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So as you might have heard Facebook has banned The Unz Review from its entire site. You can’t link to it on your Wall, in closed groups, or even mention it in private communications.

It has become The Website That Must Not Be Named, like South Front just a few days ago – another website that is critical of US foreign policy.

Yes, I suppose it’s “unfair.” As Ron Unz points out, we weren’t advising our readers to drink bleach, or calling for jihad against 5G towers. So far as just “science” and “facts and logic” go, many of us have been superlative, even if I do say so myself – supporting travel restrictions, calling for mass testing-tracing, and demanding universal mask wearing (something that Western health authorities are finally doing as well, their MSM-enabled hesitance having already cost 10,000’s of lives), while constantly being validated on our pessimistic predictions. Indeed, the very idea that a website that simultaneously publishes Chomsky and Eric Striker might have any kind of common editorial position is bizarre. On the Corona Question itself, viewpoints have ranged from “It’s Just the Flu Brah” (e.g. Israel Shamir said it was a hoax; Craig Murray compared it to the 1957 Hong Kong flu; Heiner Rindermann said the lockdowns weren’t worth the economic cost), to the rather more realistic/alarmist (cross out as per your preferences) coverage produced by Steve Sailer, Ron Unz, and yours truly.

From the geopolitical angle, I was speculating that it might have been produced by a bioerror at Wuhan’s BSL-4 facilities as early as January 27, i.e. well before it became cool (though I always stressed that zoonotic events do banally happen all the time and this was ultimately the most likely explanation). On the other end of the scale, relatively speaking, was Ron Unz, Godfree Roberts, and several other guest authors who theorized that it was an American bioweapons attack, including the very article by Ron Unz that was likely what precipitated our banning from Facebook. I would further note that the only columnist here who energetically propounded a theory that turned out to be wrong, and kept doing so long after it became obvious to everyone but the most obstinate, no longer seems to be reprinted here.

But it’s also sort of irrelevant. There is now a bipartisan commitment to “confronting” China, one that will probably lead to the Great Bifurcation of the world economy this decade (Corona-chan merely accelerated existing trends). I recall Boomer Bannon said something to the effect that the US only has 5-10 years left to “contain” China before it becomes the world’s premier superpower (this was in the mid-2010s, so margins are now short). FTR I think it’s way too late already, but clearly the deep state disagrees and it is going to run roughshod over dissenters now and in the coming years and many of them are going to have more problems that getting banned from some social media site.

So what’s even the point of being angry with The Zucc? If the “men in dark suits” can order around US Presidents, as Putin observed then, then ordering around some limp-wristed weakling is well within their capabilities. It’s not, after all, like Zucc is Durov, a true Chad who fasts every weekend, takes ice baths, and walks around with sunglasses 24/7 who sent both FSB and CIA rats alike scurrying with their tails between their legs. Besides, he might not be all that ardent of Sinophile himself, after all the efforts he made to ingratiate himself with CPC honchos and they ended up cockblocking his expansion plans in China anyway.

The Virgin Zucc

The Chad Durov

(And then they’ll tell you physiognomy is “pseudoscience”).

Nonetheless, continuing to offer Facebook the privilege of making powerful poasts on their platform while they censor my own articles would make me a CUCK. And getting cucked by The Zuck of all people is extra humiliating.

So I’m stopping my participation here until and unless they reverse their ban on sharing Unz Review articles.

I will continue exercising my freedom of speech at the Russian platform VK, you can follow me there: https://vk.com/akarlin88

You can also follow me on:

I am not going to insist people follow me, since Facebook has practical utility for many (legacy + network effects). But for politics you’d probably want to go to VK if you need a Facebook-like platform.

After the decriminalization of Article 282 it’s even safe for Russian nationalists.

***

On a slightly different topic, apologies for the paucity of posting of late. Don’t worry, I have yet to be “blessed” by Our Lady. I’ll have another flood of big posts in a few days.

***

 
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  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. They probably don’t need to explain their actions, but did they give any specific reasons for the ban at this time?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    We might find out, see #3. (But probably not).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  3. • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Already there https://vk.com/id237250008 . Hardly use it. No mad Brexiters to fight with. No, that's Twitter. FB is friends and family only anyway.

  4. @Mr. Hack
    They probably don't need to explain their actions, but did they give any specific reasons for the ban at this time?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    We might find out, see #3. (But probably not).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You're probably aware of Ron Unz' recent announcement where he pretty much shoulders all of the "blame" for the recent banning on Facebook. He feels that it was a direct response to his latest piece detailing why a cautious American elite might feel threatened by his suggestion that it was they that launched a "deliberate biowarfare attack against China."


    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

     

    It appears that anything that you may have written about this subject was minor in comparison to this "no guns hold" approach that Unz decided to level at those at the top of the US hierarchy.
  5. With all due respect, considering that the Unz Review is hosting a whole bunch of its just the flu people, and kill the old and obese for the economy people, maybe this is a good thing?

    • Troll: LondonBob
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @128

    Yes, we don't want to confuse "scientific truth" by introducing alternative views of what might really be at play.

  6. I would further note that the only columnist here who energetically propounded a theory that turned out to be wrong, and kept doing so long after it became obvious to everyone but the most obstinate, no longer seems to be reprinted here.

    That was quick to be proven wrong. I’ll just wonder aloud if him ceasing being reprinted had anything to do with it, or if he admitted his hypothesis is conclusively bunk as of now. One apparently simply doesn’t concede he was full of shit. Some ideas: he could argue that in fact, the Asian percentage of the population in the US, or in NYC, is much higher than reported (secret Asians) or that moribund Chinese and other Asians are coming to the US just to add to the Wuflu case and death count (death tourism), or simply that most of the million diagnosed American cases (and the deaths) are misatributted or fake (easiest one), or all of the above, or something.

    And Mr. Karlin need not worry about catching Corona-chan. I have it in good authority (someone on the internet told me, forgot whom) it only affects 5’6” feminist betas with gynecomastia and low muscle tone.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @adreadline

    Here’s a list of relevant Lance Welton headlines since he stopped being reprinted here:


    Jews Fear They’re Prone To Coronavirus—But Race-Denying Ruling Class Suppresses The Facts

    Jon Entine Goes There—Suggests Race May Explain Why Africa Is a WuFlu “Cold Spot”

    It’s Now OK To Talk About WuFlu And Race—Because Blacks Get It, So Whites Can Be Blamed!

    UK Race Czar Trevor Phillips Calls For Covid-19 Race Data—May Have Found Why UK Muslims Less Impacted

    WuFlu Racial Impact Suggests Third World Immigration May Be Bad—For Them
     
    , @MEH 0910
    @adreadline

    https://vdare.com/writers/lance-welton

    , @David
    @adreadline

    his ceasing and forgot who

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Fran Macadam
    @adreadline

    Zetas.

  7. 128 says:

    My hypothesis is the multigenerational household cultures like Italy, or cultures where the older people are in regular contact with their children and grandchildren like China, are inherently better than nuclear household Northern European cultures, and are psychologically healthier for old people to live in too, in addition the older generation’s more conservative social values can help exert influence to keep the younger people from moral degeneracy, so the sacrifices in terms of young people staying home for 6 weeks to protect the elderly in times like these are worth it.

  8. So I’m stopping my participation here until and unless they reverse their ban on sharing Unz Review articles.

    By “here”, do you mean Facebook or the Unz Review? I just want to clarify this part.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. XYZ

    Take a wiiiild guess.

  9. @Mr. XYZ

    So I’m stopping my participation here until and unless they reverse their ban on sharing Unz Review articles.
     
    By "here", do you mean Facebook or the Unz Review? I just want to clarify this part.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Take a wiiiild guess.

  10. There is a sense that Americans are starting to celebrate – at least
    those living in the states that have already re-opened or will re-open
    May 4, which are mostly conservative Southern and Midwestern
    states. The sense of elation is palpable, and reminds me of the
    quiet sense of elation and disbelief on the morning after Trump
    was elected president. I travel a lot and happened to be in the
    Midwest when it happened.

    As it is, medically the U.S. has weathered the pandemic quite well.
    200 fatalities per million is much lower than the rates in W. Europe.
    Considering that 40-50% of the Covid fatalities have occurred in
    the New York City tri-state area where 18 million people are
    packed like sardines into a small terrirory, the rate for (USA minus NYC)
    is probably closer to 100 deaths per 1M, which is reasonable during
    a pandemic. And who cares about New York anyway? It was an ecological
    disaster waiting to happen. At least that’s how many conservatives think.
    In other words, New York had it coming.

    The American Way of Life, a phrase you don’t hear very often anymore,
    provides at least two advantages during a pandemic, (1) low population
    density as people often live on half-acre plots in the suburbs, (2) low use
    of public transportation. Thus social distancing is built into the American
    Way of Life. Of course, it’ll be difficult for the U.S. to approach the
    rates in Central Europe (or Eastern Europe so far), where Poland, for
    example, has had only 17 fatalities per 1 M. Poland was largely spared
    during the Black Death ca. 1350, and I was convinced Poland would be
    spared again, and this is turning out to be correct.

    • Replies: @128
    @Anon 2

    Because you people are more stupid than a box of hammers? Has it not occurred to you that Poland also low population density and still has a lower death rate, how many deaths did Hong Kong or Seoul have?

    Replies: @Anon 2, @reiner Tor

    , @The Alarmist
    @Anon 2

    The stats for Florida, AKA God's waiting room, suggest an excess death rate approaching zero.

    , @Dumbo
    @Anon 2

    American "Conservatives" are retarded. As someone said, they couldn't even conserve the bathroom.

    This "pandemic" is mostly a stupid hoax, and the "American way of life" is swallowing it.

    Also, there's nothing particularly "American" about living in the country or in small towns, it's how people have lived for thousands of years. It's today huge modern cities such as NY or London which are unnatural.

  11. Was the hard lockdown in China universally applied, or was it only losely applied to isolated hamlets and villages far away from urban areas?

    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    @128

    IIRC, China only locked down Hubei Province (where Wuhan is located), which is just one of the country's 34 provinces. I believe there were some travel restrictions for a time in the provinces surrounding Hubei, but no real lockdown elsewhere in the country.

    Maybe that's why China still has a functional economy after 'the plague'?

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @yakushimaru, @Anonymous (n)

  12. @Anon 2
    There is a sense that Americans are starting to celebrate - at least
    those living in the states that have already re-opened or will re-open
    May 4, which are mostly conservative Southern and Midwestern
    states. The sense of elation is palpable, and reminds me of the
    quiet sense of elation and disbelief on the morning after Trump
    was elected president. I travel a lot and happened to be in the
    Midwest when it happened.

    As it is, medically the U.S. has weathered the pandemic quite well.
    200 fatalities per million is much lower than the rates in W. Europe.
    Considering that 40-50% of the Covid fatalities have occurred in
    the New York City tri-state area where 18 million people are
    packed like sardines into a small terrirory, the rate for (USA minus NYC)
    is probably closer to 100 deaths per 1M, which is reasonable during
    a pandemic. And who cares about New York anyway? It was an ecological
    disaster waiting to happen. At least that’s how many conservatives think.
    In other words, New York had it coming.

    The American Way of Life, a phrase you don’t hear very often anymore,
    provides at least two advantages during a pandemic, (1) low population
    density as people often live on half-acre plots in the suburbs, (2) low use
    of public transportation. Thus social distancing is built into the American
    Way of Life. Of course, it’ll be difficult for the U.S. to approach the
    rates in Central Europe (or Eastern Europe so far), where Poland, for
    example, has had only 17 fatalities per 1 M. Poland was largely spared
    during the Black Death ca. 1350, and I was convinced Poland would be
    spared again, and this is turning out to be correct.

    Replies: @128, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo

    Because you people are more stupid than a box of hammers? Has it not occurred to you that Poland also low population density and still has a lower death rate, how many deaths did Hong Kong or Seoul have?

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @128

    Everybody, listen to the voice of wisdom unlike any that mankind
    has ever seen - 128 in all its glory!

    , @reiner Tor
    @128

    Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter, we need his level of powerfulness.

    Replies: @128, @Anon 2

  13. @128
    @Anon 2

    Because you people are more stupid than a box of hammers? Has it not occurred to you that Poland also low population density and still has a lower death rate, how many deaths did Hong Kong or Seoul have?

    Replies: @Anon 2, @reiner Tor

    Everybody, listen to the voice of wisdom unlike any that mankind
    has ever seen – 128 in all its glory!

  14. How many pounds can Hitler, Netanyahu, or Ben Gurion lift compared to Pavel Durov, who has more political influence in their time?

  15. I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @128

    Nothing can really beat real life variable travel for excitement and the opportunity for a total immersion into new cultural explorations. It's one of the important things that separates us from our ancestors' sedentary lifestyle that very often didn't extend much more than a few miles beyond ones birthplace. Of course the hippies of the 1960's, prolific world travelers that they were, often dreamed of intellectual travel as being a superior means of travel. Take this trip: :-)

    https://youtu.be/YqOiZjwQKaU

    , @dfordoom
    @128


    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Let's not worry about all those tourist businesses going bust. I don't have a tourist business so I don't care. And let's not worry about entire towns dependent on tourism being destroyed, with every business in the town going broke and all the townspeople losing their livelihoods. I don't live in such a town so I don't care. And I don't like travelling overseas so why the Hell should anyone else be allowed to do so? And we certainly shouldn't worry about a large sector of the economy being wiped out.

    Also I don't like golf. Is golf absolutely necessary? Why not just get rid of it? Why should someone else be allowed to enjoy something I don't like?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @yakushimaru, @UK

    , @The Alarmist
    @128

    That's just sad, dude. Do you really want to live in a world deprived of millions of views like this?

    https://www.eyesighthawaii.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/AdobeStock_79367633.jpeg

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    , @Dumbo
    @128


    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?

     

    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @G. Poulin
    @128

    And whorehouses could, theoretically, be replaced by telephone sex. But something would be lacking.

  16. @128
    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @dfordoom, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo, @G. Poulin

    Nothing can really beat real life variable travel for excitement and the opportunity for a total immersion into new cultural explorations. It’s one of the important things that separates us from our ancestors’ sedentary lifestyle that very often didn’t extend much more than a few miles beyond ones birthplace. Of course the hippies of the 1960’s, prolific world travelers that they were, often dreamed of intellectual travel as being a superior means of travel. Take this trip: 🙂

    • Agree: John Achterhof
  17. The little Facebook nerd stole/copy/infringe the Facebook platform from the creators of Hi5 (by now it has changed ownership). Unfortunately, Hi5 creators were wrong ethnicity to succeed in the USA at the level the cheat Zucker succeeded.

    I pointed this out on the Facebook and my account was immediately closed by the “nerd” servants.

  18. mal says:

    It’s not, after all, like Zucc is Durov, a true Chad who fasts every weekend, takes ice baths, and walks around with sunglasses 24/7 who sent both FSB and CIA rats alike scurrying with their tails between their legs.

    Sure, but is Durov a ravenous irradiated cancer resistant immortal polyp? Zucc probably is at this point.

    With funds from Chan Zuckerberg’s Biohub, the goal is to latest technology to figure out how to pinpoint the “cellular mechanisms that keep their genes in better shape,” explains Palumbi.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/chan-zuckerberg-biohub-14-million-coral-reef-human-biome.html

  19. @128
    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @dfordoom, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo, @G. Poulin

    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?

    Let’s not worry about all those tourist businesses going bust. I don’t have a tourist business so I don’t care. And let’s not worry about entire towns dependent on tourism being destroyed, with every business in the town going broke and all the townspeople losing their livelihoods. I don’t live in such a town so I don’t care. And I don’t like travelling overseas so why the Hell should anyone else be allowed to do so? And we certainly shouldn’t worry about a large sector of the economy being wiped out.

    Also I don’t like golf. Is golf absolutely necessary? Why not just get rid of it? Why should someone else be allowed to enjoy something I don’t like?

    • LOL: Mr. Hack, LondonBob
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    It might not be so terrible for countries which aren’t net recipients of tourism income. Even in Hungary there’s now talk of people going to Lake Balaton instead of Greece or Croatia, so some of it might survive. But the best Budapest restaurants mostly catered to tourists, or perhaps business travelers and expats. So probably the quality of restaurants will soon drop significantly. Some of the best restaurants will close, maybe most of them. That will drop the quality of life for those locals who patronized them. It’s not just a question of money, I know moderate income people who spend more on restaurants and less on having a nice (or any) car, and I know high income people whose idea of a good meal is having something delivered from a moderately good pizzeria.

    Mass tourism was not perhaps the highest quality entertainment, but people will be objectively poorer without it. I certainly like traveling by plane.

    Replies: @Znzn

    , @yakushimaru
    @dfordoom

    When you have a virus out there, you wouldn't get too much tourism going even if the government is encouraging it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @UK
    @dfordoom

    A year ago I would have thought your post was too broad a satire, but now I have seen endless shut-ins bemoaning other people's freedom to not be as miserable as them, and I think it underplays the issue.

    Even if it doesn't, I am certain that a lot of people at least want to give the impression that they'd prefer it if everyone in the world was locked in their homes forever.

    Replies: @g2k

  20. @adreadline

    I would further note that the only columnist here who energetically propounded a theory that turned out to be wrong, and kept doing so long after it became obvious to everyone but the most obstinate, no longer seems to be reprinted here.
     
    That was quick to be proven wrong. I'll just wonder aloud if him ceasing being reprinted had anything to do with it, or if he admitted his hypothesis is conclusively bunk as of now. One apparently simply doesn't concede he was full of shit. Some ideas: he could argue that in fact, the Asian percentage of the population in the US, or in NYC, is much higher than reported (secret Asians) or that moribund Chinese and other Asians are coming to the US just to add to the Wuflu case and death count (death tourism), or simply that most of the million diagnosed American cases (and the deaths) are misatributted or fake (easiest one), or all of the above, or something.

    And Mr. Karlin need not worry about catching Corona-chan. I have it in good authority (someone on the internet told me, forgot whom) it only affects 5'6'' feminist betas with gynecomastia and low muscle tone.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @MEH 0910, @David, @Fran Macadam

    Here’s a list of relevant Lance Welton headlines since he stopped being reprinted here:

    Jews Fear They’re Prone To Coronavirus—But Race-Denying Ruling Class Suppresses The Facts

    Jon Entine Goes There—Suggests Race May Explain Why Africa Is a WuFlu “Cold Spot”

    It’s Now OK To Talk About WuFlu And Race—Because Blacks Get It, So Whites Can Be Blamed!

    UK Race Czar Trevor Phillips Calls For Covid-19 Race Data—May Have Found Why UK Muslims Less Impacted

    WuFlu Racial Impact Suggests Third World Immigration May Be Bad—For Them

    • Thanks: adreadline
  21. @dfordoom
    @128


    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Let's not worry about all those tourist businesses going bust. I don't have a tourist business so I don't care. And let's not worry about entire towns dependent on tourism being destroyed, with every business in the town going broke and all the townspeople losing their livelihoods. I don't live in such a town so I don't care. And I don't like travelling overseas so why the Hell should anyone else be allowed to do so? And we certainly shouldn't worry about a large sector of the economy being wiped out.

    Also I don't like golf. Is golf absolutely necessary? Why not just get rid of it? Why should someone else be allowed to enjoy something I don't like?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @yakushimaru, @UK

    It might not be so terrible for countries which aren’t net recipients of tourism income. Even in Hungary there’s now talk of people going to Lake Balaton instead of Greece or Croatia, so some of it might survive. But the best Budapest restaurants mostly catered to tourists, or perhaps business travelers and expats. So probably the quality of restaurants will soon drop significantly. Some of the best restaurants will close, maybe most of them. That will drop the quality of life for those locals who patronized them. It’s not just a question of money, I know moderate income people who spend more on restaurants and less on having a nice (or any) car, and I know high income people whose idea of a good meal is having something delivered from a moderately good pizzeria.

    Mass tourism was not perhaps the highest quality entertainment, but people will be objectively poorer without it. I certainly like traveling by plane.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @reiner Tor

    Maybe you could classify areas as low risk, like countries without widespread community spread could be allow countries without widespread community spread to travel with each other fairly freely.

  22. @128
    @Anon 2

    Because you people are more stupid than a box of hammers? Has it not occurred to you that Poland also low population density and still has a lower death rate, how many deaths did Hong Kong or Seoul have?

    Replies: @Anon 2, @reiner Tor

    Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter, we need his level of powerfulness.

    • Replies: @128
    @reiner Tor

    I just think white people countries have responded very incompetently.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Anon 2
    @reiner Tor

    Re: Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter


    “Polak, Węgier, Dwa Bratanki, ...” (“Pole, Hungarian, Brothers Be, ...”)

  23. @Anatoly

    Unless I misunderstood your post, I think you have a typo: “So I’m stopping my participation *THERE* until and unless they reverse their ban on sharing Unz Review articles.” (i.e. you will stop posting on Facebook) – or did you mean you’ll stop posting on Unz too?

  24. Tusk says:

    I feel bad for the Zuccster since he’s a nebbish and wimpy looking man so that’s always going to be part of his character. I’m genuinely surprised Facebook is still a big thing and hasn’t been out competed by culturally different models. It seems to me every choice FB makes worsens the platform to the point I don’t understand why anyone would subject themselves to that garbage just to stay in contact with acquaintances.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Tusk


    just to stay in contact with acquaintances
     
    Just? That’s a pretty big deal, especially if most of your acquaintances live far away from you.
    , @Mikhail
    @Tusk

    No need to feel sorry for the likes of Zuckerberg. Those earnest others with talent seeking a level playing field are the ones who (comparatively speaking) deserve compassion.

    Related to this thread, Adam Schiff (an older version of Zuck) very recently sent an open letter calling for the censorship:

    https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/1255902443390599169

    Prior to this latest development, Facebook, had some suspect aspects.

  25. When will they upgrade the Trans Siberian to a higher speed rail, even if HSR is not possible because it is too expensive, it is still possible to cut the journey time down to 90 hours from a week, like what the Chinese have done with their conventional rail.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @128

    Never, despite industry lobbying.

    Passenger rail competes with cross-country car trips, not airplanes. Saving hours and minutes is just not important compared to all the other variables.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

  26. I am surprised the US didn’t launch attacks all over Iran. With oil in the negative and the market already in turmoil this is the perfect time to take on Iran (with zero oil profits and a terrible outbreak). Two trump cards have been nullified, if Tel Aviv needs to take a bit of shrapnel in this adventure who cares (they want this war the most). At least we would have gotten something else to watch instead of who can win the “most hysterical” contest.

    But I guess if USN carriers can’t handle a bitch ass flu with all that CBRN equipment and training then Iran has nothing to worry about for the foreseeable future. Determination. LOL.

    As for facebook. Only queers use facebook so this is a net gain. If you use facebook you should swallow your own gun for the betterment of mankind. I remember 15~ years ago(?) when Facebook launched and required college/university email to register. I never understood what facebook offered back then nor what it offers now to make it so dominant online. I assume its meant to keep the plebeians in order.

    We’re slowly coming out of this lockdown and so far only 5% of those I see on the street have masks and they are, oddly, black people; yes I heard there is a disproportionate number of deaths amongst blacks in the US with covid-19. I’ve visited the US enough times to know there is a huge difference in the health of black people in Canada and the US. Black Americans are ashy, obese, appear significantly unhealthier, and are dumb as bricks (when I was 19-20 years old I had to visit Buffalo frequently as I would buy shit homes, fix them up and either rent them out or flip them: how people live really reflects their intelligence….)

    Perhaps its because I live in an affluent neighbourhood now but white and Asian people do not wear masks here. The only place you can see masks is to go to the poorer neighbourhoods (primarily black areas like Jane and Finch here in Toronto). As a matter of fact very little has changed in my area save for liquor stores closing early. Restaurants are extremely busy with take-out orders (with freebies left-right-and-center). Social distancing is half-assed most of the time (if observed at all). Families are out almost everyday riding bikes, peacocking their sports cars or doing some outdoor activity with their children. People haven’t fallen for the novelty of playing with such gimmicks as masking (I guess only a handful of us passed biochem in university…)

    My neighbour is a GP (Turkey season opened up April 25, had a nice hunt on one of his too few days off) and he is telling me he is diagnosing at least 1 covid-19 patient a day (at his clinic of 3 doctors, each at a rate of 1 per day) without testing, going off of what symptoms he can observe and government guidelines. This has been steady for months now. When I asked him how many developed serious symptoms and went on to be hospitalized and the answer was a big fat ZERO. No I didn’t wear a mask around him, I actually passed high school.

    A big nothing burger. Everyday more and more news comes out how 100,000s (if not millions) already have antibodies. In northern France, in Florida, in New York, in California, in sporadic German towns…. The one guy who passed away from covid19 and gave me pause ended up being a diabetic (a 37 year old Brazilian jujitsu practitioner).

    After all if a fat body like Boris Johnson can make it (and also have a healthy baby boy born right after) so can the healthy and more wealthy portions of society. But lets all pretend that didn’t happen and rush into MOP posture. QUICK! FULL RETARD MODE 1-2-3 GO!!!

    If you’re masking chances are you don’t know what you are doing.

    Speaking of gimmicks!!!!!

    DISCLAIMER LONG DRUNK VR/GAMES/MODAFINIL POST BELOW, ONLY CHADS WITH BALLS OF STEEL ALLOWED TO VIEW:

    [MORE]

    So with all this free money Canada is throwing I finally got an Oculus Rift to try out Alyx and other VR crap. Couldn’t justify wasting money unless someone was giving it to me and here we are. Being a 32 year old man gaming has taken a back seat as I don’t have the time to pour 18 hours into Quake 3 like its 1999.

    Long story short VR is totally a gimmick. I have a pretty big place to run around (I set up a private gym in my basement big enough that one can jog in a circuit separate from the mat space for jujitsu & weights; “more than your own life can depend on your physical fitness” is a philosophy EVERYONE should live by) and even so it was not as physically demanding as I wanted. No rolls. No running. No jumps. Just slight walking and the occasional semi-crouch. I understand they make these things for people seated in small tiny Japanese-style closet apartments but I was hoping for options. Walk to a window in-game and BAM teleport outside of it. Gay-alert.

    For ~$1000 its not really worth it. VR was supposed to save gaming but I can’t see how. Even after downing a bottle of Stolichnaya and doing a couple of rails I couldn’t really get into it. I couldn’t “suspend my disbelief” as they say.

    If I had to sum it up Alyx is just the combination of all the VR gimmicks on the market. Shoot people in the head by eyeing your shots (or throw bottles in the air and shoot them), swing objects like a flailing retard, throw and catch stuff with no skill (items MAGICALLY land in your hand when thrown at you), puzzles involving looking throughout the room in multiple vision modes tracing wires or sifting through junk for ammo….. Again, mildly amusing for 5 minutes until you realize you’ve done things in real life more entertaining… roughly 10 hours of gameplay with a half-way point that changes up the pace.

    Non-VR games::

    Bannerlord is alright, it still needs a couple of more years of development, so far its just Mount and Blade with graphical improvements and some minor additions but it is early access so all those beloved features will seep in slowly. Things like improving the AI and fleshing out features. Wait until 2021.
    Doom Eternal*sigh* terrible, I remember the days when Id Software would rock the entire industry with new innovations. Now it’s just another developer. I miss John Carmack, at least he would make his engine open source after a few years. Doom 2 > Doom Eternal by milestones. Doom Eternal felt like Painkiller (a 2013 Polish game). Go into a chamber, chamber locks, fight all the bad guys jumping around using character-based attributes, repeat.
    DBZ Kakarot…. this game is 20 years too late. I have no idea who would play it now when the market is flooded with such clones (perhaps not in the same IP as DBZ but the gameplay isn’t unique). Nothing special.

    Modafinil:

    FINALLY I got my hand on Canadian made modafinil, two brands TEVA and AURO (instead of the Indian garbage online which is utter shit, all duds). Oh boy they weren’t kidding. Modafinil at baseline (no alcohol or other drugs) is very subtle. Unlike amphetamines which is easily noticeable due to the mood elevation Modafinil is only noticeable when you stop working and catch yourself back at work again. I program in C++ (as a hobby) and I can say it is a programmers drug. Modafinil can be used to extend workouts too but its not as thermogenic as Ephedrine + Caffeine (now that shit will burn fat and suppress appetites like a motherfucker). I can see why it has replaced amphetamine-based “go” pills with the US Air Force. Pilots can be extended out on patrol for days with minimal sleep and no mood change (unlike amphetamines which at higher doses produce ungodly paranoia).

    So in conclusion Modafinil > VR. I would rather put a $1000 into modafinil then into virtual reality.

    Spice Melange over Thinking Machines.

    Time to see how well it stacks with phenlypiracetam and choline.

    I’m glad this lockdown hysteria is starting to ease up and life can get back to normal. Shit China closed down Hubei province ONLY and just limited unnecessary travel in other provinces (work is necessary so that did not stop). But the West went FULL RETARD and closed everything and I’m not sure why….

    Fucking Modafinil + booze, its 4AM and I feel like I can run a goddamn marathon.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Max Payne

    You're really wired, man (Dude)! :-)

    https://youtu.be/uwHBtUIKV70

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  27. From the geopolitical angle, I was speculating that it might have been produced by a bioerror at Wuhan’s BSL-4 facilities as early as January 27, i.e. well before it became cool (though I always stressed that zoonotic events do banally happen all the time and this was ultimately the most likely explanation).

    The ultimate source of Corona-chan remains unclear but presumably the loose bioweapon angle was why the Chinese reacted so strongly. I get the impression that most governments did not connect the dots, however.

  28. @Tusk
    I feel bad for the Zuccster since he's a nebbish and wimpy looking man so that's always going to be part of his character. I'm genuinely surprised Facebook is still a big thing and hasn't been out competed by culturally different models. It seems to me every choice FB makes worsens the platform to the point I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to that garbage just to stay in contact with acquaintances.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mikhail

    just to stay in contact with acquaintances

    Just? That’s a pretty big deal, especially if most of your acquaintances live far away from you.

  29. @reiner Tor
    @128

    Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter, we need his level of powerfulness.

    Replies: @128, @Anon 2

    I just think white people countries have responded very incompetently.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @128

    Germany seems to have managed the first wave of the pandemic quite efficiently, and can already re-open. There it correlates a little to popular stereotypes about German intelligence, effective management, etc. Of Axis powers, only Italy really easily falls to coronavirus - which is what people would probably predict from traditional stereotypes.

    Sweden is just behaving with their Scandinavian eccentricity - it's not exactly incompetence.

    Latin countries - fallen to the virus quite easily and disorganizedly, but can rely more on summer heat to ameliorate the epidemic in the next months.

    Balkan races (well they maybe more half-way to the Middle East and semi-brown)- have responded with all the expected peasant wisdom, and avoided the first wave of the epidemic.

    Great Britain is the one where it has broken all expectations in the wrong direction. One of the world's most successful and capable countries, responding as one of the most incompetently. There is also the population actively undermining an extremely expensive lockdown, because of inability to delay gratification for a few weeks - which I would never have imagined from the good behaviour of the country in most other times.

  30. @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    It might not be so terrible for countries which aren’t net recipients of tourism income. Even in Hungary there’s now talk of people going to Lake Balaton instead of Greece or Croatia, so some of it might survive. But the best Budapest restaurants mostly catered to tourists, or perhaps business travelers and expats. So probably the quality of restaurants will soon drop significantly. Some of the best restaurants will close, maybe most of them. That will drop the quality of life for those locals who patronized them. It’s not just a question of money, I know moderate income people who spend more on restaurants and less on having a nice (or any) car, and I know high income people whose idea of a good meal is having something delivered from a moderately good pizzeria.

    Mass tourism was not perhaps the highest quality entertainment, but people will be objectively poorer without it. I certainly like traveling by plane.

    Replies: @Znzn

    Maybe you could classify areas as low risk, like countries without widespread community spread could be allow countries without widespread community spread to travel with each other fairly freely.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  31. @dfordoom
    @128


    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Let's not worry about all those tourist businesses going bust. I don't have a tourist business so I don't care. And let's not worry about entire towns dependent on tourism being destroyed, with every business in the town going broke and all the townspeople losing their livelihoods. I don't live in such a town so I don't care. And I don't like travelling overseas so why the Hell should anyone else be allowed to do so? And we certainly shouldn't worry about a large sector of the economy being wiped out.

    Also I don't like golf. Is golf absolutely necessary? Why not just get rid of it? Why should someone else be allowed to enjoy something I don't like?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @yakushimaru, @UK

    When you have a virus out there, you wouldn’t get too much tourism going even if the government is encouraging it.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @yakushimaru


    When you have a virus out there, you wouldn’t get too much tourism going even if the government is encouraging it.
     
    Of course.

    But I get the feeling that there are quite a few people who would be quite happy to see tourism and air travel permanently eliminated. And I suspect they'd be quite happy with the consequences reiner Tor has mentioned - such as no more restaurants.

    What worries me is the emergence of an increasingly puritanical killjoy attitude on the far right. I get the impression that some alt-righters would like us all to live as small farmers in log cabins in the woods, with lots of guns of course. They hate the modern world (which is understandable in some ways) but they want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    There are lots of things that are unnecessary. Tourism is unnecessary. Restaurants are unnecessary. Going to the beach is unnecessary. Playing golf is unnecessary. Going to football matches is unnecessary. Going to the cinema is unnecessary.

    But it's the unnecessary things that make life worth living.
  32. Time to declare it a lost cause and exterminatus Stockholm?

  33. @128
    Was the hard lockdown in China universally applied, or was it only losely applied to isolated hamlets and villages far away from urban areas?

    Replies: @Digital Samizdat

    IIRC, China only locked down Hubei Province (where Wuhan is located), which is just one of the country’s 34 provinces. I believe there were some travel restrictions for a time in the provinces surrounding Hubei, but no real lockdown elsewhere in the country.

    Maybe that’s why China still has a functional economy after ‘the plague’?

    • Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Digital Samizdat

    There may not have been an official lockdown in every part of China but the fear of the virus was universal and people stayed inside like a lockdown was imposed. From the start of the lockdown in Wuhan to the end of February, the streets were nearly deserted and it looked like a relatively air tight lockdown was in place even when it was possible to roam around freely and go to the few non-essential businesses that had stayed open despite lack of customers. This weekend is the middle of a 5-day May Day weekend and while foot and car traffic in city centers appears to be normal and has been for while, people are not returning to tourism. Mask wearing outside is about 100%. Many workplaces are still largely empty because workers continue to work from home. The fear is still there.

    , @yakushimaru
    @Digital Samizdat

    We were all scared chickens. When government said "Virus", we all just hid in our home. There's no need for government to say "Lockdown". It just happened. Except maybe a handful in a country of a billion who needed "help" from police.

    There's really a difference between peoples. But I don't think it's because of some deep history or genetics, but rather, different people having different assumptions about their governments, and other simple reasons.

    1. At the time we did not know that it mainly hit the old and unhealthy. Of course you were scared.

    2. Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it's really, really bad.

    3. I do think that somehow we love our elders more. Maybe it is because the family structures, and economic reasons too. Deep history probably plays a role as well.

    4. I think everybody implicitly understands that there never is a choice between economy and health. Somehow westerners think there is a choice is quite a surprise. How is it possible to have a normal run economy when there is a virus out there? Oh, yes, maybe it is just the flu. Or maybe it only kills orientals.

    5. I also think that most Chinese believed, from the beginning, that the virus will be done with after a few weeks. It is a surprise that it hit the world after it's largely over in China (future is uncertain, though). The experience in HK and Singapore, even Korea, all suggest that it can be done with in at most two months. It means that any economic pain will be over soon. This belief, of course, is no more.

    6. There is no pressure from the people for religious gatherings. And, in rural areas, government has that kind of authority, not exactly spiritual, but I am not talking about police authority. I guess I am talking about the simple fact that there is no other political or spiritual organizations.

    7. And science weighs more on Chinese minds, believe it or not. Probably because of the history of recent 200 years. Or, maybe I should say, pragmatism.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @inertial

    , @Anonymous (n)
    @Digital Samizdat

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a "lockdown" anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu'er so not sure why I even bother.

    Replies: @inertial, @utu, @yakushimaru, @128

  34. 128 says:

    Unless you are looking at a news source from planet Neptune (and how cool is that?) every city in China over 100,000 carried out tight movement restrictions, I am less sure whether your rural hamlet of a few hundred people also had lockdowns or restricted entry and exit, but it seems that they did also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_lockdown_in_Hubei

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
    @128


    every city in China over 100,000 carried out tight movement restrictions
     
    ... that it is possible is because Chinese people cooperated.

    Replies: @128

  35. Russian websites are quite good, I have found some interesting stuff at VK. I have a back-up email at Yandex, which is quite aesthetically pleasing.

  36. @Max Payne
    I am surprised the US didn't launch attacks all over Iran. With oil in the negative and the market already in turmoil this is the perfect time to take on Iran (with zero oil profits and a terrible outbreak). Two trump cards have been nullified, if Tel Aviv needs to take a bit of shrapnel in this adventure who cares (they want this war the most). At least we would have gotten something else to watch instead of who can win the "most hysterical" contest.

    But I guess if USN carriers can't handle a bitch ass flu with all that CBRN equipment and training then Iran has nothing to worry about for the foreseeable future. Determination. LOL.

    As for facebook. Only queers use facebook so this is a net gain. If you use facebook you should swallow your own gun for the betterment of mankind. I remember 15~ years ago(?) when Facebook launched and required college/university email to register. I never understood what facebook offered back then nor what it offers now to make it so dominant online. I assume its meant to keep the plebeians in order.

    We're slowly coming out of this lockdown and so far only 5% of those I see on the street have masks and they are, oddly, black people; yes I heard there is a disproportionate number of deaths amongst blacks in the US with covid-19. I've visited the US enough times to know there is a huge difference in the health of black people in Canada and the US. Black Americans are ashy, obese, appear significantly unhealthier, and are dumb as bricks (when I was 19-20 years old I had to visit Buffalo frequently as I would buy shit homes, fix them up and either rent them out or flip them: how people live really reflects their intelligence....)

    Perhaps its because I live in an affluent neighbourhood now but white and Asian people do not wear masks here. The only place you can see masks is to go to the poorer neighbourhoods (primarily black areas like Jane and Finch here in Toronto). As a matter of fact very little has changed in my area save for liquor stores closing early. Restaurants are extremely busy with take-out orders (with freebies left-right-and-center). Social distancing is half-assed most of the time (if observed at all). Families are out almost everyday riding bikes, peacocking their sports cars or doing some outdoor activity with their children. People haven't fallen for the novelty of playing with such gimmicks as masking (I guess only a handful of us passed biochem in university...)

    My neighbour is a GP (Turkey season opened up April 25, had a nice hunt on one of his too few days off) and he is telling me he is diagnosing at least 1 covid-19 patient a day (at his clinic of 3 doctors, each at a rate of 1 per day) without testing, going off of what symptoms he can observe and government guidelines. This has been steady for months now. When I asked him how many developed serious symptoms and went on to be hospitalized and the answer was a big fat ZERO. No I didn't wear a mask around him, I actually passed high school.

    A big nothing burger. Everyday more and more news comes out how 100,000s (if not millions) already have antibodies. In northern France, in Florida, in New York, in California, in sporadic German towns.... The one guy who passed away from covid19 and gave me pause ended up being a diabetic (a 37 year old Brazilian jujitsu practitioner).

    After all if a fat body like Boris Johnson can make it (and also have a healthy baby boy born right after) so can the healthy and more wealthy portions of society. But lets all pretend that didn't happen and rush into MOP posture. QUICK! FULL RETARD MODE 1-2-3 GO!!!

    If you're masking chances are you don't know what you are doing.

    Speaking of gimmicks!!!!!

    DISCLAIMER LONG DRUNK VR/GAMES/MODAFINIL POST BELOW, ONLY CHADS WITH BALLS OF STEEL ALLOWED TO VIEW:



    So with all this free money Canada is throwing I finally got an Oculus Rift to try out Alyx and other VR crap. Couldn't justify wasting money unless someone was giving it to me and here we are. Being a 32 year old man gaming has taken a back seat as I don't have the time to pour 18 hours into Quake 3 like its 1999.

    Long story short VR is totally a gimmick. I have a pretty big place to run around (I set up a private gym in my basement big enough that one can jog in a circuit separate from the mat space for jujitsu & weights; "more than your own life can depend on your physical fitness" is a philosophy EVERYONE should live by) and even so it was not as physically demanding as I wanted. No rolls. No running. No jumps. Just slight walking and the occasional semi-crouch. I understand they make these things for people seated in small tiny Japanese-style closet apartments but I was hoping for options. Walk to a window in-game and BAM teleport outside of it. Gay-alert.

    For ~$1000 its not really worth it. VR was supposed to save gaming but I can't see how. Even after downing a bottle of Stolichnaya and doing a couple of rails I couldn't really get into it. I couldn't "suspend my disbelief" as they say.

    If I had to sum it up Alyx is just the combination of all the VR gimmicks on the market. Shoot people in the head by eyeing your shots (or throw bottles in the air and shoot them), swing objects like a flailing retard, throw and catch stuff with no skill (items MAGICALLY land in your hand when thrown at you), puzzles involving looking throughout the room in multiple vision modes tracing wires or sifting through junk for ammo..... Again, mildly amusing for 5 minutes until you realize you've done things in real life more entertaining... roughly 10 hours of gameplay with a half-way point that changes up the pace.

    Non-VR games::

    Bannerlord is alright, it still needs a couple of more years of development, so far its just Mount and Blade with graphical improvements and some minor additions but it is early access so all those beloved features will seep in slowly. Things like improving the AI and fleshing out features. Wait until 2021.
    Doom Eternal... *sigh* terrible, I remember the days when Id Software would rock the entire industry with new innovations. Now it's just another developer. I miss John Carmack, at least he would make his engine open source after a few years. Doom 2 > Doom Eternal by milestones. Doom Eternal felt like Painkiller (a 2013 Polish game). Go into a chamber, chamber locks, fight all the bad guys jumping around using character-based attributes, repeat.
    DBZ Kakarot.... this game is 20 years too late. I have no idea who would play it now when the market is flooded with such clones (perhaps not in the same IP as DBZ but the gameplay isn't unique). Nothing special.


    Modafinil:

    FINALLY I got my hand on Canadian made modafinil, two brands TEVA and AURO (instead of the Indian garbage online which is utter shit, all duds). Oh boy they weren't kidding. Modafinil at baseline (no alcohol or other drugs) is very subtle. Unlike amphetamines which is easily noticeable due to the mood elevation Modafinil is only noticeable when you stop working and catch yourself back at work again. I program in C++ (as a hobby) and I can say it is a programmers drug. Modafinil can be used to extend workouts too but its not as thermogenic as Ephedrine + Caffeine (now that shit will burn fat and suppress appetites like a motherfucker). I can see why it has replaced amphetamine-based "go" pills with the US Air Force. Pilots can be extended out on patrol for days with minimal sleep and no mood change (unlike amphetamines which at higher doses produce ungodly paranoia).

    So in conclusion Modafinil > VR. I would rather put a $1000 into modafinil then into virtual reality.

    Spice Melange over Thinking Machines.

    Time to see how well it stacks with phenlypiracetam and choline.


    I'm glad this lockdown hysteria is starting to ease up and life can get back to normal. Shit China closed down Hubei province ONLY and just limited unnecessary travel in other provinces (work is necessary so that did not stop). But the West went FULL RETARD and closed everything and I'm not sure why....


    Fucking Modafinil + booze, its 4AM and I feel like I can run a goddamn marathon.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You’re really wired, man (Dude)! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    Even better yet - for those of you out there that have a soft spot for heavies Led Zeppelin:

    https://youtu.be/BQIdjHcS4m4

    Listen to the entire album - still ahead of its time!

  37. @Mr. Hack
    @Max Payne

    You're really wired, man (Dude)! :-)

    https://youtu.be/uwHBtUIKV70

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Even better yet – for those of you out there that have a soft spot for heavies Led Zeppelin:

    Listen to the entire album – still ahead of its time!

  38. I’m confused by what “here” means in this sentence: “So I’m stopping my participation here until and unless they reverse their ban on sharing Unz Review articles.” You’re stopping your participation on the Unz site until Facebook changes something? Doesn’t seem logical.

  39. Zuck to Unz. I HEREBY BAN THEE. Face Book is a piece of shit. It’s a pity anybody has to be kicked out to get them them to stop going there.

  40. @Tusk
    I feel bad for the Zuccster since he's a nebbish and wimpy looking man so that's always going to be part of his character. I'm genuinely surprised Facebook is still a big thing and hasn't been out competed by culturally different models. It seems to me every choice FB makes worsens the platform to the point I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to that garbage just to stay in contact with acquaintances.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mikhail

    No need to feel sorry for the likes of Zuckerberg. Those earnest others with talent seeking a level playing field are the ones who (comparatively speaking) deserve compassion.

    Related to this thread, Adam Schiff (an older version of Zuck) very recently sent an open letter calling for the censorship:

    Prior to this latest development, Facebook, had some suspect aspects.

  41. @128
    When will they upgrade the Trans Siberian to a higher speed rail, even if HSR is not possible because it is too expensive, it is still possible to cut the journey time down to 90 hours from a week, like what the Chinese have done with their conventional rail.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Never, despite industry lobbying.

    Passenger rail competes with cross-country car trips, not airplanes. Saving hours and minutes is just not important compared to all the other variables.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @anonymous coward

    It depends on the distance. From 200 to 500 miles, a fast train outperfoms car and air for speed, particularly city centre to city centre business travel. Suburb to suburb and maybe the lower limit is 300 miles. Take a taxi and the cost of rail or air becomes very high. $10 oil is about to change all this.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  42. If we’re allowed to discuss the coronavirus situation here:

    Growth in infection today – a large part is driven from Moscow where we assumed plateau, but here I think it might be just be related to massive increase in testing in that city in recent days ( https://www.mos.ru/news/item/73504073 ).


    For the last 3 days data:

    Russian Federation
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 106498 | 114431 | 124054
    Growth: +7099 | +7933 | +9623
    Percent 7.14% | 7.45% | 8.41%

    Moscow
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 53739 |57300 |62658
    Growth: +3093 | +3561 |+5358
    Percent 6.11% | 6.63% | 9.35%

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    What about deaths increasing as well.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @SteveK9
    @Dmitry

    Infections everywhere are around 100X what is reported, since the majority don't even have symptoms. You can pay some attention to 'Covid Deaths' but even that is highly untrustworthy. If you had a 8 bypass surgeries, and died of a heart attack and happened to test positive, you are a 'Covid Death'. At this point in the US they are feverishly padding the numbers (now you don't even need a positive test, just similar symptoms), in order to justify the insane lockdown and the suspension of civil liberties, like the idiotic 2-meter rule, and bandito masks. You can trace the course of the epidemic to some extent in individual countries but trying to compare them is almost useless now.

  43. @Dmitry
    If we're allowed to discuss the coronavirus situation here:

    Growth in infection today - a large part is driven from Moscow where we assumed plateau, but here I think it might be just be related to massive increase in testing in that city in recent days ( https://www.mos.ru/news/item/73504073 ).

    -
    For the last 3 days data:

    Russian Federation
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 106498 | 114431 | 124054
    Growth: +7099 | +7933 | +9623
    Percent 7.14% | 7.45% | 8.41%


    Moscow
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 53739 |57300 |62658
    Growth: +3093 | +3561 |+5358
    Percent 6.11% | 6.63% | 9.35%


    -

    Replies: @Znzn, @SteveK9

    What about deaths increasing as well.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Znzn

    Here is case fatality rate in Russia until today (just around 1%).

    https://i.imgur.com/Ijvk7J2.png

    ^ However, it's better not to hope on this too much, as hospital deaths are often after weeks - and the epidemic is still comparatively recent in Russia. Community spread is only beginning sometime in second half of March (Russia is an early lockdown/self-isolation country, relative to the epidemic development*).

    -
    * Although - of course people a lot behaved better than in the UK - lockdown regime in Russia is not uniform and perfect.

    Here are photos of "stereotypically cultural people of Saint-Petersburg", trying to recreate Fast and Furious films during a pandemic.

    https://twitter.com/oldLentach/status/1256465353103814656

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

  44. @128
    @reiner Tor

    I just think white people countries have responded very incompetently.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Germany seems to have managed the first wave of the pandemic quite efficiently, and can already re-open. There it correlates a little to popular stereotypes about German intelligence, effective management, etc. Of Axis powers, only Italy really easily falls to coronavirus – which is what people would probably predict from traditional stereotypes.

    Sweden is just behaving with their Scandinavian eccentricity – it’s not exactly incompetence.

    Latin countries – fallen to the virus quite easily and disorganizedly, but can rely more on summer heat to ameliorate the epidemic in the next months.

    Balkan races (well they maybe more half-way to the Middle East and semi-brown)- have responded with all the expected peasant wisdom, and avoided the first wave of the epidemic.

    Great Britain is the one where it has broken all expectations in the wrong direction. One of the world’s most successful and capable countries, responding as one of the most incompetently. There is also the population actively undermining an extremely expensive lockdown, because of inability to delay gratification for a few weeks – which I would never have imagined from the good behaviour of the country in most other times.

  45. @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    What about deaths increasing as well.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Here is case fatality rate in Russia until today (just around 1%).

    ^ However, it’s better not to hope on this too much, as hospital deaths are often after weeks – and the epidemic is still comparatively recent in Russia. Community spread is only beginning sometime in second half of March (Russia is an early lockdown/self-isolation country, relative to the epidemic development*).


    * Although – of course people a lot behaved better than in the UK – lockdown regime in Russia is not uniform and perfect.

    Here are photos of “stereotypically cultural people of Saint-Petersburg”, trying to recreate Fast and Furious films during a pandemic.

    https://twitter.com/oldLentach/status/1256465353103814656

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    3 and 2 days ago the case numbers were 7099 and 7933, but asymptomatic cases were 40%I and 45% respectively. That is close to the same number of ill cases for both days.

    It is exactly the same for yesterday and today - 9600, asymptomatic 47% against 10600 ,asymptomatic of 50 % for today... so that is 5150 yesterday against 5300 new cases of ill people.

    Against 4300 new ill cases for 2 and 3 days ago that is a sizeable increase BUT this increase is because of increased testing in Moscow, the epicentre for this virus in RF, a place that until recently was having testing numbers only slightly above proportion its population share to the whole country.... not in proportion to its share of coronavirus cases which the newer testing numbers are closer to. Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no showing steady but not disturbing increases.... then I think you have a situation, mostly, under control.

    Most importantly, deaths, though tragic, are still relatively low (something for the whole world to envy) and are plateuing where the case numbers aren't, particularly in Moscow.

    For 2 of the last 10 days it has got to around 100,but the other 8 days- 50-60.

    Spain and Germany coming out of lockdown are having far more deaths during recent days than Russia is having now!

    1700 recoveries, yesterday , with only 600 from Moscow is actually excellent news. It is a higher number of recoveries than in Italy today
    despite both countries having about 100000 active cases and Italy being a month longer into the crisis. I can't think why a minority of the recoveries are in Moscow - but it is very good news if expecting Moscow to slowdown and other regions to go up in coronavirus cases

    Replies: @Dmitry

  46. So I searched comments for words “opec” and “oil”. Found 1 mention of “oil”, in the context of imaginary US war with Iran. Moving on.

  47. @Anatoly Karlin
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1256377075713310727

    Replies: @Philip Owen

    Already there https://vk.com/id237250008 . Hardly use it. No mad Brexiters to fight with. No, that’s Twitter. FB is friends and family only anyway.

  48. @anonymous coward
    @128

    Never, despite industry lobbying.

    Passenger rail competes with cross-country car trips, not airplanes. Saving hours and minutes is just not important compared to all the other variables.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

    It depends on the distance. From 200 to 500 miles, a fast train outperfoms car and air for speed, particularly city centre to city centre business travel. Suburb to suburb and maybe the lower limit is 300 miles. Take a taxi and the cost of rail or air becomes very high. $10 oil is about to change all this.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Philip Owen

    You didn't read my post.

    For people doing cross-country car trips, the idea of getting to the destination four hours earlier just doesn't figure into the equation. Of all the considerations that go into planning a cross-country car trip this one is perhaps the least important. (Of course I'm talking about real countries where this is even possible - USA, Russia, China.)

    Same deal with trains. When I'm traveling with three kids and lots of baggage, a working USB socket and Wi-Fi is vastly more important than saving an hour or five.

  49. UK says:

    This website got banned the same day as David Icke. It was swept up in a mass banning of sites that host ludicrous conspiracy theory nonsense. The rest of the content is merely attached.

    Your writing speaks for itself (in a good way – except on Covid, where your panties are twisted like the Gordian Knot), no need for the narcissistic cope of pretending that you were singled out for being especially dangerous or some other fantasy.

  50. Facebook recently banned some people for posting pictures of English flags on St. George’s Day.

    For my part, I tend to believe the rumor that Zuck asked Xi to name his child, but Xi declined.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @songbird

    "Mark, please listen carefully because this is extremely important to our relationship. I would like you to name your first son Adolf. Adolf Hitler Zuckerberg. May our friendship ever grow stronger, like a bundle of entwined branches. Yours in sincerity and long live the revolution."

