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Here’s another Open Thread for the Karlin commenting community since the previous one has gotten very long and sluggish to load, jump starting it by moving a couple of the previous comments.

— Ron Unz

 
• Tags: Blogging, Open Thread 
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  1. Don’t know if I have the authority (I’d guess not), but I’d like invite the top draw, recent exiles of racist Twitter to comment here occasionally, as I miss their antiwoke witticisms.

  2. Another idea I have is to come up with a historical civilizational index, based on beach bods. Collect sample pics by year, and show them to foreigners to rate.

    Maybe, it is not a fair comparison, but I feel like if you look at the beaches near Tokyo, you can still see a few pretty girls. But, right now, it would be difficult to find them in many places in the West. What does Long Beach look like now?

    • Replies: @Nodwink
    @songbird

    Hot women have more financial opportunities now to show off their bodies for paying customers. Showing off your wares at the beach is basically giving away content. I reckon the women making money from "lewds" cover up at the beach.

    Replies: @Pericles

  3. German_reader says:

    Spain’s left-wing government has called for toys to go on strike against sexism:
    https://spainsnews.com/toys-go-on-strike-to-end-sexism/

    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).

    And many thanks again to Ron Unz for having created a new Open thread, it’s very generous, and I think I can say for all regular commenters that we appreciate it very much!

    • Agree: songbird, sher singh
    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).
     
    I think the fact that Catholicism is either relatively based (or in those Integralist forms very based) isn't nonsense in itself, but what is being highlighted here is that many people in nominally Catholic countries reject it or strongly rebel against it. Spain is a classic example because to establish the National Catholic state and Franco's absolute rule they had to fight a hard civil war against half of the country, so that following the establishment of a liberal democratic system there has been a strong counter reaction.

    Wokeness, in terms of intersectionality, was created in an Anglo-North American context, so it isn't surprising that the most intersectional countries are the US and Canada, then Australia, New Zealand, UK and then that it has spread out into the rest of Europe from there.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader


    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense.
     
    Iberia as a whole is exceptionally progressive for reasons that are not entirely clear to me. If you look at polling data for Greece or Italy on questions like immigration or similar hotbutton issues you will find a much greater right-wing bloc. The Iberian peninsula is basically the sunnier, browner and slightly more corrupt version of Sweden.

    I do not think this has much to do with Catholicism. It seems to be an outlier for domestic cultural reasons - certainly when compared to other Med countries. Sadly, I am not aware of a single person of Iberian origin on this blog, so we can't get much insight into why this the case.

    Replies: @Mikel

  4. Iran destroys more of Lebanon

    The Nasrallah-shima blast where Iranian Hezbollah destroyed the Beirut Port was apparently not enough.

    Now Iranian Hamas has also blown up part of Lebanon near the Port of Tyre: (1)

    “Initial reports suggested the incident began with a fire in a diesel tanker before spreading to a nearby mosque controlled by Hamas,” Deutsche Welle and various agencies wrote.

    “Footage shared by local media showed a number of small, bright red flashes above the port city, followed by a blast and the sound of glass shattering,” the report added.

    “Hamas maintains a presence in a number of Palestinian camps in Lebanon,” said Al Jazeera. “The NNA said the army cordoned off the area, preventing people from entering or leaving the camp.”

    How many more must die before Iran leaves Lebanon?

    Is a partition inevitable?

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/huge-blast-rocks-refugee-camp-lebanon-large-casualties-feared

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    @A123

    Nonsense. Isreal blew up the fertilizer storage a year or two back and some fairly credible evidence was posted that that was a low-yield nuke. Anything that happens to Lebanon is Israeli-led. Showing pictures of an explosion is evidence Iran did it? You're hilarious, 123. Israel doesn't have the courage to go into Lebanon, so they use terror tactics. This is more of the same. But I have an open mind. Where did the "evidence" come from? Because Iran has no reason to bomb Lebanon, Israel, many.

    Replies: @A123

    , @Mulga Mumblebrain
    @A123

    Perhaps the MOST Evil Sabbat Goy, ever, gloating over the prospect of civil war in Lebanon. The Zionazis really attract the scum de la scum.

  5. Reply to AP in the previous thread:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-170/#comment-5062526

    Wokism is the newest American Protestant religious revival. It very closely parallels American Protestantism. Catholics becoming woke is analogous to Catholics converting to charismatic Protestant faiths, as is occurring in Brazil.

    Here a Protestant minister highlights the specific Protestant characteristics of Wokeness:

    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.

    Latin American liberation theology met with approval in the United States, but its use of “Marxist concepts” led in the mid-1980s to an admonition by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF). While stating that “in itself, the expression ‘theology of liberation’ is a thoroughly valid term”, the prefect Cardinal Ratzinger rejected certain forms of Latin American liberation theology for focusing on institutionalized or systemic sin and for identifying Catholic Church hierarchy in South America as members of the same privileged class that had long been oppressing indigenous populations from the arrival of Pizarro onward.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

    —-

    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.

    *Their governance over Amerindians in the Southern Cone was even praised by Rousseau, Voltaire and Montesquieu.

    —-

    As for Protestantism causing the French Revolution, the root causes of dissatisfaction with the traditional Catholic order were rather similar in France, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Latin America; which led to similar Anti-Clerical sentiments and movements – though the degree of success and violence varies by country and era.

    It is fine to reject the anti-clericals, but simply blaming Protestantism without understanding their dissatisfaction with Integralism will merely lead to a Québécois-like Silent Revolution for any future neo-traditionalist régime.

    —-

    I have no antipathy towards Catholics, but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:

    I want to suggest a principle of immigration priority that should, I hope, be broadly acceptable or at least intriguing for all right-thinking persons concerned that current American immigration policy is racist and classist, explicitly or implicitly, de jure or de facto. The principle is to give lexical priority to confirmed Catholics, all of whom will jump immediately to the head of the queue. Yes, some will convert in order to gain admission; this is a feature, not a bug.

    This principle will disproportionately favor immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Latin America. (Note here that the priority is for actual Catholics, not for applicants from “historically Catholic countries”; relatively few Western Europeans will pass through the eye of the needle, and the Irish will be almost totally excluded). It will disproportionately favor the poor, and will draw no distinction between those seeking asylum based on a fear of persecution, and those fleeing “mere” economic hardship. It will in effect require opening the southern border of the United States, although immigration from Canada will rightly become a rare and difficult event, at least if we do not count a small subset of Quebecois.

    I venture to say that any opposition to this proposal almost necessarily defends some alternative principle of immigration priority that allocates fewer spots to non-whites and to the poor, and is thus a troubling indicator of racism and classism infesting whoever voices that opposition. We must overcome the know-nothing bigotry of the past. As the superb blog Semiduplex observes, Catholics need to rethink the nation-state. We have come a long way, but we still have far to go — towards the eventual formation of the Empire of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and ultimately the world government required by natural law.

    https://mirrorofjustice.blogs.com/mirrorofjustice/2019/07/a-principle-of-immigration-priority-.html

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:
     
    I'm not sure if Vermeule isn't trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he's serious, he's obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that's just delusional.

    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church, as if there had been no reason for discontent at all. A lot of them also don't seem to realize that the all-controlling rule of the papacy over the church (with its pretensions to power over secular rulers) was a creation of the later 11th century, which from the start had aroused intense criticism from contemporaries and led to extremely bitter conflicts. Arguably much of the reformation was destructive (and I don't have much sympathy for something like Calvinism either), but the anti-Rome sentiment had very deep roots, for good reasons.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Hyperborean

    , @AP
    @Hyperborean


    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.
     
    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn't de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ruinas-saomiguel13.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/19510452_303.jpg

    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    "These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay's Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans' shops, and schools of music and painting."

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeYBdGN7OQ

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-"gods" to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    "A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer."

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.


    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.
     
    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Hyperborean, @Aedib, @Yevardian

  6. There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird


    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.
     
    Something of an over simplification on your part.

    A wealthly husband can support more children. Thus, you want enough Citizen 4-year+ graduates to fill those economic roles. Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.

    Four year degrees in the arts that are potential bastions of "victim studies" (gender, ethnic, etc.) should be shutdown entirely. Science & business fields could be reviewed by the number of "Post Docs" stuck serving as underpaid adjunct lecturers.
    ____

    Another improvement that would help -- Students Loans should only be available based on future earning potential. "High Debt / Low Pay" blocks family formation. AOC's loan forgiveness is a silly idea. Prevention is the sensible answer.

    There is a concept problem with the idea of Student Loans. Some % of students inevitably start but never finish a degree program. This can also lead to the "High Debt / Low Pay" trap. Ideally people should save first and then go to University.

    Public Universities with much lower tuition do well in the Southern U.S. However these also come with their own political complications.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen

    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @songbird

    Steelmanning their argument produces a different conclusion. "Education" spending means more and more free childcare. The apotheosis of which would be free year round boarding school, with everything included, up to the age of 21. Obviously that is not going to happen, but you can see how having more children would be easier and easier the closer the government got to offering that service.

    Replies: @songbird

  7. @songbird
    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.

    Replies: @A123, @Triteleia Laxa

    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.

    Something of an over simplification on your part.

    A wealthly husband can support more children. Thus, you want enough Citizen 4-year+ graduates to fill those economic roles. Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.

    Four year degrees in the arts that are potential bastions of “victim studies” (gender, ethnic, etc.) should be shutdown entirely. Science & business fields could be reviewed by the number of “Post Docs” stuck serving as underpaid adjunct lecturers.
    ____

    Another improvement that would help — Students Loans should only be available based on future earning potential. “High Debt / Low Pay” blocks family formation. AOC’s loan forgiveness is a silly idea. Prevention is the sensible answer.

    There is a concept problem with the idea of Student Loans. Some % of students inevitably start but never finish a degree program. This can also lead to the “High Debt / Low Pay” trap. Ideally people should save first and then go to University.

    Public Universities with much lower tuition do well in the Southern U.S. However these also come with their own political complications.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
    @A123


    Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.
     
    Probably takes less than two minutes to flash the rom of a good surgical robot, albeit longer to build on the assembly line. A lot of diagnosis could be done with the aid of computer automation, better testing, and more listening to the patient.

    I'd much rather have such a system, where I was interacting with highly intelligent two year specialists, who might spend 20 minutes on a problem, rather than middling 8 year plus doctors, who I have to see, just to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.

    And as a fringe benefit, the two year specialists, would have more nimble minds, due to being younger, and would also have higher fertility, so that future generations would probably have more, rather than run out of them.

    Surveys have consistently found that people remember little of anything from education. Its most important function is to be a sorting mechanism, but this could be handled much more efficiently, in a shorter time frame.

    Some of the difference could be made up by track education in high school. The rest by apprenticeship and testing.

    BTW, James Watt never got a college education.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @iffen
    @A123

    Or we could just sit back and let the breeders breed.

  8. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    Reply to AP in the previous thread:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-170/#comment-5062526

    Wokism is the newest American Protestant religious revival. It very closely parallels American Protestantism. Catholics becoming woke is analogous to Catholics converting to charismatic Protestant faiths, as is occurring in Brazil.

     


    Here a Protestant minister highlights the specific Protestant characteristics of Wokeness:
     
    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.

    Latin American liberation theology met with approval in the United States, but its use of “Marxist concepts” led in the mid-1980s to an admonition by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF). While stating that “in itself, the expression ‘theology of liberation’ is a thoroughly valid term”, the prefect Cardinal Ratzinger rejected certain forms of Latin American liberation theology for focusing on institutionalized or systemic sin and for identifying Catholic Church hierarchy in South America as members of the same privileged class that had long been oppressing indigenous populations from the arrival of Pizarro onward.
     
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

    —-

    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.

    *Their governance over Amerindians in the Southern Cone was even praised by Rousseau, Voltaire and Montesquieu.

    —-

    As for Protestantism causing the French Revolution, the root causes of dissatisfaction with the traditional Catholic order were rather similar in France, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Latin America; which led to similar Anti-Clerical sentiments and movements – though the degree of success and violence varies by country and era.

    It is fine to reject the anti-clericals, but simply blaming Protestantism without understanding their dissatisfaction with Integralism will merely lead to a Québécois-like Silent Revolution for any future neo-traditionalist régime.

    —-

    I have no antipathy towards Catholics, but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:

    I want to suggest a principle of immigration priority that should, I hope, be broadly acceptable or at least intriguing for all right-thinking persons concerned that current American immigration policy is racist and classist, explicitly or implicitly, de jure or de facto. The principle is to give lexical priority to confirmed Catholics, all of whom will jump immediately to the head of the queue. Yes, some will convert in order to gain admission; this is a feature, not a bug.

    This principle will disproportionately favor immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Latin America. (Note here that the priority is for actual Catholics, not for applicants from “historically Catholic countries”; relatively few Western Europeans will pass through the eye of the needle, and the Irish will be almost totally excluded). It will disproportionately favor the poor, and will draw no distinction between those seeking asylum based on a fear of persecution, and those fleeing “mere” economic hardship. It will in effect require opening the southern border of the United States, although immigration from Canada will rightly become a rare and difficult event, at least if we do not count a small subset of Quebecois.

    I venture to say that any opposition to this proposal almost necessarily defends some alternative principle of immigration priority that allocates fewer spots to non-whites and to the poor, and is thus a troubling indicator of racism and classism infesting whoever voices that opposition. We must overcome the know-nothing bigotry of the past. As the superb blog Semiduplex observes, Catholics need to rethink the nation-state. We have come a long way, but we still have far to go — towards the eventual formation of the Empire of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and ultimately the world government required by natural law.
     
    https://mirrorofjustice.blogs.com/mirrorofjustice/2019/07/a-principle-of-immigration-priority-.html

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:

    I’m not sure if Vermeule isn’t trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he’s serious, he’s obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that’s just delusional.

    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church, as if there had been no reason for discontent at all. A lot of them also don’t seem to realize that the all-controlling rule of the papacy over the church (with its pretensions to power over secular rulers) was a creation of the later 11th century, which from the start had aroused intense criticism from contemporaries and led to extremely bitter conflicts. Arguably much of the reformation was destructive (and I don’t have much sympathy for something like Calvinism either), but the anti-Rome sentiment had very deep roots, for good reasons.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church.
     
    Integralism is not mainly based on the analysis of a historically specific golden age, and deducing what political factors made it great, but on deduction of the appropriate kind of political regime from the eternal truths about human nature and the telos of human life it claims are found in the teaching of the Catholic Church, mostly based on the Bible, Aristotle and Plato with some later commentary and teaching which is in the same tradition (Aquinas, Bellarmine, some of the Popes and councils).

    Imo it is more akin to what Evola is doing in his books about politics, how things should be based on transcendent Tradition, than something that has obvious practical applications at the moment. Using it seems to be mainly motivated by a desire to find alternatives to Liberalism, because the latter looks like it is crumbling.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    I’m not sure if Vermeule isn’t trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he’s serious, he’s obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that’s just delusional.
     
    Granted, regarding immigration this is the only direct statement from Vermeule that I can find from skimming the internet, so it is hard to know how much he really means it - but as to his general legal philosophy he seems genuine.

    Vermeule calls papal teaching on integralism “irreformable.” Whether it is or isn’t is not a question for me to take up, but it does indicate how seriously he takes this. At that same conference, Gladden Pappin, an integralist academic and close collaborator of Vermeule’s praised the Chinese Communist regime for having a ministry that clearly lays out what the spiritual goals of a society should be — this, by contrast to the US, which has no such office:

    He thinks the US should have such an office, and that it should be the Catholic Church. How do we get to that place in a minority-Catholic country, in which the Catholic Church is hemorrhaging members? They don’t tell us.

    Well, actually, Vermeule does tell us. Until such time as they can take over, he told the Notre Dame audience, integralist Catholics ought to march through the governing institutions, with the long-term goal of overturning liberalism
     

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/what-do-integralists-want-reactionary-catholicism/

    Dreher includes some telling extracts from a book called Integralism: A Manual of Political Philosophy, by Thomas Crean and Alan Fimister. While I don't know the authors and therefore how prominent they are, they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.

    ---

    Vermeule personally seems a bit tone-deaf:


    Finally, unlike legal liberalism, common-good constitutionalism does not suffer from a horror of political domination and hierarchy, because it sees that law is parental, a wise teacher and an inculcator of good habits. Just authority in rulers can be exercised for the good of subjects, if necessary even against the subjects’ own perceptions of what is best for them—perceptions that may change over time anyway, as the law teaches, habituates, and re-forms them. Subjects will come to thank the ruler whose legal strictures, possibly experienced at first as coercive, encourage subjects to form more authentic desires for the individual and common goods, better habits, and beliefs that better track and promote communal well-being.
     
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/common-good-constitutionalism/609037/

    -----

    I am not unsympathetic to their perspective, in a general sense. Although American history as praxis has plenty of sources one can draw from as inspiration, in theory the American philosophical canon doesn't really have any deep conservative sources in a continental European sense. So seeing classical liberals and libertarians constantly making 'The Conservative Case for X' while being unable to have a theoretical language for one's frustrations and objections, especially after the failures of the last decades, can't be very helpful.

    But to durably hold power (and not merely capture it) they need some sort of engagement with the concerns of non-Catholic and secular Americans.

    Replies: @German_reader

  9. @German_reader
    Spain’s left-wing government has called for toys to go on strike against sexism:
    https://spainsnews.com/toys-go-on-strike-to-end-sexism/

    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).

    And many thanks again to Ron Unz for having created a new Open thread, it's very generous, and I think I can say for all regular commenters that we appreciate it very much!

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Thulean Friend

    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).

    I think the fact that Catholicism is either relatively based (or in those Integralist forms very based) isn’t nonsense in itself, but what is being highlighted here is that many people in nominally Catholic countries reject it or strongly rebel against it. Spain is a classic example because to establish the National Catholic state and Franco’s absolute rule they had to fight a hard civil war against half of the country, so that following the establishment of a liberal democratic system there has been a strong counter reaction.

    Wokeness, in terms of intersectionality, was created in an Anglo-North American context, so it isn’t surprising that the most intersectional countries are the US and Canada, then Australia, New Zealand, UK and then that it has spread out into the rest of Europe from there.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    but what is being highlighted here is that many people in nominally Catholic countries reject it or strongly rebel against it.
     
    That's true, but if so much of the population reacts against Catholic hegemony by embracing the most deranged kind of left-wing activism, it's not really a system that has achieved its goal of inoculating people against left-wing fanaticism, as proponents of "based Catholicism" would claim.
    Personally I think Catholicism vs Protestantism doesn't explain all that much in today's Western Europe, other factors seem to be more decisive.
  10. @songbird
    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.

    Replies: @A123, @Triteleia Laxa

    Steelmanning their argument produces a different conclusion. “Education” spending means more and more free childcare. The apotheosis of which would be free year round boarding school, with everything included, up to the age of 21. Obviously that is not going to happen, but you can see how having more children would be easier and easier the closer the government got to offering that service.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Seems to be mainly directed at subsidies for tertiary education. Japan is in the midst of its own student loan crisis, with similar horror stories of young women turning to prostitution because they can't afford to pay the loans back on the paltry salary that they make.

    Getting more young ladies into prostitution should probably be considered another benefit for the middle-aged who conspire to protect their positions by promoting credentialism.

  11. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).
     
    I think the fact that Catholicism is either relatively based (or in those Integralist forms very based) isn't nonsense in itself, but what is being highlighted here is that many people in nominally Catholic countries reject it or strongly rebel against it. Spain is a classic example because to establish the National Catholic state and Franco's absolute rule they had to fight a hard civil war against half of the country, so that following the establishment of a liberal democratic system there has been a strong counter reaction.

    Wokeness, in terms of intersectionality, was created in an Anglo-North American context, so it isn't surprising that the most intersectional countries are the US and Canada, then Australia, New Zealand, UK and then that it has spread out into the rest of Europe from there.

    Replies: @German_reader

    but what is being highlighted here is that many people in nominally Catholic countries reject it or strongly rebel against it.

    That’s true, but if so much of the population reacts against Catholic hegemony by embracing the most deranged kind of left-wing activism, it’s not really a system that has achieved its goal of inoculating people against left-wing fanaticism, as proponents of “based Catholicism” would claim.
    Personally I think Catholicism vs Protestantism doesn’t explain all that much in today’s Western Europe, other factors seem to be more decisive.

    • Agree: iffen
  12. @A123
    @songbird


    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.
     
    Something of an over simplification on your part.

    A wealthly husband can support more children. Thus, you want enough Citizen 4-year+ graduates to fill those economic roles. Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.

    Four year degrees in the arts that are potential bastions of "victim studies" (gender, ethnic, etc.) should be shutdown entirely. Science & business fields could be reviewed by the number of "Post Docs" stuck serving as underpaid adjunct lecturers.
    ____

    Another improvement that would help -- Students Loans should only be available based on future earning potential. "High Debt / Low Pay" blocks family formation. AOC's loan forgiveness is a silly idea. Prevention is the sensible answer.

    There is a concept problem with the idea of Student Loans. Some % of students inevitably start but never finish a degree program. This can also lead to the "High Debt / Low Pay" trap. Ideally people should save first and then go to University.

    Public Universities with much lower tuition do well in the Southern U.S. However these also come with their own political complications.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen

    Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.

    Probably takes less than two minutes to flash the rom of a good surgical robot, albeit longer to build on the assembly line. A lot of diagnosis could be done with the aid of computer automation, better testing, and more listening to the patient.

    [MORE]

    I’d much rather have such a system, where I was interacting with highly intelligent two year specialists, who might spend 20 minutes on a problem, rather than middling 8 year plus doctors, who I have to see, just to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.

    And as a fringe benefit, the two year specialists, would have more nimble minds, due to being younger, and would also have higher fertility, so that future generations would probably have more, rather than run out of them.

    Surveys have consistently found that people remember little of anything from education. Its most important function is to be a sorting mechanism, but this could be handled much more efficiently, in a shorter time frame.

    Some of the difference could be made up by track education in high school. The rest by apprenticeship and testing.

    BTW, James Watt never got a college education.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird


    to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.
     
    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program. He touched my chest with a stethoscope for less than a minute and the only other person who made any actual contact with me was the nurse who attached a blood pressure sleeve to my arm and an oxygen meter to my finger.

    If your problem isn't on a main branch of that diagnosis tree I guess I don't want to know what happens.

    Replies: @A123

  13. And many thanks again to Ron Unz for having created a new Open thread, it’s very generous, and I think I can say for all regular commenters that we appreciate it very much!

    It’s like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.

    It wasn't the money. They didn't want you to shoot your eye out.

    Replies: @Max Demian

  14. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:
     
    I'm not sure if Vermeule isn't trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he's serious, he's obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that's just delusional.

    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church, as if there had been no reason for discontent at all. A lot of them also don't seem to realize that the all-controlling rule of the papacy over the church (with its pretensions to power over secular rulers) was a creation of the later 11th century, which from the start had aroused intense criticism from contemporaries and led to extremely bitter conflicts. Arguably much of the reformation was destructive (and I don't have much sympathy for something like Calvinism either), but the anti-Rome sentiment had very deep roots, for good reasons.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Hyperborean

    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church.

    Integralism is not mainly based on the analysis of a historically specific golden age, and deducing what political factors made it great, but on deduction of the appropriate kind of political regime from the eternal truths about human nature and the telos of human life it claims are found in the teaching of the Catholic Church, mostly based on the Bible, Aristotle and Plato with some later commentary and teaching which is in the same tradition (Aquinas, Bellarmine, some of the Popes and councils).

    Imo it is more akin to what Evola is doing in his books about politics, how things should be based on transcendent Tradition, than something that has obvious practical applications at the moment. Using it seems to be mainly motivated by a desire to find alternatives to Liberalism, because the latter looks like it is crumbling.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts

    Thanks. I have to admit I know very little about Integralism, especially its present-day proponents...do they ever get more specific about the kind of state they would like to construct? Do they have any historical models at all, or is it just a vague appeal to principles? I don't think a return to throne and altar monarchism could be seen as plausible today by any but the most deluded, but what are the alternatives? Some kind of authoritarian corporatism with a special role for the Catholic church, like Franco tried to implement?

    Replies: @Coconuts

  15. Another horror idea: find a near double of Tony Blair, who I think must be the slimiest-looking person in history, and try to bridge the rest of the gap with make-up and acting. Turn him into a character actor, doing the sort of roles that made Peter Lorre, Christopher Lee, and Bela Lugosi famous.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @songbird

    "Dear audience, sit back, relax and watch some true horror."

  16. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church.
     
    Integralism is not mainly based on the analysis of a historically specific golden age, and deducing what political factors made it great, but on deduction of the appropriate kind of political regime from the eternal truths about human nature and the telos of human life it claims are found in the teaching of the Catholic Church, mostly based on the Bible, Aristotle and Plato with some later commentary and teaching which is in the same tradition (Aquinas, Bellarmine, some of the Popes and councils).

    Imo it is more akin to what Evola is doing in his books about politics, how things should be based on transcendent Tradition, than something that has obvious practical applications at the moment. Using it seems to be mainly motivated by a desire to find alternatives to Liberalism, because the latter looks like it is crumbling.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Thanks. I have to admit I know very little about Integralism, especially its present-day proponents…do they ever get more specific about the kind of state they would like to construct? Do they have any historical models at all, or is it just a vague appeal to principles? I don’t think a return to throne and altar monarchism could be seen as plausible today by any but the most deluded, but what are the alternatives? Some kind of authoritarian corporatism with a special role for the Catholic church, like Franco tried to implement?

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader

    AFAIK the French ones want to recreate a kind of decentralised monarchy based on the Action Francaise tradition. I haven't paid much attention to the US ones because I thought at this stage they are probably more about putting out powerful takes and trolling people like Dreher.

    The book by Fr. Thomas Crean and Alan Fimister 'Integralism' is a good introduction to the theory, but I read it as being about core political theory and philosophy, rather than something setting out a contemporary political program. I found it informative for understanding Catholic historic political philosophy, and also things like Fascist ideology, the Portuguese and pre-war French right etc. I suspect Liberal Catholics didn't like anyone drawing attention to this older Catholic theory and so didn't like the book, even though much of the content would have been banal in the context of 1940s or 50s Catholicism.

    In terms of real world regimes Salazar seems to be a reference, but this kind of thing is still mainly cultural and ideological at this time and appears to be a small trend even within Catholicism (like Bronze Age Pervert for Catholics) so they are probably still thinking about things like this.

    From what I know of Franco, he ruled as a kind of absolute monarch 'by the grace of God' and non-Catholics didn't have full citizens rights, Spanish bishops as a body led the arguments against recognising freedom of religious belief at the 2nd Vatican council in the early 60s for example. But this was unusual in that the regime came out of a major civil war.

  17. @Triteleia Laxa
    @songbird

    Steelmanning their argument produces a different conclusion. "Education" spending means more and more free childcare. The apotheosis of which would be free year round boarding school, with everything included, up to the age of 21. Obviously that is not going to happen, but you can see how having more children would be easier and easier the closer the government got to offering that service.

    Replies: @songbird

    Seems to be mainly directed at subsidies for tertiary education. Japan is in the midst of its own student loan crisis, with similar horror stories of young women turning to prostitution because they can’t afford to pay the loans back on the paltry salary that they make.

    Getting more young ladies into prostitution should probably be considered another benefit for the middle-aged who conspire to protect their positions by promoting credentialism.

  18. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:
     
    I'm not sure if Vermeule isn't trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he's serious, he's obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that's just delusional.

    Regarding the general issue, I think a lot of Catholic conservatives really have an absurdly idealised view of the medieval and early modern Catholic church, as if there had been no reason for discontent at all. A lot of them also don't seem to realize that the all-controlling rule of the papacy over the church (with its pretensions to power over secular rulers) was a creation of the later 11th century, which from the start had aroused intense criticism from contemporaries and led to extremely bitter conflicts. Arguably much of the reformation was destructive (and I don't have much sympathy for something like Calvinism either), but the anti-Rome sentiment had very deep roots, for good reasons.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Hyperborean

    I’m not sure if Vermeule isn’t trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he’s serious, he’s obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that’s just delusional.

    Granted, regarding immigration this is the only direct statement from Vermeule that I can find from skimming the internet, so it is hard to know how much he really means it – but as to his general legal philosophy he seems genuine.

    Vermeule calls papal teaching on integralism “irreformable.” Whether it is or isn’t is not a question for me to take up, but it does indicate how seriously he takes this. At that same conference, Gladden Pappin, an integralist academic and close collaborator of Vermeule’s praised the Chinese Communist regime for having a ministry that clearly lays out what the spiritual goals of a society should be — this, by contrast to the US, which has no such office:

    He thinks the US should have such an office, and that it should be the Catholic Church. How do we get to that place in a minority-Catholic country, in which the Catholic Church is hemorrhaging members? They don’t tell us.

    Well, actually, Vermeule does tell us. Until such time as they can take over, he told the Notre Dame audience, integralist Catholics ought to march through the governing institutions, with the long-term goal of overturning liberalism

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/what-do-integralists-want-reactionary-catholicism/

    Dreher includes some telling extracts from a book called Integralism: A Manual of Political Philosophy, by Thomas Crean and Alan Fimister. While I don’t know the authors and therefore how prominent they are, they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.

    Vermeule personally seems a bit tone-deaf:

    Finally, unlike legal liberalism, common-good constitutionalism does not suffer from a horror of political domination and hierarchy, because it sees that law is parental, a wise teacher and an inculcator of good habits. Just authority in rulers can be exercised for the good of subjects, if necessary even against the subjects’ own perceptions of what is best for them—perceptions that may change over time anyway, as the law teaches, habituates, and re-forms them. Subjects will come to thank the ruler whose legal strictures, possibly experienced at first as coercive, encourage subjects to form more authentic desires for the individual and common goods, better habits, and beliefs that better track and promote communal well-being.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/common-good-constitutionalism/609037/

    —–

    I am not unsympathetic to their perspective, in a general sense. Although American history as praxis has plenty of sources one can draw from as inspiration, in theory the American philosophical canon doesn’t really have any deep conservative sources in a continental European sense. So seeing classical liberals and libertarians constantly making ‘The Conservative Case for X’ while being unable to have a theoretical language for one’s frustrations and objections, especially after the failures of the last decades, can’t be very helpful.

    But to durably hold power (and not merely capture it) they need some sort of engagement with the concerns of non-Catholic and secular Americans.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.
     
    These people are demented Larpers. Outside maybe of the papal state, such a thing never existed anywhere even in medieval Europe. They should remember what happened to popes like Gregory VII and Boniface VIII, when they overreached in their dealings with secular powers and tried subordinating the temporal power to the spiritual power.
    I read the excerpts in Dreher's article and I'm completely unsympathetic to the Integralist programme as outlined there. These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran's system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant "anything goes" liberalism.

    Replies: @A123, @Hyperborean, @Coconuts, @silviosilver

  19. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    I’m not sure if Vermeule isn’t trolling with his comments about his preferred immigration system. But if he’s serious, he’s obviously demented. Not just from a nationalist or racialist perspective, but more generally the idea that you could create a kind of Catholic theocracy in the US, that’s just delusional.
     
    Granted, regarding immigration this is the only direct statement from Vermeule that I can find from skimming the internet, so it is hard to know how much he really means it - but as to his general legal philosophy he seems genuine.

    Vermeule calls papal teaching on integralism “irreformable.” Whether it is or isn’t is not a question for me to take up, but it does indicate how seriously he takes this. At that same conference, Gladden Pappin, an integralist academic and close collaborator of Vermeule’s praised the Chinese Communist regime for having a ministry that clearly lays out what the spiritual goals of a society should be — this, by contrast to the US, which has no such office:

    He thinks the US should have such an office, and that it should be the Catholic Church. How do we get to that place in a minority-Catholic country, in which the Catholic Church is hemorrhaging members? They don’t tell us.

    Well, actually, Vermeule does tell us. Until such time as they can take over, he told the Notre Dame audience, integralist Catholics ought to march through the governing institutions, with the long-term goal of overturning liberalism
     

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/what-do-integralists-want-reactionary-catholicism/

    Dreher includes some telling extracts from a book called Integralism: A Manual of Political Philosophy, by Thomas Crean and Alan Fimister. While I don't know the authors and therefore how prominent they are, they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.

    ---

    Vermeule personally seems a bit tone-deaf:


    Finally, unlike legal liberalism, common-good constitutionalism does not suffer from a horror of political domination and hierarchy, because it sees that law is parental, a wise teacher and an inculcator of good habits. Just authority in rulers can be exercised for the good of subjects, if necessary even against the subjects’ own perceptions of what is best for them—perceptions that may change over time anyway, as the law teaches, habituates, and re-forms them. Subjects will come to thank the ruler whose legal strictures, possibly experienced at first as coercive, encourage subjects to form more authentic desires for the individual and common goods, better habits, and beliefs that better track and promote communal well-being.
     
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/common-good-constitutionalism/609037/

    -----

    I am not unsympathetic to their perspective, in a general sense. Although American history as praxis has plenty of sources one can draw from as inspiration, in theory the American philosophical canon doesn't really have any deep conservative sources in a continental European sense. So seeing classical liberals and libertarians constantly making 'The Conservative Case for X' while being unable to have a theoretical language for one's frustrations and objections, especially after the failures of the last decades, can't be very helpful.

    But to durably hold power (and not merely capture it) they need some sort of engagement with the concerns of non-Catholic and secular Americans.

    Replies: @German_reader

    they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.

    These people are demented Larpers. Outside maybe of the papal state, such a thing never existed anywhere even in medieval Europe. They should remember what happened to popes like Gregory VII and Boniface VIII, when they overreached in their dealings with secular powers and tried subordinating the temporal power to the spiritual power.
    I read the excerpts in Dreher’s article and I’m completely unsympathetic to the Integralist programme as outlined there. These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran’s system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant “anything goes” liberalism.

    • Replies: @A123
    @German_reader


    I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing,
     
    You are confusing Left and Right (again).

    Leftoids want liberal Catholic masters like Pope Francis. Or, possibly lesser forms of evil like the Church of England.

    The idea of a "State Church" is anathema to Christian Populists. No one on the GOP MAGA side is demented enough to embrace a government controlled church.

    PEACE 😇
    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader

    The de Maistre quote is particularly amusing given that the 'Enrichissez-vous' July Monarchy and the populist Napoleon III both lasted longer than the Bourbon Legitimists.


    By contrast, the radicals, the extremists, the idealists, the critics, the dissenters, the activists of social change, have in my lifetime been far more realistic, and simultaneously more imaginative, about the capacious and flexible limits of political and legal change. The activists who pushed for same-sex marriage, even when Congress and dozens of states had passed statutes barring it - and who, after the Obergefell decision, turned on a dime to promoting transgenderism; the Trump voters who ignored the ironclad predictions of their betters; Chris Rufo, who has achieved the nearly unimaginable in the wars over critical race theory and public education — all these have had a sense of the possible, a breadth of vision, that the myopic realist can only imagine possessing.

    In many of these cases, furthermore, the activists — while of course claiming to represent the real will of the people, or the best of our national ideals, or what have you — formed a tiny minority of the population, even a tiny minority of the intellectual class. One of the standard mistakes underpinning the futility trope is to imagine that the political views and preferences of national majorities set the terms of political action. In fact, on most (many? all?) issues national majorities may well have no real views or preferences. At a minimum, as our political history since 1989 testifies over and over, some unpredictable number of the public’s seemingly fixed views are weakly held and malleable from above, susceptible to elite influence, and quick to acquiesce to changes in law or political practice put into place by tiny minorities with access to the crucial levers of power. De Maistre once said that despite the events of 1789 and after, “four or five men can give France a king.” The mechanisms underpinning this observation have been worked out as a major theme of political science and public-choice economics since Mancur Olson’s work on the logic of collective action. Committed minorities have often been able to set the terms of political life for large, relatively apathetic majorities, especially in a system like our own that offers many points of access for minority influence, such as the courts.
     

    https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/it-cant-happen-or-the-poverty-of

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Coconuts
    @German_reader

    I remember reading Dreher's article, it is a bit weasly, given that Britain until the Catholic emancipation in the 1830s would probably count as a Protestant Integralist regime and in certain ways still is (the unwritten constitution is supposed to be the Protestant version of 'Natural Law' and the queen still reigns based on it), Franco's Spain was an Integralist regime, there was one in the Dominican Republic IIRC and so on.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @silviosilver
    @German_reader


    These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran’s system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant “anything goes” liberalism.
     
    I think they're coming at it from Belloc's "Europe is the faith, the faith is Europe" angle. They're looking to their own traditions - even if they were raised Protestant or atheist or whatever - for some way out of the madness they witness in their world. Trad Cath types often market their cultural offerings attractively, so it's not that surprising that some people will investigate it on the off chance that it does indeed contain some magic ingredient that we have tragically overlooked in our haste to embrace every shiny new thing thrust our way.

    Personally, whenever I've examined it, I've come away very disappointed. It's not having to fake belief in things like "the real presence" in the eucharist that bothers me, it's that the people in Trad Cath talk about religious issues like this all the time - about this and about virtually nothing else. My hopes that the people may have retained some religious faith but were "really" in it for the identity politics have been quickly dashed every time. Well, that shouldn't be surprising - it's a religion, not a cultural or political movement, and I'm the fool for thinking it could possibly have been otherwise. My excuse is desperate people do desperate things. These people occasionally make their way over to blogs like this one, so my advice to any identitarian who encounters one of them is: do not get your hopes up!

    If Trad Cath is a waste of time, the idea of an ethno-religion remains very attractive. The problem is there is so little on offer. Paganism is an even worse option than Christianity. If you don't believe in Christianity but you want to embrace it as your ancestral faith, you don't have to really do anything. No one's going to seriously demand you prove your faith - or if they do, it's somewhat acceptable to just tell them to fuck off. But going into paganism would be a bit like converting to Islam - I think you really would face some pressure to prove your conversion is sincere. Who the hell is seriously going to pretend to believe in Zeus or Jupiter? And I don't know how anyone can attend those pagan revival ceremonies without feeling daffy.
  20. I’m sad I missed this debate with AP.

    outlier among Catholic

    The most politically “woke” country of Western Europe, is surely Republic of Ireland, which has been one of the most traditionally Catholic.

    That’s not to say, Catholicism causes “wokeness” – there is obviously no correlation in Europe, as Italy is more “anti-Woke” politically.

    That’s a guideline which any historian should say. That important information is in the small details and particular circumstances of how the religious sect matches other factors, in these countries.

    accepting refugees (i.e, population

    This is one of few topics of modern politics, where Jesus says clear and unambiguous things, almost written like an instruction guide – that you should help strangers, and that your neighbor is the person who is good to you, not the person who is related to you or part of your tribe.

    Here Jesus is perhaps almost directly mappable to the refugee topic. In terms, of Jesus saying things like you should give your money to the poor – this can probably interpreted by both capitalists and socialists to support them in different ways. But when he says that your neighbor is not your tribemember, and to help them – this is difficult to re-interpret.

    for trans rights:

    Regardless that most people who are interested in this topic are secular.

    New Testament has perhaps some quite “woke” concordance views in this areas, implies that gender is not important. On the other hand, Origen, who has castrated himself, not exactly a church father.

    the pattern (among Europeans) has been Evangelical Protestants most right wing, then Catholics, and then mainline Protestants

    Because America is a different country, some of the social markers will be different.

    For example, in Northern Ireland, religious sects also partly indicate ethnic differences, as in Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, or Balkans. In Germany, the Catholic/Protestant might not indicate any ethnic differences. In USA, it might correlate to income levels. In e.g. Scotland, these correlation might be the opposite, than in USA, Brazil, etc.

    This is all local detail. And of course, the interesting things in this topic, are in the small local details.

    least woke countries remain Catholic and Orthodox ones. And not just backward ones in the Balkans, also Poland and Italy, even Czechia

    Compared to Western Europe, Poland is recently communist, poor, low income, country with a low standard of living. You would expect their politics to be different, regardless of a religion.

    Fact that Poland shares religion with many countries in Western Europe like Belgium or France, is probably the least relevant indicator for understanding their politics.

    In terms of Catholicism in Poland, the interesting thing is that Poland is still quite a religious country, while slavic nationalities in Russia are the most secular or non-religious population in Europe, and central Europe countries like Czech Republic are also quite non-religious.

    It’s something Polish historians would probably be able to answer only. But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker in Poland, and Poland is country often under partial or total occupation.

    This is, Catholicism is perhaps felt like a national characteristic in Poland, and Poles are often being threatened by occupation of the neighbours. In Germany, for comparison, you can see Catholicism/Protestantism doesn’t have any national connotation. Whereas in Ireland, Catholicism has a national connotation.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker
     
    That's the case for all of Eastern Europe, no? It's similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats. Religion becomes an identity marker and on some level tied to ethnicity. This is ironic given the low levels of genuine religiosity in these countries.

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I've seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church. Putin's public displays of Orthodox piety is not matched by the church-avoiding youth. Yet public declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin - without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    This pattern repeats itself in country after country in Eastern Europe. A naïve analysis would conclude that Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn't the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by 'disapora nationalists', projecting their fantasies onto societies that do not conform to their cherished ideals.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP, @Dmitry

    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    The most politically "woke" country in Western Europe is the Republic of Ireland
     
    Yes, but, Dim, have you been around the Irish? This is because they are so innocent and sweet. They are like children who want to be everybody's friend and be kind and gracious to everybody. They don't know how to say No. That's because they are completely unprotected and they don't have those hard*ss Germanic instincts. And because their tradition is one of the oldest in Northern Europe that stems from the likes of Pelagius.

    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I'm not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    Here Jesus is perhaps almost directly mappable to the refugee topic. In terms, of Jesus saying things like you should give your money to the poor – this can probably interpreted by both capitalists and socialists to support them in different ways. But when he says that your neighbor is not your tribemember, and to help them – this is difficult to re-interpret.
     
    I don't see how you draw this conclusion at all.

    If my neighbor is defined as "whoever does me a kindness," then why would that require me to accept a refugee (especially one of another race), whose presence in my country, far from doing me any sort of kindness, only burdens me?

    If a "refugee" (99% bogus) tries to break into my country and I catch him, I should have a right to kill him; by not killing him, I am doing him the kindness. And the best way he can "love me as his neighbor" in return for that kindness is to promise to stay out of my country (and to keep his promise).

    Also, just because Jesus said to love your neighbor (as he defined it) as yourself, it doesn't mean we can't also love our "normal" neighbors (as we define them) as well. That should be obvious. In the passage about "what is the law" that you are referring to, Jesus doesn't explicitly provide the instruction to love our parents or our children, but we can hardly infer from that omission that he doesn't want us to love our parents or children, so neither should we infer that we shouldn't love our own ethnic neighbors (if we want to).

    See, Dmitry, what was so hard about that?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  21. Germans self-shot with the Baerbock words and gas prices are skyrocketing thank to her dumb words about Nord-Stream 2.
    This green bimbo seems to make error and error and errors again. She should learn to stay silent.

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/European-Natural-Gas-Prices-Soar-On-Supply-Shortage-Fears.html

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Aedib


    Germans self-shot with the Baerbock words and gas prices are skyrocketing thank to her dumb words about Nord-Stream 2.
     
    I've been calling her the NATO Chatbot for this very reason. Just go to any NATO think-tank like the RAND corporation on virtually any topic and you will find zero daylight between her and what they say.

    That said, I don't think she's stupid. She's a US puppet, and knowingly one, for careerist reasons. That may be spineless, but it isn't stupid per se. She knows what she is doing, and is very cynical about it.

    Sholz is also not blameless here. He knows perfectly well what she represents. As I noted in the previous OT, selecting her is basically his way to try to reassure the Western establishment that his govt is going to play ball. Merkel was seen as too independent in her last years, and I was surprised how far she was willing to push the NS2 issue despite massive US pressure.

    I don't think Germany will cave now, but given its long track record of craven behaviour to America, nothing can sadly be off the table.

    Replies: @Aedib

  22. @German_reader
    Spain’s left-wing government has called for toys to go on strike against sexism:
    https://spainsnews.com/toys-go-on-strike-to-end-sexism/

    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense. This is a country where the last “heretic” was executed in the 1820s and which had a regime heavily favouring Catholicism a mere 50 years ago, and yet its left-wingers are among the craziest in Europe (and long have been).

    And many thanks again to Ron Unz for having created a new Open thread, it's very generous, and I think I can say for all regular commenters that we appreciate it very much!

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Thulean Friend

    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense.

    Iberia as a whole is exceptionally progressive for reasons that are not entirely clear to me. If you look at polling data for Greece or Italy on questions like immigration or similar hotbutton issues you will find a much greater right-wing bloc. The Iberian peninsula is basically the sunnier, browner and slightly more corrupt version of Sweden.

    I do not think this has much to do with Catholicism. It seems to be an outlier for domestic cultural reasons – certainly when compared to other Med countries. Sadly, I am not aware of a single person of Iberian origin on this blog, so we can’t get much insight into why this the case.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Thulean Friend


    Sadly, I am not aware of a single person of Iberian origin on this blog
     
    I am aware of one who was born on the Iberian side of the Basque Country. And he actually tried to provide some insights on that issue for the Basque case in the previous OT but I doubt he will be willing to repeat himself here for your honor's convenience. Not all of them extrapolated to the rest of Iberia anyway.
  23. @Aedib
    Germans self-shot with the Baerbock words and gas prices are skyrocketing thank to her dumb words about Nord-Stream 2.
    This green bimbo seems to make error and error and errors again. She should learn to stay silent.

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/European-Natural-Gas-Prices-Soar-On-Supply-Shortage-Fears.html

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Germans self-shot with the Baerbock words and gas prices are skyrocketing thank to her dumb words about Nord-Stream 2.

    I’ve been calling her the NATO Chatbot for this very reason. Just go to any NATO think-tank like the RAND corporation on virtually any topic and you will find zero daylight between her and what they say.

    That said, I don’t think she’s stupid. She’s a US puppet, and knowingly one, for careerist reasons. That may be spineless, but it isn’t stupid per se. She knows what she is doing, and is very cynical about it.

    Sholz is also not blameless here. He knows perfectly well what she represents. As I noted in the previous OT, selecting her is basically his way to try to reassure the Western establishment that his govt is going to play ball. Merkel was seen as too independent in her last years, and I was surprised how far she was willing to push the NS2 issue despite massive US pressure.

    I don’t think Germany will cave now, but given its long track record of craven behaviour to America, nothing can sadly be off the table.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Thulean Friend

    I'm astonished. German Atlanticists seems so subservient that they are even prone to sacrifice the German world-class industry in the altar of the Atlanticist ideology. They are mongrelizing and destroying the foundation of their formerly marvelous country.
    The most bizarre thing is that Russians are profiting by "not opening" NS2.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @sudden death

  24. AaronB says:

    Marx and to some extent Hegel, far from manifesting the genuine Christian principle, actually reverted to the exact principle of politics uber alles that Jesus

    If you read a lot of New Testament, it’s clear that “World to Come” is not only an immaterial world, but the speakers are sometimes speaking like they expect it will soon include the material world, just as in Marx the revolution will re-orient both the material world, as well as spiritual world (although only indexed for man).

    In the historical context of New Testament, Jews are in ambiguous waiting for the arrival of a Messianic age (in which there will be Justice and Peace), which can be very near.

    Among the Jews of this time, the materiality of the world to come, is ambiguous, or there was not the extent of our (modern peoples’) separation between the spiritual and material worlds.

    You can see this many times where the implication is not completely clear, if there will be material or immaterial rewards. For example, in Mark 10
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10&version=NIV

    Jesus is clearly saying that you should sell your material things and give to the poor. So this is a material claim, not less than in Marxism.

    But in the end of his answer to Peter, he implies that material things, will be compensated with eternal life in the Messianic Age.

    There is with Marx, a modern lowering of expectations, where the after the end of history, there will not be “eternal life”, but at best justice, equality, and a spiritual return of a non-alienated relation to society.

    However, as in Hegel, Marxism returns some of the ambiguity in the distinction between the material and spiritual life. This is where the material and spiritual are believed to be intermixed. In Marx, you labor activity and spiritual activity become the same. In Hegel , Napoleon is not just an ordinary political leader, but also representative of the world spirit, etc.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Dmitry

    All Bibles are the works of fallible mankind. Translations of Edits of Translations.

    -A- At best, they are genuine attempts to grasp the glory of The Father & The Son.
    -B- At worst, they can be outright manipulation.
    -C- Most often, they are between these two extremes.

    The King James Bible is an example of Case C. Part of the edit was an intentional tilt to make the work more friendly to the monarchy.

    Part of serious Protestant belief is that all parts of the various Bibles are not created equal. How to weight portions of texts from different sources is difficult. Blindly accepting a single version as perfect? That is the first step towards recreating the "Paid Indulgences" of the failed Catholic Church from ~500 AD.
    ___

    Also, consider KJV 1 is circa 1611, KJV 2 from 1769. Over reading a document that is 200-400 years old is perilous.

    Modern migration involving powered ships and even faster airplanes undercuts the assumptions of the ancient text. KJV verse applies to a basically similar "stranger" from the next town. There is no reason to believe it applies to unassimilable, violent Jihadists from another continent.

    A KJV 3 is badly over due. However, there is not enough cohesion at this point to update the document to exclude things that made sense in historical context but are crazy now. To paraphrase, "The Bible is Not a Suicide Pact for Christianity"

    PEACE 😇

    , @iffen
    @Dmitry

    This is where the material and spiritual are believed to be intermixed.

    Yeah, AaronB, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  25. @songbird
    @A123


    Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.
     
    Probably takes less than two minutes to flash the rom of a good surgical robot, albeit longer to build on the assembly line. A lot of diagnosis could be done with the aid of computer automation, better testing, and more listening to the patient.

    I'd much rather have such a system, where I was interacting with highly intelligent two year specialists, who might spend 20 minutes on a problem, rather than middling 8 year plus doctors, who I have to see, just to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.

    And as a fringe benefit, the two year specialists, would have more nimble minds, due to being younger, and would also have higher fertility, so that future generations would probably have more, rather than run out of them.

    Surveys have consistently found that people remember little of anything from education. Its most important function is to be a sorting mechanism, but this could be handled much more efficiently, in a shorter time frame.

    Some of the difference could be made up by track education in high school. The rest by apprenticeship and testing.

    BTW, James Watt never got a college education.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.

    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program. He touched my chest with a stethoscope for less than a minute and the only other person who made any actual contact with me was the nurse who attached a blood pressure sleeve to my arm and an oxygen meter to my finger.

    If your problem isn’t on a main branch of that diagnosis tree I guess I don’t want to know what happens.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program
     
    I have a very good relationship with my long term GP doctor. We have headed off a significant amount of unnecessary work by documenting some personal body chemistry that is well away from standard.

    A 2-year tech and BigPharma computer program would have called for pharmaceutical intervention that would have made things worse. Odds are that error would have been so damaging I would have needed liver transplant surgery.

    How to protect the medical profession from BigPharma is not a straight line connection to years of education. However, actual understanding is the best counter to computer error.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  26. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.
     
    These people are demented Larpers. Outside maybe of the papal state, such a thing never existed anywhere even in medieval Europe. They should remember what happened to popes like Gregory VII and Boniface VIII, when they overreached in their dealings with secular powers and tried subordinating the temporal power to the spiritual power.
    I read the excerpts in Dreher's article and I'm completely unsympathetic to the Integralist programme as outlined there. These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran's system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant "anything goes" liberalism.

    Replies: @A123, @Hyperborean, @Coconuts, @silviosilver

    I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing,

    You are confusing Left and Right (again).

    Leftoids want liberal Catholic masters like Pope Francis. Or, possibly lesser forms of evil like the Church of England.

    The idea of a “State Church” is anathema to Christian Populists. No one on the GOP MAGA side is demented enough to embrace a government controlled church.

    PEACE 😇

  27. @Dmitry
    I'm sad I missed this debate with AP.

    outlier among Catholic
     
    The most politically "woke" country of Western Europe, is surely Republic of Ireland, which has been one of the most traditionally Catholic.

    That's not to say, Catholicism causes "wokeness" - there is obviously no correlation in Europe, as Italy is more "anti-Woke" politically.

    That's a guideline which any historian should say. That important information is in the small details and particular circumstances of how the religious sect matches other factors, in these countries.


    accepting refugees (i.e, population
     
    This is one of few topics of modern politics, where Jesus says clear and unambiguous things, almost written like an instruction guide - that you should help strangers, and that your neighbor is the person who is good to you, not the person who is related to you or part of your tribe.

    Here Jesus is perhaps almost directly mappable to the refugee topic. In terms, of Jesus saying things like you should give your money to the poor - this can probably interpreted by both capitalists and socialists to support them in different ways. But when he says that your neighbor is not your tribemember, and to help them - this is difficult to re-interpret.


    for trans rights:
     
    Regardless that most people who are interested in this topic are secular.

    New Testament has perhaps some quite "woke" concordance views in this areas, implies that gender is not important. On the other hand, Origen, who has castrated himself, not exactly a church father.


    the pattern (among Europeans) has been Evangelical Protestants most right wing, then Catholics, and then mainline Protestants
     
    Because America is a different country, some of the social markers will be different.

    For example, in Northern Ireland, religious sects also partly indicate ethnic differences, as in Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, or Balkans. In Germany, the Catholic/Protestant might not indicate any ethnic differences. In USA, it might correlate to income levels. In e.g. Scotland, these correlation might be the opposite, than in USA, Brazil, etc.

    This is all local detail. And of course, the interesting things in this topic, are in the small local details.


    least woke countries remain Catholic and Orthodox ones. And not just backward ones in the Balkans, also Poland and Italy, even Czechia
     
    Compared to Western Europe, Poland is recently communist, poor, low income, country with a low standard of living. You would expect their politics to be different, regardless of a religion.

    Fact that Poland shares religion with many countries in Western Europe like Belgium or France, is probably the least relevant indicator for understanding their politics.

    In terms of Catholicism in Poland, the interesting thing is that Poland is still quite a religious country, while slavic nationalities in Russia are the most secular or non-religious population in Europe, and central Europe countries like Czech Republic are also quite non-religious.

    It's something Polish historians would probably be able to answer only. But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker in Poland, and Poland is country often under partial or total occupation.

    This is, Catholicism is perhaps felt like a national characteristic in Poland, and Poles are often being threatened by occupation of the neighbours. In Germany, for comparison, you can see Catholicism/Protestantism doesn't have any national connotation. Whereas in Ireland, Catholicism has a national connotation.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @LatW, @silviosilver

    But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker

    That’s the case for all of Eastern Europe, no? It’s similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats. Religion becomes an identity marker and on some level tied to ethnicity. This is ironic given the low levels of genuine religiosity in these countries.

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I’ve seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church. Putin’s public displays of Orthodox piety is not matched by the church-avoiding youth. Yet public declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin – without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    This pattern repeats itself in country after country in Eastern Europe. A naïve analysis would conclude that Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’, projecting their fantasies onto societies that do not conform to their cherished ideals.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats.
     
    I get your point about Serbs and Croats, but do Albanians really pretend to be that religious? They're not all even nominally Muslim, there's a non-trivial Christian minority, and many godless. Also you've got things like national hero Skanderbeg (after whom the Waffen-SS division was named) who fought the Ottomans, which to me would at least indicate a not entirely uncomplicated attitude towards the Ottoman era and its religious imprint.
    I've got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it's always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don't even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn't accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Yevardian

    , @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I’ve seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church.
     
    It is rapidly secularizing from a very high base. There is much room to secularize. A country that is already completely secular can't secularize much.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-world-are-less-religious-by-several-measures/

    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.

    https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/06/PF.06.13.18_religiouscommitment-03-08-.png

    Overall Polish rate is higher than any Western nation. Even the Polish under 40 rate (26%) is higher than the overall rate anywhere in Europe.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles - 6% lower than among older Poles.

    Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case.
     
    Weekly Church attendance is much higher among Poles than among Western Europeans (see above).

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.

    Poland has low rates of divorce and children being born out of wedlock:

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    I posted this map before on the massive open thread with about 1000 posts, so you may have missed it:

    https://miro.medium.com/max/494/1*wYrJCH4UWW-yK6US3tJNbA.png

    The old territory of the Second Polish Republic, encompassing most of Poland plus western Ukraine and western Belarus, is a sort of island of low out-of-wedlock births.

    a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’
     
    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    Poland is the most rapidly secularising
     
    At least in comparison to other slavic nationalities (which includes the most secular in Europe), Poles are very religious though. You can see this if you visit a church in Western Europe - depending on area, it can be mostly Africans, Poles, Filipinos, Latins, etc.

    Catholicism is part of the mainstream culture in Poland.

    It's completely not-comparable to Russia, where religion (even Hare Krishna) is really a very minority sect, obscure to most of the country, and to extent had never extended to the mainstream population (as late as in the 19th century, the clergy complains about the extreme difficulty of imposing norms on the peasants).

    So the average person doesn't know what religion is teaching or the most basic things about it. The clergymen are writing on Facebook about how the visitors to their services don't know the most simple customs. (Whereas in Poland, you can be sure average people know how the services go).


