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Map of Spanish PISA results via /u/bulfcc on Reddit:

As usual, clear N-S gradient, if not as steep as in Italy.

Incidentally, the north is in demographic free-fall (2x deaths as births), while the south is stable (births~=deaths).

Here’s the data from 2018:

Not good, but a predictable pattern.

***

Thanks to another Twitter user (@caodivino), I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:

One surprisingly take away from the regional Portuguese IQ results is that Lisbon may be the single largest concentration of cognitive ability in the Iberian peninsula. OTOH, the rest of the country is similar to Southern Spain.

Spain has recently started to do marginally worse than Portugal in PISA assessments, though one must also adjust for Spain having more in the way of low quality immigrants.

Still, this does seem to be a good sign for Portugal moving some way to closing its inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: IQ, PISA, Portugal, Spain 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    These 10 countries top the ranks in chemistry research 2019

    https://www.natureindex.com/news-blog/these-ten-countries-top-the-ranks-in-chemistry-research

    While the eight other nations in the top 10 have maintained their places since 2017, all except Spain have seen declines in their chemistry output.
     
  2. High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I’ve read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there’s a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    Solid performance of Portugal on the PISA is not a new thing. They've done a bit better in recent years but even a decade ago they did about the OECD average. The underperformance of Portugal is one of Europe's great mysteries. They haven't had a serious war in god knows how long, their borders have barely moved for centuries. The explanation given is typically "geographic isolation from economic centers" but Finland is also geographically isolated (and even more so Japan before the Meiji restoration).
    , @Sam Coulton
    There isn't a "Germanic element" along the Spanish elite; they are German. All members of the House of Bourbon are descended from the Frankish Robertian dynasty, via Robert of Hesbaye.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France#Patrilineal_descent

    , @songbird
    The Sephardim are not especially smart.
    , @prime noticer
    "High IQ for Lisbon is surprising"

    probably because it's the big city, with test results like most big cities in post-1900 times where people can travel more easily. as urbanization happens over decades, more smarter people appear in the big city, with the average people staying behind in the countryside. leading to the same pattern we observe in most countries, where the big city in the country has higher test performance, and is less representative on average.

    this is part of Anatoly's skepticism about China. they only report on what's happening in their big cities. of course the performance is high. it's high in most big cities in developed nations. qualifiying ahead of time that i'm not sure how accurate all these numbers are, and the accuracy of test to test conversions, in this example, Lisbon is at wechsler 106, where in PISA 2018, the Chinese cities covert to about wechsler 108. which is about right in line with what you would predict, if across all nations you observed a big difference between the urban people and the countryside people over and over. the Chinese are a little better at these tests, apples to apples, big city people to big city people, but not by a big margin. instead, they're around where you would expect.
    , @endika
    you are wrong perhaps spain with a big part of latinoamerica is one of the few places in the so called "west" where the elites look completely spaniard :politicians, millionaires,intelectuals....
    , @Colin Wright
    '...in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites...'

    If that were an important factor, I would think the gradient would be reversed. Weren't Jews both more prominent and more numerous in the relatively affluent and Judeophilic Muslim South than in the backwards, rural, and aggressively Christian North?
    , @Mr. XYZ
    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews--and they don't appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.
  3. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    Solid performance of Portugal on the PISA is not a new thing. They’ve done a bit better in recent years but even a decade ago they did about the OECD average. The underperformance of Portugal is one of Europe’s great mysteries. They haven’t had a serious war in god knows how long, their borders have barely moved for centuries. The explanation given is typically “geographic isolation from economic centers” but Finland is also geographically isolated (and even more so Japan before the Meiji restoration).

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    It's odd that Portugal performs better on the PISA tests than Spain considering I would have thought Portugal would be similar at best.

    I'm not convinced Portugal's immigrant population is any higher quality than Spain's either, a large percentage of immigrants to Portugal are Africans from their former colonies and mixed blacks from Brazil. Portugal in percentage terms is significantly more African than Spain is.
    , @LondonBob
    Portugal imported African slaves that then mixed, hence the lower IQ and weak economy.
  4. The same guy posted this:

    Moscow’s native math scores is a measly 496, lower than many countries’ scores. Moscow is many things but an international cognitive center it is not. Merely mediocre at best. Flemish Belgians (i.e. Dutch) have a respectable 532. The score for native Dutch is exactly the same.

    My guess is that the scores for native Dutch in Amsterdam would be even higher, which is the comparative population for Moscow’s number. An even more interesting comparison would be Berlin, given Germany’s native scores (522). The scores for native Swedes in Stockholm should also be higher than the so-so national average (517).

    • Replies: @Sever
    Moscow region, not city. From what I recall, the region itself always had mediocre performance, but that would be expected given that the city would attract the brightest
    , @Toronto Russian
    Looking at this map and Norse scores... Quebec seems like a Norse country on the American continent.

    Mean math PISA of 532 - highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don't bother with official marriage - 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.

    *Most immigrants to Quebec come from China, France and India, so it's not due to importing francophone Africans in significant numbers.

    https://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/statistiques/population-demographie/bilan-demographique_an.html

    And Quebeckers have nothing to do with Scandinavian/Protestant ancestry. It's almost as if recent government policies (in this case creating a socially-oriented state) have more weight in shaping a population's character than its genetics or history.

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it's been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I'd rather stay here.
  5. @Thulean Friend
    The same guy posted this:

    https://i.imgur.com/Lmzs6vW.png

    Moscow's native math scores is a measly 496, lower than many countries' scores. Moscow is many things but an international cognitive center it is not. Merely mediocre at best. Flemish Belgians (i.e. Dutch) have a respectable 532. The score for native Dutch is exactly the same.

    https://i.imgur.com/j3zVcs3.jpg


    My guess is that the scores for native Dutch in Amsterdam would be even higher, which is the comparative population for Moscow's number. An even more interesting comparison would be Berlin, given Germany's native scores (522). The scores for native Swedes in Stockholm should also be higher than the so-so national average (517).

    Moscow region, not city. From what I recall, the region itself always had mediocre performance, but that would be expected given that the city would attract the brightest

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    Region includes the city. City regions are typically defined as the metropolitan area in PISA, which includes the suburbs. This is true for Stockholm, London, Amsterdam and Berlin, too.

    The data for all these city regions are in the microdata as I have previously mentioned (and I've posted some charts on them), freely available at the OECD website. One needs a program like Stata though.
  6. @Sever
    Moscow region, not city. From what I recall, the region itself always had mediocre performance, but that would be expected given that the city would attract the brightest

    Region includes the city. City regions are typically defined as the metropolitan area in PISA, which includes the suburbs. This is true for Stockholm, London, Amsterdam and Berlin, too.

    The data for all these city regions are in the microdata as I have previously mentioned (and I’ve posted some charts on them), freely available at the OECD website. One needs a program like Stata though.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-pisa-results-2015/

    Moscow (City) being just marginally above the Russian average would contradict results from PISA 2015 (fifth/~50 regions), PISA 2009 (substantially ahead of ~50 regions), and results from a massive Internet test (close third after SPB and Yaroslavl oblast out of all regions). It is highly unlikely.

    PS. Even the guy you linked to earlier has the average Math performance of Russian >1M cities at 515, averaged over PISA 2009-18. Again, how is it plausible that Moscow - which has Russia's highest percentage of people with tertiary education - would be below that?

    https://twitter.com/JakubowskiEvid/status/1201980658832302093/
  7. @Thulean Friend
    Region includes the city. City regions are typically defined as the metropolitan area in PISA, which includes the suburbs. This is true for Stockholm, London, Amsterdam and Berlin, too.

    The data for all these city regions are in the microdata as I have previously mentioned (and I've posted some charts on them), freely available at the OECD website. One needs a program like Stata though.

    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-pisa-results-2015/

    Moscow (City) being just marginally above the Russian average would contradict results from PISA 2015 (fifth/~50 regions), PISA 2009 (substantially ahead of ~50 regions), and results from a massive Internet test (close third after SPB and Yaroslavl oblast out of all regions). It is highly unlikely.

    PS. Even the guy you linked to earlier has the average Math performance of Russian >1M cities at 515, averaged over PISA 2009-18. Again, how is it plausible that Moscow – which has Russia’s highest percentage of people with tertiary education – would be below that?

    https://twitter.com/JakubowskiEvid/status/1201980658832302093/

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, Jackjack
    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.
     
    I assume this is because the cities of Saint Petersburg, Moscow and Sevastopol are their own federal subjects. But why are they subjects of their own to begin with? St. Pete and Moscow I can understand from their sheer size, but Sevastopol of some 450,000 people?
  8. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    There isn’t a “Germanic element” along the Spanish elite; they are German. All members of the House of Bourbon are descended from the Frankish Robertian dynasty, via Robert of Hesbaye.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France#Patrilineal_descent

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    There's a difference between descending from and being something. At this point they're as German as a Kazakh - only a bit, and that's from more recent royal family interbreeding
    , @Not Raul
    It’s interesting how well Western Germanics, particularly Franks, have done getting crowns.
  9. @Thulean Friend
    Solid performance of Portugal on the PISA is not a new thing. They've done a bit better in recent years but even a decade ago they did about the OECD average. The underperformance of Portugal is one of Europe's great mysteries. They haven't had a serious war in god knows how long, their borders have barely moved for centuries. The explanation given is typically "geographic isolation from economic centers" but Finland is also geographically isolated (and even more so Japan before the Meiji restoration).

    It’s odd that Portugal performs better on the PISA tests than Spain considering I would have thought Portugal would be similar at best.

    I’m not convinced Portugal’s immigrant population is any higher quality than Spain’s either, a large percentage of immigrants to Portugal are Africans from their former colonies and mixed blacks from Brazil. Portugal in percentage terms is significantly more African than Spain is.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    I’m not convinced Portugal’s immigrant population is any higher quality than Spain’s
     
    Me neither but that is AK's talking point not mine. Spain does have far more (including 2nd and 3rd gen) migrants than Portugal. However, focusing on immigrants here is a red herring. If you look at native math/reading scores, Portugal does slightly better. More importantly, if you look at PISA scores of the two from the early 2000s, they were quite close already back then.

    So, this is a case of two groups of people being relatively close in their cognitive profiles (which is what you'd expect from two neighbours!) yet differing quite a lot in their wealth despite Portugal not being disadvantaged in any typical case (wars, revolutions, invasions etc). Spain has a mildly better geographic position, but geographic determinism is an extremely weak card to play if you're lagging behind. Japan showed everyone that you can be nowhere near any advanced economic center (of that time) and still pull yourself to the 1st world league if you're good enough.

    IMHO, Portugal's relative backwardness is a almost as big a mystery as Russia's terrible performance. But Russia can at least use the wars/invasion argument to some extent (though then again so can Germany, yet Germany is far richer). Portugal doesn't even have that card to play.
  10. @Europe Europa
    It's odd that Portugal performs better on the PISA tests than Spain considering I would have thought Portugal would be similar at best.

    I'm not convinced Portugal's immigrant population is any higher quality than Spain's either, a large percentage of immigrants to Portugal are Africans from their former colonies and mixed blacks from Brazil. Portugal in percentage terms is significantly more African than Spain is.

    I’m not convinced Portugal’s immigrant population is any higher quality than Spain’s

    Me neither but that is AK’s talking point not mine. Spain does have far more (including 2nd and 3rd gen) migrants than Portugal. However, focusing on immigrants here is a red herring. If you look at native math/reading scores, Portugal does slightly better. More importantly, if you look at PISA scores of the two from the early 2000s, they were quite close already back then.

    So, this is a case of two groups of people being relatively close in their cognitive profiles (which is what you’d expect from two neighbours!) yet differing quite a lot in their wealth despite Portugal not being disadvantaged in any typical case (wars, revolutions, invasions etc). Spain has a mildly better geographic position, but geographic determinism is an extremely weak card to play if you’re lagging behind. Japan showed everyone that you can be nowhere near any advanced economic center (of that time) and still pull yourself to the 1st world league if you’re good enough.

    IMHO, Portugal’s relative backwardness is a almost as big a mystery as Russia’s terrible performance. But Russia can at least use the wars/invasion argument to some extent (though then again so can Germany, yet Germany is far richer). Portugal doesn’t even have that card to play.

  11. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    The Sephardim are not especially smart.

    • Replies: @gate666
    they have more noble prizes percapita than whites.
  12. Can you comment on the North – South gradient in Great Britain or Sweden? Well, you don’t really need to, Sailer had a post yesterday debating the simplistic latitudinal story.

    In both Italy and Spain, the gradient is caused by proximity to France which has been leaching both for the last three centuries. (You may disagree, but “austerity for thee but not for me” is still a thing in EU.) Just like the Romans built more in their peninsula than in Great Britain, it understandable that French are reinforcing their Turin and Lyon points of entry, and are less interested about Apulia or Andalucia.

    Again, the Italian government collapsed this summer, in part because M5S voted against that dirty Macronist railway to Lyon.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there's a difference.
  13. @Thulean Friend
    Solid performance of Portugal on the PISA is not a new thing. They've done a bit better in recent years but even a decade ago they did about the OECD average. The underperformance of Portugal is one of Europe's great mysteries. They haven't had a serious war in god knows how long, their borders have barely moved for centuries. The explanation given is typically "geographic isolation from economic centers" but Finland is also geographically isolated (and even more so Japan before the Meiji restoration).

    Portugal imported African slaves that then mixed, hence the lower IQ and weak economy.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Portugal imported African slaves that then mixed
     
    Some Iberian's have an Ethnic look to them that's hard to place. For example this Spanish potato farmer.


    https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/768x768/public/images/methode/2018/04/26/6d861e58-48e5-11e8-85b3-af25d27017e0_1280x720_143413.jpg?itok=ZrFiz4xM
  14. @LondonBob
    Portugal imported African slaves that then mixed, hence the lower IQ and weak economy.

    Portugal imported African slaves that then mixed

    Some Iberian’s have an Ethnic look to them that’s hard to place. For example this Spanish potato farmer.

    [MORE]

  15. @Dacian Julien Soros
    Can you comment on the North - South gradient in Great Britain or Sweden? Well, you don't really need to, Sailer had a post yesterday debating the simplistic latitudinal story.

    In both Italy and Spain, the gradient is caused by proximity to France which has been leaching both for the last three centuries. (You may disagree, but "austerity for thee but not for me" is still a thing in EU.) Just like the Romans built more in their peninsula than in Great Britain, it understandable that French are reinforcing their Turin and Lyon points of entry, and are less interested about Apulia or Andalucia.

    Again, the Italian government collapsed this summer, in part because M5S voted against that dirty Macronist railway to Lyon.

    In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there’s a difference.

    • Replies: @Jackjack
    It's not unusual in Europe:

    https://i.imgur.com/KKnVwgX.png
    https://i.imgur.com/y9uhiYZ.png
    https://i.imgur.com/XrL2B6o.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/1Y8HcSG.png
    , @utu
    " which I think is quite unusual globally speaking" - Not really. Bavaria in Germany.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/German_states_by_GDP_per_capita%2C_2018.jpg
    , @prime noticer
    "In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there’s a difference."

    you are correct, this is generally the case. i think in Britain the economic inversion is due to particular geographic reasons. it's an island, so it has no land borders for trade, to being with. with post-Industrial Revolution tech, the north is just a lot more limited in what it could do for mining, farming, industry, and shipping, so economic center of gravity remained around the south. Scotland, which is pretty much Stoneland, is generally garbage for a lot of the stuff you'd want to do with post year 1800 tech and international trade, other than mining coal, which is pretty much already complete, and if you have the tech for drilling for offshore oil, then pumping North Sea oil, which is all they have left. it's a sucky place to do most other stuff other than make Scotch or have strongman competitions.

    Britain has exactly the same north south differences as other nations in most other ways. the Scots are slightly smarter than the English, and are slightly bigger and stronger. outnumbered by the Romans and the English, they were often more effective man for man in medieval combat. the Romans wanted nothing to do with them and built a wall to keep them out. the English spent centuries trying to conquer them despite superior numbers.
  16. I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:
    Lisabon IQ-105, average IQ about 100…
    inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain

    And what’s the point of all this IQ-metric?
    Portugal has an ideal climate, it is ideally located (the ocean coast in the subtropics), Portugal (unlike Spain) has not had a devastating war since Napoleon. It turns out the Portuguese also have a remarkable IQ, higher than the Spaniards.
    But at the same time “inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain”. It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology-the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    • Agree: utu, Swedish Family, AaronB
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology
     
    We have found Taleb's soulmate.
    , @songbird
    I don't know if Portugal should be considered to have providential geography. It is near to Africa with weather that Africans would consider quite pleasant.

    The US really had providential geography. Too bad it was all squandered.
    , @AaronB

    the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.
     
    Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities - technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.

    It's a sort of Northern European Protestant cultural narcissism. The Protestant as the prototypical, default human :) Its the same "bewilderment" Northern European Protestants feel at the lack of "creativity" (socially disruptive technology) coming from the intelligent East Asians. How can smart people who share our goals and values - as they surely must - not produce socially disruptive ideas, like we do?

    So naturally, different results can only reflect differences in ability. If the assumption is correct, the conclusion naturally follows.

    It's almost as if Portugese, with an enviable climate and far from the turmoil of the more exciting parts of Europe, actually enjoy life :)
    , @Dmitry

    like astrology-the
     
    And what about astrology? This science has cool diagrams, and can explain things like air disasters.

    https://i.imgur.com/LDNr1jd.jpg

    http://astrohronos.ru/menu/_175_224/edit_article/2001.html

  17. @melanf

    I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:
    Lisabon IQ-105, average IQ about 100...
    inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain

     

    And what's the point of all this IQ-metric?
    Portugal has an ideal climate, it is ideally located (the ocean coast in the subtropics), Portugal (unlike Spain) has not had a devastating war since Napoleon. It turns out the Portuguese also have a remarkable IQ, higher than the Spaniards.
    But at the same time "inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain". It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology-the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology

    We have found Taleb’s soulmate.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn't identify as one).
  18. @Europe Europa
    In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there's a difference.

    It’s not unusual in Europe:

  19. @Europe Europa
    In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there's a difference.

    ” which I think is quite unusual globally speaking” – Not really. Bavaria in Germany.

    • Agree: Jackjack
  20. @Anatoly Karlin
    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-pisa-results-2015/

    Moscow (City) being just marginally above the Russian average would contradict results from PISA 2015 (fifth/~50 regions), PISA 2009 (substantially ahead of ~50 regions), and results from a massive Internet test (close third after SPB and Yaroslavl oblast out of all regions). It is highly unlikely.

    PS. Even the guy you linked to earlier has the average Math performance of Russian >1M cities at 515, averaged over PISA 2009-18. Again, how is it plausible that Moscow - which has Russia's highest percentage of people with tertiary education - would be below that?

    https://twitter.com/JakubowskiEvid/status/1201980658832302093/

    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.

    I assume this is because the cities of Saint Petersburg, Moscow and Sevastopol are their own federal subjects. But why are they subjects of their own to begin with? St. Pete and Moscow I can understand from their sheer size, but Sevastopol of some 450,000 people?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    This is a legacy of Sevastopol having been separate from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea during its stay within the UkSSR. Perhaps it will be formally incorporated into the Republic of Crimea one day.
  21. @melanf

    I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:
    Lisabon IQ-105, average IQ about 100...
    inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain

     

    And what's the point of all this IQ-metric?
    Portugal has an ideal climate, it is ideally located (the ocean coast in the subtropics), Portugal (unlike Spain) has not had a devastating war since Napoleon. It turns out the Portuguese also have a remarkable IQ, higher than the Spaniards.
    But at the same time "inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain". It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology-the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    I don’t know if Portugal should be considered to have providential geography. It is near to Africa with weather that Africans would consider quite pleasant.

    The US really had providential geography. Too bad it was all squandered.

    • Replies: @melanf

    I don’t know if Portugal should be considered to have providential geography. It is near to Africa with weather that Africans would consider quite pleasant.
     
    Portugal has a subtropical climate without extreme heat (unlike Spain), and without drought (unlike Spain). Climatically, Portugal is better than California with its deserts. Known me HBD explanation of features of development of Portugal such: Portugal the only European state where in the past were many black slaves (not in colonies, but in "mainland" Portugal) and this affected IQ.
    But if the Portuguese IQ is noticeably higher than the Spanish then this "explanation" is nonsense. And you can compare Portugal with Iceland, where the population according to the results of tests has an extremely low IQ, but significantly exceeds the Portuguese in income..
    Conclusion: IQ metrics today can not capture the real forces that determine human development. All these tests are interesting, probably help to develop education, but nothing more.
  22. @Sam Coulton
    There isn't a "Germanic element" along the Spanish elite; they are German. All members of the House of Bourbon are descended from the Frankish Robertian dynasty, via Robert of Hesbaye.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France#Patrilineal_descent

    There’s a difference between descending from and being something. At this point they’re as German as a Kazakh – only a bit, and that’s from more recent royal family interbreeding

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton

    At this point they’re as German as a Kazakh – only a bit, and that’s from more recent royal family interbreeding
     
    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD. Retard. Kazakhs aren't remotely German.

    There’s a difference between descending from and being something
     
    So are you saying you are not a son of God? You do realize that all men are the son of God, correct?

    "I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. But you shall die like men . . .'" (Psalm 82:6-7)

    "Science can have no quarrel with a religion which postulates a God to whom men are as His children." - Arthur Compton

    You have no fucking idea about the House or Bourbon's genetic ancestry or even a basic idea of the role of patrilineal descent in human ethnic identity. I suggest you shut your deracinated mouth and listen to the people who do.

  23. @Thulean Friend

    It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology
     
    We have found Taleb's soulmate.

    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn’t identify as one).

    • Replies: @melanf

    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn’t identify as one)
     
    Perhaps Thulean Friend has modern progressive views on, hmmm, personal life of other individual. In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man, here I am with my wife ( for the interlocutors from progressive countries - I have dark hair)

    https://c.radikal.ru/c17/1912/81/7aa1f0f183b7.jpg

  24. I would have expected Catalonia on the top.

    • Replies: @BlackFlag
    What percentage of 15 year olds in Catalonia are native Catalans? 20%?
  25. @aedib
    I would have expected Catalonia on the top.

    What percentage of 15 year olds in Catalonia are native Catalans? 20%?

    • Replies: @aedib
    Around 40%

    But you are OK: too much moors and sudacas.
  26. @Svevlad
    There's a difference between descending from and being something. At this point they're as German as a Kazakh - only a bit, and that's from more recent royal family interbreeding

    At this point they’re as German as a Kazakh – only a bit, and that’s from more recent royal family interbreeding

    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD. Retard. Kazakhs aren’t remotely German.

    There’s a difference between descending from and being something

    So are you saying you are not a son of God? You do realize that all men are the son of God, correct?

    “I said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. But you shall die like men . . .’” (Psalm 82:6-7)

    “Science can have no quarrel with a religion which postulates a God to whom men are as His children.” – Arthur Compton

    You have no fucking idea about the House or Bourbon’s genetic ancestry or even a basic idea of the role of patrilineal descent in human ethnic identity. I suggest you shut your deracinated mouth and listen to the people who do.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD.
     
    And their Mohammedan ancestry to several centuries thereafter.


    The Muslim Princess Zaida, An Ancestor of the British Royal Family in al-Andalus

    , @Brown boi
    The Bible says to put your sword away for spiritual weapons
  27. Very unsurprising results for Spain and nothing much to comment on, especially the pervasive North-South (de)cline.

    The lead of Navarre over the Basque Country is also an expected outcome, since the native population of both areas are very closely related but the Basque Country has a larger percentage of non-native inhabitants (~60% vs ~40% in Navarre, more or less).

    Most of this non-native population descends from other regions of Spain and the rest are Latin Americans, Muslims, Romanians and others, probably in that order. So, in fact, both regions should do better without this immigrant component but this effect would be difficult to detect in an ordinary PISA breakdown of natives/immigrants, as an Andalusian would be a “native” in the Basque Country/Navarre.

    The poor results in Catalonia are also probably explained by their high share of immigrants, perhaps even higher than the Basque Country with a larger component of non-Europeans, but PISA results are also heavily dependent on the quality of the education system and this is highly decentralized in Spain. Maybe the Catalan language zealotry they have adopted there is not helping them academically.

    I’m not very sure about Portugal’s lag. But Spain would probably look much more like Portugal if it hadn’t had the Catalan and Basque industrial centers since the 19th century.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  28. I was somewhat surprised at the Galician score of 504. “Los Gallegos” bear the brunt of ethnic jokes (think Polack, Irish jokes in the US) in the Southern Cone of South America. They are thought of as brutishly stubborn rubes there. Even the culture in Galicia is very similar to Portugal, with Galician language and classical literature being very close to Portuguese. Fidel Castro is of Galician lineage too.

    • Replies: @Matra
    In Brazil they make similar jokes about the Portuguese.
  29. @Jim bob Lassiter
    I was somewhat surprised at the Galician score of 504. "Los Gallegos" bear the brunt of ethnic jokes (think Polack, Irish jokes in the US) in the Southern Cone of South America. They are thought of as brutishly stubborn rubes there. Even the culture in Galicia is very similar to Portugal, with Galician language and classical literature being very close to Portuguese. Fidel Castro is of Galician lineage too.

    In Brazil they make similar jokes about the Portuguese.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
    You mean os pretos do norte make jokes about the Portuguese?
  30. “Spain has recently started to do marginally worse than Portugal in PISA assessments, though one must also adjust for Spain having more in the way of low quality immigrants.”

    young smart Spanish people starting leaving Spain for Germany after the Great Recession. although that wouldn’t explain the bulk of what’s going on with 15 year olds in Spain in 2018. but in the future that brain drain could appear more prominently in the numbers from those smart people leaving and either taking their young kids with them, or never having kids in Spain in the first place.

    it’s surprising that Madrid isn’t where the smartest people in Spain are, but maybe that’s because Madrid is where all the reverse-colonial people are showing up, driving down the academic test performance.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    In Northern Spain, it is also full of South Americans immigrants.

    I think South Americans have distributed evenly across Spain actually. So in Basque country, you can visit areas which are full of Colombian and Brazilian shops.

    There are also very large numbers of Arabs in the streets there (you notice only when people in streets are speaking Arabic though, because the visual difference is not that large from a lot of Spanish people).
  31. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    “High IQ for Lisbon is surprising”

    probably because it’s the big city, with test results like most big cities in post-1900 times where people can travel more easily. as urbanization happens over decades, more smarter people appear in the big city, with the average people staying behind in the countryside. leading to the same pattern we observe in most countries, where the big city in the country has higher test performance, and is less representative on average.

    this is part of Anatoly’s skepticism about China. they only report on what’s happening in their big cities. of course the performance is high. it’s high in most big cities in developed nations. qualifiying ahead of time that i’m not sure how accurate all these numbers are, and the accuracy of test to test conversions, in this example, Lisbon is at wechsler 106, where in PISA 2018, the Chinese cities covert to about wechsler 108. which is about right in line with what you would predict, if across all nations you observed a big difference between the urban people and the countryside people over and over. the Chinese are a little better at these tests, apples to apples, big city people to big city people, but not by a big margin. instead, they’re around where you would expect.

