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So it’s Russia Independence Day today:

– What did you say they are celebrating?
– The Day of Russian Independence, Your Majesty.
– From who?
– I don’t know, Your Majesty.

***

In other news, I have been shadowbanned on Twitter. This basically means that I am invisible on the platform to anybody who doesn’t follow me there (that is, all of Twitter minus ~7,000 people), and even they will see my poasts much less frequently.

I am attaching the full thread as an image at the end of this post (shadowbanned people even lose the ability to create Twitter threads).

I suppose it’s a good way to throttle influence without formally banning.

Some people have said that deactivating one’s account for a period of time and then reactivating fixes the issue. I tried doing so last night, that didn’t work, so the decision was probably “manual” rather than “algorithmic”.

Reasons could have been one of many:

1) Could be the beginning of a campaign to rein in the Unz Review network on Twitter in general (after the complete ban on Facebook and the deranking on Google).

2) Could be the result of some SJW reports linked to some recent Russian “hashtag” wars, e.g. #яндекскуколд which I will soon write about.

3) Could be me being swept up in the recent bannings of “state-affiliated” Russian/Chinese “propaganda” bots – not that Twitter will ever go after their Western equivalents, being an American propaganda platform.

4) Could have been me poasting a Black crime/IQ related Tweet as a reply to this disgusting BBC article attempting to promote the American bn worship religion to Russia.

5) Too many strikes on whatever internal “social credit” they use.

In any case, the results are already quite stark. Having lost ~2% of traffic due to the Facebook ban, more than a third due to the Google deranking, and ~10% due to the Twitter shadowban, that’s basically a halving of visitorship to my blog just due to the whims of Google, Zucc, and @jack.

This is why I keep saying that social media is a cancer.

***

Unfortunately, @VileVarangian – one of the interesting and humorous accounts on Russia right Twitter – was not so lucky, he was jacked outright. His new account is here: https://twitter.com/pun_varangian

***

On that last note – https://akarlin.com/donations/

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Blogging, Censorship, Open Thread, Western Hypocrisy 
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  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Scouting is the last stand of implicit white identity.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Kent Nationalist

    So their defense is "he wasn't actually racist." They've already conceded the moral high ground, so it hardly matters whether the statue stays or goes.

    The only worthwhile defense is to go on offense and accuse them of targeting statues because they're white, and they want to remove and replace historical whites just as much as they want to remove and replace contemporary whites.

  3. This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    • Replies: @Realist
    @Daniel Chieh


    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.
     
    Gee, don't get too upset.
    , @iffen
    @Daniel Chieh

    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    Yeah, Dan, it kinda makes me wish I was a person so I could get in on the action.

  4. Sorry to hear about the shadowban.

    Dana is probably next after sharing this marvel from Biden:

    Twitter would shadowban Trump if they thought they could get away with it. You know they want to.

    The Elitists of the SJW Globalist movement are the enemy. They are an Orwellian evil, wishing to suppress all language not approved as “Politicially Correct”.

    Control the Words
    … Control the People
    … … Control the World

    PEACE 😇

  5. Yeah they are giant faggots. I censor the shit out if my self in Twitter.

    I wonder if long term all this will lead to a real big violent backlash irl.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Dreadilk


    I wonder if long term all this will lead to a real big violent backlash irl.
     
    Be a man with balls and stop using Twitter and Facebook, you stupid git.

    Replies: @Dreadilk

  6. The Woke are going for broke. People always wondered why an English speaking person born here read the Soviet dissidents, with no connections to those countries. Now they know, it was also to prepare.

  7. I was banned by Twitter long ago. They even went as far as suspending every new account I create within a day or two for “suspicious activity”. Which they never bothered to explain. After it happened three times, I live happily without Twitter. Screw them. Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Paulina Porizkova


    Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.
     
    That's true - you, personally, will live better without it - but it's also a sour grapes reaction.

    The fact is Twitter's an important tool of political influence and the side that can make good use of it will benefit. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.

    Replies: @Paulina Porizkova

    , @Felix Keverich
    @Paulina Porizkova


    They even went as far as suspending every new account I create within a day or two for “suspicious activity”.
     
    They must have identified you by your IP. Should have used a proxy.
  8. @Kent Nationalist
    Scouting is the last stand of implicit white identity.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qXzHgYOxvk

    Replies: @silviosilver

    So their defense is “he wasn’t actually racist.” They’ve already conceded the moral high ground, so it hardly matters whether the statue stays or goes.

    The only worthwhile defense is to go on offense and accuse them of targeting statues because they’re white, and they want to remove and replace historical whites just as much as they want to remove and replace contemporary whites.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  9. @Paulina Porizkova
    I was banned by Twitter long ago. They even went as far as suspending every new account I create within a day or two for "suspicious activity". Which they never bothered to explain. After it happened three times, I live happily without Twitter. Screw them. Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Felix Keverich

    Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.

    That’s true – you, personally, will live better without it – but it’s also a sour grapes reaction.

    The fact is Twitter’s an important tool of political influence and the side that can make good use of it will benefit. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is.

    • Replies: @Paulina Porizkova
    @silviosilver

    True. And that is precisely the reason Twitter suppresses crimethink.

    But accepting the rules of the game they set is bowing to them and, because the game is rigged, accepting the defeat. If everyone who is against Twitter's commie censorship were to just leave, what would remain will very quickly cease to be politically influential. It's like no one really pays attention to HuffPost anymore - 99% of what they do is preaching to the choir.

  10. @Dreadilk
    Yeah they are giant faggots. I censor the shit out if my self in Twitter.

    I wonder if long term all this will lead to a real big violent backlash irl.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    I wonder if long term all this will lead to a real big violent backlash irl.

    Be a man with balls and stop using Twitter and Facebook, you stupid git.

    • Agree: schnellandine, Realist
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    @anonymous coward

    How about no. It's my news source. Shit happens and it's on Twitter in seconds.

    I am not interested in flame wars I rather vote for the jackboots that will oppress the libtards. Saves time too.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Realist

  11. How do smart normal people think, not talking about geniuses, just your 110 to 130 IQ normal smart people, like your typical engineers, lawyers, and doctors.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Znzn

    They use punctuation appropriately.

    , @Swedish Family
    @Znzn


    How do smart normal people think, not talking about geniuses, just your 110 to 130 IQ normal smart people, like your typical engineers, lawyers, and doctors.
     
    This is pretty much my set.

    I see great alarm about mass immigration, lawlessness, and -- to some degree -- moral and cultural rot, but people rarely see, or care about, the big picture. The awful truth is that indoctrination, divide-and-conquer tactics, and no-platforming work like a charm.

    Herbalis is exactly right here:

    There is nothing toxic about dismantling the BBC. There is nothing toxic about shutting down most courses at most universities. There is nothing toxic about clamping down on big politicised charities. Any populist movement needs to have a worldview based around things like these.

    [...]

    Character limit, character limit, but attacking the contemporary left's institutions needs to be at the forefront, maybe even more than attacking their actual dogma
     
  12. Hi Anatoly,

    I have a question for you regarding Russia’s youth. On the one hand, they are nothing like the “woke” youth of the West and continue to think political correctness is crazy. On the other hand, I would say that a majority are tired of Putin and Putinism in general. They don’t really seem that concerned about patriotism and Russia’s place in the sun so to say. They seem more concerned about individualistic concerns, primarily with making money and having a good quality of life.

    I’d say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers and desire to be like the West. You only ever hear about corruption from them. So my question is this. After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    This is another question I wanted to ask as well but do you think in essence related to my first question that nationalism itself can be preserved in the long run? Or is the entire future likely to be individualistic with people disregarding their lands of birth and climbing into some new kind of tower of Babel?

    Many thanks

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Hartnell


    After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?
     
    No. Russia is reorienting from the West to Eurasia (5 billion people, the biggest and fastest growing economy on the planet). Trade (money) and tourism destinations are being reoriented right now towards non-western countries and there is ongoing import substitution. The West is a declining entity and will continue to be declining under current estimates up to at least 2060, maybe even longer. Thus there will be more eurasian influence in Russia and its businesses, not more western influence.

    Young rus people are apolitical, but also relatively patriotic. The country actually became more conservative during the last 20 years.

    For the youth issue there are various plans in place, such as implementing patriotic education (as per the new Constitution), building more Churches as well as expanding the so called Youth Army (scouts/military education for youth).

    And as long as the West continues to provoke in the near abroad of Russia it just triggers Russia to become more hostile.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    , @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    I think Russian politics will likely become more "right wing", in a Western populist sense, after Putin - if this day ever happens. (Currently, most post-communist countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Estonia - have much more "right wing" populist governments, than in Russia; and I don't see how Russia's politics will not go in such a direction after Putin).

    Putin's ideology and policies, are the most similar of all politicians in the world, to Merkel - although with a bit more competent image management (so he can appear on most all sides of political spectrum), but at the same time a more "elitist" economic system than Merkel (as economic beneficiaries are more unequal in Russia than in countries like Germany).

    Putin follows open borders and multiculturalism fanaticism (similar to Merkel) too much for the long-term benefit of the country, but also he has a lot of benefits of political stability and most of the virtues of sensible and common sense leaders.

    Predictability and stability are one of the greatest virtues for country's development, so in this way Putin and Merkel, are much better leaders than their alternatives - partly as result of their stable, predictable and boring responses to everything. For the leader of a country, boring and predictable is better, than "exciting and unpredictable" - as public life is mainly a kind of co-ordination problem for citizens, and especially businesses.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Mr. Hack

    , @melanf
    @Hartnell


    I’d say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers
     
    good majority of them definitely not Yabloko sympathizers. Yabloko has almost no sympathizers
    , @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    As far as the relations of the Empire and its sidekicks with Russia are concerned, the law of unintended consequences reigns supreme.

    The Empire had a chance to destroy Russia by infecting it with every malaise of the West in the early 1990s. All the US had to do was embrace compradore Russian elites of that time. The Empire blew its chance miserably.

    In the last six plus years the Empire did everything to strengthen Russia. Naturally, not intentionally, just out of stupidity. It organized a coup in Ukraine in 2014. Crimea did not miss its chance to return to Russia the same year (it unsuccessfully tried to do so many times since 1991). Donbass rebelled and reoriented towards Russia, and now there is zero chance of its return to the Ukrainian cesspool. The Empire introduced sanctions, which greatly strengthened Russian economy, forcing it to develop many areas to increase self-reliance. At the same time sanctions were a bucket of cold water on the heads of compradore elites. Many Russian big thieves became a lot more patriotic: looking at their moronic Ukrainian colleagues they understood that the only thing that can prevent other thieves from stealing your loot is a strong country standing behind you. This also forced Russia to reorient towards Asia, including China. The Empire had no chance against Russia or China alone, but with that de facto alliance it lost even a hope to have a chance. Russian traitorous libtards were never popular (their support was always in single digits), but recent mayhem in the US and its vassals shattered the last illusions in Russia about the West. Most people, including those who don’t approve of Putin and his clique, see it as death throes of the West. Everyone who is smarter than a brick has no desire to die with it.

  13. @Znzn
    How do smart normal people think, not talking about geniuses, just your 110 to 130 IQ normal smart people, like your typical engineers, lawyers, and doctors.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Swedish Family

    They use punctuation appropriately.

    • LOL: Ano4
  14. @anonymous coward
    @Dreadilk


    I wonder if long term all this will lead to a real big violent backlash irl.
     
    Be a man with balls and stop using Twitter and Facebook, you stupid git.

    Replies: @Dreadilk

    How about no. It’s my news source. Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.

    I am not interested in flame wars I rather vote for the jackboots that will oppress the libtards. Saves time too.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Dreadilk

    There's no such thing as "news". Are you some sort of boomer?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Realist
    @Dreadilk


    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.
     
    Not if it is shit that Twitter doesn't want you to know about.

    Replies: @another anon, @DreadIlk

  15. Well, the Internet was originally created to fight and win nuclear war against Russia, not to promote anyone’s frozen peaches.

    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.

    • Replies: @A123
    @another anon


    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.
     
    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) "
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.


    The Gypsy Traveller Roofers. It is said they move North with the snow melt line each season and are paid under the table by those who cannot afford better help. They keep rooves over the head of poor Finns. As long as there is no other crime, local government officials tolerate or even encourage the Travellers, as long as they keep Travelling when the work is done.
     
    I have no citation for this, but the story has internal consistency. Especially if there is another function they serve moving South each year, such as agricultural or pre-winter maintenance.

    If I have been hoaxed or misinformed, please let me know. Another possibility, is that it is a historical tale about what the local Gypsy Travellers did a few hundred years ago and that context was lost before it reached me. It seems odd, but stranger things have turned out true.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @another anon

  16. @Hartnell
    Hi Anatoly,

    I have a question for you regarding Russia's youth. On the one hand, they are nothing like the "woke" youth of the West and continue to think political correctness is crazy. On the other hand, I would say that a majority are tired of Putin and Putinism in general. They don't really seem that concerned about patriotism and Russia's place in the sun so to say. They seem more concerned about individualistic concerns, primarily with making money and having a good quality of life.

    I'd say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers and desire to be like the West. You only ever hear about corruption from them. So my question is this. After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    This is another question I wanted to ask as well but do you think in essence related to my first question that nationalism itself can be preserved in the long run? Or is the entire future likely to be individualistic with people disregarding their lands of birth and climbing into some new kind of tower of Babel?

    Many thanks

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry, @melanf, @AnonFromTN

    After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    No. Russia is reorienting from the West to Eurasia (5 billion people, the biggest and fastest growing economy on the planet). Trade (money) and tourism destinations are being reoriented right now towards non-western countries and there is ongoing import substitution. The West is a declining entity and will continue to be declining under current estimates up to at least 2060, maybe even longer. Thus there will be more eurasian influence in Russia and its businesses, not more western influence.

    Young rus people are apolitical, but also relatively patriotic. The country actually became more conservative during the last 20 years.

    For the youth issue there are various plans in place, such as implementing patriotic education (as per the new Constitution), building more Churches as well as expanding the so called Youth Army (scouts/military education for youth).

    And as long as the West continues to provoke in the near abroad of Russia it just triggers Russia to become more hostile.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Passer by

    Passerby,

    I can see your points and it is working for Russia's children. I know that patriotic education is quite strong there now in the schools. But what I mean is the Russian millennials. A poll recently came out that most of them would like to emigrate. Some support gay marriage and the main topics on their mind is the economy and corruption.

    The smart ones seem to be aware of the West's problems and want to find a different path for Russia. But your average IQs I think still feel the West is better then Russia and want to basically copy the West.

    So it is something I think that could come to haunt Russia 20 years down the line. Although to be fairly honest I think trying to enact a Western style welfare state in Russia would be nigh on impossible, especially at this stage.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Passer by

  17. @Passer by
    @Hartnell


    After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?
     
    No. Russia is reorienting from the West to Eurasia (5 billion people, the biggest and fastest growing economy on the planet). Trade (money) and tourism destinations are being reoriented right now towards non-western countries and there is ongoing import substitution. The West is a declining entity and will continue to be declining under current estimates up to at least 2060, maybe even longer. Thus there will be more eurasian influence in Russia and its businesses, not more western influence.

    Young rus people are apolitical, but also relatively patriotic. The country actually became more conservative during the last 20 years.

    For the youth issue there are various plans in place, such as implementing patriotic education (as per the new Constitution), building more Churches as well as expanding the so called Youth Army (scouts/military education for youth).

    And as long as the West continues to provoke in the near abroad of Russia it just triggers Russia to become more hostile.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Passerby,

    I can see your points and it is working for Russia’s children. I know that patriotic education is quite strong there now in the schools. But what I mean is the Russian millennials. A poll recently came out that most of them would like to emigrate. Some support gay marriage and the main topics on their mind is the economy and corruption.

    The smart ones seem to be aware of the West’s problems and want to find a different path for Russia. But your average IQs I think still feel the West is better then Russia and want to basically copy the West.

    So it is something I think that could come to haunt Russia 20 years down the line. Although to be fairly honest I think trying to enact a Western style welfare state in Russia would be nigh on impossible, especially at this stage.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    @Hartnell

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years. The bat shit lefty liberals right now are planting seeds for the take over that is completing it's rounds in the west.

    It does not help it that at their heart Russians seem to be just as liberal as westerners. They still have degeneracy. Their social conservatism does not seem any stronger than it was in US some 50 years ago.

    I am still optimistic for them. First 50 years is still a long time and second west's descent into madness should provide some lessons.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa

    , @Passer by
    @Hartnell

    Well i don't know to whom are you talking to (there is difference in liberalism between parts of Moscow and the rest of the country, try talking to someone from Crimea for example), but politically speaking Putin is popular among young people in the country. There is no appetite in Russia for revolutions or anything like this, it is seen as something destructive for the country based on disastorous previous experiences and people don't want to go that path again. Stability is very important. You can forget about western style divisive identity politics, that simply won't happen. People do not want to tear their country apart and suffer again.

    I think Karlin had a thread on this recently
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/what-does-russians-generation-z-think/

    On the issue of Russian ongoing de-westernisation, tourism is interesting spot. Unlike in the past, the dominant destinations for russian tourists have become non-western countries. Most tourists coming to Russia are non-western also.

    Top russian foreign tourist destinations are Turkey, China and Thailand while most tourists visiting Russia come from China (29 %), Germany and South Korea.

    https://www.rbth.com/travel/330881-there-are-places-youll-never-see-russian-tourists

    https://www.atorus.ru/news/press-centre/new/50489.html

    Country won't be offering new simplified e-visas for the US and UK, but will be expanding that program for the rest of the world instead.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  18. @another anon
    Well, the Internet was originally created to fight and win nuclear war against Russia, not to promote anyone's frozen peaches.

    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.

    https://twitter.com/WASBAPPIN/status/1271002946658897920

    https://twitter.com/WASBAPPIN/status/1266266531891011601

    Replies: @A123

    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.

    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.

    The Gypsy Traveller Roofers. It is said they move North with the snow melt line each season and are paid under the table by those who cannot afford better help. They keep rooves over the head of poor Finns. As long as there is no other crime, local government officials tolerate or even encourage the Travellers, as long as they keep Travelling when the work is done.

    I have no citation for this, but the story has internal consistency. Especially if there is another function they serve moving South each year, such as agricultural or pre-winter maintenance.

    If I have been hoaxed or misinformed, please let me know. Another possibility, is that it is a historical tale about what the local Gypsy Travellers did a few hundred years ago and that context was lost before it reached me. It seems odd, but stranger things have turned out true.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.
     
    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that "Finland" is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that "Finn" is just a slave name that doesn't even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @A123

    , @another anon
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?
     
    Well, now some people are trying to cancel this guy.

    https://twitter.com/WASBAPPIN/status/1271690280270323713

    Will they succeed? Will the Great Bap be cancelled, or will he become the 2040 Democratic nominee?

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

  19. @Hartnell
    Hi Anatoly,

    I have a question for you regarding Russia's youth. On the one hand, they are nothing like the "woke" youth of the West and continue to think political correctness is crazy. On the other hand, I would say that a majority are tired of Putin and Putinism in general. They don't really seem that concerned about patriotism and Russia's place in the sun so to say. They seem more concerned about individualistic concerns, primarily with making money and having a good quality of life.

    I'd say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers and desire to be like the West. You only ever hear about corruption from them. So my question is this. After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    This is another question I wanted to ask as well but do you think in essence related to my first question that nationalism itself can be preserved in the long run? Or is the entire future likely to be individualistic with people disregarding their lands of birth and climbing into some new kind of tower of Babel?

    Many thanks

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry, @melanf, @AnonFromTN

    I think Russian politics will likely become more “right wing”, in a Western populist sense, after Putin – if this day ever happens. (Currently, most post-communist countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Estonia – have much more “right wing” populist governments, than in Russia; and I don’t see how Russia’s politics will not go in such a direction after Putin).

    Putin’s ideology and policies, are the most similar of all politicians in the world, to Merkel – although with a bit more competent image management (so he can appear on most all sides of political spectrum), but at the same time a more “elitist” economic system than Merkel (as economic beneficiaries are more unequal in Russia than in countries like Germany).

    Putin follows open borders and multiculturalism fanaticism (similar to Merkel) too much for the long-term benefit of the country, but also he has a lot of benefits of political stability and most of the virtues of sensible and common sense leaders.

    Predictability and stability are one of the greatest virtues for country’s development, so in this way Putin and Merkel, are much better leaders than their alternatives – partly as result of their stable, predictable and boring responses to everything. For the leader of a country, boring and predictable is better, than “exciting and unpredictable” – as public life is mainly a kind of co-ordination problem for citizens, and especially businesses.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry,

    That is somewhat positive to hear. Most of the major responses I was getting from Russian millennials was there desire for change and how they wanted to be like the West. So it is more heartening to know there is the possibility of a populist revival after Putin.

    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration. They see the West going down the tubes and do make fun of it. But at the same time they do have this love of democracy and regularly do talk about "freedom"...

    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    Outside of cementing his position as "leader for life" Putin has also managed to gain for himself the title of "the world's most unpredictable leader." Even by maneuvering himself into his current role as Russia's eternal steward, one would have been challenged to see just how he would have gone about solidifying his chances to continuously reappear. His international moves have been no less unpredictable than his domestic ones.

  20. If it’s allowed to continue the debate in the last Open Thread so we don’t have scroll down the page which is not easy on a phone?

    Mikhail: Those mixed-use spaces and that architecture of the pre-automobile era are not coming back. We can enjoy what’s left of that era but pursuing their return against the actual wishes of the population

    I would neither be optimistic. But here is a large problem which America was the leader in – that investment and consumption is happening privately, inside peoples’ houses, in distant suburbs, that are only enjoyed or convenient to visit for the residents themselves.

    The public spaces – and so many communal aspect of “polis” – is impoverished by lack of dual investment by bourgeoisie* that had been normal until the automobile (due to its higher density and location still inside cities), when private housing development would create public spaces.

    *Investment in private houses (by property developers) that had created the many of the most beautiful parts of cities, e.g. from Beacon Hill in Boston, or New Town of Edinburgh, or most of West London.

    • Replies: @Charlotte
    @Dmitry

    That’s a good point, but in America, car culture isn’t the only cause. When middle class people don’t feel safe in public spaces (or using public transportation), they don’t have a lot of incentive to put their tax dollars toward beautifying them or creating more public spaces.

  21. @A123
    @another anon


    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.
     
    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) "
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.


    The Gypsy Traveller Roofers. It is said they move North with the snow melt line each season and are paid under the table by those who cannot afford better help. They keep rooves over the head of poor Finns. As long as there is no other crime, local government officials tolerate or even encourage the Travellers, as long as they keep Travelling when the work is done.
     
    I have no citation for this, but the story has internal consistency. Especially if there is another function they serve moving South each year, such as agricultural or pre-winter maintenance.

    If I have been hoaxed or misinformed, please let me know. Another possibility, is that it is a historical tale about what the local Gypsy Travellers did a few hundred years ago and that context was lost before it reached me. It seems odd, but stranger things have turned out true.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @another anon

    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.

    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that “Finland” is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that “Finn” is just a slave name that doesn’t even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Jaakko Raipala


    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that “Finland” is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that “Finn” is just a slave name that doesn’t even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!
     
    That's the spirit!
    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Do the Sami make 5 percent?

    , @A123
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Asian?

    I concede that I can name only one, Mika Hakkinen, The Flying Finn.

    https://youtu.be/FZlHjmhwgZM?t=1

    He doesn't look asian.

    PEACE 😇

    , @A123
    @Jaakko Raipala

    I can only make one Mika Hakkinen, the Flying Finn. He doesn't look asian to me.

    https://youtu.be/ZJkI-NP9-AI?t=21

    PEACE 😇

  22. @Znzn
    How do smart normal people think, not talking about geniuses, just your 110 to 130 IQ normal smart people, like your typical engineers, lawyers, and doctors.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Swedish Family

    How do smart normal people think, not talking about geniuses, just your 110 to 130 IQ normal smart people, like your typical engineers, lawyers, and doctors.

    This is pretty much my set.

    I see great alarm about mass immigration, lawlessness, and — to some degree — moral and cultural rot, but people rarely see, or care about, the big picture. The awful truth is that indoctrination, divide-and-conquer tactics, and no-platforming work like a charm.

    Herbalis is exactly right here:

    There is nothing toxic about dismantling the BBC. There is nothing toxic about shutting down most courses at most universities. There is nothing toxic about clamping down on big politicised charities. Any populist movement needs to have a worldview based around things like these.

    […]

    Character limit, character limit, but attacking the contemporary left’s institutions needs to be at the forefront, maybe even more than attacking their actual dogma

  23. @Jaakko Raipala
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.
     
    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that "Finland" is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that "Finn" is just a slave name that doesn't even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @A123

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that “Finland” is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that “Finn” is just a slave name that doesn’t even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    That’s the spirit!

  24. @Jaakko Raipala
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.
     
    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that "Finland" is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that "Finn" is just a slave name that doesn't even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @A123

    Do the Sami make 5 percent?

  25. @Hartnell
    Hi Anatoly,

    I have a question for you regarding Russia's youth. On the one hand, they are nothing like the "woke" youth of the West and continue to think political correctness is crazy. On the other hand, I would say that a majority are tired of Putin and Putinism in general. They don't really seem that concerned about patriotism and Russia's place in the sun so to say. They seem more concerned about individualistic concerns, primarily with making money and having a good quality of life.

    I'd say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers and desire to be like the West. You only ever hear about corruption from them. So my question is this. After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    This is another question I wanted to ask as well but do you think in essence related to my first question that nationalism itself can be preserved in the long run? Or is the entire future likely to be individualistic with people disregarding their lands of birth and climbing into some new kind of tower of Babel?

    Many thanks

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry, @melanf, @AnonFromTN

    I’d say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers

    good majority of them definitely not Yabloko sympathizers. Yabloko has almost no sympathizers

    • Agree: AP
  26. Based Peter Hitchens

    (It’s probably insensitive to post a twitter link on this thread, but who cares?)

  27. I don’t get why American inter-ethnic relations are apparently relevant to Britain in particular and warrant protests/riots here specifically. France also has a large black population yet this rioting and statue destruction isn’t happening there to anywhere near the same extent as far as I’m aware.

    The only thing Britain and America share is a language, and even that is debatable. In most social and political senses they are as different to each other as any non-Anglo country is to the US.

    • Replies: @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    @Europe Europa

    It was never about ethnic relations.

  28. @Europe Europa
    I don't get why American inter-ethnic relations are apparently relevant to Britain in particular and warrant protests/riots here specifically. France also has a large black population yet this rioting and statue destruction isn't happening there to anywhere near the same extent as far as I'm aware.

    The only thing Britain and America share is a language, and even that is debatable. In most social and political senses they are as different to each other as any non-Anglo country is to the US.

    Replies: @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive

    It was never about ethnic relations.

    • Agree: Ano4
  29. @Hartnell
    Hi Anatoly,

    I have a question for you regarding Russia's youth. On the one hand, they are nothing like the "woke" youth of the West and continue to think political correctness is crazy. On the other hand, I would say that a majority are tired of Putin and Putinism in general. They don't really seem that concerned about patriotism and Russia's place in the sun so to say. They seem more concerned about individualistic concerns, primarily with making money and having a good quality of life.

    I'd say a good majority of them tend to be Yabloko sympathisers and desire to be like the West. You only ever hear about corruption from them. So my question is this. After Putin, is it very likely that Russia is going to transform into a new Western country and embrace all of the things from the West? Or is there still a conservatism there from the youth to still think about Russia and preserve it?

    This is another question I wanted to ask as well but do you think in essence related to my first question that nationalism itself can be preserved in the long run? Or is the entire future likely to be individualistic with people disregarding their lands of birth and climbing into some new kind of tower of Babel?

    Many thanks

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry, @melanf, @AnonFromTN

    As far as the relations of the Empire and its sidekicks with Russia are concerned, the law of unintended consequences reigns supreme.

    The Empire had a chance to destroy Russia by infecting it with every malaise of the West in the early 1990s. All the US had to do was embrace compradore Russian elites of that time. The Empire blew its chance miserably.

    In the last six plus years the Empire did everything to strengthen Russia. Naturally, not intentionally, just out of stupidity. It organized a coup in Ukraine in 2014. Crimea did not miss its chance to return to Russia the same year (it unsuccessfully tried to do so many times since 1991). Donbass rebelled and reoriented towards Russia, and now there is zero chance of its return to the Ukrainian cesspool. The Empire introduced sanctions, which greatly strengthened Russian economy, forcing it to develop many areas to increase self-reliance. At the same time sanctions were a bucket of cold water on the heads of compradore elites. Many Russian big thieves became a lot more patriotic: looking at their moronic Ukrainian colleagues they understood that the only thing that can prevent other thieves from stealing your loot is a strong country standing behind you. This also forced Russia to reorient towards Asia, including China. The Empire had no chance against Russia or China alone, but with that de facto alliance it lost even a hope to have a chance. Russian traitorous libtards were never popular (their support was always in single digits), but recent mayhem in the US and its vassals shattered the last illusions in Russia about the West. Most people, including those who don’t approve of Putin and his clique, see it as death throes of the West. Everyone who is smarter than a brick has no desire to die with it.

  30. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    I think Russian politics will likely become more "right wing", in a Western populist sense, after Putin - if this day ever happens. (Currently, most post-communist countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Estonia - have much more "right wing" populist governments, than in Russia; and I don't see how Russia's politics will not go in such a direction after Putin).

    Putin's ideology and policies, are the most similar of all politicians in the world, to Merkel - although with a bit more competent image management (so he can appear on most all sides of political spectrum), but at the same time a more "elitist" economic system than Merkel (as economic beneficiaries are more unequal in Russia than in countries like Germany).

    Putin follows open borders and multiculturalism fanaticism (similar to Merkel) too much for the long-term benefit of the country, but also he has a lot of benefits of political stability and most of the virtues of sensible and common sense leaders.

    Predictability and stability are one of the greatest virtues for country's development, so in this way Putin and Merkel, are much better leaders than their alternatives - partly as result of their stable, predictable and boring responses to everything. For the leader of a country, boring and predictable is better, than "exciting and unpredictable" - as public life is mainly a kind of co-ordination problem for citizens, and especially businesses.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Mr. Hack

    Dmitry,

    That is somewhat positive to hear. Most of the major responses I was getting from Russian millennials was there desire for change and how they wanted to be like the West. So it is more heartening to know there is the possibility of a populist revival after Putin.

    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration. They see the West going down the tubes and do make fun of it. But at the same time they do have this love of democracy and regularly do talk about “freedom”…

    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Politics in Russia has been now a "mono-party democracy", or one-party state. This is why Putin is such a boring centrist and his main job appears as trying to balance as many conflicting interests as possible. In the America equivalent, if Republicans and Democrats become a single party a couple decades ago, then there would be such a centrist president in America - who tries to please both Republicans and Democrats.

    I don't see why the next president, will not try to continue this - which means they will have to be relatively centrist again, without any sudden changes. As this centrism is a systematic result of the different interests in the country.


    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration.
     
    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter - so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin.

    This is because it is an area where his policy (open borders) does not match public opinion (which wants more selective immigration) - because Putin is balancing more with the wealthy business interests, against the common people.

    Eurasian economic union - which includes completely open borders across full members -. was his favourite strategic project. (The irony of Eurasian economic union, is that countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan refused it, despite offers for them to join).

    Central Asian workers were essential for the construction industry, and this is why e.g. Patriarch Kirill is arguing that Russia should accept these immigrants even if they are Muslim. (Anyone with such large construction interests).

    The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration - something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.


    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

     

    In what sense do you mean by "liberal"?

    Also note the long-term trends of the country. Population is rapidly aging one - an aging population trends to conservatism and is good for future political stability.

    In the first decade of the new millennium, there had rapid embourgeoisement. However, this was mainly a produce of rising oil and commodity prices.

    The last decade, embourgeoisement of population has stagnated. There are the economic conditions for some bourgeois "liberal hipsters", but not large enough waves of such to make so much impact on politics - Ikea can be affordable, but most of the population is far too poor to adopt the lifestyle that breeds Scandinavian politics. Economic conditions are not wealthy enough for the Western European pattern of converting rednecks to hipsters.

    -

    There are a couple uncertain trends though.

    There is an urbanization of the population continuing, but this is not accompanied by much enrichment. What is the political consequences of the masses of people flooding into megacities, is not clear for Russia

    Also for younger generation, there is also a switch to using the internet, instead of television, for political information.

    Replies: @melanf, @Hartnell

  31. Most on the right despise people like Churchill, Cromwell, Baden-Powell, etc. They’re probably only jealous that the blacks are the ones with the gumption to tear their statues down and not them.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    A tiny minority of people 'on the right' dislike Churchill, only a tiny number of taigs and Catholic monarchist LARPers have any strong feelings about Cromwell and I've never heard of anyone disliking Baden-Powell

  32. @Europe Europa
    Most on the right despise people like Churchill, Cromwell, Baden-Powell, etc. They're probably only jealous that the blacks are the ones with the gumption to tear their statues down and not them.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    A tiny minority of people ‘on the right’ dislike Churchill, only a tiny number of taigs and Catholic monarchist LARPers have any strong feelings about Cromwell and I’ve never heard of anyone disliking Baden-Powell

  33. @Paulina Porizkova
    I was banned by Twitter long ago. They even went as far as suspending every new account I create within a day or two for "suspicious activity". Which they never bothered to explain. After it happened three times, I live happily without Twitter. Screw them. Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Felix Keverich

    They even went as far as suspending every new account I create within a day or two for “suspicious activity”.

    They must have identified you by your IP. Should have used a proxy.

  34. @silviosilver
    @Paulina Porizkova


    Most of it is mental diarrhea anyway.
     
    That's true - you, personally, will live better without it - but it's also a sour grapes reaction.

    The fact is Twitter's an important tool of political influence and the side that can make good use of it will benefit. I wish it wasn't so, but it is.

    Replies: @Paulina Porizkova

    True. And that is precisely the reason Twitter suppresses crimethink.

    But accepting the rules of the game they set is bowing to them and, because the game is rigged, accepting the defeat. If everyone who is against Twitter’s commie censorship were to just leave, what would remain will very quickly cease to be politically influential. It’s like no one really pays attention to HuffPost anymore – 99% of what they do is preaching to the choir.

  35. @Hartnell
    @Passer by

    Passerby,

    I can see your points and it is working for Russia's children. I know that patriotic education is quite strong there now in the schools. But what I mean is the Russian millennials. A poll recently came out that most of them would like to emigrate. Some support gay marriage and the main topics on their mind is the economy and corruption.

    The smart ones seem to be aware of the West's problems and want to find a different path for Russia. But your average IQs I think still feel the West is better then Russia and want to basically copy the West.

    So it is something I think that could come to haunt Russia 20 years down the line. Although to be fairly honest I think trying to enact a Western style welfare state in Russia would be nigh on impossible, especially at this stage.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Passer by

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years. The bat shit lefty liberals right now are planting seeds for the take over that is completing it’s rounds in the west.

    It does not help it that at their heart Russians seem to be just as liberal as westerners. They still have degeneracy. Their social conservatism does not seem any stronger than it was in US some 50 years ago.

    I am still optimistic for them. First 50 years is still a long time and second west’s descent into madness should provide some lessons.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Dreadilk


    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.
     
    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is now. For example, the pop group Tatu became quite popular outside in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I can't imagine an LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    The return to traditional values in Russia seems to be relatively recent. From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.
    , @Europe Europa
    @Dreadilk


    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.
     
    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is today. For example, the Russian pop group "Tatu" were popular in the UK in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I find it hard to imagine a LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    I think this return to traditional values in Russia is a relatively recent thing, probably a result of the process of "de-Sovietisation".
    , @Europe Europa
    @Dreadilk


    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.

     

    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is today. For example, the Russian pop group "Tatu" were popular in the UK in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I find it hard to imagine a LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    I think this return to traditional values in Russia is a relatively recent thing, probably a result of the process of "de-Sovietisation"/"de-Communisation".
  36. @Dreadilk
    @anonymous coward

    How about no. It's my news source. Shit happens and it's on Twitter in seconds.

    I am not interested in flame wars I rather vote for the jackboots that will oppress the libtards. Saves time too.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Realist

    There’s no such thing as “news”. Are you some sort of boomer?

    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Record of always being wrong maintained.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  37. @Jaakko Raipala
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.
     
    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that "Finland" is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that "Finn" is just a slave name that doesn't even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @A123

    Asian?

    I concede that I can name only one, Mika Hakkinen, The Flying Finn.

    He doesn’t look asian.

    PEACE 😇

  38. @Jaakko Raipala
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) “
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.
     
    White people make up about 5 % of the population of Finland, mostly ethnic Swedes, some ethnic Russians and then various European colonial ethnic groups that were favored by Swedish or Russian oppressors. Finland is 95 % Asian, or was recently as the African population has been rising dramatically.

    You may be confusing Finns with the Germanic elites of the country. You should understand that "Finland" is a colonial construct imposed on the native tribes by Germanic aristocrats of the Russian empire and that "Finn" is just a slave name that doesn't even exist in our languages.

    Reparations now!

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @A123

    I can only make one Mika Hakkinen, the Flying Finn. He doesn’t look asian to me.

    PEACE 😇

  39. @Dreadilk
    @Hartnell

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years. The bat shit lefty liberals right now are planting seeds for the take over that is completing it's rounds in the west.

    It does not help it that at their heart Russians seem to be just as liberal as westerners. They still have degeneracy. Their social conservatism does not seem any stronger than it was in US some 50 years ago.

    I am still optimistic for them. First 50 years is still a long time and second west's descent into madness should provide some lessons.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.

    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is now. For example, the pop group Tatu became quite popular outside in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I can’t imagine an LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    The return to traditional values in Russia seems to be relatively recent. From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.

  40. @Dreadilk
    @Hartnell

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years. The bat shit lefty liberals right now are planting seeds for the take over that is completing it's rounds in the west.

    It does not help it that at their heart Russians seem to be just as liberal as westerners. They still have degeneracy. Their social conservatism does not seem any stronger than it was in US some 50 years ago.

    I am still optimistic for them. First 50 years is still a long time and second west's descent into madness should provide some lessons.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.

    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is today. For example, the Russian pop group “Tatu” were popular in the UK in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I find it hard to imagine a LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    I think this return to traditional values in Russia is a relatively recent thing, probably a result of the process of “de-Sovietisation”.

  41. @Dreadilk
    @Hartnell

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years. The bat shit lefty liberals right now are planting seeds for the take over that is completing it's rounds in the west.

    It does not help it that at their heart Russians seem to be just as liberal as westerners. They still have degeneracy. Their social conservatism does not seem any stronger than it was in US some 50 years ago.

    I am still optimistic for them. First 50 years is still a long time and second west's descent into madness should provide some lessons.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa, @Europe Europa

    From my observation of Russia from the side they are a western civilization and just behind globohomo by some 50 years.

    The strange thing about Russia is that I think the LGBT agenda was bigger there 15-20 years ago than it is today. For example, the Russian pop group “Tatu” were popular in the UK in the late 90s-early 00s, and basically their act was that they were lesbians even though the two women were really straight. I find it hard to imagine a LGBT themed group like that coming from Russia these days.

    I think this return to traditional values in Russia is a relatively recent thing, probably a result of the process of “de-Sovietisation”/”de-Communisation”.

  42. @Dmitry
    If it's allowed to continue the debate in the last Open Thread so we don't have scroll down the page which is not easy on a phone?

    Mikhail: Those mixed-use spaces and that architecture of the pre-automobile era are not coming back. We can enjoy what’s left of that era but pursuing their return against the actual wishes of the population
     
    I would neither be optimistic. But here is a large problem which America was the leader in - that investment and consumption is happening privately, inside peoples' houses, in distant suburbs, that are only enjoyed or convenient to visit for the residents themselves.

    The public spaces - and so many communal aspect of "polis" - is impoverished by lack of dual investment by bourgeoisie* that had been normal until the automobile (due to its higher density and location still inside cities), when private housing development would create public spaces.

    *Investment in private houses (by property developers) that had created the many of the most beautiful parts of cities, e.g. from Beacon Hill in Boston, or New Town of Edinburgh, or most of West London.

    Replies: @Charlotte

    That’s a good point, but in America, car culture isn’t the only cause. When middle class people don’t feel safe in public spaces (or using public transportation), they don’t have a lot of incentive to put their tax dollars toward beautifying them or creating more public spaces.

  43. @Hartnell
    @Passer by

    Passerby,

    I can see your points and it is working for Russia's children. I know that patriotic education is quite strong there now in the schools. But what I mean is the Russian millennials. A poll recently came out that most of them would like to emigrate. Some support gay marriage and the main topics on their mind is the economy and corruption.

    The smart ones seem to be aware of the West's problems and want to find a different path for Russia. But your average IQs I think still feel the West is better then Russia and want to basically copy the West.

    So it is something I think that could come to haunt Russia 20 years down the line. Although to be fairly honest I think trying to enact a Western style welfare state in Russia would be nigh on impossible, especially at this stage.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Passer by

    Well i don’t know to whom are you talking to (there is difference in liberalism between parts of Moscow and the rest of the country, try talking to someone from Crimea for example), but politically speaking Putin is popular among young people in the country. There is no appetite in Russia for revolutions or anything like this, it is seen as something destructive for the country based on disastorous previous experiences and people don’t want to go that path again. Stability is very important. You can forget about western style divisive identity politics, that simply won’t happen. People do not want to tear their country apart and suffer again.

    I think Karlin had a thread on this recently
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/what-does-russians-generation-z-think/

    On the issue of Russian ongoing de-westernisation, tourism is interesting spot. Unlike in the past, the dominant destinations for russian tourists have become non-western countries. Most tourists coming to Russia are non-western also.

    Top russian foreign tourist destinations are Turkey, China and Thailand while most tourists visiting Russia come from China (29 %), Germany and South Korea.

    https://www.rbth.com/travel/330881-there-are-places-youll-never-see-russian-tourists

    https://www.atorus.ru/news/press-centre/new/50489.html

    Country won’t be offering new simplified e-visas for the US and UK, but will be expanding that program for the rest of the world instead.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Passer by

    Thanks passerby for giving me some hope for the Russian youth. I must confess it seems to be Russian Zoomers and the kids growing up now who are going to be the most patriotic which is a good thing as Russia desperately needs more patriotism if it is going to continue to succeed.

    However there is going to be that continued lingering demand of dealing with corruption and providing a better quality of life for the population that is going to continue to make in roads on a political front.

    The thing is about Russia is that I don't think it could ever go full on libtard due to the nature of the country and how it has historically developed.

    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.

    Therefore the only future Russia can realistically achieve is some future form of Putinism followed by more investments into the local economy. They need native babies to live in far off regions, they need more money to do this and they need to keep their tech geniuses from leaving. A future strong soft power cultural industry would really help the country's economy too.

    Just trying to repeat what the West has been doing never seems to work out for Russia in the long run. Like smart Russians have said to me, "we need to do this on our own terms and not on the West's."

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  44. @anonymous coward
    @Dreadilk

    There's no such thing as "news". Are you some sort of boomer?

    Replies: @AP

    Record of always being wrong maintained.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP

    "News" is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer? Only boomers believe in "news" or TV.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @AP

  45. If you lost readers because you are not on their preferred website any longer, you weren’t writing for them. They ended up on your posts because Zuck sent them there. Today, they are sent to wherever Zuck’s algorithms says they must go. The five thousand “readers” you had yesterday were different from the five thousand you had a day earlier, and they were mostly imbeciles. By the end of the day, those imbeciles won’t remember what they read, so why complain about their absence?

    Feel blessed that you don’t have to provide content for five thousand brainless pairs of airballs, to the benefit of the Zuck.

    I read stuff from here, from WP, from Substack, from Medium, and literally anywhere there is something new, at least as interpretation, if not as additional facts. It’s the same Ctrl+D to bookmark something. I deleted my edgy FB and Myspace posts before my first trip to America, had some troubles making it clean, and hated FB ever since.

    Is there a reason to avoid LJ, VK, and OK? I rarely go there to read this sort of subversive lit, because there is none of it in the languages I read, but the pirated movies and books are great.

  46. You’ve commodified yourself for Twitter, Facebook, and Google. You shouldn’t feel bad if they don’t want to use your FREE content to generate traffic/revenue for themselves.

    This mentality needs to stop.

    Social media is a black void, sucks energy and spits out spectacle.

    Some blubbering vagina can’t be bothered to bookmark your ass is no skin off your back.

    Shit I’m surprised you weren’t banned half a decade ago.

  47. I read your Twitter feed in an RSS reader. LOL.

    One advantage of reading tweets this way is that I did not notice your shadowbanning at all.

  48. @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Record of always being wrong maintained.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    “News” is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer? Only boomers believe in “news” or TV.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @anonymous coward

    Wonder of wonders, I actually agree quite wholeheartedly with something anon coward said.

    When we first learn of an event it is of course "new" to us, and in this sense it counts as news. However, "the news," as we know it, is without question an elaborate con. Although the vast majority of what is reported is of no real consequence whatsoever, "the news" has not only successfully trained the bulk of the populace to believe that it is of great significance, but also that if something doesn't show up on the news it either didn't happen or mustn't be important. (If you wanna have some fun with people who religiously follow the news, ask them what the top three stories of last night were. I bet not one in a thousand could tell you.)

    I am, however, impressed by the crafty methods they use to establish credibility in the public eye. My two favorites are financial news and the weather. Every news show I'm aware of tells you what the Dow and the gold price and the exchange rate did on a given day. These daily fluctuations are virtually meaningless and people with an actual interest in them weren't waiting around for "the news" to inform them, but "the news" daily reports it nonetheless. Why? Because most people don't know anything about finance and are, if anything, awed and intimidated by it; so by presenting themselves as people who do know something about it, newsmen gain credibility.

    Same thing with the weather, with its "synoptic charts," "high-pressure systems," "troughs," "cold fronts" etc -- of no interest at all and totally over the head of the average Joe who just wants to know hot or cold, rain or no rain, but it puts the idea in his head that if he ever had to know anything like that, he could turn to "the news," because they know everything.

    , @AP
    @anonymous coward


    “News” is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.
     
    So now you admit that "news" exists. Good, you are right for once. And your description is also generally correct, for once.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer
     
    Here you manage to be wrong twice in one rhetorical question. I wasn't the one you posted to the first time, and I am not a boomer.

    Only boomers believe in “news” or TV.
     
    Your implication that I am a boomer is wrong, as is your implication that I believe (all, or most) TV news. So again, wrong twice in one sentence. Your record remains solid.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  49. @A123
    @another anon


    This is the reason why, for example, this guy is not going to be cancelled.
     
    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Give the people of Finland nukes to stop white people (Russians) "
    _____

    I have only heard of one significant non-white minority group in Finland, and it may be a myth or exaggeration.


    The Gypsy Traveller Roofers. It is said they move North with the snow melt line each season and are paid under the table by those who cannot afford better help. They keep rooves over the head of poor Finns. As long as there is no other crime, local government officials tolerate or even encourage the Travellers, as long as they keep Travelling when the work is done.
     
    I have no citation for this, but the story has internal consistency. Especially if there is another function they serve moving South each year, such as agricultural or pre-winter maintenance.

    If I have been hoaxed or misinformed, please let me know. Another possibility, is that it is a historical tale about what the local Gypsy Travellers did a few hundred years ago and that context was lost before it reached me. It seems odd, but stranger things have turned out true.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @another anon

    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?

    Well, now some people are trying to cancel this guy.

    Will they succeed? Will the Great Bap be cancelled, or will he become the 2040 Democratic nominee?

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
    @another anon

    Poe's Law works both ways – if you push your agenda too hard, someone will think you're a comedy account.

    That guy might well be serious if you ask me.