    Putin’s public displays of Orthodox
     
    Putin is a KGB officer, and a lot of the ruling class are from the intelligence serves of the USSR, so this is a different kind of politics. In countries like Poland, although their government is apparently considered "embarrassing" by educated Poles; they have seemed to be able to create a relatively more "normal" (or European, democratic) political reality nowadays. So I don't think the Polish politicians are doing this kind of cynical appearing state-building attemptings.

    Since the end of communism, Poland has managed to create a kind of European, modern, democratic political system.


    declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin – without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.
     
    There is also the type of religion or spirituality that is more discovered in Russia - it's something that becomes attractive for older people. That is, people who were secular for most of their life, might become religious as they become old. They "discover religion" as they age, as you can say.

    Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’,

     

    I think it varies from which country we are discussing, and what you mean by traditional (which historical time it refers to).

    The more advanced countries of the USSR, like in Russia have maintained less traditions from the 19th century and earlier, than Western European countries.

    Western European countries like UK have far traditions of the 19th century and earlier, in comparison.

    But because of a slow of development in most of the country of the last 30 years, there is still more maintained a lot of the traditions of the 20th century in Russia (although the rapid computerization of the population in the last 10 years is scary, as the dying of the villages).

    Poland's history is different as they have nationalism (unlike in Russia, where the history is imperialism). In Poland, self-consciously tried to maintain their folkloric culture as part of the nationalism project since various partitions.

    And what about those Southern countries like Romania, Bulgaria? These can seem incredibly traditional in some ways.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  28. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.
     
    These people are demented Larpers. Outside maybe of the papal state, such a thing never existed anywhere even in medieval Europe. They should remember what happened to popes like Gregory VII and Boniface VIII, when they overreached in their dealings with secular powers and tried subordinating the temporal power to the spiritual power.
    I read the excerpts in Dreher's article and I'm completely unsympathetic to the Integralist programme as outlined there. These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran's system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant "anything goes" liberalism.

    Replies: @A123, @Hyperborean, @Coconuts, @silviosilver

    The de Maistre quote is particularly amusing given that the ‘Enrichissez-vous’ July Monarchy and the populist Napoleon III both lasted longer than the Bourbon Legitimists.

    By contrast, the radicals, the extremists, the idealists, the critics, the dissenters, the activists of social change, have in my lifetime been far more realistic, and simultaneously more imaginative, about the capacious and flexible limits of political and legal change. The activists who pushed for same-sex marriage, even when Congress and dozens of states had passed statutes barring it – and who, after the Obergefell decision, turned on a dime to promoting transgenderism; the Trump voters who ignored the ironclad predictions of their betters; Chris Rufo, who has achieved the nearly unimaginable in the wars over critical race theory and public education — all these have had a sense of the possible, a breadth of vision, that the myopic realist can only imagine possessing.

    In many of these cases, furthermore, the activists — while of course claiming to represent the real will of the people, or the best of our national ideals, or what have you — formed a tiny minority of the population, even a tiny minority of the intellectual class. One of the standard mistakes underpinning the futility trope is to imagine that the political views and preferences of national majorities set the terms of political action. In fact, on most (many? all?) issues national majorities may well have no real views or preferences. At a minimum, as our political history since 1989 testifies over and over, some unpredictable number of the public’s seemingly fixed views are weakly held and malleable from above, susceptible to elite influence, and quick to acquiesce to changes in law or political practice put into place by tiny minorities with access to the crucial levers of power. De Maistre once said that despite the events of 1789 and after, “four or five men can give France a king.” The mechanisms underpinning this observation have been worked out as a major theme of political science and public-choice economics since Mancur Olson’s work on the logic of collective action. Committed minorities have often been able to set the terms of political life for large, relatively apathetic majorities, especially in a system like our own that offers many points of access for minority influence, such as the courts.

    https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/it-cant-happen-or-the-poverty-of

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    I actually tend to agree that committed minorities often have an outsized influence. Still, it's quite the reach to get from that to the idea that integralists could remould the US according to their preferences, when their project has no roots at all in US history (much less than wokeness imo) and runs totally counter to the hegemonic culture.
    And I have to say on a personal level I just find Vermeule repellent from the little I've read. Typical lawyer scum, with his idea that his vision could be implemented by taking over the judicial system, like gay marriage advocates did. Not even a hint of heroic sentiment.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  29. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker
     
    That's the case for all of Eastern Europe, no? It's similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats. Religion becomes an identity marker and on some level tied to ethnicity. This is ironic given the low levels of genuine religiosity in these countries.

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I've seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church. Putin's public displays of Orthodox piety is not matched by the church-avoiding youth. Yet public declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin - without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    This pattern repeats itself in country after country in Eastern Europe. A naïve analysis would conclude that Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn't the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by 'disapora nationalists', projecting their fantasies onto societies that do not conform to their cherished ideals.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP, @Dmitry

    It’s similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats.

    I get your point about Serbs and Croats, but do Albanians really pretend to be that religious? They’re not all even nominally Muslim, there’s a non-trivial Christian minority, and many godless. Also you’ve got things like national hero Skanderbeg (after whom the Waffen-SS division was named) who fought the Ottomans, which to me would at least indicate a not entirely uncomplicated attitude towards the Ottoman era and its religious imprint.
    I’ve got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it’s always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don’t even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn’t accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    do Albanians really pretend to be that religious?
     
    Sample of one, but the only self-professed muslim I have known who insisted that there was nothing wrong with eating pork was an Albanian gypsy classmate of mine. Though if I remember correctly he was circumcised and held to ramadan.
    , @Yevardian
    @German_reader


    I’ve got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it’s always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don’t even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn’t accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.
     
    You probably know already, but yes, religion has never really formed a key part of Albanian identity. The most revered aspect in all traditional Albanian society is the Kanun, a compendium of oral law governing blood feuds/pacts, marriage customs, inheritance, land rights, practically every aspect of pre-modern life. The Kanun equally governs behaviour for Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, it makes no distinction for religion.

    I used to think it had gone defunct after the long Hoxha years, but I can tell you from personal acquaitances, that even amongst urban and educated people it's very much alive. Well, perhaps not so surprising considering the degree of total anarchy Albania fell into until the late 90s, even worse than Armenia. Albania's entire electricity grid was actually breaking down, with consequences that can be imagined after daylight. Whole families simply fled Tirana to their ancestral villages during this period, it's actually universally remembered (I don't remember the phrase in Albanian [incidentally, it sounds very different to Slavic languages of the area, with lots of 'th' and 'the' sounds, also distinguishing the 'English r', a tap, and a trilled r, I think only Armenian also has this], unfortunately) as 'The Night of Dark Forces' in Albania, or something along those lines.
    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they're not the biggest niggers of Europe.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Emil Nikola Richard

  30. @Thulean Friend
    @Aedib


    Germans self-shot with the Baerbock words and gas prices are skyrocketing thank to her dumb words about Nord-Stream 2.
     
    I've been calling her the NATO Chatbot for this very reason. Just go to any NATO think-tank like the RAND corporation on virtually any topic and you will find zero daylight between her and what they say.

    That said, I don't think she's stupid. She's a US puppet, and knowingly one, for careerist reasons. That may be spineless, but it isn't stupid per se. She knows what she is doing, and is very cynical about it.

    Sholz is also not blameless here. He knows perfectly well what she represents. As I noted in the previous OT, selecting her is basically his way to try to reassure the Western establishment that his govt is going to play ball. Merkel was seen as too independent in her last years, and I was surprised how far she was willing to push the NS2 issue despite massive US pressure.

    I don't think Germany will cave now, but given its long track record of craven behaviour to America, nothing can sadly be off the table.

    Replies: @Aedib

    I’m astonished. German Atlanticists seems so subservient that they are even prone to sacrifice the German world-class industry in the altar of the Atlanticist ideology. They are mongrelizing and destroying the foundation of their formerly marvelous country.
    The most bizarre thing is that Russians are profiting by “not opening” NS2.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Aedib

    It's not ideology. It is subservience to the real ruler of Europe: The United States of America.

    I am not exaggerating when I call Europe nothing but a mere collection of puppet states of the US. Germany is by far the most powerful country in the EU and even they have been struggling enormously to get through a common-sense policy like the NS2. What hope is there for less powerful countries? I think Germans will ultimately get it through but this kind of brutal uphill battle for a core national strategic interest is insane.

    This also has implications in the China vs America debates. Most non-Europeans underestimate just to what extent Europe is craven to US diktat. It goes beyond alliances and into the realm of colonialism. China has nothing comparable in size or nature - and never will.

    , @sudden death
    @Aedib

    Those poor German industrialists have been forewarned or straightout colluded and bought needed quantities of gas in advance at low prices in the summer and pumped it to their own storages, so it's nothing but crocodile tears regarding their cruel fate. Also there is no better cure from excess gazpromophilia than absurd gas prices as it makes instalation of all other power sources way more profitable too, e.g. Finland new nuclear station will be profitable despite neverending delays ;)

    Replies: @Aedib

  31. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @German_reader

    The de Maistre quote is particularly amusing given that the 'Enrichissez-vous' July Monarchy and the populist Napoleon III both lasted longer than the Bourbon Legitimists.


    By contrast, the radicals, the extremists, the idealists, the critics, the dissenters, the activists of social change, have in my lifetime been far more realistic, and simultaneously more imaginative, about the capacious and flexible limits of political and legal change. The activists who pushed for same-sex marriage, even when Congress and dozens of states had passed statutes barring it - and who, after the Obergefell decision, turned on a dime to promoting transgenderism; the Trump voters who ignored the ironclad predictions of their betters; Chris Rufo, who has achieved the nearly unimaginable in the wars over critical race theory and public education — all these have had a sense of the possible, a breadth of vision, that the myopic realist can only imagine possessing.

    In many of these cases, furthermore, the activists — while of course claiming to represent the real will of the people, or the best of our national ideals, or what have you — formed a tiny minority of the population, even a tiny minority of the intellectual class. One of the standard mistakes underpinning the futility trope is to imagine that the political views and preferences of national majorities set the terms of political action. In fact, on most (many? all?) issues national majorities may well have no real views or preferences. At a minimum, as our political history since 1989 testifies over and over, some unpredictable number of the public’s seemingly fixed views are weakly held and malleable from above, susceptible to elite influence, and quick to acquiesce to changes in law or political practice put into place by tiny minorities with access to the crucial levers of power. De Maistre once said that despite the events of 1789 and after, “four or five men can give France a king.” The mechanisms underpinning this observation have been worked out as a major theme of political science and public-choice economics since Mancur Olson’s work on the logic of collective action. Committed minorities have often been able to set the terms of political life for large, relatively apathetic majorities, especially in a system like our own that offers many points of access for minority influence, such as the courts.
     

    https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/it-cant-happen-or-the-poverty-of

    Replies: @German_reader

    I actually tend to agree that committed minorities often have an outsized influence. Still, it’s quite the reach to get from that to the idea that integralists could remould the US according to their preferences, when their project has no roots at all in US history (much less than wokeness imo) and runs totally counter to the hegemonic culture.
    And I have to say on a personal level I just find Vermeule repellent from the little I’ve read. Typical lawyer scum, with his idea that his vision could be implemented by taking over the judicial system, like gay marriage advocates did. Not even a hint of heroic sentiment.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @German_reader


    Typical lawyer scum, with his idea that his vision could be implemented by taking over the judicial system, like gay marriage advocates did. Not even a hint of heroic sentiment.
     
    You really surprise me here. Say that, by some miracle, German nats are poised to take over in 2022, with the promise that all racial non-Germans will be removed from German territory, but they only achieved that position through slimy lawyermerchantjew means rather than heroic Germanic means, you would seriously, even now, at this late date, make that a criterion for acceptability?
  32. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats.
     
    I get your point about Serbs and Croats, but do Albanians really pretend to be that religious? They're not all even nominally Muslim, there's a non-trivial Christian minority, and many godless. Also you've got things like national hero Skanderbeg (after whom the Waffen-SS division was named) who fought the Ottomans, which to me would at least indicate a not entirely uncomplicated attitude towards the Ottoman era and its religious imprint.
    I've got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it's always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don't even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn't accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Yevardian

    do Albanians really pretend to be that religious?

    Sample of one, but the only self-professed muslim I have known who insisted that there was nothing wrong with eating pork was an Albanian gypsy classmate of mine. Though if I remember correctly he was circumcised and held to ramadan.

  33. Interesting how it seems some of the stories of some of these prehistoric migrations seem to be being rewritten now in 2021 (Japan and England), almost like the earlier, much publicized studies were very slipshod. Or maybe it is that they have more skeletons now?

    I recall some few archaeologists giving vague cautions about early England. But nothing to make me believe that there was a 50% replacement around 1000-875 BC. I wonder what Reich wrote? I tried to read his book, but couldn’t get far into it, as I had seen that stuff summarized more concisely two or three times, and so it seemed very cliched to me.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    Did you mean this one by whyvert? or related to him,

    https://twitter.com/bharatxyz/status/1462193531917770753?s=20

    The world's gone insane man, we worship nogs & vaccines.

    Even on Unz like jim's blog already showed women's right = low tfr, they still look for other solutions.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @songbird

  34. @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader


    Spain’s existence alone should be enough evidence that this “based Catholicsm” meme is nonsense.
     
    Iberia as a whole is exceptionally progressive for reasons that are not entirely clear to me. If you look at polling data for Greece or Italy on questions like immigration or similar hotbutton issues you will find a much greater right-wing bloc. The Iberian peninsula is basically the sunnier, browner and slightly more corrupt version of Sweden.

    I do not think this has much to do with Catholicism. It seems to be an outlier for domestic cultural reasons - certainly when compared to other Med countries. Sadly, I am not aware of a single person of Iberian origin on this blog, so we can't get much insight into why this the case.

    Replies: @Mikel

    Sadly, I am not aware of a single person of Iberian origin on this blog

    I am aware of one who was born on the Iberian side of the Basque Country. And he actually tried to provide some insights on that issue for the Basque case in the previous OT but I doubt he will be willing to repeat himself here for your honor’s convenience. Not all of them extrapolated to the rest of Iberia anyway.

  35. @songbird
    Interesting how it seems some of the stories of some of these prehistoric migrations seem to be being rewritten now in 2021 (Japan and England), almost like the earlier, much publicized studies were very slipshod. Or maybe it is that they have more skeletons now?

    I recall some few archaeologists giving vague cautions about early England. But nothing to make me believe that there was a 50% replacement around 1000-875 BC. I wonder what Reich wrote? I tried to read his book, but couldn't get far into it, as I had seen that stuff summarized more concisely two or three times, and so it seemed very cliched to me.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Did you mean this one by whyvert? or related to him,

    The world’s gone insane man, we worship nogs & vaccines.

    Even on Unz like jim’s blog already showed women’s right = low tfr, they still look for other solutions.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Agree: Svidomyatheart
    • Replies: @songbird
    @sher singh

    Think it was back further. Maybe, in reply to someone? (Birth Gauge?)

    IIRC, Nemets believes that Ukraine will turn black and Indian, unless it rejoins the Russian sphere.

    BTW, I am wondering whether the story about prehistoric India will be rewritten too, based on DNA. Caste mysteriously evolved 1000 years, after PIE invasion? Possible, but, maybe, a second group invaded, back then. (Still PIE?)

  36. @German_reader
    @Coconuts

    Thanks. I have to admit I know very little about Integralism, especially its present-day proponents...do they ever get more specific about the kind of state they would like to construct? Do they have any historical models at all, or is it just a vague appeal to principles? I don't think a return to throne and altar monarchism could be seen as plausible today by any but the most deluded, but what are the alternatives? Some kind of authoritarian corporatism with a special role for the Catholic church, like Franco tried to implement?

    Replies: @Coconuts

    AFAIK the French ones want to recreate a kind of decentralised monarchy based on the Action Francaise tradition. I haven’t paid much attention to the US ones because I thought at this stage they are probably more about putting out powerful takes and trolling people like Dreher.

    The book by Fr. Thomas Crean and Alan Fimister ‘Integralism’ is a good introduction to the theory, but I read it as being about core political theory and philosophy, rather than something setting out a contemporary political program. I found it informative for understanding Catholic historic political philosophy, and also things like Fascist ideology, the Portuguese and pre-war French right etc. I suspect Liberal Catholics didn’t like anyone drawing attention to this older Catholic theory and so didn’t like the book, even though much of the content would have been banal in the context of 1940s or 50s Catholicism.

    In terms of real world regimes Salazar seems to be a reference, but this kind of thing is still mainly cultural and ideological at this time and appears to be a small trend even within Catholicism (like Bronze Age Pervert for Catholics) so they are probably still thinking about things like this.

    From what I know of Franco, he ruled as a kind of absolute monarch ‘by the grace of God’ and non-Catholics didn’t have full citizens rights, Spanish bishops as a body led the arguments against recognising freedom of religious belief at the 2nd Vatican council in the early 60s for example. But this was unusual in that the regime came out of a major civil war.

  37. @Dmitry
    AaronB says:

    Marx and to some extent Hegel, far from manifesting the genuine Christian principle, actually reverted to the exact principle of politics uber alles that Jesus
     
    If you read a lot of New Testament, it's clear that "World to Come" is not only an immaterial world, but the speakers are sometimes speaking like they expect it will soon include the material world, just as in Marx the revolution will re-orient both the material world, as well as spiritual world (although only indexed for man).

    In the historical context of New Testament, Jews are in ambiguous waiting for the arrival of a Messianic age (in which there will be Justice and Peace), which can be very near.

    Among the Jews of this time, the materiality of the world to come, is ambiguous, or there was not the extent of our (modern peoples') separation between the spiritual and material worlds.

    You can see this many times where the implication is not completely clear, if there will be material or immaterial rewards. For example, in Mark 10
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10&version=NIV
    https://i.imgur.com/YsBuzIa.jpg

    Jesus is clearly saying that you should sell your material things and give to the poor. So this is a material claim, not less than in Marxism.

    But in the end of his answer to Peter, he implies that material things, will be compensated with eternal life in the Messianic Age.

    There is with Marx, a modern lowering of expectations, where the after the end of history, there will not be "eternal life", but at best justice, equality, and a spiritual return of a non-alienated relation to society.

    However, as in Hegel, Marxism returns some of the ambiguity in the distinction between the material and spiritual life. This is where the material and spiritual are believed to be intermixed. In Marx, you labor activity and spiritual activity become the same. In Hegel , Napoleon is not just an ordinary political leader, but also representative of the world spirit, etc.

    Replies: @A123, @iffen

    All Bibles are the works of fallible mankind. Translations of Edits of Translations.

    -A- At best, they are genuine attempts to grasp the glory of The Father & The Son.
    -B- At worst, they can be outright manipulation.
    -C- Most often, they are between these two extremes.

    The King James Bible is an example of Case C. Part of the edit was an intentional tilt to make the work more friendly to the monarchy.

    Part of serious Protestant belief is that all parts of the various Bibles are not created equal. How to weight portions of texts from different sources is difficult. Blindly accepting a single version as perfect? That is the first step towards recreating the “Paid Indulgences” of the failed Catholic Church from ~500 AD.
    ___

    Also, consider KJV 1 is circa 1611, KJV 2 from 1769. Over reading a document that is 200-400 years old is perilous.

    Modern migration involving powered ships and even faster airplanes undercuts the assumptions of the ancient text. KJV verse applies to a basically similar “stranger” from the next town. There is no reason to believe it applies to unassimilable, violent Jihadists from another continent.

    A KJV 3 is badly over due. However, there is not enough cohesion at this point to update the document to exclude things that made sense in historical context but are crazy now. To paraphrase, “The Bible is Not a Suicide Pact for Christianity”

    PEACE 😇

  38. @sher singh
    @songbird

    Did you mean this one by whyvert? or related to him,

    https://twitter.com/bharatxyz/status/1462193531917770753?s=20

    The world's gone insane man, we worship nogs & vaccines.

    Even on Unz like jim's blog already showed women's right = low tfr, they still look for other solutions.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @songbird

    Think it was back further. Maybe, in reply to someone? (Birth Gauge?)

    IIRC, Nemets believes that Ukraine will turn black and Indian, unless it rejoins the Russian sphere.

    BTW, I am wondering whether the story about prehistoric India will be rewritten too, based on DNA. Caste mysteriously evolved 1000 years, after PIE invasion? Possible, but, maybe, a second group invaded, back then. (Still PIE?)

  39. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    they make it quite clear they want a theocratic state whose officials are subject only to Church doctrine and the Pope.
     
    These people are demented Larpers. Outside maybe of the papal state, such a thing never existed anywhere even in medieval Europe. They should remember what happened to popes like Gregory VII and Boniface VIII, when they overreached in their dealings with secular powers and tried subordinating the temporal power to the spiritual power.
    I read the excerpts in Dreher's article and I'm completely unsympathetic to the Integralist programme as outlined there. These people basically just want a Catholic version of Iran's system, literally rule by priests. I guess it says something about the unhinged character of the American right that something as demented as this even gets a hearing, as a sort of over-compensating response to the dominant "anything goes" liberalism.

    Replies: @A123, @Hyperborean, @Coconuts, @silviosilver

    I remember reading Dreher’s article, it is a bit weasly, given that Britain until the Catholic emancipation in the 1830s would probably count as a Protestant Integralist regime and in certain ways still is (the unwritten constitution is supposed to be the Protestant version of ‘Natural Law’ and the queen still reigns based on it), Franco’s Spain was an Integralist regime, there was one in the Dominican Republic IIRC and so on.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    Franco’s Spain was an Integralist regime
     
    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn't take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren't grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that's from Stanley Payne's Franco biography). So I'm not sure I would classify his regime as integralist in the sense Vermeule and others like him seem to be advocating. Franco also was a Spanish nationalist who dreamt of turning Spain into a great power again, so I doubt he'd been thrilled about having Spain subsumed in a kind of world government under the pope.
    I'll be honest, for me it's primarily an issue of national sovereignty. I have no interest in a regime where priests would have unquestioned authority and could order the secular power around. Especially not given the Catholic Church's support for mass immigration, which for me is the central issue.
    Thanks for your comments about the book by Crean and Fimister. I think I need to look at it myself some time, though I suspect it will enrage me.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  40. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @German_reader

    I remember reading Dreher's article, it is a bit weasly, given that Britain until the Catholic emancipation in the 1830s would probably count as a Protestant Integralist regime and in certain ways still is (the unwritten constitution is supposed to be the Protestant version of 'Natural Law' and the queen still reigns based on it), Franco's Spain was an Integralist regime, there was one in the Dominican Republic IIRC and so on.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Franco’s Spain was an Integralist regime

    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn’t take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren’t grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that’s from Stanley Payne’s Franco biography). So I’m not sure I would classify his regime as integralist in the sense Vermeule and others like him seem to be advocating. Franco also was a Spanish nationalist who dreamt of turning Spain into a great power again, so I doubt he’d been thrilled about having Spain subsumed in a kind of world government under the pope.
    I’ll be honest, for me it’s primarily an issue of national sovereignty. I have no interest in a regime where priests would have unquestioned authority and could order the secular power around. Especially not given the Catholic Church’s support for mass immigration, which for me is the central issue.
    Thanks for your comments about the book by Crean and Fimister. I think I need to look at it myself some time, though I suspect it will enrage me.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn’t take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren’t grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that’s from Stanley Payne’s Franco biography).
     
    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with, which were those set out in the Integralism book, towards the more democratic ones which the Church puts forwards now.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically, but it is understandable that it won't be appealing for a non-Catholic audience (apparently there are now people working on a Protestant version of Integralism).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating 'reactionary' or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these (this is from Aquinas):

    A city which must engage in much trade in order to supply its needs also has to put up with the continuous presence of foreigners. But intercourse with foreigners, according to Aristotle’s Politics, is particularly harmful to civic customs. For it is inevitable that strangers, brought up under other laws and customs, will in many cases act as the citizens are not wont to act and thus, since the citizens are drawn by their example to act likewise, their own civic life is upset.

    Replies: @German_reader

  41. @A123
    @songbird


    There are dummies in Japan now saying that part of the reason TFR is collapsing is that the state does not spend enough on education.

    Seems obvious to me that, if you had two states with equal human capital, then the one that banned everything past two year colleges would handily out compete the other.
     
    Something of an over simplification on your part.

    A wealthly husband can support more children. Thus, you want enough Citizen 4-year+ graduates to fill those economic roles. Engineers & surgeons are necessary. You cannot get that with a 2 year degree.

    Four year degrees in the arts that are potential bastions of "victim studies" (gender, ethnic, etc.) should be shutdown entirely. Science & business fields could be reviewed by the number of "Post Docs" stuck serving as underpaid adjunct lecturers.
    ____

    Another improvement that would help -- Students Loans should only be available based on future earning potential. "High Debt / Low Pay" blocks family formation. AOC's loan forgiveness is a silly idea. Prevention is the sensible answer.

    There is a concept problem with the idea of Student Loans. Some % of students inevitably start but never finish a degree program. This can also lead to the "High Debt / Low Pay" trap. Ideally people should save first and then go to University.

    Public Universities with much lower tuition do well in the Southern U.S. However these also come with their own political complications.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen

    Or we could just sit back and let the breeders breed.

  42. @Emil Nikola Richard

    And many thanks again to Ron Unz for having created a new Open thread, it’s very generous, and I think I can say for all regular commenters that we appreciate it very much!
     
    It's like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn't ever fork out for.

    Replies: @iffen

    that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.

    It wasn’t the money. They didn’t want you to shoot your eye out.

    • Replies: @Max Demian
    @iffen



    It’s like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.
     
    It wasn’t the money. They didn’t want you to shoot your eye out.
     
    What about giving a child a rifle? (File #21, Dragnet_49-12-22_030_22_Rifle_for_Christmas.mp3)

    From The Untold Truth Of Dragnet [Grunge, September 2021]:


    However, one of the show's most controversial stories, first aired on radio in 1949 and then filmed for TV in 1952, was ".22 Rifle for Christmas." In this holiday episode, Joe Friday receives a call about a missing 9-year-old boy named Stanley Johnstone. [...]
     

    As detailed in "My Name's Friday," by Michael J. Hayde, the show received a mostly positive response from viewers. However, the National Rifle Association strongly objected to the episode in a letter to Webb. The "Dragnet" creator turned the letter over to LAPD which promised the pro-gun organization that they could expect at least 10 more episodes "illustrating the folly of giving rifles to children."
     
    I would be interested to know what your view of the NRA is.

    To download the entire OTRR Certified Set of Dragnet as eleven .zip files, scroll to the bottom of the first page linked at the top of this comment. Or simply convert the following into a functional URL:
    archive DOT org/details/OTRR_Certified_Dragnet

    Replies: @A123, @songbird

  43. @Dmitry
    AaronB says:

    Marx and to some extent Hegel, far from manifesting the genuine Christian principle, actually reverted to the exact principle of politics uber alles that Jesus
     
    If you read a lot of New Testament, it's clear that "World to Come" is not only an immaterial world, but the speakers are sometimes speaking like they expect it will soon include the material world, just as in Marx the revolution will re-orient both the material world, as well as spiritual world (although only indexed for man).

    In the historical context of New Testament, Jews are in ambiguous waiting for the arrival of a Messianic age (in which there will be Justice and Peace), which can be very near.

    Among the Jews of this time, the materiality of the world to come, is ambiguous, or there was not the extent of our (modern peoples') separation between the spiritual and material worlds.

    You can see this many times where the implication is not completely clear, if there will be material or immaterial rewards. For example, in Mark 10
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10&version=NIV
    https://i.imgur.com/YsBuzIa.jpg

    Jesus is clearly saying that you should sell your material things and give to the poor. So this is a material claim, not less than in Marxism.

    But in the end of his answer to Peter, he implies that material things, will be compensated with eternal life in the Messianic Age.

    There is with Marx, a modern lowering of expectations, where the after the end of history, there will not be "eternal life", but at best justice, equality, and a spiritual return of a non-alienated relation to society.

    However, as in Hegel, Marxism returns some of the ambiguity in the distinction between the material and spiritual life. This is where the material and spiritual are believed to be intermixed. In Marx, you labor activity and spiritual activity become the same. In Hegel , Napoleon is not just an ordinary political leader, but also representative of the world spirit, etc.

    Replies: @A123, @iffen

    This is where the material and spiritual are believed to be intermixed.

    Yeah, AaronB, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  44. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @songbird


    to get to a middling 10 year plus specialist, who wants to spend 5 minutes on a problem and will break out the google in front of me.
     
    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program. He touched my chest with a stethoscope for less than a minute and the only other person who made any actual contact with me was the nurse who attached a blood pressure sleeve to my arm and an oxygen meter to my finger.

    If your problem isn't on a main branch of that diagnosis tree I guess I don't want to know what happens.

    Replies: @A123

    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program

    I have a very good relationship with my long term GP doctor. We have headed off a significant amount of unnecessary work by documenting some personal body chemistry that is well away from standard.

    A 2-year tech and BigPharma computer program would have called for pharmaceutical intervention that would have made things worse. Odds are that error would have been so damaging I would have needed liver transplant surgery.

    How to protect the medical profession from BigPharma is not a straight line connection to years of education. However, actual understanding is the best counter to computer error.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @A123

    There is an awful lot of that sort of thing in my experience. The vast majority of the time diagnosis it's just throwing stock remedies at the wall to see what sticks. Even good doctors are too rushed oftentimes to give a really thorough inquiry.

    My wife has some deep seated thyroid/ adrenal issues and we really have had to do our own research and find a doctor who is willing order in depth blood tests. No joke, a lot of doctors have just jumped to trying to throw anti-depressants at symptoms like "low energy". It's such a joke.

    It's hardly the only similar situation we've seen. It's partly why my desire to "trust the experts" on Covid has been less than enthusiastic.

    Replies: @A123

  45. @A123
    Iran destroys more of Lebanon

    The Nasrallah-shima blast where Iranian Hezbollah destroyed the Beirut Port was apparently not enough.

    Now Iranian Hamas has also blown up part of Lebanon near the Port of Tyre: (1)


    "Initial reports suggested the incident began with a fire in a diesel tanker before spreading to a nearby mosque controlled by Hamas," Deutsche Welle and various agencies wrote.

    "Footage shared by local media showed a number of small, bright red flashes above the port city, followed by a blast and the sound of glass shattering," the report added.
    ...

    "Hamas maintains a presence in a number of Palestinian camps in Lebanon," said Al Jazeera. "The NNA said the army cordoned off the area, preventing people from entering or leaving the camp."
     

    How many more must die before Iran leaves Lebanon?

    Is a partition inevitable?

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/huge-blast-rocks-refugee-camp-lebanon-large-casualties-feared

    https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1469390921238208512?s=20

    Replies: @Jim Christian, @Mulga Mumblebrain

    Nonsense. Isreal blew up the fertilizer storage a year or two back and some fairly credible evidence was posted that that was a low-yield nuke. Anything that happens to Lebanon is Israeli-led. Showing pictures of an explosion is evidence Iran did it? You’re hilarious, 123. Israel doesn’t have the courage to go into Lebanon, so they use terror tactics. This is more of the same. But I have an open mind. Where did the “evidence” come from? Because Iran has no reason to bomb Lebanon, Israel, many.

    • Agree: Antiwar7
    • Replies: @A123
    @Jim Christian

    ROTFLMAO

     
    https://media.tenor.com/images/ba1d73b01deca48a3ce24e5ff13cf00c/tenor.gif
     

    A nuke, even a tiny one, would have left radioactive fallout. No fallout exists. It is proven fact that Khamenei is 100% responsible for the massive (but non-nuclear) Nasrallah-shima blast.

    Please keep up your absurd and easily debunked fiction. The comic relief is appreciated.

    PEACE 😇

  46. @Jim Christian
    @A123

    Nonsense. Isreal blew up the fertilizer storage a year or two back and some fairly credible evidence was posted that that was a low-yield nuke. Anything that happens to Lebanon is Israeli-led. Showing pictures of an explosion is evidence Iran did it? You're hilarious, 123. Israel doesn't have the courage to go into Lebanon, so they use terror tactics. This is more of the same. But I have an open mind. Where did the "evidence" come from? Because Iran has no reason to bomb Lebanon, Israel, many.

    Replies: @A123

    ROTFLMAO

     

     

    A nuke, even a tiny one, would have left radioactive fallout. No fallout exists. It is proven fact that Khamenei is 100% responsible for the massive (but non-nuclear) Nasrallah-shima blast.

    Please keep up your absurd and easily debunked fiction. The comic relief is appreciated.

    PEACE 😇

  47. @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    Franco’s Spain was an Integralist regime
     
    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn't take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren't grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that's from Stanley Payne's Franco biography). So I'm not sure I would classify his regime as integralist in the sense Vermeule and others like him seem to be advocating. Franco also was a Spanish nationalist who dreamt of turning Spain into a great power again, so I doubt he'd been thrilled about having Spain subsumed in a kind of world government under the pope.
    I'll be honest, for me it's primarily an issue of national sovereignty. I have no interest in a regime where priests would have unquestioned authority and could order the secular power around. Especially not given the Catholic Church's support for mass immigration, which for me is the central issue.
    Thanks for your comments about the book by Crean and Fimister. I think I need to look at it myself some time, though I suspect it will enrage me.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn’t take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren’t grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that’s from Stanley Payne’s Franco biography).

    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with, which were those set out in the Integralism book, towards the more democratic ones which the Church puts forwards now.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically, but it is understandable that it won’t be appealing for a non-Catholic audience (apparently there are now people working on a Protestant version of Integralism).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating ‘reactionary’ or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these (this is from Aquinas):

    A city which must engage in much trade in order to supply its needs also has to put up with the continuous presence of foreigners. But intercourse with foreigners, according to Aristotle’s Politics, is particularly harmful to civic customs. For it is inevitable that strangers, brought up under other laws and customs, will in many cases act as the citizens are not wont to act and thus, since the citizens are drawn by their example to act likewise, their own civic life is upset.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with
     
    Yes, it was in the context of clergy voicing pro-democracy sentiments iirc.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically
     
    You're probably right, but the experience of medieval and early modern Europe imo clearly indicates that even in societies which understood themselves as fundamentally Christian there always was great potential for friction and conflict between spiritual and temporal power, with much resentment among laymen against the privileges and immunities of the clergy (let alone such pretensions as the right to depose secular rulers which some medieval popes claimed). I need to read the book, to see if they adress this issue in any way.
    (on that note, I downloaded the book, and noticed that in the index it says about the two swords that both belong to St Peter. This was contested in the conflicts between the medieval papacy and the emperor/other secular rulers. The issue is whethe secular power is merely derived from the papacy with its power of the keys, or has an existence of its own - after all the empire existed before the papacy and in the minds of many medieval Christians had its own role in the salvational scheme. So these issues were a source of conflict even in medieval Christendom).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating ‘reactionary’ or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these

     

    A presumably racialist reviewer on Amazon criticized it for being pro-immigration. I looked it up, and indeed in chapter 10 there's an argument that "the temporal commonwealth has a duty to harbour the outcast and must offer refuge according to its capacity to those in mortal need or fleeing unjust persecution". Now the question is what does mortal need mean? The footnote refers to an Apostolic Constitution by Pius XII from 1952, which apparently lists as possible reasons "revolutions in their own countries" (I presume mostly a reference to the Eastern bloc at the time), but also "unemployment or hunger". So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today's Catholic church that there's a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.
    But I really need to read the book, it looks interesting (don't know when I'll get around to it though).

    Replies: @Coconuts

  48. @Hyperborean
    Reply to AP in the previous thread:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-170/#comment-5062526

    Wokism is the newest American Protestant religious revival. It very closely parallels American Protestantism. Catholics becoming woke is analogous to Catholics converting to charismatic Protestant faiths, as is occurring in Brazil.

     


    Here a Protestant minister highlights the specific Protestant characteristics of Wokeness:
     
    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.

    Latin American liberation theology met with approval in the United States, but its use of “Marxist concepts” led in the mid-1980s to an admonition by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF). While stating that “in itself, the expression ‘theology of liberation’ is a thoroughly valid term”, the prefect Cardinal Ratzinger rejected certain forms of Latin American liberation theology for focusing on institutionalized or systemic sin and for identifying Catholic Church hierarchy in South America as members of the same privileged class that had long been oppressing indigenous populations from the arrival of Pizarro onward.
     
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

    —-

    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.

    *Their governance over Amerindians in the Southern Cone was even praised by Rousseau, Voltaire and Montesquieu.

    —-

    As for Protestantism causing the French Revolution, the root causes of dissatisfaction with the traditional Catholic order were rather similar in France, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Latin America; which led to similar Anti-Clerical sentiments and movements – though the degree of success and violence varies by country and era.

    It is fine to reject the anti-clericals, but simply blaming Protestantism without understanding their dissatisfaction with Integralism will merely lead to a Québécois-like Silent Revolution for any future neo-traditionalist régime.

    —-

    I have no antipathy towards Catholics, but Integralists like Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule are like a 21th century reincarnation of a 19th century ‘anti-papist’ pamphlet:

    I want to suggest a principle of immigration priority that should, I hope, be broadly acceptable or at least intriguing for all right-thinking persons concerned that current American immigration policy is racist and classist, explicitly or implicitly, de jure or de facto. The principle is to give lexical priority to confirmed Catholics, all of whom will jump immediately to the head of the queue. Yes, some will convert in order to gain admission; this is a feature, not a bug.

    This principle will disproportionately favor immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Latin America. (Note here that the priority is for actual Catholics, not for applicants from “historically Catholic countries”; relatively few Western Europeans will pass through the eye of the needle, and the Irish will be almost totally excluded). It will disproportionately favor the poor, and will draw no distinction between those seeking asylum based on a fear of persecution, and those fleeing “mere” economic hardship. It will in effect require opening the southern border of the United States, although immigration from Canada will rightly become a rare and difficult event, at least if we do not count a small subset of Quebecois.

    I venture to say that any opposition to this proposal almost necessarily defends some alternative principle of immigration priority that allocates fewer spots to non-whites and to the poor, and is thus a troubling indicator of racism and classism infesting whoever voices that opposition. We must overcome the know-nothing bigotry of the past. As the superb blog Semiduplex observes, Catholics need to rethink the nation-state. We have come a long way, but we still have far to go — towards the eventual formation of the Empire of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and ultimately the world government required by natural law.
     
    https://mirrorofjustice.blogs.com/mirrorofjustice/2019/07/a-principle-of-immigration-priority-.html

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.

    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn’t de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:


    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    “These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay’s Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans’ shops, and schools of music and painting.”

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-“gods” to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    “A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer.”

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.

    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.

    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    • Agree: Aedib, Not Raul
    • Thanks: Barbarossa
    • LOL: sher singh
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Your photos remind me of churches and ruins that I've seen in Costa Rica:

    https://previews.123rf.com/images/dchulov/dchulov1503/dchulov150300322/37797935-cartago-costa-rica-june-17-2012-exterior-of-the-ruins-of-the-santiago-apostol-cathedral-in-cartago-c.jpg
    Exterior of the ruins of the Santiago Apostol church in Cartago, Costa Rica.

    https://previews.123rf.com/images/lanabyko/lanabyko1512/lanabyko151200013/53338721-the-basilica-de-nuestra-senora-de-los-angeles-in-the-city-of-cartago-built-in-1639-costa-rica.jpg
    Basilica de Nuestra Senora de los Angeles in Cartago in Costa Rica.

    , @Hyperborean
    @AP


    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.
     

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)


    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.
     
    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with 'mostly slaughtering the natives', it feels like a moot point.

    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.
     
    Let us just take the Pope's word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix was modelled on one owned by Luís Espinal, a Jesuit priest, journalist and leftwing activist who was murdered by paramilitaries in 1980, when Bolivia was under a dictatorship.

    On Wednesday night, Francis halted his popemobile from the airport to pray at the site where Espinal’s body was found.

    “Dear sisters and brothers. I stopped here to greet you and above all to remember. To remember a brother, our brother, a victim of interests who did not want him to fight for the freedom of Bolivia,” the pope said on the scheduled stop.

    He also reportedly received a medal, bearing a hammer and sickle, from Morales that was issued in memory of Espinal’s death.

    Lombardi said he personally wasn’t offended by Morales’ gift. “You can dispute the significance and use of the symbol now, but the origin is from Espinal and the sense of it was about an open dialogue, not about a specific ideology,” Lombardi said.

    The Argentinian pope has been criticised in some quarters for not doing more to protect leftwing priests during the military dictatorship in his homeland. But since becoming pope in 2013, he has taken steps to reconcile the Vatican with progressive adherents of Liberation Theology, who argue that the Church should agitate for social and political change.

    In Bolivia, Morales – a former coca farmer from an indigenous community – previously upset many in the local clergy by declaring the country secular in a new constitution. However, he has embraced the pope and praised him for supporting poor and marginalised groups.

    Francis has used this trip to Latin America emphasize the problems faced by indigenous communities and to warn against “all totalitarian, ideological or sectarian schemes”.

    On Thursday he urged the downtrodden to change the world economic order, denouncing a “new colonialism” by agencies that impose austerity programmes and calling for the poor to have the “sacred rights” of labor, lodging and land.

    In one of the longest, most passionate and sweeping speeches of his pontificate, the Argentine-born pope also asked forgiveness for the sins committed by the Roman Catholic Church in its treatment of native Americans during what he called the “so-called conquest of America”.

    Quoting a fourth century bishop, he called the unfettered pursuit of money “the dung of the devil,” and said poor countries should not be reduced to being providers of raw material and cheap labour for developed countries.

    Repeating some of the themes of his landmark encyclical “Laudato Si” on the environment last month, Francis said time was running out to save the planet from perhaps irreversible harm to the ecosystem.

    “Let us not be afraid to say it: we want change, real change, structural change,” the pope said, decrying a system that “has imposed the mentality of profit at any price, with no concern for social exclusion or the destruction of nature.“

    “This system is by now intolerable: farm workers find it intolerable, laborers find it intolerable, communities find it intolerable, peoples find it intolerable The Earth itself – our sister, Mother Earth, as Saint Francis would say – also finds it intolerable,” he said in an hour-long speech that was interrupted by applause and cheering dozens of times.
     

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/bolivia-communist-crucifix-gift-pope-francis?espv=1

    Granted Bolivian paganism is more like Gaia than Mexican Satanism, but in both cases it is a native version of wokeism that has nothing do with Protestant interference.


    The unique belief system enjoyed renewed attention and celebration during Morales’ nearly 14-year-presidency, a time when he routinely performed Pachamama acts at official government ceremonies. An animated film called Pachamama debuted last year on Netflix, telling the story of 10-year-old Andean boy during the time of the Spanish conquest of Bolivia.

    The fusion of Roman Catholic and indigenous traditions goes on display each year in the early part of summer during a celebration called the feast of the Great Power in La Paz. Dancers wearing elaborate and colorful costumes fill the streets representing Andean folklore in celebration of a 17th century painting of Jesus Christ with native features .

    The patron saint to Bolivia, the Virgen of Copacabana, was discovered and sculpted by an indigenous after the Spanish arrive. Because of that, to some it’s a visual representation of the Pachamama even though it’s a Catholic saint.

    The blend of Christian and ancestral beliefs started by indigenous Bolivians who camouflaged their beliefs under Catholic ones, anthropologists say, but it has become more commonplace in recent history to publicly embrace both, especially during Morales’ presidency. Called religious syncretism, it is recognized by Bolivia’s constitution under the term “Andean cosmovision,” and it is widely practiced by many in the mostly indigenous South American country.

    Morales upset some Catholics because he rewrote the constitution in 2009, stripping special recognition given to the Roman Catholic church. But local Bolivian Catholic priests don’t seem to harbor any ill-will, instead reflecting the symbiotic relationship that exists at the pew level in Bolivia.

    “Our mission today is to avoid confrontation and understand the Aymara/Inca culture,” said Friar Abelino Yeguaori, from inside the Basilica of Our Lady of Copacabana on the shores of Lake Titicaca. “In the church in Bolivia there is a consensus not to destroy, but to try and internalize the people’s faith.”
     

    https://apnews.com/article/south-america-lifestyle-lake-titicaca-bolivia-latin-america-32b018bd433d728ba1d29a7bebc6289f

    Replies: @AP, @Yellowface Anon

    , @Aedib
    @AP

    Is this San Ignacio (Misiones in Argentina)? There is a sizable Ukrainian collectivity in this tiny northern Argentinean province.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Yevardian
    @AP

    Of course, the main reason we still know so much about Aztec and Incan societies is because the missionaries went out of their way to preserve their texts. The previous native-state languages, Nahuatl and Quechua, actually spread to a larger spoken area than previously, literacy in Nahuatl (I don't know so much about Quechua, but the aftermaeth of Tupac Amaru's rebellion definitely resulted in much worse ethnic-tensions than in Central Mexico) was strongly encouraged, whole Aztec codexes post-date the Spanish conquest.
    It took until the 17th Century that the Spanish Empire changed it policy and started actively discouraging usage of local languages, but it was still quite lazy about it. Ironically, it was the independence of Latin America that produced the first active persecution and rejection of any tongues other than Spanish, as previously Spain had always maintained a power-balance between the indigenous peasants against the ostensibly 'white' creole elite.

    Even now the racial lines in Latin American politics remain extremely obvious, with Chavez, Evol Morales, now with Pedro Castillo (I recall a few months ago some Peruvian claiming he was going to the bring the apocalypse and that he'd stay abroad without a visa if I had to, we'll see).

    Oh, last thing, I recall scoffing at Dmitri (maybe a year ago) about how 'he learned Spanish without effort'.. well, it did turn out that was in fact more or less correct, at least regarding reading, or listening with local subtitles. I guess being familiar with Romanian already helped a lot, but I was really surprised by how simple it was, I thought only English was so simple to learn to a functional level. Speaking of accents, I have to say I find Seseo sounds disgusting.

  49. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    Franco certainly was a pretty devout Catholic and gave the church a highly privileged position in his regime, but he didn’t take orders from bishops and priests. And near the end of his life he actually seems to have developed somewhat bitter feelings about much of the clergy, since he felt they weren’t grateful enough for everything he had done for the Church (that’s from Stanley Payne’s Franco biography).
     
    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with, which were those set out in the Integralism book, towards the more democratic ones which the Church puts forwards now.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically, but it is understandable that it won't be appealing for a non-Catholic audience (apparently there are now people working on a Protestant version of Integralism).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating 'reactionary' or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these (this is from Aquinas):

    A city which must engage in much trade in order to supply its needs also has to put up with the continuous presence of foreigners. But intercourse with foreigners, according to Aristotle’s Politics, is particularly harmful to civic customs. For it is inevitable that strangers, brought up under other laws and customs, will in many cases act as the citizens are not wont to act and thus, since the citizens are drawn by their example to act likewise, their own civic life is upset.

    Replies: @German_reader

    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with

    Yes, it was in the context of clergy voicing pro-democracy sentiments iirc.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically

    You’re probably right, but the experience of medieval and early modern Europe imo clearly indicates that even in societies which understood themselves as fundamentally Christian there always was great potential for friction and conflict between spiritual and temporal power, with much resentment among laymen against the privileges and immunities of the clergy (let alone such pretensions as the right to depose secular rulers which some medieval popes claimed). I need to read the book, to see if they adress this issue in any way.
    (on that note, I downloaded the book, and noticed that in the index it says about the two swords that both belong to St Peter. This was contested in the conflicts between the medieval papacy and the emperor/other secular rulers. The issue is whethe secular power is merely derived from the papacy with its power of the keys, or has an existence of its own – after all the empire existed before the papacy and in the minds of many medieval Christians had its own role in the salvational scheme. So these issues were a source of conflict even in medieval Christendom).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating ‘reactionary’ or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these

    A presumably racialist reviewer on Amazon criticized it for being pro-immigration. I looked it up, and indeed in chapter 10 there’s an argument that “the temporal commonwealth has a duty to harbour the outcast and must offer refuge according to its capacity to those in mortal need or fleeing unjust persecution”. Now the question is what does mortal need mean? The footnote refers to an Apostolic Constitution by Pius XII from 1952, which apparently lists as possible reasons “revolutions in their own countries” (I presume mostly a reference to the Eastern bloc at the time), but also “unemployment or hunger”. So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today’s Catholic church that there’s a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.
    But I really need to read the book, it looks interesting (don’t know when I’ll get around to it though).

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today’s Catholic church that there’s a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.
     
    With those reservations and what is written on p.207 and in note 80 I think this has always been the Catholic Church's position on migration. But in that context I read mortal need to mean actual mortal need; in danger of death, so the economic reasons would be starvation or malnutrition of the migrants (I think the way it would be understood in the 1940s, because it was a more common situation). I suspect this line of argument would also be used to justify things like the founding of the USA in general.

    As I said I don't think the book is setting out a practical political program, it's aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  50. @iffen
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.

    It wasn't the money. They didn't want you to shoot your eye out.

    Replies: @Max Demian

    It’s like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.

    It wasn’t the money. They didn’t want you to shoot your eye out.

    What about giving a child a rifle? (File #21, Dragnet_49-12-22_030_22_Rifle_for_Christmas.mp3)

    From The Untold Truth Of Dragnet [Grunge, September 2021]:

    However, one of the show’s most controversial stories, first aired on radio in 1949 and then filmed for TV in 1952, was “.22 Rifle for Christmas.” In this holiday episode, Joe Friday receives a call about a missing 9-year-old boy named Stanley Johnstone. […]

    [MORE]

    As detailed in “My Name’s Friday,” by Michael J. Hayde, the show received a mostly positive response from viewers. However, the National Rifle Association strongly objected to the episode in a letter to Webb. The “Dragnet” creator turned the letter over to LAPD which promised the pro-gun organization that they could expect at least 10 more episodes “illustrating the folly of giving rifles to children.”

    I would be interested to know what your view of the NRA is.

    To download the entire OTRR Certified Set of Dragnet as eleven .zip files, scroll to the bottom of the first page linked at the top of this comment. Or simply convert the following into a functional URL:
    archive DOT org/details/OTRR_Certified_Dragnet

    • Replies: @A123
    @Max Demian

    Leftoid Iffen was making an oblique reference to "A Christmas Story"

    https://youtu.be/qgjPa5JkecA?t=1

    As a low-IQ, #NeverTrump yahoo he is doing the best he can with staggeringly limited mental capabilities.

    I feel pity for him. I would help Iffen if I could but....

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @iffen

    , @songbird
    @Max Demian

    IIRC, they also had an episode where a little Mexican boy "steals" baby Jesus from a nativity scene, just because he promised to take him for a ride in his new wagon.

    In the US, there was a whole genre of Christmas specials, dating back earlier than anyone would guess, built around normalizing invasion from Mexicans. As if a warm welcome for the stranger helped Christianity and the public celebration of Christmas.

    The stereotype of Dragnet is that it is about ueber-straitlaced Joe Friday. I don't know a lot about Webb, but it is interesting to note that he was raised by a single mother, not unlike many porn actresses.

    I know a lot of people here aren't interested in American history, especially as it regards to political media, but I just listened to a few minutes of one of Webb's other radio dramas, One Out of Seven (from 1946) and I said to myself "WTF?!"


    Webb starred on several other radio dramas including the popular “One Out Of Seven” on which he voiced all of the characters. The series also provided Webb with a platform to advocate against racial prejudice. This was an interesting departure from his personal, mainly rightwing, Roman Catholic, political views.
     
    https://bluejayblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/something-about-jack-webb/

    (Seems like the intro for each episode had Nazis machine-gunning Jews against a wall, but I think was about blacks? I don't know, I just listened to a few snatches.

    Interestingly, seems like it was broadcast from San Francisco. He became the host after getting a discharge from the army, during the war, without ever having done any fighting. (Sounds a bit fishy? But maybe was true as his mother was a single mother)

    Incidentally, I feel 100% sure that there is no way that this shit was popular. But it does make me curious about whether the press amplified it. Probably not the mainstream press, I would guess. And yet, I'm not sure as one of its themes seems to be about amplifying stories from the press.

    https://archive.org/details/One_Out_Of_Seven/OneOutOfSeven46-xx-xxFreeMen.mp3

  51. @Max Demian
    @iffen



    It’s like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.
     
    It wasn’t the money. They didn’t want you to shoot your eye out.
     
    What about giving a child a rifle? (File #21, Dragnet_49-12-22_030_22_Rifle_for_Christmas.mp3)

    From The Untold Truth Of Dragnet [Grunge, September 2021]:


    However, one of the show's most controversial stories, first aired on radio in 1949 and then filmed for TV in 1952, was ".22 Rifle for Christmas." In this holiday episode, Joe Friday receives a call about a missing 9-year-old boy named Stanley Johnstone. [...]
     

    As detailed in "My Name's Friday," by Michael J. Hayde, the show received a mostly positive response from viewers. However, the National Rifle Association strongly objected to the episode in a letter to Webb. The "Dragnet" creator turned the letter over to LAPD which promised the pro-gun organization that they could expect at least 10 more episodes "illustrating the folly of giving rifles to children."
     
    I would be interested to know what your view of the NRA is.

    To download the entire OTRR Certified Set of Dragnet as eleven .zip files, scroll to the bottom of the first page linked at the top of this comment. Or simply convert the following into a functional URL:
    archive DOT org/details/OTRR_Certified_Dragnet

    Replies: @A123, @songbird

    Leftoid Iffen was making an oblique reference to “A Christmas Story”

    As a low-IQ, #NeverTrump yahoo he is doing the best he can with staggeringly limited mental capabilities.

    I feel pity for him. I would help Iffen if I could but….

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @iffen
    @A123

    One would think that a bot, even a beta version, would be able to find the definition of a NeverTrumper.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  52. @Max Demian
    @iffen



    It’s like having a rich uncle who gives you that BB gun for Christmas your parents wouldn’t ever fork out for.
     
    It wasn’t the money. They didn’t want you to shoot your eye out.
     
    What about giving a child a rifle? (File #21, Dragnet_49-12-22_030_22_Rifle_for_Christmas.mp3)

    From The Untold Truth Of Dragnet [Grunge, September 2021]:


    However, one of the show's most controversial stories, first aired on radio in 1949 and then filmed for TV in 1952, was ".22 Rifle for Christmas." In this holiday episode, Joe Friday receives a call about a missing 9-year-old boy named Stanley Johnstone. [...]
     

    As detailed in "My Name's Friday," by Michael J. Hayde, the show received a mostly positive response from viewers. However, the National Rifle Association strongly objected to the episode in a letter to Webb. The "Dragnet" creator turned the letter over to LAPD which promised the pro-gun organization that they could expect at least 10 more episodes "illustrating the folly of giving rifles to children."
     
    I would be interested to know what your view of the NRA is.

    To download the entire OTRR Certified Set of Dragnet as eleven .zip files, scroll to the bottom of the first page linked at the top of this comment. Or simply convert the following into a functional URL:
    archive DOT org/details/OTRR_Certified_Dragnet

    Replies: @A123, @songbird

    IIRC, they also had an episode where a little Mexican boy “steals” baby Jesus from a nativity scene, just because he promised to take him for a ride in his new wagon.

    [MORE]

    In the US, there was a whole genre of Christmas specials, dating back earlier than anyone would guess, built around normalizing invasion from Mexicans. As if a warm welcome for the stranger helped Christianity and the public celebration of Christmas.

    The stereotype of Dragnet is that it is about ueber-straitlaced Joe Friday. I don’t know a lot about Webb, but it is interesting to note that he was raised by a single mother, not unlike many porn actresses.

    I know a lot of people here aren’t interested in American history, especially as it regards to political media, but I just listened to a few minutes of one of Webb’s other radio dramas, One Out of Seven (from 1946) and I said to myself “WTF?!”

    Webb starred on several other radio dramas including the popular “One Out Of Seven” on which he voiced all of the characters. The series also provided Webb with a platform to advocate against racial prejudice. This was an interesting departure from his personal, mainly rightwing, Roman Catholic, political views.

    https://bluejayblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/something-about-jack-webb/

    (Seems like the intro for each episode had Nazis machine-gunning Jews against a wall, but I think was about blacks? I don’t know, I just listened to a few snatches.

    Interestingly, seems like it was broadcast from San Francisco. He became the host after getting a discharge from the army, during the war, without ever having done any fighting. (Sounds a bit fishy? But maybe was true as his mother was a single mother)

    Incidentally, I feel 100% sure that there is no way that this shit was popular. But it does make me curious about whether the press amplified it. Probably not the mainstream press, I would guess. And yet, I’m not sure as one of its themes seems to be about amplifying stories from the press.

    • Thanks: Max Demian
  53. @Dmitry
    I'm sad I missed this debate with AP.

    outlier among Catholic
     
    The most politically "woke" country of Western Europe, is surely Republic of Ireland, which has been one of the most traditionally Catholic.

    That's not to say, Catholicism causes "wokeness" - there is obviously no correlation in Europe, as Italy is more "anti-Woke" politically.

    That's a guideline which any historian should say. That important information is in the small details and particular circumstances of how the religious sect matches other factors, in these countries.


    accepting refugees (i.e, population
     
    This is one of few topics of modern politics, where Jesus says clear and unambiguous things, almost written like an instruction guide - that you should help strangers, and that your neighbor is the person who is good to you, not the person who is related to you or part of your tribe.