    , @Just Passing Through
    @songbird

    Facebook later unbanned them, citing a glitch in the algorithm. I would not be surprised if what really happened was that the algorithm only intended to put them on a 'watchlist' but banned them by mistake instead.

  51. @128
    With all due respect, considering that the Unz Review is hosting a whole bunch of its just the flu people, and kill the old and obese for the economy people, maybe this is a good thing?

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    Yes, we don’t want to confuse “scientific truth” by introducing alternative views of what might really be at play.

  52. @Anon 2
    There is a sense that Americans are starting to celebrate - at least
    those living in the states that have already re-opened or will re-open
    May 4, which are mostly conservative Southern and Midwestern
    states. The sense of elation is palpable, and reminds me of the
    quiet sense of elation and disbelief on the morning after Trump
    was elected president. I travel a lot and happened to be in the
    Midwest when it happened.

    As it is, medically the U.S. has weathered the pandemic quite well.
    200 fatalities per million is much lower than the rates in W. Europe.
    Considering that 40-50% of the Covid fatalities have occurred in
    the New York City tri-state area where 18 million people are
    packed like sardines into a small terrirory, the rate for (USA minus NYC)
    is probably closer to 100 deaths per 1M, which is reasonable during
    a pandemic. And who cares about New York anyway? It was an ecological
    disaster waiting to happen. At least that’s how many conservatives think.
    In other words, New York had it coming.

    The American Way of Life, a phrase you don’t hear very often anymore,
    provides at least two advantages during a pandemic, (1) low population
    density as people often live on half-acre plots in the suburbs, (2) low use
    of public transportation. Thus social distancing is built into the American
    Way of Life. Of course, it’ll be difficult for the U.S. to approach the
    rates in Central Europe (or Eastern Europe so far), where Poland, for
    example, has had only 17 fatalities per 1 M. Poland was largely spared
    during the Black Death ca. 1350, and I was convinced Poland would be
    spared again, and this is turning out to be correct.

    Replies: @128, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo

    The stats for Florida, AKA God’s waiting room, suggest an excess death rate approaching zero.

  53. @128
    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @dfordoom, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo, @G. Poulin

    That’s just sad, dude. Do you really want to live in a world deprived of millions of views like this?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @The Alarmist

    Prepackaged travel experiences are fake and gay.

    Example: the White Sea is really more beautiful than any 'tropical paradise' travel destination, but good luck getting there or even knowing that it exists.

  54. I didn’t even know that this was on Facebook, but by now one would think that people will know that anything on international jew owned sites (Facebook, Google, Twitter, Pinterest, Youtube, an so on) will be censored.

  55. American lawlessness in California. Lol the air force need to bomb this area with napalm.

    https://twitter.com/realYDB/status/1256309898062647296

    • Replies: @128
    @Dmitry

    Why do you hate freedom?

  56. Americans need to hope that warmer (higher absolute humid air) and UV of California, reduce transmission in such open-air “events”. Otherwise, someone is going to win a lot of Darwin awards.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Dmitry

    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu. Why do you assume that congregating is dangerous for the rest of us?

    Apparently it is still the case that just repeating something ad nauseam is enough to get most people assuming that it must be true. Every government and corporate and media email and website refer ominously and dramatically to “The Age of COVID-19” without any reliable numbers on fatality rate for non-elderly people who actually tested positive for this virus and did not have a major comorbidity.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @anonymous coward

  57. china-russia-all-the-way says:
    @Digital Samizdat
    @128

    IIRC, China only locked down Hubei Province (where Wuhan is located), which is just one of the country's 34 provinces. I believe there were some travel restrictions for a time in the provinces surrounding Hubei, but no real lockdown elsewhere in the country.

    Maybe that's why China still has a functional economy after 'the plague'?

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @yakushimaru, @Anonymous (n)

    There may not have been an official lockdown in every part of China but the fear of the virus was universal and people stayed inside like a lockdown was imposed. From the start of the lockdown in Wuhan to the end of February, the streets were nearly deserted and it looked like a relatively air tight lockdown was in place even when it was possible to roam around freely and go to the few non-essential businesses that had stayed open despite lack of customers. This weekend is the middle of a 5-day May Day weekend and while foot and car traffic in city centers appears to be normal and has been for while, people are not returning to tourism. Mask wearing outside is about 100%. Many workplaces are still largely empty because workers continue to work from home. The fear is still there.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  58. @Digital Samizdat
    @128

    IIRC, China only locked down Hubei Province (where Wuhan is located), which is just one of the country's 34 provinces. I believe there were some travel restrictions for a time in the provinces surrounding Hubei, but no real lockdown elsewhere in the country.

    Maybe that's why China still has a functional economy after 'the plague'?

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @yakushimaru, @Anonymous (n)

    We were all scared chickens. When government said “Virus”, we all just hid in our home. There’s no need for government to say “Lockdown”. It just happened. Except maybe a handful in a country of a billion who needed “help” from police.

    There’s really a difference between peoples. But I don’t think it’s because of some deep history or genetics, but rather, different people having different assumptions about their governments, and other simple reasons.

    1. At the time we did not know that it mainly hit the old and unhealthy. Of course you were scared.

    2. Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it’s really, really bad.

    3. I do think that somehow we love our elders more. Maybe it is because the family structures, and economic reasons too. Deep history probably plays a role as well.

    4. I think everybody implicitly understands that there never is a choice between economy and health. Somehow westerners think there is a choice is quite a surprise. How is it possible to have a normal run economy when there is a virus out there? Oh, yes, maybe it is just the flu. Or maybe it only kills orientals.

    5. I also think that most Chinese believed, from the beginning, that the virus will be done with after a few weeks. It is a surprise that it hit the world after it’s largely over in China (future is uncertain, though). The experience in HK and Singapore, even Korea, all suggest that it can be done with in at most two months. It means that any economic pain will be over soon. This belief, of course, is no more.

    6. There is no pressure from the people for religious gatherings. And, in rural areas, government has that kind of authority, not exactly spiritual, but I am not talking about police authority. I guess I am talking about the simple fact that there is no other political or spiritual organizations.

    7. And science weighs more on Chinese minds, believe it or not. Probably because of the history of recent 200 years. Or, maybe I should say, pragmatism.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @yakushimaru


    science weighs more on Chinese minds,
     
    The reason will probably be because China still has a nominally Marxism-Leninism state ideology. Marxism-Leninism is an Enlightenment ideology, which worships science and technology, and elevates these to the state religion.

    In the USSR, this resulted in the greatest technical education in the world, for those youth with any talents for such professions. However, this can be fragile - you only have to see how badly technical education levels have declined now in capitalist Russia/Ukraine, within just a few decades since a collapse of the official ideology in a country which had deliberately and carefully created such a high level over many years.

    , @inertial
    @yakushimaru


    Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it’s really, really bad.
     
    I suspect this is the main thing. It was in the old USSR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  59. @songbird
    Facebook recently banned some people for posting pictures of English flags on St. George's Day.

    For my part, I tend to believe the rumor that Zuck asked Xi to name his child, but Xi declined.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Just Passing Through

    “Mark, please listen carefully because this is extremely important to our relationship. I would like you to name your first son Adolf. Adolf Hitler Zuckerberg. May our friendship ever grow stronger, like a bundle of entwined branches. Yours in sincerity and long live the revolution.”

    • LOL: songbird, reiner Tor
  60. @128
    Unless you are looking at a news source from planet Neptune (and how cool is that?) every city in China over 100,000 carried out tight movement restrictions, I am less sure whether your rural hamlet of a few hundred people also had lockdowns or restricted entry and exit, but it seems that they did also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_lockdown_in_Hubei

    Replies: @yakushimaru

    every city in China over 100,000 carried out tight movement restrictions

    … that it is possible is because Chinese people cooperated.

    • Replies: @128
    @yakushimaru

    How much of that cooperation was voluntary or "voluntary"? But yes in a shame based culture it is easier to get compliance of these things through social pressure, in a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period for when your parents and grandparents died, back in the days. When you were supposed to abstain from sex, alcohol, meat, banquets, or other joyous activities, even Imperial Chancellors were supposed to resign from their jobs for 27 months as part of the mourning ritual.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @yakushimaru

  61. >actually believing Durov is not cooperating with FSBKGB
    >thinking cooperating with FSBKGB in 2020 is somehow bad

  62. @yakushimaru
    @Digital Samizdat

    We were all scared chickens. When government said "Virus", we all just hid in our home. There's no need for government to say "Lockdown". It just happened. Except maybe a handful in a country of a billion who needed "help" from police.

    There's really a difference between peoples. But I don't think it's because of some deep history or genetics, but rather, different people having different assumptions about their governments, and other simple reasons.

    1. At the time we did not know that it mainly hit the old and unhealthy. Of course you were scared.

    2. Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it's really, really bad.

    3. I do think that somehow we love our elders more. Maybe it is because the family structures, and economic reasons too. Deep history probably plays a role as well.

    4. I think everybody implicitly understands that there never is a choice between economy and health. Somehow westerners think there is a choice is quite a surprise. How is it possible to have a normal run economy when there is a virus out there? Oh, yes, maybe it is just the flu. Or maybe it only kills orientals.

    5. I also think that most Chinese believed, from the beginning, that the virus will be done with after a few weeks. It is a surprise that it hit the world after it's largely over in China (future is uncertain, though). The experience in HK and Singapore, even Korea, all suggest that it can be done with in at most two months. It means that any economic pain will be over soon. This belief, of course, is no more.

    6. There is no pressure from the people for religious gatherings. And, in rural areas, government has that kind of authority, not exactly spiritual, but I am not talking about police authority. I guess I am talking about the simple fact that there is no other political or spiritual organizations.

    7. And science weighs more on Chinese minds, believe it or not. Probably because of the history of recent 200 years. Or, maybe I should say, pragmatism.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @inertial

    science weighs more on Chinese minds,

    The reason will probably be because China still has a nominally Marxism-Leninism state ideology. Marxism-Leninism is an Enlightenment ideology, which worships science and technology, and elevates these to the state religion.

    In the USSR, this resulted in the greatest technical education in the world, for those youth with any talents for such professions. However, this can be fragile – you only have to see how badly technical education levels have declined now in capitalist Russia/Ukraine, within just a few decades since a collapse of the official ideology in a country which had deliberately and carefully created such a high level over many years.

  63. @yakushimaru
    @dfordoom

    When you have a virus out there, you wouldn't get too much tourism going even if the government is encouraging it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    When you have a virus out there, you wouldn’t get too much tourism going even if the government is encouraging it.

    Of course.

    But I get the feeling that there are quite a few people who would be quite happy to see tourism and air travel permanently eliminated. And I suspect they’d be quite happy with the consequences reiner Tor has mentioned – such as no more restaurants.

    What worries me is the emergence of an increasingly puritanical killjoy attitude on the far right. I get the impression that some alt-righters would like us all to live as small farmers in log cabins in the woods, with lots of guns of course. They hate the modern world (which is understandable in some ways) but they want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    There are lots of things that are unnecessary. Tourism is unnecessary. Restaurants are unnecessary. Going to the beach is unnecessary. Playing golf is unnecessary. Going to football matches is unnecessary. Going to the cinema is unnecessary.

    But it’s the unnecessary things that make life worth living.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  64. Thomm says:

    Frankly, this merely reveals that RUnzie Baby is doing an extremely poor job of the task he has been assigned.

    Here is a list of the Top 10 Jews who have infiltrated the White Nationalist movement for the purpose of sowing confusion. Ron Unz could not even crack the Top 10 :

    https://christiansfortruth.com/jews-are-leading-the-alt-right-white-nationalist-movements/

    This, despite this activity being RUnzie Baby’s full-time job, as assigned to him by Jewish Central Command.

    No wonder Zuck pulled the plug on RUnzie Baby (despite them being neighbors in Palo Alto). Zuck has effectively been directed to bestow his substantial resources and platform to Jews more equal to the task.

    • Replies: @Exile
    @Thomm

    Since your link slags everyone from Anglin to Enoch to Southern to Moly, can we have a list of "who isn't a ZOG agent" in your opinion, just for comparison?

    Replies: @anonymous without number

  65. to the rather more realistic/alarmist (cross out as per your preferences) coverage produced by Steve Sailer, Ron Unz, and yours truly.

    If you don’t stop it at the beginning, you just gotta weather the storm. Like Clemenza said.

    As for Facebook, it should be called Defacebook as it defaces all honest debate.

  66. @Digital Samizdat
    @128

    IIRC, China only locked down Hubei Province (where Wuhan is located), which is just one of the country's 34 provinces. I believe there were some travel restrictions for a time in the provinces surrounding Hubei, but no real lockdown elsewhere in the country.

    Maybe that's why China still has a functional economy after 'the plague'?

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way, @yakushimaru, @Anonymous (n)

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a “lockdown” anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu’er so not sure why I even bother.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @inertial
    @Anonymous (n)

    So Chinese people live in something called "housing complexes" where the government can control ingress and egress? Very interesting. And how exactly can something like that be implemented in the conditions of the typical American sprawl?

    Replies: @Anonymous (n), @yakushimaru

    , @utu
    @Anonymous (n)

    "...more incompetent than many third world nations...". - Keep in mind that many third world nations have much younger populations. Median age: 19.7 Africa, 25.7 Philippines, 30.5 Vietnam, 31 South America, 42.5 Europe, 44.9 Spain, 45.4 Italy. Their effective IFR will be much lower than that of European countries.

    https://i.ibb.co/G0bBt5p/IFR-Italy.png

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @yakushimaru
    @Anonymous (n)


    the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a “lockdown” anyway
     
    Many family meetings were cancelled. On the "office" business side, yes. But the Spring Festival was more dangerous actually, in terms of this virus spreading, because of families getting together and usually it was a big time for restaurants.
    , @128
    @Anonymous (n)

    You know that it is pretty easy to do that with universal tracking through smartphones, CCTVs everywhere with facial recognition, and the power of big data right?

  67. @Anonymous (n)
    @Digital Samizdat

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a "lockdown" anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu'er so not sure why I even bother.

    Replies: @inertial, @utu, @yakushimaru, @128

    So Chinese people live in something called “housing complexes” where the government can control ingress and egress? Very interesting. And how exactly can something like that be implemented in the conditions of the typical American sprawl?

    • Replies: @Anonymous (n)
    @inertial

    I have no idea how Chinese law works in this regard, all I know is that residential complexes during the outbreak had/have a lot of power to self police entry and exit. Whether these are temporary powers granted during a national emergency or the way it has always been I don't know. What I can tell you is that Chinese residential complexes or even individual apartment buildings mostly have 24 hour security and it is these security guards who enforce the regulations I spoke about, not the police.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @inertial, @yarro

    , @yakushimaru
    @inertial

    Any large scale "lockdown" will have to depend on the population's cooperation. This simply cannot be something dealing with technicalities, legalistic or otherwise. (Best Korea notwithstanding. We are talking about a sudden change after all.)

    It is comparable to a country going to war. You would want, say, bipartisan support of it.

    Replies: @inertial

  68. @yakushimaru
    @Digital Samizdat

    We were all scared chickens. When government said "Virus", we all just hid in our home. There's no need for government to say "Lockdown". It just happened. Except maybe a handful in a country of a billion who needed "help" from police.

    There's really a difference between peoples. But I don't think it's because of some deep history or genetics, but rather, different people having different assumptions about their governments, and other simple reasons.

    1. At the time we did not know that it mainly hit the old and unhealthy. Of course you were scared.

    2. Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it's really, really bad.

    3. I do think that somehow we love our elders more. Maybe it is because the family structures, and economic reasons too. Deep history probably plays a role as well.

    4. I think everybody implicitly understands that there never is a choice between economy and health. Somehow westerners think there is a choice is quite a surprise. How is it possible to have a normal run economy when there is a virus out there? Oh, yes, maybe it is just the flu. Or maybe it only kills orientals.

    5. I also think that most Chinese believed, from the beginning, that the virus will be done with after a few weeks. It is a surprise that it hit the world after it's largely over in China (future is uncertain, though). The experience in HK and Singapore, even Korea, all suggest that it can be done with in at most two months. It means that any economic pain will be over soon. This belief, of course, is no more.

    6. There is no pressure from the people for religious gatherings. And, in rural areas, government has that kind of authority, not exactly spiritual, but I am not talking about police authority. I guess I am talking about the simple fact that there is no other political or spiritual organizations.

    7. And science weighs more on Chinese minds, believe it or not. Probably because of the history of recent 200 years. Or, maybe I should say, pragmatism.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @inertial

    Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it’s really, really bad.

    I suspect this is the main thing. It was in the old USSR.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    The Western population in contrast believes what the government tells them. And the government told them not to worry, that they are well prepared, that masks don’t work, that herd immunity is the way to go, etc. With such “leadership,” East Asia couldn’t have handled it either.

    And regarding the Chinese population assuming truth to be way worse than what the government tells them: it only worked because this time, after some initial coverup, the government told them the truth. After January 23, people were told the truth about the virus, even if the numbers of deaths and infections were probably doctored. But what they said about the dangers and the contagiousness or the severity of the measures needed to stop it etc. were all true.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @Dmitry

  69. @inertial
    @Anonymous (n)

    So Chinese people live in something called "housing complexes" where the government can control ingress and egress? Very interesting. And how exactly can something like that be implemented in the conditions of the typical American sprawl?

    Replies: @Anonymous (n), @yakushimaru

    I have no idea how Chinese law works in this regard, all I know is that residential complexes during the outbreak had/have a lot of power to self police entry and exit. Whether these are temporary powers granted during a national emergency or the way it has always been I don’t know. What I can tell you is that Chinese residential complexes or even individual apartment buildings mostly have 24 hour security and it is these security guards who enforce the regulations I spoke about, not the police.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Anonymous (n)

    You are smart.
    Please post more.
    I'll post less.
    To improve standards.
    Thanks.

    , @inertial
    @Anonymous (n)

    Now that you mention it, I remember seeing this in someone's China photo travelogue (Carl Zha's?) There are these buildings with a wall around them and guards who only let in local residents with passes. Such arrangements exist in America, too. Here, they are called "gated communities" and are generally located near or inside ghettos.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @yarro
    @Anonymous (n)

    In China, as well as in Hong Kong and Korea, the vast majority lives in housing estates, which consist of several high rises sharing common facilities such as a pool, parking podium, shopping mall... (Japan is different because of historically earlier urbanization, diffuse land ownership and lack of strong eminent domain law due to American occupation-era laws after 1945, also earthquakes made high rises uneconomical until recently.) These always have human-staffed, controlled entry at some point, whether for the entire complex or the individual buildings. In our complex in Hong Kong (on the island, middle class), we had: six x 25 story towers, three means of entry into the complex (one car, two pedestrian), key card controlled at night, open in the daytime except for cars. Doorman at every building, would open the door for you if he recognized you. Cameras everywhere. And it felt normal and fine. Except for the thought that, in an instant, all the residents can be locked down with minimal effort.

  70. @128
    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @dfordoom, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo, @G. Poulin

    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?

    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.

    • LOL: reiner Tor, Yevardian
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Dumbo



    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.
     
    Whenever I see national parks I always ask myself, are all those trees really necessary? Couldn't we just digitise them? I'm sure there are plenty of videos of trees on youtube. Forests look kinda dangerous to me. Aren't there bears and stuff in forests? There's really no need for people to ever leave their homes. If you can order home delivery pizza online and you have wifi you can have all the friends you need on social media and if you have pornhub as well you don't ever need to leave Mom's basement.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.
     
    It's very much like the postmodernists' idea of hyper-reality. There's no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it's real. Actual reality doesn't exist.

    Replies: @another anon, @IYI

  71. @Thomm
    Frankly, this merely reveals that RUnzie Baby is doing an extremely poor job of the task he has been assigned.

    Here is a list of the Top 10 Jews who have infiltrated the White Nationalist movement for the purpose of sowing confusion. Ron Unz could not even crack the Top 10 :

    https://christiansfortruth.com/jews-are-leading-the-alt-right-white-nationalist-movements/

    This, despite this activity being RUnzie Baby's full-time job, as assigned to him by Jewish Central Command.

    No wonder Zuck pulled the plug on RUnzie Baby (despite them being neighbors in Palo Alto). Zuck has effectively been directed to bestow his substantial resources and platform to Jews more equal to the task.

    Replies: @Exile

    Since your link slags everyone from Anglin to Enoch to Southern to Moly, can we have a list of “who isn’t a ZOG agent” in your opinion, just for comparison?

    • Replies: @anonymous without number
    @Exile


    Since your link slags everyone from Anglin to Enoch to Southern to Moly, can we have a list of “who isn’t a ZOG agent” in your opinion, just for comparison?
     
    Good question with easy answer.

    If you promote rape, violence, race mixing, whoremongering, porn, anime, "pick-up art", MGTOW and other forms of faggotry and degeneracy you are ZOG agent, regardless whether you are paid or not.

    If you promote loving and harmonious White families, you are true defender of White people.
  72. Dumbo says:
    @Anon 2
    There is a sense that Americans are starting to celebrate - at least
    those living in the states that have already re-opened or will re-open
    May 4, which are mostly conservative Southern and Midwestern
    states. The sense of elation is palpable, and reminds me of the
    quiet sense of elation and disbelief on the morning after Trump
    was elected president. I travel a lot and happened to be in the
    Midwest when it happened.

    As it is, medically the U.S. has weathered the pandemic quite well.
    200 fatalities per million is much lower than the rates in W. Europe.
    Considering that 40-50% of the Covid fatalities have occurred in
    the New York City tri-state area where 18 million people are
    packed like sardines into a small terrirory, the rate for (USA minus NYC)
    is probably closer to 100 deaths per 1M, which is reasonable during
    a pandemic. And who cares about New York anyway? It was an ecological
    disaster waiting to happen. At least that’s how many conservatives think.
    In other words, New York had it coming.

    The American Way of Life, a phrase you don’t hear very often anymore,
    provides at least two advantages during a pandemic, (1) low population
    density as people often live on half-acre plots in the suburbs, (2) low use
    of public transportation. Thus social distancing is built into the American
    Way of Life. Of course, it’ll be difficult for the U.S. to approach the
    rates in Central Europe (or Eastern Europe so far), where Poland, for
    example, has had only 17 fatalities per 1 M. Poland was largely spared
    during the Black Death ca. 1350, and I was convinced Poland would be
    spared again, and this is turning out to be correct.

    Replies: @128, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo

    American “Conservatives” are retarded. As someone said, they couldn’t even conserve the bathroom.

    This “pandemic” is mostly a stupid hoax, and the “American way of life” is swallowing it.

    Also, there’s nothing particularly “American” about living in the country or in small towns, it’s how people have lived for thousands of years. It’s today huge modern cities such as NY or London which are unnatural.

  73. @Philip Owen
    @anonymous coward

    It depends on the distance. From 200 to 500 miles, a fast train outperfoms car and air for speed, particularly city centre to city centre business travel. Suburb to suburb and maybe the lower limit is 300 miles. Take a taxi and the cost of rail or air becomes very high. $10 oil is about to change all this.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    You didn’t read my post.

    For people doing cross-country car trips, the idea of getting to the destination four hours earlier just doesn’t figure into the equation. Of all the considerations that go into planning a cross-country car trip this one is perhaps the least important. (Of course I’m talking about real countries where this is even possible – USA, Russia, China.)

    Same deal with trains. When I’m traveling with three kids and lots of baggage, a working USB socket and Wi-Fi is vastly more important than saving an hour or five.

  74. @The Alarmist
    @128

    That's just sad, dude. Do you really want to live in a world deprived of millions of views like this?

    https://www.eyesighthawaii.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/AdobeStock_79367633.jpeg

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Prepackaged travel experiences are fake and gay.

    Example: the White Sea is really more beautiful than any ‘tropical paradise’ travel destination, but good luck getting there or even knowing that it exists.

  75. utu says:
    @Anonymous (n)
    @Digital Samizdat

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a "lockdown" anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu'er so not sure why I even bother.

    Replies: @inertial, @utu, @yakushimaru, @128

    “…more incompetent than many third world nations…”. – Keep in mind that many third world nations have much younger populations. Median age: 19.7 Africa, 25.7 Philippines, 30.5 Vietnam, 31 South America, 42.5 Europe, 44.9 Spain, 45.4 Italy. Their effective IFR will be much lower than that of European countries.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry, @dfordoom

  76. @Anonymous (n)
    @Digital Samizdat

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a "lockdown" anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu'er so not sure why I even bother.

    Replies: @inertial, @utu, @yakushimaru, @128

    the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a “lockdown” anyway

    Many family meetings were cancelled. On the “office” business side, yes. But the Spring Festival was more dangerous actually, in terms of this virus spreading, because of families getting together and usually it was a big time for restaurants.

  77. @inertial
    @Anonymous (n)

    So Chinese people live in something called "housing complexes" where the government can control ingress and egress? Very interesting. And how exactly can something like that be implemented in the conditions of the typical American sprawl?

    Replies: @Anonymous (n), @yakushimaru

    Any large scale “lockdown” will have to depend on the population’s cooperation. This simply cannot be something dealing with technicalities, legalistic or otherwise. (Best Korea notwithstanding. We are talking about a sudden change after all.)

    It is comparable to a country going to war. You would want, say, bipartisan support of it.

    • Replies: @inertial
    @yakushimaru

    Chinese need "cooperation" because they live in each other's hair. Americans are plenty isolated as it is. Live in single family houses, drive cars everywhere... There are many cases in America now but they seem to be concentrated in pretty specific places.

    https://twitter.com/ginasue/status/1255847979740794885

    Regular people don't see much of this. Take me as an example. I don't even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @Erik Sieven

  78. @inertial
    @yakushimaru


    Chinese usually took bad news from government very seriously because it was assumed that government would not want to give out bad news unless it’s really, really bad.
     
    I suspect this is the main thing. It was in the old USSR.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The Western population in contrast believes what the government tells them. And the government told them not to worry, that they are well prepared, that masks don’t work, that herd immunity is the way to go, etc. With such “leadership,” East Asia couldn’t have handled it either.

    And regarding the Chinese population assuming truth to be way worse than what the government tells them: it only worked because this time, after some initial coverup, the government told them the truth. After January 23, people were told the truth about the virus, even if the numbers of deaths and infections were probably doctored. But what they said about the dangers and the contagiousness or the severity of the measures needed to stop it etc. were all true.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @reiner Tor

    It rather seems the opposite. Western people trust their scandal mongering media and their power and fame hungry "experts" more than they trust politicians. The politicians freaked out under pressure and reversed course - and then of course a lot of them realized that this is a great opportunity for a power grab. The result is the greatest mass hysteria in history over a simple flu.

    Oh and btw hi everyone. I missed some time arguing against the lockdowns because I had to deal with a mess (related to lockdowns) and then I got sick. Yes I do think I was blessed by lady corona-chan, though I'll have to take some antibody test to verify that I'm indeed one of the sainted survivors who can demand sympathy with the authority of scientific proof.

    The symptoms match but then they match with any flu, except for the loss of sense of taste and some mild symptoms lingering on even a week after the fever is gone. Meanwhile the median age of people dead of corona here is 84 ie. people who have reached the age where dying of flu is basically a natural death. I have been staying inside, following the stupid orders of the stupid government, but it all makes me feel really stupid when it's totally obvious now that the "herd immunity" plan was correct and that we should have just continued life as normal without worrying about getting this disease.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    government told them not to worry

     

    For Great Britain, this was true about their government for some time in early March, when Boris Johnson was saying "wash your hands and sing happy birthday". However, very rapidly, there was a reverse, and the government has ordered extremely expensive lockdown, which is closing the economy.

    The problem is that for more than a month has been a certain type of disobedience of the population, which undermined the anti-epidemic effectiveness of lockdown, while still allowing its anti-economic effects fully.

    So, population seems to believe "it's good to do free activities like walking outside in the streets in large groups or visiting friends' home to watch DVDs" - i.e. activities which continue the epidemic, while not contributing to the economy. However, activities which can cost money (i.e. help the economy), like to go to takeaway restaurants, or sit in an outdoor cafe - are banned.

    If the people had been just provided adequate PPE and had been a bit more intelligent, and government added some military quarantines of infected areas - they could have maintained open maybe even most of the economy all these weeks.

    Replies: @128

  79. @utu
    @Anonymous (n)

    "...more incompetent than many third world nations...". - Keep in mind that many third world nations have much younger populations. Median age: 19.7 Africa, 25.7 Philippines, 30.5 Vietnam, 31 South America, 42.5 Europe, 44.9 Spain, 45.4 Italy. Their effective IFR will be much lower than that of European countries.

    https://i.ibb.co/G0bBt5p/IFR-Italy.png

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    • Replies: @utu
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, they controlled it better. Still because of the demographics Vietnam mortality would be 3 times lower than in Europe for the same number of infected.

    Vietnam has 7.2% population above 65 years old while France 19.7%, Germany 21.5%, Italy 23%.

    Replies: @128

    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    It's not quite a fair comparison, as Vietnam has such a tropical climate, so outdoor airborne infectivity of the virus will probably be lower for a much larger time of the year (compared to European countries, where airborne infectivity will likely be higher for more months in each year).

    A more unlikely comparison in Europe, is why all of the Balkan races have been more successful in avoiding the first wave of the pandemic, than all of the Latin ones? Balkan and Latin people have the same Southern European climate and culture, lifestyle, diet, demographic profile, racial similarity, and some (i.e. Croatia, Greece, Bulgaria) are even members of the European Union - so labour movement can be high between Latin and Balkan states.

    I assume here is just simple differences of political culture in the Latin and Balkan worldview, which resulted in different top down decisions and results which no epidemiologist could predict.

    Replies: @128

    , @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.
     
    Competent government with very limited resources is better than incompetent government with unlimited resources.
  80. 128 says:
    @yakushimaru
    @128


    every city in China over 100,000 carried out tight movement restrictions
     
    ... that it is possible is because Chinese people cooperated.

    Replies: @128

    How much of that cooperation was voluntary or “voluntary”? But yes in a shame based culture it is easier to get compliance of these things through social pressure, in a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period for when your parents and grandparents died, back in the days. When you were supposed to abstain from sex, alcohol, meat, banquets, or other joyous activities, even Imperial Chancellors were supposed to resign from their jobs for 27 months as part of the mourning ritual.

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
    @128


    voluntary or “voluntary”
     
    You can only have so many polices. You only have so much money to pay the loyals. And the police need resources to do their job. More resources if the jobs are more difficult. Etc.

    Large sudden change to society is impossible if most are against. Look at Iraq during the decade after Sadam was killed, USA had an army there, and huge amount of money to support local friendlies.

    a shame based culture
     
    This point is throw around casually. But, frankly, I am not sure about the exact meaning of it. Maybe it is because most of the time I tend to have a microeconomic, game theoretic view of human nature.

    In anycase, if it is not for the fact that the virus is spreading in the world, SARS 2 at this point could have been just a repeat of SARS 1. By which I mean that the actions by the Chinese government and Chinese people were not irrational or harmful that they need to be forced somehow.

    Replies: @128

    , @yakushimaru
    @128


    a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period
     
    You know, the Cathoics have the confessions. It is not strange to you I suppose, but it actually is quite strange. Maoist China had public self critique or humiliation, indeed. Just disgusting. Of course the two are different in essence and in form. My point is, of course, not to have a boyish playground verbal fight. Rather, I think it usually is a mistake to get to too deep an interpretation instead of having simple reasonings if possible. Chinese, deep down, are not very mystique.

    Replies: @128

  81. @Dmitry
    American lawlessness in California. Lol the air force need to bomb this area with napalm.

    https://twitter.com/BrutumF/status/1256623542264725504

    https://twitter.com/realYDB/status/1256309898062647296

    Replies: @128

    Why do you hate freedom?

  82. @adreadline

    I would further note that the only columnist here who energetically propounded a theory that turned out to be wrong, and kept doing so long after it became obvious to everyone but the most obstinate, no longer seems to be reprinted here.
     
    That was quick to be proven wrong. I'll just wonder aloud if him ceasing being reprinted had anything to do with it, or if he admitted his hypothesis is conclusively bunk as of now. One apparently simply doesn't concede he was full of shit. Some ideas: he could argue that in fact, the Asian percentage of the population in the US, or in NYC, is much higher than reported (secret Asians) or that moribund Chinese and other Asians are coming to the US just to add to the Wuflu case and death count (death tourism), or simply that most of the million diagnosed American cases (and the deaths) are misatributted or fake (easiest one), or all of the above, or something.

    And Mr. Karlin need not worry about catching Corona-chan. I have it in good authority (someone on the internet told me, forgot whom) it only affects 5'6'' feminist betas with gynecomastia and low muscle tone.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @MEH 0910, @David, @Fran Macadam

    • Thanks: adreadline
  83. @Anonymous (n)
    @Digital Samizdat

    Absolutely wrong. First of all the outbreak in China coincided with Chinese New Year celebrations during which the entire country was in an economic hibernation not too dissimilar to a "lockdown" anyway and which was then extended by several weeks until the pandemic had mostly burned itself out. In addition, local lockdowns were prevalent all across China and affected virtually every major city. My friends living in Shanghai and Guangzhou reported extremely stringent safety measures being enforced both on the local authority level and the individual housing/business level. You had to have your temperature taken upon both leaving and entering your housing complex and then again before entering businesses. Had to wear mask outdoors or be arrested by police. Could not bring visitors to your housing complex under any circumstances. Etc.

    The way China was able to suppress the pandemic even once it had infected tens of thousands and created multiple epicenters was absolutely stunning in scope and thoroughness. The fact they are our rival and perhaps outright enemy should not prevent us from acknowledging the sheer power and competence they displayed during their outbreak, especially as we witness how the Western world has handled the issue even with a massive head start. With that said, the pozzed West has proven more incompetent than many third world nations so perhaps that is not the yardstick against which the Chinese response should be measured lol. But then I am replying to a just-a-flu'er so not sure why I even bother.

    Replies: @inertial, @utu, @yakushimaru, @128

    You know that it is pretty easy to do that with universal tracking through smartphones, CCTVs everywhere with facial recognition, and the power of big data right?

  84. UK says:
    @dfordoom
    @128


    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Let's not worry about all those tourist businesses going bust. I don't have a tourist business so I don't care. And let's not worry about entire towns dependent on tourism being destroyed, with every business in the town going broke and all the townspeople losing their livelihoods. I don't live in such a town so I don't care. And I don't like travelling overseas so why the Hell should anyone else be allowed to do so? And we certainly shouldn't worry about a large sector of the economy being wiped out.

    Also I don't like golf. Is golf absolutely necessary? Why not just get rid of it? Why should someone else be allowed to enjoy something I don't like?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @yakushimaru, @UK

    A year ago I would have thought your post was too broad a satire, but now I have seen endless shut-ins bemoaning other people’s freedom to not be as miserable as them, and I think it underplays the issue.

    Even if it doesn’t, I am certain that a lot of people at least want to give the impression that they’d prefer it if everyone in the world was locked in their homes forever.

    • Replies: @g2k
    @UK

    1A couple of years ago i got a new job in a different city to my own and had to rent a room. My live-in landlord had such a sedantry lifestyle I was in disbelief. He would drive about 1.5 miles to work each morning (the city was congested and with awful parking so it actually took longer than waking) before coming home, microwaving a ready-meal and eating it in bed in his underpants (at about 18:00) then watching Netflix until he fell asleep. He's either been furloughed or is working from home now, so I doubt he's been out of bed for six weeks. Unsurprisingly, he's posting "StayTheFuckHome" memes on Facebook nonstop and complaining about "covidiots". I suspect I've massively underestimated how many people just like him exist.

  85. @128
    @yakushimaru

    How much of that cooperation was voluntary or "voluntary"? But yes in a shame based culture it is easier to get compliance of these things through social pressure, in a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period for when your parents and grandparents died, back in the days. When you were supposed to abstain from sex, alcohol, meat, banquets, or other joyous activities, even Imperial Chancellors were supposed to resign from their jobs for 27 months as part of the mourning ritual.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @yakushimaru

    voluntary or “voluntary”

    You can only have so many polices. You only have so much money to pay the loyals. And the police need resources to do their job. More resources if the jobs are more difficult. Etc.

    Large sudden change to society is impossible if most are against. Look at Iraq during the decade after Sadam was killed, USA had an army there, and huge amount of money to support local friendlies.

    a shame based culture

    This point is throw around casually. But, frankly, I am not sure about the exact meaning of it. Maybe it is because most of the time I tend to have a microeconomic, game theoretic view of human nature.

    In anycase, if it is not for the fact that the virus is spreading in the world, SARS 2 at this point could have been just a repeat of SARS 1. By which I mean that the actions by the Chinese government and Chinese people were not irrational or harmful that they need to be forced somehow.

    • Replies: @128
    @yakushimaru

    Well, what I mean is the shame based collectivist cultures find it easier to socially enforce quarantines which depend on social cooperation, and things like your neighbors shaming you to put on a face mask or practice social distancing.

  86. @128
    @yakushimaru

    How much of that cooperation was voluntary or "voluntary"? But yes in a shame based culture it is easier to get compliance of these things through social pressure, in a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period for when your parents and grandparents died, back in the days. When you were supposed to abstain from sex, alcohol, meat, banquets, or other joyous activities, even Imperial Chancellors were supposed to resign from their jobs for 27 months as part of the mourning ritual.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @yakushimaru

    a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period

    You know, the Cathoics have the confessions. It is not strange to you I suppose, but it actually is quite strange. Maoist China had public self critique or humiliation, indeed. Just disgusting. Of course the two are different in essence and in form. My point is, of course, not to have a boyish playground verbal fight. Rather, I think it usually is a mistake to get to too deep an interpretation instead of having simple reasonings if possible. Chinese, deep down, are not very mystique.

    • Replies: @128
    @yakushimaru

    Self criticisms actually are based on ancient Chinese culture, even emperors did self criticisms, though couched in a lot fancier language, but the meaning is essentially the same.

  87. @Anonymous (n)
    @inertial

    I have no idea how Chinese law works in this regard, all I know is that residential complexes during the outbreak had/have a lot of power to self police entry and exit. Whether these are temporary powers granted during a national emergency or the way it has always been I don't know. What I can tell you is that Chinese residential complexes or even individual apartment buildings mostly have 24 hour security and it is these security guards who enforce the regulations I spoke about, not the police.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @inertial, @yarro

    You are smart.
    Please post more.
    I’ll post less.
    To improve standards.
    Thanks.

  88. @yakushimaru
    @128


    a culture with a traditional 3-year mourning period
     
    You know, the Cathoics have the confessions. It is not strange to you I suppose, but it actually is quite strange. Maoist China had public self critique or humiliation, indeed. Just disgusting. Of course the two are different in essence and in form. My point is, of course, not to have a boyish playground verbal fight. Rather, I think it usually is a mistake to get to too deep an interpretation instead of having simple reasonings if possible. Chinese, deep down, are not very mystique.

    Replies: @128

    Self criticisms actually are based on ancient Chinese culture, even emperors did self criticisms, though couched in a lot fancier language, but the meaning is essentially the same.

  89. @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry, @dfordoom

    Yes, they controlled it better. Still because of the demographics Vietnam mortality would be 3 times lower than in Europe for the same number of infected.

    Vietnam has 7.2% population above 65 years old while France 19.7%, Germany 21.5%, Italy 23%.

    • Replies: @128
    @utu

    Vietnam had less than 300 cases and no deaths for a population of 90 plus million, how many cases and deaths did Spain or Germany have? And unlike NZ and Australia they are not an island.

  90. @utu
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, they controlled it better. Still because of the demographics Vietnam mortality would be 3 times lower than in Europe for the same number of infected.

    Vietnam has 7.2% population above 65 years old while France 19.7%, Germany 21.5%, Italy 23%.

    Replies: @128

    Vietnam had less than 300 cases and no deaths for a population of 90 plus million, how many cases and deaths did Spain or Germany have? And unlike NZ and Australia they are not an island.

  91. Interesting times lie ahead.

  92. g2k says:
    @UK
    @dfordoom

    A year ago I would have thought your post was too broad a satire, but now I have seen endless shut-ins bemoaning other people's freedom to not be as miserable as them, and I think it underplays the issue.

    Even if it doesn't, I am certain that a lot of people at least want to give the impression that they'd prefer it if everyone in the world was locked in their homes forever.

    Replies: @g2k

    1A couple of years ago i got a new job in a different city to my own and had to rent a room. My live-in landlord had such a sedantry lifestyle I was in disbelief. He would drive about 1.5 miles to work each morning (the city was congested and with awful parking so it actually took longer than waking) before coming home, microwaving a ready-meal and eating it in bed in his underpants (at about 18:00) then watching Netflix until he fell asleep. He’s either been furloughed or is working from home now, so I doubt he’s been out of bed for six weeks. Unsurprisingly, he’s posting “StayTheFuckHome” memes on Facebook nonstop and complaining about “covidiots”. I suspect I’ve massively underestimated how many people just like him exist.

    • Thanks: UK
  93. Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?

    Democrats are now favorites to take control of the Senate from Mitch McConnell: Election analyst

    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/democrats-are-now-favorites-to-take-control-of-the-senate-from-mitch-mcconnell-election-analyst/

    Democrats will probably retain the House

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/house/house-overview/2020-house-overview-can-democrats-keep-their-majority

    Biden leads Trump by 5+ points nationally

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html

    Biden is leading in major swing states: Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Michigan, Florida, Virginia. Tied, leading, or competitive in Texas, Wisconsin, Arizona, and North Carolina.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/general_election/

    Moderate republicans in tight races avoid mentioning Donald Trump or his handling of coronavirus:

    “In an attempt to ensure their contests become referendums on their own responses to the virus, rather than the president’s, vulnerable House Republicans are instead brandishing their own independent streaks, playing up their work with Democrats, doubling down on constituent service and hosting town-hall-style events — avoiding mention of Mr. Trump whenever possible,” the report continues with Rep John Katko (R-NY) admitting, “It does make it difficult at times.”

    According to former Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-FL) who battled with Trump and ended up losing his seat in the 2018 “blue wave” election — it is not an easy task.

    “The president continues to be reckless in the context of the Covid-19 crisis,” Curbelo explained. “You could see a similar dynamic where a lot of Republicans in competitive districts will just break with him in an effort to protect their own candidacies.”

    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/republicans-in-tight-races-flee-trump-as-november-election-disaster-looms-report/

    • Replies: @128
    @Divine Right

    I do not think coronavirus is killing enough old whites and working class whites to matter, plus it is killing more minorities than whites.

    Replies: @another anon

    , @A123
    @Divine Right


    Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?
     
    No. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by pro-DNC "push polls". They are intentionally designed to mislead the unwary.

    WUHAN-19 election disaster brewing for Democrats?

    The Presidential market continues to show Trump with a commanding lead 50¢/44¢.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/7554e74b061090aa2dcd60641bc76b38/1e6cb08d24379cb0-80/s1280x1920/14767b502af83eae70a1d96c99ea7ef1c0d6cb91.png

    Replies: @128

  94. @Divine Right
    Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?

    Democrats are now favorites to take control of the Senate from Mitch McConnell: Election analyst

    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/democrats-are-now-favorites-to-take-control-of-the-senate-from-mitch-mcconnell-election-analyst/
     

    Democrats will probably retain the House

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/house/house-overview/2020-house-overview-can-democrats-keep-their-majority
     

    Biden leads Trump by 5+ points nationally

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html
     

    Biden is leading in major swing states: Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Michigan, Florida, Virginia. Tied, leading, or competitive in Texas, Wisconsin, Arizona, and North Carolina.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/general_election/
     

    Moderate republicans in tight races avoid mentioning Donald Trump or his handling of coronavirus:

    “In an attempt to ensure their contests become referendums on their own responses to the virus, rather than the president’s, vulnerable House Republicans are instead brandishing their own independent streaks, playing up their work with Democrats, doubling down on constituent service and hosting town-hall-style events — avoiding mention of Mr. Trump whenever possible,” the report continues with Rep John Katko (R-NY) admitting, “It does make it difficult at times.”

    According to former Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-FL) who battled with Trump and ended up losing his seat in the 2018 “blue wave” election — it is not an easy task.

    “The president continues to be reckless in the context of the Covid-19 crisis,” Curbelo explained. “You could see a similar dynamic where a lot of Republicans in competitive districts will just break with him in an effort to protect their own candidacies.”


    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/republicans-in-tight-races-flee-trump-as-november-election-disaster-looms-report/
     

    Replies: @128, @A123

    I do not think coronavirus is killing enough old whites and working class whites to matter, plus it is killing more minorities than whites.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @128


    I do not think coronavirus is killing enough old whites and working class whites to matter, plus it is killing more minorities than whites.

     

    Do not worry, many people are working on it.

    https://twitter.com/CoreysDigs/status/1256790668594360320
  95. @yakushimaru
    @128


    voluntary or “voluntary”
     
    You can only have so many polices. You only have so much money to pay the loyals. And the police need resources to do their job. More resources if the jobs are more difficult. Etc.

    Large sudden change to society is impossible if most are against. Look at Iraq during the decade after Sadam was killed, USA had an army there, and huge amount of money to support local friendlies.

    a shame based culture
     
    This point is throw around casually. But, frankly, I am not sure about the exact meaning of it. Maybe it is because most of the time I tend to have a microeconomic, game theoretic view of human nature.

    In anycase, if it is not for the fact that the virus is spreading in the world, SARS 2 at this point could have been just a repeat of SARS 1. By which I mean that the actions by the Chinese government and Chinese people were not irrational or harmful that they need to be forced somehow.

    Replies: @128

    Well, what I mean is the shame based collectivist cultures find it easier to socially enforce quarantines which depend on social cooperation, and things like your neighbors shaming you to put on a face mask or practice social distancing.

  96. @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    The Western population in contrast believes what the government tells them. And the government told them not to worry, that they are well prepared, that masks don’t work, that herd immunity is the way to go, etc. With such “leadership,” East Asia couldn’t have handled it either.

    And regarding the Chinese population assuming truth to be way worse than what the government tells them: it only worked because this time, after some initial coverup, the government told them the truth. After January 23, people were told the truth about the virus, even if the numbers of deaths and infections were probably doctored. But what they said about the dangers and the contagiousness or the severity of the measures needed to stop it etc. were all true.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @Dmitry

    It rather seems the opposite. Western people trust their scandal mongering media and their power and fame hungry “experts” more than they trust politicians. The politicians freaked out under pressure and reversed course – and then of course a lot of them realized that this is a great opportunity for a power grab. The result is the greatest mass hysteria in history over a simple flu.

    Oh and btw hi everyone. I missed some time arguing against the lockdowns because I had to deal with a mess (related to lockdowns) and then I got sick. Yes I do think I was blessed by lady corona-chan, though I’ll have to take some antibody test to verify that I’m indeed one of the sainted survivors who can demand sympathy with the authority of scientific proof.

    The symptoms match but then they match with any flu, except for the loss of sense of taste and some mild symptoms lingering on even a week after the fever is gone. Meanwhile the median age of people dead of corona here is 84 ie. people who have reached the age where dying of flu is basically a natural death. I have been staying inside, following the stupid orders of the stupid government, but it all makes me feel really stupid when it’s totally obvious now that the “herd immunity” plan was correct and that we should have just continued life as normal without worrying about getting this disease.

    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
    • LOL: AltSerrice
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Jaakko Raipala


    Oh and btw hi everyone. I missed some time arguing against the lockdowns because I had to deal with a mess (related to lockdowns) and then I got sick. Yes I do think I was blessed by lady corona-chan, though I’ll have to take some antibody test to verify that I’m indeed one of the sainted survivors who can demand sympathy with the authority of scientific proof.
     
    Glad to hear you made it over the hump. A couple of my acquaintances were less fortunate.
  97. @Exile
    @Thomm

    Since your link slags everyone from Anglin to Enoch to Southern to Moly, can we have a list of "who isn't a ZOG agent" in your opinion, just for comparison?

    Replies: @anonymous without number

    Since your link slags everyone from Anglin to Enoch to Southern to Moly, can we have a list of “who isn’t a ZOG agent” in your opinion, just for comparison?

    Good question with easy answer.

    If you promote rape, violence, race mixing, whoremongering, porn, anime, “pick-up art”, MGTOW and other forms of faggotry and degeneracy you are ZOG agent, regardless whether you are paid or not.

    If you promote loving and harmonious White families, you are true defender of White people.

  98. @Dmitry
    @Znzn

    Here is case fatality rate in Russia until today (just around 1%).

    https://i.imgur.com/Ijvk7J2.png

    ^ However, it's better not to hope on this too much, as hospital deaths are often after weeks - and the epidemic is still comparatively recent in Russia. Community spread is only beginning sometime in second half of March (Russia is an early lockdown/self-isolation country, relative to the epidemic development*).

    -
    * Although - of course people a lot behaved better than in the UK - lockdown regime in Russia is not uniform and perfect.

    Here are photos of "stereotypically cultural people of Saint-Petersburg", trying to recreate Fast and Furious films during a pandemic.

    https://twitter.com/oldLentach/status/1256465353103814656

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    3 and 2 days ago the case numbers were 7099 and 7933, but asymptomatic cases were 40%I and 45% respectively. That is close to the same number of ill cases for both days.

    It is exactly the same for yesterday and today – 9600, asymptomatic 47% against 10600 ,asymptomatic of 50 % for today… so that is 5150 yesterday against 5300 new cases of ill people.

    Against 4300 new ill cases for 2 and 3 days ago that is a sizeable increase BUT this increase is because of increased testing in Moscow, the epicentre for this virus in RF, a place that until recently was having testing numbers only slightly above proportion its population share to the whole country…. not in proportion to its share of coronavirus cases which the newer testing numbers are closer to. Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no showing steady but not disturbing increases…. then I think you have a situation, mostly, under control.

    Most importantly, deaths, though tragic, are still relatively low (something for the whole world to envy) and are plateuing where the case numbers aren’t, particularly in Moscow.

    For 2 of the last 10 days it has got to around 100,but the other 8 days- 50-60.

    Spain and Germany coming out of lockdown are having far more deaths during recent days than Russia is having now!

    1700 recoveries, yesterday , with only 600 from Moscow is actually excellent news. It is a higher number of recoveries than in Italy today
    despite both countries having about 100000 active cases and Italy being a month longer into the crisis. I can’t think why a minority of the recoveries are in Moscow – but it is very good news if expecting Moscow to slowdown and other regions to go up in coronavirus cases

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard


    asymptomatic 47% against

     

    High rate of asymptomatic a good sign about how much mass testing there is, and that the epidemic is not as bad as it looks in the spreadsheet. So, dramatic figures in Russia are more a result that a larger proportion of the infected people are identified.

    However, I'm not sure how useful mass testing without connecting to policies to remove the infected person from the population, can be. In countries like Israel and China - people who has a positive coronavirus test result, are moved to isolation hotels, for quarantine. But in Russia, this test result is just a piece of information given to the person, and relies on the person to be responsible in self-isolating themselves afterwards.

    In addition, the advantage of mass testing is a surveillance of the epidemic, such as in South Korea - but in Russia, this surveillance does not always seem to connect to quarantine policies. There are cities where there is no epidemic, which still have wasted a month of self-isolation (despite good surveillance that there was no epidemic there).

    Authorities are copying successful policies of other countries, but without exploiting them in way which those other countries have, or with an indication of a coherent strategy.

    And yet in the USSR, there had been the world's most effective, coherent and intelligent, anti-epidemic state capacity.


    Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no

     

    There's no justification for the lack of quarantine of Moscow in March and of not quarantining all returning travellers into isolation hotels in Moscow. Then whole regions were lockdowned for April, even when the only infected people were openly sent from airports in Moscow by Rospotrebnadzor to their home cities a few days before. It is like something from the film "Idiocracy".

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

  99. @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry, @dfordoom

    It’s not quite a fair comparison, as Vietnam has such a tropical climate, so outdoor airborne infectivity of the virus will probably be lower for a much larger time of the year (compared to European countries, where airborne infectivity will likely be higher for more months in each year).

    A more unlikely comparison in Europe, is why all of the Balkan races have been more successful in avoiding the first wave of the pandemic, than all of the Latin ones? Balkan and Latin people have the same Southern European climate and culture, lifestyle, diet, demographic profile, racial similarity, and some (i.e. Croatia, Greece, Bulgaria) are even members of the European Union – so labour movement can be high between Latin and Balkan states.

    I assume here is just simple differences of political culture in the Latin and Balkan worldview, which resulted in different top down decisions and results which no epidemiologist could predict.

    • Replies: @128
    @Dmitry

    How do you explain Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines, getting thousands of cases, a lot of the transmission is happening indoors.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  100. @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    The Western population in contrast believes what the government tells them. And the government told them not to worry, that they are well prepared, that masks don’t work, that herd immunity is the way to go, etc. With such “leadership,” East Asia couldn’t have handled it either.

