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Last Stand in Montenegro
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Underreported in the Western media, in the past few weeks there have been massive protests in Montenegro, involving as many as 150,000 people (that is, a quarter of its population).

What are they protesting about? Late last December, the Montenegrin parliament approved an EU-supported law allowing the state to seize church property in the absence of documents proving ownership from before 1918, when Montenegro joined the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (the predecessor of Yugoslavia). This Orwellian-named “Law on Religious Freedom is aimed against the Serbian Orthodox Church, which owns dozens of churches in Montenegro, many of them dating back to the Middle Ages, and which continues to be the church of identification for 70% of Montenegro’s Eastern Orthodox community. The primary beneficiary would be the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, which is considered schismatic in the wider Orthodox world (even so far as Istanbul Bart is concerned – for now, anyway).

Montenegrins are one of the fakest nationalities on the planet. In the words of one friend, Montenegro “is a Serbian Belarus, except imagine that 50% of Moscow comes from Belarus 3 generations back.” The movement to join Serbia in 1918 was Serbian nationalist to its core, even though Montenegro’s current elites now portray it as a Serbian “occupation.” Their separate nationality identity was created under Tito, which accelerated in the 1990s as the local nomenklatura – enabled by Milosevic’s sovok insistence on maintaining the Yugoslav federal structure – switched skins from Yugoslav federalism to local nationalism. Even today, the numbers of self-identifying “Montenegrins” fluctuates from census to census depending on the current level of svidomist propaganda that they are subjected to.

Incidentally, Montenegro has been de facto ruled by a guy called Milo Đukanović since 1989. The son of an apparatchik and protege of Milosevic, he began as pro-Serb, pro-Russian, and anti-NATO before flip flopping on all those stances. So, your typical post-commie opportunist. He has amassed a huge fortune despite having spent his entire life in politics, has brutally quelled protests against his authoritarian rule, boasted of disregarding public opinion (e.g. joining NATO without a referendum despite 72% of Montenegrin citizens wanting one), and pulled stunts like the absurdly fake Russian assassination plot to remain in power. Meanwhile, he remains the West’s best friend, who studiously avoid mentioning his democratist credentials so long as he maintains the correct geopolitical course (anti-Serb, anti-Russian).

These protests may be Serbia’s last chance to keep alive the hope of one day reversing the violent fracturing of their nation. But with history being rewritten to portray Montenegro as its own autochthonous civilization descended from the Principality of Duklja, a Montenegrin “language” being promoted that is indistinguishable from Serbo-Croatian apart from the usage of the Latin alphabet, intense integration into Western economic and security structures, the Atlanticist orientations of the people around Đukanović, the propaganda dominance of Montenegrin svidomists and their Muslim and Albanian allies (who constitute 20% of the Montenegrin population), the Serbian Orthodox Church is the last remaining barrier to Montenegro permanently drifting away from Serbia. They are Montenegro’s last faithful ones.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Color Revolution, Orthodoxy, Serbia 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  2. There might have been some regional identity going back to the medieval period (as in literally any other province of any other country), but its identity was obviously Serb hundred years ago. And I’d say probably thirty years ago as well.

  3. Matt Forney says: • Website

    The real question isn’t whether Montenegrins, Ukrainians, Belarusians etc. constitute nations of their own. If being “fake and gay” is the sole determinant of whether a nation should be allowed to be independent, Switzerland and Belgium should have been carved up by their neighbors ages ago. If anything, the narcissism of small differences makes it more difficult to integrate these small countries with their culturally similar neighbors. Can anyone not from the Balkans tell a Serb and a Croat apart, for example? For that matter, is there really a huge difference between the English and the Irish? Both are alcoholic socialists who live on rainy, dreary islands, eat a lot of fish, and speak the same language.

    The question you should be asking is if these “fake and gay” countries are viable politically and economically. Turkey was a “fake and gay” country by anyone’s metric a century ago: Atatürk sowed together a “Turkish” identity out of the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, including reclassifying Kurds as “Mountain Turks,” and yet Turkey has held together ever since. Atatürk himself was barely Turkish; he was Albanian (and according to some sources, Jewish).

    I don’t know much about Montenegro, but everything Anatoly has written here and what I already know about it suggests it can’t survive—at least for the moment—without being propped up by an external power (the U.S./NATO/E.U.). It’s poor, has a small population, and lacks resources beyond sea access. The only reason it was allowed to join NATO was to deny Russia a warm-water port. From a political science perspective, it is not viable as an independent state.

    Thing is, as the Turkish example shows, “fake and gay” countries can eventually become viable if the leadership makes the right decisions. Beyond Montenegro persecuting the Serbian Orthodox Church, they’re helped by the fact that Serbia is singularly uninterested in keeping Montenegro in the fold due to its extreme quisling government, with a lesbian prime minister and E.U. accession coming in 2025.

    Assuming current trends hold (which, to be fair, they rarely do), in 50-75 years, Russian revanchists fantasizing about the return of Ukraine—which by then will be largely Ukrainized due to higher birthrates in the west, higher emigration in the east, and draconian anti-Russian government policies—will sound as absurd and unrealistic as Greeks fantasizing about reclaiming Constantinople.

    If the Serbs weren’t so cucked, they could try a smaller version of what Russia is doing with Ukraine right now: hand out passports freely to the Montenegrins who oppose Western integration. Then again, Serbia is a lot poorer and less appealing to Montenegrins than Russia is to Ukrainians (I’ve been to Belgrade; it’s a dump), so that approach might have limited returns.

  4. There are really one two kinds of Orthodox Balkan Slavs, Bulgarians and Serbs.

    Proof: Zograf and Hilandar.

    There’s an easy litmus test to distinguish the two types. Serbs have the Slava, Bulgarians don’t. Montenegrins are just Serbs, plain and simple, while on Macedonians you can apply the litmus test.

  5. @Matt Forney

    If being “fake and gay” is the sole determinant of whether a nation should be allowed to be independent, Switzerland and Belgium should have been carved up by their neighbors ages ago.

    The Swiss German are their own little ethnicity, with their own language and peculiar customs. They happened to occupy some French and Italian clay over the centuries, but the core is still Swiss Germanic.

    As to Belgium – it has indeed been carved up many times, and nominally exists to this day because of the EU.

  6. iffen says:

    From what I have learned here and elsewhere, if this weakens “the Serbs”, it is a good thing.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
    , @Elena 2
  7. I was under the impression that Montenegro is an older nation than Serbia, and if one nation is “fake” it’s probably Serbia. Also, Montenegrins are apparently more Ilyrian racially and less Slavic.

    Sounds like a similar question to whether the Scots are just an extension of English people or an entirely separate people.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
    , @Elena 2
  8. Mr.Bean says:
    @iffen

    Why “the Serbs” in quotation marks?
    Why is ti good? MNE is obviously a fake nation, probably the most fake one in Europe.
    Isn’t it a disingenuous thing to support the unification of other nations, but not the Serb one?

    • Replies: @iffen
  9. Mr.Bean says:
    @Europe Europa

    Serbia’s first mentions in the Balkans: 7th century, ruled by several dynasties predating Nemanjich dynasty, like the Vlastimirovich, Vojislavljevich and Vukanovich dynasties.
    Montenegro’s first mention: late 15th century, and exclusively as a Serbian territory/state.
    Fun fact. The are about 20 toponyms named “Montenegro(Црна Гора)” throughout Serbian lands.

    “Also, Montenegrins are apparently more Ilyrian racially and less Slavic.” – Nonsense, all south Slavs are a mix of “Illyrians(vague term itself)” and Slavs and Greeks. Montenegrins are in every objective sense ethnic Serbs. In linguistic/dialectical sense(more so than Belgrade for example), culturally, historically and in every other way.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  10. Mitleser says:
    @Matt Forney

    If being “fake and gay” is the sole determinant of whether a nation should be allowed to be independent, Switzerland and Belgium should have been carved up by their neighbors ages ago.

    But that would require their neighbours to agree who gets what and they failed do that.
    Switzerland is not fake and gay as the Swiss found a niche which worked out for them.
    On the other hand, Belgium is fake and gay.
    Most of their parties are either Flemish or French, their regional parliaments have a say in Belgium’s foreign policy…
    If not for Belgium being the core territory of the EU whose elite wants stability, it would have fallen apart like other multi-national countries without dominant nations.

  11. Mr.Bean says:
    @Matt Forney

    Thing is, Montenegrins don’t even have a dialect of their own, nothing to base their identity upon. They speak pure Serbian language, like the Serbs in South-Western Serbia, or Serbs in B&H and Croatia. It’s the most artificial identity in Europe.

    And yes, it cannot survive, it actually has 25% non-Orthodox population and the Orthodox population is divided among itself, on regional, ideological, confessional, tribal and quasi-ethnic grounds. It’s probably gonna get divided among Serbia and Albania or simply get annexed by Serbia at the first opportune moment(weakening of NATO grip on the region).

    Also, Belgrade is attractive enough simply by it’s size to Montnegrins, but it really doesn’t have to be. Serbs in B&H live better than Serbs in Serbia and are identical to Serbs in MNE, yet they predominantly want unification with Serbia. people aren’t simply motivated by economic or material motives.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  12. Kinez says:

    All the other issues are a distraction in this situation. The situation with the “Law on Religious Freedom” is very simple:

    1. It provides for the expropriation of Orthodox Church properties (i.e. mainly churches and monasteries), of which there are 600+ (not dozens). Other religious communities (the Roman Catholic Church, the Islamic community) are not affected as the state has signed special agreements with them.

    2. It was voted on in the middle of the night in late December, just after almost a quarter of members of parliament were arrested, in the parliament itself. (I think 17-18 out of 81 total members).

    3. Since then, there have been protests twice a week in cities and towns all around Montenegro, the largest of which have attracted ~250,000 participants. For context, as of the 2011 census the entire population is 620,000.

    4. The protests have been completely ignored by the Western press, which is of course not surprising to anyone. “NATO’s newest member state, an EU candidate country, 30-40% of the entire population peacefully protesting for weeks on end against a law voted on after special police units arrested almost 1/4 of the members of parliament, in the parliament building itself. No, this is not a story worthy of any attention whatsoever.”

    A few videos of various protests / gatherings around Montenegro:

    [MORE]

  13. Znzn says:

    Any suggestions as to how to prevent your nationalist parties from being cucked like in Poland? Turning yourself into North Korea seems to be an example of a cure being worse than the disease, and if that happens all your cognitive elite and young will flee to the globohomo West, thus making it self defeating.

    • Replies: @216
  14. Znzn says:

    Any opinion polls for support by age?

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  15. iffen says:
    @Mr.Bean

    Why “the Serbs” in quotation marks?

    I wanted to make clear that I wasn’t talking about all Serbs.

    Why is ti good?

    They seem to have a great deal of difficulty with dealing with their nationalism without getting a lot of people killed. Admittedly this is a judgement call, and they are probably not even the worst offenders.

    Isn’t it a disingenuous thing to support the unification of other nations, but not the Serb one?

    My “support” for unification of states other than the US is paper thin.

  16. songbird says:

    Montenegro is led by a lesbian now?

    Wow, for all their fearsome resistance to the Turks, when they were still tribes (the last in Europe), it is amazing how quickly they fell to globohomo, when the tribes were abolished.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  17. @Matt Forney

    The real question isn’t whether Montenegrins, Ukrainians, Belarusians etc. constitute nations of their own.

    If nationalism is good, why is creating more nations bad?

    The more, the merrier! Let a hundred flowers bloom!

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  18. @songbird

    No, it’s even worse, Serbia is.

    • Agree: songbird
  19. SteveK9 says:

    I know nothing of Serbia, Montenegro or the Balkans, but I am curious as to why the military would continue to support a government, where half the people are out in the streets protesting.

    • Replies: @216
  20. peterAUS says:
    @Mr.Bean

    You appear to know about the region.
    Not quite sure about

    …Thing is, Montenegrins don’t even have a dialect of their own…

    My impression they do have it. Anyway, not important at the moment. I would simply like to ask a question if I may.
    I’ve been watching this thing and even communicating with some Serbs around here and over there.
    ONE thing appears….weird (for a lack of better word). Maybe you can help (or anyone in the know here; not that I expect many, mind you).

    It’s obvious that the Serbs have been at the receiving end of the “globo-homo” paradigm since the fall of the Wall. Most of Serbs who do think know it.
    Now, the puzzling thing. For all that they blame Vatican, Germany and Anglo-Saxon world (Britain and US in particular). Not ONE word about “them” (I guess on this Website no need to explain who “those” are). Not one……….

    Would you have an opinion why is that?

    Two options:
    Uncomfortable-Serbs simply can’t do it, probably for historical reasons, WW2 in particular.
    Sort of comfortable-Serbs do know it but assume/feel/hope that antagonizing “them” on top of all shit they’ve been getting simply wouldn’t be a good idea.

    My take:70/30 former/later. Or, Jasenovac trauma simply lobotomized even the smartest of them.
    The only Serb who, apparently, can spell “them” is Srdja Trifkovic (and even he is very careful…).

    Anyway, thoughts/opinions?

  21. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Matt Forney

    I don’t know much about Montenegro, but everything Anatoly has written here and what I already know about it suggests it can’t survive—at least for the moment—without being propped up by an external power (the U.S./NATO/E.U.). It’s poor, has a small population, and lacks resources beyond sea access. The only reason it was allowed to join NATO was to deny Russia a warm-water port. From a political science perspective, it is not viable as an independent state.

    Montenegro by itself might not be that viable, but the goal is presumably to make Montenegro a part of a huge Western bloc–hence the goal of both EU and NATO accession for Montenegro.

  22. Mr. XYZ says:

    Anatoly, which other countries do you consider to be fake and gay? I want a full list, please!

    So far, I’m thinking of:

    -Ukraine and Belarus (pozzed Russians)
    -Austria (pozzed Germans)
    -Macedonia (pozzed Bulgarians)
    -Belgium (pozzed French and Dutch)
    -Montenegro (pozzed Serbs)
    -Kosovo (pozzed Albanians)
    -Laos (pozzed Thais)
    -Taiwan (pozzed Chinese)
    -South Korea (pozzed Koreans)
    -South Vietnam in the past (pozzed Vietnamese)
    -Kyrgyz (pozzed and possibly duller Kazakhs)

    Who else is there that meets this criteria, though?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Matra
  23. Svevlad says:

    Actually, a day or so ago the protests numbered like 295 thousand

    Basically half of the population

    • Agree: Denis
  24. Mr. Hack says:

    Nobody ever seems to mention the “Bosnians” nor the “Herzegovinians” here at this blog? Being a die-hard Svidomy, I’m usually more open-minded to the “fake country” syndrome than the average scion of pure Rus genetic structure inhabiting this blogsite. But if there’s anyway to entice sympathy for ones cause, it has to start with promoting ones culinary traditions.

    And that certainly wasn’t the case for me Friday night as I took a friend of mine out for dinner at the local Bosnian restaurant. What a huge disappointment. $35 for two plates of the most listless and uninspiring cabbage rolls that one can imagine, drizzled atop with a flavorless sauce that looked like something made from brown shoe polish. The “Bosnian salad” that was recommended to us by our attendant, was cabbage yanked out of a tin can, along with some equally dismal peppers (Yuck!). The only part of the dinner that was somewhat tasty was some fresh flatbread. Desert was the ubiquitous Balkan bakhlava with hot tea, that was next to impossible to procure. Needless to say, I’ll never return, and my first encounter with Bosnian culture was a big disaster. Oh, and did I mention how lousy the service was? 🙁

    • Replies: @AP
  25. @Mr.Bean

    England existed before Scotland if we go back centuries, and Scotland is arguably an offshoot of England in the way Montenegro is of Serbia, but few would try to argue that Scots today are really English people.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  26. Denis says:

    Like many Serbs, my ancestors on both sides of my family come from Montenegro. On my fathers side, they came from one of the highland tribes, near the borderland between Montenegro, Rashka, and Metohija. After urbanizing into Pec, violence by the local Albanians (this is back when it was still nominally part of the Ottoman empire) forced them to move to Belgrad. I would guess that most Serbs can trace at least a part of their ancestry back to the Montenegrin tribes, which still exist, in a sense.

    It’s impossible to overstate our connection to that land, and it’s impossible to overstate how excruciating it is to see this jumped-up mafioso destroying it. Some people here have compared Montenegro to Belarus and Ukraine, but that is not accurate, because in those cases there are actually a number of people who identify as non-Russians, even if they are disproportionately common among diaspora nationalists. Apart from myself and my relatives, I have met plenty of Montenegrins who live there currently, or who recently emigrated. Not a single one of them would disavow being a Serb, and all of them detest the gangster Djukanovic. These are not passing acquaintances, but close family friends, including a godfather. The idea of a Montenegrin identity that excludes Serbdom is blatantly astroturfed and serves primarily to allow Djukanovic to continue running the place like his personal fiefdom.

    As a Montenegrin and a Serb, thank you sincerely, Anatoly, for highlighting these protests. If it were not for alternative media like your blog, there would probably be little, if any, awareness of this at all in the anglosphere. By drawing attention to these massive protests and bringing them to a wider audience, you are doing us a great favour, and I hope I’ll get to personally repay you for it someday.

    • Agree: Mr.Bean
    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  27. @Denis

    If Montenegro is so unquestionably Serbian then why did they vote for independence, unless you’re suggesting that the referendum was rigged?

    Sometimes different national identities develop from a common nationality, that just happens even if the two nationalities are still closely related, especially in cases of geographical isolation over a long period of time. English and Scots seems a similar case. Both are English speaking, Protestant people who live on the same island. Logically why would anyone say that the English and Scots were different people, it makes no real sense and yet it is almost universally accepted that the English and Scots are totally separate people.

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Denis
    , @Korenchkin
  28. Denis says:
    @Europe Europa

    If Montenegro is so unquestionably Serbian then why did they vote for independence, unless you’re suggesting that the referendum was rigged?

    There were several factors at work, and vote-rigging was one of them.

    Additionally, more than a fifth of Montenegro is Albanian and ethnic Muslim, peoples who have no affinity for Serbs. Compare to Crimea, where the Tatars are (supposedly) favourable to Ukraine, despite not being Ukrainians, because they were anti-Russian.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  29. Denis says:
    @Europe Europa

    Sometimes different national identities develop from a common nationality, that just happens even if the two nationalities are still closely related, especially in cases of geographical isolation over a long period of time. English and Scots seems a similar case. Both are English speaking, Protestant people who live on the same island. Logically why would anyone say that the English and Scots were different people, it makes no real sense and yet it is almost universally accepted that the English and Scots are totally separate people.

    Am I missing something? England and Scotland are within a single sovereign country, unlike Serbia and Montenegro.

    Not that there aren’t other flaws with this analogy, but this is a particularly glaring one.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @Mr. XYZ
  30. @Denis

    They are, but much of the Scottish elite heavily promote independence. The last independence referendum failed but the Scottish parliament (established in 1999) is trying to force another vote through. Their logic seems to be keep demanding referendums until they get their result, which is corruption in itself.

    I use Scotland as a parallel with Montenegro because I think Scotland could quite possibly be another Montenegro situation within the next 10-15 years. Also, the Scottish independence movement is clearly involved in heavy political manipulation and is trying to mould the will of Scottish people rather than reflecting what they actually believe in.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  31. @peterAUS

    Maybe Serbs subconsciously or secretly hope that the Jews will back them in solving the Muslim Question the way they solve the Palestinian one. Little do they know that Jews reserve such solutions only for themselves as they are so so special – God’s chosen people, and will condemn anyone else trying to copy their privileged methods.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @peterAUS
  32. @Commentator Mike

    The Apartheid government in South Africa hoped to achieve similar results by pandering to Israel/Jews, because they saw themselves and Israel as having a shared issue.

    All they got in return was the Jews backing the ANC, violently overthrowing Apartheid and handing the country to the blacks who quickly made whites second class citizens. Serbs would not be wise to go down the same route thinking that the Jews are going to help them solve their problems.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @216
  33. @Europe Europa

    Scotland developed statehood and a national identity distinct from that of the English more than a millennium ago. Its borders c.1000 AD are recognizable today.

    As such, there can be no comparison with the Ukraine or Belarus, let alone Montenegro.

    If one does want to find a Russian analogue, I would suggest Tatarstan (which used to be the Khanate of Kazan, which is in turn descended from Volga Bulgaria).

  34. @Matt Forney

    Belgium exists as a useful DMZ between the historical fault line/ intersection of the UK, the Germanic and the Franco-Latin world.
    Pretty much every major battle in European history, from Rome to Waterloo to WW1 and 2 are literally walking distance. You can easily cycle from agincourt to Waterloo.
    By internationally creating a small, purposefully gelded state in the center of the Venn diagram overlap you add stability to the European system

  35. @Anatoly Karlin

    Much more than that. See:Hadrians Wall. England had Roman Rule, (Northern England and) Scotland didn’t

  36. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Denis

    There were several factors at work, and vote-rigging was one of them.

    The EU recognized the results of the 2006 Montenegrin independence referendum in spite of this alleged vote-rigging? Did this mean nothing to them? Or are claims of vote-rigging in this referendum overblown?

    FWIW, the pro-independence side just barely hit 55% in this 2006 referendum (per an agreement, a 55% pro-independence vote was necessary for independence rather than a “mere” 50.01% pro-independence vote). If someone would have actually rigged this vote, one would think that they would have provided for a bit more margin of error, no?

    • Replies: @Denis
  37. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Denis

    45% of Scots supported independence in 2014–as did 56% of Montenegrins in 2006. The pro-independence side might have even more support than that in Scotland right now due to Brexit and BoJo. So, in a decade or two, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Scotland in a position comparable to that of Montenegro back in 2006.

  38. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe a more comparable analogy to Scotland would be Poland if Russia would have actually been able to keep control of it (directly; not as a mere puppet state) up to the present-day? In such a scenario, I would presume that Poland would have had an extremely strong separatist movement right now comparable to that of Scotland in real life.

    Like Scots and the English, Poles and Russians are two relatively closely related peoples who nevertheless had over a millennium of largely separate histories.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Europe Europa
  39. 216 says: • Website
    @Znzn

    Block anyone that graduated from a US Ivy or Oxbridge. Increase academic/military cooperation with China.