    Here Jesus is perhaps almost directly mappable to the refugee topic. In terms, of Jesus saying things like you should give your money to the poor - this can probably interpreted by both capitalists and socialists to support them in different ways. But when he says that your neighbor is not your tribemember, and to help them - this is difficult to re-interpret.


    for trans rights:
     
    Regardless that most people who are interested in this topic are secular.

    New Testament has perhaps some quite "woke" concordance views in this areas, implies that gender is not important. On the other hand, Origen, who has castrated himself, not exactly a church father.


    the pattern (among Europeans) has been Evangelical Protestants most right wing, then Catholics, and then mainline Protestants
     
    Because America is a different country, some of the social markers will be different.

    For example, in Northern Ireland, religious sects also partly indicate ethnic differences, as in Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, or Balkans. In Germany, the Catholic/Protestant might not indicate any ethnic differences. In USA, it might correlate to income levels. In e.g. Scotland, these correlation might be the opposite, than in USA, Brazil, etc.

    This is all local detail. And of course, the interesting things in this topic, are in the small local details.


    least woke countries remain Catholic and Orthodox ones. And not just backward ones in the Balkans, also Poland and Italy, even Czechia
     
    Compared to Western Europe, Poland is recently communist, poor, low income, country with a low standard of living. You would expect their politics to be different, regardless of a religion.

    Fact that Poland shares religion with many countries in Western Europe like Belgium or France, is probably the least relevant indicator for understanding their politics.

    In terms of Catholicism in Poland, the interesting thing is that Poland is still quite a religious country, while slavic nationalities in Russia are the most secular or non-religious population in Europe, and central Europe countries like Czech Republic are also quite non-religious.

    It's something Polish historians would probably be able to answer only. But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker in Poland, and Poland is country often under partial or total occupation.

    This is, Catholicism is perhaps felt like a national characteristic in Poland, and Poles are often being threatened by occupation of the neighbours. In Germany, for comparison, you can see Catholicism/Protestantism doesn't have any national connotation. Whereas in Ireland, Catholicism has a national connotation.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @LatW, @silviosilver

    The most politically “woke” country in Western Europe is the Republic of Ireland

    Yes, but, Dim, have you been around the Irish? This is because they are so innocent and sweet. They are like children who want to be everybody’s friend and be kind and gracious to everybody. They don’t know how to say No. That’s because they are completely unprotected and they don’t have those hard*ss Germanic instincts. And because their tradition is one of the oldest in Northern Europe that stems from the likes of Pelagius.

    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I’m not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    they are so innocent and sweet
     
    Lol I know Republic of Ireland.

    If you said they are "responsive, charming, extroverted, and socially intelligent", this is true. I will disagree with "innocent".

    They are the most extroverted, self-confident, socially intelligent, kind of "tropical" friendly people, after maybe Italy.

    But charming is not the same as innocent, although maybe a sign of high levels of charming skills if you can make people (or teacher, police, boss, parents, etc) think you are innocent.

    -

    By the way, I wonder why they developed such a friendly personality there? I was enjoying speculating something like claims Japanese became very polite, because they were without weapons, under control of samurais. Maybe Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills against English.


    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I’m not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.
     
    What it is said by Irish cultural about politics, is "we always support the weaker side", because the mainstream attitude is to view themselves as victims of imperialism.

    So they (I mean mainstream of culture) view themselves like they victims of history, like another African-Americans or Native Indians. It's not really the same as "woke" of the UK, as it doesn't exactly involve as self-flagellation. Still it is something like "woke allies". Whereas in the Kingdom, the woke view is that to admit they were imperialists, and then self-flagellate.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @LatW

  54. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker
     
    That's the case for all of Eastern Europe, no? It's similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats. Religion becomes an identity marker and on some level tied to ethnicity. This is ironic given the low levels of genuine religiosity in these countries.

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I've seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church. Putin's public displays of Orthodox piety is not matched by the church-avoiding youth. Yet public declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin - without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    This pattern repeats itself in country after country in Eastern Europe. A naïve analysis would conclude that Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn't the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by 'disapora nationalists', projecting their fantasies onto societies that do not conform to their cherished ideals.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP, @Dmitry

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I’ve seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church.

    It is rapidly secularizing from a very high base. There is much room to secularize. A country that is already completely secular can’t secularize much.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-world-are-less-religious-by-several-measures/

    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.

    Overall Polish rate is higher than any Western nation. Even the Polish under 40 rate (26%) is higher than the overall rate anywhere in Europe.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.

    Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case.

    Weekly Church attendance is much higher among Poles than among Western Europeans (see above).

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.

    Poland has low rates of divorce and children being born out of wedlock:

    I posted this map before on the massive open thread with about 1000 posts, so you may have missed it:

    The old territory of the Second Polish Republic, encompassing most of Poland plus western Ukraine and western Belarus, is a sort of island of low out-of-wedlock births.

    a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’

    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.
     
    Absolutely, but the trend is undeniable. I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised. These things happen blazingly fast and it's already under way.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.
     
    This is my argument. Public identification in Eastern Europe with religion typically has more to do with ethnicity and national belonging than tracking closely to actual religious observance and participation. Poland is no different in this regard.

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.
     
    But widespread. Look at what people do, not what their law says.

    children being born out of wedlock
     
    Fair point, but rising very quickly. Let's linger on your graph a little bit.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?


    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.
     
    In terms of pre-marital sex, abortion (illegal ones counted) and church attendence for the youth, the differences between East and West are vastly overblown. In terms of attitudes on race and immigration, I'd say most of Eastern Europe is where the USA was in the early 1990s. Basically moderately liberal with small-c conservative leanings.

    I think there will be full social convergence within the next 20-30 years at the latest between the EU's western and eastern wings.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AP, @sher singh

  55. Inger Støjberg: Denmark’s ex-immigration minister convicted over illegal asylum seeker policy:

    [MORE]

    A former Danish minister has been convicted of illegally separating asylum-seeking couples where one partner was under 18.

    Inger Støjberg was found guilty in a rare impeachment trial and sentenced to 60 days in prison on Monday.

    The court found that the former minister had neglected her ministerial duties “intentionally or through gross negligence”.

    Judges also found Støjberg guilty of providing parliament with “incorrect or misleading information” and agreed that the order had violated Danish law and the European Convention on Human Rights.

    It was the first time the Court of Impeachment had been convened in Denmark in 26 years.

    Støjberg has maintained her innocence and said she was “very surprised” at the verdict, which cannot be appealed.

    MPs will now decide whether she can continue to serve as a member of the 179-seat Folketing.

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/13/inger-st-jberg-denmark-s-ex-immigration-minister-convicted-of-impeachment-over-asylum-poli

  56. @Aedib
    @Thulean Friend

    I'm astonished. German Atlanticists seems so subservient that they are even prone to sacrifice the German world-class industry in the altar of the Atlanticist ideology. They are mongrelizing and destroying the foundation of their formerly marvelous country.
    The most bizarre thing is that Russians are profiting by "not opening" NS2.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @sudden death

    It’s not ideology. It is subservience to the real ruler of Europe: The United States of America.

    I am not exaggerating when I call Europe nothing but a mere collection of puppet states of the US. Germany is by far the most powerful country in the EU and even they have been struggling enormously to get through a common-sense policy like the NS2. What hope is there for less powerful countries? I think Germans will ultimately get it through but this kind of brutal uphill battle for a core national strategic interest is insane.

    This also has implications in the China vs America debates. Most non-Europeans underestimate just to what extent Europe is craven to US diktat. It goes beyond alliances and into the realm of colonialism. China has nothing comparable in size or nature – and never will.

  57. @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I’ve seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church.
     
    It is rapidly secularizing from a very high base. There is much room to secularize. A country that is already completely secular can't secularize much.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-world-are-less-religious-by-several-measures/

    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.

    https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/06/PF.06.13.18_religiouscommitment-03-08-.png

    Overall Polish rate is higher than any Western nation. Even the Polish under 40 rate (26%) is higher than the overall rate anywhere in Europe.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles - 6% lower than among older Poles.

    Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case.
     
    Weekly Church attendance is much higher among Poles than among Western Europeans (see above).

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.

    Poland has low rates of divorce and children being born out of wedlock:

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    I posted this map before on the massive open thread with about 1000 posts, so you may have missed it:

    https://miro.medium.com/max/494/1*wYrJCH4UWW-yK6US3tJNbA.png

    The old territory of the Second Polish Republic, encompassing most of Poland plus western Ukraine and western Belarus, is a sort of island of low out-of-wedlock births.

    a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’
     
    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.

    Absolutely, but the trend is undeniable. I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised. These things happen blazingly fast and it’s already under way.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.

    This is my argument. Public identification in Eastern Europe with religion typically has more to do with ethnicity and national belonging than tracking closely to actual religious observance and participation. Poland is no different in this regard.

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.

    But widespread. Look at what people do, not what their law says.

    children being born out of wedlock

    Fair point, but rising very quickly. Let’s linger on your graph a little bit.

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?

    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.

    In terms of pre-marital sex, abortion (illegal ones counted) and church attendence for the youth, the differences between East and West are vastly overblown. In terms of attitudes on race and immigration, I’d say most of Eastern Europe is where the USA was in the early 1990s. Basically moderately liberal with small-c conservative leanings.

    I think there will be full social convergence within the next 20-30 years at the latest between the EU’s western and eastern wings.

    • Agree: sher singh
    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Thulean Friend

    It was pretty easy for the ordinary person to relate to Jesus' life even in living memory. Especially for children, who ran around throwing rocks at things, reading books and doing stuff you find in the Bible. But technology has changed the texture of this immeasurably and seemingly exponentially.

    What is leprosy? What is going on a lake? Looking after sheep? What are sheep? How many TikTok followers did Jesus have? Why was Mary having a kid as teenager? Didn't she have school or contraception? What about David? He threw a stone at someone? Did he use a Spotfiy playing to send Saul to sleep?

    When Hollywood remade Casino Royale, they made Bond impressive for the current year. Even though the gap was only some decades. Tradition carries some legitimacy, but so does relevance, and traditional legitimacy and relevance are ever more sharply opposed by technological progress. Islam is long progressed on the path that Christianity took. Judaism followed Christianity a hundred years ago. The only religions that thrive have separated themselves off entirely, structuring their ways of life to be distant from modern technological ways of living. An effective spiritual system would allow for constant updates. Not necessarily to morals, but to myth! As myth is important and must be relevant. Pagan myths are easier to adjust than monotheistic ones, but they lose for other reasons.

    Traditionalists think they just need to hold fast more on traditional morals, but traditionalists have always thought that. They're shockingly guilty of what they would never suspect of themselves, which is entirely non-spiritual and materialist thinking. It isn't the morals that matter, but the myths. Update the myths through spiritual revelation and feeling and you will pass on the morals. The morals don't sustain themselves. Without the spirituality, they are just Karens karenning and bloated old men carping.

    Obviously it won't be easy. Spiritual revelation is simply not a skill which the vast majority of the conservative religious possess. Far too many of them think that mouthing someone else's words is faith and confuse the fact that they want to tell people, including themselves, how to live, with true religiosity. They're yet another cargo cult of the right. They're all study and admonishment but no "connection." Meanwhile, progressive gender ideology and other limited and distorted forms of spirituality trounce all opposition among the young because they have no opposition where it matters. They have badly mutated and weak revelation, whereas their conservative opposition is trying to do faith by the numbers. It is all pretty ironic.

    , @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised
     
    Likely, often history repeats itself but sometimes it rhymes, and other times it does something surprising (World War II ended in a radically different way from the first war).

    The West is somewhat discredited now, in comparison to how it was when it became Woke. Poles like Scandinavians (woke) but dislike woke Germans. They also admire Italians, who are the least woke of the Western European peoples. And of trends trends seem to be reversing in France. So while it seems clear that Poland is shifting to the left, it is not yet clear how far it will go.

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?
     
    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why. In Italy the most popular party among those under 30 is the neo-fascist one Brothers of Italy. They and their allies are leading in the general election poll:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/far-right-parties-lead-italian-polls/

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @sher singh
    @Thulean Friend

    late 90s* https://www.unz.com/akarlin/race-realism-in-europe/

    This is my point, these niggas argue the same topics year after year seemingly oblivious to real world, where cuckservative is just an early 2000s islamophobic lib.

    https://twitter.com/terrorhousemag/status/1155158534620950528?s=20

    How nice of you to not only rape their kids, but teach them how to as well, Mr Baroque Spaniard.


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AP

  58. @Aedib
    @Thulean Friend

    I'm astonished. German Atlanticists seems so subservient that they are even prone to sacrifice the German world-class industry in the altar of the Atlanticist ideology. They are mongrelizing and destroying the foundation of their formerly marvelous country.
    The most bizarre thing is that Russians are profiting by "not opening" NS2.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @sudden death

    Those poor German industrialists have been forewarned or straightout colluded and bought needed quantities of gas in advance at low prices in the summer and pumped it to their own storages, so it’s nothing but crocodile tears regarding their cruel fate. Also there is no better cure from excess gazpromophilia than absurd gas prices as it makes instalation of all other power sources way more profitable too, e.g. Finland new nuclear station will be profitable despite neverending delays 😉

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @sudden death

    The main reason of these absurd gas prices is the shutdown of nuclear power stations.

    Replies: @sudden death

  59. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.
     
    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn't de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ruinas-saomiguel13.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/19510452_303.jpg

    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    "These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay's Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans' shops, and schools of music and painting."

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeYBdGN7OQ

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-"gods" to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    "A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer."

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.


    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.
     
    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Hyperborean, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    Your photos remind me of churches and ruins that I’ve seen in Costa Rica:


    Exterior of the ruins of the Santiago Apostol church in Cartago, Costa Rica.


    Basilica de Nuestra Senora de los Angeles in Cartago in Costa Rica.

  60. This neo-gothic masterpiece is located in Coronado near San Jose about a 10 minute walk from where my friend lives. Costa Rica is dotted with many spectacular Roman Catholic churches, not all look alike!

  61. What is being discussed at a similar forum in Russia
    “..Gas in Europe is confidently trading for more than 1500..”

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Mike_from_Russia

    They are the echoes of Annalena Baerbock's words.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia

  62. @A123
    @Max Demian

    Leftoid Iffen was making an oblique reference to "A Christmas Story"

    https://youtu.be/qgjPa5JkecA?t=1

    As a low-IQ, #NeverTrump yahoo he is doing the best he can with staggeringly limited mental capabilities.

    I feel pity for him. I would help Iffen if I could but....

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @iffen

    One would think that a bot, even a beta version, would be able to find the definition of a NeverTrumper.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @iffen

    Anything that falls outside his political ideology is a #NeverTrumper.

    A123's views are comparable to Trump's at places (e.g. economic nationalism), but Trump is Godless and politically expedient, unlike say, A123's hatred for political Islam & China, or his view of collaboration between geopolitical powers of the same race/religion.

    Replies: @A123

  63. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.
     
    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn't de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ruinas-saomiguel13.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/19510452_303.jpg

    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    "These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay's Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans' shops, and schools of music and painting."

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeYBdGN7OQ

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-"gods" to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    "A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer."

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.


    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.
     
    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Hyperborean, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.

    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with ‘mostly slaughtering the natives’, it feels like a moot point.

    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Let us just take the Pope’s word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix was modelled on one owned by Luís Espinal, a Jesuit priest, journalist and leftwing activist who was murdered by paramilitaries in 1980, when Bolivia was under a dictatorship.

    On Wednesday night, Francis halted his popemobile from the airport to pray at the site where Espinal’s body was found.

    “Dear sisters and brothers. I stopped here to greet you and above all to remember. To remember a brother, our brother, a victim of interests who did not want him to fight for the freedom of Bolivia,” the pope said on the scheduled stop.

    He also reportedly received a medal, bearing a hammer and sickle, from Morales that was issued in memory of Espinal’s death.

    Lombardi said he personally wasn’t offended by Morales’ gift. “You can dispute the significance and use of the symbol now, but the origin is from Espinal and the sense of it was about an open dialogue, not about a specific ideology,” Lombardi said.

    The Argentinian pope has been criticised in some quarters for not doing more to protect leftwing priests during the military dictatorship in his homeland. But since becoming pope in 2013, he has taken steps to reconcile the Vatican with progressive adherents of Liberation Theology, who argue that the Church should agitate for social and political change.

    In Bolivia, Morales – a former coca farmer from an indigenous community – previously upset many in the local clergy by declaring the country secular in a new constitution. However, he has embraced the pope and praised him for supporting poor and marginalised groups.

    Francis has used this trip to Latin America emphasize the problems faced by indigenous communities and to warn against “all totalitarian, ideological or sectarian schemes”.

    On Thursday he urged the downtrodden to change the world economic order, denouncing a “new colonialism” by agencies that impose austerity programmes and calling for the poor to have the “sacred rights” of labor, lodging and land.

    In one of the longest, most passionate and sweeping speeches of his pontificate, the Argentine-born pope also asked forgiveness for the sins committed by the Roman Catholic Church in its treatment of native Americans during what he called the “so-called conquest of America”.

    Quoting a fourth century bishop, he called the unfettered pursuit of money “the dung of the devil,” and said poor countries should not be reduced to being providers of raw material and cheap labour for developed countries.

    Repeating some of the themes of his landmark encyclical “Laudato Si” on the environment last month, Francis said time was running out to save the planet from perhaps irreversible harm to the ecosystem.

    “Let us not be afraid to say it: we want change, real change, structural change,” the pope said, decrying a system that “has imposed the mentality of profit at any price, with no concern for social exclusion or the destruction of nature.“

    “This system is by now intolerable: farm workers find it intolerable, laborers find it intolerable, communities find it intolerable, peoples find it intolerable The Earth itself – our sister, Mother Earth, as Saint Francis would say – also finds it intolerable,” he said in an hour-long speech that was interrupted by applause and cheering dozens of times.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/bolivia-communist-crucifix-gift-pope-francis?espv=1

    Granted Bolivian paganism is more like Gaia than Mexican Satanism, but in both cases it is a native version of wokeism that has nothing do with Protestant interference.

    The unique belief system enjoyed renewed attention and celebration during Morales’ nearly 14-year-presidency, a time when he routinely performed Pachamama acts at official government ceremonies. An animated film called Pachamama debuted last year on Netflix, telling the story of 10-year-old Andean boy during the time of the Spanish conquest of Bolivia.

    The fusion of Roman Catholic and indigenous traditions goes on display each year in the early part of summer during a celebration called the feast of the Great Power in La Paz. Dancers wearing elaborate and colorful costumes fill the streets representing Andean folklore in celebration of a 17th century painting of Jesus Christ with native features .

    The patron saint to Bolivia, the Virgen of Copacabana, was discovered and sculpted by an indigenous after the Spanish arrive. Because of that, to some it’s a visual representation of the Pachamama even though it’s a Catholic saint.

    The blend of Christian and ancestral beliefs started by indigenous Bolivians who camouflaged their beliefs under Catholic ones, anthropologists say, but it has become more commonplace in recent history to publicly embrace both, especially during Morales’ presidency. Called religious syncretism, it is recognized by Bolivia’s constitution under the term “Andean cosmovision,” and it is widely practiced by many in the mostly indigenous South American country.

    Morales upset some Catholics because he rewrote the constitution in 2009, stripping special recognition given to the Roman Catholic church. But local Bolivian Catholic priests don’t seem to harbor any ill-will, instead reflecting the symbiotic relationship that exists at the pew level in Bolivia.

    “Our mission today is to avoid confrontation and understand the Aymara/Inca culture,” said Friar Abelino Yeguaori, from inside the Basilica of Our Lady of Copacabana on the shores of Lake Titicaca. “In the church in Bolivia there is a consensus not to destroy, but to try and internalize the people’s faith.”

    https://apnews.com/article/south-america-lifestyle-lake-titicaca-bolivia-latin-america-32b018bd433d728ba1d29a7bebc6289f

    • Replies: @AP
    @Hyperborean


    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)
     

    Thank you for proving my point. From your link:

    "Antequera also accused the Jesuits of various crimes, demanded that the mission Indians under their care be enslaved and distributed to the citizens of Paraguay"

    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.


    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with ‘mostly slaughtering the natives’, it feels like a moot point.
     
    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren't genocided. Natives down there were soon attending European-style universities, putting on European concerts, etc. while the ones subjected to the Calvinists were just getting ethnically cleansed.

    Let us just take the Pope’s word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix
     

    I'm not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix - or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought? It's a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Hyperborean

    You can pretty much see how AP is prizing the general Catholic culture over native traditions, which would be easy if the natives were at an less-developed, inferior position to the colonizers, and AP's esthetic values are more aligned with Catholic or generally Romano-Germanic esthetics. But harder when Jesuits ended up in say, Ming China. At least in Macau, cathedrals co-existed with Ming Chinese housing and bureaucratic structures at the border.

    It might be ironic to see instead of Catholic Iberian culture replacing the Amerindian consciousness in the New World, Amerindian cultural forms are chewing Catholicism from inside because of some deliberate esthetic decisions. It's almost karmic.

  64. @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    This was because of the 2nd Vatican council in the 60s and the liberalisation of the Church, it moved away from the kind of teachings Franco and Salazar were familiar with
     
    Yes, it was in the context of clergy voicing pro-democracy sentiments iirc.

    The way I read it it is more about the Church teaching being a kind of moral or philosophical framework, like a constitution or ideology, than priests being able to control the temporal power politically
     
    You're probably right, but the experience of medieval and early modern Europe imo clearly indicates that even in societies which understood themselves as fundamentally Christian there always was great potential for friction and conflict between spiritual and temporal power, with much resentment among laymen against the privileges and immunities of the clergy (let alone such pretensions as the right to depose secular rulers which some medieval popes claimed). I need to read the book, to see if they adress this issue in any way.
    (on that note, I downloaded the book, and noticed that in the index it says about the two swords that both belong to St Peter. This was contested in the conflicts between the medieval papacy and the emperor/other secular rulers. The issue is whethe secular power is merely derived from the papacy with its power of the keys, or has an existence of its own - after all the empire existed before the papacy and in the minds of many medieval Christians had its own role in the salvational scheme. So these issues were a source of conflict even in medieval Christendom).

    That Integralism book has also been criticised (again, by more liberal Catholics) for repeating ‘reactionary’ or old fashioned teachings about immigration like these

     

    A presumably racialist reviewer on Amazon criticized it for being pro-immigration. I looked it up, and indeed in chapter 10 there's an argument that "the temporal commonwealth has a duty to harbour the outcast and must offer refuge according to its capacity to those in mortal need or fleeing unjust persecution". Now the question is what does mortal need mean? The footnote refers to an Apostolic Constitution by Pius XII from 1952, which apparently lists as possible reasons "revolutions in their own countries" (I presume mostly a reference to the Eastern bloc at the time), but also "unemployment or hunger". So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today's Catholic church that there's a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.
    But I really need to read the book, it looks interesting (don't know when I'll get around to it though).

    Replies: @Coconuts

    So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today’s Catholic church that there’s a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.

    With those reservations and what is written on p.207 and in note 80 I think this has always been the Catholic Church’s position on migration. But in that context I read mortal need to mean actual mortal need; in danger of death, so the economic reasons would be starvation or malnutrition of the migrants (I think the way it would be understood in the 1940s, because it was a more common situation). I suspect this line of argument would also be used to justify things like the founding of the USA in general.

    As I said I don’t think the book is setting out a practical political program, it’s aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Coconuts


    As I said I don’t think the book is setting out a practical political program, it’s aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.
     
    Among the integralists, is there anyone who has discussed what to do when condemned by the Papacy?

    How do they prevent something like Pius XI's excommunication of Charles Maurras and Leon Daudet and the prohibition of their writings from happening again? Particularly considering the doctrine of papal infallibility.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  65. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.
     
    Absolutely, but the trend is undeniable. I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised. These things happen blazingly fast and it's already under way.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.
     
    This is my argument. Public identification in Eastern Europe with religion typically has more to do with ethnicity and national belonging than tracking closely to actual religious observance and participation. Poland is no different in this regard.

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.
     
    But widespread. Look at what people do, not what their law says.

    children being born out of wedlock
     
    Fair point, but rising very quickly. Let's linger on your graph a little bit.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?


    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.
     
    In terms of pre-marital sex, abortion (illegal ones counted) and church attendence for the youth, the differences between East and West are vastly overblown. In terms of attitudes on race and immigration, I'd say most of Eastern Europe is where the USA was in the early 1990s. Basically moderately liberal with small-c conservative leanings.

    I think there will be full social convergence within the next 20-30 years at the latest between the EU's western and eastern wings.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AP, @sher singh

    It was pretty easy for the ordinary person to relate to Jesus’ life even in living memory. Especially for children, who ran around throwing rocks at things, reading books and doing stuff you find in the Bible. But technology has changed the texture of this immeasurably and seemingly exponentially.

    What is leprosy? What is going on a lake? Looking after sheep? What are sheep? How many TikTok followers did Jesus have? Why was Mary having a kid as teenager? Didn’t she have school or contraception? What about David? He threw a stone at someone? Did he use a Spotfiy playing to send Saul to sleep?

    When Hollywood remade Casino Royale, they made Bond impressive for the current year. Even though the gap was only some decades. Tradition carries some legitimacy, but so does relevance, and traditional legitimacy and relevance are ever more sharply opposed by technological progress. Islam is long progressed on the path that Christianity took. Judaism followed Christianity a hundred years ago. The only religions that thrive have separated themselves off entirely, structuring their ways of life to be distant from modern technological ways of living. An effective spiritual system would allow for constant updates. Not necessarily to morals, but to myth! As myth is important and must be relevant. Pagan myths are easier to adjust than monotheistic ones, but they lose for other reasons.

    Traditionalists think they just need to hold fast more on traditional morals, but traditionalists have always thought that. They’re shockingly guilty of what they would never suspect of themselves, which is entirely non-spiritual and materialist thinking. It isn’t the morals that matter, but the myths. Update the myths through spiritual revelation and feeling and you will pass on the morals. The morals don’t sustain themselves. Without the spirituality, they are just Karens karenning and bloated old men carping.

    Obviously it won’t be easy. Spiritual revelation is simply not a skill which the vast majority of the conservative religious possess. Far too many of them think that mouthing someone else’s words is faith and confuse the fact that they want to tell people, including themselves, how to live, with true religiosity. They’re yet another cargo cult of the right. They’re all study and admonishment but no “connection.” Meanwhile, progressive gender ideology and other limited and distorted forms of spirituality trounce all opposition among the young because they have no opposition where it matters. They have badly mutated and weak revelation, whereas their conservative opposition is trying to do faith by the numbers. It is all pretty ironic.

  66. @Coconuts
    @German_reader


    So even while there are some qualifying statements, this can still be construed as reasonably close to the position of today’s Catholic church that there’s a duty for richer states to accept migrants for purely economic reasons. This is a recipe for national suicide given the demographic realities of the 21st century.
     
    With those reservations and what is written on p.207 and in note 80 I think this has always been the Catholic Church's position on migration. But in that context I read mortal need to mean actual mortal need; in danger of death, so the economic reasons would be starvation or malnutrition of the migrants (I think the way it would be understood in the 1940s, because it was a more common situation). I suspect this line of argument would also be used to justify things like the founding of the USA in general.

    As I said I don't think the book is setting out a practical political program, it's aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    As I said I don’t think the book is setting out a practical political program, it’s aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.

    Among the integralists, is there anyone who has discussed what to do when condemned by the Papacy?

    How do they prevent something like Pius XI’s excommunication of Charles Maurras and Leon Daudet and the prohibition of their writings from happening again? Particularly considering the doctrine of papal infallibility.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Hyperborean

    AFAIK this was done using the Pope’s ordinary magisterium, not the infallible one, the interdict on Maurras and Action Francaise was lifted in 1939. Nor were Action Francaise supporters excommunicated, they just were not allowed to receive sacraments as long as they were active supporters of the movement.

    This didn’t affect Maurras personally because he was an agnostic (don’t know about Daudet), the reason for the interdict was that Maurras and other Action Francaise writers were openly agnostic or atheist in their books and promoted Catholicism for mainly political reasons; they were Catholic but not Christian.

  67. @Hyperborean
    @Coconuts


    As I said I don’t think the book is setting out a practical political program, it’s aimed at describing an alternative to the political philosophy and ideology of Liberalism. This is why it starts from first principles; what is politics, what is the purpose of politics and political systems etc.
     
    Among the integralists, is there anyone who has discussed what to do when condemned by the Papacy?

    How do they prevent something like Pius XI's excommunication of Charles Maurras and Leon Daudet and the prohibition of their writings from happening again? Particularly considering the doctrine of papal infallibility.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    AFAIK this was done using the Pope’s ordinary magisterium, not the infallible one, the interdict on Maurras and Action Francaise was lifted in 1939. Nor were Action Francaise supporters excommunicated, they just were not allowed to receive sacraments as long as they were active supporters of the movement.

    This didn’t affect Maurras personally because he was an agnostic (don’t know about Daudet), the reason for the interdict was that Maurras and other Action Francaise writers were openly agnostic or atheist in their books and promoted Catholicism for mainly political reasons; they were Catholic but not Christian.

  68. @songbird
    Another horror idea: find a near double of Tony Blair, who I think must be the slimiest-looking person in history, and try to bridge the rest of the gap with make-up and acting. Turn him into a character actor, doing the sort of roles that made Peter Lorre, Christopher Lee, and Bela Lugosi famous.

    Replies: @Pericles

    “Dear audience, sit back, relax and watch some true horror.”

    • LOL: songbird
  69. @Hyperborean
    @AP


    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.
     

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)


    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.
     
    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with 'mostly slaughtering the natives', it feels like a moot point.

    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.
     
    Let us just take the Pope's word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix was modelled on one owned by Luís Espinal, a Jesuit priest, journalist and leftwing activist who was murdered by paramilitaries in 1980, when Bolivia was under a dictatorship.

    On Wednesday night, Francis halted his popemobile from the airport to pray at the site where Espinal’s body was found.

    “Dear sisters and brothers. I stopped here to greet you and above all to remember. To remember a brother, our brother, a victim of interests who did not want him to fight for the freedom of Bolivia,” the pope said on the scheduled stop.

    He also reportedly received a medal, bearing a hammer and sickle, from Morales that was issued in memory of Espinal’s death.

    Lombardi said he personally wasn’t offended by Morales’ gift. “You can dispute the significance and use of the symbol now, but the origin is from Espinal and the sense of it was about an open dialogue, not about a specific ideology,” Lombardi said.

    The Argentinian pope has been criticised in some quarters for not doing more to protect leftwing priests during the military dictatorship in his homeland. But since becoming pope in 2013, he has taken steps to reconcile the Vatican with progressive adherents of Liberation Theology, who argue that the Church should agitate for social and political change.

    In Bolivia, Morales – a former coca farmer from an indigenous community – previously upset many in the local clergy by declaring the country secular in a new constitution. However, he has embraced the pope and praised him for supporting poor and marginalised groups.

    Francis has used this trip to Latin America emphasize the problems faced by indigenous communities and to warn against “all totalitarian, ideological or sectarian schemes”.

    On Thursday he urged the downtrodden to change the world economic order, denouncing a “new colonialism” by agencies that impose austerity programmes and calling for the poor to have the “sacred rights” of labor, lodging and land.

    In one of the longest, most passionate and sweeping speeches of his pontificate, the Argentine-born pope also asked forgiveness for the sins committed by the Roman Catholic Church in its treatment of native Americans during what he called the “so-called conquest of America”.

    Quoting a fourth century bishop, he called the unfettered pursuit of money “the dung of the devil,” and said poor countries should not be reduced to being providers of raw material and cheap labour for developed countries.

    Repeating some of the themes of his landmark encyclical “Laudato Si” on the environment last month, Francis said time was running out to save the planet from perhaps irreversible harm to the ecosystem.

    “Let us not be afraid to say it: we want change, real change, structural change,” the pope said, decrying a system that “has imposed the mentality of profit at any price, with no concern for social exclusion or the destruction of nature.“

    “This system is by now intolerable: farm workers find it intolerable, laborers find it intolerable, communities find it intolerable, peoples find it intolerable The Earth itself – our sister, Mother Earth, as Saint Francis would say – also finds it intolerable,” he said in an hour-long speech that was interrupted by applause and cheering dozens of times.
     

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/bolivia-communist-crucifix-gift-pope-francis?espv=1

    Granted Bolivian paganism is more like Gaia than Mexican Satanism, but in both cases it is a native version of wokeism that has nothing do with Protestant interference.


    The unique belief system enjoyed renewed attention and celebration during Morales’ nearly 14-year-presidency, a time when he routinely performed Pachamama acts at official government ceremonies. An animated film called Pachamama debuted last year on Netflix, telling the story of 10-year-old Andean boy during the time of the Spanish conquest of Bolivia.

    The fusion of Roman Catholic and indigenous traditions goes on display each year in the early part of summer during a celebration called the feast of the Great Power in La Paz. Dancers wearing elaborate and colorful costumes fill the streets representing Andean folklore in celebration of a 17th century painting of Jesus Christ with native features .

    The patron saint to Bolivia, the Virgen of Copacabana, was discovered and sculpted by an indigenous after the Spanish arrive. Because of that, to some it’s a visual representation of the Pachamama even though it’s a Catholic saint.

    The blend of Christian and ancestral beliefs started by indigenous Bolivians who camouflaged their beliefs under Catholic ones, anthropologists say, but it has become more commonplace in recent history to publicly embrace both, especially during Morales’ presidency. Called religious syncretism, it is recognized by Bolivia’s constitution under the term “Andean cosmovision,” and it is widely practiced by many in the mostly indigenous South American country.

    Morales upset some Catholics because he rewrote the constitution in 2009, stripping special recognition given to the Roman Catholic church. But local Bolivian Catholic priests don’t seem to harbor any ill-will, instead reflecting the symbiotic relationship that exists at the pew level in Bolivia.

    “Our mission today is to avoid confrontation and understand the Aymara/Inca culture,” said Friar Abelino Yeguaori, from inside the Basilica of Our Lady of Copacabana on the shores of Lake Titicaca. “In the church in Bolivia there is a consensus not to destroy, but to try and internalize the people’s faith.”
     

    https://apnews.com/article/south-america-lifestyle-lake-titicaca-bolivia-latin-america-32b018bd433d728ba1d29a7bebc6289f

    Replies: @AP, @Yellowface Anon

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)

    Thank you for proving my point. From your link:

    “Antequera also accused the Jesuits of various crimes, demanded that the mission Indians under their care be enslaved and distributed to the citizens of Paraguay”

    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.

    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with ‘mostly slaughtering the natives’, it feels like a moot point.

    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren’t genocided. Natives down there were soon attending European-style universities, putting on European concerts, etc. while the ones subjected to the Calvinists were just getting ethnically cleansed.

    Let us just take the Pope’s word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix

    I’m not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix – or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought? It’s a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @AP


    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.
     
    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish. From an Amerindian perspective the Jesuits can certainly be seen as helpful, but the Jesuits wished for their own private clerical domain and not to integrate them into the Empire.

    Rancor increased as the Jesuits persuaded the Spanish king to exclude all Europeans, Africans and mestizos (mixed-race people) from entering the pueblos or making contact with the Guaraní. The Jesuits also forbade the use of European languages in their territory. Knowledge of Guaraní grammar, vocabulary and the spoken language was a great advantage for the Jesuits in their efforts to catechize and control the populace.
     
    https://www.historynet.com/fighting-fathers-of-the-guarani-war.htm

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/4l9fbe/a_map_of_paraguay_based_on_the_results_for_first/


    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren’t genocided.
     
    More a matter of pre-invasion population density and colonial and post-independence settlement patterns than the scale of massacres.

    Were Brazilian and Argentinian settlers also 'filthy Calvinists', unlike their neighbours to the west?

    https://journals.openedition.org/belgeo/docannexe/image/11594/img-7-small580.jpg


    I’m not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix – or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought?

     

    Did you even read down to Pope Francis' speech or the part about Bolivia? Their intentions are very clear.

    It’s a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.
     
    Is wokism

    A) A uniquely Protestant heresy

    Or

    B) A wholesale rejection of Christianity?

    Either wokism is a Protestant heresy, in which case it can't be unique to Protestants because we see the exact same movements in Catholicism, or it has little to do with Christianity and your condemnation of Protestantism on this point is ill placed.

    Replies: @AP

  70. @iffen
    @A123

    One would think that a bot, even a beta version, would be able to find the definition of a NeverTrumper.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Anything that falls outside his political ideology is a #NeverTrumper.

    [MORE]

    A123’s views are comparable to Trump’s at places (e.g. economic nationalism), but Trump is Godless and politically expedient, unlike say, A123’s hatred for political Islam & China, or his view of collaboration between geopolitical powers of the same race/religion.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Yellowface Anon

    The fact the Iffen is a #NeverTrump acolyte is quite obvious and irrefutable.

    • He repeatedly lies about Trump, blaming him for things beyond his control.
    • He keeps trying to sabotage high-IQ communications methods with broad gender appeal. Most notably #LetsGoBrandon as a technique.

    What is puzzling -- As an obvious #Bidenista, why does Iffen attempt to deny his support for the current occupied White House?
    ____

    I never claimed to be 100% agreement with Trump about everything. I would have made some different choices.

    The critical part is recognizing that MAGA never had the House or Senate during Trump's 1st Term. That greatly limited what he was able to do. People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @iffen

  71. @Hyperborean
    @AP


    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.
     

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)


    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.
     
    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with 'mostly slaughtering the natives', it feels like a moot point.

    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.
     
    Let us just take the Pope's word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix was modelled on one owned by Luís Espinal, a Jesuit priest, journalist and leftwing activist who was murdered by paramilitaries in 1980, when Bolivia was under a dictatorship.

    On Wednesday night, Francis halted his popemobile from the airport to pray at the site where Espinal’s body was found.

    “Dear sisters and brothers. I stopped here to greet you and above all to remember. To remember a brother, our brother, a victim of interests who did not want him to fight for the freedom of Bolivia,” the pope said on the scheduled stop.

    He also reportedly received a medal, bearing a hammer and sickle, from Morales that was issued in memory of Espinal’s death.

    Lombardi said he personally wasn’t offended by Morales’ gift. “You can dispute the significance and use of the symbol now, but the origin is from Espinal and the sense of it was about an open dialogue, not about a specific ideology,” Lombardi said.

    The Argentinian pope has been criticised in some quarters for not doing more to protect leftwing priests during the military dictatorship in his homeland. But since becoming pope in 2013, he has taken steps to reconcile the Vatican with progressive adherents of Liberation Theology, who argue that the Church should agitate for social and political change.

    In Bolivia, Morales – a former coca farmer from an indigenous community – previously upset many in the local clergy by declaring the country secular in a new constitution. However, he has embraced the pope and praised him for supporting poor and marginalised groups.

    Francis has used this trip to Latin America emphasize the problems faced by indigenous communities and to warn against “all totalitarian, ideological or sectarian schemes”.

    On Thursday he urged the downtrodden to change the world economic order, denouncing a “new colonialism” by agencies that impose austerity programmes and calling for the poor to have the “sacred rights” of labor, lodging and land.

    In one of the longest, most passionate and sweeping speeches of his pontificate, the Argentine-born pope also asked forgiveness for the sins committed by the Roman Catholic Church in its treatment of native Americans during what he called the “so-called conquest of America”.

    Quoting a fourth century bishop, he called the unfettered pursuit of money “the dung of the devil,” and said poor countries should not be reduced to being providers of raw material and cheap labour for developed countries.

    Repeating some of the themes of his landmark encyclical “Laudato Si” on the environment last month, Francis said time was running out to save the planet from perhaps irreversible harm to the ecosystem.

    “Let us not be afraid to say it: we want change, real change, structural change,” the pope said, decrying a system that “has imposed the mentality of profit at any price, with no concern for social exclusion or the destruction of nature.“

    “This system is by now intolerable: farm workers find it intolerable, laborers find it intolerable, communities find it intolerable, peoples find it intolerable The Earth itself – our sister, Mother Earth, as Saint Francis would say – also finds it intolerable,” he said in an hour-long speech that was interrupted by applause and cheering dozens of times.
     

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/bolivia-communist-crucifix-gift-pope-francis?espv=1

    Granted Bolivian paganism is more like Gaia than Mexican Satanism, but in both cases it is a native version of wokeism that has nothing do with Protestant interference.


    The unique belief system enjoyed renewed attention and celebration during Morales’ nearly 14-year-presidency, a time when he routinely performed Pachamama acts at official government ceremonies. An animated film called Pachamama debuted last year on Netflix, telling the story of 10-year-old Andean boy during the time of the Spanish conquest of Bolivia.

    The fusion of Roman Catholic and indigenous traditions goes on display each year in the early part of summer during a celebration called the feast of the Great Power in La Paz. Dancers wearing elaborate and colorful costumes fill the streets representing Andean folklore in celebration of a 17th century painting of Jesus Christ with native features .

    The patron saint to Bolivia, the Virgen of Copacabana, was discovered and sculpted by an indigenous after the Spanish arrive. Because of that, to some it’s a visual representation of the Pachamama even though it’s a Catholic saint.

    The blend of Christian and ancestral beliefs started by indigenous Bolivians who camouflaged their beliefs under Catholic ones, anthropologists say, but it has become more commonplace in recent history to publicly embrace both, especially during Morales’ presidency. Called religious syncretism, it is recognized by Bolivia’s constitution under the term “Andean cosmovision,” and it is widely practiced by many in the mostly indigenous South American country.

    Morales upset some Catholics because he rewrote the constitution in 2009, stripping special recognition given to the Roman Catholic church. But local Bolivian Catholic priests don’t seem to harbor any ill-will, instead reflecting the symbiotic relationship that exists at the pew level in Bolivia.

    “Our mission today is to avoid confrontation and understand the Aymara/Inca culture,” said Friar Abelino Yeguaori, from inside the Basilica of Our Lady of Copacabana on the shores of Lake Titicaca. “In the church in Bolivia there is a consensus not to destroy, but to try and internalize the people’s faith.”
     

    https://apnews.com/article/south-america-lifestyle-lake-titicaca-bolivia-latin-america-32b018bd433d728ba1d29a7bebc6289f

    Replies: @AP, @Yellowface Anon

    You can pretty much see how AP is prizing the general Catholic culture over native traditions, which would be easy if the natives were at an less-developed, inferior position to the colonizers, and AP’s esthetic values are more aligned with Catholic or generally Romano-Germanic esthetics. But harder when Jesuits ended up in say, Ming China. At least in Macau, cathedrals co-existed with Ming Chinese housing and bureaucratic structures at the border.

    It might be ironic to see instead of Catholic Iberian culture replacing the Amerindian consciousness in the New World, Amerindian cultural forms are chewing Catholicism from inside because of some deliberate esthetic decisions. It’s almost karmic.

  72. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.
     
    Absolutely, but the trend is undeniable. I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised. These things happen blazingly fast and it's already under way.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.
     
    This is my argument. Public identification in Eastern Europe with religion typically has more to do with ethnicity and national belonging than tracking closely to actual religious observance and participation. Poland is no different in this regard.

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.
     
    But widespread. Look at what people do, not what their law says.

    children being born out of wedlock
     
    Fair point, but rising very quickly. Let's linger on your graph a little bit.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?


    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.
     
    In terms of pre-marital sex, abortion (illegal ones counted) and church attendence for the youth, the differences between East and West are vastly overblown. In terms of attitudes on race and immigration, I'd say most of Eastern Europe is where the USA was in the early 1990s. Basically moderately liberal with small-c conservative leanings.

    I think there will be full social convergence within the next 20-30 years at the latest between the EU's western and eastern wings.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AP, @sher singh

    I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised

    Likely, often history repeats itself but sometimes it rhymes, and other times it does something surprising (World War II ended in a radically different way from the first war).

    The West is somewhat discredited now, in comparison to how it was when it became Woke. Poles like Scandinavians (woke) but dislike woke Germans. They also admire Italians, who are the least woke of the Western European peoples. And of trends trends seem to be reversing in France. So while it seems clear that Poland is shifting to the left, it is not yet clear how far it will go.

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?

    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why. In Italy the most popular party among those under 30 is the neo-fascist one Brothers of Italy. They and their allies are leading in the general election poll:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/far-right-parties-lead-italian-polls/

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AP


    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why.
     
    Well, there's always multiple factors at play but the most important part of the explanation to this mystery is not very difficult to unravel. Just like 60 years of communism inoculated some Europeans against leftist fantasies, 40 years of clerical-nationalism inoculated others against right-wing extremism and to a large extent against religion itself.

    At the end of Franco's dictatorship and return to democracy being right-wing was very uncool, especially among younger people. In Italy, by contrast, being neo-fascist was transgressive and thus attractive for the young.

    What is surprising is how long these tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans may well never catch-up in wokeness to Westerners. In fact, that is what I perceive with my Polish son and his friends, all in their twenties. They are quite tolerant in sexual matters, including towards the LGB stuff, but otherwise they are very right-wing, particularly in racial and immigration matters. Religion is at best performative, I don't know that any of them is an observant Catholic.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Agathoklis

  73. @sudden death
    @Aedib

    Those poor German industrialists have been forewarned or straightout colluded and bought needed quantities of gas in advance at low prices in the summer and pumped it to their own storages, so it's nothing but crocodile tears regarding their cruel fate. Also there is no better cure from excess gazpromophilia than absurd gas prices as it makes instalation of all other power sources way more profitable too, e.g. Finland new nuclear station will be profitable despite neverending delays ;)

    Replies: @Aedib

    The main reason of these absurd gas prices is the shutdown of nuclear power stations.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Aedib

    It is kinda self correcting problem on longer term though, e.g. both France and Finland are opening new plants next year which will be profitable now even after long delays and overbudgeting, also are planing building new (FR 6, FI 1), so overall just these 9 new modern reactors will fully compensate closed 8 German ones on EU scale.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Aedib

  74. @Mike_from_Russia
    What is being discussed at a similar forum in Russia
    "..Gas in Europe is confidently trading for more than 1500.."
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/image%20%2810%29_1.png

    Replies: @Aedib

    They are the echoes of Annalena Baerbock’s words.

    • Replies: @Mike_from_Russia
    @Aedib

    On
    https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1043888
    "Has someone decided that 1500 is the limit? You're wrong. Asia has accepted the challenge"

    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u35972/2021/JKM-15dec.jpg

    Today, they have gained more than 20% during the trading session.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia

  75. @Aedib
    @sudden death

    The main reason of these absurd gas prices is the shutdown of nuclear power stations.

    Replies: @sudden death

    It is kinda self correcting problem on longer term though, e.g. both France and Finland are opening new plants next year which will be profitable now even after long delays and overbudgeting, also are planing building new (FR 6, FI 1), so overall just these 9 new modern reactors will fully compensate closed 8 German ones on EU scale.

    • Agree: AP, Aedib
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?

    Replies: @sudden death, @A123

    , @Aedib
    @sudden death


    1- A post-oil era is a myth. It is very doubtful that an alternative as versatile and practicable
    as oil,could totally replace oil in the next 100 years.
    2- There could never be a peak oil demand either throughout the 21st century and probably
    far beyond. How could the world feed a growing population projected to rise from 7.9
    billion today to 9.7 billion by 2050 and a global economy projected to grow in size from
    $91 trillion in 2021 to $245 trillion also by 2050 without oil?
    3- A total global energy transition is an illusion. Even a partial one will never succeed without
    huge contributions from natural gas and nuclear energy.
    4- The notion of net-zero emissions is a myth. It will never be achieved in 2050 or 2100 or
    ever.
    5- Oil and gas and nuclear will continue to be the core business of the global oil industry well into the
    future.
     

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  76. @sudden death
    @Aedib

    It is kinda self correcting problem on longer term though, e.g. both France and Finland are opening new plants next year which will be profitable now even after long delays and overbudgeting, also are planing building new (FR 6, FI 1), so overall just these 9 new modern reactors will fully compensate closed 8 German ones on EU scale.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Aedib

    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Suitable for both uses as Germany has energy links with France, Finland has such links with Sweden and Estonia, then the circle goes further - Estonia links with Latvia, Latvia with Lithuania and Lithuania back to Sweden through Baltic sea electricity link and Germany also has direct link to Scandinavian electricity market since last year, so it is all more or less, but interconnected now.

    , @A123
    @Yellowface Anon


    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?
     
    They are "market" plants so selling to Germany should not be a regulatory problem.

    The web of powerlines is so complex, it is hard to tell if sufficient transfer capacity exists. It looks like it, but one would need an expert to be sure.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    https://www.maproomblog.com/2018/05/european-electrical-grid/

     
    https://www.maproomblog.com/xq/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/entsoe-e-1024x512.jpg
  77. @Yellowface Anon
    @iffen

    Anything that falls outside his political ideology is a #NeverTrumper.

    A123's views are comparable to Trump's at places (e.g. economic nationalism), but Trump is Godless and politically expedient, unlike say, A123's hatred for political Islam & China, or his view of collaboration between geopolitical powers of the same race/religion.

    Replies: @A123

    The fact the Iffen is a #NeverTrump acolyte is quite obvious and irrefutable.

    • He repeatedly lies about Trump, blaming him for things beyond his control.
    • He keeps trying to sabotage high-IQ communications methods with broad gender appeal. Most notably #LetsGoBrandon as a technique.

    What is puzzling — As an obvious #Bidenista, why does Iffen attempt to deny his support for the current occupied White House?
    ____

    I never claimed to be 100% agreement with Trump about everything. I would have made some different choices.

    The critical part is recognizing that MAGA never had the House or Senate during Trump’s 1st Term. That greatly limited what he was able to do. People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @iffen
    @A123

    People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

  78. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Yet they managed to alienate the actual Europeans living there.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Comuneros_(Paraguay)
     

    Thank you for proving my point. From your link:

    "Antequera also accused the Jesuits of various crimes, demanded that the mission Indians under their care be enslaved and distributed to the citizens of Paraguay"

    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.


    Considering that the arrival of the very religious Conquistadors was also initiated with ‘mostly slaughtering the natives’, it feels like a moot point.
     
    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren't genocided. Natives down there were soon attending European-style universities, putting on European concerts, etc. while the ones subjected to the Calvinists were just getting ethnically cleansed.

    Let us just take the Pope’s word for it, or he also a secret Protestant agent?

    But it seems unlikely that the Pope would not have been completely unaware of the gift’s meaning. The [hammer and sickle] crucifix
     

    I'm not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix - or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought? It's a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.

    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish. From an Amerindian perspective the Jesuits can certainly be seen as helpful, but the Jesuits wished for their own private clerical domain and not to integrate them into the Empire.

    Rancor increased as the Jesuits persuaded the Spanish king to exclude all Europeans, Africans and mestizos (mixed-race people) from entering the pueblos or making contact with the Guaraní. The Jesuits also forbade the use of European languages in their territory. Knowledge of Guaraní grammar, vocabulary and the spoken language was a great advantage for the Jesuits in their efforts to catechize and control the populace.

    https://www.historynet.com/fighting-fathers-of-the-guarani-war.htm

    A map of Paraguay based on the results for first language in the 2002 census [571 × 749]. from MapPorn

    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren’t genocided.

    More a matter of pre-invasion population density and colonial and post-independence settlement patterns than the scale of massacres.

    Were Brazilian and Argentinian settlers also ‘filthy Calvinists’, unlike their neighbours to the west?

    I’m not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix – or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought?

    Did you even read down to Pope Francis’ speech or the part about Bolivia? Their intentions are very clear.

    It’s a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.

    Is wokism

    A) A uniquely Protestant heresy

    Or

    B) A wholesale rejection of Christianity?

    Either wokism is a Protestant heresy, in which case it can’t be unique to Protestants because we see the exact same movements in Catholicism, or it has little to do with Christianity and your condemnation of Protestantism on this point is ill placed.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Hyperborean


    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish
     
    They did not want to obliterate native culture as such, but to make it civilised and European. So the Indians retained their own language while leaving behind savage customs and religion and building Baroque churches, composing Baroque music using European instruments that they made , etc.

    I also suspect that Spanish frontier culture of those times was rather rough and full of sin, so a linguistic barrier would shield the Natives from that.

    New iOS update makes it difficult to cut and paste your original comment here. Addressing your comment about population density: on the chart you posted one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.

    Canadian Metis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis

    Russian-Native creoles in Alaska (where many Natives are Orthodox Christians):

    https://depts.washington.edu/cspn/creole-policy-and-practice-in-russian-america-iakov-egorovich-netsvetov/

    :::::::;;;:

    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean

  79. @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?

    Replies: @sudden death, @A123

    Suitable for both uses as Germany has energy links with France, Finland has such links with Sweden and Estonia, then the circle goes further – Estonia links with Latvia, Latvia with Lithuania and Lithuania back to Sweden through Baltic sea electricity link and Germany also has direct link to Scandinavian electricity market since last year, so it is all more or less, but interconnected now.

  80. @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?

    Replies: @sudden death, @A123

    Are those nuclear plants for national or EU-wide production?

    They are “market” plants so selling to Germany should not be a regulatory problem.

    The web of powerlines is so complex, it is hard to tell if sufficient transfer capacity exists. It looks like it, but one would need an expert to be sure.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    https://www.maproomblog.com/2018/05/european-electrical-grid/

     

  81. @Hyperborean
    @AP


    You had mistakenly claimed tat the Jesuits were involved in de-Europianization of Christianity. I had shown that it was the exact opposite. The European settlers in Paraguay did not want the Indians to become Europeanized: they wanted them to be dumb, savage slaves. They were acting like genocidal Calvinist filth. Jesuits taught the Indians how to become skillful builders of Baroque churches, practitioners and composers of European music, etc.
     
    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish. From an Amerindian perspective the Jesuits can certainly be seen as helpful, but the Jesuits wished for their own private clerical domain and not to integrate them into the Empire.

    Rancor increased as the Jesuits persuaded the Spanish king to exclude all Europeans, Africans and mestizos (mixed-race people) from entering the pueblos or making contact with the Guaraní. The Jesuits also forbade the use of European languages in their territory. Knowledge of Guaraní grammar, vocabulary and the spoken language was a great advantage for the Jesuits in their efforts to catechize and control the populace.
     
    https://www.historynet.com/fighting-fathers-of-the-guarani-war.htm

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/4l9fbe/a_map_of_paraguay_based_on_the_results_for_first/


    Nonsense. Most died from disease. These lands are still full of Mestizos, as would be expected since the natives weren’t genocided.
     
    More a matter of pre-invasion population density and colonial and post-independence settlement patterns than the scale of massacres.

    Were Brazilian and Argentinian settlers also 'filthy Calvinists', unlike their neighbours to the west?

    https://journals.openedition.org/belgeo/docannexe/image/11594/img-7-small580.jpg


    I’m not an expert on liberation theology. Are they profaning the Crucifix – or subverting Communism? Are they trying to assimilate Marxism into Christianity (thereby neutralizing it), as Christians had assimilated pagan thought?

     

    Did you even read down to Pope Francis' speech or the part about Bolivia? Their intentions are very clear.

    It’s a dangerous game but very different from the wholesale rejection of Christianity under the woke.
     
    Is wokism

    A) A uniquely Protestant heresy

    Or

    B) A wholesale rejection of Christianity?

    Either wokism is a Protestant heresy, in which case it can't be unique to Protestants because we see the exact same movements in Catholicism, or it has little to do with Christianity and your condemnation of Protestantism on this point is ill placed.

    Replies: @AP

    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish

    They did not want to obliterate native culture as such, but to make it civilised and European. So the Indians retained their own language while leaving behind savage customs and religion and building Baroque churches, composing Baroque music using European instruments that they made , etc.

    I also suspect that Spanish frontier culture of those times was rather rough and full of sin, so a linguistic barrier would shield the Natives from that.

    New iOS update makes it difficult to cut and paste your original comment here. Addressing your comment about population density: on the chart you posted one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.

    Canadian Metis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis

    Russian-Native creoles in Alaska (where many Natives are Orthodox Christians):

    https://depts.washington.edu/cspn/creole-policy-and-practice-in-russian-america-iakov-egorovich-netsvetov/

    :::::::;;;:

    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.
     
    Look at the annual temperature range of Buenos Aires, compare to New England. The Inca Empire included parts of Argentine. They had the potato, which was the most impressive New World crop.

    Again, Canada and Alaska are in a different climatic zone, harsher and more remote. Difficult to penetrate, which led to more mixing.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Hyperborean
    @AP


    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

     

    Right, if what you got out of that was 'A Trumpian could probably agree with them', I think I will just leave you to enjoy the hammer-and-sickle crucifixes and Pachamama.

    Replies: @AP

  82. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish
     
    They did not want to obliterate native culture as such, but to make it civilised and European. So the Indians retained their own language while leaving behind savage customs and religion and building Baroque churches, composing Baroque music using European instruments that they made , etc.

    I also suspect that Spanish frontier culture of those times was rather rough and full of sin, so a linguistic barrier would shield the Natives from that.

    New iOS update makes it difficult to cut and paste your original comment here. Addressing your comment about population density: on the chart you posted one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.

    Canadian Metis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis

    Russian-Native creoles in Alaska (where many Natives are Orthodox Christians):

    https://depts.washington.edu/cspn/creole-policy-and-practice-in-russian-america-iakov-egorovich-netsvetov/

    :::::::;;;:

    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean

    one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.