    And regarding the Chinese population assuming truth to be way worse than what the government tells them: it only worked because this time, after some initial coverup, the government told them the truth. After January 23, people were told the truth about the virus, even if the numbers of deaths and infections were probably doctored. But what they said about the dangers and the contagiousness or the severity of the measures needed to stop it etc. were all true.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala, @Dmitry

    government told them not to worry

    For Great Britain, this was true about their government for some time in early March, when Boris Johnson was saying “wash your hands and sing happy birthday”. However, very rapidly, there was a reverse, and the government has ordered extremely expensive lockdown, which is closing the economy.

    The problem is that for more than a month has been a certain type of disobedience of the population, which undermined the anti-epidemic effectiveness of lockdown, while still allowing its anti-economic effects fully.

    So, population seems to believe “it’s good to do free activities like walking outside in the streets in large groups or visiting friends’ home to watch DVDs” – i.e. activities which continue the epidemic, while not contributing to the economy. However, activities which can cost money (i.e. help the economy), like to go to takeaway restaurants, or sit in an outdoor cafe – are banned.

    If the people had been just provided adequate PPE and had been a bit more intelligent, and government added some military quarantines of infected areas – they could have maintained open maybe even most of the economy all these weeks.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @128
    @Dmitry

    Considering armed protesters in places like Michigan, trying to impose a military or a strict quarantine in the US will likely result in armed conflict.

  101. A123 says:
    @Divine Right
    Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?

    Democrats are now favorites to take control of the Senate from Mitch McConnell: Election analyst

    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/democrats-are-now-favorites-to-take-control-of-the-senate-from-mitch-mcconnell-election-analyst/
     

    Democrats will probably retain the House

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/house/house-overview/2020-house-overview-can-democrats-keep-their-majority
     

    Biden leads Trump by 5+ points nationally

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html
     

    Biden is leading in major swing states: Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Michigan, Florida, Virginia. Tied, leading, or competitive in Texas, Wisconsin, Arizona, and North Carolina.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/general_election/
     

    Moderate republicans in tight races avoid mentioning Donald Trump or his handling of coronavirus:

    “In an attempt to ensure their contests become referendums on their own responses to the virus, rather than the president’s, vulnerable House Republicans are instead brandishing their own independent streaks, playing up their work with Democrats, doubling down on constituent service and hosting town-hall-style events — avoiding mention of Mr. Trump whenever possible,” the report continues with Rep John Katko (R-NY) admitting, “It does make it difficult at times.”

    According to former Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-FL) who battled with Trump and ended up losing his seat in the 2018 “blue wave” election — it is not an easy task.

    “The president continues to be reckless in the context of the Covid-19 crisis,” Curbelo explained. “You could see a similar dynamic where a lot of Republicans in competitive districts will just break with him in an effort to protect their own candidacies.”


    https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/republicans-in-tight-races-flee-trump-as-november-election-disaster-looms-report/
     

    Replies: @128, @A123

    Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?

    No. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by pro-DNC “push polls”. They are intentionally designed to mislead the unwary.

    WUHAN-19 election disaster brewing for Democrats?

    The Presidential market continues to show Trump with a commanding lead 50¢/44¢.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    • Replies: @128
    @A123

    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?

    Replies: @A123, @AP

  102. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor


    government told them not to worry

     

    For Great Britain, this was true about their government for some time in early March, when Boris Johnson was saying "wash your hands and sing happy birthday". However, very rapidly, there was a reverse, and the government has ordered extremely expensive lockdown, which is closing the economy.

    The problem is that for more than a month has been a certain type of disobedience of the population, which undermined the anti-epidemic effectiveness of lockdown, while still allowing its anti-economic effects fully.

    So, population seems to believe "it's good to do free activities like walking outside in the streets in large groups or visiting friends' home to watch DVDs" - i.e. activities which continue the epidemic, while not contributing to the economy. However, activities which can cost money (i.e. help the economy), like to go to takeaway restaurants, or sit in an outdoor cafe - are banned.

    If the people had been just provided adequate PPE and had been a bit more intelligent, and government added some military quarantines of infected areas - they could have maintained open maybe even most of the economy all these weeks.

    Replies: @128

    Considering armed protesters in places like Michigan, trying to impose a military or a strict quarantine in the US will likely result in armed conflict.

  103. @A123
    @Divine Right


    Coronavirus election disaster brewing for the republicans?
     
    No. Do not allow yourself to be deceived by pro-DNC "push polls". They are intentionally designed to mislead the unwary.

    WUHAN-19 election disaster brewing for Democrats?

    The Presidential market continues to show Trump with a commanding lead 50¢/44¢.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/7554e74b061090aa2dcd60641bc76b38/1e6cb08d24379cb0-80/s1280x1920/14767b502af83eae70a1d96c99ea7ef1c0d6cb91.png

    Replies: @128

    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?

    • Replies: @A123
    @128


    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?
     
    You know there is a huge problem with non-citizens registering and voting? Also, the deceased?

    The DNC relies on felony crimes as a large part of their election strategy. Look at Coney and Mueller of you need proof of criminal activity.

    PEACE 😷
    , @AP
    @128

    Nonsense.

  104. @songbird
    Facebook recently banned some people for posting pictures of English flags on St. George's Day.

    For my part, I tend to believe the rumor that Zuck asked Xi to name his child, but Xi declined.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Just Passing Through

    Facebook later unbanned them, citing a glitch in the algorithm. I would not be surprised if what really happened was that the algorithm only intended to put them on a ‘watchlist’ but banned them by mistake instead.

  105. A123 says:
    @128
    @A123

    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?

    Replies: @A123, @AP

    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?

    You know there is a huge problem with non-citizens registering and voting? Also, the deceased?

    The DNC relies on felony crimes as a large part of their election strategy. Look at Coney and Mueller of you need proof of criminal activity.

    PEACE 😷

  106. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    3 and 2 days ago the case numbers were 7099 and 7933, but asymptomatic cases were 40%I and 45% respectively. That is close to the same number of ill cases for both days.

    It is exactly the same for yesterday and today - 9600, asymptomatic 47% against 10600 ,asymptomatic of 50 % for today... so that is 5150 yesterday against 5300 new cases of ill people.

    Against 4300 new ill cases for 2 and 3 days ago that is a sizeable increase BUT this increase is because of increased testing in Moscow, the epicentre for this virus in RF, a place that until recently was having testing numbers only slightly above proportion its population share to the whole country.... not in proportion to its share of coronavirus cases which the newer testing numbers are closer to. Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no showing steady but not disturbing increases.... then I think you have a situation, mostly, under control.

    Most importantly, deaths, though tragic, are still relatively low (something for the whole world to envy) and are plateuing where the case numbers aren't, particularly in Moscow.

    For 2 of the last 10 days it has got to around 100,but the other 8 days- 50-60.

    Spain and Germany coming out of lockdown are having far more deaths during recent days than Russia is having now!

    1700 recoveries, yesterday , with only 600 from Moscow is actually excellent news. It is a higher number of recoveries than in Italy today
    despite both countries having about 100000 active cases and Italy being a month longer into the crisis. I can't think why a minority of the recoveries are in Moscow - but it is very good news if expecting Moscow to slowdown and other regions to go up in coronavirus cases

    Replies: @Dmitry

    asymptomatic 47% against

    High rate of asymptomatic a good sign about how much mass testing there is, and that the epidemic is not as bad as it looks in the spreadsheet. So, dramatic figures in Russia are more a result that a larger proportion of the infected people are identified.

    However, I’m not sure how useful mass testing without connecting to policies to remove the infected person from the population, can be. In countries like Israel and China – people who has a positive coronavirus test result, are moved to isolation hotels, for quarantine. But in Russia, this test result is just a piece of information given to the person, and relies on the person to be responsible in self-isolating themselves afterwards.

    In addition, the advantage of mass testing is a surveillance of the epidemic, such as in South Korea – but in Russia, this surveillance does not always seem to connect to quarantine policies. There are cities where there is no epidemic, which still have wasted a month of self-isolation (despite good surveillance that there was no epidemic there).

    Authorities are copying successful policies of other countries, but without exploiting them in way which those other countries have, or with an indication of a coherent strategy.

    And yet in the USSR, there had been the world’s most effective, coherent and intelligent, anti-epidemic state capacity.

    Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no

    There’s no justification for the lack of quarantine of Moscow in March and of not quarantining all returning travellers into isolation hotels in Moscow. Then whole regions were lockdowned for April, even when the only infected people were openly sent from airports in Moscow by Rospotrebnadzor to their home cities a few days before. It is like something from the film “Idiocracy”.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    I think they just assumed that health care systems in Western Europe would perform much better.

    52 deaths in Moscow today, 2 bad stats yesterday in that deaths were greater outside of Moscow for the first time.... and deaths were lower for the day in Germany ( though that should not be too surprising given the respective stages of the virus in both countries)

    If deaths tomorrow are at about 100 or lower tomorrow then we can still call it as in the ftplateau region. 120+ deaths and then it is probably not.

    If we are in a position to restart after 12th May, then that is a very good result. We started (lesser) restrictive measures about 3 weeks to a month after most of Europe, plus with the May holidays and many having long holidays in this period anyway.... only 3 working days would have been lost from the 2 week extension of "non-working weeks". Of course the people whose businesses rely on people enjoying their holidays are in bad position.... but overall effect on economy not too bad. Officials have given false hope talking about us continuously being 2 weeks away from the end throughout each week of the first "non working" week.... now they are going the other way and saying we are not anywhere near the peak!

    Replies: @Dmitry

  107. @128
    @Divine Right

    I do not think coronavirus is killing enough old whites and working class whites to matter, plus it is killing more minorities than whites.

    Replies: @another anon

    I do not think coronavirus is killing enough old whites and working class whites to matter, plus it is killing more minorities than whites.

    Do not worry, many people are working on it.

    https://twitter.com/CoreysDigs/status/1256790668594360320

  108. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    It's not quite a fair comparison, as Vietnam has such a tropical climate, so outdoor airborne infectivity of the virus will probably be lower for a much larger time of the year (compared to European countries, where airborne infectivity will likely be higher for more months in each year).

    A more unlikely comparison in Europe, is why all of the Balkan races have been more successful in avoiding the first wave of the pandemic, than all of the Latin ones? Balkan and Latin people have the same Southern European climate and culture, lifestyle, diet, demographic profile, racial similarity, and some (i.e. Croatia, Greece, Bulgaria) are even members of the European Union - so labour movement can be high between Latin and Balkan states.

    I assume here is just simple differences of political culture in the Latin and Balkan worldview, which resulted in different top down decisions and results which no epidemiologist could predict.

    Replies: @128

    How do you explain Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines, getting thousands of cases, a lot of the transmission is happening indoors.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @128

    Probably there is outdoor transmission still there, although with lower infectivity, as well as transmission in places like air-conditioned shopping malls, or via surfaces.

    However, if you think about seasonality of the virus, and combine with what we know about studies on droplet transmission - and its temperature boundaries -, it seems to indicate that outdoor transmission is one of routes of transmission.

    Let's say 11000 infected people in Indonesia so far, is not very much, when considering it has 267 million people, or around 85% of the population of USA, and closer connections to China than USA.

    Philippines - which claims to have a little over 9 thousand infected cases -, has 101 million people, or 70% of the population of Russia, and 215% of Spain.

    Malaysia has 6298 infections total and around 100 dead, according to Worldometers - but 70% of the population of Spain, which has almost 250000 infections and over 25000 dead.

  109. On a lighter side, and definitely pointing to life beyond Covid-19, I found this trailer announcing the completion of a documentary regarding the history of the Ukrainian input into the NHL by the end of 2020. I know that Mike Averko might be interested in this film, perhaps AP and others too:

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Gretzky's ethnic background:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gretzky

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/gretzky-finds-roots-in-belarus/article753200/

    https://belarusdigest.com/story/legendary-hockey-player-gretzky-meets-belarusian-relatives/

    Surprised the linked trailer didn't include Dave Andreychuk.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  110. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    We might find out, see #3. (But probably not).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You’re probably aware of Ron Unz’ recent announcement where he pretty much shoulders all of the “blame” for the recent banning on Facebook. He feels that it was a direct response to his latest piece detailing why a cautious American elite might feel threatened by his suggestion that it was they that launched a “deliberate biowarfare attack against China.”

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    It appears that anything that you may have written about this subject was minor in comparison to this “no guns hold” approach that Unz decided to level at those at the top of the US hierarchy.

  111. Well it has happened I lost all interest in corona chan. So much politicizing going around this it is insane. Met with friends the other day. Head of house is very adamant [insert every “it’s just a flu bro” talking point].

  112. @Anonymous (n)
    @inertial

    I have no idea how Chinese law works in this regard, all I know is that residential complexes during the outbreak had/have a lot of power to self police entry and exit. Whether these are temporary powers granted during a national emergency or the way it has always been I don't know. What I can tell you is that Chinese residential complexes or even individual apartment buildings mostly have 24 hour security and it is these security guards who enforce the regulations I spoke about, not the police.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @inertial, @yarro

    Now that you mention it, I remember seeing this in someone’s China photo travelogue (Carl Zha’s?) There are these buildings with a wall around them and guards who only let in local residents with passes. Such arrangements exist in America, too. Here, they are called “gated communities” and are generally located near or inside ghettos.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @inertial

    This is how China created a successful coronavirus self-isolation regime - they sent guards outside of everyone's building. We needed something like this.

    In Wuhan, it was strict, and they locked everyone in their apartment building, with guards outside preventing people from leaving their building for any reason.

    People were going crazy after a while. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opFCAWZHpzg

    On the other hand, in Beijing (where the epidemic never developed so much), it was more relaxed as people could leave once a day for food - however, still strict as there are people outside your apartment building to check your ID. It was better organized and less stupid than e.g. QR code checking in Moscow.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRFrCzQMlY

    Replies: @128

  113. @yakushimaru
    @inertial

    Any large scale "lockdown" will have to depend on the population's cooperation. This simply cannot be something dealing with technicalities, legalistic or otherwise. (Best Korea notwithstanding. We are talking about a sudden change after all.)

    It is comparable to a country going to war. You would want, say, bipartisan support of it.

    Replies: @inertial

    Chinese need “cooperation” because they live in each other’s hair. Americans are plenty isolated as it is. Live in single family houses, drive cars everywhere… There are many cases in America now but they seem to be concentrated in pretty specific places.

    Regular people don’t see much of this. Take me as an example. I don’t even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
    @inertial


    Regular people don’t see much of this. Take me as an example. I don’t even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.
     
    Me neither. Hahaha. And I am in China.

    Somehow I think that if the government delayed the "lockdown" in Wuhan for another week, maybe I'll be happier? Cheers.
    , @Erik Sieven
    @inertial

    I know one personally and several persons through one other person.

  114. Younger Muscovites acquiring herd immunity 👍

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Felix Keverich


    23 degrees today.
     
    At least those high temperatures, will start to reduce the probability of airborne transmission of the virus via droplets in outside air.
  115. Is there a Russian website for birth and death data, something from the state statistics agency rosstat? The Russian Covid death rate is pretty low compared to others, but does not seem that extraordinary compared to others in Eastern Europe, are there excess deaths from other causes?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Aslangeo

    It’d certainly be interesting.

    , @sudden death
    @Aslangeo


    At the moment, however, compiling an excess deaths count for Russia is much trickier. For one, the federal statistics agency Rosstat will only release figures for April at the end of May or in early June. But even that is not enough for an accurate count, said Shkolnikov.

    “If the curve in coronavirus cases began growing in the middle of April, the data for the first two weeks will skew our count,” he explained. “We need to look week by week.”

    Those numbers, however, usually come out by the fall of the following year — or around September 2021 for the current period.
     

    About currents tricks of corona death counting in RF:

    On Friday, Russia reported 187,859 coronavirus cases to only 1,723 deaths, putting it in fifth place globally for case numbers with a mortality rate of only 0.9%.

    But the official coronavirus information page for the Urals region of Chelyabinsk presents two statistics — the only Russian region to do so — that help address the disparity. Taken together, they get to the heart of a debate beginning to rage over which country has handled the contagion best.

    Covid-19, the page reports, has so far killed three people in the region, while another seven tested positive but died from another cause.

    The second figure would have boosted Chelyabinsk’s coronavirus death toll by 233% but was not included in the state toll because Russia does not automatically list Covid-19 as the cause of death if the deceased tested positive for the coronavirus.

    According to one expert with knowledge of the Health Ministry’s plans, the practice of publishing both sets of figures looks set to become the norm within weeks, indicating that Russia is becoming increasingly transparent about its classification process.

    In addition to Chelyabinsk, The Moscow Times found three other regions that have announced statistics for deaths from coronavirus and deaths of patients who were coronavirus-positive. Using the more liberal classification method in Sverdlovsk would have increased deaths by 233%, while numbers in Saratov would have risen by 200% and in Ryazan by 60%.

    Russia is planning to make these figures available nationwide by publishing a database that will contain both sets of statistics for all regions “within several weeks,” according to Timonin, who has seen the Health Ministry’s preliminary dataset. The Health Ministry did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Based on the Health Ministry data he has seen, Timonin said that for Moscow, the epicenter of Russia’s coronavirus outbreak, the 956 coronavirus deaths that have been recorded account for only about 35% of all coronavirus-positive patient deaths in the Russian capital.

    “More than 1,500 additional patients who tested positive for the coronavirus have died, but in those cases pathologists decided the virus did not play a decisive role,” Timonin said.
     

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/05/08/russia-is-boasting-about-low-coronavirus-deaths-the-numbers-are-deceiving-a70220

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

  116. @Aslangeo
    Is there a Russian website for birth and death data, something from the state statistics agency rosstat? The Russian Covid death rate is pretty low compared to others, but does not seem that extraordinary compared to others in Eastern Europe, are there excess deaths from other causes?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @sudden death

    It’d certainly be interesting.

  117. @Mr. Hack
    On a lighter side, and definitely pointing to life beyond Covid-19, I found this trailer announcing the completion of a documentary regarding the history of the Ukrainian input into the NHL by the end of 2020. I know that Mike Averko might be interested in this film, perhaps AP and others too:

    https://youtu.be/xHLf8IapX_I

    Replies: @Mikhail

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Gretzky was of mixed BelaRussian and Ukrainian ethnicty, his father was of BeloRusian background and his mother, born in Pidhajce Ukraine (Galicia) was Ukrainian. His father married Wayne's mother in after a stint in the military and the only Slavic language used within the family home was Ukrainian. You can hear Wayne discuss his Ukrainian roots here in this video (starting around 1:18) at a large fundraiser dinner in Toronto supporting the Ukrainian cause against Donbas separatists :

    https://youtu.be/kF54M2vXwS0

    Don't worry, there will be plenty of other great hockey players of Ukrainian background, besides Gretzky, that will be spotlighted within this documentary. :-)

    Replies: @Mikhail

  118. @reiner Tor
    @128

    Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter, we need his level of powerfulness.

    Replies: @128, @Anon 2

    Re: Anon 2 is a very powerful commenter

    “Polak, Węgier, Dwa Bratanki, …” (“Pole, Hungarian, Brothers Be, …”)

  119. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Gretzky's ethnic background:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gretzky

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/gretzky-finds-roots-in-belarus/article753200/

    https://belarusdigest.com/story/legendary-hockey-player-gretzky-meets-belarusian-relatives/

    Surprised the linked trailer didn't include Dave Andreychuk.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Gretzky was of mixed BelaRussian and Ukrainian ethnicty, his father was of BeloRusian background and his mother, born in Pidhajce Ukraine (Galicia) was Ukrainian. His father married Wayne’s mother in after a stint in the military and the only Slavic language used within the family home was Ukrainian. You can hear Wayne discuss his Ukrainian roots here in this video (starting around 1:18) at a large fundraiser dinner in Toronto supporting the Ukrainian cause against Donbas separatists :

    Don’t worry, there will be plenty of other great hockey players of Ukrainian background, besides Gretzky, that will be spotlighted within this documentary. 🙂

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Distinguish between North American born (sometimes being of another ethnicity) and Ukrainian born (ethnic Ukrainian, part ethnic Ukrainian and non-ethnic Ukrainian).

    There're also numerous past and present Russian players with names suggesting they might've roots on the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR (Tarasenko, Datsyuk, Tretiak, Kovalchuk, among others).

    A great Ukrainian SSR born Rusyn player:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bondra

    More about Gretzky's background at this link with some other missives:

    https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ukrainians-in-the-nhl.2199551/page-3

    Excerpt -


    Walter is, not Wayne. People always seem to forget that Wayne's mother was English-Canadian and a descendant of Sir Isaac Brock at that!

    To clear up some of the confusion that always follows discussion of Gretzky's ancestry... Walter's mother/Wayne's grandmother was born in Pidhaitsi and her mother tongue was Ukrainian. It was also the only language Walter was able to speak after suffering his stroke. His father was from the Grodno region in Belarus.

    The confusion about Gretzky being Polish stems from his mother's identity: It was not unusual in this region to have religion conflated with ethnic identity. Roman Catholicism was literally referred to as the "Polish faith" in everyday speech. Despite Ukrainian being the language spoken at home, Walter's mother was also fluent in Polish and was Roman Catholic, so she considered herself to be Polish. Her Ukrainian neighbours, who would have been mostly Greek Catholic, were also likely to consider her family to be Polish. It is a bit hard to understand in the modern context, but remember, in those days a lot revolved around the church. I would not go so far to say the two communities lived separate lives but there most certainly was a divide between them.

    So... take your pick about Walter... Belarusian, Ukrainian, Polish... little bit of all the above, really.
     

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  120. @Felix Keverich
    Younger Muscovites acquiring herd immunity 👍

    https://twitter.com/BBCWillVernon/status/1256908811497025537

    Replies: @Dmitry

    23 degrees today.

    At least those high temperatures, will start to reduce the probability of airborne transmission of the virus via droplets in outside air.

  121. @128
    @Dmitry

    How do you explain Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines, getting thousands of cases, a lot of the transmission is happening indoors.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Probably there is outdoor transmission still there, although with lower infectivity, as well as transmission in places like air-conditioned shopping malls, or via surfaces.

    However, if you think about seasonality of the virus, and combine with what we know about studies on droplet transmission – and its temperature boundaries -, it seems to indicate that outdoor transmission is one of routes of transmission.

    Let’s say 11000 infected people in Indonesia so far, is not very much, when considering it has 267 million people, or around 85% of the population of USA, and closer connections to China than USA.

    Philippines – which claims to have a little over 9 thousand infected cases -, has 101 million people, or 70% of the population of Russia, and 215% of Spain.

    Malaysia has 6298 infections total and around 100 dead, according to Worldometers – but 70% of the population of Spain, which has almost 250000 infections and over 25000 dead.

  122. @inertial
    @Anonymous (n)

    Now that you mention it, I remember seeing this in someone's China photo travelogue (Carl Zha's?) There are these buildings with a wall around them and guards who only let in local residents with passes. Such arrangements exist in America, too. Here, they are called "gated communities" and are generally located near or inside ghettos.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    This is how China created a successful coronavirus self-isolation regime – they sent guards outside of everyone’s building. We needed something like this.

    In Wuhan, it was strict, and they locked everyone in their apartment building, with guards outside preventing people from leaving their building for any reason.

    People were going crazy after a while. E.g.

    On the other hand, in Beijing (where the epidemic never developed so much), it was more relaxed as people could leave once a day for food – however, still strict as there are people outside your apartment building to check your ID. It was better organized and less stupid than e.g. QR code checking in Moscow.

    • Replies: @128
    @Dmitry

    Was Unz.com banned from Facebook before or after Anglin was added here? I wonder if Unz would add the chairman of NAMBLA next?

  123. @inertial
    @yakushimaru

    Chinese need "cooperation" because they live in each other's hair. Americans are plenty isolated as it is. Live in single family houses, drive cars everywhere... There are many cases in America now but they seem to be concentrated in pretty specific places.

    https://twitter.com/ginasue/status/1255847979740794885

    Regular people don't see much of this. Take me as an example. I don't even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @Erik Sieven

    Regular people don’t see much of this. Take me as an example. I don’t even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.

    Me neither. Hahaha. And I am in China.

    Somehow I think that if the government delayed the “lockdown” in Wuhan for another week, maybe I’ll be happier? Cheers.

  124. @128
    @A123

    You know that Texas has just become a swing state right?

    Replies: @A123, @AP

    Nonsense.

  125. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Gretzky was of mixed BelaRussian and Ukrainian ethnicty, his father was of BeloRusian background and his mother, born in Pidhajce Ukraine (Galicia) was Ukrainian. His father married Wayne's mother in after a stint in the military and the only Slavic language used within the family home was Ukrainian. You can hear Wayne discuss his Ukrainian roots here in this video (starting around 1:18) at a large fundraiser dinner in Toronto supporting the Ukrainian cause against Donbas separatists :

    https://youtu.be/kF54M2vXwS0

    Don't worry, there will be plenty of other great hockey players of Ukrainian background, besides Gretzky, that will be spotlighted within this documentary. :-)

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Distinguish between North American born (sometimes being of another ethnicity) and Ukrainian born (ethnic Ukrainian, part ethnic Ukrainian and non-ethnic Ukrainian).

    There’re also numerous past and present Russian players with names suggesting they might’ve roots on the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR (Tarasenko, Datsyuk, Tretiak, Kovalchuk, among others).

    A great Ukrainian SSR born Rusyn player:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bondra

    More about Gretzky’s background at this link with some other missives:

    https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ukrainians-in-the-nhl.2199551/page-3

    Excerpt –

    Walter is, not Wayne. People always seem to forget that Wayne’s mother was English-Canadian and a descendant of Sir Isaac Brock at that!

    To clear up some of the confusion that always follows discussion of Gretzky’s ancestry… Walter’s mother/Wayne’s grandmother was born in Pidhaitsi and her mother tongue was Ukrainian. It was also the only language Walter was able to speak after suffering his stroke. His father was from the Grodno region in Belarus.

    The confusion about Gretzky being Polish stems from his mother’s identity: It was not unusual in this region to have religion conflated with ethnic identity. Roman Catholicism was literally referred to as the “Polish faith” in everyday speech. Despite Ukrainian being the language spoken at home, Walter’s mother was also fluent in Polish and was Roman Catholic, so she considered herself to be Polish. Her Ukrainian neighbours, who would have been mostly Greek Catholic, were also likely to consider her family to be Polish. It is a bit hard to understand in the modern context, but remember, in those days a lot revolved around the church. I would not go so far to say the two communities lived separate lives but there most certainly was a divide between them.

    So… take your pick about Walter… Belarusian, Ukrainian, Polish… little bit of all the above, really.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    For a long time, Polish transplants and their progeny that lived in Ukraine clung more closely to their Polishness.The vast majority that live there today have been absorbed into their vastly larger Ukrainian neighbors. Similar processes have occurred with Ukrainians living within both Poland and Russia. These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.

    Replies: @Thomm

  126. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    Distinguish between North American born (sometimes being of another ethnicity) and Ukrainian born (ethnic Ukrainian, part ethnic Ukrainian and non-ethnic Ukrainian).

    There're also numerous past and present Russian players with names suggesting they might've roots on the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR (Tarasenko, Datsyuk, Tretiak, Kovalchuk, among others).

    A great Ukrainian SSR born Rusyn player:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bondra

    More about Gretzky's background at this link with some other missives:

    https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ukrainians-in-the-nhl.2199551/page-3

    Excerpt -


    Walter is, not Wayne. People always seem to forget that Wayne's mother was English-Canadian and a descendant of Sir Isaac Brock at that!

    To clear up some of the confusion that always follows discussion of Gretzky's ancestry... Walter's mother/Wayne's grandmother was born in Pidhaitsi and her mother tongue was Ukrainian. It was also the only language Walter was able to speak after suffering his stroke. His father was from the Grodno region in Belarus.

    The confusion about Gretzky being Polish stems from his mother's identity: It was not unusual in this region to have religion conflated with ethnic identity. Roman Catholicism was literally referred to as the "Polish faith" in everyday speech. Despite Ukrainian being the language spoken at home, Walter's mother was also fluent in Polish and was Roman Catholic, so she considered herself to be Polish. Her Ukrainian neighbours, who would have been mostly Greek Catholic, were also likely to consider her family to be Polish. It is a bit hard to understand in the modern context, but remember, in those days a lot revolved around the church. I would not go so far to say the two communities lived separate lives but there most certainly was a divide between them.

    So... take your pick about Walter... Belarusian, Ukrainian, Polish... little bit of all the above, really.
     

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    For a long time, Polish transplants and their progeny that lived in Ukraine clung more closely to their Polishness.The vast majority that live there today have been absorbed into their vastly larger Ukrainian neighbors. Similar processes have occurred with Ukrainians living within both Poland and Russia. These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    @Mr. Hack


    These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.
     
    You are absolutely correct.

    At the same time, White Trashionalists in the US are adamant that assimilation never happens. To this day, they insist that Jews are not white. This is something that, if mentioned to Ron Unz, drives him to madness, since he is adamant that Jews were always considered 'white' in America. The truth is, when Poles, Italians, and even Irish were new in the US, they were not quite considered 'white' in a social sense.

    Assimilation happens faster in descending order of the following traits :

    i) Similar appearance (Poles assimilating into Ukrainian society, etc.).
    ii) Similar economic competence of the new group relative to the host population (leading to intermarriage)
    iii) Similar religion (e.g. Irish marrying Italians, and both marrying Mexican-Americans in the US).

    If neither i) nor ii) are true, it is very hard for a minority population to fully assimilate (e.g. blacks in the US).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  127. Thomm says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    For a long time, Polish transplants and their progeny that lived in Ukraine clung more closely to their Polishness.The vast majority that live there today have been absorbed into their vastly larger Ukrainian neighbors. Similar processes have occurred with Ukrainians living within both Poland and Russia. These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.

    Replies: @Thomm

    These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.

    You are absolutely correct.

    At the same time, White Trashionalists in the US are adamant that assimilation never happens. To this day, they insist that Jews are not white. This is something that, if mentioned to Ron Unz, drives him to madness, since he is adamant that Jews were always considered ‘white’ in America. The truth is, when Poles, Italians, and even Irish were new in the US, they were not quite considered ‘white’ in a social sense.

    Assimilation happens faster in descending order of the following traits :

    i) Similar appearance (Poles assimilating into Ukrainian society, etc.).
    ii) Similar economic competence of the new group relative to the host population (leading to intermarriage)
    iii) Similar religion (e.g. Irish marrying Italians, and both marrying Mexican-Americans in the US).

    If neither i) nor ii) are true, it is very hard for a minority population to fully assimilate (e.g. blacks in the US).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thomm

    Yet, they are assimilating. I can remember in my childhood when blacks (they were called "Negroes" then) looked much closer to their African counterparts: much darker complexions, curlier hair, wider nostrils etc;, and not all due to cosmetic surgery like Michael Jackson. The sound of their speech was much different back then too, and I don't mean just some additional slang words either. I'm not sure how this trend will continue though, as so many of the new imports from Africa are from Somalia. Locally born blacks even consider the Somalians as being too rusticated and wild for their tastes! :-)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  128. @128
    I wonder how much of international travel is absolutely necessary? I mean tourism could probably be replaced by webcams? And business travel can be replaced by videoconferencing?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @dfordoom, @The Alarmist, @Dumbo, @G. Poulin

    And whorehouses could, theoretically, be replaced by telephone sex. But something would be lacking.

  129. @Dmitry
    @inertial

    This is how China created a successful coronavirus self-isolation regime - they sent guards outside of everyone's building. We needed something like this.

    In Wuhan, it was strict, and they locked everyone in their apartment building, with guards outside preventing people from leaving their building for any reason.

    People were going crazy after a while. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opFCAWZHpzg

    On the other hand, in Beijing (where the epidemic never developed so much), it was more relaxed as people could leave once a day for food - however, still strict as there are people outside your apartment building to check your ID. It was better organized and less stupid than e.g. QR code checking in Moscow.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRFrCzQMlY

    Replies: @128

    Was Unz.com banned from Facebook before or after Anglin was added here? I wonder if Unz would add the chairman of NAMBLA next?

  130. @inertial
    @yakushimaru

    Chinese need "cooperation" because they live in each other's hair. Americans are plenty isolated as it is. Live in single family houses, drive cars everywhere... There are many cases in America now but they seem to be concentrated in pretty specific places.

    https://twitter.com/ginasue/status/1255847979740794885

    Regular people don't see much of this. Take me as an example. I don't even know anyone who tested positive, and I live in the middle of a supposed hot zone.

    Replies: @yakushimaru, @Erik Sieven

    I know one personally and several persons through one other person.

  131. Given that Bernie was a cuck, and Jesse Ventura can’t make up his mind, maybe POTUS 46 should be this bloke: https://twitter.com/jackcalifano/status/1252312958421483521

  132. Now that The Wall is nearly completed, President Trump can go after social media barons.

  133. @Dmitry
    Americans need to hope that warmer (higher absolute humid air) and UV of California, reduce transmission in such open-air "events". Otherwise, someone is going to win a lot of Darwin awards.
    https://twitter.com/nbcsandiego/status/1256311846123917313

    https://twitter.com/nbcsandiego/status/1256439788791570432

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu. Why do you assume that congregating is dangerous for the rest of us?

    Apparently it is still the case that just repeating something ad nauseam is enough to get most people assuming that it must be true. Every government and corporate and media email and website refer ominously and dramatically to “The Age of COVID-19” without any reliable numbers on fatality rate for non-elderly people who actually tested positive for this virus and did not have a major comorbidity.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Infection fatality rate was estimated at 0,66% by Lancelet. This was based on Chinese data, so of course it could be wildly wrong.
    https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930243-7&#8242

    Other early estimated were 0,6%
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32234121

    Italian researchers are estimating much higher infection fatality rate of 1,29%, from Italy.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20070912v1.full.pdf

    Italy has second oldest population in the world so that could be part of the explanation for their high fatality rate - although it still sounds far too high as an estimate.

    Epidemiologists in the Ministry of Health (Russia), are claiming it is around 0,2% for people under 40 years old, over 60 is 3,6% and over 80 is 15%. https://rg.ru/2020/05/04/v-minzdrave-rasskazali-zhdat-li-vtoruiu-i-tretiu-volny-covid-19.html


    -

    Considering that more than 70 doctors and nurses have died with coronavirus already in Russia and the first wave of the epidemic is not yet at the plateau - if it is "just ordinary flu", then the media should be criticized for underreporting the dangers of ordinary flu (if dozens of doctors would die every few weeks from working with flu patients?).

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard, @Jaakko Raipala

    , @anonymous coward
    @RadicalCenter


    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu.
     
    Its deadliness is not the real problem. If it was a garden-variety virus, even a deadly one, we'd know how to handle it.

    This thing isn't a flu. It's similar to a common cold, except this time different, in very strange and unprecedented ways.

    Its novelty is what's scaring the powers-that-be shitless. (Also giving credence to the theory that the virus is a bioterror/bioerror incident, and not natural.)

    P.S. The people I know (under 40) who had it say the primary symptoms they felt are the worst fatigue they've ever felt for two weeks.

  134. @Dumbo
    @128


    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?

     

    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?

    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.

    Whenever I see national parks I always ask myself, are all those trees really necessary? Couldn’t we just digitise them? I’m sure there are plenty of videos of trees on youtube. Forests look kinda dangerous to me. Aren’t there bears and stuff in forests? There’s really no need for people to ever leave their homes. If you can order home delivery pizza online and you have wifi you can have all the friends you need on social media and if you have pornhub as well you don’t ever need to leave Mom’s basement.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.

    It’s very much like the postmodernists’ idea of hyper-reality. There’s no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it’s real. Actual reality doesn’t exist.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @dfordoom


    It’s very much like the postmodernists’ idea of hyper-reality. There’s no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it’s real. Actual reality doesn’t exist.
     
    Like all post-modernity, this is return to ancient tradition.

    The chinese were there first when they asked: What is the difference between beautiful garden that was destroyed long ago, and beautiful garden that never existed?
    What makes reality "real"?

    http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/features.php?searchterm=013_zikai.inc&issue=013

    In his 'Record of the Garden of Nothingness', the Ming writer Liu Shilong describes the efforts of a certain Liu Yuhua to create a garden-retreat of his own far from the clamour of worldy affairs. He notes that all the famous gardens of the past like Shi Chong's legendary Golden Valley Garden had been devastated with the passage of time, 'nothing remains of [such splendid places] but words on paper. Thus even if [Yuhua] was to build a magnificent garden like that, countless generations from now all that would survive is nothingness....' Liu decides therefore to fabricate a Garden of Nothingness, a place built for eternity; it is to be a garden of immutable beauty, a lexical pleasance, for it is a demesne that exists only on paper.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @IYI
    @dfordoom

    Don't you remember that maybe two months ago, our host, Mr Karlin himself, explained that we live in a simulation that will soon become weird because it will run out of gigabytes? For him, shit was virtual anyway. It's like Bishop Berkeley, but you still have to buy HDDs.

  135. @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry, @dfordoom

    Still they stopped the epidemic in Vietnam, with only a fraction of the resources available to first world countries.

    Competent government with very limited resources is better than incompetent government with unlimited resources.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  136. @dfordoom
    @Dumbo



    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.
     
    Whenever I see national parks I always ask myself, are all those trees really necessary? Couldn't we just digitise them? I'm sure there are plenty of videos of trees on youtube. Forests look kinda dangerous to me. Aren't there bears and stuff in forests? There's really no need for people to ever leave their homes. If you can order home delivery pizza online and you have wifi you can have all the friends you need on social media and if you have pornhub as well you don't ever need to leave Mom's basement.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.
     
    It's very much like the postmodernists' idea of hyper-reality. There's no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it's real. Actual reality doesn't exist.

    Replies: @another anon, @IYI

    It’s very much like the postmodernists’ idea of hyper-reality. There’s no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it’s real. Actual reality doesn’t exist.

    Like all post-modernity, this is return to ancient tradition.

    The chinese were there first when they asked: What is the difference between beautiful garden that was destroyed long ago, and beautiful garden that never existed?
    What makes reality “real”?

    http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/features.php?searchterm=013_zikai.inc&issue=013

    In his ‘Record of the Garden of Nothingness’, the Ming writer Liu Shilong describes the efforts of a certain Liu Yuhua to create a garden-retreat of his own far from the clamour of worldy affairs. He notes that all the famous gardens of the past like Shi Chong’s legendary Golden Valley Garden had been devastated with the passage of time, ‘nothing remains of [such splendid places] but words on paper. Thus even if [Yuhua] was to build a magnificent garden like that, countless generations from now all that would survive is nothingness….’ Liu decides therefore to fabricate a Garden of Nothingness, a place built for eternity; it is to be a garden of immutable beauty, a lexical pleasance, for it is a demesne that exists only on paper.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @another anon

    Lol, thanks.

    Yes, post-modernism has certain affinities with most ancient traditions, and in fact the "hard" realism of modern times is what is unusual - and philosophically - and scientifically - indefensible, and believed in for psychological reasons.

    Reality - which we can't really know - is much weirder than modern thinking allows for.

    Much of the "misery" and pessimism that began afflicting the West in the 19th century, and that was written about so extensively by the classic novelists, poets, and philosophers of the time, and that led so many Western adventurers to turn their back on their culture and seek exotic climes, was rooted in this belief in "hard" realism (materialism).

    Post-modernism is a necessary "loosening up" stage where we free our selves from the prison of "hard" reality - it is only a stage though, but a hopeful one.

  137. @Thomm
    @Mr. Hack


    These are normal processes and one would hope that promote good inter-ethnic relations.
     
    You are absolutely correct.

    At the same time, White Trashionalists in the US are adamant that assimilation never happens. To this day, they insist that Jews are not white. This is something that, if mentioned to Ron Unz, drives him to madness, since he is adamant that Jews were always considered 'white' in America. The truth is, when Poles, Italians, and even Irish were new in the US, they were not quite considered 'white' in a social sense.

    Assimilation happens faster in descending order of the following traits :

    i) Similar appearance (Poles assimilating into Ukrainian society, etc.).
    ii) Similar economic competence of the new group relative to the host population (leading to intermarriage)
    iii) Similar religion (e.g. Irish marrying Italians, and both marrying Mexican-Americans in the US).

    If neither i) nor ii) are true, it is very hard for a minority population to fully assimilate (e.g. blacks in the US).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Yet, they are assimilating. I can remember in my childhood when blacks (they were called “Negroes” then) looked much closer to their African counterparts: much darker complexions, curlier hair, wider nostrils etc;, and not all due to cosmetic surgery like Michael Jackson. The sound of their speech was much different back then too, and I don’t mean just some additional slang words either. I’m not sure how this trend will continue though, as so many of the new imports from Africa are from Somalia. Locally born blacks even consider the Somalians as being too rusticated and wild for their tastes! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    should be:

    "and the changes that you see today are not all due to cosmetic surgery, like in Michael Jackson's case. "

  138. @Mr. Hack
    @Thomm

    Yet, they are assimilating. I can remember in my childhood when blacks (they were called "Negroes" then) looked much closer to their African counterparts: much darker complexions, curlier hair, wider nostrils etc;, and not all due to cosmetic surgery like Michael Jackson. The sound of their speech was much different back then too, and I don't mean just some additional slang words either. I'm not sure how this trend will continue though, as so many of the new imports from Africa are from Somalia. Locally born blacks even consider the Somalians as being too rusticated and wild for their tastes! :-)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    should be:

    “and the changes that you see today are not all due to cosmetic surgery, like in Michael Jackson’s case. ”

  139. You ever heard of anything but a completely dysfunctional black government before, neither have I. What matters is demographics first, you can’t have discussion of big vs small government (and other such debates) when you have the wrong demographics.

    • Replies: @128
    @neutral

    For an East Asian government, China and the Wuhan government brain trust seemed to have really messed up its initial response which caused this to become a global pandemic, honorable mention for Abe-san also. Plus all of this crap may have been due to a lab accident.

    Replies: @neutral

  140. @neutral
    You ever heard of anything but a completely dysfunctional black government before, neither have I. What matters is demographics first, you can't have discussion of big vs small government (and other such debates) when you have the wrong demographics.

    Replies: @128

    For an East Asian government, China and the Wuhan government brain trust seemed to have really messed up its initial response which caused this to become a global pandemic, honorable mention for Abe-san also. Plus all of this crap may have been due to a lab accident.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @128

    I don't see any policy ever working to ever halt something like Corona virus spreading. If a patient zero only displays symptoms after 10 days or so, that means it has already spread too far to ever contain globally. The only way it could be contained in any one country is if that country closed down all contacts to the outside world, before the virus is even detected, and this is not just tourism, this includes all halting diplomatic staff movement, all workers in port cities, etc.

    I can't see how this virus would not have spread to the world had it started in any country, even North Korea. I am definitely not a pro globalist, but the speed of travel means that these things are practically impossible to ever contain in one location.

  141. 128 says:

    Plus the Chinese government did not place an immediate outbound flight ban to prevent the virus from spreading. Contrary to what people here think, I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @128


    I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?
     
    The US government could have done several things which it didn’t. It could’ve organized mass testing capacity, just in case. It was spectacularly unable to test even a few thousand people by the time the outbreak was clearly under way. The lack of test kits was a massive failure. The lack of PPE for healthcare workers and other officials was another. Masks were unavailable both for the general public and for the hospitals. I’m pretty sure that the US federal government could have done way better with the massive resources at its disposal. Even when started, mass procurement was disorganized, with states trying to outbid each other for these. It looks like no one thought about the need to organize mass supplies for these. The same is true of ventilators (though it now seems they don’t help that much), and similar. Simply based on what we knew in late January the USA government could’ve organized an effort to procure all these, and requested funding from Congress for this (I guess that it has some reserves in the budget for emergencies - could’ve used those until Congress provided funding), along with emergency powers for a possible pandemic. Even regarding rules of quarantine powers could at least have been requested, for example to make breaking of quarantine rules a federal offense. Congress may not have provided any of those, but then Pelosi would be to blame.

    The only thing the US federal government did okay was the relatively early closing of the border. It could’ve started at least checking body temperatures of all passengers way earlier. (It was only done initially for passengers from Wuhan, when already it could be known that other Chinese provinces, and possibly other countries, were or could be involved.) The closing of air traffic was done in a chaotic manner, though I’m not sure how much better it could’ve happened. I guess everyone saw the scenes of huge crowds of people crammed together at the airports, including passport control, without face masks or any other pieces of PPE. Maybe it would have helped if it wasn’t a surprise to all involved, with no plan prepared. Preparing plans for emergencies costs little, and was clearly not done.

    I’m sure we could think about many more points.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @128

  142. I took my dogs to Richmond Park today just to spite you, Dmitry. Only once did I come within ten metres of a stranger.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Kent Nationalist

    Am just off for my walk in Richmond Park now.

  143. @128
    @neutral

    For an East Asian government, China and the Wuhan government brain trust seemed to have really messed up its initial response which caused this to become a global pandemic, honorable mention for Abe-san also. Plus all of this crap may have been due to a lab accident.

    Replies: @neutral

    I don’t see any policy ever working to ever halt something like Corona virus spreading. If a patient zero only displays symptoms after 10 days or so, that means it has already spread too far to ever contain globally. The only way it could be contained in any one country is if that country closed down all contacts to the outside world, before the virus is even detected, and this is not just tourism, this includes all halting diplomatic staff movement, all workers in port cities, etc.

    I can’t see how this virus would not have spread to the world had it started in any country, even North Korea. I am definitely not a pro globalist, but the speed of travel means that these things are practically impossible to ever contain in one location.

  144. @another anon
    @dfordoom


    It’s very much like the postmodernists’ idea of hyper-reality. There’s no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it’s real. Actual reality doesn’t exist.
     
    Like all post-modernity, this is return to ancient tradition.

    The chinese were there first when they asked: What is the difference between beautiful garden that was destroyed long ago, and beautiful garden that never existed?
    What makes reality "real"?

    http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/features.php?searchterm=013_zikai.inc&issue=013

    In his 'Record of the Garden of Nothingness', the Ming writer Liu Shilong describes the efforts of a certain Liu Yuhua to create a garden-retreat of his own far from the clamour of worldy affairs. He notes that all the famous gardens of the past like Shi Chong's legendary Golden Valley Garden had been devastated with the passage of time, 'nothing remains of [such splendid places] but words on paper. Thus even if [Yuhua] was to build a magnificent garden like that, countless generations from now all that would survive is nothingness....' Liu decides therefore to fabricate a Garden of Nothingness, a place built for eternity; it is to be a garden of immutable beauty, a lexical pleasance, for it is a demesne that exists only on paper.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Lol, thanks.

    Yes, post-modernism has certain affinities with most ancient traditions, and in fact the “hard” realism of modern times is what is unusual – and philosophically – and scientifically – indefensible, and believed in for psychological reasons.

    Reality – which we can’t really know – is much weirder than modern thinking allows for.

    Much of the “misery” and pessimism that began afflicting the West in the 19th century, and that was written about so extensively by the classic novelists, poets, and philosophers of the time, and that led so many Western adventurers to turn their back on their culture and seek exotic climes, was rooted in this belief in “hard” realism (materialism).

    Post-modernism is a necessary “loosening up” stage where we free our selves from the prison of “hard” reality – it is only a stage though, but a hopeful one.

  145. @adreadline

    I would further note that the only columnist here who energetically propounded a theory that turned out to be wrong, and kept doing so long after it became obvious to everyone but the most obstinate, no longer seems to be reprinted here.
     
    That was quick to be proven wrong. I'll just wonder aloud if him ceasing being reprinted had anything to do with it, or if he admitted his hypothesis is conclusively bunk as of now. One apparently simply doesn't concede he was full of shit. Some ideas: he could argue that in fact, the Asian percentage of the population in the US, or in NYC, is much higher than reported (secret Asians) or that moribund Chinese and other Asians are coming to the US just to add to the Wuflu case and death count (death tourism), or simply that most of the million diagnosed American cases (and the deaths) are misatributted or fake (easiest one), or all of the above, or something.

    And Mr. Karlin need not worry about catching Corona-chan. I have it in good authority (someone on the internet told me, forgot whom) it only affects 5'6'' feminist betas with gynecomastia and low muscle tone.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @MEH 0910, @David, @Fran Macadam

    his ceasing and forgot who

    • Thanks: adreadline
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @David

    Grammatik macht frei!

  146. As an aside, will the 2nd Amendment work against an invader or government who is willing to use Mongol or Roman tactics of counterinsurgency?

  147. What proportion of the Chechen population owned firearms in 1999?

  148. @dfordoom
    @Dumbo



    tourism could probably be replaced by webcams?
     
    Sure, and why not replace real sex by web porn? Oh wait, that has already happened.
     
    Whenever I see national parks I always ask myself, are all those trees really necessary? Couldn't we just digitise them? I'm sure there are plenty of videos of trees on youtube. Forests look kinda dangerous to me. Aren't there bears and stuff in forests? There's really no need for people to ever leave their homes. If you can order home delivery pizza online and you have wifi you can have all the friends you need on social media and if you have pornhub as well you don't ever need to leave Mom's basement.

    The level of autism at Unz is something to behold.
     
    It's very much like the postmodernists' idea of hyper-reality. There's no difference between reality and a simulation of reality. Unz Review shows us what a world of hyper-reality would be like. Everything is real if you believe it's real. Actual reality doesn't exist.

    Replies: @another anon, @IYI

    Don’t you remember that maybe two months ago, our host, Mr Karlin himself, explained that we live in a simulation that will soon become weird because it will run out of gigabytes? For him, shit was virtual anyway. It’s like Bishop Berkeley, but you still have to buy HDDs.

    • LOL: utu, reiner Tor
  149. @Dmitry
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard


    asymptomatic 47% against

     

    High rate of asymptomatic a good sign about how much mass testing there is, and that the epidemic is not as bad as it looks in the spreadsheet. So, dramatic figures in Russia are more a result that a larger proportion of the infected people are identified.

    However, I'm not sure how useful mass testing without connecting to policies to remove the infected person from the population, can be. In countries like Israel and China - people who has a positive coronavirus test result, are moved to isolation hotels, for quarantine. But in Russia, this test result is just a piece of information given to the person, and relies on the person to be responsible in self-isolating themselves afterwards.

    In addition, the advantage of mass testing is a surveillance of the epidemic, such as in South Korea - but in Russia, this surveillance does not always seem to connect to quarantine policies. There are cities where there is no epidemic, which still have wasted a month of self-isolation (despite good surveillance that there was no epidemic there).

    Authorities are copying successful policies of other countries, but without exploiting them in way which those other countries have, or with an indication of a coherent strategy.

    And yet in the USSR, there had been the world's most effective, coherent and intelligent, anti-epidemic state capacity.


    Add that into further increases as the other regions started with the virus later and are no

     

    There's no justification for the lack of quarantine of Moscow in March and of not quarantining all returning travellers into isolation hotels in Moscow. Then whole regions were lockdowned for April, even when the only infected people were openly sent from airports in Moscow by Rospotrebnadzor to their home cities a few days before. It is like something from the film "Idiocracy".

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    I think they just assumed that health care systems in Western Europe would perform much better.

    52 deaths in Moscow today, 2 bad stats yesterday in that deaths were greater outside of Moscow for the first time…. and deaths were lower for the day in Germany ( though that should not be too surprising given the respective stages of the virus in both countries)

    If deaths tomorrow are at about 100 or lower tomorrow then we can still call it as in the ftplateau region. 120+ deaths and then it is probably not.

    If we are in a position to restart after 12th May, then that is a very good result. We started (lesser) restrictive measures about 3 weeks to a month after most of Europe, plus with the May holidays and many having long holidays in this period anyway…. only 3 working days would have been lost from the 2 week extension of “non-working weeks”. Of course the people whose businesses rely on people enjoying their holidays are in bad position…. but overall effect on economy not too bad. Officials have given false hope talking about us continuously being 2 weeks away from the end throughout each week of the first “non working” week…. now they are going the other way and saying we are not anywhere near the peak!

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Case fatality rate is around 1% currently, which is very low by international standards - and indicates a high amount of testing and that people are identified early. Likely this will still increase significantly in the next weeks, as it lags.


    https://i.imgur.com/pjLbrOA.png

  150. From a single construction site, there are now 1680 workers identified who were infected with coronavirus in Belokamenka (Murmansk region).

    These infected are contract workers for Novatek (oligarch Leonid Mikhelson), and constitute most of the people who have been infected Murmansk region.

    The government had to build an emergency hospital for these infected workers, and then they refused to build a second emergency hospital as it was too expensive.

    So now Novatek has hired a giant cruise ferry, which they are going to use it perhaps as a hotel, so workers will have more living space, or some kind of hospital.

    This is probably not a good indication for the second wave in autumn, as temperatures in the region are around 5° currently. Workers crowd close together in this environment, with temporary housing.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Dmitry

    Hospital ships were quickly replaced with outdoor tents around Boston Harbour during the Spanish flu. Doubt there will be a second wave for those who experienced the first, it is dying out now and looks comparable to a nasty flu season, the economy on the other hand...

  151. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    I think they just assumed that health care systems in Western Europe would perform much better.

