The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection$
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersRussian Reaction Blog
Open Thread 173
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • B
Show CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Here’s a new Open Thread for the Karlin commenting community, jump started with a relocated comment from the previous thread.

— Ron Unz

 
• Tags: Blogging, Open Thread 
Hide 1079 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Intended to ask a question about China’s strategic thinking while things are happening in Ukraine, but realized there’s a NatSec law. We’ll probably end up on opposing sides of war in weeks

    • Replies: @AnotherTitus
    @Yellowface Anon

    Are you preparing to defect to the UK or are you anticipating Russia trading China away for a non-aggression deal with the US?

  2. There was an odd post on a blog called mideast soccer by some British geopolitics strategy guy based in Singapore which I thought was intriguing. On the subject of Turkish and Russian diplomacy on the Kazakstan domestic situation last week. It is short. The fellow makes a big deal of a Turkish official displaying a map of Turkish linguistic greatness.

    The map:

    The blog post:

    https://mideastsoccer.blogspot.com/2022/01/kazakhstan-like-ukraine-spotlights.html

    I am mystified what this has to do with soccer and I wonder if the Turks really call it that. All the Euros I know call it football.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Megalomania. Looks like a teenage dream. There are more Turks in Germany (and probably half a dozen other Western European countries) than in Syria, Bulgaria, Kosovo (?), Crimea (about 200k, or 13% of the population, not much to write home about). About 20-25% of Turkey has a Kurdish majority - Kurds speak an Indo-European language.

    They dream, they always have. Then they get clobbered because they don't understand reality. There is a price for delusions: Erdogan, Zelensky, Blinken, that weird Norwegian guy, and most Poles, it could be unpleasant when they are forced to wake up.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Not Raul
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Interesting map. It looks like they consider Kurdish to be a dialect of Turkish, which it isn’t.

    If Russia and Turkey go to war, the Kurds could tie down a lot of Turkish troops.

  3. @Emil Nikola Richard
    There was an odd post on a blog called mideast soccer by some British geopolitics strategy guy based in Singapore which I thought was intriguing. On the subject of Turkish and Russian diplomacy on the Kazakstan domestic situation last week. It is short. The fellow makes a big deal of a Turkish official displaying a map of Turkish linguistic greatness.

    The map:

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cjE1eTp6yWU/T27cwVFmToI/AAAAAAAAHlc/b_PzzR-3MsQ/s1600/turkish1.jpg

    The blog post:

    https://mideastsoccer.blogspot.com/2022/01/kazakhstan-like-ukraine-spotlights.html

    I am mystified what this has to do with soccer and I wonder if the Turks really call it that. All the Euros I know call it football.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Not Raul

    Megalomania. Looks like a teenage dream. There are more Turks in Germany (and probably half a dozen other Western European countries) than in Syria, Bulgaria, Kosovo (?), Crimea (about 200k, or 13% of the population, not much to write home about). About 20-25% of Turkey has a Kurdish majority – Kurds speak an Indo-European language.

    They dream, they always have. Then they get clobbered because they don’t understand reality. There is a price for delusions: Erdogan, Zelensky, Blinken, that weird Norwegian guy, and most Poles, it could be unpleasant when they are forced to wake up.

    • Agree: Mikhail, Not Raul
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    rice for delusions: Erdogan,
     
    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan's construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thl-XkLATBE

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey's economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey's economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Yahya, @Aedib, @Yevardian

  4. https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/fertility-as-the-final-boss-in-chinese

    Chinazi, but unironically (and certainly with the racial aspect magnified vis-a-vis Uyghurs):

    Nazi population policy: pronatalism and antinatalism during the Third Reich from Maria-Sophia Quine’s
    Population Politics in Twentieth Century Europe (it’s available on LibGen). The tone is a bit feminist and woke but still very useful.

  5. @Beckow
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Megalomania. Looks like a teenage dream. There are more Turks in Germany (and probably half a dozen other Western European countries) than in Syria, Bulgaria, Kosovo (?), Crimea (about 200k, or 13% of the population, not much to write home about). About 20-25% of Turkey has a Kurdish majority - Kurds speak an Indo-European language.

    They dream, they always have. Then they get clobbered because they don't understand reality. There is a price for delusions: Erdogan, Zelensky, Blinken, that weird Norwegian guy, and most Poles, it could be unpleasant when they are forced to wake up.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    rice for delusions: Erdogan,

    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan’s construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey’s economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey’s economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    It looks like Erdogan is trying to extend Turkey's influence beyond the Stans, and he's offering Ukraine great moral support by directly warning Putin not to start any more military provocations there:


    You cannot handle these things by saying 'I will invade something, I will take it',” Turkish media quoted Erdogan as saying. “I don't see Russia's invasion of Ukraine as a realistic option because it is not an ordinary country. Ukraine is a powerful country,” said Erdogan, who backs Ukraine's NATO aspirations.
     
    https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/01/18/Turkey-s-Erdogan-warns-Russia-against-invading-Ukraine-

    Replies: @Beckow, @German_reader

    , @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I always wonder why Israel has such bad marketing with the leftists in Western Europe, when a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.
     
    Israel is seen as "white" because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are "brown" because they are oppressed. It doesn't matter if it's a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    Another explanation is that Israel's key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenazim. I doubt your average person around the world knows Israel's population is majority Mizrahi/Arab. They are mostly only exposed to images of Netanyahu and the like. Whereas the typical Palestinian photo is of working-class protestors; who tend to be more brown than white. If the media were to put a spotlight on the Palestinian upper class; then perhaps they would be seen as white not brown.


    Why is that? Is class in the Arab society of Levantine region, associated with lower mixing with Bedouin or something like that?
     
    There is virtually no study conducted on the correlation of skin color/phenotypic appearance and class in the Arab world. I don't imagine it would be of interest to many scholars; if it were it's probably not high on the priority list. I can only speak of my own experience in Egypt; where most people in my circle tend to look like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvRVSuDMc8&ab_channel=ON

    Whereas in the lower classes they look more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k0_9Y1XaC8&ab_channel=RT

    There's some overlap; but mostly they may as well be part of a different race. It's very peculiar and i'm not sure how to explain it. Ostensibly, both the upper and lower class are part of the same nationality and religion; so they should have similar appearances. But perhaps the genetic make-up is different. 23andMe put me down as 1-2% sub-Saharan (SSA) admixed; which is much lower than the Egyptian average of 10-20% SSA. I am somewhat skeptical of my 23andme results since it showed I had no peninsular Arab ancestry; which I know for a fact is not true. But I'm not surprised by the low SSA results; I don't have any visible negroid characteristics. Neither do most people in the upper and middle class. A fair number of people in the lower class do though. In the upper class; you'd also find some Northern European-looking dirty blondes with green or blue eyes - a legacy of the Circassian slave trade during the Islamic period. My friend has that phenotype; she thought she had Italian genes due to her families origins in Alexandria; though I pointed out it's more likely to be from the Caucasus region in Southern Russia. She then said "oh that's why people tell me I look Russian". Most dirty-blondes in Egypt are unaware of their slave background; it was too long ago.

    Anyway, all of the above is also applicable to the Levant; though they don't have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt. This is an middle-to-upper class choir in Damascus:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T661Or1NuPA&ab_channel=ZiadNajem

    They look almost uniformly "white"; whereas I'm sure the working class would have more "browns" so to speak. It's possible this is due to peninsular Arab admixture; though i'm very skeptical of that explanation. Most Syrians/Palestinians; even the brown-looking ones, look nothing like Saudi Arabians. The facial features are too different; their brown skin also tends to be of a noticeably different shade - lighter (more on this below).


    It doesn’t seem like this in the Arabian Peninsula.
     
    One plausible explanation is that class stratification is not as pronounced in Saudi Arabia, where complex civilization only took a hold very recently. The selective process would not have had time to make a dent. Social stratification is associated with complex civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant are some of the oldest civilizations; naturally social stratification is pronounced and inter-class marriage is discouraged. My cousin's family once cut him off for a few years for marrying a lower class woman; though they later reconciled.

    I know I studied with Saudi classmate who were very dark.
     
    The median Saudi Arabian is dark - very dark. Here's a video of Saudis performing a sword dancing routine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Their skin color is closer to Pakistanis than to Arabs in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria etc. Even supposedly Bedouin Palestinians are noticeably lighter:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssTcNpaRTQE&ab_channel=waeldeab

    They also have different facial features which is readily known to anyone familiar with Saudi Arabians. This is why I shake my head when people claim the Arab conquests replaced the pre-existing conquered populations in Egypt and the Levant; it's obvious to me just going off phenotypes that isn't true. My observations have been confirmed by several genetic studies showing genetic differentiation between Saudis and Arabized Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, Maghrebis etc. The Arabs didn't have the numbers nor the intention to replace their subjects.

    Replies: @A123, @Dmitry, @songbird

    , @Aedib
    @Dmitry

    I can see in the video that Erdogan does not look very Turkic (at least compared to Nursultan). He should better discover his Anatolian roots rather than fantasizing about a Turanic empire.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Yevardian
    @Dmitry

    Honestly, in the medium to long-term, I still see Turkey's future as being very bright.
    The Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base (Iran is the only partial exception, but its industry is entirely autarkic), rich natural resources (with nearby gas/oil owned or disputed by very weak neighbors, or ethnic kin), a still vibrant national culture shielded by growing anti-Americanism, a young population still easily swayed by jingoism, with its constant aggression and 'human-rights' abuses being shielded by the fig-leaf of NATO membership.

    Obviously, I don't say this much joy, given my own background, but I think Turkey will continue to remain a model of inspiration for many Muslims worldwide for sometime. The whole world is entering, or about to enter, a huge economic downturn anyway, so Turkey's gov can easily shift blame for its crappy fiscal management.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @Dmitry

  6. @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    rice for delusions: Erdogan,
     
    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan's construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thl-XkLATBE

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey's economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey's economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Yahya, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    It looks like Erdogan is trying to extend Turkey’s influence beyond the Stans, and he’s offering Ukraine great moral support by directly warning Putin not to start any more military provocations there:

    You cannot handle these things by saying ‘I will invade something, I will take it’,” Turkish media quoted Erdogan as saying. “I don’t see Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as a realistic option because it is not an ordinary country. Ukraine is a powerful country,” said Erdogan, who backs Ukraine’s NATO aspirations.

    https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/01/18/Turkey-s-Erdogan-warns-Russia-against-invading-Ukraine-

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    What exactly does "moral support" mean in a war? Holding coat for Zelensky is he runs away?

    Erdogan is a dirty player, his interest is purely in creating discord between Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Azeris, etc...he hopes to benefit from any created chaos. Otherwise, Turkey is quite poor and can't compete head to head. They cannot take on Russia.

    Too many would benefit from a Russian-Ukie bloodbath - the blood would be on the Kiev side. So they stir it on. But what is at stake is whether Ukraine will be a large military base on the Russian border run by Washington. That's the plan and Russia s opposed. Ask yourself only two questions:

    - How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
    - How important is it for Russia to prevent it?

    Whatever happens, I don't think the plan to have the Nato bases in Ukraine will happen. Something else will.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

    , @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Erdogan is pretty much an Islamic fundamentalist with an extensive record of supporting jihadi head-choppers and threatening Greece/insulting various EU states (and trying to utilize the Turkish diaspora for his goals). Not sure if such "friends" will do Ukraine any good, and if he supports NATO membership for Ukraine there's definitely some very dubious agenda behind it. If anything, Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

    Replies: @AP, @Svidomyatheart, @Mr. Hack

  7. They also have this habit of travelling in large groups so it is striking when one sees a dozen or so walking about (speaking Spanish!) and they are all short.

    Fair enough. That didn’t occur to me. I can’t even remember the last time I walked around in a large pack, so I’d sort of forgotten it was even a thing.

    If you are a normal height man in Europe, go to Spain and can experience what it is like to be an awkward tall person, looking above the surrounding small dark peoples’ hair.

    Matra was talking about seeing them “in European cities,” not in Spain itself.

    And “awkward tall” – really? I am 5’11, which is only slightly above average. I’ve spent a lot of time in Thailand and I would have been taller than most people there, but it certainly never felt “awkward” in any way.

    I guess I don’t really pay much attention to height. Maybe it’s because, growing up, I was used to being one of the shortest two or three kids in every class until I was like 15, and this experience somehow “imprinted” me, so that now that I’m taller than average I don’t really feel it.

    Well, I don’t know if that’s the actual reason, but it’s true that I hardly register it when I am taller than someone. The only exception is one friend I had who was seriously short, and people would sometimes make comments about his shortness and then I would notice that shit, yeah he really is. But even that didn’t feel “awkward.”

    • Replies: @Matra
    @silviosilver


    Matra was talking about seeing them “in European cities,” not in Spain itself.
     
    I was referring to tourists from Spain who, presumably, represent a cross section of the country. Foreigners could get a false impression of Italians due to southern Italians - the ones more likely to live abroad - being generally shorter and darker than those in the north. I don't know what the situation in Spain is: are Cantabrians & Galicians taller and lighter those in Andalusia and even Valencia? I don't know enough about the country to say.
  8. When there is conflict, gasbags and self-promoters are never far away.

    Not to be outdone…

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • LOL: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Thulean Friend

    That Scot UK defence minister got taken down good here:

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/if-the-russians-were-in-scotland/

    , @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend

    The British defence secretary sounds like a total idiot with his ridiculous posturing.
    This is just bizarre:


    and not in anyway a perspective that justifies both the occupation of Crimea (in the same way Russia occupied Crimea in 1783 in defiance of the Russo-Turkish Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji in 1774)
     
    Sounds almost like he thinks an injustice was done to the Ottomans and their slave-raiding Crimean Tatar vassals.
    Also annoying how he frames Russian claims on Ukraine as "ethnonationalism" and goes off on weird tangents about Britain having come into existence as a "civic nation of many peoples, origins and ethnicities". I suppose that shows how internalized the multiculti dogma has already become even among Tories.
    (lots of other issues as well of course, claiming that NATO is "purely defensive" is a joke after Kosovo, Afghanistan and Libya).

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Thulean Friend

    These delusional idiots actually believe that they are a great power. Russia could annihilate them in half an hour. Germany is getting realistic.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/german-navy-chief-quits-after-saying-putin-deserves-respect-over-ukraine

    So is France, Donbass & Crimea are gone forever.

    Replies: @German_reader

  9. @Thulean Friend
    When there is conflict, gasbags and self-promoters are never far away.

    https://twitter.com/BHL/status/1483186613052129282

    Not to be outdone...


    https://twitter.com/ArtyomLukin/status/1483359090474733570

    Replies: @Mikhail, @German_reader, @Grahamsno(G64)

    That Scot UK defence minister got taken down good here:

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/if-the-russians-were-in-scotland/

  10. Excellent Tucker Carlson segment:

    • Agree: Mikel
    • Thanks: Not Raul
  11. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend
    When there is conflict, gasbags and self-promoters are never far away.

    https://twitter.com/BHL/status/1483186613052129282

    Not to be outdone...


    https://twitter.com/ArtyomLukin/status/1483359090474733570

    Replies: @Mikhail, @German_reader, @Grahamsno(G64)

    The British defence secretary sounds like a total idiot with his ridiculous posturing.
    This is just bizarre:

    and not in anyway a perspective that justifies both the occupation of Crimea (in the same way Russia occupied Crimea in 1783 in defiance of the Russo-Turkish Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji in 1774)

    Sounds almost like he thinks an injustice was done to the Ottomans and their slave-raiding Crimean Tatar vassals.
    Also annoying how he frames Russian claims on Ukraine as “ethnonationalism” and goes off on weird tangents about Britain having come into existence as a “civic nation of many peoples, origins and ethnicities”. I suppose that shows how internalized the multiculti dogma has already become even among Tories.
    (lots of other issues as well of course, claiming that NATO is “purely defensive” is a joke after Kosovo, Afghanistan and Libya).

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @German_reader

    Related:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5127180

  12. @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    rice for delusions: Erdogan,
     
    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan's construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thl-XkLATBE

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey's economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey's economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Yahya, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    I always wonder why Israel has such bad marketing with the leftists in Western Europe, when a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.

    Israel is seen as “white” because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are “brown” because they are oppressed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    Another explanation is that Israel’s key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenazim. I doubt your average person around the world knows Israel’s population is majority Mizrahi/Arab. They are mostly only exposed to images of Netanyahu and the like. Whereas the typical Palestinian photo is of working-class protestors; who tend to be more brown than white. If the media were to put a spotlight on the Palestinian upper class; then perhaps they would be seen as white not brown.

    [MORE]

    Why is that? Is class in the Arab society of Levantine region, associated with lower mixing with Bedouin or something like that?

    There is virtually no study conducted on the correlation of skin color/phenotypic appearance and class in the Arab world. I don’t imagine it would be of interest to many scholars; if it were it’s probably not high on the priority list. I can only speak of my own experience in Egypt; where most people in my circle tend to look like this:

    Whereas in the lower classes they look more like this:

    There’s some overlap; but mostly they may as well be part of a different race. It’s very peculiar and i’m not sure how to explain it. Ostensibly, both the upper and lower class are part of the same nationality and religion; so they should have similar appearances. But perhaps the genetic make-up is different. 23andMe put me down as 1-2% sub-Saharan (SSA) admixed; which is much lower than the Egyptian average of 10-20% SSA. I am somewhat skeptical of my 23andme results since it showed I had no peninsular Arab ancestry; which I know for a fact is not true. But I’m not surprised by the low SSA results; I don’t have any visible negroid characteristics. Neither do most people in the upper and middle class. A fair number of people in the lower class do though. In the upper class; you’d also find some Northern European-looking dirty blondes with green or blue eyes – a legacy of the Circassian slave trade during the Islamic period. My friend has that phenotype; she thought she had Italian genes due to her families origins in Alexandria; though I pointed out it’s more likely to be from the Caucasus region in Southern Russia. She then said “oh that’s why people tell me I look Russian”. Most dirty-blondes in Egypt are unaware of their slave background; it was too long ago.

    Anyway, all of the above is also applicable to the Levant; though they don’t have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt. This is an middle-to-upper class choir in Damascus:

    They look almost uniformly “white”; whereas I’m sure the working class would have more “browns” so to speak. It’s possible this is due to peninsular Arab admixture; though i’m very skeptical of that explanation. Most Syrians/Palestinians; even the brown-looking ones, look nothing like Saudi Arabians. The facial features are too different; their brown skin also tends to be of a noticeably different shade – lighter (more on this below).

    It doesn’t seem like this in the Arabian Peninsula.

    One plausible explanation is that class stratification is not as pronounced in Saudi Arabia, where complex civilization only took a hold very recently. The selective process would not have had time to make a dent. Social stratification is associated with complex civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant are some of the oldest civilizations; naturally social stratification is pronounced and inter-class marriage is discouraged. My cousin’s family once cut him off for a few years for marrying a lower class woman; though they later reconciled.

    I know I studied with Saudi classmate who were very dark.

    The median Saudi Arabian is dark – very dark. Here’s a video of Saudis performing a sword dancing routine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Their skin color is closer to Pakistanis than to Arabs in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria etc. Even supposedly Bedouin Palestinians are noticeably lighter:

    They also have different facial features which is readily known to anyone familiar with Saudi Arabians. This is why I shake my head when people claim the Arab conquests replaced the pre-existing conquered populations in Egypt and the Levant; it’s obvious to me just going off phenotypes that isn’t true. My observations have been confirmed by several genetic studies showing genetic differentiation between Saudis and Arabized Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, Maghrebis etc. The Arabs didn’t have the numbers nor the intention to replace their subjects.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Yahya


    Israel is seen as “white” because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are “brown” because they are oppressed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.
     
    That does capture the reality of the situation.

    The fact that language is misused in the region also contributes to the opacity and intractability of the conflict.

    Use of the term anti-Semitic to mean anti-Jewish is technically wrong. The distinction is not about Semitic ethnicity. However, it is so embedded in the common usage of discourse that it cannot be extracted.

    Another huge lingustic problem is that followers of the non-Palestininan Muslim religion are identified as Palestinian. Due to intentional linguistic damage, there is a side composed of "non-Palestinian Palestinians". This mislabeling as the exact opposite of their actual status makes rational discussions cumbersome. One has to repeatedly restate the conclusive evidence that Islam is not indigenous to Palestine.

    PEACE 😇
    , @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    median Saudi Arabian
     
    My experience of Saudi classmates is that they are seeming definitely a bit rednecks, although Saudis I met are charming.

    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.


    to the Levant; though they don’t have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt
     
    Isn't Egypt categorized also as Levant?

    In the Middle East, the urban population is settled in the cities or surrounding agriculture land. So, elites are also these settled populations.

    But the desert is transit zone, where Arab tribes constantly moving.

    If you think about Jerusalem, there are forests all over the West of Jerusalem. But if you look at Southern East wall of the city, it goes almost straight to the desert, and this desert continues all the way to Cairo.

    From Cairo to Jerusalem, all desert, with historically nomadic populations. Also in the other direction probably to Riyadh, the Bedouin feel they should be able to transit.

    Unlike settled agriculture and urban population, these tribes are historically transiting goods and people. I believe they will accept other nationalities for marriage, like African origin women. And nationalities like Cushites have been moving up to Sinai since ancient times.

    Bedouin are sending their young men to join the Israeli army, because they presumably saw it as useful to have alliances with local governments.

    Bedouin were presumably conscripted also in Egyptian and Jordanian army against Israel? So, they must have been fighting on both sides against each other during 1967 or 1973 wars.

    For comparison, even in the Russian Empire, the illiterate peasants had mostly no understanding of nationality as late as the early 20th century. But in the Russian Empire, peasants are mostly settled populations, rooted into a very local agriculture.

    Middle East, there is so much desert, that becomes a transit zone with nomadic population. Anyway, this will be the theory I present for why you could see settled, urban local elites could reflect more of the pre-Islamic population ethnicity. But the unsettled population reflects more wide movement across latitudes.


    Israel’s key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenaz
     
    Israel's politics is also idiotic in this area, how they promoted elitist aristocratic people like Isaac Herzog to be president (who is son of a president). It wouldn't have cost anything to have some more representative demographically, or even socioeconomically, president. They don't think about what kind of message they are saying to the world.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yahya

    , @songbird
    @Yahya


    Social stratification is associated with complex civilization.
     
    What I have heard is that among the Tuareg, they have caste. And the people with more recent slave ancestry (darker) are lower caste.

    It's interesting on a lot of levels. The Tuareg seem to be considered to be generally more negroid-looking than Berbers, but descended from Berbers. And the difference is attributed to the slave trade, which presumably was due to the introduction of the camel, and the highest caste seem to own all the camels, and I imagine have the least negroid admixture.

    It is almost like they weren't buying their own goods, or else they had multiple concubines and the wives inherited.

    Wikipedia seems to have a lot of detail on it. Surprisingly complex stratification for nomads:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#Social_stratification
  13. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend

    The British defence secretary sounds like a total idiot with his ridiculous posturing.
    This is just bizarre:


    and not in anyway a perspective that justifies both the occupation of Crimea (in the same way Russia occupied Crimea in 1783 in defiance of the Russo-Turkish Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji in 1774)
     
    Sounds almost like he thinks an injustice was done to the Ottomans and their slave-raiding Crimean Tatar vassals.
    Also annoying how he frames Russian claims on Ukraine as "ethnonationalism" and goes off on weird tangents about Britain having come into existence as a "civic nation of many peoples, origins and ethnicities". I suppose that shows how internalized the multiculti dogma has already become even among Tories.
    (lots of other issues as well of course, claiming that NATO is "purely defensive" is a joke after Kosovo, Afghanistan and Libya).

    Replies: @Mikhail

  14. • Replies: @sudden death
    @sudden death

    This performance artist is a current member of a ruling party in RF parliament, very recently did a modest public proposal of preventive RF nuclear strike directed to Nevada military poligon in US as a demonstration of Putin's serious intentions.

    Sign text - we wil tear USA with Putin's rocket!

    https://lenta.ru/news/2022/01/16/fedorov/

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  15. @sudden death
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FI1TcdNWQAYvfkk.jpg:large

    Replies: @sudden death

    This performance artist is a current member of a ruling party in RF parliament, very recently did a modest public proposal of preventive RF nuclear strike directed to Nevada military poligon in US as a demonstration of Putin’s serious intentions.

    Sign text – we wil tear USA with Putin’s rocket!

    https://lenta.ru/news/2022/01/16/fedorov/

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    This is why I told German_reader to head to the nearest nuclear bunker. Strangelove moments.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/roger-wicker-ukraine-russia-nuclear-b1971691.html

  16. @sudden death
    @sudden death

    This performance artist is a current member of a ruling party in RF parliament, very recently did a modest public proposal of preventive RF nuclear strike directed to Nevada military poligon in US as a demonstration of Putin's serious intentions.

    Sign text - we wil tear USA with Putin's rocket!

    https://lenta.ru/news/2022/01/16/fedorov/

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    This is why I told German_reader to head to the nearest nuclear bunker. Strangelove moments.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/roger-wicker-ukraine-russia-nuclear-b1971691.html

  17. A few weeks ago this piece on Jeffrey Sachs was published on the Intercept . It’s basically a smear piece about him taking UAE money. In particular, it’s about the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, which Sachs has done work for, taking UAE donations.

    Among what Sachs most well known for being an economic advisor for post-communist countries advocating for what is often called “shock therapy”. This success of such policies varied by country. He has often served as a scapegoat for economic failures in Russia but I don’t know the details of his involvement.

    Anyway, Sachs is very much “top dog” economist. You’ll find him high up on lists on influential living economists.

    In the last decade or so he’s been an outspoken critic of American foreign policy. This includes calling out USA for instigating conflict in Libya and Syria and also for having aggressive posturing towards Russia and China.

    It’s been pretty funny when he’s been invited to news shows to talk about foreign policy. Usually such guests just follow standard foreign policy lines so when someone goes against that people just get shocked. I have two clips. The first is about Syria where he brings up that USA was very much involved in starting the war in the first place. In the second clip he was told he was invited to talk about cooperation with China on climate change but instead he’s asked to talk about Chinese human rights abuse.

    Back to the Intercept piece. It’s just nothing. It tries to frame publicly listed donations as some kind of secret dirty deal. The think tank world is full of this stuff and this isn’t anything out of the ordinary. But the article isn’t only about that. It’s also largely trying to frame Sachs as someone who defends authorities countries. So you get to read sentences like “But human rights activists complain that Sachs mainly speaks about U.S. abuses, while minimizing those elsewhere in the world.” The typical stuff.

    I think this is a good example on how narrative is controlled in Western media and how “dissidents” are delegitimized and blacklisted from partaking in discussion. Sachs hasn’t been popular in foreign policy circles for some time. But you need “proof” as for why no one should listen to his opinion. That’s what this is. So every time Sachs says something you don’t like you can post this on twitter and say that he’s a bad guy. That’s more or less how it works.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Shortsword

    So what kind of a guy, in your opinion. is he really?

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Shortsword

    The If you're happy and you know it clap your hands insanity begins at 2:30 and if you can watch more than 20 seconds of it you have a far stronger stomach than I. I watched it because when I read the intercept article I thought surely they are exaggerating this cannot possibly be right.

    Yikes. Aye aye aye aye aye aye aye.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STg3tD1z_ic

  18. @Shortsword
    A few weeks ago this piece on Jeffrey Sachs was published on the Intercept . It's basically a smear piece about him taking UAE money. In particular, it's about the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, which Sachs has done work for, taking UAE donations.

    Among what Sachs most well known for being an economic advisor for post-communist countries advocating for what is often called "shock therapy". This success of such policies varied by country. He has often served as a scapegoat for economic failures in Russia but I don't know the details of his involvement.

    Anyway, Sachs is very much "top dog" economist. You'll find him high up on lists on influential living economists.

    In the last decade or so he's been an outspoken critic of American foreign policy. This includes calling out USA for instigating conflict in Libya and Syria and also for having aggressive posturing towards Russia and China.

    It's been pretty funny when he's been invited to news shows to talk about foreign policy. Usually such guests just follow standard foreign policy lines so when someone goes against that people just get shocked. I have two clips. The first is about Syria where he brings up that USA was very much involved in starting the war in the first place. In the second clip he was told he was invited to talk about cooperation with China on climate change but instead he's asked to talk about Chinese human rights abuse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iZQV0tcgqg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmd6WFoNS2w

    Back to the Intercept piece. It's just nothing. It tries to frame publicly listed donations as some kind of secret dirty deal. The think tank world is full of this stuff and this isn't anything out of the ordinary. But the article isn't only about that. It's also largely trying to frame Sachs as someone who defends authorities countries. So you get to read sentences like "But human rights activists complain that Sachs mainly speaks about U.S. abuses, while minimizing those elsewhere in the world." The typical stuff.

    I think this is a good example on how narrative is controlled in Western media and how "dissidents" are delegitimized and blacklisted from partaking in discussion. Sachs hasn't been popular in foreign policy circles for some time. But you need "proof" as for why no one should listen to his opinion. That's what this is. So every time Sachs says something you don't like you can post this on twitter and say that he's a bad guy. That's more or less how it works.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Emil Nikola Richard

    So what kind of a guy, in your opinion. is he really?

  19. Public Western gun transfers to Ukraine seem to have positive sobering influence, at least in rhetorics:

    MOSCOW — Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday he did not believe there was a risk of a large-scale war starting to unfold in Europe or elsewhere, and Moscow had no plans to attack, strike or invade Ukraine.

    Ryabkov, speaking in English, said the threat of Ukraine becoming ever more integrated in NATO was something that went right to the heart of Russia’s national security interests.

    https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/no-risk-of-large-scale-war-unfolding-in-europe-russias-ryabkov

    • Replies: @songbird
    @sudden death

    Everyone likes to do weapon dumps - I think they are the #2 favored technique, after embargoes, and asset seizures ($$$). But we have no controls to act as a test of their effectiveness.

    Personally, I suspect that they happen too easily because they are financially incentivized.

    In Afghanistan, with Saudi matching funds, it was like "Buy one, get one free!" Even though the Soviets already showed signs of pulling out, they did another super-dump, to give them that extra push. As though, anyone would really want to stay in Afghanistan forever.

    Sure, it probably damaged their capacities a little, but that damage has costs too. It makes working together more difficult. When they did the Mir-shuttle missions, the apartments of the astronauts in Baikonur were vandalized, even though that was years later. Hard feelings last a long time. Not that the mission in itself was important, or wasn't pulled off successfully, but surely the vandals were symptomatic of greater problems.

    , @RadicalCenter
    @sudden death

    How many more days will such weapons allegedly enable the anti-Russians in the ukraine to hold out? At the cost of how many more dead Ukrainian soldiers? (The ones who don't have the sense to quit and seek citizenship in Russia or elsewhere, that is.)

    Anyone ginning up unnecessary tension between these kindred peoples and then sending weapons is complicit in the unnecessary killing, terror, grief, poverty, and displacement that will occur if they "succeed."

    God bless the peace-loving people everywhere.

    Replies: @AP

  20. From prior OT

    The Vulcans are very logical and intelligent. They have had space travel for how many thousands of years? enough so that they are slightly dimorphic with the Romulans. They live in a universe where different alien species can interbreed, and yet, Spock aside (who seems to be some sort of diplomatic experiment for understanding humans – they need a half human to understand them, as a whole is too much), they seem to have admixed with aliens not any more than the Romulans (Tasha, who was a blonde).

    You are correct that the ST universe is very inconsistent about many things. The “right” answer at any moment is the one that is whoever supports the current episode.

    Vulcans & Romulans have a copper based blood oxygen carrier, while humans have iron based haemoglobin. Given this level of physiological difference, it is hard to see how Terran / Vulcan genetic hybrids could survive. The thin cover provided by a few episodes seems to imply that viable reproductive pairings are exceedingly rate & need significant technological help along the way. Of course when “plot” needs viability, that is one of the rare exceptions.

    The timing of interplanetary travel resembles current day ocean crossing by ship. We have not seen the equivalent of a luxury cruise ship, though such a thing may exist. This implies that a relatively small % of any planet’s population actually engages in space travel. And, presumably most of that with close destinations such a same species colonies. Why travel when, for most purposes, a holo-deck/suite is much more accessible and convenient?

    The only way pleasure planets, such as Risa, could exist is if they are difficult to reach. This would sharply limit demand. If transit was easy, such places would rapidly be swamped by excessive tourism.
    ____

    To sum up:

    The opportunities for inter-species mixing exists on an individual basis. However, probably not in the numbers to change planetwide demographics & genetics.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123

    Another funny thing: the Federation only accepts planets with global governments, which to me suggests that they only accept totalitarian worlds, as members.


    We have not seen the equivalent of a luxury cruise ship, though such a thing may exist. This implies that a relatively small % of any planet’s population actually engages in space travel.
     
    Someone once did the volume calculations of the Enterprise D, and it was so big, that, in theory, crew members could wonder the halls while almost never running into each other.
  21. @Shortsword
    A few weeks ago this piece on Jeffrey Sachs was published on the Intercept . It's basically a smear piece about him taking UAE money. In particular, it's about the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, which Sachs has done work for, taking UAE donations.

    Among what Sachs most well known for being an economic advisor for post-communist countries advocating for what is often called "shock therapy". This success of such policies varied by country. He has often served as a scapegoat for economic failures in Russia but I don't know the details of his involvement.

    Anyway, Sachs is very much "top dog" economist. You'll find him high up on lists on influential living economists.

    In the last decade or so he's been an outspoken critic of American foreign policy. This includes calling out USA for instigating conflict in Libya and Syria and also for having aggressive posturing towards Russia and China.

    It's been pretty funny when he's been invited to news shows to talk about foreign policy. Usually such guests just follow standard foreign policy lines so when someone goes against that people just get shocked. I have two clips. The first is about Syria where he brings up that USA was very much involved in starting the war in the first place. In the second clip he was told he was invited to talk about cooperation with China on climate change but instead he's asked to talk about Chinese human rights abuse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iZQV0tcgqg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmd6WFoNS2w

    Back to the Intercept piece. It's just nothing. It tries to frame publicly listed donations as some kind of secret dirty deal. The think tank world is full of this stuff and this isn't anything out of the ordinary. But the article isn't only about that. It's also largely trying to frame Sachs as someone who defends authorities countries. So you get to read sentences like "But human rights activists complain that Sachs mainly speaks about U.S. abuses, while minimizing those elsewhere in the world." The typical stuff.

    I think this is a good example on how narrative is controlled in Western media and how "dissidents" are delegitimized and blacklisted from partaking in discussion. Sachs hasn't been popular in foreign policy circles for some time. But you need "proof" as for why no one should listen to his opinion. That's what this is. So every time Sachs says something you don't like you can post this on twitter and say that he's a bad guy. That's more or less how it works.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Emil Nikola Richard

    The If you’re happy and you know it clap your hands insanity begins at 2:30 and if you can watch more than 20 seconds of it you have a far stronger stomach than I. I watched it because when I read the intercept article I thought surely they are exaggerating this cannot possibly be right.

    Yikes. Aye aye aye aye aye aye aye.

  22. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I always wonder why Israel has such bad marketing with the leftists in Western Europe, when a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.
     
    Israel is seen as "white" because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are "brown" because they are oppressed. It doesn't matter if it's a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    Another explanation is that Israel's key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenazim. I doubt your average person around the world knows Israel's population is majority Mizrahi/Arab. They are mostly only exposed to images of Netanyahu and the like. Whereas the typical Palestinian photo is of working-class protestors; who tend to be more brown than white. If the media were to put a spotlight on the Palestinian upper class; then perhaps they would be seen as white not brown.


    Why is that? Is class in the Arab society of Levantine region, associated with lower mixing with Bedouin or something like that?
     
    There is virtually no study conducted on the correlation of skin color/phenotypic appearance and class in the Arab world. I don't imagine it would be of interest to many scholars; if it were it's probably not high on the priority list. I can only speak of my own experience in Egypt; where most people in my circle tend to look like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvRVSuDMc8&ab_channel=ON

    Whereas in the lower classes they look more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k0_9Y1XaC8&ab_channel=RT

    There's some overlap; but mostly they may as well be part of a different race. It's very peculiar and i'm not sure how to explain it. Ostensibly, both the upper and lower class are part of the same nationality and religion; so they should have similar appearances. But perhaps the genetic make-up is different. 23andMe put me down as 1-2% sub-Saharan (SSA) admixed; which is much lower than the Egyptian average of 10-20% SSA. I am somewhat skeptical of my 23andme results since it showed I had no peninsular Arab ancestry; which I know for a fact is not true. But I'm not surprised by the low SSA results; I don't have any visible negroid characteristics. Neither do most people in the upper and middle class. A fair number of people in the lower class do though. In the upper class; you'd also find some Northern European-looking dirty blondes with green or blue eyes - a legacy of the Circassian slave trade during the Islamic period. My friend has that phenotype; she thought she had Italian genes due to her families origins in Alexandria; though I pointed out it's more likely to be from the Caucasus region in Southern Russia. She then said "oh that's why people tell me I look Russian". Most dirty-blondes in Egypt are unaware of their slave background; it was too long ago.

    Anyway, all of the above is also applicable to the Levant; though they don't have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt. This is an middle-to-upper class choir in Damascus:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T661Or1NuPA&ab_channel=ZiadNajem

    They look almost uniformly "white"; whereas I'm sure the working class would have more "browns" so to speak. It's possible this is due to peninsular Arab admixture; though i'm very skeptical of that explanation. Most Syrians/Palestinians; even the brown-looking ones, look nothing like Saudi Arabians. The facial features are too different; their brown skin also tends to be of a noticeably different shade - lighter (more on this below).


    It doesn’t seem like this in the Arabian Peninsula.
     
    One plausible explanation is that class stratification is not as pronounced in Saudi Arabia, where complex civilization only took a hold very recently. The selective process would not have had time to make a dent. Social stratification is associated with complex civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant are some of the oldest civilizations; naturally social stratification is pronounced and inter-class marriage is discouraged. My cousin's family once cut him off for a few years for marrying a lower class woman; though they later reconciled.

    I know I studied with Saudi classmate who were very dark.
     
    The median Saudi Arabian is dark - very dark. Here's a video of Saudis performing a sword dancing routine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Their skin color is closer to Pakistanis than to Arabs in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria etc. Even supposedly Bedouin Palestinians are noticeably lighter:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssTcNpaRTQE&ab_channel=waeldeab

    They also have different facial features which is readily known to anyone familiar with Saudi Arabians. This is why I shake my head when people claim the Arab conquests replaced the pre-existing conquered populations in Egypt and the Levant; it's obvious to me just going off phenotypes that isn't true. My observations have been confirmed by several genetic studies showing genetic differentiation between Saudis and Arabized Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, Maghrebis etc. The Arabs didn't have the numbers nor the intention to replace their subjects.

    Replies: @A123, @Dmitry, @songbird

    Israel is seen as “white” because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are “brown” because they are oppressed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    That does capture the reality of the situation.

    The fact that language is misused in the region also contributes to the opacity and intractability of the conflict.

    Use of the term anti-Semitic to mean anti-Jewish is technically wrong. The distinction is not about Semitic ethnicity. However, it is so embedded in the common usage of discourse that it cannot be extracted.

    Another huge lingustic problem is that followers of the non-Palestininan Muslim religion are identified as Palestinian. Due to intentional linguistic damage, there is a side composed of “non-Palestinian Palestinians”. This mislabeling as the exact opposite of their actual status makes rational discussions cumbersome. One has to repeatedly restate the conclusive evidence that Islam is not indigenous to Palestine.

    PEACE 😇

  23. @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    It looks like Erdogan is trying to extend Turkey's influence beyond the Stans, and he's offering Ukraine great moral support by directly warning Putin not to start any more military provocations there:


    You cannot handle these things by saying 'I will invade something, I will take it',” Turkish media quoted Erdogan as saying. “I don't see Russia's invasion of Ukraine as a realistic option because it is not an ordinary country. Ukraine is a powerful country,” said Erdogan, who backs Ukraine's NATO aspirations.
     
    https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/01/18/Turkey-s-Erdogan-warns-Russia-against-invading-Ukraine-

    Replies: @Beckow, @German_reader

    What exactly does “moral support” mean in a war? Holding coat for Zelensky is he runs away?

    Erdogan is a dirty player, his interest is purely in creating discord between Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Azeris, etc…he hopes to benefit from any created chaos. Otherwise, Turkey is quite poor and can’t compete head to head. They cannot take on Russia.

    Too many would benefit from a Russian-Ukie bloodbath – the blood would be on the Kiev side. So they stir it on. But what is at stake is whether Ukraine will be a large military base on the Russian border run by Washington. That’s the plan and Russia s opposed. Ask yourself only two questions:

    – How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
    – How important is it for Russia to prevent it?

    Whatever happens, I don’t think the plan to have the Nato bases in Ukraine will happen. Something else will.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow


    – How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
     
    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia. Ukraine adds nothing to U.S. national security.

    Unfortunately, we are still stuck with "Russia, Russia, Russia" mythology and a mentally infirm non-President. Violent stupidity may triumph over common sense.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    You characteristically omit the third question:

    Should Ukrainians just lay down their guns before a shooting match even starts, to a neighbor that has consistently shown no respect for Ukraine's own nation/state aspirations? Let's wait and see how this whole situation progresses before blurting out our own preferences for this large and "important" country. I'm betting that Russia is about to make one of its biggest blunders in this new century, but let's wait and see.

    Replies: @Aedib

  24. German_reader says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    It looks like Erdogan is trying to extend Turkey's influence beyond the Stans, and he's offering Ukraine great moral support by directly warning Putin not to start any more military provocations there:


    You cannot handle these things by saying 'I will invade something, I will take it',” Turkish media quoted Erdogan as saying. “I don't see Russia's invasion of Ukraine as a realistic option because it is not an ordinary country. Ukraine is a powerful country,” said Erdogan, who backs Ukraine's NATO aspirations.
     
    https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/01/18/Turkey-s-Erdogan-warns-Russia-against-invading-Ukraine-

    Replies: @Beckow, @German_reader

    Erdogan is pretty much an Islamic fundamentalist with an extensive record of supporting jihadi head-choppers and threatening Greece/insulting various EU states (and trying to utilize the Turkish diaspora for his goals). Not sure if such “friends” will do Ukraine any good, and if he supports NATO membership for Ukraine there’s definitely some very dubious agenda behind it. If anything, Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

    • Agree: songbird, A123
    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader

    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    , @Svidomyatheart
    @German_reader

    Turks just want to see more dead slavs, thats the only thing they care about.

    NeoOttomanism is the endgame

    We just need their drones though....

    Replies: @LatW

    , @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader

    Turkey is important as a southern flank against a revitalized Russian empire, therefore its importance cannot be underemphasized. Its support for Ukraine may be based more on its own mercantile interests than anything else, as it is fast becoming a key supplier of arms for Ukraine, including of course joint economic ventures in these endeavors. With few powerful friends in the neighborhood, this sort of direct vocal support, even if regarded as just political bluster or bravado is still, I'm sure, quite welcome to hear in Kyiv. It would be interesting to hear similar support from Poland and the Baltic countries too.

  25. @A123
    @songbird

    From prior OT

    The Vulcans are very logical and intelligent. They have had space travel for how many thousands of years? enough so that they are slightly dimorphic with the Romulans. They live in a universe where different alien species can interbreed, and yet, Spock aside (who seems to be some sort of diplomatic experiment for understanding humans – they need a half human to understand them, as a whole is too much), they seem to have admixed with aliens not any more than the Romulans (Tasha, who was a blonde).
     
    You are correct that the ST universe is very inconsistent about many things. The "right" answer at any moment is the one that is whoever supports the current episode.

    Vulcans & Romulans have a copper based blood oxygen carrier, while humans have iron based haemoglobin. Given this level of physiological difference, it is hard to see how Terran / Vulcan genetic hybrids could survive. The thin cover provided by a few episodes seems to imply that viable reproductive pairings are exceedingly rate & need significant technological help along the way. Of course when "plot" needs viability, that is one of the rare exceptions.

    The timing of interplanetary travel resembles current day ocean crossing by ship. We have not seen the equivalent of a luxury cruise ship, though such a thing may exist. This implies that a relatively small % of any planet's population actually engages in space travel. And, presumably most of that with close destinations such a same species colonies. Why travel when, for most purposes, a holo-deck/suite is much more accessible and convenient?

    The only way pleasure planets, such as Risa, could exist is if they are difficult to reach. This would sharply limit demand. If transit was easy, such places would rapidly be swamped by excessive tourism.
    ____

    To sum up:

    The opportunities for inter-species mixing exists on an individual basis. However, probably not in the numbers to change planetwide demographics & genetics.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    Another funny thing: the Federation only accepts planets with global governments, which to me suggests that they only accept totalitarian worlds, as members.

    We have not seen the equivalent of a luxury cruise ship, though such a thing may exist. This implies that a relatively small % of any planet’s population actually engages in space travel.

    Someone once did the volume calculations of the Enterprise D, and it was so big, that, in theory, crew members could wonder the halls while almost never running into each other.

  26. Interesting to see Tesla possibly opening up a nickel mine in New Caledonia, which is estimated to have about a quarter of the world’s nickel reserves. I understand that there are a lot of hurdles, political instability, some racial tensions, and big promises of environmental mitigation.

    If Tesla ever did vertically-integrated resource extraction in Africa, (maybe they are trying to learn the correct techniques on an island in the Pacific – to dip their toe in the water, as a learning experience?) Musk will have come full circle.

    Though, Tesla already owns a lithium deposit in Nevada, and aluminum seems to be sourced from many countries outside of Africa, so I am not sure what they would be after. Cobalt, maybe? But they are supposedly transitioning away from using it.

  27. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    What exactly does "moral support" mean in a war? Holding coat for Zelensky is he runs away?

    Erdogan is a dirty player, his interest is purely in creating discord between Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Azeris, etc...he hopes to benefit from any created chaos. Otherwise, Turkey is quite poor and can't compete head to head. They cannot take on Russia.

    Too many would benefit from a Russian-Ukie bloodbath - the blood would be on the Kiev side. So they stir it on. But what is at stake is whether Ukraine will be a large military base on the Russian border run by Washington. That's the plan and Russia s opposed. Ask yourself only two questions:

    - How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
    - How important is it for Russia to prevent it?

    Whatever happens, I don't think the plan to have the Nato bases in Ukraine will happen. Something else will.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

    – How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?

    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia. Ukraine adds nothing to U.S. national security.

    Unfortunately, we are still stuck with “Russia, Russia, Russia” mythology and a mentally infirm non-President. Violent stupidity may triumph over common sense.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123


    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia.
     
    The only threats to the security of the United States reside in the United States, Israel, Britain, Switzerland, Belgium, and France. What in the hell drugs are you on?

    Replies: @A123

    , @Beckow
    @A123

    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat. Iran not at all.

    "Russia, Russia,..." screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology. Intelligent people with a lack of knowledge often behave that way. Experience eventually corrects the delusion.

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia's space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can't back down and they can't sustain the exposed position.

    A classical strategic error not dissimilar to Napoleon brazenly marching into a trap, as did Germans, Swedes, Poles. This will get ugly.

    Replies: @A123, @Mikel

  28. @sudden death
    Public Western gun transfers to Ukraine seem to have positive sobering influence, at least in rhetorics:

    MOSCOW — Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Wednesday he did not believe there was a risk of a large-scale war starting to unfold in Europe or elsewhere, and Moscow had no plans to attack, strike or invade Ukraine.

    Ryabkov, speaking in English, said the threat of Ukraine becoming ever more integrated in NATO was something that went right to the heart of Russia’s national security interests.
     

    https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/no-risk-of-large-scale-war-unfolding-in-europe-russias-ryabkov

    Replies: @songbird, @RadicalCenter

    Everyone likes to do weapon dumps – I think they are the #2 favored technique, after embargoes, and asset seizures (\$\$\$). But we have no controls to act as a test of their effectiveness.

    Personally, I suspect that they happen too easily because they are financially incentivized.

    In Afghanistan, with Saudi matching funds, it was like “Buy one, get one free!” Even though the Soviets already showed signs of pulling out, they did another super-dump, to give them that extra push. As though, anyone would really want to stay in Afghanistan forever.

    Sure, it probably damaged their capacities a little, but that damage has costs too. It makes working together more difficult. When they did the Mir-shuttle missions, the apartments of the astronauts in Baikonur were vandalized, even though that was years later. Hard feelings last a long time. Not that the mission in itself was important, or wasn’t pulled off successfully, but surely the vandals were symptomatic of greater problems.

  29. Some very good points, with a glaring US foreign policy establishment inaccuracy about Russia threatening the West:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russian-federation/2021-10-19/myth-russian-decline

  30. Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?

    I look forward to the day when vans of goons travel around knocking on the doors of people with “hope, not hate” signs and making sure they are paid up to fund natalist/nationalist propaganda, and seizing their assets and deporting them to Africa, if they are not.

    Actually, I am just kidding (though I support defunding). ITV seems pretty woke.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @songbird

    Morgoth was saying that the BBC now has some furry dance show in the same timeslot as Kenneth Clark's Civilisation premiered, in 1969.

    , @Mikel
    @songbird


    Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?
     
    Apparently. But they will surely substitute it with some other form of taxation so that the British public continues to fund the BBC's mission to promote the woke gospel even in such remote places from Britain as the deserts of Utah and Nevada (in cooperation with the NPR, I believe).

    This was all happening under the administrations of Trump and BoJo, btw, which shows how hopeless Western conservatives are in general.

    Replies: @songbird

  31. @songbird
    Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?

    I look forward to the day when vans of goons travel around knocking on the doors of people with "hope, not hate" signs and making sure they are paid up to fund natalist/nationalist propaganda, and seizing their assets and deporting them to Africa, if they are not.

    Actually, I am just kidding (though I support defunding). ITV seems pretty woke.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mikel

    Morgoth was saying that the BBC now has some furry dance show in the same timeslot as Kenneth Clark’s Civilisation premiered, in 1969.

  32. @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Erdogan is pretty much an Islamic fundamentalist with an extensive record of supporting jihadi head-choppers and threatening Greece/insulting various EU states (and trying to utilize the Turkish diaspora for his goals). Not sure if such "friends" will do Ukraine any good, and if he supports NATO membership for Ukraine there's definitely some very dubious agenda behind it. If anything, Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

    Replies: @AP, @Svidomyatheart, @Mr. Hack

    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.

    • LOL: Mikhail
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP

    I'm not here to defend Germany's stance on arms shipments to Ukraine, about which I have considerable doubts (I can't fault your logic). But I also have to say I don't find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn't happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran). Germany likes to throw around money, but in foreign policy it's a non-entity. Erdogan's Turkey is more like an actively malicious actor imo.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mikhail
    @AP


    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.
     
    No one has outdone Poroshenko.
  33. German_reader says:
    @AP
    @German_reader

    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    I’m not here to defend Germany’s stance on arms shipments to Ukraine, about which I have considerable doubts (I can’t fault your logic). But I also have to say I don’t find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn’t happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran). Germany likes to throw around money, but in foreign policy it’s a non-entity. Erdogan’s Turkey is more like an actively malicious actor imo.

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader


    But I also have to say I don’t find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn’t happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran).
     
    Agree. Biden is not so great either. Ukraine can count on the UK, the Baltics, Poland and Turkey. The latter for different reasons than the others.

    Replies: @LatW

  34. @songbird
    Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?

    I look forward to the day when vans of goons travel around knocking on the doors of people with "hope, not hate" signs and making sure they are paid up to fund natalist/nationalist propaganda, and seizing their assets and deporting them to Africa, if they are not.

    Actually, I am just kidding (though I support defunding). ITV seems pretty woke.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mikel

    Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?

    Apparently. But they will surely substitute it with some other form of taxation so that the British public continues to fund the BBC’s mission to promote the woke gospel even in such remote places from Britain as the deserts of Utah and Nevada (in cooperation with the NPR, I believe).

    This was all happening under the administrations of Trump and BoJo, btw, which shows how hopeless Western conservatives are in general.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mikel


    will surely substitute it with some other form of taxation so that the British public continues to fund the BBC’s mission to promote the woke gospel even in such remote places
     
    Just so long as the news site doesn't cancel their Pidgin section.

    Am still waiting for the perfect woke story to be translated into Pidgin. Though, Sailer seems to think that the lack of vocabulary and low standard of living makes it impossible to articulate truly woke ideas.
  35. @A123
    @Beckow


    – How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
     
    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia. Ukraine adds nothing to U.S. national security.

    Unfortunately, we are still stuck with "Russia, Russia, Russia" mythology and a mentally infirm non-President. Violent stupidity may triumph over common sense.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow

    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia.

    The only threats to the security of the United States reside in the United States, Israel, Britain, Switzerland, Belgium, and France. What in the hell drugs are you on?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    What in the hell drugs are you on?
     
    Apparently drugs that are improve perceptiveness, accuracy, and honesty.

    The only threats to the security of the United States reside in the United States, Britain, Switzerland, Belgium, and France.
     
    Did you miss the Iranian Hamas terrorist attack in Texas a few days ago? Iran is the #1 threat to the survival of civilization. There are other active Muslim threats in America like George IslamoSoros and his Jihadist NGO's.

    Certainly there are threats from Europe. WEF Davos and Germany are the top two. However they are nowhere near as pressing as Iranian Islam or the CCP release of WUHAN-19.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  36. https://min.news/en/tech/93b13ff6f4fb6938faa0059a18204ae5.html?__cf_chl_f_tk=k9Bl6MfeuGXuLUMcDrXE043pL.vEhZUt7fp4nSbL5wc-1642616245-0-gaNycGzNCH0

    The Bene Gesserit have found the young woman to breed with Karlin and produce the Kwisatz Haderach!

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Maybe, I have been criticizing all these girlz code programs unfairly, if the idea behind them is to get the girls to compete for slots in a eugenics program, where everyone in the 95th percentile will mother sixteen children, with similar performing males.

  37. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123


    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia.
     
    The only threats to the security of the United States reside in the United States, Israel, Britain, Switzerland, Belgium, and France. What in the hell drugs are you on?

    Replies: @A123

    What in the hell drugs are you on?

    Apparently drugs that are improve perceptiveness, accuracy, and honesty.

    The only threats to the security of the United States reside in the United States, Britain, Switzerland, Belgium, and France.

    Did you miss the Iranian Hamas terrorist attack in Texas a few days ago? Iran is the #1 threat to the survival of civilization. There are other active Muslim threats in America like George IslamoSoros and his Jihadist NGO’s.

    Certainly there are threats from Europe. WEF Davos and Germany are the top two. However they are nowhere near as pressing as Iranian Islam or the CCP release of WUHAN-19.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @A123


    Iran is the #1 threat to the survival of civilization.
     
    Absurd, preposterous, ludicrous, farcical, risible rubbish.
  38. @Mikel
    @songbird


    Is the BBC license fee finally being cancelled?
     
    Apparently. But they will surely substitute it with some other form of taxation so that the British public continues to fund the BBC's mission to promote the woke gospel even in such remote places from Britain as the deserts of Utah and Nevada (in cooperation with the NPR, I believe).

    This was all happening under the administrations of Trump and BoJo, btw, which shows how hopeless Western conservatives are in general.

    Replies: @songbird

    will surely substitute it with some other form of taxation so that the British public continues to fund the BBC’s mission to promote the woke gospel even in such remote places

    Just so long as the news site doesn’t cancel their Pidgin section.

    Am still waiting for the perfect woke story to be translated into Pidgin. Though, Sailer seems to think that the lack of vocabulary and low standard of living makes it impossible to articulate truly woke ideas.

  39. 1. Make it EU-wide policy.
    2. Liquidate NATO.
    3. Replace it with an EU army.
    4. Seek balanced ties with China vis-a-vis US.
    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @A123
    @Thulean Friend

    It is very telling that you omitted the most important part of the announcement: (1)


    Due to relations between Poland and the United States deteriorating during President Joe Biden’s leadership, further criticism of China just to please the Americans is no longer in Poland’s interest.
     
    The problem is not between the U.S. and Poland. It is a temporary issue between Biden and Poland. Thus, the reaction is much less than it first appears. Not-The-President Biden's failing regime has created worse relations with almost everyone.

    2. Liquidate NATO.
     
    NATO cooperation is growing, even among smaller countries such as the Czech Republic. (2)

    3. Replace it with an EU army.
     
    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?

    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports
     
    What about toxic European degeneracy from the WEF in Davos?

    Culture destroyers such as The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa formed in Europe and were exported to America.
    _____

    Europe's problem is 99%+ Europe. Falsely blaming the U.S. for the malaise of Europe serves the WEF/SJW's who want to block progress towards viable solutions. I am sure that The IslamoSoros thanks you for your support of his ambitions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/poland/polands-president-will-attend-beijing-olympics-opening-ceremony-despite-us-led-diplomatic-boycott/

    (2) https://rmx.news/czech-republic/czech-soldiers-to-participate-in-largest-nato-air-defense-exercise-in-june/

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Mikhail
    @Thulean Friend

    If Duda could only include Russia in that comment.

    Replies: @Aedib

  40. China added \$3 trillion to its GDP, equivalent to India’s entire GDP, last year.

    Their nominal per capita GDP is now \$12.5K, which is close to the World Bank’s threshold for “high-income economies”. China’s population will peak this year. Its crude birth rate has collapsed to just 7.5 per 1000 people. It was 13 per 1000 as late as 2016. Their TFR should now be close to 1.0.

    Richard Hanania thinks China can get their TFR up to 1.8 in 20 years. I am highly skeptical. China looks like it will follow Korea or Taiwan (0.8-1.0). OTOH, the native European population in most Western countries is already declining and the white population in the USA is also falling.

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.
     
    Didn't you recently endorse the 1 billion Americans idea, which would obviously make the US even more multicultural? Seems like a bit of a contradiction imo.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Thulean Friend

    3 Trillion and that is equivalent to India's GDP? Nominal GDP fluctuates so much it's meaningless. Just look at PPP, that's more meaningful and less prone to exchange rate swings. China now has steady but prematurely slowing growth.

    Also read what's at the root of Hanania's argument - all the other East Asian states aren't as authoritarian and aren't willing to silence anti-natal "wrongthink".

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.
     
    Imagine Austria-Hungary, if Hungarians had an IQ of 85 and blue skin.

    (I'd like to add other elements, but want to be pithy.)
    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Thulean Friend

    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap and one of her favorite prophecy is half of Chinese (or the world's) people dying. All of those from our friend (the Chinese version of) The Epoch Times.

    Checked your claim and indeed the Chinese population is indeed going to half within this century, but everyone ahead of the demographic transition curve will, too: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930677-2
    (the notorious Bill Gates Foundation paid for this)

    Her mental image is still a rapid societal collapse that literally kills off hundreds of millions, either from COVID (seriously) or war, and that should have been fulfilled the year that'd just passed. The only way she would be 100% right will be a quick demographic bust or nuclear MAD.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @songbird

  41. @Thulean Friend
    China added $3 trillion to its GDP, equivalent to India's entire GDP, last year.

    Their nominal per capita GDP is now $12.5K, which is close to the World Bank's threshold for "high-income economies". China's population will peak this year. Its crude birth rate has collapsed to just 7.5 per 1000 people. It was 13 per 1000 as late as 2016. Their TFR should now be close to 1.0.

    Richard Hanania thinks China can get their TFR up to 1.8 in 20 years. I am highly skeptical. China looks like it will follow Korea or Taiwan (0.8-1.0). OTOH, the native European population in most Western countries is already declining and the white population in the USA is also falling.