    Look at the annual temperature range of Buenos Aires, compare to New England. The Inca Empire included parts of Argentine. They had the potato, which was the most impressive New World crop.

    Again, Canada and Alaska are in a different climatic zone, harsher and more remote. Difficult to penetrate, which led to more mixing.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird

    Russians and French both produced mixed European-Native Creole classes in Alaska and Canada; Anglos have not.

    Replies: @songbird

  83. sher singh says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    55% of Poles over 40 attend church every week. 26% of Poles under 40 attend church every week. 1 in 4 going to church every week is still a lot compared to other countries. Young Poles go to church weekly at a rate that is 4 times greater than the general Swedish population.
     
    Absolutely, but the trend is undeniable. I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised. These things happen blazingly fast and it's already under way.

    Also, self-identification as Christians has declined very slightly among young Poles – 6% lower than among older Poles.
     
    This is my argument. Public identification in Eastern Europe with religion typically has more to do with ethnicity and national belonging than tracking closely to actual religious observance and participation. Poland is no different in this regard.

    Abortion is basically illegal in Poland.
     
    But widespread. Look at what people do, not what their law says.

    children being born out of wedlock
     
    Fair point, but rising very quickly. Let's linger on your graph a little bit.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321608/births+outside+marriage.png

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?


    The statistics show that Eastern European countries, particularly Poland, are a lot more socially conservative (though the trend is bad) than are western ones so it is not simply wishful thinking.
     
    In terms of pre-marital sex, abortion (illegal ones counted) and church attendence for the youth, the differences between East and West are vastly overblown. In terms of attitudes on race and immigration, I'd say most of Eastern Europe is where the USA was in the early 1990s. Basically moderately liberal with small-c conservative leanings.

    I think there will be full social convergence within the next 20-30 years at the latest between the EU's western and eastern wings.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AP, @sher singh

    late 90s* https://www.unz.com/akarlin/race-realism-in-europe/

    This is my point, these niggas argue the same topics year after year seemingly oblivious to real world, where cuckservative is just an early 2000s islamophobic lib.

    How nice of you to not only rape their kids, but teach them how to as well, Mr Baroque Spaniard.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @AP
    @sher singh

    It appears that the former Portuguese-ruled parts of India, with substantial Christian (largely Catholic) minorities, are the most highly developed and richest in the country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

    This suggests that they were better overlords than the Muslims and the British.

    Replies: @German_reader, @sher singh

  84. Speaking of Argentina’s Whiteness:

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon

    What would it have looked like with CBDC and with crypto?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Yellowface Anon

    Argentina's fall from grace is rather straightforward: They had a tiny population (comparatively speaking) living in a gigantic country. Argentina is also blessed with fantastic possibilities for agricultural production.

    They never had any serious industries. They got rich by exporting tons of agricultural stuff. A modern comparison would be Saudi Arabia in the 1970s. A big country with a (then) tiny population but huge amounts of oil. Before WWII, agriculture basically acted as oil for Argentinians.

    Around the mid-1930s, mechanisation really started to pick up. After the war, it boomed, in no small part because America became hugely mechanised, together with rapidly increasing productivity of midwestern farmers. This kept a lid food prices on a secular basis. Argentina, having no other industry to stand on, failed to find its footing ever since.

  85. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    And yet, such an aversion to teaching them Spanish
     
    They did not want to obliterate native culture as such, but to make it civilised and European. So the Indians retained their own language while leaving behind savage customs and religion and building Baroque churches, composing Baroque music using European instruments that they made , etc.

    I also suspect that Spanish frontier culture of those times was rather rough and full of sin, so a linguistic barrier would shield the Natives from that.

    New iOS update makes it difficult to cut and paste your original comment here. Addressing your comment about population density: on the chart you posted one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.

    Canadian Metis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis

    Russian-Native creoles in Alaska (where many Natives are Orthodox Christians):

    https://depts.washington.edu/cspn/creole-policy-and-practice-in-russian-america-iakov-egorovich-netsvetov/

    :::::::;;;:

    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean

    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

    Right, if what you got out of that was ‘A Trumpian could probably agree with them’, I think I will just leave you to enjoy the hammer-and-sickle crucifixes and Pachamama.

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @AP
    @Hyperborean

    To summarise: you were completely wrong in your claims about Jesuits in South America, and your attempt to deflect from the reality of the Protestant nature of wokism through whataboutism involving liberation theology was flawed. Trumpists and other nationalist populists wouldn’t subvert a hammer and sickle by turning it into a cross but they do condemn predatory elites and support local communities versus neoliberalism.

    Replies: @A123

  86. @Yellowface Anon
    Speaking of Argentina's Whiteness:

    https://voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/campos%20fig1%2016%20dec.png

    Replies: @songbird, @Thulean Friend

    What would it have looked like with CBDC and with crypto?

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina's per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries' levels.

    I think the Argentinean economy is already heavily dollarized, but it's still super sluggish because of decades of sovereign debt & hyperinflation. So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same. Except it's much harder or maybe outright impossible to exchange digital pesos for cryptos, than fiat pesos for Yankee-imperialist-standard dollars.

    Replies: @songbird

  87. @songbird
    @AP


    one can clearly see many more Mestizos and Indians in sparsely-populated Argentina than in non-Mexican North America. Similarly, Russian Alaska (Orthodox) and French Canada (Catholic) involved much less systematic killing of Natives and therefore produced more mixed race individuals than did the Calvinists.
     
    Look at the annual temperature range of Buenos Aires, compare to New England. The Inca Empire included parts of Argentine. They had the potato, which was the most impressive New World crop.

    Again, Canada and Alaska are in a different climatic zone, harsher and more remote. Difficult to penetrate, which led to more mixing.

    Replies: @AP

    Russians and French both produced mixed European-Native Creole classes in Alaska and Canada; Anglos have not.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    Alaska was so remote to Russia that the Russians living in Alaska left, when the US bought it, leaving their mestizo descendants there, alone.

    Average Quebecois has like 1-2% admixture, many less. (You can actually find a lot of Anglo Americans like that). A lot of their apparent brownness is just the not uncommon swarthiness of the French.

    Overall less admixture than the Protestant Boers. They have a really large mestizo pop called the Cape Coloureds. Over five million. The predominant population group of the Western Cape.

    Replies: @AP

  88. @Hyperborean
    @AP


    The Pope’s platitudes were not necessarily pro-Communist. A Trumpian could probably agree with them.

    :::::::::

    Wokism is both a uniquely Protestant heresy and a rejection of Christianity. As such, it arose in the Protestant world with specific Protestant features but aggressively seeks converts among Catholics (just as we see unwokened Protestants and Mormons doing missionary work in Catholic places like Brazil or in Orthodox Russia).

     

    Right, if what you got out of that was 'A Trumpian could probably agree with them', I think I will just leave you to enjoy the hammer-and-sickle crucifixes and Pachamama.

    Replies: @AP

    To summarise: you were completely wrong in your claims about Jesuits in South America, and your attempt to deflect from the reality of the Protestant nature of wokism through whataboutism involving liberation theology was flawed. Trumpists and other nationalist populists wouldn’t subvert a hammer and sickle by turning it into a cross but they do condemn predatory elites and support local communities versus neoliberalism.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AP

    There is an internal inconsistency with your position too.

    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokeness, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity. Hint: How Woke is Pope Francis? It is pretty clear that SJW Wokeness is unique to the Catholic hierarchy, even though it is opposed Catholic congregations.
    ____

    You can attempt to argue that Protestantism in Europe and America are fundamentally different. However, all of your positions related to U.S. Christianity are weak or failed.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AP

  89. @AP
    @Thulean Friend


    I think Poland is following the same path as Ireland. 30 years ago many spoke of Irish religious tendencies in similar vein, then they rapidly secularised
     
    Likely, often history repeats itself but sometimes it rhymes, and other times it does something surprising (World War II ended in a radically different way from the first war).

    The West is somewhat discredited now, in comparison to how it was when it became Woke. Poles like Scandinavians (woke) but dislike woke Germans. They also admire Italians, who are the least woke of the Western European peoples. And of trends trends seem to be reversing in France. So while it seems clear that Poland is shifting to the left, it is not yet clear how far it will go.

    As I noted in previous comments, notice the huge gap between Iberia and Greece+Italy. What accounts for this? Anyone hazards a guess?
     
    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why. In Italy the most popular party among those under 30 is the neo-fascist one Brothers of Italy. They and their allies are leading in the general election poll:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/far-right-parties-lead-italian-polls/

    Replies: @Mikel

    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why.

    Well, there’s always multiple factors at play but the most important part of the explanation to this mystery is not very difficult to unravel. Just like 60 years of communism inoculated some Europeans against leftist fantasies, 40 years of clerical-nationalism inoculated others against right-wing extremism and to a large extent against religion itself.

    At the end of Franco’s dictatorship and return to democracy being right-wing was very uncool, especially among younger people. In Italy, by contrast, being neo-fascist was transgressive and thus attractive for the young.

    What is surprising is how long these tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans may well never catch-up in wokeness to Westerners. In fact, that is what I perceive with my Polish son and his friends, all in their twenties. They are quite tolerant in sexual matters, including towards the LGB stuff, but otherwise they are very right-wing, particularly in racial and immigration matters. Religion is at best performative, I don’t know that any of them is an observant Catholic.

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon, AP, Coconuts
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    Franco’s dictatorship
     
    I was just going to write this to AP.

    20th century Spain had for many years under a dictatorship, which had cynically exploited a rhetoric of "religion, conservatism" (while in some times of "moralist" Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes).

    After a pigeon in a Skinner box has been brutally electrocuted enough times, it will probably not "graduate" Skinner box, with positive associations to anything (even if only meaningless sounds) that had correlated to these electrocutions it had experienced in the Skinner box.


    tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans
     
    But in Russia and many postsoviet countries, there is not a "negative association" against previous politics, like in Spain after Franco. The worst electrocutions have been after the previous politics, rather than during them.

    That's the sense it was better before in Soviet times. It's from the 1970s, has been if not always becoming worse life, the national trajectories have been below most anyone's expectations for how life would be. Postsoviet realities, are a feeling of being on the trashcan of history.

    Whereas in Spain it was from the post-Franco, to 2008, a situation of improvement of living standards, access to EU, infrastructure investment, increasing international prestige. Spain's GDP was higher than the Russian Federation from 1990-2008, despite around multiple of 3,3 less people. Even just from the lines on the graph, you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.

    Replies: @Mikel

    , @Agathoklis
    @Mikel

    I have also attributed the long Franco dictatorship as the cause of Spain's mad rush to hyper-liberalism compared to Italy. But how does that explain Greece? Greece also had long periods of so-called conservative 'reactionary' rule, even a dictatorship for seven years, but it remains more socially conservative than Spain. So the following schema: conservative, reactionary leads to hyper-liberalism
    and liberalism leads to conservative does not really hold.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Triteleia Laxa

  90. @sudden death
    @Aedib

    It is kinda self correcting problem on longer term though, e.g. both France and Finland are opening new plants next year which will be profitable now even after long delays and overbudgeting, also are planing building new (FR 6, FI 1), so overall just these 9 new modern reactors will fully compensate closed 8 German ones on EU scale.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Aedib

    1- A post-oil era is a myth. It is very doubtful that an alternative as versatile and practicable
    as oil,could totally replace oil in the next 100 years.
    2- There could never be a peak oil demand either throughout the 21st century and probably
    far beyond. How could the world feed a growing population projected to rise from 7.9
    billion today to 9.7 billion by 2050 and a global economy projected to grow in size from
    \$91 trillion in 2021 to \$245 trillion also by 2050 without oil?
    3- A total global energy transition is an illusion. Even a partial one will never succeed without
    huge contributions from natural gas and nuclear energy.
    4- The notion of net-zero emissions is a myth. It will never be achieved in 2050 or 2100 or
    ever.
    5- Oil and gas and nuclear will continue to be the core business of the global oil industry well into the
    future.

    • Agree: Barbarossa
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Aedib

    Peak Oil or Peak Energy in the 21th century is possible... by massive depopulation and/or massive destruction of living standards. Have WWIII and then prevent the rebuilding from the irradiated rubble, and we'll be there.

  91. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.
     
    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn't de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ruinas-saomiguel13.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/19510452_303.jpg

    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    "These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay's Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans' shops, and schools of music and painting."

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeYBdGN7OQ

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-"gods" to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    "A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer."

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.


    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.
     
    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Hyperborean, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    Is this San Ignacio (Misiones in Argentina)? There is a sizable Ukrainian collectivity in this tiny northern Argentinean province.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Aedib

    One is a mission is right across the border in Brazil:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_S%C3%A3o_Miguel_das_Miss%C3%B5es

    The evil Portuguese slave-raiders whom the Jesuits protected were called Banderites (or something close to it).

    Another picture was from Argentina.

    Replies: @Aedib

  92. @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon

    What would it have looked like with CBDC and with crypto?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina’s per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries’ levels.

    I think the Argentinean economy is already heavily dollarized, but it’s still super sluggish because of decades of sovereign debt & hyperinflation. So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same. Except it’s much harder or maybe outright impossible to exchange digital pesos for cryptos, than fiat pesos for Yankee-imperialist-standard dollars.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon


    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina’s per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries’ levels.
     
    That's what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.

    So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same.
     
    Not so sure about this.

    Don't know a lot about CBDCs, but I presume greater convertibility, so easier to change for competing currencies, with less inflation. Crypto also would have been a hedge against inflation.

    If nothing else, I suspect that there would at least be a much bigger black market economy, with many people working secretly for other currencies. Since crypto is easier to obtain than physical dollars. Not a cure all, but the standard of living would probably be higher.

    I think the performance of some Latin American countries could be much increased with the right technology to fight corruption. Probably, also true of Africa, to a degree, though with a much harsher regime needed there. (Probably social credits, segregation, and crowd AI.)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  93. @AP
    @Hyperborean

    To summarise: you were completely wrong in your claims about Jesuits in South America, and your attempt to deflect from the reality of the Protestant nature of wokism through whataboutism involving liberation theology was flawed. Trumpists and other nationalist populists wouldn’t subvert a hammer and sickle by turning it into a cross but they do condemn predatory elites and support local communities versus neoliberalism.

    Replies: @A123

    There is an internal inconsistency with your position too.

    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokeness, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity. Hint: How Woke is Pope Francis? It is pretty clear that SJW Wokeness is unique to the Catholic hierarchy, even though it is opposed Catholic congregations.
    ____

    You can attempt to argue that Protestantism in Europe and America are fundamentally different. However, all of your positions related to U.S. Christianity are weak or failed.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AP
    @A123


    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.
     
    As I posted, wokism stems from Protestantism and shares many key features with it, described by the Protestant minister whose words I provided.

    This does not mean that practicing Protestants would necessarily support Wokism, just as Catholics would not necessarily support some heretic pseudo-Catholic. There is nothing contradictory about conservative Protestants being anti-woke, and wokeness being a twisted and heretical offshoot of Protestantism.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokenessw, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity
     
    That would be mainline Protestantism with its practicing gay bishops and such. Congregational churches frequently fly BLM and trans flags, have lesbian ministers, etc.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

  94. @Aedib
    @sudden death


    1- A post-oil era is a myth. It is very doubtful that an alternative as versatile and practicable
    as oil,could totally replace oil in the next 100 years.
    2- There could never be a peak oil demand either throughout the 21st century and probably
    far beyond. How could the world feed a growing population projected to rise from 7.9
    billion today to 9.7 billion by 2050 and a global economy projected to grow in size from
    $91 trillion in 2021 to $245 trillion also by 2050 without oil?
    3- A total global energy transition is an illusion. Even a partial one will never succeed without
    huge contributions from natural gas and nuclear energy.
    4- The notion of net-zero emissions is a myth. It will never be achieved in 2050 or 2100 or
    ever.
    5- Oil and gas and nuclear will continue to be the core business of the global oil industry well into the
    future.
     

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Peak Oil or Peak Energy in the 21th century is possible… by massive depopulation and/or massive destruction of living standards. Have WWIII and then prevent the rebuilding from the irradiated rubble, and we’ll be there.

    • Agree: Aedib
  95. @sher singh
    @Thulean Friend

    late 90s* https://www.unz.com/akarlin/race-realism-in-europe/

    This is my point, these niggas argue the same topics year after year seemingly oblivious to real world, where cuckservative is just an early 2000s islamophobic lib.

    https://twitter.com/terrorhousemag/status/1155158534620950528?s=20

    How nice of you to not only rape their kids, but teach them how to as well, Mr Baroque Spaniard.


    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AP

    It appears that the former Portuguese-ruled parts of India, with substantial Christian (largely Catholic) minorities, are the most highly developed and richest in the country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

    This suggests that they were better overlords than the Muslims and the British.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP

    The Portuguese basically just ruled Goa and some tiny districts until the 20th century (whereas Kerala, India's 2nd richest state after Goa - also with below replacement fertility iirc - was part of British India...and iirc has strong Communist influence in its politics). All of southern India is more advanced than the BIMARU states in the north, it's pretty silly to claim this difference is mainly due to Catholicism.

    Replies: @AP

    , @sher singh
    @AP

    They also led a centuries long inquisition using black slaves to force feed Hindus beef||
    Your daughter or grand-daughter will be married to an Indian, so why am I even arguing this with you? :shrug:

    This is the equivalent of Sovoks who argue which specific whatever of the USSR was better.
    The fact you have to hold up 1/3rd of kids being bastards in Poland as a gold trophy, says it all.

    Considering the example of Jesus, shouldn't 100% out of wedlock birth be the Christian standard?
    Given this reality, the negrophilia of all christian peoples makes sense||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  96. @Aedib
    @AP

    Is this San Ignacio (Misiones in Argentina)? There is a sizable Ukrainian collectivity in this tiny northern Argentinean province.

    Replies: @AP

    One is a mission is right across the border in Brazil:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_S%C3%A3o_Miguel_das_Miss%C3%B5es

    The evil Portuguese slave-raiders whom the Jesuits protected were called Banderites (or something close to it).

    Another picture was from Argentina.

    • Thanks: Aedib
    • Replies: @Aedib
    @AP

    Both places are quite similar. There Jesuits instructed Guaranis to defend themselves from bandeirantes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ignacio,_Argentina

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ignacio_(Misiones)

  97. @AP
    @songbird

    Russians and French both produced mixed European-Native Creole classes in Alaska and Canada; Anglos have not.

    Replies: @songbird

    Alaska was so remote to Russia that the Russians living in Alaska left, when the US bought it, leaving their mestizo descendants there, alone.

    Average Quebecois has like 1-2% admixture, many less. (You can actually find a lot of Anglo Americans like that). A lot of their apparent brownness is just the not uncommon swarthiness of the French.

    Overall less admixture than the Protestant Boers. They have a really large mestizo pop called the Cape Coloureds. Over five million. The predominant population group of the Western Cape.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird

    As the link I provided shows, the Russians were supporting these Creoles even during their rule.

    The Quebecois studies are of French people (about 4.7 million of them in Canada), and show about 1% Native descent within this population. These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    So among French-Canadians, 89% are Europeans (who themselves have 1% or so Native ancestry) and 11% are Mestizo. This is similar demographics to places colonised by the Spaniards that had sparsely populated native populations.

    The Boers and Cape Town Coloreds are a valid counter-example. It seems that the Dutch Calvinists in Africa behaved a lot differently than the English ones in the New World.

    Replies: @songbird

  98. @AP
    @Aedib

    One is a mission is right across the border in Brazil:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_S%C3%A3o_Miguel_das_Miss%C3%B5es

    The evil Portuguese slave-raiders whom the Jesuits protected were called Banderites (or something close to it).

    Another picture was from Argentina.

    Replies: @Aedib

    Both places are quite similar. There Jesuits instructed Guaranis to defend themselves from bandeirantes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ignacio,_Argentina

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ignacio_(Misiones)

  99. @A123
    @AP

    There is an internal inconsistency with your position too.

    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokeness, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity. Hint: How Woke is Pope Francis? It is pretty clear that SJW Wokeness is unique to the Catholic hierarchy, even though it is opposed Catholic congregations.
    ____

    You can attempt to argue that Protestantism in Europe and America are fundamentally different. However, all of your positions related to U.S. Christianity are weak or failed.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AP

    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.

    As I posted, wokism stems from Protestantism and shares many key features with it, described by the Protestant minister whose words I provided.

    This does not mean that practicing Protestants would necessarily support Wokism, just as Catholics would not necessarily support some heretic pseudo-Catholic. There is nothing contradictory about conservative Protestants being anti-woke, and wokeness being a twisted and heretical offshoot of Protestantism.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokenessw, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity

    That would be mainline Protestantism with its practicing gay bishops and such. Congregational churches frequently fly BLM and trans flags, have lesbian ministers, etc.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AP

    Fake Stream News points cameras at few churches in New York & California. ​Such behavior is much rarer than the MSNBC depicts. In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches. America Catholicism is very Woke and getting Woker, with a handful of exceptions.

    You have not come up with any credible ecumenical reason why Protestantism leads to deviancy. Again, 100% the reverse is true. Catholic deviancy, such as paid Indulgences for rich Catholics, is the source of Protestant resistance. Hierarchical Catholic leadership had a running head start at the money pot of Woke.
    ___

    Historically the two big drivers against Wokeness are USSR oppression and lack of available funds. Impoverished believers, especially those trapped behind the Iron Curtain, are the least woke. The correlation to Catholicism is incidental.

    Or, would you like to state that poverty is a direct consequence of Catholicism?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Max Demian
    @AP


    practicing gay bishops
     
    They still need to practice?

    Might not brazenly buggering be more apt?[1]

    Now, to segue from this tongue-in-cheek* interlude to offer an entirely earnest contribution that is related, if only tangentially, to the topic addressed by the former.

    (*But not-- decidedly, emphatically, unequivocally not-- tongue-in {other anatomical parts}...)

    The categorical, absolute, doctrinaire assertions that homoeroticism is without exception both innate as well as immutable; that it is equivalent to normative heterosexuality (much less to sacred matrimony[2]); and the conflation (both witting as well as unwitting) of involuntary feelings with voluntary behaviors (as well as the conflation of specific, objectively unwholesome acts with homoeroticism, or even homoerotic activity, per se[3]). These are all manifestly false and objectively harmful.

    @Songbird:


    ...beach bods...pretty girls...Long Beach...
     
    Anyone else reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line from the Jacuzzi scene in the 1986 blockbuster Back to School,
    "Maybe you girls can help me straighten out my Longfellow."?

    To again segue from the jocular and raunchy to the earnest and chaste, I will offer another contention. This one, though, sure to be less popular, accepted or even palatable to the present audience than the previous.

    The Bikini vs. the Burka.

    This should be a false dichotomy. Between these opposite extremes, lies a vast expanse of moderation. If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    Dfordoom would almost certainly disagree. Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the redoubtable DFD? His last last posted comment dates to August and his blog has disappeared.

    Numbered notes, for some elaboration and elucidation, below break.
    [1] It might incidentally be noted here that to infer from either this or any of my past comments evidence of categorical, unqualified condemnation of homoeroticism, per se on my part would be unfounded. A review of the relevant record would reveal that my criticism, and condemnations and any other attacks I have made within the area-in-question have been directed, rather clearly, emphatically, consistently and often painstakingly, against specific acts, behaviors, positions, views, attitudes, ideologies and movements. The paragraph that immediately follows the launching point for this note should serve as a prime illustration of the very point that the latter attempts to make.

    [2] Upon seeing a word such as sacred in any context such as this, it would seem that most people assume the writer or speaker is arguing from a specifically religious perspective. While such an assumption would generally have at least a high likelihood of being accurate, it need not be. Note that out of a total of seven definitions given for sacred in the first entry for the word at Dictionary [dot] com, a full four (the final four) have no inherent religious or other supernatural meaning or connotations.

    [3] An example of a homoerotic ideal that is at least considerably less unwholesome than the prevailing one, can be found at man2manalliance [dot] org. (GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Barbarossa

  100. @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina's per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries' levels.

    I think the Argentinean economy is already heavily dollarized, but it's still super sluggish because of decades of sovereign debt & hyperinflation. So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same. Except it's much harder or maybe outright impossible to exchange digital pesos for cryptos, than fiat pesos for Yankee-imperialist-standard dollars.

    Replies: @songbird

    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina’s per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries’ levels.

    That’s what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.

    So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same.

    Not so sure about this.

    Don’t know a lot about CBDCs, but I presume greater convertibility, so easier to change for competing currencies, with less inflation. Crypto also would have been a hedge against inflation.

    If nothing else, I suspect that there would at least be a much bigger black market economy, with many people working secretly for other currencies. Since crypto is easier to obtain than physical dollars. Not a cure all, but the standard of living would probably be higher.

    I think the performance of some Latin American countries could be much increased with the right technology to fight corruption. Probably, also true of Africa, to a degree, though with a much harsher regime needed there. (Probably social credits, segregation, and crowd AI.)

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird


    That’s what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.
     
    I'm not sure if you graph-reading skills are working alright, or you're getting the context. Argentina got rich by exporting grain and meat to Europe, something like a second Canada. Once the game was up during the Great Depression they switched to import substitution and stagnated. A few debt crises and they were done (and this is the economic side of the story).

    HBD-wise, the period with the greatest growth coincides with the greatest level of immigration (albeit with Sicilians and Spaniards).

    Replies: @songbird

  101. @AP
    @A123


    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.
     
    As I posted, wokism stems from Protestantism and shares many key features with it, described by the Protestant minister whose words I provided.

    This does not mean that practicing Protestants would necessarily support Wokism, just as Catholics would not necessarily support some heretic pseudo-Catholic. There is nothing contradictory about conservative Protestants being anti-woke, and wokeness being a twisted and heretical offshoot of Protestantism.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokenessw, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity
     
    That would be mainline Protestantism with its practicing gay bishops and such. Congregational churches frequently fly BLM and trans flags, have lesbian ministers, etc.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

    Fake Stream News points cameras at few churches in New York & California. ​Such behavior is much rarer than the MSNBC depicts. In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches. America Catholicism is very Woke and getting Woker, with a handful of exceptions.

    You have not come up with any credible ecumenical reason why Protestantism leads to deviancy. Again, 100% the reverse is true. Catholic deviancy, such as paid Indulgences for rich Catholics, is the source of Protestant resistance. Hierarchical Catholic leadership had a running head start at the money pot of Woke.
    ___

    Historically the two big drivers against Wokeness are USSR oppression and lack of available funds. Impoverished believers, especially those trapped behind the Iron Curtain, are the least woke. The correlation to Catholicism is incidental.

    Or, would you like to state that poverty is a direct consequence of Catholicism?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123


    In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches.
     
    Catholic priest + gay are almost entirely a sub-set set relation. Gotta be > 80% in western civilized countries.

    Replies: @A123

  102. @songbird
    @AP

    Alaska was so remote to Russia that the Russians living in Alaska left, when the US bought it, leaving their mestizo descendants there, alone.

    Average Quebecois has like 1-2% admixture, many less. (You can actually find a lot of Anglo Americans like that). A lot of their apparent brownness is just the not uncommon swarthiness of the French.

    Overall less admixture than the Protestant Boers. They have a really large mestizo pop called the Cape Coloureds. Over five million. The predominant population group of the Western Cape.

    Replies: @AP

    As the link I provided shows, the Russians were supporting these Creoles even during their rule.

    The Quebecois studies are of French people (about 4.7 million of them in Canada), and show about 1% Native descent within this population. These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    So among French-Canadians, 89% are Europeans (who themselves have 1% or so Native ancestry) and 11% are Mestizo. This is similar demographics to places colonised by the Spaniards that had sparsely populated native populations.

    The Boers and Cape Town Coloreds are a valid counter-example. It seems that the Dutch Calvinists in Africa behaved a lot differently than the English ones in the New World.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).
     
    In America, these people call themselves Indians. There are multiples more of them, than in Canada, even though Canada is larger. (The rule is to ignore climate, right?) And that isn't counting our Mestizos, which would increase the disparity to a much greater level.

    Replies: @AP

  103. @AP
    @sher singh

    It appears that the former Portuguese-ruled parts of India, with substantial Christian (largely Catholic) minorities, are the most highly developed and richest in the country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

    This suggests that they were better overlords than the Muslims and the British.

    Replies: @German_reader, @sher singh

    The Portuguese basically just ruled Goa and some tiny districts until the 20th century (whereas Kerala, India’s 2nd richest state after Goa – also with below replacement fertility iirc – was part of British India…and iirc has strong Communist influence in its politics). All of southern India is more advanced than the BIMARU states in the north, it’s pretty silly to claim this difference is mainly due to Catholicism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader

    They also ruled Kerala, albeit much more briefly than they did Goa. They controlled Kerala from about 1500 to 1660.

    Replies: @German_reader

  104. sher singh says:
    @AP
    @sher singh

    It appears that the former Portuguese-ruled parts of India, with substantial Christian (largely Catholic) minorities, are the most highly developed and richest in the country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

    This suggests that they were better overlords than the Muslims and the British.

    Replies: @German_reader, @sher singh

    They also led a centuries long inquisition using black slaves to force feed Hindus beef||
    Your daughter or grand-daughter will be married to an Indian, so why am I even arguing this with you? :shrug:

    This is the equivalent of Sovoks who argue which specific whatever of the USSR was better.
    The fact you have to hold up 1/3rd of kids being bastards in Poland as a gold trophy, says it all.

    Considering the example of Jesus, shouldn’t 100% out of wedlock birth be the Christian standard?
    Given this reality, the negrophilia of all christian peoples makes sense||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  105. @A123
    @AP

    Fake Stream News points cameras at few churches in New York & California. ​Such behavior is much rarer than the MSNBC depicts. In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches. America Catholicism is very Woke and getting Woker, with a handful of exceptions.

    You have not come up with any credible ecumenical reason why Protestantism leads to deviancy. Again, 100% the reverse is true. Catholic deviancy, such as paid Indulgences for rich Catholics, is the source of Protestant resistance. Hierarchical Catholic leadership had a running head start at the money pot of Woke.
    ___

    Historically the two big drivers against Wokeness are USSR oppression and lack of available funds. Impoverished believers, especially those trapped behind the Iron Curtain, are the least woke. The correlation to Catholicism is incidental.

    Or, would you like to state that poverty is a direct consequence of Catholicism?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches.

    Catholic priest + gay are almost entirely a sub-set set relation. Gotta be > 80% in western civilized countries.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    I do not know about 80%.

    However, the tie between Catholicism and Wokeness is undeniable. The SJW Republic of Ireland just made news: (1)


    The Irish government, currently ruled by a coalition of liberal parties, has approved of a scheme that will “regularize” thousands of illegal immigrants, granting them access to the country’s labor market and providing them a pathway to citizenship.

    The scheme, set to begin in January, will give an estimated 17,000 illegal immigrants who have spent at least four years in Ireland the ability to apply for so-called “regularization.” Successful applicants — along with their undocumented family members — will be given official residency status inside the country, access to the Irish labor market, and a pathway to citizenship, Irish broadcaster RTE reports.
    ...
    Ireland has no plans to cap the amount of migrants eligible for amnesty, and the number could be substantially higher than the 17,000 estimated in the country
     
    So much for Ireland being a bulwark against Wokeness.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/article/irelands-liberal-government-wants-to-give-citizenship-to-17000-illegal-immigrants/
  106. @German_reader
    @AP

    The Portuguese basically just ruled Goa and some tiny districts until the 20th century (whereas Kerala, India's 2nd richest state after Goa - also with below replacement fertility iirc - was part of British India...and iirc has strong Communist influence in its politics). All of southern India is more advanced than the BIMARU states in the north, it's pretty silly to claim this difference is mainly due to Catholicism.

    Replies: @AP

    They also ruled Kerala, albeit much more briefly than they did Goa. They controlled Kerala from about 1500 to 1660.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP

    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time. imo you're suffering from a rather severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors.
    I also don't know if the Portuguese were morally any better as colonialists compared to other powers. When they were dominant in Asian waters in the 16th century, they basically ran a maritime protection racket. Not really any less predatory than the later exploits of the British (and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean, and more so than on the North American mainland).

    Replies: @iffen, @AP

  107. German_reader says:
    @AP
    @German_reader

    They also ruled Kerala, albeit much more briefly than they did Goa. They controlled Kerala from about 1500 to 1660.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time. imo you’re suffering from a rather severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors.
    I also don’t know if the Portuguese were morally any better as colonialists compared to other powers. When they were dominant in Asian waters in the 16th century, they basically ran a maritime protection racket. Not really any less predatory than the later exploits of the British (and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean, and more so than on the North American mainland).

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean

    Slaves were so cheap that it was literally more economic to buy replacements than provide for the current ones. They worked them to death in 4-5-6 years. If they got 8-9 years out of them it was crème de la crème profit.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @AP
    @German_reader


    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time.
     
    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala. It is probably meaningful that the two parts of India with a history of having been ruled by Portugal are also the most developed and richest. The Indian state of Karnataka, on the same Malabar Coast as these states but without a history of having been ruled by Portugal, is a lot poorer and less developed than the former Portuguese territories.

    The Portuguese also ruled much of Sri Lanka for over 100 years, and the Catholicism that they brought is the largest Christian faith in Sri Lanka (there are 1.3 million Catholics and 300,000 Protestants in Sri Lanka). Sri Lanka is richer and more developed than India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nepal.

    severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors
     
    It seems that the wealth and development of Portuguese ruled territory in South Asia are not coincidental. Their rule seems to have been benign and to have had good effect.

    (Macau is richer per capita than Hong Kong and Singapore but I suspect this is due to the casinos).

    Replies: @German_reader, @RSDB

  108. @AP
    @songbird

    As the link I provided shows, the Russians were supporting these Creoles even during their rule.

    The Quebecois studies are of French people (about 4.7 million of them in Canada), and show about 1% Native descent within this population. These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    So among French-Canadians, 89% are Europeans (who themselves have 1% or so Native ancestry) and 11% are Mestizo. This is similar demographics to places colonised by the Spaniards that had sparsely populated native populations.

    The Boers and Cape Town Coloreds are a valid counter-example. It seems that the Dutch Calvinists in Africa behaved a lot differently than the English ones in the New World.

    Replies: @songbird

    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    In America, these people call themselves Indians. There are multiples more of them, than in Canada, even though Canada is larger. (The rule is to ignore climate, right?) And that isn’t counting our Mestizos, which would increase the disparity to a much greater level.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird


    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    In America, these people call themselves Indians.
     
    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

    There are nearly 90,000 Indians in Quebec (this does not include Inuit in the North and the Métis). How many in the land of the Puritans in New England? Only 8,600 in Maine, 2,132 in Vermont, 2,036 in New Hampshire, 14,764 in Massachusetts, 9,900 in Connecticut. The Puritan Calvinists just wiped them out, unlike the French Catholics. Upstate New York has only 36,200 Natives.

    Replies: @songbird, @songbird

  109. Maybe, the antinuclear movement in Germany is really just 4D chess to get others to work out the kinks, so Germans will get the best, latest designs for a bargain price, installed ahead of schedule.

    Stick everyone with fission, while getting fusion.

    For the nonce, I am not sure that it is a bad idea to increase energy prices to the point where the local blacks and Arabs will either need to stop taking hot showers or have their pipes freeze, and eventually start getting frostbite and posting rather less compelling pictures of their circumstances on social media.

  110. This year Gazprom exploited an existing legal loophole when there were no mandatory minimal gas reserve requirements for the storage owners in EU, but it will be closed soon:

    In order to boost the EU resilience, the Commission wants to propose a more strategic approach to gas storage, including measures to ensure a high filling level at the beginning of the heating season.

    When assessing risk at a regional level, member states will have to include an analysis of their gas storage levels and of potential risks related to security of supply, also from when storage is owned by foreign companies. If risks are identified, they will have to introduce counter-measures such as minimum storage obligations, tendering or auctions.

    The proposal also provides for voluntary joint procurement of strategic gas stock by transmission system operators. Such reserves could then be released in case of emergency.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-13/europe-plans-end-date-to-long-term-gas-deals-favored-by-russia?srnd=premium-europe

  111. And now the “Stop Woke Act”:

    https://floridapolitics.com/archives/480481-ron-desantis-crt-stop-woke/

    After Trump’s disappointing performance it’s difficult to get enthusiastic but DeSantis is shaping up as a great contender for the ’24 presidency (though I would rather vote for Tucker if given the choice).

    • Replies: @A123
    @Mikel

    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump. He did exceedingly well with a non MAGA Senate impeding his efforts.

    You should feel more enthusiasm after the midterms. The negligence of Not-The-President Biden and his puppetmasters points to an impending blowout.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mikel

  112. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @A123


    In the U.S. is much easier to find a gay Catholic church versus vs very rare gay Protestant churches.
     
    Catholic priest + gay are almost entirely a sub-set set relation. Gotta be > 80% in western civilized countries.

    Replies: @A123

    I do not know about 80%.

    However, the tie between Catholicism and Wokeness is undeniable. The SJW Republic of Ireland just made news: (1)

    The Irish government, currently ruled by a coalition of liberal parties, has approved of a scheme that will “regularize” thousands of illegal immigrants, granting them access to the country’s labor market and providing them a pathway to citizenship.

    The scheme, set to begin in January, will give an estimated 17,000 illegal immigrants who have spent at least four years in Ireland the ability to apply for so-called “regularization.” Successful applicants — along with their undocumented family members — will be given official residency status inside the country, access to the Irish labor market, and a pathway to citizenship, Irish broadcaster RTE reports.

    Ireland has no plans to cap the amount of migrants eligible for amnesty, and the number could be substantially higher than the 17,000 estimated in the country

    So much for Ireland being a bulwark against Wokeness.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://rmx.news/article/irelands-liberal-government-wants-to-give-citizenship-to-17000-illegal-immigrants/

  113. @Mikel
    And now the "Stop Woke Act":

    https://floridapolitics.com/archives/480481-ron-desantis-crt-stop-woke/

    After Trump's disappointing performance it's difficult to get enthusiastic but DeSantis is shaping up as a great contender for the '24 presidency (though I would rather vote for Tucker if given the choice).

    Replies: @A123

    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump. He did exceedingly well with a non MAGA Senate impeding his efforts.

    You should feel more enthusiasm after the midterms. The negligence of Not-The-President Biden and his puppetmasters points to an impending blowout.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @A123


    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump.
     
    Definitely both.

    I very much doubted he would deport 11 million illegals but I never thought he would actually increase legal immigration*, or that he would make relations with Russia worse, or that he wouldn't be able to end any single war.

    This article made me spill my coffee yesterday. You may not find it so funny but I recommend you read it:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-rights-sun-tzuicide/

    * Like Derbyshire, I am an anti-immigrationinst immigrant. What's best for your adopted country is not necessarily what's best for you personally.

    Replies: @A123, @A123, @A123

  114. @A123
    @Yellowface Anon

    The fact the Iffen is a #NeverTrump acolyte is quite obvious and irrefutable.

    • He repeatedly lies about Trump, blaming him for things beyond his control.
    • He keeps trying to sabotage high-IQ communications methods with broad gender appeal. Most notably #LetsGoBrandon as a technique.

    What is puzzling -- As an obvious #Bidenista, why does Iffen attempt to deny his support for the current occupied White House?
    ____

    I never claimed to be 100% agreement with Trump about everything. I would have made some different choices.

    The critical part is recognizing that MAGA never had the House or Senate during Trump's 1st Term. That greatly limited what he was able to do. People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @iffen

    People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    • Agree: sher singh
    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @A123
    @iffen

    ROTFLMAO

    Clearly you are not talking about me. I spread the TRUTH that you are desperate to conceal, not hate. Let me offer you some constructive advice on how to exit your status as a yahoo.

    *STOP LYING*

    It is the easy one step plan to self improvement. Alas, little can be done about your shockingly limited, Low-IQ mental capability.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    , @Max Demian
    @iffen


    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.
     
    A123's reflexively, categorically pro-(Zionist State that calls itself) Israel and anti-Muslim views do indeed appear caricature-like. And while far from certain that he is, in fact, a shill, I am not ready to entirely exclude such a possibility from the realm of probability.

    But does this comment of yours not contradict one that you had posted to this blog not long ago? Did you not, in the latter, state that while you initially and for some time were convinced that A123 was a Zionist shill, you subsequently, after acquiring greater familiarity with the fullness of his posted views-- both here at Unz and also at what you referred-to as "his website"-- concluded that his views were just too bizarre for him to be a mere shill?

    Replies: @A123

  115. @German_reader
    @AP

    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time. imo you're suffering from a rather severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors.
    I also don't know if the Portuguese were morally any better as colonialists compared to other powers. When they were dominant in Asian waters in the 16th century, they basically ran a maritime protection racket. Not really any less predatory than the later exploits of the British (and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean, and more so than on the North American mainland).

    Replies: @iffen, @AP

    and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean

    Slaves were so cheap that it was literally more economic to buy replacements than provide for the current ones. They worked them to death in 4-5-6 years. If they got 8-9 years out of them it was crème de la crème profit.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen

    I think that's true for the sugar plantations in the Caribbean and in Brazil, where they was indeed constant replacement due to the high death rates. iirc conditions for slaves were better on the North American mainland where there were mostly other crops, slaves even had natural population growth there (apart from some exceptions, I think there were sugar plantations in South Carolina, founded by planters who had come from Barbados, and those were similarly brutal as in the Caribbean).

  116. Russia Puts The Blame On Europe As Energy Crisis Worsens

    By Tsvetana Paraskova – Dec 15, 2021, 3:00 PM CST

    The EU is reconsidering its position on extending long-term natural gas contracts.
    Russia has maintained that the contracts are beneficial for Europe and moving away from them would be a mistake.
    Russia even went as far as suggesting that Europe’s current energy crisis is its own fault.

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russia-Puts-The-Blame-On-Europe-As-Energy-Crisis-Worsens.html

  117. German_reader says:
    @iffen
    @German_reader

    and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean

    Slaves were so cheap that it was literally more economic to buy replacements than provide for the current ones. They worked them to death in 4-5-6 years. If they got 8-9 years out of them it was crème de la crème profit.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I think that’s true for the sugar plantations in the Caribbean and in Brazil, where they was indeed constant replacement due to the high death rates. iirc conditions for slaves were better on the North American mainland where there were mostly other crops, slaves even had natural population growth there (apart from some exceptions, I think there were sugar plantations in South Carolina, founded by planters who had come from Barbados, and those were similarly brutal as in the Caribbean).

  118. @iffen
    @A123

    People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

    ROTFLMAO

    Clearly you are not talking about me. I spread the TRUTH that you are desperate to conceal, not hate. Let me offer you some constructive advice on how to exit your status as a yahoo.

    *STOP LYING*

    It is the easy one step plan to self improvement. Alas, little can be done about your shockingly limited, Low-IQ mental capability.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  119. Every time I go to Youtube, I feel like a British officer during the first minute of the Sepoy Rebellion.

    I click on a video with an English title and description. I hear the first sentence or two in a sing-song Indian voice, that makes me feel a bit uneasy, before I am suddenly bushwhacked with an incomprehensible stream of babble so jarring and alien that I can only presume it must be Hindi.

    For all I know, they might be saying “To arms! Now is the moment to takeover the West!”

    • Replies: @A123
    @songbird

    Stick to videos that do not have a spoken language track.

    PEACE 😇

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzfpNXCNZWo

    , @silviosilver
    @songbird


    Every time I go to Youtube, I feel like a British officer during the first minute of the Sepoy Rebellion.
     
    Hahaha, a man after my own heart. God it shits me to tears searching for something on youtube and having to scroll past ten thousand videos with English titles but accompanied by hindi script and some pajeet in the thumbnail. How many times I've wished for a "no hindoos" search option. In fact, now I think about it, of all the Britishers' sins (real and imagined), teaching hindoos English surely ranks among the gravest of crimes against humanity.

    Replies: @songbird

  120. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats.
     
    I get your point about Serbs and Croats, but do Albanians really pretend to be that religious? They're not all even nominally Muslim, there's a non-trivial Christian minority, and many godless. Also you've got things like national hero Skanderbeg (after whom the Waffen-SS division was named) who fought the Ottomans, which to me would at least indicate a not entirely uncomplicated attitude towards the Ottoman era and its religious imprint.
    I've got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it's always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don't even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn't accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Yevardian

    I’ve got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it’s always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don’t even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn’t accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.

    You probably know already, but yes, religion has never really formed a key part of Albanian identity. The most revered aspect in all traditional Albanian society is the Kanun, a compendium of oral law governing blood feuds/pacts, marriage customs, inheritance, land rights, practically every aspect of pre-modern life. The Kanun equally governs behaviour for Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, it makes no distinction for religion.

    I used to think it had gone defunct after the long Hoxha years, but I can tell you from personal acquaitances, that even amongst urban and educated people it’s very much alive. Well, perhaps not so surprising considering the degree of total anarchy Albania fell into until the late 90s, even worse than Armenia. Albania’s entire electricity grid was actually breaking down, with consequences that can be imagined after daylight. Whole families simply fled Tirana to their ancestral villages during this period, it’s actually universally remembered (I don’t remember the phrase in Albanian [incidentally, it sounds very different to Slavic languages of the area, with lots of ‘th’ and ‘the’ sounds, also distinguishing the ‘English r’, a tap, and a trilled r, I think only Armenian also has this], unfortunately) as ‘The Night of Dark Forces’ in Albania, or something along those lines.
    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they’re not the biggest niggers of Europe.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Yevardian


    The Kanun
     
    I saw a documentary about this years ago, about men who had to go into hiding for decades because of blood feuds which had already killed several people on both sides. Really depressing. I'd assumed though it was limited to remote rural areas, bit disturbing that it seems to be more widespread.

    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they’re not the biggest niggers of Europe.
     
    I think both are easily topped by gypsies.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yevardian

    The first ethnographic data I was ever aware of on Albanians was in Elmore Leonard crime novels. About half Detroit and half Florida. The ones in Detroit had Albanians. Elmore Leonard presents them as criminal, violent, stupid, and insane.

    In Doring's MI6 book he has hundreds of pages on Albania. The whole time I was skimming through this dullest fraction of the book I am wondering why would anybody in MI6 care about Albania? It seems about as insignificant in global politics as Afghanistan.

    Albanians are considered better than gypsies, no?

    Linh Dinh has some good Albania articles. I don't think many people do recreational traveling to Albania.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  121. @songbird
    Every time I go to Youtube, I feel like a British officer during the first minute of the Sepoy Rebellion.

    I click on a video with an English title and description. I hear the first sentence or two in a sing-song Indian voice, that makes me feel a bit uneasy, before I am suddenly bushwhacked with an incomprehensible stream of babble so jarring and alien that I can only presume it must be Hindi.

    For all I know, they might be saying "To arms! Now is the moment to takeover the West!"

    Replies: @A123, @silviosilver

    Stick to videos that do not have a spoken language track.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: songbird
  122. @German_reader
    @AP

    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time. imo you're suffering from a rather severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors.
    I also don't know if the Portuguese were morally any better as colonialists compared to other powers. When they were dominant in Asian waters in the 16th century, they basically ran a maritime protection racket. Not really any less predatory than the later exploits of the British (and slavery in the sugar plantations of Brazil was probably just as brutal as in the British Caribbean, and more so than on the North American mainland).

    Replies: @iffen, @AP

    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time.

    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala. It is probably meaningful that the two parts of India with a history of having been ruled by Portugal are also the most developed and richest. The Indian state of Karnataka, on the same Malabar Coast as these states but without a history of having been ruled by Portugal, is a lot poorer and less developed than the former Portuguese territories.

    The Portuguese also ruled much of Sri Lanka for over 100 years, and the Catholicism that they brought is the largest Christian faith in Sri Lanka (there are 1.3 million Catholics and 300,000 Protestants in Sri Lanka). Sri Lanka is richer and more developed than India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nepal.

    severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors

    It seems that the wealth and development of Portuguese ruled territory in South Asia are not coincidental. Their rule seems to have been benign and to have had good effect.

    (Macau is richer per capita than Hong Kong and Singapore but I suspect this is due to the casinos).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP


    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala.
     
    tbh I think neither you nor I know enough about India to really have any idea what is behind the differences between north and south India. I doubt it can be reduced merely to Portuguese rule or Catholicism, there must be many other factors (there are vast differences between the regions after all, linguistically, culturally, in the caste system...arguably the people in north and south India aren't even the same genetically). I'll grant though that Portuguese rule doesn't seem to have had any lasting negative effects, and probably left at least some nice architecture behind.

    Replies: @AP

    , @RSDB
    @AP

    It is a funny thing about Sri Lanka-- as far as I know, the Kandian Sinhalese never did very much persecution of Christians, but there were two groups who did, the Tamil kings of Jaffna, and the Dutch (who tried to suppress Catholicism specifically).

    Today many Tamils are Christian, roughly one in five (possibly a little more now as some converted during the recent war and that figure is from 1981), and, of the only descendants of the Dutch in Sri Lanka, the Dutch Burghers, every single one I have ever met has been Catholic.

  123. @songbird
    @AP


    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).
     
    In America, these people call themselves Indians. There are multiples more of them, than in Canada, even though Canada is larger. (The rule is to ignore climate, right?) And that isn't counting our Mestizos, which would increase the disparity to a much greater level.

    Replies: @AP

    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    In America, these people call themselves Indians.

    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

    There are nearly 90,000 Indians in Quebec (this does not include Inuit in the North and the Métis). How many in the land of the Puritans in New England? Only 8,600 in Maine, 2,132 in Vermont, 2,036 in New Hampshire, 14,764 in Massachusetts, 9,900 in Connecticut. The Puritan Calvinists just wiped them out, unlike the French Catholics. Upstate New York has only 36,200 Natives.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

     

    You are making a categorization error, based on differences between American English and français québécois.

    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)

    In America, not counting Latinos, there is only one category: those who call themselves "Indian." Some of these, like the Navajo (one of the bigger groups, who were probably growing the most corn, being in the right climatic area) are very Amerind. Others like the Miꞌkmaq, who span into Canada from Maine, often show very Euro phenotypes. They are still "Indians", even though they often have blue eyes and blond hair, and even though their campaign for recognition, I believe, continues to fail.

    Similarly, there are many "Indians" in Oklahoma, who were they in Quebec might be called "Métis" or even be presumed to be French. In the US, we also have black "Indians", which I am not sure what they would call, as last time I was in Quebec, Canada hadn't yet been invaded by blacks. (though that was a long time ago.)

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of "Indians" in America. The reason is climate.

    Replies: @AP, @sher singh

    , @songbird
    @AP


    14,764 in Massachusetts
     
    Curious, on the 2010 census, there were 37,000. Are you sure you didn't count households?

    https://historyofmassachusetts.org/native-american-tribes/

    Replies: @AP

  124. German_reader says:
    @AP
    @German_reader


    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time.
     
    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala. It is probably meaningful that the two parts of India with a history of having been ruled by Portugal are also the most developed and richest. The Indian state of Karnataka, on the same Malabar Coast as these states but without a history of having been ruled by Portugal, is a lot poorer and less developed than the former Portuguese territories.

    The Portuguese also ruled much of Sri Lanka for over 100 years, and the Catholicism that they brought is the largest Christian faith in Sri Lanka (there are 1.3 million Catholics and 300,000 Protestants in Sri Lanka). Sri Lanka is richer and more developed than India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nepal.

    severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors
     
    It seems that the wealth and development of Portuguese ruled territory in South Asia are not coincidental. Their rule seems to have been benign and to have had good effect.

    (Macau is richer per capita than Hong Kong and Singapore but I suspect this is due to the casinos).

    Replies: @German_reader, @RSDB

    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala.

    tbh I think neither you nor I know enough about India to really have any idea what is behind the differences between north and south India. I doubt it can be reduced merely to Portuguese rule or Catholicism, there must be many other factors (there are vast differences between the regions after all, linguistically, culturally, in the caste system…arguably the people in north and south India aren’t even the same genetically). I’ll grant though that Portuguese rule doesn’t seem to have had any lasting negative effects, and probably left at least some nice architecture behind.

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader

    I agree, there are a lot of other factors involved so the conclusion cannot be definitive.

    The fact that within the same region the one non-Portuguese ruled state is a lot poorer and less developed than the two Portuguese ruled ones that border it (although it is about average for all of India) does suggests IMO that Portuguese rule was beneficial.

    Replies: @sher singh

  125. @AP
    @Hyperborean


    As an antecedent, the pre-dissolution Jesuits (who held ultramontane views) in Latin America* and Asia showed that they were willing to de-Europeanise Christianity if it meant they could gain converts.
     
    Jesuit efforts in Latin America certainly wasn't de-Europeanisation!

    The Jesuits brilliantly taught the natives of South America to build beautiful baroque churches in the jungles and savannahs:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ruinas-saomiguel13.jpg

    https://static.dw.com/image/19510452_303.jpg

    They also taught the previously savage natives to play beautiful baroque music:

    https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/paraguay604/music.html

    "These missions, known as reducciones, became home and refuge to thousands of Paraguay's Guarani Indians. The missionaries not only provided shelter but also taught the Guarani people to play European music and make their own instruments, including the cello, harp and violin. Each mission had a church, an orchestra, several artisans' shops, and schools of music and painting."

    The Natives were even composing such music!

    An example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeYBdGN7OQ

    This was essentially the opposite of wokeness, which is now trying to nullify Western civilization, even to the point of introducing pre-Christian demon-"gods" to Mexican-American children.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/3/parents-sue-california-over-mandated-chants-aztec-/

    "A group of parents in California sued the State Board of Education Friday over a proposed new “Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum” (ESMC) that would have public school students chanting affirmations to Aztec gods and invoking an ancient Nigerian Yoruba religious prayer."

    The Jesuits also taught the techniques of skillful warfare, enabling them to defeat would-be Portuguese slave raiders.

    These Jesuit missions were the best of European efforts outside Europe, saving souls, protecting natives from slavery, and bringing beauty into the world.

    Compare the Jesuit activities to those of the Calvinists in North America who were living dour lives and mostly slaughtering the natives.


    Catholic Liberation Theology predates the ‘Great Awokening’ by decades.
     
    This, also not good, is a different creature from wokeness.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Hyperborean, @Aedib, @Yevardian

    Of course, the main reason we still know so much about Aztec and Incan societies is because the missionaries went out of their way to preserve their texts. The previous native-state languages, Nahuatl and Quechua, actually spread to a larger spoken area than previously, literacy in Nahuatl (I don’t know so much about Quechua, but the aftermaeth of Tupac Amaru’s rebellion definitely resulted in much worse ethnic-tensions than in Central Mexico) was strongly encouraged, whole Aztec codexes post-date the Spanish conquest.
    It took until the 17th Century that the Spanish Empire changed it policy and started actively discouraging usage of local languages, but it was still quite lazy about it. Ironically, it was the independence of Latin America that produced the first active persecution and rejection of any tongues other than Spanish, as previously Spain had always maintained a power-balance between the indigenous peasants against the ostensibly ‘white’ creole elite.

    Even now the racial lines in Latin American politics remain extremely obvious, with Chavez, Evol Morales, now with Pedro Castillo (I recall a few months ago some Peruvian claiming he was going to the bring the apocalypse and that he’d stay abroad without a visa if I had to, we’ll see).

    Oh, last thing, I recall scoffing at Dmitri (maybe a year ago) about how ‘he learned Spanish without effort’.. well, it did turn out that was in fact more or less correct, at least regarding reading, or listening with local subtitles. I guess being familiar with Romanian already helped a lot, but I was really surprised by how simple it was, I thought only English was so simple to learn to a functional level. Speaking of accents, I have to say I find Seseo sounds disgusting.

    • Agree: AP
  126. German_reader says:
    @Yevardian
    @German_reader


    I’ve got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it’s always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don’t even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn’t accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.
     
    You probably know already, but yes, religion has never really formed a key part of Albanian identity. The most revered aspect in all traditional Albanian society is the Kanun, a compendium of oral law governing blood feuds/pacts, marriage customs, inheritance, land rights, practically every aspect of pre-modern life. The Kanun equally governs behaviour for Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, it makes no distinction for religion.

    I used to think it had gone defunct after the long Hoxha years, but I can tell you from personal acquaitances, that even amongst urban and educated people it's very much alive. Well, perhaps not so surprising considering the degree of total anarchy Albania fell into until the late 90s, even worse than Armenia. Albania's entire electricity grid was actually breaking down, with consequences that can be imagined after daylight. Whole families simply fled Tirana to their ancestral villages during this period, it's actually universally remembered (I don't remember the phrase in Albanian [incidentally, it sounds very different to Slavic languages of the area, with lots of 'th' and 'the' sounds, also distinguishing the 'English r', a tap, and a trilled r, I think only Armenian also has this], unfortunately) as 'The Night of Dark Forces' in Albania, or something along those lines.
    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they're not the biggest niggers of Europe.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Emil Nikola Richard

    The Kanun

    I saw a documentary about this years ago, about men who had to go into hiding for decades because of blood feuds which had already killed several people on both sides. Really depressing. I’d assumed though it was limited to remote rural areas, bit disturbing that it seems to be more widespread.

    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they’re not the biggest niggers of Europe.

    I think both are easily topped by gypsies.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @German_reader


    I think both are easily topped by gypsies.
     