  40. 216 says: • Website
    @SteveK9

    How NATO relationships work is outside of my experience.

    That said, during the recent protests/insurrection against the Virginia gun ban; the commander of the National Guard (reserve army nominally under the Governor) gave vague statements that they would not cooperate with a gun confiscation.

    It was almost as shocking as when the Joint Chiefs issued a coup threat to Trump in reaction to the Charlottesville riots.

  41. 216 says: • Website
    @Europe Europa

    The influence of Sweden and the other Scandinavians was arguably more influential in the triumph of the ANC. At one point the ANC leadership was exiled from the country and entirely dependent on foreign patronage. For most of the 1980s-90s they were engaged in a near-civil war with other black groups accused of being collaborators.

    More significant than Israel, the overthrow of the Shah was the beginning of the end for the National Party. The loss of the oil supply caused major economic and military headaches.

    That said, the white elite was content to make the ANC amenable to neoliberalism, and didn’t insist that the National Party and Inkatha Party merge, which on paper would have created a serious opposition party with 30% of the vote.

    And for all that, white South Africans parked their votes with Tony Leon, who is Jewish.

  42. Denis says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    The EU recognized the results of the 2006 Montenegrin independence referendum in spite of this alleged vote-rigging? Did this mean nothing to them?

    They (EU member states) were bombing Serbia, incl. Montenegro, a few years earlier. Does it make any logical sense to you that they would be willing to kill us, in support of a secessionist movement no less, while also being so concerned for our wellbeing as to try and prevent a regional government of ours from seceding by untoward means? Because that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

    If someone would have actually rigged this vote, one would think that they would have provided for a bit more margin of error, no?

    No, I do not see how that follows. It makes little difference whether the margin of victory was huge or minor, given that the practical outcome would be identical.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  43. Congrats on Montenegro on finding its spirit. For those interested in the history, read up on the Greens vs. the Whites in 1918-19, Montenegro as a failed Serbian Piedmont, how various factions there split during WW2 (Royalist Chetniks, fascists, communists).

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  44. @peterAUS

    It’s interesting to see you’re back now despite saying you’d give up on this website. The Balkans must simply be too interesting for you to ignore.

    Anyway, I’ve already explained to you my awareness on this issue and I’m clearly in the “sort of comfortable” group. Still though, I don’t understand, what would you have Serbs do? Speak out against “them”? Even if Serbs theoretically decided to go hardcore down the anti “them” road, what difference would it make?

    Most of the world practically hates Serbs anyway, so we really don’t owe it to anyone to go hardcore against “them” …

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  45. Tony says:

    “For that matter, is there really a huge difference between the English and the Irish? Both are alcoholic socialists who live on rainy, dreary islands, eat a lot of fish, and speak the same language.”

    You’d be able to tell once they dropped trou. You know, the Irish curse.

  46. Few things that are missing or people have gotten wrong purposely or because not fully informed in this thread and post:

    1: Not only are Montenegrins literally just a regional and more tribal variety of Serbs, but the Serbian Orthodox Church actually founded the state of Montenegro during Ottoman times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitanate_of_Montenegro_and_the_Littoral

    Djukanovic and his Montenegrin Svidos are literally like offspring trying to cannibalize their parents …

    2: Montenegrin svidos are called “Greens” whose ideological justification is the rebellion of the “Green” faction against unification with the kingdom of Serbia during 1918-1919. This rebellion was simply a tribal and dynastic feud between the Petrovic-Njegos and Karadjordjevic dynasty since Danilo of Montenegro was coup d’etated at the 1918 assembly and then his “green” followers, or those that opposed union with Serbia led by the Karadjordjevic dynasty led a short but unsuccessful rebellion against the “whites”, pro-unionist party of the time. The Greens then developed their identity in the inter-war period and WW2 while being most infamously led by Sekula Drljevic. The Greens for a short time had their own axis-puppet state of Montenegro as a vassal of Italy before Italy directly annexed it after Chetniks and Partisans rose in rebellion. Yugoslav Communism then exacerbated the problem even further with Djukanovic and NATO then continuing things.

    Hence why Croat dogs like Niccolo Salo are cheering this on so much …

    3: This attack on the Serbian Orthodox Church is as almost directly top down led by NATO-USA- ZOG-Globalist-whatever you want to call it world order, as things can possibly get. I can’t be bothered to provide links to prove that all these parties are directly involved (might do so later).

    – Lindsey Graham and Sam Brownback are the two guys who gave the orders for this. Sam Brownback is also the one behind the Ukrainian Orthodox Church scandal, btw.

    – NATO headquarters with NATO General for all of Europe Sam Hodges literally stating that the Serbian Orthodox Church is an “obstacle”/”threat” to NATO.

    – NATO hybrid warfare team in Montenegro.

    – Allison Kemp and UK embassy in Montenegro are leading the attack.

    Milo Djukanovic is merely an executioner here. Some of the groups described above are the real brains behind this while Milo and his Montenegrin svidos are simply on the ground executioners.

    4: Finally, I am personally a believer in miracles and that some things in this world can actually horribly backfire and end up causing a completely opposite result from the one intended by its executor.

    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
  47. Matra says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Belgium (pozzed French and Dutch)

    I think it is the Dutch who are kind of pozzed but the Flemish (Dutch-speaking Belgians) who are quite based.

    • Replies: @PetrOldSack
  48. Mr. XYZ says:

    Agreed. You can just take a look at Germans versus Austrians and Swiss, Thais versus Laotians, Albanians versus Kosovars, Romanians versus Moldovans, Irish versus Scots and Bretons, Spaniards versus Catalans, Danes versus Swedes and Norwegians, Finns versus Estonians, Czechs versus Slovaks, et cetera.

  49. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    “Hence why Croat dogs like Niccolo Salo are cheering this on so much …”

    It’s a joy watching Montenegrins turn against Serb irredentists. You guys brought this on yourselves. Not all that long ago almost all of these Montenegrins were shelling Dubrovnik while it was under siege.

    They apologized for that and we accepted their apology.

    The Podgorica Assembly is being undone.

  50. @Matra

    Belgium, is mostly a city state, Antwerp, and Brussels acting as the middle of nowhere, as of today, that being an ailing EU, NATO assembly, noteworthy rickety.

  51. peterAUS says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Maybe Serbs subconsciously or secretly hope that the Jews will back them in solving the Muslim Question the way they solve the Palestinian one.

    Maybe.

    Little do they know that Jews reserve such solutions only for themselves as they are so so special – God’s chosen people, and will condemn anyone else trying to copy their privileged methods.

    Of course.

    It is interesting to watch all that. An exercise in group psychology, if you will.

  52. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Bosnians make good fruit brandy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  53. @Niccolo Salo

    Not all that long ago almost all of these Montenegrins were shelling Dubrovnik while it was under siege.

    They apologized for that and we accepted their apology.

    Muh “Siege of Dubrovnik” now huh?

    Fuck off.

    There was no siege of Dubrovnik. There was only a military blockade of Dubrovnik where the JNA fired a few potshots at it since the Croat-separatist terrorist forces began attacking the JNA barracks and naval area of Dubrovnik.

    Croat hoaxes to pretend that Dubrovnik was “horribly devastated” are just another one of your dirty tricks. Burning tires deliberately to pretend that the city was ruined is a dirty trick that’ll never fool anyone besides the poorly informed and retards in this comment section.

    You guys brought this on yourselves.

    Serbs brought this on themselves by being stupid enough to save Croats from being partitioned by Italy, Austria and Hungary in 1918-1919 instead of simply taking all the land they wanted for themselves. The stupidity and malevolence of Serbs elites is the only reason I have to endure your bullshit now.

    You should be careful though Croat dog, without the US military and the threat of NATO military (they can’t occupy the Balkans forever, you know) forces acting against Serbs, you are all done for. Of course, that will be first after the Analbanians, Montenegrin Green trash and “Boshniaks”. After all, the best will be saved for last with scum like you. Sooner or later …

  54. peterAUS says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    The Balkans must simply be too interesting for you to ignore.

    Of course it is. A laboratory, or a sandbox. Like “Sand kings”.

    Your people in particular. Those who live in the lab, that is.
    Constantly, unceasingly, being hit, again and again. And, yet, they don’t appear to see who’s doing the hitting. They cant, looks like it.
    Interesting, in a morbid way.

    Anyway, I’ve already explained to you my awareness on this issue and I’m clearly in the “sort of comfortable” group.

    Good.

    Still though, I don’t understand, what would you have Serbs do? Speak out against “them”?

    Acknowledge reality. The first step.

    ….what difference would it make ?

    Make a second step possible.
    Or not, looks like it.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  55. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Scotland developed statehood and a national identity distinct from that of the English more than a millennium ago. Its borders c.1000 AD are recognizable today.

    As such, there can be no comparison with the Ukraine or Belarus, let alone Montenegro

    “No comparison” is going too far.

    While the name and self-identification with the word “Ukraine” is fairly new and dates to the mid 19th century, that’s just a label. The sense of a separate identity and a particular history and culture are longstanding and no different than that between England and Scotland.

    Galicia was fighting against Suzdal over Kiev in the 11th-12th centuries. Ukraine as part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth fought against Moscow, considering itself Rus and Russia as Muscovy (not Rus). And then there was the briefly independent, then autonomous for along time, Hetmanate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate

    Until 1709 this state recognized the Tsar as ruler but had its own laws, administrators, army, foreign embassies, monetary policy (it kept using Polish currency), its own separate Orthodox Church until 1686. It was much more independent of Moscow than were Poland, East Germany, Hungary during the Cold War.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  56. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    When I go to a restaurant, it’s the food that I’m most interested in. Most good restaurants, even bad ones, will offer plenty of good liquor to choose from. Have you ever been to a Bosnian restaurant? If you have, what was your experience like?

    • Replies: @AP
  57. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Is it possible to include a larger facsimile of the map? It’ rather small and hard to see. Thanks!

  58. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I tried a Bosnian restaurant once. Food was forgettable and mediocre, but not terrible. But it was cheap and run by off the boaters, I didn’t expect more.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  59. The fakest nation on earth is Skopje (incorrectly known as Macedonians). Again, these mostly Bulgarian people were created under the auspices of Tito for broader geopolitical reasons. Only 100 years ago their nationalist leaders were simply agitating for Bulgaria. Within 60 years from WWII, they created, at least in their own minds, a separate identity and then attached themselves to the ancient history of another nation to provide some legitimacy.

  60. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Nah, we kicked the shit out of you from ’93 to ’95 and we’ll do it again. Think back to what Arkan said about all those Serbs who didn’t want to fight for their homes in Dalmatia by 1993 and were instead hanging out in cafes in Belgrade.

    He and his men ended up gangpressing the ones that were still around in 1995 after they fled with their tails between their legs.

    Now they’re in Australia, Canada, and elsewhere, where their children will be assimilated and forget all about the Otadzbina.

    It was so easy to get Karadzic and Mladic to sell you guys out in HR. All it cost was just a little oil.

    Say goodbye to Crna Gora and say goodbye to the Serbian Orthodox Church there and say hello to the Montenegrin Orthodox Church.

    • Troll: Denis
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  61. @Niccolo Salo

    I would’ve just pressed the troll button but since I’ve ran out of buttons to press, I’ll just reply to counter this troll garbage.

    Nah, we kicked the shit out of you from ’93 to ’95 and we’ll do it again.

    It was so easy to get Karadzic and Mladic to sell you guys out in HR. All it cost was just a little oil.

    Yeah because it’s so hard to “fight” an enemy crippled by years of international sanctions, racked by a serious lack of national unity and targeted in advance by the combined might of the Muslim World, European World, NATO and the USA as the greatest power in the world of the time.

    You also forgot to mention Milosevic throwing the Krajina Serbs under the bus (empty and false promises of VJ intervention) in exchange for empty promises from the USA regarding Kosovo, especially from Richard Holbrooke. Not only did Milosevic betray them btw, he even went out of his way to send Momcilo Perisic and Mile Mrksic to make sure the Krajina Serbs wouldn’t be able to fight back effectively in any shape or form before Storm …

    Think back to what Arkan said about all those Serbs who didn’t want to fight for their homes in Dalmatia by 1993 and were instead hanging out in cafes in Belgrade.

    He and his men ended up gangpressing the ones that were still around in 1995 after they fled with their tails between their legs.

    Arkan wasn’t a “Serb nationalist” or a “war hero” of any sort. He was an UDBA thug that was only there to loot, pillage and smuggle (together with the enemy in many cases). His types only seriously crippled the morale of the SVK and VRS. Fatally so, in the case of the SVK.

    The last minute “gang-pressing” in 1995 was done by the MUP (Ministry of Internal Affairs) police of Republika Srpska and FRY btw.

    Now they’re in Australia, Canada, and elsewhere, where their children will be assimilated and forget all about the Otadzbina.

    You sure about that? (Never mind mass emigration of Croats during and post-war btw) My family left in the 1990’s from Serbia proper because of sanctions. Yet here I am.

    Say goodbye to Crna Gora and say goodbye to the Serbian Orthodox Church there and say hello to the Montenegrin Orthodox Church.

    You’re nothing without USA and NATO. Same applies for all the other fake trash and scum of the Balkans. What’s even more pathetic is that your ancestors were Serbs anywhere from 50 years to several centuries ago. Traitors and apostates never become anything of note in this world and never will.

    That’s why your effeminate and pathetic little Croat gloating in the present moment is going to be remembered for the future so that it can properly be repaid when the time is right.

    • Replies: @Niccolo Salo
  62. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    No point in actually reading your post. Suffice it to say that you’re not going to fight wars with your neighbours and win. You won’t even get as far as fighting wars again.

    As your great Serbian nationalist Dobrica Cosic said a few years ago, right before his death, you guys are ‘biologically spent and defeated’.

    All your kind of Serb (and thankfully it’s not all Serbs, not even the majority) is left with is aggrandizing a fake history where everyone and everything is Serbian, all the while everyone distancing themselves from you.

    You’re a loser just like Greater Serbia is a loser. Accept this and your frustrations and mental complexes will heal, and then you can focus on making Serbia a successful country with which I wish good Serbs luck.

    You will never live in Serbia again as your destiny is to see your children (if you ever have any) marry non-Serbs and name their kids Keith and Heather.

    Lijep pozdrav iz Hrvatske.

  63. @Niccolo Salo

    You won’t even get as far as fighting wars again.

    How much money are you willing to bet on this?

    As your great Serbian nationalist Dobrica Cosic

    Again lol. Dobrica Cosic cannot be meaningfully considered a real Serb nationalist …

    What’s next, Slobodan Milosevic or Boris Tadic as Serb nationalists?

    All your kind of Serb (and thankfully it’s not all Serbs, not even the majority) is left with is aggrandizing a fake history where everyone and everything is Serbian

    Of course, because Croat ancient Dardania-Illyrianism and supposed Croat “autochtonous” presence completely independent from Serbs on Haemus Mons Peninsula is real history.

    all the while everyone distancing themselves from you.

    Yeah, that’s why China is investing billions into Serbia right?

    You will never live in Serbia again as your destiny is to see your children (if you ever have any) marry non-Serbs and name their kids Keith and Heather.

    Lol. Careful, you might just be proven wrong on all counts in the next couple of years (if anything, most certainly with naming my yet to be made kids “Keith and Heather”).

    Леп поздрав од Србина за једно озбиљно погано Хрватско ђубре.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Philip Owen
  64. Znzn says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    India, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Italy, Germany?

  65. Znzn says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Well you can always try Russification.

  66. @peterAUS

    Make a second step possible.

    What kind of second step do you have in mind?

  67. anonlb says:
    @peterAUS

    Maybe because “them” just use old germanic and papal solutions for serbian “problem”, most of them literally borrowed from H man?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  68. The fact that Shqips, Cucktholics and Bosnahedins are united in their support for another Commie tumor remnant is a good demonstration of their mental illness
    All of the usual suspects have lined up in Serbia, the cucked liberals, euro-atlanticistist and NGO workers are shilling for the Malboro Don and the Globo Homo machine
    Luckily they did us a favor by putting themselves on a list, Appeal 88 as it’s called, calling for Serbs to cuck themselves in order to not hurt the feelings of people who hate us and seek our destruction

    Intersting fact:
    The reason it uses the Italian/Latin name Montenegro in English instead of Crna Gora is because a literal translation would be “Black Mountain” or “Black Hill”, imagine your ethnic name being a geographic term lol

    It is obvious that a good half of the people in Montenegro are against this, time will soon tell if they can get the solid majority and end this clowns reign
    The deciding factor will probably be if enough of the military and police can be convinced to switch sides
    Those hoping for a swift total severing of Montenegro from Serbia are as delusional as Galician svidomy who were hoping to detach Eastern Ukraine from Russia back in 2014

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  69. @reiner Tor

    I find it ironic that all the neighbors of Hungary develop “ancient” “autonomous” identities: Moldova the Republic, Transylvania the likely future republic, Slovakia, the hundred post-Jugoslav and post-Serbian statelets (including upcoming Republic of Vojvodina), another hundred of post-Soviet and post-Ukrainian statelets (including the upcoming Zakarpatia and Rutenia).

    At the same time, the Hungarian main state TV, Duna, broadcasts, apparently with a straight face, from the many corners of the Hungarian Nation™, such as Clug, Bratislava, and Subotica.

    Much like anal sex became the act of supreme love through incessant repetition, Lantoses and Orbans of the last decades claimed so often that Serbia is a social construct, until Serbia became less than a construct. I don’t know much about the current protests, but the virtual absence of violence during and after the Montenegrin separation tells me everything I need to know about the locals’ mindset. It’s the same as that of people of Crimea 2014, North Transylvania 1940, or Austria + Czechoslovakia 1938. Blowing the more powerful overlord is their dream. Therefore, I expect Montenegro to either join some anti-Serb federation, or become a peaceful American no one’s land, like Belgium.

  70. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Okay, two reviews sum it up to: “forgettable and mediocre, but not terrible – at times lousy and uninspiring”. Looks like the only difference between our two experiences is that you found the fare to be cheap and I found it to be overpriced.

    I’m thinking that there’s got to be an analogy between Latin (Central) America’s overall boring cuisine and Mexico’s varied regional greatness and the former Yugoslavia too? Any opinions out there?

    • Replies: @Denis
  71. @iffen

    Serbs were willing to overlook mass genocide of their own population in World War 1 and 2 for the seek of keeping the peace and a united state with the perpetrators
    Every single war in the 90s started with the breakaway republics shooting first, and even before that even as back as Titos reign there were police forces being sent to exterminate nationalist guerillas in Croatia and Kosovo

    All of this has had exactly zero effect on the US and wouldn’t be their problem if they didn’t choose to make for the sake of spreading the gospel of anti-Russian GloboHomo

    • Agree: Denis
  72. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dacian Julien Soros

    (including the upcoming Zakarpatia and Rutenia).

    All ten “Rusyns” in Zakarpattya oblast beholden 100% to Mocow for its patronage comprised of alcoholics and old line sovoks, or the Canadian professor whose made a career of promoting Rusynism and his backers in Pittsburgh? The last time a census was taken in Zakarpattya, over 1,000,000 inhabitants listed Ukrainian as their nationality and only 10,000 indicated “Rusyn” (and even of these, some listed “Ukrainian-Rusyn”). Where’s the popular support for an independent “Ruthenia” then to come from?

  73. @Niccolo Salo

    great Serbian nationalist Dobrica Cosic

    Where is this nonsense coming from?
    Dobrica Ćosić was a generic Sovok retard, his goal was preservation of a Socialist Yugoslavia not a formation of a state for Serbs, I’ve also seen him referred to as “the father of the Serbian nation” in fake quote pictures that get spammed in forums when these discussions arise, literally no one calls him that

    The earliest source for that title that I found is in a Radio Free Europe article, who are not exactly credible on this matter

  74. @Dacian Julien Soros

    It’s the same as that of people of Crimea 2014

    If anything the people in the streets waving the old flag with the Serbian white eagle and tricolor (changed in 2006 to current version) and painting the streets in red, blue and white in protest are the Crimeans
    And Milo and his Cetinje Sovok goons are the Ukrainians trying to prevent the reunification with Serbia which in this context is Russia
    The problem is that Serbia is not Russia, and the Americans will not react lightly to losing a NATO country and potentially giving Russia an adriatic port, I fully expect a color revolution in Belgrade and military intervention in Montenegro, which Croats here will undoubtedly cheer on

    The 2006 separation came after a decade of violence, protests and total economic collapse, hard to expect anything from a deracinated and defeated people
    This current outburst comes from over a decade of work to reignite the old spirit of the country
    Now we have Milo sweating like a pig on live television and sending crews to dig ditches on the Serbo-Montenegrin border

  75. @Agathoklis

    The main reason it succeeded so swiftly was the refusal of the population to be Serbianized. Since they were not allowed to be Bulgarians, “Macedonian” – which was hardly plucked from thin air – was embraced as an acceptable substitute. Since then, of course, that identity has taken on a life of its own.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  76. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    There is no popular support and the terms are not mutually exclusive. But there is yearning to be in ‘Europe’. That means tens of thousands in Subcarpathia have (re)discovered their ‘Hungarian’, ‘Slovak’, ‘Polish’ or Rusyn roots. Many even truthfully. The point is that it helps with migrating from Ukraine. But it requires a lot of documents.

    A neat solution would be to simply move the border so people don’t have to do the paperwork. It would be neither fair, no correct, but more efficient. That will be the logical outcome of the Maidan slogan ‘we are going to Europe‘.

    I know a lot of people from Subcarpathia. None of them are separatists, but if given a choice of detaching Subcarpathia from Ukraine and somehow attaching it to a European country, they would do it in a heartbeat. Some say that as Ukraine inevitably collapses over the next decade into an unruly mess, they wouldn’t mind switching teams.

