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Over the past ~5 years, there have been intermittent debates amongst the HBD crowd as to what will come first.

  • Widespread HBD acceptance, due to the “free market of ideas” leading to a kind of “enlightened” radical centrist utopia in which liberal-left goodie-goodness is anchored in a benign paternalism borne of HBD realism (i.e. what I’d call JayMan World).
  • Neo-Lysenkoist retrenchment, as you need to support the existing belief structure with more and more authoritarianism, whether it comes from established power structures from above or Bioleninist activists from below.

Many of the HBD people were optimists, ironically because they – broadly speaking, the Quillette/Unherd crowd – were what one might term Western supremacists, believers in the power of the “open society” and “enlightenment now” to produce truth and reason.

But it now seems pretty clear that they were wrong. They are nice people but they are herbivores and they are going to get eaten.

The corollary, as I have also often noted, is that future hegemony is now, more and more, exclusively China’s to mess up. I wouldn’t count on it, though, as the one saving grace of these inexplicable bouts of insanity that afflict various major civilizations across history (1917, Cultural Revolution, etc.) tend to inoculate against future ones.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Is there a possibility that the IQ denialists will gradually make concessions to HBD while keeping the parts that matter most to them intact, in the same way that has happened with mainstream Holocaust historians and revisionists?

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  3. Nizny says:

    These HBD-do-gooders are simply insufferable.

    The Atlantic, Quillette, faux-dissidents, “INTELLECTUAL DARK WEB”: Fade into irrelevancy.

    EvolutionistX, hbdchick, JayMan, Cochran: These will be eaten alive.

    RaceRealist: I don’t know what will happen to this guy, probably will lead the Lysenkoists.

    Davidski: The only sane guy.

  4. “the one saving grace of these inexplicable bouts of insanity that afflict various major civilizations across history (1917, Cultural Revolution, etc.) tend to inoculate against future ones.”

    We just need to reach herd immunity…

    (UnHerd immunity?)

  5. neutral says:

    A Lysenko type person would be the best case scenario, a real world planet of the apes is the more likely outcome.

  6. @Kent Nationalist

    A) It is a battle, and it can still be won. The more interesting question for me is: How come there is a battle at all? – why not peace and quiet and scientific progress as usual?

    As for the slow progress: angela Saini and adam Rutherford are now the prominent leaders of IQ-denialism. But their position gets weaker. Whereas at the same time, Charles Murray’s new book gets a review – even in the New Statesman and accepted at least as a player in this field. Robert Plomin’s Blueprint got very good reviews in major German liberal papers (Die Zeit/ GEO Magazine – even in the rather technically oriented but quite popular magazine P.M. – .

    All the news that spread now worldwide about police statistics in the US might have the same corrosive effect.

    B) “What is behind that Curtain?” (Laurie Anderson, Big Science) – that’s what I find myself thinking about more and more. – What is the liberal mainstream running away from, by avoiding the insights of HBD/ et. al. ? In simple terms: Are the IQ-deniers running away from the simple truth, that there is no simple solution for the Balck question in the US? – And that possible solutions via the social state would be very (=extremely) costly?

    • Replies: @utu
    , @anonymous coward
  7. songbird says:

    The idea that GWAS will send the Cathedral packing seems to me very naive – I can’t possibly see how DNA studies will change the incentive structure of globohomo.

    The case for racial differences was already pretty compelling 50 years ago.

    • Replies: @J
  8. utu says:
    @Dieter Kief

    “Are the IQ-deniers running away from the simple truth, that there is no simple solution for the Balck question in the US?”– Even Nazis knew that IQism is toxic because it will lead to the cannibalistic dead end. There are 40 millions of whites in the US who are IQ equivalent to the 40 millions of blacks. The 40 million black question is 40 million white question. If you refuse to deal with the question on the basis of ‘objective’ IQ and HBD scales that would force you to deal with the 40 million of white then you are back to old well tried racism based on the skin color. Be honest and stop wrapping your racism in the veil of pseudo-sciences of HBDism and IQism. Only Jews may benefit from the IQism. If you want to create a society with Jews as designated Brahmins then go ahead and follow the pied pipers like Murrays, Derbyshires, Sailers…and hope that you are not one of the 40 million whites who will be sent to Auschwitz.

    • Troll: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  9. Once intelligence genes are mapped out in the next ~5 years (…)

    The vaguer the definition of a phenomenon, the more numerous measures can be drawn up for it.

    The more measures are there, the easier it is to find spurious correlations.

