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I have written that Moscow – not to mention the rest of Russia – remains an overwhelmingly (that is, 85%-90% Slavic) megapolis.

I don’t see the need to reiterate something that only remains an obsession for a few liberal racists masquerading as Russian nationalists, wishful Ukrainian svidomy, and the sprinkling of /pol/tards who take them seriously.

That said, over the past few years since I’ve covered that topic, I have further pinpointed my views on precisely what will happen.

First, I no longer think there is a substantial Central Asia demographic “threat.” Yes, on paper, the number of births in Central Asia has converged with Russia’s. And almost uniquely amongst countries that keep adequate demographic tallies, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have seen an increase in fertility rates over the past 5 years (from 2.7 to 3.1 and from 2.5 to 2.9, respectively) while Kyrgyzstan has dropped but only modest from 3.2 to 3.0.

However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.

See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%. This is down from 43.4% in 1991, whereas Russia’s number is an increase from 13.9% during that same year.

This is a cardinal change. What this means is that over the past generation, Uzbeks have transitioned from the multiple children model of traditional societies, to one where 1 or 2 children is the norm. Fertility is currently very high by developed world standards because many couples are now having that first or second child. But once that process finishes up, as it imminently will – and assuming there is no reversal of this trend – then TFR should begin to plummet.

As it indeed has in Azerbaijan over the past few years. Aliyev picked a good moment to finish up business with Armenia.

Meanwhile, the process of demographic transition in Russia bottomed out over the past century, and the only way is up, increasingly driven by the emergence of “breeder” groups such as Orthodox priests and possibly some religious rural communities in the Far North. Nowhere near the scale it’s already at in Israel, of course, but certainly one can make out resemblances to Bible Belt communities in the Netherlands or the Laestadians in Finland.

Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

Separate but adjacent is the immigration question. Although many Central Asians come as Gastarbeiters to Russia, it seems that few of them are getting Russian citizenship. The Interior Ministry maintains statistics on this. Whereas there were 3.5M Uzbeks, 0.8M Kyrgyz, and 0.4M Kazakhstan with an immigration status in Russia in 2020, only 23,000, 12,000, and 43,000 of them, respectively, got Russian citizenship. The fact that Kazakhs got the most citizenships clearly reflects the fact that it’s still mostly ethnic Russian (other Slavic/German/Korean) returnees who must be acquiring them.

The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians, who have a huge diaspora and of whom 30,000 got citizenship in 2020.

PREDICTION: Consequently, I foresee the emergence of a ~1M strong Tajik diaspora within Russia over the next 20-30 years, or a quintupling of the 200,000 Tajiks in Russia fixed during the 2010 Census. They might even overtake Uzbeks, of whom there were 290,000 and who will probably double or triple.

Is this a big issue? I suppose if you’re trying to maximize for “white” ethnic purity, I suppose it is. Russia will become marginally more “Asiatic” and svidomy can crow about it. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is. So far as daily life is concerned, I don’t see there being a big difference. Central Asians are, in socio-demographic terms, much like Latinos in the US – lower IQ and more blue-collar than the natives, but much less of a criminological or ethnic nepotism problem than Caucasians. Georgians constitute an outright majority of the so-called “Russian” mafia authorities, i.e. vory v zakone, whereas Uzbeks are – if anything – underrepresented.

If fairly rapid convergence to developed world status resumes after the post-2014 interlude – as I for various reasons expect it will – then possibly immigration pressures from Central Asia intensify. (Paradoxically, visa restrictions may actually hasten that, because they’d give an incentive for Gastarbeiters to legalize their status; commenter German_reader once explained that this is what happened to Turks in Germany from the 1970s). OTOH, from various conversations, my anecdotal impression is that most Kyrgyz Gastarbeiters (taxi drivers) don’t plan on remaining in Russia indefinitely. More typical is a desire to make money and start a business back home. Also, sub-TFR=1 South Korea has been drawing more and more Central Asian Gastarbeiters since 2015, which is also something I picked up in conversations and is confirmed by statistics. With China now showing advance signs of plummeting to “lowest low” fertility levels like South Korea, we may well see the main focus of Central Asian emigration switch to China from 2040.

There were some other interesting observations from the Interior Ministry immigration statistics.

410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.

Hopefully it also reflects at least in part my proposed “31 Steps for the Ukraine” program.

There’s very few Blacks becoming citizens, e.g. 49 Nigerians. 1 Somali. I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia. There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone. Certainly the Indians, the Chinese, Central Asians are much friendlier and speak in Russia (or at least make an effort to). So yes, perhaps even 49 is too much. But you’ll see 5 times as many in Warsaw.

Just 68 Indians. Surprising, given the long history of communion between Russian and Indian culture (Afanasy Nikitin, Russia’s Marco Polo, went to India). It is Poland that is becoming East Europe’s subcon central, them already being quite visible (~1%) on Warsaw’s streets. Would probably sooner have Indians than Tajiks if I had to choose (better cuisine), but whatever.

810 Syrians, and a few hundred other Arabs. There’ll probably eventually be a modest-sized Christian Arab diaspora.

148 Americans. It’s good to have a bolthole these days. Especially since as of 2020 you no longer even have to give up your US citizenship to get a Russian one.

***

* In general, I don’t endorse all of his analysis – but he certainly has a knack for digging up interesting data.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

    • Replies: @FerW
    @Anatoly Karlin


    410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.
     
    What do you mean? Perhaps you wanted to write "unnecessary"? Presumably a big majority of those new citizens are ethnically- and fealty-wise very close to Russians already, not the less from the LDNR area, as you seem to notice by bringing up that "passport-giving program". With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to "storm" it.

    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.
     
    Disrespectful.

    I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia.
     
    Hm. I feel a sudden need to learn Russian...

    Replies: @AP

  2. There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    I do hope you replied with the same question

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @songbird
    @(((They))) Live


    When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.
     
    Pretty much sums up my experience in America.
    , @Mr. XYZ
    @(((They))) Live

    I'd respond that I'm here for some of that sweet, sweet thicc ebony booty! :D Rawr! ;)

  3. @(((They))) Live
    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.


    I do hope you replied with the same question

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ

    When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Pretty much sums up my experience in America.

  4. The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.

    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    “Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance.”

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    [MORE]

    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Pictures that you have posted are probably of highlander Tadjik Pamiri ethnic groups, not the lowlands Tadjiks.



    You are correct about the Tadjiks being Aryan. They are descendants of the Sogdians who were prior to the Islamisation of the Khorasan the commercial elite of Central Asia for quite a long time. That is why the Syriac-derived Sogdian script was the alphabet of interethnic communication of the Central Asian peoples before they mainly adopted Arabic script.

    The highlander Tadjiks (Pamiris) were mainly Zoroastrian and have now become Ismaili, while the lowlands Tadjiks were often Buddhist and have now become Sunnis. Greater Tadjikistan includes Ferghana valley and the ancient urban centers of Khorassan; Bukhara, Samarkand etc.

    On a personal note, I wish I could one day visit this place:

    https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media.archnet.org/system/media_contents/contents/91079/medium/IAA103974.jpg?1402394206

    A truly great man once lived there.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Not Raul

    , @reiner Tor
    @Blinky Bill

    Probably the average Tajik looks way worse, but these are certainly good looking people.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    , @sher singh
    @Blinky Bill

    Taaj is Crown ye why I never thought of this? Lel.

    Re: Samarkand being a Tajik city, Babur looked Mongol tho.

    I guess we use Dastaar for Crown more, never thought to call someone a Tajik.

    We'd say Taja-wala?

    Or rather chieftan is just Sardar, colloquially any Turban wearing Sikh male.

    :shrug:

    They're cool ppl, I like Ahmed Shah Massoud ultimately those lands belong to Khalsa not Rus. ;)

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Blinky Bill

    The only Central Asians I have ever met were Uzbeks. I found their appearance extremely unsettling.

    , @Vishnugupta
    @Blinky Bill

    The Tajik language is indeed a pure form of Farsi.However the overwhelming mongol/turkish genetic admixture among Tajiks today is fairly obvious.

    The Tajikis of today are genetically very different from the people who produced Ferdowsi.

    On top of that comrade Stalin arbitrarily classified Uzbek living in Tajikistan as Tajiks and vice versa Samarkand in Uzbekistan has long been considered a persian speaking city and lots of 'Uzbeks' in that region today are in fact Tajiks.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  5. With China now showing advance signs of plummeting to “lowest low” fertility levels like South Korea, we may well see the main focus of Central Asian emigration switch to China from 2040.

    The only Central Asians that will ever be permitted to immigrate to China are the Dungan, Дунгане Insha’Allah.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_people

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    They should indeed have a right of return. Their life is becoming complicated in Central Asia.

  6. …Just 68 Indians.

    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don’t succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy – so they are about to escalate…

    • Replies: @AlexanderGrozny
    @Beckow

    Most Indians in Poland are students and such, not people coming to build a live or settle down in the country.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @utu

    , @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    , @songbird
    @Beckow

    Perhaps, they could get the 68 to return and thus draw the millions in the rest of Europe eventually back to India?

    , @Servant of Gla'aki
    @Beckow

    The plague has been endemic to the Sierra Nevada of Northern California for 150 years. My parents contracted it in the 1970s, while we were camping. It is quite rare, however.

  7. @Blinky Bill

    The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.
     
    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    "Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance."

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNVYla0ty6wZLm8VdRcE3_tofGNJ3gyzZp4w&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzbRHGdUCExHz5Px9D_VpxVugWS-Zzl9AyLA&usqp.jpg

    https://www.kamerabild.se/sites/kamerabild.se/files/styles/article_image/public/Namnlo%CC%88s1_1.jpg


    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor, @sher singh, @Kent Nationalist, @Vishnugupta

    Pictures that you have posted are probably of highlander Tadjik Pamiri ethnic groups, not the lowlands Tadjiks.

    [MORE]

    You are correct about the Tadjiks being Aryan. They are descendants of the Sogdians who were prior to the Islamisation of the Khorasan the commercial elite of Central Asia for quite a long time. That is why the Syriac-derived Sogdian script was the alphabet of interethnic communication of the Central Asian peoples before they mainly adopted Arabic script.

    The highlander Tadjiks (Pamiris) were mainly Zoroastrian and have now become Ismaili, while the lowlands Tadjiks were often Buddhist and have now become Sunnis. Greater Tadjikistan includes Ferghana valley and the ancient urban centers of Khorassan; Bukhara, Samarkand etc.

    On a personal note, I wish I could one day visit this place:

    A truly great man once lived there.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Bashibuzuk



    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBevOBwZnEi1hZpucTtN_dNmh5t-6FpS6XXA&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Not Raul
    @Bashibuzuk

    Why would highlanders be more light than lowlanders?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  8. @Blinky Bill

    With China now showing advance signs of plummeting to “lowest low” fertility levels like South Korea, we may well see the main focus of Central Asian emigration switch to China from 2040.
     
    The only Central Asians that will ever be permitted to immigrate to China are the Dungan, Дунгане Insha'Allah.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_people

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    They should indeed have a right of return. Their life is becoming complicated in Central Asia.

  9. It is nice to see Russians visit other European cities in their TV shows because they never seem to be filled with blacks and Muslims, whereas on the BBC, if they go to 1800s London, it is filled to the brim with blacks and Pakis. (I take it that they are using Russian streets as stand-ins) Though, given that I can almost count the minutes of Russian entertainment that I’ve consumed on my fingers, I am somewhat alarmed by how many black thugs they seem to have – not that there is anything wrong with that – but more along the lines, I’m wondering where they get the actors, and that I find it alarming that they can get them so easily.

    Meanwhile, I think it would be pretty easy to convert a lot of Korean romantic dramas into shows with pro-natalist and pro-nationalist messages. They could still export them too – it would just require small cuts.

  10. @Blinky Bill

    The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.
     
    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    "Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance."

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNVYla0ty6wZLm8VdRcE3_tofGNJ3gyzZp4w&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzbRHGdUCExHz5Px9D_VpxVugWS-Zzl9AyLA&usqp.jpg

    https://www.kamerabild.se/sites/kamerabild.se/files/styles/article_image/public/Namnlo%CC%88s1_1.jpg


    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor, @sher singh, @Kent Nationalist, @Vishnugupta

    Probably the average Tajik looks way worse, but these are certainly good looking people.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, Not Raul
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @reiner Tor

    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks. There was a very pretty and good-natured Tajik girl in the village where I used to live. Her parents arranged a marriage and packed her back off to Tajikistan, since they were afraid she'd get ruined in Russia.

    Replies: @AP

  11. few liberal racists masquerading as Russian nationalists

    Prosvirnin and Co?

    I thought you had a better opinion of them.

    • Disagree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Bashibuzuk

    I am speaking of the self-identifying Russian nationalists (Yuneman & Co.) stupid enough to go out for Navalny while Simonyan goes to Donbass.

    A self-own of truly epic proportions, but one that Prosvirnin happily avoided.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  12. @Blinky Bill

    The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.
     
    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    "Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance."

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNVYla0ty6wZLm8VdRcE3_tofGNJ3gyzZp4w&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzbRHGdUCExHz5Px9D_VpxVugWS-Zzl9AyLA&usqp.jpg

    https://www.kamerabild.se/sites/kamerabild.se/files/styles/article_image/public/Namnlo%CC%88s1_1.jpg


    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor, @sher singh, @Kent Nationalist, @Vishnugupta

    Taaj is Crown ye why I never thought of this? Lel.

    Re: Samarkand being a Tajik city, Babur looked Mongol tho.

    I guess we use Dastaar for Crown more, never thought to call someone a Tajik.

    We’d say Taja-wala?

    Or rather chieftan is just Sardar, colloquially any Turban wearing Sikh male.

    :shrug:

    They’re cool ppl, I like Ahmed Shah Massoud ultimately those lands belong to Khalsa not Rus. 😉

  13. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Pictures that you have posted are probably of highlander Tadjik Pamiri ethnic groups, not the lowlands Tadjiks.



    You are correct about the Tadjiks being Aryan. They are descendants of the Sogdians who were prior to the Islamisation of the Khorasan the commercial elite of Central Asia for quite a long time. That is why the Syriac-derived Sogdian script was the alphabet of interethnic communication of the Central Asian peoples before they mainly adopted Arabic script.

    The highlander Tadjiks (Pamiris) were mainly Zoroastrian and have now become Ismaili, while the lowlands Tadjiks were often Buddhist and have now become Sunnis. Greater Tadjikistan includes Ferghana valley and the ancient urban centers of Khorassan; Bukhara, Samarkand etc.

    On a personal note, I wish I could one day visit this place:

    https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media.archnet.org/system/media_contents/contents/91079/medium/IAA103974.jpg?1402394206

    A truly great man once lived there.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Not Raul

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill


    The dreamers banquets cannot profit him; only the waking know the taste of gain and loss.
     


    https://youtu.be/s-7fcSsJhF0
  14. @Bashibuzuk

    few liberal racists masquerading as Russian nationalists
     
    Prosvirnin and Co?

    I thought you had a better opinion of them.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I am speaking of the self-identifying Russian nationalists (Yuneman & Co.) stupid enough to go out for Navalny while Simonyan goes to Donbass.

    A self-own of truly epic proportions, but one that Prosvirnin happily avoided.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Yuneman
     
    Never heard of him.

    Regarding Prosvirnin and Co. : Egor is certainly a racist and he and his group have clearly a very low opinion of Central Asians.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/news/73537/brat-na-brata/

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/digest/37/24.php

    But he is not a reactionary when he discusses other social topics.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/society/78431/sex-hiv/#.YDbgD2mu8zQ

    IMO they fit the description liberal racists that strongly dislike the presence of Central Asian migrant population on Russian soil.

    In general all Russian nationalists I have ever met would have prefered Central Asians going back home. Same for DICh people. They usually have no problem with Tatars and Bashkirs though, although some WP Neonazi types hated all non-Slavic ethnic groups.

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster

  15. @Blinky Bill

    The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.
     
    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    "Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance."

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNVYla0ty6wZLm8VdRcE3_tofGNJ3gyzZp4w&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzbRHGdUCExHz5Px9D_VpxVugWS-Zzl9AyLA&usqp.jpg

    https://www.kamerabild.se/sites/kamerabild.se/files/styles/article_image/public/Namnlo%CC%88s1_1.jpg


    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor, @sher singh, @Kent Nationalist, @Vishnugupta

    The only Central Asians I have ever met were Uzbeks. I found their appearance extremely unsettling.

    • Agree: silviosilver
    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  16. @Blinky Bill
    @Bashibuzuk



    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBevOBwZnEi1hZpucTtN_dNmh5t-6FpS6XXA&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    The dreamers banquets cannot profit him; only the waking know the taste of gain and loss.

    [MORE]

  17. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Bashibuzuk

    I am speaking of the self-identifying Russian nationalists (Yuneman & Co.) stupid enough to go out for Navalny while Simonyan goes to Donbass.

    A self-own of truly epic proportions, but one that Prosvirnin happily avoided.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Yuneman

    Never heard of him.

    Regarding Prosvirnin and Co. : Egor is certainly a racist and he and his group have clearly a very low opinion of Central Asians.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/news/73537/brat-na-brata/

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/digest/37/24.php

    But he is not a reactionary when he discusses other social topics.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/society/78431/sex-hiv/#.YDbgD2mu8zQ

    IMO they fit the description liberal racists that strongly dislike the presence of Central Asian migrant population on Russian soil.

    In general all Russian nationalists I have ever met would have prefered Central Asians going back home. Same for DICh people. They usually have no problem with Tatars and Bashkirs though, although some WP Neonazi types hated all non-Slavic ethnic groups.

    • Replies: @4Dchessmaster
    @Bashibuzuk

    What do they think of Crimean Tatars?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  18. I remember some guy told me that Chechens and Armenians are usually on friendly terms in Russia proper, compared to the situation in the Caucasus. Is this true?

  19. @Bashibuzuk
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Yuneman
     
    Never heard of him.

    Regarding Prosvirnin and Co. : Egor is certainly a racist and he and his group have clearly a very low opinion of Central Asians.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/news/73537/brat-na-brata/

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/digest/37/24.php

    But he is not a reactionary when he discusses other social topics.

    https://sputnikipogrom.com/society/78431/sex-hiv/#.YDbgD2mu8zQ

    IMO they fit the description liberal racists that strongly dislike the presence of Central Asian migrant population on Russian soil.

    In general all Russian nationalists I have ever met would have prefered Central Asians going back home. Same for DICh people. They usually have no problem with Tatars and Bashkirs though, although some WP Neonazi types hated all non-Slavic ethnic groups.

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster

    What do they think of Crimean Tatars?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @4Dchessmaster

    Frankly I have no idea what people think of them, except that they are really different from the Volga Tatars. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them, but it was an internal Ukrainian problem when I still lived in Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @melanf

  20. Despite not having lockdowns or quarantines in Japan, the country had negative excess deaths for 2020.

    A country didn’t need lockdowns or quarantines, if a sufficient majority of a country’s population would actually follow the anti-epidemic hygiene protocols, or behave like mature people in relation to the pandemic (wear masks, wash hands, social distance, etc).

    TOKYO Feb. 24, 2021 — Deaths in Japan fell last year for the first time in more than a decade, a jarring contrast to the huge death tolls suffered by many countries in the pandemic and a signal that Japan’s coronavirus measures have had positive spillover effects. The Health Ministry reported this week that deaths in Japan had dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million. The decrease — seven-tenths of 1 percent from the year before — was a surprising turnabout for a nation with the oldest population in the world.

    The most recent Japanese government data does not break down mortality by category, so it is difficult to say with certainty what caused the decrease in deaths. But data from earlier in the year suggests that it was spurred in large part by a drastic decline in respiratory illnesses, a likely side effect of the country’s almost ubiquitous adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/world/asia/japan-deaths.html

    • Thanks: utu
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Dmitry

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/japanese-supremacism/

    , @utu
    @Dmitry

    Norway had 0.4% mortality drop in 2020.

    https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2021-02-19/svenska-dodstal-bland-europas-lagre
    Liechtenstein: 20,8%
    Spanien: 18,9%
    Polen: 18,7%
    Slovenien: 18,5%
    Italien: 17,4%
    Belgien: 16,7%
    Tjeckien: 16,6%

    Bulgarien: 15,1%
    Storbritannien: 15,1%
    Schweiz: 13,0%
    Malta: 12,6%
    Litauen: 12,3%
    Nederländerna: 11,6%
    Rumänien: 11,1%
    Österrike: 11,1%
    Portugal: 11,0%
    Slovakien: 10,5%
    Luxemburg: 10,4%
    Frankrike: 10,4%
    Cypern: 9,2%
    Kroatien: 9,1%
    Ungern: 8,1%
    Sverige: 7,6%
    Grekland: 7,5%
    Tyskland: 5,3%
    Estland: 3,1%
    Finland: 2,7%
    Island: 1,6%
    Danmark: 1,6%
    Lettland: 0,4%
    Norge: -0,4%

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Unfair to compare Japan to the other white countries. Most of them have alot more foreign workers by proportion or tourists than Japan does. The majority of the countries that send workers and/or tourists to Japan, are in that region of the world and had early dated, reciprocally tough air travel arrangements because of the pandemic ( or always have prohibitively tough quarantine regulations like Australia)

    In Russia we have probably a million plus each of Gruzians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Armenians, Azeris, alot of Tajiks, probably a million+ from the North Caucasus who live outside that region (and who are not exactly renowned for social distancing) - in addition to that we have many of those countries,particularly from Central Asia, effectively locking in their citizens in Russia when the pandemic started.

    We have obviously performed the best of any country on the planet. Proportionately less deaths from coronavirus than all the other important white countries despite these masses of visitors and the very large outbound foreign tourism we do....with an economic performance much less worse than most other countries ( despite Oil price being low and gas demand from Europe being low for over half the year)

    "Excess deaths" are just foreign retard media disinformation. There was an increase in 2014 that wasn't symptomatic of anything, other countries aren't specific if theirs are deaths in hospital or total deaths.
    just like we are in period of low birth rates from demographic collapse in 1990s -we should be in period of higher deaths rates now from post-war population increase, equalisation of men:women demographic during this period and it overlapping with current male life expectancy.
    Also we have very high testing rate and well provided for coronavirus bed capacity in hospitals compared to most other countries and the most obvious financial incentives for medics and hospitals to inflate coronavirus numbers because increased pay is very appealing.
    The only thing possibly could be Russians just wanting to shake-off this virus and self-treat.......but I don't think this has happened for these "excess deaths"

    In summary - uniformal pattern of other white countries excess death pattern being changed by marge numbers last year indicates something serious.for Russia it doesn't because of the various demographic issues .

  21. AK: However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.

    Sorry, but this is empty talking.

    First – there is no source for data on Uzbekistan. I would need something more serious than bla bla bla on someone’s blog.

    Second – i told you guys (Karlin and his” blogger”) that you are poor at math.

    See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%.

    No, the percentage of women who have a third child is not bigger in Russia.

    Do you know why? Because Karlin and his “blogger” failed to understand that childless women should be included in stats too. Not just those who gave birth.

    Thus if you have 5 % of childless women in Uzbekistan and 25 % in Russia, you end up with a share of women having a third + child being 22,4 % of all women in Uzbekistan and 19 % of all women in Russia.

    Second, the decline in the third + children was compensated by a decrease in childless women in Uzbekistan (see the big spike in first child). Thus there was no drop in TFR.

    Third, TFR in Uzbekistan increased in 2020 again even though 3 + dropped one year before. In other words, there is no effect from these fluctuations.

    So Karlin made something out of nothing. It does not matter how many have a third child as long as the overall TFR is high. In this case, a decrease in the 3 + was compensated by overall decrease in childless people in the population.

    So most of Karlin’s post is pretty much useless.

    Otherwise i like his blog.

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    Man, this guy is trolling to get more comments, reaction and infighting on his blog. : )

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @AlexanderGrozny
    @Passer by

    Nowhere near 25% of Russian women are childless.

    Replies: @Passer by

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    <10% of Russian women have not had children according to estimated of completed fertility through to the present day, so unless that veers sharply upwards, that is not going to be a major issue.

    The traditional big problem of Russian demographics, as is well known, is not that there are many Russian women without children (as happens in, say, Germany, where it's around 25% IIRC), but that many stop at 1 or at most 2.

    EDIT: Here is a nice graphic to illustrate the point:

    https://www.economist.com/img/b/608/739/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20170729_IRC244.png

    Replies: @Passer by

  22. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Pictures that you have posted are probably of highlander Tadjik Pamiri ethnic groups, not the lowlands Tadjiks.



    You are correct about the Tadjiks being Aryan. They are descendants of the Sogdians who were prior to the Islamisation of the Khorasan the commercial elite of Central Asia for quite a long time. That is why the Syriac-derived Sogdian script was the alphabet of interethnic communication of the Central Asian peoples before they mainly adopted Arabic script.

    The highlander Tadjiks (Pamiris) were mainly Zoroastrian and have now become Ismaili, while the lowlands Tadjiks were often Buddhist and have now become Sunnis. Greater Tadjikistan includes Ferghana valley and the ancient urban centers of Khorassan; Bukhara, Samarkand etc.

    On a personal note, I wish I could one day visit this place:

    https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media.archnet.org/system/media_contents/contents/91079/medium/IAA103974.jpg?1402394206

    A truly great man once lived there.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Not Raul

    Why would highlanders be more light than lowlanders?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Not Raul

    Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8a/63/ed8a633ef4ae2177260e73128a873980.jpg

    Replies: @Marshal Marlow, @Hyperborean, @AltanBakshi

  23. @4Dchessmaster
    @Bashibuzuk

    What do they think of Crimean Tatars?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Frankly I have no idea what people think of them, except that they are really different from the Volga Tatars. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them, but it was an internal Ukrainian problem when I still lived in Russia.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @melanf
    @Bashibuzuk


    I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them
     
    From what I have seen and heard in Crimea (this January), there is no big problem with the Crimean Tatars

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  24. @Not Raul
    @Bashibuzuk

    Why would highlanders be more light than lowlanders?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.

    [MORE]

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    • Thanks: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Marshal Marlow
    @Bashibuzuk

    I get the sense that these beautiful people are on the verge of extinction.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

    , @Hyperborean
    @Bashibuzuk

    I just realised this girl looks remarkably like the Alyonka chocolate girl:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg


    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8NUAAOSw~bVeTBfl/s-l640.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    You are now doing quite much cherry picking with your Kalash photos, children are almost everywhere fairer than adult folks.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57125c2c2b8dde54a34b537f/1555842258162-FUNX8XGYY0IHFP3KUGZ4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFTEgwhRQcX9r3XtU0e50sUUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcW7uEhC96WQdj-SwE5EpM0lAopPba9ZX3O0oeNTVSRxdHAmtcci_6bmVLoSDQq_pb/maxresdefault.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/y39msuZBzIsN-nKGp63lAk2t87b9j36kY-759-CnWl6KwXVKZKekIdyANIMFAkwqRSUDH9hZQAumlYywQD_qUWfXoGn4pCE370okPjUR5QTFM_8WYw

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/49/6b/66496b50dbfa691984d4b68aaf84bf4e.jpg

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    By the way I found again one good proof for the Aryanness of the historical Buddha. Two first laymen to convert to Buddhism were two merchants from Bactria, named Trapusa and Bhallika, in those times Aryan Scythians/Saka inhabited that once famous land. I think it tells something that the first men who came to Buddhism were from Bactria, or maybe its just a coincidence, but my intuition says otherwise.

    Anyway there are no pure, or even mostly pure Aryans left, but their genes have spread wide and far, and it can be said that Punjabis and some Russian people have around ~40% their heritage from the ancient Aryans.

    Buddha's people the Shakyas were pure Aryans, and they guarded ferociously the purity of their bloodline from mingling with those who they saw lesser than themselves(almost everybody else, lol), but, alas, all Shakyans perished in battle against the army of kingdom of Kosala, only those men survived who had become mendicants in Buddha's monastic order. Still what happened to their women? This is my speculation, but I think that they burned themselves in mass Jauhar, after all they were famous for their pride. Such women would have chosen burning over desecration, and such cases of Ksathriya women burning themselves after the defeat and slaughter of their men in battle, have been recorded multiple times in history.

    There's nothing more Aryan than willingly perishing in flames! So please people remember that in the struggle against the great Satan of our times! What else a nuclear war would be but one great and radiant Jauhar! I'm of course writing metaphorically, so don't take me too seriously...

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

  25. If there is drop in 3+ child group that could mater still in the long run. Even if there are less childless women (are there really that many before) because the 1-2 child becomes a cultural norm.
    I hope Karlin prediction are right about this and that would be huge, comparable to 2008 (or something) prediction about Russian demographic revival.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Aly

    Yes, but the spike in women who had a first child (and second child) increases the probability that more women will have a second or third child simply because the base suddenly got larger.

    What is important is that birth rate per 1000 per anum is rising. Btw the 3 % was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017, its just that the 1+ spiked, changing the percentage.

    The US had a baby boom in the 50s with similar data to today's Uzbekistan, that is - median age and birth rate per 1000.

    So UZB is doing pretty well, in real time.

    Replies: @Passer by

    , @Dmitry
    @Aly


    Russian demographic revival.
     
    There isn't exactly "demographic revival", rather it seems likely the completed fertility rate will have been almost quite surprisingly constant for almost 30 years, with changes in timing (and a lot of journalists' excitement in either direction, which sells newspapers at the time).

    It might probably finish being something like this (drawing is not real data).
    https://i.imgur.com/GCKqeL2.jpg

  26. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is.

    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Uzbekistan isn’t listed there, but I doubt it is that close to Azerbaijan.

    Adjusted for cost of living, Ukraine exceeds all of those plus Moldova and Albania. Ukraine and Armenian data are from December 2020, the others from early 2020.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Other data I've Googled suggests Belarus remains modestly ahead of Ukraine in 2020 in average salaries, its political problems regardless. Regardless, wider point is that being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters - so svidomy crowing about Moskvabad etc. that one often encounters should be viewed in light of that fact.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):
     
    LOL - so the demented fantasist wacko who knows nothing about Ukraine, has never been to it, can't speak the language and whose posts and any of these issues confirm my statement when you are subjected to ANY scrutiny on this retarded behaviour ( LMAO on mir/svet which is as disturbing as it is funny and numerous other shameful things).....is lying again to make obviously false comments. Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan . However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do will not change those facts........or even all of Ukropia outside of Kiev being a disaster in wages compared to even the poorest parts of Ingushettia. No sane person thinks Belarus wage is anything else except multiple times more than Ukropia. Gruzia and Armenia also much better ( which anybody 30 years before would have considered an insane idea)

    As I have probably said several times to a dimwit like you.........apart from wages falling ,massively after evromaidan and being disaster to live on- the fake "increase" outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities, contains "small lying" in the form of the pension age increase occurring at the same time as massive youth unemployment and exodus from the country....which artificially "increases" the wage from figures that nobody in Ukraine seems to have heard of and poverty becomes even more gigantic. Young people starting on the lower wages are not there, and the older people working on because of the necessity are retained on their "higher" wages instead of being sent onto their pitiful pensions.

    As an example - In Russia in the last year wages on average raised for the first time over 50000 roubles (52000 from 47000 in 2019) after inflation that is a raise in real income of 2.5%. Now for a dishonest and immensely thick cretin as yourself it may be too difficult to understand that these numbers are not the indicator of Russian GDP contradicting logic and growing during a worldwide recession........but obviously a fact that a few million more people have become unemployed and the wage per capita ( those in employment) figure increases.

    Any more fantasies? I'm still almost injured from laughter at "traditional Galician culture " video.

    Replies: @AP

  27. @Bashibuzuk
    @4Dchessmaster

    Frankly I have no idea what people think of them, except that they are really different from the Volga Tatars. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them, but it was an internal Ukrainian problem when I still lived in Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @melanf

    Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.
     
    The current Crimean Tatars are strongly mixed with the population of Central Asia. As far as I know, some of the Crimean Tatars are actually Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, etc. who declared themselves Crimean Tatars in order to move to the Crimea

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEF5G0sVEAIVVTY.jpg
  28. @Aly
    If there is drop in 3+ child group that could mater still in the long run. Even if there are less childless women (are there really that many before) because the 1-2 child becomes a cultural norm.
    I hope Karlin prediction are right about this and that would be huge, comparable to 2008 (or something) prediction about Russian demographic revival.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry

    Yes, but the spike in women who had a first child (and second child) increases the probability that more women will have a second or third child simply because the base suddenly got larger.

    What is important is that birth rate per 1000 per anum is rising. Btw the 3 % was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017, its just that the 1+ spiked, changing the percentage.

    The US had a baby boom in the 50s with similar data to today’s Uzbekistan, that is – median age and birth rate per 1000.

    So UZB is doing pretty well, in real time.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Passer by


    Btw the 3 + was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017
     
    Read than 2017 or 2016.
  29. @Passer by
    @Aly

    Yes, but the spike in women who had a first child (and second child) increases the probability that more women will have a second or third child simply because the base suddenly got larger.

    What is important is that birth rate per 1000 per anum is rising. Btw the 3 % was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017, its just that the 1+ spiked, changing the percentage.

    The US had a baby boom in the 50s with similar data to today's Uzbekistan, that is - median age and birth rate per 1000.

    So UZB is doing pretty well, in real time.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Btw the 3 + was not much different in total than 2018 or 2017

    Read than 2017 or 2016.

  30. @Aly
    If there is drop in 3+ child group that could mater still in the long run. Even if there are less childless women (are there really that many before) because the 1-2 child becomes a cultural norm.
    I hope Karlin prediction are right about this and that would be huge, comparable to 2008 (or something) prediction about Russian demographic revival.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Dmitry

    Russian demographic revival.

    There isn’t exactly “demographic revival”, rather it seems likely the completed fertility rate will have been almost quite surprisingly constant for almost 30 years, with changes in timing (and a lot of journalists’ excitement in either direction, which sells newspapers at the time).

    It might probably finish being something like this (drawing is not real data).

  31. @Beckow

    ...Just 68 Indians.
     
    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the 'plague', not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don't succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy - so they are about to escalate...

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Ludwig, @songbird, @Servant of Gla'aki

    Most Indians in Poland are students and such, not people coming to build a live or settle down in the country.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @AlexanderGrozny

    According to data from the United Nations, there are 907 Indian-born migrants in Poland as of 2019.

    According to official Polish govt statistics, there are 9,410 Indians (2019 data) who have Polish residence permits (both temporary and permanent).

    Not sure why this discrepancy exists, but I suppose Indian migrants might be using Poland as a transit point to illegally migrate into Western Europe (primarily the UK). So they get a Polish permit and then travel to the UK, disappearing there into the vast Subcon population and using ethnic connections to get work.

    , @utu
    @AlexanderGrozny

    "Most Indians in Poland are students" - On paper only. The universities that endorse their visa applications are fake.

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny

  32. @Passer by

    AK: However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.
     
    Sorry, but this is empty talking.

    First - there is no source for data on Uzbekistan. I would need something more serious than bla bla bla on someone's blog.

    Second - i told you guys (Karlin and his" blogger") that you are poor at math.


    See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%.
     
    No, the percentage of women who have a third child is not bigger in Russia.

    Do you know why? Because Karlin and his "blogger" failed to understand that childless women should be included in stats too. Not just those who gave birth.

    Thus if you have 5 % of childless women in Uzbekistan and 25 % in Russia, you end up with a share of women having a third + child being 22,4 % of all women in Uzbekistan and 19 % of all women in Russia.

    Second, the decline in the third + children was compensated by a decrease in childless women in Uzbekistan (see the big spike in first child). Thus there was no drop in TFR.

    Third, TFR in Uzbekistan increased in 2020 again even though 3 + dropped one year before. In other words, there is no effect from these fluctuations.

    So Karlin made something out of nothing. It does not matter how many have a third child as long as the overall TFR is high. In this case, a decrease in the 3 + was compensated by overall decrease in childless people in the population.

    So most of Karlin's post is pretty much useless.

    Otherwise i like his blog.

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.
     

    Man, this guy is trolling to get more comments, reaction and infighting on his blog. : )

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Anatoly Karlin

    Nowhere near 25% of Russian women are childless.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @AlexanderGrozny

    Yet in 2019 fertile russian women gave birth to twice less children per woman than fertile uzbek women. That indicates that a lot more russian women are choosing to remain childless.

  33. @Dmitry
    Despite not having lockdowns or quarantines in Japan, the country had negative excess deaths for 2020.

    A country didn't need lockdowns or quarantines, if a sufficient majority of a country's population would actually follow the anti-epidemic hygiene protocols, or behave like mature people in relation to the pandemic (wear masks, wash hands, social distance, etc).


    TOKYO Feb. 24, 2021 — Deaths in Japan fell last year for the first time in more than a decade, a jarring contrast to the huge death tolls suffered by many countries in the pandemic and a signal that Japan’s coronavirus measures have had positive spillover effects. The Health Ministry reported this week that deaths in Japan had dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million. The decrease — seven-tenths of 1 percent from the year before — was a surprising turnabout for a nation with the oldest population in the world.

    The most recent Japanese government data does not break down mortality by category, so it is difficult to say with certainty what caused the decrease in deaths. But data from earlier in the year suggests that it was spurred in large part by a drastic decline in respiratory illnesses, a likely side effect of the country’s almost ubiquitous adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/world/asia/japan-deaths.html

     

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @utu, @Gerard-Mandela

  34. @Beckow

    ...Just 68 Indians.
     
    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the 'plague', not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don't succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy - so they are about to escalate...

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Ludwig, @songbird, @Servant of Gla'aki

    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.

    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology – the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement – both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole – mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India – no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Ludwig


    They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions
     
    Especially to wokism.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ludwig

    The few Indian expats in Russia I know enjoy it.

    Some speculation. Poland is within the EU, there are many Poles and Indians in the UK (and Ireland), probably some of those Indians and many more through word of mouth realized Poland is in some ways a more attractive or at least competitive immigration destination if absolute salary size isn't a high priority. Then once a critical mass appeared, many more started to come through chain migration.

    , @Beckow
    @Ludwig


    ...the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category
     
    Liberals call it virtuous judgment and do it freely to white, Christian, normal-gender males, and in particular to eastern Europeans - Russians being lumped with abandon. Indians are masters and pioneers in this 'lump the whitey' sport. Maybe they are trying to please, or maybe they simply hate white people. And more white a group is, more they hate. Your crocodile tears are wasted.

    Mass migration from South Asia is in a class of its own: the numbers potentially involved dwarf everything except sub-Saharan Africans. Their cliquishness and insane self-promotion attacks the core of Western societies - as you pointed out, they manage to steal more, capture more cushy spots, and in general suck more out of the West than almost any other migrant group. Yes, they tend not to be violent and are in general law-abiding - still their impact on natives' living standards and opportunities ( for the younger people) has been more devastating.

    But you gave yourself away with the 'casual racism' phrase. Right, we are all 'racist' if we don't submit and give up. I get that is what the likes of you think. But do you have any other thoughts? And it's good to know that plague is under control under India, are other diseases?

    Replies: @Ludwig

    , @Radicalcenter
    @Ludwig

    As an American, I volunteer to give them all our Indians, for free.

    Replies: @Radicalcenter

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Ludwig

    Liking Chinese immigration I understand (although disagree with), because the girls can be hot, but when you start praising Indian immigration, I know that your brain has been fried by reading The Economist too much

    , @EldnahYm
    @Ludwig

    https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_53.pdf

    You're full of shit. Indians have the lowest level of cultural assimilation of all ethnic groups in the U.S. Considering their lower numbers as compared with many Hispanic groups, that's impressive.

    This idea that host nations should be happy to welcome in foreigners who get rich at the expense of the locals is risible. It's even worse when it's from a parasitic, ethnically nepotistic, hostile group like Indians.

    Replies: @Ludwig

  35. @AlexanderGrozny
    @Beckow

    Most Indians in Poland are students and such, not people coming to build a live or settle down in the country.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @utu

    According to data from the United Nations, there are 907 Indian-born migrants in Poland as of 2019.

    According to official Polish govt statistics, there are 9,410 Indians (2019 data) who have Polish residence permits (both temporary and permanent).

    Not sure why this discrepancy exists, but I suppose Indian migrants might be using Poland as a transit point to illegally migrate into Western Europe (primarily the UK). So they get a Polish permit and then travel to the UK, disappearing there into the vast Subcon population and using ethnic connections to get work.

  36. @AlexanderGrozny
    @Beckow

    Most Indians in Poland are students and such, not people coming to build a live or settle down in the country.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @utu

    “Most Indians in Poland are students” – On paper only. The universities that endorse their visa applications are fake.

    • Replies: @AlexanderGrozny
    @utu

    Do you have any evidence of that?

  37. @Dmitry
    Despite not having lockdowns or quarantines in Japan, the country had negative excess deaths for 2020.

    A country didn't need lockdowns or quarantines, if a sufficient majority of a country's population would actually follow the anti-epidemic hygiene protocols, or behave like mature people in relation to the pandemic (wear masks, wash hands, social distance, etc).


    TOKYO Feb. 24, 2021 — Deaths in Japan fell last year for the first time in more than a decade, a jarring contrast to the huge death tolls suffered by many countries in the pandemic and a signal that Japan’s coronavirus measures have had positive spillover effects. The Health Ministry reported this week that deaths in Japan had dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million. The decrease — seven-tenths of 1 percent from the year before — was a surprising turnabout for a nation with the oldest population in the world.

    The most recent Japanese government data does not break down mortality by category, so it is difficult to say with certainty what caused the decrease in deaths. But data from earlier in the year suggests that it was spurred in large part by a drastic decline in respiratory illnesses, a likely side effect of the country’s almost ubiquitous adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/world/asia/japan-deaths.html

     

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @utu, @Gerard-Mandela

    Norway had 0.4% mortality drop in 2020.

    https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2021-02-19/svenska-dodstal-bland-europas-lagre
    Liechtenstein: 20,8%
    Spanien: 18,9%
    Polen: 18,7%
    Slovenien: 18,5%
    Italien: 17,4%
    Belgien: 16,7%
    Tjeckien: 16,6%

    Bulgarien: 15,1%
    Storbritannien: 15,1%
    Schweiz: 13,0%
    Malta: 12,6%
    Litauen: 12,3%
    Nederländerna: 11,6%
    Rumänien: 11,1%
    Österrike: 11,1%
    Portugal: 11,0%
    Slovakien: 10,5%
    Luxemburg: 10,4%
    Frankrike: 10,4%
    Cypern: 9,2%
    Kroatien: 9,1%
    Ungern: 8,1%
    Sverige: 7,6%
    Grekland: 7,5%
    Tyskland: 5,3%
    Estland: 3,1%
    Finland: 2,7%
    Island: 1,6%
    Danmark: 1,6%
    Lettland: 0,4%
    Norge: -0,4%

  38. @Passer by

    AK: However, at least in Uzbekistan, this is very likely just the last splurge before it enters a rapid demographic transition.
     
    Sorry, but this is empty talking.

    First - there is no source for data on Uzbekistan. I would need something more serious than bla bla bla on someone's blog.

    Second - i told you guys (Karlin and his" blogger") that you are poor at math.


    See one of the latest posts at the blog of stranger233*. The percentage of 3rd+ order births in Uzbekistan – that is, the number of births where the baby is a third children or higher – is at just 23.5% actually lower than Russia’s 25.2%.
     
    No, the percentage of women who have a third child is not bigger in Russia.

    Do you know why? Because Karlin and his "blogger" failed to understand that childless women should be included in stats too. Not just those who gave birth.

    Thus if you have 5 % of childless women in Uzbekistan and 25 % in Russia, you end up with a share of women having a third + child being 22,4 % of all women in Uzbekistan and 19 % of all women in Russia.

    Second, the decline in the third + children was compensated by a decrease in childless women in Uzbekistan (see the big spike in first child). Thus there was no drop in TFR.

    Third, TFR in Uzbekistan increased in 2020 again even though 3 + dropped one year before. In other words, there is no effect from these fluctuations.

    So Karlin made something out of nothing. It does not matter how many have a third child as long as the overall TFR is high. In this case, a decrease in the 3 + was compensated by overall decrease in childless people in the population.

    So most of Karlin's post is pretty much useless.

    Otherwise i like his blog.

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.
     

    Man, this guy is trolling to get more comments, reaction and infighting on his blog. : )

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Anatoly Karlin

    <10% of Russian women have not had children according to estimated of completed fertility through to the present day, so unless that veers sharply upwards, that is not going to be a major issue.

    The traditional big problem of Russian demographics, as is well known, is not that there are many Russian women without children (as happens in, say, Germany, where it's around 25% IIRC), but that many stop at 1 or at most 2.

    EDIT: Here is a nice graphic to illustrate the point:

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The fact remains that the fertile pool or Uzbekistani women had twice more children per woman than the fertile pool of Russian women in 2019. You can do the calculation yourself, check the number of 15 - 45 aged women and compare with the number of babies born in 2019. Twice more per fertile woman in UZB.

    If his data is right, then this means that right now, lots of russian women are deciding to remain childless. A group that he for some reason does not include in his "stats".

    It is possible that the spike in 3rd + in Uzb in 2018 was followed by a drop in 2019 to return to equilibrium. There is only a certain amount of women who want 3 + children. If for some reason their births spiked in 2018, then the amount of women wanting to have 3rd + has decreased, affecting the next 2019 year and causing a drop.

    It is also possibe that his data is a sham, because it is not very consistent with Uzbekistani birth rate per anum per 1000, which is quite high, as well as with the birth rate per fertile women per anum, which is twice higher than in Russia.

    In 2020 Uzbekistan had similar birth rate per 1000 to the US during the Baby Boom in the 1950s.

  39. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions

    Especially to wokism.

  40. @AP

    On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is.
     
    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Uzbekistan isn't listed there, but I doubt it is that close to Azerbaijan.

    Adjusted for cost of living, Ukraine exceeds all of those plus Moldova and Albania. Ukraine and Armenian data are from December 2020, the others from early 2020.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard-Mandela

    Other data I’ve Googled suggests Belarus remains modestly ahead of Ukraine in 2020 in average salaries, its political problems regardless. Regardless, wider point is that being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters – so svidomy crowing about Moskvabad etc. that one often encounters should be viewed in light of that fact.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters
     
    Sure. Plus, the fact that Uzbeks would have to go through Russia (with higher salaries) in order to get to Ukraine pretty much guarantees that no Uzbeks would come to Ukraine.
  41. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    The few Indian expats in Russia I know enjoy it.

    Some speculation. Poland is within the EU, there are many Poles and Indians in the UK (and Ireland), probably some of those Indians and many more through word of mouth realized Poland is in some ways a more attractive or at least competitive immigration destination if absolute salary size isn’t a high priority. Then once a critical mass appeared, many more started to come through chain migration.

  42. @Blinky Bill

    The one and only exception are Tajiks, of whom not only 1.9M had a registration status (that’s almost 25% of their 9M population), but 64,000 acquired citizenship. Considering only 30,000 Russians remain in Tajikistan, this means virtually all of these new Russian citizens are Tajiks. This Tajik transition from Gastarbeiters to citizenship has exploded in the past few years and is almost as high in per capita terms as Armenians.
     
    The Soviet leader Stalin also has expressed his opinion about the Tajiks:

    "Tajiks are the special nation. They are not Uzbeks, not Kazakhs, not Kyrgyzs. They are Tajiks, the most ancient nation of Central Asia. Tajik means a holder of crown, as they were called by Iranians and the Tajiks proved it.

    Out of the all the non-Russian Muslim peoples of the USSR, the Tajiks are the sole non-Turkic ethnicity – they are an Iranian ethnicity. The Tajiks are the people whose intelligentsia produced the great poet Ferdowsi, and it is no surprise that the Tajiks draw their cultural traditions from him. You must have felt the artistic flair of the Tajiks in the past decade, that their ancient culture and unique artistic talent as expressed in music, and song, and dance."

    Russian immigration officials are racist just like Stalin 😂😉

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNVYla0ty6wZLm8VdRcE3_tofGNJ3gyzZp4w&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzbRHGdUCExHz5Px9D_VpxVugWS-Zzl9AyLA&usqp.jpg

    https://www.kamerabild.se/sites/kamerabild.se/files/styles/article_image/public/Namnlo%CC%88s1_1.jpg


    No, not sub-human slavs, but Aryan Tajiks!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor, @sher singh, @Kent Nationalist, @Vishnugupta

    The Tajik language is indeed a pure form of Farsi.However the overwhelming mongol/turkish genetic admixture among Tajiks today is fairly obvious.

    The Tajikis of today are genetically very different from the people who produced Ferdowsi.

    On top of that comrade Stalin arbitrarily classified Uzbek living in Tajikistan as Tajiks and vice versa Samarkand in Uzbekistan has long been considered a persian speaking city and lots of ‘Uzbeks’ in that region today are in fact Tajiks.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Vishnugupta

    Who is the Tajik and who is the Uzbek? Shall we ever truly know?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Central_Asian_Buddhist_Monks.jpeg


    Neither!

    The comment below was made by Razib Kahn over a decade ago and to the best of my limited knowledge, remains true.


    The genetic and linguistic affinities of two dozen ethno-linguistic groups from the three Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. This is what the Greeks referred to as Transoxiana, and the Persians as Turan. Originally inhabited by peoples with close cultural affinities with those of Persia, indeed, likely the root of the peoples of Persia, by the historical period Turan developed a distinctive identity as a frontier or march. It was in Turan where the Turk met the Iranian (a class which included non-Persian groups, such as the Sogdians), from the pre-Islamic Sassanians down to the present day. It is a region of the world which has a very ancient urban culture, cities such as Merv, as well as peoples that were only recently nomads, forcibly made sedentary by the Soviet regime.

    To add another twist to the picture many of the ethno-linguistic groups which we are familiar with today and which serve as the cores of the new Central Asian nations only came into being within the last few centuries, with a particular “push” from Russian Imperial and Soviet ethnologists who were tasked with fleshing out national identities with which the center could negotiate. A “Tajik” is after all simply part of the Persian-speaking residual population of Central Asia, spreading down into Afghanistan. The carving out of an independent Tajikistan out of the Central Asian landscape is as much a creation of the modern age as the state of Israel. The “Uzbek” identity was once simply that of the ruling caste of Transoxiana who came to power after the decline of the Timurids. Today it is an appellation which brackets the settled Turkic speaking peoples of Uzbekistan and beyond.

    Into this near Gordian knot of history and ideology walk the naive and well-meaning geneticists.

    Located in the Eurasian heartland, Central Asia has played a major role in both the early spread of modern humans out of Africa and the more recent settlements of differentiated populations across Eurasia. A detailed knowledge of the peopling in this vast region would therefore greatly improve our understanding of range expansions, colonizations and recurrent migrations, including the impact of the historical expansion of eastern nomadic groups that occurred in Central Asia. However, despite its presumable importance, little is known about the level and the distribution of genetic variation in this region. We genotyped 26 Indo-Iranian- and Turkic-speaking populations, belonging to six different ethnic groups, at 27 autosomal microsatellite loci. The analysis of genetic variation reveals that Central Asian diversity is mainly shaped by linguistic affiliation, with Turkic-speaking populations forming a cluster more closely related to East-Asian populations and Indo-Iranian speakers forming a cluster closer to Western Eurasians. The scattered position of Uzbeks across Turkic- and Indo-Iranian-speaking populations may reflect their origins from the union of different tribes. We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen. Contrary to what is generally thought, our results suggest that the recurrent expansions of eastern nomadic groups did not result in the complete replacement of local populations, but rather into partial admixture.