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Yellowface Anon, @songbird, @Yellowface Anon

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Didn’t you recently endorse the 1 billion Americans idea, which would obviously make the US even more multicultural? Seems like a bit of a contradiction imo.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).

    Even immigrants from "troublesome" countries like Turkey, Iraq, Pakistan etc are highly Westernised. English being the lingua franca of business and science means that most immigrants already come knowing the language, shortening the process of integration further.

    Assuming China's populaton halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America. America seeks to remain the hegemon, so its hands are tied. A major reason why elites in 3rd world countries choose the US side is because their society is open to foreigners, an advantage that China cannot replicate. Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.

    Europe is in much worse shape since it doesn't have two giant oceans to act as natural filters, meaning overall immigrant quality tends to be much worse. OTOH, Europe doesn't aspire to be an empire and can afford to take a more isolationist policy. It also doesn't have any real stake in the US-China rivalry and the sooner Europeans accept this, the better. Europe's geopolitical position is actually the best of all five major blocs (US, CN, EU, India, Russia). It has no natural rivalries with any, not even Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian

  42. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.
     
    Didn't you recently endorse the 1 billion Americans idea, which would obviously make the US even more multicultural? Seems like a bit of a contradiction imo.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).

    Even immigrants from “troublesome” countries like Turkey, Iraq, Pakistan etc are highly Westernised. English being the lingua franca of business and science means that most immigrants already come knowing the language, shortening the process of integration further.

    Assuming China’s populaton halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America. America seeks to remain the hegemon, so its hands are tied. A major reason why elites in 3rd world countries choose the US side is because their society is open to foreigners, an advantage that China cannot replicate. Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.

    Europe is in much worse shape since it doesn’t have two giant oceans to act as natural filters, meaning overall immigrant quality tends to be much worse. OTOH, Europe doesn’t aspire to be an empire and can afford to take a more isolationist policy. It also doesn’t have any real stake in the US-China rivalry and the sooner Europeans accept this, the better. Europe’s geopolitical position is actually the best of all five major blocs (US, CN, EU, India, Russia). It has no natural rivalries with any, not even Russia.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).
     
    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.

    Assuming China’s population halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America
     
    Even at current numbers China isn't as powerful as the USA. 200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Yevardian
    @Thulean Friend

    I thought you were an "environmentalist". What you're proposing is nothing less than the wholesale destruction of America's remaining wilderness to pursue grubby imperial power-politics.

    The world's population outside Africa and India, both regions with negligible state capability, are stagnant or declining, so why does America need a billion people? Besides, losing hegemony hardly entails an automatic decline in living standards, often the reverse in fact.


    Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.
     
    Yes, because their own country is totally corrupt and dysfunctional, with extremely low average levels of trust. Eventually, in large enough numbers, they bring their own civilisational problems with them. Obviously, there are individual exceptions, but any insane plan of "1 billion Americans" makes that a footnote.

    I suppose a racially caste-divided billion-strong imperial USA sucking in the world's talented 5% of Africans and Pajeets, pledging allegience as a sterile elite setting itself from the proles via sexual perversions (couple with an upside down puritanism), and hatred of the past would certainly eviscerate what remains of America's middle-class... so you can consider that a win, I guess.
  43. @Emil Nikola Richard
    https://min.news/en/tech/93b13ff6f4fb6938faa0059a18204ae5.html?__cf_chl_f_tk=k9Bl6MfeuGXuLUMcDrXE043pL.vEhZUt7fp4nSbL5wc-1642616245-0-gaNycGzNCH0

    The Bene Gesserit have found the young woman to breed with Karlin and produce the Kwisatz Haderach!

    Replies: @songbird

    Maybe, I have been criticizing all these girlz code programs unfairly, if the idea behind them is to get the girls to compete for slots in a eugenics program, where everyone in the 95th percentile will mother sixteen children, with similar performing males.

  44. @Thulean Friend
    https://twitter.com/ChollimaOrg/status/1483670062666252291

    1. Make it EU-wide policy.
    2. Liquidate NATO.
    3. Replace it with an EU army.
    4. Seek balanced ties with China vis-a-vis US.
    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports.

    Replies: @A123, @Mikhail

    It is very telling that you omitted the most important part of the announcement: (1)

    Due to relations between Poland and the United States deteriorating during President Joe Biden’s leadership, further criticism of China just to please the Americans is no longer in Poland’s interest.

    The problem is not between the U.S. and Poland. It is a temporary issue between Biden and Poland. Thus, the reaction is much less than it first appears. Not-The-President Biden’s failing regime has created worse relations with almost everyone.

    2. Liquidate NATO.

    NATO cooperation is growing, even among smaller countries such as the Czech Republic. (2)

    3. Replace it with an EU army.

    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?

    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports

    What about toxic European degeneracy from the WEF in Davos?

    Culture destroyers such as The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa formed in Europe and were exported to America.
    _____

    Europe’s problem is 99%+ Europe. Falsely blaming the U.S. for the malaise of Europe serves the WEF/SJW’s who want to block progress towards viable solutions. I am sure that The IslamoSoros thanks you for your support of his ambitions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/poland/polands-president-will-attend-beijing-olympics-opening-ceremony-despite-us-led-diplomatic-boycott/

    (2) https://rmx.news/czech-republic/czech-soldiers-to-participate-in-largest-nato-air-defense-exercise-in-june/

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    3. Replace it with an EU army.

    How would such an institution function?
     
    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    Replies: @A123

  45. @A123
    @Beckow


    – How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
     
    For the U.S., the correct answer should be zero. Threats are countries like China and Iran, not Russia. Ukraine adds nothing to U.S. national security.

    Unfortunately, we are still stuck with "Russia, Russia, Russia" mythology and a mentally infirm non-President. Violent stupidity may triumph over common sense.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Beckow

    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat. Iran not at all.

    “Russia, Russia,…” screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology. Intelligent people with a lack of knowledge often behave that way. Experience eventually corrects the delusion.

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.

    A classical strategic error not dissimilar to Napoleon brazenly marching into a trap, as did Germans, Swedes, Poles. This will get ugly.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow


    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat.
     
    I concur. The CCP is an economic predator. This is far more dangerous than its military. MAGA Reindustrialization is the obvious solution to recover jobs and national security industries.

    Iran not at all.
     
    Iran's detonation (possibly accidental) of the Beirut Port is certainly a threat. There is no hope of stabilizing Syria or Lebanon as long as Iranian degeneracy is in the field.

    Khamenei also funds random violence globally, such as the recent Iranian Hamas attack in Texas. If terrorism is "not at all" a threat, is that an invitation that random attacks should be sponsored in Beijing? What goes around, comes around.


    “Russia, Russia,…” screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology.
     
    The DNC created the fiction to smear Trump and brainwashed their acolytes into incorporating it as dogma. I do not know that it meets the strict definition of paranoia, however it certainly is irrational. What part of SJW/DNC extremism is rational?

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation
     
    NeoConDemocrats and other Globalists created the problems. Despite their local leadership positions, these European WEF aligned extremists are enemies of America.

    Main Street Christian America and Christian Russia are logical allies. Broadly smearing all of the U.S. as an enemy is irrational. Failed U.S. leadership like GW Bush and Not-The-President Biden are fundamentally anti-American problems that plague Christians at home as well as those abroad.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Mikel
    @Beckow


    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.
     
    Russia's situation is worse. Not only is it the encircled country but it has put itself in a position where it has to act after all this tough talk and ultimatums. If it doesn't, it won't be taken seriously and the encirclement will just carry on. The West has already responded and said that it doesn't accept Russia's stated red lines. Now what?

    Not to mention that its only real ally in Europe is Belarus but only due to the weakness of its elderly ruler. He wasn't so collaborative before his rule was challenged in the streets by a large amount of people. Not the best kind of ally to have.

    It would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe, perhaps even joining the EU and NATO. But that would have meant letting the West dictate its internal policies and join its interventionist adventures abroad, something that Russia can't be blamed for not being too keen on.

    Whatever the case, that didn't happen so I think that Russia's stance of not accepting any further encroachment is objectively right and NATO's position of ignoring Russia's concerns is totally irresponsible.

    The whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War, possibly more dangerous than the previous one until some strategic balance is restored, for no ideological reasons at all. It's all hardly anything more than a big pissing contest. Russia's neighbors' Russophobia, Russia's ham-fisted approach to these neighbors and, above all, the West's interventionist hubris.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Dmitry, @Beckow

  46. Watched first hour of the 1976 BBC adaptation of I, Claudius. My review will sound like sniping, but that is just how I roll, as I hate nearly all TV, but especially British. I will review it on two levels:

    [MORE]

    anthropological: (fascinating)

    Wonder what Robert Graves (he was on set) thought of seeing topless Negresses twerking in thongs in the first ten minutes of the adaptation of his historical novel about the Roman Empire. Or the fact that Marcellus’s doctor was Indian. Or that the dialogue included proposals to have gladiatorial combats between Germans and “black Moroccans.”

    Fascinating how they ran a Nat Geo gambit. Apparently, trying to sex it up with mostly-naked Negresses shaking their T & A, and believing the public would tolerate it because they are so different and alien-looking that it is plausible that it is not really pornographic, but merely a bizarre cultural demonstration from the darkest heart of primitive Africa.

    Wonder if they only had the budget to pay for three (think that was the number, though hard to tell in small screen format) to get naked, or else it was their strategy against censorship to bookend it with two that were (sort of) clothed.

    Some leftist dialogue critiquing the meme-phrase “not what it used to be.” (about the Roman theater, which is kind of meta). Though, that is the only non-racial point I caught.

    artistic: (awful)

    I’ll allow that it is a hard story to adapt, but I thought the narrative structure was really awful. Claudius hardly appears at all, mostly he is recounting events before he was born, or an old man who is alone, acting like a quasi-ghost. The one scene where he was supposed to be a boy, at the oracle, but there is no boy, just the adult actor is so jarring that I find it impossible to develop any sympathy for the character.

    It was too theatrical, which I always interpret as a conceit.

    Sound design was pretty bad. Due to budget constraints (£442,000/episode, in 2020 pounds), they sought to add depth by adding background sounds, like crowd noises or birds chirping, but it just makes the thing more garbled.

    People say that old British television was “cozy”, which I don’t think works well, when trying to set a story in the glory days of Imperial Rome.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    The "coziness" is part of the charm of it all. You'll either hate or appreciate this "all in the family' feeling throughout the whole series, especially when the whole family gets together in the evenings after dinner, and exchanges pleasantries and gossip with Caesar who is at the center of it all, downing his last goblet of wine for the day just before retiring. The sarcasm on display during these close encounters is laid on quite thick at times. Allow it some more time to grow on you, perhaps watch the first 3-4 series before trying to form an initial opinion. And the individual acting? I think that this is where the whole series really shines.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Mikhail
    @songbird

    Keeping in mind the era it was made, I thought it was pretty good.

  47. @Beckow
    @A123

    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat. Iran not at all.

    "Russia, Russia,..." screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology. Intelligent people with a lack of knowledge often behave that way. Experience eventually corrects the delusion.

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia's space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can't back down and they can't sustain the exposed position.

    A classical strategic error not dissimilar to Napoleon brazenly marching into a trap, as did Germans, Swedes, Poles. This will get ugly.

    Replies: @A123, @Mikel

    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat.

    I concur. The CCP is an economic predator. This is far more dangerous than its military. MAGA Reindustrialization is the obvious solution to recover jobs and national security industries.

    Iran not at all.

    Iran’s detonation (possibly accidental) of the Beirut Port is certainly a threat. There is no hope of stabilizing Syria or Lebanon as long as Iranian degeneracy is in the field.

    Khamenei also funds random violence globally, such as the recent Iranian Hamas attack in Texas. If terrorism is “not at all” a threat, is that an invitation that random attacks should be sponsored in Beijing? What goes around, comes around.

    “Russia, Russia,…” screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology.

    The DNC created the fiction to smear Trump and brainwashed their acolytes into incorporating it as dogma. I do not know that it meets the strict definition of paranoia, however it certainly is irrational. What part of SJW/DNC extremism is rational?

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation

    NeoConDemocrats and other Globalists created the problems. Despite their local leadership positions, these European WEF aligned extremists are enemies of America.

    Main Street Christian America and Christian Russia are logical allies. Broadly smearing all of the U.S. as an enemy is irrational. Failed U.S. leadership like GW Bush and Not-The-President Biden are fundamentally anti-American problems that plague Christians at home as well as those abroad.

    PEACE 😇

  48. @Thulean Friend
    China added $3 trillion to its GDP, equivalent to India's entire GDP, last year.

    Their nominal per capita GDP is now $12.5K, which is close to the World Bank's threshold for "high-income economies". China's population will peak this year. Its crude birth rate has collapsed to just 7.5 per 1000 people. It was 13 per 1000 as late as 2016. Their TFR should now be close to 1.0.

    Richard Hanania thinks China can get their TFR up to 1.8 in 20 years. I am highly skeptical. China looks like it will follow Korea or Taiwan (0.8-1.0). OTOH, the native European population in most Western countries is already declining and the white population in the USA is also falling.

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Yellowface Anon, @songbird, @Yellowface Anon

    3 Trillion and that is equivalent to India’s GDP? Nominal GDP fluctuates so much it’s meaningless. Just look at PPP, that’s more meaningful and less prone to exchange rate swings. China now has steady but prematurely slowing growth.

    Also read what’s at the root of Hanania’s argument – all the other East Asian states aren’t as authoritarian and aren’t willing to silence anti-natal “wrongthink”.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Yellowface Anon


    Also read what’s at the root of Hanania’s argument – all the other East Asian states aren’t as authoritarian and aren’t willing to silence anti-natal “wrongthink”.
     
    https://mobile.twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/1482563545883623425


    China can soften the blow, perhaps, but not prevent it.

  49. @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    rice for delusions: Erdogan,
     
    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan's construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thl-XkLATBE

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey's economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey's economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Yahya, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    I can see in the video that Erdogan does not look very Turkic (at least compared to Nursultan). He should better discover his Anatolian roots rather than fantasizing about a Turanic empire.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Aedib

    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  50. @Thulean Friend
    China added $3 trillion to its GDP, equivalent to India's entire GDP, last year.

    Their nominal per capita GDP is now $12.5K, which is close to the World Bank's threshold for "high-income economies". China's population will peak this year. Its crude birth rate has collapsed to just 7.5 per 1000 people. It was 13 per 1000 as late as 2016. Their TFR should now be close to 1.0.

    Richard Hanania thinks China can get their TFR up to 1.8 in 20 years. I am highly skeptical. China looks like it will follow Korea or Taiwan (0.8-1.0). OTOH, the native European population in most Western countries is already declining and the white population in the USA is also falling.

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Yellowface Anon, @songbird, @Yellowface Anon

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Imagine Austria-Hungary, if Hungarians had an IQ of 85 and blue skin.

    (I’d like to add other elements, but want to be pithy.)

  51. @AP
    @German_reader

    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    Although this is true, by improving Ukraine’s defensive capability and chances of deterring a war, Erdogan is doing far more for peace in Europe than is Germany.

    No one has outdone Poroshenko.

  52. @A123
    @Thulean Friend

    It is very telling that you omitted the most important part of the announcement: (1)


    Due to relations between Poland and the United States deteriorating during President Joe Biden’s leadership, further criticism of China just to please the Americans is no longer in Poland’s interest.
     
    The problem is not between the U.S. and Poland. It is a temporary issue between Biden and Poland. Thus, the reaction is much less than it first appears. Not-The-President Biden's failing regime has created worse relations with almost everyone.

    2. Liquidate NATO.
     
    NATO cooperation is growing, even among smaller countries such as the Czech Republic. (2)

    3. Replace it with an EU army.
     
    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?

    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports
     
    What about toxic European degeneracy from the WEF in Davos?

    Culture destroyers such as The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa formed in Europe and were exported to America.
    _____

    Europe's problem is 99%+ Europe. Falsely blaming the U.S. for the malaise of Europe serves the WEF/SJW's who want to block progress towards viable solutions. I am sure that The IslamoSoros thanks you for your support of his ambitions.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/poland/polands-president-will-attend-beijing-olympics-opening-ceremony-despite-us-led-diplomatic-boycott/

    (2) https://rmx.news/czech-republic/czech-soldiers-to-participate-in-largest-nato-air-defense-exercise-in-june/

    Replies: @songbird

    3. Replace it with an EU army.

    How would such an institution function?

    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    • Troll: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird




    3. Replace it with an EU army.
     
    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?
     
    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I think you completely missed the point of my question.

    The issues are primarily about much more senior command & control. A Belgian General orders a Polish Colonel to advance:

    -- Does it hapoen? No.
    -- What does happen? The Polish Colonel pushes up the chain that a nearby Belgian Colonel's troops need to advance and be expended first.

    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality (or ethnicity).

    How can any military function when there are no orders? Every request would be a multinational negotiation based on a 100% absence of trust. The French & Germans have not been able to set-up a bilateral force. The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

  53. @Thulean Friend
    https://twitter.com/ChollimaOrg/status/1483670062666252291

    1. Make it EU-wide policy.
    2. Liquidate NATO.
    3. Replace it with an EU army.
    4. Seek balanced ties with China vis-a-vis US.
    5. Purge toxic American cultural imports.

    Replies: @A123, @Mikhail

    If Duda could only include Russia in that comment.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Mikhail

    Without criticizing Russia, the Poles will simply cease to exist. Hatred toward Russia is the core of the Pole ethos. It is sometimes called "envy".

  54. @songbird
    @A123


    3. Replace it with an EU army.

    How would such an institution function?
     
    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    Replies: @A123

    3. Replace it with an EU army.

    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?

    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    I think you completely missed the point of my question.

    The issues are primarily about much more senior command & control. A Belgian General orders a Polish Colonel to advance:

    — Does it hapoen? No.
    — What does happen? The Polish Colonel pushes up the chain that a nearby Belgian Colonel’s troops need to advance and be expended first.

    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality (or ethnicity).

    How can any military function when there are no orders? Every request would be a multinational negotiation based on a 100% absence of trust. The French & Germans have not been able to set-up a bilateral force. The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality
     
    You misapprehend me.

    My idea is to organize covert deportations by assigning ethnic non-Euro units to their native countries. Algerians to Algeria, Turks to Turkey and, so on. And since all those areas are secure, they could bring their spouses and children, to live on the bases with them.

    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke, and the regime would never support it. More likely they would send multicult units into Africa and MENA in order to pressgang the locals, and then import them into Europe, deploying them in the more isolated spots that still look like America in 1985. And possibly, during the process, subjecting them to the chemicals that turn frogs gay.

    The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.
     
    To a certain extent, pozzed Western Europe is on the same page.

    It all depends on where the fracture line lies. Whether Eastern Europe is already in the woke spiderweb, or whether it can pull free. If it can pull free, then what the gay EU needs is an organization to prevent Visegrád from making one, single long march to Portugal. But not effective enough to prevent them from repeatedly slicing chunks of it off, each time expelling and forcing the undesirables West, and making the part that remains weaker, and less palatable to the natives, who will either emigrate East or become a fifth column.

    Replies: @A123

  55. @Emil Nikola Richard
    There was an odd post on a blog called mideast soccer by some British geopolitics strategy guy based in Singapore which I thought was intriguing. On the subject of Turkish and Russian diplomacy on the Kazakstan domestic situation last week. It is short. The fellow makes a big deal of a Turkish official displaying a map of Turkish linguistic greatness.

    The map:

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cjE1eTp6yWU/T27cwVFmToI/AAAAAAAAHlc/b_PzzR-3MsQ/s1600/turkish1.jpg

    The blog post:

    https://mideastsoccer.blogspot.com/2022/01/kazakhstan-like-ukraine-spotlights.html

    I am mystified what this has to do with soccer and I wonder if the Turks really call it that. All the Euros I know call it football.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Not Raul

    Interesting map. It looks like they consider Kurdish to be a dialect of Turkish, which it isn’t.

    If Russia and Turkey go to war, the Kurds could tie down a lot of Turkish troops.

  56. @Thulean Friend
    China added $3 trillion to its GDP, equivalent to India's entire GDP, last year.

    Their nominal per capita GDP is now $12.5K, which is close to the World Bank's threshold for "high-income economies". China's population will peak this year. Its crude birth rate has collapsed to just 7.5 per 1000 people. It was 13 per 1000 as late as 2016. Their TFR should now be close to 1.0.

    Richard Hanania thinks China can get their TFR up to 1.8 in 20 years. I am highly skeptical. China looks like it will follow Korea or Taiwan (0.8-1.0). OTOH, the native European population in most Western countries is already declining and the white population in the USA is also falling.

    The history of multicultural empires is not particularly encouraging for the US.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Yellowface Anon, @songbird, @Yellowface Anon

    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap and one of her favorite prophecy is half of Chinese (or the world’s) people dying. All of those from our friend (the Chinese version of) The Epoch Times.

    Checked your claim and indeed the Chinese population is indeed going to half within this century, but everyone ahead of the demographic transition curve will, too: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930677-2
    (the notorious Bill Gates Foundation paid for this)

    Her mental image is still a rapid societal collapse that literally kills off hundreds of millions, either from COVID (seriously) or war, and that should have been fulfilled the year that’d just passed. The only way she would be 100% right will be a quick demographic bust or nuclear MAD.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    I found news sites quoting the authors' claim that if Chinese TFR stays around 1, the population will half in 29 years. Bill Gates can suck

    , @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon


    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap
     
    Chinese astrology is very logical and benign compared to current Western superstitions.

    You should encourage it in her, and take it up yourself, so that you can post it, turning us into your disciples, so that we may one day teach the woke to consider the color black unlucky, instead of a sign of good fortune. Replace their love of it, with a love of the number 8, which is what we will increase the TFR to. And a love of yellow, so that we will go back to the gold standard.
  57. @Yellowface Anon
    @Thulean Friend

    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap and one of her favorite prophecy is half of Chinese (or the world's) people dying. All of those from our friend (the Chinese version of) The Epoch Times.

    Checked your claim and indeed the Chinese population is indeed going to half within this century, but everyone ahead of the demographic transition curve will, too: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930677-2
    (the notorious Bill Gates Foundation paid for this)

    Her mental image is still a rapid societal collapse that literally kills off hundreds of millions, either from COVID (seriously) or war, and that should have been fulfilled the year that'd just passed. The only way she would be 100% right will be a quick demographic bust or nuclear MAD.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @songbird

    I found news sites quoting the authors’ claim that if Chinese TFR stays around 1, the population will half in 29 years. Bill Gates can suck

  58. @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Erdogan is pretty much an Islamic fundamentalist with an extensive record of supporting jihadi head-choppers and threatening Greece/insulting various EU states (and trying to utilize the Turkish diaspora for his goals). Not sure if such "friends" will do Ukraine any good, and if he supports NATO membership for Ukraine there's definitely some very dubious agenda behind it. If anything, Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

    Replies: @AP, @Svidomyatheart, @Mr. Hack

    Turks just want to see more dead slavs, thats the only thing they care about.

    NeoOttomanism is the endgame

    We just need their drones though….

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Svidomyatheart

    Turks..
    We just need their drones though….
     

    More than that.. there is potential political support as well as economic cooperation.
    You don't have to love each other, just cooperate when it fits you.
  59. @German_reader
    @AP

    I'm not here to defend Germany's stance on arms shipments to Ukraine, about which I have considerable doubts (I can't fault your logic). But I also have to say I don't find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn't happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran). Germany likes to throw around money, but in foreign policy it's a non-entity. Erdogan's Turkey is more like an actively malicious actor imo.

    Replies: @AP

    But I also have to say I don’t find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn’t happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran).

    Agree. Biden is not so great either. Ukraine can count on the UK, the Baltics, Poland and Turkey. The latter for different reasons than the others.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @AP


    Ukraine can count on the UK, the Baltics, Poland and Turkey.
     
    Agree. The last couple of days showed who is who, very interesting contours appeared. It reminds me of the north-south axis as opposed to east-west.

    Ukraine's true friends & allies:

    - UK & Canada
    - Poland & The Baltics
    - Turkey (whether they're a situational or natural ally is not yet clear)

    Potential friends: Sweden (the weapons supplied by the UK are Swedish made, Saab, Sweden in general has an insanely advanced weapons industry, it could potentially take the place of Germany vis a vis Ukraine), Norway, Denmark? Japan? Certain parts of the Russian opposition? Certain parts of the Belarusian nation? Georgia?

    Whether Germany is a neutral or a hostile country is a question.

    Current US administration... not too reliable as a friend or ally. The US should probably still put a little effort into trying to maintain their superpower status.
  60. @Aedib
    @Dmitry

    I can see in the video that Erdogan does not look very Turkic (at least compared to Nursultan). He should better discover his Anatolian roots rather than fantasizing about a Turanic empire.

    Replies: @AP

    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP


    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.
     
    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what's your basis? Came across this piece:

    https://www.serbianmonitor.com/en/myths-and-truths-about-genetic-makeup-of-serbs/

    Replies: @AP

  61. @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).

    Even immigrants from "troublesome" countries like Turkey, Iraq, Pakistan etc are highly Westernised. English being the lingua franca of business and science means that most immigrants already come knowing the language, shortening the process of integration further.

    Assuming China's populaton halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America. America seeks to remain the hegemon, so its hands are tied. A major reason why elites in 3rd world countries choose the US side is because their society is open to foreigners, an advantage that China cannot replicate. Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.

    Europe is in much worse shape since it doesn't have two giant oceans to act as natural filters, meaning overall immigrant quality tends to be much worse. OTOH, Europe doesn't aspire to be an empire and can afford to take a more isolationist policy. It also doesn't have any real stake in the US-China rivalry and the sooner Europeans accept this, the better. Europe's geopolitical position is actually the best of all five major blocs (US, CN, EU, India, Russia). It has no natural rivalries with any, not even Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian

    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).

    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.

    Assuming China’s population halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America

    Even at current numbers China isn’t as powerful as the USA. 200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.
     
    I would go one step further. A lot of Latinx immigrants are already assimilated to Euro-Western culture when they arrive. That's why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural 'costs'. A privilege unavailable to Europe vis-a-vis MENA.

    200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.
     
    There won't be 200 million white Americans by the end of this century, "aspirational self-identification" notwithstanding. It'll be lower than today, which is already just 190 million. And there will be closer to 700-750 million Chinese.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

  62. @A123
    @songbird




    3. Replace it with an EU army.
     
    How would such an institution function? Do you actually think that Poles and Hungarians would take orders from SJW Germans or Woke Belgians?

    The Euroskeptic push against authoritarian centralism is growing. What makes you think any proposal that would make that issue worse has the slightest chance?
     
    1.) lower minimum age of enlistment/ raise maximum
    2.) institute draft
    3.) Segregate by ethnic group.
    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I think you completely missed the point of my question.

    The issues are primarily about much more senior command & control. A Belgian General orders a Polish Colonel to advance:

    -- Does it hapoen? No.
    -- What does happen? The Polish Colonel pushes up the chain that a nearby Belgian Colonel's troops need to advance and be expended first.

    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality (or ethnicity).

    How can any military function when there are no orders? Every request would be a multinational negotiation based on a 100% absence of trust. The French & Germans have not been able to set-up a bilateral force. The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality

    You misapprehend me.

    My idea is to organize covert deportations by assigning ethnic non-Euro units to their native countries. Algerians to Algeria, Turks to Turkey and, so on. And since all those areas are secure, they could bring their spouses and children, to live on the bases with them.

    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke, and the regime would never support it. More likely they would send multicult units into Africa and MENA in order to pressgang the locals, and then import them into Europe, deploying them in the more isolated spots that still look like America in 1985. And possibly, during the process, subjecting them to the chemicals that turn frogs gay.

    The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.

    To a certain extent, pozzed Western Europe is on the same page.

    It all depends on where the fracture line lies. Whether Eastern Europe is already in the woke spiderweb, or whether it can pull free. If it can pull free, then what the gay EU needs is an organization to prevent Visegrád from making one, single long march to Portugal. But not effective enough to prevent them from repeatedly slicing chunks of it off, each time expelling and forcing the undesirables West, and making the part that remains weaker, and less palatable to the natives, who will either emigrate East or become a fifth column.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    You misapprehend me.
    ...
    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke
     
    Sadly, humor is not always easily identified in forum dialogue.

    I am not sure what you intended as a signal of non-seriousness, but it did not translate.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

  63. @AP
    @German_reader


    But I also have to say I don’t find it convincing to claim that Germany is the sole impediment for this, as if the US would allow itself to be vetoed by Germany (certainly didn’t happen in regard to many other issues, like the Iraq war or the nuclear agreement with Iran).
     
    Agree. Biden is not so great either. Ukraine can count on the UK, the Baltics, Poland and Turkey. The latter for different reasons than the others.

    Replies: @LatW

    Ukraine can count on the UK, the Baltics, Poland and Turkey.

    Agree. The last couple of days showed who is who, very interesting contours appeared. It reminds me of the north-south axis as opposed to east-west.

    Ukraine’s true friends & allies:

    – UK & Canada
    – Poland & The Baltics
    – Turkey (whether they’re a situational or natural ally is not yet clear)

    Potential friends: Sweden (the weapons supplied by the UK are Swedish made, Saab, Sweden in general has an insanely advanced weapons industry, it could potentially take the place of Germany vis a vis Ukraine), Norway, Denmark? Japan? Certain parts of the Russian opposition? Certain parts of the Belarusian nation? Georgia?

    Whether Germany is a neutral or a hostile country is a question.

    Current US administration… not too reliable as a friend or ally. The US should probably still put a little effort into trying to maintain their superpower status.

  64. @Svidomyatheart
    @German_reader

    Turks just want to see more dead slavs, thats the only thing they care about.

    NeoOttomanism is the endgame

    We just need their drones though....

    Replies: @LatW

    Turks..
    We just need their drones though….

    More than that.. there is potential political support as well as economic cooperation.
    You don’t have to love each other, just cooperate when it fits you.

  65. @songbird
    @A123


    Your #3 segregated groups inevitably means that the most dangerous assignments will be assigned and refused based on nationality
     
    You misapprehend me.

    My idea is to organize covert deportations by assigning ethnic non-Euro units to their native countries. Algerians to Algeria, Turks to Turkey and, so on. And since all those areas are secure, they could bring their spouses and children, to live on the bases with them.

    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke, and the regime would never support it. More likely they would send multicult units into Africa and MENA in order to pressgang the locals, and then import them into Europe, deploying them in the more isolated spots that still look like America in 1985. And possibly, during the process, subjecting them to the chemicals that turn frogs gay.

    The idea of a larger, coherent EU military is ludicrous.
     
    To a certain extent, pozzed Western Europe is on the same page.

    It all depends on where the fracture line lies. Whether Eastern Europe is already in the woke spiderweb, or whether it can pull free. If it can pull free, then what the gay EU needs is an organization to prevent Visegrád from making one, single long march to Portugal. But not effective enough to prevent them from repeatedly slicing chunks of it off, each time expelling and forcing the undesirables West, and making the part that remains weaker, and less palatable to the natives, who will either emigrate East or become a fifth column.

    Replies: @A123

    You misapprehend me.

    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke

    Sadly, humor is not always easily identified in forum dialogue.

    I am not sure what you intended as a signal of non-seriousness, but it did not translate.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I thought that last point was the tell.

    Guess I was relying on people knowing I'm sort of an isolationist. To a certain extent, I have also criticized mandatory service (as I think the regime is too woke, and it would probably decrease TFR). But maybe, I never communicated those ideas effectively.

    Oh, well, most of my jokes probably fall flat. But it is always fun trying to make them.

    Replies: @A123

  66. @Yellowface Anon
    @Thulean Friend

    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap and one of her favorite prophecy is half of Chinese (or the world's) people dying. All of those from our friend (the Chinese version of) The Epoch Times.

    Checked your claim and indeed the Chinese population is indeed going to half within this century, but everyone ahead of the demographic transition curve will, too: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2930677-2
    (the notorious Bill Gates Foundation paid for this)

    Her mental image is still a rapid societal collapse that literally kills off hundreds of millions, either from COVID (seriously) or war, and that should have been fulfilled the year that'd just passed. The only way she would be 100% right will be a quick demographic bust or nuclear MAD.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @songbird

    My superstitious mother has been parroting a great number of Chinese astrology crap

    Chinese astrology is very logical and benign compared to current Western superstitions.

    You should encourage it in her, and take it up yourself, so that you can post it, turning us into your disciples, so that we may one day teach the woke to consider the color black unlucky, instead of a sign of good fortune. Replace their love of it, with a love of the number 8, which is what we will increase the TFR to. And a love of yellow, so that we will go back to the gold standard.

    • Disagree: Yellowface Anon
    • LOL: LatW
  67. @Mikhail
    @Thulean Friend

    If Duda could only include Russia in that comment.

    Replies: @Aedib

    Without criticizing Russia, the Poles will simply cease to exist. Hatred toward Russia is the core of the Pole ethos. It is sometimes called “envy”.

    • LOL: A123
  68. @A123
    @songbird


    You misapprehend me.
    ...
    Of course, at this stage it is only a joke
     
    Sadly, humor is not always easily identified in forum dialogue.

    I am not sure what you intended as a signal of non-seriousness, but it did not translate.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    I thought that last point was the tell.

    Guess I was relying on people knowing I’m sort of an isolationist. To a certain extent, I have also criticized mandatory service (as I think the regime is too woke, and it would probably decrease TFR). But maybe, I never communicated those ideas effectively.

    Oh, well, most of my jokes probably fall flat. But it is always fun trying to make them.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird



    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I thought that last point was the tell.
     
    Among the serious propositions for ending the rape-ugee crisis is a "Stay in Africa" program. All asylum seekers would be denied EU entry. Instead they would be dispatched to an EU operated sanctuary in North Africa. No one would be allowed to proceed until their asylum application is 100% final and a host country grants permanent residence.

    Maintaining a MENA based EU Force (e.g. FRONTEX) in association with such a solution is practical and therefore not an inherently humorous "tell".

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

  69. It has always been a mystery to most Greeks what Russia thought it could gain by cosying up to Turkey, despite a Russian fighter being jet shot down, a diplomat killed and allowing Turk-adjacent Azeris to conquer an ancient Christian land. Turkey will never leave NATO and will only cause trouble for Russia around its periphery.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  70. @AP
    @Aedib

    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what’s your basis? Came across this piece:

    https://www.serbianmonitor.com/en/myths-and-truths-about-genetic-makeup-of-serbs/

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mikhail, @Yahya

  71. The below is coming from someone who worked with people in the Ukrainian government to find dirt (“opposition research”) on Donald Trump during the 2016 US presidential election campaign – leading to the prosecution of Paul Manafort on financial disclosure irregularity – having nothing to do with being some kind of a Russian government asset against the US.

    She made a reported over \$400,000 for her DNC connected work. Along with Evelyn Farkas, why doesn’t Twitter ban her for misinformation?

  72. @songbird
    @A123


    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I thought that last point was the tell.

    Guess I was relying on people knowing I'm sort of an isolationist. To a certain extent, I have also criticized mandatory service (as I think the regime is too woke, and it would probably decrease TFR). But maybe, I never communicated those ideas effectively.

    Oh, well, most of my jokes probably fall flat. But it is always fun trying to make them.

    Replies: @A123

    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA

    I thought that last point was the tell.

    Among the serious propositions for ending the rape-ugee crisis is a “Stay in Africa” program. All asylum seekers would be denied EU entry. Instead they would be dispatched to an EU operated sanctuary in North Africa. No one would be allowed to proceed until their asylum application is 100% final and a host country grants permanent residence.

    Maintaining a MENA based EU Force (e.g. FRONTEX) in association with such a solution is practical and therefore not an inherently humorous “tell”.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    therefore not an inherently humorous “tell”.
     
    Can see now that it might have helped a tad, if I had emboldened the word "certain." Or at least it would have been a better attempt. Anyway, your feedback is appreciated. Another problem that results in my jokes failing is I am often (though not always) half-serious, and sometimes that seriousness caries through, where the humor does not.

    On a more earnest note: I do believe that multiculturalism weakens the potentiality for isolationism, as each group will have a lobby. And progressives will probably be won over by some emotional argument. Plus, it also even weakens the natural inclinations of isolationists.

    People with an anti-colonial mindset will think, "Ah, but we are already being colonized without limit. Forced to pay huge sums that are transferred to foreign peoples living among us. Forced to pay for police forces to police them."

    At some point they will see figures where it costs less to do so overseas, making the whole thing more attractive.
  73. @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).

    Even immigrants from "troublesome" countries like Turkey, Iraq, Pakistan etc are highly Westernised. English being the lingua franca of business and science means that most immigrants already come knowing the language, shortening the process of integration further.

    Assuming China's populaton halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America. America seeks to remain the hegemon, so its hands are tied. A major reason why elites in 3rd world countries choose the US side is because their society is open to foreigners, an advantage that China cannot replicate. Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.

    Europe is in much worse shape since it doesn't have two giant oceans to act as natural filters, meaning overall immigrant quality tends to be much worse. OTOH, Europe doesn't aspire to be an empire and can afford to take a more isolationist policy. It also doesn't have any real stake in the US-China rivalry and the sooner Europeans accept this, the better. Europe's geopolitical position is actually the best of all five major blocs (US, CN, EU, India, Russia). It has no natural rivalries with any, not even Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian

    I thought you were an “environmentalist”. What you’re proposing is nothing less than the wholesale destruction of America’s remaining wilderness to pursue grubby imperial power-politics.

    The world’s population outside Africa and India, both regions with negligible state capability, are stagnant or declining, so why does America need a billion people? Besides, losing hegemony hardly entails an automatic decline in living standards, often the reverse in fact.

    Even Pakistani elites often have family and business in the US. The guy who headed CPEC had to step down recently because the Chinese were unhappy how he stalled things. It later came out his brother owns a number of businessess in America.

    Yes, because their own country is totally corrupt and dysfunctional, with extremely low average levels of trust. Eventually, in large enough numbers, they bring their own civilisational problems with them. Obviously, there are individual exceptions, but any insane plan of “1 billion Americans” makes that a footnote.

    I suppose a racially caste-divided billion-strong imperial USA sucking in the world’s talented 5% of Africans and Pajeets, pledging allegience as a sterile elite setting itself from the proles via sexual perversions (couple with an upside down puritanism), and hatred of the past would certainly eviscerate what remains of America’s middle-class… so you can consider that a win, I guess.

  74. @Mikhail
    @AP


    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.
     
    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what's your basis? Came across this piece:

    https://www.serbianmonitor.com/en/myths-and-truths-about-genetic-makeup-of-serbs/

    Replies: @AP

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @AP


    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.
     
    I'm no a haplogroup autiste or hard-HBD partisan, so I neither couldn't or would be interested in posting long genetic datapoints, but 25% 'Turkic' ancestry surely seems much too high. I'd say more like 5%, similar to 'Uralic' blood in Hungary.
    The interior Roman balkans were always lightly populated, and were then repeatedly sacked and burned by a half-millennium long series of migratians from the Goths onwards, so a lot of population replacement is expected.
    But Byzantine Anatolia had a much, much larger population, and was pretty peaceful other than internal Isaurian banditry, some civil wars, and Arab raids. Anatolian Greek ('Cappadocian, Ionian, Pontic'), Georgian ('Laz', found in Erdogan's own recent family) and Armenian (its heartland) formed a linguistic plurality, if not majority, until the late 18th century. And of course, the Sultans imported massive numbers of mostly Slavic concubines, who were a pretty fecund dynasty overall. Then there's the expulsions of (over time) over a million of Muslim Greeks or Bosnians with entirely European ancestry. So, 'racially' the real line between Europe and the Mid-East is probably the Tarsus Mountains, not the Bosphorus, at least before the Armenian genocide (East Anatolia was mostly replaced by Kurds, not Turks).
    Also just looking at Turks, how often do you see central asian features?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mikhail
    @AP


    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.
     
    In % terms how Turkic are the Serbs and just how accurate is the answer, given the different DNA testing results the number of folks involved in such a study is considerably limited when compared to voting in elections.
    , @Yahya
    @AP

    AP wrote:


    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

     

    Mikhail responded:

    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what’s your basis?
     
    A quick look at phenotypes would answer that question.

    Ukrainian national football team:


    https://www.kyivpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23/p1aei8sujup2kne1daj1g8v1bqj4/original.jpg


    Bulgarian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/e05279c95e041bc36b69afec217b96a5/tumblr_oep82uBrZ81tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    Serbian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/135b77c3e953554e2690e6facc7da8db/tumblr_paqmdaGu5E1tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs). The Slavicization of the Balkans was predominantly a process of natives adopting the language and acculturating into a Slavic identity; rather than genetic turnover. Much like the Arabization of the Middle East & North Africa; or the Anglicisation of Great Britain; or the Turkification of Anatolia; shifts in identity do not necessarily entail shifts in genetics.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Mikhail

  75. @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    rice for delusions: Erdogan,
     
    Well there is truth about the map, that governments like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, really love to promote Turkey, Erdogan, panturkism, etc. Kazakhstan's construction industry has been apparently mostly outsourced to Turkish companies.

    So I would not be surprised, Erdogan feels like he is somekind of Turkic shaman with those governments.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thl-XkLATBE

    Although it is probably a lot of the worship of Turkey in postsoviet countries, has been a result of the economic prestige of Turkey of the last couple decades. And in recent years, Turkey's economic miracle is looking quite unstable.

    If Turkey's economy continues to weaken for so long, you can question how attractive Turkey can be a model for these countries.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Yahya, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    Honestly, in the medium to long-term, I still see Turkey’s future as being very bright.
    The Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base (Iran is the only partial exception, but its industry is entirely autarkic), rich natural resources (with nearby gas/oil owned or disputed by very weak neighbors, or ethnic kin), a still vibrant national culture shielded by growing anti-Americanism, a young population still easily swayed by jingoism, with its constant aggression and ‘human-rights’ abuses being shielded by the fig-leaf of NATO membership.

    Obviously, I don’t say this much joy, given my own background, but I think Turkey will continue to remain a model of inspiration for many Muslims worldwide for sometime. The whole world is entering, or about to enter, a huge economic downturn anyway, so Turkey’s gov can easily shift blame for its crappy fiscal management.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Yevardian

    Perhaps the most delusional post over the last few months. Completely ignores ethnic Turk's worsening demographics, vulnerability to short term capital flows, despondent middle classes, inflated sense of nationhood which pushes them to idiotic gestures towards Central Asia and the antipathy from most of the Islamic world.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    Just my superficial impressions. Problems in Turkey's economy, can be more middle income trap than just the incompetent fiscal management?

    Turkey's economy was growing the 2000s. It managed to reach to the same level as Russia, but by manufacturing, rather than as a result of the increase in oil/gas prices that caused economic growth in Russia. So, for many observers, Turkey had seemed like more of successful economy at that time.

    Until the early or middle 2010s, Turkey's economy had been described as a real success by many journalists.

    But now of the last decade, it seems like Turkey has fallen hard in middle income trap. Their per capita income has stagnated at a level around Mexico in the GDP per capita ratings of the World Bank.

    And China (who are just beginning to join the middle income trap) seems to be already slightly above Turkey now on this measurement in the World Bank database.

    https://i.imgur.com/kkObz3P.jpg ​


    In the Balkans, it's well known about Greece's terrible economic problems, but Greece has still stagnated at a much higher level than the middle income trap countries. I guess Slovenia is the most successful economy in the Balkans (if you can include a neighbor of Austria, as being in the Balkans).


    Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base

     

    Among middle income countries (although "high income" in the World Bank categorization), Turkey's authorities have also an advantage of not being in the EU, to the extent this means their population is locked inside Turkey and cannot so easily emigrate (although many still can go to Germany). This is the same advantage in Russia - population is mostly trapped in the country and cannot escape. Similarly, China.

    By comparison, in those middle income countries like Bulgaria or Romania, there is EU membership, and much of the youth have escaped to high income countries of Western Europe. I guess Mexico has a similar situation, where much of their youth is escaping to the USA.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  76. @A123
    @songbird



    4.) Base certain units in forward bases in Africa and MENA
     
    I thought that last point was the tell.
     
    Among the serious propositions for ending the rape-ugee crisis is a "Stay in Africa" program. All asylum seekers would be denied EU entry. Instead they would be dispatched to an EU operated sanctuary in North Africa. No one would be allowed to proceed until their asylum application is 100% final and a host country grants permanent residence.

    Maintaining a MENA based EU Force (e.g. FRONTEX) in association with such a solution is practical and therefore not an inherently humorous "tell".

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird

    therefore not an inherently humorous “tell”.

    Can see now that it might have helped a tad, if I had emboldened the word “certain.” Or at least it would have been a better attempt. Anyway, your feedback is appreciated. Another problem that results in my jokes failing is I am often (though not always) half-serious, and sometimes that seriousness caries through, where the humor does not.

    On a more earnest note: I do believe that multiculturalism weakens the potentiality for isolationism, as each group will have a lobby. And progressives will probably be won over by some emotional argument. Plus, it also even weakens the natural inclinations of isolationists.

    People with an anti-colonial mindset will think, “Ah, but we are already being colonized without limit. Forced to pay huge sums that are transferred to foreign peoples living among us. Forced to pay for police forces to police them.”

    At some point they will see figures where it costs less to do so overseas, making the whole thing more attractive.

  77. @AP
    @Mikhail

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mikhail, @Yahya

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    I’m no a haplogroup autiste or hard-HBD partisan, so I neither couldn’t or would be interested in posting long genetic datapoints, but 25% ‘Turkic’ ancestry surely seems much too high. I’d say more like 5%, similar to ‘Uralic’ blood in Hungary.
    The interior Roman balkans were always lightly populated, and were then repeatedly sacked and burned by a half-millennium long series of migratians from the Goths onwards, so a lot of population replacement is expected.
    But Byzantine Anatolia had a much, much larger population, and was pretty peaceful other than internal Isaurian banditry, some civil wars, and Arab raids. Anatolian Greek (‘Cappadocian, Ionian, Pontic’), Georgian (‘Laz’, found in Erdogan’s own recent family) and Armenian (its heartland) formed a linguistic plurality, if not majority, until the late 18th century. And of course, the Sultans imported massive numbers of mostly Slavic concubines, who were a pretty fecund dynasty overall. Then there’s the expulsions of (over time) over a million of Muslim Greeks or Bosnians with entirely European ancestry. So, ‘racially’ the real line between Europe and the Mid-East is probably the Tarsus Mountains, not the Bosphorus, at least before the Armenian genocide (East Anatolia was mostly replaced by Kurds, not Turks).
    Also just looking at Turks, how often do you see central asian features?

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @AP
    @Yevardian


    I’m no a haplogroup autiste or hard-HBD partisan, so I neither couldn’t or would be interested in posting long genetic datapoints, but 25% ‘Turkic’ ancestry surely seems much too high
     
    I wrote about 25% Slavic ancestry for Serbs, and about 20% Turkic ancestry for Turks. But you are correct, Turkic ancestry of Turks it is lower than I recalled:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20supervised%20STRUCTURE%20(K,33%E2%80%9338)%2C%2018%25

    Depending on sample, 15% or 9% Central Asian ancestry among Turks.

    "For example, supervised STRUCTURE (K = 3) illustrates a genetic ancestry for the Turks of 45% Middle Eastern (95% CI, 42–49), 40% European (95% CI, 36–44), and 15% Central Asian (95% CI, 13–16), whereas at K = 4 the genetic ancestry of the Turks was 38% European (95% CI, 35–42), 35% Middle Eastern (95% CI, 33–38), 18% South Asian (95% CI, 16–19), and 9% Central Asian (95% CI, 7–11)"


    Also just looking at Turks, how often do you see central asian features?
     
    I've known some Turks and I've seen lots of Central Asians. Not all Turks have such features but frequently they do, though they are not so obvious.

    It's subtle, as one would expect given 10%-15% ancestry, but it's there. TV star Dr. Oz:

    https://variety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/dr.jpg

    The guy in the middle:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/The_friendly_people_of_Cappadocia._Goreme%2C_Central_Turkey.jpg

    Girl on left (doesn't look Georgian):

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Young_Meskhetian_Turks.jpg

  78. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry

    Honestly, in the medium to long-term, I still see Turkey's future as being very bright.
    The Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base (Iran is the only partial exception, but its industry is entirely autarkic), rich natural resources (with nearby gas/oil owned or disputed by very weak neighbors, or ethnic kin), a still vibrant national culture shielded by growing anti-Americanism, a young population still easily swayed by jingoism, with its constant aggression and 'human-rights' abuses being shielded by the fig-leaf of NATO membership.

    Obviously, I don't say this much joy, given my own background, but I think Turkey will continue to remain a model of inspiration for many Muslims worldwide for sometime. The whole world is entering, or about to enter, a huge economic downturn anyway, so Turkey's gov can easily shift blame for its crappy fiscal management.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @Dmitry

    Perhaps the most delusional post over the last few months. Completely ignores ethnic Turk’s worsening demographics, vulnerability to short term capital flows, despondent middle classes, inflated sense of nationhood which pushes them to idiotic gestures towards Central Asia and the antipathy from most of the Islamic world.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Agathoklis

    Literally all these problems are shared by Turkey's neighbors. Anyway in this instance, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, can you argue Greece is doing significantly better?
    Armenia, Georgia, Iraq and Syria's decade of catastrophe no elaboration.

    Replies: @songbird, @Agathoklis

  79. @Agathoklis
    @Yevardian

    Perhaps the most delusional post over the last few months. Completely ignores ethnic Turk's worsening demographics, vulnerability to short term capital flows, despondent middle classes, inflated sense of nationhood which pushes them to idiotic gestures towards Central Asia and the antipathy from most of the Islamic world.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    Literally all these problems are shared by Turkey’s neighbors. Anyway in this instance, I’d be happy to be proven wrong, can you argue Greece is doing significantly better?
    Armenia, Georgia, Iraq and Syria’s decade of catastrophe no elaboration.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yevardian

    Erdogan's 2010 scenario was Kurds becoming the majority by 2038. Don't know if he said anything about them possibly taking control of most of Turkey's water.

    Probably he was too pessimistic, by a wide margin. But I wonder about Kurds + Arabs, though.

    Anyway, anyone have an update on the TFR of Kurds?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @Agathoklis
    @Yevardian

    But I am not arguing about Greece. We have serious problems of our own but that is not the point.

    Your opinions of Turkey seem to be a copy of some Stratfor or Council of Foreign Relations wet dream.

  80. @AP
    @Mikhail

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mikhail, @Yahya

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    In % terms how Turkic are the Serbs and just how accurate is the answer, given the different DNA testing results the number of folks involved in such a study is considerably limited when compared to voting in elections.

  81. @Yevardian
    @Agathoklis

    Literally all these problems are shared by Turkey's neighbors. Anyway in this instance, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, can you argue Greece is doing significantly better?
    Armenia, Georgia, Iraq and Syria's decade of catastrophe no elaboration.

    Replies: @songbird, @Agathoklis

    Erdogan’s 2010 scenario was Kurds becoming the majority by 2038. Don’t know if he said anything about them possibly taking control of most of Turkey’s water.

    Probably he was too pessimistic, by a wide margin. But I wonder about Kurds + Arabs, though.

    Anyway, anyone have an update on the TFR of Kurds?

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    https://preview.redd.it/ug7sh3mqzfn61.png?auto=webp&s=1493a38a8bfb060e332b4b24b39d55bcffbbefb0

    Replies: @Yahya

  82. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I always wonder why Israel has such bad marketing with the leftists in Western Europe, when a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.
     
    Israel is seen as "white" because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are "brown" because they are oppressed. It doesn't matter if it's a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    Another explanation is that Israel's key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenazim. I doubt your average person around the world knows Israel's population is majority Mizrahi/Arab. They are mostly only exposed to images of Netanyahu and the like. Whereas the typical Palestinian photo is of working-class protestors; who tend to be more brown than white. If the media were to put a spotlight on the Palestinian upper class; then perhaps they would be seen as white not brown.


    Why is that? Is class in the Arab society of Levantine region, associated with lower mixing with Bedouin or something like that?
     
    There is virtually no study conducted on the correlation of skin color/phenotypic appearance and class in the Arab world. I don't imagine it would be of interest to many scholars; if it were it's probably not high on the priority list. I can only speak of my own experience in Egypt; where most people in my circle tend to look like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvRVSuDMc8&ab_channel=ON

    Whereas in the lower classes they look more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k0_9Y1XaC8&ab_channel=RT

    There's some overlap; but mostly they may as well be part of a different race. It's very peculiar and i'm not sure how to explain it. Ostensibly, both the upper and lower class are part of the same nationality and religion; so they should have similar appearances. But perhaps the genetic make-up is different. 23andMe put me down as 1-2% sub-Saharan (SSA) admixed; which is much lower than the Egyptian average of 10-20% SSA. I am somewhat skeptical of my 23andme results since it showed I had no peninsular Arab ancestry; which I know for a fact is not true. But I'm not surprised by the low SSA results; I don't have any visible negroid characteristics. Neither do most people in the upper and middle class. A fair number of people in the lower class do though. In the upper class; you'd also find some Northern European-looking dirty blondes with green or blue eyes - a legacy of the Circassian slave trade during the Islamic period. My friend has that phenotype; she thought she had Italian genes due to her families origins in Alexandria; though I pointed out it's more likely to be from the Caucasus region in Southern Russia. She then said "oh that's why people tell me I look Russian". Most dirty-blondes in Egypt are unaware of their slave background; it was too long ago.

    Anyway, all of the above is also applicable to the Levant; though they don't have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt. This is an middle-to-upper class choir in Damascus:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T661Or1NuPA&ab_channel=ZiadNajem

    They look almost uniformly "white"; whereas I'm sure the working class would have more "browns" so to speak. It's possible this is due to peninsular Arab admixture; though i'm very skeptical of that explanation. Most Syrians/Palestinians; even the brown-looking ones, look nothing like Saudi Arabians. The facial features are too different; their brown skin also tends to be of a noticeably different shade - lighter (more on this below).


    It doesn’t seem like this in the Arabian Peninsula.
     
    One plausible explanation is that class stratification is not as pronounced in Saudi Arabia, where complex civilization only took a hold very recently. The selective process would not have had time to make a dent. Social stratification is associated with complex civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant are some of the oldest civilizations; naturally social stratification is pronounced and inter-class marriage is discouraged. My cousin's family once cut him off for a few years for marrying a lower class woman; though they later reconciled.

    I know I studied with Saudi classmate who were very dark.
     
    The median Saudi Arabian is dark - very dark. Here's a video of Saudis performing a sword dancing routine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Their skin color is closer to Pakistanis than to Arabs in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria etc. Even supposedly Bedouin Palestinians are noticeably lighter:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssTcNpaRTQE&ab_channel=waeldeab

    They also have different facial features which is readily known to anyone familiar with Saudi Arabians. This is why I shake my head when people claim the Arab conquests replaced the pre-existing conquered populations in Egypt and the Levant; it's obvious to me just going off phenotypes that isn't true. My observations have been confirmed by several genetic studies showing genetic differentiation between Saudis and Arabized Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, Maghrebis etc. The Arabs didn't have the numbers nor the intention to replace their subjects.

    Replies: @A123, @Dmitry, @songbird

    median Saudi Arabian

    My experience of Saudi classmates is that they are seeming definitely a bit rednecks, although Saudis I met are charming.

    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.

    to the Levant; though they don’t have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt

    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?

    In the Middle East, the urban population is settled in the cities or surrounding agriculture land. So, elites are also these settled populations.

    But the desert is transit zone, where Arab tribes constantly moving.

    If you think about Jerusalem, there are forests all over the West of Jerusalem. But if you look at Southern East wall of the city, it goes almost straight to the desert, and this desert continues all the way to Cairo.

    From Cairo to Jerusalem, all desert, with historically nomadic populations. Also in the other direction probably to Riyadh, the Bedouin feel they should be able to transit.

    Unlike settled agriculture and urban population, these tribes are historically transiting goods and people. I believe they will accept other nationalities for marriage, like African origin women. And nationalities like Cushites have been moving up to Sinai since ancient times.

    Bedouin are sending their young men to join the Israeli army, because they presumably saw it as useful to have alliances with local governments.

    Bedouin were presumably conscripted also in Egyptian and Jordanian army against Israel? So, they must have been fighting on both sides against each other during 1967 or 1973 wars.

    For comparison, even in the Russian Empire, the illiterate peasants had mostly no understanding of nationality as late as the early 20th century. But in the Russian Empire, peasants are mostly settled populations, rooted into a very local agriculture.

    Middle East, there is so much desert, that becomes a transit zone with nomadic population. Anyway, this will be the theory I present for why you could see settled, urban local elites could reflect more of the pre-Islamic population ethnicity. But the unsettled population reflects more wide movement across latitudes.

    Israel’s key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenaz

    Israel’s politics is also idiotic in this area, how they promoted elitist aristocratic people like Isaac Herzog to be president (who is son of a president). It wouldn’t have cost anything to have some more representative demographically, or even socioeconomically, president. They don’t think about what kind of message they are saying to the world.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.

     

    There is an Israeli, Iraqi Jewish, travel YouTuber, who is darker than most Palestinians he reports about.

    He could be African American, but he is actually just a Jewish Israeli man.

    -

    Anyway I just wanted to post that he made a tourist vlog in Kiev, and interviewed these very bourgeois looking Ukrainian-American tourist women.

    This is at 4:30 in the video. I'm assuming these young women are from either AP or Mr Hack's family. Their impression of the bourgeois Ukrainian-American youth, is that Ukraine is "more depressing than we expected" (at 6:00 ).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHAf8x1thsU

    Replies: @AP

    , @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.
     
    Gulf Arab young females tend to be elegantly dressed and dignified in their manner; as typified by Princess Ameera Al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK31fQP_oGE&ab_channel=WorldGovernmentSummit

    This is especially true of Gulf female elites studying in the US. The contrast between them and the native American population is stark. They are also much more conservative in their behavior and manner of dress; due to upbringing and strict parental social control. My sister and a few other Gulf Arab girls formed a social clique when they were studying in the US. It might have been the wealthiest social group in the entire US student population. Some of them would invite my sister to their penthouses in Cannes and London for summer vacation as a matter of course. My family is fairly well-off; but some of these Kuwaiti and Qatari families made us look like beggars.

    Though I did feel sorry for a few of them who complained frequently of the stifling social restrictions which accompanies being a Gulf Arab woman. None of them were allowed to travel further than their university vicinity without their parents' presence. Obviously they also weren't allowed to drink or party; though some tried to a few times. Except for one or two, they also weren't what one would call "naturally good-looking"; though their elegant dress did improve their appearance somewhat. Levantine girls, by contrast, were far more loose and liberal; and much better looking. They may have been less wealthy, or less expensively dressed; but they were natural stunners.

    As for Gulf Arab males; they are neither elegantly dressed nor dignified in their behavior or mannerism. As you mentioned, they are basically rednecks with a lot of money. They are also extremely coddled and childish in their behavior. All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty etc. Most of them carry on being frivolous well into their late 20s and early 30s. Though they are friendly and gregarious in their own way; as you correctly outlined. I once attended a summer camp in Switzerland when I was a teenager. Most people there were other international elites from all over; Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Funniest guy was an obese Saudi Arabian with royal pedigree; though not from the powerful branch of the family. He had the whole place rolling on the floor with laughter. Unfortunately, he had to depart early after collapsing from exhaustion during a hiking activity.


    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?
     