    Maidan started a march by desperate people ‘to Europe’. They will come by any means. I wouldn’t count on Subcarpathia staying with Ukraine. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, Europe is Europe, and Kiev won’t be in it. Not in our lifetime.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  77. @silviosilver

    Since they were not allowed to be Bulgarians

    They did not want to be Bulgarians either
    Macedonian as an identity was heavily pushed by the Socialist Yugoslav state, up to and including the severing of the Church and changing peoples last names ending in -ić to -ski

    It is true that some Macedonian Slavs felt separate from both Serbs and Bulgarians but there was no single grass roots identity strong enough to unite them, so the Macedonian one was imposed from abroad to the detriment of virtually everyone
    Macedonians got a laughable hodge podge of an Ancient Greek and Medieval Slavic mix for an ethnicity and Serbs and Bulgars lost the territory
    Another bonus is that Greeks are pissed that their history is being appropriated by larpers
    North Macedonia either way is a shithole, on course to have a conflict of it’s own with the growing Albanian population in the West of the country(another problem which the Communists made worse by allowing refugees from Hoxhas autism to settle there)

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @silviosilver
  78. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Again lol. Dobrica Cosic cannot be meaningfully considered a real Serb nationalist …

    The bigger lol is your no-true-Scotsmaning in this thread.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  79. @silviosilver

    By what measure was he a Nationalist?
    He was shilling for the preservation of Socialism and multietnićka Yugoslavia and for the division of Kosovo, not for the creation of a Serb state, spent his life going from one Communist institution to the next and even participated in the CIA backed coup in 2000 against Milošević

    Sources for him being a Serbian nationalist inevitably end up being disinfo trash like RFE/RL
    So please, explain this logic to me

  80. @Korenchkin

    They did not want to be Bulgarians either

    Lol. If Bulgaria, rather than Serbia, had occupied that territory in 1912, Bulgarian identity would have been assumed with nary a peep of protest – just as occurred in the small corner of Macedonia that Bulgaria was able to secure. Serbian overlordship, on the other hand, provoked massive resistance. Says it all, doesn’t it.

    North Macedonia either way is a shithole, on course to have a conflict of it’s own with the growing Albanian population in the West of the country

    For the purposes of it this discussion, that’s entirely beside the point. So is Macedonia’s alleged fake-and-gayness. The point is Serbs had no business in Macedonia and were rightly shown the door.

    Montenegrins have far less reason to follow suit, but that if that is the course they decide upon, then I will support them. After all, to my way of thinking, distancing oneself from Serbian nutjob nationalism is a sure sign of intelligence.

    Lastly, the fakest and gayest thing on this thread is the whole concept of fake-and-gayness itself, which is little more than a Russian nationalist cope.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  81. @silviosilver

    Serbian overlordship, on the other hand, provoked massive resistance

    IMRO agitators and guerillas deployed from Bulgaria are “massive resistance”?
    Of course Bulgarians had an easier time assimilating what they got, they didn’t have a massive war tear their country to absolute shreds and the part they got was small and close to Bulgaria making it easier to mix

    but that if that is the course they decide upon, then I will support them

    Given the size of the protests they seem to be choosing the opposite

    the fakest and gayest thing on this thread is the whole concept of fake-and-gayness itself

    Ofcourse a Croat would be triggered by it 🙂

  82. Denis says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You’re doing it wrong.

    Searching for Bosnian/Serbian cuisine in North American restaurants will get you nowhere. What makes the food in those countries great is not the recipes, it’s the ingredients. I have been to many different countries, not a massive number, but enough to sample various cuisines, and of course ethnic food is popular everywhere in the west. But nothing that I’ve ever had compares to the meals I was served in Serbia and Bosnia.

    The reason is that they use fresh, high-quality ingredients. If someone hosts you in their house and serves you dinner, there is a good chance that they or their neighbours harvested the ingredients themselves. For example, by far the best seafood I ever had was in a small cliffside restaurant a short drive from Belgrad. The reason for this is that the fish was fresh and caught from the immediate locale.

    Many of the recipes are like modified versions of Greek or Turkish food, so if you can find a high quality Greek or Turkish place, that’s a pretty good analogue, but IMHO freshness beats all.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, Mr. XYZ
  83. peterAUS says:
    @anonlb

    Doubt it.

    I think its the huge trauma from massacres in 40’s by the Pavelic regime.
    Those created (fake, of course…) “bond” between “them” and Serbs. One way bond, obviously.

    Breaking that, somehow, doesn’t seem likely in foreseeable future.

    Interesting to watch, anyway.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  84. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Here’s the ethnic breakdown of Zakarpattya Oblast in 2001:

    Nationality Number in 2001 (%) in 1989 (%) growth (%)
    Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns) 1,010,100 80.5 78.4 +3.4%
    Hungarians 151,500 12.1 12.5 -2.7%
    Romanians 32,100 2.6 2.4 +9.0%
    Russians 31,000 2.5 4.0 -37.3%
    Roma 14,000 1.1 1.0 +15.4%
    Slovaks 5,600 0.5 0.6 -22.3%
    Germans 3,500 0.3 0.3 +3.0%

    The 10,001 Rusyns were included with the Ukrainians. Don’t you find it a little bit ridiculous to try and build a nation state out 10,001 citizens? The Marx Brothers made a movie out of this idea called “Duck Soup” and renamed “Ruthenia” “Freedonia”. Here’s how it will be run, let me know if it fullills your aspirations for the “Rusyns”. Better yet watch the whole film!

    All of Ukrainians would like to become a part of Europe, and when they do “Freedonia” will be allowed to flourish! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  85. Elena 2 says:
    @Europe Europa

    Europe Europa <- An Analabanian Organ Harvester spotted

  86. Elena 2 says:
    @iffen

    iffen <– Another Analabanian Organ Harvester spotted. Possibly Croatian Baby Boiler

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  87. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Instead of just allowing the Hungarians and “Rusyns” there own little statelets within Zakarpattya, why not carve up the whole oblast according to the percentages presented within the graph? Beckow, how would you like to head up a new Slovak sub-state within Zakarpattya, including less than 5% of the landmass? We could call it “Slovenia”, oops I think that one already exists? Maybe “Slovonia”? They could install you as the “President for life” like they do in Russia? 🙂 🙂

    • Replies: @Beckow
  88. @Elena 2

    Nah, just that most Westerners are taught to hate Serbs, if they find out about them at all
    We pissed off the Great Satan when we fucked up his end of history fan fiction back in the 90s, so now we gotta deal with this tomfoolery

  89. i seem to remember historical atlases of my youth, perhaps German from the 1930’s actually, showing Montenegro as the only Balkan state independent of large empires. The Serbs were late arrivals to independence by comparison.

    They both have copper mines so they can look forward to wealth in the second ellctric age. I think some veins cross the border so it’s complicated and both sides need to assert their distinctions.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  90. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    We agree that it is a ridiculous idea, but it could happen, the stars are aligned…

    Regarding me running it – and I mean the whole damn place, I always think big – well, it is a bit rural for my taste, where am I going to get a decent macchiato? The main current export from Subcarpathia is heading my way without much effort, so I think I will pass.

    Check this out if you doubt the Rusyn existence, Rusyn girls, not bad, I would give them a country:

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  91. @another anon

    My sentiments exactly. Smaller nations are not, on the whole, capable of building enough weapons for global extermination with the spare change from taxation. With a Federal EU to keep them on the same page there will be peace, not just absence of war.

  92. One of my Serbian friends is adamant that the only reason the Montengrin government wants to take the church’s property is so the former can give the land to the Montengrin mafia, aka “businesses” (which really just means mafia). The mafia/businesses want to “develop” the land into tourist attractions (and places for money laundering), especially along the coast.

  93. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    If the Welsh experience is any guide, the children of exiles are more nostalgic for the lost ancestral home than the exiles themselves. That said mine went in opposite directions.

    Every year at the Eisteddfod (a poetry competition that typically attracts 100,000 attendees in a country of 3 million + 2 million exiles) there is an exiles day. It is well attended from generations back. The Australians have managed to mix up male and female name endings over generations but the Canadians and Kiwis and South Africans do it right. the Argentinians even compete for the poetry prize.

    • Thanks: TheTotallyAnonymous
  94. @peterAUS

    I guess you’re right.

    But anyone who bothers to look will find out that the international press is controlled by Jews, which serves as the main propaganda mouthpiece of their globohomo ZOGs and NWO, and so if anyone is demonised in such media, it is the fault of the Jews. Now the Serbs recognise very well that they have been demonised yet they don’t want to blame those responsible and still want to have dealings with them.

    There’s not much they can do at the moment anyway and it really all depends which way geopolitical winds blow in the future. And almost all European countries, including Serbia, are ruled by sellouts and traitors, and face similar questions of demographic and cultural survival in the face of a common enemy – the immigrant invasion.

    I’m getting sick and tired of all these Europeans arguing about their histories and obsessing on parochial issues. I’m fed up waiting, anticipating, if, what, when, how? I sometimes wish that Sultan Erdogan would play that ace he’s got up his sleeve with which he keeps blackmailing the EU and drive all those millions of refugees onto Europe and then let’s see if Europe stands up and fights for its survival or sinks and drowns in the tide of alien barbarians. And if it sinks then to hell with it and all its history and culture – obviously it wasn’t worth anything if nobody wants to defend it. Who’ll care anyway as they’ll all be going to the mosque?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  95. jony says:

    In the Ukraine Rusyns don’t have the opportunity to identify as Rusyn. In Slovakia and Hungary nearly all of these “Ukrainians” self-identify as Rusyn when given the choice. I can’t believe that Slovakia and Hungary are on the Kremlin’s payroll.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @AP
  96. @Korenchkin

    When it comes to perceptions of Serbs, I am literally like the expanded consciousness internet meme.

    When I was a little kid, I “supported” the Serbs because it was the opposite of what the TV said (I was a contrarian).

    When I was an adolescent and young adult, I thought the Serbs were genocidal maniacs, etc, etc.

    Later I came to sympathize with them. And obviously I agree completely with your description of the “tomfoolery.”

    Iffen, obviously, knows diddly poo about these questions.

  97. @iffen

    I assume you are a fellow American.

    If so, your comments are typical of the problematic American “nationalist” tendency to harshly judge other countries while claiming to care only about America.

    If you had read even the most basic history, you would not ignorantly claim that Serbs are especially violent in their nationalism. Particularly since the average American “nationalist” is willing to justify atrocities like Nagasaki and Dresden.

    It would be far better for us, as Americans, to simply admit that we know nothing about the Balkans and leave those people alone. But, we cannot do that, because our empire demand so otherwise. So we U.S. residents feel obliged to condemn the empire’s “enemies” even though the U.S. state hates us even more than it hates the Serbs.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Korenchkin
  98. @Philip Owen

    It should be noted that for Serbs in school these Montenegrins are portrayed in history class as heroes, Peter Petrović Njegoš II is taught as one of our greatest writers and philosophers (for Montenegrin nationalists he is either a Serbianizing traitor or someone whos entire historical and literary record has been falsified), it’s next to impossible to go through Serbian language class without reading his work “The Mountain Wreath” (Gorski Vijenac) which called for a national awakening to unite all Serbs and not just of Montenegro
    The royal Serbian Karađorđević dynasty originated from Montenegros Highlands region, the name comes from Đorđe Petrović (in English this would be: George Peterson) who got the nickname Kara Đorđe (Black George) from the Turks due to his classic highlander brutality against them
    This nationalism and awakening of a lost nation would go on to inspire the creation of Zionism (Theodor Herzl was born in Zemun, near Belgrade)
    I know Zionism isn’t looked upon favorably in these circles, but it is undoubtedly successful

    For it’s endurance against the Ottomans and excellent military record against them Montenegro recieved the nickname “Serbian Sparta” from Serbs

    From 1905 to 2004 they fought under the Red, Blue and White banner which is now being suppressed by the ruling party, and as a sign of protest the people are painting it on every surface they can find

  99. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I am an American. I pretty much disagree with everything else in your comment.

  100. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Well we used to be allies

    Here’s an old Hollywood classic about Serbs, iirc the plot actually takes place in Montenegro, near Kotor

  101. @jony

    With so many politicians on Russian payroll, no wonder Russian wages are so low

  102. AP says:
    @jony

    In the Ukraine Rusyns don’t have the opportunity to identify as Rusyn

    Yes they do. A total of 10,000 did so on the last census.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  103. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Sure, 10k…and the moment they cross to Slovakia they all say that they are Rusins. Can you explain that? Are the devochky just messing with us?

    • Replies: @AP
  104. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    The costumes may be some sort of “Rusyn” gear, but the dialect that they’re using is clearly closer to Central Ukrainian, not anything they use in the mountains. They even refer to themselves as “діввчата” not a part of the local dialects. You should be able to find a decent macchiato either in Uzhgorod or Mukachevo, where I’m told the coffee club culture that is booming in neighboring Lviv has extended to these two Ukrainian cities too.

    Besides, I had you pegged to lead a new Slovakian state called Slovania, not Freedonia. Your new country would be about half the size of Freedonia. You could start a new nationalized chain of coffee shops too? 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  105. @Mr. Hack

    Just because a country is fake, it doesn’t mean that it won’t exist. See Montenegro.

    Just because a country’s borders are absurd, it doesn’t mean they can’t stay like that as long as the overlord wants it. See Hungary 1940.

    Just because Zakarpatia is not wanted by Trump, it doesn’t mean Abu Hunter can’t create it.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  106. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    For your benefit, I’m enclosing the last known interview with Petr Gecko, the self proclaimed separatist leader of “Ruthenia” (formerly known as Zakarpattya). He spends about 95% of his time in Russia. It’s quite possible that he lives next door to Yanukovych, somewhere where Putler can quickly pull him of the shelve and use him if it ever becomes feasible (like Yanukovych). He’s a complete incompetent with virtually no following “back home”. Like the dancers that you’ve provided, he too doesn’t seem to speak any of the local lingos, but this one, instead of standard Ukrainian seems to only be able to speak in Russian. I think that “Freedonia” needs somebody more aristocratic – this guy is just to plebeian to garner any respect. To be honest, he looks happier than I’ve ever seen him – I’d suggest that he stay put in Russia because he’s shunned in Zakarpattya.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mike in Boston
  107. @Niccolo Salo

    Serbs are total losers. Don’t pay attention to these fags.

    One redeeming quality they have is a sense of self-deprecating humor, but that’s what those impotent Internet warriors lack.

    Otherwise, everything & anything about them is a waste of time…

  108. @Mr. XYZ

    The idea that Scots and English are as distant as Poles and Russians is just laughable. Scots and English speak the same language, Northern English dialects merge into traditional “Scots” dialects, there is no clear border between the two. Most “Scots” words are used in the far North of England, particularly in the Geordie dialect. So are you saying Geordies are as distant from Southern English as Poles and Russians then?

    Russian and Polish form totally separate branches of the Slavic language family, there is almost no mutual intelligibility between the two. Also, Poles are Catholic and Russians are Orthodox while Scots and English are both Protestant.

  109. @AP

    Galicia was fighting against Suzdal over Kiev in the 11th-12th centuries.

    You keep bringing up this analogy, but it’s extremely wrong IMO. I’ll write a post on it soon.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  110. @Anatoly Karlin

    Both modern Scots and modern English have little to do with the Britain of Roman times. If the “Scots” are of ancient pre-Roman Celtic origin and the English Germanic invaders, which I think is what you are basically arguing, then why is “Scots” an Anglic, Germanic language and not a Celtic language?

    The reality is the bulk of the modern Scots are of Anglo-Saxon origin like the bulk of the modern English are. Arguing that Scots are different to the English because of some ancient “Celtic” history in Scotland is much the same as the people who argue that Montenegro is different to Serbia because they believe that Montenegro has more Ilyrian history, and I have researched the issue and I know that is precisely what many Montenegrin nationalists claim.

  111. @peterAUS

    Alright, a few thoughts…

    1. most Serbs live in a fantasy world-view with Vatican inc. as the chief enemy & fiction history. Their best newspaper, “Politika”, is very instructive about these issues, especially the comments section on controversial articles. Over 50% of the populace lives in the area if myth (Serbs are continuation of the supposed Vinča culture of ca. 8000 years ago (or so, I forgot); Serbs are Celts; Sanskrit is basically Serbian; even more rubbish on their victimology in past two centuries,..).

    They are the champs of irrationality among European peoples, close to mental framework of Black Muslims with Yakub etc.

    2. most lower-middle class Serbs blame Jews as archetypal globalists (Soros etc.), so they’re misojudaistically conspiratorial in their outlook

    3. on the other hand, their elites (if this is the word) would like to jump in the victimhood wagon with Jews, so there are efforts by their intellectuals (historians, literary theorists, writers, ..) to forge ties with Israel & Jews as such, in the role of Victims-United-Emotional-Blackmail industry.

    I don’t give a shit about Serbian Orthodox Church & my opinion on it is virtually the same as expressed in the following vid in Croatian: this is a pathological faux-ecclesiastical organization that should be banned from any inter- denominational discourse.

  112. Anon12 says:

    I don’t think the situation is quite that dire. This seems to be backfiring massively. Ethnic identities wax and wane, nothing is irreversible.

  113. @Bardon Kaldian

    From this blog I’m learning that most Slavs in general seem fixated on myth and are incredibly arrogant. Apparently the Scots and English are as different to each other as Poles and Russians according to them, perhaps even more so. They certainly have some audacity to claim that when Ukraine and even much of Belarus, their “identical” East Slavic brothers, are desperate to break away from them and what no association with anything “Russian” and would consider it an insult if anyone referred to their languages as “Russian”.

    I find it incredible that they can claim that the Scots and English are as different as two nationalities who speak completely different languages and have different religions.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  114. @Europe Europa

    The Brythonic languages had split two millennia ago, and by the time of Bede, he was writing of Brythonic and Pictish as separate languages.

    Russian and Polish were mutually understandable until at least as late as the 11th century AD (chroniclers wrote about troops from the two sides exchanging insults across the River Bug during the Polish intervention in the Rus’ civil war of 1015-19). Which is not surprising, as the two peoples had only diverged around 300 AD.

    … then why is “Scots” an Anglic, Germanic language and not a Celtic language?

    Because it successfully outcompeted Gaelic (a mutated descendant of Pictish AFAIK, a Celtic language that was long distinct from the Brythonic Celtic languages) in the Lowlands. Gaelic remained competitive in the Highlands.

    Ofc Scots English is heavily bastardized, as transplants into highly foreign cultures tend to be (e.g. ebonics for another example).

    The reality is the bulk of the modern Scots are of Anglo-Saxon origin like the bulk of the modern English are.

    LOL. Scots are predominantly Celtic. The English are Celtic metises (with Angles and Saxons in the south-east, Scandinavians in the north, with a general gradient towards more Celticness as you go west).

    Here is Winston Churchill describing the general process in rather euphemistic language:

    .. we may cherish the hope that somewhere a maiden’s cry for pity, the appear of beauty in distress, the lustful needs of an invading force,would create some bond between victor and vanquished. Thus the blood would be preserved, thus the rigours of subjugation would fade as generations passed away. The complete obliteration of an entire race is repulsive to the human mind. There should at least have been, in default of pity, a hearing for practical advantage or the natural temptations of sex.

  115. @Europe Europa

    I’m not sure who are you talking about, but, evidently, Polish (as a Western Slavic language) is genetically, typologically & culturally different from any eastern Slavic language; Ukrainian & Russian are perhaps genetically identical or close, but are typologically & culturally clearly different (and especially re identity).

    But, a people is an amalgam of culture, name, history, territory, future aspirations, memory & the will to be, so those who deny the existence of some other people I just don’t take seriously. No time to waste on such blackmuslimesque nonsense.

    As for South Slavs, those who belong to the Catholic West have, in time, developed an intellectual culture where critical thought, eventually, wins (despite various fairy-tale nonsense); those belonging to Eastern Orthodoxy & Islam are, as a rule, still in thrall of mythic projections (Muslims much more than Orthodox).

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  116. peterAUS says:
    @Commentator Mike

    …they don’t want to blame those responsible and still want to have dealings with them.

    Yep.

    ..almost all European countries, including Serbia, are ruled by sellouts and traitors, and face similar questions of demographic and cultural survival in the face of a common enemy – the immigrant invasion.

    True.
    A little difference, though: neither of those were (literally) bombed into submission and/or had their parts taken from them.
    One wonders (well, sort of….) what will make Serbs realize what’s really going on?

    …I’m getting sick and tired of all these Europeans arguing about their histories and obsessing on parochial issues. I’m fed up waiting, anticipating, if, what, when, how?

    Even an English gentleman of, I guess, mature age !?
    Advice if I may: create own bubble within the paradigm and keep watching. In that order. The bubble, preferably, within own neighborhood. You could actually be quite surprised how easily that can be done.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  117. peterAUS says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    1. most Serbs live in a fantasy world-view with Vatican inc. as the chief enemy & fiction history.

    Looks like it.
    Then it’s Germany. Then British. Then Americans.
    Never “them”.

    2. most lower-middle class Serbs blame Jews as archetypal globalists (Soros etc.), so they’re misojudaistically conspiratorial in their outlook

    Interesting. Source/links?

    3. on the other hand, their elites (if this is the word) would like to jump in the victimhood wagon with Jews, so there are efforts by their intellectuals (historians, literary theorists, writers, ..) to forge ties with Israel & Jews as such, in the role of Victims-United-Emotional-Blackmail industry.

    Yep.
    One would expect them to reassess that effort after OBVIOUSLY not working since, say, 91. Rational people would do it.
    In this case……………………………….

    • Replies: @Elena 2
  118. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Sure, 10k…and the moment they cross to Slovakia they all say that they are Rusins. Can you explain that?

    How many? Are the ones you speak to representative of the general population in Transcarpathia? Why do voting patterns in Transcarpathia follow the ones in Central Ukraine (that is, moderately nationalstic) if somehow the people don’t think of themselves as Ukrainian?

    In 1944 about 50% of the people in Transcarpathia thought of themselves as Ukrainians and 50% as Rusyns. The regions that ended up in Czechoslovakia experienced support for “Rusynism” while ironically the ones in the USSR experienced promotion of a Ukrainian identity (Rusynism was associated with Hungary and Ukrainian identity would tie the region with the rest of Ukraine).