    Replies: @another anon

  50. A leftwing journalist I follow on Twitter got shadowbanned. I don’t have an account, I just open twitter and type in names of people I know and follow it that way. Anyways, after he complained to their support that he’s a real journalist and they are censors, plus his friends complained, they cancelled the shadowban.

    Also, I just saw this interview with Bannon. I mostly skimmed it because I was tired and falling asleep, but the parts that I focused on for half a minute were, in the parlance of our host, reaching levels of power and neocon previously thought to be impossible.

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/bannon-tells-at-us-election-is-all-about-china/

    “My advice to the government [of China] is quite simple. Dissolve yourself. Declare immediately that you’re going to go to democratic institutions and a democratic form of government – to immediate land reform, to immediate personal property reform. Tear down the firewall. Allow the great and noble Chinese people to finally be free.

    It is outrageous in the 21st century, in starting the third decade of the 21st century, that the Chinese people, of all people on Earth, do not have free, unfettered access to the Internet, do not have land reform, do not have personal property rights, do not have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion.”

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @blatnoi

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it's all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let's hope that he really got fired for good and wasn't just given the job of designing Trump's China policy.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    , @Beckow
    @blatnoi

    When things fall apart they roll in every direction. You get spaghetti ideologies with each string going its own way. Bannon is simply sliding down the old America-freedom!!! chute. It is a tradition of blunt virtuosity, revival-like slogans, narcissistic self-worship and also, unfortunately shallow impatient aggressiveness.

    It is simple-minded but irresistible. It plays on learned half-truths, myths and nostalgia. Even very smart and critical Americans I know occasionally do it. Otherwise Bannon is a good man.

  51. Wonder if many of the Brexiteers are starting to feel a little bit nostalgic of the days when they could easily scapegaot the EU with all the possible imaginable shit and grievances? Now being freed of the horrible euroshackles and having stopped scary white immigrant hordes coming from Eastern Europe, they are experiencing post Brexit land of milk and honey as a true 51st state of USA with their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial past among still ongoing pandemic and economic downturn, lol 🙂

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @sudden death


    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial
     
    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism's more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters' knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH91-mJ0Lmg

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaVWfAUrx4

    --

    Although England is a lot more passionate about "extinction rebellion" protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxr2wS6k1ko

    Replies: @Hartnell, @sudden death, @silviosilver, @Amerimutt Golems

  52. @Daniel Chieh
    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    Replies: @Realist, @iffen

    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    Gee, don’t get too upset.

  53. @Dreadilk
    @anonymous coward

    How about no. It's my news source. Shit happens and it's on Twitter in seconds.

    I am not interested in flame wars I rather vote for the jackboots that will oppress the libtards. Saves time too.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Realist

    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.

    Not if it is shit that Twitter doesn’t want you to know about.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @Realist


    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.
     
    Yes, if the shit you interests you is Korean pop.
    Watch Twitter world trends and you will see that, on average, about 8 of 10 top trends are about Korean pop crap, at every hour of every day of every year. You will understand that Twitter is about Korean pop, and everything else is tiny smudge in the corner.

    If you do not know what is Korean pop, be thankful for your good fortune.
    , @DreadIlk
    @Realist

    I don't watch trends. I follow certain people I trust to provide information as it appears. For example like Posobeic or not you know he has sources and leaks stuff. That whole gang him Tim, Cerno, Cassandra monitor a lot of stuff and if something happens you see retweets from them within seconds. Then during events you follow who they are retweeting and you pretty much getting live reporting from the scene. You will hear about it on zerohedge or TV channels in a day at best.

    It is a simplified picture but you get how powerful this is compared to waiting for your news days later.

    Replies: @Realist

  54. @blatnoi
    A leftwing journalist I follow on Twitter got shadowbanned. I don't have an account, I just open twitter and type in names of people I know and follow it that way. Anyways, after he complained to their support that he's a real journalist and they are censors, plus his friends complained, they cancelled the shadowban.

    Also, I just saw this interview with Bannon. I mostly skimmed it because I was tired and falling asleep, but the parts that I focused on for half a minute were, in the parlance of our host, reaching levels of power and neocon previously thought to be impossible.

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/bannon-tells-at-us-election-is-all-about-china/

    "My advice to the government [of China] is quite simple. Dissolve yourself. Declare immediately that you’re going to go to democratic institutions and a democratic form of government – to immediate land reform, to immediate personal property reform. Tear down the firewall. Allow the great and noble Chinese people to finally be free.

    It is outrageous in the 21st century, in starting the third decade of the 21st century, that the Chinese people, of all people on Earth, do not have free, unfettered access to the Internet, do not have land reform, do not have personal property rights, do not have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion."

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @Beckow

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it’s all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let’s hope that he really got fired for good and wasn’t just given the job of designing Trump’s China policy.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @Jaakko Raipala

    I'm not 100% sure Bannon believes whatever he is saying himself. He is a very good political operative who can hide feelings well and perform for the cameras or journalists, and the stuff that he is saying sounds pretty unhinged for anyone working with practical policy. There might be some sort of method behind it, maybe scaring someone in China? Or more banal, he could be on the payroll of some rich Chinese dissident billionaire who likes flattery.

    , @Swedish Family
    @Jaakko Raipala


    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it’s all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let’s hope that he really got fired for good and wasn’t just given the job of designing Trump’s China policy.
     
    Yes, this is textbook neoconservatism, which is really just the intellectual cover for American imperialism. Mr. Scientism has written about this at length:

    ‘Human rights’ discourse is very similar to free trade. It claims to be ‘neutral’ and ‘fair’, but is really a demand that foreign countries disarm themselves against the hegemony of the US and its allies.

    In both ‘human rights’ and ‘free trade’ discourse, power asymmetries are ignored. When the US demands free trade, it does so knowing full well that local companies cannot compete with its own goods. Similarly, when it demands a free press, it knows it has the advantage.

    The US-led ‘human rights’ apparatus has a singular demand: that other countries unilaterally disarm and allow US propaganda organs and subversive organizations to operate within their borders. This is why it cares far more about ‘political rights’ than anything substantive.

    The arguments are always based on the US ‘standard’ (censorship not as harsh, foreign orgs allowed to operate more freely), which, as with trade, ignores the massive power asymmetry between the US and other countries. The US can only act this way because it is hegemonic.

    Nonetheless, when there’s the slightest hint of ‘foreign interference’ in the US, it tends to clamp down regardless. Pointing out this hypocrisy isn’t enough though. As with trade, even if the US wasn’t a hypocrite, it still wouldn’t be acting ‘fairly’ due to the power asymmetry.

    Russia, China, etc, if they are to remain sovereign, require more explicit state censorship, more explicit state control over organizations, etc, than the US and its allies. This is an obvious consequence of US hegemony. America doesn’t have to combat American interference.

    https://twitter.com/mr_scientism/status/1154773424524410881

     


    Any state without extensive censorship, curbs on US tech companies, and its own well-funded pro-regime media is a victim of US interference. That’s the nature of global hegemony.

    https://twitter.com/mr_scientism/status/1162517734971887616
     
    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Wignats (sic), famous for their hatred of China (?)

  55. @Realist
    @Dreadilk


    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.
     
    Not if it is shit that Twitter doesn't want you to know about.

    Replies: @another anon, @DreadIlk

    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.

    Yes, if the shit you interests you is Korean pop.
    Watch Twitter world trends and you will see that, on average, about 8 of 10 top trends are about Korean pop crap, at every hour of every day of every year. You will understand that Twitter is about Korean pop, and everything else is tiny smudge in the corner.

    If you do not know what is Korean pop, be thankful for your good fortune.

  56. Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    And the answer is:

    …spoiler space…

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin’s work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @another anon

    Finland wasn't yet very woke in the 1990s but I remember borrowing a book by Charles Darwin in high school and then realizing that it's a heavily edited version where the footnotes explaining away his racial opinions often took more space than the actual text on the page.

    He's safe for now but in a few decades nobody will remember the war to defend Darwin against Christian creationists and then he might be in trouble.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AP
    @another anon

    Atheists used every argument and propaganda trick created by English Protestant fundamentalists against the Catholic Church and Spain for their own anti-Christian campaign. There is no reason to assume modern Woke won' t reuse old Creationist arguments.

    , @neutral
    @another anon

    Dawkins and the dorks that followed him were useful idiots, they have zero influence now. They served their their purpose for the jews, Darwin will be canceled as will be every white past and present as the final goal is complete genocide of whites.

    , @Swedish Family
    @another anon


    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.
     
    Here is where you are wrong. A key feature of wokism is precisely its memorylessness and principlelessness.

    Darwin will be attacked today if it serves the goals of today. Any dissonance with past ideological positions, so far as it pops up, will be swiftly dealt with by the the media-academia complex.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @another anon

    It's incredible to think that this nonsense dominated the intellectual worlds of millions of people only a decade or two ago, yet now it's about as relevant as Pelagianism.

  57. @Jaakko Raipala
    @blatnoi

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it's all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let's hope that he really got fired for good and wasn't just given the job of designing Trump's China policy.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    I’m not 100% sure Bannon believes whatever he is saying himself. He is a very good political operative who can hide feelings well and perform for the cameras or journalists, and the stuff that he is saying sounds pretty unhinged for anyone working with practical policy. There might be some sort of method behind it, maybe scaring someone in China? Or more banal, he could be on the payroll of some rich Chinese dissident billionaire who likes flattery.

  58. @another anon
    Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    https://twitter.com/NoahCarl90/status/1271729686817759232

    And the answer is:

    ...spoiler space...

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZTtq1TfAL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin's work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @AP, @neutral, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    Finland wasn’t yet very woke in the 1990s but I remember borrowing a book by Charles Darwin in high school and then realizing that it’s a heavily edited version where the footnotes explaining away his racial opinions often took more space than the actual text on the page.

    He’s safe for now but in a few decades nobody will remember the war to defend Darwin against Christian creationists and then he might be in trouble.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Jaakko Raipala

    I remember reading books critical about Darwin in the 80's like "Darwin on Trial" by Philip Johnson and "Darwin's Black Box the Biochemial Challenge to Evolution" by Michael Behe. Books like these were extremely well written and got me to scratch my head and begin to challenge the "orthodoxy" of Darwin that ran supreme. These books still stand up well to this day.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  59. @another anon
    Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    https://twitter.com/NoahCarl90/status/1271729686817759232

    And the answer is:

    ...spoiler space...

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZTtq1TfAL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin's work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @AP, @neutral, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    Atheists used every argument and propaganda trick created by English Protestant fundamentalists against the Catholic Church and Spain for their own anti-Christian campaign. There is no reason to assume modern Woke won’ t reuse old Creationist arguments.

  60. @Passer by
    @Hartnell

    Well i don't know to whom are you talking to (there is difference in liberalism between parts of Moscow and the rest of the country, try talking to someone from Crimea for example), but politically speaking Putin is popular among young people in the country. There is no appetite in Russia for revolutions or anything like this, it is seen as something destructive for the country based on disastorous previous experiences and people don't want to go that path again. Stability is very important. You can forget about western style divisive identity politics, that simply won't happen. People do not want to tear their country apart and suffer again.

    I think Karlin had a thread on this recently
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/what-does-russians-generation-z-think/

    On the issue of Russian ongoing de-westernisation, tourism is interesting spot. Unlike in the past, the dominant destinations for russian tourists have become non-western countries. Most tourists coming to Russia are non-western also.

    Top russian foreign tourist destinations are Turkey, China and Thailand while most tourists visiting Russia come from China (29 %), Germany and South Korea.

    https://www.rbth.com/travel/330881-there-are-places-youll-never-see-russian-tourists

    https://www.atorus.ru/news/press-centre/new/50489.html

    Country won't be offering new simplified e-visas for the US and UK, but will be expanding that program for the rest of the world instead.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Thanks passerby for giving me some hope for the Russian youth. I must confess it seems to be Russian Zoomers and the kids growing up now who are going to be the most patriotic which is a good thing as Russia desperately needs more patriotism if it is going to continue to succeed.

    However there is going to be that continued lingering demand of dealing with corruption and providing a better quality of life for the population that is going to continue to make in roads on a political front.

    The thing is about Russia is that I don’t think it could ever go full on libtard due to the nature of the country and how it has historically developed.

    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.

    Therefore the only future Russia can realistically achieve is some future form of Putinism followed by more investments into the local economy. They need native babies to live in far off regions, they need more money to do this and they need to keep their tech geniuses from leaving. A future strong soft power cultural industry would really help the country’s economy too.

    Just trying to repeat what the West has been doing never seems to work out for Russia in the long run. Like smart Russians have said to me, “we need to do this on our own terms and not on the West’s.”

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Hartnell


    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.
     
    Not so fast:

    I also once met — of all things — a strongly pro-Putin Somali. While a devout Muslim himself, he had only good things to say about Orthodox Christianity; all other Christians would go to hell (and Obama, especially, would go to hell). He also dreamt of moving to Siberia, which I thought very funny, but also strangely beautiful.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/hajnal-russophilia/#comment-2222632

     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hartnell

  61. @another anon
    @A123


    Perhaps there is a comedy exception?
     
    Well, now some people are trying to cancel this guy.

    https://twitter.com/WASBAPPIN/status/1271690280270323713

    Will they succeed? Will the Great Bap be cancelled, or will he become the 2040 Democratic nominee?

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

    Poe’s Law works both ways – if you push your agenda too hard, someone will think you’re a comedy account.

    That guy might well be serious if you ask me.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @Haruto Rat


    That guy might well be serious if you ask me.
     
    Well, he is posting stuff like this for years.
    If it is troll, it is very long and elaborate one.

    https://twitter.com/WASBAPPIN/status/1270996833062379521
  62. @Haruto Rat
    @another anon

    Poe's Law works both ways – if you push your agenda too hard, someone will think you're a comedy account.

    That guy might well be serious if you ask me.

    Replies: @another anon

    That guy might well be serious if you ask me.

    Well, he is posting stuff like this for years.
    If it is troll, it is very long and elaborate one.

  63. @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry,

    That is somewhat positive to hear. Most of the major responses I was getting from Russian millennials was there desire for change and how they wanted to be like the West. So it is more heartening to know there is the possibility of a populist revival after Putin.

    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration. They see the West going down the tubes and do make fun of it. But at the same time they do have this love of democracy and regularly do talk about "freedom"...

    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Politics in Russia has been now a “mono-party democracy”, or one-party state. This is why Putin is such a boring centrist and his main job appears as trying to balance as many conflicting interests as possible. In the America equivalent, if Republicans and Democrats become a single party a couple decades ago, then there would be such a centrist president in America – who tries to please both Republicans and Democrats.

    I don’t see why the next president, will not try to continue this – which means they will have to be relatively centrist again, without any sudden changes. As this centrism is a systematic result of the different interests in the country.

    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration.

    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter – so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin.

    This is because it is an area where his policy (open borders) does not match public opinion (which wants more selective immigration) – because Putin is balancing more with the wealthy business interests, against the common people.

    Eurasian economic union – which includes completely open borders across full members -. was his favourite strategic project. (The irony of Eurasian economic union, is that countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan refused it, despite offers for them to join).

    Central Asian workers were essential for the construction industry, and this is why e.g. Patriarch Kirill is arguing that Russia should accept these immigrants even if they are Muslim. (Anyone with such large construction interests).

    The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration – something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.

    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

    In what sense do you mean by “liberal”?

    Also note the long-term trends of the country. Population is rapidly aging one – an aging population trends to conservatism and is good for future political stability.

    In the first decade of the new millennium, there had rapid embourgeoisement. However, this was mainly a produce of rising oil and commodity prices.

    The last decade, embourgeoisement of population has stagnated. There are the economic conditions for some bourgeois “liberal hipsters”, but not large enough waves of such to make so much impact on politics – Ikea can be affordable, but most of the population is far too poor to adopt the lifestyle that breeds Scandinavian politics. Economic conditions are not wealthy enough for the Western European pattern of converting rednecks to hipsters.

    There are a couple uncertain trends though.

    There is an urbanization of the population continuing, but this is not accompanied by much enrichment. What is the political consequences of the masses of people flooding into megacities, is not clear for Russia

    Also for younger generation, there is also a switch to using the internet, instead of television, for political information.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Dmitry


    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter – so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin....The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration – something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.
     
    These statements are misleading.
    Official statistics: In the first quarter of 2020, 161 150 people became citizens of the Russian Federation

    From this number, new citizens of Russia were from

    Ukraine-108 469 people,

    Tajikistan-13 619 people

    Kazakhstan-12,673 people

    Uzbekistan-5 011 people,

    Turkmenistan-424 people


    At the same time: in 2019- total 32 784 Russians went from Kz to Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.

    Russia's migration policy has many drawbacks, but it is simply absurd to equate this policy with that of Mrs Merkel and other advocates of open borders.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    Dimitry,

    This is good news to hear. I was concerned by some of the reports I had been hearing of the Russian youth, particularly with the protests against the government. However it is nice to hear there is patriotism within this group and the future isn't as libtarded as I thought it would be.

    Regarding economic prospects and liberalism, I think it ultimately depends on the country. In America, major mixing and prosperity is a no brainer but in countries such as Japan or South Korea, they prefer to still marry fellow natives or at a push, marry someone of their fellow racial group.

    Israel though is the best case scenario as they have been able to promote economic prosperity along with still promoting that nationalistic mindset and have still been successful in raising the birth rates.

    Russia is going to have to improve its economic performance and I am sure the vast majority of people desire this very strongly. It's just the case of being able to successfully do it with a patriotic mindset still in focus before the SJW disease starts to set in.

    Now in regards to immigration, I'm not entirely sure of the situation in Russia but from my own observations of Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia's more Slavic character intact compared to Western governments. He's been making noises in that direction anyway and I don't think, although this is just my opinion, that he desires the great replacement scenario like Western countries enthusiastically desire.

    To give you an example, I remember during the days of Gordon Brown that it was revealed during Tony Blair's time in office, the government had deliberately promoted and invited millions of third world migrants into the UK in order to, and I quote, 'rub the rights nose in diversity.' the government actively wanted to create a new multiracial British citizen. Social engineering to perfection, go figure.

    I hope you don't mind me asking you Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages but do you think it can successfully revive itself in the long run without mass immigration? And do you think that SJWism can be averted there?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  64. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Politics in Russia has been now a "mono-party democracy", or one-party state. This is why Putin is such a boring centrist and his main job appears as trying to balance as many conflicting interests as possible. In the America equivalent, if Republicans and Democrats become a single party a couple decades ago, then there would be such a centrist president in America - who tries to please both Republicans and Democrats.

    I don't see why the next president, will not try to continue this - which means they will have to be relatively centrist again, without any sudden changes. As this centrism is a systematic result of the different interests in the country.


    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration.
     
    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter - so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin.

    This is because it is an area where his policy (open borders) does not match public opinion (which wants more selective immigration) - because Putin is balancing more with the wealthy business interests, against the common people.

    Eurasian economic union - which includes completely open borders across full members -. was his favourite strategic project. (The irony of Eurasian economic union, is that countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan refused it, despite offers for them to join).

    Central Asian workers were essential for the construction industry, and this is why e.g. Patriarch Kirill is arguing that Russia should accept these immigrants even if they are Muslim. (Anyone with such large construction interests).

    The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration - something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.


    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

     

    In what sense do you mean by "liberal"?

    Also note the long-term trends of the country. Population is rapidly aging one - an aging population trends to conservatism and is good for future political stability.

    In the first decade of the new millennium, there had rapid embourgeoisement. However, this was mainly a produce of rising oil and commodity prices.

    The last decade, embourgeoisement of population has stagnated. There are the economic conditions for some bourgeois "liberal hipsters", but not large enough waves of such to make so much impact on politics - Ikea can be affordable, but most of the population is far too poor to adopt the lifestyle that breeds Scandinavian politics. Economic conditions are not wealthy enough for the Western European pattern of converting rednecks to hipsters.

    -

    There are a couple uncertain trends though.

    There is an urbanization of the population continuing, but this is not accompanied by much enrichment. What is the political consequences of the masses of people flooding into megacities, is not clear for Russia

    Also for younger generation, there is also a switch to using the internet, instead of television, for political information.

    Replies: @melanf, @Hartnell

    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter – so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin….The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration – something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.

    These statements are misleading.
    Official statistics: In the first quarter of 2020, 161 150 people became citizens of the Russian Federation

    From this number, new citizens of Russia were from

    Ukraine-108 469 people,

    Tajikistan-13 619 people

    Kazakhstan-12,673 people

    Uzbekistan-5 011 people,

    Turkmenistan-424 people

    At the same time: in 2019- total 32 784 Russians went from Kz to Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.

    Russia’s migration policy has many drawbacks, but it is simply absurd to equate this policy with that of Mrs Merkel and other advocates of open borders.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf


    became citizens of the Russian Federation
     
    You are talking about data of who become a citizen of Russia, not about how many people are immigrating into Russia.

    The latter (people who become citizens of the country) only represents a small minority of immigration, not just in Russia by the way. E.g. There are around 1 million Poles in the UK - however, Polish people who attain citizenship of the UK are very few. So you would deny immigration of Poles into the UK, because they didn't apply for a British citizenship? Then what word - if not "immigration" - do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.

    If your country joins the Eurasian economic union, then you don't need attaining a "work permit" for working in Russia. On the other hand, governments of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan rejected offers to join Eurasian economic union, although they were asked to join. So there you have everything you need to know about the direction of official policy, as the countries were invited to a union that implies free-movement of labour (and their government rejected it, for their own reasons).


    Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.
     
    You are implying in this text as if the majority of immigrants are Russians, which is not true from looking five seconds at their faces. The majority which apply for Russian citizenship can be Russian - here is a distinction.

    Replies: @Beckow

  65. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    I think Russian politics will likely become more "right wing", in a Western populist sense, after Putin - if this day ever happens. (Currently, most post-communist countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Estonia - have much more "right wing" populist governments, than in Russia; and I don't see how Russia's politics will not go in such a direction after Putin).

    Putin's ideology and policies, are the most similar of all politicians in the world, to Merkel - although with a bit more competent image management (so he can appear on most all sides of political spectrum), but at the same time a more "elitist" economic system than Merkel (as economic beneficiaries are more unequal in Russia than in countries like Germany).

    Putin follows open borders and multiculturalism fanaticism (similar to Merkel) too much for the long-term benefit of the country, but also he has a lot of benefits of political stability and most of the virtues of sensible and common sense leaders.

    Predictability and stability are one of the greatest virtues for country's development, so in this way Putin and Merkel, are much better leaders than their alternatives - partly as result of their stable, predictable and boring responses to everything. For the leader of a country, boring and predictable is better, than "exciting and unpredictable" - as public life is mainly a kind of co-ordination problem for citizens, and especially businesses.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Mr. Hack

    Outside of cementing his position as “leader for life” Putin has also managed to gain for himself the title of “the world’s most unpredictable leader.” Even by maneuvering himself into his current role as Russia’s eternal steward, one would have been challenged to see just how he would have gone about solidifying his chances to continuously reappear. His international moves have been no less unpredictable than his domestic ones.

  66. @Jaakko Raipala
    @another anon

    Finland wasn't yet very woke in the 1990s but I remember borrowing a book by Charles Darwin in high school and then realizing that it's a heavily edited version where the footnotes explaining away his racial opinions often took more space than the actual text on the page.

    He's safe for now but in a few decades nobody will remember the war to defend Darwin against Christian creationists and then he might be in trouble.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I remember reading books critical about Darwin in the 80’s like “Darwin on Trial” by Philip Johnson and “Darwin’s Black Box the Biochemial Challenge to Evolution” by Michael Behe. Books like these were extremely well written and got me to scratch my head and begin to challenge the “orthodoxy” of Darwin that ran supreme. These books still stand up well to this day.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Mr. Hack

    I've read plenty of debates between the Behe-types and Darwinians over the years. Basically, I would read an anti-Darwinian argument, and think yeah, this is really well argued. Then I'd read a refutation of it, and think yeah, this is really well argued. And I'd go back and forth like that. Finally, I realized I have neither the ability nor, more importantly, the interest in determining who is really right.

    We evolved just like the say we did? Okay, great. We didn't? Okay, no prob. Whatever. Who cares what our "true origins" are? However we came to be, we're here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if "God" is the reason we exist, that doesn't help us much, since I can't see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  67. @anonymous coward
    @AP

    "News" is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer? Only boomers believe in "news" or TV.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @AP

    Wonder of wonders, I actually agree quite wholeheartedly with something anon coward said.

    When we first learn of an event it is of course “new” to us, and in this sense it counts as news. However, “the news,” as we know it, is without question an elaborate con. Although the vast majority of what is reported is of no real consequence whatsoever, “the news” has not only successfully trained the bulk of the populace to believe that it is of great significance, but also that if something doesn’t show up on the news it either didn’t happen or mustn’t be important. (If you wanna have some fun with people who religiously follow the news, ask them what the top three stories of last night were. I bet not one in a thousand could tell you.)

    I am, however, impressed by the crafty methods they use to establish credibility in the public eye. My two favorites are financial news and the weather. Every news show I’m aware of tells you what the Dow and the gold price and the exchange rate did on a given day. These daily fluctuations are virtually meaningless and people with an actual interest in them weren’t waiting around for “the news” to inform them, but “the news” daily reports it nonetheless. Why? Because most people don’t know anything about finance and are, if anything, awed and intimidated by it; so by presenting themselves as people who do know something about it, newsmen gain credibility.

    Same thing with the weather, with its “synoptic charts,” “high-pressure systems,” “troughs,” “cold fronts” etc — of no interest at all and totally over the head of the average Joe who just wants to know hot or cold, rain or no rain, but it puts the idea in his head that if he ever had to know anything like that, he could turn to “the news,” because they know everything.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  68. @Jaakko Raipala
    @blatnoi

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it's all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let's hope that he really got fired for good and wasn't just given the job of designing Trump's China policy.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it’s all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let’s hope that he really got fired for good and wasn’t just given the job of designing Trump’s China policy.

    Yes, this is textbook neoconservatism, which is really just the intellectual cover for American imperialism. Mr. Scientism has written about this at length:

    ‘Human rights’ discourse is very similar to free trade. It claims to be ‘neutral’ and ‘fair’, but is really a demand that foreign countries disarm themselves against the hegemony of the US and its allies.

    In both ‘human rights’ and ‘free trade’ discourse, power asymmetries are ignored. When the US demands free trade, it does so knowing full well that local companies cannot compete with its own goods. Similarly, when it demands a free press, it knows it has the advantage.

    The US-led ‘human rights’ apparatus has a singular demand: that other countries unilaterally disarm and allow US propaganda organs and subversive organizations to operate within their borders. This is why it cares far more about ‘political rights’ than anything substantive.

    The arguments are always based on the US ‘standard’ (censorship not as harsh, foreign orgs allowed to operate more freely), which, as with trade, ignores the massive power asymmetry between the US and other countries. The US can only act this way because it is hegemonic.

    Nonetheless, when there’s the slightest hint of ‘foreign interference’ in the US, it tends to clamp down regardless. Pointing out this hypocrisy isn’t enough though. As with trade, even if the US wasn’t a hypocrite, it still wouldn’t be acting ‘fairly’ due to the power asymmetry.

    Russia, China, etc, if they are to remain sovereign, require more explicit state censorship, more explicit state control over organizations, etc, than the US and its allies. This is an obvious consequence of US hegemony. America doesn’t have to combat American interference.

    Any state without extensive censorship, curbs on US tech companies, and its own well-funded pro-regime media is a victim of US interference. That’s the nature of global hegemony.

    https://twitter.com/mr_scientism/status/1162517734971887616

    • Agree: Mitleser
  69. @another anon
    Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    https://twitter.com/NoahCarl90/status/1271729686817759232

    And the answer is:

    ...spoiler space...

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZTtq1TfAL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin's work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @AP, @neutral, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    Dawkins and the dorks that followed him were useful idiots, they have zero influence now. They served their their purpose for the jews, Darwin will be canceled as will be every white past and present as the final goal is complete genocide of whites.

  70. Israel is an example of how you can almost succeed to limit coronavirus pandemic to the first wave with “short sharp lockdown”, and then completely fail at the end, to suppress it sufficiently to stop the second wave.

    Israel has re-opened schools too early, and the second wave has begun after massive outbreaks in its schools.

    (China is trying to rescue Israel – they have finished construction of an emergency factory in Israel for production of 2 million N-95 masks a month).

    Australia seems to have succeed all the way to middle-winter, suppressing coronavirus to a single wave.

    But in New Zealand, really a single wave was suppressed to nothing. There are no new cases of coronavirus infection in the country since 19 May.

    • Agree: utu
  71. @another anon
    Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    https://twitter.com/NoahCarl90/status/1271729686817759232

    And the answer is:

    ...spoiler space...

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZTtq1TfAL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin's work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @AP, @neutral, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Here is where you are wrong. A key feature of wokism is precisely its memorylessness and principlelessness.

    Darwin will be attacked today if it serves the goals of today. Any dissonance with past ideological positions, so far as it pops up, will be swiftly dealt with by the the media-academia complex.

  72. @Hartnell
    @Passer by

    Thanks passerby for giving me some hope for the Russian youth. I must confess it seems to be Russian Zoomers and the kids growing up now who are going to be the most patriotic which is a good thing as Russia desperately needs more patriotism if it is going to continue to succeed.

    However there is going to be that continued lingering demand of dealing with corruption and providing a better quality of life for the population that is going to continue to make in roads on a political front.

    The thing is about Russia is that I don't think it could ever go full on libtard due to the nature of the country and how it has historically developed.

    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.

    Therefore the only future Russia can realistically achieve is some future form of Putinism followed by more investments into the local economy. They need native babies to live in far off regions, they need more money to do this and they need to keep their tech geniuses from leaving. A future strong soft power cultural industry would really help the country's economy too.

    Just trying to repeat what the West has been doing never seems to work out for Russia in the long run. Like smart Russians have said to me, "we need to do this on our own terms and not on the West's."

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.

    Not so fast:

    I also once met — of all things — a strongly pro-Putin Somali. While a devout Muslim himself, he had only good things to say about Orthodox Christianity; all other Christians would go to hell (and Obama, especially, would go to hell). He also dreamt of moving to Siberia, which I thought very funny, but also strangely beautiful.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/hajnal-russophilia/#comment-2222632

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Swedish Family

    A single Somali, with those views - I don't think is representative of his continent. African students in Russia look like they can enjoy their student life for a few years, but then they all (almost all) leave from Russia, as if returning from a temporary vacation. I wonder if they don't return to Africa though, but try to use their qualifications to enter to Western Europe.

    Central Asians flood Russia, only because it is convenient for work, in relation to paperwork situation with their home country. It's because it is easier for them to go to Russia, than the EU - not because of their desires to go to Russia. If the EU signed a free labour movement agreement with Central Asian countries, then they would flood into the EU instead. They are really like a "captive labour resource", due to a bureaucratic situation.

    , @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia...

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  73. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter – so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin....The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration – something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.
     
    These statements are misleading.
    Official statistics: In the first quarter of 2020, 161 150 people became citizens of the Russian Federation

    From this number, new citizens of Russia were from

    Ukraine-108 469 people,

    Tajikistan-13 619 people

    Kazakhstan-12,673 people

    Uzbekistan-5 011 people,

    Turkmenistan-424 people


    At the same time: in 2019- total 32 784 Russians went from Kz to Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.

    Russia's migration policy has many drawbacks, but it is simply absurd to equate this policy with that of Mrs Merkel and other advocates of open borders.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    became citizens of the Russian Federation

    You are talking about data of who become a citizen of Russia, not about how many people are immigrating into Russia.

    The latter (people who become citizens of the country) only represents a small minority of immigration, not just in Russia by the way. E.g. There are around 1 million Poles in the UK – however, Polish people who attain citizenship of the UK are very few. So you would deny immigration of Poles into the UK, because they didn’t apply for a British citizenship? Then what word – if not “immigration” – do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.

    If your country joins the Eurasian economic union, then you don’t need attaining a “work permit” for working in Russia. On the other hand, governments of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan rejected offers to join Eurasian economic union, although they were asked to join. So there you have everything you need to know about the direction of official policy, as the countries were invited to a union that implies free-movement of labour (and their government rejected it, for their own reasons).

    Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.

    You are implying in this text as if the majority of immigrants are Russians, which is not true from looking five seconds at their faces. The majority which apply for Russian citizenship can be Russian – here is a distinction.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...what word – if not “immigration” – do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.
     
    There is no other word. We have been manipulated to focus on terms describing irrelevant paperwork. The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

    Putin's biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin). All oligarchs throughout history have always wanted the cheapest possible labor. It is quite simple and there is a huge effort to obfuscate the basic equation: cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor. There is no mystery unless you happen to be an economist.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Dmitry

  74. The full 2020 disaster calendar including what’s upcoming

    • LOL: Brás Cubas
  75. @Swedish Family
    @Hartnell


    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.
     
    Not so fast:

    I also once met — of all things — a strongly pro-Putin Somali. While a devout Muslim himself, he had only good things to say about Orthodox Christianity; all other Christians would go to hell (and Obama, especially, would go to hell). He also dreamt of moving to Siberia, which I thought very funny, but also strangely beautiful.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/hajnal-russophilia/#comment-2222632

     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hartnell

    A single Somali, with those views – I don’t think is representative of his continent. African students in Russia look like they can enjoy their student life for a few years, but then they all (almost all) leave from Russia, as if returning from a temporary vacation. I wonder if they don’t return to Africa though, but try to use their qualifications to enter to Western Europe.

    Central Asians flood Russia, only because it is convenient for work, in relation to paperwork situation with their home country. It’s because it is easier for them to go to Russia, than the EU – not because of their desires to go to Russia. If the EU signed a free labour movement agreement with Central Asian countries, then they would flood into the EU instead. They are really like a “captive labour resource”, due to a bureaucratic situation.

  76. @Jaakko Raipala
    @blatnoi

    Remember when all the wignats were angry that Trump fired their guy based Bannon and told us that it's all evidence that Trump is controlled by neocons?

    Let's hope that he really got fired for good and wasn't just given the job of designing Trump's China policy.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    Wignats (sic), famous for their hatred of China (?)

  77. @blatnoi
    A leftwing journalist I follow on Twitter got shadowbanned. I don't have an account, I just open twitter and type in names of people I know and follow it that way. Anyways, after he complained to their support that he's a real journalist and they are censors, plus his friends complained, they cancelled the shadowban.

    Also, I just saw this interview with Bannon. I mostly skimmed it because I was tired and falling asleep, but the parts that I focused on for half a minute were, in the parlance of our host, reaching levels of power and neocon previously thought to be impossible.

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/bannon-tells-at-us-election-is-all-about-china/

    "My advice to the government [of China] is quite simple. Dissolve yourself. Declare immediately that you’re going to go to democratic institutions and a democratic form of government – to immediate land reform, to immediate personal property reform. Tear down the firewall. Allow the great and noble Chinese people to finally be free.

    It is outrageous in the 21st century, in starting the third decade of the 21st century, that the Chinese people, of all people on Earth, do not have free, unfettered access to the Internet, do not have land reform, do not have personal property rights, do not have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion."

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @Beckow

    When things fall apart they roll in every direction. You get spaghetti ideologies with each string going its own way. Bannon is simply sliding down the old America-freedom!!! chute. It is a tradition of blunt virtuosity, revival-like slogans, narcissistic self-worship and also, unfortunately shallow impatient aggressiveness.

    It is simple-minded but irresistible. It plays on learned half-truths, myths and nostalgia. Even very smart and critical Americans I know occasionally do it. Otherwise Bannon is a good man.

    • Agree: Jaakko Raipala
  78. @Mr. Hack
    @Jaakko Raipala

    I remember reading books critical about Darwin in the 80's like "Darwin on Trial" by Philip Johnson and "Darwin's Black Box the Biochemial Challenge to Evolution" by Michael Behe. Books like these were extremely well written and got me to scratch my head and begin to challenge the "orthodoxy" of Darwin that ran supreme. These books still stand up well to this day.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    I’ve read plenty of debates between the Behe-types and Darwinians over the years. Basically, I would read an anti-Darwinian argument, and think yeah, this is really well argued. Then I’d read a refutation of it, and think yeah, this is really well argued. And I’d go back and forth like that. Finally, I realized I have neither the ability nor, more importantly, the interest in determining who is really right.

    We evolved just like the say we did? Okay, great. We didn’t? Okay, no prob. Whatever. Who cares what our “true origins” are? However we came to be, we’re here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if “God” is the reason we exist, that doesn’t help us much, since I can’t see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver


    However we came to be, we’re here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if “God” is the reason we exist, that doesn’t help us much, since I can’t see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.
     
    For me, anything that can help illuminate how man got here and his role in the universe is a worthwhile project. Also, with a clearer understanding of where we came from and why we're here, we might have a better chance at addressing our current problems in a more compassionate and meaningful manner. Without a foundation of a belief in God, all is just a senseless belief in randomness, chaos and chance. We're all given "free choice", so take your pick?

    Replies: @Ano4

  79. AP says:
    @anonymous coward
    @AP

    "News" is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer? Only boomers believe in "news" or TV.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @AP

    “News” is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.

    So now you admit that “news” exists. Good, you are right for once. And your description is also generally correct, for once.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer

    Here you manage to be wrong twice in one rhetorical question. I wasn’t the one you posted to the first time, and I am not a boomer.

    Only boomers believe in “news” or TV.

    Your implication that I am a boomer is wrong, as is your implication that I believe (all, or most) TV news. So again, wrong twice in one sentence. Your record remains solid.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP


    hurr durr akshually...
     
    I couldn't care less about the date of your birth. "Boomer" in this case was an insult. Have a nice day.
  80. @Swedish Family
    @Hartnell


    Also even if they did want to open the doors and flood the country with third world immigration, I doubt millions of black subsaharan Africans are going to want to settle in say Novosibirsk.
     
    Not so fast:

    I also once met — of all things — a strongly pro-Putin Somali. While a devout Muslim himself, he had only good things to say about Orthodox Christianity; all other Christians would go to hell (and Obama, especially, would go to hell). He also dreamt of moving to Siberia, which I thought very funny, but also strangely beautiful.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/hajnal-russophilia/#comment-2222632

     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hartnell

    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia…

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Hartnell


    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia…
     
    Maybe, but they obviously like it in Sweden and Minnesota, so there is no reason to think they would rule out Siberia -- not least when the immigrants start trending more middle and working class.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  81. @another anon
    Since everyone is going to be cancelled, the question of the day is:
    Will Darwin be cancelled?

    https://twitter.com/NoahCarl90/status/1271729686817759232

    And the answer is:

    ...spoiler space...

    Darwin will not be cancelled.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZTtq1TfAL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    If you remember the oughties, if you remember the Dubya administration, if you remember the christian-atheist wars on the internet, you will know that the creationists tried hard to cancel Darwin.
    Really hard. Everything what you could say about Darwin the racist, Darwin the sadist, Darwin the sexist, Darwin the colonialist, Darwin the imperialist, Darwin the proto-fascist, Darwin the genocidist had been already said thousand times over by the creationists 20-30 years ago. They went with fine comb through Darwin's work and life and picked all possible dirt that could be picked.
    And the left of today remembers too, and no way can they agree with the Christian fundamentalists, to give them aid and accept they were right.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @AP, @neutral, @Swedish Family, @Kent Nationalist

    It’s incredible to think that this nonsense dominated the intellectual worlds of millions of people only a decade or two ago, yet now it’s about as relevant as Pelagianism.

  82. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Politics in Russia has been now a "mono-party democracy", or one-party state. This is why Putin is such a boring centrist and his main job appears as trying to balance as many conflicting interests as possible. In the America equivalent, if Republicans and Democrats become a single party a couple decades ago, then there would be such a centrist president in America - who tries to please both Republicans and Democrats.

    I don't see why the next president, will not try to continue this - which means they will have to be relatively centrist again, without any sudden changes. As this centrism is a systematic result of the different interests in the country.


    To be honest, the millennial generation of Russia does seem to be critical of immigration.
     
    Criticism of immigration policy goes to the opposition, only because Putin has been for 20 years of open-borders immigration supporter - so here is something where opposition can score popularity contests against Putin.

    This is because it is an area where his policy (open borders) does not match public opinion (which wants more selective immigration) - because Putin is balancing more with the wealthy business interests, against the common people.

    Eurasian economic union - which includes completely open borders across full members -. was his favourite strategic project. (The irony of Eurasian economic union, is that countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan refused it, despite offers for them to join).

    Central Asian workers were essential for the construction industry, and this is why e.g. Patriarch Kirill is arguing that Russia should accept these immigrants even if they are Muslim. (Anyone with such large construction interests).

    The next president after Putin, should move more to a selective immigration - something more like Malcolm Turnbull would be desirable.


    In your opinion, what is the political outlook for Russian millennials is they are not liberal?

     

    In what sense do you mean by "liberal"?

    Also note the long-term trends of the country. Population is rapidly aging one - an aging population trends to conservatism and is good for future political stability.

    In the first decade of the new millennium, there had rapid embourgeoisement. However, this was mainly a produce of rising oil and commodity prices.

    The last decade, embourgeoisement of population has stagnated. There are the economic conditions for some bourgeois "liberal hipsters", but not large enough waves of such to make so much impact on politics - Ikea can be affordable, but most of the population is far too poor to adopt the lifestyle that breeds Scandinavian politics. Economic conditions are not wealthy enough for the Western European pattern of converting rednecks to hipsters.

    -

    There are a couple uncertain trends though.

    There is an urbanization of the population continuing, but this is not accompanied by much enrichment. What is the political consequences of the masses of people flooding into megacities, is not clear for Russia

    Also for younger generation, there is also a switch to using the internet, instead of television, for political information.

    Replies: @melanf, @Hartnell

    Dimitry,

    This is good news to hear. I was concerned by some of the reports I had been hearing of the Russian youth, particularly with the protests against the government. However it is nice to hear there is patriotism within this group and the future isn’t as libtarded as I thought it would be.

    Regarding economic prospects and liberalism, I think it ultimately depends on the country. In America, major mixing and prosperity is a no brainer but in countries such as Japan or South Korea, they prefer to still marry fellow natives or at a push, marry someone of their fellow racial group.

    Israel though is the best case scenario as they have been able to promote economic prosperity along with still promoting that nationalistic mindset and have still been successful in raising the birth rates.

    Russia is going to have to improve its economic performance and I am sure the vast majority of people desire this very strongly. It’s just the case of being able to successfully do it with a patriotic mindset still in focus before the SJW disease starts to set in.

    Now in regards to immigration, I’m not entirely sure of the situation in Russia but from my own observations of Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia’s more Slavic character intact compared to Western governments. He’s been making noises in that direction anyway and I don’t think, although this is just my opinion, that he desires the great replacement scenario like Western countries enthusiastically desire.

    To give you an example, I remember during the days of Gordon Brown that it was revealed during Tony Blair’s time in office, the government had deliberately promoted and invited millions of third world migrants into the UK in order to, and I quote, ‘rub the rights nose in diversity.’ the government actively wanted to create a new multiracial British citizen. Social engineering to perfection, go figure.

    I hope you don’t mind me asking you Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages but do you think it can successfully revive itself in the long run without mass immigration? And do you think that SJWism can be averted there?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hartnell


    Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia’s more Slavic character
     
    Putin wants surely to maintain an interethnic harmony, but he also balances interests of the business, especially construction, which use a lot of foreign labour.

    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and "how low" such numbers are. But it's directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia - these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.

    Tajiks and Uzbeks and Kirgizs, are not some Norwegians and Japanese. They are not people who like to write paperwork. They don't register with authorities, apply for permits, or follow regulation. They often flood into a single apartment, as many as they can. And the authorities are generally complicit with this, and they seem to allow them to come and go, as they like.

    I think ones which would apply for Russian citizenship, are only a small minority of more integrated ones - e.g. perhaps ones of this nationality who have a Russian wife and want to settle into Russian culture.

    At the same time, the authorities are watching these communities and intervene in relation to things like drug trafficking and Islamist radicalization. So, the authorities know about them - but they usually only intervene if it's something more serious than lack of paperwork.

    If Tajikistan and Uzbekistan joined to the Eurasian economic union, it wouldn't make much difference from the present situation.


    Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages

     

    After Putin - probably something a bit more like you see in "Visegrad Group" countries, in terms of internal political views. There is an overall less redneck and nationalist population than in Ukraine, but not necessarily than in Czech Republic, Poland or Hungary. Although in Russia, it will likely always be more centrist because of a larger country, with more diverse interests that the government has to balance. In terms of foreign policy, I think the default setting is the same compromised balance between friendly and unfriendly with the West. The Primakov positions which Putin has followed are probably systematic now (rather than reflecting any particular preferences of Putin).

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Thulean Friend

  83. @sudden death
    Wonder if many of the Brexiteers are starting to feel a little bit nostalgic of the days when they could easily scapegaot the EU with all the possible imaginable shit and grievances? Now being freed of the horrible euroshackles and having stopped scary white immigrant hordes coming from Eastern Europe, they are experiencing post Brexit land of milk and honey as a true 51st state of USA with their own "native" blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial past among still ongoing pandemic and economic downturn, lol :)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial

    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    Although England is a lot more passionate about “extinction rebellion” protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    I wouldn't entirely rule out all hope for Britain as the silent majority is very furious about what is happening with the vandalisation of statues and the weak police response. I've seen a lot of patriotic tweets on twitter, showing people's rage about what is happening.

    However there is one caveat in all of this. the vast majority of these patriots subscribe to the civic nationalist view point. They like to drag out the odd patriotic black and fawn over how great, proud and patriotic multi-kulti Britain is.

    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what's done is done.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    , @sudden death
    @Dmitry


    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.
     
    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for "remembering history as it was", but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.

    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim, which on surface just stated obvious "neutral" historical fact, but nevertheless was instantly vandalised and removed shortly from public.

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom

    , @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.
     
    This is the kind of thing people say when they're looking for reasons to justify keeping a statue that already exists. But if a statue of Rhodes had never been erected, it's hard to believe anybody would try to justify erecting one today.
    , @Amerimutt Golems
    @Dmitry



    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

     

    Wikipedia's English version is kosher and his article was probably written by the same journalists from the Guardian who are inciting chaos. That's not news.

    They are upset over Brexit and the election last year.

    However, Rhodes is controversial for other reasons, namely the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    Replies: @Ano4, @songbird, @Europe Europa

  84. @Realist
    @Dreadilk


    Shit happens and it’s on Twitter in seconds.
     
    Not if it is shit that Twitter doesn't want you to know about.

    Replies: @another anon, @DreadIlk

    I don’t watch trends. I follow certain people I trust to provide information as it appears. For example like Posobeic or not you know he has sources and leaks stuff. That whole gang him Tim, Cerno, Cassandra monitor a lot of stuff and if something happens you see retweets from them within seconds. Then during events you follow who they are retweeting and you pretty much getting live reporting from the scene. You will hear about it on zerohedge or TV channels in a day at best.

    It is a simplified picture but you get how powerful this is compared to waiting for your news days later.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Realist
    @DreadIlk


    It is a simplified picture but you get how powerful this is compared to waiting for your news days later.
     
    It is an inaccurate picture but you get how misleading this is compared to waiting for more accurate news days later.

    FIFY
  85. Terrible scenes in London, British patriots getting beaten to a pulp by rioting blacks.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Europe Europa

    Take heart. There is poetic justice. Drug-addicted career criminal Rodney King drowned in his own swimming pool "in a state of drug and alcohol-induced delirium". Drug-addicted career criminal Floyd died allegedly due to police action. A moron in Virginia was very recently hit on his empty head by a confederate statue he participated in tearing down and went into coma. It does not happen often enough, but it does happen.

  86. @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    Dimitry,

    This is good news to hear. I was concerned by some of the reports I had been hearing of the Russian youth, particularly with the protests against the government. However it is nice to hear there is patriotism within this group and the future isn't as libtarded as I thought it would be.

