifices, Mani Encomendero Dasbatés, was later found to be alive.”

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times.” – Michael D. Coe, an American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

    “Ninety-nine percent of what we today know of the Mayas, we know as the result either of what Landa has told us in the pages that follow, or have learned in the use of what he told.” – William Gates, the renowned scholar, translator, and editor.

    Pope Urban II called the Muslims a vile race, that woshiped the devil, before the first Crusade. Had he managed to exterminate them, we would have never heard about One Thousand and One Nights, Al-Biruni, and Omar Khayyam.

    And though the Qur’an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

    And though they conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.

    And they were arguably the first in the western part of the earth to open universities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Education

    So yes, my view of their civilization is rather positive than negative, and if it was up to me to choose between the two religions for Europe, it might have been them.

    They created a great tradition of architecture and music, literature, science, poetry, and had a better relationship between various peoples within their world, did not commit the atrocities that the Christians did, and had been very successful – until the Europeans gave them a bit of the Christian love.

    And to be fair, they were not, and even less so are now, perfect; not even close – but who is?

    My favorite tradition is Yoga and Vedanta. One of these, or both, would be my religion of choice; if not one of these then Tibetan Buddhism.

    And even they are not perfect.

    I’m not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which make you look silly.

    Forgive me if my rhetorical abilities are not sophisticated enough for you, but to be honest simple speech appeals to me more, so consider me whatever you want. However, you haven’t yet presented even one reasonable argument in defence of your criticism of mine.

    Not to mention that you lean to do it in a very rude manner.

    You haven’t yet as well written anything that, in my humble opinion, was even remotely interesting or to a degree, forgive me, intelligent.

    You are calling me silly while saying something as ridiculous, as this paragraph of yours below.

    There’s not much evidence his [Seneca] tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren’t intended to be.

    And you are calling me cartoonish?

    Yes, son – we cannot even prove he at all existed. They did not have the internet back then.

    Hello.

    [MORE]

    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.

    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Here Be Dragon


    But it isn’t hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.
     
    bs reply, give me some specifics (beyond what I mentioned myself in my previous comment).

    Perhaps you haven’t read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well.

     

    I admit I'm unfamiliar with the Almagest...had to look it up on Wikipedia. And if the article there is accurate (which of course it might not be), the Greek original became known in the Latin West in the 15th century and supplanted earlier translations from Arabic versions. But if the Greek original has survived, that means it was copied by the Byzantines...directly refuting your point that it was intentionally destroyed by Christians.

    Of course, they did.
     
    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators...everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn't been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.

    And though the Qur’an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.
     
    Lol. The Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries at the latest, whereas Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity and created the modern world.
    I'm not even pro-Christian on the whole, in late antiquity my sympathies are more with the pagans, and I do believe there is something to the right-wing critique that Christianity is the root of many pernicious egalitarian ideas that are destroying Western countries (no "every human created in the image of God" for me). But you're just recycling a lot of half-truths and outright myths.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @Dmitry, @Here Be Dragon

    , @AP
    @Here Be Dragon

    I cannot do better than German Reader's comment but will make some obvious points he didn't bother to make:


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.
    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

     

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called "researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco", another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    About Darkening Age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Actual scholars mostly ridicule it.

    Only some impressed by such nonsensical works would make outrageously ignorant claims such as:

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later
     
    It was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Medieval_Europe

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[84] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[85]

    Bede was lucid about Earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar Anania Shirakatsi described the world as "being like an egg with a spherical yolk (the globe) surrounded by a layer of white (the atmosphere) and covered with a hard shell (the sky

    During the High Middle Ages, the astronomical knowledge in Christian Europe was extended beyond what was transmitted directly from ancient authors by transmission of learning from Medieval Islamic astronomy. An early student of such learning was Gerbert d'Aurillac, the later Pope Sylvester II.

    Saint Hildegard (Hildegard von Bingen, 1098–1179), depicted the spherical Earth several times in her work Liber Divinorum Operum.[88]

    Johannes de Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256 AD) wrote a famous work on Astronomy called Tractatus de Sphaera, based on Ptolemy, which primarily considers the sphere of the sky. However, it contains clear proofs of Earth's sphericity in the first chapter.[89][90]

    Many scholastic commentators on Aristotle's On the Heavens and Sacrobosco's Treatise on the Sphere unanimously agreed that Earth is spherical or round.[91] Grant observes that no author who had studied at a medieval university thought that Earth was flat.[92]

    The Elucidarium of Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of lesser clergy, which was translated into Middle English, Old French, Middle High German, Old Russian, Middle Dutch, Old Norse, Icelandic, Spanish, and several Italian dialects, explicitly refers to a spherical Earth. Likewise, the fact that Bertold von Regensburg (mid-13th century) used the spherical Earth as an illustration in a sermon shows that he could assume this knowledge among his congregation. The sermon was preached in the vernacular German, and thus was not intended for a learned audience.

    Or the work of Democritus,
     
    "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned."

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia
     
    Author is a young woke New Yorker. From your link: "Soraya Field Fiorio is a writer and feminist historian based in New York City."

    While it is true that she was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A real appraisal of her:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/08/06/who-was-hypatia-of-alexandria-really/

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times."

    It's too bad we don't have those books for research purposes, but one can't blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.
     
    Christians were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    And though they [Muslims] conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.
     
    Muslims didn't encounter demon-worshipping Mesoamericans.

    This is what Sikhs have to say about Islamic behavior in India:

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

    With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. Nadir Shah made a mountain of the skulls of the Hindus he killed in Delhi alone. Babur raised towers of Hindu skulls at Khanua when he defeated Rana Sanga in 1527 and later he repeated the same horrors after capturing the fort of Chanderi. Akbar ordered a general massacre of 30,000 Rajputs after he captured Chithorgarh in 1568. The Bahamani Sultans had an annual agenda of killing a minimum of 100,000 Hindus every year.

    :::::::::::::::::::

    It's interesting that you chose not to settle not in a place such as India, or a Muslim country, or Thailand, or Israel (you are part Jewish) - but in Christendom.

    Replies: @songbird, @Here Be Dragon, @Here Be Dragon

  94. @Here Be Dragon
    To AP – the part three.

    Renaissance typically is said to have begun in the 15th century. Only a few scholar stretch it to the 14th. It began in Italy and came to England where Roger Bacon lived much later.
     
    Typically, there are less of intelligent than stupid people, in any field. So, typically it doesn't make a good argument – quality is more important.

    And what does it have to do with when Roger Bacon lived, if my point is that his book was banned?

    You are an ignorant 15 year old. Most monasteries were endowed with so called scriptoria as part of their libraries: those were rooms where ancient literature was transcribed.
     
    No. You are ignorant – not me.

    A lot, if not most of the ancient literature was burned. For example, the treatises on cosmology. Ptolemei's Almagest, the book that described that the Earth is a sphere, was rediscovered in the end of the 12th century, when it was translated from Arabic.

    A lot of the Greek philosophical treatises were burned. The Church kept what fitted them, and burned the rest.

    There were many more, than four Gospels as well – most were burned. The Gospel of Thomas was discovered in 1945, it had been buried for two thousand years. A part of the Gospel of Peter was recovered in 1886.

    These two are different from the other four.

    Far more Muslim and Hindu girls undergo child marriage than there are victims of perverse priests.
     
    Sure – they prefer little boys, not girls. A hundred thousand of little orphans have been molested and raped, in the churches. You defend and support a Satanic pedophile cult.

    As for the Hindu girls, the Hindu Law has fixed the legal age of marriage as 21 years for men and 18 years for women. So, if there are some child marriages, those people are not Hindu.

    You are not born a Hindu. You are a Hindu, when you live like a Hindu.

    But a child marriage used to be a regular thing in Christendom. Until the second half of the 19th century, the marriageable age in Christian countries was set as 12-13.

    And of course, a child marriage and a child molestation is not the same thing.

    These marriages are for the most part a formal engagement to be married, a betrothal. Not an actual marriage.

    https://i.postimg.cc/nzdhVtpC/A-child-marriage.jpg

    Do you really think these children are about to have sex? They haven't even reached the puberty age yet.

    Theater largely died a couple of centuries before Christianity took over.
     
    No, it didn't. There are amphitheaters everywhere – in Palestine, in Morocco. There were famous Roman authors, who wrote great tragedies. Such as Seneca.

    He was rediscovered during the Renaissance.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger

    There were even famous actresses and singers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassilla

    So prior to Christianity, Romans watched people killing each other, people getting killed by animals, or nonverbal pantomime shows.
     
    Prior to Christianity, Romans watched gladiator fights. And theater, with an orchestra, and singers, and musicians.

    And after Christianity had come, there was nothing else to watch but their masses, and public executions of so-called heretics.

    For a thousand years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_theatre

    "Due to a lack of surviving records and texts, low literacy in the general population, and the opposition of the clergy, there are few surviving sources from the Early and High Medieval periods. However, by the late period, performances began to become more secularized; larger number of records survive."

    For you, with sympathies towards Buddhism, hospitals are of course of little importance – it is more important to gaze at your navel than to help other people.
     
    The Hindu scriptures contain an big eight-volume book on medicine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

    The topics cover everything from diet to pregnancy, from mental health to surgery – including rhinoplasty, and kidney stone extractions. There are methods of treatment of ears, eyes, nose, and mouth.

    One of the treatises, Sushruta Samhita, even teaches cataract surgery.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita

    "Sushruta's treatise provides the first written record of a forehead flap rhinoplasty, a technique still used today to reconstruct a nose. The text mentions more than 15 methods to repair it."

    These treatises were written a thousand years before Christianity.

    And in Christendom they didn't know even the human anatomy – the Church banned it. For a thousand years they were using a book of Galen of Pergamum, based on dog anatomy. For a thousand years, the Church prohibited studying human anatomy whatsoever.

    Even dissecting a dead human body was strictly prohibited.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy#History

    "Between 1275 and 1326, the anatomists Mondino de Luzzi, Alessandro Achillini and Antonio Benivieni at Bologna carried out the first systematic human dissections since ancient times. Mondino's Anatomy of 1316 was the first textbook in the medieval rediscovery of human anatomy."

    So, what hospitals are you talking about? They did blood-letting to the patients, considering it might help.

    They were ignorant.

    [What does architecture, let alone warfare, has to do with the teaching of Christ?] It demonstrates that Christendom fostered scientific advancement.
     
    No, it doesn't.

    [Kepler’s mother was accused of witchcraft] And yet he was still a Christian, so strong was his faith.
     
    No, it wasn't.

    One could not abandon Christianity – that was an apostasy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Christianity

    A crime that led to the same penalty of death by fire, as heresy. Once baptized after the birth, a man was a property of the Church, forever.

    There was no way out.

    [We are talking about the Church in the context of the Western civilization] No, we are talking about Christianity promoting science and technology, not only the Roman Church specifically.
     
    The Arab Christians and the Greek Christians, who lived in the Muslim countries, did not have anything to do with Christendom.

    If there had been no Christians there, there would have been nothing to preserve and the Arabs would have had nothing.
     
    Nonsense.

    The Arabs captured libraries of Alexandria, and Palestine. They invented paper – or learned to make it from the Persians. From the first century after the conquest they established many translation centers, attracted scholars from throughout the world, and began collecting literature to which the Christians didn't even have any access.

    You overestimate the significance of the Greeks due to your complete ignorance in relation to the Hindu culture. Most of the mathematics were developed not in the ancient Greece – the Greeks didn't even have a concept of zero, and knew no digits.

    And the digits that we use now we call the Arab digits, but in fact these are the Hindu digits.

    The Arabs learned about medicine and math from the Hindus. The Greeks were great astronomers and philosophers, and were great at art, but it was the Hindu scriptures where most of the medicine was learned from.

    There were no serious mathematics before the Hindus.

    And unlike the Christians, the ancient Greeks were dealing very well with the Hindus. They were sharing knowledge and treated each other with big respect. There was Greco-Buddhism, and it might have become the religion of Europe.

    The Hindu philosophers developed the decimal place value notation and first began using it – introducing the foundation of the modern mathematics. You overestimate the Greeks and underestimate the Hindus.

    "The Hindu–Arabic numeral system reached Western Europe in the 11th century, via Al-Andalus, through Spanish Muslims, the Moors, together with knowledge of classical astronomy and instruments like the astrolabe; Gerbert of Aurillac is credited with reintroducing the lost teachings into Catholic Europe."

    The great European mathematician Fibonacci said:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0#Transmission_to_Europe

    "But all this even, and the algorism, as well as the art of Pythagoras, I considered as almost a mistake in respect to the method of the Hindus."

    And the Hindus were also a lot better at music.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaveda#Upanishads

    And this is how the Christians treated science.

    "The Serapeum library was vandalized and demolished in 391 AD under a decree issued by Coptic Christian Pope Theophilus of Alexandria, but it does not seem to have housed books at the time and was mainly used as a gathering place for Neoplatonist philosophers."

    To be fair, there were cases when the Muslim fanatics burned libraries as well. But those happened on a rare occasion, and whereas their policies were directed at preservation and accumulation of knowledge.

    For the Christians it was the other way round.

    The Renaissance began in large part because Greeks moved West.
     
    Therefore, you agree, that the Roman Church was the reason of the Dark Ages.

    "These émigrés brought to Western Europe the well-preserved remnants and accumulated knowledge of their own civilization, which had not survived the Middle Ages in the West."

    The knowledge of the greatest heritage, that the European people had, could not survive the Middle Ages in the West – this is how the Church promoted science.

    Hello.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    Johann Martin Honigberger noted an impressive nose reconstruction done in the mountains, after Ranjit Singh (BTW, used to know someone by that name) had the hands, ears, and nose of someone who displeased him cut off. He said that it was as good as any operation that was done in Europe at the time.

    But I am unfamiliar with cataract surgery in India in the 1800s. The Quaker adventurer Josiah Harlan often performed cataract surgery, when he traveled, and it seemed as though word got around, and people came from far and wide to have their sight restored by him, though the operation was very primitive.

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
    @songbird


    Martin Honigberger noted an impressive nose reconstruction done in the mountains, after Singh had the hands, ears, and nose of someone who displeased him cut off.
     
    He was not a Hindu but a Sikh. Lahore, where it happened, was the capital of the Sikh Empire.

    The Sikh people do not read the Vedas and do not know Sanskrit.

    But I am unfamiliar with cataract surgery in India in the 1800s.
     
    The Sushruta Samhita, where this operation is described, is dated 500 BCE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita

    The Quaker adventurer Josiah Harlan often performed cataract surgery, when he traveled, and it seemed as though word got around, and people came from far and wide to have their sight restored, though the operation was very primitive.
     
    Any operation on the eyes is very dangerous even if simple. Especially considering that no anesthesia could be used. Though the Hindu did use opium and cannabis, neither is effective against acute pain.

    Here is the description of the surgery in the Vedas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataract_surgery#Ancient_Greece_and_Rome

    Apparently, in ancient Greece it was known as well, and Galen of Pergamon performed a similar operation in the 2nd century CE, using a similar needle instrument. They must have learned it from the Hindus.

    However, even that was forgotten and lost after the burning of pagan literature.

    Not earlier than in the late 18th century was the art of cataract surgery re-discovered in Europe, though the Arab and Persian medics had been doing that from the 10th century or so.

    Replies: @AP, @songbird

  95. @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Anyway, I think it is possible to make the argument that the Church was caught flat-footed by a number of rapid socio-political changes that robbed it of power, before it even had a good strategy to combat the issues.
     
    I think this is true, looking back at the post-war decades and the 2nd Vatican council reforms in the 60s, there was a lot of optimism about liberal democracy and progress in secular society, leaving the old 'Church of Order' behind. Esp. in Europe reality has not lived up to expectations. That would probably be a mild judgement in the light of the recent acceleration of things.

    Outside of Europe they are still doing okay though with these changes, this may be part of what is causing problems now for European or US Catholics. The Pope doesn't seem to have a high level of interest in their issues and has even taken extra steps to restrict/suppress traditionalist Catholic (the old Latin Mass adherents) growth. This is nearly all in the US and Europe where it was a growing movement. I think a lot of his comments may be more intended for audiences outside of Europe now, this is where the interest seems to be.

    There is another problem in that a lot of the older priests who were already in their late teens or 20s before the 1960s reforms have been retiring, now it is leaving the most liberal generations of priests in charge (from the 60s, 70s, 80s). Younger priests and monks can be more traditionalist but fewer in number. A better strategy might have been to give up on trying to remain a mass church and to concentrate on trying to retain a minority of the more committed, and to not have hidden a lot of the traditional stuff away in the 80s and 90s.

    You are right that it seems they weren't ready for the impact that technology (the pill, liberation of women), the fall of Communism and advanced consumerism etc. would have.

    Replies: @songbird

    I wonder whether religious institutions may have been lulled about civil rights legislation because they were given carve-outs, which maybe, at the time, made it seem like it wasn’t as aggressive a move as it really was. Like maybe, it would be turned-back, it things got out of hand.

    I’m not quite sure how the law works, but it almost seems to me as if a lot of religious, charitable organizations are deeply effected by civil rights law, today.

    I vaguely recall a case years ago, where the Salvation Army was sued because some manager told Mexican workers to speak English. It also seems to me as though Catholic Charities has a startling number of Jewish managers, and one might reach the conclusion that they may have helped form policy regarding settling migrants.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird


    I wonder whether religious institutions may have been lulled about civil rights legislation because they were given carve-outs, which maybe, at the time, made it seem like it wasn’t as aggressive a move as it really was. Like maybe, it would be turned-back, it things got out of hand.

    I’m not quite sure how the law works, but it almost seems to me as if a lot of religious, charitable organizations are deeply effected by civil rights law, today.
     

    I would think so, I heard some discussion about this recently, maybe it was on Academic Agent's YT channel, where they said if people had known where things would end up even 20 years after some of this kind of legislation was passed, it would likely never have got through.

    I think its pretty certain it shapes institutions and organisations as well, the civil rights/equality legislation maybe has had a lot to do with the power of the Woke movement, and religious organisations are affected in a similar way to the others. Again, if this had been fully appreciated there would probably have been more concern about this legislation and how it fits with religious freedom.


    It also seems to me as though Catholic Charities has a startling number of Jewish managers...
     
    This is surprising but somehow not surprising at the same time.
  96. German_reader says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    @German_reader


    What’s your source for that? It’s true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed; but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts?
     
    My knowledge of it comes from reading an assortment of various sources a long time ago, none of which in particular comes to my mind now. But it isn't hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.

    First of all, these anti-Christian writings weren't propaganda brochures. Porphyry's Against the Christians consisted of fifteen books. That was a meticulous and elaborate treatise, and yet no copies of this book exist. Not even one, not even a piece of it.

    We know about it from the citations and references to it in the treatises of the Christian apologetics. Porphyry was criticizing the writings of Christian philosophers and theologians. He apparently won that debate.

    "Some thirty Christian apologists, such as Methodius, Eusebius, Apollinaris, Augustine, Jerome, etc., responded to his challenge." And nevertheless, the Emperor ordered every copy of it to be burned. Maybe, if it had not been burned, Christianity would have lost.

    Maybe, it would not have lasted for a thousand years then.

    And that was not the only treatise of Porphyry that was lost. The same as many other works of the followers of Plato and Plotinus, for what they taught was incompatible with the Bible – but was in accord with the Hindu and the Buddhist thought.

    Perhaps you haven't read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well. That book is the entire compendium of the Greek astronomy and mathematics, in thirteen volumes. The magnum opus of his life.

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later. So tell me, how could that have happened, if the pious monks were so diligently copying these books in scriptoriums.

    How could such a book disappear without trace for a thousand years?

    Or the work of Democritus, who wrote at least 50 treatises on various topics, and none of which survived in completeness – because he was talking about atoms and void; that between atoms, there lies empty space. That's in essence a Hindu or a Buddhist thought.

    The Neoplatonic school, and its doctrine of reincarnation, was what they hated the most. There's no doubt that they were influenced, because so any similarities with the Buddhist and Hindu theories can't be a coincidence.

    Eventually the last of them had to leave Europe.

    One of the last was a woman, Hypatia. And a Coptic bishop wrote about her, "there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles."

    She was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia

    Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization, which didn’t preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
     
    First of all, what makes you say that they didn’t preserve any of the texts in their original form?

    For example, the aforementioned here Almagest was translated to Arabic from Greek and appeared in Europe in translation, but in the 16th century the Greek original resurfaced as well. For what a strange reason might they have not preserved the original text?

    Of course, they did.

    And how can you say that they had no interest in the ancient literature, when there are so many great Persian and Hindu stories translated into Arabic, and a lot of others, written originally in Arabic – like One Thousand and One Nights, and when there are so many traditions of Arabic poetry?

    And the earliest known science fiction novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature

    Regarding historiography, who do you think wrote it for them – Christians?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_historians

    Speaking of which, here is an example of their, Christians, interest in historiography.

    "We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction." – Diego de Landa, a Spanish Franciscan bishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Yucatán.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

    "Landa claimed that he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice and other idolatrous practices while rooting out native idolatry. Although one of the alleged victims of said sacrifices, Mani Encomendero Dasbatés, was later found to be alive."

    "Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times." – Michael D. Coe, an American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

    "Ninety-nine percent of what we today know of the Mayas, we know as the result either of what Landa has told us in the pages that follow, or have learned in the use of what he told." – William Gates, the renowned scholar, translator, and editor.

    Pope Urban II called the Muslims a vile race, that woshiped the devil, before the first Crusade. Had he managed to exterminate them, we would have never heard about One Thousand and One Nights, Al-Biruni, and Omar Khayyam.

    And though the Qur'an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

    And though they conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.

    And they were arguably the first in the western part of the earth to open universities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Education

    So yes, my view of their civilization is rather positive than negative, and if it was up to me to choose between the two religions for Europe, it might have been them.

    They created a great tradition of architecture and music, literature, science, poetry, and had a better relationship between various peoples within their world, did not commit the atrocities that the Christians did, and had been very successful – until the Europeans gave them a bit of the Christian love.

    And to be fair, they were not, and even less so are now, perfect; not even close – but who is?

    My favorite tradition is Yoga and Vedanta. One of these, or both, would be my religion of choice; if not one of these then Tibetan Buddhism.

    And even they are not perfect.

    I’m not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which make you look silly.
     
    Forgive me if my rhetorical abilities are not sophisticated enough for you, but to be honest simple speech appeals to me more, so consider me whatever you want. However, you haven't yet presented even one reasonable argument in defence of your criticism of mine.

    Not to mention that you lean to do it in a very rude manner.

    You haven't yet as well written anything that, in my humble opinion, was even remotely interesting or to a degree, forgive me, intelligent.

    You are calling me silly while saying something as ridiculous, as this paragraph of yours below.

    There’s not much evidence his [Seneca] tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren’t intended to be.
     
    And you are calling me cartoonish?

    Yes, son – we cannot even prove he at all existed. They did not have the internet back then.

    Hello.


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.

    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    But it isn’t hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.

    bs reply, give me some specifics (beyond what I mentioned myself in my previous comment).

    Perhaps you haven’t read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well.

    I admit I’m unfamiliar with the Almagest…had to look it up on Wikipedia. And if the article there is accurate (which of course it might not be), the Greek original became known in the Latin West in the 15th century and supplanted earlier translations from Arabic versions. But if the Greek original has survived, that means it was copied by the Byzantines…directly refuting your point that it was intentionally destroyed by Christians.

    Of course, they did.

    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators…everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn’t been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.

    And though the Qur’an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.

    Lol. The Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries at the latest, whereas Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity and created the modern world.
    I’m not even pro-Christian on the whole, in late antiquity my sympathies are more with the pagans, and I do believe there is something to the right-wing critique that Christianity is the root of many pernicious egalitarian ideas that are destroying Western countries (no “every human created in the image of God” for me). But you’re just recycling a lot of half-truths and outright myths.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @German_reader


    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators…everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn’t been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.
     
    The first part of what you say is undoubtedly true, as is the part about the armies of Islam. However, even Wikipedia has to admit the following.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics

    After the Fourth Crusade (1202–1204) and the Sack of Constantinople (1204), scholars such as William of Moerbeke gained access to the original Greek texts of scientists and philosophers, including Aristotle, Archimedes, Hero of Alexandria and Proclus, that had been preserved in the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire, and translated them directly into Latin.[4]

    So the Franks were not as destructive or bigoted as you claim. They preserved many of the ancient texts found, and one man, William of Moerbeke, deserves special mention.

    To understand why the Byzantines played a pivotal role in preserving ancient Greek texts see Spencer McDaniel's article.
    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/01/21/if-you-like-ancient-greek-texts-thank-the-byzantines-for-preserving-them/

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    12th/13th centuries... Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity
     
    In the 16th/17th century. You can't say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    And the level of the 13th century literature like "Nibelungenlied".. it feels to me like reading something for children? http://mcllibrary.org/Nibelungenlied/adventure1.html


    Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries
     
    Although Granada and Alhambra was Nasrid until the end of the 15th century, with intellectual decline compared to golden years of Al-Andalus, but they still had more advanced engineering and even air conditioning systems compared to anywhere in Europe. Imagine this today, how strange it would be, where the Arab world can be more advanced in engineering, technology and more intellectually curious.

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @German_reader, @Yahya

    , @Here Be Dragon
    @German_reader


    BS reply, give me some specifics [could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts].
     
    You have been given enough to not consider it BS.

    Porphyry alone is enough. Enough to realize, that he could not have been the only victim of the censorship, considering the method and the scale of persecution, the edict against heresies, and disappearance of other books, such as the entire work of Democritus, and the Almagest.

    And those two books in the end may have a lot of reference material. Do you want some evidence, or do you want to catch me as claiming something big without having any?

    St Augustine said, "that all superstition of pagans and heathens should be annihilated is what God wants, God commands, God proclaims!" – he is one of the most important Church Fathers. Do you think his word didn't mean anything?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-paganism_policies_of_the_early_Byzantine_Empire

    MacMullen, Ramsay (1986) Christianity & Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries, Yale University Press, p. 4: "non Christian writings came in for this same treatment, that is destruction in great bonfires at the center of the town square."

    Yale – is it good enough to quote? He continues, those who copied the books "were discouraged from replacing them by the threat of having their hands cut off." And anything that is not Christian was considered pagan.

    Another example.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Word

    "Celsus was the author of a work titled The True Word. The argument was contested by the contemporary Christian community and the book eventually banned, along with Porphyry's 15 books, so no complete copies are extant, but it can be reconstructed from Origen's detailed account of it in his refutation, which quotes Celsus extensively. Origen's work has survived and thereby preserved Celsus' work with it."

    And that is how the notion of the Earth being a sphere survived – it was mentioned here and there, and in a number of treatises of various people whom the Church recognized, so it could not be eradicated, but it was the Almagest alone where it was proven and described in detail. And it was burned – one copy was kept in Constantinople, but it was kept a secret; it was that copy which was translated into Arabic.

    The Greek original [of the Almagest] became known in the Latin West in the 15th century and supplanted earlier translations from Arabic versions. But if the Greek original has survived, that means it was copied by the Byzantines – directly refuting your point that it was intentionally destroyed by Christians.
     
    How does it refute my point?

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century and was known throughout the Hellenistic region of the Empire; it was in fact written in Alexandria, where Ptolemy lived. There must have been a lot of copies made before its disappearance, or else how might the Arab philosophers know about it? Some people remembered.

    There even was an inscription in stone, with numerical parameters from the book, in Canopus. The inscription has not survived either.

    And we are talking about a book described as one of the most influential scientific texts in history – a great treatise in 13 volumes, that was nowhere to be found, but was remembered, such a treasure it was – sought after, but impossible to obtain.

    And had it not been banned and burned, it would have been copied and found in every library, but it was not and instead it was kept in Constantinople, behind the door of a secret depository.

    "The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma'mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor."