    Egypt is sort of a world unto itself. It doesn't really belong to any of the subdivisions in the Arab world. This is due to its large population, which closely approximates or exceeds all other subdivisions. But in terms of "closeness", Egypt would almost certainly cluster with the Levant due to shared history; going all the way back to the Ancient Near East - even before the Arab conquests unified the region under a single ethnicity. Linguistically, Egypt has a noticeably different dialect than the Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon; though they are not mutually unintelligible as is the case with the Maghreb. In that sense, Egypt is more Middle Eastern than it is North African. Many elite Egyptians also have recent Levantine ancestry due to migration in the 20th century. Omar Sharif was one prominent example.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry, @iffen

  83. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    median Saudi Arabian
     
    My experience of Saudi classmates is that they are seeming definitely a bit rednecks, although Saudis I met are charming.

    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.


    to the Levant; though they don’t have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt
     
    Isn't Egypt categorized also as Levant?

    In the Middle East, the urban population is settled in the cities or surrounding agriculture land. So, elites are also these settled populations.

    But the desert is transit zone, where Arab tribes constantly moving.

    If you think about Jerusalem, there are forests all over the West of Jerusalem. But if you look at Southern East wall of the city, it goes almost straight to the desert, and this desert continues all the way to Cairo.

    From Cairo to Jerusalem, all desert, with historically nomadic populations. Also in the other direction probably to Riyadh, the Bedouin feel they should be able to transit.

    Unlike settled agriculture and urban population, these tribes are historically transiting goods and people. I believe they will accept other nationalities for marriage, like African origin women. And nationalities like Cushites have been moving up to Sinai since ancient times.

    Bedouin are sending their young men to join the Israeli army, because they presumably saw it as useful to have alliances with local governments.

    Bedouin were presumably conscripted also in Egyptian and Jordanian army against Israel? So, they must have been fighting on both sides against each other during 1967 or 1973 wars.

    For comparison, even in the Russian Empire, the illiterate peasants had mostly no understanding of nationality as late as the early 20th century. But in the Russian Empire, peasants are mostly settled populations, rooted into a very local agriculture.

    Middle East, there is so much desert, that becomes a transit zone with nomadic population. Anyway, this will be the theory I present for why you could see settled, urban local elites could reflect more of the pre-Islamic population ethnicity. But the unsettled population reflects more wide movement across latitudes.


    Israel’s key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenaz
     
    Israel's politics is also idiotic in this area, how they promoted elitist aristocratic people like Isaac Herzog to be president (who is son of a president). It wouldn't have cost anything to have some more representative demographically, or even socioeconomically, president. They don't think about what kind of message they are saying to the world.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yahya

    a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.

    There is an Israeli, Iraqi Jewish, travel YouTuber, who is darker than most Palestinians he reports about.

    He could be African American, but he is actually just a Jewish Israeli man.

    Anyway I just wanted to post that he made a tourist vlog in Kiev, and interviewed these very bourgeois looking Ukrainian-American tourist women.

    This is at 4:30 in the video. I’m assuming these young women are from either AP or Mr Hack’s family. Their impression of the bourgeois Ukrainian-American youth, is that Ukraine is “more depressing than we expected” (at 6:00 ).

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    The girls are from Pentascostal families, so not relatives. They are nice though.

    On several trips to Ukraine I ran into people I know from North America, without having planned a meeting.

  84. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I always wonder why Israel has such bad marketing with the leftists in Western Europe, when a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.
     
    Israel is seen as "white" because it is perceived to be the oppressor; and Palestinians are "brown" because they are oppressed. It doesn't matter if it's a black Ethiopian/Yemeni Jew oppressing a dirty blonde, blue-eyed Palestinian. The former is white, the latter is brown; because oppressors can only be white, and victims can only be brown.

    Another explanation is that Israel's key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenazim. I doubt your average person around the world knows Israel's population is majority Mizrahi/Arab. They are mostly only exposed to images of Netanyahu and the like. Whereas the typical Palestinian photo is of working-class protestors; who tend to be more brown than white. If the media were to put a spotlight on the Palestinian upper class; then perhaps they would be seen as white not brown.


    Why is that? Is class in the Arab society of Levantine region, associated with lower mixing with Bedouin or something like that?
     
    There is virtually no study conducted on the correlation of skin color/phenotypic appearance and class in the Arab world. I don't imagine it would be of interest to many scholars; if it were it's probably not high on the priority list. I can only speak of my own experience in Egypt; where most people in my circle tend to look like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvRVSuDMc8&ab_channel=ON

    Whereas in the lower classes they look more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k0_9Y1XaC8&ab_channel=RT

    There's some overlap; but mostly they may as well be part of a different race. It's very peculiar and i'm not sure how to explain it. Ostensibly, both the upper and lower class are part of the same nationality and religion; so they should have similar appearances. But perhaps the genetic make-up is different. 23andMe put me down as 1-2% sub-Saharan (SSA) admixed; which is much lower than the Egyptian average of 10-20% SSA. I am somewhat skeptical of my 23andme results since it showed I had no peninsular Arab ancestry; which I know for a fact is not true. But I'm not surprised by the low SSA results; I don't have any visible negroid characteristics. Neither do most people in the upper and middle class. A fair number of people in the lower class do though. In the upper class; you'd also find some Northern European-looking dirty blondes with green or blue eyes - a legacy of the Circassian slave trade during the Islamic period. My friend has that phenotype; she thought she had Italian genes due to her families origins in Alexandria; though I pointed out it's more likely to be from the Caucasus region in Southern Russia. She then said "oh that's why people tell me I look Russian". Most dirty-blondes in Egypt are unaware of their slave background; it was too long ago.

    Anyway, all of the above is also applicable to the Levant; though they don't have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt. This is an middle-to-upper class choir in Damascus:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T661Or1NuPA&ab_channel=ZiadNajem

    They look almost uniformly "white"; whereas I'm sure the working class would have more "browns" so to speak. It's possible this is due to peninsular Arab admixture; though i'm very skeptical of that explanation. Most Syrians/Palestinians; even the brown-looking ones, look nothing like Saudi Arabians. The facial features are too different; their brown skin also tends to be of a noticeably different shade - lighter (more on this below).


    It doesn’t seem like this in the Arabian Peninsula.
     
    One plausible explanation is that class stratification is not as pronounced in Saudi Arabia, where complex civilization only took a hold very recently. The selective process would not have had time to make a dent. Social stratification is associated with complex civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Levant are some of the oldest civilizations; naturally social stratification is pronounced and inter-class marriage is discouraged. My cousin's family once cut him off for a few years for marrying a lower class woman; though they later reconciled.

    I know I studied with Saudi classmate who were very dark.
     
    The median Saudi Arabian is dark - very dark. Here's a video of Saudis performing a sword dancing routine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Their skin color is closer to Pakistanis than to Arabs in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria etc. Even supposedly Bedouin Palestinians are noticeably lighter:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssTcNpaRTQE&ab_channel=waeldeab

    They also have different facial features which is readily known to anyone familiar with Saudi Arabians. This is why I shake my head when people claim the Arab conquests replaced the pre-existing conquered populations in Egypt and the Levant; it's obvious to me just going off phenotypes that isn't true. My observations have been confirmed by several genetic studies showing genetic differentiation between Saudis and Arabized Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, Maghrebis etc. The Arabs didn't have the numbers nor the intention to replace their subjects.

    Replies: @A123, @Dmitry, @songbird

    Social stratification is associated with complex civilization.

    What I have heard is that among the Tuareg, they have caste. And the people with more recent slave ancestry (darker) are lower caste.

    It’s interesting on a lot of levels. The Tuareg seem to be considered to be generally more negroid-looking than Berbers, but descended from Berbers. And the difference is attributed to the slave trade, which presumably was due to the introduction of the camel, and the highest caste seem to own all the camels, and I imagine have the least negroid admixture.

    It is almost like they weren’t buying their own goods, or else they had multiple concubines and the wives inherited.

    Wikipedia seems to have a lot of detail on it. Surprisingly complex stratification for nomads:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#Social_stratification

  85. @songbird
    Watched first hour of the 1976 BBC adaptation of I, Claudius. My review will sound like sniping, but that is just how I roll, as I hate nearly all TV, but especially British. I will review it on two levels:
    anthropological: (fascinating)

    Wonder what Robert Graves (he was on set) thought of seeing topless Negresses twerking in thongs in the first ten minutes of the adaptation of his historical novel about the Roman Empire. Or the fact that Marcellus's doctor was Indian. Or that the dialogue included proposals to have gladiatorial combats between Germans and "black Moroccans."

    Fascinating how they ran a Nat Geo gambit. Apparently, trying to sex it up with mostly-naked Negresses shaking their T & A, and believing the public would tolerate it because they are so different and alien-looking that it is plausible that it is not really pornographic, but merely a bizarre cultural demonstration from the darkest heart of primitive Africa.

    Wonder if they only had the budget to pay for three (think that was the number, though hard to tell in small screen format) to get naked, or else it was their strategy against censorship to bookend it with two that were (sort of) clothed.

    Some leftist dialogue critiquing the meme-phrase "not what it used to be." (about the Roman theater, which is kind of meta). Though, that is the only non-racial point I caught.

    artistic: (awful)

    I'll allow that it is a hard story to adapt, but I thought the narrative structure was really awful. Claudius hardly appears at all, mostly he is recounting events before he was born, or an old man who is alone, acting like a quasi-ghost. The one scene where he was supposed to be a boy, at the oracle, but there is no boy, just the adult actor is so jarring that I find it impossible to develop any sympathy for the character.

    It was too theatrical, which I always interpret as a conceit.

    Sound design was pretty bad. Due to budget constraints (£442,000/episode, in 2020 pounds), they sought to add depth by adding background sounds, like crowd noises or birds chirping, but it just makes the thing more garbled.

    People say that old British television was "cozy", which I don't think works well, when trying to set a story in the glory days of Imperial Rome.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail

    The “coziness” is part of the charm of it all. You’ll either hate or appreciate this “all in the family’ feeling throughout the whole series, especially when the whole family gets together in the evenings after dinner, and exchanges pleasantries and gossip with Caesar who is at the center of it all, downing his last goblet of wine for the day just before retiring. The sarcasm on display during these close encounters is laid on quite thick at times. Allow it some more time to grow on you, perhaps watch the first 3-4 series before trying to form an initial opinion. And the individual acting? I think that this is where the whole series really shines.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps, labor laws prevented them from using a child actor. (If I were shooting it, I would have had Claudius as a boy, throughout the whole of the first episode.)

    Am glad that they didn't give Claudius a cockney accent (was half-expecting that), though I think I would have preferred the actor who played Augustus. I've personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don't think they conveyed that well.

    I wonder whether GR has ever read the book. They say that the German version is different and that Graves was deeply involved in it. But maybe he wouldn't like it, as it is the two books sort of combined, with a lot cut out. (I didn't like the second one).

    BTW, also read the first chapter of that book you recommended. Am quite enjoying it so far, though it may be a while before I finish it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  86. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry

    Honestly, in the medium to long-term, I still see Turkey's future as being very bright.
    The Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base (Iran is the only partial exception, but its industry is entirely autarkic), rich natural resources (with nearby gas/oil owned or disputed by very weak neighbors, or ethnic kin), a still vibrant national culture shielded by growing anti-Americanism, a young population still easily swayed by jingoism, with its constant aggression and 'human-rights' abuses being shielded by the fig-leaf of NATO membership.

    Obviously, I don't say this much joy, given my own background, but I think Turkey will continue to remain a model of inspiration for many Muslims worldwide for sometime. The whole world is entering, or about to enter, a huge economic downturn anyway, so Turkey's gov can easily shift blame for its crappy fiscal management.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @Dmitry

    Just my superficial impressions. Problems in Turkey’s economy, can be more middle income trap than just the incompetent fiscal management?

    Turkey’s economy was growing the 2000s. It managed to reach to the same level as Russia, but by manufacturing, rather than as a result of the increase in oil/gas prices that caused economic growth in Russia. So, for many observers, Turkey had seemed like more of successful economy at that time.

    Until the early or middle 2010s, Turkey’s economy had been described as a real success by many journalists.

    But now of the last decade, it seems like Turkey has fallen hard in middle income trap. Their per capita income has stagnated at a level around Mexico in the GDP per capita ratings of the World Bank.

    And China (who are just beginning to join the middle income trap) seems to be already slightly above Turkey now on this measurement in the World Bank database.

    In the Balkans, it’s well known about Greece’s terrible economic problems, but Greece has still stagnated at a much higher level than the middle income trap countries. I guess Slovenia is the most successful economy in the Balkans (if you can include a neighbor of Austria, as being in the Balkans).

    Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base

    Among middle income countries (although “high income” in the World Bank categorization), Turkey’s authorities have also an advantage of not being in the EU, to the extent this means their population is locked inside Turkey and cannot so easily emigrate (although many still can go to Germany). This is the same advantage in Russia – population is mostly trapped in the country and cannot escape. Similarly, China.

    By comparison, in those middle income countries like Bulgaria or Romania, there is EU membership, and much of the youth have escaped to high income countries of Western Europe. I guess Mexico has a similar situation, where much of their youth is escaping to the USA.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Dmitry

    Erdogan borrowed a lot money, now the bills are coming. The opposite of Russia really.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  87. @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Erdogan is pretty much an Islamic fundamentalist with an extensive record of supporting jihadi head-choppers and threatening Greece/insulting various EU states (and trying to utilize the Turkish diaspora for his goals). Not sure if such "friends" will do Ukraine any good, and if he supports NATO membership for Ukraine there's definitely some very dubious agenda behind it. If anything, Turkey should have been removed from NATO long ago.

    Replies: @AP, @Svidomyatheart, @Mr. Hack

    Turkey is important as a southern flank against a revitalized Russian empire, therefore its importance cannot be underemphasized. Its support for Ukraine may be based more on its own mercantile interests than anything else, as it is fast becoming a key supplier of arms for Ukraine, including of course joint economic ventures in these endeavors. With few powerful friends in the neighborhood, this sort of direct vocal support, even if regarded as just political bluster or bravado is still, I’m sure, quite welcome to hear in Kyiv. It would be interesting to hear similar support from Poland and the Baltic countries too.

  88. @Yevardian
    @AP


    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.
     
    I'm no a haplogroup autiste or hard-HBD partisan, so I neither couldn't or would be interested in posting long genetic datapoints, but 25% 'Turkic' ancestry surely seems much too high. I'd say more like 5%, similar to 'Uralic' blood in Hungary.
    The interior Roman balkans were always lightly populated, and were then repeatedly sacked and burned by a half-millennium long series of migratians from the Goths onwards, so a lot of population replacement is expected.
    But Byzantine Anatolia had a much, much larger population, and was pretty peaceful other than internal Isaurian banditry, some civil wars, and Arab raids. Anatolian Greek ('Cappadocian, Ionian, Pontic'), Georgian ('Laz', found in Erdogan's own recent family) and Armenian (its heartland) formed a linguistic plurality, if not majority, until the late 18th century. And of course, the Sultans imported massive numbers of mostly Slavic concubines, who were a pretty fecund dynasty overall. Then there's the expulsions of (over time) over a million of Muslim Greeks or Bosnians with entirely European ancestry. So, 'racially' the real line between Europe and the Mid-East is probably the Tarsus Mountains, not the Bosphorus, at least before the Armenian genocide (East Anatolia was mostly replaced by Kurds, not Turks).
    Also just looking at Turks, how often do you see central asian features?

    Replies: @AP

    I’m no a haplogroup autiste or hard-HBD partisan, so I neither couldn’t or would be interested in posting long genetic datapoints, but 25% ‘Turkic’ ancestry surely seems much too high

    I wrote about 25% Slavic ancestry for Serbs, and about 20% Turkic ancestry for Turks. But you are correct, Turkic ancestry of Turks it is lower than I recalled:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20supervised%20STRUCTURE%20(K,33%E2%80%9338)%2C%2018%25

    Depending on sample, 15% or 9% Central Asian ancestry among Turks.

    “For example, supervised STRUCTURE (K = 3) illustrates a genetic ancestry for the Turks of 45% Middle Eastern (95% CI, 42–49), 40% European (95% CI, 36–44), and 15% Central Asian (95% CI, 13–16), whereas at K = 4 the genetic ancestry of the Turks was 38% European (95% CI, 35–42), 35% Middle Eastern (95% CI, 33–38), 18% South Asian (95% CI, 16–19), and 9% Central Asian (95% CI, 7–11)”

    Also just looking at Turks, how often do you see central asian features?

    I’ve known some Turks and I’ve seen lots of Central Asians. Not all Turks have such features but frequently they do, though they are not so obvious.

    It’s subtle, as one would expect given 10%-15% ancestry, but it’s there. TV star Dr. Oz:

    The guy in the middle:

    Girl on left (doesn’t look Georgian):

  89. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    What exactly does "moral support" mean in a war? Holding coat for Zelensky is he runs away?

    Erdogan is a dirty player, his interest is purely in creating discord between Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Azeris, etc...he hopes to benefit from any created chaos. Otherwise, Turkey is quite poor and can't compete head to head. They cannot take on Russia.

    Too many would benefit from a Russian-Ukie bloodbath - the blood would be on the Kiev side. So they stir it on. But what is at stake is whether Ukraine will be a large military base on the Russian border run by Washington. That's the plan and Russia s opposed. Ask yourself only two questions:

    - How important is it for people in the West to have a Ukie country-size military base on the Russian border?
    - How important is it for Russia to prevent it?

    Whatever happens, I don't think the plan to have the Nato bases in Ukraine will happen. Something else will.

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

    You characteristically omit the third question:

    Should Ukrainians just lay down their guns before a shooting match even starts, to a neighbor that has consistently shown no respect for Ukraine’s own nation/state aspirations? Let’s wait and see how this whole situation progresses before blurting out our own preferences for this large and “important” country. I’m betting that Russia is about to make one of its biggest blunders in this new century, but let’s wait and see.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Mr. Hack

    Don’t worry, the Russians will not step in if the Ukrainians make no a first movement against the Donbass. The Kiev regime is still fantasizing about an “operation Storm” in the Donbass. It will not happen. What the Ukrainian regime needs is to fulfill what it signed in Minsk.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  90. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    a lot of Jews are more “people of color”, while many Arabs can be more white appearing than the Jewish population.

     

    There is an Israeli, Iraqi Jewish, travel YouTuber, who is darker than most Palestinians he reports about.

    He could be African American, but he is actually just a Jewish Israeli man.

    -

    Anyway I just wanted to post that he made a tourist vlog in Kiev, and interviewed these very bourgeois looking Ukrainian-American tourist women.

    This is at 4:30 in the video. I'm assuming these young women are from either AP or Mr Hack's family. Their impression of the bourgeois Ukrainian-American youth, is that Ukraine is "more depressing than we expected" (at 6:00 ).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHAf8x1thsU

    Replies: @AP

    The girls are from Pentascostal families, so not relatives. They are nice though.

    On several trips to Ukraine I ran into people I know from North America, without having planned a meeting.

  91. @Mr. Hack
    @songbird

    The "coziness" is part of the charm of it all. You'll either hate or appreciate this "all in the family' feeling throughout the whole series, especially when the whole family gets together in the evenings after dinner, and exchanges pleasantries and gossip with Caesar who is at the center of it all, downing his last goblet of wine for the day just before retiring. The sarcasm on display during these close encounters is laid on quite thick at times. Allow it some more time to grow on you, perhaps watch the first 3-4 series before trying to form an initial opinion. And the individual acting? I think that this is where the whole series really shines.

    Replies: @songbird

    Perhaps, labor laws prevented them from using a child actor. (If I were shooting it, I would have had Claudius as a boy, throughout the whole of the first episode.)

    Am glad that they didn’t give Claudius a cockney accent (was half-expecting that), though I think I would have preferred the actor who played Augustus. I’ve personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don’t think they conveyed that well.

    I wonder whether GR has ever read the book. They say that the German version is different and that Graves was deeply involved in it. But maybe he wouldn’t like it, as it is the two books sort of combined, with a lot cut out. (I didn’t like the second one).

    BTW, also read the first chapter of that book you recommended. Am quite enjoying it so far, though it may be a while before I finish it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @songbird


    I’ve personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don’t think they conveyed that well.
     
    Ah, you've touched on an important sub-plot of the whole series! Actually, he grows in intelligence and actually in wisdom from chapter to chapter. It's quite interesting to watch how he often hides behind his supposed feeble mind only to outwit all of his detractors. You'll see him mature as an accomplished historian of family affairs, as indeed most of the drama surrounds his role as this family historian. Keep watching, I don't think that you'll be disappointed!

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

  92. @songbird
    @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps, labor laws prevented them from using a child actor. (If I were shooting it, I would have had Claudius as a boy, throughout the whole of the first episode.)

    Am glad that they didn't give Claudius a cockney accent (was half-expecting that), though I think I would have preferred the actor who played Augustus. I've personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don't think they conveyed that well.

    I wonder whether GR has ever read the book. They say that the German version is different and that Graves was deeply involved in it. But maybe he wouldn't like it, as it is the two books sort of combined, with a lot cut out. (I didn't like the second one).

    BTW, also read the first chapter of that book you recommended. Am quite enjoying it so far, though it may be a while before I finish it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’ve personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don’t think they conveyed that well.

    Ah, you’ve touched on an important sub-plot of the whole series! Actually, he grows in intelligence and actually in wisdom from chapter to chapter. It’s quite interesting to watch how he often hides behind his supposed feeble mind only to outwit all of his detractors. You’ll see him mature as an accomplished historian of family affairs, as indeed most of the drama surrounds his role as this family historian. Keep watching, I don’t think that you’ll be disappointed!

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Mr. Hack

    According to Sutonius there was absolutely nothing remarkable about Claudius besides his blood relation to Augustus. Graves took a liking to him for literary purposes.

    I enjoyed the books and the tv shows though!

    Augustus' wife is one of the great characters in literature and in what passes for the history books. In real life she was probably nearly as dull as the old lady who lived next door who hated you for walking on her grass.

    Replies: @songbird

  93. Biden on Russia-Ukraine

    Re: https://dailycaller.com/2022/01/19/administration-officials-forced-clean-up-bidens-ukraine-remarks/

    A roundabout way of acknowledging what I brought up this past April, when there was a brief increased Russian military buildup near the Russian-Ukrainian border. That happened after (not before) the Kiev regime’s military buildup near the Donbass rebels:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/04/14/cnn-blatant-disinformation-about-russia-ukraine-activity/

    Excerpt –

    Many of the Donbass residents have Russian citizenship and/or familial links to Russia. The Russian government is well aware of a hypothetical Croatian Operation Storm scenario, which will be problematical for Russia, in terms of taking in a considerable number of Donbass residents and having nationalist anti-Russian elements in a stronger position.

    In response to the increased Ukrainian government military presence near the rebels, Russia’s armed buildup along a portion of Ukraine’s northeastern border and stern statements, have sent a clear message that Moscow will not stand idly by in the event of a Croatian Operation Storm like move. The Ukrainian government could very well lose additional territory in a military confrontation with Russia.

    Note that Biden’s press conference and mass media follow-up skirted the problem the US government faces if it implements a proposed SWIFT sanction on Russia. That move would severely screw up the global economy.

    Europe will be lacking an otherwise reliable and comparatively cheap fossil fuel option. In addition to exporting other key items, Russia, the number one exporter of grain and advanced nuclear reactors, will not be able to conduct business, thus leading to a boomerang effect.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Europe can of course find other outlets to procure grain and nuclear devices. It'll be harder for Russia to find new places to dump their grain and build their nuclear reactors. I can foresee the competition writing up new orders already. It'll just be an increase of sanctions on Russia and further tightening of its abilities to do business in the world, that's all already been going on since 2014. And China, I suppose, will also gain in its ability to buy more supplies and natural resources for its ever increasing industries at depressed prices. When will Russia's people and cheerleaders see what's really going on?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  94. @songbird
    Watched first hour of the 1976 BBC adaptation of I, Claudius. My review will sound like sniping, but that is just how I roll, as I hate nearly all TV, but especially British. I will review it on two levels:
    anthropological: (fascinating)

    Wonder what Robert Graves (he was on set) thought of seeing topless Negresses twerking in thongs in the first ten minutes of the adaptation of his historical novel about the Roman Empire. Or the fact that Marcellus's doctor was Indian. Or that the dialogue included proposals to have gladiatorial combats between Germans and "black Moroccans."

    Fascinating how they ran a Nat Geo gambit. Apparently, trying to sex it up with mostly-naked Negresses shaking their T & A, and believing the public would tolerate it because they are so different and alien-looking that it is plausible that it is not really pornographic, but merely a bizarre cultural demonstration from the darkest heart of primitive Africa.

    Wonder if they only had the budget to pay for three (think that was the number, though hard to tell in small screen format) to get naked, or else it was their strategy against censorship to bookend it with two that were (sort of) clothed.

    Some leftist dialogue critiquing the meme-phrase "not what it used to be." (about the Roman theater, which is kind of meta). Though, that is the only non-racial point I caught.

    artistic: (awful)

    I'll allow that it is a hard story to adapt, but I thought the narrative structure was really awful. Claudius hardly appears at all, mostly he is recounting events before he was born, or an old man who is alone, acting like a quasi-ghost. The one scene where he was supposed to be a boy, at the oracle, but there is no boy, just the adult actor is so jarring that I find it impossible to develop any sympathy for the character.

    It was too theatrical, which I always interpret as a conceit.

    Sound design was pretty bad. Due to budget constraints (£442,000/episode, in 2020 pounds), they sought to add depth by adding background sounds, like crowd noises or birds chirping, but it just makes the thing more garbled.

    People say that old British television was "cozy", which I don't think works well, when trying to set a story in the glory days of Imperial Rome.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail

    Keeping in mind the era it was made, I thought it was pretty good.

    • Thanks: songbird
  95. @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    I did and I still do. What other choice does America have? Their white population is probably no more than 190 million (once you discount MENA/Central Asians). Most of their immigrants are either Latinx (low skill but high cultural assimilation) or Asian (both).
     
    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.

    Assuming China’s population halves by the end of this century, it will retain a gigantic population advantage over White America
     
    Even at current numbers China isn't as powerful as the USA. 200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.

    I would go one step further. A lot of Latinx immigrants are already assimilated to Euro-Western culture when they arrive. That’s why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural ‘costs’. A privilege unavailable to Europe vis-a-vis MENA.

    200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.

    There won’t be 200 million white Americans by the end of this century, “aspirational self-identification” notwithstanding. It’ll be lower than today, which is already just 190 million. And there will be closer to 700-750 million Chinese.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Thulean Friend

    Hispanics are not supplementing white America, they are supplanting it. That's just obvious, no matter what "pre-fabricated westerners" fairy-tales you dream up.

    (And if AP believed his own bullshit, he'd be doing his damndest to redirect hispanic flows to Ukraine, which is facing a demographic winter of its own. Just think: if Ukraine could just tap into the vast reserves of demographic strength in Latin America, Russia wouldn't stand a chance!)

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Thulean Friend


    That’s why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural ‘costs’.
     
    They don't even have to mover here. I'mfew
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Thulean Friend

    I would go even one step further than you and say that these Latinos don't necessarily have to all come over to the US but can stay at home, and even for some Asians too. I bring up the call center industry once again, and this is one of the service industry's biggest magnets for new jobs. On a daily basis, I communicate with folks that work either in Costa Rica or in the Philippines that provide me information on insurance and investment accounts. Although they have their own brand of English accents when speaking, generally the level of communication is quite good. The difference between the US and Russia is quite stark when it comes to trying to assimilate peoples of other cultures and languages. Russia is still trying to do it the old fashioned way, rattling and using their sabres, whereas the US takes a much softer and unobtrusive approach, using jobs and gibs to do the same. I don't seee the Russian language really expanding outside of Russia anymore, the same could be said for China too. English is still the dominant language in the world and will be for the foreseeable future.

  96. @Yellowface Anon
    @Thulean Friend

    3 Trillion and that is equivalent to India's GDP? Nominal GDP fluctuates so much it's meaningless. Just look at PPP, that's more meaningful and less prone to exchange rate swings. China now has steady but prematurely slowing growth.

    Also read what's at the root of Hanania's argument - all the other East Asian states aren't as authoritarian and aren't willing to silence anti-natal "wrongthink".

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Also read what’s at the root of Hanania’s argument – all the other East Asian states aren’t as authoritarian and aren’t willing to silence anti-natal “wrongthink”.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/1482563545883623425

    China can soften the blow, perhaps, but not prevent it.

  97. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.
     
    I would go one step further. A lot of Latinx immigrants are already assimilated to Euro-Western culture when they arrive. That's why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural 'costs'. A privilege unavailable to Europe vis-a-vis MENA.

    200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.
     
    There won't be 200 million white Americans by the end of this century, "aspirational self-identification" notwithstanding. It'll be lower than today, which is already just 190 million. And there will be closer to 700-750 million Chinese.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    Hispanics are not supplementing white America, they are supplanting it. That’s just obvious, no matter what “pre-fabricated westerners” fairy-tales you dream up.

    (And if AP believed his own bullshit, he’d be doing his damndest to redirect hispanic flows to Ukraine, which is facing a demographic winter of its own. Just think: if Ukraine could just tap into the vast reserves of demographic strength in Latin America, Russia wouldn’t stand a chance!)

  98. @Yevardian
    @Agathoklis

    Literally all these problems are shared by Turkey's neighbors. Anyway in this instance, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, can you argue Greece is doing significantly better?
    Armenia, Georgia, Iraq and Syria's decade of catastrophe no elaboration.

    Replies: @songbird, @Agathoklis

    But I am not arguing about Greece. We have serious problems of our own but that is not the point.

    Your opinions of Turkey seem to be a copy of some Stratfor or Council of Foreign Relations wet dream.

  99. @songbird
    @Yevardian

    Erdogan's 2010 scenario was Kurds becoming the majority by 2038. Don't know if he said anything about them possibly taking control of most of Turkey's water.

    Probably he was too pessimistic, by a wide margin. But I wonder about Kurds + Arabs, though.

    Anyway, anyone have an update on the TFR of Kurds?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    • Thanks: silviosilver, songbird
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Yellowface Anon

    A side-by-side comparison of fertility and IQ for each region is illuminating.

    https://preview.redd.it/ug7sh3mqzfn61.png?auto=webp&s=1493a38a8bfb060e332b4b24b39d55bcffbbefb0

    https://preview.redd.it/oadjdc17nw201.png?auto=webp&s=033ab6186ae6674603dfd3daca650f94d81727e3

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  100. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    median Saudi Arabian
     
    My experience of Saudi classmates is that they are seeming definitely a bit rednecks, although Saudis I met are charming.

    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.


    to the Levant; though they don’t have nearly as much phenotypic variation as Egypt
     
    Isn't Egypt categorized also as Levant?

    In the Middle East, the urban population is settled in the cities or surrounding agriculture land. So, elites are also these settled populations.

    But the desert is transit zone, where Arab tribes constantly moving.

    If you think about Jerusalem, there are forests all over the West of Jerusalem. But if you look at Southern East wall of the city, it goes almost straight to the desert, and this desert continues all the way to Cairo.

    From Cairo to Jerusalem, all desert, with historically nomadic populations. Also in the other direction probably to Riyadh, the Bedouin feel they should be able to transit.

    Unlike settled agriculture and urban population, these tribes are historically transiting goods and people. I believe they will accept other nationalities for marriage, like African origin women. And nationalities like Cushites have been moving up to Sinai since ancient times.

    Bedouin are sending their young men to join the Israeli army, because they presumably saw it as useful to have alliances with local governments.

    Bedouin were presumably conscripted also in Egyptian and Jordanian army against Israel? So, they must have been fighting on both sides against each other during 1967 or 1973 wars.

    For comparison, even in the Russian Empire, the illiterate peasants had mostly no understanding of nationality as late as the early 20th century. But in the Russian Empire, peasants are mostly settled populations, rooted into a very local agriculture.

    Middle East, there is so much desert, that becomes a transit zone with nomadic population. Anyway, this will be the theory I present for why you could see settled, urban local elites could reflect more of the pre-Islamic population ethnicity. But the unsettled population reflects more wide movement across latitudes.


    Israel’s key demographic; the ones who get the most international media attention, are the elite ruling class Ashkenaz
     
    Israel's politics is also idiotic in this area, how they promoted elitist aristocratic people like Isaac Herzog to be president (who is son of a president). It wouldn't have cost anything to have some more representative demographically, or even socioeconomically, president. They don't think about what kind of message they are saying to the world.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yahya

    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.

    Gulf Arab young females tend to be elegantly dressed and dignified in their manner; as typified by Princess Ameera Al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia:

    This is especially true of Gulf female elites studying in the US. The contrast between them and the native American population is stark. They are also much more conservative in their behavior and manner of dress; due to upbringing and strict parental social control. My sister and a few other Gulf Arab girls formed a social clique when they were studying in the US. It might have been the wealthiest social group in the entire US student population. Some of them would invite my sister to their penthouses in Cannes and London for summer vacation as a matter of course. My family is fairly well-off; but some of these Kuwaiti and Qatari families made us look like beggars.

    Though I did feel sorry for a few of them who complained frequently of the stifling social restrictions which accompanies being a Gulf Arab woman. None of them were allowed to travel further than their university vicinity without their parents’ presence. Obviously they also weren’t allowed to drink or party; though some tried to a few times. Except for one or two, they also weren’t what one would call “naturally good-looking”; though their elegant dress did improve their appearance somewhat. Levantine girls, by contrast, were far more loose and liberal; and much better looking. They may have been less wealthy, or less expensively dressed; but they were natural stunners.

    [MORE]

    As for Gulf Arab males; they are neither elegantly dressed nor dignified in their behavior or mannerism. As you mentioned, they are basically rednecks with a lot of money. They are also extremely coddled and childish in their behavior. All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty etc. Most of them carry on being frivolous well into their late 20s and early 30s. Though they are friendly and gregarious in their own way; as you correctly outlined. I once attended a summer camp in Switzerland when I was a teenager. Most people there were other international elites from all over; Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Funniest guy was an obese Saudi Arabian with royal pedigree; though not from the powerful branch of the family. He had the whole place rolling on the floor with laughter. Unfortunately, he had to depart early after collapsing from exhaustion during a hiking activity.

    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?

    Egypt is sort of a world unto itself. It doesn’t really belong to any of the subdivisions in the Arab world. This is due to its large population, which closely approximates or exceeds all other subdivisions. But in terms of “closeness”, Egypt would almost certainly cluster with the Levant due to shared history; going all the way back to the Ancient Near East – even before the Arab conquests unified the region under a single ethnicity. Linguistically, Egypt has a noticeably different dialect than the Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon; though they are not mutually unintelligible as is the case with the Maghreb. In that sense, Egypt is more Middle Eastern than it is North African. Many elite Egyptians also have recent Levantine ancestry due to migration in the 20th century. Omar Sharif was one prominent example.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya


    they were natural stunners.
     
    Millennia of ritual child sacrifice has its earthly benefits.

    Ha ha just kidding. I think the Professor Ronald Hutton case that all this child sacrifice brouhaha is a bunch of milarkey is a good one. Agree the Lebanese are a handsome lot.

    , @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    attended a summer camp in Switzerland teenager. Most people there were other international elites
     
    Yes you have the same experiences like me.

    All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty
     
    But I wrote the same comment as you 3,6 years ago. I feel like you are either plagiarizing my old comments, or we study together in the same class lol.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-49/#comment-2415533

    I thought to add a couple of points about Saudis.

    1. Whereas our (non-Arab nationalities) parents were wasting money to study abroad. A lot of Saudi young people are paid to study by their government. They are not all royalty.

    2. I guess elite culture in Saudi, will be too religious. And their country is a dictatorship, so there are narrow limitations for what they can discuss. Sometimes being the simple redneck, is the most intelligent choice.

    Replies: @Yahya

    , @iffen
    @Yahya

    they are basically rednecks with a lot of money.

    We create enough problems for ourselves.

    We don't need to be dumped on by others.

    Replies: @Yahya

  101. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.
     
    I would go one step further. A lot of Latinx immigrants are already assimilated to Euro-Western culture when they arrive. That's why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural 'costs'. A privilege unavailable to Europe vis-a-vis MENA.

    200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.
     
    There won't be 200 million white Americans by the end of this century, "aspirational self-identification" notwithstanding. It'll be lower than today, which is already just 190 million. And there will be closer to 700-750 million Chinese.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    That’s why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural ‘costs’.

    They don’t even have to mover here. I’mfew

  102. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    A lot of the Latino immigrants will assimilate into Euro-America.
     
    I would go one step further. A lot of Latinx immigrants are already assimilated to Euro-Western culture when they arrive. That's why the US can demographically stripmine their neighboring regions without attendant cultural 'costs'. A privilege unavailable to Europe vis-a-vis MENA.

    200 million Euro-Americans vs. 500 million Chinese is a workable contrast.
     
    There won't be 200 million white Americans by the end of this century, "aspirational self-identification" notwithstanding. It'll be lower than today, which is already just 190 million. And there will be closer to 700-750 million Chinese.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    I would go even one step further than you and say that these Latinos don’t necessarily have to all come over to the US but can stay at home, and even for some Asians too. I bring up the call center industry once again, and this is one of the service industry’s biggest magnets for new jobs. On a daily basis, I communicate with folks that work either in Costa Rica or in the Philippines that provide me information on insurance and investment accounts. Although they have their own brand of English accents when speaking, generally the level of communication is quite good. The difference between the US and Russia is quite stark when it comes to trying to assimilate peoples of other cultures and languages. Russia is still trying to do it the old fashioned way, rattling and using their sabres, whereas the US takes a much softer and unobtrusive approach, using jobs and gibs to do the same. I don’t seee the Russian language really expanding outside of Russia anymore, the same could be said for China too. English is still the dominant language in the world and will be for the foreseeable future.

  103. @Mikhail
    Biden on Russia-Ukraine

    Re: https://dailycaller.com/2022/01/19/administration-officials-forced-clean-up-bidens-ukraine-remarks/

    A roundabout way of acknowledging what I brought up this past April, when there was a brief increased Russian military buildup near the Russian-Ukrainian border. That happened after (not before) the Kiev regime's military buildup near the Donbass rebels:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/04/14/cnn-blatant-disinformation-about-russia-ukraine-activity/

    Excerpt -


    Many of the Donbass residents have Russian citizenship and/or familial links to Russia. The Russian government is well aware of a hypothetical Croatian Operation Storm scenario, which will be problematical for Russia, in terms of taking in a considerable number of Donbass residents and having nationalist anti-Russian elements in a stronger position.

    In response to the increased Ukrainian government military presence near the rebels, Russia’s armed buildup along a portion of Ukraine’s northeastern border and stern statements, have sent a clear message that Moscow will not stand idly by in the event of a Croatian Operation Storm like move. The Ukrainian government could very well lose additional territory in a military confrontation with Russia.
     

    Note that Biden's press conference and mass media follow-up skirted the problem the US government faces if it implements a proposed SWIFT sanction on Russia. That move would severely screw up the global economy.

    Europe will be lacking an otherwise reliable and comparatively cheap fossil fuel option. In addition to exporting other key items, Russia, the number one exporter of grain and advanced nuclear reactors, will not be able to conduct business, thus leading to a boomerang effect.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Europe can of course find other outlets to procure grain and nuclear devices. It’ll be harder for Russia to find new places to dump their grain and build their nuclear reactors. I can foresee the competition writing up new orders already. It’ll just be an increase of sanctions on Russia and further tightening of its abilities to do business in the world, that’s all already been going on since 2014. And China, I suppose, will also gain in its ability to buy more supplies and natural resources for its ever increasing industries at depressed prices. When will Russia’s people and cheerleaders see what’s really going on?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Europe can of course find other outlets to procure grain and nuclear devices. It’ll be harder for Russia to find new places to dump their grain and build their nuclear reactors. I can foresee the competition writing up new orders already. It’ll just be an increase of sanctions on Russia and further tightening of its abilities to do business in the world, that’s all already been going on since 2014. And China, I suppose, will also gain in its ability to buy more supplies and natural resources for its ever increasing industries at depressed prices. When will Russia’s people and cheerleaders see what’s really going on?
     
    Europe isn't synonymous with the rest of the world. The fossil fuel matter will very much bite back at them and some others including Ukraine. Russia has definite other options, but will struggle a bit as well.

    When will the Kiev regime's cheerleaders see what's really going on?
  104. I thought “Partygate” as going to doom BoJo. However, to cover that would he has done something impressive. He accepted science: (1)

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson Drops Vaccine Passport and Mask Requirements from U.K

    The majority of people in the U.K. have been very fortuitous in that their Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, was caught in a scandal of partying with his cabinet while the COVID lockdowns were in place.

    That weight of “party-gate” meant Johnson needed the support of the British people in order to remain in office. In order to get the support of the people, Johnson is now removing all government COVID restrictions upon them.

    The COVID passports, mandated mask requirements – including in schools, and all of the government dictates surrounding COVID have been removed.

    The British people are essentially free to live again.

    The fake Stream Media are already in hysterics about governing based on accurate science.
    ____

    As bad as BoJo has been, Not-The-President Biden is worse. Did the occupied White House actually green light a Russian invasion of Ukraine yesterday? The whole thing was so confusing, it was difficult to tell what he was talking about.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/01/19/british-prime-minister-boris-johnson-drops-vaccine-passport-and-mask-requirements-from-u-k/

    • Replies: @A123
    @A123

    I really would love a minor edit feature...


    to cover that would
     
    Should, of course, be

    to cover that wound
     
    PEACE 😇
    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123

    Biden is over performing!

    Are you going to believe your lying eyes or are you going to believe the stock market ticker?

  105. @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    https://preview.redd.it/ug7sh3mqzfn61.png?auto=webp&s=1493a38a8bfb060e332b4b24b39d55bcffbbefb0

    Replies: @Yahya

    A side-by-side comparison of fertility and IQ for each region is illuminating.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Yahya

    As I wrote above, ethnic Turk demographics are only slightly less dire than their European counterparts and sometimes worse. To think that Turkey is some sort of vibrant Muslim economy acting as a beacon to the Islamic world only exists in the minds of Obama and Yevardian.

  106. @A123
    I thought "Partygate" as going to doom BoJo. However, to cover that would he has done something impressive. He accepted science: (1)

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson Drops Vaccine Passport and Mask Requirements from U.K

    The majority of people in the U.K. have been very fortuitous in that their Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, was caught in a scandal of partying with his cabinet while the COVID lockdowns were in place.

    That weight of “party-gate” meant Johnson needed the support of the British people in order to remain in office. In order to get the support of the people, Johnson is now removing all government COVID restrictions upon them.

    The COVID passports, mandated mask requirements – including in schools, and all of the government dictates surrounding COVID have been removed.

    The British people are essentially free to live again.
     
    The fake Stream Media are already in hysterics about governing based on accurate science.
    ____

    As bad as BoJo has been, Not-The-President Biden is worse. Did the occupied White House actually green light a Russian invasion of Ukraine yesterday? The whole thing was so confusing, it was difficult to tell what he was talking about.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/01/19/british-prime-minister-boris-johnson-drops-vaccine-passport-and-mask-requirements-from-u-k/

    Replies: @A123, @Emil Nikola Richard

    I really would love a minor edit feature…

    to cover that would

    Should, of course, be

    to cover that wound

    PEACE 😇

  107. AK was shilling so hard for Putin system last few years, now he got hefty reward – RF central bank wants to ban all cryptocurrencies, lol 🙂

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/13479717

    • LOL: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @sudden death

    It is just a proposal. But is at least a proposed slightly kindly, or enlightened despot, policy.

    Perhaps you can argue that if wealthy American bourgeoisie want to lose e.g. $50,000 gambling for unregulated cryptocurrency scams, then even the enlightened despot should say "their choice, like going to Las Vegas". You could believe that people living in American culture should have enough multi-generation exposure to these financial scams to be non-naive consumers of them, and even you can go to recover your funds by working in MacDonald's, where workers have high salaries in America.

    In Russia, you could feel that too many people are not informed consumers, are not educated to understand basic difference between real financial products like stocks or bonds and gambling more for options, or trying to surf for profit on temporary scams like cryptocurrency (that you will need to exit eventually before the wave crashes).

    Moreover, there are limited opportunities for people to recover from a loss of their assets. Median annual salary in Russia last year was $8,424 per year. While Russia has second most consumers of Binance.

    I don't think even kindly, or enlightened despot, policy is a correct one though. Usually bans even of such useless products, can have some way to cause more problems than help at the end. Still, an economic situation where adding more tight tolerances for what frauds people can enter, can be justified as at least enlightened despotism.

  108. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    You characteristically omit the third question:

    Should Ukrainians just lay down their guns before a shooting match even starts, to a neighbor that has consistently shown no respect for Ukraine's own nation/state aspirations? Let's wait and see how this whole situation progresses before blurting out our own preferences for this large and "important" country. I'm betting that Russia is about to make one of its biggest blunders in this new century, but let's wait and see.

    Replies: @Aedib

    Don’t worry, the Russians will not step in if the Ukrainians make no a first movement against the Donbass. The Kiev regime is still fantasizing about an “operation Storm” in the Donbass. It will not happen. What the Ukrainian regime needs is to fulfill what it signed in Minsk.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Aedib

    "Operation Storm"? Here in the West it's mostly all about Putler's latest provocative moves to reignite "Operation DumbAss"...

    Replies: @A123, @Aedib

  109. @Aedib
    @Mr. Hack

    Don’t worry, the Russians will not step in if the Ukrainians make no a first movement against the Donbass. The Kiev regime is still fantasizing about an “operation Storm” in the Donbass. It will not happen. What the Ukrainian regime needs is to fulfill what it signed in Minsk.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    “Operation Storm”? Here in the West it’s mostly all about Putler’s latest provocative moves to reignite “Operation DumbAss”…

    • Replies: @A123
    @Mr. Hack

    After Not-The-President Biden's performance yesterday.... Anything is possible.. (1)


    Biden added if Russia invades Ukraine, it will be “the most consequential thing that has happened in the world, in terms of war and peace, since WW2.”

    (Unless he really did mean they can invade parts of it, and the West just argues for a few weeks then moves on, which some in Ukraine are apparently interpreting Biden to have meant, despite White House press office denials.)

    Might that warrant a financial press headline over talk of a Fed need to “recalibrate”? Bloomberg was *still* running with “CHOPPY: Stocks Drop; Selloff Puts Nasdaq into Correction” at time of writing.

    Crucially, ominous threats without equally-ominous deterrence, and flubs and/or potential nudge-nudge-wink-winks, must be seen from the eyes of Putin when coming from an administration that: started super-tough on China, but shifted to trying to rebuild bridges when things got heated; pressurizes allies like Saudi Arabia while looking the other way on Iran, even as the UAE is attacked by Houthi drones; withdrew from Afghanistan in a humiliating manner; and is ignoring North Korea, which today stated it will restart nuclear and ICBM tests to develop the power “to fight the US”. As seasoned China-watcher Bill Bishop just tweeted: ‘Is there a “Minsky Moment” concept for geopolitics? Feels like much of DC in deep denial.’
     
    Based on his repeated efforts to appease the Ayatollah's bloodthirstiness, one has to imagine the greenlight to invade Ukraine is real. The real question becomes, "Will he be removed from office after forces are engaged? And, what is Kamala's policy?" The whole thing could flip 180° with a change of puppetmasters leaders.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/all-presidents-meh
    , @Aedib
    @Mr. Hack

    Putler? AFAIK, the Kiev regime and Western Ukrainians shows a much bigger affinity toward Hitler than the Russians.
    Remember… “Promise them all, we will hang them later”.

  110. @AP
    @Mikhail

    Turks are about 20% Turkic but speak a Turkic language; Serbs are about 25% Slavic but speak a Slavic language. Thus, Turks are analogous to Serbs.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mikhail, @Yahya

    AP wrote:

    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

    Mikhail responded:

    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what’s your basis?

    A quick look at phenotypes would answer that question.

    Ukrainian national football team:

    Bulgarian national football team:

    Serbian national football team:

    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs). The Slavicization of the Balkans was predominantly a process of natives adopting the language and acculturating into a Slavic identity; rather than genetic turnover. Much like the Arabization of the Middle East & North Africa; or the Anglicisation of Great Britain; or the Turkification of Anatolia; shifts in identity do not necessarily entail shifts in genetics.

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Yahya

    I can see in the Ukrainian national football team some noticeable mongrelized faces a la Klitchko brothers. That’s logical because of the exchange of population produced during the Khanates era and because of the Pontic avenue was the main route of invasion for the central Asia hordes (Huns, Avars, Cumans, etc). While is true that Ukrainians have more Slavic blood than Yugoslavs, they also have a non-negligible percentage of Anatolian and Turkic blood.

    , @Mikhail
    @Yahya

    There're many Serbs and Bulgarians who look Slav. There's also the presence of what you highlight.

  111. @Mr. Hack
    @Aedib

    "Operation Storm"? Here in the West it's mostly all about Putler's latest provocative moves to reignite "Operation DumbAss"...

    Replies: @A123, @Aedib

    After Not-The-President Biden’s performance yesterday…. Anything is possible.. (1)

    Biden added if Russia invades Ukraine, it will be “the most consequential thing that has happened in the world, in terms of war and peace, since WW2.”

    (Unless he really did mean they can invade parts of it, and the West just argues for a few weeks then moves on, which some in Ukraine are apparently interpreting Biden to have meant, despite White House press office denials.)

    Might that warrant a financial press headline over talk of a Fed need to “recalibrate”? Bloomberg was *still* running with “CHOPPY: Stocks Drop; Selloff Puts Nasdaq into Correction” at time of writing.

    Crucially, ominous threats without equally-ominous deterrence, and flubs and/or potential nudge-nudge-wink-winks, must be seen from the eyes of Putin when coming from an administration that: started super-tough on China, but shifted to trying to rebuild bridges when things got heated; pressurizes allies like Saudi Arabia while looking the other way on Iran, even as the UAE is attacked by Houthi drones; withdrew from Afghanistan in a humiliating manner; and is ignoring North Korea, which today stated it will restart nuclear and ICBM tests to develop the power “to fight the US”. As seasoned China-watcher Bill Bishop just tweeted: ‘Is there a “Minsky Moment” concept for geopolitics? Feels like much of DC in deep denial.’

    Based on his repeated efforts to appease the Ayatollah’s bloodthirstiness, one has to imagine the greenlight to invade Ukraine is real. The real question becomes, “Will he be removed from office after forces are engaged? And, what is Kamala’s policy?” The whole thing could flip 180° with a change of puppetmasters leaders.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/all-presidents-meh

  112. As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs).

    That’s basically right, although you can’t really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team. If you google “turkish soccer team” you’ll see there’s usually a couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up, which is the only significant difference.

    I don’t know how racially “slavic” the balkans are, but I’m not a huge slav fan, so I’d personally be quite happy if it was 0% slav. 25% could well be a good call. I can’t bring myself to sift through the dna haplobabble – which is something only a spergy race nerd could ever forge a sense of identity out of anyway.

    • Agree: sher singh
    • Replies: @Yahya
    @silviosilver


    although you can’t really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team.

     

    I posted a link in my initial comment, though it malfunctioned so I deleted it and didn't manage to replace it before the edit time ran out.

    Here's the Turkish team:

    https://64.media.tumblr.com/7d24ccc3949024947eb37f527dd8afac/b0b7de0d7bee84b3-4b/s1280x1920/b57f6fd6a2de1478dd1138933d6c23e753bb87b5.jpg


    couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up
     
    There's also one Scandinavian/North Slavic looking guy; which i'm guessing is a legacy of the Ottoman harems. Turkish phenotypes remind me of Arab phenotypes in many ways; the working class is visibly different in appearance from the middle-to-upper class; who tend to be "whiter" for lack of a better term. I'm guessing in Turkey; the Ionian upper class would mostly be descended from Greeks who acculturated into a Turkish identity along with the rest of Anatolia. Genetic studies bare that out; Western Anatolian/Ionian Turks tend to cluster more with Greeks (0.001 Fst); while Eastern Anatolian Turks cluster more with Armenians (0.001 Fst). This is obvious when observing phenotypes. The middle/upper class denizens of Istanbul don't look too different from the denizens of Athens:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wl7tnc_r3U&ab_channel=MagazinHaberleritv100

    Whereas Northeastern Anatolian Turks look more like Armenians:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyWwFHO3PNA&ab_channel=BloombergHT

    Central Anatolian Turks have their own distinctive look. You'll also find more slanted eyes there; as the Turkics likely found the plains of Central Anatolia more familiar and steppe-like than other regions in Anatolia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8zh_mErF0&ab_channel=Huru%C5%9Fan

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history.

    E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance. Those ancient peoples' descendants are likely still not far from their homelands today.

    -

    By the way, our Ukrainian friends today include a wide mix of appearances, not only the Northern European appearance. A lot of them could be successfully pretending to be Romanians, Bessarabian Jews, Hungarians, etc.

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoBw-ntJGrI

    Replies: @Mikhail, @silviosilver, @AP

  113. @Mr. Hack
    @Aedib

    "Operation Storm"? Here in the West it's mostly all about Putler's latest provocative moves to reignite "Operation DumbAss"...

    Replies: @A123, @Aedib

    Putler? AFAIK, the Kiev regime and Western Ukrainians shows a much bigger affinity toward Hitler than the Russians.
    Remember… “Promise them all, we will hang them later”.

  114. @Yahya
    @AP

    AP wrote:


    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

     

    Mikhail responded:

    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what’s your basis?
     
    A quick look at phenotypes would answer that question.

    Ukrainian national football team:


    https://www.kyivpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23/p1aei8sujup2kne1daj1g8v1bqj4/original.jpg


    Bulgarian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/e05279c95e041bc36b69afec217b96a5/tumblr_oep82uBrZ81tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    Serbian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/135b77c3e953554e2690e6facc7da8db/tumblr_paqmdaGu5E1tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs). The Slavicization of the Balkans was predominantly a process of natives adopting the language and acculturating into a Slavic identity; rather than genetic turnover. Much like the Arabization of the Middle East & North Africa; or the Anglicisation of Great Britain; or the Turkification of Anatolia; shifts in identity do not necessarily entail shifts in genetics.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Mikhail

    I can see in the Ukrainian national football team some noticeable mongrelized faces a la Klitchko brothers. That’s logical because of the exchange of population produced during the Khanates era and because of the Pontic avenue was the main route of invasion for the central Asia hordes (Huns, Avars, Cumans, etc). While is true that Ukrainians have more Slavic blood than Yugoslavs, they also have a non-negligible percentage of Anatolian and Turkic blood.

  115. @silviosilver

    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs).
     
    That's basically right, although you can't really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team. If you google "turkish soccer team" you'll see there's usually a couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up, which is the only significant difference.

    I don't know how racially "slavic" the balkans are, but I'm not a huge slav fan, so I'd personally be quite happy if it was 0% slav. 25% could well be a good call. I can't bring myself to sift through the dna haplobabble - which is something only a spergy race nerd could ever forge a sense of identity out of anyway.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Dmitry

    although you can’t really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team.

    I posted a link in my initial comment, though it malfunctioned so I deleted it and didn’t manage to replace it before the edit time ran out.

    Here’s the Turkish team:

    couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up

    There’s also one Scandinavian/North Slavic looking guy; which i’m guessing is a legacy of the Ottoman harems. Turkish phenotypes remind me of Arab phenotypes in many ways; the working class is visibly different in appearance from the middle-to-upper class; who tend to be “whiter” for lack of a better term. I’m guessing in Turkey; the Ionian upper class would mostly be descended from Greeks who acculturated into a Turkish identity along with the rest of Anatolia. Genetic studies bare that out; Western Anatolian/Ionian Turks tend to cluster more with Greeks (0.001 Fst); while Eastern Anatolian Turks cluster more with Armenians (0.001 Fst). This is obvious when observing phenotypes. The middle/upper class denizens of Istanbul don’t look too different from the denizens of Athens:

    Whereas Northeastern Anatolian Turks look more like Armenians:

    Central Anatolian Turks have their own distinctive look. You’ll also find more slanted eyes there; as the Turkics likely found the plains of Central Anatolia more familiar and steppe-like than other regions in Anatolia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8zh_mErF0&ab_channel=Huru%C5%9Fan

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Yahya

    When I was in Istanbul about 15 years ago, I remember thinking about a lot of the people I saw, are these guys actually Turks? I didn't really think in terms of "racial types" back then, but they seemed to vary so much more than the Turks that I'd seen in the balkans. I suppose some of them would have been, but what I didn't realize at the time is how much international immigration there had been to Istanbul, which was perhaps the cause of that variation.

    Anyway, I'm sure the question on everybody's lips is: how many of them can pass as Spaniards? :)

    (Just kidding, relax.)

    Replies: @A123

  116. @Mr. Hack
    @songbird


    I’ve personally always conceived of Claudius as being intelligent, if perhaps, foolish in some ways, and in the first episode, I don’t think they conveyed that well.
     
    Ah, you've touched on an important sub-plot of the whole series! Actually, he grows in intelligence and actually in wisdom from chapter to chapter. It's quite interesting to watch how he often hides behind his supposed feeble mind only to outwit all of his detractors. You'll see him mature as an accomplished historian of family affairs, as indeed most of the drama surrounds his role as this family historian. Keep watching, I don't think that you'll be disappointed!

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    According to Sutonius there was absolutely nothing remarkable about Claudius besides his blood relation to Augustus. Graves took a liking to him for literary purposes.

    I enjoyed the books and the tv shows though!

    Augustus’ wife is one of the great characters in literature and in what passes for the history books. In real life she was probably nearly as dull as the old lady who lived next door who hated you for walking on her grass.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn't some weird smear against him.

    My impressions of the TV show were probably negatively impacted by having seen Ben Hur in my formative years. Don't believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.

    As far as Greek stuff goes, I think I did enjoy Gates of Fire, though it probably is a kind of trashy novel, like a modern NYT pulp. Foremost, to anyone interested in that era, I would probably recommend Xenophon and The Aeneid.

    It's kind of surprising to me how there don't seem to be a lot of good movies set in that era. I feel like the Chinese would have put a lot more effort into it.

    Replies: @German_reader

  117. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.
     
    Gulf Arab young females tend to be elegantly dressed and dignified in their manner; as typified by Princess Ameera Al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK31fQP_oGE&ab_channel=WorldGovernmentSummit

    This is especially true of Gulf female elites studying in the US. The contrast between them and the native American population is stark. They are also much more conservative in their behavior and manner of dress; due to upbringing and strict parental social control. My sister and a few other Gulf Arab girls formed a social clique when they were studying in the US. It might have been the wealthiest social group in the entire US student population. Some of them would invite my sister to their penthouses in Cannes and London for summer vacation as a matter of course. My family is fairly well-off; but some of these Kuwaiti and Qatari families made us look like beggars.

    Though I did feel sorry for a few of them who complained frequently of the stifling social restrictions which accompanies being a Gulf Arab woman. None of them were allowed to travel further than their university vicinity without their parents' presence. Obviously they also weren't allowed to drink or party; though some tried to a few times. Except for one or two, they also weren't what one would call "naturally good-looking"; though their elegant dress did improve their appearance somewhat. Levantine girls, by contrast, were far more loose and liberal; and much better looking. They may have been less wealthy, or less expensively dressed; but they were natural stunners.

    As for Gulf Arab males; they are neither elegantly dressed nor dignified in their behavior or mannerism. As you mentioned, they are basically rednecks with a lot of money. They are also extremely coddled and childish in their behavior. All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty etc. Most of them carry on being frivolous well into their late 20s and early 30s. Though they are friendly and gregarious in their own way; as you correctly outlined. I once attended a summer camp in Switzerland when I was a teenager. Most people there were other international elites from all over; Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Funniest guy was an obese Saudi Arabian with royal pedigree; though not from the powerful branch of the family. He had the whole place rolling on the floor with laughter. Unfortunately, he had to depart early after collapsing from exhaustion during a hiking activity.