    Regarding economic prospects and liberalism, I think it ultimately depends on the country. In America, major mixing and prosperity is a no brainer but in countries such as Japan or South Korea, they prefer to still marry fellow natives or at a push, marry someone of their fellow racial group.

    Israel though is the best case scenario as they have been able to promote economic prosperity along with still promoting that nationalistic mindset and have still been successful in raising the birth rates.

    Russia is going to have to improve its economic performance and I am sure the vast majority of people desire this very strongly. It's just the case of being able to successfully do it with a patriotic mindset still in focus before the SJW disease starts to set in.

    Now in regards to immigration, I'm not entirely sure of the situation in Russia but from my own observations of Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia's more Slavic character intact compared to Western governments. He's been making noises in that direction anyway and I don't think, although this is just my opinion, that he desires the great replacement scenario like Western countries enthusiastically desire.

    To give you an example, I remember during the days of Gordon Brown that it was revealed during Tony Blair's time in office, the government had deliberately promoted and invited millions of third world migrants into the UK in order to, and I quote, 'rub the rights nose in diversity.' the government actively wanted to create a new multiracial British citizen. Social engineering to perfection, go figure.

    I hope you don't mind me asking you Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages but do you think it can successfully revive itself in the long run without mass immigration? And do you think that SJWism can be averted there?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia’s more Slavic character

    Putin wants surely to maintain an interethnic harmony, but he also balances interests of the business, especially construction, which use a lot of foreign labour.

    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and “how low” such numbers are. But it’s directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia – these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.

    Tajiks and Uzbeks and Kirgizs, are not some Norwegians and Japanese. They are not people who like to write paperwork. They don’t register with authorities, apply for permits, or follow regulation. They often flood into a single apartment, as many as they can. And the authorities are generally complicit with this, and they seem to allow them to come and go, as they like.

    I think ones which would apply for Russian citizenship, are only a small minority of more integrated ones – e.g. perhaps ones of this nationality who have a Russian wife and want to settle into Russian culture.

    At the same time, the authorities are watching these communities and intervene in relation to things like drug trafficking and Islamist radicalization. So, the authorities know about them – but they usually only intervene if it’s something more serious than lack of paperwork.

    If Tajikistan and Uzbekistan joined to the Eurasian economic union, it wouldn’t make much difference from the present situation.

    Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages

    After Putin – probably something a bit more like you see in “Visegrad Group” countries, in terms of internal political views. There is an overall less redneck and nationalist population than in Ukraine, but not necessarily than in Czech Republic, Poland or Hungary. Although in Russia, it will likely always be more centrist because of a larger country, with more diverse interests that the government has to balance. In terms of foreign policy, I think the default setting is the same compromised balance between friendly and unfriendly with the West. The Primakov positions which Putin has followed are probably systematic now (rather than reflecting any particular preferences of Putin).

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    When it comes to immigration in Russia, am I right in thinking it is a lot more controlled there then it is in the UK? From what I am aware, most of the Uzbeks and co usually come to make money and then leave, like one big revolving door of cheap labour. There's no actual free welfare money for them so their not actually inclined to stay in Russia and pop out 7-10 kids from what I am aware.

    Even still, it is a problem that I think will be resolved with new technological advances. Within 15-20 years, I think alot of these jobs that demands cheap labour will be automated anyway so there won't be the demand to keep on importing people to do the work. I think Putin is sort of hinting at this as well. Big problems though for the West as when it hits them, they are going to have a useless supply of once cheap labour now with nothing to do.

    Regarding Russia's future, I think the Visegrad scenario is a very good future for the country. Do you have any thoughts to share regarding population mobility? From what I am aware, most of the Russian youth are leaving Siberia and elsewhere to go and live in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and “how low” such numbers are. But it’s directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia – these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.
     
    Right, but melanf's point is equally valid. Namely, that naturalisation shows intent of a regime of opening the country on a permanent basis to foreigners. Right now, what you're describing is that these people have a situation not unlike that of Gulf/GCC countries, where there are a lot of foreign workers but very few ever get citizenship. Though in Russia, it appears to be easier than in GCC countries.

    I've looked at recent statistics for Russia and there has been a sharp slowdown even in net migration flows from 2016 onwards. We're talking about hundreds of thousands fewer people coming in over the course of 2-3 years. If your theory about Putin is correct, that he's the eternal centrist looking to balance interests rather than an ideologue, then he must have picked up a rising trend of nationalism and/or immigration restrictionism.

    The newly liberalised citizenship law could impact some of this, even though it is mainly aimed at Russian-speakers. My guess is that the proportion will not change from melanf's quoted data, but the absolute numbers will.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  87. @silviosilver
    @Mr. Hack

    I've read plenty of debates between the Behe-types and Darwinians over the years. Basically, I would read an anti-Darwinian argument, and think yeah, this is really well argued. Then I'd read a refutation of it, and think yeah, this is really well argued. And I'd go back and forth like that. Finally, I realized I have neither the ability nor, more importantly, the interest in determining who is really right.

    We evolved just like the say we did? Okay, great. We didn't? Okay, no prob. Whatever. Who cares what our "true origins" are? However we came to be, we're here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if "God" is the reason we exist, that doesn't help us much, since I can't see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    However we came to be, we’re here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if “God” is the reason we exist, that doesn’t help us much, since I can’t see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.

    For me, anything that can help illuminate how man got here and his role in the universe is a worthwhile project. Also, with a clearer understanding of where we came from and why we’re here, we might have a better chance at addressing our current problems in a more compassionate and meaningful manner. Without a foundation of a belief in God, all is just a senseless belief in randomness, chaos and chance. We’re all given “free choice”, so take your pick?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    randomness, chaos and chance
     
    There truly are no such things.

    It is causality throughout.

    It is just that the causal web is too complex for us to comprehend and control.

    And when something becomes complicated enough it becomes non-linear.

    But the causality still applies.

    https://systemsinnovation.io/nonlinear-causality/

    Hence the apparent Chaos.

    But this Chaos is containing feedback loops and attractors.

    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2009/238960/

    Interestingly enough, this way of thinking can also be applied to biological systems.

    Therefore, we can also apply an analogous approach towards evolution if we think about some Phenotypic traits as the expression of some Quantitative Trait Loci "attractor".

    If we look at single genes/alleles we miss the whole picture.
  88. @DreadIlk
    @Realist

    I don't watch trends. I follow certain people I trust to provide information as it appears. For example like Posobeic or not you know he has sources and leaks stuff. That whole gang him Tim, Cerno, Cassandra monitor a lot of stuff and if something happens you see retweets from them within seconds. Then during events you follow who they are retweeting and you pretty much getting live reporting from the scene. You will hear about it on zerohedge or TV channels in a day at best.

    It is a simplified picture but you get how powerful this is compared to waiting for your news days later.

    Replies: @Realist

    It is a simplified picture but you get how powerful this is compared to waiting for your news days later.

    It is an inaccurate picture but you get how misleading this is compared to waiting for more accurate news days later.

    FIFY

  89. Idk, I think villains should get statues

    I also think these people need a taste of a 75% income tax rate.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @216

    She is very Woke for a BWG.

    It is a shame really that White males let her energy go to waste.

    It should be directed to more positive outcomes.

    Probably some Black guy will take of her sooner or later.


    https://images.app.goo.gl/NsBWL4tSNMsunse37

  90. @Dmitry
    @melanf


    became citizens of the Russian Federation
     
    You are talking about data of who become a citizen of Russia, not about how many people are immigrating into Russia.

    The latter (people who become citizens of the country) only represents a small minority of immigration, not just in Russia by the way. E.g. There are around 1 million Poles in the UK - however, Polish people who attain citizenship of the UK are very few. So you would deny immigration of Poles into the UK, because they didn't apply for a British citizenship? Then what word - if not "immigration" - do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.

    If your country joins the Eurasian economic union, then you don't need attaining a "work permit" for working in Russia. On the other hand, governments of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan rejected offers to join Eurasian economic union, although they were asked to join. So there you have everything you need to know about the direction of official policy, as the countries were invited to a union that implies free-movement of labour (and their government rejected it, for their own reasons).


    Russia, and 2171 Kazakhs migrated from Kz (to different countries, including Russia). From Kyrgistan about 40- 50% of migrants were Russians.
     
    You are implying in this text as if the majority of immigrants are Russians, which is not true from looking five seconds at their faces. The majority which apply for Russian citizenship can be Russian - here is a distinction.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …what word – if not “immigration” – do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.

    There is no other word. We have been manipulated to focus on terms describing irrelevant paperwork. The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

    Putin’s biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin). All oligarchs throughout history have always wanted the cheapest possible labor. It is quite simple and there is a huge effort to obfuscate the basic equation: cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor. There is no mystery unless you happen to be an economist.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @Beckow


    Putin’s biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin).
     
    It's hard to blame him for his pro-bussines mentality which, by the way, I wouldn't call mindless. He witnessed first hand how the Soviet Union ran itsef economically into the ground. Although, profit was "banned" for ideological reasons, all underlying deficiencies of the Soviet economy ultimatelly manifested themselves as lack of profitability. Reliving this is probably the worst nightmare for the current Russian political establishment.

    Re, guest workers, Russia needs foreign workers primarily for its civil construction projects. I doubt that even a manifold increase in worker's wages would provide sufficient number of domestic workers, while it would inevitably put an "US style" price tag on all civil construction projects.
    Civil construction is considered to be the backbone of the real economy. Labor shortages can not only delay the national infrastructure projects but also impair the Russian economy. And civil engineering will remain labor intensive for quite a long time to come.
    So, no good solutions here.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @Dmitry
    @Beckow


    The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

     

    Yes there is an Israeli term for this (although it is really "facts in the field"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facts_on_the_ground

    cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor.
     
    Although it is not all benefits from the cheap labour, are to the business owner - in the context of a competitive market where such an owner doesn't have a monopoly.

    Consumers in Russia, benefit for low costs here, to the extent you can buy a shiny small new apartment, in not such a terrible location, for the price of the Tesla Model 3 - while in North-Western Europe, you might be able to buy the small barn for this price.

    It is objectively, one of the successes in Russia, that people can afford currently to upgrade their housing. Although people complain that they will be indebted to the bank for years, there is nothing like a "housing crisis" in Russia, that there is in North-West Europe. And we can say this, despite the new housing itself is often far from an ideal, may have terrible architecture, too much density, and lacking infrastructure.
  91. @Daniel Chieh
    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    Replies: @Realist, @iffen

    This unpersonning is getting really quite annoying.

    Yeah, Dan, it kinda makes me wish I was a person so I could get in on the action.

    • Agree: Haruto Rat
  92. @Dmitry
    @sudden death


    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial
     
    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism's more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters' knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH91-mJ0Lmg

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaVWfAUrx4

    --

    Although England is a lot more passionate about "extinction rebellion" protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxr2wS6k1ko

    Replies: @Hartnell, @sudden death, @silviosilver, @Amerimutt Golems

    I wouldn’t entirely rule out all hope for Britain as the silent majority is very furious about what is happening with the vandalisation of statues and the weak police response. I’ve seen a lot of patriotic tweets on twitter, showing people’s rage about what is happening.

    However there is one caveat in all of this. the vast majority of these patriots subscribe to the civic nationalist view point. They like to drag out the odd patriotic black and fawn over how great, proud and patriotic multi-kulti Britain is.

    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what’s done is done.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell


    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what’s done is done.
     
    I find that even most "right wing" British people have no time for ethnic nationalism. I don't think most are even particularly opposed to non-white immigration as long as the immigrants share our "values". That basically means anyone but Muslims.

    I'd say we are heading towards an American or Brazilian "melting pot" style nationalism.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  93. Do you think there is a minimum IQ threshold required to produce grammatical Russian? I went to school with people who could not even produce correctly-inflected English, and Russian would be quite a bit harder for them. cf https://www.bbc.com/pidgin

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Wei

    I don't think there's much correlation between complexity of native language and IQ, plenty of low IQ people speak grammatically complex languages, such as Arabic and plenty of high IQ people speak grammatically simple languages such as Chinese.

    The vast majority of what native speakers say is repetition, set phrases almost, especially lower IQ speakers. They don't really understand the mechanics of what they're saying, they just know the meaning. I don't think Russian cases are generally any more difficult for a native Russian speaker with an IQ of 90 than English grammar is for a native English speak with an IQ of 90, the vast majority of cases are just learnt by repetition.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Wei

    Russian grammar was studied for many years in school in Soviet times. School was obligatory up to eighth grade. Still, most native speakers cannot speak or write grammatically.

  94. @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    I wouldn't entirely rule out all hope for Britain as the silent majority is very furious about what is happening with the vandalisation of statues and the weak police response. I've seen a lot of patriotic tweets on twitter, showing people's rage about what is happening.

    However there is one caveat in all of this. the vast majority of these patriots subscribe to the civic nationalist view point. They like to drag out the odd patriotic black and fawn over how great, proud and patriotic multi-kulti Britain is.

    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what's done is done.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what’s done is done.

    I find that even most “right wing” British people have no time for ethnic nationalism. I don’t think most are even particularly opposed to non-white immigration as long as the immigrants share our “values”. That basically means anyone but Muslims.

    I’d say we are heading towards an American or Brazilian “melting pot” style nationalism.

    • Agree: Hartnell
    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Europe Europa

    Yeah I am in agreement. The UK has no time for ethnic nationalism. The society as a whole has pretty much accepted the multi-ethnic society and will fight to defend it.

    If you actually look at how the UK society is now developing, it really does resemble the old Anglo-Saxon invasion. The native white Brits have become like the ancient Celts, living on the outskirts in their villages and towns where as the cities have become the hot spots of multi-kulti Britain. I always felt that it was like living on a native reservation and as soon as you left the shires, the reality sadly hit you in the face.

    To be honest, though there is still some potential light on the horizon for the UK at least. I think people overall are fed up of mass immigration because of the economic impact it is having. It is simply unsustainable for the country. I think at some point the country is going to drift ever more to the right and start to restrict immigrants when there is a sufficient pressure point available (think UK and Brexit). Eventually the government will start having to cut the tap on welfare spending and will adopt probably a more anti-islamic point of view.

    With this in mind, we may see sort of a voluntary repatriation, particularly amongst the muslim community. The country in effect could whiten up. I think that the UK is starting to reach its peak of being able to support a large population and more populism will start to become the order of the day there.

  95. @Wei
    Do you think there is a minimum IQ threshold required to produce grammatical Russian? I went to school with people who could not even produce correctly-inflected English, and Russian would be quite a bit harder for them. cf https://www.bbc.com/pidgin

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AnonFromTN

    I don’t think there’s much correlation between complexity of native language and IQ, plenty of low IQ people speak grammatically complex languages, such as Arabic and plenty of high IQ people speak grammatically simple languages such as Chinese.

    The vast majority of what native speakers say is repetition, set phrases almost, especially lower IQ speakers. They don’t really understand the mechanics of what they’re saying, they just know the meaning. I don’t think Russian cases are generally any more difficult for a native Russian speaker with an IQ of 90 than English grammar is for a native English speak with an IQ of 90, the vast majority of cases are just learnt by repetition.

  96. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell


    Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia’s more Slavic character
     
    Putin wants surely to maintain an interethnic harmony, but he also balances interests of the business, especially construction, which use a lot of foreign labour.

    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and "how low" such numbers are. But it's directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia - these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.

    Tajiks and Uzbeks and Kirgizs, are not some Norwegians and Japanese. They are not people who like to write paperwork. They don't register with authorities, apply for permits, or follow regulation. They often flood into a single apartment, as many as they can. And the authorities are generally complicit with this, and they seem to allow them to come and go, as they like.

    I think ones which would apply for Russian citizenship, are only a small minority of more integrated ones - e.g. perhaps ones of this nationality who have a Russian wife and want to settle into Russian culture.

    At the same time, the authorities are watching these communities and intervene in relation to things like drug trafficking and Islamist radicalization. So, the authorities know about them - but they usually only intervene if it's something more serious than lack of paperwork.

    If Tajikistan and Uzbekistan joined to the Eurasian economic union, it wouldn't make much difference from the present situation.


    Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages

     

    After Putin - probably something a bit more like you see in "Visegrad Group" countries, in terms of internal political views. There is an overall less redneck and nationalist population than in Ukraine, but not necessarily than in Czech Republic, Poland or Hungary. Although in Russia, it will likely always be more centrist because of a larger country, with more diverse interests that the government has to balance. In terms of foreign policy, I think the default setting is the same compromised balance between friendly and unfriendly with the West. The Primakov positions which Putin has followed are probably systematic now (rather than reflecting any particular preferences of Putin).

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Thulean Friend

    When it comes to immigration in Russia, am I right in thinking it is a lot more controlled there then it is in the UK? From what I am aware, most of the Uzbeks and co usually come to make money and then leave, like one big revolving door of cheap labour. There’s no actual free welfare money for them so their not actually inclined to stay in Russia and pop out 7-10 kids from what I am aware.

    Even still, it is a problem that I think will be resolved with new technological advances. Within 15-20 years, I think alot of these jobs that demands cheap labour will be automated anyway so there won’t be the demand to keep on importing people to do the work. I think Putin is sort of hinting at this as well. Big problems though for the West as when it hits them, they are going to have a useless supply of once cheap labour now with nothing to do.

    Regarding Russia’s future, I think the Visegrad scenario is a very good future for the country. Do you have any thoughts to share regarding population mobility? From what I am aware, most of the Russian youth are leaving Siberia and elsewhere to go and live in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.
     
    Are you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is? In all his numerous posts I've read, I've seen no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia's racial makeup.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  97. @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell


    If I am to offer an opinion, I think that the Anglo-Saxon era in Britain is over. Ethnic nationalism is pretty much dead in the UK. I think the country will eventually revive on some kind of Johnsonian patriotic civic nationalist platform but overall the diversity is there to stay. Which is a shame but what’s done is done.
     
    I find that even most "right wing" British people have no time for ethnic nationalism. I don't think most are even particularly opposed to non-white immigration as long as the immigrants share our "values". That basically means anyone but Muslims.

    I'd say we are heading towards an American or Brazilian "melting pot" style nationalism.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Yeah I am in agreement. The UK has no time for ethnic nationalism. The society as a whole has pretty much accepted the multi-ethnic society and will fight to defend it.

    If you actually look at how the UK society is now developing, it really does resemble the old Anglo-Saxon invasion. The native white Brits have become like the ancient Celts, living on the outskirts in their villages and towns where as the cities have become the hot spots of multi-kulti Britain. I always felt that it was like living on a native reservation and as soon as you left the shires, the reality sadly hit you in the face.

    To be honest, though there is still some potential light on the horizon for the UK at least. I think people overall are fed up of mass immigration because of the economic impact it is having. It is simply unsustainable for the country. I think at some point the country is going to drift ever more to the right and start to restrict immigrants when there is a sufficient pressure point available (think UK and Brexit). Eventually the government will start having to cut the tap on welfare spending and will adopt probably a more anti-islamic point of view.

    With this in mind, we may see sort of a voluntary repatriation, particularly amongst the muslim community. The country in effect could whiten up. I think that the UK is starting to reach its peak of being able to support a large population and more populism will start to become the order of the day there.

  98. – Чего, говоришь, они отмечают?
    – День независимости России, государь
    – От кого?
    – Не знаю, государь.

    – What did you say are they celebrating?
    – Independence Day of Russia, sovereign
    – From whom?
    – I do not know, sovereign.

    It is humorous, but I don’t think June 12 is formally known in Russia as День независимости России (Lit: Day of Independence of Russia), but rather as День России – Russia Day, or Day of adoption of the declaration of state sovereignty of RSFSR (День принятия Декларации о государственном суверенитете РСФСР).

    Many Russians think that this holiday is Russia’s Independence Day, but the holiday has never had such a name in official documents. According to the survey of Levada Center in May 2003, 65 percent of the respondents named the holiday as the Independence Day of Russia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_Day

    As this comes from not-always-reliable Wikipedia, I’m certainly ready to be corrected on the true and proper designation in Russia for June 12, but not on the grammar. Any typos are likely my own.

    Кто кого? Who whom?

    Весь вопрос—кто кого опередит?
    “The whole question is—who will overtake whom?”

    — V. Lenin, 1921

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F

    Supposedly, this question was included in prominent speeches by Soviet Communist luminaries Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky, speaking of language police.

  99. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...what word – if not “immigration” – do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.
     
    There is no other word. We have been manipulated to focus on terms describing irrelevant paperwork. The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

    Putin's biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin). All oligarchs throughout history have always wanted the cheapest possible labor. It is quite simple and there is a huge effort to obfuscate the basic equation: cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor. There is no mystery unless you happen to be an economist.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Dmitry

    Putin’s biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin).

    It’s hard to blame him for his pro-bussines mentality which, by the way, I wouldn’t call mindless. He witnessed first hand how the Soviet Union ran itsef economically into the ground. Although, profit was “banned” for ideological reasons, all underlying deficiencies of the Soviet economy ultimatelly manifested themselves as lack of profitability. Reliving this is probably the worst nightmare for the current Russian political establishment.

    Re, guest workers, Russia needs foreign workers primarily for its civil construction projects. I doubt that even a manifold increase in worker’s wages would provide sufficient number of domestic workers, while it would inevitably put an “US style” price tag on all civil construction projects.
    Civil construction is considered to be the backbone of the real economy. Labor shortages can not only delay the national infrastructure projects but also impair the Russian economy. And civil engineering will remain labor intensive for quite a long time to come.
    So, no good solutions here.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Simpleguest

    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades' blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around. The tragedy of the last years is that supposedly very smart people refuse to see it. The market capitalist economies based on profit have always existed and their enthusiasts have also tried to explain them with ideology. They don't usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent. Most of the other time the so-called free market nirvanas resemble more India, Victorian England or worse. We are obviously again heading there.

    Good leaders maintain distance from ideology. You might be correct about the civil construction and its need for cheap external labor. But it is just a beginning - the current sorry state of most of Western Europe started with gastarbeiters in the 60's and 70's.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Simpleguest

  100. @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    When it comes to immigration in Russia, am I right in thinking it is a lot more controlled there then it is in the UK? From what I am aware, most of the Uzbeks and co usually come to make money and then leave, like one big revolving door of cheap labour. There's no actual free welfare money for them so their not actually inclined to stay in Russia and pop out 7-10 kids from what I am aware.

    Even still, it is a problem that I think will be resolved with new technological advances. Within 15-20 years, I think alot of these jobs that demands cheap labour will be automated anyway so there won't be the demand to keep on importing people to do the work. I think Putin is sort of hinting at this as well. Big problems though for the West as when it hits them, they are going to have a useless supply of once cheap labour now with nothing to do.

    Regarding Russia's future, I think the Visegrad scenario is a very good future for the country. Do you have any thoughts to share regarding population mobility? From what I am aware, most of the Russian youth are leaving Siberia and elsewhere to go and live in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.

    Are you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is? In all his numerous posts I’ve read, I’ve seen no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup

     

    Sure, I am extremely anti-racist and don't judge people by nationality. If I wasn't, it would be strange to be a regular writer on this multiracial website - which is owned and named after a brown American Jew whose face looks suitable for the streets of Istanbul or Cairo, or to be following a Middle Eastern looking blogger of Caucasian aristocratic roots.

    Neither I don't remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like "I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup." Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    On the other hand, my political views are more "right wing" than most people I talk to, across different countries, and in both personal and professional life. I say one of main mistakes by Putin - his open immigration borders policy, along with his external policy. Similarly, main thing I oppose about politics in Western Europe (open borders immigration, as opposed to selective immigration). Main mistake of Merkel - open borders immigration. Etc. Those views to oppose open borders immigration are not to say, that I support racism - I am a very anti-racist person in reality. More interesting European connection would be to a Chinese person who can play a Mozart sonata, than some Austrian who does not know their culture - i.e. the important thing is the civilization level.


    you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is?

     

    My racial makeup is Russian with Jewish roots. I would like to use these Yiddish brackets you gave to my name. But I sadly can't claim to be a real Jew, as Jewish roots are that my grandfather has Jewish roots (whereas to be a Jew in the real sense, has to be matrilineal). By family record I am 87,5% Russian and 12,5% Jewish. However, when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn't know they were descended from.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hartnell, @silviosilver

  101. @Europe Europa
    Terrible scenes in London, British patriots getting beaten to a pulp by rioting blacks.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Take heart. There is poetic justice. Drug-addicted career criminal Rodney King drowned in his own swimming pool “in a state of drug and alcohol-induced delirium”. Drug-addicted career criminal Floyd died allegedly due to police action. A moron in Virginia was very recently hit on his empty head by a confederate statue he participated in tearing down and went into coma. It does not happen often enough, but it does happen.

  102. @Simpleguest
    @Beckow


    Putin’s biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin).
     
    It's hard to blame him for his pro-bussines mentality which, by the way, I wouldn't call mindless. He witnessed first hand how the Soviet Union ran itsef economically into the ground. Although, profit was "banned" for ideological reasons, all underlying deficiencies of the Soviet economy ultimatelly manifested themselves as lack of profitability. Reliving this is probably the worst nightmare for the current Russian political establishment.

    Re, guest workers, Russia needs foreign workers primarily for its civil construction projects. I doubt that even a manifold increase in worker's wages would provide sufficient number of domestic workers, while it would inevitably put an "US style" price tag on all civil construction projects.
    Civil construction is considered to be the backbone of the real economy. Labor shortages can not only delay the national infrastructure projects but also impair the Russian economy. And civil engineering will remain labor intensive for quite a long time to come.
    So, no good solutions here.

    Replies: @Beckow

    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades’ blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around. The tragedy of the last years is that supposedly very smart people refuse to see it. The market capitalist economies based on profit have always existed and their enthusiasts have also tried to explain them with ideology. They don’t usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent. Most of the other time the so-called free market nirvanas resemble more India, Victorian England or worse. We are obviously again heading there.

    Good leaders maintain distance from ideology. You might be correct about the civil construction and its need for cheap external labor. But it is just a beginning – the current sorry state of most of Western Europe started with gastarbeiters in the 60’s and 70’s.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Beckow


    They don’t usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent.
     
    I doubt this statement is driven by anything but your ideological inclination, but even granting it for the sake of argument, it still allows that there are times when, even by the high standards you set for it, the market economy performed satisfactorily. In contrast, communist command economies were by my (rather low!) standards a moral and empirical turd from start to finish, including in their best years.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @Simpleguest
    @Beckow


    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades’ blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around.
     
    Truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle. Without elaborating further, there are many segments (or services) of the society that can't be based on profit only or have full exposure to "free market forces". The rest can and should.
    Nothing should be set in stone, though, because people are very good at corrupting (almost) everything.
  103. @Wei
    Do you think there is a minimum IQ threshold required to produce grammatical Russian? I went to school with people who could not even produce correctly-inflected English, and Russian would be quite a bit harder for them. cf https://www.bbc.com/pidgin

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AnonFromTN

    Russian grammar was studied for many years in school in Soviet times. School was obligatory up to eighth grade. Still, most native speakers cannot speak or write grammatically.

  104. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell


    Putin, he does seem to be more concerned about keeping Russia’s more Slavic character
     
    Putin wants surely to maintain an interethnic harmony, but he also balances interests of the business, especially construction, which use a lot of foreign labour.

    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and "how low" such numbers are. But it's directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia - these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.

    Tajiks and Uzbeks and Kirgizs, are not some Norwegians and Japanese. They are not people who like to write paperwork. They don't register with authorities, apply for permits, or follow regulation. They often flood into a single apartment, as many as they can. And the authorities are generally complicit with this, and they seem to allow them to come and go, as they like.

    I think ones which would apply for Russian citizenship, are only a small minority of more integrated ones - e.g. perhaps ones of this nationality who have a Russian wife and want to settle into Russian culture.

    At the same time, the authorities are watching these communities and intervene in relation to things like drug trafficking and Islamist radicalization. So, the authorities know about them - but they usually only intervene if it's something more serious than lack of paperwork.

    If Tajikistan and Uzbekistan joined to the Eurasian economic union, it wouldn't make much difference from the present situation.


    Dimitry but do you have any predictions for Russia? You made some good points about the country probably going more conservative as it ages

     

    After Putin - probably something a bit more like you see in "Visegrad Group" countries, in terms of internal political views. There is an overall less redneck and nationalist population than in Ukraine, but not necessarily than in Czech Republic, Poland or Hungary. Although in Russia, it will likely always be more centrist because of a larger country, with more diverse interests that the government has to balance. In terms of foreign policy, I think the default setting is the same compromised balance between friendly and unfriendly with the West. The Primakov positions which Putin has followed are probably systematic now (rather than reflecting any particular preferences of Putin).

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Thulean Friend

    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and “how low” such numbers are. But it’s directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia – these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.

    Right, but melanf’s point is equally valid. Namely, that naturalisation shows intent of a regime of opening the country on a permanent basis to foreigners. Right now, what you’re describing is that these people have a situation not unlike that of Gulf/GCC countries, where there are a lot of foreign workers but very few ever get citizenship. Though in Russia, it appears to be easier than in GCC countries.

    I’ve looked at recent statistics for Russia and there has been a sharp slowdown even in net migration flows from 2016 onwards. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands fewer people coming in over the course of 2-3 years. If your theory about Putin is correct, that he’s the eternal centrist looking to balance interests rather than an ideologue, then he must have picked up a rising trend of nationalism and/or immigration restrictionism.

    The newly liberalised citizenship law could impact some of this, even though it is mainly aimed at Russian-speakers. My guess is that the proportion will not change from melanf’s quoted data, but the absolute numbers will.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    I am not going to dramatize the situation with immigration in Russia is "so terrible and bad" - I even see the positive side, of lowering costs in e.g. construction industry. If you travel in other countries, you know how residential construction in Russia is unusually rapid and cheap (compared to other countries).

    Secondly, the point is about the direction of official policy. Most immigrants don't apply for Russian citizenship, because they don't want or need it for their purposes. It's not because there is a selective immigration system for them (there is not).

    There is an almost pure "open borders" situation. This is borders which should be closed down. There might be a need for labour from those countries. But the chaotic open borders - where immigrants flood in unregulated, and then even result in a lot of additional costs of monitoring their Islamicist radicalization, drug trafficking, etc. These are not minor issues either - things like the HIV epidemic are direct result of the latter.

  105. As I have long argued, excess deaths is the cleanest and best metric we have. Moscow’s excess deaths come in at 58% in May. Stockholm had ~88% last I looked. NYC had something like 270%.

    If you look at the excellent FT coronatracker then Sweden had 29% excess mortality, slightly more than France(27%) and much less than the UK (57%) which both instituted a hamfisted lockdown. The UK’s numbers are actually worse than Italy (47%) and on par with Spain (57%). Quite remarkable how badly they’ve done.

    Interestingly, Peru of all places seem to have been the hardest hit (123%). My guess is that there may be some genetic factor at play there, they still have a large indigenous population.

    Though as I’ve also long argued, we won’t know the final score until late next year at the earliest. So these numbers are just an early scorecard for how countries handled the initial wave. There will be more.

  106. @AP
    @anonymous coward


    “News” is just a manufactured (((narrative))) cooked up by professional liars.
     
    So now you admit that "news" exists. Good, you are right for once. And your description is also generally correct, for once.

    I ask again, are you some sort of boomer
     
    Here you manage to be wrong twice in one rhetorical question. I wasn't the one you posted to the first time, and I am not a boomer.

    Only boomers believe in “news” or TV.
     
    Your implication that I am a boomer is wrong, as is your implication that I believe (all, or most) TV news. So again, wrong twice in one sentence. Your record remains solid.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    hurr durr akshually…

    I couldn’t care less about the date of your birth. “Boomer” in this case was an insult. Have a nice day.

  107. @Beckow
    @Simpleguest

    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades' blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around. The tragedy of the last years is that supposedly very smart people refuse to see it. The market capitalist economies based on profit have always existed and their enthusiasts have also tried to explain them with ideology. They don't usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent. Most of the other time the so-called free market nirvanas resemble more India, Victorian England or worse. We are obviously again heading there.

    Good leaders maintain distance from ideology. You might be correct about the civil construction and its need for cheap external labor. But it is just a beginning - the current sorry state of most of Western Europe started with gastarbeiters in the 60's and 70's.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Simpleguest

    They don’t usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent.

    I doubt this statement is driven by anything but your ideological inclination, but even granting it for the sake of argument, it still allows that there are times when, even by the high standards you set for it, the market economy performed satisfactorily. In contrast, communist command economies were by my (rather low!) standards a moral and empirical turd from start to finish, including in their best years.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @silviosilver

    I agree that there are times when market capitalist economy performs well - today we are not living in one of those times. There are many other historical examples, but Western Europe after WWII and US were probably the best it can get, partially due to the fear that WWII and radical socialism instilled in the elites. I don't dismiss it, but when something stops working rational people look for solutions and don't just stick with slogans and ideology. For example 'market economy' didn't work well in the 30's, and it has never worked well in places where market economy has been endemic for millennia like India or Africa (everyone agrees with that).

    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70's and 80's they worked quite well until they run out of steam. You can get on your high moral horse and blabber about Khmer Rouge or Stalin, it doesn't change the way it was in those places at that time. And there are probably other examples. I could say that your 'ideology' and probably a lifetime of constant brainwashing will never allow you to see that reality. Putin also for some reason doesn't seem to get it.

    Replies: @AP

  108. @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver


    However we came to be, we’re here now; and what we decide to do from here on out is much more important than knowing precisely how we got here. Even if “God” is the reason we exist, that doesn’t help us much, since I can’t see any reason to trust the people who claim to be his spokesmen.
     
    For me, anything that can help illuminate how man got here and his role in the universe is a worthwhile project. Also, with a clearer understanding of where we came from and why we're here, we might have a better chance at addressing our current problems in a more compassionate and meaningful manner. Without a foundation of a belief in God, all is just a senseless belief in randomness, chaos and chance. We're all given "free choice", so take your pick?

    Replies: @Ano4

    randomness, chaos and chance

    There truly are no such things.

    It is causality throughout.

    It is just that the causal web is too complex for us to comprehend and control.

    And when something becomes complicated enough it becomes non-linear.

    But the causality still applies.

    https://systemsinnovation.io/nonlinear-causality/

    Hence the apparent Chaos.

    But this Chaos is containing feedback loops and attractors.

    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2009/238960/

    Interestingly enough, this way of thinking can also be applied to biological systems.

    Therefore, we can also apply an analogous approach towards evolution if we think about some Phenotypic traits as the expression of some Quantitative Trait Loci “attractor”.

    If we look at single genes/alleles we miss the whole picture.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  109. @Dmitry
    @sudden death


    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial
     
    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism's more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters' knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH91-mJ0Lmg

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaVWfAUrx4

    --

    Although England is a lot more passionate about "extinction rebellion" protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxr2wS6k1ko

    Replies: @Hartnell, @sudden death, @silviosilver, @Amerimutt Golems

    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.

    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for “remembering history as it was”, but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.

    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim, which on surface just stated obvious “neutral” historical fact, but nevertheless was instantly vandalised and removed shortly from public.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @sudden death


    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim
     
    Here is a trophy monument to Napoleon in the Moscow Kremlin.

    https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/150/1508890/858x540.jpg

    In the Petersburg artillery Museum, I also saw an exhibition of personal belongings of Napoleon, no one is going to destroy these relics of the past. But of course Hitler and Mannerheim are a very different case
    , @dfordoom
    @sudden death


    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for “remembering history as it was”, but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.
     
    When you erect a statue to an historical figure you are in effect engaging in propaganda. If you erect a statue of Cromwell or Churchill or Bismarck or de Gaulle or George Washington or Robert E. Lee you are engaging in propaganda. It doesn't have to be an explicitly political figure - a statue of Darwin would also be propaganda.

    We only notice these things as propaganda when they're done by our political enemies.

    And toppling statues is a way of letting a defeated enemy know that he has been well and truly defeated. When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It's funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn't complain that it was vandalism.

    Replies: @AP

  110. @216
    Idk, I think villains should get statues

    https://twitter.com/taylorswift13/status/1271534728777252868

    I also think these people need a taste of a 75% income tax rate.

    Replies: @Ano4

    She is very Woke for a BWG.

    It is a shame really that White males let her energy go to waste.

    It should be directed to more positive outcomes.

    Probably some Black guy will take of her sooner or later.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/NsBWL4tSNMsunse37

  111. @Beckow
    @Simpleguest

    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades' blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around. The tragedy of the last years is that supposedly very smart people refuse to see it. The market capitalist economies based on profit have always existed and their enthusiasts have also tried to explain them with ideology. They don't usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent. Most of the other time the so-called free market nirvanas resemble more India, Victorian England or worse. We are obviously again heading there.

    Good leaders maintain distance from ideology. You might be correct about the civil construction and its need for cheap external labor. But it is just a beginning - the current sorry state of most of Western Europe started with gastarbeiters in the 60's and 70's.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Simpleguest

    The business-uber-alles is also a dead-end street and the comrades’ blind faith in the sad, dysfunctional Soviet economy was not the only mindless ideology around.

    Truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle. Without elaborating further, there are many segments (or services) of the society that can’t be based on profit only or have full exposure to “free market forces”. The rest can and should.
    Nothing should be set in stone, though, because people are very good at corrupting (almost) everything.

  112. A Chicago black woman states that she feels safe walking through the streets of Chicago’s “Ukrainian Village”, while at the same time local Ukrainian residents board up their businesses and cultural centers in order to try and minimize any potential destruction from the current unrest:

    As a resident of West Humboldt Park, not far from the Ukrainian Village, she frequently visits the neighborhood. “I feel much less danger in the Ukrainian Village… the folks in this neighborhood shy away from me; they’re not friendly,” Ms. Birmingham said.

    Local Ukrainian civic leader, Ms. Farion compares the plight of American blacks to those of Ukrainians under Soviet control:

    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”

    http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/wp-content/uploads/current-pdf/The_Ukrainian_Weekly_2020-23.pdf

    • LOL: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    Local Ukrainian civic leader, Ms. Farion compares the plight of American blacks to those of Ukrainians under Soviet control:
     
    Trolling much?

    😁
    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”
     
    I've come across such stupidity, from a minority of diaspora Ukrainians, mostly from Canada.

    Most Ukrainians seem to be opposed to these protests. Which makes sense, given that 10,000s of Ukrainian kulaks and educated people were killed because they were "privileged" and millions were starved to death by a genocidal actions of the urban leftists against the rural conservative people. The killers then, like the BLM leaders and antifa now, were leftists and Marxists.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

  113. I fear nationalism is dead in England, the blacks basically destroyed what is left of it in one violent afternoon.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Europe Europa


    I fear nationalism is dead in England
     
    That's not entirely a bad thing. British nationalism was very tied up with imperialism. It still is. There are still Britons who fantasise that Britain remains a Great Power. That's why they get mixed up in America's wars in the Middle East. It's a kind of vicarious imperialism.

    It would be a good thing if the UK split up into its component parts. Maybe they would give up their pathetic fantasies and maybe a healthy English nationalism would arise.

    Large European nation states always seemed to end up with a brand of nationalism that morphed into imperialism.

    Of course American nationalism is pure imperialism.

    Nationalism is a two-edged sword.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  114. @sudden death
    @Dmitry


    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.
     
    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for "remembering history as it was", but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.

    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim, which on surface just stated obvious "neutral" historical fact, but nevertheless was instantly vandalised and removed shortly from public.

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom

    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim

    Here is a trophy monument to Napoleon in the Moscow Kremlin.

    In the Petersburg artillery Museum, I also saw an exhibition of personal belongings of Napoleon, no one is going to destroy these relics of the past. But of course Hitler and Mannerheim are a very different case

  115. @Mr. Hack
    A Chicago black woman states that she feels safe walking through the streets of Chicago's "Ukrainian Village", while at the same time local Ukrainian residents board up their businesses and cultural centers in order to try and minimize any potential destruction from the current unrest:

    As a resident of West Humboldt Park, not far from the Ukrainian Village, she frequently visits the neighborhood. “I feel much less danger in the Ukrainian Village… the folks in this neighborhood shy away from me; they’re not friendly,” Ms. Birmingham said.

     

    Local Ukrainian civic leader, Ms. Farion compares the plight of American blacks to those of Ukrainians under Soviet control:

    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”
     
    http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/wp-content/uploads/current-pdf/The_Ukrainian_Weekly_2020-23.pdf

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    Local Ukrainian civic leader, Ms. Farion compares the plight of American blacks to those of Ukrainians under Soviet control:

    Trolling much?

    😁

  116. At least there’s still working class white British men prepared to go into battle against blacks. I’ve seen no examples of white Americans doing this or trying to defend their streets, especially not unarmed.

    It seems there are no tough working class white Americans left, especially not in the cities. They’re all middle class “namby-pambys” addicted to Netflix.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Europe Europa

    America is more segregated. Riots in urban ghettos generally don't matter to rural or suburban Americans, they primarily harm the decent minority shopowners and such. And rich urban Americans can count on the police to do such work for them.

    In rare cases where there are urban, prole European-Americans they have fought back. For example, the Irish working class neighborhood of Bridgeport in Chicago:

    https://twitter.com/chitrans_plant/status/1268374907508883461

    https://twitter.com/chitrans_plant/status/1268358086160453633

    https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/06/04/bridgeporters-say-bat-wielding-vigilantes-are-terrorizing-peaceful-protesters-neighbors/

    , @Hartnell
    @Europe Europa

    I think that you are painting this as an entirely black thing when it is not. On the contrary, most of the rioters and statue pullers have been indoctrinated white millennials. On most of the pictures I have seen, it is mainly white faces with a few black ones.

  117. AP says:
    @Europe Europa
    At least there's still working class white British men prepared to go into battle against blacks. I've seen no examples of white Americans doing this or trying to defend their streets, especially not unarmed.

    It seems there are no tough working class white Americans left, especially not in the cities. They're all middle class "namby-pambys" addicted to Netflix.

    Replies: @AP, @Hartnell

    America is more segregated. Riots in urban ghettos generally don’t matter to rural or suburban Americans, they primarily harm the decent minority shopowners and such. And rich urban Americans can count on the police to do such work for them.

    In rare cases where there are urban, prole European-Americans they have fought back. For example, the Irish working class neighborhood of Bridgeport in Chicago:

    https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/06/04/bridgeporters-say-bat-wielding-vigilantes-are-terrorizing-peaceful-protesters-neighbors/

  118. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack
    A Chicago black woman states that she feels safe walking through the streets of Chicago's "Ukrainian Village", while at the same time local Ukrainian residents board up their businesses and cultural centers in order to try and minimize any potential destruction from the current unrest:

    As a resident of West Humboldt Park, not far from the Ukrainian Village, she frequently visits the neighborhood. “I feel much less danger in the Ukrainian Village… the folks in this neighborhood shy away from me; they’re not friendly,” Ms. Birmingham said.

     

    Local Ukrainian civic leader, Ms. Farion compares the plight of American blacks to those of Ukrainians under Soviet control:

    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”
     
    http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/wp-content/uploads/current-pdf/The_Ukrainian_Weekly_2020-23.pdf

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”

    I’ve come across such stupidity, from a minority of diaspora Ukrainians, mostly from Canada.

    Most Ukrainians seem to be opposed to these protests. Which makes sense, given that 10,000s of Ukrainian kulaks and educated people were killed because they were “privileged” and millions were starved to death by a genocidal actions of the urban leftists against the rural conservative people. The killers then, like the BLM leaders and antifa now, were leftists and Marxists.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    The Kulaks, and the more successful peasants/farmers in general, were targeted for dispossession and outright population culling everywhere in former USSR territory.

    And peasants everywhere were starved during collectivization.

    On the ethnic Russian side of my family, my grandmother told me how they ate grass and bark from the trees during her childhood.

    They were peasants from the Penza region.

    A typical deep Russian (glubinka) territory with Russian, Mordvinian and Tatar villages all subjected to the same treatment during the collectivization.

    On the other hand, the part of the family that lived in the Donetsk aglomeration did not live through similar hardships.

    This part of the family, despite being of Ukrainian and Polish origin has been quite successful during the Soviet regime.

    More so than my Penza country folk relatives.

    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in the USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Like a lot of people out there, in varying degrees, opinions coalesce around a feeling of outrage against what happened to Floyd and the general feeling that police tactics used in handling black citizens during arrests need to be toned way down, however not necessarily supporting the manner or length of the current demonstrations. This is how I interpreted the message of the piece that I cited. Give it a read and see if you agree. I hope that you don't feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

  119. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    If you see melanf above is writing about how few immigrants are attaining Russian citizenship and “how low” such numbers are. But it’s directly opposite of modus operandi of foreign labour in Russia – these people avoid paperwork, residence permits, etc, as much as possible. And the authorities also generally ignore them. This is real open borders kind of situation with these immigrants.
     
    Right, but melanf's point is equally valid. Namely, that naturalisation shows intent of a regime of opening the country on a permanent basis to foreigners. Right now, what you're describing is that these people have a situation not unlike that of Gulf/GCC countries, where there are a lot of foreign workers but very few ever get citizenship. Though in Russia, it appears to be easier than in GCC countries.

    I've looked at recent statistics for Russia and there has been a sharp slowdown even in net migration flows from 2016 onwards. We're talking about hundreds of thousands fewer people coming in over the course of 2-3 years. If your theory about Putin is correct, that he's the eternal centrist looking to balance interests rather than an ideologue, then he must have picked up a rising trend of nationalism and/or immigration restrictionism.

    The newly liberalised citizenship law could impact some of this, even though it is mainly aimed at Russian-speakers. My guess is that the proportion will not change from melanf's quoted data, but the absolute numbers will.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I am not going to dramatize the situation with immigration in Russia is “so terrible and bad” – I even see the positive side, of lowering costs in e.g. construction industry. If you travel in other countries, you know how residential construction in Russia is unusually rapid and cheap (compared to other countries).

    Secondly, the point is about the direction of official policy. Most immigrants don’t apply for Russian citizenship, because they don’t want or need it for their purposes. It’s not because there is a selective immigration system for them (there is not).

    There is an almost pure “open borders” situation. This is borders which should be closed down. There might be a need for labour from those countries. But the chaotic open borders – where immigrants flood in unregulated, and then even result in a lot of additional costs of monitoring their Islamicist radicalization, drug trafficking, etc. These are not minor issues either – things like the HIV epidemic are direct result of the latter.

  120. @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    Do you think there is a chance to reverse this trend in the future? I think that could be a big challenge.
     
    Are you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is? In all his numerous posts I've read, I've seen no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia's racial makeup.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup

    Sure, I am extremely anti-racist and don’t judge people by nationality. If I wasn’t, it would be strange to be a regular writer on this multiracial website – which is owned and named after a brown American Jew whose face looks suitable for the streets of Istanbul or Cairo, or to be following a Middle Eastern looking blogger of Caucasian aristocratic roots.

    Neither I don’t remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like “I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup.” Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    On the other hand, my political views are more “right wing” than most people I talk to, across different countries, and in both personal and professional life. I say one of main mistakes by Putin – his open immigration borders policy, along with his external policy. Similarly, main thing I oppose about politics in Western Europe (open borders immigration, as opposed to selective immigration). Main mistake of Merkel – open borders immigration. Etc. Those views to oppose open borders immigration are not to say, that I support racism – I am a very anti-racist person in reality. More interesting European connection would be to a Chinese person who can play a Mozart sonata, than some Austrian who does not know their culture – i.e. the important thing is the civilization level.

    you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is?

    My racial makeup is Russian with Jewish roots. I would like to use these Yiddish brackets you gave to my name. But I sadly can’t claim to be a real Jew, as Jewish roots are that my grandfather has Jewish roots (whereas to be a Jew in the real sense, has to be matrilineal). By family record I am 87,5% Russian and 12,5% Jewish. However, when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn’t know they were descended from.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Dmitry


    when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn’t know they were descended from.
     