    The caliph requested a copy of it as a condition of peace.


    And regarding the translation, the Greek original did not supplant the earlier translation from Arabic – quite the opposite; the first European translation was made in the 12th century from the Greek copy, which a delegate to Constantinople received from the emperor.

    The Arabic translation had spread at the time in Al-Andalus, and it was no longer a secret. And though this was the first translation of the Almagest into Latin, it was not as influential as a later translation from Arabic. As a matter of fact, the name Almagest itself is the Arabic name of the book, the original name in Greek was "the greatest compilation" but it has become famous as Almagestum – the same phrase in Arabic.

    The reason was that it required a translator who could understand the book, i.e. mastered the mathematics, and it happened to be impossible to find one. The centuries of retardation didn't go unnoticed.

    For that reason the translation from Arabic was a lot superior to the one made from Greek, and even when about three centuries later a Greek version appeared in Europe, and was translated under the patronage of the Pope, it did not supplant the old translation.

    The Arabic disputations of the Almagest were popular as well.

    So, if the aforementioned still is not enough, consider this: another great work of Ptolemy was Tetrabiblos, that one was his work on astrology. The same as the Almagest was a compendium of knowledge on astronomy, the Tetrabiblos was a foundational and the most important book on astrology – and still is.

    However, "no original manuscripts of the text have survived; its contents are known from translations, fragments, paraphrased copies, commentaries and later Greek manuscripts."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrabiblos

    "The oldest extant manuscript is an Arabic translation compiled in the 9th century. This was first translated into Latin in Barcelona, in 1138 and became influential as the first complete introduction of Ptolemy's astrological work in Medieval Europe."

    His other most important book had the same fate as the first one – rediscovered and translated by the Arabs in the 9th century, translated into Latin in the 12th in Al-Andalus.

    Had it not been for the Arab philosophers and astronomers, and the Arab mathematicians, both of these would have been forgotten, and lost forever; this is a fact.

    Homer, Herodotus, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators – everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium hadn’t been destroyed.
     
    No, we would not.

    These authors were not in opposition to the Church, whatever they wrote was copied and sold, could be found in any library, and was never burned.

    The Arab translators were not interested in these, for there was little value in their work as long as science is concerned.

    A translation and creation of a manusript was a hard work and an expensive one, so that is understandable that they spent their best effort on more important and more valuable matters, rather than reproducing tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators.

    And "zero interest in ancient literature" did not prevent them from creating their own, as well as becoming the most prominent historians of the time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_historians

    Don't forget that European translators have been giving a lot less attention to Arabic literature. There is ore than One Thousand and One Nights.

    Lol. The Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries at the latest, whereas Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity and created the modern world.
     
    Once an argument like "Lol" has been used, it can be said that an opponent has no better argument. You have nothing to support this Lol with.

    The period of flourishing in the Arab world lasted for six centuries, and the influence it had on Christendom is hard to overestimate – it pulled Europe out of the Dark Ages, which lasted a lot longer than their Golden Age.

    As for surpassing the achievements of antiquity, you are unfortunately incapable of understanding what they were, so let us not argue about that.

    Replies: @AP

  97. @Eustace Tilley (not)
    @AP

    Shot from the high Russian sky
    Was a famous and Powerful guy.
    When he duly confessed,
    All of Wien felt distressed.
    U2, Uncle Sam, often lie.

    Replies: @songbird

    The fun thing about the Powers imbroglio is to wonder whether he was BSing when he said that he could’t push the destructo switch because he couldn’t activate the ejection seat without cutting off his legs.

    Was he really just thinking that when the CIA told him there was a timer, that they were lying, and that maybe, the ejection seat instantly triggered the bomb? And, if so, was he right?

    I wonder whether there was any trace of the Taiwanese pilot who was shot down.

  98. @Mikhail
    Good one -

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/08/12/nato-backed-kiev-regime-resorts-to-nuclear-terrorism/

    NPR propaganda -

    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117141677/russias-long-played-with-u-s-racial-politics-brittney-griner-is-the-latest-examp

    versus reality -

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/08/08/griners-sentence-is-in-line-with-russias-strict-drug-penalties-but-how-long-she-serves-will-be-decided-outside-the-courtroom/

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/08/10/u-s-audacity-on-brittney-griner/

    In the below article, the aforementioned Israeli-American Naama Issacher was released on a presidential pardon, after serving ten months on a drug trafficking charge.

    https://theduran.com/the-worst-and-the-best-of-american-basketball-players/

    Note that some other countries (like Singapore if I'm not mistaken) would've given Griner a stiffer sentence. Note that her Russian club team's coach and teammate openly came to her defense. Were Russia so prejudiced, she wouldn't be allowed to play there in the first place.

    Michael McFaul's bigotry is sarcastically and appropriately rebuked -

    https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1558129205577146371

    Liberals in particular (as well as some conservatives) brought me up on the notion that collective guilt of a given national and/or ethnic group is bigoted. The role of some pro-Bandera elements in nurturing US based anti-Russian bigotry is noted in this article -

    https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/02/27/russia-ukraine-coverage-update-what-western-mass-media-downplays/

    The below Duran discussion notes how Western elites considered it a "right" for Soviet citizens to travel abroad. Now, you've folks like the elitist Estonian PM say that travel to the EU is a "privilege".

    https://theduran.com/eu-prepares-sanctions-package-aimed-at-banning-russian-travel-to-eu-member-states/

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    You write.

    Liberals in particular (as well as some conservatives) brought me up on the notion that collective guilt of a given national and/or ethnic group is bigoted.

    Really. Liberals – and others, it must be admitted – promoted the collective guilt of the German nation during and after WWII for their involvement in the Holohoax. The “survivors” of aforesaid Holohoax have been paid many billions by the German State in compensation, which has been used to kill and forcibly expel Palestinians. But, of course, there is no question of the Jewish State accepting collective guilt and paying compensation.

    The fact of the matter is that present day “Liberals” do not regard enforcing collective guilt on certain national or ethnic groups as bigoted. They regard it as perfectly natural. Of course, this does not apply to approved minorities like the Jews – just ask a Palestinian.

    This sort of thing has been going on for many years now, since at least WWI. I accept that 19th Century Liberals would have regarded the notion of collective ethnic guilt as wrong. They were very largely Christian in belief or ethics – so guilt was an induvidual matter, not a collective matter. What passes for modern day Liberalism has little to do with the Liberalism of the past – it’s not called Neoliberalism without good reason. So recent demonising of the Serbian and Russian peoples by modern Liberals, inter alia, is unsurprising.

  99. @German_reader
    @Here Be Dragon


    But it isn’t hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.
     
    bs reply, give me some specifics (beyond what I mentioned myself in my previous comment).

    Perhaps you haven’t read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well.

     

    I admit I'm unfamiliar with the Almagest...had to look it up on Wikipedia. And if the article there is accurate (which of course it might not be), the Greek original became known in the Latin West in the 15th century and supplanted earlier translations from Arabic versions. But if the Greek original has survived, that means it was copied by the Byzantines...directly refuting your point that it was intentionally destroyed by Christians.

    Of course, they did.
     
    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators...everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn't been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.

    And though the Qur’an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.
     
    Lol. The Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries at the latest, whereas Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity and created the modern world.
    I'm not even pro-Christian on the whole, in late antiquity my sympathies are more with the pagans, and I do believe there is something to the right-wing critique that Christianity is the root of many pernicious egalitarian ideas that are destroying Western countries (no "every human created in the image of God" for me). But you're just recycling a lot of half-truths and outright myths.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @Dmitry, @Here Be Dragon

    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators…everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn’t been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.

    The first part of what you say is undoubtedly true, as is the part about the armies of Islam. However, even Wikipedia has to admit the following.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics

    After the Fourth Crusade (1202–1204) and the Sack of Constantinople (1204), scholars such as William of Moerbeke gained access to the original Greek texts of scientists and philosophers, including Aristotle, Archimedes, Hero of Alexandria and Proclus, that had been preserved in the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire, and translated them directly into Latin.[4]

    So the Franks were not as destructive or bigoted as you claim. They preserved many of the ancient texts found, and one man, William of Moerbeke, deserves special mention.

    To understand why the Byzantines played a pivotal role in preserving ancient Greek texts see Spencer McDaniel’s article.
    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/01/21/if-you-like-ancient-greek-texts-thank-the-byzantines-for-preserving-them/

    • Agree: AP
    • Thanks: S
  100. That was some ending to Better Call Saul that further underscores that character’s flaws.

    He kind of reminds me of the Kiev regime, in terms of foolish decision making, which leads to not getting a much better deal.

  101. AP says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    @German_reader


    What’s your source for that? It’s true that some specifically anti-Christian writings, like the treatises by Porphyry and Julian, were systematically destroyed; but could you give some evidence for intentional mass destruction of philosophical texts?
     
    My knowledge of it comes from reading an assortment of various sources a long time ago, none of which in particular comes to my mind now. But it isn't hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.

    First of all, these anti-Christian writings weren't propaganda brochures. Porphyry's Against the Christians consisted of fifteen books. That was a meticulous and elaborate treatise, and yet no copies of this book exist. Not even one, not even a piece of it.

    We know about it from the citations and references to it in the treatises of the Christian apologetics. Porphyry was criticizing the writings of Christian philosophers and theologians. He apparently won that debate.

    "Some thirty Christian apologists, such as Methodius, Eusebius, Apollinaris, Augustine, Jerome, etc., responded to his challenge." And nevertheless, the Emperor ordered every copy of it to be burned. Maybe, if it had not been burned, Christianity would have lost.

    Maybe, it would not have lasted for a thousand years then.

    And that was not the only treatise of Porphyry that was lost. The same as many other works of the followers of Plato and Plotinus, for what they taught was incompatible with the Bible – but was in accord with the Hindu and the Buddhist thought.

    Perhaps you haven't read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well. That book is the entire compendium of the Greek astronomy and mathematics, in thirteen volumes. The magnum opus of his life.

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later. So tell me, how could that have happened, if the pious monks were so diligently copying these books in scriptoriums.

    How could such a book disappear without trace for a thousand years?

    Or the work of Democritus, who wrote at least 50 treatises on various topics, and none of which survived in completeness – because he was talking about atoms and void; that between atoms, there lies empty space. That's in essence a Hindu or a Buddhist thought.

    The Neoplatonic school, and its doctrine of reincarnation, was what they hated the most. There's no doubt that they were influenced, because so any similarities with the Buddhist and Hindu theories can't be a coincidence.

    Eventually the last of them had to leave Europe.

    One of the last was a woman, Hypatia. And a Coptic bishop wrote about her, "there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles."

    She was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia

    Your criticism is all the odder given your positive view of Islamic civilization, which didn’t preserve any of the ancient texts in their originals at all and had zero interest in ancient literature and historiography.
     
    First of all, what makes you say that they didn’t preserve any of the texts in their original form?

    For example, the aforementioned here Almagest was translated to Arabic from Greek and appeared in Europe in translation, but in the 16th century the Greek original resurfaced as well. For what a strange reason might they have not preserved the original text?

    Of course, they did.

    And how can you say that they had no interest in the ancient literature, when there are so many great Persian and Hindu stories translated into Arabic, and a lot of others, written originally in Arabic – like One Thousand and One Nights, and when there are so many traditions of Arabic poetry?

    And the earliest known science fiction novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature

    Regarding historiography, who do you think wrote it for them – Christians?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_historians

    Speaking of which, here is an example of their, Christians, interest in historiography.

    "We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction." – Diego de Landa, a Spanish Franciscan bishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Yucatán.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

    "Landa claimed that he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice and other idolatrous practices while rooting out native idolatry. Although one of the alleged victims of said sacrifices, Mani Encomendero Dasbatés, was later found to be alive."

    "Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times." – Michael D. Coe, an American archaeologist, anthropologist, epigrapher, and author.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

    "Ninety-nine percent of what we today know of the Mayas, we know as the result either of what Landa has told us in the pages that follow, or have learned in the use of what he told." – William Gates, the renowned scholar, translator, and editor.

    Pope Urban II called the Muslims a vile race, that woshiped the devil, before the first Crusade. Had he managed to exterminate them, we would have never heard about One Thousand and One Nights, Al-Biruni, and Omar Khayyam.

    And though the Qur'an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

    And though they conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.

    And they were arguably the first in the western part of the earth to open universities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Education

    So yes, my view of their civilization is rather positive than negative, and if it was up to me to choose between the two religions for Europe, it might have been them.

    They created a great tradition of architecture and music, literature, science, poetry, and had a better relationship between various peoples within their world, did not commit the atrocities that the Christians did, and had been very successful – until the Europeans gave them a bit of the Christian love.

    And to be fair, they were not, and even less so are now, perfect; not even close – but who is?

    My favorite tradition is Yoga and Vedanta. One of these, or both, would be my religion of choice; if not one of these then Tibetan Buddhism.

    And even they are not perfect.

    I’m not even entirely unsympathetic to criticism of Christianity, but you make a lot of cartoonish claims which make you look silly.
     
    Forgive me if my rhetorical abilities are not sophisticated enough for you, but to be honest simple speech appeals to me more, so consider me whatever you want. However, you haven't yet presented even one reasonable argument in defence of your criticism of mine.

    Not to mention that you lean to do it in a very rude manner.

    You haven't yet as well written anything that, in my humble opinion, was even remotely interesting or to a degree, forgive me, intelligent.

    You are calling me silly while saying something as ridiculous, as this paragraph of yours below.

    There’s not much evidence his [Seneca] tragedies actually were performed, maybe they even weren’t intended to be.
     
    And you are calling me cartoonish?

    Yes, son – we cannot even prove he at all existed. They did not have the internet back then.

    Hello.


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.

    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    I cannot do better than German Reader’s comment but will make some obvious points he didn’t bother to make:

    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.
    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    About Darkening Age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Actual scholars mostly ridicule it.

    Only some impressed by such nonsensical works would make outrageously ignorant claims such as:

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later

    It was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Medieval_Europe

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from “the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘the orb of the world’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe.” (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[84] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, “Now the Earth’s roundness and the Sun’s orbit constitute the obstacle to the day’s being equally long in every land.”[85]

    Bede was lucid about Earth’s sphericity, writing “We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth’s circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe… For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides.”

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar Anania Shirakatsi described the world as “being like an egg with a spherical yolk (the globe) surrounded by a layer of white (the atmosphere) and covered with a hard shell (the sky

    During the High Middle Ages, the astronomical knowledge in Christian Europe was extended beyond what was transmitted directly from ancient authors by transmission of learning from Medieval Islamic astronomy. An early student of such learning was Gerbert d’Aurillac, the later Pope Sylvester II.

    Saint Hildegard (Hildegard von Bingen, 1098–1179), depicted the spherical Earth several times in her work Liber Divinorum Operum.[88]

    Johannes de Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256 AD) wrote a famous work on Astronomy called Tractatus de Sphaera, based on Ptolemy, which primarily considers the sphere of the sky. However, it contains clear proofs of Earth’s sphericity in the first chapter.[89][90]

    Many scholastic commentators on Aristotle’s On the Heavens and Sacrobosco’s Treatise on the Sphere unanimously agreed that Earth is spherical or round.[91] Grant observes that no author who had studied at a medieval university thought that Earth was flat.[92]

    The Elucidarium of Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of lesser clergy, which was translated into Middle English, Old French, Middle High German, Old Russian, Middle Dutch, Old Norse, Icelandic, Spanish, and several Italian dialects, explicitly refers to a spherical Earth. Likewise, the fact that Bertold von Regensburg (mid-13th century) used the spherical Earth as an illustration in a sermon shows that he could assume this knowledge among his congregation. The sermon was preached in the vernacular German, and thus was not intended for a learned audience.

    Or the work of Democritus,

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia

    Author is a young woke New Yorker. From your link: “Soraya Field Fiorio is a writer and feminist historian based in New York City.”

    While it is true that she was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A real appraisal of her:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/08/06/who-was-hypatia-of-alexandria-really/

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times.”

    It’s too bad we don’t have those books for research purposes, but one can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.

    Christians were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    And though they [Muslims] conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.

    Muslims didn’t encounter demon-worshipping Mesoamericans.

    This is what Sikhs have to say about Islamic behavior in India:

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

    With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. Nadir Shah made a mountain of the skulls of the Hindus he killed in Delhi alone. Babur raised towers of Hindu skulls at Khanua when he defeated Rana Sanga in 1527 and later he repeated the same horrors after capturing the fort of Chanderi. Akbar ordered a general massacre of 30,000 Rajputs after he captured Chithorgarh in 1568. The Bahamani Sultans had an annual agenda of killing a minimum of 100,000 Hindus every year.

    :::::::::::::::::::

    It’s interesting that you chose not to settle not in a place such as India, or a Muslim country, or Thailand, or Israel (you are part Jewish) – but in Christendom.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    Not to sound like a revisionist on the expansion of Islam (I am not), but I do wonder if the name Hindu Kush might have been related to the fact that a lot of Hindus are vegetarians and on long journeys in difficult conditions, when the grain ran out, they could not eat the dead pack animals.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Wokechoke, @AP

    , @Here Be Dragon
    @AP


    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.
     
    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn't support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there's a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.


    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.
     
    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can't do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my penis in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behavior, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.


    "The 7th-century scholar described the world as being like an egg and covered with a hard shell." – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.
     
    You have no idea what you are talking about.


    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    "The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma'mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175."

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”

    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people's position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there's a reputation to consider – and what's more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    "The author is a young woke New Yorker" – exactly as has been said, the person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    "A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others."

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who "attack all the sacraments of the Church" and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    "Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins."

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don't they sell it, or didn't they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    "On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle."

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    "Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it."

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it's in the Bible – "when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them" – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, "thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire."

    And it is never a wrong deed, "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    "The Qur'an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand'. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur'an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, "As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries."

    Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected persons.

    You are a liar; but as a Christian, must follow the teaching of Christ, and not of a Pope. Not even of the Church, and not of the priesthood, but of Christ himself; and his teaching that is in his book, and his book is straightforward and clear-cut.

    He said, "Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    So be it.

    , @Here Be Dragon
    @AP

    For some reason, the quotation tags disappeared from the text below the More tag, and it made the entire comment hard to read and understand, so let me post it once again and perhaps without the More tag, it is long so please excuse me for it. Let us hope it will work this time.

    This comment is the same as the one above it, so disregard the former.


    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.
     
    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn't support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there's a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.
     
    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can't do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my groin in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behaviour, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar described the world as being like an egg covered with a hard shell – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.
     
    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    "The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma'mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175."

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”
     
    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people's position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there's a reputation to consider – and what's more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.
     
    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    "The author is a young woke New Yorker" – exactly as has been said, the person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.
     
    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    "A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others."

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who "attack all the sacraments of the Church" and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    "Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins."

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don't they sell it, or didn't they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    "On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle."

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    "Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it."

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it's in the Bible – "when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them" – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, "thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire."

    And it is never a wrong deed, "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.
     
    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    "The Qur'an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand'. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur'an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, "As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries."

    Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected persons.

    You are a liar; but as a Christian, must follow the teaching of Christ, and not of a Pope. Not even of the Church, and not of the priesthood, but of Christ himself; and his teaching that is in his book, and his book is straightforward and clear-cut.

    He said, "Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    So be it.

    Replies: @A123, @AP

  102. @German_reader
    @Here Be Dragon


    But it isn’t hard to find out – be curious; it is common knowledge.
     
    bs reply, give me some specifics (beyond what I mentioned myself in my previous comment).

    Perhaps you haven’t read my comment to which you are here replying, but in it the work of Ptolemy titled Almagest was mentioned as well.

     

    I admit I'm unfamiliar with the Almagest...had to look it up on Wikipedia. And if the article there is accurate (which of course it might not be), the Greek original became known in the Latin West in the 15th century and supplanted earlier translations from Arabic versions. But if the Greek original has survived, that means it was copied by the Byzantines...directly refuting your point that it was intentionally destroyed by Christians.

    Of course, they did.
     
    Nah. Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, the Athenian tragedies, comedies and speeches of the great orators...everything we have of them was preserved by the Byzantines. And presumably we would have more of ancient Greek literature, philosophy and historiography, if Byzantium (and with it countless manucripts) hadn't been destroyed by the armies of Islam, admittedly with some help from bigoted Latin Christians.

    And though the Qur’an is, in my humble opinion, a boring and childish book – even more than the Bible, – they had in spite of that enough intelligence to not oppose the philosophy, and let the esoteric thought be, and consequently they now have a number of Sufi teachings that can satisfy even the most demanding thinkers, whereas Christianity has nothing to offer.
     
    Lol. The Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries at the latest, whereas Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity and created the modern world.
    I'm not even pro-Christian on the whole, in late antiquity my sympathies are more with the pagans, and I do believe there is something to the right-wing critique that Christianity is the root of many pernicious egalitarian ideas that are destroying Western countries (no "every human created in the image of God" for me). But you're just recycling a lot of half-truths and outright myths.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @Dmitry, @Here Be Dragon

    12th/13th centuries… Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity

    In the 16th/17th century. You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    And the level of the 13th century literature like “Nibelungenlied”.. it feels to me like reading something for children? http://mcllibrary.org/Nibelungenlied/adventure1.html

    Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries

    Although Granada and Alhambra was Nasrid until the end of the 15th century, with intellectual decline compared to golden years of Al-Andalus, but they still had more advanced engineering and even air conditioning systems compared to anywhere in Europe. Imagine this today, how strange it would be, where the Arab world can be more advanced in engineering, technology and more intellectually curious.

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    In the 16th/17th century. You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.
     
    Demonstrably false, speaking as someone who's studied Antiquity thoroughly. Perhaps not by the 12th, but certainly by the 13th, and arguing that 14th century Italy or 15th century England was behind Antiquity in any meaningful way just becomes absurd.
    Don't have time to write an extensive reply until the weekend, but Europe by the high middle ages really was in most aspect a much more civilised, technologically advanced and humane place than the Greco-Roman world (including southern Europe, obviously any meaningful comparison with ancient northern Europe isn't possible).
    Though much of this can be argued that Antiquity, even today, is extremely idealised in the popular mind, compared with practically any other period in European history. A curious example of this is how during the Middle Ages was how new innovations were constantly referring to Classical antecedents, even when they were genuine technological or administrative novelties. The European Middle Ages were constantly innovating without knowing or acknowleging it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.
     
    I'm not an expert on these issues, but it seems to me quite likely that Europe by the 13th century was already in some ways technologically more advanced than Greco-Roman antiquity had been, e. g. widespread use of water power (also wind mills), or the beginnings of clock-making, also forms of economic organization and finance may already have been more complex (there were trading companies in antiquity, but iirc the monetary economy and the means for raising capital in advanced regions like northern Italy had surpassed ancient precedents by the 12th/13th centuries). And while much of it isn't to my personal taste, Latin Europe in the high Middle Ages had a developed intellectual culture, and most importantly a dynamic one, with increasing use of literacy for administration, business etc. even among laymen.
    I can't really go into greater depth on this now (would have to look many things up), but it's definitely false that the entire period of 500-1500 was inferior in every way (regarding material culture, I won't go into religious values or the like) to Greco-Roman antiquity. It may apply for the earlier centuries, but by 1200 or so it seems very doubtful to me.

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

    , @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

     

    Well in the mid-20th century there was a great hope in the Arab world that "our" time had come and we would restore our position among the leading civilizations after unshackling ourselves from the muti-century long colonial occupation by Turks and Europeans. That by and large failed, as demonstrated by the fact that non-oil regions of the Arab world today lag almost every other major socio-political bloc in human development indices except perhaps India and sub-Saharan Africa. But the Arab world was not destined to fail. In fact, the 19th and 20th century saw a cultural renaissance called "The Nahda" (enlightenment in Arabic) in and around Egypt, Iraq, the Maghreb and the Levant (as usual, the Gulf did not contribute much to this cultural flowering).

    In the literary sphere, Egypt produced a Nobel laureate in the name of Naguib Mahfouz (Egyptian Muslim), and two great writers, one of whom was Taha Hussein (Egyptian Muslim), who wrote more than 60 books (including 6 novels) and 1,300 articles despite being blind after receiving faulty treatment for cophthalmia at the age of two. The other great writer was poet Ahmad Shawqi (Egyptian Muslim) who was born into a wealthy family of mixed Circassian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Greek roots; and of whom there is a statue in Rome. Other Egyptian authors from the time period listed in Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment include: Hafiz Ibrahim (Turco-Egyptian), Tawfiq al-Hakim (Turco-Egyptian) and Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad (Egyptian Muslim), Mohammed Hussein Heikal (Egyptian Muslim), Ibrahim al-Mazini (Egyptian Muslim), Muhammad al-Muwaylihi (Egyptian Muslim), Edwar al-Kharrat (Coptic Egyptian).

    The Levant produced the well-known author of "The Prophet" Khalil Gibran (Lebanese Christian), Mikhail Naimy (Lebanese Christian), Mahmoud Darwish (Palestinian Muslim), Jabra Ibrahim Jabra (Palestinian-Assyrian) and my favorite author Ameen Rihani (Lebanese Christian). Others include Nizar Qabbani (Syrian Muslim), Ghada al-Samman (Syrian Muslim), Emile Habibi (Palestinian Christian), May Ziadeh (Palestinian Christian), Khalil Beidas (Palestinian Christian), Ghassan Kanafani (Palestinian Muslim), Said Akl (Lebanese Christian). Notable authors from other regions of the Arab world include Jamil Sidqi al-Zahawi (Iraqi Muslim), Kateb Yacine (Algerian Muslim), Assia Djebar (Algerian Muslim), Mouloud Feraoun (Algerian Muslim), Mohamed Choukri (Moroccan Muslim), Abdul Rahman Munif (Saudi Arabian), Tayeb Salih (Sudanese Muslim).

    Among currently living authors, Elias Khoury (Lebanese Christian), Amin Maalouf (Lebanese Christian), Adonis (Syrian Alawite), Sonallah Ibrahim (Egyptian Muslim), Dunya Mikhail (Iraqi Christian), Laila Lalami (Moroccan Muslim), and Hanan al-Shaykh (Lebanese Muslim) stand out from the rest. (This is a good link on the 100 best Arabic books according to the Arab writers union: https://arablit.org/2010/04/23/the-best-100-arabic-books-according-to-the-arab-writers-union-1-10/)

    Since I already gave too many literary recommendations; if you are interested in Arab political thought I'd recommend Albert Hourani's "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age 1798-1939", "Adrift: How Our World Lost Its Way" by Amin Maalouf, and "Being Arab" by Samir Kassir. Much of it deals with the decline of the Arab world relative to its own glorious past as well as the present day.

    The 20th century also saw the birth of Arab cinema in Egypt; which is the third oldest in the world. Some prominent (and not-so-prominent) Arab directors include Youssef Chahine (Egyptian Muslim), Shadi Abdel Salam (Egyptian Muslim), Terrence Malick (Assyrian Chrisitian), Elia Suleiman (Palestinian Christian), Hanny Abu-Assad (Palestinian Muslim), Rachid Bouchareb (Algerian Muslim), Ziad Doueiri (Lebanese Christian), Nadine Labaki (Lebanese Christian), Kaouther Ben Hania (Tunisian Muslim).

    11 Arabic movies were nominated for the Academy Awards' Best International Feature Film:

    1. Z (Algerian-Greek - 1969)
    2. Le Bal (Algerian-Italian - 1983)
    3. Dust Of Life (Algerian - 1995)
    4. Paradise Now (Palestinian - 2005)
    5. Days Of Glory (Algerian - 2006)
    6. Outside The Law (Algerian - 2010)
    7. Omar (Palestinian - 2013)
    8. Theeb (Jordanian - 2015)
    9. The Insult (Lebanese - 2017)
    10. Capernaum (Lebanese - 2018)
    11. The Man Who Sold His Skin (Tunisian - 2021)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees_for_Best_International_Feature_Film#1940s

    The top 100 Arabic films complied by DIFF based on selections by 475 regional and international film critics, writers, novelists and academics: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064340433/.