    52 deaths in Moscow today, 2 bad stats yesterday in that deaths were greater outside of Moscow for the first time.... and deaths were lower for the day in Germany ( though that should not be too surprising given the respective stages of the virus in both countries)

    If deaths tomorrow are at about 100 or lower tomorrow then we can still call it as in the ftplateau region. 120+ deaths and then it is probably not.

    If we are in a position to restart after 12th May, then that is a very good result. We started (lesser) restrictive measures about 3 weeks to a month after most of Europe, plus with the May holidays and many having long holidays in this period anyway.... only 3 working days would have been lost from the 2 week extension of "non-working weeks". Of course the people whose businesses rely on people enjoying their holidays are in bad position.... but overall effect on economy not too bad. Officials have given false hope talking about us continuously being 2 weeks away from the end throughout each week of the first "non working" week.... now they are going the other way and saying we are not anywhere near the peak!

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Case fatality rate is around 1% currently, which is very low by international standards – and indicates a high amount of testing and that people are identified early. Likely this will still increase significantly in the next weeks, as it lags.

  152. @RadicalCenter
    @Dmitry

    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu. Why do you assume that congregating is dangerous for the rest of us?

    Apparently it is still the case that just repeating something ad nauseam is enough to get most people assuming that it must be true. Every government and corporate and media email and website refer ominously and dramatically to “The Age of COVID-19” without any reliable numbers on fatality rate for non-elderly people who actually tested positive for this virus and did not have a major comorbidity.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @anonymous coward

    Infection fatality rate was estimated at 0,66% by Lancelet. This was based on Chinese data, so of course it could be wildly wrong.
    https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930243-7&#8242

    Other early estimated were 0,6%
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32234121

    Italian researchers are estimating much higher infection fatality rate of 1,29%, from Italy.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20070912v1.full.pdf

    Italy has second oldest population in the world so that could be part of the explanation for their high fatality rate – although it still sounds far too high as an estimate.

    Epidemiologists in the Ministry of Health (Russia), are claiming it is around 0,2% for people under 40 years old, over 60 is 3,6% and over 80 is 15%. https://rg.ru/2020/05/04/v-minzdrave-rasskazali-zhdat-li-vtoruiu-i-tretiu-volny-covid-19.html

    Considering that more than 70 doctors and nurses have died with coronavirus already in Russia and the first wave of the epidemic is not yet at the plateau – if it is “just ordinary flu”, then the media should be criticized for underreporting the dangers of ordinary flu (if dozens of doctors would die every few weeks from working with flu patients?).

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    I heard one official say 70 have died.... but is it actually true? I have read individually about 15 doctors and nurses who have died, infections of medical people about 7-8% for all the cases in the whole country.

    100% sure that he did not say 70 have died "with" or "of" coronavirus. Maybe 70 have died since the start of the coronovirus crisis... of course stress related to dealing with coronavirus patients can be a cause ( notably 2 doctors have died from jumping out of the hospital building in the last week) - but that isn't the same thing.

    , @Jaakko Raipala
    @Dmitry

    We had lots of stories of dead medical workers and they all turned out to be bogus. Some journalist sees a doctor among the dead and doesn't check whether the dead doctor is actually working or whether it's some retired old guy in a nursing home.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  153. @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Infection fatality rate was estimated at 0,66% by Lancelet. This was based on Chinese data, so of course it could be wildly wrong.
    https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930243-7&#8242

    Other early estimated were 0,6%
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32234121

    Italian researchers are estimating much higher infection fatality rate of 1,29%, from Italy.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20070912v1.full.pdf

    Italy has second oldest population in the world so that could be part of the explanation for their high fatality rate - although it still sounds far too high as an estimate.

    Epidemiologists in the Ministry of Health (Russia), are claiming it is around 0,2% for people under 40 years old, over 60 is 3,6% and over 80 is 15%. https://rg.ru/2020/05/04/v-minzdrave-rasskazali-zhdat-li-vtoruiu-i-tretiu-volny-covid-19.html


    -

    Considering that more than 70 doctors and nurses have died with coronavirus already in Russia and the first wave of the epidemic is not yet at the plateau - if it is "just ordinary flu", then the media should be criticized for underreporting the dangers of ordinary flu (if dozens of doctors would die every few weeks from working with flu patients?).

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard, @Jaakko Raipala

    I heard one official say 70 have died…. but is it actually true? I have read individually about 15 doctors and nurses who have died, infections of medical people about 7-8% for all the cases in the whole country.

    100% sure that he did not say 70 have died “with” or “of” coronavirus. Maybe 70 have died since the start of the coronovirus crisis… of course stress related to dealing with coronavirus patients can be a cause ( notably 2 doctors have died from jumping out of the hospital building in the last week) – but that isn’t the same thing.

  154. They want to open a cooperative travel program between New Zealand, Czech Republic, Israel, Denmark, Greece, Australia and Austria. These all seem to be little countries where they believe that coronavirus infections rates are falling, so it would be relatively safer to open tourism between them, and try to save their economies.

    To rescue the tourism sector, they would presumably need to market to the large “source market” countries like Germany, Japan, Poland, and China.

    However, opening border restrictions to large countries like China before the USA, probably that would anger Trump too much. So, perhaps such little countries will only open to larger countries, when USA ends the first wave. (Tourism-based economies like Greece will still be a disaster this summer).

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    Saint Petersburg has about the same size population as Finland, Denmark and Norway....... but SP experienced much less coronavirus cases, and a small fraction of the deaths.... even though as an intensely populated city, it should be more vulnerable. Many in SP would have been travelling to the Scandinavian countries over the winter holiday period also- far more than muscovites who tend to go south instead!

  155. @Dmitry
    They want to open a cooperative travel program between New Zealand, Czech Republic, Israel, Denmark, Greece, Australia and Austria. These all seem to be little countries where they believe that coronavirus infections rates are falling, so it would be relatively safer to open tourism between them, and try to save their economies.

    To rescue the tourism sector, they would presumably need to market to the large "source market" countries like Germany, Japan, Poland, and China.

    However, opening border restrictions to large countries like China before the USA, probably that would anger Trump too much. So, perhaps such little countries will only open to larger countries, when USA ends the first wave. (Tourism-based economies like Greece will still be a disaster this summer).


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6DuuOB44N0

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Saint Petersburg has about the same size population as Finland, Denmark and Norway……. but SP experienced much less coronavirus cases, and a small fraction of the deaths…. even though as an intensely populated city, it should be more vulnerable. Many in SP would have been travelling to the Scandinavian countries over the winter holiday period also- far more than muscovites who tend to go south instead!

  156. @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Infection fatality rate was estimated at 0,66% by Lancelet. This was based on Chinese data, so of course it could be wildly wrong.
    https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2820%2930243-7&#8242

    Other early estimated were 0,6%
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32234121

    Italian researchers are estimating much higher infection fatality rate of 1,29%, from Italy.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20070912v1.full.pdf

    Italy has second oldest population in the world so that could be part of the explanation for their high fatality rate - although it still sounds far too high as an estimate.

    Epidemiologists in the Ministry of Health (Russia), are claiming it is around 0,2% for people under 40 years old, over 60 is 3,6% and over 80 is 15%. https://rg.ru/2020/05/04/v-minzdrave-rasskazali-zhdat-li-vtoruiu-i-tretiu-volny-covid-19.html


    -

    Considering that more than 70 doctors and nurses have died with coronavirus already in Russia and the first wave of the epidemic is not yet at the plateau - if it is "just ordinary flu", then the media should be criticized for underreporting the dangers of ordinary flu (if dozens of doctors would die every few weeks from working with flu patients?).

    Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard, @Jaakko Raipala

    We had lots of stories of dead medical workers and they all turned out to be bogus. Some journalist sees a doctor among the dead and doesn’t check whether the dead doctor is actually working or whether it’s some retired old guy in a nursing home.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Jaakko Raipala


    "The number of doctors who have died because of Covid-19 is 100 — perhaps even 101 at the moment, unfortunately," a spokesperson for the association, known as the FNOMCeO, told AFP.

    The toll includes retired doctors the government began calling in a month ago to help fight a coronavirus that has officially claimed a world-topping 17,669 lives in Italy.
     

    Most HCP with COVID-19 (6,760, 90%) were not hospitalized; however, severe outcomes, including 27 deaths, occurred across all age groups; deaths most frequently occurred in HCP aged ≥65 years.
     
    I’m sure there must be a worldwide conspiracy involving Xi, Putin, the Italian doctors’ association, and the CDC.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

  157. @128
    Plus the Chinese government did not place an immediate outbound flight ban to prevent the virus from spreading. Contrary to what people here think, I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?

    The US government could have done several things which it didn’t. It could’ve organized mass testing capacity, just in case. It was spectacularly unable to test even a few thousand people by the time the outbreak was clearly under way. The lack of test kits was a massive failure. The lack of PPE for healthcare workers and other officials was another. Masks were unavailable both for the general public and for the hospitals. I’m pretty sure that the US federal government could have done way better with the massive resources at its disposal. Even when started, mass procurement was disorganized, with states trying to outbid each other for these. It looks like no one thought about the need to organize mass supplies for these. The same is true of ventilators (though it now seems they don’t help that much), and similar. Simply based on what we knew in late January the USA government could’ve organized an effort to procure all these, and requested funding from Congress for this (I guess that it has some reserves in the budget for emergencies – could’ve used those until Congress provided funding), along with emergency powers for a possible pandemic. Even regarding rules of quarantine powers could at least have been requested, for example to make breaking of quarantine rules a federal offense. Congress may not have provided any of those, but then Pelosi would be to blame.

    The only thing the US federal government did okay was the relatively early closing of the border. It could’ve started at least checking body temperatures of all passengers way earlier. (It was only done initially for passengers from Wuhan, when already it could be known that other Chinese provinces, and possibly other countries, were or could be involved.) The closing of air traffic was done in a chaotic manner, though I’m not sure how much better it could’ve happened. I guess everyone saw the scenes of huge crowds of people crammed together at the airports, including passport control, without face masks or any other pieces of PPE. Maybe it would have helped if it wasn’t a surprise to all involved, with no plan prepared. Preparing plans for emergencies costs little, and was clearly not done.

    I’m sure we could think about many more points.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @reiner Tor

    WASHINGTON—Lambasting the rival superpower for what he called “reckless” and “irresponsible” behavior, President Donald Trump publicly blamed China Monday for acting too late in coordinating the U.S. Covid-19 response. “China knew our nation was facing a deadly threat as early as January, and yet they did nothing to develop a plan we could use to slow the spread of the virus,” said Trump, noting thousands of American lives could have been saved if Chinese president Xi Jinping had only taken the threat seriously from the start and implemented a strategy to reduce the negative impact on the U.S. economy. “The Chinese government just kept waiting and waiting, sitting on their hands as the outbreak spread through the U.S. rather than leading our nation in the way it so desperately needed. States shouldn’t be left out to dry, putting together piecemeal pandemic responses. What else is a strong Communist Party for? And now they’re trying to cover it up, claiming the U.S. isn’t their responsibility.” At press time, Trump added the administration had obtained new intelligence suggesting the Chinese government had engineered coronavirus in a lab in Washington.

    https://www.theonion.com/trump-blames-china-for-acting-too-late-in-coordinating-1843243502

    , @128
    @reiner Tor

    I think the US is just willing to treat its workers a more ruthlessly and exploit them more, part of the reason why it is a superpower, US GDP per capita is 20 percent more than well run European economies like Austria, Germany, and the Netherlands, not to mention countries like France, even though they are not really that more efficient. US workers also work a lot longer and get hardly any vacation time compared to Europeans, but the upside is that they produce more widgets. If the US was more lax with its workers and treated them better, and everybody gets a month off per year, total GDP would be a fourth to a fifth smaller than it is today, which is a very big amount, especially when it is caught in a rivalry with China. US workers are fungible commodities and you can always get more and more to replace and ones that are worn out.

  158. @David
    @adreadline

    his ceasing and forgot who

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Grammatik macht frei!

  159. @Jaakko Raipala
    @Dmitry

    We had lots of stories of dead medical workers and they all turned out to be bogus. Some journalist sees a doctor among the dead and doesn't check whether the dead doctor is actually working or whether it's some retired old guy in a nursing home.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    “The number of doctors who have died because of Covid-19 is 100 — perhaps even 101 at the moment, unfortunately,” a spokesperson for the association, known as the FNOMCeO, told AFP.

    The toll includes retired doctors the government began calling in a month ago to help fight a coronavirus that has officially claimed a world-topping 17,669 lives in Italy.

    Most HCP with COVID-19 (6,760, 90%) were not hospitalized; however, severe outcomes, including 27 deaths, occurred across all age groups; deaths most frequently occurred in HCP aged ≥65 years.

    I’m sure there must be a worldwide conspiracy involving Xi, Putin, the Italian doctors’ association, and the CDC.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @reiner Tor

    "The toll includes retired doctors" "over 65 years old"

    That's the part of the story that hasn't been reported so much when the press screams about dead doctors. It's a good example of why we have such a panic - people have been mislead into thinking that there's some deadly doomsday bug out there actually killing young medical workers and that's just not true.

    I have no idea what they are doing bringing retired people to fight a virus that's actually dangerous to them. It seems like Italy is one of those countries that needs to be punished for misleading people.

    Replies: @AP

  160. @reiner Tor
    @Jaakko Raipala


    "The number of doctors who have died because of Covid-19 is 100 — perhaps even 101 at the moment, unfortunately," a spokesperson for the association, known as the FNOMCeO, told AFP.

    The toll includes retired doctors the government began calling in a month ago to help fight a coronavirus that has officially claimed a world-topping 17,669 lives in Italy.
     

    Most HCP with COVID-19 (6,760, 90%) were not hospitalized; however, severe outcomes, including 27 deaths, occurred across all age groups; deaths most frequently occurred in HCP aged ≥65 years.
     
    I’m sure there must be a worldwide conspiracy involving Xi, Putin, the Italian doctors’ association, and the CDC.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    “The toll includes retired doctors” “over 65 years old”

    That’s the part of the story that hasn’t been reported so much when the press screams about dead doctors. It’s a good example of why we have such a panic – people have been mislead into thinking that there’s some deadly doomsday bug out there actually killing young medical workers and that’s just not true.

    I have no idea what they are doing bringing retired people to fight a virus that’s actually dangerous to them. It seems like Italy is one of those countries that needs to be punished for misleading people.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Jaakko Raipala

    On my unit (I will not be specific about the type of medical setting - AK knows) half the patients had symptoms and were tested positive, as did about 1/3 of the staff (presumably those who were asymptomatic were also positive, given the proximity and poor usage of PPE). A young person in their twenties just had a light fever for a day, others struggled for a few weeks. There was one serious case requiring transfer to ICU. A very healthy nurse in her late thirties told me that she had never in her life been as sick as she was with this virus, although she did not leave home when sick. Overall this has been much worse than any flu outbreak (although most everyone gets vaccinated for flu so that is not surprising). But there have not been any deaths, thank God. Total N = 3-4 dozen people. All but two people are under sixty, however there are a couple obese people.

    There have been several deaths in another unit full of elderly people, however, which was shocking.

    We have one elderly nurse (over 75!) who wisely stopped working and hasn't been back. She has been safe and okay at home.

    So my overall impression based on personal anecdotal experience is that for people under 60 it is easily the worst "flu" ever seen but is not of a different category than flu in terms of deadliness. For elderly people, however, this is a truly unprecedented killer.

    Replies: @128

  161. @reiner Tor
    @128


    I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?
     
    The US government could have done several things which it didn’t. It could’ve organized mass testing capacity, just in case. It was spectacularly unable to test even a few thousand people by the time the outbreak was clearly under way. The lack of test kits was a massive failure. The lack of PPE for healthcare workers and other officials was another. Masks were unavailable both for the general public and for the hospitals. I’m pretty sure that the US federal government could have done way better with the massive resources at its disposal. Even when started, mass procurement was disorganized, with states trying to outbid each other for these. It looks like no one thought about the need to organize mass supplies for these. The same is true of ventilators (though it now seems they don’t help that much), and similar. Simply based on what we knew in late January the USA government could’ve organized an effort to procure all these, and requested funding from Congress for this (I guess that it has some reserves in the budget for emergencies - could’ve used those until Congress provided funding), along with emergency powers for a possible pandemic. Even regarding rules of quarantine powers could at least have been requested, for example to make breaking of quarantine rules a federal offense. Congress may not have provided any of those, but then Pelosi would be to blame.

    The only thing the US federal government did okay was the relatively early closing of the border. It could’ve started at least checking body temperatures of all passengers way earlier. (It was only done initially for passengers from Wuhan, when already it could be known that other Chinese provinces, and possibly other countries, were or could be involved.) The closing of air traffic was done in a chaotic manner, though I’m not sure how much better it could’ve happened. I guess everyone saw the scenes of huge crowds of people crammed together at the airports, including passport control, without face masks or any other pieces of PPE. Maybe it would have helped if it wasn’t a surprise to all involved, with no plan prepared. Preparing plans for emergencies costs little, and was clearly not done.

    I’m sure we could think about many more points.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @128

    WASHINGTON—Lambasting the rival superpower for what he called “reckless” and “irresponsible” behavior, President Donald Trump publicly blamed China Monday for acting too late in coordinating the U.S. Covid-19 response. “China knew our nation was facing a deadly threat as early as January, and yet they did nothing to develop a plan we could use to slow the spread of the virus,” said Trump, noting thousands of American lives could have been saved if Chinese president Xi Jinping had only taken the threat seriously from the start and implemented a strategy to reduce the negative impact on the U.S. economy. “The Chinese government just kept waiting and waiting, sitting on their hands as the outbreak spread through the U.S. rather than leading our nation in the way it so desperately needed. States shouldn’t be left out to dry, putting together piecemeal pandemic responses. What else is a strong Communist Party for? And now they’re trying to cover it up, claiming the U.S. isn’t their responsibility.” At press time, Trump added the administration had obtained new intelligence suggesting the Chinese government had engineered coronavirus in a lab in Washington.

    https://www.theonion.com/trump-blames-china-for-acting-too-late-in-coordinating-1843243502

  162. 128 says:
    @reiner Tor
    @128


    I think the US government acted as well as it did, considering US society, politics, and culture, or does anyone expect here the US government to shoot people just to impose quarantine, although a LAV25 would have made short work of those armed anti-lockdown protesters. Because if US police tried to arrest them a firefight with several dead people would have happened for sure, do people want to see a civil war breaking out in the US over quarantine violations here?
     
    The US government could have done several things which it didn’t. It could’ve organized mass testing capacity, just in case. It was spectacularly unable to test even a few thousand people by the time the outbreak was clearly under way. The lack of test kits was a massive failure. The lack of PPE for healthcare workers and other officials was another. Masks were unavailable both for the general public and for the hospitals. I’m pretty sure that the US federal government could have done way better with the massive resources at its disposal. Even when started, mass procurement was disorganized, with states trying to outbid each other for these. It looks like no one thought about the need to organize mass supplies for these. The same is true of ventilators (though it now seems they don’t help that much), and similar. Simply based on what we knew in late January the USA government could’ve organized an effort to procure all these, and requested funding from Congress for this (I guess that it has some reserves in the budget for emergencies - could’ve used those until Congress provided funding), along with emergency powers for a possible pandemic. Even regarding rules of quarantine powers could at least have been requested, for example to make breaking of quarantine rules a federal offense. Congress may not have provided any of those, but then Pelosi would be to blame.

    The only thing the US federal government did okay was the relatively early closing of the border. It could’ve started at least checking body temperatures of all passengers way earlier. (It was only done initially for passengers from Wuhan, when already it could be known that other Chinese provinces, and possibly other countries, were or could be involved.) The closing of air traffic was done in a chaotic manner, though I’m not sure how much better it could’ve happened. I guess everyone saw the scenes of huge crowds of people crammed together at the airports, including passport control, without face masks or any other pieces of PPE. Maybe it would have helped if it wasn’t a surprise to all involved, with no plan prepared. Preparing plans for emergencies costs little, and was clearly not done.

    I’m sure we could think about many more points.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @128

    I think the US is just willing to treat its workers a more ruthlessly and exploit them more, part of the reason why it is a superpower, US GDP per capita is 20 percent more than well run European economies like Austria, Germany, and the Netherlands, not to mention countries like France, even though they are not really that more efficient. US workers also work a lot longer and get hardly any vacation time compared to Europeans, but the upside is that they produce more widgets. If the US was more lax with its workers and treated them better, and everybody gets a month off per year, total GDP would be a fourth to a fifth smaller than it is today, which is a very big amount, especially when it is caught in a rivalry with China. US workers are fungible commodities and you can always get more and more to replace and ones that are worn out.

  163. Patriotism is not the simplest concept to define, but when I see the look of this soon to be opened Cathedral of the Armed Forces in Moscow region, then I know that the sensation of national pride felt by any normal Russian because of the cathedral is infinitely larger than anyone from any other country, be it a nothing, fake state or a proper one as Germany, Italy, US, UK etcetera, can feel in their own country. I can’t believe how right they have got it.

    An incredibly stunning building, mixing old and modern styles (normally I would be the biggest snob on modern interpretations on classically based buildings…… but this cathedral is simply perfect)

    It is perfect in showcasing the greatness of Russian civilisation, recent past, present and of course its style is perfectly suited to being
    representive of our military.

    I’ve followed it from the beginning- even the bells made off-site. If I was pleased about it before….. I was openly salivating seeing the images of different parts of the interior.

    Perfect….. we have built a cathedral to inspire the nation and that will still be doing it in 200,300,400 years time. Can’t wait to visit it

    • Replies: @another anon
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Yup, building cathedrals is the way, as every gamer knows.

    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Cathedral

    Grand cathedral in Yamoussoukro made Ivory Coast great again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Our_Lady_of_Peace


    Length 195 metres (640 ft)
    Width 150 metres (490 ft)
    Width (nave) 55 metres (180 ft)
    Height (max) 158 metres (518 ft)
    Dome dia. (outer) 90 metres (300 ft)
     
    The Armed Forces cathedral is not so great

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cathedral_of_the_Russian_Armed_Forces


    Length 79 m (length-width)
    Height 95 m (top cross)
    Nave height 75 m (interior)
    Dome diameter (outer) 19.5 m
     
    but it will make Russia great again too, because it is perfectly designed to trigger all libs worldwide.
    What could make liberal madder than cathedral?

    Maximally based, maximally redpilled CATHEDRAL OF STALIN!


    Putin and Stalin exalted beside angels in Russia’s ‘pagan temple’
     
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-and-stalin-exalted-beside-angels-in-russias-pagan-temple-sb5ptswhq
  164. AP says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    @reiner Tor

    "The toll includes retired doctors" "over 65 years old"

    That's the part of the story that hasn't been reported so much when the press screams about dead doctors. It's a good example of why we have such a panic - people have been mislead into thinking that there's some deadly doomsday bug out there actually killing young medical workers and that's just not true.

    I have no idea what they are doing bringing retired people to fight a virus that's actually dangerous to them. It seems like Italy is one of those countries that needs to be punished for misleading people.

    Replies: @AP

    On my unit (I will not be specific about the type of medical setting – AK knows) half the patients had symptoms and were tested positive, as did about 1/3 of the staff (presumably those who were asymptomatic were also positive, given the proximity and poor usage of PPE). A young person in their twenties just had a light fever for a day, others struggled for a few weeks. There was one serious case requiring transfer to ICU. A very healthy nurse in her late thirties told me that she had never in her life been as sick as she was with this virus, although she did not leave home when sick. Overall this has been much worse than any flu outbreak (although most everyone gets vaccinated for flu so that is not surprising). But there have not been any deaths, thank God. Total N = 3-4 dozen people. All but two people are under sixty, however there are a couple obese people.

    There have been several deaths in another unit full of elderly people, however, which was shocking.

    We have one elderly nurse (over 75!) who wisely stopped working and hasn’t been back. She has been safe and okay at home.

    So my overall impression based on personal anecdotal experience is that for people under 60 it is easily the worst “flu” ever seen but is not of a different category than flu in terms of deadliness. For elderly people, however, this is a truly unprecedented killer.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @128
    @AP

    The Feds are putting flourides in the water to make you see things. This coronavirus thing seems to be the equivalent of a broken clock being right twice a day as far as the establishment is concerned?

  165. @Kent Nationalist
    I took my dogs to Richmond Park today just to spite you, Dmitry. Only once did I come within ten metres of a stranger.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Am just off for my walk in Richmond Park now.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  166. @RadicalCenter
    @Dmitry

    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu. Why do you assume that congregating is dangerous for the rest of us?

    Apparently it is still the case that just repeating something ad nauseam is enough to get most people assuming that it must be true. Every government and corporate and media email and website refer ominously and dramatically to “The Age of COVID-19” without any reliable numbers on fatality rate for non-elderly people who actually tested positive for this virus and did not have a major comorbidity.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @anonymous coward

    Well, I am still waiting for proof that this virus is much deadlier for non-elderly, non-respiratory-impaired people than a bad flu.

    Its deadliness is not the real problem. If it was a garden-variety virus, even a deadly one, we’d know how to handle it.

    This thing isn’t a flu. It’s similar to a common cold, except this time different, in very strange and unprecedented ways.

    Its novelty is what’s scaring the powers-that-be shitless. (Also giving credence to the theory that the virus is a bioterror/bioerror incident, and not natural.)

    P.S. The people I know (under 40) who had it say the primary symptoms they felt are the worst fatigue they’ve ever felt for two weeks.

  167. @Dmitry
    From a single construction site, there are now 1680 workers identified who were infected with coronavirus in Belokamenka (Murmansk region).

    These infected are contract workers for Novatek (oligarch Leonid Mikhelson), and constitute most of the people who have been infected Murmansk region.

    The government had to build an emergency hospital for these infected workers, and then they refused to build a second emergency hospital as it was too expensive.

    So now Novatek has hired a giant cruise ferry, which they are going to use it perhaps as a hotel, so workers will have more living space, or some kind of hospital.

    https://mmk.news/wp-content/uploads/Princess2-1024x768.jpg


    This is probably not a good indication for the second wave in autumn, as temperatures in the region are around 5° currently. Workers crowd close together in this environment, with temporary housing.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    Hospital ships were quickly replaced with outdoor tents around Boston Harbour during the Spanish flu. Doubt there will be a second wave for those who experienced the first, it is dying out now and looks comparable to a nasty flu season, the economy on the other hand…

  168. Znzn says:

    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent, selfish, and are too much of slobs to function well in a first world society nowadays compared to East Asians, they used to be able to compensate for that by having a slightly greater amount of inventiveness, back in the 19th to early 20th century, although once the East Asians caught on they were able to improve on things faster, like the Long Lance torpedo, optical rangefinders in WW2, Sony vs. RCA, or Toyota vs the Big Three, but now that is gone also, and now they are just lazy decadent disorganized selfish individualistic slobs.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Znzn


    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

     

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.


    nowadays compared to East Asians,... East Asians caught on

     

    I would not exaggerate too much about a "disciplined capability" of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn't generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race - and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.


    Toyota vs the Big Three,

     

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it's one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    -

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make "high end" products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them - (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world's fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @AP, @Dacian Julien Soros

  169. How would all the East Asian countries rank if you grade them on a curve, I am including Mongolia here for racial reasons, and Singapore and Vietnam for cultural reasons.

  170. @AP
    @Jaakko Raipala

    On my unit (I will not be specific about the type of medical setting - AK knows) half the patients had symptoms and were tested positive, as did about 1/3 of the staff (presumably those who were asymptomatic were also positive, given the proximity and poor usage of PPE). A young person in their twenties just had a light fever for a day, others struggled for a few weeks. There was one serious case requiring transfer to ICU. A very healthy nurse in her late thirties told me that she had never in her life been as sick as she was with this virus, although she did not leave home when sick. Overall this has been much worse than any flu outbreak (although most everyone gets vaccinated for flu so that is not surprising). But there have not been any deaths, thank God. Total N = 3-4 dozen people. All but two people are under sixty, however there are a couple obese people.

    There have been several deaths in another unit full of elderly people, however, which was shocking.

    We have one elderly nurse (over 75!) who wisely stopped working and hasn't been back. She has been safe and okay at home.

    So my overall impression based on personal anecdotal experience is that for people under 60 it is easily the worst "flu" ever seen but is not of a different category than flu in terms of deadliness. For elderly people, however, this is a truly unprecedented killer.

    Replies: @128

    The Feds are putting flourides in the water to make you see things. This coronavirus thing seems to be the equivalent of a broken clock being right twice a day as far as the establishment is concerned?

  171. @Znzn
    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent, selfish, and are too much of slobs to function well in a first world society nowadays compared to East Asians, they used to be able to compensate for that by having a slightly greater amount of inventiveness, back in the 19th to early 20th century, although once the East Asians caught on they were able to improve on things faster, like the Long Lance torpedo, optical rangefinders in WW2, Sony vs. RCA, or Toyota vs the Big Three, but now that is gone also, and now they are just lazy decadent disorganized selfish individualistic slobs.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.

    nowadays compared to East Asians,… East Asians caught on

    I would not exaggerate too much about a “disciplined capability” of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn’t generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race – and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.

    Toyota vs the Big Three,

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it’s one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make “high end” products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them – (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world’s fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    Have you compared the death rates between Korea and the UK, or Korea and the US lately? Or seen the comments of the right wing Anglo posters here or at Unz? Plus libertarianism and Austrian economics were popularized by Anglo whites. Anglos basically invented libertarianism, and made the Chinese opium addicts.

    , @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    White Anglos invented a lot of things in the modern world, like modern trains, machine guns, gatling guns, aircraft, modern ocean liners, telephones, telegraphs, mass produced cars, moderns rockets, jet engines, computers, radars, etc. Also wrote the book on successful relatively non-violent counterinsurgency tactics in the Malayan emergency and their belated victory in the 2nd Boer war.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AnonFromTN

    , @AP
    @Dmitry

    In Asia you didn’t mention Korea, which has become comparable to Japan.

    Otherwise you are probably right.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry

    , @Dacian Julien Soros
    @Dmitry

    "Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries"

    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified "healthcare workers" (read, old peoples' ass wipers). Austrians had to convince the Hungarian Orban (not to be confused with the Romanian one) to allow passage for their trains.

    Those Austrian Zoom meetings must be never ending, longer than Weihan's study hours. And who is in the mood to see their own grandparents, after a hard day's work on Slack?

    Just how old must one's grandma be when one sends her to Recycle Bin, in order to qualify to the "hard working" description?

    Replies: @songbird

  172. @Dmitry
    @Znzn


    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

     

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.


    nowadays compared to East Asians,... East Asians caught on

     

    I would not exaggerate too much about a "disciplined capability" of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn't generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race - and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.


    Toyota vs the Big Three,

     

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it's one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    -

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make "high end" products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them - (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world's fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @AP, @Dacian Julien Soros

    Have you compared the death rates between Korea and the UK, or Korea and the US lately? Or seen the comments of the right wing Anglo posters here or at Unz? Plus libertarianism and Austrian economics were popularized by Anglo whites. Anglos basically invented libertarianism, and made the Chinese opium addicts.

  173. @Dmitry
    @Znzn


    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

     

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.


    nowadays compared to East Asians,... East Asians caught on

     

    I would not exaggerate too much about a "disciplined capability" of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn't generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race - and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.


    Toyota vs the Big Three,

     

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it's one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    -

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make "high end" products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them - (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world's fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @AP, @Dacian Julien Soros

    White Anglos invented a lot of things in the modern world, like modern trains, machine guns, gatling guns, aircraft, modern ocean liners, telephones, telegraphs, mass produced cars, moderns rockets, jet engines, computers, radars, etc. Also wrote the book on successful relatively non-violent counterinsurgency tactics in the Malayan emergency and their belated victory in the 2nd Boer war.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Znzn


    gatling guns
     
    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one

    Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Znzn

    UK has just edged out Italy and became the second (after the US) country in the number of coronavirus-associated deaths. Truly, the Anglos lead the world. The only problem is, the majority of the world population does not want to move in the direction where Anglos lead. Ungrateful bastards, no doubt.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  174. @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    White Anglos invented a lot of things in the modern world, like modern trains, machine guns, gatling guns, aircraft, modern ocean liners, telephones, telegraphs, mass produced cars, moderns rockets, jet engines, computers, radars, etc. Also wrote the book on successful relatively non-violent counterinsurgency tactics in the Malayan emergency and their belated victory in the 2nd Boer war.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AnonFromTN

    gatling guns

    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one

    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    @Kent Nationalist


    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one
     
    If you are thinking of Hiram Maxim, he was not a Jew. He was born in 1840 of old Puritan stock in Maine. Puritan New Englanders were fond of Old Testament names, perhaps giving rise to the misconception. Maxim was an atheist, but told this story about himself:

    At the end of the last century the American inventor Hiram Maxim presented himself to the police in Petersburg, Russia. He was there to sell his new Maxim machine gun to the Czar.

    "Your name is Hiram. You're Jewish," said the officer.
    "I am not. My people were puritans," said Maxim.
    "Then what is your religion?"
    "I never had need of one," Maxim snorted.
    "Well, no one can stay in Russia without a religion!"
    "Very well," Maxim replied, "Put me down as a Protestant."
    "And that," he tells us, "is how I became a Protestant."
     
    https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi694.htm

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  175. @Dmitry
    @Znzn


    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

     

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.


    nowadays compared to East Asians,... East Asians caught on

     

    I would not exaggerate too much about a "disciplined capability" of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn't generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race - and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.


    Toyota vs the Big Three,

     

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it's one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    -

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make "high end" products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them - (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world's fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @AP, @Dacian Julien Soros

    In Asia you didn’t mention Korea, which has become comparable to Japan.

    Otherwise you are probably right.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    And the large town of Singapore. 😂

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    I don't know personally and haven't been in Korea - but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that - while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) - the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country's success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Mikhail, @anonymous coward

  176. @AP
    @Dmitry

    In Asia you didn’t mention Korea, which has become comparable to Japan.

    Otherwise you are probably right.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry

    And the large town of Singapore. 😂

    • LOL: AP
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/singaporelaw/images/3/35/Singapore1024x710.jpg

    Is this a City or a State ? 😉😅

  177. Here you go Anatoly:

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2020/05/05/three-russian-doctors-fall-out-of-hospital-windows-under-mysterious-circumstances-n388158

    Seems Putin is murdering all the brave heroic doctors that try to speak out about how Ruskis are dropping like flies.

    I don’t know how you guys escaped the blame for creating this virus in the first place. Someone clearly dropped the ball. Jennifer Rubin must have been too busy sheltering in place and reporting her neighbors to the police for going outside.

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
    • Troll: Znzn
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Lars Porsena

    Strange though, that a few Russian doctors working with Corona virus patients have suddenly taken to jumping out of windows?...shabby window construction, no doubt.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  178. @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    And the large town of Singapore. 😂

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

    Is this a City or a State ? 😉😅

  179. @Lars Porsena
    Here you go Anatoly:

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2020/05/05/three-russian-doctors-fall-out-of-hospital-windows-under-mysterious-circumstances-n388158

    Seems Putin is murdering all the brave heroic doctors that try to speak out about how Ruskis are dropping like flies.

    I don't know how you guys escaped the blame for creating this virus in the first place. Someone clearly dropped the ball. Jennifer Rubin must have been too busy sheltering in place and reporting her neighbors to the police for going outside.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Strange though, that a few Russian doctors working with Corona virus patients have suddenly taken to jumping out of windows?…shabby window construction, no doubt.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack

    Bloody Putler is making them do it.

    Just ask the Economist, they're a reputable news source!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  180. @Mr. Hack
    @Lars Porsena

    Strange though, that a few Russian doctors working with Corona virus patients have suddenly taken to jumping out of windows?...shabby window construction, no doubt.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Bloody Putler is making them do it.

    Just ask the Economist, they’re a reputable news source!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @anonymous coward

    All of the news has been suspect since the original "Pravda" was gutted and split up into several different versions, run by Greeks, Jews and who knows who? It used to be, that if you wanted the real unadulterated truth, you knew where to go. But today?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/RIAN_archive_669616_Wartime_city_life_-_Moscow_in_October_-_December_1941.jpg/220px-RIAN_archive_669616_Wartime_city_life_-_Moscow_in_October_-_December_1941.jpg

    "The truth shall set you free" :-)

  181. @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack

    Bloody Putler is making them do it.

    Just ask the Economist, they're a reputable news source!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    All of the news has been suspect since the original “Pravda” was gutted and split up into several different versions, run by Greeks, Jews and who knows who? It used to be, that if you wanted the real unadulterated truth, you knew where to go. But today?

    “The truth shall set you free” 🙂

  182. Off-top (if you can be off-top on an open thread)

    Bay of Pigs in Venezuela: pigs lost again.

    Following multi-million contract (who paid?) between vaudeville “president” of Venezuela Guaido and Silvercorp USA Inc owned by Jordan Goudreau a bunch of mercenaries going in speedboats from Colombia attempted landing in Venezuela. Their fates differed: some were killed, some captured. Two American citizens are among those captured. Maduro openly celebrates victory and demonstrates their US passports.

    While victories have many fathers, pathetic failures tend to be orphans. Both Trump and Colombian government denied their role, or even knowledge, of this failed attempt. Guaido immediately disowned it. However, Goudreau published on the web his contract with Guaido, demonstrating for all who wants to know that Guaido is not just a cowardly nobody, but also a liar. Stay tuned.

    • Replies: @A123
    @AnonFromTN

    Guaido is incompetent and hired a bunch of low grade thugs.

    Only a bizarre Troll poster with an ultra-weak position would try to misrepresent the event as "Bay of Pigs II".

    You really need to stop being a Troll and embrace rationality. You do not have to be pathetic and incoherent. We can help, but you have to want to get better.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  183. @Znzn
    @Dmitry

    White Anglos invented a lot of things in the modern world, like modern trains, machine guns, gatling guns, aircraft, modern ocean liners, telephones, telegraphs, mass produced cars, moderns rockets, jet engines, computers, radars, etc. Also wrote the book on successful relatively non-violent counterinsurgency tactics in the Malayan emergency and their belated victory in the 2nd Boer war.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AnonFromTN

    UK has just edged out Italy and became the second (after the US) country in the number of coronavirus-associated deaths. Truly, the Anglos lead the world. The only problem is, the majority of the world population does not want to move in the direction where Anglos lead. Ungrateful bastards, no doubt.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    The only problem is, the majority of the world population does not want to move in the direction where Anglos lead. Ungrateful bastards, no doubt.
     
    It appears that you're one of the few "grateful bastards" then, eh Mr. Tennessee :-)

    https://i.tyzhden.ua/Content/PhotoAlbum/2014/6_2014/16b.jpg
  184. 5 more medical professionals have been killed with coronavirus in Saint-Petersburg, even though the epidemic is still very small in that city.

    Perhaps this is also normal with flu in May, but if so, then there is surely chronic lack of reporting by the media about the dangers of flu for medical professionals? – as a reader of media for years, we causal people don’t hear reports about flu killing the doctors.

    St. Petersburg authorities reported the death of four other medical personnel who were diagnosed with coronavirus infection. This was reported by the press service of the city administration.

    “A severe coronavirus infection kills the lives of medical workers in St. Petersburg. The doctor of the operative department of the City Ambulance Station, Vladimir Samuilovich Mankovich, died, ”the message says.

    Olga Novikova, a nurse of the traumatology department of the Janelidze Research Institute, also died.

    In addition, the report says about the death of two nurses of the National Medical Research Center for Traumatology and Orthopedics named after Vreden – Julia Yasyulevich and Tatyana Kankia.

    On April 25, the death of Sergei Beloshitsky, an anesthetist-resuscitator of the Elizavetinskoy Hospitals of St. Petersburg, who confirmed the coronavirus, became known.

    https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2020-05-05-four-doctors-with-coronavirus-died-in-st--petersburg.BkEl1MLyq8.html

  185. @AP
    @Dmitry

    In Asia you didn’t mention Korea, which has become comparable to Japan.

    Otherwise you are probably right.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry

    I don’t know personally and haven’t been in Korea – but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that – while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) – the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry

    It makes sense that Japan is more impressive culturally as it has a population about 2.5x that of SK. And that comes with secondary effects, like market size. If you compare films, it seems to me Korean films are often more modest, as their domestic market is smaller and a hit there generally doesn't make much money.

    I watched the movie Train to Busan recently. Of course, it had some flaws - I don't think you can make an entertaining zombie movie without at least five plot holes - but I think it was better than any Western zombie movie that I can remember seeing.

    I've been thinking about the related idea that China has a weak cultural sphere for their size, and I'm not so sure the difference is as dramatic as it seems at first. First off, you can't compare vs. Hollywood in 1939, or ask where their Buster Keaton (Jackie Chan?) or peak Schwarzenegger is, because that's not a fair comparison, if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.

    Next, it should really be split into three groups, rather than China vs. America - 1.) Multicult Hollywood, 2.) non-multicult white films, and finally 3.) North East Asian output - combining Japan, Korea, and China. I don't know how translatable my psychology is on a global level, but I prefer #3, as it is pretty hard to find #2 these days, and I think diversity is like cancer to art. Practically every film with diversity in it has some political message. Even if it is hidden, it is supporting the fiendish process of globalization.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).
     
    North Korea is also quite successful. A stable, secure, Stalinist state that stays this way through two handovers of power and decades after real Communism ended almost everywhere else. It is a perfectly-done realization of a terrible system, so in this case success is bad for the people living there. Comparisons to Africa are absurd. Africans wouldn't build nukes, rockets, hack Sony, maintain a competent state terror apparatus, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    , @Mikhail
    @Dmitry

    Regarding Korea: in the US, ESPN is airing Korean baseball games live and on tape. They play before empty stadiums. If a player suddenly falls ill from Covid-19, that league will shut down for three weeks.

    , @anonymous coward
    @Dmitry


    there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful
     
    Fake news. North Korea has half the population of South Korea, and yet has more newborns. North Korea will literally inherit the earth, and South Korea literally won't.

    This is the only metric of 'success' that matters.

  186. A123 says:
    @AnonFromTN
    Off-top (if you can be off-top on an open thread)

    Bay of Pigs in Venezuela: pigs lost again.

    Following multi-million contract (who paid?) between vaudeville “president” of Venezuela Guaido and Silvercorp USA Inc owned by Jordan Goudreau a bunch of mercenaries going in speedboats from Colombia attempted landing in Venezuela. Their fates differed: some were killed, some captured. Two American citizens are among those captured. Maduro openly celebrates victory and demonstrates their US passports.

    While victories have many fathers, pathetic failures tend to be orphans. Both Trump and Colombian government denied their role, or even knowledge, of this failed attempt. Guaido immediately disowned it. However, Goudreau published on the web his contract with Guaido, demonstrating for all who wants to know that Guaido is not just a cowardly nobody, but also a liar. Stay tuned.

    Replies: @A123

    Guaido is incompetent and hired a bunch of low grade thugs.

    Only a bizarre Troll poster with an ultra-weak position would try to misrepresent the event as “Bay of Pigs II”.

    You really need to stop being a Troll and embrace rationality. You do not have to be pathetic and incoherent. We can help, but you have to want to get better.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @A123


    Guaido is incompetent and hired a bunch of low grade thugs.
     
    Venezuelans know that. That’s why his support in the country is in single digits, despite the fact that many Venezuelans have legitimate beef with Maduro and his government.

    Would you inform of your observation those governments who recognized this incompetent nonentity as president of Venezuela? Including the US government. You can even start with your supervisor.
  187. @AnonFromTN
    @Znzn

    UK has just edged out Italy and became the second (after the US) country in the number of coronavirus-associated deaths. Truly, the Anglos lead the world. The only problem is, the majority of the world population does not want to move in the direction where Anglos lead. Ungrateful bastards, no doubt.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    The only problem is, the majority of the world population does not want to move in the direction where Anglos lead. Ungrateful bastards, no doubt.

    It appears that you’re one of the few “grateful bastards” then, eh Mr. Tennessee 🙂

  188. @A123
    @AnonFromTN

    Guaido is incompetent and hired a bunch of low grade thugs.

    Only a bizarre Troll poster with an ultra-weak position would try to misrepresent the event as "Bay of Pigs II".

    You really need to stop being a Troll and embrace rationality. You do not have to be pathetic and incoherent. We can help, but you have to want to get better.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Guaido is incompetent and hired a bunch of low grade thugs.

    Venezuelans know that. That’s why his support in the country is in single digits, despite the fact that many Venezuelans have legitimate beef with Maduro and his government.

    Would you inform of your observation those governments who recognized this incompetent nonentity as president of Venezuela? Including the US government. You can even start with your supervisor.

    • LOL: A123
  189. @Dmitry
    @Znzn


    White Anglos are just too lazy, decadent,

     

    According to what standard? Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries.

    And outside Europe and colonial projects of the English world (Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand), there is really only Japan which is less lazy, decadent, etc.


    nowadays compared to East Asians,... East Asians caught on

     

    I would not exaggerate too much about a "disciplined capability" of East Asians, from focusing only on the one Asian nationality which has shown a North Western European style of capacity (Japan).

    Similarly, in Europe, you wouldn't generalize very well, from choosing the few most successful nationalities like Germans, English or Swedish. E.g. German worker excellence, does not generalize so accurately to e.g. modern Romania, or modern Greece, even though distance is only a few hundred kilometres.

    If you thought of Europeans as synonymous with Germany, you would assume we are a naturally conscientious, lawful race - and you are going to be very confused by life in Italy, let alone Ukraine.


    Toyota vs the Big Three,

     

    In recent history, it was only Germany/Japan which had a reputation for mass making consistently good quality consumer products, and they have both this greatly undermined in recent years by offshoring much of their production to countries with less conscientious standards.

    In Asia, Japanese brands seem to have mostly undermined all reputation for their quality in recent decades, by offshoring production to China.

    In Europe, much of German brands are offshoring production to countries like Romania, Hungary. People now especially try to get from brands like Miele, because it's one of the few where you can still buy made by German workers (or Turkish gastarbaiters in Germany), rather than nationalities like Poles and Romanians.

    -

    China is interesting, because in recent years there started to emerge these hipster companies which make "high end" products (like HiFiMan), with low quality control, but the most innovative exciting designs. Everything about them - (including packaging) reminds you already more of Italy, than of Japan.

    Who can predict if Chinese production will go the way of Italy, instead of Japan? Perhaps Chinese brands start making the world's fastest supercars, but that their mass market cars will develop more like Fiat, than Toyota.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @AP, @Dacian Julien Soros

    “Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries”

    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified “healthcare workers” (read, old peoples’ ass wipers). Austrians had to convince the Hungarian Orban (not to be confused with the Romanian one) to allow passage for their trains.

    Those Austrian Zoom meetings must be never ending, longer than Weihan’s study hours. And who is in the mood to see their own grandparents, after a hard day’s work on Slack?

    Just how old must one’s grandma be when one sends her to Recycle Bin, in order to qualify to the “hard working” description?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dacian Julien Soros


    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified “healthcare workers”
     
    This is about the price of labor. It has nothing to do with natives refusing to do the work. It is hardly surprising that natives don't want to live in dorms paying rent to their employers, and working for slave wages. The companies know this, and when natives apply they hire Romanians instead.

    Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros

  190. @Dmitry
    @AP

    I don't know personally and haven't been in Korea - but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that - while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) - the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country's success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Mikhail, @anonymous coward

    It makes sense that Japan is more impressive culturally as it has a population about 2.5x that of SK. And that comes with secondary effects, like market size. If you compare films, it seems to me Korean films are often more modest, as their domestic market is smaller and a hit there generally doesn’t make much money.

    I watched the movie Train to Busan recently. Of course, it had some flaws – I don’t think you can make an entertaining zombie movie without at least five plot holes – but I think it was better than any Western zombie movie that I can remember seeing.

    I’ve been thinking about the related idea that China has a weak cultural sphere for their size, and I’m not so sure the difference is as dramatic as it seems at first. First off, you can’t compare vs. Hollywood in 1939, or ask where their Buster Keaton (Jackie Chan?) or peak Schwarzenegger is, because that’s not a fair comparison, if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.

    Next, it should really be split into three groups, rather than China vs. America – 1.) Multicult Hollywood, 2.) non-multicult white films, and finally 3.) North East Asian output – combining Japan, Korea, and China. I don’t know how translatable my psychology is on a global level, but I prefer #3, as it is pretty hard to find #2 these days, and I think diversity is like cancer to art. Practically every film with diversity in it has some political message. Even if it is hidden, it is supporting the fiendish process of globalization.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think it's a question of quantity. Japan has usually some kind of strange, original or aristocratic interpretation on most of everything for at least a century.

    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America. There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking "Buddhist" insight), in the popular culture's obsession with pretty aesthetics.

    Although there are new popular cultural trends from Korea like Mukbang, which is similar to some of the weirder ideas from Japan.

    The less original culture, might be a result of historical misfortune, of suffering decades of foreign occupation by Japan - in addition, a large part of the population had sadly lost their native ancestral roots in 20th century conversion to Christianity by American missionaries, which might add an additional historical discontinuity. (While of course Japan has always been very careful about missionaries).

    But the answers here will be in history books, rather than my amateur speculations.


    if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.
     
    In terms of "artistic quality", Hollywood improved in the last couple years. For example, the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.

    ^ These are 6/10 or perhaps even 7/10 films. They’re not great films at all, they are not great art. But they are also not very bad, unentertaining, unwatching, etc.

    Cultural influence and originality is not necessarily about quality though. Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.

    Replies: @songbird, @AaronB

  191. @Dacian Julien Soros
    @Dmitry

    "Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries"

    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified "healthcare workers" (read, old peoples' ass wipers). Austrians had to convince the Hungarian Orban (not to be confused with the Romanian one) to allow passage for their trains.

    Those Austrian Zoom meetings must be never ending, longer than Weihan's study hours. And who is in the mood to see their own grandparents, after a hard day's work on Slack?

    Just how old must one's grandma be when one sends her to Recycle Bin, in order to qualify to the "hard working" description?

    Replies: @songbird

    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified “healthcare workers”

    This is about the price of labor. It has nothing to do with natives refusing to do the work. It is hardly surprising that natives don’t want to live in dorms paying rent to their employers, and working for slave wages. The companies know this, and when natives apply they hire Romanians instead.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
    @songbird

    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it? (FYI, Romanian farm workers live in crowded conditions simply because they don't make the money to live at The Ritz. Most of them would stay at The Ritz, like any consoomer, given the chance.)

    How is that "hard working"? How can "hard work" depend on the pay rate? Italians and Spaniards would wank abut on Zoom and Slack for 30 an hour, just like Anglos and Germos, given the chance. You can't call them lazy simply because their economy is not based on wanking on Zoom.

    Also, sending your grandma, like the Austrians do, to an old people's house, to be washed by a spic, is beyond hard working / lack thereof. You should be able to care for your family even if you are not paid, and even if your living conditions get a bit worse. Most of these 80-year old disabled Austrians have 60-year old children, who are retired as well. Their failure to care for their parents is more than laziness. It is not "refuse to work", it is not "poor housing". Your parents f**ng hosted you for almost 20 years, fed you and washed you. Austrians are unChristian satans.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird, @EldnahYm

  192. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP

    I don't know personally and haven't been in Korea - but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that - while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) - the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country's success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Mikhail, @anonymous coward

    (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    North Korea is also quite successful. A stable, secure, Stalinist state that stays this way through two handovers of power and decades after real Communism ended almost everywhere else. It is a perfectly-done realization of a terrible system, so in this case success is bad for the people living there. Comparisons to Africa are absurd. Africans wouldn’t build nukes, rockets, hack Sony, maintain a competent state terror apparatus, etc.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    An interesting reply.

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    "hack Sony" - This is unlikely to be a difficult achievement - these companies often almost without any security, and such hacks are usually from phishing emails.

    "build nukes" - North Korea have the world's most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.

    "perfectly-done realization of a terrible system" - Not really, that kind of tribal family dictatorship which is in North Korea, just requires violence. They don't need complex political technology. You kill the people who disagree with you and ban the things you don't like.

    "maintain a competent state terror apparatus" - The majority of dictatorships in the present and past have a far more competent state apparatus. North Korea survives on foreign food aid and the population is starving.

    "North Korea is also quite successful." - It's one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir's Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.


    how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans,
     
    My comment is a bit unclearly written. I'm not saying Koreans will have shown high "racial potential", comparable to white races. But the fact there can be the world's least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars - from the same race, shows what a total joke "a racial determinism model of development" would be, as all historians have written for centuries (blood is only one of the many other ingredients in the recipe, as historians usually explained for centuries).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AP

  193. @AP
    @Dmitry


    (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).
     
    North Korea is also quite successful. A stable, secure, Stalinist state that stays this way through two handovers of power and decades after real Communism ended almost everywhere else. It is a perfectly-done realization of a terrible system, so in this case success is bad for the people living there. Comparisons to Africa are absurd. Africans wouldn't build nukes, rockets, hack Sony, maintain a competent state terror apparatus, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    An interesting reply.