    In my initial comment on this paper in a link round-up I wondered what the authors were thinking making such a comment: anyone who knows Central Asians would see on their faces that the Turks did not completely replace the local populations. The image above is of an Uzbek man, who does not exhibit any visible “Mongolian” features. This is not the norm, but is not unheard of. Even populations which are presumed to have less Iranian admixture, such as the Kazakhs, exhibit a range of physical types. It would be one thing if this reference was an isolated peculiarity, but there are other comments within the paper which indicate to me that the research group’s familiarity with the non-genetic literature is cursory at best. They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Near the end of the paper they say something really peculiar: “The Westernized view of westward invasions usually emphasizes the extreme violence and cruelty of the hordes led by Attila the Hun (AD 406–453), or that from the Mongolian empire led by Genghis Khan. However, our results somehow challenge this view and rather suggest that these more recent expansions did not lead to the massacre and complete replacement of the locally settled populations….” It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians, for whom the Mongol conquests were totally shocking and a literal world-turned-upside-down moment. The Mongol conquests did seem to result in a decline in population between Mesopotamia and Transoxiana. Whole cities in Central Asia were depopulated. There is an assumption that the Mongol conquests marks the turning point where Central Asia passed from being a predominantly Iranian world with a Turkic military elite (which was to be the nature of Iran proper until the 20th century) to a Turkic world with a large Persian minority. Though the military conquests of the Mongols were important punctuating events, I do not believe that scholars today would assume that they produced an ethnic shift in toto. On the contrary, the null hypothesis is generally against migrationism.

    There’s a clear separation linguistically between Iranian speaking and Turkic speaking groups in Central Asia. Some of the Turkic groups are close to Iranian groups, closer than to other Turkic groups, but still the two broad sets have a coherent identity. Undergirding the linguistic variation is classical geographic variation. The eastern Turkic groups seem the least impacted by the Iranian substrate which was dominant before the arrival of Turks, while the Turcoman group sampled from western Uzbekistan seems to have been the most genetically “Iranized.” In a world wide context the central position of Central Asians is not surprising. Interestingly the Iranian groups of Central Asia seem to overlap rather well with the Indo-Iranian groups from the HGDP data set. In contrast, the Turkic groups are distributed along a linear axis from East Asians to the Iranian cluster. This is the same pattern evident among African Americans as individuals. It’s a two-way admixture, with different dosage degrees by population as a function of history and geography (I presume you’d see the same pattern if it was broken down on individuals with a SNP-chip).

    Yagnobis of Dushanbe. I happen to know offhand that the Yagnobis are reputed to be descendants of the Sogdians, having preserved their language and Zoroastrian religion relatively late in history before switching to Tajik and Islam. Like many ethno-linguistic relics these people preserved their independent identity after the Arab conquest, which saw the decline of Sogdian influence on the Silk Road, by taking refuge in isolated regions. It is no surprise then that this group shows the least East Asian admixture of all the Iranian samples, as they were isolated from many of the social and historical processes which were operative in Transoxiana after the conquest by the Arabs, and the later pushing in of the zone of Turkic hegemony after the fall of the Samanids.

    These admixture estimates definitely put the spotlight on the role of Central Asia as a nexus of sorts. In the archaeology and history it is clear that Central Asia has been affected by peoples of European, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and East Asian origin. Central Asia itself has been the mother of empires, famously the seat of Timur, but also the original base of what later became the Abbasid dynasty. At one point the Caliphate was split between western and eastern factions and there was a possibility that the capital would be relocated from Baghdad to the Central Asian city of Merv! I do not believe that the Arabs had a strong genetic impact, nor was there a large South Asian migration in recent periods into Central Asia. So the admixture estimates adduced for these groups may be due to the natural cline in allele frequencies which are found in different peripheral Eurasian populations. Frequencies which are naturally intermediate in Central Asia. The main caveat is that it is probable that local conditions will vary a great deal. In contrast we have strong reason to suspect that the East Asian component arrived relatively recently with the Turks, and we see that its aspect is most evident among the groups which were nomadic within living memory, the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. These two ethnicities, which are really compounds of several tribes or “hordes,” were only marginally integrated into sedentary Islamic society where the Tajik element would be prominent (shamanism among many of these tribes only disappeared under the influence of the Islamic missionaries sponsored by Russian Empire). I think this pattern is reinforced by what we saw in the correspondence analysis, where the Turkic groups exhibited a linear distribution toward East Asia, while the Iranian ones were placed where you’d expect them geographically. Finally, I want to note that Dienekes observes that using South Asians as a Central Asian population source is strange since South Asia is more appropriately thought of as a demographic sink for Turan. True, but the HGDP populations are strongly biased toward groups with relatively little indigenous South Asian ancestry, with the Sindhi being the only Indo-Aryan speakers within the set. So I think that objection is mitigated by these factors. Rather, the Iranian-speaking Pakistani groups serve as proxies for the original Central Asian Iranian substrate, from which both they and the Tajiks presumably derive.

    Moving back to the Turk vs. Iranian distinction, the authors note that the Turkic groups exhibit a strong degree of genetic homogeneity on the Y chromosomal lineages. This points to the possible manner in which the East Asian genetic element spread in Central Asia, not necessarily just through population displacement, but also through polygamy and the high reproductive fitness of particular “super-male” lineages. The children of elite Turkic men who took Iranian wives presumably adopted the culture of their fathers, including the linguistic identity. This may have been particularly easy in Central Asia because they did not have to repudiate their maternal heritage in totality, as Persian culture still had great status and currency. If we partition the ancestry into “East Eurasian” and “West Eurasian” components the Turkic groups have much more of the latter than the Iranian ones have of the former. That stands to reason as the Turks were newcomers, and an elite which the locals would wish to assimilate to if they had the opportunity. In contrast, the shift from Turk to Iranian may have been rarer, and a switch which individuals would wish to avoid since the latter did not have the same level of temporal power. Over ~1,500 years gene flow does occur between the groups, and even the Yagnobis have appreciable East Asian ancestry. Eventually the linguistic differences would probably be dwarfed by the geographical ones, but currently we’re taking a snapshot of a “transient.”

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  43. @Bashibuzuk
    @4Dchessmaster

    Frankly I have no idea what people think of them, except that they are really different from the Volga Tatars. I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them, but it was an internal Ukrainian problem when I still lived in Russia.

    Replies: @AP, @melanf

    I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them

    From what I have seen and heard in Crimea (this January), there is no big problem with the Crimean Tatars

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @melanf

    Those who caused problems have moved to Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea. Others behave themselves. But they also behaved themselves prior to 1918 and then under Soviet rule until 1941. As soon as the pressure weakened they started causing serious problems. Those who were 100% loyal to Russia in Crimea were the Karaite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites

    But there are not many left of them.

  44. Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    This isn’t even that bold. The world is full of nations that has gone from ~4-5 TFR to below replacement level in few decades. It would be bolder to predict that Central Asia is going to continue to have a fertility rate above replacement level for another 3 decades.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword

    Well there are people on this thread who stridently disagree. :)

    Replies: @Passer by

    , @Passer by
    @Shortsword

    Yeah, but according to a recent large study in the Lancet Uzbek TFR will take a long time to drop below replacement rate, by around 2080.

    In 2100: Uzb TFR 1,89 Russia 1,43

    Central Asia 139mil Russia 106mil

    Not to mention that younger population median age at equal TFR leads to higher birth rate in the first case.

    Replies: @Shortsword

  45. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

    Replies: @melanf

    Crimean Tatars are heavily admixed with Greeks and to a lesser extent Germanic Ostrogoths whom they absorbed.

    The current Crimean Tatars are strongly mixed with the population of Central Asia. As far as I know, some of the Crimean Tatars are actually Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, etc. who declared themselves Crimean Tatars in order to move to the Crimea

  46. process of demographic transition in Russia bottomed out over the past century, and the only way is up, increasingly driven by the emergence of “breeder” groups such as Orthodox priests and possibly some religious rural communities in the Far North. Nowhere near the scale it’s already at in Israel, of course

    This is probably not so good, since these religious groups concentrate people with low intelligence

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Russia went through a round of reverse eugenics after the Revolution, when the smartest were killed or driven into exile. It can rebound this time, also. Although I am not sure that these religious types are necessarily dumb.

  47. And the future of Russians in Kazakhstan and the other Stand are????????

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Znzn

    They will leave . In fact many of them already have. The only problematic region is southern Siberia which is today partly included into Kazakhstan. These lands were under Cossacks for a few hundred years, these territories are not really Kazakh, but even there I would think Russian population would decrease.

  48. @melanf
    @Bashibuzuk


    I think Russians in Crimea had problems with them
     
    From what I have seen and heard in Crimea (this January), there is no big problem with the Crimean Tatars

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Those who caused problems have moved to Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea. Others behave themselves. But they also behaved themselves prior to 1918 and then under Soviet rule until 1941. As soon as the pressure weakened they started causing serious problems. Those who were 100% loyal to Russia in Crimea were the Karaite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites

    But there are not many left of them.

  49. @Znzn
    And the future of Russians in Kazakhstan and the other Stand are????????

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    They will leave . In fact many of them already have. The only problematic region is southern Siberia which is today partly included into Kazakhstan. These lands were under Cossacks for a few hundred years, these territories are not really Kazakh, but even there I would think Russian population would decrease.

  50. The real threat is chain migration, i.e. legislation allowing legal residents to sponsor visas for their relatives in their home countries.

  51. Putin should have agitated for increased autonomy for Russians in Northern Kazakhstan a long time ago, considering that Kazakhstan is even weaker than the Ukraine.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    Probably would be considered more dangerous on a geopolitical level as Kazakhstan shares a border with China, and the Chinese might then be tempted to help impose economic sanctions.

    I also wonder what it would have done to Russia's space launch capability.

    , @Radicalcenter
    @128

    When the USSR disbanded, Russia should have kept Estonia, Latvia, and northernmost Kazakhstan. Gonna be hard to get them back and hold them now, especially if the number of ethnic Russians continues to decline.

  52. @Shortsword

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

     

    This isn't even that bold. The world is full of nations that has gone from ~4-5 TFR to below replacement level in few decades. It would be bolder to predict that Central Asia is going to continue to have a fertility rate above replacement level for another 3 decades.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Passer by

    Well there are people on this thread who stridently disagree. 🙂

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, and my views are not rare.

    From what i hear there is some kind of re-primitivisation going on in Central Asia, which could be causing the rise of their birth rate per year compared to 2000 birth rate per year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7mqClE1Ksk

  53. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    <10% of Russian women have not had children according to estimated of completed fertility through to the present day, so unless that veers sharply upwards, that is not going to be a major issue.

    The traditional big problem of Russian demographics, as is well known, is not that there are many Russian women without children (as happens in, say, Germany, where it's around 25% IIRC), but that many stop at 1 or at most 2.

    EDIT: Here is a nice graphic to illustrate the point:

    https://www.economist.com/img/b/608/739/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20170729_IRC244.png

    Replies: @Passer by

    The fact remains that the fertile pool or Uzbekistani women had twice more children per woman than the fertile pool of Russian women in 2019. You can do the calculation yourself, check the number of 15 – 45 aged women and compare with the number of babies born in 2019. Twice more per fertile woman in UZB.

    If his data is right, then this means that right now, lots of russian women are deciding to remain childless. A group that he for some reason does not include in his “stats”.

    It is possible that the spike in 3rd + in Uzb in 2018 was followed by a drop in 2019 to return to equilibrium. There is only a certain amount of women who want 3 + children. If for some reason their births spiked in 2018, then the amount of women wanting to have 3rd + has decreased, affecting the next 2019 year and causing a drop.

    It is also possibe that his data is a sham, because it is not very consistent with Uzbekistani birth rate per anum per 1000, which is quite high, as well as with the birth rate per fertile women per anum, which is twice higher than in Russia.

    In 2020 Uzbekistan had similar birth rate per 1000 to the US during the Baby Boom in the 1950s.

  54. To be honest, should the current form of globalisation continue (and I expect that it will), immigration to other countries is inevitable. I fully expect countries like Russia and even places like Poland and Hungary to have their minority populations firmly established eventually. However such minorities eventually ‘whiten up’ so its not a huge issue in the long run (unless you are a purist)

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    On current trends, I predict that Western countries will be majority-minority within 30 years (mainly the cities with the rural hinterlands belonging to the traditional demographic) where as the majority of Russian and EE citiew wont really see too much of a change.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Hartnell


    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.
     
    I think you are correct.
    , @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.
     
    In the long run, that is a distinction without a difference. This generation will accept "just a few" and the next generation will accept "just a few" and so on, and before you know it, it's no longer just a few.

    And of course with the passage of time and the substitution of cuckfaggot wishful thinking for hardheaded analysis - nothing simpler than to pour scorn on "purists" who warn of the long-term dangers - intermixture accelerates to the point where it becomes politically impossible to determine how much mixture is "too much" so the result is that everyone is accepted, so that even if, by some miracle, a mass movement against racial replacement occurred, it would almost certainly fail. And then once that agitation quells, the next generation of cucks once again introduces the idea of "just a few" immigrants....

    So, though it pains me to do so, I can only laugh at these slavs you claim to have spoken to, who consider themselves oh so much wiser than the western cucklings they're comparing themselves to, because with their thinking, the end result for them is unlikely to be markedly different to the west's dismal fate.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Daniel Chieh

    , @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world's largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government's policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be "safe" from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It's not impossible that China's economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    -
    For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India's economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It's possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    https://i.imgur.com/bQkDyw6.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @antibeast, @melanf

  55. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword

    Well there are people on this thread who stridently disagree. :)

    Replies: @Passer by

    Yes, and my views are not rare.

    From what i hear there is some kind of re-primitivisation going on in Central Asia, which could be causing the rise of their birth rate per year compared to 2000 birth rate per year.

  56. @AlexanderGrozny
    @Passer by

    Nowhere near 25% of Russian women are childless.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Yet in 2019 fertile russian women gave birth to twice less children per woman than fertile uzbek women. That indicates that a lot more russian women are choosing to remain childless.

  57. china-russia-all-the-way says:

    In the trendy Sanlitun neighborhood, the whitest street in Beijing is perpendicular to the blackest street circa 2019. The number of any foreigners has thinned out since then. During the pandemic up to now it is very hard to get a visa to come to Beijing.

  58. @Beckow

    ...Just 68 Indians.
     
    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the 'plague', not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don't succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy - so they are about to escalate...

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Ludwig, @songbird, @Servant of Gla'aki

    Perhaps, they could get the 68 to return and thus draw the millions in the rest of Europe eventually back to India?

  59. @Hartnell
    To be honest, should the current form of globalisation continue (and I expect that it will), immigration to other countries is inevitable. I fully expect countries like Russia and even places like Poland and Hungary to have their minority populations firmly established eventually. However such minorities eventually 'whiten up' so its not a huge issue in the long run (unless you are a purist)

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    On current trends, I predict that Western countries will be majority-minority within 30 years (mainly the cities with the rural hinterlands belonging to the traditional demographic) where as the majority of Russian and EE citiew wont really see too much of a change.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver, @Dmitry

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    I think you are correct.

  60. @Shortsword

    Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

     

    This isn't even that bold. The world is full of nations that has gone from ~4-5 TFR to below replacement level in few decades. It would be bolder to predict that Central Asia is going to continue to have a fertility rate above replacement level for another 3 decades.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Passer by

    Yeah, but according to a recent large study in the Lancet Uzbek TFR will take a long time to drop below replacement rate, by around 2080.

    In 2100: Uzb TFR 1,89 Russia 1,43

    Central Asia 139mil Russia 106mil

    Not to mention that younger population median age at equal TFR leads to higher birth rate in the first case.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Passer by

    Studies like that work with simple models and use very reserved assumptions. You'll never see a "risky" prediction from any forecast like this. For example, Uruguay's fertility rate dropped from close to 2.0 to 1.4 in 5 years. In a Lancet forecast the time frame of such a fall probably would've been 50 years or something.

    Replies: @Passer by

  61. Beijing: A Chinese divorce court has ordered a husband to pay his wife more than $US7700 ($9680) in compensation for the housework she performed during five years of marriage, in a landmark decision that activists hope will lead to greater protections for women in China.

    Fun news from today. Got me thinking, does the laws on divorces have any non-negligible effect on marriage rates or anything else? In some countries a divorce can basically bankrupt you. Jeff Bezos might still be pretty rich but $40B is an expensive divorce.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Shortsword

    Who initiated the divorce, and why? Also what portion of the guy’s wealth this represented?

  62. @Hartnell
    To be honest, should the current form of globalisation continue (and I expect that it will), immigration to other countries is inevitable. I fully expect countries like Russia and even places like Poland and Hungary to have their minority populations firmly established eventually. However such minorities eventually 'whiten up' so its not a huge issue in the long run (unless you are a purist)

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    On current trends, I predict that Western countries will be majority-minority within 30 years (mainly the cities with the rural hinterlands belonging to the traditional demographic) where as the majority of Russian and EE citiew wont really see too much of a change.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver, @Dmitry

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    In the long run, that is a distinction without a difference. This generation will accept “just a few” and the next generation will accept “just a few” and so on, and before you know it, it’s no longer just a few.

    And of course with the passage of time and the substitution of cuckfaggot wishful thinking for hardheaded analysis – nothing simpler than to pour scorn on “purists” who warn of the long-term dangers – intermixture accelerates to the point where it becomes politically impossible to determine how much mixture is “too much” so the result is that everyone is accepted, so that even if, by some miracle, a mass movement against racial replacement occurred, it would almost certainly fail. And then once that agitation quells, the next generation of cucks once again introduces the idea of “just a few” immigrants….

    So, though it pains me to do so, I can only laugh at these slavs you claim to have spoken to, who consider themselves oh so much wiser than the western cucklings they’re comparing themselves to, because with their thinking, the end result for them is unlikely to be markedly different to the west’s dismal fate.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @silviosilver

    I strongly have to disagree here. Human history has always been the case of "just a few", right back when the first tribes started to comingle. Look at the gene pools of people and it is made up of tribes that have simply vanished into time and space. It is evolution and a normal part of Human existence. The main group gets some new DNA and continues onwards.

    Russia is not unique in this. As the saying goes, "scratch a Russian, find a Tartar." This essentially will be the same case with the Central Asians down the road as it was for the Mongols and Tartars before them. Basically nothing to see here.

    The other option is colonisation where one group ultimately wipes out the other through mass mixing and large scale settlement population. The former would be India and the latter America.

    If I was to make a statement, I would say the West is more the case of the India scenario. Mass groups of people moving in that will submerge the host into a new population.

    But in saying that, times have changed now. Life is more urban and less about tribes. So I suspect the new migrants eventually coalescing to low birth rates in the cities with Karlins breeder theory taking root in the rural areas (which is mainly staying in traditional demographic territory i.e white)

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @silviosilver

    I should like to note that our kind host himself is part Caucasian and being a transhumanist, given the completed dreams of transcendent biosingularity would not resemble humans in our present day much at all.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    As such, arguments for purity in this blog always amuse me.

  63. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Other data I've Googled suggests Belarus remains modestly ahead of Ukraine in 2020 in average salaries, its political problems regardless. Regardless, wider point is that being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters - so svidomy crowing about Moskvabad etc. that one often encounters should be viewed in light of that fact.

    Replies: @AP

    being 50% richer than Uzbekistan is not a differential that is going to get you any Gastarbeiters

    Sure. Plus, the fact that Uzbeks would have to go through Russia (with higher salaries) in order to get to Ukraine pretty much guarantees that no Uzbeks would come to Ukraine.

  64. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Lol, what’s Russian for “TNB”?

  65. @melanf

    process of demographic transition in Russia bottomed out over the past century, and the only way is up, increasingly driven by the emergence of “breeder” groups such as Orthodox priests and possibly some religious rural communities in the Far North. Nowhere near the scale it’s already at in Israel, of course
     
    This is probably not so good, since these religious groups concentrate people with low intelligence

    Replies: @AP

    Russia went through a round of reverse eugenics after the Revolution, when the smartest were killed or driven into exile. It can rebound this time, also. Although I am not sure that these religious types are necessarily dumb.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  66. @reiner Tor
    @Blinky Bill

    Probably the average Tajik looks way worse, but these are certainly good looking people.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks. There was a very pretty and good-natured Tajik girl in the village where I used to live. Her parents arranged a marriage and packed her back off to Tajikistan, since they were afraid she’d get ruined in Russia.

    • Replies: @AP
    @The Big Red Scary


    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks
     
    That’s because Tadjiks are basically Indo-European Persians, with some Central Asian admixture.
  67. @utu
    @AlexanderGrozny

    "Most Indians in Poland are students" - On paper only. The universities that endorse their visa applications are fake.

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny

    Do you have any evidence of that?

  68. @The Big Red Scary
    @reiner Tor

    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks. There was a very pretty and good-natured Tajik girl in the village where I used to live. Her parents arranged a marriage and packed her back off to Tajikistan, since they were afraid she'd get ruined in Russia.

    Replies: @AP

    The Tajiks I have met were somewhat duskier, but still attractive. Much more European looking than Uzbeks

    That’s because Tadjiks are basically Indo-European Persians, with some Central Asian admixture.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  69. @Passer by
    @Shortsword

    Yeah, but according to a recent large study in the Lancet Uzbek TFR will take a long time to drop below replacement rate, by around 2080.

    In 2100: Uzb TFR 1,89 Russia 1,43

    Central Asia 139mil Russia 106mil

    Not to mention that younger population median age at equal TFR leads to higher birth rate in the first case.

    Replies: @Shortsword

    Studies like that work with simple models and use very reserved assumptions. You’ll never see a “risky” prediction from any forecast like this. For example, Uruguay’s fertility rate dropped from close to 2.0 to 1.4 in 5 years. In a Lancet forecast the time frame of such a fall probably would’ve been 50 years or something.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Shortsword

    Not at all.

    It is the most pessimistic demographic study for the world i have ever seen actually. They also estimate a US population remaining the same and China dropping by half to 712 million.

    Replies: @Shortsword

  70. The formerly Soviet “stans” have varying degrees of Oriental admixture. Based on what I’ve seen of the people from pictures I’d say that Mongoloid admixture, from most to least, is as follows:
    Kyrgyzstan
    Kazakhstan
    Turkmenistan
    Uzbekistan
    Tajikistan

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg/1200px-Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg.png

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAvJ-FGKaRcCtWgo0ScYoaFrIowLdi5n2Mng&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo4FfRDBIiyZ2eimHIWfwaSgEx1NX5ZAuE6g&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkgdVVYWfNMkRsPw1xPuMOFSY7-QVUPx0Ymg&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Bashibuzuk

    , @anon1000
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Close, but from the data its:
    Kazakhstan
    Krygyzstan
    North Uzbekistan
    Turkmenistan
    South Uzbekistan
    Tajikistan

  71. @Shortsword
    @Passer by

    Studies like that work with simple models and use very reserved assumptions. You'll never see a "risky" prediction from any forecast like this. For example, Uruguay's fertility rate dropped from close to 2.0 to 1.4 in 5 years. In a Lancet forecast the time frame of such a fall probably would've been 50 years or something.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Not at all.

    It is the most pessimistic demographic study for the world i have ever seen actually. They also estimate a US population remaining the same and China dropping by half to 712 million.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Passer by

    Yeah. The typically work with the assumption that fertility rate is going to slowly decrease.

    Replies: @Passer by

  72. @Passer by
    @Shortsword

    Not at all.

    It is the most pessimistic demographic study for the world i have ever seen actually. They also estimate a US population remaining the same and China dropping by half to 712 million.

    Replies: @Shortsword

    Yeah. The typically work with the assumption that fertility rate is going to slowly decrease.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Shortsword

    Well, that's the study with the worst assumptions compared to anyone else. For example all the other studies i'm aware of predict a US population increase.

    Moreover, i'm more bullish on Central Asia than others because this is a heartland region (the Middle of Asia) and heartland regions generally have higher birth rate than coastal regions.

    For example if you look at the US, Canada, Australia, India, Southern America or Africa, it is the heartland regions that have generally higher birth rate than the coastal regions.

  73. @Shortsword
    @Passer by

    Yeah. The typically work with the assumption that fertility rate is going to slowly decrease.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Well, that’s the study with the worst assumptions compared to anyone else. For example all the other studies i’m aware of predict a US population increase.

    Moreover, i’m more bullish on Central Asia than others because this is a heartland region (the Middle of Asia) and heartland regions generally have higher birth rate than coastal regions.

    For example if you look at the US, Canada, Australia, India, Southern America or Africa, it is the heartland regions that have generally higher birth rate than the coastal regions.

  74. @Hapalong Cassidy
    The formerly Soviet “stans” have varying degrees of Oriental admixture. Based on what I’ve seen of the people from pictures I’d say that Mongoloid admixture, from most to least, is as follows:
    Kyrgyzstan
    Kazakhstan
    Turkmenistan
    Uzbekistan
    Tajikistan

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @anon1000


    [MORE]

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    The problem is that Central Asia is chock-full of hybrid and heterogeneous populations, very difficult to make generalization, national/politcal boundaries don't always align neatly with ethnolinguistic/racial ones. Thank you Stalin and conquers of the past millennia 😅.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill



    https://previews.123rf.com/images/fsyln/fsyln1712/fsyln171200041/92245475-orkhon-inscriptions-the-oldest-form-of-a-turkic-language-to-be-preserved-it-is-most-important-epigra.jpg

    Interesting how some among the Orkhon runes look nearly identical to the elder Futhark.

    https://indo-european.eu/y-dna-and-mtdna-maps/haplogroup-n1a-tat/

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/xiongnu-ancestry-connects-huns-avars-to-scytho-siberians/

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/r1a-z280-and-r1a-z93-shared-by-ancient-ugric-populations-n1c-tat-expanded-with-micro-altaic/

  75. @Blinky Bill
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg/1200px-Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg.png

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAvJ-FGKaRcCtWgo0ScYoaFrIowLdi5n2Mng&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo4FfRDBIiyZ2eimHIWfwaSgEx1NX5ZAuE6g&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkgdVVYWfNMkRsPw1xPuMOFSY7-QVUPx0Ymg&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Bashibuzuk

    The problem is that Central Asia is chock-full of hybrid and heterogeneous populations, very difficult to make generalization, national/politcal boundaries don’t always align neatly with ethnolinguistic/racial ones. Thank you Stalin and conquers of the past millennia 😅.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    IIRC one of the early Islamic merchants who met with pagan ancient Rus traders on the Itil river identified them as a Turkic tribe.

  76. Any pattern between Southern and Northern Slavs within Russia? Within a greater European geographic context, I’ve wondered if one group or other might be somehow better adjusted to modern lifestyles.

  77. @Blinky Bill
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg/1200px-Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg.png

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAvJ-FGKaRcCtWgo0ScYoaFrIowLdi5n2Mng&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo4FfRDBIiyZ2eimHIWfwaSgEx1NX5ZAuE6g&usqp.jpg

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkgdVVYWfNMkRsPw1xPuMOFSY7-QVUPx0Ymg&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Bashibuzuk

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  78. @128
    Putin should have agitated for increased autonomy for Russians in Northern Kazakhstan a long time ago, considering that Kazakhstan is even weaker than the Ukraine.

    Replies: @songbird, @Radicalcenter

    Probably would be considered more dangerous on a geopolitical level as Kazakhstan shares a border with China, and the Chinese might then be tempted to help impose economic sanctions.

    I also wonder what it would have done to Russia’s space launch capability.

  79. @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    The problem is that Central Asia is chock-full of hybrid and heterogeneous populations, very difficult to make generalization, national/politcal boundaries don't always align neatly with ethnolinguistic/racial ones. Thank you Stalin and conquers of the past millennia 😅.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    IIRC one of the early Islamic merchants who met with pagan ancient Rus traders on the Itil river identified them as a Turkic tribe.

  80. @Vishnugupta
    @Blinky Bill

    The Tajik language is indeed a pure form of Farsi.However the overwhelming mongol/turkish genetic admixture among Tajiks today is fairly obvious.

    The Tajikis of today are genetically very different from the people who produced Ferdowsi.

    On top of that comrade Stalin arbitrarily classified Uzbek living in Tajikistan as Tajiks and vice versa Samarkand in Uzbekistan has long been considered a persian speaking city and lots of 'Uzbeks' in that region today are in fact Tajiks.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Who is the Tajik and who is the Uzbek? Shall we ever truly know?


    [MORE]

    Neither!

    The comment below was made by Razib Kahn over a decade ago and to the best of my limited knowledge, remains true.

    The genetic and linguistic affinities of two dozen ethno-linguistic groups from the three Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. This is what the Greeks referred to as Transoxiana, and the Persians as Turan. Originally inhabited by peoples with close cultural affinities with those of Persia, indeed, likely the root of the peoples of Persia, by the historical period Turan developed a distinctive identity as a frontier or march. It was in Turan where the Turk met the Iranian (a class which included non-Persian groups, such as the Sogdians), from the pre-Islamic Sassanians down to the present day. It is a region of the world which has a very ancient urban culture, cities such as Merv, as well as peoples that were only recently nomads, forcibly made sedentary by the Soviet regime.

    To add another twist to the picture many of the ethno-linguistic groups which we are familiar with today and which serve as the cores of the new Central Asian nations only came into being within the last few centuries, with a particular “push” from Russian Imperial and Soviet ethnologists who were tasked with fleshing out national identities with which the center could negotiate. A “Tajik” is after all simply part of the Persian-speaking residual population of Central Asia, spreading down into Afghanistan. The carving out of an independent Tajikistan out of the Central Asian landscape is as much a creation of the modern age as the state of Israel. The “Uzbek” identity was once simply that of the ruling caste of Transoxiana who came to power after the decline of the Timurids. Today it is an appellation which brackets the settled Turkic speaking peoples of Uzbekistan and beyond.

    Into this near Gordian knot of history and ideology walk the naive and well-meaning geneticists.

    Located in the Eurasian heartland, Central Asia has played a major role in both the early spread of modern humans out of Africa and the more recent settlements of differentiated populations across Eurasia. A detailed knowledge of the peopling in this vast region would therefore greatly improve our understanding of range expansions, colonizations and recurrent migrations, including the impact of the historical expansion of eastern nomadic groups that occurred in Central Asia. However, despite its presumable importance, little is known about the level and the distribution of genetic variation in this region. We genotyped 26 Indo-Iranian- and Turkic-speaking populations, belonging to six different ethnic groups, at 27 autosomal microsatellite loci. The analysis of genetic variation reveals that Central Asian diversity is mainly shaped by linguistic affiliation, with Turkic-speaking populations forming a cluster more closely related to East-Asian populations and Indo-Iranian speakers forming a cluster closer to Western Eurasians. The scattered position of Uzbeks across Turkic- and Indo-Iranian-speaking populations may reflect their origins from the union of different tribes. We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen. Contrary to what is generally thought, our results suggest that the recurrent expansions of eastern nomadic groups did not result in the complete replacement of local populations, but rather into partial admixture.

    In my initial comment on this paper in a link round-up I wondered what the authors were thinking making such a comment: anyone who knows Central Asians would see on their faces that the Turks did not completely replace the local populations. The image above is of an Uzbek man, who does not exhibit any visible “Mongolian” features. This is not the norm, but is not unheard of. Even populations which are presumed to have less Iranian admixture, such as the Kazakhs, exhibit a range of physical types. It would be one thing if this reference was an isolated peculiarity, but there are other comments within the paper which indicate to me that the research group’s familiarity with the non-genetic literature is cursory at best. They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Near the end of the paper they say something really peculiar: “The Westernized view of westward invasions usually emphasizes the extreme violence and cruelty of the hordes led by Attila the Hun (AD 406–453), or that from the Mongolian empire led by Genghis Khan. However, our results somehow challenge this view and rather suggest that these more recent expansions did not lead to the massacre and complete replacement of the locally settled populations….” It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians, for whom the Mongol conquests were totally shocking and a literal world-turned-upside-down moment. The Mongol conquests did seem to result in a decline in population between Mesopotamia and Transoxiana. Whole cities in Central Asia were depopulated. There is an assumption that the Mongol conquests marks the turning point where Central Asia passed from being a predominantly Iranian world with a Turkic military elite (which was to be the nature of Iran proper until the 20th century) to a Turkic world with a large Persian minority. Though the military conquests of the Mongols were important punctuating events, I do not believe that scholars today would assume that they produced an ethnic shift in toto. On the contrary, the null hypothesis is generally against migrationism.

    There’s a clear separation linguistically between Iranian speaking and Turkic speaking groups in Central Asia. Some of the Turkic groups are close to Iranian groups, closer than to other Turkic groups, but still the two broad sets have a coherent identity. Undergirding the linguistic variation is classical geographic variation. The eastern Turkic groups seem the least impacted by the Iranian substrate which was dominant before the arrival of Turks, while the Turcoman group sampled from western Uzbekistan seems to have been the most genetically “Iranized.” In a world wide context the central position of Central Asians is not surprising. Interestingly the Iranian groups of Central Asia seem to overlap rather well with the Indo-Iranian groups from the HGDP data set. In contrast, the Turkic groups are distributed along a linear axis from East Asians to the Iranian cluster. This is the same pattern evident among African Americans as individuals. It’s a two-way admixture, with different dosage degrees by population as a function of history and geography (I presume you’d see the same pattern if it was broken down on individuals with a SNP-chip).

    Yagnobis of Dushanbe. I happen to know offhand that the Yagnobis are reputed to be descendants of the Sogdians, having preserved their language and Zoroastrian religion relatively late in history before switching to Tajik and Islam. Like many ethno-linguistic relics these people preserved their independent identity after the Arab conquest, which saw the decline of Sogdian influence on the Silk Road, by taking refuge in isolated regions. It is no surprise then that this group shows the least East Asian admixture of all the Iranian samples, as they were isolated from many of the social and historical processes which were operative in Transoxiana after the conquest by the Arabs, and the later pushing in of the zone of Turkic hegemony after the fall of the Samanids.

    These admixture estimates definitely put the spotlight on the role of Central Asia as a nexus of sorts. In the archaeology and history it is clear that Central Asia has been affected by peoples of European, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and East Asian origin. Central Asia itself has been the mother of empires, famously the seat of Timur, but also the original base of what later became the Abbasid dynasty. At one point the Caliphate was split between western and eastern factions and there was a possibility that the capital would be relocated from Baghdad to the Central Asian city of Merv! I do not believe that the Arabs had a strong genetic impact, nor was there a large South Asian migration in recent periods into Central Asia. So the admixture estimates adduced for these groups may be due to the natural cline in allele frequencies which are found in different peripheral Eurasian populations. Frequencies which are naturally intermediate in Central Asia. The main caveat is that it is probable that local conditions will vary a great deal. In contrast we have strong reason to suspect that the East Asian component arrived relatively recently with the Turks, and we see that its aspect is most evident among the groups which were nomadic within living memory, the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. These two ethnicities, which are really compounds of several tribes or “hordes,” were only marginally integrated into sedentary Islamic society where the Tajik element would be prominent (shamanism among many of these tribes only disappeared under the influence of the Islamic missionaries sponsored by Russian Empire). I think this pattern is reinforced by what we saw in the correspondence analysis, where the Turkic groups exhibited a linear distribution toward East Asia, while the Iranian ones were placed where you’d expect them geographically. Finally, I want to note that Dienekes observes that using South Asians as a Central Asian population source is strange since South Asia is more appropriately thought of as a demographic sink for Turan. True, but the HGDP populations are strongly biased toward groups with relatively little indigenous South Asian ancestry, with the Sindhi being the only Indo-Aryan speakers within the set. So I think that objection is mitigated by these factors. Rather, the Iranian-speaking Pakistani groups serve as proxies for the original Central Asian Iranian substrate, from which both they and the Tajiks presumably derive.

    Moving back to the Turk vs. Iranian distinction, the authors note that the Turkic groups exhibit a strong degree of genetic homogeneity on the Y chromosomal lineages. This points to the possible manner in which the East Asian genetic element spread in Central Asia, not necessarily just through population displacement, but also through polygamy and the high reproductive fitness of particular “super-male” lineages. The children of elite Turkic men who took Iranian wives presumably adopted the culture of their fathers, including the linguistic identity. This may have been particularly easy in Central Asia because they did not have to repudiate their maternal heritage in totality, as Persian culture still had great status and currency. If we partition the ancestry into “East Eurasian” and “West Eurasian” components the Turkic groups have much more of the latter than the Iranian ones have of the former. That stands to reason as the Turks were newcomers, and an elite which the locals would wish to assimilate to if they had the opportunity. In contrast, the shift from Turk to Iranian may have been rarer, and a switch which individuals would wish to avoid since the latter did not have the same level of temporal power. Over ~1,500 years gene flow does occur between the groups, and even the Yagnobis have appreciable East Asian ancestry. Eventually the linguistic differences would probably be dwarfed by the geographical ones, but currently we’re taking a snapshot of a “transient.”

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    The Indo-European looking monk is probably a Kushan and the Oriental looking monk is probably a Han Chinese.

    The whole origin of the Turkic populations and the acculturation of the ancient Indo-Iranian peoples of Turan to the adoption of Turkic languages is a very interesting topic. Especially when one takes note of impact the Xiongnu and Spenta Huna have probably had on the region. That is why I have linked a few links above as a food for thought in my comment above.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    There's so much BS in Razib's text, that I dont even bother to refute his every falsehood. But some are so glaring that I must refute them.


    They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).
     
    Roman statesman and historian Jordanes, who had lived for a some time among Huns and even met Attila, described how Attila looked in one of his surviving writings.

    "He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidence of his origin."


    Romans never described Germanic people in this way. In my opinion this description fits perfectly with a tanned steppe nomad man.


    It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians
     
    Its not only Muslim historians who wrote so, but Tibetan, Russian and Chinese too. There are multiple mentions in old Tibetan texts how this or that Lama argued with some Mongol Khan why he should not kill those Chinese under his rule, who were deemed useless by the Khan. Yes there are mentions in Tibetan texts how Mongols killed old and infirm Chinese because they were not productive enough. Anyway writing about "total extermination" is a straw man, no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man, just that they killed a huge part of some nation, or destroyed some city almost completely.

    Its clear that Mongol invasion changed dramatically demographics in Central Asia, but its maximalist to claim that native inhabitants were totally obliterated, as its also to claim that the change was slow and gradual, great part survived and mixed with the conquerors, and lost some of their culture, or why all records of Khorasmian language disappear after the Mongol conquest, even Soghdian survives as Yaghnobi language in Pamir mountains, so the invasion must have been quite shock for the sedentary populations of Amu darya.

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.
     
    All Turks are Turks except those raped Greeks, Armenians and Persians larping as Turks. IT'S SO FRICKING SIMPLE!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  81. @Blinky Bill
    @Vishnugupta

    Who is the Tajik and who is the Uzbek? Shall we ever truly know?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Central_Asian_Buddhist_Monks.jpeg


    Neither!

    The comment below was made by Razib Kahn over a decade ago and to the best of my limited knowledge, remains true.


    The genetic and linguistic affinities of two dozen ethno-linguistic groups from the three Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. This is what the Greeks referred to as Transoxiana, and the Persians as Turan. Originally inhabited by peoples with close cultural affinities with those of Persia, indeed, likely the root of the peoples of Persia, by the historical period Turan developed a distinctive identity as a frontier or march. It was in Turan where the Turk met the Iranian (a class which included non-Persian groups, such as the Sogdians), from the pre-Islamic Sassanians down to the present day. It is a region of the world which has a very ancient urban culture, cities such as Merv, as well as peoples that were only recently nomads, forcibly made sedentary by the Soviet regime.

    To add another twist to the picture many of the ethno-linguistic groups which we are familiar with today and which serve as the cores of the new Central Asian nations only came into being within the last few centuries, with a particular “push” from Russian Imperial and Soviet ethnologists who were tasked with fleshing out national identities with which the center could negotiate. A “Tajik” is after all simply part of the Persian-speaking residual population of Central Asia, spreading down into Afghanistan. The carving out of an independent Tajikistan out of the Central Asian landscape is as much a creation of the modern age as the state of Israel. The “Uzbek” identity was once simply that of the ruling caste of Transoxiana who came to power after the decline of the Timurids. Today it is an appellation which brackets the settled Turkic speaking peoples of Uzbekistan and beyond.

    Into this near Gordian knot of history and ideology walk the naive and well-meaning geneticists.

    Located in the Eurasian heartland, Central Asia has played a major role in both the early spread of modern humans out of Africa and the more recent settlements of differentiated populations across Eurasia. A detailed knowledge of the peopling in this vast region would therefore greatly improve our understanding of range expansions, colonizations and recurrent migrations, including the impact of the historical expansion of eastern nomadic groups that occurred in Central Asia. However, despite its presumable importance, little is known about the level and the distribution of genetic variation in this region. We genotyped 26 Indo-Iranian- and Turkic-speaking populations, belonging to six different ethnic groups, at 27 autosomal microsatellite loci. The analysis of genetic variation reveals that Central Asian diversity is mainly shaped by linguistic affiliation, with Turkic-speaking populations forming a cluster more closely related to East-Asian populations and Indo-Iranian speakers forming a cluster closer to Western Eurasians. The scattered position of Uzbeks across Turkic- and Indo-Iranian-speaking populations may reflect their origins from the union of different tribes. We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen. Contrary to what is generally thought, our results suggest that the recurrent expansions of eastern nomadic groups did not result in the complete replacement of local populations, but rather into partial admixture.

    In my initial comment on this paper in a link round-up I wondered what the authors were thinking making such a comment: anyone who knows Central Asians would see on their faces that the Turks did not completely replace the local populations. The image above is of an Uzbek man, who does not exhibit any visible “Mongolian” features. This is not the norm, but is not unheard of. Even populations which are presumed to have less Iranian admixture, such as the Kazakhs, exhibit a range of physical types. It would be one thing if this reference was an isolated peculiarity, but there are other comments within the paper which indicate to me that the research group’s familiarity with the non-genetic literature is cursory at best. They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Near the end of the paper they say something really peculiar: “The Westernized view of westward invasions usually emphasizes the extreme violence and cruelty of the hordes led by Attila the Hun (AD 406–453), or that from the Mongolian empire led by Genghis Khan. However, our results somehow challenge this view and rather suggest that these more recent expansions did not lead to the massacre and complete replacement of the locally settled populations….” It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians, for whom the Mongol conquests were totally shocking and a literal world-turned-upside-down moment. The Mongol conquests did seem to result in a decline in population between Mesopotamia and Transoxiana. Whole cities in Central Asia were depopulated. There is an assumption that the Mongol conquests marks the turning point where Central Asia passed from being a predominantly Iranian world with a Turkic military elite (which was to be the nature of Iran proper until the 20th century) to a Turkic world with a large Persian minority. Though the military conquests of the Mongols were important punctuating events, I do not believe that scholars today would assume that they produced an ethnic shift in toto. On the contrary, the null hypothesis is generally against migrationism.

    There’s a clear separation linguistically between Iranian speaking and Turkic speaking groups in Central Asia. Some of the Turkic groups are close to Iranian groups, closer than to other Turkic groups, but still the two broad sets have a coherent identity. Undergirding the linguistic variation is classical geographic variation. The eastern Turkic groups seem the least impacted by the Iranian substrate which was dominant before the arrival of Turks, while the Turcoman group sampled from western Uzbekistan seems to have been the most genetically “Iranized.” In a world wide context the central position of Central Asians is not surprising. Interestingly the Iranian groups of Central Asia seem to overlap rather well with the Indo-Iranian groups from the HGDP data set. In contrast, the Turkic groups are distributed along a linear axis from East Asians to the Iranian cluster. This is the same pattern evident among African Americans as individuals. It’s a two-way admixture, with different dosage degrees by population as a function of history and geography (I presume you’d see the same pattern if it was broken down on individuals with a SNP-chip).

    Yagnobis of Dushanbe. I happen to know offhand that the Yagnobis are reputed to be descendants of the Sogdians, having preserved their language and Zoroastrian religion relatively late in history before switching to Tajik and Islam. Like many ethno-linguistic relics these people preserved their independent identity after the Arab conquest, which saw the decline of Sogdian influence on the Silk Road, by taking refuge in isolated regions. It is no surprise then that this group shows the least East Asian admixture of all the Iranian samples, as they were isolated from many of the social and historical processes which were operative in Transoxiana after the conquest by the Arabs, and the later pushing in of the zone of Turkic hegemony after the fall of the Samanids.

    These admixture estimates definitely put the spotlight on the role of Central Asia as a nexus of sorts. In the archaeology and history it is clear that Central Asia has been affected by peoples of European, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and East Asian origin. Central Asia itself has been the mother of empires, famously the seat of Timur, but also the original base of what later became the Abbasid dynasty. At one point the Caliphate was split between western and eastern factions and there was a possibility that the capital would be relocated from Baghdad to the Central Asian city of Merv! I do not believe that the Arabs had a strong genetic impact, nor was there a large South Asian migration in recent periods into Central Asia. So the admixture estimates adduced for these groups may be due to the natural cline in allele frequencies which are found in different peripheral Eurasian populations. Frequencies which are naturally intermediate in Central Asia. The main caveat is that it is probable that local conditions will vary a great deal. In contrast we have strong reason to suspect that the East Asian component arrived relatively recently with the Turks, and we see that its aspect is most evident among the groups which were nomadic within living memory, the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. These two ethnicities, which are really compounds of several tribes or “hordes,” were only marginally integrated into sedentary Islamic society where the Tajik element would be prominent (shamanism among many of these tribes only disappeared under the influence of the Islamic missionaries sponsored by Russian Empire). I think this pattern is reinforced by what we saw in the correspondence analysis, where the Turkic groups exhibited a linear distribution toward East Asia, while the Iranian ones were placed where you’d expect them geographically. Finally, I want to note that Dienekes observes that using South Asians as a Central Asian population source is strange since South Asia is more appropriately thought of as a demographic sink for Turan. True, but the HGDP populations are strongly biased toward groups with relatively little indigenous South Asian ancestry, with the Sindhi being the only Indo-Aryan speakers within the set. So I think that objection is mitigated by these factors. Rather, the Iranian-speaking Pakistani groups serve as proxies for the original Central Asian Iranian substrate, from which both they and the Tajiks presumably derive.

    Moving back to the Turk vs. Iranian distinction, the authors note that the Turkic groups exhibit a strong degree of genetic homogeneity on the Y chromosomal lineages. This points to the possible manner in which the East Asian genetic element spread in Central Asia, not necessarily just through population displacement, but also through polygamy and the high reproductive fitness of particular “super-male” lineages. The children of elite Turkic men who took Iranian wives presumably adopted the culture of their fathers, including the linguistic identity. This may have been particularly easy in Central Asia because they did not have to repudiate their maternal heritage in totality, as Persian culture still had great status and currency. If we partition the ancestry into “East Eurasian” and “West Eurasian” components the Turkic groups have much more of the latter than the Iranian ones have of the former. That stands to reason as the Turks were newcomers, and an elite which the locals would wish to assimilate to if they had the opportunity. In contrast, the shift from Turk to Iranian may have been rarer, and a switch which individuals would wish to avoid since the latter did not have the same level of temporal power. Over ~1,500 years gene flow does occur between the groups, and even the Yagnobis have appreciable East Asian ancestry. Eventually the linguistic differences would probably be dwarfed by the geographical ones, but currently we’re taking a snapshot of a “transient.”

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    The Indo-European looking monk is probably a Kushan and the Oriental looking monk is probably a Han Chinese.

    The whole origin of the Turkic populations and the acculturation of the ancient Indo-Iranian peoples of Turan to the adoption of Turkic languages is a very interesting topic. Especially when one takes note of impact the Xiongnu and Spenta Huna have probably had on the region. That is why I have linked a few links above as a food for thought in my comment above.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  82. Karlin is in error I think. The lower fertility in Uzbekistan will only start to effect Russia after the next 25-30 years.

    For the 25-30 years from now until then , the very high fertility of the last 15 years there will have resulted in abundance of working age Uzbeks coming further to all parts of Russia ,as there is simply not enough jobs created in Uzbekistan for the abundance of young working age population.

    Karimov was a very bad strategic long-term thinker compared to Aliyev and Nazarbayev

  83. Tajik genetics is more aryan than the Greek one or at least roughly the same.

    Just saying.

    You can check it out for yourself if you have the time – I mean the haplogroup studies.
    Compared to Indians, they’re definitely white, except for a few upper caste groups, but even then no, because even upper caste Indians are maternally of the same stock as their lower-caste brethren.

    BUT, psssst, Aryan invasion did not happen. Pre-aryan Indians just voluntarily gave this group of men their women…

    • Troll: Kent Nationalist
  84. Maybe Russia should encourage Russians in the Baltic states and Kazakhstan to emigrate en masse to Russia, since they are clearly not wanted there. And Moscow is clearly not willing to do anything to better their welfare in their host countries.

    • Replies: @mal
    @128

    I don't know about Kazakhstan, but it has happened in the Baltics. Baltics lost about 2 million people since USSR dissolution which is a lot for them as they only have 6 million in between the three of them. A lot of people left for Russia.

  85. @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.
     
    In the long run, that is a distinction without a difference. This generation will accept "just a few" and the next generation will accept "just a few" and so on, and before you know it, it's no longer just a few.

    And of course with the passage of time and the substitution of cuckfaggot wishful thinking for hardheaded analysis - nothing simpler than to pour scorn on "purists" who warn of the long-term dangers - intermixture accelerates to the point where it becomes politically impossible to determine how much mixture is "too much" so the result is that everyone is accepted, so that even if, by some miracle, a mass movement against racial replacement occurred, it would almost certainly fail. And then once that agitation quells, the next generation of cucks once again introduces the idea of "just a few" immigrants....

    So, though it pains me to do so, I can only laugh at these slavs you claim to have spoken to, who consider themselves oh so much wiser than the western cucklings they're comparing themselves to, because with their thinking, the end result for them is unlikely to be markedly different to the west's dismal fate.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Daniel Chieh

    I strongly have to disagree here. Human history has always been the case of “just a few”, right back when the first tribes started to comingle. Look at the gene pools of people and it is made up of tribes that have simply vanished into time and space. It is evolution and a normal part of Human existence. The main group gets some new DNA and continues onwards.

    Russia is not unique in this. As the saying goes, “scratch a Russian, find a Tartar.” This essentially will be the same case with the Central Asians down the road as it was for the Mongols and Tartars before them. Basically nothing to see here.

    The other option is colonisation where one group ultimately wipes out the other through mass mixing and large scale settlement population. The former would be India and the latter America.

    If I was to make a statement, I would say the West is more the case of the India scenario. Mass groups of people moving in that will submerge the host into a new population.

    But in saying that, times have changed now. Life is more urban and less about tribes. So I suspect the new migrants eventually coalescing to low birth rates in the cities with Karlins breeder theory taking root in the rural areas (which is mainly staying in traditional demographic territory i.e white)

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Hartnell

    Europeans exist in 2021 because for thousands of years they bred almost exclusively with other Europeans. Infusions into that genepool over that time period were indeed "just a few."