    I may get to music in another post (I've discovered all sorts of obscure Arab composers and singers since I wrote a post on Arab music a few months ago. They are much better than most of the ones I listed).



    In economic terms, the Middle Eastern portion of the Arab world was doing fairly well compared to Iran, Turkey, Brazil, and South Korea during much of the 20th century; and was roughly on par with Poland, Spain and Greece. North Africa lagged behind everyone else though.

    According to the Maddison project; in 1950 GDP per capita were as follows:

    1. Poland = 3,900
    2. Lebanon = 3,872
    3. Syria = 3,838
    4. Spain = 3,464
    5. Greece = 3,052
    6. Iran = 2,742
    7. Brazil = 2,236
    8. Iraq = 2,174
    9. Algeria = 2,176
    10. Turkey = 2,079
    11. Egypt = 1,451
    12. Korea = 998

    By 1960 the rankings stayed roughly the same, with Lebanon pulling ahead to No. 1:

    1. Lebanon = 5,812
    2. Poland = 5,125
    3. Spain = 5,037
    4. Greece = 5,015
    5. Syria = 4,819
    6. Iraq = 4,360
    7. Iran = 3,437
    8. Brazil = 3,398
    9. Algeria = 3,328
    10. Turkey = 3,041
    11. Egypt = 1,580
    12. Korea = 1,548

    In 1980, Lebanon falls behind due to civil war, Greece and Spain pull ahead, but Syria and Iraq remain ahead of Poland, Brazil, Turkey, Iran and Korea:

    1. Greece = 14,300
    2. Spain = 14,008
    3. Syria = 10,374
    4. Iraq = 10,165
    5. Poland = 9,149
    6. Brazil = 8,249
    7. Iran = 6,334
    8. Turkey = 6,070
    9. Korea = 6,064
    10. Algeria = 5,024
    11. Lebanon = 4,608
    12. Egypt = 3,298

    By 2000, every Arab country is now behind peer regions:

    1. Spain = 26,995
    2. Korea = 23,108
    3. Greece = 20,965
    4. Poland = 12,732
    5. Turkey = 11,904
    6. Brazil = 9,834
    7. Iran = 9,105
    8. Syria = 7,668
    9. Lebanon = 7,406
    10. Algeria = 6,835
    11. Egypt = 6,594
    12. Iraq = 3,649

    And it remains so for the next 20 years till the present day.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon, @Dmitry

  103. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    It doesn’t matter – traffic goes to the consumer.
     
    Sure, and according to google searches the countries with the most people looking for porn are Muslim countries.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states

    That’s what the Times of India reported [The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan]. People search for porn on Google most in Pakistan.

    It doesn’t matter – a porn addict doesn’t use Google search. He uses bookmarks.
     
    Proof of that?

    And are you as much of an expert on porn addiction as you are on drug abuse?

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure.

    Sure – in America, they only kill one person in three days. Not a big deal!
     
    Out of 330 million people.

    And every day 102 people in the USA die in car crashes.

    The fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.

    They consume a quarter of what the Americans do, in spite of America being a quarter of their population.
     
    They search for porn more than do Americans.

    "That cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it’s a popular one, but its not overall pornography."

    A person who watches porn on a rare occasion will use Google search. A regular user will go straight to Pornhub.
     
    They don't access pornography through google or chrome?

    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports.

    How do you know this – from another NGO, or did Arestovich say so?
     
    From a journalist-consumer. This was written before this war, who knew Severodonetsk would feature on world news:

    http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7573

    “Lola, my whore, came from Severodonetsk, a toxic dump in the Lugansk oblast, the Russified east of Ukraine.I rented her late on Sunday, November 28th — the same day that the Ukrainian governors of several pro-Yanukovich regions were holding a congress in Severodonetsk, threatening to create a breakaway southeastern Ukrainian republic if the “orange” revolution in Kiev succeeded. It was one of those coincidences that writers invent to give a sordid story some relevance — but invention in this case isn’t necessary. We’re talking about whores here, folks. Any john in Moscow knows that Yanukovich country, the pro-Russian southeast of Ukraine, is the snapper-basket of Europe, the white world’s most fertile breeding ground for whores, the Golden Triangle of prostitution production.”

    :::::::::::::::

    And it can be inferred from HIV rates.

    Many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU.

    “The countries of origin visible to the respondents” – that means that the Ukrainian prostitutes are counted as Russian. Who knew what Ukraine is, in 2008?
     
    No, Ukrainians are counted separately. And after the Orange Revolution Ukraine was not unknown.

    Russians second place, after Romanians.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12142-010-0188-1

    More about Russian prostitution:

    "Russia has become one of the largest exporters of women for the sex industry "

    Soviet morality:

    The life of elite prostitutes was portrayed as carefree and prosperous in television and later in a hit movie “Interdevochka.” This mythology of prostitution in the media infiltrated the culture. According to two public opinion polls conducted among high school girls at the end of 1989, prostitution made the top ten of the most prestigious and desirable professions

    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter. The numbers are congruent. Don’t dishonestly imply otherwise.

    No problem. The same source:

    Homicide rate in Russia from 1990 to 2020
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1045368/homicide-rate-in-russia/

    The United States – 6.5, the Russian Federation – 4.7, and these numbers are congruent. Don’t imply otherwise.

    The homicide rate in the United States is 40 percent higher!
     
    According to that source. United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems gives a Russian rate of 7.3 and American rate of 6.3:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Definition

    No, [the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States] you are just lying as usual.

    You are a liar – not me
     
    I provided numbers from United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems. That is not a lie. To claim that it is, is - a lie.

    "The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia; 1.2% may be an underestimate."

    Their numbers are accurate, because they are high anyway – more than twice higher, than the American rate.
     
    That is the low estimate from one government department in Russia. You ignored this so I'll rpeat it:

    Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that’s independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky’s team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    But a medic is supposed to know, that any epidemic anywhere has a peak.
     
    And someone who was honest would understand that 30 years ago treatment was less effective and less accessible than it is now. Otherwise America's peaks would be much lower.

    Here is the most relevant number:

    Number of new cases of HIV, 1990 to 2019
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-cases-of-hiv-infection?tab=chart&country=RUS~USA

    https://i.imgur.com/sCcfes3.png

    Even though Russia has less than half the population of the USA, it has nearly twice as many new cases of HIV.

    So Russia has nearly a 4x higher rate of new HIV infections.

    And more than a half of it is transmitted through drug use, and not through sex.
     
    And in the USA it's about 7% through IV drug use.

    So remove the drug users and Russia still has about a 2x higher rate of HIV infections.

    But don't pretend that drug abusers aren't degenerate, just because you are one of them.

    The American degenerates, of the most extreme kind – serial killers, murder one person per every 3 days, and that’s a lot.
     
    Out of 330 million it is not much. And according to the United Nations Surveys on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate.

    Countries that Produced the Largest Number of Serial Killers
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-have-produced-the-most-serial-killers.html

    The United States has produced 3,204 serial killers – 0.99 per 100,000 people; that is, every small town in the United States has at least one serial killer. And in the Russian Federation there’s 0.05 serial killers per 100,000 people.
     
    According to your own source, Russia's numbers can't be counted:

    "Some people theorize that the United States has better record-keeping than some other countries and law enforcement agencies are better at linking murders together. This does hold true for countries like Russia or China in fact, they often do not report them at all unless word somehow gets out to the western press. "

    So we don't know what the real number of serial killers is in Russia. Given that the overall homicide rate is higher until recently, there is no reason to assume as you do that the number is lower.

    And homicide rate in the United States is growing. Homicide rate in Russia is 4.7, and in the United States 6.5 – 40% higher.
     
    According to Statista. But not according to the UN.

    Actually most sources give a Russian homicide rate of 7.3:

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/RUS/russia/murder-homicide-rate

    And there are 3 million of Ukrainian women, selling their bodies – for the most part, the head – to Uzbekistani taxi drivers.
     
    Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

    Remember, you wrote:

    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.

     

    I responded: You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    “Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million”

    That’s the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    That is a more degenerate society. And you didn’t bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates.

    And it shouldn’t be mentioned.
     
    For a degenerate - it shouldn't be.

    Marriage is a tribal superstition in the first place, and according to your logic, countries like South Africa, Mexico, Albania, Brazil, and even Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Colombia – these nations are less degenerate, and therefore more spiritual, than the United States, because their divorce rate is lower.
     
    South Africa has a high HIV rate. The other countries have their own problems but they are less degenerate than the USA, which in turn is less degenerate than Russia.

    And countries like Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain are the most degenerate on earth – they have the highest divorce rate.
     
    Perhaps you are too stupid to consider more than one variable at once. They have low rates of HIV, murder, abortion, etc.

    Russia has a higher number of marriages, than the United States does – 9.2 versus 6.8;
    Number of divorces in each year per 1,000 people in the population
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/divorces-per-1000-people?country=USA~RUS

    The United States had the divorce rate of 5.3 in 1980, and 5.0 in 1985, when the Soviet Russia had 4.0; there has never been such a high rate of divorces in Russia. Even in 2007, when the Russian rate had a peak, it was at 4.8 versus 3.6 in the United States.
     

    And at the same time the marriage rate was 8.9 in Russia and 7.3 in America – i.e. 53.9 percent and 49.3 percent of divorces in relation to marriages, respectively which is essentially the same.
     
    Okay, this point is valid. Russia is only slightly worse than the USA. But, still worse.

    Share of all children born to mothers who were not married at the time of birth
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-births-outside-marriage?country=~USA

     

    No Russia on that chart.

    American rate is boosted by Blacks - their rate is 69%.

    Among Euro-Americans it is 28%:

    https://www.ceousa.org/2020/02/26/percentage-of-births-to-unmarried-women/

    In Russia it's slightly worse, 29.4%:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/single-mothers-left-in-charge-of-1-in-3-russian-households-dkmqbctdz

    So, in terms of HIV - Russia a lot worse than USA.
    Murder - Russia worse according to most sources, including UN.
    Abortion - Russia a lot worse
    Divorce - Russia slightly worse
    Kids to unmarried women - Russia slightly worse than the USA's Europeans, but better overall due to Blacks

    Replies: @A123, @Wielgus

    Dan Davies wrote a biography entitled In Plain Sight of the British TV presenter and as it later emerged, serial pedophile Jimmy Savile. Savile died in 2011. The book was published in 2014. According to Davies, who interviewed Savile a number of times, in his last interview Savile expressed the desire for an 18-year-old Ukrainian woman. A little later, perhaps a little forgetful but also suggesting he had an idee fixe about it, he repeated the wish but this time the age mentioned was 16. It was Ukrainian he mentioned, not Russian. It is likely Savile was thinking in terms of even younger ages but he obviously regarded Ukraine as a source of young female flesh.

  104. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    12th/13th centuries... Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity
     
    In the 16th/17th century. You can't say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    And the level of the 13th century literature like "Nibelungenlied".. it feels to me like reading something for children? http://mcllibrary.org/Nibelungenlied/adventure1.html


    Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries
     
    Although Granada and Alhambra was Nasrid until the end of the 15th century, with intellectual decline compared to golden years of Al-Andalus, but they still had more advanced engineering and even air conditioning systems compared to anywhere in Europe. Imagine this today, how strange it would be, where the Arab world can be more advanced in engineering, technology and more intellectually curious.

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @German_reader, @Yahya

    In the 16th/17th century. You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    Demonstrably false, speaking as someone who’s studied Antiquity thoroughly. Perhaps not by the 12th, but certainly by the 13th, and arguing that 14th century Italy or 15th century England was behind Antiquity in any meaningful way just becomes absurd.
    Don’t have time to write an extensive reply until the weekend, but Europe by the high middle ages really was in most aspect a much more civilised, technologically advanced and humane place than the Greco-Roman world (including southern Europe, obviously any meaningful comparison with ancient northern Europe isn’t possible).
    Though much of this can be argued that Antiquity, even today, is extremely idealised in the popular mind, compared with practically any other period in European history. A curious example of this is how during the Middle Ages was how new innovations were constantly referring to Classical antecedents, even when they were genuine technological or administrative novelties. The European Middle Ages were constantly innovating without knowing or acknowleging it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    Feudalism was often more humane than the ancient slave societies and late medieval economy is preparing for the development of bourgeois capitalism, but in the art, literature, science, philosophy, mathematics, civil engineering, there was a long fall from achievements of antiquity.

    For example, compare the level of academic discipline, literary writing, representative art, mathematics.

    It's only the 16th/17th century that anyone knows as much maths as Archimedes in the 3rd century BC.

    Science is based on Aristotle until the 16th century.

    It's only in the 16th century after Michelangelo that sculpture is becoming as accurate as the classical sculpture.

    It's only in the 18th/19th century, that historians will try to begin writing in an objective way like they have in 5th century Athens.

    It's only in the 19th century, that the Greek logic studies are surpassed by Boole and De Morgan.


    idealised in the popular mind
     
    It's less in the popular, but in the nerdy 1% of people which are reading the ancient texts. If you compare reading Thucydides with a 12th century writing like the Russian chronicles. Sophistication difference is like comparing a 19th century English writer from London with a writer of tribal history in 19th century Ethiopia.

    On the other hand, the ancient economies were slave owners, so by comparison morally they will be often more like 19th century Ethiopia for the majority of the people (and even 19th century capitalist London of Dickens, can appear like a moral utopia in comparison).

  105. The collapse of liberal-democratic narratives about ww2 is the funniest part of the war.

    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht. Sweden wasn’t really neutral and Finland, Romania, Hungary were actually pretty keen.

    That’s not to mention fascists like Italy and Spain sending divisions into the USSR. The Poles, well they are Poles, a sui generis case of getting into wars they cannot win again and again.

    ww2 never ended as Charlie Manson zanily pointed out. But here, all the Germans needed to do was subordinate themselves to Anglo-Jewish power and then be given a free hand in the East with the Russian ethnics. what a neat trick.

    What result will the coming Russo-Chinese alliance produce though? the same defeat for Europe or the Balkanization of the resources of Russia?

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Wokechoke


    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht. Sweden wasn’t really neutral and Finland, Romania, Hungary were actually pretty keen.
     
    Junger's Paris diary is fascinating just for what you can conclude that he does not out and out state.

    The French elite not only accepted the Nazis no questions asked they wanted to emulate them. They gladly handed over any Jews they asked for. (An accurate accounting would be interesting. It's got to be closer to .1 than .9).
    The same seems to be true of Belgium and Holland. Getting into the SS was like getting into Harvard.

    I always thought Bohr was totally cut out of the loop on the western atom bomb program and one time I wrote something to that effect and utu went ballistic on me within minutes. I have always thought that was one of the crazier comments he wrote.

    Anyway the Nazis were not good guys. On the other hand they were fighting the commies who basically totally sucked and Roosevelt and Churchill were fools. Nobody ever gave a damn about (some poor) Jews.
    , @Coconuts
    @Wokechoke


    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht.
     
    The French conservative support for the Wehrmacht is a wacky idea; there was a tendency for French conservatives to blame the left for delivering France to the Germans, by promoting pacifism and disaffection pre-war, or following Comintern orders in the Communist case.

    Franco was pretty pro-Nazi, but the one division he sent was payback for the Condor Legion and to thank the Soviets for their intervention in Spain during 1936-39.
  106. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon

    I cannot do better than German Reader's comment but will make some obvious points he didn't bother to make:


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.
    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

     

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called "researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco", another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    About Darkening Age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Actual scholars mostly ridicule it.

    Only some impressed by such nonsensical works would make outrageously ignorant claims such as:

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later
     
    It was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Medieval_Europe

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[84] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[85]

    Bede was lucid about Earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar Anania Shirakatsi described the world as "being like an egg with a spherical yolk (the globe) surrounded by a layer of white (the atmosphere) and covered with a hard shell (the sky

    During the High Middle Ages, the astronomical knowledge in Christian Europe was extended beyond what was transmitted directly from ancient authors by transmission of learning from Medieval Islamic astronomy. An early student of such learning was Gerbert d'Aurillac, the later Pope Sylvester II.

    Saint Hildegard (Hildegard von Bingen, 1098–1179), depicted the spherical Earth several times in her work Liber Divinorum Operum.[88]

    Johannes de Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256 AD) wrote a famous work on Astronomy called Tractatus de Sphaera, based on Ptolemy, which primarily considers the sphere of the sky. However, it contains clear proofs of Earth's sphericity in the first chapter.[89][90]

    Many scholastic commentators on Aristotle's On the Heavens and Sacrobosco's Treatise on the Sphere unanimously agreed that Earth is spherical or round.[91] Grant observes that no author who had studied at a medieval university thought that Earth was flat.[92]

    The Elucidarium of Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of lesser clergy, which was translated into Middle English, Old French, Middle High German, Old Russian, Middle Dutch, Old Norse, Icelandic, Spanish, and several Italian dialects, explicitly refers to a spherical Earth. Likewise, the fact that Bertold von Regensburg (mid-13th century) used the spherical Earth as an illustration in a sermon shows that he could assume this knowledge among his congregation. The sermon was preached in the vernacular German, and thus was not intended for a learned audience.

    Or the work of Democritus,
     
    "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned."

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia
     
    Author is a young woke New Yorker. From your link: "Soraya Field Fiorio is a writer and feminist historian based in New York City."

    While it is true that she was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A real appraisal of her:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/08/06/who-was-hypatia-of-alexandria-really/

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times."

    It's too bad we don't have those books for research purposes, but one can't blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.
     
    Christians were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    And though they [Muslims] conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.
     
    Muslims didn't encounter demon-worshipping Mesoamericans.

    This is what Sikhs have to say about Islamic behavior in India:

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

    With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. Nadir Shah made a mountain of the skulls of the Hindus he killed in Delhi alone. Babur raised towers of Hindu skulls at Khanua when he defeated Rana Sanga in 1527 and later he repeated the same horrors after capturing the fort of Chanderi. Akbar ordered a general massacre of 30,000 Rajputs after he captured Chithorgarh in 1568. The Bahamani Sultans had an annual agenda of killing a minimum of 100,000 Hindus every year.

    :::::::::::::::::::

    It's interesting that you chose not to settle not in a place such as India, or a Muslim country, or Thailand, or Israel (you are part Jewish) - but in Christendom.

    Replies: @songbird, @Here Be Dragon, @Here Be Dragon

    Not to sound like a revisionist on the expansion of Islam (I am not), but I do wonder if the name Hindu Kush might have been related to the fact that a lot of Hindus are vegetarians and on long journeys in difficult conditions, when the grain ran out, they could not eat the dead pack animals.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @songbird

    Interesting theory but my guess, and it is only that, is that they would have eaten meat, or many of them anyway, if it was a choice between that and death. Whether their Muslim guards would have offered it to them is another question.

    , @Wokechoke
    @songbird

    Think of it as a word meaning "Indian Killer". Kills off civilized softies used to ambient heat and fine living. A word coined by austere Mountain Men.

    , @AP
    @songbird

    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/03/30/cornell-study-finds-some-people-may-be-genetically-programmed-to-be-vegetarians/



    Cornell University researchers have found a fascinating genetic variation that they said appears to have evolved in populations that favored vegetarian diets over hundreds of generations. The geography of the vegetarian allele is vast and includes people from India, Africa and parts of East Asia who are known to have green diets even today.
    Researcher Kaixiong Ye said that the vegetarian adaptation allows people to “efficiently process omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and convert them into compounds essential for early brain development.”

    Omega-3 is found in fish, whole grains, olive oil, fruits and vegetables, while omega-6 is found in beef, pork products and many packaged snack foods such as cookies, candies, cakes and chips, as well as in nuts and vegetable oils.
    Nutritionists believe that getting a good balance of these two types of fatty acids in the diet is essential to staying healthy. The body can’t produce these substances naturally, so it must get them from food.
    Omega-3 is anti-inflammatory and helps regulate metabolism, which affects a wide range of functions in the body. In recent years, supplements rich in omega-3 have been trendy, based on the idea that it may reduce risk of heart disease. (The Food and Drug Administration says the evidence supports this theory but isn’t conclusive.) Omega-6 contributes to inflammation and plays an important role in skin and hair growth, bone health and reproductive health. Inflammatory responses are essential to our survival. They help fight off infections and protect us from injury. But if the response is excessive, it can lead to all kinds of problems and may contribute to a higher risk of heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer's disease.

    Studies have suggested that humans evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids of 1:1 but that the Western diet has a ratio that is closer to 15 or 16:1. The Mediterranean diet, in contrast, is closer to having an equal balance of the two and is recommended by many doctors.

    But this new study, funded by the National Institutes of Health and the U.S. Department of Agriculture, shows that different people may need radically different ratios of the substances in their diet depending on their genes, and it supports the growing evidence against a one-size-fits-all approach to nutrition and for highly personalized advice.
    The existence of the vegetarian allele implies that, for people with this variation, straying from that diet — by eating a lot of red meat, for example — may make them more susceptible to inflammation, because their bodies were optimized for a different mix of inputs.
    The research, published Wednesday in the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution, involved two parts. The scientists first analyzed the frequencies of the vegetarian allele in 234 primarily vegetarian Indians and 311 Americans living today. They found the vegetarian allele in 68 percent of the Indians and 18 percent of the Americans. Then they analyzed information from the 1,000 Genomes Project — a database of global DNA — to calculate an estimate of the frequency of the vegetarian allele in far-flung populations around the world. The differences were striking: 70 percent of South Asians, 53 percent of Africans, 29 percent of East Asians and 17 percent of Europeans had the gene variation.

    Replies: @songbird

  107. @songbird
    @AP

    Not to sound like a revisionist on the expansion of Islam (I am not), but I do wonder if the name Hindu Kush might have been related to the fact that a lot of Hindus are vegetarians and on long journeys in difficult conditions, when the grain ran out, they could not eat the dead pack animals.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Wokechoke, @AP

    Interesting theory but my guess, and it is only that, is that they would have eaten meat, or many of them anyway, if it was a choice between that and death. Whether their Muslim guards would have offered it to them is another question.

  108. @songbird
    @AP

    Not to sound like a revisionist on the expansion of Islam (I am not), but I do wonder if the name Hindu Kush might have been related to the fact that a lot of Hindus are vegetarians and on long journeys in difficult conditions, when the grain ran out, they could not eat the dead pack animals.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Wokechoke, @AP

    Think of it as a word meaning “Indian Killer”. Kills off civilized softies used to ambient heat and fine living. A word coined by austere Mountain Men.

  109. @Wokechoke
    The collapse of liberal-democratic narratives about ww2 is the funniest part of the war.

    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht. Sweden wasn't really neutral and Finland, Romania, Hungary were actually pretty keen.

    That's not to mention fascists like Italy and Spain sending divisions into the USSR. The Poles, well they are Poles, a sui generis case of getting into wars they cannot win again and again.

    ww2 never ended as Charlie Manson zanily pointed out. But here, all the Germans needed to do was subordinate themselves to Anglo-Jewish power and then be given a free hand in the East with the Russian ethnics. what a neat trick.

    What result will the coming Russo-Chinese alliance produce though? the same defeat for Europe or the Balkanization of the resources of Russia?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Coconuts

    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht. Sweden wasn’t really neutral and Finland, Romania, Hungary were actually pretty keen.

    Junger’s Paris diary is fascinating just for what you can conclude that he does not out and out state.

    The French elite not only accepted the Nazis no questions asked they wanted to emulate them. They gladly handed over any Jews they asked for. (An accurate accounting would be interesting. It’s got to be closer to .1 than .9).
    The same seems to be true of Belgium and Holland. Getting into the SS was like getting into Harvard.

    I always thought Bohr was totally cut out of the loop on the western atom bomb program and one time I wrote something to that effect and utu went ballistic on me within minutes. I have always thought that was one of the crazier comments he wrote.

    Anyway the Nazis were not good guys. On the other hand they were fighting the commies who basically totally sucked and Roosevelt and Churchill were fools. Nobody ever gave a damn about (some poor) Jews.

  110. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    12th/13th centuries... Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity
     
    In the 16th/17th century. You can't say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    And the level of the 13th century literature like "Nibelungenlied".. it feels to me like reading something for children? http://mcllibrary.org/Nibelungenlied/adventure1.html


    Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries
     
    Although Granada and Alhambra was Nasrid until the end of the 15th century, with intellectual decline compared to golden years of Al-Andalus, but they still had more advanced engineering and even air conditioning systems compared to anywhere in Europe. Imagine this today, how strange it would be, where the Arab world can be more advanced in engineering, technology and more intellectually curious.

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @German_reader, @Yahya

    You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    I’m not an expert on these issues, but it seems to me quite likely that Europe by the 13th century was already in some ways technologically more advanced than Greco-Roman antiquity had been, e. g. widespread use of water power (also wind mills), or the beginnings of clock-making, also forms of economic organization and finance may already have been more complex (there were trading companies in antiquity, but iirc the monetary economy and the means for raising capital in advanced regions like northern Italy had surpassed ancient precedents by the 12th/13th centuries). And while much of it isn’t to my personal taste, Latin Europe in the high Middle Ages had a developed intellectual culture, and most importantly a dynamic one, with increasing use of literacy for administration, business etc. even among laymen.
    I can’t really go into greater depth on this now (would have to look many things up), but it’s definitely false that the entire period of 500-1500 was inferior in every way (regarding material culture, I won’t go into religious values or the like) to Greco-Roman antiquity. It may apply for the earlier centuries, but by 1200 or so it seems very doubtful to me.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    In L. Sprague de Camp's classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD, by a natural phenomenon when he is visiting the Pantheon. One of the innovations he introduces in order to try to fend off the collapse is double-entry bookkeeping, which was present in 13th century Italy.

    Of course, there is some that say that the Romans already had it, based on something Pliny the Elder said, which, however, I think is rather unclear.

    Replies: @S

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    We don't have to say in every way, but achievements of antiquity are not surpassed in the 12th century, most not until the 16th century under capitalism.

    Compared to the slave economy of the ancient world where income is created by unassisted labor, feudalism is using more capital. In terms of finance, there is also more advanced financial systems emerging by the second millennium including in the Muslim world.

    But you wrote "achievements of antiquity", not "basis of the economic system". And in standard concept of achievements of antiquity, of course, the feudal painting, sculpture, maths, science, logic, civil engineering, philosophy, writing, are not being surpassed in the 12th century, even though feudalism is a higher economic stage in the view of most economists.

    In the 15th century, classical sculpture level is becoming achieve in Italy (but not necessarily surpassed), while painting is beginning to achieve classical level in the 14th century Italy. But the R&D for these works was the ancient world, as Renaissance is advancing with help of the ancient world. Michelangelo is standing on the classical sculpture.

    Then in science 16th century there are Bacon, Galileo, who finally are able to develop become the ancient model or break from Aristotle. Galileo's advance is possible because of technological level developed in Netherland in terms of glass instruments. This is partly example of the scientific progress driven by the higher economic complexity in bourgeois capitalism.

    In terms of writing, 12th century writing European writing (outside the Arabic parts of Europe or some specialized discussion in the Church) will appear more like children's literature, in comparison to classical texts.

    With inspiration of those classical texts, then writing rapidly becomes more sophisticated in the Renaissance. However, for example, you would know with historical writing, that history is not at classical level until as late as the 18th century, where they are beginning again discussing about historical causation and reliability of sources like in 5th century Athens.

    Replies: @AP

  111. @songbird
    @AP

    Not to sound like a revisionist on the expansion of Islam (I am not), but I do wonder if the name Hindu Kush might have been related to the fact that a lot of Hindus are vegetarians and on long journeys in difficult conditions, when the grain ran out, they could not eat the dead pack animals.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Wokechoke, @AP

    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/03/30/cornell-study-finds-some-people-may-be-genetically-programmed-to-be-vegetarians/

    [MORE]

    Cornell University researchers have found a fascinating genetic variation that they said appears to have evolved in populations that favored vegetarian diets over hundreds of generations. The geography of the vegetarian allele is vast and includes people from India, Africa and parts of East Asia who are known to have green diets even today.
    Researcher Kaixiong Ye said that the vegetarian adaptation allows people to “efficiently process omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and convert them into compounds essential for early brain development.”