    • Thanks: AP
  194. @Dmitry
    @AP

    I don't know personally and haven't been in Korea - but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that - while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) - the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country's success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Mikhail, @anonymous coward

    Regarding Korea: in the US, ESPN is airing Korean baseball games live and on tape. They play before empty stadiums. If a player suddenly falls ill from Covid-19, that league will shut down for three weeks.

  195. @AP
    @Dmitry


    (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).
     
    North Korea is also quite successful. A stable, secure, Stalinist state that stays this way through two handovers of power and decades after real Communism ended almost everywhere else. It is a perfectly-done realization of a terrible system, so in this case success is bad for the people living there. Comparisons to Africa are absurd. Africans wouldn't build nukes, rockets, hack Sony, maintain a competent state terror apparatus, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    “hack Sony” – This is unlikely to be a difficult achievement – these companies often almost without any security, and such hacks are usually from phishing emails.

    “build nukes” – North Korea have the world’s most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.

    “perfectly-done realization of a terrible system” – Not really, that kind of tribal family dictatorship which is in North Korea, just requires violence. They don’t need complex political technology. You kill the people who disagree with you and ban the things you don’t like.

    “maintain a competent state terror apparatus” – The majority of dictatorships in the present and past have a far more competent state apparatus. North Korea survives on foreign food aid and the population is starving.

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir’s Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.

    how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans,

    My comment is a bit unclearly written. I’m not saying Koreans will have shown high “racial potential”, comparable to white races. But the fact there can be the world’s least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars – from the same race, shows what a total joke “a racial determinism model of development” would be, as all historians have written for centuries (blood is only one of the many other ingredients in the recipe, as historians usually explained for centuries).

    • Agree: Ms Karlin-Gerard
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir’s Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.
     
    In terms of socio-economics, up until 1970, maybe mid-1960s, North Korea (if I'm not offhand mistaken) didn't compare so unfavorably to South Korea.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    “build nukes” – North Korea have the world’s most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.
     
    Still, North Korea, rather isolated, heavily sanctioned and with only 26 million people managed to build its own nukes and to build medium range missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers. Hundreds of millions of Arabs haven’t been able to do this, and you compare North Korea to Africa.

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany.
     
    Mass starvation is a feature of Stalinist systems. USSR under Stalin, Mao’s China, Ethiopia under the Derg all had mass starvation.

    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their own people. Whom would you rather be in 1933 - a Berliner or Bavarian, or a Muscovite or Ukrainian? Nazis didn’t starve Germans to death. Soviets starved Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs to death, Mao starved Chinese, etc.

    But the fact there can be the world’s least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars – from the same race, shows what a total joke “a racial determinism model of development” would be
     
    1. This is just a damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union, which was a much less extreme form. There is an old expression - “socialism makes smart people poor, oil makes dumb people rich.” I suppose that Venezuela proves that the effects of socialism outweigh those of oil.

    2. Again, the system in North Korea is successful by its own standards. It is much more successful than any other Stalinist system has been. The others all disappeared, this one is still going strong.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @NazBolFren, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

  196. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    It makes sense that Japan is more impressive culturally as it has a population about 2.5x that of SK. And that comes with secondary effects, like market size. If you compare films, it seems to me Korean films are often more modest, as their domestic market is smaller and a hit there generally doesn't make much money.

    I watched the movie Train to Busan recently. Of course, it had some flaws - I don't think you can make an entertaining zombie movie without at least five plot holes - but I think it was better than any Western zombie movie that I can remember seeing.

    I've been thinking about the related idea that China has a weak cultural sphere for their size, and I'm not so sure the difference is as dramatic as it seems at first. First off, you can't compare vs. Hollywood in 1939, or ask where their Buster Keaton (Jackie Chan?) or peak Schwarzenegger is, because that's not a fair comparison, if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.

    Next, it should really be split into three groups, rather than China vs. America - 1.) Multicult Hollywood, 2.) non-multicult white films, and finally 3.) North East Asian output - combining Japan, Korea, and China. I don't know how translatable my psychology is on a global level, but I prefer #3, as it is pretty hard to find #2 these days, and I think diversity is like cancer to art. Practically every film with diversity in it has some political message. Even if it is hidden, it is supporting the fiendish process of globalization.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t think it’s a question of quantity. Japan has usually some kind of strange, original or aristocratic interpretation on most of everything for at least a century.

    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America. There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking “Buddhist” insight), in the popular culture’s obsession with pretty aesthetics.

    Although there are new popular cultural trends from Korea like Mukbang, which is similar to some of the weirder ideas from Japan.

    The less original culture, might be a result of historical misfortune, of suffering decades of foreign occupation by Japan – in addition, a large part of the population had sadly lost their native ancestral roots in 20th century conversion to Christianity by American missionaries, which might add an additional historical discontinuity. (While of course Japan has always been very careful about missionaries).

    But the answers here will be in history books, rather than my amateur speculations.

    if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.

    In terms of “artistic quality”, Hollywood improved in the last couple years. For example, the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.

    ^ These are 6/10 or perhaps even 7/10 films. They’re not great films at all, they are not great art. But they are also not very bad, unentertaining, unwatching, etc.

    Cultural influence and originality is not necessarily about quality though. Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry


    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America.
     
    My theory is that this has something to do with economics. Japan was already filling a lot of cultural niches with its produce that had an advantage of a larger domestic market. What seemed to be left open for Korea was heavily manufactured music, and Korea actually had an advantage here because the process of grooming these young music stars is actually pretty brutal, and the relative poverty of Korea at that time made it seem more attractive. And there was a carryover effect, even as standard of living rose.

    the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.
     
    I haven't seen any of them, so I can only comment superficially.


    Joker I understand has some sort of implied miscegenation with a single black mother or something.

    I refuse to watch anything Tarantino does - I was never a great fan of him, ever since I saw Pulp Fiction , which depicts violent sodomy. Inglourious Basterds and especially Django Unchained, seem like revenge fantasies of Jews and blacks respectively. Django had a really abominable scene against a white woman. After seeing it, I decided to call it quits on him permanently. Some have called Once Upon a Timea white-friendly film, but that still doesn't matter to me. Anyway, I have heard he is deconstructionist to Bruce Lee in the movie.

    1917 I understand has a stereotypical German villain scene. I realize film is often like that. You need villains, at least to a certain extent, and I don't want to appear like the Indians who have a problem with Last of the Mohicans because it depicts noble Indians vs. savage Indians, but with Germans, there are added layers of complexity, on a historical and cultural level. I abhor seeing what this cultural vilification of Germans has done to Germans. If we were living in the 1980s, I'd be okay with it, but in 2020, after seeing the process of the past few years, and following German politics at least on a shallow level, I'm deeply disturbed by it.

    Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.
     
    I recently watched the Russian movie Zashchitniki (2017). Bad movie and very derivative, but it got me wondering what might have happened, if the USSR had tried to create popular movies with a team of heroes from different parts of the Union. Though, personally, I feel worn out, when it comes to seeing superhero movies - the fantasy elements seem a sign of civilizational decay. And they are very multicult and feminist.
    , @AaronB
    @Dmitry


    There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking “Buddhist” insight), in the popular culture’s obsession with pretty aesthetics.
     
    Great point.

    Although they also enjoy "polish", the Japanese actually look for and prefer imperfections in physical beauty (both people and things).

    There is something superficial and shallow in Korean standards of beauty. It lacks depth and character, no eccentricity or quirks.
  197. Come on Twinkie, hit us up ! You know you want to.

  198. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry
    @AP

    "hack Sony" - This is unlikely to be a difficult achievement - these companies often almost without any security, and such hacks are usually from phishing emails.

    "build nukes" - North Korea have the world's most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.

    "perfectly-done realization of a terrible system" - Not really, that kind of tribal family dictatorship which is in North Korea, just requires violence. They don't need complex political technology. You kill the people who disagree with you and ban the things you don't like.

    "maintain a competent state terror apparatus" - The majority of dictatorships in the present and past have a far more competent state apparatus. North Korea survives on foreign food aid and the population is starving.

    "North Korea is also quite successful." - It's one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir's Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.


    how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans,
     
    My comment is a bit unclearly written. I'm not saying Koreans will have shown high "racial potential", comparable to white races. But the fact there can be the world's least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars - from the same race, shows what a total joke "a racial determinism model of development" would be, as all historians have written for centuries (blood is only one of the many other ingredients in the recipe, as historians usually explained for centuries).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AP

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir’s Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.

    In terms of socio-economics, up until 1970, maybe mid-1960s, North Korea (if I’m not offhand mistaken) didn’t compare so unfavorably to South Korea.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    South Korea was one of the world's poorest countries at that time, and already now it has developed to Western European level. On the other hand, North Korea still cannot industrialize agriculture to early 20th century methods.

    The divergence is wildly extreme, and surely far more than anyone would have predicted 60 years ago.

    It's almost like a laboratory, political experiment - as the division was an arbitrary foreign imposed one, and does not correspond to any "natural" division (that is in countries like Italy).

    -


    This "documentary" is more like Korean government propaganda. However, part of the message is that they really understand and adapt both Western and Eastern markets - it's one of benefits of being a victim of colonialism from both sides.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dGYVKt1zw4

  199. @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir’s Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.
     
    In terms of socio-economics, up until 1970, maybe mid-1960s, North Korea (if I'm not offhand mistaken) didn't compare so unfavorably to South Korea.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    South Korea was one of the world’s poorest countries at that time, and already now it has developed to Western European level. On the other hand, North Korea still cannot industrialize agriculture to early 20th century methods.

    The divergence is wildly extreme, and surely far more than anyone would have predicted 60 years ago.

    It’s almost like a laboratory, political experiment – as the division was an arbitrary foreign imposed one, and does not correspond to any “natural” division (that is in countries like Italy).

    This “documentary” is more like Korean government propaganda. However, part of the message is that they really understand and adapt both Western and Eastern markets – it’s one of benefits of being a victim of colonialism from both sides.

  200. Does anyone else simply not care about Corona anymore?

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @128
    @Thorfinnsson

    Trump already declared victory, so we just have to take his word for it?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  201. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP

    "hack Sony" - This is unlikely to be a difficult achievement - these companies often almost without any security, and such hacks are usually from phishing emails.

    "build nukes" - North Korea have the world's most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.

    "perfectly-done realization of a terrible system" - Not really, that kind of tribal family dictatorship which is in North Korea, just requires violence. They don't need complex political technology. You kill the people who disagree with you and ban the things you don't like.

    "maintain a competent state terror apparatus" - The majority of dictatorships in the present and past have a far more competent state apparatus. North Korea survives on foreign food aid and the population is starving.

    "North Korea is also quite successful." - It's one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany. It is more like al-Bashir's Sudan, or similar family dictatorships across Africa.


    how false the theory is that race can determines a country’s success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans,
     
    My comment is a bit unclearly written. I'm not saying Koreans will have shown high "racial potential", comparable to white races. But the fact there can be the world's least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars - from the same race, shows what a total joke "a racial determinism model of development" would be, as all historians have written for centuries (blood is only one of the many other ingredients in the recipe, as historians usually explained for centuries).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AP

    “build nukes” – North Korea have the world’s most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.

    Still, North Korea, rather isolated, heavily sanctioned and with only 26 million people managed to build its own nukes and to build medium range missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers. Hundreds of millions of Arabs haven’t been able to do this, and you compare North Korea to Africa.

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany.

    Mass starvation is a feature of Stalinist systems. USSR under Stalin, Mao’s China, Ethiopia under the Derg all had mass starvation.

    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their own people. Whom would you rather be in 1933 – a Berliner or Bavarian, or a Muscovite or Ukrainian? Nazis didn’t starve Germans to death. Soviets starved Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs to death, Mao starved Chinese, etc.

    But the fact there can be the world’s least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars – from the same race, shows what a total joke “a racial determinism model of development” would be

    1. This is just a damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union, which was a much less extreme form. There is an old expression – “socialism makes smart people poor, oil makes dumb people rich.” I suppose that Venezuela proves that the effects of socialism outweigh those of oil.

    2. Again, the system in North Korea is successful by its own standards. It is much more successful than any other Stalinist system has been. The others all disappeared, this one is still going strong.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this
     
    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).

    managed to build its own nukes
     
    They didn't build their own - they were from Pakistani blueprints.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.
     
    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point.

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).


    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their

     

    Nazi Germany was the most powerful country in Europe and still a culturally dominating power (even as the terrible government resulted in loss of large proportion of their scientists, writers, musicians, even to the USSR e.g. Kurt Sanderling). The point is that North Korea is not a normal European style of dictatorship. It's not even a South American "Banana Republic" - which exports useful products like bananas.

    It is an African level of family dictatorship (where the leader has a harem, etc), that cannot industrialize to third world levels, and only has the benefit of some industrialized looking Potemkin villages - so naive observers will think that they are industrialized.

    North Korea is actually a mainly subsistence economy.


    damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union
     
    It shows that the political layer (rather than factors like race, or even culture), can be completely determining success or failure of the country.

    In North Korea, this political layer is a African style of family dictatorship.

    It is not "damnation of communism", as we know what life in communism can be like with more adequate leaders. USSR has been the world's only superpower (apart from the USA) in the last century, and people lived very well by later stages. But this is similar across Europe: life was not so terrible in countries like Yugoslavia, German Democratic Republic, either.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

    , @NazBolFren
    @AP

    Are you cereal?

    Soviet Union may have had squalor until after WW2 as it was still a very much developing country. Then after the war it rapidly obtained first world standards ofl iving and surpassed Europe.

    Finally, to answer some of your other questions regarding the USSR (which you seem to be poorly educated in given your traitorus Ukranian (i mean polish) roots:

    1. Passports where not given to Kolhoz workers because they were not needed, and yet somehow there was a transfer of population from rural to urban areas. How did they do it if there were no passports? Easy. Passports could easily be acquired at the local militsia station.

    2. regarding "starvation" caused by stalinist regiemes. Sure they did happen, just like they happened in many places at that time outside USSR/communist countries. Furthermore, you seem to have a hard-on for the Tsar, but totally ignore how much Tsardom was hated by its own people - as evident from the writings of the contemporaries of the time - this accounts for constant peasant revolts and the development of a strong state security appartus by the Okhranka which later became the bases for the CheKa and NKVD. This is easily seen by how the Decembrists were treated.

    3. Under Kolkhoz, workers would work 100 days a year (after it was established) and still have a great deal of money they saved - evidenced by how farmers financed tanks and planes for the RKKA during WW2.

    4. From 1947 to 1953 (year of stalin's death), every march 1st (I may be wrong, it might be may) the prices for essential food items decreased by about 1.5-2x.

    5. Despite much loss and destruction, under stalin's rule the USSR increased industrial output 20x compared to other countries in europe that increased no more than 2x in the same period.

    6. During WW2 the USSR lost >20 million people, 1710 cities, 70k villages, 32k industries, 65k km of railroads, etc which was all rebuilt rapidly after the war WITHOUT outside help.

    7. Soviet production under Stalin exceeded the expected results for the 4th five year plan:
    -industrial capacity was increased 48%
    -rebuild and build 5900 factories, 85 million sq m of housing in cities, 3.6 million sq m in villages
    -surpass before war levels of industrial output and integration with the newest agricultural technologies of that time
    -rapid increases in QoL for the population

    8. Regarding things like Operation Bagration or the losses that the USSR suffered during WW2. After the winter of 1941 the USSR was always in a counteroffensive - and generally in offensives well defended positions are attacked which naturally leads to greater losses. There is little evidence that Zhukov or that WW2 Soviet commanders (past 1941) where useless. To say otherwise is being a wehraboo.

    It was not until Khruschev's "reforms" and shitting on Stalin that the first deficits started appearing. Furthermore, had OGAS been implemented the USSR would have been 10 years ahead of the USA in internet exploitation.

    We know why Karlin hates the USSR:
    -Because his ancestors where traitorous white officers and naturally he hates that their land was lost and other priveleges.
    -He was raised to hate it and thus seeks to confirm his view in a confirmation bias.
    -What we saw in the USSR was the best educational system in the World - far superior to what was present in Tsarist Russia (this is why only 15% of the population was literate) and what is present now.

    It's also obvious why you hate the USSR
    -You are a svidomiy ukranian (or should I say pole - because western ukranians aren't actually ukranians but poles).
    -Poles have historical beef with Russia (since they got defeated in the 1600's and the PIC was broken apart)

    Replies: @another anon, @Dmitry

    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @AP


    Hundreds of millions of Arabs
     
    ..... were prevented from developing even the relatively primative standard nuclear weapons of North Korea upto 1989 due to their patronage from either the US or USSR deliberately preventing them you dummy.

    Taking your nonsense to include all middle east /north africa then you have many with the patronage issue, many insecure leaderships watching their backs all the time for people loyal to the previous leader they overthrew - thus making the secrecy required to develop nuclear weapons impossible without 20 years of rule and purges. Throw in Israel, Arab spring, Gulf war, 9/11 and the west/Israel, making positive business/trade moves at various times then you have a much different situation to North Korea--a highly militarised state that hasn't fought any war in decades, ruled continuously by the same dynasty, strong intelligence apparatus and neighbour China and Russia.


    I suppose that Venezuela proves
     
    LOL did I read that comedy right? The fantasist who "defends" failed state Banderastan criticises a state that is significantly wealthier per person, better run (relative only to Banderastan) and isn't a prostitute of the Americans!! Seriously dumb tactics. At least if you had kept to North Korea......

    Mass starvation is a feature of Stalinist systems, be it the USSR, Mao's China or the Derg in Ethiopia
     
    LOL.... it was a feature of failed blackhole reject areas like Galicia, that experienced severe famine and disinterest under Austrian rule.
    I must say its news to me that the British Empire was "Stalinist" for the mass famine in Ireland (proportionately much worse than the USSR) . LOL. Or in India. Hopeless Poland was disproportionately affected by famine for centuries (when Russia didn't rule these inadequate clowns), Ireland again,France,Italy and even Spain have suffered many many famines in the last 400 years, so has Russia - the only thing linking them all being that industrialisation stopped them from occurring afterwards you dummy.
    Seeing as mass famine affected many anti-communist regimes in Africa and Asia, seeing as Ethiopia has had frequent and worse famines than what occurred under the Derg...... how dumb, sad and disingenuous do you have to be to have made the inept argument you just made?

    Germans didn't starve Nazis to death
     
    Germany has to have been one of the least famine affected lands in the last millennium you absurd cretin. It is an idiotic comparison..... Hitler made his purges immediate,and viscous straight into his rule. Stalin started his long after a time span in which Hitler had ruled, initiated and lost the war and killed himself. Nazi Germany had no terrible civil war either in the interwar period.

    Throwing his men away to fight for Italy's struggles in North Africa, fighting wars against multiple great powers on two fronts losing millions, frequently going against his generals advice is not "looking after you own people".


    Stalinist
     
    It's obvious that you have no idea what the term "Stalinist" even means ( creator of ukropia the best fit? )
    Anyway you are not in any position to comment on the great USSR and his many achievements.... certainly not from the perspective of the rotting in hell, evil loser, sadist eye-gouging "humans" that you fantasise as your relatives escaping via the CIA to some sick, closed community in North America

    Replies: @AP

  202. @Thorfinnsson
    Does anyone else simply not care about Corona anymore?

    Replies: @128

    Trump already declared victory, so we just have to take his word for it?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @128

    No, that's not what I mean.

    I just find the whole thing boring and fatiguing now. It's the only thing people talk about anymore, and that has been the case for almost two months now.

    I should note that I live somewhere with zero cases, which probably contributes to my view.

    Replies: @songbird, @RadicalCenter

  203. @128
    @Thorfinnsson

    Trump already declared victory, so we just have to take his word for it?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    No, that’s not what I mean.

    I just find the whole thing boring and fatiguing now. It’s the only thing people talk about anymore, and that has been the case for almost two months now.

    I should note that I live somewhere with zero cases, which probably contributes to my view.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    One of the most interesting aspects of Corona-chan is how it has interrupted the standard newsmedia cycle, helping to reveal how dumb, derivative, and superficial it is.

    Replies: @Znzn

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Thorfinnsson

    I share your sentiment, Thorfinnson. But I’d note that your area, like mine, very likely has many thousands of people who already caught this virus and recovered without ever being tested, let alone being hospitalized.

  204. @AP
    @Dmitry


    “build nukes” – North Korea have the world’s most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.
     
    Still, North Korea, rather isolated, heavily sanctioned and with only 26 million people managed to build its own nukes and to build medium range missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers. Hundreds of millions of Arabs haven’t been able to do this, and you compare North Korea to Africa.

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany.
     
    Mass starvation is a feature of Stalinist systems. USSR under Stalin, Mao’s China, Ethiopia under the Derg all had mass starvation.

    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their own people. Whom would you rather be in 1933 - a Berliner or Bavarian, or a Muscovite or Ukrainian? Nazis didn’t starve Germans to death. Soviets starved Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs to death, Mao starved Chinese, etc.

    But the fact there can be the world’s least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars – from the same race, shows what a total joke “a racial determinism model of development” would be
     
    1. This is just a damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union, which was a much less extreme form. There is an old expression - “socialism makes smart people poor, oil makes dumb people rich.” I suppose that Venezuela proves that the effects of socialism outweigh those of oil.

    2. Again, the system in North Korea is successful by its own standards. It is much more successful than any other Stalinist system has been. The others all disappeared, this one is still going strong.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @NazBolFren, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Arabs haven’t been able to do this

    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).

    managed to build its own nukes

    They didn’t build their own – they were from Pakistani blueprints.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.

    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point.

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).

    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their

    Nazi Germany was the most powerful country in Europe and still a culturally dominating power (even as the terrible government resulted in loss of large proportion of their scientists, writers, musicians, even to the USSR e.g. Kurt Sanderling). The point is that North Korea is not a normal European style of dictatorship. It’s not even a South American “Banana Republic” – which exports useful products like bananas.

    It is an African level of family dictatorship (where the leader has a harem, etc), that cannot industrialize to third world levels, and only has the benefit of some industrialized looking Potemkin villages – so naive observers will think that they are industrialized.

    North Korea is actually a mainly subsistence economy.

    damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union

    It shows that the political layer (rather than factors like race, or even culture), can be completely determining success or failure of the country.

    In North Korea, this political layer is a African style of family dictatorship.

    It is not “damnation of communism”, as we know what life in communism can be like with more adequate leaders. USSR has been the world’s only superpower (apart from the USA) in the last century, and people lived very well by later stages. But this is similar across Europe: life was not so terrible in countries like Yugoslavia, German Democratic Republic, either.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, North Korea did very well while it was propped up by Soviet money and resources. At that time, North Korea was also able to trade with China/USSR and was able to obtain resources that are not present on the rocky Korean peninsula.

    I have heard accounts that South Korea would not be doing too well either, if not for American money propping up its economy - as outside 4 main companies (Samsung, LG, Hyundai, SK holdings) the south korean economy is not productive. It also doesn't need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.

    It would be interesting to see how well South Korea does if America entirely withdrew.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this

    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).
     
    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

    managed to build its own nukes

    They didn’t build their own – they were from Pakistani blueprints.
     
    And Soviets stole their plans also.

    North Korea has made nukes and has missiles with 13,000 km range. A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.

    [USSR] and people lived very well by later stages.
     
    I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible. The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than "middle class" Soviets, materially.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.

    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point
     
    There was also mass starvation after World War II.

    USSR was importing massive quantities of grain, it couldn't feed itself:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/1982-03-01/soviet-agricultures-dependence-west

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).
     
    USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA. Its military could keep up (barely) but its standard of living fell behind that of Greece or Portugal.

    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess with. North Korea, like the USSR, might not be able to feed itself consistently, but it supports a military of 1.2 million. If such a country had the population of the USA, it would be a military of 15 million people. If Russia, it would be a 7 million man military.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Dmitry

  205. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think it's a question of quantity. Japan has usually some kind of strange, original or aristocratic interpretation on most of everything for at least a century.

    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America. There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking "Buddhist" insight), in the popular culture's obsession with pretty aesthetics.

    Although there are new popular cultural trends from Korea like Mukbang, which is similar to some of the weirder ideas from Japan.

    The less original culture, might be a result of historical misfortune, of suffering decades of foreign occupation by Japan - in addition, a large part of the population had sadly lost their native ancestral roots in 20th century conversion to Christianity by American missionaries, which might add an additional historical discontinuity. (While of course Japan has always been very careful about missionaries).

    But the answers here will be in history books, rather than my amateur speculations.


    if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.
     
    In terms of "artistic quality", Hollywood improved in the last couple years. For example, the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.

    ^ These are 6/10 or perhaps even 7/10 films. They’re not great films at all, they are not great art. But they are also not very bad, unentertaining, unwatching, etc.

    Cultural influence and originality is not necessarily about quality though. Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.

    Replies: @songbird, @AaronB

    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America.

    My theory is that this has something to do with economics. Japan was already filling a lot of cultural niches with its produce that had an advantage of a larger domestic market. What seemed to be left open for Korea was heavily manufactured music, and Korea actually had an advantage here because the process of grooming these young music stars is actually pretty brutal, and the relative poverty of Korea at that time made it seem more attractive. And there was a carryover effect, even as standard of living rose.

    the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.

    I haven’t seen any of them, so I can only comment superficially.

    [MORE]

    Joker I understand has some sort of implied miscegenation with a single black mother or something.

    I refuse to watch anything Tarantino does – I was never a great fan of him, ever since I saw Pulp Fiction , which depicts violent sodomy. Inglourious Basterds and especially Django Unchained, seem like revenge fantasies of Jews and blacks respectively. Django had a really abominable scene against a white woman. After seeing it, I decided to call it quits on him permanently. Some have called Once Upon a Timea white-friendly film, but that still doesn’t matter to me. Anyway, I have heard he is deconstructionist to Bruce Lee in the movie.

    1917 I understand has a stereotypical German villain scene. I realize film is often like that. You need villains, at least to a certain extent, and I don’t want to appear like the Indians who have a problem with Last of the Mohicans because it depicts noble Indians vs. savage Indians, but with Germans, there are added layers of complexity, on a historical and cultural level. I abhor seeing what this cultural vilification of Germans has done to Germans. If we were living in the 1980s, I’d be okay with it, but in 2020, after seeing the process of the past few years, and following German politics at least on a shallow level, I’m deeply disturbed by it.

    Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.

    I recently watched the Russian movie Zashchitniki (2017). Bad movie and very derivative, but it got me wondering what might have happened, if the USSR had tried to create popular movies with a team of heroes from different parts of the Union. Though, personally, I feel worn out, when it comes to seeing superhero movies – the fantasy elements seem a sign of civilizational decay. And they are very multicult and feminist.

  206. @Thorfinnsson
    @128

    No, that's not what I mean.

    I just find the whole thing boring and fatiguing now. It's the only thing people talk about anymore, and that has been the case for almost two months now.

    I should note that I live somewhere with zero cases, which probably contributes to my view.

    Replies: @songbird, @RadicalCenter

    One of the most interesting aspects of Corona-chan is how it has interrupted the standard newsmedia cycle, helping to reveal how dumb, derivative, and superficial it is.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @songbird

    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?

    Replies: @songbird, @A123

  207. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think it's a question of quantity. Japan has usually some kind of strange, original or aristocratic interpretation on most of everything for at least a century.

    South Korea culture seems to be mainly importing Japanese and Western ideas, and sometimes creating a new re-popularization of old fashions e.g. synchronized boy/girl bands of the 1990s America. There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking "Buddhist" insight), in the popular culture's obsession with pretty aesthetics.

    Although there are new popular cultural trends from Korea like Mukbang, which is similar to some of the weirder ideas from Japan.

    The less original culture, might be a result of historical misfortune, of suffering decades of foreign occupation by Japan - in addition, a large part of the population had sadly lost their native ancestral roots in 20th century conversion to Christianity by American missionaries, which might add an additional historical discontinuity. (While of course Japan has always been very careful about missionaries).

    But the answers here will be in history books, rather than my amateur speculations.


    if you are looking to evaluate the present. You need to compare maybe the last ten years, up to 2020, and I have trouble thinking of any good Hollywood films from that time.
     
    In terms of "artistic quality", Hollywood improved in the last couple years. For example, the most Hollywood famous films of this/last year: Joker, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ford against Ferrari, 1917, etc.

    ^ These are 6/10 or perhaps even 7/10 films. They’re not great films at all, they are not great art. But they are also not very bad, unentertaining, unwatching, etc.

    Cultural influence and originality is not necessarily about quality though. Things like Marvel films are wildly popular and successful cultural export of the last decade.

    Replies: @songbird, @AaronB

    There also seems something more American (perhaps lacking “Buddhist” insight), in the popular culture’s obsession with pretty aesthetics.

    Great point.

    Although they also enjoy “polish”, the Japanese actually look for and prefer imperfections in physical beauty (both people and things).

    There is something superficial and shallow in Korean standards of beauty. It lacks depth and character, no eccentricity or quirks.

  208. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Patriotism is not the simplest concept to define, but when I see the look of this soon to be opened Cathedral of the Armed Forces in Moscow region, then I know that the sensation of national pride felt by any normal Russian because of the cathedral is infinitely larger than anyone from any other country, be it a nothing, fake state or a proper one as Germany, Italy, US, UK etcetera, can feel in their own country. I can't believe how right they have got it.

    An incredibly stunning building, mixing old and modern styles (normally I would be the biggest snob on modern interpretations on classically based buildings...... but this cathedral is simply perfect)

    It is perfect in showcasing the greatness of Russian civilisation, recent past, present and of course its style is perfectly suited to being
    representive of our military.

    I've followed it from the beginning- even the bells made off-site. If I was pleased about it before..... I was openly salivating seeing the images of different parts of the interior.

    Perfect..... we have built a cathedral to inspire the nation and that will still be doing it in 200,300,400 years time. Can't wait to visit it

    Replies: @another anon

    Yup, building cathedrals is the way, as every gamer knows.

    https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Cathedral

    Grand cathedral in Yamoussoukro made Ivory Coast great again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Our_Lady_of_Peace

    Length 195 metres (640 ft)
    Width 150 metres (490 ft)
    Width (nave) 55 metres (180 ft)
    Height (max) 158 metres (518 ft)
    Dome dia. (outer) 90 metres (300 ft)

    The Armed Forces cathedral is not so great

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cathedral_of_the_Russian_Armed_Forces

    Length 79 m (length-width)
    Height 95 m (top cross)
    Nave height 75 m (interior)
    Dome diameter (outer) 19.5 m

    but it will make Russia great again too, because it is perfectly designed to trigger all libs worldwide.
    What could make liberal madder than cathedral?

    Maximally based, maximally redpilled CATHEDRAL OF STALIN!

    Putin and Stalin exalted beside angels in Russia’s ‘pagan temple’

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-and-stalin-exalted-beside-angels-in-russias-pagan-temple-sb5ptswhq

  209. @AP
    @Dmitry


    “build nukes” – North Korea have the world’s most primitive nuclear weapons, and they are based on Pakistani technology.
     
    Still, North Korea, rather isolated, heavily sanctioned and with only 26 million people managed to build its own nukes and to build medium range missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers. Hundreds of millions of Arabs haven’t been able to do this, and you compare North Korea to Africa.

    “North Korea is also quite successful.” – It’s one of the most unsuccessful third world countries. Population is starving and country lives from foreign aid. It is not Nazi Germany.
     
    Mass starvation is a feature of Stalinist systems. USSR under Stalin, Mao’s China, Ethiopia under the Derg all had mass starvation.

    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their own people. Whom would you rather be in 1933 - a Berliner or Bavarian, or a Muscovite or Ukrainian? Nazis didn’t starve Germans to death. Soviets starved Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs to death, Mao starved Chinese, etc.

    But the fact there can be the world’s least successful, starving country in North Korea, and then a quite successful one which can make our televisions and cars – from the same race, shows what a total joke “a racial determinism model of development” would be
     
    1. This is just a damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union, which was a much less extreme form. There is an old expression - “socialism makes smart people poor, oil makes dumb people rich.” I suppose that Venezuela proves that the effects of socialism outweigh those of oil.

    2. Again, the system in North Korea is successful by its own standards. It is much more successful than any other Stalinist system has been. The others all disappeared, this one is still going strong.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @NazBolFren, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Are you cereal?

    Soviet Union may have had squalor until after WW2 as it was still a very much developing country. Then after the war it rapidly obtained first world standards ofl iving and surpassed Europe.

    Finally, to answer some of your other questions regarding the USSR (which you seem to be poorly educated in given your traitorus Ukranian (i mean polish) roots:

    1. Passports where not given to Kolhoz workers because they were not needed, and yet somehow there was a transfer of population from rural to urban areas. How did they do it if there were no passports? Easy. Passports could easily be acquired at the local militsia station.

    2. regarding “starvation” caused by stalinist regiemes. Sure they did happen, just like they happened in many places at that time outside USSR/communist countries. Furthermore, you seem to have a hard-on for the Tsar, but totally ignore how much Tsardom was hated by its own people – as evident from the writings of the contemporaries of the time – this accounts for constant peasant revolts and the development of a strong state security appartus by the Okhranka which later became the bases for the CheKa and NKVD. This is easily seen by how the Decembrists were treated.

    3. Under Kolkhoz, workers would work 100 days a year (after it was established) and still have a great deal of money they saved – evidenced by how farmers financed tanks and planes for the RKKA during WW2.

    4. From 1947 to 1953 (year of stalin’s death), every march 1st (I may be wrong, it might be may) the prices for essential food items decreased by about 1.5-2x.

    5. Despite much loss and destruction, under stalin’s rule the USSR increased industrial output 20x compared to other countries in europe that increased no more than 2x in the same period.

    6. During WW2 the USSR lost >20 million people, 1710 cities, 70k villages, 32k industries, 65k km of railroads, etc which was all rebuilt rapidly after the war WITHOUT outside help.

    7. Soviet production under Stalin exceeded the expected results for the 4th five year plan:
    -industrial capacity was increased 48%
    -rebuild and build 5900 factories, 85 million sq m of housing in cities, 3.6 million sq m in villages
    -surpass before war levels of industrial output and integration with the newest agricultural technologies of that time
    -rapid increases in QoL for the population

    8. Regarding things like Operation Bagration or the losses that the USSR suffered during WW2. After the winter of 1941 the USSR was always in a counteroffensive – and generally in offensives well defended positions are attacked which naturally leads to greater losses. There is little evidence that Zhukov or that WW2 Soviet commanders (past 1941) where useless. To say otherwise is being a wehraboo.

    It was not until Khruschev’s “reforms” and shitting on Stalin that the first deficits started appearing. Furthermore, had OGAS been implemented the USSR would have been 10 years ahead of the USA in internet exploitation.

    We know why Karlin hates the USSR:
    -Because his ancestors where traitorous white officers and naturally he hates that their land was lost and other priveleges.
    -He was raised to hate it and thus seeks to confirm his view in a confirmation bias.
    -What we saw in the USSR was the best educational system in the World – far superior to what was present in Tsarist Russia (this is why only 15% of the population was literate) and what is present now.

    It’s also obvious why you hate the USSR
    -You are a svidomiy ukranian (or should I say pole – because western ukranians aren’t actually ukranians but poles).
    -Poles have historical beef with Russia (since they got defeated in the 1600’s and the PIC was broken apart)

    • Replies: @another anon
    @NazBolFren

    What is "naz" about you, fren? Your comments are 100% pure "bol".

    Not that there is anything wrong with it. Real debate needs all points of view;-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pruARHoSE_8

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    , @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren

    (With a disclaimer that I think that Maddison Project Database must be a bit of unreliable trash, in how it tries to calculate real incomes.)

    In 1983, just as the economic disaster begins, Russian real GDP per capita is 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita, according to Maddison Project.

    While today it is (according to them) 63% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita - although I would say a lot lower in reality.*

    In either way, it matches our unfortunate intuition that the distance of incomes with the Western European is greater now, than it was at the beginning of the 1980s.

    -

    *It's definitely seems less than 63% of United Kingdom, from intuitive comparison.

  210. @NazBolFren
    @AP

    Are you cereal?

    Soviet Union may have had squalor until after WW2 as it was still a very much developing country. Then after the war it rapidly obtained first world standards ofl iving and surpassed Europe.

    Finally, to answer some of your other questions regarding the USSR (which you seem to be poorly educated in given your traitorus Ukranian (i mean polish) roots:

    1. Passports where not given to Kolhoz workers because they were not needed, and yet somehow there was a transfer of population from rural to urban areas. How did they do it if there were no passports? Easy. Passports could easily be acquired at the local militsia station.

    2. regarding "starvation" caused by stalinist regiemes. Sure they did happen, just like they happened in many places at that time outside USSR/communist countries. Furthermore, you seem to have a hard-on for the Tsar, but totally ignore how much Tsardom was hated by its own people - as evident from the writings of the contemporaries of the time - this accounts for constant peasant revolts and the development of a strong state security appartus by the Okhranka which later became the bases for the CheKa and NKVD. This is easily seen by how the Decembrists were treated.

    3. Under Kolkhoz, workers would work 100 days a year (after it was established) and still have a great deal of money they saved - evidenced by how farmers financed tanks and planes for the RKKA during WW2.

    4. From 1947 to 1953 (year of stalin's death), every march 1st (I may be wrong, it might be may) the prices for essential food items decreased by about 1.5-2x.

    5. Despite much loss and destruction, under stalin's rule the USSR increased industrial output 20x compared to other countries in europe that increased no more than 2x in the same period.

    6. During WW2 the USSR lost >20 million people, 1710 cities, 70k villages, 32k industries, 65k km of railroads, etc which was all rebuilt rapidly after the war WITHOUT outside help.

    7. Soviet production under Stalin exceeded the expected results for the 4th five year plan:
    -industrial capacity was increased 48%
    -rebuild and build 5900 factories, 85 million sq m of housing in cities, 3.6 million sq m in villages
    -surpass before war levels of industrial output and integration with the newest agricultural technologies of that time
    -rapid increases in QoL for the population

    8. Regarding things like Operation Bagration or the losses that the USSR suffered during WW2. After the winter of 1941 the USSR was always in a counteroffensive - and generally in offensives well defended positions are attacked which naturally leads to greater losses. There is little evidence that Zhukov or that WW2 Soviet commanders (past 1941) where useless. To say otherwise is being a wehraboo.

    It was not until Khruschev's "reforms" and shitting on Stalin that the first deficits started appearing. Furthermore, had OGAS been implemented the USSR would have been 10 years ahead of the USA in internet exploitation.

    We know why Karlin hates the USSR:
    -Because his ancestors where traitorous white officers and naturally he hates that their land was lost and other priveleges.
    -He was raised to hate it and thus seeks to confirm his view in a confirmation bias.
    -What we saw in the USSR was the best educational system in the World - far superior to what was present in Tsarist Russia (this is why only 15% of the population was literate) and what is present now.

    It's also obvious why you hate the USSR
    -You are a svidomiy ukranian (or should I say pole - because western ukranians aren't actually ukranians but poles).
    -Poles have historical beef with Russia (since they got defeated in the 1600's and the PIC was broken apart)

    Replies: @another anon, @Dmitry

    What is “naz” about you, fren? Your comments are 100% pure “bol”.

    Not that there is anything wrong with it. Real debate needs all points of view;-)

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @another anon

    thats because the modern world needs more naz :)

  211. @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    One of the most interesting aspects of Corona-chan is how it has interrupted the standard newsmedia cycle, helping to reveal how dumb, derivative, and superficial it is.

    Replies: @Znzn

    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?

    • Agree: songbird, A123
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Znzn

    I wonder if Corona-chan has caused Anatoly to reevaluate any of his ideas about nuclear war.

    Most days, I suspect I would be turned into plasma or something, if an H-bomb dropped nearby, or at least be beyond any hope of survival. But, if I try to imagine myself in a very rural location about 100-200 miles away in the mountains, and safe from radiation, I still think that the supply and economic situation might become pretty scary.

    , @A123
    @Znzn


    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?
     
    AE was kind enough to let one of his threads be used to discuss this very point.

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/from-stock-market-to-supermarket/

    Milk is being dumped because the supply chain cannot manufacture additional 1-gallon containers. To save a fraction of a cent per jug, production changed over to huge industrial machines that are highly automated and run 24 x 7 as a norm. Commercial customers buy milk in 2.5 gallon bags (or larger) not labelled for retail sale.
    _____

    The Conservative Treehouse did a number of in depth articles :

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/03/26/phase-four-supply-chain-prioritizes-proteins-return-manufactured-processed-grain-products-still-lag/

    PEACE 😷
    .
    https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/food-production-1.jpg
  212. @another anon
    @NazBolFren

    What is "naz" about you, fren? Your comments are 100% pure "bol".

    Not that there is anything wrong with it. Real debate needs all points of view;-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pruARHoSE_8

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    thats because the modern world needs more naz 🙂

  213. @Znzn
    @songbird

    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?

    Replies: @songbird, @A123

    I wonder if Corona-chan has caused Anatoly to reevaluate any of his ideas about nuclear war.

    Most days, I suspect I would be turned into plasma or something, if an H-bomb dropped nearby, or at least be beyond any hope of survival. But, if I try to imagine myself in a very rural location about 100-200 miles away in the mountains, and safe from radiation, I still think that the supply and economic situation might become pretty scary.

  214. @Dmitry
    @AP


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this
     
    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).

    managed to build its own nukes
     
    They didn't build their own - they were from Pakistani blueprints.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.
     
    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point.

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).


    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their

     

    Nazi Germany was the most powerful country in Europe and still a culturally dominating power (even as the terrible government resulted in loss of large proportion of their scientists, writers, musicians, even to the USSR e.g. Kurt Sanderling). The point is that North Korea is not a normal European style of dictatorship. It's not even a South American "Banana Republic" - which exports useful products like bananas.

    It is an African level of family dictatorship (where the leader has a harem, etc), that cannot industrialize to third world levels, and only has the benefit of some industrialized looking Potemkin villages - so naive observers will think that they are industrialized.

    North Korea is actually a mainly subsistence economy.


    damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union
     
    It shows that the political layer (rather than factors like race, or even culture), can be completely determining success or failure of the country.

    In North Korea, this political layer is a African style of family dictatorship.

    It is not "damnation of communism", as we know what life in communism can be like with more adequate leaders. USSR has been the world's only superpower (apart from the USA) in the last century, and people lived very well by later stages. But this is similar across Europe: life was not so terrible in countries like Yugoslavia, German Democratic Republic, either.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

    To be fair, North Korea did very well while it was propped up by Soviet money and resources. At that time, North Korea was also able to trade with China/USSR and was able to obtain resources that are not present on the rocky Korean peninsula.

    I have heard accounts that South Korea would not be doing too well either, if not for American money propping up its economy – as outside 4 main companies (Samsung, LG, Hyundai, SK holdings) the south korean economy is not productive. It also doesn’t need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.

    It would be interesting to see how well South Korea does if America entirely withdrew.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @NazBolFren


    It also doesn’t need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.
     
    You are confusing them with Japan.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  215. @songbird
    @Dacian Julien Soros


    UK and Germany negotiated planeloads of Romanian agricultural workers. Austria negotiated trainloads of unqualified “healthcare workers”
     
    This is about the price of labor. It has nothing to do with natives refusing to do the work. It is hardly surprising that natives don't want to live in dorms paying rent to their employers, and working for slave wages. The companies know this, and when natives apply they hire Romanians instead.

    Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros

    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it? (FYI, Romanian farm workers live in crowded conditions simply because they don’t make the money to live at The Ritz. Most of them would stay at The Ritz, like any consoomer, given the chance.)

    How is that “hard working”? How can “hard work” depend on the pay rate? Italians and Spaniards would wank abut on Zoom and Slack for 30 an hour, just like Anglos and Germos, given the chance. You can’t call them lazy simply because their economy is not based on wanking on Zoom.

    Also, sending your grandma, like the Austrians do, to an old people’s house, to be washed by a spic, is beyond hard working / lack thereof. You should be able to care for your family even if you are not paid, and even if your living conditions get a bit worse. Most of these 80-year old disabled Austrians have 60-year old children, who are retired as well. Their failure to care for their parents is more than laziness. It is not “refuse to work”, it is not “poor housing”. Your parents f**ng hosted you for almost 20 years, fed you and washed you. Austrians are unChristian satans.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    You're right. Anglos and Germans are not as hard-working as Balkanoids, just vastly more competent and productive (also better-looking)

    Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros

    , @songbird
    @Dacian Julien Soros


    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it?
     
    I'm fairly agnostic on a hierarchy of work ethic among various European peoples. I am not a mega-industrialist, with the personal experience of employing large numbers of each people, and it is not a question I lose sleep over. But I do know this: if wages were the same in Romania, Romanians would not be harvesting crops in England or Ireland.
    , @EldnahYm
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    The hardest working U.K. natives are probably not the sort of people who work low wage jobs. For this reason, it may not be methodologically sound to compare native laborers with Romanian migrants. Low wage laborers in developed countries might be low quality people.

    It's also not a totally crazy idea to suggest people with greater incentives will work harder, and there are large wages differences between the U.K. and Romania.

    I suspect Romania has lazy people too.

  216. A123 says:
    @Znzn
    @songbird

    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?

    Replies: @songbird, @A123

    Maybe it has exposed how shallow and lacking in redundancy the modern supply chain is?

    AE was kind enough to let one of his threads be used to discuss this very point.

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/from-stock-market-to-supermarket/

    Milk is being dumped because the supply chain cannot manufacture additional 1-gallon containers. To save a fraction of a cent per jug, production changed over to huge industrial machines that are highly automated and run 24 x 7 as a norm. Commercial customers buy milk in 2.5 gallon bags (or larger) not labelled for retail sale.
    _____

    The Conservative Treehouse did a number of in depth articles :

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/03/26/phase-four-supply-chain-prioritizes-proteins-return-manufactured-processed-grain-products-still-lag/

    PEACE 😷
    .

  217. @Dacian Julien Soros
    @songbird

    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it? (FYI, Romanian farm workers live in crowded conditions simply because they don't make the money to live at The Ritz. Most of them would stay at The Ritz, like any consoomer, given the chance.)

    How is that "hard working"? How can "hard work" depend on the pay rate? Italians and Spaniards would wank abut on Zoom and Slack for 30 an hour, just like Anglos and Germos, given the chance. You can't call them lazy simply because their economy is not based on wanking on Zoom.

    Also, sending your grandma, like the Austrians do, to an old people's house, to be washed by a spic, is beyond hard working / lack thereof. You should be able to care for your family even if you are not paid, and even if your living conditions get a bit worse. Most of these 80-year old disabled Austrians have 60-year old children, who are retired as well. Their failure to care for their parents is more than laziness. It is not "refuse to work", it is not "poor housing". Your parents f**ng hosted you for almost 20 years, fed you and washed you. Austrians are unChristian satans.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird, @EldnahYm

    You’re right. Anglos and Germans are not as hard-working as Balkanoids, just vastly more competent and productive (also better-looking)

    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
    @Kent Nationalist

    It's not Germans - it's Germos, or else you will leave out the parent-hating Austrians.

    Btw, do you know if your parents are still alive? Last I read, there were more covid deaths in your extracommunitarian shithole than in the whole of Asia and Europe taken together. Perhaps you should stop your hard work here, and make your annual phone call, while they are still alive.

  218. @NazBolFren
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, North Korea did very well while it was propped up by Soviet money and resources. At that time, North Korea was also able to trade with China/USSR and was able to obtain resources that are not present on the rocky Korean peninsula.

    I have heard accounts that South Korea would not be doing too well either, if not for American money propping up its economy - as outside 4 main companies (Samsung, LG, Hyundai, SK holdings) the south korean economy is not productive. It also doesn't need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.

    It would be interesting to see how well South Korea does if America entirely withdrew.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    It also doesn’t need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.

    You are confusing them with Japan.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mitleser

    Korea does have US forces on its soil as far as I'm aware

  219. @Mitleser
    @NazBolFren


    It also doesn’t need to spend much on military as its protection is guaranteed by America.
     
    You are confusing them with Japan.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    Korea does have US forces on its soil as far as I’m aware

  220. @Kent Nationalist
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    You're right. Anglos and Germans are not as hard-working as Balkanoids, just vastly more competent and productive (also better-looking)

    Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros

    It’s not Germans – it’s Germos, or else you will leave out the parent-hating Austrians.

    Btw, do you know if your parents are still alive? Last I read, there were more covid deaths in your extracommunitarian shithole than in the whole of Asia and Europe taken together. Perhaps you should stop your hard work here, and make your annual phone call, while they are still alive.

  221. @NazBolFren
    @AP

    Are you cereal?

    Soviet Union may have had squalor until after WW2 as it was still a very much developing country. Then after the war it rapidly obtained first world standards ofl iving and surpassed Europe.

    Finally, to answer some of your other questions regarding the USSR (which you seem to be poorly educated in given your traitorus Ukranian (i mean polish) roots:

    1. Passports where not given to Kolhoz workers because they were not needed, and yet somehow there was a transfer of population from rural to urban areas. How did they do it if there were no passports? Easy. Passports could easily be acquired at the local militsia station.

    2. regarding "starvation" caused by stalinist regiemes. Sure they did happen, just like they happened in many places at that time outside USSR/communist countries. Furthermore, you seem to have a hard-on for the Tsar, but totally ignore how much Tsardom was hated by its own people - as evident from the writings of the contemporaries of the time - this accounts for constant peasant revolts and the development of a strong state security appartus by the Okhranka which later became the bases for the CheKa and NKVD. This is easily seen by how the Decembrists were treated.

    3. Under Kolkhoz, workers would work 100 days a year (after it was established) and still have a great deal of money they saved - evidenced by how farmers financed tanks and planes for the RKKA during WW2.

    4. From 1947 to 1953 (year of stalin's death), every march 1st (I may be wrong, it might be may) the prices for essential food items decreased by about 1.5-2x.

    5. Despite much loss and destruction, under stalin's rule the USSR increased industrial output 20x compared to other countries in europe that increased no more than 2x in the same period.

    6. During WW2 the USSR lost >20 million people, 1710 cities, 70k villages, 32k industries, 65k km of railroads, etc which was all rebuilt rapidly after the war WITHOUT outside help.

    7. Soviet production under Stalin exceeded the expected results for the 4th five year plan:
    -industrial capacity was increased 48%
    -rebuild and build 5900 factories, 85 million sq m of housing in cities, 3.6 million sq m in villages
    -surpass before war levels of industrial output and integration with the newest agricultural technologies of that time
    -rapid increases in QoL for the population

    8. Regarding things like Operation Bagration or the losses that the USSR suffered during WW2. After the winter of 1941 the USSR was always in a counteroffensive - and generally in offensives well defended positions are attacked which naturally leads to greater losses. There is little evidence that Zhukov or that WW2 Soviet commanders (past 1941) where useless. To say otherwise is being a wehraboo.

    It was not until Khruschev's "reforms" and shitting on Stalin that the first deficits started appearing. Furthermore, had OGAS been implemented the USSR would have been 10 years ahead of the USA in internet exploitation.

    We know why Karlin hates the USSR:
    -Because his ancestors where traitorous white officers and naturally he hates that their land was lost and other priveleges.
    -He was raised to hate it and thus seeks to confirm his view in a confirmation bias.
    -What we saw in the USSR was the best educational system in the World - far superior to what was present in Tsarist Russia (this is why only 15% of the population was literate) and what is present now.

    It's also obvious why you hate the USSR
    -You are a svidomiy ukranian (or should I say pole - because western ukranians aren't actually ukranians but poles).
    -Poles have historical beef with Russia (since they got defeated in the 1600's and the PIC was broken apart)

    Replies: @another anon, @Dmitry

    (With a disclaimer that I think that Maddison Project Database must be a bit of unreliable trash, in how it tries to calculate real incomes.)

    In 1983, just as the economic disaster begins, Russian real GDP per capita is 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita, according to Maddison Project.

    While today it is (according to them) 63% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita – although I would say a lot lower in reality.*

    In either way, it matches our unfortunate intuition that the distance of incomes with the Western European is greater now, than it was at the beginning of the 1980s.

    *It’s definitely seems less than 63% of United Kingdom, from intuitive comparison.

  222. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this
     
    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).

    managed to build its own nukes
     
    They didn't build their own - they were from Pakistani blueprints.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.
     
    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point.

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).


    Of course it is not Nazi Germany. While evil towards outsiders, Nazism treated its own people much better and provided them with much better lives than do Stalinist systems for their

     

    Nazi Germany was the most powerful country in Europe and still a culturally dominating power (even as the terrible government resulted in loss of large proportion of their scientists, writers, musicians, even to the USSR e.g. Kurt Sanderling). The point is that North Korea is not a normal European style of dictatorship. It's not even a South American "Banana Republic" - which exports useful products like bananas.

    It is an African level of family dictatorship (where the leader has a harem, etc), that cannot industrialize to third world levels, and only has the benefit of some industrialized looking Potemkin villages - so naive observers will think that they are industrialized.

    North Korea is actually a mainly subsistence economy.


    damnation of Communism. It makes even the lives of East Asians dirt poor and miserable. It’s not surprising. Look at the squalor of the Soviet Union
     
    It shows that the political layer (rather than factors like race, or even culture), can be completely determining success or failure of the country.