    The infusions that have recently entered it, and which will in due course enter it, cannot at all be characterized as "just a few." Indeed, they will be quite sufficient to submerge Europeans, leaving little remaining of the European familiar to us today, and in the fullness of time will snuff him out completely.

    Could eastern Europe and Russia evade this fate? They certainly could, though that would require facing up to racial reality - the actual conditions required to sustain racial existence - and not sedating themselves with fanciful happy talk that all will be well because it's "just a few."

  86. @128
    Maybe Russia should encourage Russians in the Baltic states and Kazakhstan to emigrate en masse to Russia, since they are clearly not wanted there. And Moscow is clearly not willing to do anything to better their welfare in their host countries.

    Replies: @mal

    I don’t know about Kazakhstan, but it has happened in the Baltics. Baltics lost about 2 million people since USSR dissolution which is a lot for them as they only have 6 million in between the three of them. A lot of people left for Russia.

  87. Number of “titled” chess players in selected countries (one of my measures of the sensibility and temperament of a country. Not adjusted for population.)

    Russia – Rank 1 in world – 2340
    USA 3. – 671
    Ukraine – 4. – 510
    Kazakhstan – 26. – 141
    Norway – 34. – 116

    I play a few dozen online fast games every day against average (not titled) players. My subjective feeling is that Russian players tend to play what chess players call “quiet moves” more so than do Americans, who are more adventuresome and reckless.

  88. Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people – but didn’t the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let’s be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today’s Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke’s Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason – innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris – mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race – and I like what I see.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @AaronB


    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    Is Brazil really all that exciting?

    Why is this to be so feared?
     
    Because it's better to racially live on than to racially die off?

    Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe?
     
    Well, if you're a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it's very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that's happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn't be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Radicalcenter

    , @songbird
    @AaronB


    a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    According to one study, the DNA of Dominicans is 52.15% European, 39.57% Sub-Saharan African, and 8.28% Native American. That seems to not be too far from what you envision.

    Though curiously, Trujillo's generous offer of, I believe it was, >100,000 free visas to any unmarried Jews in WW2-era Europe went almost entirely unfulfilled. And the handful of Jews who did take it up mostly used DR as a stepping stone, though there might be a half a dozen or so families that remain, doing well in local businesses.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AaronB

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @AaronB

    A world of brown, black-haired, 90 IQ people with no religion or ethnic identity but who all love Avengers Return XXVII sounds thrilling

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @utu
    @AaronB

    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting? - No. Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was before you.


    The man of the future will be a mongrel. Today’s races and classes will disappear owing to the disappearing of space, time, and prejudice.

    The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its outward appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

    Russian Bolshevism constitutes a decisive step towards this purpose where a small group of communist spiritual aristocrats govern the country and consciously break with the plutocratic [plutocratic = rule or power through wealth] democratism which nowadays controls the rest of the world.

    The fight between Capitalism and Communism over the inheritance of the beseeched blood aristocracy is a fratricidal war of the victorious brain aristocracy, a fight between individualistic and socialist, egoist and altruist, heathen and Christian spirit.

    The general staff of both parties is recruited from Europe’s spiritual leader race [Führerrasse] the Jews.

    The main representatives of the corrupt as well as the upright brain aristocracy: of capitalism, journalism and the literate are Jews.

    The superiority of their spirit predestines them to become a main factor of the future nobility.

    Therefore a gracious Providence provided Europe with a new race of nobility through spiritual grace.

    With these two attempts to redemption of a spiritual-moral origin, Jewry has bestowed a greater gift on to the disinherited masses of Europe than any other people.

    How modern Jewry also surpasses all other peoples in percentage of important men: scarcely one century after its liberation this small people stands with Einstein at the frontrunner of modern science; with Mahler as the frontrunner of modern music, with Bergson as a frontrunner of modern philosophy, with Trotsky as the frontrunner of modern politics

    Not only Jewry will move in the direction of the Western aristocratic ideals – also the Western aristocratic ideal will experience a transformation which will meet Jewry half way.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AaronB

    , @Radicalcenter
    @AaronB

    This is such a great idea that Israel should try it first! Not with this lame, barely diverse “Oriental Jews”, but with Africans as you’re urging on Europe. Come on, why go halfway, bubela.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    "European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself? "

    "...might this not lead to something exciting and new? "

    "Why is this to be so feared?"

    Yes, for it's the destiny of most peoples and nations to wither away and die, unlike the chosen nation! Some folks ain't just special enough, so it's "exciting" that they break down.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @EldnahYm
    @AaronB


    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people – but didn’t the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let’s be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today’s Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.
     
    I'm not sure how significant the Germanic admixture was in Italy. My understanding is that the fall of the Roman Empire led to a decline in "exotic" ancestry there, probably because cities were demographic sinks.

    I would modify your statement about the Romans by saying say they were excellent at systematizing(which poor thinkers will not do well). But they were not very inventive.

    European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself?
     
    It depends what you mean. Right now western countries are in a state of demographic and cultural decline. You could call that civilizational exhaustion. On the other hand, if you mean to ask have the ideas of European civilization exhausted themselves, I would say no. For example, evolutionary theory has yet to have its day in the sun in terms of its application to humanity. Ideas like eugenics went out of fashion after WW2, and even formulating certain hypotheses about for example group differences is controversial. The idea of natural selection is under 200 years old, the evolutionary synthesis is less than 100 years old, and high throughput sequencing is a little over 20 years old. The field is really only just getting started.

    I don't see much evidence that greater race mixing is solving 21st century man's problems. One could for example posit that the Classical tradition in music had exhausted itself by the second half of the 20th century. Whether one accepts that idea or not, what I don't see is anything offered by anyone else that even approximates the greatness of western classical music. So even if we accept the premise that western civilization has exhausted itself, it does not follow that mixing with people from elsewhere will improve anything. My view is that much of the cultural agglomeration that is occurring is destroying most of what is interesting about people around the world and that it is contributing to greater atomization, consumerism, etc.

    Most of what I see in countries outside of the west is just copying. Everyone has the same architecture, same music, same declining fertility as the economy grows, etc. China's modernization project for example is essentially just taking advantage of the larger scale of China's population to beat the West at its own game. So they can construct ugly buildings more quickly than Western countries can.

    Cultures don't necessarily need large scale immigration of newcomers to change drastically. Isolation is a powerful driver of cultural development. Note that most(if not all) of what we consider special about ancient Greece came after the Greek Dark Ages. Prior to the Greek Dark Ages you had a culture more uniform and interconnected with the near East. This was followed by a period with more varied cultural forms and more isolation from the outside world. This would be followed by new cultural syntheses, different from the old Mycenaean civilization.

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    I would make the opposite argument. Just for a handful of examples, Madagascar, the Canary Islands, Central Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, South Africa(cape Coloureds), all have various "interesting" mixtures. But I wouldn't these peoples have had an inordinately high amount of contributions. I think the Nordic phenotype is more worthy of preservation.

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?
     
    If you go back far enough, the people in Europe will look very different from the people there today. Does it follow from this observation that some particular future genetic change is necessary or good? Nope.

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke’s Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason – innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris – mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.
     
    I don't see any need for a new particular character in Western man. The Romantic movement in Europe was about as radical an attack on Enlightenment values as can be articulated. Its ideas are out of fashion, but they do not have to remain so. Also John Locke's idea of the blank slate is contradicted by evolutionary theory. The West has more than enough ammunition with which to destroy these ideas without having to look for outside input.
  89. @Hartnell
    @silviosilver

    I strongly have to disagree here. Human history has always been the case of "just a few", right back when the first tribes started to comingle. Look at the gene pools of people and it is made up of tribes that have simply vanished into time and space. It is evolution and a normal part of Human existence. The main group gets some new DNA and continues onwards.

    Russia is not unique in this. As the saying goes, "scratch a Russian, find a Tartar." This essentially will be the same case with the Central Asians down the road as it was for the Mongols and Tartars before them. Basically nothing to see here.

    The other option is colonisation where one group ultimately wipes out the other through mass mixing and large scale settlement population. The former would be India and the latter America.

    If I was to make a statement, I would say the West is more the case of the India scenario. Mass groups of people moving in that will submerge the host into a new population.

    But in saying that, times have changed now. Life is more urban and less about tribes. So I suspect the new migrants eventually coalescing to low birth rates in the cities with Karlins breeder theory taking root in the rural areas (which is mainly staying in traditional demographic territory i.e white)

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Europeans exist in 2021 because for thousands of years they bred almost exclusively with other Europeans. Infusions into that genepool over that time period were indeed “just a few.”

    The infusions that have recently entered it, and which will in due course enter it, cannot at all be characterized as “just a few.” Indeed, they will be quite sufficient to submerge Europeans, leaving little remaining of the European familiar to us today, and in the fullness of time will snuff him out completely.

    Could eastern Europe and Russia evade this fate? They certainly could, though that would require facing up to racial reality – the actual conditions required to sustain racial existence – and not sedating themselves with fanciful happy talk that all will be well because it’s “just a few.”

    • Agree: Radicalcenter
  90. @Beckow

    ...Just 68 Indians.
     
    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the 'plague', not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague. And how many Chinese?

    Tajiks are great: good looking women, Indo-European language, an ancient culture. Many coming from Uzbekistan are probably also Tajiks (Samarkand is a Tajik city).

    Overall, if the Washingtonians don't succeed, Russia is looking at a pretty good future with huge resources and a relatively normal, well educated, decent IQ population. It is driving the Georgetown-Oxbridge crowd crazy - so they are about to escalate...

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny, @Ludwig, @songbird, @Servant of Gla'aki

    The plague has been endemic to the Sierra Nevada of Northern California for 150 years. My parents contracted it in the 1970s, while we were camping. It is quite rare, however.

  91. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Is Brazil really all that exciting?

    Why is this to be so feared?

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off?

    Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe?

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    • Thanks: Radicalcenter
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @silviosilver


    Is Brazil really all that exciting
     
    ?

    That's a fair point. Brazil is one option. But post Roman collapse Northern Italy is another.

    I agree that you have a legitimate concern in getting the proportions right.

    I have always said I am glad Ethiopians immigrated to Israel, but would not want them to overwhelm the existing ethnic balance.

    But a 70% White majority receiving a 30% introgression? That likely won't end in Brazil.

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off
     
    But who is dying off? Some parts of the White race are being modified by the infusion of new blood. But the old phenotypes will remain. It's still possible to find classic Roman types in Italy.

    Among Hasidic Jews, you will find quite a few blond and blue eyes kids.

    But the generic material of the White race us not dying off in the scenario I outlined - I mentioned outright extermination or replacement would be a legitimate concern.

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.
     
    Being called a mendavious Jew piece of shit on this site neither bothers me no surprises me - it's one of the nicer things I've been called :)

    I am aware of what site I am on lol.

    Certainly, the pattern I described isn't characteristic of all Europe. Scandinavia doesn't seem to have ever received any foreign racial mixture for instance.

    But Rome towards the end of the Empire for instance was majority Near Eastern origin, and the Germanic invasions obviously.

    Spain is an amalgamation of Gothic, Moorish, Jewish, and Punic elements. Quite heterogeneous I'd say.

    But the main question is - why fear the creation of a new race? At least one must acknowledge it can create new possibilities. A new and exciting civilization.

    Maybe not. It may lead to a worse civilization. That's also a possibility.

    Ashkenazi Jews for instance are a new race created by mixture - they are unlike the ancient Hebrew race yet descended from them. They exhibited some extraordinary new qualities not found in their ancestors, at least not to the same degree.

    Oh well, I guess for some people absolute purity of race is a really big deal, and they don't see the world as a dynamic system like I do, so I shouldn't be surprised at your hostile response :)

    I think race and ethnicity are a concern, but I'm not a purist about it. Plus I see change and development - and later collapse - as essential processes of nature, so I'm not saddened by the death of the old and am excited by the emergence of the new.

    The old Ashkenazi Sabras were a tough and remarkable bunch of adventurers, but I do not lament their mixing into a new race.

    To each his own I suppose.

    Replies: @Radicalcenter

    , @Radicalcenter
    @silviosilver

    I beg to differ, Sil. Brazil sure is exciting. Running to escape a rape or mugging gets the heart pumping, blood flowing, is great exercise and makes you feel alive. Aaron is a heck of a guy to want the same African enrichment for Europe. I can see that he sincerely has the best interests of Europeans at heart.

  92. @Hartnell
    To be honest, should the current form of globalisation continue (and I expect that it will), immigration to other countries is inevitable. I fully expect countries like Russia and even places like Poland and Hungary to have their minority populations firmly established eventually. However such minorities eventually 'whiten up' so its not a huge issue in the long run (unless you are a purist)

    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.

    What the West ultimately seeks is nothing more than the birth of a new globalised man, the perfect new coffee coloured collective that will bring absolute unity and peace throughout the world. The mass destruction of traditional white communities is a necessary evil to achieve this great utopia.

    On current trends, I predict that Western countries will be majority-minority within 30 years (mainly the cities with the rural hinterlands belonging to the traditional demographic) where as the majority of Russian and EE citiew wont really see too much of a change.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver, @Dmitry

    Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world’s largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government’s policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be “safe” from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.


    For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India’s economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It’s possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Dmitry


    It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.
     
    Eventually? In nominal GDP per capita China and Russia is about equal. Of course Russian currency is volatile and undervalued and in PPP Russia is still ahead 60%. But the richer regions of China should already be more than rich enough for poor Central Asians to want to immigrate to. But the fact is that China simply hasn't opened up for large scale worker immigration so it isn't happening.

    I also suspect that if China starts taking in millions of immigrants they'll start with Southeast Asia.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @antibeast
    @Dmitry

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.


     

    Spain is hardly 'flooded' with Chinese immigrants which number some 200,000, behind Morocco, Romania, Columbia, UK, Italy and other Latin American countries from where hundreds of thousands of immigrants have naturalized to become Spanish Citizens.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).


     

    The top 15 cities in China with a combined population of 260 million have a GDP per capita exceeding USD20K. And yet Africa hosts a population of 2 million Chinese immigrants while Europe hosts half as many at 1 million. So GDP per capita is not the reason why Chinese emigrate to Africa or Europe where they seek economic opportunities not as 'laborers' but as 'entrepreneurs', mostly in family-owned trading businesses as importers, wholesalers and retailers. Africans are poorer than Europeans, thus creating a larger market for cheaper Chinese-made goods than Europe which explains the larger number of Chinese immigrants in Africa, plying their trade selling those Chinese goods to Africans.

    That's true in much of the 'developing' world in Africa, Asia and Latin America where Chinese immigrants have established business networks to distribute Chinese-made goods since the 80s. But that 'cross-border trade' is dying as Chinese multinationals have arrived to either manufacture and/or distribute Chinese goods, directly to those markets outside of China.

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level
     
    This (with reservations) is true only for the post-Soviet space. Otherwise, Russia has sharply anti-immigrant legislation
  93. @silviosilver
    @AaronB


    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    Is Brazil really all that exciting?

    Why is this to be so feared?
     
    Because it's better to racially live on than to racially die off?

    Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe?
     
    Well, if you're a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it's very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that's happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn't be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Radicalcenter

    Is Brazil really all that exciting

    ?

    That’s a fair point. Brazil is one option. But post Roman collapse Northern Italy is another.

    I agree that you have a legitimate concern in getting the proportions right.

    I have always said I am glad Ethiopians immigrated to Israel, but would not want them to overwhelm the existing ethnic balance.

    But a 70% White majority receiving a 30% introgression? That likely won’t end in Brazil.

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off

    But who is dying off? Some parts of the White race are being modified by the infusion of new blood. But the old phenotypes will remain. It’s still possible to find classic Roman types in Italy.

    Among Hasidic Jews, you will find quite a few blond and blue eyes kids.

    But the generic material of the White race us not dying off in the scenario I outlined – I mentioned outright extermination or replacement would be a legitimate concern.

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    Being called a mendavious Jew piece of shit on this site neither bothers me no surprises me – it’s one of the nicer things I’ve been called 🙂

    I am aware of what site I am on lol.

    Certainly, the pattern I described isn’t characteristic of all Europe. Scandinavia doesn’t seem to have ever received any foreign racial mixture for instance.

    But Rome towards the end of the Empire for instance was majority Near Eastern origin, and the Germanic invasions obviously.

    Spain is an amalgamation of Gothic, Moorish, Jewish, and Punic elements. Quite heterogeneous I’d say.

    But the main question is – why fear the creation of a new race? At least one must acknowledge it can create new possibilities. A new and exciting civilization.

    Maybe not. It may lead to a worse civilization. That’s also a possibility.

    Ashkenazi Jews for instance are a new race created by mixture – they are unlike the ancient Hebrew race yet descended from them. They exhibited some extraordinary new qualities not found in their ancestors, at least not to the same degree.

    Oh well, I guess for some people absolute purity of race is a really big deal, and they don’t see the world as a dynamic system like I do, so I shouldn’t be surprised at your hostile response 🙂

    I think race and ethnicity are a concern, but I’m not a purist about it. Plus I see change and development – and later collapse – as essential processes of nature, so I’m not saddened by the death of the old and am excited by the emergence of the new.

    The old Ashkenazi Sabras were a tough and remarkable bunch of adventurers, but I do not lament their mixing into a new race.

    To each his own I suppose.

    • Replies: @Radicalcenter
    @AaronB

    To their good fortune, your Ashkenazi forebears mixed en masse with Italians, and to a lesser extent with Germanics and Slavs. That is a far cry from mass mixing with Africans or Pakistanis/Indians, and you know it.

    If not, tell us about your efforts to convince Israelis to open their doors wide to mass African, Arab, and Pakistani/Indian immigration..... (cue the John Derbyshire crickets)

    Also, you should take the lead and marry and procreate with an African or Pakistani. It would be a Schande if you didn’t follow your own advice. And be sure to post some wedding photos.

    Replies: @AaronB

  94. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    According to one study, the DNA of Dominicans is 52.15% European, 39.57% Sub-Saharan African, and 8.28% Native American. That seems to not be too far from what you envision.

    Though curiously, Trujillo’s generous offer of, I believe it was, >100,000 free visas to any unmarried Jews in WW2-era Europe went almost entirely unfulfilled. And the handful of Jews who did take it up mostly used DR as a stepping stone, though there might be a half a dozen or so families that remain, doing well in local businesses.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @songbird

    That does not sound promising, I'll grant you.

    The lesson might be that too high a percentage of sub-saharan Black - at least at the present time - is not optimum.

    Obviously, not all mixtures are a hit. Italy went on to further and new glories. Greece became a backwater.

    I can see Blacks adding a useful element in the right proportion - an easy going joie de vivre sorely lacking in dour northerners, perhaps. But clearly, at the moment too a high a Black proportion isn't optimum.

    But the larger point is that it is an interesting possibility to consider - the main established races are familiar and boring. Could it not be exciting to have something new?

    And btw, please not I include my own people here. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are mixing at a high rate with brown Jews. What is coming out of that is to me interesting so far.

    Sure, nature makes many experiments, and only some are a success - but racial experiments have been going on for all of hunan history.

    The idea of preserving absolutely pure races means making no more experiments. The results of all past experiments are finally set in stone. Does nature work this way?

    I will grant you that race and ethnicity should be a core concern, but I think being a purist about it is misguided. And I think Europe already has enough immigrants and no more are necessary. I'm just exploring an interesting possibility.

    If Europe shut the door now and a process of racial assimilation began, would this be one of natures successful experiments or would Europe become a sleepy backwater like Greece, her glories behind her?

    Realistically, much of Europe was in some level of ethnic ferment until about 1500, some more some less- at that time, nations congealed and the results of past mixing began to show what they could do. For about 500 years, there was little to no ethnic ferment within Europe.

    Now there is a period of breakdown and ferment again. It could go too far and end in disaster - or it could end in exciting new possibilities.

    I will also accept that Europe never integrated a substantial Black popukation, except for the Portuguese as far as I understand. And that seems to have been a limited success - a great age of exploration and Empire briefly but not much else.

    , @AaronB
    @songbird

    Btw, I don't have a problem with anyone being a racial purist.

    Humans have to divide into groups on some basis, and as German Reader pointed out on the other thread, same race groups dividing on lines other than race have historically caused the most bloodshed and suffering.

    So dividing on the basis of race is not especially bad.

    If race seems the most relevant division to you, I would not object to you marking off your group on the basis of race.

    For me, race and ethnicity are of concern, but I'm much more flexible about it obviously.

    I'm just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned - the creation of a new race or ethnicity. Admittedly this could be a disaster, or it could be very cool.

    Replies: @songbird

  95. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world's largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government's policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be "safe" from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It's not impossible that China's economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    -
    For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India's economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It's possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    https://i.imgur.com/bQkDyw6.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @antibeast, @melanf

    It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    Eventually? In nominal GDP per capita China and Russia is about equal. Of course Russian currency is volatile and undervalued and in PPP Russia is still ahead 60%. But the richer regions of China should already be more than rich enough for poor Central Asians to want to immigrate to. But the fact is that China simply hasn’t opened up for large scale worker immigration so it isn’t happening.

    I also suspect that if China starts taking in millions of immigrants they’ll start with Southeast Asia.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Shortsword

    The Philippines alone has 110 million people compared to 75 million for the whole of Central Asia combined. Muslim/Central Asian immigration will never be allowed into Xinjiang/Western China, for reasons obvious to all. How close to Eastern China is the Philippines, versus how close it's to Uzbek population centers. The logic is clear. The Chinese worry about Central Asian Islamists, not the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.

    Who here has dealt with both Tajik/Uzbek and also Pinoy service workers?

    Anyone care to make a comparison?

  96. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    A world of brown, black-haired, 90 IQ people with no religion or ethnic identity but who all love Avengers Return XXVII sounds thrilling

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Kent Nationalist

    https://youtu.be/IQuc7wfO16Q

    Replies: @songbird, @Kent Nationalist

  97. @songbird
    @AaronB


    a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    According to one study, the DNA of Dominicans is 52.15% European, 39.57% Sub-Saharan African, and 8.28% Native American. That seems to not be too far from what you envision.

    Though curiously, Trujillo's generous offer of, I believe it was, >100,000 free visas to any unmarried Jews in WW2-era Europe went almost entirely unfulfilled. And the handful of Jews who did take it up mostly used DR as a stepping stone, though there might be a half a dozen or so families that remain, doing well in local businesses.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AaronB

    That does not sound promising, I’ll grant you.

    The lesson might be that too high a percentage of sub-saharan Black – at least at the present time – is not optimum.

    Obviously, not all mixtures are a hit. Italy went on to further and new glories. Greece became a backwater.

    I can see Blacks adding a useful element in the right proportion – an easy going joie de vivre sorely lacking in dour northerners, perhaps. But clearly, at the moment too a high a Black proportion isn’t optimum.

    But the larger point is that it is an interesting possibility to consider – the main established races are familiar and boring. Could it not be exciting to have something new?

    And btw, please not I include my own people here. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are mixing at a high rate with brown Jews. What is coming out of that is to me interesting so far.

    Sure, nature makes many experiments, and only some are a success – but racial experiments have been going on for all of hunan history.

    The idea of preserving absolutely pure races means making no more experiments. The results of all past experiments are finally set in stone. Does nature work this way?

    I will grant you that race and ethnicity should be a core concern, but I think being a purist about it is misguided. And I think Europe already has enough immigrants and no more are necessary. I’m just exploring an interesting possibility.

    If Europe shut the door now and a process of racial assimilation began, would this be one of natures successful experiments or would Europe become a sleepy backwater like Greece, her glories behind her?

    Realistically, much of Europe was in some level of ethnic ferment until about 1500, some more some less- at that time, nations congealed and the results of past mixing began to show what they could do. For about 500 years, there was little to no ethnic ferment within Europe.

    Now there is a period of breakdown and ferment again. It could go too far and end in disaster – or it could end in exciting new possibilities.

    I will also accept that Europe never integrated a substantial Black popukation, except for the Portuguese as far as I understand. And that seems to have been a limited success – a great age of exploration and Empire briefly but not much else.

  98. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    …the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category

    Liberals call it virtuous judgment and do it freely to white, Christian, normal-gender males, and in particular to eastern Europeans – Russians being lumped with abandon. Indians are masters and pioneers in this ‘lump the whitey’ sport. Maybe they are trying to please, or maybe they simply hate white people. And more white a group is, more they hate. Your crocodile tears are wasted.

    Mass migration from South Asia is in a class of its own: the numbers potentially involved dwarf everything except sub-Saharan Africans. Their cliquishness and insane self-promotion attacks the core of Western societies – as you pointed out, they manage to steal more, capture more cushy spots, and in general suck more out of the West than almost any other migrant group. Yes, they tend not to be violent and are in general law-abiding – still their impact on natives’ living standards and opportunities ( for the younger people) has been more devastating.

    But you gave yourself away with the ‘casual racism‘ phrase. Right, we are all ‘racist’ if we don’t submit and give up. I get that is what the likes of you think. But do you have any other thoughts? And it’s good to know that plague is under control under India, are other diseases?

    • Replies: @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Mass migration from South Asia is in a class of its own: the numbers potentially involved dwarf everything except sub-Saharan Africans. Their cliquishness and insane self-promotion attacks the core of Western societies – as you pointed out, they manage to steal more, capture more cushy spots, and in general suck more out of the West than almost any other migrant group. Yes, they tend not to be violent and are in general law-abiding – still their impact on natives’ living standards and opportunities ( for the younger people) has been more devastating.
     
    And what is the “core” of Western societies? If there was ever a group that is into self-promotion it is Western societies who have deemed themselves superior to all others.

    And suck more out of the West?? Do you seriously think that the US could maintain its current dominance without skilled immigration? Without skilled migration to keep growing, the US would predominantly be left with morons like you who because they cannot compete with skilled immigrants bitch about how they are stealing your job and disturb your thoughts of Western glory. I have managed large tech and finance groups in the US and by merit alone the best were Russian/Ukrainian/Belarus, Hungarians, Indians, Chinese/Taiwanese immigrants from top schools in their countries with generational Americans with a couple of exceptions near the bottom. (Their use was for more verbal presentations to top management/clients while the immigrants did the actual work.)


    But you gave yourself away with the ‘casual racism‘ phrase. Right, we are all ‘racist’ if we don’t submit and give up. I get that is what the likes of you think. But do you have any other thoughts? And it’s good to know that plague is under control under India, are other diseases?
     
    I don’t have a problem with your racism per se. I have a problem with your logic in equating skilled immigrants to some cartoonish version of your understanding of some of their compatriots in their home countries. It’s like “Ooh Sundar Pichai probably spreads cooties because they have cooties in India”. You display the kind of ignorance that is precisely why without skilled immigrants, the US wouldn’t be able to grow.
  99. @Kent Nationalist
    @AaronB

    A world of brown, black-haired, 90 IQ people with no religion or ethnic identity but who all love Avengers Return XXVII sounds thrilling

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    LOL. I thought it was funny when they tried to pass Vin Diesel off as Italian (another movie), but, then again, I am not Italian and am angered by the numerous attempts of Hollywood to pass Italians and half-Italians off as the dark-haired phenotype of Irish people. (I suspect Jewish collusion.)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Blinky Bill


    Though the U.S. census says Hispanics comprise 15% of the population, the group made up a whopping 46% of the “Fast”audience, according to exit polling data conducted by the studio.

     


    Other studios have found similar success with a diverse group of pictures, including Disney’s “Beverly Hills Chihuahua,”20th Century Fox’s “Alvin and the Chipmunks", Paramount’s “Transformers,” Lionsgate’s Jackie Chan-Jet Li fantasy actioner “The Forbidden Kingdom” and U’s “The Incredible Hulk."
     
    https://hispanic-marketing.com/fast-furious-taps-into-hispanic-audiences/
  100. @songbird
    @AaronB


    a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    According to one study, the DNA of Dominicans is 52.15% European, 39.57% Sub-Saharan African, and 8.28% Native American. That seems to not be too far from what you envision.

    Though curiously, Trujillo's generous offer of, I believe it was, >100,000 free visas to any unmarried Jews in WW2-era Europe went almost entirely unfulfilled. And the handful of Jews who did take it up mostly used DR as a stepping stone, though there might be a half a dozen or so families that remain, doing well in local businesses.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AaronB

    Btw, I don’t have a problem with anyone being a racial purist.

    Humans have to divide into groups on some basis, and as German Reader pointed out on the other thread, same race groups dividing on lines other than race have historically caused the most bloodshed and suffering.

    So dividing on the basis of race is not especially bad.

    If race seems the most relevant division to you, I would not object to you marking off your group on the basis of race.

    For me, race and ethnicity are of concern, but I’m much more flexible about it obviously.

    I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity. Admittedly this could be a disaster, or it could be very cool.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AaronB


    I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity.
     
    I don't particularly desire it - probably mostly because artistic cultural formation in modern times seems to be non-exisant - but I think probably there will be a new ethnogenesis within Europe among Europeans.

    Probably not a full one - not a complete abolition of subtypes, but (mixed, though racially pure) people might increasingly identify as Scandinavians, Germanics, Celts, Slavs, NW Europeans, Northern Europeans, or Meds. I'm not sure these people will truly have their own culture, but perhaps it still counts as new ethnicities, if the numbers reach a certain threshold. In theory, it would be aided by the possible adoption of passports made using genetic distance (which I advocate for - Russians who want eventual reunification with Ukraine, please, take note.)

    Though, I'm not sure that the formation of new races is even technically possible. That is, beyond where it is already in an advanced process, like parts of Latin America. In a technical sense, it takes probably thousands of years. The DNA needs to be broken down into small pieces and gradients destroyed. I think this would require both forced miscegenation and a full societal collapse that brought back a strong element of natural selection.

    Replies: @AaronB

  101. @128
    Putin should have agitated for increased autonomy for Russians in Northern Kazakhstan a long time ago, considering that Kazakhstan is even weaker than the Ukraine.

    Replies: @songbird, @Radicalcenter

    When the USSR disbanded, Russia should have kept Estonia, Latvia, and northernmost Kazakhstan. Gonna be hard to get them back and hold them now, especially if the number of ethnic Russians continues to decline.

  102. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    As an American, I volunteer to give them all our Indians, for free.

    • Replies: @Radicalcenter
    @Radicalcenter

    Prominent Indian and part-Indian people in US politics and government don’t help the case for this supposed “social and economic benefit” of Indians to the host country. Warmongering Republican liar Nikki Haley (former governor of South Carolina, to the discredit of South Carolinians); corrupt, vicious, and fraudulently selected Democrat VP Kamala Harris; and Republican grifter Bobby Jindal (former governor of Louisiana) are examples that come to mind.

    And we didn’t have any pressing need for more cold-hearted fraudulent-billing doctors, surly motel owners, tax-evading cash convenience store owners, or overrated programmers and consultants who take jobs from native IT professionals and lower wages while often doing a mediocre job.

    E.g., Indian doctor in NJ: https://www.sagar.com/desi-doctor-indicted-for-billing-fraud.html#:~:text=New%20Jersey%20Indian%20Doctor%20Gautam%20Sehgal%20Indicted%20for,himself%20or%20that%20were%20not%20performed%20at%20all.

    Indian doctor in Ohio: https://www.leagle.com/decision/20051249355fsupp2d89411161

    Indian doctor in Florida: https://fraudscrookscriminals.com/2019/02/04/florida-indian-american-pain-doctor-sentenced-in-medicare-fraud-case/

    Indian doctor in New York: https://www.newsindiatimes.com/indian-american-doctor-gets-18-month-prison-sentence-in-30-million-healthcare-fraud-in-n-y/

    Russia shouldn’t make the same mistake that the USA has made in admitting this nepotistic, disloyal Fifth Column from India. Russia simply should not risk permanent settlement and citizenship for anyone other than Russian-speaking, Christian European and Eurasian people. Tourist visas, education visas, business visas, absolutely, and a warm welcome for well-behaved useful temporary visitors from India like anywhere else.

    Replies: @Ludwig

  103. @silviosilver
    @Hartnell


    The key difference though is between a bit of immigration vs mass nation changing immigration. The majority of Slavs I have spoken too are fine with the former but the idea of inviting the whole world into their countries and becoming a minority in such a short space of time is simply an unattractive proposition.
     
    In the long run, that is a distinction without a difference. This generation will accept "just a few" and the next generation will accept "just a few" and so on, and before you know it, it's no longer just a few.

    And of course with the passage of time and the substitution of cuckfaggot wishful thinking for hardheaded analysis - nothing simpler than to pour scorn on "purists" who warn of the long-term dangers - intermixture accelerates to the point where it becomes politically impossible to determine how much mixture is "too much" so the result is that everyone is accepted, so that even if, by some miracle, a mass movement against racial replacement occurred, it would almost certainly fail. And then once that agitation quells, the next generation of cucks once again introduces the idea of "just a few" immigrants....

    So, though it pains me to do so, I can only laugh at these slavs you claim to have spoken to, who consider themselves oh so much wiser than the western cucklings they're comparing themselves to, because with their thinking, the end result for them is unlikely to be markedly different to the west's dismal fate.

    Replies: @Hartnell, @Daniel Chieh

    I should like to note that our kind host himself is part Caucasian and being a transhumanist, given the completed dreams of transcendent biosingularity would not resemble humans in our present day much at all.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    As such, arguments for purity in this blog always amuse me.

  104. @Radicalcenter
    @Ludwig

    As an American, I volunteer to give them all our Indians, for free.

    Replies: @Radicalcenter

    Prominent Indian and part-Indian people in US politics and government don’t help the case for this supposed “social and economic benefit” of Indians to the host country. Warmongering Republican liar Nikki Haley (former governor of South Carolina, to the discredit of South Carolinians); corrupt, vicious, and fraudulently selected Democrat VP Kamala Harris; and Republican grifter Bobby Jindal (former governor of Louisiana) are examples that come to mind.

    And we didn’t have any pressing need for more cold-hearted fraudulent-billing doctors, surly motel owners, tax-evading cash convenience store owners, or overrated programmers and consultants who take jobs from native IT professionals and lower wages while often doing a mediocre job.

    E.g., Indian doctor in NJ: https://www.sagar.com/desi-doctor-indicted-for-billing-fraud.html#:~:text=New%20Jersey%20Indian%20Doctor%20Gautam%20Sehgal%20Indicted%20for,himself%20or%20that%20were%20not%20performed%20at%20all.

    Indian doctor in Ohio: https://www.leagle.com/decision/20051249355fsupp2d89411161

    Indian doctor in Florida: https://fraudscrookscriminals.com/2019/02/04/florida-indian-american-pain-doctor-sentenced-in-medicare-fraud-case/

    Indian doctor in New York: https://www.newsindiatimes.com/indian-american-doctor-gets-18-month-prison-sentence-in-30-million-healthcare-fraud-in-n-y/

    Russia shouldn’t make the same mistake that the USA has made in admitting this nepotistic, disloyal Fifth Column from India. Russia simply should not risk permanent settlement and citizenship for anyone other than Russian-speaking, Christian European and Eurasian people. Tourist visas, education visas, business visas, absolutely, and a warm welcome for well-behaved useful temporary visitors from India like anywhere else.

    • Agree: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Ludwig
    @Radicalcenter

    Prominent Indian and part-Indian people in US politics and government don’t help the case for this supposed “social and economic benefit” of Indians to the host country. Warmongering Republican liar Nikki Haley (former governor of South Carolina, to the discredit of South Carolinians); corrupt, vicious, and fraudulently selected Democrat VP Kamala Harris; and Republican grifter Bobby Jindal (former governor of Louisiana) are examples that come to mind.


     

    Sure all these politicians are corrupt and I concur with your sentiments regarding their warmongering and grifting. This is not unique to Indians but a feature especially of US politics - Biden, Hillary, Schiff, Pelosi, Schumer, McCain, Bush to name some native born politicians - actually throw a stone at random in DC to find more - are way worse. The warmongering and endless grifting is part and parcel of US establishment politics and naturally some Indians have adapted into this framework as well. (To note, all three you mentioned pretty much renounced/don’t follow Hinduism/Sikhism but took up Christianity as part of their grift. Thought not Indian, a prominent Hindu who is possibly the most thoughtful prominent politician is Tulsi Gabbard).

    And we didn’t have any pressing need for more cold-hearted fraudulent-billing doctors, surly motel owners, tax-evading cash convenience store owners, or overrated programmers and consultants who take jobs from native IT professionals and lower wages while often doing a mediocre job.
     
    Haha! Your addled primitive mind mixes up different classes and categories of Indians. There is a difference between Indian immigrants who come to the US from top schools and who become US citizens and those who do outsourcing work. The latter are indeed often mediocre and depress wages. But since the majority of skilled Indian immigrants who migrate via grad school/executive management are from the top echelon of Indian education (as are Chinese, Taiwanese, European, African etc) they contribute a lot to society.

    I’ve been up and down the US and many motel owners are surly - this is not specific to Indians.


    [selective links to crimes committed by Indian immigrants]
     
    You focus on white collar crimes of a few to smear the whole is ridiculous. It’s as if to call all American male whites serial killers since the overwhelming majority of serial killers are white. This kind of logical fallacy is precisely why the US needs some intelligent educated immigrants to make up for the decline in education in the US that produces specimens like you if it wants to remain a working nation that can at least keep the lights on (ie avoid situations like California and Texas).

    Russia shouldn’t make the same mistake that the USA has made in admitting this nepotistic, disloyal Fifth Column from India.

     

    Immigration of skilled immigrants is not why the US is steadily going down the tube and its infrastructure falling apart. It is possibly the only thing holding up the decline which is wholly due to the native born Americans, but folks like you unable to process this basic fact look to external factors for the decline. Instead they blame “traitorous” forces. Russians! Indians!

    Incidentally how are Indians “disloyal”? If you look at voting patterns the % of Indians who supported Trump actually went up (from 16 to 23 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-29/election-2020-indian-americans-favor-democrats-but-trump-is-making-inroads). It’s many white folks who voted against Trump (who incidentally welcomed educated immigrants precisely because he as a businessman knew their positive impact on all jobs) who caused his loss.

    And nepotism?! Before Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft to get it going again, it was middling along under the lily white fast-talking idiot, Steve Ballmer. So you think Nadella got the job via some Indian connections? Ditto for Sundar Pichai and the many Indian CEOs, executives and key workers of major and minor companies across fields in the US.

    Re Russia: incidentally Karlin who has spent time in the US and evidently met a lot of educated Indian professionals seems to have a high opinion of them (or at least the Brahmin fraction as he has put it). Clearly educated immigrants from any country who migrate to western countries don’t represent the “typical” member of their country but an elite fraction. Any country that doesn’t take advantage of admitting elite fractions from wherever to supercharge their economies simply because they detest the country they are from is simply dumb - ie basically run by people like you. If Russia had a choice they would want more skilled immigrants but it is simply that skilled immigrants don’t look at Russia as a good choice.

    While the Gulf countries employ hordes of unskilled labor, what’s less known is their employment of skilled labor from across the world including from the West and India to boost their infrastructure and technologies. Ditto for Singapore.

    Final thoughts: you seem like a bitter American who sees the decline of the US but instead of admitting the rot that has always been growing from within, look for excuses like skilled Indian immigrants who like skilled Chinese, Russian, European, African immigrants are helping hold up the country.

  105. @Shortsword
    @Dmitry


    It’s not impossible that China’s economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.
     
    Eventually? In nominal GDP per capita China and Russia is about equal. Of course Russian currency is volatile and undervalued and in PPP Russia is still ahead 60%. But the richer regions of China should already be more than rich enough for poor Central Asians to want to immigrate to. But the fact is that China simply hasn't opened up for large scale worker immigration so it isn't happening.

    I also suspect that if China starts taking in millions of immigrants they'll start with Southeast Asia.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    The Philippines alone has 110 million people compared to 75 million for the whole of Central Asia combined. Muslim/Central Asian immigration will never be allowed into Xinjiang/Western China, for reasons obvious to all. How close to Eastern China is the Philippines, versus how close it’s to Uzbek population centers. The logic is clear. The Chinese worry about Central Asian Islamists, not the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.

    Who here has dealt with both Tajik/Uzbek and also Pinoy service workers?

    Anyone care to make a comparison?

  106. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting? – No. Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was before you.

    The man of the future will be a mongrel. Today’s races and classes will disappear owing to the disappearing of space, time, and prejudice.

    The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its outward appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

    Russian Bolshevism constitutes a decisive step towards this purpose where a small group of communist spiritual aristocrats govern the country and consciously break with the plutocratic [plutocratic = rule or power through wealth] democratism which nowadays controls the rest of the world.

    The fight between Capitalism and Communism over the inheritance of the beseeched blood aristocracy is a fratricidal war of the victorious brain aristocracy, a fight between individualistic and socialist, egoist and altruist, heathen and Christian spirit.

    The general staff of both parties is recruited from Europe’s spiritual leader race [Führerrasse] the Jews.

    The main representatives of the corrupt as well as the upright brain aristocracy: of capitalism, journalism and the literate are Jews.

    The superiority of their spirit predestines them to become a main factor of the future nobility.

    Therefore a gracious Providence provided Europe with a new race of nobility through spiritual grace.

    With these two attempts to redemption of a spiritual-moral origin, Jewry has bestowed a greater gift on to the disinherited masses of Europe than any other people.

    How modern Jewry also surpasses all other peoples in percentage of important men: scarcely one century after its liberation this small people stands with Einstein at the frontrunner of modern science; with Mahler as the frontrunner of modern music, with Bergson as a frontrunner of modern philosophy, with Trotsky as the frontrunner of modern politics

    Not only Jewry will move in the direction of the Western aristocratic ideals – also the Western aristocratic ideal will experience a transformation which will meet Jewry half way.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @utu

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEVRjS3zLoghskvtDxIJEvmctePeYf72n7Nw&usqp.jpg

    , @AaronB
    @utu

    Ok, but this is still the vision of one uniform type. The flattening out of man.

    I'm suggesting the emergence of a new race or ethnic grouo, and even within that group a plethora of types, as we see in every genuinely organic nation.

    As for Jews, they are having their moment in the sun, like many other people's before them. I am not sure how much you can extrapolate about this into the future -" leading races" exchange places with startling regularity.

    The real secret to Jewish power is ambition. It just so happens that Jews came into the scene just as European civilization was reaching the final stages of its development and entering a deflationary phase.

    Probably, Jews gave the West another century or so of preeminence and wealth.

    But ambition has a way of burning itself out. Jews won't be spared the same collapse in ambition that happened to Europeans.

    Look at me. Despite the best efforts of friends and family, I simply am not ambitious. My ideal is to be a dreamy Taoist wandering the forests. I am still an outlier - but for how long?

    That being said, as Nietzsche said, the Jew would probably be a useful element in the emergence of the new European race - but only one element.

    Now that I think of it, Nietzsche also discussed the emergence of a new European race. He was against the nationalism of his time.

  107. @utu
    @AaronB

    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting? - No. Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was before you.


    The man of the future will be a mongrel. Today’s races and classes will disappear owing to the disappearing of space, time, and prejudice.

    The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its outward appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

    Russian Bolshevism constitutes a decisive step towards this purpose where a small group of communist spiritual aristocrats govern the country and consciously break with the plutocratic [plutocratic = rule or power through wealth] democratism which nowadays controls the rest of the world.

    The fight between Capitalism and Communism over the inheritance of the beseeched blood aristocracy is a fratricidal war of the victorious brain aristocracy, a fight between individualistic and socialist, egoist and altruist, heathen and Christian spirit.

    The general staff of both parties is recruited from Europe’s spiritual leader race [Führerrasse] the Jews.

    The main representatives of the corrupt as well as the upright brain aristocracy: of capitalism, journalism and the literate are Jews.

    The superiority of their spirit predestines them to become a main factor of the future nobility.

    Therefore a gracious Providence provided Europe with a new race of nobility through spiritual grace.

    With these two attempts to redemption of a spiritual-moral origin, Jewry has bestowed a greater gift on to the disinherited masses of Europe than any other people.

    How modern Jewry also surpasses all other peoples in percentage of important men: scarcely one century after its liberation this small people stands with Einstein at the frontrunner of modern science; with Mahler as the frontrunner of modern music, with Bergson as a frontrunner of modern philosophy, with Trotsky as the frontrunner of modern politics

    Not only Jewry will move in the direction of the Western aristocratic ideals – also the Western aristocratic ideal will experience a transformation which will meet Jewry half way.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AaronB

  108. @utu
    @AaronB

    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting? - No. Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was before you.


    The man of the future will be a mongrel. Today’s races and classes will disappear owing to the disappearing of space, time, and prejudice.

    The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its outward appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

    Russian Bolshevism constitutes a decisive step towards this purpose where a small group of communist spiritual aristocrats govern the country and consciously break with the plutocratic [plutocratic = rule or power through wealth] democratism which nowadays controls the rest of the world.

    The fight between Capitalism and Communism over the inheritance of the beseeched blood aristocracy is a fratricidal war of the victorious brain aristocracy, a fight between individualistic and socialist, egoist and altruist, heathen and Christian spirit.

    The general staff of both parties is recruited from Europe’s spiritual leader race [Führerrasse] the Jews.

    The main representatives of the corrupt as well as the upright brain aristocracy: of capitalism, journalism and the literate are Jews.

    The superiority of their spirit predestines them to become a main factor of the future nobility.

    Therefore a gracious Providence provided Europe with a new race of nobility through spiritual grace.

    With these two attempts to redemption of a spiritual-moral origin, Jewry has bestowed a greater gift on to the disinherited masses of Europe than any other people.

    How modern Jewry also surpasses all other peoples in percentage of important men: scarcely one century after its liberation this small people stands with Einstein at the frontrunner of modern science; with Mahler as the frontrunner of modern music, with Bergson as a frontrunner of modern philosophy, with Trotsky as the frontrunner of modern politics

    Not only Jewry will move in the direction of the Western aristocratic ideals – also the Western aristocratic ideal will experience a transformation which will meet Jewry half way.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AaronB

    Ok, but this is still the vision of one uniform type. The flattening out of man.

    I’m suggesting the emergence of a new race or ethnic grouo, and even within that group a plethora of types, as we see in every genuinely organic nation.

    As for Jews, they are having their moment in the sun, like many other people’s before them. I am not sure how much you can extrapolate about this into the future -” leading races” exchange places with startling regularity.

    The real secret to Jewish power is ambition. It just so happens that Jews came into the scene just as European civilization was reaching the final stages of its development and entering a deflationary phase.

    Probably, Jews gave the West another century or so of preeminence and wealth.

    But ambition has a way of burning itself out. Jews won’t be spared the same collapse in ambition that happened to Europeans.

    Look at me. Despite the best efforts of friends and family, I simply am not ambitious. My ideal is to be a dreamy Taoist wandering the forests. I am still an outlier – but for how long?

    That being said, as Nietzsche said, the Jew would probably be a useful element in the emergence of the new European race – but only one element.

    Now that I think of it, Nietzsche also discussed the emergence of a new European race. He was against the nationalism of his time.

  109. @AaronB
    @songbird

    Btw, I don't have a problem with anyone being a racial purist.

    Humans have to divide into groups on some basis, and as German Reader pointed out on the other thread, same race groups dividing on lines other than race have historically caused the most bloodshed and suffering.

    So dividing on the basis of race is not especially bad.

    If race seems the most relevant division to you, I would not object to you marking off your group on the basis of race.

    For me, race and ethnicity are of concern, but I'm much more flexible about it obviously.

    I'm just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned - the creation of a new race or ethnicity. Admittedly this could be a disaster, or it could be very cool.

    Replies: @songbird

    I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity.

    I don’t particularly desire it – probably mostly because artistic cultural formation in modern times seems to be non-exisant – but I think probably there will be a new ethnogenesis within Europe among Europeans.

    Probably not a full one – not a complete abolition of subtypes, but (mixed, though racially pure) people might increasingly identify as Scandinavians, Germanics, Celts, Slavs, NW Europeans, Northern Europeans, or Meds. I’m not sure these people will truly have their own culture, but perhaps it still counts as new ethnicities, if the numbers reach a certain threshold. In theory, it would be aided by the possible adoption of passports made using genetic distance (which I advocate for – Russians who want eventual reunification with Ukraine, please, take note.)

    Though, I’m not sure that the formation of new races is even technically possible. That is, beyond where it is already in an advanced process, like parts of Latin America. In a technical sense, it takes probably thousands of years. The DNA needs to be broken down into small pieces and gradients destroyed. I think this would require both forced miscegenation and a full societal collapse that brought back a strong element of natural selection.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @songbird

    Right, more like the formation of new ethno-cultural groups. Races really take a long time.

    But think of the way the Spanish were formed out of the Goths, Moors, Jews, Carthaginian, and local Basque type people - probably a bit of Latin Roman, and slaves from across the empire, as well.

    Yet you still find pure Gothic and pure Moorish types in Spain also.

    For that to happen, you need immigration to stop. And you need a unifying idea. And time. Whether it ends up being desirable, I suppose depends on what the fusion produces.

  110. @Blinky Bill
    @Kent Nationalist

    https://youtu.be/IQuc7wfO16Q

    Replies: @songbird, @Kent Nationalist

    LOL. I thought it was funny when they tried to pass Vin Diesel off as Italian (another movie), but, then again, I am not Italian and am angered by the numerous attempts of Hollywood to pass Italians and half-Italians off as the dark-haired phenotype of Irish people.

    [MORE]
    (I suspect Jewish collusion.)

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @songbird


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/90/26/879026057bea9a55771fb9a4946a2e78.gif

  111. @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    LOL. I thought it was funny when they tried to pass Vin Diesel off as Italian (another movie), but, then again, I am not Italian and am angered by the numerous attempts of Hollywood to pass Italians and half-Italians off as the dark-haired phenotype of Irish people. (I suspect Jewish collusion.)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

    • LOL: songbird
  112. @Shortsword


    Beijing: A Chinese divorce court has ordered a husband to pay his wife more than $US7700 ($9680) in compensation for the housework she performed during five years of marriage, in a landmark decision that activists hope will lead to greater protections for women in China.
     
    Fun news from today. Got me thinking, does the laws on divorces have any non-negligible effect on marriage rates or anything else? In some countries a divorce can basically bankrupt you. Jeff Bezos might still be pretty rich but $40B is an expensive divorce.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Who initiated the divorce, and why? Also what portion of the guy’s wealth this represented?

  113. @Blinky Bill
    @Kent Nationalist

    https://youtu.be/IQuc7wfO16Q

    Replies: @songbird, @Kent Nationalist

    Though the U.S. census says Hispanics comprise 15% of the population, the group made up a whopping 46% of the “Fast”audience, according to exit polling data conducted by the studio.

    Other studios have found similar success with a diverse group of pictures, including Disney’s “Beverly Hills Chihuahua,”20th Century Fox’s “Alvin and the Chipmunks”, Paramount’s “Transformers,” Lionsgate’s Jackie Chan-Jet Li fantasy actioner “The Forbidden Kingdom” and U’s “The Incredible Hulk.”

    https://hispanic-marketing.com/fast-furious-taps-into-hispanic-audiences/

  114. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    Liking Chinese immigration I understand (although disagree with), because the girls can be hot, but when you start praising Indian immigration, I know that your brain has been fried by reading The Economist too much

  115. @songbird
    @AaronB


    I’m just pointing out an interesting possibility that never gets mentioned – the creation of a new race or ethnicity.
     