    This means the genes for ’empathy’ and ’emotional intelligence’ are likely to be ‘mapped out’ first. Sort of below the radar but it’s already happening.

    Where it goes from there, I don’t know; but hijack scenario can’t be ruled out. Also, this just happened for the first time:

    (It’s U.S.; worldwide, intelligence still beats empathy by a large margin)

  10. J says:
    @songbird

    It makes no difference. Thousands deny the most obvious things, like the reality of disease (there is even a religion based on that “science’). Human believe what they want to believe.

  11. China knows the truth about race and IQ. That’s why they’re openly okay with eugenics and how it can improve the human race.

  12. AaronB says:

    Its strange – I must be one of the very few people who simply sees no one to root for in today’s world.

    HBD and IQ are obviously false, and China’s success comes from believing in hard work and not genetic destiny. China is a power on the rise, and only declining powers invent deterministic philosophies like HBD, so I don’t see it gaining traction in China until China also starts to decline. Which will happen sooner than we think, as China has already peaked.

    On the other hand, the Western orthodoxy is also obviously false and extremist and destructive.

    There really are no good options in today’s world. I envy the simple minded people who look to China with hope – I wish I could be so blissfully stupid.

    I look around me and really see no one and nothing to root for. Ron Unz and his commenters would set up a tyranny ten times worse than the current orthodox censorship if only they could, but then the current orthodox censorship is pretty terrible.

    The current cultural system is useful, but then the alternative, like the Unz crowd, would be horrifically worse. They are just the reverse image, not something transcending it.

    There simply is no one at the moment to root for.

    All alternatives today are defined by a very narrow set of ideas that no one seems able to break out of to anything fresh.

    I suppose the only real hope is that the West is declining and breaking up – something new may emerge from that, maybe a Buddhis/Taoist type civilization as China becomes a technology monster.

    Who knows. On the other hand, politics is meaningless, and the point is to see through the world not change, so I think I’ll have another glass of wine. The weather has been delicious lately in NYC.

    • Disagree: Lowe
    • LOL: Korenchkin, Bert
    • Troll: Anonymous (n)
  13. @utu

    Only secular Ashkenazic Jews living in the USA have high IQs, and they will not exist by 2060 owing to their low female fertility and extreme misegenation rate with East Asian, Black and Hispanic females (who have completely different IQ profiles).

    The Orthodox Jews, Sephardic Jews and the Jews in the Levant have truly sub-human IQs of 92 and below. They never went through the selection process that central and eastern European Jews (now mostly living in the USA) went through, leading to the impressive verbal IQ increase. The Jewish IQ meme will be over by this century, as the half-Asian Jewish hybrids get absorbed by gentile white America, leaving behind only an utterly retarded race of inbred welfare recipients in Brooklyn and Israel to carry on the Jewish identity.

    • Thanks: Slimer
    • Replies: @Bert
    , @gate666
  14. Some Guy says:

    I’m sure the left will keep trying to suppress this kind of stuff like they already do, but do they really have a chance of doing anything except delaying the inevitable? If the genetic IQ hierarchy becomes widely accepted in say Eastern Europe, how are they going to claim that hierarchy with Jews and East Asians at the top is just white racism? Or are they somehow going to be able to completely control the inflow of all information to the west?

    • Replies: @Lowe
  15. Lowe says:
    @Some Guy

    Jews already dominate in the United States, and almost nobody realizes it. Most conservatives do not even realize it.

    Most people cannot hold anti-social thoughts in their heads for any length of time. Even those smart enough invariably lack the emotional ability, whatever that is. They will believe what they are told, because that is best for personal survival.

    Of the two outcomes Karlin gives, only the second is possible. There is not going to be rule by HBD-aware paternalism, because our elites do not have that kind of wisdom. There is too much adverse selection of elites, for that to be the case.

    The two actual possibilities are (2) Lysenkoist propaganda and continued decline, for many decades, or (3) a breakdown in federal power leading to some crisis… which MIGHT lead to more HBD-aware government, but might not.

    Our leaders aren’t going to get magically smarter and somehow avoid either of those negative outcomes. Everyone is getting progressively dumber, not smarter, and that includes our dear leaders.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  16. @Lowe

    Jews already dominate in the United States, and almost nobody realizes it. Most conservatives do not even realize it.

    What I find strange is how most white Americans regard Jews as white, yet would mostly not regard a Hispanic even of entirely European descent as white.