    In North Korea, this political layer is a African style of family dictatorship.

    It is not "damnation of communism", as we know what life in communism can be like with more adequate leaders. USSR has been the world's only superpower (apart from the USA) in the last century, and people lived very well by later stages. But this is similar across Europe: life was not so terrible in countries like Yugoslavia, German Democratic Republic, either.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

    Arabs haven’t been able to do this

    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).

    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

    managed to build its own nukes

    They didn’t build their own – they were from Pakistani blueprints.

    And Soviets stole their plans also.

    North Korea has made nukes and has missiles with 13,000 km range. A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.

    [USSR] and people lived very well by later stages.

    I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible. The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.

    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point

    There was also mass starvation after World War II.

    USSR was importing massive quantities of grain, it couldn’t feed itself:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/1982-03-01/soviet-agricultures-dependence-west

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).

    USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA. Its military could keep up (barely) but its standard of living fell behind that of Greece or Portugal.

    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess with. North Korea, like the USSR, might not be able to feed itself consistently, but it supports a military of 1.2 million. If such a country had the population of the USA, it would be a military of 15 million people. If Russia, it would be a 7 million man military.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @AP

    >I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible.

    So you never lived there? That explains alot about your ignorance.

    Sure if you visit a shitty city like Shahtyu you will see squalor and filth. Visit nicer places and they will be nicer. Just like anywhere else.

    >The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.

    You should probably go visit a housing project, then you would see how ridiculous your statement is.

    >USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA.

    Right, lets not ignore that the USA had 150-200 years of uninterrupted growth whereas the USSR went through three wars with significant population losses, where it had to rebuild from scratch. As its said in Russian, "сравнил хер с пальцем ".

    The fact that the USSR surpassed almost all capitalist economies in the world despite this is miraculous.

    >It too has a shitty standard of living

    According to whom? You? The Western Media? If you're on UNZ one expects that you don't buy into the media lies. Go actually see videos of people who visited North Korea (not just Pyongyang), you can see the people live quite well.

    There was also a livejournal run by a Russian whose dad was a Russian diplomat to North Korea who wrote about the day to day life of average people. He dispelled many myths about it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @AP


    visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid
     
    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country's economy had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already.

    I'm sure it's an interesting experience, to see such a collapse. But I've seen squalid in my own tourist experiences in America (and I'm sure more easily if I visited in the Great Depression, rather than the 21st century), but I won't confuse a squalid tourist experiences with the economic data.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983. That is not true. But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries. My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can't explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.


    The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.
     
    People often lived in ways which can be considered bourgeois in Western Europe. To give one example - a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.

    As for materially - my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind - perhaps slightly lower quality - than belongs to people in Western Europe of that epoch. I.e. they had material goods typical of industrialized countries of the 1980s.


    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

     

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects. Similarly, as Egypt or Morocco could, if they didn't have adequate governments that prefer to avoid sanctions.

    This is called "Nuclear Nonproliferation". Countries didn't develop nuclear weapons not because of lack of technology or human capital (which is now blueprints from Pakistan for North Korea or Syria), but because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world for nuclear proliferation.


    And Soviets stole their plans also.

     

    It's a strange comparison. Soviet Union developed the world's most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, North Korea has developed the world's most primitive nuclear weapon program, and according to Pakistani technology. Moreover, they have built some unfinished Potemkin village to pretended to be industrialized, and still not finished Ryugyong Hotel. While the population live on subsidence level.


    A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.
     
    There is no original R&D. It's following Pakistani blueprints, and recreating things which were solved by others in the 1940s.

    Don't confuse original invention of such weapons, and the requirements to follow blueprints to recreate mechanisms developed 70 years before. The difficulty there is not anymore technological, but the reaction of the international community. It is primarily a diplomatic, rather than technological, difficulty involved.


    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess...
    supports a military of 1.2 million
     
    I don't think this is a good metric. Its nuclear program is the most primitive one that exists (e.g. weak countries like Israel and Pakistan have a much more advanced one, from decades earlier), and is a result of a country having "nothing to lose" diplomatically, rather than any indication of power.

    It has a subsistence economy, and has failed to industrialize, even after more than 70 years of trying. Abstract numbers about soldiers? - it does not seem useful information, although such numbers if actually true or based in some reality, could indicate the amount of unproductive free labour in the country.

    Replies: @AP, @JL

  223. @Dacian Julien Soros
    @songbird

    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it? (FYI, Romanian farm workers live in crowded conditions simply because they don't make the money to live at The Ritz. Most of them would stay at The Ritz, like any consoomer, given the chance.)

    How is that "hard working"? How can "hard work" depend on the pay rate? Italians and Spaniards would wank abut on Zoom and Slack for 30 an hour, just like Anglos and Germos, given the chance. You can't call them lazy simply because their economy is not based on wanking on Zoom.

    Also, sending your grandma, like the Austrians do, to an old people's house, to be washed by a spic, is beyond hard working / lack thereof. You should be able to care for your family even if you are not paid, and even if your living conditions get a bit worse. Most of these 80-year old disabled Austrians have 60-year old children, who are retired as well. Their failure to care for their parents is more than laziness. It is not "refuse to work", it is not "poor housing". Your parents f**ng hosted you for almost 20 years, fed you and washed you. Austrians are unChristian satans.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird, @EldnahYm

    So what you are saying is that you still believe Anglos and Germos are most hard working, but the current pay rate prevents them from showing it?

    I’m fairly agnostic on a hierarchy of work ethic among various European peoples. I am not a mega-industrialist, with the personal experience of employing large numbers of each people, and it is not a question I lose sleep over. But I do know this: if wages were the same in Romania, Romanians would not be harvesting crops in England or Ireland.

  224. @AP
    @Dmitry


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this

    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).
     
    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

    managed to build its own nukes

    They didn’t build their own – they were from Pakistani blueprints.
     
    And Soviets stole their plans also.

    North Korea has made nukes and has missiles with 13,000 km range. A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.

    [USSR] and people lived very well by later stages.
     
    I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible. The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than "middle class" Soviets, materially.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.

    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point
     
    There was also mass starvation after World War II.

    USSR was importing massive quantities of grain, it couldn't feed itself:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/1982-03-01/soviet-agricultures-dependence-west

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).
     
    USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA. Its military could keep up (barely) but its standard of living fell behind that of Greece or Portugal.

    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess with. North Korea, like the USSR, might not be able to feed itself consistently, but it supports a military of 1.2 million. If such a country had the population of the USA, it would be a military of 15 million people. If Russia, it would be a 7 million man military.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Dmitry

    >I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible.

    So you never lived there? That explains alot about your ignorance.

    Sure if you visit a shitty city like Shahtyu you will see squalor and filth. Visit nicer places and they will be nicer. Just like anywhere else.

    >The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.

    You should probably go visit a housing project, then you would see how ridiculous your statement is.

    >USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA.

    Right, lets not ignore that the USA had 150-200 years of uninterrupted growth whereas the USSR went through three wars with significant population losses, where it had to rebuild from scratch. As its said in Russian, “сравнил хер с пальцем “.

    The fact that the USSR surpassed almost all capitalist economies in the world despite this is miraculous.

    >It too has a shitty standard of living

    According to whom? You? The Western Media? If you’re on UNZ one expects that you don’t buy into the media lies. Go actually see videos of people who visited North Korea (not just Pyongyang), you can see the people live quite well.

    There was also a livejournal run by a Russian whose dad was a Russian diplomat to North Korea who wrote about the day to day life of average people. He dispelled many myths about it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren

    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s, and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw, compared to in America.

    Part of this will be because he came after 5-6 years of terrible economic collapse (I'm sure the atmosphere in America was not too happy, during the Great Depression). This is also during political crisis, and a time of peoples' spiritual and even public health collapse.

    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world's most wealthy countries - America, and probably not from South Bronx. If you live in a very wealthy part of a wealthy country (even for a couple weeks), then you can receive such culture shock when you leave the plane, and walking in a normal area of a normal country. I have this experience a lot, after living in a wealthy part of Northern Western Europe.

    And part of his observations accurate - that a large part of Soviet housing stock is low quality, compared to e.g. American, German or English housing. That this comparatively can reduce living standard. Also buildings can be dirty, and badly presented for tourists. Etc (just like in a lot of cities still today).

    Although you can visit countries like Israel now in 2020, and see even worse housing stocks. And yet if you investigate a bit more, you might find the population has quite high standards of living in other ways. Or even in countries with very good living standards like Spain today, most people live in small apartments, in ugly concrete box buildings.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

  225. I think you lost track. My first message in this thread, and the only reason I decide to waste my time providing content to a blogger who’d write 5 screens on Lord of the Thrones, is message #173, that I even quoted. It says “Anglos are surely the second least lazy, decadent, in Europe, after the other Germanic language speaking countries”.

    I am debating that. If anything, the fact that Austrians farm their elderly, shows they are worse than lazy. Maybe at other times, you could have said “Austrians are busy building space ships”, or “Romanians know best how to wipe ass”, or “it’s a matter of supply and demand”. But we know that covid is particularly bad for farmed elderly. Austrians are paying Romanians to infect their elderly. Not only they won’t care for them now; they want their elderly dead, so that they’ll never have to care again for them. Peak laziness.

    I generally think that people are all the same, if external factors are similar, but this shit got me thinking about Austrians. Sadly, Dmitry is not the thinking kind.

    Now, how can I involve you in our discussion? Or would you prefer to carry on the stream of consciousness path?

  226. @AP
    @Dmitry


    Arabs haven’t been able to do this

    Only because Israel bombs the projects (Iraq, Syria), or because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world (countries with sensible governments like Egypt).
     
    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

    managed to build its own nukes

    They didn’t build their own – they were from Pakistani blueprints.
     
    And Soviets stole their plans also.

    North Korea has made nukes and has missiles with 13,000 km range. A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.

    [USSR] and people lived very well by later stages.
     
    I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible. The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than "middle class" Soviets, materially.

    is a feature of Stalinist systems.

    In the USSR, starvation was only during the process of industrialization of agriculture. This was temporary transition point
     
    There was also mass starvation after World War II.

    USSR was importing massive quantities of grain, it couldn't feed itself:

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/1982-03-01/soviet-agricultures-dependence-west

    And of course, the comparison (to the Soviet Union) is not possible to understand. Stalin has left the Soviet Union as possibly the most powerful country in the world (or equal to the USA).
     
    USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA. Its military could keep up (barely) but its standard of living fell behind that of Greece or Portugal.

    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess with. North Korea, like the USSR, might not be able to feed itself consistently, but it supports a military of 1.2 million. If such a country had the population of the USA, it would be a military of 15 million people. If Russia, it would be a 7 million man military.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Dmitry

    visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid

    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country’s economy had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already.

    I’m sure it’s an interesting experience, to see such a collapse. But I’ve seen squalid in my own tourist experiences in America (and I’m sure more easily if I visited in the Great Depression, rather than the 21st century), but I won’t confuse a squalid tourist experiences with the economic data.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983. That is not true. But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries. My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can’t explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.

    The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.

    People often lived in ways which can be considered bourgeois in Western Europe. To give one example – a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.

    As for materially – my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind – perhaps slightly lower quality – than belongs to people in Western Europe of that epoch. I.e. they had material goods typical of industrialized countries of the 1980s.

    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects. Similarly, as Egypt or Morocco could, if they didn’t have adequate governments that prefer to avoid sanctions.

    This is called “Nuclear Nonproliferation”. Countries didn’t develop nuclear weapons not because of lack of technology or human capital (which is now blueprints from Pakistan for North Korea or Syria), but because they don’t want to be sanctioned by the world for nuclear proliferation.

    And Soviets stole their plans also.

    It’s a strange comparison. Soviet Union developed the world’s most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, North Korea has developed the world’s most primitive nuclear weapon program, and according to Pakistani technology. Moreover, they have built some unfinished Potemkin village to pretended to be industrialized, and still not finished Ryugyong Hotel. While the population live on subsidence level.

    A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.

    There is no original R&D. It’s following Pakistani blueprints, and recreating things which were solved by others in the 1940s.

    Don’t confuse original invention of such weapons, and the requirements to follow blueprints to recreate mechanisms developed 70 years before. The difficulty there is not anymore technological, but the reaction of the international community. It is primarily a diplomatic, rather than technological, difficulty involved.

    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess…
    supports a military of 1.2 million

    I don’t think this is a good metric. Its nuclear program is the most primitive one that exists (e.g. weak countries like Israel and Pakistan have a much more advanced one, from decades earlier), and is a result of a country having “nothing to lose” diplomatically, rather than any indication of power.

    It has a subsistence economy, and has failed to industrialize, even after more than 70 years of trying. Abstract numbers about soldiers? – it does not seem useful information, although such numbers if actually true or based in some reality, could indicate the amount of unproductive free labour in the country.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country’s economy
     
    I think it was 1990. I stayed at tourist hotels but also with family, and visited many relatives in their apartments, so I saw how people actually lived. By Western standards it was poverty. Large numbers of people crammed into small apartments. Few cars, and those that existed were of quality so low I had never experienced it. Not much, and poor quality, food (except bread, which admittedly was perhaps the best I have tasted). Quality of clothes as in the third world.

    had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already
     
    There was no war, plague, or other event to trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system's inherent inferiority.

    And it is no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela. There is always an excuse.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983
     
    I don't have time to hunt for the graph for 1983. Wiki has 1973. In 1973, the USSR had about half the GDP per capita of the UK and slightly more than one third that of the USA. It was worse than fascist Spain and Portugal. It was only about 20% higher than in Mexico:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#1%E2%80%932008_(Maddison)

    A disproportionate amount of the Soviet economy was tied up with the military so the discrepancy between the Soviets and the others in terms of civilian life was even much greater than that indicated by the GDP figures.

    But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries.
     
    We hosted an aunt and uncle from the USSR in the early 1980s (their kids weren't allowed to join them because the Soviets wanted the parents to return). They were shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot. Not only by the number of them but by the quality; they were much better than Volgas, and no comparison to Zhigulis. Their initial thought was: this was propaganda, a show - the government parked those cars there to make it look like workers were so wealthy. They were amazed by the stores, supermarkets, houses, private swimming pools, etc.

    To give one example – a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.
     
    This is possible when everyone is equally poor. The physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.

    In Soviet times people "lived well" because they weren't starving, they could afford some basic low quality things, and everyone was about equally poor so they did not have much cause to be envious.

    As for materially – my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind – perhaps slightly lower quality – than belongs to people in Western Europe
     
    So do the poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks. A 15 year old car owned by an American lumpen was still better than a new Soviet-era car that most Soviets could not even afford.

    Meanwhile when one of my relatives was a baby in Soviet Russia during Brezhnev times, she and her brother lived with her parents, grandmother and great-grandmother in a two room apartment. Kids, grandmother and great-grandmother all shared one room, parents had the other room. In America only the poorest lumpens have such crowded conditions. Her parents were both university professors.

    There is of course a vast cultural difference between poor lumpens in America and middle class Soviets. For this reason one would certainly prefer to live among the latter than among the former. But materially, in terms of living space, number and quality of possessions - not much difference.

    Soviet Union developed the world’s most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.
     
    Soviet military capacity nearly matched that of the West but everything else was far behind. Just as North Korea's military capacity matches that of its Westernized neighbors but the country otherwise is far behind.

    And yet North Koreans accomplished this. [nukes and missiles]

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects.
     
    North Korea has developed the powerful military capacity to deter attacks on its nuclear project. This is part of why it is such a successful country, according to the Stalinist model..

    North Korea has developed the world’s most primitive nuclear
     
    A small country of 26 million under intense sanctions and scrutiny. An amazing feat.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @JL
    @Dmitry


    My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can’t explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.
     
    This reminds me of the joke about the child's conversation with his grandfather:

    Child: "Grandpa, who was it better to live under, Putin or Stalin?"
    Grandfather (without hesitation): "That's easy, son, Stalin."
    Child: "Stalin?! But...Why?"
    Grandfather: "Because, son, I could still get it up under Stalin."

    Btw, hallucinogens are not addictive.
  227. @Dmitry
    If we're allowed to discuss the coronavirus situation here:

    Growth in infection today - a large part is driven from Moscow where we assumed plateau, but here I think it might be just be related to massive increase in testing in that city in recent days ( https://www.mos.ru/news/item/73504073 ).

    -
    For the last 3 days data:

    Russian Federation
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 106498 | 114431 | 124054
    Growth: +7099 | +7933 | +9623
    Percent 7.14% | 7.45% | 8.41%


    Moscow
    Date: 30.04 |01.05 | 02.05
    Infected: 53739 |57300 |62658
    Growth: +3093 | +3561 |+5358
    Percent 6.11% | 6.63% | 9.35%


    -

    Replies: @Znzn, @SteveK9

    Infections everywhere are around 100X what is reported, since the majority don’t even have symptoms. You can pay some attention to ‘Covid Deaths’ but even that is highly untrustworthy. If you had a 8 bypass surgeries, and died of a heart attack and happened to test positive, you are a ‘Covid Death’. At this point in the US they are feverishly padding the numbers (now you don’t even need a positive test, just similar symptoms), in order to justify the insane lockdown and the suspension of civil liberties, like the idiotic 2-meter rule, and bandito masks. You can trace the course of the epidemic to some extent in individual countries but trying to compare them is almost useless now.

    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
  228. @NazBolFren
    @AP

    >I visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid, and horrible.

    So you never lived there? That explains alot about your ignorance.

    Sure if you visit a shitty city like Shahtyu you will see squalor and filth. Visit nicer places and they will be nicer. Just like anywhere else.

    >The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.

    You should probably go visit a housing project, then you would see how ridiculous your statement is.

    >USSR had about 182 million people in 1950. USA was only 152 million. USSR was the most populous country in the world after China and India. And yet it had to settle for second place after the USA.

    Right, lets not ignore that the USA had 150-200 years of uninterrupted growth whereas the USSR went through three wars with significant population losses, where it had to rebuild from scratch. As its said in Russian, "сравнил хер с пальцем ".

    The fact that the USSR surpassed almost all capitalist economies in the world despite this is miraculous.

    >It too has a shitty standard of living

    According to whom? You? The Western Media? If you're on UNZ one expects that you don't buy into the media lies. Go actually see videos of people who visited North Korea (not just Pyongyang), you can see the people live quite well.

    There was also a livejournal run by a Russian whose dad was a Russian diplomat to North Korea who wrote about the day to day life of average people. He dispelled many myths about it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s, and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw, compared to in America.

    Part of this will be because he came after 5-6 years of terrible economic collapse (I’m sure the atmosphere in America was not too happy, during the Great Depression). This is also during political crisis, and a time of peoples’ spiritual and even public health collapse.

    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world’s most wealthy countries – America, and probably not from South Bronx. If you live in a very wealthy part of a wealthy country (even for a couple weeks), then you can receive such culture shock when you leave the plane, and walking in a normal area of a normal country. I have this experience a lot, after living in a wealthy part of Northern Western Europe.

    And part of his observations accurate – that a large part of Soviet housing stock is low quality, compared to e.g. American, German or English housing. That this comparatively can reduce living standard. Also buildings can be dirty, and badly presented for tourists. Etc (just like in a lot of cities still today).

    Although you can visit countries like Israel now in 2020, and see even worse housing stocks. And yet if you investigate a bit more, you might find the population has quite high standards of living in other ways. Or even in countries with very good living standards like Spain today, most people live in small apartments, in ugly concrete box buildings.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Dmitry

    Ah I see. Kiev in 1990's is not representative of the USSR or how the people lived at all. By that time the government had essentially collapsed, infrastructure was destroyed, and it was gangsterism everywhere.

    Although I'd disagree with your observations about housing - the people who lived in shitty, old khruschevka's were mostly working class and this is very often the case for people from most countries.

    But you are absolutely right, if AP lived in rich cities of America (I went on a road trip through Connecticut and the squalor and destruction I saw looked worse than what I saw in the 90's) then its not surprising he had such a culture shock.

    Also, lets not forget that much of the Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing after the war and was supposed to be replaced - I read about how the Soviet leadership planned to do a gradual upgrade and replacement of the khruschevka's on a large scale throughout the country by the late 80's - but it never happened because of the collapse.


    Finally, a brief mention on North Korea (so I don't spam posts) - I greatly respect the fact that North Korea is keeping its country closed and protected from the general cultural degeneration that we see throughout the West (and in South Korea itself). Also, people overestimate North Korean poverty and government incompetence (they have extensive military R&D but are severely limited in resources) and underestimate the effect isolation and sanctions are having on it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw
     
    Ukraine was sovereign but not yet independent, I was there in 1990 when the USSR still existed. People were actually optimistic and happy, this wasn't like 1995 or 1999.

    They were just all very poor and everything was scarce and of very shoddy quality.


    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world’s most wealthy countries – America, and probably not from South Bronx.
     
    I had driven past Chicago ghettos and rural trailer parks. Obviously these were more dangerous and more littered, because people were different. But materially there was little difference.

    I was in high school, so I was often focused on silly things - crappy clothes, many women didn't shave their legs, lack of deodorant, third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole. Girls were very friendly, but unappealing if one wasn't desperate. The public shared a water glass which was disgusting (but the fact that no one stole or destroyed the glass was remarkable; no doubt North Korea is similarly disciplined). I had never experienced a car as bad as the Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car. Ukraine seems to have been richer than Poland at the time, and poor Poles were selling stuff in Kiev (they were called spekulanty).

    Wonderful experience though, due to the warmth of family reunions. And a great lesson on the economic effects of socialism.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

  229. @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren

    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s, and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw, compared to in America.

    Part of this will be because he came after 5-6 years of terrible economic collapse (I'm sure the atmosphere in America was not too happy, during the Great Depression). This is also during political crisis, and a time of peoples' spiritual and even public health collapse.

    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world's most wealthy countries - America, and probably not from South Bronx. If you live in a very wealthy part of a wealthy country (even for a couple weeks), then you can receive such culture shock when you leave the plane, and walking in a normal area of a normal country. I have this experience a lot, after living in a wealthy part of Northern Western Europe.

    And part of his observations accurate - that a large part of Soviet housing stock is low quality, compared to e.g. American, German or English housing. That this comparatively can reduce living standard. Also buildings can be dirty, and badly presented for tourists. Etc (just like in a lot of cities still today).

    Although you can visit countries like Israel now in 2020, and see even worse housing stocks. And yet if you investigate a bit more, you might find the population has quite high standards of living in other ways. Or even in countries with very good living standards like Spain today, most people live in small apartments, in ugly concrete box buildings.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

    Ah I see. Kiev in 1990’s is not representative of the USSR or how the people lived at all. By that time the government had essentially collapsed, infrastructure was destroyed, and it was gangsterism everywhere.

    Although I’d disagree with your observations about housing – the people who lived in shitty, old khruschevka’s were mostly working class and this is very often the case for people from most countries.

    But you are absolutely right, if AP lived in rich cities of America (I went on a road trip through Connecticut and the squalor and destruction I saw looked worse than what I saw in the 90’s) then its not surprising he had such a culture shock.

    Also, lets not forget that much of the Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing after the war and was supposed to be replaced – I read about how the Soviet leadership planned to do a gradual upgrade and replacement of the khruschevka’s on a large scale throughout the country by the late 80’s – but it never happened because of the collapse.

    Finally, a brief mention on North Korea (so I don’t spam posts) – I greatly respect the fact that North Korea is keeping its country closed and protected from the general cultural degeneration that we see throughout the West (and in South Korea itself). Also, people overestimate North Korean poverty and government incompetence (they have extensive military R&D but are severely limited in resources) and underestimate the effect isolation and sanctions are having on it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren


    old khruschevka... Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing
     
    It was constructed for 30 year lifespan, and it was good housing when it was new relative to where people were living before.

    This prefabricated building design is low quality, but they usually placed it in excellent infrastructure, transport access, and every apartment equipped with electricity (which was exciting in the 1960s).

    The design specifications were only for 30 years, and the idea was that it would all be demolished and upgraded. As we know, the country collapsed before.

    It can be fine to live in those building, but only depending on the cultural level of your neighbours. The disadvantage was the difficulty to avoid having drunks in your building, and not being able to filter out your type of neighbours by price. If everyone in the building is behaving in a civilized way, then they can be habitable.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

  230. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP


    visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid
     
    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country's economy had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already.

    I'm sure it's an interesting experience, to see such a collapse. But I've seen squalid in my own tourist experiences in America (and I'm sure more easily if I visited in the Great Depression, rather than the 21st century), but I won't confuse a squalid tourist experiences with the economic data.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983. That is not true. But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries. My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can't explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.


    The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.
     
    People often lived in ways which can be considered bourgeois in Western Europe. To give one example - a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.

    As for materially - my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind - perhaps slightly lower quality - than belongs to people in Western Europe of that epoch. I.e. they had material goods typical of industrialized countries of the 1980s.


    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

     

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects. Similarly, as Egypt or Morocco could, if they didn't have adequate governments that prefer to avoid sanctions.

    This is called "Nuclear Nonproliferation". Countries didn't develop nuclear weapons not because of lack of technology or human capital (which is now blueprints from Pakistan for North Korea or Syria), but because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world for nuclear proliferation.


    And Soviets stole their plans also.

     

    It's a strange comparison. Soviet Union developed the world's most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, North Korea has developed the world's most primitive nuclear weapon program, and according to Pakistani technology. Moreover, they have built some unfinished Potemkin village to pretended to be industrialized, and still not finished Ryugyong Hotel. While the population live on subsidence level.


    A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.
     
    There is no original R&D. It's following Pakistani blueprints, and recreating things which were solved by others in the 1940s.

    Don't confuse original invention of such weapons, and the requirements to follow blueprints to recreate mechanisms developed 70 years before. The difficulty there is not anymore technological, but the reaction of the international community. It is primarily a diplomatic, rather than technological, difficulty involved.


    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess...
    supports a military of 1.2 million
     
    I don't think this is a good metric. Its nuclear program is the most primitive one that exists (e.g. weak countries like Israel and Pakistan have a much more advanced one, from decades earlier), and is a result of a country having "nothing to lose" diplomatically, rather than any indication of power.

    It has a subsistence economy, and has failed to industrialize, even after more than 70 years of trying. Abstract numbers about soldiers? - it does not seem useful information, although such numbers if actually true or based in some reality, could indicate the amount of unproductive free labour in the country.

    Replies: @AP, @JL

    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country’s economy

    I think it was 1990. I stayed at tourist hotels but also with family, and visited many relatives in their apartments, so I saw how people actually lived. By Western standards it was poverty. Large numbers of people crammed into small apartments. Few cars, and those that existed were of quality so low I had never experienced it. Not much, and poor quality, food (except bread, which admittedly was perhaps the best I have tasted). Quality of clothes as in the third world.

    had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already

    There was no war, plague, or other event to trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system’s inherent inferiority.

    And it is no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela. There is always an excuse.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983

    I don’t have time to hunt for the graph for 1983. Wiki has 1973. In 1973, the USSR had about half the GDP per capita of the UK and slightly more than one third that of the USA. It was worse than fascist Spain and Portugal. It was only about 20% higher than in Mexico:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#1%E2%80%932008_(Maddison)

    A disproportionate amount of the Soviet economy was tied up with the military so the discrepancy between the Soviets and the others in terms of civilian life was even much greater than that indicated by the GDP figures.

    But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries.

    We hosted an aunt and uncle from the USSR in the early 1980s (their kids weren’t allowed to join them because the Soviets wanted the parents to return). They were shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot. Not only by the number of them but by the quality; they were much better than Volgas, and no comparison to Zhigulis. Their initial thought was: this was propaganda, a show – the government parked those cars there to make it look like workers were so wealthy. They were amazed by the stores, supermarkets, houses, private swimming pools, etc.

    To give one example – a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.

    This is possible when everyone is equally poor. The physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.

    In Soviet times people “lived well” because they weren’t starving, they could afford some basic low quality things, and everyone was about equally poor so they did not have much cause to be envious.

    As for materially – my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind – perhaps slightly lower quality – than belongs to people in Western Europe

    So do the poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks. A 15 year old car owned by an American lumpen was still better than a new Soviet-era car that most Soviets could not even afford.

    Meanwhile when one of my relatives was a baby in Soviet Russia during Brezhnev times, she and her brother lived with her parents, grandmother and great-grandmother in a two room apartment. Kids, grandmother and great-grandmother all shared one room, parents had the other room. In America only the poorest lumpens have such crowded conditions. Her parents were both university professors.

    There is of course a vast cultural difference between poor lumpens in America and middle class Soviets. For this reason one would certainly prefer to live among the latter than among the former. But materially, in terms of living space, number and quality of possessions – not much difference.

    Soviet Union developed the world’s most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.

    Soviet military capacity nearly matched that of the West but everything else was far behind. Just as North Korea’s military capacity matches that of its Westernized neighbors but the country otherwise is far behind.

    And yet North Koreans accomplished this. [nukes and missiles]

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects.

    North Korea has developed the powerful military capacity to deter attacks on its nuclear project. This is part of why it is such a successful country, according to the Stalinist model..

    North Korea has developed the world’s most primitive nuclear

    A small country of 26 million under intense sanctions and scrutiny. An amazing feat.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    small apartments. Few cars
     
    On the other hand, public transport was one of the best in the world, and only surpassed by countries like Japan or France.

    Cars are a "mixed blessing", of course, and can't be considered simplistically as a metric for living standards, or economic advancement - e.g. cars kill more people than coronavirus ever will, just by their accidents, let alone their pollution; they are energy inefficient; they distort urban planning, etc.


    trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system’s inherent inferiority

     

    Central planning has inherent epistemic inferiorities, due to lacking the price-signalling mechanism, as was explained by Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek since the 1920s. (Although probably in the future it will become possible to reduce these inferiorities, as this was partly a technological problem - for example, internet cookies now, are better than surveys were then).

    However, economic collapse of the USSR was not spontaneous result of inefficiencies in central planning. It was a result of external shock from oil price collapse, as well as deliberate deconstruction of central planning mechanisms, and deliberate deconstruction of decades of protectionism and import substitution policies, etc.

    It was a "perfect storm" of external shock conditions, at the same time as deliberate dismantling. Here is the oil price collapse in 1983.

    https://i.imgur.com/GjoZsVY.png


    1983. Wiki has 1973
     
    According to Maddison, in 1973 we (Russia) are 90% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 59% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.

    In their "multiple benchmarks $" which they recommend for cross-country income comparison, then in 1973 Russia are 90,6% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 50,7% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.


    no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela

     

    In Venezuela, there is populism, with government allies controlling the main industries. It's a mixed economy. There isn't an attempt in building a centrally planned economy.

    shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot
     
    American car ownership is amazing today.

    However, the fact Russia has been able to "catch up" to some extent, or massively reduce the gap, in this metric in the last 35 years, at the same time that the economic distance has only increased between the two countries - shows it's not such a useful metric.

    And in terms of quality of life, public transport might be more important - and for example, Americans are shocked when they travel by train in Japan or Europe, and a significant proportion of them prefer it; while this option has failed in America.


    were amazed by the stores, supermarkets,
     
    Gorbachev was shocked in visiting Washington DC, about how they could plan the catering system, for so many different kinds of restaurants he saw there. There was some stubborn, chauvinistic, intentional idiocy in this, trying to pretend that non-centrally planned economies didn't exist for much of human history.

    physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.
     
    Piano teachers - with a curriculum - and pianos were provided by schools which had a music branch, if the child can pass music exams to qualify. So a couple of hours every day they could to the music school, and the rest of the day they are in the general school.

    This is dismantled and ruined now, so that music is mostly available for families where parent will be able to pay for a private teacher and the instruments at home.

    If you want to relate ironically it to 19th century history - Karl and Jenny Marx had to sacrifice a large part of their income, to be able to hire music teachers for their children in London. Until the USSR, formal musical education was something mostly limited to the bourgeoisie. While the USSR could provide such amenities to a wider proportion of the public, and at a higher quality level.


    poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks
     
    I know we are on bit of a weirdly race-obsessed forum, but why do you expect I will be surprised by the consumer possessions of African Americans.

    African Americans have better consumer possessions, than half of people in Europe. Their economic problems relate to unaffordable healthcare and education. In addition: extremely high rates of imprisonment and a recent, depressing decline in cultural contributions (when last century they had added more to music than many whole countries in Europe).

    Replies: @AP, @AP, @songbird

  231. @Kent Nationalist
    @Znzn


    gatling guns
     
    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one

    Replies: @Crawfurdmuir

    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one

    If you are thinking of Hiram Maxim, he was not a Jew. He was born in 1840 of old Puritan stock in Maine. Puritan New Englanders were fond of Old Testament names, perhaps giving rise to the misconception. Maxim was an atheist, but told this story about himself:

    At the end of the last century the American inventor Hiram Maxim presented himself to the police in Petersburg, Russia. He was there to sell his new Maxim machine gun to the Czar.

    “Your name is Hiram. You’re Jewish,” said the officer.
    “I am not. My people were puritans,” said Maxim.
    “Then what is your religion?”
    “I never had need of one,” Maxim snorted.
    “Well, no one can stay in Russia without a religion!”
    “Very well,” Maxim replied, “Put me down as a Protestant.”
    “And that,” he tells us, “is how I became a Protestant.”

    https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi694.htm

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Thanks for correcting me

  232. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren

    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s, and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw, compared to in America.

    Part of this will be because he came after 5-6 years of terrible economic collapse (I'm sure the atmosphere in America was not too happy, during the Great Depression). This is also during political crisis, and a time of peoples' spiritual and even public health collapse.

    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world's most wealthy countries - America, and probably not from South Bronx. If you live in a very wealthy part of a wealthy country (even for a couple weeks), then you can receive such culture shock when you leave the plane, and walking in a normal area of a normal country. I have this experience a lot, after living in a wealthy part of Northern Western Europe.

    And part of his observations accurate - that a large part of Soviet housing stock is low quality, compared to e.g. American, German or English housing. That this comparatively can reduce living standard. Also buildings can be dirty, and badly presented for tourists. Etc (just like in a lot of cities still today).

    Although you can visit countries like Israel now in 2020, and see even worse housing stocks. And yet if you investigate a bit more, you might find the population has quite high standards of living in other ways. Or even in countries with very good living standards like Spain today, most people live in small apartments, in ugly concrete box buildings.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @AP

    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw

    Ukraine was sovereign but not yet independent, I was there in 1990 when the USSR still existed. People were actually optimistic and happy, this wasn’t like 1995 or 1999.

    They were just all very poor and everything was scarce and of very shoddy quality.

    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world’s most wealthy countries – America, and probably not from South Bronx.

    I had driven past Chicago ghettos and rural trailer parks. Obviously these were more dangerous and more littered, because people were different. But materially there was little difference.

    I was in high school, so I was often focused on silly things – crappy clothes, many women didn’t shave their legs, lack of deodorant, third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole. Girls were very friendly, but unappealing if one wasn’t desperate. The public shared a water glass which was disgusting (but the fact that no one stole or destroyed the glass was remarkable; no doubt North Korea is similarly disciplined). I had never experienced a car as bad as the Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car. Ukraine seems to have been richer than Poland at the time, and poor Poles were selling stuff in Kiev (they were called spekulanty).

    Wonderful experience though, due to the warmth of family reunions. And a great lesson on the economic effects of socialism.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Was your trip in 1990 your first close-up experience of Ukraine? For some reason, I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mr. Hack

    , @Dmitry
    @AP


    – crappy clothes, many women didn’t shave their legs
     
    Shaving habits are not really indication of economic level, except that women's shaving is a fashion likely first popularized by capitalism in the 20th century, as being able to selli razors to women doubles your potential customer numbers. Popularizing women to buy to razors is an inevitable progression of that sector ("induced preferences"), just as popularizing men to use moisturizer or even perfume has been quite successful.

    lack of deodorant

     

    It doesn't necessarily indicate anything about economic level, considering that France is one the wealthiest countries in Europe, and French people are often proud to avoid deodorant and showers, despite that they invented the word for the latter, and own a lot of the companies which produce the former.

    A funny thing I heard from colleagues who come from Northern Spain (which is poorer than France), claim that "one of the main differences when you cross the border you notice "body odour of French people". I haven't noticed myself.

    -

    Since the 20th century, with most people having access to running water, showering habits are much more cultural than anything - as showering is a free or almost free activity.

    But even in 16th century Japan, people were obsessed with cleaning themselves, centuries before industrialization. And, in 21st century, ultra-wealthy France, it's still cool to avoid showers.


    third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole
     
    These are not only Russian, but even more common in France. Again, France is one of the most wealthy countries in Europe.

    Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car

     

    On the other hand, Kiev metro would be as effective as the one in London or Paris, and had more stations than the one in the capital of the USA at that time (How many stations were open in Washington DC metro in 1990?)

    Replies: @AP

  233. So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa. Furthermore, living in houses like America would be impossible in the USSR (even in much of Europe) due to the way cities are built.

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends. What specifically were we missing? All of this stuff worked as well.

    Regarding food, there was no shortages of food until the late 80’s when the Central Planning appartus had begun to be dismantled by Gorbachev’s administration.

    • Replies: @AP
    @NazBolFren


    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.
     
    Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren't even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa.
     
    1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband's mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    2. Odessa has only about a million people. In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don't compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    https://cdn.repliers.io/IMG-W4412323_1.jpg

    Very modest middle-class Chicago-area housing for families:

    https://images1.apartments.com/i2/Hxm26W0dRSOgid2fVXuPiXqwtq1o6hFb5ILukR9hgEE/117/1401-elmhurst-ln-schaumburg-il-primary-photo.jpg

    Housing project for impoverished black people in Chicago:

    https://media.npr.org/assets/news/2010/12/06/chicago-176e8cb0fb2f87289bbda3bfd2b8b4f492fa572d-s800-c85.jpg

    Which one resembles housing for middle class Soviet people?

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).
     
    Moscow's and Kiev's metros are beautiful and in large cities, but living in a cramped apartment in a small city and having to rely on a bus is just sad for a non-poor family.

    This is typical shitty Soviet housing in Prpyat, a city of only 50,000 before it was abandoned:

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/5f0ca428dccbb984f7590c23bd755c62/3caf03a6d3fd2a38-2c/s500x750/f6fd9c0b02f1d74d7494f3d20d26e333fdac93a5.jpg

    Nice housing for Sovoks, a Sovok engineer could live in such a place. It resembles an American housing project.

    Oak Ridge TN is a small city with nuclear research. Here is typical middle class housing there:

    https://ap.rdcpix.com/c42a36660c3fadaad7fc683bbbffc9fal-b2096500134xd-w400_h320_q60.jpg

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends
     
    Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books - American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don't want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes. And I'll bet American lumpens' TVs and stereos were nicer than yours. Here is an American ghetto in the 1980s:

    https://www.collectorsweekly.com/uploads/2013/12/do-the-right-thing-radio-raheem-puerto-rican-music-duel1.jpg

    Everyone one of those cars driven by American underclass lumpens in the 1980s was more luxurious, larger, had more features, and was safer than Soviet Zhigulis, Moskvichys, or Volgas:

    https://i.redd.it/4przsw8s85801.jpg

    And more lumpens owned such cars than did middle-class Sovoks. And this is a ghetto in New York, which has effective public transportation.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

  234. Sahl on Peckinpah

  235. @Dmitry
    @AP

    I don't know personally and haven't been in Korea - but my impression was prejudiced from hearing from people who visited South Korea, saying it was more low quality, boring imitation of Japan.

    What this man I talked to was studying for some months in Korea, and he visited Japan from Korea for a week -and was shocked by how much better Japan seems to him, and that Japanese seem a lot more cultured.

    And reputation of Korea is damaged a bit in our minds that - while the American occupied South half of Korea became a quite developed, civilized country, with powerful industries (if culturally boring imitation of Japan) - the Northern half of the country can still be a completely primitive third world place.

    If South Korea can develop almost to a Western European level; but the other half of the country is more like a bad stereotype of an African dictatorship. (It does show how false the theory is that race can determines a country's success is; there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful).

    Replies: @songbird, @AP, @Mikhail, @anonymous coward

    there is no racial difference between North and South Koreans, yet one country is total failure and other is quite successful

    Fake news. North Korea has half the population of South Korea, and yet has more newborns. North Korea will literally inherit the earth, and South Korea literally won’t.

    This is the only metric of ‘success’ that matters.

  236. JL says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP


    visited USSR in its later stage. It was squalid
     
    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country's economy had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already.

    I'm sure it's an interesting experience, to see such a collapse. But I've seen squalid in my own tourist experiences in America (and I'm sure more easily if I visited in the Great Depression, rather than the 21st century), but I won't confuse a squalid tourist experiences with the economic data.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983. That is not true. But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries. My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can't explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.


    The poorest Americans in housing projects lived better than “middle class” Soviets, materially.
     
    People often lived in ways which can be considered bourgeois in Western Europe. To give one example - a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.

    As for materially - my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind - perhaps slightly lower quality - than belongs to people in Western Europe of that epoch. I.e. they had material goods typical of industrialized countries of the 1980s.


    And yet North Koreans accomplished this.

     

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects. Similarly, as Egypt or Morocco could, if they didn't have adequate governments that prefer to avoid sanctions.

    This is called "Nuclear Nonproliferation". Countries didn't develop nuclear weapons not because of lack of technology or human capital (which is now blueprints from Pakistan for North Korea or Syria), but because they don't want to be sanctioned by the world for nuclear proliferation.


    And Soviets stole their plans also.

     

    It's a strange comparison. Soviet Union developed the world's most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, North Korea has developed the world's most primitive nuclear weapon program, and according to Pakistani technology. Moreover, they have built some unfinished Potemkin village to pretended to be industrialized, and still not finished Ryugyong Hotel. While the population live on subsidence level.


    A remarkable achievement for an isolated and sanctioned nation of 26 million.
     
    There is no original R&D. It's following Pakistani blueprints, and recreating things which were solved by others in the 1940s.

    Don't confuse original invention of such weapons, and the requirements to follow blueprints to recreate mechanisms developed 70 years before. The difficulty there is not anymore technological, but the reaction of the international community. It is primarily a diplomatic, rather than technological, difficulty involved.


    North Korea is probably the most powerful nation on Earth with a population of 26 million. It too has a shitty standard of living, but a powerful military that nobody wants to mess...
    supports a military of 1.2 million
     
    I don't think this is a good metric. Its nuclear program is the most primitive one that exists (e.g. weak countries like Israel and Pakistan have a much more advanced one, from decades earlier), and is a result of a country having "nothing to lose" diplomatically, rather than any indication of power.

    It has a subsistence economy, and has failed to industrialize, even after more than 70 years of trying. Abstract numbers about soldiers? - it does not seem useful information, although such numbers if actually true or based in some reality, could indicate the amount of unproductive free labour in the country.

    Replies: @AP, @JL

    My parents who say they lived well in their youth, which was in the USSR of that time, are not addicts of LSD and psilocybin, so we can’t explain their experience as an example of hallucinations.

    This reminds me of the joke about the child’s conversation with his grandfather:

    Child: “Grandpa, who was it better to live under, Putin or Stalin?”
    Grandfather (without hesitation): “That’s easy, son, Stalin.”
    Child: “Stalin?! But…Why?”
    Grandfather: “Because, son, I could still get it up under Stalin.”

    Btw, hallucinogens are not addictive.

    • LOL: AP
  237. Crushing the curve is more than possible without all patented CCP’ied China nonsense (ignore&deny everything early, silence the news&whistles, let it spread massively, then start welding everybody inside etc):

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXXMCIPUYAAhhrT?format=jpg&name=large

  238. @AP
    @Dmitry


    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw
     
    Ukraine was sovereign but not yet independent, I was there in 1990 when the USSR still existed. People were actually optimistic and happy, this wasn't like 1995 or 1999.

    They were just all very poor and everything was scarce and of very shoddy quality.


    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world’s most wealthy countries – America, and probably not from South Bronx.
     
    I had driven past Chicago ghettos and rural trailer parks. Obviously these were more dangerous and more littered, because people were different. But materially there was little difference.

    I was in high school, so I was often focused on silly things - crappy clothes, many women didn't shave their legs, lack of deodorant, third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole. Girls were very friendly, but unappealing if one wasn't desperate. The public shared a water glass which was disgusting (but the fact that no one stole or destroyed the glass was remarkable; no doubt North Korea is similarly disciplined). I had never experienced a car as bad as the Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car. Ukraine seems to have been richer than Poland at the time, and poor Poles were selling stuff in Kiev (they were called spekulanty).

    Wonderful experience though, due to the warmth of family reunions. And a great lesson on the economic effects of socialism.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    Was your trip in 1990 your first close-up experience of Ukraine? For some reason, I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack


    I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?
     
    'AP' is the grandson of a Nazi collaborator who fled to North America, so no.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University. Would it be presumptuous on my part to assume that you grew up in a Ukrainian speaking family?

    Replies: @AP

  239. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Was your trip in 1990 your first close-up experience of Ukraine? For some reason, I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mr. Hack

    I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?

    ‘AP’ is the grandson of a Nazi collaborator who fled to North America, so no.

    • Troll: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  240. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Was your trip in 1990 your first close-up experience of Ukraine? For some reason, I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mr. Hack

    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University. Would it be presumptuous on my part to assume that you grew up in a Ukrainian speaking family?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University.
     
    It was just a guest lecture at a medical institute. My wife sat next to me, translating if I couldn't find the words.

    When I no longer have kids in school I might try to do a one year Fullbright if I can get a Russian passport in only a year.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  241. @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack


    I thought that you were actually born there and left as a child?
     
    'AP' is the grandson of a Nazi collaborator who fled to North America, so no.

    Replies: @AP

    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP


    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

     

    Nice squid ink. Lemme guess, you take issue with the "Nazi collaborator" part, right? Poor granpa dindu nuffin, he just wanted a better life for his children!

    Replies: @AP

  242. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University. Would it be presumptuous on my part to assume that you grew up in a Ukrainian speaking family?

    Replies: @AP

    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University.

    It was just a guest lecture at a medical institute. My wife sat next to me, translating if I couldn’t find the words.

    When I no longer have kids in school I might try to do a one year Fullbright if I can get a Russian passport in only a year.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I usually use the "LOL" button in a sarcastic way, obviously not in this case. So, if you actually were born in the West and did indeed grow up in a Ukrainian speaking family, where did you learn Russian? These facts are interesting to me, because even though I'm older than you are, we do share the immigrant family experience. I picked up Russian in school and hanging out a lot with "newbies" in the 1990's. I'd never consider speaking to an audience in Russian at a medical institute. I'm more in for the "rybalka" crowd surrounding the Bar-b-que. :-)

    Replies: @AP

  243. AP says:
    @NazBolFren
    @AP

    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa. Furthermore, living in houses like America would be impossible in the USSR (even in much of Europe) due to the way cities are built.

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).

    People had the luxuries they needed - we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends. What specifically were we missing? All of this stuff worked as well.

    Regarding food, there was no shortages of food until the late 80's when the Central Planning appartus had begun to be dismantled by Gorbachev's administration.

    Replies: @AP

    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.

    Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren’t even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa.

    1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband’s mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    2. Odessa has only about a million people. In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don’t compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    Very modest middle-class Chicago-area housing for families:

    Housing project for impoverished black people in Chicago:

    Which one resembles housing for middle class Soviet people?

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).

    Moscow’s and Kiev’s metros are beautiful and in large cities, but living in a cramped apartment in a small city and having to rely on a bus is just sad for a non-poor family.

    This is typical shitty Soviet housing in Prpyat, a city of only 50,000 before it was abandoned:

    Nice housing for Sovoks, a Sovok engineer could live in such a place. It resembles an American housing project.

    Oak Ridge TN is a small city with nuclear research. Here is typical middle class housing there:

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends

    Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books – American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don’t want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes. And I’ll bet American lumpens’ TVs and stereos were nicer than yours. Here is an American ghetto in the 1980s:

    Everyone one of those cars driven by American underclass lumpens in the 1980s was more luxurious, larger, had more features, and was safer than Soviet Zhigulis, Moskvichys, or Volgas:

    And more lumpens owned such cars than did middle-class Sovoks. And this is a ghetto in New York, which has effective public transportation.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @AP

    >Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren’t even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Again, we didn't experience any scarcity and we lived throughout the European portion of the USSR all the way from the Urals to Odessa. We had everything we wanted and didn't need to engage in corruption to do so.

    >Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Again, according to whom was everything "inferior quality"? To you?

    The food was great there. For example, I remember acquiring American tushenka (don't know the word for it) once. It was in beautiful packaging and I was greatly excited to eat it thinking it would be heavenly. Once I opened it and ate it I almost spit it out because of how much salt they put in. This had been my experience with almost every American food product I had acquired at the time - looked beautiful in packaging but was not good.

    Personally, I enjoy greasy sausages and didn't find them particularly greasy either.

    This whole 'food quality' argument you are making is entirely subjective and cannot be taken seriously as a result of this.


    >1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband’s mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    Trading up was common - there were constant trades going on - we moved around from Urals to Rostov to Mariuopol and to Odessa - all through trades - because my parents did not like staying in one place too long.

    Also, what you wrote is your experience of n=1. My dad's supervisor was a professor who had his own driver, lived in a nice stalinist flat and had his own dacha outside the city.

    Finally, USSR is further incomparable to the US - scientists and doctors are very well paid there. In Europe science has never been well paid and does not continue to be so, where even doctors earn about $15/hour in the UK (compare that to doctor salaries in the US).


    >In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don’t compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    1. Most of Europe lived in flats then and continues to do so now. This is not just something the 'filthy Sovoks" did.

    Outside the anglo world (UK, America, Canada, Australia) most people in Europe live in flats. In Germany (The richest European country) more than half the population lives in flats and doesn't have cars.

    So your argument about Soviet families not having 2131221 cars and detached houses is hardly an idictment.

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-living-in-Europe-different-from-living-in-North-America-What-are-some-little-things-that-one-experiences-on-a-day-to-day-basis

    You can't compare the USSR to North America because while Europe is small, most people in post-USSR live in only a few regions and in densely populated areas. So much so, that most errands could be achieved by walking or (like going to get groceries, going to the theatre, etc) or public transit. Getting anywhere without a car in north america is impossible or very difficult considering the amounts of sprawl that is present.

    The Soviets achieved the greatest public rehousing project in human history, giving everyone in the country free housing with community amenities built in within a short distance especially when millions had no homes after the war. This article by Guardian surprisingly well describes this situation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/12/moscows-suburbs-may-look-monolithic-but-the-stories-they-tell-are-not

    What's funny is that you hate the 'sovoks' so much but they guarenteed a decent/dignified standard of living for most people - whereas now in Capitalist Russia outside of a few major cities people continue to live in the old Soviet houses (no upgrades are going on) and in places like Moscow - the new housing complexes are built with Soviet methods and are so expensive as to be unaffordable for most people. The article addresses this.

    In fact, here is what moscow looked in the 1950's. It was very nice and corresponds to the experiences of my family members. People do not look like they are deprived of anything there (which they weren't).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imy7vB_n1GA&t=658s

    >Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books – American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don’t want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes.

    Stereos, TVs, Radios, movies and books were something that not only the proles had but the middle class and the rich had too. Based on this measure shall we say American whites are no different from black lumpens that had these things? I mean if we're measuring things based on whether they had these things, then there is really no difference between american lumpens and basically everyone else in the world.

    > New York,

    If you think New York has effective public transportation then I am sorry, but you clearly have no experience with effective public transportation. I suggest a trip to Japan or China to rectify this situation.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My verdict from speaking to you:
    1. You are a sophist - intentionally misrepresenting things (for example, comparing the USSR housing situation to north america from which it was much different rather than Europe). Plato warns about your ilk in Protagoras, when he says that sophists make arguments that sound convincing on the surface, but digging deeper they reveal numerous attempts at misdirection.

    2. You are a product of escaped Ukrainian nazi supporters, I have met many of your ilk in Toronto (which is a haven for the families of ex-UPA fighters, Nazi collaborators, etc) - your arguments are mirror images of theirs.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @AP

    You remind me of housing conditions in London now. You can have an upper-middle class, professional job and yet still only be able to (for half your salary) afford a room in a flat with four other people and no living room.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Comparison of housing stock between America and the USSR is not very revealing, as they were solving different problems, for countries with very different situations.

    After the Stalin died, the Soviet Union was able massively increase housing for tens of millions of people, in a very short time, who had been living in terrible housing conditions before. This was solved in a very successful way using prefabricated building technology.

    In post-war America, they only build mass government housing, for poor people. There was a large existing housing stock, and the 20th century trend of new construction was determined by the automobile. This allows middle class to evacuate the cities, and buy privately constructed suburbs designed by people like William Levitt to exploit the car.

    -

    Depending on their history, there are advanced developed countries nowadays, that have inherited residential construction that are not much more photogenic than post-Khrushchev housing stock.