  32. The European countries don’t cover a large range of latitudes and have long histories of internal movement etc. It would be silly to expect large and clear North, South differences within those countries caused by adaptation to different climates in different regions.

    Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside.

    Both must have received a lot of DNA in their southern regions from Muslims invading from Africa in the thousand year ago range. Both have spent a lot of time over the intervening 1000 years split into various smaller states. Northern Italy likely also received DNA from Northern Europe during the following centuries, Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire etc. Spain may have had some of this too, though probably less.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
    "Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside. " True enough, but Spain and Italy also have lots of micro climates based on altitude and distances from warm Mediterranean breezes. To a lesser extent France also.
    , @Agathoklis
    Actually the evidence suggests there was little remaining North African genetic imprint on Spain.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9
    , @Sam Coulton
    There is genetic evidence for only a scanty contribution of North African genes to southern Europe, and according to fossil DNA and TMRCA dating, most of it happened during the Roman Imperial period, not the Islamic migrations.
  33. @Matra
    In Brazil they make similar jokes about the Portuguese.

    You mean os pretos do norte make jokes about the Portuguese?

  34. @Europe Europa
    In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there's a difference.

    “In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there’s a difference.”

    you are correct, this is generally the case. i think in Britain the economic inversion is due to particular geographic reasons. it’s an island, so it has no land borders for trade, to being with. with post-Industrial Revolution tech, the north is just a lot more limited in what it could do for mining, farming, industry, and shipping, so economic center of gravity remained around the south. Scotland, which is pretty much Stoneland, is generally garbage for a lot of the stuff you’d want to do with post year 1800 tech and international trade, other than mining coal, which is pretty much already complete, and if you have the tech for drilling for offshore oil, then pumping North Sea oil, which is all they have left. it’s a sucky place to do most other stuff other than make Scotch or have strongman competitions.

    Britain has exactly the same north south differences as other nations in most other ways. the Scots are slightly smarter than the English, and are slightly bigger and stronger. outnumbered by the Romans and the English, they were often more effective man for man in medieval combat. the Romans wanted nothing to do with them and built a wall to keep them out. the English spent centuries trying to conquer them despite superior numbers.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers' money through the "Barnett Formula". Scots are basically known for alcoholism and having terrible, fatty diets as well as having a significantly higher propensity to violence than English people. Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe. I find it difficult to believe they have a higher average IQ than the English.

    The average Irish IQ is 5 points lower than the British IQ (which presumably includes Scotland, Wales and NI), so it's highly likely that the English IQ is over 100. It seems probable to me that the average Scottish IQ is somewhere between the Irish IQ and the English IQ, considering the Scots are more Celtic.

  35. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    you are wrong perhaps spain with a big part of latinoamerica is one of the few places in the so called “west” where the elites look completely spaniard :politicians, millionaires,intelectuals….

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    The Spanish elite certainly look white, but I don't think a lot of them look stereotypically Spanish either. King Felipe looks atypical for a Spanish man in my opinion, someone who looks like him would normally be assumed to be a Northern European tourist or expat in Spain I would imagine.
  36. @Hesse Kassel
    The European countries don't cover a large range of latitudes and have long histories of internal movement etc. It would be silly to expect large and clear North, South differences within those countries caused by adaptation to different climates in different regions.

    Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside.

    Both must have received a lot of DNA in their southern regions from Muslims invading from Africa in the thousand year ago range. Both have spent a lot of time over the intervening 1000 years split into various smaller states. Northern Italy likely also received DNA from Northern Europe during the following centuries, Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire etc. Spain may have had some of this too, though probably less.

    “Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside. ” True enough, but Spain and Italy also have lots of micro climates based on altitude and distances from warm Mediterranean breezes. To a lesser extent France also.

  37. @Sam Coulton

    At this point they’re as German as a Kazakh – only a bit, and that’s from more recent royal family interbreeding
     
    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD. Retard. Kazakhs aren't remotely German.

    There’s a difference between descending from and being something
     
    So are you saying you are not a son of God? You do realize that all men are the son of God, correct?

    "I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. But you shall die like men . . .'" (Psalm 82:6-7)

    "Science can have no quarrel with a religion which postulates a God to whom men are as His children." - Arthur Compton

    You have no fucking idea about the House or Bourbon's genetic ancestry or even a basic idea of the role of patrilineal descent in human ethnic identity. I suggest you shut your deracinated mouth and listen to the people who do.

    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD.

    And their Mohammedan ancestry to several centuries thereafter.

    The Muslim Princess Zaida, An Ancestor of the British Royal Family in al-Andalus

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    There is no "Mohammedan" ancestry in the Germanic House of Bourbon in Spain.

    Your "Princess Zaida" individual married in to the autochthonous House of Jimenez (a now extinct family with no descendants in the House of Bourbon).

  38. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    ‘…in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites…’

    If that were an important factor, I would think the gradient would be reversed. Weren’t Jews both more prominent and more numerous in the relatively affluent and Judeophilic Muslim South than in the backwards, rural, and aggressively Christian North?

  39. @songbird
    I don't know if Portugal should be considered to have providential geography. It is near to Africa with weather that Africans would consider quite pleasant.

    The US really had providential geography. Too bad it was all squandered.

    I don’t know if Portugal should be considered to have providential geography. It is near to Africa with weather that Africans would consider quite pleasant.

    Portugal has a subtropical climate without extreme heat (unlike Spain), and without drought (unlike Spain). Climatically, Portugal is better than California with its deserts. Known me HBD explanation of features of development of Portugal such: Portugal the only European state where in the past were many black slaves (not in colonies, but in “mainland” Portugal) and this affected IQ.
    But if the Portuguese IQ is noticeably higher than the Spanish then this “explanation” is nonsense. And you can compare Portugal with Iceland, where the population according to the results of tests has an extremely low IQ, but significantly exceeds the Portuguese in income..
    Conclusion: IQ metrics today can not capture the real forces that determine human development. All these tests are interesting, probably help to develop education, but nothing more.

  40. @Daniel Chieh
    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn't identify as one).

    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn’t identify as one)

    Perhaps Thulean Friend has modern progressive views on, hmmm, personal life of other individual. In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man, here I am with my wife ( for the interlocutors from progressive countries – I have dark hair)

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man
     
    I appreciate the steps you are willing to take to assauge our concerns on this most pressing matter.
    , @Mr. Hack
    https://www.justformen.com/media/catalog/product/cache/b44e0b9335c0488a31c8fefe0ce4b1fa/h/5/h50_3.png

    We from the West, know how it's done! :-)
  41. @melanf

    I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:
    Lisabon IQ-105, average IQ about 100...
    inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain

     

    And what's the point of all this IQ-metric?
    Portugal has an ideal climate, it is ideally located (the ocean coast in the subtropics), Portugal (unlike Spain) has not had a devastating war since Napoleon. It turns out the Portuguese also have a remarkable IQ, higher than the Spaniards.
    But at the same time "inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain". It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology-the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities – technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.

    It’s a sort of Northern European Protestant cultural narcissism. The Protestant as the prototypical, default human 🙂 Its the same “bewilderment” Northern European Protestants feel at the lack of “creativity” (socially disruptive technology) coming from the intelligent East Asians. How can smart people who share our goals and values – as they surely must – not produce socially disruptive ideas, like we do?

    So naturally, different results can only reflect differences in ability. If the assumption is correct, the conclusion naturally follows.

    It’s almost as if Portugese, with an enviable climate and far from the turmoil of the more exciting parts of Europe, actually enjoy life 🙂

    • Replies: @endika
    i wish
    our portugese brothers are emigrating in masse to england and spanish graduates to germany
    , @Colin Wright
    'Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities – technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.'

    Ahem.

    No.

    The whole point of an IQ test is that the score will correlate to your intelligence, regardless of your motivation or your cultural background.

    You can pull a budding genius out of his first grade class and tell him to take this test -- without explaining why you want him to or what it's for.

    He'll score 160 -- even if his primary interest in life at this point is fighting in the schoolyard at recess.

    They've also produced culture-free IQ tests that will average the same for groups whether they're college students in Massachusetts or hunters in Arctic Siberia.

    You are -- as usual -- completely wrong.
  42. @melanf

    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn’t identify as one)
     
    Perhaps Thulean Friend has modern progressive views on, hmmm, personal life of other individual. In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man, here I am with my wife ( for the interlocutors from progressive countries - I have dark hair)

    https://c.radikal.ru/c17/1912/81/7aa1f0f183b7.jpg

    In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man

    I appreciate the steps you are willing to take to assauge our concerns on this most pressing matter.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Was trying to hit agree.
  43. @AaronB

    the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.
     
    Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities - technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.

    It's a sort of Northern European Protestant cultural narcissism. The Protestant as the prototypical, default human :) Its the same "bewilderment" Northern European Protestants feel at the lack of "creativity" (socially disruptive technology) coming from the intelligent East Asians. How can smart people who share our goals and values - as they surely must - not produce socially disruptive ideas, like we do?

    So naturally, different results can only reflect differences in ability. If the assumption is correct, the conclusion naturally follows.

    It's almost as if Portugese, with an enviable climate and far from the turmoil of the more exciting parts of Europe, actually enjoy life :)

    i wish
    our portugese brothers are emigrating in masse to england and spanish graduates to germany

  44. @Hesse Kassel
    The European countries don't cover a large range of latitudes and have long histories of internal movement etc. It would be silly to expect large and clear North, South differences within those countries caused by adaptation to different climates in different regions.

    Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside.

    Both must have received a lot of DNA in their southern regions from Muslims invading from Africa in the thousand year ago range. Both have spent a lot of time over the intervening 1000 years split into various smaller states. Northern Italy likely also received DNA from Northern Europe during the following centuries, Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire etc. Spain may have had some of this too, though probably less.

    Actually the evidence suggests there was little remaining North African genetic imprint on Spain.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9

  45. @Sam Coulton

    At this point they’re as German as a Kazakh – only a bit, and that’s from more recent royal family interbreeding
     
    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD. Retard. Kazakhs aren't remotely German.

    There’s a difference between descending from and being something
     
    So are you saying you are not a son of God? You do realize that all men are the son of God, correct?

    "I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. But you shall die like men . . .'" (Psalm 82:6-7)

    "Science can have no quarrel with a religion which postulates a God to whom men are as His children." - Arthur Compton

    You have no fucking idea about the House or Bourbon's genetic ancestry or even a basic idea of the role of patrilineal descent in human ethnic identity. I suggest you shut your deracinated mouth and listen to the people who do.

    The Bible says to put your sword away for spiritual weapons

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    That is what Jesus said, a late minority figure in the new testament; who lived in a social and cognitive end time.

    The part of the Bible I quoted was written over one thousand years before Jesus was born -- and is therefore much closer to the original wisdom which existed during the grace period of human societies -- the one we are still largely riding off of.

    Christians are idiots thinking that anything a crackhead had to say was relevant. We are only beginning to recover from our diseased experiment with Jesus Christ.

  46. Where is the map with the PISA results for Italy? I would appreciate, thanks.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Not much change since 2009.

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/italy-apostate-pisa-scores.png
  47. @Dumbo
    Where is the map with the PISA results for Italy? I would appreciate, thanks.

    Not much change since 2009.

  48. @Reg Cæsar

    Uh, no, their Germanic ancestry stretches all the way back to the first millennium AD.
     
    And their Mohammedan ancestry to several centuries thereafter.


    The Muslim Princess Zaida, An Ancestor of the British Royal Family in al-Andalus

    There is no “Mohammedan” ancestry in the Germanic House of Bourbon in Spain.

    Your “Princess Zaida” individual married in to the autochthonous House of Jimenez (a now extinct family with no descendants in the House of Bourbon).

  49. @Hesse Kassel
    The European countries don't cover a large range of latitudes and have long histories of internal movement etc. It would be silly to expect large and clear North, South differences within those countries caused by adaptation to different climates in different regions.

    Spain and Italy are the main examples, but in both cases it is probably caused by intrusion from outside.

    Both must have received a lot of DNA in their southern regions from Muslims invading from Africa in the thousand year ago range. Both have spent a lot of time over the intervening 1000 years split into various smaller states. Northern Italy likely also received DNA from Northern Europe during the following centuries, Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire etc. Spain may have had some of this too, though probably less.

    There is genetic evidence for only a scanty contribution of North African genes to southern Europe, and according to fossil DNA and TMRCA dating, most of it happened during the Roman Imperial period, not the Islamic migrations.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    That is largely correct. It is actually remarkable how little North African genes are found in southern Europeans today.
  50. @BlackFlag
    What percentage of 15 year olds in Catalonia are native Catalans? 20%?

    Around 40%

    But you are OK: too much moors and sudacas.

  51. @Sam Coulton
    There is genetic evidence for only a scanty contribution of North African genes to southern Europe, and according to fossil DNA and TMRCA dating, most of it happened during the Roman Imperial period, not the Islamic migrations.

    That is largely correct. It is actually remarkable how little North African genes are found in southern Europeans today.

    • Replies: @Cutler
    Of course there was scant contribution from outside of Europe all dna/ pca analysis shows that and alongside the fact that the Islamic conquests were not folk movements but military conquests which often left the natives largely untouched in demographic terms but also after Europeans drove out the invaders they carried out ethnic cleansing to one degree or another and then underwent varying demographics expansions. Genetic differences with Europeans are negligible and differences are down to differing make up inherited from WHG/ EEF and IE many thousands of years ago.
    Talk of Mongols Huns Moors etc etc contributing to Europeans is nonsense and as such is irrelevant.
  52. @melanf

    melanf posts photos of pretty women, he is probably not a pretty woman(or doesn’t identify as one)
     
    Perhaps Thulean Friend has modern progressive views on, hmmm, personal life of other individual. In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man, here I am with my wife ( for the interlocutors from progressive countries - I have dark hair)

    https://c.radikal.ru/c17/1912/81/7aa1f0f183b7.jpg

    We from the West, know how it’s done! 🙂

  53. @Brown boi
    The Bible says to put your sword away for spiritual weapons

    That is what Jesus said, a late minority figure in the new testament; who lived in a social and cognitive end time.

    The part of the Bible I quoted was written over one thousand years before Jesus was born — and is therefore much closer to the original wisdom which existed during the grace period of human societies — the one we are still largely riding off of.

    Christians are idiots thinking that anything a crackhead had to say was relevant. We are only beginning to recover from our diseased experiment with Jesus Christ.

  54. @prime noticer
    "In Britain the South is wealthier than the North, which I think is quite unusual globally speaking. In most other developed countries the North is almost always the wealthier part if there’s a difference."

    you are correct, this is generally the case. i think in Britain the economic inversion is due to particular geographic reasons. it's an island, so it has no land borders for trade, to being with. with post-Industrial Revolution tech, the north is just a lot more limited in what it could do for mining, farming, industry, and shipping, so economic center of gravity remained around the south. Scotland, which is pretty much Stoneland, is generally garbage for a lot of the stuff you'd want to do with post year 1800 tech and international trade, other than mining coal, which is pretty much already complete, and if you have the tech for drilling for offshore oil, then pumping North Sea oil, which is all they have left. it's a sucky place to do most other stuff other than make Scotch or have strongman competitions.

    Britain has exactly the same north south differences as other nations in most other ways. the Scots are slightly smarter than the English, and are slightly bigger and stronger. outnumbered by the Romans and the English, they were often more effective man for man in medieval combat. the Romans wanted nothing to do with them and built a wall to keep them out. the English spent centuries trying to conquer them despite superior numbers.

    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers’ money through the “Barnett Formula”. Scots are basically known for alcoholism and having terrible, fatty diets as well as having a significantly higher propensity to violence than English people. Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe. I find it difficult to believe they have a higher average IQ than the English.

    The average Irish IQ is 5 points lower than the British IQ (which presumably includes Scotland, Wales and NI), so it’s highly likely that the English IQ is over 100. It seems probable to me that the average Scottish IQ is somewhere between the Irish IQ and the English IQ, considering the Scots are more Celtic.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    Violence and IQ aren't really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA's.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence -- European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    , @melanf

    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English
     
    Based on historical achievements per capita, the Scots are "smarter" than the English. Actually according to this criterion, they are probably superior to any nation on earth except the ancient Greeks, and possibly Jews. There is no great mystery in this - the Scottish educational system for several centuries was superior to the English, and this difference was outlined even before the spread of Calvinism.
    , @Matra
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers’ money through the “Barnett Formula”

    Yes, especially when you consider that Scotland lost a lot of its intelligent population to places with more opportunities
    - both the Empire and England itself. (A surprisingly significant chunk of the successful old white Dominions- eg. Canada - are actually more Scottish than English).

    Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe.

    I don't know about recent decades but I think in the 20th century Glasgow's famously high rate of violent criminality was largely due to the city's Irish diaspora.

  55. @endika
    you are wrong perhaps spain with a big part of latinoamerica is one of the few places in the so called "west" where the elites look completely spaniard :politicians, millionaires,intelectuals....

    The Spanish elite certainly look white, but I don’t think a lot of them look stereotypically Spanish either. King Felipe looks atypical for a Spanish man in my opinion, someone who looks like him would normally be assumed to be a Northern European tourist or expat in Spain I would imagine.

    • Replies: @Xènius
    I’m afraid you have an erroneous idea of what the typical Spaniard looks like. Felipe is handsome and tall, but he’s dark-haired, blue-eyed and not particularly pale, which is quite common in Spain and Italy.
    , @endika
    obviously the king have french and german ancestry a process of intermarring that date back to the reconquista but only the king used to intermarry with other european kings for political reasons .
  56. @Thulean Friend

    In order that nobody thought about me as a progressive man
     
    I appreciate the steps you are willing to take to assauge our concerns on this most pressing matter.

    Was trying to hit agree.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    You can change it. Mr Unz upgraded the system.
  57. @songbird
    The Sephardim are not especially smart.

    they have more noble prizes percapita than whites.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    For physics and chemistry or for literature and peace?
    , @songbird
    This is true, but they aren't especially noted for their intelligence within Israel. Of course, there are technical arguments about what a Sephardic Jew actually is, but the estimate that I'm aware of is about an average IQ of 97
  58. @Europe Europa
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers' money through the "Barnett Formula". Scots are basically known for alcoholism and having terrible, fatty diets as well as having a significantly higher propensity to violence than English people. Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe. I find it difficult to believe they have a higher average IQ than the English.

    The average Irish IQ is 5 points lower than the British IQ (which presumably includes Scotland, Wales and NI), so it's highly likely that the English IQ is over 100. It seems probable to me that the average Scottish IQ is somewhere between the Irish IQ and the English IQ, considering the Scots are more Celtic.

    Violence and IQ aren’t really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence — European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    • Replies: @aedib
    King Felipe look is not uncommon in South West Europe. He doesn’t looks like a Northern European.
    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look? Dolph Lundgren? Angela Merkel?
    , @Europe Europa
    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they're practically identical to the Scots, being Celts? Or are IQ rankings basically a load of garbage? If the Scots are more intelligent than the English then what you're saying is that the Scots must have an average IQ of say 102-103, while Irish have an average IQ of 95. That's a big difference for such similar people.

    IQ rankings seem heavily politically motivated, as in "the countries I like have high IQs, the countries I dislike have lower IQs". A lot of people present IQ data as indisputable fact, until a country they like is ranked low IQ and then it's suddenly all a load of rubbish and unscientific.

    , @melanf

    Violence and IQ aren’t really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century;
     
    This is not entirely accurate, since under Tokugawa Japan was indeed a super-calm country. For 250 years, Japan did not know wars, and the level of criminality was ultra-low in comparison with Europe at the time.
    , @utu
    "...and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s." - Not true. See Figures 1 and 2 in
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1088767912449624
  59. @Sam Coulton
    Violence and IQ aren't really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA's.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence -- European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    King Felipe look is not uncommon in South West Europe. He doesn’t looks like a Northern European.
    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look? Dolph Lundgren? Angela Merkel?

    • Replies: @melanf

    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look?
     
    Light pigmented with very broad faces.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/a1/25/f4a12524108fc1d44ef3577d0472ead4.jpg

    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vazhskiy/14498672/16264/16264_640.jpg

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.

  60. @Sam Coulton
    Violence and IQ aren't really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA's.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence -- European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they’re practically identical to the Scots, being Celts? Or are IQ rankings basically a load of garbage? If the Scots are more intelligent than the English then what you’re saying is that the Scots must have an average IQ of say 102-103, while Irish have an average IQ of 95. That’s a big difference for such similar people.

    IQ rankings seem heavily politically motivated, as in “the countries I like have high IQs, the countries I dislike have lower IQs”. A lot of people present IQ data as indisputable fact, until a country they like is ranked low IQ and then it’s suddenly all a load of rubbish and unscientific.

    • Replies: @melanf

    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they’re practically identical to the Scots, being Celts?
     
    As far as I know the lowland Scots (ie, the bulk of the Scots) are the descendants of the Germanic tribes invaded the Islands
    , @Sam Coulton
    Both Irish, English and Scottish people are genetically Celtic and carry Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups descended directly from the original proto-Celtic Bell Beaker people, as well as the iron age Celtic invaders. Only a small portion of British DNA is Germanic. The English language and phenotype is also predominantly iron-age Celtic.

    All populations have ethnic variation in IQ.

  61. @Europe Europa
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers' money through the "Barnett Formula". Scots are basically known for alcoholism and having terrible, fatty diets as well as having a significantly higher propensity to violence than English people. Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe. I find it difficult to believe they have a higher average IQ than the English.

    The average Irish IQ is 5 points lower than the British IQ (which presumably includes Scotland, Wales and NI), so it's highly likely that the English IQ is over 100. It seems probable to me that the average Scottish IQ is somewhere between the Irish IQ and the English IQ, considering the Scots are more Celtic.

    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English

    Based on historical achievements per capita, the Scots are “smarter” than the English. Actually according to this criterion, they are probably superior to any nation on earth except the ancient Greeks, and possibly Jews. There is no great mystery in this – the Scottish educational system for several centuries was superior to the English, and this difference was outlined even before the spread of Calvinism.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    It seems everyone is smarter than the English, it's a wonder to me that Britain is ranked at 100 at all. Surely the English average IQ is more like 80? Seems to be the opinion of many here.
  62. @melanf

    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English
     
    Based on historical achievements per capita, the Scots are "smarter" than the English. Actually according to this criterion, they are probably superior to any nation on earth except the ancient Greeks, and possibly Jews. There is no great mystery in this - the Scottish educational system for several centuries was superior to the English, and this difference was outlined even before the spread of Calvinism.

    It seems everyone is smarter than the English, it’s a wonder to me that Britain is ranked at 100 at all. Surely the English average IQ is more like 80? Seems to be the opinion of many here.

    • Replies: @melanf

    It seems everyone is smarter than the English
     
    If you read carefully, I wrote something completely different, namely: if you calculate the historical achievements in science/technology/art per capita, the Scots are superior to all except the ancient Greeks.
    I highly doubt that today the IQ of the Scots is any different from the IQ of the English. But in the 18th century, the Scots in this parameter surpassed the English as they had the best schools and the best universities, and a greater percentage of the literate
  63. @Europe Europa
    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they're practically identical to the Scots, being Celts? Or are IQ rankings basically a load of garbage? If the Scots are more intelligent than the English then what you're saying is that the Scots must have an average IQ of say 102-103, while Irish have an average IQ of 95. That's a big difference for such similar people.

    IQ rankings seem heavily politically motivated, as in "the countries I like have high IQs, the countries I dislike have lower IQs". A lot of people present IQ data as indisputable fact, until a country they like is ranked low IQ and then it's suddenly all a load of rubbish and unscientific.

    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they’re practically identical to the Scots, being Celts?

    As far as I know the lowland Scots (ie, the bulk of the Scots) are the descendants of the Germanic tribes invaded the Islands

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    The Scots are generally labelled "Celtic" and the English "Germanic/Saxon". What do you think of the idea that the English genetically speaking may be more native "Celtic/islander" than the Scots in reality and despite assimilating a Germanic language are not actually that Germanic in a genetic sense?
  64. @Europe Europa
    It seems everyone is smarter than the English, it's a wonder to me that Britain is ranked at 100 at all. Surely the English average IQ is more like 80? Seems to be the opinion of many here.

    It seems everyone is smarter than the English

    If you read carefully, I wrote something completely different, namely: if you calculate the historical achievements in science/technology/art per capita, the Scots are superior to all except the ancient Greeks.
    I highly doubt that today the IQ of the Scots is any different from the IQ of the English. But in the 18th century, the Scots in this parameter surpassed the English as they had the best schools and the best universities, and a greater percentage of the literate

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    18th century, the Scots
     
    Scotland were also very advanced in city design (in that epoch especially).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-2rPFyG2bg
  65. @melanf

    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they’re practically identical to the Scots, being Celts?
     
    As far as I know the lowland Scots (ie, the bulk of the Scots) are the descendants of the Germanic tribes invaded the Islands

    The Scots are generally labelled “Celtic” and the English “Germanic/Saxon”. What do you think of the idea that the English genetically speaking may be more native “Celtic/islander” than the Scots in reality and despite assimilating a Germanic language are not actually that Germanic in a genetic sense?

  66. @Sam Coulton
    Violence and IQ aren't really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA's.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence -- European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    Violence and IQ aren’t really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century;

    This is not entirely accurate, since under Tokugawa Japan was indeed a super-calm country. For 250 years, Japan did not know wars, and the level of criminality was ultra-low in comparison with Europe at the time.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    You must be another crack smoker; we seem to attract a lot of them here. The Tokugawa period was marked by constant civil war, interpersonal homicide, sexual assault, piracy, and diarrhea, as witnessed not just by the Japanese but by European explorers who made it there.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/29766810?seq=1
  67. @Sam Coulton
    Violence and IQ aren't really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century; social disputes often had go be settled by fatal violence and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA's.

    I would expect Scots to be more intelligent than the British due to their higher Steppe ancestry which seems to correlate with intelligence -- European IQ peaks in Belarus.

    There is also the inconvenient fact that Scotland is the birthplace of the modern world and its market system.

    “…and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s.” – Not true. See Figures 1 and 2 in
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1088767912449624

    • Troll: Sam Coulton
    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing in that document that refutes anything I said.
  68. To get a better picture,

    Europe natives results:

    Spain and Europe merged:

    Spain regions highlighted in red:

    • Replies: @melanf

    Europe natives results:
    Aragon (natives) 509,
    Russia (natives) 488,
    Scotland (natives) 487
     
    Who can believe that? Does such a person exist? The average inhabitant of Russia (with the Caucasus, Tuva and hunters of Siberia) is smarter than the average Scot? A resident of Aragon (Spain's poorest province) is smarter than the average Scot by 20 points?
    , @Not Raul
    I’m surprised that Valencia did relatively poorly.
  69. @aedib
    King Felipe look is not uncommon in South West Europe. He doesn’t looks like a Northern European.
    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look? Dolph Lundgren? Angela Merkel?

    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look?

    Light pigmented with very broad faces.

    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    If by "Nordicomans" you mean all anthropologists, yes.