    Simply having a Spanish sounding name automatically puts a person into the “non-white” category in the US, I recall this happening to Spaniard Antonio Banderas recently.

  17. utu says:
    @Europe Europa

    “What I find strange is how most white Americans regard Jews as white, yet would mostly not regard a Hispanic even of entirely European descent as white.” – Bravo, you are beginning to think. The skin color is skin deep. What matters is culture. Culture is what people identity with not the skin color. Th French prefer their Algerians to Caucasian Chechens. The Brits prefer their Pakis, Indians and black Caribbeans to white East Europeans. Americans prefer their Blacks to Spanish speaking Spaniards to large extent because they are of Catholic heritage. The HBD is a fantasy that was invented to send you guys on the futile goose chase. The HBDism is also a social construct but an infantile one. There is nothing in it to latch on, to sink your teeth in. At best it may work among the primitives like the prison inmates. Do you really think that cultured and intelligent white person would prefer to have interactions with you rather than with equally cultured and intelligent black person?

    • Troll: Bert
  18. Lowe says:
    @utu

    If you only hung out with very smart members of each race, then you might think HBD is a fantasy. But you’d be badly wrong.

  19. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    There might exist group genetic differences, that could allow for differences in potential average academic ability between different nationalities. It’s not something which is impossible or implausible, although importance of such kind of differences for world affairs should not be exaggerated.

    Of course, explanations from “IQ tests” are like infamous explanation of why opium can make you sleep- it has “dormitative properties”.

    But 20th century anglosaxon idea of creating some universal, cross-cultural “intelligence quotient”, and applying it to explain national differences, was not without historical reasons. The funny thing is how they built the tests using trivial parlour puzzles, which can have no relation to intelligence (although they might test for gullibility).

    Until the middle 20th century at the earliest, for European/American culture, there had been a short time when there was a kind of puzzled but inescapable racial superiority. This was natural result of the fact that conquering the world was so easy for Western Europeans (and settlers), and there was surprise among educated people of the time about how weak and feeble the world outside Europe and their settlers was.

    Such a small, internally still undeveloped country like the UK (Dostoevsky in his diary writes about how 1860s London, is full of begging child prostitutes) – could conquer 1/4 of the world by the early 20th century.

    The world outside Europe, was so weak and feeble, when they encountered post-Enlightenment technological people, that most nationalities did not even try to resist. Nationalities like Zulus who resisted domination, are famous as an exception.

    Now retrospectively this is quite strange and non-repeatable historical period, when domination of the world was so easy for European capitalism. And it seems more like a very lost time because of that.

    Retrospectively, it is amusing, that intellectuals, didn’t perceive that the lack of resistance, was mainly a result of human nature when confronted by more advanced technology.

    It seems people until Jung, were not even thinking about the psychological effects: the existence of post-Enlightenment European technology, destroyed not only the armies, but also the world view of pre-Enlightenment Chinese, Iranians, Hindus, Muslims, etc, and resulted in loss of faith in their leaders, and even their religions.

    Interestingly, now when the situation is reversed – and China is a rising power. Explanations from things like “IQ test” results will “surprisingly” adjust to match the changing geopolitical balance of power. i.e. – “dormitative properties”

    • Agree: utu, AaronB
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    , @Bert
    , @Curle
  20. EldnahYm says:
    @Europe Europa

    What I find strange is how most white Americans regard Jews as white, yet would mostly not regard a Hispanic even of entirely European descent as white.

    The Hispanic category was created by the federal government in response to demands from certain Hispanics. Before that, many Hispanics were regarded as whites. But it depends upon who you’re asking. At one time there were significant numbers of people in the U.S. who had pseudo-Nordicist views(I’m not sure the majority of people ever had these views however). Even today, political expediency often determines how a person is categorized. For the purpose of affirmative action, a person of 100% European background is going to want to be labeled Hispanic. If a Hispanic shoots a black, the media will label them as white if they can get away with it.

    Today, most Hispanics in the U.S. are brown people, so it makes sense to think of them as non-white or mixed. Even many alleged white looking Hispanics turn out to be mixed. Argentinians are mixed with Amerindians, though previously many thought they were pure descendants of Meds.

    But people are not totally unwilling to believe their eyes. A self-identifying Hispanic who looks like a Scandinavian is going to be regarded as white. But most people have never met such a person and think of Hispanics as brownish people. Black Hispanics are always thought of as black.