    As a result, about AFAIK 2/3 of Eastern Slavs from Slovakia (correct me if I’m wrong on specific ratio) think of themselves as Rusyns but only 1% to 2% of the ones in Ukraine do.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Beckow
  119. @Europe Europa

    Scotland is complicated in terms of ethnic origin.

    In Roman times, it was mostly Brythonic (Welsh) with a group in the North East, the Picts (never conquered by the Romans, speaking a different variant.

    As the Romans were leaving, an Irish tribe, speaking Gaelic started slaving raids that turned into wars of conquest. This tribe was called the Scots. They quickly conquered Highland Scotland, although Scotland north of the central valley was finally united under a Pictish chied called Kenneth MacAlpin.

    The Brythonic kingdoms, one around Glasgow and one around Edinburgh held on for a while both extending some way south into modern England. The Angle kingdom, Northumbria, based around York pushed forward and acaptured a major road junction controlling the North South route and an East West route. This was at Catraeth, modern Catterick. Gododdin, the Edinburgh kingdom, recruited a mercenary army of 600 cataphracts to recapture the site. The Angle army of 5000 infantry trapped them and killed them all. This broke Gododdin financially and militarily. The Angles took all the East Coast up to Edinburgh as Angle speaking overlords of a Celtic population.

    The Vikings then arrived in various places especially the North West.

    Meanwhile the Britons of Rheged (Glasgow) hung on. Shakespeare’s MacBeth was a king of Rheged/Strathclyde. Their last leader, Owen the Bald, was killed in 1016 in battle against the Northumbrians on the river Tweed. Although he died, his army was victorious and about half the lost territory was regained. This was decisive and lasting. The Normans in 1066 and later did not contest the territory. Marriage alliances with the Pictish ruled Scots of the north meant that leaderless Rheged disappeared from history. Gaelic was for a while the court language and spread into the Brythonic area temporarily.

    The Anglo-Normans tried and failed to make the king of Scotland and his nobles swear Fee Liege (a very binding oath) to the English King for their considerable lands obtained by marriage to English speaking heiresses in England. The Scottish Kings would only swear Fee Simple. (same situation in reverse as the English in France). Scotland was put under military occupation as was Wales for the same reasons. The Scots acheived a major military victory at Bannockburn, wiping out a significant fraction of the Norman descended English aristocracy. There were many border disputes but Scottish independence was no longer in doubt. The Welsh had divided into small kingdoms and could not take advantage of this.

    The Scots mounted a return invasion of Ireland shortly afterwards but found little support even in the North from whence their ancestors had invaded Scotland. (Later Cromwell found them a place).

    The King of Norway claimed the viking dominated (but mostly Gaelic speaking) North West as the Lordship of the Isles until 1424 when Scotland attained it’s modern borders by marriage.

    So ethnically and legally (Roman law from Strathclyde) Scotland is distinct from England despite Scots English being a dialect of Northumbrian. Scots English had a royal court in which to develop so it is more robust than Geordie or Yorkshire the Northumbrian dialects.

    Scotland is religiously very different from England. The Church of England is not Protestant. It is a Reformed Catholic Church barely distinguishable from the Church of Rome and once seen as an reaction towards Orthodoxy not least by the Russian Orthodox Church which has on several occassins been read to accept Anglican bishops. The state religion in Scotland is a very Calvinist form of Presbyterianism. They are strongly protestant. Wars have been fought over the difference between Reformation (also found in The Netherlands) and Protestantism. Religion is/was as substantial a dividing line between the English and Scots as between the English and Irish. The Queen changes religion when she is in Scotland.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  120. @Anatoly Karlin

    I arrived late. I have had a go. Your reply was very adequate.

  121. @peterAUS

    Srdja Trifkovic has been published in Chronicles Magazine, based in Rockford, Illinois, in the USA for quite some years. Always look forward to his work:

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blogs/srdja-trifkovic/

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  122. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    He definitely looks more presidential than Porky, I wouldn’t write him off.

    I am not an expert on the Subcarpathian mountain dialects. But Rusyns in NE Slovakia use ‘dzivcata’ and the words in the song all the time. It is very authentic, other than they filmed it in the Tatra mountains further west.

    When dealing with Subcarpathia you worry about Moscow, but that’s silly, Moscow is too far and has little interest. You should worry about Presov or maybe Hungary. Rusyns are very integrated and their copatriots in Uzgorod want in on it. From their point of view, Slovakia and Hungary are in EU, much richer and more pleasant and Subcarpathia used to be a part of them until 1945. Geographically it fits better with mountains separating Subcarpathia from the rest of Ukraine. And the family ties are very deep. This is an obvious solution to their unfulfillable yearning for Europe. It is coming because the living standard gap between Ukraine and its western neighbours is enormous and getting bigger – people always go for the easiest solution and they want to be in EU. Now.

    By the way, we have no interest in this, I am just observing the dynamic. And the ‘dzivcata’.

  123. peterAUS says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Yep.

    He does get “them” and even, carefully, spells them out.
    Really carefully, of course, because he knows his main audience. That one incapable, obviously, to see the reality of the last 30 years.
    Perhaps in….say….10….they’ll start to get it.
    Not holding my breath.

  124. @Korenchkin

    Ofcourse a Croat would be triggered by it 🙂

    Silviosilver is a Croat?

    That would explain why almost every single one of his comments is worse than worthless.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  125. @Philip Owen

    Exactly. I do not get the screaming from nationalists that new nations are somehow fake and gay.
    Everything old was once new, your ancient nations were once new when they were founded.

    When Russia broke from Mongol Empire, when Serbia broke from Ottoman empire, the Mongols and Turks were bitching as much as you are now. Why cannot be Russians proud Mongol patriots? Why are they breaking the grand Mongol nation?

  126. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Looking forward to it. I don’t think what would now be considered a separate national appeared until the 15th or early 16th century; in the last century before the Mongol invasion it was probably more like the Northern vs. Southern USA.

  127. Elena 2 says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Croatian ustasha, shares videos form the cesspool of Croatian internet

  128. Elena 2 says:
    @peterAUS

    Exactly, it’s never us, the targets of foreign empires. Please don’t project your sadism and psychopathy on Serbs. btw,that is genetic with you

  129. @Korenchkin

    Of course a Croat would be triggered by it

    Why would Croats, with their storied past, be triggered by it?

  130. @Dacian Julien Soros

    Yes, it’s the Magyars who created Montenegro, Slovakia, Moldova, all out of whole cloth. Are you okay?

    • LOL: Daniel.I
    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
  131. @Anatoly Karlin

    …chroniclers wrote about troops from the two sides exchanging insults across the River Bug during the Polish intervention in the Rus’ civil war of 1015-19

    I’m pretty sure Polish insults are comprehensible to Russians even today, and vice-versa.

    Polish is pretty legible once you transliterate it into a normal Cyrillic alphabet.

  132. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    They are a more advanced culture, so perhaps I should wish I was one. Not that they’d want me, since I trash their nationalism every bit as irreverently as I trash Serbia’s.

    Balkans petty nationalism is utter crap. Dump it, dump it all. Exorcise it, scrub yourself clean, before it devours your soul.

  133. Mr.Bean says:
    @peterAUS

    They don’t have a dialect of their own, they speak East Herzegovinian dialect of the Serbian language, which is the same as Serbs in South-Western Serbia, Serbs in B&H and Krajina Serbs. That is the main standard of the Serbian language.

    Concerning “them”, we could argue that “they” have been in power to influence the Balkan theater of the world since the Anglo-Saxon powers took over the world domination game, but not before, so blaming Germany, Vatican or Austria-Hungary seems more logical since they have been in the anti-Serbian game for far longer.

    Jasenovac and the whole WWII experience also has a part in it, true(in 1941, the Western Serbs, Serbs west of the Drina river have been 1/3 of the Croatian/Bosnian population, now they are 1/8 of the population in the same area).

    Some Serbian national thinkers have been characterized as anti-Semitic, like Jaša Tomić, for example, but most of them are from the Serbian regions which were within Austria-Hungary, so largely influenced by Catholic and European thinkers.

    One interesting hypothesis for the lack of Serbian anti-Semitism isn’t the “uncomfortable” part of it(Serbs, after all waged a “mini-World War” against NATO, and feel no shame about it), but rather that the the whole inherently anti-Semitic Christian mythology has been replaced by Kosovo mzthos and national mythology within the Serbian national character(Branković replaced Judas, Kniaz Lazar replaced Jesus etc.)

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  134. Mr.Bean says:
    @Europe Europa

    False equivalence. Scots are originally a non-Anglo/Germanic people and still do, at least on paper have a language of their own, always had their own separate statehood etc.

    Territory of MNE is a term originating in the late 15th century(around 20 such terms throughout the Serbian lands), and exclusively as a Serbian territory/region. Before that they were a part of Serbia(Under Vlastimirović, Vojislavljević, Vukanović and Nemanjić dynasties, so almost for a thousand years).

    The first ideas of a separate MNE nationality are not older than the year 1945.

    Population of MNE has no coherent identity, or any objective segment of separate identity or nationality.It’s a quasi-country with 25% non-Orthodox(thus not loyal)population, and the Orthodox population is divided among itself, along ethnic, tribal, regional, ideological, confessional, and every other lines. It’s a tiny country with around 500k-600k people, with over a million descendants living in Serbia proper, all of whom declare themselves as Serbs.

    In short, without external factor propping-up the existence of this entity, the destiny of MNE is to either be annexed by Serbia or divided between Serbia and Albania(with the bulk of the territory going to Serbia).

    Note: “Montenegrin language” doesn’t objectively exist, is identical to Serbian, and was “invented”(no joke) int he 2000’s.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  135. Mr.Bean says:
    @Niccolo Salo

    “Congrats on Montenegro on finding its spirit.” – You mean the 300k people(over half of the population) protesting against this law or do you mean the party directive from the (ex)commie apparatchiks which want to take the Church property(I doubt that would be described as “spirit”)?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  136. Znzn says:

    How white genetically are Albanians and Bosniaks anyway? How much of their Y and MTDNA is clearly not from there or atypical of Europeans?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  137. @Bardon Kaldian

    I’m not sure who are you talking about, but, evidently, Polish (as a Western Slavic language) is genetically, typologically & culturally different from any eastern Slavic language; Ukrainian & Russian are perhaps genetically identical or close, but are typologically & culturally clearly different (and especially re identity).

    A poster on here claimed that the distance between the English and Scots is comparable to the Russians and Poles, which I think is rather overstating the point. Russian and Ukrainian seems a more realistic comparison.

    The distance between Russian and Ukrainian languages seems like English and Scots in that you can evidently see they are very closely related and have a lot of mutual intelligibility, but at the same time are clearly different too. In contrast I’m not aware of any great mutual intelligibility between Russian and Polish, so to say English and Scots is comparable sounds ridiculous to me and almost insulting.

    There are regional English dialects which are almost as different from Standard English as Scots is, so using the same logic you could argue that England itself is not a real country.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  138. @Mr.Bean

    Most Scots never spoke Scottish Gaelic, it’s a minority language spoken in the highlands and originated from immigrants from Ireland. Most lowland Scots never had anything to do with Gaelic.

    As for “Scots”, that isn’t even recognised as a real language. Scottish nationalists would like it to be for obvious reasons, but really it isn’t any more distant from Standard English than some of the more distant English dialects from Standard English. Most countries have distinctive regional dialects, I can’t see that Scots, Yorkshire, Geordie, Brummie, etc, is really any different to that?

    You could transcribe any regional dialect in Britain phonetically and claim it was its own language if there was a political will to do so, but it’s a rather filmsy basis for nationhood.

  139. @Anatoly Karlin

    Ofc Scots English is heavily bastardized, as transplants into highly foreign cultures tend to be (e.g. ebonics for another example).

    I’m not talking about “Scots English” (which is basically Standard English with a Scottish accent), I’m talking about the Scots language, which is a Germanic language and forms part of the Anglic branch although not officially recognised by most linguistics as being anything other than a dialect of English.

    “Scots” to me looks like working class Glaswegian speech phonetically transcribed out, most English people with no prior knowledge of Scots can read most of it with little difficulty, the meaning of most of the words is obvious once you get used to the way it is transcribed. It is nothing like the distance between Russian and Polish.

    Not that anyone would ever need to read Scots. No one writes in Scots and almost no one speaks “pure” Scots, even the working class Scottish. It’s a completely artificial language created by the Scottish nationalist movement for the purpose of nation building.

    Russian and Ukrainian MIGHT be a more apt comparison, but then again I’m not sure because they are actually officially separate languages whereas English and “Scots” are not. I think even the distance between Russian and Ukrainian is probably greater than that of English and “Scots”.

  140. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Montenegrins are one of the fakest nationalities on the planet. In the words of one friend, Montenegro “is a Serbian Belarus, except imagine that 50% of Moscow comes from Belarus 3 generations back.” The movement to join Serbia in 1918 was Serbian nationalist to its core, even though Montenegro’s current elites now portray it as a Serbian “occupation.” Their separate nationality identity was created under Tito, which accelerated in the 1990s as the local nomenklatura – enabled by Milosevic’s sovok insistence on maintaining the Yugoslav federal structure – switched skins from Yugoslav federalism to local nationalism. Even today, the numbers of self-identifying “Montenegrins” fluctuates from census to census depending on the current level of svidomist propaganda that they are subjected to.

    They were an independent entity of their own prior to WW I. Montenegrins (as in the ethno-religious Slavic Orthodox Christian variant, not to be confused with other ethnic groups in Montenegro) have been described as “super Serbs” on the basis that they were able to not be as under the occupation of the Turks as the Serbs.

    Darn shame what has happened there. At least at one point, Montenegrins were arguably the most pro-Russian of peoples. Montenegro declared war on Japan after the latter attacked Russia. It was only after the fall of Communism that Montenegro’s war with Japan had formally ended.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  141. Mr.Bean says:
    @Agathoklis

    Monkeydonians are fake AF and they’re just Bulgarians in denial, but I would say the Montenegrins have the title of being the fakest nation.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Znzn
  142. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Europe Europa

    I think even the distance between Russian and Ukrainian is probably greater than that of English and “Scots”.

    Russian and Ukrainian are linguistically closer than English and Gaelic.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  143. @Znzn

    The chief problem with Albanians is classic Islamic inbreeding which cratered their IQ
    They are not that different from Greeks genetically but still show on many IQ studies a very large gap between them

  144. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr.Bean

    A recent article on the situation in Montenegro:

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/montenegros-corrupt-party-socialists-killing-country-117821?page=0%2C1

    I’ve heard comments that the author of this piece was purged from Columbia University by the PC Sorosian types. It wouldn’t surprise if true.

  145. @Mr.Bean

    they’re just Bulgarians in denial

    This is oversimplifying and inaccurate

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Mr.Bean
  146. @Europe Europa

    OK, now I understand what you’re writing about. Of course mutual intelligibility is important, but is not considered anymore crucial in linguistic typology. Then, you don’t, implicitly, make a distinction between standard languages & dialects.

    As for mutual intelligibility, Hindi and Urdu are both based on the Khariboli dialect; they are not only mutually intelligible, but virtually indistinguishable on the level of ordinary speech. However, because Urdu, a language of Muslim community, has absorbed numerous Persian & Arabic words (plus some grammatical & stylistic features) – it becomes hard to understand for an educated Hindi speaker when the subject is more abstract (sciences, specialized intellectual discourse).

    English & Scots are both languages with “deep structure” (just like Russian, Polish, German,… and unlike Italian, Spanish or Latin… which are characterized by “shallow structure”, i.e. they’re phonologically transparent). In the case of “non-transparent” languages, deviation from the standard is easily seen in everyday, “uneducated” speech with regional variations. Scots, as far as I know, was never standardized as a separate language, and in the crucial period, most important writers like Dunbar or William Drummond, had been actually “anglicizing” it.

    With regard to Slavic languages, you got 3 language groups: Western, South & Eastern (no North). Polish is in the Western Slavic area, along with Czech, Slovak,…. These languages have different grammar & vocabulary, but they have some things in common (I’m too lazy to write about them, you can see any book or site on Slavic languages linguistic typology); Ukrainian, Belarusian & Russian are Eastern Slavic languages that have, typologically-structurally, some affinity with South Slavic languages, from Slovene to Bulgarian- but they form their own group (basically, what’s most important are verbs & nouns).

    Be as it may, Max Weinreich’s dictum remains the ultimate identifier: A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

  147. @Korenchkin

    Epigon made a good summary of it a while back

    There were actual ethnic Serbs dispersed throughout the region in towns, while the northern part of Vardar/Strymon Macedonia around Skopje and Skopje Holy Mount was medieval Serb land – Old Srbija, the seat of late kings and emperor.

    The eastern part are Bulgarians, including Strumica and present-day Zaev.

    The third group are SlavoMacedonians who were closest to now de facto extinct Slavs of Greece.

  148. Mr.Bean says:
    @Mikhail

    The story of MNE is not over, and their identity could easily shift to a Serbian(thus pro-Russian) one once again. They have no objective segment of separate identity, like the Bosniaks™(Islam) or Croats(Roman Catholicism) have to separate them from Serbs. Also, territory of contemporary Montenegro has been under Ottoman(Muslim) rule approximately as long as Serbia proper was.

    Map:Number of years former Yugoslav territories have been under Ottoman rule

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Mikhail
  149. Mr.Bean says:
    @Korenchkin

    Oversimplifying yes, but overall accurate. There is a significant historical Serbian(and other) presence there, alongside the Bulgarian one, but the Bulgarian ethnic identity is dominant and always was, save for maybe a 100 years of medieval times or so. 60% of them are more closer to Bulgarian identity and 20% to Serbian one, and these are Serbian data(from KSCS period). And I say this as a Serb. Tho I’m a pro-Bulgarian Serb, as a Serb can be I guess.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  150. @Europe Europa

    No one writes in Scots

    Irvine Welsh tried to write Trainspotting in Scottish. Apparently there’s more:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots-language_literature

    Some seem to think it’s a separate language:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  151. @Mr.Bean

    Bodin is that you? They shoah’d you on twitter so now you come here to post maps and facts? 😀
    Nice to see you man

  152. @peterAUS

    While they argue with each other … here’s the latest billboards they’ve got all over Belgrade. You may understand what it says. Share with your friends down under. They can’t even offer jobs to their own but they want to import this lot.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  153. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It would be equally if not more fruitful if you were to elucidate just how the Hetmanate state somehow mitigated against the development of independent statehood and a national identity for the Ukrainians distinct from that of the Russians? If so, then you might also try to explain exactly why it was so brutally destroyed in 1775?

    • Replies: @jony
    , @Rattus Norwegius
  154. @Europe Europa

    From 2001 to 2006 in preparation for the referendum Montenegro recieved loads of cash from USAID to help rig the election (at it’s peak it was higher then what Israel was receiving at the time)
    Even with all of this, it was still within the margin of error, they needed 55% it was 55.5% for independence (no recounts either afaik)
    Afterwards the political leaders promised ties with Serbia would not be broken, just like they promised they would not join NATO (this was the platform the ruling party ran on during the last elections)

    Source:
    https://www.usaid.gov/sites/default/files/documents/1863/USAID_Montenegro%20Partnership%20and%20Progress1.pdf

    This idea that Montenegrins were jumping to tear away from Serbia in 2006 is mostly a Croatian meme

  155. Znzn says:

    Wasn’t there a Kingdom of Montenegro back in WW1?

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  156. Znzn says:
    @Mr.Bean

    Aren’t Dutch just Germans in denial?

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  157. Znzn says:
    @Mr.Bean

    Why didn’t the Turks ever occupy the Illyrian coast? I mean Venice can’t be that powerful can it?

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  158. @Europe Europa

    I think even the distance between Russian and Ukrainian is probably greater than that of English and “Scots”.

    It’s not greater.

    The difference is that “Ukraine” is officially a real country according to international documents, and so its government pushes an invented “Ukrainian” language down the populace’s throat, all the while changing their so-called “language” every year to be ever so slightly different that Russian.

    If Scotland gained independence, I’m sure they would force people on TV and in education to speak an insane bastardized “authentic Scots language that is totally not at all like English, no way” too.

  159. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Your summation of the Rusyn/Ukrainian historical encounter is painted in the broadest of strokes. If you’re really interested in the history and culture of the Rusyns in Slovakia you need to acquaint yourself with the great literary figure of Mykola Mushinka. He is the greatest ethnologist and folklorist of the region who considers himself a Ukrainian, although he is open minded to those that just consider themselves to be “Rusyn”. I remember once reading about how he first realized that his ethnicity was bound to that of the larger Ukrainian nation, when his poor grandmother would read parts of Shevchenko’s Kobzar to him as a child. He knew from then on that he was a Ukrainian. A summary of his views can be read at the bottom of this Wikipedia article about him:

    Отже, я вважаю себе русином, бо такими були мій дід, прадід і все населення Русі. Та одночасно вважаю себе українцем, бо належу до того народу, який остаточно сформував себе національно під новою назвою у ХІХ—ХХ століттях.


    uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мушинка_Микола_Іванович

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  160. AP says:
    @Europe Europa

    English and “Scots” are not. I think even the distance between Russian and Ukrainian is probably greater than that of English and “Scots”.

    Ukraine was part of Poland for centuries and, just as the English language acquired a lot of French words due to the Norman invasion, the Ukrainian language is loaded with Polish words. It actually has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. However its pronunciation and grammar are closer to Russian (though not identical – Ukrainian retained the old Slavic vocative tense that in Russian was mostly lost and only exists in expressions).

    For example yes/no are tak/nie in Polish, tak/nee in Ukrainian, and da/nyet in Russian.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
  161. @anonymous coward

    The difference is that “Ukraine” is officially a real country according to international documents, and so its government pushes an invented “Ukrainian” language down the populace’s throat, all the while changing their so-called “language” every year to be ever so slightly different that Russian.

    • Agree: AP, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
  162. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    It’s not greater.

    You are wrong as you are 99%of the time.