    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?
     
    Egypt is sort of a world unto itself. It doesn't really belong to any of the subdivisions in the Arab world. This is due to its large population, which closely approximates or exceeds all other subdivisions. But in terms of "closeness", Egypt would almost certainly cluster with the Levant due to shared history; going all the way back to the Ancient Near East - even before the Arab conquests unified the region under a single ethnicity. Linguistically, Egypt has a noticeably different dialect than the Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon; though they are not mutually unintelligible as is the case with the Maghreb. In that sense, Egypt is more Middle Eastern than it is North African. Many elite Egyptians also have recent Levantine ancestry due to migration in the 20th century. Omar Sharif was one prominent example.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry, @iffen

    they were natural stunners.

    Millennia of ritual child sacrifice has its earthly benefits.

    Ha ha just kidding. I think the Professor Ronald Hutton case that all this child sacrifice brouhaha is a bunch of milarkey is a good one. Agree the Lebanese are a handsome lot.

    • LOL: songbird
  118. @A123
    I thought "Partygate" as going to doom BoJo. However, to cover that would he has done something impressive. He accepted science: (1)

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson Drops Vaccine Passport and Mask Requirements from U.K

    The majority of people in the U.K. have been very fortuitous in that their Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, was caught in a scandal of partying with his cabinet while the COVID lockdowns were in place.

    That weight of “party-gate” meant Johnson needed the support of the British people in order to remain in office. In order to get the support of the people, Johnson is now removing all government COVID restrictions upon them.

    The COVID passports, mandated mask requirements – including in schools, and all of the government dictates surrounding COVID have been removed.

    The British people are essentially free to live again.
     
    The fake Stream Media are already in hysterics about governing based on accurate science.
    ____

    As bad as BoJo has been, Not-The-President Biden is worse. Did the occupied White House actually green light a Russian invasion of Ukraine yesterday? The whole thing was so confusing, it was difficult to tell what he was talking about.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/01/19/british-prime-minister-boris-johnson-drops-vaccine-passport-and-mask-requirements-from-u-k/

    Replies: @A123, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Biden is over performing!

    Are you going to believe your lying eyes or are you going to believe the stock market ticker?

    • LOL: A123
  119. @Yahya
    @silviosilver


    although you can’t really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team.

     

    I posted a link in my initial comment, though it malfunctioned so I deleted it and didn't manage to replace it before the edit time ran out.

    Here's the Turkish team:

    https://64.media.tumblr.com/7d24ccc3949024947eb37f527dd8afac/b0b7de0d7bee84b3-4b/s1280x1920/b57f6fd6a2de1478dd1138933d6c23e753bb87b5.jpg


    couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up
     
    There's also one Scandinavian/North Slavic looking guy; which i'm guessing is a legacy of the Ottoman harems. Turkish phenotypes remind me of Arab phenotypes in many ways; the working class is visibly different in appearance from the middle-to-upper class; who tend to be "whiter" for lack of a better term. I'm guessing in Turkey; the Ionian upper class would mostly be descended from Greeks who acculturated into a Turkish identity along with the rest of Anatolia. Genetic studies bare that out; Western Anatolian/Ionian Turks tend to cluster more with Greeks (0.001 Fst); while Eastern Anatolian Turks cluster more with Armenians (0.001 Fst). This is obvious when observing phenotypes. The middle/upper class denizens of Istanbul don't look too different from the denizens of Athens:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wl7tnc_r3U&ab_channel=MagazinHaberleritv100

    Whereas Northeastern Anatolian Turks look more like Armenians:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyWwFHO3PNA&ab_channel=BloombergHT

    Central Anatolian Turks have their own distinctive look. You'll also find more slanted eyes there; as the Turkics likely found the plains of Central Anatolia more familiar and steppe-like than other regions in Anatolia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8zh_mErF0&ab_channel=Huru%C5%9Fan

    Replies: @silviosilver

    When I was in Istanbul about 15 years ago, I remember thinking about a lot of the people I saw, are these guys actually Turks? I didn’t really think in terms of “racial types” back then, but they seemed to vary so much more than the Turks that I’d seen in the balkans. I suppose some of them would have been, but what I didn’t realize at the time is how much international immigration there had been to Istanbul, which was perhaps the cause of that variation.

    Anyway, I’m sure the question on everybody’s lips is: how many of them can pass as Spaniards? 🙂

    (Just kidding, relax.)

    • LOL: Yahya
    • Replies: @A123
    @silviosilver

    My question looking at the Soccer team pictures:

    Why do some teams have everyone standing,which leads to this awkward looking squat for the front row (e.g. Turkey, Ukraine). A kneeling front row looks much better.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @silviosilver

  120. @silviosilver
    @Yahya

    When I was in Istanbul about 15 years ago, I remember thinking about a lot of the people I saw, are these guys actually Turks? I didn't really think in terms of "racial types" back then, but they seemed to vary so much more than the Turks that I'd seen in the balkans. I suppose some of them would have been, but what I didn't realize at the time is how much international immigration there had been to Istanbul, which was perhaps the cause of that variation.

    Anyway, I'm sure the question on everybody's lips is: how many of them can pass as Spaniards? :)

    (Just kidding, relax.)

    Replies: @A123

    My question looking at the Soccer team pictures:

    Why do some teams have everyone standing,which leads to this awkward looking squat for the front row (e.g. Turkey, Ukraine). A kneeling front row looks much better.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @A123


    A kneeling front row looks much better.
     
    I know right. I'm pretty sure it's reserved only for elite countries - kinda like medieval sumptuary laws restricted certain garments to the nobility.

    Replies: @songbird

  121. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Mr. Hack

    According to Sutonius there was absolutely nothing remarkable about Claudius besides his blood relation to Augustus. Graves took a liking to him for literary purposes.

    I enjoyed the books and the tv shows though!

    Augustus' wife is one of the great characters in literature and in what passes for the history books. In real life she was probably nearly as dull as the old lady who lived next door who hated you for walking on her grass.

    Replies: @songbird

    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn’t some weird smear against him.

    My impressions of the TV show were probably negatively impacted by having seen Ben Hur in my formative years. Don’t believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.

    As far as Greek stuff goes, I think I did enjoy Gates of Fire, though it probably is a kind of trashy novel, like a modern NYT pulp. Foremost, to anyone interested in that era, I would probably recommend Xenophon and The Aeneid.

    It’s kind of surprising to me how there don’t seem to be a lot of good movies set in that era. I feel like the Chinese would have put a lot more effort into it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn’t some weird smear against him.
     
    Fragments of a speech have survived he held about the acceptance of Gauls into the senate, and there's a lot of antiquarian pedantry in it, not always relevant to the argument he was trying to make (Tacitus' version in the Annals reads much better than Claudius' actual speech). So there probably isn't reason to doubt Claudius' antiquarian interests.

    Don’t believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.
     
    I liked Arthur Koestler's The gladiators, but at its core it's a reflection about the paradoxes of revolutions (almost like a companion piece to Darkness at noon, Koestler's novel about an Old Bolshevik purged in the 1930s), so if one doesn't care for that political subtext there might not be much of interest in it.

    Replies: @songbird

  122. @A123
    @silviosilver

    My question looking at the Soccer team pictures:

    Why do some teams have everyone standing,which leads to this awkward looking squat for the front row (e.g. Turkey, Ukraine). A kneeling front row looks much better.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @silviosilver

    A kneeling front row looks much better.

    I know right. I’m pretty sure it’s reserved only for elite countries – kinda like medieval sumptuary laws restricted certain garments to the nobility.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @silviosilver

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient?

    Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.) Don't know how true it is elsewhere, but I am often reminded of it, when I heard about certain things in Afghanistan. And then there are various things that TE Lawrence wrote, including about Turks, though he may have been a biased source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Emil Nikola Richard, @silviosilver

  123. @silviosilver
    @A123


    A kneeling front row looks much better.
     
    I know right. I'm pretty sure it's reserved only for elite countries - kinda like medieval sumptuary laws restricted certain garments to the nobility.

    Replies: @songbird

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient?

    Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.) Don’t know how true it is elsewhere, but I am often reminded of it, when I heard about certain things in Afghanistan. And then there are various things that TE Lawrence wrote, including about Turks, though he may have been a biased source.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @songbird


    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

     

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn't be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/06/30/a9b45869-2cbe-4330-b29f-dcee77c222f2/thumbnail/1200x630/5bea353120fe757c93f31bd817a3a810/2019-06-30t175448z-965926761-rc19f52d75e0-rtrmadp-3-gay-pride-new-york.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/49318672_303.jpg


    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don't be a retard.


    TE Lawrence wrote
     
    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the "sexually perverted" Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Coconuts, @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    The gayness of Arabs is a plot point in Papillon.

    https://www.amazon.com/Papillon-P-S-Henri-Charriere/dp/0061120669

    In excess of 90% of slanderous ethnic characteristics are invented by their rivals.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @silviosilver
    @songbird

    I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm not at all sure just what it is.

    Since you brought it up, it may be of relevance to mention that Serbia has a lesbian prime minister. (Could pass as an effeminate MTF trans.)

    Replies: @songbird

  124. @songbird
    @silviosilver

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient?

    Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.) Don't know how true it is elsewhere, but I am often reminded of it, when I heard about certain things in Afghanistan. And then there are various things that TE Lawrence wrote, including about Turks, though he may have been a biased source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Emil Nikola Richard, @silviosilver

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn’t be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don’t be a retard.

    TE Lawrence wrote

    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the “sexually perverted” Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yahya


    stupid sh*t like this.
     
    Are all Arabs as scatological? I genuinely wonder. I would have guessed they would use cleaner language, and am curious if you have been negatively influenced by Hollywood cultural norms.(I will use the MORE tag, For NSFW language) It does not clean up the word "shit", or help your case, to write it with an asshole.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?
     
    Well, I was joking a bit, and trying to solicit people's impressions. And WASPs in the CIA was a temporal reference. Don't know if you have seen their recruiting ads lately, but that is not who runs the place now.

    In historical terms, I think there is a lot of food for thought, such as the fact that many gays, relocated outside of the West, seemingly to take advantage of their lack of moral strictures involving the abuse of boys.

    Though there is evidence in the other direction too. Edwardian England seems to have been fairly gay, and I can think of a few aristocrats across Europe who were famously gay.

    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Indian a few years ago?
     
    Yes, that is fair, to a certain extent, but he wasn't elected by the people. And they want everyone to think that he was. The politicians are quite corrupt and chose him - it is part of the problem of democracy. In a similar way gays and foreigners are promoted in other parts of Europe.

    But if you do want to rib on the Old Country, I will say this: I've heard of more cases of Arabs pretending to be Irish, than the reverse. When that Egypt part was written by some monk, probably there wasn't many who had been over there.

    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?
     
    That's why I called him "biased", it was part of the joke. Though, I certainly would not rate Siad as a good character witness. Nor will I be reading his Arab version of ___(who is that guy that is dumber than Ta-Nehisi Coates?) Oh, well, I don't care.
    , @A123
    @Yahya

    The ultimate expression of gayness is the Bacha Bāzī. Muslim, underage, boy dancer, prostitutes of Afghanistan. There is no way this can be blamed on "The West". This Islamic tradition predates the USSR's intevention, probably by centuries. It is core Muslim belief unsullied by outside influences.

     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEEm5AjDbCo
     

    Yes. Muslim gayness has invaded Christendom. The rainbow flag of SJW Islamic sexual deviance flies too many places in Christian lands.

    Well publicized displays are usually by limited numbers of extreme "flamers". This represents a severe problem with the Fake Stream Media [FSM]. There is sharp divergence between SJW Muslim Elites (e.g. George IslamoSoros) in the White House & FSM versus Main Street Christian America.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123

    , @Coconuts
    @Yahya

    I suppose songbird's source was referring to the pre-gay liberation era in the West.

    Part of the motivation behind gay liberation ideology was the hard attitude to sodomy, pederasty and other kinds of male homosexual behaviour that was common in Western European countries. There was a widespread belief that the Ottoman Empire and North Africa was more relaxed, especially around man/boy activity, this was a kind of meme in the early part of the last century.

    I think what you can see in the current LGBT/Queer movement is an extreme counter-reaction to past European attitudes, in its more 'sophisticated' or developed forms, repression of (homo)sexuality is used as an explanation for Fascism, Imperialism, Stalinism all kinds of genocide and so on. This is probably why the elites in Western society have such intense belief in the moral value of promoting it.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Scott Alexander wrote a very long blog post which is close to his top ten all time if not in it the thesis of which was that the gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas. Isomorphic to John Lennon's thing that the Beatles are bigger than Jesus.

    I don't think he has ever been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. March 1 this year and they did not have Mardi Gras last year so it is going to be one hell of a blow job. March 1 is late for any kind of chilly weather in New Orleans.**

    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there and it is impossible to avoid it if you are in or even near the city. If anyplace east of this hypothetical hajnal line has anything remotely to compare to these events I would be surprised.

    **Not a mardi-gras-ologist so I can't give you the gay percentage but it's got to be over a third. Apartments in the French Quarter are prime gay real estate and on public transportation it is not uncommon to hear gay guys bitching about the elite snob assholes who live in the Quarter. They sound like high school girls bitching about the cheerleaders who think they are hot stuff.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Yahya

  125. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn't some weird smear against him.

    My impressions of the TV show were probably negatively impacted by having seen Ben Hur in my formative years. Don't believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.

    As far as Greek stuff goes, I think I did enjoy Gates of Fire, though it probably is a kind of trashy novel, like a modern NYT pulp. Foremost, to anyone interested in that era, I would probably recommend Xenophon and The Aeneid.

    It's kind of surprising to me how there don't seem to be a lot of good movies set in that era. I feel like the Chinese would have put a lot more effort into it.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn’t some weird smear against him.

    Fragments of a speech have survived he held about the acceptance of Gauls into the senate, and there’s a lot of antiquarian pedantry in it, not always relevant to the argument he was trying to make (Tacitus’ version in the Annals reads much better than Claudius’ actual speech). So there probably isn’t reason to doubt Claudius’ antiquarian interests.

    Don’t believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.

    I liked Arthur Koestler’s The gladiators, but at its core it’s a reflection about the paradoxes of revolutions (almost like a companion piece to Darkness at noon, Koestler’s novel about an Old Bolshevik purged in the 1930s), so if one doesn’t care for that political subtext there might not be much of interest in it.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader


    I liked Arthur Koestler’s The gladiators, but at its core it’s a reflection about the paradoxes of revolutions (almost like a companion piece to Darkness at noon, Koestler’s novel about an Old Bolshevik purged in the 1930s), so if one doesn’t care for that political subtext there might not be much of interest in it.
     
    Guess he was probably influenced to choose his subject matter by the Spartacus League. Sounds kind of heavy.

    Sometimes, I've wondered if politics can influence the way you view an author, just in a kind of subconscious way. I mean, not knowing the platform beforehand, not knowing party affiliation, or an obvious giveaway.

    IMO, there's got to be something that translates through. In the same way that machine learning can guess if something is written by a man or a woman.

  126. @songbird
    @silviosilver

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient?

    Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.) Don't know how true it is elsewhere, but I am often reminded of it, when I heard about certain things in Afghanistan. And then there are various things that TE Lawrence wrote, including about Turks, though he may have been a biased source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Emil Nikola Richard, @silviosilver

    The gayness of Arabs is a plot point in Papillon.

    In excess of 90% of slanderous ethnic characteristics are invented by their rivals.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Thanks, that's funny. I read it a long time ago, but didn't remember that part. Never saw the movie.

  127. @Yahya
    @songbird


    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

     

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn't be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/06/30/a9b45869-2cbe-4330-b29f-dcee77c222f2/thumbnail/1200x630/5bea353120fe757c93f31bd817a3a810/2019-06-30t175448z-965926761-rc19f52d75e0-rtrmadp-3-gay-pride-new-york.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/49318672_303.jpg


    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don't be a retard.


    TE Lawrence wrote
     
    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the "sexually perverted" Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Coconuts, @Emil Nikola Richard

    stupid sh*t like this.

    Are all Arabs as scatological? I genuinely wonder. I would have guessed they would use cleaner language, and am curious if you have been negatively influenced by Hollywood cultural norms.(I will use the MORE tag, For NSFW language)

    [MORE]
    It does not clean up the word “shit”, or help your case, to write it with an asshole.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    Well, I was joking a bit, and trying to solicit people’s impressions. And WASPs in the CIA was a temporal reference. Don’t know if you have seen their recruiting ads lately, but that is not who runs the place now.

    In historical terms, I think there is a lot of food for thought, such as the fact that many gays, relocated outside of the West, seemingly to take advantage of their lack of moral strictures involving the abuse of boys.

    Though there is evidence in the other direction too. Edwardian England seems to have been fairly gay, and I can think of a few aristocrats across Europe who were famously gay.

    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Indian a few years ago?

    Yes, that is fair, to a certain extent, but he wasn’t elected by the people. And they want everyone to think that he was. The politicians are quite corrupt and chose him – it is part of the problem of democracy. In a similar way gays and foreigners are promoted in other parts of Europe.

    But if you do want to rib on the Old Country, I will say this: I’ve heard of more cases of Arabs pretending to be Irish, than the reverse. When that Egypt part was written by some monk, probably there wasn’t many who had been over there.

    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    That’s why I called him “biased”, it was part of the joke. Though, I certainly would not rate Siad as a good character witness. Nor will I be reading his Arab version of ___(who is that guy that is dumber than Ta-Nehisi Coates?) Oh, well, I don’t care.

  128. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird

    The gayness of Arabs is a plot point in Papillon.

    https://www.amazon.com/Papillon-P-S-Henri-Charriere/dp/0061120669

    In excess of 90% of slanderous ethnic characteristics are invented by their rivals.

    Replies: @songbird

    Thanks, that’s funny. I read it a long time ago, but didn’t remember that part. Never saw the movie.

  129. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Europe can of course find other outlets to procure grain and nuclear devices. It'll be harder for Russia to find new places to dump their grain and build their nuclear reactors. I can foresee the competition writing up new orders already. It'll just be an increase of sanctions on Russia and further tightening of its abilities to do business in the world, that's all already been going on since 2014. And China, I suppose, will also gain in its ability to buy more supplies and natural resources for its ever increasing industries at depressed prices. When will Russia's people and cheerleaders see what's really going on?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Europe can of course find other outlets to procure grain and nuclear devices. It’ll be harder for Russia to find new places to dump their grain and build their nuclear reactors. I can foresee the competition writing up new orders already. It’ll just be an increase of sanctions on Russia and further tightening of its abilities to do business in the world, that’s all already been going on since 2014. And China, I suppose, will also gain in its ability to buy more supplies and natural resources for its ever increasing industries at depressed prices. When will Russia’s people and cheerleaders see what’s really going on?

    Europe isn’t synonymous with the rest of the world. The fossil fuel matter will very much bite back at them and some others including Ukraine. Russia has definite other options, but will struggle a bit as well.

    When will the Kiev regime’s cheerleaders see what’s really going on?

  130. @Yahya
    @AP

    AP wrote:


    Turks are about 20% actual Turkic, they are mostly Anatolians. Turks are Turkic, like Serbs and Bulgarians are Slavic.

     

    Mikhail responded:

    In your opinion are Serbs and Bulgarians more Turkic than Slav? If so, what’s your basis?
     
    A quick look at phenotypes would answer that question.

    Ukrainian national football team:


    https://www.kyivpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23/p1aei8sujup2kne1daj1g8v1bqj4/original.jpg


    Bulgarian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/e05279c95e041bc36b69afec217b96a5/tumblr_oep82uBrZ81tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    Serbian national football team:


    https://64.media.tumblr.com/135b77c3e953554e2690e6facc7da8db/tumblr_paqmdaGu5E1tlc6guo1_1280.jpg


    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs). The Slavicization of the Balkans was predominantly a process of natives adopting the language and acculturating into a Slavic identity; rather than genetic turnover. Much like the Arabization of the Middle East & North Africa; or the Anglicisation of Great Britain; or the Turkification of Anatolia; shifts in identity do not necessarily entail shifts in genetics.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Mikhail

    There’re many Serbs and Bulgarians who look Slav. There’s also the presence of what you highlight.

  131. @Yahya
    @songbird


    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

     

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn't be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/06/30/a9b45869-2cbe-4330-b29f-dcee77c222f2/thumbnail/1200x630/5bea353120fe757c93f31bd817a3a810/2019-06-30t175448z-965926761-rc19f52d75e0-rtrmadp-3-gay-pride-new-york.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/49318672_303.jpg


    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don't be a retard.


    TE Lawrence wrote
     
    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the "sexually perverted" Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Coconuts, @Emil Nikola Richard

    The ultimate expression of gayness is the Bacha Bāzī. Muslim, underage, boy dancer, prostitutes of Afghanistan. There is no way this can be blamed on “The West”. This Islamic tradition predates the USSR’s intevention, probably by centuries. It is core Muslim belief unsullied by outside influences.

     

     

    Yes. Muslim gayness has invaded Christendom. The rainbow flag of SJW Islamic sexual deviance flies too many places in Christian lands.

    Well publicized displays are usually by limited numbers of extreme “flamers”. This represents a severe problem with the Fake Stream Media [FSM]. There is sharp divergence between SJW Muslim Elites (e.g. George IslamoSoros) in the White House & FSM versus Main Street Christian America.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @A123
    @A123

    Addendum

    Yes. Barack Hussein is a fantastically homo, Kenyan Muslim. Look at Michelle Obama and one knows exactly who is the "top" in that relationship.

    These two **DO NOT** represent the average American (or Western) Christian. Their deviance is their own.

     
    https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/obama-running-with-colorful-rainbow-flag.jpg
     

    PEACE 😇

  132. Everyone will have a gay on their currency.

    In Japan, it will be Mishima.

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon
  133. @A123
    @Yahya

    The ultimate expression of gayness is the Bacha Bāzī. Muslim, underage, boy dancer, prostitutes of Afghanistan. There is no way this can be blamed on "The West". This Islamic tradition predates the USSR's intevention, probably by centuries. It is core Muslim belief unsullied by outside influences.

     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEEm5AjDbCo
     

    Yes. Muslim gayness has invaded Christendom. The rainbow flag of SJW Islamic sexual deviance flies too many places in Christian lands.

    Well publicized displays are usually by limited numbers of extreme "flamers". This represents a severe problem with the Fake Stream Media [FSM]. There is sharp divergence between SJW Muslim Elites (e.g. George IslamoSoros) in the White House & FSM versus Main Street Christian America.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123

    Addendum

    Yes. Barack Hussein is a fantastically homo, Kenyan Muslim. Look at Michelle Obama and one knows exactly who is the “top” in that relationship.

    These two **DO NOT** represent the average American (or Western) Christian. Their deviance is their own.

     

     

    PEACE 😇

  134. @Beckow
    @A123

    China is almost exclusively an economic (financial) threat. Iran not at all.

    "Russia, Russia,..." screams are paranoid, and in many cases an outright pathology. Intelligent people with a lack of knowledge often behave that way. Experience eventually corrects the delusion.

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia's space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can't back down and they can't sustain the exposed position.

    A classical strategic error not dissimilar to Napoleon brazenly marching into a trap, as did Germans, Swedes, Poles. This will get ugly.

    Replies: @A123, @Mikel

    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.

    Russia’s situation is worse. Not only is it the encircled country but it has put itself in a position where it has to act after all this tough talk and ultimatums. If it doesn’t, it won’t be taken seriously and the encirclement will just carry on. The West has already responded and said that it doesn’t accept Russia’s stated red lines. Now what?

    Not to mention that its only real ally in Europe is Belarus but only due to the weakness of its elderly ruler. He wasn’t so collaborative before his rule was challenged in the streets by a large amount of people. Not the best kind of ally to have.

    It would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe, perhaps even joining the EU and NATO. But that would have meant letting the West dictate its internal policies and join its interventionist adventures abroad, something that Russia can’t be blamed for not being too keen on.

    Whatever the case, that didn’t happen so I think that Russia’s stance of not accepting any further encroachment is objectively right and NATO’s position of ignoring Russia’s concerns is totally irresponsible.

    The whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War, possibly more dangerous than the previous one until some strategic balance is restored, for no ideological reasons at all. It’s all hardly anything more than a big pissing contest. Russia’s neighbors’ Russophobia, Russia’s ham-fisted approach to these neighbors and, above all, the West’s interventionist hubris.

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Mikel

    Russia's demands are not new. What's new is their ability to remove any credible Western deterrence (crushing sanctions) to an invasion. That's a huge improvement in their strategic posture.

    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie. Encouraged by these developements, it's now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states. It's unlikely to succeed, but Russia has managed to break the previous cycle of ever-encroaching NATO members onto its borders.

    Of course, Russia is a weaker country than the US. That's why it has NATO troops on its doorstep whereas Russian or CSTO troops in Mexico or the Caribbean would be unthinkable. But that doesn't change the fact that NATO expansion now looks dead in the water, which is a win for Russia no matter how you slice it.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikel

    , @Dmitry
    @Mikel

    Not saying this to you personally. But I mean in general for this forum, whenever any discussions about Russia here. I feel we needed some kind of college course - "postsoviet logic 101".


    Russia’s situation is worse.
     
    Worse for who?

    Is it undesirable if Poland bans apple exports to Russia in 2014? Polish apples were replaced with Timchenko's new apple industry. For Polish apple producers, the EU ban is a loss of revenue. For Russian price-sensitive (e.g. lower income) consumers, it is a money transfer to Timchenko. Was this bad for Timchenko?

    Answer a, b or c? Who perhaps has more influence in relation external policy in Russia?

    a) Polish apple producer.

    b) Price-sensitive (i.e. lower income) apple purchaser in Russia.

    c) Timchenko

    I'm not saying this was intentional, but the results were not so bad from their point of view.


    has already responded and said that it doesn’t accept Russia’s stated red lines. Now what?

     

    Hopefully (as a normal citizen) there will be nothing but empty threats. But it could be like 2014 tensions again. Perhaps this can be repeated every decade, with some variation of theme.

    Did certain events in relation to Ukraine of the last decade, result in transfer of money and power further away, or to, the people who were influencing those decisions?


    Not the best kind of ally to have.

     

    Surely, this is quite a good kind of "ally". One with "limited optionality".

    Let's say in romantic life, is your girlfriend/boyfriend more or less dependent on you, if they have wider or narrower "dating optionality".


    would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe

     

    Why "for everyone"? For a lot of people, it is not better. Especially including some groups which are the most investing in Europe from Russia. And from NATO, what would their existence be if Russia followed Prokhorov in 2012.

    NATO will be searching for a long time under the sofa for its raison d'être, if Russia was an EU and NATO member.


    whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War
     
    ?
    Why would it be unpredictable? Inductively, you can see similar patterns have existed in 20th and 19th centuries.

    Ok to use smaller country analogy. Do you think Aliev's situation will be stronger or weaker, if Azerbaijan was friends with Armenia? What about Azerbaijan and Russia? Do you think Aliev's position would be stronger or weaker, if he promoted pro-Russian among the population sentiment in Azerbaijan?

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @Beckow
    @Mikel


    ...Russia’s situation is worse.
     
    More accurately, the world's and European situation is worse. We have a zugzwang all around. Maybe we should all go home and pretend that nothing happened or was said - you are right, this is a pissing contest. But going home needs to include the West.

    The idea that you brazenly march deep into Eurasia buying influence and placing weapons everywhere, all the time claiming that "this is a march of freedom, not an imperial adventure" is truly nuts. At least the previous Western imperialism had a certain honesty, today they are like teenage girls repeating mindlessly he likes me, I am pretty... , pretending that the world as it is doesn't exist, living in a narcissistic bubble.

    Moving missiles and forming military alliances with unstable local satraps on borders of large countries has never been ok. Whether UK and Ireland, US and Mexico, Cuba or Quebec, or any other circumstance where a remote and historically aggressive power places its armies on the borders of another power - it cannot be pretended away.

    The incessant and infantile Western rants like "but Ukraine is not a threat to Russia, they are too weak" are so retarded that one wonders about Western ability to even enforce critical thinking. (Right, Einstein, nobody cares about Ukraine, but how about NATO from Ukraine, has that obvious thought even occurred to these morons?)

    Any conflict is resolved by who is stronger locally. In this case, Russia. That's why Washington tries desperately to avoid a conflict and has gone to childish threats to hope that loud screaming will save them. Actually, the only thing that can save them is if Russia for some reason holds back and chooses to lose face and accept the status quo.

  135. @Yahya
    @Yellowface Anon

    A side-by-side comparison of fertility and IQ for each region is illuminating.

    https://preview.redd.it/ug7sh3mqzfn61.png?auto=webp&s=1493a38a8bfb060e332b4b24b39d55bcffbbefb0

    https://preview.redd.it/oadjdc17nw201.png?auto=webp&s=033ab6186ae6674603dfd3daca650f94d81727e3

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    As I wrote above, ethnic Turk demographics are only slightly less dire than their European counterparts and sometimes worse. To think that Turkey is some sort of vibrant Muslim economy acting as a beacon to the Islamic world only exists in the minds of Obama and Yevardian.

  136. Interesting thread by former Trump admin bigwig.

    Basically makes the case of cutting Europe loose and refocus 10X on Asia. Mentions that Asia will be 50%+ of world GDP in 20 years whereas Europe will be ~10%. Says Europe must defend itself.

    The reason this will fail is simple. GDP doesn’t matter for much, but control of key tech and military might is. Without the co-operation of ASML, China would be 10-15 years ahead of where they now are in semiconductors. ASML is a European firm, which is blocking critical EUV litography machines to Chinese chip firms.

    Europe is a major trading power on the global stage. When the US wanted to punish Cambodia for cozying up to China, they had to face the fact that the EU – not US – was Cambodia’s biggest export market together with China. If the EU had not co-operated in removing preferential trade rules for Cambodia, it would have massively degraded America’s economic coercion tools.

    In short, the US needs Europe more than vice versa to keep up economic coercion and blockades, which these rants fail to take account for. I hope someone listens to him and separates EU and US, but unfortunately there are smarter people in the WH than outside it. They know the real score.

    At root is that US hegemony is increasingly costly and untenable. And it relies to a significant extent on co-operation from Europe, much more than most people realise. Even many Europeans.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Thulean Friend


    At root is that US hegemony is increasingly costly and untenable. And it relies to a significant extent on co-operation from Europe, much more than most people realise. Even many Europeans.
     
    You are arrive at an odd, mostly invalid answer, because you are starting from a false premise of "U.S. hegemony". Having the largest military has not guaranteed hegemony for decades.
    ____

    Establishing & maintaining Christian cohesiveness is difficult. Trying to bond Europe, the U.S., and Russia together makes a great deal of sense. However, this is hampered by:

    -A- The Anti-Christian center of Europe, primarily Germany
    -B- Illegitimate rule by Not-The-President Biden

    Every world leader knows that the current occupied White House is "Not Treaty Capable". There are many reasons why the JCPOA farce is going nowhere. A critical roadblock is that nothing imposter Biden concedes to Shia aggression will obtain Senate ratification. Any "deal" is now good for less than three years, and the time shrinks every day negotiations drag on. The clock is running against Iranian terrorism, and they know it.

    PEACE 😇

  137. @Mikel
    @Beckow


    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.
     
    Russia's situation is worse. Not only is it the encircled country but it has put itself in a position where it has to act after all this tough talk and ultimatums. If it doesn't, it won't be taken seriously and the encirclement will just carry on. The West has already responded and said that it doesn't accept Russia's stated red lines. Now what?

    Not to mention that its only real ally in Europe is Belarus but only due to the weakness of its elderly ruler. He wasn't so collaborative before his rule was challenged in the streets by a large amount of people. Not the best kind of ally to have.

    It would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe, perhaps even joining the EU and NATO. But that would have meant letting the West dictate its internal policies and join its interventionist adventures abroad, something that Russia can't be blamed for not being too keen on.

    Whatever the case, that didn't happen so I think that Russia's stance of not accepting any further encroachment is objectively right and NATO's position of ignoring Russia's concerns is totally irresponsible.

    The whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War, possibly more dangerous than the previous one until some strategic balance is restored, for no ideological reasons at all. It's all hardly anything more than a big pissing contest. Russia's neighbors' Russophobia, Russia's ham-fisted approach to these neighbors and, above all, the West's interventionist hubris.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Dmitry, @Beckow

    Russia’s demands are not new. What’s new is their ability to remove any credible Western deterrence (crushing sanctions) to an invasion. That’s a huge improvement in their strategic posture.

    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie. Encouraged by these developements, it’s now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states. It’s unlikely to succeed, but Russia has managed to break the previous cycle of ever-encroaching NATO members onto its borders.

    Of course, Russia is a weaker country than the US. That’s why it has NATO troops on its doorstep whereas Russian or CSTO troops in Mexico or the Caribbean would be unthinkable. But that doesn’t change the fact that NATO expansion now looks dead in the water, which is a win for Russia no matter how you slice it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie.
     
    Well, no, not really, in principle "the West" hasn't ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine, it's still the same kind of indeterminate position that has prevailed since 2008...at some point in the future Ukraine should join, not in the near future, but of course ties are going to become ever closer. And imo this has always been lunacy (and crucially, I have never seen even an attempt to argue what exactly the benefit of Ukraine's NATO membership would be for the "old" members from Western Europe, apparently you're not supposed to ask), which was guaranteed to lead to a conflict with Russia, and also likely to arouse nationalist sentiment in Russia due to the large Russian-speaking minority in Ukraine, legacies of WW2 and issues of national identity. But at this point it's probably like crying over spilt milk. The Europeans have been shown to be completely impotent and irrelevant anyway, so anything that's going to happen will be decided between Russia and the US. imo this should be cause for concern, but apparently the public even in the major EU countries doesn't seem to mind much.

    it’s now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states.
     
    It seems to be an open question how serious those demands are, there's also the argument it should be seen as an opening move for negotiations (if it isn't it would be more like a clumsy pretext for war, since those demands could never be accepted by Western governments. Biden would be butchered for it even by his own party).

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    , @Mikel
    @Thulean Friend


    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie.
     
    That's just the opposite of what Biden, Blinken, Stoltenberg and all Western politicians I have heard talk about the Russian demands declare. So, unless you're talking about some undisclosed agreement, I'm not sure where you got that conclusion from.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  138. @Thulean Friend
    Interesting thread by former Trump admin bigwig.

    https://twitter.com/ElbridgeColby/status/1484156214141407232

    Basically makes the case of cutting Europe loose and refocus 10X on Asia. Mentions that Asia will be 50%+ of world GDP in 20 years whereas Europe will be ~10%. Says Europe must defend itself.

    The reason this will fail is simple. GDP doesn't matter for much, but control of key tech and military might is. Without the co-operation of ASML, China would be 10-15 years ahead of where they now are in semiconductors. ASML is a European firm, which is blocking critical EUV litography machines to Chinese chip firms.

    Europe is a major trading power on the global stage. When the US wanted to punish Cambodia for cozying up to China, they had to face the fact that the EU - not US - was Cambodia's biggest export market together with China. If the EU had not co-operated in removing preferential trade rules for Cambodia, it would have massively degraded America's economic coercion tools.

    In short, the US needs Europe more than vice versa to keep up economic coercion and blockades, which these rants fail to take account for. I hope someone listens to him and separates EU and US, but unfortunately there are smarter people in the WH than outside it. They know the real score.

    At root is that US hegemony is increasingly costly and untenable. And it relies to a significant extent on co-operation from Europe, much more than most people realise. Even many Europeans.

    Replies: @A123

    At root is that US hegemony is increasingly costly and untenable. And it relies to a significant extent on co-operation from Europe, much more than most people realise. Even many Europeans.

    You are arrive at an odd, mostly invalid answer, because you are starting from a false premise of “U.S. hegemony”. Having the largest military has not guaranteed hegemony for decades.
    ____

    Establishing & maintaining Christian cohesiveness is difficult. Trying to bond Europe, the U.S., and Russia together makes a great deal of sense. However, this is hampered by:

    -A- The Anti-Christian center of Europe, primarily Germany
    -B- Illegitimate rule by Not-The-President Biden

    Every world leader knows that the current occupied White House is “Not Treaty Capable“. There are many reasons why the JCPOA farce is going nowhere. A critical roadblock is that nothing imposter Biden concedes to Shia aggression will obtain Senate ratification. Any “deal” is now good for less than three years, and the time shrinks every day negotiations drag on. The clock is running against Iranian terrorism, and they know it.

    PEACE 😇

  139. @German_reader
    @songbird


    Used to wonder if the claim that Claudius wrote an Etruscan dictionary wasn’t some weird smear against him.
     
    Fragments of a speech have survived he held about the acceptance of Gauls into the senate, and there's a lot of antiquarian pedantry in it, not always relevant to the argument he was trying to make (Tacitus' version in the Annals reads much better than Claudius' actual speech). So there probably isn't reason to doubt Claudius' antiquarian interests.

    Don’t believe I ever read another good historical novel set in Rome written in the last 100 years. Spartacus is a case where the movie is better than the book.
     
    I liked Arthur Koestler's The gladiators, but at its core it's a reflection about the paradoxes of revolutions (almost like a companion piece to Darkness at noon, Koestler's novel about an Old Bolshevik purged in the 1930s), so if one doesn't care for that political subtext there might not be much of interest in it.

    Replies: @songbird

    I liked Arthur Koestler’s The gladiators, but at its core it’s a reflection about the paradoxes of revolutions (almost like a companion piece to Darkness at noon, Koestler’s novel about an Old Bolshevik purged in the 1930s), so if one doesn’t care for that political subtext there might not be much of interest in it.

    Guess he was probably influenced to choose his subject matter by the Spartacus League. Sounds kind of heavy.

    Sometimes, I’ve wondered if politics can influence the way you view an author, just in a kind of subconscious way. I mean, not knowing the platform beforehand, not knowing party affiliation, or an obvious giveaway.

    IMO, there’s got to be something that translates through. In the same way that machine learning can guess if something is written by a man or a woman.

  140. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @Mikel

    Russia's demands are not new. What's new is their ability to remove any credible Western deterrence (crushing sanctions) to an invasion. That's a huge improvement in their strategic posture.

    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie. Encouraged by these developements, it's now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states. It's unlikely to succeed, but Russia has managed to break the previous cycle of ever-encroaching NATO members onto its borders.

    Of course, Russia is a weaker country than the US. That's why it has NATO troops on its doorstep whereas Russian or CSTO troops in Mexico or the Caribbean would be unthinkable. But that doesn't change the fact that NATO expansion now looks dead in the water, which is a win for Russia no matter how you slice it.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikel

    So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie.

    Well, no, not really, in principle “the West” hasn’t ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine, it’s still the same kind of indeterminate position that has prevailed since 2008…at some point in the future Ukraine should join, not in the near future, but of course ties are going to become ever closer. And imo this has always been lunacy (and crucially, I have never seen even an attempt to argue what exactly the benefit of Ukraine’s NATO membership would be for the “old” members from Western Europe, apparently you’re not supposed to ask), which was guaranteed to lead to a conflict with Russia, and also likely to arouse nationalist sentiment in Russia due to the large Russian-speaking minority in Ukraine, legacies of WW2 and issues of national identity. But at this point it’s probably like crying over spilt milk. The Europeans have been shown to be completely impotent and irrelevant anyway, so anything that’s going to happen will be decided between Russia and the US. imo this should be cause for concern, but apparently the public even in the major EU countries doesn’t seem to mind much.

    it’s now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states.

    It seems to be an open question how serious those demands are, there’s also the argument it should be seen as an opening move for negotiations (if it isn’t it would be more like a clumsy pretext for war, since those demands could never be accepted by Western governments. Biden would be butchered for it even by his own party).

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @German_reader

    Beware Russia Ukraine's going to send it's Polish Cavalry just. Nuclear hyper power Canada has sent special ops teams to Ukraine. Let that sink in - Ukraine means nothing to the Canadians - ladyboy Trudeau is deliberately picking up a quarrel with a state that has 4,000+ nukes!! That's the height of Anglosaxon arrogance and stupidity.

  141. @Thulean Friend
    @Mikel

    Russia's demands are not new. What's new is their ability to remove any credible Western deterrence (crushing sanctions) to an invasion. That's a huge improvement in their strategic posture.

    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie. Encouraged by these developements, it's now upping the ante, trying to remove NATO troops from eastern frontline states. It's unlikely to succeed, but Russia has managed to break the previous cycle of ever-encroaching NATO members onto its borders.

    Of course, Russia is a weaker country than the US. That's why it has NATO troops on its doorstep whereas Russian or CSTO troops in Mexico or the Caribbean would be unthinkable. But that doesn't change the fact that NATO expansion now looks dead in the water, which is a win for Russia no matter how you slice it.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikel

    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie.

    That’s just the opposite of what Biden, Blinken, Stoltenberg and all Western politicians I have heard talk about the Russian demands declare. So, unless you’re talking about some undisclosed agreement, I’m not sure where you got that conclusion from.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Mikel

    You can start by listening to Russian govt officials for what Russia wants instead of following Western pols.

  142. @Mikel
    @Thulean Friend


    Russia has one core demand: no NATO for Ukraine. So far it appears that the West is willing to accept that, prima facie.
     
    That's just the opposite of what Biden, Blinken, Stoltenberg and all Western politicians I have heard talk about the Russian demands declare. So, unless you're talking about some undisclosed agreement, I'm not sure where you got that conclusion from.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    You can start by listening to Russian govt officials for what Russia wants instead of following Western pols.

  143. Would be fun to see a basic intro by one of these Indian “revisionists” published on Unz. After all, this place gives ample space to alternative voices. Following Indian Twitter, I’ve noticed that these views are becoming increasingly popular among RWers.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
  144. @Yahya
    @songbird


    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

     

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn't be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/06/30/a9b45869-2cbe-4330-b29f-dcee77c222f2/thumbnail/1200x630/5bea353120fe757c93f31bd817a3a810/2019-06-30t175448z-965926761-rc19f52d75e0-rtrmadp-3-gay-pride-new-york.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/49318672_303.jpg


    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don't be a retard.


    TE Lawrence wrote
     
    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the "sexually perverted" Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Coconuts, @Emil Nikola Richard

    I suppose songbird’s source was referring to the pre-gay liberation era in the West.

    Part of the motivation behind gay liberation ideology was the hard attitude to sodomy, pederasty and other kinds of male homosexual behaviour that was common in Western European countries. There was a widespread belief that the Ottoman Empire and North Africa was more relaxed, especially around man/boy activity, this was a kind of meme in the early part of the last century.

    I think what you can see in the current LGBT/Queer movement is an extreme counter-reaction to past European attitudes, in its more ‘sophisticated’ or developed forms, repression of (homo)sexuality is used as an explanation for Fascism, Imperialism, Stalinism all kinds of genocide and so on. This is probably why the elites in Western society have such intense belief in the moral value of promoting it.

  145. @Mikel
    @Beckow


    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.
     
    Russia's situation is worse. Not only is it the encircled country but it has put itself in a position where it has to act after all this tough talk and ultimatums. If it doesn't, it won't be taken seriously and the encirclement will just carry on. The West has already responded and said that it doesn't accept Russia's stated red lines. Now what?

    Not to mention that its only real ally in Europe is Belarus but only due to the weakness of its elderly ruler. He wasn't so collaborative before his rule was challenged in the streets by a large amount of people. Not the best kind of ally to have.

    It would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe, perhaps even joining the EU and NATO. But that would have meant letting the West dictate its internal policies and join its interventionist adventures abroad, something that Russia can't be blamed for not being too keen on.

    Whatever the case, that didn't happen so I think that Russia's stance of not accepting any further encroachment is objectively right and NATO's position of ignoring Russia's concerns is totally irresponsible.

    The whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War, possibly more dangerous than the previous one until some strategic balance is restored, for no ideological reasons at all. It's all hardly anything more than a big pissing contest. Russia's neighbors' Russophobia, Russia's ham-fisted approach to these neighbors and, above all, the West's interventionist hubris.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Dmitry, @Beckow

    Not saying this to you personally. But I mean in general for this forum, whenever any discussions about Russia here. I feel we needed some kind of college course – “postsoviet logic 101”.

    Russia’s situation is worse.

    Worse for who?

    Is it undesirable if Poland bans apple exports to Russia in 2014? Polish apples were replaced with Timchenko’s new apple industry. For Polish apple producers, the EU ban is a loss of revenue. For Russian price-sensitive (e.g. lower income) consumers, it is a money transfer to Timchenko. Was this bad for Timchenko?

    Answer a, b or c? Who perhaps has more influence in relation external policy in Russia?

    a) Polish apple producer.

    b) Price-sensitive (i.e. lower income) apple purchaser in Russia.

    c) Timchenko

    I’m not saying this was intentional, but the results were not so bad from their point of view.

    has already responded and said that it doesn’t accept Russia’s stated red lines. Now what?

    Hopefully (as a normal citizen) there will be nothing but empty threats. But it could be like 2014 tensions again. Perhaps this can be repeated every decade, with some variation of theme.

    Did certain events in relation to Ukraine of the last decade, result in transfer of money and power further away, or to, the people who were influencing those decisions?

    Not the best kind of ally to have.

    Surely, this is quite a good kind of “ally”. One with “limited optionality”.

    Let’s say in romantic life, is your girlfriend/boyfriend more or less dependent on you, if they have wider or narrower “dating optionality”.

    would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe

    Why “for everyone”? For a lot of people, it is not better. Especially including some groups which are the most investing in Europe from Russia. And from NATO, what would their existence be if Russia followed Prokhorov in 2012.

    NATO will be searching for a long time under the sofa for its raison d’être, if Russia was an EU and NATO member.

    whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War

    ?
    Why would it be unpredictable? Inductively, you can see similar patterns have existed in 20th and 19th centuries.

    Ok to use smaller country analogy. Do you think Aliev’s situation will be stronger or weaker, if Azerbaijan was friends with Armenia? What about Azerbaijan and Russia? Do you think Aliev’s position would be stronger or weaker, if he promoted pro-Russian among the population sentiment in Azerbaijan?

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Why “for everyone”? For a lot of people, it is not better.
     
    Well, I don't care about the interests of people who are better off when the world gets closer to a major military confrontation.

    You almost sound like being one of them but I'm sure it's just trying to be argumentative.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  146. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.
     
    Gulf Arab young females tend to be elegantly dressed and dignified in their manner; as typified by Princess Ameera Al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK31fQP_oGE&ab_channel=WorldGovernmentSummit

    This is especially true of Gulf female elites studying in the US. The contrast between them and the native American population is stark. They are also much more conservative in their behavior and manner of dress; due to upbringing and strict parental social control. My sister and a few other Gulf Arab girls formed a social clique when they were studying in the US. It might have been the wealthiest social group in the entire US student population. Some of them would invite my sister to their penthouses in Cannes and London for summer vacation as a matter of course. My family is fairly well-off; but some of these Kuwaiti and Qatari families made us look like beggars.

    Though I did feel sorry for a few of them who complained frequently of the stifling social restrictions which accompanies being a Gulf Arab woman. None of them were allowed to travel further than their university vicinity without their parents' presence. Obviously they also weren't allowed to drink or party; though some tried to a few times. Except for one or two, they also weren't what one would call "naturally good-looking"; though their elegant dress did improve their appearance somewhat. Levantine girls, by contrast, were far more loose and liberal; and much better looking. They may have been less wealthy, or less expensively dressed; but they were natural stunners.

    As for Gulf Arab males; they are neither elegantly dressed nor dignified in their behavior or mannerism. As you mentioned, they are basically rednecks with a lot of money. They are also extremely coddled and childish in their behavior. All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty etc. Most of them carry on being frivolous well into their late 20s and early 30s. Though they are friendly and gregarious in their own way; as you correctly outlined. I once attended a summer camp in Switzerland when I was a teenager. Most people there were other international elites from all over; Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Funniest guy was an obese Saudi Arabian with royal pedigree; though not from the powerful branch of the family. He had the whole place rolling on the floor with laughter. Unfortunately, he had to depart early after collapsing from exhaustion during a hiking activity.


    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?
     
    Egypt is sort of a world unto itself. It doesn't really belong to any of the subdivisions in the Arab world. This is due to its large population, which closely approximates or exceeds all other subdivisions. But in terms of "closeness", Egypt would almost certainly cluster with the Levant due to shared history; going all the way back to the Ancient Near East - even before the Arab conquests unified the region under a single ethnicity. Linguistically, Egypt has a noticeably different dialect than the Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon; though they are not mutually unintelligible as is the case with the Maghreb. In that sense, Egypt is more Middle Eastern than it is North African. Many elite Egyptians also have recent Levantine ancestry due to migration in the 20th century. Omar Sharif was one prominent example.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry, @iffen

    attended a summer camp in Switzerland teenager. Most people there were other international elites

    Yes you have the same experiences like me.

    All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty

    But I wrote the same comment as you 3,6 years ago. I feel like you are either plagiarizing my old comments, or we study together in the same class lol.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-49/#comment-2415533

    I thought to add a couple of points about Saudis.

    1. Whereas our (non-Arab nationalities) parents were wasting money to study abroad. A lot of Saudi young people are paid to study by their government. They are not all royalty.

    2. I guess elite culture in Saudi, will be too religious. And their country is a dictatorship, so there are narrow limitations for what they can discuss. Sometimes being the simple redneck, is the most intelligent choice.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    Yes you have the same experiences like me.
     
    Gstaad?

    But I wrote the same comment as you 3,6 years ago.
     
    Not really. The only commonality I see is mention of "Ronaldo" - a household name.

    1. Whereas our (non-Arab nationalities) parents were wasting money to study abroad. A lot of Saudi young people are paid to study by their government. They are not all royalty.
     
    The Saudi government sponsors scholarships for students studying abroad. The requirements for obtaining scholarships used to be fairly loose; but have gotten way stricter in recent years. You need to be enrolled in certain majors; and maintain a GPA above 3.0. Sometimes they can be somewhat arbitrary in denying people scholarships when oil prices are down and fiscal policy tightens a bit. A fair number of engineering students, though not all, on government scholarships are obligated to work for ARAMCO for a period of 3-4 years after graduating. Most of the Saudi engineering students I know don't mind that stipulation - in fact they welcomed it.

    2. I guess elite culture in Saudi, will be too religious.
     
    Correct. Almost all segments of Saudi society are uniformly religious. The royal family is notably more decadent and prone to flout religious rules than the general population; but even they are sincerely religious in their own way; certainly far more than your average ruling class around the world.

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history. E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance.
     
    See now you're plagiarizing my old comments :)

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-173/#comment-5130149

  147. Interesting how the Austrian Parliament voted for the mandatory jab today. And though Germany has not committed it to paper officially, there still seems to be a secretive campaign for getting the votes and language together. Perhaps, they will only change the value of the fine.

    The way I was reading it, the US Supreme Court was hitting the dominoes on an already tenuous situation, as one cannot have a forever war, even if it is on a virus. Seems to be the case in UK. Maybe, that is just the direction it is moving in – a kind of map of pozz, with it travelling through the deepest and nearest connections first.

    Still, it is pretty scary to believe that the Court, which was almost always pretty pozzed (I except the Taft court) , and will likely soon be totally captured, has the only veto.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird

    A lot of people (women especially) in Germany are really, really hysterical about Corona, and the issue is totally politicized. Basically another front in the war against "Nazis" who are trying to subvert this wonderful democracy. I did an unpaid internship at a state archive last spring, and already back then one of the head archivists was super-proud how they had hosted a conference by Germany's internal security service (Verfassungsschutz) about the dangers posed by the so-called Querdenker (nutty anti-vaxxers). And of course AfD has been strongly critical of all Corona-related restrictions. So mandatory vaccination is not least about showing the alleged enemies of the state that "democracy" will be defended, lol. And a large part of the leftie-liberal bourgeoisie loves it (talked to a former colleague recently, who told me police should just clobber demonstrating anti-vaxxers, just as it should have been done with the Nazis in the 1930s).

    Replies: @songbird

  148. @Dmitry
    @Mikel

    Not saying this to you personally. But I mean in general for this forum, whenever any discussions about Russia here. I feel we needed some kind of college course - "postsoviet logic 101".


    Russia’s situation is worse.
     
    Worse for who?

    Is it undesirable if Poland bans apple exports to Russia in 2014? Polish apples were replaced with Timchenko's new apple industry. For Polish apple producers, the EU ban is a loss of revenue. For Russian price-sensitive (e.g. lower income) consumers, it is a money transfer to Timchenko. Was this bad for Timchenko?

    Answer a, b or c? Who perhaps has more influence in relation external policy in Russia?

    a) Polish apple producer.

    b) Price-sensitive (i.e. lower income) apple purchaser in Russia.

    c) Timchenko

    I'm not saying this was intentional, but the results were not so bad from their point of view.


    has already responded and said that it doesn’t accept Russia’s stated red lines. Now what?

     

    Hopefully (as a normal citizen) there will be nothing but empty threats. But it could be like 2014 tensions again. Perhaps this can be repeated every decade, with some variation of theme.

    Did certain events in relation to Ukraine of the last decade, result in transfer of money and power further away, or to, the people who were influencing those decisions?


    Not the best kind of ally to have.

     

    Surely, this is quite a good kind of "ally". One with "limited optionality".

    Let's say in romantic life, is your girlfriend/boyfriend more or less dependent on you, if they have wider or narrower "dating optionality".


    would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe

     

    Why "for everyone"? For a lot of people, it is not better. Especially including some groups which are the most investing in Europe from Russia. And from NATO, what would their existence be if Russia followed Prokhorov in 2012.

    NATO will be searching for a long time under the sofa for its raison d'être, if Russia was an EU and NATO member.


    whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War
     
    ?
    Why would it be unpredictable? Inductively, you can see similar patterns have existed in 20th and 19th centuries.

    Ok to use smaller country analogy. Do you think Aliev's situation will be stronger or weaker, if Azerbaijan was friends with Armenia? What about Azerbaijan and Russia? Do you think Aliev's position would be stronger or weaker, if he promoted pro-Russian among the population sentiment in Azerbaijan?

    Replies: @Mikel

    Why “for everyone”? For a lot of people, it is not better.

    Well, I don’t care about the interests of people who are better off when the world gets closer to a major military confrontation.

    You almost sound like being one of them but I’m sure it’s just trying to be argumentative.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    I don’t care about the interests of people
     
    My point is, who has more influence in these decisions? And how are their interests from the situation?

    Our influence is not equally distributed. Most of us, like myself and surely yourself, have 0 influence in anything. If I calculate my relation to any kind of politics, even in the most micro level, it is exactly - 0. Our opinion is irrelevant.

    But e.g. some people, are making these decisions, and they can be very rational and intelligent decisions from their point of view. This is where the explanation for the political decisions are, and they are not irrational from their point of view, even very smart.


    almost sound like being one of them

     

    Well, no. I have negative "skin in the game" with any bad political situation, as a still Russian citizen - even if trying to decouple from it.

    But I have zero influence in anything outside my tiny space of life, like most people in the world. I am nobody. So my opinion is irrelevant as the only impact it has is - 0

    And most people are also - 0. So our interest is irrelevant from the explanatory point of view. You can add millions of us together, and we still have 0 influence on this situation.

  149. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    Interesting how the Austrian Parliament voted for the mandatory jab today. And though Germany has not committed it to paper officially, there still seems to be a secretive campaign for getting the votes and language together. Perhaps, they will only change the value of the fine.

    The way I was reading it, the US Supreme Court was hitting the dominoes on an already tenuous situation, as one cannot have a forever war, even if it is on a virus. Seems to be the case in UK. Maybe, that is just the direction it is moving in - a kind of map of pozz, with it travelling through the deepest and nearest connections first.

    Still, it is pretty scary to believe that the Court, which was almost always pretty pozzed (I except the Taft court) , and will likely soon be totally captured, has the only veto.

    Replies: @German_reader

    A lot of people (women especially) in Germany are really, really hysterical about Corona, and the issue is totally politicized. Basically another front in the war against “Nazis” who are trying to subvert this wonderful democracy. I did an unpaid internship at a state archive last spring, and already back then one of the head archivists was super-proud how they had hosted a conference by Germany’s internal security service (Verfassungsschutz) about the dangers posed by the so-called Querdenker (nutty anti-vaxxers). And of course AfD has been strongly critical of all Corona-related restrictions. So mandatory vaccination is not least about showing the alleged enemies of the state that “democracy” will be defended, lol. And a large part of the leftie-liberal bourgeoisie loves it (talked to a former colleague recently, who told me police should just clobber demonstrating anti-vaxxers, just as it should have been done with the Nazis in the 1930s).

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader


    women especially
     
    Suppose I am just throwing red meat to Rosie, but I recently had this thought:

    Nobody could watch television meant for women - soap operas, which are just endless drivel of unrealistic emotional dialogue, even given to men to speak, and endless, unnecessary interpersonal drama - and think it is a good idea to give women the right to vote or sit on juries.

    If aliens light years away were getting the broadcast signal, and they had no other info to go on, they would still be able to come to this determination. Even if it was high-IQ Korean stuff, not meant for export.
  150. @sudden death
    AK was shilling so hard for Putin system last few years, now he got hefty reward - RF central bank wants to ban all cryptocurrencies, lol :)

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/13479717

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It is just a proposal. But is at least a proposed slightly kindly, or enlightened despot, policy.

    Perhaps you can argue that if wealthy American bourgeoisie want to lose e.g. \$50,000 gambling for unregulated cryptocurrency scams, then even the enlightened despot should say “their choice, like going to Las Vegas”. You could believe that people living in American culture should have enough multi-generation exposure to these financial scams to be non-naive consumers of them, and even you can go to recover your funds by working in MacDonald’s, where workers have high salaries in America.

    In Russia, you could feel that too many people are not informed consumers, are not educated to understand basic difference between real financial products like stocks or bonds and gambling more for options, or trying to surf for profit on temporary scams like cryptocurrency (that you will need to exit eventually before the wave crashes).

    Moreover, there are limited opportunities for people to recover from a loss of their assets. Median annual salary in Russia last year was \$8,424 per year. While Russia has second most consumers of Binance.

    I don’t think even kindly, or enlightened despot, policy is a correct one though. Usually bans even of such useless products, can have some way to cause more problems than help at the end. Still, an economic situation where adding more tight tolerances for what frauds people can enter, can be justified as at least enlightened despotism.

  151. @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Why “for everyone”? For a lot of people, it is not better.
     
    Well, I don't care about the interests of people who are better off when the world gets closer to a major military confrontation.

    You almost sound like being one of them but I'm sure it's just trying to be argumentative.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t care about the interests of people

    My point is, who has more influence in these decisions? And how are their interests from the situation?

    Our influence is not equally distributed. Most of us, like myself and surely yourself, have 0 influence in anything. If I calculate my relation to any kind of politics, even in the most micro level, it is exactly – 0. Our opinion is irrelevant.

    But e.g. some people, are making these decisions, and they can be very rational and intelligent decisions from their point of view. This is where the explanation for the political decisions are, and they are not irrational from their point of view, even very smart.

    almost sound like being one of them

    Well, no. I have negative “skin in the game” with any bad political situation, as a still Russian citizen – even if trying to decouple from it.