    I personally have taken the Y haplogroup test in 2009.

    And now I have a much better understanding of my patrilinear lineage's ethnic background and history.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    I can understand what you are saying and you have some interesting points. My own personal point of view is that a bit of immigration is ok and could be beneficial to society. However, on the other hand, I would not wish to see a mass stream of entirely legal immigration that ends up turning the host societies into modern day tower of Babels either as I quite enjoy the diversity of the planet and would hate to see all countries one day become one big homogeneous blob of sameness.

    Also regarding ethnic identity, I do feel it is something that Europeans will have to discover and embrace for themselves at some point if they wish to survive this century. It does not have to be radical or extreme but something similar to what the Jews and the East Asian countries have. If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves. Except for the Anglo countries as these lands actually have always desired foreign tastes more and that is a fact of life.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    Neither I don’t remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like “I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup.” Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.
     
    Well, as someone who spent my youth loathing and fearing nazis and being extremely sensitive about race-talk, I can understand how my language could sound unpleasant. I had simply assumed that by the time somebody finds this site, he is generally inured to "racism."

    Consider what it means to be completely unconcerned about future racial make-ups. It would mean being indifferent to, say, Moscow's population in 2120 being 70% Nigerian and 30% Indian. Racial makeup doesn't matter, right? So it's all good. On the other hand, if there are at least some future racial makeups that leave you feeling uneasy, then that suggests you are have at least some concern about...about what? About the future racial makeup of the country. It says nothing about the kinds of policies you might favor in order to influence the future makeup; it just demonstrates that the future racial makeup is a concern of yours.

    And mind you, being concerned about the future racial makeup doesn't necessarily mean you want the country to be "whiter" or "pure" or something like that. A sizable majority of Jews are concerned about the future racial makeup of Europe and America - they want it be substantially less white, even completely non-white.

    As for my assumption that you are Jewish, I thought I recalled you describing yourself that way. And I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel, which I guess reinforced my assumption. My mistake then.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  121. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”
     
    I've come across such stupidity, from a minority of diaspora Ukrainians, mostly from Canada.

    Most Ukrainians seem to be opposed to these protests. Which makes sense, given that 10,000s of Ukrainian kulaks and educated people were killed because they were "privileged" and millions were starved to death by a genocidal actions of the urban leftists against the rural conservative people. The killers then, like the BLM leaders and antifa now, were leftists and Marxists.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    The Kulaks, and the more successful peasants/farmers in general, were targeted for dispossession and outright population culling everywhere in former USSR territory.

    And peasants everywhere were starved during collectivization.

    On the ethnic Russian side of my family, my grandmother told me how they ate grass and bark from the trees during her childhood.

    They were peasants from the Penza region.

    A typical deep Russian (glubinka) territory with Russian, Mordvinian and Tatar villages all subjected to the same treatment during the collectivization.

    On the other hand, the part of the family that lived in the Donetsk aglomeration did not live through similar hardships.

    This part of the family, despite being of Ukrainian and Polish origin has been quite successful during the Soviet regime.

    More so than my Penza country folk relatives.

    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in the USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in lthe USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.
     
    For the most part, from the 1930's on, showing any real pride or adherence to a Ukrainian ethnic orientation was often a hindrance to any social climbing within the Soviet Union. Of course your ID documents might state that you were an ethnic Ukrainian, but in order to rise above the rest, one had to carefully present an image of a perfectly docile "Little Russian" who preferred conversing in Russian to Ukrainian, in order to prosper socially and economically. Even politically, showing any adherence to a Ukrainian position could spell doom - witness the career path of Mykola Skrypnyk and many other Ukrainians during the end of his leadership period.

    Replies: @Ano4

  122. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup

     

    Sure, I am extremely anti-racist and don't judge people by nationality. If I wasn't, it would be strange to be a regular writer on this multiracial website - which is owned and named after a brown American Jew whose face looks suitable for the streets of Istanbul or Cairo, or to be following a Middle Eastern looking blogger of Caucasian aristocratic roots.

    Neither I don't remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like "I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup." Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    On the other hand, my political views are more "right wing" than most people I talk to, across different countries, and in both personal and professional life. I say one of main mistakes by Putin - his open immigration borders policy, along with his external policy. Similarly, main thing I oppose about politics in Western Europe (open borders immigration, as opposed to selective immigration). Main mistake of Merkel - open borders immigration. Etc. Those views to oppose open borders immigration are not to say, that I support racism - I am a very anti-racist person in reality. More interesting European connection would be to a Chinese person who can play a Mozart sonata, than some Austrian who does not know their culture - i.e. the important thing is the civilization level.


    you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is?

     

    My racial makeup is Russian with Jewish roots. I would like to use these Yiddish brackets you gave to my name. But I sadly can't claim to be a real Jew, as Jewish roots are that my grandfather has Jewish roots (whereas to be a Jew in the real sense, has to be matrilineal). By family record I am 87,5% Russian and 12,5% Jewish. However, when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn't know they were descended from.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hartnell, @silviosilver

    when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn’t know they were descended from.

    I personally have taken the Y haplogroup test in 2009.

    And now I have a much better understanding of my patrilinear lineage’s ethnic background and history.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    What did you find?

    I didn't submit DNA test personally - and would be paranoid against it -, but a close relative had one of the tests for curiosity. They said Jewish DNA percentage was higher than they expect from what we know of family history, and also there were unexpected nationalities like Balkan DNA and Baltic DNA. However, there is no evidence to this in family records, nmes or documents.

    Although superstitiously my parents recent favourite countries for tourism have been Bulgaria (i.e. Balkan) and Lithuania (i.e. Baltic), while my favourite country has been Israel (i.e. Jewish). Perhaps there really can be such a genetic preference for countries. On the other hand, I could never make myself excited about living in Republic of Ireland, even though I was working there almost a year - perhaps I can blame it on the blood, or lack of it.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Ano4

  123. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...what word – if not “immigration” – do you use to describe the million of Poles in the UK.
     
    There is no other word. We have been manipulated to focus on terms describing irrelevant paperwork. The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

    Putin's biggest fault is his mindless pro-business mentality, in practise that means pro-oligarch (that means pro-rich, there is hardly a distinction, and Bezos is as much an oligarch as Potanin). All oligarchs throughout history have always wanted the cheapest possible labor. It is quite simple and there is a huge effort to obfuscate the basic equation: cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor. There is no mystery unless you happen to be an economist.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Dmitry

    The migrants are smarter: Africans climbing out of boats know that their physical presence is all that matters.

    Yes there is an Israeli term for this (although it is really “facts in the field”). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facts_on_the_ground

    cheaper labor means more wealth for people who use labor.

    Although it is not all benefits from the cheap labour, are to the business owner – in the context of a competitive market where such an owner doesn’t have a monopoly.

    Consumers in Russia, benefit for low costs here, to the extent you can buy a shiny small new apartment, in not such a terrible location, for the price of the Tesla Model 3 – while in North-Western Europe, you might be able to buy the small barn for this price.

    It is objectively, one of the successes in Russia, that people can afford currently to upgrade their housing. Although people complain that they will be indebted to the bank for years, there is nothing like a “housing crisis” in Russia, that there is in North-West Europe. And we can say this, despite the new housing itself is often far from an ideal, may have terrible architecture, too much density, and lacking infrastructure.

  124. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    considering our own history of discrimination and being treated as second-class citizens by Russia and then the Soviet Union, we should be sensitive to bigotry and discrimination.”She said the Ukrainian community should “push for equal rights and equal treatment of all citizens.”
     
    I've come across such stupidity, from a minority of diaspora Ukrainians, mostly from Canada.

    Most Ukrainians seem to be opposed to these protests. Which makes sense, given that 10,000s of Ukrainian kulaks and educated people were killed because they were "privileged" and millions were starved to death by a genocidal actions of the urban leftists against the rural conservative people. The killers then, like the BLM leaders and antifa now, were leftists and Marxists.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    Like a lot of people out there, in varying degrees, opinions coalesce around a feeling of outrage against what happened to Floyd and the general feeling that police tactics used in handling black citizens during arrests need to be toned way down, however not necessarily supporting the manner or length of the current demonstrations. This is how I interpreted the message of the piece that I cited. Give it a read and see if you agree. I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?
     
    I don't know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    At least Ukrainians were not treated any worse than ethnic Russians.

    Probably Ukrainians were even treated better.

    Ukraine benefited greatly under Soviet regime, increasing its territory and benefiting from the overall policy against "Greater Russian Chauvinism ".

    We should remember that USSR was the first country in the world to promote its ethnic minority populations at the expense of its majority population.

    It was the first to apply "affirmative action" on a wide scale.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR.

    That Ukraine would do even better if independent from its Soviet neighbors.

    And indeed, Ukraine exited its Soviet period with one of the most educated populations in the whole world and one of the most highly performing and diversified economies in Europe.

    In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.

    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it
     
    Ukrainian nationalism was certainly suppressed, but Ukrainian people, who did not engage in nationalism, were not. That is, if you were a non-political person just working and living you faced no problems because of your Ukrainian ethnicity. One of my grandparents came from a village a couple of hours from Kiev. Under the Tsars, interactions with the government were limited to a tax collector coming twice a year. Taxes were reasonable. Everyone spoke Ukrainian and everyone was left alone to raise their families, grow their food, raise their animals, attend church, go to market, etc. I suppose if someone decided to go around calling to overthrow the Tsar or for independence they might get arrested but average people weren't interested in doing that. It was similar during NEP. Only under Stalin did things get deadly - land was forcibly taken (it was a return to serfdom), millions starved, many shot, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  125. @Ano4
    @AP

    The Kulaks, and the more successful peasants/farmers in general, were targeted for dispossession and outright population culling everywhere in former USSR territory.

    And peasants everywhere were starved during collectivization.

    On the ethnic Russian side of my family, my grandmother told me how they ate grass and bark from the trees during her childhood.

    They were peasants from the Penza region.

    A typical deep Russian (glubinka) territory with Russian, Mordvinian and Tatar villages all subjected to the same treatment during the collectivization.

    On the other hand, the part of the family that lived in the Donetsk aglomeration did not live through similar hardships.

    This part of the family, despite being of Ukrainian and Polish origin has been quite successful during the Soviet regime.

    More so than my Penza country folk relatives.

    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in the USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in lthe USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.

    For the most part, from the 1930’s on, showing any real pride or adherence to a Ukrainian ethnic orientation was often a hindrance to any social climbing within the Soviet Union. Of course your ID documents might state that you were an ethnic Ukrainian, but in order to rise above the rest, one had to carefully present an image of a perfectly docile “Little Russian” who preferred conversing in Russian to Ukrainian, in order to prosper socially and economically. Even politically, showing any adherence to a Ukrainian position could spell doom – witness the career path of Mykola Skrypnyk and many other Ukrainians during the end of his leadership period.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    This is absolutely false.

    My own grandfather was quite proud of his Ukrainian and Polish roots, spoke Ukrainian with his family, read Shevchenko for pleasure, sang Ukrainian songs during family gatherings and even spoke Russian with a southern Russian/Ukrainian accent all his life.

    Despite all that he made an exceptional career in his professional field.

    Of course he was a very hard working and overachieving man.

    Ukrainians in general did well under Soviet regime.

    In general, they did better than ethnic Russians.

    BTW, did you live in USSR?

  126. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Like a lot of people out there, in varying degrees, opinions coalesce around a feeling of outrage against what happened to Floyd and the general feeling that police tactics used in handling black citizens during arrests need to be toned way down, however not necessarily supporting the manner or length of the current demonstrations. This is how I interpreted the message of the piece that I cited. Give it a read and see if you agree. I hope that you don't feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?

    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    At least Ukrainians were not treated any worse than ethnic Russians.

    Probably Ukrainians were even treated better.

    Ukraine benefited greatly under Soviet regime, increasing its territory and benefiting from the overall policy against “Greater Russian Chauvinism “.

    We should remember that USSR was the first country in the world to promote its ethnic minority populations at the expense of its majority population.

    It was the first to apply “affirmative action” on a wide scale.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR.

    That Ukraine would do even better if independent from its Soviet neighbors.

    And indeed, Ukraine exited its Soviet period with one of the most educated populations in the whole world and one of the most highly performing and diversified economies in Europe.

    In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.

    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.
     
    I will make this reply in response to both of your last two comments, that are very much a continuation of one another. It's good to start forming opinions about the world we live in based on our own or family's experiences, but it's not a substitute for looking a bit further beyond, further broadening ones perspectives. You seem fixated on the experiences of your grandfather. You don't seem very conversant about the times surrounding Mykola Skrypnyk? It's a much wider story than the one that you present, and much more indicative of what was happening in the country a a whole.

    I'm sure that many a prospeprous soviet citizen of Ukrainain background would present one picture to the outside world and quite another within the shelter of his own home, with family and close friends. I've read accounts depicting how somebody of a thoroughly soviet milieu would upon having a few good shots of horilka and a bowl of borschch would suddenly show a Ukrainian side that others never even suspected existed. All of a sudden, the Russian language requirements would be tossed out the window, and a new singing Ukrainian cossack would reappear. I'm not suggesting that your grandfather was such an individual, but I'd bet you a dozen pirogis that he didn't wear a vishivanka to work and didn't speak in Ukrainian there. If he did, and he prospered, he was certainly in a minority (and God bless him too!).

    , @AP
    @Ano4


    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.
     
    My wife's Polish ancestors registered as "Ukrainians" because Ukrainians were equal to Russians and both were favored over Poles in the USSR.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR...In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.
     
    This part is mistaken. Ukraine was the poorest of the three Slavic Republics. There was a feeling in Ukraine that Soviets were holding Ukraine back and making it poorer, that free of Moscow Ukraine would eventually become like France or something.

    In current US dollars, in 1988 Russia had more than double Ukraine's nominal GDP per capita, $3777 to $1450, and Belarus was a little bit ahead of Ukraine also:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    In terms of GDP PPP, Ukraine was ahead of Belarus but still only at about 80% that of Russia; $8,000 Russia, $6800 Ukraine, $5200 Belarus:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    So the thinking was - how come with our land and people, the Moskali are so much wealthier than us? Let us leave them. Unfortunately there was no real clean break from the Soviet Union- it was just the same local Sovoks in charge, robbing the place blind with no interference from Moscow. They bough the nationalists' silence with schools and the flag. This worked for about 15 years, by which time the country fell far behind economically.


    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.
     
    Ukraine after independence was ruled by its Soviet-era comprador elite; mostly opportunistic Russian-speaking former Communists, mostly from the South and East. Including Crimea and Donbas with their voters to Ukraine, was not good for Ukraine.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  127. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    In general, being Ukrainian was nothing to be ashamed about in lthe USSR.

    Many Ukrainians were very successful in climbing up the Soviet hierarchy ladder.
     
    For the most part, from the 1930's on, showing any real pride or adherence to a Ukrainian ethnic orientation was often a hindrance to any social climbing within the Soviet Union. Of course your ID documents might state that you were an ethnic Ukrainian, but in order to rise above the rest, one had to carefully present an image of a perfectly docile "Little Russian" who preferred conversing in Russian to Ukrainian, in order to prosper socially and economically. Even politically, showing any adherence to a Ukrainian position could spell doom - witness the career path of Mykola Skrypnyk and many other Ukrainians during the end of his leadership period.

    Replies: @Ano4

    This is absolutely false.

    My own grandfather was quite proud of his Ukrainian and Polish roots, spoke Ukrainian with his family, read Shevchenko for pleasure, sang Ukrainian songs during family gatherings and even spoke Russian with a southern Russian/Ukrainian accent all his life.

    Despite all that he made an exceptional career in his professional field.

    Of course he was a very hard working and overachieving man.

    Ukrainians in general did well under Soviet regime.

    In general, they did better than ethnic Russians.

    BTW, did you live in USSR?

  128. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Like a lot of people out there, in varying degrees, opinions coalesce around a feeling of outrage against what happened to Floyd and the general feeling that police tactics used in handling black citizens during arrests need to be toned way down, however not necessarily supporting the manner or length of the current demonstrations. This is how I interpreted the message of the piece that I cited. Give it a read and see if you agree. I hope that you don't feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it

    Ukrainian nationalism was certainly suppressed, but Ukrainian people, who did not engage in nationalism, were not. That is, if you were a non-political person just working and living you faced no problems because of your Ukrainian ethnicity. One of my grandparents came from a village a couple of hours from Kiev. Under the Tsars, interactions with the government were limited to a tax collector coming twice a year. Taxes were reasonable. Everyone spoke Ukrainian and everyone was left alone to raise their families, grow their food, raise their animals, attend church, go to market, etc. I suppose if someone decided to go around calling to overthrow the Tsar or for independence they might get arrested but average people weren’t interested in doing that. It was similar during NEP. Only under Stalin did things get deadly – land was forcibly taken (it was a return to serfdom), millions starved, many shot, etc.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact. At least you admit (?) that when one started to move up the food chain, pursuing political and I would add higher cultural aspirations, things began to change in favor of the Russian language (After NEP, of course). :-(

    Replies: @AP

  129. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?
     
    I don't know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    At least Ukrainians were not treated any worse than ethnic Russians.

    Probably Ukrainians were even treated better.

    Ukraine benefited greatly under Soviet regime, increasing its territory and benefiting from the overall policy against "Greater Russian Chauvinism ".

    We should remember that USSR was the first country in the world to promote its ethnic minority populations at the expense of its majority population.

    It was the first to apply "affirmative action" on a wide scale.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR.

    That Ukraine would do even better if independent from its Soviet neighbors.

    And indeed, Ukraine exited its Soviet period with one of the most educated populations in the whole world and one of the most highly performing and diversified economies in Europe.

    In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.

    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    I will make this reply in response to both of your last two comments, that are very much a continuation of one another. It’s good to start forming opinions about the world we live in based on our own or family’s experiences, but it’s not a substitute for looking a bit further beyond, further broadening ones perspectives. You seem fixated on the experiences of your grandfather. You don’t seem very conversant about the times surrounding Mykola Skrypnyk? It’s a much wider story than the one that you present, and much more indicative of what was happening in the country a a whole.

    I’m sure that many a prospeprous soviet citizen of Ukrainain background would present one picture to the outside world and quite another within the shelter of his own home, with family and close friends. I’ve read accounts depicting how somebody of a thoroughly soviet milieu would upon having a few good shots of horilka and a bowl of borschch would suddenly show a Ukrainian side that others never even suspected existed. All of a sudden, the Russian language requirements would be tossed out the window, and a new singing Ukrainian cossack would reappear. I’m not suggesting that your grandfather was such an individual, but I’d bet you a dozen pirogis that he didn’t wear a vishivanka to work and didn’t speak in Ukrainian there. If he did, and he prospered, he was certainly in a minority (and God bless him too!).

  130. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it
     
    Ukrainian nationalism was certainly suppressed, but Ukrainian people, who did not engage in nationalism, were not. That is, if you were a non-political person just working and living you faced no problems because of your Ukrainian ethnicity. One of my grandparents came from a village a couple of hours from Kiev. Under the Tsars, interactions with the government were limited to a tax collector coming twice a year. Taxes were reasonable. Everyone spoke Ukrainian and everyone was left alone to raise their families, grow their food, raise their animals, attend church, go to market, etc. I suppose if someone decided to go around calling to overthrow the Tsar or for independence they might get arrested but average people weren't interested in doing that. It was similar during NEP. Only under Stalin did things get deadly - land was forcibly taken (it was a return to serfdom), millions starved, many shot, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact. At least you admit (?) that when one started to move up the food chain, pursuing political and I would add higher cultural aspirations, things began to change in favor of the Russian language (After NEP, of course). 🙁

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact
     
    Frederick the Great said something similar about the German language.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  131. AP says:
    @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    I hope that you don’t feel that bigotry and discrimination against Ukrainians were elements that were not present within the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire before it?
     
    I don't know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    At least Ukrainians were not treated any worse than ethnic Russians.

    Probably Ukrainians were even treated better.

    Ukraine benefited greatly under Soviet regime, increasing its territory and benefiting from the overall policy against "Greater Russian Chauvinism ".

    We should remember that USSR was the first country in the world to promote its ethnic minority populations at the expense of its majority population.

    It was the first to apply "affirmative action" on a wide scale.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR.

    That Ukraine would do even better if independent from its Soviet neighbors.

    And indeed, Ukraine exited its Soviet period with one of the most educated populations in the whole world and one of the most highly performing and diversified economies in Europe.

    In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.

    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.

    My wife’s Polish ancestors registered as “Ukrainians” because Ukrainians were equal to Russians and both were favored over Poles in the USSR.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR…In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.

    This part is mistaken. Ukraine was the poorest of the three Slavic Republics. There was a feeling in Ukraine that Soviets were holding Ukraine back and making it poorer, that free of Moscow Ukraine would eventually become like France or something.

    In current US dollars, in 1988 Russia had more than double Ukraine’s nominal GDP per capita, $3777 to $1450, and Belarus was a little bit ahead of Ukraine also:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    In terms of GDP PPP, Ukraine was ahead of Belarus but still only at about 80% that of Russia; $8,000 Russia, $6800 Ukraine, $5200 Belarus:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    So the thinking was – how come with our land and people, the Moskali are so much wealthier than us? Let us leave them. Unfortunately there was no real clean break from the Soviet Union- it was just the same local Sovoks in charge, robbing the place blind with no interference from Moscow. They bough the nationalists’ silence with schools and the flag. This worked for about 15 years, by which time the country fell far behind economically.

    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.

    Ukraine after independence was ruled by its Soviet-era comprador elite; mostly opportunistic Russian-speaking former Communists, mostly from the South and East. Including Crimea and Donbas with their voters to Ukraine, was not good for Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @AP

    I have a feeling that Ukraine isn't as poor as portrayed. For instance, wages in Kiev are higher than in Istanbul, Turkey's biggest, most cosmopolitan city responsible for over 40% of tax revenue. And Turkey's GDPpc is significantly higher than Ukraine's either when measured in nominal or PPP.


    Of course, Numbeo is likely oversampling well-to-do English speakers who typically belong to the middle-class and above. But those effects wouldn't be any different in Turkey, given the similar poor English proficiency in both countries.

    The only way this can be squared/reconciled is if Ukraine's per capita GDP is quite a bit higher than it would appear on paper. That's where the population issue comes in. Inequality wouldn't affect matters here because the top share would just push the average level up.

  132. Putin with a sympathy to a struggle of the African-Americans for political rights, combined with really his 19th century Metternich style of political conservatism that hates any riots, extremism and unrest.

  133. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact. At least you admit (?) that when one started to move up the food chain, pursuing political and I would add higher cultural aspirations, things began to change in favor of the Russian language (After NEP, of course). :-(

    Replies: @AP

    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact

    Frederick the Great said something similar about the German language.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Okay - that makes it acceptable. Oh, I thought that you wrote several times that you speak in Ukrainian to your own children?

    Replies: @AP

  134. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Well, from your reply I can see that the old Russian axiom that the Ukrainian language was only fit to be used when working with hogs and other domesticated animals was still left intact
     
    Frederick the Great said something similar about the German language.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Okay – that makes it acceptable. Oh, I thought that you wrote several times that you speak in Ukrainian to your own children?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Of course. Why wouldn't I?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  135. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup

     

    Sure, I am extremely anti-racist and don't judge people by nationality. If I wasn't, it would be strange to be a regular writer on this multiracial website - which is owned and named after a brown American Jew whose face looks suitable for the streets of Istanbul or Cairo, or to be following a Middle Eastern looking blogger of Caucasian aristocratic roots.

    Neither I don't remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like "I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup." Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    On the other hand, my political views are more "right wing" than most people I talk to, across different countries, and in both personal and professional life. I say one of main mistakes by Putin - his open immigration borders policy, along with his external policy. Similarly, main thing I oppose about politics in Western Europe (open borders immigration, as opposed to selective immigration). Main mistake of Merkel - open borders immigration. Etc. Those views to oppose open borders immigration are not to say, that I support racism - I am a very anti-racist person in reality. More interesting European connection would be to a Chinese person who can play a Mozart sonata, than some Austrian who does not know their culture - i.e. the important thing is the civilization level.


    you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is?

     

    My racial makeup is Russian with Jewish roots. I would like to use these Yiddish brackets you gave to my name. But I sadly can't claim to be a real Jew, as Jewish roots are that my grandfather has Jewish roots (whereas to be a Jew in the real sense, has to be matrilineal). By family record I am 87,5% Russian and 12,5% Jewish. However, when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn't know they were descended from.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hartnell, @silviosilver

    I can understand what you are saying and you have some interesting points. My own personal point of view is that a bit of immigration is ok and could be beneficial to society. However, on the other hand, I would not wish to see a mass stream of entirely legal immigration that ends up turning the host societies into modern day tower of Babels either as I quite enjoy the diversity of the planet and would hate to see all countries one day become one big homogeneous blob of sameness.

    Also regarding ethnic identity, I do feel it is something that Europeans will have to discover and embrace for themselves at some point if they wish to survive this century. It does not have to be radical or extreme but something similar to what the Jews and the East Asian countries have. If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves. Except for the Anglo countries as these lands actually have always desired foreign tastes more and that is a fact of life.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Hartnell

    I agree with most of your statement, however, am not quite sure how moderate Israeli nationalism really is? Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you write:


    If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves.
     
    I would think that many European countries are actually espousing more of a collective spirit and not an individualistic one, and that this is a direct cause of these countries losing any sense of national pride.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  136. @Europe Europa
    At least there's still working class white British men prepared to go into battle against blacks. I've seen no examples of white Americans doing this or trying to defend their streets, especially not unarmed.

    It seems there are no tough working class white Americans left, especially not in the cities. They're all middle class "namby-pambys" addicted to Netflix.

    Replies: @AP, @Hartnell

    I think that you are painting this as an entirely black thing when it is not. On the contrary, most of the rioters and statue pullers have been indoctrinated white millennials. On most of the pictures I have seen, it is mainly white faces with a few black ones.

  137. @sudden death
    @Dmitry


    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.
     
    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for "remembering history as it was", but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.

    Probably nobody would argue that Napoleon or Hitler became a part of Russian history, but statues of them are not built because of that in RF. btw, there was some recent memorial sign made in RF for Mannerheim, which on surface just stated obvious "neutral" historical fact, but nevertheless was instantly vandalised and removed shortly from public.

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom

    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for “remembering history as it was”, but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.

    When you erect a statue to an historical figure you are in effect engaging in propaganda. If you erect a statue of Cromwell or Churchill or Bismarck or de Gaulle or George Washington or Robert E. Lee you are engaging in propaganda. It doesn’t have to be an explicitly political figure – a statue of Darwin would also be propaganda.

    We only notice these things as propaganda when they’re done by our political enemies.

    And toppling statues is a way of letting a defeated enemy know that he has been well and truly defeated. When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It’s funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn’t complain that it was vandalism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @dfordoom


    When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It’s funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn’t complain that it was vandalism.
     
    Soviets themselves were vandalism.

    Removing Lenin is like cleaning graffiti and garbage.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  138. @Europe Europa
    I fear nationalism is dead in England, the blacks basically destroyed what is left of it in one violent afternoon.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I fear nationalism is dead in England

    That’s not entirely a bad thing. British nationalism was very tied up with imperialism. It still is. There are still Britons who fantasise that Britain remains a Great Power. That’s why they get mixed up in America’s wars in the Middle East. It’s a kind of vicarious imperialism.

    It would be a good thing if the UK split up into its component parts. Maybe they would give up their pathetic fantasies and maybe a healthy English nationalism would arise.

    Large European nation states always seemed to end up with a brand of nationalism that morphed into imperialism.

    Of course American nationalism is pure imperialism.

    Nationalism is a two-edged sword.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @dfordoom

    Hopefully, they will relinquish their sovereign bases in Cyprus - the setting up of which is one of the greatest acts of bastardry in European history.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  139. @Hartnell
    @Dmitry

    I can understand what you are saying and you have some interesting points. My own personal point of view is that a bit of immigration is ok and could be beneficial to society. However, on the other hand, I would not wish to see a mass stream of entirely legal immigration that ends up turning the host societies into modern day tower of Babels either as I quite enjoy the diversity of the planet and would hate to see all countries one day become one big homogeneous blob of sameness.

    Also regarding ethnic identity, I do feel it is something that Europeans will have to discover and embrace for themselves at some point if they wish to survive this century. It does not have to be radical or extreme but something similar to what the Jews and the East Asian countries have. If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves. Except for the Anglo countries as these lands actually have always desired foreign tastes more and that is a fact of life.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I agree with most of your statement, however, am not quite sure how moderate Israeli nationalism really is? Also, I’m not sure exactly what you mean when you write:

    If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves.

    I would think that many European countries are actually espousing more of a collective spirit and not an individualistic one, and that this is a direct cause of these countries losing any sense of national pride.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Mr. Hack

    What I do like about Israeli nationalism is the concept that you are part of this tribe, this family, and you are constantly doing your best to help it and defend it no matter the cost. Perhaps this mindset would simply be too extreme for the European mind to handle but some elements of it would certainly help in reviving Europe.

    I agree though that America and Europe have adopted a collectivistic zeal these days. I see no difference between what the Red Guard of China or the Taliban were doing and what is taking place right now. It is like the West's very own cultural revolution. I think though the roots of this all boils down to how individualistic these societies were and how without meaning they had become. They needed a new religion and lo and behold, they now have one.

    It is going to take decades before the present mess is going to start to get cleaned up as even the silent majority of these countries still subscribe to some thoughts of the new faith.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  140. @AP
    @Ano4


    I don’t know about Tsarist Russia, but there was no bigotry and no discrimination against Ukrainians in the USSR.
     
    My wife's Polish ancestors registered as "Ukrainians" because Ukrainians were equal to Russians and both were favored over Poles in the USSR.

    One of the reasons for the Ukrainian independence was the feeling that Ukrainians were more successful than their Russian neighbors in the USSR...In 1990 the overall quality of life in Ukraine was significantly higher than the overall quality of life in Russian Federation.
     
    This part is mistaken. Ukraine was the poorest of the three Slavic Republics. There was a feeling in Ukraine that Soviets were holding Ukraine back and making it poorer, that free of Moscow Ukraine would eventually become like France or something.

    In current US dollars, in 1988 Russia had more than double Ukraine's nominal GDP per capita, $3777 to $1450, and Belarus was a little bit ahead of Ukraine also:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    In terms of GDP PPP, Ukraine was ahead of Belarus but still only at about 80% that of Russia; $8,000 Russia, $6800 Ukraine, $5200 Belarus:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY

    So the thinking was - how come with our land and people, the Moskali are so much wealthier than us? Let us leave them. Unfortunately there was no real clean break from the Soviet Union- it was just the same local Sovoks in charge, robbing the place blind with no interference from Moscow. They bough the nationalists' silence with schools and the flag. This worked for about 15 years, by which time the country fell far behind economically.


    What Ukrainians themselves made of their country after the independence is another story.
     
    Ukraine after independence was ruled by its Soviet-era comprador elite; mostly opportunistic Russian-speaking former Communists, mostly from the South and East. Including Crimea and Donbas with their voters to Ukraine, was not good for Ukraine.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    I have a feeling that Ukraine isn’t as poor as portrayed. For instance, wages in Kiev are higher than in Istanbul, Turkey’s biggest, most cosmopolitan city responsible for over 40% of tax revenue. And Turkey’s GDPpc is significantly higher than Ukraine’s either when measured in nominal or PPP.

    Of course, Numbeo is likely oversampling well-to-do English speakers who typically belong to the middle-class and above. But those effects wouldn’t be any different in Turkey, given the similar poor English proficiency in both countries.

    The only way this can be squared/reconciled is if Ukraine’s per capita GDP is quite a bit higher than it would appear on paper. That’s where the population issue comes in. Inequality wouldn’t affect matters here because the top share would just push the average level up.

  141. I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a ‘good guy’ narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler’s.

    The excuse that “we shouldn’t judge people for holding social views that were common at the time” doesn’t cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn’t he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn’t that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn’t happen sooner.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Thulean Friend

    What you say is ahistorical and borders on nihilism. Would you remove statues of Napoleon, Queen Victoria, the endless kings and emperors, fake saints and aristocrats of all kinds? Europe is literally covered with them, almost all on close examination had 'issues', in other words they were men of their times. Would you keep statues of murderous Aztecs or native kings who were often worse than their conquerors? How about the endless Jesuits, monks, friars of all kinds who prayed in public and killed behind the scenes? How about statues for anyone from either feudal era or Rome and Greece who were by definition slavers, that includes Plato, Augustus, etc...

    It will make our world an uglier place. Iconoclasts will not satisfy the thirst for revenge - au contraire, it will feed it. If you like nihilism, look into what it does in practise. This is madness and we are still in the early stages...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Thulean Friend

    You don't get it because you're foreign.

    , @Swedish Family
    @Thulean Friend


    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.
     
    The conservative argument against tearing down statues is akin to that against mass immigration: no generation has a right to take such drastic actions against the legacy of their forefathers. Modern Swedes might take a dim view of Charles XII, but tearing down his statue in Kungsträdgården would be a crime against our common history. The argument, then, isn't about condoning or condemning people of the past but about preserving relics for their own sake, no matter how odious we find them in the present.

    This doesn't mean that statues should never be torn down, but it does mean that the process, at a minimum, should be passionless and drawn out over generations. A rule of thumb, perhaps, is that if a statue draws non-esthetic ire, it must stay until the passion goes. This means that Tsereteli's Peter the Great statue can go (merely fugly) but Lenin statues must stay for now (still too invested with meaning).

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a ‘good guy’ narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler’s.
     

    You're just mindlessly regurgitating dumb leftie talking points, really tedious. Yes, Churchill was an imperialist, in many ways already an anachronism by the 1930s, and his indifferent reaction to the Bengal famine was rather callous (which doesn't mean that he "caused" the famine - which, it should be remembered, was due not least to wartime factors like the loss of rice imports from Southeast Asia, so very different from the Soviet famines of the early 1930s which happened in peacetime; imo it's also far from clear that the primary focus should be on Churchill, Bengal already had some self-government by 1943, its native elites didn't cover themselves with glory either). But the point is, nobody expects Indians to commemorate him with statues (they've got their own "heroes" to honour with statues after all...like Subhas Chandra Bose, who's got a huge one in Kalkutta, despite his work with Nazi Germany and imperial Japan). Churchill's statues in Britain weren't erected to celebrate his retrograde views about keeping India in the empire, but for his role in preserving Britain's independence and preventing German hegemony over Europe (it's of course telling that even the cucked "conservatives" don't defend him on such a genuinely patriotic basis anymore, and just mumble something along the lines of "He was racist, but he fought against even bigger racists...think of the Holocaust!"). The assault on commemorating him, by left-wing activists and fairly recent immigrants or their descendants (people with no personal connection to 1940s Britain), is really an assault on the native British and part of their ongoing dispossession...the message is "It doesn't matter what the man did for Britain in 1940, when there was bombing by the Luftwaffe and threat of invasion, it's all vitiated, because he wanted to keep Britain white and said mean things about blacks and Indians". It's not about justice, it's about an aggressive attempt at removing the last feeble remnants of any traditional national sentiment.

    Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.
     
    You mean terrorists like John Brown? imo that sort of people is already honoured more than enough, their strain of self-righteous fanaticism is one of the worst aspects of American culture.

    Replies: @Amerimutt Golems

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Thulean Friend

    Colston's work consisted primarily of facilitating the transportation of black slaves to the Caribbean, where the indigenous inhabitants were largely dead and the climate was inhospitable to whites. In addition to enriching himself, the work that the slaves performed enriched his country. Colston went on to use his wealth to be a great benefactor of his native city.

    He obviously could not have known that these slaves would become a vast pestilence in a new Anglo-Saxon nation on the American mainland, and no doubt he could scarcely have imagined that only a few generations after his death that demented heretics would not only demand but get the abolition of slavery.

    Colston was an admirable figure whose only major sin was a lack of foresight, in which case perhaps he would've used some of his wealth to suppress the emerging heresy of "human rights". There is nothing wrong with slavery, and there is certainly nothing wrong with enslaving negroes who generally only have value when enslaved.

    Churchill is indeed an overrated figure, but the alleged sin you focus on demonstrates that you are sadly committed to the universalist heresy that The Enemy promotes in order to destroy Europeans. Churchill was not an Indian and therefore his main obligation did not lay in alleviating Indian famine, particularly while there was a serious war on.

    Norman Borlaug was a brilliant man whose genius gave the world more negroes--barely human pestilence. Not exactly a great legacy.

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Edvard Colston's slavery businesses across the Atlantic ocean, had funded things in this city Bristol. So removing the statues, seems more it is destroying memories about a source of the city's fortunes.

    Similarly, Cecil Rhodes, has paid for construction of these buildings of Oriel College Oxford. By removing the commemoration - it is simply removing reminders of the origin of university's wealth.

    I wouldn't interpret these statues as idealizing these characters, and I would assume English people were intelligent enough to understand about the historical complexity. And I wouldn't say that a historical figure should always be a saint, to have a statue.

    For Oxford University, in particular, it is probably the healthy juxtaposition for the liberal hipster youth that are the students there - to know such a ruthless oligarch is responsible partly for their luxurious infrastructure.

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Thulean Friend

    , @EldnahYm
    @Thulean Friend


    In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.
     
    Ludicrous. Humanists have done little to build societies. Nations are forged in blood. Military leaders and generals are some of the most appropriate people to build statues to(afterwards would be various extraordinary individuals, explorers, patrons, etc.). Without them, many of us would not be here. Instead our enemies would have slain us and built monuments to their heroes.

    Humanism is an ideology for rootless and decadent moderns who have never had to struggle for anything in their life.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    How much of the Indian obsession with Churchill is a consequence of the failed experiment to use him as a unifying figure, a villain, in Indian schoolbooks, to galvanize the castes to form one nation?

    And how much of it is simply invading Indians seizing a niche in the Jewish narrative-ecology of WW2? Hitler is a big man, therefore Churchill is a big man. But he's not a hero - he's just like Hitler - take that, Englishman! Remember when there were a few of you were in our country, banning sati and building train tracks? Well, we are going to wipe you off the map, while calling you racists!

    Smart Indians like Priti Patel, take the nuanced approached of defending Churchill, while calling native Brits racists, in order to promote the anti-racist narrative of WW2 and continue the genocide of the British people. Right now, she and Sadiq Khan are slavering at the mouth at the prospect of importing millions of Hong Kongers, without asking native Brits, even though she probably otherwise hates the Chinese.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  142. @Mr. Hack
    @Hartnell

    I agree with most of your statement, however, am not quite sure how moderate Israeli nationalism really is? Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you write:


    If European societies can stop being so damn individualistic and cherish what makes them unique and special, that would be a step in the right direction for these countries to actually revive themselves.
     
    I would think that many European countries are actually espousing more of a collective spirit and not an individualistic one, and that this is a direct cause of these countries losing any sense of national pride.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    What I do like about Israeli nationalism is the concept that you are part of this tribe, this family, and you are constantly doing your best to help it and defend it no matter the cost. Perhaps this mindset would simply be too extreme for the European mind to handle but some elements of it would certainly help in reviving Europe.

    I agree though that America and Europe have adopted a collectivistic zeal these days. I see no difference between what the Red Guard of China or the Taliban were doing and what is taking place right now. It is like the West’s very own cultural revolution. I think though the roots of this all boils down to how individualistic these societies were and how without meaning they had become. They needed a new religion and lo and behold, they now have one.

    It is going to take decades before the present mess is going to start to get cleaned up as even the silent majority of these countries still subscribe to some thoughts of the new faith.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Hartnell

    A nationalism based on blood and DNA is considered quite radical today, bordering on fascism. Personally, I would opt for one a little bit less stringent and open to cultural bias, like in Russia. I think that in Ukraine today, outside of a few extremist groups, this type of nationalism is more the norm too.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  143. @silviosilver
    @Beckow


    They don’t usually work well unless in very specific historical conditions like Western Europe after WWII or US when opening up a new resource-rich continent.
     
    I doubt this statement is driven by anything but your ideological inclination, but even granting it for the sake of argument, it still allows that there are times when, even by the high standards you set for it, the market economy performed satisfactorily. In contrast, communist command economies were by my (rather low!) standards a moral and empirical turd from start to finish, including in their best years.

    Replies: @Beckow

    I agree that there are times when market capitalist economy performs well – today we are not living in one of those times. There are many other historical examples, but Western Europe after WWII and US were probably the best it can get, partially due to the fear that WWII and radical socialism instilled in the elites. I don’t dismiss it, but when something stops working rational people look for solutions and don’t just stick with slogans and ideology. For example ‘market economy‘ didn’t work well in the 30’s, and it has never worked well in places where market economy has been endemic for millennia like India or Africa (everyone agrees with that).

    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70’s and 80’s they worked quite well until they run out of steam. You can get on your high moral horse and blabber about Khmer Rouge or Stalin, it doesn’t change the way it was in those places at that time. And there are probably other examples. I could say that your ‘ideology‘ and probably a lifetime of constant brainwashing will never allow you to see that reality. Putin also for some reason doesn’t seem to get it.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70’s and 80’s they worked quite well until they run out of steam.
     
    Usual dishonesty. Although given that you have a soft spot for Communism you may be lying to yourself also.

    Maddison project has GDP per capita by year:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-project-database-2018

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1970: $12,527
    GDP per capita in Austria 1970: $13,523
    GDP per capita Spain 1970: $9,218

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1989: $17,517
    GDP per capita in Austria 1989: $23,223
    GDP per capita Spain 1989: $15,817

    In the 1970s and 1980s Czechoslovakia fell further behind its immediate capitalist neighbor Austria. Whereas in 1970 it had 92% of Austria's per capita GDP, in 1989 it was only 75%. In 1970 Spain had only 73.5% of Czechoslovakia's per capita GDP, by 1989 it was already 90%.

    In 1948, before Communism, Czechoslovakia was actually a lot richer than Austria. Austria $3,633, Czechoslovakia $5,611. Austria surpassed Czechoslovakia in 1962.

    Czechoslovakia had been richer than Austria since 1913.; before that, through the 19th century it was about the same, within 5% or so. Communism made it poorer. It still hasn't recovered.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  144. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    What you say is ahistorical and borders on nihilism. Would you remove statues of Napoleon, Queen Victoria, the endless kings and emperors, fake saints and aristocrats of all kinds? Europe is literally covered with them, almost all on close examination had ‘issues’, in other words they were men of their times. Would you keep statues of murderous Aztecs or native kings who were often worse than their conquerors? How about the endless Jesuits, monks, friars of all kinds who prayed in public and killed behind the scenes? How about statues for anyone from either feudal era or Rome and Greece who were by definition slavers, that includes Plato, Augustus, etc…

    It will make our world an uglier place. Iconoclasts will not satisfy the thirst for revenge – au contraire, it will feed it. If you like nihilism, look into what it does in practise. This is madness and we are still in the early stages…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    In the case of statues honoring Confederate figures, you need to figure into the equation that all of these louses were on the losing end of a great war, the greatest war casualties ever recorded in the US. Few, if any winners of any wars let the vanquished exhibit memorials to their heroes. There's no reason to continue this chimera any further into the 21st century.

    Replies: @Beckow, @EldnahYm

  145. @Hartnell
    @Mr. Hack

    What I do like about Israeli nationalism is the concept that you are part of this tribe, this family, and you are constantly doing your best to help it and defend it no matter the cost. Perhaps this mindset would simply be too extreme for the European mind to handle but some elements of it would certainly help in reviving Europe.

    I agree though that America and Europe have adopted a collectivistic zeal these days. I see no difference between what the Red Guard of China or the Taliban were doing and what is taking place right now. It is like the West's very own cultural revolution. I think though the roots of this all boils down to how individualistic these societies were and how without meaning they had become. They needed a new religion and lo and behold, they now have one.

    It is going to take decades before the present mess is going to start to get cleaned up as even the silent majority of these countries still subscribe to some thoughts of the new faith.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    A nationalism based on blood and DNA is considered quite radical today, bordering on fascism. Personally, I would opt for one a little bit less stringent and open to cultural bias, like in Russia. I think that in Ukraine today, outside of a few extremist groups, this type of nationalism is more the norm too.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, I too can see what your getting at and I did mention earlier some of this mindset would be considered too extreme for the European mind. However, elements of the Israeli example combined with what the Russians are doing could work out very well as a patriotic successor.

    Also regarding the Israeli method, it would actually be sort of beneficial to the Russians if they did try to establish some sort of kibbutz culture and frontier patriotism as Russia has one big huge problem. Apart from Moscow and St. Petersburg, the rest of the country is dying. Siberia is rapidly losing young people as they go into the big two looking for work. I'd say that within a generation, Siberia will die. Same with some other Russian cities in the European part as well.

    If Russia does want to remedy this, considering the landscape of the territory, it will have to adopt something of an Israeli mindset in order to help these areas grow again. Otherwise in the long term, Russia is probably going to lose more territory.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  146. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    You don’t get it because you’re foreign.

  147. @Beckow
    @Thulean Friend

    What you say is ahistorical and borders on nihilism. Would you remove statues of Napoleon, Queen Victoria, the endless kings and emperors, fake saints and aristocrats of all kinds? Europe is literally covered with them, almost all on close examination had 'issues', in other words they were men of their times. Would you keep statues of murderous Aztecs or native kings who were often worse than their conquerors? How about the endless Jesuits, monks, friars of all kinds who prayed in public and killed behind the scenes? How about statues for anyone from either feudal era or Rome and Greece who were by definition slavers, that includes Plato, Augustus, etc...

    It will make our world an uglier place. Iconoclasts will not satisfy the thirst for revenge - au contraire, it will feed it. If you like nihilism, look into what it does in practise. This is madness and we are still in the early stages...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    In the case of statues honoring Confederate figures, you need to figure into the equation that all of these louses were on the losing end of a great war, the greatest war casualties ever recorded in the US. Few, if any winners of any wars let the vanquished exhibit memorials to their heroes. There’s no reason to continue this chimera any further into the 21st century.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    I find what you say troubling because it assumes a uniform and almost compulsory view of history. People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it's is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone's else business. The 'winners' attitude is unseemly. Statues are statues, they don't fight, talk or change anything. I don't care much for Churchill and yet when I see his statue I am amused and it usually adds to the look and feel of a place.

    Agreeing with each other 100% is a mental disease. I though that a core principle of Western thought was critical thinking and a variety of views. Maybe I have been misinformed. There is no more stupid and pointless activity than iconoclasts obsessed with breaking 'wrong' images. What you are vanquishing are the last rational underpinnings of the modern Western tradition. What's next? Burning 'wrong' books?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @EldnahYm
    @Mr. Hack

    The U.S. decision to honor fighting men on both sides was an honorable and civilized form of historical remembrance. It is also not inappropriate to honor your enemies after vanquishing them. Many soldiers have come to respect those they fought on the other side.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  148. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    The conservative argument against tearing down statues is akin to that against mass immigration: no generation has a right to take such drastic actions against the legacy of their forefathers. Modern Swedes might take a dim view of Charles XII, but tearing down his statue in Kungsträdgården would be a crime against our common history. The argument, then, isn’t about condoning or condemning people of the past but about preserving relics for their own sake, no matter how odious we find them in the present.

    This doesn’t mean that statues should never be torn down, but it does mean that the process, at a minimum, should be passionless and drawn out over generations. A rule of thumb, perhaps, is that if a statue draws non-esthetic ire, it must stay until the passion goes. This means that Tsereteli’s Peter the Great statue can go (merely fugly) but Lenin statues must stay for now (still too invested with meaning).

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Swedish Family


    This doesn’t mean that statues should never be torn down, but it does mean that the process, at a minimum, should be passionless and drawn out over generations.
     
    That seems like a worthy ideal, but are there any actual examples of it ever happening this way?