  163. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The Ukrainophiles of Slovakia are a very vibrant community. There’s a Ukrainian museum in Svidnik along with Ukrainian festivals including a major league one during the summer months that’s been going on for decades. You can read hundreds of articles about this large community here:

    https://zakarpattya.net.ua/Special/Autors/101

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  164. Mr.Bean says:
    @Znzn

    So? The unification process started in 1913 when Serbia and MNE reached each other’s borders.

  165. Mr.Bean says:
    @Znzn

    Unrelated to the topic. But the combination of Venice and other maritime European powers prevented the Ottomans from controlling the Adriatic coast, yes.

  166. Mr.Bean says:
    @Znzn

    Some would say so, tho the religious and linguistic differences between the Dutch and the Germans, and even between Germans themselves are far greater than the differences(which practically don’t exist) between Montenegrins, Herzegovinians, and the rest of Serbs.

  167. @anonymous coward

    The difference is that “Ukraine” is officially a real country according to international documents

    For what it’s worth, Ukranian Socialist Soviet Republic was a founding member of the United Nations in 1945 as a separate entity with its own seat, as well as being a member of the USSR.

  168. @Mr. Hack

    And, only an afterthought: all peoples, however rich their folklore may be, need to move away from it as their defining image in the “world”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  169. jony says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Brutal? It was and efficient and bloodless – like the first Spetsnaz operation.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  170. Mr.Bean says:
    @reiner Tor

    The term Montenegro originates in the late 15th century, so it’s not medieval. The region was called Zeta in the medieval period and was the core of Serbia in the early and high Middle Ages. And yes, it was always Serbian.

  171. Mr.Bean says:
    @Znzn

    The youth in MNE is mostly nationalistic, thus pro-Serbian. The older generations are pro-Commie(Titoist), ergo separatist and pro-NATO.

  172. Mr. Hack says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And what do you propose to redefine this folkloric image?

  173. @Europe Europa

    Scots are a mixture of Picts, a people about whom little is known, Irish Celts (the Scotti were from Ireland, founded the Dalriada kingdom), Norse, Normans, Anglo-Saxons, even Cumbrian Welsh.

  174. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Rusyn identity straddles Slovakia and Ukraine, it is a continuum. In a way, we both claim them. The reason Rusyn identity and culture blossoms in Slovakia is because it is a genuinely interesting culture with a great folk tradition. Rusyns like to be seen as being different than ‘just Ukrainians’, and historically the Rusyn identification (or Ruthenian) preceded the Ukrainian one.

    But my point was that there is an amount of pure economic adaptation – or opportunism. Rusyns in Slovakia are more prosperous and affluent than their second cousins across the border in Subcarpathia, that leads to the Subcarpathians wanting to be a part of it and if that means they gently adjust their identity from a generic Ukrainian to a Rusyn-Ukrainian (very common) they will do it.

    The key variable that you never address is that Ukraine has been an economic failure for about 25 years – yes, they serve macchiatos in Lviv and they don’t starve, life goes on. But the country is visibly not working well, the living standards are very substantially lower than among the neighbours, other than equally cursed Moldova. Blaming the past, from Bolsheviks or Kremlin to Yanukovitch is not a credible answer, there is something else dysfunctional in the Ukraine. I constantly challenge you to look inward, to try to take responsibility for Ukraine. Maidan was a step backward and it has cost Ukraine dearly, so was the infamous ‘Orange’ revolution. How many clownish Maidans can a country afford? The Subcarpathians are voting with their feet and adopting the Rusyn identity once they leave to disassociate themselves from Kiev. Why do you think that is?

    • Replies: @AP
  175. peterAUS says:
    @Mr.Bean

    ….Concerning “them”, we could argue that “they” have been in power to influence the Balkan theater of the world since the Anglo-Saxon powers took over the world domination game..

    .
    My point exactly.
    Something Serbs are, apparently, unable to grasp, for SOME reason(s).

    …Jasenovac and the whole WWII experience also has a part in it,..

    Feels that way.

    One interesting hypothesis for the lack of Serbian anti-Semitism isn’t the “uncomfortable” part of it(Serbs, after all waged a “mini-World War” against NATO, and feel no shame about it), but rather that the the whole inherently anti-Semitic Christian mythology has been replaced by Kosovo mzthos and national mythology within the Serbian national character(Branković replaced Judas, Kniaz Lazar replaced Jesus etc.)

    An interesting point.
    I still stand by “Jasenovac and 800 000”. Awfully similar to “Auschwitz and 6 000 000”. Or, the latest one, “Srebrenica and 8000”.

    It’s interesting to watch that the disputing the first is met with extreme hostility by Serb side (those who actually do think, mind you). At the same time, the third is also met with plenty of hostility, for opposite reason, naturally.
    The second appears rather fixed as it is. I wonder, not, who benefits from it.
    Not Serbs, looks like it.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  176. Epigon says:

    LMAO at the comments in this thread.

    1. No, the Jews have absolutely nothing to do with Vatican’s century long attempts at expansion in the Balkans, culminating with their “Illyrian department” and 16th/17th century dictionaries for Jesuits Catholicizing and Uniating Serbs.

    Jews have nothing to do with “liberal” German strain of politics, such as Marx, Engels, Hegel, von Naumann etc. – who all detested Serbs on a pathological level.

    No, Jews have nothing to do with Habsburg persecution and discrimination leveled against the Orthodox.

    No, Jews have nothing to do with Freemason conspiracies and worthless scum in Serbia. Neither do Jews have anything to do with Yugocommunists, who were basically an ideological offshoot of Croatian Jacobins and whose ideology revolved around anti-Serb policies and annihilation of Serbs outside of 1877 Serbia borders.
    Fun fact – a rather high ranking Jew Moshe Piyade proposed an autonomous province for Serbs in Croatia and elsewhere outside of Serbia – he was shut down by “Serb” Communists.

    Framing Jews for CIA+BND operation against SFRY, the German and Vatican extensive lobbying in 1991, the EEC Brioni meeting toppling UN Founding charter and Helsinki Accords…

    But ESPECIALLY! framing Jews as the culprits for Mormon, Baptist and Methodist US intelligence and military – really low-brow.

    In reality, Serbia was arguably the most Jew-friendly nation of Europe in 1850.-1920.

    2. Serbia is a occupied country since 2000, 1944 or 1903, depending on how you define sovereignity. Post-2000, less than a year after NATO finished the decade long campaign of Serb extermination across SFRY, Serbia had 180 Euroatlanticist compradors in the Parliament, out of a total of 250.
    By 2007, it was an adjunct member of NATO, in 2008 the EUAA was in power. Military drills with USA and NATO were taking place since 2004, the 2004 pogrom was ignored, military reform saw abolition of draft, AAA and vast quantities of weapons, divisions reduced to brigades. All the way to 2012, it was ran into ground by a host of non-Serb, half-Serb and Titoist-descended Euroatlanticist scum.
    The decay went so far that anti-Serb Montenegrin nationalists were embedded at Universities and media. I am not kidding, they actually abolished state control of curriculum and textbooks, as a consequence – Croats and Germans control all print business.

    Croat and Western capital bought the country and bled it dry. Banks were the first, liquidated.

    As much as 50 billion Euros was extracted from the country in the Privatisation/Euroatlanticist period.

    Caught CIA accomplices (Perisic handing documents to CIA agent) were Chiefs of Staff, the Intelligence was run by Stanisic and Simatovic – you guessed it, Wikipedia proved them CIA agents as well.

    3. The lesbian certain individuals quote is a Western imposed control valve. She is not alone in her role, several other members of the ruling coalition are bona fide American operatives.
    No one voted for her, no one can topple them, they are a constant feature since 2000 coup of all governments.
    The people in charge in West perfectly understand who Vucic is and what his true beliefs and goals (Medakovic, Avramov, Kalajic etc) are – but they also appreciate his pacification and development of Serbia. For the moment.

    4. All of this protesting in Montenegro is far more sinister and complex than is being represented. But ultimately irrelevant for the world at large. And I would advise the foreigners against trying to understand it.
    Montenegrins are historical opportunistic scum, tribal and nepotistic loudmouths who leeched of Serbia until they found a more lucrative host.

    A non factor in WW1, 1920, WW2, but a huge source of Titoist occupiers of Serbia: even worse – most of organized crime is run by Montenegrins, for a long time.

    For those persistent and interested – do some research and discover just how many Orthodox lived in 1920 Montenegro, how many military casualties did they suffer in WW1, how large was their economy, and how all these compared to Serbs and Serbia.

    The endgame is not to legitimise CPC NGO retards, but to create an Autonomous Montenegrin Church within SOC akin to Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Moscow Patriarchate. The head of Montenegro “Serb” Church is an Ecumenist, a tool of the ruling party and a Vatican pupil.
    He is part of the Western circle in SOC and is a persona non grata in Russia and ROC.

    The other aspect of Montenegrin Serbs is that there are 29% of them, and they are equally split between actual Serbs and SINOs, who still worship Tito, Yugoslavism etc.

    I can’t wait for the angry reactions of other Serbs here – but if you don’t trust me, the upcoming 2020 Montenegro elections and 2021 population census will remove any doubt.
    Even though 2006-2020 results should have done that long time ago.

    TLDR – Please leave Serbs and Serbia alone, ignore us, we are the historical leaders in negative selection, dysgenic events and trends since 1903.

  177. @Commentator Mike

    The fact Trainspotting is written largely in Scots rather than Standard English backs up my point that Scots and Standard English aren’t massively different. English people with no prior knowledge of Scots only find Trainspotting mildly difficult to read at most.

    I would doubt a Russian with no prior knowledge of Polish could understand most of a novel written in Polish. A Russian would probably have a better chance of understanding a Ukrainian novel but even then I get the impression that the gap is larger than Standard English and Scots.

  178. @Epigon

    The other aspect of Montenegrin Serbs is that there are 29% of them

    Are you sure their census is credible, given everything else you listed

    • Replies: @Epigon
  179. Epigon says:

    There is simply no point in debating Croats and/or Westerners online.

    Our Volk is terminally ill, corrupted and gangrene-ridden. Words are irrelevant and pointless.

    Before any successful settling of score, the domestic front has to be sorted out.
    Fellow Serbs would do well if they refrained from correcting every single nonsense and bullshit the miscreants spout here or anywhere else online.
    Knee-jerk reactions on FB and Twitter are pure cringe, especially when (most of the time) they are incorrect.

    However easily disproven, torn apart by primary sources and non-Serb contemporaries – let it go.
    I have come to regret bursting into this shitshow.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  180. Epigon says:
    @Korenchkin

    Yes, it is.
    Look up detailed results of elections. Focus on Serb majority and Serb plurality areas where DPS and Milo won.
    Or where the Montenegrin, pro-EU, pro-Titoism opposition won significant vote.

    No point in ignoring the reality.
    How many of the “protestors” are former and/or current voters of Milo and DPS? Publicly one thing – in private and on ballot, census – something else entirely.

    LARP on a massive scale. It pains me a great deal that they managed to trick Serbs, just like they sold the “anti-Ottoman never occupied bulwark”, “Serb Sparta” and “Mojkovac” meme.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  181. @Epigon

    Seems rather gloomy, but I suppose the facts will be laid out by 2021 either way

  182. Epigon says:

    It is time to stop living in fantasy land, adopt objective outlook on reality and life, value hard facts and numbers – ESPECIALLY in gauging statesmen, politicians and their tenures.

    If only I could murder “slobodarstvo” and Yugoslavism….

  183. Art Deco says:

    Montenegrins are one of the fakest nationalities on the planet. In the words of one friend, Montenegro “is a Serbian Belarus, except imagine that 50% of Moscow comes from Belarus 3 generations back.” The movement to join Serbia in 1918 was Serbian nationalist to its core, even though Montenegro’s current elites now portray it as a Serbian “occupation.” Their separate nationality identity was created under Tito,

    Montenegro existed as a principality for four centuries before the formation of Yugoslavia. There’s nothing remarkable about local particularism. The Swiss German cantons aren’t itching to join the Reich.

    And it doesn’t matter how often you strike these poses, they still don’t want you in Kiev. Suck it up.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  184. @Philip Owen

    Yet you overlooked the fundamental issue: language.

    We know that English is basically a fusion of two languages, Teutonic Anglo-Saxon & Norman French (with elements of Celtic, Danish etc. languages, but that’s not the point). And, the language of Lowland Scots is essentially the same: Anglo-Saxon plus early French.

    Of course that Highlanders spoke Gaelic, but the language of culturally dominant Lowland Scots was, as far as records go, virtually the same (with regional varieties) in the 1300s, 1400s, 1500s,..and later. It was not imposed upon Lowland Scots- as it has been imposed upon Highland Scots & the Irish (and Welsh).

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  185. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr.Bean

    Agreed, in that something like this isn’t etched in stone. I believe the same applies to Ukraine.

    In Montenegro, there’s a sizeable number of non-ethnic Serbs and Montenegrins, consisting mostly of Albanians, Slavic Muslims (“Bosniak”) and Croats.

    According to a Serb friend of mine, who spends time in Montenegro, the Albanians there aren’t as nationalistic as the ones in Kosovo.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  186. Aidan Q says:

    E. Michael Jones sums up the situation nicely in an interview with Dr. Olsi Jazexhi:

    “This is the problem when you become a puppet of the American empire… Mike Pompeo is putting pressure on the president of Montenegro and now the president has nationalized all of the Orthodox churches in Montenegro. I see this as a step toward handing those churches over to Christian evangelicals so they can turn the country into a Protestant colony of the American empire.”

    https://culturewars.com/podcasts/the-american-empire-and-the-middle-east

    Nb: EMJ has a knack for calling stuff. Last year when it was announced Pete Buttigieg was running for president EMJ said Mayor Pete would get the nomination because he is the perfect globalist candidate and the oligarchs would make sure he wins. He’s punched all the right tickets: Harvard, Rhodes, naval intelligence, McKinsey, gay.

    Curiously, Mayor Pete grew up a few houses down from EMJ in South Bend and EMJ has written and spoken on what a little weirdo Mayor Pete is.

  187. AP says:
    @Beckow

    if that means they gently adjust their identity from a generic Ukrainian to a Rusyn-Ukrainian (very common) they will do it.

    Sure, there are Rusyn-Ukrainians, Galician-Ukrainians, Bavarian-Germans, Volga-Russians, etc.

    The key variable that you never address is that Ukraine has been an economic failure for about 25 years

    Indeed.

    yes, they serve macchiatos in Lviv and they don’t starve, life goes on.

    Also R&D.

    But the country is visibly not working well, the living standards are very substantially lower than among the neighbours, other than equally cursed Moldova. Blaming the past, from Bolsheviks or Kremlin to Yanukovitch is not a credible answer

    Accurate diagnosis is necessary for effective cure.

    In 1991 there were three approaches taken:

    1. Commit to joining the West. This is what Ukraine’s neighbors Poland, Slovakia and Romania did.

    2. Commit to joining Russia. This is what Ukraine’s neighbor Belarus did.

    3. Join neither, and try to play one off against the others (that way no one can tell the elites to stop stealing so much). This is what Ukraine and Moldova did.

    Which was most effective? Clearly the westward orientation.

    In 1990, Ukraine, Romania, Belarus and Poland were about equal in terms of GDP PPP. Since then Poland and Romania have shot far ahead of Belarus, which has done better than Ukraine. But Belarus is about as close to Ukraine as it is to Poland:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RO-BY-PL

    Clearly Belarus screwed up by not following Poland, and Ukraine screwed up even more by trying to play both sides.

    Maidan fixed this. A side was chosen. After a hard 2 years transition, Ukraine has seen solid economic growth. Prior to Maidan, its economy grew .1% and 0%. Now its at 3% – 4%. It is growing faster than the economies of Russia and Belarus. In terms of Ukraine’s per capita GDP PPP compared to Russia’s, Ukraine has erased several years of falling behind and is now at 2011. It is doing better now than if it just kept growing at .1% or .5% every year as it was doing under Yanukovich.

    You will say times are different now, the boat was missed for Western integration, no more easy aid or whatever. Well, Ukraine is growing faster than Belarus. Despite having a low-grade war and economic problems with Russia (much more so than in the case of Belarus) and a more corrupt government.

    Ukrainian people see this. New poll shows they are more optimistic about their future than at any time since 2004:

    Source:

    http://kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=888&page=1

    Those who live there know more than does the Slovak Sovok 🙂

    Maidan was a step backward and it has cost Ukraine dearly

    That’s your fantasy. I saw an old post of yours from 2016* where your words were ” There will be no growth in Ukraine for years. What would the economy grow from?” LOL. Growth started that year, and continues.

    Your fantasies and wishful thinking (as a Sovok you are so bitter when a country turns its back on its Sovok legacy) adjust a little to reality, but not much.

    *It’s cool that on unz one can quickly access posts by year. The Russophile predictions for Ukraine from 2015-2016 are very funny.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  188. @Bardon Kaldian

    A shared language has never been very important to Scots identity. There have been times when the territory of Scotland contains speakers of Scots Gaelic, Cumbrian Welsh, Northumbrian English (later consolidated by court and legal use), Norse and Norn (another Nordic dialect), not to mention lawyers and priests using Latin and the court using French. They were all Scots.

    Scottishness really is a civic identity as it has had to integrate Gaelic (often Catholic) and English speakers (extreme protestant) until quite recently.

    In Wales, nationalists argue that a nation is defined by language, religion and a shared history, language being the main factor. The Scots cannot exist if they take this view. Scotland was always about shared institutions such as kingship, law and later education. An early history of higher education (not so true about England) was probably an important differentiator. The SNP argument that Scottish identity is civic is real; it is not just virtue signalling. There is rather more blood and soil about the Welsh and the Irish nationalists though it is expressed mostly politely these days.

    So arguments about the linguistic differences between English and Scots as a proxy for Russian/Polish Vs Ukrainian are of limited use. Kiev did have a patriarchy before Moscow but no civic institutions emerged. So there was no country in the Scots sense. Ukraine isn’t Wales or Ireland either where there is a deep and clear history of ethnic difference (clearer in myth than fact – as Anatoly observed there is a lot of Celt in the English). Ukraine as it stands now is a new thing barely out of adolescence. That doesn’t make being Ukrainian any less valid than being Scots or Serb. Europe pre 1914 was full of submerged nations. Formation of national identity did not end with the collapse of Rome.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  189. @Mr. Hack

    Nobody active in the Rusyn movement, in Transcarpathia or anywhere, pays any attention to Getsko. except as comic relief. One wag noted that he is the president of only perhaps his own apartment, depending on his wife’s mood that day.

    Mr. Hack must be an American, because he is well-informed of individual facts yet fails to grasp the gestalt underlying them. Rusyns are proud of their identity as the fourth East Slavic nation. Like mountain people everywhere, they are less nationalistic than neighboring flatlanders and reject assimilation into the flatlanders’ nation-building projects. Compare the Hmong and Karens in Southeast Asia or even the residents of Appalachia during the Whiskey Rebellion.

    The overwhelming majority of people in the Rusyn movement are comfortable with, or at least resigned to, living within Ukraine as a supranational state. What they object to is, first, being told that they are part of the Ukrainian nation, and second, Kiev’s unwillingness to give their region enough autonomy to benefit from its proximity to Central Europe– which goes hand-in-hand with its kleptocratic destruction of the natural environment in Transcarpathia.

    Valery Padjak’s objection to the Rusynophobia of the U.S.-funded Radio Liberty is worthwhile further reading.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  190. @Philip Owen

    My knowledge of Scottish history is limited, but, from what I know, things are different. Marx wrote, perhaps in “Capital”, pt.1 (or in some other work) about duchess of Sunderland (or some other title) who simply didn’t care for Highlanders & was glad to clear them from the face of earth; there are numerous other instances where Lowland Scots politically-culturally identified with the English & treated Gaelic speaking Highlanders as another “race” (or at least annoying neighbors who do not belong to their kind of people, but could, perhaps be “civilized”).

    Welsh were, of course, submitted to brutal language suppression, especially in the 19th C.

  191. @Epigon

    I was wondering why it took you so much time to bother commenting on this thread (maybe you wait to see what everyone else writes?).

    Jews have nothing to do with “liberal” German strain of politics, such as Marx, Engels, Hegel, von Naumann etc. – who all detested Serbs on a pathological level.

    Marx and Engels were Jews though. Shouldn’t forget about Benjamin Disraeli as a driver of UK anti-Serb policy though …

    Fun fact – a rather high ranking Jew Moshe Piyade proposed an autonomous province for Serbs in Croatia and elsewhere outside of Serbia – he was shut down by “Serb” Communists.

    Sources? Something else besides Avramov, Kalajic and etc?

    Framing Jews for CIA+BND operation against SFRY, the German and Vatican extensive lobbying in 1991, the EEC Brioni meeting toppling UN Founding charter and Helsinki Accords…

    But ESPECIALLY! framing Jews as the culprits for Mormon, Baptist and Methodist US intelligence and military – really low-brow.

    Madeleine Albright. Wesley Clark. Warren Zimmerman. Lawrence Eagleburger, Bernard Henri Levy. Bernard Kouchner, and etc.?

    Not to mention “Western” media which everyone knows all too well who really controls it?

    Sure, Jews weren’t the only ones attacking the Serb nation of the 1990’s, but they were certainly a leading and key factor with their elite population in USA, France and other Western countries.

    In reality, Serbia was arguably the most Jew-friendly nation of Europe in 1850.-1920.

    True, a Jew from Serbia was the first to sign the Balfour Declaration on Serbia’s behalf, which made Serbia the first country in the world to recognize it.

    The decay went so far that anti-Serb Montenegrin nationalists were embedded at Universities and media.

    I was confused by that at first, but it makes perfect sense as to why Ivica Dacic and other ministers of Serbia’s government are going on about how Serbia is now free from Montenegrin domination and tribes/clans/mafias.

    I am not kidding, they actually abolished state control of curriculum and textbooks, as a consequence – Croats and Germans control all print business.

    This made me want to cut my eyes out when I learnt about this. It was only until late last year alone that a Croat HDZ financier was financing school books in Serbia about how “ancient Croatia” in 10th century had almost NDH borders with Serbia and how there were also some good sides to the Janissary “blood tax” of the Ottoman Empire …

    The people in charge in West perfectly understand who Vucic is and what his true beliefs and goals (Medakovic, Avramov, Kalajic etc) are – but they also appreciate his pacification and development of Serbia. For the moment.