    But I have zero influence in anything outside my tiny space of life, like most people in the world. I am nobody. So my opinion is irrelevant as the only impact it has is – 0

    And most people are also – 0. So our interest is irrelevant from the explanatory point of view. You can add millions of us together, and we still have 0 influence on this situation.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
  152. @German_reader
    @songbird

    A lot of people (women especially) in Germany are really, really hysterical about Corona, and the issue is totally politicized. Basically another front in the war against "Nazis" who are trying to subvert this wonderful democracy. I did an unpaid internship at a state archive last spring, and already back then one of the head archivists was super-proud how they had hosted a conference by Germany's internal security service (Verfassungsschutz) about the dangers posed by the so-called Querdenker (nutty anti-vaxxers). And of course AfD has been strongly critical of all Corona-related restrictions. So mandatory vaccination is not least about showing the alleged enemies of the state that "democracy" will be defended, lol. And a large part of the leftie-liberal bourgeoisie loves it (talked to a former colleague recently, who told me police should just clobber demonstrating anti-vaxxers, just as it should have been done with the Nazis in the 1930s).

    Replies: @songbird

    women especially

    Suppose I am just throwing red meat to Rosie, but I recently had this thought:

    Nobody could watch television meant for women – soap operas, which are just endless drivel of unrealistic emotional dialogue, even given to men to speak, and endless, unnecessary interpersonal drama – and think it is a good idea to give women the right to vote or sit on juries.

    If aliens light years away were getting the broadcast signal, and they had no other info to go on, they would still be able to come to this determination. Even if it was high-IQ Korean stuff, not meant for export.

  153. @silviosilver

    As you can see, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Anatolian Turks in appearance than to Ukrainians (i.e. the OG Slavs).
     
    That's basically right, although you can't really tell from those pics since you neglected to post the Turkish team. If you google "turkish soccer team" you'll see there's usually a couple of fairly extreme central asian types in the Turkish line-up, which is the only significant difference.

    I don't know how racially "slavic" the balkans are, but I'm not a huge slav fan, so I'd personally be quite happy if it was 0% slav. 25% could well be a good call. I can't bring myself to sift through the dna haplobabble - which is something only a spergy race nerd could ever forge a sense of identity out of anyway.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Dmitry

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history.

    E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance. Those ancient peoples’ descendants are likely still not far from their homelands today.

    By the way, our Ukrainian friends today include a wide mix of appearances, not only the Northern European appearance. A lot of them could be successfully pretending to be Romanians, Bessarabian Jews, Hungarians, etc.

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Dmitry

    Ukraine has its share of non-Ukrainian ethnic groups including some with Ukrainian ethnicity as well. A Russian Empire and Soviet Union influencing.

    , @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.
     
    Really? Lol, they all look the same to me. When you get down to that level, my racial perception is quite weak. I remember reading through "anthro" forums about a decade ago, and people would claim to detect all sorts of micro differences, and I was left scratching my head wondering what they were all seeing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry

    The school is in Zaporozhia in southern Ukraine (according to the comments). Ukrainians tend to get darker the further south one goes.

    Replies: @LatW

  154. Don’t know, if time travel counts as historical fiction, but, thinking it over, I suppose I also enjoyed L. Sprague de Camp’s Lest Darkness Fall, though it is by no means a sophisticated book.

  155. @Yahya
    @songbird


    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient? Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.)

     

    Lol, just when I thought you couldn't be more imbecilic; you come out (heh) with stupid sh*t like this.

    You think the Occident, with sh#t like this, is less gay than the Middle East?

    https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2019/06/30/a9b45869-2cbe-4330-b29f-dcee77c222f2/thumbnail/1200x630/5bea353120fe757c93f31bd817a3a810/2019-06-30t175448z-965926761-rc19f52d75e0-rtrmadp-3-gay-pride-new-york.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/49318672_303.jpg


    Did you know Ireland was being ruled by a gay half-Irish half-Indian a few years ago?

    Don't be a retard.


    TE Lawrence wrote
     
    Do you not see the irony in citing a gay British guy as proof the orient is gay?

    Edward Said wrote a whole book dispelling the myth of the "sexually perverted" Orient. I know it might be tough of you to read such a heavily intellectual book; but give it a go. If you are not able to digest the contents of the book; perhaps give it to a friend (if you have any) to read and summarize it for you.

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Coconuts, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Scott Alexander wrote a very long blog post which is close to his top ten all time if not in it the thesis of which was that the gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas. Isomorphic to John Lennon’s thing that the Beatles are bigger than Jesus.

    I don’t think he has ever been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. March 1 this year and they did not have Mardi Gras last year so it is going to be one hell of a blow job. March 1 is late for any kind of chilly weather in New Orleans.**

    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there and it is impossible to avoid it if you are in or even near the city. If anyplace east of this hypothetical hajnal line has anything remotely to compare to these events I would be surprised.

    **Not a mardi-gras-ologist so I can’t give you the gay percentage but it’s got to be over a third. Apartments in the French Quarter are prime gay real estate and on public transportation it is not uncommon to hear gay guys bitching about the elite snob assholes who live in the Quarter. They sound like high school girls bitching about the cheerleaders who think they are hot stuff.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there
     
    I've always thought it looks like an interesting sort of place. How easy is it to 'avoid the groid'? My number one rule whenever they're around in large numbers is: minimize coontact. Obviously you can't avoid passing them on the street, but if people are going to separate destinations, rather than mixing indiscriminately, it feels more manageable.
    , @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas.
     
    Interesting. I remember watching the BLM protests last summer; and thinking "wow, this is the biggest crowd i've ever seen - and I witnessed the Egyptian Revolution. This must be a real game changer; an American revolution of sorts. Democrats are going to sweep through the next election with the biggest landslide in history". Of course they went on to win; but not by much. And after examining poll data; BLM didn't seem to have that much support among the general population. Nor did the movement lead to any significant change in society.

    What it did teach me is never to use mass protests as a gauge for general sentiment. All mass gatherings tell you is that a certain conformist segment of society was motivated enough to take to the streets at a point in time. TV and cameras make it seem big, and perhaps in a way it is; but there's a far bigger population out there quietly sitting in their homes and shaking their head at the madness.


    I can’t give you the gay percentage but it’s got to be over a third.
     
    Doubt it. In any given society, the percentage of sexually perverted people won't exceed 6%, at best. Sure, gays can be concentrated in certain areas like San Francisco or New Orleans etc. but still they only make-up a miniscule percentage of the population. I think the perception of homosexual pervasiveness is amplified in certain areas because they are more tolerant of public displays of homosexuality. But again; all data indicated they don't exceed 6% in any given population. That's why it irritates me to no-end when some obnoxious twit presumes himself qualified to call a society "more gay" or "less gay". Does it matter that certain areas have 2% gays rather than 3%?

    With regards to the Middle East being "more gay" than the Occident, which is what set me off in the first place; that's just Orientalist clap-trap of the highest order. That a miniscule number of British and French faggot intellectuals went to the ME for sexual escapades in the 20th century does not prove anything about the gayness or sexual perversion of Middle Eastern society. All it does is prove Edward Said right; the Orientalist WASPs of old were ignoramuses who made sweeping generalizations about the Orient in an effort to infantilize and belittle their subjects to serve their imperial purposes.

    Mind you, before I read Said, I wasn't very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument. My brain gets aneurisms every time I come across words like "deconstruction" and "conceptualization" or any other meaningless academic buzzwords. And for a while, I even thought "well, what's the harm in letting some WASPs indulge their fascination with Arabic civilization?" But Said was basically right; the Orientalists were writing with a power agenda in mind; and he did us all a favor by exposing their phony pretensions to scholarship and single-handedly dismantling the BS "oriental studies" industry of old. It doesn't matter if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist imbeciles (kind of like our 'songbird') who made idiotic generalizations based on anecdotal evidence which conveniently served their colonial-supremacist purposes.

    I'll repeat; the overwhelming majority of people in any society are heterosexuals with normal sexual preferences and tendencies. A small percentage (~5%) will have preferences which deviate from the norm. Anyone so inclined can easily highlight and amplify that small segment in any given society to slander another people as "more gay".

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry

  156. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history.

    E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance. Those ancient peoples' descendants are likely still not far from their homelands today.

    -

    By the way, our Ukrainian friends today include a wide mix of appearances, not only the Northern European appearance. A lot of them could be successfully pretending to be Romanians, Bessarabian Jews, Hungarians, etc.

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoBw-ntJGrI

    Replies: @Mikhail, @silviosilver, @AP

    Ukraine has its share of non-Ukrainian ethnic groups including some with Ukrainian ethnicity as well. A Russian Empire and Soviet Union influencing.

  157. Don’t toss the literal baby out with the bathwater, songbird.

    DeSantis won’t do these, but what if a Neoreactionary president close all businesses that aren’t essential to having a large family, impose a vaccine mandate on all non-whites with the sterilizing HCG vaccine that was trialed under the cover of tetanus in Third World countries, and then a reverse-vaccine passport system that accurately enforce neo-Jim Crow or Apartheid laws, only that non-Whites live in semi-permanent home confinement? Also all inbound non-White travelers being sent to quarantine camps indefinitely?

  158. @songbird
    @silviosilver

    How much does it skew with the Occident vs. the Orient?

    Used to be common knowledge among WASPs in the CIA that there was a kind of gay Hajnal line dividing most of Christendom (less gay) from the Middle East (more gay.) Don't know how true it is elsewhere, but I am often reminded of it, when I heard about certain things in Afghanistan. And then there are various things that TE Lawrence wrote, including about Turks, though he may have been a biased source.

    Replies: @Yahya, @Emil Nikola Richard, @silviosilver

    I’m sure there’s a joke in there somewhere, but I’m not at all sure just what it is.

    Since you brought it up, it may be of relevance to mention that Serbia has a lesbian prime minister. (Could pass as an effeminate MTF trans.)

    • Replies: @songbird
    @silviosilver

    Probably incipient Ottoman influence.

    It is always funny to accuse someone of being gay, especially on a geohistorical basis.

  159. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history.

    E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance. Those ancient peoples' descendants are likely still not far from their homelands today.

    -

    By the way, our Ukrainian friends today include a wide mix of appearances, not only the Northern European appearance. A lot of them could be successfully pretending to be Romanians, Bessarabian Jews, Hungarians, etc.

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoBw-ntJGrI

    Replies: @Mikhail, @silviosilver, @AP

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    Really? Lol, they all look the same to me. When you get down to that level, my racial perception is quite weak. I remember reading through “anthro” forums about a decade ago, and people would claim to detect all sorts of micro differences, and I was left scratching my head wondering what they were all seeing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver

    I tend to agree with you, although Dmitry is right in pointing out that there are some definite different ethno types that have left their mark on the Ukrainian look. The genetic code goes a long way in describing these differences. Ukrainians are largely a Slavic people with a sizable minority of Balkan influences. This points to an early mixture of Slavs (Ukrainians) and Balkans (Romanians) that occurred in the Danuban area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began (not the Pripyet marshes or somewhere else near Byelorus). Earlier, don't forget, the large area of Trypillia encompassed large swaths of what would later become Ukrainian and Romanian territories too.

    The two girls depicted at the start of Dmitry's clip definitely highlight his point, although the darker one is really quite dark and looks like a dark Hutsul* girl that spent a long vacation roasting on one of the beaches in Odessa! :-)

    *Hutsuls are an old Ukrainian ethnic sub-group that live in the Carpathian mountains. Their origins probably originated in Romania too, as they were probably of Vlach origin. It's been my observation that there are both darker and also paler elements within this interesting Slavicised tribe too.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Well, Ukrainians can vary from looking as white as English people, to looking as dark as Southern Italians, and everything in the middle.

    This is, of course, because it is a very multinational history country, in many different centuries (the 21st century will probably be one of their least multinational centuries, due to the economic lack of attractiveness for immigration).

    You know in the centre of Odessa, they discover ancient Greek ruins.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrzduhGWI4Y

  160. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Scott Alexander wrote a very long blog post which is close to his top ten all time if not in it the thesis of which was that the gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas. Isomorphic to John Lennon's thing that the Beatles are bigger than Jesus.

    I don't think he has ever been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. March 1 this year and they did not have Mardi Gras last year so it is going to be one hell of a blow job. March 1 is late for any kind of chilly weather in New Orleans.**

    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there and it is impossible to avoid it if you are in or even near the city. If anyplace east of this hypothetical hajnal line has anything remotely to compare to these events I would be surprised.

    **Not a mardi-gras-ologist so I can't give you the gay percentage but it's got to be over a third. Apartments in the French Quarter are prime gay real estate and on public transportation it is not uncommon to hear gay guys bitching about the elite snob assholes who live in the Quarter. They sound like high school girls bitching about the cheerleaders who think they are hot stuff.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Yahya

    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there

    I’ve always thought it looks like an interesting sort of place. How easy is it to ‘avoid the groid’? My number one rule whenever they’re around in large numbers is: minimize coontact. Obviously you can’t avoid passing them on the street, but if people are going to separate destinations, rather than mixing indiscriminately, it feels more manageable.

  161. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    attended a summer camp in Switzerland teenager. Most people there were other international elites
     
    Yes you have the same experiences like me.

    All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty
     
    But I wrote the same comment as you 3,6 years ago. I feel like you are either plagiarizing my old comments, or we study together in the same class lol.
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-49/#comment-2415533

    I thought to add a couple of points about Saudis.

    1. Whereas our (non-Arab nationalities) parents were wasting money to study abroad. A lot of Saudi young people are paid to study by their government. They are not all royalty.

    2. I guess elite culture in Saudi, will be too religious. And their country is a dictatorship, so there are narrow limitations for what they can discuss. Sometimes being the simple redneck, is the most intelligent choice.

    Replies: @Yahya

    Yes you have the same experiences like me.

    Gstaad?

    But I wrote the same comment as you 3,6 years ago.

    Not really. The only commonality I see is mention of “Ronaldo” – a household name.

    1. Whereas our (non-Arab nationalities) parents were wasting money to study abroad. A lot of Saudi young people are paid to study by their government. They are not all royalty.

    The Saudi government sponsors scholarships for students studying abroad. The requirements for obtaining scholarships used to be fairly loose; but have gotten way stricter in recent years. You need to be enrolled in certain majors; and maintain a GPA above 3.0. Sometimes they can be somewhat arbitrary in denying people scholarships when oil prices are down and fiscal policy tightens a bit. A fair number of engineering students, though not all, on government scholarships are obligated to work for ARAMCO for a period of 3-4 years after graduating. Most of the Saudi engineering students I know don’t mind that stipulation – in fact they welcomed it.

    2. I guess elite culture in Saudi, will be too religious.

    Correct. Almost all segments of Saudi society are uniformly religious. The royal family is notably more decadent and prone to flout religious rules than the general population; but even they are sincerely religious in their own way; certainly far more than your average ruling class around the world.

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history. E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance.

    See now you’re plagiarizing my old comments 🙂

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-173/#comment-5130149

  162. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    Scott Alexander wrote a very long blog post which is close to his top ten all time if not in it the thesis of which was that the gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas. Isomorphic to John Lennon's thing that the Beatles are bigger than Jesus.

    I don't think he has ever been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. March 1 this year and they did not have Mardi Gras last year so it is going to be one hell of a blow job. March 1 is late for any kind of chilly weather in New Orleans.**

    I would never go to such a thing but I used to live there and it is impossible to avoid it if you are in or even near the city. If anyplace east of this hypothetical hajnal line has anything remotely to compare to these events I would be surprised.

    **Not a mardi-gras-ologist so I can't give you the gay percentage but it's got to be over a third. Apartments in the French Quarter are prime gay real estate and on public transportation it is not uncommon to hear gay guys bitching about the elite snob assholes who live in the Quarter. They sound like high school girls bitching about the cheerleaders who think they are hot stuff.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Yahya

    gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas.

    Interesting. I remember watching the BLM protests last summer; and thinking “wow, this is the biggest crowd i’ve ever seen – and I witnessed the Egyptian Revolution. This must be a real game changer; an American revolution of sorts. Democrats are going to sweep through the next election with the biggest landslide in history”. Of course they went on to win; but not by much. And after examining poll data; BLM didn’t seem to have that much support among the general population. Nor did the movement lead to any significant change in society.

    What it did teach me is never to use mass protests as a gauge for general sentiment. All mass gatherings tell you is that a certain conformist segment of society was motivated enough to take to the streets at a point in time. TV and cameras make it seem big, and perhaps in a way it is; but there’s a far bigger population out there quietly sitting in their homes and shaking their head at the madness.

    I can’t give you the gay percentage but it’s got to be over a third.

    Doubt it. In any given society, the percentage of sexually perverted people won’t exceed 6%, at best. Sure, gays can be concentrated in certain areas like San Francisco or New Orleans etc. but still they only make-up a miniscule percentage of the population. I think the perception of homosexual pervasiveness is amplified in certain areas because they are more tolerant of public displays of homosexuality. But again; all data indicated they don’t exceed 6% in any given population. That’s why it irritates me to no-end when some obnoxious twit presumes himself qualified to call a society “more gay” or “less gay”. Does it matter that certain areas have 2% gays rather than 3%?

    With regards to the Middle East being “more gay” than the Occident, which is what set me off in the first place; that’s just Orientalist clap-trap of the highest order. That a miniscule number of British and French faggot intellectuals went to the ME for sexual escapades in the 20th century does not prove anything about the gayness or sexual perversion of Middle Eastern society. All it does is prove Edward Said right; the Orientalist WASPs of old were ignoramuses who made sweeping generalizations about the Orient in an effort to infantilize and belittle their subjects to serve their imperial purposes.

    Mind you, before I read Said, I wasn’t very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument. My brain gets aneurisms every time I come across words like “deconstruction” and “conceptualization” or any other meaningless academic buzzwords. And for a while, I even thought “well, what’s the harm in letting some WASPs indulge their fascination with Arabic civilization?” But Said was basically right; the Orientalists were writing with a power agenda in mind; and he did us all a favor by exposing their phony pretensions to scholarship and single-handedly dismantling the BS “oriental studies” industry of old. It doesn’t matter if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist imbeciles (kind of like our ‘songbird’) who made idiotic generalizations based on anecdotal evidence which conveniently served their colonial-supremacist purposes.

    I’ll repeat; the overwhelming majority of people in any society are heterosexuals with normal sexual preferences and tendencies. A small percentage (~5%) will have preferences which deviate from the norm. Anyone so inclined can easily highlight and amplify that small segment in any given society to slander another people as “more gay”.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    A significant amount of Arabs are gay writing came from French writers at a time when France was in shooting war in Algeria or right before or after.

    > But again; all data indicated they don’t exceed 6% in any given population.

    Also I forget what they call it but they have a homo event in the French Quarter on Labor Day and it is small relative to Mardi Gras but the Quarter is packed shoulder to shoulder and the homo % is close to a hundred.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    prove Edward Said right

     

    This discussion about Said is in circles, as Said's book is based on the theory of Foucault, who is the one who is famous for the sexual minority tourism in Arab world.

    So, you complain about the sexual minority tourism in Arab world, but then say this proves Said's whose theories are invented by the one who is an example of this. .


    I read Said, I wasn’t very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument
     
    Because this kind of author chooses a narrative. Then they read a lot of literature, and cherry pick some examples in a Jane Austen book, etc, to support this narrative.

    It's another side of things they criticize. And of course, one narrative "postcolonialism" is fashionable since the 1960s in the West, after the colonies were already ended.

    This attitude reminds after you lost a girlfriend, or had to sell you car. "I never liked them anyway". You can see it very strongly in Great Britain's media or culture. They hate losing their British Empire and this is the energy all saturating to their postcolonial views, that criticize any examples they can see of colonialism.


    if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist

     

    Problem is not racism, but being foreigners from a very different culture, trying to understand Arabs. It's like "Weeaboos" understanding of Japanese.

    When foreigners looked at a culture distant from their one, then they will inevitably not understand many details, and project their emotions to fill the ignorance.

    However, sometimes foreigners can be surprisingly accurate, and see more intuitively in your culture, than local people.

    Ideally, the best view is probably a median distance, though. It's likely that Turks can understand Arab culture accurately. Maybe even Greeks or Italians.

    Even in this forum, for example, LatW (from Latvia) seems to understand more Russia politics, than any of us who were born in Russia. But Americans more have a crazy views about Russia politics in whichever direction (even more often including positive than negative), as they are too distant, and seem to project their local culture.


    Middle East being “more gay” than the Occident
     
    Because distant foreigners don't have enough information usually to interpret local culture accurately.

    For example, among Arabs it's normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtzpQf3O1K4

    Replies: @Mikel, @Mikel

  163. @Yahya
    @Dmitry


    I was also studying with a Kuwaiti woman classmate at another time, who matches my stereotype of how should be an upper class Latino snobby women. Her personality seemed completely secular and modern.
     
    Gulf Arab young females tend to be elegantly dressed and dignified in their manner; as typified by Princess Ameera Al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK31fQP_oGE&ab_channel=WorldGovernmentSummit

    This is especially true of Gulf female elites studying in the US. The contrast between them and the native American population is stark. They are also much more conservative in their behavior and manner of dress; due to upbringing and strict parental social control. My sister and a few other Gulf Arab girls formed a social clique when they were studying in the US. It might have been the wealthiest social group in the entire US student population. Some of them would invite my sister to their penthouses in Cannes and London for summer vacation as a matter of course. My family is fairly well-off; but some of these Kuwaiti and Qatari families made us look like beggars.

    Though I did feel sorry for a few of them who complained frequently of the stifling social restrictions which accompanies being a Gulf Arab woman. None of them were allowed to travel further than their university vicinity without their parents' presence. Obviously they also weren't allowed to drink or party; though some tried to a few times. Except for one or two, they also weren't what one would call "naturally good-looking"; though their elegant dress did improve their appearance somewhat. Levantine girls, by contrast, were far more loose and liberal; and much better looking. They may have been less wealthy, or less expensively dressed; but they were natural stunners.

    As for Gulf Arab males; they are neither elegantly dressed nor dignified in their behavior or mannerism. As you mentioned, they are basically rednecks with a lot of money. They are also extremely coddled and childish in their behavior. All they care about is Messi, Ronaldo, FIFA and Call of Duty etc. Most of them carry on being frivolous well into their late 20s and early 30s. Though they are friendly and gregarious in their own way; as you correctly outlined. I once attended a summer camp in Switzerland when I was a teenager. Most people there were other international elites from all over; Italy, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Funniest guy was an obese Saudi Arabian with royal pedigree; though not from the powerful branch of the family. He had the whole place rolling on the floor with laughter. Unfortunately, he had to depart early after collapsing from exhaustion during a hiking activity.


    Isn’t Egypt categorized also as Levant?
     
    Egypt is sort of a world unto itself. It doesn't really belong to any of the subdivisions in the Arab world. This is due to its large population, which closely approximates or exceeds all other subdivisions. But in terms of "closeness", Egypt would almost certainly cluster with the Levant due to shared history; going all the way back to the Ancient Near East - even before the Arab conquests unified the region under a single ethnicity. Linguistically, Egypt has a noticeably different dialect than the Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Lebanon; though they are not mutually unintelligible as is the case with the Maghreb. In that sense, Egypt is more Middle Eastern than it is North African. Many elite Egyptians also have recent Levantine ancestry due to migration in the 20th century. Omar Sharif was one prominent example.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry, @iffen

    they are basically rednecks with a lot of money.

    We create enough problems for ourselves.

    We don’t need to be dumped on by others.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @iffen


    We don’t need to be dumped on by others.
     
    I just looked up the term "redneck", and found out it is a derogatory slur. I did not know that. I thought it was merely an ethnic label for rural white Southerners.

    I apologize if I have caused offense. But my apology is only limited to you. I'm not a fan of white Southerners in general since they tend to be racist to my kind. They also callously supported the destructive "War on Terrorism" (read: war on Arabs) which has caused great harm to "my peeps" (as you frequently put it) - far greater than that perpetrated on yours. And rural white Southerners don't seem to have any sense of contrition; unlike Europeans or urban American leftists. And let's not begin on Israel.

    But i'm sure Southerners are as charming as they are made out to be. Incidentally, I chose "rednecks" as an appropriate parallel for Saudi Arabians because I followed by describing them as friendly and gregarious - which is what white Southerners are generally known for.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen

  164. @iffen
    @Yahya

    they are basically rednecks with a lot of money.

    We create enough problems for ourselves.

    We don't need to be dumped on by others.

    Replies: @Yahya

    We don’t need to be dumped on by others.

    I just looked up the term “redneck”, and found out it is a derogatory slur. I did not know that. I thought it was merely an ethnic label for rural white Southerners.

    I apologize if I have caused offense. But my apology is only limited to you. I’m not a fan of white Southerners in general since they tend to be racist to my kind. They also callously supported the destructive “War on Terrorism” (read: war on Arabs) which has caused great harm to “my peeps” (as you frequently put it) – far greater than that perpetrated on yours. And rural white Southerners don’t seem to have any sense of contrition; unlike Europeans or urban American leftists. And let’s not begin on Israel.

    But i’m sure Southerners are as charming as they are made out to be. Incidentally, I chose “rednecks” as an appropriate parallel for Saudi Arabians because I followed by describing them as friendly and gregarious – which is what white Southerners are generally known for.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Yahya

    I apologize if I have caused offense.

    No problem, a minor offense at that.

    My main point was that you vigorously push back against WASP Orientalists who dealt in stereotypes to your displeasure, yet you engage in the use of stereotypes yourself. I think we need some sort of fair use ground rules so those of us interested in positive enlightenment can converse in a civil manner.

    , @iffen
    @Yahya

    And let’s not begin on Israel.

    Why not?

    I would be interested in your explanation as to why the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948.

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

  165. @Yahya
    @iffen


    We don’t need to be dumped on by others.
     
    I just looked up the term "redneck", and found out it is a derogatory slur. I did not know that. I thought it was merely an ethnic label for rural white Southerners.

    I apologize if I have caused offense. But my apology is only limited to you. I'm not a fan of white Southerners in general since they tend to be racist to my kind. They also callously supported the destructive "War on Terrorism" (read: war on Arabs) which has caused great harm to "my peeps" (as you frequently put it) - far greater than that perpetrated on yours. And rural white Southerners don't seem to have any sense of contrition; unlike Europeans or urban American leftists. And let's not begin on Israel.

    But i'm sure Southerners are as charming as they are made out to be. Incidentally, I chose "rednecks" as an appropriate parallel for Saudi Arabians because I followed by describing them as friendly and gregarious - which is what white Southerners are generally known for.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen

    I apologize if I have caused offense.

    No problem, a minor offense at that.

    My main point was that you vigorously push back against WASP Orientalists who dealt in stereotypes to your displeasure, yet you engage in the use of stereotypes yourself. I think we need some sort of fair use ground rules so those of us interested in positive enlightenment can converse in a civil manner.

  166. The cargo train fiasco in Los Angeles is worse than originally reported. (1)

    Union Pacific train getting derailed in the section trashed by looters who stole thousands of packages and left the garbage all over the tracks.

    Nick Rose, a senior producer at Yahoo Finance, caught video of the derailment.

    There is no reason for Union Pacific to put up with this.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=62815

    NSFW exclamation in the audio track.

  167. @silviosilver
    @songbird

    I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm not at all sure just what it is.

    Since you brought it up, it may be of relevance to mention that Serbia has a lesbian prime minister. (Could pass as an effeminate MTF trans.)

    Replies: @songbird

    Probably incipient Ottoman influence.

    It is always funny to accuse someone of being gay, especially on a geohistorical basis.

  168. @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas.
     
    Interesting. I remember watching the BLM protests last summer; and thinking "wow, this is the biggest crowd i've ever seen - and I witnessed the Egyptian Revolution. This must be a real game changer; an American revolution of sorts. Democrats are going to sweep through the next election with the biggest landslide in history". Of course they went on to win; but not by much. And after examining poll data; BLM didn't seem to have that much support among the general population. Nor did the movement lead to any significant change in society.

    What it did teach me is never to use mass protests as a gauge for general sentiment. All mass gatherings tell you is that a certain conformist segment of society was motivated enough to take to the streets at a point in time. TV and cameras make it seem big, and perhaps in a way it is; but there's a far bigger population out there quietly sitting in their homes and shaking their head at the madness.


    I can’t give you the gay percentage but it’s got to be over a third.
     
    Doubt it. In any given society, the percentage of sexually perverted people won't exceed 6%, at best. Sure, gays can be concentrated in certain areas like San Francisco or New Orleans etc. but still they only make-up a miniscule percentage of the population. I think the perception of homosexual pervasiveness is amplified in certain areas because they are more tolerant of public displays of homosexuality. But again; all data indicated they don't exceed 6% in any given population. That's why it irritates me to no-end when some obnoxious twit presumes himself qualified to call a society "more gay" or "less gay". Does it matter that certain areas have 2% gays rather than 3%?

    With regards to the Middle East being "more gay" than the Occident, which is what set me off in the first place; that's just Orientalist clap-trap of the highest order. That a miniscule number of British and French faggot intellectuals went to the ME for sexual escapades in the 20th century does not prove anything about the gayness or sexual perversion of Middle Eastern society. All it does is prove Edward Said right; the Orientalist WASPs of old were ignoramuses who made sweeping generalizations about the Orient in an effort to infantilize and belittle their subjects to serve their imperial purposes.

    Mind you, before I read Said, I wasn't very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument. My brain gets aneurisms every time I come across words like "deconstruction" and "conceptualization" or any other meaningless academic buzzwords. And for a while, I even thought "well, what's the harm in letting some WASPs indulge their fascination with Arabic civilization?" But Said was basically right; the Orientalists were writing with a power agenda in mind; and he did us all a favor by exposing their phony pretensions to scholarship and single-handedly dismantling the BS "oriental studies" industry of old. It doesn't matter if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist imbeciles (kind of like our 'songbird') who made idiotic generalizations based on anecdotal evidence which conveniently served their colonial-supremacist purposes.

    I'll repeat; the overwhelming majority of people in any society are heterosexuals with normal sexual preferences and tendencies. A small percentage (~5%) will have preferences which deviate from the norm. Anyone so inclined can easily highlight and amplify that small segment in any given society to slander another people as "more gay".

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry

    A significant amount of Arabs are gay writing came from French writers at a time when France was in shooting war in Algeria or right before or after.

    > But again; all data indicated they don’t exceed 6% in any given population.

    Also I forget what they call it but they have a homo event in the French Quarter on Labor Day and it is small relative to Mardi Gras but the Quarter is packed shoulder to shoulder and the homo % is close to a hundred.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Decadence is the word I could not recall. I remembered it like 3 minutes after.

    http://www.southerndecadence.net/

  169. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yahya

    A significant amount of Arabs are gay writing came from French writers at a time when France was in shooting war in Algeria or right before or after.

    > But again; all data indicated they don’t exceed 6% in any given population.

    Also I forget what they call it but they have a homo event in the French Quarter on Labor Day and it is small relative to Mardi Gras but the Quarter is packed shoulder to shoulder and the homo % is close to a hundred.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Decadence is the word I could not recall. I remembered it like 3 minutes after.

    http://www.southerndecadence.net/

  170. German firms pressure Lithuania to deescalate China tensions

    In a letter to Lithuanian foreign and economy ministers, the German-Baltic Chamber of Commerce said imports of Chinese machinery and components, as well as the sale of Lithuanian products to China, have ground to a halt.

    According to the letter, “the basic business model of the companies is in question”, and some firms “will have no other choice than to shut down production in Lithuania”.

    To avoid this, the chamber urged the ministers to seek a “constructive solution” to restore relations with China, according to Reuters.

    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.

    Russia wants NATO forces to leave Romania, Bulgaria – foreign ministry

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.

    • Replies: @Yahya
    @Thulean Friend


    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU.
     
    I’m not sure that will work out as you intend.
    , @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.
     
    Germany might be able to bully a small country like Lithuania (and while I'm not in favour of such bullying, imo the Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US). But on an EU level its position isn't strong at all, because France and the Southern Europeans will gang up and try to enforce their vision of "solidarity".
    And the present political class in Germany is so horrible, they shouldn't run anything anyway (you also massively underestimate the amount of transatlanticism in Germany...imo there's more of a chance of France under someone like Zemmour standing up to the US than this deeply neurotic and self-hating country, where anti-Americanism can easily be smeared as crypto-Nazism).

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.
     
    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia's goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.

    Replies: @LatW

  171. @Thulean Friend


    German firms pressure Lithuania to deescalate China tensions

    In a letter to Lithuanian foreign and economy ministers, the German-Baltic Chamber of Commerce said imports of Chinese machinery and components, as well as the sale of Lithuanian products to China, have ground to a halt.

    According to the letter, “the basic business model of the companies is in question”, and some firms “will have no other choice than to shut down production in Lithuania”.

    To avoid this, the chamber urged the ministers to seek a “constructive solution” to restore relations with China, according to Reuters.
     

    I'm increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.

    ---

    Russia wants NATO forces to leave Romania, Bulgaria - foreign ministry

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.

    Replies: @Yahya, @German_reader

    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU.

    I’m not sure that will work out as you intend.

  172. The fake narrative about “Russia is invading Ukraine” started to bite in the real world.

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy played down war fears, calling on the people to stop the runs on banks and food stockpiling, saying no war is imminent in a video released on January 20.

    The risk of a full-blown war with Russia “has not increased,” and Ukrainians “must stop running to the banks to withdraw cash, and do not need to stock up on food,” Zelenskiy said as fears of war are fanned by a series of statements by the US.

    Almost all the claims of an imminent invasion are coming from US sources at the moment.

    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-plays-down-war-fears-as-tensions-continue-to-rise-232539/?source=russia

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon
  173. So I got Covid a while back. My symptoms were mild, flu like spyoms for a few days, and some lingering fatigue and cough for a week after. I was physically active the whole time, and drove cross country the moment my quarantine ended (10 days).

    I have always regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

    The most significant thing about Covid was never the virus, but our reaction to it.

    Unfortunately this was masked because the discussion tended to revolve around “facts”, but it was always about what values lie at the heart of our culture, and how we should live.

    It has become increasingly clear that at the heart of progressive liberalism is the belief that elimination of risk is our most important task.

    To this end, we must control our environment as much as possible – implement systems of control, algorithms, bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.

    The problem with minimizing risk, is that the more you succeed in getting rid of the big dangers, the more tiny risks come to seem huge and intolerable.

    So Covid, a relatively trivial phenomenon historically, is seen as terrifying – but also, as an intolerable affront to mankind’s ability to control his environment.

    A female relative of mine told me I’m lucky I had such a mild case. I’m 43, not obese, active, fit, and with no health problems. I would have been extremely unlucky to have had a severe reaction!

    Yet so distorted was her cognition – she is a liberal and a major advocate of risk minimization – that she could not be corrected. I gently reminded her several times that my case was perfectly ordinary and expected. Yet she kept on repeating that I got very lucky.

    This illustrates so well the paradoxical effect of risk minimization – it actually increases anxiety. A society dedicated to risk minimization, is a permanently hysterical society.

    Our perception of risk is not an “absolute” – it is measured against a shifting baseline. Logically, who can say I was not “lucky”, if an infinitesimal risk is seen as intolerable. My female relative was not logically wrong – as so many things that we don’t recognize as such, it is a question of values.

    This made me think of transhumanists – the logical end goal of the modern project of risk minimization. They imagine themselves existing in a state of fearless Security. In fact, transhumanists will suffer from the worst anxiety any entity – was gonna say human lol – has ever felt 🙂

    Of course, they can never be quite sure there is something they didn’t overlook, or some new unforeseen development that creates risk again. Their baseline of risk tolerance will be unimaginably low. Not only will they have so much more to lose, but their cognition will change – the tiniest risk, the mere hint of a risk, will seem huge, enormous, and intolerable, since all big risks have been eliminated.

    The vision came to me not of a God-like race, but of the most wretched beings imaginable, frantic and obsessed with hunting down imagined risks. Their days will not be spent in lofty contemplation, but wracked by unimaginable anxiety.

    In other words, transhumanists will be the logical culmination of our current culture of anxiety, which is based on the illusion of control.

    Such is the inescapable logic of risk minimization.

    I got vaccinated back in April last year, but obviously it long wore off. I will not be getting the booster.

    I have a tough time getting people to understand that my objection is a spiritual objection to the Program of Control that is coming to dominate our lives, and as much an objection to how this thing is being carried out – the censoring, the demonizing of dissenters, the mandates, etc – as it is to any risks associated with the vaccines.

    Certainly, it is now clear that the vaccines are less effective and much more dangerous than we are constantly being assured – but the vaccines may make sense for certain people in certain situations, and I think the risk is still relatively mild. It’s a personal choice, and I respect what anyone decides.

    However, most people I talk to about this seem unable to grasp the nature of my objection, and insist on reducing it to me being afraid of side effects. That’s the only language they understand – risk analysis.

    • Thanks: German_reader
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AaronB

    I'm triple-vaxxed myself, but agree with much of your post, this authoritarian Corona regime is getting more and more dystopian. Thanks for your comment (and good to see that you didn't get eaten by Unz-reading bears).

    Replies: @AaronB, @Barbarossa

    , @Dmitry
    @AaronB


    symptoms were mild

     

    You are low risk, as you are a young man, who becomes sick with coronavirus after being vaccinated (you have T cell immunity against virus as a result of vaccine), and we know your concept of "extreme narcotics abuse" is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables.

    This doesn't mean coronavirus is "mass hysteria", as many people have not been experiencing "mild illness" but suffocated in the hospital.


    regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

     

    In Russia, coronavirus has killed more than a million citizens. Again, this is not mass hysteria, as the authorities try to avoid reporting bad things, and report about happiness.

    Related to coronavirus, there was last year, the most deaths in Russia than in any year after the Second World War.

    https://i.imgur.com/eOr2PCF.jpg

    Pandemic pushes down life expectancy again to around the same level as it was in 1963, almost 60 years ago.

    https://i.imgur.com/i7K8Zwy.jpg

    It's not a psychological event. A lot of people were killed.


    , bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.
     
    Yes, some governments have installed increased control systems over their population (e.g. QR codes) during pandemic. This is perhaps more because they exploited an opportunity, rather than changed pre-existing direction.

    gentrifying neighborhoods.
     
    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader - but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about "terroir". Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class :) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5098370

    Replies: @AaronB

  174. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.
     
    Really? Lol, they all look the same to me. When you get down to that level, my racial perception is quite weak. I remember reading through "anthro" forums about a decade ago, and people would claim to detect all sorts of micro differences, and I was left scratching my head wondering what they were all seeing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    I tend to agree with you, although Dmitry is right in pointing out that there are some definite different ethno types that have left their mark on the Ukrainian look. The genetic code goes a long way in describing these differences. Ukrainians are largely a Slavic people with a sizable minority of Balkan influences. This points to an early mixture of Slavs (Ukrainians) and Balkans (Romanians) that occurred in the Danuban area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began (not the Pripyet marshes or somewhere else near Byelorus). Earlier, don’t forget, the large area of Trypillia encompassed large swaths of what would later become Ukrainian and Romanian territories too.

    The two girls depicted at the start of Dmitry’s clip definitely highlight his point, although the darker one is really quite dark and looks like a dark Hutsul* girl that spent a long vacation roasting on one of the beaches in Odessa! 🙂

    *Hutsuls are an old Ukrainian ethnic sub-group that live in the Carpathian mountains. Their origins probably originated in Romania too, as they were probably of Vlach origin. It’s been my observation that there are both darker and also paler elements within this interesting Slavicised tribe too.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack


    ....that occurred in the Danubian area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began - not the Pripyat marshes...
     
    I agree. The idea that proto-Slavs originated in the Pripyat marshes and miraculously spread over half of Europe within 5th and 6th centuries makes no sense. It was originally proposed by German politicised historians in 19th century as a way to justify German imperial ambitions. Unfortunately, too many aspiring Czech, Polish, and even Russian scientists accepted it - mostly to be accepted at the German-dominated universities.

    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years. The southern areas where too open and flat, not a natural habitat for the Slavs. This region includes southern Poland and Western Ukraine. This is also what ancient chronicles always claimed - "we spread from around the Danube" in the Kiev Chronicle, or Polish and Czech chronicles. This has been dismissed as "myths", but why?

    DNA research suggests that ancient population were often a lot more regionally stable, sedentary and not moving in large numbers. Once a region was settled, farming started and population grew, they tended to stay. The spread of Slavs to the Balkans and towards northeast (central Russia) is very well attested, but they probably always lived in the core areas around the northern Carpathians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  175. Most people won’t see it, but there is a clear connection between phenomena like Covid hysteria and Woke ideology.

    Modern society believes utopia comes from controlling and manipulating matter. So if there is a threat to life, however trivial, we must control as much as possible. That’s always our response.

    Likewise, why be constrained by biological gender? Our society is based on dominating nature, not living with it.

    Old Newton did not know it, but the logical culmination of the revolution he helped set in motion, is today’s Woke 🙂

    This seems like a shocking, even absurd, statement, but if you think about it becomes almost trivially true. A society based on dominating nature cannot help but eventually turn to the human body.

    Our society tells us, that if you feel unhappy, anxious, or dysphoric, the answer can only be in manipulating matter in some fashion. In controlling more. We don’t give spiritual answers. Eventually, this matter manipulation will of course include the physical body.

    Anyone who thinks Woke is an “accidental” phenomenon that emanates from America – and not an inevitability in a technological society – is fooling himself.

    If there was any point, I’d bet anyone any amount of money that China will in the coming decades turn towards manipulating the natural constraints of the body, and develop a version of Woke. China has fully embraced the Program of Control at the dark heart of Western culture, to a terrifying degree exceeding that of the West. It’s just still in the phase where it’s primarily concerned with conquering the external world.

    It’s been said that we are not in a clash of civilizations with regard to China – we are in a struggle with the Wests Shadow.

    Likewise it’s futile to dream that Europe is influenced by America in this matter. Euro elites have likewise fully embraced the Program of Control. Look at Klaus Schwab.

    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature – extreme technology – yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual – it’s a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control – while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it’s dream is always to install a regime of total control – and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AaronB

    Nice to see you back and safe.

    Did you once again go for the winter sun of the Southwest or did you follow my recommendation of enjoying the full force of the winter with some good gear further north? Though not as much as I would like, I'm having some fun this winter snowshoeing and trekking in the snow-covered mountains when time permits.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @AaronB

    https://www.amazon.com/Technological-Slavery-Theodore-Kaczynski/dp/1944228012

    , @Thulean Friend
    @AaronB


    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature – extreme technology – yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual – it’s a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control – while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it’s dream is always to install a regime of total control – and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.
     

    Isn't the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform? In other words, less about technology than the tyranny of the oligarchs to deflect from legitimate demands?

    A complicating factor is that technological innovation has slowed since the end of WWII. This process has worked in tandem with artistic output collapsing simultaneously in quality. Thereby raising the question that perhaps a general malaise is afflicting our societies, rather than a clear choice between two extremes.

    P.S. welcome back. I have missed your incisive commentary. The only commentator left that I am now missing is Mr Chieh, who was probably my favourite Unz commentator (aside from things on China, where he was blind to any other perspective than the official CCP party line).

    Replies: @silviosilver, @AaronB, @Daniel Chieh

  176. @Mikel
    @Beckow


    Washington geniuses got themselves into a cul-de-sac, a no-win situation. Over a few decades they stupidly expanded into Russia’s space without having infrastructure there to support it. And of course a complete unwillingness to actually fight, too risky. So like dreamy morons on a long exposed branch they are staring reality into face. They can’t back down and they can’t sustain the exposed position.
     
    Russia's situation is worse. Not only is it the encircled country but it has put itself in a position where it has to act after all this tough talk and ultimatums. If it doesn't, it won't be taken seriously and the encirclement will just carry on. The West has already responded and said that it doesn't accept Russia's stated red lines. Now what?

    Not to mention that its only real ally in Europe is Belarus but only due to the weakness of its elderly ruler. He wasn't so collaborative before his rule was challenged in the streets by a large amount of people. Not the best kind of ally to have.

    It would have been better for everybody if Russia had followed some sort of association path with Europe, perhaps even joining the EU and NATO. But that would have meant letting the West dictate its internal policies and join its interventionist adventures abroad, something that Russia can't be blamed for not being too keen on.

    Whatever the case, that didn't happen so I think that Russia's stance of not accepting any further encroachment is objectively right and NATO's position of ignoring Russia's concerns is totally irresponsible.

    The whole situation is nuts. We have entered a new Cold War, possibly more dangerous than the previous one until some strategic balance is restored, for no ideological reasons at all. It's all hardly anything more than a big pissing contest. Russia's neighbors' Russophobia, Russia's ham-fisted approach to these neighbors and, above all, the West's interventionist hubris.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Dmitry, @Beckow

    …Russia’s situation is worse.

    More accurately, the world’s and European situation is worse. We have a zugzwang all around. Maybe we should all go home and pretend that nothing happened or was said – you are right, this is a pissing contest. But going home needs to include the West.

    The idea that you brazenly march deep into Eurasia buying influence and placing weapons everywhere, all the time claiming that “this is a march of freedom, not an imperial adventure” is truly nuts. At least the previous Western imperialism had a certain honesty, today they are like teenage girls repeating mindlessly he likes me, I am pretty… , pretending that the world as it is doesn’t exist, living in a narcissistic bubble.

    Moving missiles and forming military alliances with unstable local satraps on borders of large countries has never been ok. Whether UK and Ireland, US and Mexico, Cuba or Quebec, or any other circumstance where a remote and historically aggressive power places its armies on the borders of another power – it cannot be pretended away.

    The incessant and infantile Western rants like “but Ukraine is not a threat to Russia, they are too weak” are so retarded that one wonders about Western ability to even enforce critical thinking. (Right, Einstein, nobody cares about Ukraine, but how about NATO from Ukraine, has that obvious thought even occurred to these morons?)

    Any conflict is resolved by who is stronger locally. In this case, Russia. That’s why Washington tries desperately to avoid a conflict and has gone to childish threats to hope that loud screaming will save them. Actually, the only thing that can save them is if Russia for some reason holds back and chooses to lose face and accept the status quo.

  177. @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver

    I tend to agree with you, although Dmitry is right in pointing out that there are some definite different ethno types that have left their mark on the Ukrainian look. The genetic code goes a long way in describing these differences. Ukrainians are largely a Slavic people with a sizable minority of Balkan influences. This points to an early mixture of Slavs (Ukrainians) and Balkans (Romanians) that occurred in the Danuban area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began (not the Pripyet marshes or somewhere else near Byelorus). Earlier, don't forget, the large area of Trypillia encompassed large swaths of what would later become Ukrainian and Romanian territories too.

    The two girls depicted at the start of Dmitry's clip definitely highlight his point, although the darker one is really quite dark and looks like a dark Hutsul* girl that spent a long vacation roasting on one of the beaches in Odessa! :-)

    *Hutsuls are an old Ukrainian ethnic sub-group that live in the Carpathian mountains. Their origins probably originated in Romania too, as they were probably of Vlach origin. It's been my observation that there are both darker and also paler elements within this interesting Slavicised tribe too.

    Replies: @Beckow

    ….that occurred in the Danubian area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began – not the Pripyat marshes…

    I agree. The idea that proto-Slavs originated in the Pripyat marshes and miraculously spread over half of Europe within 5th and 6th centuries makes no sense. It was originally proposed by German politicised historians in 19th century as a way to justify German imperial ambitions. Unfortunately, too many aspiring Czech, Polish, and even Russian scientists accepted it – mostly to be accepted at the German-dominated universities.

    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years. The southern areas where too open and flat, not a natural habitat for the Slavs. This region includes southern Poland and Western Ukraine. This is also what ancient chronicles always claimed – “we spread from around the Danube” in the Kiev Chronicle, or Polish and Czech chronicles. This has been dismissed as “myths”, but why?

    DNA research suggests that ancient population were often a lot more regionally stable, sedentary and not moving in large numbers. Once a region was settled, farming started and population grew, they tended to stay. The spread of Slavs to the Balkans and towards northeast (central Russia) is very well attested, but they probably always lived in the core areas around the northern Carpathians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years.
     
    The Romanian archaeologist/historian Florin Curta has been studying the origin of the Slavs and their migration patterns outwards for a long period now. He's really become the prime individual for offering more realistic and believable theories, based on archaeological evidence and a thorough review of the written sources, in making his claims. He has a new book out (2020) that I have not yet read, that probably includes and expands on his thoughts on this subject matter over the last 20 years. I did, however, read this mostly laudatory review by the editor of the prestigious and well known blogsite " Indo-European.eu" about this new book, including this important criticism:

    Like many other knowledgeable historians, archaeologists, linguists, or geneticists, Florin Curta shows off his strengths in a book with an excellent overarching and multidisciplinary narrative of the making of the Slavs, but all his well-written chapters cannot make up for his lack of real interest in other disciplines. Especially because genetic and linguistic research lie at the core of his main, explicit aim: to investigate related or neighboring populations that spoke languages without a written record…
     
    I concur. I read that this book can be read online, sorry to say I can't provide you with the link, having lost it somewhere? I can, however, provide you with a very readable earlier paper of his that presents some of his core ideas about this topic: https://www.academia.edu/229146/Pots_Slavs_and_imagined_communities_Slavic_archaeology_and_the_history_of_the_early_Slavs

    Replies: @German_reader

  178. Much has been made of the recent gas price increases in Europe lately. Reactionaries claim it’s the misguided “green policies” that are at fault. Is that really the case?

    Not really. CO2 taxes account for a minuscule amount of the increase.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Thulean Friend


    Reactionaries claim it’s the misguided “green policies” that are at fault. Is that really the case?
     
    Mostly yes.

    The "carbon tax", at this point, is sneaky wealth redistribution to the Elites, but by itself that is not the problem.

    A larger problem is that heavily subsidized wind and solar is expensive to both consumers and government. Electricity cost must go up as these are added to the mix.

    The largest "green" fiasco is sharply diminishing supply ​by turning off nuclear and reducing coal. This allowed Russia to play silly-buggers on pipe line routes. They cut flows via the existing Yamal pipeline thru Poland in an attempt to extort the startup of NS2. (1)

    According to Slovakian operator Eustream, the average daily volume of gas transfer from Russia between Jan. 1 and 9 had dropped to 54 million cubic meters — half the amount for the same period in 2021. The Yamal pipeline, on the other hand, has not been transferring any gas through Poland at all since the end of December.
     
    If there had been a surfeit of excess coal and nuclear capacity, Russia's bad behaviour would have been a foot note. Because Putin targeted a German government inflicted weak spot, there is a crisis this season. Fortunately, the U.S. has significant LNG export capability. Ships have been swung from the Asian market to take advantage of Russia's proven unreliability as a supplier. (1)

    The increasing amount of American gas on the EU market is knocking down not only the prices of gas but also electricity. In Germany, energy for the upcoming month has become 5 percent cheaper — down to €218 per megawatt hour. In France, the cost decreased by 10 percent down to €287.
    ...
    According to Polish government declarations, the contract for gas transfer to Poland, hitherto a key recipient of Russian gas in the region, will not be extended after its expiration at the end of 2022. Russian gas will be replaced by Norwegian gas through the Baltic Pipe.
     
    One would hope that the Science Deniers pushing green mythology would back down in the face of reality. Sadly, not. The authoritarians in Brussels & Berlin are trying undercut Poland's sovereignty by targeting their energy supply. (2)

    The European Union’s Fit for 55 directive package foresees an increase of the goal for reducing the emission of greenhouse gasses across EU territory from 40 to 55 percent by 2030. The costs of this ambitious directive will be gigantic for Poland.

    “Compared to current EU regulations, the fulfillment of the new EU climate package will cost Poland around €190 billion more,” warn Pekao SA bank analysts in a report for the Dziennik Gazeta Prawna (DGP) paper.
     
    When the anti-science crazies lose... They just get crazier. Electricity is a physical reality that cannot be fixed with wind and solar scams.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/poland/us-gas-supply-to-eu-is-5x-higher-than-that-of-russias-gazprom-so-far-in-january/

    (2) https://rmx.news/poland/eu-energy-transformation-will-cost-poland-hundreds-of-billions-of-euros/
  179. On a more positive note, and to escape all that gloom and doom, I am now in southern Arizona, a land of surpassing beauty, and the weather is balmy and mild.

    The beauty here is often surreal and strange – this is the fantasy landscape of Wile E. Coyote and Road Runner, vast canyons, giant cacti, strange plants.

    There is a tree here with vivid, mildly psychedelic green branches. All the plants here have thorns and are trying to kill you lol – there is this one plant that produces these spheres covered in spikes, that fall of the tree, and get blown about by the wind.

    One of these attacking spiky spheres got me in the arm. The genius of these spheres is, that every time you remove one spike, the sphere shifts so that another spike spears you. The spikes have tiny barbs on their ends so aren’t easy to remove.

    It took me about ten minutes of playing this painful game to extract the deadly sphere from my arm. I was increasingly panicked, and thinking I’d have to go to the emergency room 🙂 My arm was all bloody after that.

    Well, the moral of the story is, in the desert the plants may be more dangerous than the animals! 🙂 But these deadly plants have a beauty all their own.

    In the early hours of the morning, I am visited by several coyotes, who yip and howl mere feet from my tent. It’s thrilling to be so close to them in the darkness! The coyote is a small wolf, but very clever. When they poisoned the wolves with meat in the West, the coyote quickly figured out the trick and continues to thrive lol.

    The coyote has vast mythological importance to the Indians, and just seem like a cool animal to have roaming our wild.

    Of course, when I told an urban friend about the visiting coyotes, he could not see the beauty in it – only, “isn’t it dangerous”? 🙂

    If I may be allowed a small prayer – May we soon emerge from the blindness of our time to a sense of the larger Beauty surrounding us everywhere!

    There are huge desert cliffs right above my campsite, and it is said in one of the canyons lives the only palm tree native to Arizona. The cliffs are home to many big-horned sheep, as well.

    To the Americans here, I just spent a week camping in the Owens Valley by Lone Pine, and it is a place I would urge anyone to visit. It is not particularly remote, yet retains a feeling of windswept remoteness. It has been compared to Tibet, and it is a place of sheer magic.

    The valley is a vast desert plain at around 4,000 feet, with the mighty Sierra Nevada rising skyward to peaks of 14,000, covered in snow. The contrast is startling. There is a vast plain of giant boulders and rocky hills at the base of the mountains – a giants playground.

    I am once again reminded of the beneficence of Nature and our need to connect to it – after a few days or a week, our modern culture begins to appear so trivial, and one begins to feel oneself in the presence of forces much larger than mere humanity.

    We need to connect to the Otherworld – the non-human world. The modern madness comes from being utterly shut up in the world of humanity, and trying to refashion the world in our image. It is a kind of deranged solipsism.

    Sanity will return when we recognize once again we are part of a larger cosmos, and abandon our Program of Control.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @AaronB

    I read but cannot find that Lone Pine was the genesis of Ansel Adams' entire schtick.

    https://assets.phillips.com/image/upload/t_Website_LotDetailMainImage/v1/auctions/NY040120/35_001.jpg

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @AaronB

    Also your seed pod sphere with spikes might be a better virus analog than those stupid computer generated images we usually see 30X day that can only be avoided by being off the grid. Stepping on them barefoot is a serious ouchie.

    Have you ever read any Carlos Castaneda? If you are ever inclined to try probably best not to go past the third book. After dozens of groupies threw themselves at Carlos he kind of went off the deep end. In High Weirdness Erik Davis has an authorized (his material was endorsed by a Religious Studies PhD committee at Rice U) take on Castaneda and he thought Castaneda's academic work was mostly legitimate, minimal embellishment.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @songbird
    @AaronB


    All the plants here have thorns and are trying to kill you lol – there is this one plant that produces these spheres covered in spikes, that fall of the tree, and get blown about by the wind.

    One of these attacking spiky spheres got me in the arm. The genius of these spheres is, that every time you remove one spike, the sphere shifts so that another spike spears you. The spikes have tiny barbs on their ends so aren’t easy to remove.
     
    Have you ever tried writing short sci-fi stories? (We need some chum for Daniel)

    This reminds me of something Stanley G. Weinbaum would write. He had the advantage over you because he was writing before science had mapped the other inner planets of our solar system, and found out they were uninhabitable.

    BTW, are you sure you weren't abducted by aliens, and on an alien planet?

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @Barbarossa
    @AaronB

    We have quite a few coyotes where I am, though the much larger wolf-like Eastern ones than smaller Western ones you are experiencing.

    The howling and yipping they produce is really provokes a visceral reaction. 3 coyotes can sound like 10 when they get going and it carries much further than one would expect so they always sound closer than they are. Even though they really aren't any real threat to me, the sounds stir some primal fears deep in the psyche. It strips away some of the coddling layers of civilization in even the most disconnected.

    It does make much more understandable the sense of fear that people must have felt with a pack of actual wolves circling their cabin in the moonlight with nothing but a thin plank door between you.

    Having some livestock the coyotes do pose a bit of a danger, though having dogs out keeps that minimal since they prefer the path of least resistance for a meal. Only once have I had to barge out into my pasture, half awake, gun in hand to fire a couple warning shots at a pack that was prowling right at the fence line of my sheep pasture.

    Overall though, as long as they don't mess with my stuff I'm happy enough to have them around. There are plenty of deer to go around!

    Replies: @songbird, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AaronB

    , @Barbarossa
    @AaronB

    I'm glad to hear that you got over the 'Vid and are all good. We all had it ourselves over New Years, but got over it fairly quickly, though it was pretty tiring for a few days.

    I'm actually going to write down your recommendation on Owen's Valley. I'm hoping to take a cross country road trip with the family next year, camping along the way and it looks like a great stop. Thanks for mentioning that.

    I've only been out West once to visit my brother in Oregon and we did a lot of hiking and camping around Mt. St. Helens and Hood. It was really incredible and makes me want to go back and see more. The scope of everything out West is just so much bigger compared to the East. The trees, the mountains, heck; even the wood sorrel in Oregon was 10 times the size of it back home.

    Best wishes for the rest of your trip. It sounds fantastic!

    Replies: @AaronB

  180. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend


    German firms pressure Lithuania to deescalate China tensions

    In a letter to Lithuanian foreign and economy ministers, the German-Baltic Chamber of Commerce said imports of Chinese machinery and components, as well as the sale of Lithuanian products to China, have ground to a halt.

    According to the letter, “the basic business model of the companies is in question”, and some firms “will have no other choice than to shut down production in Lithuania”.

    To avoid this, the chamber urged the ministers to seek a “constructive solution” to restore relations with China, according to Reuters.
     

    I'm increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.

    ---

    Russia wants NATO forces to leave Romania, Bulgaria - foreign ministry

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.

    Replies: @Yahya, @German_reader

    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.

    Germany might be able to bully a small country like Lithuania (and while I’m not in favour of such bullying, imo the Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US). But on an EU level its position isn’t strong at all, because France and the Southern Europeans will gang up and try to enforce their vision of “solidarity”.
    And the present political class in Germany is so horrible, they shouldn’t run anything anyway (you also massively underestimate the amount of transatlanticism in Germany…imo there’s more of a chance of France under someone like Zemmour standing up to the US than this deeply neurotic and self-hating country, where anti-Americanism can easily be smeared as crypto-Nazism).

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.

    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia’s goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @German_reader


    Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US
     
    While I agree that it may not have been prudent to go through all that ordeal (and I'll stop right there, as I won't be criticizing Lithuania on principle, no matter what they do), I don't think it's as straight forward as you say that it was all just "to please America". We don't know everything about what really went down there. I do know, however, that in the recent years, prior to Covid and even now, the Lithuanian exports grew (they are the biggest ever this year, in their history), when outreach was done towards China a few years back, it turned out to be very difficult to even get access to their market. These weren't the usual difficulties of trying to enter a new market (it's always hard), but there seemed to be more of a pushback. Eventually, at least some Latvian, and I assume Lithuanian companies broke through. Another thing was that Chinese businesses acted rather aggressively towards our businesses on some occasions. Also, my speculation is that if China were to expand uncontrollably, then it would be border states that would probably get the worst of it. But maybe that's too pessimistic (there is still much to gain).