    In general, I would say white Americans are less aware of racial differences than they used to be. Mixed Hispanics with lighter tones but obviously non-European features are often considered white. I consider this tendency part of the general trend toward of cultural decadence.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  21. Dmitry says:
    @Europe Europa

    not regard a Hispanic even of entirely European descent as white

    There is on YouTube such a video of a American nationalist arguing with a Mexican liberal.

    At 3:45 – he says he wants the Mexico liberal, to leave, because he’s “not European”. (He doesn’t seem to notice the Mexican liberal looks probably more European than him.)

  22. EldnahYm says:
    @utu

    Americans prefer their Blacks to Spanish speaking Spaniards to large extent because they are of Catholic heritage.

    Bullshit. Whites get along with Hispanics better than blacks. Sectarian religious identity is not a salient feature in the U.S. as Protestant-hating Catholics would mislead people. Most blacks attend black churches, leaving almost no cultural interaction with white protestants. The people who care most about sectarian identities are minority groups who want to tear down the majority groups. In a Christian context, that mostly means Catholic descendants of Ellis Islanders, in particular Irish Catholics.

    • Agree: Matra
  23. EldnahYm says:
    @Dmitry

    Why read a book about psychometrics or evaluate empirical evidence when one can simply make up reasons why psychometrics can’t possibly be right.

  24. Bert says:
    @JohnPlywood

    In your hybrid swarm scenario, I would suppose that the alleles responsible for xenophobic antipathy of Ashkenazi towards Caucasians, those selected in Eastern Europe during a millenium, would also become so diluted per genome that perhaps only a handful of pure Ashkenazi would be operating to destroy Western Civilization via SPLC and the like. Nick of time ending to this 150-year historical drama. Which will disappear first? Western Civ or pure Ashkenazis?

  25. Bert says:
    @Dmitry

    You have obviously never been a professor teaching technically demanding subject matter to an ethnically diverse group of students.

  26. Znzn says:
    @EldnahYm

    How mixed are white Argentines and Chilean? Like 20 percent mixed? Or like someone 1/16 mixed, which would basically make them European anyway? White Brazilians are about 80+ percent European, almost 100 percent on the father’s side, and 2/3s on the mother’s side.

  27. @Europe Europa

    There is a lot of confusion here because of how US sociologists made up the term “Hispanic”. The way it is counted in official ethnic statistics is completely different to any other ethnicity. They are not considered white or black, but either or neither. The hispanic portion of any demographic data double counts all the Hispanics usually as white or something else (bi-racial, pacific islander or something). If you add the percentage of Hispanics to the percentage of everything else, you get over 100% because Hispanics exist as some kind of separate double-counted side category. They could be white hispanics, black hispanics, or some kind of nebulously defined neither hispanics.

    So the hispanic category is not really a ‘non-white’ category. Many people may be confused about this or have all sorts of ideas. But a lot of the people counted ‘hispanic’ get double counted as ‘white’ (or something else) at the same time. Since it’s a separate side category being hispanic doesn’t exclude being white or black or anything else for demographic purposes.

    There is all kinds of confusion and political and cultural shenanigans going on with the term ‘hispanic’ because it’s basically made up, and made up in a way that otherwise never even gets tracked – language of origin. You will never see them break out Germanic or Slavic or Francophonic in that way.

    In colloquial parlance, most Americans will use ‘Hispianic’ to mean mestizo Mexican. Maybe in some areas it’s more likely to mean Cuban (Miami) or Puerto Rican (NY?) but otherwise Mexican and/or Guatemalan. But there is all kinds of wiggle room for claiming various things because it’s a BS term made up to have a bunch of nebulous wiggle room in it.

    Mestizo Mexicans are obviously a mixture of white European and Mexican Indian. The Hispanic category makes semi-sense to a lot of Americans because a number of Mexicans aren’t mestizo but can be full blown indian. Mexican Indians are obviously not white, they’re indian (mongoloid not caucasoid). Also various mixtures of mestizo. But even for full blood Mexican indians, their non-spanish speaking grandkids, if they intermarry with whites and are 1/2 or 1/4 Mexican indian, will merge seamlessly into white communities and be white unless they want to be ‘hispanic’ for political purposes. Mestizo Mexicans are further along to being white as soon as they forget how to speak Spanish.

    To the extent there is an actual ethnic substance to the term ‘hispanic’ it is with regard to Mexican Indians. Like I was saying with the confusion, there is controversy and debate over whether Spaniards from Hispania actually qualify as hispanics. Opinions vary.

  28. @utu

    Yeah that’s BS. You appear to be relying on turn of the 19th century ethno-religious opinions to make that claim about today.