    It's melanf vs the academic establishment on this one. My money is on the people who actually know what they're talking about.
    , @Dmitry
    The politician with one of the most frequent faces of Northern Europe, is Medvedev.

    I know this because I see people who look like him in many different nationalities.

    He could be English or German or Irish or Polish or French or Swedish or even Romanian.


    https://img4.eadaily.com/r650x450/o/323/807615f68273e2e2d7b3b64687faa.jpg

  70. @Jackjack
    To get a better picture,

    Europe natives results:

    https://i.imgur.com/SdBRFI3.png

    Spain and Europe merged:

    https://i.imgur.com/FY1ECSy.jpg

    Spain regions highlighted in red:

    https://i.imgur.com/gQjXJmH.png

    Europe natives results:
    Aragon (natives) 509,
    Russia (natives) 488,
    Scotland (natives) 487

    Who can believe that? Does such a person exist? The average inhabitant of Russia (with the Caucasus, Tuva and hunters of Siberia) is smarter than the average Scot? A resident of Aragon (Spain’s poorest province) is smarter than the average Scot by 20 points?

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    The Slavic Russian inhabitants of Russia are smarter than Scots. The best proxy for them are the closely related Belarussians.



    https://i.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpg
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Such minor differences aren't meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don't think it's absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian. Scotland has had dysgenic reproduction for at least half a century longer, and has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England) for 2-3 centuries.
  71. @gate666
    they have more noble prizes percapita than whites.

    For physics and chemistry or for literature and peace?

  72. @Europe Europa
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers' money through the "Barnett Formula". Scots are basically known for alcoholism and having terrible, fatty diets as well as having a significantly higher propensity to violence than English people. Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe. I find it difficult to believe they have a higher average IQ than the English.

    The average Irish IQ is 5 points lower than the British IQ (which presumably includes Scotland, Wales and NI), so it's highly likely that the English IQ is over 100. It seems probable to me that the average Scottish IQ is somewhere between the Irish IQ and the English IQ, considering the Scots are more Celtic.

    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers’ money through the “Barnett Formula”

    Yes, especially when you consider that Scotland lost a lot of its intelligent population to places with more opportunities
    – both the Empire and England itself. (A surprisingly significant chunk of the successful old white Dominions- eg. Canada – are actually more Scottish than English).

    Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe.

    I don’t know about recent decades but I think in the 20th century Glasgow’s famously high rate of violent criminality was largely due to the city’s Irish diaspora.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    Most posters here have no real clue about the UK as a whole. There seems to be a strong anti-English undercurrent among posters here which is probably the motivation for trying to portray the Scots as superior to the English and the pro-Irish, pro-Republican sentiment frequently seen here.

    The reality is no one with any real knowledge of Scotland and England in the 21st century would try to claim that the Scots are more intelligent and that Scotland is a more developed country than England because they would know how ridiculous that sounds. Not even the most ardent Scottish nationalists would try to claim that Scotland is more prosperous than England, especially Southern England.

  73. @Daniel Chieh
    Was trying to hit agree.

    You can change it. Mr Unz upgraded the system.

  74. @Swedish Family

    No, Sever is correct, Moscow region and Moscow city are separate things, unless they changed the methodology specifically this year.
     
    I assume this is because the cities of Saint Petersburg, Moscow and Sevastopol are their own federal subjects. But why are they subjects of their own to begin with? St. Pete and Moscow I can understand from their sheer size, but Sevastopol of some 450,000 people?

    This is a legacy of Sevastopol having been separate from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea during its stay within the UkSSR. Perhaps it will be formally incorporated into the Republic of Crimea one day.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    This is a legacy of Sevastopol having been separate from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea during its stay within the UkSSR. Perhaps it will be formally incorporated into the Republic of Crimea one day.
     
    Aha, thanks.
  75. @melanf

    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look?
     
    Light pigmented with very broad faces.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/a1/25/f4a12524108fc1d44ef3577d0472ead4.jpg

    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vazhskiy/14498672/16264/16264_640.jpg

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.

    If by “Nordicomans” you mean all anthropologists, yes.

    It’s melanf vs the academic establishment on this one. My money is on the people who actually know what they’re talking about.

    • Replies: @melanf

    If by “Nordicomans” you mean all anthropologists, yes.
     
    No, under nordicmans I mean the fans from the forums, a La "racial standards of nordids-Aryans"

    But anthropologists write approximately so

    "the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons is highlighted. This is a very long-headed, broad-faced population, with large head and face sizes, with pronounced "Germanic" proportions of the brain and facial skeleton." (Алексеева "Славяне и германцы")
    Here is a reconstruction of the Viking woman ( by the skull)

    https://golos.ua/images/items/2019-11/03/trg1XAjOUxl3BkCz/img_top.jpg

    Exceptionally wide faces of the Scandinavians visible on any group picture of these Scandinavians (well, except for the groups selected for looks or a special physical data). The Finns, Northern Russians and Balts also have wide faces - this is a common feature of the population of Northern Europe.

    https://c.radikal.ru/c26/1912/6e/50864e0ca2b1.jpg

  76. @melanf

    Europe natives results:
    Aragon (natives) 509,
    Russia (natives) 488,
    Scotland (natives) 487
     
    Who can believe that? Does such a person exist? The average inhabitant of Russia (with the Caucasus, Tuva and hunters of Siberia) is smarter than the average Scot? A resident of Aragon (Spain's poorest province) is smarter than the average Scot by 20 points?

    The Slavic Russian inhabitants of Russia are smarter than Scots. The best proxy for them are the closely related Belarussians.

    • LOL: utu
  77. @melanf

    I learned that there are also regional IQ results for Portugal:
    Lisabon IQ-105, average IQ about 100...
    inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain

     

    And what's the point of all this IQ-metric?
    Portugal has an ideal climate, it is ideally located (the ocean coast in the subtropics), Portugal (unlike Spain) has not had a devastating war since Napoleon. It turns out the Portuguese also have a remarkable IQ, higher than the Spaniards.
    But at the same time "inexplicably large productivity gap with Spain". It turns out that IQ-metric is something like astrology-the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.

    like astrology-the

    And what about astrology? This science has cool diagrams, and can explain things like air disasters.

    http://astrohronos.ru/menu/_175_224/edit_article/2001.html

  78. @utu
    "...and even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s." - Not true. See Figures 1 and 2 in
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1088767912449624

    There is nothing in that document that refutes anything I said.

    • Troll: utu
  79. @prime noticer
    "Spain has recently started to do marginally worse than Portugal in PISA assessments, though one must also adjust for Spain having more in the way of low quality immigrants."

    young smart Spanish people starting leaving Spain for Germany after the Great Recession. although that wouldn't explain the bulk of what's going on with 15 year olds in Spain in 2018. but in the future that brain drain could appear more prominently in the numbers from those smart people leaving and either taking their young kids with them, or never having kids in Spain in the first place.

    it's surprising that Madrid isn't where the smartest people in Spain are, but maybe that's because Madrid is where all the reverse-colonial people are showing up, driving down the academic test performance.

    In Northern Spain, it is also full of South Americans immigrants.

    I think South Americans have distributed evenly across Spain actually. So in Basque country, you can visit areas which are full of Colombian and Brazilian shops.

    There are also very large numbers of Arabs in the streets there (you notice only when people in streets are speaking Arabic though, because the visual difference is not that large from a lot of Spanish people).

    • Replies: @Miro23

    There are also very large numbers of Arabs in the streets there (you notice only when people in streets are speaking Arabic though, because the visual difference is not that large from a lot of Spanish people).
     
    There are lots of North Africans living in Valencia province and they are easily recognizable in the street (men and women). North African features a quite different from Spanish/Latin. On the other hand, Spaniards can be confused with Italians and some French.

    There are also plenty of South Americans and they are immediately recognizable since they are mostly Amerindians (apart from Argentineans who look 100% Spanish).

  80. @melanf

    Violence and IQ aren’t really related. Japan for example was an extremely violent country before the 20th century;
     
    This is not entirely accurate, since under Tokugawa Japan was indeed a super-calm country. For 250 years, Japan did not know wars, and the level of criminality was ultra-low in comparison with Europe at the time.

    You must be another crack smoker; we seem to attract a lot of them here. The Tokugawa period was marked by constant civil war, interpersonal homicide, sexual assault, piracy, and diarrhea, as witnessed not just by the Japanese but by European explorers who made it there.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/29766810?seq=1

    • Replies: @Oliver
    Constant civil wars in Edo period Japan? I'm curious which European explorers you are basing this off of, as only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki (Dejima) at the time. Only a few Europeans were allowed to travel around Edo Japan, such as Engelbert Kaempfer, Philipp Franz von Siebold, Carl Peter Thunberg, etc.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    But that is about crime in Japan from 1950-1988, not Edo period. Also, the numbers in this source doesn't really match up with your claim - "even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s."

    https://imgur.com/XU2S7sS

  81. @Europe Europa
    The Spanish elite certainly look white, but I don't think a lot of them look stereotypically Spanish either. King Felipe looks atypical for a Spanish man in my opinion, someone who looks like him would normally be assumed to be a Northern European tourist or expat in Spain I would imagine.

    I’m afraid you have an erroneous idea of what the typical Spaniard looks like. Felipe is handsome and tall, but he’s dark-haired, blue-eyed and not particularly pale, which is quite common in Spain and Italy.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe's look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).
  82. @Europe Europa
    Why is the Irish IQ so low then considering they're practically identical to the Scots, being Celts? Or are IQ rankings basically a load of garbage? If the Scots are more intelligent than the English then what you're saying is that the Scots must have an average IQ of say 102-103, while Irish have an average IQ of 95. That's a big difference for such similar people.

    IQ rankings seem heavily politically motivated, as in "the countries I like have high IQs, the countries I dislike have lower IQs". A lot of people present IQ data as indisputable fact, until a country they like is ranked low IQ and then it's suddenly all a load of rubbish and unscientific.

    Both Irish, English and Scottish people are genetically Celtic and carry Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups descended directly from the original proto-Celtic Bell Beaker people, as well as the iron age Celtic invaders. Only a small portion of British DNA is Germanic. The English language and phenotype is also predominantly iron-age Celtic.

    All populations have ethnic variation in IQ.

  83. @melanf

    By the way, what’s the average Northern European look?
     
    Light pigmented with very broad faces.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/a1/25/f4a12524108fc1d44ef3577d0472ead4.jpg

    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vazhskiy/14498672/16264/16264_640.jpg

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.

    The politician with one of the most frequent faces of Northern Europe, is Medvedev.

    I know this because I see people who look like him in many different nationalities.

    He could be English or German or Irish or Polish or French or Swedish or even Romanian.

    • Disagree: Thulean Friend
  84. @Xènius
    I’m afraid you have an erroneous idea of what the typical Spaniard looks like. Felipe is handsome and tall, but he’s dark-haired, blue-eyed and not particularly pale, which is quite common in Spain and Italy.

    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe’s look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe’s look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).
     
    King Felipe looks passably Nordic, yes, but it wouldn't be anyone's first guess. When I think of pale Spaniards, I think of La Casa Azul:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ucwiXnPTo

    And even these don't look very Nordic.

    You must understand that Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance. Swedes, for instance, can easily tell Swedish, Finnish and Slavonic blondes apart. We would never mistake someone like Tatyana Babenkova for one of ours, but I'm sure most non-Europeans would:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuhQBy9_kcY
  85. @AaronB

    the main efforts are spent on explaining why the observed reality does not coincide with predictions.
     
    Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities - technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.

    It's a sort of Northern European Protestant cultural narcissism. The Protestant as the prototypical, default human :) Its the same "bewilderment" Northern European Protestants feel at the lack of "creativity" (socially disruptive technology) coming from the intelligent East Asians. How can smart people who share our goals and values - as they surely must - not produce socially disruptive ideas, like we do?

    So naturally, different results can only reflect differences in ability. If the assumption is correct, the conclusion naturally follows.

    It's almost as if Portugese, with an enviable climate and far from the turmoil of the more exciting parts of Europe, actually enjoy life :)

    ‘Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities – technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.’

    Ahem.

    No.

    The whole point of an IQ test is that the score will correlate to your intelligence, regardless of your motivation or your cultural background.

    You can pull a budding genius out of his first grade class and tell him to take this test — without explaining why you want him to or what it’s for.

    He’ll score 160 — even if his primary interest in life at this point is fighting in the schoolyard at recess.

    They’ve also produced culture-free IQ tests that will average the same for groups whether they’re college students in Massachusetts or hunters in Arctic Siberia.

    You are — as usual — completely wrong.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    The "culture-fair" IQ tests weren't actually fair, because to the astonishment of those who administered them, Australian Aboriginals and American Indians got higher scores than white Europeans on them. The "culture-fair" prototypes placed a higher emphasis on rotational and matrice-type visual IQ components, which the aforementioned groups appear to excel at. There is really no such thing as a culturally fair IQ test - suggesting there could be contradicts your own belief in the ethnic heredity of intelligence. Apparently, not all groups inherited the same kinds of intelligence.
    , @AaronB
    That's assuming his priorities are to take the test seriously and give it his best effort. It may not be.

    But I was talking more about the way people who believe in HBD scramble to explain why countries with high IQs underperform, or why countries with similar IQs perform very differently.

    The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life - they are all good little Protestant wannabees - so anomalies in their performance must be explained by environmental factors or innate ability.
  86. Interesting map of European patent density, which picks up above-average performance of the Basque country and Navarre (highest in Spain):

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Brabant and the Catholic areas of Germany do well.
  87. @Colin Wright
    'Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities – technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.'

    Ahem.

    No.

    The whole point of an IQ test is that the score will correlate to your intelligence, regardless of your motivation or your cultural background.

    You can pull a budding genius out of his first grade class and tell him to take this test -- without explaining why you want him to or what it's for.

    He'll score 160 -- even if his primary interest in life at this point is fighting in the schoolyard at recess.

    They've also produced culture-free IQ tests that will average the same for groups whether they're college students in Massachusetts or hunters in Arctic Siberia.

    You are -- as usual -- completely wrong.

    The “culture-fair” IQ tests weren’t actually fair, because to the astonishment of those who administered them, Australian Aboriginals and American Indians got higher scores than white Europeans on them. The “culture-fair” prototypes placed a higher emphasis on rotational and matrice-type visual IQ components, which the aforementioned groups appear to excel at. There is really no such thing as a culturally fair IQ test – suggesting there could be contradicts your own belief in the ethnic heredity of intelligence. Apparently, not all groups inherited the same kinds of intelligence.

  88. @Colin Wright
    'Generally, the assumption behind this IQ stuff is that all humans have the exact same goals and priorities – technology and wealth. HBD may suggest incredible variety in everything else, but all humans have the same goals and priorities.'

    Ahem.

    No.

    The whole point of an IQ test is that the score will correlate to your intelligence, regardless of your motivation or your cultural background.

    You can pull a budding genius out of his first grade class and tell him to take this test -- without explaining why you want him to or what it's for.

    He'll score 160 -- even if his primary interest in life at this point is fighting in the schoolyard at recess.

    They've also produced culture-free IQ tests that will average the same for groups whether they're college students in Massachusetts or hunters in Arctic Siberia.

    You are -- as usual -- completely wrong.

    That’s assuming his priorities are to take the test seriously and give it his best effort. It may not be.

    But I was talking more about the way people who believe in HBD scramble to explain why countries with high IQs underperform, or why countries with similar IQs perform very differently.

    The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life – they are all good little Protestant wannabees – so anomalies in their performance must be explained by environmental factors or innate ability.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '...The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life – they are all good little Protestant wannabees...'

    ? Ashkenazi wannabes, surely. After all, Ashkenazim are the group with the high IQ.
  89. @AaronB
    That's assuming his priorities are to take the test seriously and give it his best effort. It may not be.

    But I was talking more about the way people who believe in HBD scramble to explain why countries with high IQs underperform, or why countries with similar IQs perform very differently.

    The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life - they are all good little Protestant wannabees - so anomalies in their performance must be explained by environmental factors or innate ability.

    ‘…The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life – they are all good little Protestant wannabees…’

    ? Ashkenazi wannabes, surely. After all, Ashkenazim are the group with the high IQ.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Maybe, but Ashkenazi attribute their success largely to education and culture - so they don't assume the rest of the world share their goals and values.

    To be fair, most Protestants don't either - this seems to be the intellectual blind spot of people who think IQ reflects ability, rather than say, motivation or priorities.

    To be fair, that is a necessary starting assumption for them. To produce meaningful comparisons, they must assume that.

    This merely makes IQ as much a philosophy of human nature as a science - which is, of course, true of all sociology and "soft" science.

    I just find it amusing how HBD believers stress human diversity in all domains except here.
  90. @Sam Coulton
    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe's look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).

    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe’s look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).

    King Felipe looks passably Nordic, yes, but it wouldn’t be anyone’s first guess. When I think of pale Spaniards, I think of La Casa Azul:

    And even these don’t look very Nordic.

    You must understand that Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance. Swedes, for instance, can easily tell Swedish, Finnish and Slavonic blondes apart. We would never mistake someone like Tatyana Babenkova for one of ours, but I’m sure most non-Europeans would:

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    I'm an actual anthropologist and the average IQ in Europe is ~94. Besides, someone in this thread already said he looks German. And he is German. So you and your hypothetical Europeans can suck it.
    , @Dmitry
    Spanish have a wide variation in appearance - but in the simpleton's way, I guess it is something like 60% brown and 40% white people.

    And from that 40% white people, there is a smaller proportion of Spanish people who look like any stereotype North European - German, Russians, English, Irish, etc.

    Nationality in Spain is not centred from appearance, but language and culture. For example, Basques, have the same wild mix of physical appearance as other Northern Spanish people, but they identify to be a different nation than Cantabria or La Rioja (but people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people).


    Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance.
     
    Between North and South Europe, there is of course very significant average physical appearance differences.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference - just different distributions or mixes of types.

    In different nationalities of North Europe, you visually notice much more nationality from body language, than physical appearance.

    For example, I work in a country in North West Europe. This summer I was walking in a noisy, crowded street in a crowded city, and saw a group of people about 50 metres further, and my unconscious said "oh Russian there". And then when they are much closer, they are of course speaking Russian.

    Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can't explain consciously what it is that is different.

  91. @Swedish Family

    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe’s look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).
     
    King Felipe looks passably Nordic, yes, but it wouldn't be anyone's first guess. When I think of pale Spaniards, I think of La Casa Azul:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ucwiXnPTo

    And even these don't look very Nordic.

    You must understand that Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance. Swedes, for instance, can easily tell Swedish, Finnish and Slavonic blondes apart. We would never mistake someone like Tatyana Babenkova for one of ours, but I'm sure most non-Europeans would:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuhQBy9_kcY

    I’m an actual anthropologist and the average IQ in Europe is ~94. Besides, someone in this thread already said he looks German. And he is German. So you and your hypothetical Europeans can suck it.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    I’m an actual anthropologist and the average IQ in Europe is ~94. Besides, someone in this thread already said he looks German. And he is German. So you and your hypothetical Europeans can suck it.
     
    Being German is not the same as looking German. For someone who both is and looks German, I give you Marvin Game:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uumE4Ksh6VQ
  92. @melanf

    It seems everyone is smarter than the English
     
    If you read carefully, I wrote something completely different, namely: if you calculate the historical achievements in science/technology/art per capita, the Scots are superior to all except the ancient Greeks.
    I highly doubt that today the IQ of the Scots is any different from the IQ of the English. But in the 18th century, the Scots in this parameter surpassed the English as they had the best schools and the best universities, and a greater percentage of the literate

    18th century, the Scots

    Scotland were also very advanced in city design (in that epoch especially).

  93. @Swedish Family

    There is nothing atypical about King Felipe’s look; less than 50% of Germans have blue eyes or hair lighter than his and almost all of them tan, many of them are even naturally melanated. He is clearly a German (and his great grandparents spoke German, too).
     
    King Felipe looks passably Nordic, yes, but it wouldn't be anyone's first guess. When I think of pale Spaniards, I think of La Casa Azul:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ucwiXnPTo

    And even these don't look very Nordic.

    You must understand that Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance. Swedes, for instance, can easily tell Swedish, Finnish and Slavonic blondes apart. We would never mistake someone like Tatyana Babenkova for one of ours, but I'm sure most non-Europeans would:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuhQBy9_kcY

    Spanish have a wide variation in appearance – but in the simpleton’s way, I guess it is something like 60% brown and 40% white people.

    And from that 40% white people, there is a smaller proportion of Spanish people who look like any stereotype North European – German, Russians, English, Irish, etc.

    Nationality in Spain is not centred from appearance, but language and culture. For example, Basques, have the same wild mix of physical appearance as other Northern Spanish people, but they identify to be a different nation than Cantabria or La Rioja (but people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people).

    Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance.

    Between North and South Europe, there is of course very significant average physical appearance differences.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference – just different distributions or mixes of types.

    In different nationalities of North Europe, you visually notice much more nationality from body language, than physical appearance.

    For example, I work in a country in North West Europe. This summer I was walking in a noisy, crowded street in a crowded city, and saw a group of people about 50 metres further, and my unconscious said “oh Russian there”. And then when they are much closer, they are of course speaking Russian.

    Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can’t explain consciously what it is that is different.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can’t explain consciously what it is that is different.'

    The same thing happens here in the US -- and I mean among generic white people.

    I used to have my own long-distance moving business, so I've been everywhere.

    I used to say that you could put me in a generic highway coffee shop, and I could tell you about where I was: Oregon/Washington, North Carolina, Nebraska/Kansas, wherever. Not for sure -- but I'd have put money on my guesses.

    It wasn't even from accents. Just from the way people dressed and moved.

    , @Mikel

    people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people
     
    Well, as Swedish Family says, we Europeans are capable of easily identifying our neighbors (apparently East Asians can also distinguish themselves from each other while they all look similar to me, it must be a global phenomenon) but of course this ability is lost as we travel away from our part of the continent.

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I'm pretty sure locals can detect that difference and if I spent some time in the region I could probably acquire that ability too.

    You are trying to do the same exercise here and jumping to hasty conclusions from a couple of visits.

    Apparently, in the times when the Basque Country had not been flooded by immigrants from other Spanish regions foreigners were also able to see a difference in physical traits. Both John Adams, the second president of the US, and French writer Victor Hugo visited the Basque Country in the early 19th century and took it for granted that, unlike our neighbors, we were Celts.

    https://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_04.htm

    As it happens, both were wrong. We are not Celts and the main relationship we have with them (or with the current inhabitants of Celtic speaking areas, to be more precise) is that we are largely unadmixed descendants from the peoples who lived in the westernmost part of Europe during the early Iron Age. But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time. Some Spaniards, especially in the North, also have little post-Iron Age admixture so those are the ones that are difficult to distinguish from us.
    , @Swedish Family

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference – just different distributions or mixes of types.
     
    There is truth in this, but Nothernerns can still discern quite a few "sublooks" among broad categories like "blond hair with blue eyes." Marvin Game, in the video I posted before, looks unmistakably German even though blond hair and blue eyes are common all over northern Europe.
  94. @Dmitry
    Spanish have a wide variation in appearance - but in the simpleton's way, I guess it is something like 60% brown and 40% white people.

    And from that 40% white people, there is a smaller proportion of Spanish people who look like any stereotype North European - German, Russians, English, Irish, etc.

    Nationality in Spain is not centred from appearance, but language and culture. For example, Basques, have the same wild mix of physical appearance as other Northern Spanish people, but they identify to be a different nation than Cantabria or La Rioja (but people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people).


    Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance.
     
    Between North and South Europe, there is of course very significant average physical appearance differences.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference - just different distributions or mixes of types.

    In different nationalities of North Europe, you visually notice much more nationality from body language, than physical appearance.

    For example, I work in a country in North West Europe. This summer I was walking in a noisy, crowded street in a crowded city, and saw a group of people about 50 metres further, and my unconscious said "oh Russian there". And then when they are much closer, they are of course speaking Russian.

    Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can't explain consciously what it is that is different.

    ‘Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can’t explain consciously what it is that is different.’

    The same thing happens here in the US — and I mean among generic white people.

    I used to have my own long-distance moving business, so I’ve been everywhere.

    I used to say that you could put me in a generic highway coffee shop, and I could tell you about where I was: Oregon/Washington, North Carolina, Nebraska/Kansas, wherever. Not for sure — but I’d have put money on my guesses.

    It wasn’t even from accents. Just from the way people dressed and moved.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Many youths living between Eureka and Seattle still dress like Kurt Cobain.
  95. @melanf

    Europe natives results:
    Aragon (natives) 509,
    Russia (natives) 488,
    Scotland (natives) 487
     
    Who can believe that? Does such a person exist? The average inhabitant of Russia (with the Caucasus, Tuva and hunters of Siberia) is smarter than the average Scot? A resident of Aragon (Spain's poorest province) is smarter than the average Scot by 20 points?

    Such minor differences aren’t meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don’t think it’s absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian. Scotland has had dysgenic reproduction for at least half a century longer, and has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England) for 2-3 centuries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Scotland... has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England)
     
    This probably is a good observation, in a ceteris paribus way (Scotland should be more intelligent than it is).

    But Aragon 22 points higher than Scotland, probably show this is not tracking the countries in such a useful way.

    Scotland has famous universities which carry students from across the world, while Aragon only has University of Zaragoza, which is not famous.

    Scotland is winning Nobel prizes in science all the time. Scotland has been a land of philosophers and intellectuals, while I don't think Aragon has famous intelligensia (although in other areas of Northern Spain, there was the famous philosopher Miguel De Unamuno).


    the outside world
     
    Scotland is an international leader of education and science. So nerds from outside world, also go to Scotland for education.

    Perhaps most nerds did not remain there after university - but today incomes are also high in Scotland and technology companies invest. So if they did not in the past, they will definitely receive some inflow of foreign nerds in the future.

    , @melanf

    Such minor differences aren’t meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don’t think it’s absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian.
     
    You missed the point. In Russia, 10 percent of the indigenous population are semi-medieval tribes with very low pisa test scores. Another 15% percent of the indigenous Russian population live in isolated semi-medieval villages (such villages in Scotland disappeared 200 years ago) where all the entertainment is drunken fights and hunting.
    Here is for example - you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
    https://www.primorsky.ru/upload/iblock/98a/98aff4336f47786c27c85280f17b702b.jpg

    On this if average performance of tests of Scots (without migrants) equal average performance of tests on Russia, then that means that today's Russians (without wild tribes and "peasants" populating Russia) significantly smarter than Scots (but stupider than Aragonians, or Croats). This is absurd

  96. @gate666
    they have more noble prizes percapita than whites.

    This is true, but they aren’t especially noted for their intelligence within Israel. Of course, there are technical arguments about what a Sephardic Jew actually is, but the estimate that I’m aware of is about an average IQ of 97

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    There is a lot of Sephardic ancestry in Brazil, Mexico, Ecuador, Panama, and the Caribbean.
    , @AaronB
    The Iberian Jewish community was immensely talented, and produced people like Spinoza and Disraeli. Netanyahu I believe is also descended from Iberian Jews, but I'm not sure. Before the expulsion, the business and intellectual class in Spain was largely Jewish.