    I ask because it seems to me that passions will always be aroused the minute the proposal is tabled. The ultraconservative types will always attempt to present it as a major assault on national identity, and the progressive types will feel forced to argue that it no longer represents "who we are." Thus, passions - albeit not of the mob rage variety, which is perhaps what you had in mind with your use of the term.

  149. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Okay - that makes it acceptable. Oh, I thought that you wrote several times that you speak in Ukrainian to your own children?

    Replies: @AP

    Of course. Why wouldn’t I?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    No reason at all. I spent a good deal of the morning listening to beautiful church liturgical music on Spotify, sung in the beautiful Ukrainian language. If you're interested, just search "Kiev Chamber Choir" and you'll be presented with a large selection, that shows how useful and beautiful the Ukrainian language lends itself, presented within the highest cadres of cultural achievement. I haven't run accross a poor sampling yet.

    Guys like Valuev and Frederick the Great were close minded bigots!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  150. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a ‘good guy’ narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler’s.

    You’re just mindlessly regurgitating dumb leftie talking points, really tedious. Yes, Churchill was an imperialist, in many ways already an anachronism by the 1930s, and his indifferent reaction to the Bengal famine was rather callous (which doesn’t mean that he “caused” the famine – which, it should be remembered, was due not least to wartime factors like the loss of rice imports from Southeast Asia, so very different from the Soviet famines of the early 1930s which happened in peacetime; imo it’s also far from clear that the primary focus should be on Churchill, Bengal already had some self-government by 1943, its native elites didn’t cover themselves with glory either). But the point is, nobody expects Indians to commemorate him with statues (they’ve got their own “heroes” to honour with statues after all…like Subhas Chandra Bose, who’s got a huge one in Kalkutta, despite his work with Nazi Germany and imperial Japan). Churchill’s statues in Britain weren’t erected to celebrate his retrograde views about keeping India in the empire, but for his role in preserving Britain’s independence and preventing German hegemony over Europe (it’s of course telling that even the cucked “conservatives” don’t defend him on such a genuinely patriotic basis anymore, and just mumble something along the lines of “He was racist, but he fought against even bigger racists…think of the Holocaust!”). The assault on commemorating him, by left-wing activists and fairly recent immigrants or their descendants (people with no personal connection to 1940s Britain), is really an assault on the native British and part of their ongoing dispossession…the message is “It doesn’t matter what the man did for Britain in 1940, when there was bombing by the Luftwaffe and threat of invasion, it’s all vitiated, because he wanted to keep Britain white and said mean things about blacks and Indians”. It’s not about justice, it’s about an aggressive attempt at removing the last feeble remnants of any traditional national sentiment.

    Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.

    You mean terrorists like John Brown? imo that sort of people is already honoured more than enough, their strain of self-righteous fanaticism is one of the worst aspects of American culture.

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
    @German_reader



     The assault on commemorating him, by left-wing activists and fairly recent immigrants or their descendants (people with no personal connection to 1940s Britain), is really an assault on the native British and part of their ongoing dispossession…

     

    You have to make allowances for simpletons.
  151. @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia...

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia…

    Maybe, but they obviously like it in Sweden and Minnesota, so there is no reason to think they would rule out Siberia — not least when the immigrants start trending more middle and working class.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    Sweden and Minnesota do not get as cold as Mother Russia. Black people can cope at -2c but when it gets to -10c they stay indoors. Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

  152. @dfordoom
    @sudden death


    Leaving aside this specific figure, sculptures and monuments in general dedicated to historical personalities/events are built not just for “remembering history as it was”, but inevitably have element of glorification or sympathy or at least imply some positivism related to the object and that is why it makes so much noise sooner or later.
     
    When you erect a statue to an historical figure you are in effect engaging in propaganda. If you erect a statue of Cromwell or Churchill or Bismarck or de Gaulle or George Washington or Robert E. Lee you are engaging in propaganda. It doesn't have to be an explicitly political figure - a statue of Darwin would also be propaganda.

    We only notice these things as propaganda when they're done by our political enemies.

    And toppling statues is a way of letting a defeated enemy know that he has been well and truly defeated. When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It's funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn't complain that it was vandalism.

    Replies: @AP

    When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It’s funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn’t complain that it was vandalism.

    Soviets themselves were vandalism.

    Removing Lenin is like cleaning graffiti and garbage.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn't mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.

    If the 20th century has been not lovingly with the monuments of the 19th century - well, you still at least have the 20th century. But if you destroy the 20th century monuments as "revenge" for the loss of the 19th century ones - you'll simply have a century even less.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation - in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism.

    Replies: @AP

  153. What I don’t get is why British historical figures, especially Churchill, are being targeted in particular by the international left? Britain is not the only country with a colonial legacy, France and Spain’s colonial legacies were arguably considerably more brutal yet it doesn’t seem that their historical figures are being targeted in the same way.

    Why does the left seem to have it in for Britain in particular?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Europe Europa

    1 - The British were by far the most successful colonialists

    2 - The British speak English, making their history more accessible to the international left

    Cecil Rhodes is quite well known, but who has heard of Jules Ferry?

  154. @Dmitry
    @sudden death


    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial
     
    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism's more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters' knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH91-mJ0Lmg

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaVWfAUrx4

    --

    Although England is a lot more passionate about "extinction rebellion" protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxr2wS6k1ko

    Replies: @Hartnell, @sudden death, @silviosilver, @Amerimutt Golems

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him.

    This is the kind of thing people say when they’re looking for reasons to justify keeping a statue that already exists. But if a statue of Rhodes had never been erected, it’s hard to believe anybody would try to justify erecting one today.

  155. AP says:
    @Beckow
    @silviosilver

    I agree that there are times when market capitalist economy performs well - today we are not living in one of those times. There are many other historical examples, but Western Europe after WWII and US were probably the best it can get, partially due to the fear that WWII and radical socialism instilled in the elites. I don't dismiss it, but when something stops working rational people look for solutions and don't just stick with slogans and ideology. For example 'market economy' didn't work well in the 30's, and it has never worked well in places where market economy has been endemic for millennia like India or Africa (everyone agrees with that).

    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70's and 80's they worked quite well until they run out of steam. You can get on your high moral horse and blabber about Khmer Rouge or Stalin, it doesn't change the way it was in those places at that time. And there are probably other examples. I could say that your 'ideology' and probably a lifetime of constant brainwashing will never allow you to see that reality. Putin also for some reason doesn't seem to get it.

    Replies: @AP

    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70’s and 80’s they worked quite well until they run out of steam.

    Usual dishonesty. Although given that you have a soft spot for Communism you may be lying to yourself also.

    Maddison project has GDP per capita by year:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-project-database-2018

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1970: $12,527
    GDP per capita in Austria 1970: $13,523
    GDP per capita Spain 1970: $9,218

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1989: $17,517
    GDP per capita in Austria 1989: $23,223
    GDP per capita Spain 1989: $15,817

    In the 1970s and 1980s Czechoslovakia fell further behind its immediate capitalist neighbor Austria. Whereas in 1970 it had 92% of Austria’s per capita GDP, in 1989 it was only 75%. In 1970 Spain had only 73.5% of Czechoslovakia’s per capita GDP, by 1989 it was already 90%.

    In 1948, before Communism, Czechoslovakia was actually a lot richer than Austria. Austria $3,633, Czechoslovakia $5,611. Austria surpassed Czechoslovakia in 1962.

    Czechoslovakia had been richer than Austria since 1913.; before that, through the 19th century it was about the same, within 5% or so. Communism made it poorer. It still hasn’t recovered.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @AP

    Not to speak for him, but in his defense, that qualifies as the postwar period, during which he allows that the market economy worked well. Further, just because the market/mixed economies of the countries you mentioned outperformed Czechoslovakia, that doesn't in itself imply that communism didn't "work well" during that same time. At most you can say that it simply didn't "work as well" (although even that leaves open the question of what it means to "work well" - which needn't necessarily centre on GDP).

    My problem with communism is that even in these periods in which it worked best, there is still too much I find deeply objectionable about it - about the whole economic ordering, the social organization, the values, the political system and so on. This isn't simply a result of 'brainwashing,' as Beckow would have it. In the last few years, I've spent a good deal of time reading Marxian critiques of capitalism. Much of it to me falls flat, but some of it has merit. Overall, however, I have been totally unable to convince myself that a command economy (and the political system necessary to maintain it) offers anything like an appealing alternative to the market-based model.

    Replies: @AP

  156. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Of course. Why wouldn't I?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    No reason at all. I spent a good deal of the morning listening to beautiful church liturgical music on Spotify, sung in the beautiful Ukrainian language. If you’re interested, just search “Kiev Chamber Choir” and you’ll be presented with a large selection, that shows how useful and beautiful the Ukrainian language lends itself, presented within the highest cadres of cultural achievement. I haven’t run accross a poor sampling yet.

    Guys like Valuev and Frederick the Great were close minded bigots!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    BTW, my hats off to you for keeping the Ukrainian culture and language alive in your home. If I understand your background, you were actually born in the states (or somewhere in the West) and it was your parents who actually emigrated here first, making you a second generation American. I know of several first generation Ukrainian families that are already assimilating and speaking in English to their children. Your third generation children will have much to be grateful for to you for having them learn Ukrainian (and Russian too!). English, as you undoubtedly know, will need little encouragement from you in order to prosper among your children.

  157. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    Colston’s work consisted primarily of facilitating the transportation of black slaves to the Caribbean, where the indigenous inhabitants were largely dead and the climate was inhospitable to whites. In addition to enriching himself, the work that the slaves performed enriched his country. Colston went on to use his wealth to be a great benefactor of his native city.

    He obviously could not have known that these slaves would become a vast pestilence in a new Anglo-Saxon nation on the American mainland, and no doubt he could scarcely have imagined that only a few generations after his death that demented heretics would not only demand but get the abolition of slavery.

    Colston was an admirable figure whose only major sin was a lack of foresight, in which case perhaps he would’ve used some of his wealth to suppress the emerging heresy of “human rights”. There is nothing wrong with slavery, and there is certainly nothing wrong with enslaving negroes who generally only have value when enslaved.

    Churchill is indeed an overrated figure, but the alleged sin you focus on demonstrates that you are sadly committed to the universalist heresy that The Enemy promotes in order to destroy Europeans. Churchill was not an Indian and therefore his main obligation did not lay in alleviating Indian famine, particularly while there was a serious war on.

    Norman Borlaug was a brilliant man whose genius gave the world more negroes–barely human pestilence. Not exactly a great legacy.

  158. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    No reason at all. I spent a good deal of the morning listening to beautiful church liturgical music on Spotify, sung in the beautiful Ukrainian language. If you're interested, just search "Kiev Chamber Choir" and you'll be presented with a large selection, that shows how useful and beautiful the Ukrainian language lends itself, presented within the highest cadres of cultural achievement. I haven't run accross a poor sampling yet.

    Guys like Valuev and Frederick the Great were close minded bigots!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    BTW, my hats off to you for keeping the Ukrainian culture and language alive in your home. If I understand your background, you were actually born in the states (or somewhere in the West) and it was your parents who actually emigrated here first, making you a second generation American. I know of several first generation Ukrainian families that are already assimilating and speaking in English to their children. Your third generation children will have much to be grateful for to you for having them learn Ukrainian (and Russian too!). English, as you undoubtedly know, will need little encouragement from you in order to prosper among your children.

  159. @AP
    @Beckow


    I am not familiar with all socialist economies all the time. All I know is that e.g. in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the 70’s and 80’s they worked quite well until they run out of steam.
     
    Usual dishonesty. Although given that you have a soft spot for Communism you may be lying to yourself also.

    Maddison project has GDP per capita by year:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-project-database-2018

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1970: $12,527
    GDP per capita in Austria 1970: $13,523
    GDP per capita Spain 1970: $9,218

    GDP per capita Czechoslovakia 1989: $17,517
    GDP per capita in Austria 1989: $23,223
    GDP per capita Spain 1989: $15,817

    In the 1970s and 1980s Czechoslovakia fell further behind its immediate capitalist neighbor Austria. Whereas in 1970 it had 92% of Austria's per capita GDP, in 1989 it was only 75%. In 1970 Spain had only 73.5% of Czechoslovakia's per capita GDP, by 1989 it was already 90%.

    In 1948, before Communism, Czechoslovakia was actually a lot richer than Austria. Austria $3,633, Czechoslovakia $5,611. Austria surpassed Czechoslovakia in 1962.

    Czechoslovakia had been richer than Austria since 1913.; before that, through the 19th century it was about the same, within 5% or so. Communism made it poorer. It still hasn't recovered.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Not to speak for him, but in his defense, that qualifies as the postwar period, during which he allows that the market economy worked well. Further, just because the market/mixed economies of the countries you mentioned outperformed Czechoslovakia, that doesn’t in itself imply that communism didn’t “work well” during that same time. At most you can say that it simply didn’t “work as well” (although even that leaves open the question of what it means to “work well” – which needn’t necessarily centre on GDP).

    My problem with communism is that even in these periods in which it worked best, there is still too much I find deeply objectionable about it – about the whole economic ordering, the social organization, the values, the political system and so on. This isn’t simply a result of ‘brainwashing,’ as Beckow would have it. In the last few years, I’ve spent a good deal of time reading Marxian critiques of capitalism. Much of it to me falls flat, but some of it has merit. Overall, however, I have been totally unable to convince myself that a command economy (and the political system necessary to maintain it) offers anything like an appealing alternative to the market-based model.

    • Replies: @AP
    @silviosilver


    Not to speak for him, but in his defense, that qualifies as the postwar period, during which he allows that the market economy worked well.
     
    It was economically outperformed by both market capitalism (Austria) and quasi-fascism (Spain, until 1975). It was the least successful system, economically. It destroyed tradition, religion, for the sake of materialism, all in vain. Unbridled market capitalism in its current form also destroyed tradition and religion. In this both systems are evil, but Communism was a total failure while market capitalism at least held up its end of the bargain by providing the greatest overall prosperity in history.
  160. @Europe Europa
    What I don't get is why British historical figures, especially Churchill, are being targeted in particular by the international left? Britain is not the only country with a colonial legacy, France and Spain's colonial legacies were arguably considerably more brutal yet it doesn't seem that their historical figures are being targeted in the same way.

    Why does the left seem to have it in for Britain in particular?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    1 – The British were by far the most successful colonialists

    2 – The British speak English, making their history more accessible to the international left

    Cecil Rhodes is quite well known, but who has heard of Jules Ferry?

  161. @Swedish Family
    @Thulean Friend


    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.
     
    The conservative argument against tearing down statues is akin to that against mass immigration: no generation has a right to take such drastic actions against the legacy of their forefathers. Modern Swedes might take a dim view of Charles XII, but tearing down his statue in Kungsträdgården would be a crime against our common history. The argument, then, isn't about condoning or condemning people of the past but about preserving relics for their own sake, no matter how odious we find them in the present.

    This doesn't mean that statues should never be torn down, but it does mean that the process, at a minimum, should be passionless and drawn out over generations. A rule of thumb, perhaps, is that if a statue draws non-esthetic ire, it must stay until the passion goes. This means that Tsereteli's Peter the Great statue can go (merely fugly) but Lenin statues must stay for now (still too invested with meaning).

    Replies: @silviosilver

    This doesn’t mean that statues should never be torn down, but it does mean that the process, at a minimum, should be passionless and drawn out over generations.

    That seems like a worthy ideal, but are there any actual examples of it ever happening this way?

    I ask because it seems to me that passions will always be aroused the minute the proposal is tabled. The ultraconservative types will always attempt to present it as a major assault on national identity, and the progressive types will feel forced to argue that it no longer represents “who we are.” Thus, passions – albeit not of the mob rage variety, which is perhaps what you had in mind with your use of the term.

  162. 1 – The British were by far the most successful colonialists

    Depends what you define as “successful”, in terms of sheer land mass it’s probably true that the British Empire was by far the most successful in the modern era.

    However, in terms of imperial powers molding colonised lands and peoples in their own image and literally obliterating indigenous cultures and languages, I would argue that the Spanish and Portuguese achieved that by far the most effectively in Latin America.

  163. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    In the case of statues honoring Confederate figures, you need to figure into the equation that all of these louses were on the losing end of a great war, the greatest war casualties ever recorded in the US. Few, if any winners of any wars let the vanquished exhibit memorials to their heroes. There's no reason to continue this chimera any further into the 21st century.

    Replies: @Beckow, @EldnahYm

    I find what you say troubling because it assumes a uniform and almost compulsory view of history. People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it’s is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone’s else business. The ‘winners‘ attitude is unseemly. Statues are statues, they don’t fight, talk or change anything. I don’t care much for Churchill and yet when I see his statue I am amused and it usually adds to the look and feel of a place.

    Agreeing with each other 100% is a mental disease. I though that a core principle of Western thought was critical thinking and a variety of views. Maybe I have been misinformed. There is no more stupid and pointless activity than iconoclasts obsessed with breaking ‘wrong‘ images. What you are vanquishing are the last rational underpinnings of the modern Western tradition. What’s next? Burning ‘wrong‘ books?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it’s is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone’s else business.
     
    So you feel that there should be no laws in Germany promulgated to hinder the display of any statues dedicated to Hitler, Goering and other nasty Nazi ideologues and practitioners? How about statues dedicated to Bandera, put up in Ukraine today?

    Replies: @Beckow

  164. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    Edvard Colston’s slavery businesses across the Atlantic ocean, had funded things in this city Bristol. So removing the statues, seems more it is destroying memories about a source of the city’s fortunes.

    Similarly, Cecil Rhodes, has paid for construction of these buildings of Oriel College Oxford. By removing the commemoration – it is simply removing reminders of the origin of university’s wealth.

    I wouldn’t interpret these statues as idealizing these characters, and I would assume English people were intelligent enough to understand about the historical complexity. And I wouldn’t say that a historical figure should always be a saint, to have a statue.

    For Oxford University, in particular, it is probably the healthy juxtaposition for the liberal hipster youth that are the students there – to know such a ruthless oligarch is responsible partly for their luxurious infrastructure.

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history.
     
    What? Do you really imagine the west today (or for the past, say, thirty years) romanticizes and idealizes its past? What planet are you on? More like demonizes and disfigures its past.

    (Unless you're referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks - even in Europe - to positions of historical significance, which I guess counts as a kind of "idealization.")

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.
     
    It's perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don't speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.

    It can be no coincidence that so many of a nation's prominent statues are wealthy oligarchs or various murderous rulers. This is at the core of my argument, morality should matter more than money or power at the time of their life, and especially after it. A statue is more than just a reflection of a nation's past: it is also a statement of its current ideals. Those you choose to glorify is indicative of your values.

    Rip them down.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  165. @Ano4
    @Dmitry


    when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn’t know they were descended from.
     
    I personally have taken the Y haplogroup test in 2009.

    And now I have a much better understanding of my patrilinear lineage's ethnic background and history.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    What did you find?

    I didn’t submit DNA test personally – and would be paranoid against it -, but a close relative had one of the tests for curiosity. They said Jewish DNA percentage was higher than they expect from what we know of family history, and also there were unexpected nationalities like Balkan DNA and Baltic DNA. However, there is no evidence to this in family records, nmes or documents.

    Although superstitiously my parents recent favourite countries for tourism have been Bulgaria (i.e. Balkan) and Lithuania (i.e. Baltic), while my favourite country has been Israel (i.e. Jewish). Perhaps there really can be such a genetic preference for countries. On the other hand, I could never make myself excited about living in Republic of Ireland, even though I was working there almost a year – perhaps I can blame it on the blood, or lack of it.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry


    However, there is no evidence to this in family records, names or documents.
     
    Why do you think Orthodox Jews count Jewishness through female line? It is easy to establish who gave birth to a child, but without paternity tests, which were not available until recently, it was impossible to establish who the father was.
    , @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    When you make a commercial DNA test what they offer is the following:

    1) Y haplogroup (male lineage)

    2) Mitochondrial haplogroup (mtDNA female lineage).

    3) A variable amount of Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNPs) analysis, more or less extensive depending on the price you can afford paying.

    Y haplogroup has a strong correlation with ethnic groups, the majority of ethnic groups have a dominant Y haplogroup and some less prevalent ones.

    mtDNA has a weak geographical correlation.

    Some SNPs are more correlated with some ethnic groups than others.

    SNPs are what these DNA testing companies sell as "Jewish, Balkanic, Baltic..." DNA.

    From genetics point of view assuming an ethnic origin for SNPs is wrong.

    An SNP is a mutation and mutations are random.

    SNPs might arise any time.

    Even though many SNPs are found more in some ethnic group, that doesn't mean it will never be found in an individual that has no relationship whatsoever with that particular group.

    Hence all this "Jewish, Baltic..." DNA business is more or less bogus.

    It is just an indication of probability: you have probably ancestors associated with this or that population.

    Correlation is not causation.

    Mitochondrial DNA is also not that interesting, women slept with anyone who conquered them.

    Y haplogroups OTOH are highly correlated with genetic history of different populations because the males who lost a battle were killed or enslaved and this reduced their ability to produce offspring.

    Consequently, male populations have gone through bottleneck effects when they got massacred and genetic expansions when their tribe conquered new female populations.

    Y haplogroups can also be derived from ancestoral populations so you can follow the migrations of your ancestors through new paleogenetic discoveries.

    In the Jewish population there are roughly 3 major Y haplogroups:

    1) J1 shared with Arabs (the so called Y haplotype Aaron of the Cohanim belongs to that haplogroup).

    2) J2 shared with the other Levantine populations.

    3) E shared with other Mediterranean people and going way back to the first original sedentary populations of the modern day Israel/Palestine/Jordan.

    Of course there are also many other minor Y haplogroups shared by Jews and all the other populations they lived among in the diaspora.

    I took only an Y haplogroup test.

    My Y haplogroup testing results confirmed the oral tradition on my father's side of the family and allowed me to have a good grasp of what our lineage has been through in the last 1200 years.

    In fact, I could even say that I can make sense of our male lineage history of the last 1500 years, but historical record is becoming increasingly uncertain on such a timescale.

    Moreover, because of paleogenetics I have now a good understanding of our genetic history up to the neolithic times.

    Obviously, it is an absolutely useless knowledge nowadays, but I still find it fascinating.

    Replies: @utu, @Mr. Hack

  166. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Edvard Colston's slavery businesses across the Atlantic ocean, had funded things in this city Bristol. So removing the statues, seems more it is destroying memories about a source of the city's fortunes.

    Similarly, Cecil Rhodes, has paid for construction of these buildings of Oriel College Oxford. By removing the commemoration - it is simply removing reminders of the origin of university's wealth.

    I wouldn't interpret these statues as idealizing these characters, and I would assume English people were intelligent enough to understand about the historical complexity. And I wouldn't say that a historical figure should always be a saint, to have a statue.

    For Oxford University, in particular, it is probably the healthy juxtaposition for the liberal hipster youth that are the students there - to know such a ruthless oligarch is responsible partly for their luxurious infrastructure.

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Thulean Friend

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history.

    What? Do you really imagine the west today (or for the past, say, thirty years) romanticizes and idealizes its past? What planet are you on? More like demonizes and disfigures its past.

    (Unless you’re referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks – even in Europe – to positions of historical significance, which I guess counts as a kind of “idealization.”)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Yes, I'm sure most people have a Disney, idealized view of the past - particularly the 19th century. This is at the same time they think that Europeans were exploiting the world, but lived luxuriously. Fragile citizens of today, would not enjoy very long life as normal people, in even the wealthiest cities of the 19th century.

    For example, if you read Dostoevsky's diaries of when he was a tourist in London. London streets are flooded with the starving dirty, smelly, drunk people, sleeping on the streets, and thousands of child prostitutes.

    19th century London - Dostoevsky says 12 year old girls (child prostitutes) go to him and ask him to go to bed with them. There are rich people mixed with half-naked people, covered with dirty rags - and some areas of London was like a painting of hell, with lost souls shouting all night.

    This wasn't some secret of the time. For example, even Schopenhauer's essay about women ("There are 80000 prostitutes in London"). People of the 19th century know about problems of urban life, from their own experiences, but they accepted it as obvious, and in most of the cultural products of the time, focus on the concerns of literate and wealthy people.

    -

    But for 21st century tourist like myself - and I imagine even more the non-reading kind of tourists - my mind about the history of London is more some idyllic fantasy of Queen Victoria, Harry Potter, Mary Poppins, etc. I cannot conceive the horrific life of London citizens that Dostoevsky wrote.

    Even the beautiful architecture and ornate buildings of the central city, we perceive nowadays as like something which was left by gods or giants. Only a few tourists would think about how such impressive buildings were made (often elaborately decorated) by hand, and what this must imply about how cheaply English labour could be bought in those days.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @AnonFromTN
    @silviosilver


    Unless you’re referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks
     
    Soviet Union did this with a vengeance. In ever republic and autonomous republic they found some third-rate poet/writer/painter/composer and elevated him to the status of great. Of course, these midgets could not compare to the really first-rate artists in truly developed cultures, but that did not stop commies: very few people can independently evaluate artistic creations, most go by received wisdom. Libtards count on the same thing: mass ignorance.
  167. @AP
    @dfordoom


    When statues of Lenin started to come down the communists in Russia knew that they had lost. It’s funny how right-wingers cheered when that happened. They didn’t complain that it was vandalism.
     
    Soviets themselves were vandalism.

    Removing Lenin is like cleaning graffiti and garbage.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn’t mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.

    If the 20th century has been not lovingly with the monuments of the 19th century – well, you still at least have the 20th century. But if you destroy the 20th century monuments as “revenge” for the loss of the 19th century ones – you’ll simply have a century even less.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation – in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn’t mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.
     
    In the case of Lenin statues it is removing a layer of dried vomit from a place. Doing so will not bring back what was destroyed, but it will make the place cleaner and more pleasant.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation – in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism
     
    Sure, it was too incompetent and poor to achieve all of its ambitions.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  168. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history.
     
    What? Do you really imagine the west today (or for the past, say, thirty years) romanticizes and idealizes its past? What planet are you on? More like demonizes and disfigures its past.

    (Unless you're referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks - even in Europe - to positions of historical significance, which I guess counts as a kind of "idealization.")

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

    Yes, I’m sure most people have a Disney, idealized view of the past – particularly the 19th century. This is at the same time they think that Europeans were exploiting the world, but lived luxuriously. Fragile citizens of today, would not enjoy very long life as normal people, in even the wealthiest cities of the 19th century.

    For example, if you read Dostoevsky’s diaries of when he was a tourist in London. London streets are flooded with the starving dirty, smelly, drunk people, sleeping on the streets, and thousands of child prostitutes.

    19th century London – Dostoevsky says 12 year old girls (child prostitutes) go to him and ask him to go to bed with them. There are rich people mixed with half-naked people, covered with dirty rags – and some areas of London was like a painting of hell, with lost souls shouting all night.

    This wasn’t some secret of the time. For example, even Schopenhauer’s essay about women (“There are 80000 prostitutes in London”). People of the 19th century know about problems of urban life, from their own experiences, but they accepted it as obvious, and in most of the cultural products of the time, focus on the concerns of literate and wealthy people.

    But for 21st century tourist like myself – and I imagine even more the non-reading kind of tourists – my mind about the history of London is more some idyllic fantasy of Queen Victoria, Harry Potter, Mary Poppins, etc. I cannot conceive the horrific life of London citizens that Dostoevsky wrote.

    Even the beautiful architecture and ornate buildings of the central city, we perceive nowadays as like something which was left by gods or giants. Only a few tourists would think about how such impressive buildings were made (often elaborately decorated) by hand, and what this must imply about how cheaply English labour could be bought in those days.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Dmitry

    Oh okay, I see what you're referring to. And yes, I agree that people tend to view the past as being sort of like the present only with less technology; in reality, it was far more miserable.

  169. What does everyone here think of Eliezer Yudkowsky’s 23 point plan to reform the criminal justice system?

    https://medium.com/@yudkowsky/a-comprehensive-reboot-of-law-enforcement-b76bfab850a3

    1. Completely disentangle punition from revenue, including outlawing civil forfeiture as a special case. Police must be funded purely out of the general budget paid for by taxation. All fines, forfeitures, penalties, or prison revenues, exacted by any level of government, must go into a separate state or federal fund; ideally, a fund that is annually refunded to all tax-filing residents. No level of government should have a predatory financial incentive to exact more fines from its people and create more ‘criminals’. Dear small town, it’s adorable that you want to be really proactive about enforcing traffic laws on passing truckers, but don’t expect to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars for your own budget by doing it. Disentangle predation from all elements of government, and remove the predatory incentives to make sure it doesn’t grow back.

    2. Delegalize police unions. A government may not recognize a police union nor negotiate with it as a union, and any such union cannot have the legal power to extract non-voluntary fees from officers. (This doesn’t mean police officers can’t organize and discuss among themselves, or eg present the government with a petition signed by an organized majority of current officers.) Restrictions on firing police officers are completely off the table in any form of negotiation. People authorized by a government to use deadly force must be supervised by elected authority on a continuing basis. A government may not, by any pathway, bargain away the ability of elected officials to de-authorize someone’s use of deadly force.

    3. Require body cams with teeth. High-resolution body cams must be recording at all times a police officer is on duty. In addition to offline storage, cams must upload low-res data continually when in range of a cellphone network; where it is immediately stored by a federal or state-level authority; with one-way hashes of the low-res data publicly broadcast immediately. The purported malfunction of a body cam is reason to exclude the testimony of a police officer. Confessions are inadmissible unless the entire interrogation was recorded in high-res. Any person has the right to record any interaction with the police.

    4. Nationwide zero-tolerance for death of unarmed persons caused by law enforcement. Any death of an unarmed person as a result of interactions with police — even if the suspect actually did throw a punch first as shown by body cam — automatically triggers an investigation on homicide charges. Win or lose, the officer or officers are permanently barred from working in law enforcement thereafter. This will end the careers of some genuinely law-abiding officers whose suspects just happened to have a heart attack while being taken into custody. So be it. The people of the United States have had it with the current state of affairs, and something drastic must be done to restore trust. No unarmed person should ever need to fear being killed by police.
    This proposal doesn’t make it illegal for the police to use violence on an unarmed person who is violently attacking them. It doesn’t even outlaw shooting them. It just means that, if that unarmed person dies, the officer does not further work in law enforcement.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @ImmortalRationalist

    Jewish nutcase wants to destroy the host society he inhabits, what else is new. Since these "reforms" do nothing to reduce crime, but only weaken law enforcement, the likely result is more criminality(+more law suits of course). Why would any sane person support this?

    The worst item is #19. He wants to apply disparate impact to law enforcement. If blacks are more likely to be punished for certain crimes, then decriminalize.

  170. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    Yes, I'm sure most people have a Disney, idealized view of the past - particularly the 19th century. This is at the same time they think that Europeans were exploiting the world, but lived luxuriously. Fragile citizens of today, would not enjoy very long life as normal people, in even the wealthiest cities of the 19th century.

    For example, if you read Dostoevsky's diaries of when he was a tourist in London. London streets are flooded with the starving dirty, smelly, drunk people, sleeping on the streets, and thousands of child prostitutes.

    19th century London - Dostoevsky says 12 year old girls (child prostitutes) go to him and ask him to go to bed with them. There are rich people mixed with half-naked people, covered with dirty rags - and some areas of London was like a painting of hell, with lost souls shouting all night.

    This wasn't some secret of the time. For example, even Schopenhauer's essay about women ("There are 80000 prostitutes in London"). People of the 19th century know about problems of urban life, from their own experiences, but they accepted it as obvious, and in most of the cultural products of the time, focus on the concerns of literate and wealthy people.

    -

    But for 21st century tourist like myself - and I imagine even more the non-reading kind of tourists - my mind about the history of London is more some idyllic fantasy of Queen Victoria, Harry Potter, Mary Poppins, etc. I cannot conceive the horrific life of London citizens that Dostoevsky wrote.

    Even the beautiful architecture and ornate buildings of the central city, we perceive nowadays as like something which was left by gods or giants. Only a few tourists would think about how such impressive buildings were made (often elaborately decorated) by hand, and what this must imply about how cheaply English labour could be bought in those days.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Oh okay, I see what you’re referring to. And yes, I agree that people tend to view the past as being sort of like the present only with less technology; in reality, it was far more miserable.

  171. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history.
     
    What? Do you really imagine the west today (or for the past, say, thirty years) romanticizes and idealizes its past? What planet are you on? More like demonizes and disfigures its past.

    (Unless you're referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks - even in Europe - to positions of historical significance, which I guess counts as a kind of "idealization.")

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

    Unless you’re referring to the practice of elevating the most obscure blacks

    Soviet Union did this with a vengeance. In ever republic and autonomous republic they found some third-rate poet/writer/painter/composer and elevated him to the status of great. Of course, these midgets could not compare to the really first-rate artists in truly developed cultures, but that did not stop commies: very few people can independently evaluate artistic creations, most go by received wisdom. Libtards count on the same thing: mass ignorance.

  172. @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    What did you find?

    I didn't submit DNA test personally - and would be paranoid against it -, but a close relative had one of the tests for curiosity. They said Jewish DNA percentage was higher than they expect from what we know of family history, and also there were unexpected nationalities like Balkan DNA and Baltic DNA. However, there is no evidence to this in family records, nmes or documents.

    Although superstitiously my parents recent favourite countries for tourism have been Bulgaria (i.e. Balkan) and Lithuania (i.e. Baltic), while my favourite country has been Israel (i.e. Jewish). Perhaps there really can be such a genetic preference for countries. On the other hand, I could never make myself excited about living in Republic of Ireland, even though I was working there almost a year - perhaps I can blame it on the blood, or lack of it.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Ano4

    However, there is no evidence to this in family records, names or documents.

    Why do you think Orthodox Jews count Jewishness through female line? It is easy to establish who gave birth to a child, but without paternity tests, which were not available until recently, it was impossible to establish who the father was.

  173. AP says:
    @silviosilver
    @AP

    Not to speak for him, but in his defense, that qualifies as the postwar period, during which he allows that the market economy worked well. Further, just because the market/mixed economies of the countries you mentioned outperformed Czechoslovakia, that doesn't in itself imply that communism didn't "work well" during that same time. At most you can say that it simply didn't "work as well" (although even that leaves open the question of what it means to "work well" - which needn't necessarily centre on GDP).

    My problem with communism is that even in these periods in which it worked best, there is still too much I find deeply objectionable about it - about the whole economic ordering, the social organization, the values, the political system and so on. This isn't simply a result of 'brainwashing,' as Beckow would have it. In the last few years, I've spent a good deal of time reading Marxian critiques of capitalism. Much of it to me falls flat, but some of it has merit. Overall, however, I have been totally unable to convince myself that a command economy (and the political system necessary to maintain it) offers anything like an appealing alternative to the market-based model.

    Replies: @AP

    Not to speak for him, but in his defense, that qualifies as the postwar period, during which he allows that the market economy worked well.

    It was economically outperformed by both market capitalism (Austria) and quasi-fascism (Spain, until 1975). It was the least successful system, economically. It destroyed tradition, religion, for the sake of materialism, all in vain. Unbridled market capitalism in its current form also destroyed tradition and religion. In this both systems are evil, but Communism was a total failure while market capitalism at least held up its end of the bargain by providing the greatest overall prosperity in history.

  174. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP

    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn't mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.

    If the 20th century has been not lovingly with the monuments of the 19th century - well, you still at least have the 20th century. But if you destroy the 20th century monuments as "revenge" for the loss of the 19th century ones - you'll simply have a century even less.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation - in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism.

    Replies: @AP

    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn’t mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.

    In the case of Lenin statues it is removing a layer of dried vomit from a place. Doing so will not bring back what was destroyed, but it will make the place cleaner and more pleasant.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation – in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism

    Sure, it was too incompetent and poor to achieve all of its ambitions.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    ? It might vary by city, but in Soviet times they build around rather than on top of interesting historical buildings. I can see clearly where they try to build around, rather than on top of the historical building.

    On the hand, with the unregulated capitalism of the last three decades, developers have lost the reticience to demolish anything they want, and there is no longer a taboo against building directly on top of historical buildings.

    If you next time you are in Russia, you will see an interesting wooden building. Make sure to photo it now. Because the next time you return, it might be likely demolished without any care at all, especially if it it was in the centre of the city or occupying potentially profitable land.

  175. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    I find what you say troubling because it assumes a uniform and almost compulsory view of history. People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it's is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone's else business. The 'winners' attitude is unseemly. Statues are statues, they don't fight, talk or change anything. I don't care much for Churchill and yet when I see his statue I am amused and it usually adds to the look and feel of a place.

    Agreeing with each other 100% is a mental disease. I though that a core principle of Western thought was critical thinking and a variety of views. Maybe I have been misinformed. There is no more stupid and pointless activity than iconoclasts obsessed with breaking 'wrong' images. What you are vanquishing are the last rational underpinnings of the modern Western tradition. What's next? Burning 'wrong' books?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it’s is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone’s else business.

    So you feel that there should be no laws in Germany promulgated to hinder the display of any statues dedicated to Hitler, Goering and other nasty Nazi ideologues and practitioners? How about statues dedicated to Bandera, put up in Ukraine today?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    Comparing Confederate generals to Nazis is way over the top, are you serious? Robert E Lee is a 'Hitler' now? Let's keep some perspective.

    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities. I have never been bothered by the modern-day Bandera cult in Ukraine, he was a complex person, not my kind, but I find Russian belly-aching about him overdone. If you look too closely at most statued heroes we will have no statues, even Gandhi was an admitted pervert. It is just a formed piece of stone, why should it bother anyone?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  176. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    People have a right to celebrate what they wish and it’s is frankly none of mine, yours, or anyone’s else business.
     
    So you feel that there should be no laws in Germany promulgated to hinder the display of any statues dedicated to Hitler, Goering and other nasty Nazi ideologues and practitioners? How about statues dedicated to Bandera, put up in Ukraine today?

    Replies: @Beckow

    Comparing Confederate generals to Nazis is way over the top, are you serious? Robert E Lee is a ‘Hitler‘ now? Let’s keep some perspective.

    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities. I have never been bothered by the modern-day Bandera cult in Ukraine, he was a complex person, not my kind, but I find Russian belly-aching about him overdone. If you look too closely at most statued heroes we will have no statues, even Gandhi was an admitted pervert. It is just a formed piece of stone, why should it bother anyone?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities.
     
    So why not leave it up to Americans to decide what heroes and statues they want to commemorate? Why should your opinion on this issue even matter?

    Replies: @Beckow

  177. @ImmortalRationalist
    What does everyone here think of Eliezer Yudkowsky's 23 point plan to reform the criminal justice system?

    https://medium.com/@yudkowsky/a-comprehensive-reboot-of-law-enforcement-b76bfab850a3


    1. Completely disentangle punition from revenue, including outlawing civil forfeiture as a special case. Police must be funded purely out of the general budget paid for by taxation. All fines, forfeitures, penalties, or prison revenues, exacted by any level of government, must go into a separate state or federal fund; ideally, a fund that is annually refunded to all tax-filing residents. No level of government should have a predatory financial incentive to exact more fines from its people and create more ‘criminals’. Dear small town, it’s adorable that you want to be really proactive about enforcing traffic laws on passing truckers, but don’t expect to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars for your own budget by doing it. Disentangle predation from all elements of government, and remove the predatory incentives to make sure it doesn’t grow back.

    2. Delegalize police unions. A government may not recognize a police union nor negotiate with it as a union, and any such union cannot have the legal power to extract non-voluntary fees from officers. (This doesn’t mean police officers can’t organize and discuss among themselves, or eg present the government with a petition signed by an organized majority of current officers.) Restrictions on firing police officers are completely off the table in any form of negotiation. People authorized by a government to use deadly force must be supervised by elected authority on a continuing basis. A government may not, by any pathway, bargain away the ability of elected officials to de-authorize someone’s use of deadly force.

    3. Require body cams with teeth. High-resolution body cams must be recording at all times a police officer is on duty. In addition to offline storage, cams must upload low-res data continually when in range of a cellphone network; where it is immediately stored by a federal or state-level authority; with one-way hashes of the low-res data publicly broadcast immediately. The purported malfunction of a body cam is reason to exclude the testimony of a police officer. Confessions are inadmissible unless the entire interrogation was recorded in high-res. Any person has the right to record any interaction with the police.

    4. Nationwide zero-tolerance for death of unarmed persons caused by law enforcement. Any death of an unarmed person as a result of interactions with police — even if the suspect actually did throw a punch first as shown by body cam — automatically triggers an investigation on homicide charges. Win or lose, the officer or officers are permanently barred from working in law enforcement thereafter. This will end the careers of some genuinely law-abiding officers whose suspects just happened to have a heart attack while being taken into custody. So be it. The people of the United States have had it with the current state of affairs, and something drastic must be done to restore trust. No unarmed person should ever need to fear being killed by police.
    This proposal doesn’t make it illegal for the police to use violence on an unarmed person who is violently attacking them. It doesn’t even outlaw shooting them. It just means that, if that unarmed person dies, the officer does not further work in law enforcement.
     

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Jewish nutcase wants to destroy the host society he inhabits, what else is new. Since these “reforms” do nothing to reduce crime, but only weaken law enforcement, the likely result is more criminality(+more law suits of course). Why would any sane person support this?

    The worst item is #19. He wants to apply disparate impact to law enforcement. If blacks are more likely to be punished for certain crimes, then decriminalize.

  178. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    Comparing Confederate generals to Nazis is way over the top, are you serious? Robert E Lee is a 'Hitler' now? Let's keep some perspective.

    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities. I have never been bothered by the modern-day Bandera cult in Ukraine, he was a complex person, not my kind, but I find Russian belly-aching about him overdone. If you look too closely at most statued heroes we will have no statues, even Gandhi was an admitted pervert. It is just a formed piece of stone, why should it bother anyone?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities.

    So why not leave it up to Americans to decide what heroes and statues they want to commemorate? Why should your opinion on this issue even matter?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    It is not about my opinion. Are you sure that removing the statues is the opinion of people in the American South? I have been there and that's not how they think. Although maybe 'corona' has changed everything...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  179. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Edvard Colston's slavery businesses across the Atlantic ocean, had funded things in this city Bristol. So removing the statues, seems more it is destroying memories about a source of the city's fortunes.

    Similarly, Cecil Rhodes, has paid for construction of these buildings of Oriel College Oxford. By removing the commemoration - it is simply removing reminders of the origin of university's wealth.

    I wouldn't interpret these statues as idealizing these characters, and I would assume English people were intelligent enough to understand about the historical complexity. And I wouldn't say that a historical figure should always be a saint, to have a statue.

    For Oxford University, in particular, it is probably the healthy juxtaposition for the liberal hipster youth that are the students there - to know such a ruthless oligarch is responsible partly for their luxurious infrastructure.

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Thulean Friend

    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.

    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.

    It can be no coincidence that so many of a nation’s prominent statues are wealthy oligarchs or various murderous rulers. This is at the core of my argument, morality should matter more than money or power at the time of their life, and especially after it. A statue is more than just a reflection of a nation’s past: it is also a statement of its current ideals. Those you choose to glorify is indicative of your values.

    Rip them down.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.
     
    It is possible to put up contextual plaques or move the statue to a less frequented park or similar place.

    Most nations have various and conflicting national-ideological belief-strands. It should be possible to have an ecumenical approach to statues and monuments.

    So in Paris there is the Monument to the Rights of Man:

    https://www.eutouring.com/monument_des_droits_de_l_Homme_b13_DSC04004FP_lrg.JPG

    While at the same time having the conservative Sacre Coeur standing as a national repentance for the decadence of the French people:

    https://laceandgraceblog.com/2017/06/montmartres-gorgeous-sacre-coeur/

    Then there are things like Paris' Stalingrad station which is obviously not named thus because of Stalin's terrors.

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    ---

    Antifa and the black rabble won't just tear down "murderers" or "oligarchs", they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very "progressive" for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago). Even brown or yellow historical figures who were insufficiently obedient towards blacks are liable to be purged.

    The replacements for torn-down statues of legacy Americans and Europeans won't be more "humane" Liberal counterparts, rather it will be something like this:

    https://www.caribbeannationalweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/I-Am-Queen-Mary-statue.jpg

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony, however the real ahistorical motive shines through:


    The torch and the cane bill held in the statue’s hands symbolize the resistance strategies by those who were colonized, the artists said in a statement. Her seated pose “recalls the iconic 1967 photograph of Huey P. Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party.” And the plinth on which her chair rests incorporates “coral cut from the ocean by enslaved Africans gathered from ruins of the foundations of historic buildings on St. Croix.”
     
    https://repeatingislands.com/2018/04/01/denmark-gets-first-public-statue-of-a-caribbean-black-woman-a-rebel-queen/

    http://www.huey.er1ca.com/huey_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22&g2_serialNumber=1

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    https://repeatingislands.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/master675.jpg

    TL;DR - Pulling down historical statues for the sake of black fragility will only end in the triumph of ahistorical black ultranationalism throughout the American Empire.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

  180. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    In the case of statues honoring Confederate figures, you need to figure into the equation that all of these louses were on the losing end of a great war, the greatest war casualties ever recorded in the US. Few, if any winners of any wars let the vanquished exhibit memorials to their heroes. There's no reason to continue this chimera any further into the 21st century.

    Replies: @Beckow, @EldnahYm

    The U.S. decision to honor fighting men on both sides was an honorable and civilized form of historical remembrance. It is also not inappropriate to honor your enemies after vanquishing them. Many soldiers have come to respect those they fought on the other side.

    • Agree: melanf, Ano4, Passer by
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @EldnahYm

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    As far as "honor" goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @EldnahYm

  181. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow


    What statues Germans display I leave up to them, they know better their own history and personalities.
     
    So why not leave it up to Americans to decide what heroes and statues they want to commemorate? Why should your opinion on this issue even matter?

    Replies: @Beckow

    It is not about my opinion. Are you sure that removing the statues is the opinion of people in the American South? I have been there and that’s not how they think. Although maybe ‘corona‘ has changed everything…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    It's not "corona" that's changed public opinion in the south about the removal of confederate statues, but the death of Mr. Floyd. Google in "removal of confederate statues" and you'll see scores of articles that point to the changing public opinion of Ameericans and Southerners too as to removal of these arcane relics of the past.

    Replies: @Matra, @AnonFromTN

  182. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.

    Ludicrous. Humanists have done little to build societies. Nations are forged in blood. Military leaders and generals are some of the most appropriate people to build statues to(afterwards would be various extraordinary individuals, explorers, patrons, etc.). Without them, many of us would not be here. Instead our enemies would have slain us and built monuments to their heroes.

    Humanism is an ideology for rootless and decadent moderns who have never had to struggle for anything in their life.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @EldnahYm

    It is like the Bible says. There is a time for war and a time for peace. The Humanists have made some positive contributions during peace time in the past just as much as the warriors who go out to fight. It all depends on the era. To be honest though, I do get the feeling the millennial generation is meant to fight but due to the advanced technology of today, there is actually no major war for them to fight in hence why they are tearing up cities. They have an anger and nothing to unleash it on.

  183. I find it strange how many people hate Churchill for standing up to Nazi Germany, yet many of the same people celebrate Russia for doing the same. What’s all that about?

    Honestly it stinks of anti-English racism to me, as in a belief that Russia has a right to defend itself but the English should just take it because they’re untermensch or something.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Europe Europa

    If you are talking about the brown vermin that are tearing down statues in England, they will hate Russia just as much, they hate all white people.

  184. @Mr. Hack
    @Hartnell

    A nationalism based on blood and DNA is considered quite radical today, bordering on fascism. Personally, I would opt for one a little bit less stringent and open to cultural bias, like in Russia. I think that in Ukraine today, outside of a few extremist groups, this type of nationalism is more the norm too.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Yes, I too can see what your getting at and I did mention earlier some of this mindset would be considered too extreme for the European mind. However, elements of the Israeli example combined with what the Russians are doing could work out very well as a patriotic successor.