    Undoubtedly. NPR liberals will sometimes caterwaul about "the poor marginalized Roma" and how the word gypsy is racist, etc. I don't hear boo about no po' Albanians or Serbs.

    That conclusively proves that gypsies are the niggers of Europe and Albanians and Serbs are just poor whites.
  127. @German_reader
    @AP


    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala.
     
    tbh I think neither you nor I know enough about India to really have any idea what is behind the differences between north and south India. I doubt it can be reduced merely to Portuguese rule or Catholicism, there must be many other factors (there are vast differences between the regions after all, linguistically, culturally, in the caste system...arguably the people in north and south India aren't even the same genetically). I'll grant though that Portuguese rule doesn't seem to have had any lasting negative effects, and probably left at least some nice architecture behind.

    Replies: @AP

    I agree, there are a lot of other factors involved so the conclusion cannot be definitive.

    The fact that within the same region the one non-Portuguese ruled state is a lot poorer and less developed than the two Portuguese ruled ones that border it (although it is about average for all of India) does suggests IMO that Portuguese rule was beneficial.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @AP

    Go search for the holy foreskin while powered by vial's of Mary's breast milk u nasty ass Catholic.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/777363024196796426/915893451088863282/IMG_3994.png

    http://indiafacts.org/the-portuguese-inquisition-in-goa-a-brief-history/

    Goa is also where christcucks got demographically replaced by Hindus, template for all christendom||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  128. @AP
    @songbird


    These studies exclude the Métis people (there are nearly 600,000 of them in Canada).

    In America, these people call themselves Indians.
     
    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

    There are nearly 90,000 Indians in Quebec (this does not include Inuit in the North and the Métis). How many in the land of the Puritans in New England? Only 8,600 in Maine, 2,132 in Vermont, 2,036 in New Hampshire, 14,764 in Massachusetts, 9,900 in Connecticut. The Puritan Calvinists just wiped them out, unlike the French Catholics. Upstate New York has only 36,200 Natives.

    Replies: @songbird, @songbird

    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

    You are making a categorization error, based on differences between American English and français québécois.

    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)

    In America, not counting Latinos, there is only one category: those who call themselves “Indian.” Some of these, like the Navajo (one of the bigger groups, who were probably growing the most corn, being in the right climatic area) are very Amerind. Others like the Miꞌkmaq, who span into Canada from Maine, often show very Euro phenotypes. They are still “Indians”, even though they often have blue eyes and blond hair, and even though their campaign for recognition, I believe, continues to fail.

    Similarly, there are many “Indians” in Oklahoma, who were they in Quebec might be called “Métis” or even be presumed to be French. In the US, we also have black “Indians”, which I am not sure what they would call, as last time I was in Quebec, Canada hadn’t yet been invaded by blacks. (though that was a long time ago.)

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of “Indians” in America. The reason is climate.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird


    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)
     
    Métis are not only mixed but also exclusively Francophone and Catholic. They have no tribal awareness (other than as Métis). They are like Mestizos in Latin America (Spanish-speaking only, no real tribal affiliation, but of mixed blood). There are products of mixed marriage with Indians, but no such group in the USA and no Anglo mixed group in Canada either. It's a French thing, and a Spanish thing, and a Russian thing - but not an Anglo thing.

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of “Indians” in America. The reason is climate.
     
    There are nearly 90,000 Natives in Quebec. Add Metis and Inuit and it is 140,000. The climate is no much different than in New England, but in New England there are only around 30,000 Natives. So Quebec has three times more. Two regions, both settled by Europeans around the same time, both with fairly similar climates - yet three times more Natives live where the French settled versus where the Anglos settled.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @sher singh
    @songbird

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#Demographics_and_classification

    Close to 10% of newborns are Native in Canada, and the largest % are on the Anglo prarie.
    Ironically, where Franco-catholics were banned from settling.

    Natives and Catholics both compete for the same supply of mouthwash and gasoline||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AP

  129. @Yevardian
    @German_reader


    I’ve got no personal experience of the Balkans, but to me it’s always seemed Albanians care primarily about Albanianness, and don’t even pretend otherwise. Even our Serb commenters, who loathed them and came up with bizarre theories about their origin in the Caucasus, usually didn’t accuse Albanians of being jihadis, just of being violent and tribal people with criminal inclinations.
     
    You probably know already, but yes, religion has never really formed a key part of Albanian identity. The most revered aspect in all traditional Albanian society is the Kanun, a compendium of oral law governing blood feuds/pacts, marriage customs, inheritance, land rights, practically every aspect of pre-modern life. The Kanun equally governs behaviour for Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, it makes no distinction for religion.

    I used to think it had gone defunct after the long Hoxha years, but I can tell you from personal acquaitances, that even amongst urban and educated people it's very much alive. Well, perhaps not so surprising considering the degree of total anarchy Albania fell into until the late 90s, even worse than Armenia. Albania's entire electricity grid was actually breaking down, with consequences that can be imagined after daylight. Whole families simply fled Tirana to their ancestral villages during this period, it's actually universally remembered (I don't remember the phrase in Albanian [incidentally, it sounds very different to Slavic languages of the area, with lots of 'th' and 'the' sounds, also distinguishing the 'English r', a tap, and a trilled r, I think only Armenian also has this], unfortunately) as 'The Night of Dark Forces' in Albania, or something along those lines.
    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they're not the biggest niggers of Europe.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Emil Nikola Richard

    The first ethnographic data I was ever aware of on Albanians was in Elmore Leonard crime novels. About half Detroit and half Florida. The ones in Detroit had Albanians. Elmore Leonard presents them as criminal, violent, stupid, and insane.

    In Doring’s MI6 book he has hundreds of pages on Albania. The whole time I was skimming through this dullest fraction of the book I am wondering why would anybody in MI6 care about Albania? It seems about as insignificant in global politics as Afghanistan.

    Albanians are considered better than gypsies, no?

    Linh Dinh has some good Albania articles. I don’t think many people do recreational traveling to Albania.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    @German_Reader


    I saw a documentary about this years ago, about men who had to go into hiding for decades because of blood feuds which had already killed several people on both sides. Really depressing. I’d assumed though it was limited to remote rural areas, bit disturbing that it seems to be more widespread.
     
    Well, the Kanun doesn't just deal with blood feuds, I meant more that practically every demographic in Albania is still familiar with its tenets, or has defaulted to it in some way in a social dispute at some point.

    In Doring’s MI6 book he has hundreds of pages on Albania. The whole time I was skimming through this dullest fraction of the book I am wondering why would anybody in MI6 care about Albania? It seems about as insignificant in global politics as Afghanistan.
     
    Albania has access to the Mediterranean in the most volatile and unstable part of Europe.


    Albanians are considered better than gypsies, no?
     
    I think Congolese would be considered better than gypsies.

    Linh Dinh has some good Albania articles. I don’t think many people do recreational traveling to Albania.
     
    Yeah, I've read him intermittently since he was published here, but he seems to have gone off the deep end recently, as well as revealed how petty he was. At least he'll never be as batshit as Mike Whitney. He should have stuck away from politics and stuck with travel-writing.
  130. Reply to Songbird’s 936 on the other thread…

    IIRC, in one of his books, Richard Henry Dana Jr. said that while he was in San Francisco, he visited a French congregation and an Irish one. He felt that the French service was quite a lot more civilized and the Irish one primitive, which is really no wonder given that due to persecution there were practically no Catholic elite left in Ireland, and Catholics only owned 3% of the land.

    I didn’t know that the Catholic Irish owned so little land. Were the big estates broken up after independence?

    There was something is similar in England, the older Catholic churches are often smaller and less ornate than the grander Church of England ones (and sometimes Methodist, some of the Victorian Methodists seem to have liked imposing churches), or if you compare with what can be seen in France itself or Spain. By the time I was growing up obvious anti-Catholic and anti-Irish atttiudes had mostly gone, though among people from the more established middle or upper classes you could become aware it had some social significance, this must have been related to the status of the Catholic Irish before independence.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Coconuts


    I didn’t know that the Catholic Irish owned so little land.
     
    It seems remarkable to think of it, but Hugh O'Neill in Ulster (went to Protestant church, though probably a Catholic) may have been the most powerful landowner in Ireland by the time of his rebellion

    In 1641, after the plantations of Ulster and Munster, it was 59%. After Cromwell, I think it was down to <10%, in Connaught and Clare. This number bounced back up after the Restoration to 22% by 1688. After the Williamite War, by the time the dust settled and the courts had closed, in 1702, it was 14%, and I think nearly all of those were Normans (they were given priority), who traditionally would have seen themselves as English. Though, due to the Penal Laws, which affected inheritance among Catholics, this number became only about 3% from the mid 1700s-1870.

    Of course, that figure doesn't include some who might have had strong Catholic sympathies.

    Daniel O'Connell (1776-1847) was from one of the very few native Irish Catholic families who owned land. His family were able to accumulate it through a mix smuggling, which allowed them to generate cash, and the connivance of Protestant relatives who originally held much of it under their names. Daniel was actually fostered in his youth, which was an ancient Irish custom. Though I think it is uncertain whether his family was actually aristocratic in origin, eventually they owned tens of thousands of acres. They were the landlords of my family, which was very fortunate for them, as it meant that their rents were adjusted significantly downward, during hard times.

    Elsewhere it was still hard, though there was a minor swing in elite opinion. Another branch of my family, evicted in the late 1860s (decade of most evictions?) won a court case against their landlord, even though the jury were landlords. I once saw some very interesting photos of evictions during the 1880s. (I don't believe a movie has ever done it justice, from a perspective of visual scale, there were hundreds of policemen)

    TBH, I'm not really certain about later decades. Of course, there had been really massive emigration, and a lot of the land had been turned to pasture, as it was more profitable (cause of many of the evictions.) I think a lot of people were able to buy small plots of land, due to money being sent back. And I think that a lot of the gentry families became bankrupt, just as they did in England.

    But, as far as I know, there were never any land seizures. Protestants continued to control the capital, which they did not invest locally, or in Catholics. To at least a small degree, I suspect that this was a negative factor which way have helped the takeover of Ireland by multinationals. The quick sellout of the political elites, at very cheap prices. Not to mention, a desire to be inclusive and non-partisan and play down sentiment about blood.

    The first real immigrant invasion of Ireland was Nigerians, dropping anchor babies, which were made possible by a loophole made during the peace process in the 1990s.
    ____________

    There was something is similar in England, the older Catholic churches are often smaller and less ornate than the grander Church of England ones
     
    Cromwell's soldiers stabled their horses within churches.

    In 1798, I want to say around 130 churches were burnt down. (I've been hoping to see a list of them, but am unsure if one survives). One branch of my family, I do know had their church burnt down. It was blamed on Catholics. The next week, they met in a malthouse, and it was also burnt down. The local garrison commander offered a house he owned as a meeting place, but nobody came, as his men had murdered a few people.

    Different parish, and branch, but there's one grave that I suspect connects to my line (though hard to be 100% certain). Very eroded but appears to say March 17, 1798. And have some other reason to suspect that he was murdered, though I don't believe any trace of the story survives. The British army smashed all presses that reported outrages among Catholics.

    I only found this out recently, but one of my GG grandmothers was still alive during the War of Independence, and the Black and Tans attacked her village, smashing the windows and setting fire to roofs. (They murdered a few men nearby) Along another side of my family, I have heard rumor that my grandfather was some kind of runner. I wish I knew more about it.
  131. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Yevardian

    The first ethnographic data I was ever aware of on Albanians was in Elmore Leonard crime novels. About half Detroit and half Florida. The ones in Detroit had Albanians. Elmore Leonard presents them as criminal, violent, stupid, and insane.

    In Doring's MI6 book he has hundreds of pages on Albania. The whole time I was skimming through this dullest fraction of the book I am wondering why would anybody in MI6 care about Albania? It seems about as insignificant in global politics as Afghanistan.

    Albanians are considered better than gypsies, no?

    Linh Dinh has some good Albania articles. I don't think many people do recreational traveling to Albania.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    @German_Reader

    I saw a documentary about this years ago, about men who had to go into hiding for decades because of blood feuds which had already killed several people on both sides. Really depressing. I’d assumed though it was limited to remote rural areas, bit disturbing that it seems to be more widespread.

    Well, the Kanun doesn’t just deal with blood feuds, I meant more that practically every demographic in Albania is still familiar with its tenets, or has defaulted to it in some way in a social dispute at some point.

    In Doring’s MI6 book he has hundreds of pages on Albania. The whole time I was skimming through this dullest fraction of the book I am wondering why would anybody in MI6 care about Albania? It seems about as insignificant in global politics as Afghanistan.

    Albania has access to the Mediterranean in the most volatile and unstable part of Europe.

    Albanians are considered better than gypsies, no?

    I think Congolese would be considered better than gypsies.

    Linh Dinh has some good Albania articles. I don’t think many people do recreational traveling to Albania.

    Yeah, I’ve read him intermittently since he was published here, but he seems to have gone off the deep end recently, as well as revealed how petty he was. At least he’ll never be as batshit as Mike Whitney. He should have stuck away from politics and stuck with travel-writing.

  132. @AP
    @A123


    Protestants are essential to MAGA and Christian Populism. Protestant beliefs are at their core anti-Woke.
     
    As I posted, wokism stems from Protestantism and shares many key features with it, described by the Protestant minister whose words I provided.

    This does not mean that practicing Protestants would necessarily support Wokism, just as Catholics would not necessarily support some heretic pseudo-Catholic. There is nothing contradictory about conservative Protestants being anti-woke, and wokeness being a twisted and heretical offshoot of Protestantism.

    As Protestants are leading the charge against Wokenessw, it does not take too much effort to track down the most Woke branch of Christianity
     
    That would be mainline Protestantism with its practicing gay bishops and such. Congregational churches frequently fly BLM and trans flags, have lesbian ministers, etc.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

    practicing gay bishops

    They still need to practice?

    Might not brazenly buggering be more apt?[1]

    Now, to segue from this tongue-in-cheek* interlude to offer an entirely earnest contribution that is related, if only tangentially, to the topic addressed by the former.

    (*But not— decidedly, emphatically, unequivocally not– tongue-in {other anatomical parts}…)

    The categorical, absolute, doctrinaire assertions that homoeroticism is without exception both innate as well as immutable; that it is equivalent to normative heterosexuality (much less to sacred matrimony[2]); and the conflation (both witting as well as unwitting) of involuntary feelings with voluntary behaviors (as well as the conflation of specific, objectively unwholesome acts with homoeroticism, or even homoerotic activity, per se[3]). These are all manifestly false and objectively harmful.

    @Songbird:

    …beach bods…pretty girls…Long Beach…

    Anyone else reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line from the Jacuzzi scene in the 1986 blockbuster Back to School,
    “Maybe you girls can help me straighten out my Longfellow.”?

    To again segue from the jocular and raunchy to the earnest and chaste, I will offer another contention. This one, though, sure to be less popular, accepted or even palatable to the present audience than the previous.

    The Bikini vs. the Burka.

    This should be a false dichotomy. Between these opposite extremes, lies a vast expanse of moderation. If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    Dfordoom would almost certainly disagree. Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the redoubtable DFD? His last last posted comment dates to August and his blog has disappeared.

    Numbered notes, for some elaboration and elucidation, below break.

    [MORE]

    [1] It might incidentally be noted here that to infer from either this or any of my past comments evidence of categorical, unqualified condemnation of homoeroticism, per se on my part would be unfounded. A review of the relevant record would reveal that my criticism, and condemnations and any other attacks I have made within the area-in-question have been directed, rather clearly, emphatically, consistently and often painstakingly, against specific acts, behaviors, positions, views, attitudes, ideologies and movements. The paragraph that immediately follows the launching point for this note should serve as a prime illustration of the very point that the latter attempts to make.

    [2] Upon seeing a word such as sacred in any context such as this, it would seem that most people assume the writer or speaker is arguing from a specifically religious perspective. While such an assumption would generally have at least a high likelihood of being accurate, it need not be. Note that out of a total of seven definitions given for sacred in the first entry for the word at Dictionary [dot] com, a full four (the final four) have no inherent religious or other supernatural meaning or connotations.

    [3] An example of a homoerotic ideal that is at least considerably less unwholesome than the prevailing one, can be found at man2manalliance [dot] org. (GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Max Demian


    Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.
     
    I'm a bit torn on this sort of thing.

    One side of me really sees the negative aspects of bikinis. Foremost being that many women are ugly, and I think it helps sun worship, which I abhor. Also, I really like the aesthetics of traditional dress codes - I mean , like school uniforms, not the burka. And I also hate the aesthetics of lax dress codes, many become walking advertisements for globohomo companies, which I see as dehumanizing.

    But, OTOH, I really appreciate that K-selected signal, when you see a woman who is good-looking but dresses conservatively. if everyone dresses that way, it would be much harder to discern.

    But, then again, seeing cows in miniskirts is murder on the eyes.

    , @A123
    @Max Demian


    If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.
     
    From an HBD perspective, the bikini is much more sound. All of the genetic markers for optimum reproduction and mate selection are on display.

    From a culture perspective the bikini is a strong driver towards physical health in most societal subgroups. The fact that Leftoids were were driven to histrionics by a "Beach Body" ad is strong supporting evidence that bikinis are the correct choice.

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/composite-potien-gurl.jpg
     

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2706976/renee-somerfield-swimwear-collection/

    , @Barbarossa
    @Max Demian

    dfordoom seems to have checked out of Unz following the demise of AE's blog, since he seemed to have some crankiness about Karlin.

    I was checking into his personal blog a bit myself, and notice that it had been suddenly memory holed. I've wondered myself how he's doing Down Under. Hopefully he's doing okay.

  133. @iffen
    @A123

    People with unrealistic expectations pose a serious problem.

    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    Replies: @A123, @Max Demian

    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    A123‘s reflexively, categorically pro-(Zionist State that calls itself) Israel and anti-Muslim views do indeed appear caricature-like. And while far from certain that he is, in fact, a shill, I am not ready to entirely exclude such a possibility from the realm of probability.

    But does this comment of yours not contradict one that you had posted to this blog not long ago? Did you not, in the latter, state that while you initially and for some time were convinced that A123 was a Zionist shill, you subsequently, after acquiring greater familiarity with the fullness of his posted views– both here at Unz and also at what you referred-to as “his website”– concluded that his views were just too bizarre for him to be a mere shill?

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon, A123
    • Replies: @A123
    @Max Demian

    Clearly, I am a Christian. I find Iffen's Low-IQ accusations of "hasbara" quite bizzare.

    There are hasbra bots, and they are easily identified by one note posting. Clearly I am no such thing. For example,
    -- My entire debate with German_Reader. I point out that the source of SJW Wokeness is Europe generally and Germany specifically. For some reason he keeps falsely blaming America for Germanic Wokeness inspired by 16 years of Merkel's far Left leadership.
    -- Similarly posting over the impending economic collapse in China being driven by Evergrande and other property developers does not fit any model of "hasbara"

    The simple fact is that Iffen's failed #NeverTrump vendetta has driven him unto madness. No one can help him until he wants to get better. Lashing out at me is a symptom of his mental decline. I am not angry with him, and I forgive him.
    ___

    I see the Muslim Jihad against Christianity in it TRUE horror. Piles of dead bodies dead at Islamic hands. Some examples being, The Bataclan in Paris and the Pulse Night club in America.

    I look a little further and see additional Muslim massacres against other faiths, such as the Sbarro bombing in Jerusalem and the perpetual incursions into Hindu Kashmir. Of course, I support those who wish to get rid of Jihadist contamination. I am no friend of CCP Elite rule, however I have to admit when they get something right. Their treatment of infestation in China's Western lands is obviously correct. Slaves labouring in sex separated camps have little opportunity to breed or pass on destructive false beliefs.

    This does not imply relations between Christians, Jews, Indians, and Han Chinese will be perfect. However, it does not take deep analysis to reach an obvious TRUTH. They will all be better off with out the blood horror of Islamic contamination opposing native society.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    P.S. The linked website, https://theconservativetreehouse.com/ , is not "mine". I am simply giving it free publicity via the UR site feature.

  134. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    But I wonder if it is partly because Catholicism is also a national marker
     
    That's the case for all of Eastern Europe, no? It's similar with Serbs/ Albanians/Croats. Religion becomes an identity marker and on some level tied to ethnicity. This is ironic given the low levels of genuine religiosity in these countries.

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising country in the world, but from what I've seen in polls, people still declare themselves overwhelmingly Catholic. The youth just stop going to church. Putin's public displays of Orthodox piety is not matched by the church-avoiding youth. Yet public declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin - without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    This pattern repeats itself in country after country in Eastern Europe. A naïve analysis would conclude that Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn't the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by 'disapora nationalists', projecting their fantasies onto societies that do not conform to their cherished ideals.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP, @Dmitry

    Poland is the most rapidly secularising

    At least in comparison to other slavic nationalities (which includes the most secular in Europe), Poles are very religious though. You can see this if you visit a church in Western Europe – depending on area, it can be mostly Africans, Poles, Filipinos, Latins, etc.

    Catholicism is part of the mainstream culture in Poland.

    It’s completely not-comparable to Russia, where religion (even Hare Krishna) is really a very minority sect, obscure to most of the country, and to extent had never extended to the mainstream population (as late as in the 19th century, the clergy complains about the extreme difficulty of imposing norms on the peasants).

    So the average person doesn’t know what religion is teaching or the most basic things about it. The clergymen are writing on Facebook about how the visitors to their services don’t know the most simple customs. (Whereas in Poland, you can be sure average people know how the services go).

    Putin’s public displays of Orthodox

    Putin is a KGB officer, and a lot of the ruling class are from the intelligence serves of the USSR, so this is a different kind of politics. In countries like Poland, although their government is apparently considered “embarrassing” by educated Poles; they have seemed to be able to create a relatively more “normal” (or European, democratic) political reality nowadays. So I don’t think the Polish politicians are doing this kind of cynical appearing state-building attemptings.

    Since the end of communism, Poland has managed to create a kind of European, modern, democratic political system.

    declarations of belonging to the Orthodox faith has skyrocketed under Putin – without a concomitant rise in church attendence except for older boomers.

    There is also the type of religion or spirituality that is more discovered in Russia – it’s something that becomes attractive for older people. That is, people who were secular for most of their life, might become religious as they become old. They “discover religion” as they age, as you can say.

    Eastern Europe is far more traditional than the West, but when it comes to casual sex or abortion or church attendence this simply isn’t the case. Frankly, a lot of it comes across as sentimental and/or wishful thinking by ‘disapora nationalists’,

    I think it varies from which country we are discussing, and what you mean by traditional (which historical time it refers to).

    The more advanced countries of the USSR, like in Russia have maintained less traditions from the 19th century and earlier, than Western European countries.

    Western European countries like UK have far traditions of the 19th century and earlier, in comparison.

    But because of a slow of development in most of the country of the last 30 years, there is still more maintained a lot of the traditions of the 20th century in Russia (although the rapid computerization of the population in the last 10 years is scary, as the dying of the villages).

    Poland’s history is different as they have nationalism (unlike in Russia, where the history is imperialism). In Poland, self-consciously tried to maintain their folkloric culture as part of the nationalism project since various partitions.

    And what about those Southern countries like Romania, Bulgaria? These can seem incredibly traditional in some ways.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    So the average person doesn’t know what religion is teaching or the most basic things about it. The clergymen are writing on Facebook about how the visitors to their services don’t know the most simple customs. (Whereas in Poland, you can be sure average people know how the services go).
     
    That's surprising, because there really isn't that much to know, in terms of customs. All you really do is just stand there (when I was a kid, there were no pews at our church, just a bench by the wall for kids and the elderly, everyone else stood the entire time) and cross yourself when the priest does (and at other times as you deem it necessary - like after an 'amen' is a safe bet - generally by following other people, who themselves probably don't really know whether it's strictly required...). Maybe it's different in the Russian church.

    Of course, even knowing the customs is no guarantee of actual religious knowledge. My parents are a good example of this. The know (and follow) all the customs, but that and a couple of prayers in the morning and evening are all their religion consists of. We had a bible in the house but I never once saw them read it. I never once heard them discussing what some aspect of their faith meant to them, or heard them evaluate their behavior or a family issue in terms of what their faith requires of them. They would have no idea what any of the saints whose feast days they so diligently keep track of were famous for, or if they do, it would be something they half remember from a documentary they saw or, even more vaguely, a story they can recollect from their childhood, but certainly nothing they were ever spontaneously inspired to read up on. And yet neither of them have ever given me any reason to think that they believe Christianity to be anything but 100% true.

    Of course, for the longest time, this was entirely typical of the average Christian, going all the way back to the earliest days of the church. (Protestants sometimes seem to forget that disciples didn't go around handing out bibles lol.) I don't know much about it, but my guess would be that it's more or less the case today for the typical muslim in all those "traditional" and "highly Islamic" countries. To look at them, it's easy to think wow they're so devout, surely the content of the koran means everything to them. But who knows, maybe they care as much about the actual content of the koran as my parents care about the content of the bible - ie they'd quickly agree that if it's in there, it must in some way be "important," but their actual behavior evinces little interest in finding out.
  135. @Coconuts
    Reply to Songbird's 936 on the other thread...

    IIRC, in one of his books, Richard Henry Dana Jr. said that while he was in San Francisco, he visited a French congregation and an Irish one. He felt that the French service was quite a lot more civilized and the Irish one primitive, which is really no wonder given that due to persecution there were practically no Catholic elite left in Ireland, and Catholics only owned 3% of the land.
     

    I didn't know that the Catholic Irish owned so little land. Were the big estates broken up after independence?

    There was something is similar in England, the older Catholic churches are often smaller and less ornate than the grander Church of England ones (and sometimes Methodist, some of the Victorian Methodists seem to have liked imposing churches), or if you compare with what can be seen in France itself or Spain. By the time I was growing up obvious anti-Catholic and anti-Irish atttiudes had mostly gone, though among people from the more established middle or upper classes you could become aware it had some social significance, this must have been related to the status of the Catholic Irish before independence.

    Replies: @songbird

    I didn’t know that the Catholic Irish owned so little land.

    It seems remarkable to think of it, but Hugh O’Neill in Ulster (went to Protestant church, though probably a Catholic) may have been the most powerful landowner in Ireland by the time of his rebellion

    [MORE]

    In 1641, after the plantations of Ulster and Munster, it was 59%. After Cromwell, I think it was down to <10%, in Connaught and Clare. This number bounced back up after the Restoration to 22% by 1688. After the Williamite War, by the time the dust settled and the courts had closed, in 1702, it was 14%, and I think nearly all of those were Normans (they were given priority), who traditionally would have seen themselves as English. Though, due to the Penal Laws, which affected inheritance among Catholics, this number became only about 3% from the mid 1700s-1870.

    Of course, that figure doesn't include some who might have had strong Catholic sympathies.

    Daniel O'Connell (1776-1847) was from one of the very few native Irish Catholic families who owned land. His family were able to accumulate it through a mix smuggling, which allowed them to generate cash, and the connivance of Protestant relatives who originally held much of it under their names. Daniel was actually fostered in his youth, which was an ancient Irish custom. Though I think it is uncertain whether his family was actually aristocratic in origin, eventually they owned tens of thousands of acres. They were the landlords of my family, which was very fortunate for them, as it meant that their rents were adjusted significantly downward, during hard times.

    Elsewhere it was still hard, though there was a minor swing in elite opinion. Another branch of my family, evicted in the late 1860s (decade of most evictions?) won a court case against their landlord, even though the jury were landlords. I once saw some very interesting photos of evictions during the 1880s. (I don't believe a movie has ever done it justice, from a perspective of visual scale, there were hundreds of policemen)

    TBH, I'm not really certain about later decades. Of course, there had been really massive emigration, and a lot of the land had been turned to pasture, as it was more profitable (cause of many of the evictions.) I think a lot of people were able to buy small plots of land, due to money being sent back. And I think that a lot of the gentry families became bankrupt, just as they did in England.

    But, as far as I know, there were never any land seizures. Protestants continued to control the capital, which they did not invest locally, or in Catholics. To at least a small degree, I suspect that this was a negative factor which way have helped the takeover of Ireland by multinationals. The quick sellout of the political elites, at very cheap prices. Not to mention, a desire to be inclusive and non-partisan and play down sentiment about blood.

    The first real immigrant invasion of Ireland was Nigerians, dropping anchor babies, which were made possible by a loophole made during the peace process in the 1990s.
    ____________

    There was something is similar in England, the older Catholic churches are often smaller and less ornate than the grander Church of England ones

    Cromwell’s soldiers stabled their horses within churches.

    In 1798, I want to say around 130 churches were burnt down. (I’ve been hoping to see a list of them, but am unsure if one survives). One branch of my family, I do know had their church burnt down. It was blamed on Catholics. The next week, they met in a malthouse, and it was also burnt down. The local garrison commander offered a house he owned as a meeting place, but nobody came, as his men had murdered a few people.

    Different parish, and branch, but there’s one grave that I suspect connects to my line (though hard to be 100% certain). Very eroded but appears to say March 17, 1798. And have some other reason to suspect that he was murdered, though I don’t believe any trace of the story survives. The British army smashed all presses that reported outrages among Catholics.

    I only found this out recently, but one of my GG grandmothers was still alive during the War of Independence, and the Black and Tans attacked her village, smashing the windows and setting fire to roofs. (They murdered a few men nearby) Along another side of my family, I have heard rumor that my grandfather was some kind of runner. I wish I knew more about it.

    • Thanks: Coconuts, Barbarossa
  136. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    The most politically "woke" country in Western Europe is the Republic of Ireland
     
    Yes, but, Dim, have you been around the Irish? This is because they are so innocent and sweet. They are like children who want to be everybody's friend and be kind and gracious to everybody. They don't know how to say No. That's because they are completely unprotected and they don't have those hard*ss Germanic instincts. And because their tradition is one of the oldest in Northern Europe that stems from the likes of Pelagius.

    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I'm not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    they are so innocent and sweet

    Lol I know Republic of Ireland.

    If you said they are “responsive, charming, extroverted, and socially intelligent”, this is true. I will disagree with “innocent”.

    They are the most extroverted, self-confident, socially intelligent, kind of “tropical” friendly people, after maybe Italy.

    But charming is not the same as innocent, although maybe a sign of high levels of charming skills if you can make people (or teacher, police, boss, parents, etc) think you are innocent.

    By the way, I wonder why they developed such a friendly personality there? I was enjoying speculating something like claims Japanese became very polite, because they were without weapons, under control of samurais. Maybe Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills against English.

    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I’m not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.

    What it is said by Irish cultural about politics, is “we always support the weaker side”, because the mainstream attitude is to view themselves as victims of imperialism.

    So they (I mean mainstream of culture) view themselves like they victims of history, like another African-Americans or Native Indians. It’s not really the same as “woke” of the UK, as it doesn’t exactly involve as self-flagellation. Still it is something like “woke allies”. Whereas in the Kingdom, the woke view is that to admit they were imperialists, and then self-flagellate.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Dmitry

    Yes, I was going to say that the Irish developed the charm so they could BS their English overlords.

    As being mostly Irish myself I agree with you about a certain amount of "reservation mentality" relating towards victim-hood. The Irish sure did get the sharp end of a lot of sticks but it doesn't help to brood about generational woes.

    It always is an amusing side to the "bad Wypipo" mentality... where do the Irish fit in there?! I deserve reparations too! We wuz Kangz 'o Tara!

    , @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Maybe the Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills with English
     
    Well, they did have weapons later on. But it's not a bad guess. They are verbally quite astute. However, this does not explain why other peoples that were subjected to tyranny did not develop this light heartedness and charitability (such as our own people).

    And you're making a similar point as I tried to make. It seems their openness to the world comes from the feeling of charity (the Christian Caritas). Whereas certain other Western types go about it with a kind of a self-righteous fanaticism which seems to be more about status and the desire to control others and to impose their will on others.

    Of course, having wokeness arise from the victim narrative is not all that flattering... those things should be separated.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird

  137. @songbird
    @AP


    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

     

    You are making a categorization error, based on differences between American English and français québécois.

    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)

    In America, not counting Latinos, there is only one category: those who call themselves "Indian." Some of these, like the Navajo (one of the bigger groups, who were probably growing the most corn, being in the right climatic area) are very Amerind. Others like the Miꞌkmaq, who span into Canada from Maine, often show very Euro phenotypes. They are still "Indians", even though they often have blue eyes and blond hair, and even though their campaign for recognition, I believe, continues to fail.

    Similarly, there are many "Indians" in Oklahoma, who were they in Quebec might be called "Métis" or even be presumed to be French. In the US, we also have black "Indians", which I am not sure what they would call, as last time I was in Quebec, Canada hadn't yet been invaded by blacks. (though that was a long time ago.)

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of "Indians" in America. The reason is climate.

    Replies: @AP, @sher singh

    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)

    Métis are not only mixed but also exclusively Francophone and Catholic. They have no tribal awareness (other than as Métis). They are like Mestizos in Latin America (Spanish-speaking only, no real tribal affiliation, but of mixed blood). There are products of mixed marriage with Indians, but no such group in the USA and no Anglo mixed group in Canada either. It’s a French thing, and a Spanish thing, and a Russian thing – but not an Anglo thing.

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of “Indians” in America. The reason is climate.

    There are nearly 90,000 Natives in Quebec. Add Metis and Inuit and it is 140,000. The climate is no much different than in New England, but in New England there are only around 30,000 Natives. So Quebec has three times more. Two regions, both settled by Europeans around the same time, both with fairly similar climates – yet three times more Natives live where the French settled versus where the Anglos settled.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    Quebec: 1,365,128 km2 (land area)
    New England: 162,362 km2 (land area)

    Shall we call it 1/8? So you are saying that Quebec has 3x the natives as New England, but 8x the land?


    The climate is not much different than in New England
     
    I would disagree with this categorization, which seems to be falsified by the Inuit being one of the native groups of Quebec.

    Outside of snowstorms, which can be staggeringly horrible, winter in Boston and points South is not too horrible. Extreme cold (negative Fahrenheit) is fairly rare. Boston Harbor hardly ever freezes. OTOH, a hundred miles west or north, it can be quite horrible. So, you have a significant chunk of New England which compared to most of Canada, has mild winters, where it is common to get multiple thaws, even if sometimes a great deal of snow, which sometimes can be as heavy as concrete.

    So, basically what you have is relatively high agricultural potential for colonists. But low for Indians, who had no manure, no plow or draft animals (very rocky soil), and who had probably only just barely acclimated corn to this latitude, and only sowed snatch crops of it, being somewhat migratory. On the whole, it was not very different from England. And pretty accessible with big rivers like the Merrimack and the Connecticut.

    Though Quebec was quite different from France. Much harder to access. Much harsher and unforgiving. BTW, if you have not read it, I recommend the book Through a Howling Wilderness: Benedict Arnold's March to Quebec. (It is a short book and touches on this theme). Anyway, there may have been a little more mixing in Quebec as there were a lot of trappers there, or men living on the edge. However, the difference does not seem very great, when considering the area.

    Replies: @AP

  138. @Mikel
    @AP


    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why.
     
    Well, there's always multiple factors at play but the most important part of the explanation to this mystery is not very difficult to unravel. Just like 60 years of communism inoculated some Europeans against leftist fantasies, 40 years of clerical-nationalism inoculated others against right-wing extremism and to a large extent against religion itself.

    At the end of Franco's dictatorship and return to democracy being right-wing was very uncool, especially among younger people. In Italy, by contrast, being neo-fascist was transgressive and thus attractive for the young.

    What is surprising is how long these tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans may well never catch-up in wokeness to Westerners. In fact, that is what I perceive with my Polish son and his friends, all in their twenties. They are quite tolerant in sexual matters, including towards the LGB stuff, but otherwise they are very right-wing, particularly in racial and immigration matters. Religion is at best performative, I don't know that any of them is an observant Catholic.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Agathoklis

    Franco’s dictatorship

    I was just going to write this to AP.

    20th century Spain had for many years under a dictatorship, which had cynically exploited a rhetoric of “religion, conservatism” (while in some times of “moralist” Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes).

    After a pigeon in a Skinner box has been brutally electrocuted enough times, it will probably not “graduate” Skinner box, with positive associations to anything (even if only meaningless sounds) that had correlated to these electrocutions it had experienced in the Skinner box.

    tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans

    But in Russia and many postsoviet countries, there is not a “negative association” against previous politics, like in Spain after Franco. The worst electrocutions have been after the previous politics, rather than during them.

    That’s the sense it was better before in Soviet times. It’s from the 1970s, has been if not always becoming worse life, the national trajectories have been below most anyone’s expectations for how life would be. Postsoviet realities, are a feeling of being on the trashcan of history.

    Whereas in Spain it was from the post-Franco, to 2008, a situation of improvement of living standards, access to EU, infrastructure investment, increasing international prestige. Spain’s GDP was higher than the Russian Federation from 1990-2008, despite around multiple of 3,3 less people. Even just from the lines on the graph, you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.
     
    Not exactly. Spain grew economically very fast during the last decades of Franco's dictatorship. In the late 50s he abandoned the autarkic economic policies favored by the fascist-traditionalist branch of his supporters and put Catholic Opus Dei technocrats in charge of the economy. Their liberalization policies made Spain's growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan's.

    By the mid-70s the Spanish per-capita GDP was 79% of the then Common Market's. However, the international stagflation crisis began almost exactly after Franco's death and hit Spain even harder than the rest of Western Europe. Spain would not reach those levels of per-capita GDP until the 90s.

    In the 80s in some parts of Spain the motto of "With Franco we used to live better" became popular, which some leftists changed to "Against Franco we used to live better".

    in some times of “moralist” Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes
     
    I've seen you make this claim several times before but it's surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention. It definitely didn't happen in the most Catholic areas of the country. Many years ago I got to know a guy who had been in the brothel industry in the Basque Country since the 40s. He loved telling stories about the old times, including the police raids they had to fight against, but having lots of prostitutes was never something he mentioned. On the contrary, he said that he only began making real money when Latin American women finally arrived and the supply became stabilized. He was very fond of his Brazilian former employees and kept pictures of them partying with champagne.

    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated but this was a very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly forbidden. Even hardly erotic movies like Gilda were sanitized by the censors for the Spanish viewers. In order to see something like Marlon Brando's Last Tango in Paris poor Spaniards had to cross the border to France. Ironically, prostitution in France is forbidden nowadays so things have reversed and lots of French cross the border now in the opposite direction to avail themselves of those services.

    Anyway, what probably happened is that in the very harsh post-war years, when there were actually some deaths from starvation in Spain, cities where Catholicism was not so strong, such as Madrid or Barcelona, must have seen an increase in prostitution and other illegal activities. Smuggling and counterfeiting were certainly widespread in those years.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  139. @AP
    @songbird


    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)
     
    Métis are not only mixed but also exclusively Francophone and Catholic. They have no tribal awareness (other than as Métis). They are like Mestizos in Latin America (Spanish-speaking only, no real tribal affiliation, but of mixed blood). There are products of mixed marriage with Indians, but no such group in the USA and no Anglo mixed group in Canada either. It's a French thing, and a Spanish thing, and a Russian thing - but not an Anglo thing.

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of “Indians” in America. The reason is climate.
     
    There are nearly 90,000 Natives in Quebec. Add Metis and Inuit and it is 140,000. The climate is no much different than in New England, but in New England there are only around 30,000 Natives. So Quebec has three times more. Two regions, both settled by Europeans around the same time, both with fairly similar climates - yet three times more Natives live where the French settled versus where the Anglos settled.

    Replies: @songbird

    Quebec: 1,365,128 km2 (land area)
    New England: 162,362 km2 (land area)

    Shall we call it 1/8? So you are saying that Quebec has 3x the natives as New England, but 8x the land?

    [MORE]

    The climate is not much different than in New England

    I would disagree with this categorization, which seems to be falsified by the Inuit being one of the native groups of Quebec.

    Outside of snowstorms, which can be staggeringly horrible, winter in Boston and points South is not too horrible. Extreme cold (negative Fahrenheit) is fairly rare. Boston Harbor hardly ever freezes. OTOH, a hundred miles west or north, it can be quite horrible. So, you have a significant chunk of New England which compared to most of Canada, has mild winters, where it is common to get multiple thaws, even if sometimes a great deal of snow, which sometimes can be as heavy as concrete.

    So, basically what you have is relatively high agricultural potential for colonists. But low for Indians, who had no manure, no plow or draft animals (very rocky soil), and who had probably only just barely acclimated corn to this latitude, and only sowed snatch crops of it, being somewhat migratory. On the whole, it was not very different from England. And pretty accessible with big rivers like the Merrimack and the Connecticut.

    Though Quebec was quite different from France. Much harder to access. Much harsher and unforgiving. BTW, if you have not read it, I recommend the book Through a Howling Wilderness: Benedict Arnold’s March to Quebec. (It is a short book and touches on this theme). Anyway, there may have been a little more mixing in Quebec as there were a lot of trappers there, or men living on the edge. However, the difference does not seem very great, when considering the area.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird

    Now compare liveable territory versus tundra. Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England, further magnifying the discrepancy and highlighting the sad plight of Natives subjected to Anglo Calvinist settlement.

    The Saint Lawrence River valley is not much harsher than New England (due to lower elevation, milder than the mountainous parts). French settlers squeezing into here did not disappear the natives (this is why when I mentioned Native settlement I highlighted the 90,000 Indians and not the Inuit in the far North)

    Replies: @songbird

  140. @Aedib
    @Mike_from_Russia

    They are the echoes of Annalena Baerbock's words.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia

    On
    https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1043888
    “Has someone decided that 1500 is the limit? You’re wrong. Asia has accepted the challenge”

    Today, they have gained more than 20% during the trading session.

    • Replies: @Mike_from_Russia
    @Mike_from_Russia

    From - https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044001
    Gas in Europe is trading at 1550+
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/image%20%2811%29_0.png

    It seems like it's just a new reality that you have to get used to.
    The whole modern industry is built on energy consumption, and energy has gone up a little so much. In a modest few times.
    Will the industry survive in these conditions? Big question.
    Here's another fun electricity price map.
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/IMG_20211216_111228_576.jpg
    These are wholesale prices.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Yellowface Anon, @A123

  141. @Max Demian
    @AP


    practicing gay bishops
     
    They still need to practice?

    Might not brazenly buggering be more apt?[1]

    Now, to segue from this tongue-in-cheek* interlude to offer an entirely earnest contribution that is related, if only tangentially, to the topic addressed by the former.

    (*But not-- decidedly, emphatically, unequivocally not-- tongue-in {other anatomical parts}...)

    The categorical, absolute, doctrinaire assertions that homoeroticism is without exception both innate as well as immutable; that it is equivalent to normative heterosexuality (much less to sacred matrimony[2]); and the conflation (both witting as well as unwitting) of involuntary feelings with voluntary behaviors (as well as the conflation of specific, objectively unwholesome acts with homoeroticism, or even homoerotic activity, per se[3]). These are all manifestly false and objectively harmful.

    @Songbird:


    ...beach bods...pretty girls...Long Beach...
     
    Anyone else reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line from the Jacuzzi scene in the 1986 blockbuster Back to School,
    "Maybe you girls can help me straighten out my Longfellow."?

    To again segue from the jocular and raunchy to the earnest and chaste, I will offer another contention. This one, though, sure to be less popular, accepted or even palatable to the present audience than the previous.

    The Bikini vs. the Burka.

    This should be a false dichotomy. Between these opposite extremes, lies a vast expanse of moderation. If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    Dfordoom would almost certainly disagree. Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the redoubtable DFD? His last last posted comment dates to August and his blog has disappeared.

    Numbered notes, for some elaboration and elucidation, below break.
    [1] It might incidentally be noted here that to infer from either this or any of my past comments evidence of categorical, unqualified condemnation of homoeroticism, per se on my part would be unfounded. A review of the relevant record would reveal that my criticism, and condemnations and any other attacks I have made within the area-in-question have been directed, rather clearly, emphatically, consistently and often painstakingly, against specific acts, behaviors, positions, views, attitudes, ideologies and movements. The paragraph that immediately follows the launching point for this note should serve as a prime illustration of the very point that the latter attempts to make.

    [2] Upon seeing a word such as sacred in any context such as this, it would seem that most people assume the writer or speaker is arguing from a specifically religious perspective. While such an assumption would generally have at least a high likelihood of being accurate, it need not be. Note that out of a total of seven definitions given for sacred in the first entry for the word at Dictionary [dot] com, a full four (the final four) have no inherent religious or other supernatural meaning or connotations.

    [3] An example of a homoerotic ideal that is at least considerably less unwholesome than the prevailing one, can be found at man2manalliance [dot] org. (GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Barbarossa

    Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    I’m a bit torn on this sort of thing.

    One side of me really sees the negative aspects of bikinis. Foremost being that many women are ugly, and I think it helps sun worship, which I abhor. Also, I really like the aesthetics of traditional dress codes – I mean , like school uniforms, not the burka. And I also hate the aesthetics of lax dress codes, many become walking advertisements for globohomo companies, which I see as dehumanizing.

    But, OTOH, I really appreciate that K-selected signal, when you see a woman who is good-looking but dresses conservatively. if everyone dresses that way, it would be much harder to discern.

    But, then again, seeing cows in miniskirts is murder on the eyes.

  142. @AP
    @German_reader

    I agree, there are a lot of other factors involved so the conclusion cannot be definitive.

    The fact that within the same region the one non-Portuguese ruled state is a lot poorer and less developed than the two Portuguese ruled ones that border it (although it is about average for all of India) does suggests IMO that Portuguese rule was beneficial.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Go search for the holy foreskin while powered by vial’s of Mary’s breast milk u nasty ass Catholic.

    http://indiafacts.org/the-portuguese-inquisition-in-goa-a-brief-history/

    Goa is also where christcucks got demographically replaced by Hindus, template for all christendom||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  143. @songbird
    @AP


    No, there are also Indians in Canada, including Quebec. The Metis are Mestizos; they are analogous to Coloreds in South Africa but there is no equivalent in Anglo North America.

     

    You are making a categorization error, based on differences between American English and français québécois.

    In Canada, there are two separate categories: Métis (who are mixed) and Indian (less mixed or perhaps, even sometimes pureblood)

    In America, not counting Latinos, there is only one category: those who call themselves "Indian." Some of these, like the Navajo (one of the bigger groups, who were probably growing the most corn, being in the right climatic area) are very Amerind. Others like the Miꞌkmaq, who span into Canada from Maine, often show very Euro phenotypes. They are still "Indians", even though they often have blue eyes and blond hair, and even though their campaign for recognition, I believe, continues to fail.

    Similarly, there are many "Indians" in Oklahoma, who were they in Quebec might be called "Métis" or even be presumed to be French. In the US, we also have black "Indians", which I am not sure what they would call, as last time I was in Quebec, Canada hadn't yet been invaded by blacks. (though that was a long time ago.)

    Add up Métis and Indians in Canada, and your total will still only be a tiny fraction of the number of "Indians" in America. The reason is climate.

    Replies: @AP, @sher singh

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#Demographics_and_classification

    Close to 10% of newborns are Native in Canada, and the largest % are on the Anglo prarie.
    Ironically, where Franco-catholics were banned from settling.

    Natives and Catholics both compete for the same supply of mouthwash and gasoline||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @AP
    @sher singh

    Prairies are full of French speaking Metis.

  144. @Mike_from_Russia
    @Aedib

    On
    https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1043888
    "Has someone decided that 1500 is the limit? You're wrong. Asia has accepted the challenge"

    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u35972/2021/JKM-15dec.jpg

    Today, they have gained more than 20% during the trading session.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia

    From – https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044001
    Gas in Europe is trading at 1550+

    It seems like it’s just a new reality that you have to get used to.
    The whole modern industry is built on energy consumption, and energy has gone up a little so much. In a modest few times.
    Will the industry survive in these conditions? Big question.
    Here’s another fun electricity price map.

    These are wholesale prices.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Mike_from_Russia

    It is just reflection of a current pricing policy in EU, which is regulated such way that in principle highest bidder makes the final price. e.g. French (or any other) nuclear industry is making a killing now with their self cost price being roughly around 40-50 EUR/Mwh, but they have to sell at a French gas powered electricity plant current self cost price of 350 EUR, despite it being the minority producer compared with nuclear one.

    That pricing policy can and will be changed if current situation will stay for longer.

    Replies: @sudden death

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Mike_from_Russia

    What's with cheaper Polish electricity?

    Replies: @sudden death

    , @A123
    @Mike_from_Russia

    It should be noted that these are "spot" prices for additional resources above contract.

    Places that have hedged well, V4 and Serbia, have very little volume at these prices. Germany hedged poorly and is now bearing the brunt of the price swings.

    PEACE 😇

  145. @Mike_from_Russia
    @Mike_from_Russia

    From - https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044001
    Gas in Europe is trading at 1550+
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/image%20%2811%29_0.png

    It seems like it's just a new reality that you have to get used to.
    The whole modern industry is built on energy consumption, and energy has gone up a little so much. In a modest few times.
    Will the industry survive in these conditions? Big question.
    Here's another fun electricity price map.
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/IMG_20211216_111228_576.jpg
    These are wholesale prices.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Yellowface Anon, @A123

    It is just reflection of a current pricing policy in EU, which is regulated such way that in principle highest bidder makes the final price. e.g. French (or any other) nuclear industry is making a killing now with their self cost price being roughly around 40-50 EUR/Mwh, but they have to sell at a French gas powered electricity plant current self cost price of 350 EUR, despite it being the minority producer compared with nuclear one.

    That pricing policy can and will be changed if current situation will stay for longer.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @sudden death

    Meanwhile though seeing such infamous Gazprom natgas guzzlers as Germany, Italy, Austria, Hungary or Serbia painted black, but "russophobe" Poland with more than 2x lower prices is quite pleasurable, lol :)

  146. I don’t know how anyone missed such an important literary event, but Hillary Clinton recently just published a sub Tom-Clancy thriller where a certain ‘Secretary of State’ saves the world, I was just reading a review of it in Private Eye (A British monthly, one of the few publications actually worth subscribing for, although I’m neither Anglo nor live in Britain, so most of their local news goes over my head), but the review had enough choice quotes to indicate it’s utterly batshit.
    Nearly all the ‘characters’ are thinly veiled versions of current leaders, somehow she couldn’t think of a less ridiculous name than ‘Mr Peugeot’ for Macron, or less generic than ‘Ivanov’ for Putin.

    Before you check, it has already averaged a 4.5 star-rating from 10’000+ reviews on amazon, I guess I’m just out of step with the times.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Yevardian

    It is reassuring that there are grifters on the left too.

    , @songbird
    @Yevardian

    Did you read that one where Merkel, after stepping down, becomes a detective?


    What will Angela Merkel do now? The German David Safier (Bremen, 1966) has turned her into a novel character: retired, together with her husband, she tries to adapt to her new life in a small town in the mountains. Circumstances cause her to become an amateur detective, trying to solve a murder, much to the despair of Mike, her bodyguard. Miss Merkel. The case of the retired chancellor (Seix Barral) is among the best-selling books in Germany since it appeared last March. The shift to carry Merkel’s calm and analytical leadership style – heed her legendary clasping hands gesture, the Merkel diamond, Merkel’s rhombus, on the cover of the Spanish edition – and her scientific past from chemistry and quantum physics to a detective adventure in the field has captivated German readers, and there is even a television series in preparation. This Wednesday it will arrive in Spanish [my bold] bookstores.

    “When I saw the possible successors who were vying for their position in the party, a certain nostalgia invaded me – says the author by video call, from his home in Bremen -. ‘Get your claws out of there!’ No one can match her, Merkel is by far the most popular policy in Germany for a long time. I was wondering: what is she going to do next? Surely she will not remain in the administration. And I don’t see her entering a company like, for example, the Russian leaders do with Gazprom. Until, watching an episode of Lieutenant Colombo, I had the enlightenment: I would solve murders! ”. “Like Colombo,” he continues, “Merkel is very intelligent but people tend to underestimate her. Her political rivals looked down on her, even in her own party. I have imagined that he returns to her region of origin and there she becomes a detective ”.
     
    https://today.in-24.com/world/389033.html
  147. @sudden death
    @Mike_from_Russia

    It is just reflection of a current pricing policy in EU, which is regulated such way that in principle highest bidder makes the final price. e.g. French (or any other) nuclear industry is making a killing now with their self cost price being roughly around 40-50 EUR/Mwh, but they have to sell at a French gas powered electricity plant current self cost price of 350 EUR, despite it being the minority producer compared with nuclear one.

    That pricing policy can and will be changed if current situation will stay for longer.

    Replies: @sudden death

    Meanwhile though seeing such infamous Gazprom natgas guzzlers as Germany, Italy, Austria, Hungary or Serbia painted black, but “russophobe” Poland with more than 2x lower prices is quite pleasurable, lol 🙂

  148. @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon


    Do you know what the graph represents? Argentina’s per capita GDP as a % of Western European & Anglo countries’ levels.
     
    That's what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.

    So in a world of an Argentinean digital peso & private cryptos, it will be more of the same.
     
    Not so sure about this.

    Don't know a lot about CBDCs, but I presume greater convertibility, so easier to change for competing currencies, with less inflation. Crypto also would have been a hedge against inflation.

    If nothing else, I suspect that there would at least be a much bigger black market economy, with many people working secretly for other currencies. Since crypto is easier to obtain than physical dollars. Not a cure all, but the standard of living would probably be higher.

    I think the performance of some Latin American countries could be much increased with the right technology to fight corruption. Probably, also true of Africa, to a degree, though with a much harsher regime needed there. (Probably social credits, segregation, and crowd AI.)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    That’s what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.

    I’m not sure if you graph-reading skills are working alright, or you’re getting the context. Argentina got rich by exporting grain and meat to Europe, something like a second Canada. Once the game was up during the Great Depression they switched to import substitution and stagnated. A few debt crises and they were done (and this is the economic side of the story).

    HBD-wise, the period with the greatest growth coincides with the greatest level of immigration (albeit with Sicilians and Spaniards).

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon

    Was talking about the bulge after WW2, in comparison to Europe. To a certain extent, it probably is related to another wave of immigration. (though not totally) But they probably wouldn't have come, if Buenos Aires had been firebombed or nuked.


    Argentina got rich by exporting grain and meat to Europe, something like a second Canada. Once the game was up during the Great Depression they switched to import substitution and stagnated.
     
    Mentioned before here, many times, but the story is not that simple. Their leaders for instance made stupendously corrupt trade deals with the English, which shafted Argentine sellers.
  149. @Mike_from_Russia
    @Mike_from_Russia

    From - https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044001
    Gas in Europe is trading at 1550+
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/image%20%2811%29_0.png

    It seems like it's just a new reality that you have to get used to.
    The whole modern industry is built on energy consumption, and energy has gone up a little so much. In a modest few times.
    Will the industry survive in these conditions? Big question.
    Here's another fun electricity price map.
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/IMG_20211216_111228_576.jpg
    These are wholesale prices.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Yellowface Anon, @A123

    What’s with cheaper Polish electricity?

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.

    Replies: @Aedib, @A123

  150. @Yellowface Anon
    @Mike_from_Russia

    What's with cheaper Polish electricity?

    Replies: @sudden death

    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.

    • Agree: Mike_from_Russia
    • Replies: @Aedib
    @sudden death

    So, Germany should start to use coal again. Unintended consequences of the green ideology.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia, @sudden death

    , @A123
    @sudden death


    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.
     
    Also, it appears that export grid capacity for Poland is already "maxed out". Thus the local producers are often unable to sell additional energy into the EU market. Whether intentional or unintentional, Poland as a country is winning. Low energy prices help beat back inflation.

    PEACE 😇
  151. @songbird
    @AP

    Quebec: 1,365,128 km2 (land area)
    New England: 162,362 km2 (land area)

    Shall we call it 1/8? So you are saying that Quebec has 3x the natives as New England, but 8x the land?


    The climate is not much different than in New England
     
    I would disagree with this categorization, which seems to be falsified by the Inuit being one of the native groups of Quebec.

    Outside of snowstorms, which can be staggeringly horrible, winter in Boston and points South is not too horrible. Extreme cold (negative Fahrenheit) is fairly rare. Boston Harbor hardly ever freezes. OTOH, a hundred miles west or north, it can be quite horrible. So, you have a significant chunk of New England which compared to most of Canada, has mild winters, where it is common to get multiple thaws, even if sometimes a great deal of snow, which sometimes can be as heavy as concrete.

    So, basically what you have is relatively high agricultural potential for colonists. But low for Indians, who had no manure, no plow or draft animals (very rocky soil), and who had probably only just barely acclimated corn to this latitude, and only sowed snatch crops of it, being somewhat migratory. On the whole, it was not very different from England. And pretty accessible with big rivers like the Merrimack and the Connecticut.

    Though Quebec was quite different from France. Much harder to access. Much harsher and unforgiving. BTW, if you have not read it, I recommend the book Through a Howling Wilderness: Benedict Arnold's March to Quebec. (It is a short book and touches on this theme). Anyway, there may have been a little more mixing in Quebec as there were a lot of trappers there, or men living on the edge. However, the difference does not seem very great, when considering the area.

    Replies: @AP

    Now compare liveable territory versus tundra. Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England, further magnifying the discrepancy and highlighting the sad plight of Natives subjected to Anglo Calvinist settlement.