    Mizrahi Arab Jews are the ones who are generally less talented, but even among them the Iraqi, Syrian, and Persian Jews are quite successful.
    , @Dmitry
    As I understand, "Sephardic" refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Majority of Israelis - which follow a Sephardic religious denomination - are racially the same as Arabs, and they are called "Eastern Jews" (including most Arab Jews, but there are also other kinds of brown Eastern Jews like Mountain Jews).

    That is not to say those people had been necessarily stupid or illiterate. In countries like Algeria and Morocco, the layer of literate and bourgeois Eastern Jews emigrated to France or Canada. While the simple, illiterate Iraqi, Yemeni and Moroccan peasants emigrated in numbers of hundreds of thousands to Israel.

    Israel's population is mainly such brown peasants from third world countries. But this is not an insult or criticism. This population - including now millions of brown peasants - is rapidly embourgeoising. In the 2020s, it will be maybe the first non-oil exporting, majority brown population country to successfully transition to become a developed country. (I think this is also the reason China is interested in Israel).

  97. @Europe Europa
    The Spanish elite certainly look white, but I don't think a lot of them look stereotypically Spanish either. King Felipe looks atypical for a Spanish man in my opinion, someone who looks like him would normally be assumed to be a Northern European tourist or expat in Spain I would imagine.

    obviously the king have french and german ancestry a process of intermarring that date back to the reconquista but only the king used to intermarry with other european kings for political reasons .

  98. @Sam Coulton
    There isn't a "Germanic element" along the Spanish elite; they are German. All members of the House of Bourbon are descended from the Frankish Robertian dynasty, via Robert of Hesbaye.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France#Patrilineal_descent

    It’s interesting how well Western Germanics, particularly Franks, have done getting crowns.

  99. @songbird
    This is true, but they aren't especially noted for their intelligence within Israel. Of course, there are technical arguments about what a Sephardic Jew actually is, but the estimate that I'm aware of is about an average IQ of 97

    There is a lot of Sephardic ancestry in Brazil, Mexico, Ecuador, Panama, and the Caribbean.

  100. @Colin Wright
    'Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can’t explain consciously what it is that is different.'

    The same thing happens here in the US -- and I mean among generic white people.

    I used to have my own long-distance moving business, so I've been everywhere.

    I used to say that you could put me in a generic highway coffee shop, and I could tell you about where I was: Oregon/Washington, North Carolina, Nebraska/Kansas, wherever. Not for sure -- but I'd have put money on my guesses.

    It wasn't even from accents. Just from the way people dressed and moved.

    Many youths living between Eureka and Seattle still dress like Kurt Cobain.

  101. @for-the-record
    Interesting map of European patent density, which picks up above-average performance of the Basque country and Navarre (highest in Spain):

    https://i.imgur.com/i8aTu6A.jpg

    Brabant and the Catholic areas of Germany do well.

  102. @songbird
    This is true, but they aren't especially noted for their intelligence within Israel. Of course, there are technical arguments about what a Sephardic Jew actually is, but the estimate that I'm aware of is about an average IQ of 97

    The Iberian Jewish community was immensely talented, and produced people like Spinoza and Disraeli. Netanyahu I believe is also descended from Iberian Jews, but I’m not sure. Before the expulsion, the business and intellectual class in Spain was largely Jewish.

    Mizrahi Arab Jews are the ones who are generally less talented, but even among them the Iraqi, Syrian, and Persian Jews are quite successful.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Disraeli seems to have been of mixed ancestry, including Ashkenazi and Roman Jews. Bibi has touted that he has some Sephardic roots without, I believe, ever giving a percentage - one might accuse him of pandering for Sephardic votes.

    Eminent Ashkenazi Richard Feynman made fun of Spinoza, and I am of the opinion that he was been over-promoted.
  103. @Jackjack
    To get a better picture,

    Europe natives results:

    https://i.imgur.com/SdBRFI3.png

    Spain and Europe merged:

    https://i.imgur.com/FY1ECSy.jpg

    Spain regions highlighted in red:

    https://i.imgur.com/gQjXJmH.png

    I’m surprised that Valencia did relatively poorly.

  104. @Colin Wright
    '...The underlying assumption is that all humans everywhere in the world are trying their best to do the exact same things in life – they are all good little Protestant wannabees...'

    ? Ashkenazi wannabes, surely. After all, Ashkenazim are the group with the high IQ.

    Maybe, but Ashkenazi attribute their success largely to education and culture – so they don’t assume the rest of the world share their goals and values.

    To be fair, most Protestants don’t either – this seems to be the intellectual blind spot of people who think IQ reflects ability, rather than say, motivation or priorities.

    To be fair, that is a necessary starting assumption for them. To produce meaningful comparisons, they must assume that.

    This merely makes IQ as much a philosophy of human nature as a science – which is, of course, true of all sociology and “soft” science.

    I just find it amusing how HBD believers stress human diversity in all domains except here.

    • Replies: @anat
    the only difference between sephardic jews and ashkenazi ones is a plus of 20-30% polish paternal ancestry(r1a) probably they intermarried with the local nobles while sephardics are nearly 100% jewish paternally but nearly 100% europeans maternally
  105. @songbird
    This is true, but they aren't especially noted for their intelligence within Israel. Of course, there are technical arguments about what a Sephardic Jew actually is, but the estimate that I'm aware of is about an average IQ of 97

    As I understand, “Sephardic” refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Majority of Israelis – which follow a Sephardic religious denomination – are racially the same as Arabs, and they are called “Eastern Jews” (including most Arab Jews, but there are also other kinds of brown Eastern Jews like Mountain Jews).

    That is not to say those people had been necessarily stupid or illiterate. In countries like Algeria and Morocco, the layer of literate and bourgeois Eastern Jews emigrated to France or Canada. While the simple, illiterate Iraqi, Yemeni and Moroccan peasants emigrated in numbers of hundreds of thousands to Israel.

    Israel’s population is mainly such brown peasants from third world countries. But this is not an insult or criticism. This population – including now millions of brown peasants – is rapidly embourgeoising. In the 2020s, it will be maybe the first non-oil exporting, majority brown population country to successfully transition to become a developed country. (I think this is also the reason China is interested in Israel).

    • Replies: @songbird
    What would you say is the threshold that Israel needs to cross to become a developed country? I think of them like a developed country right now, but maybe per capita is not a good marker. But they are ahead of Portugal, I think.

    I don't know if you have ever seen them, but there are some really bizarre commercials that one sometimes sees in the US. I think they are meant to appeal to Evangelicals to send money to feed old, hungry Israeli Jews. I never take any charity on TV too seriously, but this one seems especially questionable to me. And I don't understand it - surely they have something like food stamps over there? Maybe, it is meant to cover specialty religious foods, but it is really strange, even if so.
    , @for-the-record
    As I understand, “Sephardic” refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Originally at least it was a purely a geographic (and hence to that extent "racial" or "ethnic") term:

    SEPHARDIM (called also Spagnioli, Spaniols, or, more rarely, Franconians):

    By: Isidore Singer, Meyer Kayserling


    Descendants of the Jews who were expelled from Spain and Portugal and who settled in southern France, Italy, North Africa, Turkey, Asia Minor, Holland, England, North and South America, Germany, Denmark, Austria, and Hungary. Among these settlers were many who were the descendants, or heads, of wealthy families and who, as Maranos, had occupied prominent positions in the countries they had left. Some had been state officials, others had held positions of dignity within the Church; many had been the heads of large banking-houses and mercantile establishments, and some were physicians or scholars who had officiated as teachers in high schools. The many sufferings which they had endured for the sake of their faith had made them more than usually self-conscious; they considered themselves a superior class, the nobility of Jewry, and for a long time their coreligionists, on whom they looked down, regarded them as such. . .

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13430-sephardim
     
    In fact, "Sefardi" (Hebrew ṣĕfārad) is the toponym that (Jewish) tradition identifies with the Iberian peninsula.

    On the other hand, it does seem that the term has also come to be more broadly used to refer to (non-Sephardic) Jews who follow the Sephardic rite (e.g. Mizrahi Jews).
  106. @Anatoly Karlin
    Such minor differences aren't meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don't think it's absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian. Scotland has had dysgenic reproduction for at least half a century longer, and has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England) for 2-3 centuries.

    Scotland… has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England)

    This probably is a good observation, in a ceteris paribus way (Scotland should be more intelligent than it is).

    But Aragon 22 points higher than Scotland, probably show this is not tracking the countries in such a useful way.

    Scotland has famous universities which carry students from across the world, while Aragon only has University of Zaragoza, which is not famous.

    Scotland is winning Nobel prizes in science all the time. Scotland has been a land of philosophers and intellectuals, while I don’t think Aragon has famous intelligensia (although in other areas of Northern Spain, there was the famous philosopher Miguel De Unamuno).

    the outside world

    Scotland is an international leader of education and science. So nerds from outside world, also go to Scotland for education.

    Perhaps most nerds did not remain there after university – but today incomes are also high in Scotland and technology companies invest. So if they did not in the past, they will definitely receive some inflow of foreign nerds in the future.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    Over the years there has been a very significant dumbing down of education in Scotland. I attended elementary school for a year in Scotland in 1990 and as a 4th grader had no problems solving 8th grade papers. The year was an academic picnic.

    This was the experience of all children of senior Indian bureaucrats who were sent to Glasgow for training back then.

    Given the fact that Russian education system is far more rigorous it is actually surprising that Russia only gets one PISA point more than Scotland.
  107. @AaronB
    Maybe, but Ashkenazi attribute their success largely to education and culture - so they don't assume the rest of the world share their goals and values.

    To be fair, most Protestants don't either - this seems to be the intellectual blind spot of people who think IQ reflects ability, rather than say, motivation or priorities.

    To be fair, that is a necessary starting assumption for them. To produce meaningful comparisons, they must assume that.

    This merely makes IQ as much a philosophy of human nature as a science - which is, of course, true of all sociology and "soft" science.

    I just find it amusing how HBD believers stress human diversity in all domains except here.

    the only difference between sephardic jews and ashkenazi ones is a plus of 20-30% polish paternal ancestry(r1a) probably they intermarried with the local nobles while sephardics are nearly 100% jewish paternally but nearly 100% europeans maternally

    • Agree: AaronB
  108. @Sam Coulton
    You must be another crack smoker; we seem to attract a lot of them here. The Tokugawa period was marked by constant civil war, interpersonal homicide, sexual assault, piracy, and diarrhea, as witnessed not just by the Japanese but by European explorers who made it there.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/29766810?seq=1

    Constant civil wars in Edo period Japan? I’m curious which European explorers you are basing this off of, as only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki (Dejima) at the time. Only a few Europeans were allowed to travel around Edo Japan, such as Engelbert Kaempfer, Philipp Franz von Siebold, Carl Peter Thunberg, etc.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    But that is about crime in Japan from 1950-1988, not Edo period. Also, the numbers in this source doesn’t really match up with your claim – “even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s.

    View post on imgur.com

    • Replies: @utu
    Don't waste time on this troll. He makes things up as he goes. He is a more crude version of AaronB.
    , @Sam Coulton
    Congratulations on reading the study; however I'm afraid you're wrong when you say that the USA's murder rate was higher than Japan's. The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970. There's no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan (having lost a substantial share of its male population as well) to the United States with direct figures, it has to be adjusted for urbanization and WW2.

    Note that Japan has a significantly higher murder rate than Norway and Ireland, countries with a comparable rate of urbanization to Japan. Japanese people used to be thugs.

    Also if you're not aware of all the violence that took place under the Tokugawa shogunate, I don't know what to tell you. You sound like you got your info from some microdick isolationaist troll with mommy issues (probably utu). It was not at all a peaceful period (unless you consider getting chopped in half with a samurai sword to be a form of "peace").

    , @Sam Coulton
    Part of the reason so many people appear to be deluded about the Edo era is that they don't realize how many activities were being practiced in Japan that would be considered highly criminal in the modern West, but were perfectly acceptable in japan.

    One example would be Yobai, a form of hot prowl burglary in which a man enters the bedroom of a sleeping woman and asks for her "consent" to sex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yobai

    In no Western country would this be considered a legal act of visitation and consensual sex, even in the 1800s.

  109. @AaronB
    The Iberian Jewish community was immensely talented, and produced people like Spinoza and Disraeli. Netanyahu I believe is also descended from Iberian Jews, but I'm not sure. Before the expulsion, the business and intellectual class in Spain was largely Jewish.

    Mizrahi Arab Jews are the ones who are generally less talented, but even among them the Iraqi, Syrian, and Persian Jews are quite successful.

    Disraeli seems to have been of mixed ancestry, including Ashkenazi and Roman Jews. Bibi has touted that he has some Sephardic roots without, I believe, ever giving a percentage – one might accuse him of pandering for Sephardic votes.

    Eminent Ashkenazi Richard Feynman made fun of Spinoza, and I am of the opinion that he was been over-promoted.

  110. @Dmitry
    In Northern Spain, it is also full of South Americans immigrants.

    I think South Americans have distributed evenly across Spain actually. So in Basque country, you can visit areas which are full of Colombian and Brazilian shops.

    There are also very large numbers of Arabs in the streets there (you notice only when people in streets are speaking Arabic though, because the visual difference is not that large from a lot of Spanish people).

    There are also very large numbers of Arabs in the streets there (you notice only when people in streets are speaking Arabic though, because the visual difference is not that large from a lot of Spanish people).

    There are lots of North Africans living in Valencia province and they are easily recognizable in the street (men and women). North African features a quite different from Spanish/Latin. On the other hand, Spaniards can be confused with Italians and some French.

    There are also plenty of South Americans and they are immediately recognizable since they are mostly Amerindians (apart from Argentineans who look 100% Spanish).

  111. @Dmitry
    As I understand, "Sephardic" refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Majority of Israelis - which follow a Sephardic religious denomination - are racially the same as Arabs, and they are called "Eastern Jews" (including most Arab Jews, but there are also other kinds of brown Eastern Jews like Mountain Jews).

    That is not to say those people had been necessarily stupid or illiterate. In countries like Algeria and Morocco, the layer of literate and bourgeois Eastern Jews emigrated to France or Canada. While the simple, illiterate Iraqi, Yemeni and Moroccan peasants emigrated in numbers of hundreds of thousands to Israel.

    Israel's population is mainly such brown peasants from third world countries. But this is not an insult or criticism. This population - including now millions of brown peasants - is rapidly embourgeoising. In the 2020s, it will be maybe the first non-oil exporting, majority brown population country to successfully transition to become a developed country. (I think this is also the reason China is interested in Israel).

    What would you say is the threshold that Israel needs to cross to become a developed country? I think of them like a developed country right now, but maybe per capita is not a good marker. But they are ahead of Portugal, I think.

    I don’t know if you have ever seen them, but there are some really bizarre commercials that one sometimes sees in the US. I think they are meant to appeal to Evangelicals to send money to feed old, hungry Israeli Jews. I never take any charity on TV too seriously, but this one seems especially questionable to me. And I don’t understand it – surely they have something like food stamps over there? Maybe, it is meant to cover specialty religious foods, but it is really strange, even if so.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Like most things about Israel, it's confusing to answer, because a lot of Israeli cities were constructed as slums, or refugee camps in the 1950-s (when an inflow Arab Jews doubled the country's population in a few years).

    For example, they used crushed sea shells, to use as aggregate for the cement of much of the slum buildings in 1950-1960 (a lot of Israel's cities will collapse in an earthquake). So when I visit Israel, I have an impression of being in a third world urban environment. On the other hand, the population living in those buildings, have rising salaries, high life expectancy and access to good healthcare. In addition, Israeli population are mainly brown, Middle Eastern people i.e. people who we associate in our mind as a third world population.

    A curious thing is nowadays rich cities of Israel (which were constructed when Israel was very poor) can look more like the third world country, than poor cities (which were constructed later when Israel was richer). For example, Ashdod feels very developed to me when I visited it (although in a kind of Soviet urban planning) - but statistically Ashdod is one of the poorest cities in Israel. The impression of it being more developed, is because it was constructed in 1980s, when Israel had more money than in the 1950s.

    Another confusing thing is a Detroit situation of Tel Aviv. Until quite recently, Tel Aviv had collapsed like Detroit. But in recent years, it started to be fashionable and to gentrify. So there is now a funny mix of third world people and elite bourgeois people in the same city. In Jaffa today, it is even the most proletarian Arabs living in the same streets as hipster Jews.

    I think of them like a developed country right now,

     

    Sometime in 2020s, it will feel like a developed country. But not like Western Europe developed.

    This like Soviet, or Chinese anthill, kind of development.

    E.g. What was some empty beaches 5 years, in small little beach town of Netanya, suddenly becomes a stone jungle some months later.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M_Vg1H6RU

    Or in Petach Tikva - I guess probably all anthills in the video were constructed in the last 1-2 years.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsknI_z-ovc

    The worst place is Bat Yam, which is where I stayed in my vacation to Israel last year. It's a third world slum (constructed for refugees in the 1950-1960). But it is close to where they are constructing a lot of new office buildings, so rent in such a third world slum is not even so cheap. (if you could wait a few decades, it would even be a good investment for that reason).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPutWx50Ow

    some really bizarre commercials that one sometimes sees in the US. I think they are meant to appeal to Evangelicals
     
    I read in some forum about how American Christians operate special offices in Israeli cities, where they give free pots, multivarkas and childrens' shoes for Ukrainian and Ethiopian immigrants. People were saying they don't check if you are Ukrainian.

    If you know the jokes about homo sovieticus - stereotypical immigrant in Israel can be like that stereotype, and might have no embarrassment taking the free pots and free shoes, even if they leave Israel a few months later.

    In the same forums, people are talking about tricks for things like receiving maternity capital (from the Russian government) while they live in Israel, how to avoid the army, how to maximize free housing, etc. A lot of other discussions are complaining about how Ethiopian immigrants receive more free things than they can.
  112. @Oliver
    Constant civil wars in Edo period Japan? I'm curious which European explorers you are basing this off of, as only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki (Dejima) at the time. Only a few Europeans were allowed to travel around Edo Japan, such as Engelbert Kaempfer, Philipp Franz von Siebold, Carl Peter Thunberg, etc.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    But that is about crime in Japan from 1950-1988, not Edo period. Also, the numbers in this source doesn't really match up with your claim - "even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s."

    https://imgur.com/XU2S7sS

    Don’t waste time on this troll. He makes things up as he goes. He is a more crude version of AaronB.

    • Troll: Sam Coulton
  113. @Dmitry
    As I understand, "Sephardic" refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Majority of Israelis - which follow a Sephardic religious denomination - are racially the same as Arabs, and they are called "Eastern Jews" (including most Arab Jews, but there are also other kinds of brown Eastern Jews like Mountain Jews).

    That is not to say those people had been necessarily stupid or illiterate. In countries like Algeria and Morocco, the layer of literate and bourgeois Eastern Jews emigrated to France or Canada. While the simple, illiterate Iraqi, Yemeni and Moroccan peasants emigrated in numbers of hundreds of thousands to Israel.

    Israel's population is mainly such brown peasants from third world countries. But this is not an insult or criticism. This population - including now millions of brown peasants - is rapidly embourgeoising. In the 2020s, it will be maybe the first non-oil exporting, majority brown population country to successfully transition to become a developed country. (I think this is also the reason China is interested in Israel).

    As I understand, “Sephardic” refers to a religious denomination of Jews (it is a type of religious law), rather than a racial category.

    Originally at least it was a purely a geographic (and hence to that extent “racial” or “ethnic”) term:

    SEPHARDIM (called also Spagnioli, Spaniols, or, more rarely, Franconians):

    By: Isidore Singer, Meyer Kayserling

    Descendants of the Jews who were expelled from Spain and Portugal and who settled in southern France, Italy, North Africa, Turkey, Asia Minor, Holland, England, North and South America, Germany, Denmark, Austria, and Hungary. Among these settlers were many who were the descendants, or heads, of wealthy families and who, as Maranos, had occupied prominent positions in the countries they had left. Some had been state officials, others had held positions of dignity within the Church; many had been the heads of large banking-houses and mercantile establishments, and some were physicians or scholars who had officiated as teachers in high schools. The many sufferings which they had endured for the sake of their faith had made them more than usually self-conscious; they considered themselves a superior class, the nobility of Jewry, and for a long time their coreligionists, on whom they looked down, regarded them as such. . .

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13430-sephardim

    In fact, “Sefardi” (Hebrew ṣĕfārad) is the toponym that (Jewish) tradition identifies with the Iberian peninsula.

    On the other hand, it does seem that the term has also come to be more broadly used to refer to (non-Sephardic) Jews who follow the Sephardic rite (e.g. Mizrahi Jews).

  114. @Oliver
    Constant civil wars in Edo period Japan? I'm curious which European explorers you are basing this off of, as only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki (Dejima) at the time. Only a few Europeans were allowed to travel around Edo Japan, such as Engelbert Kaempfer, Philipp Franz von Siebold, Carl Peter Thunberg, etc.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    But that is about crime in Japan from 1950-1988, not Edo period. Also, the numbers in this source doesn't really match up with your claim - "even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s."

    https://imgur.com/XU2S7sS

    Congratulations on reading the study; however I’m afraid you’re wrong when you say that the USA’s murder rate was higher than Japan’s. The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970. There’s no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan (having lost a substantial share of its male population as well) to the United States with direct figures, it has to be adjusted for urbanization and WW2.

    Note that Japan has a significantly higher murder rate than Norway and Ireland, countries with a comparable rate of urbanization to Japan. Japanese people used to be thugs.

    Also if you’re not aware of all the violence that took place under the Tokugawa shogunate, I don’t know what to tell you. You sound like you got your info from some microdick isolationaist troll with mommy issues (probably utu). It was not at all a peaceful period (unless you consider getting chopped in half with a samurai sword to be a form of “peace”).

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    This:

    There’s no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan
     
    Should have read:

    There’s no sense in comparing a largely *rural Japan
     
    50% of the United States population was urbanized by 1920, a rate Japan did not reach until 1953 (Ouyang & Lin, 2016).
    , @EldnahYm

    The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970
     
    More like the United States was a much more heavily urbanized country that Japan circa 1950-1960. During the 1960s the difference narrowed.

    Urbanization rate Japan
    1960: 63.3%
    1965: 67.9%
    1970: 72.1%

    Urbanization rate United States
    1960: 69.9%
    1965: 71.9%
    1970: 73.6%

    We're supposed to believe having 4-6% more of the population in urban areas will double a country's homicide rate.

    Meanwhile today 90% urban Japan has a homicide rate nearly 20x lower than the 80% U.S.

  115. @Oliver
    Constant civil wars in Edo period Japan? I'm curious which European explorers you are basing this off of, as only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki (Dejima) at the time. Only a few Europeans were allowed to travel around Edo Japan, such as Engelbert Kaempfer, Philipp Franz von Siebold, Carl Peter Thunberg, etc.

    Perhaps you dummies might want to read this article.

    But that is about crime in Japan from 1950-1988, not Edo period. Also, the numbers in this source doesn't really match up with your claim - "even up to the 1970s their homicide rate exceeded the USA’s."

    https://imgur.com/XU2S7sS

    Part of the reason so many people appear to be deluded about the Edo era is that they don’t realize how many activities were being practiced in Japan that would be considered highly criminal in the modern West, but were perfectly acceptable in japan.

    One example would be Yobai, a form of hot prowl burglary in which a man enters the bedroom of a sleeping woman and asks for her “consent” to sex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yobai

    In no Western country would this be considered a legal act of visitation and consensual sex, even in the 1800s.

  116. @Dmitry
    Spanish have a wide variation in appearance - but in the simpleton's way, I guess it is something like 60% brown and 40% white people.

    And from that 40% white people, there is a smaller proportion of Spanish people who look like any stereotype North European - German, Russians, English, Irish, etc.

    Nationality in Spain is not centred from appearance, but language and culture. For example, Basques, have the same wild mix of physical appearance as other Northern Spanish people, but they identify to be a different nation than Cantabria or La Rioja (but people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people).


    Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance.
     
    Between North and South Europe, there is of course very significant average physical appearance differences.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference - just different distributions or mixes of types.

    In different nationalities of North Europe, you visually notice much more nationality from body language, than physical appearance.

    For example, I work in a country in North West Europe. This summer I was walking in a noisy, crowded street in a crowded city, and saw a group of people about 50 metres further, and my unconscious said "oh Russian there". And then when they are much closer, they are of course speaking Russian.

    Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can't explain consciously what it is that is different.

    people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people

    Well, as Swedish Family says, we Europeans are capable of easily identifying our neighbors (apparently East Asians can also distinguish themselves from each other while they all look similar to me, it must be a global phenomenon) but of course this ability is lost as we travel away from our part of the continent.

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I’m pretty sure locals can detect that difference and if I spent some time in the region I could probably acquire that ability too.

    You are trying to do the same exercise here and jumping to hasty conclusions from a couple of visits.

    Apparently, in the times when the Basque Country had not been flooded by immigrants from other Spanish regions foreigners were also able to see a difference in physical traits. Both John Adams, the second president of the US, and French writer Victor Hugo visited the Basque Country in the early 19th century and took it for granted that, unlike our neighbors, we were Celts.

    https://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_04.htm

    As it happens, both were wrong. We are not Celts and the main relationship we have with them (or with the current inhabitants of Celtic speaking areas, to be more precise) is that we are largely unadmixed descendants from the peoples who lived in the westernmost part of Europe during the early Iron Age. But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time. Some Spaniards, especially in the North, also have little post-Iron Age admixture so those are the ones that are difficult to distinguish from us.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Basques are not going to be so genetically very greatly different from other Spanish populations. At least if the different studies, are giving different results, and some say they are genetically not distinct - it cannot be such a large genetic difference.

    I know some studies say Basques are genetically different, but what about ones which say they are the same? e.g.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20157828


    But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time.
     
    But the clue must be a cultural one? Because people in this area of Spain do not look similar between each other (some are dark, some are blonde - but there is the mix all around the area).

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?

    We travelled on this train all the way up, and got off in both cities. And even the urban design is not different. (Miranda is less beautiful, and it doesn't have signs written in euskera - but you really think the people look different than a few kilometres on the same train?)

    , @melanf

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I’m pretty sure locals can detect that difference
     
    It is certain that the locals will not be able to determine such differences. Recognition of nationality (for "racially" close nationalities) is mostly done by facial expressions/gestures/clothes/hair.... It's just impossible to tell by the face who it is: Russian or German or Swede or Finn. When I offer to determine the nationality by the photo the result is close to random (despite the fact that the definition is carried out by the very people who claimed that 100% determine the nationality of the form of the human physiognomy)
  117. @Sam Coulton
    Congratulations on reading the study; however I'm afraid you're wrong when you say that the USA's murder rate was higher than Japan's. The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970. There's no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan (having lost a substantial share of its male population as well) to the United States with direct figures, it has to be adjusted for urbanization and WW2.

    Note that Japan has a significantly higher murder rate than Norway and Ireland, countries with a comparable rate of urbanization to Japan. Japanese people used to be thugs.