    Revealed preference, who do US whites most integrate with? White is red dots, black is blue dots, hispanics are orange dots, asians are green dots.

    Chicago:
    Pittsburg:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/07/pittsburgh-23002.jpg&w=1484&op=resize&opt=1&filter=antialias&t=20170517

    Boston:
    New York:
    LA (this time whites are blue and blacks are green and asians are red):

  29. It’s interesting how the rioting in the US seems to be splitting into WASPs and blacks vs Hispanics/Italians/Catholics.

    The targeting of Conquistador statues and the anger over it from Hispanics/Catholics points to the real divide in American society. WASPs still see America as belonging to themselves as well as black protestants. Both strongly resent Hispanics and other Catholic elements of the US which I think is what the targeting of conquistador statues is about.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Kent Nationalist
  30. utu says:
    @Europe Europa

    “The Slaughter of Cities: Urban Renewal As Ethnic Cleansing”, E. Michael Jones

    “E. Michael Jones proves that urban renewal had more to do with ethnicity than with design or hygiene or blight. It was the last gasp attempt of the WASP ruling class to control a country slipping out of its grasp for demographic reasons. The largely Catholic ethnics were to be driven from their neighborhoods into the suburbs, where they were to be Americanized according to WASP principles. The neighborhoods were to be turned over to sharecroppers from the South or turned into futuristic Bauhaus enclaves for new government elites.”

  31. @Europe Europa

    Where is the evidence that the protestors are WASPs rather than just a mishmash of deracinate whites/Jews? Or that Hispanics are on the other side?There are counterprotestors in non-Catholic areas, like Shnohomish in California.

  32. Svevlad says:

    As Yuri Bezmenov said, the demoralization is irreversible

    On the other hand, when people adopt idiocies, they get exterminated and sent directly to hell. Who will do the pest control, is another question. Probably the Eurasian Space Marines with help of experimental genetically-modified super-Africans (now featuring an average IQ of above 110!)

  33. I wonder if there’ll now be a flood of retractions on IQ research. Make the RationalWiki take that it’s all pseudoscience a post facto reality.

  34. gate666 says:
    @JohnPlywood

    sephardic jews are more intelligent than whites.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  35. @Dieter Kief

    …avoiding the insights of HBD…

    What insights? “Negroes be dumb”? You really think there’s a person on earth who doesn’t already know this?

  36. @anonymous coward

    What insights? “Negroes be dumb”? You really think there’s a person on earth who doesn’t already know this?

    s. comment No. 33 by A K.

  37. The west is finished. Jews/blacks/Muslims/dumb females= obliteration of anything remotely good in America.

  38. @anonymous coward

    Vast numbers of people, probably even the majority, are completely unwilling to admit that blacks behave differently for genetic reasons, even to themselves.

  39. @anonymous coward

    As usual, one may confidently take what AC says and assume the opposite is true.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  40. @Anatoly Karlin

    Is autism a prerequisite for ‘HBD’?

    Look, of course people will deny that Blacks are dumb. The more they’re sure that Blacks are dumb, the more vehemently they will deny.

    The New Age/Gnostic religion of the modern man holds that reality can change if you wish for it, like, extra hard.

    So the most fervent beliefs are the most absurd. Did you not know this? How do you live in society, as if blundering through a haze?

  41. @gate666

    You must be Ilana Mercer on an alt account.

    No, Sephardic Jews are not more intelligent than “whites.” Their IQs are in the low 90s range, or in samples that have Ashkenazic mixture, ~100.

    Only the Ashkenazim have a higher (verbal) IQ than whites.

  42. Curle says:
    @Dmitry

    Are you listening to yourself?

    “Such a small, internally still undeveloped country like the UK (Dostoevsky in his diary writes about how 1860s London, is full of begging child prostitutes) – could conquer 1/4 of the world by the early 20th century.”

    People are finding underage prostitutes on the internet now. Is that proof of underdevelopment?

    “The world outside Europe, was so weak and feeble . . . that most nationalities did not even try to resist.” 1610 – 1870s. Two hundred and fifty years to conquer the North American tribes doesn’t merit a try?

  43. MarkU says:

    I don’t see what the fuss is about, I believe in evolution.

    If every community of human beings in the world, adapted as they are to very diverse environments, turned out to have identical average aptitudes across the board, it would be truly astonishing.

  44. Argent says:

    America just needs to be destroyed. Nothing will get better until America as a political, cultural, and economic entity no longer exists.

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