    I agree with that take. It’s hard to believe that Vucic has genuinely “repented” from his hardcore nationalist takes of 1990’s (kill 100 Muslims for 1 Serb and most of Croatia is rightfully ancient Serbian land) and role as information minister in Milosevic’s government.

    Montenegrins are historical opportunistic scum, tribal and nepotistic loudmouths who leeched of Serbia until they found a more lucrative host.

    How did these parasites hijack themselves onto the Serb nation then?

    After all, in the medeival ages, Montenegro wasn’t anywhere as near as toxic for the Serb nation, unless I’m missing something then?

    The other aspect of Montenegrin Serbs is that there are 29% of them, and they are equally split between actual Serbs and SINOs, who still worship Tito, Yugoslavism etc.

    I can’t wait for the angry reactions of other Serbs here – but if you don’t trust me, the upcoming 2020 Montenegro elections and 2021 population census will remove any doubt.

    Well, Vucic also said that there are only 28-29% of Serbs in Montenegro and the goal is to cut the number of Serbs down below 15% for the next census of Montenegro.

    Listening to what Vucic actually says and does (as a result of his rule) is quite refreshing and it helps to filter through a lot of bullshit since almost all Serbian language media is otherwise worse than worthless (much media is owned by foreigners from Germany, USA and etc). This was what actually got me to treat your views and attitudes seriously.

    My take isn’t angry at all, and I think your comments are good in that they bring a well-informed and nuanced perspective, although you overdo it with your takes on a few things, but other Serbs are much worse with that.

  192. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mike in Boston

    Mr. Hack must be an American, because he is well-informed of individual facts yet fails to grasp the gestalt underlying them.

    The “gestalt” of the underlying facts for the vast majority of Rusyns living in Zakarpattya is that they’re totally content living their lives as Ukrainians. There are over 1 million Ukrainians today living in this oblast, and this indicates that the vast majority of its citizens that may have identified themselves (or more accurately their great grandparents generation) as Rusyns in the early 20th century, are perfectly content today to call themselves Ukrainians. This would be a normal process, for at one time all Ukrainians were known as Rusyns, throughout the whole country.

    Mykola Mushinka sums up accurately how he and a million of his countrymen in Zakarpattya feel about their ethnic identification (read quotation of his in #164). Rusynism as a practical matter, an effort to create a nation where none exists, is solely the providence of a few employed scholars in the West and a few other paid political adventurers (like Padak) on the payroll of Hungary, Slovakia or Russia. The only good thing about this arrangement is that the different stripes of Rusynism are not able to coordinate their actions and are working at cross currents. As long as somebody is willing to pay the bill, Rusyinism will exist. The everyday Rusyns are content to know that they are Ukrainians, however with a vibrant local flavor including colorful traditions. The Mykola Mushinkas of the Rusyn world have ascended in dominance.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  193. @Epigon

    Our Volk is terminally ill, corrupted and gangrene-ridden. Words are irrelevant and pointless.

    This seems like you think everything is a lost cause …

    Before any successful settling of score, the domestic front has to be sorted out.

    True, which is why there is no rush with this. It’s just that most people don’t realize this and there are a large amount of provocations that Serbs are subjected to outside of Serbia which makes a war or mass violence happening possible (theoretically at least). Especially Bosnia and Kosovo.

    For me, the saddest thing though is the demographic decline of the Serb populations of Krajina-Slavonia and FBiH which made me deeply moved by Vucic’s visit to Mrkonjic Grad (Croats burned down the whole town and killed at least hundreds, if not thousands, of Serbs there in 1995) and Drvar along with his statements there.

    Honestly, my opinion is that if the domestic front can be solved properly, say Serbs get birth rate of 2.1 or above, more than half the struggle is already won, and in a few decades trash like Albanians of Kosovo will simply disappear and collapse due to their own rot and it may not even be necessary to massacre or ethnically cleanse them.

    Fellow Serbs would do well if they refrained from correcting every single nonsense and bullshit the miscreants spout here or anywhere else online.

    However easily disproven, torn apart by primary sources and non-Serb contemporaries – let it go.

    Why bother commenting on Karlin’s blog or Unz review to begin with? Why not just go and do something else in life?

  194. @Commentator Mike

    So just because some Liberal NGO’s operating in Serbia plant placards calling for Serb women to mix with migrants apparently means that Serbs are eager to be demographically replaced?

    It seems like you haven’t heard of the Mothers of Srebrenica, Mothers in Black, Natasha Kandic, Jelena Milic and other NGO trash …

    Anyway, here’s a positive example about how Serb “Chetniks” apparently drive away (lol) Liberal NGO trash (interesting for Bardon Kaldian asking in a previous thread how Chetniks would react to Globohomo btw):

    https://balkaninsight.com/2020/02/06/serbia-orders-activists-to-leave-after-confronting-chetniks/

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  195. @Mr. Hack

    I am not an expert in the field, but I know that Rusyins in Croatia identify themselves as Rusyns, with some connection to Ukrainians. The Croatian linguist of Rusyn heritage, Eugenija Barić, has published important works on the Rusyn language question & identity:

    http://knjige.ihjj.hr/knjiga/rusinski-jezik-u-procjepu-sadasnjosti-i-proslosti/16/

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  196. Mr.Bean says:
    @Mikhail

    Albanians in MNE are Muslims in the North, and Catholics in the South, so the Catholics might be a bit more tamed.

    There’s overall 25% non-Orthodox population in MNE, furthermore the Orthodox population is split among itself, making the tiny quasi-country virtually ungovernable without outside propping-up, and the decisions are dependent on the will of the Muslim/Albanian factor.

    Even if there was any segment of separate ethnic Montenegrin identity, in any circumstances, other than NATO domination, MNE would have to join Serbia in order to preserve itself against the Muslim/Albanian factor, but this way, there’s around 200k Montenegrin separatists, who consider themselves non-Serbs, and they surrounded by identical to them millions of Serbs on almost all sides. Given that these two groups are identical, I would say that their assimilation back into the rest of the Serbian nation is inevitable.

    I would say the same for Ukraine, but MNE case is much more certain and clear. Ukraine at least has some segment of separate identity, like language/dialect, Montenegro doesn’t have even that.

  197. Mr.Bean says:
    @peterAUS

    “Something Serbs are, apparently, unable to grasp, for SOME reason(s).”
    -What’s to grasp, nothing would be different if the Jews weren’t influential in US politics. Our problem is the Anglo-Saxon world domination, not Jewish one. Jews have no reason to hate the Serbs, nor to Serbs have a reason to hate the Jews.

    “I still stand by “Jasenovac and 800 000”. Awfully similar to “Auschwitz and 6 000 000”. Or, the latest one, “Srebrenica and 8000”.”
    -800 000 were killed in NDH total, not in Jasenovac alone. On the territory of NDH, 1/3 of the population were Serbs, today, on the same territory, 1/8 of the population are Serbs. tells you everything you need to know, and that Serbian grievances are legitimate, as Armenian ones are, for example.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  198. Mr.Bean says:
    @Art Deco

    So what if Montenegro existed as a principality, Serbs always had a multitude of states, and they do even today(RS,Serbia, Vojvodina etc.). Montenegro’s Serbian identity was never disputed. What does Yugoslavia have to do with this? You don’t actually consider Yugoslavia some Serbian state/entity?
    Btw, Montenegro was named “Montenegro and the Hills”(Црна Гора и Брда) until 1878, so there’s several regional identities there(Herzegovinian, Montenegrin etc.), plus quasi-ethnic, tribal, confessional, and so forth.

    Kiev not wanting Russians in for now, might be a thing, but Podgorica not wanting Serbia in was never a thing really, and obviously is not a thing today.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  199. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Thanks for that link. That’s good at least. I wonder if all those NGO workers have work permits or are working illegally. Perhaps they should all get deported.

  200. Mr. Hack says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    In the former Yugoslavia, as of 2011, there were about 14,000 Rusyns (half of which also identified as being Ukrainians too), slightly more than even in Ukraine. I see that another cottage industry of promoting their independent ethnicity is thriving there as well. One thing constant about the “evolution” of the separate “Rusyn nationalities” is that all of them are assimilating into the more dominant ethnos that they find themselves living amongst. How many are there today? I wish them all the luck in the world in promoting their own brand.

  201. Mr. Hack says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    In the former Yugoslavia, as of 2011, there were about 14,000 Rusyns, slightly more than even in Ukraine. I see that another cottage industry of promoting their independent ethnicity is thriving there as well. One thing constant about the “evolution” of the separate “Rusyn nationalities” is that all of them are assimilating into the more dominant ethnos that they find themselves living amongst. How many are there today? I wish them all the luck in the world in promoting their own brand.

  202. Mr. Hack says:

    Please delete #207. Thanks!

  203. AP says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I am not an expert in the field, but I know that Rusyins in Croatia identify themselves as Rusyns, with some connection to Ukrainians.

    “Rusyn” was the self-identification of all Eastern Slavs in western Ukraine, until the mid to late 19th century. With the help of Ukrainian nationalist emigres from the Russian Empire and promotion of mass literacy as “Ukrainians” by the Austrian authorities, Galicians transformed from Rusyns to Ukrainians (there was a parallel movement for them to change from Rusyns to Russians but this failed for various reasons, including greater linguistic distance).

    Eastern Slavs not directly under Vienna’s rule did not experience such Ukrainianization and retained the original Rusyn self-identity longer. Transcarpathia joined the Ukrainian SSR and those people became Ukrainians overwhelmingly (only 10,000 or so retain a primarily Rusyn national self-identity, for others it’s just a regional marker). Rusyn identity persisted beyond Ukraine’s borders, in Slovakia, former Yugoslavia, and among descendants of immigrants from Transcarpthia and even Galicia whose ancestors left before Ukrainianization.

    Standardization of Rusyn speech and construction of a Rusyn national identity different from Ukrainian is comparable to similar efforts in Moldova, and probably Macedonia (except if this happened only beyond the borders of these regions – that is, if Moldova joined Romania and people there became Romanians for whom “Moldova” was merely a regional identity, but Moldovan communities in Ukraine retained or created a separate Moldovan nationality with their own standardized language).

    The success of creating a Rusyn identity in Slovakia and in the Balkans means that if history were different – the Austrian authorities aggressively promoted a Rusyn orientation, efforts were made to standardize the Galician dialect into a Rusyn language, a national mythology was built around the medieval Galician kingdom – there would today be a Rusyn national (“Ruthenia” in English) of around 6.5 million people, with capital in Lviv, consisting of former Hapsburg East Slavic territories. Since the Galician dialect is much closer to Rusyn than is standard Ukrainian, it would be hard to imagine a different identity separate from the Galician one arising on the other side of the Carpathians.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  204. @AP

    This could be very well all true, but:

    1. Rusyn language standardization took place in royalist Yugoslavia in the 1920s, so there can hardly be influence of Austria-Hungary in these matters.

    2. in Communist Yugoslavia, Rusyns were put in the same category with Ukrainians until 1971., but they were not very pleased with that, so that after partial liberalization in the 70s, they were left free to choose their own national identification

    3. in fully sovereign Croatia, it would be advantageous for Croatian administration to have ties with such a big & populous country as Ukraine, so efforts were made in asking Rusyns if they could be willing to identify as Ukrainians. They refused to do so, and so they’re classified as before, as Rusyns.

    • Replies: @AP
  205. AP says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    1. Could have been influenced by White Russian emigres. Also, Vienna promoted the Ukrainian idea while Budapest promoted the Rusyn idea (in order to keep its East Slavs separate from the ones in Galicia). So East Slavs, including ones whose origins were in Galicia, were exposed to Rusyn ideas when they came into the Balkans.

    2. and 3. By then the Rusyn idea was fairly stable and could be self-directed. This also occurs among Rusyns in North America, who have their own Greek Catholic Church. Some East Slavs in the Balkans do identify as Ukrainians rather than Rusyns. I knew a family like that who had left Yugoslavia for the USA in the 1960s or 1970s. They joined the Ukrainian diaspora and were active in it.

  206. Mr. Hack says:

    Whatever the merits of an independent “Rusyn” nationality and any real desire to separate from being labeled Ukrainian, the movement should be looked at with some measure of suspicion. Besides the obvious self dealing culprits that are either grant eaters or political adventurists, it’s advantageous for the host countries where both Rusyns and Ukrainians live to keep them separated. Being disunited keeps either camp’s numbers down minimizing any special treatment necessitated including the provision of education in ones native language. As I pointed out earlier, the 14,000 (in 2001) Rusyns in the former Yugoslavia are evenly divided between those professing a separate Rusyn ethnicity and those espousing a Ukrainian orientation. Certain thresholds of population need to be met in order to provide books, instructors and schools, etc. It’s similar in Slovakia and Poland, too. It looks like the old “divide and conquer” is in play with the host countries waiting for the small groups to assimilate into the majority orientation. How many Rusyns are there today in the former Yugoslavia? They’re getting smaller and smaller in Slovakia every year.

  207. @AP

    Lol.. STILL doing the absurd fantasist linguist, lying, anti-historical BS, when it has been indisputably proven you can’t speak Russian or Ukrainian( can anybody not in the fantasistAP- Karlin “tag-team”, lol, who read that exchange claim that I am not 100 pc correct?)

    All you have done is promoted some irrelevant,obscure BS study, inevitably after reading for a few hours or days, proper studies saying the exact opposite…. Just standard “white is black” garbage

    Even the tak/nie comment shows staggering ignorance
    (not only a stupid comment, but one not remotely backed up by literature, movie, Internet, sung music habits of ukrop, where Polish influence is nil.

    .. And can you do it without crying to uncle Karlin to block me like a coward with him being particularly sensitive to use of the word “mir” around you

    • Troll: Mr. Hack
  208. peterAUS says:
    @Mr.Bean

    Yeah……..

    If/when you read up about “interesting people”, say, on Wikipedia, as for example Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Ben Bernanke, Martin Baron and Sheldon Adelson, you see them as Americans and not “something” else.

    You buy this quote

    Martin Baron (born October 24, 1954) is an American journalist

    and simply disregard this one:

    Baron was born to a Jewish family in Tampa, Florida.[2] His parents immigrated from Israel.

    Or see this:

    Sheldon Gary Adelson (pronounced /ˈædəlsən/; born August 4, 1933) is an American business magnate, investor, philanthropist, and political donor.

    But not:

    His father’s family was of Ukrainian Jewish and Lithuanian Jewish ancestry.

    You probably interact with a lot of people like you. Serbs who at least try to think what’s going on about. I guess they think/feel the same.
    That’s O.K.

    Promising, by the way. Not necessarily for your side, of course.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  209. Mr.Bean says:
    @peterAUS

    So Jews are very influential in the US, what else is new?
    Did the US behave differently when they were ran primarily by Anglo elites, not really. Propping-up Islamic and (neo)Ottoman interests in the Balkans is an old British strategy.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  210. peterAUS says:
    @Mr.Bean

    So Jews are very influential in the US, what else is new?

    For you, and almost all of (thinking/writing) Serbs, nothing new. Just nothing.

    For some of us watching from aside what’s been happening to your people this time, just another little confirmation of some, say, interesting things.

    Let’s move on.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  211. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Europe Europa

    there is almost no mutual intelligibility between the two.

    Pivo/Piwo = Beer. 😉

  212. Mr.Bean says:
    @peterAUS

    Confirmation of what exactly?

  213. @reiner Tor

    Don’t fool yourself. Hungarians are merely pawns. If their rump country weren’t so small, the overlords would have created ethnic minorities (other than Jews) there as well.

    I would be surprised if you didn’t feel equally cheated by the development of national identities in the “Kingdom of Hungary” district of Austria.

    But for the moment, Hungary is one of the few countries in the world where everyone is everybody else’s cousin, possibly including both their parents.

  214. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Few points:

    You 3 choices are very simplistic: it is not West or Russia or straddle. It is where you are geographically and where different aspects of life in your country fit. Ukraine is too far east, too big, was too integrated with Russian economy, and now is too poor to join EU and benefit from no-longer offered subsidies. This is not something that can be changed by marching or yelling at squares. It is an attribute of the situation, in other words a reality that Ukraine has to learn how to live with.

    Take Hungary, Slovakia and Czechia: they are an inherent part of Europe, one could argue they are the ultimate, core Europe with Austria and Germany – it doesn’t get any more ‘European’ than Prague or Budapest, and that was also true pre-1989. They have also assiduously kept good relations and economic links with Russia. Ukraine is an eastern borderland of Europe, logistically challenging, culturally different. It has to adapt to that reality. You can’t have revolutions against geography.

    Post-Maidan Ukraine chose not to do it. That was a huge fatal mistake. Poland can maybe get away with it because it is further west, richer, and benefitted from massive EU subsidies that are no longer available. But Ukraine can’t, every EU visitor has been telling you that for years.

    You constantly cherrypick numbers, if you look at 1991-2019 period the ‘growth’ between Maidan and now has been miserable, it is still below where it was in early Yanukovitch years. I was right in 2016, and I am right now – Ukraine is bouncing along the bottom, so far down that just inertia will mean some minimal growth, but is that really a good economy? The lost economic growth that Ukraine has suffered because of hostility with Russia has made Ukraine much poorer.

    Finally, what ‘research’ do they do in Lviv? What breakthrough products are about to emerge? Putting a steel sheet on an old lorry and calling it a tank? You are stuck in the past – the constant emotional ‘sovok’ this or that only shows that you don’t live in the present. I have no idea what it means, you might as well call me a coolie or carbonari. Are you even capable of moving on? You do know it is 2020?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  215. @Mikhail

    Europe Europa did not say anything to the contrary. Gaelic is belongs to the Celtic language family, while English is Germanic. What is being debated is wheter the Germanic Scots is a dialect of English, or an language in it’s own right.

  216. @Mr. Hack

    There can be internecine conflict, without this leading to seperate ‘nationhood’. Ofcourse this does not mean that Ukraine is not a nation of it’s own. The same goes for geographic and political seperation.

  217. AP says:
    @Beckow

    It is where you are geographically and where different aspects of life in your country fit. Ukraine is too far east, too big, was too integrated with Russian economy,

    Kiev and Odessa are closer to Warsaw than to Moscow. Lviv is closer to Berlin than to Moscow.
    Ukraine is about Poland’s population. And Ukraine now is more integrated with the European economy than with Russian one.

    Romania is further from Europe than is Ukraine. It had about half of Ukraine’s population. Yet is chose a Westward path and benefited almost as much as did Poland. Certainly much more than did Belarus which chose a path of Russian integration.

    now is too poor to join EU

    Choosing not to integrate with the West in 1991 had consequences. Making the right decision in 2014 also did. Ukraine has reversed its 25 year trend and is now improving relative to Belarus and Russia and is projected to do so for years to come.

    You constantly cherrypick numbers, if you look at 1991-2019 period the ‘growth’ between Maidan and now has been miserable, it is still below where it was in early Yanukovitch years.

    You are the one cherry-picking numbers. Under Yanukovich the economy rebounded his first full year in office – in 2011. The rebound began in 2010 before his election. But in 2012 and 2013 economic growth stopped ait just above 0%). Then he was overthrown, there was a 2 year collapse, and growth has been a solid ~3% or above since. GDP per capita now surpasses what it had been prior to Maidan and continues to grow at a rate that is higher than it had been under Yanukovich.

    Remember when you wrote in 2016: “There will be no growth in Ukraine for years. What would the economy grow from?“. 🙂

    I was right in 2016, and I am right now

    We see above your grip on reality when it comes to Ukraine. Beckow fantasy – “no growth in Ukraine for years.” Reality: 2.855%, in 2017 2.916%, in 2018 3.86%, in 2019 will be also a little below 4%.

    But cling to your fantasy. Cling hard.

    just inertia will mean some minimal growth

    Under Yanukovich GDP per capita was even lower and growth was even lower.

    As for “minimal growth” – in 2016 Ukraine’s GDP per capita grew 2.855%, in 2017 2.916%, in 2018 3.86%, in 2019 will be also a little below 4%.

    But you claimed “There will be no growth in Ukraine for years. What would the economy grow from?”

    LOL.

    So in your world 3.86% GDP growth per capita is “minimal.”

    At the same time Belarus GDP per capita declined -2.565% in 2016, grew 2.567% in 2017, and grew 3.17% in 2018. It’s going to be about 2.5% in 2019. Sticking with Russia (which itself has been stagnant) is not a winning long-term strategy for Belarus.

    Slovakia’s economy is much higher than Ukraine’s but it’s growth rate has been lower each year than has been Ukraine’s starting in 2016. Would you claim Slovakia has experienced less than minimal growth in the last few years?

    Finally, what ‘research’ do they do in Lviv?

    Examples:

    https://business-in-ukraine.online/swedish-telecommunications-giant-ericsson-opens-r-d-office-in-lviv/

    Swedish telecommunications giant Ericsson opens R & D office in Lviv.

    https://lpnu.ua/en/event/2018/opening-laboratory-electric-drives-and-automation-systems-siemens-ag-concern

    On September 4, 2018, a new educational and research laboratory for electric drives and automation systems equipped by Siemens AG Concern will be opened on the basis of the Institute of Power Engineering and Control Systems in Lviv Polytechnic National University.

    Construction of Lviv’s’ IT Park has begun:

    http://www.outsourcingportal.eu/en/construction-of-it-park-to-start-in-lviv-this-autumn

    It’s a $180 million dollar project. Relative to population, in Moscow terms it would be like a $2.7 billion project.

    :::::::::::::::

    Ukraine moves forward. Beckow is still stuck in bitter Sovok fantasies.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  218. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Once again, the defender of “Truth, Justice and the Ukrainian Way”, “Ukro-Man” has convincingly slayed his arch enemy “Sovok Man” in a contest of wit and intellectual acumen. Will Sovok Man hide under his rock in the fabled Slovakian hinter lands until he undergoes further retraining from his Muscovite handlers, to defend Central’s new orders? Stay tuned for more. 🙂


    Kudos Ukro-Man!