    Also if you're not aware of all the violence that took place under the Tokugawa shogunate, I don't know what to tell you. You sound like you got your info from some microdick isolationaist troll with mommy issues (probably utu). It was not at all a peaceful period (unless you consider getting chopped in half with a samurai sword to be a form of "peace").

    This:

    There’s no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan

    Should have read:

    There’s no sense in comparing a largely *rural Japan

    50% of the United States population was urbanized by 1920, a rate Japan did not reach until 1953 (Ouyang & Lin, 2016).

  118. @songbird
    What would you say is the threshold that Israel needs to cross to become a developed country? I think of them like a developed country right now, but maybe per capita is not a good marker. But they are ahead of Portugal, I think.

    I don't know if you have ever seen them, but there are some really bizarre commercials that one sometimes sees in the US. I think they are meant to appeal to Evangelicals to send money to feed old, hungry Israeli Jews. I never take any charity on TV too seriously, but this one seems especially questionable to me. And I don't understand it - surely they have something like food stamps over there? Maybe, it is meant to cover specialty religious foods, but it is really strange, even if so.

    Like most things about Israel, it’s confusing to answer, because a lot of Israeli cities were constructed as slums, or refugee camps in the 1950-s (when an inflow Arab Jews doubled the country’s population in a few years).

    For example, they used crushed sea shells, to use as aggregate for the cement of much of the slum buildings in 1950-1960 (a lot of Israel’s cities will collapse in an earthquake). So when I visit Israel, I have an impression of being in a third world urban environment. On the other hand, the population living in those buildings, have rising salaries, high life expectancy and access to good healthcare. In addition, Israeli population are mainly brown, Middle Eastern people i.e. people who we associate in our mind as a third world population.

    A curious thing is nowadays rich cities of Israel (which were constructed when Israel was very poor) can look more like the third world country, than poor cities (which were constructed later when Israel was richer). For example, Ashdod feels very developed to me when I visited it (although in a kind of Soviet urban planning) – but statistically Ashdod is one of the poorest cities in Israel. The impression of it being more developed, is because it was constructed in 1980s, when Israel had more money than in the 1950s.

    Another confusing thing is a Detroit situation of Tel Aviv. Until quite recently, Tel Aviv had collapsed like Detroit. But in recent years, it started to be fashionable and to gentrify. So there is now a funny mix of third world people and elite bourgeois people in the same city. In Jaffa today, it is even the most proletarian Arabs living in the same streets as hipster Jews.

    I think of them like a developed country right now,

    Sometime in 2020s, it will feel like a developed country. But not like Western Europe developed.

    This like Soviet, or Chinese anthill, kind of development.

    E.g. What was some empty beaches 5 years, in small little beach town of Netanya, suddenly becomes a stone jungle some months later.

    Or in Petach Tikva – I guess probably all anthills in the video were constructed in the last 1-2 years.

    The worst place is Bat Yam, which is where I stayed in my vacation to Israel last year. It’s a third world slum (constructed for refugees in the 1950-1960). But it is close to where they are constructing a lot of new office buildings, so rent in such a third world slum is not even so cheap. (if you could wait a few decades, it would even be a good investment for that reason).

    some really bizarre commercials that one sometimes sees in the US. I think they are meant to appeal to Evangelicals

    I read in some forum about how American Christians operate special offices in Israeli cities, where they give free pots, multivarkas and childrens’ shoes for Ukrainian and Ethiopian immigrants. People were saying they don’t check if you are Ukrainian.

    If you know the jokes about homo sovieticus – stereotypical immigrant in Israel can be like that stereotype, and might have no embarrassment taking the free pots and free shoes, even if they leave Israel a few months later.

    In the same forums, people are talking about tricks for things like receiving maternity capital (from the Russian government) while they live in Israel, how to avoid the army, how to maximize free housing, etc. A lot of other discussions are complaining about how Ethiopian immigrants receive more free things than they can.

  119. @Mikel

    people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people
     
    Well, as Swedish Family says, we Europeans are capable of easily identifying our neighbors (apparently East Asians can also distinguish themselves from each other while they all look similar to me, it must be a global phenomenon) but of course this ability is lost as we travel away from our part of the continent.

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I'm pretty sure locals can detect that difference and if I spent some time in the region I could probably acquire that ability too.

    You are trying to do the same exercise here and jumping to hasty conclusions from a couple of visits.

    Apparently, in the times when the Basque Country had not been flooded by immigrants from other Spanish regions foreigners were also able to see a difference in physical traits. Both John Adams, the second president of the US, and French writer Victor Hugo visited the Basque Country in the early 19th century and took it for granted that, unlike our neighbors, we were Celts.

    https://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_04.htm

    As it happens, both were wrong. We are not Celts and the main relationship we have with them (or with the current inhabitants of Celtic speaking areas, to be more precise) is that we are largely unadmixed descendants from the peoples who lived in the westernmost part of Europe during the early Iron Age. But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time. Some Spaniards, especially in the North, also have little post-Iron Age admixture so those are the ones that are difficult to distinguish from us.

    Basques are not going to be so genetically very greatly different from other Spanish populations. At least if the different studies, are giving different results, and some say they are genetically not distinct – it cannot be such a large genetic difference.

    I know some studies say Basques are genetically different, but what about ones which say they are the same? e.g.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20157828

    But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time.

    But the clue must be a cultural one? Because people in this area of Spain do not look similar between each other (some are dark, some are blonde – but there is the mix all around the area).

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?

    We travelled on this train all the way up, and got off in both cities. And even the urban design is not different. (Miranda is less beautiful, and it doesn’t have signs written in euskera – but you really think the people look different than a few kilometres on the same train?)

    • Replies: @Mikel

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?
     
    I explained this to you a couple of months ago when you asked me but it looks like you refuse to understand or believe the answer.

    What is the difference when you cross the border from one East London borough to the neighboring one? Surely all native Britons must be a mixture of South Asians, West Indians and Europeans...

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn't make sense for the issue at hand. The demographic history of that city is not difficult to research, there is nothing controversial about it at all. There is a reason why we in Gipuzkoa used to call Vitorians "Manolos", even though a good half of the population in my small industrial hometown was also from elsewhere in Spain https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitoria#Demograf%C3%ADa

    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I'm not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can't get this point across to you.

    Regarding different genetic studies, I'm OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins. But what I said above is definitely the consensus opinion at the moment. Ancestry.com geneticists believe that they can distinguish a distinct Basque group (they can't distinguish Russians from Ukrainians or Belarussians though)*

    Adult Basques don't usually have blond hair, by the way. If that is the trait you were paying attention to, it was a wrong clue.

    * On the other hand, ancestry.com does include Western Ukrainians in a separate cluster that includes parts of the Balkans: Northwestern Romania and Northern Serbia, hope AP is not reading this.
  120. @Sam Coulton
    Congratulations on reading the study; however I'm afraid you're wrong when you say that the USA's murder rate was higher than Japan's. The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970. There's no sense in comparing a largely urban Japan (having lost a substantial share of its male population as well) to the United States with direct figures, it has to be adjusted for urbanization and WW2.

    Note that Japan has a significantly higher murder rate than Norway and Ireland, countries with a comparable rate of urbanization to Japan. Japanese people used to be thugs.

    Also if you're not aware of all the violence that took place under the Tokugawa shogunate, I don't know what to tell you. You sound like you got your info from some microdick isolationaist troll with mommy issues (probably utu). It was not at all a peaceful period (unless you consider getting chopped in half with a samurai sword to be a form of "peace").

    The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970

    More like the United States was a much more heavily urbanized country that Japan circa 1950-1960. During the 1960s the difference narrowed.

    Urbanization rate Japan
    1960: 63.3%
    1965: 67.9%
    1970: 72.1%

    Urbanization rate United States
    1960: 69.9%
    1965: 71.9%
    1970: 73.6%

    We’re supposed to believe having 4-6% more of the population in urban areas will double a country’s homicide rate.

    Meanwhile today 90% urban Japan has a homicide rate nearly 20x lower than the 80% U.S.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    You're also not taking in to account the staggering loss of Japanese males in urban areas in WW2. Adjusting for urbanization and sex ratio, Japan was the more violent country.

    The data clearly shows there is no relationship between IQ and violence. Perhaps I should have cited Luxembourg as a better example; since it was both urban and has one of the highest IQ averages in Europe - and in 1960 a higher murder rate than Compton, California does today.

  121. @EldnahYm

    The United States was a much more heavily urbanized country than Japan circa 1950-1970
     
    More like the United States was a much more heavily urbanized country that Japan circa 1950-1960. During the 1960s the difference narrowed.

    Urbanization rate Japan
    1960: 63.3%
    1965: 67.9%
    1970: 72.1%

    Urbanization rate United States
    1960: 69.9%
    1965: 71.9%
    1970: 73.6%

    We're supposed to believe having 4-6% more of the population in urban areas will double a country's homicide rate.

    Meanwhile today 90% urban Japan has a homicide rate nearly 20x lower than the 80% U.S.

    You’re also not taking in to account the staggering loss of Japanese males in urban areas in WW2. Adjusting for urbanization and sex ratio, Japan was the more violent country.

    The data clearly shows there is no relationship between IQ and violence. Perhaps I should have cited Luxembourg as a better example; since it was both urban and has one of the highest IQ averages in Europe – and in 1960 a higher murder rate than Compton, California does today.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I don't think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn't align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.

    Intelligence has little relationship to violence. Violence rises together with general ambition and creative ferment.

    , @EldnahYm
    Japan sex ratio
    1960: 96.5
    1965: 96.4
    1970: 96.4

    USA sex ratio
    1960: 98.2
    1965: 97.81
    1970: 97.05

    Not a large difference. Also, Japan had a higher sex ratio in cities relative to rural areas in the 1960s. Here's the numbers for 1960 according to Chester Hunter from Female Occupational Roles and Urban Sex Ratios in the United States, Japan, and the Philippines:

    Urban-rural sex ratios
    USA urban 94
    USA rural 104
    Japan urban 97.7
    Japan rural 95.4
  122. @Sam Coulton
    You're also not taking in to account the staggering loss of Japanese males in urban areas in WW2. Adjusting for urbanization and sex ratio, Japan was the more violent country.

    The data clearly shows there is no relationship between IQ and violence. Perhaps I should have cited Luxembourg as a better example; since it was both urban and has one of the highest IQ averages in Europe - and in 1960 a higher murder rate than Compton, California does today.

    I don’t think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn’t align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.

    Intelligence has little relationship to violence. Violence rises together with general ambition and creative ferment.

    • Agree: Sam Coulton
    • Replies: @EldnahYm

    I don’t think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn’t align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.
     
    All you have shown is that the correlation between IQ and violence changes over time.

    Generalizing from television or novels is probably not the best empirical approach. You're quickly becoming the Malcolm Gladwell of Unz posters.
  123. japanese or european were ruthless conquerors when was needed but once society changed they showed a capacity to self control their instincs that is probably very related with iq

    luxenburg is the most racially diverse region in europe with stagering numbers of muslims and africans .

    why i losing my time here ….

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    37% of Luxembourg's population today is foreign born, but the vast majority of them are European people, who could not possibly have driven the murder rate to Compton levels in 1960. In fact, the immigrant share of the population was much lower back then, and today Luxembourg as a murder rate of less than 1 per 100,000.


    It makes no sense, evolutionarily speaking, for more intelligent people to be less violent. Are predators in the wild less intelligent than prey animals? No.

  124. @anat
    japanese or european were ruthless conquerors when was needed but once society changed they showed a capacity to self control their instincs that is probably very related with iq

    luxenburg is the most racially diverse region in europe with stagering numbers of muslims and africans .


    why i losing my time here ....

    37% of Luxembourg’s population today is foreign born, but the vast majority of them are European people, who could not possibly have driven the murder rate to Compton levels in 1960. In fact, the immigrant share of the population was much lower back then, and today Luxembourg as a murder rate of less than 1 per 100,000.

    It makes no sense, evolutionarily speaking, for more intelligent people to be less violent. Are predators in the wild less intelligent than prey animals? No.

    • Replies: @anat
    a 10% of north africans in any european country will trasform their jails population automatically in 90% north africans if you add that the europeans came from the balcans romania and portugal you have the perfect recipe for disaster.


    the capacity to adapt , self control your instincts and wage wars when is needed is what make a person inteligent .

  125. @Dmitry
    Basques are not going to be so genetically very greatly different from other Spanish populations. At least if the different studies, are giving different results, and some say they are genetically not distinct - it cannot be such a large genetic difference.

    I know some studies say Basques are genetically different, but what about ones which say they are the same? e.g.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20157828


    But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time.
     
    But the clue must be a cultural one? Because people in this area of Spain do not look similar between each other (some are dark, some are blonde - but there is the mix all around the area).

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?

    We travelled on this train all the way up, and got off in both cities. And even the urban design is not different. (Miranda is less beautiful, and it doesn't have signs written in euskera - but you really think the people look different than a few kilometres on the same train?)

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?

    I explained this to you a couple of months ago when you asked me but it looks like you refuse to understand or believe the answer.

    What is the difference when you cross the border from one East London borough to the neighboring one? Surely all native Britons must be a mixture of South Asians, West Indians and Europeans…

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn’t make sense for the issue at hand. The demographic history of that city is not difficult to research, there is nothing controversial about it at all. There is a reason why we in Gipuzkoa used to call Vitorians “Manolos”, even though a good half of the population in my small industrial hometown was also from elsewhere in Spain https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitoria#Demograf%C3%ADa

    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I’m not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can’t get this point across to you.

    Regarding different genetic studies, I’m OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins. But what I said above is definitely the consensus opinion at the moment. Ancestry.com geneticists believe that they can distinguish a distinct Basque group (they can’t distinguish Russians from Ukrainians or Belarussians though)*

    Adult Basques don’t usually have blond hair, by the way. If that is the trait you were paying attention to, it was a wrong clue.

    * On the other hand, ancestry.com does include Western Ukrainians in a separate cluster that includes parts of the Balkans: Northwestern Romania and Northern Serbia, hope AP is not reading this.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn’t make sense for the issue at hand.
     
    Ok so you said before 1/4 of people in Vitoria are Basques.

    Then if you look at a video of Vitoria - you know which people are Basque and which are immigrants from La Rioja, Cantabria, Burgos, etc?

    I'm not arguing with you, but I am sceptical about this being something racial (i.e. visible externally), rather than cultural. It's interesting if people from Spain could notice. For me, they look an identical mix (i.e. a general Northern Spanish race).

    Here is Vitoria (which is 1/4 Basque)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcBAHnUc_ac

    Here must be real Basques of Gernika protesting about ETA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERqlDlDhcWM

    Here is non-Basque Burgos as a comparison.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqV6mTHgnXA

    For my eyes, I could not see a difference in the people.


    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I’m not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can’t get this point across to you.
     
    Obviously not. If you want to learn about a country you interested about, you need to visit, see with your eyes, try to learn its language.

    Peoples' opinions on the internet are not a reliable source, although they are entertaining to read. E.g. this is why I resistant to listening on questions like whether Basques look different to Northern Spanish, unless someone can show it to me with my eyes.


    I’m OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins.
     
    Personally, I am a fan of Pais Vasco, - and of preservation of small and mysterious nationalities in general.

    There was also an article in El Pais I read, arguing Basques could be anciently tracked to Catalonia.
    https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/09/07/ciencia/1441646688_571819.html

  126. @Sam Coulton
    37% of Luxembourg's population today is foreign born, but the vast majority of them are European people, who could not possibly have driven the murder rate to Compton levels in 1960. In fact, the immigrant share of the population was much lower back then, and today Luxembourg as a murder rate of less than 1 per 100,000.


    It makes no sense, evolutionarily speaking, for more intelligent people to be less violent. Are predators in the wild less intelligent than prey animals? No.

    a 10% of north africans in any european country will trasform their jails population automatically in 90% north africans if you add that the europeans came from the balcans romania and portugal you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

    the capacity to adapt , self control your instincts and wage wars when is needed is what make a person inteligent .

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    And yet, Luxembourg's murder rate decreased from 6-22 per 100,000 to less than 1 per 100,000 as it imported these immigrants.

    Luxembourg was still 90% indigenous in 1960 when the murder rate ballooned to 22.

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn't have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren't so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.

  127. @anat
    a 10% of north africans in any european country will trasform their jails population automatically in 90% north africans if you add that the europeans came from the balcans romania and portugal you have the perfect recipe for disaster.


    the capacity to adapt , self control your instincts and wage wars when is needed is what make a person inteligent .

    And yet, Luxembourg’s murder rate decreased from 6-22 per 100,000 to less than 1 per 100,000 as it imported these immigrants.

    Luxembourg was still 90% indigenous in 1960 when the murder rate ballooned to 22.

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn’t have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren’t so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.

    • Replies: @anat
    ????
    the correlation between iq/ race and behaviour /criminality is nearly absolute all across the west a couple of misinterpreted stadistic wont change that .



    here is the data of the ethnicity of criminals in germany extrapolable to all europeans countries starting with sweeden where 95% of rapes are done by inmigrants or in usa where the black-hispanic-white proportion is more or less the same
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/immigrant-crime-in-germany/
    , @anonymous coward

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn’t have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren’t so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.
     
    'HBD' is just the novel and very radical idea that nig-nogs are dumb. (Topkek.)

    Unless you're the kind of person that thinks that 'racism' is the worst sin in the universe a person can commit (i.e., an American), you don't need 'HBD'. You can call a spade a spade without inventing a 'theory' to rationalize it.

  128. @Dmitry

    Scotland... has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England)
     
    This probably is a good observation, in a ceteris paribus way (Scotland should be more intelligent than it is).

    But Aragon 22 points higher than Scotland, probably show this is not tracking the countries in such a useful way.

    Scotland has famous universities which carry students from across the world, while Aragon only has University of Zaragoza, which is not famous.

    Scotland is winning Nobel prizes in science all the time. Scotland has been a land of philosophers and intellectuals, while I don't think Aragon has famous intelligensia (although in other areas of Northern Spain, there was the famous philosopher Miguel De Unamuno).


    the outside world
     
    Scotland is an international leader of education and science. So nerds from outside world, also go to Scotland for education.

    Perhaps most nerds did not remain there after university - but today incomes are also high in Scotland and technology companies invest. So if they did not in the past, they will definitely receive some inflow of foreign nerds in the future.

    Over the years there has been a very significant dumbing down of education in Scotland. I attended elementary school for a year in Scotland in 1990 and as a 4th grader had no problems solving 8th grade papers. The year was an academic picnic.

    This was the experience of all children of senior Indian bureaucrats who were sent to Glasgow for training back then.

    Given the fact that Russian education system is far more rigorous it is actually surprising that Russia only gets one PISA point more than Scotland.

  129. @Sam Coulton
    And yet, Luxembourg's murder rate decreased from 6-22 per 100,000 to less than 1 per 100,000 as it imported these immigrants.

    Luxembourg was still 90% indigenous in 1960 when the murder rate ballooned to 22.

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn't have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren't so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.

    ????
    the correlation between iq/ race and behaviour /criminality is nearly absolute all across the west a couple of misinterpreted stadistic wont change that .

    here is the data of the ethnicity of criminals in germany extrapolable to all europeans countries starting with sweeden where 95% of rapes are done by inmigrants or in usa where the black-hispanic-white proportion is more or less the same
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/immigrant-crime-in-germany/

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    The definition of rape in Sweden was changed a few yeara ago to include things like spanking or groping (not even considered a sex crime, and is still a misdemeanor in places like Texas despite push for change). That's why the rate of "rape" increased in Sweden the past few years, and also because of feminism in tbe courts taking women more seriously than the law used to (a similar thing is happening in the USA).

    It's no surprise that when an old country like Sweden imports a bunch of lonely third world teenage manlets, to the point of imbalancing their sex ratio to beyond China levels, that you get an uptick of sexual assaults. It still says nothing about IQ, and the rate of assault, murder and other unambiguously real crimes have continued to decline in Sweden aince the 1990s. Meaning, Swedes used to be more violent when they were younger, than the current migrants.

    Alt-right/HBD: Rampant dishonesty, lies, failure to appreciate both the finer details and the bigger picture.

  130. @Sam Coulton
    You're also not taking in to account the staggering loss of Japanese males in urban areas in WW2. Adjusting for urbanization and sex ratio, Japan was the more violent country.

    The data clearly shows there is no relationship between IQ and violence. Perhaps I should have cited Luxembourg as a better example; since it was both urban and has one of the highest IQ averages in Europe - and in 1960 a higher murder rate than Compton, California does today.

    Japan sex ratio
    1960: 96.5
    1965: 96.4
    1970: 96.4

    USA sex ratio
    1960: 98.2
    1965: 97.81
    1970: 97.05

    Not a large difference. Also, Japan had a higher sex ratio in cities relative to rural areas in the 1960s. Here’s the numbers for 1960 according to Chester Hunter from Female Occupational Roles and Urban Sex Ratios in the United States, Japan, and the Philippines:

    Urban-rural sex ratios
    USA urban 94
    USA rural 104
    Japan urban 97.7
    Japan rural 95.4

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    This data is useless without any detail about age groups.
  131. @AaronB
    I don't think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn't align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.

    Intelligence has little relationship to violence. Violence rises together with general ambition and creative ferment.

    I don’t think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn’t align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.

    All you have shown is that the correlation between IQ and violence changes over time.

    Generalizing from television or novels is probably not the best empirical approach. You’re quickly becoming the Malcolm Gladwell of Unz posters.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Definitely, it changes over time. Which means there is no hard and fast link between IQ and violence. Which means it is likely a strategy, not an instinct.

    Smart people frequently nurse extremely violent revenge fantasies against bosses, abusers, ex girlfriends, etc. Yet they don't act on it in a modern environment. But in 19th century Germany, for instance, the most educated segment of the population - university students - were notorious for engaging in vicious duels as a pastime. No young man was considered attractive to women without a scarred face. In modern Israel, many of the smartest people end up in the most violent and action prone army units.

    So this HBD fantasy of a "fixed" instinct for violence - rather than a strategy depending on environment - is unintelligent.

    Today, many smart people can channel their aggressive instincts into business or entrepreneurship or politics.

    Novels and TV certainly don't reflect an accurate picture of real conditions in a society, but they do tell us something about the fantasies and dreams of a society, it's values and desires.

    You’re quickly becoming the Malcolm Gladwell of Unz posters.
     
    Lol.
  132. @EldnahYm

    I don’t think anyone who has watched Japanese TV, read Japanese novels, or is familiar with Japanese history can deny there is an extremely vicious violent and sadistic streak among Japanese.

    It is just another HBD myth that doesn’t align with reality.

    In Europe, ages of greatest intellectual activity were much more violent than today. Some estimates put 19th century European IQ much higher than today, when of course they were more violent.
     
    All you have shown is that the correlation between IQ and violence changes over time.

    Generalizing from television or novels is probably not the best empirical approach. You're quickly becoming the Malcolm Gladwell of Unz posters.

    Definitely, it changes over time. Which means there is no hard and fast link between IQ and violence. Which means it is likely a strategy, not an instinct.

    Smart people frequently nurse extremely violent revenge fantasies against bosses, abusers, ex girlfriends, etc. Yet they don’t act on it in a modern environment. But in 19th century Germany, for instance, the most educated segment of the population – university students – were notorious for engaging in vicious duels as a pastime. No young man was considered attractive to women without a scarred face. In modern Israel, many of the smartest people end up in the most violent and action prone army units.

    So this HBD fantasy of a “fixed” instinct for violence – rather than a strategy depending on environment – is unintelligent.

    Today, many smart people can channel their aggressive instincts into business or entrepreneurship or politics.

    Novels and TV certainly don’t reflect an accurate picture of real conditions in a society, but they do tell us something about the fantasies and dreams of a society, it’s values and desires.

    You’re quickly becoming the Malcolm Gladwell of Unz posters.

    Lol.

  133. @Sam Coulton
    And yet, Luxembourg's murder rate decreased from 6-22 per 100,000 to less than 1 per 100,000 as it imported these immigrants.

    Luxembourg was still 90% indigenous in 1960 when the murder rate ballooned to 22.

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn't have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren't so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.

    HBD/nationalism is so freaking dead. It doesn’t have a leg to stand on. I wish it weren’t so, as I wasted a sizeable portion of my young adult life (which I will never get back) taking it seriously.

    ‘HBD’ is just the novel and very radical idea that nig-nogs are dumb. (Topkek.)

    Unless you’re the kind of person that thinks that ‘racism’ is the worst sin in the universe a person can commit (i.e., an American), you don’t need ‘HBD’. You can call a spade a spade without inventing a ‘theory’ to rationalize it.

  134. @Anatoly Karlin
    Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    These 10 countries top the ranks in chemistry research 2019

    https://www.natureindex.com/news-blog/these-ten-countries-top-the-ranks-in-chemistry-research

    While the eight other nations in the top 10 have maintained their places since 2017, all except Spain have seen declines in their chemistry output.

  135. @EldnahYm
    Japan sex ratio
    1960: 96.5
    1965: 96.4
    1970: 96.4

    USA sex ratio
    1960: 98.2
    1965: 97.81
    1970: 97.05

    Not a large difference. Also, Japan had a higher sex ratio in cities relative to rural areas in the 1960s. Here's the numbers for 1960 according to Chester Hunter from Female Occupational Roles and Urban Sex Ratios in the United States, Japan, and the Philippines:

    Urban-rural sex ratios
    USA urban 94
    USA rural 104
    Japan urban 97.7
    Japan rural 95.4

    This data is useless without any detail about age groups.

  136. @anat
    ????
    the correlation between iq/ race and behaviour /criminality is nearly absolute all across the west a couple of misinterpreted stadistic wont change that .



    here is the data of the ethnicity of criminals in germany extrapolable to all europeans countries starting with sweeden where 95% of rapes are done by inmigrants or in usa where the black-hispanic-white proportion is more or less the same
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/immigrant-crime-in-germany/

    The definition of rape in Sweden was changed a few yeara ago to include things like spanking or groping (not even considered a sex crime, and is still a misdemeanor in places like Texas despite push for change). That’s why the rate of “rape” increased in Sweden the past few years, and also because of feminism in tbe courts taking women more seriously than the law used to (a similar thing is happening in the USA).

    It’s no surprise that when an old country like Sweden imports a bunch of lonely third world teenage manlets, to the point of imbalancing their sex ratio to beyond China levels, that you get an uptick of sexual assaults. It still says nothing about IQ, and the rate of assault, murder and other unambiguously real crimes have continued to decline in Sweden aince the 1990s. Meaning, Swedes used to be more violent when they were younger, than the current migrants.

    Alt-right/HBD: Rampant dishonesty, lies, failure to appreciate both the finer details and the bigger picture.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
  137. @Matra
    I find it hard to believe the Scots are smarter than the English, considering Scotland is basically sustained by English tax payers’ money through the “Barnett Formula”

    Yes, especially when you consider that Scotland lost a lot of its intelligent population to places with more opportunities
    - both the Empire and England itself. (A surprisingly significant chunk of the successful old white Dominions- eg. Canada - are actually more Scottish than English).

    Glasgow at one point at the highest homicide rate in Europe.

    I don't know about recent decades but I think in the 20th century Glasgow's famously high rate of violent criminality was largely due to the city's Irish diaspora.