    I don't particularly desire it - probably mostly because artistic cultural formation in modern times seems to be non-exisant - but I think probably there will be a new ethnogenesis within Europe among Europeans.

    Probably not a full one - not a complete abolition of subtypes, but (mixed, though racially pure) people might increasingly identify as Scandinavians, Germanics, Celts, Slavs, NW Europeans, Northern Europeans, or Meds. I'm not sure these people will truly have their own culture, but perhaps it still counts as new ethnicities, if the numbers reach a certain threshold. In theory, it would be aided by the possible adoption of passports made using genetic distance (which I advocate for - Russians who want eventual reunification with Ukraine, please, take note.)

    Though, I'm not sure that the formation of new races is even technically possible. That is, beyond where it is already in an advanced process, like parts of Latin America. In a technical sense, it takes probably thousands of years. The DNA needs to be broken down into small pieces and gradients destroyed. I think this would require both forced miscegenation and a full societal collapse that brought back a strong element of natural selection.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Right, more like the formation of new ethno-cultural groups. Races really take a long time.

    But think of the way the Spanish were formed out of the Goths, Moors, Jews, Carthaginian, and local Basque type people – probably a bit of Latin Roman, and slaves from across the empire, as well.

    Yet you still find pure Gothic and pure Moorish types in Spain also.

    For that to happen, you need immigration to stop. And you need a unifying idea. And time. Whether it ends up being desirable, I suppose depends on what the fusion produces.

  116. @Dmitry
    Despite not having lockdowns or quarantines in Japan, the country had negative excess deaths for 2020.

    A country didn't need lockdowns or quarantines, if a sufficient majority of a country's population would actually follow the anti-epidemic hygiene protocols, or behave like mature people in relation to the pandemic (wear masks, wash hands, social distance, etc).


    TOKYO Feb. 24, 2021 — Deaths in Japan fell last year for the first time in more than a decade, a jarring contrast to the huge death tolls suffered by many countries in the pandemic and a signal that Japan’s coronavirus measures have had positive spillover effects. The Health Ministry reported this week that deaths in Japan had dropped by more than 9,300 in 2020 to around 1.4 million. The decrease — seven-tenths of 1 percent from the year before — was a surprising turnabout for a nation with the oldest population in the world.

    The most recent Japanese government data does not break down mortality by category, so it is difficult to say with certainty what caused the decrease in deaths. But data from earlier in the year suggests that it was spurred in large part by a drastic decline in respiratory illnesses, a likely side effect of the country’s almost ubiquitous adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/world/asia/japan-deaths.html

     

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @utu, @Gerard-Mandela

    Unfair to compare Japan to the other white countries. Most of them have alot more foreign workers by proportion or tourists than Japan does. The majority of the countries that send workers and/or tourists to Japan, are in that region of the world and had early dated, reciprocally tough air travel arrangements because of the pandemic ( or always have prohibitively tough quarantine regulations like Australia)

    In Russia we have probably a million plus each of Gruzians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Armenians, Azeris, alot of Tajiks, probably a million+ from the North Caucasus who live outside that region (and who are not exactly renowned for social distancing) – in addition to that we have many of those countries,particularly from Central Asia, effectively locking in their citizens in Russia when the pandemic started.

    We have obviously performed the best of any country on the planet. Proportionately less deaths from coronavirus than all the other important white countries despite these masses of visitors and the very large outbound foreign tourism we do….with an economic performance much less worse than most other countries ( despite Oil price being low and gas demand from Europe being low for over half the year)

    “Excess deaths” are just foreign retard media disinformation. There was an increase in 2014 that wasn’t symptomatic of anything, other countries aren’t specific if theirs are deaths in hospital or total deaths.
    just like we are in period of low birth rates from demographic collapse in 1990s -we should be in period of higher deaths rates now from post-war population increase, equalisation of men:women demographic during this period and it overlapping with current male life expectancy.
    Also we have very high testing rate and well provided for coronavirus bed capacity in hospitals compared to most other countries and the most obvious financial incentives for medics and hospitals to inflate coronavirus numbers because increased pay is very appealing.
    The only thing possibly could be Russians just wanting to shake-off this virus and self-treat…….but I don’t think this has happened for these “excess deaths”

    In summary – uniformal pattern of other white countries excess death pattern being changed by marge numbers last year indicates something serious.for Russia it doesn’t because of the various demographic issues .

  117. I mostly agree, however:

    Is this a big issue? I suppose if you’re trying to maximize for “white” ethnic purity, I suppose it is. Russia will become marginally more “Asiatic” and svidomy can crow about it. On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is. So far as daily life is concerned, I don’t see there being a big difference. Central Asians are, in socio-demographic terms, much like Latinos in the US – lower IQ and more blue-collar than the natives, but much less of a criminological or ethnic nepotism problem than Caucasians. Georgians constitute an outright majority of the so-called “Russian” mafia authorities, i.e. vory v zakone, whereas Uzbeks are – if anything – underrepresented.

    Reads like a cope. Isn’t this exactly what America, France, Sweden and other gay nations say when Russians point out their large amount of non whites? To apply the same argument that some variance in “wealth trumps multicultural friendos” to Ukraine is silly

  118. Is Moscow really Russia?

    The ending might surprise you.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @The Alarmist

    I did not watch the video, but as a born and raised Moscovite I say that Moscow is not really Russia anymore. Not since at least the fall of Communism. That's of course just my personal opinion.

    Moscow - the Old Capital - was certainly a deeply Russian city prior to the Revolution. That was the difference between Moscow and Piter then: Moscow was Russian, Piter was European.



    Today when you walk in the old streets of Zamoskvoretchie you still feel that Russian spirit. Unfortunately it is getting diluted every day. In the last 20 years Moscow has lost around 200 historical buildings.

    The 17th century neighborhood around the church where I was baptized, was to be nearly completely bulldozed and built over with elite condo towers that would have surrendered and hidden the church. The parishers, the priest and people (politicaally both left and right wing) who manifested against the demolition of historical buildings clashed with security agents hired by the construction company.

    https://youtu.be/DdXwwgm0PlY

    Finally a compromise has been found: the condos were built, but their height was lowered and some buildings around the church were preserved.

    That's a video below showing Moscow and some pictures of the church and the neighborhood I am writing about: Kadashi in Zamoskvoretchie. It's a 15 min walk from the Tretiakov Gallery. That's one of the places where the Russian spirit of Moscow can still be felt.

    https://youtu.be/j_4JGgO3aAo

    The small streets between Arbat and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, not far from the Pushkinskyi Museum are also a place I truly like. Zatchatievskyi Monastery there is truly beautiful.

    Of course Moscow is a huge city and there are a lot of beautiful places left undisturbed providing an authentic Russian feeling. But Novaya Moskva and its towers are not to my liking: all these skyscrapers are like a trace of some alien civilization incrustation.

    , @Passer by
    @The Alarmist

    This is a pro-Navalny account. So keep that i mind. She also visited a US university and was impressed by the woke stuff. I would not be surprised if this thing was recruited while it was it the US to make videos "explaining Russia" to foreigners, how bad the rus gov is and how pro-western russian people are. Then it can receive her salary as "donations".

  119. Since this has, not surprisingly, devolved into quite the charivari, I will provide a contribution of my own to the sounds of the banging pots and pans, borrowed as it may be:

    It has been well observed that in those days ‘the outside world did not overly occupy the Jewish mind’. Indeed, the elaborate codification of the practices of orthodoxy that constituted the Jewish religion in the compendia of the time, notably the Shulchan Aruch reinforced segregation, and the traditional form of Jewish intellectual activity, the homiletic exposition of the Bible and the Talmud and their application to the contingencies of Jewish life, left little scope for anything else. What is more, rabbinical authority banned philosophy, science and other branches of knowledge of non-Jewish origin, including, in darkest Volhynia, even foreign languages. The gap between the intellectual worlds is best indicated by the fact that the (rare) pioneers of emancipation among Eastern Jewry felt they needed to translate into Hebrew works evidently available to any educated person in the gentile print culture, such as Euclid and works on trigonometry as well as books on geography and ethnography.

    The contrast between the situation before and after the era of emancipation is startling. After many centuries during which the intellectual and cultural history of the world, let alone its political
    history, could be written with little reference to the contribution of any Jews acceptable as such to the orthodox, other than perhaps,
    Maimonides, we almost immediately enter the modern era when Jewish names are disproportionately represented in it. It is as though the lid had been removed from a pressure cooker of talents.

    —-

    However, of all the emancipatory languages, German was by far the most crucial, for two reasons. Throughout half of Europe – from Berlin as far as the depths of Greater Russia, from Scandinavia to the Adriatic, and into the remotest Balkans – the road from backwardness to progress, from provincialism to the wider world, was paved with German letters. We tend to forget that this was once so. German was the gateway to modernity. On the occasion of the centenary of the birth of Schiller, the poet who was the classical voice of moral and political freedom for the common readers of German in the nineteenth century, Karl Emil Franzos, wrote a story, ‘Schiller in Barnow’, that illustrates this wonderfully well. In this story a small, ill-printed volume of Schiller’s poems becomes the medium through which a Dominican monk, a young Ruthenian village schoolmaster and a poor Jewish boy from a shtetl in what the author bitterly calls ‘Demi-Asia’ (‘Halb-Asien’) find the liberation offered by the nineteenth-century version of education and modern culture. The story culminates in the reading of the ‘Ode to Joy’. In the darkest East, Schiller was even translated into Hebrew. This emancipatory role of German explains why the city fathers of the most Jewish centre in Galicia, the town of Brody, which was 76 per cent Jewish, insisted that German had to be the language of instruction in their schools. In 1880 they even fought and won their case in the imperial court in Vienna on the grounds, patently implausible, that this was a Landesübliche, a language (of common use) in Galicia.

    […]

    The division between non-assimilated, Yiddish-speaking Ostjuden and assimilated Westjuden thus became, and remained, fundamental until both perished in the same holocaust. Though no doubt familiar in educated conversation, this division seems first to have been formally made in the Bukowina from the 1870s, where a proud, extraordinarily distinguished and educated middle class encountered the first stirrings (by the doubters of Germanisation) towards giving Jews a national status through their own national language Yiddish. For emancipated Jews in Mitteleuropa, ‘Ostjuden’ defined what they were not, and did not want to be: people so visibly different as almost to constitute a different species.

    —-

    Since there is very little scope for national and cultural coloration in the modern natural sciences, the same situation could not be the case in these fields, which became increasingly remote from common sense as well as incomprehensible to the layman in the twentieth century. The contribution of Jews in this area increased dramatically after 1914, as the record of the relevant Nobel prizes demonstrates. However, only the ideologies of the radical right could link the two as ‘Jewish science’.

    The social and human sciences offered greater scope; indeed, for obvious reasons, the nature, structure and transformations of society in an era of radical historical change attracted emancipated Jews disproportionately almost from the beginning, both in practice and in theory starting with the Saint Simonians and Marx.

    This fits in with that understandable Jewish proclivity to support movements for revolutionary global transformation, which is so striking in the epoch of the Marx-inspired socialist and communist movements. Indeed, one might say that the western Jews of the early nineteenth century received emancipation from an ideology not associated with them, while the eastern Ashkenazim largely emancipated themselves through a universalist revolutionary ideology that was closely associated with them.

    This is true even of the original Zionism, so deeply penetrated by Marxism, that actually built the original state of Israel. Correspondingly, in the twentieth century, certain fields developed (such as, in certain regions of Europe, sociology and, in particular, psychoanalysis) that sometimes seemed as disproportionately populated by Jews as, say, the international club of violin virtuosos. But what characterised these sciences, like all the others to which Jews contributed so signally, was not genetic association, but lack of fixity, and therefore innovation.

    It has been rightly said that, in Britain,‘the greatest impact of the exiles [from central Europe] was probably in the newer, more cross-disciplinary fields (art history, psychology, sociology, criminology, nuclear physics, biochemistry), and the most rapidly changing professions (film, photography, architecture, broadcasting) rather than in those long established’. Einstein has become the best-known face of twenteth-century science not because he was a Jew, but because he could become the icon of a science in revolution in a century of constant intellectual upheaval.

  120. @Bashibuzuk
    @Not Raul

    Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8a/63/ed8a633ef4ae2177260e73128a873980.jpg

    Replies: @Marshal Marlow, @Hyperborean, @AltanBakshi

    I get the sense that these beautiful people are on the verge of extinction.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Marshal Marlow

    Can you imagine, there was a time when much of Central Asia was populated by people like those.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Marshal Marlow

    Yep. Our world is not getting better. OTOH in the Hunza Valley they manage to keep their traditions way of life more or less undisturbed, while also adapting to modernity with the help of their Ismaili community worldwide.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/7f/c2/577fc253bf40aef542eca267f8ea9bc8.jpg

    Whatever we might think of the Aga Khan and his people, the fact that they help preserving the Pamiri and Hunza way of life and identity are truly commendable.

  121. @Marshal Marlow
    @Bashibuzuk

    I get the sense that these beautiful people are on the verge of extinction.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

    Can you imagine, there was a time when much of Central Asia was populated by people like those.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    There was a time when much of Great Britain was populated by people like this.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUJxyWRt1jrbSQepArD_IZhVT80DDWUmCabQ&usqp.jpg


    Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.


    Every few years I get asked about Nuristanis and Kalash. The reason is that these people are often white. By white, I mean that some Nuristanis and Kalash are fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed. Entering “Nuristani” into Google images returns some very white faces. And you have weird news stories about ‘white’ Taliban, because non-locals don’t realize that some Nuristanis look like Northern Europeans.

    Since the vast majority of people who look like white Northern Europeans are white Northern Europeans, many people assume that the Nuristanis and Kalash must have some kinship to white Northern Europeans. More precisely, many have spread the legend that these people have some relationship to the soldiers of Alexander the Great (even though Macedonians are Southern European…details).

    As it turns out, they do have some kinship to Europeans…but not inordinately more than any of the other peoples of the region. The TreeMix plot at the top of this post shows that Greeks are far closer to Iranian Jews than they are to Kalash. In fact, the Kalash clearly have a non-trivial proportion of “Ancestral South Indian” South Asian ancestry.

    Because of their high genetic drift (they’re endogamous and kind of inbred) a lot of population genetic analyses are a bit more difficult with the Kalash samples that are out there. But their genetic affinities are clear:

    Table S4 show highly significant evidence (p value < 10−10) in the Kalash when using Armenia and Chamar as surrogates. Eight other pairings of surrogates give p values < 10−5. In all cases, the surrogate pairs include one group from South Asia (Chamar, Kol) and the other from West Eurasia (Armenia, Adygei, Brahui, Hungarians, Palestinians, Tuscans), consistent with admixture from a West Eurasian source.

    Chamar are a Dalit caste of Northern India if you don’t know.

    So what’s going on with the Kalash and Nuristanis? Appreciable frequencies of alleles which are correlated with traits like blue-eyes are found amongst them. Though the frequencies are much lower than in Northern Europeans. Very white looking Nuristanis and Kalash may be highly salient to photographers and the Western media, but it turns out most Nuristanis and Kalash look West Asian, with a minority who are dark-skinned enough that their South Asian ancestry is also quite clear.

    This disjunction between appearance and ancestry should not surprise us. There has been a lot of recent change in physical appearance across populations over the last 10,000 years. Europeans themselves have changed in appearance. Similarly, other populations have as well. Some of them look similar to Europeans due to happenstance or convergence.

    Another case are the Ainu of Japan. Though as an unadmixed group they no longer exist, old photos show some of them exhibiting an appearance not typical of East Asians. This led early anthropologists to posit that the Ainu were a “lost white race.” And yet to my knowledge, no European ancestry is found in Hokkaido, or in the Tohoku region, where Ainu-like people lived down to the early medieval period.

    The moral of the story: don’t judge the contents of the book by its cover.
     
    Razib Kahn

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Alarmist

  122. @The Alarmist
    Is Moscow really Russia?


    https://youtu.be/gU_I-k-Gzbc


    The ending might surprise you.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Passer by

    I did not watch the video, but as a born and raised Moscovite I say that Moscow is not really Russia anymore. Not since at least the fall of Communism. That’s of course just my personal opinion.

    Moscow – the Old Capital – was certainly a deeply Russian city prior to the Revolution. That was the difference between Moscow and Piter then: Moscow was Russian, Piter was European.

    [MORE]

    Today when you walk in the old streets of Zamoskvoretchie you still feel that Russian spirit. Unfortunately it is getting diluted every day. In the last 20 years Moscow has lost around 200 historical buildings.

    The 17th century neighborhood around the church where I was baptized, was to be nearly completely bulldozed and built over with elite condo towers that would have surrendered and hidden the church. The parishers, the priest and people (politicaally both left and right wing) who manifested against the demolition of historical buildings clashed with security agents hired by the construction company.

    Finally a compromise has been found: the condos were built, but their height was lowered and some buildings around the church were preserved.

    That’s a video below showing Moscow and some pictures of the church and the neighborhood I am writing about: Kadashi in Zamoskvoretchie. It’s a 15 min walk from the Tretiakov Gallery. That’s one of the places where the Russian spirit of Moscow can still be felt.

    The small streets between Arbat and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, not far from the Pushkinskyi Museum are also a place I truly like. Zatchatievskyi Monastery there is truly beautiful.

    Of course Moscow is a huge city and there are a lot of beautiful places left undisturbed providing an authentic Russian feeling. But Novaya Moskva and its towers are not to my liking: all these skyscrapers are like a trace of some alien civilization incrustation.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, The Alarmist
  123. @Bashibuzuk
    @Not Raul

    Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8a/63/ed8a633ef4ae2177260e73128a873980.jpg

    Replies: @Marshal Marlow, @Hyperborean, @AltanBakshi

    I just realised this girl looks remarkably like the Alyonka chocolate girl:

    • Disagree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Hyperborean

    Yep I had the same idea, she looks Slav. I tried to verify the info about her being a Pamiri and didn't find much on the internet.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/0d/b0/ea0db0599a3f7a3b840804b99fc1dcd9.jpg

    Here is another child from the same highland area. Probably a Burusho.

    Replies: @melanf

  124. @Marshal Marlow
    @Bashibuzuk

    I get the sense that these beautiful people are on the verge of extinction.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

    Yep. Our world is not getting better. OTOH in the Hunza Valley they manage to keep their traditions way of life more or less undisturbed, while also adapting to modernity with the help of their Ismaili community worldwide.

    Whatever we might think of the Aga Khan and his people, the fact that they help preserving the Pamiri and Hunza way of life and identity are truly commendable.

  125. @Hyperborean
    @Bashibuzuk

    I just realised this girl looks remarkably like the Alyonka chocolate girl:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg


    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8NUAAOSw~bVeTBfl/s-l640.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Yep I had the same idea, she looks Slav. I tried to verify the info about her being a Pamiri and didn’t find much on the internet.

    Here is another child from the same highland area. Probably a Burusho.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Bashibuzuk


    she looks Slav.
     
    Because of her light hair and eyes, she looks "North European". There is nothing specifically Slavic about it, if you dress it in a Swedish costume, it will look like a Swedish child


    The mutation associated with light hair/eyes has appeared many times in different parts of the world. Here are the Kabyles from Africa

    https://data.whicdn.com/images/191287779/original.jpg

    And here is a child from the Iraqi Kurds
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/02/83/f902833fff90c0b6ff27fdc120aba6d6--actus-afghanistan.jpg

    Replies: @AP

  126. @AP
    @Marshal Marlow

    Can you imagine, there was a time when much of Central Asia was populated by people like those.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    There was a time when much of Great Britain was populated by people like this.

    [MORE]

    Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.

    Every few years I get asked about Nuristanis and Kalash. The reason is that these people are often white. By white, I mean that some Nuristanis and Kalash are fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed. Entering “Nuristani” into Google images returns some very white faces. And you have weird news stories about ‘white’ Taliban, because non-locals don’t realize that some Nuristanis look like Northern Europeans.

    Since the vast majority of people who look like white Northern Europeans are white Northern Europeans, many people assume that the Nuristanis and Kalash must have some kinship to white Northern Europeans. More precisely, many have spread the legend that these people have some relationship to the soldiers of Alexander the Great (even though Macedonians are Southern European…details).

    As it turns out, they do have some kinship to Europeans…but not inordinately more than any of the other peoples of the region. The TreeMix plot at the top of this post shows that Greeks are far closer to Iranian Jews than they are to Kalash. In fact, the Kalash clearly have a non-trivial proportion of “Ancestral South Indian” South Asian ancestry.

    Because of their high genetic drift (they’re endogamous and kind of inbred) a lot of population genetic analyses are a bit more difficult with the Kalash samples that are out there. But their genetic affinities are clear:

    Table S4 show highly significant evidence (p value < 10−10) in the Kalash when using Armenia and Chamar as surrogates. Eight other pairings of surrogates give p values < 10−5. In all cases, the surrogate pairs include one group from South Asia (Chamar, Kol) and the other from West Eurasia (Armenia, Adygei, Brahui, Hungarians, Palestinians, Tuscans), consistent with admixture from a West Eurasian source.

    Chamar are a Dalit caste of Northern India if you don’t know.

    So what’s going on with the Kalash and Nuristanis? Appreciable frequencies of alleles which are correlated with traits like blue-eyes are found amongst them. Though the frequencies are much lower than in Northern Europeans. Very white looking Nuristanis and Kalash may be highly salient to photographers and the Western media, but it turns out most Nuristanis and Kalash look West Asian, with a minority who are dark-skinned enough that their South Asian ancestry is also quite clear.

    This disjunction between appearance and ancestry should not surprise us. There has been a lot of recent change in physical appearance across populations over the last 10,000 years. Europeans themselves have changed in appearance. Similarly, other populations have as well. Some of them look similar to Europeans due to happenstance or convergence.

    Another case are the Ainu of Japan. Though as an unadmixed group they no longer exist, old photos show some of them exhibiting an appearance not typical of East Asians. This led early anthropologists to posit that the Ainu were a “lost white race.” And yet to my knowledge, no European ancestry is found in Hokkaido, or in the Tohoku region, where Ainu-like people lived down to the early medieval period.

    The moral of the story: don’t judge the contents of the book by its cover.

    Razib Kahn

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    https://www.rferl.org/a/pakistans-pagan-valley/29867489.html

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @The Alarmist
    @Blinky Bill

    Is that a lightened version of Cheddar Man?

    Seriously, when they first came out with the reconstruction of Cheddar Man, he was much darker ...

    https://www.chesterbugle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/cheddar-man.jpg


    I guess this how they can get away with casting a black woman as Anne Boleyn.

    The more interesting thing is how many black nobles Russia had at the time of Catherine the Great, or at least that’s what the producers of The Great would have us believe.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  127. @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    There was a time when much of Great Britain was populated by people like this.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUJxyWRt1jrbSQepArD_IZhVT80DDWUmCabQ&usqp.jpg


    Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.


    Every few years I get asked about Nuristanis and Kalash. The reason is that these people are often white. By white, I mean that some Nuristanis and Kalash are fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed. Entering “Nuristani” into Google images returns some very white faces. And you have weird news stories about ‘white’ Taliban, because non-locals don’t realize that some Nuristanis look like Northern Europeans.

    Since the vast majority of people who look like white Northern Europeans are white Northern Europeans, many people assume that the Nuristanis and Kalash must have some kinship to white Northern Europeans. More precisely, many have spread the legend that these people have some relationship to the soldiers of Alexander the Great (even though Macedonians are Southern European…details).

    As it turns out, they do have some kinship to Europeans…but not inordinately more than any of the other peoples of the region. The TreeMix plot at the top of this post shows that Greeks are far closer to Iranian Jews than they are to Kalash. In fact, the Kalash clearly have a non-trivial proportion of “Ancestral South Indian” South Asian ancestry.

    Because of their high genetic drift (they’re endogamous and kind of inbred) a lot of population genetic analyses are a bit more difficult with the Kalash samples that are out there. But their genetic affinities are clear:

    Table S4 show highly significant evidence (p value < 10−10) in the Kalash when using Armenia and Chamar as surrogates. Eight other pairings of surrogates give p values < 10−5. In all cases, the surrogate pairs include one group from South Asia (Chamar, Kol) and the other from West Eurasia (Armenia, Adygei, Brahui, Hungarians, Palestinians, Tuscans), consistent with admixture from a West Eurasian source.

    Chamar are a Dalit caste of Northern India if you don’t know.

    So what’s going on with the Kalash and Nuristanis? Appreciable frequencies of alleles which are correlated with traits like blue-eyes are found amongst them. Though the frequencies are much lower than in Northern Europeans. Very white looking Nuristanis and Kalash may be highly salient to photographers and the Western media, but it turns out most Nuristanis and Kalash look West Asian, with a minority who are dark-skinned enough that their South Asian ancestry is also quite clear.

    This disjunction between appearance and ancestry should not surprise us. There has been a lot of recent change in physical appearance across populations over the last 10,000 years. Europeans themselves have changed in appearance. Similarly, other populations have as well. Some of them look similar to Europeans due to happenstance or convergence.

    Another case are the Ainu of Japan. Though as an unadmixed group they no longer exist, old photos show some of them exhibiting an appearance not typical of East Asians. This led early anthropologists to posit that the Ainu were a “lost white race.” And yet to my knowledge, no European ancestry is found in Hokkaido, or in the Tohoku region, where Ainu-like people lived down to the early medieval period.

    The moral of the story: don’t judge the contents of the book by its cover.
     
    Razib Kahn

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Alarmist

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    Why physical appearance is an imperfect individual proxy for ancestry.


    For readers who are not aware, the Kalash area group of Indo-Aryan speaking pagans who reside in the fastness of Chitral, Pakistan. Genetically about ~30% of their ancestry can be modeled as “Sintashta”, the pastoralist Indo-Europeans who were dominant in Bronze Age Turan, and likely gave rise to the Indo-Aryans. The remaining ~70% of their ancestry is similar to that of the Indus Valley people.
     
    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/02/16/why-physical-appearance-is-an-imperfect-individual-proxy-for-ancestry/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  128. @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    https://www.rferl.org/a/pakistans-pagan-valley/29867489.html

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Why physical appearance is an imperfect individual proxy for ancestry.

    [MORE]

    For readers who are not aware, the Kalash area group of Indo-Aryan speaking pagans who reside in the fastness of Chitral, Pakistan. Genetically about ~30% of their ancestry can be modeled as “Sintashta”, the pastoralist Indo-Europeans who were dominant in Bronze Age Turan, and likely gave rise to the Indo-Aryans. The remaining ~70% of their ancestry is similar to that of the Indus Valley people.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/02/16/why-physical-appearance-is-an-imperfect-individual-proxy-for-ancestry/

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill


    Sintashta
     
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-mystery-of-sintashta-people.html

    Sintashta Arkaim people were an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture, that is ancestors of Scythians and Balto-Slavs (two branches). And yes this culture contributed to the rise of the Vedic Aryans through its interaction with the Bactriana Margiana Culture (BAMAC) in modern day Turkmenistan.

    Why didn't Razib khan start with that?

    Razib Khan is a Bengali, right?

    Perhaps he should write about his Dravidian ancestors from the Indus valley civilization. They were great people who did great things before they became decadent and got replaced with the Vedic Aryans. These Aryans then imposes a caste Varna (ie color) system in which the dark skinned natives were relegated to the lower levels of social organization. The lower Varna people were then the first to convert to Islam when the Futuhat started. In short, Razib Khan's ancestors were the descendants of those who the Aryan invaders treated as slaves. Maybe that is why the swarthy Razib is trying to obfuscate simple things by using murky SNP genomics instead of the clear-cut Y haplogroups.

    Pamiri, Nuristani, Kalash and Burusho have a higher incidence of the haplogroup R1a. Other Central Asian Turkic populations also carry this ancient Scythian haplogroup. The difference is that the people in the lowlands got admixed with the ancient Turks who transmitted their Altaic dominant phenotypic alleles: dark hair, slanted eyes, while the people in the highlands had less admixture.

    https://kbimages1-a.akamaihd.net/9377e341-edc5-4fbc-8e50-9c98b8d6dad6/1200/1200/False/the-shahnameh-the-book-of-kings.jpg

    On the cover of this edition of the Fersowsi Shahnameh, the picture used is a medieval Persian miniature. The blond horseman on the right is a Persian, the dark haired slanted eyed horseman on the left is a Turk.

    One should look closer into the origins of the Hun. That's where it becomes interesting. I have provided some links about the haplogroup N1a tat in one of my comments above. The Huns were devided in Xiongnu and the Hephtalite White Huns (Spenta Huna = White / Fair [skinned] Huns). The Pashto people are descendants of the Hephtalite but with a notable amount of Baloutch, Middle Eastern and Turk admixture, whom are the Kalash, Nuristani and Burusho descended from? Well, the same Spenta Huna, but probably less admixed.

    Perhaps that is why Hunza Valley got this name.

    The question remains: who were the very first, the original Turks. That's a very interesting question, but I repeat myself. Suffice to say that the ruling dynasty of the early Gök Turks (Blue Turks) were the Ashina clan. shinnae in Old Tokharian means blue (just like gök in Turk), in Russian blue is sinyi, in Finnish blue is sininen, sinine in Estonian, but it is kèk in Magyar (gök = kèk).

    The Ananino Akozino-Malar (proto) Fenno-Ugric merchant/warrior clans have also impacted the Balto-Slav and the Scandinavian ancestry (the Turkish and Thracian link in the legendary ancestry of Odin ?).

    You see what I am getting to?

    Have a look at the links that I have provided. And stop worrying about our Eurocentric views on Central Asia, these views change absolutely nothing to the lives of the modern inhabitants of the Ferghana valley (former Bactriana) or Kandahar (the ancient Gandhara).

    🙂

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  129. @AP

    On the other hand, salaries in Ukraine are not much higher than in Uzbekistan, so I don’t know how much of an “achievement” Ukraine remaining 99% white is.
     
    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Uzbekistan isn't listed there, but I doubt it is that close to Azerbaijan.

    Adjusted for cost of living, Ukraine exceeds all of those plus Moldova and Albania. Ukraine and Armenian data are from December 2020, the others from early 2020.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard-Mandela

    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):

    LOL – so the demented fantasist wacko who knows nothing about Ukraine, has never been to it, can’t speak the language and whose posts and any of these issues confirm my statement when you are subjected to ANY scrutiny on this retarded behaviour ( LMAO on mir/svet which is as disturbing as it is funny and numerous other shameful things)…..is lying again to make obviously false comments. Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan . However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do will not change those facts……..or even all of Ukropia outside of Kiev being a disaster in wages compared to even the poorest parts of Ingushettia. No sane person thinks Belarus wage is anything else except multiple times more than Ukropia. Gruzia and Armenia also much better ( which anybody 30 years before would have considered an insane idea)

    As I have probably said several times to a dimwit like you………apart from wages falling ,massively after evromaidan and being disaster to live on- the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities, contains “small lying” in the form of the pension age increase occurring at the same time as massive youth unemployment and exodus from the country….which artificially “increases” the wage from figures that nobody in Ukraine seems to have heard of and poverty becomes even more gigantic. Young people starting on the lower wages are not there, and the older people working on because of the necessity are retained on their “higher” wages instead of being sent onto their pitiful pensions.

    As an example – In Russia in the last year wages on average raised for the first time over 50000 roubles (52000 from 47000 in 2019) after inflation that is a raise in real income of 2.5%. Now for a dishonest and immensely thick cretin as yourself it may be too difficult to understand that these numbers are not the indicator of Russian GDP contradicting logic and growing during a worldwide recession……..but obviously a fact that a few million more people have become unemployed and the wage per capita ( those in employment) figure increases.

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan
     
    Net monthly salary from wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do
     
    LOL, I never edited that page. Which of these editors do you think is me?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history

    the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities
     
    Are the Turks also lying?

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture/despite-pandemic-ukrainians-flock-to-turkish-riviera/2001637

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    The 2019 figure of 1.6 million compares to 1.2 million in 2017

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.
     
    LOL, you are still jealous about the Galician girls wearing nicer dresses than the ones you wear.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Gerard-Mandela

  130. @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    Why physical appearance is an imperfect individual proxy for ancestry.


    For readers who are not aware, the Kalash area group of Indo-Aryan speaking pagans who reside in the fastness of Chitral, Pakistan. Genetically about ~30% of their ancestry can be modeled as “Sintashta”, the pastoralist Indo-Europeans who were dominant in Bronze Age Turan, and likely gave rise to the Indo-Aryans. The remaining ~70% of their ancestry is similar to that of the Indus Valley people.
     
    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/02/16/why-physical-appearance-is-an-imperfect-individual-proxy-for-ancestry/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Sintashta

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-mystery-of-sintashta-people.html

    Sintashta Arkaim people were an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture, that is ancestors of Scythians and Balto-Slavs (two branches). And yes this culture contributed to the rise of the Vedic Aryans through its interaction with the Bactriana Margiana Culture (BAMAC) in modern day Turkmenistan.

    Why didn’t Razib khan start with that?

    Razib Khan is a Bengali, right?

    Perhaps he should write about his Dravidian ancestors from the Indus valley civilization. They were great people who did great things before they became decadent and got replaced with the Vedic Aryans. These Aryans then imposes a caste Varna (ie color) system in which the dark skinned natives were relegated to the lower levels of social organization. The lower Varna people were then the first to convert to Islam when the Futuhat started. In short, Razib Khan’s ancestors were the descendants of those who the Aryan invaders treated as slaves. Maybe that is why the swarthy Razib is trying to obfuscate simple things by using murky SNP genomics instead of the clear-cut Y haplogroups.

    Pamiri, Nuristani, Kalash and Burusho have a higher incidence of the haplogroup R1a. Other Central Asian Turkic populations also carry this ancient Scythian haplogroup. The difference is that the people in the lowlands got admixed with the ancient Turks who transmitted their Altaic dominant phenotypic alleles: dark hair, slanted eyes, while the people in the highlands had less admixture.

    On the cover of this edition of the Fersowsi Shahnameh, the picture used is a medieval Persian miniature. The blond horseman on the right is a Persian, the dark haired slanted eyed horseman on the left is a Turk.

    One should look closer into the origins of the Hun. That’s where it becomes interesting. I have provided some links about the haplogroup N1a tat in one of my comments above. The Huns were devided in Xiongnu and the Hephtalite White Huns (Spenta Huna = White / Fair [skinned] Huns). The Pashto people are descendants of the Hephtalite but with a notable amount of Baloutch, Middle Eastern and Turk admixture, whom are the Kalash, Nuristani and Burusho descended from? Well, the same Spenta Huna, but probably less admixed.

    Perhaps that is why Hunza Valley got this name.

    The question remains: who were the very first, the original Turks. That’s a very interesting question, but I repeat myself. Suffice to say that the ruling dynasty of the early Gök Turks (Blue Turks) were the Ashina clan. shinnae in Old Tokharian means blue (just like gök in Turk), in Russian blue is sinyi, in Finnish blue is sininen, sinine in Estonian, but it is kèk in Magyar (gök = kèk).

    The Ananino Akozino-Malar (proto) Fenno-Ugric merchant/warrior clans have also impacted the Balto-Slav and the Scandinavian ancestry (the Turkish and Thracian link in the legendary ancestry of Odin ?).

    You see what I am getting to?

    Have a look at the links that I have provided. And stop worrying about our Eurocentric views on Central Asia, these views change absolutely nothing to the lives of the modern inhabitants of the Ferghana valley (former Bactriana) or Kandahar (the ancient Gandhara).

    🙂

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Bashibuzuk

    Just to be perfectly clear: all R1a people of Central Asia are descended from the Arkaim Sintashta Culture populations. Whether they today identify as Turkic or Indo-Iranian is not important.

    Their ancestors came from the Corded Ware Culture descended Andronovo people who built both Arkaim and Sintashta fortified settlements.

    Those who are R1b among the Bashkir, Uyghur and Mongol populations are descended from Afanasievo Culture people derived from Yamnaya.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/early-indo-iranian-formed-mainly-by-r1a-z93-and-r1b-z2103-and-corded-ware-out-of-indo-european-speaking-migrations/

    The earliest Altaic proto - Turks were most probably derived from the Okunevo Culture people who lived nearby since the early Bronze Age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okunev_culture

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/

    By the time of Ferdowsi (middle ages) all these populations intermixed to a very large extent. The Nordic looking types are simply the recessive phenotypes arising from the backcrossing of a genetically heterogeneous population.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/6f/0e/bc6f0eb41388edc0b409c2b5bc3bd0f4.jpg

    A picture of an Uyghur girl.

    And yeah, both R1a and R1b haplogroups have probably arised somewhere in the south Siberia in the mesolithic. Therefore, all of them have Russian ancestry!

    And Russians are POC...

    Voilà!

  131. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill


    Sintashta
     
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-mystery-of-sintashta-people.html

    Sintashta Arkaim people were an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture, that is ancestors of Scythians and Balto-Slavs (two branches). And yes this culture contributed to the rise of the Vedic Aryans through its interaction with the Bactriana Margiana Culture (BAMAC) in modern day Turkmenistan.

    Why didn't Razib khan start with that?

    Razib Khan is a Bengali, right?

    Perhaps he should write about his Dravidian ancestors from the Indus valley civilization. They were great people who did great things before they became decadent and got replaced with the Vedic Aryans. These Aryans then imposes a caste Varna (ie color) system in which the dark skinned natives were relegated to the lower levels of social organization. The lower Varna people were then the first to convert to Islam when the Futuhat started. In short, Razib Khan's ancestors were the descendants of those who the Aryan invaders treated as slaves. Maybe that is why the swarthy Razib is trying to obfuscate simple things by using murky SNP genomics instead of the clear-cut Y haplogroups.

    Pamiri, Nuristani, Kalash and Burusho have a higher incidence of the haplogroup R1a. Other Central Asian Turkic populations also carry this ancient Scythian haplogroup. The difference is that the people in the lowlands got admixed with the ancient Turks who transmitted their Altaic dominant phenotypic alleles: dark hair, slanted eyes, while the people in the highlands had less admixture.

    https://kbimages1-a.akamaihd.net/9377e341-edc5-4fbc-8e50-9c98b8d6dad6/1200/1200/False/the-shahnameh-the-book-of-kings.jpg

    On the cover of this edition of the Fersowsi Shahnameh, the picture used is a medieval Persian miniature. The blond horseman on the right is a Persian, the dark haired slanted eyed horseman on the left is a Turk.

    One should look closer into the origins of the Hun. That's where it becomes interesting. I have provided some links about the haplogroup N1a tat in one of my comments above. The Huns were devided in Xiongnu and the Hephtalite White Huns (Spenta Huna = White / Fair [skinned] Huns). The Pashto people are descendants of the Hephtalite but with a notable amount of Baloutch, Middle Eastern and Turk admixture, whom are the Kalash, Nuristani and Burusho descended from? Well, the same Spenta Huna, but probably less admixed.

    Perhaps that is why Hunza Valley got this name.

    The question remains: who were the very first, the original Turks. That's a very interesting question, but I repeat myself. Suffice to say that the ruling dynasty of the early Gök Turks (Blue Turks) were the Ashina clan. shinnae in Old Tokharian means blue (just like gök in Turk), in Russian blue is sinyi, in Finnish blue is sininen, sinine in Estonian, but it is kèk in Magyar (gök = kèk).

    The Ananino Akozino-Malar (proto) Fenno-Ugric merchant/warrior clans have also impacted the Balto-Slav and the Scandinavian ancestry (the Turkish and Thracian link in the legendary ancestry of Odin ?).

    You see what I am getting to?

    Have a look at the links that I have provided. And stop worrying about our Eurocentric views on Central Asia, these views change absolutely nothing to the lives of the modern inhabitants of the Ferghana valley (former Bactriana) or Kandahar (the ancient Gandhara).

    🙂

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Just to be perfectly clear: all R1a people of Central Asia are descended from the Arkaim Sintashta Culture populations. Whether they today identify as Turkic or Indo-Iranian is not important.

    Their ancestors came from the Corded Ware Culture descended Andronovo people who built both Arkaim and Sintashta fortified settlements.

    Those who are R1b among the Bashkir, Uyghur and Mongol populations are descended from Afanasievo Culture people derived from Yamnaya.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/early-indo-iranian-formed-mainly-by-r1a-z93-and-r1b-z2103-and-corded-ware-out-of-indo-european-speaking-migrations/

    The earliest Altaic proto – Turks were most probably derived from the Okunevo Culture people who lived nearby since the early Bronze Age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okunev_culture

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/yamna-afanasevo-elite-males-dominated-by-r1b-l23-okunevo-brings-ancient-siberian-asian-population/

    By the time of Ferdowsi (middle ages) all these populations intermixed to a very large extent. The Nordic looking types are simply the recessive phenotypes arising from the backcrossing of a genetically heterogeneous population.

    A picture of an Uyghur girl.

    And yeah, both R1a and R1b haplogroups have probably arised somewhere in the south Siberia in the mesolithic. Therefore, all of them have Russian ancestry!

    And Russians are POC…

    Voilà!

  132. @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Salaries in Ukraine have been improving. They now surpass those of Belarus and all three Caucasian republics (even Azerbaijan, though they are practically tied):
     
    LOL - so the demented fantasist wacko who knows nothing about Ukraine, has never been to it, can't speak the language and whose posts and any of these issues confirm my statement when you are subjected to ANY scrutiny on this retarded behaviour ( LMAO on mir/svet which is as disturbing as it is funny and numerous other shameful things).....is lying again to make obviously false comments. Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan . However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do will not change those facts........or even all of Ukropia outside of Kiev being a disaster in wages compared to even the poorest parts of Ingushettia. No sane person thinks Belarus wage is anything else except multiple times more than Ukropia. Gruzia and Armenia also much better ( which anybody 30 years before would have considered an insane idea)

    As I have probably said several times to a dimwit like you.........apart from wages falling ,massively after evromaidan and being disaster to live on- the fake "increase" outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities, contains "small lying" in the form of the pension age increase occurring at the same time as massive youth unemployment and exodus from the country....which artificially "increases" the wage from figures that nobody in Ukraine seems to have heard of and poverty becomes even more gigantic. Young people starting on the lower wages are not there, and the older people working on because of the necessity are retained on their "higher" wages instead of being sent onto their pitiful pensions.

    As an example - In Russia in the last year wages on average raised for the first time over 50000 roubles (52000 from 47000 in 2019) after inflation that is a raise in real income of 2.5%. Now for a dishonest and immensely thick cretin as yourself it may be too difficult to understand that these numbers are not the indicator of Russian GDP contradicting logic and growing during a worldwide recession........but obviously a fact that a few million more people have become unemployed and the wage per capita ( those in employment) figure increases.

    Any more fantasies? I'm still almost injured from laughter at "traditional Galician culture " video.

    Replies: @AP

    Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan

    Net monthly salary from wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do

    LOL, I never edited that page. Which of these editors do you think is me?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history

    the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities

    Are the Turks also lying?

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture/despite-pandemic-ukrainians-flock-to-turkish-riviera/2001637

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    The 2019 figure of 1.6 million compares to 1.2 million in 2017

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.

    LOL, you are still jealous about the Galician girls wearing nicer dresses than the ones you wear.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @AP

    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    Basically all industry is dead. About 5k cars produced per year. Shipbuilding more or less entirely dead. Steel production which has been one of the productive sectors keep declining in output. Electricity production has declined over 50%. Obviously no planes are being built. There is some production of railway freight cars but small output compared to say 2013. Small numbers old trams, buses and trucks but nothing much.

    Why doesn't Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine? There should be plenty of cheap qualified workers. Maybe the plan is to let the Ukrainians work in Volkswagen factories in Poland instead.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.
     
    HAHAHAHAHA! As I have said before you idiot - to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false it's beyond a joke. Only an imbecile thinks wage is higher in Moldova than Belarus , only an imbecile ( and/or fantasist) thinks wages are higher in Kiev than Belarus...and that's before we get to Ukrop pitiful average and Belarus. Only an imbecile thinks wages in Azerbaijan are lower than Ukraine.........only a severely retarded idiot then not only propagates this BS - but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing........THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!! LOL. By implication the wages in the North Caucasus are higher than Belarus...this is ridiculous. And yes - Gruzia and Armenia with all their problems are still more prosperous than ukropia

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

     

    hahaha! Again as with the truly bizarre thing where I made a joke about the film Deliverance onto trash like you...then you somehow copied the joke and pretend it as your own.....you have literally just plagiarized my factually correct criticism of you, just copying links and not having any knowledge of the area and falsely projected in onto me....probably knowing 100% I was going to critisise you for your zero knowledge, experience and wikipedia copying BS. In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia.....but more importantly my comments on wages are based entirely on friends, connection, family and just being closely linked to Ukraine all my life you idiot..in other words entirely anecdotal and common sense...not falsely copied and pasted wikipedia garbage.

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.
     
    FFS - Antalya is basically a Russian city in Turkey you idiot . When I can be bothered I will complete my point. All for now I will say is that only somebody with zero knowledge of Ukraine would make that cretinous point

    Replies: @AP

  133. @Ludwig
    @Beckow


    Careful, each will bring a village within a lifetime. There are 1.4 billion of them in South Asia and pretty much all would leave if they could. Poland has no idea what is heading their way. Remember, that in India they still have the ‘plague’, not the fancy cough-cough corona, but the actual plague.
     
    It is not the casual racism that is offensive but the sheer ignorance of this sentiment.

    A couple of things: the bubonic plague averages around 640 cases worldwide including in the US where small clusters of cases are reported now and then esp in the southwest. (See eg https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html). It is also fairly treatable. And India doesn’t have masses dying from the plague.

    But putting that aside is the sheer ignorance of lumping together all Indians into one category when even Karlin takes care to distinguish between Central Asians. India like Europe let alone Africa is highly diverse and lumping all people’s from India or Africa is as ignorant as lumping all Europeans into one bucket (so finding no difference between the average Pole to the average German to the average Spaniard which all itself have further divisions.)

    For those who are ignorant, it would seem “Indians” who immigrate are the ones that they watch on TV from the most backward parts of the country versus from the highly educated classes or the highly industrious small business owners (as others on this forum have pointed out).

    A look at Indians in the US for example, show that Indian Americans are the richest demographic exceeding that of Jewish Americans, present at the highest levels in virtually every key sphere (from science and technology - the latest Indian American to make the news is Swati Mohan of NASA who led the Guidance and Controls Operations for the latest Mars mission, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swati_Mohan, economics and finance, law, healthcare and education and increasingly politics and law enforcement - both in the US and UK, the second-in-command have Indian heritage (tho not a fan of either), entertainment and literature as well as small businesses from restaurants/fast food franchises to motels to urban small stores). They have assimilated into the host nation with few exceptions; crime rates are low and their net contribution economically and socially is undoubtedly hugely positive.

    The question for Russia then is why they remain an unattractive destination for these Indians vs say Poland apparently (tho presumably Indians would find as much difficulty with Polish as Russian language and face as much discrimination). The Western dominated global view of Russia as a backward, authoritarian, corrupt, racist hellhole - mirroring similar sentiments many globally have of India - no doubt plays a part. This points to a wider problem that Russia has of not being to attract the desirable investment and human capital both to revitalize its economy as well as help with its demographic issues.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow, @Radicalcenter, @Kent Nationalist, @EldnahYm

    https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_53.pdf

    You’re full of shit. Indians have the lowest level of cultural assimilation of all ethnic groups in the U.S. Considering their lower numbers as compared with many Hispanic groups, that’s impressive.

    This idea that host nations should be happy to welcome in foreigners who get rich at the expense of the locals is risible. It’s even worse when it’s from a parasitic, ethnically nepotistic, hostile group like Indians.

    • Replies: @Ludwig
    @EldnahYm


    You’re full of shit. Indians have the lowest level of cultural assimilation of all ethnic groups in the U.S. Considering their lower numbers as compared with many Hispanic groups, that’s impressive.

    This idea that host nations should be happy to welcome in foreigners who get rich at the expense of the locals is risible. It’s even worse when it’s from a parasitic, ethnically nepotistic, hostile group like Indians.
     

    So you’re saying that all these top Indian CEOs, lawyers, doctors etc got their jobs because of nepostism? That to take a random example that Indian win spelling bees in the US despite not assimilating? Educated Indians speak better English, know more English literature than the average native born American watching the Kardashians for intellectual stimulation.

    So who’s full of shit? Just because you can’t compete with immigrants don’t blame them for your intellectual short comings.

    Check out

  134. @Bashibuzuk
    @Hyperborean

    Yep I had the same idea, she looks Slav. I tried to verify the info about her being a Pamiri and didn't find much on the internet.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/0d/b0/ea0db0599a3f7a3b840804b99fc1dcd9.jpg

    Here is another child from the same highland area. Probably a Burusho.

    Replies: @melanf

    she looks Slav.

    Because of her light hair and eyes, she looks “North European”. There is nothing specifically Slavic about it, if you dress it in a Swedish costume, it will look like a Swedish child

    The mutation associated with light hair/eyes has appeared many times in different parts of the world. Here are the Kabyles from Africa

    And here is a child from the Iraqi Kurds

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Kabyles are Berbers (not Africans in the sense one usually means) and Kurds are Indo-Europeans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  135. @melanf
    @Bashibuzuk


    she looks Slav.
     
    Because of her light hair and eyes, she looks "North European". There is nothing specifically Slavic about it, if you dress it in a Swedish costume, it will look like a Swedish child


    The mutation associated with light hair/eyes has appeared many times in different parts of the world. Here are the Kabyles from Africa

    https://data.whicdn.com/images/191287779/original.jpg

    And here is a child from the Iraqi Kurds
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/02/83/f902833fff90c0b6ff27fdc120aba6d6--actus-afghanistan.jpg

    Replies: @AP

    Kabyles are Berbers (not Africans in the sense one usually means) and Kurds are Indo-Europeans.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    Kabyles got admixed with Vandals when the North African Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantine. The remaining Vandals escaped to the Kabylia mountains and assimilated with the Berber clans. You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

    Replies: @AP

  136. @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    There was a time when much of Great Britain was populated by people like this.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUJxyWRt1jrbSQepArD_IZhVT80DDWUmCabQ&usqp.jpg


    Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.


    Every few years I get asked about Nuristanis and Kalash. The reason is that these people are often white. By white, I mean that some Nuristanis and Kalash are fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed. Entering “Nuristani” into Google images returns some very white faces. And you have weird news stories about ‘white’ Taliban, because non-locals don’t realize that some Nuristanis look like Northern Europeans.

    Since the vast majority of people who look like white Northern Europeans are white Northern Europeans, many people assume that the Nuristanis and Kalash must have some kinship to white Northern Europeans. More precisely, many have spread the legend that these people have some relationship to the soldiers of Alexander the Great (even though Macedonians are Southern European…details).

    As it turns out, they do have some kinship to Europeans…but not inordinately more than any of the other peoples of the region. The TreeMix plot at the top of this post shows that Greeks are far closer to Iranian Jews than they are to Kalash. In fact, the Kalash clearly have a non-trivial proportion of “Ancestral South Indian” South Asian ancestry.