    • Thanks: AP
  219. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    Putting a steel sheet on and old lorry and calling it a tank

    Take it easy there. 🙂 Making fun of the legendary Pryanik is pretty low. That was something that volunteers made, somebody’s boyfriend essentially with no engineering experience. 🙂

    Ukraine has an impressive weapons industry. Neptune was just completed and could become a game changing weapon.

    And economic improvement is clearly visible (that they are so low on the GDP scale is a strange anomaly). Btw, Russia and the EU are not everything (and Russia is still a significant trading partner), the world is big. Trade with Turkey and China has exploded. This is partly thanks to the work laid down by the previous president. Ukrainian owned tech startups are appearing, too. Ukraine must draw strength from within.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Beckow
  220. LatW says:

    For those who like the Hutsul culture I can recommend the artsy and truly vibrant in the good sense of the word movie Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors.

    • Agree: AP
  221. AP says:
    @LatW

    That was something that volunteers made, somebody’s boyfriend essentially with no engineering experience

    He hates such volunteerism and the feelings it comes from. He thinks one should assess who is stronger, and submit immediately. This is “clever”, or something.

  222. Art Deco says:
    @Mr.Bean

    Kiev not wanting Russians in for now, might be a thing, but Podgorica not wanting Serbia in was never a thing really, and obviously is not a thing today.

    1. The survey research indicates that residents of the Ukraine wishing to be incorporated into Mother Russia account for < 5% of the population. You can't even persuade the self-identified Great Russians in the Ukraine. It's a thing. As for White Russia, your project is favored by about 25% of the population there, a portion in a state of long-term decline. You need to improve your sales pitch.

    2. It was 'never a thing', and, yet, they were functionally sovereign for over a century, have their own local dynasty, were a delineated component of Yugoslavia, and elected to separate from Serbia. Whatever.

    • Replies: @Mr.Bean
  223. Mr.Bean says:
    @Art Deco

    1.As I’ve said, you can’t know what the future holds, especially since Ukraine is a part of unified cultural sphere with RF, has no geographical borders with Russia and spent hundreds of years within the same country.Geography and history forces it into the Russian sphere regardless, especially the eastern regions.
    2.Montenegro(not even the full name of the country at the time) was explicitly a Serbian state that century it existed, and didn’t share a common border with Serbia, so it couldn’t unite in any case, so you have no argument there whatsoever(That didn’t stop the MNE leaders from promising unification once the Rashka region was liberated etc.).It’s dynasty was originally a Bosnian Serb dynasty, pretender on the throne of unified Serbia, and it’s members saints in the Serbian Orthodox Church, and founders of modern Serbian nationalism.
    “Elected”, with 25% of Muslim/Albanian population, and yet met the census requirement with barely a thousand votes(clearly a faux referendum). It was a component of Yugoslavia since 1945, not since 1918, when it joined Serbia voluntarily(unification started in 1913, when the common border was finally established).

  224. Beckow says:
    @LatW

    I went after the jugular with the steel sheet and it clearly worked, the Ukraine-uber-alles brigade stepped in and provided a lot of minutia – none of it true in a sense that Ukraine is still the poorest country in that region (by far) and it still roughly where it was in 2014 – with a rapidly declining population. We have also found out that Ukraine is closer to Europe than Romania – wow, what a lying map people create when they choose to deceive.

    Ukraine trading with Turkey, precious. I can see the coming boom in Turko-perverts selling the poor Ukie village girls. It is quite a future.

    Ukraine is not and will not be in EU in our lifetimes.
    Ukraine will continue losing population, it is down 10 million plus already – kind of world record.
    Ukraine is politically dysfunctional.

    If that is good for you all, well, to each his own. I will focus on saving what can still be saved from the Rusyn culture, see the music video I shared from booming Rusyn culture in Slovakia. You can even turn off the sound, it is still good…

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  225. Mr. Hack says:

    ill focus on saving what can still be saved from the Rusyn culture, see the music video I shared from booming Rusyn culture in Slovakia. You can even turn off the sound, it is still good…

    I’m sorry that the same can’t be said about you, Sovok-Man. 🙁

  226. AP says:
    @Beckow

    I went after the jugular with the steel sheet

    You failed as usual (what happens when the truth is not on your side) but provided a good opportunity to show the obvious, for other readers here. You are only good as a sort of foil.

    in a sense that Ukraine is still the poorest country in that region (by far)

    1. Moldova, a country that like Ukraine also chose not to pursue Euro-integration in the 1990s, is even poorer. Beckow’s preferred approach is a failure, you see.

    2. A useless observation, anyways. Ukraine was poorer than anyone but Moldova before Maidan. It would be in this position even if there had been no Maidan. The difference – before Maidan it was getting poorer than all of its neighbors year after year. Only after Maidan did Ukraine start catching up.

    Dishonest Beckow doesn’t like this 🙂

    We have also found out that Ukraine is closer to Europe than Romania – wow, what a lying map

    Kiev closer to Warsaw than Bucharest is to Budapest.

    Beckow lies again.

    Ukraine is not and will not be in EU in our lifetimes.

    Beckow, 2016: “There will be no growth in Ukraine for years. What would the economy grow from?”

    Reality: in 2016 Ukraine’s GDP per capita grew 2.855%, in 2017 2.916%, in 2018 3.86%, in 2019 will be also a little below 4%.

    LOL.

    Ukraine will continue losing population, it is down 10 million plus already – kind of world record.

    Prague and Moscow lost a much higher percentage of people under their rule after 1991. This is a good thing. Imperialist-nationalists or Sovok nostalgists may disagree, but Ukraine is much better off without the Sovoks of Donbas or anti-Ukrainians Russians in Crimea, and Moscow shouldn’t have Kiev.

    The loss of the other millions is mostly because of free travel. I suppose you miss the Iron curtain and machine guns keeping people in the country? It prevented population decline…

    • Replies: @Beckow
  227. Beckow says:
    @AP

    None of the countries that I talked about, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, lost millions of people when borders opened, so your comparison actually undermines your argument. Why did Ukraine lose over 10 million? And around 3 million went to Russia, presumably they could had gone to Russia even before 1990. You are trying to deny the obvious.

    I am not going to mention Moldova each time, it’s tedious – we all know that Moldova is poorer than Ukraine, are you proud of that?

    And the maps: since when is Warsaw the center of Europe. I have been there, quite underwhelming. Let’s measure the distances from actual European big cities. But you just like to argue, and I find it tiresome. You will go down still yelling about ‘2% growth, Belarus (who the f..k cares about Belarus), and how much you like losing Crimea (yeah, really, you think anyone actually believes you), and an endless commie terminology. It changes nothing: Ukraine is in a sh..tty situation and it is not in EU or Europe, or whatever it is that you have been dreaming about. It is ‘trading’ with Turkey, I suspect the Tatar slave raids can’t be far behind, except this time the Ukie women fly there on their own – out of desperation.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @AP
  228. AP says:
    @Beckow

    None of the countries that I talked about, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, lost millions of people when borders opened,

    1. That would be hard to do, given that they have about 1/4 or less of Ukraine’s population.

    2. Ukraine didn’t commit to EU until 2014 which meant many lost years of decline. Why? Too many Sovoks within its borders.

    And the maps: since when is Warsaw the center of Europe

    You were just caught lying as usual and now
    Warsaw is no longer a European city.

    Let’s measure the distances from actual European big cities

    Lol. Kiev closer to Berlin than Bucharest to Berlin or Rome.

    Just keep digging 🙂

    You will go down still yelling about ‘2% growth

    Only one going down is you. You are still lying btw. Growth is from nearly 3% to nearly 4%.

    So first you said no growth for many years and now you lie about the rate of growth.

    Belarus (who the f..k cares about Belarus),

    Belarus is the model for Ukraine if Ukraine did what you wanted and tied itself to Russia. It’s a worse path than the one taken by Visegrad and Romania. Even after 2014, it’s a worse path. Ukraine only started catching up to Belarus after it chose to join its Western brothers.

    and how much you like losing Crimea (yeah, really, you think anyone actually believes you),

    Sovok liar thinks everyone else is dishonest, as he is.

    No. It may be hard for someone like you to accept, but not everyone is like you.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  229. Mr. Hack says:

    Out of a smoldering dung heap of lies, untruths and wishful propaganda, Sovok-Man is able to somehow miraculously reconstitute his being and take his final (hopefully) blows at Ukro-Man. It looks like our hero has been able to deflect his best blows and remains totally unscathed. Will Sovok-man be able to escape and take up the fight once again, perhaps in some future time in an unknown galaxy?…The balance of Ukraine’s march towards the West remains in the offing…

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  230. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Sovok-Man – just another sexual deviant on the order of a Jeffrey Epstein? He always seems to have his eye out for “young hot talent” especially from Eastern europe. You be the judge. 🙂

  231. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    I went after the jugular with the steel sheet

    No, you tried to do two things: 1) denigrate the Ukrainian volunteers who are quite a phenomena and clearly no snowflakes and 2) imply that there is no tech in Ukraine.

    You simply chose to ignore the very obvious reality right under your nose that there is plenty of tech in Ukraine, especially military (which itself is in the higher leagues).

    And talking about “Turko-perverts” when Turkey and Ukraine are building drones together, when trade is up significantly and when Erdogan screams “Slava Ukraini!” in downtown Kyiv (like he did a couple of weeks ago)… is just not very serious.

    What matters are trends. Up to 40% trade is now with the EU, trade with other regions is up, too. In 15-20 years Ukraine could become like Visegrad today, a white country of 30M people. There are only a few states of that size / scale in Europe. The little nations on Ukraine’s borders better make nice now. 🙂

    What will happen or not “in our lifetimes” is hard to tell, as that can be 40-60 years ahead of now.

    And, yes, the video is great. Incidentally, I’ve been watching it over the last few months, and if the cute hlopchik in the video is anything to go by… you’ve got competition. Uh-oh. 🙂 lots of those in UA.

    • Agree: AP, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Beckow
  232. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …given that they have about 1/4 or less of Ukraine’s population.

    They have 25 million together, Ukraine has at best 37 million now. So I don’t see the 1/4, but whatever. Let’s do %: Ukraine has lost 20-25% of its population, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary at most 1-2% after the borders opened. So again you are lying by omission and some rely infantile manipulation.

    If you want to argue that somehow Ukraine is more geographically in Europe than V4 or Romania, you are welcome – but it’s foolish on its face, nobody will take you seriously. St.Petersburg is closer to Stockholm than Kiev, Istanbul to Rome, Algiers to Paris…that’s the way geography works.

    GDP grew in Ukraine by 5.4% in 2011 – first full year of Yanukovitch. It went down by 6.5% and 9.7% in 2014 and 2015 – the two post-Maidan years. In 2016 it went up by 2.4% and 2017 by 3.3%. But cumulatively since Maidan Ukraine’s economy is at best even. In 6 years, and you keep on boasting about it. Pathetic. I wish Ukraine well but their living standards are 1/3 of Russia or Poland, 1/4 of Czechia, and even 1/2 of Belarus. To boast about that is very sad.

    Ukraine has also been on a ‘pro-Western’ course in 2005-10 after the Orange revolution that you conveniently pretend never happened. If you add those 5 years to 6 years since Maidan out of 29 post 1991 years, Ukraine has been on an explicit pro-Europe course for 11 out of 29 years, or close to 40% of the time.

    Finally, if you cannot emotionally restrain yourself from screaming abuse in a virtual discussion, we are not going to be able to discuss anything here. What you do, the mindless name-calling and anger, shows weakness and fear, and it is not gaining you any sympathy. That undermines what you say that I often find illuminating and interesting. Why do you keep on doing it?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @another anon
  233. Beckow says:
    @LatW

    So now you are putting your trust in the Turks, brilliant. They spent a few hundred years enslaving Ukrainians by raiding the country and used Tatars in Crimea as premiere slave merchants of that era. But all they have to do is ‘wink, wink’ now and all is well. Never trust a Turk.

    I see that you have downgraded your ambition to be a ’30 million’ white country that ‘could be like Visegrad in 15-20 years’. Is that what they were jumping up and down on Maidan about? To be ‘like Visegrad’ with a shrunken population? I am not sure about the ‘white’ part, the migrants have to be sent somewhere, empty spaces beckon, Brussels might be willing to pay for it, and your friend Erdogan has many more. I am also not sure what you mean by ‘like Visegrad’, you mean not in EU, and not rich, but kind of like maybe eastern Poland?

    We are not going to ‘make nice’. You want us, not vice-versa, you try desperately to move to our countries and get our aid, not vice versa. So we have the upper hand, and if we don’t desire a war with Russia and you do, guess whose preferences will prevail.

    I will check the video again, but I only noticed the ‘dzivocky’ so far, my bad. The ones cleaning rooms in Prague or serving coffee are even better. So far none has told me about her secret desire to invade Russia and impale the evil Putin. But maybe they are just holding back.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @LatW
  234. AP says:
    @Beckow

    They have 25 million together, Ukraine has at best 37 million now. So I don’t see the 1/4,

    You wrote about each individually: “None of the countries that I talked about, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, lost millions of people when borders opened.”

    Let’s do %: Ukraine has lost 20-25% of its population, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary at most 1-2% after the borders opened.

    As I already explained – “Ukraine didn’t commit to EU until 2014 which meant many lost years of decline..” Ukraine relative to the West is much poorer in 2014 than Hungary, Slovakia and Czechia were in the 1990s when they opened to the West. Ukraine also doesn’t have a lot of fertile gypsies who dampen demographic decline. This is not a bad thing for Ukraine.

    If you want to argue that somehow Ukraine is more geographically in Europe than V4 or Romania,

    Don’t lie again. I specifically referred to Romania, not V4. You made the excuse that Ukraine wouldn’t benefit from Western integration because it’s too far from Europe. I pointed out that Romania is even further, but benefited and grew economically much more than Belarus or Ukraine. You lied about Romania being closer to the West, I pointed out distances from Kiev to Warsaw is less than Bucharest to Budapest. You then lied that Romania was closer to some big Western city (Warsaw doesn’t count) and I pointed out that Kiev is closer to Berlin than Bucharest is to Berlin or Rome (the nearest large Western cities).

    St.Petersburg is closer to Stockholm than Kiev,

    Kiev closer to Warsaw than St. Petersburg to Stockholm.

    St. Petersburg is neither the capital nor Russia’s largest city. We can compare distances of Lviv to Western cities in that case.

    Lviv is half the distance to Warsaw as St. Petersburg is to Stockholm.

    Istanbul to Rome, Algiers to Paris

    Kiev to Berlin is 1,357 km. Istanbul to Rome is 2,226 km. Almost twice as far.

    Algiers to Paris is 2,607 km. About twice as far.

    How does it feel to be exposed as a liar with every post, Beckow?

    GDP grew in Ukraine by 5.4% in 2011 – first full year of Yanukovitch

    As I already explained, this was a recovery from the 2009 crisis that began before Yanukovich came into power. And here you lie by omission – in the next two years under Yanukovich, growth slowed to .2% in 2012 and 0.0% in 2013.

    Ukraine never recovered from the 2009 crisis under Yanukovich’s rule, and would not have. After the partial recovery – stagnation.

    In contrast, after Maidan Ukraine not only recovered from the 2014-2015 drop, but its economy continues to grow at a solid 3.5% or so. And it does so without most of the the two richest pre-2014 oblasts.

    In 2016 it went up by 2.4% and 2017 by 3.3%.

    Why do you omit 2018 and 2019? 3.86% in 2018, projected to be over 3.5% in 2019.

    Compare to 0.2% in 2012 and 0.0% in 2013 under Yanukovich.

    Ukraine’s economy is at best even. In 6 years, and you keep on boasting about it. Pathetic.

    If Ukraine’s real 1991 was 2014, we are like 1997 for V4. But without V4’s massive subsidies. Overall respectable performance.

    Ukraine has also been on a ‘pro-Western’ course in 2005-10 after the Orange revolution

    Not fully. Remember that due to Crimea and Donbas, the anti-Orange had a huge share of the parliament and Yanukovich was even PM between 2006-2007. Only after 2014 Maidan was the Association Agreement signed and the country was unambiguously pursuing a Western course.

    Finally, if you cannot emotionally restrain yourself from screaming abuse

    I do not scream or abuse. That is Gerard’s thing. When you lie, as you do, I call you a liar. I have had disagreements with other commenters such as Dmitry but they do not lie so I do not call them liars.

    You lie consistently, and I label you a liar because that is who you are. Others have also noticed your chronic lies. There are three people here who lie almost all the time. You and two others. 2 of the 3 are Sovoks. It’s something about Soviet morality that makes lying acceptable.

    Stop lying, and I will no longer call you a liar. But you won’t, lying comes too easily to you.

  235. Beckow says:

    You are truly hopeless, so I am done.

    Anyone denying – as you do – the Orange Revolution and the 2005-10 EU orientation of Ukraine, will lie (using your obsessive term) about anything. Your writing betrays desperation.

    • Replies: @AP
  236. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    We are not going to ‘make nice’. You want us, not vice-versa, you try desperately to move to our countries and get our aid, not vice versa. So we have the upper hand, and if we don’t desire a war with Russia and you do, guess whose preferences will prevail.

    Wow, at first I thought that I was reading the lunatic boasts of some megalomaniac nut-job, who thinks that he has the abilities to speak for the whole V-4 forever, amen. But then I remembered, that this must be one of the super powers of the one and only “Sovok-Man”, president for life of the V-4:

    Notice who has the “upper hand” in this chilling relationship.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  237. @Mr. Hack

    You really need to work on your cartoons. Consider asking our venerable FB for advice.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  238. Mr. Hack says:
    @Simpleguest

    What’s wrong with them (BTW, they’re not mine)? AP seems to like them. Who’s “our venerable FB”?

  239. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    Re: the Turks. Where did I say “trust”? Doveryai no proveryai! I’m not talking about trusting a 100% but about working on mutually beneficial projects. To bring up that they used to snatch Ruthenian maidens 400-500 years ago is silly. The Americans threw a nuclear bomb on the Japanese, does that hinder their trade today? 2014 showed clearly who is who and one probably can’t fully trust anybody except their closest brethren anyway. Turkey can be a valuable partner (and potentially a gateway to the whole Ummah).

    I tried to be conservative with Ukraine’s future population, on purpose, knowing that if I said 38 or God forbid anything above 40M, Ukrainophobes would shriek. I just wanted to illustrate that a country of even “as little as” 30M with a GDP of an average Central European country and a developed military can be very powerful by European standards. If we only went by GDP and how perfectly your sidewalks are scrubbed then Lichtenstein would be powerful, too. Iran is technically poor but is Iran weak? An even better example for Ukraine would be Israel. This is a slightly more serious level than Visegrad.

    The Visegrad countries are in a stage where they in fact need to have a breakthrough to bring in even more wealth and to create enterprises that are in native hands to grow the wealth of the natives (as opposed to Western investors). A qualitative leap is required here if one wants to be truly rich (whether that is needed is a different question). Ukraine, on the other hand, has not yet fully tapped into its internal resources and a lot remains to be built.

    My point was that if / when Ukraine becomes stronger, the relationship with the smaller neighbors will improve, too. Laws of Nature, if you will.

    And nobody “desires” war with Russia like you constantly try to insinuate. To imply that Ukraine desires it is a disgusting lie. In fact, defensive war is ethical and in a neutral scenario Ukraine (or a similar mid-size country if it had been attacked) would have a right to not only take back their territory (most fiercest rebels are killed by now) and restore their control over their border but to also strike Rostov where two large armies are poised to potentially attack Ukraine in the future. Not saying it’d be good or the right thing to do, but if these were two abstract states in a conventional war situation and the audience were neutral, that’s exactly what many would suggest as a defensive measure in this situation. But Ukraine is actually doing the opposite – retreating (the so called “separation of troops” will simply cause the Russian snipers to move in their abandoned positions). So, no, Ukraine doesn’t desire war and to imply so when people are killed and maimed weekly in their own homeland by weapons supplied by foreigners, is beyond unethical.

    • Agree: AP, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Beckow
  240. LatW says:

    Stockholm’s distance to St Pete is actually a great example. Where is all of Sweden’s business? Not in Russia. Where is Spotify headquartered? New York. The VPs will put up with the hassle of transatlantic flights, going through US immigration red tape, anything, but they will not do business with Russia. They could’ve 10 years ago, before 2014 happened but they didn’t.

    The Swedes have even gone as far as re-directed all their focus in their humanities programs in the major universities from the continental tradition to Anglo positivism and analytical philosophy. They must’ve done it after the war when Germans became “evil”. Most of them have probably never heard of the Russian Silver Age. Some geography.

  241. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Anyone denying – as you do – the Orange Revolution and the 2005-10 EU orientation of Ukraine

    You lie again.

    I did not deny “2005-10 EU orientation of Ukraine” but noted that it was hamstrung by the large anti-EU presence in parliament resulting in Yanukovich being PM in 2016-2007. The Association Agreement wasn’t even signed under Yushchenko, it had to wait until after Maidan.

    My words: “Not fully. Remember that due to Crimea and Donbas, the anti-Orange had a huge share of the parliament and Yanukovich was even PM between 2006-2007. ”

    so I am done

    It’s hard for you – your lies exposed with every post. Poor dishonest Sovok 🙁

    Anyways I am going north to Quebec for a few days where there is real winter to enjoy, so will not be posting much. Your lies will be safe for awhile.

  242. Beckow says:
    @LatW

    Turks used to snatch maidens 400-500 years ago is silly

    More like 250 years ago, only Catherine II put an end to it when she conquered Crimea. I was alluding to the fact that the same motivations still exist in the old Ottoman lands – only power keeps them in check. Ukraine’s future is not with the Turks.

    I don’t disagree with most of your points, it is a truism that Ukraine has not fully tapped into its internal resources and a lot remains to be built. (we can ask why, but that’s for another day). My point is much more basic: what advances it and what doesn’t? Our disagreement is about the impact of Maidan (or Orange Revolution that you try to downplay). Based on where we are 6 years after Maidan, it hasn’t worked well. You and others here claim either that it has, or that it will in the long-run.