    Most posters here have no real clue about the UK as a whole. There seems to be a strong anti-English undercurrent among posters here which is probably the motivation for trying to portray the Scots as superior to the English and the pro-Irish, pro-Republican sentiment frequently seen here.

    The reality is no one with any real knowledge of Scotland and England in the 21st century would try to claim that the Scots are more intelligent and that Scotland is a more developed country than England because they would know how ridiculous that sounds. Not even the most ardent Scottish nationalists would try to claim that Scotland is more prosperous than England, especially Southern England.

    • Agree: Matra
  138. Some people will not like it…

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    Now do one for grenade attacks
  139. @Sam Coulton
    If by "Nordicomans" you mean all anthropologists, yes.

    It's melanf vs the academic establishment on this one. My money is on the people who actually know what they're talking about.

    If by “Nordicomans” you mean all anthropologists, yes.

    No, under nordicmans I mean the fans from the forums, a La “racial standards of nordids-Aryans”

    But anthropologists write approximately so

    “the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons is highlighted. This is a very long-headed, broad-faced population, with large head and face sizes, with pronounced “Germanic” proportions of the brain and facial skeleton.” (Алексеева “Славяне и германцы”)
    Here is a reconstruction of the Viking woman ( by the skull)


    Exceptionally wide faces of the Scandinavians visible on any group picture of these Scandinavians (well, except for the groups selected for looks or a special physical data). The Finns, Northern Russians and Balts also have wide faces – this is a common feature of the population of Northern Europe.

    • Disagree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    Your mental disability seems to be preventing you from noticing this important adjective:

    the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons
     
    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.


    Your statements:



    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.
     
    Aren't supported by your quote about a few medieval samples.


    Here's what the science says about actual European human beings, in this reality:


    https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherfieur.jpg



    Facial index under 83 is considered "face short relative to breadth"

    Facial index over 86 is considered "face narrow relative to length"

    Nordics do not infact have these square box shaped heads. As all anthropologists agreed in the 20th century.

    Also, please refrain from posting pictures of ugly, monstruous looking women in this thread.
  140. @Anatoly Karlin
    Such minor differences aren't meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don't think it's absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian. Scotland has had dysgenic reproduction for at least half a century longer, and has been bleeding off its best to southern England and the outside world (just like northern England) for 2-3 centuries.

    Such minor differences aren’t meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don’t think it’s absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian.

    You missed the point. In Russia, 10 percent of the indigenous population are semi-medieval tribes with very low pisa test scores. Another 15% percent of the indigenous Russian population live in isolated semi-medieval villages (such villages in Scotland disappeared 200 years ago) where all the entertainment is drunken fights and hunting.
    Here is for example – you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
    On this if average performance of tests of Scots (without migrants) equal average performance of tests on Russia, then that means that today’s Russians (without wild tribes and “peasants” populating Russia) significantly smarter than Scots (but stupider than Aragonians, or Croats). This is absurd

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    Please stop posting pictures of ugly, gargoyle-type North Euro females in this thread. There are enough of them already. It is not at all necessary to clutter the comment section with images of these horrid females to get a point across.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    ... you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
     
    Yes, I do. See:

    Shibaev, Vladimir. 2015. “Исследование психометрического интеллекта у народов Дальнего Востока России.” Сибирский психологический журнал 58: 149–61.

    p.155 gives an average IQ of 80 and 85 for small samples of remote rural ethnic Russians in Primorye on the Raven's SPM+ (i.e. very sensitive to the Flynn Effect).

    Africans ofc score around 70, and that's on average, not the equivalents (which would be in villages in the deep Congo).

    ***

    Unlike Scotland, Russia has Moscow (and SPB before that), which have been cognitive magnets for Russian (and extra-Russian) talent for centuries. Scotland's Moscow... was London.
  141. @melanf

    If by “Nordicomans” you mean all anthropologists, yes.
     
    No, under nordicmans I mean the fans from the forums, a La "racial standards of nordids-Aryans"

    But anthropologists write approximately so

    "the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons is highlighted. This is a very long-headed, broad-faced population, with large head and face sizes, with pronounced "Germanic" proportions of the brain and facial skeleton." (Алексеева "Славяне и германцы")
    Here is a reconstruction of the Viking woman ( by the skull)

    https://golos.ua/images/items/2019-11/03/trg1XAjOUxl3BkCz/img_top.jpg

    Exceptionally wide faces of the Scandinavians visible on any group picture of these Scandinavians (well, except for the groups selected for looks or a special physical data). The Finns, Northern Russians and Balts also have wide faces - this is a common feature of the population of Northern Europe.

    https://c.radikal.ru/c26/1912/6e/50864e0ca2b1.jpg

    Your mental disability seems to be preventing you from noticing this important adjective:

    the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons

    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.

    Your statements:

    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.

    Aren’t supported by your quote about a few medieval samples.

    Here’s what the science says about actual European human beings, in this reality:

    Facial index under 83 is considered “face short relative to breadth”

    Facial index over 86 is considered “face narrow relative to length”

    Nordics do not infact have these square box shaped heads. As all anthropologists agreed in the 20th century.

    Also, please refrain from posting pictures of ugly, monstruous looking women in this thread.

    • Replies: @melanf

    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.
     
    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages. However, Google "group of Swedish/Norwegian / Icelandic students" and see what faces will be in the photos. If you find at least one group photo with long narrow faces - I will be grateful to you.
  142. @melanf

    Such minor differences aren’t meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don’t think it’s absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian.
     
    You missed the point. In Russia, 10 percent of the indigenous population are semi-medieval tribes with very low pisa test scores. Another 15% percent of the indigenous Russian population live in isolated semi-medieval villages (such villages in Scotland disappeared 200 years ago) where all the entertainment is drunken fights and hunting.
    Here is for example - you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
    https://www.primorsky.ru/upload/iblock/98a/98aff4336f47786c27c85280f17b702b.jpg

    On this if average performance of tests of Scots (without migrants) equal average performance of tests on Russia, then that means that today's Russians (without wild tribes and "peasants" populating Russia) significantly smarter than Scots (but stupider than Aragonians, or Croats). This is absurd

    Please stop posting pictures of ugly, gargoyle-type North Euro females in this thread. There are enough of them already. It is not at all necessary to clutter the comment section with images of these horrid females to get a point across.

  143. @melanf

    Such minor differences aren’t meaningful (one PISA point lol?). But I don’t think it’s absurd that average Scot might be similar to average Russian.
     
    You missed the point. In Russia, 10 percent of the indigenous population are semi-medieval tribes with very low pisa test scores. Another 15% percent of the indigenous Russian population live in isolated semi-medieval villages (such villages in Scotland disappeared 200 years ago) where all the entertainment is drunken fights and hunting.
    Here is for example - you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
    https://www.primorsky.ru/upload/iblock/98a/98aff4336f47786c27c85280f17b702b.jpg

    On this if average performance of tests of Scots (without migrants) equal average performance of tests on Russia, then that means that today's Russians (without wild tribes and "peasants" populating Russia) significantly smarter than Scots (but stupider than Aragonians, or Croats). This is absurd

    … you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?

    Yes, I do. See:

    Shibaev, Vladimir. 2015. “Исследование психометрического интеллекта у народов Дальнего Востока России.” Сибирский психологический журнал 58: 149–61.

    p.155 gives an average IQ of 80 and 85 for small samples of remote rural ethnic Russians in Primorye on the Raven’s SPM+ (i.e. very sensitive to the Flynn Effect).

    Africans ofc score around 70, and that’s on average, not the equivalents (which would be in villages in the deep Congo).

    ***

    Unlike Scotland, Russia has Moscow (and SPB before that), which have been cognitive magnets for Russian (and extra-Russian) talent for centuries. Scotland’s Moscow… was London.

    • Replies: @melanf

    average IQ of 80 and 85 for small samples of remote rural ethnic Russians
     
    these people would have an IQ of about 100 if they lived in cities. That's why the traditional village is the ultimate evil.

    Unlike Scotland, Russia has Moscow (and SPB before that), which have been cognitive magnets for Russian
     
    This explanation could be assumed as a valid hypothesis, if not for the results of Aragon, Slovenia, and similar examples from the same list of Pisa tests.

    And Scotland has cognitive magnets. Here is a map of scientific publications (publications in English)

    http://www.200stran.ru/images/maps/1288012632_485ad4.jpg
  144. @Anatoly Karlin
    This is a legacy of Sevastopol having been separate from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea during its stay within the UkSSR. Perhaps it will be formally incorporated into the Republic of Crimea one day.

    This is a legacy of Sevastopol having been separate from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea during its stay within the UkSSR. Perhaps it will be formally incorporated into the Republic of Crimea one day.

    Aha, thanks.

  145. @Sam Coulton
    I'm an actual anthropologist and the average IQ in Europe is ~94. Besides, someone in this thread already said he looks German. And he is German. So you and your hypothetical Europeans can suck it.

    I’m an actual anthropologist and the average IQ in Europe is ~94. Besides, someone in this thread already said he looks German. And he is German. So you and your hypothetical Europeans can suck it.

    Being German is not the same as looking German. For someone who both is and looks German, I give you Marvin Game:

  146. @Dmitry
    Spanish have a wide variation in appearance - but in the simpleton's way, I guess it is something like 60% brown and 40% white people.

    And from that 40% white people, there is a smaller proportion of Spanish people who look like any stereotype North European - German, Russians, English, Irish, etc.

    Nationality in Spain is not centred from appearance, but language and culture. For example, Basques, have the same wild mix of physical appearance as other Northern Spanish people, but they identify to be a different nation than Cantabria or La Rioja (but people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people).


    Europeans have a very keen eye for subtle regional differences in appearance.
     
    Between North and South Europe, there is of course very significant average physical appearance differences.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference - just different distributions or mixes of types.

    In different nationalities of North Europe, you visually notice much more nationality from body language, than physical appearance.

    For example, I work in a country in North West Europe. This summer I was walking in a noisy, crowded street in a crowded city, and saw a group of people about 50 metres further, and my unconscious said "oh Russian there". And then when they are much closer, they are of course speaking Russian.

    Your unconscious perceives nationality by bodylanguage even from a long distance, but you can't explain consciously what it is that is different.

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference – just different distributions or mixes of types.

    There is truth in this, but Nothernerns can still discern quite a few “sublooks” among broad categories like “blond hair with blue eyes.” Marvin Game, in the video I posted before, looks unmistakably German even though blond hair and blue eyes are common all over northern Europe.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    can still discern quite a few “sublooks” among broad categories like “blond hair with blue eyes
     
    There are some faces which are frequent in one country, and unfrequent in another.

    But I am sure the majority of peoples' faces are still found (if with different frequencies) in all Northern European countries, and the difference you perceive is more in the faces' expression or bodylanguage. (People in different Northern European nationalities have very different expressions in their face, and characteristic movements - and this what we more perceive).

    -

    There's an internet game, you can try on yourself - think about famous people, who can be siblings across different Northern European nationalities.

    For example, here is Prime Minister of Russia.

    https://topspb.tv/768x432/uploaded/news_covers/medzhvedv9s3getr8cxnfkv_ffowItn.jpg

    Here is the Minister of Economy (Chancellor) of the UK. (Maybe not so similar, but millions of people in Europe look slightly like Prime Minister of Russia, who has such a common face).

    https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/cropped_article_image/public/blogs_2015/10/gettyimages-491250934.jpg?itok=3DVNELcQ

    On the other hand, Putin, even before he had so much plastic surgery, has an uncommon face in Russia, and probably his face looks weird in most countries in the world.

    So it's not so easy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHIYeeijYc
    But (before his plastic surgery) perhaps he reminds he could have been a sibling, of an actor of "Gareth" in the BBC's edition of "The Office".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMPC-epMEg

  147. @Anatoly Karlin

    ... you think these children on tests will strongly differ from Africans?
     
    Yes, I do. See:

    Shibaev, Vladimir. 2015. “Исследование психометрического интеллекта у народов Дальнего Востока России.” Сибирский психологический журнал 58: 149–61.

    p.155 gives an average IQ of 80 and 85 for small samples of remote rural ethnic Russians in Primorye on the Raven's SPM+ (i.e. very sensitive to the Flynn Effect).

    Africans ofc score around 70, and that's on average, not the equivalents (which would be in villages in the deep Congo).

    ***

    Unlike Scotland, Russia has Moscow (and SPB before that), which have been cognitive magnets for Russian (and extra-Russian) talent for centuries. Scotland's Moscow... was London.

    average IQ of 80 and 85 for small samples of remote rural ethnic Russians

    these people would have an IQ of about 100 if they lived in cities. That’s why the traditional village is the ultimate evil.

    Unlike Scotland, Russia has Moscow (and SPB before that), which have been cognitive magnets for Russian

    This explanation could be assumed as a valid hypothesis, if not for the results of Aragon, Slovenia, and similar examples from the same list of Pisa tests.

    And Scotland has cognitive magnets. Here is a map of scientific publications (publications in English)

  148. @Sam Coulton
    Your mental disability seems to be preventing you from noticing this important adjective:

    the complex of anthropological features inherent in the medieval population of Norway and the Anglo-Saxons
     
    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.


    Your statements:



    Nordicomans like to lay out (as a sample of the Northern race) photo of a vampires-albinos with long, narrow faces, for example:

    But such faces are extremely atypical for the North of Europe.
     
    Aren't supported by your quote about a few medieval samples.


    Here's what the science says about actual European human beings, in this reality:


    https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherfieur.jpg



    Facial index under 83 is considered "face short relative to breadth"

    Facial index over 86 is considered "face narrow relative to length"

    Nordics do not infact have these square box shaped heads. As all anthropologists agreed in the 20th century.

    Also, please refrain from posting pictures of ugly, monstruous looking women in this thread.

    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.

    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages. However, Google “group of Swedish/Norwegian / Icelandic students” and see what faces will be in the photos. If you find at least one group photo with long narrow faces – I will be grateful to you.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton

    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages.

     

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.


    The data from this 2018 paper explains how Scandinavians have changed since the middle ages. Massive importation of Irish Celtic females (and possible femicide of indigenous women?) to Scandinavia from Viking raids heavily shifted the autosomal DNA of modern Scandinavians away from the original, more heavily Steppe-like Germanic tribes that originally inhabited Sweden and Norway.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/viking-age-iceland.html

  149. @Mikel

    people in Cantabria and La Rioja look like the same mix of types as Pais Vasco people
     
    Well, as Swedish Family says, we Europeans are capable of easily identifying our neighbors (apparently East Asians can also distinguish themselves from each other while they all look similar to me, it must be a global phenomenon) but of course this ability is lost as we travel away from our part of the continent.

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I'm pretty sure locals can detect that difference and if I spent some time in the region I could probably acquire that ability too.

    You are trying to do the same exercise here and jumping to hasty conclusions from a couple of visits.

    Apparently, in the times when the Basque Country had not been flooded by immigrants from other Spanish regions foreigners were also able to see a difference in physical traits. Both John Adams, the second president of the US, and French writer Victor Hugo visited the Basque Country in the early 19th century and took it for granted that, unlike our neighbors, we were Celts.

    https://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_04.htm

    As it happens, both were wrong. We are not Celts and the main relationship we have with them (or with the current inhabitants of Celtic speaking areas, to be more precise) is that we are largely unadmixed descendants from the peoples who lived in the westernmost part of Europe during the early Iron Age. But still, I can say who is Basque and who is Spanish and be right ~90% of the time. Some Spaniards, especially in the North, also have little post-Iron Age admixture so those are the ones that are difficult to distinguish from us.

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I’m pretty sure locals can detect that difference

    It is certain that the locals will not be able to determine such differences. Recognition of nationality (for “racially” close nationalities) is mostly done by facial expressions/gestures/clothes/hair…. It’s just impossible to tell by the face who it is: Russian or German or Swede or Finn. When I offer to determine the nationality by the photo the result is close to random (despite the fact that the definition is carried out by the very people who claimed that 100% determine the nationality of the form of the human physiognomy)

    • Replies: @AP
    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap. I recall you posted two groups and ~ 70 % of the Swedes looked like Swedes, 30% like Finns and vice versa.
  150. @melanf

    The clock on my desk indicates that we are living in the year 2019, 3rd millennium. Not the medieval period.
     
    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages. However, Google "group of Swedish/Norwegian / Icelandic students" and see what faces will be in the photos. If you find at least one group photo with long narrow faces - I will be grateful to you.

    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages.

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.

    The data from this 2018 paper explains how Scandinavians have changed since the middle ages. Massive importation of Irish Celtic females (and possible femicide of indigenous women?) to Scandinavia from Viking raids heavily shifted the autosomal DNA of modern Scandinavians away from the original, more heavily Steppe-like Germanic tribes that originally inhabited Sweden and Norway.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/viking-age-iceland.html

    • Replies: @melanf

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.
     
    "The greatest expression of the "Germanic" anthropological traits of the Icelanders is confirmed in their isolated position on the island, not inhabited before them . The specificity of the anthropological type of Icelanders is combined with the preservation of ancient forms of Scandinavian language and culture"

    However, regardless of how the ancient Germans looked, modern Scandinavians have (on average) wide faces, which can be seen in any group photos
    , @Sam Coulton
    As we see from this picture, modern day Scandinavians (Germanics) are much closer to modern day Celtic people and iron age "_mixed" Vikings than they are to the original "norse" vikings:


    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QOQJGfLfvm8/XenfQY1kZJI/AAAAAAAAIhM/ihaeVQrtFHUB5VOABE40lJ470q_UGAVwACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Viking_Age_Iceland_PCA.png
  151. @Sam Coulton

    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages.

     

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.


    The data from this 2018 paper explains how Scandinavians have changed since the middle ages. Massive importation of Irish Celtic females (and possible femicide of indigenous women?) to Scandinavia from Viking raids heavily shifted the autosomal DNA of modern Scandinavians away from the original, more heavily Steppe-like Germanic tribes that originally inhabited Sweden and Norway.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/viking-age-iceland.html

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.

    The greatest expression of the “Germanic” anthropological traits of the Icelanders is confirmed in their isolated position on the island, not inhabited before them . The specificity of the anthropological type of Icelanders is combined with the preservation of ancient forms of Scandinavian language and culture

    However, regardless of how the ancient Germans looked, modern Scandinavians have (on average) wide faces, which can be seen in any group photos

    • Disagree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ. This gels with my observations comparing ethnic Swedes with non-Nordic immigrants (particularly balkanoids and slavs). This can also be seen even anecdotally by looking at the two most famous Swedes on the internet, PewDiePie and TheGoldenOne. Both have long faces, which is the most common feature. By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm. I can usually, though not always, separate a slav from the crowd. You people do have distinctive features. Putin is a good archetype of those.

    It's important to make a distinction between wide and round, however. They are not necessarily the same. James Watson (PBUH) noted many years ago that wide faces are typically correlated with higher aggression, something which would be at odds which the stereotype of calm Northern Europeans. INB4 "vikings". The vikings happened a long time ago, and it is far from obvious they were more brutal than their contemporaries, more like superior in warfare, which is not the same. A parallell can be made here to Europeans in the 17th-19th centuries, who were not more brutal than African tribesmen, just better at warfare.

    Parenthentically, I have noticed that Nordic women tend to have wider hips and/or bigger asses. I thought it was just a Swedish thing but I've heard the same from some Danes I've spoken to. They brought it up on their own talking about their own girls, comparing them to british and german girls. I was in Oslo a few years ago and noticed the same thing there. Whenever I travel to Europe it is one of the most immediate changes (along with worse public sanitation) that you notice.

  152. @Sam Coulton

    The same anthropologists say that Scandinavians (especially Icelanders) have not changed fundamentally since the middle ages.

     

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.


    The data from this 2018 paper explains how Scandinavians have changed since the middle ages. Massive importation of Irish Celtic females (and possible femicide of indigenous women?) to Scandinavia from Viking raids heavily shifted the autosomal DNA of modern Scandinavians away from the original, more heavily Steppe-like Germanic tribes that originally inhabited Sweden and Norway.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/11/viking-age-iceland.html

    As we see from this picture, modern day Scandinavians (Germanics) are much closer to modern day Celtic people and iron age “_mixed” Vikings than they are to the original “norse” vikings:

  153. @Sam Coulton
    Some people will not like it...

    https://europeum.blogactiv.eu/files/2017/03/Homicides-Sweden.jpg

    Now do one for grenade attacks

    • LOL: songbird, reiner Tor
  154. @melanf

    Which is of course a nonsensical statement; as Icelanders were never Scandinavians but mixed Scandinavian/Celtic to begin with.
     
    "The greatest expression of the "Germanic" anthropological traits of the Icelanders is confirmed in their isolated position on the island, not inhabited before them . The specificity of the anthropological type of Icelanders is combined with the preservation of ancient forms of Scandinavian language and culture"

    However, regardless of how the ancient Germans looked, modern Scandinavians have (on average) wide faces, which can be seen in any group photos

    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ. This gels with my observations comparing ethnic Swedes with non-Nordic immigrants (particularly balkanoids and slavs). This can also be seen even anecdotally by looking at the two most famous Swedes on the internet, PewDiePie and TheGoldenOne. Both have long faces, which is the most common feature. By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm. I can usually, though not always, separate a slav from the crowd. You people do have distinctive features. Putin is a good archetype of those.

    It’s important to make a distinction between wide and round, however. They are not necessarily the same. James Watson (PBUH) noted many years ago that wide faces are typically correlated with higher aggression, something which would be at odds which the stereotype of calm Northern Europeans. INB4 “vikings”. The vikings happened a long time ago, and it is far from obvious they were more brutal than their contemporaries, more like superior in warfare, which is not the same. A parallell can be made here to Europeans in the 17th-19th centuries, who were not more brutal than African tribesmen, just better at warfare.

    Parenthentically, I have noticed that Nordic women tend to have wider hips and/or bigger asses. I thought it was just a Swedish thing but I’ve heard the same from some Danes I’ve spoken to. They brought it up on their own talking about their own girls, comparing them to british and german girls. I was in Oslo a few years ago and noticed the same thing there. Whenever I travel to Europe it is one of the most immediate changes (along with worse public sanitation) that you notice.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    Agreed, the violence of the Viking raiders was not something out of the ordinary
    What they did is what happens when someone sacks a town/city
    Every single ethno-linguistic has something similar to the Viking Age era atrocities in their history

    Though it might serve the Nords to be a bit more aggressive in the future, goes the same for most Europeans
    , @melanf

    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ.
     
    Write in Google "a group of Swedish students" and after looking at the pictures. In the first picture Swedes with wide faces, in the second picture Swedes with wide faces, in the third picture Swedes with wide faces... On all pictures Swedes with wide faces

    https://d.radikal.ru/d39/1912/40/bf9c0f895b5c.png

    This experiment can easily be done by anyone

    long faces ...linked to higher IQ
     
    O_o!
    , @melanf

    By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm.
     
    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don't know).

    A single Slavic phenotype does not exist because the Slavs have different origins. Southern Russians are genetically identical to poles, Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs, but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
    The southern Slavs also form separate genetic clusters
  155. @melanf

    If I went to Saint Petersburg I guess I would be unable to say who is a native Ingrian/Karelian and who descends from other parts of Russia but I’m pretty sure locals can detect that difference
     
    It is certain that the locals will not be able to determine such differences. Recognition of nationality (for "racially" close nationalities) is mostly done by facial expressions/gestures/clothes/hair.... It's just impossible to tell by the face who it is: Russian or German or Swede or Finn. When I offer to determine the nationality by the photo the result is close to random (despite the fact that the definition is carried out by the very people who claimed that 100% determine the nationality of the form of the human physiognomy)

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap. I recall you posted two groups and ~ 70 % of the Swedes looked like Swedes, 30% like Finns and vice versa.

    • Replies: @melanf

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap.
     
    When you were asked to look at a photo and choose a nationality (out of 5 options) you managed to give three wrong answers (that is, your result was worse than random)


    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine - where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sait-4-440x294.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/obloga-3-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/sait-i-meta-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sait-1-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/sait-2-300x200.jpg
  156. @Thulean Friend
    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ. This gels with my observations comparing ethnic Swedes with non-Nordic immigrants (particularly balkanoids and slavs). This can also be seen even anecdotally by looking at the two most famous Swedes on the internet, PewDiePie and TheGoldenOne. Both have long faces, which is the most common feature. By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm. I can usually, though not always, separate a slav from the crowd. You people do have distinctive features. Putin is a good archetype of those.

    It's important to make a distinction between wide and round, however. They are not necessarily the same. James Watson (PBUH) noted many years ago that wide faces are typically correlated with higher aggression, something which would be at odds which the stereotype of calm Northern Europeans. INB4 "vikings". The vikings happened a long time ago, and it is far from obvious they were more brutal than their contemporaries, more like superior in warfare, which is not the same. A parallell can be made here to Europeans in the 17th-19th centuries, who were not more brutal than African tribesmen, just better at warfare.

    Parenthentically, I have noticed that Nordic women tend to have wider hips and/or bigger asses. I thought it was just a Swedish thing but I've heard the same from some Danes I've spoken to. They brought it up on their own talking about their own girls, comparing them to british and german girls. I was in Oslo a few years ago and noticed the same thing there. Whenever I travel to Europe it is one of the most immediate changes (along with worse public sanitation) that you notice.

    Agreed, the violence of the Viking raiders was not something out of the ordinary
    What they did is what happens when someone sacks a town/city
    Every single ethno-linguistic has something similar to the Viking Age era atrocities in their history

    Though it might serve the Nords to be a bit more aggressive in the future, goes the same for most Europeans

  157. @Thulean Friend
    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ. This gels with my observations comparing ethnic Swedes with non-Nordic immigrants (particularly balkanoids and slavs). This can also be seen even anecdotally by looking at the two most famous Swedes on the internet, PewDiePie and TheGoldenOne. Both have long faces, which is the most common feature. By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm. I can usually, though not always, separate a slav from the crowd. You people do have distinctive features. Putin is a good archetype of those.

    It's important to make a distinction between wide and round, however. They are not necessarily the same. James Watson (PBUH) noted many years ago that wide faces are typically correlated with higher aggression, something which would be at odds which the stereotype of calm Northern Europeans. INB4 "vikings". The vikings happened a long time ago, and it is far from obvious they were more brutal than their contemporaries, more like superior in warfare, which is not the same. A parallell can be made here to Europeans in the 17th-19th centuries, who were not more brutal than African tribesmen, just better at warfare.

    Parenthentically, I have noticed that Nordic women tend to have wider hips and/or bigger asses. I thought it was just a Swedish thing but I've heard the same from some Danes I've spoken to. They brought it up on their own talking about their own girls, comparing them to british and german girls. I was in Oslo a few years ago and noticed the same thing there. Whenever I travel to Europe it is one of the most immediate changes (along with worse public sanitation) that you notice.

    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ.

    Write in Google “a group of Swedish students” and after looking at the pictures. In the first picture Swedes with wide faces, in the second picture Swedes with wide faces, in the third picture Swedes with wide faces… On all pictures Swedes with wide faces

    This experiment can easily be done by anyone

    long faces …linked to higher IQ

    O_o!