    Also regarding the Israeli method, it would actually be sort of beneficial to the Russians if they did try to establish some sort of kibbutz culture and frontier patriotism as Russia has one big huge problem. Apart from Moscow and St. Petersburg, the rest of the country is dying. Siberia is rapidly losing young people as they go into the big two looking for work. I’d say that within a generation, Siberia will die. Same with some other Russian cities in the European part as well.

    If Russia does want to remedy this, considering the landscape of the territory, it will have to adopt something of an Israeli mindset in order to help these areas grow again. Otherwise in the long term, Russia is probably going to lose more territory.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell

    I've read claims that many fear the Chinese will move into Siberia eventually, as they have irredentist claims to much of it. Apparently there are Chinese who believe that Vladivostok is theirs, which was a surprise to me as in the West we're lead to believe that only countries like Britain have claims like this against them.

    Replies: @Hartnell

  185. @Swedish Family
    @Hartnell


    You get a few blacks who really do love Russia but I am sure that you can count them on one hand. Like Dimitry said, most of them are students who usually go back home. I doubt the refugees who flood into Europe by the boat load would be quite that happy to go and live in Siberia…
     
    Maybe, but they obviously like it in Sweden and Minnesota, so there is no reason to think they would rule out Siberia -- not least when the immigrants start trending more middle and working class.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Sweden and Minnesota do not get as cold as Mother Russia. Black people can cope at -2c but when it gets to -10c they stay indoors. Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @songbird, @silviosilver

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell


    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
     
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.
    , @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    If you have a normal city life - and do not work outside -, you will feel more cold most of the time in Ireland, than you will in Siberia. In the winter, you are mainly inside buildings, and how cold you feel is more function of the temperature inside buildings, than of temperatures outside. Siberian cities have comparatively warm inside buildings and heating.

    As for African immigrants - they will not immigrate to Siberia. They want to immigrate (like everyone) to the most wealthy liberal welfare countries, e.g.: Sweden, Germany, Norway, UK, etc.

  186. @EldnahYm
    @Thulean Friend


    In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.
     
    Ludicrous. Humanists have done little to build societies. Nations are forged in blood. Military leaders and generals are some of the most appropriate people to build statues to(afterwards would be various extraordinary individuals, explorers, patrons, etc.). Without them, many of us would not be here. Instead our enemies would have slain us and built monuments to their heroes.

    Humanism is an ideology for rootless and decadent moderns who have never had to struggle for anything in their life.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    It is like the Bible says. There is a time for war and a time for peace. The Humanists have made some positive contributions during peace time in the past just as much as the warriors who go out to fight. It all depends on the era. To be honest though, I do get the feeling the millennial generation is meant to fight but due to the advanced technology of today, there is actually no major war for them to fight in hence why they are tearing up cities. They have an anger and nothing to unleash it on.

  187. @Hartnell
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, I too can see what your getting at and I did mention earlier some of this mindset would be considered too extreme for the European mind. However, elements of the Israeli example combined with what the Russians are doing could work out very well as a patriotic successor.

    Also regarding the Israeli method, it would actually be sort of beneficial to the Russians if they did try to establish some sort of kibbutz culture and frontier patriotism as Russia has one big huge problem. Apart from Moscow and St. Petersburg, the rest of the country is dying. Siberia is rapidly losing young people as they go into the big two looking for work. I'd say that within a generation, Siberia will die. Same with some other Russian cities in the European part as well.

    If Russia does want to remedy this, considering the landscape of the territory, it will have to adopt something of an Israeli mindset in order to help these areas grow again. Otherwise in the long term, Russia is probably going to lose more territory.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    I’ve read claims that many fear the Chinese will move into Siberia eventually, as they have irredentist claims to much of it. Apparently there are Chinese who believe that Vladivostok is theirs, which was a surprise to me as in the West we’re lead to believe that only countries like Britain have claims like this against them.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @Europe Europa

    No it is true that Russians are more concerned about the Chinese potentially taking over Siberia. Russia, if I do recall, took the Vladivostok region from China in the 19th century. The big question is though would many Chinese even want to move into Siberia? It's not exactly the old feudal society that it once was with at least 500 million people becoming part of the middle class (a huge achievement I'd like to add). With low birthrates and expectations of a high quality of life, I cannot really see the Chinese scrambling en masse either to move into Siberia.

    From what I recall reading, the Russian settlers of Siberia were mainly the descendants of the Cossacks, criminals and engineers/scientists as part of the USSR. It was sort of an Australia really and no one really wanted to go settle there. So who knows what is the fate of Siberia in the long run...

    It could potentially go back to the natives but the problem is they are small in number and are very integrated into Russian society. Plus from what I've read about them, the native Siberians seem to be rather anti-immigrant just as much as the mainstream Russian population.

    The fate of Siberia is certainly one that deserves more discussion by Karlin as it is a very interesting question.

  188. @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    What did you find?

    I didn't submit DNA test personally - and would be paranoid against it -, but a close relative had one of the tests for curiosity. They said Jewish DNA percentage was higher than they expect from what we know of family history, and also there were unexpected nationalities like Balkan DNA and Baltic DNA. However, there is no evidence to this in family records, nmes or documents.

    Although superstitiously my parents recent favourite countries for tourism have been Bulgaria (i.e. Balkan) and Lithuania (i.e. Baltic), while my favourite country has been Israel (i.e. Jewish). Perhaps there really can be such a genetic preference for countries. On the other hand, I could never make myself excited about living in Republic of Ireland, even though I was working there almost a year - perhaps I can blame it on the blood, or lack of it.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Ano4

    When you make a commercial DNA test what they offer is the following:

    1) Y haplogroup (male lineage)

    2) Mitochondrial haplogroup (mtDNA female lineage).

    3) A variable amount of Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNPs) analysis, more or less extensive depending on the price you can afford paying.

    Y haplogroup has a strong correlation with ethnic groups, the majority of ethnic groups have a dominant Y haplogroup and some less prevalent ones.

    mtDNA has a weak geographical correlation.

    Some SNPs are more correlated with some ethnic groups than others.

    SNPs are what these DNA testing companies sell as “Jewish, Balkanic, Baltic…” DNA.

    From genetics point of view assuming an ethnic origin for SNPs is wrong.

    An SNP is a mutation and mutations are random.

    SNPs might arise any time.

    Even though many SNPs are found more in some ethnic group, that doesn’t mean it will never be found in an individual that has no relationship whatsoever with that particular group.

    Hence all this “Jewish, Baltic…” DNA business is more or less bogus.

    It is just an indication of probability: you have probably ancestors associated with this or that population.

    Correlation is not causation.

    Mitochondrial DNA is also not that interesting, women slept with anyone who conquered them.

    Y haplogroups OTOH are highly correlated with genetic history of different populations because the males who lost a battle were killed or enslaved and this reduced their ability to produce offspring.

    Consequently, male populations have gone through bottleneck effects when they got massacred and genetic expansions when their tribe conquered new female populations.

    Y haplogroups can also be derived from ancestoral populations so you can follow the migrations of your ancestors through new paleogenetic discoveries.

    In the Jewish population there are roughly 3 major Y haplogroups:

    1) J1 shared with Arabs (the so called Y haplotype Aaron of the Cohanim belongs to that haplogroup).

    2) J2 shared with the other Levantine populations.

    3) E shared with other Mediterranean people and going way back to the first original sedentary populations of the modern day Israel/Palestine/Jordan.

    Of course there are also many other minor Y haplogroups shared by Jews and all the other populations they lived among in the diaspora.

    I took only an Y haplogroup test.

    My Y haplogroup testing results confirmed the oral tradition on my father’s side of the family and allowed me to have a good grasp of what our lineage has been through in the last 1200 years.

    In fact, I could even say that I can make sense of our male lineage history of the last 1500 years, but historical record is becoming increasingly uncertain on such a timescale.

    Moreover, because of paleogenetics I have now a good understanding of our genetic history up to the neolithic times.

    Obviously, it is an absolutely useless knowledge nowadays, but I still find it fascinating.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Ano4

    Jewish DNA is most suspect and scientifically compromised. Ivanka's children are 100% Jewish. This is not reflected by the current DNA tests but at some point it will once the base of Jewish reference DNA's will be expanded and updated.


    https://www.unz.com/isteve/sailer-in-takis-a-tale-of-two-sisters/#comment-1991382
    In case of AJs it is difficult because there are different lineages with 35-55% European admixture (which is a misnomer as on some chromosomes it is larger than 55%). Each lineage requires different markers and different test criteria. For each lineage there is a sample that is a reference sample postulated to be ≈100% AJ. The whole problem is how to pick the reference samples to make the largest number of self identified AJs happy so they get the certificate they are maximum % AJ. Then you do not want pass too many “imposters.” Or maybe you do because it all depends on what is true objective that might be political in nature.
     
    How political is Jewish DNA? Bennett Greenspan, founder of Family Tree DNA said something very revealing about his motives and priorities:

    http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/genetic-census-of-the-jewish-people/

    The urgency of our work is magnified by the fact that the legitimacy of the Jewish people and its claim to our ancestral home is currently under constant pseudo-historical attack. The media, particularly on the web, carries regular features from enemies of Israel describing theories to the effect that Ashkenazi Jews have no connection to the land of Israel and are, in fact, European and Central Asian interlopers.

    The Y-chromosome studies demonstrably prove otherwise — a majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East. As the various publicly known DNA test providers have assembled Jewish DNA databases — not just FamilyTreeDNA but my colleagues at 23andMe and Ancestry as well — we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Alright already, you've thoroughly convinced me that you're astute enough to construct good meaningful sentences. Now, perhaps it's time to show us that you're equally competent at putting together a full and complete paragraph? :-)

    Replies: @Ano4

  189. @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell

    I've read claims that many fear the Chinese will move into Siberia eventually, as they have irredentist claims to much of it. Apparently there are Chinese who believe that Vladivostok is theirs, which was a surprise to me as in the West we're lead to believe that only countries like Britain have claims like this against them.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    No it is true that Russians are more concerned about the Chinese potentially taking over Siberia. Russia, if I do recall, took the Vladivostok region from China in the 19th century. The big question is though would many Chinese even want to move into Siberia? It’s not exactly the old feudal society that it once was with at least 500 million people becoming part of the middle class (a huge achievement I’d like to add). With low birthrates and expectations of a high quality of life, I cannot really see the Chinese scrambling en masse either to move into Siberia.

    From what I recall reading, the Russian settlers of Siberia were mainly the descendants of the Cossacks, criminals and engineers/scientists as part of the USSR. It was sort of an Australia really and no one really wanted to go settle there. So who knows what is the fate of Siberia in the long run…

    It could potentially go back to the natives but the problem is they are small in number and are very integrated into Russian society. Plus from what I’ve read about them, the native Siberians seem to be rather anti-immigrant just as much as the mainstream Russian population.

    The fate of Siberia is certainly one that deserves more discussion by Karlin as it is a very interesting question.

  190. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    When you make a commercial DNA test what they offer is the following:

    1) Y haplogroup (male lineage)

    2) Mitochondrial haplogroup (mtDNA female lineage).

    3) A variable amount of Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNPs) analysis, more or less extensive depending on the price you can afford paying.

    Y haplogroup has a strong correlation with ethnic groups, the majority of ethnic groups have a dominant Y haplogroup and some less prevalent ones.

    mtDNA has a weak geographical correlation.

    Some SNPs are more correlated with some ethnic groups than others.

    SNPs are what these DNA testing companies sell as "Jewish, Balkanic, Baltic..." DNA.

    From genetics point of view assuming an ethnic origin for SNPs is wrong.

    An SNP is a mutation and mutations are random.

    SNPs might arise any time.

    Even though many SNPs are found more in some ethnic group, that doesn't mean it will never be found in an individual that has no relationship whatsoever with that particular group.

    Hence all this "Jewish, Baltic..." DNA business is more or less bogus.

    It is just an indication of probability: you have probably ancestors associated with this or that population.

    Correlation is not causation.

    Mitochondrial DNA is also not that interesting, women slept with anyone who conquered them.

    Y haplogroups OTOH are highly correlated with genetic history of different populations because the males who lost a battle were killed or enslaved and this reduced their ability to produce offspring.

    Consequently, male populations have gone through bottleneck effects when they got massacred and genetic expansions when their tribe conquered new female populations.

    Y haplogroups can also be derived from ancestoral populations so you can follow the migrations of your ancestors through new paleogenetic discoveries.

    In the Jewish population there are roughly 3 major Y haplogroups:

    1) J1 shared with Arabs (the so called Y haplotype Aaron of the Cohanim belongs to that haplogroup).

    2) J2 shared with the other Levantine populations.

    3) E shared with other Mediterranean people and going way back to the first original sedentary populations of the modern day Israel/Palestine/Jordan.

    Of course there are also many other minor Y haplogroups shared by Jews and all the other populations they lived among in the diaspora.

    I took only an Y haplogroup test.

    My Y haplogroup testing results confirmed the oral tradition on my father's side of the family and allowed me to have a good grasp of what our lineage has been through in the last 1200 years.

    In fact, I could even say that I can make sense of our male lineage history of the last 1500 years, but historical record is becoming increasingly uncertain on such a timescale.

    Moreover, because of paleogenetics I have now a good understanding of our genetic history up to the neolithic times.

    Obviously, it is an absolutely useless knowledge nowadays, but I still find it fascinating.

    Replies: @utu, @Mr. Hack

    Jewish DNA is most suspect and scientifically compromised. Ivanka’s children are 100% Jewish. This is not reflected by the current DNA tests but at some point it will once the base of Jewish reference DNA’s will be expanded and updated.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/sailer-in-takis-a-tale-of-two-sisters/#comment-1991382
    In case of AJs it is difficult because there are different lineages with 35-55% European admixture (which is a misnomer as on some chromosomes it is larger than 55%). Each lineage requires different markers and different test criteria. For each lineage there is a sample that is a reference sample postulated to be ≈100% AJ. The whole problem is how to pick the reference samples to make the largest number of self identified AJs happy so they get the certificate they are maximum % AJ. Then you do not want pass too many “imposters.” Or maybe you do because it all depends on what is true objective that might be political in nature.

    How political is Jewish DNA? Bennett Greenspan, founder of Family Tree DNA said something very revealing about his motives and priorities:

    http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/genetic-census-of-the-jewish-people/

    The urgency of our work is magnified by the fact that the legitimacy of the Jewish people and its claim to our ancestral home is currently under constant pseudo-historical attack. The media, particularly on the web, carries regular features from enemies of Israel describing theories to the effect that Ashkenazi Jews have no connection to the land of Israel and are, in fact, European and Central Asian interlopers.

    The Y-chromosome studies demonstrably prove otherwise — a majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East. As the various publicly known DNA test providers have assembled Jewish DNA databases — not just FamilyTreeDNA but my colleagues at 23andMe and Ancestry as well — we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @utu


    majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East.
     
    True.

    we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people

     

    False.

    with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.
     
    True.

    In a study of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied, had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."[37] In relation to the region of the Fertile Crescent, the same study noted; "In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors."[14]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

    Klyosov did an excellent work on the Jewish DNA genealogy.

    I would strongly suggest to anyone fluent in Russian and interested in Jewish genetic history to read his writings or watch his videos on the subject.

    That being said, I am not of Jewish ancestry.

    As a consequence the Jewish angle is tangential at best to my own genetic genealogy interests.
  191. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a ‘good guy’ narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler’s.
     

    You're just mindlessly regurgitating dumb leftie talking points, really tedious. Yes, Churchill was an imperialist, in many ways already an anachronism by the 1930s, and his indifferent reaction to the Bengal famine was rather callous (which doesn't mean that he "caused" the famine - which, it should be remembered, was due not least to wartime factors like the loss of rice imports from Southeast Asia, so very different from the Soviet famines of the early 1930s which happened in peacetime; imo it's also far from clear that the primary focus should be on Churchill, Bengal already had some self-government by 1943, its native elites didn't cover themselves with glory either). But the point is, nobody expects Indians to commemorate him with statues (they've got their own "heroes" to honour with statues after all...like Subhas Chandra Bose, who's got a huge one in Kalkutta, despite his work with Nazi Germany and imperial Japan). Churchill's statues in Britain weren't erected to celebrate his retrograde views about keeping India in the empire, but for his role in preserving Britain's independence and preventing German hegemony over Europe (it's of course telling that even the cucked "conservatives" don't defend him on such a genuinely patriotic basis anymore, and just mumble something along the lines of "He was racist, but he fought against even bigger racists...think of the Holocaust!"). The assault on commemorating him, by left-wing activists and fairly recent immigrants or their descendants (people with no personal connection to 1940s Britain), is really an assault on the native British and part of their ongoing dispossession...the message is "It doesn't matter what the man did for Britain in 1940, when there was bombing by the Luftwaffe and threat of invasion, it's all vitiated, because he wanted to keep Britain white and said mean things about blacks and Indians". It's not about justice, it's about an aggressive attempt at removing the last feeble remnants of any traditional national sentiment.

    Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists.
     
    You mean terrorists like John Brown? imo that sort of people is already honoured more than enough, their strain of self-righteous fanaticism is one of the worst aspects of American culture.

    Replies: @Amerimutt Golems

     The assault on commemorating him, by left-wing activists and fairly recent immigrants or their descendants (people with no personal connection to 1940s Britain), is really an assault on the native British and part of their ongoing dispossession…

    You have to make allowances for simpletons.

  192. @utu
    @Ano4

    Jewish DNA is most suspect and scientifically compromised. Ivanka's children are 100% Jewish. This is not reflected by the current DNA tests but at some point it will once the base of Jewish reference DNA's will be expanded and updated.


    https://www.unz.com/isteve/sailer-in-takis-a-tale-of-two-sisters/#comment-1991382
    In case of AJs it is difficult because there are different lineages with 35-55% European admixture (which is a misnomer as on some chromosomes it is larger than 55%). Each lineage requires different markers and different test criteria. For each lineage there is a sample that is a reference sample postulated to be ≈100% AJ. The whole problem is how to pick the reference samples to make the largest number of self identified AJs happy so they get the certificate they are maximum % AJ. Then you do not want pass too many “imposters.” Or maybe you do because it all depends on what is true objective that might be political in nature.
     
    How political is Jewish DNA? Bennett Greenspan, founder of Family Tree DNA said something very revealing about his motives and priorities:

    http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/genetic-census-of-the-jewish-people/

    The urgency of our work is magnified by the fact that the legitimacy of the Jewish people and its claim to our ancestral home is currently under constant pseudo-historical attack. The media, particularly on the web, carries regular features from enemies of Israel describing theories to the effect that Ashkenazi Jews have no connection to the land of Israel and are, in fact, European and Central Asian interlopers.

    The Y-chromosome studies demonstrably prove otherwise — a majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East. As the various publicly known DNA test providers have assembled Jewish DNA databases — not just FamilyTreeDNA but my colleagues at 23andMe and Ancestry as well — we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East.

    True.

    we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people

    False.

    with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.

    True.

    In a study of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied, had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. “Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.”[37] In relation to the region of the Fertile Crescent, the same study noted; “In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.”[14]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

    Klyosov did an excellent work on the Jewish DNA genealogy.

    I would strongly suggest to anyone fluent in Russian and interested in Jewish genetic history to read his writings or watch his videos on the subject.

    That being said, I am not of Jewish ancestry.

    As a consequence the Jewish angle is tangential at best to my own genetic genealogy interests.

  193. @Dmitry
    @sudden death


    their own “native” blacks tearing down monuments of imperial colonial
     
    Black lives matter in the UK had a lot of English supporters, not just the blacks and browns. It was also a kind of anti-American protest, as they were focused against the US Embassy.

    In Oxford, people protested against Cecil Rhodes (despite that students are not even in Oxford now because of coronavirus). Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism's more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters' knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH91-mJ0Lmg

    London is where all of the Indian and Jamaican people live, but it looks like the protest was more half English people

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxaVWfAUrx4

    --

    Although England is a lot more passionate about "extinction rebellion" protests against climate change.

    Extinction rebellion is the place for tourists to visit, when they want to see an ancient and frightening anglosaxon war dances in the centre of London.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxr2wS6k1ko

    Replies: @Hartnell, @sudden death, @silviosilver, @Amerimutt Golems

    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

    Wikipedia’s English version is kosher and his article was probably written by the same journalists from the Guardian who are inciting chaos. That’s not news.

    They are upset over Brexit and the election last year.

    However, Rhodes is controversial for other reasons, namely the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Amerimutt Golems


    the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.
     
    From a purely historical perspective, that was the first time that concentration camps were used on a large scale to hold captive a non combatant population.

    Concentration camps, another amazing British invention.

    Of course it was a war crime, but who cares: these pesky Afrikaners were racist anyway...
    , @songbird
    @Amerimutt Golems

    Rhodes was gay, conspired against the Boers, and indirectly helped create the Oppenheimer fortune - by rights, they should worship him.

    The same with all the others, even though they weren't homos. Colston greatly increased the number of copies of black genes and their geographic spread. Indirectly, he helped found some of the wealthiest black countries - tourist destinations and offshore banks. He was involved in the foundation of negrolatry in the US, so it could be exported elsewhere.

    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves and that's what they have against him - giving tropical island paradises to Africans.

    It was because of Francis Drake that the Spanish crown promoted miscegenation on Hispaniola, forming the Dominican people today. There are over two million of them in the US - they formed part of the demographic tidal wave that inundated it. (And similar claims could be made about black Caribs in Britain) And I could go on and on...

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @Europe Europa
    @Amerimutt Golems

    The Afrikaners wanted a fight with the British and got it, they invaded British territory first and they whined when they received the consequences.

    "Afrikaners" seem to have this weird idea that they are somehow native to Africa, yet they were colonialists fighting over territory no different to the British. They also brutally slaughtered plenty of British people so don't give me that innocent poor Afrikaner nonsense.

    Replies: @Ano4

  194. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Dmitry



    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

     

    Wikipedia's English version is kosher and his article was probably written by the same journalists from the Guardian who are inciting chaos. That's not news.

    They are upset over Brexit and the election last year.

    However, Rhodes is controversial for other reasons, namely the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    Replies: @Ano4, @songbird, @Europe Europa

    the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    From a purely historical perspective, that was the first time that concentration camps were used on a large scale to hold captive a non combatant population.

    Concentration camps, another amazing British invention.

    Of course it was a war crime, but who cares: these pesky Afrikaners were racist anyway…

  195. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Dmitry



    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

     

    Wikipedia's English version is kosher and his article was probably written by the same journalists from the Guardian who are inciting chaos. That's not news.

    They are upset over Brexit and the election last year.

    However, Rhodes is controversial for other reasons, namely the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    Replies: @Ano4, @songbird, @Europe Europa

    Rhodes was gay, conspired against the Boers, and indirectly helped create the Oppenheimer fortune – by rights, they should worship him.

    The same with all the others, even though they weren’t homos. Colston greatly increased the number of copies of black genes and their geographic spread. Indirectly, he helped found some of the wealthiest black countries – tourist destinations and offshore banks. He was involved in the foundation of negrolatry in the US, so it could be exported elsewhere.

    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves and that’s what they have against him – giving tropical island paradises to Africans.

    It was because of Francis Drake that the Spanish crown promoted miscegenation on Hispaniola, forming the Dominican people today. There are over two million of them in the US – they formed part of the demographic tidal wave that inundated it. (And similar claims could be made about black Caribs in Britain) And I could go on and on…

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @songbird


    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves
     
    Did newly free slaves actually want to go back to the slave societies in Africa where they were enslaved and sold in the first place?

    Replies: @songbird

  196. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    A large part of our political stupidity is from romanticization and idealization of history. So to maintain lovingly to reminders of slave owners or wild oligarchs of the past, is even rather a useful way to reduce naïveté.
     
    It's perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don't speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.

    It can be no coincidence that so many of a nation's prominent statues are wealthy oligarchs or various murderous rulers. This is at the core of my argument, morality should matter more than money or power at the time of their life, and especially after it. A statue is more than just a reflection of a nation's past: it is also a statement of its current ideals. Those you choose to glorify is indicative of your values.

    Rip them down.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.

    It is possible to put up contextual plaques or move the statue to a less frequented park or similar place.

    Most nations have various and conflicting national-ideological belief-strands. It should be possible to have an ecumenical approach to statues and monuments.

    So in Paris there is the Monument to the Rights of Man:

    While at the same time having the conservative Sacre Coeur standing as a national repentance for the decadence of the French people:

    https://laceandgraceblog.com/2017/06/montmartres-gorgeous-sacre-coeur/

    Then there are things like Paris’ Stalingrad station which is obviously not named thus because of Stalin’s terrors.

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    Antifa and the black rabble won’t just tear down “murderers” or “oligarchs”, they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very “progressive” for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago). Even brown or yellow historical figures who were insufficiently obedient towards blacks are liable to be purged.

    The replacements for torn-down statues of legacy Americans and Europeans won’t be more “humane” Liberal counterparts, rather it will be something like this:

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony, however the real ahistorical motive shines through:

    The torch and the cane bill held in the statue’s hands symbolize the resistance strategies by those who were colonized, the artists said in a statement. Her seated pose “recalls the iconic 1967 photograph of Huey P. Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party.” And the plinth on which her chair rests incorporates “coral cut from the ocean by enslaved Africans gathered from ruins of the foundations of historic buildings on St. Croix.”

    https://repeatingislands.com/2018/04/01/denmark-gets-first-public-statue-of-a-caribbean-black-woman-a-rebel-queen/

    http://www.huey.er1ca.com/huey_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22&g2_serialNumber=1

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    TL;DR – Pulling down historical statues for the sake of black fragility will only end in the triumph of ahistorical black ultranationalism throughout the American Empire.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Hyperborean


    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.
     
    From a PC perspective, you are making a cardinal mistake: letting the reality get in the way of narrative.
    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Sacré-Coeur is bit of an gypsy oligarch kitsch though - and had undermined some claims of Paris at the time, to be the standard of classical taste.

    On the other hand, it is madly popular with Chinese and American tourists. And Paris is now more a tourist city, than any cultural exporting one.

    It also looks a bit like an imitation of the Hindu temples - so it will probably be futureproofed in terms of tourism value, if India ever becomes rich.

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Hyperborean


    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.
     
    Most of the people pulling down Colston the slaver's statue in Bristol were white. So your characterisation/smear that these are some uppity minorities who hate white people is factually incorrect.

    Antifa and the black rabble won’t just tear down “murderers” or “oligarchs”, they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very “progressive” for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago)
     
    Most people who were "progressive" in centuries past wouldn't be so today, which is why everyone would need a re-evaluation. As I've repeatedly made clear, those you choose to venerate in the public square isn't just a sterile statement of the past; it's an affirmation of your values in the present.

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony
     
    I didn't know about this statue but I'm impressed with the Danes. I find no fault in praising a woman who fought against serfdom. As for Huey P. Newton, his legacy is complex. The party he founded was created in a social environment where Jim Crow laws were still on the books, but I don't think anyone can deny that the party degenerated into a cult of violent and embezzlement after some years. On this instance, I'd agree with you that the forced attempt to meme him into her statue was misguided and wrong. The woman should have been allowed to be representating only herself without any additional baggage.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  197. @Thulean Friend
    I find it hard to be outraged over toppling statues like that of Colson, a slaver. People really want to attach their identy to filth like that? Good riddance. Churchill was responsible for not lifting a finger in alleviating a massive famine in India. He was also in favour of gassing various groups.

    There has been a huge retconning of his legacy because the West desperately needs a 'good guy' narrative for WWII. In reality, his world view was very similar to Hitler's.

    The excuse that "we shouldn't judge people for holding social views that were common at the time" doesn't cut it. The statues displayed in public is a positive affirmation of the kind of ideals we uphold as a society today. In every epoch there are people to find that have humanist values. Instead of confederate generals, elevate abolitionists. Furthermore, the obsession with wealthy capitalists and various rulers is harmful. An eminent scientist like Norman Borlaug was far more consequential for improving the world than some corrupt politician. Why shouldn't he be more of a household name than an old president or a general? Such people deserve to have statues in the public square.

    The scandal isn't that slavers are being pulled down and destroyed, but why it didn't happen sooner.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Kent Nationalist, @Swedish Family, @German_reader, @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm, @songbird

    How much of the Indian obsession with Churchill is a consequence of the failed experiment to use him as a unifying figure, a villain, in Indian schoolbooks, to galvanize the castes to form one nation?

    And how much of it is simply invading Indians seizing a niche in the Jewish narrative-ecology of WW2? Hitler is a big man, therefore Churchill is a big man. But he’s not a hero – he’s just like Hitler – take that, Englishman! Remember when there were a few of you were in our country, banning sati and building train tracks? Well, we are going to wipe you off the map, while calling you racists!

    Smart Indians like Priti Patel, take the nuanced approached of defending Churchill, while calling native Brits racists, in order to promote the anti-racist narrative of WW2 and continue the genocide of the British people. Right now, she and Sadiq Khan are slavering at the mouth at the prospect of importing millions of Hong Kongers, without asking native Brits, even though she probably otherwise hates the Chinese.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    continue the genocide of the British people
     
    What a bizarre viewpoint. Ask how many native brits feel 'genocided', I doubt you'd come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    In reality, immigrants to the UK learn the language and are attracted by the culture. Just ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he'd stay as long as he has. And the UK's attraction has meant he has had to adapt far more to them than vice versa. That sounds like cultural victory, rather than being him contributing to the 'genocide' of the UK

    A big issue for many right-wingers is that they think they speak for all whites. Many whites, in fact the vast majority, have liberal and left-wing views on identity in the West. And many immigrants can and do indeed contribute to the cultural fabric.

    At any rate, contructing an immigration system based on nationality is deeply flawed and should be discarded, but that's another discussion.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Dmitry, @songbird

  198. @dfordoom
    @Europe Europa


    I fear nationalism is dead in England
     
    That's not entirely a bad thing. British nationalism was very tied up with imperialism. It still is. There are still Britons who fantasise that Britain remains a Great Power. That's why they get mixed up in America's wars in the Middle East. It's a kind of vicarious imperialism.

    It would be a good thing if the UK split up into its component parts. Maybe they would give up their pathetic fantasies and maybe a healthy English nationalism would arise.

    Large European nation states always seemed to end up with a brand of nationalism that morphed into imperialism.

    Of course American nationalism is pure imperialism.

    Nationalism is a two-edged sword.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Hopefully, they will relinquish their sovereign bases in Cyprus – the setting up of which is one of the greatest acts of bastardry in European history.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Agathoklis

    Typical Greek coward, attack the British but say nothing about the Turks because you know they've got the gumption and inclination to destroy you if you pushed it with them.

  199. @Europe Europa
    I find it strange how many people hate Churchill for standing up to Nazi Germany, yet many of the same people celebrate Russia for doing the same. What's all that about?

    Honestly it stinks of anti-English racism to me, as in a belief that Russia has a right to defend itself but the English should just take it because they're untermensch or something.

    Replies: @neutral

    If you are talking about the brown vermin that are tearing down statues in England, they will hate Russia just as much, they hate all white people.

  200. Thomas Jefferson Statue bites the dust in Portland

  201. Why do pro-Nazi types always blame Churchill/the English for destroying Germany?

    I mean it was Russia who really destroyed Germany, yet they seem to avoid all criticism for it from these people?

    • Replies: @Matra
    @Europe Europa

    Why do pro-Nazi types always blame Churchill/the English for destroying Germany?

    Because they are mostly German and Irish Americans - or at least they identify as such - who hate Anglo-Saxons in general and the English in particular. (They also don't see Poles or Czechs as actual nations but that's a side issue here).

    Prior to the events of recent weeks several jurisdictions in Canada took down statues of the country's first prime minister, Sir John A Macdonald, despite his only 'crime' being that he began the residential schools system for Indians/Natives/Aboriginals or whatever they are called this week. This was largely innocuous and well-intentioned but, like all school systems over a period of a century, had the occasional case of 'abuse' - loosely defined. Canadian academia & media make it clear that you must consider residential schools abuse the Canadian equivalent of slavery, Jim Crow and the Holocaust or you will be considered an untouchable racist. Canadian leftists have always been deeply jealous of the race grievances that have been available for exploitation to their American counterparts so they've had to settle on this after previous attempts to exploit an 1885 head tax on Chinese and a 'racist' refusal in 1914 to allow in illegal aliens from the Punjab largely fell flat with the public.

    Anyway, as Canada is tearing down its European heritage about two years ago Winnipeg got its very own Muhammad Ali Jinnah Park. Jinnah was the founder of Pakistan, a country many of today's immigrants to Canada originated in.

    , @sudden death
    @Europe Europa

    cause these days significant share of them are getting the funding from RF and you are not allowed to criticize the ones who pay you ;) ofc, also simply beaten puppy Stockholm syndrome may also play a role without any conspiracies or financial incentives too.

  202. US Embassy South Korea revolts against Trump

  203. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Dmitry



    Rhodes was one of 19th century capitalism’s more interesting and infamous mix of hero and villain, and definitely should have a sculpture for people to remember him. I wonder if protesters’ knowledge of him will be more than the biased Wikipedia article.

     

    Wikipedia's English version is kosher and his article was probably written by the same journalists from the Guardian who are inciting chaos. That's not news.

    They are upset over Brexit and the election last year.

    However, Rhodes is controversial for other reasons, namely the second Anglo-Boer War which led to the deaths of thousands of Afrikaner women and children in unsanitary camps.

    Replies: @Ano4, @songbird, @Europe Europa

    The Afrikaners wanted a fight with the British and got it, they invaded British territory first and they whined when they received the consequences.

    “Afrikaners” seem to have this weird idea that they are somehow native to Africa, yet they were colonialists fighting over territory no different to the British. They also brutally slaughtered plenty of British people so don’t give me that innocent poor Afrikaner nonsense.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Europe Europa


    they invaded British territory first
     
    Afrikaners were there well before the Brits, so how could they invade a British territory?

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  204. @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    Sweden and Minnesota do not get as cold as Mother Russia. Black people can cope at -2c but when it gets to -10c they stay indoors. Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @AnonFromTN

    To be honest, I don't think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part. It's quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @silviosilver

    , @songbird
    @AnonFromTN


    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
     
    That is why I think it should become a holding camp for illegal immigrants to Europe. I don't know how possible it would be to pull off, but I like the idea of telling them that it is someplace warmer, like France, so that when they are sent back, they spread the idea that Europe is brutally cold in wintertime.

    It would also be nice if there were clouds of mosquitos in summertime.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN


    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.
     
    You don't sound like you're going to much miss it.

    There is an unseemly glee in your tone whenever you discuss the west's demographic problems.

    I will not return the favor because "negrify thy neighbor" policies only ensure we'll all lose.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

  205. @EldnahYm
    @Mr. Hack

    The U.S. decision to honor fighting men on both sides was an honorable and civilized form of historical remembrance. It is also not inappropriate to honor your enemies after vanquishing them. Many soldiers have come to respect those they fought on the other side.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?
     
    If you condemn Dixie treason, how can you defend the original American treason against the British Crown and Parliament?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @songbird
    @Mr. Hack


    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume.
     
    Lee was a good sport and surrendered, saving many lives. He could have easily called for an insurgency.

    The death toll really had more to do with Lincoln and the abolitionists. The South did not draft an army to invade the North. They should have put Lincoln, Julia Ward Howe, and her husband on the frontline. But they did not - instead they doomed America. And perhaps, Europe as well.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @EldnahYm
    @Mr. Hack


    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?
     
    If people didn't care about who won or lost a sports competition, there would be no incentive for the sports to go on. Furthermore, sports competition are repeated annually, so all the incentives are for repeating the conflicts. War is not the same dynamic. People care about who wins or loses because it has real world consequences that impact them. It also makes little sense to wish to stir up further hatred, because people generally do not want another war. That was the whole point of re-integrating the south after the failure of Reconstruction.

    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?
     
    Well, the current popular narrative is that the Civil War was necessary to end slavery. I'm not sure that's entirely true, on the other hand, it is clear that earlier compromises were a political failure. One thing the American Civil War did do was end the disagreements about slavery once and for all.
  206. @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @songbird, @silviosilver

    To be honest, I don’t think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part. It’s quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell


    It’s quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.
     
    That’s a pretty common misconception, promoted by globohomo. In fact, if General Winter served in the Red Army, he would have been shot for aiding the enemy. When the Germans advanced on Moscow, it was sufficiently cold to freeze the soil and allow their tanks to move everywhere. When Russian counter-offensive started, it got warmer, so that Soviet tanks could only move on those few roads that existed, as the mud elsewhere obstructed their movement.
    , @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    I don’t think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part.
     
    Cope, cope, cope.

    Canada's hardly any warmer but there's no shortage of blacks who want to live there.

    "Beggars can't be choosers" - that is African emigration in a nutshell. They just want out of the dark continent. They may have their preferences, but they'll take anything they can get.
  207. @Agathoklis
    @dfordoom

    Hopefully, they will relinquish their sovereign bases in Cyprus - the setting up of which is one of the greatest acts of bastardry in European history.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Typical Greek coward, attack the British but say nothing about the Turks because you know they’ve got the gumption and inclination to destroy you if you pushed it with them.

  208. @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    Sweden and Minnesota do not get as cold as Mother Russia. Black people can cope at -2c but when it gets to -10c they stay indoors. Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

  209. @Hyperborean
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.
     
    It is possible to put up contextual plaques or move the statue to a less frequented park or similar place.

    Most nations have various and conflicting national-ideological belief-strands. It should be possible to have an ecumenical approach to statues and monuments.

    So in Paris there is the Monument to the Rights of Man:

    https://www.eutouring.com/monument_des_droits_de_l_Homme_b13_DSC04004FP_lrg.JPG

    While at the same time having the conservative Sacre Coeur standing as a national repentance for the decadence of the French people:

    https://laceandgraceblog.com/2017/06/montmartres-gorgeous-sacre-coeur/

    Then there are things like Paris' Stalingrad station which is obviously not named thus because of Stalin's terrors.

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    ---

    Antifa and the black rabble won't just tear down "murderers" or "oligarchs", they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very "progressive" for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago). Even brown or yellow historical figures who were insufficiently obedient towards blacks are liable to be purged.

    The replacements for torn-down statues of legacy Americans and Europeans won't be more "humane" Liberal counterparts, rather it will be something like this:

    https://www.caribbeannationalweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/I-Am-Queen-Mary-statue.jpg

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony, however the real ahistorical motive shines through:


    The torch and the cane bill held in the statue’s hands symbolize the resistance strategies by those who were colonized, the artists said in a statement. Her seated pose “recalls the iconic 1967 photograph of Huey P. Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party.” And the plinth on which her chair rests incorporates “coral cut from the ocean by enslaved Africans gathered from ruins of the foundations of historic buildings on St. Croix.”
     
    https://repeatingislands.com/2018/04/01/denmark-gets-first-public-statue-of-a-caribbean-black-woman-a-rebel-queen/

    http://www.huey.er1ca.com/huey_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22&g2_serialNumber=1

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    https://repeatingislands.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/master675.jpg

    TL;DR - Pulling down historical statues for the sake of black fragility will only end in the triumph of ahistorical black ultranationalism throughout the American Empire.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    From a PC perspective, you are making a cardinal mistake: letting the reality get in the way of narrative.

  210. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    When you make a commercial DNA test what they offer is the following:

    1) Y haplogroup (male lineage)

    2) Mitochondrial haplogroup (mtDNA female lineage).

    3) A variable amount of Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNPs) analysis, more or less extensive depending on the price you can afford paying.

    Y haplogroup has a strong correlation with ethnic groups, the majority of ethnic groups have a dominant Y haplogroup and some less prevalent ones.

    mtDNA has a weak geographical correlation.

    Some SNPs are more correlated with some ethnic groups than others.

    SNPs are what these DNA testing companies sell as "Jewish, Balkanic, Baltic..." DNA.

    From genetics point of view assuming an ethnic origin for SNPs is wrong.

    An SNP is a mutation and mutations are random.

    SNPs might arise any time.

    Even though many SNPs are found more in some ethnic group, that doesn't mean it will never be found in an individual that has no relationship whatsoever with that particular group.

    Hence all this "Jewish, Baltic..." DNA business is more or less bogus.

    It is just an indication of probability: you have probably ancestors associated with this or that population.

    Correlation is not causation.

    Mitochondrial DNA is also not that interesting, women slept with anyone who conquered them.

    Y haplogroups OTOH are highly correlated with genetic history of different populations because the males who lost a battle were killed or enslaved and this reduced their ability to produce offspring.

    Consequently, male populations have gone through bottleneck effects when they got massacred and genetic expansions when their tribe conquered new female populations.

    Y haplogroups can also be derived from ancestoral populations so you can follow the migrations of your ancestors through new paleogenetic discoveries.

    In the Jewish population there are roughly 3 major Y haplogroups:

    1) J1 shared with Arabs (the so called Y haplotype Aaron of the Cohanim belongs to that haplogroup).

    2) J2 shared with the other Levantine populations.

    3) E shared with other Mediterranean people and going way back to the first original sedentary populations of the modern day Israel/Palestine/Jordan.

    Of course there are also many other minor Y haplogroups shared by Jews and all the other populations they lived among in the diaspora.

    I took only an Y haplogroup test.

    My Y haplogroup testing results confirmed the oral tradition on my father's side of the family and allowed me to have a good grasp of what our lineage has been through in the last 1200 years.

    In fact, I could even say that I can make sense of our male lineage history of the last 1500 years, but historical record is becoming increasingly uncertain on such a timescale.

    Moreover, because of paleogenetics I have now a good understanding of our genetic history up to the neolithic times.

    Obviously, it is an absolutely useless knowledge nowadays, but I still find it fascinating.

    Replies: @utu, @Mr. Hack

    Alright already, you’ve thoroughly convinced me that you’re astute enough to construct good meaningful sentences. Now, perhaps it’s time to show us that you’re equally competent at putting together a full and complete paragraph? 🙂

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, I'm sadly have to admit that English is not my native language.

    I speak four different languages, but English is the one I've learned last and on my own, well into my twenties.

    And given that I try being as clear as possible when writing my comments, I prefer writing one sentence per paragraph to ease the reading.

    But maybe it's not a good idea because it makes for TL;DR-type comments?

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  211. @Beckow
    @Mr. Hack

    It is not about my opinion. Are you sure that removing the statues is the opinion of people in the American South? I have been there and that's not how they think. Although maybe 'corona' has changed everything...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s not “corona” that’s changed public opinion in the south about the removal of confederate statues, but the death of Mr. Floyd. Google in “removal of confederate statues” and you’ll see scores of articles that point to the changing public opinion of Ameericans and Southerners too as to removal of these arcane relics of the past.

    • Replies: @Matra
    @Mr. Hack

    After Charlottesville polls showed there'd been no change in public opinion regarding Confederate statues, or as you put it "arcane relics of the past". Those "scores of articles" you refer to are just part of a top-down ruling class campaign to change perceptions of reality and also to demoralise and delegitmise the potential resistance to that ruling class from the historical American nation.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    the death of Mr. Floyd
     
    Fact (never mentioned in MSM) is that after the “protests” started, those “protesters” murdered more black people than the police. One example is a black guy murdered in St Louis when he tried to stop “protesters” intent on burglary and looting. Apparently, “Black Lives Matter” is a lie, at least they don’t matter to those repeating this slogan.

    Replies: @AP

  212. @Mr. Hack
    @EldnahYm

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    As far as "honor" goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @EldnahYm

    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    If you condemn Dixie treason, how can you defend the original American treason against the British Crown and Parliament?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    "taxation without representation" is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center. The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason. Also, I'm not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Hyperborean

  213. @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @songbird, @silviosilver

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    That is why I think it should become a holding camp for illegal immigrants to Europe. I don’t know how possible it would be to pull off, but I like the idea of telling them that it is someplace warmer, like France, so that when they are sent back, they spread the idea that Europe is brutally cold in wintertime.

    It would also be nice if there were clouds of mosquitos in summertime.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @songbird


    That is why I think it should become a holding camp for illegal immigrants to Europe.
     
    On Russian-language sites, when someone suggests sending Banderites to Siberia, someone from Siberia always responds that they don’t want scum there, thank you very much. I think the same response would be valid regarding illegals in Europe.
  214. @Mr. Hack
    @EldnahYm

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    As far as "honor" goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @EldnahYm

    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume.

    Lee was a good sport and surrendered, saving many lives. He could have easily called for an insurgency.

    The death toll really had more to do with Lincoln and the abolitionists. The South did not draft an army to invade the North. They should have put Lincoln, Julia Ward Howe, and her husband on the frontline. But they did not – instead they doomed America. And perhaps, Europe as well.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @songbird


    Lee was a good sport and surrendered, saving many lives. He could have easily called for an insurgency.
     
    Lee was an opportunist that made the best deal for himself under the circumstances. He was extremely lucky that he wasn't executed as a traitor, and ended up with a cushy job as a College Dean of a Southern college. Lincoln and the north took the moral high road and laid the future for a truly egalitarian society. Slavery was, is and forever will be an abomination to humanity.
  215. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?
     
    If you condemn Dixie treason, how can you defend the original American treason against the British Crown and Parliament?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    “taxation without representation” is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center. The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason. Also, I’m not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.
     
    Southern states exercised their constitutional right to secede. However, shelling of Ft. Sumter by the SC militia was unlawful. In suppressing secession, the North violated the constitution. In not punishing those responsible for the bombardment of Ft. Sumter the South broke the law. That’s all there is to it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    “taxation without representation” is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center.
     
    That only makes them the same as the large majority of Britons. And the taxes were raised to cover the cost for the Seven Years' War, a war which led to the vast amounts of new land conquered in North America.

    I am not entirely unsympathetic, however. The Quebec Act and the restrictions on westwards lebensraum could be used as a ethnic argument in favour of rebellion.

    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.
     
    The competition that resulted from the issue of imperial expansion and the following incorporation of states is what ruined the American Ausgleich.

    Then there is the economic factors to consider.

    The South wanted low tariffs to export low-value agricultural goods made by bound coercive slave labour to Europe and freely import higher-value goods from Europe.

    The North wanted high tariffs to dampen demand for imports and raise domestic demand for industrial goods produced by free coercive metic labour to develop their burgeoning industrial economy.

    Though both systems caused disasters, they were in contradiction. A much larger contradiction than the one facing the Metropole and the Atlantic colonies.

    Also, I’m not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.
     
    From the Olive Branch Petition:

    To the King's Most Excellent Majesty.

    Most Gracious Sovereign: We, your Majesty's faithful subjects of the Colonies of New-Hampthire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, the Counties of Newcastle, Kent, and Sussex, on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina, in behalf of ourselves and the inhabitants of these Colonies, who have deputed us to represent them in General Congress, entreat your Majesty's gracious attention to this our humble petition.
     
    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Olive_Branch_Petition

    So they acknowledge that they owe fealty, yet they proceeded to break this bond over mere taxes that ultimately that owed its origin to a war that led to a massive expansion of Anglo-Saxon-held land in North America and removed the French threat to the Eastern Seaboard forever.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  216. @Hyperborean
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.
     
    It is possible to put up contextual plaques or move the statue to a less frequented park or similar place.

    Most nations have various and conflicting national-ideological belief-strands. It should be possible to have an ecumenical approach to statues and monuments.

    So in Paris there is the Monument to the Rights of Man:

    https://www.eutouring.com/monument_des_droits_de_l_Homme_b13_DSC04004FP_lrg.JPG

    While at the same time having the conservative Sacre Coeur standing as a national repentance for the decadence of the French people:

    https://laceandgraceblog.com/2017/06/montmartres-gorgeous-sacre-coeur/

    Then there are things like Paris' Stalingrad station which is obviously not named thus because of Stalin's terrors.