    Omega-3 is found in fish, whole grains, olive oil, fruits and vegetables, while omega-6 is found in beef, pork products and many packaged snack foods such as cookies, candies, cakes and chips, as well as in nuts and vegetable oils.
    Nutritionists believe that getting a good balance of these two types of fatty acids in the diet is essential to staying healthy. The body can’t produce these substances naturally, so it must get them from food.
    Omega-3 is anti-inflammatory and helps regulate metabolism, which affects a wide range of functions in the body. In recent years, supplements rich in omega-3 have been trendy, based on the idea that it may reduce risk of heart disease. (The Food and Drug Administration says the evidence supports this theory but isn’t conclusive.) Omega-6 contributes to inflammation and plays an important role in skin and hair growth, bone health and reproductive health. Inflammatory responses are essential to our survival. They help fight off infections and protect us from injury. But if the response is excessive, it can lead to all kinds of problems and may contribute to a higher risk of heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer’s disease.

    Studies have suggested that humans evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids of 1:1 but that the Western diet has a ratio that is closer to 15 or 16:1. The Mediterranean diet, in contrast, is closer to having an equal balance of the two and is recommended by many doctors.

    But this new study, funded by the National Institutes of Health and the U.S. Department of Agriculture, shows that different people may need radically different ratios of the substances in their diet depending on their genes, and it supports the growing evidence against a one-size-fits-all approach to nutrition and for highly personalized advice.
    The existence of the vegetarian allele implies that, for people with this variation, straying from that diet — by eating a lot of red meat, for example — may make them more susceptible to inflammation, because their bodies were optimized for a different mix of inputs.
    The research, published Wednesday in the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution, involved two parts. The scientists first analyzed the frequencies of the vegetarian allele in 234 primarily vegetarian Indians and 311 Americans living today. They found the vegetarian allele in 68 percent of the Indians and 18 percent of the Americans. Then they analyzed information from the 1,000 Genomes Project — a database of global DNA — to calculate an estimate of the frequency of the vegetarian allele in far-flung populations around the world. The differences were striking: 70 percent of South Asians, 53 percent of Africans, 29 percent of East Asians and 17 percent of Europeans had the gene variation.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat
     
    This is a point I have made when humorously comparing them to scifi author Larry Niven's alien race the Puppeteers, who are obligate vegetarians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson's_Puppeteers

    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years, though I know people who do.

    Replies: @AP

  112. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.
     
    I'm not an expert on these issues, but it seems to me quite likely that Europe by the 13th century was already in some ways technologically more advanced than Greco-Roman antiquity had been, e. g. widespread use of water power (also wind mills), or the beginnings of clock-making, also forms of economic organization and finance may already have been more complex (there were trading companies in antiquity, but iirc the monetary economy and the means for raising capital in advanced regions like northern Italy had surpassed ancient precedents by the 12th/13th centuries). And while much of it isn't to my personal taste, Latin Europe in the high Middle Ages had a developed intellectual culture, and most importantly a dynamic one, with increasing use of literacy for administration, business etc. even among laymen.
    I can't really go into greater depth on this now (would have to look many things up), but it's definitely false that the entire period of 500-1500 was inferior in every way (regarding material culture, I won't go into religious values or the like) to Greco-Roman antiquity. It may apply for the earlier centuries, but by 1200 or so it seems very doubtful to me.

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

    In L. Sprague de Camp’s classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD, by a natural phenomenon when he is visiting the Pantheon. One of the innovations he introduces in order to try to fend off the collapse is double-entry bookkeeping, which was present in 13th century Italy.

    Of course, there is some that say that the Romans already had it, based on something Pliny the Elder said, which, however, I think is rather unclear.

    • Thanks: German_reader
    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    In L. Sprague de Camp’s classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD...to try to fend off the collapse.
     
    It's an intriguing premise, though if such a thing were possible, that archeologist would have had his hands full. There were a lot of disasters all occurring nearly simultaneously at about that time. At least one medieval scholar thinks 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.

    The volcanic winter of 536 was the most severe and protracted episode of climatic cooling in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 2,000 years....The volcanic eruptions, accompanied by the Plague of Justinian, which began in 541, caused crop failures, famine, and millions of deaths and initiated the Late Antique Little Ice Age, which lasted from 536 to 660....Medieval scholar Michael McCormick has written that 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.
     
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536

    Replies: @songbird

  113. @AP
    @songbird

    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/03/30/cornell-study-finds-some-people-may-be-genetically-programmed-to-be-vegetarians/



    Cornell University researchers have found a fascinating genetic variation that they said appears to have evolved in populations that favored vegetarian diets over hundreds of generations. The geography of the vegetarian allele is vast and includes people from India, Africa and parts of East Asia who are known to have green diets even today.
    Researcher Kaixiong Ye said that the vegetarian adaptation allows people to “efficiently process omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and convert them into compounds essential for early brain development.”

    Omega-3 is found in fish, whole grains, olive oil, fruits and vegetables, while omega-6 is found in beef, pork products and many packaged snack foods such as cookies, candies, cakes and chips, as well as in nuts and vegetable oils.
    Nutritionists believe that getting a good balance of these two types of fatty acids in the diet is essential to staying healthy. The body can’t produce these substances naturally, so it must get them from food.
    Omega-3 is anti-inflammatory and helps regulate metabolism, which affects a wide range of functions in the body. In recent years, supplements rich in omega-3 have been trendy, based on the idea that it may reduce risk of heart disease. (The Food and Drug Administration says the evidence supports this theory but isn’t conclusive.) Omega-6 contributes to inflammation and plays an important role in skin and hair growth, bone health and reproductive health. Inflammatory responses are essential to our survival. They help fight off infections and protect us from injury. But if the response is excessive, it can lead to all kinds of problems and may contribute to a higher risk of heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer's disease.

    Studies have suggested that humans evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids of 1:1 but that the Western diet has a ratio that is closer to 15 or 16:1. The Mediterranean diet, in contrast, is closer to having an equal balance of the two and is recommended by many doctors.

    But this new study, funded by the National Institutes of Health and the U.S. Department of Agriculture, shows that different people may need radically different ratios of the substances in their diet depending on their genes, and it supports the growing evidence against a one-size-fits-all approach to nutrition and for highly personalized advice.
    The existence of the vegetarian allele implies that, for people with this variation, straying from that diet — by eating a lot of red meat, for example — may make them more susceptible to inflammation, because their bodies were optimized for a different mix of inputs.
    The research, published Wednesday in the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution, involved two parts. The scientists first analyzed the frequencies of the vegetarian allele in 234 primarily vegetarian Indians and 311 Americans living today. They found the vegetarian allele in 68 percent of the Indians and 18 percent of the Americans. Then they analyzed information from the 1,000 Genomes Project — a database of global DNA — to calculate an estimate of the frequency of the vegetarian allele in far-flung populations around the world. The differences were striking: 70 percent of South Asians, 53 percent of Africans, 29 percent of East Asians and 17 percent of Europeans had the gene variation.

    Replies: @songbird

    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat

    This is a point I have made when humorously comparing them to scifi author Larry Niven’s alien race the Puppeteers, who are obligate vegetarians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson’s_Puppeteers

    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years, though I know people who do.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird


    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years

     

    Steak tartare is great!

    Replies: @songbird

  114. @songbird
    @AP


    Indians apparently evolved in a way that supports their vegetarianism and makes it less healthy for them to eat meat
     
    This is a point I have made when humorously comparing them to scifi author Larry Niven's alien race the Puppeteers, who are obligate vegetarians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson's_Puppeteers

    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years, though I know people who do.

    Replies: @AP

    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years

    Steak tartare is great!

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    I think steak is relatively safer, but anytime you grind meat that is introducing more danger.

    Strange to think that when hamburger was introduced to America it was typically consumed raw.

    I'm probably a bit paranoid about it. You are probably worse off eating raw vegetables (which I also don't do.) But I suspect that that a simple fatality count would underplay the dangers of getting organ damage, or having other bad stuff happen to you.

    Conversely, I suppose I could be in the wrong, and eating everything well-done meat might be more dangerous, if it increases one's cancer risk.

    I suppose the bigger danger of eating in restaurants comes from the servers, rather than the cooking process.

  115. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    12th/13th centuries... Latin Europe began to surpass the achievements of antiquity
     
    In the 16th/17th century. You can't say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.

    And the level of the 13th century literature like "Nibelungenlied".. it feels to me like reading something for children? http://mcllibrary.org/Nibelungenlied/adventure1.html


    Islamic world became intellectually stagnant in the 12th/13th centuries
     
    Although Granada and Alhambra was Nasrid until the end of the 15th century, with intellectual decline compared to golden years of Al-Andalus, but they still had more advanced engineering and even air conditioning systems compared to anywhere in Europe. Imagine this today, how strange it would be, where the Arab world can be more advanced in engineering, technology and more intellectually curious.

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @German_reader, @Yahya

    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

    Well in the mid-20th century there was a great hope in the Arab world that “our” time had come and we would restore our position among the leading civilizations after unshackling ourselves from the muti-century long colonial occupation by Turks and Europeans. That by and large failed, as demonstrated by the fact that non-oil regions of the Arab world today lag almost every other major socio-political bloc in human development indices except perhaps India and sub-Saharan Africa. But the Arab world was not destined to fail. In fact, the 19th and 20th century saw a cultural renaissance called “The Nahda” (enlightenment in Arabic) in and around Egypt, Iraq, the Maghreb and the Levant (as usual, the Gulf did not contribute much to this cultural flowering).

    In the literary sphere, Egypt produced a Nobel laureate in the name of Naguib Mahfouz (Egyptian Muslim), and two great writers, one of whom was Taha Hussein (Egyptian Muslim), who wrote more than 60 books (including 6 novels) and 1,300 articles despite being blind after receiving faulty treatment for cophthalmia at the age of two. The other great writer was poet Ahmad Shawqi (Egyptian Muslim) who was born into a wealthy family of mixed Circassian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Greek roots; and of whom there is a statue in Rome. Other Egyptian authors from the time period listed in Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment include: Hafiz Ibrahim (Turco-Egyptian), Tawfiq al-Hakim (Turco-Egyptian) and Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad (Egyptian Muslim), Mohammed Hussein Heikal (Egyptian Muslim), Ibrahim al-Mazini (Egyptian Muslim), Muhammad al-Muwaylihi (Egyptian Muslim), Edwar al-Kharrat (Coptic Egyptian).

    The Levant produced the well-known author of “The Prophet” Khalil Gibran (Lebanese Christian), Mikhail Naimy (Lebanese Christian), Mahmoud Darwish (Palestinian Muslim), Jabra Ibrahim Jabra (Palestinian-Assyrian) and my favorite author Ameen Rihani (Lebanese Christian). Others include Nizar Qabbani (Syrian Muslim), Ghada al-Samman (Syrian Muslim), Emile Habibi (Palestinian Christian), May Ziadeh (Palestinian Christian), Khalil Beidas (Palestinian Christian), Ghassan Kanafani (Palestinian Muslim), Said Akl (Lebanese Christian). Notable authors from other regions of the Arab world include Jamil Sidqi al-Zahawi (Iraqi Muslim), Kateb Yacine (Algerian Muslim), Assia Djebar (Algerian Muslim), Mouloud Feraoun (Algerian Muslim), Mohamed Choukri (Moroccan Muslim), Abdul Rahman Munif (Saudi Arabian), Tayeb Salih (Sudanese Muslim).

    Among currently living authors, Elias Khoury (Lebanese Christian), Amin Maalouf (Lebanese Christian), Adonis (Syrian Alawite), Sonallah Ibrahim (Egyptian Muslim), Dunya Mikhail (Iraqi Christian), Laila Lalami (Moroccan Muslim), and Hanan al-Shaykh (Lebanese Muslim) stand out from the rest. (This is a good link on the 100 best Arabic books according to the Arab writers union: https://arablit.org/2010/04/23/the-best-100-arabic-books-according-to-the-arab-writers-union-1-10/)

    Since I already gave too many literary recommendations; if you are interested in Arab political thought I’d recommend Albert Hourani’s “Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age 1798-1939”, “Adrift: How Our World Lost Its Way” by Amin Maalouf, and “Being Arab” by Samir Kassir. Much of it deals with the decline of the Arab world relative to its own glorious past as well as the present day.

    The 20th century also saw the birth of Arab cinema in Egypt; which is the third oldest in the world. Some prominent (and not-so-prominent) Arab directors include Youssef Chahine (Egyptian Muslim), Shadi Abdel Salam (Egyptian Muslim), Terrence Malick (Assyrian Chrisitian), Elia Suleiman (Palestinian Christian), Hanny Abu-Assad (Palestinian Muslim), Rachid Bouchareb (Algerian Muslim), Ziad Doueiri (Lebanese Christian), Nadine Labaki (Lebanese Christian), Kaouther Ben Hania (Tunisian Muslim).

    11 Arabic movies were nominated for the Academy Awards’ Best International Feature Film:

    1. Z (Algerian-Greek – 1969)
    2. Le Bal (Algerian-Italian – 1983)
    3. Dust Of Life (Algerian – 1995)
    4. Paradise Now (Palestinian – 2005)
    5. Days Of Glory (Algerian – 2006)
    6. Outside The Law (Algerian – 2010)
    7. Omar (Palestinian – 2013)
    8. Theeb (Jordanian – 2015)
    9. The Insult (Lebanese – 2017)
    10. Capernaum (Lebanese – 2018)
    11. The Man Who Sold His Skin (Tunisian – 2021)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees_for_Best_International_Feature_Film#1940s

    The top 100 Arabic films complied by DIFF based on selections by 475 regional and international film critics, writers, novelists and academics: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064340433/.

    I may get to music in another post (I’ve discovered all sorts of obscure Arab composers and singers since I wrote a post on Arab music a few months ago. They are much better than most of the ones I listed).

    [MORE]

    In economic terms, the Middle Eastern portion of the Arab world was doing fairly well compared to Iran, Turkey, Brazil, and South Korea during much of the 20th century; and was roughly on par with Poland, Spain and Greece. North Africa lagged behind everyone else though.

    According to the Maddison project; in 1950 GDP per capita were as follows:

    1. Poland = 3,900
    2. Lebanon = 3,872
    3. Syria = 3,838
    4. Spain = 3,464
    5. Greece = 3,052
    6. Iran = 2,742
    7. Brazil = 2,236
    8. Iraq = 2,174
    9. Algeria = 2,176
    10. Turkey = 2,079
    11. Egypt = 1,451
    12. Korea = 998

    By 1960 the rankings stayed roughly the same, with Lebanon pulling ahead to No. 1:

    1. Lebanon = 5,812
    2. Poland = 5,125
    3. Spain = 5,037
    4. Greece = 5,015
    5. Syria = 4,819
    6. Iraq = 4,360
    7. Iran = 3,437
    8. Brazil = 3,398
    9. Algeria = 3,328
    10. Turkey = 3,041
    11. Egypt = 1,580
    12. Korea = 1,548

    In 1980, Lebanon falls behind due to civil war, Greece and Spain pull ahead, but Syria and Iraq remain ahead of Poland, Brazil, Turkey, Iran and Korea:

    1. Greece = 14,300
    2. Spain = 14,008
    3. Syria = 10,374
    4. Iraq = 10,165
    5. Poland = 9,149
    6. Brazil = 8,249
    7. Iran = 6,334
    8. Turkey = 6,070
    9. Korea = 6,064
    10. Algeria = 5,024
    11. Lebanon = 4,608
    12. Egypt = 3,298

    By 2000, every Arab country is now behind peer regions:

    1. Spain = 26,995
    2. Korea = 23,108
    3. Greece = 20,965
    4. Poland = 12,732
    5. Turkey = 11,904
    6. Brazil = 9,834
    7. Iran = 9,105
    8. Syria = 7,668
    9. Lebanon = 7,406
    10. Algeria = 6,835
    11. Egypt = 6,594
    12. Iraq = 3,649

    And it remains so for the next 20 years till the present day.

    • Thanks: Dmitry
    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
    @Yahya

    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What's your native tongue, if you don't mind me asking?

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @Dmitry
    @Yahya

    I will guess "renaissance" in the Arab world, if there will be a renaissance this century, will be in the Gulf, not in North Africa and Levant.

    Because of the vast oil money in the Gulf, is forcing the societies to technologically progress, even if it is currently mostly technological import from the West.

    In addition, Gulf monarchies are politically stable and relatively more competent. Their governments can be more competent than the world average in some ways, with one of the most sensible response to the coronavirus pandemic as an example. Their feudal system is running better than the secular dictatorships of many Arab countries, but also probably less incompetent than countries in the postsoviet space or Latin America. As a result, they are moving a lot of investment to R&D and education.

    While for North Africa/Levant, there is probably no fast development path. European/Turkish manufacturing could move to North Africa/Levant, but then even if successful, they will be going to middle trap like China/Turkey/Mexico.

    In the Levant, Egypt has discovered a lot of natural gas, but the income ($4 billion dollars in 2021) is very small relative to its growing population.

    Replies: @Yahya

  116. German_reader says:

    https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south-asia/sri-lanka-arrests-protest-leader-joseph-stalin

    COLOMBO (AFP) – A top Sri Lankan trade union leader in the forefront of protests that led to the ousting of Mr Gotabaya Rajapaksa from the presidency was arrested on Wednesday (Aug 3), witnesses and officials said.

    Mr Joseph Stalin, the secretary of the Sri Lanka Teachers’ Union, becomes the most senior activist to be arrested in a crackdown against protesters who forced Mr Rajapaksa to flee last month.

    Haha. Though admittedly there are even more absurd names in this world (iirc years ago there was something on German tv about an elderly black man in Namibia, whose father had apparently felt nostalgic for German rule in the 1930s and named his son Hitler).
    The general situation in Sri Lanka of course isn’t funny at all, but rather ominous.

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @German_reader


    Haha. Though admittedly there are even more absurd names in this world (iirc years ago there was something on German tv about an elderly black man in Namibia, whose father had apparently felt nostalgic for German rule in the 1930s and named his son Hitler).
     
    Sorry, WTF is your problem with Stalin?
    A good man, a generous and kind, docile man. Easily the moral superior of Harry Truman, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, any Polish closet-homo faux-Catholic top ranking politician, Jurgen Klinsman, Rudi Voller, Helmut Kohl, Baerbok-bitch, Churchill, Macron or any of these creeps.

    You put them in the same desperate security situation as the USSR.........and you have 100x worse murders and politically persecuted people than from Stalin. Entire foreign policy of USSR rooted in much the same pragmatism as Russian Empire policies ( I include Molotov-Ribbentrop in that - entirely pragmatic from Stalin)


    Before you start talking crap about GULAG and repressions.......except for 2 years when it was a bit higher, for all the rest of Stalin's rule, the incarceration rate in USSR was FAR lower than at any time in America of the last 30 years.

    All the lies about 1 or 2 million "shot dead" are just that - total BS.
    900k were sentenced to death , but the majority of those were sentences then reduced and not include death. There was about 250k shot dead from political repressions in Stalin's rule. Yes it's a huge number, but over 30 years, an entirely reasonable one. You have psychopathic Trotsky loyalists (with many friends in the west), the British giving 10s of 1000s of Rifles, millions of rounds of ammunition to the Finns and in Dagestan and probably several other places during the civil war, and 20 different wars going on in Russian Empire/USSR territory, the history of the west each 100 years committing invasion and acts of mass murder against Russians for the last 400 years.

    Look how the central Europeans got revenge on Germans resettled after WW2 - you telling me that in similar situation then wouldn't have political repressions easily killing far more than 230k shot dead?
    Without 1937-38, then Russia does not defeat fascist Nazi Germany

    The highest amount of incarcerated people was after the war ( understandably) but in 1947 Stalin abolished the death penalty.......a hugely generous act.

    As for "deaths in GULAG"........NOBODY died from policy of starvation in GULAG, reports of freezing to death hugely exaggerated. Most of Gulag deaths occur during WW2, when Nazi's in control of modern day Ukraine territory and therefore food supply.

    Replies: @German_reader

  117. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

    AP, man instead of making giant posts(the kind im about to make) this is how you get Indians. Instead of making posts with graphs, etc. This is what you should post

    This is much more effective. (yes they’re hitting on a painting).

    There’s plenty of memes about this how thirsty they are.

    • LOL: Barbarossa, AP
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Svidomyatheart

    https://www.capegazette.com/sites/capegazette/files/2016/01/field/image/IMG_5294.jpg

  118. @songbird
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Re: the Finnish PM: it is often said in HBD circles that women aren't evolved for decision-making. I guess it is kind of obvious that historically, we lived in a patriarchal society, where they were the wards of their fathers or brothers, until they married and became the wards of their husbands. But feminists would probably categorize that as women being shackled.

    IMO, to really appreciate the dramatic differences among the sexes, one need only consider the history of England - England which was one the first countries in Europe to develop. Back a few hundred years before the steamship (How many really? Three, four or five tops?), it seems like rape was really common, even among high status women, under escort. (Maybe, that is why, in Ireland, wives walked behind their husbands, well into the 1800s, so they could check the road ahead).

    Personally, I think that really highlights, how much they stayed at home and how little travel they did. Maybe, the Sikh has influenced my thoughts...

    BTW, I did finally catch War of the Arrows a while back. Thought it was a fun film. I intended to watch only the first half, one night, but ended up staying up to watch the whole thing.

    Replies: @AnonfromTN, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The ancient Vietnamese were matriarchal. They were martyrs against Han imperialism:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trưng_sisters

    The Inner Asians have a tradition of female holding high status. The only ever female Chinese emperor, Wu Zetian was part Xianbei (haplogroup N). She even had a harem of male concubines.

    Then late imperial China went too far in the other direction with the foot-binding and female infanticide. This visitor to England at the time extolled the gentleman character,

    The problem is I think toxic femininity, that combines the negative aspects of masculinity, without the courage, integrity, etc.

    War of the Arrows

    The artillerists and navy in Qing Invasion of Joseon were Han Chinese. The more I look into this, the more bogus the PRC narrative of “5000 years of never invaded anyone blah blah”

    This film depicts a Russo-Qing alliance against the Dzungars,

    • Thanks: songbird
  119. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    I think this discredited, permanently cursed in hell excrement claims to be a medic, without showing even the type of basic knowledge a porter in a hospital would know. I can’t be bothered to look it up, but multiple times this sociopathic f**kwit has proven to not know the distinction between HIV and AIDS ( an important distinction to know if visiting the army of whores in Lvov, although fortunately this subhuman retard has never been in this situation)

    Anyway, any sane person knows that rise in HIV in Russia is solely connected to intravenous drug use accelerated starting from the American war in Afghanistan that lead to Russia as a heroin/opium transit corridor. It has next to nothing to do with sexual morality, hence, as even a retard could deduce, by the end of the 1990’s the HIV rate in Russia was negligible but in the US it was FAR higher than in any western state. No surprise for ultra-high teenage pregnancy cesspit, liberal and gay-pride loving American idiots.

    On a “social morality” playing field i.e judging after the end of the wild 90’s for Russia, American HIV rate is about 25 times that of Russia you sick moron. LMAO

    Moscow is practically much safer than any big American city ( as are most of all the other major Russian cities, like Kazan).

    So a fantasist who can’t speak the language ,who gets hemorrhoids with these long shifts making psychologically disturbing numbers of posts on here every day as yourself…..claiming to be a “medic” makes an idiotically wrong statement about HIV in Russia that no medic would make, would almost have been certainly corrected on it before during the millions of fraudently “arguments” this bag of shit tries to initiate on here every minute…….still makes it. This is a combination of being pathologically dumb. and also the most lowlife troll possible.

    Oh yes,one more thing – the 19th and 26th of March Sundays in your fictitious church? Still no answer from this fantasist tramp? LMAO

  120. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

     

    Well in the mid-20th century there was a great hope in the Arab world that "our" time had come and we would restore our position among the leading civilizations after unshackling ourselves from the muti-century long colonial occupation by Turks and Europeans. That by and large failed, as demonstrated by the fact that non-oil regions of the Arab world today lag almost every other major socio-political bloc in human development indices except perhaps India and sub-Saharan Africa. But the Arab world was not destined to fail. In fact, the 19th and 20th century saw a cultural renaissance called "The Nahda" (enlightenment in Arabic) in and around Egypt, Iraq, the Maghreb and the Levant (as usual, the Gulf did not contribute much to this cultural flowering).

    In the literary sphere, Egypt produced a Nobel laureate in the name of Naguib Mahfouz (Egyptian Muslim), and two great writers, one of whom was Taha Hussein (Egyptian Muslim), who wrote more than 60 books (including 6 novels) and 1,300 articles despite being blind after receiving faulty treatment for cophthalmia at the age of two. The other great writer was poet Ahmad Shawqi (Egyptian Muslim) who was born into a wealthy family of mixed Circassian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Greek roots; and of whom there is a statue in Rome. Other Egyptian authors from the time period listed in Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment include: Hafiz Ibrahim (Turco-Egyptian), Tawfiq al-Hakim (Turco-Egyptian) and Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad (Egyptian Muslim), Mohammed Hussein Heikal (Egyptian Muslim), Ibrahim al-Mazini (Egyptian Muslim), Muhammad al-Muwaylihi (Egyptian Muslim), Edwar al-Kharrat (Coptic Egyptian).

    The Levant produced the well-known author of "The Prophet" Khalil Gibran (Lebanese Christian), Mikhail Naimy (Lebanese Christian), Mahmoud Darwish (Palestinian Muslim), Jabra Ibrahim Jabra (Palestinian-Assyrian) and my favorite author Ameen Rihani (Lebanese Christian). Others include Nizar Qabbani (Syrian Muslim), Ghada al-Samman (Syrian Muslim), Emile Habibi (Palestinian Christian), May Ziadeh (Palestinian Christian), Khalil Beidas (Palestinian Christian), Ghassan Kanafani (Palestinian Muslim), Said Akl (Lebanese Christian). Notable authors from other regions of the Arab world include Jamil Sidqi al-Zahawi (Iraqi Muslim), Kateb Yacine (Algerian Muslim), Assia Djebar (Algerian Muslim), Mouloud Feraoun (Algerian Muslim), Mohamed Choukri (Moroccan Muslim), Abdul Rahman Munif (Saudi Arabian), Tayeb Salih (Sudanese Muslim).

    Among currently living authors, Elias Khoury (Lebanese Christian), Amin Maalouf (Lebanese Christian), Adonis (Syrian Alawite), Sonallah Ibrahim (Egyptian Muslim), Dunya Mikhail (Iraqi Christian), Laila Lalami (Moroccan Muslim), and Hanan al-Shaykh (Lebanese Muslim) stand out from the rest. (This is a good link on the 100 best Arabic books according to the Arab writers union: https://arablit.org/2010/04/23/the-best-100-arabic-books-according-to-the-arab-writers-union-1-10/)

    Since I already gave too many literary recommendations; if you are interested in Arab political thought I'd recommend Albert Hourani's "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age 1798-1939", "Adrift: How Our World Lost Its Way" by Amin Maalouf, and "Being Arab" by Samir Kassir. Much of it deals with the decline of the Arab world relative to its own glorious past as well as the present day.

    The 20th century also saw the birth of Arab cinema in Egypt; which is the third oldest in the world. Some prominent (and not-so-prominent) Arab directors include Youssef Chahine (Egyptian Muslim), Shadi Abdel Salam (Egyptian Muslim), Terrence Malick (Assyrian Chrisitian), Elia Suleiman (Palestinian Christian), Hanny Abu-Assad (Palestinian Muslim), Rachid Bouchareb (Algerian Muslim), Ziad Doueiri (Lebanese Christian), Nadine Labaki (Lebanese Christian), Kaouther Ben Hania (Tunisian Muslim).