    Because of their high genetic drift (they’re endogamous and kind of inbred) a lot of population genetic analyses are a bit more difficult with the Kalash samples that are out there. But their genetic affinities are clear:

    Table S4 show highly significant evidence (p value < 10−10) in the Kalash when using Armenia and Chamar as surrogates. Eight other pairings of surrogates give p values < 10−5. In all cases, the surrogate pairs include one group from South Asia (Chamar, Kol) and the other from West Eurasia (Armenia, Adygei, Brahui, Hungarians, Palestinians, Tuscans), consistent with admixture from a West Eurasian source.

    Chamar are a Dalit caste of Northern India if you don’t know.

    So what’s going on with the Kalash and Nuristanis? Appreciable frequencies of alleles which are correlated with traits like blue-eyes are found amongst them. Though the frequencies are much lower than in Northern Europeans. Very white looking Nuristanis and Kalash may be highly salient to photographers and the Western media, but it turns out most Nuristanis and Kalash look West Asian, with a minority who are dark-skinned enough that their South Asian ancestry is also quite clear.

    This disjunction between appearance and ancestry should not surprise us. There has been a lot of recent change in physical appearance across populations over the last 10,000 years. Europeans themselves have changed in appearance. Similarly, other populations have as well. Some of them look similar to Europeans due to happenstance or convergence.

    Another case are the Ainu of Japan. Though as an unadmixed group they no longer exist, old photos show some of them exhibiting an appearance not typical of East Asians. This led early anthropologists to posit that the Ainu were a “lost white race.” And yet to my knowledge, no European ancestry is found in Hokkaido, or in the Tohoku region, where Ainu-like people lived down to the early medieval period.

    The moral of the story: don’t judge the contents of the book by its cover.
     
    Razib Kahn

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Alarmist

    Is that a lightened version of Cheddar Man?

    Seriously, when they first came out with the reconstruction of Cheddar Man, he was much darker …

    I guess this how they can get away with casting a black woman as Anne Boleyn.

    The more interesting thing is how many black nobles Russia had at the time of Catherine the Great, or at least that’s what the producers of The Great would have us believe.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @The Alarmist

    I believe the consensus view is that he was substantially darker than modern Brits, but not as dark as initially portrayed.

  137. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world's largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government's policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be "safe" from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It's not impossible that China's economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    -
    For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India's economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It's possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    https://i.imgur.com/bQkDyw6.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @antibeast, @melanf

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    Spain is hardly ‘flooded’ with Chinese immigrants which number some 200,000, behind Morocco, Romania, Columbia, UK, Italy and other Latin American countries from where hundreds of thousands of immigrants have naturalized to become Spanish Citizens.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    The top 15 cities in China with a combined population of 260 million have a GDP per capita exceeding USD20K. And yet Africa hosts a population of 2 million Chinese immigrants while Europe hosts half as many at 1 million. So GDP per capita is not the reason why Chinese emigrate to Africa or Europe where they seek economic opportunities not as ‘laborers’ but as ‘entrepreneurs’, mostly in family-owned trading businesses as importers, wholesalers and retailers. Africans are poorer than Europeans, thus creating a larger market for cheaper Chinese-made goods than Europe which explains the larger number of Chinese immigrants in Africa, plying their trade selling those Chinese goods to Africans.

    That’s true in much of the ‘developing’ world in Africa, Asia and Latin America where Chinese immigrants have established business networks to distribute Chinese-made goods since the 80s. But that ‘cross-border trade’ is dying as Chinese multinationals have arrived to either manufacture and/or distribute Chinese goods, directly to those markets outside of China.

  138. @The Alarmist
    Is Moscow really Russia?


    https://youtu.be/gU_I-k-Gzbc


    The ending might surprise you.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Passer by

    This is a pro-Navalny account. So keep that i mind. She also visited a US university and was impressed by the woke stuff. I would not be surprised if this thing was recruited while it was it the US to make videos “explaining Russia” to foreigners, how bad the rus gov is and how pro-western russian people are. Then it can receive her salary as “donations”.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  139. @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan
     
    Net monthly salary from wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do
     
    LOL, I never edited that page. Which of these editors do you think is me?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history

    the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities
     
    Are the Turks also lying?

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture/despite-pandemic-ukrainians-flock-to-turkish-riviera/2001637

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    The 2019 figure of 1.6 million compares to 1.2 million in 2017

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.
     
    LOL, you are still jealous about the Galician girls wearing nicer dresses than the ones you wear.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Gerard-Mandela

    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    Basically all industry is dead. About 5k cars produced per year. Shipbuilding more or less entirely dead. Steel production which has been one of the productive sectors keep declining in output. Electricity production has declined over 50%. Obviously no planes are being built. There is some production of railway freight cars but small output compared to say 2013. Small numbers old trams, buses and trucks but nothing much.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine? There should be plenty of cheap qualified workers. Maybe the plan is to let the Ukrainians work in Volkswagen factories in Poland instead.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Shortsword


    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine
     
    Maybe. I’ve visited Ukraine and am in touch with relatives there, but not so with Belarus. Living standards in Kiev and Lviv are fine, but I’ve seen some very poor rural areas.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?
     
    They’ve been building plants producing wiring and such for German auto manufacturers in places like Zhytomir and Vynnytsia. These regions have seen significant improvement. One of my cousins from this area took his family on vacation to Turkey and another to Egypt in 2019. This was the first time they were able to do foreign trips to beach resorts. This anecdote is supported by Turkish statistics showing record number of vacationers from Ukraine in 2019.

    Salaries are improving because if they are too low, workers will simply move to Poland. It is cheaper for companies to raise salaries in Ukraine to a level that is still much lower than in Poland but that is an improvement for Ukraine (enough to keep people local).

    Basically all industry is dead
     
    Depending on statistics there has been either steady decline, or stagnation - not utter collapse. Loss of some industries has been compensated by improvement elsewhere. But manufacturing overall had been a weak spot- IT services, agriculture, construction have been good.

    About 5k cars produced per year
     
    Yes but production of car parts such as wiring for cars has increased:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Ukraine industries strive to bring migrant workers home

    Car parts manufacturing is thriving, but many workers have left...



    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds...

    Article was from late 2018.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine?
     
    Too much risk for such a largescale investment?

    Replies: @Shortsword

  140. @Shortsword
    @AP

    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    Basically all industry is dead. About 5k cars produced per year. Shipbuilding more or less entirely dead. Steel production which has been one of the productive sectors keep declining in output. Electricity production has declined over 50%. Obviously no planes are being built. There is some production of railway freight cars but small output compared to say 2013. Small numbers old trams, buses and trucks but nothing much.

    Why doesn't Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine? There should be plenty of cheap qualified workers. Maybe the plan is to let the Ukrainians work in Volkswagen factories in Poland instead.

    Replies: @AP

    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine

    Maybe. I’ve visited Ukraine and am in touch with relatives there, but not so with Belarus. Living standards in Kiev and Lviv are fine, but I’ve seen some very poor rural areas.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?

    They’ve been building plants producing wiring and such for German auto manufacturers in places like Zhytomir and Vynnytsia. These regions have seen significant improvement. One of my cousins from this area took his family on vacation to Turkey and another to Egypt in 2019. This was the first time they were able to do foreign trips to beach resorts. This anecdote is supported by Turkish statistics showing record number of vacationers from Ukraine in 2019.

    Salaries are improving because if they are too low, workers will simply move to Poland. It is cheaper for companies to raise salaries in Ukraine to a level that is still much lower than in Poland but that is an improvement for Ukraine (enough to keep people local).

    Basically all industry is dead

    Depending on statistics there has been either steady decline, or stagnation – not utter collapse. Loss of some industries has been compensated by improvement elsewhere. But manufacturing overall had been a weak spot- IT services, agriculture, construction have been good.

    About 5k cars produced per year

    Yes but production of car parts such as wiring for cars has increased:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Ukraine industries strive to bring migrant workers home

    Car parts manufacturing is thriving, but many workers have left…

    [MORE]

    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds…

    Article was from late 2018.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine?

    Too much risk for such a largescale investment?

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @AP

    So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain?

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

    Replies: @AP

  141. @The Alarmist
    @Blinky Bill

    Is that a lightened version of Cheddar Man?

    Seriously, when they first came out with the reconstruction of Cheddar Man, he was much darker ...

    https://www.chesterbugle.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/cheddar-man.jpg


    I guess this how they can get away with casting a black woman as Anne Boleyn.

    The more interesting thing is how many black nobles Russia had at the time of Catherine the Great, or at least that’s what the producers of The Great would have us believe.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    I believe the consensus view is that he was substantially darker than modern Brits, but not as dark as initially portrayed.

  142. @Dmitry
    @Hartnell

    Everywhere there are rich countries, immigrants try to flood them, and where there are poor countries, emigrants flow out.

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level (for example, creating the world's largest open border zone to try to include third world countries of Central Asia), but only people from postsoviet countries will ever immigrate to Russia in significant numbers, as life is difficult enough for local people, and it only makes sense to immigrate to Russia within a postsoviet cultural sphere.

    On the other hand, in countries where life is comparatively easy for ordinary people like Australia, Canada or Sweden, millions of immigrant are constantly trying to flood in, and to some extent the government's policy only somewhat modifies the situation (e.g. pro-immigrant attitudes in Sweden and Canada vs more anti-immigrant attitudes in Australia).

    Russia will not be flooded with immigrants from outside of the postsoviet countries, because the life is insufficiently easy for most immigrants that arrive without assets or connections. That is, Russia is likely going to remain a majority Russian population. Russia will be "safe" from this kind of immigration from outside the postsoviet space, that countries like Australia are flooded with.

    And if third world countries experience sufficient economic growth (as we see now in China), this could be permanent. It's not impossible that China's economy will eventually bypass Russia, and that postsoviet workers will immigrate to China.

    -
    For an example:

    Spain is flooded with Chinese immigrants (whether illegal or legal), while Ukraine is not flooded with Chinese immigrants.

    When you look at the income graph, there is the explanation for why Chinese immigrate to Spain, but do not immigrate to Ukraine. (More likely, that Ukrainians will immigrate to China, than Chinese immigrating to Ukraine nowadays).

    India's economy is also growing, although far less rapidly than in China. It's possible that India will have a higher income level than Ukraine, in some measures within this decade. Of course, Ukraine is a far more developed country than India in other ways (not measurable in income), but Indians who go to Ukraine to study, will not stay in Ukraine after they complete their education, as there is hardly a sufficient income gap.

    https://i.imgur.com/bQkDyw6.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @antibeast, @melanf

    In Russia, the government is extremely pro-immigrant on a policy level

    This (with reservations) is true only for the post-Soviet space. Otherwise, Russia has sharply anti-immigrant legislation

  143. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    This is such a great idea that Israel should try it first! Not with this lame, barely diverse “Oriental Jews”, but with Africans as you’re urging on Europe. Come on, why go halfway, bubela.

  144. @silviosilver
    @AaronB


    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?
     
    Is Brazil really all that exciting?

    Why is this to be so feared?
     
    Because it's better to racially live on than to racially die off?

    Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe?
     
    Well, if you're a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it's very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that's happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn't be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Radicalcenter

    I beg to differ, Sil. Brazil sure is exciting. Running to escape a rape or mugging gets the heart pumping, blood flowing, is great exercise and makes you feel alive. Aaron is a heck of a guy to want the same African enrichment for Europe. I can see that he sincerely has the best interests of Europeans at heart.

  145. @AaronB
    @silviosilver


    Is Brazil really all that exciting
     
    ?

    That's a fair point. Brazil is one option. But post Roman collapse Northern Italy is another.

    I agree that you have a legitimate concern in getting the proportions right.

    I have always said I am glad Ethiopians immigrated to Israel, but would not want them to overwhelm the existing ethnic balance.

    But a 70% White majority receiving a 30% introgression? That likely won't end in Brazil.

    Because it’s better to racially live on than to racially die off
     
    But who is dying off? Some parts of the White race are being modified by the infusion of new blood. But the old phenotypes will remain. It's still possible to find classic Roman types in Italy.

    Among Hasidic Jews, you will find quite a few blond and blue eyes kids.

    But the generic material of the White race us not dying off in the scenario I outlined - I mentioned outright extermination or replacement would be a legitimate concern.

    Well, if you’re a mendacious jew piece of shit, then it’s very easy to make mountains out of molehills and pretend that the kinds of Europeans that exist today are the result of massive interracial mixture that’s happened time and again throughout European history, but then you shouldn’t be surprised when people dismiss you as just a mendacious jew piece of shit.
     
    Being called a mendavious Jew piece of shit on this site neither bothers me no surprises me - it's one of the nicer things I've been called :)

    I am aware of what site I am on lol.

    Certainly, the pattern I described isn't characteristic of all Europe. Scandinavia doesn't seem to have ever received any foreign racial mixture for instance.

    But Rome towards the end of the Empire for instance was majority Near Eastern origin, and the Germanic invasions obviously.

    Spain is an amalgamation of Gothic, Moorish, Jewish, and Punic elements. Quite heterogeneous I'd say.

    But the main question is - why fear the creation of a new race? At least one must acknowledge it can create new possibilities. A new and exciting civilization.

    Maybe not. It may lead to a worse civilization. That's also a possibility.

    Ashkenazi Jews for instance are a new race created by mixture - they are unlike the ancient Hebrew race yet descended from them. They exhibited some extraordinary new qualities not found in their ancestors, at least not to the same degree.

    Oh well, I guess for some people absolute purity of race is a really big deal, and they don't see the world as a dynamic system like I do, so I shouldn't be surprised at your hostile response :)

    I think race and ethnicity are a concern, but I'm not a purist about it. Plus I see change and development - and later collapse - as essential processes of nature, so I'm not saddened by the death of the old and am excited by the emergence of the new.

    The old Ashkenazi Sabras were a tough and remarkable bunch of adventurers, but I do not lament their mixing into a new race.

    To each his own I suppose.

    Replies: @Radicalcenter

    To their good fortune, your Ashkenazi forebears mixed en masse with Italians, and to a lesser extent with Germanics and Slavs. That is a far cry from mass mixing with Africans or Pakistanis/Indians, and you know it.

    If not, tell us about your efforts to convince Israelis to open their doors wide to mass African, Arab, and Pakistani/Indian immigration….. (cue the John Derbyshire crickets)

    Also, you should take the lead and marry and procreate with an African or Pakistani. It would be a Schande if you didn’t follow your own advice. And be sure to post some wedding photos.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Radicalcenter

    When Jews married local Italians, they were a racial mixture of Latin, Gothic, and the many ex slaves of the Roman Empire. This was not an especially high quality population at the time - indeed, Dark Ages Europe was not a notably high quality population at the time.

    And Jews experienced an ethnic infusion of 50% - much higher than I envisioned for Europe.

    Today, Ashkenazi are intermarrying at a high rate with Brown Jews - the equivalent of Pakistanis/Arabs, and it is producing a vigorous, attractive, and successful hybrid stock.

    So I am certainly not suggesting anything for you that I am not suggesting for Jews - in fact, I am suggesting a significantly lower rate of ethnic mixing for Europe, and merely entertaining the possibility that it may lead to an exciting new hybrid stock. I am not even prescribjng anything.

    Concerns about lowering quality are legitimate, but hard to calculate. Introducing a "fun loving", or artistic, element into dour northerners may be a positive addition to the whole, just as fusing with a more earthy, "physical" element is good for Ashkenazim.

    Plus things develop in unforeseen ways once a nation begins the process of assimilation. No one could have guessed that mixture of Goths, Latins, Gauls, and ex slaves from across the Empire would create one of the words most brilliant cultures.

    And I am not saying Europe should continue allowing immigration. It should have stopped yesterday.

    And I am not even saying this will necessarily leas to a successful hybrid stock.

  146. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    “European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself? ”

    “…might this not lead to something exciting and new? ”

    “Why is this to be so feared?”

    Yes, for it’s the destiny of most peoples and nations to wither away and die, unlike the chosen nation! Some folks ain’t just special enough, so it’s “exciting” that they break down.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Do you have any noble, higher feelings in you Altan or do you have to view everything through the angle of petty ethnic resentment? Are you ever able to take the eagle-eyed "large view" and see the world and humanity sub specie aeternitas or are you always mired in petty squabbles and jealousies?

    Don't answer :)

    I've said the Jews went through a much more severe mixture and undergoing a massive one today in Israel.

    The so called Jewish nation has withered and died many times and become reborn with new ethnic mixtures and on a new cultural basis many times. And it is doing so again.

    In this it is similar to Europe. Death-and-rebirth, the new-but-old pattern...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  147. @Bashibuzuk
    @Not Raul

    Because in the lowlands they intermixed more with Turks and Middle East derived populations. Highland valleys are easier to defend against invaders, especially cavalry. They served as a refuge for the native populations. In the AfPak Hindu Kush mountains native highlander ethnic groups even managed to avoid Islamisation.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f9/85/7a/f9857aebb9e5bad8c70c6582322b55ae.jpg

    This little little girl is supposedly a Nuristani from Afghanistan. The Nuristani highlanders have been only Islamized in the second half of the nineteenth century. Their Kalash Kafir cousins in Pakistan are still pagans to this very day.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/8a/63/ed8a633ef4ae2177260e73128a873980.jpg

    Replies: @Marshal Marlow, @Hyperborean, @AltanBakshi

    You are now doing quite much cherry picking with your Kalash photos, children are almost everywhere fairer than adult folks.

    [MORE]

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/y39msuZBzIsN-nKGp63lAk2t87b9j36kY-759-CnWl6KwXVKZKekIdyANIMFAkwqRSUDH9hZQAumlYywQD_qUWfXoGn4pCE370okPjUR5QTFM_8WYw

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    By the way I found again one good proof for the Aryanness of the historical Buddha. Two first laymen to convert to Buddhism were two merchants from Bactria, named Trapusa and Bhallika, in those times Aryan Scythians/Saka inhabited that once famous land. I think it tells something that the first men who came to Buddhism were from Bactria, or maybe its just a coincidence, but my intuition says otherwise.

    Anyway there are no pure, or even mostly pure Aryans left, but their genes have spread wide and far, and it can be said that Punjabis and some Russian people have around ~40% their heritage from the ancient Aryans.

    Buddha’s people the Shakyas were pure Aryans, and they guarded ferociously the purity of their bloodline from mingling with those who they saw lesser than themselves(almost everybody else, lol), but, alas, all Shakyans perished in battle against the army of kingdom of Kosala, only those men survived who had become mendicants in Buddha’s monastic order. Still what happened to their women? This is my speculation, but I think that they burned themselves in mass Jauhar, after all they were famous for their pride. Such women would have chosen burning over desecration, and such cases of Ksathriya women burning themselves after the defeat and slaughter of their men in battle, have been recorded multiple times in history.

    There’s nothing more Aryan than willingly perishing in flames! So please people remember that in the struggle against the great Satan of our times! What else a nuclear war would be but one great and radiant Jauhar! I’m of course writing metaphorically, so don’t take me too seriously…

    • Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @AltanBakshi


    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.
     
    I was under the impression that the Ancient Aryans looked like modern day Georgians?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  148. @AP
    @melanf

    Kabyles are Berbers (not Africans in the sense one usually means) and Kurds are Indo-Europeans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Kabyles got admixed with Vandals when the North African Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantine. The remaining Vandals escaped to the Kabylia mountains and assimilated with the Berber clans. You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.
     
    The Ukrainian version of Peshmerga would be “Bezsmertni.”

    One couldn’t guess it naively, but knowing the meaning one can see the clear parallels.
  149. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    Kabyles got admixed with Vandals when the North African Vandal kingdom was defeated by the Byzantine. The remaining Vandals escaped to the Kabylia mountains and assimilated with the Berber clans. You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

    Replies: @AP

    You are correct about the Kurds, funnily enough someone who speaks Russian could easily guess what Peshmerga means.

    The Ukrainian version of Peshmerga would be “Bezsmertni.”

    One couldn’t guess it naively, but knowing the meaning one can see the clear parallels.

  150. @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    "European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself? "

    "...might this not lead to something exciting and new? "

    "Why is this to be so feared?"

    Yes, for it's the destiny of most peoples and nations to wither away and die, unlike the chosen nation! Some folks ain't just special enough, so it's "exciting" that they break down.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Do you have any noble, higher feelings in you Altan or do you have to view everything through the angle of petty ethnic resentment? Are you ever able to take the eagle-eyed “large view” and see the world and humanity sub specie aeternitas or are you always mired in petty squabbles and jealousies?

    Don’t answer 🙂

    I’ve said the Jews went through a much more severe mixture and undergoing a massive one today in Israel.

    The so called Jewish nation has withered and died many times and become reborn with new ethnic mixtures and on a new cultural basis many times. And it is doing so again.

    In this it is similar to Europe. Death-and-rebirth, the new-but-old pattern…

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    Good answer, you answered just like I expected you would. But what about Mizrahi Jews? Have they withered, died and mixed, or the men of your priestly caste, the Levites? Thus one can claim that the core of ancient Jewish nation is still quite extant, without withering, dying and mixing.

    For clarification, I don't see mixing between Eurasian populations as a great danger, heck I'm myself a product of such mixing.

    Replies: @AaronB

  151. @Blinky Bill
    @Vishnugupta

    Who is the Tajik and who is the Uzbek? Shall we ever truly know?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Central_Asian_Buddhist_Monks.jpeg


    Neither!

    The comment below was made by Razib Kahn over a decade ago and to the best of my limited knowledge, remains true.


    The genetic and linguistic affinities of two dozen ethno-linguistic groups from the three Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. This is what the Greeks referred to as Transoxiana, and the Persians as Turan. Originally inhabited by peoples with close cultural affinities with those of Persia, indeed, likely the root of the peoples of Persia, by the historical period Turan developed a distinctive identity as a frontier or march. It was in Turan where the Turk met the Iranian (a class which included non-Persian groups, such as the Sogdians), from the pre-Islamic Sassanians down to the present day. It is a region of the world which has a very ancient urban culture, cities such as Merv, as well as peoples that were only recently nomads, forcibly made sedentary by the Soviet regime.

    To add another twist to the picture many of the ethno-linguistic groups which we are familiar with today and which serve as the cores of the new Central Asian nations only came into being within the last few centuries, with a particular “push” from Russian Imperial and Soviet ethnologists who were tasked with fleshing out national identities with which the center could negotiate. A “Tajik” is after all simply part of the Persian-speaking residual population of Central Asia, spreading down into Afghanistan. The carving out of an independent Tajikistan out of the Central Asian landscape is as much a creation of the modern age as the state of Israel. The “Uzbek” identity was once simply that of the ruling caste of Transoxiana who came to power after the decline of the Timurids. Today it is an appellation which brackets the settled Turkic speaking peoples of Uzbekistan and beyond.

    Into this near Gordian knot of history and ideology walk the naive and well-meaning geneticists.

    Located in the Eurasian heartland, Central Asia has played a major role in both the early spread of modern humans out of Africa and the more recent settlements of differentiated populations across Eurasia. A detailed knowledge of the peopling in this vast region would therefore greatly improve our understanding of range expansions, colonizations and recurrent migrations, including the impact of the historical expansion of eastern nomadic groups that occurred in Central Asia. However, despite its presumable importance, little is known about the level and the distribution of genetic variation in this region. We genotyped 26 Indo-Iranian- and Turkic-speaking populations, belonging to six different ethnic groups, at 27 autosomal microsatellite loci. The analysis of genetic variation reveals that Central Asian diversity is mainly shaped by linguistic affiliation, with Turkic-speaking populations forming a cluster more closely related to East-Asian populations and Indo-Iranian speakers forming a cluster closer to Western Eurasians. The scattered position of Uzbeks across Turkic- and Indo-Iranian-speaking populations may reflect their origins from the union of different tribes. We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen. Contrary to what is generally thought, our results suggest that the recurrent expansions of eastern nomadic groups did not result in the complete replacement of local populations, but rather into partial admixture.

    In my initial comment on this paper in a link round-up I wondered what the authors were thinking making such a comment: anyone who knows Central Asians would see on their faces that the Turks did not completely replace the local populations. The image above is of an Uzbek man, who does not exhibit any visible “Mongolian” features. This is not the norm, but is not unheard of. Even populations which are presumed to have less Iranian admixture, such as the Kazakhs, exhibit a range of physical types. It would be one thing if this reference was an isolated peculiarity, but there are other comments within the paper which indicate to me that the research group’s familiarity with the non-genetic literature is cursory at best. They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Near the end of the paper they say something really peculiar: “The Westernized view of westward invasions usually emphasizes the extreme violence and cruelty of the hordes led by Attila the Hun (AD 406–453), or that from the Mongolian empire led by Genghis Khan. However, our results somehow challenge this view and rather suggest that these more recent expansions did not lead to the massacre and complete replacement of the locally settled populations….” It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians, for whom the Mongol conquests were totally shocking and a literal world-turned-upside-down moment. The Mongol conquests did seem to result in a decline in population between Mesopotamia and Transoxiana. Whole cities in Central Asia were depopulated. There is an assumption that the Mongol conquests marks the turning point where Central Asia passed from being a predominantly Iranian world with a Turkic military elite (which was to be the nature of Iran proper until the 20th century) to a Turkic world with a large Persian minority. Though the military conquests of the Mongols were important punctuating events, I do not believe that scholars today would assume that they produced an ethnic shift in toto. On the contrary, the null hypothesis is generally against migrationism.

    There’s a clear separation linguistically between Iranian speaking and Turkic speaking groups in Central Asia. Some of the Turkic groups are close to Iranian groups, closer than to other Turkic groups, but still the two broad sets have a coherent identity. Undergirding the linguistic variation is classical geographic variation. The eastern Turkic groups seem the least impacted by the Iranian substrate which was dominant before the arrival of Turks, while the Turcoman group sampled from western Uzbekistan seems to have been the most genetically “Iranized.” In a world wide context the central position of Central Asians is not surprising. Interestingly the Iranian groups of Central Asia seem to overlap rather well with the Indo-Iranian groups from the HGDP data set. In contrast, the Turkic groups are distributed along a linear axis from East Asians to the Iranian cluster. This is the same pattern evident among African Americans as individuals. It’s a two-way admixture, with different dosage degrees by population as a function of history and geography (I presume you’d see the same pattern if it was broken down on individuals with a SNP-chip).

    Yagnobis of Dushanbe. I happen to know offhand that the Yagnobis are reputed to be descendants of the Sogdians, having preserved their language and Zoroastrian religion relatively late in history before switching to Tajik and Islam. Like many ethno-linguistic relics these people preserved their independent identity after the Arab conquest, which saw the decline of Sogdian influence on the Silk Road, by taking refuge in isolated regions. It is no surprise then that this group shows the least East Asian admixture of all the Iranian samples, as they were isolated from many of the social and historical processes which were operative in Transoxiana after the conquest by the Arabs, and the later pushing in of the zone of Turkic hegemony after the fall of the Samanids.

    These admixture estimates definitely put the spotlight on the role of Central Asia as a nexus of sorts. In the archaeology and history it is clear that Central Asia has been affected by peoples of European, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and East Asian origin. Central Asia itself has been the mother of empires, famously the seat of Timur, but also the original base of what later became the Abbasid dynasty. At one point the Caliphate was split between western and eastern factions and there was a possibility that the capital would be relocated from Baghdad to the Central Asian city of Merv! I do not believe that the Arabs had a strong genetic impact, nor was there a large South Asian migration in recent periods into Central Asia. So the admixture estimates adduced for these groups may be due to the natural cline in allele frequencies which are found in different peripheral Eurasian populations. Frequencies which are naturally intermediate in Central Asia. The main caveat is that it is probable that local conditions will vary a great deal. In contrast we have strong reason to suspect that the East Asian component arrived relatively recently with the Turks, and we see that its aspect is most evident among the groups which were nomadic within living memory, the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. These two ethnicities, which are really compounds of several tribes or “hordes,” were only marginally integrated into sedentary Islamic society where the Tajik element would be prominent (shamanism among many of these tribes only disappeared under the influence of the Islamic missionaries sponsored by Russian Empire). I think this pattern is reinforced by what we saw in the correspondence analysis, where the Turkic groups exhibited a linear distribution toward East Asia, while the Iranian ones were placed where you’d expect them geographically. Finally, I want to note that Dienekes observes that using South Asians as a Central Asian population source is strange since South Asia is more appropriately thought of as a demographic sink for Turan. True, but the HGDP populations are strongly biased toward groups with relatively little indigenous South Asian ancestry, with the Sindhi being the only Indo-Aryan speakers within the set. So I think that objection is mitigated by these factors. Rather, the Iranian-speaking Pakistani groups serve as proxies for the original Central Asian Iranian substrate, from which both they and the Tajiks presumably derive.

    Moving back to the Turk vs. Iranian distinction, the authors note that the Turkic groups exhibit a strong degree of genetic homogeneity on the Y chromosomal lineages. This points to the possible manner in which the East Asian genetic element spread in Central Asia, not necessarily just through population displacement, but also through polygamy and the high reproductive fitness of particular “super-male” lineages. The children of elite Turkic men who took Iranian wives presumably adopted the culture of their fathers, including the linguistic identity. This may have been particularly easy in Central Asia because they did not have to repudiate their maternal heritage in totality, as Persian culture still had great status and currency. If we partition the ancestry into “East Eurasian” and “West Eurasian” components the Turkic groups have much more of the latter than the Iranian ones have of the former. That stands to reason as the Turks were newcomers, and an elite which the locals would wish to assimilate to if they had the opportunity. In contrast, the shift from Turk to Iranian may have been rarer, and a switch which individuals would wish to avoid since the latter did not have the same level of temporal power. Over ~1,500 years gene flow does occur between the groups, and even the Yagnobis have appreciable East Asian ancestry. Eventually the linguistic differences would probably be dwarfed by the geographical ones, but currently we’re taking a snapshot of a “transient.”

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    There’s so much BS in Razib’s text, that I dont even bother to refute his every falsehood. But some are so glaring that I must refute them.

    They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).

    Roman statesman and historian Jordanes, who had lived for a some time among Huns and even met Attila, described how Attila looked in one of his surviving writings.

    “He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidence of his origin.”

    Romans never described Germanic people in this way. In my opinion this description fits perfectly with a tanned steppe nomad man.

    It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians

    Its not only Muslim historians who wrote so, but Tibetan, Russian and Chinese too. There are multiple mentions in old Tibetan texts how this or that Lama argued with some Mongol Khan why he should not kill those Chinese under his rule, who were deemed useless by the Khan. Yes there are mentions in Tibetan texts how Mongols killed old and infirm Chinese because they were not productive enough. Anyway writing about “total extermination” is a straw man, no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man, just that they killed a huge part of some nation, or destroyed some city almost completely.

    Its clear that Mongol invasion changed dramatically demographics in Central Asia, but its maximalist to claim that native inhabitants were totally obliterated, as its also to claim that the change was slow and gradual, great part survived and mixed with the conquerors, and lost some of their culture, or why all records of Khorasmian language disappear after the Mongol conquest, even Soghdian survives as Yaghnobi language in Pamir mountains, so the invasion must have been quite shock for the sedentary populations of Amu darya.

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.

    All Turks are Turks except those raped Greeks, Armenians and Persians larping as Turks. IT’S SO FRICKING SIMPLE!

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi


    no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man
     
    Oh I should have mentioned Tanguts. They were not completely exterminated, but almost. Its a very sad story, they were related to Tibetans and inhabited lands between Tibet and Mongolia or China proper and Xinjiang, had their own interesting culture, literature and history. Chingghis Khaan for some reason wanted their complete destruction, so their civilization was completely destroyed. But at least Chinese got new lands to settle.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Western_Xia.png

    Tanguts also loved to build cone like pyramids.

    https://live.staticflickr.com/714/22750291470_926fe7596e_b.jpg

    They were also somehow responsible for the Great Khaans death, which sealed their fate in the eyes of the Mongols.
  152. @Radicalcenter
    @AaronB

    To their good fortune, your Ashkenazi forebears mixed en masse with Italians, and to a lesser extent with Germanics and Slavs. That is a far cry from mass mixing with Africans or Pakistanis/Indians, and you know it.

    If not, tell us about your efforts to convince Israelis to open their doors wide to mass African, Arab, and Pakistani/Indian immigration..... (cue the John Derbyshire crickets)

    Also, you should take the lead and marry and procreate with an African or Pakistani. It would be a Schande if you didn’t follow your own advice. And be sure to post some wedding photos.

    Replies: @AaronB

    When Jews married local Italians, they were a racial mixture of Latin, Gothic, and the many ex slaves of the Roman Empire. This was not an especially high quality population at the time – indeed, Dark Ages Europe was not a notably high quality population at the time.

    And Jews experienced an ethnic infusion of 50% – much higher than I envisioned for Europe.

    Today, Ashkenazi are intermarrying at a high rate with Brown Jews – the equivalent of Pakistanis/Arabs, and it is producing a vigorous, attractive, and successful hybrid stock.

    So I am certainly not suggesting anything for you that I am not suggesting for Jews – in fact, I am suggesting a significantly lower rate of ethnic mixing for Europe, and merely entertaining the possibility that it may lead to an exciting new hybrid stock. I am not even prescribjng anything.

    Concerns about lowering quality are legitimate, but hard to calculate. Introducing a “fun loving”, or artistic, element into dour northerners may be a positive addition to the whole, just as fusing with a more earthy, “physical” element is good for Ashkenazim.

    Plus things develop in unforeseen ways once a nation begins the process of assimilation. No one could have guessed that mixture of Goths, Latins, Gauls, and ex slaves from across the Empire would create one of the words most brilliant cultures.

    And I am not saying Europe should continue allowing immigration. It should have stopped yesterday.

    And I am not even saying this will necessarily leas to a successful hybrid stock.

  153. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Do you have any noble, higher feelings in you Altan or do you have to view everything through the angle of petty ethnic resentment? Are you ever able to take the eagle-eyed "large view" and see the world and humanity sub specie aeternitas or are you always mired in petty squabbles and jealousies?

    Don't answer :)

    I've said the Jews went through a much more severe mixture and undergoing a massive one today in Israel.

    The so called Jewish nation has withered and died many times and become reborn with new ethnic mixtures and on a new cultural basis many times. And it is doing so again.

    In this it is similar to Europe. Death-and-rebirth, the new-but-old pattern...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Good answer, you answered just like I expected you would. But what about Mizrahi Jews? Have they withered, died and mixed, or the men of your priestly caste, the Levites? Thus one can claim that the core of ancient Jewish nation is still quite extant, without withering, dying and mixing.

    For clarification, I don’t see mixing between Eurasian populations as a great danger, heck I’m myself a product of such mixing.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    Jews of all stripes probably bear the sane relation to ancient Hebrews as Italians do to Romans.

    Fact is, the ancient Hebrews as well as the ancient Romans are an extinct race. This does not mean that the genes of these races are lost - they have simply flowed into a larger gene pool and become one strain among several.

    This happens all the time and is the way of nature -nature is making constant experiments, combining and recombinant.

    The idea of a "pure race" does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind - like an "aristocratic stock" that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    Yet the interesting thing is, that no aristocracy retains its vitality unless it receives periodic fusions of new blood. There seems to be an inexorable process of genetic decay - perhaps caused by genetic drift - in any closed aristocracy that leads to eventual decay. Entropy is always waiting behind the scenes.

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) - which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    The ancient Hebrews would never have been able to retain their vitality down the centuries had they remained a "pure stock". They would today be nobodies. It is precisely because Jews continue to mix that they manage to constantly reinvent themselves and keep entropy at bay. And they are doing it again is Israel in a big way. Slavic blood, Arab blood, European blood, Ethiopian blood, and all the many diverse communities of Jews from everywhere - what will come of it?

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AltanBakshi

  154. @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    There's so much BS in Razib's text, that I dont even bother to refute his every falsehood. But some are so glaring that I must refute them.


    They refer to Huns as having “brought the East-Asian anthropological phenotype to Central Asia.” There is no clear definite foundation for this assertion. Unfortunately historians do not have a clear idea what the ethno-linguistic character of the Huns was. By the time Roman observers encountered them the Hunnic horde seems to have been predominantly German, with a Iranian (Alan) secondary component, the Huns themselves being a small elite (Attila’s name itself may be Gothic). In light of subsequent eruptions into Europe of Turkic and Ugric nomads it is easy to slot the Huns into this exotic category, but the primary literature makes it clear that you can’t ascertain their ethnic character from the contemporary sources (the “White Huns” of Central and South Asia had no real connection to the Huns of Europe).
     
    Roman statesman and historian Jordanes, who had lived for a some time among Huns and even met Attila, described how Attila looked in one of his surviving writings.

    "He was short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidence of his origin."


    Romans never described Germanic people in this way. In my opinion this description fits perfectly with a tanned steppe nomad man.


    It is true that European observers of the Mongol expansion did not have a sanguine attitude. But the idea that Mongols were genocidal exterminationists really comes to us via the Islamic historians
     
    Its not only Muslim historians who wrote so, but Tibetan, Russian and Chinese too. There are multiple mentions in old Tibetan texts how this or that Lama argued with some Mongol Khan why he should not kill those Chinese under his rule, who were deemed useless by the Khan. Yes there are mentions in Tibetan texts how Mongols killed old and infirm Chinese because they were not productive enough. Anyway writing about "total extermination" is a straw man, no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man, just that they killed a huge part of some nation, or destroyed some city almost completely.

    Its clear that Mongol invasion changed dramatically demographics in Central Asia, but its maximalist to claim that native inhabitants were totally obliterated, as its also to claim that the change was slow and gradual, great part survived and mixed with the conquerors, and lost some of their culture, or why all records of Khorasmian language disappear after the Mongol conquest, even Soghdian survives as Yaghnobi language in Pamir mountains, so the invasion must have been quite shock for the sedentary populations of Amu darya.

    It’s complicated. And one has to be very careful about using terms like “Turk” in a localized context, vs. a more international one. The Turks of Turkey are overwhelming derived from the same source populations as their Balkan (because of Rumelian Turks), Iranian, and Armenian, neighbors. The decline in East Asian fraction is evident even in this sample, as the Turcomans from western Uzbekistan have the least eastern ancestry of any of the groups.
     
    All Turks are Turks except those raped Greeks, Armenians and Persians larping as Turks. IT'S SO FRICKING SIMPLE!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    no Muslim or any other has ever claimed that Mongols destroyed some particular nation to last man

    Oh I should have mentioned Tanguts. They were not completely exterminated, but almost. Its a very sad story, they were related to Tibetans and inhabited lands between Tibet and Mongolia or China proper and Xinjiang, had their own interesting culture, literature and history. Chingghis Khaan for some reason wanted their complete destruction, so their civilization was completely destroyed. But at least Chinese got new lands to settle.

    Tanguts also loved to build cone like pyramids.

    They were also somehow responsible for the Great Khaans death, which sealed their fate in the eyes of the Mongols.

  155. @Anatoly Karlin
    Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

    Replies: @FerW

    410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.

    What do you mean? Perhaps you wanted to write “unnecessary”? Presumably a big majority of those new citizens are ethnically- and fealty-wise very close to Russians already, not the less from the LDNR area, as you seem to notice by bringing up that “passport-giving program”. With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.

    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.

    Disrespectful.

    I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia.

    Hm. I feel a sudden need to learn Russian…

    • Replies: @AP
    @FerW


    With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.
     
    I think these are people still living in Donbas, who now have Russian citizenship. Storming it would thus lead to the killing of Russian citizens, which would likely trigger a Russian response. Ukraine would less interested in a full on war with Russia than in simply storming this region.

    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  156. @FerW
    @Anatoly Karlin


    410,000 Ukrainians became Russian citizens. The passport-giving program in the LDNR is evidently advancing at an increasing clip. This makes the prospect of a Ukrainian “Operation Storm” increasingly unfeasible.
     
    What do you mean? Perhaps you wanted to write "unnecessary"? Presumably a big majority of those new citizens are ethnically- and fealty-wise very close to Russians already, not the less from the LDNR area, as you seem to notice by bringing up that "passport-giving program". With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to "storm" it.

    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.
     
    Disrespectful.

    I happen to live in the part of Moscow that happens to have the highest density of Blacks in Russia.
     
    Hm. I feel a sudden need to learn Russian...

    Replies: @AP

    With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.

    I think these are people still living in Donbas, who now have Russian citizenship. Storming it would thus lead to the killing of Russian citizens, which would likely trigger a Russian response. Ukraine would less interested in a full on war with Russia than in simply storming this region.

    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.
     
    That required Ukrainian consent, which was unlikely in any case. The smart Ukrainians, such as Alexander Motyl, were already well-aware of this back in 2014 and thus have already advocated for a while that Ukraine should leave the Donbass alone for the time being.
  157. @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    Good answer, you answered just like I expected you would. But what about Mizrahi Jews? Have they withered, died and mixed, or the men of your priestly caste, the Levites? Thus one can claim that the core of ancient Jewish nation is still quite extant, without withering, dying and mixing.

    For clarification, I don't see mixing between Eurasian populations as a great danger, heck I'm myself a product of such mixing.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    Jews of all stripes probably bear the sane relation to ancient Hebrews as Italians do to Romans.

    Fact is, the ancient Hebrews as well as the ancient Romans are an extinct race. This does not mean that the genes of these races are lost – they have simply flowed into a larger gene pool and become one strain among several.

    This happens all the time and is the way of nature -nature is making constant experiments, combining and recombinant.

    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    Yet the interesting thing is, that no aristocracy retains its vitality unless it receives periodic fusions of new blood. There seems to be an inexorable process of genetic decay – perhaps caused by genetic drift – in any closed aristocracy that leads to eventual decay. Entropy is always waiting behind the scenes.

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) – which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    The ancient Hebrews would never have been able to retain their vitality down the centuries had they remained a “pure stock”. They would today be nobodies. It is precisely because Jews continue to mix that they manage to constantly reinvent themselves and keep entropy at bay. And they are doing it again is Israel in a big way. Slavic blood, Arab blood, European blood, Ethiopian blood, and all the many diverse communities of Jews from everywhere – what will come of it?

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @AaronB


    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) – which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.
     
    I think social mobility in the past, pre-industrial revolution, was largely downward. The upper classes had more surviving children (usually about 3 times more) than those at the bottom. There wasn't space or positions available for most of them at their parents level, so they were gradually pushed down the social scale. Descendants of some of those noble surnames are probably overrepresented at every level of society compared to the poor of their era whose children didn't survive.
    , @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB


    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

     

    According to genetic studies you are wrong.

    Y-chromosomal Aaron is the name given to the hypothesized most recent common ancestor of the patrilineal Jewish priestly caste known as Kohanim (singular "Kohen", also spelled "Cohen"). According to the Hebrew Bible, this ancestor was Aaron, the brother of Moses.

    The original scientific research was based on the hypothesis that a majority of present-day Jewish Kohanim share a pattern of values for six Y-STR markers, which researchers named the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).[1] Subsequent research using twelve Y-STR markers indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim shared Y-chromosomal J1 M267, (specifically haplogroup J-P58, also called J1c3), while other Kohanim share a different ancestry, such as haplogroup J2a (J-M410).

    Molecular phylogenetics research published in 2013, 2016, and 2020 for haplogroup J1 (J-M267) places the Y-chromosomal Aaron within subhaplogroup Z18271, age estimate 2,638–3,280 years Before Present (yBP)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron (what a coincidence?)
     
    Also Mizrahis are genetically surprisingly homogenic and have mostly common ancestors or so its written in the Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews


    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.
     
    I fully agree, still all things exist relatively or in relation with something else. So relatively speaking some Jewish groups are very homogenic and inbred in comparison with people like Russians or Chinese. Or why else do Ashkenazim have so many various hereditary diseases?

    I think its silly that the Jews are blamed wrongly for some ills of the modern era, like universalism of modern West, some even here on this site believe that there's ancient Semitic conspiracy or masterplan to infiltrate western spirituality and philosophy, that somehow universalism and multiculturalism are Jewish inventions forced upon weak Goyim, so that their societies would crumble or go under Jewish rule, how conveniently such people forget how the Rome was founded as a refuge for escaped slaves, convicts and vagrants, in other words for people without roots, or that ancient Greeks believed that they could Hellenize the local populations of Asia Minor, Greater Iran and Syria. What else than universalism was the policy of Alexander the Macedonian and Seleucids to bring all the cultural institutions of Hellas to places like Afghanistan, or how they arranged mass marriages between Greeks and native people of Middle East. But no for some people in this site ancient Europeans were some kind of proto-völkisch nature worshipping nazis, before they were tainted by the evil Semitic masterplan of Christianity and Islam.

    Dont misunderstand me, Islam and Judaism are in my opinion highly controversial religions, but not for silly reasons espoused by most people on this site.

    Spiritually speaking there is not much Aryan in them, and I do mean it in a spiritual sense, not in the way how nazis falsely used it. They appropriated it like black nationalists have appropriated ancient Egyptian civilization, shame on them!

    To claim that people are better or more special because of their community they belong or identity they espouse and not because of their acts, is not Aryan way to believe. (Sher Singh is this not how Guru Nanak too believed?)

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  158. @(((They))) Live
    There is an “Afroshop” a few blocks from where I live. When I paid them a visit, the female shopkeeper asked me, in English, “What are you doing here?” in a surly tone.


    I do hope you replied with the same question

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ

    I’d respond that I’m here for some of that sweet, sweet thicc ebony booty! 😀 Rawr! 😉

  159. @AP
    @FerW


    With less such people in LNDR, the Ukraine would, one supposes, find it more, not less, feasible to “storm” it.
     
    I think these are people still living in Donbas, who now have Russian citizenship. Storming it would thus lead to the killing of Russian citizens, which would likely trigger a Russian response. Ukraine would less interested in a full on war with Russia than in simply storming this region.

    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Hopefully the presence of all these Russian citizens means that Russia won’t be trying to shove this region back into Ukraine.

    That required Ukrainian consent, which was unlikely in any case. The smart Ukrainians, such as Alexander Motyl, were already well-aware of this back in 2014 and thus have already advocated for a while that Ukraine should leave the Donbass alone for the time being.

  160. Bold PREDICTION: Russia (as well as most of Europe and probably even Japan) will have a higher TFR than the Central Asian countries come 2050.

    This might make Russia more enthusiastic about the Eurasian Economic Union in the long(er)-run–though possibly Central Asia less so, due to the greater Russian domination that this will result in. Of course, this might simply result in Central Asians pushing Afghanistan (if it will sufficiently moderate by then, that is) and/or Iran to join the Eurasian Economic Union so that Muslims could achieve greater demographic parity there.

  161. @AP
    @Shortsword


    People in Belarus probably get more things for free outside of wages. Living standards are definitely higher than in Ukraine
     
    Maybe. I’ve visited Ukraine and am in touch with relatives there, but not so with Belarus. Living standards in Kiev and Lviv are fine, but I’ve seen some very poor rural areas.

    Where is the growth in Ukraine coming from? Is it all cheap IT outsourcing?
     
    They’ve been building plants producing wiring and such for German auto manufacturers in places like Zhytomir and Vynnytsia. These regions have seen significant improvement. One of my cousins from this area took his family on vacation to Turkey and another to Egypt in 2019. This was the first time they were able to do foreign trips to beach resorts. This anecdote is supported by Turkish statistics showing record number of vacationers from Ukraine in 2019.

    Salaries are improving because if they are too low, workers will simply move to Poland. It is cheaper for companies to raise salaries in Ukraine to a level that is still much lower than in Poland but that is an improvement for Ukraine (enough to keep people local).

    Basically all industry is dead
     
    Depending on statistics there has been either steady decline, or stagnation - not utter collapse. Loss of some industries has been compensated by improvement elsewhere. But manufacturing overall had been a weak spot- IT services, agriculture, construction have been good.

    About 5k cars produced per year
     
    Yes but production of car parts such as wiring for cars has increased:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Ukraine industries strive to bring migrant workers home

    Car parts manufacturing is thriving, but many workers have left...



    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds...

    Article was from late 2018.

    Why doesn’t Volkswagen open a factory in Ukraine?
     
    Too much risk for such a largescale investment?

    Replies: @Shortsword

    So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain?

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Shortsword


    So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain
     
    Correct. Ukraine also has developed some weird niche specialties. A large percentage of ski equipment is made in Ukraine (recently there was a fire at Fischer's largest factory, which is in Ukraine):

    https://www.intellinews.com/fire-nearly-destroys-legendary-fischer-ski-factory-in-ukraine-194516/

    The Fischer ski factory in Ukraine must be one of the country’s best kept secrets. Set up in the 40s and employing over 1,000 people, it produces about 60% of all the skis and snowboards that ride the mountains of Europe each season, and many other pieces of equipment to boot, not that most punters are aware as they don't carry a “made in Ukraine” sticker on them.

    Now disaster has struck. A fire burned almost half of factory, by far Europe’s largest ski manufacturer, at the weekend, which is located in Mukachevo in the Carpathian mountains in western Ukraine.

    Apart from skis, the Mukachevo factory produces ice hockey sticks, equipping 27 teams of the National Hockey League.

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?
     
    Due to a drought, Ukraine saw a drop in production in 2020 after a record-breaking 2019:

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraine-grain-exports-up-24-in-201920-season-so-far

    Ukraine's grain exports are up around 24% at 40.9 million tonnes so far in the July 2019 to June 2020 season, the Ministry for Development of Economy, Trade and Agriculture said on Monday.

    Wheat exports have risen to 16.6 million tonnes, the ministry said in a statement. Ukraine has also exported about 4 million tonnes of barley and 19.8 million tonnes of corn, it added.

    The country harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019, compared with 70 million tonnes in 2018.

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraines-202021-grain-exports-fall-198-so-far

    KYIV, Aug 19 (Reuters) - Ukraine's grain exports have declined to 5.10 million tonnes so far in the 2020/21 July-June season, from 6.36 million tonnes at the same point of the previous season, the economy ministry said on Wednesday.

    The total volume has shrunk mainly due to lower exports of corn. Traders have sold 502,000 tonnes as of Aug. 19 compared to 1.68 million tonnes by the same date last season.

    The exports have also included 3.03 million tonnes of wheat and 1.56 million tonnes of barley.

    The ministry did not clarify whether the exported grain was harvested in 2020 or in 2019.

    Ukraine harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019. The ministry expects that output could fall this year to 72.1 million tonnes because of poor weather.

    The country is the world's fourth-largest wheat exporter with 56.5 million tonnes of grain sold in the 2019/20 season. The government has not given a grain export forecast for 2020/21. (Reporting by Natalia Zinets; editing by David Evans)
  162. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    Jews of all stripes probably bear the sane relation to ancient Hebrews as Italians do to Romans.

    Fact is, the ancient Hebrews as well as the ancient Romans are an extinct race. This does not mean that the genes of these races are lost - they have simply flowed into a larger gene pool and become one strain among several.

    This happens all the time and is the way of nature -nature is making constant experiments, combining and recombinant.

    The idea of a "pure race" does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind - like an "aristocratic stock" that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    Yet the interesting thing is, that no aristocracy retains its vitality unless it receives periodic fusions of new blood. There seems to be an inexorable process of genetic decay - perhaps caused by genetic drift - in any closed aristocracy that leads to eventual decay. Entropy is always waiting behind the scenes.

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) - which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    The ancient Hebrews would never have been able to retain their vitality down the centuries had they remained a "pure stock". They would today be nobodies. It is precisely because Jews continue to mix that they manage to constantly reinvent themselves and keep entropy at bay. And they are doing it again is Israel in a big way. Slavic blood, Arab blood, European blood, Ethiopian blood, and all the many diverse communities of Jews from everywhere - what will come of it?