    And this scandal does have its silver lining for Lithuania - Taiwan wants to share their microchips:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/lithuania-taiwan-china-microchip-windfall-clash/

    on an EU level [Germany's] position isn’t strong at all
     
    The position is moderately strong, but, of course, not omnipotent (as a few fundies here seem to imagine, lol). The way I see this relationship, is Germany feeds us and we feed her. But I may be mistaken. Also, countries like Sweden benefit greatly from the EU. The majority of the Baltic banking sector is Swedish owned now (some German, too). Not only are they making bank, they also have transparency of all our cash flows, as well as benefit from the Russian capital that floats around the Baltic States. If push comes to shove, I'd be totally ok with Swedes packing their bags and letting Lithuanian fintechs take over that lucrative market. Anyway, no need to bicker.

    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia’s goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.
     
    Of course, they want to humiliate NATO, as I said in the other threat, they need one point where to escalate and show that the Article 5 is not working. You don't need to occupy a country for that, it can be some tiny skirmish somewhere. But you are indeed right that it may go further than that. Those who are not clear about this and believe that "all that Russia is asking is for NATO not to expand further", should re-read the ultimatum. It's asking for complete "undressing", to put it bluntly, or neutralization, of the Eastern Europe. What's really insulting about it is not even the NATO part, but the fact that they're demanding we don't dare defend ourselves even with native forces. For instance, one of the points in the ultimatum states that training in no bigger size than a brigade should only take place in the neighboring states (a brigade is max 5000 troops, that means Latvian and Estonian troops wouldn't be allowed to train together in any meaningful numbers, while Russia will practice Zapad with Belarus in much larger numbers). So they will threaten our sons from their propaganda channels, but our sons won't be able to prepare to defend themselves?? This is the kind of stuff where you want to grab a glass and smash it across the wall, but I take it quietly because clearly they must have known that this isn't going to be accepted from the get go.

    Similarly, will THEY return to the status quo of 1997?

    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could've started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don't know why they did that.

    Replies: @German_reader

  181. What permissible in heaven can be esoteric on Earth.
    What are Gelmen?

    Read this turbo gay thread on the Islamic merry go round

    :/

  182. @AaronB
    So I got Covid a while back. My symptoms were mild, flu like spyoms for a few days, and some lingering fatigue and cough for a week after. I was physically active the whole time, and drove cross country the moment my quarantine ended (10 days).

    I have always regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

    The most significant thing about Covid was never the virus, but our reaction to it.

    Unfortunately this was masked because the discussion tended to revolve around "facts", but it was always about what values lie at the heart of our culture, and how we should live.

    It has become increasingly clear that at the heart of progressive liberalism is the belief that elimination of risk is our most important task.

    To this end, we must control our environment as much as possible - implement systems of control, algorithms, bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.

    The problem with minimizing risk, is that the more you succeed in getting rid of the big dangers, the more tiny risks come to seem huge and intolerable.

    So Covid, a relatively trivial phenomenon historically, is seen as terrifying - but also, as an intolerable affront to mankind's ability to control his environment.

    A female relative of mine told me I'm lucky I had such a mild case. I'm 43, not obese, active, fit, and with no health problems. I would have been extremely unlucky to have had a severe reaction!

    Yet so distorted was her cognition - she is a liberal and a major advocate of risk minimization - that she could not be corrected. I gently reminded her several times that my case was perfectly ordinary and expected. Yet she kept on repeating that I got very lucky.

    This illustrates so well the paradoxical effect of risk minimization - it actually increases anxiety. A society dedicated to risk minimization, is a permanently hysterical society.

    Our perception of risk is not an "absolute" - it is measured against a shifting baseline. Logically, who can say I was not "lucky", if an infinitesimal risk is seen as intolerable. My female relative was not logically wrong - as so many things that we don't recognize as such, it is a question of values.

    This made me think of transhumanists - the logical end goal of the modern project of risk minimization. They imagine themselves existing in a state of fearless Security. In fact, transhumanists will suffer from the worst anxiety any entity - was gonna say human lol - has ever felt :)

    Of course, they can never be quite sure there is something they didn't overlook, or some new unforeseen development that creates risk again. Their baseline of risk tolerance will be unimaginably low. Not only will they have so much more to lose, but their cognition will change - the tiniest risk, the mere hint of a risk, will seem huge, enormous, and intolerable, since all big risks have been eliminated.

    The vision came to me not of a God-like race, but of the most wretched beings imaginable, frantic and obsessed with hunting down imagined risks. Their days will not be spent in lofty contemplation, but wracked by unimaginable anxiety.

    In other words, transhumanists will be the logical culmination of our current culture of anxiety, which is based on the illusion of control.

    Such is the inescapable logic of risk minimization.

    I got vaccinated back in April last year, but obviously it long wore off. I will not be getting the booster.

    I have a tough time getting people to understand that my objection is a spiritual objection to the Program of Control that is coming to dominate our lives, and as much an objection to how this thing is being carried out - the censoring, the demonizing of dissenters, the mandates, etc - as it is to any risks associated with the vaccines.

    Certainly, it is now clear that the vaccines are less effective and much more dangerous than we are constantly being assured - but the vaccines may make sense for certain people in certain situations, and I think the risk is still relatively mild. It's a personal choice, and I respect what anyone decides.

    However, most people I talk to about this seem unable to grasp the nature of my objection, and insist on reducing it to me being afraid of side effects. That's the only language they understand - risk analysis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry

    I’m triple-vaxxed myself, but agree with much of your post, this authoritarian Corona regime is getting more and more dystopian. Thanks for your comment (and good to see that you didn’t get eaten by Unz-reading bears).

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @German_reader

    Tried to use the thanks button but I have not been active enough lately - but thanks.

    Hopefully my priveleges will be restored soon :)

    Far from getting eaten by the fearsome Unz-eating bears, we had a joyful reunion :)

    But I regard the Covid thing increasingly ad on of the major spiritual fault lines of our times, so it's good that more and more people are seeing that there is something deeply, deeply wrong with this situation.

    The first year I was willing to go along with it, because I thought it would soon pass as it was obviously a sociological phenomenon. I even got vaxxed. The second year I grumbled a bit but figured it's almost over.

    Entering the third year, I now see that it isn't a passing fad, but connected to something really deep about our culture, and heralds a major development and extension of the soul killing Program of Control that is destroying us.

    It is clear now Covid restrictions - and more importantly the attitude of fear and control they embody - won't simply fade away as I once thought.

    The time has come for each of us in our own way to resist this culture of control - without hatred, without rancor or violence, and without demonization. I am also against the right wing demonization of people who take the vaccine and agree with the official narrative - they are just fearful people doing their best, and include many if my family members.

    I regard this as primarily a spiritual battle, and only one front in the larger war against the Machine (although I am starting to dislike using military metaphors, but they are useful.)

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @Barbarossa
    @German_reader

    I want to see the Unz riding bears.

    Ron Unz astride a charging bear seems like it would be a good meme. I don't know what it would be a meme about precisely, but we can't let coherence get in the way of a good visual.

    Maybe when the media elites decide to discredit Mr. Unz they will manufacture such an image to prove his dangerous Rooskie ties to Putin.

    Replies: @A123

  183. @German_reader
    @AaronB

    I'm triple-vaxxed myself, but agree with much of your post, this authoritarian Corona regime is getting more and more dystopian. Thanks for your comment (and good to see that you didn't get eaten by Unz-reading bears).

    Replies: @AaronB, @Barbarossa

    Tried to use the thanks button but I have not been active enough lately – but thanks.

    Hopefully my priveleges will be restored soon 🙂

    Far from getting eaten by the fearsome Unz-eating bears, we had a joyful reunion 🙂

    But I regard the Covid thing increasingly ad on of the major spiritual fault lines of our times, so it’s good that more and more people are seeing that there is something deeply, deeply wrong with this situation.

    The first year I was willing to go along with it, because I thought it would soon pass as it was obviously a sociological phenomenon. I even got vaxxed. The second year I grumbled a bit but figured it’s almost over.

    Entering the third year, I now see that it isn’t a passing fad, but connected to something really deep about our culture, and heralds a major development and extension of the soul killing Program of Control that is destroying us.

    It is clear now Covid restrictions – and more importantly the attitude of fear and control they embody – won’t simply fade away as I once thought.

    The time has come for each of us in our own way to resist this culture of control – without hatred, without rancor or violence, and without demonization. I am also against the right wing demonization of people who take the vaccine and agree with the official narrative – they are just fearful people doing their best, and include many if my family members.

    I regard this as primarily a spiritual battle, and only one front in the larger war against the Machine (although I am starting to dislike using military metaphors, but they are useful.)

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @AaronB


    Far from getting eaten by the fearsome Unz-eating bears, we had a joyful reunion
     
    Sheesh, it seems even the Unz-eating bears have succumbed to the general malaise.

    Where are you off to next? I wanna make sure that place gets equipped with some better bears.

    Welcome back.

    Replies: @songbird

  184. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack


    ....that occurred in the Danubian area where indeed it now looks like the Slavic homeland first began - not the Pripyat marshes...
     
    I agree. The idea that proto-Slavs originated in the Pripyat marshes and miraculously spread over half of Europe within 5th and 6th centuries makes no sense. It was originally proposed by German politicised historians in 19th century as a way to justify German imperial ambitions. Unfortunately, too many aspiring Czech, Polish, and even Russian scientists accepted it - mostly to be accepted at the German-dominated universities.

    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years. The southern areas where too open and flat, not a natural habitat for the Slavs. This region includes southern Poland and Western Ukraine. This is also what ancient chronicles always claimed - "we spread from around the Danube" in the Kiev Chronicle, or Polish and Czech chronicles. This has been dismissed as "myths", but why?

    DNA research suggests that ancient population were often a lot more regionally stable, sedentary and not moving in large numbers. Once a region was settled, farming started and population grew, they tended to stay. The spread of Slavs to the Balkans and towards northeast (central Russia) is very well attested, but they probably always lived in the core areas around the northern Carpathians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years.

    The Romanian archaeologist/historian Florin Curta has been studying the origin of the Slavs and their migration patterns outwards for a long period now. He’s really become the prime individual for offering more realistic and believable theories, based on archaeological evidence and a thorough review of the written sources, in making his claims. He has a new book out (2020) that I have not yet read, that probably includes and expands on his thoughts on this subject matter over the last 20 years. I did, however, read this mostly laudatory review by the editor of the prestigious and well known blogsite ” Indo-European.eu” about this new book, including this important criticism:

    Like many other knowledgeable historians, archaeologists, linguists, or geneticists, Florin Curta shows off his strengths in a book with an excellent overarching and multidisciplinary narrative of the making of the Slavs, but all his well-written chapters cannot make up for his lack of real interest in other disciplines. Especially because genetic and linguistic research lie at the core of his main, explicit aim: to investigate related or neighboring populations that spoke languages without a written record…

    I concur. I read that this book can be read online, sorry to say I can’t provide you with the link, having lost it somewhere? I can, however, provide you with a very readable earlier paper of his that presents some of his core ideas about this topic: https://www.academia.edu/229146/Pots_Slavs_and_imagined_communities_Slavic_archaeology_and_the_history_of_the_early_Slavs

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack


    I read that this book can be read online, sorry to say I can’t provide you with the link, having lost it somewhere?
     
    Unless you've got moral scruples, you can pirate it on Library Genesis:
    http://library.lol/main/9EA4B7DCD18924336591F5F0ACD1C508
  185. @Yahya
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    gay pride parade in San Francisco is bigger than Christmas.
     
    Interesting. I remember watching the BLM protests last summer; and thinking "wow, this is the biggest crowd i've ever seen - and I witnessed the Egyptian Revolution. This must be a real game changer; an American revolution of sorts. Democrats are going to sweep through the next election with the biggest landslide in history". Of course they went on to win; but not by much. And after examining poll data; BLM didn't seem to have that much support among the general population. Nor did the movement lead to any significant change in society.

    What it did teach me is never to use mass protests as a gauge for general sentiment. All mass gatherings tell you is that a certain conformist segment of society was motivated enough to take to the streets at a point in time. TV and cameras make it seem big, and perhaps in a way it is; but there's a far bigger population out there quietly sitting in their homes and shaking their head at the madness.


    I can’t give you the gay percentage but it’s got to be over a third.
     
    Doubt it. In any given society, the percentage of sexually perverted people won't exceed 6%, at best. Sure, gays can be concentrated in certain areas like San Francisco or New Orleans etc. but still they only make-up a miniscule percentage of the population. I think the perception of homosexual pervasiveness is amplified in certain areas because they are more tolerant of public displays of homosexuality. But again; all data indicated they don't exceed 6% in any given population. That's why it irritates me to no-end when some obnoxious twit presumes himself qualified to call a society "more gay" or "less gay". Does it matter that certain areas have 2% gays rather than 3%?

    With regards to the Middle East being "more gay" than the Occident, which is what set me off in the first place; that's just Orientalist clap-trap of the highest order. That a miniscule number of British and French faggot intellectuals went to the ME for sexual escapades in the 20th century does not prove anything about the gayness or sexual perversion of Middle Eastern society. All it does is prove Edward Said right; the Orientalist WASPs of old were ignoramuses who made sweeping generalizations about the Orient in an effort to infantilize and belittle their subjects to serve their imperial purposes.

    Mind you, before I read Said, I wasn't very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument. My brain gets aneurisms every time I come across words like "deconstruction" and "conceptualization" or any other meaningless academic buzzwords. And for a while, I even thought "well, what's the harm in letting some WASPs indulge their fascination with Arabic civilization?" But Said was basically right; the Orientalists were writing with a power agenda in mind; and he did us all a favor by exposing their phony pretensions to scholarship and single-handedly dismantling the BS "oriental studies" industry of old. It doesn't matter if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist imbeciles (kind of like our 'songbird') who made idiotic generalizations based on anecdotal evidence which conveniently served their colonial-supremacist purposes.

    I'll repeat; the overwhelming majority of people in any society are heterosexuals with normal sexual preferences and tendencies. A small percentage (~5%) will have preferences which deviate from the norm. Anyone so inclined can easily highlight and amplify that small segment in any given society to slander another people as "more gay".

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Dmitry

    prove Edward Said right

    This discussion about Said is in circles, as Said’s book is based on the theory of Foucault, who is the one who is famous for the sexual minority tourism in Arab world.

    So, you complain about the sexual minority tourism in Arab world, but then say this proves Said’s whose theories are invented by the one who is an example of this. .

    I read Said, I wasn’t very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument

    Because this kind of author chooses a narrative. Then they read a lot of literature, and cherry pick some examples in a Jane Austen book, etc, to support this narrative.

    It’s another side of things they criticize. And of course, one narrative “postcolonialism” is fashionable since the 1960s in the West, after the colonies were already ended.

    This attitude reminds after you lost a girlfriend, or had to sell you car. “I never liked them anyway”. You can see it very strongly in Great Britain’s media or culture. They hate losing their British Empire and this is the energy all saturating to their postcolonial views, that criticize any examples they can see of colonialism.

    if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist

    Problem is not racism, but being foreigners from a very different culture, trying to understand Arabs. It’s like “Weeaboos” understanding of Japanese.

    When foreigners looked at a culture distant from their one, then they will inevitably not understand many details, and project their emotions to fill the ignorance.

    However, sometimes foreigners can be surprisingly accurate, and see more intuitively in your culture, than local people.

    Ideally, the best view is probably a median distance, though. It’s likely that Turks can understand Arab culture accurately. Maybe even Greeks or Italians.

    Even in this forum, for example, LatW (from Latvia) seems to understand more Russia politics, than any of us who were born in Russia. But Americans more have a crazy views about Russia politics in whichever direction (even more often including positive than negative), as they are too distant, and seem to project their local culture.

    Middle East being “more gay” than the Occident

    Because distant foreigners don’t have enough information usually to interpret local culture accurately.

    For example, among Arabs it’s normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    For example, among Arabs it’s normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.
     
    Yes, an old friend of mine did his military service in Melilla, a Spanish enclave in Northern Africa and he assured me that all Moroccans are gay. When much later I asked a Moroccan friend about this he got incensed and explained that Arab male touchiness has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Afghanistan, from the reports of soldiers and social workers serving there that I've read, appears to be a different case though. But who knows.
    , @Mikel
    @Dmitry

    Just by sheer coincidence this morning I came across this picture of Mo Salah:

    https://i.imgur.com/NO43PEa.png

    In keeping with the tone of the latest posts, perhaps we could all discuss what he could pass for.

    A gay Spaniard?

    :-)

  186. @AaronB
    Most people won't see it, but there is a clear connection between phenomena like Covid hysteria and Woke ideology.

    Modern society believes utopia comes from controlling and manipulating matter. So if there is a threat to life, however trivial, we must control as much as possible. That's always our response.

    Likewise, why be constrained by biological gender? Our society is based on dominating nature, not living with it.

    Old Newton did not know it, but the logical culmination of the revolution he helped set in motion, is today's Woke :)

    This seems like a shocking, even absurd, statement, but if you think about it becomes almost trivially true. A society based on dominating nature cannot help but eventually turn to the human body.

    Our society tells us, that if you feel unhappy, anxious, or dysphoric, the answer can only be in manipulating matter in some fashion. In controlling more. We don't give spiritual answers. Eventually, this matter manipulation will of course include the physical body.

    Anyone who thinks Woke is an "accidental" phenomenon that emanates from America - and not an inevitability in a technological society - is fooling himself.

    If there was any point, I'd bet anyone any amount of money that China will in the coming decades turn towards manipulating the natural constraints of the body, and develop a version of Woke. China has fully embraced the Program of Control at the dark heart of Western culture, to a terrifying degree exceeding that of the West. It's just still in the phase where it's primarily concerned with conquering the external world.

    It's been said that we are not in a clash of civilizations with regard to China - we are in a struggle with the Wests Shadow.

    Likewise it's futile to dream that Europe is influenced by America in this matter. Euro elites have likewise fully embraced the Program of Control. Look at Klaus Schwab.

    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature - extreme technology - yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual - it's a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control - while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it's dream is always to install a regime of total control - and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Thulean Friend

    Nice to see you back and safe.

    Did you once again go for the winter sun of the Southwest or did you follow my recommendation of enjoying the full force of the winter with some good gear further north? Though not as much as I would like, I’m having some fun this winter snowshoeing and trekking in the snow-covered mountains when time permits.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Thanks!

    So I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun :) Although I really do have a special fondness for the desert.

    However, I did spend Christmas with family in the Sierras during that big snowstorm we just had - three days without power, it was great. Snow was I think 7 feet deep in places.

    I had a fantastic time and it really made me want to try winter camping! It was a delicious experience, to take a few swills of good whiskey and head out to wander the winter woods, all quiet and mysterious under a blanket of snow :)

    It's a special experience of silence and mystery, that I now see is unique - it has whetted my appetite!

    I also spent a week in the Owens Valley, where the nights were freezing and the days in the fifties. Not quite winter, but I enjoyed it's slightly wintery feel - the giant Sierras right above my tent covered in snow - and look back upon it fondly from my current place in the desert.

    Yet the awesome desert scenery also has a deep claim on my heart!

    Well, I am hoping to make this trip longer than previous ones, so after I sate my soul with the mysteries of the desert, I hope to finally try communing with the silent mysteries of the snow.

    Replies: @Mikel

  187. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    Most likely the ethno-genesis of Slavs was in the northern and eastern Carpathian basin region, going back 2 to 4 thousand years.
     
    The Romanian archaeologist/historian Florin Curta has been studying the origin of the Slavs and their migration patterns outwards for a long period now. He's really become the prime individual for offering more realistic and believable theories, based on archaeological evidence and a thorough review of the written sources, in making his claims. He has a new book out (2020) that I have not yet read, that probably includes and expands on his thoughts on this subject matter over the last 20 years. I did, however, read this mostly laudatory review by the editor of the prestigious and well known blogsite " Indo-European.eu" about this new book, including this important criticism:

    Like many other knowledgeable historians, archaeologists, linguists, or geneticists, Florin Curta shows off his strengths in a book with an excellent overarching and multidisciplinary narrative of the making of the Slavs, but all his well-written chapters cannot make up for his lack of real interest in other disciplines. Especially because genetic and linguistic research lie at the core of his main, explicit aim: to investigate related or neighboring populations that spoke languages without a written record…
     
    I concur. I read that this book can be read online, sorry to say I can't provide you with the link, having lost it somewhere? I can, however, provide you with a very readable earlier paper of his that presents some of his core ideas about this topic: https://www.academia.edu/229146/Pots_Slavs_and_imagined_communities_Slavic_archaeology_and_the_history_of_the_early_Slavs

    Replies: @German_reader

    I read that this book can be read online, sorry to say I can’t provide you with the link, having lost it somewhere?

    Unless you’ve got moral scruples, you can pirate it on Library Genesis:
    http://library.lol/main/9EA4B7DCD18924336591F5F0ACD1C508

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  188. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    prove Edward Said right

     

    This discussion about Said is in circles, as Said's book is based on the theory of Foucault, who is the one who is famous for the sexual minority tourism in Arab world.

    So, you complain about the sexual minority tourism in Arab world, but then say this proves Said's whose theories are invented by the one who is an example of this. .


    I read Said, I wasn’t very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument
     
    Because this kind of author chooses a narrative. Then they read a lot of literature, and cherry pick some examples in a Jane Austen book, etc, to support this narrative.

    It's another side of things they criticize. And of course, one narrative "postcolonialism" is fashionable since the 1960s in the West, after the colonies were already ended.

    This attitude reminds after you lost a girlfriend, or had to sell you car. "I never liked them anyway". You can see it very strongly in Great Britain's media or culture. They hate losing their British Empire and this is the energy all saturating to their postcolonial views, that criticize any examples they can see of colonialism.


    if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist

     

    Problem is not racism, but being foreigners from a very different culture, trying to understand Arabs. It's like "Weeaboos" understanding of Japanese.

    When foreigners looked at a culture distant from their one, then they will inevitably not understand many details, and project their emotions to fill the ignorance.

    However, sometimes foreigners can be surprisingly accurate, and see more intuitively in your culture, than local people.

    Ideally, the best view is probably a median distance, though. It's likely that Turks can understand Arab culture accurately. Maybe even Greeks or Italians.

    Even in this forum, for example, LatW (from Latvia) seems to understand more Russia politics, than any of us who were born in Russia. But Americans more have a crazy views about Russia politics in whichever direction (even more often including positive than negative), as they are too distant, and seem to project their local culture.


    Middle East being “more gay” than the Occident
     
    Because distant foreigners don't have enough information usually to interpret local culture accurately.

    For example, among Arabs it's normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtzpQf3O1K4

    Replies: @Mikel, @Mikel

    For example, among Arabs it’s normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.

    Yes, an old friend of mine did his military service in Melilla, a Spanish enclave in Northern Africa and he assured me that all Moroccans are gay. When much later I asked a Moroccan friend about this he got incensed and explained that Arab male touchiness has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Afghanistan, from the reports of soldiers and social workers serving there that I’ve read, appears to be a different case though. But who knows.

    • Agree: Dmitry
  189. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.
     
    Really? Lol, they all look the same to me. When you get down to that level, my racial perception is quite weak. I remember reading through "anthro" forums about a decade ago, and people would claim to detect all sorts of micro differences, and I was left scratching my head wondering what they were all seeing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Well, Ukrainians can vary from looking as white as English people, to looking as dark as Southern Italians, and everything in the middle.

    This is, of course, because it is a very multinational history country, in many different centuries (the 21st century will probably be one of their least multinational centuries, due to the economic lack of attractiveness for immigration).

    You know in the centre of Odessa, they discover ancient Greek ruins.

  190. @AaronB
    Most people won't see it, but there is a clear connection between phenomena like Covid hysteria and Woke ideology.

    Modern society believes utopia comes from controlling and manipulating matter. So if there is a threat to life, however trivial, we must control as much as possible. That's always our response.

    Likewise, why be constrained by biological gender? Our society is based on dominating nature, not living with it.

    Old Newton did not know it, but the logical culmination of the revolution he helped set in motion, is today's Woke :)

    This seems like a shocking, even absurd, statement, but if you think about it becomes almost trivially true. A society based on dominating nature cannot help but eventually turn to the human body.

    Our society tells us, that if you feel unhappy, anxious, or dysphoric, the answer can only be in manipulating matter in some fashion. In controlling more. We don't give spiritual answers. Eventually, this matter manipulation will of course include the physical body.

    Anyone who thinks Woke is an "accidental" phenomenon that emanates from America - and not an inevitability in a technological society - is fooling himself.

    If there was any point, I'd bet anyone any amount of money that China will in the coming decades turn towards manipulating the natural constraints of the body, and develop a version of Woke. China has fully embraced the Program of Control at the dark heart of Western culture, to a terrifying degree exceeding that of the West. It's just still in the phase where it's primarily concerned with conquering the external world.

    It's been said that we are not in a clash of civilizations with regard to China - we are in a struggle with the Wests Shadow.

    Likewise it's futile to dream that Europe is influenced by America in this matter. Euro elites have likewise fully embraced the Program of Control. Look at Klaus Schwab.

    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature - extreme technology - yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual - it's a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control - while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it's dream is always to install a regime of total control - and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Thulean Friend

  191. @Mikel
    @AaronB

    Nice to see you back and safe.

    Did you once again go for the winter sun of the Southwest or did you follow my recommendation of enjoying the full force of the winter with some good gear further north? Though not as much as I would like, I'm having some fun this winter snowshoeing and trekking in the snow-covered mountains when time permits.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Thanks!

    So I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun 🙂 Although I really do have a special fondness for the desert.

    However, I did spend Christmas with family in the Sierras during that big snowstorm we just had – three days without power, it was great. Snow was I think 7 feet deep in places.

    I had a fantastic time and it really made me want to try winter camping! It was a delicious experience, to take a few swills of good whiskey and head out to wander the winter woods, all quiet and mysterious under a blanket of snow 🙂

    It’s a special experience of silence and mystery, that I now see is unique – it has whetted my appetite!

    I also spent a week in the Owens Valley, where the nights were freezing and the days in the fifties. Not quite winter, but I enjoyed it’s slightly wintery feel – the giant Sierras right above my tent covered in snow – and look back upon it fondly from my current place in the desert.

    Yet the awesome desert scenery also has a deep claim on my heart!

    Well, I am hoping to make this trip longer than previous ones, so after I sate my soul with the mysteries of the desert, I hope to finally try communing with the silent mysteries of the snow.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AaronB

    Sorry, I had missed your recount of your camping activities in Arizona.

    Due to the special treatment received by your comments, one needs to remember to look upthread sporadically when you're around.


    I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun
     
    Nothing to be ashamed of at all. What good is it to have these wonderful regions of benign sunny weather if we are not going to enjoy them when the sun is in short supply everywhere else?

    Besides, camping in the Owens Valley in winter is no laughing matter. It gets cold there at night. I saw that the end of year snowfalls reached that region, at least up to Bishop.

    I agree that it is a desolate but beautiful place between the High Sierras and the Death Valley. In mid July, when the heat is at its most unbearable, they organize a very crazy ultramarathon from the scorching depth of Death Valley at Badwater to the footsteps of the Mount Whitney (the lowest and highest points of the contiguous US). Apparently, some people have made it all the way to the top of the peak but now the ascent to this mountain is restricted.

    When I heard about this race I planned to enrol and give it a try but there was no way they would have allowed me to participate. You need to show experience in this sort of marathons and I cannot really document any of my crazy adventures.

    Anyway, if you have the time and proper gear, you may enjoy a short winter camping trip above the snowline. Northern Arizona, especially the Flagstaff area, gets plenty of snow this time of the year. I think that experiencing the elements during wintertime is very much in line with your idea that life is not about seeking permanent comfort and security, which I totally agree with. I certainly get a good high every time the snow season returns when I go up there and experience the new cycle of nature, immutable and unforgiving. But maybe it's just my eccentric self. Be careful whatever you do.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AaronB

  192. @AaronB
    So I got Covid a while back. My symptoms were mild, flu like spyoms for a few days, and some lingering fatigue and cough for a week after. I was physically active the whole time, and drove cross country the moment my quarantine ended (10 days).

    I have always regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

    The most significant thing about Covid was never the virus, but our reaction to it.

    Unfortunately this was masked because the discussion tended to revolve around "facts", but it was always about what values lie at the heart of our culture, and how we should live.

    It has become increasingly clear that at the heart of progressive liberalism is the belief that elimination of risk is our most important task.

    To this end, we must control our environment as much as possible - implement systems of control, algorithms, bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.

    The problem with minimizing risk, is that the more you succeed in getting rid of the big dangers, the more tiny risks come to seem huge and intolerable.

    So Covid, a relatively trivial phenomenon historically, is seen as terrifying - but also, as an intolerable affront to mankind's ability to control his environment.

    A female relative of mine told me I'm lucky I had such a mild case. I'm 43, not obese, active, fit, and with no health problems. I would have been extremely unlucky to have had a severe reaction!

    Yet so distorted was her cognition - she is a liberal and a major advocate of risk minimization - that she could not be corrected. I gently reminded her several times that my case was perfectly ordinary and expected. Yet she kept on repeating that I got very lucky.

    This illustrates so well the paradoxical effect of risk minimization - it actually increases anxiety. A society dedicated to risk minimization, is a permanently hysterical society.

    Our perception of risk is not an "absolute" - it is measured against a shifting baseline. Logically, who can say I was not "lucky", if an infinitesimal risk is seen as intolerable. My female relative was not logically wrong - as so many things that we don't recognize as such, it is a question of values.

    This made me think of transhumanists - the logical end goal of the modern project of risk minimization. They imagine themselves existing in a state of fearless Security. In fact, transhumanists will suffer from the worst anxiety any entity - was gonna say human lol - has ever felt :)

    Of course, they can never be quite sure there is something they didn't overlook, or some new unforeseen development that creates risk again. Their baseline of risk tolerance will be unimaginably low. Not only will they have so much more to lose, but their cognition will change - the tiniest risk, the mere hint of a risk, will seem huge, enormous, and intolerable, since all big risks have been eliminated.

    The vision came to me not of a God-like race, but of the most wretched beings imaginable, frantic and obsessed with hunting down imagined risks. Their days will not be spent in lofty contemplation, but wracked by unimaginable anxiety.

    In other words, transhumanists will be the logical culmination of our current culture of anxiety, which is based on the illusion of control.

    Such is the inescapable logic of risk minimization.

    I got vaccinated back in April last year, but obviously it long wore off. I will not be getting the booster.

    I have a tough time getting people to understand that my objection is a spiritual objection to the Program of Control that is coming to dominate our lives, and as much an objection to how this thing is being carried out - the censoring, the demonizing of dissenters, the mandates, etc - as it is to any risks associated with the vaccines.

    Certainly, it is now clear that the vaccines are less effective and much more dangerous than we are constantly being assured - but the vaccines may make sense for certain people in certain situations, and I think the risk is still relatively mild. It's a personal choice, and I respect what anyone decides.

    However, most people I talk to about this seem unable to grasp the nature of my objection, and insist on reducing it to me being afraid of side effects. That's the only language they understand - risk analysis.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry

    symptoms were mild

    You are low risk, as you are a young man, who becomes sick with coronavirus after being vaccinated (you have T cell immunity against virus as a result of vaccine), and we know your concept of “extreme narcotics abuse” is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables.

    This doesn’t mean coronavirus is “mass hysteria”, as many people have not been experiencing “mild illness” but suffocated in the hospital.

    regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

    In Russia, coronavirus has killed more than a million citizens. Again, this is not mass hysteria, as the authorities try to avoid reporting bad things, and report about happiness.

    Related to coronavirus, there was last year, the most deaths in Russia than in any year after the Second World War.

    Pandemic pushes down life expectancy again to around the same level as it was in 1963, almost 60 years ago.

    It’s not a psychological event. A lot of people were killed.

    , bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.

    Yes, some governments have installed increased control systems over their population (e.g. QR codes) during pandemic. This is perhaps more because they exploited an opportunity, rather than changed pre-existing direction.

    gentrifying neighborhoods.

    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader – but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about “terroir”. Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class 🙂 https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5098370

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Dmitry

    Ah, Dmitry trying to ignore the spiritual dimension and reduce everything to technocratic measures :)

    Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines :)

    But your attitude, Dmitry, illustrates my point - which you seem to have missed.

    I am not denying that Covid has killed people. I am questioning whether our reaction was commensurate with the threat.

    And that is a question of values. Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression? With the loss in social life, the loss in opportunities for friendship and community, for love, for seeing smiles on people's faces? The demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions? The hysteria?

    Should life be about Safety?

    Those are spiritual questions.

    Dmitry, you are younger than me - in your twenties iirc - and you seem to have led a charmed and sheltered life so far. I am happy for you, truly.

    But as pleasant, intelligent, and charming as you are - and I'm sure you'd make excellent company over dinner - I cannot avoid saying that there seems to be something lacking in you - a kind of spiritual emptiness.

    Not entirely - there are flickers of spirituality in you. But do you not have a sense that there is "more" to life than your materialistic pleasures? And that scientific control is developing in a deeply troubling way?

    Perhaps, also, there is a desire to portray yourself as a debonair 18th century aristocrat in the English style, amused, cool, and unruffled, untroubled by such murky and messy questions as might trouble the soul on a dark night.

    And perhaps you do not yet see the problems with the Official Narrative.

    You are clearly not one of those who is tormented by modernity - suffering is not your role, it seems. Rather, you belong to that category of modern man who lives with a vast emptiness in his life, a chasm of meaninglessness.

    I once read a book about 18th century French aristocrats and their utterly reasonable and rational lives, all amused and aloof - I was 15 at the time, and had come from a richly imaginative childhood - and I remembered emerging with a sense of horror, emptiness, and futility at their vacuous lives.

    I had to read a good fantasy book - I believe it was the excellent Earthsea cycle by Leguin- after that just to cleanse my soul from the horror :)

    But I believe, Dmitry, that you are big enough to emerge from this youthful vacuity into something larger im life as you age. Often, our "initiation" into the mysteries of life occur as the result of illness or misfortune - but I do not wish that on you, and hope your emergence from the enchanted slumbers of youth are smoother.

    Honestly, in my 20s I was a Card Carrying member of the Official Narrative - complete and total atheist and full believer in Science. In fact, one of my chief frustrations at the time was how not fully rational - honest - many scientists and rational thinkers were.

    I think it was my very passion for scientific honesty, that made me press onward and see that the assumptions of science, and the world picture it gives us, are not actually proven.


    and we know your concept of “extreme narcotics abuse” is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables
     
    So here you are not quite correct, I'm afraid.

    I do drink more alcohol then modern science says is healthy.

    I can not drink for weeks, but I can easily go long periods drinking about eight to ten drinks a day - occasionally more.

    But then, I fully believe that the increase in social warmth and joy, sense of connection, more then compensates from any ill health effects.

    In Chan Buddhism, alcohol is sometimes said to be almost as good as reading texts in reaching that non-dual spiritual state :)

    As so often, modern medicine treats us as mere bodies, and forgets we are psycho-physical organisms.

    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader – but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about “terroir”. Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class 🙂
     
    Unfortunately, utu seems to have gotten more curmudgeonly as time went on. He used to have a good spiritual dimension. His panic over Covid and support for the Program of Control suggests he has lost connection to higher things.

    Of course, this is much more likely to happen among today's elites :) So yes, our good utu is almost certainly of the upper classes.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

  193. @Yahya
    @iffen


    We don’t need to be dumped on by others.
     
    I just looked up the term "redneck", and found out it is a derogatory slur. I did not know that. I thought it was merely an ethnic label for rural white Southerners.

    I apologize if I have caused offense. But my apology is only limited to you. I'm not a fan of white Southerners in general since they tend to be racist to my kind. They also callously supported the destructive "War on Terrorism" (read: war on Arabs) which has caused great harm to "my peeps" (as you frequently put it) - far greater than that perpetrated on yours. And rural white Southerners don't seem to have any sense of contrition; unlike Europeans or urban American leftists. And let's not begin on Israel.

    But i'm sure Southerners are as charming as they are made out to be. Incidentally, I chose "rednecks" as an appropriate parallel for Saudi Arabians because I followed by describing them as friendly and gregarious - which is what white Southerners are generally known for.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen

    And let’s not begin on Israel.

    Why not?

    I would be interested in your explanation as to why the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948.

    • Troll: silviosilver
    • Replies: @A123
    @iffen


    I would be interested in your explanation as to why the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948.
     
    Is it not obvious? Transjordan wanted to establish Muslim Apartheid targeting Jews & Christians on the West Bank.

    Ethnic Cleansing is a part of Jihadi behavior. Look at what they have achieved 1948-present.

     
    https://i1.wp.com/markhumphrys.com/Images/11.jpg
     

    PEACE 😇
    , @Yahya
    @iffen

    Well my comment was mostly pertaining to the well-known staunch Southern Evangelical support for Israel, rather than the conflict itself. The way I, and many other Arabs see it is, American Zionists are gratuitously rubbing their noses in a conflict they have no business getting involved in. Of course, as the world's foremost superpower, Americans are free to support whomever they want (no-one is going to stop them after all); but don’t be surprised when Palestinians hate Americans for aiding and abetting their dispossession and unfailingly covering for Israel’s worst criminal actions every step of the way; when Palestinians did nothing untoward Americans to provoke such hostility and ill treatment.

    As for why Arab states attacked Israel; that would be to prevent the unjust UN Partition Plan for Palestine of 1947 from coming into effect. To comprehend the injustice of that plan requires us to look at 3 facets: (a) Palestine's demographic changes from 1800 till 1947, (b) the nature and intent of the demographic changes, (c) the way in which Resolution 181 was concocted and passed through the UN General Assembly.

    A. Palestine Demographics from 1800 till 1947

    In 1800, Palestine under imperial Ottoman rule had a population of about 275,000 to 300,000 people; of whom 90 percent were Muslim Arabs, 20,000 to 30,000 Christian Arabs, and 7,000 to 10,000 Arab Jews. For all intents and purposes we can consider Palestine to have been ~100% Arab by the early 19th century - no great surprise. Of course whether or not these inhabitants called themselves "Palestinians" or "Arabs" is irrelevant; since at the time there was no need for a national or ethnic conscious. The world was different; the Ottoman millet system was organized around religion not ethnicity or nationality. But regardless of what these inhabitants called themselves; they were in effect the indigenous people of the land - by and large the descendants of those who lived there continuously since the dawn of civilization. For shorthand purposes, we shall thus call this demographic "Native Palestinians" and the yet-to-come immigrants "Zionist Foreigners".

    In 1881, just before the first wave of Zionist immigration began; the population composition hardly changed. Palestine’s population was 457,000—about 400,000 of them Muslims, and 42,000 Christians (mostly Greek Orthodox), and 13,000–20,000 Jews. Palestine was still inhabited by the same people as before; the native inhabitants. Things began to change slowly starting from 1881; when the Ottoman authorities allowed a small number of Ashkenazi Jews to immigrate to Palestine. During the 1880s and 1890s, these Zionist newcomers referred not to the “Arabs” but to the “natives,” the “inhabitants,” or, sectorally, to “fellahin,” “city folk,” “Bedouin,” “Christians,” and so on. From some point around 1908, the use of “Arabs” came to predominate. It would take a while more for the "Palestinian" identity to gel among Muslims and Christians in Palestine.

    In 1914, just before the British took over, Palestine had 657,000 Muslim inhabitants (including 7,000 Druze), 81,000 Christians, and 60,000 Jews. Again, not much changed, except for a small increase in the Jewish percentage due to Zionist immigration. It's only when the British Mandate began, that demographics would be altered significantly; and eventually sow the seeds of conflict. By 1939, there were 1,070,000 Arabs (950,000 of them Muslims) and 460,000 Jews in Palestine. Arabs declined from 100% of the population in 1800, to 82 percent of the population in 1931 to less than 70 percent in 1939. Additional plans for increased Zionist immigration threatened to reduce the Arab population even further.

    It's important to note that throughout the whole period; the native Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian, objected forcefully to being demographically reduced by their Ottoman and British occupiers. In March 1911, 150 Palestinian notables cabled the Turkish parliament protesting against land sales to Jews. The governor of Jerusalem, Azmi Bey, stated: “We are not xenophobes; we welcome all strangers. We are not anti-Semites; we value the economic superiority of the Jews. But no nation, no government could open its arms to groups … aiming to take Palestine from us.” Two other deputies; Khalidi noted that the newcomers, “especially the Ashkenazi Jews,” made no effort “to draw closer” to the Arabs. Moreover, the Jews, who were rich, threatened “to dispossess the Arabs.”

    After the November 2, 1918 Balfour Declaration, more than one hundred Muslim and Christian notables, headed by Musa Kazim al-Husseini, Jerusalem’s mayor, handed the British a petition stating: “We have noticed yesterday a large crowd of Jews carrying banners and over-running the streets shouting words which hurt the feelings and wound the soul. They pretend with open voice that Palestine, which is the Holy Land of our fathers and the graveyard of our ancestors, which has been inhabited by the Arabs for long ages, who loved it and died in defending it, is now a national home for them.” A similar petition was submitted by the Jaffa Muslim-Christian Association; a quasi-political Palestinian nationalist organization established by Christian and Muslim notables in Jaffa to oppose Zionism. Christians were disproportionately represented, probably because they were better educated and more advanced politically (in 1931 literacy among Muslims was about 14 percent, compared with 58 percent among Christians.)

    B. The Nature & Intent of Zionist Immigration to Palestine

    So why did the the native Palestinians object to the Zionist influx and concurrent demographic diminishment? Well, for the same reason you and many others here object to white/European displacement - no-one likes having their ethnicity reduced to a minority in their native lands. Especially when it's foisted upon them by foreign occupiers who had no right making these decisions in the first place. In the case of Palestinians; another factor added to the well of anxiety and fear of displacement: the intent of many (though not all) Zionist leaders of ethnically cleansing them through violent and non-violent means of expulsion - a feat which they were later able to carry out successfully. This was clear to anyone in Palestine at the time but the most naïve and foolish.

    In 1895, Theodor Herzl wrote in his diary: “We must expropriate gently.… We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country.… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” Of course, what was said privately would never be aired publicly by Herzl, lest it cause a PR nightmare for himself and the Zionist movement. Publicly, he wrote to Arab notables such as Yusuf Zia al-Khalidi of Jerusalem that Zionism did not pose a threat of displacement for the Arab inhabitants of Palestine; rather, the arrival of the industrious, talented, well-funded Jews would materially benefit them. All mendacious nonsense of course, which never materialized.

    Some Zionist leaders, such as Yitzhak Epstein and Dr. Nissim Malul, did advocate the route of reconciliation with Arabs under the banner of "Semitic Nationalism". But they were marginalized and ideologically defeated by the "population transfer advocates"; who (rightly) saw ethnic cleansing as the only means of obtaining a Jewish state. Here's Benny Morris describing the consensus of Zionist leaders on what course of action needs to be undertaken to realize their dreams of a Jewish state:


    Recently declassified Zionist documents demonstrate that a virtual consensus emerged among the Zionist leadership, in the wake of the publication in July 1937 of the Peel Commission recommendations, in favor of the transfer of at least several hundred thousand Palestinian Arabs—if not all of them—out of the areas of the Jewish state-to-be. The tone was set by Ben-Gurion himself in June 1938: “I support compulsory transfer. I do not see in it anything immoral.”

    In October 1941 Ben-Gurion set out his thinking on transfer in a memorandum entitled “Outlines of Zionist Policy.” He paid the necessary lip service to the traditional Zionist position on the benefits Jews could bring to Palestine without displacing any Arabs, and how neighboring Arab states could easily absorb all of the country’s Arabs in the event of transfer. But, he wrote: “Complete transfer without compulsion—and ruthless compulsion at that—is hardly imaginable.” Some—Circassians, Druze, Bedouin, Shi’ites, tenant farmers, and landless laborers—could be persuaded to leave. But “the majority of the Arabs could hardly be expected to leave voluntarily within the short period of time which can materially affect our problem.”

     

    Some leaders, such as Ben Gurion, were honest enough to admit that Arabs were justified in their hostility to Jews, considering the ill-intention of Zionists:

    “Were I an Arab, I would rise up against immigration liable sometime in the future to hand the country over to Jewish rule. What Arab cannot do his math and understand that immigration at the rate of 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all Palestine?”

    Ben-Gurion and Sharett never disputed the realities of the revolt, and of the Arab nationalist movement having understandable and perhaps even legitimate fears and grievances. “The Arab fear of our power is intensifying,” Ben-Gurion said on May 19, 1936: “[Arabs] see … exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn’t matter whether or not their view is correct.… They see immigration on a giant scale … they see the Jews fortifying themselves economically.… They see the best lands passing into our hands. They see England identify with Zionism.”105

    The Arabs stridently opposed the Jews’ getting any part of the country they viewed as rightfully theirs, and as sacred Muslim soil. And they feared precisely what Ben-Gurion envisioned—that a small Jewish state would be a springboard for future expansion.

     

    And indeed; considering that native Palestinians were illegitimately being demographically displaced by foreigners with the express intent of ethnically cleansing them off the land; a plan which was later carried out as had been envisioned, I think it's perfectly clear to anyone but the most partisan Israeli that Arabs were justified in "attacking" Jews in 1947. And now back to the UN Partition Plan; another piece of injustice in the Palestinian puzzle.

    C. The Composition & Passing of Resolution 181 Through the UN

    In 1947, the year in which the UN Partition Plan for Palestine was proposed before the General Assembly, Palestine's demographics stood as follows: 1,237,000 Arabs and 608,000 Jews. In percentage terms, Arabs made up 67% of the total population of Palestine; and Jews were a mere 37%. Of those 608,000 Jews; the vast majority were recent immigrants from Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland etc. Many of them were allowed to immigrate on behest of the British occupiers of Palestine; and others were flat-out illegal immigrants. Of the 1,237,000 Arabs, both Muslim and Christian; the vast majority were native-born inhabitants whose ancestors lived there for thousands of years.

    Yet, despite these demographic facts; and the reality that Arabs still owned 93% of the land (Jews owned the other 7%; which they hurriedly purchased in the previous few decades); Arabs were only given 45% of the land under the partition plan, with Jews allocated the rest (55%). Why was such an unjust and lopsided partition plan proposed in the UN? Well it's simple; Jews were adept at diplomacy; had connections with important world players; had the sympathy of much of the world (including Arabs) following the Holocaust; and were consistently backed by President Truman, the de-facto paramount leader of the world following the establishment American supremacy after World War 2.

    Truman, in a heated contest for New York Jewish votes in the upcoming presidential election; gladly acquiesced to Zionist demands that he strong-arm a dozen small nations into voting for the resolution. Greece was threatened with a foreign aid cutoff, Liberia with a rubber embargo. Naturally, powerless nations acquiesced and the resolution passed though the assembly. Benny Morris on the Zionist reaction:


    Resolution 181 was, in some way, “Western civilization’s gesture of repentance for the Holocaust…, the repayment of a debt owed by those nations that realized that they might have done more to prevent or at least limit the scale of Jewish tragedy during World War II.”127

    The Zionists had effectively exploited the unusual situation, in which, for a brief moment, there was Soviet-American agreement on the Palestine problem. Helped to a great extent by the nations’ feeling of guilt about the Holocaust, the Zionists had managed to obtain an international warrant for a small piece of earth for the Jewish people. What remained was for the Jews to translate the formal leasehold into concrete possession and statehood, in war—and for the Palestinians to pay the price.

     

    Then the Arab reaction:

    The Zionists and their supporters rejoiced; the Arabs walked out of the hall after declaring the resolution invalid. They could not fathom, a Palestinian historian was later to write, why 37 percent of the population had been given 55 percent of the land (of which they owned only 7 percent). And “the Palestinians failed to see why they should be made to pay for the Holocaust … they failed to see why it was not fair for the Jews to be a minority in a unitary Palestinian state, while it was fair for almost half of the Palestinian population—the indigenous majority on its own ancestral soil—to be converted overnight into a minority under alien rule.”125
     
    Why Palestinians should give up any of the land which their forefathers had tilled for 5,000 years shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Why Palestinians objected to having some Ottoman and British interlopers make decisions regarding who gets to live in their land shouldn't raise any eyebrows either. Why Palestinians dismiss Zionist concocted, American-backed UN resolutions as illegitimate and unjust should be obvious as well. Why Arabs, who played no part in causing hardship for Jews during World War 2, should pay the price for the Holocaust is a mystery which is yet to be explained by Israeli partisans.

    And thus began the 1947-49 Arab-Israeli War.

    Mind you, i'm glad Arabs didn't win their wars against Israel. It seems probable that an Arab victory would have lead to severe reprisals against Jews. Some of the rhetoric (bluster though it may have been) expressed by some huckster Arab government officials did not leave me with confidence that the defeated would be treated fairly and mercifully. An embarrassing defeat is far better than a shameful genocide, after all. And for all the injustices inflicted on Palestinians; the crimes committed by Zionists are relatively mild compared to other major atrocities during the same time period i.e. the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, the Indo-Pakistan Partition etc.

    One of my best friends grandparents left Jaffa for Egypt during the conflict. Can I say they are worse-off in Egypt than they were in Palestine? Nope; though they were from an elite background, so may not be representative of the Palestinian refugee population at large. The Zionists were also correct in discerning the necessity of population transfer as a means of ensuring a majority-Jewish state. But implying, as I think you did, that Arabs were somehow wrong to attack Israel; or wrong to prevent the dispossession of Palestinians from their ancestral land; is what irritates me to no-end.

    I think (but would happily be corrected) you think Jews are some innocent, poor victims; whose history is one of endless persecutions and attempted massacre by more powerful neighbors. This could be due to your age and upbringing; where the media narrative was of "plucky little Israel" fighting off "the evil Arabs" who won't leave them alone and want to exterminate every last Jew from this planet. Not only is that narrative outdated; it was never reflective of reality in the first place. It was the "plucky little Palestinians"; surrounded and occupied by powerful Empires; minding their own business; when a swarm of hostile Jews swept in with express intent of dispossessing them of their land, to make way for the Jewish State. It is the "plucky little Palestinians" who are too powerless to prevent others from bullying them with their weapons; belittling them with their influence on the media; stripping them of their dignity; and painting them as savages and terrorists whenever they stand up for themselves.

    You want to know who were your childhood biblical heroes? Look no further than these Palestine right here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTeRiAeKJVs&ab_channel=ComunidadPalestinadeChile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJbcF71cyYw&ab_channel=oushaq


    The close relationship of Jews to Palestinians is not surprising. Jews are reputedly a Levantine population by origin, and the historical and genetic evidence points to Arabicization in the Levant and Mesopotamia as having occurred through acculturation, and not population replacement. Many of the upper class Palestinians are likely of original Jewish or Samaritan origin, though I would guess that they were likely at least nominally Christianized during the Byzantine persecutions of the 6th century

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2009/12/09/ashkenazi-jews-are-middle-eastern-european-hybrids/.
     

    Gasp! But Jesus couldn't possibly have been Palestinian, could he? I thought he was a blonde, blue-eyed Russian Jew from New York! Well, no. He was a brown-haired, possibly olive-skinned, but probably Mediterranean white-skinned, Middle Eastern male who looked like your average Palestinian. It's no surprise the oldest Christian communities in the planet are found in today's Arab world: Palestine, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon.

    Replies: @A123, @Dmitry, @iffen

  194. German_reader says:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-chancellor-turned-down-biden-invite-discuss-ukraine-crisis-der-spiegel-2022-01-21/

    German Chancellor Olaf Scholz turned down an invite at short notice from U.S. President Joe Biden to discuss the Ukraine crisis, German magazine Der Spiegel said on Friday.

    Scholz did not accept the invitation due to a full schedule, including a trip to Madrid, as well as the desire to show that he was present as Germany grapples with the COVID-19 pandemic, according to Der Spiegel.

    If this story isn’t fake, I really wonder what’s going on in Scholz’s head…is he totally braindead? If Biden (who for all his faults can’t be accused of being Trump-level deranged in his foreign policy) offers him such talks, why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader


    why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.
     
    Speaking about avoiding responsibility, this was the main theme on Ukrainian talk shows that I viewed last night. Participants were making strong assertions that both Zelensky and the Ukrainian parliament members were ill prepared for any possible Russian advance on the country. All manner of preparations are being swept under the carpet: military, financial, medical, evacuation, etc; Where's the Ukrainian Churchill, they were asking, getting the country prepared for a possible large scale invasion? Zelensky spent the last week vacationing at a ski resort with his oligarch side-kick, Kolomoisky (wth?). He seems more interested in putting Poroshenko out of business with all manner of corruption charges, than working on more important business?.....

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    , @A123
    @German_reader



    German Chancellor Olaf Scholz turned down an invite at short notice from U.S. President Joe Biden to discuss the Ukraine crisis, German magazine Der Spiegel said on Friday.

     

    If this story isn’t fake, I really wonder what’s going on in Scholz’s head…is he totally braindead? If Biden (who for all his faults can’t be accused of being Trump-level deranged in his foreign policy) offers him such talks, why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.
     
    Why would any world leader *want* to attempt conversation with Biden? There is huge down side risk. For example:

    -A- How would Scholz respond if Biden said something highly offensive about Drumpf, and followed it up with "All Germans Are Like That"?

    -B- What happens if confused & combative Biden emerges? Imagine the chaos if he becomes upset, calls Scholz a " lying dog face pony soldier", and unilaterally announces a policy change like "Tariffs on all German goods"?
    _____

    There is no upside to a personal meeting. Given his off script rambles, anything the White House occupant says is likely very different than what his puppet masters have in motion. One cannot forge anything with Not-The-President Biden via direct but incoherent contact.

    Scholz has clearly chosen wisely by avoiding any direct contact with Biden.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    https://theusawire.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/biden_loses_his_marbles.jpg
  195. @Thulean Friend
    Much has been made of the recent gas price increases in Europe lately. Reactionaries claim it's the misguided "green policies" that are at fault. Is that really the case?

    https://i.imgur.com/XXNbqQ5.jpg

    Not really. CO2 taxes account for a minuscule amount of the increase.

    Replies: @A123

    Reactionaries claim it’s the misguided “green policies” that are at fault. Is that really the case?

    Mostly yes.

    The “carbon tax”, at this point, is sneaky wealth redistribution to the Elites, but by itself that is not the problem.

    A larger problem is that heavily subsidized wind and solar is expensive to both consumers and government. Electricity cost must go up as these are added to the mix.

    The largest “green” fiasco is sharply diminishing supply ​by turning off nuclear and reducing coal. This allowed Russia to play silly-buggers on pipe line routes. They cut flows via the existing Yamal pipeline thru Poland in an attempt to extort the startup of NS2. (1)

    According to Slovakian operator Eustream, the average daily volume of gas transfer from Russia between Jan. 1 and 9 had dropped to 54 million cubic meters — half the amount for the same period in 2021. The Yamal pipeline, on the other hand, has not been transferring any gas through Poland at all since the end of December.

    If there had been a surfeit of excess coal and nuclear capacity, Russia’s bad behaviour would have been a foot note. Because Putin targeted a German government inflicted weak spot, there is a crisis this season. Fortunately, the U.S. has significant LNG export capability. Ships have been swung from the Asian market to take advantage of Russia’s proven unreliability as a supplier. (1)

    The increasing amount of American gas on the EU market is knocking down not only the prices of gas but also electricity. In Germany, energy for the upcoming month has become 5 percent cheaper — down to €218 per megawatt hour. In France, the cost decreased by 10 percent down to €287.

    According to Polish government declarations, the contract for gas transfer to Poland, hitherto a key recipient of Russian gas in the region, will not be extended after its expiration at the end of 2022. Russian gas will be replaced by Norwegian gas through the Baltic Pipe.

    One would hope that the Science Deniers pushing green mythology would back down in the face of reality. Sadly, not. The authoritarians in Brussels & Berlin are trying undercut Poland’s sovereignty by targeting their energy supply. (2)

    The European Union’s Fit for 55 directive package foresees an increase of the goal for reducing the emission of greenhouse gasses across EU territory from 40 to 55 percent by 2030. The costs of this ambitious directive will be gigantic for Poland.

    “Compared to current EU regulations, the fulfillment of the new EU climate package will cost Poland around €190 billion more,” warn Pekao SA bank analysts in a report for the Dziennik Gazeta Prawna (DGP) paper.

    When the anti-science crazies lose… They just get crazier. Electricity is a physical reality that cannot be fixed with wind and solar scams.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/poland/us-gas-supply-to-eu-is-5x-higher-than-that-of-russias-gazprom-so-far-in-january/

    (2) https://rmx.news/poland/eu-energy-transformation-will-cost-poland-hundreds-of-billions-of-euros/

  196. @Dmitry
    @Yahya


    prove Edward Said right

     

    This discussion about Said is in circles, as Said's book is based on the theory of Foucault, who is the one who is famous for the sexual minority tourism in Arab world.

    So, you complain about the sexual minority tourism in Arab world, but then say this proves Said's whose theories are invented by the one who is an example of this. .


    I read Said, I wasn’t very receptive of the sort of books he writes or their style of argument
     
    Because this kind of author chooses a narrative. Then they read a lot of literature, and cherry pick some examples in a Jane Austen book, etc, to support this narrative.

    It's another side of things they criticize. And of course, one narrative "postcolonialism" is fashionable since the 1960s in the West, after the colonies were already ended.

    This attitude reminds after you lost a girlfriend, or had to sell you car. "I never liked them anyway". You can see it very strongly in Great Britain's media or culture. They hate losing their British Empire and this is the energy all saturating to their postcolonial views, that criticize any examples they can see of colonialism.


    if these WASPs had a love for all things Arabic; they were still just a bunch of racist

     

    Problem is not racism, but being foreigners from a very different culture, trying to understand Arabs. It's like "Weeaboos" understanding of Japanese.

    When foreigners looked at a culture distant from their one, then they will inevitably not understand many details, and project their emotions to fill the ignorance.

    However, sometimes foreigners can be surprisingly accurate, and see more intuitively in your culture, than local people.

    Ideally, the best view is probably a median distance, though. It's likely that Turks can understand Arab culture accurately. Maybe even Greeks or Italians.

    Even in this forum, for example, LatW (from Latvia) seems to understand more Russia politics, than any of us who were born in Russia. But Americans more have a crazy views about Russia politics in whichever direction (even more often including positive than negative), as they are too distant, and seem to project their local culture.


    Middle East being “more gay” than the Occident
     
    Because distant foreigners don't have enough information usually to interpret local culture accurately.

    For example, among Arabs it's normal for men to hold hands, without romantic connotation. But when Europeans see there, they will interpret differently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtzpQf3O1K4

    Replies: @Mikel, @Mikel

    Just by sheer coincidence this morning I came across this picture of Mo Salah:

    In keeping with the tone of the latest posts, perhaps we could all discuss what he could pass for.

    A gay Spaniard?

    🙂

  197. @iffen
    @Yahya

    And let’s not begin on Israel.

    Why not?

    I would be interested in your explanation as to why the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948.

    Replies: @A123, @Yahya

    I would be interested in your explanation as to why the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948.

    Is it not obvious? Transjordan wanted to establish Muslim Apartheid targeting Jews & Christians on the West Bank.

    Ethnic Cleansing is a part of Jihadi behavior. Look at what they have achieved 1948-present.