    The Saint Lawrence River valley is not much harsher than New England (due to lower elevation, milder than the mountainous parts). French settlers squeezing into here did not disappear the natives (this is why when I mentioned Native settlement I highlighted the 90,000 Indians and not the Inuit in the far North)

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    Where are the Indians in Haiti?


    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England
     
    I'm not sure that this is correct. New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.

    But, leave it aside, as my contention is that the Indians on both sides were primarily huntergatherers. Some in Quebec being entirely huntergatherers, with zero agriculture, others sowing snatch crops, while those in New England only sowed snatch crops, meaning that they did not stay in one place the whole year, while looking after their fields, but fished or hunted deer and gathered nuts.

    It seems obvious that, according to the limits of this lifestyle, there would be many more hunter-gatherers in Quebec (much larger) than in (much smaller) New England. I'll also add that disease probably ravaged agricultural communities more, due to larger population sizes.

    And I think you would expect that there would be a little more mixing where there was less farming and more hunter-gathering, due to women being more amendable to living in agricultural communities than in icy forests, such as in the rather large Boreal Forest part of Quebec. That is why Quebecois often might be about 1% Indian, though the percentage for Mayflower New Englanders would be less.

    Pocahontas (English colony, though not from NE) actually has living descendants today, though she did not live a long time, due to diseases that she was not evolved for.
    _____
    Anyway, I don't think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be. Probably it would take extracting DNA from a lot of old bones (not something Indians are amendable to) and complicated modeling to get to something close to the real number, if it is even possible.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America. To start with, I think your attitude is too flippant, and that this flippancy comes from your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity (and perhaps no experience of an America with one), but more interest in elevating the newcomer.

    Meanwhile, though I don't come of Protestant stock, or anything close to Mayflower descent, I have some older, though not very old roots in America. However, half of my family was well-integrated into a traditional American cultural identity, which took place while the WASPs were still in ascendancy, and where there was little room for political correctness. During this time, mainstream historians still laughed at Sacagawea and Americans (there was then such a cohesive identity of closely-related Euros) were too prideful to be susceptible to these attacks meant to elevate not Indians, but the latest invader.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come? Would it have come, even if it was like Mexico? I'm not sure. Would you have miscegenated with an Squaw and given your half-breed daughters over to fully Indian males? Have you miscegenated?

    The English conquered a continent. What they did was hardly unique, except by scale. Japan experienced over 70% population replacement, after 150 AD. If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other. Even the Inuit committed their own genocide. I condemn neither, though they were certainly more barbaric peoples than colonial Euros, who gave them some measure of peace.

    Replies: @AP

  152. I thought Mongolia was a post-socialist growth champion that had been growing even faster than China up to 2012 or 14. Is it the Maddison Project database fooling me by giving me an especially low starting base, or is IMF overstating Mongol GDP in 1990?

    —–

    If the US could win a war with China (the Yankees will hopefully lose given the dysfunction), they would do to the Chinese economy what they couldn’t do in Germany right after WWII.

    Look up “Morgenthau Plan”. Something like this was done in 90s Russia, and this explains things in Ukraine or the Caucasus well. Chinese strategic planners should be warned, it’s a life or death struggle.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Quite likely sooner or later there will be Carribean/Berlin type of politico/military crisis over Taiwan, but it was apparent that neither Kruschev/Kennedy era soviets/americans really want global nuclear hot war, but psychological profile of some(?) CCP'ied Chinese may be kinda different - at least in words Mao was quite dissmisive of such threat regarding native population size, your own position seem quite eagerly nihilistic too.

    However modern India/CCP'íed China conflict treatment/resolution in reality seem to point that may be just posturing, cause there is not seen such eagerness of escalation into real nuclear conflict?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  153. @sher singh
    @songbird

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#Demographics_and_classification

    Close to 10% of newborns are Native in Canada, and the largest % are on the Anglo prarie.
    Ironically, where Franco-catholics were banned from settling.

    Natives and Catholics both compete for the same supply of mouthwash and gasoline||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AP

    Prairies are full of French speaking Metis.

  154. @Yevardian
    I don't know how anyone missed such an important literary event, but Hillary Clinton recently just published a sub Tom-Clancy thriller where a certain 'Secretary of State' saves the world, I was just reading a review of it in Private Eye (A British monthly, one of the few publications actually worth subscribing for, although I'm neither Anglo nor live in Britain, so most of their local news goes over my head), but the review had enough choice quotes to indicate it's utterly batshit.
    Nearly all the 'characters' are thinly veiled versions of current leaders, somehow she couldn't think of a less ridiculous name than 'Mr Peugeot' for Macron, or less generic than 'Ivanov' for Putin.

    https://www.amazon.com/State-Terror-Novel-Louise-Penny/dp/198217367X

    Before you check, it has already averaged a 4.5 star-rating from 10'000+ reviews on amazon, I guess I'm just out of step with the times.

    Replies: @Pericles, @songbird

    It is reassuring that there are grifters on the left too.

  155. @Yellowface Anon
    I thought Mongolia was a post-socialist growth champion that had been growing even faster than China up to 2012 or 14. Is it the Maddison Project database fooling me by giving me an especially low starting base, or is IMF overstating Mongol GDP in 1990?

    -----

    If the US could win a war with China (the Yankees will hopefully lose given the dysfunction), they would do to the Chinese economy what they couldn't do in Germany right after WWII.

    Look up "Morgenthau Plan". Something like this was done in 90s Russia, and this explains things in Ukraine or the Caucasus well. Chinese strategic planners should be warned, it's a life or death struggle.

    Replies: @sudden death

    Quite likely sooner or later there will be Carribean/Berlin type of politico/military crisis over Taiwan, but it was apparent that neither Kruschev/Kennedy era soviets/americans really want global nuclear hot war, but psychological profile of some(?) CCP’ied Chinese may be kinda different – at least in words Mao was quite dissmisive of such threat regarding native population size, your own position seem quite eagerly nihilistic too.

    However modern India/CCP’íed China conflict treatment/resolution in reality seem to point that may be just posturing, cause there is not seen such eagerness of escalation into real nuclear conflict?

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    No one in their good sense will want nuclear war. Mao was only bluffing, and China then was a country of peasants that could recover thru high birth rates. I don't think CCP would risk total collapse and instead try keeping conflicts at a cold or conventional warfare level.

    The American strategy is to isolate and ultimately embargo China into taking dangerous risks, at least in the long term. And behind it, you should read what Kissinger has to say about demographics and geopolitical thinking - something has to be done to China & India, foes and allies alike. Vaccinations can't go really far. It's the US that is sliding into nihilism for the last 2 decades or so starting with the War on Terrorism.

    Replies: @songbird

  156. @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.

    Replies: @Aedib, @A123

    So, Germany should start to use coal again. Unintended consequences of the green ideology.

    • Replies: @Mike_from_Russia
    @Aedib

    "..Amid record electricity prices in Europe, Germany will not change its plans and will shut down three nuclear reactors and 11 coal-fired thermal power plants in December. The country will lose generation capacity by 6.4 GW..."
    From - https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2021/12/14/energorynok-es-napryagsya-v-razgar-zimy-germaniya-zakryvaet-aes-i-tes-ceny-rastut

    , @sudden death
    @Aedib

    idk, it seems it way easier to save a green face while quietly mumbling something about low CO2 emissions from nuclear plants and "temporarily" prolong at least those 3 remaining active and profitable nuclear reactors further past 2022 because of "an energy crisis" in Germany than start using more coal again.

  157. @Aedib
    @sudden death

    So, Germany should start to use coal again. Unintended consequences of the green ideology.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia, @sudden death

    “..Amid record electricity prices in Europe, Germany will not change its plans and will shut down three nuclear reactors and 11 coal-fired thermal power plants in December. The country will lose generation capacity by 6.4 GW…”
    From – https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2021/12/14/energorynok-es-napryagsya-v-razgar-zimy-germaniya-zakryvaet-aes-i-tes-ceny-rastut

  158. @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Quite likely sooner or later there will be Carribean/Berlin type of politico/military crisis over Taiwan, but it was apparent that neither Kruschev/Kennedy era soviets/americans really want global nuclear hot war, but psychological profile of some(?) CCP'ied Chinese may be kinda different - at least in words Mao was quite dissmisive of such threat regarding native population size, your own position seem quite eagerly nihilistic too.

    However modern India/CCP'íed China conflict treatment/resolution in reality seem to point that may be just posturing, cause there is not seen such eagerness of escalation into real nuclear conflict?

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    No one in their good sense will want nuclear war. Mao was only bluffing, and China then was a country of peasants that could recover thru high birth rates. I don’t think CCP would risk total collapse and instead try keeping conflicts at a cold or conventional warfare level.

    The American strategy is to isolate and ultimately embargo China into taking dangerous risks, at least in the long term. And behind it, you should read what Kissinger has to say about demographics and geopolitical thinking – something has to be done to China & India, foes and allies alike. Vaccinations can’t go really far. It’s the US that is sliding into nihilism for the last 2 decades or so starting with the War on Terrorism.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Yellowface Anon


    . Mao was only bluffing,
     
    Bluffing and going head-to-head with a nuclear power, where the commanding general wanted to nuke China. And not many years, after using nukes on the Japs, and firebombing dozens of cities.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  159. @Aedib
    @sudden death

    So, Germany should start to use coal again. Unintended consequences of the green ideology.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia, @sudden death

    idk, it seems it way easier to save a green face while quietly mumbling something about low CO2 emissions from nuclear plants and “temporarily” prolong at least those 3 remaining active and profitable nuclear reactors further past 2022 because of “an energy crisis” in Germany than start using more coal again.

  160. @Max Demian
    @iffen


    So do hasbara bots spreading propaganda and hatred of Muslims.
     
    A123's reflexively, categorically pro-(Zionist State that calls itself) Israel and anti-Muslim views do indeed appear caricature-like. And while far from certain that he is, in fact, a shill, I am not ready to entirely exclude such a possibility from the realm of probability.

    But does this comment of yours not contradict one that you had posted to this blog not long ago? Did you not, in the latter, state that while you initially and for some time were convinced that A123 was a Zionist shill, you subsequently, after acquiring greater familiarity with the fullness of his posted views-- both here at Unz and also at what you referred-to as "his website"-- concluded that his views were just too bizarre for him to be a mere shill?

    Replies: @A123

    Clearly, I am a Christian. I find Iffen’s Low-IQ accusations of “hasbara” quite bizzare.

    There are hasbra bots, and they are easily identified by one note posting. Clearly I am no such thing. For example,
    — My entire debate with German_Reader. I point out that the source of SJW Wokeness is Europe generally and Germany specifically. For some reason he keeps falsely blaming America for Germanic Wokeness inspired by 16 years of Merkel’s far Left leadership.
    — Similarly posting over the impending economic collapse in China being driven by Evergrande and other property developers does not fit any model of “hasbara”

    The simple fact is that Iffen’s failed #NeverTrump vendetta has driven him unto madness. No one can help him until he wants to get better. Lashing out at me is a symptom of his mental decline. I am not angry with him, and I forgive him.
    ___

    I see the Muslim Jihad against Christianity in it TRUE horror. Piles of dead bodies dead at Islamic hands. Some examples being, The Bataclan in Paris and the Pulse Night club in America.

    I look a little further and see additional Muslim massacres against other faiths, such as the Sbarro bombing in Jerusalem and the perpetual incursions into Hindu Kashmir. Of course, I support those who wish to get rid of Jihadist contamination. I am no friend of CCP Elite rule, however I have to admit when they get something right. Their treatment of infestation in China’s Western lands is obviously correct. Slaves labouring in sex separated camps have little opportunity to breed or pass on destructive false beliefs.

    This does not imply relations between Christians, Jews, Indians, and Han Chinese will be perfect. However, it does not take deep analysis to reach an obvious TRUTH. They will all be better off with out the blood horror of Islamic contamination opposing native society.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    P.S. The linked website, https://theconservativetreehouse.com/ , is not “mine”. I am simply giving it free publicity via the UR site feature.

  161. @Mike_from_Russia
    @Mike_from_Russia

    From - https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044001
    Gas in Europe is trading at 1550+
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/image%20%2811%29_0.png

    It seems like it's just a new reality that you have to get used to.
    The whole modern industry is built on energy consumption, and energy has gone up a little so much. In a modest few times.
    Will the industry survive in these conditions? Big question.
    Here's another fun electricity price map.
    https://aftershock.news/sites/default/files/u17862/IMG_20211216_111228_576.jpg
    These are wholesale prices.

    Replies: @sudden death, @Yellowface Anon, @A123

    It should be noted that these are “spot” prices for additional resources above contract.

    Places that have hedged well, V4 and Serbia, have very little volume at these prices. Germany hedged poorly and is now bearing the brunt of the price swings.

    PEACE 😇

  162. @sudden death
    @Yellowface Anon

    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.

    Replies: @Aedib, @A123

    Poland is not using natgas for electricity production, their main&own source is native brown coal.

    Also, it appears that export grid capacity for Poland is already “maxed out”. Thus the local producers are often unable to sell additional energy into the EU market. Whether intentional or unintentional, Poland as a country is winning. Low energy prices help beat back inflation.

    PEACE 😇

  163. @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird


    That’s what I gathered. Easy to see in the peace dividend.
     
    I'm not sure if you graph-reading skills are working alright, or you're getting the context. Argentina got rich by exporting grain and meat to Europe, something like a second Canada. Once the game was up during the Great Depression they switched to import substitution and stagnated. A few debt crises and they were done (and this is the economic side of the story).

    HBD-wise, the period with the greatest growth coincides with the greatest level of immigration (albeit with Sicilians and Spaniards).

    Replies: @songbird

    Was talking about the bulge after WW2, in comparison to Europe. To a certain extent, it probably is related to another wave of immigration. (though not totally) But they probably wouldn’t have come, if Buenos Aires had been firebombed or nuked.

    Argentina got rich by exporting grain and meat to Europe, something like a second Canada. Once the game was up during the Great Depression they switched to import substitution and stagnated.

    Mentioned before here, many times, but the story is not that simple. Their leaders for instance made stupendously corrupt trade deals with the English, which shafted Argentine sellers.

  164. @Yellowface Anon
    @sudden death

    No one in their good sense will want nuclear war. Mao was only bluffing, and China then was a country of peasants that could recover thru high birth rates. I don't think CCP would risk total collapse and instead try keeping conflicts at a cold or conventional warfare level.

    The American strategy is to isolate and ultimately embargo China into taking dangerous risks, at least in the long term. And behind it, you should read what Kissinger has to say about demographics and geopolitical thinking - something has to be done to China & India, foes and allies alike. Vaccinations can't go really far. It's the US that is sliding into nihilism for the last 2 decades or so starting with the War on Terrorism.

    Replies: @songbird

    . Mao was only bluffing,

    Bluffing and going head-to-head with a nuclear power, where the commanding general wanted to nuke China. And not many years, after using nukes on the Japs, and firebombing dozens of cities.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @songbird


    where the commanding general wanted to nuke China

     

    There's some misunderstanding. Korean War was started by Kim with Stalin's go-ahead. Mao was left out of the loop.

    In the end Mao decided to enter, partly because the new PRC then badly needed Soviet economic assistance. The Soviets gave air support but not ground troops in Korea (this was one of the fissures that later led to Sino-Soviet Split).

    Recall that Soviets shares a border with North Korea, and had the Americans escalated would have also escalated.

    The comment that Mao made about "losing 300 million Chinese in a nuclear war and still have 300 million left" was in Moscow 1957, to the Eastern Euro Communist leaders in front of Khrushchev.

    So it was not so much of a bluff against the Americans but to assert "dominance" in the Communist camp.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @songbird

  165. @AP
    @German_reader


    Yes, but the British did for roughly the same amount of time.
     
    True, but the British-ruled parts of India that were not also Portuguese-ruled are a lot poorer than Kerala. It is probably meaningful that the two parts of India with a history of having been ruled by Portugal are also the most developed and richest. The Indian state of Karnataka, on the same Malabar Coast as these states but without a history of having been ruled by Portugal, is a lot poorer and less developed than the former Portuguese territories.

    The Portuguese also ruled much of Sri Lanka for over 100 years, and the Catholicism that they brought is the largest Christian faith in Sri Lanka (there are 1.3 million Catholics and 300,000 Protestants in Sri Lanka). Sri Lanka is richer and more developed than India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nepal.

    severe confirmation basis when it comes to Catholicism and ignore other factors
     
    It seems that the wealth and development of Portuguese ruled territory in South Asia are not coincidental. Their rule seems to have been benign and to have had good effect.

    (Macau is richer per capita than Hong Kong and Singapore but I suspect this is due to the casinos).

    Replies: @German_reader, @RSDB

    It is a funny thing about Sri Lanka– as far as I know, the Kandian Sinhalese never did very much persecution of Christians, but there were two groups who did, the Tamil kings of Jaffna, and the Dutch (who tried to suppress Catholicism specifically).

    Today many Tamils are Christian, roughly one in five (possibly a little more now as some converted during the recent war and that figure is from 1981), and, of the only descendants of the Dutch in Sri Lanka, the Dutch Burghers, every single one I have ever met has been Catholic.

    • Thanks: AP
  166. How many people have caught the Fed fibbing about U.S. inflation?

    Conservative Treehouse helpfully added Actual 2021 inflation (green) to a Fed chart where they maliciously omitted it: (1)

     

    The 6.8% inflation rate is just about where the dot in the “j” of the word projection would be located. That’s where we are currently.

    The SJW Elites with excess disposable income see this as a minor inconvenience. They genuinely do not understand the consequences to blue collar workers surviving paycheck-to-paycheck. Massive increases in gasoline price directly hit every personal fuel stop. Worse yet, every truck delivered product is going up to cover transportation costs.

    The DNC has unleashed Carter-flation 2.0. In the 80’s, the pro-MegaCorporation GOP(e) could not exploit that fully. Now, the MAGA GOP is ready to be the genuine Workers Party. All it will take is a few “honest vote counts” to render the Democrats into a permanent minority party.

    The alternative is civil disorder, or even Civil War. Main Street America is not willing to tolerate another stolen election.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇
    _____________________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/12/15/fed-chairman-jerome-powells-presser-should-alarm-everyone-on-main-street/

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @A123


    ...DNC has unleashed Carter-flation 2.0...
     
    Inflation always undermines the existing power structure. For elite it is as bad as losing a war. They ruling liberals didn't unleash it willingly, by 2021 they had no better alternative. The cumulative debts cannot be paid back - defaults or a jubilee could trigger a catastrophic chain reaction. The only alternative was to use inflation to devalue debts gradually - it buys time.

    The reason the Fed fibs about it is that they want the inflation benefits without the bad publicity. It usually doesn't work. This will get ugly. If MAGA was allowed to implement its full program in 2017-20 - or if Trump had more willpower to push it through - it could have been avoided: closed borders, domestic reindustrialization, growing economy, higher incomes - together that would have stabilized the system.

    But it didn't happen and by 2025 things could be too decrepit to try again.

    Replies: @A123

  167. @AP
    @songbird

    Now compare liveable territory versus tundra. Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England, further magnifying the discrepancy and highlighting the sad plight of Natives subjected to Anglo Calvinist settlement.

    The Saint Lawrence River valley is not much harsher than New England (due to lower elevation, milder than the mountainous parts). French settlers squeezing into here did not disappear the natives (this is why when I mentioned Native settlement I highlighted the 90,000 Indians and not the Inuit in the far North)

    Replies: @songbird

    Where are the Indians in Haiti?

    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England

    I’m not sure that this is correct. New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.

    But, leave it aside, as my contention is that the Indians on both sides were primarily huntergatherers. Some in Quebec being entirely huntergatherers, with zero agriculture, others sowing snatch crops, while those in New England only sowed snatch crops, meaning that they did not stay in one place the whole year, while looking after their fields, but fished or hunted deer and gathered nuts.

    [MORE]

    It seems obvious that, according to the limits of this lifestyle, there would be many more hunter-gatherers in Quebec (much larger) than in (much smaller) New England. I’ll also add that disease probably ravaged agricultural communities more, due to larger population sizes.

    And I think you would expect that there would be a little more mixing where there was less farming and more hunter-gathering, due to women being more amendable to living in agricultural communities than in icy forests, such as in the rather large Boreal Forest part of Quebec. That is why Quebecois often might be about 1% Indian, though the percentage for Mayflower New Englanders would be less.

    Pocahontas (English colony, though not from NE) actually has living descendants today, though she did not live a long time, due to diseases that she was not evolved for.
    _____
    Anyway, I don’t think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be. Probably it would take extracting DNA from a lot of old bones (not something Indians are amendable to) and complicated modeling to get to something close to the real number, if it is even possible.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America. To start with, I think your attitude is too flippant, and that this flippancy comes from your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity (and perhaps no experience of an America with one), but more interest in elevating the newcomer.

    Meanwhile, though I don’t come of Protestant stock, or anything close to Mayflower descent, I have some older, though not very old roots in America. However, half of my family was well-integrated into a traditional American cultural identity, which took place while the WASPs were still in ascendancy, and where there was little room for political correctness. During this time, mainstream historians still laughed at Sacagawea and Americans (there was then such a cohesive identity of closely-related Euros) were too prideful to be susceptible to these attacks meant to elevate not Indians, but the latest invader.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come? Would it have come, even if it was like Mexico? I’m not sure. Would you have miscegenated with an Squaw and given your half-breed daughters over to fully Indian males? Have you miscegenated?

    The English conquered a continent. What they did was hardly unique, except by scale. Japan experienced over 70% population replacement, after 150 AD. If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other. Even the Inuit committed their own genocide. I condemn neither, though they were certainly more barbaric peoples than colonial Euros, who gave them some measure of peace.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird


    Where are the Indians in Haiti?
     
    The pre-Columbian population in Haiti was tiny - in couple 10,000s, per genetic research. At least half probably died of disease.

    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England


    New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.
     
    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State, which has lots of arable land and was once the heartland of the large Iroquois confederacy.

    Anyway, I don’t think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be.
     
    Sure, but a discrepancy of that magnitude makes it hard to conclude that the French Catholics in Quebec didn't treat the natives a lot better than did the Calvinist Puritans.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America.
     
    French and Russians were fairly benign, Spaniards were on balance good (anything bad done by then was more than compensated for by the destruction of the evil demon-worshipping Aztec Empire), English were brutal and bad to the natives. That they then built a successful and prosperous society for themselves (and those who joined them) - more so than did the others in North America - speaks to the success of English governance and customs for their own people.

    your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity
     
    I'd like America to remain as it is (well, until recently, but it still has a long way to fall), because it is a good place to live and my kids and grandkids will be here.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come?
     
    They would have stayed in Western Europe. Some of them did.

    Ukrainians who moved to Paraguay became rich farmers and landowners though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Paraguay


    If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.
     
    I condemn evil where I see it. Genocide is evil. I wouldn't have existed if Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR, an invasion that involved tens of millions of deaths.. Should I be thankful for that, as I should be thankful for Calvinists for wiping out much of a continent?

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other.
     
    I don't pretend they were better, of course. Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict.

    Replies: @songbird

  168. @Max Demian
    @AP


    practicing gay bishops
     
    They still need to practice?

    Might not brazenly buggering be more apt?[1]

    Now, to segue from this tongue-in-cheek* interlude to offer an entirely earnest contribution that is related, if only tangentially, to the topic addressed by the former.

    (*But not-- decidedly, emphatically, unequivocally not-- tongue-in {other anatomical parts}...)

    The categorical, absolute, doctrinaire assertions that homoeroticism is without exception both innate as well as immutable; that it is equivalent to normative heterosexuality (much less to sacred matrimony[2]); and the conflation (both witting as well as unwitting) of involuntary feelings with voluntary behaviors (as well as the conflation of specific, objectively unwholesome acts with homoeroticism, or even homoerotic activity, per se[3]). These are all manifestly false and objectively harmful.

    @Songbird:


    ...beach bods...pretty girls...Long Beach...
     
    Anyone else reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line from the Jacuzzi scene in the 1986 blockbuster Back to School,
    "Maybe you girls can help me straighten out my Longfellow."?

    To again segue from the jocular and raunchy to the earnest and chaste, I will offer another contention. This one, though, sure to be less popular, accepted or even palatable to the present audience than the previous.

    The Bikini vs. the Burka.

    This should be a false dichotomy. Between these opposite extremes, lies a vast expanse of moderation. If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    Dfordoom would almost certainly disagree. Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the redoubtable DFD? His last last posted comment dates to August and his blog has disappeared.

    Numbered notes, for some elaboration and elucidation, below break.
    [1] It might incidentally be noted here that to infer from either this or any of my past comments evidence of categorical, unqualified condemnation of homoeroticism, per se on my part would be unfounded. A review of the relevant record would reveal that my criticism, and condemnations and any other attacks I have made within the area-in-question have been directed, rather clearly, emphatically, consistently and often painstakingly, against specific acts, behaviors, positions, views, attitudes, ideologies and movements. The paragraph that immediately follows the launching point for this note should serve as a prime illustration of the very point that the latter attempts to make.

    [2] Upon seeing a word such as sacred in any context such as this, it would seem that most people assume the writer or speaker is arguing from a specifically religious perspective. While such an assumption would generally have at least a high likelihood of being accurate, it need not be. Note that out of a total of seven definitions given for sacred in the first entry for the word at Dictionary [dot] com, a full four (the final four) have no inherent religious or other supernatural meaning or connotations.

    [3] An example of a homoerotic ideal that is at least considerably less unwholesome than the prevailing one, can be found at man2manalliance [dot] org. (GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Barbarossa

    If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    From an HBD perspective, the bikini is much more sound. All of the genetic markers for optimum reproduction and mate selection are on display.

    From a culture perspective the bikini is a strong driver towards physical health in most societal subgroups. The fact that Leftoids were were driven to histrionics by a “Beach Body” ad is strong supporting evidence that bikinis are the correct choice.

    PEACE 😇

      

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2706976/renee-somerfield-swimwear-collection/

  169. @A123
    @Mikel

    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump. He did exceedingly well with a non MAGA Senate impeding his efforts.

    You should feel more enthusiasm after the midterms. The negligence of Not-The-President Biden and his puppetmasters points to an impending blowout.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Mikel

    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump.

    Definitely both.

    I very much doubted he would deport 11 million illegals but I never thought he would actually increase legal immigration*, or that he would make relations with Russia worse, or that he wouldn’t be able to end any single war.

    This article made me spill my coffee yesterday. You may not find it so funny but I recommend you read it:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-rights-sun-tzuicide/

    * Like Derbyshire, I am an anti-immigrationinst immigrant. What’s best for your adopted country is not necessarily what’s best for you personally.

    • Troll: A123
    • Replies: @A123
    @Mikel

    So you wanted:

    -1- Trump to be Impeached by the Senate
    -2- MAGA to die
    -3- Unlimited Open [Muslim] Borders

    All of those things were inevitable consequences if Trump started a fight he was 100% sure to lose. Your stance in term of "outcome" is identical to Hillary Clinton's policy. Why are you backing her?

    Are you a loyal #Bidenista like Iffen? You sound like one.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    , @A123
    @Mikel


    [Trump] wouldn’t be able to end any single war.
     
    Trump Successfully Ended Two Wars!

    -1- Why are you lying about Trump's record?
    -2- Do you actually expect anyone to believe your obvious fabrication?
    _____

    Trump ended the Afghanistan War. He also avoided the SJW Milley fiasco that was the post-war formal withdrawal. The Pentagon intentionally killed American servicemen and abandoned thousands of Americans. If Trump had tried a withdrawal over Pentagon objections, how many would have been murdered?

    OBJECTIVE FACT -- Trump made 100% of the gains that could be achieved Afghanistan.
    _____

    Trump functionally ended American engagement in Syria. He moved American troops out of the kill sack between Assad's and Erdogan's forces. The death toll dropped to zero for months. The situation cannot be fully fixed until sociopath Khamenei and his Hezbollah terrorists depart, which was beyond Trump's control

    OBJECTIVE FACT -- Trump did 100% of everything that was *practically* achievable in Syria.
    ______

    Why do you refuse to praise Trump for Successfully Ending Two Wars?

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    , @A123
    @Mikel

    Mikel,

    Why are you TROLLING so much?

    I offer objective facts about Trump's ending of Wars in Afghanistan and Syria. You panic & retreat.

    If you really believe your #NeverTrump fiction, you should be willing to defend your attempt at deception.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  170. Finnish utility Teollisuuden Voima Oyj (TVO) has today received permission from the country’s Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority (STUK) to bring the Olkiluoto 3 (OL3) EPR to first criticality and conduct low-power tests.

    The regular electricity generation and commercial operation of the plant will start after the nuclear commissioning phase. TVO said OL3’s electricity production will now start at the end of January 2022, about one month earlier than previously anticipated. Regular electricity production is scheduled to begin in June.

    The Areva-Siemens consortium is constructing the OL3 plant under a fixed-price turnkey contract. They have joint liability for the contractual obligations until the end of the guarantee period of the unit. Construction of Olkiluoto 3 began in 2005. Completion of the reactor was originally scheduled for 2009, but the project has had various delays and setbacks.

    “We are now moving step by step with a safety-first attitude towards the moment we have waited for a long time,” said TVO Senior Vice President for Electricity Production Marjo Mustonen. “The preconditions for the startup of the reactor have been fulfilled, and soon we will be able to realise our promises on Finland’s greatest act for the climate.”

    https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/TVO-cleared-to-start-up-OL3-reactor

    😉

  171. @Yellowface Anon
    Speaking of Argentina's Whiteness:

    https://voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/campos%20fig1%2016%20dec.png

    Replies: @songbird, @Thulean Friend

    Argentina’s fall from grace is rather straightforward: They had a tiny population (comparatively speaking) living in a gigantic country. Argentina is also blessed with fantastic possibilities for agricultural production.

    They never had any serious industries. They got rich by exporting tons of agricultural stuff. A modern comparison would be Saudi Arabia in the 1970s. A big country with a (then) tiny population but huge amounts of oil. Before WWII, agriculture basically acted as oil for Argentinians.

    Around the mid-1930s, mechanisation really started to pick up. After the war, it boomed, in no small part because America became hugely mechanised, together with rapidly increasing productivity of midwestern farmers. This kept a lid food prices on a secular basis. Argentina, having no other industry to stand on, failed to find its footing ever since.

    • Agree: Aedib, Yellowface Anon
  172. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    Franco’s dictatorship
     
    I was just going to write this to AP.

    20th century Spain had for many years under a dictatorship, which had cynically exploited a rhetoric of "religion, conservatism" (while in some times of "moralist" Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes).

    After a pigeon in a Skinner box has been brutally electrocuted enough times, it will probably not "graduate" Skinner box, with positive associations to anything (even if only meaningless sounds) that had correlated to these electrocutions it had experienced in the Skinner box.


    tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans
     
    But in Russia and many postsoviet countries, there is not a "negative association" against previous politics, like in Spain after Franco. The worst electrocutions have been after the previous politics, rather than during them.

    That's the sense it was better before in Soviet times. It's from the 1970s, has been if not always becoming worse life, the national trajectories have been below most anyone's expectations for how life would be. Postsoviet realities, are a feeling of being on the trashcan of history.

    Whereas in Spain it was from the post-Franco, to 2008, a situation of improvement of living standards, access to EU, infrastructure investment, increasing international prestige. Spain's GDP was higher than the Russian Federation from 1990-2008, despite around multiple of 3,3 less people. Even just from the lines on the graph, you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.

    Replies: @Mikel

    you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.

    Not exactly. Spain grew economically very fast during the last decades of Franco’s dictatorship. In the late 50s he abandoned the autarkic economic policies favored by the fascist-traditionalist branch of his supporters and put Catholic Opus Dei technocrats in charge of the economy. Their liberalization policies made Spain’s growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan’s.

    By the mid-70s the Spanish per-capita GDP was 79% of the then Common Market’s. However, the international stagflation crisis began almost exactly after Franco’s death and hit Spain even harder than the rest of Western Europe. Spain would not reach those levels of per-capita GDP until the 90s.

    In the 80s in some parts of Spain the motto of “With Franco we used to live better” became popular, which some leftists changed to “Against Franco we used to live better”.

    in some times of “moralist” Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

    I’ve seen you make this claim several times before but it’s surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention. It definitely didn’t happen in the most Catholic areas of the country. Many years ago I got to know a guy who had been in the brothel industry in the Basque Country since the 40s. He loved telling stories about the old times, including the police raids they had to fight against, but having lots of prostitutes was never something he mentioned. On the contrary, he said that he only began making real money when Latin American women finally arrived and the supply became stabilized. He was very fond of his Brazilian former employees and kept pictures of them partying with champagne.

    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated but this was a very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly forbidden. Even hardly erotic movies like Gilda were sanitized by the censors for the Spanish viewers. In order to see something like Marlon Brando’s Last Tango in Paris poor Spaniards had to cross the border to France. Ironically, prostitution in France is forbidden nowadays so things have reversed and lots of French cross the border now in the opposite direction to avail themselves of those services.

    Anyway, what probably happened is that in the very harsh post-war years, when there were actually some deaths from starvation in Spain, cities where Catholicism was not so strong, such as Madrid or Barcelona, must have seen an increase in prostitution and other illegal activities. Smuggling and counterfeiting were certainly widespread in those years.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    make this claim several times before but it’s surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention

     

    Don't argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.

    Because my knowledge is only from open books in the book shop, sit on the sofa, and can remember pages.

    I don't read the books, so I don't have any deep knowledge of these topics. But I usually read a book for about 15 minutes, and can remember superficially knowledge these kind of facts. One of my hobbies is sitting in the book shop.

    So at best I can point to the pages of the book (if I can remember).

    This claim is from a book I cannot remember its name, but it is written by a British author (maybe Paul Preston?), sold in the book shop very prominently (very mainstream) where he wrote it as a high proportion of all Spanish women. If I remember the name, it will be numbers higher than you can believe (he claimed some hundreds of thousands of women).

    I can search for that if you want, later.

    -

    However, searching my old posts, and I could see I found this claim was supported by other history books, when I posted about it years later.

    This is a standard theme of the history book about Spain, 20th century. "Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone". (When population should be under a million).

    https://i.imgur.com/gYMIHSR.jpg


    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/113/1/260/43723


    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated

     

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956. According to the history book, it was only banned in 1956, after visit by US cardinal Francis Spellman convinced Franco that such a ban could improve Spain's international reputation.

    https://i.imgur.com/DZSVdn5.jpg


    Spain’s growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan’s.

     

    Sure the final decade of Franco had strong growth. But from growth from poverty more than other Western European countries, except countries like Greece or Portugal.

    This comparison to Japan, is from low base effect.

    Because Spain was more poor than other European countries, then the growth rate is high.

    But the actual growth (as opposed to rate of growth) is the standard of the Western countries of this decade.

    Rate of growth per capita will not more than Greece. It's only in post-Franco Spain, that the economy accelerates from Greece in the per capita terms.

    https://i.imgur.com/3DQpRHx.jpg

    You can play with World Bank yourself https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2007&locations=ES-US-FR-IT-GR&start=1960


    very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly
     
    This is what the professional work of the historian is - to show these politicians as part of complex dynamical system. So where in Franco's Spain, the government presents "puritan" censorship outwardly, while there is a state sanction prostitution, unequally distributed against losing areas of the war. And where these are temporary reactions against politic opponents.

    So historians 20th century Spain at least have an interesting narrative, with such kind of "swings" in their culture in the second half of the century.

    https://i.imgur.com/Ka0P3ro.jpg

    Replies: @Mikel, @Coconuts

  173. @Mikel
    @A123


    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump.
     
    Definitely both.

    I very much doubted he would deport 11 million illegals but I never thought he would actually increase legal immigration*, or that he would make relations with Russia worse, or that he wouldn't be able to end any single war.

    This article made me spill my coffee yesterday. You may not find it so funny but I recommend you read it:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-rights-sun-tzuicide/

    * Like Derbyshire, I am an anti-immigrationinst immigrant. What's best for your adopted country is not necessarily what's best for you personally.

    Replies: @A123, @A123, @A123

    So you wanted:

    -1- Trump to be Impeached by the Senate
    -2- MAGA to die
    -3- Unlimited Open [Muslim] Borders

    All of those things were inevitable consequences if Trump started a fight he was 100% sure to lose. Your stance in term of “outcome” is identical to Hillary Clinton’s policy. Why are you backing her?

    Are you a loyal #Bidenista like Iffen? You sound like one.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  174. I’ve always been skeptical of the narrative that Russia was “lost for generations” to the West. The current bad moods are an ocean wide but an inch deep. Most of it due to unforced errors committed by the West. If that changes, so will the relations.

    Russia is a deeply eurocentric country at its core. That will not change.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Thulean Friend

    Don´t get confused. Russians started to view the current USA with a little bit of contempt and condescendence. Don’t confuse the fall of the Russian hostility to the Westerners as affinity to the West. More and more they are saying “hey look, those Americans are initiating their Yeltsin era”.

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Strange relations between Russia and Europe, are something structural. It's not related to peoples' opinions, especially of non-elite people who are just like passive, passengers.

    For example, one of the motives for the need of separation from Europe, is because the elite of Russia lives for part of the year in Europe.

    You need information opacity between the two sides, for the current system to operate. If there was information sharing between Russia and the EU, there would be a disaster for the ordinary life of the political class. Imagine the tax harmonization, let alone the police investigations. When currently, a lot of elite can be even using different names when living in the EU than when living in Russia.

    Probably less important, but on the management of the non-elite population, imagine if there was more open borders between Russia and the EU. * Young non-elite people in Russia would flood to the EU in an vast exodus, and result could be like Bulgaria, and a nightmare in Europe when they would be flooded by the open border immigrants from Russia.

    You can see similar kind of strange relations between Azerbaijan and Russia. Where Azerbaijan's political class invests and lives in Moscow, while they need promote anti-Russian views in the Azerbaijani media. Public opinion in Azerbaijan is probably felt as part of their bargaining power when they are in Russia, as will be the lack of integration of the security services. There is also an information opacity between Azerbaijan and Russia, and this creates more power for the rulers of Azerbaijan. This means the Azerbaijan elite has an independent powerbase, while they are living in Russia. (Although this is just amateur speculation from me from the sofa, who knows what exactly their strategies).

    -

    * Uzbekistan has suffered some of the latter relations with Russia, and the Uzbekistan government is always trying to avoid integration to Russia, primarily in order to reduce the emigration flows to Russia.

  175. @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    you can infer how post-Franco stage had likely been experienced as positive by most of the population until 2008.
     
    Not exactly. Spain grew economically very fast during the last decades of Franco's dictatorship. In the late 50s he abandoned the autarkic economic policies favored by the fascist-traditionalist branch of his supporters and put Catholic Opus Dei technocrats in charge of the economy. Their liberalization policies made Spain's growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan's.

    By the mid-70s the Spanish per-capita GDP was 79% of the then Common Market's. However, the international stagflation crisis began almost exactly after Franco's death and hit Spain even harder than the rest of Western Europe. Spain would not reach those levels of per-capita GDP until the 90s.

    In the 80s in some parts of Spain the motto of "With Franco we used to live better" became popular, which some leftists changed to "Against Franco we used to live better".

    in some times of “moralist” Franco, a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes
     
    I've seen you make this claim several times before but it's surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention. It definitely didn't happen in the most Catholic areas of the country. Many years ago I got to know a guy who had been in the brothel industry in the Basque Country since the 40s. He loved telling stories about the old times, including the police raids they had to fight against, but having lots of prostitutes was never something he mentioned. On the contrary, he said that he only began making real money when Latin American women finally arrived and the supply became stabilized. He was very fond of his Brazilian former employees and kept pictures of them partying with champagne.

    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated but this was a very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly forbidden. Even hardly erotic movies like Gilda were sanitized by the censors for the Spanish viewers. In order to see something like Marlon Brando's Last Tango in Paris poor Spaniards had to cross the border to France. Ironically, prostitution in France is forbidden nowadays so things have reversed and lots of French cross the border now in the opposite direction to avail themselves of those services.

    Anyway, what probably happened is that in the very harsh post-war years, when there were actually some deaths from starvation in Spain, cities where Catholicism was not so strong, such as Madrid or Barcelona, must have seen an increase in prostitution and other illegal activities. Smuggling and counterfeiting were certainly widespread in those years.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    make this claim several times before but it’s surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention

    Don’t argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.

    Because my knowledge is only from open books in the book shop, sit on the sofa, and can remember pages.

    I don’t read the books, so I don’t have any deep knowledge of these topics. But I usually read a book for about 15 minutes, and can remember superficially knowledge these kind of facts. One of my hobbies is sitting in the book shop.

    So at best I can point to the pages of the book (if I can remember).

    This claim is from a book I cannot remember its name, but it is written by a British author (maybe Paul Preston?), sold in the book shop very prominently (very mainstream) where he wrote it as a high proportion of all Spanish women. If I remember the name, it will be numbers higher than you can believe (he claimed some hundreds of thousands of women).

    I can search for that if you want, later.

    However, searching my old posts, and I could see I found this claim was supported by other history books, when I posted about it years later.

    This is a standard theme of the history book about Spain, 20th century. “Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone”. (When population should be under a million).

    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/113/1/260/43723

    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956. According to the history book, it was only banned in 1956, after visit by US cardinal Francis Spellman convinced Franco that such a ban could improve Spain’s international reputation.

    Spain’s growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan’s.

    Sure the final decade of Franco had strong growth. But from growth from poverty more than other Western European countries, except countries like Greece or Portugal.

    This comparison to Japan, is from low base effect.

    Because Spain was more poor than other European countries, then the growth rate is high.

    But the actual growth (as opposed to rate of growth) is the standard of the Western countries of this decade.

    Rate of growth per capita will not more than Greece. It’s only in post-Franco Spain, that the economy accelerates from Greece in the per capita terms.

    You can play with World Bank yourself https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2007&locations=ES-US-FR-IT-GR&start=1960

    very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly

    This is what the professional work of the historian is – to show these politicians as part of complex dynamical system. So where in Franco’s Spain, the government presents “puritan” censorship outwardly, while there is a state sanction prostitution, unequally distributed against losing areas of the war. And where these are temporary reactions against politic opponents.

    So historians 20th century Spain at least have an interesting narrative, with such kind of “swings” in their culture in the second half of the century.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Don’t argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.
     
    No, the claim that "a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes" I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.

    “Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone”. (When population should be under a million).
     
    No, in 1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

    https://graficos.foro-ciudad.com/evolucion-poblacion/habitantes/1900/2020/1804-barcelona.png

    So I don't know how anyone managed to count the number of prostitutes in that city right after the end of the Spanish Civil War and with WWII in full rage in Europe but even that count of "epidemic" proportions gives us a percentage of only ~4%. And surely Barcelona, a former bastion of the Republic that attracted scores of impoverished immigrants, must have been one of the epicenters of the prostitution phenomenon in post-war Spain. Your own sources dismiss your initial claim.

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956.
     
    No, once again. Prostitution was never "officially sanctioned" in Francoist Spain. What happened was that a law from the Republic that prohibited prostitution was repealed and the activity itself became alegal because no law made it legal either but procuring prostitutes or profiting from their activity was always prosecuted with more or less zeal. In fact, even today prostitution is not fully legalized in Spain like it is in Germany or the Netherlands.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Coconuts
    @Dmitry

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can't consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco's wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Mikel, @Dmitry

  176. @Yevardian
    I don't know how anyone missed such an important literary event, but Hillary Clinton recently just published a sub Tom-Clancy thriller where a certain 'Secretary of State' saves the world, I was just reading a review of it in Private Eye (A British monthly, one of the few publications actually worth subscribing for, although I'm neither Anglo nor live in Britain, so most of their local news goes over my head), but the review had enough choice quotes to indicate it's utterly batshit.
    Nearly all the 'characters' are thinly veiled versions of current leaders, somehow she couldn't think of a less ridiculous name than 'Mr Peugeot' for Macron, or less generic than 'Ivanov' for Putin.

    https://www.amazon.com/State-Terror-Novel-Louise-Penny/dp/198217367X

    Before you check, it has already averaged a 4.5 star-rating from 10'000+ reviews on amazon, I guess I'm just out of step with the times.

    Replies: @Pericles, @songbird

    Did you read that one where Merkel, after stepping down, becomes a detective?

    [MORE]

    What will Angela Merkel do now? The German David Safier (Bremen, 1966) has turned her into a novel character: retired, together with her husband, she tries to adapt to her new life in a small town in the mountains. Circumstances cause her to become an amateur detective, trying to solve a murder, much to the despair of Mike, her bodyguard. Miss Merkel. The case of the retired chancellor (Seix Barral) is among the best-selling books in Germany since it appeared last March. The shift to carry Merkel’s calm and analytical leadership style – heed her legendary clasping hands gesture, the Merkel diamond, Merkel’s rhombus, on the cover of the Spanish edition – and her scientific past from chemistry and quantum physics to a detective adventure in the field has captivated German readers, and there is even a television series in preparation. This Wednesday it will arrive in Spanish [my bold] bookstores.

    “When I saw the possible successors who were vying for their position in the party, a certain nostalgia invaded me – says the author by video call, from his home in Bremen -. ‘Get your claws out of there!’ No one can match her, Merkel is by far the most popular policy in Germany for a long time. I was wondering: what is she going to do next? Surely she will not remain in the administration. And I don’t see her entering a company like, for example, the Russian leaders do with Gazprom. Until, watching an episode of Lieutenant Colombo, I had the enlightenment: I would solve murders! ”. “Like Colombo,” he continues, “Merkel is very intelligent but people tend to underestimate her. Her political rivals looked down on her, even in her own party. I have imagined that he returns to her region of origin and there she becomes a detective ”.

    https://today.in-24.com/world/389033.html

  177. @Thulean Friend
    https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1471487191943684097

    I've always been skeptical of the narrative that Russia was "lost for generations" to the West. The current bad moods are an ocean wide but an inch deep. Most of it due to unforced errors committed by the West. If that changes, so will the relations.

    Russia is a deeply eurocentric country at its core. That will not change.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Dmitry

    Don´t get confused. Russians started to view the current USA with a little bit of contempt and condescendence. Don’t confuse the fall of the Russian hostility to the Westerners as affinity to the West. More and more they are saying “hey look, those Americans are initiating their Yeltsin era”.

  178. @Thulean Friend
    https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1471487191943684097

    I've always been skeptical of the narrative that Russia was "lost for generations" to the West. The current bad moods are an ocean wide but an inch deep. Most of it due to unforced errors committed by the West. If that changes, so will the relations.

    Russia is a deeply eurocentric country at its core. That will not change.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Dmitry

    Strange relations between Russia and Europe, are something structural. It’s not related to peoples’ opinions, especially of non-elite people who are just like passive, passengers.

    For example, one of the motives for the need of separation from Europe, is because the elite of Russia lives for part of the year in Europe.

    You need information opacity between the two sides, for the current system to operate. If there was information sharing between Russia and the EU, there would be a disaster for the ordinary life of the political class. Imagine the tax harmonization, let alone the police investigations. When currently, a lot of elite can be even using different names when living in the EU than when living in Russia.

    Probably less important, but on the management of the non-elite population, imagine if there was more open borders between Russia and the EU. * Young non-elite people in Russia would flood to the EU in an vast exodus, and result could be like Bulgaria, and a nightmare in Europe when they would be flooded by the open border immigrants from Russia.

    You can see similar kind of strange relations between Azerbaijan and Russia. Where Azerbaijan’s political class invests and lives in Moscow, while they need promote anti-Russian views in the Azerbaijani media. Public opinion in Azerbaijan is probably felt as part of their bargaining power when they are in Russia, as will be the lack of integration of the security services. There is also an information opacity between Azerbaijan and Russia, and this creates more power for the rulers of Azerbaijan. This means the Azerbaijan elite has an independent powerbase, while they are living in Russia. (Although this is just amateur speculation from me from the sofa, who knows what exactly their strategies).

    * Uzbekistan has suffered some of the latter relations with Russia, and the Uzbekistan government is always trying to avoid integration to Russia, primarily in order to reduce the emigration flows to Russia.

  179. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    make this claim several times before but it’s surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention

     

    Don't argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.

    Because my knowledge is only from open books in the book shop, sit on the sofa, and can remember pages.

    I don't read the books, so I don't have any deep knowledge of these topics. But I usually read a book for about 15 minutes, and can remember superficially knowledge these kind of facts. One of my hobbies is sitting in the book shop.

    So at best I can point to the pages of the book (if I can remember).

    This claim is from a book I cannot remember its name, but it is written by a British author (maybe Paul Preston?), sold in the book shop very prominently (very mainstream) where he wrote it as a high proportion of all Spanish women. If I remember the name, it will be numbers higher than you can believe (he claimed some hundreds of thousands of women).

    I can search for that if you want, later.

    -

    However, searching my old posts, and I could see I found this claim was supported by other history books, when I posted about it years later.

    This is a standard theme of the history book about Spain, 20th century. "Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone". (When population should be under a million).

    https://i.imgur.com/gYMIHSR.jpg


    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/113/1/260/43723


    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated

     

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956. According to the history book, it was only banned in 1956, after visit by US cardinal Francis Spellman convinced Franco that such a ban could improve Spain's international reputation.

    https://i.imgur.com/DZSVdn5.jpg


    Spain’s growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan’s.

     

    Sure the final decade of Franco had strong growth. But from growth from poverty more than other Western European countries, except countries like Greece or Portugal.

    This comparison to Japan, is from low base effect.

    Because Spain was more poor than other European countries, then the growth rate is high.

    But the actual growth (as opposed to rate of growth) is the standard of the Western countries of this decade.

    Rate of growth per capita will not more than Greece. It's only in post-Franco Spain, that the economy accelerates from Greece in the per capita terms.

    https://i.imgur.com/3DQpRHx.jpg

    You can play with World Bank yourself https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2007&locations=ES-US-FR-IT-GR&start=1960


    very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly
     
    This is what the professional work of the historian is - to show these politicians as part of complex dynamical system. So where in Franco's Spain, the government presents "puritan" censorship outwardly, while there is a state sanction prostitution, unequally distributed against losing areas of the war. And where these are temporary reactions against politic opponents.

    So historians 20th century Spain at least have an interesting narrative, with such kind of "swings" in their culture in the second half of the century.

    https://i.imgur.com/Ka0P3ro.jpg

    Replies: @Mikel, @Coconuts

    Don’t argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.

    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes” I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.

    “Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone”. (When population should be under a million).

    No, in 1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

    So I don’t know how anyone managed to count the number of prostitutes in that city right after the end of the Spanish Civil War and with WWII in full rage in Europe but even that count of “epidemic” proportions gives us a percentage of only ~4%. And surely Barcelona, a former bastion of the Republic that attracted scores of impoverished immigrants, must have been one of the epicenters of the prostitution phenomenon in post-war Spain. Your own sources dismiss your initial claim.

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956.

    No, once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist Spain. What happened was that a law from the Republic that prohibited prostitution was repealed and the activity itself became alegal because no law made it legal either but procuring prostitutes or profiting from their activity was always prosecuted with more or less zeal. In fact, even today prostitution is not fully legalized in Spain like it is in Germany or the Netherlands.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

     

    Lol this is pedantic, and I knew when I was writing it that I should write - "Around a million". So either way, the claim would imply 4% of the Barcelona women at any time. Which is a crazy high number, and actually matches what I originally wrote.

    I'm not commenting whether this is true or not. Just that it matches what I have read in a bookshop. I also remember reading about in Zaragoza though (whereas here only about Barcelona).


    once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist
     
    Whichever exact phrase, what was written in your post does not match the history book text, which says it was not illegal until 1956, and official brothels were under government supervision. I'm just referring to the text in the history book, as my only information comes from what I read briefly sitting in a bookshop.

    There was actually a legal decision of 1941, in which they reject the prohibition of prostitution. https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:697822/

    https://i.imgur.com/JNYvaoa.jpg


    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

     

    I think the book where I saw these claims is "Mujeres caídas: prostitutas legales y clandestinas en el franquismo" (2003), as I read this in a Spanish bookshop.

    I was searching for the last 15 minutes online for this specifically, and I can access for free books by the author's father (a nuclear scientist). But maybe someone (like German Reader) can access it through the university.

    It was not Paul Preston (searching his books, he writes there was a "massive increase in prostitution under Franco").

    There is an article Wikipedia Spanish about the author.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirta_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez


    <blockquote I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.
     It's a very common narrative of the history books and also historians write "prostitution was legal".

    So my amateur writing that prostitution was legal under Franco, matches the words of professional historians - and I am a person who has not even read history books fully, although the legally registered number is low.

    So if you want to argue about the phrasing of the words (legal or not), then I am not the one you can blame.

    https://i.imgur.com/JfcEv8d.jpg

    https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fear+and+Progress%3A+Ordinary+Lives+in+Franco%27s+Spain%2C+1939+1975-p-9781405133166

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel, @Pericles

  180. @Mikel
    @AP


    This is indeed fascinating. I also wonder why.
     
    Well, there's always multiple factors at play but the most important part of the explanation to this mystery is not very difficult to unravel. Just like 60 years of communism inoculated some Europeans against leftist fantasies, 40 years of clerical-nationalism inoculated others against right-wing extremism and to a large extent against religion itself.

    At the end of Franco's dictatorship and return to democracy being right-wing was very uncool, especially among younger people. In Italy, by contrast, being neo-fascist was transgressive and thus attractive for the young.

    What is surprising is how long these tendencies persist after the facts that provoked them. That suggests that Eastern Europeans may well never catch-up in wokeness to Westerners. In fact, that is what I perceive with my Polish son and his friends, all in their twenties. They are quite tolerant in sexual matters, including towards the LGB stuff, but otherwise they are very right-wing, particularly in racial and immigration matters. Religion is at best performative, I don't know that any of them is an observant Catholic.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Agathoklis

    I have also attributed the long Franco dictatorship as the cause of Spain’s mad rush to hyper-liberalism compared to Italy. But how does that explain Greece? Greece also had long periods of so-called conservative ‘reactionary’ rule, even a dictatorship for seven years, but it remains more socially conservative than Spain. So the following schema: conservative, reactionary leads to hyper-liberalism
    and liberalism leads to conservative does not really hold.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Agathoklis

    Yes, any simplistic mechanism for social phenomena is always bound to fail in some cases. But I don't think that Greece experienced anything like the religious-political indoctrination that pounded Spaniards during 40 long years, along with a deep isolation from the rest of the Western world. Greece ended WWII fully in the camp of the victors, receiving, if I'm not mistaken, Marshall Plan funds from the very beginning. Spain was much more of a pariah state, condemned by the UN, and at the end of the dictatorship people had a big desire to enjoy the kind of life led by other Europeans that had been denied to them.

    With that said, I don't think there's any shortage of hardcore leftists in Greece either.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @Agathoklis

    Recent Greek history, especially as regards the fear they have of Turkey explains this very well. Greek nationhood and freedom was a liberal cause. Lord Byron died in support of it. This creates a more widely held sympathy with Greek continuity and conservatism than somewhere like Spain, where the dominant nationalism is also, seen by the left, as an oppressor one.

    Greece is like Estonia, Israel and even Finland. Spain is more like Russia, Germany and Sweden, in this regard. Some nationalisms were historically rooted in progressive movements, other were not, or have had that sheen scratched off them by other history.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  181. @Mikel
    @A123


    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump.
     
    Definitely both.

    I very much doubted he would deport 11 million illegals but I never thought he would actually increase legal immigration*, or that he would make relations with Russia worse, or that he wouldn't be able to end any single war.

    This article made me spill my coffee yesterday. You may not find it so funny but I recommend you read it:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-rights-sun-tzuicide/

    * Like Derbyshire, I am an anti-immigrationinst immigrant. What's best for your adopted country is not necessarily what's best for you personally.

    Replies: @A123, @A123, @A123

    [Trump] wouldn’t be able to end any single war.

    Trump Successfully Ended Two Wars!

    -1- Why are you lying about Trump’s record?
    -2- Do you actually expect anyone to believe your obvious fabrication?
    _____

    Trump ended the Afghanistan War. He also avoided the SJW Milley fiasco that was the post-war formal withdrawal. The Pentagon intentionally killed American servicemen and abandoned thousands of Americans. If Trump had tried a withdrawal over Pentagon objections, how many would have been murdered?

    OBJECTIVE FACT — Trump made 100% of the gains that could be achieved Afghanistan.
    _____

    Trump functionally ended American engagement in Syria. He moved American troops out of the kill sack between Assad’s and Erdogan’s forces. The death toll dropped to zero for months. The situation cannot be fully fixed until sociopath Khamenei and his Hezbollah terrorists depart, which was beyond Trump’s control

    OBJECTIVE FACT — Trump did 100% of everything that was *practically* achievable in Syria.
    ______

    Why do you refuse to praise Trump for Successfully Ending Two Wars?

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    • Troll: Mikel
  182. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    make this claim several times before but it’s surely a huge exaggeration, if not an outright invention

     

    Don't argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.

    Because my knowledge is only from open books in the book shop, sit on the sofa, and can remember pages.