  158. @AP
    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap. I recall you posted two groups and ~ 70 % of the Swedes looked like Swedes, 30% like Finns and vice versa.

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap.

    When you were asked to look at a photo and choose a nationality (out of 5 options) you managed to give three wrong answers (that is, your result was worse than random)

    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine – where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine – where the Finns, and where the Swedes.
     
    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let's say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it's a close call). #4 could be either (it's pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    1. Swedish, if I had to guess, though doesn't look much like them. But certainly not Finnish.
    2. Finnish af
    3. Finnish
    4. Interesting breed, but I'd still say Finnish.
    5. Norwegian! Swedes who sort of look like Slavs.
    , @AP
    Is that when options included Poles, Finns, etc?

    You posted two teams. There were both types in each team but more Nordic people in the Swedish team and vice versa.
  159. @Thulean Friend
    Too lazy to look it up now, but there was some HBD research on some of the Swedish alt websites showing that Northern Europeans in particular have long faces and this was linked to higher IQ. This gels with my observations comparing ethnic Swedes with non-Nordic immigrants (particularly balkanoids and slavs). This can also be seen even anecdotally by looking at the two most famous Swedes on the internet, PewDiePie and TheGoldenOne. Both have long faces, which is the most common feature. By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm. I can usually, though not always, separate a slav from the crowd. You people do have distinctive features. Putin is a good archetype of those.

    It's important to make a distinction between wide and round, however. They are not necessarily the same. James Watson (PBUH) noted many years ago that wide faces are typically correlated with higher aggression, something which would be at odds which the stereotype of calm Northern Europeans. INB4 "vikings". The vikings happened a long time ago, and it is far from obvious they were more brutal than their contemporaries, more like superior in warfare, which is not the same. A parallell can be made here to Europeans in the 17th-19th centuries, who were not more brutal than African tribesmen, just better at warfare.

    Parenthentically, I have noticed that Nordic women tend to have wider hips and/or bigger asses. I thought it was just a Swedish thing but I've heard the same from some Danes I've spoken to. They brought it up on their own talking about their own girls, comparing them to british and german girls. I was in Oslo a few years ago and noticed the same thing there. Whenever I travel to Europe it is one of the most immediate changes (along with worse public sanitation) that you notice.

    By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm.

    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don’t know).

    A single Slavic phenotype does not exist because the Slavs have different origins. Southern Russians are genetically identical to poles, Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs, but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
    The southern Slavs also form separate genetic clusters

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Southern Russians are genetically identical to Poles
     
    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn't we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.


    Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs
     
    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians. Do you even consider yourself slavic?

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
     
    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.
    , @Swedish Family

    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don’t know).
     
    Can't find any links now, but someone once named the ethnic group he is said to hail from -- some tiny Finno-Ugric people, as I remember -- and the likeness was striking.
  160. @Thulean Friend
    The same guy posted this:

    https://i.imgur.com/Lmzs6vW.png

    Moscow's native math scores is a measly 496, lower than many countries' scores. Moscow is many things but an international cognitive center it is not. Merely mediocre at best. Flemish Belgians (i.e. Dutch) have a respectable 532. The score for native Dutch is exactly the same.

    https://i.imgur.com/j3zVcs3.jpg


    My guess is that the scores for native Dutch in Amsterdam would be even higher, which is the comparative population for Moscow's number. An even more interesting comparison would be Berlin, given Germany's native scores (522). The scores for native Swedes in Stockholm should also be higher than the so-so national average (517).

    Looking at this map and Norse scores… Quebec seems like a Norse country on the American continent.

    Mean math PISA of 532 – highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don’t bother with official marriage – 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.

    *Most immigrants to Quebec come from China, France and India, so it’s not due to importing francophone Africans in significant numbers.

    https://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/statistiques/population-demographie/bilan-demographique_an.html

    And Quebeckers have nothing to do with Scandinavian/Protestant ancestry. It’s almost as if recent government policies (in this case creating a socially-oriented state) have more weight in shaping a population’s character than its genetics or history.

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it’s been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I’d rather stay here.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it’s been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I’d rather stay here.
     
    Yeah, looks like he shat it up, as he is won't to do when he's not reigned in for too long. Back into the ban list he goes.
    , @Thulean Friend

    Mean math PISA of 532 – highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don’t bother with official marriage – 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.
     
    The latter parts do indeed make them sound fairly sociologically "Nordic", you're correct about that. It would be interesting to contrast those numbers with other provinces. Is Quebec an outlier in out-of-wedlock births for instance? What about religiosity (or lack thereof)? It would also be interesting to know from where in France most of them came from (north or south).

    But what surprised me even more than Quebec was the relatively poor performance of British Columbia (B.C.). Vancouver has far fewer blacks and other low-performing groups than Toronto or Montreal. It is something like 1/3rd Chinese and many of them are cognitive elites of China (often corrupt officials or just well-to-do people buying property overseas and then moving). There is also a small but rapidly growing Indian elite population. Toronto has lots of smart minorities but it also has a non-trivial Jamaican and Caribbean black population. Montreal has plenty of arabs and middle-easterners. So in that sense, B.C. should not be performing that poorly unless their rural areas are performing massively worse than the rural areas of Ontario, for which I would be at a loss to explain. One would also need to know what share the native tribes constitute of the testing population.

  161. @Europe Europa
    High IQ for Lisbon is surprising, high percentage of Jewish descent maybe? I've read that in both Spain and Portugal in general there is a lot of Jewish ancestry amongst the elites. Also, I think there's a significant Germanic component to the Spanish elites as well. For instance, King Felipe does not look very much like a typical Spaniard

    Spain seems to me like a country where there is a high IQ, mostly ethnically non-native elite ruling over the native population.

    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews–and they don’t appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.

    • Replies: @melanf

    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews–and they don’t appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.
     
    If my memory does not deceive me - out of about 20 Nobel prizes received by Italian scientists, 5 prizes were received by Italian Sephardic Jews. In Holland (in the past) Sephardic Jews constituted the Jewish elite over Ashkenazi Jews.
  162. Could southern Spain’s relatively low PISA performance have anything to do with the fact that it was ruled longer by Muslims than northern and central Spain were? Muslim rule is sometimes associated with things such as the spread of FBD cousin marriage–which can apparently reduce IQs quite a bit.

    • Replies: @songbird
    The Canary Islands have the highest North African admixture, right? Too bad this map doesn't break it down island by island, as the percentages differ.
  163. @Toronto Russian
    Looking at this map and Norse scores... Quebec seems like a Norse country on the American continent.

    Mean math PISA of 532 - highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don't bother with official marriage - 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.

    *Most immigrants to Quebec come from China, France and India, so it's not due to importing francophone Africans in significant numbers.

    https://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/statistiques/population-demographie/bilan-demographique_an.html

    And Quebeckers have nothing to do with Scandinavian/Protestant ancestry. It's almost as if recent government policies (in this case creating a socially-oriented state) have more weight in shaping a population's character than its genetics or history.

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it's been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I'd rather stay here.

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it’s been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I’d rather stay here.

    Yeah, looks like he shat it up, as he is won’t to do when he’s not reigned in for too long. Back into the ban list he goes.

  164. @Mr. XYZ
    Could southern Spain's relatively low PISA performance have anything to do with the fact that it was ruled longer by Muslims than northern and central Spain were? Muslim rule is sometimes associated with things such as the spread of FBD cousin marriage--which can apparently reduce IQs quite a bit.

    The Canary Islands have the highest North African admixture, right? Too bad this map doesn’t break it down island by island, as the percentages differ.

  165. @Toronto Russian
    Looking at this map and Norse scores... Quebec seems like a Norse country on the American continent.

    Mean math PISA of 532 - highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don't bother with official marriage - 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.

    *Most immigrants to Quebec come from China, France and India, so it's not due to importing francophone Africans in significant numbers.

    https://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/statistiques/population-demographie/bilan-demographique_an.html

    And Quebeckers have nothing to do with Scandinavian/Protestant ancestry. It's almost as if recent government policies (in this case creating a socially-oriented state) have more weight in shaping a population's character than its genetics or history.

    This probably should be in the Open Thread, but it's been taken over by Sikh nationalist Twitter-spam so I'd rather stay here.

    Mean math PISA of 532 – highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don’t bother with official marriage – 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.

    The latter parts do indeed make them sound fairly sociologically “Nordic”, you’re correct about that. It would be interesting to contrast those numbers with other provinces. Is Quebec an outlier in out-of-wedlock births for instance? What about religiosity (or lack thereof)? It would also be interesting to know from where in France most of them came from (north or south).

    But what surprised me even more than Quebec was the relatively poor performance of British Columbia (B.C.). Vancouver has far fewer blacks and other low-performing groups than Toronto or Montreal. It is something like 1/3rd Chinese and many of them are cognitive elites of China (often corrupt officials or just well-to-do people buying property overseas and then moving). There is also a small but rapidly growing Indian elite population. Toronto has lots of smart minorities but it also has a non-trivial Jamaican and Caribbean black population. Montreal has plenty of arabs and middle-easterners. So in that sense, B.C. should not be performing that poorly unless their rural areas are performing massively worse than the rural areas of Ontario, for which I would be at a loss to explain. One would also need to know what share the native tribes constitute of the testing population.

    • Replies: @jeppo
    It would also be interesting to know from where in France most of them [Quebecois] came from (north or south).

    Almost entirely from the north and west of France, mainly from Normandy, Brittany and the Ile-de-France. Here are the 2018 mean scores by province:

    Alberta: 526
    Quebec: 524
    Ontario: 519
    British Columbia: 513
    Nova Scotia: 506
    Newfoundland: 502
    Prince Edward Island: 497
    Saskatchewan: 495
    New Brunswick: 491
    Manitoba: 488

    But what surprised me even more than Quebec was the relatively poor performance of British Columbia (B.C.).

    BC didn't do too bad, with the same mean score as Poland. But yeah, I guess it is relatively low considering BC's large, high IQ East Asian population. This can probably be explained by the mild West Coast climate that attracts a lot of low IQ dregs from the rest of the country, in the same way that Florida attracts lots of American dummies.

    Alberta scored very well (higher than Estonia!). As Canada's most conservative and economically dynamic province, it tends to attract a lot of high achievers. The slackers tend to move on to much more laid-back BC.

    It is surprising that Quebec did better than Ontario, but that's mass Third World immigration for you. Toronto seems to be getting dumber by the second. I would imagine that multicultural Montreal did far worse than lily-white and very bright Quebec City.

    The Atlantic provinces (NS, NB, PEI and Nfld.) didn't do very well despite their glorious lack of diversity. Economic policies that favour Central Canada over the outlying regions have led to a brain drain that's been going on for more than 130 years, and those low scores are the dysgenic result.

    Manitoba and Saskatchewan, though with generally high-quality white populations (lots of Germans and Scandinavians), are dragged down by their massive aboriginal populations, both around 20%.

    PISA didn't break down the northern territories (Yukon, NWT and Nunavut), but with an overall aboriginal majority of about 60%, I'd guess that their mean scores would be in the low 400s, at best.
  166. Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?
     
    More evidence that these results are (1) highly variable, and (2) weakly correlated with raw intelligence.
    , @songbird

    what the hell is happening in Iceland?
     
    With a small population, I think one would expect the results to have more an element of a random walk.

    Of course, if we are talking 15-20 years, there are probably slight dysgenic trends. I don't expect the PISA would be sensitive to pick these up, though I could be wrong.
    , @TelfoedJohn
    Alcohol was mainly prohibited until 1989. The Icelandic decline is for the same reason as the Native American decline.
  167. @Mr. XYZ
    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews--and they don't appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.

    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews–and they don’t appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.

    If my memory does not deceive me – out of about 20 Nobel prizes received by Italian scientists, 5 prizes were received by Italian Sephardic Jews. In Holland (in the past) Sephardic Jews constituted the Jewish elite over Ashkenazi Jews.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I thought that Italian Jews were considered their own group.

    I don't know how accurate this is in a genetic sense. I believe the Ashkenazim have some Italian DNA, and I would guess it comes via these Italian Jews. But, for some reason or other, perhaps their numbers, perhaps because they don't have as refined a cv of victimhood, Italian Jews seem little discussed.

    One wonders what their average IQ might be and other particulars.
  168. @melanf

    By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm.
     
    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don't know).

    A single Slavic phenotype does not exist because the Slavs have different origins. Southern Russians are genetically identical to poles, Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs, but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
    The southern Slavs also form separate genetic clusters

    Southern Russians are genetically identical to Poles

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn’t we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.

    Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs

    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians. Do you even consider yourself slavic?

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.

    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.

    • Replies: @melanf

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA.
     
    I used to be very skeptical about the PISA tests, but after completely absurd data about Scotland (compared to Portugal, Poland, etc.), I was completely disappointed in these tests, as they do not give any reliable information.

    But it is obvious that if the southern Russians (as well as Ukrainians and Belarusians) are genetically almost indistinguishable from the poles, then in the same conditions the results of their tests will be the same as the results of the tests of the poles.

    I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians
     
    Yes, but the difference in the results of tests of Northern and southern Russians is small, and it is easy to explain by the greater urbanization of the North, as well as a greater proportion of the non-European low IQ population in the South

    If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter.
     
    I think the Polish school is better suited to the Pisa tests. Russians and Poles, however, do not make much difference in test if you take into account the large number of non-Russian population with low IQ in Russia.

    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians
     
    This is a very strange interpretation of what I write
    , @melanf


    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
     
    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.
     
    A strange idea, given that the greatest patriots of Russia (in the wars against Sweden), were the Russian Karelians. Here in the picture the Karelian fleet returns after the destruction of the capital of Sweden

    https://pp.userapi.com/c850016/v850016311/a91bf/qDmkBfQQQ08.jpg

    About "incorporation into a greater Nordic Federation" I can tell how it happened. Sweden in the early 17th century (taking advantage of the Polish invasion) seized these lands. During their century-long rule, about 90% of the local population (approximately 80,000 people) fled from Swedish rule to the Russian Tsardom, and the emptied lands were settled by Finns-Germans-Swedish Lutherans. When in 1701 the troops of Peter the Great came to these lands 90% of the population here were Lutheran colonists. As you can imagine, such incorporation does not seem to me a good prospect.

    , @Swedish Family

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn’t we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.
     

    Promise not to harp on about this, but again, your argument here assumes (1) a very high degree of precision in the test results, and (2) that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence. As I have written before, these assumptions are both highly questionable.
  169. @Thulean Friend

    Southern Russians are genetically identical to Poles
     
    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn't we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.


    Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs
     
    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians. Do you even consider yourself slavic?

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
     
    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA.

    I used to be very skeptical about the PISA tests, but after completely absurd data about Scotland (compared to Portugal, Poland, etc.), I was completely disappointed in these tests, as they do not give any reliable information.

    But it is obvious that if the southern Russians (as well as Ukrainians and Belarusians) are genetically almost indistinguishable from the poles, then in the same conditions the results of their tests will be the same as the results of the tests of the poles.

    I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians

    Yes, but the difference in the results of tests of Northern and southern Russians is small, and it is easy to explain by the greater urbanization of the North, as well as a greater proportion of the non-European low IQ population in the South

    If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter.

    I think the Polish school is better suited to the Pisa tests. Russians and Poles, however, do not make much difference in test if you take into account the large number of non-Russian population with low IQ in Russia.

    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians

    This is a very strange interpretation of what I write

  170. @Thulean Friend

    Southern Russians are genetically identical to Poles
     
    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn't we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.


    Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs
     
    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians. Do you even consider yourself slavic?

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
     
    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.

    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.

    A strange idea, given that the greatest patriots of Russia (in the wars against Sweden), were the Russian Karelians. Here in the picture the Karelian fleet returns after the destruction of the capital of Sweden

    About “incorporation into a greater Nordic Federation” I can tell how it happened. Sweden in the early 17th century (taking advantage of the Polish invasion) seized these lands. During their century-long rule, about 90% of the local population (approximately 80,000 people) fled from Swedish rule to the Russian Tsardom, and the emptied lands were settled by Finns-Germans-Swedish Lutherans. When in 1701 the troops of Peter the Great came to these lands 90% of the population here were Lutheran colonists. As you can imagine, such incorporation does not seem to me a good prospect.

  171. @Agathoklis
    That is largely correct. It is actually remarkable how little North African genes are found in southern Europeans today.

    Of course there was scant contribution from outside of Europe all dna/ pca analysis shows that and alongside the fact that the Islamic conquests were not folk movements but military conquests which often left the natives largely untouched in demographic terms but also after Europeans drove out the invaders they carried out ethnic cleansing to one degree or another and then underwent varying demographics expansions. Genetic differences with Europeans are negligible and differences are down to differing make up inherited from WHG/ EEF and IE many thousands of years ago.
    Talk of Mongols Huns Moors etc etc contributing to Europeans is nonsense and as such is irrelevant.

  172. @melanf

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap.
     
    When you were asked to look at a photo and choose a nationality (out of 5 options) you managed to give three wrong answers (that is, your result was worse than random)


    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine - where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sait-4-440x294.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/obloga-3-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/sait-i-meta-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sait-1-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/sait-2-300x200.jpg

    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine – where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let’s say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it’s a close call). #4 could be either (it’s pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.

    • Replies: @melanf

    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let’s say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.
     
    That's exactly what I was trying to explain to the AP. About the group comparison, you are absolutely right - in this case, weak differences become noticeable.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it’s a close call). #4 could be either (it’s pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.
     
    Photos are taken from the site where expats living in St. Petersburg are interviewed.
    https://paperpaper.ru/tag/expat/
    I posted all the Finns and Swedes (that is, it is random portraits without prior selection in appearance)

    1 and 5 photo-Swedes, the rest Finns.

    On the question of defining ethnicity by face-number 5 is the Swedish ballerina
    Ella Persson. Here are her instagram portraits (Sam Coulton close your eyes)

    https://d.radikal.ru/d00/1911/f2/4d82c3b9b796.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d35/1911/3d/66d672303ebc.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a22/1911/52/f0b8a686b395.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d03/1911/fa/39716a0bdd3a.png

    One fan of determining nationality by the shape of the skull was able to successfully determine where there is a native of Sweden, German, Romanian and Turkish
  173. @melanf

    By contrast, if you look at the president of Russia or Poland both have very round, slavic faces. This is also the most common slavic phenotype I see here in Stockholm.
     
    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don't know).

    A single Slavic phenotype does not exist because the Slavs have different origins. Southern Russians are genetically identical to poles, Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs, but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
    The southern Slavs also form separate genetic clusters

    Putin is believed to be from Karel, that is, he genetically Finn (is it true or urban legend I don’t know).

    Can’t find any links now, but someone once named the ethnic group he is said to hail from — some tiny Finno-Ugric people, as I remember — and the likeness was striking.

  174. @melanf

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap.
     
    When you were asked to look at a photo and choose a nationality (out of 5 options) you managed to give three wrong answers (that is, your result was worse than random)


    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine - where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sait-4-440x294.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/obloga-3-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/sait-i-meta-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sait-1-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/sait-2-300x200.jpg

    1. Swedish, if I had to guess, though doesn’t look much like them. But certainly not Finnish.
    2. Finnish af
    3. Finnish
    4. Interesting breed, but I’d still say Finnish.
    5. Norwegian! Swedes who sort of look like Slavs.

    • Agree: melanf
  175. @Thulean Friend
    Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    https://i.imgur.com/6qRrb7m.jpg

    Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    More evidence that these results are (1) highly variable, and (2) weakly correlated with raw intelligence.

  176. @Thulean Friend

    Southern Russians are genetically identical to Poles
     
    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn't we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.


    Northern Russians are genetically far from any Slavs
     
    One of these days you have to explain your barely-disguised disdain for most Russians. Do you even consider yourself slavic?

    but genetically close to the Finns, Balts and Swedes/Norwegians.
     
    We can at least agree on that Peter the Great should have lost to Karl XII and that Karelia and parts of the areas around SPB should have been incorporated into a greater Nordic Federation on a permanent basis.

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn’t we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.

    Promise not to harp on about this, but again, your argument here assumes (1) a very high degree of precision in the test results, and (2) that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence. As I have written before, these assumptions are both highly questionable.

    • LOL: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    very high degree of precision in the test results
     
    Meaningless statement in of itself. It's a question of degrees. A 50 point difference, which is what separates Ukraine and Poland, is substantial. A 5 point difference is within the margin of error.

    that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence
     
    And I have written before that PISA is heavily g-loaded (0.8). Directly related would mean a correlation of 1.0. If you want to strawman, at least do it with more effort.
  177. @Swedish Family

    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine – where the Finns, and where the Swedes.
     
    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let's say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it's a close call). #4 could be either (it's pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.

    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let’s say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.

    That’s exactly what I was trying to explain to the AP. About the group comparison, you are absolutely right – in this case, weak differences become noticeable.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it’s a close call). #4 could be either (it’s pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.

    Photos are taken from the site where expats living in St. Petersburg are interviewed.
    https://paperpaper.ru/tag/expat/
    I posted all the Finns and Swedes (that is, it is random portraits without prior selection in appearance)

    1 and 5 photo-Swedes, the rest Finns.

    On the question of defining ethnicity by face-number 5 is the Swedish ballerina
    Ella Persson. Here are her instagram portraits (Sam Coulton close your eyes)

    One fan of determining nationality by the shape of the skull was able to successfully determine where there is a native of Sweden, German, Romanian and Turkish

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    The top photo clearly makes her look like any native Swedish girl but if you had just showed me just the 3rd photo and especially the 4th, I would have said she'd looked more french. You don't even see her natural eye color in the 4th and she comes across as much darker, especially her hair. In the top photo her clear blue eyes are much more visible and her hair color has that melange light brown which a lot of girls have here. All this drives home the point that photo composition and/or make-up is very important.

    As for the differences between Finns and Swedes, I take an intermediate position between you and AP. There are some phenotypes in Finland which you don't see in Sweden, people who an almost asiatic look (the word 'Finngolian' wasn't taken out of nothing, though it still mostly a meme) but that is also a very small minority. There are 500K Finns in Sweden, something which many are unaware of. And that's because most Finns look just like most Swedes.

    , @Mikel
    In case you weren't aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.

    You may be right that a Saint Petersbug local would not be able to tell who is a native of the region by their looks. You live there and must know about this much better than me so I won't follow Dmitry's example and lecture you on the matter. But, based on my experience, I agree with Swedish Family's view that in Europe you can usually tell who is a local and who is a stranger by their faces. And, to be honest, my gut feeling, not having ever been there, is that a Krasnodar native visiting rural Karelia would be identified as a stranger by the locals.

    I am not at all fond of posting pictures of people to discuss ethnic matters. It is very easy to cherry-pick them in order to advance any argument and it reminds me of the low-level arguments you find at Stormfront and similar places. But well... these three French Basque folk singers, while having different looks, remind me of the faces I would normally see in my hometown. If I ever saw them there, I would assume they were locals: https://youtu.be/sdPFTGidrjQ

    On the other hand, if I ever met someone like tennis player Rafael Nadal at my hometown's farmer's market, I would know he's a stranger. Even if he was speaking Basque (a most unlikely event, but anyway).

    Whether someone from Northern Europe like you is able to discern these differences I am not able to say. It doesn't matter too much in any case.
  178. @Thulean Friend

    Mean math PISA of 532 – highest in Canada, highest happiness rate of all provinces, above average fertility* (completed fertility rate for the women who are now 40 is 1.75 and projected to climb to 1.8). Non-religious, parents mostly raise their children together but don’t bother with official marriage – 62% are born out of wedlock and 12% live with one parent.
     
    The latter parts do indeed make them sound fairly sociologically "Nordic", you're correct about that. It would be interesting to contrast those numbers with other provinces. Is Quebec an outlier in out-of-wedlock births for instance? What about religiosity (or lack thereof)? It would also be interesting to know from where in France most of them came from (north or south).

    But what surprised me even more than Quebec was the relatively poor performance of British Columbia (B.C.). Vancouver has far fewer blacks and other low-performing groups than Toronto or Montreal. It is something like 1/3rd Chinese and many of them are cognitive elites of China (often corrupt officials or just well-to-do people buying property overseas and then moving). There is also a small but rapidly growing Indian elite population. Toronto has lots of smart minorities but it also has a non-trivial Jamaican and Caribbean black population. Montreal has plenty of arabs and middle-easterners. So in that sense, B.C. should not be performing that poorly unless their rural areas are performing massively worse than the rural areas of Ontario, for which I would be at a loss to explain. One would also need to know what share the native tribes constitute of the testing population.

    It would also be interesting to know from where in France most of them [Quebecois] came from (north or south).

    Almost entirely from the north and west of France, mainly from Normandy, Brittany and the Ile-de-France. Here are the 2018 mean scores by province:

    Alberta: 526
    Quebec: 524
    Ontario: 519
    British Columbia: 513
    Nova Scotia: 506
    Newfoundland: 502
    Prince Edward Island: 497
    Saskatchewan: 495
    New Brunswick: 491
    Manitoba: 488

    But what surprised me even more than Quebec was the relatively poor performance of British Columbia (B.C.).

    BC didn’t do too bad, with the same mean score as Poland. But yeah, I guess it is relatively low considering BC’s large, high IQ East Asian population. This can probably be explained by the mild West Coast climate that attracts a lot of low IQ dregs from the rest of the country, in the same way that Florida attracts lots of American dummies.

    Alberta scored very well (higher than Estonia!). As Canada’s most conservative and economically dynamic province, it tends to attract a lot of high achievers. The slackers tend to move on to much more laid-back BC.

    It is surprising that Quebec did better than Ontario, but that’s mass Third World immigration for you. Toronto seems to be getting dumber by the second. I would imagine that multicultural Montreal did far worse than lily-white and very bright Quebec City.

    The Atlantic provinces (NS, NB, PEI and Nfld.) didn’t do very well despite their glorious lack of diversity. Economic policies that favour Central Canada over the outlying regions have led to a brain drain that’s been going on for more than 130 years, and those low scores are the dysgenic result.

    Manitoba and Saskatchewan, though with generally high-quality white populations (lots of Germans and Scandinavians), are dragged down by their massive aboriginal populations, both around 20%.

    PISA didn’t break down the northern territories (Yukon, NWT and Nunavut), but with an overall aboriginal majority of about 60%, I’d guess that their mean scores would be in the low 400s, at best.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
  179. @melanf

    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let’s say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.
     
    That's exactly what I was trying to explain to the AP. About the group comparison, you are absolutely right - in this case, weak differences become noticeable.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it’s a close call). #4 could be either (it’s pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.
     
    Photos are taken from the site where expats living in St. Petersburg are interviewed.
    https://paperpaper.ru/tag/expat/
    I posted all the Finns and Swedes (that is, it is random portraits without prior selection in appearance)

    1 and 5 photo-Swedes, the rest Finns.