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    ---

    Antifa and the black rabble won't just tear down "murderers" or "oligarchs", they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very "progressive" for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago). Even brown or yellow historical figures who were insufficiently obedient towards blacks are liable to be purged.

    The replacements for torn-down statues of legacy Americans and Europeans won't be more "humane" Liberal counterparts, rather it will be something like this:

    https://www.caribbeannationalweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/I-Am-Queen-Mary-statue.jpg

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony, however the real ahistorical motive shines through:


    The torch and the cane bill held in the statue’s hands symbolize the resistance strategies by those who were colonized, the artists said in a statement. Her seated pose “recalls the iconic 1967 photograph of Huey P. Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party.” And the plinth on which her chair rests incorporates “coral cut from the ocean by enslaved Africans gathered from ruins of the foundations of historic buildings on St. Croix.”
     
    https://repeatingislands.com/2018/04/01/denmark-gets-first-public-statue-of-a-caribbean-black-woman-a-rebel-queen/

    http://www.huey.er1ca.com/huey_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22&g2_serialNumber=1

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    https://repeatingislands.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/master675.jpg

    TL;DR - Pulling down historical statues for the sake of black fragility will only end in the triumph of ahistorical black ultranationalism throughout the American Empire.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    Sacré-Coeur is bit of an gypsy oligarch kitsch though – and had undermined some claims of Paris at the time, to be the standard of classical taste.

    On the other hand, it is madly popular with Chinese and American tourists. And Paris is now more a tourist city, than any cultural exporting one.

    It also looks a bit like an imitation of the Hindu temples – so it will probably be futureproofed in terms of tourism value, if India ever becomes rich.

  217. @songbird
    @Mr. Hack


    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume.
     
    Lee was a good sport and surrendered, saving many lives. He could have easily called for an insurgency.

    The death toll really had more to do with Lincoln and the abolitionists. The South did not draft an army to invade the North. They should have put Lincoln, Julia Ward Howe, and her husband on the frontline. But they did not - instead they doomed America. And perhaps, Europe as well.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Lee was a good sport and surrendered, saving many lives. He could have easily called for an insurgency.

    Lee was an opportunist that made the best deal for himself under the circumstances. He was extremely lucky that he wasn’t executed as a traitor, and ended up with a cushy job as a College Dean of a Southern college. Lincoln and the north took the moral high road and laid the future for a truly egalitarian society. Slavery was, is and forever will be an abomination to humanity.

  218. @AP
    @Dmitry


    Just because one historical layer has done some iconoclasm and destruction of historical past, doesn’t mean that you should do iconoclasm of that layer itself. If you do, it is simply an additional increase in loss of history and culture.
     
    In the case of Lenin statues it is removing a layer of dried vomit from a place. Doing so will not bring back what was destroyed, but it will make the place cleaner and more pleasant.

    Although in terms of architectural preservation – in many cities the USSR destroyed historical architecture a lot less rapidly, than the last 30 years of capitalism
     
    Sure, it was too incompetent and poor to achieve all of its ambitions.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    ? It might vary by city, but in Soviet times they build around rather than on top of interesting historical buildings. I can see clearly where they try to build around, rather than on top of the historical building.

    On the hand, with the unregulated capitalism of the last three decades, developers have lost the reticience to demolish anything they want, and there is no longer a taboo against building directly on top of historical buildings.

    If you next time you are in Russia, you will see an interesting wooden building. Make sure to photo it now. Because the next time you return, it might be likely demolished without any care at all, especially if it it was in the centre of the city or occupying potentially profitable land.

  219. @Hartnell
    @AnonFromTN

    To be honest, I don't think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part. It's quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @silviosilver

    It’s quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.

    That’s a pretty common misconception, promoted by globohomo. In fact, if General Winter served in the Red Army, he would have been shot for aiding the enemy. When the Germans advanced on Moscow, it was sufficiently cold to freeze the soil and allow their tanks to move everywhere. When Russian counter-offensive started, it got warmer, so that Soviet tanks could only move on those few roads that existed, as the mud elsewhere obstructed their movement.

  220. @Europe Europa
    @Amerimutt Golems

    The Afrikaners wanted a fight with the British and got it, they invaded British territory first and they whined when they received the consequences.

    "Afrikaners" seem to have this weird idea that they are somehow native to Africa, yet they were colonialists fighting over territory no different to the British. They also brutally slaughtered plenty of British people so don't give me that innocent poor Afrikaner nonsense.

    Replies: @Ano4

    they invaded British territory first

    Afrikaners were there well before the Brits, so how could they invade a British territory?

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Ano4

    And the Khoi-San were there well before the Afrikaners.

    Replies: @Ano4

  221. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Alright already, you've thoroughly convinced me that you're astute enough to construct good meaningful sentences. Now, perhaps it's time to show us that you're equally competent at putting together a full and complete paragraph? :-)

    Replies: @Ano4

    Well, I’m sadly have to admit that English is not my native language.

    I speak four different languages, but English is the one I’ve learned last and on my own, well into my twenties.

    And given that I try being as clear as possible when writing my comments, I prefer writing one sentence per paragraph to ease the reading.

    But maybe it’s not a good idea because it makes for TL;DR-type comments?

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I don't know what "TL;DR" means, but I do know that creating a separate paragraph for every sentence that you write is a bit pompous. There's a reason that paragraphs exist, and I suggest that you find out why. Otherwise, I find your comments (including your sentences) to be quite well written, and applaud you for learning so many languages. My father knew at least 8 different languages, and I was always a bit envious of his language abilities. I've already written that I find your comments to be interesting.

    Replies: @Ano4

  222. @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    "taxation without representation" is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center. The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason. Also, I'm not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Hyperborean

    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.

    Southern states exercised their constitutional right to secede. However, shelling of Ft. Sumter by the SC militia was unlawful. In suppressing secession, the North violated the constitution. In not punishing those responsible for the bombardment of Ft. Sumter the South broke the law. That’s all there is to it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's not at all as simple as you indiccate. Many a good book has been devoted to the topic, written by exellent constiutional lawyers and scholars. Here's a quote from a review of a newer one:


    Treason in the Constitution is levying w U.S.; that was his job.” But, she said, that all changes if Davis wasn’t a U.S. citizen at the time he did soar against the United States,” Nicoletti said. “It was incredibly easy for them to prove that Davis levied war against the. Many in the South, and even some in the North, believed states had the right to leave a union they voluntarily joined...Nicoletti said the Union had decided against a military trial for Davis, which most certainly would have led to a swift verdict against him, resulting in his execution. But Union leaders didn’t wish to appear to strong-arm the outcome with further military force, she said. They wanted the appearance of just deliberation and an outcome that a divided country could perhaps better accept — one based firmly in the Constitution’s right to due process.
     
    https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/201710/was-secession-legal
  223. @songbird
    @AnonFromTN


    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
     
    That is why I think it should become a holding camp for illegal immigrants to Europe. I don't know how possible it would be to pull off, but I like the idea of telling them that it is someplace warmer, like France, so that when they are sent back, they spread the idea that Europe is brutally cold in wintertime.

    It would also be nice if there were clouds of mosquitos in summertime.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    That is why I think it should become a holding camp for illegal immigrants to Europe.

    On Russian-language sites, when someone suggests sending Banderites to Siberia, someone from Siberia always responds that they don’t want scum there, thank you very much. I think the same response would be valid regarding illegals in Europe.

  224. @Europe Europa
    Why do pro-Nazi types always blame Churchill/the English for destroying Germany?

    I mean it was Russia who really destroyed Germany, yet they seem to avoid all criticism for it from these people?

    Replies: @Matra, @sudden death

    Why do pro-Nazi types always blame Churchill/the English for destroying Germany?

    Because they are mostly German and Irish Americans – or at least they identify as such – who hate Anglo-Saxons in general and the English in particular. (They also don’t see Poles or Czechs as actual nations but that’s a side issue here).

    Prior to the events of recent weeks several jurisdictions in Canada took down statues of the country’s first prime minister, Sir John A Macdonald, despite his only ‘crime’ being that he began the residential schools system for Indians/Natives/Aboriginals or whatever they are called this week. This was largely innocuous and well-intentioned but, like all school systems over a period of a century, had the occasional case of ‘abuse’ – loosely defined. Canadian academia & media make it clear that you must consider residential schools abuse the Canadian equivalent of slavery, Jim Crow and the Holocaust or you will be considered an untouchable racist. Canadian leftists have always been deeply jealous of the race grievances that have been available for exploitation to their American counterparts so they’ve had to settle on this after previous attempts to exploit an 1885 head tax on Chinese and a ‘racist’ refusal in 1914 to allow in illegal aliens from the Punjab largely fell flat with the public.

    Anyway, as Canada is tearing down its European heritage about two years ago Winnipeg got its very own Muhammad Ali Jinnah Park. Jinnah was the founder of Pakistan, a country many of today’s immigrants to Canada originated in.

  225. @Mr. Hack
    @EldnahYm

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    As far as "honor" goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @EldnahYm

    Even sports teams have enough sense not to build monuments to their vanquished foes after surviving the throes of competitive battle. Go to the home of any sports team and show me any trophies or plaques that belong to those of their opposing teams?

    If people didn’t care about who won or lost a sports competition, there would be no incentive for the sports to go on. Furthermore, sports competition are repeated annually, so all the incentives are for repeating the conflicts. War is not the same dynamic. People care about who wins or loses because it has real world consequences that impact them. It also makes little sense to wish to stir up further hatred, because people generally do not want another war. That was the whole point of re-integrating the south after the failure of Reconstruction.

    As far as “honor” goes, I personally see none when those for whom such a description is applied for includes treason and the needless deaths of more than 600,000 young soldiers within their historic resume. Perhaps, a statue of Benedict Arnold should be constructed somewhere too, the original American traitor?

    Well, the current popular narrative is that the Civil War was necessary to end slavery. I’m not sure that’s entirely true, on the other hand, it is clear that earlier compromises were a political failure. One thing the American Civil War did do was end the disagreements about slavery once and for all.

  226. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    It's not "corona" that's changed public opinion in the south about the removal of confederate statues, but the death of Mr. Floyd. Google in "removal of confederate statues" and you'll see scores of articles that point to the changing public opinion of Ameericans and Southerners too as to removal of these arcane relics of the past.

    Replies: @Matra, @AnonFromTN

    After Charlottesville polls showed there’d been no change in public opinion regarding Confederate statues, or as you put it “arcane relics of the past”. Those “scores of articles” you refer to are just part of a top-down ruling class campaign to change perceptions of reality and also to demoralise and delegitmise the potential resistance to that ruling class from the historical American nation.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Matra

    Perhaps, but opinion polls show that after the Floyd affair, more and more Americans are willing to have these statues torn down. I'm aware that we're entering the realm of what came first "the chicken or the egg?" If what you say is true, then the elites are winning the war of propaganda.

  227. @Europe Europa
    Why do pro-Nazi types always blame Churchill/the English for destroying Germany?

    I mean it was Russia who really destroyed Germany, yet they seem to avoid all criticism for it from these people?

    Replies: @Matra, @sudden death

    cause these days significant share of them are getting the funding from RF and you are not allowed to criticize the ones who pay you 😉 ofc, also simply beaten puppy Stockholm syndrome may also play a role without any conspiracies or financial incentives too.

  228. @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    "taxation without representation" is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center. The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason. Also, I'm not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Hyperborean

    “taxation without representation” is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center.

    That only makes them the same as the large majority of Britons. And the taxes were raised to cover the cost for the Seven Years’ War, a war which led to the vast amounts of new land conquered in North America.

    I am not entirely unsympathetic, however. The Quebec Act and the restrictions on westwards lebensraum could be used as a ethnic argument in favour of rebellion.

    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.

    The competition that resulted from the issue of imperial expansion and the following incorporation of states is what ruined the American Ausgleich.

    Then there is the economic factors to consider.

    The South wanted low tariffs to export low-value agricultural goods made by bound coercive slave labour to Europe and freely import higher-value goods from Europe.

    The North wanted high tariffs to dampen demand for imports and raise domestic demand for industrial goods produced by free coercive metic labour to develop their burgeoning industrial economy.

    Though both systems caused disasters, they were in contradiction. A much larger contradiction than the one facing the Metropole and the Atlantic colonies.

    Also, I’m not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.

    From the Olive Branch Petition:

    To the King’s Most Excellent Majesty.

    Most Gracious Sovereign: We, your Majesty’s faithful subjects of the Colonies of New-Hampthire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, the Counties of Newcastle, Kent, and Sussex, on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina, in behalf of ourselves and the inhabitants of these Colonies, who have deputed us to represent them in General Congress, entreat your Majesty’s gracious attention to this our humble petition.

    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Olive_Branch_Petition

    So they acknowledge that they owe fealty, yet they proceeded to break this bond over mere taxes that ultimately that owed its origin to a war that led to a massive expansion of Anglo-Saxon-held land in North America and removed the French threat to the Eastern Seaboard forever.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    All of history including human affairs are very complicated, as you've so eloquently pointed out. I guess that at the end of the day, unfortunately, "might makes right." And also that it's always the victors that get to write the "official history" of the war that they've won and all of its antecedent events.

  229. @Matra
    @Mr. Hack

    After Charlottesville polls showed there'd been no change in public opinion regarding Confederate statues, or as you put it "arcane relics of the past". Those "scores of articles" you refer to are just part of a top-down ruling class campaign to change perceptions of reality and also to demoralise and delegitmise the potential resistance to that ruling class from the historical American nation.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps, but opinion polls show that after the Floyd affair, more and more Americans are willing to have these statues torn down. I’m aware that we’re entering the realm of what came first “the chicken or the egg?” If what you say is true, then the elites are winning the war of propaganda.

  230. @Ano4
    @Europe Europa


    they invaded British territory first
     
    Afrikaners were there well before the Brits, so how could they invade a British territory?

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    And the Khoi-San were there well before the Afrikaners.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Europe Europa

    Sure, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the British-Boer wars.

  231. @Hartnell
    @Swedish Family

    Sweden and Minnesota do not get as cold as Mother Russia. Black people can cope at -2c but when it gets to -10c they stay indoors. Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

    If you have a normal city life – and do not work outside -, you will feel more cold most of the time in Ireland, than you will in Siberia. In the winter, you are mainly inside buildings, and how cold you feel is more function of the temperature inside buildings, than of temperatures outside. Siberian cities have comparatively warm inside buildings and heating.

    As for African immigrants – they will not immigrate to Siberia. They want to immigrate (like everyone) to the most wealthy liberal welfare countries, e.g.: Sweden, Germany, Norway, UK, etc.

  232. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, I'm sadly have to admit that English is not my native language.

    I speak four different languages, but English is the one I've learned last and on my own, well into my twenties.

    And given that I try being as clear as possible when writing my comments, I prefer writing one sentence per paragraph to ease the reading.

    But maybe it's not a good idea because it makes for TL;DR-type comments?

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I don’t know what “TL;DR” means, but I do know that creating a separate paragraph for every sentence that you write is a bit pompous. There’s a reason that paragraphs exist, and I suggest that you find out why. Otherwise, I find your comments (including your sentences) to be quite well written, and applaud you for learning so many languages. My father knew at least 8 different languages, and I was always a bit envious of his language abilities. I’ve already written that I find your comments to be interesting.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    TL;DR means Too Long ; Didn't Read.

    It didn't come to my mind that people might find my manner of writing pompous.

    I was just trying to make myself as clear as possible, while writing in a foreign language that I do not use on a daily basis.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  233. @Mr. Hack
    @Beckow

    It's not "corona" that's changed public opinion in the south about the removal of confederate statues, but the death of Mr. Floyd. Google in "removal of confederate statues" and you'll see scores of articles that point to the changing public opinion of Ameericans and Southerners too as to removal of these arcane relics of the past.

    Replies: @Matra, @AnonFromTN

    the death of Mr. Floyd

    Fact (never mentioned in MSM) is that after the “protests” started, those “protesters” murdered more black people than the police. One example is a black guy murdered in St Louis when he tried to stop “protesters” intent on burglary and looting. Apparently, “Black Lives Matter” is a lie, at least they don’t matter to those repeating this slogan.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    You missed the most ridiculous thing. It is tragic, because people were murdered, but captures the real essence of these protests:

    Two black lives matter activists were murdered. One of them, 19 year old Oluwatoyin Salau, prior to her disappearance had proclaimed at a speech in Florida: "“. Y’all need to remember who the fucking enemy is. It’s racist — white, racist, Tallahassee."

    It turns out that she was raped and murdered by a black man. He murdered a second activist, too, a 75 year old white woman.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/oluwatoyin-salau-found-dead-florida-black-lives-matter

    Notice that the left-wing Buzzfeed does not mention the race of the murderer. Fox does.

    Thus we see how the entire BLM debacle is a major distraction from the real problem, which is black crime, whose principal victims are blacks. Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police, the very people who fight crime, thus enabling more murders and rapes of the black people whom they manipulate for their own purposes.

    This could be the plot of a very dark comedy, but because real people have been murdered it is simply and utterly disgusting.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  234. @Europe Europa
    @Ano4

    And the Khoi-San were there well before the Afrikaners.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Sure, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the British-Boer wars.

  235. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.
     
    Southern states exercised their constitutional right to secede. However, shelling of Ft. Sumter by the SC militia was unlawful. In suppressing secession, the North violated the constitution. In not punishing those responsible for the bombardment of Ft. Sumter the South broke the law. That’s all there is to it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s not at all as simple as you indiccate. Many a good book has been devoted to the topic, written by exellent constiutional lawyers and scholars. Here’s a quote from a review of a newer one:

    Treason in the Constitution is levying w U.S.; that was his job.” But, she said, that all changes if Davis wasn’t a U.S. citizen at the time he did soar against the United States,” Nicoletti said. “It was incredibly easy for them to prove that Davis levied war against the. Many in the South, and even some in the North, believed states had the right to leave a union they voluntarily joined…Nicoletti said the Union had decided against a military trial for Davis, which most certainly would have led to a swift verdict against him, resulting in his execution. But Union leaders didn’t wish to appear to strong-arm the outcome with further military force, she said. They wanted the appearance of just deliberation and an outcome that a divided country could perhaps better accept — one based firmly in the Constitution’s right to due process.

    https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/201710/was-secession-legal

  236. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I don't know what "TL;DR" means, but I do know that creating a separate paragraph for every sentence that you write is a bit pompous. There's a reason that paragraphs exist, and I suggest that you find out why. Otherwise, I find your comments (including your sentences) to be quite well written, and applaud you for learning so many languages. My father knew at least 8 different languages, and I was always a bit envious of his language abilities. I've already written that I find your comments to be interesting.

    Replies: @Ano4

    TL;DR means Too Long ; Didn’t Read.

    It didn’t come to my mind that people might find my manner of writing pompous.

    I was just trying to make myself as clear as possible, while writing in a foreign language that I do not use on a daily basis.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I'm probably being too hard on you. Continue to write in any manner that you prefer, I shouldn't be so judgmental. After all, I'm only a "hack" writer. :-)

  237. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    “taxation without representation” is what spurred the separation of new colonial lands from the center.
     
    That only makes them the same as the large majority of Britons. And the taxes were raised to cover the cost for the Seven Years' War, a war which led to the vast amounts of new land conquered in North America.

    I am not entirely unsympathetic, however. The Quebec Act and the restrictions on westwards lebensraum could be used as a ethnic argument in favour of rebellion.

    The South enjoyed perfect representation within the union and abrogated these rights once it went down the road of treason.
     
    The competition that resulted from the issue of imperial expansion and the following incorporation of states is what ruined the American Ausgleich.

    Then there is the economic factors to consider.

    The South wanted low tariffs to export low-value agricultural goods made by bound coercive slave labour to Europe and freely import higher-value goods from Europe.

    The North wanted high tariffs to dampen demand for imports and raise domestic demand for industrial goods produced by free coercive metic labour to develop their burgeoning industrial economy.

    Though both systems caused disasters, they were in contradiction. A much larger contradiction than the one facing the Metropole and the Atlantic colonies.

    Also, I’m not aware of any oaths that the English settlers had made to the crown that were broken.
     
    From the Olive Branch Petition:

    To the King's Most Excellent Majesty.

    Most Gracious Sovereign: We, your Majesty's faithful subjects of the Colonies of New-Hampthire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, the Counties of Newcastle, Kent, and Sussex, on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina, in behalf of ourselves and the inhabitants of these Colonies, who have deputed us to represent them in General Congress, entreat your Majesty's gracious attention to this our humble petition.
     
    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Olive_Branch_Petition

    So they acknowledge that they owe fealty, yet they proceeded to break this bond over mere taxes that ultimately that owed its origin to a war that led to a massive expansion of Anglo-Saxon-held land in North America and removed the French threat to the Eastern Seaboard forever.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    All of history including human affairs are very complicated, as you’ve so eloquently pointed out. I guess that at the end of the day, unfortunately, “might makes right.” And also that it’s always the victors that get to write the “official history” of the war that they’ve won and all of its antecedent events.

  238. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    TL;DR means Too Long ; Didn't Read.

    It didn't come to my mind that people might find my manner of writing pompous.

    I was just trying to make myself as clear as possible, while writing in a foreign language that I do not use on a daily basis.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’m probably being too hard on you. Continue to write in any manner that you prefer, I shouldn’t be so judgmental. After all, I’m only a “hack” writer. 🙂

  239. @songbird
    @Amerimutt Golems

    Rhodes was gay, conspired against the Boers, and indirectly helped create the Oppenheimer fortune - by rights, they should worship him.

    The same with all the others, even though they weren't homos. Colston greatly increased the number of copies of black genes and their geographic spread. Indirectly, he helped found some of the wealthiest black countries - tourist destinations and offshore banks. He was involved in the foundation of negrolatry in the US, so it could be exported elsewhere.

    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves and that's what they have against him - giving tropical island paradises to Africans.

    It was because of Francis Drake that the Spanish crown promoted miscegenation on Hispaniola, forming the Dominican people today. There are over two million of them in the US - they formed part of the demographic tidal wave that inundated it. (And similar claims could be made about black Caribs in Britain) And I could go on and on...

    Replies: @RSDB

    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves

    Did newly free slaves actually want to go back to the slave societies in Africa where they were enslaved and sold in the first place?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @RSDB

    I think the ones who were born overseas were generally pretty reluctant to go to Africa, but I'm not sure about the others.

    Replies: @RSDB

  240. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    How much of the Indian obsession with Churchill is a consequence of the failed experiment to use him as a unifying figure, a villain, in Indian schoolbooks, to galvanize the castes to form one nation?

    And how much of it is simply invading Indians seizing a niche in the Jewish narrative-ecology of WW2? Hitler is a big man, therefore Churchill is a big man. But he's not a hero - he's just like Hitler - take that, Englishman! Remember when there were a few of you were in our country, banning sati and building train tracks? Well, we are going to wipe you off the map, while calling you racists!

    Smart Indians like Priti Patel, take the nuanced approached of defending Churchill, while calling native Brits racists, in order to promote the anti-racist narrative of WW2 and continue the genocide of the British people. Right now, she and Sadiq Khan are slavering at the mouth at the prospect of importing millions of Hong Kongers, without asking native Brits, even though she probably otherwise hates the Chinese.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    continue the genocide of the British people

    What a bizarre viewpoint. Ask how many native brits feel ‘genocided’, I doubt you’d come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    In reality, immigrants to the UK learn the language and are attracted by the culture. Just ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he’d stay as long as he has. And the UK’s attraction has meant he has had to adapt far more to them than vice versa. That sounds like cultural victory, rather than being him contributing to the ‘genocide’ of the UK

    A big issue for many right-wingers is that they think they speak for all whites. Many whites, in fact the vast majority, have liberal and left-wing views on identity in the West. And many immigrants can and do indeed contribute to the cultural fabric.

    At any rate, contructing an immigration system based on nationality is deeply flawed and should be discarded, but that’s another discussion.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Thulean Friend

    All the British establishment has done since 1948 is import blacks and Muslims and severely punish anyone who speaks out against it. We're not at the South African guns and machete point yet, but with the violence against British patriots in London over the weekend we're edging ever closer to it.

    Judging from what I've seen of Dmitry's posts and opinions of Britain, I get the impression he has a good job, lives an upper middle class lifestyle and enjoys the "cosmopolitan" nature of British cities, most upper middle class British people share that opinion. The experience of working class native British people who have to live in violent, immigrant infested areas is very different however, maybe you think all native British people are wealthy and live in nice suburbs or something?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he’d stay
     
    Personally, I haven't seen anything even slightly scary in England - no crimes, no fighting, no ethnic genocides, etc.

    But I also didn't visit many places, no car, and I'm just going in a small circle. It's definitely true that "good areas are good" and that people have a high standard of life - and not bad professional opportunities - in the small area of the country which I've stayed at.

    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    Ask how many native brits feel ‘genocided’, I doubt you’d come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.
     
    Don't play with tenses. It is a long, drawn-out process - happening now and taking decades to complete. It doesn't happen to individuals; it happens to a people. The British are projected to be a minority by 2060. That is including octogenarians - they are already very close to being a minority in births. You think that does no harm to them? You think that they can make it to 2160, under current trends? What about 2260?

    It is not about killing them - it is about destroying them as a people, by eradicating their bio-culture. Making it difficult for British people to reproduce by pushing them out of the economic centers like London, raising their rents with endless immigration, and humiliating them by eradicating their proud history and identity, calling them "white British" and teaching them to be ashamed.

    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British, not among a rainbow of peoples. There are many aspects to it, but needless to say, this why some of them go ape-shit insane, signaling with no limit their obsequiousness before anyone with darker skin, and especially those with the darkest skin. This is why many of them become trannies.

    Laura Towler conducted a survey of over 2000 British by walking the streets with volunteers. People had every reason to fear giving an honest answer, yet 68.5% of respondents answered that they believe becoming a minority is a “bad thing”. Only 4.8% of respondents answered that they believe it is a “good thing.”

    You have accused me of making crazed statements, but you say invasion is a cultural victory.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  241. @Hyperborean
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s perfectly possible to remind people of less-than-ideal aspects of history through history books and teachers. Statues don’t speak to people, they merely inform the already informed. A constant reminder of who society deems worthy of elevation.
     
    It is possible to put up contextual plaques or move the statue to a less frequented park or similar place.

    Most nations have various and conflicting national-ideological belief-strands. It should be possible to have an ecumenical approach to statues and monuments.

    So in Paris there is the Monument to the Rights of Man:

    https://www.eutouring.com/monument_des_droits_de_l_Homme_b13_DSC04004FP_lrg.JPG

    While at the same time having the conservative Sacre Coeur standing as a national repentance for the decadence of the French people:

    https://laceandgraceblog.com/2017/06/montmartres-gorgeous-sacre-coeur/

    Then there are things like Paris' Stalingrad station which is obviously not named thus because of Stalin's terrors.

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    ---

    Antifa and the black rabble won't just tear down "murderers" or "oligarchs", they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very "progressive" for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago). Even brown or yellow historical figures who were insufficiently obedient towards blacks are liable to be purged.

    The replacements for torn-down statues of legacy Americans and Europeans won't be more "humane" Liberal counterparts, rather it will be something like this:

    https://www.caribbeannationalweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/I-Am-Queen-Mary-statue.jpg

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony, however the real ahistorical motive shines through:


    The torch and the cane bill held in the statue’s hands symbolize the resistance strategies by those who were colonized, the artists said in a statement. Her seated pose “recalls the iconic 1967 photograph of Huey P. Newton, founder of the Black Panther Party.” And the plinth on which her chair rests incorporates “coral cut from the ocean by enslaved Africans gathered from ruins of the foundations of historic buildings on St. Croix.”
     
    https://repeatingislands.com/2018/04/01/denmark-gets-first-public-statue-of-a-caribbean-black-woman-a-rebel-queen/

    http://www.huey.er1ca.com/huey_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22&g2_serialNumber=1

    Ironically, the two half-breed women would have slaughtered (and likely raped before) had they lived during the glorious Haitian Revolution.

    https://repeatingislands.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/master675.jpg

    TL;DR - Pulling down historical statues for the sake of black fragility will only end in the triumph of ahistorical black ultranationalism throughout the American Empire.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.

    Most of the people pulling down Colston the slaver’s statue in Bristol were white. So your characterisation/smear that these are some uppity minorities who hate white people is factually incorrect.

    Antifa and the black rabble won’t just tear down “murderers” or “oligarchs”, they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very “progressive” for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago)

    Most people who were “progressive” in centuries past wouldn’t be so today, which is why everyone would need a re-evaluation. As I’ve repeatedly made clear, those you choose to venerate in the public square isn’t just a sterile statement of the past; it’s an affirmation of your values in the present.

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony

    I didn’t know about this statue but I’m impressed with the Danes. I find no fault in praising a woman who fought against serfdom. As for Huey P. Newton, his legacy is complex. The party he founded was created in a social environment where Jim Crow laws were still on the books, but I don’t think anyone can deny that the party degenerated into a cult of violent and embezzlement after some years. On this instance, I’d agree with you that the forced attempt to meme him into her statue was misguided and wrong. The woman should have been allowed to be representating only herself without any additional baggage.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Thulean Friend


    Most of the people pulling down Colston the slaver’s statue in Bristol were white. So your characterisation/smear that these are some uppity minorities who hate white people is factually incorrect.
     
    Minority as in people are not a majority, as in "Bolsheviks claimed to represent the Russian people despite only receiving a quarter of votes". I try not to use "minority" in that PC American way.

    But you brought up a good point, there are a lot of cargo-culting Europeans who will copy anything from New York and California. These traitors should be noted.

    Most people who were “progressive” in centuries past wouldn’t be so today, which is why everyone would need a re-evaluation. As I’ve repeatedly made clear, those you choose to venerate in the public square isn’t just a sterile statement of the past; it’s an affirmation of your values in the present.
     
    In our purity-spiraling culture where the bounds of acceptable progressivism gets more radical from year to year, it will end in a purge of any kind of history (except black nationalism) that existed before the Current Year and replaced by tacky and ugly monuments to random metic criminals and activists.
  242. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    continue the genocide of the British people
     
    What a bizarre viewpoint. Ask how many native brits feel 'genocided', I doubt you'd come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    In reality, immigrants to the UK learn the language and are attracted by the culture. Just ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he'd stay as long as he has. And the UK's attraction has meant he has had to adapt far more to them than vice versa. That sounds like cultural victory, rather than being him contributing to the 'genocide' of the UK

    A big issue for many right-wingers is that they think they speak for all whites. Many whites, in fact the vast majority, have liberal and left-wing views on identity in the West. And many immigrants can and do indeed contribute to the cultural fabric.

    At any rate, contructing an immigration system based on nationality is deeply flawed and should be discarded, but that's another discussion.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Dmitry, @songbird

    All the British establishment has done since 1948 is import blacks and Muslims and severely punish anyone who speaks out against it. We’re not at the South African guns and machete point yet, but with the violence against British patriots in London over the weekend we’re edging ever closer to it.

    Judging from what I’ve seen of Dmitry’s posts and opinions of Britain, I get the impression he has a good job, lives an upper middle class lifestyle and enjoys the “cosmopolitan” nature of British cities, most upper middle class British people share that opinion. The experience of working class native British people who have to live in violent, immigrant infested areas is very different however, maybe you think all native British people are wealthy and live in nice suburbs or something?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Europe Europa


    Dmitry’s posts and opinions of Britain
     
    Sure I don't have time to see much of Great Britain.

    But anecdotally - I've walked all across London and didn't see anything dangerous. Whereas in America, I've seen a worse atmosphere walking in middle class tourist areas.


    British people who have to live in violent, immigrant

     

    When you say "violent" of England, what is the standard? Most people in the forum are American, and live in cities like Chicago. In Chicago, 66 people can be shot in a weekend.

    Also police in America, can be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBUUx0jUKxc

  243. I don’t get why the legacy of Churchill in particular is being so ferociously attacked by the left, yet the legacy of people like De Gaulle, Eisenhower, etc, is not. He made a few “racist” statements, but you’d be hard pressed to find a major figure of that era or earlier who didn’t, even Marx and Gandhi made “racist” statements.

    The sustained and concerted attacks on Churchill’s legacy at the moment doesn’t make much sense to me, I don’t understand it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Europe Europa

    If you consider Hollywood to be part and parcel of "the left" than by no means is Churchill's legacy being totally diminished. The 2017 film "Darkest Hour" won all manner of international film awards and was a film that portrayed Churchill in an overall positive light. Filmgoers, also bestowed this film with positive feelings as evidenced by a Rotten Tomatoes approval rating of 85% and " PostTrak reported that over 90% of audience members gave the film a rating of either "excellent" or "very good".

  244. @Hartnell
    @AnonFromTN

    To be honest, I don't think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part. It's quite amusing to think but what will inevitably save Russia once again is General Winter.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @silviosilver

    I don’t think blacks would want to live in Russia either since it gets to -20c in winter around the European part.

    Cope, cope, cope.

    Canada’s hardly any warmer but there’s no shortage of blacks who want to live there.

    “Beggars can’t be choosers” – that is African emigration in a nutshell. They just want out of the dark continent. They may have their preferences, but they’ll take anything they can get.

  245. @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    Siberia gets to -45c on average in winter time. The vast majority of blacks would not want to live in that climate.
    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @songbird, @silviosilver

    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.

    You don’t sound like you’re going to much miss it.

    There is an unseemly glee in your tone whenever you discuss the west’s demographic problems.

    I will not return the favor because “negrify thy neighbor” policies only ensure we’ll all lose.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @silviosilver

    Professor Tennessee Tuxedo is filled with a lot of sour-grapes, and loves Russia and everything associated with it, but is perfectly content to live the gastbeiter's existence in his new homeland of "backwoods" Tennessee. :-)

    , @AnonFromTN
    @silviosilver

    Europe used to be good for vacations. Much better than Disneyland, because it is real. But after Paris started looking like Dakar, I’d rather spend my vacations elsewhere. I am going to miss Europe, but the world is big.

    Europe and the US cannot complain: they committed suicide. Russia, Asia, and Latin America are still alive. Lots of vacation destinations there.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  246. @Europe Europa
    I don't get why the legacy of Churchill in particular is being so ferociously attacked by the left, yet the legacy of people like De Gaulle, Eisenhower, etc, is not. He made a few "racist" statements, but you'd be hard pressed to find a major figure of that era or earlier who didn't, even Marx and Gandhi made "racist" statements.

    The sustained and concerted attacks on Churchill's legacy at the moment doesn't make much sense to me, I don't understand it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    If you consider Hollywood to be part and parcel of “the left” than by no means is Churchill’s legacy being totally diminished. The 2017 film “Darkest Hour” won all manner of international film awards and was a film that portrayed Churchill in an overall positive light. Filmgoers, also bestowed this film with positive feelings as evidenced by a Rotten Tomatoes approval rating of 85% and ” PostTrak reported that over 90% of audience members gave the film a rating of either “excellent” or “very good”.

  247. @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN


    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.
     
    You don't sound like you're going to much miss it.

    There is an unseemly glee in your tone whenever you discuss the west's demographic problems.

    I will not return the favor because "negrify thy neighbor" policies only ensure we'll all lose.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    Professor Tennessee Tuxedo is filled with a lot of sour-grapes, and loves Russia and everything associated with it, but is perfectly content to live the gastbeiter’s existence in his new homeland of “backwoods” Tennessee. 🙂

  248. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    continue the genocide of the British people
     
    What a bizarre viewpoint. Ask how many native brits feel 'genocided', I doubt you'd come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    In reality, immigrants to the UK learn the language and are attracted by the culture. Just ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he'd stay as long as he has. And the UK's attraction has meant he has had to adapt far more to them than vice versa. That sounds like cultural victory, rather than being him contributing to the 'genocide' of the UK

    A big issue for many right-wingers is that they think they speak for all whites. Many whites, in fact the vast majority, have liberal and left-wing views on identity in the West. And many immigrants can and do indeed contribute to the cultural fabric.

    At any rate, contructing an immigration system based on nationality is deeply flawed and should be discarded, but that's another discussion.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Dmitry, @songbird

    ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he’d stay

    Personally, I haven’t seen anything even slightly scary in England – no crimes, no fighting, no ethnic genocides, etc.

    But I also didn’t visit many places, no car, and I’m just going in a small circle. It’s definitely true that “good areas are good” and that people have a high standard of life – and not bad professional opportunities – in the small area of the country which I’ve stayed at.

  249. @Europe Europa
    @Thulean Friend

    All the British establishment has done since 1948 is import blacks and Muslims and severely punish anyone who speaks out against it. We're not at the South African guns and machete point yet, but with the violence against British patriots in London over the weekend we're edging ever closer to it.

    Judging from what I've seen of Dmitry's posts and opinions of Britain, I get the impression he has a good job, lives an upper middle class lifestyle and enjoys the "cosmopolitan" nature of British cities, most upper middle class British people share that opinion. The experience of working class native British people who have to live in violent, immigrant infested areas is very different however, maybe you think all native British people are wealthy and live in nice suburbs or something?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Dmitry’s posts and opinions of Britain

    Sure I don’t have time to see much of Great Britain.

    But anecdotally – I’ve walked all across London and didn’t see anything dangerous. Whereas in America, I’ve seen a worse atmosphere walking in middle class tourist areas.

    British people who have to live in violent, immigrant

    When you say “violent” of England, what is the standard? Most people in the forum are American, and live in cities like Chicago. In Chicago, 66 people can be shot in a weekend.

    Also police in America, can be:

  250. @RSDB
    @songbird


    William Gladstone repatriated the slave-owners AND NOT the slaves
     
    Did newly free slaves actually want to go back to the slave societies in Africa where they were enslaved and sold in the first place?

    Replies: @songbird

    I think the ones who were born overseas were generally pretty reluctant to go to Africa, but I’m not sure about the others.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @songbird

    I suppose some could have been sent to Freetown but in that case they would simply be part of the British colonial effort in Africa.

    Replies: @songbird

  251. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    continue the genocide of the British people
     
    What a bizarre viewpoint. Ask how many native brits feel 'genocided', I doubt you'd come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    In reality, immigrants to the UK learn the language and are attracted by the culture. Just ask Dmitry. If things were so bad there, I doubt he'd stay as long as he has. And the UK's attraction has meant he has had to adapt far more to them than vice versa. That sounds like cultural victory, rather than being him contributing to the 'genocide' of the UK

    A big issue for many right-wingers is that they think they speak for all whites. Many whites, in fact the vast majority, have liberal and left-wing views on identity in the West. And many immigrants can and do indeed contribute to the cultural fabric.

    At any rate, contructing an immigration system based on nationality is deeply flawed and should be discarded, but that's another discussion.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Dmitry, @songbird

    Ask how many native brits feel ‘genocided’, I doubt you’d come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.

    Don’t play with tenses. It is a long, drawn-out process – happening now and taking decades to complete. It doesn’t happen to individuals; it happens to a people. The British are projected to be a minority by 2060. That is including octogenarians – they are already very close to being a minority in births. You think that does no harm to them? You think that they can make it to 2160, under current trends? What about 2260?

    It is not about killing them – it is about destroying them as a people, by eradicating their bio-culture. Making it difficult for British people to reproduce by pushing them out of the economic centers like London, raising their rents with endless immigration, and humiliating them by eradicating their proud history and identity, calling them “white British” and teaching them to be ashamed.

    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British, not among a rainbow of peoples. There are many aspects to it, but needless to say, this why some of them go ape-shit insane, signaling with no limit their obsequiousness before anyone with darker skin, and especially those with the darkest skin. This is why many of them become trannies.

    Laura Towler conducted a survey of over 2000 British by walking the streets with volunteers. People had every reason to fear giving an honest answer, yet 68.5% of respondents answered that they believe becoming a minority is a “bad thing”. Only 4.8% of respondents answered that they believe it is a “good thing.”

    You have accused me of making crazed statements, but you say invasion is a cultural victory.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British
     
    British is a new invention. If you're so concerned about "cultural genocide", why are you so merrily accepting of an identity that subsumed many others? What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?

    Cultural metamorphosis is a constant historical process. Trying to preserve any 'purity' is a fool's errand and at odds with human nature. All of us have had many ancestors who were "culturally genocided" when they were introduced and merged into larger metacultural groups. Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird

  252. @Thulean Friend
    @Hyperborean


    I would also note that there is a difference between deciding whether or not erect a new statue is different from minority rioters who have no desire for measuring or securing public approval tearing down an old one.
     
    Most of the people pulling down Colston the slaver's statue in Bristol were white. So your characterisation/smear that these are some uppity minorities who hate white people is factually incorrect.

    Antifa and the black rabble won’t just tear down “murderers” or “oligarchs”, they will tear down or otherwise desecrate war memorials, statues of people who were very “progressive” for their time but are now horrifically reactionary (a boundary which ranges from 18th century individuals to people who said something wrong a few years ago)
     
    Most people who were "progressive" in centuries past wouldn't be so today, which is why everyone would need a re-evaluation. As I've repeatedly made clear, those you choose to venerate in the public square isn't just a sterile statement of the past; it's an affirmation of your values in the present.

    Ostensibly this is about some irrelevant and long forgotten black rebel woman in a Danish colony
     
    I didn't know about this statue but I'm impressed with the Danes. I find no fault in praising a woman who fought against serfdom. As for Huey P. Newton, his legacy is complex. The party he founded was created in a social environment where Jim Crow laws were still on the books, but I don't think anyone can deny that the party degenerated into a cult of violent and embezzlement after some years. On this instance, I'd agree with you that the forced attempt to meme him into her statue was misguided and wrong. The woman should have been allowed to be representating only herself without any additional baggage.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Most of the people pulling down Colston the slaver’s statue in Bristol were white. So your characterisation/smear that these are some uppity minorities who hate white people is factually incorrect.

    Minority as in people are not a majority, as in “Bolsheviks claimed to represent the Russian people despite only receiving a quarter of votes”. I try not to use “minority” in that PC American way.

    But you brought up a good point, there are a lot of cargo-culting Europeans who will copy anything from New York and California. These traitors should be noted.

    Most people who were “progressive” in centuries past wouldn’t be so today, which is why everyone would need a re-evaluation. As I’ve repeatedly made clear, those you choose to venerate in the public square isn’t just a sterile statement of the past; it’s an affirmation of your values in the present.

    In our purity-spiraling culture where the bounds of acceptable progressivism gets more radical from year to year, it will end in a purge of any kind of history (except black nationalism) that existed before the Current Year and replaced by tacky and ugly monuments to random metic criminals and activists.

  253. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    Ask how many native brits feel ‘genocided’, I doubt you’d come to even 2-3% of the sample population. These crazed statements detracts from the discussion.
     
    Don't play with tenses. It is a long, drawn-out process - happening now and taking decades to complete. It doesn't happen to individuals; it happens to a people. The British are projected to be a minority by 2060. That is including octogenarians - they are already very close to being a minority in births. You think that does no harm to them? You think that they can make it to 2160, under current trends? What about 2260?

    It is not about killing them - it is about destroying them as a people, by eradicating their bio-culture. Making it difficult for British people to reproduce by pushing them out of the economic centers like London, raising their rents with endless immigration, and humiliating them by eradicating their proud history and identity, calling them "white British" and teaching them to be ashamed.

    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British, not among a rainbow of peoples. There are many aspects to it, but needless to say, this why some of them go ape-shit insane, signaling with no limit their obsequiousness before anyone with darker skin, and especially those with the darkest skin. This is why many of them become trannies.

    Laura Towler conducted a survey of over 2000 British by walking the streets with volunteers. People had every reason to fear giving an honest answer, yet 68.5% of respondents answered that they believe becoming a minority is a “bad thing”. Only 4.8% of respondents answered that they believe it is a “good thing.”

    You have accused me of making crazed statements, but you say invasion is a cultural victory.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British

    British is a new invention. If you’re so concerned about “cultural genocide”, why are you so merrily accepting of an identity that subsumed many others? What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?

    Cultural metamorphosis is a constant historical process. Trying to preserve any ‘purity’ is a fool’s errand and at odds with human nature. All of us have had many ancestors who were “culturally genocided” when they were introduced and merged into larger metacultural groups. Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Thulean Friend


    Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.
     
    Diseases are a natural process of life too. It doesn't mean we don't try to prevent them.

    FFS, using your logic, even murder is a natural process of life. We know we'll never completely eradicate it, but that doesn't stop us trying.

    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?
     
    Anytime you have to break out a time machine to construct an empathic argument, then that is probably a bridge too far, but I will try to engage with what your saying anyway:

    Virtually, every people who lived in Britain added something interesting to the Arthurian legend. The tale of the Green Knight has an ancient Celtic seed - which is demonstrated in the way that the theme forms part of the Irish story of Cú Chulainn. The Saxons were the original antagonists, making Arthur the heroic figure. The Normans added the Holy Grail and chivalry. But look at the mythos today. Can you tell me it is a better story now that it is multicultural and when Guinevere is black?

    It could possibly be the case that people with low genetic distance who live near to each other, might inevitably amalgamate. This does not mean that people with high genetic distance will, or that is in anyway desirable. One cannot compare legacy Britain to Brazil and say that they are equally desirable amalgamations.

    Honestly, I find the nihilism you profess about Europe in strange contrast to your passion about the environment. It is hard for me to believe that you really don't care, one way or another. Rather, it seems to me you are invested in ideas adverse to the continued existence of Europe. Perhaps, simply anti-racism, or else something you see as being in your personal interest. Maybe, you are a xenophile, or fear you will get kicked out?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  254. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    the death of Mr. Floyd
     
    Fact (never mentioned in MSM) is that after the “protests” started, those “protesters” murdered more black people than the police. One example is a black guy murdered in St Louis when he tried to stop “protesters” intent on burglary and looting. Apparently, “Black Lives Matter” is a lie, at least they don’t matter to those repeating this slogan.

    Replies: @AP

    You missed the most ridiculous thing. It is tragic, because people were murdered, but captures the real essence of these protests:

    Two black lives matter activists were murdered. One of them, 19 year old Oluwatoyin Salau, prior to her disappearance had proclaimed at a speech in Florida: ““. Y’all need to remember who the fucking enemy is. It’s racist — white, racist, Tallahassee.”

    It turns out that she was raped and murdered by a black man. He murdered a second activist, too, a 75 year old white woman.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/oluwatoyin-salau-found-dead-florida-black-lives-matter

    Notice that the left-wing Buzzfeed does not mention the race of the murderer. Fox does.

    Thus we see how the entire BLM debacle is a major distraction from the real problem, which is black crime, whose principal victims are blacks. Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police, the very people who fight crime, thus enabling more murders and rapes of the black people whom they manipulate for their own purposes.

    This could be the plot of a very dark comedy, but because real people have been murdered it is simply and utterly disgusting.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @AP


    Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police
     
    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they've managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    The same cities that will deliberate for months and even years over repairing bridges decided, virtually overnight, that police departments are the real problem and they've gotta go.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AP, @AnonFromTN

  255. @songbird
    @RSDB

    I think the ones who were born overseas were generally pretty reluctant to go to Africa, but I'm not sure about the others.

    Replies: @RSDB

    I suppose some could have been sent to Freetown but in that case they would simply be part of the British colonial effort in Africa.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @RSDB

    I understand at Freetown, at one point, they turned away a ship of American blacks.

    It is tempting to think of South Africa with its quasi first-world infrastructure and large open spaces, and wonder why it seems there was no attempt at a large-scale, paternalistic settlement of freed slaves - something planned and administered by other people - but perhaps thinking that way introduces a bit of an anachronism.

  256. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British
     
    British is a new invention. If you're so concerned about "cultural genocide", why are you so merrily accepting of an identity that subsumed many others? What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?

    Cultural metamorphosis is a constant historical process. Trying to preserve any 'purity' is a fool's errand and at odds with human nature. All of us have had many ancestors who were "culturally genocided" when they were introduced and merged into larger metacultural groups. Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird

    Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.

    Diseases are a natural process of life too. It doesn’t mean we don’t try to prevent them.