    I don't read the books, so I don't have any deep knowledge of these topics. But I usually read a book for about 15 minutes, and can remember superficially knowledge these kind of facts. One of my hobbies is sitting in the book shop.

    So at best I can point to the pages of the book (if I can remember).

    This claim is from a book I cannot remember its name, but it is written by a British author (maybe Paul Preston?), sold in the book shop very prominently (very mainstream) where he wrote it as a high proportion of all Spanish women. If I remember the name, it will be numbers higher than you can believe (he claimed some hundreds of thousands of women).

    I can search for that if you want, later.

    -

    However, searching my old posts, and I could see I found this claim was supported by other history books, when I posted about it years later.

    This is a standard theme of the history book about Spain, 20th century. "Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone". (When population should be under a million).

    https://i.imgur.com/gYMIHSR.jpg


    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/113/1/260/43723


    Prostitution in Spain was only legalized in the 80s. Until then it was more or less tolerated

     

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956. According to the history book, it was only banned in 1956, after visit by US cardinal Francis Spellman convinced Franco that such a ban could improve Spain's international reputation.

    https://i.imgur.com/DZSVdn5.jpg


    Spain’s growth in the 60s the second highest in the world, after Japan’s.

     

    Sure the final decade of Franco had strong growth. But from growth from poverty more than other Western European countries, except countries like Greece or Portugal.

    This comparison to Japan, is from low base effect.

    Because Spain was more poor than other European countries, then the growth rate is high.

    But the actual growth (as opposed to rate of growth) is the standard of the Western countries of this decade.

    Rate of growth per capita will not more than Greece. It's only in post-Franco Spain, that the economy accelerates from Greece in the per capita terms.

    https://i.imgur.com/3DQpRHx.jpg

    You can play with World Bank yourself https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2007&locations=ES-US-FR-IT-GR&start=1960


    very puritan country where any kind of nudity was strictly
     
    This is what the professional work of the historian is - to show these politicians as part of complex dynamical system. So where in Franco's Spain, the government presents "puritan" censorship outwardly, while there is a state sanction prostitution, unequally distributed against losing areas of the war. And where these are temporary reactions against politic opponents.

    So historians 20th century Spain at least have an interesting narrative, with such kind of "swings" in their culture in the second half of the century.

    https://i.imgur.com/Ka0P3ro.jpg

    Replies: @Mikel, @Coconuts

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can’t consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco’s wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    • Thanks: Mikel
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left.
     
    He's probably pretty biased. I read Julius Ruiz, Paracuellos: The Elimination of the Fifth Column in Republican Madrid During the Spanish Civil War (about the major atrocity committed by the Republicans in the civil war, imo not that polemical a book, on some level one can even understand why the Republicans did what they did), and to me the criticism of Preston's interpretation of that event seemed quite devastating, like Preston went out of his way to put the most positive spin possible on the actions of Spanish left-wingers (iirc ironically even agreeing with Spanish right-wingers on the alleged role of NKVD agents in the massacre, for which there doesn't seem to be much evidence).

    Replies: @Coconuts

    , @songbird
    @Coconuts


    the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows
     
    Don't want to seem crass, but I think it is true that they were probably more r-selected.

    OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.
     
    Up until that time, this was peak population in Europe. More and bigger cities. More nodes of trade, greater wealth, and volume of trade. The Age of Exploration connected the world, bringing the horrible New World disease syphilis to the Old, where there were no adaptations against it.

    Probably, at least up until that time, it was the peak time for STDs.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    , @Mikel
    @Coconuts

    Thanks. That surely looks like a credible and very detailed report of the facts, collected by people on the ground in each provincial capital.

    Scans of some pages of the report can be found here: https://www.todocoleccion.net/libros-segunda-mano/informe-sobre-moralidad-publica-espana-memoria-1942-edicion-reservada-autoridades~x60672871

    One of them shows that in 1942 in Barcelona 1,144 registered prostitutes plus 1,400 clandestine ones were counted.

    Dmitry's proposition looks untenable. I don't believe that in any European country a "high proportion of women" (~25%+) ever became prostitutes in modern times and probably anywhere else in the world. The burden of proof certainly lies with anyone asserting the contrary.

    Preston's bias is well known. He became a media darling in post-Franco Spain, where a seemingly erudite British "hispanist" confirming how bad the fallen regime had been was always welcome.

    , @Dmitry
    @Coconuts


    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco
     
    I can't say much about this topic, as I only read about Spain in the bookshop to improve my Spanish language skill. I don't really know much about Spanish history, beyond skimming a few pages in the bookshop.

    Still Mikel needs to argue less with me, and more with whatever they write about Spanish history in the bookshops, because I just remember those books.

    What I found interesting about Paul Preston, is that his books are promoted in the book shops in Madrid, as the most authoritative historian, even while they are translated to Spanish from English.

    So when I was in the bookshop in Madrid and trying to read Spanish history books, the most promoted ones can be English authors. And Paul Preston is one of the main books I saw in Madrid bookshops.

    -

    If I remember talking about this in the forum before. Because I remember Paul Preston books are the most promoted 20th century Spanish history books in the Spanish bookshops.

    And I didn't want to read Spanish books with an English author, so I was searching bookshops in Madrid, trying to find something to buy from a Spanish historian.

    Scary that I about wrote this here on the forum 3,2 years ago. It feels like I wrote it a few hours ago. (Our life and youth is dying so fast).
    https://i.imgur.com/J9i261Z.jpg

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/petre-tutea-on-russians/#comment-2598018

    Replies: @Yevardian

  183. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @Dmitry

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can't consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco's wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Mikel, @Dmitry

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left.

    He’s probably pretty biased. I read Julius Ruiz, Paracuellos: The Elimination of the Fifth Column in Republican Madrid During the Spanish Civil War (about the major atrocity committed by the Republicans in the civil war, imo not that polemical a book, on some level one can even understand why the Republicans did what they did), and to me the criticism of Preston’s interpretation of that event seemed quite devastating, like Preston went out of his way to put the most positive spin possible on the actions of Spanish left-wingers (iirc ironically even agreeing with Spanish right-wingers on the alleged role of NKVD agents in the massacre, for which there doesn’t seem to be much evidence).

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @German_reader

    I have a book by Julius Ruiz called 'El Terror Rojo', a Spanish translation of this one:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Terror-Spanish-Civil-Revolutionary-ebook/dp/B00JXIIEVC/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Julius+Ruiz&qid=1639696851&sr=8-1

    I guess he produced the Paracuellos book afterwards as a more in depth case study. His other work I know was about the Francoist repression in Madrid after the end of the war, I don't remember noticing any obvious bias in them, he seems like a careful historian.

    The thing I noticed Preston doing was relying on the judgements of the Italian general Mario Roatta, about the battle of Guadalajara and Franco's generalship in general, very likely because they are negative assessments. But Roatta was the guy who wrote the failed Italian plan for Guadalajara, and was also in command when it was badly executed, so not a reliable source. Using him seemed clearly dubious, unless Preston had been deliberately looking for negative views.

    Replies: @German_reader

  184. @Coconuts
    @Dmitry

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can't consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco's wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Mikel, @Dmitry

    the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows

    Don’t want to seem crass, but I think it is true that they were probably more r-selected.

    OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Up until that time, this was peak population in Europe. More and bigger cities. More nodes of trade, greater wealth, and volume of trade. The Age of Exploration connected the world, bringing the horrible New World disease syphilis to the Old, where there were no adaptations against it.

    Probably, at least up until that time, it was the peak time for STDs.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Don’t want to seem crass, but I think it is true that they were probably more r-selected.
     
    It's possible with some of the more politically committed, but the large majority of the Republican army was made up of conscripts (I think they outnumbered volunteers around 9-1), so some were probably unlucky. From what I have read it would have been better for your family after the war if you managed to get captured and then re-conscripted into the Nationalist Army, because the veterans of the National Army were better provided for. This seems to have happened to quite large numbers.

    Up until that time, this was peak population in Europe. More and bigger cities. More nodes of trade, greater wealth, and volume of trade. The Age of Exploration connected the world, bringing the horrible New World disease syphilis to the Old, where there were no adaptations against it.
     
    Yes, this would definitely explain why there was this change of opinion and why there were campaigns against prostitution in the Italy and Spain in the 18th C.. The old approach would have become much more hazardous.
  185. I solemnly swear before God and everybody that I will never badmouth R. Unz again if he will only give us an idiot tab to the right of Hide Thread.

  186. Some have speculated that suicide is an evolved group defense for eliminating genetic load. I don’t know whether that is the case or not, but it has inspired me to speculate along a different line:

    We judge people by their symmetry, and there is some kind of mechanism whereby crazy people are much more apt to modify their bodies in such a way that it draws attention to their lack of symmetry. Might be a nose ring or tattoo or a buzzcut on a woman, or long hair on a man.
    _________
    In France in 1256, Louis IX , made a decree about banishing prostitutes who had signs of STDs.

    I don’t know how effective something like that was back then, but I do think it would be a brilliant move to adopt it today, and create chiefdoms based on different STDs. Would remove a lot of the undesirables.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    Listen Amerimutt, show me one culture where Gods have short hair & cut hair isn't a sign of serfs.
    Cutting someone's hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.

    Replies: @songbird

  187. @Coconuts
    @Dmitry

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can't consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco's wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Mikel, @Dmitry

    Thanks. That surely looks like a credible and very detailed report of the facts, collected by people on the ground in each provincial capital.

    Scans of some pages of the report can be found here: https://www.todocoleccion.net/libros-segunda-mano/informe-sobre-moralidad-publica-espana-memoria-1942-edicion-reservada-autoridades~x60672871

    One of them shows that in 1942 in Barcelona 1,144 registered prostitutes plus 1,400 clandestine ones were counted.

    Dmitry’s proposition looks untenable. I don’t believe that in any European country a “high proportion of women” (~25%+) ever became prostitutes in modern times and probably anywhere else in the world. The burden of proof certainly lies with anyone asserting the contrary.

    Preston’s bias is well known. He became a media darling in post-Franco Spain, where a seemingly erudite British “hispanist” confirming how bad the fallen regime had been was always welcome.

    • Agree: Coconuts
  188. @songbird
    @Coconuts


    the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows
     
    Don't want to seem crass, but I think it is true that they were probably more r-selected.

    OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.
     
    Up until that time, this was peak population in Europe. More and bigger cities. More nodes of trade, greater wealth, and volume of trade. The Age of Exploration connected the world, bringing the horrible New World disease syphilis to the Old, where there were no adaptations against it.

    Probably, at least up until that time, it was the peak time for STDs.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    Don’t want to seem crass, but I think it is true that they were probably more r-selected.

    It’s possible with some of the more politically committed, but the large majority of the Republican army was made up of conscripts (I think they outnumbered volunteers around 9-1), so some were probably unlucky. From what I have read it would have been better for your family after the war if you managed to get captured and then re-conscripted into the Nationalist Army, because the veterans of the National Army were better provided for. This seems to have happened to quite large numbers.

    Up until that time, this was peak population in Europe. More and bigger cities. More nodes of trade, greater wealth, and volume of trade. The Age of Exploration connected the world, bringing the horrible New World disease syphilis to the Old, where there were no adaptations against it.

    Yes, this would definitely explain why there was this change of opinion and why there were campaigns against prostitution in the Italy and Spain in the 18th C.. The old approach would have become much more hazardous.

    • Thanks: songbird
  189. @Agathoklis
    @Mikel

    I have also attributed the long Franco dictatorship as the cause of Spain's mad rush to hyper-liberalism compared to Italy. But how does that explain Greece? Greece also had long periods of so-called conservative 'reactionary' rule, even a dictatorship for seven years, but it remains more socially conservative than Spain. So the following schema: conservative, reactionary leads to hyper-liberalism
    and liberalism leads to conservative does not really hold.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Triteleia Laxa

    Yes, any simplistic mechanism for social phenomena is always bound to fail in some cases. But I don’t think that Greece experienced anything like the religious-political indoctrination that pounded Spaniards during 40 long years, along with a deep isolation from the rest of the Western world. Greece ended WWII fully in the camp of the victors, receiving, if I’m not mistaken, Marshall Plan funds from the very beginning. Spain was much more of a pariah state, condemned by the UN, and at the end of the dictatorship people had a big desire to enjoy the kind of life led by other Europeans that had been denied to them.

    With that said, I don’t think there’s any shortage of hardcore leftists in Greece either.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Mikel

    Greece end WWII with a three year civil war. At least initially, the Leftist rebels had significant popular support but this quickly waned as people grew tired of conflict. Thereafter, the successive Right wing governments censored the arts. I agree, it was probably not as bad as Spain but there was repression. Some of it justified. However, we had a military dictatorship beginning from 1967. It was only after the collapse of that regime in 1974 (mostly due to the debacle in Cyprus), that liberalising forces began and really accelerated in the 1980s. Despite this, and as you say, a strong radical Left, the people have largely remained some of the most socially 'conservative' in Europe. Even Leftists tend to be socially conservative e.g. pretending to be radical but really just living like typical petite bourgeois.

    I think you ignore the role of regionalism in Spain causing it to be the outlier in the Med. I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative. Greece does not have regional centripetal forces. Then again, Italy does. So, it is really hard to pinpoint why Spain is such an outlier. I don't know. Putting all that aside, they still have some attractive women (although this is changing towards Americanised forms of ugliness) which, I suppose, is the most important thing.

    Replies: @Mikel

  190. @Mikel
    @A123


    You can be disappointed in the end results, but not Trump.
     
    Definitely both.

    I very much doubted he would deport 11 million illegals but I never thought he would actually increase legal immigration*, or that he would make relations with Russia worse, or that he wouldn't be able to end any single war.

    This article made me spill my coffee yesterday. You may not find it so funny but I recommend you read it:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the-rights-sun-tzuicide/

    * Like Derbyshire, I am an anti-immigrationinst immigrant. What's best for your adopted country is not necessarily what's best for you personally.

    Replies: @A123, @A123, @A123

    Mikel,

    Why are you TROLLING so much?

    I offer objective facts about Trump’s ending of Wars in Afghanistan and Syria. You panic & retreat.

    If you really believe your #NeverTrump fiction, you should be willing to defend your attempt at deception.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  191. @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left.
     
    He's probably pretty biased. I read Julius Ruiz, Paracuellos: The Elimination of the Fifth Column in Republican Madrid During the Spanish Civil War (about the major atrocity committed by the Republicans in the civil war, imo not that polemical a book, on some level one can even understand why the Republicans did what they did), and to me the criticism of Preston's interpretation of that event seemed quite devastating, like Preston went out of his way to put the most positive spin possible on the actions of Spanish left-wingers (iirc ironically even agreeing with Spanish right-wingers on the alleged role of NKVD agents in the massacre, for which there doesn't seem to be much evidence).

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I have a book by Julius Ruiz called ‘El Terror Rojo’, a Spanish translation of this one:

    I guess he produced the Paracuellos book afterwards as a more in depth case study. His other work I know was about the Francoist repression in Madrid after the end of the war, I don’t remember noticing any obvious bias in them, he seems like a careful historian.

    The thing I noticed Preston doing was relying on the judgements of the Italian general Mario Roatta, about the battle of Guadalajara and Franco’s generalship in general, very likely because they are negative assessments. But Roatta was the guy who wrote the failed Italian plan for Guadalajara, and was also in command when it was badly executed, so not a reliable source. Using him seemed clearly dubious, unless Preston had been deliberately looking for negative views.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Coconuts


    I have a book by Julius Ruiz called ‘El Terror Rojo’, a Spanish translation of this one:
     
    Yes, I've read the English version of it. There's some overlap with the Paracuellos book, but the latter also contains quite a bit of new material (including discussion of the historiography about the Paracuellos massacre, its role in Spanish politics of remembrance etc.), so imo worth reading both.
    I've also read his book about the post-war trials of Republicans (Franco's justice), I agree, seemed like a pretty nuanced and fair study, definitely not just Francoist apologetics.
  192. @songbird
    Some have speculated that suicide is an evolved group defense for eliminating genetic load. I don't know whether that is the case or not, but it has inspired me to speculate along a different line:

    We judge people by their symmetry, and there is some kind of mechanism whereby crazy people are much more apt to modify their bodies in such a way that it draws attention to their lack of symmetry. Might be a nose ring or tattoo or a buzzcut on a woman, or long hair on a man.
    _________
    In France in 1256, Louis IX , made a decree about banishing prostitutes who had signs of STDs.

    I don't know how effective something like that was back then, but I do think it would be a brilliant move to adopt it today, and create chiefdoms based on different STDs. Would remove a lot of the undesirables.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Listen Amerimutt, show me one culture where Gods have short hair & cut hair isn’t a sign of serfs.
    Cutting someone’s hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @sher singh


    show me one culture where Gods have short hair
     
    Good question. My impression is that the Egyptian gods and pharaohs did not have long hair. Ramesses II's mummy survived with his hair. Of course, the point is somewhat obfuscated by many depictions of them in headdresses.

    Similarly, in Europe many artifacts exist that seem to depict gods wearing helmets, and so it it difficult to say what their hair was in every case. Various Greek and Roman leaders were deified, though they had short hair.

    Cutting someone’s hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.
     
    Never heard of this. Sounds like an interesting custom though.

    BTW, I didn't mean to hint Sikhs show they are crazy by growing their hair long. I don't think every man who grows his hair long is crazy, though certainly a greater percentage of Westerners who do are.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  193. German_reader says:
    @Coconuts
    @German_reader

    I have a book by Julius Ruiz called 'El Terror Rojo', a Spanish translation of this one:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Terror-Spanish-Civil-Revolutionary-ebook/dp/B00JXIIEVC/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Julius+Ruiz&qid=1639696851&sr=8-1

    I guess he produced the Paracuellos book afterwards as a more in depth case study. His other work I know was about the Francoist repression in Madrid after the end of the war, I don't remember noticing any obvious bias in them, he seems like a careful historian.

    The thing I noticed Preston doing was relying on the judgements of the Italian general Mario Roatta, about the battle of Guadalajara and Franco's generalship in general, very likely because they are negative assessments. But Roatta was the guy who wrote the failed Italian plan for Guadalajara, and was also in command when it was badly executed, so not a reliable source. Using him seemed clearly dubious, unless Preston had been deliberately looking for negative views.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I have a book by Julius Ruiz called ‘El Terror Rojo’, a Spanish translation of this one:

    Yes, I’ve read the English version of it. There’s some overlap with the Paracuellos book, but the latter also contains quite a bit of new material (including discussion of the historiography about the Paracuellos massacre, its role in Spanish politics of remembrance etc.), so imo worth reading both.
    I’ve also read his book about the post-war trials of Republicans (Franco’s justice), I agree, seemed like a pretty nuanced and fair study, definitely not just Francoist apologetics.

  194. @Mikel
    @Agathoklis

    Yes, any simplistic mechanism for social phenomena is always bound to fail in some cases. But I don't think that Greece experienced anything like the religious-political indoctrination that pounded Spaniards during 40 long years, along with a deep isolation from the rest of the Western world. Greece ended WWII fully in the camp of the victors, receiving, if I'm not mistaken, Marshall Plan funds from the very beginning. Spain was much more of a pariah state, condemned by the UN, and at the end of the dictatorship people had a big desire to enjoy the kind of life led by other Europeans that had been denied to them.

    With that said, I don't think there's any shortage of hardcore leftists in Greece either.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Greece end WWII with a three year civil war. At least initially, the Leftist rebels had significant popular support but this quickly waned as people grew tired of conflict. Thereafter, the successive Right wing governments censored the arts. I agree, it was probably not as bad as Spain but there was repression. Some of it justified. However, we had a military dictatorship beginning from 1967. It was only after the collapse of that regime in 1974 (mostly due to the debacle in Cyprus), that liberalising forces began and really accelerated in the 1980s. Despite this, and as you say, a strong radical Left, the people have largely remained some of the most socially ‘conservative’ in Europe. Even Leftists tend to be socially conservative e.g. pretending to be radical but really just living like typical petite bourgeois.

    I think you ignore the role of regionalism in Spain causing it to be the outlier in the Med. I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative. Greece does not have regional centripetal forces. Then again, Italy does. So, it is really hard to pinpoint why Spain is such an outlier. I don’t know. Putting all that aside, they still have some attractive women (although this is changing towards Americanised forms of ugliness) which, I suppose, is the most important thing.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Agathoklis


    I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative.
     
    You seem to know Spain very well. I think I know which 2 regions those people may be from and they probably don't much like being called Spaniards (in part for the very same reason they don't even want to admit that they're conservatives, like those backward Castilians).

    Replies: @Yevardian

  195. @sher singh
    @songbird

    Listen Amerimutt, show me one culture where Gods have short hair & cut hair isn't a sign of serfs.
    Cutting someone's hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.

    Replies: @songbird

    show me one culture where Gods have short hair

    Good question. My impression is that the Egyptian gods and pharaohs did not have long hair. Ramesses II’s mummy survived with his hair. Of course, the point is somewhat obfuscated by many depictions of them in headdresses.

    Similarly, in Europe many artifacts exist that seem to depict gods wearing helmets, and so it it difficult to say what their hair was in every case. Various Greek and Roman leaders were deified, though they had short hair.

    Cutting someone’s hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.

    Never heard of this. Sounds like an interesting custom though.

    BTW, I didn’t mean to hint Sikhs show they are crazy by growing their hair long. I don’t think every man who grows his hair long is crazy, though certainly a greater percentage of Westerners who do are.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    All Indo European Gods have long hair.
    Sikhs are not unique but merely a codified version

    Of the universal & primordial Arya culture
    Down to the unshorn hair & weapons worship

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/fflm3c/ares_and_the_scythian_sword_cult/

    Replies: @Yevardian, @songbird

  196. @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Don’t argue with me, but with history books that are sold in book shops.
     
    No, the claim that "a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes" I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.

    “Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions.. as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone”. (When population should be under a million).
     
    No, in 1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

    https://graficos.foro-ciudad.com/evolucion-poblacion/habitantes/1900/2020/1804-barcelona.png

    So I don't know how anyone managed to count the number of prostitutes in that city right after the end of the Spanish Civil War and with WWII in full rage in Europe but even that count of "epidemic" proportions gives us a percentage of only ~4%. And surely Barcelona, a former bastion of the Republic that attracted scores of impoverished immigrants, must have been one of the epicenters of the prostitution phenomenon in post-war Spain. Your own sources dismiss your initial claim.

    There was legal (official sanctioned) prostitution and illegal (unofficial) prostitution in Spain until 1956.
     
    No, once again. Prostitution was never "officially sanctioned" in Francoist Spain. What happened was that a law from the Republic that prohibited prostitution was repealed and the activity itself became alegal because no law made it legal either but procuring prostitutes or profiting from their activity was always prosecuted with more or less zeal. In fact, even today prostitution is not fully legalized in Spain like it is in Germany or the Netherlands.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

    Lol this is pedantic, and I knew when I was writing it that I should write – “Around a million”. So either way, the claim would imply 4% of the Barcelona women at any time. Which is a crazy high number, and actually matches what I originally wrote.

    I’m not commenting whether this is true or not. Just that it matches what I have read in a bookshop. I also remember reading about in Zaragoza though (whereas here only about Barcelona).

    once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist

    Whichever exact phrase, what was written in your post does not match the history book text, which says it was not illegal until 1956, and official brothels were under government supervision. I’m just referring to the text in the history book, as my only information comes from what I read briefly sitting in a bookshop.

    There was actually a legal decision of 1941, in which they reject the prohibition of prostitution. https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:697822/

    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

    I think the book where I saw these claims is “Mujeres caídas: prostitutas legales y clandestinas en el franquismo” (2003), as I read this in a Spanish bookshop.

    I was searching for the last 15 minutes online for this specifically, and I can access for free books by the author’s father (a nuclear scientist). But maybe someone (like German Reader) can access it through the university.

    It was not Paul Preston (searching his books, he writes there was a “massive increase in prostitution under Franco”).

    There is an article Wikipedia Spanish about the author.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirta_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez

    <blockquote I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.

    It’s a very common narrative of the history books and also historians write “prostitution was legal”.

    So my amateur writing that prostitution was legal under Franco, matches the words of professional historians – and I am a person who has not even read history books fully, although the legally registered number is low.

    So if you want to argue about the phrasing of the words (legal or not), then I am not the one you can blame.

    https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fear+and+Progress%3A+Ordinary+Lives+in+Franco%27s+Spain%2C+1939+1975-p-9781405133166

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    I can access for free books by the author’s father (a nuclear scientist).
     
    Actually not the feminist historian's (Mirta Núñez Díaz-Balart) father, but her half-brother that is Fidel Castro's son - Soviet scientist Fidel Castro Díaz-Balart. What a crazy family.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADaz-Balart_family

    , @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Which is a crazy high number
     
    If I wrote that in the USSR "a high proportion of all Russian women were working as" teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of... 4%. Or that my claim about this figure was just based on an estimate that I read in one book about one city, even though it was contradicted by the numbers collected by local people investigating the reality at the time.

    I don't know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Pericles
    @Dmitry

    I wonder how we should evaluate countries like the Netherlands or Germany where prostitution is currently legalized? Or the US, where it's usually not legal but nowadays seems to be largely ignored. Or Sweden, where it's quasi-legalized-but-not in a sort of sex-positive feminist thought-pretzel.

    (All of this in spite of current extremely loose public morals compared to the 1950s.)

    Replies: @German_reader

  197. @songbird
    @sher singh


    show me one culture where Gods have short hair
     
    Good question. My impression is that the Egyptian gods and pharaohs did not have long hair. Ramesses II's mummy survived with his hair. Of course, the point is somewhat obfuscated by many depictions of them in headdresses.

    Similarly, in Europe many artifacts exist that seem to depict gods wearing helmets, and so it it difficult to say what their hair was in every case. Various Greek and Roman leaders were deified, though they had short hair.

    Cutting someone’s hair & blackening their face is an age old sign of shame/public humiliation.
     
    Never heard of this. Sounds like an interesting custom though.

    BTW, I didn't mean to hint Sikhs show they are crazy by growing their hair long. I don't think every man who grows his hair long is crazy, though certainly a greater percentage of Westerners who do are.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    All Indo European Gods have long hair.
    Sikhs are not unique but merely a codified version

    Of the universal & primordial Arya culture
    Down to the unshorn hair & weapons worship

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Ares and the Scythian Sword Cult from IndoEuropean

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Long hair was also the male norm across much of Medieval and 17th Century Europe, what of it?

    Continuing this obsessive reverence for the central asian Aryans which (repeatedly, in waves spanning from the Vedics to Greeks to the British) enslaved and subjugated your dravidian pajeet ancestors? It is an odd Indian fixation.

    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I'm certainly not going to watch it, but presumably its arguing that Atilla's Huns were Indo-Scythian? Because frankly, that doesn't make any sense, as even in their homeland they were replaced (or more likely, a few decisive skirmishes were followed by a mass change in tribal allegiance) by the Sarmatians. The White Huns (Hephthalites) in Asia and 'western' Huns of Atilla are now considered to be entirely unrelated by most scholars, the identity of the latter is debated, but they almost certainly weren't Indo-European.

    Incidentally, Sikhism owes it's existence as a Hindu/Dharmic reaction to Abrahamic religion, it has nothing to do with whatever re-constructed elements are known from the paganism of PIE steppe peoples.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @sher singh

    , @songbird
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Not sure Huns were PIE. Maybe.

    But it seems like they practiced some pretty weird customs. Cranial deformation (albeit was seemingly copied by some Germans). And I have heard that they also defoliated their beards by scarification from knives or burning. (though I am scratching my head over this, isn't Attila described as having a short beard?)

    Replies: @sher singh

  198. @Coconuts
    @Dmitry

    I used to own a copy of this book:

    https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-un-inmenso-prostibulo-mujer-y-moralidad-durante-el-franquismo/9788485031481/1061845

    I gave it away so can't consult it now. It was a reprint of a report from 1943 by a government commission created to look into the issue of prostitution, iirc chaired by General Franco's wife. From what I recall it was a direct and straightforward report, increased prostitution was being caused by hunger, lack of education, the difficult position of the wives of Republican pows and war widows.

    I remember there being a discussion in the report about the legalisation of prostitution, with opinions from church fathers and theologians, Augustine and Aquinas were in favour of legal brothels (like maisons de tolerance in France) because without them they judged that sodomy and bestiality would break out and corrupt the polity. OTOH various later moral theologians in the 17th and 18th centuries attacked these views on the grounds that experience showed that the harm and vice generated by them was too great.

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco regime so in my experience always chooses a negative interpretation of things involving the Nationalists, and a more indulgent one for the left. On a narrow topic I happened to know about in more depth than average it was clear that his line of interpretation always went one way, but imo it is also generally visible if Preston is read at the same time as his US equivalent, the historian Stanley Payne, who tends in the opposite direction.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Mikel, @Dmitry

    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco

    I can’t say much about this topic, as I only read about Spain in the bookshop to improve my Spanish language skill. I don’t really know much about Spanish history, beyond skimming a few pages in the bookshop.

    Still Mikel needs to argue less with me, and more with whatever they write about Spanish history in the bookshops, because I just remember those books.

    What I found interesting about Paul Preston, is that his books are promoted in the book shops in Madrid, as the most authoritative historian, even while they are translated to Spanish from English.

    So when I was in the bookshop in Madrid and trying to read Spanish history books, the most promoted ones can be English authors. And Paul Preston is one of the main books I saw in Madrid bookshops.

    If I remember talking about this in the forum before. Because I remember Paul Preston books are the most promoted 20th century Spanish history books in the Spanish bookshops.

    And I didn’t want to read Spanish books with an English author, so I was searching bookshops in Madrid, trying to find something to buy from a Spanish historian.

    Scary that I about wrote this here on the forum 3,2 years ago. It feels like I wrote it a few hours ago. (Our life and youth is dying so fast).

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/petre-tutea-on-russians/#comment-2598018

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Dmitry

    That sounds awful, I noticed the same thing in Finland and the Baltics a while ago, but I simply regarded Anglo-domination as inevitable they have such a small local language market, and such brief literary histories.
    But in Spain? The source of the second most commonly spoken native tongue on the planet? I know Spain has always been quite intellectually backward compared to any other European country of comparable size and power, but wow, in Madrid? That's really quite grim.

    Although, almost all major bookstores just sell either the usual bestselling trash, alongside extremely similar sections of 'serious' books across dozens of chains. It's invariably more rewarding to go to a 2nd-hand bookstore, not to mention it's usually cheaper anyway. The owners behind the counter who pilot these commerical deathships usually have decent taste too, as opposed to chains where the manager will pride themselves as belonging to some ridiculous 'bookclub', at best..

    Replies: @Dmitry

  199. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

     

    Lol this is pedantic, and I knew when I was writing it that I should write - "Around a million". So either way, the claim would imply 4% of the Barcelona women at any time. Which is a crazy high number, and actually matches what I originally wrote.

    I'm not commenting whether this is true or not. Just that it matches what I have read in a bookshop. I also remember reading about in Zaragoza though (whereas here only about Barcelona).


    once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist
     
    Whichever exact phrase, what was written in your post does not match the history book text, which says it was not illegal until 1956, and official brothels were under government supervision. I'm just referring to the text in the history book, as my only information comes from what I read briefly sitting in a bookshop.

    There was actually a legal decision of 1941, in which they reject the prohibition of prostitution. https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:697822/

    https://i.imgur.com/JNYvaoa.jpg


    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

     

    I think the book where I saw these claims is "Mujeres caídas: prostitutas legales y clandestinas en el franquismo" (2003), as I read this in a Spanish bookshop.

    I was searching for the last 15 minutes online for this specifically, and I can access for free books by the author's father (a nuclear scientist). But maybe someone (like German Reader) can access it through the university.

    It was not Paul Preston (searching his books, he writes there was a "massive increase in prostitution under Franco").

    There is an article Wikipedia Spanish about the author.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirta_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez


    <blockquote I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.
     It's a very common narrative of the history books and also historians write "prostitution was legal".

    So my amateur writing that prostitution was legal under Franco, matches the words of professional historians - and I am a person who has not even read history books fully, although the legally registered number is low.

    So if you want to argue about the phrasing of the words (legal or not), then I am not the one you can blame.

    https://i.imgur.com/JfcEv8d.jpg

    https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fear+and+Progress%3A+Ordinary+Lives+in+Franco%27s+Spain%2C+1939+1975-p-9781405133166

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel, @Pericles

    I can access for free books by the author’s father (a nuclear scientist).

    Actually not the feminist historian’s (Mirta Núñez Díaz-Balart) father, but her half-brother that is Fidel Castro’s son – Soviet scientist Fidel Castro Díaz-Balart. What a crazy family.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADaz-Balart_family

  200. @Agathoklis
    @Mikel

    Greece end WWII with a three year civil war. At least initially, the Leftist rebels had significant popular support but this quickly waned as people grew tired of conflict. Thereafter, the successive Right wing governments censored the arts. I agree, it was probably not as bad as Spain but there was repression. Some of it justified. However, we had a military dictatorship beginning from 1967. It was only after the collapse of that regime in 1974 (mostly due to the debacle in Cyprus), that liberalising forces began and really accelerated in the 1980s. Despite this, and as you say, a strong radical Left, the people have largely remained some of the most socially 'conservative' in Europe. Even Leftists tend to be socially conservative e.g. pretending to be radical but really just living like typical petite bourgeois.

    I think you ignore the role of regionalism in Spain causing it to be the outlier in the Med. I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative. Greece does not have regional centripetal forces. Then again, Italy does. So, it is really hard to pinpoint why Spain is such an outlier. I don't know. Putting all that aside, they still have some attractive women (although this is changing towards Americanised forms of ugliness) which, I suppose, is the most important thing.

    Replies: @Mikel

    I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative.

    You seem to know Spain very well. I think I know which 2 regions those people may be from and they probably don’t much like being called Spaniards (in part for the very same reason they don’t even want to admit that they’re conservatives, like those backward Castilians).

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Mikel

    No need for insinuation, I'm almost certain this refers to Catalonia and the Basque Country. I suppose Spanish history is somewhat unusual within Europe, in that the richest and most socially developed areas of the country have also been also been on the geographic and linguistic periphery in relation to the political centre, Castille.
    Although wasn't the Basque Country the main fighting ground for the Carlist Wars? Granted, they had their own self-interested reasons (F-f... fourist? don't recall the name, autonomy privileges) but Carlism can hardly be described as anything but ultra-conservative, whatever a hodgepodge of ideas it was.

    Perhaps in a timeline where Franco was sufficiently stupid or vainglorious for Hitler to successfully bribe him into the war, we would have seen Spain broken up into its distinct ethnic parts.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Dmitry

  201. @A123
    @Emil Nikola Richard


    My own experience with doctors is 50-50. The last time I went to a physician (~10 years ago) he asked me questions and typed into his laptop and it was obvious he was operating a diagnosis tree program
     
    I have a very good relationship with my long term GP doctor. We have headed off a significant amount of unnecessary work by documenting some personal body chemistry that is well away from standard.

    A 2-year tech and BigPharma computer program would have called for pharmaceutical intervention that would have made things worse. Odds are that error would have been so damaging I would have needed liver transplant surgery.

    How to protect the medical profession from BigPharma is not a straight line connection to years of education. However, actual understanding is the best counter to computer error.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    There is an awful lot of that sort of thing in my experience. The vast majority of the time diagnosis it’s just throwing stock remedies at the wall to see what sticks. Even good doctors are too rushed oftentimes to give a really thorough inquiry.

    My wife has some deep seated thyroid/ adrenal issues and we really have had to do our own research and find a doctor who is willing order in depth blood tests. No joke, a lot of doctors have just jumped to trying to throw anti-depressants at symptoms like “low energy”. It’s such a joke.

    It’s hardly the only similar situation we’ve seen. It’s partly why my desire to “trust the experts” on Covid has been less than enthusiastic.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Barbarossa


    ... we really have had to do our own research and find a doctor who is willing order in depth blood tests. No joke, a lot of doctors have just jumped to trying to throw anti-depressants at symptoms like “low energy”. It’s such a joke.
     
    Both my Doctor and I did research to avoid the BigPharma solution. For me it was a split between D and B enzyme activity.

    The are huge forces pushing towards BigPharma. Manda-vaxx extremism is not Fauci's first offense (1)


    During the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s, Dr. Anthony Fauci discouraged and prevented inexpensive treatments for AIDS and focused exclusively on AZT. He’s doing the same thing today with COVID, focusing on highly profitable vaccines and ignoring potentially safe and effective treatments.
     

    Realizing the potential to earn big profits, Iversen says pharmaceutical companies soon began developing treatments for AIDS.

    The British drug company, Burroughs Wellcome & Co., said its failed cancer drug AZT could be used to treat AIDS.

    Few studies were done, said Iversen, and the long-term side effects were unknown. But in March 1987, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved AZT, claiming the benefits outweighed the risks.

    Celia Farber, who in 1989 reported on the approval of AZT and its potential health risks, wrote at the time:

    “The majority of those in the AIDS-afflicted and medical communities held the drug up as the first breakthrough on AIDS. For better or worse, AZT had been approved faster than any drug in FDA history, and activists considered it a victory. The price paid for the victory, however, was that almost all government drug trials, from then on, focused on AZT — while over 100 other promising drugs were left uninvestigated.”
     

    Adding to the wealth of Pharmaceutical MegaCorporations is a fundamental SJW/DNC value.

    I wish I had known about Fauci's malfeasance sooner. And, I feel very glad I avoided the heart detonating jab..... I was picking "which one" when the tidal wave of truth broke through the censorship wall.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.theburningplatform.com/2021/09/14/fauci-botched-the-aids-epidemic-so-big-pharma-could-profit-hes-doing-it-again-with-covid/

     
    https://i.imgur.com/oSErbH2.jpg

  202. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    they are so innocent and sweet
     
    Lol I know Republic of Ireland.

    If you said they are "responsive, charming, extroverted, and socially intelligent", this is true. I will disagree with "innocent".

    They are the most extroverted, self-confident, socially intelligent, kind of "tropical" friendly people, after maybe Italy.

    But charming is not the same as innocent, although maybe a sign of high levels of charming skills if you can make people (or teacher, police, boss, parents, etc) think you are innocent.

    -

    By the way, I wonder why they developed such a friendly personality there? I was enjoying speculating something like claims Japanese became very polite, because they were without weapons, under control of samurais. Maybe Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills against English.


    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I’m not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.
     
    What it is said by Irish cultural about politics, is "we always support the weaker side", because the mainstream attitude is to view themselves as victims of imperialism.

    So they (I mean mainstream of culture) view themselves like they victims of history, like another African-Americans or Native Indians. It's not really the same as "woke" of the UK, as it doesn't exactly involve as self-flagellation. Still it is something like "woke allies". Whereas in the Kingdom, the woke view is that to admit they were imperialists, and then self-flagellate.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @LatW

    Yes, I was going to say that the Irish developed the charm so they could BS their English overlords.

    As being mostly Irish myself I agree with you about a certain amount of “reservation mentality” relating towards victim-hood. The Irish sure did get the sharp end of a lot of sticks but it doesn’t help to brood about generational woes.

    It always is an amusing side to the “bad Wypipo” mentality… where do the Irish fit in there?! I deserve reparations too! We wuz Kangz ‘o Tara!

  203. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

     

    Lol this is pedantic, and I knew when I was writing it that I should write - "Around a million". So either way, the claim would imply 4% of the Barcelona women at any time. Which is a crazy high number, and actually matches what I originally wrote.

    I'm not commenting whether this is true or not. Just that it matches what I have read in a bookshop. I also remember reading about in Zaragoza though (whereas here only about Barcelona).


    once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist
     
    Whichever exact phrase, what was written in your post does not match the history book text, which says it was not illegal until 1956, and official brothels were under government supervision. I'm just referring to the text in the history book, as my only information comes from what I read briefly sitting in a bookshop.

    There was actually a legal decision of 1941, in which they reject the prohibition of prostitution. https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:697822/

    https://i.imgur.com/JNYvaoa.jpg


    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

     

    I think the book where I saw these claims is "Mujeres caídas: prostitutas legales y clandestinas en el franquismo" (2003), as I read this in a Spanish bookshop.

    I was searching for the last 15 minutes online for this specifically, and I can access for free books by the author's father (a nuclear scientist). But maybe someone (like German Reader) can access it through the university.

    It was not Paul Preston (searching his books, he writes there was a "massive increase in prostitution under Franco").

    There is an article Wikipedia Spanish about the author.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirta_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez


    <blockquote I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.
     It's a very common narrative of the history books and also historians write "prostitution was legal".

    So my amateur writing that prostitution was legal under Franco, matches the words of professional historians - and I am a person who has not even read history books fully, although the legally registered number is low.

    So if you want to argue about the phrasing of the words (legal or not), then I am not the one you can blame.

    https://i.imgur.com/JfcEv8d.jpg

    https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fear+and+Progress%3A+Ordinary+Lives+in+Franco%27s+Spain%2C+1939+1975-p-9781405133166

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel, @Pericles

    Which is a crazy high number

    If I wrote that in the USSR “a high proportion of all Russian women were working as” teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%. Or that my claim about this figure was just based on an estimate that I read in one book about one city, even though it was contradicted by the numbers collected by local people investigating the reality at the time.

    I don’t know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%.
     
    Exclude children and pensioners, and the proportion of young women would be even higher, if this figure was true. And then it's people currently passing through the work, so the total who pass through in a lifetime becomes higher again than currently working women.

    I'm not saying it is a reliable data, or that we infer anything. I'm not saying I'm knowledgeable enough to assess this claim. Just that the source is matches what I had intended in my original post meaning.


    I don’t know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

     

    I'm not defending the claim, just that it matches the narrative in those books.

    Anyway, the interesting thing is in detail the texts I posted, not me or you arguing pedantics.

    That is, the claim that prostitution "increases massively under Franco" (Paul Preston), while there is a moral campaign in the media or culture by the government. That is, such a government censoring morality, and then you might often see divergence at the reality.

    I added this fact just to mention such a divergence. E.g. When the Second Spanish Republic government bans prostitution in 1935, and this ban is removed in 1941 by Franco's government.


    I wrote that in the USSR “a high proportion of all Russian women were working as” teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%
     
    The number of people working as teachers is less than 1% of the total population today.

    So I interpret a claim about 4% of the total female population of a city like Barcelona as prostitutes, sounds very high proportion.

    But for discussing Franco's Spain, I'm sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.

    -

    Offtopic.

    A story I read recently about Franco's regime, was about the "stolen babies", which reminds a bit of the "Yemenite Children Affair" in Israel (in which children of Yemenite immigrants were reported to be dead by hospitals, and given to families for adoption).

    "Known as the lost children of the Franco-era, as many as 300,000 babies are estimated to have been abducted from their mothers under General Francisco Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939-75, and in the decades after."

    "The theft of newborns began in the 1930’s after the Spanish Civil War as an ideological practice, stripping left-wing parents or Franco-opponents of their children as a way of ridding Marxist influence from society. But in the 1950’s, the practice expanded to poor or illegitimate families who were seen as economically or morally deficient, Agence France-Presse reports."

    https://time.com/5321938/spain-stolen-babies-franco-trial/

    Replies: @Mikel

  204. @Barbarossa
    @A123

    There is an awful lot of that sort of thing in my experience. The vast majority of the time diagnosis it's just throwing stock remedies at the wall to see what sticks. Even good doctors are too rushed oftentimes to give a really thorough inquiry.

    My wife has some deep seated thyroid/ adrenal issues and we really have had to do our own research and find a doctor who is willing order in depth blood tests. No joke, a lot of doctors have just jumped to trying to throw anti-depressants at symptoms like "low energy". It's such a joke.

    It's hardly the only similar situation we've seen. It's partly why my desire to "trust the experts" on Covid has been less than enthusiastic.

    Replies: @A123

    … we really have had to do our own research and find a doctor who is willing order in depth blood tests. No joke, a lot of doctors have just jumped to trying to throw anti-depressants at symptoms like “low energy”. It’s such a joke.

    Both my Doctor and I did research to avoid the BigPharma solution. For me it was a split between D and B enzyme activity.

    The are huge forces pushing towards BigPharma. Manda-vaxx extremism is not Fauci’s first offense (1)

    During the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s, Dr. Anthony Fauci discouraged and prevented inexpensive treatments for AIDS and focused exclusively on AZT. He’s doing the same thing today with COVID, focusing on highly profitable vaccines and ignoring potentially safe and effective treatments.

    Realizing the potential to earn big profits, Iversen says pharmaceutical companies soon began developing treatments for AIDS.

    The British drug company, Burroughs Wellcome & Co., said its failed cancer drug AZT could be used to treat AIDS.

    Few studies were done, said Iversen, and the long-term side effects were unknown. But in March 1987, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved AZT, claiming the benefits outweighed the risks.

    Celia Farber, who in 1989 reported on the approval of AZT and its potential health risks, wrote at the time:

    “The majority of those in the AIDS-afflicted and medical communities held the drug up as the first breakthrough on AIDS. For better or worse, AZT had been approved faster than any drug in FDA history, and activists considered it a victory. The price paid for the victory, however, was that almost all government drug trials, from then on, focused on AZT — while over 100 other promising drugs were left uninvestigated.”

    Adding to the wealth of Pharmaceutical MegaCorporations is a fundamental SJW/DNC value.

    I wish I had known about Fauci’s malfeasance sooner. And, I feel very glad I avoided the heart detonating jab….. I was picking “which one” when the tidal wave of truth broke through the censorship wall.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.theburningplatform.com/2021/09/14/fauci-botched-the-aids-epidemic-so-big-pharma-could-profit-hes-doing-it-again-with-covid/

     

  205. @songbird
    @AP

    Where are the Indians in Haiti?


    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England
     
    I'm not sure that this is correct. New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.

    But, leave it aside, as my contention is that the Indians on both sides were primarily huntergatherers. Some in Quebec being entirely huntergatherers, with zero agriculture, others sowing snatch crops, while those in New England only sowed snatch crops, meaning that they did not stay in one place the whole year, while looking after their fields, but fished or hunted deer and gathered nuts.

    It seems obvious that, according to the limits of this lifestyle, there would be many more hunter-gatherers in Quebec (much larger) than in (much smaller) New England. I'll also add that disease probably ravaged agricultural communities more, due to larger population sizes.

    And I think you would expect that there would be a little more mixing where there was less farming and more hunter-gathering, due to women being more amendable to living in agricultural communities than in icy forests, such as in the rather large Boreal Forest part of Quebec. That is why Quebecois often might be about 1% Indian, though the percentage for Mayflower New Englanders would be less.

    Pocahontas (English colony, though not from NE) actually has living descendants today, though she did not live a long time, due to diseases that she was not evolved for.
    _____
    Anyway, I don't think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be. Probably it would take extracting DNA from a lot of old bones (not something Indians are amendable to) and complicated modeling to get to something close to the real number, if it is even possible.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America. To start with, I think your attitude is too flippant, and that this flippancy comes from your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity (and perhaps no experience of an America with one), but more interest in elevating the newcomer.

    Meanwhile, though I don't come of Protestant stock, or anything close to Mayflower descent, I have some older, though not very old roots in America. However, half of my family was well-integrated into a traditional American cultural identity, which took place while the WASPs were still in ascendancy, and where there was little room for political correctness. During this time, mainstream historians still laughed at Sacagawea and Americans (there was then such a cohesive identity of closely-related Euros) were too prideful to be susceptible to these attacks meant to elevate not Indians, but the latest invader.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come? Would it have come, even if it was like Mexico? I'm not sure. Would you have miscegenated with an Squaw and given your half-breed daughters over to fully Indian males? Have you miscegenated?

    The English conquered a continent. What they did was hardly unique, except by scale. Japan experienced over 70% population replacement, after 150 AD. If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other. Even the Inuit committed their own genocide. I condemn neither, though they were certainly more barbaric peoples than colonial Euros, who gave them some measure of peace.

    Replies: @AP

    Where are the Indians in Haiti?

    The pre-Columbian population in Haiti was tiny – in couple 10,000s, per genetic research. At least half probably died of disease.

    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England

    New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.

    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State, which has lots of arable land and was once the heartland of the large Iroquois confederacy.

    Anyway, I don’t think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be.

    Sure, but a discrepancy of that magnitude makes it hard to conclude that the French Catholics in Quebec didn’t treat the natives a lot better than did the Calvinist Puritans.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America.

    French and Russians were fairly benign, Spaniards were on balance good (anything bad done by then was more than compensated for by the destruction of the evil demon-worshipping Aztec Empire), English were brutal and bad to the natives. That they then built a successful and prosperous society for themselves (and those who joined them) – more so than did the others in North America – speaks to the success of English governance and customs for their own people.

    your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity

    I’d like America to remain as it is (well, until recently, but it still has a long way to fall), because it is a good place to live and my kids and grandkids will be here.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come?

    They would have stayed in Western Europe. Some of them did.

    Ukrainians who moved to Paraguay became rich farmers and landowners though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Paraguay

    If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.

    I condemn evil where I see it. Genocide is evil. I wouldn’t have existed if Hitler hadn’t invaded the USSR, an invasion that involved tens of millions of deaths.. Should I be thankful for that, as I should be thankful for Calvinists for wiping out much of a continent?

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other.

    I don’t pretend they were better, of course. Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State
     
    Methinks you would have to add New England to New York and more to get to the area of Quebec.

    We are talking about slash and burn agriculture here, and probably without the slash, due to lack of metallurgy. Have you ever tried to cut down an oak tree with a stone axe? (I'm sure that it can't be done.)

    Better comparison of resources would not be assumed quantification of agricultural potential for Indians, but rather how many deer and moose in the woods, fish in the rivers, nuts from the trees, berries on the bushes? How many beaver pelts to be traded? And I would suppose that Quebec would clearly be the winner here.

    Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict.
     
    Did they practice ritual torture to the death and cannibalism of their captives?

    Should I be thankful for that, as I should be thankful for Calvinists for wiping out much of a continent?
     
    i don't get your point here at all. If you are lamenting the loss of culture, then I have read American Indian myths, and you can too. They were super-primitive. Frankly, a lot of their stories stink, and some of the more meritorious probably have dubious origin. The most interesting cultures were clearly wiped out by the Spanish, not the English. They gambled over their gold artifacts and melted them down into bullion, instead of preserving them. They destroyed a lot of their buildings and reused the stone. It is said that the Inca, used to have some sort of tower, and that it was filled to the top with their dead bodies, after they made a last ditch defense.

    There are all sorts of hairy tales about the Spanish cutting people's hands off, enslaving them, massacring them, and forcing them into death mines. There were many native rebellions against the Spanish. I don't think you have a leg to stand on historically.

    Nor with the French. The English had Indian allies in the French and Indian war. Surely, they wouldn't have teamed up with the English, if they thought them so evil? Or the English would have neatly disposed of those in Canada, when they won.

    I condemn evil where I see it.
     
    I fail to see the virtue int feeling sanctimonious about something that happened 400 years ago, and which you have fantastically benefited from.

    True ethics is consequentialism. What good comes from denouncing them now? And trying to compare them? Clearly, they are all lumped together as "white", and it is being used as a justification to invade both America and Europe, and for many other kinds of evil.

    Replies: @AP

  206. @German_reader
    @Yevardian


    The Kanun
     
    I saw a documentary about this years ago, about men who had to go into hiding for decades because of blood feuds which had already killed several people on both sides. Really depressing. I'd assumed though it was limited to remote rural areas, bit disturbing that it seems to be more widespread.

    Anyway, Serbians should be grateful Albanians exist, simply so they’re not the biggest niggers of Europe.
     
    I think both are easily topped by gypsies.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    I think both are easily topped by gypsies.

    Undoubtedly. NPR liberals will sometimes caterwaul about “the poor marginalized Roma” and how the word gypsy is racist, etc. I don’t hear boo about no po’ Albanians or Serbs.

    That conclusively proves that gypsies are the niggers of Europe and Albanians and Serbs are just poor whites.

  207. @Max Demian
    @AP


    practicing gay bishops
     
    They still need to practice?

    Might not brazenly buggering be more apt?[1]

    Now, to segue from this tongue-in-cheek* interlude to offer an entirely earnest contribution that is related, if only tangentially, to the topic addressed by the former.

    (*But not-- decidedly, emphatically, unequivocally not-- tongue-in {other anatomical parts}...)

    The categorical, absolute, doctrinaire assertions that homoeroticism is without exception both innate as well as immutable; that it is equivalent to normative heterosexuality (much less to sacred matrimony[2]); and the conflation (both witting as well as unwitting) of involuntary feelings with voluntary behaviors (as well as the conflation of specific, objectively unwholesome acts with homoeroticism, or even homoerotic activity, per se[3]). These are all manifestly false and objectively harmful.

    @Songbird:


    ...beach bods...pretty girls...Long Beach...
     
    Anyone else reminded of the Rodney Dangerfield line from the Jacuzzi scene in the 1986 blockbuster Back to School,
    "Maybe you girls can help me straighten out my Longfellow."?

    To again segue from the jocular and raunchy to the earnest and chaste, I will offer another contention. This one, though, sure to be less popular, accepted or even palatable to the present audience than the previous.

    The Bikini vs. the Burka.

    This should be a false dichotomy. Between these opposite extremes, lies a vast expanse of moderation. If forced to choose one or the other, however, I would aver that the burka would be the lesser evil. Less unwholesome and socially corrosive than the bikini.

    Dfordoom would almost certainly disagree. Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the redoubtable DFD? His last last posted comment dates to August and his blog has disappeared.

    Numbered notes, for some elaboration and elucidation, below break.
    [1] It might incidentally be noted here that to infer from either this or any of my past comments evidence of categorical, unqualified condemnation of homoeroticism, per se on my part would be unfounded. A review of the relevant record would reveal that my criticism, and condemnations and any other attacks I have made within the area-in-question have been directed, rather clearly, emphatically, consistently and often painstakingly, against specific acts, behaviors, positions, views, attitudes, ideologies and movements. The paragraph that immediately follows the launching point for this note should serve as a prime illustration of the very point that the latter attempts to make.

    [2] Upon seeing a word such as sacred in any context such as this, it would seem that most people assume the writer or speaker is arguing from a specifically religious perspective. While such an assumption would generally have at least a high likelihood of being accurate, it need not be. Note that out of a total of seven definitions given for sacred in the first entry for the word at Dictionary [dot] com, a full four (the final four) have no inherent religious or other supernatural meaning or connotations.

    [3] An example of a homoerotic ideal that is at least considerably less unwholesome than the prevailing one, can be found at man2manalliance [dot] org. (GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    Replies: @songbird, @A123, @Barbarossa

    dfordoom seems to have checked out of Unz following the demise of AE’s blog, since he seemed to have some crankiness about Karlin.

    I was checking into his personal blog a bit myself, and notice that it had been suddenly memory holed. I’ve wondered myself how he’s doing Down Under. Hopefully he’s doing okay.

    • Thanks: Max Demian
  208. @Dmitry
    @LatW


    they are so innocent and sweet
     
    Lol I know Republic of Ireland.

    If you said they are "responsive, charming, extroverted, and socially intelligent", this is true. I will disagree with "innocent".

    They are the most extroverted, self-confident, socially intelligent, kind of "tropical" friendly people, after maybe Italy.

    But charming is not the same as innocent, although maybe a sign of high levels of charming skills if you can make people (or teacher, police, boss, parents, etc) think you are innocent.

    -

    By the way, I wonder why they developed such a friendly personality there? I was enjoying speculating something like claims Japanese became very polite, because they were without weapons, under control of samurais. Maybe Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills against English.


    Their wokeness is also quite recent, I’m not sure they had all the cray that the Dutch and Germans started having back in the 1980s.
     
    What it is said by Irish cultural about politics, is "we always support the weaker side", because the mainstream attitude is to view themselves as victims of imperialism.

    So they (I mean mainstream of culture) view themselves like they victims of history, like another African-Americans or Native Indians. It's not really the same as "woke" of the UK, as it doesn't exactly involve as self-flagellation. Still it is something like "woke allies". Whereas in the Kingdom, the woke view is that to admit they were imperialists, and then self-flagellate.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @LatW

    Maybe the Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills with English

    Well, they did have weapons later on. But it’s not a bad guess. They are verbally quite astute. However, this does not explain why other peoples that were subjected to tyranny did not develop this light heartedness and charitability (such as our own people).

    And you’re making a similar point as I tried to make. It seems their openness to the world comes from the feeling of charity (the Christian Caritas). Whereas certain other Western types go about it with a kind of a self-righteous fanaticism which seems to be more about status and the desire to control others and to impose their will on others.

    Of course, having wokeness arise from the victim narrative is not all that flattering… those things should be separated.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LatW


    feeling of charity (the Christian Caritas)
     
    Ireland is such a strong example to me, that in the culture, people can really seem trained to be socially intelligent, talkative and responsive.

    Because there is really a lot of cultural divergence in this area. If you compare London and Dublin, and in Dublin there is immediate culture shock that the people have some kind of higher responsiveness or engagement level setting on.

    Do you think more extraverted, social people, people are actually nicer though? My intuition is the other way round.

    If you can give an appearance of being nice, then it means less pressure to actually be nice. It doesn't cost anything to seem nice. If you can be charming with the teacher, you don't need to do as much homework.