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AltanBakshi

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) – which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    I think social mobility in the past, pre-industrial revolution, was largely downward. The upper classes had more surviving children (usually about 3 times more) than those at the bottom. There wasn’t space or positions available for most of them at their parents level, so they were gradually pushed down the social scale. Descendants of some of those noble surnames are probably overrepresented at every level of society compared to the poor of their era whose children didn’t survive.

  163. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    You are now doing quite much cherry picking with your Kalash photos, children are almost everywhere fairer than adult folks.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57125c2c2b8dde54a34b537f/1555842258162-FUNX8XGYY0IHFP3KUGZ4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFTEgwhRQcX9r3XtU0e50sUUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcW7uEhC96WQdj-SwE5EpM0lAopPba9ZX3O0oeNTVSRxdHAmtcci_6bmVLoSDQq_pb/maxresdefault.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/y39msuZBzIsN-nKGp63lAk2t87b9j36kY-759-CnWl6KwXVKZKekIdyANIMFAkwqRSUDH9hZQAumlYywQD_qUWfXoGn4pCE370okPjUR5QTFM_8WYw

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/49/6b/66496b50dbfa691984d4b68aaf84bf4e.jpg

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    By the way I found again one good proof for the Aryanness of the historical Buddha. Two first laymen to convert to Buddhism were two merchants from Bactria, named Trapusa and Bhallika, in those times Aryan Scythians/Saka inhabited that once famous land. I think it tells something that the first men who came to Buddhism were from Bactria, or maybe its just a coincidence, but my intuition says otherwise.

    Anyway there are no pure, or even mostly pure Aryans left, but their genes have spread wide and far, and it can be said that Punjabis and some Russian people have around ~40% their heritage from the ancient Aryans.

    Buddha's people the Shakyas were pure Aryans, and they guarded ferociously the purity of their bloodline from mingling with those who they saw lesser than themselves(almost everybody else, lol), but, alas, all Shakyans perished in battle against the army of kingdom of Kosala, only those men survived who had become mendicants in Buddha's monastic order. Still what happened to their women? This is my speculation, but I think that they burned themselves in mass Jauhar, after all they were famous for their pride. Such women would have chosen burning over desecration, and such cases of Ksathriya women burning themselves after the defeat and slaughter of their men in battle, have been recorded multiple times in history.

    There's nothing more Aryan than willingly perishing in flames! So please people remember that in the struggle against the great Satan of our times! What else a nuclear war would be but one great and radiant Jauhar! I'm of course writing metaphorically, so don't take me too seriously...

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.

    I was under the impression that the Ancient Aryans looked like modern day Georgians?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    How the Ancient Aryans looked? Quite a complicated question, for there were various cultures in ancient times, loosely connected with each other, in different eras of history, in different areas of Eurasia which called themselves Aryan.

    I believe that the first culture that called themselves Aryans were people of the Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals, one good proof for this is that the word for slave in the Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya, and Finnic peoples have retained lots of ancient Indo-European, Germanic, Baltic etc loanwords in more archaic form than those words have survived in their original languages.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja
    They probably were quite fair and European looking though still distinct, but later when they spread to Central Asia and areas of BMAC/Bactria-MArgiana complex, they mixed strongly with locals, and I think that if you would mix a Russian with a Tajik you would get a person who would genetically at least crudely resemble those Aryans of the Central Asia, who later invaded Indian Subcontinent and Iranian plateau. These Aryans who had mixed with the native people of Iranian plateau and Afghanistan, belong to the so called Andronovo culture, though they also had little bit Eastern Asian admixture. Georgians are not much connected with Ancient Aryans and are in my limited knowledge more related to ancient native populations of Middle East, than with the Ancient Aryans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Bashibuzuk

  164. @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    Armenia, Belarus ( by a long distance), Azerbaijan and even Moldova are much richer in wages than Banderastan
     
    Net monthly salary from wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    However much demented editing of idiotic wikipedia pages you do
     
    LOL, I never edited that page. Which of these editors do you think is me?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage&action=history

    the fake “increase” outside of the obvious lying data by the authorities
     
    Are the Turks also lying?

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture/despite-pandemic-ukrainians-flock-to-turkish-riviera/2001637

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    The 2019 figure of 1.6 million compares to 1.2 million in 2017

    Any more fantasies? I’m still almost injured from laughter at “traditional Galician culture ” video.
     
    LOL, you are still jealous about the Galician girls wearing nicer dresses than the ones you wear.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Gerard-Mandela

    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.

    HAHAHAHAHA! As I have said before you idiot – to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false it’s beyond a joke. Only an imbecile thinks wage is higher in Moldova than Belarus , only an imbecile ( and/or fantasist) thinks wages are higher in Kiev than Belarus…and that’s before we get to Ukrop pitiful average and Belarus. Only an imbecile thinks wages in Azerbaijan are lower than Ukraine………only a severely retarded idiot then not only propagates this BS – but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing……..THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!! LOL. By implication the wages in the North Caucasus are higher than Belarus…this is ridiculous. And yes – Gruzia and Armenia with all their problems are still more prosperous than ukropia

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

    hahaha! Again as with the truly bizarre thing where I made a joke about the film Deliverance onto trash like you…then you somehow copied the joke and pretend it as your own…..you have literally just plagiarized my factually correct criticism of you, just copying links and not having any knowledge of the area and falsely projected in onto me….probably knowing 100% I was going to critisise you for your zero knowledge, experience and wikipedia copying BS. In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia…..but more importantly my comments on wages are based entirely on friends, connection, family and just being closely linked to Ukraine all my life you idiot..in other words entirely anecdotal and common sense…not falsely copied and pasted wikipedia garbage.

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.

    FFS – Antalya is basically a Russian city in Turkey you idiot . When I can be bothered I will complete my point. All for now I will say is that only somebody with zero knowledge of Ukraine would make that cretinous point

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false
     
    Whom to believe, a sourced wikipedia page about average European wages or an innumerate Sovok failed "engineer" masquerading as a female, who is jealous of teenage Galician girls because they wear dresses that are nicer than the ones he/she can afford to wear.

    Again:

    https://i.imgur.com/xAPEovu.png

    but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing……..THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!
     
    So according to you some information there is fake and some is not, depending on what you like. Whatever.

    I suspect Moldova's wages have risen and are now slightly higher than those in both Ukraine and Belarus due to closer links to Romania, which has become wealthier than Russia (Romanian average wage 743 Euros versus Russian average wage 449 Euros). However Moldova has also became more expensive so adjusted for cost of living it remains poorer than both Ukraine or Belarus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    I made a joke about the film Deliverance
     
    You seem to be proud of expertise in this movie. Lots of experience in that stuff?

    In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia
     
    Thanks for the confession, and explanation for your confusion.
  165. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    Jews of all stripes probably bear the sane relation to ancient Hebrews as Italians do to Romans.

    Fact is, the ancient Hebrews as well as the ancient Romans are an extinct race. This does not mean that the genes of these races are lost - they have simply flowed into a larger gene pool and become one strain among several.

    This happens all the time and is the way of nature -nature is making constant experiments, combining and recombinant.

    The idea of a "pure race" does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind - like an "aristocratic stock" that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    Yet the interesting thing is, that no aristocracy retains its vitality unless it receives periodic fusions of new blood. There seems to be an inexorable process of genetic decay - perhaps caused by genetic drift - in any closed aristocracy that leads to eventual decay. Entropy is always waiting behind the scenes.

    Gregory Clark famously showed that in England, noble surnames continue to be overrepresented in distinguished professions (even though modern professions have nothing to do with the skills an ancient nobility needed) - which obviously means ambitious people from the lower classes were marrying into the nobility and adopting their surnames at a steady rate.

    The ancient Hebrews would never have been able to retain their vitality down the centuries had they remained a "pure stock". They would today be nobodies. It is precisely because Jews continue to mix that they manage to constantly reinvent themselves and keep entropy at bay. And they are doing it again is Israel in a big way. Slavic blood, Arab blood, European blood, Ethiopian blood, and all the many diverse communities of Jews from everywhere - what will come of it?

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AltanBakshi

    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

    According to genetic studies you are wrong.

    Y-chromosomal Aaron is the name given to the hypothesized most recent common ancestor of the patrilineal Jewish priestly caste known as Kohanim (singular “Kohen”, also spelled “Cohen”). According to the Hebrew Bible, this ancestor was Aaron, the brother of Moses.

    The original scientific research was based on the hypothesis that a majority of present-day Jewish Kohanim share a pattern of values for six Y-STR markers, which researchers named the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).[1] Subsequent research using twelve Y-STR markers indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim shared Y-chromosomal J1 M267, (specifically haplogroup J-P58, also called J1c3), while other Kohanim share a different ancestry, such as haplogroup J2a (J-M410).

    Molecular phylogenetics research published in 2013, 2016, and 2020 for haplogroup J1 (J-M267) places the Y-chromosomal Aaron within subhaplogroup Z18271, age estimate 2,638–3,280 years Before Present (yBP)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron (what a coincidence?)

    Also Mizrahis are genetically surprisingly homogenic and have mostly common ancestors or so its written in the Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.

    I fully agree, still all things exist relatively or in relation with something else. So relatively speaking some Jewish groups are very homogenic and inbred in comparison with people like Russians or Chinese. Or why else do Ashkenazim have so many various hereditary diseases?

    I think its silly that the Jews are blamed wrongly for some ills of the modern era, like universalism of modern West, some even here on this site believe that there’s ancient Semitic conspiracy or masterplan to infiltrate western spirituality and philosophy, that somehow universalism and multiculturalism are Jewish inventions forced upon weak Goyim, so that their societies would crumble or go under Jewish rule, how conveniently such people forget how the Rome was founded as a refuge for escaped slaves, convicts and vagrants, in other words for people without roots, or that ancient Greeks believed that they could Hellenize the local populations of Asia Minor, Greater Iran and Syria. What else than universalism was the policy of Alexander the Macedonian and Seleucids to bring all the cultural institutions of Hellas to places like Afghanistan, or how they arranged mass marriages between Greeks and native people of Middle East. But no for some people in this site ancient Europeans were some kind of proto-völkisch nature worshipping nazis, before they were tainted by the evil Semitic masterplan of Christianity and Islam.

    Dont misunderstand me, Islam and Judaism are in my opinion highly controversial religions, but not for silly reasons espoused by most people on this site.

    Spiritually speaking there is not much Aryan in them, and I do mean it in a spiritual sense, not in the way how nazis falsely used it. They appropriated it like black nationalists have appropriated ancient Egyptian civilization, shame on them!

    To claim that people are better or more special because of their community they belong or identity they espouse and not because of their acts, is not Aryan way to believe. (Sher Singh is this not how Guru Nanak too believed?)

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Y-chromosomal Aaron
     
    Is found in the majority of the Saudi Arabian males.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  166. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @AltanBakshi


    Please dont spread Nordicist racial fantasies. Ancient Aryans were fairer than modern day Indians or Iranians, but they were still genetically much closer to modern day Punjabis and Tajiks than they are to modern Spanish or Anglos.
     
    I was under the impression that the Ancient Aryans looked like modern day Georgians?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    How the Ancient Aryans looked? Quite a complicated question, for there were various cultures in ancient times, loosely connected with each other, in different eras of history, in different areas of Eurasia which called themselves Aryan.

    I believe that the first culture that called themselves Aryans were people of the Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals, one good proof for this is that the word for slave in the Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya, and Finnic peoples have retained lots of ancient Indo-European, Germanic, Baltic etc loanwords in more archaic form than those words have survived in their original languages.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja
    They probably were quite fair and European looking though still distinct, but later when they spread to Central Asia and areas of BMAC/Bactria-MArgiana complex, they mixed strongly with locals, and I think that if you would mix a Russian with a Tajik you would get a person who would genetically at least crudely resemble those Aryans of the Central Asia, who later invaded Indian Subcontinent and Iranian plateau. These Aryans who had mixed with the native people of Iranian plateau and Afghanistan, belong to the so called Andronovo culture, though they also had little bit Eastern Asian admixture. Georgians are not much connected with Ancient Aryans and are in my limited knowledge more related to ancient native populations of Middle East, than with the Ancient Aryans.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya
     
    Orati is the ancient Rus verb for toiling the land . Orat' in modern Russian is screaming loud, coming from the fact that when labouring the fields the villagers used to scream at their beasts of burden.

    Оратай, Оратель и Ратай — м. устар. 1. То же, что: землепашец Толковый словарь Ефремовой. Т. Ф. Ефремова. 2000 … Современный толковый словарь русского языка Ефремовой

    ОРАТАЙ — ОРАТАЙ, оратель и пр. см. орать. Толковый словарь Даля. В.И. Даль. 1863 1866 … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    оратай — землероб, земледелец, крестьянин, пахарь, ратай, хлебопашец Словарь русских синонимов. оратай см. земледелец Словарь синонимов русского языка. Практический справочник. М.: Русский язык. З. Е. Александрова

     

    That's where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Although the migration of Y haplogroup N1a Tat from the paleo-Siberian to other ethnic groups and its presence among the elites of the Huns, Turks, Magyar is certainly interesting.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    That's how the Aryans looked like:

    https://i.redd.it/l7p1ewsg3e141.png

    https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1680084/pub_5e7a6d164432af1a9b943017_5e7a86f87bd8597d62fbc1a5/scale_1200

    Altan is right, they were Corded Ware Culture derived Arkaim Sintashta people admixed with local populations.

    The original Corded Ware Culture people looked like:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/7c/41/607c41205c1e10c46a2611e3d5e53d47.jpg

    Basically like pure blooded Balto - Slavs.

    And the ancestors of the Western Europeans were the swarthy Iberian Bell Beaker folks;

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/12/03/10/6937800-0-image-a-21_1543833264542.jpg

    Quite normal for a population that was living on both sides of the Gibraltar.

    Of course the BBC and the CWC ended up entirely intermixed by the times of late Unetice Culture and early La Tene / Hallstatt Culture (that is Central European Celts).

    https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/171119/view/reconstructed-face-of-the-lindow-man-bog-body

    But among the Balto-Slav and the Ugric populations the CWC ancestry remained the primary and principal component. That is why the Nordic people are more blond etc.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  167. @Shortsword
    @AP

    So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain?

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

    Replies: @AP

    So less finished products and instead more production of parts for a larger supply chain

    Correct. Ukraine also has developed some weird niche specialties. A large percentage of ski equipment is made in Ukraine (recently there was a fire at Fischer’s largest factory, which is in Ukraine):

    https://www.intellinews.com/fire-nearly-destroys-legendary-fischer-ski-factory-in-ukraine-194516/

    The Fischer ski factory in Ukraine must be one of the country’s best kept secrets. Set up in the 40s and employing over 1,000 people, it produces about 60% of all the skis and snowboards that ride the mountains of Europe each season, and many other pieces of equipment to boot, not that most punters are aware as they don’t carry a “made in Ukraine” sticker on them.

    Now disaster has struck. A fire burned almost half of factory, by far Europe’s largest ski manufacturer, at the weekend, which is located in Mukachevo in the Carpathian mountains in western Ukraine.

    Apart from skis, the Mukachevo factory produces ice hockey sticks, equipping 27 teams of the National Hockey League.

    Do you have any numbers of agricultural production and exports by year in Ukraine?

    Due to a drought, Ukraine saw a drop in production in 2020 after a record-breaking 2019:

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraine-grain-exports-up-24-in-201920-season-so-far

    Ukraine’s grain exports are up around 24% at 40.9 million tonnes so far in the July 2019 to June 2020 season, the Ministry for Development of Economy, Trade and Agriculture said on Monday.

    Wheat exports have risen to 16.6 million tonnes, the ministry said in a statement. Ukraine has also exported about 4 million tonnes of barley and 19.8 million tonnes of corn, it added.

    The country harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019, compared with 70 million tonnes in 2018.

    https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/ukraines-202021-grain-exports-fall-198-so-far

    KYIV, Aug 19 (Reuters) – Ukraine’s grain exports have declined to 5.10 million tonnes so far in the 2020/21 July-June season, from 6.36 million tonnes at the same point of the previous season, the economy ministry said on Wednesday.

    The total volume has shrunk mainly due to lower exports of corn. Traders have sold 502,000 tonnes as of Aug. 19 compared to 1.68 million tonnes by the same date last season.

    The exports have also included 3.03 million tonnes of wheat and 1.56 million tonnes of barley.

    The ministry did not clarify whether the exported grain was harvested in 2020 or in 2019.

    Ukraine harvested a record 75.1 million tonnes of grain in 2019. The ministry expects that output could fall this year to 72.1 million tonnes because of poor weather.

    The country is the world’s fourth-largest wheat exporter with 56.5 million tonnes of grain sold in the 2019/20 season. The government has not given a grain export forecast for 2020/21. (Reporting by Natalia Zinets; editing by David Evans)

  168. @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Ukraine is ahead of Belarus, Armenia, and Georgia. It is about tied with Azerbaijan.

    When adjusted for cost of living in addition to these, it beats Albania, Kosovo, Moldova and Azerbaijan (barely).

    Thus its position is better than it had been prior to Maidan, when only Moldova had lower wages.
     
    HAHAHAHAHA! As I have said before you idiot - to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false it's beyond a joke. Only an imbecile thinks wage is higher in Moldova than Belarus , only an imbecile ( and/or fantasist) thinks wages are higher in Kiev than Belarus...and that's before we get to Ukrop pitiful average and Belarus. Only an imbecile thinks wages in Azerbaijan are lower than Ukraine.........only a severely retarded idiot then not only propagates this BS - but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing........THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!! LOL. By implication the wages in the North Caucasus are higher than Belarus...this is ridiculous. And yes - Gruzia and Armenia with all their problems are still more prosperous than ukropia

    This is not surprising for people who know Ukraine, not just read about it from Russian sources (or pro-Russian ones within Ukraine).

     

    hahaha! Again as with the truly bizarre thing where I made a joke about the film Deliverance onto trash like you...then you somehow copied the joke and pretend it as your own.....you have literally just plagiarized my factually correct criticism of you, just copying links and not having any knowledge of the area and falsely projected in onto me....probably knowing 100% I was going to critisise you for your zero knowledge, experience and wikipedia copying BS. In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia.....but more importantly my comments on wages are based entirely on friends, connection, family and just being closely linked to Ukraine all my life you idiot..in other words entirely anecdotal and common sense...not falsely copied and pasted wikipedia garbage.

    Despite the pandemic, some half a million Ukrainian tourists have flocked to a scenic resort on the Turkish Riviera since flights there resumed this summer, said a top tourism official on Friday.

    “Almost 500,000 Ukrainian tourists have visited Antalya since July,” said Nadir Alpaslan, Turkey’s deputy culture and tourism minister, touting the strong numbers in the face of challenging conditions due to coronavirus.

    Last year, nearly 1.6 million Ukrainian tourists vacationed in sunny Antalya, Alpaslan told a meeting of the Turkey-Ukraine Joint Tourism Commission in the Mediterranean resort city.
     
    FFS - Antalya is basically a Russian city in Turkey you idiot . When I can be bothered I will complete my point. All for now I will say is that only somebody with zero knowledge of Ukraine would make that cretinous point

    Replies: @AP

    to anybody with a brain these numbers are so blatantly false

    Whom to believe, a sourced wikipedia page about average European wages or an innumerate Sovok failed “engineer” masquerading as a female, who is jealous of teenage Galician girls because they wear dresses that are nicer than the ones he/she can afford to wear.

    Again:

    but then includes in the already fake link the one true thing……..THAT MOLDOVA HAS HIGHER WAGES THAN BANDERASTAN!

    So according to you some information there is fake and some is not, depending on what you like. Whatever.

    I suspect Moldova’s wages have risen and are now slightly higher than those in both Ukraine and Belarus due to closer links to Romania, which has become wealthier than Russia (Romanian average wage 743 Euros versus Russian average wage 449 Euros). However Moldova has also became more expensive so adjusted for cost of living it remains poorer than both Ukraine or Belarus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    I made a joke about the film Deliverance

    You seem to be proud of expertise in this movie. Lots of experience in that stuff?

    In reality Russian media is the one true , accurate source of news on Ukropia

    Thanks for the confession, and explanation for your confusion.

  169. @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB


    Mizrahi Jews have certainly mixed with local populations, and that is evident in their appearance. And Levites and Cohens do not look significantly different from other Jews, so there is no evidence they represent any purer stock.

     

    According to genetic studies you are wrong.

    Y-chromosomal Aaron is the name given to the hypothesized most recent common ancestor of the patrilineal Jewish priestly caste known as Kohanim (singular "Kohen", also spelled "Cohen"). According to the Hebrew Bible, this ancestor was Aaron, the brother of Moses.

    The original scientific research was based on the hypothesis that a majority of present-day Jewish Kohanim share a pattern of values for six Y-STR markers, which researchers named the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).[1] Subsequent research using twelve Y-STR markers indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim shared Y-chromosomal J1 M267, (specifically haplogroup J-P58, also called J1c3), while other Kohanim share a different ancestry, such as haplogroup J2a (J-M410).

    Molecular phylogenetics research published in 2013, 2016, and 2020 for haplogroup J1 (J-M267) places the Y-chromosomal Aaron within subhaplogroup Z18271, age estimate 2,638–3,280 years Before Present (yBP)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron (what a coincidence?)
     
    Also Mizrahis are genetically surprisingly homogenic and have mostly common ancestors or so its written in the Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews


    The idea of a “pure race” does have an interesting, mythical hold on the imagination of mankind – like an “aristocratic stock” that forever retains its superiority unless it mixes.
     
    I fully agree, still all things exist relatively or in relation with something else. So relatively speaking some Jewish groups are very homogenic and inbred in comparison with people like Russians or Chinese. Or why else do Ashkenazim have so many various hereditary diseases?

    I think its silly that the Jews are blamed wrongly for some ills of the modern era, like universalism of modern West, some even here on this site believe that there's ancient Semitic conspiracy or masterplan to infiltrate western spirituality and philosophy, that somehow universalism and multiculturalism are Jewish inventions forced upon weak Goyim, so that their societies would crumble or go under Jewish rule, how conveniently such people forget how the Rome was founded as a refuge for escaped slaves, convicts and vagrants, in other words for people without roots, or that ancient Greeks believed that they could Hellenize the local populations of Asia Minor, Greater Iran and Syria. What else than universalism was the policy of Alexander the Macedonian and Seleucids to bring all the cultural institutions of Hellas to places like Afghanistan, or how they arranged mass marriages between Greeks and native people of Middle East. But no for some people in this site ancient Europeans were some kind of proto-völkisch nature worshipping nazis, before they were tainted by the evil Semitic masterplan of Christianity and Islam.

    Dont misunderstand me, Islam and Judaism are in my opinion highly controversial religions, but not for silly reasons espoused by most people on this site.

    Spiritually speaking there is not much Aryan in them, and I do mean it in a spiritual sense, not in the way how nazis falsely used it. They appropriated it like black nationalists have appropriated ancient Egyptian civilization, shame on them!

    To claim that people are better or more special because of their community they belong or identity they espouse and not because of their acts, is not Aryan way to believe. (Sher Singh is this not how Guru Nanak too believed?)

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Y-chromosomal Aaron

    Is found in the majority of the Saudi Arabian males.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Ishmaelite or Northern Arabs have always been quite closely related with the ancient people of Kanaan, unlike so called "true Arabs" of the southern Arabian peninsula or Qahtanite Arabs.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  170. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Y-chromosomal Aaron
     
    Is found in the majority of the Saudi Arabian males.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Ishmaelite or Northern Arabs have always been quite closely related with the ancient people of Kanaan, unlike so called “true Arabs” of the southern Arabian peninsula or Qahtanite Arabs.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    The people of Canaan were not of "Y haplogroup Aaron" (an idiotic name the Jewish Israeli geneticist came with). The ancient Canaanite were Y haplogroups J2 like the majority of modern Lebanese .

    I agree about the Qahtanite who were more admixed with Afro-Asiatic populations that carried the Y haplogroup E.

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That's where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  171. @AltanBakshi
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    How the Ancient Aryans looked? Quite a complicated question, for there were various cultures in ancient times, loosely connected with each other, in different eras of history, in different areas of Eurasia which called themselves Aryan.

    I believe that the first culture that called themselves Aryans were people of the Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals, one good proof for this is that the word for slave in the Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya, and Finnic peoples have retained lots of ancient Indo-European, Germanic, Baltic etc loanwords in more archaic form than those words have survived in their original languages.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja
    They probably were quite fair and European looking though still distinct, but later when they spread to Central Asia and areas of BMAC/Bactria-MArgiana complex, they mixed strongly with locals, and I think that if you would mix a Russian with a Tajik you would get a person who would genetically at least crudely resemble those Aryans of the Central Asia, who later invaded Indian Subcontinent and Iranian plateau. These Aryans who had mixed with the native people of Iranian plateau and Afghanistan, belong to the so called Andronovo culture, though they also had little bit Eastern Asian admixture. Georgians are not much connected with Ancient Aryans and are in my limited knowledge more related to ancient native populations of Middle East, than with the Ancient Aryans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Bashibuzuk

    Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya

    Orati is the ancient Rus verb for toiling the land . Orat’ in modern Russian is screaming loud, coming from the fact that when labouring the fields the villagers used to scream at their beasts of burden.

    Оратай, Оратель и Ратай — м. устар. 1. То же, что: землепашец Толковый словарь Ефремовой. Т. Ф. Ефремова. 2000 … Современный толковый словарь русского языка Ефремовой

    ОРАТАЙ — ОРАТАЙ, оратель и пр. см. орать. Толковый словарь Даля. В.И. Даль. 1863 1866 … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    оратай — землероб, земледелец, крестьянин, пахарь, ратай, хлебопашец Словарь русских синонимов. оратай см. земледелец Словарь синонимов русского языка. Практический справочник. М.: Русский язык. З. Е. Александрова

    That’s where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Although the migration of Y haplogroup N1a Tat from the paleo-Siberian to other ethnic groups and its presence among the elites of the Huns, Turks, Magyar is certainly interesting.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    That’s where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).
     
    Calling slaves by the name of the neighbouring population was extremely common occurrence in history, no need for "massive enslaving," just periodical cattle raids and clashes is enough. Don't be so maximalist in your attitude, even though on steppes Ancient Aryans were militarily superior, Ancient Finn's lived in forests and bogs, you cant do much with war chariots in such terrain, so it would not be surprising if Finn's did night time raids against neighbouring Aryans.
  172. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Ishmaelite or Northern Arabs have always been quite closely related with the ancient people of Kanaan, unlike so called "true Arabs" of the southern Arabian peninsula or Qahtanite Arabs.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    The people of Canaan were not of “Y haplogroup Aaron” (an idiotic name the Jewish Israeli geneticist came with). The ancient Canaanite were Y haplogroups J2 like the majority of modern Lebanese .

    I agree about the Qahtanite who were more admixed with Afro-Asiatic populations that carried the Y haplogroup E.

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.
     
    So once again we can see how dramatical was the difference between Northern Kingdom of Israel and religiously more fanatic kingdom of Judah. Am I right? I very much believe that Christ was descendant of the people of ancient Israel, and not of Judah, after all Galilea is situated in the lands of old Northern Kingdom. Also there are quite condemning passages in New Testament about men of Judah.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+5%3A1-30&version=NIV

    Here's one example among many.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  173. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya
     
    Orati is the ancient Rus verb for toiling the land . Orat' in modern Russian is screaming loud, coming from the fact that when labouring the fields the villagers used to scream at their beasts of burden.

    Оратай, Оратель и Ратай — м. устар. 1. То же, что: землепашец Толковый словарь Ефремовой. Т. Ф. Ефремова. 2000 … Современный толковый словарь русского языка Ефремовой

    ОРАТАЙ — ОРАТАЙ, оратель и пр. см. орать. Толковый словарь Даля. В.И. Даль. 1863 1866 … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    ОРАТЬ — ОРАТЬ, орывать землю (ору и орю, орешь) сев. и малорос., новорос. пахать или взрывать, для посева, сабаном, плугом, косулей, сохою, оралом, ралом; местам говорят орать, о сабане, плуге; пахать, о сохе. Орем землю до глины, а едим мякину! Орать… … Толковый словарь Даля

    оратай — землероб, земледелец, крестьянин, пахарь, ратай, хлебопашец Словарь русских синонимов. оратай см. земледелец Словарь синонимов русского языка. Практический справочник. М.: Русский язык. З. Е. Александрова

     

    That's where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Although the migration of Y haplogroup N1a Tat from the paleo-Siberian to other ethnic groups and its presence among the elites of the Huns, Turks, Magyar is certainly interesting.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    That’s where the Finnish orja comes from = peasant / serf. Thinking that the Ugric people have massively enslaved Aryan populations is idiotic (sorry to be so blunt Altan).

    Calling slaves by the name of the neighbouring population was extremely common occurrence in history, no need for “massive enslaving,” just periodical cattle raids and clashes is enough. Don’t be so maximalist in your attitude, even though on steppes Ancient Aryans were militarily superior, Ancient Finn’s lived in forests and bogs, you cant do much with war chariots in such terrain, so it would not be surprising if Finn’s did night time raids against neighbouring Aryans.

  174. @AltanBakshi
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    How the Ancient Aryans looked? Quite a complicated question, for there were various cultures in ancient times, loosely connected with each other, in different eras of history, in different areas of Eurasia which called themselves Aryan.

    I believe that the first culture that called themselves Aryans were people of the Sintashta culture in the Southern Urals, one good proof for this is that the word for slave in the Finno-Ugric languages is derived from the word Arya, and Finnic peoples have retained lots of ancient Indo-European, Germanic, Baltic etc loanwords in more archaic form than those words have survived in their original languages.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja
    They probably were quite fair and European looking though still distinct, but later when they spread to Central Asia and areas of BMAC/Bactria-MArgiana complex, they mixed strongly with locals, and I think that if you would mix a Russian with a Tajik you would get a person who would genetically at least crudely resemble those Aryans of the Central Asia, who later invaded Indian Subcontinent and Iranian plateau. These Aryans who had mixed with the native people of Iranian plateau and Afghanistan, belong to the so called Andronovo culture, though they also had little bit Eastern Asian admixture. Georgians are not much connected with Ancient Aryans and are in my limited knowledge more related to ancient native populations of Middle East, than with the Ancient Aryans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Bashibuzuk

    That’s how the Aryans looked like:

    https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1680084/pub_5e7a6d164432af1a9b943017_5e7a86f87bd8597d62fbc1a5/scale_1200

    Altan is right, they were Corded Ware Culture derived Arkaim Sintashta people admixed with local populations.

    The original Corded Ware Culture people looked like:

    Basically like pure blooded Balto – Slavs.

    And the ancestors of the Western Europeans were the swarthy Iberian Bell Beaker folks;

    Quite normal for a population that was living on both sides of the Gibraltar.

    Of course the BBC and the CWC ended up entirely intermixed by the times of late Unetice Culture and early La Tene / Hallstatt Culture (that is Central European Celts).

    https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/171119/view/reconstructed-face-of-the-lindow-man-bog-body

    But among the Balto-Slav and the Ugric populations the CWC ancestry remained the primary and principal component. That is why the Nordic people are more blond etc.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don't believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead. Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    No greater race of men have ever existed, no finer folk has ever walked on earth. They gave us the Holy Vedas, the Holy Avesta, they gave us men like Zarathustra, Vedic Rishis and Buddha, they tamed the horse and build first chariots and we're progenitors of chivalry and nobility, in a spiritual sense I mean. They truly were the Kinsmen of the Sun. So great were their deeds that they are not anymore material race of men, but a spiritual race.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

  175. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    The people of Canaan were not of "Y haplogroup Aaron" (an idiotic name the Jewish Israeli geneticist came with). The ancient Canaanite were Y haplogroups J2 like the majority of modern Lebanese .

    I agree about the Qahtanite who were more admixed with Afro-Asiatic populations that carried the Y haplogroup E.

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That's where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.

    So once again we can see how dramatical was the difference between Northern Kingdom of Israel and religiously more fanatic kingdom of Judah. Am I right? I very much believe that Christ was descendant of the people of ancient Israel, and not of Judah, after all Galilea is situated in the lands of old Northern Kingdom. Also there are quite condemning passages in New Testament about men of Judah.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+5%3A1-30&version=NIV

    Here’s one example among many.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    That was before any of these kingdoms existed, we are probably talking about populations that infiltrated the Levant from the desert during the Bronze Age collapse. They were (semi?) nomads who colonized a more developed territory when SHTF. Just like the Vedic Aryans did with the Indus river civilization and the Avestan Aryan did BMAC.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

  176. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    Basically, the Jewish priestly class was recruited among the Northern (proto) Arabic Midianite tribes. That’s where the cult of YHWH originated from. Hence the same Y haplotypes shared by both populations.
     
    So once again we can see how dramatical was the difference between Northern Kingdom of Israel and religiously more fanatic kingdom of Judah. Am I right? I very much believe that Christ was descendant of the people of ancient Israel, and not of Judah, after all Galilea is situated in the lands of old Northern Kingdom. Also there are quite condemning passages in New Testament about men of Judah.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+5%3A1-30&version=NIV

    Here's one example among many.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    That was before any of these kingdoms existed, we are probably talking about populations that infiltrated the Levant from the desert during the Bronze Age collapse. They were (semi?) nomads who colonized a more developed territory when SHTF. Just like the Vedic Aryans did with the Indus river civilization and the Avestan Aryan did BMAC.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    It's quite clear that the Swarthy Dasas of Rigveda are ancient inhabitants of Afghanistan or BMAC, there are no ancient Bronze Age concentric fortresses in the Subcontinent, such as described in the Rig Veda, but there are numerous archeological findings of such forts in BMAC area.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Yes your explanation is quite sound, Jews were originally people who came from desert and drove more civilized Canaanites away, but isn't it quite likely that Northern tribes of Israel had more Canaanite blood in them than those of Southern Judah? Judah was closer to the desert and had less interaction with Phoenicians, and were more hostile to foreign cultures.

  177. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    That's how the Aryans looked like:

    https://i.redd.it/l7p1ewsg3e141.png

    https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1680084/pub_5e7a6d164432af1a9b943017_5e7a86f87bd8597d62fbc1a5/scale_1200

    Altan is right, they were Corded Ware Culture derived Arkaim Sintashta people admixed with local populations.

    The original Corded Ware Culture people looked like:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/7c/41/607c41205c1e10c46a2611e3d5e53d47.jpg

    Basically like pure blooded Balto - Slavs.

    And the ancestors of the Western Europeans were the swarthy Iberian Bell Beaker folks;

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/12/03/10/6937800-0-image-a-21_1543833264542.jpg

    Quite normal for a population that was living on both sides of the Gibraltar.

    Of course the BBC and the CWC ended up entirely intermixed by the times of late Unetice Culture and early La Tene / Hallstatt Culture (that is Central European Celts).

    https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/171119/view/reconstructed-face-of-the-lindow-man-bog-body

    But among the Balto-Slav and the Ugric populations the CWC ancestry remained the primary and principal component. That is why the Nordic people are more blond etc.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don’t believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead. Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    No greater race of men have ever existed, no finer folk has ever walked on earth. They gave us the Holy Vedas, the Holy Avesta, they gave us men like Zarathustra, Vedic Rishis and Buddha, they tamed the horse and build first chariots and we’re progenitors of chivalry and nobility, in a spiritual sense I mean. They truly were the Kinsmen of the Sun. So great were their deeds that they are not anymore material race of men, but a spiritual race.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @RSDB

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don’t believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead.
     
    Aryans were the populations derived from the Sintashta Arkaim culture. It was after Unetice, after Bell Beaker, after Corded Ware and Tripolian cultures.

    Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.
     
    Of course, their male ancestors were mainly Bell Beaker. The Bell Beaker were a specific subset of Yamnaya derived population.

    The Bell Beaker folks have nothing to do with the people of Sintashta and Arkaim. Completely and utterly unrelated. Scythians are all derived from a mix of Yamnaya and Corded Ware (mainly Corded Ware, Sarmatians mainly Yamnaya). Bell Beaker are a very specific West European subset of Yamnaya people, they produced Italo - Celts and Germans, but nos Slavs or Finns.

    Basically, East European and West European populations diverged long ago, but they intermixed afterwards in the Unetice Culture.
  178. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    That was before any of these kingdoms existed, we are probably talking about populations that infiltrated the Levant from the desert during the Bronze Age collapse. They were (semi?) nomads who colonized a more developed territory when SHTF. Just like the Vedic Aryans did with the Indus river civilization and the Avestan Aryan did BMAC.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    It’s quite clear that the Swarthy Dasas of Rigveda are ancient inhabitants of Afghanistan or BMAC, there are no ancient Bronze Age concentric fortresses in the Subcontinent, such as described in the Rig Veda, but there are numerous archeological findings of such forts in BMAC area.

  179. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    That was before any of these kingdoms existed, we are probably talking about populations that infiltrated the Levant from the desert during the Bronze Age collapse. They were (semi?) nomads who colonized a more developed territory when SHTF. Just like the Vedic Aryans did with the Indus river civilization and the Avestan Aryan did BMAC.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    Yes your explanation is quite sound, Jews were originally people who came from desert and drove more civilized Canaanites away, but isn’t it quite likely that Northern tribes of Israel had more Canaanite blood in them than those of Southern Judah? Judah was closer to the desert and had less interaction with Phoenicians, and were more hostile to foreign cultures.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  180. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don't believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead. Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    No greater race of men have ever existed, no finer folk has ever walked on earth. They gave us the Holy Vedas, the Holy Avesta, they gave us men like Zarathustra, Vedic Rishis and Buddha, they tamed the horse and build first chariots and we're progenitors of chivalry and nobility, in a spiritual sense I mean. They truly were the Kinsmen of the Sun. So great were their deeds that they are not anymore material race of men, but a spiritual race.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

    I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Ukrainian word oraty
     
    See my comment # 171

    Yes Buddha's clan was of Scythian ancestry.
    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Ukrainians are descended from Scythian
     
    Partially Ukrainians are probably their descendants and Scythians were descendants of people who used Aryan as an ethnic self moniker.

    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.
     
    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
    Still I think that we would be quite shallow men if we would choose our faith primarily because of its geographical origins and not because it deeply resonates with our spirit or intelligence.

    Like I mentioned before, Aryans are now a spiritual race, their ranks are open to anyone who shows innate nobility of character, just as Christ's Israel is not only for Jews, though only faith alone is not enough for person to achieve the Aryan state, only those with a very high level of spiritual realization are Aryans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @RSDB
    @AP


    Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia
     
    If you go with Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions you have something that has developed in an Aryan milieu, if you go by language.

    I've heard of a few German monks who went there, but I doubt very much that this was one of their main motivating factors.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  181. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @RSDB

    Ukrainian word oraty

    See my comment # 171

    Yes Buddha’s clan was of Scythian ancestry.

  182. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @RSDB

    Ukrainians are descended from Scythian

    Partially Ukrainians are probably their descendants and Scythians were descendants of people who used Aryan as an ethnic self moniker.

    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
    Still I think that we would be quite shallow men if we would choose our faith primarily because of its geographical origins and not because it deeply resonates with our spirit or intelligence.

    Like I mentioned before, Aryans are now a spiritual race, their ranks are open to anyone who shows innate nobility of character, just as Christ’s Israel is not only for Jews, though only faith alone is not enough for person to achieve the Aryan state, only those with a very high level of spiritual realization are Aryans.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.
     
    Of course, most Western European people have nothing to do with Vedic or Avestan Aryans. Their male ancestors are Bell Beaker, whose most archaic artefacts are found in Nirthern Morocco and Atlantic Portugal. Basically, some Yamnaya descended folks ended up passing through Caucasus, Middle East and arrived in the Maghreb and then invaded the Iberian peninsula and the rest Western Europe.

    Since the mid-3rd Millennium BC the Bell Beaker phenomenon was spanning the vast area from Northwest Africa to the hearth of Carpathian Basin. One of the earliest Beaker styles is the “Maritime tradition” that probably originated from the Early Copper Age “Copos” in the area of the mouth of the River Tajo in Portugal. The pedigree of the specific Bell Beaker stamped decoration may be found in the northwestern Morocco Late Neolithic cemeteries of Skirat and El Kiffen.
     
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330729106_Turek_J_2012_Origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker_phenomenon_-_the_Moroccan_connection_In_Harry_Fokkens_-_Franco_Nicolis_Bell_beakers_in_Transition_Sidestone_Press_Leiden_pp_155-167_ISBN_9789088900846

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
     
    Christianity is a MENA Abrahamic Helenistic syncretic cult. It colonized Europe, but European peoples had other spiritual traditions before, and probably will have other spiritual traditions after. Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed.

    Replies: @AP

  183. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don't believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead. Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    No greater race of men have ever existed, no finer folk has ever walked on earth. They gave us the Holy Vedas, the Holy Avesta, they gave us men like Zarathustra, Vedic Rishis and Buddha, they tamed the horse and build first chariots and we're progenitors of chivalry and nobility, in a spiritual sense I mean. They truly were the Kinsmen of the Sun. So great were their deeds that they are not anymore material race of men, but a spiritual race.

    Replies: @AP, @Bashibuzuk

    Corded Ware and Yamnaya people were Indo-Europeans, but I don’t believe that they were Aryans, or that they called themselves by that name, but Sintashta and Andronovo have clearly lots of common culturally with people described in Holy Vedas and Avesta, their forts, chariots, animal husbandry and most importantly how they buried their dead.

    Aryans were the populations derived from the Sintashta Arkaim culture. It was after Unetice, after Bell Beaker, after Corded Ware and Tripolian cultures.

    Most ancestors of Italians, Anglos, French and Germans never called themselves by the name of the Arya, or so I do believe.

    Of course, their male ancestors were mainly Bell Beaker. The Bell Beaker were a specific subset of Yamnaya derived population.

    The Bell Beaker folks have nothing to do with the people of Sintashta and Arkaim. Completely and utterly unrelated. Scythians are all derived from a mix of Yamnaya and Corded Ware (mainly Corded Ware, Sarmatians mainly Yamnaya). Bell Beaker are a very specific West European subset of Yamnaya people, they produced Italo – Celts and Germans, but nos Slavs or Finns.

    Basically, East European and West European populations diverged long ago, but they intermixed afterwards in the Unetice Culture.

  184. @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Ukrainians are descended from Scythian
     
    Partially Ukrainians are probably their descendants and Scythians were descendants of people who used Aryan as an ethnic self moniker.

    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.
     
    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
    Still I think that we would be quite shallow men if we would choose our faith primarily because of its geographical origins and not because it deeply resonates with our spirit or intelligence.

    Like I mentioned before, Aryans are now a spiritual race, their ranks are open to anyone who shows innate nobility of character, just as Christ's Israel is not only for Jews, though only faith alone is not enough for person to achieve the Aryan state, only those with a very high level of spiritual realization are Aryans.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.

    Of course, most Western European people have nothing to do with Vedic or Avestan Aryans. Their male ancestors are Bell Beaker, whose most archaic artefacts are found in Nirthern Morocco and Atlantic Portugal. Basically, some Yamnaya descended folks ended up passing through Caucasus, Middle East and arrived in the Maghreb and then invaded the Iberian peninsula and the rest Western Europe.

    Since the mid-3rd Millennium BC the Bell Beaker phenomenon was spanning the vast area from Northwest Africa to the hearth of Carpathian Basin. One of the earliest Beaker styles is the “Maritime tradition” that probably originated from the Early Copper Age “Copos” in the area of the mouth of the River Tajo in Portugal. The pedigree of the specific Bell Beaker stamped decoration may be found in the northwestern Morocco Late Neolithic cemeteries of Skirat and El Kiffen.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330729106_Turek_J_2012_Origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker_phenomenon_-_the_Moroccan_connection_In_Harry_Fokkens_-_Franco_Nicolis_Bell_beakers_in_Transition_Sidestone_Press_Leiden_pp_155-167_ISBN_9789088900846

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.

    Christianity is a MENA Abrahamic Helenistic syncretic cult. It colonized Europe, but European peoples had other spiritual traditions before, and probably will have other spiritual traditions after. Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed
     
    The creed will not end, but those who abandon it will, and will be replaced by those who didn’t abandon it.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  185. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Anyway Aryan does not equal Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European.
     
    Of course, most Western European people have nothing to do with Vedic or Avestan Aryans. Their male ancestors are Bell Beaker, whose most archaic artefacts are found in Nirthern Morocco and Atlantic Portugal. Basically, some Yamnaya descended folks ended up passing through Caucasus, Middle East and arrived in the Maghreb and then invaded the Iberian peninsula and the rest Western Europe.

    Since the mid-3rd Millennium BC the Bell Beaker phenomenon was spanning the vast area from Northwest Africa to the hearth of Carpathian Basin. One of the earliest Beaker styles is the “Maritime tradition” that probably originated from the Early Copper Age “Copos” in the area of the mouth of the River Tajo in Portugal. The pedigree of the specific Bell Beaker stamped decoration may be found in the northwestern Morocco Late Neolithic cemeteries of Skirat and El Kiffen.
     
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330729106_Turek_J_2012_Origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker_phenomenon_-_the_Moroccan_connection_In_Harry_Fokkens_-_Franco_Nicolis_Bell_beakers_in_Transition_Sidestone_Press_Leiden_pp_155-167_ISBN_9789088900846

    I have never disputed the European character of Christianity.
     
    Christianity is a MENA Abrahamic Helenistic syncretic cult. It colonized Europe, but European peoples had other spiritual traditions before, and probably will have other spiritual traditions after. Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed.

    Replies: @AP

    Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed

    The creed will not end, but those who abandon it will, and will be replaced by those who didn’t abandon it.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    and will be replaced by those who
     
    ... submit to Allah

    Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, and 44 million in 2010; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010.
     
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/94/a6/4f/94a64f22613b530ed9bc97e9e56c2d85.gif

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    It's impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path...

    Replies: @AP

  186. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Despite whatever Christians believe, the world will not end with their creed
     
    The creed will not end, but those who abandon it will, and will be replaced by those who didn’t abandon it.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah

    Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, and 44 million in 2010; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010.


    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah
     
    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam's birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.
     
    Pagan Europe was not a highly developed and populated civilization such as India. Paganism of tribes have stood no chance. They have always been replaced by either Islam or Christianity when encountered by either of these.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…
     
    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans. Of course a European can sincerely convert to it (non-Europeans convert to Christianity all the time) but your specific implication that one can be more true to oneself as a descendent of Scythians/Slavs/Sarmatians/Aryans by leaving a religion started by a Jew and becoming a Buddhist is very odd, given that Christianity has been focused on Europe, cultivated and developed in Europe for most of its existence, while Buddhism has been mixed up with Asia for thousands of years.

    I found this rant to be largely true (albeit it takes a Western Christian POV), hopefully you are not offended, as it is most critical of some Westerners' (such as Thulean Friend) turn to Hinduism and doesn't explicitly mention Buddhism:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-last-debate/#comment-4242365



    And here we go again, back to the real problem of why it is that twits from Schopenhauer, to Guenon to you, insist that plain old Western Christianity is too this, and too that. It’s too archaic I tell you. No, wait, it’s too modernist. It’s too antisemitic and the real driver of the Holocaust. Or else, no, it’s a vehicle of Judaic supremacy. Can’t they make up their minds? No, the real problem here is what Scruton called oikophobia. This notion that the truth must be found off in the East somewhere, be it in some ashram in Calcutta or some monastery on Mt. Athos. Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go, and from then on they unapologetically made that faith their very own, to the extent that Christianity (or at least Roman Catholicism in your case) and the West became intrinsically linked for better and worse, as we continue to see whenever someone sets out to trash the West.

    That’s why Schopenhauer kept yammering about that all that compassion he claimed could be found in the Vedas, when in fact, when it comes to compassion, the Sermon on the Mount has a good bit more of it than, say, the Bhagavad Gita (a text which emphasizes detachment above all else and belittles him who would wallow in compassion). That’s why Nietzsche used the PR trick of putting his innovations into the mouth of an Eastern sage like Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and why Guenon and his followers sought refuge from cold Western rationalism in Sufi mysticism (at about the same time that oikophobes like Pickthall were assuring us the Quran was superior to the Bible precisely because it contained no miracles, and tendentiously translated the former to impose his take onto it). That’s why trippy hippies from Madame Blavatsky to the Beatles sought refuge in theosophy and yoga and yogis. Really, it has a good deal to do with why Boas and his disciple Margaret Mead sought to enlighten us to the sexual mores of Polynesian societies. Too many Western/Christian hangups about sex. Ah, those poor benighted Christians/Westerners — they can’t seem to get anything right, to the extent that we now have to find the ultimate source of meaning from those who defecate in the streets and burn widows.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk

  187. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    and will be replaced by those who
     
    ... submit to Allah

    Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, and 44 million in 2010; the Muslim share of the population increased from 4.1% in 1990 to 6% in 2010.
     
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/94/a6/4f/94a64f22613b530ed9bc97e9e56c2d85.gif

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    It's impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path...

    Replies: @AP

    and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah

    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.

    Pagan Europe was not a highly developed and populated civilization such as India. Paganism of tribes have stood no chance. They have always been replaced by either Islam or Christianity when encountered by either of these.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…

    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans. Of course a European can sincerely convert to it (non-Europeans convert to Christianity all the time) but your specific implication that one can be more true to oneself as a descendent of Scythians/Slavs/Sarmatians/Aryans by leaving a religion started by a Jew and becoming a Buddhist is very odd, given that Christianity has been focused on Europe, cultivated and developed in Europe for most of its existence, while Buddhism has been mixed up with Asia for thousands of years.

    I found this rant to be largely true (albeit it takes a Western Christian POV), hopefully you are not offended, as it is most critical of some Westerners’ (such as Thulean Friend) turn to Hinduism and doesn’t explicitly mention Buddhism:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-last-debate/#comment-4242365

    [MORE]

    And here we go again, back to the real problem of why it is that twits from Schopenhauer, to Guenon to you, insist that plain old Western Christianity is too this, and too that. It’s too archaic I tell you. No, wait, it’s too modernist. It’s too antisemitic and the real driver of the Holocaust. Or else, no, it’s a vehicle of Judaic supremacy. Can’t they make up their minds? No, the real problem here is what Scruton called oikophobia. This notion that the truth must be found off in the East somewhere, be it in some ashram in Calcutta or some monastery on Mt. Athos. Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go, and from then on they unapologetically made that faith their very own, to the extent that Christianity (or at least Roman Catholicism in your case) and the West became intrinsically linked for better and worse, as we continue to see whenever someone sets out to trash the West.