    11 Arabic movies were nominated for the Academy Awards' Best International Feature Film:

    1. Z (Algerian-Greek - 1969)
    2. Le Bal (Algerian-Italian - 1983)
    3. Dust Of Life (Algerian - 1995)
    4. Paradise Now (Palestinian - 2005)
    5. Days Of Glory (Algerian - 2006)
    6. Outside The Law (Algerian - 2010)
    7. Omar (Palestinian - 2013)
    8. Theeb (Jordanian - 2015)
    9. The Insult (Lebanese - 2017)
    10. Capernaum (Lebanese - 2018)
    11. The Man Who Sold His Skin (Tunisian - 2021)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees_for_Best_International_Feature_Film#1940s

    The top 100 Arabic films complied by DIFF based on selections by 475 regional and international film critics, writers, novelists and academics: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064340433/.

    I may get to music in another post (I've discovered all sorts of obscure Arab composers and singers since I wrote a post on Arab music a few months ago. They are much better than most of the ones I listed).



    In economic terms, the Middle Eastern portion of the Arab world was doing fairly well compared to Iran, Turkey, Brazil, and South Korea during much of the 20th century; and was roughly on par with Poland, Spain and Greece. North Africa lagged behind everyone else though.

    According to the Maddison project; in 1950 GDP per capita were as follows:

    1. Poland = 3,900
    2. Lebanon = 3,872
    3. Syria = 3,838
    4. Spain = 3,464
    5. Greece = 3,052
    6. Iran = 2,742
    7. Brazil = 2,236
    8. Iraq = 2,174
    9. Algeria = 2,176
    10. Turkey = 2,079
    11. Egypt = 1,451
    12. Korea = 998

    By 1960 the rankings stayed roughly the same, with Lebanon pulling ahead to No. 1:

    1. Lebanon = 5,812
    2. Poland = 5,125
    3. Spain = 5,037
    4. Greece = 5,015
    5. Syria = 4,819
    6. Iraq = 4,360
    7. Iran = 3,437
    8. Brazil = 3,398
    9. Algeria = 3,328
    10. Turkey = 3,041
    11. Egypt = 1,580
    12. Korea = 1,548

    In 1980, Lebanon falls behind due to civil war, Greece and Spain pull ahead, but Syria and Iraq remain ahead of Poland, Brazil, Turkey, Iran and Korea:

    1. Greece = 14,300
    2. Spain = 14,008
    3. Syria = 10,374
    4. Iraq = 10,165
    5. Poland = 9,149
    6. Brazil = 8,249
    7. Iran = 6,334
    8. Turkey = 6,070
    9. Korea = 6,064
    10. Algeria = 5,024
    11. Lebanon = 4,608
    12. Egypt = 3,298

    By 2000, every Arab country is now behind peer regions:

    1. Spain = 26,995
    2. Korea = 23,108
    3. Greece = 20,965
    4. Poland = 12,732
    5. Turkey = 11,904
    6. Brazil = 9,834
    7. Iran = 9,105
    8. Syria = 7,668
    9. Lebanon = 7,406
    10. Algeria = 6,835
    11. Egypt = 6,594
    12. Iraq = 3,649

    And it remains so for the next 20 years till the present day.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon, @Dmitry

    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What’s your native tongue, if you don’t mind me asking?

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Here Be Dragon


    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What’s your native tongue, if you don’t mind me asking?

     

    Arabic. My background should become clear from a brief perusal of my commenting archive. I haven't made much of an effort to conceal my identity or ethnicity.

    Also my close acquaintance with the "Muslim World" is limited to the Arab world and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.). I haven't the faintest clue about the goings on of Indonesia or Bangladesh. Which is one reason why I take exception to the conflating of the "Arab world" with "Muslim world". The two are not synonymous. If you look at my post above, you'd notice a lot of Christian names and figures. This is no coincidence. Arab Christians are an integral component of the Arab world owing to their relative intellectual capabilities and educational attainment.

    Terms like "Muslim world", when referring to the space between Morocco and Iraq, generally exclude Arab Christians, which is why I take exception to its usage. Some non-Arab Muslims (especially Pakistanis) conflate these terms on purpose to loop themselves into the prestige Arab world (most of the important events in Islamic history occurred here); but they played no meaningful role in constructing that history. Arab Christians did.

    Arabs only constitute 25% of the world's Muslims. The Arab world is thus not the Muslim world; and the Muslim world is not the Arab world.

    Replies: @AP, @A123, @Here Be Dragon

  121. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    In the 16th/17th century. You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.
     
    Demonstrably false, speaking as someone who's studied Antiquity thoroughly. Perhaps not by the 12th, but certainly by the 13th, and arguing that 14th century Italy or 15th century England was behind Antiquity in any meaningful way just becomes absurd.
    Don't have time to write an extensive reply until the weekend, but Europe by the high middle ages really was in most aspect a much more civilised, technologically advanced and humane place than the Greco-Roman world (including southern Europe, obviously any meaningful comparison with ancient northern Europe isn't possible).
    Though much of this can be argued that Antiquity, even today, is extremely idealised in the popular mind, compared with practically any other period in European history. A curious example of this is how during the Middle Ages was how new innovations were constantly referring to Classical antecedents, even when they were genuine technological or administrative novelties. The European Middle Ages were constantly innovating without knowing or acknowleging it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Feudalism was often more humane than the ancient slave societies and late medieval economy is preparing for the development of bourgeois capitalism, but in the art, literature, science, philosophy, mathematics, civil engineering, there was a long fall from achievements of antiquity.

    For example, compare the level of academic discipline, literary writing, representative art, mathematics.

    It’s only the 16th/17th century that anyone knows as much maths as Archimedes in the 3rd century BC.

    Science is based on Aristotle until the 16th century.

    It’s only in the 16th century after Michelangelo that sculpture is becoming as accurate as the classical sculpture.

    It’s only in the 18th/19th century, that historians will try to begin writing in an objective way like they have in 5th century Athens.

    It’s only in the 19th century, that the Greek logic studies are surpassed by Boole and De Morgan.

    idealised in the popular mind

    It’s less in the popular, but in the nerdy 1% of people which are reading the ancient texts. If you compare reading Thucydides with a 12th century writing like the Russian chronicles. Sophistication difference is like comparing a 19th century English writer from London with a writer of tribal history in 19th century Ethiopia.

    On the other hand, the ancient economies were slave owners, so by comparison morally they will be often more like 19th century Ethiopia for the majority of the people (and even 19th century capitalist London of Dickens, can appear like a moral utopia in comparison).

  122. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    You can’t say many important of antiquity has been surpassed in the 12th century.
     
    I'm not an expert on these issues, but it seems to me quite likely that Europe by the 13th century was already in some ways technologically more advanced than Greco-Roman antiquity had been, e. g. widespread use of water power (also wind mills), or the beginnings of clock-making, also forms of economic organization and finance may already have been more complex (there were trading companies in antiquity, but iirc the monetary economy and the means for raising capital in advanced regions like northern Italy had surpassed ancient precedents by the 12th/13th centuries). And while much of it isn't to my personal taste, Latin Europe in the high Middle Ages had a developed intellectual culture, and most importantly a dynamic one, with increasing use of literacy for administration, business etc. even among laymen.
    I can't really go into greater depth on this now (would have to look many things up), but it's definitely false that the entire period of 500-1500 was inferior in every way (regarding material culture, I won't go into religious values or the like) to Greco-Roman antiquity. It may apply for the earlier centuries, but by 1200 or so it seems very doubtful to me.

    Replies: @songbird, @Dmitry

    We don’t have to say in every way, but achievements of antiquity are not surpassed in the 12th century, most not until the 16th century under capitalism.

    Compared to the slave economy of the ancient world where income is created by unassisted labor, feudalism is using more capital. In terms of finance, there is also more advanced financial systems emerging by the second millennium including in the Muslim world.

    But you wrote “achievements of antiquity”, not “basis of the economic system”. And in standard concept of achievements of antiquity, of course, the feudal painting, sculpture, maths, science, logic, civil engineering, philosophy, writing, are not being surpassed in the 12th century, even though feudalism is a higher economic stage in the view of most economists.

    In the 15th century, classical sculpture level is becoming achieve in Italy (but not necessarily surpassed), while painting is beginning to achieve classical level in the 14th century Italy. But the R&D for these works was the ancient world, as Renaissance is advancing with help of the ancient world. Michelangelo is standing on the classical sculpture.

    Then in science 16th century there are Bacon, Galileo, who finally are able to develop become the ancient model or break from Aristotle. Galileo’s advance is possible because of technological level developed in Netherland in terms of glass instruments. This is partly example of the scientific progress driven by the higher economic complexity in bourgeois capitalism.

    In terms of writing, 12th century writing European writing (outside the Arabic parts of Europe or some specialized discussion in the Church) will appear more like children’s literature, in comparison to classical texts.

    With inspiration of those classical texts, then writing rapidly becomes more sophisticated in the Renaissance. However, for example, you would know with historical writing, that history is not at classical level until as late as the 18th century, where they are beginning again discussing about historical causation and reliability of sources like in 5th century Athens.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    And in standard concept of achievements of antiquity, of course, the feudal painting, sculpture, maths, science, logic, civil engineering, philosophy, writing, are not being surpassed in the 12th century
     
    In terms of civil engineering and architecture, medieval Europeans by the end of the 12th century (or at least the 13th century, which was still before the Renaissance) had surpassed antiquity in various ways. Most of these are from Europe:

    https://www.medievalists.net/2020/09/medieval-megaprojects/

    Sophisticated watermills and windmills harnessed natural energy, creation of canals, glass technology, etc. They also improved upon agricultural techniques and plow technology which allowed for largescale population growth in colder climates. There were significant improvements in iron production and mining technology. Weapons of course had also become far more advanced - Europeans invented arched saddles which made shock cavalry possible, created more sophisticated armor, siege engines, etc. I don't think that Roman roads were surpassed though. Overall, the Medieval use of the natural world was probably more sophisticated than had been the case with the the Ancients.

    Gothic architecture used technological advances such as flying buttresses and ribbed vaulting that enabled unprecedented height and space with thinner walls and huge windows. The tower at Lincoln Cathedral, built in 1311, was the tallest building in the world until the construction of the Eiffel Tower. Medieval architecture was both more advanced and very different from Classical architecture, the fruit of a new civilizational type. I understand medievalists who lament its abandonment during the Renaissance, when copies from ancient forms were preferred, a sort of betrayal of native traditions.

    http://www.athenapub.com/AR/14gothic-architecture.htm



    "The two main structural innovations of Gothic architecture were pointed arches and ogival or ribbed vaulting (Bony 1983). By the 12th century, architects realized the superiority of the groined vault compared to the barrel vault and started to add ribs, which were used to support the weight of the vault. Cross-ribbed vaulting functions in much the same manner as plain groined vaulting, except that it is reinforced with ribs, and can be made much thinner. The vault uses a diagonally reinforced arch resting on thin pillars, permitting the walls to be hollowed out (and thus, filled with windows), while also allowing the vaults to extend higher. At Amiens, for example, the introduction of an extra transverse rib between the diagonal ribs of the vault allowed for a lighter and more elevated interior. Such light, skeletal construction employing cross ribbed-vaults and other thin carrying structures (interior columns, exterior flying buttresses), replaced the massiveness of Romanesque vaults. This had the revolutionary effect of opening up the interior space of a large building such as a church. As the Gothic era progressed, vaulting became increasing complex and saw the development of more varied forms such as the quatri-partite vault and the sexpartite vault. Slender columns and stained glass windows also gave the church a more spacious and heightened effect.."

    The ancients might not have been impressed by medieval literature or sculpture, but would probably would have been impressed by Gothic architecture (though it would be alien to them):

    https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190415161946-04-notre-dame-architecture-full-169.jpg
  123. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    And now the Arab world has been having about 800 years of decline, with no indicator the patient will improve anytime soon. Perhaps in several centuries we can hope expect the beginning of a renaissance.

     

    Well in the mid-20th century there was a great hope in the Arab world that "our" time had come and we would restore our position among the leading civilizations after unshackling ourselves from the muti-century long colonial occupation by Turks and Europeans. That by and large failed, as demonstrated by the fact that non-oil regions of the Arab world today lag almost every other major socio-political bloc in human development indices except perhaps India and sub-Saharan Africa. But the Arab world was not destined to fail. In fact, the 19th and 20th century saw a cultural renaissance called "The Nahda" (enlightenment in Arabic) in and around Egypt, Iraq, the Maghreb and the Levant (as usual, the Gulf did not contribute much to this cultural flowering).

    In the literary sphere, Egypt produced a Nobel laureate in the name of Naguib Mahfouz (Egyptian Muslim), and two great writers, one of whom was Taha Hussein (Egyptian Muslim), who wrote more than 60 books (including 6 novels) and 1,300 articles despite being blind after receiving faulty treatment for cophthalmia at the age of two. The other great writer was poet Ahmad Shawqi (Egyptian Muslim) who was born into a wealthy family of mixed Circassian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Greek roots; and of whom there is a statue in Rome. Other Egyptian authors from the time period listed in Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment include: Hafiz Ibrahim (Turco-Egyptian), Tawfiq al-Hakim (Turco-Egyptian) and Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad (Egyptian Muslim), Mohammed Hussein Heikal (Egyptian Muslim), Ibrahim al-Mazini (Egyptian Muslim), Muhammad al-Muwaylihi (Egyptian Muslim), Edwar al-Kharrat (Coptic Egyptian).

    The Levant produced the well-known author of "The Prophet" Khalil Gibran (Lebanese Christian), Mikhail Naimy (Lebanese Christian), Mahmoud Darwish (Palestinian Muslim), Jabra Ibrahim Jabra (Palestinian-Assyrian) and my favorite author Ameen Rihani (Lebanese Christian). Others include Nizar Qabbani (Syrian Muslim), Ghada al-Samman (Syrian Muslim), Emile Habibi (Palestinian Christian), May Ziadeh (Palestinian Christian), Khalil Beidas (Palestinian Christian), Ghassan Kanafani (Palestinian Muslim), Said Akl (Lebanese Christian). Notable authors from other regions of the Arab world include Jamil Sidqi al-Zahawi (Iraqi Muslim), Kateb Yacine (Algerian Muslim), Assia Djebar (Algerian Muslim), Mouloud Feraoun (Algerian Muslim), Mohamed Choukri (Moroccan Muslim), Abdul Rahman Munif (Saudi Arabian), Tayeb Salih (Sudanese Muslim).

    Among currently living authors, Elias Khoury (Lebanese Christian), Amin Maalouf (Lebanese Christian), Adonis (Syrian Alawite), Sonallah Ibrahim (Egyptian Muslim), Dunya Mikhail (Iraqi Christian), Laila Lalami (Moroccan Muslim), and Hanan al-Shaykh (Lebanese Muslim) stand out from the rest. (This is a good link on the 100 best Arabic books according to the Arab writers union: https://arablit.org/2010/04/23/the-best-100-arabic-books-according-to-the-arab-writers-union-1-10/)

    Since I already gave too many literary recommendations; if you are interested in Arab political thought I'd recommend Albert Hourani's "Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age 1798-1939", "Adrift: How Our World Lost Its Way" by Amin Maalouf, and "Being Arab" by Samir Kassir. Much of it deals with the decline of the Arab world relative to its own glorious past as well as the present day.

    The 20th century also saw the birth of Arab cinema in Egypt; which is the third oldest in the world. Some prominent (and not-so-prominent) Arab directors include Youssef Chahine (Egyptian Muslim), Shadi Abdel Salam (Egyptian Muslim), Terrence Malick (Assyrian Chrisitian), Elia Suleiman (Palestinian Christian), Hanny Abu-Assad (Palestinian Muslim), Rachid Bouchareb (Algerian Muslim), Ziad Doueiri (Lebanese Christian), Nadine Labaki (Lebanese Christian), Kaouther Ben Hania (Tunisian Muslim).

    11 Arabic movies were nominated for the Academy Awards' Best International Feature Film:

    1. Z (Algerian-Greek - 1969)
    2. Le Bal (Algerian-Italian - 1983)
    3. Dust Of Life (Algerian - 1995)
    4. Paradise Now (Palestinian - 2005)
    5. Days Of Glory (Algerian - 2006)
    6. Outside The Law (Algerian - 2010)
    7. Omar (Palestinian - 2013)
    8. Theeb (Jordanian - 2015)
    9. The Insult (Lebanese - 2017)
    10. Capernaum (Lebanese - 2018)
    11. The Man Who Sold His Skin (Tunisian - 2021)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Academy_Award_winners_and_nominees_for_Best_International_Feature_Film#1940s

    The top 100 Arabic films complied by DIFF based on selections by 475 regional and international film critics, writers, novelists and academics: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064340433/.

    I may get to music in another post (I've discovered all sorts of obscure Arab composers and singers since I wrote a post on Arab music a few months ago. They are much better than most of the ones I listed).



    In economic terms, the Middle Eastern portion of the Arab world was doing fairly well compared to Iran, Turkey, Brazil, and South Korea during much of the 20th century; and was roughly on par with Poland, Spain and Greece. North Africa lagged behind everyone else though.

    According to the Maddison project; in 1950 GDP per capita were as follows:

    1. Poland = 3,900
    2. Lebanon = 3,872
    3. Syria = 3,838
    4. Spain = 3,464
    5. Greece = 3,052
    6. Iran = 2,742
    7. Brazil = 2,236
    8. Iraq = 2,174
    9. Algeria = 2,176
    10. Turkey = 2,079
    11. Egypt = 1,451
    12. Korea = 998

    By 1960 the rankings stayed roughly the same, with Lebanon pulling ahead to No. 1:

    1. Lebanon = 5,812
    2. Poland = 5,125
    3. Spain = 5,037
    4. Greece = 5,015
    5. Syria = 4,819
    6. Iraq = 4,360
    7. Iran = 3,437
    8. Brazil = 3,398
    9. Algeria = 3,328
    10. Turkey = 3,041
    11. Egypt = 1,580
    12. Korea = 1,548

    In 1980, Lebanon falls behind due to civil war, Greece and Spain pull ahead, but Syria and Iraq remain ahead of Poland, Brazil, Turkey, Iran and Korea:

    1. Greece = 14,300
    2. Spain = 14,008
    3. Syria = 10,374
    4. Iraq = 10,165
    5. Poland = 9,149
    6. Brazil = 8,249
    7. Iran = 6,334
    8. Turkey = 6,070
    9. Korea = 6,064
    10. Algeria = 5,024
    11. Lebanon = 4,608
    12. Egypt = 3,298

    By 2000, every Arab country is now behind peer regions:

    1. Spain = 26,995
    2. Korea = 23,108
    3. Greece = 20,965
    4. Poland = 12,732
    5. Turkey = 11,904
    6. Brazil = 9,834
    7. Iran = 9,105
    8. Syria = 7,668
    9. Lebanon = 7,406
    10. Algeria = 6,835
    11. Egypt = 6,594
    12. Iraq = 3,649

    And it remains so for the next 20 years till the present day.

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon, @Dmitry

    I will guess “renaissance” in the Arab world, if there will be a renaissance this century, will be in the Gulf, not in North Africa and Levant.

    Because of the vast oil money in the Gulf, is forcing the societies to technologically progress, even if it is currently mostly technological import from the West.

    In addition, Gulf monarchies are politically stable and relatively more competent. Their governments can be more competent than the world average in some ways, with one of the most sensible response to the coronavirus pandemic as an example. Their feudal system is running better than the secular dictatorships of many Arab countries, but also probably less incompetent than countries in the postsoviet space or Latin America. As a result, they are moving a lot of investment to R&D and education.

    While for North Africa/Levant, there is probably no fast development path. European/Turkish manufacturing could move to North Africa/Levant, but then even if successful, they will be going to middle trap like China/Turkey/Mexico.

    In the Levant, Egypt has discovered a lot of natural gas, but the income (\$4 billion dollars in 2021) is very small relative to its growing population.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I will guess “renaissance” in the Arab world, if there will be a renaissance this century, will be in the Gulf, not in North Africa and Levant. Because of the vast oil money in the Gulf, is forcing the societies to technologically progress, even if it is currently mostly technological import from the West.

     

    I've already demonstrated to you multiple times that cultural production remains centered around the traditional civilizational areas of the Arab world (Egypt, Levant, Maghreb, Iraq). The gulf is a cultural desert in both relative and absolute terms. It's been that way since antiquity. I don’t think this will change in the future. It doesn’t matter how technologically advanced they are. Gulf states have already been at the top of the global wealth rankings for a few decades now; yet they haven't demonstrated the capacity to create any meaningful cultural goods other than some primitive sword dancing (which is cool, but not terribly sophisticated). I have searched in vain for any sign of cultural sophistication coming from the area; to no effect. Yes there are a few exceptions like the above mentioned Abdel-Rahman Munif, and perhaps Ghazi Abdul Rahman Al Gosaibi - but that's it. Nothing else. Total wasteland.

    Just look at the list of Arabic films nominated for the Academy Awards I posted above. Not a single one came from the Gulf. Arab cinema has been kicking into gear over the past decade (if you notice the dates of the nominations, 80% of them come from 2005 onwards); but all of them were produced by the Levant and Maghreb (Egypt oddly did not get nominated at all, even though it pioneered and dominates Arab cinema the same way Hollywood dominated anglo/world cinema). You'll see in my post below the same holding true for Arabic music. Also recall my post on Arab scientists (https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5111913); only one scientist of note came from the Gulf.

    Anyway, onto Arabic music. In my tireless quest to discover and promote Arabic music; I've looked through every nook and cranny in the vast Arab world for signs of musical quality, and found the following composers and singers. Since I'm not an expert nor do I have any formal degree of musical training; I'm incapable of assessing their quality beyond what my ears tell me ("i.e. does it sound good or not"). But you seem to possess some degree of knowledge of music theory, so I'd appreciate if you could opine on any piece below that happens to catch your attention.

    Top Classical Composers:

    • Sherif Mohie El-Din (Egyptian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt0jssBV61U&list=PLk4jQWJwkElSVf3QA7z9tsb0matN1fsx-&index=1&ab_channel=SeifElDinSherif
    • Gamal Abdel-Rehim (Egyptian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teN8v4Zg73k&list=PLk4jQWJwkElR3bbnjYREVBBmoITI3xYC5&index=1&t=209s&ab_channel=Czeloth-CsetenyiGyula
    • Aziz El-Shawan (Coptic Egyptian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXUsT0S2HJ4&list=PLk4jQWJwkElQFOgWFzR9y6NQJdOOQ7j9z&index=1&t=1225s&ab_channel=MohamedSaleh
    • Nizar El-Khater (Palestinian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbvLMTsmLmw&list=PLk4jQWJwkElQvQoecIsS_ffNi5jzMEBTN&index=1&ab_channel=TheArabJewishOrchestra
    • Rabih Abou Khalil (Lebanese Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXl_WCaOXUA&list=OLAK5uy_ld0lnHynNytYKQpco1KrP-qedbT6EY2Tc&index=5&ab_channel=RabihAbou-Khalil-Topic
    • Malek Jandali (Syrian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ESVh54WXE&list=OLAK5uy_nB4qSEQoPBvOQGCPB1YBDGwYr_8Vjmlg8&index=5&ab_channel=MalekJandali
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Oud Composers:

    • Munir Bashir (Assyrian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS8O0TusvAQ&t=957s&ab_channel=WorldWholeMusic
    • Ahmad El-Khatib (Iraqi Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9Dc-Djwug&list=PLN2FzUv4m5bk4y-l9iD_pxjuUJ0prcZga&index=1&ab_channel=AhmadAl-Khatib
    • Nabil Hilaneh (Syrian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBeB0TAcDj8&ab_channel=chiarasomajni
    • Michael Ibrahim (Syrian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG4r6u2wtkg&ab_channel=NationalArabOrchestra
    • Simon Shaheen (Palestinian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0UgRMFe3oo&ab_channel=JafraProductions%D8%AC%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D8%A5%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%AC
    • Joseph Tawadros (Coptic Egyptian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlbbX7x0aWM&list=OLAK5uy_l0UjMGOaIavWlbao90Joyr3dIyWxQdqQg&index=11&ab_channel=JosephTawadros-Topic
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Maghrebi Composers:

    • Mustapha Skandarani (Algerian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uKVNqQqb2Q&t=1498s&ab_channel=cgoroo
    • Mohamed Iguerbouchen (Algerian Muslim) = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m50wzM7Mq1c&list=PLy84SxZnt-CrTsdg_XMbvYssGxIOU5Qc1&ab_channel=Eljazairelmahroussa
    • Mohammed Weld El Kourd (Algerian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tJQ3YozVqo&list=OLAK5uy_mNSWLxxMLA8z9cm7qTsqb8W5zHT0qdS8E&ab_channel=MohamedElKourd-Topic
    • Maurice El-Medioni (Algerian Jewish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I6kPjjz8EM
    • Anouar Brahem (Tunisian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9rF87XYmwQ&ab_channel=AnouarBrahem
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Orchestras:

    • National Arab Orchestra (Egypto-Levantine): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNFUb2Suv4&ab_channel=NationalArabOrchestra
    • Selecteum des Arts et des Sciences CCU (Lebanese): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyyGggwswps&ab_channel=SelecteumdesArtsetdesSciencesCCU
    • Gary Bertini Israeli Choir (Israeli): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdOcTFX6vm0&list=RDQdOcTFX6vm0&start_radio=1&ab_channel=TheGaryBertiniIsraeliChoir%7C%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99
    • Ornina Syrian Orchestra (Syrian): https://youtu.be/A-M09-6hcvs
    • Ensemble Hewar (Syrian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQ9OvBUkzQ&list=OLAK5uy_kID7OMVvuWPDT6vEQ9pZ1GGfWSd5aei7o&index=9&ab_channel=Hewar-Topic
    • Saint Epherem Patriarchal Choir (Syriac): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbqUY3I5WA&ab_channel=St.EphremPatriarchalChoir
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Singers:

    • Umm Kulthum (Egyptian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z8LvG5tfOE&t=692s&ab_channel=UmmKulthum-%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%83%D9%84%D8%AB%D9%88%D9%85
    • Nai Barghouti (Palestinian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3DTilr4wcc&t=121s&ab_channel=AmsterdamsAndalusischOrkest
    • Lamia Yared (Lebanese Muslim): https://youtu.be/EbWuBcLvF0E
    • Julia Boutros (Lebanese Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_GONcl031E&t=3389s&ab_channel=%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
    • Fadia Al-Haj (Lebanese Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxTxantW1Jo&list=OLAK5uy_lauNmgmZxI4ba-tzmdycwH_aUTJX-dVs8&index=14&ab_channel=FadiaTombel-Hage-Topic
    • Faia Younan (Assyrian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp92_VtsRQ&ab_channel=FaiaYounan%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%86
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Arabic Classical Composers:

    • Walid Al-Hajjar (Syrian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfS-nbc6FDA&list=PLTTBBItxqRbUHrmwIMJDQos_VcfcxDxIh&index=2&ab_channel=FawazDabbaghie
    • Dia Succari (Syrian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmiIW0CQQxk&ab_channel=zinaasfour
    • Solhi Al-Wadi (Iraqi Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4mYYPiXrqY&ab_channel=HamsaAl-WadiJuris
    • Abu Bakr Khairat (Egyptian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoLKGLlUx-0&ab_channel=ShaimaaAshour
    • Halim El-Dabh (Coptic Egyptian): https://youtu.be/bKrl_shaaeU
    Zaid Jabri (Syrian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1deEuONXAms&list=OLAK5uy_kUqCqdA53DyBFDjBxuyf4StIGimFyTB1M&index=13&ab_channel=KinanAzmeh-Topic
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Arabic Pianists:

    • Tatiana Primak Khoury (Lebanese-Ukrainian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5QOTlZA9yo&list=PL88FE06F53BCD6012&index=4&ab_channel=TatianaPrimakKhoury
    • Beatrice Ohanessian (Iraqi-Armenian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KyCzX-exws&t=310s&ab_channel=a1s2d3f4g5q1w2e3
    • Marouan Benabdallah (Moroccan Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0PKWnoAa74&ab_channel=NabilBenabdeljalil
    • Tala Tatunji (Jordanian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVHMyiAGGVg&ab_channel=TalaTutunji
    • Riyad Nicolas (Syrian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Vka8i_JPs&list=PLthyyBoG7EydFDXZFTxohBkmcBrFXTDsZ&index=2&ab_channel=RiyadNicolas

    Replies: @Dmitry

  124. @Svidomyatheart
    @AP

    AP, man instead of making giant posts(the kind im about to make) this is how you get Indians. Instead of making posts with graphs, etc. This is what you should post


    This is much more effective. (yes they're hitting on a painting).