    To catch up with V4 living standards would be even mathematically very hard in less than 30-40 years. Most likely the drop in Ukraine’s standing that it has suffered between 1991-2019 will linger and keep it poorer than its neighbours. I would also claim that it was the irrational behaviour right after Maidan – the language law, breaking ties with Russia, Crimea and war on its own population in Donbas, more corruption by Porky and gang – that is mostly responsible, not Maidan itself. To fix it, you have to at least consider it instead of constant cherry-picking and defeatist emotionalism that AP/Hack do. This analysis – that Kiev messed up post-Maidan- is the view within EU and in V4 minus Poland. Address it and stop hiding behind name calling.

    nobody “desires” war with Russia like you constantly try to insinuate. To imply that Ukraine desires it is a disgusting lie.

    By their acts they will judged. Are you familiar with that principle? People always deny that they desire war. If all you do creates a war, who cares what you ‘desire’ or say that you desire?

    Declaring ‘separatists’ in Donbas to be terrorists and refuse to negotiate with them, shift the whole thing into a geo-political arena with Nato and Kremlin, blabla, was a huge mistake. If Kiev simply talked to them, or even accepted any form of local autonomy, the use of Russian language, etc… none of this would be happening. Starting to shoot at your own citizens who had different views about the Maidan ‘revolution’ was a form of self-centered insanity and that created the war.

    If you trigger a war, who cares what you wanted? By the way, if you prefer to shift the blame on Moscow what do you accomplish by that? In a way, Russia had to protect and assist the Russian leaning areas of Ukraine – all large countries would do it. How would France act if Flemish nationalists would take over Belgium and suppress French language or even links with France? So Russia’s reaction was built into it, they had to act and Kiev should had anticipated it.

    Finally, in a military confrontation Ukraine cannot win against Russia. Not even with Polish, German, Canadian, or Turkish allies coming in. It cannot be done. Only fools dream of what cannot be done. That means some sort of a compromise will have to reached eventually. The problem is that the geo-politicians in Washington and Brussels are quite happy with the stalemate and as long as Kiev follows them 100%, nothing will change. You suffer to allow others to play games on the map, a sad state of affairs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  243. @Beckow

    They have 25 million together, Ukraine has at best 37 million now. So I don’t see the 1/4, but whatever. Let’s do %: Ukraine has lost 20-25% of its population, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary at most 1-2% after the borders opened. So again you are lying by omission and some rely infantile manipulation.

    https://budapestbeacon.com/600000-hungarians-living-eu-countries/

    Around 600,000 Hungarians could be living abroad according to data compiled by economic news website portfolio.hu, substantially more than previous estimates.

    https://osmepress.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/how-many-hungarians-live-and-work-in-other-countries-of-the-eu-docx.pdf

    How many Hungarians live and work in other contries of the EU?

    Portfolio has therefore tried to calculate the number of Hungarians currently
    resident in the EU, based on data in the public domain. From the calculations made
    in this way it appears that, nowadays, more than 600,000 compatriots of Prime
    Minister Viktor Orbán live in other states of the European Union.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  244. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    You’re monotonous melange of supposed reasons why Ukraine need not pursue closer cooperation with the EU have all been addressed by AP and LatW. Ukraine’s economy is improving year by year as is it’s related GDP. Ukraine does not want war with Russia and its defensive posture is proof of this, no matter how much you huff and puff that it does. A dialogue with you is like a one way street, where your arguments do not change no matter how thoroughly they’ve been addressed before and demolished. I have only one question for you:

    Why do you always appear whenever the topic of Ukraine’s integration with the EU comes up? You sound like a broken record and even worse, you sound like some sort of a paid Russian troll whose main purpose is to try and discredit Ukraine? Do you and Anna Maria belong to the same union? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  245. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You either didn’t read what I said, or you are not capable of a rational discussion so you go for ad hominem attacks. (I could call you grandpa Bandera, why not? You seem to always appear to push the WWII revisionist line, are you are a Nazi troll? Do you see how stupid that is?)

    You didn’t address any of my points:
    – Ukraine has been on EU road for 11 out of its 29 years (Orange + Maidan)
    – Ukraine is NOT IN EU, and will not be based on today’s trends
    – post-Maidan Kiev made mistakes that will be hard to undo (see what I wrote above).

    We are in EU, and we have some say about what kind of a country joins. It is a fundamental EU rule that suppressing minority language rights is not ok (look up the EU Charter and by-laws). Shooting at your own citizens – as in Donbas – is not ok. Celebrating Nazi collaborators is not ok. Massive corruption is not ok.

    You say you want in EU, but you refuse to follow EU rules. If you don’t see it, grandpa, well, enjoy your torch marches and yell ancient slogans, but you won’t be in EU. I am trying to help you by telling you what you are doing wrong and how others see it.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  246. Beckow says:
    @another anon

    It could be, or not. Hungary has not been depopulating and EU borders are open so it is hard to track. Compared to Ukraine, it is a fraction. There are estimates that up to 5-7 Ukrainians live abroad, and Ukraine dropped from 51 million people to 37 million in 30 years (Crimea only accounts for 2.5). Similar drops only happened in Georgia, Latvia and to some extent Bulgaria.

    My point comparing Ukraine to V3 was correct.

  247. @Beckow

    You say you want in EU, but you refuse to follow EU rules. If you don’t see it, grandpa, well, enjoy your torch marches and yell ancient slogans, but you won’t be in EU. I am trying to help you by telling you what you are doing wrong and how others see it.

    Exactly. Vast majority of ordinary people in EU see nothing but a 16th century inter-tribal conflict transponded into 21st century.

    It’s sad to see the, once mighty world superpower be dragged back to 16th century morass, but petty nationalism never fails to deliver.

    Of course, Anglo-American deep state will certainly not miss the chance to (ab)use the “weaker” side for its own goals. Hence, this conflict is “packaged” as a struggle between “freedom loving” Ukrainians and despotic Russian regime.
    Nothing can be further from the truth, that’s why this product sells so poorly.

  248. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    It is a fundamental EU rule that suppressing minority language rights is not ok (look up the EU Charter and by-laws).

    This can be remedied very quickly.

    Shooting at your own citizens – as in Donbas – is not ok.

    This too can be remedied. Russian backed rebels stop fighting, and their military advisors o back to Russia.

    Celebrating Nazi collaborators is not ok

    “Nazi” collaborators is a nebulous term. UPA has a history of fighting Nazis as well as Poles and Russians too.

    Massive corruption is not ok.

    The whole world is mired in corruption (it seems to be what makes the world go round). As for Ukraine, The Donald is still working on it.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  249. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …can be remedied very quickly.

    So remedy it, longer this goes on, harder it gets.

    Both corruption and an unseemly fondness for former Nazi allies are a matter of degree. Let’s just say that in Ukraine the degree is more than can be tolerated in EU.

    Donbas can be solved overnight with a simple autonomy status – as it could had been in 2014. Who would it hurt? Who is hurt if some schools teach in Russian or Hungarian?

    But 6 years later, the patience is running out and I would say that Ukraine is further from an actual membership in EU than at any time in the last 10-15 years, partially also due to changes that happened inside EU.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    It cost the Ukraine the Maidan in order to finally get the EU association status. Perhaps, the Europeans will discover how to make money out of thin air like the US and be able to help finance Ukraine for a coupe of years? I mean, it’s really only money that’s keeping Ukraine out for the time being. At some point, even Russia will have to start adding up the costs and find out that it’s much too expensive a way to help maintain Putler’s popularity.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  251. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Europeans will discover how to make money out of thin air like the US

    Only one country within the same orbit can do it at the same time, and EU is unlikely to replace US, so there will be no unlimited virtual money for Ukraine.

    The costs are high for all involved: Ukraine, Russia and EU. We are postponing future because of unwillingness to talk rationally. And because it benefits some in Washington-Brussels who make a living from the current set-up. Longer this goes on, the deeper the hole we have been digging will get. At some point who started what and when will be only of academic interest.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  252. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    I’m not really sure who’ll be able to provide the cash infusions that Ukraine will need to jump start its economy to even higher rates than what’s being achieved today (3.5% is actually pretty good). It’s certainly not Russia, that is no longer the cash king cow that it was up until 2014 (it’s oil revenues started to drop quickly). Perhaps China that’s been showing more and more of an interest in Ukraine? My best guess is that it’ll continue to be the US, that sees in Ukraine a “front-line”against its perennial enemy, Russia, a state that’s been able and willing to take-up the fight to its belligerent and active neighbor that still seems to crave a superpower status..

    • Replies: @Beckow
  253. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    US gives only as much as it can take back. EU has no cash available given its gradual shift from a wealthy European club (Germany+, UK, Scandinavia) to a subsidy organisation for south and eastern Europe. UK was the 2nd largest funder, they are gone.

    EU saw Ukraine as a door to the Russian economy – once that was gone, the interest in Ukraine dropped. Nobody is going to put a plant or an R&D center to export to Russia, that’s why the Association has been largely a bust, exports from Ukraine to EU were 25 billion in 2019, the same as in 2008 or 2012-13, so what did the Association do?

    China may invest, but it will be ugly: they are locust-like and relentless, they will take the land, the resources, cheap labor. Working for Chinese has never been much fun.

    It is in Washington’s strategic interest to have hostilities between Ukraine and Russia – and EU and Russia. Russia doesn’t have to ‘crave‘ superpower status, it is a superpower, those who forgot it suffered greatly in the past. Russia can hurt Ukraine a lot more than vice-versa, a scenario where a shrunken Ukraine is like Cuba to US is not a good place for Kiev to be. It impacts us further west, but we will be ok, for Ukraine to be a front-line state in a frozen conflict with Russia is a disaster. That’s where this is heading.

    It is not heroic to piss into a hurricane, it is stupid.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    , @AP
  254. Mr. Hack says:

    The trouble is, is that the EU has not really indicated that it will not ever accept Ukraine into its club, and its club, you have to admit, is a lot more dynamic than anyone that Russia heads.

    Reaching the same export level to the EU as in 2013 (right before Russia’s anschluss of Crimea) is a very good sign. It means that the listless Yanukovych years are being left behind. The future is getting better for Ukraine. Soon Russia will need to start another aggressive war against Ukraine to stem the tide of renewed vibrancy in Ukraine, the only way it seems to know in dealing with its neighbor.

    Embracing a hurricane, that Russia is for Ukraine, is fraught with greater difficulties for its existence, that pissing at it. Ukrainians are not interested in becoming Little Russians – “been there, seen it, done it.”

    • Replies: @Beckow
  255. @Beckow

    Exports to the EU are actually a lot less now for Ukraine than in 2012 or 2007……by a long way- something like 30%.
    Even Belarus not making any attempt at integration with the west, proportionally (and in many cases not even proportionally, but outright) annihilated Ukraine in increasing trade with the EU after euromaidan.. which is about as embarrassing and shameful as it gets!
    Belarus does it with a positive trade balance.

    It is the same thing with Russia and the EU, compared to banderastan.

    The most funny and catastrophic failure has been in their “success” in sizeable yield and exports from agriculture. They could have ridden on a wave of mass exporting agricultural products to China, with Russia effectively financing it AND being a key importer at the same time. Instead, they made Russia become a main exporter and direct rival costing about 35 billion USD alone in lost agricultural export to Russia and in Russia delivering agroexports to China after quickly developing the Industry….. that could easily have been exported from Ukraine instead.

    P. S- Russia a net exporter of potatoes and chicken to ukraine. Inexplicable and just about proves there is no dignity left in ukropia

  256. AP says:
    @Beckow

    It is a fundamental EU rule that suppressing minority language rights is not ok

    You write falsehoods as usual.

    This only applies to the languages of EU states. The Baltic states have no problems limiting the Russian language and the French had no problem erasing numerous indigenous languages in France. France’s government refused to ratify European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages because it violates France’s constitution that mandates the language of the Republic is French.

    If the Ukrainian government were more clever it would carve out exemptions for Hungarian and Romanian into its language and school policy. Then there would be no complaints nor problems.

    Ukraine has been on EU road for 11 out of its 29 years (Orange + Maidan)

    While technically true, Orange times meant a large Blue parliamentary presence including Yanukovich as PM for a time. Only after Maidan was the pro-Russian anchor (Crimea plus Donbas) holding Ukraine back released. Association Agreement wasn’t signed until after Maidan.

    Shooting at your own citizens – as in Donbas – is not ok.

    Britain was in the EU when it was shooting in Northern Ireland.

    Celebrating Nazi collaborators is not ok.

    Austria elected an Nazi Party SA member who was implicated in war crimes as president, until recently Freedom Party was a coalition partner in Austria’s government, Croatian officials say nice things about Ustashe sometimes, and the Baltic republics have plenty of parades. So although such things are risque they are certainly not impossible in EU countries.

    Your impressive record of writing false things continues.

  257. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Association has been largely a bust, exports from Ukraine to EU were 25 billion in 2019, the same as in 2008 or 2012-13, so what did the Association do?

    Thanks for proving that the Association Agreement has been good for Ukraine (though you screwed up, see below).

    Ukraine in 2019 no longer includes regions responsible for about 20% of exports prior to Maidan. So if Ukraine minus Donbas and Crimea (2019) exports as much to the EU in 2019 as did Ukraine plus Donbas and Crimea in 2012-2013, this is a very large increase in export volume for the areas within Kiev’s control compared to prior to Maidan.

    However the news is even better for Ukraine – exports in 2019 to the EU surpassed all previous years. And the trade imbalance is less than it was before Maidan, also.

    The blue line is imports into the EU from Ukraine. As is obvious, it surpassed pre-Maidan levels in by the start of 2017 and is the highest it has ever been. The graph is for goods only, not goods + services so number is lower than $25 billion. But IT services has grown tremendously.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20190708-1

    And to emphasize again – this growth in exports to EU comes from a much smaller population than before Maidan. In 2019, Ukraine that no longer includes Crimea or most of Donbas exports a lot more to the EU than a much larger Ukraine had exported to the EU prior to Maidan.

    :::::::::::::::

    If you were less focused on lying about Ukraine’s trade with the EU you could have noted that increased and record exports to EU have not compensated for decreased exports to Russia and that overall export volume is lower after Maidan, even when taking into account population loss. However:

    1. The Russia-exporting regions weren’t the ones supporting Maidan in the first place. Maidan is still a win for the pro-Maidan parts of Ukraine, who were not as dependent on trade with Russia in the first place and whose exports to the EU have boomed.

    2. This is a little messy because prices for iron and steel are lower than they were before Maidan so some (though not all) of the loss in overall exports has nothing to do with lost Russia trade but simply with lower steel price which means less export $$.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
  258. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Has it ever occurred to you that you can neither ‘embrace the hurricane‘ nor ‘piss into it‘? Normal people simply stand-by and observe.

    EU has been quite clear about not accepting any more large, poor countries. That applies to Ukraine and Turkey. Brussels is populated by a special kind of weasels: when they don’t say ‘yes’, it actually means ‘no’ – it took Turks 25 years to figure it out. I wonder how long it will take before Kiev figures it out.

    Your constant binary choice of EU or Russia is false and that’s the core issue. It is like saying that since I like skiing in the Alps better, I will never ski anywhere else, and I will constantly attack even the idea that skiing elsewhere is an option. Normal people and normal countries don’t do that.

    • Replies: @AP
  259. @Philip Owen

    A complete fallacy–you can even more easily say that USSR/Warsaw pact kept extremely secure an area that was far more fragile.

    Anyway, most of the EU is in NATO, which makes the reasoning of it being the EU responsible for peace , completely non-existent. Being in peace, outside of a dictatorial military alliance as NATO would put the EU in a good light.

    For intance you could argue that plenty of EU idiot bureacrats after Crimea would want to stop trains or planes between mainland Russia and Kaliningrad, via Lithuania.. and NATO stopping them from doing do- because they know it could be taken as an act of war

  260. @Bardon Kaldian

    Are you thick?

    As if the fact that 4 of the last 5 Presidents have pretty much been learning the ukrainian “language” ON THE JOB!! doesn’t make a foolish person as yourself at least think twice.

    How nice for them to release a 1000 gryvnia note which is dominated by a man who was:

    1.Born in Russia
    2 Died in Russia
    3.Educated in Russia
    4.Only spoke Russian
    5.Wife Russian
    6. Kids regarding themselves as russians

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  261. @AP

    Association Agreement is working great….. Exports to the EU have increased

    Err…this is even worse than not knowing where odessa in on the map of Ukraine, and plenty of other things. Can you even read the graph? Exports to EU are far down from 2012…..this, embarrassingly is unlike Belarus and Russia who even when not trying to be friends with the EU are able to export more and get a much better trade balance with the EU.
    Even with Poland, Belarus has just as much exports as ukropia.

    Anyway, for any non-idiot, even equalling exports to the EU after 6 years, having killed your economy by cutting of a far larger size of exports to Russia – is a suicide mission.

    Hilarious is that this fake number of “IT services” – Russia is by far the largest user of Ukraine services at +40 percent. Without this (increased by 85 percent during the year) then ukraines fake, currency manipulated gdp” growth”….. is in another recession!

    Keep that export and take away the Stockholm. Gas transit money settlement+ US infamous 450 million and, hey, another recession.

    All this while fake growth is still about the same as Belarus which didn’t have the 20 pc resseccion, and way behind Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan…. plus its own EU AA rivals.

    Trade balance is shit, it got even worse in 2019. Only alleviated because black hole Ukraine had massively reduced its natural gas consumption to dead Industries and freezing pensioners ( by 35 – 40 pc) But anyway,
    Let’s see now (indulging in your garbage) Imports in 2012-85 billion USD

    Imports now, well 2018,55 billion (LOL)

    Exports 2012 – 75 billion
    Exports 2018- 47 billion ( again LOL)
    In reality you haven’t got any f***ing clue about Ukraine what any non donbass region imports

    In any sane persons mind this is a catastrophe for country 404.

    It’s that bad that even Belarus has far exceeded trade with the EU during the same time!… and with a positive trade bslance

    As for BS about 1991, since 2000,when putin came to power Belarus as well as Russia has far outperformed Poland in economic performance.

    • Replies: @AP
  262. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Can you even read the graph? Exports to EU are far down from 2012

    First you proved that you can’t speak Russian, now you prove that you can’t read graphs, LOL.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20190708-1

    Blue line is imports to EU from Ukraine. Red line is exports from EU to Ukraine.

    Graph ends in 2018. Exports to EU have risen in 2019, of course.

    As for BS about 1991, since 2000,when putin came to power Belarus as well as Russia has far outperformed Poland in economic performance.

    LOL:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-BY-RU

    Russia did well with high oil prices, surpassing Poland but then falling behind again. Not Belarus.

    :::::::::::::

    Have you learned the Russian word for watch yet?

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/god-truly-does-have-a-sense-of-humor/#comment-3472492

    “chas” is “hour” in Russian..i.e a period of time, or in a time, not to mention also meaning “watch/clock

    Latvian woman had to point out to you that the Russian word for clock is not chas but chasy.

    The context of the discussion was showing how Ukrainian vocabulary matches Polish more than Russian while all three languages have similar grammar:

    The word for “time” is “chas” in both Polish and Ukrainian, but “vremya” in Russian.

    The words for “hour” are “godzina” in Polish and “hodina” in Ukrainian (in essence, the same), but “chas” in Russian.

    Slavic grammar is different than English – Slavs sometimes use “hour” when in English “time” is used (i.e., “What time is it” in English becomes becomes “What hour is it?” in the Slavic languages). But in this case Ukrainian words are the same as the Polish counterpart and not like Russian.

    The three languages come together with the word “often” – it is chasto in all three.

  263. AP says:
    @Beckow

    EU has been quite clear about not accepting any more large, poor countries. That applies to Ukraine and Turkey. Brussels is populated by a special kind of weasels: when they don’t say ‘yes’, it actually means ‘no’ – it took Turks 25 years to figure it out. I wonder how long it will take before Kiev figures it out.

    Stupid comparison.

    Turkey has 80 million people and Ukraine has 37 million people. Turkey is Muslim and non-European, and Ukraine is Christian and European (this may not be openly a factor but it is one). No one in EU likes Turkey, Poland and Baltics within EU like Ukraine.

    The only relevant factor here is poverty: Ukraine has about half of Turkey’s nominal GDP per capita. (Turkey’s GDP per capita surpasses that of countries like Serbia, Belarus, North Macedonia, Bosnia). If Ukraine improved its GDP to the level of a Macedonia or a Belarus, certainly doable in 10 or 15 years, EU membership would be very possible for its 33 million (or whatever) people. For Turkey’s 90+ million by then- not so much.

    Although who knows what EU would be like then, how fragmented it might be, etc. There may be a Visegrad organization that would be more relevant.

  264. Mr. Hack says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Vernadsky:

    1. Spent hi childhood in Poltava Ukraine.
    2. Was a prominent scholar in Ukraine, as well as in Russia, and was prominent in establishing the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences in Kyiv and the National Library of the Ukrainian state.
    3. Knew and spoke the Ukrainian language.
    4. Both of his parents and his wife were descended from old line Ukrainian families
    5. At least one of his daughters, certainly felt herself to be Ukrainian, and George was definitely leaning this way more and more as time went on.
    6. Most importantly, Vladimir Vernadsky himself felt that he was Ukrainian and not Russian, as he wrote within his own genealogical text (Oh no, don’t say it’s true):

    Among the many additions and corrections Vladimir Vernadsky personally introduced into this genealogical text, one is particularly remarkable. Its heading, in Vladimir’s own handwriting, reads, “About our family as Ukrainians, not Russians” [emphasis in original]. Vladimir stressed in these notes that both his father and his mother “felt very acutely their distinctiveness from the Russians. [They] knew from legends and books the history of Ukraine. [I ] heard a lot [about it] in my childhood.”53

    https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/93700/OP302.pdf

  265. AP says:

    So Surkov is out and Kozak is in.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  266. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    And yet, the average Ukrainian on the streets shrugs his shoulders in indifference?

    ну звільни і ну що? буде козак чи ще хтось хрін редьки не солодший.люблять писаки робити сенсацію щоб відвернути увагу від справжньої катастрофи

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