    In Spain, for example, most people live in such apartments. Spain is considered one of the world's most advanced countries, with one of the highest UN HDI rating.

    Yet even Varlamov has to admit Spaniards live in basically Russian conditions. By the way, the majority of Spanish people live in buildings like this - although apartments inside Spanish buildings are larger than Soviet ones (as well as larger than apartments in most modern Russian anthills).

    https://varlamov.me/2019/barsput4/15.jpg


    In Israel - which is a country with actually very high living standards - their 1950s housing stock is worse than the Soviet one, and the buildings are constructed with aggregate made from seashells. Israel is also an active earthquake-zone, so if you live in these buildings, you are gambling with a 1995 Neftegorsk scenario.

    https://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/puerrtto/Israel/DSC_0061%20Medium_zpsqn3uvcom.jpg

    http://sfilev1.f-static.com/image/users/329884/ftp/my_files/FreeImages/38.jpg

    http://blog.tapuz.co.il/kmusa/images/2784370_392.jpg

  244. @Crawfurdmuir
    @Kent Nationalist


    To be fair, a Jew invented the first properly automatic one
     
    If you are thinking of Hiram Maxim, he was not a Jew. He was born in 1840 of old Puritan stock in Maine. Puritan New Englanders were fond of Old Testament names, perhaps giving rise to the misconception. Maxim was an atheist, but told this story about himself:

    At the end of the last century the American inventor Hiram Maxim presented himself to the police in Petersburg, Russia. He was there to sell his new Maxim machine gun to the Czar.

    "Your name is Hiram. You're Jewish," said the officer.
    "I am not. My people were puritans," said Maxim.
    "Then what is your religion?"
    "I never had need of one," Maxim snorted.
    "Well, no one can stay in Russia without a religion!"
    "Very well," Maxim replied, "Put me down as a Protestant."
    "And that," he tells us, "is how I became a Protestant."
     
    https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi694.htm

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Thanks for correcting me

  245. @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

    Nice squid ink. Lemme guess, you take issue with the “Nazi collaborator” part, right? Poor granpa dindu nuffin, he just wanted a better life for his children!

    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward

    You are wrong as usual but here you manage to be wrong in multiple ways. None of my grandparents worked for the Germans in Ukraine. Moreover, by your wrong standard everyone not imprisoned was a collaborator. So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital - collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary - collaborator. Farmer obligated to give some food he produced to the Germans - collaborator. Guy who owned a business and paid taxes - collaborator.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators. The only collaborators were those who cooperated with the Soviets.

    Definition of collaborate:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collaborate

    “ to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force”

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mikhail

  246. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    If you were born somewhere in the West, I applaud you for learning Russian to such a high level that you were subsequently able to give scientific lectures at a Moscow University.
     
    It was just a guest lecture at a medical institute. My wife sat next to me, translating if I couldn't find the words.

    When I no longer have kids in school I might try to do a one year Fullbright if I can get a Russian passport in only a year.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I usually use the “LOL” button in a sarcastic way, obviously not in this case. So, if you actually were born in the West and did indeed grow up in a Ukrainian speaking family, where did you learn Russian? These facts are interesting to me, because even though I’m older than you are, we do share the immigrant family experience. I picked up Russian in school and hanging out a lot with “newbies” in the 1990’s. I’d never consider speaking to an audience in Russian at a medical institute. I’m more in for the “rybalka” crowd surrounding the Bar-b-que. 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Russian wife, university friends, living in Moscow.

  247. AP says:
    @anonymous coward
    @AP


    Continuing the pattern of being wrong in almost everything you write.

     

    Nice squid ink. Lemme guess, you take issue with the "Nazi collaborator" part, right? Poor granpa dindu nuffin, he just wanted a better life for his children!

    Replies: @AP

    You are wrong as usual but here you manage to be wrong in multiple ways. None of my grandparents worked for the Germans in Ukraine. Moreover, by your wrong standard everyone not imprisoned was a collaborator. So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital – collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary – collaborator. Farmer obligated to give some food he produced to the Germans – collaborator. Guy who owned a business and paid taxes – collaborator.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators. The only collaborators were those who cooperated with the Soviets.

    Definition of collaborate:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collaborate

    “ to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one’s country and especially an occupying force”

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP


    So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital – collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary – collaborator.
     
    Not necessarily collaborators, yes. But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were.

    And yes, there is a fine line. Working as a medic for the SS definitely counts as collaboration. So does propagandizing little kids.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.
     
    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration. Who owned your little chunk of clay and when is completely irrelevant to the question.

    Very weak sauce, my man. There genuine 'dindu nuffin' cases that you could have cited, q

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    , @Mikhail
    @AP


    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.
     
    The Soviets recognized it as part of the USSR.

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.
     
    The "Galicians" en masse had issues with being a part of Poland, with many becoming displeased with the Nazi occupation.

    You really exhibit a profound learning disability by not recognizing that colloborate means to work with.

    It's accurate to say that many Galicians didn't feel like they betrayed the USSR on the basis that:

    - the Soviets first had that territory for a brief period after M-R and before the Nazi attack on the USSR

    - many Galicians weren't pleased with what they initially encountered under Soviet rule.
  248. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I usually use the "LOL" button in a sarcastic way, obviously not in this case. So, if you actually were born in the West and did indeed grow up in a Ukrainian speaking family, where did you learn Russian? These facts are interesting to me, because even though I'm older than you are, we do share the immigrant family experience. I picked up Russian in school and hanging out a lot with "newbies" in the 1990's. I'd never consider speaking to an audience in Russian at a medical institute. I'm more in for the "rybalka" crowd surrounding the Bar-b-que. :-)

    Replies: @AP

    Russian wife, university friends, living in Moscow.

  249. @AP
    @NazBolFren


    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.
     
    Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren't even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa.
     
    1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband's mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    2. Odessa has only about a million people. In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don't compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    https://cdn.repliers.io/IMG-W4412323_1.jpg

    Very modest middle-class Chicago-area housing for families:

    https://images1.apartments.com/i2/Hxm26W0dRSOgid2fVXuPiXqwtq1o6hFb5ILukR9hgEE/117/1401-elmhurst-ln-schaumburg-il-primary-photo.jpg

    Housing project for impoverished black people in Chicago:

    https://media.npr.org/assets/news/2010/12/06/chicago-176e8cb0fb2f87289bbda3bfd2b8b4f492fa572d-s800-c85.jpg

    Which one resembles housing for middle class Soviet people?

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).
     
    Moscow's and Kiev's metros are beautiful and in large cities, but living in a cramped apartment in a small city and having to rely on a bus is just sad for a non-poor family.

    This is typical shitty Soviet housing in Prpyat, a city of only 50,000 before it was abandoned:

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/5f0ca428dccbb984f7590c23bd755c62/3caf03a6d3fd2a38-2c/s500x750/f6fd9c0b02f1d74d7494f3d20d26e333fdac93a5.jpg

    Nice housing for Sovoks, a Sovok engineer could live in such a place. It resembles an American housing project.

    Oak Ridge TN is a small city with nuclear research. Here is typical middle class housing there:

    https://ap.rdcpix.com/c42a36660c3fadaad7fc683bbbffc9fal-b2096500134xd-w400_h320_q60.jpg

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends
     
    Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books - American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don't want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes. And I'll bet American lumpens' TVs and stereos were nicer than yours. Here is an American ghetto in the 1980s:

    https://www.collectorsweekly.com/uploads/2013/12/do-the-right-thing-radio-raheem-puerto-rican-music-duel1.jpg

    Everyone one of those cars driven by American underclass lumpens in the 1980s was more luxurious, larger, had more features, and was safer than Soviet Zhigulis, Moskvichys, or Volgas:

    https://i.redd.it/4przsw8s85801.jpg

    And more lumpens owned such cars than did middle-class Sovoks. And this is a ghetto in New York, which has effective public transportation.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    >Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren’t even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Again, we didn’t experience any scarcity and we lived throughout the European portion of the USSR all the way from the Urals to Odessa. We had everything we wanted and didn’t need to engage in corruption to do so.

    >Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Again, according to whom was everything “inferior quality”? To you?

    The food was great there. For example, I remember acquiring American tushenka (don’t know the word for it) once. It was in beautiful packaging and I was greatly excited to eat it thinking it would be heavenly. Once I opened it and ate it I almost spit it out because of how much salt they put in. This had been my experience with almost every American food product I had acquired at the time – looked beautiful in packaging but was not good.

    Personally, I enjoy greasy sausages and didn’t find them particularly greasy either.

    This whole ‘food quality’ argument you are making is entirely subjective and cannot be taken seriously as a result of this.

    >1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband’s mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    Trading up was common – there were constant trades going on – we moved around from Urals to Rostov to Mariuopol and to Odessa – all through trades – because my parents did not like staying in one place too long.

    Also, what you wrote is your experience of n=1. My dad’s supervisor was a professor who had his own driver, lived in a nice stalinist flat and had his own dacha outside the city.

    Finally, USSR is further incomparable to the US – scientists and doctors are very well paid there. In Europe science has never been well paid and does not continue to be so, where even doctors earn about $15/hour in the UK (compare that to doctor salaries in the US).

    >In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don’t compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    1. Most of Europe lived in flats then and continues to do so now. This is not just something the ‘filthy Sovoks” did.

    Outside the anglo world (UK, America, Canada, Australia) most people in Europe live in flats. In Germany (The richest European country) more than half the population lives in flats and doesn’t have cars.

    So your argument about Soviet families not having 2131221 cars and detached houses is hardly an idictment.

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-living-in-Europe-different-from-living-in-North-America-What-are-some-little-things-that-one-experiences-on-a-day-to-day-basis

    You can’t compare the USSR to North America because while Europe is small, most people in post-USSR live in only a few regions and in densely populated areas. So much so, that most errands could be achieved by walking or (like going to get groceries, going to the theatre, etc) or public transit. Getting anywhere without a car in north america is impossible or very difficult considering the amounts of sprawl that is present.

    The Soviets achieved the greatest public rehousing project in human history, giving everyone in the country free housing with community amenities built in within a short distance especially when millions had no homes after the war. This article by Guardian surprisingly well describes this situation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/12/moscows-suburbs-may-look-monolithic-but-the-stories-they-tell-are-not

    What’s funny is that you hate the ‘sovoks’ so much but they guarenteed a decent/dignified standard of living for most people – whereas now in Capitalist Russia outside of a few major cities people continue to live in the old Soviet houses (no upgrades are going on) and in places like Moscow – the new housing complexes are built with Soviet methods and are so expensive as to be unaffordable for most people. The article addresses this.

    In fact, here is what moscow looked in the 1950’s. It was very nice and corresponds to the experiences of my family members. People do not look like they are deprived of anything there (which they weren’t).

    >Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books – American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don’t want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes.

    Stereos, TVs, Radios, movies and books were something that not only the proles had but the middle class and the rich had too. Based on this measure shall we say American whites are no different from black lumpens that had these things? I mean if we’re measuring things based on whether they had these things, then there is really no difference between american lumpens and basically everyone else in the world.

    > New York,

    If you think New York has effective public transportation then I am sorry, but you clearly have no experience with effective public transportation. I suggest a trip to Japan or China to rectify this situation.

    —————————————————————————————————————–
    My verdict from speaking to you:
    1. You are a sophist – intentionally misrepresenting things (for example, comparing the USSR housing situation to north america from which it was much different rather than Europe). Plato warns about your ilk in Protagoras, when he says that sophists make arguments that sound convincing on the surface, but digging deeper they reveal numerous attempts at misdirection.

    2. You are a product of escaped Ukrainian nazi supporters, I have met many of your ilk in Toronto (which is a haven for the families of ex-UPA fighters, Nazi collaborators, etc) – your arguments are mirror images of theirs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    Yeah, those were the days all right! Do you think that we can turn the clock back and recreate this worker's paradise? How many millions of its own citizens had to be liquidated in order to create this heaven on earth? It doesn't really matter, as you can see from this accurate depiction of life there in the 1970's, it would certainly be worth it today!

    https://youtu.be/dDZxQp7gphk

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    , @AP
    @NazBolFren

    Will address most of this later. It’s funny that you forget Sovok food shortages though. This is about meat shortages in 1976:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/10/archives/soviet-diet-still-starchy-as-meat-drive-lags.html

    In the decade since Leonid I. Brezhnev took power in 1965 meat consumption per capita has risen from 90 pounds to nearly 128 pounds last year, according to Soviet statistics. This is still about half the American consumption per capita.

    So Americans ate steak, Sovoks ate kasha or potatoes.

    My wife recalls grandmother being sent to the store early in the morning to get food before the stores got empty.

    More:


    Supplies Are Irregular

    In Moscow and, evidently, in other Soviet cities, meatless Thursdays have been mandated for restaurants, though not those serving foreign tourists. In Moscow alone, this measure has released 300 tons of meat every Thursday for local markets.

    But supplies are irregular enough to produce inevitable grumbling. “There are no chickens anywhere, and when there are, the line is too long. and I've forgotten what pork looks like,” said a shopper in Moscow.

    Some Muscovites also complain that their markets are being raided by shoppers who come in by train or bus from other cities. Moscow and Leningrad are believed to he getting first priority in distribution of food and consumer goods, because they are “hero” cities that are also visited by foreigners. By contrast, Russian from the Chelyabinsk region of the Urals reported that his home town had only potatoes, bread and vodka in the stores last winter.

    The distribution pattern has given rise to a joke now circulating among Russians, in which a collective farm chairman promises his workers that under Communism each farmer will have a helicopter some day.

    “Why do I need a helicopter?” a farmer asks.

    “When there is no sausage in the stores, you can fly in your helicopter to Moscow and buy it there,” the farm chairman explains.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  250. @NazBolFren
    @AP

    >Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren’t even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Again, we didn't experience any scarcity and we lived throughout the European portion of the USSR all the way from the Urals to Odessa. We had everything we wanted and didn't need to engage in corruption to do so.

    >Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Again, according to whom was everything "inferior quality"? To you?

    The food was great there. For example, I remember acquiring American tushenka (don't know the word for it) once. It was in beautiful packaging and I was greatly excited to eat it thinking it would be heavenly. Once I opened it and ate it I almost spit it out because of how much salt they put in. This had been my experience with almost every American food product I had acquired at the time - looked beautiful in packaging but was not good.

    Personally, I enjoy greasy sausages and didn't find them particularly greasy either.

    This whole 'food quality' argument you are making is entirely subjective and cannot be taken seriously as a result of this.


    >1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband’s mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    Trading up was common - there were constant trades going on - we moved around from Urals to Rostov to Mariuopol and to Odessa - all through trades - because my parents did not like staying in one place too long.

    Also, what you wrote is your experience of n=1. My dad's supervisor was a professor who had his own driver, lived in a nice stalinist flat and had his own dacha outside the city.

    Finally, USSR is further incomparable to the US - scientists and doctors are very well paid there. In Europe science has never been well paid and does not continue to be so, where even doctors earn about $15/hour in the UK (compare that to doctor salaries in the US).


    >In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don’t compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    1. Most of Europe lived in flats then and continues to do so now. This is not just something the 'filthy Sovoks" did.

    Outside the anglo world (UK, America, Canada, Australia) most people in Europe live in flats. In Germany (The richest European country) more than half the population lives in flats and doesn't have cars.

    So your argument about Soviet families not having 2131221 cars and detached houses is hardly an idictment.

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-living-in-Europe-different-from-living-in-North-America-What-are-some-little-things-that-one-experiences-on-a-day-to-day-basis

    You can't compare the USSR to North America because while Europe is small, most people in post-USSR live in only a few regions and in densely populated areas. So much so, that most errands could be achieved by walking or (like going to get groceries, going to the theatre, etc) or public transit. Getting anywhere without a car in north america is impossible or very difficult considering the amounts of sprawl that is present.

    The Soviets achieved the greatest public rehousing project in human history, giving everyone in the country free housing with community amenities built in within a short distance especially when millions had no homes after the war. This article by Guardian surprisingly well describes this situation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/12/moscows-suburbs-may-look-monolithic-but-the-stories-they-tell-are-not

    What's funny is that you hate the 'sovoks' so much but they guarenteed a decent/dignified standard of living for most people - whereas now in Capitalist Russia outside of a few major cities people continue to live in the old Soviet houses (no upgrades are going on) and in places like Moscow - the new housing complexes are built with Soviet methods and are so expensive as to be unaffordable for most people. The article addresses this.

    In fact, here is what moscow looked in the 1950's. It was very nice and corresponds to the experiences of my family members. People do not look like they are deprived of anything there (which they weren't).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imy7vB_n1GA&t=658s

    >Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books – American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don’t want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes.

    Stereos, TVs, Radios, movies and books were something that not only the proles had but the middle class and the rich had too. Based on this measure shall we say American whites are no different from black lumpens that had these things? I mean if we're measuring things based on whether they had these things, then there is really no difference between american lumpens and basically everyone else in the world.

    > New York,

    If you think New York has effective public transportation then I am sorry, but you clearly have no experience with effective public transportation. I suggest a trip to Japan or China to rectify this situation.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My verdict from speaking to you:
    1. You are a sophist - intentionally misrepresenting things (for example, comparing the USSR housing situation to north america from which it was much different rather than Europe). Plato warns about your ilk in Protagoras, when he says that sophists make arguments that sound convincing on the surface, but digging deeper they reveal numerous attempts at misdirection.

    2. You are a product of escaped Ukrainian nazi supporters, I have met many of your ilk in Toronto (which is a haven for the families of ex-UPA fighters, Nazi collaborators, etc) - your arguments are mirror images of theirs.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Yeah, those were the days all right! Do you think that we can turn the clock back and recreate this worker’s paradise? How many millions of its own citizens had to be liquidated in order to create this heaven on earth? It doesn’t really matter, as you can see from this accurate depiction of life there in the 1970’s, it would certainly be worth it today!

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Millions of citizens is a meme firstly.

    Secondly, its easy to sit back in your chair and criticize. Lets see you do better, without 20/20 hindsight.

    Finally, shall we analyze how many millions of people have died due to starvation (by not being able to afford basic necessities like food), died in wars over resources/money, that were enslaved (and continue to be enslaved in third world countries) in order to produce cheap widgets for the owners of the means of production throughout history all over the world? And continue to do so in the modern world?

    Or shall we analyze the 20 million or so population that was lost in Russia alone due to immigration, deaths from crime, deaths from disesase/drugs/trauma/suicide/etc, due to lack of births (fall in birth rate), starvation during the gangster privitization of the 90s? What about the 20% of the population currently living in poverty? Or the millions that cannot afford living expenses due to lack of work in modern russia? The gangster capitalism of the 90's was worse than world war 2 in terms of the effects on the country.

    Sure the USSR had its problems, but at least MOST people had the basic necessities of living.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  251. @AP
    @anonymous coward

    You are wrong as usual but here you manage to be wrong in multiple ways. None of my grandparents worked for the Germans in Ukraine. Moreover, by your wrong standard everyone not imprisoned was a collaborator. So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital - collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary - collaborator. Farmer obligated to give some food he produced to the Germans - collaborator. Guy who owned a business and paid taxes - collaborator.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators. The only collaborators were those who cooperated with the Soviets.

    Definition of collaborate:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collaborate

    “ to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force”

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mikhail

    So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital – collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary – collaborator.

    Not necessarily collaborators, yes. But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were.

    And yes, there is a fine line. Working as a medic for the SS definitely counts as collaboration. So does propagandizing little kids.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.

    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration. Who owned your little chunk of clay and when is completely irrelevant to the question.

    Very weak sauce, my man. There genuine ‘dindu nuffin’ cases that you could have cited, q

    • Agree: NazBolFren
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @anonymous coward

    , like the very many people who were taken as slave labor by the Nazis and decided to stay in Germany after the war.

    , @AP
    @anonymous coward


    But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were
     
    .

    Wrong again and as usual. Germans weren’t obligated to take anyone.

    Most people just made their way west on trains or on foot on their own, as refugees do everywhere. It wasn’t rocket science to know that life would be much better in the West and this was the last opportunity to get there. Sovok nightmare of 1939-1941 was enough of a taste. Germans had more important things to do than hunt anti- Communist refugees.

    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration.
     
    Uh no, only in the case of people working against their own country on behalf of the Germans. Not true of Hungarians, Balts, Galicians.
  252. @anonymous coward
    @AP


    So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital – collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary – collaborator.
     
    Not necessarily collaborators, yes. But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were.

    And yes, there is a fine line. Working as a medic for the SS definitely counts as collaboration. So does propagandizing little kids.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.
     
    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration. Who owned your little chunk of clay and when is completely irrelevant to the question.

    Very weak sauce, my man. There genuine 'dindu nuffin' cases that you could have cited, q

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    , like the very many people who were taken as slave labor by the Nazis and decided to stay in Germany after the war.

    • Agree: NazBolFren
  253. AP says:
    @NazBolFren
    @AP

    >Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren’t even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Again, we didn't experience any scarcity and we lived throughout the European portion of the USSR all the way from the Urals to Odessa. We had everything we wanted and didn't need to engage in corruption to do so.

    >Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Again, according to whom was everything "inferior quality"? To you?

    The food was great there. For example, I remember acquiring American tushenka (don't know the word for it) once. It was in beautiful packaging and I was greatly excited to eat it thinking it would be heavenly. Once I opened it and ate it I almost spit it out because of how much salt they put in. This had been my experience with almost every American food product I had acquired at the time - looked beautiful in packaging but was not good.

    Personally, I enjoy greasy sausages and didn't find them particularly greasy either.

    This whole 'food quality' argument you are making is entirely subjective and cannot be taken seriously as a result of this.


    >1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband’s mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    Trading up was common - there were constant trades going on - we moved around from Urals to Rostov to Mariuopol and to Odessa - all through trades - because my parents did not like staying in one place too long.

    Also, what you wrote is your experience of n=1. My dad's supervisor was a professor who had his own driver, lived in a nice stalinist flat and had his own dacha outside the city.

    Finally, USSR is further incomparable to the US - scientists and doctors are very well paid there. In Europe science has never been well paid and does not continue to be so, where even doctors earn about $15/hour in the UK (compare that to doctor salaries in the US).


    >In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don’t compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    1. Most of Europe lived in flats then and continues to do so now. This is not just something the 'filthy Sovoks" did.

    Outside the anglo world (UK, America, Canada, Australia) most people in Europe live in flats. In Germany (The richest European country) more than half the population lives in flats and doesn't have cars.

    So your argument about Soviet families not having 2131221 cars and detached houses is hardly an idictment.

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-living-in-Europe-different-from-living-in-North-America-What-are-some-little-things-that-one-experiences-on-a-day-to-day-basis

    You can't compare the USSR to North America because while Europe is small, most people in post-USSR live in only a few regions and in densely populated areas. So much so, that most errands could be achieved by walking or (like going to get groceries, going to the theatre, etc) or public transit. Getting anywhere without a car in north america is impossible or very difficult considering the amounts of sprawl that is present.

    The Soviets achieved the greatest public rehousing project in human history, giving everyone in the country free housing with community amenities built in within a short distance especially when millions had no homes after the war. This article by Guardian surprisingly well describes this situation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/12/moscows-suburbs-may-look-monolithic-but-the-stories-they-tell-are-not

    What's funny is that you hate the 'sovoks' so much but they guarenteed a decent/dignified standard of living for most people - whereas now in Capitalist Russia outside of a few major cities people continue to live in the old Soviet houses (no upgrades are going on) and in places like Moscow - the new housing complexes are built with Soviet methods and are so expensive as to be unaffordable for most people. The article addresses this.

    In fact, here is what moscow looked in the 1950's. It was very nice and corresponds to the experiences of my family members. People do not look like they are deprived of anything there (which they weren't).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imy7vB_n1GA&t=658s

    >Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books – American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don’t want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes.

    Stereos, TVs, Radios, movies and books were something that not only the proles had but the middle class and the rich had too. Based on this measure shall we say American whites are no different from black lumpens that had these things? I mean if we're measuring things based on whether they had these things, then there is really no difference between american lumpens and basically everyone else in the world.

    > New York,

    If you think New York has effective public transportation then I am sorry, but you clearly have no experience with effective public transportation. I suggest a trip to Japan or China to rectify this situation.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My verdict from speaking to you:
    1. You are a sophist - intentionally misrepresenting things (for example, comparing the USSR housing situation to north america from which it was much different rather than Europe). Plato warns about your ilk in Protagoras, when he says that sophists make arguments that sound convincing on the surface, but digging deeper they reveal numerous attempts at misdirection.

    2. You are a product of escaped Ukrainian nazi supporters, I have met many of your ilk in Toronto (which is a haven for the families of ex-UPA fighters, Nazi collaborators, etc) - your arguments are mirror images of theirs.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Will address most of this later. It’s funny that you forget Sovok food shortages though. This is about meat shortages in 1976:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/10/archives/soviet-diet-still-starchy-as-meat-drive-lags.html

    In the decade since Leonid I. Brezhnev took power in 1965 meat consumption per capita has risen from 90 pounds to nearly 128 pounds last year, according to Soviet statistics. This is still about half the American consumption per capita.

    So Americans ate steak, Sovoks ate kasha or potatoes.

    My wife recalls grandmother being sent to the store early in the morning to get food before the stores got empty.

    More:

    [MORE]

    Supplies Are Irregular

    In Moscow and, evidently, in other Soviet cities, meatless Thursdays have been mandated for restaurants, though not those serving foreign tourists. In Moscow alone, this measure has released 300 tons of meat every Thursday for local markets.

    But supplies are irregular enough to produce inevitable grumbling. “There are no chickens anywhere, and when there are, the line is too long. and I’ve forgotten what pork looks like,” said a shopper in Moscow.

    Some Muscovites also complain that their markets are being raided by shoppers who come in by train or bus from other cities. Moscow and Leningrad are believed to he getting first priority in distribution of food and consumer goods, because they are “hero” cities that are also visited by foreigners. By contrast, Russian from the Chelyabinsk region of the Urals reported that his home town had only potatoes, bread and vodka in the stores last winter.

    The distribution pattern has given rise to a joke now circulating among Russians, in which a collective farm chairman promises his workers that under Communism each farmer will have a helicopter some day.

    “Why do I need a helicopter?” a farmer asks.

    “When there is no sausage in the stores, you can fly in your helicopter to Moscow and buy it there,” the farm chairman explains.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @AP

    Your wives experiences are not my experiences and not the experiences of family members and friends.

    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30 (which coincidentally is far more statistically significant)

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons - the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war, had a great deal of help from great britain durind industrilaization, etc vs the USSR that had 30 years to industralize and had no help from anyone else and was isolated in terms of trade whereas the USA had the entire world to leech from.

    Replies: @AP

  254. @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    Yeah, those were the days all right! Do you think that we can turn the clock back and recreate this worker's paradise? How many millions of its own citizens had to be liquidated in order to create this heaven on earth? It doesn't really matter, as you can see from this accurate depiction of life there in the 1970's, it would certainly be worth it today!

    https://youtu.be/dDZxQp7gphk

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    Millions of citizens is a meme firstly.

    Secondly, its easy to sit back in your chair and criticize. Lets see you do better, without 20/20 hindsight.

    Finally, shall we analyze how many millions of people have died due to starvation (by not being able to afford basic necessities like food), died in wars over resources/money, that were enslaved (and continue to be enslaved in third world countries) in order to produce cheap widgets for the owners of the means of production throughout history all over the world? And continue to do so in the modern world?

    Or shall we analyze the 20 million or so population that was lost in Russia alone due to immigration, deaths from crime, deaths from disesase/drugs/trauma/suicide/etc, due to lack of births (fall in birth rate), starvation during the gangster privitization of the 90s? What about the 20% of the population currently living in poverty? Or the millions that cannot afford living expenses due to lack of work in modern russia? The gangster capitalism of the 90’s was worse than world war 2 in terms of the effects on the country.

    Sure the USSR had its problems, but at least MOST people had the basic necessities of living.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    Incessant food shortages across the iron curtain block played a huge role in bringing the whole charade down. It's obvious that your family was part of the nomenklatura that was taken care of, therefore your lousy whining to this day elicits no tears from anybody except from you. Remember the little private stores set-up only for your own parasitic class consumption? Don't say that you don't know what I'm talking about, sovok-man.

    Soviet Food Shortages

    Description
    The 1980s posed many challenges for the everyday lives of the average citizens of East Europe countries, including daily difficulties created from shortages. Buying such necessities as food, clothing, and hygiene products was recurring obstacle to the average consumer. Food shortages were the result of declining agricultural production, which particularly plagued the Soviet Union. This chart reflects the widespread underproduction throughout the Soviet Republics. Only Ukraine, Belorussia, and Kazakhstan produced a surplus. The most populous republic, Russia, was dependent on imports of all food categories in order to reach subsistence level. While these statistics are from 1991, the CIA estimated that production was only a small percentage (5.4%) below its average throughout the 1980s. In other words, the Soviet Union never produced sufficient food to feed itself.

    http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/files/display/192/fullsize


    Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, "The Republics of the Former USSR: The Outlook for the Next Year," September 1991, table 5, Cold War International History Project, Documents and Papers, CWIHP (accessed May 14, 2008).

    How to Cite this Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, "Soviet Food Shortages," Making the History of 1989, Item #182, http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/items/show/182 (accessed May 07 2020, 2:56 pm).

    Tags
    Soviet Union, Environment, Economy, Chart

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  255. @AP
    @NazBolFren

    Will address most of this later. It’s funny that you forget Sovok food shortages though. This is about meat shortages in 1976:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/10/archives/soviet-diet-still-starchy-as-meat-drive-lags.html

    In the decade since Leonid I. Brezhnev took power in 1965 meat consumption per capita has risen from 90 pounds to nearly 128 pounds last year, according to Soviet statistics. This is still about half the American consumption per capita.

    So Americans ate steak, Sovoks ate kasha or potatoes.

    My wife recalls grandmother being sent to the store early in the morning to get food before the stores got empty.

    More:


    Supplies Are Irregular

    In Moscow and, evidently, in other Soviet cities, meatless Thursdays have been mandated for restaurants, though not those serving foreign tourists. In Moscow alone, this measure has released 300 tons of meat every Thursday for local markets.

    But supplies are irregular enough to produce inevitable grumbling. “There are no chickens anywhere, and when there are, the line is too long. and I've forgotten what pork looks like,” said a shopper in Moscow.

    Some Muscovites also complain that their markets are being raided by shoppers who come in by train or bus from other cities. Moscow and Leningrad are believed to he getting first priority in distribution of food and consumer goods, because they are “hero” cities that are also visited by foreigners. By contrast, Russian from the Chelyabinsk region of the Urals reported that his home town had only potatoes, bread and vodka in the stores last winter.

    The distribution pattern has given rise to a joke now circulating among Russians, in which a collective farm chairman promises his workers that under Communism each farmer will have a helicopter some day.

    “Why do I need a helicopter?” a farmer asks.

    “When there is no sausage in the stores, you can fly in your helicopter to Moscow and buy it there,” the farm chairman explains.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    Your wives experiences are not my experiences and not the experiences of family members and friends.

    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30 (which coincidentally is far more statistically significant)

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons – the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war, had a great deal of help from great britain durind industrilaization, etc vs the USSR that had 30 years to industralize and had no help from anyone else and was isolated in terms of trade whereas the USA had the entire world to leech from.

    • Replies: @AP
    @NazBolFren


    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?
     
    The fact from the article that Sovoks consumed only half as much meat as did Americans in 1976 was accurate.

    Sovok food rationing and shortages in 1981:

    https://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1201/120145.html

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30
     
    Yes because my n=1 corresponds to countrywide data. Your alleged claims do not.

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons – the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war
     
    Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  256. AP says:
    @anonymous coward
    @AP


    So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital – collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary – collaborator.
     
    Not necessarily collaborators, yes. But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were.

    And yes, there is a fine line. Working as a medic for the SS definitely counts as collaboration. So does propagandizing little kids.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.
     
    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration. Who owned your little chunk of clay and when is completely irrelevant to the question.

    Very weak sauce, my man. There genuine 'dindu nuffin' cases that you could have cited, q

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    But if the retreating Germans were obligated to take you with them due to fear of advancing Soviet troops, then you definitely were

    .

    Wrong again and as usual. Germans weren’t obligated to take anyone.

    Most people just made their way west on trains or on foot on their own, as refugees do everywhere. It wasn’t rocket science to know that life would be much better in the West and this was the last opportunity to get there. Sovok nightmare of 1939-1941 was enough of a taste. Germans had more important things to do than hunt anti- Communist refugees.

    Uh, no. Working for Nazi Germany counts as Nazi collaboration.

    Uh no, only in the case of people working against their own country on behalf of the Germans. Not true of Hungarians, Balts, Galicians.

  257. AP says:
    @NazBolFren
    @AP

    Your wives experiences are not my experiences and not the experiences of family members and friends.

    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30 (which coincidentally is far more statistically significant)

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons - the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war, had a great deal of help from great britain durind industrilaization, etc vs the USSR that had 30 years to industralize and had no help from anyone else and was isolated in terms of trade whereas the USA had the entire world to leech from.

    Replies: @AP

    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?

    The fact from the article that Sovoks consumed only half as much meat as did Americans in 1976 was accurate.

    Sovok food rationing and shortages in 1981:

    https://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1201/120145.html

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30

    Yes because my n=1 corresponds to countrywide data. Your alleged claims do not.

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons – the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war

    Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @AP

    My n=30 corresponds to countrywide data. Yours corresponds to what you want to believe

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries. You are a petty bourgeoisie much like Karlin. Did the Soviet people have everything they needed to be healthy and thrive? Yes. Did they have the basic luxuries? Yes. Everything else is extra and nice to have. This is where the USA does well. But how does the USA produce everything? Via sweatshops and quasi-slave labor (much like European colonial powers would leech resources and slave labor from their colonies).

    >Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    Because West Germany (and most of Europe) was rebuilt with American money via the marshall plan. Germany without American help would not have rebuilt as fast or as well.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-10-12-0410120132-story.html

    And yes, Germans did not reach most of Russia - but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people live so much of the productive portion of russia was destroyed.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-people-live-in-the-European-part-of-the-Russian-Federation

    Replies: @AP

  258. @AP
    @NazBolFren


    Also nice propaganda piece you posted, you sure its accurate?
     
    The fact from the article that Sovoks consumed only half as much meat as did Americans in 1976 was accurate.

    Sovok food rationing and shortages in 1981:

    https://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1201/120145.html

    Its funny you think your n=1 is better than my n=30
     
    Yes because my n=1 corresponds to countrywide data. Your alleged claims do not.

    Also, you continue to make inaccurate comparisons – the USA had 150-200 years of non-stop development, never suffered massive population loss from war
     
    Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    My n=30 corresponds to countrywide data. Yours corresponds to what you want to believe

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries. You are a petty bourgeoisie much like Karlin. Did the Soviet people have everything they needed to be healthy and thrive? Yes. Did they have the basic luxuries? Yes. Everything else is extra and nice to have. This is where the USA does well. But how does the USA produce everything? Via sweatshops and quasi-slave labor (much like European colonial powers would leech resources and slave labor from their colonies).

    >Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    Because West Germany (and most of Europe) was rebuilt with American money via the marshall plan. Germany without American help would not have rebuilt as fast or as well.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-10-12-0410120132-story.html

    And yes, Germans did not reach most of Russia – but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people live so much of the productive portion of russia was destroyed.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-people-live-in-the-European-part-of-the-Russian-Federation

    • Replies: @AP
    @NazBolFren


    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished
     
    This article says the opposite of what you claim. It says store shelves are empty. Not due to lack of production but due to Sovok incompetence.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries
     
    For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Germans did not reach most of Russia – but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people
     
    So because Germans reached European Russia in 1943 Soviets couldn’t supply their citizens with plentiful housing, meat, good cars, consumer products in 1981. :-)

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Dacian Julien Soros

  259. AP says:
    @NazBolFren
    @AP

    My n=30 corresponds to countrywide data. Yours corresponds to what you want to believe

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries. You are a petty bourgeoisie much like Karlin. Did the Soviet people have everything they needed to be healthy and thrive? Yes. Did they have the basic luxuries? Yes. Everything else is extra and nice to have. This is where the USA does well. But how does the USA produce everything? Via sweatshops and quasi-slave labor (much like European colonial powers would leech resources and slave labor from their colonies).

    >Always an excuse. Why not blame serfdom? Western Germany was destroyed by the war but didn’t have meat shortages and rationing in the 1970s and 1980s. And Germans never reached most of Russia.

    Because West Germany (and most of Europe) was rebuilt with American money via the marshall plan. Germany without American help would not have rebuilt as fast or as well.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-10-12-0410120132-story.html

    And yes, Germans did not reach most of Russia - but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people live so much of the productive portion of russia was destroyed.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-people-live-in-the-European-part-of-the-Russian-Federation

    Replies: @AP

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished

    This article says the opposite of what you claim. It says store shelves are empty. Not due to lack of production but due to Sovok incompetence.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries

    For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Germans did not reach most of Russia – but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people

    So because Germans reached European Russia in 1943 Soviets couldn’t supply their citizens with plentiful housing, meat, good cars, consumer products in 1981. 🙂

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @AP

    No. The article says that they overproduced things, but they couldn't distribute it because the centrally planned apparatus was dismantled by Gorbachev as I said before.

    Look at the date. 1990 - 7 years after the Soviet Centrally Planned system was being dismantled it still produced sufficient food to feed everyone and there were no dangers of famine.


    >For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Again you demonstrate your sophism. Most of the world did not eat meat and you keep comparing the USSR to the USA whilst totally ignoring examples of failed capitalism like in Central and South America for example.

    If we are to talk about the failures of capitalism, why has modern Ukraine/Russia not reached German levels of economy after becoming capitalist? Surely capitalism solves all ills?

    And yet most people still cannot afford luxuries, struggle to buy food and housing and the economic productivity of Russia/Ukraine is below that most of Europe. Furthermore, over 21 million russians live in poverty - caused by the capitalist system - which would be impossible under the Soviet rule.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/30/21m-russians-live-in-poverty-official-data-says-a66618

    Before you bring up communism again, explain why Italy is unproductive or Greece who have been capitalist since the War. Also, explain the economic failure of India/Africa.

    So the issue is not with capitalism/communism, but rather historical factors that led to success of certain countries over others - for example that the USA had extensive help from Britain during its industrialization, it had 200 years of uninterrupted development, and relied on being Europe's banker while it fought in wars while being isolated by an ocean.

    Whereas the Soviets had to deal with multiple wars, economic and political isolation and numerous other factors and yet were still able to build a functional state and offer their citizens everything they needed to survive.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Dacian Julien Soros
    @AP


    For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.
     
    Home ownership is 90% in all post-socialist countries, almost 30 years after the collapse; but 60% in "developed" countries. If home ownership "is for regular people", then socialism is completely regular, and America is Skid Row defacate.

    Same goes with meat. Where are the queues for food on the planet right now? New York or Bucharest? Romania had the queues for 5 years, almost half a century ago, and its enemies keep reminding us about that. But America has had the queues for more than a century.

    Well, we had queues for free food last time we allied with the West, in the thirties. Hopefully, (((they))) can help us get those queues back.

    Replies: @AP

  260. @AP
    @NazBolFren


    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1990-12-02-1990336114-story.html

    Here is an article from the baltimore sun that indicates the exact opposite, there were no significant food shortages, USSR outsripped USA in terms of agricultural production and kept its population well nourished
     
    This article says the opposite of what you claim. It says store shelves are empty. Not due to lack of production but due to Sovok incompetence.

    The point is this, you have a hard-on for luxuries
     
    For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Germans did not reach most of Russia – but most of Russia is uninhabited but they did reach most of European Russia where most people
     
    So because Germans reached European Russia in 1943 Soviets couldn’t supply their citizens with plentiful housing, meat, good cars, consumer products in 1981. :-)

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Dacian Julien Soros

    No. The article says that they overproduced things, but they couldn’t distribute it because the centrally planned apparatus was dismantled by Gorbachev as I said before.

    Look at the date. 1990 – 7 years after the Soviet Centrally Planned system was being dismantled it still produced sufficient food to feed everyone and there were no dangers of famine.

    >For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Again you demonstrate your sophism. Most of the world did not eat meat and you keep comparing the USSR to the USA whilst totally ignoring examples of failed capitalism like in Central and South America for example.

    If we are to talk about the failures of capitalism, why has modern Ukraine/Russia not reached German levels of economy after becoming capitalist? Surely capitalism solves all ills?

    And yet most people still cannot afford luxuries, struggle to buy food and housing and the economic productivity of Russia/Ukraine is below that most of Europe. Furthermore, over 21 million russians live in poverty – caused by the capitalist system – which would be impossible under the Soviet rule.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/30/21m-russians-live-in-poverty-official-data-says-a66618

    Before you bring up communism again, explain why Italy is unproductive or Greece who have been capitalist since the War. Also, explain the economic failure of India/Africa.

    So the issue is not with capitalism/communism, but rather historical factors that led to success of certain countries over others – for example that the USA had extensive help from Britain during its industrialization, it had 200 years of uninterrupted development, and relied on being Europe’s banker while it fought in wars while being isolated by an ocean.

    Whereas the Soviets had to deal with multiple wars, economic and political isolation and numerous other factors and yet were still able to build a functional state and offer their citizens everything they needed to survive.

    • Replies: @AP
    @NazBolFren


    No. The article says that they overproduced things, but they couldn’t distribute it because the centrally planned apparatus was dismantled by Gorbachev as I said before.
     
    Socialists has shortages in 1976, 1981 and 1990. Each time there was an excuse of some kind, but the bottom line is that while Sovoks didn't have stuff or had stuff rationed, people living in capitalist countries had these things.

    >For impoverished Sovoks (as for lumpen in American ghettos) having a house and eating meat whenever I want is a luxury. But it’s just normal for regular people.

    Again you demonstrate your sophism. Most of the world did not eat meat and you keep comparing the USSR to the USA whilst totally ignoring examples of failed capitalism like in Central and South America for example.
     
    I'm comparing USSR to other European people with lot of land and natural resources, not to African pygmies or Mayan Indians in the jungle. When you try to compare Soviets to Guatemalans you are the one engaging in sophism.

    USSR had similar caloric intake to the USA, but Americans ate twice as much meat per capita. Soviets were eating lots of potatoes and kasha instead.

    But there is one European-populated country in South America - Argentina. In 1973 Argentina had a higher per capita GDP than did the USSR or any Eastern European Communist country.

    If we are to talk about the failures of capitalism, why has modern Ukraine/Russia not reached German levels of economy after becoming capitalist? Surely capitalism solves all ills?
     
    Who ran the "capitalism" of the 1990s in Russia and Ukraine? Sovoks. The elite produced by the Soviet system.

    And yet most people still cannot afford luxuries, struggle to buy food and housing and the economic productivity of Russia/Ukraine is below that most of Europe
     
    In constant dollars Russia's per capita GDP is higher than it had been in 1989:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=RU

    Moreover, while only 4% of Russia's current GDP is spent on the military, in Soviet times in the 1980s it was 15%. So regular Russian people have far more wealth than Sovoks did. As is obvious for anyone who has seen both the USSR and Russia with their own eyes.

    Furthermore, over 21 million russians live in poverty – caused by the capitalist system – which would be impossible under the Soviet rule.
     
    And before most of the people lived in near-poverty, this was better?

    Before you bring up communism again, explain why Italy is unproductive or Greece who have been capitalist since the War.
     
    In 1973 Italy and Greece were richer than the USSR:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Whereas the Soviets had to deal with multiple wars, economic and political isolation and numerous other factors
     
    Every country in the world has unique circumstances. You are using the to make convenient excuses to why Soviets were in poverty. If the Soviets had no war but America did, you would say that war made Americans more resilient, innovative and stronger, that's why Soviets are poorer. But the bottom line is that everywhere Communist countries are poorer than their capitalist analogues. North Korea is much poorer than South Korea. East Germany much poorer than West Germany. Czechoslovakia and Hungary much poorer than Austria (they were very close before Communism). China before it became capitalist was much poorer than Taiwan.

    Communism unnecessarily killed tens of millions of people, and destroyed beautiful traditions and cultures, for the sake of materialism. And it just made people a lot materially poorer than they would have been otherwise.

    An epic farce and tragedy.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  261. @AP
    @Dmitry


    If I recall you had a tourist experience (for some days?) in Ukraine in 1991, when the country’s economy
     
    I think it was 1990. I stayed at tourist hotels but also with family, and visited many relatives in their apartments, so I saw how people actually lived. By Western standards it was poverty. Large numbers of people crammed into small apartments. Few cars, and those that existed were of quality so low I had never experienced it. Not much, and poor quality, food (except bread, which admittedly was perhaps the best I have tasted). Quality of clothes as in the third world.

    had worst collapse in modern history for 6 years already
     
    There was no war, plague, or other event to trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system's inherent inferiority.

    And it is no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela. There is always an excuse.

    I think Maddison Project obviously overestimate significantly when they claim Russian GDP per capita was 96% of United Kingdom real GDP per capita in 1983
     
    I don't have time to hunt for the graph for 1983. Wiki has 1973. In 1973, the USSR had about half the GDP per capita of the UK and slightly more than one third that of the USA. It was worse than fascist Spain and Portugal. It was only about 20% higher than in Mexico:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#1%E2%80%932008_(Maddison)

    A disproportionate amount of the Soviet economy was tied up with the military so the discrepancy between the Soviets and the others in terms of civilian life was even much greater than that indicated by the GDP figures.

    But the fact is that Russia was an advanced industrialized economy by 1980s, and that the population lived well, with a GDP per capita not so distant from Western European countries.
     
    We hosted an aunt and uncle from the USSR in the early 1980s (their kids weren't allowed to join them because the Soviets wanted the parents to return). They were shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot. Not only by the number of them but by the quality; they were much better than Volgas, and no comparison to Zhigulis. Their initial thought was: this was propaganda, a show - the government parked those cars there to make it look like workers were so wealthy. They were amazed by the stores, supermarkets, houses, private swimming pools, etc.

    To give one example – a child wants music lessons and to play the piano. In Soviet times, with any ability, they have access to all this for free, and lessons with a professional teacher, and on a professional piano. On the other hand, today (in Russia, but probably also many Western countries) only a small minority of children have parents which will afford this in the private route, at least at a high level, with professional level piano and teacher.
     
    This is possible when everyone is equally poor. The physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.

    In Soviet times people "lived well" because they weren't starving, they could afford some basic low quality things, and everyone was about equally poor so they did not have much cause to be envious.

    As for materially – my parents in their youth had material things (e.g. cameras, portable cassette players, hi-fi system, consumer electronic products, etc), not of a different kind – perhaps slightly lower quality – than belongs to people in Western Europe
     
    So do the poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks. A 15 year old car owned by an American lumpen was still better than a new Soviet-era car that most Soviets could not even afford.

    Meanwhile when one of my relatives was a baby in Soviet Russia during Brezhnev times, she and her brother lived with her parents, grandmother and great-grandmother in a two room apartment. Kids, grandmother and great-grandmother all shared one room, parents had the other room. In America only the poorest lumpens have such crowded conditions. Her parents were both university professors.

    There is of course a vast cultural difference between poor lumpens in America and middle class Soviets. For this reason one would certainly prefer to live among the latter than among the former. But materially, in terms of living space, number and quality of possessions - not much difference.

    Soviet Union developed the world’s most advanced military capacity, and has dominated many areas of science and technology, as well as being the dominant cultural and athletic power of the second half of the 20th century.
     
    Soviet military capacity nearly matched that of the West but everything else was far behind. Just as North Korea's military capacity matches that of its Westernized neighbors but the country otherwise is far behind.

    And yet North Koreans accomplished this. [nukes and missiles]

    Iraq and Syria would, if Israel does not bomb their nuclear weapons projects.
     
    North Korea has developed the powerful military capacity to deter attacks on its nuclear project. This is part of why it is such a successful country, according to the Stalinist model..

    North Korea has developed the world’s most primitive nuclear
     
    A small country of 26 million under intense sanctions and scrutiny. An amazing feat.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    small apartments. Few cars

    On the other hand, public transport was one of the best in the world, and only surpassed by countries like Japan or France.

    Cars are a “mixed blessing”, of course, and can’t be considered simplistically as a metric for living standards, or economic advancement – e.g. cars kill more people than coronavirus ever will, just by their accidents, let alone their pollution; they are energy inefficient; they distort urban planning, etc.

    trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system’s inherent inferiority

    Central planning has inherent epistemic inferiorities, due to lacking the price-signalling mechanism, as was explained by Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek since the 1920s. (Although probably in the future it will become possible to reduce these inferiorities, as this was partly a technological problem – for example, internet cookies now, are better than surveys were then).

    However, economic collapse of the USSR was not spontaneous result of inefficiencies in central planning. It was a result of external shock from oil price collapse, as well as deliberate deconstruction of central planning mechanisms, and deliberate deconstruction of decades of protectionism and import substitution policies, etc.

    It was a “perfect storm” of external shock conditions, at the same time as deliberate dismantling. Here is the oil price collapse in 1983.

    1983. Wiki has 1973

    According to Maddison, in 1973 we (Russia) are 90% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 59% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.

    In their “multiple benchmarks $” which they recommend for cross-country income comparison, then in 1973 Russia are 90,6% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 50,7% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.

    no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela

    In Venezuela, there is populism, with government allies controlling the main industries. It’s a mixed economy. There isn’t an attempt in building a centrally planned economy.

    shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot

    American car ownership is amazing today.

    However, the fact Russia has been able to “catch up” to some extent, or massively reduce the gap, in this metric in the last 35 years, at the same time that the economic distance has only increased between the two countries – shows it’s not such a useful metric.

    And in terms of quality of life, public transport might be more important – and for example, Americans are shocked when they travel by train in Japan or Europe, and a significant proportion of them prefer it; while this option has failed in America.

    were amazed by the stores, supermarkets,

    Gorbachev was shocked in visiting Washington DC, about how they could plan the catering system, for so many different kinds of restaurants he saw there. There was some stubborn, chauvinistic, intentional idiocy in this, trying to pretend that non-centrally planned economies didn’t exist for much of human history.

    physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.

    Piano teachers – with a curriculum – and pianos were provided by schools which had a music branch, if the child can pass music exams to qualify. So a couple of hours every day they could to the music school, and the rest of the day they are in the general school.

    This is dismantled and ruined now, so that music is mostly available for families where parent will be able to pay for a private teacher and the instruments at home.

    If you want to relate ironically it to 19th century history – Karl and Jenny Marx had to sacrifice a large part of their income, to be able to hire music teachers for their children in London. Until the USSR, formal musical education was something mostly limited to the bourgeoisie. While the USSR could provide such amenities to a wider proportion of the public, and at a higher quality level.

    poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks

    I know we are on bit of a weirdly race-obsessed forum, but why do you expect I will be surprised by the consumer possessions of African Americans.

    African Americans have better consumer possessions, than half of people in Europe. Their economic problems relate to unaffordable healthcare and education. In addition: extremely high rates of imprisonment and a recent, depressing decline in cultural contributions (when last century they had added more to music than many whole countries in Europe).

    • Thanks: NazBolFren
    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    small apartments. Few cars

    On the other hand, public transport was one of the best in the world
     

    A blind man develops keen hearing. A society too poor to provide personal transportation for its citizens develops better public transportation. These are compensations for defects, nothing to brag about.

    and only surpassed by countries like Japan or France
     
    Japan is very small and densely populated. Excellent mass transportation is normal for such a place. As for a huge sparsely populated country like Russia - see my comment above. It's a symptom of severe dysfunction.

    However, economic collapse of the USSR was not spontaneous result of inefficiencies in central planning. It was a result of external shock from oil price collapse, as well as deliberate deconstruction of central planning mechanisms, and deliberate deconstruction of decades of protectionism and import substitution policies, etc.
     
    So an element of Venezuela, of course.

    American car ownership is amazing today.

    However, the fact Russia has been able to “catch up” to some extent, or massively reduce the gap, in this metric in the last 35 years, at the same time that the economic distance has only increased between the two countries – shows it’s not such a useful metric.
     

    Russia has reduced the gap because America was and is at the normal maximum (nearly every adult owns a car) so there has not been much room for additional cars per person. But the impoverished Soviet Union had a shortage of cars, as for everything else, so now as Russians become wealthier they are catching up while Americans stay in place with respect to this item.

    And in terms of quality of life, public transport might be more important – and for example, Americans are shocked when they travel by train in Japan or Europe, and a significant proportion of them prefer it; while this option has failed in America.
     
    Japan and Europe are very densely populated. Mass transit makes sense there. Outside major US metro areas it does not in the USA. It is for poor people who can't afford cars, and there aren't enough of them to support an extensive network. In the USSR, everyone was poor so an extensive network of public transportation was necessary.

    Most of my friends in Moscow have cars and drive them to work, but I would't want one there, to deal with frustrating slow traffic (except to go to the dacha). OTOH, in a smaller city one can drive to work in a few minutes, drive to friends' houses, got to stores without carrying stuff around. No dependence on schedules, routes, minimal exposure to bad weather, and much faster.