    There's plenty of memes about this how thirsty they are.

    https://i.imgur.com/KxqJdze.jpg

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  125. @Dmitry
    @Yahya

    I will guess "renaissance" in the Arab world, if there will be a renaissance this century, will be in the Gulf, not in North Africa and Levant.

    Because of the vast oil money in the Gulf, is forcing the societies to technologically progress, even if it is currently mostly technological import from the West.

    In addition, Gulf monarchies are politically stable and relatively more competent. Their governments can be more competent than the world average in some ways, with one of the most sensible response to the coronavirus pandemic as an example. Their feudal system is running better than the secular dictatorships of many Arab countries, but also probably less incompetent than countries in the postsoviet space or Latin America. As a result, they are moving a lot of investment to R&D and education.

    While for North Africa/Levant, there is probably no fast development path. European/Turkish manufacturing could move to North Africa/Levant, but then even if successful, they will be going to middle trap like China/Turkey/Mexico.

    In the Levant, Egypt has discovered a lot of natural gas, but the income ($4 billion dollars in 2021) is very small relative to its growing population.

    Replies: @Yahya

    I will guess “renaissance” in the Arab world, if there will be a renaissance this century, will be in the Gulf, not in North Africa and Levant. Because of the vast oil money in the Gulf, is forcing the societies to technologically progress, even if it is currently mostly technological import from the West.

    I’ve already demonstrated to you multiple times that cultural production remains centered around the traditional civilizational areas of the Arab world (Egypt, Levant, Maghreb, Iraq). The gulf is a cultural desert in both relative and absolute terms. It’s been that way since antiquity. I don’t think this will change in the future. It doesn’t matter how technologically advanced they are. Gulf states have already been at the top of the global wealth rankings for a few decades now; yet they haven’t demonstrated the capacity to create any meaningful cultural goods other than some primitive sword dancing (which is cool, but not terribly sophisticated). I have searched in vain for any sign of cultural sophistication coming from the area; to no effect. Yes there are a few exceptions like the above mentioned Abdel-Rahman Munif, and perhaps Ghazi Abdul Rahman Al Gosaibi – but that’s it. Nothing else. Total wasteland.

    Just look at the list of Arabic films nominated for the Academy Awards I posted above. Not a single one came from the Gulf. Arab cinema has been kicking into gear over the past decade (if you notice the dates of the nominations, 80% of them come from 2005 onwards); but all of them were produced by the Levant and Maghreb (Egypt oddly did not get nominated at all, even though it pioneered and dominates Arab cinema the same way Hollywood dominated anglo/world cinema). You’ll see in my post below the same holding true for Arabic music. Also recall my post on Arab scientists (https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5111913); only one scientist of note came from the Gulf.

    Anyway, onto Arabic music. In my tireless quest to discover and promote Arabic music; I’ve looked through every nook and cranny in the vast Arab world for signs of musical quality, and found the following composers and singers. Since I’m not an expert nor do I have any formal degree of musical training; I’m incapable of assessing their quality beyond what my ears tell me (“i.e. does it sound good or not”). But you seem to possess some degree of knowledge of music theory, so I’d appreciate if you could opine on any piece below that happens to catch your attention.

    [MORE]

    Top Classical Composers:

    • Sherif Mohie El-Din (Egyptian Muslim):

    • Gamal Abdel-Rehim (Egyptian Muslim):

    • Aziz El-Shawan (Coptic Egyptian):

    • Nizar El-Khater (Palestinian Muslim):

    • Rabih Abou Khalil (Lebanese Christian):

    • Malek Jandali (Syrian Muslim):

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Oud Composers:

    • Munir Bashir (Assyrian Christian):

    • Ahmad El-Khatib (Iraqi Muslim):

    • Nabil Hilaneh (Syrian Muslim):

    • Michael Ibrahim (Syrian Christian):

    • Simon Shaheen (Palestinian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0UgRMFe3oo&ab_channel=JafraProductions%D8%AC%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D8%A5%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%AC
    • Joseph Tawadros (Coptic Egyptian):

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Maghrebi Composers:

    • Mustapha Skandarani (Algerian Muslim):

    • Mohamed Iguerbouchen (Algerian Muslim) =

    • Mohammed Weld El Kourd (Algerian Muslim):

    • Maurice El-Medioni (Algerian Jewish):

    • Anouar Brahem (Tunisian Muslim):

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Orchestras:

    • National Arab Orchestra (Egypto-Levantine):

    • Selecteum des Arts et des Sciences CCU (Lebanese):

    • Gary Bertini Israeli Choir (Israeli): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdOcTFX6vm0&list=RDQdOcTFX6vm0&start_radio=1&ab_channel=TheGaryBertiniIsraeliChoir%7C%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99
    • Ornina Syrian Orchestra (Syrian):

    • Ensemble Hewar (Syrian):

    • Saint Epherem Patriarchal Choir (Syriac): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbqUY3I5WA&ab_channel=St.EphremPatriarchalChoir
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Top Singers:

    • Umm Kulthum (Egyptian Muslim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z8LvG5tfOE&t=692s&ab_channel=UmmKulthum-%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%83%D9%84%D8%AB%D9%88%D9%85
    • Nai Barghouti (Palestinian Muslim):

    • Lamia Yared (Lebanese Muslim):

    • Julia Boutros (Lebanese Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_GONcl031E&t=3389s&ab_channel=%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
    • Fadia Al-Haj (Lebanese Christian):

    • Faia Younan (Assyrian Christian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp92_VtsRQ&ab_channel=FaiaYounan%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%86
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Arabic Classical Composers:

    • Walid Al-Hajjar (Syrian Muslim):

    • Dia Succari (Syrian Muslim):

    • Solhi Al-Wadi (Iraqi Muslim):

    • Abu Bakr Khairat (Egyptian Muslim):

    • Halim El-Dabh (Coptic Egyptian):

    Zaid Jabri (Syrian Muslim):

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    Arabic Pianists:

    • Tatiana Primak Khoury (Lebanese-Ukrainian):

    • Beatrice Ohanessian (Iraqi-Armenian):

    • Marouan Benabdallah (Moroccan Muslim):

    • Tala Tatunji (Jordanian Christian):

    • Riyad Nicolas (Syrian Christian):

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    gulf is a cultural desert
     
    Sure Gulf Arab countries can like in situation as China today, with lack of culture production.

    There is a lot of political repression, but the investment in art, education, will likely have to follow economic development.

    What will wealthy people spend their money for in the long run historically? In some few generations, the children in the wealthy Arab countries would be going to art schools, film schools etc. You can see already in UAE or Qatar there is a fashion for building opera houses.

    Many talented people from the poor Arab countries will likely go to Gulf for working opportunities. The cultural people will move to follow the money, if assuming the countries in the Gulf do not begin to collapse.


    Arab world (Egypt, Levant, Maghreb, Iraq)

     

    Iraq is part of the Gulf region though.

    There can be talented people, but on the state level many or most of the non-Gulf Arab countries have been going backwards.

    Until the 1970s, Egypt was leader of the Arab world, but the economy power moved to the Gulf.

    In the Levant, many countries have been de-evolving, if you describe the events of this century.

    I don't understand how there would be a rebirth of the golden age of Islamic culture with such a kind of stagnation in the low (or lower middle, perhaps in World Bank) economy, where they can rest lower than even some postsoviet countries.

    It can seem like a parody of historical materialism, but where is the money for the renaissance? You might need Medicis.
    https://i.imgur.com/OE4AnWI.jpg


    I’d appreciate if you could opine on any piece below that happens to catch your attention.

     

    Thanks I will listen to them.

    “Muslim world”, when referring to the space between Morocco and Iraq, generally exclude Arab Christians, which is why I take exception to its usage. Some non-Arab Muslims (especially Pakistanis) conflate these terms on purpose to loop themselves into the prestige Arab

     

    Islam is an Arab creation and still center of the cultural prestige of Arabs in front of 1,6 billion Muslims.

    But it also looks like Islam has, with historical irony, been one vector for foreign occupation of Arabs by Turkish and Iranian Empires in the second millennium, which could be not so much less desirable than the occupation by European colonial powers more near the end of the second millennium.

    I don't think Pakistan or Indonesia have such kind of imperialist goals, but they will perhaps be the most important Muslim powers in near to our subsequent decades. With such large population, they could potentially become more important powers than Turkey or Iran.

    Replies: @Yahya

  126. @Here Be Dragon
    @Yahya

    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What's your native tongue, if you don't mind me asking?

    Replies: @Yahya

    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What’s your native tongue, if you don’t mind me asking?

    Arabic. My background should become clear from a brief perusal of my commenting archive. I haven’t made much of an effort to conceal my identity or ethnicity.

    Also my close acquaintance with the “Muslim World” is limited to the Arab world and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.). I haven’t the faintest clue about the goings on of Indonesia or Bangladesh. Which is one reason why I take exception to the conflating of the “Arab world” with “Muslim world”. The two are not synonymous. If you look at my post above, you’d notice a lot of Christian names and figures. This is no coincidence. Arab Christians are an integral component of the Arab world owing to their relative intellectual capabilities and educational attainment.

    Terms like “Muslim world”, when referring to the space between Morocco and Iraq, generally exclude Arab Christians, which is why I take exception to its usage. Some non-Arab Muslims (especially Pakistanis) conflate these terms on purpose to loop themselves into the prestige Arab world (most of the important events in Islamic history occurred here); but they played no meaningful role in constructing that history. Arab Christians did.

    Arabs only constitute 25% of the world’s Muslims. The Arab world is thus not the Muslim world; and the Muslim world is not the Arab world.

    • LOL: sher singh
    • Replies: @AP
    @Yahya

    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some of them have of course played a central role in Arab nationalism (it’s a way of transcending religious differences with their Muslim neighbors), but others deny that they are Arabs. I have known quite a few Christian Arabs from Iraq; they consider themselves to be Chaldeans rather than Arabs, descendants of Babylonians who had been invaded and their lands settled by barbarians from the desert who now outnumber them on their native lands. In Detroit there is some friction between the Chaldean and Muslim-Arab communities due to the former insisting on not being identified as Arabs.

    Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @A123
    @Yahya

    The phrase Arab World may have some value in historical contexts. Alas, it has little utility in modern day affairs. In the Arab World and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.):

        • Arab Christians and Muslims in Lebanon are hopefully headed towards a partition. The alternative is continuing to spiral down towards a failed state.
        • Arab Muslims and Jews have difficult relationships
        • Conflict between Kurdish Muslims and Turkic Muslims has a long history.
        • Everyone knows about the exceedingly poor relations between Saudi Sunnis and Persian Shias.

    One could easily add many, many more bullets points to this list of Arab World divisiveness.
    ____

    The acronym MENA (Middle East / North Africa) region is more functional. It does not inappropriately imply internal cohesiveness. No one expects the "MENA World" to successfully coordinate efforts or share common positions on important issues.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Here Be Dragon
    @Yahya


    My close acquaintance with the “Muslim World” is limited to the Arab world and its peripheries, which is one reason why I take exception to the conflating of “Arab world” with “Muslim world”. The two are not synonymous.
     
    Thank you for explaining it.

    However, do the Berber people of Maghreb belong to the Arab world? They seem to be different – have a different musical tradition, at least in Morocco.

    Are the people of Yemen part of the Arab culture? These have a very specific architeture. Like from the One Thousand and One Nights it looks; at least it makes me think of it. One of the most beautiful places on earth.

    Arab Christians are an integral component of the Arab world owing to their relative intellectual capabilities and educational attainment.
     
    Of course. We have some people here who believe that Christians have been denigrated and persecuted in the Arab countries. Do you know anything about that?

    Are you a Christian or a Muslim?

    The gulf is a cultural desert in both relative and absolute terms.
     
    That much is clear.

    Do you think that the orthodox understanding of Quran has anything to do with it? My acquaintance with the Arab culture is rather rudimentary, but it seems to me that Sufism is where the renaissance may begin from.

    Anyway, onto Arabic music. Since I’m not an expert nor do I have any formal degree of musical training, I’m incapable of assessing their quality beyond what my ears tell me.
     
    Neither knowledge of theory nor training in performance are needed for appreciation of music.

    The Mysticism of Sound and Music
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158312.The_Mysticism_of_Sound_and_Music

    You may find this book very useful, it is a lot more helpful – written by a Sufi musician.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buxccDwjkdA

    And of course, this may be not your cup of tea, but this track is the best Arabic music ever!

    Perhaps not, but it's good.

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

  127. @Yahya
    @Here Be Dragon


    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What’s your native tongue, if you don’t mind me asking?

     

    Arabic. My background should become clear from a brief perusal of my commenting archive. I haven't made much of an effort to conceal my identity or ethnicity.

    Also my close acquaintance with the "Muslim World" is limited to the Arab world and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.). I haven't the faintest clue about the goings on of Indonesia or Bangladesh. Which is one reason why I take exception to the conflating of the "Arab world" with "Muslim world". The two are not synonymous. If you look at my post above, you'd notice a lot of Christian names and figures. This is no coincidence. Arab Christians are an integral component of the Arab world owing to their relative intellectual capabilities and educational attainment.

    Terms like "Muslim world", when referring to the space between Morocco and Iraq, generally exclude Arab Christians, which is why I take exception to its usage. Some non-Arab Muslims (especially Pakistanis) conflate these terms on purpose to loop themselves into the prestige Arab world (most of the important events in Islamic history occurred here); but they played no meaningful role in constructing that history. Arab Christians did.

    Arabs only constitute 25% of the world's Muslims. The Arab world is thus not the Muslim world; and the Muslim world is not the Arab world.

    Replies: @AP, @A123, @Here Be Dragon

    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some of them have of course played a central role in Arab nationalism (it’s a way of transcending religious differences with their Muslim neighbors), but others deny that they are Arabs. I have known quite a few Christian Arabs from Iraq; they consider themselves to be Chaldeans rather than Arabs, descendants of Babylonians who had been invaded and their lands settled by barbarians from the desert who now outnumber them on their native lands. In Detroit there is some friction between the Chaldean and Muslim-Arab communities due to the former insisting on not being identified as Arabs.

    Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @AP


    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

     

    Yes and some Arab Muslims also reject their "Arab" identity in favor of a more localized ethnic identity. I mentioned the writer Taha Hussein above; well he was a "Pharaonist" for most of his life who believed Egypt was a distinct political and geographic unit which ought to be separate from the rest of the Arab world. Until the rise of Gamal Abdel-Nasser; Pharoanism had been the dominant strain of nationalism in Egypt; and it was mostly pioneered by Egyptian Muslims (though they were secularized) such as Mustafa Kamil (no relation to Ataturk) and Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid.

    Chaldeans are somewhat of a special case in that they have maintained use of their neo-Aramaic language in the vernacular; unlike most other Arab Christians who only use their "original languages" in church liturgy but otherwise speak Arabic as their primary language.

    Generally, people are free to identify however which way they want. But they are not free to make unsubstantiated claims about other ethno-religious groups regarding their origins or indigeneity. According to the Harappa World Admixture dataset, Iraqi Muslims mostly share a common genetic foundation with Assyrians (both are mostly Caucasian + SW Asian); except Iraqi Muslims have received some admixture from Arabians, Turks, Caucasians and Africans which leads to a difference in their "Caucasian" component by roughly 14%. The last genetic admixture in particular shifts Iraqi Muslims on a PCA chart away from Assyrians owing to the vast genetic distance between Middle Easterners and sub-Saharans.

    We know Iraqi Muslims are not descended from Arabians as Saudis are distinct in that they have significantly more of the SW Asian component (58%) than Iraqi Muslims (22%).

    Replies: @AP

  128. @AP
    @Yahya

    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some of them have of course played a central role in Arab nationalism (it’s a way of transcending religious differences with their Muslim neighbors), but others deny that they are Arabs. I have known quite a few Christian Arabs from Iraq; they consider themselves to be Chaldeans rather than Arabs, descendants of Babylonians who had been invaded and their lands settled by barbarians from the desert who now outnumber them on their native lands. In Detroit there is some friction between the Chaldean and Muslim-Arab communities due to the former insisting on not being identified as Arabs.

    Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

    Replies: @Yahya

    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

    Yes and some Arab Muslims also reject their “Arab” identity in favor of a more localized ethnic identity. I mentioned the writer Taha Hussein above; well he was a “Pharaonist” for most of his life who believed Egypt was a distinct political and geographic unit which ought to be separate from the rest of the Arab world. Until the rise of Gamal Abdel-Nasser; Pharoanism had been the dominant strain of nationalism in Egypt; and it was mostly pioneered by Egyptian Muslims (though they were secularized) such as Mustafa Kamil (no relation to Ataturk) and Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid.

    Chaldeans are somewhat of a special case in that they have maintained use of their neo-Aramaic language in the vernacular; unlike most other Arab Christians who only use their “original languages” in church liturgy but otherwise speak Arabic as their primary language.

    Generally, people are free to identify however which way they want. But they are not free to make unsubstantiated claims about other ethno-religious groups regarding their origins or indigeneity. According to the Harappa World Admixture dataset, Iraqi Muslims mostly share a common genetic foundation with Assyrians (both are mostly Caucasian + SW Asian); except Iraqi Muslims have received some admixture from Arabians, Turks, Caucasians and Africans which leads to a difference in their “Caucasian” component by roughly 14%. The last genetic admixture in particular shifts Iraqi Muslims on a PCA chart away from Assyrians owing to the vast genetic distance between Middle Easterners and sub-Saharans.

    We know Iraqi Muslims are not descended from Arabians as Saudis are distinct in that they have significantly more of the SW Asian component (58%) than Iraqi Muslims (22%).

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    @Yahya


    We know Iraqi Muslims are not descended from Arabians as Saudis are distinct in that they have significantly more of the SW Asian component (58%) than Iraqi Muslims (22%).
     
    A great thing about genetic science is how it can confirm or disconfirm cherished myths.
  129. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Barbarossa

    Umberto Eco said he had 25 000 books.

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/01/16/fashion/VIRAL-LIBRARY/VIRAL-LIBRARY-superJumbo.jpg

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @Philip Owen

    I have a couple of thousand books most of which I will never read again. My new books arrive by Kindle and Kobo. Should I send my books to landfill? Is it worth digging out obscure British 1st editions of ’60’s and ’70’s scifi? Complete Asimov, Brunner, Heinlein, Harrison and others. Also a lot of King Arthur stuff. Is life too short? A great grandfather left 5000 books. His estate paid for the transport to donate them to the founding collection for the proposed National Library of Wales. I do not wish to burden my children so.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Philip Owen

    Do you have Mist of Avalon?

    Ronald Hutton's KA book?

    I pitched the first, still have the second. 35 y.o. Julianna Margulise was smoking hot in the mini series which I still have the DVD.

    Did you ever watch Xena Warrior Princess?

    Replies: @songbird, @Philip Owen

    , @Barbarossa
    @Philip Owen


    Should I send my books to landfill?
     
    That's a painful and tragic thought. If an ocean were not intervening I would probably help you out! Do libraries in the UK not have yearly booksales? You could at least donate a few boxes a year and know that someone could get enjoyment from them. I presume that none of your children have expressed interest in your library?

    Personally, I find real paper books to be incomparable and I will never give them up for digital. Inefficiency has it's charms, after all.


    A great grandfather left 5000 books.
     
    It's a funny thing that we live in such a material overabundance that what would have been a legacy not that long ago has become an encumbrance. I do know what you mean though, my dad has a substantial library that my brother and I (mostly me since my brother travels light in life) will get. I'll incorporate much into my own library, but I will also be getting rid of some as well.

    Replies: @S

  130. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    America has the best infrastructure for hosting websites [Every nation can produce pornography].

    Hosting doesn’t have anything to do with production of pornography.
     

    America has the most websites of any kind in the world, therefore this is also true of pornographic ones.

    "The top consumer of pornography per capita is Pakistan. It is followed by Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India."

    “According to google search engine” – sure.
     

    That's what the Times of India reported. People search for porn on google most in Pakistan.

    Pakistan reports the same thing:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/823696/pakistan-tops-list-of-most-porn-searching-countries-google

    Pakistan tops list of most porn-searching countries: Google

    Data reveals six of the top eight counties on the list are Muslim states


    Even the article that you reference clearly states that it is the United States that is the first in generating porno traffic.
     
    That's an an American porn website.

    Overall Pakistanis look at porn most often online, but on the specific American website Americans are the biggest customers, followed by Brits.

    In your dishonesty you conflate consumers of this website with overall porn consumption.


    Together the two countries [America and UK] have produced 90 percent of the world’s serial killers. The rest of the world – ten percent.
     
    I haven't checked these numbers but we know you lie about numbers so this may be incorrect.

    Since the number of serial killers per capita is very close to zero everywhere, even 90% is a meaningless figure though. It makes sense that you would desperately cling to it, you have nothing else.


    The United States are by far the first in consumption of pornography
     
    See above, it is Pakistan.

    So Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus are the top porn consumers. Christians don’t appear until #9 (Philippines) and #10 (Poland).

    You wish.
     

    I don't wish anything about this. It's what google shows.

    You dishonestly post numbers from an American porn website, and present it as overall porn consumption.

    Google searches for pornography meanwhile place Pakistan in first place.

    However the fact that Indians feature so prominently on an American website indicates that they watch a lot of pornography.


    US named the most porn obsessed country in the world
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18187404/usa-named-most-porn-obsessed-country-worldwide/
     
    You cite a tabloid, that cites the use on a single American website. To be sure, it's a popular one, but its not overall pornography.

    You are a shameless liar.
     
    No, you are. And now we will see:

    “Many come to work here from the former Soviet Union,” he said. “They send money home because their income has fallen against the value of the dollar compared with previous years.” – Amnesty International
     

    But even they have to admit, that most of these so-called Russian prostitutes are Ukrainian women, serving Asian Gastarbeiters and truck drivers.
     
    They don't say most, liar.

    Your quote said "many."


    There’s no work in Ukraine – so, the Ukrainian women come to Russia, and sell their bodies.
     
    Donbas was the largest source of Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia. People from Donbas now have Russian passports. So they are Russians. And there is less prostitution in Ukraine than in Russia, because Ukrainian prostitutes go to Russia or Europe.

    But we were comparing Russia with the USA, you try to change the focus onto Ukraine another country tainted by the morally degenerative Soviet legacy (especially its eastern parts).

    It is a good point though - that many prostitutes in Russia are not Russians, but foreigners. However, many Russians are prostitutes abroad also, so these numbers compensate for one another. For example, Russia is the second largest source of prostitutes in the EU:

    https://tampep.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TAMPEP-2009-European-Mapping-Report.pdf

    https://i.imgur.com/35mcisJ.png

    This means that indeed about 1 in 50 or 1 in 150 Russian women are prostitutes (some in Russia, some abroad). This is much more significant than the number of serial killers which is close to zero per capita.


    There’s no such category as “manslaughter” in Russia, so the statistics count every case as a murder.
     
    American homicide rate includes nonnegligent manslaughter:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

    The numbers are congruent.

    Don't dishonestly imply otherwise.


    And the truth is, there’s a lot more murder in the United States.
     
    No, you are just lying as usual.

    The serial killers alone – and there are 20 times more of them in the United States
     
    20 times zero is zero. 20 times almost zero, is also almost zero.

    The same as you are sure that any other lie supporting your delusions is true. Like that about 1.2% of Russians being HIV positive
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

    Here is the UN:

    Many people, even within the government, think those estimates understate the epidemic. Vadim Pokrovsky, who heads the Federal Scientific and Methodological Center for Prevention and Control of AIDS in Moscow, an epidemiological surveillance arm that's independent from the Ministry of Health, does battle with the divisions that oversee HIV and tuberculosis (TB). His group estimates that between 1.1 million and 1.4 million Russians are infected with HIV. And Michel Kazatchkine, special adviser to UNAIDS in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and colleagues concluded in a study published last year that the true number of infected people may be as high as 2 million. They based their number on an estimate by Pokrovsky's team that only half the infected people in Russia knew their HIV status in 2013.

    1.2% may be an underestimate. The Russian government is minimizing the number of HIV victims in Russia.

    But even the official Russian figure (.75%) is more than twice higher than the American HIV rate (.36%).

    So you can point to some extremely rare serial killers but meanwhile Russia still has a higher overall homicide rate, over 1% of Russians have HIV (about three times more than in the USA), and between 1 and 50 and 1 in 150 Russians sell their bodies for sex.

    Almost nobody in either Russia or the USA will ever meet a serial killer. But Russians are a lot more likely to know more people who have HIV, or who sell their bodies - or to be such people.

    That is a more degenerate society.

    And you didn't bother mentioning abortion and divorce rates. Lol.


    There are about 3 million of the Ukrainian prostitutes in Russia, according to Amnesty International.
     
    You lie again. This what was actually said:

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/06/irina-maslova-human-rights-defender-in-russia/

    "Over many years, some unofficial estimates have calculated the number of sex workers in Russia to be at three million, and their clients at 30 million"

    That's the total number, up to three million. Nothing about foreigners. You are just lying as usual.

    Soviets always lie. You are no exception, proud and shameless Soviet liar.

    Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not), @Here Be Dragon, @Svidomyatheart, @Gerard1234, @Philip Owen

    The director of my business in Russia previously ran an AIDS prevention NGO to which she has returned. She is clear that the official AIDS centres do not reach all even most victims. She is also clear that most AIDS in Russia is drug related. That said, on Fridays, a handful of night butterflies turned up at our offices to collect some of the 100,000 free condoms she continued to distribute for resale to their coworkers.

  131. @AP
    @songbird


    I suppose eating raw meat (such as a person might do in a high mountain pass) might be even more unhealthy for them. I personally stay away from the stuff and would not eat it in a million years

     

    Steak tartare is great!

    Replies: @songbird

    I think steak is relatively safer, but anytime you grind meat that is introducing more danger.

    Strange to think that when hamburger was introduced to America it was typically consumed raw.

    I’m probably a bit paranoid about it. You are probably worse off eating raw vegetables (which I also don’t do.) But I suspect that that a simple fatality count would underplay the dangers of getting organ damage, or having other bad stuff happen to you.

    Conversely, I suppose I could be in the wrong, and eating everything well-done meat might be more dangerous, if it increases one’s cancer risk.

    I suppose the bigger danger of eating in restaurants comes from the servers, rather than the cooking process.

  132. @Yahya
    @Here Be Dragon


    You see to have close acquaintance with the Muslim world. What’s your native tongue, if you don’t mind me asking?

     

    Arabic. My background should become clear from a brief perusal of my commenting archive. I haven't made much of an effort to conceal my identity or ethnicity.

    Also my close acquaintance with the "Muslim World" is limited to the Arab world and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.). I haven't the faintest clue about the goings on of Indonesia or Bangladesh. Which is one reason why I take exception to the conflating of the "Arab world" with "Muslim world". The two are not synonymous. If you look at my post above, you'd notice a lot of Christian names and figures. This is no coincidence. Arab Christians are an integral component of the Arab world owing to their relative intellectual capabilities and educational attainment.