    On the question of defining ethnicity by face-number 5 is the Swedish ballerina
    Ella Persson. Here are her instagram portraits (Sam Coulton close your eyes)

    https://d.radikal.ru/d00/1911/f2/4d82c3b9b796.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d35/1911/3d/66d672303ebc.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a22/1911/52/f0b8a686b395.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d03/1911/fa/39716a0bdd3a.png

    One fan of determining nationality by the shape of the skull was able to successfully determine where there is a native of Sweden, German, Romanian and Turkish

    The top photo clearly makes her look like any native Swedish girl but if you had just showed me just the 3rd photo and especially the 4th, I would have said she’d looked more french. You don’t even see her natural eye color in the 4th and she comes across as much darker, especially her hair. In the top photo her clear blue eyes are much more visible and her hair color has that melange light brown which a lot of girls have here. All this drives home the point that photo composition and/or make-up is very important.

    As for the differences between Finns and Swedes, I take an intermediate position between you and AP. There are some phenotypes in Finland which you don’t see in Sweden, people who an almost asiatic look (the word ‘Finngolian’ wasn’t taken out of nothing, though it still mostly a meme) but that is also a very small minority. There are 500K Finns in Sweden, something which many are unaware of. And that’s because most Finns look just like most Swedes.

  180. @Thulean Friend
    Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    https://i.imgur.com/6qRrb7m.jpg

    what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    With a small population, I think one would expect the results to have more an element of a random walk.

    Of course, if we are talking 15-20 years, there are probably slight dysgenic trends. I don’t expect the PISA would be sensitive to pick these up, though I could be wrong.

  181. @melanf

    The Jews in Spain and Portugal were Sephardic Jews–and they don’t appear to have an IQ advantage like Ashkenazi Jews have.
     
    If my memory does not deceive me - out of about 20 Nobel prizes received by Italian scientists, 5 prizes were received by Italian Sephardic Jews. In Holland (in the past) Sephardic Jews constituted the Jewish elite over Ashkenazi Jews.

    I thought that Italian Jews were considered their own group.

    I don’t know how accurate this is in a genetic sense. I believe the Ashkenazim have some Italian DNA, and I would guess it comes via these Italian Jews. But, for some reason or other, perhaps their numbers, perhaps because they don’t have as refined a cv of victimhood, Italian Jews seem little discussed.

    One wonders what their average IQ might be and other particulars.

    • Replies: @AP

    I believe the Ashkenazim have some Italian DNA, and I would guess it comes via these Italian Jews.
     
    They are about 40% Italian by descent, almost all maternal (that is, their maternal origins are 80% Mediterranean European, mostly Italian with some Greek). However, their Italian descent is from ancient lineages before the Roman Empire fell, and since that time they have not mixed much with other Italians.

    Paternally, Jews are about 80% Semitic. The rest comes from northern Europeans (Germans, Slavs). This may have been not only converts but also infidelity or rape - I suspect not a large number of northern European men married into the Jewish communities.

    The ethnogenesis of Ashkenazi Jews is basically: in Hellenistic and Roman times, Semites who found themselves in Italy took local wives and formed an insular community that stopped largescale mixing with outsiders after c. 400 AD.

    An article on the subject:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-modern-jews-originate-italy
  182. @melanf

    Telling Finns from Swedes one by one is very hit-and-miss. Given this setup, I would expect an accuracy rate of just above random (let’s say 60%). But give us groups of five or more people from the same country and the rate will climb quite a bit.
     
    That's exactly what I was trying to explain to the AP. About the group comparison, you are absolutely right - in this case, weak differences become noticeable.

    Anyway, since you went the trouble to find these photos, I will say that #2 looks most Finnish by far, followed by #1 and #3, who both look more Finnish than Swedish (but it’s a close call). #4 could be either (it’s pretty much a toss-up) and #5 looks neither Finnish nor Swedish.
     
    Photos are taken from the site where expats living in St. Petersburg are interviewed.
    https://paperpaper.ru/tag/expat/
    I posted all the Finns and Swedes (that is, it is random portraits without prior selection in appearance)

    1 and 5 photo-Swedes, the rest Finns.

    On the question of defining ethnicity by face-number 5 is the Swedish ballerina
    Ella Persson. Here are her instagram portraits (Sam Coulton close your eyes)

    https://d.radikal.ru/d00/1911/f2/4d82c3b9b796.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d35/1911/3d/66d672303ebc.png

    https://a.radikal.ru/a22/1911/52/f0b8a686b395.png

    https://d.radikal.ru/d03/1911/fa/39716a0bdd3a.png

    One fan of determining nationality by the shape of the skull was able to successfully determine where there is a native of Sweden, German, Romanian and Turkish

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.

    You may be right that a Saint Petersbug local would not be able to tell who is a native of the region by their looks. You live there and must know about this much better than me so I won’t follow Dmitry’s example and lecture you on the matter. But, based on my experience, I agree with Swedish Family’s view that in Europe you can usually tell who is a local and who is a stranger by their faces. And, to be honest, my gut feeling, not having ever been there, is that a Krasnodar native visiting rural Karelia would be identified as a stranger by the locals.

    I am not at all fond of posting pictures of people to discuss ethnic matters. It is very easy to cherry-pick them in order to advance any argument and it reminds me of the low-level arguments you find at Stormfront and similar places. But well… these three French Basque folk singers, while having different looks, remind me of the faces I would normally see in my hometown. If I ever saw them there, I would assume they were locals:

    On the other hand, if I ever met someone like tennis player Rafael Nadal at my hometown’s farmer’s market, I would know he’s a stranger. Even if he was speaking Basque (a most unlikely event, but anyway).

    Whether someone from Northern Europe like you is able to discern these differences I am not able to say. It doesn’t matter too much in any case.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.
     
    I don't find it so very obvious. He holds a Swedish passport all right, but his face is generically Nordic. The ballerina, on the other hand, looks clearly un-Finnish in that first Instagram photo of hers. Would have called her right away if that were among the original photos.
    , @melanf

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image ...
     
    I know that, of course, but I assume there's a high-trust society here on Carlin's blog.
  183. @Swedish Family

    Poles do about as well as Danes, Finns or Norwegians (native) on PISA. If what you say is true, wouldn’t we see southern russians score in similar ranges? I was under the impression that southern russians did worse than northern russians academically. Extending this further, it would mean northern russians ≈ native Dutch if this theory holds. Is that tenable?

    AP said that southern russians = ukrainians (more or less). If we extend that to poles then you would have to explain why the former two do significantly worse than the latter. Money/resources could be one reason in Ukraine, because they are still quite poor, but Russia is rich enough that spending extra will not meaningfully move scores.
     

    Promise not to harp on about this, but again, your argument here assumes (1) a very high degree of precision in the test results, and (2) that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence. As I have written before, these assumptions are both highly questionable.

    very high degree of precision in the test results

    Meaningless statement in of itself. It’s a question of degrees. A 50 point difference, which is what separates Ukraine and Poland, is substantial. A 5 point difference is within the margin of error.

    that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence

    And I have written before that PISA is heavily g-loaded (0.8). Directly related would mean a correlation of 1.0. If you want to strawman, at least do it with more effort.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Meaningless statement in of itself. It’s a question of degrees. A 50 point difference, which is what separates Ukraine and Poland, is substantial. A 5 point difference is within the margin of error.
     
    Yes, of course. I mean differences in the single digits or low tens.

    And I have written before that PISA is heavily g-loaded (0.8). Directly related would mean a correlation of 1.0. If you want to strawman, at least do it with more effort.
     
    I disagree that the wording directly related suggests perfect correlation. It does however suggest the absence of intermediary or confounding variables.

    Also note that a factor loading of 0.8 still leaves 36% of the variance in PISA results unaccounted for, which again supports the argument that people shouldn't obsess over minute differences in test scores.
  184. @Mikel
    In case you weren't aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.

    You may be right that a Saint Petersbug local would not be able to tell who is a native of the region by their looks. You live there and must know about this much better than me so I won't follow Dmitry's example and lecture you on the matter. But, based on my experience, I agree with Swedish Family's view that in Europe you can usually tell who is a local and who is a stranger by their faces. And, to be honest, my gut feeling, not having ever been there, is that a Krasnodar native visiting rural Karelia would be identified as a stranger by the locals.

    I am not at all fond of posting pictures of people to discuss ethnic matters. It is very easy to cherry-pick them in order to advance any argument and it reminds me of the low-level arguments you find at Stormfront and similar places. But well... these three French Basque folk singers, while having different looks, remind me of the faces I would normally see in my hometown. If I ever saw them there, I would assume they were locals: https://youtu.be/sdPFTGidrjQ

    On the other hand, if I ever met someone like tennis player Rafael Nadal at my hometown's farmer's market, I would know he's a stranger. Even if he was speaking Basque (a most unlikely event, but anyway).

    Whether someone from Northern Europe like you is able to discern these differences I am not able to say. It doesn't matter too much in any case.

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.

    I don’t find it so very obvious. He holds a Swedish passport all right, but his face is generically Nordic. The ballerina, on the other hand, looks clearly un-Finnish in that first Instagram photo of hers. Would have called her right away if that were among the original photos.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    I was just trying to warn Melanf that his ethnic identification tests through pictures taken from the internet are easier to crack than he perhaps thinks. But you are right: this chap has a Swedish/Germanic last name and the article says that he is Swedish so it's reasonable to assume that he is indeed Swedish. But we don't really know anything about his ancestry and I am generally unable to distinguish a Finn from a Swede. I would imagine Finns having a higher frequency of brachycephaly and other Eastern/Uralic traits but the ones I have met in real life were indistinguishable from any other Nordic person.
  185. @Mikel

    What is the difference when you cross the border from Miranda de Ebro to Vitoria?
     
    I explained this to you a couple of months ago when you asked me but it looks like you refuse to understand or believe the answer.

    What is the difference when you cross the border from one East London borough to the neighboring one? Surely all native Britons must be a mixture of South Asians, West Indians and Europeans...

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn't make sense for the issue at hand. The demographic history of that city is not difficult to research, there is nothing controversial about it at all. There is a reason why we in Gipuzkoa used to call Vitorians "Manolos", even though a good half of the population in my small industrial hometown was also from elsewhere in Spain https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitoria#Demograf%C3%ADa

    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I'm not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can't get this point across to you.

    Regarding different genetic studies, I'm OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins. But what I said above is definitely the consensus opinion at the moment. Ancestry.com geneticists believe that they can distinguish a distinct Basque group (they can't distinguish Russians from Ukrainians or Belarussians though)*

    Adult Basques don't usually have blond hair, by the way. If that is the trait you were paying attention to, it was a wrong clue.

    * On the other hand, ancestry.com does include Western Ukrainians in a separate cluster that includes parts of the Balkans: Northwestern Romania and Northern Serbia, hope AP is not reading this.

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn’t make sense for the issue at hand.

    Ok so you said before 1/4 of people in Vitoria are Basques.

    Then if you look at a video of Vitoria – you know which people are Basque and which are immigrants from La Rioja, Cantabria, Burgos, etc?

    I’m not arguing with you, but I am sceptical about this being something racial (i.e. visible externally), rather than cultural. It’s interesting if people from Spain could notice. For me, they look an identical mix (i.e. a general Northern Spanish race).

    Here is Vitoria (which is 1/4 Basque)

    Here must be real Basques of Gernika protesting about ETA

    Here is non-Basque Burgos as a comparison.

    For my eyes, I could not see a difference in the people.

    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I’m not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can’t get this point across to you.

    Obviously not. If you want to learn about a country you interested about, you need to visit, see with your eyes, try to learn its language.

    Peoples’ opinions on the internet are not a reliable source, although they are entertaining to read. E.g. this is why I resistant to listening on questions like whether Basques look different to Northern Spanish, unless someone can show it to me with my eyes.

    I’m OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins.

    Personally, I am a fan of Pais Vasco, – and of preservation of small and mysterious nationalities in general.

    There was also an article in El Pais I read, arguing Basques could be anciently tracked to Catalonia.
    https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/09/07/ciencia/1441646688_571819.html

    • Replies: @Mikel

    Here must be real Basques of Gernika protesting about ETA
     
    Wrong assumptions again. A way many people with roots in Spain try to blend in and become more accepted in the Basque Country is by embracing the nationalist cause and becoming more radical than anyone else. The number of non-ethnic Basques in the ranks of ETA is remarkably high. But among the people attending that rally I do see some familiar Basque features.

    I am sceptical about this being something racial (i.e. visible externally), rather than cultural
     
    Based on the many posts I've read from you, I think that you're probably a likable guy. But you're becoming a bit annoying in this thread. Imagine that I had once traveled by train to some Russian cities and had a couple of Russian workmates of unknown background. And that with that limited knowledge about Russia I claimed that I am unable to see any difference between Russians and Central Asians. That people from both origins overlap in their looks and any difference anyone is able to notice between both groups must be cultural rather than genetic... I think that some people here would not be very appreciative of my comments.

    I am also a rather benevolent guy and I'm not going to take it very personally. I think that I understand where your opinions come from and they are in fact rooted in a sad reality. Ethnic Basques are a quickly disappearing phenomenon. A minority in their own country, they are inevitably mixing themselves with the newcomers and it's increasingly hard to find them nowadays outside of rural areas in the Basque heartland. This mixing used to be frowned upon but, apart from being politically incorrect, there's no much room left for monoethnic marriages in such a small country.

    This doesn't change the facts that, as a native, I am trying to explain tom you, though. Every Basque town has a weekly or bi-weekly farmer's market where farmers from the area (invariably ethnic Basques) sell their local produce. When I was a kid these Basque farmers would address you in either Basque or Spanish based purely on your looks. If a Spaniard tried to communicate with them in Basque they would speak as fast as possible in the local dialect until the Spaniard, unable to understand them, gave up and was forced to switch to Spanish. A bit cruel but this was widespread behavior in all Spanish Basque areas. I guess it takes some cruelty to preserve your language and culture through millennia. I'm not sure that these customs are kept nowadays.

    There was also an article in El Pais I read, arguing Basques could be anciently tracked to Catalonia.

     

    I'm not going to whitelist El Pais in my ad-blocker to read that piece but what you say they claim is garbage for anyone familiar not only with modern genetics but also with historical and geographical facts (such as presence of Basque toponymics outside of the current Basque Country). I actually doubt that they claim what you say.

    this is why I resistant to listening on questions like whether Basques look different to Northern Spanish, unless someone can show it to me with my eyes.
     
    I probably shouldn't have done it but I posted above a video of three folk singers with more or less typical looks among ethnic Basques. If you are capable of finding any difference between them and typical Spaniards, good. If not, fine by me too, keep resisting as much as you want.
  186. @Swedish Family

    But between Northern European races, there is not much physical difference – just different distributions or mixes of types.
     
    There is truth in this, but Nothernerns can still discern quite a few "sublooks" among broad categories like "blond hair with blue eyes." Marvin Game, in the video I posted before, looks unmistakably German even though blond hair and blue eyes are common all over northern Europe.

    can still discern quite a few “sublooks” among broad categories like “blond hair with blue eyes

    There are some faces which are frequent in one country, and unfrequent in another.

    But I am sure the majority of peoples’ faces are still found (if with different frequencies) in all Northern European countries, and the difference you perceive is more in the faces’ expression or bodylanguage. (People in different Northern European nationalities have very different expressions in their face, and characteristic movements – and this what we more perceive).

    There’s an internet game, you can try on yourself – think about famous people, who can be siblings across different Northern European nationalities.

    For example, here is Prime Minister of Russia.

    Here is the Minister of Economy (Chancellor) of the UK. (Maybe not so similar, but millions of people in Europe look slightly like Prime Minister of Russia, who has such a common face).

    On the other hand, Putin, even before he had so much plastic surgery, has an uncommon face in Russia, and probably his face looks weird in most countries in the world.

    So it’s not so easy.

    But (before his plastic surgery) perhaps he reminds he could have been a sibling, of an actor of “Gareth” in the BBC’s edition of “The Office”.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    For example, here is Prime Minister of Russia.
     
    Yes, Medvedev could blend in most everywhere in Europe.
  187. @Thulean Friend

    very high degree of precision in the test results
     
    Meaningless statement in of itself. It's a question of degrees. A 50 point difference, which is what separates Ukraine and Poland, is substantial. A 5 point difference is within the margin of error.

    that differences in test results are directly related to differences in raw intelligence
     
    And I have written before that PISA is heavily g-loaded (0.8). Directly related would mean a correlation of 1.0. If you want to strawman, at least do it with more effort.

    Meaningless statement in of itself. It’s a question of degrees. A 50 point difference, which is what separates Ukraine and Poland, is substantial. A 5 point difference is within the margin of error.

    Yes, of course. I mean differences in the single digits or low tens.

    And I have written before that PISA is heavily g-loaded (0.8). Directly related would mean a correlation of 1.0. If you want to strawman, at least do it with more effort.

    I disagree that the wording directly related suggests perfect correlation. It does however suggest the absence of intermediary or confounding variables.

    Also note that a factor loading of 0.8 still leaves 36% of the variance in PISA results unaccounted for, which again supports the argument that people shouldn’t obsess over minute differences in test scores.

  188. @Dmitry

    can still discern quite a few “sublooks” among broad categories like “blond hair with blue eyes
     
    There are some faces which are frequent in one country, and unfrequent in another.

    But I am sure the majority of peoples' faces are still found (if with different frequencies) in all Northern European countries, and the difference you perceive is more in the faces' expression or bodylanguage. (People in different Northern European nationalities have very different expressions in their face, and characteristic movements - and this what we more perceive).

    -

    There's an internet game, you can try on yourself - think about famous people, who can be siblings across different Northern European nationalities.

    For example, here is Prime Minister of Russia.

    https://topspb.tv/768x432/uploaded/news_covers/medzhvedv9s3getr8cxnfkv_ffowItn.jpg

    Here is the Minister of Economy (Chancellor) of the UK. (Maybe not so similar, but millions of people in Europe look slightly like Prime Minister of Russia, who has such a common face).

    https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/cropped_article_image/public/blogs_2015/10/gettyimages-491250934.jpg?itok=3DVNELcQ

    On the other hand, Putin, even before he had so much plastic surgery, has an uncommon face in Russia, and probably his face looks weird in most countries in the world.

    So it's not so easy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHIYeeijYc
    But (before his plastic surgery) perhaps he reminds he could have been a sibling, of an actor of "Gareth" in the BBC's edition of "The Office".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMPC-epMEg

    For example, here is Prime Minister of Russia.

    Yes, Medvedev could blend in most everywhere in Europe.

  189. @Swedish Family

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.
     
    I don't find it so very obvious. He holds a Swedish passport all right, but his face is generically Nordic. The ballerina, on the other hand, looks clearly un-Finnish in that first Instagram photo of hers. Would have called her right away if that were among the original photos.

    I was just trying to warn Melanf that his ethnic identification tests through pictures taken from the internet are easier to crack than he perhaps thinks. But you are right: this chap has a Swedish/Germanic last name and the article says that he is Swedish so it’s reasonable to assume that he is indeed Swedish. But we don’t really know anything about his ancestry and I am generally unable to distinguish a Finn from a Swede. I would imagine Finns having a higher frequency of brachycephaly and other Eastern/Uralic traits but the ones I have met in real life were indistinguishable from any other Nordic person.

  190. @melanf

    It’s just you. There is clearly a Scandinavian vs. Finnic type, although there is some overlap.
     
    When you were asked to look at a photo and choose a nationality (out of 5 options) you managed to give three wrong answers (that is, your result was worse than random)


    However here is a random sample (I can give then link on site where I took these photo ) Finns and Swedes. Sort without a search engine - where the Finns, and where the Swedes.

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sait-4-440x294.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/obloga-3-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/sait-i-meta-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sait-1-300x200.jpg

    https://paperpaper.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/sait-2-300x200.jpg

    Is that when options included Poles, Finns, etc?

    You posted two teams. There were both types in each team but more Nordic people in the Swedish team and vice versa.

  191. @Dmitry

    Whether you want to believe it or not, hardly 25-30% of the inhabitants of Vitoria are ethnic Basques and therefore your comparison doesn’t make sense for the issue at hand.
     
    Ok so you said before 1/4 of people in Vitoria are Basques.

    Then if you look at a video of Vitoria - you know which people are Basque and which are immigrants from La Rioja, Cantabria, Burgos, etc?

    I'm not arguing with you, but I am sceptical about this being something racial (i.e. visible externally), rather than cultural. It's interesting if people from Spain could notice. For me, they look an identical mix (i.e. a general Northern Spanish race).

    Here is Vitoria (which is 1/4 Basque)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcBAHnUc_ac

    Here must be real Basques of Gernika protesting about ETA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERqlDlDhcWM

    Here is non-Basque Burgos as a comparison.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqV6mTHgnXA

    For my eyes, I could not see a difference in the people.


    I used to think that you were a good source of information for Israeli matters but I’m not sure I can hold this opinion anymore if I can’t get this point across to you.
     
    Obviously not. If you want to learn about a country you interested about, you need to visit, see with your eyes, try to learn its language.

    Peoples' opinions on the internet are not a reliable source, although they are entertaining to read. E.g. this is why I resistant to listening on questions like whether Basques look different to Northern Spanish, unless someone can show it to me with my eyes.


    I’m OK with whatever is published in the peer-reviewed literature that helps understand better why we are an isolated group with the only non-Indoeuropean language in Western Europe. We are the first ones to ignore our origins.
     
    Personally, I am a fan of Pais Vasco, - and of preservation of small and mysterious nationalities in general.

    There was also an article in El Pais I read, arguing Basques could be anciently tracked to Catalonia.
    https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/09/07/ciencia/1441646688_571819.html

    Here must be real Basques of Gernika protesting about ETA

    Wrong assumptions again. A way many people with roots in Spain try to blend in and become more accepted in the Basque Country is by embracing the nationalist cause and becoming more radical than anyone else. The number of non-ethnic Basques in the ranks of ETA is remarkably high. But among the people attending that rally I do see some familiar Basque features.

    I am sceptical about this being something racial (i.e. visible externally), rather than cultural

    Based on the many posts I’ve read from you, I think that you’re probably a likable guy. But you’re becoming a bit annoying in this thread. Imagine that I had once traveled by train to some Russian cities and had a couple of Russian workmates of unknown background. And that with that limited knowledge about Russia I claimed that I am unable to see any difference between Russians and Central Asians. That people from both origins overlap in their looks and any difference anyone is able to notice between both groups must be cultural rather than genetic… I think that some people here would not be very appreciative of my comments.

    I am also a rather benevolent guy and I’m not going to take it very personally. I think that I understand where your opinions come from and they are in fact rooted in a sad reality. Ethnic Basques are a quickly disappearing phenomenon. A minority in their own country, they are inevitably mixing themselves with the newcomers and it’s increasingly hard to find them nowadays outside of rural areas in the Basque heartland. This mixing used to be frowned upon but, apart from being politically incorrect, there’s no much room left for monoethnic marriages in such a small country.

    This doesn’t change the facts that, as a native, I am trying to explain tom you, though. Every Basque town has a weekly or bi-weekly farmer’s market where farmers from the area (invariably ethnic Basques) sell their local produce. When I was a kid these Basque farmers would address you in either Basque or Spanish based purely on your looks. If a Spaniard tried to communicate with them in Basque they would speak as fast as possible in the local dialect until the Spaniard, unable to understand them, gave up and was forced to switch to Spanish. A bit cruel but this was widespread behavior in all Spanish Basque areas. I guess it takes some cruelty to preserve your language and culture through millennia. I’m not sure that these customs are kept nowadays.

    There was also an article in El Pais I read, arguing Basques could be anciently tracked to Catalonia.

    I’m not going to whitelist El Pais in my ad-blocker to read that piece but what you say they claim is garbage for anyone familiar not only with modern genetics but also with historical and geographical facts (such as presence of Basque toponymics outside of the current Basque Country). I actually doubt that they claim what you say.

    this is why I resistant to listening on questions like whether Basques look different to Northern Spanish, unless someone can show it to me with my eyes.

    I probably shouldn’t have done it but I posted above a video of three folk singers with more or less typical looks among ethnic Basques. If you are capable of finding any difference between them and typical Spaniards, good. If not, fine by me too, keep resisting as much as you want.

  192. @Mikel
    In case you weren't aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image of your quiz I get this: https://paperpaper.ru/photos/michael-bjorklund/ where it becomes obvious, both from his name and from Google Translate (for those of us with poor Russian reading skills), that he is a Swede.

    You may be right that a Saint Petersbug local would not be able to tell who is a native of the region by their looks. You live there and must know about this much better than me so I won't follow Dmitry's example and lecture you on the matter. But, based on my experience, I agree with Swedish Family's view that in Europe you can usually tell who is a local and who is a stranger by their faces. And, to be honest, my gut feeling, not having ever been there, is that a Krasnodar native visiting rural Karelia would be identified as a stranger by the locals.

    I am not at all fond of posting pictures of people to discuss ethnic matters. It is very easy to cherry-pick them in order to advance any argument and it reminds me of the low-level arguments you find at Stormfront and similar places. But well... these three French Basque folk singers, while having different looks, remind me of the faces I would normally see in my hometown. If I ever saw them there, I would assume they were locals: https://youtu.be/sdPFTGidrjQ

    On the other hand, if I ever met someone like tennis player Rafael Nadal at my hometown's farmer's market, I would know he's a stranger. Even if he was speaking Basque (a most unlikely event, but anyway).

    Whether someone from Northern Europe like you is able to discern these differences I am not able to say. It doesn't matter too much in any case.

    In case you weren’t aware, Google lets you search images. So if I search for example the first image …

    I know that, of course, but I assume there’s a high-trust society here on Carlin’s blog.

  193. @songbird
    I thought that Italian Jews were considered their own group.

    I don't know how accurate this is in a genetic sense. I believe the Ashkenazim have some Italian DNA, and I would guess it comes via these Italian Jews. But, for some reason or other, perhaps their numbers, perhaps because they don't have as refined a cv of victimhood, Italian Jews seem little discussed.

    One wonders what their average IQ might be and other particulars.

    I believe the Ashkenazim have some Italian DNA, and I would guess it comes via these Italian Jews.

    They are about 40% Italian by descent, almost all maternal (that is, their maternal origins are 80% Mediterranean European, mostly Italian with some Greek). However, their Italian descent is from ancient lineages before the Roman Empire fell, and since that time they have not mixed much with other Italians.

    Paternally, Jews are about 80% Semitic. The rest comes from northern Europeans (Germans, Slavs). This may have been not only converts but also infidelity or rape – I suspect not a large number of northern European men married into the Jewish communities.

    The ethnogenesis of Ashkenazi Jews is basically: in Hellenistic and Roman times, Semites who found themselves in Italy took local wives and formed an insular community that stopped largescale mixing with outsiders after c. 400 AD.

    An article on the subject:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-modern-jews-originate-italy

  194. @Thulean Friend
    Speaking of mysteries, what the hell is happening in Iceland?

    https://i.imgur.com/6qRrb7m.jpg

    Alcohol was mainly prohibited until 1989. The Icelandic decline is for the same reason as the Native American decline.

    • Replies: @melanf

    The Icelandic decline is for the same reason as the Native American decline.
     
    What is the reason?
  195. @TelfoedJohn
    Alcohol was mainly prohibited until 1989. The Icelandic decline is for the same reason as the Native American decline.

    The Icelandic decline is for the same reason as the Native American decline.

    What is the reason?

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