    So in a small or medium-sized North American city a schoolteacher married to a nurse (two middle-class people, not upper middle class or rich) would have their own house and yard, with separate bedrooms for each kid, two cars, perhaps their own private swimming pool (above ground, which is cheaper). My Soviet uncle and aunt were teachers in a small oblast capital in Ukraine. They and their two kids had a two room apartment with no elevator. No cars, they got around on buses like poor people. Aunt's brother had a Zhiguli which was such a bad car it was funny. I guess they could have piano lessons for their kids.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    According to Maddison, in 1973 we (Russia) are 90% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 59% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.
     
    I think Maddison methodology overestimates the impact of oil when calculating GDP. According to Maddison, in 1973 Iraq had a higher per capita GDP than did any western European country and Venezuela was almost the same as Finland. So Russia's number was probably inflated, (like Iraq's and Venezuela's), and the figure for Ukraine, which has no oil, was closer to reality.
    , @songbird
    @Dmitry


    I know we are on bit of a weirdly race-obsessed forum
     
    What makes it weird is exactly that it is a forum - that there is a fair amount of freedom of speech represented in the ability to comment without heavy moderation.

    Within an American context, sites that are race-obsessed are fairly mainstream, although it is generally done from the perspective of progressive politics. For example: the NYT, or Washington Post, other news sites, as well as countless entertainment sites. But you cannot comment freely on these sites. Many have even removed the comment section - likely due to race.

    I would also say that whether being race-obsessed is weird or not, depends on the environmental context, and the direction of the obsession. For blacks living in Britain to be obsessed with whites is clearly odd and pathological - such people should move to a non-white country to experience a healthier mental state, if a decreased standard of living. On the other hand, for whites living in Britain, it appears pathological to not be obsessed with race, when you consider the rate of immigration, or how it creates a worse environment for the natives.

    Just the other day I heard someone say something like "I don't care if in the future there are no more whites in Britain, as long as the culture continues - that is the important thing." Surely, giving an opinion like that is a very odd behavior precipitated by this new idea that it is wrong to care about race.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Dmitry

  262. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Millions of citizens is a meme firstly.

    Secondly, its easy to sit back in your chair and criticize. Lets see you do better, without 20/20 hindsight.

    Finally, shall we analyze how many millions of people have died due to starvation (by not being able to afford basic necessities like food), died in wars over resources/money, that were enslaved (and continue to be enslaved in third world countries) in order to produce cheap widgets for the owners of the means of production throughout history all over the world? And continue to do so in the modern world?

    Or shall we analyze the 20 million or so population that was lost in Russia alone due to immigration, deaths from crime, deaths from disesase/drugs/trauma/suicide/etc, due to lack of births (fall in birth rate), starvation during the gangster privitization of the 90s? What about the 20% of the population currently living in poverty? Or the millions that cannot afford living expenses due to lack of work in modern russia? The gangster capitalism of the 90's was worse than world war 2 in terms of the effects on the country.

    Sure the USSR had its problems, but at least MOST people had the basic necessities of living.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Incessant food shortages across the iron curtain block played a huge role in bringing the whole charade down. It’s obvious that your family was part of the nomenklatura that was taken care of, therefore your lousy whining to this day elicits no tears from anybody except from you. Remember the little private stores set-up only for your own parasitic class consumption? Don’t say that you don’t know what I’m talking about, sovok-man.

    Soviet Food Shortages

    Description
    The 1980s posed many challenges for the everyday lives of the average citizens of East Europe countries, including daily difficulties created from shortages. Buying such necessities as food, clothing, and hygiene products was recurring obstacle to the average consumer. Food shortages were the result of declining agricultural production, which particularly plagued the Soviet Union. This chart reflects the widespread underproduction throughout the Soviet Republics. Only Ukraine, Belorussia, and Kazakhstan produced a surplus. The most populous republic, Russia, was dependent on imports of all food categories in order to reach subsistence level. While these statistics are from 1991, the CIA estimated that production was only a small percentage (5.4%) below its average throughout the 1980s. In other words, the Soviet Union never produced sufficient food to feed itself.

    http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/files/display/192/fullsize

    Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, “The Republics of the Former USSR: The Outlook for the Next Year,” September 1991, table 5, Cold War International History Project, Documents and Papers, CWIHP (accessed May 14, 2008).

    How to Cite this Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, “Soviet Food Shortages,” Making the History of 1989, Item #182, http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/items/show/182 (accessed May 07 2020, 2:56 pm).

    Tags
    Soviet Union, Environment, Economy, Chart

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    This link means nothing. As has been already mentioned multiple times on this thread - in the 1980's systematic dismantling of the Soviet Planned economy had already begun so naturally there were shortages.

    My family was an average family. We were nothing special.

    It's obvious you and your ilk were bourgeoisie in the pre-Soviet times, or were various assortment of traitors or jews and thats why you hate the USSR.

    The fact of the matter is (and that you never addressed) Capitalism killed far more people than the USSR ever did, and Russia alone lost more people after the capitalist privitazation of the 1990's than it did in WW2.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  263. @NazBolFren
    @Dmitry

    Ah I see. Kiev in 1990's is not representative of the USSR or how the people lived at all. By that time the government had essentially collapsed, infrastructure was destroyed, and it was gangsterism everywhere.

    Although I'd disagree with your observations about housing - the people who lived in shitty, old khruschevka's were mostly working class and this is very often the case for people from most countries.

    But you are absolutely right, if AP lived in rich cities of America (I went on a road trip through Connecticut and the squalor and destruction I saw looked worse than what I saw in the 90's) then its not surprising he had such a culture shock.

    Also, lets not forget that much of the Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing after the war and was supposed to be replaced - I read about how the Soviet leadership planned to do a gradual upgrade and replacement of the khruschevka's on a large scale throughout the country by the late 80's - but it never happened because of the collapse.


    Finally, a brief mention on North Korea (so I don't spam posts) - I greatly respect the fact that North Korea is keeping its country closed and protected from the general cultural degeneration that we see throughout the West (and in South Korea itself). Also, people overestimate North Korean poverty and government incompetence (they have extensive military R&D but are severely limited in resources) and underestimate the effect isolation and sanctions are having on it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    old khruschevka… Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing

    It was constructed for 30 year lifespan, and it was good housing when it was new relative to where people were living before.

    This prefabricated building design is low quality, but they usually placed it in excellent infrastructure, transport access, and every apartment equipped with electricity (which was exciting in the 1960s).

    The design specifications were only for 30 years, and the idea was that it would all be demolished and upgraded. As we know, the country collapsed before.

    It can be fine to live in those building, but only depending on the cultural level of your neighbours. The disadvantage was the difficulty to avoid having drunks in your building, and not being able to filter out your type of neighbours by price. If everyone in the building is behaving in a civilized way, then they can be habitable.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    And if the smell of alcoholic urine doesn't bother you while you try to get the elevator to work.

    The alternative is to climb 5-6 floors to get to your "penthouse" view. :-(

    , @Mikhail
    @Dmitry

    In the US and some other places, that kind of structure isn't often inhabited by the civilized behavior you reference.

    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    @Dmitry

    BTW - I have been checking on the Yandex Index of self-isolation most days in the last 5 weeks :

    https://yandex.ru/web-maps/covid19/isolation?ll=42.083741%2C39.979808&z=5.74


    It's quite interesting. Results perfectly going with what my friends there have been telling me in Tbilisi and Batumi and the rest of Gruzia - a complete prison there for 4 weeks, scoring very high at 4.4+ throughout in the index . Now in the last 2 weeks they have been going out of lockdown with practically nobody getting infected there now..... and Tbilisi is still worse than Moscow! That is ridiculous - at least most of the rest of Gruzia has lowered the strictness.

    Armenia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan were much less strict than Gruzia.... but still stricter than Russia.

    As for us, apart from Moscow (by far the strictest throughout, though it is gradually declining in adherence) and some spots in the South and North.... we have been not isolating that much. All the country was well behaved for the first non-working week..... after that(apart from maybe the first 2days of this week) most of the country, including even Saint Petersburg, has been closer to Minsk in score than to Moscow!

    Far east, Irkutsk, Novosibirsk Kemerevo, and others have effectively not bothered at all. In Kazan, even with the registration system, plenty of us have been outside regularly.

    I know you don't like it, but I am liking these 1.3 to 2.5 scores throughout the country. I am praying that this increased street and road activity is reflected in some economic output..... and that Putin tommorow does not get out put off by Sobyanin's understandable but constant negativity..... and removes many covid restrictions throughout the country

  264. @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    Incessant food shortages across the iron curtain block played a huge role in bringing the whole charade down. It's obvious that your family was part of the nomenklatura that was taken care of, therefore your lousy whining to this day elicits no tears from anybody except from you. Remember the little private stores set-up only for your own parasitic class consumption? Don't say that you don't know what I'm talking about, sovok-man.

    Soviet Food Shortages

    Description
    The 1980s posed many challenges for the everyday lives of the average citizens of East Europe countries, including daily difficulties created from shortages. Buying such necessities as food, clothing, and hygiene products was recurring obstacle to the average consumer. Food shortages were the result of declining agricultural production, which particularly plagued the Soviet Union. This chart reflects the widespread underproduction throughout the Soviet Republics. Only Ukraine, Belorussia, and Kazakhstan produced a surplus. The most populous republic, Russia, was dependent on imports of all food categories in order to reach subsistence level. While these statistics are from 1991, the CIA estimated that production was only a small percentage (5.4%) below its average throughout the 1980s. In other words, the Soviet Union never produced sufficient food to feed itself.

    http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/files/display/192/fullsize


    Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, "The Republics of the Former USSR: The Outlook for the Next Year," September 1991, table 5, Cold War International History Project, Documents and Papers, CWIHP (accessed May 14, 2008).

    How to Cite this Source
    Central Intelligence Agency, "Soviet Food Shortages," Making the History of 1989, Item #182, http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/items/show/182 (accessed May 07 2020, 2:56 pm).

    Tags
    Soviet Union, Environment, Economy, Chart

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    This link means nothing. As has been already mentioned multiple times on this thread – in the 1980’s systematic dismantling of the Soviet Planned economy had already begun so naturally there were shortages.

    My family was an average family. We were nothing special.

    It’s obvious you and your ilk were bourgeoisie in the pre-Soviet times, or were various assortment of traitors or jews and thats why you hate the USSR.

    The fact of the matter is (and that you never addressed) Capitalism killed far more people than the USSR ever did, and Russia alone lost more people after the capitalist privitazation of the 1990’s than it did in WW2.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines perpetrated by the soviet government in the 1920's & 1930's, not in the 1980's. By the 1980's, much like your own family, it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within, waiting for the day that it would perish. It's quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise. This conversation really isn't going anywhere, because there's really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had. Not from the people and certainly not from its ex-leaders. The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  265. @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren


    old khruschevka... Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing
     
    It was constructed for 30 year lifespan, and it was good housing when it was new relative to where people were living before.

    This prefabricated building design is low quality, but they usually placed it in excellent infrastructure, transport access, and every apartment equipped with electricity (which was exciting in the 1960s).

    The design specifications were only for 30 years, and the idea was that it would all be demolished and upgraded. As we know, the country collapsed before.

    It can be fine to live in those building, but only depending on the cultural level of your neighbours. The disadvantage was the difficulty to avoid having drunks in your building, and not being able to filter out your type of neighbours by price. If everyone in the building is behaving in a civilized way, then they can be habitable.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    And if the smell of alcoholic urine doesn’t bother you while you try to get the elevator to work.

    The alternative is to climb 5-6 floors to get to your “penthouse” view. 🙁

  266. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP
    @anonymous coward

    You are wrong as usual but here you manage to be wrong in multiple ways. None of my grandparents worked for the Germans in Ukraine. Moreover, by your wrong standard everyone not imprisoned was a collaborator. So a medical student, part of whose duties included treating Germans at the hospital - collaborator. A schoolteacher who taught kids how to read and write and got a government salary - collaborator. Farmer obligated to give some food he produced to the Germans - collaborator. Guy who owned a business and paid taxes - collaborator.

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators. The only collaborators were those who cooperated with the Soviets.

    Definition of collaborate:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collaborate

    “ to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force”

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Mikhail

    Also, since in 1941 Galicia was not a recognized part of the USSR, any Galicians who did work with the Germans against the Soviets were by definition not collaborators.

    The Soviets recognized it as part of the USSR.

    Since the Soviets were not the Galicians’ country, a Galician working with the Germans against the Soviets was not a collaborator. You are just misusing the word, as leftists misuse words.

    The “Galicians” en masse had issues with being a part of Poland, with many becoming displeased with the Nazi occupation.

    You really exhibit a profound learning disability by not recognizing that colloborate means to work with.

    It’s accurate to say that many Galicians didn’t feel like they betrayed the USSR on the basis that:

    – the Soviets first had that territory for a brief period after M-R and before the Nazi attack on the USSR

    – many Galicians weren’t pleased with what they initially encountered under Soviet rule.

  267. @Dmitry
    @NazBolFren


    old khruschevka... Soviet housing that existed at the time where built as temporary housing
     
    It was constructed for 30 year lifespan, and it was good housing when it was new relative to where people were living before.

    This prefabricated building design is low quality, but they usually placed it in excellent infrastructure, transport access, and every apartment equipped with electricity (which was exciting in the 1960s).

    The design specifications were only for 30 years, and the idea was that it would all be demolished and upgraded. As we know, the country collapsed before.

    It can be fine to live in those building, but only depending on the cultural level of your neighbours. The disadvantage was the difficulty to avoid having drunks in your building, and not being able to filter out your type of neighbours by price. If everyone in the building is behaving in a civilized way, then they can be habitable.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mikhail, @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    In the US and some other places, that kind of structure isn’t often inhabited by the civilized behavior you reference.

  268. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    This link means nothing. As has been already mentioned multiple times on this thread - in the 1980's systematic dismantling of the Soviet Planned economy had already begun so naturally there were shortages.

    My family was an average family. We were nothing special.

    It's obvious you and your ilk were bourgeoisie in the pre-Soviet times, or were various assortment of traitors or jews and thats why you hate the USSR.

    The fact of the matter is (and that you never addressed) Capitalism killed far more people than the USSR ever did, and Russia alone lost more people after the capitalist privitazation of the 1990's than it did in WW2.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines perpetrated by the soviet government in the 1920’s & 1930’s, not in the 1980’s. By the 1980’s, much like your own family, it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within, waiting for the day that it would perish. It’s quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise. This conversation really isn’t going anywhere, because there’s really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had. Not from the people and certainly not from its ex-leaders. The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    >My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines

    Well that's the crux of the issue is it not. You personally have an issue with the system -- therefore you seek to confirm your own bias.

    >very man

    Very few you mean. Very many people lost their lives during WW2, so much so it affected most families. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who had someone or who knew someone who died in the famines

    >it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within,

    Isn't this the case for every system?

    >waiting for the day that it would perish

    Why would it have perished in the 1980's when the Soviets ate more nutritiously and the same amount as their american counterparts?

    > It’s quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise.

    Yes, they did not. In fact there was a Union wide referendum where the population voted to keep the Union intact. 80% of the citizens of the Union voted to keep it intact

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum#Results

    >because there’s really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had

    Because of propaganda fueled by ex-leaders who want to steal as much as they can. Ukraine is a prime example of this.

    You said so yourself:
    > The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    So of course there is a great deal of misinformation (деза) that is fueled by people with a bone to pick (such as yourself, Karlin and AP) often through sophism and misinformation.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  269. @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines perpetrated by the soviet government in the 1920's & 1930's, not in the 1980's. By the 1980's, much like your own family, it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within, waiting for the day that it would perish. It's quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise. This conversation really isn't going anywhere, because there's really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had. Not from the people and certainly not from its ex-leaders. The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    >My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines

    Well that’s the crux of the issue is it not. You personally have an issue with the system — therefore you seek to confirm your own bias.

    >very man

    Very few you mean. Very many people lost their lives during WW2, so much so it affected most families. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who had someone or who knew someone who died in the famines

    >it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within,

    Isn’t this the case for every system?

    >waiting for the day that it would perish

    Why would it have perished in the 1980’s when the Soviets ate more nutritiously and the same amount as their american counterparts?

    > It’s quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise.

    Yes, they did not. In fact there was a Union wide referendum where the population voted to keep the Union intact. 80% of the citizens of the Union voted to keep it intact

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum#Results

    >because there’s really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had

    Because of propaganda fueled by ex-leaders who want to steal as much as they can. Ukraine is a prime example of this.

    You said so yourself:
    > The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    So of course there is a great deal of misinformation (деза) that is fueled by people with a bone to pick (such as yourself, Karlin and AP) often through sophism and misinformation.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren


    >My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines

    Well that’s the crux of the issue is it not. You personally have an issue with the system — therefore you seek to confirm your own bias.
     
    The point that I have a serious issue with the system does not confirm my bias, but actually goes a long ways in forming my opinion about it - that's kind of the way things work in the real world, Mr. "So Sad" Sovok.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5c1ee670af20965d2a58436e/1555251213191-CJUAEY8PN3WIQPZ0L7DY/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOjMGMtX1INcnkhA1n8gf8JZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWhcwhEtWJXoshNdA9f1qD7Xj1nVWs2aaTtWBneO2WM-uuWLZX1zqRCM3HnsAXhNAZgis6qyU0ds_rCjIEpR0asw/image-asset.jpeg?format=300w
  270. @AP
    @NazBolFren


    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.
     
    Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren't even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa.
     
    1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband's mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    2. Odessa has only about a million people. In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don't compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    https://cdn.repliers.io/IMG-W4412323_1.jpg

    Very modest middle-class Chicago-area housing for families:

    https://images1.apartments.com/i2/Hxm26W0dRSOgid2fVXuPiXqwtq1o6hFb5ILukR9hgEE/117/1401-elmhurst-ln-schaumburg-il-primary-photo.jpg

    Housing project for impoverished black people in Chicago:

    https://media.npr.org/assets/news/2010/12/06/chicago-176e8cb0fb2f87289bbda3bfd2b8b4f492fa572d-s800-c85.jpg

    Which one resembles housing for middle class Soviet people?

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).
     
    Moscow's and Kiev's metros are beautiful and in large cities, but living in a cramped apartment in a small city and having to rely on a bus is just sad for a non-poor family.

    This is typical shitty Soviet housing in Prpyat, a city of only 50,000 before it was abandoned:

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/5f0ca428dccbb984f7590c23bd755c62/3caf03a6d3fd2a38-2c/s500x750/f6fd9c0b02f1d74d7494f3d20d26e333fdac93a5.jpg

    Nice housing for Sovoks, a Sovok engineer could live in such a place. It resembles an American housing project.

    Oak Ridge TN is a small city with nuclear research. Here is typical middle class housing there:

    https://ap.rdcpix.com/c42a36660c3fadaad7fc683bbbffc9fal-b2096500134xd-w400_h320_q60.jpg

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends
     
    Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books - American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don't want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes. And I'll bet American lumpens' TVs and stereos were nicer than yours. Here is an American ghetto in the 1980s:

    https://www.collectorsweekly.com/uploads/2013/12/do-the-right-thing-radio-raheem-puerto-rican-music-duel1.jpg

    Everyone one of those cars driven by American underclass lumpens in the 1980s was more luxurious, larger, had more features, and was safer than Soviet Zhigulis, Moskvichys, or Volgas:

    https://i.redd.it/4przsw8s85801.jpg

    And more lumpens owned such cars than did middle-class Sovoks. And this is a ghetto in New York, which has effective public transportation.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    You remind me of housing conditions in London now. You can have an upper-middle class, professional job and yet still only be able to (for half your salary) afford a room in a flat with four other people and no living room.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Kent Nationalist

    Yes, there are pockets like that too, in Manhattan, and San Francisco.

    But in the USSR even small cities had this problem, which is shocking.

    In certain Western places this is usually caused by progressive politics so socialism is in part to blame. How a city avoided this:

    https://www.city-journal.org/montreal-affordable-housing

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Kent Nationalist

    From Los Angeles, I concur with you.

    Other than the very high-“earning” slice of society, most people are able to get by living here without sinking into debt or cramming into tiny spaces only if they

    (1) receive “section 8” housing vouchers or other assistance at the expense of the taxpayers, or more accurately from “money” that the fed gov has borrowed or printed out of thin air;

    (2) inherited a paid-for house from family who lived here before it became overcrowded, nonEuropean, and unaffordable for the middle class.

    If you don’t have an inherited home and aren’t poor enough to get the government to subsidize your housing, L.A. is an unsustainable and unfair proposition for anyone who wants to raise a family and not live like a fucking ant / Asian.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

  271. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    >My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines

    Well that's the crux of the issue is it not. You personally have an issue with the system -- therefore you seek to confirm your own bias.

    >very man

    Very few you mean. Very many people lost their lives during WW2, so much so it affected most families. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who had someone or who knew someone who died in the famines

    >it had learned to make the best of the system it was forced to live within,

    Isn't this the case for every system?

    >waiting for the day that it would perish

    Why would it have perished in the 1980's when the Soviets ate more nutritiously and the same amount as their american counterparts?

    > It’s quite telling that the vast majority of ex-soviet citizens never really demonstrated against its demise.

    Yes, they did not. In fact there was a Union wide referendum where the population voted to keep the Union intact. 80% of the citizens of the Union voted to keep it intact

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum#Results

    >because there’s really no movement afoot within the ex soviet states to return back to the type of system that it once had

    Because of propaganda fueled by ex-leaders who want to steal as much as they can. Ukraine is a prime example of this.

    You said so yourself:
    > The leaders are now able to steal much more than what they were used to under the old system, and have built up unimaginable oligarchic fiefdoms.

    So of course there is a great deal of misinformation (деза) that is fueled by people with a bone to pick (such as yourself, Karlin and AP) often through sophism and misinformation.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    >My family was one of very many that lost members in the famines

    Well that’s the crux of the issue is it not. You personally have an issue with the system — therefore you seek to confirm your own bias.

    The point that I have a serious issue with the system does not confirm my bias, but actually goes a long ways in forming my opinion about it – that’s kind of the way things work in the real world, Mr. “So Sad” Sovok.

  272. What is your issue?

    That the soviets didn’t eat as well as the Americans? This is easily disproven by the CIA factbook

    That the soviet people were against the USSR? This is false too as shown by referendum results.

    By the fact that some houses had drunks in it? That’s the case anywhere

    What then specifically is your issue?

    Oh then it must be that you had a few family members starve during a difficult period of industrialization. So you nitpick this detail and “form your opinion” around it, whilst totally ignoring the tens of millions that were affected by the collapse of the USSR for example, or how the USSR totally dominated the scientifica and athletic spheres of the world. But it didn’t affect “меня любимого “, so you don’t care. Also, its not really brought up in MSM so you don’t know much about it.

    Like I said, you, AP and Karlin are spreading misinformation – through sophism.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    I don't know about any sort of "sophism", but I am totally convinced that you suffer from some sort of serious sovok derangement syndrome, that must be a result of brain "softism." :-)

    https://youtu.be/kaHJAtFoGnM

    Go peddle your junk somewhere else, it's stale and useless in this day and age.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

  273. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    What is your issue?

    That the soviets didn't eat as well as the Americans? This is easily disproven by the CIA factbook

    That the soviet people were against the USSR? This is false too as shown by referendum results.

    By the fact that some houses had drunks in it? That's the case anywhere

    What then specifically is your issue?

    Oh then it must be that you had a few family members starve during a difficult period of industrialization. So you nitpick this detail and "form your opinion" around it, whilst totally ignoring the tens of millions that were affected by the collapse of the USSR for example, or how the USSR totally dominated the scientifica and athletic spheres of the world. But it didn't affect "меня любимого ", so you don't care. Also, its not really brought up in MSM so you don't know much about it.

    Like I said, you, AP and Karlin are spreading misinformation - through sophism.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I don’t know about any sort of “sophism”, but I am totally convinced that you suffer from some sort of serious sovok derangement syndrome, that must be a result of brain “softism.” 🙂

    Go peddle your junk somewhere else, it’s stale and useless in this day and age.

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Since you don't know what sophism is let me define it for you:

    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.

    Now, with that out of the way, you have been unable to offer any counterpoint to my points - instead resorting to posting caricatures - this is indicative of someone without an argument.

    Further you continuously appeal to pathos (just like AP) and have demonstrated a disregard for logos.

    Either present a coherent position or gtfo, because you have no position like a liberal. And Russia doesn't need your liberalism. Go spread your deza elsewhere

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  274. @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    I don't know about any sort of "sophism", but I am totally convinced that you suffer from some sort of serious sovok derangement syndrome, that must be a result of brain "softism." :-)

    https://youtu.be/kaHJAtFoGnM

    Go peddle your junk somewhere else, it's stale and useless in this day and age.

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    Since you don’t know what sophism is let me define it for you:

    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.

    Now, with that out of the way, you have been unable to offer any counterpoint to my points – instead resorting to posting caricatures – this is indicative of someone without an argument.

    Further you continuously appeal to pathos (just like AP) and have demonstrated a disregard for logos.

    Either present a coherent position or gtfo, because you have no position like a liberal. And Russia doesn’t need your liberalism. Go spread your deza elsewhere

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    You seem to have misunderstood me, I didn't state that I didn't know what the word "sophism" means, only that I didn't think that it applied either to Karlin, AP or myself. Did you watch the video? It applies to mindless sovoks like you, your stuff stinks and nobody needs or wants it anymore!

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    , @AP
    @NazBolFren


    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.
     
    An accurate self-diagnosis, sophist-sovok.
  275. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Since you don't know what sophism is let me define it for you:

    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.

    Now, with that out of the way, you have been unable to offer any counterpoint to my points - instead resorting to posting caricatures - this is indicative of someone without an argument.

    Further you continuously appeal to pathos (just like AP) and have demonstrated a disregard for logos.

    Either present a coherent position or gtfo, because you have no position like a liberal. And Russia doesn't need your liberalism. Go spread your deza elsewhere

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    You seem to have misunderstood me, I didn’t state that I didn’t know what the word “sophism” means, only that I didn’t think that it applied either to Karlin, AP or myself. Did you watch the video? It applies to mindless sovoks like you, your stuff stinks and nobody needs or wants it anymore!

    • Replies: @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Well clearly you thought wrong, because you're arguments are easily disproven and the one main argument that you admitted to basing everything around is based on emotion (pathos), so you search for something to confirm your bias and misrepresent any arguments to the contrary --> sophism

    AP uses comparisons that he clearly knows are invalid while failing to address the nuance or presents facts that are wrong or misrepresents existing facts intentionally --> this is sophism.

    Karlin admitted to being from a family of white emigre's, so it automatically makes anything he writes regarding the USSR suspect, he has admitted to treating Solzhenitsyn seriously, and fails to address nuance in his arguments (for example he made posts on how coal production in Russia has reached soviet levels after 30 years attributing it to capitalism, while failing to account for technological changes in coal mining). He often does this which means he either does it unknowingly or intentionally, I'm leaning towards intentionally --> this is sophism.

  276. @Mr. Hack
    @NazBolFren

    You seem to have misunderstood me, I didn't state that I didn't know what the word "sophism" means, only that I didn't think that it applied either to Karlin, AP or myself. Did you watch the video? It applies to mindless sovoks like you, your stuff stinks and nobody needs or wants it anymore!

    Replies: @NazBolFren

    Well clearly you thought wrong, because you’re arguments are easily disproven and the one main argument that you admitted to basing everything around is based on emotion (pathos), so you search for something to confirm your bias and misrepresent any arguments to the contrary –> sophism

    AP uses comparisons that he clearly knows are invalid while failing to address the nuance or presents facts that are wrong or misrepresents existing facts intentionally –> this is sophism.

    Karlin admitted to being from a family of white emigre’s, so it automatically makes anything he writes regarding the USSR suspect, he has admitted to treating Solzhenitsyn seriously, and fails to address nuance in his arguments (for example he made posts on how coal production in Russia has reached soviet levels after 30 years attributing it to capitalism, while failing to account for technological changes in coal mining). He often does this which means he either does it unknowingly or intentionally, I’m leaning towards intentionally –> this is sophism.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  277. AP says:
    @Kent Nationalist
    @AP

    You remind me of housing conditions in London now. You can have an upper-middle class, professional job and yet still only be able to (for half your salary) afford a room in a flat with four other people and no living room.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    Yes, there are pockets like that too, in Manhattan, and San Francisco.

    But in the USSR even small cities had this problem, which is shocking.

    In certain Western places this is usually caused by progressive politics so socialism is in part to blame. How a city avoided this:

    https://www.city-journal.org/montreal-affordable-housing

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    The situation is the opposite way round.

    In countries like Great Britain, quite a lot of the housing stock are these beautiful traditional English houses, which matches all our romantic images of English life. However, such housing is too expensive for a large majority of workers, who have difficulty affording the overly high prices of even modern houses (although this is balanced slightly by easy conditions for housing loans).

    In the Russian Federation, the model is for massive construction of concrete boxes, often built in empty fields with no infrastructure. Prices for small apartments though, are affordable even for average people. Unlike in Soviet times, I won't say such anthills in Russia, are something to celebrate, due to the lack of infrastructure and souless architecture. But we have to admit, the massive scale of construction, and large supply of Central Asian gastarbaiters, has allowed for modern "affordable housing" to exist under capitalism.


    But in the USSR even small cities had this problem, which is shocking.

     

    Khrushchev's introduction of mass, modern, free apartments to the population, was one of the country's greatest achievements, and experienced by millions of people like a miracle.
  278. @NazBolFren
    @Mr. Hack

    Since you don't know what sophism is let me define it for you:

    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.

    Now, with that out of the way, you have been unable to offer any counterpoint to my points - instead resorting to posting caricatures - this is indicative of someone without an argument.

    Further you continuously appeal to pathos (just like AP) and have demonstrated a disregard for logos.

    Either present a coherent position or gtfo, because you have no position like a liberal. And Russia doesn't need your liberalism. Go spread your deza elsewhere

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    soph·ism
    /ˈsäfˌizəm/
    noun
    a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.

    An accurate self-diagnosis, sophist-sovok.

  279. @AP
    @Dmitry


    If I recall correctly, AP visited Kiev in the beginning of the 1990s and was depressed by poverty and general sadness he saw
     
    Ukraine was sovereign but not yet independent, I was there in 1990 when the USSR still existed. People were actually optimistic and happy, this wasn't like 1995 or 1999.

    They were just all very poor and everything was scarce and of very shoddy quality.


    Another part of his experience, might probably be because he visited from one of the world’s most wealthy countries – America, and probably not from South Bronx.
     
    I had driven past Chicago ghettos and rural trailer parks. Obviously these were more dangerous and more littered, because people were different. But materially there was little difference.

    I was in high school, so I was often focused on silly things - crappy clothes, many women didn't shave their legs, lack of deodorant, third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole. Girls were very friendly, but unappealing if one wasn't desperate. The public shared a water glass which was disgusting (but the fact that no one stole or destroyed the glass was remarkable; no doubt North Korea is similarly disciplined). I had never experienced a car as bad as the Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car. Ukraine seems to have been richer than Poland at the time, and poor Poles were selling stuff in Kiev (they were called spekulanty).

    Wonderful experience though, due to the warmth of family reunions. And a great lesson on the economic effects of socialism.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    – crappy clothes, many women didn’t shave their legs

    Shaving habits are not really indication of economic level, except that women’s shaving is a fashion likely first popularized by capitalism in the 20th century, as being able to selli razors to women doubles your potential customer numbers. Popularizing women to buy to razors is an inevitable progression of that sector (“induced preferences”), just as popularizing men to use moisturizer or even perfume has been quite successful.

    lack of deodorant

    It doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about economic level, considering that France is one the wealthiest countries in Europe, and French people are often proud to avoid deodorant and showers, despite that they invented the word for the latter, and own a lot of the companies which produce the former.

    A funny thing I heard from colleagues who come from Northern Spain (which is poorer than France), claim that “one of the main differences when you cross the border you notice “body odour of French people”. I haven’t noticed myself.

    Since the 20th century, with most people having access to running water, showering habits are much more cultural than anything – as showering is a free or almost free activity.

    But even in 16th century Japan, people were obsessed with cleaning themselves, centuries before industrialization. And, in 21st century, ultra-wealthy France, it’s still cool to avoid showers.

    third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole

    These are not only Russian, but even more common in France. Again, France is one of the most wealthy countries in Europe.

    Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car

    On the other hand, Kiev metro would be as effective as the one in London or Paris, and had more stations than the one in the capital of the USA at that time (How many stations were open in Washington DC metro in 1990?)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Shaving habits are not really indication of economic level, except that women’s shaving is a fashion likely first popularized by capitalism in the 20th century, as being able to selli razors to women doubles your potential customer numbers.
     
    In 1990 food was rather scarce, I suspect that razors and deodorant weren't on people's minds.

    lack of deodorant

    It doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about economic level, considering that France is one the wealthiest countries in Europe, and French people are often proud to avoid deodorant and shower
     
    It does if people are not French. And I visited Paris the same summer as I did the USSR; I didn't notice stinky people there, as in the USSR.

    These are all trivial things of course, but they stand out for a high school student.

    third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole

    These are not only Russian, but even more common in France. Again, France is one of the most wealthy countries in Europe.

     

    I never saw this in Paris, but I saw it in the USSR.

    Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car

    On the other hand, Kiev metro would be as effective as the one in London or Paris, and had more stations than the one in the capital of the USA at that time (How many stations were open in Washington DC metro in 1990?)
     
    Kiev is a large city and needs a good metro. But it is ridiculous for people in small cities to be forced to rely on public transportation. In that case, public transportation is compensation for poverty, for having too many people be too poor to afford personal transportation. A blind man develops keener hearing; an impoverished society has better buses for people who can't afford cars. In both cases the subject is defective.

    From another post:

    In countries like Great Britain, quite a lot of the housing stock are these beautiful traditional English houses, which matches all our romantic images of English life. However, such housing is too expensive for a large majority of workers, who have difficulty affording the overly high prices of even modern houses (although this is balanced slightly by easy conditions for housing loans).
     
    Western Europe is small and densely populated. It is silly to compare Russia to Western Europe, and more realistic to compare it to America or Canada, places that like Russia have a lot open spaces.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  280. @AP
    @NazBolFren


    So your entire argument comes down to small apartments and cars and lack of luxuries.
     
    Scarcity of everything, and inferior quality of everything that existed. Sovok food was awful, other than bread and ice cream. Greasy sausages. Stuff like bananas weren't even available all year.
    Crappy food presented by surly waiters, slow service.

    Sovoks sold the rich Christian legacy and traditions for the sake of materialism and got awful, second-rate material well-being.

    Some apartments were small, but if you really wanted a big one, it was easy enough to trade for a larger one. My parents and grandparents did a number of such trades and ended up living in 4 bedroom apartments in Odessa.
     
    1. Trading up was not the norm and smelled of corruption (Odessa was very corrupt). Most middle-class families did not have 4 bedroom apartments. As I wrote, a couple who were university professors had a two room apartment with their two kids, and the husband's mother and grandmother. Later when he became head of his department he got a four room apartment in a nice Stalin building in a city of about a million people. But even this was rather pathetic by the standards of an established American professional.

    2. Odessa has only about a million people. In cities of that size, American or Canadian middle class people with families do not live in apartments unless they are luxury apartments with underground parking, gyms, etc. (and don't compare the USSR to Western Europe, which is small and densely populated; compare it to North America). Rather they live in their own houses where every adult and most kids over 16 have their own automobiles. So this is housing for middle class families in the Ukrainian part of Toronto (population 3 million), close to a subway:

    https://cdn.repliers.io/IMG-W4412323_1.jpg

    Very modest middle-class Chicago-area housing for families:

    https://images1.apartments.com/i2/Hxm26W0dRSOgid2fVXuPiXqwtq1o6hFb5ILukR9hgEE/117/1401-elmhurst-ln-schaumburg-il-primary-photo.jpg

    Housing project for impoverished black people in Chicago:

    https://media.npr.org/assets/news/2010/12/06/chicago-176e8cb0fb2f87289bbda3bfd2b8b4f492fa572d-s800-c85.jpg

    Which one resembles housing for middle class Soviet people?

    Cars were not needed due to a proliferation and very well developed public transport system (that is not seen in America).
     
    Moscow's and Kiev's metros are beautiful and in large cities, but living in a cramped apartment in a small city and having to rely on a bus is just sad for a non-poor family.

    This is typical shitty Soviet housing in Prpyat, a city of only 50,000 before it was abandoned:

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/5f0ca428dccbb984f7590c23bd755c62/3caf03a6d3fd2a38-2c/s500x750/f6fd9c0b02f1d74d7494f3d20d26e333fdac93a5.jpg

    Nice housing for Sovoks, a Sovok engineer could live in such a place. It resembles an American housing project.

    Oak Ridge TN is a small city with nuclear research. Here is typical middle class housing there:

    https://ap.rdcpix.com/c42a36660c3fadaad7fc683bbbffc9fal-b2096500134xd-w400_h320_q60.jpg

    People had the luxuries they needed – we had hifi stereos, radios, televisions, western movies and music, books, etc as did all of our friends
     
    Stereos, TVS, radios, movies and books - American lumpens have all of these things too (except for books, but they don't want them). Next time you see an American ghetto, note the satellite dishes. And I'll bet American lumpens' TVs and stereos were nicer than yours. Here is an American ghetto in the 1980s:

    https://www.collectorsweekly.com/uploads/2013/12/do-the-right-thing-radio-raheem-puerto-rican-music-duel1.jpg

    Everyone one of those cars driven by American underclass lumpens in the 1980s was more luxurious, larger, had more features, and was safer than Soviet Zhigulis, Moskvichys, or Volgas:

    https://i.redd.it/4przsw8s85801.jpg

    And more lumpens owned such cars than did middle-class Sovoks. And this is a ghetto in New York, which has effective public transportation.

    Replies: @NazBolFren, @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    Comparison of housing stock between America and the USSR is not very revealing, as they were solving different problems, for countries with very different situations.

    After the Stalin died, the Soviet Union was able massively increase housing for tens of millions of people, in a very short time, who had been living in terrible housing conditions before. This was solved in a very successful way using prefabricated building technology.

    In post-war America, they only build mass government housing, for poor people. There was a large existing housing stock, and the 20th century trend of new construction was determined by the automobile. This allows middle class to evacuate the cities, and buy privately constructed suburbs designed by people like William Levitt to exploit the car.

    Depending on their history, there are advanced developed countries nowadays, that have inherited residential construction that are not much more photogenic than post-Khrushchev housing stock.

    In Spain, for example, most people live in such apartments. Spain is considered one of the world’s most advanced countries, with one of the highest UN HDI rating.

    Yet even Varlamov has to admit Spaniards live in basically Russian conditions. By the way, the majority of Spanish people live in buildings like this – although apartments inside Spanish buildings are larger than Soviet ones (as well as larger than apartments in most modern Russian anthills).

    In Israel – which is a country with actually very high living standards – their 1950s housing stock is worse than the Soviet one, and the buildings are constructed with aggregate made from seashells. Israel is also an active earthquake-zone, so if you live in these buildings, you are gambling with a 1995 Neftegorsk scenario.

  281. @AP
    @Kent Nationalist

    Yes, there are pockets like that too, in Manhattan, and San Francisco.

    But in the USSR even small cities had this problem, which is shocking.

    In certain Western places this is usually caused by progressive politics so socialism is in part to blame. How a city avoided this:

    https://www.city-journal.org/montreal-affordable-housing

    Replies: @Dmitry

    The situation is the opposite way round.

    In countries like Great Britain, quite a lot of the housing stock are these beautiful traditional English houses, which matches all our romantic images of English life. However, such housing is too expensive for a large majority of workers, who have difficulty affording the overly high prices of even modern houses (although this is balanced slightly by easy conditions for housing loans).

    In the Russian Federation, the model is for massive construction of concrete boxes, often built in empty fields with no infrastructure. Prices for small apartments though, are affordable even for average people. Unlike in Soviet times, I won’t say such anthills in Russia, are something to celebrate, due to the lack of infrastructure and souless architecture. But we have to admit, the massive scale of construction, and large supply of Central Asian gastarbaiters, has allowed for modern “affordable housing” to exist under capitalism.

    But in the USSR even small cities had this problem, which is shocking.

    Khrushchev’s introduction of mass, modern, free apartments to the population, was one of the country’s greatest achievements, and experienced by millions of people like a miracle.

  282. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP


    – crappy clothes, many women didn’t shave their legs
     
    Shaving habits are not really indication of economic level, except that women's shaving is a fashion likely first popularized by capitalism in the 20th century, as being able to selli razors to women doubles your potential customer numbers. Popularizing women to buy to razors is an inevitable progression of that sector ("induced preferences"), just as popularizing men to use moisturizer or even perfume has been quite successful.

    lack of deodorant

     

    It doesn't necessarily indicate anything about economic level, considering that France is one the wealthiest countries in Europe, and French people are often proud to avoid deodorant and showers, despite that they invented the word for the latter, and own a lot of the companies which produce the former.

    A funny thing I heard from colleagues who come from Northern Spain (which is poorer than France), claim that "one of the main differences when you cross the border you notice "body odour of French people". I haven't noticed myself.

    -

    Since the 20th century, with most people having access to running water, showering habits are much more cultural than anything - as showering is a free or almost free activity.

    But even in 16th century Japan, people were obsessed with cleaning themselves, centuries before industrialization. And, in 21st century, ultra-wealthy France, it's still cool to avoid showers.


    third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole
     
    These are not only Russian, but even more common in France. Again, France is one of the most wealthy countries in Europe.

    Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car

     

    On the other hand, Kiev metro would be as effective as the one in London or Paris, and had more stations than the one in the capital of the USA at that time (How many stations were open in Washington DC metro in 1990?)

    Replies: @AP

    Shaving habits are not really indication of economic level, except that women’s shaving is a fashion likely first popularized by capitalism in the 20th century, as being able to selli razors to women doubles your potential customer numbers.

    In 1990 food was rather scarce, I suspect that razors and deodorant weren’t on people’s minds.

    lack of deodorant

    It doesn’t necessarily indicate anything about economic level, considering that France is one the wealthiest countries in Europe, and French people are often proud to avoid deodorant and shower

    It does if people are not French. And I visited Paris the same summer as I did the USSR; I didn’t notice stinky people there, as in the USSR.

    These are all trivial things of course, but they stand out for a high school student.

    third world public toilets where people had to squat and shit in a hole

    These are not only Russian, but even more common in France. Again, France is one of the most wealthy countries in Europe.

    I never saw this in Paris, but I saw it in the USSR.

    Lada and it was a luxury there, not every family had even such a bad car

    On the other hand, Kiev metro would be as effective as the one in London or Paris, and had more stations than the one in the capital of the USA at that time (How many stations were open in Washington DC metro in 1990?)

    Kiev is a large city and needs a good metro. But it is ridiculous for people in small cities to be forced to rely on public transportation. In that case, public transportation is compensation for poverty, for having too many people be too poor to afford personal transportation. A blind man develops keener hearing; an impoverished society has better buses for people who can’t afford cars. In both cases the subject is defective.

    From another post:

    In countries like Great Britain, quite a lot of the housing stock are these beautiful traditional English houses, which matches all our romantic images of English life. However, such housing is too expensive for a large majority of workers, who have difficulty affording the overly high prices of even modern houses (although this is balanced slightly by easy conditions for housing loans).

    Western Europe is small and densely populated. It is silly to compare Russia to Western Europe, and more realistic to compare it to America or Canada, places that like Russia have a lot open spaces.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    1990 food was rather scarce, I suspect that razors
     
    Point is that the fashion for women to shave, was created in the 21st century (likely in America). It's a quite recent fashion, and the motivation for it was not existing in a centrally planned economy (as it exists where there is a shaving industry with a private financial motivation to promote such a fashion).

    I visited Paris the same summer as I did the USSR; I didn’t notice stinky people
     
    There's a lot of people claiming that there was washing less and more body odour in the USSR (it is true). But there's even more common to hear this about said France today (it is also true - French really smell more).

    In either case - as I said above - it is not related to economic wealth, but cultural practices and cultural norms (e.g. 16th century Japan was not especially wealthy, yet obsessed with self-washin; 21st France is not poor, but known for avoiding showers).


    I never saw this in Paris, but I saw it in the USSR.

     

    You either have not travelled much in France, or are intelligently avoiding their toilets. I have seen this type of toilet multiple times in France and Italy.

    I have definitely seen it in Spain as well, but it is a lot less common there. However, in Spain, public toilets can be equally as disgusting as what you see in Russia. (Disgusting public toilets is likely not related to economic development or standards of living, as Spain is usually viewed as being near the top in the world in standards of living.)


    people in small cities to be forced to rely on public transportation

     

    Arguably cars have more negative, than positive, aspects - the most dangerous transport, the most polluting transport, the most energy inefficient transport, the most space inefficient transport, and the transport that destroy urban planning and city fabric.

    So, from a central planning point of view, it is a good idea to avoid them, rather than an indication of poverty.

    I honestly think that the one of the best achievements of the USSR, was avoiding the automobile. Certainly it means that hundreds of thousands of people are alive now, who would be dead if the USSR had used the American model for transportation.


    small and densely populated. It is silly to compare Russia to Western Europe

     

    Urban areas in Russia are usually more densely population than in Great Britain (this is at least my personal observation).

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AP

  283. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @AP


    small apartments. Few cars
     
    On the other hand, public transport was one of the best in the world, and only surpassed by countries like Japan or France.

    Cars are a "mixed blessing", of course, and can't be considered simplistically as a metric for living standards, or economic advancement - e.g. cars kill more people than coronavirus ever will, just by their accidents, let alone their pollution; they are energy inefficient; they distort urban planning, etc.


    trigger such a collapse. It was a manifestation of the system’s inherent inferiority

     

    Central planning has inherent epistemic inferiorities, due to lacking the price-signalling mechanism, as was explained by Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek since the 1920s. (Although probably in the future it will become possible to reduce these inferiorities, as this was partly a technological problem - for example, internet cookies now, are better than surveys were then).

    However, economic collapse of the USSR was not spontaneous result of inefficiencies in central planning. It was a result of external shock from oil price collapse, as well as deliberate deconstruction of central planning mechanisms, and deliberate deconstruction of decades of protectionism and import substitution policies, etc.

    It was a "perfect storm" of external shock conditions, at the same time as deliberate dismantling. Here is the oil price collapse in 1983.

    https://i.imgur.com/GjoZsVY.png


    1983. Wiki has 1973
     
    According to Maddison, in 1973 we (Russia) are 90% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 59% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.

    In their "multiple benchmarks $" which they recommend for cross-country income comparison, then in 1973 Russia are 90,6% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom, while Ukraine is 50,7% of real GDP per capita of the United Kingdom.


    no different in other socialist countries such as Cuba, Ethiopia, and now Venezuela

     

    In Venezuela, there is populism, with government allies controlling the main industries. It's a mixed economy. There isn't an attempt in building a centrally planned economy.

    shocked, for example, when driving past an auto plant to see all of the cars the workers drove in the parking lot
     
    American car ownership is amazing today.

    However, the fact Russia has been able to "catch up" to some extent, or massively reduce the gap, in this metric in the last 35 years, at the same time that the economic distance has only increased between the two countries - shows it's not such a useful metric.

    And in terms of quality of life, public transport might be more important - and for example, Americans are shocked when they travel by train in Japan or Europe, and a significant proportion of them prefer it; while this option has failed in America.


    were amazed by the stores, supermarkets,
     
    Gorbachev was shocked in visiting Washington DC, about how they could plan the catering system, for so many different kinds of restaurants he saw there. There was some stubborn, chauvinistic, intentional idiocy in this, trying to pretend that non-centrally planned economies didn't exist for much of human history.

    physician, factory worker, street sweeper, and engineer make about an equally low income so all can equally afford a piano teacher, who is also very poor.
     
    Piano teachers - with a curriculum - and pianos were provided by schools which had a music branch, if the child can pass music exams to qualify. So a couple of hours every day they could to the music school, and the rest of the day they are in the general school.

    This is dismantled and ruined now, so that music is mostly available for families where parent will be able to pay for a private teacher and the instruments at home.

    If you want to relate ironically it to 19th century history - Karl and Jenny Marx had to sacrifice a large part of their income, to be able to hire music teachers for their children in London. Until the USSR, formal musical education was something mostly limited to the bourgeoisie. While the USSR could provide such amenities to a wider proportion of the public, and at a higher quality level.


    poorest Negros in America. So? And you will notice there are many cars in housing projects or trailer parks
     
    I know we are on bit of a weirdly race-obsessed forum, but why do you expect I will be surprised by the consumer possessions of African Americans.

    African Americans have better consumer possessions, than half of people in Europe. Their economic problems relate to unaffordable healthcare and education. In addition: extremely high rates of imprisonment and a recent, depressing decline in cultural contributions (when last century they had added more to music than many whole countries in Europe).

    Replies: @AP, @AP, @songbird

    small apartments. Few cars

    On the other hand, public transport was one of the best in the world

    A blind man develops keen hearing. A society too poor to provide personal transportation for its citizens develops better public transportation. These are compensations for defects, nothing to brag about.

    and only surpassed by countries like Japan or France

    Japan is very small and densely populated. Excellent mass transportation is normal for such a place. As for a huge sparsely populated country like Russia – see my comment above. It’s a symptom of severe dysfunction.

    However, economic collapse of the USSR was not spontaneous result of inefficiencies in central planning. It was a result of external shock from oil price collapse, as well as deliberate deconstruction of central planning mechanisms, and deliberate deconstruction of decades of protectionism and import substitution policies, etc.

    So an element of Venezuela, of course.

    American car ownership is amazing today.

    However, the fact Russia has been able to “catch up” to some extent, or massively reduce the gap, in this metric in the last 35 years, at the same time that the economic distance has only increased between the two countries – shows it’s not such a useful metric.

    Russia has reduced the gap because America was and is at the normal maximum (nearly every adult owns a car) so there has not been much room for additional cars per person. But the impoverished Soviet Union had a shortage of cars, as for everything else, so now as Russians become wealthier they are catching up while Americans stay in place with respect to this item.

    And in terms of quality of life, public transport might be more important – and for example, Americans are shocked when they travel by train in Japan or Europe, and a significant proportion of them prefer it; while this option has failed in America.

    Japan and Europe are very densely populated. Mass transit makes sense there. Outside major US metro areas it does not in the USA. It is for poor people who can’t afford cars, and there aren’t enough of them to support an extensive network. In the USSR, everyone was poor so an extensive network of public transportation was necessary.

    Most of my friends in Moscow have cars and drive them to work, but I would’t want one there, to deal with frustrating slow traffic (except to go to the dacha). OTOH, in a smaller city one can drive to work in a few minutes, drive to friends’ houses, got to stores without carrying stuff around. No dependence on schedules, routes, minimal exposure to bad weather, and much faster.

    So in a small or medium-sized North American city a schoolteacher married to a nurse (two middle-class people, not upper middle class or rich) would have their own house and yard, with separate bedrooms for each kid, two cars, perhaps their own private swimming pool (above ground, which is cheaper). My Soviet uncle and aunt were teachers in a small oblast capital in Ukraine. They and their two kids had a two room apartment with no elevator. No cars, they got around on buses like poor people. Aunt’s brother had a Zhiguli which was such a bad car it was funny. I guess they could have piano lessons for their kids.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    poor to provide personal transportation for its citizens develops better public transportation
     
    From a rational perspective, public transport is more desirable, than the particular kind of personal transportation (automobile) that you refer to, in which the disadvantages seem far greater than the advantages. An intelligent society should promote public transport, and try to minimize use of the automobile.

    On the other hand, if you were writing about a personal transportation where the advantages are greater than the disadvantages (i.e. the bicycle), then Soviet cities have indeed failed in comparison to places where bicycle is the main transport - i.e. Oxford, Cambridge, Amsterdam.

    ^ Note that the bicycle is the main transport in some of the most intelligent and civilized cities.

    -

    It's sad because I thought the one advantage of America's addiction to automobiles, would be in mitigating the spread of infectious diseases. But it seems to be a not decisive factor from a current situation.


    Japan is very small and densely populated

     

    Cities in Russia are densely populated, and more similar in this respect to Japanese cities, than to certain American ones which have been designed around the automobile.

    element of Venezuela,
     
    Venezuela's economic system is a "state capitalist" system - more similar to the Russian Federation - than to the centrally planned USSR. The difference is that in Russia today, there is an extremely competent and conservative financial management (although the economic management is not competent by comparison), while in Venezuela it is the opposite, and they were throwing petrodollars at citizens in exchange for political support.

    I'm not to advocate for a use of central planning (see arguments of Ludwig von Mises/Friedrich Hayek). But Venezuela is neither a very good counter-example to it.


    Russia has reduced the gap because America was and is at the normal maximum
     
    Again, cars are not the most sensible transport solution. They are the most energy inefficient transport, the most dangerous, the most polluting, the most space inefficient,