    That’s why Schopenhauer kept yammering about that all that compassion he claimed could be found in the Vedas, when in fact, when it comes to compassion, the Sermon on the Mount has a good bit more of it than, say, the Bhagavad Gita (a text which emphasizes detachment above all else and belittles him who would wallow in compassion). That’s why Nietzsche used the PR trick of putting his innovations into the mouth of an Eastern sage like Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and why Guenon and his followers sought refuge from cold Western rationalism in Sufi mysticism (at about the same time that oikophobes like Pickthall were assuring us the Quran was superior to the Bible precisely because it contained no miracles, and tendentiously translated the former to impose his take onto it). That’s why trippy hippies from Madame Blavatsky to the Beatles sought refuge in theosophy and yoga and yogis. Really, it has a good deal to do with why Boas and his disciple Margaret Mead sought to enlighten us to the sexual mores of Polynesian societies. Too many Western/Christian hangups about sex. Ah, those poor benighted Christians/Westerners — they can’t seem to get anything right, to the extent that we now have to find the ultimate source of meaning from those who defecate in the streets and burn widows.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Again you guys are engaging in this utterly pointless debate.


    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).
     
    Maybe Christianity is still strong in USA, but in the Western Europe it's already less visible than Islam, in practice it's a marginal religion mainly followed by old and dying people, vast majority of Western Europeans don't feel any connection with it anymore, in my knowledge only in Italy and Austria it still has some energy left, and for how long? Don't get me wrong, I'm not celebrating the disappearance of Christianity, but situation is what it is.

    Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go
     
    No one says that their decision is final for all their descendents? Or why it should be so? If they would, because of their own free volition, go to Jerusalem, why it's wrong for other Western Europeans to go somewhere else by their own free will?

    Thulean Friend is a follower of Hindu traditions, really? Hey TF can you tell what school or tradition you are following? Advainta, or maybe you are a Vaishnavite?


    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans.
     
    Our spiritual leader was openly a friend to such people as "far right leader" Jörg Haider or former member of SS like Heinrich Harrier and he openly said that Germany is a German country and that Europe belongs to Europeans.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/tibets-spiritual-leader-dalai-lama-places-a-sache-arround-the-neck-of-picture-id57604691?s=612x612

    https://imgl.krone.at/scaled/1066647/v72006e/schema_org_16_9.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/0e/96/4f0e96f9267a833182f6f70b12e79ee3.jpg

    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/d9af4588ba1d493ba0fb27757e6babac_18.jpeg?resize=770%2C513

    (My criticism is not targeted against Christianity, only against Catholic Church for there is a true European church, the One Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church)

    Replies: @AP

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition. Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East. But the discussion of any belief system should not be about it being is of East or West, not about cultural sude of the traditions, not about races and colours of skin or IQ. This is all irrelevant.

    It is about the right understanding of what we humans are, and about what this world of ours is. It is about the right attitude to develop facing this world. And about the right practice to achieve. It is about the right goal for this practice.

    All human beings are imperfect, they are born independently of their own will, they live conditioned lives full of stress, they age and they die. This is where the reflection should start: what are we as human beings to do of this stressful, conditioned and impermanent existence. And once one started this reflection, then one should fearlessly pursue it to the very end without clinging to race, caste, gender, traditions of one's ancestors and so on and so forth.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    When I go to Moscow, I always visit the Church where I was baptized, I spend time there and donate what I can afford for its restauration and maintenance. I wish it to stand strong and beautiful for hundreds of years. When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto - Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    But my preferences and emotions regarding these existing and lost belief systems are irrelevant. What is relevant, is what brings me closer to what I feel as Real and True.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

  188. @AaronB
    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people - but didn't the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let's be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today's Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    European nations are all wonderful and great - but hasn't the old civilization exhausted itself?

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian - might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn't this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke's Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason - innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris - mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    In Israel something like this is already taking place. There is massive mixing between the various Jewish populations, and the main divide between European Jews and Oriental Jews is slowly eroding. What is emerging is a new Israeli race - and I like what I see.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Kent Nationalist, @utu, @Radicalcenter, @AltanBakshi, @EldnahYm

    Am I the only person who finds the prospect of a new race emerging in Europe exciting?

    The Romans were a great people – but didn’t the Germanic admixture plus the Near Eastern mixture make the northern Italians something new and exciting? Let’s be honest, the Romans could never have produced the art of the Rennaissance. Like today’s Chinese, they were great engineers and builders of public works, not artists or thinkers.

    I’m not sure how significant the Germanic admixture was in Italy. My understanding is that the fall of the Roman Empire led to a decline in “exotic” ancestry there, probably because cities were demographic sinks.

    I would modify your statement about the Romans by saying say they were excellent at systematizing(which poor thinkers will not do well). But they were not very inventive.

    European nations are all wonderful and great – but hasn’t the old civilization exhausted itself?

    It depends what you mean. Right now western countries are in a state of demographic and cultural decline. You could call that civilizational exhaustion. On the other hand, if you mean to ask have the ideas of European civilization exhausted themselves, I would say no. For example, evolutionary theory has yet to have its day in the sun in terms of its application to humanity. Ideas like eugenics went out of fashion after WW2, and even formulating certain hypotheses about for example group differences is controversial. The idea of natural selection is under 200 years old, the evolutionary synthesis is less than 100 years old, and high throughput sequencing is a little over 20 years old. The field is really only just getting started.

    I don’t see much evidence that greater race mixing is solving 21st century man’s problems. One could for example posit that the Classical tradition in music had exhausted itself by the second half of the 20th century. Whether one accepts that idea or not, what I don’t see is anything offered by anyone else that even approximates the greatness of western classical music. So even if we accept the premise that western civilization has exhausted itself, it does not follow that mixing with people from elsewhere will improve anything. My view is that much of the cultural agglomeration that is occurring is destroying most of what is interesting about people around the world and that it is contributing to greater atomization, consumerism, etc.

    Most of what I see in countries outside of the west is just copying. Everyone has the same architecture, same music, same declining fertility as the economy grows, etc. China’s modernization project for example is essentially just taking advantage of the larger scale of China’s population to beat the West at its own game. So they can construct ugly buildings more quickly than Western countries can.

    Cultures don’t necessarily need large scale immigration of newcomers to change drastically. Isolation is a powerful driver of cultural development. Note that most(if not all) of what we consider special about ancient Greece came after the Greek Dark Ages. Prior to the Greek Dark Ages you had a culture more uniform and interconnected with the near East. This was followed by a period with more varied cultural forms and more isolation from the outside world. This would be followed by new cultural syntheses, different from the old Mycenaean civilization.

    I can understand worries about the great White race being simply exterminated or replaced, but a new race emerging in Europe that is 70% White and 30% North African, Arab, Black, Asian – might this not lead to something exciting and new?

    I would make the opposite argument. Just for a handful of examples, Madagascar, the Canary Islands, Central Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, South Africa(cape Coloureds), all have various “interesting” mixtures. But I wouldn’t these peoples have had an inordinately high amount of contributions. I think the Nordic phenotype is more worthy of preservation.

    Why is this to be so feared? Moreover, isn’t this the usual pattern for Europe? Breakdown followed by reconstitution along new-but-different lines with a big mixture of new races?

    If you go back far enough, the people in Europe will look very different from the people there today. Does it follow from this observation that some particular future genetic change is necessary or good? Nope.

    Of course, for a true new race to emerge in Europe at some point immigration would have to stop, and a great process of assimilation take place.

    The Enlightenment elite that rules the West aims for the creation of a uniform type of man that lives his life according to reason. He has no innate characteristics and no inherited qualities. He is the epitome of John Locke’s Blank Slate and can be shaped entirely by reason.

    This is a necessary corollary to the Enlightenment belief that mankind can be infinitely shaped by reason – innate characteristics, inherited dispositions, are an intolerable restrictions on this ambitious project.

    For mankind to take charge of his destiny, innate characteristics cannot exist. He must be a blank slate up in which reason can write.

    But such an ambition is pure hubris – mankind cannot take charge of his destiny through reason and is limited by inherited characteristics. This project is bound to fail.

    Since the creation of a uniform man with no inherited disposition, the central project of the Western elites, is bound to fail, what will happen instead is the emergence of a new race with a new particular character.

    I don’t see any need for a new particular character in Western man. The Romantic movement in Europe was about as radical an attack on Enlightenment values as can be articulated. Its ideas are out of fashion, but they do not have to remain so. Also John Locke’s idea of the blank slate is contradicted by evolutionary theory. The West has more than enough ammunition with which to destroy these ideas without having to look for outside input.

  189. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah
     
    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam's birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.
     
    Pagan Europe was not a highly developed and populated civilization such as India. Paganism of tribes have stood no chance. They have always been replaced by either Islam or Christianity when encountered by either of these.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…
     
    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans. Of course a European can sincerely convert to it (non-Europeans convert to Christianity all the time) but your specific implication that one can be more true to oneself as a descendent of Scythians/Slavs/Sarmatians/Aryans by leaving a religion started by a Jew and becoming a Buddhist is very odd, given that Christianity has been focused on Europe, cultivated and developed in Europe for most of its existence, while Buddhism has been mixed up with Asia for thousands of years.

    I found this rant to be largely true (albeit it takes a Western Christian POV), hopefully you are not offended, as it is most critical of some Westerners' (such as Thulean Friend) turn to Hinduism and doesn't explicitly mention Buddhism:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-last-debate/#comment-4242365



    And here we go again, back to the real problem of why it is that twits from Schopenhauer, to Guenon to you, insist that plain old Western Christianity is too this, and too that. It’s too archaic I tell you. No, wait, it’s too modernist. It’s too antisemitic and the real driver of the Holocaust. Or else, no, it’s a vehicle of Judaic supremacy. Can’t they make up their minds? No, the real problem here is what Scruton called oikophobia. This notion that the truth must be found off in the East somewhere, be it in some ashram in Calcutta or some monastery on Mt. Athos. Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go, and from then on they unapologetically made that faith their very own, to the extent that Christianity (or at least Roman Catholicism in your case) and the West became intrinsically linked for better and worse, as we continue to see whenever someone sets out to trash the West.

    That’s why Schopenhauer kept yammering about that all that compassion he claimed could be found in the Vedas, when in fact, when it comes to compassion, the Sermon on the Mount has a good bit more of it than, say, the Bhagavad Gita (a text which emphasizes detachment above all else and belittles him who would wallow in compassion). That’s why Nietzsche used the PR trick of putting his innovations into the mouth of an Eastern sage like Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and why Guenon and his followers sought refuge from cold Western rationalism in Sufi mysticism (at about the same time that oikophobes like Pickthall were assuring us the Quran was superior to the Bible precisely because it contained no miracles, and tendentiously translated the former to impose his take onto it). That’s why trippy hippies from Madame Blavatsky to the Beatles sought refuge in theosophy and yoga and yogis. Really, it has a good deal to do with why Boas and his disciple Margaret Mead sought to enlighten us to the sexual mores of Polynesian societies. Too many Western/Christian hangups about sex. Ah, those poor benighted Christians/Westerners — they can’t seem to get anything right, to the extent that we now have to find the ultimate source of meaning from those who defecate in the streets and burn widows.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk

    Again you guys are engaging in this utterly pointless debate.

    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    Maybe Christianity is still strong in USA, but in the Western Europe it’s already less visible than Islam, in practice it’s a marginal religion mainly followed by old and dying people, vast majority of Western Europeans don’t feel any connection with it anymore, in my knowledge only in Italy and Austria it still has some energy left, and for how long? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not celebrating the disappearance of Christianity, but situation is what it is.

    Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go

    No one says that their decision is final for all their descendents? Or why it should be so? If they would, because of their own free volition, go to Jerusalem, why it’s wrong for other Western Europeans to go somewhere else by their own free will?

    Thulean Friend is a follower of Hindu traditions, really? Hey TF can you tell what school or tradition you are following? Advainta, or maybe you are a Vaishnavite?

    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans.

    Our spiritual leader was openly a friend to such people as “far right leader” Jörg Haider or former member of SS like Heinrich Harrier and he openly said that Germany is a German country and that Europe belongs to Europeans.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/tibets-spiritual-leader-dalai-lama-places-a-sache-arround-the-neck-of-picture-id57604691?s=612×612

    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    [MORE]

    https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/d9af4588ba1d493ba0fb27757e6babac_18.jpeg?resize=770%2C513

    (My criticism is not targeted against Christianity, only against Catholic Church for there is a true European church, the One Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church)

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?
     
    This is the difference between a foreign ally and friend, versus a native traitor. The foreigner is a better person, but still an alien.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  190. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    and will be replaced by those who

    … submit to Allah
     
    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam's birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).

    The ultimate result of a series of spiritual substitions.

    We should have stayed with the Seer of Light and the Thunder Cross.
     
    Pagan Europe was not a highly developed and populated civilization such as India. Paganism of tribes have stood no chance. They have always been replaced by either Islam or Christianity when encountered by either of these.

    It’s impossible to go back in time, but it is still possible to join the Middle Path…
     
    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans. Of course a European can sincerely convert to it (non-Europeans convert to Christianity all the time) but your specific implication that one can be more true to oneself as a descendent of Scythians/Slavs/Sarmatians/Aryans by leaving a religion started by a Jew and becoming a Buddhist is very odd, given that Christianity has been focused on Europe, cultivated and developed in Europe for most of its existence, while Buddhism has been mixed up with Asia for thousands of years.

    I found this rant to be largely true (albeit it takes a Western Christian POV), hopefully you are not offended, as it is most critical of some Westerners' (such as Thulean Friend) turn to Hinduism and doesn't explicitly mention Buddhism:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-last-debate/#comment-4242365



    And here we go again, back to the real problem of why it is that twits from Schopenhauer, to Guenon to you, insist that plain old Western Christianity is too this, and too that. It’s too archaic I tell you. No, wait, it’s too modernist. It’s too antisemitic and the real driver of the Holocaust. Or else, no, it’s a vehicle of Judaic supremacy. Can’t they make up their minds? No, the real problem here is what Scruton called oikophobia. This notion that the truth must be found off in the East somewhere, be it in some ashram in Calcutta or some monastery on Mt. Athos. Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go, and from then on they unapologetically made that faith their very own, to the extent that Christianity (or at least Roman Catholicism in your case) and the West became intrinsically linked for better and worse, as we continue to see whenever someone sets out to trash the West.

    That’s why Schopenhauer kept yammering about that all that compassion he claimed could be found in the Vedas, when in fact, when it comes to compassion, the Sermon on the Mount has a good bit more of it than, say, the Bhagavad Gita (a text which emphasizes detachment above all else and belittles him who would wallow in compassion). That’s why Nietzsche used the PR trick of putting his innovations into the mouth of an Eastern sage like Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and why Guenon and his followers sought refuge from cold Western rationalism in Sufi mysticism (at about the same time that oikophobes like Pickthall were assuring us the Quran was superior to the Bible precisely because it contained no miracles, and tendentiously translated the former to impose his take onto it). That’s why trippy hippies from Madame Blavatsky to the Beatles sought refuge in theosophy and yoga and yogis. Really, it has a good deal to do with why Boas and his disciple Margaret Mead sought to enlighten us to the sexual mores of Polynesian societies. Too many Western/Christian hangups about sex. Ah, those poor benighted Christians/Westerners — they can’t seem to get anything right, to the extent that we now have to find the ultimate source of meaning from those who defecate in the streets and burn widows.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk

    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition. Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East. But the discussion of any belief system should not be about it being is of East or West, not about cultural sude of the traditions, not about races and colours of skin or IQ. This is all irrelevant.

    It is about the right understanding of what we humans are, and about what this world of ours is. It is about the right attitude to develop facing this world. And about the right practice to achieve. It is about the right goal for this practice.

    [MORE]

    All human beings are imperfect, they are born independently of their own will, they live conditioned lives full of stress, they age and they die. This is where the reflection should start: what are we as human beings to do of this stressful, conditioned and impermanent existence. And once one started this reflection, then one should fearlessly pursue it to the very end without clinging to race, caste, gender, traditions of one’s ancestors and so on and so forth.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    When I go to Moscow, I always visit the Church where I was baptized, I spend time there and donate what I can afford for its restauration and maintenance. I wish it to stand strong and beautiful for hundreds of years. When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    But my preferences and emotions regarding these existing and lost belief systems are irrelevant. What is relevant, is what brings me closer to what I feel as Real and True.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Bashibuzuk

    Sorry for all the typos. I type on my smartphone and don't wear my glasses right now.

    🙂

    , @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition.
     
    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God's Son to be born at that place and that time.

    Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East.
     
    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity "grew up" together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.
     
    Thank you. I agree.

    When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.
     
    I'm sure it did. But given the performance of its brother-faith in India, we are probably better off for having upgraded to the Christian faith and grown with it, rather than having remained pagans.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  191. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition. Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East. But the discussion of any belief system should not be about it being is of East or West, not about cultural sude of the traditions, not about races and colours of skin or IQ. This is all irrelevant.

    It is about the right understanding of what we humans are, and about what this world of ours is. It is about the right attitude to develop facing this world. And about the right practice to achieve. It is about the right goal for this practice.

    All human beings are imperfect, they are born independently of their own will, they live conditioned lives full of stress, they age and they die. This is where the reflection should start: what are we as human beings to do of this stressful, conditioned and impermanent existence. And once one started this reflection, then one should fearlessly pursue it to the very end without clinging to race, caste, gender, traditions of one's ancestors and so on and so forth.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    When I go to Moscow, I always visit the Church where I was baptized, I spend time there and donate what I can afford for its restauration and maintenance. I wish it to stand strong and beautiful for hundreds of years. When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto - Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    But my preferences and emotions regarding these existing and lost belief systems are irrelevant. What is relevant, is what brings me closer to what I feel as Real and True.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

    Sorry for all the typos. I type on my smartphone and don’t wear my glasses right now.

    🙂

  192. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Again you guys are engaging in this utterly pointless debate.


    Globally, Islam is growing faster than Christianity but Christianity is also growing. Islam’s birth rate is declining. If you speak of replacement of godless childless Europeans, it will eventually be of both Europeans and Arabs by Christian sub-Saharans (there are more Christians than Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa).
     
    Maybe Christianity is still strong in USA, but in the Western Europe it's already less visible than Islam, in practice it's a marginal religion mainly followed by old and dying people, vast majority of Western Europeans don't feel any connection with it anymore, in my knowledge only in Italy and Austria it still has some energy left, and for how long? Don't get me wrong, I'm not celebrating the disappearance of Christianity, but situation is what it is.

    Whereas, it’s the Western Christians who, after they themselves embraced a faith out from way-off Jerusalem and Athens, decided that henceforth, that was as far East as they would need to go
     
    No one says that their decision is final for all their descendents? Or why it should be so? If they would, because of their own free volition, go to Jerusalem, why it's wrong for other Western Europeans to go somewhere else by their own free will?

    Thulean Friend is a follower of Hindu traditions, really? Hey TF can you tell what school or tradition you are following? Advainta, or maybe you are a Vaishnavite?


    A very foreign faith, alien to Europeans.
     
    Our spiritual leader was openly a friend to such people as "far right leader" Jörg Haider or former member of SS like Heinrich Harrier and he openly said that Germany is a German country and that Europe belongs to Europeans.

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/tibets-spiritual-leader-dalai-lama-places-a-sache-arround-the-neck-of-picture-id57604691?s=612x612

    https://imgl.krone.at/scaled/1066647/v72006e/schema_org_16_9.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/0e/96/4f0e96f9267a833182f6f70b12e79ee3.jpg

    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/d9af4588ba1d493ba0fb27757e6babac_18.jpeg?resize=770%2C513

    (My criticism is not targeted against Christianity, only against Catholic Church for there is a true European church, the One Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church)

    Replies: @AP

    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?

    This is the difference between a foreign ally and friend, versus a native traitor. The foreigner is a better person, but still an alien.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition ? They betrayed their people and often contributed to a foreign conquest. The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting belief systems with a complex mythological and philosophical content. It was killed after thousands of years of existence and hundreds of years of resistance to the overtake by an alien Eastern religion. It was killed in part because the elites found it profitable to betray and defect.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Better to live with a foreign friend than with a traitor brother.

    Something like an African Pope in the near future is just a matter of time...

  193. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?
     
    This is the difference between a foreign ally and friend, versus a native traitor. The foreigner is a better person, but still an alien.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition ? They betrayed their people and often contributed to a foreign conquest. The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting belief systems with a complex mythological and philosophical content. It was killed after thousands of years of existence and hundreds of years of resistance to the overtake by an alien Eastern religion. It was killed in part because the elites found it profitable to betray and defect.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition
     
    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting
     
    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin

  194. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    I was once in touch with the Ukrainian ridnovira founder Sylenko. He worshiped the sun god Dazhboh and claimed Aryan was linked to the Ukrainian word oraty, that Ukrainians are descended from Scythian, who were the original Aryans and whose homeland was in Ukraine where horseback riding and/or chariots were invented, not Asia. He stated that Buddha was a Scythian and thus “our people.” He complained that Ukrainians were worshipping a Jewish God and listed the ways that Orthodox and Catholic figures betrayed Ukraine to Russians, Poles, etc.

    The guy lived in India for some time and compiled a Ukrainian-Sanskrit dictionary. My impression at the time was that the whole project and attempt to resurrect Slavic paganism was fake and nationalism to the point of absurdity, but the guy seemed earnest and well-meaning, and the Sanskrit dictionary was fascinating, at least.

    If I were to go the route of abandoning Christianity for the sake of following an Indo-European faith I would choose Zoroastrianism or perhaps Buddhism, which have continuous traditions, rather than an invented 20th century neo-paganism. But Christianity is deeply European also, and Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia, it can’t be considered more Indo-European that Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @RSDB

    Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia

    If you go with Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions you have something that has developed in an Aryan milieu, if you go by language.

    I’ve heard of a few German monks who went there, but I doubt very much that this was one of their main motivating factors.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @RSDB

    In fact Buddhism adapted everywhere to influence and transform in depth the local culture. Buddhism could relatively easily include Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary into its pantheon of Bodhisattvas. Some say that the female representation of Avalokita Bodhisattva in China was directly impacted by the Nestorian Christian tradition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingjiao_Documents

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @AltanBakshi
    @RSDB

    Aryan was originally an ethnic self moniker for the horse riding Indo-European or Indo-Iranian people of Central Asian steppes, about 4000 years ago, they were distinct from the ancestors of Greek, Spanish, Anglos, Germans etc. After they invaded and conquered the Iranian plateau and Indo-Gangetic plain, the Aryan got a new meaning about 3000 years ago, a spiritual meaning.

    Aryan as used Nazis is a false appropriation of the term, without its traditional spiritual connotations. There are no pure Ancient Aryans left, but people of Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Greater Iran and Northern India are partially their offspring.

  195. Local spiritual tradition in modern day Ukraine had some 10 000 years history.

    http://ua.stonegrave.org/index

    The earliest Y haplogroup R1a found in Ukraine is directly from a late Tripolian burial. It’s the same haplogroup that is found in the Scythian populations and later in Turkic populations accross Eurasia.

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/fully-steppe-like-proto-corded-ware-late-trypillians/

    Tripolians built impressive settlements in the late neolithic and early chalcolithic.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0222243#sec029

    https://nplus1.ru/news/2019/09/26/public-buildings/amp

    And they often used Swastika as their symbol.

    You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?

    If you do, then you have an incurable inferiority complex…

    🙂

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?
     
    God's Son wasn't born among the "Trypillians." Although I agree that they made beautiful pottery. It is too bad that before the upgrade Jesuits did not exist to come and record their stories for posterity.

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?
     
    It was, compared to that given by the Greeks. The theology of the pagan Slavs wasn't written down, but it was likely similar to that of illiterate Aryan folk, perhaps the Kalashi people are a model. Now compare that to the works of Christian thinkers of those times. Compare the decorated poles with the beautiful and complex Orthodox Churches with their iconography, that replaced the etched poles within mere decades. Compare the primitive earthen dwellings with the Christian cities. Etc.

    You will claim that the Slavic pagans needed to be given a chance. Ok - as I wrote, this would have meant a few more centuries of dark barbarism* at least, before a higher totally native civilization rose up. And what would it have looked like? Something like India, with colder climate? Are Indian architecture, cities etc. as nice as those of European Christendom? Christianity's approach toward nature meant an explosion of technological progress (this has already been discussed). So forget about Christian Europe's technological marvels and its effect on standard of living. Christ-less Slavic lands would have perhaps been like southern India c. 600 in the year 2000, only with harsher weather. And about the same in another thousand years after that. And so on. For Indian civilization is ancient and despite the thousands of years head start it was rather stable, or stagnant.

    And this assumes that somehow Islam would not have converted the Slavs, in the absence of Christianity. Because the faith of pagan tribes inevitably falls to that of Christianity or its worse Islamic cousin. The pagans wanted something better. After some initial resistance their children did not want to go back to their primitive tribal lives. I don't think anyone of us really would.

    *And let's not romanticize this. Tribal people do lead rather short and brutal lives of stupid revenge warfare, vendettas, human sacrifice, etc. My pre-Christian Rus ancestors would spend their time pillaging the Eastern Slav settlements and selling some of the victims as slaves to the Arabs and Persians. Just another day at the office. Despite internecine wars of the Rus princes, Christian Rus of the 11th century was more humane and pleasant than were those lands in the 9th century.

    https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths

    Graves in ancient Ukraine (Volos'ke, (Ukraine), 'Epipalaeolithic'; ca. 7500 BCE) showed 22% of people died by violence. In Northern India in 850 BC (when the area was settled by Aryans) it was 30%.



    The levels of violence in prehistoric times (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic evidence) was much higher than in modern state societies and in the world today…

    Charts show that death rates from violence in archeological sites varied widely by tribe, from 60% among 14th century Crow Indians in South Dakota to less than 5% among pre-contact natives in California and ancient tribals in Algeria. But the average was around 22% of people dying through violence.

    Modern tribes show similar rates, ranging from 56% dying through violence among Waorani natives in the Amazon to 4% in northern Australia. Average is probably around 25%.

    So essentially if you are a primitive person in a hunter-gatherer society you have between a 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 chance of being killed by another person.

    In contrast, death rate from violence in 17th century Western Europe was 2%, despite the 30 Years War in the beginning part of that century (by far most of Germany’s largescale population loss occurred due to famine, disease and migration rather than killings).

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  196. @RSDB
    @AP


    Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia
     
    If you go with Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions you have something that has developed in an Aryan milieu, if you go by language.

    I've heard of a few German monks who went there, but I doubt very much that this was one of their main motivating factors.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    In fact Buddhism adapted everywhere to influence and transform in depth the local culture. Buddhism could relatively easily include Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary into its pantheon of Bodhisattvas. Some say that the female representation of Avalokita Bodhisattva in China was directly impacted by the Nestorian Christian tradition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingjiao_Documents

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Bashibuzuk

    Maybe (Islam does this as far as Christ is concerned), the German monk I was thinking of did not:


    When passing through Tamil areas, he would sometimes stay with Christian priests. He said they treated him very well. He would sometimes talk to them about mettā and dāna (loving-kindness and generosity) and other things common to both religions. Beyond that he did not go, ‘That is all I can say’, he would say. However, when there was both a Christian and a Buddhist place, he would choose the Buddhist place though he was less well treated there.
     
    ven-nyanavimala.buddhasasana.net/texts/12-glimpses-of-ven-nyananvimala.htm
  197. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    So AP who is more European in spirit? Your princes of church who are welcoming the demographical transition of Europe? Who follow the party line of progressive elites, or the men of our Aryan Monastic Sangha who do not fear to speak their minds?
     
    This is the difference between a foreign ally and friend, versus a native traitor. The foreigner is a better person, but still an alien.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Better to live with a foreign friend than with a traitor brother.

    Something like an African Pope in the near future is just a matter of time…

  198. @Bashibuzuk
    @RSDB

    In fact Buddhism adapted everywhere to influence and transform in depth the local culture. Buddhism could relatively easily include Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary into its pantheon of Bodhisattvas. Some say that the female representation of Avalokita Bodhisattva in China was directly impacted by the Nestorian Christian tradition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingjiao_Documents

    Replies: @RSDB

    Maybe (Islam does this as far as Christ is concerned), the German monk I was thinking of did not:

    When passing through Tamil areas, he would sometimes stay with Christian priests. He said they treated him very well. He would sometimes talk to them about mettā and dāna (loving-kindness and generosity) and other things common to both religions. Beyond that he did not go, ‘That is all I can say’, he would say. However, when there was both a Christian and a Buddhist place, he would choose the Buddhist place though he was less well treated there.

    ven-nyanavimala.buddhasasana.net/texts/12-glimpses-of-ven-nyananvimala.htm

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
  199. @RSDB
    @AP


    Buddhism has probably been heavily influenced by non-Aryan Asia
     
    If you go with Sri Lankan Buddhist traditions you have something that has developed in an Aryan milieu, if you go by language.

    I've heard of a few German monks who went there, but I doubt very much that this was one of their main motivating factors.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Aryan was originally an ethnic self moniker for the horse riding Indo-European or Indo-Iranian people of Central Asian steppes, about 4000 years ago, they were distinct from the ancestors of Greek, Spanish, Anglos, Germans etc. After they invaded and conquered the Iranian plateau and Indo-Gangetic plain, the Aryan got a new meaning about 3000 years ago, a spiritual meaning.

    Aryan as used Nazis is a false appropriation of the term, without its traditional spiritual connotations. There are no pure Ancient Aryans left, but people of Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Greater Iran and Northern India are partially their offspring.

  200. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition ? They betrayed their people and often contributed to a foreign conquest. The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting belief systems with a complex mythological and philosophical content. It was killed after thousands of years of existence and hundreds of years of resistance to the overtake by an alien Eastern religion. It was killed in part because the elites found it profitable to betray and defect.

    Replies: @AP

    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition

    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting

    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.
     
    Though I think that European Classical Music is the highest level of music ever produced, one's taste in arts and literature are inherently subjective matters, Indians have no lack of great poets or writers. Names like Tagore or Valmiki are as great as any of the greatest European authors.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)
     
    England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Germany were more prone to have violent periods of warfare during the years 600-1800 than China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea. You know what was common for these lands? None of them started to believe that there is an Absolute and Highest power of universe, unlike Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Will of Heaven is more of an abstraction of nature's propensity for an order, than some ultimate God with a personality and sovereignty over all Creation.
    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.
     
    Though I think that European Classical Music is the highest level of music ever produced, one's taste in arts and literature are inherently subjective matters, Indians have no lack of great poets or writers. Names like Tagore or Valmiki are as great as any of the greatest European authors.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)
     
    England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Germany were more prone to have violent periods of warfare during the years 600-1800 than China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea. You know what was common for these lands? None of them started to believe that there is an Absolute and Highest power of universe, unlike Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Will of Heaven is more of an abstraction of nature's propensity for an order, than some ultimate God with a personality and sovereignty over all Creation.
    , @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    better than India, so likely
     
    India has produced Buddhism, which from my point of view is the supreme spiritual tradition. Indians devised the so called Arabic numbers. They had the idea of atoms before European people. They had great medecine, chemistry, architecture? psychology.

    Problem is, they and Persians got invaded by Muslims, which arrested their development. But if you think of Greco-Indian civilization, then it was in nothing inferior to Ancient Rome and Greece. Greeks themselves recognized that Indian sages were the equals of the Greek philosphers.

    Also, Greeks thought that Hyberboreans had an ancient and venerable spiritual tradition that has its own very wise sages and priests. And where do you think their Hyperborea was ?

    John G. Bennett wrote a research paper entitled "The Hyperborean Origin of the Indo-European Culture" (Journal Systematics, Vol. 1, No. 3, December 1963) in which he claimed the Indo-European homeland was in the far north, which he considered the Hyperborea of classical antiquity.[46] This idea was earlier proposed by Bal Gangadhar Tilak (whom Bennett credits) in his The Arctic Home in the Vedas (1903) as well as the Austro-Hungarian ethnologist Karl Penka (Origins of the Aryans, 1883).[47]
     
    Also they did not think that Scythians were ignorant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacharsis

    Do not think that our ancestors were brutes and bores. They were not. They deserve as much respect as any culture of their times.

    Orientals have the cult of Ancestors, I think that is great. I know my ancestry on my father's side since the late medieval era. They were good and respectable people who did many useful things for their community.

    My understanding is that you might be yourself a Rurikid or at least part of the Old Rus nobility. Believe me, these people and their roots were great even before their conversion to monotheism.

    We need to give all the respect that is due to them. Let's not act as the Wahhabi nihilists who say that what ever happened before Islam was "Ignorance " (Jahilyiah). There was spirit, thought and art in the Slavic lands before Christianity.

    Let's give credit where credit is due.

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    I agree with you in the narrow historical sense: Christianity helped expose backwards cultures to more literate, already Christianized ones at a faster rate. And Protestantism was superior to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy at promoting human capital accumulation (emphasis on individual salvation promoted literacy).

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence. Christians would have been the Pentecostals of their day.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

  201. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition
     
    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting
     
    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    Though I think that European Classical Music is the highest level of music ever produced, one’s taste in arts and literature are inherently subjective matters, Indians have no lack of great poets or writers. Names like Tagore or Valmiki are as great as any of the greatest European authors.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Germany were more prone to have violent periods of warfare during the years 600-1800 than China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea. You know what was common for these lands? None of them started to believe that there is an Absolute and Highest power of universe, unlike Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Will of Heaven is more of an abstraction of nature’s propensity for an order, than some ultimate God with a personality and sovereignty over all Creation.

  202. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition
     
    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting
     
    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    Though I think that European Classical Music is the highest level of music ever produced, one’s taste in arts and literature are inherently subjective matters, Indians have no lack of great poets or writers. Names like Tagore or Valmiki are as great as any of the greatest European authors.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Italy and Germany were more prone to have violent periods of warfare during the years 600-1800 than China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea. You know what was common for these lands? None of them started to believe that there is an Absolute and Highest power of universe, unlike Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Will of Heaven is more of an abstraction of nature’s propensity for an order, than some ultimate God with a personality and sovereignty over all Creation.

  203. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition
     
    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting
     
    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin

    better than India, so likely

    India has produced Buddhism, which from my point of view is the supreme spiritual tradition. Indians devised the so called Arabic numbers. They had the idea of atoms before European people. They had great medecine, chemistry, architecture? psychology.

    Problem is, they and Persians got invaded by Muslims, which arrested their development. But if you think of Greco-Indian civilization, then it was in nothing inferior to Ancient Rome and Greece. Greeks themselves recognized that Indian sages were the equals of the Greek philosphers.

    Also, Greeks thought that Hyberboreans had an ancient and venerable spiritual tradition that has its own very wise sages and priests. And where do you think their Hyperborea was ?

    John G. Bennett wrote a research paper entitled “The Hyperborean Origin of the Indo-European Culture” (Journal Systematics, Vol. 1, No. 3, December 1963) in which he claimed the Indo-European homeland was in the far north, which he considered the Hyperborea of classical antiquity.[46] This idea was earlier proposed by Bal Gangadhar Tilak (whom Bennett credits) in his The Arctic Home in the Vedas (1903) as well as the Austro-Hungarian ethnologist Karl Penka (Origins of the Aryans, 1883).[47]

    Also they did not think that Scythians were ignorant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacharsis

    Do not think that our ancestors were brutes and bores. They were not. They deserve as much respect as any culture of their times.

    Orientals have the cult of Ancestors, I think that is great. I know my ancestry on my father’s side since the late medieval era. They were good and respectable people who did many useful things for their community.

    My understanding is that you might be yourself a Rurikid or at least part of the Old Rus nobility. Believe me, these people and their roots were great even before their conversion to monotheism.

    We need to give all the respect that is due to them. Let’s not act as the Wahhabi nihilists who say that what ever happened before Islam was “Ignorance ” (Jahilyiah). There was spirit, thought and art in the Slavic lands before Christianity.

    Let’s give credit where credit is due.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Oh yes, Ultima Thule, Uttarakuru and Hyperborea are just different names for the original homeland of Aryans! Vaishravana who is extremely important figure in Buddhism, is their king. He is the Guardian of the North and he protects Vinaya and people with high level of ethics. Maybe the most important worldly protector in Buddhism, he was extremely important for Samurais and Mongols of the past.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/2/4/4/24467.jpg

    https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/bhive-jp/media/yabai/article/3213/1024px-Todaiji13s4592.jpg

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bishamonten_(Vaishravana),_Guardian_King_of_the_North,_Japan,_Edo_period,_1615-1700_AD,_colors_and_gold_on_wood_-_Asian_Art_Museum_of_San_Francisco_-_DSC01458.JPG

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  204. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    better than India, so likely
     
    India has produced Buddhism, which from my point of view is the supreme spiritual tradition. Indians devised the so called Arabic numbers. They had the idea of atoms before European people. They had great medecine, chemistry, architecture? psychology.

    Problem is, they and Persians got invaded by Muslims, which arrested their development. But if you think of Greco-Indian civilization, then it was in nothing inferior to Ancient Rome and Greece. Greeks themselves recognized that Indian sages were the equals of the Greek philosphers.

    Also, Greeks thought that Hyberboreans had an ancient and venerable spiritual tradition that has its own very wise sages and priests. And where do you think their Hyperborea was ?

    John G. Bennett wrote a research paper entitled "The Hyperborean Origin of the Indo-European Culture" (Journal Systematics, Vol. 1, No. 3, December 1963) in which he claimed the Indo-European homeland was in the far north, which he considered the Hyperborea of classical antiquity.[46] This idea was earlier proposed by Bal Gangadhar Tilak (whom Bennett credits) in his The Arctic Home in the Vedas (1903) as well as the Austro-Hungarian ethnologist Karl Penka (Origins of the Aryans, 1883).[47]
     
    Also they did not think that Scythians were ignorant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacharsis

    Do not think that our ancestors were brutes and bores. They were not. They deserve as much respect as any culture of their times.

    Orientals have the cult of Ancestors, I think that is great. I know my ancestry on my father's side since the late medieval era. They were good and respectable people who did many useful things for their community.

    My understanding is that you might be yourself a Rurikid or at least part of the Old Rus nobility. Believe me, these people and their roots were great even before their conversion to monotheism.

    We need to give all the respect that is due to them. Let's not act as the Wahhabi nihilists who say that what ever happened before Islam was "Ignorance " (Jahilyiah). There was spirit, thought and art in the Slavic lands before Christianity.

    Let's give credit where credit is due.

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Oh yes, Ultima Thule, Uttarakuru and Hyperborea are just different names for the original homeland of Aryans! Vaishravana who is extremely important figure in Buddhism, is their king. He is the Guardian of the North and he protects Vinaya and people with high level of ethics. Maybe the most important worldly protector in Buddhism, he was extremely important for Samurais and Mongols of the past.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Btw Vaishravana was especially revered in the Kingdom of Khotan, the last Scythian polity of Central Asia, which fell against genocidal Muslims in the year 1006, after three centuries of valiant struggle, it is said that his dress as depicted in Asian paintings is same as the military dress of the Khotanese soldiers.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/1/4/4/144.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  205. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Oh yes, Ultima Thule, Uttarakuru and Hyperborea are just different names for the original homeland of Aryans! Vaishravana who is extremely important figure in Buddhism, is their king. He is the Guardian of the North and he protects Vinaya and people with high level of ethics. Maybe the most important worldly protector in Buddhism, he was extremely important for Samurais and Mongols of the past.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/2/4/4/24467.jpg

    https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/bhive-jp/media/yabai/article/3213/1024px-Todaiji13s4592.jpg

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bishamonten_(Vaishravana),_Guardian_King_of_the_North,_Japan,_Edo_period,_1615-1700_AD,_colors_and_gold_on_wood_-_Asian_Art_Museum_of_San_Francisco_-_DSC01458.JPG

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Btw Vaishravana was especially revered in the Kingdom of Khotan, the last Scythian polity of Central Asia, which fell against genocidal Muslims in the year 1006, after three centuries of valiant struggle, it is said that his dress as depicted in Asian paintings is same as the military dress of the Khotanese soldiers.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/06/22/apollo-and-the-hyperboreans/amp/

    https://cdn.britannica.com/32/3832-050-D9CCB5E2/Chalk-cliffs-island-Stubbenkammer-promontory-Ger-Rugen.jpg

  206. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Btw Vaishravana was especially revered in the Kingdom of Khotan, the last Scythian polity of Central Asia, which fell against genocidal Muslims in the year 1006, after three centuries of valiant struggle, it is said that his dress as depicted in Asian paintings is same as the military dress of the Khotanese soldiers.

    https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/1/4/4/144.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  207. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition. Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East. But the discussion of any belief system should not be about it being is of East or West, not about cultural sude of the traditions, not about races and colours of skin or IQ. This is all irrelevant.

    It is about the right understanding of what we humans are, and about what this world of ours is. It is about the right attitude to develop facing this world. And about the right practice to achieve. It is about the right goal for this practice.

    All human beings are imperfect, they are born independently of their own will, they live conditioned lives full of stress, they age and they die. This is where the reflection should start: what are we as human beings to do of this stressful, conditioned and impermanent existence. And once one started this reflection, then one should fearlessly pursue it to the very end without clinging to race, caste, gender, traditions of one's ancestors and so on and so forth.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    When I go to Moscow, I always visit the Church where I was baptized, I spend time there and donate what I can afford for its restauration and maintenance. I wish it to stand strong and beautiful for hundreds of years. When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto - Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    But my preferences and emotions regarding these existing and lost belief systems are irrelevant. What is relevant, is what brings me closer to what I feel as Real and True.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.

    Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East.

    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.

    Thank you. I agree.

    When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.

    I’m sure it did. But given the performance of its brother-faith in India, we are probably better off for having upgraded to the Christian faith and grown with it, rather than having remained pagans.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.
     
    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha? All my examples are well thought, in every one of these cultures there were people who thought like you, but people can and will continue no matter what their faith is.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.
     
    It's anachronistic to claim that Hellenism was somehow European during the classical times, it's well known that ancient Greeks felt more kinship with inhabitants of Syria and Egypt than with people of Germania and Gaullia.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AP

  208. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    Local spiritual tradition in modern day Ukraine had some 10 000 years history.

    http://ua.stonegrave.org/index

    The earliest Y haplogroup R1a found in Ukraine is directly from a late Tripolian burial. It's the same haplogroup that is found in the Scythian populations and later in Turkic populations accross Eurasia.

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/fully-steppe-like-proto-corded-ware-late-trypillians/

    Tripolians built impressive settlements in the late neolithic and early chalcolithic.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0222243#sec029

    https://nplus1.ru/news/2019/09/26/public-buildings/amp

    And they often used Swastika as their symbol.

    http://kabak.dp.ua/get/swa/svasti6.gif

    You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?

    If you do, then you have an incurable inferiority complex...

    🙂

    Replies: @AP

    You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?

    God’s Son wasn’t born among the “Trypillians.” Although I agree that they made beautiful pottery. It is too bad that before the upgrade Jesuits did not exist to come and record their stories for posterity.

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?

    It was, compared to that given by the Greeks. The theology of the pagan Slavs wasn’t written down, but it was likely similar to that of illiterate Aryan folk, perhaps the Kalashi people are a model. Now compare that to the works of Christian thinkers of those times. Compare the decorated poles with the beautiful and complex Orthodox Churches with their iconography, that replaced the etched poles within mere decades. Compare the primitive earthen dwellings with the Christian cities. Etc.

    You will claim that the Slavic pagans needed to be given a chance. Ok – as I wrote, this would have meant a few more centuries of dark barbarism* at least, before a higher totally native civilization rose up. And what would it have looked like? Something like India, with colder climate? Are Indian architecture, cities etc. as nice as those of European Christendom? Christianity’s approach toward nature meant an explosion of technological progress (this has already been discussed). So forget about Christian Europe’s technological marvels and its effect on standard of living. Christ-less Slavic lands would have perhaps been like southern India c. 600 in the year 2000, only with harsher weather. And about the same in another thousand years after that. And so on. For Indian civilization is ancient and despite the thousands of years head start it was rather stable, or stagnant.

    And this assumes that somehow Islam would not have converted the Slavs, in the absence of Christianity. Because the faith of pagan tribes inevitably falls to that of Christianity or its worse Islamic cousin. The pagans wanted something better. After some initial resistance their children did not want to go back to their primitive tribal lives. I don’t think anyone of us really would.

    *And let’s not romanticize this. Tribal people do lead rather short and brutal lives of stupid revenge warfare, vendettas, human sacrifice, etc. My pre-Christian Rus ancestors would spend their time pillaging the Eastern Slav settlements and selling some of the victims as slaves to the Arabs and Persians. Just another day at the office. Despite internecine wars of the Rus princes, Christian Rus of the 11th century was more humane and pleasant than were those lands in the 9th century.

    https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths

    Graves in ancient Ukraine (Volos’ke, (Ukraine), ‘Epipalaeolithic’; ca. 7500 BCE) showed 22% of people died by violence. In Northern India in 850 BC (when the area was settled by Aryans) it was 30%.

    [MORE]

    The levels of violence in prehistoric times (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic evidence) was much higher than in modern state societies and in the world today…

    Charts show that death rates from violence in archeological sites varied widely by tribe, from 60% among 14th century Crow Indians in South Dakota to less than 5% among pre-contact natives in California and ancient tribals in Algeria. But the average was around 22% of people dying through violence.

    Modern tribes show similar rates, ranging from 56% dying through violence among Waorani natives in the Amazon to 4% in northern Australia. Average is probably around 25%.

    So essentially if you are a primitive person in a hunter-gatherer society you have between a 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 chance of being killed by another person.

    In contrast, death rate from violence in 17th century Western Europe was 2%, despite the 30 Years War in the beginning part of that century (by far most of Germany’s largescale population loss occurred due to famine, disease and migration rather than killings).

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing, for there is the aspect of selecting the strong among the population to breed and ensuring that the fittest rule the weak.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan. And of course Buddhist societies were quite peaceful, despite often having warlike warrior castes. I would also think that if we remove the foreign invasions, the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies. We also should note the relative tolerance of the Pagan religious practices for differing spiritual perspectives.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this:

    https://cdn.britannica.com/86/170586-050-AB7FEFAE/Taj-Mahal-Agra-India.jpg

    https://c8.alamy.com/compfr/b070hg/agra-fort-rouge-le-khas-mahal-et-anguri-bagh-b070hg.jpg

    But even at the times of ancient Greece, Indian culture had its great Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas, its great poems and of course it had the Buddhadharma:

    https://www.adotrip.com/public/images/areas/5f04898d702e7-Ajanta%20Caves%20Trip.jpg

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TX16Czc0Klo/hqdefault.jpg

    But even before that, the (proto)Aryan Sintashta Arkaim culture had nothing to be ashamed of as a Bronze Age society:

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/arkiam-scaled.jpg

    But as I wrote above; if you believe that these people were inherently inferior to some desert-dwelling ancient Semitic nomads, then you have a strongly ingrained cultural and spiritual inferiority complex.

    These would have been the people God chose to incarnate among them?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu

    If you believe that, then all I have to say is what the great Kievan prince Sviatoslav Igorevich told before me : "Вера христова юродство еси."

    Replies: @AP

  209. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You really believe that these people were dumber than some ancient desert-dwelling Semites?
     
    God's Son wasn't born among the "Trypillians." Although I agree that they made beautiful pottery. It is too bad that before the upgrade Jesuits did not exist to come and record their stories for posterity.

    That the religion of their descendants was irredeemably backward?
     
    It was, compared to that given by the Greeks. The theology of the pagan Slavs wasn't written down, but it was likely similar to that of illiterate Aryan folk, perhaps the Kalashi people are a model. Now compare that to the works of Christian thinkers of those times. Compare the decorated poles with the beautiful and complex Orthodox Churches with their iconography, that replaced the etched poles within mere decades. Compare the primitive earthen dwellings with the Christian cities. Etc.

    You will claim that the Slavic pagans needed to be given a chance. Ok - as I wrote, this would have meant a few more centuries of dark barbarism* at least, before a higher totally native civilization rose up. And what would it have looked like? Something like India, with colder climate? Are Indian architecture, cities etc. as nice as those of European Christendom? Christianity's approach toward nature meant an explosion of technological progress (this has already been discussed). So forget about Christian Europe's technological marvels and its effect on standard of living. Christ-less Slavic lands would have perhaps been like southern India c. 600 in the year 2000, only with harsher weather. And about the same in another thousand years after that. And so on. For Indian civilization is ancient and despite the thousands of years head start it was rather stable, or stagnant.

    And this assumes that somehow Islam would not have converted the Slavs, in the absence of Christianity. Because the faith of pagan tribes inevitably falls to that of Christianity or its worse Islamic cousin. The pagans wanted something better. After some initial resistance their children did not want to go back to their primitive tribal lives. I don't think anyone of us really would.

    *And let's not romanticize this. Tribal people do lead rather short and brutal lives of stupid revenge warfare, vendettas, human sacrifice, etc. My pre-Christian Rus ancestors would spend their time pillaging the Eastern Slav settlements and selling some of the victims as slaves to the Arabs and Persians. Just another day at the office. Despite internecine wars of the Rus princes, Christian Rus of the 11th century was more humane and pleasant than were those lands in the 9th century.

    https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths

    Graves in ancient Ukraine (Volos'ke, (Ukraine), 'Epipalaeolithic'; ca. 7500 BCE) showed 22% of people died by violence. In Northern India in 850 BC (when the area was settled by Aryans) it was 30%.



    The levels of violence in prehistoric times (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic evidence) was much higher than in modern state societies and in the world today…

    Charts show that death rates from violence in archeological sites varied widely by tribe, from 60% among 14th century Crow Indians in South Dakota to less than 5% among pre-contact natives in California and ancient tribals in Algeria. But the average was around 22% of people dying through violence.

    Modern tribes show similar rates, ranging from 56% dying through violence among Waorani natives in the Amazon to 4% in northern Australia. Average is probably around 25%.

    So essentially if you are a primitive person in a hunter-gatherer society you have between a 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 chance of being killed by another person.

    In contrast, death rate from violence in 17th century Western Europe was 2%, despite the 30 Years War in the beginning part of that century (by far most of Germany’s largescale population loss occurred due to famine, disease and migration rather than killings).

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing, for there is the aspect of selecting the strong among the population to breed and ensuring that the fittest rule the weak.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan. And of course Buddhist societies were quite peaceful, despite often having warlike warrior castes. I would also think that if we remove the foreign invasions, the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies. We also should note the relative tolerance of the Pagan religious practices for differing spiritual perspectives.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this:

    But even at the times of ancient Greece, Indian culture had its great Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas, its great poems and of course it had the Buddhadharma:

    But even before that, the (proto)Aryan Sintashta Arkaim culture had nothing to be ashamed of as a Bronze Age society:

    But as I wrote above; if you believe that these people were inherently inferior to some desert-dwelling ancient Semitic nomads, then you have a strongly ingrained cultural and spiritual inferiority complex.

    These would have been the people God chose to incarnate among them?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu

    If you believe that, then all I have to say is what the great Kievan prince Sviatoslav Igorevich told before me : “Вера христова юродство еси.”

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing
     
    You think it’s better to be a wolf than a sheep to your neighbors or to the villagers down the river? Guess what, communism successfully de-Christianized Russia to the extent that there were plenty of wolves around at its end. How was that? Well, it made Russians of that time “tougher” I guess. But before Christianity it was even worse of course - about 1 in 5 people died by violence.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan
     
    If one discounts the entertainment of gladiator combat or people being ripped apart by hungry animals. Probably the violence rate was lower than among tribals. Remember, you proposed that Northern Europe would have persisted in its savage state (presumably for a few centuries) before eventually developing its own civilization.

    the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies
     
    Sure, they had a long head start, in early medieval times Europeans were still not far from the times of pagan savages. I doubt that by the time of the high Middle Ages Europe was behind though.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this
     
    Taj Mahal was certainly impressive but in terms of architecture and visual arts would it compare to the contemporaneous Saint Peters Basilica?

    https://previews.123rf.com/images/boggy22/boggy221405/boggy22140500357/27964335-people-at-the-interior-of-the-saint-peter-cathedral-in-vatican-at-july-19-2013-saint-peter-s-basilic.jpg

    And those Indian palaces do not really compare to Versailles or Hermitage.