     

     

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: Grahamsno(G64)
  198. @German_reader
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-chancellor-turned-down-biden-invite-discuss-ukraine-crisis-der-spiegel-2022-01-21/

    German Chancellor Olaf Scholz turned down an invite at short notice from U.S. President Joe Biden to discuss the Ukraine crisis, German magazine Der Spiegel said on Friday.

    Scholz did not accept the invitation due to a full schedule, including a trip to Madrid, as well as the desire to show that he was present as Germany grapples with the COVID-19 pandemic, according to Der Spiegel.
     

    If this story isn't fake, I really wonder what's going on in Scholz's head...is he totally braindead? If Biden (who for all his faults can't be accused of being Trump-level deranged in his foreign policy) offers him such talks, why doesn't he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123

    why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.

    Speaking about avoiding responsibility, this was the main theme on Ukrainian talk shows that I viewed last night. Participants were making strong assertions that both Zelensky and the Ukrainian parliament members were ill prepared for any possible Russian advance on the country. All manner of preparations are being swept under the carpet: military, financial, medical, evacuation, etc; Where’s the Ukrainian Churchill, they were asking, getting the country prepared for a possible large scale invasion? Zelensky spent the last week vacationing at a ski resort with his oligarch side-kick, Kolomoisky (wth?). He seems more interested in putting Poroshenko out of business with all manner of corruption charges, than working on more important business?…..

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for providing this insight into Ukrainian affairs.
    I'm really baffled by Scholz's behaviour (pathetic to bring up Corona as an excuse), I can only assume he doesn't want to be confronted regarding the NS2 pipeline and economic sanctions against Russia in case of an invasion of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

    , @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Clipping Medvedchuk is okay unlike Poroshenko. The democratic spirit is alive and well.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  199. A question for all of you Ukraine/Russian/Putin experts.

    Why wouldn’t Putin just use Ukraine to “bleed” the West of resources that will be required to prop up Ukraine?

  200. @Dmitry
    @AaronB


    symptoms were mild

     

    You are low risk, as you are a young man, who becomes sick with coronavirus after being vaccinated (you have T cell immunity against virus as a result of vaccine), and we know your concept of "extreme narcotics abuse" is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables.

    This doesn't mean coronavirus is "mass hysteria", as many people have not been experiencing "mild illness" but suffocated in the hospital.


    regarded Covid as primarily a mass hysteria event.

     

    In Russia, coronavirus has killed more than a million citizens. Again, this is not mass hysteria, as the authorities try to avoid reporting bad things, and report about happiness.

    Related to coronavirus, there was last year, the most deaths in Russia than in any year after the Second World War.

    https://i.imgur.com/eOr2PCF.jpg

    Pandemic pushes down life expectancy again to around the same level as it was in 1963, almost 60 years ago.

    https://i.imgur.com/i7K8Zwy.jpg

    It's not a psychological event. A lot of people were killed.


    , bureaucracies, control society, and control the individual, as much as possible, more and more.
     
    Yes, some governments have installed increased control systems over their population (e.g. QR codes) during pandemic. This is perhaps more because they exploited an opportunity, rather than changed pre-existing direction.

    gentrifying neighborhoods.
     
    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader - but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about "terroir". Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class :) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-172/#comment-5098370

    Replies: @AaronB

    Ah, Dmitry trying to ignore the spiritual dimension and reduce everything to technocratic measures 🙂

    Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines 🙂

    But your attitude, Dmitry, illustrates my point – which you seem to have missed.

    I am not denying that Covid has killed people. I am questioning whether our reaction was commensurate with the threat.

    And that is a question of values. Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression? With the loss in social life, the loss in opportunities for friendship and community, for love, for seeing smiles on people’s faces? The demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions? The hysteria?

    Should life be about Safety?

    Those are spiritual questions.

    Dmitry, you are younger than me – in your twenties iirc – and you seem to have led a charmed and sheltered life so far. I am happy for you, truly.

    But as pleasant, intelligent, and charming as you are – and I’m sure you’d make excellent company over dinner – I cannot avoid saying that there seems to be something lacking in you – a kind of spiritual emptiness.

    Not entirely – there are flickers of spirituality in you. But do you not have a sense that there is “more” to life than your materialistic pleasures? And that scientific control is developing in a deeply troubling way?

    Perhaps, also, there is a desire to portray yourself as a debonair 18th century aristocrat in the English style, amused, cool, and unruffled, untroubled by such murky and messy questions as might trouble the soul on a dark night.

    And perhaps you do not yet see the problems with the Official Narrative.

    You are clearly not one of those who is tormented by modernity – suffering is not your role, it seems. Rather, you belong to that category of modern man who lives with a vast emptiness in his life, a chasm of meaninglessness.

    I once read a book about 18th century French aristocrats and their utterly reasonable and rational lives, all amused and aloof – I was 15 at the time, and had come from a richly imaginative childhood – and I remembered emerging with a sense of horror, emptiness, and futility at their vacuous lives.

    I had to read a good fantasy book – I believe it was the excellent Earthsea cycle by Leguin- after that just to cleanse my soul from the horror 🙂

    But I believe, Dmitry, that you are big enough to emerge from this youthful vacuity into something larger im life as you age. Often, our “initiation” into the mysteries of life occur as the result of illness or misfortune – but I do not wish that on you, and hope your emergence from the enchanted slumbers of youth are smoother.

    Honestly, in my 20s I was a Card Carrying member of the Official Narrative – complete and total atheist and full believer in Science. In fact, one of my chief frustrations at the time was how not fully rational – honest – many scientists and rational thinkers were.

    I think it was my very passion for scientific honesty, that made me press onward and see that the assumptions of science, and the world picture it gives us, are not actually proven.

    and we know your concept of “extreme narcotics abuse” is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables

    So here you are not quite correct, I’m afraid.

    I do drink more alcohol then modern science says is healthy.

    I can not drink for weeks, but I can easily go long periods drinking about eight to ten drinks a day – occasionally more.

    But then, I fully believe that the increase in social warmth and joy, sense of connection, more then compensates from any ill health effects.

    In Chan Buddhism, alcohol is sometimes said to be almost as good as reading texts in reaching that non-dual spiritual state 🙂

    As so often, modern medicine treats us as mere bodies, and forgets we are psycho-physical organisms.

    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader – but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about “terroir”. Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class 🙂

    Unfortunately, utu seems to have gotten more curmudgeonly as time went on. He used to have a good spiritual dimension. His panic over Covid and support for the Program of Control suggests he has lost connection to higher things.

    Of course, this is much more likely to happen among today’s elites 🙂 So yes, our good utu is almost certainly of the upper classes.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AaronB

    "Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines 🙂"

    https://lowres.cartooncollections.com/heaven-creation-it_support-turn_it_off_and_on_again-reset-religion-CX904811_low.jpg

    If only?.....

    Glad that you're back. Any chance that you'll be touring the Apache Trail?

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @Dmitry
    @AaronB


    reaction was commensurate with the threat
     
    Imagine you lived in a country, where spread of pandemic was insufficiently reduced before vaccination. Then if you were one of the millions of people who have been killed by coronavirus as a result of this, or was friends/family with them. Obviously you would consider the reaction is insufficient for the threat, let alone the other way round.

    Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression?
     

    It's not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate, and you can be comparing individual decisions, and the country reaction.

    For example, much of the epidemiologically vulnerable peoples' panic was result of failure of their country to manage the pandemic, whereas relaxing on the individual level, was a luxury enjoyable for citizens of countries that adequately managed the situation like Taiwan, New Zealand or Japan.

    If you lived in Australia, even as if you were an epidemiologically vulnerable person, then your reaction can be quite relaxed and unanxious, as the country prevented the pandemic on the society level. Whereas if the same epidemiologically vulnerable person, lived in Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, they are better to individually panic (if they don't want to suffocate in a decaying hospital), as there was not much ability or interest to prevent the pandemic on the country level.


    demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions?
     
    If you live in one of the more authoritarian societies, then the pandemic has been often an opportunity for the government to
    exploit for its pre-existing policy to increase control and surveillance against its "citizens" (probably better to say, "cattle").

    But this is not a problem of "overreaction to the pandemic", but of the lack of oversight, civil rights, information transparency, etc, in these societies.


    untroubled by such murky and messy questions

     

    I will look forward to such murky and messy questions as e.g. UFOs, Tibetan Book of the Dead and whether it is a good idea to bring a bottle of Japanese whiskey, if you would to invite me to this dinner party you seemed to be hinting about.

    he has lost connection to higher things.
     
    These pandemic travel restrictions and tensions with Ukraine have been difficult for many of us. I will pray with you that Rav Utu does not lose his connection to Hashem - ani gam mekaveh sh'hoo yuchal levaker at Uman hashanah 🙏

    Replies: @A123, @AaronB

  201. @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader


    why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.
     
    Speaking about avoiding responsibility, this was the main theme on Ukrainian talk shows that I viewed last night. Participants were making strong assertions that both Zelensky and the Ukrainian parliament members were ill prepared for any possible Russian advance on the country. All manner of preparations are being swept under the carpet: military, financial, medical, evacuation, etc; Where's the Ukrainian Churchill, they were asking, getting the country prepared for a possible large scale invasion? Zelensky spent the last week vacationing at a ski resort with his oligarch side-kick, Kolomoisky (wth?). He seems more interested in putting Poroshenko out of business with all manner of corruption charges, than working on more important business?.....

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    Thanks for providing this insight into Ukrainian affairs.
    I’m really baffled by Scholz’s behaviour (pathetic to bring up Corona as an excuse), I can only assume he doesn’t want to be confronted regarding the NS2 pipeline and economic sanctions against Russia in case of an invasion of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @German_reader

    That's in line with the realities which a number of folks are inclined to overlook.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader

    I came across this interesting article from NPR that I think accurately reflects the opinions of many Ukrainians today regarding the imminent threats seen from Russia:


    Artyom and Marina Kluchnikov have made do raising four children in a cramped, Soviet-style apartment on the outskirts of Ukraine's capital...We do not have like a suitcase with stuff already packed into it," says Artyom, 46. "But I have a checklist so that I would just be ready, you know, if something happens. And I make sure that my car has at least three-quarters of a tank full at any given point in time."...Since 2014, when the conflict began, Artyom and Marina have seen changes in their country. They say Ukrainians have begun to see Russia as an enemy..."We see the lies that Russia tells about us," says Artyom. "We see the death toll of people in the east — you know, how many soldiers died for us. I think it goes to the national memory, I guess. We know the reason for those deaths."...The reason, he says, is Putin, who started the rebellion in the east and has kept it boiling over the last seven years. They hold him responsible for the more than 14,000 dead. Russia also annexed Ukraine's Crimean peninsula in 2014. But Artyom says Putin is getting the opposite of what he wants...Another effect of Russia's aggressive behavior over the better part of the last decade, the Kluchnikovs say, is that many Ukrainians don't want to speak Russian anymore. A recent poll found that more than half of Ukrainians were speaking Ukrainian instead of Russian at home — a change from 30 years ago, when 37% did. Ukraine's close historical ties with Russia make it hard for Marina to be happy about the reasons for this change. "It's a painful issue for me because my father, for instance, he grew up in Russia," she says. "And my great-grandmother, she was a teacher of Russian. I grew up speaking Russian. And I was never against Russia. Never." But today she says she doesn't even speak Russian with her own sister anymore. "Putin has done a lot of good things for establishing a Ukrainian national mentality," he says, laughing. "He's the one who invested so much effort into trying to bring us in. But the only thing that he has done is push us away."
     
    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074723377/ukraine-russia-invasion-fears

    Replies: @Mikhail

  202. @AaronB
    @German_reader

    Tried to use the thanks button but I have not been active enough lately - but thanks.

    Hopefully my priveleges will be restored soon :)

    Far from getting eaten by the fearsome Unz-eating bears, we had a joyful reunion :)

    But I regard the Covid thing increasingly ad on of the major spiritual fault lines of our times, so it's good that more and more people are seeing that there is something deeply, deeply wrong with this situation.

    The first year I was willing to go along with it, because I thought it would soon pass as it was obviously a sociological phenomenon. I even got vaxxed. The second year I grumbled a bit but figured it's almost over.

    Entering the third year, I now see that it isn't a passing fad, but connected to something really deep about our culture, and heralds a major development and extension of the soul killing Program of Control that is destroying us.

    It is clear now Covid restrictions - and more importantly the attitude of fear and control they embody - won't simply fade away as I once thought.

    The time has come for each of us in our own way to resist this culture of control - without hatred, without rancor or violence, and without demonization. I am also against the right wing demonization of people who take the vaccine and agree with the official narrative - they are just fearful people doing their best, and include many if my family members.

    I regard this as primarily a spiritual battle, and only one front in the larger war against the Machine (although I am starting to dislike using military metaphors, but they are useful.)

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Far from getting eaten by the fearsome Unz-eating bears, we had a joyful reunion

    Sheesh, it seems even the Unz-eating bears have succumbed to the general malaise.

    Where are you off to next? I wanna make sure that place gets equipped with some better bears.

    Welcome back.

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @songbird
    @silviosilver

    I like to think that Aaron was eaten by a bear, and when we started talking about dreams on the last thread, that caused one to have dyspepsia, and to regurgitate him whole, with only the insult of the saliva.

    Naturally, he mistook this experience for the Coof.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  203. @AaronB
    On a more positive note, and to escape all that gloom and doom, I am now in southern Arizona, a land of surpassing beauty, and the weather is balmy and mild.

    The beauty here is often surreal and strange - this is the fantasy landscape of Wile E. Coyote and Road Runner, vast canyons, giant cacti, strange plants.

    There is a tree here with vivid, mildly psychedelic green branches. All the plants here have thorns and are trying to kill you lol - there is this one plant that produces these spheres covered in spikes, that fall of the tree, and get blown about by the wind.

    One of these attacking spiky spheres got me in the arm. The genius of these spheres is, that every time you remove one spike, the sphere shifts so that another spike spears you. The spikes have tiny barbs on their ends so aren't easy to remove.

    It took me about ten minutes of playing this painful game to extract the deadly sphere from my arm. I was increasingly panicked, and thinking I'd have to go to the emergency room :) My arm was all bloody after that.

    Well, the moral of the story is, in the desert the plants may be more dangerous than the animals! :) But these deadly plants have a beauty all their own.

    In the early hours of the morning, I am visited by several coyotes, who yip and howl mere feet from my tent. It's thrilling to be so close to them in the darkness! The coyote is a small wolf, but very clever. When they poisoned the wolves with meat in the West, the coyote quickly figured out the trick and continues to thrive lol.

    The coyote has vast mythological importance to the Indians, and just seem like a cool animal to have roaming our wild.

    Of course, when I told an urban friend about the visiting coyotes, he could not see the beauty in it - only, "isn't it dangerous"? :)

    If I may be allowed a small prayer - May we soon emerge from the blindness of our time to a sense of the larger Beauty surrounding us everywhere!

    There are huge desert cliffs right above my campsite, and it is said in one of the canyons lives the only palm tree native to Arizona. The cliffs are home to many big-horned sheep, as well.

    To the Americans here, I just spent a week camping in the Owens Valley by Lone Pine, and it is a place I would urge anyone to visit. It is not particularly remote, yet retains a feeling of windswept remoteness. It has been compared to Tibet, and it is a place of sheer magic.

    The valley is a vast desert plain at around 4,000 feet, with the mighty Sierra Nevada rising skyward to peaks of 14,000, covered in snow. The contrast is startling. There is a vast plain of giant boulders and rocky hills at the base of the mountains - a giants playground.

    I am once again reminded of the beneficence of Nature and our need to connect to it - after a few days or a week, our modern culture begins to appear so trivial, and one begins to feel oneself in the presence of forces much larger than mere humanity.

    We need to connect to the Otherworld - the non-human world. The modern madness comes from being utterly shut up in the world of humanity, and trying to refashion the world in our image. It is a kind of deranged solipsism.

    Sanity will return when we recognize once again we are part of a larger cosmos, and abandon our Program of Control.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard, @Emil Nikola Richard, @songbird, @Barbarossa, @Barbarossa

    I read but cannot find that Lone Pine was the genesis of Ansel Adams’ entire schtick.

    • Thanks: AaronB
  204. Germany’s “support” for Ukraine has been very memeworthy in Eastern Europe. This is the best one

    • LOL: A123
  205. @silviosilver
    @Matra

    They also have this habit of travelling in large groups so it is striking when one sees a dozen or so walking about (speaking Spanish!) and they are all short.
     
    Fair enough. That didn't occur to me. I can't even remember the last time I walked around in a large pack, so I'd sort of forgotten it was even a thing.

    @Dmitry

    If you are a normal height man in Europe, go to Spain and can experience what it is like to be an awkward tall person, looking above the surrounding small dark peoples’ hair.
     
    Matra was talking about seeing them "in European cities," not in Spain itself.

    And "awkward tall" - really? I am 5'11, which is only slightly above average. I've spent a lot of time in Thailand and I would have been taller than most people there, but it certainly never felt "awkward" in any way.

    I guess I don't really pay much attention to height. Maybe it's because, growing up, I was used to being one of the shortest two or three kids in every class until I was like 15, and this experience somehow "imprinted" me, so that now that I'm taller than average I don't really feel it.

    Well, I don't know if that's the actual reason, but it's true that I hardly register it when I am taller than someone. The only exception is one friend I had who was seriously short, and people would sometimes make comments about his shortness and then I would notice that shit, yeah he really is. But even that didn't feel "awkward."

    Replies: @Matra

    Matra was talking about seeing them “in European cities,” not in Spain itself.

    I was referring to tourists from Spain who, presumably, represent a cross section of the country. Foreigners could get a false impression of Italians due to southern Italians – the ones more likely to live abroad – being generally shorter and darker than those in the north. I don’t know what the situation in Spain is: are Cantabrians & Galicians taller and lighter those in Andalusia and even Valencia? I don’t know enough about the country to say.

  206. @AaronB
    @Dmitry

    Ah, Dmitry trying to ignore the spiritual dimension and reduce everything to technocratic measures :)

    Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines :)

    But your attitude, Dmitry, illustrates my point - which you seem to have missed.

    I am not denying that Covid has killed people. I am questioning whether our reaction was commensurate with the threat.

    And that is a question of values. Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression? With the loss in social life, the loss in opportunities for friendship and community, for love, for seeing smiles on people's faces? The demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions? The hysteria?

    Should life be about Safety?

    Those are spiritual questions.

    Dmitry, you are younger than me - in your twenties iirc - and you seem to have led a charmed and sheltered life so far. I am happy for you, truly.

    But as pleasant, intelligent, and charming as you are - and I'm sure you'd make excellent company over dinner - I cannot avoid saying that there seems to be something lacking in you - a kind of spiritual emptiness.

    Not entirely - there are flickers of spirituality in you. But do you not have a sense that there is "more" to life than your materialistic pleasures? And that scientific control is developing in a deeply troubling way?

    Perhaps, also, there is a desire to portray yourself as a debonair 18th century aristocrat in the English style, amused, cool, and unruffled, untroubled by such murky and messy questions as might trouble the soul on a dark night.

    And perhaps you do not yet see the problems with the Official Narrative.

    You are clearly not one of those who is tormented by modernity - suffering is not your role, it seems. Rather, you belong to that category of modern man who lives with a vast emptiness in his life, a chasm of meaninglessness.

    I once read a book about 18th century French aristocrats and their utterly reasonable and rational lives, all amused and aloof - I was 15 at the time, and had come from a richly imaginative childhood - and I remembered emerging with a sense of horror, emptiness, and futility at their vacuous lives.

    I had to read a good fantasy book - I believe it was the excellent Earthsea cycle by Leguin- after that just to cleanse my soul from the horror :)

    But I believe, Dmitry, that you are big enough to emerge from this youthful vacuity into something larger im life as you age. Often, our "initiation" into the mysteries of life occur as the result of illness or misfortune - but I do not wish that on you, and hope your emergence from the enchanted slumbers of youth are smoother.

    Honestly, in my 20s I was a Card Carrying member of the Official Narrative - complete and total atheist and full believer in Science. In fact, one of my chief frustrations at the time was how not fully rational - honest - many scientists and rational thinkers were.

    I think it was my very passion for scientific honesty, that made me press onward and see that the assumptions of science, and the world picture it gives us, are not actually proven.


    and we know your concept of “extreme narcotics abuse” is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables
     
    So here you are not quite correct, I'm afraid.

    I do drink more alcohol then modern science says is healthy.

    I can not drink for weeks, but I can easily go long periods drinking about eight to ten drinks a day - occasionally more.

    But then, I fully believe that the increase in social warmth and joy, sense of connection, more then compensates from any ill health effects.

    In Chan Buddhism, alcohol is sometimes said to be almost as good as reading texts in reaching that non-dual spiritual state :)

    As so often, modern medicine treats us as mere bodies, and forgets we are psycho-physical organisms.

    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader – but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about “terroir”. Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class 🙂
     
    Unfortunately, utu seems to have gotten more curmudgeonly as time went on. He used to have a good spiritual dimension. His panic over Covid and support for the Program of Control suggests he has lost connection to higher things.

    Of course, this is much more likely to happen among today's elites :) So yes, our good utu is almost certainly of the upper classes.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    “Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines 🙂”

    If only?…..

    Glad that you’re back. Any chance that you’ll be touring the Apache Trail?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mr. Hack

    Lol, I enjoyed that :)

    I may have forgotten to tell you, but I did the Apache Trail when I was in this part of the world last year.

    I agree with you that it is an amazing place. My only quibble is that it was too crowded, because it's too close to a major city. And the through road was closed at the high point, so I couldn't do the whole thing.

    I spent one night there sleeping in my car. It was fantastic! Maybe I'll return this trip.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  207. @German_reader
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-chancellor-turned-down-biden-invite-discuss-ukraine-crisis-der-spiegel-2022-01-21/

    German Chancellor Olaf Scholz turned down an invite at short notice from U.S. President Joe Biden to discuss the Ukraine crisis, German magazine Der Spiegel said on Friday.

    Scholz did not accept the invitation due to a full schedule, including a trip to Madrid, as well as the desire to show that he was present as Germany grapples with the COVID-19 pandemic, according to Der Spiegel.
     

    If this story isn't fake, I really wonder what's going on in Scholz's head...is he totally braindead? If Biden (who for all his faults can't be accused of being Trump-level deranged in his foreign policy) offers him such talks, why doesn't he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @A123

    German Chancellor Olaf Scholz turned down an invite at short notice from U.S. President Joe Biden to discuss the Ukraine crisis, German magazine Der Spiegel said on Friday.

    If this story isn’t fake, I really wonder what’s going on in Scholz’s head…is he totally braindead? If Biden (who for all his faults can’t be accused of being Trump-level deranged in his foreign policy) offers him such talks, why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.

    Why would any world leader *want* to attempt conversation with Biden? There is huge down side risk. For example:

    -A- How would Scholz respond if Biden said something highly offensive about Drumpf, and followed it up with “All Germans Are Like That“?

    -B- What happens if confused & combative Biden emerges? Imagine the chaos if he becomes upset, calls Scholz a ” lying dog face pony soldier”, and unilaterally announces a policy change like “Tariffs on all German goods”?
    _____

    There is no upside to a personal meeting. Given his off script rambles, anything the White House occupant says is likely very different than what his puppet masters have in motion. One cannot forge anything with Not-The-President Biden via direct but incoherent contact.

    Scholz has clearly chosen wisely by avoiding any direct contact with Biden.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

  208. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    I’m increasingly of the view that Germany needs unlimited and unchecked power in the EU. American puppets like Lithuania need to be isolated and destroyed.
     
    Germany might be able to bully a small country like Lithuania (and while I'm not in favour of such bullying, imo the Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US). But on an EU level its position isn't strong at all, because France and the Southern Europeans will gang up and try to enforce their vision of "solidarity".
    And the present political class in Germany is so horrible, they shouldn't run anything anyway (you also massively underestimate the amount of transatlanticism in Germany...imo there's more of a chance of France under someone like Zemmour standing up to the US than this deeply neurotic and self-hating country, where anti-Americanism can easily be smeared as crypto-Nazism).

    Good on Russia for going on the offence. NATO membership for Ukraine is all but dead, but why settle for less? You should always maximise your demands in any negotiation.
     
    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia's goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.

    Replies: @LatW

    Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US

    While I agree that it may not have been prudent to go through all that ordeal (and I’ll stop right there, as I won’t be criticizing Lithuania on principle, no matter what they do), I don’t think it’s as straight forward as you say that it was all just “to please America”. We don’t know everything about what really went down there. I do know, however, that in the recent years, prior to Covid and even now, the Lithuanian exports grew (they are the biggest ever this year, in their history), when outreach was done towards China a few years back, it turned out to be very difficult to even get access to their market. These weren’t the usual difficulties of trying to enter a new market (it’s always hard), but there seemed to be more of a pushback. Eventually, at least some Latvian, and I assume Lithuanian companies broke through. Another thing was that Chinese businesses acted rather aggressively towards our businesses on some occasions. Also, my speculation is that if China were to expand uncontrollably, then it would be border states that would probably get the worst of it. But maybe that’s too pessimistic (there is still much to gain).

    And this scandal does have its silver lining for Lithuania – Taiwan wants to share their microchips:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/lithuania-taiwan-china-microchip-windfall-clash/

    on an EU level [Germany’s] position isn’t strong at all

    The position is moderately strong, but, of course, not omnipotent (as a few fundies here seem to imagine, lol). The way I see this relationship, is Germany feeds us and we feed her. But I may be mistaken. Also, countries like Sweden benefit greatly from the EU. The majority of the Baltic banking sector is Swedish owned now (some German, too). Not only are they making bank, they also have transparency of all our cash flows, as well as benefit from the Russian capital that floats around the Baltic States. If push comes to shove, I’d be totally ok with Swedes packing their bags and letting Lithuanian fintechs take over that lucrative market. Anyway, no need to bicker.

    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia’s goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.

    Of course, they want to humiliate NATO, as I said in the other threat, they need one point where to escalate and show that the Article 5 is not working. You don’t need to occupy a country for that, it can be some tiny skirmish somewhere. But you are indeed right that it may go further than that. Those who are not clear about this and believe that “all that Russia is asking is for NATO not to expand further”, should re-read the ultimatum. It’s asking for complete “undressing”, to put it bluntly, or neutralization, of the Eastern Europe. What’s really insulting about it is not even the NATO part, but the fact that they’re demanding we don’t dare defend ourselves even with native forces. For instance, one of the points in the ultimatum states that training in no bigger size than a brigade should only take place in the neighboring states (a brigade is max 5000 troops, that means Latvian and Estonian troops wouldn’t be allowed to train together in any meaningful numbers, while Russia will practice Zapad with Belarus in much larger numbers). So they will threaten our sons from their propaganda channels, but our sons won’t be able to prepare to defend themselves?? This is the kind of stuff where you want to grab a glass and smash it across the wall, but I take it quietly because clearly they must have known that this isn’t going to be accepted from the get go.

    Similarly, will THEY return to the status quo of 1997?

    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could’ve started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don’t know why they did that.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @LatW


    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could’ve started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don’t know why they did that.
     
    I don't know either, Russian intentions in this are opaque to me (thanks for providing more detail about the Russian demands btw). If it isn't a negotiating tactic, I don't know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it's meant for internal propaganda. One certainly can imagine a scenario where it's meant to prepare for an attack on the Baltic states, intended to show NATO's impotence (it's certainly possible that there would be calls not to react with military means, unfortunately I can't exclude that especially in Germany). I hope Putin and his circle aren't quite as far-gone yet that they'd do something like this, but obviously one can't be certain.
    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it's coming from Americans, after all the disasters they've been responsible for in the last 30 years), and I still think it's a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine. But I have to admit there's a lot of naivety (or cynicism, depending on one's perspective) in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members. Unfortunately I don't really see that happening in the foreseeable future.

    Replies: @LatW

  209. @Mr. Hack
    @AaronB

    "Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines 🙂"

    https://lowres.cartooncollections.com/heaven-creation-it_support-turn_it_off_and_on_again-reset-religion-CX904811_low.jpg

    If only?.....

    Glad that you're back. Any chance that you'll be touring the Apache Trail?

    Replies: @AaronB

    Lol, I enjoyed that 🙂

    I may have forgotten to tell you, but I did the Apache Trail when I was in this part of the world last year.

    I agree with you that it is an amazing place. My only quibble is that it was too crowded, because it’s too close to a major city. And the through road was closed at the high point, so I couldn’t do the whole thing.

    I spent one night there sleeping in my car. It was fantastic! Maybe I’ll return this trip.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AaronB

    If you recall, I cautioned you to visit during the weekdays, not the weekends. If you go again tell us about it, including whether or not the high road has been reopened. Good luck no matter where you end up going!

  210. German_reader says:
    @LatW
    @German_reader


    Lithuanians are foolish in picking fights with China just for the sake of pleasing the US
     
    While I agree that it may not have been prudent to go through all that ordeal (and I'll stop right there, as I won't be criticizing Lithuania on principle, no matter what they do), I don't think it's as straight forward as you say that it was all just "to please America". We don't know everything about what really went down there. I do know, however, that in the recent years, prior to Covid and even now, the Lithuanian exports grew (they are the biggest ever this year, in their history), when outreach was done towards China a few years back, it turned out to be very difficult to even get access to their market. These weren't the usual difficulties of trying to enter a new market (it's always hard), but there seemed to be more of a pushback. Eventually, at least some Latvian, and I assume Lithuanian companies broke through. Another thing was that Chinese businesses acted rather aggressively towards our businesses on some occasions. Also, my speculation is that if China were to expand uncontrollably, then it would be border states that would probably get the worst of it. But maybe that's too pessimistic (there is still much to gain).

    And this scandal does have its silver lining for Lithuania - Taiwan wants to share their microchips:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/lithuania-taiwan-china-microchip-windfall-clash/

    on an EU level [Germany's] position isn’t strong at all
     
    The position is moderately strong, but, of course, not omnipotent (as a few fundies here seem to imagine, lol). The way I see this relationship, is Germany feeds us and we feed her. But I may be mistaken. Also, countries like Sweden benefit greatly from the EU. The majority of the Baltic banking sector is Swedish owned now (some German, too). Not only are they making bank, they also have transparency of all our cash flows, as well as benefit from the Russian capital that floats around the Baltic States. If push comes to shove, I'd be totally ok with Swedes packing their bags and letting Lithuanian fintechs take over that lucrative market. Anyway, no need to bicker.

    I doubt Russia will be making any friends with such unacceptable demands, if anything it gives credence to the idea that Russia’s goals might go well beyond preventing NATO expansion to Ukraine, and include humiliating or even destroying the alliance in its existing form.
     
    Of course, they want to humiliate NATO, as I said in the other threat, they need one point where to escalate and show that the Article 5 is not working. You don't need to occupy a country for that, it can be some tiny skirmish somewhere. But you are indeed right that it may go further than that. Those who are not clear about this and believe that "all that Russia is asking is for NATO not to expand further", should re-read the ultimatum. It's asking for complete "undressing", to put it bluntly, or neutralization, of the Eastern Europe. What's really insulting about it is not even the NATO part, but the fact that they're demanding we don't dare defend ourselves even with native forces. For instance, one of the points in the ultimatum states that training in no bigger size than a brigade should only take place in the neighboring states (a brigade is max 5000 troops, that means Latvian and Estonian troops wouldn't be allowed to train together in any meaningful numbers, while Russia will practice Zapad with Belarus in much larger numbers). So they will threaten our sons from their propaganda channels, but our sons won't be able to prepare to defend themselves?? This is the kind of stuff where you want to grab a glass and smash it across the wall, but I take it quietly because clearly they must have known that this isn't going to be accepted from the get go.

    Similarly, will THEY return to the status quo of 1997?

    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could've started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don't know why they did that.

    Replies: @German_reader

    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could’ve started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don’t know why they did that.

    I don’t know either, Russian intentions in this are opaque to me (thanks for providing more detail about the Russian demands btw). If it isn’t a negotiating tactic, I don’t know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it’s meant for internal propaganda. One certainly can imagine a scenario where it’s meant to prepare for an attack on the Baltic states, intended to show NATO’s impotence (it’s certainly possible that there would be calls not to react with military means, unfortunately I can’t exclude that especially in Germany). I hope Putin and his circle aren’t quite as far-gone yet that they’d do something like this, but obviously one can’t be certain.
    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it’s coming from Americans, after all the disasters they’ve been responsible for in the last 30 years), and I still think it’s a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine. But I have to admit there’s a lot of naivety (or cynicism, depending on one’s perspective) in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members. Unfortunately I don’t really see that happening in the foreseeable future.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @German_reader


    If it isn’t a negotiating tactic, I don’t know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it’s meant for internal propaganda.
     
    Internal propaganda, of course, is ever present. Btw, they're still communicating inwardly that it's not their intention to attack unless they're "provoked", they haven't even officially recognized the DNR & LNR, they keep insisting on Minsk (the problem is Minsk cannot realistically be implemented in this form, because the Ukrainian people themselves are against it and will take it to the streets if any leader as little as looks in that direction).

    Hypothetically, it could be some extreme negotiation tactic, although normally they have a lot of behind the scenes conversations (Sullivan met with them a lot before this crisis, there were meetings with Gerasimov, they could decide these things behind closed doors). It might also be a way to demonstrate that they have not accepted the whole post-1991 security arrangement and now want to backtrack it. It partly has to do with the fact that they don't recognize the "Bantustans" (or as they call them around here, the fake and gay countries, lol) as real political actors with real agency. The problem is there are too many bantustans now to be ignored. They took an old school approach from Cold War I - reach out directly to the US. Instead, there should've been some kind of a Russia - Eastern Europe security forum (with the participation of just us and Russia). But we are nobodies in their eyes.


    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it’s coming from Americans, after all the disasters they’ve been responsible for in the last 30 years)
     
    I totally get it. I have similar emotions, usually when there's talk about certain historic topics in the EE (I recently had an American history teacher literally say to me "I don't know that much about Latvia, when I think of Latvia the only thing that comes to my mind is the Einsatzgruppen", with a straight face... no, I get it, but maybe it's better to not say anything at all in that case?), as well as their ridiculous multi-culti roundtables in countries that are super homogenous. It gives me a physical reaction, so I get how you feel (it's just about a different set of questions).

    Maybe it would be better to leave Germany alone at this very moment, this is the peak of the crisis and the peak moment to use the West's leverage, it's better to leave Germany alone instead of diving into these public differences between NATO allies. Focus on those who are ready to act or at least help.

    Just to let you know, btw, the Ukrainians have taken note of the German stance that they don't want to provide weapons because of the historical baggage with Russia. Btw, who knows if it's genuine (probably to some extent) or only a political smokescreen to avoid confrontation with Russia and be able to continue the economic relationship.

    Ukrainians were also prominently involved in the Red army as well as were major victims of German occupation. Every sixth hero of SU during the war was Ukrainian, etc., statistics like that. So there can potentially be another mini-quagmire there although these voices are not too loud.

    I still think it’s a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine
     
    The biggest issue there is not even NATO itself but the very fact that someone else would be deciding for Ukraine. Hypothetically, one should be able to exercise sovereignty in their own home, without outside parties interfering, of course, understanding what the consequences could be. To many Eastern Europeans it seems really absurd that some uncle in Moscow who mentally lives in a different era will decide things for them. The NATO membership, as of right now, is not tangible, so hypothetically Ukraine could just say: "Ok, agreed, we will never accede to NATO, but we'll cooperate directly with various states of our choosing and we will build missiles like Neptune, not to mention that only Ukrainian will be spoken here by 2030 or something like that". Problem solved, right? I don't think so...

    You know, it's looking more and more like given the increasingly complex world landscape individual countries or regional entities might actually need more maneuverability, and large alliances like NATO and the EU may hinder that. These orgs, if they were reformed more in line with what the native people need, could be ok (and some European cooperation is of course needed), but it seems the winds are blowing more in the direction of countries wanting to be able to make sovereign decisions. We're seeing contours of old alliances re-emerge. Like in 1917-18, we have the UK helping EE.

    in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members.
     
    Yes, any self respecting country should have that. If Germany were to re-arm, and you hear gripes about it, just ignore it. You don't owe anything to anybody.

    Replies: @German_reader

  211. @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader


    why doesn’t he take the opportunity and at least try to forge a common position? This is really evading responsibility.
     
    Speaking about avoiding responsibility, this was the main theme on Ukrainian talk shows that I viewed last night. Participants were making strong assertions that both Zelensky and the Ukrainian parliament members were ill prepared for any possible Russian advance on the country. All manner of preparations are being swept under the carpet: military, financial, medical, evacuation, etc; Where's the Ukrainian Churchill, they were asking, getting the country prepared for a possible large scale invasion? Zelensky spent the last week vacationing at a ski resort with his oligarch side-kick, Kolomoisky (wth?). He seems more interested in putting Poroshenko out of business with all manner of corruption charges, than working on more important business?.....

    Replies: @German_reader, @Mikhail

    Clipping Medvedchuk is okay unlike Poroshenko. The democratic spirit is alive and well.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    I'm no big supporter of any of Ukraine's politicians. What's making you wine big alligator tears for the douchebag Medvechuk, anyway?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  212. @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for providing this insight into Ukrainian affairs.
    I'm really baffled by Scholz's behaviour (pathetic to bring up Corona as an excuse), I can only assume he doesn't want to be confronted regarding the NS2 pipeline and economic sanctions against Russia in case of an invasion of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

    That’s in line with the realities which a number of folks are inclined to overlook.

  213. A splendidly excellent January 20 opening Tucker Carlson monologue and follow-up with Douglas Macgregor:

  214. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Clipping Medvedchuk is okay unlike Poroshenko. The democratic spirit is alive and well.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’m no big supporter of any of Ukraine’s politicians. What’s making you wine big alligator tears for the douchebag Medvechuk, anyway?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Your bringing up the matter of interning "douchebag" (seeing how you use that term to describe Medvedchuk) Porky.

    On another matter you raise, Serhiy Kudelia (who you might know of) said from Lviv, that most Ukrainians don't expect a Russian attack.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  215. @AaronB
    @Mr. Hack

    Lol, I enjoyed that :)

    I may have forgotten to tell you, but I did the Apache Trail when I was in this part of the world last year.

    I agree with you that it is an amazing place. My only quibble is that it was too crowded, because it's too close to a major city. And the through road was closed at the high point, so I couldn't do the whole thing.

    I spent one night there sleeping in my car. It was fantastic! Maybe I'll return this trip.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    If you recall, I cautioned you to visit during the weekdays, not the weekends. If you go again tell us about it, including whether or not the high road has been reopened. Good luck no matter where you end up going!

    • Thanks: AaronB
  216. We need to go back to Europe of the 1910s, before WWI, only without the Baedekers.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    That might not be enough to remove all the liberal influence of the Enlightenment, you need to look at Pol Pot as the only example of successful de-bourgeoisization and de-modernization. Mao tried to do this by sending students to the field en masse, but it was reversed a few years later.

    Replies: @songbird

  217. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Slavic identity is today, a language/culture identity, rather than a racial identity, as slavic tribes have obviously more assimilated rather than exterminated their neighbors across history.

    E.g. Some southslavic nationalities will probably mainly be descended from the more ancient nationalities of the region, considering their appearance. Those ancient peoples' descendants are likely still not far from their homelands today.

    -

    By the way, our Ukrainian friends today include a wide mix of appearances, not only the Northern European appearance. A lot of them could be successfully pretending to be Romanians, Bessarabian Jews, Hungarians, etc.

    E.g. here are the multinational appearances of school graduates in Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoBw-ntJGrI

    Replies: @Mikhail, @silviosilver, @AP

    The school is in Zaporozhia in southern Ukraine (according to the comments). Ukrainians tend to get darker the further south one goes.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @AP

    If you have time, look up the one Iryna Vereshchuk (I don't want to post her pics here). She has an interesting look of a Nordid Slav. From what I understand, she's also not short.

    Replies: @AP

  218. @German_reader
    @LatW


    If, as you said above, they wanted to use this as a negotiating tactic, start out big and hope for reasonable concessions from the other party, they could’ve started with something more reasonable, not such blatantly unacceptable things. I don’t know why they did that.
     
    I don't know either, Russian intentions in this are opaque to me (thanks for providing more detail about the Russian demands btw). If it isn't a negotiating tactic, I don't know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it's meant for internal propaganda. One certainly can imagine a scenario where it's meant to prepare for an attack on the Baltic states, intended to show NATO's impotence (it's certainly possible that there would be calls not to react with military means, unfortunately I can't exclude that especially in Germany). I hope Putin and his circle aren't quite as far-gone yet that they'd do something like this, but obviously one can't be certain.
    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it's coming from Americans, after all the disasters they've been responsible for in the last 30 years), and I still think it's a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine. But I have to admit there's a lot of naivety (or cynicism, depending on one's perspective) in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members. Unfortunately I don't really see that happening in the foreseeable future.

    Replies: @LatW

    If it isn’t a negotiating tactic, I don’t know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it’s meant for internal propaganda.

    Internal propaganda, of course, is ever present. Btw, they’re still communicating inwardly that it’s not their intention to attack unless they’re “provoked”, they haven’t even officially recognized the DNR & LNR, they keep insisting on Minsk (the problem is Minsk cannot realistically be implemented in this form, because the Ukrainian people themselves are against it and will take it to the streets if any leader as little as looks in that direction).

    Hypothetically, it could be some extreme negotiation tactic, although normally they have a lot of behind the scenes conversations (Sullivan met with them a lot before this crisis, there were meetings with Gerasimov, they could decide these things behind closed doors). It might also be a way to demonstrate that they have not accepted the whole post-1991 security arrangement and now want to backtrack it. It partly has to do with the fact that they don’t recognize the “Bantustans” (or as they call them around here, the fake and gay countries, lol) as real political actors with real agency. The problem is there are too many bantustans now to be ignored. They took an old school approach from Cold War I – reach out directly to the US. Instead, there should’ve been some kind of a Russia – Eastern Europe security forum (with the participation of just us and Russia). But we are nobodies in their eyes.

    [MORE]

    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it’s coming from Americans, after all the disasters they’ve been responsible for in the last 30 years)

    I totally get it. I have similar emotions, usually when there’s talk about certain historic topics in the EE (I recently had an American history teacher literally say to me “I don’t know that much about Latvia, when I think of Latvia the only thing that comes to my mind is the Einsatzgruppen”, with a straight face… no, I get it, but maybe it’s better to not say anything at all in that case?), as well as their ridiculous multi-culti roundtables in countries that are super homogenous. It gives me a physical reaction, so I get how you feel (it’s just about a different set of questions).

    Maybe it would be better to leave Germany alone at this very moment, this is the peak of the crisis and the peak moment to use the West’s leverage, it’s better to leave Germany alone instead of diving into these public differences between NATO allies. Focus on those who are ready to act or at least help.

    Just to let you know, btw, the Ukrainians have taken note of the German stance that they don’t want to provide weapons because of the historical baggage with Russia. Btw, who knows if it’s genuine (probably to some extent) or only a political smokescreen to avoid confrontation with Russia and be able to continue the economic relationship.

    Ukrainians were also prominently involved in the Red army as well as were major victims of German occupation. Every sixth hero of SU during the war was Ukrainian, etc., statistics like that. So there can potentially be another mini-quagmire there although these voices are not too loud.

    I still think it’s a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine

    The biggest issue there is not even NATO itself but the very fact that someone else would be deciding for Ukraine. Hypothetically, one should be able to exercise sovereignty in their own home, without outside parties interfering, of course, understanding what the consequences could be. To many Eastern Europeans it seems really absurd that some uncle in Moscow who mentally lives in a different era will decide things for them. The NATO membership, as of right now, is not tangible, so hypothetically Ukraine could just say: “Ok, agreed, we will never accede to NATO, but we’ll cooperate directly with various states of our choosing and we will build missiles like Neptune, not to mention that only Ukrainian will be spoken here by 2030 or something like that”. Problem solved, right? I don’t think so…

    You know, it’s looking more and more like given the increasingly complex world landscape individual countries or regional entities might actually need more maneuverability, and large alliances like NATO and the EU may hinder that. These orgs, if they were reformed more in line with what the native people need, could be ok (and some European cooperation is of course needed), but it seems the winds are blowing more in the direction of countries wanting to be able to make sovereign decisions. We’re seeing contours of old alliances re-emerge. Like in 1917-18, we have the UK helping EE.

    in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members.

    Yes, any self respecting country should have that. If Germany were to re-arm, and you hear gripes about it, just ignore it. You don’t owe anything to anybody.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @LatW


    I recently had an American history teacher literally say to me “I don’t know that much about Latvia, when I think of Latvia the only thing that comes to my mind is the Einsatzgruppen”, with a straight face… no, I get it, but maybe it’s better to not say anything at all in that case?), as well as their ridiculous multi-culti roundtables in countries that are super homogenous.
     
    imo perception of Latvia and Lithuania as countries of Jew-killing Nazi collaborators is definitely prominent in Western perceptions. And of course there's an expectation that you have to show proper contrition and deconstruct your national narratives (so not just see yourself as victims of Soviet aggression, but perhaps more as ex-perpetrators who have now learned proper Western/European values...this also is a factor in the multi-culti roundtables...your countries aren't expected to stay homogenous). And tbh that's a large reason why I'm ambivalent about this whole NATO-Russia situation. I don't identify with what passes as Western values today, and I believe national-minded Eastern Europeans should be wary of the West. The Western liberals who are eager for confronting Russia are so for rather different reasons than you (and they're also not really serious imo).


    Just to let you know, btw, the Ukrainians have taken note of the German stance that they don’t want to provide weapons because of the historical baggage with Russia. Btw, who knows if it’s genuine (probably to some extent) or only a political smokescreen to avoid confrontation with Russia and be able to continue the economic relationship.
     
    It's both. Certainly there are economic factors (and creating that level of energy dependence on Russia was definitely a mistake). However imo the "cynical Germany only cares about business" interpretation is one-dimensional, the WW2 legacy does play a factor. I think many Germans do feel a certain reservation in confronting Russia, because of the German atrocities in the war, and a desire for German-Russian reconciliation (and tbh, these feelings of guilt and contrition are usually encouraged by our Western partners, so it's a bit strange when they suddenly want them to be switched off). Now of course you could argue Germany also owes Ukrainians (or even to a greater degree, I know people like Timothy Snyder make such arguments), but there's great reluctance to insert oneself into what could be seen as a fraternal struggle between two closely related peoples, all the more so since Germany in WW2 tried to exploit the divisions between Russians and Ukrainians.
    More prosaically, there might also be simply a desire not to mess with Russia, because the last time we did that, it ended very badly. Americans and other Westerners underestimate the extent to which the war against the Soviet Union was the central part of WW2 for Germans (and Soviet Union is usually equated with Russia). All of my German relatives who took part in WW2 were on the eastern front, and half of them died in the war. That background doesn't encourage a desire for conflict with Russia.

    The biggest issue there is not even NATO itself but the very fact that someone else would be deciding for Ukraine. Hypothetically, one should be able to exercise sovereignty in their own home, without outside parties interfering
     
    Sure, but there's the factor that Ukraine has a very large population that is Russian in speech and (probably) sentiment, so restrictive language policies and the like are bound to lead to internal strife that can be exploited by Russia (and they're also incompatible with the liberal values Western states profess to believe in).
    But I see your point, it's of course far from clear whether Russia would even be willing to tolerate a meaningfully sovereign Ukraine, even if were guaranteed that Ukraine would stay neutral and not join NATO.

    Like in 1917-18, we have the UK helping EE.
     
    Britain in 1917/18 was a great power and a serious country. I don't think the same can be said today (and on present trends Britain in any recognizable form of course has a expiration date within the next few decades).

    Replies: @LatW

  219. @AP
    @Dmitry

    The school is in Zaporozhia in southern Ukraine (according to the comments). Ukrainians tend to get darker the further south one goes.

    Replies: @LatW

    If you have time, look up the one Iryna Vereshchuk (I don’t want to post her pics here). She has an interesting look of a Nordid Slav. From what I understand, she’s also not short.

    • Replies: @AP
    @LatW

    She is from a mall town north of Lviv (I don't mind posting a picture):

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ad9oJ3ck5E4/maxresdefault.jpg

    Replies: @Mikhail

  220. @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Thanks!

    So I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun :) Although I really do have a special fondness for the desert.

    However, I did spend Christmas with family in the Sierras during that big snowstorm we just had - three days without power, it was great. Snow was I think 7 feet deep in places.

    I had a fantastic time and it really made me want to try winter camping! It was a delicious experience, to take a few swills of good whiskey and head out to wander the winter woods, all quiet and mysterious under a blanket of snow :)

    It's a special experience of silence and mystery, that I now see is unique - it has whetted my appetite!

    I also spent a week in the Owens Valley, where the nights were freezing and the days in the fifties. Not quite winter, but I enjoyed it's slightly wintery feel - the giant Sierras right above my tent covered in snow - and look back upon it fondly from my current place in the desert.

    Yet the awesome desert scenery also has a deep claim on my heart!

    Well, I am hoping to make this trip longer than previous ones, so after I sate my soul with the mysteries of the desert, I hope to finally try communing with the silent mysteries of the snow.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Sorry, I had missed your recount of your camping activities in Arizona.

    Due to the special treatment received by your comments, one needs to remember to look upthread sporadically when you’re around.

    I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun

    Nothing to be ashamed of at all. What good is it to have these wonderful regions of benign sunny weather if we are not going to enjoy them when the sun is in short supply everywhere else?

    Besides, camping in the Owens Valley in winter is no laughing matter. It gets cold there at night. I saw that the end of year snowfalls reached that region, at least up to Bishop.

    I agree that it is a desolate but beautiful place between the High Sierras and the Death Valley. In mid July, when the heat is at its most unbearable, they organize a very crazy ultramarathon from the scorching depth of Death Valley at Badwater to the footsteps of the Mount Whitney (the lowest and highest points of the contiguous US). Apparently, some people have made it all the way to the top of the peak but now the ascent to this mountain is restricted.

    When I heard about this race I planned to enrol and give it a try but there was no way they would have allowed me to participate. You need to show experience in this sort of marathons and I cannot really document any of my crazy adventures.

    Anyway, if you have the time and proper gear, you may enjoy a short winter camping trip above the snowline. Northern Arizona, especially the Flagstaff area, gets plenty of snow this time of the year. I think that experiencing the elements during wintertime is very much in line with your idea that life is not about seeking permanent comfort and security, which I totally agree with. I certainly get a good high every time the snow season returns when I go up there and experience the new cycle of nature, immutable and unforgiving. But maybe it’s just my eccentric self. Be careful whatever you do.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikel

    I agree, I don't remember Aaron sharing his Arizona camping experiences with us (I mean he could have, but it looks like we both missed it). The forecast is for another 1-3 inches of snow tonight in the
    Flagstaff area...

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @AaronB
    @Mikel


    Sorry, I had missed your recount of your camping activities in Arizona.

    Due to the special treatment received by your comments, one needs to remember to look upthread sporadically when you’re around.
     
    Ah yes. I consider that a special honor from Mr Unz - clearly, he wants to be the first to read my comments, and make sure he doesn't miss a single one, so he puts me in moderation subject to his personal review :)

    Yes, we are lucky to have in our own country these sunny winter climes, and spectacular deserts. One of the perks of spanning a continent I suppose.

    That race sounds amazing! What a cool idea, from the lowest point to the highest - but it sounds brutal also. They should offer some kind of fitness test to those interested, it's too bad you can't do it.

    You know, I realized from my trip to Wyoming that I already do cold weather camping - the nights and mornings in the high country there is in the 20s even in summer.

    Snow is an added factor, and the day won't warm up, but it isn't so formidable.

    I hear you that winter camping in the snow is a wonderful way to enjoy the pleasures of not prioritizing comfort and safety, as the modern world does :)

    Flagstaff area sounds interesting, although I'm returning to family in the Sierras in a few weeks, so I may look for something in those mountains.

    Its definitely on the agenda - Enjoy your winter mountain activities as much as you can!

    Replies: @Mikel

  221. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    I'm no big supporter of any of Ukraine's politicians. What's making you wine big alligator tears for the douchebag Medvechuk, anyway?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Your bringing up the matter of interning “douchebag” (seeing how you use that term to describe Medvedchuk) Porky.

    On another matter you raise, Serhiy Kudelia (who you might know of) said from Lviv, that most Ukrainians don’t expect a Russian attack.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody's care or concern about him or his whereabouts?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  222. I am trying to imaginatively enter the minds of the Woke and understand the allure of this way of thinking. It’s easy to simply dismiss it as insane or evil, but that’s too facile. Many good people find this philosophy powerfully attractive.

    I was watching the 2006 movie Stardust with my young nieces, an excellent fantasy film btw, and they loved the scene where Robert Deniro is outed as a gay crossdresser. Their eyes lit up and they applauded.

    Now, I have no problem with gays and think the old traditional attitudes to gays were barbaric and in dire need of reform, but the modern celebration of gayness has I believe a special philosophic significance.

    Clearly, modern man experiences the “natural order” as an intolerable constraint, and thinks happiness lies in breaking free of it’s “shackles”. Hence science, the project to dominate nature, transgender, etc.

    So far so good.

    But why is that, when I find my delight, my deepest peace and sense of home, precisely in nature?

    I have for a long time been attracted to philosophies like Taoism which basically say there is a “way” in the universe that we find our deepest happiness and freedom in following. I have found this experientally true on so deep a level that I can no longer question it – yet for most of my youth, like every modern, I rebelled against it. Yet this attitude is diametrically opposed to modernity.

    Clearly, the modern project of not following the “way” of nature is leading to societal breakdown, and insanity, dysphoria, and deep unhappiness.

    What I did not mention above, is that those very nieces, who are now mildly Woke, all suffer from severe mental illness – OCD, phobias, dysphoria, and eating disorders – partly brought on by growing up with allergies, but largely imo by their philosophy of life.

    Yet why are we convinced, that the very thing that will save us – a “fitting in” with the universe or Way of nature rather than revolting against it – is actually the source of our problems?

    I have begun to think a large part of it is the way our culture has taught us to think of these issues. Words like acceptance, limits, constraint, etc, are all used to depict the attitude of going along with nature. But those are dreary words.

    One might describe it as the exhilarating feeling of being connected to a larger whole, the peace and sense of homecoming one feels at taking up ones true place in the cosmos, the sense of magic and mystery one feels when one sees oneself as part of a larger fabric, the sense of safety and “rightness” one feels.

    Yet even religious writers use the language of constraint. Jesus said pick up your Cross and follow me – now of course he meant a social cross, because he knew that the social order will persecute anyone who questions the project of control and domination. And I believe he, or was it Paul, who said following his Way us a light and easy burden – which of course, since it’s no longer a quest for domination, is quite true.

    In Zen and Taoism, enormous effort is made to create this feeling of “Oneness” with nature, connection, relationship, and co-identity, because that eliminates the feeling of constraint, and replaces it with a feeling of exhilarating freedom.

    The old religious message – that one finds happiness by following the Way of the cosmos fitting in with a larger fabric rather than fighting it – is still the only truth that will save us.

    We don’t need new myths. The old stories are correct. But perhaps we need new language? Or rather, better emphases.

    But I think there is more to the mystery – what modern habits of thought or life, sustain is in this delusion that rebelling against the way of nature will bring us happiness, and obscure to us so obvious a truth?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AaronB

    Alan Watts used to make the excellent point that the West thinks of nature as having "laws", because Western religion was modeled after those Near Eastern despotisms, and adopted much of the imagery of the court.

    Watts pointed out they are only "laws" if you experience them as external compulsions - however, it's possible to take a wholly different approach, that you are willingly cooperating with them. They are no longer "laws".

    But to willingly follow the Way if nature without feeling it as an external compulsions, would mean we would have y cultivate a feeling of participation in nature - a sense of relationship and identity with it.

    No longer seeing ourselves as independent and seperate specks, but as co-participants.

    But this would require a complete imaginative revolution.....

  223. German_reader says:
    @LatW
    @German_reader


    If it isn’t a negotiating tactic, I don’t know what its purpose is, since those demands are obviously completely unacceptable, and Russia must know this. The only other explanation I can think of is that it’s meant for internal propaganda.
     
    Internal propaganda, of course, is ever present. Btw, they're still communicating inwardly that it's not their intention to attack unless they're "provoked", they haven't even officially recognized the DNR & LNR, they keep insisting on Minsk (the problem is Minsk cannot realistically be implemented in this form, because the Ukrainian people themselves are against it and will take it to the streets if any leader as little as looks in that direction).

    Hypothetically, it could be some extreme negotiation tactic, although normally they have a lot of behind the scenes conversations (Sullivan met with them a lot before this crisis, there were meetings with Gerasimov, they could decide these things behind closed doors). It might also be a way to demonstrate that they have not accepted the whole post-1991 security arrangement and now want to backtrack it. It partly has to do with the fact that they don't recognize the "Bantustans" (or as they call them around here, the fake and gay countries, lol) as real political actors with real agency. The problem is there are too many bantustans now to be ignored. They took an old school approach from Cold War I - reach out directly to the US. Instead, there should've been some kind of a Russia - Eastern Europe security forum (with the participation of just us and Russia). But we are nobodies in their eyes.


    I think a certain kind of criticism of Germany is unfair (and I really resent it when it’s coming from Americans, after all the disasters they’ve been responsible for in the last 30 years)
     
    I totally get it. I have similar emotions, usually when there's talk about certain historic topics in the EE (I recently had an American history teacher literally say to me "I don't know that much about Latvia, when I think of Latvia the only thing that comes to my mind is the Einsatzgruppen", with a straight face... no, I get it, but maybe it's better to not say anything at all in that case?), as well as their ridiculous multi-culti roundtables in countries that are super homogenous. It gives me a physical reaction, so I get how you feel (it's just about a different set of questions).

    Maybe it would be better to leave Germany alone at this very moment, this is the peak of the crisis and the peak moment to use the West's leverage, it's better to leave Germany alone instead of diving into these public differences between NATO allies. Focus on those who are ready to act or at least help.

    Just to let you know, btw, the Ukrainians have taken note of the German stance that they don't want to provide weapons because of the historical baggage with Russia. Btw, who knows if it's genuine (probably to some extent) or only a political smokescreen to avoid confrontation with Russia and be able to continue the economic relationship.

    Ukrainians were also prominently involved in the Red army as well as were major victims of German occupation. Every sixth hero of SU during the war was Ukrainian, etc., statistics like that. So there can potentially be another mini-quagmire there although these voices are not too loud.

    I still think it’s a mistake to hold out the prospect of NATO membership to Ukraine
     
    The biggest issue there is not even NATO itself but the very fact that someone else would be deciding for Ukraine. Hypothetically, one should be able to exercise sovereignty in their own home, without outside parties interfering, of course, understanding what the consequences could be. To many Eastern Europeans it seems really absurd that some uncle in Moscow who mentally lives in a different era will decide things for them. The NATO membership, as of right now, is not tangible, so hypothetically Ukraine could just say: "Ok, agreed, we will never accede to NATO, but we'll cooperate directly with various states of our choosing and we will build missiles like Neptune, not to mention that only Ukrainian will be spoken here by 2030 or something like that". Problem solved, right? I don't think so...

    You know, it's looking more and more like given the increasingly complex world landscape individual countries or regional entities might actually need more maneuverability, and large alliances like NATO and the EU may hinder that. These orgs, if they were reformed more in line with what the native people need, could be ok (and some European cooperation is of course needed), but it seems the winds are blowing more in the direction of countries wanting to be able to make sovereign decisions. We're seeing contours of old alliances re-emerge. Like in 1917-18, we have the UK helping EE.

    in the public debate in Germany, there definitely should be a massive effort to build up military capabilities again, to at least provide credible deterrence for existing NATO members.
     