    Terms like "Muslim world", when referring to the space between Morocco and Iraq, generally exclude Arab Christians, which is why I take exception to its usage. Some non-Arab Muslims (especially Pakistanis) conflate these terms on purpose to loop themselves into the prestige Arab world (most of the important events in Islamic history occurred here); but they played no meaningful role in constructing that history. Arab Christians did.

    Arabs only constitute 25% of the world's Muslims. The Arab world is thus not the Muslim world; and the Muslim world is not the Arab world.

    Replies: @AP, @A123, @Here Be Dragon

    The phrase Arab World may have some value in historical contexts. Alas, it has little utility in modern day affairs. In the Arab World and its peripheries (Iran, Turkey etc.):

        • Arab Christians and Muslims in Lebanon are hopefully headed towards a partition. The alternative is continuing to spiral down towards a failed state.
        • Arab Muslims and Jews have difficult relationships
        • Conflict between Kurdish Muslims and Turkic Muslims has a long history.
        • Everyone knows about the exceedingly poor relations between Saudi Sunnis and Persian Shias.

    One could easily add many, many more bullets points to this list of Arab World divisiveness.
    ____

    The acronym MENA (Middle East / North Africa) region is more functional. It does not inappropriately imply internal cohesiveness. No one expects the “MENA World” to successfully coordinate efforts or share common positions on important issues.

    PEACE 😇

  133. @Yahya
    @AP


    Arab Christians themselves seem to be rather ambivalent about their status as Arabs. Some Lebanese Christians similarly consider themselves to be Phoenicians.

     

    Yes and some Arab Muslims also reject their "Arab" identity in favor of a more localized ethnic identity. I mentioned the writer Taha Hussein above; well he was a "Pharaonist" for most of his life who believed Egypt was a distinct political and geographic unit which ought to be separate from the rest of the Arab world. Until the rise of Gamal Abdel-Nasser; Pharoanism had been the dominant strain of nationalism in Egypt; and it was mostly pioneered by Egyptian Muslims (though they were secularized) such as Mustafa Kamil (no relation to Ataturk) and Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid.

    Chaldeans are somewhat of a special case in that they have maintained use of their neo-Aramaic language in the vernacular; unlike most other Arab Christians who only use their "original languages" in church liturgy but otherwise speak Arabic as their primary language.

    Generally, people are free to identify however which way they want. But they are not free to make unsubstantiated claims about other ethno-religious groups regarding their origins or indigeneity. According to the Harappa World Admixture dataset, Iraqi Muslims mostly share a common genetic foundation with Assyrians (both are mostly Caucasian + SW Asian); except Iraqi Muslims have received some admixture from Arabians, Turks, Caucasians and Africans which leads to a difference in their "Caucasian" component by roughly 14%. The last genetic admixture in particular shifts Iraqi Muslims on a PCA chart away from Assyrians owing to the vast genetic distance between Middle Easterners and sub-Saharans.

    We know Iraqi Muslims are not descended from Arabians as Saudis are distinct in that they have significantly more of the SW Asian component (58%) than Iraqi Muslims (22%).

    Replies: @AP

    We know Iraqi Muslims are not descended from Arabians as Saudis are distinct in that they have significantly more of the SW Asian component (58%) than Iraqi Muslims (22%).

    A great thing about genetic science is how it can confirm or disconfirm cherished myths.

  134. @Wokechoke
    The collapse of liberal-democratic narratives about ww2 is the funniest part of the war.

    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht. Sweden wasn't really neutral and Finland, Romania, Hungary were actually pretty keen.

    That's not to mention fascists like Italy and Spain sending divisions into the USSR. The Poles, well they are Poles, a sui generis case of getting into wars they cannot win again and again.

    ww2 never ended as Charlie Manson zanily pointed out. But here, all the Germans needed to do was subordinate themselves to Anglo-Jewish power and then be given a free hand in the East with the Russian ethnics. what a neat trick.

    What result will the coming Russo-Chinese alliance produce though? the same defeat for Europe or the Balkanization of the resources of Russia?

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Coconuts

    The Russo-Ukraine war suggests that after-all Holland Belgium France Norway Denmark Czechoslovakia Ukraine Baltics Croatia were not exactly invaded but were overturned with either deep native support, with conservatives and more radical nationalists cheering on the Wehrmacht.

    The French conservative support for the Wehrmacht is a wacky idea; there was a tendency for French conservatives to blame the left for delivering France to the Germans, by promoting pacifism and disaffection pre-war, or following Comintern orders in the Communist case.

    Franco was pretty pro-Nazi, but the one division he sent was payback for the Condor Legion and to thank the Soviets for their intervention in Spain during 1936-39.

  135. @songbird
    @Coconuts

    I wonder whether religious institutions may have been lulled about civil rights legislation because they were given carve-outs, which maybe, at the time, made it seem like it wasn't as aggressive a move as it really was. Like maybe, it would be turned-back, it things got out of hand.

    I'm not quite sure how the law works, but it almost seems to me as if a lot of religious, charitable organizations are deeply effected by civil rights law, today.

    I vaguely recall a case years ago, where the Salvation Army was sued because some manager told Mexican workers to speak English. It also seems to me as though Catholic Charities has a startling number of Jewish managers, and one might reach the conclusion that they may have helped form policy regarding settling migrants.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I wonder whether religious institutions may have been lulled about civil rights legislation because they were given carve-outs, which maybe, at the time, made it seem like it wasn’t as aggressive a move as it really was. Like maybe, it would be turned-back, it things got out of hand.

    I’m not quite sure how the law works, but it almost seems to me as if a lot of religious, charitable organizations are deeply effected by civil rights law, today.

    I would think so, I heard some discussion about this recently, maybe it was on Academic Agent’s YT channel, where they said if people had known where things would end up even 20 years after some of this kind of legislation was passed, it would likely never have got through.

    I think its pretty certain it shapes institutions and organisations as well, the civil rights/equality legislation maybe has had a lot to do with the power of the Woke movement, and religious organisations are affected in a similar way to the others. Again, if this had been fully appreciated there would probably have been more concern about this legislation and how it fits with religious freedom.

    It also seems to me as though Catholic Charities has a startling number of Jewish managers…

    This is surprising but somehow not surprising at the same time.

    • Agree: songbird
  136. @songbird
    @German_reader

    In L. Sprague de Camp's classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD, by a natural phenomenon when he is visiting the Pantheon. One of the innovations he introduces in order to try to fend off the collapse is double-entry bookkeeping, which was present in 13th century Italy.

    Of course, there is some that say that the Romans already had it, based on something Pliny the Elder said, which, however, I think is rather unclear.

    Replies: @S

    In L. Sprague de Camp’s classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD…to try to fend off the collapse.

    It’s an intriguing premise, though if such a thing were possible, that archeologist would have had his hands full. There were a lot of disasters all occurring nearly simultaneously at about that time. At least one medieval scholar thinks 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.

    The volcanic winter of 536 was the most severe and protracted episode of climatic cooling in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 2,000 years….The volcanic eruptions, accompanied by the Plague of Justinian, which began in 541, caused crop failures, famine, and millions of deaths and initiated the Late Antique Little Ice Age, which lasted from 536 to 660….Medieval scholar Michael McCormick has written that 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    Was actually just thinking about the climate. Haven't mowed my lawn in like 7 or 8 weeks because there is a drought. In a way, it seems like an odd convenience, but I suppose if I were living in Plymouth Plantation and it was 1630 or so, then it would be the crops that were stunted and there would be the prospect of famine.

    We are removed from that prospect now, but I wonder how long it will keep going.

    IIRC, the book ends with the protagonist planning an expedition to the New World, in order to get tobacco for his pipe. I think the potato would have been game changing, eventually, but it did take quite a few years to have an impact in Europe. Maybe, because the plant needed to adapt to local conditions, in addition to people's customs needing to change.

    A lot of the past seems to be apocalyptic. A few weeks back I read a passage about the march of Elizabethan soldiers across the Dingle peninsula, in Co. Kerry. I don't have have the passage on hand, but to paraphrase the primary English source, what they did was something like, 1.) create corpse-eating zombies, 2.) then kill all the zombies.

    BTW, I think Peter Zeihan is still saying something like 1.5 billion people will starve to death in the near future, as globalism collapses.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @S, @Thulean Friend

  137. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    We don't have to say in every way, but achievements of antiquity are not surpassed in the 12th century, most not until the 16th century under capitalism.

    Compared to the slave economy of the ancient world where income is created by unassisted labor, feudalism is using more capital. In terms of finance, there is also more advanced financial systems emerging by the second millennium including in the Muslim world.

    But you wrote "achievements of antiquity", not "basis of the economic system". And in standard concept of achievements of antiquity, of course, the feudal painting, sculpture, maths, science, logic, civil engineering, philosophy, writing, are not being surpassed in the 12th century, even though feudalism is a higher economic stage in the view of most economists.

    In the 15th century, classical sculpture level is becoming achieve in Italy (but not necessarily surpassed), while painting is beginning to achieve classical level in the 14th century Italy. But the R&D for these works was the ancient world, as Renaissance is advancing with help of the ancient world. Michelangelo is standing on the classical sculpture.

    Then in science 16th century there are Bacon, Galileo, who finally are able to develop become the ancient model or break from Aristotle. Galileo's advance is possible because of technological level developed in Netherland in terms of glass instruments. This is partly example of the scientific progress driven by the higher economic complexity in bourgeois capitalism.

    In terms of writing, 12th century writing European writing (outside the Arabic parts of Europe or some specialized discussion in the Church) will appear more like children's literature, in comparison to classical texts.

    With inspiration of those classical texts, then writing rapidly becomes more sophisticated in the Renaissance. However, for example, you would know with historical writing, that history is not at classical level until as late as the 18th century, where they are beginning again discussing about historical causation and reliability of sources like in 5th century Athens.

    Replies: @AP

    And in standard concept of achievements of antiquity, of course, the feudal painting, sculpture, maths, science, logic, civil engineering, philosophy, writing, are not being surpassed in the 12th century

    In terms of civil engineering and architecture, medieval Europeans by the end of the 12th century (or at least the 13th century, which was still before the Renaissance) had surpassed antiquity in various ways. Most of these are from Europe:

    https://www.medievalists.net/2020/09/medieval-megaprojects/

    Sophisticated watermills and windmills harnessed natural energy, creation of canals, glass technology, etc. They also improved upon agricultural techniques and plow technology which allowed for largescale population growth in colder climates. There were significant improvements in iron production and mining technology. Weapons of course had also become far more advanced – Europeans invented arched saddles which made shock cavalry possible, created more sophisticated armor, siege engines, etc. I don’t think that Roman roads were surpassed though. Overall, the Medieval use of the natural world was probably more sophisticated than had been the case with the the Ancients.

    Gothic architecture used technological advances such as flying buttresses and ribbed vaulting that enabled unprecedented height and space with thinner walls and huge windows. The tower at Lincoln Cathedral, built in 1311, was the tallest building in the world until the construction of the Eiffel Tower. Medieval architecture was both more advanced and very different from Classical architecture, the fruit of a new civilizational type. I understand medievalists who lament its abandonment during the Renaissance, when copies from ancient forms were preferred, a sort of betrayal of native traditions.

    http://www.athenapub.com/AR/14gothic-architecture.htm

    [MORE]

    “The two main structural innovations of Gothic architecture were pointed arches and ogival or ribbed vaulting (Bony 1983). By the 12th century, architects realized the superiority of the groined vault compared to the barrel vault and started to add ribs, which were used to support the weight of the vault. Cross-ribbed vaulting functions in much the same manner as plain groined vaulting, except that it is reinforced with ribs, and can be made much thinner. The vault uses a diagonally reinforced arch resting on thin pillars, permitting the walls to be hollowed out (and thus, filled with windows), while also allowing the vaults to extend higher. At Amiens, for example, the introduction of an extra transverse rib between the diagonal ribs of the vault allowed for a lighter and more elevated interior. Such light, skeletal construction employing cross ribbed-vaults and other thin carrying structures (interior columns, exterior flying buttresses), replaced the massiveness of Romanesque vaults. This had the revolutionary effect of opening up the interior space of a large building such as a church. As the Gothic era progressed, vaulting became increasing complex and saw the development of more varied forms such as the quatri-partite vault and the sexpartite vault. Slender columns and stained glass windows also gave the church a more spacious and heightened effect..”

    The ancients might not have been impressed by medieval literature or sculpture, but would probably would have been impressed by Gothic architecture (though it would be alien to them):

  138. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon

    I cannot do better than German Reader's comment but will make some obvious points he didn't bother to make:


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.
    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

     

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called "researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco", another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    About Darkening Age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Actual scholars mostly ridicule it.

    Only some impressed by such nonsensical works would make outrageously ignorant claims such as:

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later
     
    It was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Medieval_Europe

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[84] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[85]

    Bede was lucid about Earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar Anania Shirakatsi described the world as "being like an egg with a spherical yolk (the globe) surrounded by a layer of white (the atmosphere) and covered with a hard shell (the sky

    During the High Middle Ages, the astronomical knowledge in Christian Europe was extended beyond what was transmitted directly from ancient authors by transmission of learning from Medieval Islamic astronomy. An early student of such learning was Gerbert d'Aurillac, the later Pope Sylvester II.

    Saint Hildegard (Hildegard von Bingen, 1098–1179), depicted the spherical Earth several times in her work Liber Divinorum Operum.[88]

    Johannes de Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256 AD) wrote a famous work on Astronomy called Tractatus de Sphaera, based on Ptolemy, which primarily considers the sphere of the sky. However, it contains clear proofs of Earth's sphericity in the first chapter.[89][90]

    Many scholastic commentators on Aristotle's On the Heavens and Sacrobosco's Treatise on the Sphere unanimously agreed that Earth is spherical or round.[91] Grant observes that no author who had studied at a medieval university thought that Earth was flat.[92]

    The Elucidarium of Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of lesser clergy, which was translated into Middle English, Old French, Middle High German, Old Russian, Middle Dutch, Old Norse, Icelandic, Spanish, and several Italian dialects, explicitly refers to a spherical Earth. Likewise, the fact that Bertold von Regensburg (mid-13th century) used the spherical Earth as an illustration in a sermon shows that he could assume this knowledge among his congregation. The sermon was preached in the vernacular German, and thus was not intended for a learned audience.

    Or the work of Democritus,
     
    "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned."

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia
     
    Author is a young woke New Yorker. From your link: "Soraya Field Fiorio is a writer and feminist historian based in New York City."

    While it is true that she was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A real appraisal of her:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/08/06/who-was-hypatia-of-alexandria-really/

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times."

    It's too bad we don't have those books for research purposes, but one can't blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.
     
    Christians were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    And though they [Muslims] conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.
     
    Muslims didn't encounter demon-worshipping Mesoamericans.

    This is what Sikhs have to say about Islamic behavior in India:

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

    With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. Nadir Shah made a mountain of the skulls of the Hindus he killed in Delhi alone. Babur raised towers of Hindu skulls at Khanua when he defeated Rana Sanga in 1527 and later he repeated the same horrors after capturing the fort of Chanderi. Akbar ordered a general massacre of 30,000 Rajputs after he captured Chithorgarh in 1568. The Bahamani Sultans had an annual agenda of killing a minimum of 100,000 Hindus every year.

    :::::::::::::::::::

    It's interesting that you chose not to settle not in a place such as India, or a Muslim country, or Thailand, or Israel (you are part Jewish) - but in Christendom.

    Replies: @songbird, @Here Be Dragon, @Here Be Dragon

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn’t support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn’t educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there’s a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can’t do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my penis in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behavior, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.

    “The 7th-century scholar described the world as being like an egg and covered with a hard shell.” – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.

    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    [MORE]

    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    “The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma’mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175.”

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”

    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people’s position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there’s a reputation to consider – and what’s more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    “The author is a young woke New Yorker” – exactly as has been said, the person isn’t educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    “A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others.”

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who “attack all the sacraments of the Church” and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    “Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins.”

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don’t they sell it, or didn’t they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius” – “Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    “On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle.”

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    “Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.”

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it’s in the Bible – “when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them” – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, “thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.”

    And it is never a wrong deed, “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    “The Qur’an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand’. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur’an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, “As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries.”

    Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected persons.

    You are a liar; but as a Christian, must follow the teaching of Christ, and not of a Pope. Not even of the Church, and not of the priesthood, but of Christ himself; and his teaching that is in his book, and his book is straightforward and clear-cut.

    He said, “Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

    So be it.

  139. @S
    @songbird


    In L. Sprague de Camp’s classic scifi novel Lest Darkness Fall, an American archaeologist is sent back in time to 535 AD...to try to fend off the collapse.
     
    It's an intriguing premise, though if such a thing were possible, that archeologist would have had his hands full. There were a lot of disasters all occurring nearly simultaneously at about that time. At least one medieval scholar thinks 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.

    The volcanic winter of 536 was the most severe and protracted episode of climatic cooling in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 2,000 years....The volcanic eruptions, accompanied by the Plague of Justinian, which began in 541, caused crop failures, famine, and millions of deaths and initiated the Late Antique Little Ice Age, which lasted from 536 to 660....Medieval scholar Michael McCormick has written that 536 was the worst year in history to be alive.
     
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536

    Replies: @songbird

    Was actually just thinking about the climate. Haven’t mowed my lawn in like 7 or 8 weeks because there is a drought. In a way, it seems like an odd convenience, but I suppose if I were living in Plymouth Plantation and it was 1630 or so, then it would be the crops that were stunted and there would be the prospect of famine.

    We are removed from that prospect now, but I wonder how long it will keep going.

    [MORE]

    IIRC, the book ends with the protagonist planning an expedition to the New World, in order to get tobacco for his pipe. I think the potato would have been game changing, eventually, but it did take quite a few years to have an impact in Europe. Maybe, because the plant needed to adapt to local conditions, in addition to people’s customs needing to change.

    A lot of the past seems to be apocalyptic. A few weeks back I read a passage about the march of Elizabethan soldiers across the Dingle peninsula, in Co. Kerry. I don’t have have the passage on hand, but to paraphrase the primary English source, what they did was something like, 1.) create corpse-eating zombies, 2.) then kill all the zombies.

    BTW, I think Peter Zeihan is still saying something like 1.5 billion people will starve to death in the near future, as globalism collapses.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @songbird


    We are removed from that prospect now, but I wonder how long it will keep going.
     
    Well not all of us are that far removed. My pastures got one rotation and they haven't grown back, so I've already been feeding hay for several weeks. I took a great first cutting off my hay fields but second cutting is minimal and barely growing. If we get some rain I could get a second cutting, but the clock is ticking as the days are getting shorter and it's harder to dry hay with less hours of sun.

    I was hoping to sell a substantial amount of hay this year, but that prospect seems unlikely, which is too bad since good hay should fetch a very nice price this year with the drought. Last year it was so wet I couldn't get a window to dry my second cutting hay and so lost it, so we can't win with the wild swings in weather patterns.

    This is all not to say that I'm going to go hungry or even that my animals will, but it does keep me personally in mind of how tenuous some of this is. One of the big farmers around me was consoling himself with the fact that at least he hadn't lost out on yields by cutting fertilizer this spring since the drought has toasted many crops anyhow. Cold comfort!

    With enough confluence of factors such as drought out West and in the N. East, the war in Ukraine, etc. it's still possible for things to get acute globally quite easily. As the supply chain issues post Covid show, it only takes a minor drop in total production to throw on-demand systems into a doom-spiral.

    As A123 points out, we are in a relatively secure position in the US, but for much of the world's population it could get sticky quickly.

    Replies: @A123

    , @S
    @songbird


    IIRC, the book ends with the protagonist planning an expedition to the New World, in order to get tobacco for his pipe.

     

    A person always has to have their priorities straight. :-)

    I read a passage about the march of Elizabethan soldiers across the Dingle peninsula, in Co. Kerry. I don’t have have the passage on hand, but to paraphrase the primary English source, what they did was something like, 1.) create corpse-eating zombies, 2.) then kill all the zombies.

     

    That is pretty bad. I think it was during the Irish Famine that there were reports of cannibalism. :-(

    BTW, I think Peter Zeihan is still saying something like 1.5 billion people will starve to death in the near future, as globalism collapses.
     
    Reminds me of the article linked below of just the past few days. They think over five billion could die in a nucleur conflagration.

    The thing with Zeihan, and he is certainly not the only one, is he seems to think these events are, as a rule, all just naturally and spontaneously occurring. He doesn't acknowledge the possibility that at least some (many?) of these modern disasters and wars, including a prospective WWIII, may have been, broadly speaking, manipulated into being, by people with ulterior motives. 'Creative destruction' if you will.

    I do think there are those amongst the many well known prognosticators who suspect that may well be the actual case, but, dare not say so.

    Anyhow, the scenario is an old one: ie a society breaks apart, there is major resulting disorder involving numerous petty warring fiefdoms led by war lords, and a general cry for 'order' from the broad masses, a cry which is soon answered.

    Problem, reaction, solution.



    Mad Max illustrated a potential disordered world quite well...

    https://youtu.be/9n29c-q3_8Q

    https://youtu.be/0hUrcGCQV1g

    People can only stand such a world for so long, however.

    The 1936 film Things to Come and a 1967 episode (clip below) of Star Trek, amongst others, have an idealized 'progressive' (so called) response to such a Mad Max disordered future.

    However, the idealized progressive future as described by Well's, Roddenberry, and the like is one thing, the reality is quite another.

    As a whole, and with few exceptions, progressivism as a movement has, long ago, made the mistake of adopting 'the ends justify the means' to achieve their objectives and to take what they want. In so doing they have become, and then some, what they (at least claimed) to have been fighting all along, ie totalitarian, hatred consumed, war mongering, and extremely violent.

    The present thoroughly debased and utterly corrupt 'progressive' US government, which thinks nothing of openly stealing elections, and hates most of all the majority of it's own citizens, and is to be the core (or something like it) of a coming planned for world government, is evidence of this.

    Jonestown was the unheeded warning.

    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

    https://youtu.be/Q74HdWNNT0w


    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2022/08/15/nuclear-war-risk-death-billions/50604461/

    Replies: @S, @songbird

    , @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    BTW, I think Peter Zeihan is still saying something like 1.5 billion people will starve to death in the near future, as globalism collapses.
     
    Almost all of these apocalyptic prognostications have ended completely contrary to the doomsday rhetoric. Remember the "imminent" Afghan starvation that was supposed to happen this past winter? Millions dead. It was a nothingburger.

    Then we heard similar calls during late Spring as "tens of millions" at risk of famine due to UKR-RU war. It's almost end of summer and I've yet to see any evidence of this happening.



    It was taken for granted among Serious People™ in the 1960s that the world could potentially collapse into mass famine due to overpopulation and scarce resources with people like Paul Ehrlich being perhaps its most vocal proponent. Remember Peak Oil? It was supposed to end civilisation, and then it proved to be a sham so its proponents (incl. Karlin at one point) quietly dropped it.

    It's a bit of a weird quirk with humans: most of us have an in-built optimism bias (probably for evolutionary/natural selection reasons) in our daily lives yet we culturally treat pessimistic scenarios much more seriously and give it far more leeway than anyone making an optimistic case.

    Given the ongoing track record of optimists having a much better batting average, I'm perplexed why the clarion call of doom remains so seductive. Is it an emotional need?

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @songbird

  140. @AP
    @Here Be Dragon

    I cannot do better than German Reader's comment but will make some obvious points he didn't bother to make:


    Here is a review of a book, that you may find worth reading. Even two.
    The Dark Side of Christian History
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51632.The_Dark_Side_of_Christian_History

    The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35450727-the-darkening-age

     

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called "researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco", another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    About Darkening Age:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Actual scholars mostly ridicule it.

    Only some impressed by such nonsensical works would make outrageously ignorant claims such as:

    And it describes the Earth as a sphere, so it had to disappear, and it did; it was rediscovered in translation to Arabic a thousand years later
     
    It was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Medieval_Europe

    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of Earth.[84] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[85]

    Bede was lucid about Earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar Anania Shirakatsi described the world as "being like an egg with a spherical yolk (the globe) surrounded by a layer of white (the atmosphere) and covered with a hard shell (the sky

    During the High Middle Ages, the astronomical knowledge in Christian Europe was extended beyond what was transmitted directly from ancient authors by transmission of learning from Medieval Islamic astronomy. An early student of such learning was Gerbert d'Aurillac, the later Pope Sylvester II.

    Saint Hildegard (Hildegard von Bingen, 1098–1179), depicted the spherical Earth several times in her work Liber Divinorum Operum.[88]

    Johannes de Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256 AD) wrote a famous work on Astronomy called Tractatus de Sphaera, based on Ptolemy, which primarily considers the sphere of the sky. However, it contains clear proofs of Earth's sphericity in the first chapter.[89][90]

    Many scholastic commentators on Aristotle's On the Heavens and Sacrobosco's Treatise on the Sphere unanimously agreed that Earth is spherical or round.[91] Grant observes that no author who had studied at a medieval university thought that Earth was flat.[92]

    The Elucidarium of Honorius Augustodunensis (c. 1120), an important manual for the instruction of lesser clergy, which was translated into Middle English, Old French, Middle High German, Old Russian, Middle Dutch, Old Norse, Icelandic, Spanish, and several Italian dialects, explicitly refers to a spherical Earth. Likewise, the fact that Bertold von Regensburg (mid-13th century) used the spherical Earth as an illustration in a sermon shows that he could assume this knowledge among his congregation. The sermon was preached in the vernacular German, and thus was not intended for a learned audience.

    Or the work of Democritus,
     
    "Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned."

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a mob of Christians.
    https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/killing-hypatia
     
    Author is a young woke New Yorker. From your link: "Soraya Field Fiorio is a writer and feminist historian based in New York City."

    While it is true that she was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A real appraisal of her:

    https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/08/06/who-was-hypatia-of-alexandria-really/

    “Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, four have survived to modern times."

    It's too bad we don't have those books for research purposes, but one can't blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    The truth is, in the Muslim countries the Christian, Hebrew and Arab peoples coexisted in peace.
     
    Christians were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    And though they [Muslims] conquered a half of the earth – or at least what was a half of the earth back then, they had enough wisdom and benevolence to not disrespect other cultures and traditions. They did not do what the Christians did to the Mesoamericans, and they did not do what the Christians did to the heretics. Never once.
     
    Muslims didn't encounter demon-worshipping Mesoamericans.

    This is what Sikhs have to say about Islamic behavior in India:

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

    With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. Nadir Shah made a mountain of the skulls of the Hindus he killed in Delhi alone. Babur raised towers of Hindu skulls at Khanua when he defeated Rana Sanga in 1527 and later he repeated the same horrors after capturing the fort of Chanderi. Akbar ordered a general massacre of 30,000 Rajputs after he captured Chithorgarh in 1568. The Bahamani Sultans had an annual agenda of killing a minimum of 100,000 Hindus every year.

    :::::::::::::::::::

    It's interesting that you chose not to settle not in a place such as India, or a Muslim country, or Thailand, or Israel (you are part Jewish) - but in Christendom.

    Replies: @songbird, @Here Be Dragon, @Here Be Dragon

    For some reason, the quotation tags disappeared from the text below the More tag, and it made the entire comment hard to read and understand, so let me post it once again and perhaps without the More tag, it is long so please excuse me for it. Let us hope it will work this time.

    This comment is the same as the one above it, so disregard the former.

    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.

    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn’t support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn’t educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there’s a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.

    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can’t do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my groin in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behaviour, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar described the world as being like an egg covered with a hard shell – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.

    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    “The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma’mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175.”

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”

    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people’s position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there’s a reputation to consider – and what’s more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.

    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    “The author is a young woke New Yorker” – exactly as has been said, the person isn’t educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.

    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    “A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others.”

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who “attack all the sacraments of the Church” and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    “Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins.”