    FFS, using your logic, even murder is a natural process of life. We know we’ll never completely eradicate it, but that doesn’t stop us trying.

  257. Does anyone here doubt that, of all posters on Unz, Thulean Fag would kneel first?

  258. @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    You missed the most ridiculous thing. It is tragic, because people were murdered, but captures the real essence of these protests:

    Two black lives matter activists were murdered. One of them, 19 year old Oluwatoyin Salau, prior to her disappearance had proclaimed at a speech in Florida: "“. Y’all need to remember who the fucking enemy is. It’s racist — white, racist, Tallahassee."

    It turns out that she was raped and murdered by a black man. He murdered a second activist, too, a 75 year old white woman.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/addybaird/oluwatoyin-salau-found-dead-florida-black-lives-matter

    Notice that the left-wing Buzzfeed does not mention the race of the murderer. Fox does.

    Thus we see how the entire BLM debacle is a major distraction from the real problem, which is black crime, whose principal victims are blacks. Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police, the very people who fight crime, thus enabling more murders and rapes of the black people whom they manipulate for their own purposes.

    This could be the plot of a very dark comedy, but because real people have been murdered it is simply and utterly disgusting.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police

    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they’ve managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    The same cities that will deliberate for months and even years over repairing bridges decided, virtually overnight, that police departments are the real problem and they’ve gotta go.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @silviosilver

    In the UK the left are always complaining that the police are underfunded and under numbered, and they blame "Tory austerity" for it. So I find it hard to imagine the narrative is suddenly going to be turned on his head but who knows this is crazy times.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @AP
    @silviosilver


    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they’ve managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.
     
    A study by Harvard economists demonstrated that as a result of BLM activism there is an excessive death toll of about 500 people by homicide every year (mostly blacks):

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2wKTrz1nErE99QWEc2mJBB1ysaKTrL0ukiS6mThiGWGKPLbzSi6yRTE_g

    That number is based on much lower-scale protests in previous years; the death toll will be higher as a consequence of this year's hysteria.

    Meanwhile an epidemiologist estimated that the protests would result in 3000 infections per day, translating into 10-100 deaths daily:

    https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269395226541518849

    So over the years, we can expect over 10,000 deaths, mostly of black people, as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement. This dwarfs the recorded number of black people murdered by lynching (around 3,400 total according to wikipedia).

    If the Coen bothers made a blood-soaked dark comedy about a political movement instead of about criminals, it would be the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AnonFromTN
    @silviosilver

    To be objective, only a few hopelessly cucked cities decided to dismantle their police departments. Even those morons are likely to simply rename them, unless they plan to get the heck out to places that do have the police.

  259. It strikes me how irrelevant Britain is becoming on the world stage, despite Brexit ambitions to restore Britain’s global relevance and reach. Even Poland seems more relevant now.

    There are literally people being interviewed on TV in America saying they can’t comment on Churchill because they’ve “never met the guy”. This is how well understood Britain is, embarrassing really.

  260. @silviosilver
    @AP


    Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police
     
    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they've managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    The same cities that will deliberate for months and even years over repairing bridges decided, virtually overnight, that police departments are the real problem and they've gotta go.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AP, @AnonFromTN

    In the UK the left are always complaining that the police are underfunded and under numbered, and they blame “Tory austerity” for it. So I find it hard to imagine the narrative is suddenly going to be turned on his head but who knows this is crazy times.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Europe Europa


    So I find it hard to imagine the narrative is suddenly going to be turned on his head but who knows this is crazy times.
     
    The last thing I would expect from these shitbirds is rhetorical consistency. They're perfectly capable of speaking out of both sides of their mouths, and to pretend that they never said something they just said two minutes ago. (Aided greatly in this endeavor by an accommodating media complex.)

    That said, "defund the police" does seem to be a mostly (exclusively?) American phenomenon. Australo-Saxons are about as cucked as whites anywhere (perhaps somewhat less so), but I've found the police response to incipient BLMism here to be fairly reassuring (so far). Never say never and all that, but I don't think defunding the police is on the agenda here. (Perhaps helped by the fact that police forces are organized at the state, not city, level.)
  261. AP says:
    @silviosilver
    @AP


    Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police
     
    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they've managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    The same cities that will deliberate for months and even years over repairing bridges decided, virtually overnight, that police departments are the real problem and they've gotta go.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AP, @AnonFromTN

    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they’ve managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    A study by Harvard economists demonstrated that as a result of BLM activism there is an excessive death toll of about 500 people by homicide every year (mostly blacks):

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2wKTrz1nErE99QWEc2mJBB1ysaKTrL0ukiS6mThiGWGKPLbzSi6yRTE_g

    That number is based on much lower-scale protests in previous years; the death toll will be higher as a consequence of this year’s hysteria.

    Meanwhile an epidemiologist estimated that the protests would result in 3000 infections per day, translating into 10-100 deaths daily:

    So over the years, we can expect over 10,000 deaths, mostly of black people, as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement. This dwarfs the recorded number of black people murdered by lynching (around 3,400 total according to wikipedia).

    If the Coen bothers made a blood-soaked dark comedy about a political movement instead of about criminals, it would be the Black Lives Matter movement.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I'd also enjoy seeing them do one about the neurotic black professor who moves into a woke Jewish neighborhood, like St. Louis Park, a first ring suburb of Minneapolis. They're a clannish sort. :-)

  262. @AP
    @silviosilver


    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they’ve managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.
     
    A study by Harvard economists demonstrated that as a result of BLM activism there is an excessive death toll of about 500 people by homicide every year (mostly blacks):

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w27324.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2wKTrz1nErE99QWEc2mJBB1ysaKTrL0ukiS6mThiGWGKPLbzSi6yRTE_g

    That number is based on much lower-scale protests in previous years; the death toll will be higher as a consequence of this year's hysteria.

    Meanwhile an epidemiologist estimated that the protests would result in 3000 infections per day, translating into 10-100 deaths daily:

    https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269395226541518849

    So over the years, we can expect over 10,000 deaths, mostly of black people, as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement. This dwarfs the recorded number of black people murdered by lynching (around 3,400 total according to wikipedia).

    If the Coen bothers made a blood-soaked dark comedy about a political movement instead of about criminals, it would be the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’d also enjoy seeing them do one about the neurotic black professor who moves into a woke Jewish neighborhood, like St. Louis Park, a first ring suburb of Minneapolis. They’re a clannish sort. 🙂

  263. @RSDB
    @songbird

    I suppose some could have been sent to Freetown but in that case they would simply be part of the British colonial effort in Africa.

    Replies: @songbird

    I understand at Freetown, at one point, they turned away a ship of American blacks.

    It is tempting to think of South Africa with its quasi first-world infrastructure and large open spaces, and wonder why it seems there was no attempt at a large-scale, paternalistic settlement of freed slaves – something planned and administered by other people – but perhaps thinking that way introduces a bit of an anachronism.

  264. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird


    Perhaps, you are not familiar with the concept of bioculture? The British evolved to live among British
     
    British is a new invention. If you're so concerned about "cultural genocide", why are you so merrily accepting of an identity that subsumed many others? What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?

    Cultural metamorphosis is a constant historical process. Trying to preserve any 'purity' is a fool's errand and at odds with human nature. All of us have had many ancestors who were "culturally genocided" when they were introduced and merged into larger metacultural groups. Of course, that is a natural process of life and worrying about that is like worrying about the wind.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird

    What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?

    Anytime you have to break out a time machine to construct an empathic argument, then that is probably a bridge too far, but I will try to engage with what your saying anyway:

    Virtually, every people who lived in Britain added something interesting to the Arthurian legend. The tale of the Green Knight has an ancient Celtic seed – which is demonstrated in the way that the theme forms part of the Irish story of Cú Chulainn. The Saxons were the original antagonists, making Arthur the heroic figure. The Normans added the Holy Grail and chivalry. But look at the mythos today. Can you tell me it is a better story now that it is multicultural and when Guinevere is black?

    It could possibly be the case that people with low genetic distance who live near to each other, might inevitably amalgamate. This does not mean that people with high genetic distance will, or that is in anyway desirable. One cannot compare legacy Britain to Brazil and say that they are equally desirable amalgamations.

    Honestly, I find the nihilism you profess about Europe in strange contrast to your passion about the environment. It is hard for me to believe that you really don’t care, one way or another. Rather, it seems to me you are invested in ideas adverse to the continued existence of Europe. Perhaps, simply anti-racism, or else something you see as being in your personal interest. Maybe, you are a xenophile, or fear you will get kicked out?

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @songbird

    At every point in the history of the UK, there have been songbirds warning about "cultural genocide". The same pattern applies in every country, including Sweden. An amalgamation of different tribes gradually formed a new ethnos. Our nationality is an invention, too.

    The concept of whiteness is another, as is the category 'European'. What we choose to identify with is our decision to make. I don't have any strong feelings on people becoming heavily invested in new identities, given that they are formed continuously throughout history. I just wish to remind them of the recency and the fluidity of the categories they so desperately latch onto.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  265. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend


    What about the Picts? Do their lives not matter to you?
     
    Anytime you have to break out a time machine to construct an empathic argument, then that is probably a bridge too far, but I will try to engage with what your saying anyway:

    Virtually, every people who lived in Britain added something interesting to the Arthurian legend. The tale of the Green Knight has an ancient Celtic seed - which is demonstrated in the way that the theme forms part of the Irish story of Cú Chulainn. The Saxons were the original antagonists, making Arthur the heroic figure. The Normans added the Holy Grail and chivalry. But look at the mythos today. Can you tell me it is a better story now that it is multicultural and when Guinevere is black?

    It could possibly be the case that people with low genetic distance who live near to each other, might inevitably amalgamate. This does not mean that people with high genetic distance will, or that is in anyway desirable. One cannot compare legacy Britain to Brazil and say that they are equally desirable amalgamations.

    Honestly, I find the nihilism you profess about Europe in strange contrast to your passion about the environment. It is hard for me to believe that you really don't care, one way or another. Rather, it seems to me you are invested in ideas adverse to the continued existence of Europe. Perhaps, simply anti-racism, or else something you see as being in your personal interest. Maybe, you are a xenophile, or fear you will get kicked out?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    At every point in the history of the UK, there have been songbirds warning about “cultural genocide”. The same pattern applies in every country, including Sweden. An amalgamation of different tribes gradually formed a new ethnos. Our nationality is an invention, too.

    The concept of whiteness is another, as is the category ‘European’. What we choose to identify with is our decision to make. I don’t have any strong feelings on people becoming heavily invested in new identities, given that they are formed continuously throughout history. I just wish to remind them of the recency and the fluidity of the categories they so desperately latch onto.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Sure, "genocide" is a ridiculous exaggerated rhetoric. However, I think Songbird's views, are quite normal considering the fact he is American, and his way of seeing the world is probably quite a common battlescar of living in such a disharmoniously multiracial country.

    On both sides of a political spectrum, Americans are often obsessed about conflict between races - almost like a religion -, and this is one of the strongest warning about potential problems of having such a multicultural and multiracial society.

    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: "You don't want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races - just look at how Americans are".

    Considering the ethnically homogeneous situation of non-multinational countries like Sweden - the long and famous interethnic disharmony in America should have been quite a terrible warning against immigration. (Hopefully Japan has actually seen a warning here).

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  266. • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Thulean Friend

    Species die out all the time. It's just a natural life process. No point getting worked up over it.

  267. @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN


    Siberia is lucky, then. RIP Europe, Russians are going to miss it.
     
    You don't sound like you're going to much miss it.

    There is an unseemly glee in your tone whenever you discuss the west's demographic problems.

    I will not return the favor because "negrify thy neighbor" policies only ensure we'll all lose.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    Europe used to be good for vacations. Much better than Disneyland, because it is real. But after Paris started looking like Dakar, I’d rather spend my vacations elsewhere. I am going to miss Europe, but the world is big.

    Europe and the US cannot complain: they committed suicide. Russia, Asia, and Latin America are still alive. Lots of vacation destinations there.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN

    Aren't you a self-described anti-racist? One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere in the world has the right to prevent non-white immigration, not for any reason. Given that, "suicide" was always an inevitability - only the timing of the final demise was allowed to be tampered with (the immigration rate), and even that only within strictly delimited bounds.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

  268. @silviosilver
    @AP


    Exploitative left-wing activists (largely whites) and their donors (mostly whites) deflect rage onto the police
     
    I have to admit, it is darkly impressive the way that, without any real debate, they've managed to gaslight cities into abolishing their fucking police forces.

    The same cities that will deliberate for months and even years over repairing bridges decided, virtually overnight, that police departments are the real problem and they've gotta go.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @AP, @AnonFromTN

    To be objective, only a few hopelessly cucked cities decided to dismantle their police departments. Even those morons are likely to simply rename them, unless they plan to get the heck out to places that do have the police.

  269. @Europe Europa
    @silviosilver

    In the UK the left are always complaining that the police are underfunded and under numbered, and they blame "Tory austerity" for it. So I find it hard to imagine the narrative is suddenly going to be turned on his head but who knows this is crazy times.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    So I find it hard to imagine the narrative is suddenly going to be turned on his head but who knows this is crazy times.

    The last thing I would expect from these shitbirds is rhetorical consistency. They’re perfectly capable of speaking out of both sides of their mouths, and to pretend that they never said something they just said two minutes ago. (Aided greatly in this endeavor by an accommodating media complex.)

    That said, “defund the police” does seem to be a mostly (exclusively?) American phenomenon. Australo-Saxons are about as cucked as whites anywhere (perhaps somewhat less so), but I’ve found the police response to incipient BLMism here to be fairly reassuring (so far). Never say never and all that, but I don’t think defunding the police is on the agenda here. (Perhaps helped by the fact that police forces are organized at the state, not city, level.)

  270. @Thulean Friend
    https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1272965887876710407

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Species die out all the time. It’s just a natural life process. No point getting worked up over it.

  271. @AnonFromTN
    @silviosilver

    Europe used to be good for vacations. Much better than Disneyland, because it is real. But after Paris started looking like Dakar, I’d rather spend my vacations elsewhere. I am going to miss Europe, but the world is big.

    Europe and the US cannot complain: they committed suicide. Russia, Asia, and Latin America are still alive. Lots of vacation destinations there.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Aren’t you a self-described anti-racist? One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere in the world has the right to prevent non-white immigration, not for any reason. Given that, “suicide” was always an inevitability – only the timing of the final demise was allowed to be tampered with (the immigration rate), and even that only within strictly delimited bounds.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere

     

    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person's soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.

    The world is a noisy place, though, and there are far too many people, for you to waste time to learn about all their personalities. It is quite practical shortcut to categorize people by their nationalities, and to judge people by the average qualities of their group. As you can judge someone by their clothes and it will often be very accurate. But that is just because it's a quicker than actually finding whatever is interesting about the person.

    Similarly, it's at least in the last few centuries, it has been easier from a organizational level, to group ourselves together by nationality, rather than mixing up with strangers into multicultural countries like America. We likely have some of these beliefs instinctually, and presumably it had aided our ancestors.

    Anti-racist person can accept this superficiality is just a shortcut. Whereas racist people seem to be lost in their superficial obsession about nationalities. It's not complicated and everyone has knows it is correct, in some deeper or moral sense.

    Notice that a lot of so-called "anti-racism" is just an inverse kind of racism. This is where most American politics seems to be.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @AnonFromTN
    @silviosilver

    You are confusing me with someone. The people who self-describe as anti-racists are racists in the worst possible manner. I am not a racist, I am color-blind, I evaluate each person on his/her own merits. I’ve seen smart and dumb, lazy and hard-working, honest and dishonest people of every color. So, I know that in individual cases color predicts nothing whatsoever.

    I hold that every country should preserve its identity. That’s why I am appalled by Paris becoming Dakar or London becoming Islamabad. I hold that all those rapefugees should go back to whateverthefuckistan they came from. If they live in European countries (should be in relatively small numbers), they should live like locals. If they want their specific way of life, they are welcome to return to their shitholes.

  272. @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN

    Aren't you a self-described anti-racist? One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere in the world has the right to prevent non-white immigration, not for any reason. Given that, "suicide" was always an inevitability - only the timing of the final demise was allowed to be tampered with (the immigration rate), and even that only within strictly delimited bounds.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

    One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere

    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person’s soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.

    The world is a noisy place, though, and there are far too many people, for you to waste time to learn about all their personalities. It is quite practical shortcut to categorize people by their nationalities, and to judge people by the average qualities of their group. As you can judge someone by their clothes and it will often be very accurate. But that is just because it’s a quicker than actually finding whatever is interesting about the person.

    Similarly, it’s at least in the last few centuries, it has been easier from a organizational level, to group ourselves together by nationality, rather than mixing up with strangers into multicultural countries like America. We likely have some of these beliefs instinctually, and presumably it had aided our ancestors.

    Anti-racist person can accept this superficiality is just a shortcut. Whereas racist people seem to be lost in their superficial obsession about nationalities. It’s not complicated and everyone has knows it is correct, in some deeper or moral sense.

    Notice that a lot of so-called “anti-racism” is just an inverse kind of racism. This is where most American politics seems to be.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person’s soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.
     
    Is the word "race" really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym "nationality" for it? Because we really are talking about race rather than nationality, you know. (I challenge you or anyone here to produce evidence that I've ever considered someone's nationality an important or disqualifying trait.)

    For me, racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It's only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship with them. I don't believe I'm missing out on anything special. Life is short; why waste it on people with whom relationships won't be as rewarding? If preferring your own kind was some high crime, Jews would be throw right back into the concentration camps.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  273. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird

    At every point in the history of the UK, there have been songbirds warning about "cultural genocide". The same pattern applies in every country, including Sweden. An amalgamation of different tribes gradually formed a new ethnos. Our nationality is an invention, too.

    The concept of whiteness is another, as is the category 'European'. What we choose to identify with is our decision to make. I don't have any strong feelings on people becoming heavily invested in new identities, given that they are formed continuously throughout history. I just wish to remind them of the recency and the fluidity of the categories they so desperately latch onto.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Sure, “genocide” is a ridiculous exaggerated rhetoric. However, I think Songbird’s views, are quite normal considering the fact he is American, and his way of seeing the world is probably quite a common battlescar of living in such a disharmoniously multiracial country.

    On both sides of a political spectrum, Americans are often obsessed about conflict between races – almost like a religion -, and this is one of the strongest warning about potential problems of having such a multicultural and multiracial society.

    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: “You don’t want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races – just look at how Americans are”.

    Considering the ethnically homogeneous situation of non-multinational countries like Sweden – the long and famous interethnic disharmony in America should have been quite a terrible warning against immigration. (Hopefully Japan has actually seen a warning here).

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: “You don’t want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races – just look at how Americans are”.
     
    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner. Murder rates in the US have fallen to levels where they last were in the early 1950s. The US economy has slowed down, but so has everyone else. It is still the richest and most innovative large country - and will remain so for the overseeing future.

    It has its share of problems, but so does everyone else. I know this blog has many Russian speakers and it might pain them to admit it, but the vast majority of people would still choose the US over Russia if forced to choose. This blog is an outlier. People here are panicked by pride parades.

    I am troubled by the 'woke guard' in the US and its effects on academic freedom and free speech. I am a free speech absolutist. But the reality is that every system has its taboos. Many of Europe's intellectuals had to flee their residence because of religious or political persecution. To be truly free, one should work in a small and obscure place which is easy to overlook and has a neutral diplomatic position. That has not changed throughout the centuries.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Dmitry

  274. @silviosilver
    @AnonFromTN

    Aren't you a self-described anti-racist? One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere in the world has the right to prevent non-white immigration, not for any reason. Given that, "suicide" was always an inevitability - only the timing of the final demise was allowed to be tampered with (the immigration rate), and even that only within strictly delimited bounds.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AnonFromTN

    You are confusing me with someone. The people who self-describe as anti-racists are racists in the worst possible manner. I am not a racist, I am color-blind, I evaluate each person on his/her own merits. I’ve seen smart and dumb, lazy and hard-working, honest and dishonest people of every color. So, I know that in individual cases color predicts nothing whatsoever.

    I hold that every country should preserve its identity. That’s why I am appalled by Paris becoming Dakar or London becoming Islamabad. I hold that all those rapefugees should go back to whateverthefuckistan they came from. If they live in European countries (should be in relatively small numbers), they should live like locals. If they want their specific way of life, they are welcome to return to their shitholes.

    • Agree: Jazman
  275. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Sure, "genocide" is a ridiculous exaggerated rhetoric. However, I think Songbird's views, are quite normal considering the fact he is American, and his way of seeing the world is probably quite a common battlescar of living in such a disharmoniously multiracial country.

    On both sides of a political spectrum, Americans are often obsessed about conflict between races - almost like a religion -, and this is one of the strongest warning about potential problems of having such a multicultural and multiracial society.

    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: "You don't want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races - just look at how Americans are".

    Considering the ethnically homogeneous situation of non-multinational countries like Sweden - the long and famous interethnic disharmony in America should have been quite a terrible warning against immigration. (Hopefully Japan has actually seen a warning here).

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: “You don’t want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races – just look at how Americans are”.

    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner. Murder rates in the US have fallen to levels where they last were in the early 1950s. The US economy has slowed down, but so has everyone else. It is still the richest and most innovative large country – and will remain so for the overseeing future.

    It has its share of problems, but so does everyone else. I know this blog has many Russian speakers and it might pain them to admit it, but the vast majority of people would still choose the US over Russia if forced to choose. This blog is an outlier. People here are panicked by pride parades.

    I am troubled by the ‘woke guard’ in the US and its effects on academic freedom and free speech. I am a free speech absolutist. But the reality is that every system has its taboos. Many of Europe’s intellectuals had to flee their residence because of religious or political persecution. To be truly free, one should work in a small and obscure place which is easy to overlook and has a neutral diplomatic position. That has not changed throughout the centuries.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Thulean Friend


    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner.
     
    Alarmists have made those claims, yes. While I think the quality of daily life for whites has degraded as a result, "anarchy" isn't really the word for it. (If we ignore recent events, anyway.) Generally, when the race changes, the frequency and quality of social interactions declines. Strangers go from being potential friends until they prove otherwise, to potential enemies until they prove otherwise. Putnam's study found that the higher the racial diversity, the lower the trust - both in other races and in one's own. A horror story? Not necessarily. But a success story? Only if one ignores the costs.
    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    vast majority of people would still choose the US
     
    Sure, but that is because of crazily high salaries in America, especially for specialist professionals. These high salaries, can be in combination with very civilized job conditions. For a working person, the salaries and job conditions are the main determinant for your choice of emigration.

    In terms of an internal ethnic situation of a country - most people will prefer something like the situation in Japan or Poland, where there are not enough diversity of groups to cause any serious internal conflicts. It's just less stressful to avoid such an additional cause of internal conflict.

    (Although it depends on what you dislike - personally I feel the earthquakes in Japan are far more scary, than flying bullets in America).

  276. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    One of the tenets of anti-racism is that no white county anywhere

     

    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person's soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.

    The world is a noisy place, though, and there are far too many people, for you to waste time to learn about all their personalities. It is quite practical shortcut to categorize people by their nationalities, and to judge people by the average qualities of their group. As you can judge someone by their clothes and it will often be very accurate. But that is just because it's a quicker than actually finding whatever is interesting about the person.

    Similarly, it's at least in the last few centuries, it has been easier from a organizational level, to group ourselves together by nationality, rather than mixing up with strangers into multicultural countries like America. We likely have some of these beliefs instinctually, and presumably it had aided our ancestors.

    Anti-racist person can accept this superficiality is just a shortcut. Whereas racist people seem to be lost in their superficial obsession about nationalities. It's not complicated and everyone has knows it is correct, in some deeper or moral sense.

    Notice that a lot of so-called "anti-racism" is just an inverse kind of racism. This is where most American politics seems to be.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person’s soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.

    Is the word “race” really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym “nationality” for it? Because we really are talking about race rather than nationality, you know. (I challenge you or anyone here to produce evidence that I’ve ever considered someone’s nationality an important or disqualifying trait.)

    For me, racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It’s only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship with them. I don’t believe I’m missing out on anything special. Life is short; why waste it on people with whom relationships won’t be as rewarding? If preferring your own kind was some high crime, Jews would be throw right back into the concentration camps.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    If preferring your own kind was some high crime, Jews would be throw right back into the concentration camps.
     
    Jewish nationalism is the one of the more complicated, kinds of nationalism.

    The basis of the Jewish nationalism is like belonging to a club. It's not based on normal racial factors, as there are many different races of Jews.

    Israel is one of the most multiracial countries, while at the same time one of the the most nationalist and tribal countries among the developed world.

    The difference between Arabs and Jews is based on religious origin. It is not exactly a racial conflict - brown Arab Jews identify with European Jews, against Muslim Arabs.

    So Jewish schools (and society in general) in Israel often look like - mix of every kind of brown, white and black people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx9HNfJhtI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsq1xLvIk-g

  277. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    no indication whatsoever that he is concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup

     

    Sure, I am extremely anti-racist and don't judge people by nationality. If I wasn't, it would be strange to be a regular writer on this multiracial website - which is owned and named after a brown American Jew whose face looks suitable for the streets of Istanbul or Cairo, or to be following a Middle Eastern looking blogger of Caucasian aristocratic roots.

    Neither I don't remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like "I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup." Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    On the other hand, my political views are more "right wing" than most people I talk to, across different countries, and in both personal and professional life. I say one of main mistakes by Putin - his open immigration borders policy, along with his external policy. Similarly, main thing I oppose about politics in Western Europe (open borders immigration, as opposed to selective immigration). Main mistake of Merkel - open borders immigration. Etc. Those views to oppose open borders immigration are not to say, that I support racism - I am a very anti-racist person in reality. More interesting European connection would be to a Chinese person who can play a Mozart sonata, than some Austrian who does not know their culture - i.e. the important thing is the civilization level.


    you aware of what ethnicity (((Dmitry))) is?

     

    My racial makeup is Russian with Jewish roots. I would like to use these Yiddish brackets you gave to my name. But I sadly can't claim to be a real Jew, as Jewish roots are that my grandfather has Jewish roots (whereas to be a Jew in the real sense, has to be matrilineal). By family record I am 87,5% Russian and 12,5% Jewish. However, when a close relative had a DNA test, the results were a quite different proportions to that, and also a large proportion of our genetics are from other (non-Russian) nationalities our family didn't know they were descended from.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hartnell, @silviosilver

    Neither I don’t remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like “I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup.” Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.

    Well, as someone who spent my youth loathing and fearing nazis and being extremely sensitive about race-talk, I can understand how my language could sound unpleasant. I had simply assumed that by the time somebody finds this site, he is generally inured to “racism.”

    Consider what it means to be completely unconcerned about future racial make-ups. It would mean being indifferent to, say, Moscow’s population in 2120 being 70% Nigerian and 30% Indian. Racial makeup doesn’t matter, right? So it’s all good. On the other hand, if there are at least some future racial makeups that leave you feeling uneasy, then that suggests you are have at least some concern about…about what? About the future racial makeup of the country. It says nothing about the kinds of policies you might favor in order to influence the future makeup; it just demonstrates that the future racial makeup is a concern of yours.

    And mind you, being concerned about the future racial makeup doesn’t necessarily mean you want the country to be “whiter” or “pure” or something like that. A sizable majority of Jews are concerned about the future racial makeup of Europe and America – they want it be substantially less white, even completely non-white.

    As for my assumption that you are Jewish, I thought I recalled you describing yourself that way. And I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel, which I guess reinforced my assumption. My mistake then.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    “race” really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym “nationality”

     

    Nationality includes race (as nationality is usually internally consistent for race) but it has wider meaning. In real world, conflict and especially massacres, are usually determined by nationalities.

    For example, today in 21st century Latvia and Estonia, they to some extent legally persecute Russians. However, Russians and Latvians share mostly the same race. (On the other hand, they give full legal rights to any EU nationalities e.g. Spanish or Italian people can go to live in Latvia with full rights, even though Latins are racially much more distant to Baltic people than Russians who are denied rights).

    German Nazis would kill the blonde proportion of Jews, not differently to the brown Jews - in reality they killed on the basis of nationality rather than race (despite rhetoric).

    Japanese pogroms of Koreans, will not be based on Koreans having different e.g. hair colour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant%C5%8D_Massacre

    Ukrainians massacre Poles (genetically there is not a difference between Poles and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia


    racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It’s only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship
     
    That's fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal (for example, I'll probably be more interested to talk to a Japanese person, than an American - as I'm interested in Japanese culture more than American culture).

    -

    Racial/national conflict usually begins when there are larger groups of the same nationality close together.

    So, in the USSR, the Far East was famous for intermarriage, and lack of racial conflict between different small disparate groups - Russians, Koreans, Jews, Germans, Balts.

    Whereas in Ukraine - where these nationalities formed larger blocs, there was considered always to be much more racism between the nationalities.

    -

    By the way, on this topic of how weird other races look. I had a strange experience when I returned from vacation in Japan. After couple weeks in Japan, my brain unconsciously had adjusted to seeing thousands of small and homogeneous, cleanly dressed oriental people as normal.

    My first day I was home, I was in the supermarket thinking that white people look really weird, unhomogenous and unproportioned. After a couple days - I forgot this experience.


    you are Jewish,
     
    I boast about having Jewish roots. But Jewish roots people, and "real Jews" are different groups, as Jews themselves have much stricter criteria.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line - you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.


    I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel,

     

    I can write about Israel because I lived there for months after university. Although nowadays, probably my expertise is becoming a bit rusty now. My total time (including all vacations) in Israel is 4 months, but my last trip there was 2 years ago.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  278. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: “You don’t want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races – just look at how Americans are”.
     
    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner. Murder rates in the US have fallen to levels where they last were in the early 1950s. The US economy has slowed down, but so has everyone else. It is still the richest and most innovative large country - and will remain so for the overseeing future.

    It has its share of problems, but so does everyone else. I know this blog has many Russian speakers and it might pain them to admit it, but the vast majority of people would still choose the US over Russia if forced to choose. This blog is an outlier. People here are panicked by pride parades.

    I am troubled by the 'woke guard' in the US and its effects on academic freedom and free speech. I am a free speech absolutist. But the reality is that every system has its taboos. Many of Europe's intellectuals had to flee their residence because of religious or political persecution. To be truly free, one should work in a small and obscure place which is easy to overlook and has a neutral diplomatic position. That has not changed throughout the centuries.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Dmitry

    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner.

    Alarmists have made those claims, yes. While I think the quality of daily life for whites has degraded as a result, “anarchy” isn’t really the word for it. (If we ignore recent events, anyway.) Generally, when the race changes, the frequency and quality of social interactions declines. Strangers go from being potential friends until they prove otherwise, to potential enemies until they prove otherwise. Putnam’s study found that the higher the racial diversity, the lower the trust – both in other races and in one’s own. A horror story? Not necessarily. But a success story? Only if one ignores the costs.

  279. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    Neither I don’t remember meeting anyone in real life (as opposed to internet sites) who could say something like “I am concerned about the future of Russia’s racial makeup.” Writing such kind of sentences even in quotes makes me feel a bit unpleasantly Hitlerian.
     
    Well, as someone who spent my youth loathing and fearing nazis and being extremely sensitive about race-talk, I can understand how my language could sound unpleasant. I had simply assumed that by the time somebody finds this site, he is generally inured to "racism."

    Consider what it means to be completely unconcerned about future racial make-ups. It would mean being indifferent to, say, Moscow's population in 2120 being 70% Nigerian and 30% Indian. Racial makeup doesn't matter, right? So it's all good. On the other hand, if there are at least some future racial makeups that leave you feeling uneasy, then that suggests you are have at least some concern about...about what? About the future racial makeup of the country. It says nothing about the kinds of policies you might favor in order to influence the future makeup; it just demonstrates that the future racial makeup is a concern of yours.

    And mind you, being concerned about the future racial makeup doesn't necessarily mean you want the country to be "whiter" or "pure" or something like that. A sizable majority of Jews are concerned about the future racial makeup of Europe and America - they want it be substantially less white, even completely non-white.

    As for my assumption that you are Jewish, I thought I recalled you describing yourself that way. And I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel, which I guess reinforced my assumption. My mistake then.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    “race” really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym “nationality”

    Nationality includes race (as nationality is usually internally consistent for race) but it has wider meaning. In real world, conflict and especially massacres, are usually determined by nationalities.

    For example, today in 21st century Latvia and Estonia, they to some extent legally persecute Russians. However, Russians and Latvians share mostly the same race. (On the other hand, they give full legal rights to any EU nationalities e.g. Spanish or Italian people can go to live in Latvia with full rights, even though Latins are racially much more distant to Baltic people than Russians who are denied rights).

    German Nazis would kill the blonde proportion of Jews, not differently to the brown Jews – in reality they killed on the basis of nationality rather than race (despite rhetoric).

    Japanese pogroms of Koreans, will not be based on Koreans having different e.g. hair colour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant%C5%8D_Massacre

    Ukrainians massacre Poles (genetically there is not a difference between Poles and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It’s only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship

    That’s fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal (for example, I’ll probably be more interested to talk to a Japanese person, than an American – as I’m interested in Japanese culture more than American culture).

    Racial/national conflict usually begins when there are larger groups of the same nationality close together.

    So, in the USSR, the Far East was famous for intermarriage, and lack of racial conflict between different small disparate groups – Russians, Koreans, Jews, Germans, Balts.

    Whereas in Ukraine – where these nationalities formed larger blocs, there was considered always to be much more racism between the nationalities.

    By the way, on this topic of how weird other races look. I had a strange experience when I returned from vacation in Japan. After couple weeks in Japan, my brain unconsciously had adjusted to seeing thousands of small and homogeneous, cleanly dressed oriental people as normal.

    My first day I was home, I was in the supermarket thinking that white people look really weird, unhomogenous and unproportioned. After a couple days – I forgot this experience.

    you are Jewish,

    I boast about having Jewish roots. But Jewish roots people, and “real Jews” are different groups, as Jews themselves have much stricter criteria.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line – you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.

    I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel,

    I can write about Israel because I lived there for months after university. Although nowadays, probably my expertise is becoming a bit rusty now. My total time (including all vacations) in Israel is 4 months, but my last trip there was 2 years ago.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry, if I say I want to talk about race because that is what interests me, it doesn't mean that I'm blind to nationality or that I'm unaware that most conflicts in history have been between people of the same race. That is so obvious that it hardly warrants mentioning. My interest lies in aspects of race that are not commonly talked about (in fact, the only aspect of race that is commonly talked about is "racism," and how it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong -- booooring).


    That’s fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal
     
    Yes, I am painfully aware that it is not universal. But neither is it universal to believe that the "real" value of a person has nothing whatsoever to do with his race. If that is your perspective, then fine, you are entitled to it. It is also the perspective that is shared by the vast bulk of the intelligentsia, the entirety of the media-entertainment complex, clerics of every religious brand (er, except one), and a sizable proportion of the masses. But not the entirety. I believe that those of us who reject your perspective have a right -- indeed, an urgent need -- to assert our values, too.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line – you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.
     
    I'm curious: what was your experience in Israel, as it relates to this issue? Did you try to pass yourself off as Jewish, and did Israelis seem to care? My understanding is that there is a sizable population of "non-halakhic" Jews (mostly ex-Soviet) who are campaigning to be recognized as Jews, but that this determination is in the hands of the religious authorities, who are holding firm.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  280. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry


    Tenet of anti-racism, is just that you understand the person’s soul is the fundamental thing, not their nationality.
     
    Is the word "race" really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym "nationality" for it? Because we really are talking about race rather than nationality, you know. (I challenge you or anyone here to produce evidence that I've ever considered someone's nationality an important or disqualifying trait.)

    For me, racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It's only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship with them. I don't believe I'm missing out on anything special. Life is short; why waste it on people with whom relationships won't be as rewarding? If preferring your own kind was some high crime, Jews would be throw right back into the concentration camps.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    If preferring your own kind was some high crime, Jews would be throw right back into the concentration camps.

    Jewish nationalism is the one of the more complicated, kinds of nationalism.

    The basis of the Jewish nationalism is like belonging to a club. It’s not based on normal racial factors, as there are many different races of Jews.

    Israel is one of the most multiracial countries, while at the same time one of the the most nationalist and tribal countries among the developed world.

    The difference between Arabs and Jews is based on religious origin. It is not exactly a racial conflict – brown Arab Jews identify with European Jews, against Muslim Arabs.

    So Jewish schools (and society in general) in Israel often look like – mix of every kind of brown, white and black people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsq1xLvIk-g

  281. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    Here was a good enough argument to stop unfiltered immigration to your country: “You don’t want to live in a country that makes you become obsessed with races – just look at how Americans are”.
     
    We were told the US would slide into third world anarchy as it got browner. Murder rates in the US have fallen to levels where they last were in the early 1950s. The US economy has slowed down, but so has everyone else. It is still the richest and most innovative large country - and will remain so for the overseeing future.

    It has its share of problems, but so does everyone else. I know this blog has many Russian speakers and it might pain them to admit it, but the vast majority of people would still choose the US over Russia if forced to choose. This blog is an outlier. People here are panicked by pride parades.

    I am troubled by the 'woke guard' in the US and its effects on academic freedom and free speech. I am a free speech absolutist. But the reality is that every system has its taboos. Many of Europe's intellectuals had to flee their residence because of religious or political persecution. To be truly free, one should work in a small and obscure place which is easy to overlook and has a neutral diplomatic position. That has not changed throughout the centuries.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Dmitry

    vast majority of people would still choose the US

    Sure, but that is because of crazily high salaries in America, especially for specialist professionals. These high salaries, can be in combination with very civilized job conditions. For a working person, the salaries and job conditions are the main determinant for your choice of emigration.

    In terms of an internal ethnic situation of a country – most people will prefer something like the situation in Japan or Poland, where there are not enough diversity of groups to cause any serious internal conflicts. It’s just less stressful to avoid such an additional cause of internal conflict.

    (Although it depends on what you dislike – personally I feel the earthquakes in Japan are far more scary, than flying bullets in America).

  282. @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    “race” really so radioactive to you that you have to substitute the vastly inferior and imperfect synonym “nationality”

     

    Nationality includes race (as nationality is usually internally consistent for race) but it has wider meaning. In real world, conflict and especially massacres, are usually determined by nationalities.

    For example, today in 21st century Latvia and Estonia, they to some extent legally persecute Russians. However, Russians and Latvians share mostly the same race. (On the other hand, they give full legal rights to any EU nationalities e.g. Spanish or Italian people can go to live in Latvia with full rights, even though Latins are racially much more distant to Baltic people than Russians who are denied rights).

    German Nazis would kill the blonde proportion of Jews, not differently to the brown Jews - in reality they killed on the basis of nationality rather than race (despite rhetoric).

    Japanese pogroms of Koreans, will not be based on Koreans having different e.g. hair colour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant%C5%8D_Massacre

    Ukrainians massacre Poles (genetically there is not a difference between Poles and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia


    racial likeness is a prerequisite to getting close to a person. It’s only when I feel someone is racially close enough that I take any interest in individual qualities. I have met some very nice (at first glance, anyway) blacks and asians, say, but I have no interest in developing a closer relationship
     
    That's fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal (for example, I'll probably be more interested to talk to a Japanese person, than an American - as I'm interested in Japanese culture more than American culture).

    -

    Racial/national conflict usually begins when there are larger groups of the same nationality close together.

    So, in the USSR, the Far East was famous for intermarriage, and lack of racial conflict between different small disparate groups - Russians, Koreans, Jews, Germans, Balts.

    Whereas in Ukraine - where these nationalities formed larger blocs, there was considered always to be much more racism between the nationalities.

    -

    By the way, on this topic of how weird other races look. I had a strange experience when I returned from vacation in Japan. After couple weeks in Japan, my brain unconsciously had adjusted to seeing thousands of small and homogeneous, cleanly dressed oriental people as normal.

    My first day I was home, I was in the supermarket thinking that white people look really weird, unhomogenous and unproportioned. After a couple days - I forgot this experience.


    you are Jewish,
     
    I boast about having Jewish roots. But Jewish roots people, and "real Jews" are different groups, as Jews themselves have much stricter criteria.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line - you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.


    I remember you sounded knowledgeable when I asked you a few questions about Israel,

     

    I can write about Israel because I lived there for months after university. Although nowadays, probably my expertise is becoming a bit rusty now. My total time (including all vacations) in Israel is 4 months, but my last trip there was 2 years ago.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Dmitry, if I say I want to talk about race because that is what interests me, it doesn’t mean that I’m blind to nationality or that I’m unaware that most conflicts in history have been between people of the same race. That is so obvious that it hardly warrants mentioning. My interest lies in aspects of race that are not commonly talked about (in fact, the only aspect of race that is commonly talked about is “racism,” and how it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong — booooring).

    That’s fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal

    Yes, I am painfully aware that it is not universal. But neither is it universal to believe that the “real” value of a person has nothing whatsoever to do with his race. If that is your perspective, then fine, you are entitled to it. It is also the perspective that is shared by the vast bulk of the intelligentsia, the entirety of the media-entertainment complex, clerics of every religious brand (er, except one), and a sizable proportion of the masses. But not the entirety. I believe that those of us who reject your perspective have a right — indeed, an urgent need — to assert our values, too.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line – you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.

    I’m curious: what was your experience in Israel, as it relates to this issue? Did you try to pass yourself off as Jewish, and did Israelis seem to care? My understanding is that there is a sizable population of “non-halakhic” Jews (mostly ex-Soviet) who are campaigning to be recognized as Jews, but that this determination is in the hands of the religious authorities, who are holding firm.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @silviosilver


    sizable proportion of the masses. But not the entirety. I believe that those of us who reject your perspective have a right — indeed, an urgent need — to assert our values, too.

     

    By the way, here is a funny memory. The first time (or one of the first times) I saw a black person as a child, I remember that I walked to another side of the road so I didn't walk near them. Not because of any "racism", but just because my only knowledge of black people at that age, was from some American films or music videos. Opposite of what people claim here - blacks are often portrayed as violent in American cultural exports. (You don't see Americans films - at least in those days of the past - about black intellectuals and art critics).

    -

    Nobody said you cannot speak for your preferences, and I believe it is a not especially uncommon one, especially in colonial countries. But most of the "racism" in the world, is between people of similar race, but different nationality. The conflict is more strongly with the foreign cultures, religions, languages. The worst racism is usually between quite similar races. The worst racism in the EU? Latvians and Estonians, against their Russian minority (even though they are the most close racially).

    In Israel, the Arab Jews in Israel not just look the same as Arabs, but have more cultural similarity with the Arabs. And yet they are loyal to the European Jews, rather than the Arab Muslims who look like them. Moreover, the Arab Jews are ones who are the most nationalistic, or say "death to Arabs" (it's not the white people in Israel who say "death to Arabs").


    Did you try to pass yourself off as Jewish, and did Israelis seem to care?
     
    I didn't notice that they care. But I'm polite, clean and probably matching relatively positive stereotypes of the kind of foreigner who does not make problems: middle class, educated, young white people with Jewish roots, that know how to conjugate a verb in Hebrew.

    I think the secular Israelis are friendly for foreigners, more than for they should be considering the problems of illegal immigration there.


    My understanding is that there is a sizable population of “non-halakhic” Jews (mostly ex-Soviet) who are campaigning to be recognized as Jews, but that this determination is in the hands of the religious authorities, who are holding firm.
     
    Yes there are hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens, which do not have such a "halakhic status" as Jews, including a lot of the actual halakhic Jews from the former Soviet Union (who often don't have the right documents to satisfy rabbis as their ancestors were secular).

    But in Israel, such a status only relates to having a marriage or funeral. (And even most secular native Israeli Jews now prefer to marry abroad, as the religious marriage means divorce is almost impossible).

    In terms of normal life - the non-halakhic Jewish immigrants have a lot of advantages there. For example, immigrants do not pay for university tuition fees. Many native Israelis cannot afford to go to university, while Israeli government is funding immigrants (and also a lot of Arabs) with free university.

  283. @silviosilver
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry, if I say I want to talk about race because that is what interests me, it doesn't mean that I'm blind to nationality or that I'm unaware that most conflicts in history have been between people of the same race. That is so obvious that it hardly warrants mentioning. My interest lies in aspects of race that are not commonly talked about (in fact, the only aspect of race that is commonly talked about is "racism," and how it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong -- booooring).


    That’s fine, but this attitude to foreign faces is not universal
     
    Yes, I am painfully aware that it is not universal. But neither is it universal to believe that the "real" value of a person has nothing whatsoever to do with his race. If that is your perspective, then fine, you are entitled to it. It is also the perspective that is shared by the vast bulk of the intelligentsia, the entirety of the media-entertainment complex, clerics of every religious brand (er, except one), and a sizable proportion of the masses. But not the entirety. I believe that those of us who reject your perspective have a right -- indeed, an urgent need -- to assert our values, too.

    My Jewish roots are that my grandfather is Jewish (his mother was Jewish by nationality). While to be a real Jew (according to Israeli law), Jewish ancestry has to follow an continuous maternal line – you need the mother of your mother to be Jewish.
     
    I'm curious: what was your experience in Israel, as it relates to this issue? Did you try to pass yourself off as Jewish, and did Israelis seem to care? My understanding is that there is a sizable population of "non-halakhic" Jews (mostly ex-Soviet) who are campaigning to be recognized as Jews, but that this determination is in the hands of the religious authorities, who are holding firm.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    sizable proportion of the masses. But not the entirety. I believe that those of us who reject your perspective have a right — indeed, an urgent need — to assert our values, too.

    By the way, here is a funny memory. The first time (or one of the first times) I saw a black person as a child, I remember that I walked to another side of the road so I didn’t walk near them. Not because of any “racism”, but just because my only knowledge of black people at that age, was from some American films or music videos. Opposite of what people claim here – blacks are often portrayed as violent in American cultural exports. (You don’t see Americans films – at least in those days of the past – about black intellectuals and art critics).

    Nobody said you cannot speak for your preferences, and I believe it is a not especially uncommon one, especially in colonial countries. But most of the “racism” in the world, is between people of similar race, but different nationality. The conflict is more strongly with the foreign cultures, religions, languages. The worst racism is usually between quite similar races. The worst racism in the EU? Latvians and Estonians, against their Russian minority (even though they are the most close racially).

    In Israel, the Arab Jews in Israel not just look the same as Arabs, but have more cultural similarity with the Arabs. And yet they are loyal to the European Jews, rather than the Arab Muslims who look like them. Moreover, the Arab Jews are ones who are the most nationalistic, or say “death to Arabs” (it’s not the white people in Israel who say “death to Arabs”).

    Did you try to pass yourself off as Jewish, and did Israelis seem to care?

    I didn’t notice that they care. But I’m polite, clean and probably matching relatively positive stereotypes of the kind of foreigner who does not make problems: middle class, educated, young white people with Jewish roots, that know how to conjugate a verb in Hebrew.

    I think the secular Israelis are friendly for foreigners, more than for they should be considering the problems of illegal immigration there.

    My understanding is that there is a sizable population of “non-halakhic” Jews (mostly ex-Soviet) who are campaigning to be recognized as Jews, but that this determination is in the hands of the religious authorities, who are holding firm.

    Yes there are hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens, which do not have such a “halakhic status” as Jews, including a lot of the actual halakhic Jews from the former Soviet Union (who often don’t have the right documents to satisfy rabbis as their ancestors were secular).

    But in Israel, such a status only relates to having a marriage or funeral. (And even most secular native Israeli Jews now prefer to marry abroad, as the religious marriage means divorce is almost impossible).

    In terms of normal life – the non-halakhic Jewish immigrants have a lot of advantages there. For example, immigrants do not pay for university tuition fees. Many native Israelis cannot afford to go to university, while Israeli government is funding immigrants (and also a lot of Arabs) with free university.

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