    Yes, any self respecting country should have that. If Germany were to re-arm, and you hear gripes about it, just ignore it. You don't owe anything to anybody.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I recently had an American history teacher literally say to me “I don’t know that much about Latvia, when I think of Latvia the only thing that comes to my mind is the Einsatzgruppen”, with a straight face… no, I get it, but maybe it’s better to not say anything at all in that case?), as well as their ridiculous multi-culti roundtables in countries that are super homogenous.

    imo perception of Latvia and Lithuania as countries of Jew-killing Nazi collaborators is definitely prominent in Western perceptions. And of course there’s an expectation that you have to show proper contrition and deconstruct your national narratives (so not just see yourself as victims of Soviet aggression, but perhaps more as ex-perpetrators who have now learned proper Western/European values…this also is a factor in the multi-culti roundtables…your countries aren’t expected to stay homogenous). And tbh that’s a large reason why I’m ambivalent about this whole NATO-Russia situation. I don’t identify with what passes as Western values today, and I believe national-minded Eastern Europeans should be wary of the West. The Western liberals who are eager for confronting Russia are so for rather different reasons than you (and they’re also not really serious imo).

    [MORE]

    Just to let you know, btw, the Ukrainians have taken note of the German stance that they don’t want to provide weapons because of the historical baggage with Russia. Btw, who knows if it’s genuine (probably to some extent) or only a political smokescreen to avoid confrontation with Russia and be able to continue the economic relationship.

    It’s both. Certainly there are economic factors (and creating that level of energy dependence on Russia was definitely a mistake). However imo the “cynical Germany only cares about business” interpretation is one-dimensional, the WW2 legacy does play a factor. I think many Germans do feel a certain reservation in confronting Russia, because of the German atrocities in the war, and a desire for German-Russian reconciliation (and tbh, these feelings of guilt and contrition are usually encouraged by our Western partners, so it’s a bit strange when they suddenly want them to be switched off). Now of course you could argue Germany also owes Ukrainians (or even to a greater degree, I know people like Timothy Snyder make such arguments), but there’s great reluctance to insert oneself into what could be seen as a fraternal struggle between two closely related peoples, all the more so since Germany in WW2 tried to exploit the divisions between Russians and Ukrainians.
    More prosaically, there might also be simply a desire not to mess with Russia, because the last time we did that, it ended very badly. Americans and other Westerners underestimate the extent to which the war against the Soviet Union was the central part of WW2 for Germans (and Soviet Union is usually equated with Russia). All of my German relatives who took part in WW2 were on the eastern front, and half of them died in the war. That background doesn’t encourage a desire for conflict with Russia.

    The biggest issue there is not even NATO itself but the very fact that someone else would be deciding for Ukraine. Hypothetically, one should be able to exercise sovereignty in their own home, without outside parties interfering

    Sure, but there’s the factor that Ukraine has a very large population that is Russian in speech and (probably) sentiment, so restrictive language policies and the like are bound to lead to internal strife that can be exploited by Russia (and they’re also incompatible with the liberal values Western states profess to believe in).
    But I see your point, it’s of course far from clear whether Russia would even be willing to tolerate a meaningfully sovereign Ukraine, even if were guaranteed that Ukraine would stay neutral and not join NATO.

    Like in 1917-18, we have the UK helping EE.

    Britain in 1917/18 was a great power and a serious country. I don’t think the same can be said today (and on present trends Britain in any recognizable form of course has a expiration date within the next few decades).

    • Replies: @LatW
    @German_reader


    I don’t identify with what passes as Western values today, and I believe national-minded Eastern Europeans should be wary of the West.
     
    They are. They're having to fight off two sides. My point, though, was that we all can find certain things to gripe about Americans. I'm not saying we shouldn't deconstruct or simply reject these narratives / pseudo-values, but, Americans or no Americans, the security issue has to be objectively solved. It's just because you are safely tucked away, surrounded by endless buffers, that you view this differently. If you were situated on the border with Russia, you would just be another Ukrainian. And by the way... history teaches us that just laying down trying to appease the aggressor doesn't mean that you won't be crushed anyway. If that were the case, nothing would be easier on this planet, have a 0% military budget and just lay under him. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. If it worked, we may have already done it.



    That said, of course, I do understand Germany's position. I totally get it that it doesn't make sense to try to participate in some ways and then be screamed at because "armed Germans are once again on Russia's border". It's just not worth it. To everything you mentioned as reasons, I can also add that Germany doesn't really have any serious roots there (with the exception of Crimean Goths and the Black Sea Germans). Some towns in Ukraine were founded and cultivated by Lithuanians and Poles, so certainly they have more vicinity there in that sense. What's more, it looks like only natural (geographic) allies will now count. This should also be taken into account when doling out chernozem in the future.

    Britain in 1917/18 was a great power and a serious country. I don’t think the same can be said today (and on present trends Britain in any recognizable form of course has a expiration date within the next few decades).
     
    Yes, but Britain is strong now (I'd still call it rather serious), and will be for a few decades. Hopefully, that will give us some time to regroup.

    it’s of course far from clear whether Russia would even be willing to tolerate a meaningfully sovereign Ukraine, even if were guaranteed that Ukraine would stay neutral and not join NATO.
     
    No, as I stated already. Ukraine doesn't have agency in Russia's eyes in this form, they call it "nedogosudarstvo" - "half a*s state" or "an entity that hasn't managed to reach the status of a real state". In its current what they subjectively perceived "Russophobic" state it won't be tolerated (whether that means invasion or just animosity, is hard to say). Not with missiles that can hit not only Rostov or Belgorod, but possibly further (not that Ukrainians would ever try that, they just want to defend their own soil).

    But the truth is that Ukrainians always spoke their own language (even Kharkiv was Ukrainian speaking before the war), and they have always defended their country. Nothing has changed, except that Ukrainization is now spreading to formerly Russified areas (it is essentially "re-Ukrainization", return to the previous status). Not even physical space, but people themselves (for example, many TV personalities switched to Ukrainian, and very easily, meaning that they knew it to begin with, just weren't using it at the time).

    Anyway, I don't want to inundate you with Slavic issues... but... there is one poster on Quora who tackles these things from the Russian perspective very well (Dima Vorobiev). It's some Russian dude with what looks like a minor CheKa past, he's quite accurate and brutally honest about things. I'm not saying I like what he says, but he has great insights. This is what he wrote about Ukraine in December 2021. There are amazing admissions by a Russian himself such as that Ukraine is needed for Russian nation-building (!!) and that losing it leaves a cultural void (that one I agree with). And it turns out Kazachok is a Ukrainian dance that stems from Greek dancing, lol. :)

    “Why would Russia want Ukraine?”

    So far, President Putin has shown no particular signs of wanting Ukraine. The place is too big and too messy. The sheer expense of occupying it would eat maybe all of Putin’s war chest.

    However, ahead of the Crimea annexation, our President didn’t show any plans of taking it either. With his tactical genius, we simply never know before things happen. In case our President changes his mind tomorrow on making Ukraine a part of Russia, there are three main reasons for why our nation will support him.

    1. Strategic depth

    The shortest way for the two most traumatizing foreign invasions in our imperial history—Napoleon’s and Hitler’s—was through Poland and Belorussia. Annexing Ukraine won’t change it. But it would be nice to be in a position to ruin the next European invasion by cutting them short from south. We broke the back of the Swedes in Poltava, after all.

    Also, most of the Ukrainians now turned out to be a nation of Russophobes. Having Ukrainian tanks barely a day’s march away from the Kremlin is a bit unnerving. Their army is a mess of course—but during WW2, every sixth Hero of the Soviet Union was an ethnic Ukrainian. The Turks, becoming part of NATO, built a formidable army that even Putin didn’t dare to challenge in Syria. If the Ukrainians one day also put their ducks in a row, with NATO behind them, this could be a game changer.

    2. Nation-building

    As Russia is now trying to define itself as a modern nation-state, we keep butting our head against a little-noticed but considerable challenge.

    As a matter of fact, Russia became an empire in the 18th century with Ukraine as a significant part of it. When Ukraine is gone, with a huge chunk of our history and territory, where does this leave us?

    President Putin recently verbalized this conundrum, saying on another occasion (Chechnya), “Do yo want us to become Muscovy?” The thing is, without Ukraine Russia is shrunk towards what were our pre-imperial territories. That is, Muscovy. This makes a dent in our new-found pride of “Russia having risen up from its knees”. Mind you, Ukraine, we never forgive and never forget!

    3. Cultural void

    With the entire corpus of Ukrainian old culture—the food, music, costumes, Kievan history, Odessa jokes, folkloric rites—all gone, we are left with a gaping hole in our own culture. Much of what you foreign guys know as truly Russian—from the wooden dolls and carpets on the walls to the Kremlin architecture and the cool songs— actually consists of foreign imports, or is the creation of ethnic minorities from the last two centuries of our empire.

    The Bolsheviks obliterated the dazzling multitude of our own ethnic traditions in old Russia that we could have put into the foundation of our post-Soviet identity. Ukrainians have managed to preserve their roots much better, so there is some envy thrown into it, too.

    Below, a world-famous dance Yablochko, the signature performance number of many Soviet shows. All of us nowadays instantly recognize it as ours, “Russian”.

    The truth is, it originated a century ago in what is now Ukraine, in the city of Odessa and adjoining territories. Back then, it combined Greek dance steps superimposed the Hornpipe dance of British sailors performed to Jewish Klezmer tunes. We won’t cede this to the Ukrainians of course. But incorporating them into Russia would make this Kulturkampf totally unnecessary.

    Replies: @German_reader

  224. @AaronB
    I am trying to imaginatively enter the minds of the Woke and understand the allure of this way of thinking. It's easy to simply dismiss it as insane or evil, but that's too facile. Many good people find this philosophy powerfully attractive.

    I was watching the 2006 movie Stardust with my young nieces, an excellent fantasy film btw, and they loved the scene where Robert Deniro is outed as a gay crossdresser. Their eyes lit up and they applauded.

    Now, I have no problem with gays and think the old traditional attitudes to gays were barbaric and in dire need of reform, but the modern celebration of gayness has I believe a special philosophic significance.

    Clearly, modern man experiences the "natural order" as an intolerable constraint, and thinks happiness lies in breaking free of it's "shackles". Hence science, the project to dominate nature, transgender, etc.

    So far so good.

    But why is that, when I find my delight, my deepest peace and sense of home, precisely in nature?

    I have for a long time been attracted to philosophies like Taoism which basically say there is a "way" in the universe that we find our deepest happiness and freedom in following. I have found this experientally true on so deep a level that I can no longer question it - yet for most of my youth, like every modern, I rebelled against it. Yet this attitude is diametrically opposed to modernity.

    Clearly, the modern project of not following the "way" of nature is leading to societal breakdown, and insanity, dysphoria, and deep unhappiness.

    What I did not mention above, is that those very nieces, who are now mildly Woke, all suffer from severe mental illness - OCD, phobias, dysphoria, and eating disorders - partly brought on by growing up with allergies, but largely imo by their philosophy of life.

    Yet why are we convinced, that the very thing that will save us - a "fitting in" with the universe or Way of nature rather than revolting against it - is actually the source of our problems?

    I have begun to think a large part of it is the way our culture has taught us to think of these issues. Words like acceptance, limits, constraint, etc, are all used to depict the attitude of going along with nature. But those are dreary words.

    One might describe it as the exhilarating feeling of being connected to a larger whole, the peace and sense of homecoming one feels at taking up ones true place in the cosmos, the sense of magic and mystery one feels when one sees oneself as part of a larger fabric, the sense of safety and "rightness" one feels.

    Yet even religious writers use the language of constraint. Jesus said pick up your Cross and follow me - now of course he meant a social cross, because he knew that the social order will persecute anyone who questions the project of control and domination. And I believe he, or was it Paul, who said following his Way us a light and easy burden - which of course, since it's no longer a quest for domination, is quite true.

    In Zen and Taoism, enormous effort is made to create this feeling of "Oneness" with nature, connection, relationship, and co-identity, because that eliminates the feeling of constraint, and replaces it with a feeling of exhilarating freedom.

    The old religious message - that one finds happiness by following the Way of the cosmos fitting in with a larger fabric rather than fighting it - is still the only truth that will save us.

    We don't need new myths. The old stories are correct. But perhaps we need new language? Or rather, better emphases.

    But I think there is more to the mystery - what modern habits of thought or life, sustain is in this delusion that rebelling against the way of nature will bring us happiness, and obscure to us so obvious a truth?

    Replies: @AaronB

    Alan Watts used to make the excellent point that the West thinks of nature as having “laws”, because Western religion was modeled after those Near Eastern despotisms, and adopted much of the imagery of the court.

    Watts pointed out they are only “laws” if you experience them as external compulsions – however, it’s possible to take a wholly different approach, that you are willingly cooperating with them. They are no longer “laws”.

    But to willingly follow the Way if nature without feeling it as an external compulsions, would mean we would have y cultivate a feeling of participation in nature – a sense of relationship and identity with it.

    No longer seeing ourselves as independent and seperate specks, but as co-participants.

    But this would require a complete imaginative revolution…..

  225. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Your bringing up the matter of interning "douchebag" (seeing how you use that term to describe Medvedchuk) Porky.

    On another matter you raise, Serhiy Kudelia (who you might know of) said from Lviv, that most Ukrainians don't expect a Russian attack.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody’s care or concern about him or his whereabouts?

    • LOL: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody’s care or concern about him or his whereabouts?
     
    Poroshenko catered to the svido vote in the last Ukrainian presidential election. Medvedchuk's redeeming quality is the he serves as a more pro-Russian leaning counter to that element.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  226. @Mikel
    @AaronB

    Sorry, I had missed your recount of your camping activities in Arizona.

    Due to the special treatment received by your comments, one needs to remember to look upthread sporadically when you're around.


    I am ashamed to say I once again chickened out and went for the winter sun
     
    Nothing to be ashamed of at all. What good is it to have these wonderful regions of benign sunny weather if we are not going to enjoy them when the sun is in short supply everywhere else?

    Besides, camping in the Owens Valley in winter is no laughing matter. It gets cold there at night. I saw that the end of year snowfalls reached that region, at least up to Bishop.

    I agree that it is a desolate but beautiful place between the High Sierras and the Death Valley. In mid July, when the heat is at its most unbearable, they organize a very crazy ultramarathon from the scorching depth of Death Valley at Badwater to the footsteps of the Mount Whitney (the lowest and highest points of the contiguous US). Apparently, some people have made it all the way to the top of the peak but now the ascent to this mountain is restricted.

    When I heard about this race I planned to enrol and give it a try but there was no way they would have allowed me to participate. You need to show experience in this sort of marathons and I cannot really document any of my crazy adventures.

    Anyway, if you have the time and proper gear, you may enjoy a short winter camping trip above the snowline. Northern Arizona, especially the Flagstaff area, gets plenty of snow this time of the year. I think that experiencing the elements during wintertime is very much in line with your idea that life is not about seeking permanent comfort and security, which I totally agree with. I certainly get a good high every time the snow season returns when I go up there and experience the new cycle of nature, immutable and unforgiving. But maybe it's just my eccentric self. Be careful whatever you do.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AaronB

    I agree, I don’t remember Aaron sharing his Arizona camping experiences with us (I mean he could have, but it looks like we both missed it). The forecast is for another 1-3 inches of snow tonight in the
    Flagstaff area…

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Mr. Hack


    I agree, I don’t remember Aaron sharing his Arizona camping experiences with us (I mean he could have, but it looks like we both missed it).
     
    Who knows if he even went camping? Maybe his camping stories are just one big hallucination, or a mishmash of half-remembered fragments of former trips; and in reality, he's cozied up to his PC, tap-tap-tapping away at his keyboard from the comfort of his centrally heated apartment, fumes from the last bong hit still wafting in the air. (You can almost imagine him falling off the edge of his bed and awakening with a thud. That bear he dreamed he was dancing with? Just the sex doll he'd somnambulantly yanked out of the closet.)

    At least he has the decency - one would hope - to do all this alone. If you don't pick your friends carefully when you smoke, there'll always be one asshole who insists on sharing his brilliant philosophical insights, steamrolling all attempts to change the subject back to something more fun.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  227. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody's care or concern about him or his whereabouts?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody’s care or concern about him or his whereabouts?

    Poroshenko catered to the svido vote in the last Ukrainian presidential election. Medvedchuk’s redeeming quality is the he serves as a more pro-Russian leaning counter to that element.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Yeah, he was a self serving Putin boot licker. He may even have you beat in this department. In other words a real schmuck. Did you know that the Zelensky's people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas? If that's true (which I admit, I find hard to believe) the two might find themselves as bunk mates in prison. Seems like Deja Vu to me. First Yanukovych had Timoshenko and Lutsenko put into prison and now Zelensky is going after Poroshenko.

    Replies: @AP

  228. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Poroshenko is probably another greedy and conniving Ukrainian politician, but he did have a few redeeming qualities too. Medvechuk? What do you find so agreeable about the guy that warrants anybody’s care or concern about him or his whereabouts?
     
    Poroshenko catered to the svido vote in the last Ukrainian presidential election. Medvedchuk's redeeming quality is the he serves as a more pro-Russian leaning counter to that element.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Yeah, he was a self serving Putin boot licker. He may even have you beat in this department. In other words a real schmuck. Did you know that the Zelensky’s people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas? If that’s true (which I admit, I find hard to believe) the two might find themselves as bunk mates in prison. Seems like Deja Vu to me. First Yanukovych had Timoshenko and Lutsenko put into prison and now Zelensky is going after Poroshenko.

    • Thanks: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Did you know that the Zelensky’s people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas
     
    Although this is extremely suspect IMO, it is strange that during his presidency Poroshenko never touched Medvedchuk.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  229. @German_reader
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for providing this insight into Ukrainian affairs.
    I'm really baffled by Scholz's behaviour (pathetic to bring up Corona as an excuse), I can only assume he doesn't want to be confronted regarding the NS2 pipeline and economic sanctions against Russia in case of an invasion of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

    I came across this interesting article from NPR that I think accurately reflects the opinions of many Ukrainians today regarding the imminent threats seen from Russia:

    Artyom and Marina Kluchnikov have made do raising four children in a cramped, Soviet-style apartment on the outskirts of Ukraine’s capital…We do not have like a suitcase with stuff already packed into it,” says Artyom, 46. “But I have a checklist so that I would just be ready, you know, if something happens. And I make sure that my car has at least three-quarters of a tank full at any given point in time.”…Since 2014, when the conflict began, Artyom and Marina have seen changes in their country. They say Ukrainians have begun to see Russia as an enemy…”We see the lies that Russia tells about us,” says Artyom. “We see the death toll of people in the east — you know, how many soldiers died for us. I think it goes to the national memory, I guess. We know the reason for those deaths.”…The reason, he says, is Putin, who started the rebellion in the east and has kept it boiling over the last seven years. They hold him responsible for the more than 14,000 dead. Russia also annexed Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula in 2014. But Artyom says Putin is getting the opposite of what he wants…Another effect of Russia’s aggressive behavior over the better part of the last decade, the Kluchnikovs say, is that many Ukrainians don’t want to speak Russian anymore. A recent poll found that more than half of Ukrainians were speaking Ukrainian instead of Russian at home — a change from 30 years ago, when 37% did. Ukraine’s close historical ties with Russia make it hard for Marina to be happy about the reasons for this change. “It’s a painful issue for me because my father, for instance, he grew up in Russia,” she says. “And my great-grandmother, she was a teacher of Russian. I grew up speaking Russian. And I was never against Russia. Never.” But today she says she doesn’t even speak Russian with her own sister anymore. “Putin has done a lot of good things for establishing a Ukrainian national mentality,” he says, laughing. “He’s the one who invested so much effort into trying to bring us in. But the only thing that he has done is push us away.”

    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074723377/ukraine-russia-invasion-fears

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    As presented, the gist of that NPR piece is unsurprisingly misinformative. Restrictions on the Russian language in Ukraine were taking shape before 2014.

    Related, the polling on NATO membership indicates regional differences. According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven't fact checked), Kiev has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

    BTW, Karlin noted a poll saying that 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin's essay on Russia-Ukraine. Before becoming Ukrainian president, Zelensky is on record for saying the same.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

  230. @LatW
    @AP

    If you have time, look up the one Iryna Vereshchuk (I don't want to post her pics here). She has an interesting look of a Nordid Slav. From what I understand, she's also not short.

    Replies: @AP

    She is from a mall town north of Lviv (I don’t mind posting a picture):

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    When having the right kind of political views, the presented Scandinavian Helga influence on territory making up Rus is okay in Galicia and Wolyn, unlike in some other instances. Specifically, outside of the former Habsburg ruled part of Ukraine and having a more pro-Russian outlook.

    Replies: @Aedib

  231. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Yeah, he was a self serving Putin boot licker. He may even have you beat in this department. In other words a real schmuck. Did you know that the Zelensky's people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas? If that's true (which I admit, I find hard to believe) the two might find themselves as bunk mates in prison. Seems like Deja Vu to me. First Yanukovych had Timoshenko and Lutsenko put into prison and now Zelensky is going after Poroshenko.

    Replies: @AP

    Did you know that the Zelensky’s people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas

    Although this is extremely suspect IMO, it is strange that during his presidency Poroshenko never touched Medvedchuk.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    Poroshenko is accused of buying coal from the rebel held Donbass territory. If true, should that be considered as being a legit charge for prosecution?

    Replies: @AP

  232. @AaronB
    @Dmitry

    Ah, Dmitry trying to ignore the spiritual dimension and reduce everything to technocratic measures :)

    Sometimes I think we are all stock characters in a drama that someone is writing, and who is assigning us lines :)

    But your attitude, Dmitry, illustrates my point - which you seem to have missed.

    I am not denying that Covid has killed people. I am questioning whether our reaction was commensurate with the threat.

    And that is a question of values. Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression? With the loss in social life, the loss in opportunities for friendship and community, for love, for seeing smiles on people's faces? The demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions? The hysteria?

    Should life be about Safety?

    Those are spiritual questions.

    Dmitry, you are younger than me - in your twenties iirc - and you seem to have led a charmed and sheltered life so far. I am happy for you, truly.

    But as pleasant, intelligent, and charming as you are - and I'm sure you'd make excellent company over dinner - I cannot avoid saying that there seems to be something lacking in you - a kind of spiritual emptiness.

    Not entirely - there are flickers of spirituality in you. But do you not have a sense that there is "more" to life than your materialistic pleasures? And that scientific control is developing in a deeply troubling way?

    Perhaps, also, there is a desire to portray yourself as a debonair 18th century aristocrat in the English style, amused, cool, and unruffled, untroubled by such murky and messy questions as might trouble the soul on a dark night.

    And perhaps you do not yet see the problems with the Official Narrative.

    You are clearly not one of those who is tormented by modernity - suffering is not your role, it seems. Rather, you belong to that category of modern man who lives with a vast emptiness in his life, a chasm of meaninglessness.

    I once read a book about 18th century French aristocrats and their utterly reasonable and rational lives, all amused and aloof - I was 15 at the time, and had come from a richly imaginative childhood - and I remembered emerging with a sense of horror, emptiness, and futility at their vacuous lives.

    I had to read a good fantasy book - I believe it was the excellent Earthsea cycle by Leguin- after that just to cleanse my soul from the horror :)

    But I believe, Dmitry, that you are big enough to emerge from this youthful vacuity into something larger im life as you age. Often, our "initiation" into the mysteries of life occur as the result of illness or misfortune - but I do not wish that on you, and hope your emergence from the enchanted slumbers of youth are smoother.

    Honestly, in my 20s I was a Card Carrying member of the Official Narrative - complete and total atheist and full believer in Science. In fact, one of my chief frustrations at the time was how not fully rational - honest - many scientists and rational thinkers were.

    I think it was my very passion for scientific honesty, that made me press onward and see that the assumptions of science, and the world picture it gives us, are not actually proven.


    and we know your concept of “extreme narcotics abuse” is to drink matcha tea, and eat organic vegetables
     
    So here you are not quite correct, I'm afraid.

    I do drink more alcohol then modern science says is healthy.

    I can not drink for weeks, but I can easily go long periods drinking about eight to ten drinks a day - occasionally more.

    But then, I fully believe that the increase in social warmth and joy, sense of connection, more then compensates from any ill health effects.

    In Chan Buddhism, alcohol is sometimes said to be almost as good as reading texts in reaching that non-dual spiritual state :)

    As so often, modern medicine treats us as mere bodies, and forgets we are psycho-physical organisms.

    While you were outside gentrifying Brooklyn (or chasing bears, according to German Reader – but in cold January?), you missed our discussion about “terroir”. Utu is now trying to deny he is upper class 🙂
     
    Unfortunately, utu seems to have gotten more curmudgeonly as time went on. He used to have a good spiritual dimension. His panic over Covid and support for the Program of Control suggests he has lost connection to higher things.

    Of course, this is much more likely to happen among today's elites :) So yes, our good utu is almost certainly of the upper classes.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    reaction was commensurate with the threat

    Imagine you lived in a country, where spread of pandemic was insufficiently reduced before vaccination. Then if you were one of the millions of people who have been killed by coronavirus as a result of this, or was friends/family with them. Obviously you would consider the reaction is insufficient for the threat, let alone the other way round.

    Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression?

    It’s not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate, and you can be comparing individual decisions, and the country reaction.

    For example, much of the epidemiologically vulnerable peoples’ panic was result of failure of their country to manage the pandemic, whereas relaxing on the individual level, was a luxury enjoyable for citizens of countries that adequately managed the situation like Taiwan, New Zealand or Japan.

    If you lived in Australia, even as if you were an epidemiologically vulnerable person, then your reaction can be quite relaxed and unanxious, as the country prevented the pandemic on the society level. Whereas if the same epidemiologically vulnerable person, lived in Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, they are better to individually panic (if they don’t want to suffocate in a decaying hospital), as there was not much ability or interest to prevent the pandemic on the country level.

    demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions?

    If you live in one of the more authoritarian societies, then the pandemic has been often an opportunity for the government to
    exploit for its pre-existing policy to increase control and surveillance against its “citizens” (probably better to say, “cattle”).

    But this is not a problem of “overreaction to the pandemic”, but of the lack of oversight, civil rights, information transparency, etc, in these societies.

    untroubled by such murky and messy questions

    I will look forward to such murky and messy questions as e.g. UFOs, Tibetan Book of the Dead and whether it is a good idea to bring a bottle of Japanese whiskey, if you would to invite me to this dinner party you seemed to be hinting about.

    he has lost connection to higher things.

    These pandemic travel restrictions and tensions with Ukraine have been difficult for many of us. I will pray with you that Rav Utu does not lose his connection to Hashem – ani gam mekaveh sh’hoo yuchal levaker at Uman hashanah 🙏

    • Replies: @A123
    @Dmitry


    It’s not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate,
     
    One of the reasons why Governor DeSantis is so popular is that he nailed the WUHAN-19 virus response trade-offs:

        • Maximized protection for the nursing homes
        • Emphasized rapid response treatment (e.g. monoclonal antibodies)
        • Refused to mandate useless masks
        • Blocked Manda-vaxx extremism
        • Opened schools for children not at risk

    The states that followed this pattern are substantially outperforming those that did not.

    Would you rather live free & healthy in a Red State?
    Or, remain locked down in a Blue one?



    demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions?
     
    If you live in one of the more authoritarian societies, then the pandemic has been often an opportunity for the government to exploit for its pre-existing policy to increase control and surveillance against its “citizens” (probably better to say, “cattle”).

    But this is not a problem of “overreaction to the pandemic”, but of the lack of oversight, civil rights, information transparency, etc, in these societies.

     

    "Never let a good crisis go to waste.", Winston Churchill, post WW-II
    "If a crisis does not exist, make one.", Unknown

    You are 100% correct that this is an indication of a larger problem -- authoritarian society & governance. There is now a spotlight shining on power hungry, but highly ineffective, Elite Globalists around the world.

    -- Australia has just humiliated itself for all to see, by publicly targeting a professional athlete in prime health.
    -- ex-Governor "Granny Killer" Cuomo used authoritarian force to infect the most vulnerable and defenseless nursing home patients. Thousands died.
    -- The White House so fears MAGA success, they stole medication from Florida in the name of "equity". (1)

    Blue State teacher strikes have an upside. Schools are prime centers of indoctrination and recruitment. Home schooling allows parents to keep their kids away from sexual deviance and race based CRT misinformation.

    A substantial, and hopefully permanent, mind shift is underway. A significant number of workers are beginning to think. And, they are blaming the media for intentionally creating the authoritarian crisis with propaganda rather than reporting.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/?s=Monoclonal

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQdORRepjc

    , @AaronB
    @Dmitry


    Imagine you lived in a country, where spread of pandemic was insufficiently reduced before vaccination. Then if you were one of the millions of people who have been killed by coronavirus as a result of this, or was friends/family with them. Obviously you would consider the reaction is insufficient for the threat, let alone the other way round.
     
    You are accusing me here of a failure of imagination - if I was confronted with the "reality" of death, I would surely realize it's horrors and think just like you.

    But aren't you here failing to imagine that people might genuinely not find death the most horrifying thing?

    I can certainly understand why an atheist materialist fears death above all, but it seems you cannot step out of your position and imaginatively inhabit it's opposite.

    As an excerize in expanding your intellectual range, why not try for a moment "inhabiting" the world view of someone who believes in a spiritual dimension and doesn't see death as the ultimate calamity? You may reject this view, but it would be interesting to briefly experience it.

    One of the massive limitations of our modern mono-culture, is it's increasing loss of the ability to inhabit alternative ways of seeing.

    Similarly, on the pointless debates on why the industrial revolution happened in the West, we cannot imaginatively inhabit a world view in which industry simply isn't a priority.

    History and literature can help us expand our range, but are those even read anymore?

    It’s not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate, and you can be comparing individual decisions, and the country reaction.

    For example, much of the epidemiologically vulnerable peoples’ panic was result of failure of their country to manage the pandemic, whereas relaxing on the individual level, was a luxury enjoyable for citizens of countries that adequately managed the situation like Taiwan, New Zealand or Japan.
     
    Well, I have to say you are doing it here again too :)

    You are smuggling the premise into the conclusion.

    This is what people do when they don't want to question the premise.

    You're obviously smart enough to know what you're doing on some level, so I can only conclude you do not want to discuss your value system; that death is the worst calamity, that we should sacrifice all other life goods to avoid. You simply want that accepted as the basis of the conversation, and then discuss "technique".

    Well, in the end, one cannot "prove" values or even "argue" over them - one can only state alternatives, and perhaps, describe the emotional states and lifestyles they lead to.

    But this modern trick, where one refuses even to concede values may differ, and insists on reducing everything to a discussion of "technique", is a massive sidestepping of the issue.

    If you live in one of the more authoritarian societies, then the pandemic has been often an opportunity for the government to
    exploit for its pre-existing policy to increase control and surveillance against its “citizens” (probably better to say, “cattle”).

    But this is not a problem of “overreaction to the pandemic”, but of the lack of oversight, civil rights, information transparency, etc, in these societies.
     
    Again, reducing it to a question of "technique".

    The entire developed world is increasingly authoritarian - surely that reflects a particular value system?

    And surely Covid facilitated the rapid expansion of this value system?

    Perhaps, there is an underlying connection between authoritarianism and technology, as they are both systems for Control and Safety, that is now coming to light, as technology-as-culture begins to develop into its mature phase.

    A cultural mode like technology can take centuries to develop it's full implications - but they are always there from the beginning, waiting to unfold.

    I will look forward to such murky and messy questions as e.g. UFOs, Tibetan Book of the Dead and whether it is a good idea to bring a bottle of Japanese whiskey, if you would to invite me to this dinner party you seemed to be hinting about.
     
    Absolutely, Dmitry, I would love to take you to some wonderful eating places in NYC, if I'm there at the same time you are :)

    These pandemic travel restrictions and tensions with Ukraine have been difficult for many of us. I will pray with you that Rav Utu does not lose his connection to Hashem – ani gam mekaveh sh’hoo yuchal levaker at Uman hashanah 🙏
     
    The Great Rabbi utu will eventually go to Uman and reignite his connection to Hashem, before he is buried there :)

    It is a beautiful vision.

    Ani maskim itcha sheze yehiye tov bishvil haneshama shell utu - ani yitpalel al ze :)
  233. @songbird
    We need to go back to Europe of the 1910s, before WWI, only without the Baedekers.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    That might not be enough to remove all the liberal influence of the Enlightenment, you need to look at Pol Pot as the only example of successful de-bourgeoisization and de-modernization. Mao tried to do this by sending students to the field en masse, but it was reversed a few years later.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon

    Mao and Pot had it wrong - backwards.

    Don't send the liberal intellectuals to the countryside, send them to cities that are decoupled from the national culture. I'm talking Kinshasa, and Kano and Ibadan in Nigeria.

  234. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikel

    I agree, I don't remember Aaron sharing his Arizona camping experiences with us (I mean he could have, but it looks like we both missed it). The forecast is for another 1-3 inches of snow tonight in the
    Flagstaff area...

    Replies: @silviosilver

    I agree, I don’t remember Aaron sharing his Arizona camping experiences with us (I mean he could have, but it looks like we both missed it).

    Who knows if he even went camping? Maybe his camping stories are just one big hallucination, or a mishmash of half-remembered fragments of former trips; and in reality, he’s cozied up to his PC, tap-tap-tapping away at his keyboard from the comfort of his centrally heated apartment, fumes from the last bong hit still wafting in the air. (You can almost imagine him falling off the edge of his bed and awakening with a thud. That bear he dreamed he was dancing with? Just the sex doll he’d somnambulantly yanked out of the closet.)

    At least he has the decency – one would hope – to do all this alone. If you don’t pick your friends carefully when you smoke, there’ll always be one asshole who insists on sharing his brilliant philosophical insights, steamrolling all attempts to change the subject back to something more fun.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver

    Keeping it real, keeping it funny." Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha"! (I just woke up, haven't even had any coffee yet). Where have you been hiding this outburst of imagination and writing, Silvio! :-)

    Replies: @silviosilver

  235. @AaronB
    Most people won't see it, but there is a clear connection between phenomena like Covid hysteria and Woke ideology.

    Modern society believes utopia comes from controlling and manipulating matter. So if there is a threat to life, however trivial, we must control as much as possible. That's always our response.

    Likewise, why be constrained by biological gender? Our society is based on dominating nature, not living with it.

    Old Newton did not know it, but the logical culmination of the revolution he helped set in motion, is today's Woke :)

    This seems like a shocking, even absurd, statement, but if you think about it becomes almost trivially true. A society based on dominating nature cannot help but eventually turn to the human body.

    Our society tells us, that if you feel unhappy, anxious, or dysphoric, the answer can only be in manipulating matter in some fashion. In controlling more. We don't give spiritual answers. Eventually, this matter manipulation will of course include the physical body.

    Anyone who thinks Woke is an "accidental" phenomenon that emanates from America - and not an inevitability in a technological society - is fooling himself.

    If there was any point, I'd bet anyone any amount of money that China will in the coming decades turn towards manipulating the natural constraints of the body, and develop a version of Woke. China has fully embraced the Program of Control at the dark heart of Western culture, to a terrifying degree exceeding that of the West. It's just still in the phase where it's primarily concerned with conquering the external world.

    It's been said that we are not in a clash of civilizations with regard to China - we are in a struggle with the Wests Shadow.

    Likewise it's futile to dream that Europe is influenced by America in this matter. Euro elites have likewise fully embraced the Program of Control. Look at Klaus Schwab.

    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature - extreme technology - yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual - it's a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control - while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it's dream is always to install a regime of total control - and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Emil Nikola Richard, @Thulean Friend

    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature – extreme technology – yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual – it’s a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control – while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it’s dream is always to install a regime of total control – and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.

    Isn’t the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform? In other words, less about technology than the tyranny of the oligarchs to deflect from legitimate demands?

    A complicating factor is that technological innovation has slowed since the end of WWII. This process has worked in tandem with artistic output collapsing simultaneously in quality. Thereby raising the question that perhaps a general malaise is afflicting our societies, rather than a clear choice between two extremes.

    P.S. welcome back. I have missed your incisive commentary. The only commentator left that I am now missing is Mr Chieh, who was probably my favourite Unz commentator (aside from things on China, where he was blind to any other perspective than the official CCP party line).

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Thulean Friend


    Isn’t the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform?
     
    Capitalism has simply coopted it for that purpose. Its marxist originators intended it to stoke discontent, since the more discontent there is in society, the greater likelihood of revolutionary action. (Their attempts to stir up revolutionary agitation on solely economic grounds having thoroughly failed.)
    , @AaronB
    @Thulean Friend


    A complicating factor is that technological innovation has slowed since the end of WWII. This process has worked in tandem with artistic output collapsing simultaneously in quality. Thereby raising the question that perhaps a general malaise is afflicting our societies, rather than a clear choice between two extremes.
     
    Actually, I think they have the same underlying cause - excessive control.

    Art in the modern period shifted from being an alternative to technological ways of seeing - especially Romantic art - to being another servant of the technological agenda - which is domination of nature.

    Modern art seeks nothing else but the "overturning" of everything that was previously regarded as "natural" - hatred of Beauty, and eliciting of disgust and shock, are now it's primary aims. It's a clear ally in "preparing the consciousness" for the complete domination of technology, which is the domination of nature.

    It used to be said, in the early 20th century when things came into starker relief, that we had "two cultures" that were increasingly diverging, the artistic and scientific.

    What happened, was the gradual and then total takeover of our entire culture by the spirit of science, so that art itself came to serve the technological agenda, and became a method of spreading contempt for nature and spreading the idea that we must overturn it and subvert it. We no longer have Romantic artists promoting balance and harmony with nature.

    As for science, it's the same story. As science is about controlling our environment, after it became advanced enough it naturally began implementing "systems of control" - bureaucracies, algorithms, and protocols, etc.

    David Graeber recently wrote a book on bureaucracy - I read parts of it, but basically, his thesis is that technological innovation has stalled because of suffocating systems of bureaucracy we have willingly installed (peer review, etc). And we installed them because we prefer Safety, as much as we grumble about bureaucracy.

    But in my opinion, and what Graeber doesn't see - he laments the above development and calls for it's reversal - is that technology is fundamentally about increasing Control and Safety. Methods of control inevitably develop to the point where they become self-defeating - that's the folly of "limitless control". It's eventually self-defeating.

    A malaise is a state in which you lack the motivation or energy to formulate and achieve basic life goals - a good way to cut yourself off from vital energies is to stifle yourself in a system of excessive control.

    But then in this sense are we in a malaise at all? Perhaps the technological agenda has merely moved onto to it's next logical phase - increasingly minute and total control, rather than the dramatic expansion of large scale powers. And is modern art not succeeding admirably in promoting contempt for Nature?

    It may be more accurate to say we shifted to a new phase of the agenda of dominating nature - we have moved on from the dramatic extension of powers - the "heroic age" of science - to ever more minute control.

    But there is a sense of inevitability about this.

    Just as the warrior who succeeds too well - who wins too much wealth and security for his country - creates the conditions for the eclipse of his own warrior class, as they grow soft, so too the march of technology creates conditions that can no longer sustain dramatic expansion of it's powers, but only an ever wider and finer net of control.

    As for choosing between extremes, that's not what I was offering. Modern science itself strikes me as an extreme in it's desire for complete domination of nature, total control of the environment.

    I counsel stepping back from this extreme to a more balanced and modest technology. Humans have always used technology - it's natural for us.

    But limitless technology, is, I think it's becoming plain, a recipe for societal collapse - for very deep and far reaching reasons that strike at the root of human motivation and creativity.


    Isn’t the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform? In other words, less about technology than the tyranny of the oligarchs to deflect from legitimate demands?
     
    I think there is a lot of truth to that. There are many cynical oligarchs who are thrilled about the divisive element in Woke.

    Your enemy is that race or gender, of course deflects attention away from class injustice.

    But it's impossible for me to not see how Woke is connected to the other main trends of our culture in technology and art.

    The three main pillars of our culture, ideology, art, and science - our attitude to life, our imaginative expression of that attitude , and our relationship to the material world - seem strikingly unified by a single common theme - contempt for Nature.

    The West has finally achieved a "cultural synthesis" based on one great organizing principle. The last time this happened was the Middle Ages.

    Also, it's impossible to miss the note of genuine religious enthusiasm in so many - often highly intelligent! - Woke believers.

    Many genuinely think happiness will come from violating the Way of Nature rather than finding ones place within it. And is that so surprising, when our dominant cultural mode, science and technology, is based on that very claim?

    Thank you very much for the kind words! It's probably pointless for me to say that I find you one of the most valuable commenters here, as that's widely recognized around these parts.

    As for Daniel Chieh, I totally miss him! While he is obviously on the side of Control and Safety, and the total domination of nature - he's a transhumanist - and thus am enemy, I very much enjoyed my "jousts" with him.

    While he always tried to bully me and, well, "control" me :) ,he at least had a relatively high level of honesty, and genuinely argued ideas - rare these days!

    And yes, agree he would lose his head in Chinese matters.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Thulean Friend

    I'm on substack, but basically you can find me wherever Anatoly is writing.

  236. Cool.

  237. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Did you know that the Zelensky’s people are even trying to paint Poroshenko into the same camp, supposedly him supporting terrorists in Donbas
     
    Although this is extremely suspect IMO, it is strange that during his presidency Poroshenko never touched Medvedchuk.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Poroshenko is accused of buying coal from the rebel held Donbass territory. If true, should that be considered as being a legit charge for prosecution?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    AFAIK that is banned so he broke the law if he did so. Allegedly he did this through or with Medvedchuk, which might explain how Medvedchuk somehow avoided any problems during Poroshenko’s presidency.

    OTOH, Poroshenko made enormous improvements to the Ukrainian military, pushed through the separation of Churches, etc. which contradicts him being some sort of secret Russian collaborator. If Poroshenko did what he is accused of doing, maybe Ukraine desperately needed the coal, so he secretly facilitated the illegal circumvention of Donbas while conveniently making some $$$ doing so (corruption and profit-making was his weak point).

    Replies: @Mikhail

  238. @AP
    @LatW

    She is from a mall town north of Lviv (I don't mind posting a picture):

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ad9oJ3ck5E4/maxresdefault.jpg

    Replies: @Mikhail

    When having the right kind of political views, the presented Scandinavian Helga influence on territory making up Rus is okay in Galicia and Wolyn, unlike in some other instances. Specifically, outside of the former Habsburg ruled part of Ukraine and having a more pro-Russian outlook.

    • LOL: Aedib
    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Mikhail

    How is the average “pro-Russian Outlook”? Someone like the one of Shoigu? It must be hard for Svidos to accept that Ukrainians have, in average, more central Asian blood than the Russians. That does explain their furious cherrypicking effort.

  239. @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader

    I came across this interesting article from NPR that I think accurately reflects the opinions of many Ukrainians today regarding the imminent threats seen from Russia:


    Artyom and Marina Kluchnikov have made do raising four children in a cramped, Soviet-style apartment on the outskirts of Ukraine's capital...We do not have like a suitcase with stuff already packed into it," says Artyom, 46. "But I have a checklist so that I would just be ready, you know, if something happens. And I make sure that my car has at least three-quarters of a tank full at any given point in time."...Since 2014, when the conflict began, Artyom and Marina have seen changes in their country. They say Ukrainians have begun to see Russia as an enemy..."We see the lies that Russia tells about us," says Artyom. "We see the death toll of people in the east — you know, how many soldiers died for us. I think it goes to the national memory, I guess. We know the reason for those deaths."...The reason, he says, is Putin, who started the rebellion in the east and has kept it boiling over the last seven years. They hold him responsible for the more than 14,000 dead. Russia also annexed Ukraine's Crimean peninsula in 2014. But Artyom says Putin is getting the opposite of what he wants...Another effect of Russia's aggressive behavior over the better part of the last decade, the Kluchnikovs say, is that many Ukrainians don't want to speak Russian anymore. A recent poll found that more than half of Ukrainians were speaking Ukrainian instead of Russian at home — a change from 30 years ago, when 37% did. Ukraine's close historical ties with Russia make it hard for Marina to be happy about the reasons for this change. "It's a painful issue for me because my father, for instance, he grew up in Russia," she says. "And my great-grandmother, she was a teacher of Russian. I grew up speaking Russian. And I was never against Russia. Never." But today she says she doesn't even speak Russian with her own sister anymore. "Putin has done a lot of good things for establishing a Ukrainian national mentality," he says, laughing. "He's the one who invested so much effort into trying to bring us in. But the only thing that he has done is push us away."
     
    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074723377/ukraine-russia-invasion-fears

    Replies: @Mikhail

    As presented, the gist of that NPR piece is unsurprisingly misinformative. Restrictions on the Russian language in Ukraine were taking shape before 2014.

    Related, the polling on NATO membership indicates regional differences. According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven’t fact checked), Kiev has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

    BTW, Karlin noted a poll saying that 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin’s essay on Russia-Ukraine. Before becoming Ukrainian president, Zelensky is on record for saying the same.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    IIRC, EU wins throughout Ukraine. NATO wins easily in the West, has a slight majority in the Center, has plurality in the South (less than 50% support, but slightly more support than Opposition), but loses in the East. Prior to 2014 NATO only won in the West.

    41% of Ukrainians in a poll felt that Ukrainians and Russians were one people (however that is defined) but did not agree any statement that the two countries should be united, so they did not agree with Putin overall. Something like 10% of anti-Russian ultranationalists agreed with that statement, so it cannot be taken as some sort of desire for union.

    , @Mikhail
    @Mikhail

    EDIT

    Corrected version:


    According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven’t fact checked), central Ukraine has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out central Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

     

    I've since come across these pieces which in conjunction with each other, credibly second guess the 54% pro-NATO membership polling result in Ukraine:

    https://www.russiamatters.org/node/13078

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/19/ukrainians-our-survey-werent-enthusiastic-about-nato-exercises-close-russia/

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail


    As presented, the gist of that NPR piece is unsurprisingly misinformative. Restrictions on the Russian language in Ukraine were taking shape before 2014.
     
    So even before 2014 Ukrainians were trying to promote their own native language instead of the one that had rightfully acquired the accretions of imperial perfidy. What's wrong with that?

    The interview was not at all "misinformative" as you claim, reflecting the reactions of a Ukrainian family that had at one time had very positive feelings towards Russia, Russians and their interrelationship. Not anymore! Unless you can demonstrate that the opposite is true, that there's been a groundswell of admiration of all things Russian in Ukraine since 2014, it's really you that's being misinformative and just blowing smoke from your myopic "all things Russian are good for Ukrainians" stilted vision.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  240. @Thulean Friend
    @AaronB


    Increasingly, we live in times of choice. Even recently, it was possible to believe one could have a society based on domination of nature – extreme technology – yet not have things like Woke, etc.

    I believe Thulean Friend still believes this. On the other thread, iirc, TF laments the loss of eccentrics and creative types in gentrifying neighborhoods. Yet creativity is inherently hostile to the Program of Control that underlies extreme technology and the domination of nature. Creativity is wild, anarchich, individual – it’s a natural force. Perhaps a Divine force.

    We now see, that the era of technology and creativity coexisting was necessarily a mere phase in the march of technology. The agenda of technology is greater and greater control – while it is still weak, eccentricity and creativity are tolerated, even help it advance. But it’s dream is always to install a regime of total control – and total safety.

    Increasingly, today, we can no longer ignore these choices.
     

    Isn't the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform? In other words, less about technology than the tyranny of the oligarchs to deflect from legitimate demands?

    A complicating factor is that technological innovation has slowed since the end of WWII. This process has worked in tandem with artistic output collapsing simultaneously in quality. Thereby raising the question that perhaps a general malaise is afflicting our societies, rather than a clear choice between two extremes.

    P.S. welcome back. I have missed your incisive commentary. The only commentator left that I am now missing is Mr Chieh, who was probably my favourite Unz commentator (aside from things on China, where he was blind to any other perspective than the official CCP party line).

    Replies: @silviosilver, @AaronB, @Daniel Chieh

    Isn’t the rise of Wokeness more a function of capitalism using it as a shield to substitute for real and genuine reform?

    Capitalism has simply coopted it for that purpose. Its marxist originators intended it to stoke discontent, since the more discontent there is in society, the greater likelihood of revolutionary action. (Their attempts to stir up revolutionary agitation on solely economic grounds having thoroughly failed.)

  241. @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    Just my superficial impressions. Problems in Turkey's economy, can be more middle income trap than just the incompetent fiscal management?

    Turkey's economy was growing the 2000s. It managed to reach to the same level as Russia, but by manufacturing, rather than as a result of the increase in oil/gas prices that caused economic growth in Russia. So, for many observers, Turkey had seemed like more of successful economy at that time.

    Until the early or middle 2010s, Turkey's economy had been described as a real success by many journalists.

    But now of the last decade, it seems like Turkey has fallen hard in middle income trap. Their per capita income has stagnated at a level around Mexico in the GDP per capita ratings of the World Bank.

    And China (who are just beginning to join the middle income trap) seems to be already slightly above Turkey now on this measurement in the World Bank database.

    https://i.imgur.com/kkObz3P.jpg ​


    In the Balkans, it's well known about Greece's terrible economic problems, but Greece has still stagnated at a much higher level than the middle income trap countries. I guess Slovenia is the most successful economy in the Balkans (if you can include a neighbor of Austria, as being in the Balkans).


    Balkans population is in drastic decline, the Arab world continues to be hopelessly divided and ill-ruled, whilst Turkey remains the only state in the region with an industrial base

     

    Among middle income countries (although "high income" in the World Bank categorization), Turkey's authorities have also an advantage of not being in the EU, to the extent this means their population is locked inside Turkey and cannot so easily emigrate (although many still can go to Germany). This is the same advantage in Russia - population is mostly trapped in the country and cannot escape. Similarly, China.

    By comparison, in those middle income countries like Bulgaria or Romania, there is EU membership, and much of the youth have escaped to high income countries of Western Europe. I guess Mexico has a similar situation, where much of their youth is escaping to the USA.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Erdogan borrowed a lot money, now the bills are coming. The opposite of Russia really.

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    You can see that Turkey's economy stagnates since a decade ago at the same level as in Russia.

    Stagnation in Russia is not quite the same in terms of causes, neither is the economic structure (Turkey's economic growth is based in manufacturing exports, Russia in commodity exports) but end result produces the same kinds of measurements.

    Currency crisis in Turkey with the devaluation of lira and inflation, is most scale to what we experienced in 2014 (to today) with ruble. Or what happens in Kazakhstan. Peoples' income is devalued and imports become expensive, although elites' have prepared by moving their money outside. Some could argue currency devaluation would be supporting Turkey's manufacturing exports in the long term, but would you really want to your company to invest in Erdogan's banana economy?


    Erdogan borrowed a lot money, now the bills

     

    Still before this crisis they begin with a relatively low overall debt to GDP. World Bank database only reports until 2017 but you can see they had a low starting position entering to the crisis.

    Even whether the middle income is in oil/gas exporting economies, or manufacturing export economies (like Turkey or Mexico), it is typical of the middle income countries, is that their overall debt ratio to GDP was not high compared to high income countries.

    https://i.imgur.com/mJEefRU.jpg

  242. @Mikhail
    @AP

    Poroshenko is accused of buying coal from the rebel held Donbass territory. If true, should that be considered as being a legit charge for prosecution?

    Replies: @AP

    AFAIK that is banned so he broke the law if he did so. Allegedly he did this through or with Medvedchuk, which might explain how Medvedchuk somehow avoided any problems during Poroshenko’s presidency.

    OTOH, Poroshenko made enormous improvements to the Ukrainian military, pushed through the separation of Churches, etc. which contradicts him being some sort of secret Russian collaborator. If Poroshenko did what he is accused of doing, maybe Ukraine desperately needed the coal, so he secretly facilitated the illegal circumvention of Donbas while conveniently making some \$\$\$ doing so (corruption and profit-making was his weak point).

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    Poroshenko doesn't have a consistent history of siding with the svidos. Ditto Kravchuk, Kuchma, Yanukovych and Zelensky.

    Kuchma beat Kravchuk on a more pro-Russian platform. Likewise when Yanukovych won the Ukrainian presidency and when Zelensky beat Poroshenko.

    At play is the influence of oligarchs having business ties in the West like Pinchuk and the svidos.

    Replies: @AP

  243. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    As presented, the gist of that NPR piece is unsurprisingly misinformative. Restrictions on the Russian language in Ukraine were taking shape before 2014.

    Related, the polling on NATO membership indicates regional differences. According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven't fact checked), Kiev has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

    BTW, Karlin noted a poll saying that 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin's essay on Russia-Ukraine. Before becoming Ukrainian president, Zelensky is on record for saying the same.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

    IIRC, EU wins throughout Ukraine. NATO wins easily in the West, has a slight majority in the Center, has plurality in the South (less than 50% support, but slightly more support than Opposition), but loses in the East. Prior to 2014 NATO only won in the West.

    41% of Ukrainians in a poll felt that Ukrainians and Russians were one people (however that is defined) but did not agree any statement that the two countries should be united, so they did not agree with Putin overall. Something like 10% of anti-Russian ultranationalists agreed with that statement, so it cannot be taken as some sort of desire for union.

  244. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    As presented, the gist of that NPR piece is unsurprisingly misinformative. Restrictions on the Russian language in Ukraine were taking shape before 2014.

    Related, the polling on NATO membership indicates regional differences. According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven't fact checked), Kiev has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

    BTW, Karlin noted a poll saying that 41% of Ukrainians agree with Putin's essay on Russia-Ukraine. Before becoming Ukrainian president, Zelensky is on record for saying the same.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack

    EDIT

    Corrected version:

    According to one Ukrainian analyst (who I haven’t fact checked), central Ukraine has a plurality of pro-NATO constituents. The enthusiasm for NATO membership is noticeably under 54%, when taking out central Ukraine, along with the the former Habsburg ruled part in the West, with the exclusion of rebel held Donbass territory and reunified with Russia Crimea.

    I’ve since come across these pieces which in conjunction with each other, credibly second guess the 54% pro-NATO membership polling result in Ukraine:

    https://www.russiamatters.org/node/13078

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/19/ukrainians-our-survey-werent-enthusiastic-about-nato-exercises-close-russia/

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    I’ve since come across these pieces which in conjunction with each other, credibly second guess the 54% pro-NATO membership polling result in Ukraine:

    https://www.russiamatters.org/node/13078
     
    54% overall, in a referendum with 70% turnout is an easy win.

    Here is polling data from Razumkov, which is considered somewhat Russia-friendly:

    https://razumkov.org.ua/napriamky/sotsiologichni-doslidzhennia/otsinka-gromadianamy-sytuatsii-ta-protsesiv-shcho-vidbuvaiutsia-v-kraini-stavlennia-do-vstupu-do-yevropeiskogo-soiuzu-ta-nato-lystopad-gruden-2021r

    Among survey-takers, 48% support NATO membership, 33% oppose.

    Among those who say they would vote, NATO would win the referendum 70% to 25% - a landslide.

    EU would win a referendum 78% to 18% - even more of a landslide.

    In general, Ukrainians have turned against Russia. Recent events will only accelerate this.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  245. @AP
    @Mikhail

    AFAIK that is banned so he broke the law if he did so. Allegedly he did this through or with Medvedchuk, which might explain how Medvedchuk somehow avoided any problems during Poroshenko’s presidency.

    OTOH, Poroshenko made enormous improvements to the Ukrainian military, pushed through the separation of Churches, etc. which contradicts him being some sort of secret Russian collaborator. If Poroshenko did what he is accused of doing, maybe Ukraine desperately needed the coal, so he secretly facilitated the illegal circumvention of Donbas while conveniently making some $$$ doing so (corruption and profit-making was his weak point).

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Poroshenko doesn’t have a consistent history of siding with the svidos. Ditto Kravchuk, Kuchma, Yanukovych and Zelensky.

    Kuchma beat Kravchuk on a more pro-Russian platform. Likewise when Yanukovych won the Ukrainian presidency and when Zelensky beat Poroshenko.

    At play is the influence of oligarchs having business ties in the West like Pinchuk and the svidos.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    Kuchma beat Kravchuk on a more pro-Russian platform.
     
    Correct. At that time, Ukraine included Donbas and Crimea, and it was before the demographic changes (even without taking into account the loss of Crimea and Donbas, the East has been losing a lot more people since independence than has the West). Natural population growth 2012:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/NaturalGrowth2012.PNG

    The worst is in the pro-western far north, but this is sparsely populated and wouldn't make a huge electoral difference.
  246. @Mikhail
    @AP

    Poroshenko doesn't have a consistent history of siding with the svidos. Ditto Kravchuk, Kuchma, Yanukovych and Zelensky.

    Kuchma beat Kravchuk on a more pro-Russian platform. Likewise when Yanukovych won the Ukrainian presidency and when Zelensky beat Poroshenko.

    At play is the influence of oligarchs having business ties in the West like Pinchuk and the svidos.

    Replies: @AP

    Kuchma beat Kravchuk on a more pro-Russian platform.

    Correct. At that time, Ukraine included Donbas and Crimea, and it was before the demographic changes (even without taking into account the loss of Crimea and Donbas, the East has been losing a lot more people since independence than has the West). Natural population growth 2012:

    The worst is in the pro-western far north, but this is sparsely populated and wouldn’t make a huge electoral difference.

  247. @Dmitry
    @AaronB


    reaction was commensurate with the threat
     
    Imagine you lived in a country, where spread of pandemic was insufficiently reduced before vaccination. Then if you were one of the millions of people who have been killed by coronavirus as a result of this, or was friends/family with them. Obviously you would consider the reaction is insufficient for the threat, let alone the other way round.

    Was the increase in physical safety worth the massive increase in anxiety and depression?
     

    It's not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate, and you can be comparing individual decisions, and the country reaction.

    For example, much of the epidemiologically vulnerable peoples' panic was result of failure of their country to manage the pandemic, whereas relaxing on the individual level, was a luxury enjoyable for citizens of countries that adequately managed the situation like Taiwan, New Zealand or Japan.

    If you lived in Australia, even as if you were an epidemiologically vulnerable person, then your reaction can be quite relaxed and unanxious, as the country prevented the pandemic on the society level. Whereas if the same epidemiologically vulnerable person, lived in Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, they are better to individually panic (if they don't want to suffocate in a decaying hospital), as there was not much ability or interest to prevent the pandemic on the country level.


    demonization of dissenters? The control and restrictions?
     
    If you live in one of the more authoritarian societies, then the pandemic has been often an opportunity for the government to
    exploit for its pre-existing policy to increase control and surveillance against its "citizens" (probably better to say, "cattle").

    But this is not a problem of "overreaction to the pandemic", but of the lack of oversight, civil rights, information transparency, etc, in these societies.


    untroubled by such murky and messy questions

     

    I will look forward to such murky and messy questions as e.g. UFOs, Tibetan Book of the Dead and whether it is a good idea to bring a bottle of Japanese whiskey, if you would to invite me to this dinner party you seemed to be hinting about.

    he has lost connection to higher things.
     
    These pandemic travel restrictions and tensions with Ukraine have been difficult for many of us. I will pray with you that Rav Utu does not lose his connection to Hashem - ani gam mekaveh sh'hoo yuchal levaker at Uman hashanah 🙏

    Replies: @A123, @AaronB

    It’s not so simple, as these are not usually trade-offs between things which inversely correlate,

    One of the reasons why Governor DeSantis is so popular is that