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don’t they sell it, or didn’t they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius” – “Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    “On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle.”

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    “Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.”

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it’s in the Bible – “when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them” – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, “thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.”

    And it is never a wrong deed, “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.

    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    “The Qur’an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand’. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur’an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, “As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries.”

    Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected persons.

    You are a liar; but as a Christian, must follow the teaching of Christ, and not of a Pope. Not even of the Church, and not of the priesthood, but of Christ himself; and his teaching that is in his book, and his book is straightforward and clear-cut.

    He said, “Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

    So be it.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Here Be Dragon


    The Qur’an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book.
     
    Not even close. The Quran instructs Muslims to exploit, steal from, enslave, and murder Infidels. The 2nd pillar of Islam is -- Taqiyya -- Thou Shalt Lie to the Infidel. (1)

    Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

    Quran (3:28) - This verse instructs believers not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

    Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

    Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..." For today's reader, the circumstances for betraying your word are not specified, leaving this verse open to interpretation. According to Yusuf Ali in his commentary: "if your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow." (Presumably, whatever advances the cause of Islam would qualify as 'doing good').

    Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

    Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" (see also 5:89)

    Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
     
    This is only a tiny sample of Muslim dogmatic loathing for the children of God. The stated goal of their Unholy Book is the genocide of all Christians.

    The idea that the followers of the anti-Christ Muhammad and the followers of Jesus Christ are both in "The Book" is 100% true. Muslims are the spawn of Evil...Begat by Satan/Allah/Lucifer, the eternal enemy of God.

    It really is that simple.

    PEACE 😇
    _________

    (1) https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

    Replies: @Here Be Dragon

    , @AP
    @Here Be Dragon


    You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn’t support your belief, without even looking at it.
     
    Ah, the liar lies again.

    I do not negate anything that doesn't support my belief.

    I negate sources such as " a writer and feminist historian based in New York City" with only a Bachelor's degree n something.

    I do not have time to read every source. But you provided a source written by a journalist (not historian) whose work is described by actual historians and specialists in this way:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age#Reception

    Professor Tim Whitmarsh of Cambridge University described it as "a finely crafted, invigorating polemic against the resilient popular myth that presents the Christianisation of Rome as the triumph of a kinder, gentler politics. On those terms, it succeeds brilliantly". He also cautions that the work risks being one-sided. He said it represented a reversion to Edward Gibbon's view of the Christians as instigators of the fall of Rome. "In seeking to expose the error and corruption of the early Christian world, Nixey comes close to veiling the pre-Christian Romans’ own barbarous qualities," he said.[2]

    Johannes (Hans) van Oort, a Dutch Professor of Patristics and Gnostic Studies at Radboud University, states that Nixey "is replaying her hand with her fierce tone and gross exaggeration" and that her book "lacks any historical structure". Van Oort also writes that Nixey doesn't understand some historical contexts and that she "makes some serious historical slips".[7]

    Levi Roach, a medievalist of University of Exeter, states that Nixey's book "does not seek to present a balanced picture" and that it is "a book of generalisations". He also states, "Nixey ends up endorsing the long-debunked view of the Middle Ages as a period of blind faith and intellectual stagnation".[8]

    Richard Tada, PhD in ancient Greek and Byzantine history from the University of Washington, states that Nixey ventured "into areas where she is clearly out of her depth". Consequently, her book is "a shoddy work that fails to make the grade even as a polemic". One of Nixey's attempts to blame Christians for the supposedly destruction of classical world is "simply dishonest", where she misrepresents both primary and secondary sources.[9]

    Averil Cameron, professor emerita of Late Antique and Byzantine History at the University of Oxford, points out that Nixey is promoting some outdated teachings and finds Nixey's book without nuance and counter-arguments, and states that Nixey's readers would never know that there are academic works that contradict her narrative if they only get their information from her.[3] On Twitter Cameron called Nixey's book "a travesty".[10]

    :::::

    This is the kind of work you endorse, and the kind of work that has filled your little drug-addled mind with fairy stories about Christianity and pagan Rome.

    It also demonstrates that you have poor judgment and that you choose sources, however dubious, simply because they conform to your false beliefs.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn’t educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there’s a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.
     
    The are often this way with you, because you have a habit of choosing flawed sources to support your silly beliefs. Because respectable sources don't support your ridiculous and ignorant beliefs.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behaviour, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.
     
    TL is better at that than you are. And your claims of denial are actually an example of your use of the defense mechanism of projection, you ascribe to me what is true of you.

    Now let's examine your use of denial:

    The first ten centuries of Christianity were the Dark Age.
     

    “The first translations[of Almagast] into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma’mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy,
     
    So Arab Muslims received their knowledge from Christians. It was a gift from the Christian Byzantine Emperor in the 9th century.

    And Western Christians later received it from Eastern Christians.

    So you are denial about the Christian role in preserving ancient knowledge, just as you are in denial of Christian scientific and technological advancements.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”

    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
     
    And you are naturally too stupid to understand why I quoted that.

    And again - projection. You had appealed to the authority of the psychopath Timothy Leary, remember? But you project this approach onto others.

    So we have seen that you engage in two defense mechanisms - denial and projection.

    https://www.uptodate.com/contents/image/print?imageKey=PSYCH%2F81648

    Primitive defense mechanisms:

    Projection, denial and this one too:

    Schizoid fantasy - Retreating into one's private, internal world to avoid anxiety about interpersonal situations

    Your drug abuse helps you with that one, right? We don't know the second part but the first part is clear.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her [Hypatia] , “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

     

    While I deny no facts, you are in denial of these facts. And by denying these facts you repeat a false attribution to Christianity for her death:

    The contemporary Christian historian Sokrates Scholastikos (lived c. 380 – after c. 439) praises her in the highest possible terms in Book VII, Chapter 15 of his Ecclesiastical History.

    Even the bishop of Alexandria, Theophilos, who was known throughout the Roman Empire as a vehement opponent of paganism, did not trouble her. In fact, as best as we can tell, his disposition towards her seems to have been more-or-less favorable. He gave her free reign to teach and establish connections. He even appointed one of Hypatia’s own students, Synesios, as bishop of Ptolemaïs, a major city in the region of Kyrenaïka in North Africa.

    Synesios remained a lifelong friend of Hypatia’s and they remained in close contact even after his appointment as bishop. Seven of his letters addressed to her are extant. Unfortunately, none of her letters to him have survived.



    The events leading up to her death are all extremely complicated and involve plenty of riots, rivalries, and political intrigue. They are described by Hypatia’s contemporary, the Christian historian Sokrates Scholastikos, in Book VII of his Ecclesiastical History.

    In 412, Theophilos, the bishop of Alexandria who had been so tolerant towards Hypatia, died without having appointed a successor. A violent feud broke out between Theophilos’s young nephew Cyril and his archdeacon Timothy, both of whom claimed to be the rightful bishop. Cyril had a reputation as something of a hothead and the Novatianists in Alexandria threw their support behind Timothy.

    For three days, there was fighting and bloodshed in the streets. Finally, Cyril won and assumed the diocese. Cyril immediately set about obtaining revenge against all those who had supported his rival. In order to punish them for having sided with Timothy, Cyril shut down the Novatianists’ churches, confiscated their property, and stripped their bishop Theopemptos of all authority.

    Cyril as bishop does not seem to have set well with Hypatia and her allies. In his letters, Synesios speaks of Theophilos in glowing terms, but his attitude towards Cyril is noticeably icy. Only one letter from Synesios to Cyril has survived; it is very brief and its general tone can perhaps be guessed from the opening sentence: “Go, my brother Cyril, to your mother Church, from whom you have not been excommunicated, but only separated for a period which is measured according to that which your shortcomings deserve.”

    In 414 AD, a feud broke out between Cyril and the Jews of Alexandria over Cyril’s growing hegemony. A small group of Jews massacred a group of Christians after luring them out with false cries that a church was burning. In retaliation, Cyril closed down all the synagogues, confiscated all property belonging to Jews in the city, and expelled all the Jews themselves from Alexandria.

    This act outraged the Roman prefect Orestes, who was a recent convert to Christianity. Orestes, however, was not much of a strong leader, so his method of taking action was to write a scathing letter to Emperor Theodosios II complaining about Cyril’s behavior. The emperor did nothing and Cyril was positively outraged.

    A group of monks known as the parabalani, who were under Cyril’s authority and whose official purpose was to tend to the sick and bury the dead, came into Alexandria from the surrounding countryside. In practice, these monks basically functioned as Cyril’s personal thugs.

    The parabalani incited a riot against Orestes, accusing him of being a pagan, despite his own repeated insistence that he had converted to Christianity and been baptized in Constantinople. One of the monks named Ammonios attacked Orestes by hurling a stone at him, nearly killing him. Orestes had Ammonios publicly tortured to death to make an example for other would-be attackers.

    Cyril tried to have Ammonios proclaimed a martyr of the faith. This disgusted many Christians, who objected that Ammonios had not been killed for his faith; instead he had been executed for attempting to assassinate the Christian prefect. A large number of Christians in Alexandria simply longed for Cyril and Orestes to reconcile and for the feud to be over.

    Now, as it happened, Orestes was a close associate of Hypatia and, at this point, he began frequently consulting her for advice. The classical historian Edward J. Watts notes in his book City and School in Late Antique Athens and Alexandria that Orestes made a very shrewd political maneuver in picking Hypatia as his advisor because she was a relatively uncontroversial figure who was widely respected by both Christians and non-Christians alike.

    Rumors began to spread, however, claiming that Hypatia was deliberately trying to exacerbate the conflict and that she was actively trying to prevent Orestes from reconciling with Cyril. It is uncertain where these rumors originated from, but it is clear that the person with the most to gain from them would have been Cyril himself. These rumors may therefore have been an attempt by Cyril to undermine Hypatia’s reputation and weaken her alliance with Orestes.

    Whoever the source of these rumors may have been, they certainly prompted more violent action. One day in March 415 AD, while Hypatia was riding in her carriage, she was stopped by a vicious mob of Cyril’s supporters. They dragged her out of her carriage to a church where they stripped her and murdered her with roof tiles.

    ::::::::::

    The stories about [Aztec] mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies
     
    There you go again, with your denial.

    Such a primitive person. It's almost as if you were only recently made human, Sharikov?

    Historians recognize that Aztecs practiced mass human sacrifice and that it was central to their culture. Spaniards exaggerated the death toll by claiming up to 200,00 were killed per year, but historians report it was more likely 20,000 per year.

    Here is more material for you to deny:

    https://www.science.org/content/article/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

    Beginning in 2015, they discovered and excavated the remains of the skull rack and one of the towers underneath a colonial period house on the street that runs behind Mexico City's cathedral. (The other tower, they suspect, lies under the cathedral's back courtyard.) The scale of the rack and tower suggests they held thousands of skulls, testimony to an industry of human sacrifice unlike any other in the world...He and other researchers hope the skulls will clarify the role of large-scale human sacrifice in Mexica religion and culture—and whether, as scholars suspect, it played a key part in building their empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture

    Michael Harner, in his 1977 article The Enigma of Aztec Sacrifice, cited an estimate by Borah of the number of persons sacrificed in central Mexico in the 15th century as high as 250,000 per year which may have been one percent of the population.[24] Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl, a Mexica descendant and the author of Codex Ixtlilxochitl, estimated that one in five children of the Mexica subjects was killed annually. Victor Davis Hanson argues that a claim by Don Carlos Zumárraga of 20,000 per annum is "more plausible".

    “On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle.”

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    “Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.”
     
    The figure of 20,000 is likely an exaggeration according to the wikipedia page, but this Crusade was wrong. Though it was clearly driven as much by political reasons as by religious ones. It was a conflict between nobles and the French King:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade#Growth_of_Catharism

    On assuming the papacy in 1198, Pope Innocent III resolved to deal with the Cathars and sent a delegation of friars to the province of Languedoc to assess the situation. The Cathars of Languedoc were seen as not showing proper respect for the authority of the French king or the local Catholic Church, and their leaders were being protected by powerful nobles,[64] who had a clear interest in independence from the king.[65] At least in part for this reason, many powerful noblemen embraced Catharism despite making little attempt to follow its strict lifestyle restrictions.[66] In desperation, Innocent turned to Philip II of France, urging him to either force Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse to deal with the heresy or depose him militarily. By 1204, he offered to bless those willing to go on a military campaign against the Cathars with the same indulgence given to crusaders travelling to the Holy Land (the Fourth Crusade, in its late stages at the time, had not shown any signs of going in that direction). However, Philip was engaged in conflict with King John of England, and was unwilling to get involved in a separate conflict in the Languedoc. Hence, the plan stalled.[67]

    One of the most powerful noblemen, Raymond VI, did not openly embrace Cathar beliefs, but was sympathetic to Catharism and hostile to the French king.[16] He refused to assist the delegation. He was excommunicated in May 1207 and an interdict was placed on his lands.[16]

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light
     
    Projection: tell us again how you hide from the light by focusing inward with your hallucinogens.

    "Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves."

    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    “The Qur’an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand’. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur’an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.
     
    It is not a lie. Your own quote proves what I said it true. Re-read the bolded part.

    Christians were forced into subservience.

    And you are in denial about Muslim enslavement of Christians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

    Through the Middle Ages up until the early modern period,[53] a major source of slaves sent to Muslim lands was Central and Eastern Europe. Slaves of Northwestern Europe were also favored. The slaves captured were sent to Islamic lands like Spain and Egypt through France and Venice. Prague served as a major centre for castration of Slavic captives.[54][55] The Emirate of Bari also served as an important port for trade of such slaves.[56] After the Byzantine Empire and Venice blocked Arab merchants from European ports, Arabs started importing slaves from the Caucasus and Caspian Sea regions, shipping them off as far east as Transoxiana in Central Asia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean%E2%80%93Nogai_slave_raids_in_Eastern_Europe

    For over three centuries, the military of the Crimean Khanate and the Nogai Horde conducted slave raids primarily in lands controlled by Russia[a] and Poland-Lithuania[b] as well as other territories, often under the sponsorship of the Ottoman Empire.

    Their main purpose was the capture of slaves,[1] most of whom were exported to the Ottoman slave markets in Constantinople or elsewhere in the Middle East.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

    The Barbary slave trade involved slave markets on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman states of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and 19th century. The Ottoman states in North Africa were nominally under Ottoman suzerainty.

    European slaves were acquired by Barbary pirates in slave raids on ships and by raids on coastal towns from Italy to the Netherlands, Ireland and the southwest of Britain, as far north as Iceland and into the Eastern Mediterranean.
  141. @Here Be Dragon
    @AP

    For some reason, the quotation tags disappeared from the text below the More tag, and it made the entire comment hard to read and understand, so let me post it once again and perhaps without the More tag, it is long so please excuse me for it. Let us hope it will work this time.

    This comment is the same as the one above it, so disregard the former.


    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.
     
    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn't support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there's a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.
     
    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can't do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my groin in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behaviour, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar described the world as being like an egg covered with a hard shell – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.
     
    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    "The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma'mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175."

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”
     
    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people's position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there's a reputation to consider – and what's more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.
     
    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    "The author is a young woke New Yorker" – exactly as has been said, the person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.
     
    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    "A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others."

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who "attack all the sacraments of the Church" and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    "Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins."

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don't they sell it, or didn't they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    "On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle."

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    "Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it."

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it's in the Bible – "when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them" – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, "thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire."

    And it is never a wrong deed, "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.
     
    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    "The Qur'an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand'. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur'an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, "As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries."

    Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected persons.

    You are a liar; but as a Christian, must follow the teaching of Christ, and not of a Pope. Not even of the Church, and not of the priesthood, but of Christ himself; and his teaching that is in his book, and his book is straightforward and clear-cut.

    He said, "Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    So be it.

    Replies: @A123, @AP

    The Qur’an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book.

    Not even close. The Quran instructs Muslims to exploit, steal from, enslave, and murder Infidels. The 2nd pillar of Islam is — Taqiyya — Thou Shalt Lie to the Infidel. (1)

    Quran (16:106) – Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

    Quran (3:28) – This verse instructs believers not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves” against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

    Quran (9:3) – “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals – see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

    Quran (66:2) – “Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths…” For today’s reader, the circumstances for betraying your word are not specified, leaving this verse open to interpretation. According to Yusuf Ali in his commentary: “if your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow.” (Presumably, whatever advances the cause of Islam would qualify as ‘doing good’).

    Quran (40:28) – A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

    Quran (2:225) – “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts” (see also 5:89)

    Quran (3:54) – “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means ‘cunning,’ ‘guile’ and ‘deceit’. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

    This is only a tiny sample of Muslim dogmatic loathing for the children of God. The stated goal of their Unholy Book is the genocide of all Christians.

    The idea that the followers of the anti-Christ Muhammad and the followers of Jesus Christ are both in “The Book” is 100% true. Muslims are the spawn of Evil…Begat by Satan/Allah/Lucifer, the eternal enemy of God.

    It really is that simple.

    PEACE 😇
    _________

    (1) https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

    • Replies: @Here Be Dragon
    @A123


    The Quran instructs Muslims to exploit, steal from, enslave, and murder Infidels. The 2nd pillar of Islam is — Taqiyya — Thou Shalt Lie to the Infidel.
     
    You intentionally distort the meaning and demonize the entire teaching. Nowhere does it say anything like what you are implying here.

    The truth is, lying is considered a sin, and therefore a Muslim should not lie. However, if his life is in danger, he is permitted to tell a lie if that is concerned with his identity and faith.

    https://corpus.quran.com/

    Here is what is said in Sura 3:28:

    "Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of the guardianship of Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of retribution from Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming."

    So, the meaning actually is that a Muslim should not lie, if it is not necessary, and should not forget that doing so is a sin, even when it is. He should not prefer a company of non-Muslim people, as it this case he may be forced to lie.

    There is nothing horrible is the other verses that you mentioned. The first five are about the permission to lie when a person's life is in danger, and it doesn't relate to secular matters. He is permitted to deny that he is a Muslim, eat pork and drink alcohol, etc.

    A prominent scholar said in his commentaries, "Safeguarding of a Muslim’s life is a mandatory obligation that should be observed; and that lying is permissible when the shedding of a Muslim’s blood is at stake."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

    As for the rest, the verse 2:225 says, "Allah does not impose blame upon you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He imposes blame upon you for what your hearts have earned."

    The meaning is, the true intentions are more important than what a man promises.

    Compare, for example, with the New Testament, Matthew 5:28. "That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." – in essence, the same thought.

    And in another verse, Matthew 23:27 – "You appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones."

    The meaning is not different.

    Then, in Sura 3:54, here is what is read: "And they planned and Allah also planned, and Allah is the best of planners." The word planned can be translated as plot or conspire.

    But not in any way does it imply what you are saying.

    Compare with Proverbs 19:21, "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand."

    Even a better rendition of the same thought is in the Latin phrase "Homo proponit, sed Deus disponit" – a man proposes, and God disposes.

    The meaning is not different.

    So, what makes you say these things and accuse them of this and that, when in reality it is not even close to the truth, and is as a matter of fact a lot closer to the Bible?

    This is only a tiny sample of Muslim dogmatic loathing for the children of God. The stated goal of their Unholy Book is the genocide of all Christians.
     
    The same way we an say that the stated goal of the New Testament is a genocide of all mankind, the entire human race. Does it not say in the Apocalypse that only 144 thousand will be spared in the end?

    Revelation 7:3-4,

    "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

    And no matter what you have been told, believe me, by the children of Israel they did not mean any Gentiles. The next verses mention every one of the twelve tribes, and point out that from every tribe twelve thousand people will be chosen and spared.

    "Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand," etc.

    Revelation 14:1-5,

    "Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

    Do you belong to any of the twelve tribes? Are you a virgin? Have you never lied? The answer is probably no, and that means that you are not on the list. Especially considering that you are intentionally spreading lies.

    Muslims are the spawn of Evil. Begat by Satan/Allah/Lucifer, the eternal enemy of God. It really is that simple.
     
    No, it is not.

    For the Catholic Church, Lucifer is Christ. For the Orthodox Church, Lucifer is Satan. For the Muslims, Allah is the Lord. For the Jews, the Lord is Allah – it's the same word.

    What cult are you a member of?

    You are speaking like a Christian, but a Christian should not tell a lie, because the devil is the father of it.

    And even though most people do lie, you do it with a passion.
  142. How far would the Habsburgs have gotten with embryo selection, if they used it in each generation, but still married each other?

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    Since they perform infanticide they already perform embryo selection for all practical purposes. If you think looking at the embryo and then selecting instead of waiting another 10 months to make the decision makes any difference at all I believe your genetics is profoundly erroneous.

    Replies: @songbird

  143. AP says:
    @Here Be Dragon
    @AP

    For some reason, the quotation tags disappeared from the text below the More tag, and it made the entire comment hard to read and understand, so let me post it once again and perhaps without the More tag, it is long so please excuse me for it. Let us hope it will work this time.

    This comment is the same as the one above it, so disregard the former.


    Are you serious, or making fun of yourself? These are books a rebellious 15 year would find compelling. And not even a bright one.
     
    None of the two books is familiar to me, but he asked me for a source and perhaps in these books he may find it. Such a book must have a lot of references.

    But have you read any of them?

    Of course, not. You are simply doing what you do – negating anything that doesn't support your belief, without even looking at it.

    Your commentaries are the same every time – either a person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration, or there's a respectable opinion of a reputable critic, who said that it should not be taken into consideration, or that a lot of people consider it not worthy of being taken into consideration.

    At least we know how your little mind was twisted. Neither author is a scholar. One is a so-called “researcher, writer, and public speaker living in the San Francisco”, another is a journalist with a Classics degree.
     
    And what are you?

    Are you a researcher, a writer, and do you have a Classics degree?

    You are a nobody with no knowledge of anything, and your infantile and childish efforts to look down on me continue to amuse me.

    You can't do this, son. You are too short. Look straight ahead, and you will see my groin in front of you.

    You are the kind of person so ignorant of his behaviour, that he can be used as an example for teaching people about the theory of denial. That is a defense mechanism.

    A person will either consider that something is not true, or that it is true but is not important, or that it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it, or that it is important but is the right thing to do, in spite of the evidence that it is not. Your entire reasoning is an example of this – negation of the truth.

    The 7th-century Armenian scholar described the world as being like an egg covered with a hard shell – it was known in Medieval Europe that the Earth was a sphere.
     
    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Ptolemy not only described the Earth as a sphere in his Almagest. He presented it will a calculation of the distance between the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun; he explained the precession of the equinoxes, and the orbits of other planets; he described how to determine solar and lunar eclipses, and compiled a star catalog. His work was a compendium of the entire Greek astronomy.

    And it was common knowledge in Greece. A lot of other philosophers mentioned the fact that the Earth was a sphere – including Aristotle, whom the Church appreciated – but none of them explained it with a complete and irrefutable evidence, as Ptolemy did. He presented it with elaborate spherical geometry, a method of determination of latitude, etc. His book was the foundation of the modern astronomy.

    Most importantly, he postulated that the cosmos was infinite, and that in relation to the distance from the Earth to the stars, our world should be considered nothing more, than a mathematical point. Such an explanation of cosmology was in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church, and that was the reason for burning the copies of his eight-volume masterpiece, everywhere throughout Europe, until no copies were left.

    After that the knowledge of the universe was reduced to these childish ideas about an egg in a shell, and rudimentary fractures of what it had been, and in a great detail described, explained and proven. The loss of the Almagest interrupted the development of science and education for a thousand years, and had it not been rediscovered in the East, that period of total ignorance could have lasted a lot longer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Impact

    "The first translations into Arabic were made in the 9th century, with two separate efforts, one sponsored by the caliph Al-Ma'mun, who received a copy as a condition of peace with the Byzantine emperor. Sahl ibn Bishr is thought to be the first Arabic translator.

    No Latin translation was made in the Ancient Rome nor the Medieval West before the 12th century. Henry Aristippus made the first Latin translation directly from a Greek copy, but it was not as influential as a later translation into Latin made in Spain by Gerard of Cremona from the Arabic, finished in 1175."

    The Almagest was written in the 2nd century.

    “Largely ignored in ancient Athens, Democritus is said to have been disliked so much by Plato that the latter wished all of his books burned.”
     
    Your typical defence mechanism – an appeal to authority.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    You are a sheep, who is and will be led. Having neither the guts, nor the brain to form an opinion of your own, you refer to other people's position, as if it matters to me as well, or is supposed to matter, because there's a reputation to consider – and what's more important, than a reputation? You are a child.

    She [Hypatia] was tortured and murdered by a Christian mob, but she was also friendly and close with Christian aristocrats; hers was not a religious killing but a class-based one.
     
    A classic: admit both the fact and seriousness, but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else; or in my own words, it is important but something or someone else is responsible for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(Freud)

    "The author is a young woke New Yorker" – exactly as has been said, the person isn't educated enough to be taken into consideration. You are a textbook on psychological pathology.

    How does it refute the fact, that a Coptic bishop wrote about her, “there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through her Satanic wiles.”

    One can’t blame the Spanish, who encountered mass human sacrifice on an unimaginable scale, in the service of gods who can be described as demons, for burning the books about those demons.
     
    Keep it going. The classical technique of negation, as has been described earlier – it is important, but is the right thing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    "A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact, for oneself or others."

    The stories about mass human sacrifice, on an unimaginable scale, are lies – the same lies, as the stories about the vile race of the Muslims, who worship demons, and the Templar knights, who worshiped Satan, and the Cathars, who "attack all the sacraments of the Church" and therefore must be burned.

    Here is what Bernardo Gui, a sadistic maniac, who wrote a guide on interrogation of heretics, said about the Cathars.

    "Of baptism, they assert that the water cannot sanctify the spirit, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as they sell the confession of sins."

    So, is anything of that incorrect – can water sanctify the spirit, or don't they sell it, or didn't they sell indulgences?

    The Cathars were the true Christians, in the literal meaning of it – they followed the teaching of the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, and the Church wanted them dead, because the teaching of Christ is not the same, as that of the Church.

    During the massacre the Cistercian abbot-commander, said, "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

    "On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, wherein over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous pyre at the prat dels cremats – field of the burned – near the foot of the castle."

    The entire priesthood were burned at the stake.

    Later Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot, who was the commander of the Crusade, described the massacre in his letter to Pope, stating this:

    "Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it."

    On every occasion the Church clergy presented their crimes as an act of divine vengeance, and of course, most Christians readily believed it, because it's in the Bible – "when the Lord shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them" – Deuteronomy 7.

    No matter whom they murder, slaughter, or burn, it is the right thing to do, "thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire."

    And it is never a wrong deed, "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord: the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." The chosen people can do no wrong, the Church therefore is right.

    And the Christian preachers continue to preach the very same lies even now, and of course the flock, as they call the people who believe them, will continue to believe them, and support them, denying the truth, and the logic, and common sense, because their creed is a lie, and the truth is an enemy of the lie, as is common sense, and reason.

    You and everyone else, who considers himself a Christian, are insane, are deranged, and irrational; the moles, hiding from the light.

    You are a cult member, and the leaders of that cult are maniacs, and have been from the beginning. You are a participant in a genocidal freak show, considered a religion, a cult that has committed innumerable crimes, such as mass murder, torture, and child molestation; and these crimes are not a legend, but a historical fact.

    Christians [ in the Muslim countries] were forced into subservience or kept and traded as slaves.
     
    One more lie from a pious Christian.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

    "The Qur'an distinguishes between the monotheistic People of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians, and others on the one hand and idolaters on the other hand'. There are certain kinds of restrictions that apply to idolaters but not to People of the Book.

    The Qur'an told Muslims to discuss the common points between Muslims and non-Muslims; it directs Muslims not to fight with people of the Book. Christian and Jewish communities who had submitted to Muslim rule were allowed to worship in their own way and follow their own law, and were given a degree of self-government.

    The Syriac Patriarch wrote in his correspondence, "As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and sain