    Not that I tested. But if you were homeless in Dublin, I'm not sure you should bet people on average would really help you more than in London. But you should bet that in Dublin, most people will seem more like they want to help you.


    tyranny did not develop this light heartedness.
     
    And in Finland, the opposite.

    Maybe Catholicism, rather than occupation, has made people more charming in Ireland? Catholics have some of the friendliest nationalities, like Philippines, Brazilian and Mexican.

    But then... in France or Austria, or a lot of Germany, there is a lot of Catholic history, and not so much superficial charm to strangers. I guess with this cultural discussion, usually there seem as many counter-examples than correlations.

    Replies: @LatW

    , @songbird
    @LatW


    Well, they did have weapons later on.
     
    Interestingly, some believe that the shillelagh was more or less a lineal (or shall I say collateral) descendant of one of the weapons found at the Tollense Valley Battlefield.

    According to this theory, during the Bronze Age, it was only the elite who used bronze. The peasants went to battle with staves which is indicated by the type of blows found on many skulls. And so the idea is that even though the native Irish elite were disarmed and dispossessed, Irish peasants kept their own traditional fighting techniques.

    Of course, in the High and Late Middle Ages, I am sure they used pole-axes or something, but maybe they kept staves for recreational use.
  209. @A123
    How many people have caught the Fed fibbing about U.S. inflation?

    Conservative Treehouse helpfully added Actual 2021 inflation (green) to a Fed chart where they maliciously omitted it: (1)

     
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Fed-Graph-2.jpg


    The 6.8% inflation rate is just about where the dot in the “j” of the word projection would be located. That’s where we are currently.
     
    The SJW Elites with excess disposable income see this as a minor inconvenience. They genuinely do not understand the consequences to blue collar workers surviving paycheck-to-paycheck. Massive increases in gasoline price directly hit every personal fuel stop. Worse yet, every truck delivered product is going up to cover transportation costs.

    The DNC has unleashed Carter-flation 2.0. In the 80's, the pro-MegaCorporation GOP(e) could not exploit that fully. Now, the MAGA GOP is ready to be the genuine Workers Party. All it will take is a few "honest vote counts" to render the Democrats into a permanent minority party.

    The alternative is civil disorder, or even Civil War. Main Street America is not willing to tolerate another stolen election.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇
    _____________________

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/12/15/fed-chairman-jerome-powells-presser-should-alarm-everyone-on-main-street/

    Replies: @Beckow

    …DNC has unleashed Carter-flation 2.0…

    Inflation always undermines the existing power structure. For elite it is as bad as losing a war. They ruling liberals didn’t unleash it willingly, by 2021 they had no better alternative. The cumulative debts cannot be paid back – defaults or a jubilee could trigger a catastrophic chain reaction. The only alternative was to use inflation to devalue debts gradually – it buys time.

    The reason the Fed fibs about it is that they want the inflation benefits without the bad publicity. It usually doesn’t work. This will get ugly. If MAGA was allowed to implement its full program in 2017-20 – or if Trump had more willpower to push it through – it could have been avoided: closed borders, domestic reindustrialization, growing economy, higher incomes – together that would have stabilized the system.

    But it didn’t happen and by 2025 things could be too decrepit to try again.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Beckow

    As I repeatedly point out, it was the U.S. system not the willpower of an individual.

    There was no visible alternative to achieve the outcome you, I, and others wanted. At that time the only way to beat the system would have been overthrowing the Constitution and declaring himself Emperor Triumphus I.

     
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IBnLiD73D0Y/maxresdefault.jpg
     

    While emotionally appealing to some, such hopes were naive & highly impractical. Such a rebellion would almost certainly have failed.
    ___

    The U.S. people, suffering under Not-The-President Biden's illegitimate regime, are growing in willpower. Openly rigging an election worked once, but will not be tolerated again. Also, the GOP has genuinely adopted MAGA. There will be a MAGA House for Appropriations & (hopefully) Senate for Confirmations.

    The key to escaping the inflation trap is making sufficient physical goods in the U.S. Despite SJW Sabotage, energy independence will be available for the next administration. If the President, Senate, and House together have the will, it is not too late. If only one has the willpower, we are probably looking at a Civil War and an end to the Constitution as it currently exists.
    ___

    There is one thing that is guaranteed to produce failure. Joining team #NeverTrump because Trump failed to achieve the unachievable in his 1st Term. Irrational low-IQ yahoos want Biden to have 8 years in puppet office & permanent DNC rule. Why? Because the impossible was impossible. That hurt their feelings. One cannot use logic to dissuade people from that magnitude of emotion based SJW irrationality.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  210. I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%.

    Exclude children and pensioners, and the proportion of young women would be even higher, if this figure was true. And then it’s people currently passing through the work, so the total who pass through in a lifetime becomes higher again than currently working women.

    I’m not saying it is a reliable data, or that we infer anything. I’m not saying I’m knowledgeable enough to assess this claim. Just that the source is matches what I had intended in my original post meaning.

    I don’t know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

    I’m not defending the claim, just that it matches the narrative in those books.

    Anyway, the interesting thing is in detail the texts I posted, not me or you arguing pedantics.

    That is, the claim that prostitution “increases massively under Franco” (Paul Preston), while there is a moral campaign in the media or culture by the government. That is, such a government censoring morality, etc, and then you might often see divergence at the reality.

    I added this fact just to mention such a divergence, which I have a bias to associate with this kind of government.

    I wrote that in the USSR “a high proportion of all Russian women were working as” teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%

    The number of people working as teachers is less than 1% of the total population today.

    So I interpret a claim about 4% of the total female population of a city like Barcelona as prostitutes, sounds very high proportion.

    But for discussing Franco’s Spain, I’m sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.

    Offtopic.

    A story I read recently about Franco’s regime, was about the “stolen babies”, which reminds a bit of the “Yemenite Children Affair” in Israel (in which children of Yemenite immigrants were reported to be dead by hospitals, and given to families for adoption).

    “Known as the lost children of the Franco-era, as many as 300,000 babies are estimated to have been abducted from their mothers under General Francisco Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939-75, and in the decades after.”

    “The theft of newborns began in the 1930’s after the Spanish Civil War as an ideological practice, stripping left-wing parents or Franco-opponents of their children as a way of ridding Marxist influence from society. But in the 1950’s, the practice expanded to poor or illegitimate families who were seen as economically or morally deficient, Agence France-Presse reports.”

    https://time.com/5321938/spain-stolen-babies-franco-trial/

  211. @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    Which is a crazy high number
     
    If I wrote that in the USSR "a high proportion of all Russian women were working as" teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of... 4%. Or that my claim about this figure was just based on an estimate that I read in one book about one city, even though it was contradicted by the numbers collected by local people investigating the reality at the time.

    I don't know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%.

    Exclude children and pensioners, and the proportion of young women would be even higher, if this figure was true. And then it’s people currently passing through the work, so the total who pass through in a lifetime becomes higher again than currently working women.

    I’m not saying it is a reliable data, or that we infer anything. I’m not saying I’m knowledgeable enough to assess this claim. Just that the source is matches what I had intended in my original post meaning.

    I don’t know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

    I’m not defending the claim, just that it matches the narrative in those books.

    Anyway, the interesting thing is in detail the texts I posted, not me or you arguing pedantics.

    That is, the claim that prostitution “increases massively under Franco” (Paul Preston), while there is a moral campaign in the media or culture by the government. That is, such a government censoring morality, and then you might often see divergence at the reality.

    I added this fact just to mention such a divergence. E.g. When the Second Spanish Republic government bans prostitution in 1935, and this ban is removed in 1941 by Franco’s government.

    I wrote that in the USSR “a high proportion of all Russian women were working as” teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%

    The number of people working as teachers is less than 1% of the total population today.

    So I interpret a claim about 4% of the total female population of a city like Barcelona as prostitutes, sounds very high proportion.

    But for discussing Franco’s Spain, I’m sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.

    Offtopic.

    A story I read recently about Franco’s regime, was about the “stolen babies”, which reminds a bit of the “Yemenite Children Affair” in Israel (in which children of Yemenite immigrants were reported to be dead by hospitals, and given to families for adoption).

    “Known as the lost children of the Franco-era, as many as 300,000 babies are estimated to have been abducted from their mothers under General Francisco Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939-75, and in the decades after.”

    “The theft of newborns began in the 1930’s after the Spanish Civil War as an ideological practice, stripping left-wing parents or Franco-opponents of their children as a way of ridding Marxist influence from society. But in the 1950’s, the practice expanded to poor or illegitimate families who were seen as economically or morally deficient, Agence France-Presse reports.”

    https://time.com/5321938/spain-stolen-babies-franco-trial/

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Dmitry


    But for discussing Franco’s Spain, I’m sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.
     
    Your original claim, taken literally, was pretty absurd, whether you want to realize it or not. But I wouldn't say that living conditions in post-war Spain is an uninteresting topic. The pretty long Amazon preview of the book mentioned by Coconuts was very engaging for me and I'd like to read the whole report at some point.

    However, the amount of prostitution in the postwar years plays no role at all in how Spaniards became woker than other Europeans. Even my parents (one already deceased) were probably too young to learn much about the matter and there were much more important and stark inconsistencies in Franco's moral standards than an ambiguous treatment of prostitution in those initial years. In general, Spaniards didn't grow tired of Franco because he was more or less inconsistent. They grew tired of the whole thing because the National-Catholicism doctrine was old, outdated, repressive, boring as hell and culturally had set them decades back from their European peers, even the poorer ones.

  212. @LatW
    @Dmitry


    Maybe the Irish became the most friendly people, because of not having weapons, and needing to use charm skills with English
     
    Well, they did have weapons later on. But it's not a bad guess. They are verbally quite astute. However, this does not explain why other peoples that were subjected to tyranny did not develop this light heartedness and charitability (such as our own people).

    And you're making a similar point as I tried to make. It seems their openness to the world comes from the feeling of charity (the Christian Caritas). Whereas certain other Western types go about it with a kind of a self-righteous fanaticism which seems to be more about status and the desire to control others and to impose their will on others.

    Of course, having wokeness arise from the victim narrative is not all that flattering... those things should be separated.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird

    feeling of charity (the Christian Caritas)

    Ireland is such a strong example to me, that in the culture, people can really seem trained to be socially intelligent, talkative and responsive.

    Because there is really a lot of cultural divergence in this area. If you compare London and Dublin, and in Dublin there is immediate culture shock that the people have some kind of higher responsiveness or engagement level setting on.

    Do you think more extraverted, social people, people are actually nicer though? My intuition is the other way round.

    If you can give an appearance of being nice, then it means less pressure to actually be nice. It doesn’t cost anything to seem nice. If you can be charming with the teacher, you don’t need to do as much homework.

    Not that I tested. But if you were homeless in Dublin, I’m not sure you should bet people on average would really help you more than in London. But you should bet that in Dublin, most people will seem more like they want to help you.

    tyranny did not develop this light heartedness.

    And in Finland, the opposite.

    Maybe Catholicism, rather than occupation, has made people more charming in Ireland? Catholics have some of the friendliest nationalities, like Philippines, Brazilian and Mexican.

    But then… in France or Austria, or a lot of Germany, there is a lot of Catholic history, and not so much superficial charm to strangers. I guess with this cultural discussion, usually there seem as many counter-examples than correlations.

    • Replies: @LatW
    @Dmitry


    If you compare London and Dublin, and in Dublin there is an immediate culture shock that the people have some kind of higher responsiveness
     
    There is, of course, more of a big city or almost imperial vibe in London as opposed to Dublin. But even in London people are outwardly nicer than in Eastern Europe. The British are typically very polite and outwardly friendly but then they go about their lives and are quite individualistic. Which is ok once you're accultured to it and act accordingly. Whereas the Irish are just altogether warmer, at least in Dublin. Maybe in Western Ireland they're a bit more colder? There is a very rugged sea faring culture on that side.


    Do you think extroverted, social people are actually nicer though?
     
    I've recently started believing that, yes. After Covid. Maybe the more extroverted cultures, when problems hit, tend to solve them on a more private level whereas the more colder cultures tend to refer to institutions? Which in this day and age... if you ask me, the first option might actually be better. But who knows.

    When I was about your age and younger, extroverts used to annoy the heck out of me. I can totally see how you enjoy solitude. Now I appreciate them more. I have a Latin acquaintance who really likes helping me out, without being asked, and who started calling me "a friend" after, like, 3 months of communicating and she was always the one who sought out the friendship first. And it turned out that she was more charitable than all the introverts. But this is ofc subjective. At some point our connection started really showing (I'm half Latgalian/culturally Catholic despite everything). And sometimes it can go even deeper with romantic relationships and can actually determine who is born and who connects with who. Although I still need a lot of alone time and typically do not long to chit chat with strangers like the extroverts do. In my culture we don't show emotions either, but I actually find it more human that Slavic women, for instance, show more emotions.

    Btw, in this context I was thinking recently of Max Korzh whom we talked about in the other thread. He's all about that somewhat collectivist culture of many patsans together and everyone huddling together. Back in the day it would've seemed kind of off-putting to me but now that I can view it from a distance it's actually quite sweet. You always have someone to rely on, like a family. It would probably be too tight for me but I definitely see the benefits. It also makes it obvious how and why the Slavic expansion happened.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  213. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    1940 the population of Barcelona was over a million:

     

    Lol this is pedantic, and I knew when I was writing it that I should write - "Around a million". So either way, the claim would imply 4% of the Barcelona women at any time. Which is a crazy high number, and actually matches what I originally wrote.

    I'm not commenting whether this is true or not. Just that it matches what I have read in a bookshop. I also remember reading about in Zaragoza though (whereas here only about Barcelona).


    once again. Prostitution was never “officially sanctioned” in Francoist
     
    Whichever exact phrase, what was written in your post does not match the history book text, which says it was not illegal until 1956, and official brothels were under government supervision. I'm just referring to the text in the history book, as my only information comes from what I read briefly sitting in a bookshop.

    There was actually a legal decision of 1941, in which they reject the prohibition of prostitution. https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:697822/

    https://i.imgur.com/JNYvaoa.jpg


    No, the claim that “a high proportion of all Spanish women were working as prostitutes

     

    I think the book where I saw these claims is "Mujeres caídas: prostitutas legales y clandestinas en el franquismo" (2003), as I read this in a Spanish bookshop.

    I was searching for the last 15 minutes online for this specifically, and I can access for free books by the author's father (a nuclear scientist). But maybe someone (like German Reader) can access it through the university.

    It was not Paul Preston (searching his books, he writes there was a "massive increase in prostitution under Franco").

    There is an article Wikipedia Spanish about the author.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirta_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez


    <blockquote I need to argue with you, until you provide some credible source for that assertion.
     It's a very common narrative of the history books and also historians write "prostitution was legal".

    So my amateur writing that prostitution was legal under Franco, matches the words of professional historians - and I am a person who has not even read history books fully, although the legally registered number is low.

    So if you want to argue about the phrasing of the words (legal or not), then I am not the one you can blame.

    https://i.imgur.com/JfcEv8d.jpg

    https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fear+and+Progress%3A+Ordinary+Lives+in+Franco%27s+Spain%2C+1939+1975-p-9781405133166

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikel, @Pericles

    I wonder how we should evaluate countries like the Netherlands or Germany where prostitution is currently legalized? Or the US, where it’s usually not legal but nowadays seems to be largely ignored. Or Sweden, where it’s quasi-legalized-but-not in a sort of sex-positive feminist thought-pretzel.

    (All of this in spite of current extremely loose public morals compared to the 1950s.)

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Pericles


    I wonder how we should evaluate countries like the Netherlands or Germany where prostitution is currently legalized?
     
    Obviously these are pretty degenerate societies (and I'm not in favour of Germany's prostitution laws, and the idea that "sex work" should be seen as a job like any other). Prostitution is however something done mostly by women from abroad.
    Germany has about 40 000 officially registered prostitutes:
    https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2020/07/PD20_286_228.html

    Only about 7700 have German citizenship...whereas a whopping 14 300 (35%) have Romanian citizenship. Bulgaria (11%) and Hungary (8%) are also well-represented (I wonder if there's some gypsy factor involved here).
  214. From – https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044305
    … In the UK, the wind has ended again..
    At the moment, the huge British fields of wind turbines in the North Sea are giving out:
    Wind 0.66GW of 15GW installed capacity. This is only 1.74% of the total electricity produced in the country.
    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @Mike_from_Russia

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iVmJRAyJVY&list=UUnH6QL7JCDRp9HBXtm4mqxg

    Annalena did it again.

    Replies: @Mike_from_Russia

  215. @Mike_from_Russia
    From - https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1044305
    ... In the UK, the wind has ended again..
    At the moment, the huge British fields of wind turbines in the North Sea are giving out:
    Wind 0.66GW of 15GW installed capacity. This is only 1.74% of the total electricity produced in the country.
    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Replies: @Aedib

    Annalena did it again.

    • Replies: @Mike_from_Russia
    @Aedib

    Turn green until you're blue in the face!!!!
    With love, your Gazprom.

  216. @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    All Indo European Gods have long hair.
    Sikhs are not unique but merely a codified version

    Of the universal & primordial Arya culture
    Down to the unshorn hair & weapons worship

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/fflm3c/ares_and_the_scythian_sword_cult/

    Replies: @Yevardian, @songbird

    Long hair was also the male norm across much of Medieval and 17th Century Europe, what of it?

    Continuing this obsessive reverence for the central asian Aryans which (repeatedly, in waves spanning from the Vedics to Greeks to the British) enslaved and subjugated your dravidian pajeet ancestors? It is an odd Indian fixation.

    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I’m certainly not going to watch it, but presumably its arguing that Atilla’s Huns were Indo-Scythian? Because frankly, that doesn’t make any sense, as even in their homeland they were replaced (or more likely, a few decisive skirmishes were followed by a mass change in tribal allegiance) by the Sarmatians. The White Huns (Hephthalites) in Asia and ‘western’ Huns of Atilla are now considered to be entirely unrelated by most scholars, the identity of the latter is debated, but they almost certainly weren’t Indo-European.

    Incidentally, Sikhism owes it’s existence as a Hindu/Dharmic reaction to Abrahamic religion, it has nothing to do with whatever re-constructed elements are known from the paganism of PIE steppe peoples.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Yevardian


    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I’m certainly not going to watch it
     
    This is one of my great pet peeves. As we move toward a semi-post-literate culture more and more content is in video form. Oftentimes I'll be looking up some headline and I'll have to pick through several video reports before I finally find a print write up. I can't be bothered to watch some stupid talking head deliver the info, plus I think that video presentation adds a layer of distraction which makes the actual information less easily digestible. It also makes it easier to inject emotion, which can be manipulative. Similarly, the nightly news is not informative, it is entertainment first and foremost. This seems true with any visual medium.

    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action. I mean, cripes! This IS why language was developed; as a mode of accurately conveying meaning!

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    , @sher singh
    @Yevardian

    Armenian, you haven't given your allotment of concubines to Negros this month.
    I'm a Jatt we arrived in the sub-con way later, and I know Panjabis bully you wherever you are..

    I haven't watched the video, and also we're patrilineal. You give women to niggers, we carry sword. :shrug:
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/640459736919048202/921398206187855963/j7f1jrz9wbl41.png

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  217. DUESSELDORF/FRANKFURT, Dec 16 (Reuters) – The German energy regulator’s eagerly-awaited decision on fully certifying the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline won’t come in the first half of next year, it said on Thursday, in a setback for the Russian project that has sparked global political tensions.

    “There will be no decisions in the first half (of 2022),” Bundesnetzagentur (BNetzA) President Jochen Homann said with regard to the certification process.

    The pipeline was built to carry Russian gas directly to Germany, bypassing Ukraine – currently a major transit route for Russian supplies. It has been completed for months but it remains unclear when deliveries will start.

    Russia’s foreign ministry last week said it hoped the Gazprom-led (GAZP.MM) pipeline would receive its certification in the spring, RIA news agency reported.

    Pressure on the project has intensified in recent weeks in light of diplomatic tensions between Moscow and western nations, mainly triggered by fears of a possible Russian attack on Ukraine. read more

    The European Union, which depends on Russia for gas, has warned of “unprecedented measures” against the country if it shows further aggression towards Ukraine, which could include sanctions on the pipeline. read more

    BNetzA said the operating company of Nord Stream 2 had started the process of setting up a subsidiary in Germany as required under German law.

    It had halted its certification process – originally due to run until Jan. 8 – last month, pending the creation of the German subsidiary to comply with the law.

    This creation has been initiated by Nord Stream 2, Homann said, adding that the BNetzA’s review period would start again the moment Nord Stream AG delivered the required documents.

    “This is not in our hands. Nord Stream AG alone is making that decision,” he said.

    Once the BNetzA has made a decision it will go to the European Union, which will then have another two months to review it, a period that can be extended by a further two months if needed.

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/german-regulator-says-nord-stream-2-launch-not-expected-h1-2022-2021-12-16/

  218. @Mikel
    @Agathoklis


    I know Spaniards from the regions that will not identify with conservatism because they see it as being closely tied to Castille even though they tend to be conservative.
     
    You seem to know Spain very well. I think I know which 2 regions those people may be from and they probably don't much like being called Spaniards (in part for the very same reason they don't even want to admit that they're conservatives, like those backward Castilians).

    Replies: @Yevardian

    No need for insinuation, I’m almost certain this refers to Catalonia and the Basque Country. I suppose Spanish history is somewhat unusual within Europe, in that the richest and most socially developed areas of the country have also been also been on the geographic and linguistic periphery in relation to the political centre, Castille.
    Although wasn’t the Basque Country the main fighting ground for the Carlist Wars? Granted, they had their own self-interested reasons (F-f… fourist? don’t recall the name, autonomy privileges) but Carlism can hardly be described as anything but ultra-conservative, whatever a hodgepodge of ideas it was.

    Perhaps in a timeline where Franco was sufficiently stupid or vainglorious for Hitler to successfully bribe him into the war, we would have seen Spain broken up into its distinct ethnic parts.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @Yevardian


    Although wasn’t the Basque Country the main fighting ground for the Carlist Wars?
     
    Yes. Basques in those wars were fighting both for their regional privileges and for a more traditionalist/reactionary king in Spain.

    But several things happened at the end of the 19th century that transformed the relationship of Basques with Spain forever: the defeat in the Carlists wars, the loss of the last Spanish colonies, that definitely turned Spain into a European backwater and the massive influx of poor Spanish immigrants to the Basque industrial towns, that created a big cultural shock in the autochthonous population. Francoist repression and the intensification of immigration in the post-war years only exacerbated the problem.

    The linguistic and ethnic divide had always been there but it didn't become much of a problem until the 19th century.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    richest and most socially developed areas of the country have also been also been on the geographic and linguistic periphery
     
    Well in the Russian Empire in 19th century, the most socially developed nationalities were Estonians, Germans, Finns, Poles. Latvians.

    Also in the United Kingdom, if you think about Edinburgh - which is one of the main intellectual and culture center of modern European history. But Edinburgh in that time was not occupied, but part of a voluntary unified Kingdom with London.

    It's funny to compare Edinburgh and Dublin, where Edinburgh is one of the most visually impressive cities of Europe, while Dublin you can really see in its building history, the relative poverty under occupation.


    Catalonia and the Basque
     
    From what I remember of the history book I read, these regions became very wealthy and developed in the late 19th century, under their powerful local bourgeoisie.

    They have been among the most economically successful parts of Spain since at least the late 19th century. But I'm not sure if this was such a divergence from a mainland Spain before the 19th century.

  219. @Dmitry
    @Coconuts


    Paul Preston is a historian who had/has quite strong opinions about the Franco
     
    I can't say much about this topic, as I only read about Spain in the bookshop to improve my Spanish language skill. I don't really know much about Spanish history, beyond skimming a few pages in the bookshop.

    Still Mikel needs to argue less with me, and more with whatever they write about Spanish history in the bookshops, because I just remember those books.

    What I found interesting about Paul Preston, is that his books are promoted in the book shops in Madrid, as the most authoritative historian, even while they are translated to Spanish from English.

    So when I was in the bookshop in Madrid and trying to read Spanish history books, the most promoted ones can be English authors. And Paul Preston is one of the main books I saw in Madrid bookshops.

    -

    If I remember talking about this in the forum before. Because I remember Paul Preston books are the most promoted 20th century Spanish history books in the Spanish bookshops.

    And I didn't want to read Spanish books with an English author, so I was searching bookshops in Madrid, trying to find something to buy from a Spanish historian.

    Scary that I about wrote this here on the forum 3,2 years ago. It feels like I wrote it a few hours ago. (Our life and youth is dying so fast).
    https://i.imgur.com/J9i261Z.jpg

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/petre-tutea-on-russians/#comment-2598018

    Replies: @Yevardian

    That sounds awful, I noticed the same thing in Finland and the Baltics a while ago, but I simply regarded Anglo-domination as inevitable they have such a small local language market, and such brief literary histories.
    But in Spain? The source of the second most commonly spoken native tongue on the planet? I know Spain has always been quite intellectually backward compared to any other European country of comparable size and power, but wow, in Madrid? That’s really quite grim.

    Although, almost all major bookstores just sell either the usual bestselling trash, alongside extremely similar sections of ‘serious’ books across dozens of chains. It’s invariably more rewarding to go to a 2nd-hand bookstore, not to mention it’s usually cheaper anyway. The owners behind the counter who pilot these commerical deathships usually have decent taste too, as opposed to chains where the manager will pride themselves as belonging to some ridiculous ‘bookclub’, at best..

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    intellectually backward
     
    I'm not sure it is intellectually backward in terms of fiction, but there is definitely outsourcing.

    The largest section for untranslated fiction in the book shops, is the Latin American literature section. So the main production of the untranslated literature they buy in Spain, is from South and Central America.

    But they also read a lot of German/French/Italian literature, translated to Spanish language.

    Aside from reading Latin American literature, I think they follow mainly French fashions for literature.

    For translated fiction, promoted in book shops in Spain are writers like Joseph Roth, Irène Némirovsky, Umberto Eco. I.e. it's the kind of fashionable translated writers for French reading public.

    For documentary literature, they are selling books translated from the anglosaxon publishing world.

    In the end I was able to buy a "History of Spain" book written by a Spanish professor. This book very idealizes Al-Andalus and the Moor's occupation in Spain.


    Anglo-domination as inevitable they have such a small local language market, and such brief literary
     
    I think they have more influence from France in literature taste, while in documentary literature it's importing products from the anglosaxon publishing world. (Which is also in Russia - importing documentary literature from anglosaxon publishing).

    Anglosaxon fictional literature taste is kind of "outlying" in strange ways.

    For example, if you look in bookshops in England, the most promoted or fashionable 20th century Russian writer is Solzhenitsyn, which young anglosaxon hipsters love. Whereas in Russia, few reads Solzhenitsyn (it's definitely unfashionable, especially with young people).

    But in Spain, it seems like taste has been determined more by France than England - that is, writers like Joseph Roth are fashionable in France/Spain, but not in England.

    Spain is kind of receiving the Paris fashions for literature. Whereas in London they have their own world, with its very unusual tastes.


    major bookstores just sell either the usual bestselling trash, alongside extremely similar sections of ‘serious’ books across dozens of chains. It’s invariably more rewarding to go to a 2nd-hand
     
    Because often the best history books are not being printed. Whereas in the commercial bookshops, they only sell currently printed books.

    Perhaps surprisingly, but I think the world's best book shops (with not currently printed books) are in the USA.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  220. So far RF energetic blackmail hasn’t been working as desired, but maybe their plan is exactly to get the physical flow shortages through other gas routes in the middle of the winter, but keep NS fully technically loaded meanwhile hoping to get some kind of extra exemptions during manufactured “energy crisis” if needed?:

    MOSCOW, December 17. /TASS/. The gas-in procedure for the second string of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline started on December 17, the operator of the Nord Stream 2 project said in a statement on Friday.

    “Like the first string, the second string will be gradually filled with gas to build the required inventory and pressure,” the statement said.

    Earlier, pre-commissioning activities on the second string were completed successfully to assure the pipeline integrity.

    Nord Stream 2 will inform about further technical steps in due time, according to the statement.

    “The pipeline is built and independently certified according to applicable technical and industry standards to ensure reliable and safe operations,” the operator noted.

    https://tass.com/economy/1377135

  221. @Yevardian
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Long hair was also the male norm across much of Medieval and 17th Century Europe, what of it?

    Continuing this obsessive reverence for the central asian Aryans which (repeatedly, in waves spanning from the Vedics to Greeks to the British) enslaved and subjugated your dravidian pajeet ancestors? It is an odd Indian fixation.

    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I'm certainly not going to watch it, but presumably its arguing that Atilla's Huns were Indo-Scythian? Because frankly, that doesn't make any sense, as even in their homeland they were replaced (or more likely, a few decisive skirmishes were followed by a mass change in tribal allegiance) by the Sarmatians. The White Huns (Hephthalites) in Asia and 'western' Huns of Atilla are now considered to be entirely unrelated by most scholars, the identity of the latter is debated, but they almost certainly weren't Indo-European.

    Incidentally, Sikhism owes it's existence as a Hindu/Dharmic reaction to Abrahamic religion, it has nothing to do with whatever re-constructed elements are known from the paganism of PIE steppe peoples.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @sher singh

    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I’m certainly not going to watch it

    This is one of my great pet peeves. As we move toward a semi-post-literate culture more and more content is in video form. Oftentimes I’ll be looking up some headline and I’ll have to pick through several video reports before I finally find a print write up. I can’t be bothered to watch some stupid talking head deliver the info, plus I think that video presentation adds a layer of distraction which makes the actual information less easily digestible. It also makes it easier to inject emotion, which can be manipulative. Similarly, the nightly news is not informative, it is entertainment first and foremost. This seems true with any visual medium.

    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action. I mean, cripes! This IS why language was developed; as a mode of accurately conveying meaning!

    • Agree: AP, A123, Mikel
    • Replies: @A123
    @Barbarossa

    I certainly try to avoid video for basic facts where possible. However it is sometimes available when full transcripts are not. This has happened a few times recently with Ted Cruz and Gov. DeSantis.

    It is almost as if Fake Stream Media and major search engines are then concealing what was said.... Of course.... They would never do that.... Right?

    It is much easier for Yverdian's Lügenpresse to cover up text he does not like versus speech recognition on video. I believe the Cruz video was via Rumble to provide extra anti censorship protection.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Barbarossa

    I generally tend to agree with your sentiments here, but will differ in one respect, especially about a "mixed media" like political cartoons. A well written political cartoon can be more effective in making a poignant point than either a written script or a picture standing all on its own.


    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action.

     

    It's even more frustrating when the picture and the instructions don't exactly line-up. Either the screw depicted doesn't exist within the ones supplied, or the area that you're supposed to address also somehow looks totally different or doesn't exist. This is probably manageable for somebody like yourself that seems to have a well nuanced ability for carpentering etc., but for the rest of us it can be cause for a minor nervous breakdown. :-)

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @Dmitry
    @Barbarossa

    I actually like to receive information from YouTube videos nowadays. Just play YouTube videos on your television and it's relaxing. More amateur the videographer, the better/

    But I think the thing is to use video as the primary source, rather than secondary source.

    Obviously people speaking in YouTube videos, will be usually stupid, biased and non-informative, as listening to some amateur radio channel.

    But if you watch videos as a primary source? There is actually a somewhat direct way to learn something than reading about it, as - it might be selected by the videographer, but it's not filtered through the writer's biases.

    I mean nowadays you can watch Indian street culture instead of reading about it. See how unglobalized they are, etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-9L9ggc-HI

    Everyone who watches such videos will emerge with a different opinion, which is a sign of more direct information. Some people will love what they see in the Indian streets, others will hate it.

    Whereas, if you read an article, there is a desire of the writer to make the reader confirm to their own opinion. The writer can select certain items, and try to make the reader conform to a particular opinion. It's a sign of very indirect information in written text.

  222. @Agathoklis
    @Mikel

    I have also attributed the long Franco dictatorship as the cause of Spain's mad rush to hyper-liberalism compared to Italy. But how does that explain Greece? Greece also had long periods of so-called conservative 'reactionary' rule, even a dictatorship for seven years, but it remains more socially conservative than Spain. So the following schema: conservative, reactionary leads to hyper-liberalism
    and liberalism leads to conservative does not really hold.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Triteleia Laxa

    Recent Greek history, especially as regards the fear they have of Turkey explains this very well. Greek nationhood and freedom was a liberal cause. Lord Byron died in support of it. This creates a more widely held sympathy with Greek continuity and conservatism than somewhere like Spain, where the dominant nationalism is also, seen by the left, as an oppressor one.

    Greece is like Estonia, Israel and even Finland. Spain is more like Russia, Germany and Sweden, in this regard. Some nationalisms were historically rooted in progressive movements, other were not, or have had that sheen scratched off them by other history.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Triteleia Laxa

    This is a good point. Nationalism in Greece tends to cross party lines but manifests itself in different ways. The rise of SYRIZA and certain forms of New Left shocked many old nationalist Leftists because they challenged certain ideas about Greek history, identity and acceptance of non-Greeks. Greek nationalism was originally a very liberal cause and one of the most successful patriotic leaders, Venizelos was a liberal.

  223. @Barbarossa
    @Yevardian


    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I’m certainly not going to watch it
     
    This is one of my great pet peeves. As we move toward a semi-post-literate culture more and more content is in video form. Oftentimes I'll be looking up some headline and I'll have to pick through several video reports before I finally find a print write up. I can't be bothered to watch some stupid talking head deliver the info, plus I think that video presentation adds a layer of distraction which makes the actual information less easily digestible. It also makes it easier to inject emotion, which can be manipulative. Similarly, the nightly news is not informative, it is entertainment first and foremost. This seems true with any visual medium.

    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action. I mean, cripes! This IS why language was developed; as a mode of accurately conveying meaning!

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    I certainly try to avoid video for basic facts where possible. However it is sometimes available when full transcripts are not. This has happened a few times recently with Ted Cruz and Gov. DeSantis.

    It is almost as if Fake Stream Media and major search engines are then concealing what was said…. Of course…. They would never do that…. Right?

    It is much easier for Yverdian’s Lügenpresse to cover up text he does not like versus speech recognition on video. I believe the Cruz video was via Rumble to provide extra anti censorship protection.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @A123

    I should hasten to add that I wasn't necessarily seconding Yevardian's shade towards you. It seemed rather mean spirited and unnecessary.
    The sentence just got me headed on a tangent.

    Replies: @A123

  224. sher singh says:
    @Yevardian
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Long hair was also the male norm across much of Medieval and 17th Century Europe, what of it?

    Continuing this obsessive reverence for the central asian Aryans which (repeatedly, in waves spanning from the Vedics to Greeks to the British) enslaved and subjugated your dravidian pajeet ancestors? It is an odd Indian fixation.

    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I'm certainly not going to watch it, but presumably its arguing that Atilla's Huns were Indo-Scythian? Because frankly, that doesn't make any sense, as even in their homeland they were replaced (or more likely, a few decisive skirmishes were followed by a mass change in tribal allegiance) by the Sarmatians. The White Huns (Hephthalites) in Asia and 'western' Huns of Atilla are now considered to be entirely unrelated by most scholars, the identity of the latter is debated, but they almost certainly weren't Indo-European.

    Incidentally, Sikhism owes it's existence as a Hindu/Dharmic reaction to Abrahamic religion, it has nothing to do with whatever re-constructed elements are known from the paganism of PIE steppe peoples.

    Replies: @Barbarossa, @sher singh

    Armenian, you haven’t given your allotment of concubines to Negros this month.
    I’m a Jatt we arrived in the sub-con way later, and I know Panjabis bully you wherever you are..

    I haven’t watched the video, and also we’re patrilineal. You give women to niggers, we carry sword. :shrug:

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  225. @Beckow
    @A123


    ...DNC has unleashed Carter-flation 2.0...
     
    Inflation always undermines the existing power structure. For elite it is as bad as losing a war. They ruling liberals didn't unleash it willingly, by 2021 they had no better alternative. The cumulative debts cannot be paid back - defaults or a jubilee could trigger a catastrophic chain reaction. The only alternative was to use inflation to devalue debts gradually - it buys time.

    The reason the Fed fibs about it is that they want the inflation benefits without the bad publicity. It usually doesn't work. This will get ugly. If MAGA was allowed to implement its full program in 2017-20 - or if Trump had more willpower to push it through - it could have been avoided: closed borders, domestic reindustrialization, growing economy, higher incomes - together that would have stabilized the system.

    But it didn't happen and by 2025 things could be too decrepit to try again.

    Replies: @A123

    As I repeatedly point out, it was the U.S. system not the willpower of an individual.

    There was no visible alternative to achieve the outcome you, I, and others wanted. At that time the only way to beat the system would have been overthrowing the Constitution and declaring himself Emperor Triumphus I.

      

    While emotionally appealing to some, such hopes were naive & highly impractical. Such a rebellion would almost certainly have failed.
    ___

    The U.S. people, suffering under Not-The-President Biden’s illegitimate regime, are growing in willpower. Openly rigging an election worked once, but will not be tolerated again. Also, the GOP has genuinely adopted MAGA. There will be a MAGA House for Appropriations & (hopefully) Senate for Confirmations.

    The key to escaping the inflation trap is making sufficient physical goods in the U.S. Despite SJW Sabotage, energy independence will be available for the next administration. If the President, Senate, and House together have the will, it is not too late. If only one has the willpower, we are probably looking at a Civil War and an end to the Constitution as it currently exists.
    ___

    There is one thing that is guaranteed to produce failure. Joining team #NeverTrump because Trump failed to achieve the unachievable in his 1st Term. Irrational low-IQ yahoos want Biden to have 8 years in puppet office & permanent DNC rule. Why? Because the impossible was impossible. That hurt their feelings. One cannot use logic to dissuade people from that magnitude of emotion based SJW irrationality.

    #LetsGoBrandon 😇

  226. If you fell for the EM hype-train you got burned, badly.

    Most of EM just rode the China-driven commodities supercycle (2000-2013) and had precious little fundamentals to sustain them beyond that. The only developing region that I am fairly optimistic about is ASEAN, specifically countries like Vietnam. India should do okay, but not great. Rest are largely hopeless. Expect migration to pick up.

    We can see the signs all around us. Argentina, Lebanon, Venezuela now even Turkey… the list just keeps getting longer.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Do mainstream emerging market funds, invest ever much money to Argentina, Lebanon, etc?

    If you look in the Vanguard Emerging Market ETF. It seems most of your money would go to China and Taiwan.
    https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/portfolio/vwo

    Due to the political level, money invested in China is a bit of a dangerous Casino and I'm not sure how the 0,3% in EU countries like Hungary will save you. But at least there is 20% in Taiwan, which seems more politically (if not geopolitically) safe.

    https://i.imgur.com/bHtweLf.jpg

    And then I would worry why they add your money to companies Alibaba and Tencent, which appear undervalued, but also politically vulnerable.

    I would expect emerging market investments in "serious core industries", but instead they add much of your money for e-commerce platforms that can be politically expropriated.

    At least "Emerging Market" investors are using a liberal concept of emerging markets, to allow them to include Taiwan industries like TSMC. And TSMC would generate a lot of money for them in the last year.


    https://i.imgur.com/aPyWaeO.jpg

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  227. @AP
    @songbird


    Where are the Indians in Haiti?
     
    The pre-Columbian population in Haiti was tiny - in couple 10,000s, per genetic research. At least half probably died of disease.

    Quebec then becomes even smaller than New England


    New England has areas which are unarable or so acidic that they are arable for only very specific crops like cranberries, and it is fairly narrow and somewhat constrained by mountains.
     
    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State, which has lots of arable land and was once the heartland of the large Iroquois confederacy.

    Anyway, I don’t think that either of us are expert enough to understand what the expected number of Indians should be.
     
    Sure, but a discrepancy of that magnitude makes it hard to conclude that the French Catholics in Quebec didn't treat the natives a lot better than did the Calvinist Puritans.

    My main disagreement with you is in your moral condemnation of European settlement in America.
     
    French and Russians were fairly benign, Spaniards were on balance good (anything bad done by then was more than compensated for by the destruction of the evil demon-worshipping Aztec Empire), English were brutal and bad to the natives. That they then built a successful and prosperous society for themselves (and those who joined them) - more so than did the others in North America - speaks to the success of English governance and customs for their own people.

    your family being more recent transplants, with zero perceived interest in maintaining a traditional American identity
     
    I'd like America to remain as it is (well, until recently, but it still has a long way to fall), because it is a good place to live and my kids and grandkids will be here.

    If somehow the place was like Paraguay, would your family have come?
     
    They would have stayed in Western Europe. Some of them did.

    Ukrainians who moved to Paraguay became rich farmers and landowners though:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Paraguay


    If you had any sense of propriety, you ought to be thanking them, rather than condemning them and looking to score points off of them.
     
    I condemn evil where I see it. Genocide is evil. I wouldn't have existed if Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR, an invasion that involved tens of millions of deaths.. Should I be thankful for that, as I should be thankful for Calvinists for wiping out much of a continent?

    Indians loved nothing so much as killing each other.
     
    I don't pretend they were better, of course. Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict.

    Replies: @songbird

    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State

    Methinks you would have to add New England to New York and more to get to the area of Quebec.

    We are talking about slash and burn agriculture here, and probably without the slash, due to lack of metallurgy. Have you ever tried to cut down an oak tree with a stone axe? (I’m sure that it can’t be done.)

    Better comparison of resources would not be assumed quantification of agricultural potential for Indians, but rather how many deer and moose in the woods, fish in the rivers, nuts from the trees, berries on the bushes? How many beaver pelts to be traded? And I would suppose that Quebec would clearly be the winner here.

    [MORE]

    Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict.

    Did they practice ritual torture to the death and cannibalism of their captives?

    Should I be thankful for that, as I should be thankful for Calvinists for wiping out much of a continent?

    i don’t get your point here at all. If you are lamenting the loss of culture, then I have read American Indian myths, and you can too. They were super-primitive. Frankly, a lot of their stories stink, and some of the more meritorious probably have dubious origin. The most interesting cultures were clearly wiped out by the Spanish, not the English. They gambled over their gold artifacts and melted them down into bullion, instead of preserving them. They destroyed a lot of their buildings and reused the stone. It is said that the Inca, used to have some sort of tower, and that it was filled to the top with their dead bodies, after they made a last ditch defense.

    There are all sorts of hairy tales about the Spanish cutting people’s hands off, enslaving them, massacring them, and forcing them into death mines. There were many native rebellions against the Spanish. I don’t think you have a leg to stand on historically.

    Nor with the French. The English had Indian allies in the French and Indian war. Surely, they wouldn’t have teamed up with the English, if they thought them so evil? Or the English would have neatly disposed of those in Canada, when they won.

    I condemn evil where I see it.

    I fail to see the virtue int feeling sanctimonious about something that happened 400 years ago, and which you have fantastically benefited from.

    True ethics is consequentialism. What good comes from denouncing them now? And trying to compare them? Clearly, they are all lumped together as “white”, and it is being used as a justification to invade both America and Europe, and for many other kinds of evil.

    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird


    It also has river valleys accessible for farming. Quebec is right next to New England and has three times as many Indians as does New England. It also has three times as many Indians as does New York State

    Methinks you would have to add New England to New York and more to get to the area of Quebec.
     
    Not the area of habitable land.

    Prior to European settlement (but after the plagues), in around 1600, the Native population in New England was estimated at around 60,000-100,000, depending on the source. I couldn't find an estimate for Quebec specifically but Canada as a whole was at around 200,000. So perhaps Quebec had 40,000?

    Yet today there are nearly 90,000 Indians in Quebec and only around 30,000 in New England.

    "Unlike the Catholic Spaniards, the English Calvinists were every bit as savage and evil as were many of the Indian tribes with whom they came into conflict."

    Did they practice ritual torture to the death and cannibalism of their captives?
     
    Point taken. You are correct. I was thinking in terms of totally annihilating their enemies as the Iroquois did to the Hurons, rather than the means of this destruction.

    i don’t get your point here at all. If you are lamenting the loss of culture
     
    It stems from a comparison of the relatively humane treatment of natives by the Catholic and Orthodox powers with their near-total destruction by the Anglo Calvinists.

    The most interesting cultures were clearly wiped out by the Spanish, not the English.
     
    It was what mass murdering demon-worshipping culture deserved. How decadent and morally depraved would someone have to be, to view that destruction as some sort of tragedy?

    But they didn't just slaughter the natives. They brought to them the beautiful aspects of European high culture, taught them to read and write, etc.

    They destroyed a lot of their buildings and reused the stone.
     
    Correction: they transformed crude pyramids where people's beating hearts had been ripped out as a sacrifice to demon-gods, into beautiful baroque cathedrals where natives sang pretty songs rather than getting eviscerated by priests wearing costumes made of human skin.

    There are all sorts of hairy tales about the Spanish cutting people’s hands off, enslaving them, massacring them, and forcing them into death mines.
     
    Sure, it wasn't perfect, there were a lot of greedy adventurous bastards involved. Though it's not like the native peasants had it better before the Spaniards showed up - they had been slaves periodically harvested for sacrifice. Eventually they just became southern Euro-style peasants.

    Pretty soon, the natives were better off thanks to Spanish contact. You can't say the same about the ones encountering the English.

    Nor with the French. The English had Indian allies in the French and Indian war. Surely, they wouldn’t have teamed up with the English, if they thought them so evil? Or the English would have neatly disposed of those in Canada, when they won.
     
    English authorities weren't as bad as Calvinist colonists (who themselves had a difficult relationship with the Crown). But the English-settled Canadian maritime provinces have 45,000 Indians. More than New England, but only half the number as in Quebec.

    I fail to see the virtue int feeling sanctimonious about something that happened 400 years ago
     
    What is sanctimonious about condemning something evil?

    and which you have fantastically benefited from
     
    I also benefited from Hitler's invasion and occupation of the USSR. Should I not condemn it as an evil thing to do, therefore? Many prosperous Jews whose ancestors made it out of some small poverty-stricken Eastern European shtetl to come to America benefited from pogroms or the Holocaust that got their ancestors to leave. They shouldn't condemn such crimes?

    To be a person alive in this world is to have benefited from past evils. So? The evils shouldn't be described for what they are?

    Replies: @utu, @songbird

  228. @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    All Indo European Gods have long hair.
    Sikhs are not unique but merely a codified version

    Of the universal & primordial Arya culture
    Down to the unshorn hair & weapons worship

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/fflm3c/ares_and_the_scythian_sword_cult/

    Replies: @Yevardian, @songbird

    Not sure Huns were PIE. Maybe.

    But it seems like they practiced some pretty weird customs. Cranial deformation (albeit was seemingly copied by some Germans). And I have heard that they also defoliated their beards by scarification from knives or burning. (though I am scratching my head over this, isn’t Attila described as having a short beard?)

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    I just wanted to post the photo that's now in Yeverdian's in-law information comment.

    The cult of the Sword is ancient & illustrious.
    PIE is a meme made by Anglos & Jews at Harvard, who cares?
    Worship weapons, lift weights.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/640459736919048202/921496688143786004/unknown.png

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  229. @Dmitry
    @Mikel


    I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%.
     
    Exclude children and pensioners, and the proportion of young women would be even higher, if this figure was true. And then it's people currently passing through the work, so the total who pass through in a lifetime becomes higher again than currently working women.

    I'm not saying it is a reliable data, or that we infer anything. I'm not saying I'm knowledgeable enough to assess this claim. Just that the source is matches what I had intended in my original post meaning.


    I don’t know why you feel the need to defend this claim with some much energy. Whatever.

     

    I'm not defending the claim, just that it matches the narrative in those books.

    Anyway, the interesting thing is in detail the texts I posted, not me or you arguing pedantics.

    That is, the claim that prostitution "increases massively under Franco" (Paul Preston), while there is a moral campaign in the media or culture by the government. That is, such a government censoring morality, and then you might often see divergence at the reality.

    I added this fact just to mention such a divergence. E.g. When the Second Spanish Republic government bans prostitution in 1935, and this ban is removed in 1941 by Franco's government.


    I wrote that in the USSR “a high proportion of all Russian women were working as” teachers nobody would think that I was speaking of the crazy high figure of… 4%
     
    The number of people working as teachers is less than 1% of the total population today.

    So I interpret a claim about 4% of the total female population of a city like Barcelona as prostitutes, sounds very high proportion.

    But for discussing Franco's Spain, I'm sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.

    -

    Offtopic.

    A story I read recently about Franco's regime, was about the "stolen babies", which reminds a bit of the "Yemenite Children Affair" in Israel (in which children of Yemenite immigrants were reported to be dead by hospitals, and given to families for adoption).

    "Known as the lost children of the Franco-era, as many as 300,000 babies are estimated to have been abducted from their mothers under General Francisco Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939-75, and in the decades after."

    "The theft of newborns began in the 1930’s after the Spanish Civil War as an ideological practice, stripping left-wing parents or Franco-opponents of their children as a way of ridding Marxist influence from society. But in the 1950’s, the practice expanded to poor or illegitimate families who were seen as economically or morally deficient, Agence France-Presse reports."

    https://time.com/5321938/spain-stolen-babies-franco-trial/

    Replies: @Mikel

    But for discussing Franco’s Spain, I’m sure there are many more interesting things to mention. I just used an example I remembered.

    Your original claim, taken literally, was pretty absurd, whether you want to realize it or not. But I wouldn’t say that living conditions in post-war Spain is an uninteresting topic. The pretty long Amazon preview of the book mentioned by Coconuts was very engaging for me and I’d like to read the whole report at some point.

    However, the amount of prostitution in the postwar years plays no role at all in how Spaniards became woker than other Europeans. Even my parents (one already deceased) were probably too young to learn much about the matter and there were much more important and stark inconsistencies in Franco’s moral standards than an ambiguous treatment of prostitution in those initial years. In general, Spaniards didn’t grow tired of Franco because he was more or less inconsistent. They grew tired of the whole thing because the National-Catholicism doctrine was old, outdated, repressive, boring as hell and culturally had set them decades back from their European peers, even the poorer ones.

  230. German_reader says:
    @Pericles
    @Dmitry

    I wonder how we should evaluate countries like the Netherlands or Germany where prostitution is currently legalized? Or the US, where it's usually not legal but nowadays seems to be largely ignored. Or Sweden, where it's quasi-legalized-but-not in a sort of sex-positive feminist thought-pretzel.

    (All of this in spite of current extremely loose public morals compared to the 1950s.)

    Replies: @German_reader

    I wonder how we should evaluate countries like the Netherlands or Germany where prostitution is currently legalized?

    Obviously these are pretty degenerate societies (and I’m not in favour of Germany’s prostitution laws, and the idea that “sex work” should be seen as a job like any other). Prostitution is however something done mostly by women from abroad.
    Germany has about 40 000 officially registered prostitutes:
    https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2020/07/PD20_286_228.html

    Only about 7700 have German citizenship…whereas a whopping 14 300 (35%) have Romanian citizenship. Bulgaria (11%) and Hungary (8%) are also well-represented (I wonder if there’s some gypsy factor involved here).

  231. @Yevardian
    @Mikel

    No need for insinuation, I'm almost certain this refers to Catalonia and the Basque Country. I suppose Spanish history is somewhat unusual within Europe, in that the richest and most socially developed areas of the country have also been also been on the geographic and linguistic periphery in relation to the political centre, Castille.
    Although wasn't the Basque Country the main fighting ground for the Carlist Wars? Granted, they had their own self-interested reasons (F-f... fourist? don't recall the name, autonomy privileges) but Carlism can hardly be described as anything but ultra-conservative, whatever a hodgepodge of ideas it was.

    Perhaps in a timeline where Franco was sufficiently stupid or vainglorious for Hitler to successfully bribe him into the war, we would have seen Spain broken up into its distinct ethnic parts.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Dmitry

    Although wasn’t the Basque Country the main fighting ground for the Carlist Wars?

    Yes. Basques in those wars were fighting both for their regional privileges and for a more traditionalist/reactionary king in Spain.

    But several things happened at the end of the 19th century that transformed the relationship of Basques with Spain forever: the defeat in the Carlists wars, the loss of the last Spanish colonies, that definitely turned Spain into a European backwater and the massive influx of poor Spanish immigrants to the Basque industrial towns, that created a big cultural shock in the autochthonous population. Francoist repression and the intensification of immigration in the post-war years only exacerbated the problem.

    The linguistic and ethnic divide had always been there but it didn’t become much of a problem until the 19th century.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Mikel

    Btw, are you native Euskadi-speaker? I guess you're of that heritage, from your name at least.

    I'm curious what the linguistic situation on the ground is, whether people other than old people and peasants still speak it unselfconsciously, whether there's any decent media produced in it, etcaetera. I was trying to search for Welsh-language stuff (in Welsh, I have a basic understanding of it) on youtube, for a rough indication of whether it has any traction with young people, but 99% of videos were just learning-progress videos, or BBC-Cymraeg clips with no comments.
    I suppose these Wales and Basque country are interesting to me also in that they're the only parts of the Western Empire where people still speak the same languages as before the Romans.. I guess you could add Berber in Morocco too. In the East I think (other than Greek) the only surviving local tongues from antiquity are Albanian, Georgian and Armenian.

    I'm just thinking that by far the most famous writers from Wales, Ireland and Basque-Country (respectively, Rhys Davies, James Joyce and Unamuno), either weren't raised with their parents' native language, or had a very opinion of it.. Joyce dismissed Irish-revivalism as cringe play-acting, and Unamuno even said agglutinative languages were 'poorly suited for expressing complex abstract ideas'.

    Replies: @Mikel, @Dmitry

  232. @Barbarossa
    @Yevardian


    Nobody here but cretins like A123 watches videos for information, I’m certainly not going to watch it
     
    This is one of my great pet peeves. As we move toward a semi-post-literate culture more and more content is in video form. Oftentimes I'll be looking up some headline and I'll have to pick through several video reports before I finally find a print write up. I can't be bothered to watch some stupid talking head deliver the info, plus I think that video presentation adds a layer of distraction which makes the actual information less easily digestible. It also makes it easier to inject emotion, which can be manipulative. Similarly, the nightly news is not informative, it is entertainment first and foremost. This seems true with any visual medium.

    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action. I mean, cripes! This IS why language was developed; as a mode of accurately conveying meaning!

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    I generally tend to agree with your sentiments here, but will differ in one respect, especially about a “mixed media” like political cartoons. A well written political cartoon can be more effective in making a poignant point than either a written script or a picture standing all on its own.

    The lack of written directions is started to filter into tool and equipment instructions. Instead of a couple of concisely written paragraphs to digest, now you often have to decipher some bizarre string of ambiguous pictographic representations of your tool in action.

    It’s even more frustrating when the picture and the instructions don’t exactly line-up. Either the screw depicted doesn’t exist within the ones supplied, or the area that you’re supposed to address also somehow looks totally different or doesn’t exist. This is probably manageable for somebody like yourself that seems to have a well nuanced ability for carpentering etc., but for the rest of us it can be cause for a minor nervous breakdown. 🙂

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Mr. Hack

    I actually like cartoons myself. They are a format all their own. They are meant to be a sort of condensed distillation of reality.

    Calvin and Hobbes is my personal favorite in that category. I loved it as a kid and it's only grown on me as I have fully realized the layers of social commentary that escaped me as a child.

    My beef is more with the accelerating trend toward visuals based forms of information dissemination. Video seems to me much easier to leverage for manipulation and short circuiting the logical mind. Music and accompanying graphics can easily manipulate the emotions, making the logical arguments or data of secondary importance.

    For example, it's easy to elicit a partisan reaction on something like immigration based on the images presented. I would suspect that a neutrally worded news story would call up different reactions if images of mothers and children looking forlorn accompany it rather than aggressive looking males at a chain link fence.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  233. @songbird
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Not sure Huns were PIE. Maybe.

    But it seems like they practiced some pretty weird customs. Cranial deformation (albeit was seemingly copied by some Germans). And I have heard that they also defoliated their beards by scarification from knives or burning. (though I am scratching my head over this, isn't Attila described as having a short beard?)

    Replies: @sher singh

    I just wanted to post the photo that’s now in Yeverdian’s in-law information comment.

    The cult of the Sword is ancient & illustrious.
    PIE is a meme made by Anglos & Jews at Harvard, who cares?
    Worship weapons, lift weights.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @sher singh


    Worship weapons, lift weights
     
    I see from a variety of your comments that you are a strong advocate for weight lifting. In my experience that really isn't the best way to build the functional strength that you would actually use if one were actually in pitched combat.

    I'm a fairly wiry guy, but in very good condition because I have an extremely physical profession. I can easily outwork and outperform guys that are would crush me in the gym. It doesn't seem like bulk and weight lifting performance have much to do with functional performance in the real world.

    I know you are always "showing us your sword", but what do you do with it?

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa


  234. If one only remembers one thing about George Soros please remember that Soros contributed \$21 BILLION to radical organizations with the intent to fundamentally change America and he demands results! Plus his often multi-million dollar donations to radical district attorney and attorney general races at the local and state level are in addition to the \$21 billion. These races often have no limits on candidate contributions and Soros’ funding, in these often low budget races, overwhelms them.

    This cartoon regarding George Soros has been expunged from Fox News (and probably other places too) because of the overreaching long hand of the censors at the Anti-Defamation League that thought that it was “anti-semitic”. I think that a better response to their conce