    And there are numerous monuments throughout Christendom that surpass ones in India. The Christians even built beautiful churches like this one in Mexico:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/89/31/0989310d93561378300b3ab346629f8a.jpg

    And then there are the Christian towns, the market squares of Krakow or Riga or countless other towns, or even small ones like this one in Austria:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Tirol_Hall_02.jpg

    And then there is the classical music, the visual representation of people, perhaps poetry and literature are harder to judge objectively. Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  210. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Christianity itself is an Eastern spiritual tradition.
     
    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God's Son to be born at that place and that time.

    Western European people had adopted and to some extent adapted it to their needs, but it was born in the East.
     
    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity "grew up" together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    When I discuss the current state of Christianity, I am not celebrating its demise in Europe and MENA. On the opposite, I wish it was stronger because for all that I see as flawed in the Christian faith, I still consider it as way superior compared to its Abrahamic spiritual siblings: Judaism and Islam.
     
    Thank you. I agree.

    When I decry the destruction and erasure of the Balto – Slavic old pagan faith it is because I have no doubt in my mind that it had beautiful aspects about it and might have learned us how to be better and stronger sons of our own people.
     
    I'm sure it did. But given the performance of its brother-faith in India, we are probably better off for having upgraded to the Christian faith and grown with it, rather than having remained pagans.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.

    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha? All my examples are well thought, in every one of these cultures there were people who thought like you, but people can and will continue no matter what their faith is.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.

    It’s anachronistic to claim that Hellenism was somehow European during the classical times, it’s well known that ancient Greeks felt more kinship with inhabitants of Syria and Egypt than with people of Germania and Gaullia.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Though I must acknowledge that it would pain me horribly if Mongols and Tibetans would convert from Buddhism to some other religion, so I understand AP your position, but we must be intellectually honest.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha?
     
    I agree with and and think you misunderstood my point. Badhibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.” My point was simply that Europe and Russia in their greatness cannot be separated from their Christianity, they have been fused throughout their development.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  211. @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.
     
    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha? All my examples are well thought, in every one of these cultures there were people who thought like you, but people can and will continue no matter what their faith is.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.
     
    It's anachronistic to claim that Hellenism was somehow European during the classical times, it's well known that ancient Greeks felt more kinship with inhabitants of Syria and Egypt than with people of Germania and Gaullia.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AP

    Though I must acknowledge that it would pain me horribly if Mongols and Tibetans would convert from Buddhism to some other religion, so I understand AP your position, but we must be intellectually honest.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    ...and accept reality as it is, not how we wish it to be.

  212. You are right about the Arian part, but Zoroastrian Persians thought that Hindu Devas were demons. They split already in Turan. Did you know about the Arkaim Sintashta culture and the Bactria Margiana culture? Both were Aryan

    False, the split happened after migration to Indian subcontinent and Iranian plateau. In Rig Veda or in Mahayana Sutras Ashuras are not necessarily evil creatures, unlike in modern Hinduism, in which they are always evil and demonic. In Buddhist stories they are more like Titans, weaker and more aggressive than gods, often malevolent, sometimes neutral and sometimes even followers of Buddha’s Dharma. Yes some worldly protectors of Dharma are Asuras.

    And even bigger falsehood, BMAC was not Aryan, though Aryans later conquered then and mixed with them, BMAC people had no Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta, they probably looked like most Middle Eastern looking Iranians of modern era, in other words they looked like Kurds.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta
     
    Arkaim Sintashta people were mainly Corded Ware. They had some Yamnaya admixture due to them assimilating the local populations who had both Yamnaya and Okunevo ancestry.

    In Central Asia, Yamnaya people were the direct ancestors of Afanasievo Culture, which precedes Arkaim Sintashta by nearly 1000 years. Afanasievo was replaced by the paleo-Siberian/Altaic Okunevo Culture which in turn got conquered by the Corded Ware folks migrating from the West. The Corded Ware migration might have something to do with the Bell Beaker folks exterminating the Corded Ware folks in Central Europe. The Corded Ware folks moved further and further East until they reached the Arkaim Sintashta territory.

    You are correct about founders of BAMAC being mostly Middle Eastern with perhaps a local admixture. They were probably related to Sumerians with possibly some Elamite influence.

    What I was (clumsily) trying to describe is that Indus Valley conquered by Aryans and BAMAC conquered by Aryans both became Aryan civilizations. The former produced Vedic Aryans, the latter the Avestan Aryans. That's when their cultures and religions split between Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

    Those Aryans who stayed in the Turanian steppes kept their traditional religious outlook which probably included both proto-Zoroastrian elements and shamanism. I think early Bön, prior to its interaction with Buddhism would qualify as a proxy for their belief system. Those are the people who later were called Scythians by the Greeks.

  213. @AltanBakshi

    You are right about the Arian part, but Zoroastrian Persians thought that Hindu Devas were demons. They split already in Turan. Did you know about the Arkaim Sintashta culture and the Bactria Margiana culture? Both were Aryan
     
    False, the split happened after migration to Indian subcontinent and Iranian plateau. In Rig Veda or in Mahayana Sutras Ashuras are not necessarily evil creatures, unlike in modern Hinduism, in which they are always evil and demonic. In Buddhist stories they are more like Titans, weaker and more aggressive than gods, often malevolent, sometimes neutral and sometimes even followers of Buddha's Dharma. Yes some worldly protectors of Dharma are Asuras.

    And even bigger falsehood, BMAC was not Aryan, though Aryans later conquered then and mixed with them, BMAC people had no Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta, they probably looked like most Middle Eastern looking Iranians of modern era, in other words they looked like Kurds.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Yamnaya ancestry unlike people of Andronovo and Sintashta

    Arkaim Sintashta people were mainly Corded Ware. They had some Yamnaya admixture due to them assimilating the local populations who had both Yamnaya and Okunevo ancestry.

    In Central Asia, Yamnaya people were the direct ancestors of Afanasievo Culture, which precedes Arkaim Sintashta by nearly 1000 years. Afanasievo was replaced by the paleo-Siberian/Altaic Okunevo Culture which in turn got conquered by the Corded Ware folks migrating from the West. The Corded Ware migration might have something to do with the Bell Beaker folks exterminating the Corded Ware folks in Central Europe. The Corded Ware folks moved further and further East until they reached the Arkaim Sintashta territory.

    You are correct about founders of BAMAC being mostly Middle Eastern with perhaps a local admixture. They were probably related to Sumerians with possibly some Elamite influence.

    What I was (clumsily) trying to describe is that Indus Valley conquered by Aryans and BAMAC conquered by Aryans both became Aryan civilizations. The former produced Vedic Aryans, the latter the Avestan Aryans. That’s when their cultures and religions split between Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

    Those Aryans who stayed in the Turanian steppes kept their traditional religious outlook which probably included both proto-Zoroastrian elements and shamanism. I think early Bön, prior to its interaction with Buddhism would qualify as a proxy for their belief system. Those are the people who later were called Scythians by the Greeks.

  214. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    You understand that our ancestors who converted to Christian faith were themselves traitors to a thousand years old native tradition
     
    They upgraded their lands and civilisations physically and morally by adopting and assimilating the Christian faith. This is totally different from, for example, Merkel letting in a flood of outsiders.

    The tradition was most probably similar to a primitive form of Hinduism, Celtic religion and Hellenic/Roman paganism therefore it had the potential needed to evolve into very interesting
     
    This is true. Although it is sad that the details have been lost, and fascinating to glimpse an alternative universe with a highly developed nativist Slavic civilization:

    1. Christendom has been better than India, so likely what would have eventually developed would have been worse than what we got. Has Hinduism produced a Dostoyevsky? A Bach? Etc.

    2. Adopting Christianity probably meant a leap ahead of hundreds of years if not more in development. Hundreds of years of less barbarism (forget the Romantic myths, tribal life is rather brutal)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi, @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin

    I agree with you in the narrow historical sense: Christianity helped expose backwards cultures to more literate, already Christianized ones at a faster rate. And Protestantism was superior to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy at promoting human capital accumulation (emphasis on individual salvation promoted literacy).

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence. Christians would have been the Pentecostals of their day.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.
     
    Christianity > Judaism.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence
     
    Not really. Byzantium was a literate sophisticated society (this was inherited from pre-Christian times, I know, but Christianity did not get in the way) and adoption of Christianity brought widespread literacy to Rus. The Western barbarians, too, became intellectual under Christ. Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.
     
    I suspect that culture can probably affect genetic IQ. Ashkenazi Jews are an extreme example, but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability. Until fairly recently 100-150 years ago, depending on country) smarter Europeans had larger families. Rewards in pre-Christian tribal times as in modern tribal areas might have gone more to stronger and more daring or violent folk.

    When ancient Romans thought of pre-Christian Northern Europeans as brave and noble, but dim, they might not have been wrong. By the 16th century there might have been a different genetic profile for the people living in those lands. India’s Hinduism may contribute to its IQ profile by encouraging different traits in the various segregated castes (brilliant Brahmins, dim masses).
  215. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing, for there is the aspect of selecting the strong among the population to breed and ensuring that the fittest rule the weak.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan. And of course Buddhist societies were quite peaceful, despite often having warlike warrior castes. I would also think that if we remove the foreign invasions, the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies. We also should note the relative tolerance of the Pagan religious practices for differing spiritual perspectives.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this:

    https://cdn.britannica.com/86/170586-050-AB7FEFAE/Taj-Mahal-Agra-India.jpg

    https://c8.alamy.com/compfr/b070hg/agra-fort-rouge-le-khas-mahal-et-anguri-bagh-b070hg.jpg

    But even at the times of ancient Greece, Indian culture had its great Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas, its great poems and of course it had the Buddhadharma:

    https://www.adotrip.com/public/images/areas/5f04898d702e7-Ajanta%20Caves%20Trip.jpg

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TX16Czc0Klo/hqdefault.jpg

    But even before that, the (proto)Aryan Sintashta Arkaim culture had nothing to be ashamed of as a Bronze Age society:

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/arkiam-scaled.jpg

    But as I wrote above; if you believe that these people were inherently inferior to some desert-dwelling ancient Semitic nomads, then you have a strongly ingrained cultural and spiritual inferiority complex.

    These would have been the people God chose to incarnate among them?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu

    If you believe that, then all I have to say is what the great Kievan prince Sviatoslav Igorevich told before me : "Вера христова юродство еси."

    Replies: @AP

    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing

    You think it’s better to be a wolf than a sheep to your neighbors or to the villagers down the river? Guess what, communism successfully de-Christianized Russia to the extent that there were plenty of wolves around at its end. How was that? Well, it made Russians of that time “tougher” I guess. But before Christianity it was even worse of course – about 1 in 5 people died by violence.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan

    If one discounts the entertainment of gladiator combat or people being ripped apart by hungry animals. Probably the violence rate was lower than among tribals. Remember, you proposed that Northern Europe would have persisted in its savage state (presumably for a few centuries) before eventually developing its own civilization.

    the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies

    Sure, they had a long head start, in early medieval times Europeans were still not far from the times of pagan savages. I doubt that by the time of the high Middle Ages Europe was behind though.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this

    Taj Mahal was certainly impressive but in terms of architecture and visual arts would it compare to the contemporaneous Saint Peters Basilica?

    And those Indian palaces do not really compare to Versailles or Hermitage.

    And there are numerous monuments throughout Christendom that surpass ones in India. The Christians even built beautiful churches like this one in Mexico:

    And then there are the Christian towns, the market squares of Krakow or Riga or countless other towns, or even small ones like this one in Austria:

    And then there is the classical music, the visual representation of people, perhaps poetry and literature are harder to judge objectively. Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.
     
    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom. In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization. This downfall is certainly the result of many different factors. My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

    Replies: @AP

  216. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    I agree that Christianity pacified people, I might write that it domesticated them. Turned wolves into sheep. But I am not certain it was a good thing
     
    You think it’s better to be a wolf than a sheep to your neighbors or to the villagers down the river? Guess what, communism successfully de-Christianized Russia to the extent that there were plenty of wolves around at its end. How was that? Well, it made Russians of that time “tougher” I guess. But before Christianity it was even worse of course - about 1 in 5 people died by violence.

    Besides, Hellenic Mediterranean Basin was not such a violent place despite it being Pagan
     
    If one discounts the entertainment of gladiator combat or people being ripped apart by hungry animals. Probably the violence rate was lower than among tribals. Remember, you proposed that Northern Europe would have persisted in its savage state (presumably for a few centuries) before eventually developing its own civilization.

    the great Hindustani empires ensured a relatively peaceful living and a better standard of life than early medieval European societies
     
    Sure, they had a long head start, in early medieval times Europeans were still not far from the times of pagan savages. I doubt that by the time of the high Middle Ages Europe was behind though.

    I am also strongly in disagreement with your assessment of the Indian culture and architecture. Despite being by no means someone who idealises India, I still must underscore that in the seventeen century Indian economic output was higher than the output of European countries and Indian architecture produced this
     
    Taj Mahal was certainly impressive but in terms of architecture and visual arts would it compare to the contemporaneous Saint Peters Basilica?

    https://previews.123rf.com/images/boggy22/boggy221405/boggy22140500357/27964335-people-at-the-interior-of-the-saint-peter-cathedral-in-vatican-at-july-19-2013-saint-peter-s-basilic.jpg

    And those Indian palaces do not really compare to Versailles or Hermitage.

    And there are numerous monuments throughout Christendom that surpass ones in India. The Christians even built beautiful churches like this one in Mexico:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/89/31/0989310d93561378300b3ab346629f8a.jpg

    And then there are the Christian towns, the market squares of Krakow or Riga or countless other towns, or even small ones like this one in Austria:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Tirol_Hall_02.jpg

    And then there is the classical music, the visual representation of people, perhaps poetry and literature are harder to judge objectively. Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.

    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom. In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization. This downfall is certainly the result of many different factors. My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom
     
    I am aware of Europe before and Europe during Christendom. No one has achieved the level of technological mastery, artistic beauty and excellence, compassion, and global political/military dominance (as a complete package) as had European Christendom.

    In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization
     
    European civilization expanded to include most of the Americas and Australia/New Zealand. The Western part of the original homeland may become about a third Arab/Muslim ( these guys are themselves declining, they are just a generation behind so they will still expand for a bit). This is not pleasant but is not a downfall.

    My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.
     
    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it? I agree with Altan that such things are universal. Christ came to all for all, Europe has flourished with Him.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  217. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Though I must acknowledge that it would pain me horribly if Mongols and Tibetans would convert from Buddhism to some other religion, so I understand AP your position, but we must be intellectually honest.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    …and accept reality as it is, not how we wish it to be.

  218. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Overall I would not compare the fruits of Indian civilization to those of European Christendom.
     
    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom. In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization. This downfall is certainly the result of many different factors. My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

    Replies: @AP

    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom

    I am aware of Europe before and Europe during Christendom. No one has achieved the level of technological mastery, artistic beauty and excellence, compassion, and global political/military dominance (as a complete package) as had European Christendom.

    In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization

    European civilization expanded to include most of the Americas and Australia/New Zealand. The Western part of the original homeland may become about a third Arab/Muslim ( these guys are themselves declining, they are just a generation behind so they will still expand for a bit). This is not pleasant but is not a downfall.

    My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.

    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it? I agree with Altan that such things are universal. Christ came to all for all, Europe has flourished with Him.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it?
     
    Buddhism adapts to any given culture by integrating its spiritual traditions into its own. Christianity erases the native spiritual traditions. Both are universal, but one is more totalitarian. As I wrote above, Buddhism could easily integrate Christian spiritual practices and Christ himself. OTOH, Christianity cannot integrate Buddhadharma.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  219. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    I agree with you in the narrow historical sense: Christianity helped expose backwards cultures to more literate, already Christianized ones at a faster rate. And Protestantism was superior to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy at promoting human capital accumulation (emphasis on individual salvation promoted literacy).

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence. Christians would have been the Pentecostals of their day.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    Christianity > Judaism.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence

    Not really. Byzantium was a literate sophisticated society (this was inherited from pre-Christian times, I know, but Christianity did not get in the way) and adoption of Christianity brought widespread literacy to Rus. The Western barbarians, too, became intellectual under Christ. Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I'm not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).


    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.
     
    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe's human capital), then expand it.

    ... but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.
     
    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn't exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @AltanBakshi, @AP

  220. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Sure. Western Europeans and Western Christianity “grew up” together, they cannot be separated, just as Russians and their brilliant culture cannot be separated from Orthodoxy.
     
    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha? All my examples are well thought, in every one of these cultures there were people who thought like you, but people can and will continue no matter what their faith is.

    It is universal but had roots in the Middle East, in a place of mixed Hellenistic (European) and Judaic (Semitic) influences. There was probably good reason for God’s Son to be born at that place and that time.
     
    It's anachronistic to claim that Hellenism was somehow European during the classical times, it's well known that ancient Greeks felt more kinship with inhabitants of Syria and Egypt than with people of Germania and Gaullia.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AP

    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha?

    I agree with and and think you misunderstood my point. Badhibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.” My point was simply that Europe and Russia in their greatness cannot be separated from their Christianity, they have been fused throughout their development.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Bashibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.”
     
    I have used the traditional gentile logic where every human culture had the right, perhaps even the obligation to preserve and develop its ancestral spiritual inheritance. It is very unfortunate that today this logic has been abandoned by most Gentiles and is mostly kept among the Israelites. Christ with his message of "no Greek and Scythian " remaining when all become Christians was in fact the first globalist, which of course is natural for a son of poor emigrants growing up in a multinational and multicultural metropolis (Alexandria in first century AD). He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.

    Replies: @AP, @Coconuts

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Can Jewish greatness be separated from their religion? Would they still be intelligent and productive if they would convert to Christianity or Buddhism? Please I want to know your answer.

    Christianity is a great religion and has clearly been beneficial to most of its adherents, but it's not the end point of history, Christ's kingdom is not from this world, and as St. Augustine clearly stated in his De Civitate Dei, how Earthly kingdom with its material achievements and Heavenly Kingdom with its eternal life are two distinct realms, and Christian is first of all the citizen of the Heavenly Civitas, material things come and go, civilizations rise and fall, but Christ's Kingdom is eternal, beyond time and place. I am a great fan and supporter of Christianity, though I don't agree with every Christian viewpoint, or always understand their logic, but I believe that genuine Christians have good motivations and their hearts are pure, they do not mean harm for any man, as long as they are not attacked. My "dhimmitude" towards Christianity is so great that from my whole heart I would support if charter of UN or European constitution would begin by words, "Our laws are based on Christ's teaching," or something similar. Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if St- Augustine would have debunked your logic as a heresy! Material gains as a proof of Christ's greatness? Gold and glitter, like whore's makeup as a proof of God's greatness. Magna Mater's cultists(Cybele) probably had quite blingy sanctuaries in the Carthage of the time of St. Augustine. What about the sense of tight knitted community, helping of the poor, marital fidelity, respect of elders?

    There are strange parallels and similarities with the modern LBGTIQ+ cult and the cult of Cybele. When Rome started to decay the foreign cult of Great Mother or goddess Cybele grew in popularity, there were huge parades where his priests, the Galli, who were mutilated men, dressed in female clothes, danced ecstatically, shaked their limbs and so on. Romans of the Republic saw her cult as dangerous, and there was a law that prohibited Roman citizens to partake in her celebrations and rites, but later Romans got lax and such laws were not followed anymore. Clearly she is alive and well, dangerous as ever...

    Replies: @AP

  221. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    I see that you are very Eurocentric and you cannot imagine Europe without Christendom
     
    I am aware of Europe before and Europe during Christendom. No one has achieved the level of technological mastery, artistic beauty and excellence, compassion, and global political/military dominance (as a complete package) as had European Christendom.

    In the coming decades we will see a significant decrease, perhaps a downfall of the European civilization
     
    European civilization expanded to include most of the Americas and Australia/New Zealand. The Western part of the original homeland may become about a third Arab/Muslim ( these guys are themselves declining, they are just a generation behind so they will still expand for a bit). This is not pleasant but is not a downfall.

    My personal and subjective opinion is that this downfall is caused in part by the loss of roots and identity among Europeans. This loss started when they chose to follow alien and exotic spiritual traditions. It started with their mass conversion to Christianity.
     
    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it? I agree with Altan that such things are universal. Christ came to all for all, Europe has flourished with Him.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it?

    Buddhism adapts to any given culture by integrating its spiritual traditions into its own. Christianity erases the native spiritual traditions. Both are universal, but one is more totalitarian. As I wrote above, Buddhism could easily integrate Christian spiritual practices and Christ himself. OTOH, Christianity cannot integrate Buddhadharma.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Japanese Kamis, Burmese Nats, Vedic Gods, Chinese Taoist Deities, Mongolian Tengris, Tibetan Spirits and so on and so on are part of our religion, and mostly without problems, except if those entities demand blood sacrifices, then its more complicated. Even some gods of Hellenic pantheon are part of our religion, like Herakles/Hercules.

    https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/150/abstract/heraklesvajrapani-companion-buddha

    His cult is well alive, he is one the most popular Bodhisattvas and Dharma protectors, though he is commonly known by his Sanskrit name Vajrapani. If Buddhism would have met with Slavic Paganism we would have incorporated their pantheon with ours, Slavic traditions and rites would still live on, even Iranian deities and demons still live with us, some are quite popular.

  222. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha?
     
    I agree with and and think you misunderstood my point. Badhibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.” My point was simply that Europe and Russia in their greatness cannot be separated from their Christianity, they have been fused throughout their development.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Bashibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.”

    I have used the traditional gentile logic where every human culture had the right, perhaps even the obligation to preserve and develop its ancestral spiritual inheritance. It is very unfortunate that today this logic has been abandoned by most Gentiles and is mostly kept among the Israelites. Christ with his message of “no Greek and Scythian ” remaining when all become Christians was in fact the first globalist, which of course is natural for a son of poor emigrants growing up in a multinational and multicultural metropolis (Alexandria in first century AD). He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    There is a wonderful essay in Orthodox theologian Hart’s Atheist Delusions about this. But yes, Christ was revolutionary, He liberated mankind and this is reflected in the sheer brilliance, beauty, compassion and power of Christian civilization. It was creative, not destructive as in the case of wokeness. Slavic poles and crude Aztec pyramids alike, replaced by beautiful cathedrals. Cruel worship of strength replaced by love and mercy, yet resulting in strength the world had never before seen as the heirs and children if God took possession of the world not because they were motivated by greed (yes there was some of that too) but by love also.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Coconuts
    @Bashibuzuk


    He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.
     
    Wokeness involves extensive post-modern and Foucauldian input, preserving a plurality of minority discourses from being subsumed into a metanarrative or dominant discourse is one of their preoccupations. They always want to dismantle and attack dominant discourses, and Christ would be the origin of a powerful version of one of these, so they wouldn't like him.

    The fact that Wokeness mixes this with globalism and heterodox flavours of Marxism is one indication of how incoherent it actually is, it makes me think it is more a symptom of cultural decay or disintegration than anything else. The woke grab bits and pieces of cultural and ideology to integrate into aimlessly subversive emotion fueled activism. Then the illusiveness, incoherence and opacity of the ideological production make it useful as a front for globalist financial interests.

    The Roman Empire appears to have had a mixed record of preserving the native religions of the people it conquered in the West, if their religion could not accept the Roman imperial cult and the Roman gods, it had to be modified and obstacles to that (such as druids) removed. Sometimes significant numbers of people were taken away, around 10% of the pre-invasion British population seems to have been taken as slaves or killed by the Romans, and these were later replaced by immigrants transported from other parts of the empire.

    Christian Europe, as it arose in the areas of Europe that were part of the Roman Empire, seems to owe a lot, not just tendencies in religion and culture, but even social and economic organisation to Rome. This may one reason why the idea that Christianity is somehow the cause of wokeness or the recent decline in these areas feels more implausible to me, the Romans had already started to spread civilisation from the Eastern Mediterranean all over by the time it arose.

    It is also interesting that the Old Testament looks to have been for many centuries the best known and most widely distributed book in Europe which contains the narrative that each nation or people has its own special god or pantheon who look after it over the generations in return for worship, and that the nation will suffer or be destroyed if they forsake the relevant god/s.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  223. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    I agree with you in the narrow historical sense: Christianity helped expose backwards cultures to more literate, already Christianized ones at a faster rate. And Protestantism was superior to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy at promoting human capital accumulation (emphasis on individual salvation promoted literacy).

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence. Christians would have been the Pentecostals of their day.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    That said, wrt India, you need to adjust for average IQ and many other factors.

    I suspect that culture can probably affect genetic IQ. Ashkenazi Jews are an extreme example, but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability. Until fairly recently 100-150 years ago, depending on country) smarter Europeans had larger families. Rewards in pre-Christian tribal times as in modern tribal areas might have gone more to stronger and more daring or violent folk.

    When ancient Romans thought of pre-Christian Northern Europeans as brave and noble, but dim, they might not have been wrong. By the 16th century there might have been a different genetic profile for the people living in those lands. India’s Hinduism may contribute to its IQ profile by encouraging different traits in the various segregated castes (brilliant Brahmins, dim masses).

  224. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Unbelievably Jewish logic! Your logic is same as the one employed by the Jews, that if they would lose their religion they would lose their existence, did Persians disappear when Zoroastrianism withered away? Did Hellenes fade away from existence when Greek Pagan altars and cults were abandoned? Did Japanese stop being Japanese when they started to worship Buddha?
     
    I agree with and and think you misunderstood my point. Badhibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.” My point was simply that Europe and Russia in their greatness cannot be separated from their Christianity, they have been fused throughout their development.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Can Jewish greatness be separated from their religion? Would they still be intelligent and productive if they would convert to Christianity or Buddhism? Please I want to know your answer.

    Christianity is a great religion and has clearly been beneficial to most of its adherents, but it’s not the end point of history, Christ’s kingdom is not from this world, and as St. Augustine clearly stated in his De Civitate Dei, how Earthly kingdom with its material achievements and Heavenly Kingdom with its eternal life are two distinct realms, and Christian is first of all the citizen of the Heavenly Civitas, material things come and go, civilizations rise and fall, but Christ’s Kingdom is eternal, beyond time and place. I am a great fan and supporter of Christianity, though I don’t agree with every Christian viewpoint, or always understand their logic, but I believe that genuine Christians have good motivations and their hearts are pure, they do not mean harm for any man, as long as they are not attacked. My “dhimmitude” towards Christianity is so great that from my whole heart I would support if charter of UN or European constitution would begin by words, “Our laws are based on Christ’s teaching,” or something similar. Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised if St- Augustine would have debunked your logic as a heresy! Material gains as a proof of Christ’s greatness? Gold and glitter, like whore’s makeup as a proof of God’s greatness. Magna Mater’s cultists(Cybele) probably had quite blingy sanctuaries in the Carthage of the time of St. Augustine. What about the sense of tight knitted community, helping of the poor, marital fidelity, respect of elders?

    [MORE]

    There are strange parallels and similarities with the modern LBGTIQ+ cult and the cult of Cybele. When Rome started to decay the foreign cult of Great Mother or goddess Cybele grew in popularity, there were huge parades where his priests, the Galli, who were mutilated men, dressed in female clothes, danced ecstatically, shaked their limbs and so on. Romans of the Republic saw her cult as dangerous, and there was a law that prohibited Roman citizens to partake in her celebrations and rites, but later Romans got lax and such laws were not followed anymore. Clearly she is alive and well, dangerous as ever…

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Can Jewish greatness be separated from their religion? Would they still be intelligent and productive if they would convert to Christianity or Buddhism? Please I want to know your answer.
     
    The Jewish miracle of the last couple of centuries has two causes:

    1. For centuries they existed in a social niche that selected for higher intelligence. In some respects, similar to that of the "market minority" Chinese in southeastern Asia.

    2. Jews' existence in the Christian European milieu meant that their genius was not merely channeled into commercial success as in the case of Southeast Asian Cantonese, but with their integration into the rest of Europe, into the arts and sciences also.

    Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised if St- Augustine would have debunked your logic as a heresy! Material gains as a proof of Christ’s greatness? Gold and glitter, like whore’s makeup as a proof of God’s greatness.
     
    I agree with you 100%. I have already been clear to you, I do not view material success as "proof" or much less "purpose" of God's or Christ's greatness, rather it is a consequence or reflection of it, at least for the last 1500 years or so, in most places. Christianity provided its adherents with a certain view of the themselves, their world, and their place in it. And this happens to have enabled them to conquer their own natures, and then the world itself through technology and through politics. Even though conquest was not the point of it.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  225. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Bashibuzuk was the one using what you would call “Jewish logic.”
     
    I have used the traditional gentile logic where every human culture had the right, perhaps even the obligation to preserve and develop its ancestral spiritual inheritance. It is very unfortunate that today this logic has been abandoned by most Gentiles and is mostly kept among the Israelites. Christ with his message of "no Greek and Scythian " remaining when all become Christians was in fact the first globalist, which of course is natural for a son of poor emigrants growing up in a multinational and multicultural metropolis (Alexandria in first century AD). He was woke and his religion was a destructive cult directed against traditional cultural and spiritual identities of that period.

    Replies: @AP, @Coconuts

    There is a wonderful essay in Orthodox theologian Hart’s Atheist Delusions about this. But yes, Christ was revolutionary, He liberated mankind and this is reflected in the sheer brilliance, beauty, compassion and power of Christian civilization. It was creative, not destructive as in the case of wokeness. Slavic poles and crude Aztec pyramids alike, replaced by beautiful cathedrals. Cruel worship of strength replaced by love and mercy, yet resulting in strength the world had never before seen as the heirs and children if God took possession of the world not because they were motivated by greed (yes there was some of that too) but by love also.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    I have understood that you very much respect Oswald Spengler's philosophy?


    “Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”

    -Oswald Spengler

     

    What about now?

    Replies: @AP

  226. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Do you also believe Buddhism is alien for the non Indo- Europeans such as Tibetans, Chinese, Thais etc. who adopted it?
     
    Buddhism adapts to any given culture by integrating its spiritual traditions into its own. Christianity erases the native spiritual traditions. Both are universal, but one is more totalitarian. As I wrote above, Buddhism could easily integrate Christian spiritual practices and Christ himself. OTOH, Christianity cannot integrate Buddhadharma.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Japanese Kamis, Burmese Nats, Vedic Gods, Chinese Taoist Deities, Mongolian Tengris, Tibetan Spirits and so on and so on are part of our religion, and mostly without problems, except if those entities demand blood sacrifices, then its more complicated. Even some gods of Hellenic pantheon are part of our religion, like Herakles/Hercules.

    https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/150/abstract/heraklesvajrapani-companion-buddha

    His cult is well alive, he is one the most popular Bodhisattvas and Dharma protectors, though he is commonly known by his Sanskrit name Vajrapani. If Buddhism would have met with Slavic Paganism we would have incorporated their pantheon with ours, Slavic traditions and rites would still live on, even Iranian deities and demons still live with us, some are quite popular.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  227. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    There is a wonderful essay in Orthodox theologian Hart’s Atheist Delusions about this. But yes, Christ was revolutionary, He liberated mankind and this is reflected in the sheer brilliance, beauty, compassion and power of Christian civilization. It was creative, not destructive as in the case of wokeness. Slavic poles and crude Aztec pyramids alike, replaced by beautiful cathedrals. Cruel worship of strength replaced by love and mercy, yet resulting in strength the world had never before seen as the heirs and children if God took possession of the world not because they were motivated by greed (yes there was some of that too) but by love also.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I have understood that you very much respect Oswald Spengler’s philosophy?

    “Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”

    -Oswald Spengler

    What about now?

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    He had some good insights but I wouldn’t consider him to be infallible. I think he was an atheist. Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  228. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    I have understood that you very much respect Oswald Spengler's philosophy?


    “Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”

    -Oswald Spengler

     

    What about now?

    Replies: @AP

    He had some good insights but I wouldn’t consider him to be infallible. I think he was an atheist. Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.
     
    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism. And indeed the Protestant egalitarian Anabaptist violent sects of the Religious Wars era were directly derived from the reformist message of the Christian Gospels. This message was diluted and tamed into the Catholic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholicism, only to resurface under the form of the Münster Rebellion and the radical Levellers of the English Civil War.

    And when it was again suppressed (for it had to be suppressed for society to survive), it resurfaced again under the garb of utopian Masonic Socialism evolving into Communism and leading to the near annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church and disaffection with Roman Catholicism.

    Today the Cultural Marxism, derived from the early Bolshevik delusions, is used by the globalized elites to mind-kill the Western middle class. This dialectics of Christ and Antichrist is the end result of Christian teleology in which the World must be destroyed for the "Elect" to be saved.

    Knyaz' Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a "high" before going "down", the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: "you will know them by their fruits". The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet and somewhat indigestible for the Aryan mind. OTOH, our Aryan ancestors were not in a hurry to reform everything into oblivion. They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Below is a traditional Northern Russian embroidery used until the 1930ies, when the Communism banned it because it looked suspicious and smacked of "Fascism".

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/7266376/7266376_900.jpg

    This is the symbol of our ancestry for the last 7000 years, we should remember that and be proud of it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/4b/33/e24b33b38e2e6a72e86419a16abb13d9.jpg

    Until we reach the Sky and become Light itself!

    Replies: @AP

  229. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    He had some good insights but I wouldn’t consider him to be infallible. I think he was an atheist. Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.

    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism. And indeed the Protestant egalitarian Anabaptist violent sects of the Religious Wars era were directly derived from the reformist message of the Christian Gospels. This message was diluted and tamed into the Catholic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholicism, only to resurface under the form of the Münster Rebellion and the radical Levellers of the English Civil War.

    And when it was again suppressed (for it had to be suppressed for society to survive), it resurfaced again under the garb of utopian Masonic Socialism evolving into Communism and leading to the near annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church and disaffection with Roman Catholicism.

    Today the Cultural Marxism, derived from the early Bolshevik delusions, is used by the globalized elites to mind-kill the Western middle class. This dialectics of Christ and Antichrist is the end result of Christian teleology in which the World must be destroyed for the “Elect” to be saved.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet and somewhat indigestible for the Aryan mind. OTOH, our Aryan ancestors were not in a hurry to reform everything into oblivion. They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Below is a traditional Northern Russian embroidery used until the 1930ies, when the Communism banned it because it looked suspicious and smacked of “Fascism”.

    This is the symbol of our ancestry for the last 7000 years, we should remember that and be proud of it.

    Until we reach the Sky and become Light itself!

    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism
     
    Correct. Christianity, a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism, is great and an improvement over what came before, whereas Bolshevism, a heresy of Christianity, is evil. As evidenced by the effect of each on their adherents’ personal and sociocultural developments in morality, art, power.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet
     
    Archeological excavations tell us that pagan ancient Ukraine has a death rate by violence of approximately 20%. Even in the 1930s the Bolsheviks managed to kill “only” 12% of the population, through starvation and execution.

    So the downs of the heretical post or anti-Christians are perhaps comparable to the baseline living of our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    And indeed Sviatislav whom you liked, as a pagan Rus, probably spent a lot of time engaged in brutalising and killing pagan eastern Slavs and selling them as slaves to the Persians, as the pagan Rus did.

    They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.
     
    Slowly indeed. Not much to show after thousands of years, yet such a brilliant flowering under Christ, so soon after the adoption of Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  230. @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Ancient Greeks, not monotheistic Israelites, produced the most impressive flowing of scientific and artistic accomplishment prior to the Renaissance.
     
    Christianity > Judaism.

    If you go down this What If route, you also need to consider that Christianity was anti-intellectual for the first millennium of its existence
     
    Not really. Byzantium was a literate sophisticated society (this was inherited from pre-Christian times, I know, but Christianity did not get in the way) and adoption of Christianity brought widespread literacy to Rus. The Western barbarians, too, became intellectual under Christ. Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe’s human capital), then expand it.

    … but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.

    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn’t exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin



    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

     

    The same is basically true for all of the Roman empire. Even before Christianity. The science part anyway. Romans were obviously good at many things, in particular building infrastructure and creating a large functioning bureaucracy. But not really science. There was barely any mathematical progress in the Roman empire at all. Not a single Roman mathematician of note. Killing Archimedes was maybe their most significant achievement...

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin


    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn’t exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.
     

    Majority of Finns became nominally Christian in the 13th century, Lithuanians in the 15th century, so about one thousand years after Greeks and Italians. Though Swedish clergymen still complained in the 17th century that Estonians and Finns were Half-Pagan in their customs and beliefs.

    Estonians secretly worshiped Tharapita or local variation of Thor in the 16th century and Finns still had Pagan feasts for bear spirits in the 17th century. Similarly Lithuanians were only nominally Catholic in the 15th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharapita

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peijaiset

    , @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity)
     
    As had been noted, decline in intellectual production preceded Christianity. However there was no real decline in Byzantium. The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.). Beware Gibbons’ propaganda:

    https://medium.com/@christoss200/byzantine-philosophy-technology-and-medicine-4b160952970b

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

     

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  231. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    Bolshevism is obviously a Christian heresy, he was right here.
     
    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism. And indeed the Protestant egalitarian Anabaptist violent sects of the Religious Wars era were directly derived from the reformist message of the Christian Gospels. This message was diluted and tamed into the Catholic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholicism, only to resurface under the form of the Münster Rebellion and the radical Levellers of the English Civil War.

    And when it was again suppressed (for it had to be suppressed for society to survive), it resurfaced again under the garb of utopian Masonic Socialism evolving into Communism and leading to the near annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church and disaffection with Roman Catholicism.

    Today the Cultural Marxism, derived from the early Bolshevik delusions, is used by the globalized elites to mind-kill the Western middle class. This dialectics of Christ and Antichrist is the end result of Christian teleology in which the World must be destroyed for the "Elect" to be saved.

    Knyaz' Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a "high" before going "down", the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: "you will know them by their fruits". The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet and somewhat indigestible for the Aryan mind. OTOH, our Aryan ancestors were not in a hurry to reform everything into oblivion. They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Below is a traditional Northern Russian embroidery used until the 1930ies, when the Communism banned it because it looked suspicious and smacked of "Fascism".

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matveychev_oleg/27303223/7266376/7266376_900.jpg

    This is the symbol of our ancestry for the last 7000 years, we should remember that and be proud of it.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/4b/33/e24b33b38e2e6a72e86419a16abb13d9.jpg

    Until we reach the Sky and become Light itself!

    Replies: @AP

    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism

    Correct. Christianity, a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism, is great and an improvement over what came before, whereas Bolshevism, a heresy of Christianity, is evil. As evidenced by the effect of each on their adherents’ personal and sociocultural developments in morality, art, power.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet

    Archeological excavations tell us that pagan ancient Ukraine has a death rate by violence of approximately 20%. Even in the 1930s the Bolsheviks managed to kill “only” 12% of the population, through starvation and execution.

    So the downs of the heretical post or anti-Christians are perhaps comparable to the baseline living of our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    And indeed Sviatislav whom you liked, as a pagan Rus, probably spent a lot of time engaged in brutalising and killing pagan eastern Slavs and selling them as slaves to the Persians, as the pagan Rus did.

    They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.

    Slowly indeed. Not much to show after thousands of years, yet such a brilliant flowering under Christ, so soon after the adoption of Christianity.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.
     
    One should never lack respect to one's ancestors. Because our descendants will act towards us as we act towards our ancestors. Just a word of caution...

    Replies: @AP

  232. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I'm not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).


    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.
     
    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe's human capital), then expand it.

    ... but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.
     
    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn't exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @AltanBakshi, @AP

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

    The same is basically true for all of the Roman empire. Even before Christianity. The science part anyway. Romans were obviously good at many things, in particular building infrastructure and creating a large functioning bureaucracy. But not really science. There was barely any mathematical progress in the Roman empire at all. Not a single Roman mathematician of note. Killing Archimedes was maybe their most significant achievement…

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword

    Correct.

    I speculated what might explain it (apart from the easy way out of positing very high ancient Greek IQs) here: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ancient-greeks-not-geniuses/

    But probably Christianity made no difference in making the Byzantine-era Greeks either more or less creative than they would have been. (Certainly the bouts of iconoclasm couldn't have been good for the visual arts).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Shortsword

  233. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Christianity is itself a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism
     
    Correct. Christianity, a Hellenistic syncretic heresy of Judaism, is great and an improvement over what came before, whereas Bolshevism, a heresy of Christianity, is evil. As evidenced by the effect of each on their adherents’ personal and sociocultural developments in morality, art, power.

    Knyaz’ Stanislav was right: this is indeed sheer foolishness. And just like a bipolar person experiences a “high” before going “down”, the European Civilization, inoculated with this dialectical mind-warping theological system has experienced a cultural boom leading to its inevitable bust.

    Christ said that: “you will know them by their fruits”. The fruits of Christendom are bittersweet
     
    Archeological excavations tell us that pagan ancient Ukraine has a death rate by violence of approximately 20%. Even in the 1930s the Bolsheviks managed to kill “only” 12% of the population, through starvation and execution.

    So the downs of the heretical post or anti-Christians are perhaps comparable to the baseline living of our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    And indeed Sviatislav whom you liked, as a pagan Rus, probably spent a lot of time engaged in brutalising and killing pagan eastern Slavs and selling them as slaves to the Persians, as the pagan Rus did.

    They accumulated wisdom that lead to survival of their kin and respect for their ancestors, they grew their fruits slowly from well watered native roots. And the fruits produced by their Tree of Life would have been marvelous, if not for the Christian axe cutting the Tree itself and modern World burning it into ashes.
     
    Slowly indeed. Not much to show after thousands of years, yet such a brilliant flowering under Christ, so soon after the adoption of Christianity.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.

    One should never lack respect to one’s ancestors. Because our descendants will act towards us as we act towards our ancestors. Just a word of caution…

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    One should never lack respect to one’s ancestors
     
    They did the best they could with what they had. But objectively they were violent and primitive people. When given the opportunity to abandon the old ways for something better, they did so.

    How do you feel about our ancestors who turned their back on the pagan traditions and embraced Christ?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  234. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I'm not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).


    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.
     
    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe's human capital), then expand it.

    ... but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.
     
    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn't exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @AltanBakshi, @AP

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn’t exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Majority of Finns became nominally Christian in the 13th century, Lithuanians in the 15th century, so about one thousand years after Greeks and Italians. Though Swedish clergymen still complained in the 17th century that Estonians and Finns were Half-Pagan in their customs and beliefs.

    Estonians secretly worshiped Tharapita or local variation of Thor in the 16th century and Finns still had Pagan feasts for bear spirits in the 17th century. Similarly Lithuanians were only nominally Catholic in the 15th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharapita

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peijaiset

  235. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    our pre-Christian savage pagans ancestors.
     
    One should never lack respect to one's ancestors. Because our descendants will act towards us as we act towards our ancestors. Just a word of caution...

    Replies: @AP

    One should never lack respect to one’s ancestors

    They did the best they could with what they had. But objectively they were violent and primitive people. When given the opportunity to abandon the old ways for something better, they did so.

    How do you feel about our ancestors who turned their back on the pagan traditions and embraced Christ?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP


    How do you feel about our ancestors who turned their back on the pagan traditions and embraced Christ?
     
    I believe they didn't really have a choice.

    The Pagan religious traditions are fragile; Cesar wrote about the Druids having to learn all their scripture by heart and spending some 12 years studying before becoming recognized as equals by the other priests. Also all pagan religions are initiatic, they have layers of understanding, from the lower popular fertility rites and mythology to the higher philosophical concepts.

    Therefore, once the high priesthood exterminated and centers of learning destroyed, there is not much they could do. And people were still executed in the twelfth century for belonging to the Old Ways, so there was systematic violence applied for many generations. Once Arkona lost to the Catholic crusaders, it was game over for the Slavic Paganism, although I wouldn't be surprised if Lithuanian Paganism was basically a variation on the same theme.

    I have people who were directly involved with religious matters, on both my mother's and my father's side, some being part of Orthodox clergy. The link with strong religious affiliation was lost for different reasons around the mid - nineteenth century. As long as I know, on my father's side they were respected and well known in their community, so I believe they did good things. Nothing I would be ashamed of.

    On my mother's side some got involved with the Narodniki, and one was even sent to Siberia for killing an Ouriadnik (police officer) during some terrorist act in the Kursk gubernia. This is something I deeply regret. But of course there is nothing I can do about it. So basically, I think they did their best and I am mainly proud of them, except for the one who committed a murder and disappeared in the Siberian katorga.

    In general, I wish our ancestors would have preserved more of our mythology and ancestral beliefs, just like Islanders and Finns did. At least we would know today what was the spiritual outlook of our people. Now all we have is partial and dubious reconstructions.

    Replies: @AP

  236. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Well, I agree that Christian conversion was good for primitive peoples outside the Roman Empire because it exposed them to advanced literate cultures faster and more intensely.

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I'm not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).


    Modern Pentecostals and similar heretics in their dismissal of science are not traditional Christians.
     
    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    My own guess FWIW was that Christianity was deeply destructive until around 6C, then increasingly turning positive, first helping preserve what remained of post-Roman civilization (thanks in large part to being a reservoir for what remained of Europe's human capital), then expand it.

    ... but the cultural changes produced by Christianity may have selected for greater success by people with increased inherent abstract thinking ability.
     
    Plausible. Ed Dutton and Michael Woodley have some interesting ideas about the uniquely pro-eugenic effects of Christianity.

    OTOH, Finland, which Christianized last in Europe (along with Lithuania), doesn't exactly have a low IQ.

    OTOH OTOH, not likely that differences of a mere few hundred years would have made a cardinal difference.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @AltanBakshi, @AP

    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity)

    As had been noted, decline in intellectual production preceded Christianity. However there was no real decline in Byzantium. The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.). Beware Gibbons’ propaganda:

    https://medium.com/@christoss200/byzantine-philosophy-technology-and-medicine-4b160952970b

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP


    The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.).
     
    More impressive than Western Europe until c.1100.

    But much less impressive than either China technologically, or the Muslim world (so far as science is concerned - disproportionately Persian) scientifically.

    The latter had higher populations, in fairness, but relative to what those same people had done 1,000-1,500 years previously, it was quite banal.

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:
     
    Interesting. I'll take a look into that.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @AP

  237. @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin



    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity).

     

    The same is basically true for all of the Roman empire. Even before Christianity. The science part anyway. Romans were obviously good at many things, in particular building infrastructure and creating a large functioning bureaucracy. But not really science. There was barely any mathematical progress in the Roman empire at all. Not a single Roman mathematician of note. Killing Archimedes was maybe their most significant achievement...

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Correct.

    I speculated what might explain it (apart from the easy way out of positing very high ancient Greek IQs) here: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ancient-greeks-not-geniuses/

    But probably Christianity made no difference in making the Byzantine-era Greeks either more or less creative than they would have been. (Certainly the bouts of iconoclasm couldn’t have been good for the visual arts).

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe my question will sound stupid from a Eurocentric(narrow-minded) point of view, but how Classical Greek achievements were any greater than Indian or Chinese achievements of the same era? They too had their sceptics, cynics, atomists, materialists, epicureans, empiricists, idealists, as well great authors and dramatists. In many areas they did go further than Greeks, ancient Indians were arguably better in mathematics, medicine and linguistics than Greeks.

    I know that this will sound like blasphemy for some here. But narrow minded chauvinism was what led to destruction of Classical Chinese culture, similarly if European rightists will just look back and think that their culture was best in everything, they will lose their potential to learn from others and adapt to changes.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This can't be explained by MUH IQ.

    Modern science comes from the idea of being able to model the real world with mathematics. Romans (and everyone else at the time) just didn't think this way. They were practical and mostly did incremental improvements on what has been proven to work.

    The scientific revolution created a new mindset where people realized they could come up with inventions on paper and make computations to get a rough idea if it will work or not. It wasn't until Principia that people got a good understanding of the natural laws but the scientific revolution was well underway before that.

    But a lot of this is by happenstance. There could've been a scientific revolution in the Roman empire. It's pretty easy to imagine an alternative timeline where that did happen and modern level of science and technology came into existence at least a millennium earlier. Just imagine if the society in the Roman empire had taken on a more scientific mindset together with mass education.

    But the Roman empire just seems to have had a society which wasn't conducive to scientific progress.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  238. @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    The Byzantine Empire was orders of magnitude less scientifically and culturally productive than Ancient Greece (though I’m not sure to what extent if any that can be attributed to Christianity)
     
    As had been noted, decline in intellectual production preceded Christianity. However there was no real decline in Byzantium. The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.). Beware Gibbons’ propaganda:

    https://medium.com/@christoss200/byzantine-philosophy-technology-and-medicine-4b160952970b

    5C Pentecostals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

    Early Christians were the original Bioleninists, in modern NRx parlance.

     

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    The people were literate, they engaged in intellectual arguments (often of a theological nature), and technology did progress significantly (invention of Greek Fire and flamethrowers, new architectural technique enabling the creation of the massive dome of Hagia Sophia, hand trebuchets, etc.).

    More impressive than Western Europe until c.1100.

    But much less impressive than either China technologically, or the Muslim world (so far as science is concerned – disproportionately Persian) scientifically.

    The latter had higher populations, in fairness, but relative to what those same people had done 1,000-1,500 years previously, it was quite banal.

    A lot of the stories about Christians in Alexandria were 18th century myths:

    Interesting. I’ll take a look into that.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This (agnostic) guy is good on myths relating to Hypatia:

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/07/the-great-myths-9-hypatia-of-alexandria/

    , @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin


    But much less impressive than either China technologically, or the Muslim world (so far as science is concerned – disproportionately Persian) scientifically.
     
    You wrote a nice article comparing Byzantine to Western intellectual production:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/intellectual-production-in-the-byzantine-empire/

    Byzantium had a much smaller population than the Muslim world, and was basically under siege for much of its history. In what ways was it so far behind technologically though? One would imagine that a great disparity would have resulted in conquest by the Arabs.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  239. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword

    Correct.

    I speculated what might explain it (apart from the easy way out of positing very high ancient Greek IQs) here: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ancient-greeks-not-geniuses/

    But probably Christianity made no difference in making the Byzantine-era Greeks either more or less creative than they would have been. (Certainly the bouts of iconoclasm couldn't have been good for the visual arts).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Shortsword

    Maybe my question will sound stupid from a Eurocentric(narrow-minded) point of view, but how Classical Greek achievements were any greater than Indian or Chinese achievements of the same era? They too had their sceptics, cynics, atomists, materialists, epicureans, empiricists, idealists, as well great authors and dramatists. In many areas they did go further than Greeks, ancient Indians were arguably better in mathematics, medicine and linguistics than Greeks.

    I know that this will sound like blasphemy for some here. But narrow minded chauvinism was what led to destruction of Classical Chinese culture, similarly if European rightists will just look back and think that their culture was best in everything, they will lose their potential to learn from others and adapt to changes.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • R