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Map of QNW+SAS+GEO (IQ tests, international standardized test, and geographic imputation) national IQ on the basis of David Becker’s National IQ dataset v1.3.3.

David Becker has done yeoman work validating Richard Lynn’s datasets to produce the world’s most comprehensive national IQ database (James Thompson has written about this at UR). Sole purpose of this post is to make the core data available in easy to access HTML format, as it only currently seems to be available as a zipped Excel file on Becker’s website. So consider this a reference post.

Latest versions are available at the National IQ dataset page on Becker’s blog, with the current version 1.3.3 dating from June 2019.

Selecting the five most interesting collections of estimates, a brief explanation of each one, by column:

  1. NIQ – national IQ, in this case, the average of QNW and SAS (see below); the national IQ of countries without data are estimated as the mean of their neighboring countries (this is a valid method, e.g. see Gelade 2008). This is probably the single best estimate we have. According to Becker: “QNW+SAS is the best, since it combines weighted estimates of psychometric intelligence measurement with results from international school assessment studies. Therefore, it is a kind of self-validation within this variable.
  2. QNW – last major analysis of David Becker, based on 683 IQ tests from around the world, adjusted for both quality and sample size.
  3. SAS – standardized assessment scores (PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS)
  4. L&V02 – old Lynn & Vanhanen estimates from IQ and the Wealth of Nations (2002), with geographic imputation. This seems to be the most common dataset on the Internet, but it’s also the most outdated/least accurate by now.
  5. L&V12 – updated Lynn & Vanhanen figures from Intelligence: A Unifying Construct for the Social Sciences (2012), again with geographic imputation.

Important note: Results aren’t super-reliable for individual countries that haven’t done many tests, e.g. most small countries outside the First World. E.g., Belarus’ high score (101.6) is based on one test, whereas in PISA 2018, it was 1.5 points below Russia. Obviously, there are no results from North Korea at all, and the geographic imputation for it is almost certainly inaccurate, given its peculiar status. However, this does not invalidate national IQ measurements, for the same reason that estimates of even something as important and ubiquitous as GDP are not useless even though they are also subject to considerable uncertainty. Main purpose of these datasets is to identify global patterns and provide a powerful explanatory variable for national socio-economic success.

Mean world IQ ≈ 86-87, about one standard deviation lower than in the developed OECD countries and China.

Country NIQ QNW SAS L&V02 L&V12
Afghanistan 82.1 83.0 75.0
Albania 81.7 81.7 90.0 82.0
Algeria 76.0 76.0 84.0 84.2
Andorra 95.3 97.0
Angola 75.1 75.1 69.0 71.0
Antigua and Barbuda 70.4 75.0 74.0
Argentina 87.5 95.5 79.4 96.0 92.8
Armenia 88.8 88.8 93.0 93.2
Australia 99.3 99.5 99.0 98.0 99.2
Austria 98.6 98.4 98.8 102.0 99.0
Azerbaijan 84.8 84.8 87.0 84.9
Bahamas, The 86.9 86.9 78.0 84.0
Bahrain 83.6 86.8 80.4 83.0 85.9
Bangladesh 74.4 74.4 81.0 81.0
Barbados 91.7 91.7 78.0 80.0
Belarus 101.6 101.6 96.0 95.0
Belgium 97.6 97.3 97.9 100.0 99.3
Belize 62.5 62.5 83.0 78.8
Benin 70.4 70.4 69.0 71.0
Bermuda 93.2 93.2 90.0
Bhutan 87.8 78.0 78.0
Bolivia 77.3 77.3 85.0 87.0
Bosnia and Herzegovina 88.5 90.7 86.4 83.2
Botswana 69.4 76.1 62.8 72.0 76.9
Brazil 83.4 85.3 81.5 87.0 85.6
Brunei 87.6 92.0 89.0
Bulgaria 91.0 87.1 94.9 93.0 93.3
Burkina Faso 73.8 73.8 67.0 70.0
Burundi 72.2 70.0 72.0
Cabo Verde 60.0 78.0 76.0
Cambodia 99.7 99.7 89.0 92.0
Cameroon 67.8 70.0 64.0
Canada 99.4 97.9 100.9 97.0 100.4
Cayman Islands 82.3
Central African Rep. 63.6 68.0 64.0
Chad 77.8 72.0 66.0
Chile 87.9 89.9 85.9 93.0 89.8
China 103.9 104.7 103.2 100.0 105.8
Colombia 83.0 85.7 80.3 89.0 83.1
Comoros 77.0 79.0 77.0
Congo, D.R. 65.7 65.7 65.0 68.0
Congo 63.0 63.0 73.0 73.0
Cook Islands 84.0 89.0
Costa Rica 88.4 89.1 87.8 91.0 86.0
Cote d’Ivoire 61.0 71.0 71.0
Croatia 95.7 93.7 97.6 90.0 97.8
Cuba 83.8 83.8 85.0 85.0
Cyprus 93.4 95.8 91.0 92.0 91.8
Czechia 94.9 90.6 99.2 97.0 98.9
Denmark 97.9 96.8 99.0 98.0 97.2
Djibouti 60.0 60.0 68.0 75.0
Dominica 66.0 66.0 75.0 67.0
Dominican Republic 82.1 89.2 75.0 84.0 82.0
Ecuador 78.2 78.2 80.0 88.0
Egypt 76.3 86.4 66.2 83.0 82.7
El Salvador 69.6 69.6 84.0 78.0
Equatorial Guinea 59.0 69.0
Eritrea 68.6 68.6 68.0 75.5
Estonia 101.1 99.3 102.9 97.0 99.7
Ethiopia 68.6 68.6 63.0 68.5
Fiji 84.0 84.0 85.0
Finland 100.5 98.0 103.1 97.0 100.9
France 96.9 97.5 96.4 98.0 98.1
Gabon 63.0 66.0 69.0
Gambia, The 60.0 60.0 65.0 62.0
Gaza Strip 77.8 79.8 75.7 84.5
Germany 100.4 101.7 99.2 102.0 98.8
Georgia 84.5 84.5 93.0 86.7
Ghana 61.0 62.0 60.0 71.0 69.7
Greece 90.7 86.4 95.1 92.0 93.2
Greenland 94.7 94.7 91.0
Grenada 79.4 75.0 74.0
Guatemala 61.3 61.3 79.0 79.0
Guinea 60.0 66.0 66.5
Guinea-Bissau 66.0 69.0
Guyana 83.3 84.0 81.0
Haiti 88.6 88.6 72.0 67.0
Honduras 62.2 62.2 84.0 81.0
Hong Kong 105.4 106.1 104.7 107.0 105.7
Hungary 99.2 99.2 99.3 99.0 98.1
Iceland 98.3 100.5 96.0 98.0 98.6
India 76.2 78.8 73.6 81.0 82.2
Indonesia 78.8 79.1 78.5 89.0 85.8
Iran 80.0 78.9 81.1 84.0 85.6
Iraq 89.4 89.4 87.0 87.0
Ireland 95.2 90.0 100.3 93.0 94.9
Israel 92.5 90.6 94.3 94.0 94.6
Italy 94.2 91.5 96.8 102.0 96.1
Jamaica 75.3 75.3 72.0 71.0
Japan 106.4 107.3 105.5 105.0 104.2
Jordan 80.7 77.9 83.4 87.0 87.6
Kazakhstan 88.9 84.3 93.5 93.0 85.0
Kenya 75.2 75.2 72.0 74.5
Kiribati 84.0 84.0 85.0
Korea, North 103.6 104.0 104.6
Korea, South 102.5 97.6 107.3 106.0 104.6
Kuwait 78.6 88.0 69.2 83.0 85.6
Kyrgyzstan 79.1 86.9 71.2 87.0 74.8
Laos 80.1 80.1 89.0 89.0
Latvia 94.8 91.1 98.4 97.0 95.9
Lebanon 81.7 83.4 80.1 86.0 84.6
Lesotho 69.8 72.0 66.5
Liberia 60.0 65.0 68.0
Libya 81.0 81.0 84.0 85.0
Liechtenstein 101.1 101.1 100.3
Lithuania 96.0 94.7 97.2 97.0 94.3
Luxembourg 99.9 99.9 101.0 95.0
Macau 99.8 99.8 99.9
Macedonia 81.9 81.9 93.0 90.5
Madagascar 77.0 79.0 82.0
Malawi 69.7 69.7 71.0 60.1
Malaysia 87.6 86.1 89.1 92.0 91.7
Maldives 80.5 81.0 81.0
Mali 60.0 60.0 69.0 69.5
Malta 91.3 93.7 88.9 95.0 95.3
Mariana Islands 81.4 84.0 81.0
Marshall Islands 84.0 84.0 84.0 84.0
Mauritania 60.0 74.0 74.0
Mauritius 86.6 86.8 86.3 81.0 88.0
Mexico 87.7 90.4 85.0 87.0 87.8
Micronesia 84.0 84.0 84.0
Moldova 90.0 90.0 95.0 92.0
Mongolia 91.0 99.4 82.7 98.0 100.0
Montenegro 85.8 85.8 85.9
Morocco 67.0 68.7 65.3 85.0 82.4
Mozambique 72.5 72.0 69.5
Myanmar 91.2 86.0 85.0
Namibia 66.2 66.2 72.0 70.4
Nepal 60.0 60.0 78.0 78.0
Netherlands 100.8 100.3 101.3 102.0 100.4
Netherlands Antilles 80.0 80.0 87.0
New Caledonia 94.0 85.0
New Zealand 98.9 99.6 98.1 100.0 98.9
Nicaragua 60.2 60.2 84.0 84.0
Niger 70.9 67.0 70.0
Nigeria 67.8 67.8 67.0 71.2
Norway 97.2 99.7 94.8 98.0 97.2
Oman 78.7 83.3 74.1 83.0 84.5
Pakistan 80.1 80.1 81.0 84.0
Panama 79.0 79.0 85.0 80.0
Papua New Guinea 78.8 84.0 83.4
Paraguay 84.6 85.0 84.0
Peru 81.4 85.3 77.5 90.0 84.2
Philippines 81.6 92.3 70.8 86.0 86.1
Poland 96.4 94.7 98.1 99.0 96.1
Portugal 92.8 89.7 96.0 95.0 94.4
Puerto Rico 81.9 81.9 84.0 83.5
Qatar 80.8 85.6 76.0 78.0 80.1
Romania 86.9 83.2 90.7 94.0 91.0
Russia 96.4 93.2 99.6 96.0 96.6
Rwanda 70.2 70.0 76.0
Saint Helena 69.0 86.0
Saint Kitts & Nevis 70.4 74.0
Saint Lucia 73.7 62.0
Saint Vincent & Grenadines 63.4 63.4 71.0
Samoa 84.0 87.0 88.0
Sao Tome and Principe 65.5 59.0 67.0
Saudi Arabia 76.5 78.7 74.2 83.0 79.6
Senegal 60.0 65.0 70.5
Serbia 89.6 87.9 91.4 93.0 90.3
Seychelles 78.8 78.8 81.0 84.4
Sierra Leone 60.0 60.0 64.0 64.0
Singapore 106.2 105.1 107.2 103.0 107.1
Slovakia 96.3 95.3 97.3 96.0 98.0
Slovenia 98.7 98.7 98.6 95.0 97.6
Solomon Islands 84.0 84.0 83.0
Somalia 67.7 67.7 68.0 72.0
South Africa 69.8 79.6 60.0 72.0 71.6
South Sudan 60.1 60.1
Spain 93.9 92.3 95.5 97.0 96.6
Sri Lanka 86.6 86.6 81.0 79.0
Sudan 77.8 77.8 72.0 77.5
Suriname 90.4 89.0 89.0
Swaziland 69.8 72.0 75.4
Sweden 97.0 94.9 99.0 101.0 98.6
Switzerland 99.2 97.3 101.2 101.0 100.2
Syria 74.4 73.0 75.8 87.0 82.0
Taiwan 106.5 108.7 104.3 104.0 104.6
Tajikistan 87.7 87.7 87.0 80.0
Tanzania 74.8 74.8 72.0 73.0
Thailand 89.1 90.3 88.0 91.0 89.9
Timor-Leste 78.8 85.0
Togo 65.1 69.0 70.0
Tonga 84.0 87.0 86.0
Trinidad and Tobago 85.6 85.6 80.0 86.4
Tunisia 79.2 79.2 84.0 85.4
Turkey 87.0 87.1 86.9 90.0 89.4
Turkmenistan 85.5 87.0 80.0
Turks & Caicos Islands 84.2
Uganda 76.5 76.5 73.0 71.7
Ukraine 90.1 88.6 91.5 96.0 94.3
United Arab Emirates 82.1 79.5 84.6 83.0 87.1
United Kingdom 99.2 98.4 100.0 100.0 99.1
United States 97.5 95.9 99.0 98.0 97.5
Uruguay 87.6 87.6 96.0 90.6
Uzbekistan 89.0 89.0 87.0 80.0
Vanuatu 94.0 84.0 84.0
Venezuela 83.1 82.4 83.7 89.0 83.5
Vietnam 89.5 77.8 101.2 96.0 94.0
Virgin Islands 76.7
Yemen 66.1 72.2 60.0 83.0 80.5
Zambia 68.8 77.0 74.0
Zimbabwe 74.0 74.0 66.0 72.1
WORLD 86.2 87.7 88.6 88.0 89.1
 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: IQ, Psychometrics 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. The sect of IQ witnesses must have a field day.

    • Agree: utu
    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  3. If Amerindians are so stupid, how is it they were able to build a complex civilisation while Africans didn’t even get to the plough?

  4. As always, Belarus master race

  5. Uh, yeah, any dataset that has the United States nIQ greater than that of homogenous European nations is total bunk.

    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
  6. @Anonymous (n)

    The US is fill of advanced immigrants

    • Replies: @Anonymous (n)
  7. Completely meaningless. How can any country have an average IQ 60? These people would not know how to wipe their butts.

    Absurd.

  8. Znzn says:

    Why does China have a lower IQ than brain dead Hong Kong protesters?

    • Replies: @Mary Marianne
  9. Znzn says:

    Doesn’t this contradict the East Asians are smarter than Whites, I mean if you count White Austrians, White Dutch, White Italians, White Germans, and Finns their IQ difference with Japs, Chinese, and Koreans is basically only about 2 IQ points, basically negligible, since all the African and Arab youths are dragging the white European IQ averages down, possibly by as much as 3 to 5 IQ points. I mean if you look at European vs Chinese classical music it is hard to argue that East Asians have a meaningful IQ advantage vs. Whites.

  10. @Kent Nationalist

    Actually I think the map isn’t quite right. If you look at the table Nicaragua and Honduras have average IQs of 84 and 81, respectively (considerably higher than Africa). They should be an orange hue but are dark red on the map.

    • Thanks: Kent Nationalist
  11. @Kent Nationalist

    Civilization is just stupid people shoveling shit and stacking blocks for a minority of intelligent people, who are always genetically distinct from the people they rule, and who have a tendency to die out or relocate after tthe waning of their civilization; leaving behind the masses of huddled, confused, ugly, deformed, stupid-looking people who inherit their identity.

    The ruling class of the ancient Mesoamerican societies had a northerly origin. The IQ of Amerindians from North America is far higher than that of those from the equatorial states, for example, the IQ of US Amerindians ranges from 91-105 (Handbook of Intelligence, Robert Sternberg, p. 180).

    • Agree: Slimer, Kratoklastes
  12. Some Guy says:

    I really don’t get what the point of “geographic imputation” is, you don’t gain any information you couldn’t get by eyeballing the neighboring countries, and you lose the information of which countries have actual data on them. A “genetic imputation” based on genetic similarity would make more sense than geography too.

  13. “If Amerindians are so stupid, how is it they were able to build a complex civilisation while Africans didn’t even get to the plough?”

    The Amerindian cultures didn’t build the monuments that are all across Latin America, their ancestors might’ve provided the stoop labor to build them but their design was done by someone much more sophisticated. If they had designed them, we would see some of that spark in Amerindians today, instead we don’t see anything. There’s a lot to be said that there was movement of advanced peoples across the world thousands of years ago that mainstream scientists would rather cut their throats than acknowledge. There are too many similarities between the Americas and the Middle East ruins. Here is a good place to start: http://whiteindians.com/diffusionism/bearded-gods.html

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  14. @Bardon Kaldian

    Completely meaningless. How can any country have an average IQ 60? These people would not know how to wipe their butts.

    IQology is like any religion: either you believe it, or you don’t.

    Absurd.

    Credo quia absurdum.

  15. @John Livingstone

    The shape of the pyramids is dictated by gravity, not human design.

  16. Tor597 says:

    Ouch for Indians. They haven’t even hit 80IQ.

  17. The quality of this data is garbage, period. I’ve no objections to some versions of HBD, but HBD advocates just embarrass themselves when they trot these numbers out for developing countries.

    Apart from the horribly tiny ‘N’ for many countries two problems stand out.

    Unless you’ve actually visited a public school in a 3rd / 4th world country you would have no idea the impossibility of conducting a standardized test and expecting to get some meaningful results that might reflect underlying ‘genetic potential’. Most kids in those places have never seen anything remotely like such a test or ever been subjected to anything resembling ‘teaching’. And yet many HBD fanatics actually think you can hand a Ravens matrix to a 12 year old in rural Bangladesh and get a meaningful outcome.

    The other obvious nonsense is that we’re supposed to believe countries with an average IQ of sub 70 can produce thousands of expatriate grad students studying computer science or electronic engineering, etc – none of whom seem extraordinary for their social class in their home countries. Extreme clustering of high IQ among a tiny number of elite families? That pat answer seems like garbage too – it’s just not the way marriage markets work in most developing countries.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @Some Guy
  18. What is going on in mesoamerica? Much, much lower iq than pretty much anywhere on earth, the very bottom. What gives?

  19. Bermuda and Barbados score shockingly well. Low-mid 90s is very respectable, capable of the maintenance of (and perhaps even creation of) 1rst world standards. I think of these places as just being tourist traps, has anyone who’s been seen evidence of “the good life” there?

    • Replies: @Pericles
  20. martin_2 says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Phillippe Rushton addressed this criticism years ago.

    If a Chinese person has an IQ of 70 then that is pathological and probably because they have something congenitally wrong with them, and their condition will manifest itself in physical signs as well as mental handicap. They will look funny.

    On the other hand there is nothing pathological in a black person having an IQ of 70, or even a bit lower, since 70 is indeed the average IQ of a black African. So they will look normal. Because IQ has various facets they might well be sociable and know how to get along with people. But their shortcoming will be in the comprehension of abstract ideas. And because in everyday life most casual conversation is superficial – we don’t usually get embroiled in discussing metaphysics or epistemology – it is very easy for some people to get the mistaken idea that blacks are equally as intelligent as Chinese.

    It is better to think of blacks as being like 13 year old white children with respect to their cognitive development, not like mentally deficient white adults. they may be able to learn many things that white adults can do, such as drive a car, but tasks involving complex and abstract thought tend to be beyond their capabilities.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @gate666
  21. martin_2 says:
    @Znzn

    Oriental under-achievement is a mystery, and music is a good example of this. They just seem to use the pentatonic scale, and their opera is chronic. Sometimes it sounds like they’re using pots and pans from the kitchen. Indian (dot) music OTOH is much more appealing.

  22. Some of these are tricky. There is no “belgium” worth mentioning. Flandrian IQ versus Brabant IQ is interesting, but “Belgian” IQ is not.
    Extrapolating to America asks more questions than it answers

  23. Annatar says:

    The quality of the data seems to drop off once you move outside the developed world, for example Pakistan is supposed to have an IQ of 80.1 according to both the NIQ & QNW model, Iran is at 80 and 78.9 respectively. Considering how much poorer Pakistan’s economic performance has been since 1950 relative to Iran’s even taking into account oil, it’s impossible to imagine average IQ levels are the same in Iran as Pakistan, not to talk of the fact Iraq’s IQ is put at 89.4, 2/3 of a Std. Deviation higher than Iran but there’s no corollary evidence to support that fact in real life.

    Also data such as Albania having the same IQ as Afghanistan doesn’t really correspond to any other piece of evidence we have, other data such as Morocco having an IQ of 67 – 69 in the NIQ & QNW models is simply not possible to believe if one has been to Morocco or looked at how other countries with an IQ of 70 rank in terms of GDP per capita.

    Overall the trends the data identifies is clear but the issue remains that the quality of IQ data outside the developed world continues to remain very poor and makes IQ comparisons among countries outside of Europe difficult to do.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  24. songbird says:
    @Tor597

    Ouch for Indians. They haven’t even hit 80IQ.

    I doubt that Indian IQ is lower than that of Papa New Guinea. In PNG, the policemen carry around bows and arrows, and it is common for villagers to set up roadblocks and demand money to remove them.

    Probably PNG is imputed. And India is explained by old tests, before it reached a circa 2020-level of development?

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    , @Tor597
  25. utu says:

    Coronavirus created a perfect opportunity to shed off silliness and stupidity and move forward unburden by the sins of youth and enter the adult age. So I was hopeful for Mr. Karlin. Let’s hope that this silly IQ table post is the farewell shot.

  26. Slimer says:

    South Africa’s mean score can’t be right…

  27. @songbird

    This comment reflects how uninformed people in the West are about Papua New Guinea. Jared Diamond visited and he said Papuans were the most intuitively intelligent people he had ever encountered. The police and criminals are armed with modern firearms in Papua New Guinea. Even the backwaters of Papua New Guinea (Bougainville) has produced some of the most feared international scam artists in the world, the most notable being Noah Musingku, whose U-Vistract banking system successfully netted his kingdom one of the largest deposits of copper in Asia, formerly owned by European shareholders. He is fast on tract to become the richest man in the Oceania region.

    http://www.bougainville-copper.eu/noah-musingku.html

    A Papuan Flynn effect would take them to an IQ range of 105-110.

  28. Tor597 says:
    @songbird

    There are a million anecdotal Indian stories I could bring up just as you brought up bow and arrows in PNG.

    Anyone who has been to India can tell you that sub 80IQ fits India.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
  29. @Belarusian Dude

    lmao, a third of the population of the United States is composed of sub 90 IQ NAMs. Whatever “advanced immigrants” is even supposed to mean, it does not so much as budge the needle.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  30. If IQ stats are to be believed, what is essentially being said is that many 95%+ white European nations are no more intelligent than -50% white US.

    So basically many white Europeans are no more intelligent than Hispanics and African-Americans, maybe less so in some cases?

    • Replies: @Exile
    , @Anuxicus
  31. The IQ data show why the science-fictional notion of a competent, technologically advanced global civilization simply cannot happen, given the poor cognitive material we have to work with outside of the functionally intelligent populations.

  32. @Tor597

    From what I remember, the Naxalite rebels, armed with poison-tipped arrows, were beating the police and security forces (presumably armed with more advanced weapons). So I think the comparison reflect favourably on the cannibals.

  33. Pericles says:
    @blank-misgivings

    The other obvious nonsense is that we’re supposed to believe countries with an average IQ of sub 70 can produce thousands of expatriate grad students studying computer science or electronic engineering, etc – none of whom seem extraordinary for their social class in their home countries.

    Which countries do you mean, more precisely?

  34. Exile says:
    @Europe Europa

    The US is 60% White-only with 76% White-admixture. Census Bureau figures.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  35. Other than reply to dozens of comments, it might be worth quoting one particular paragraph once again:

    Important note: Results aren’t super-reliable for individual countries that haven’t done many tests, e.g. most small countries outside the First World. E.g., Belarus’ high score (101.6) is based on one test, whereas in PISA 2018, it was 1.5 points below Russia. Obviously, there are no results from North Korea at all, and the geographic imputation for it is almost certainly inaccurate, given its peculiar status. However, this does not invalidate national IQ measurements, for the same reason that estimates of even something as important and ubiquitous as GDP are not useless even though they are also subject to considerable uncertainty. Main purpose of these datasets is to identify global patterns and provide a powerful explanatory variable for national socio-economic success.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AP
  36. @Annatar

    What is more odd is the extremely low NIQ of Nepal. A huge portion of their population should be in theory mentally retarded and unable to carry out simple tasks like crossing the road on foot. Anyone who has been to Nepal will know that while they are no Japan, they certainly are not only slightly smarter than pygmies of Africa.

    I think the only way it would be possible to get good numbers on NIQ would be if some large body like the UN or World Bank carried out mass testing, right now it is just some guys collecting data from different studies which may not have been carried out to the same standard.

    IQ numbers of ethnically heterogenous countries will also be quite unreliable, if one accepts the thesis that intelligence is substantially inherited AND is caused by underlying genes that vary in populations.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  37. Pericles says:
    @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang

    Bermuda is a well-functioning tax haven with 60-70 thousand inhabitants. Half of them identify as black, but there seems to be no follow-up on what this means. Something like 5-10% (“several thousand”) are expats working in their financial industries. The “average cost of a house is $976,000” (so where do the blacks live?). Tourism is smaller than finance. For Bermuda it doesn’t seem impossible.

    Barbados is more curious. Population of 278,000, where about 90% are ‘afro-caribbeans’. There are also 5% of european stock as well as contingents of indians, chinese, lebanese and jews. The economy depends on light manufacturing, tourism and a bit of offshore finance. Not terrible but doesn’t seem too promising. On the other hand, Eric Holder is an afro-caribbean barbadian. If memory serves, entertainer Rihanna is afro-barbadian too (famously bullied at school for being ‘white’). So their africans are not only hopeless ghetto cases.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  38. Pericles says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    How can any country have an average IQ 60? These people would not know how to wipe their butts.

    Do they wipe their butts?

    One of the jungle IQ tests is whether your village shits in the river upstream or downstream of where you get your water. Apparently not everyone gets this right.

  39. @Just Passing Through

    Thank you for the map on Ethnic Fractionaliztion, good reference material. Though curious about the methodology used.

  40. @JohnPlywood

    I tip my hat to you sir, par excellence.

    • Thanks: JohnPlywood
  41. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Ukraine appears to be based on a single study involving teenagers, with 132 people.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  42. @Kent Nationalist

    Africans had iron metallurgy, Amerindians didn’t have any metalworking at all.

    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_metallurgy_in_Africa)

    Amerindians, however, gave us maize, the tomato, potato, pepper, etc.

    It’s pretty clear where their respective priorities lie.

    Fun fact: Africa has indigenous abstract strategy games. Amerindians are too dumb for anything that cerebral.

    In summary, it’s not that simple.

    But if you want a simplification then consider this: civilization is built in monogamy and sexual continence, not IQ. Amerindians were strict about sexual mores, unlike all the other primitive (including African) people.

  43. @Exile

    60% is still far less white than any European country and still the US maintains an average IQ of 100. How is it that 60% white US outperforms many 95%+ white or even 100% white European countries? Either white Americans are 120 IQ geniuses or many of the Hispanics and blacks in the US are outperforming many white Europeans?

    I guess the other possibility is that a large percentage of the lowest IQ non-white Americans are not even being tested in any quantifiable way and are basically outside of the system and are therefore not being included in the stats, making the US appear to be a higher IQ country than it really is?

  44. @Znzn

    Doesn’t this contradict the East Asians are smarter than Whites, I mean if you count White Austrians, White Dutch, White Italians, White Germans, and Finns their IQ difference with Japs, Chinese, and Koreans is basically only about 2 IQ points, basically negligible, since all the African and Arab youths are dragging the white European IQ averages down, possibly by as much as 3 to 5 IQ points. I mean if you look at European vs Chinese classical music it is hard to argue that East Asians have a meaningful IQ advantage vs. Whites.

    One hypothesis is Schumpeterian economics – mechanics of innovation and entrepreneurship.

    Despite cognitive abilities Northeast Asians traditionally tend to be conformists and rigidly hierarchical which can impede ‘thinking outside the box’.

    The inverse of this is anti-social mavericks and oddballs like Newton low in following rules and ‘agreeableness’ – his feuds with Hooke and Leibniz. Likewise this mentality applies to adventurers, explorers and thrill-seekers.

  45. I hope David Becker produces a separate database containing high quality IQ estimates. A high quality estimate is based on multiple studies and restricts studies to those published after the year 2000 (reducing confounding factor of extremely poor nutrition in third world countries). This criteria might leave available data for estimates for only a few dozen countries (or maybe even fewer) but it will help overcome the distracting comments about poor methodology that dominate reactions to his work.

    A general suggestion for a blog entry. It would be interesting to see geopolitical orientated analysis of IQ differences within groups in big countries. For example, do Uighurs have an IQ about 15 points lower compared to Han? The implications are racial tensions with Uighurs are intractable without a perpetual annual transfer of wealth amounting to at least 0.5% of national GDP to provide a better standard of living for 10 million Uighurs.

    • Replies: @Anuxicus
  46. @Tor597

    Chopstick schadenfreude? LOL.

  47. @martin_2

    This all is bogus. If these figures should possess any meaning at all, they should be universally scaled: meter is meter both in Japan & Argentina.

    The entire IQ religion is superstition based on a few empirical and testable facts: human collectives do differ re various traits, and this has not too much to do with culture or upbringing.

    Intelligence, as defined by textbooks, is by no means as important & decisive in modern societies as IQ religionists would like us to believe. More, I would rather call it TQ (talent quotient) or CQ (capability quotient), than IQ. There are a few CQ, we all know this:

    * CQ for something like mathematics
    * CQ for abstract thinking in words (not eloquence)
    * CQ for ….

    In short, old “multiple intelligences” theory was onto something, although not in the old, dogmatic way. How many capabilities are to be measured- I’d leave it to psychometricians as long as they follow common sense. I’d say 10-15.

    But to “extract” one digit from all those variegated talents is absurd (I don’t buy the factor analysis argument). If one could, say, try to assess AQ (artistic quotient) from areas of literary writing, music, painting, dance, … for a guy who is a genius painter, but abysmally bad in dancing, music,…- we would get a mediocre AQ, a figure which doesn’t tell us anything. The guy is a genius in one area & moron in others.

    We all know that most, virtually all blacks & browns lag with abstract thinking (both numbers & words). We know that high ability in most areas does not reflect on other fields (high powered philosophers dumb about math; genius mathematicians stupid about the universe of words & logic).

    What most of psychometry misses is that what troubles societies most is not IQ. Tyrone is a trouble not because he is dumb (Eskimos are dumb, too). He is bad news because he cannot control himself, has trouble in acquiring elementary morality, is prone to predatory aggression, his conscience & self-examination are low, …

    That’s real problem, not some tests about triangles & numbers.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  48. @anonymous coward

    Africans had iron metallurgy, Amerindians didn’t have any metalworking at all.

    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_metallurgy_in_Africa)

    Meh…Psudo-historiography, similar to other Afro myths. Not different from Piltdown man.

    Africans, sub-Saharan, did not invent or cultivate anything:

    * no domesticated animals
    * no real agriculture
    * no technology (including smelting)
    * no cities
    * no script
    * no roads
    * no abstraction whatsoever
    * no permanent buildings (forget about Zimbabwe wall)
    * ..
    ….

    No nothing.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  49. @anonymous coward

    The metallurgy in Africa is dubious.

    Amerinidian civilisation was clearly vastly more advanced though; the Mayans had writing and huge cities and structures. The best the Africans have is Great Zimbabwe (really an Arab slaving station).

  50. Anuxicus says:
    @Europe Europa

    IQ has more to do with nutrition than genetics. Africa’s low IQ is the result of poor diet, likewise high IQ in Japan can be explained by a high quality diet. The US certainly has no issues with lack of food.

  51. Anuxicus says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    IQ has more to do with nutrition than genetics. Africa’s low IQ is the result of poor diet, likewise high IQ in Japan can be explained by a high quality diet. Uyghurs may have different diet than Chinese.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  52. @Anuxicus

    IQ has more to do with nutrition than genetics. Africa’s low IQ is the result of poor diet, likewise high IQ in Japan can be explained by a high quality diet. The US certainly has no issues with lack of food.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  53. @Pericles

    Bermuda is a territory of the UK, using them as an example of a successful black nation is like using Puerto Rico as an example of a successful Latin American nation.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  54. Why are Ukrainians so much dumber than Belorussians?

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @AP
  55. @Anuxicus

    Obviously wrong since blacks in the US also do terribly on IQ tests (even when reared in white families)

  56. @Bardon Kaldian

    Please Bardon Kaldian use the more tag.

    [MORE]
    Life is stressful enough as is.😧😧😧

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • LOL: Bardon Kaldian
  57. Any chance of a world IQ table of within-country regions, so we could see Shanghai vs Massachsetts vs St Petersburg etc..?

  58. @Znzn

    “I mean if you look at European vs Chinese classical music it is hard to argue that East Asians have a meaningful IQ advantage vs. Whites.”
    Great point! I have often thought it myself. European classical music is so vastly superior to any music from Asia that it’s hard to believe that Asians are our intellectual superiors. I would also add that Gregorian chants are vastly superior to any Asian religious music…in my opinion. Likewise, I think our great authors, Homer, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, etc., are the best in human history. I do not dispute the efficacy of IQ tests, but they are not the only evidence available to us about ethnic IQ’s.

  59. AP says:
    @karl1haushofer

    They aren’t (at least, not to the extent implied in the chart). The Ukrainian sample is limited to a single study, of teenagers (average age 15), with only 132 participants.

  60. Some Guy says:
    @blank-misgivings

    The other obvious nonsense is that we’re supposed to believe countries with an average IQ of sub 70 can produce thousands of expatriate grad students studying computer science or electronic engineering, etc

    If the average IQ is 70, then 1% of the population will have IQs above 105, which is about average for people in college in the west IIRC. With a population of 10 million, such a country would have 100.000 such people.

  61. @Some Guy

    I’ve read tests before where non-white foreign students in the US are below white Americans with only high school in their reading and numerical abilities.

  62. @George F. Held

    You mix cultural achievement with intelligence (whatever this may mean). I’d recommend a very good book, Murray’s work “Human Accomplishment” (http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=735E143F5E5C9A49FD1188DA457E8287). There, on pages 209+, he lists meta-inventions. Most of them are Western.

    • Artistic realism / Greece, circa –500
    • Linear perspective / Italy, circa 1413
    • Artistic abstraction / France, last half of 19C
    • Polyphony / Central France, 11C–13C
    • Drama / Greece, in the century following –534, and India, date unknown
    • The novel / Europe from 1500, culminating in England, 1740–1749
    • Meditation / India, culminating circa –200
    • Logic / Athens, –4C
    • Ethics / China, India, and Greece, –520 to –320
    • Arabic numerals / India, no later than 8C
    • The mathematical proof / Greece, circa –585
    • The calibration of uncertainty / Europe, 1565–1657
    • The secular observation of nature / Greece and China, circa –600
    • The scientific method / Europe, 1589–1687

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  63. neutral says:
    @anonymous coward

    Africans were less advanced than Amerindians, they had no writing system produced and no buildings of any note. If you can’t even achieve those basics then any other civilized system is more advanced than you.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  64. National IQs should give an estimation of the ‘innate’ intelligence of a nation’s population, rather than how educated they are (of course this will not be the optimum intelligence due to factors like malnutrition, but that is another topic). Bearing this in mind, is it not inappropriate to calculate national IQ by averaging scores for IQ tests (QNW) and IQ scores obtained from extrapolating standardised academic test scores (SAS)? After all, the former measures innate intelligence and the latter measures how educated one is.

    For example, countries like Argentina, Botswana, South Korea and Egypt have a big difference between QNW and SAS. South Korea’s NIQ is over-estimated due to ther strong performance on SAS while their performance on QNW is average for European nations. Conversely, the NIQ for Argentina, Botswana and Egypt is under-estimated due to their poor SAS scores.

  65. @Bardon Kaldian

    Meh…Psudo-historiography, similar to other Afro myths.

    I don’t buy it. See below.

    Africans, sub-Saharan, did not invent or cultivate anything

    As far as inventing and cultivating – yes, it’s true. But they’re exceptionally good at expanding and colonizing and ethnic cleansing. They handily beat the Anglo despite overwhelming Anglo advantage in IQ and technology. (It took them over a hundred years, but so what.)

    So I believe the ironworking story, they must have had enough knowledge of metallurgy for making weapons.

  66. @neutral

    Try reading my post to the end:

    But if you want a simplification then consider this: civilization is built in monogamy and sexual continence, not IQ. Amerindians were strict about sexual mores, unlike all the other primitive (including African) people.

    Not all Amerinds were created equal. Only the ones that had a moral police achieved anything of note civilization-wise.

    • Replies: @neutral
  67. Rahan says:

    An average IQ of around 80, within a society with a competent elite and managerial class, can perform everything a 90 IQ or a 100 IQ society, but shoddily, and only up to circa 1960.

    They can reach orbit and develop nukes and make cars and TV sets. They can’t innovate or produce 1st class copies of post 1960 stuff.

    Hence the GloboHomo plan to make the whole world into an identical mix of average 80 IQ brownish people. As long as they keep a few high IQ clusters functioning to produce what they think they need, and the remaining multitudes ara capable of maintaining Sri Lanka levels of civilization–their plan has succeeded.

    At least the first step, before the microchipped posthuman stage.

  68. neutral says:
    @anonymous coward

    Something was created by Amerinds, nothing by Africans, what the make up of the stupid vs non stupid does not change the fact who was more advanced. Sexual mores can play a certain role, but the inability to even create writing is sign of a lack of intelligence to pass a certain threshold of advancement.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  69. @Anuxicus

    My take is it reflects public education quality and availability. At least a major part.

    • Agree: Anuxicus
  70. @Bardon Kaldian

    Absurd truths beat absurd fictions every time.

  71. @Some Guy

    The elite, such as it is, African immigrants tend to come from places like Nigeria, ten or fifteen points above the sub-African average of 70. I’d like to know the Igbo IQ. They fought a war to separate from Nigeria. Correction, Nigeria fought a war to keep the Igbos from separating.

  72. @Tor597

    Ouch for Indians. They haven’t even hit 80IQ.

    Ouch indeed. With just 80 IQ India has

    1. A well developed nuclear energy and nuclear weapons program. First Asian country to operate a nuclear reactor.
    2. A space program which sent probe to Mars in 2013-14 making it The first and only Asian nation to do so (If you consider Russia as European nation). Unfortunately 100+ IQ Japan and China failed to do it till date.
    3. A well developed pharma industry which supplies 1 in 3 pills consumed by United States and 20% of all global generic medicine.
    4. IT industry worth $200 Billion in revenue.
    5. GDP which grew 10 times in last 30 years.

    Imagine what India could do with those extra 20 IQ points /s

  73. BTW Indian poverty has nothing to do with India IQ. China started its economic reforms in 1978, 13 years before India which launched its own economic reforms in 1991.

    Today Indian economy is ~$3 Trillion which China achieved in 2006-07 around 14 years ago. Without much fan following India pretty much did what China did in its first 30 years after economic reforms.

  74. @Bardon Kaldian

    Eskimo IQ is ~90, which is a higher average than a surprising number of European countries. Amazing, given the extremely low quality of life in Canada’s far north. If living standards on Indian reservations and in Inuit settlements were to rise to your level, they would likely have higher IQs than white people. They already have higher performance IQ than whites, indicating a genetic superiority in visual-spatial intelligence. White people average a ~95 IQ with a high standard of living, low mortality rates, ckmparatively low rates of alcoholism and drug abuse, etc. 95 is like the genetic maximum of white people under the best circumstances, while Native Americans are trailing behind them while huffing Freon, committing mass suicide, and eating PCB-contaminated whale meat.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    , @Saxon
  75. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Imagine what India could do with those extra 20 IQ points /s

    Using toilets?

    • LOL: DB Cooper
  76. Pericles says:
    @Europe Europa

    True, but (a) OP asked about Bermuda and (b) Bermuda still seems far more functional than, say, Puerto Rico.

  77. @George F. Held

    To the extent confomity was bred (literally) into Han Chinese, creativity may in the same degree have been unintentially bred out. Also, Europeans have a greater IQ bell curve distribution, and the Chinese curve more resembles women, all hat no brim. Less genius, less creativity, fewer idiots.

  78. @Kent Nationalist

    Using toilets instead of peeing and shitting everywhere (like all animals do) might be a cultural thing. We traveled in Indonesia with a driver and a guide, who stopped to pee wherever the need arose. They drove us to toilets upon request, but clearly perceived using toilets as some kind of meaningless religious ritual peculiar to white people.

  79. @Kent Nationalist

    Using toilets?

    Believe it or not. This is the *exact* reply I expected. In fact I already typed it in my original reply but deleted.

    India launched a program called Swacch Bharat Abhiyan in 2014. In that year just 38.7% of rural households had a toilet. In October 2019 that number rose to 100%.

    Before someone says that numbers are all fake, unlike China, India is a democracy with opposition parties and independent media desperately trying to puncture holes in Govt claims. I have world bank surveys which reported that over 96% are using it. The biggest proof of the pudding is in 2019 elections. The ruling party was voted back with more votes and seats than in 2014. One of the biggest mandate in Independent Indian history.

    (Why does urban India looks dirty and chaotic compared to say China or East Asia? There are sensible answers for that as well for those who are genuinely interested to know)

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  80. I’ll take Jamaica and its 75 IQ over Canada and its allegedly higher IQ. All little Jamaica’s done is gift the world with more good music than any other country, per capita or maybe even in absolute terms. What the hell has Canada given the world? Hockey goons?

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  81. Anuxicus says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Very true. Don’t forget though that IQ is uneven across India with some groups like Parsis being some of the smartest in the world. IQ is tied to things like diet and nutrition, and coastal regions of India have higher IQ due to consumption of fish.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  82. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    China started its economic reforms in 1978, 13 years before India which launched its own economic reforms in 1991.

    China’s head start is a very common notion held by Indians but it’s not true. I’ll take the opportunity to go on a tangent about the Sino-Indian relationship.

    1. India had a tremendous head start on China because of political stability. India after independence did not self destruct like China did after the PRC was founded. During the Great Leap Forward (1958-62), up to 45 million people died in the famine. Political chaos ensued after the Great Leap Forward and the situation did not stabilize until 1978. Extreme lack of nutrition during the chaotic years affected the cognitive development of a large share of the current workforce so the setback of those decades is still felt. In comparison India has been quite stable since independence.

    2. As Karlin has written, Maoism was economic lunacy. China under Maoism before 1978 could expect to achieve 5% of its potential. India operated under a socialist framework that did not completely exclude private enterprise, a mediocre but sane system that could achieve 50% or more of its potential. India in 1978 was much more liberalized than China and China’s liberalization was gradual through the 1980s, beginning with modest steps like closing collectivized farms. Shanghai was not unleashed until 1992. India also undertook liberalization steps before 1991 so 1991 was not the exact starting point for launching reforms. And in any case India was far in advance of China in economic liberalization in 1991.

    3. Since 1991, China has pulled ahead. Again this is in spite of India in 1991 having a head start on reforms and being successful in not crippling itself like China with its self imposed destruction.

    Per capita, 1991
    China: $333
    India: $303

    Per capita, 2019
    China: $10,098
    India: $2,171

    4. Before coronavirus, Indian economic growth had slowed. China slowed too but it’s an upper middle income country so falling GDP is expected. India is a lower middle income country and should still be growing fast. But India’s economic story had lost steam in the 2010s. In addition to growth rates, due to likely Chinese currency appreciation and Indian currency depreciation over the next 20 years, I think Chinese GDP per capita will be 7-8 times higher than India’s by 2040.

    The Indian media and political class widely believe that India will catch up to China in the coming years but based on the past 30 years this is far fetched. Indian competitive behavior towards China is built on extremely wishful thinking about its economic potential and the line of thinking starts with the notion that China has a 13 year head start on India so India is only 13 years behind.

    Here is an example of an Indian strategist counting on the economy to quadruple in under a decade.

    As per the finance minister’s budget speech on Feb 1, India will be a $5 trillion economy in next 5 years and $10 trillion economy in next 8 years.

    https://www.financialexpress.com/budget/indias-defence-budget-in-a-10-trillion-economy/1477189/

    No wonder India since 2009 has moved a lot of troops, equipment, and aircraft to the border with China. Indian strategists believe even in the medium term India will become a peer rival to China and therefore, naturally, Chinese intentions currently are to try to undermine India’s rise to prevent the appearance of another Asian juggernaut. However, Chinese strategists do not believe India will grow very fast and resources are lightly committed to face off with India at the border.

    In contrast, according to PLA expert Dennis Blasko, the PLA…an estimated 40,000 border personnel. But PLA troops are widely dispersed along the 2,520 miles Sino-Indian border, manning static positions near the border and usually patrolling between guard points on foot, on horseback, or in vehicles in groups of ten men or fewer.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-india-help-united-states-against-china

    While I admit China can be seen as also getting ahead of itself in confronting the US in the South China Sea when China only has an economy 2/3 of the US, India’s military stance towards China is more ridiculous when it only has an economy that is 1/5 of the size of China and the gap isn’t going to close. Indian strategists are likely more egotistical than Chinese strategists because 7 out of 8 Indian strategists and national media editors are high caste Hindus. They have a hard time psychologically coping with the notion of being stuck as leaders of a second fiddle nation in Asia. The alternative of acquiescing to a China-led Asian order is just too difficult to bear.

    India, of course, has the option of accepting the widening power differential with China, eschew rivalry, and tailor its policies towards greater accommodation. Such a course would seem largely unthinkable for Delhi. Given its own self-image as a natural leader of the developing world, India will find it hard to settle for a secondary place in a Sino-centric Asian order and an international system where Beijing plays a larger role in setting and enforcing rules.

    But to be fair to India, China has done a poor job in the areas of settlement cited and has a fair share of the blame for the bad relationship.

    This could, however, change if Beijing could tempt India with a reasonable settlement on the boundary, addresses its concerns on Pakistan and cuts some space for the pursuit of India’s own ambitions in Asia.

    http://www.india-seminar.com/2013/641/641_c_raja_mohan.htm

  83. @china-russia-all-the-way

    By the Duke of Qin.

    Question :

    I’m aware that China views India through a racist, condescending lens as a less developed country of darkies. I guess Indian perceptions of China aren’t that flattering as well, especially after the Corona dust will settle.

    Historically though, I’m interested to know why this Chinese perception has taken root, since in my limited understanding cultural exchanges between India and China have always been one sided. Would Chinese society have been poorer without the transmission of the Vedas,. Astronomy, Sanskrit texts, martial arts, philosophy, etc. from India? While undoubtedly always ahead in the physical sciences and technology, I get the impression that the pragmatic Chinese don’t have the philosophical output to match India, I could be wrong.

    Your question has answers in two periods. The second and most recent was during the cold war, shaped by Chinese elite (diplomatic) interaction with their Indian counterparts during this period who came to see Indians as unserious prevaricators. Big talkers and little doers, whether or not you agree with this assumption, it is what drives Chinese elite opinion today.

    The first and older break was an earlier schism in worldview at the dawn of the 20th century when Chinese elites chose to take the path of Darwinian materialism towards national salvation. This meant radical politics and a restructuring of Chinese society towards any ends at any cost as long as it meant material prosperity and power. This left China lurching between fascism and communism. At the same time they came to view simultaneous Indian political trends, another vast nation under Western power, as being embodied by Tagore and Gandhi. That is focused towards traditionalism and eastern metaphysics as a path to revival. This is again may or may not be true but it became the default opinion. This was actually shared by elements of the Chinese elites as well, though the losing faction. The winners of the debate viewed such a policy as childish escapism verging on nihilistic passivity in the face of real threats and India, as the eidolon of such defeated views became tarred by association.

    By the Duke of Qin.

  84. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India’s problem has always been it’s caste system and its elites unwillingness to see lower caste people as fellow Indians. Your comment, although factually correct, comes across as a bit triumphalistic, which seems to be a habit of Indians and which blinds them from the truth that a great percentage of your population lives in squalid conditions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, I think the Green Revolution has been a disaster for India and indeed for much of the Third World, as it has caused extreme dysgenic fertility;

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/fertility-rate-below-replacement-level-for-all-but-hindus-muslims/articleshow/62465588.cms

    Jains are a highly educated and presumably high IQ people, and they have an abysmal fertility rate of 1.2 which is East Asian levels! The population explosion has been bad for living standards. It’s crazy how Indian government officials have still not pushed a one-child or two-child policy, it’s going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.

    Although on perhaps a positive note, India does seem to be witnessing falling fertility rate naturally, the UN Populations division used to say Indian population will overtake China by 2021 but this has now been delayed to 2027.

    I follow world politics, andnit seems Indian politicians like to lie to their populations about India’s strength, right now Indiana’s a GDP just below that of Germany and so has around the same level of economic influence. Things like space missions are ultimately a distraction to convince the Indian upper class masses that they are important, all while the politicians squabble over religious and ethnic nonsense, as is inevitable in a multicultural society like India.

    On a side note, I must ask, does the Indian space programme have affirmative action like other government jobs in India? I remembering reading that its success stems from the fact that it doesn’t operate an affirmative action system, but it would be good if you could confirm this (if you are indeed in the know about these things)

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  85. @china-russia-all-the-way

    India’s main beef (pun intended) with China seems to be the latter’s full support of Pakistan. There is also a notion held in Indian foreign policy circles that China is trying to encircle India using a “string of pearls” by setting up bases in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. I believe PLAN submarines have actually docked in Sri Lankan and Pakistani ports as well, and China provides much assistance to Pakistan in the military and nuclear sphere.

    Perhaps you could tell me more, but why is India not signing up to the BRI? Do you think they will join in the future?

    I think India’s drift towards America is foolish, we know how America discarded Pakistan after using them for decades to contain the Soviet Union, they will do the same to India after containing China. India should shed it’s delusions of becoming a continental power and ingrain itself in the Chinese sphere of influence, Eurasia is quite clearly the next big thing.

  86. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India is a failed state in every which way one cares to measure. The Western MSM has been propping up India for years but talk is cheap and reality is cruel. This world largest democracy thing is getting old and more and more people see India as what it is, a police state.

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/21/police-state-india/

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/09/06/everywhere-is-kashmir-unraveling-weaponized-corporatized-hindustan-in-indias-northeast/

    http://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1320

    http://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1333

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • LOL: 82-IQ H1B Indian
    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  87. I am certainly subjective- because I see this through Western eyes – but to me, China has so many advantages over India that to compare the two is just absurd.

    Basically, China is both a civilization and a people; India is a civilization and a bunch of peoples held together by a glue of a religious culture (Islam being a good unifying element as the enemy). India is something like medieval Europe- not a “real” entity.

    True, Hinduism may keep Indian peoples together ad infinitum. Why should India follow European path of dissolution into nation-states? Yet, if not- India will remain forever bound by religion as an infantile state of a human collective. She simply cannot compete with China, because Chinese are a highly powered secular people with spiritual dimensions, something that gives them vast operative freedom & a wealth of possibilities not available to a primarily religious culture.

    Pakistan is, in that regard, even less of a nation.

    Chinese nationalism is a serious stuff; Indian “nationalism” is, give or take, Hindu “nationalism”. Or we could consider Muslim (or pan-Islamic) “nationalism”. Both Islamic & Hindu primary loyalties are certainly sincere. And they have, in this respect, no future. They rely mostly on birth rates & masses, with scientific rationality peppered here & there. But- this is pre-modern & vulnerable to mass annihilation if powerful secular nations, true nations, decide that the time for the great showdown has come.

    Really powerful forces are with the global secular north, from the US via Europe, Russia to China and Japan. Populous global south (Islam, India, let alone Africa) think they can thrive on biological/demographic numbers alone.

    But- they’re wrong.

    Secular & thriving true nations will- I think, and I may be wrong- through genetic engineering & other means make quantum leap into future power & subjugate or marginalize populous religious masses (if not worse). They’ll ditch democracy, universal humanism & other UN principles, because this entire emotional-moral-legal superstructure won’t fit well with their growth & power. Here, China and, to a lesser extent Russia, have advantage over decadent affluent Europe & north America.

    Of course, if WW3 erupts – this all will turn out to be worthless.

  88. @Just Passing Through

    Jains are a highly educated and presumably high IQ people, and they have an abysmal fertility rate of 1.2 which is East Asian levels! The population explosion has been bad for living standards. It’s crazy how Indian government officials have still not pushed a one-child or two-child policy, it’s going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.

    India as a whole is right now at around replacement level (~2.2 last year I think). Family planning efforts started in 1965 by Govt of India. They pushed for 2 Child policy for a very long time. During 1975-77 emergency, Sanjay Gandhi (Son of PM) tried forcible sterilization. It became a huge issue and his party was thrown out of power in 1977. Since then it was a third rail in Indian politics. But even without force, education and relative prosperity have brought TFR down to replacement levels.

    I follow world politics, and it seems Indian politicians like to lie to their populations about India’s strength, right now Indiana’s a GDP just below that of Germany and so has around the same level of economic influence.

    Indian politics is intensely inward looking. Global standing is not a major election issue. Economic development/ Doles / emotional issues dominate the debate. For every politician talking about Indian influence in the world you have another politician chiding him for day dreaming. (In 2004 elections ruling party campaigned with “India Shining” slogan and opposition countered with “mungerilal ke haseen sapne”/ “foolish day dreaming”. Opposition party won)

    Things like space missions are ultimately a distraction to convince the Indian upper class masses that they are important, all while the politicians squabble over religious and ethnic nonsense, as is inevitable in a multicultural society like India.

    You would be surprised how much support is there across the society for Indian space program. It is not just upper caste obsession. Recently when India tried to land a probe on moon, it was one of the most watched live program in India.

    On a side note, I must ask, does the Indian space programme have affirmative action like other government jobs in India? I remembering reading that its success stems from the fact that it doesn’t operate an affirmative action system, but it would be good if you could confirm this (if you are indeed in the know about these things)

    Yes and no. In the administration and select streams there is reservation(affirmative action). In pure research jobs(category: scientists) it is not there.

  89. @Just Passing Through

    Perhaps you could tell me more, but why is India not signing up to the BRI? Do you think they will join in the future?

    Because India has no intention of becoming a vassal state of China.

    I think India’s drift towards America is foolish, we know how America discarded Pakistan after using them for decades to contain the Soviet Union, they will do the same to India after containing China.

    Indo-US strategic convergence is inevitable. Today India is fifth largest economy in the world. In less than a decade India will be third largest economy in the world. Indo-US ties will not be just about China. Economic ties will also be a huge part. US-pak relationship is a wrong comparison. Indo-US relationship would be similar to US-French relationship. i.e. India will insist on strategic independence while cooperating on most issues.

    India should shed it’s delusions of becoming a continental power and ingrain itself in the Chinese sphere of influence, Eurasia is quite clearly the next big thing.

    Is simply will not happen. In the last 3000 years China had *zero* cultural or religious influence on India. It was purely trading relationship. On the other hand India influenced most of the east asia including China through Buddhism. Take Shaolin Kung-fu. Indian Buddhist monk, BodhiDharma, travelled to China in 5th century & created Shaolin monastry and taught locals Shaolin Kung-fu 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  90. @DB Cooper

    I greatly enjoy the ferocity of your comments, you are a very interesting fellow indeed.

  91. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India will insist on strategic independence while cooperating on most issues.

    Sweet dreams. The Empire never tolerates that. France is a good example: as soon as De Gaulle became too independent, even demanded the return of French gold, the US organized a color revolution against him. After De Gaulle France is ruled by lesser and lesser figures and is becoming more and more obedient vassal of the Empire. India is making the same mistake as Ukraine: backing the losing horse. In sharp contrast to China. When the US was ascending, China forged a partnership with it. Now that the Empire is going down, India is forging a partnership. Maybe that’s why India will never overtake China and will always envy a successful Asian power.

  92. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India will insist on strategic independence while cooperating on most issues.

    Sweet dreams. The Empire never tolerates that. France is a good example: as soon as De Gaulle became too independent, even demanded the return of French gold, the US organized a color revolution against him. After De Gaulle France is ruled by lesser and lesser figures and is becoming more and more obedient vassal of the Empire. India is making the same mistake as Ukraine: backing the losing horse. In sharp contrast to China. When the US was ascending, China forged a partnership with it. Now that the Empire is going down, India is forging a partnership. Maybe that’s why India will never overtake China and will always envy more successful Asian power.

    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  93. @AnonFromTN

    Logically speaking, isn’t it better to forge a relationship with the Empire while it is in decline, with a knowledge that it won’t be able to intervene in the future as it loses power. It was only by sheer competency and a bit of luck that China managed to avoid the Tiananmen coup being successful, and that was when America was at the height of its power.

  94. @Just Passing Through

    From what I have read and understood, that color revolution didn’t work out because PLA was 100% loyal to the CCP. Deng was a living member of the founding members of CCP and PLA.

    As long as he had the stomach to send in the troops to restore order, the coup had zero chance of success. Zero.

    And your other point. I think TN meant that India would get way more benefits from a healthy super power than a waning one. In this India is late by more than 30 years. Unless India can somehow get direct tech transfers from the USA.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  95. Some Guy says:
    @JohnPlywood

    White people average a ~95 IQ with a high standard of living, low mortality rates, ckmparatively low rates of alcoholism and drug abuse, etc. 95 is like the genetic maximum of white people under the best circumstances

    How do you figure that?
    Here’s the 2015 PISA scores for people without immigrant backgrounds converted to IQs:
    All major white countries score above 95 unless you count mixed race Latin American ones as white(and as having high stands of living).

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  96. @Some Guy

    “Hey guys here’s my 2015 PISA conversion chart that differs considerably from every other chart ever posted, why would you believe what the other charts say when this one is clearly better? Slovenian Pride World Wide!!!”

    • Replies: @Some Guy
  97. @Just Passing Through

    @AnonFromTN, @Just Passing Through

    I will try to answer why India will join west instead of China. It is very difficult to condense long and complex ideas into short paragraphs but I will try it. Indian elite have faced 3 different and massive challenges in last 2000 years.

    1. First is Buddhism which threw an intellectual challenge to Hinduism. Most of the Buddhist elite were also converts from Hindu elite. They were so successful that at one time almost 80% of India became Buddhist. Hindu elite fought back thru arguments and debates in open assemblies and reconverted most of today’s India back to Hinduism. Those on the margins who still remained Buddhist were massacred/ converted by Islam.

    2. Second major challenge was entry of Islam into Indian subcontinent. It was brutal. After 200 odd years of fight, Indians settled into an uncomfortable status where they accepted political dominance of Muslim rulers while preserving religion/culture etc. Through out the encounter with Islam, it was always seen as primitive barbarous but politically dominant force. Even while some rulers gave their daughters to Muslim kings in marriage, others defiantly refused it. In 17th century Mughal rule collapsed and native faiths once again started re-conquering the subcontinent.

    3. It is in this juncture Europeans arrived in India. What they saw is a civilization which went close to death and recovering. The encounter with Europeans was unlike anything Indian elite has faced before. Europeans were brutal but they possessed something which Indian elite always worshiped. Knowledge! If European elite were merely brutal, they would have been lumped along with Mughals as barbarian mlecchas with political power over Hindus. But it is the science and technological superiority, ideas of enlightenment etc that broke the shell of Indian elite. For the first time since Buddhism they faced a challenge in intellectual domain.

    It shattered Indian elite and broke them into multiple factions. Major factions are (1) Since I cannot find any suitable word let me use Nehruvians. They believe that Indian civilization is completely outdated and must be mostly discarded. Adopt western ways and treat native civilization as museum piece. (2) Major opponents of this view can be called as “revivalists”. They essentially like S&T of west but not in favor of cultural aspects. They would want modernized Hinduism (more emphasis on religion and less emphasis on caste etc). Even they are not in favor of complete removal of western ideas.

    These are the 2 major warring factions. Even here it is not clear cut black and white division. People do vacillate between above 2 factions. There is a some overlap.
    (3) All others combined would be less than 5% of elite. This section is the one full of cocky ideas & conspiracy theories. If you come across new items about cow dung cure for corona virus, realize that you are dealing with this group.

    This long and roundabout discussion is important to understand why India will not kowtow to China anytime soon. Western world *earned* grudging respect from Indian elite because of their intellectual output over last 500 years. In that last 3000 years of Sino-Indian interaction, China did not earn any such respect. Mere wealth will not cut it. Arab nations have oil riches but India is polite and nice with them but Indian elite do not see them on the same level as they see western nations.

    Respect for knowledge is deeply embedded in Indian civilizational consciousness. In 6th Century, Indian mathematician Varahamihira quoted and earlier astronomer who said, “The Greeks, though barbaric, must be honored since they have shown tremendous interest in our science…..”
    (“mleccha hi yavanah tesu samyak shastram kdamsthitam/ rsivat te ‘p i pujyante kim punar daivavid dvijah” (Brihat-Samhita 2.15))

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  98. Some Guy says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Maybe because this chart excludes people of immigrant background and looks at young people who are more likely to have reached their genetic potential? But let’s look at Becker’s list then:

    US, Russia, Germany, UK, France, all the biggest white countries scores above 95 even with immigrants included.

  99. @Anuxicus

    Indian Vegetarian != Western Vegan

    Indian vegetarians consume large quantities of milk products (Milk, Yogurt, Ghee, Paneer etc) every day. They also eat pigeon pea (dal) and other legumes on a regular basis which is protein rich vegetarian food.

  100. Lin says:

    As a long time observer of India…

    My impression is that Indians have been in a state of deep mental malaise. They want to project the image of india as a rising major power(and recently as an emerging superpower)but when it comes to to planning or implementing such a goal, they’re lost.

    That is focused towards traditionalism and eastern metaphysics as a path to revival
    India’s main beef (pun intended) with China seems to be the latter’s full support of Pakistan

    I’m aware that China views India through a racist, condescending lens as a less developed country of darkies.

    Since hard power is hard to come by, so they try to cultivate ‘soft power’, that’s why they also claim this or that ‘spiritual civilisation’.They did have a certain amount of success during the days of the hippies movement
    Mind you during the 50s,china has been viewing india as a fellow victim of western imperialism. And Pakistan was quite hostile to China then as a recipient of US aids.Hence the slogan of ‘Chini hindi bhai bhai’
    That’s all spoiled after Nehru giving refuge to Dalai Lama and the 1962 Sino-india border war. That’s quite puzzling giving that in fact the chinese govt cheered indian army taking back the Portuguese colony Goa in 1962. I always wonder what was in Nehru’s mind. It had been said that Nehru(the last Englishman to rule India according to him) was more interested in foreign affairs than domestic ones; might be such hostility towards china can demonstrate Bharat Uday(India shining) in the eyes of western powers. Considered the 1962 war left such a mental scar on the indian mind, such malaise could have been avoided if Nehru acted a bit differently during the last 50s/early 60s towards china.
    @ 82-IQ H1B Indian (BTW, I don’t believe in ‘racial’ IQ)

    Ouch indeed. With just 80 IQ India has
    1. A well developed nuclear energy and nuclear weapons program. First Asian country to operate a nuclear reactor.
    2. A space program which sent probe to Mars in 2013-14 making it The first and only Asian nation to do so (If you consider Russia as European nation). Unfortunately 100+ IQ Japan and China failed to do it till date.
    3. A well developed pharma industry which supplies 1 in 3 pills consumed by United States and 20% of all global generic medicine.
    4. IT industry worth $200 Billion in revenue.
    5. GDP which grew 10 times in last 30 years.

    My congrat !! A few reminders(I could mention more..):
    –That Mars probe was made possible because of US navigation help. That’s a briefcase size probe sent to a highly elliptical orbit which could only observe Mars come and go fashion. Could be due to control problem or lack of fuel to do a last orbit manouvre.
    –Great india IT enabled industry to employ the educated classes/castes but why India traders import such large amount of household(literally)pots and pans from China?
    –China has never demanded “India becoming a vassal state of China.”
    –China GDP in nominal US$ grew more than 10 times between 1999 and 2014 in 15 years.(Of course, pls tell me the Chinese lied on stats)

    In the last 3000 years China had *zero* cultural or religious influence on India

    –You aren’t aware of China’s impact on indian communist movement?
    ……….Being said, I fully understand indians need ‘pride’….like ancient bharat was so advanced in science that the indian monkey god Hanuman was the result of transplanting an elephant head to a human torso as claimed by Mr. Modi

    • Replies: @Lin
  101. Lin says:
    @Lin

    Correction: The indian army took back Goa in 1961 (not 1962)

  102. DB Cooper says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    “But to be fair to India, China has done a poor job in the areas of settlement cited and has a fair share of the blame for the bad relationship.”

    Don’t think so. China actually has been too accomodating in settling its border in the early days of the CCP. China has fourteen contiguous land borders with its neighbors and has settled amicably twelve of them (with the exception of India and Bhutan. Bhutan doesn’t have an independent foreign policy and the country is basically in a semi occupation state by India) by basically conceding land left and right (even Myanmar got a piece of China in the 1950s) . That the Sino-Indian border still has yet to be settled is because India was too greedy and doesn’t want to just gobbled up South Tibet (in 1951) but want to continue to push further north to grab more land from China. Had India was less ambition it could have settled the border with China in the 1960s and permanently annexed South Tibet. China’s position on South Tibet has since changed and since 2009 South Tibet is recognized by the United Nation as a disputed territory, making India the only country in the world occupying two United Nation recognized disputed territories.

    https://muse.jhu.edu/chapter/1189498/pdf

    “Since 1949, China has participated in twenty-three unique territorial disputes with its neighbors on land and at sea. Yet it has pursued compromise and offered concessions in seventeen of these conflicts. China’s compromises have often been substantial, as it has usually offered to accept less than half of the contested territory in any final settlement. In addition, these compromises have resulted in boundary agreements in which China has abandoned potential irredentist claims to more than 3.4 million square kilometers of land that had been part of the Qing empire at its height in the early nineteenth century. In total, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has contested roughly 238,000 square kilometers or just 7 percent of the territory once part of the Qing. …”

    India on the other hand has invaded and land grabbed every single of its neighbors since its creation in August 1947. The country is not content to just settled on whatever land grab the British Raj was managed to steal. As of today India has border disputes with every single of its neighbors. Unlike China that shrinks in size from seventy years ago today’s India is actually larger than it was before August 1947. The latest flare up is with Nepal again when this month India moved to finalized a piece of land it stole from Nepal in 1962. Here is a list of land grab by India since August 1947:

    [MORE]

    1947 Annexation of Kashmir:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/06/indias-shame/
    http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/kashmirs-young-rebels/
    1949 Annexation of Manipur:
    http://www.tehelka.com/manipurs-merger-with-india-was-a-forced-annexation/
    http://www.passblue.com/2017/09/05/in-lush-manipur-women-work-for-peace-as-militarization-marches-on/
    1949 Annexation of Tripura:
    http://www.crescent-online.net/2009/09/the-myths-of-one-nation-and-one-hinduism-in-india-zawahir-siddique-2316-articles.html
    1951 Annexation of South Tibet:
    http://kanglaonline.com/2011/06/khathing-the-taking-of-tawang/
    http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article2582.html
    http://chasfreeman.net/india-pakistan-and-china/
    1954 Annexation of Nagaland:
    http://morungexpress.com/desire-nagas-live-separate-nation-deserved/
    http://nagalandmusings.blogspot.com/2013/01/indias-untold-genocide-of-nagas.html
    1954 Attempt annexation of Sikkim and Bhutan (Failed):
    http://redbarricade.blogspot.hk/2013/01/twisted-truth.html
    1961 Annexation of Goa:
    http://www.ruleoflaw.org.au/the-annexation-of-goa/
    http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/goa-falls-indian-troops
    http://goa-invasion-1961.blogspot.in/2013/09/india-pirated-goa-china-is-regaining_16.html
    1962 Annexation of Kalapani, Nepal:
    http://www.eurasiareview.com/07032012-indian-hegemony-in-nepal-oped/
    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1239348
    http://www.sharnoffsglobalviews.com/land-disputes-116/
    1962 Aggression against China:
    http://gregoryclark.net/redif.html
    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame
    1971 Annexation of Turtuk, Pakistan:
    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/suddenly-indian
    1972 Annexation of Tin Bigha, Bangladesh:
    http://www.dhakatribune.com/op-ed/2014/feb/20/killing-fields
    1975 Annexation of Sikkim (the whole country):
    http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
    http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/

    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html
    1983 (Aborted) Attempted invasion of Mauritius:
    http://thediplomat.com/2013/03/when-india-almost-invaded-mauritius/
    1984 Annexation of Ladakh
    https://dailytimes.com.pk/452178/china-and-indian-annexation-of-kashmir-ladakh/
    1987 Invasion of Sri Lanka
    http://www.asiantribune.com/node/63316
    1990 (Failed) First Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html
    2006 Annexation of Duars, Bhutan:
    http://wangchasangey.blogspot.in/2015/11/different-kind-of-anxieties-on.html#comment-form
    2013 Annexation of Moreh, Myanmar:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nehginpao-kipgen/easing-indiamyanmar-borde_b_4633040.html
    2017 Aggression against China:
    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/
    http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2102555/indias-china-war-round-two
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/11/china-india-standoff-modi-has-bitten-off-more-than-he-can-chew/
    2017 (Failed) Second Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
    http://wangchasangey.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-strategy-behind-india-doklam.html
    http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2106709/india-must-find-face-saving-pretext-and-withdraw-doklam
    2018 (Thwarted) Attempt invasion of the Maldives
    https://www.ft.com/content/332a5b1a-1155-11e8-8cb6-b9ccc4c4dbbb
    https://thewire.in/223916/keep-off-maldives-yameen-government-tells-indian-military/?utm_source=alsoread
    2020 Annexation of Limpiyadhura, Kalapani and Lipulekh, Nepal
    https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/nepal-confronts-india-in-lipulekh-border-dispute/

    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  103. @Just Passing Through

    This is reasonable. If China behaves towards India like the US behaves towards China (and Russia), it is unrealistic to expect India to like it very much.

  104. Ramanujan, Bose, Chandrasekhar… I allow that India may have more “geniuses” (IQ * the other personality characteristics that make a genius, which Mongoloids seem to be weak on) at the very tail end of the bell curve than China. This is important, but China beats it on almost everything else. And unfortunately for India many of the top people leave anyway because they view Western nations making immigration easier for them as a matter of national pride.

  105. @neutral

    Sexual mores can play a certain role, but the inability to even create writing is sign of a lack of intelligence to pass a certain threshold of advancement.

    Not at all. Writing has nothing to do with intelligence. Writing is invented when a society passes a certain threshold of specialization and division of labor.

    Again you miss the point: Africans (from my limited personal experience with them) are certainly smarter than inbred Middle-Easterners, but African IQ only leads to more effective raiding, stealing and whoring.

    You need something else to convert IQ to something useful.

    • Replies: @Slimer
  106. @DB Cooper

    Do you think America will use India China border disputes as a pretext for war? I read that China successfully took over what it calls South Tibet and what India calls Arunachal Pradesh in 1962, yet immediate withdrew it’s forces. What was the rationale behind this?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  107. Slimer says:
    @anonymous coward

    There were written languages in ancient Sudan and Ethiopia. In the middle ages, West Africans modified Arabic script to write their languages.

    https://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/digitizing-ajami-african-written-language/

    These forms of writing are discredited though, since they were influenced by non-Africans. The prevailing wisdom is that achievements don’t count unless they were developed independently, although white people themselves have achieved very little on their own. Written language is a given, but things like math, astronomy and even agriculture were introduced to Europe by the Middle East. When reminded of this fact whites say it’s okay because, “dey caucasoid like us.”

    Then proceed to impose standards on blacks that they also fail to meet. While it might be fair to say Africans are less civilized than others, it’s a mistake to assume lack of achievement means lack of intelligence. Russia stands as a great counterexample to that assumption, given that it made no contributions to science until the 19th century. Same could be said about the Jews, or the whole of Northern Europe prior to the renaissance period.

  108. The idea that the average British IQ is 100 and the British are among the most intelligent people in Europe does not seem realistic to me. The idea that the British have a higher IQ than people like the Norwegians or Swedes seems even more implausible to me, and I say this as a native Englishman.

    The majority of Norwegians and Swedes speak 2 or 3 languages fluently and generally seem a lot better educated than the British. I’d be very surprised if their dumbest are as dumb as our dumbest. Frankly I’d be surprised if the average British underclass chav IQ was as high as 90, and that’s before you take into account all the low IQ third world immigrants in Britain.

    I think there is something odd about the reported average IQ of 100 in Britain, it just doesn’t seem realistic to me and I think most British people would agree the idea that the British are more intelligent than most other Europeans seems frankly laughably unlikely.

    I wonder if a large percentage of the lowest IQ in British society are not even being tested and thus are not counted in the stats in comparison to more egalitarian Scandinavian countries where most people are being tested?

  109. gate666 says:
    @martin_2

    rushton is full of shit.

  110. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    This is rather curious. Why do you think India will need to “kowtow” to China if it partners with China. But will have a seat at the table if it joins the west?

    Your reasoning?

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  111. @Just Passing Through

    USA was about to provide unlimited arms to India for that war. So China stopped. It didn’t want to fight a bogged down war at the time.

  112. @Europe Europa

    Here is a table showing IQs of various ethnic groups in the UK

    https://akarlin.com/2012/08/minorities-cognitive-performance-in-the-uk/

    What they do here is use a representative sample of 16,000 pupils from the UK and set 100 to be the average. So it doesn’t seem there is that much variance between ethnic groups, except perhaps the Chinese who are very far ahead. Note that whites are only slightly above 100, meaning that even with all the Third World peoples they are not that much better (certainly not like in America where whites are far ahead of blacks

  113. Some Guy says:
    @Europe Europa

    The idea that the average British IQ is 100

    IQ is a relative scale, you know? British people are often used as the comparison point for international comparisons, so then by definition they have IQs of 100.

    In the PISA-IQ table I linked a few comments backs that’s the case for example. And indeed native Scandinavians did have slightly higher IQs than native Brits in that table.

    British working class people seem well-known for having an anti-education attitude though, which might depress their PISA scores slightly.

    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  114. @Some Guy

    Extrapolating IQ from PISA test scores seems like pretty bad practice to me, as I said in another comment, a country like Egypt has its NIQ score as severely depressed by a poor showing on the PISA whole the IQ studies show it is not too bad.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
  115. Some Guy says:
    @Just Passing Through

    We’re talking about western Europe here though, where the schools are approximately equal.

    Comparing IQ test data has it’s own problem, since it’s often convenience samples of people at various ages doing different tests in different years, and then correcting for the Flynn Effect by guesstimation.

    And PISA data also has the advantage of showing scores by natives and non-natives, if one is talking about ethnic groups rather than countries.

  116. @Bardon Kaldian

    Most of them are Western

    A very very large proportion of the really important ‘foundational’ ones are Athenian – and date from a millennium before anything remotely resembling the ‘West’ existed.

     • Propositional Logic (e.g., Chrisyppus)
     • Ethics (e.g., Cynics, Stoics, Epicureans)
     • GEOMETRY (incl geometric proofs – e.g., Archimedes)
     • Empiricism (e.g., Epicurus)
     • the 12-interval octave scale (Aristoxenus)

    Geometry is capitalised because it has such a ridiculously broad applicability to questions about the physical world – from estimating the circumference of the Earth, to working out how to carve columns (and floors) so that they look vertical when viewed by a normal sized person standing in front of the edifice.

    Geometry contributed to the octave (because Pythagoras thought it up) but Aristoxenus made it clear that an interval scale based on perfect ratios, doesn’t sound pleasant.

  117. @Just Passing Through

    why is India not signing up to the BRI? Do you think they will join in the future?

    Short answer: India’s unwarranted economic optimism promotes a confrontational approach towards China. Signing up for the BRI is viewed as an act of acknowledging a China led Asian order. India will not “sign up” but it may pursue cross-border infrastructure projects in a low key manner.

    For more context, I’ll structure remarks according to a catalog of the main issues as I see it affecting the bilateral relationship from India’s point of view.

    Wishful thinking

    India believes it will have a $10 trillion economy by 2030. I think 2040 is a more realistic date. By 2040, US GDP will likely be $40 trillion and Chinese GDP could be $70 trillion.

    Imagined threats

    1. String of pearls

    As you point out China is investing in ports in the Indian Ocean region. However, the context is a worldwide port investment wave. There are at least 100 Chinese port investment projects globally.

    Port investments do not have India in the cross hairs. Chinese naval strategy is focused on counterbalancing the US and the effects felt by India are second order consequences. But understandably India was alarmed when two Chinese submarines made a friendly visit to Sri Lanka in 2014. India responded through clandestine action, contributing campaign money to the opposition party to defeat the Sri Lankan leader who had tilted towards China. (The effect of clandestine power tends not to be long lasting, Mahinda Rajapaksa returned to power in 2019.)

    2. Chinese military build up in the boundary areas

    There is a widespread belief in India that China is undertaking a massive military buildup along the border. There was no buildup by China before 2017. After the Doklam incident in 2017, a modest buildup was announced to counter the huge buildup by India since 2009. India quickly agreed to a restart of relations (the “Wuhan Spirit” named after the informal meeting in 2018 between leaders). India’s mistaken idea on this is probably related to 1) misinformation supplied by the Indian military to justify the buildup; 2) prolonged border negotiations in which China has adopted a hard stance creating a bad overall impression; 3) Indian media’s irresponsible hype reporting of minor transgressions across an undefined boundary with different perceptions by each side.

    Also very little attention has been given by India to the downsizing of the PLA Ground Force by 500,000 troops over the last 5 years. The Indian Army is now the largest army in the world by 200,000 troops.

    Real issues

    1. China’s alliance with Pakistan

    China is a military ally of Pakistan and I agree this is the biggest concern for India. As much as India is concerned about the relationship, it’s far from the worst possible scenario. Imagine if the Kashmir skirmishes of 2019 with Pakistan and Doklam standoff of 2017 with China happened at the same time. But already India is straining under a 2 adversary threat it has created. When Indians wondered why the oldest fighter in the inventory, a MIG-21bis, fought Pakistani F-16s, one of the answers is found in Upper Assam, a remote northeast corner of India. The IAF’s most advanced aircraft is stationed near tea plantations to face China.

    If India joins the Quad, a proposed 4-power military alliance in Asia led by the US, China will grant a war guarantee to Pakistan. So when someone says “Indo-US strategic convergence is inevitable”, they’re probably not aware of the crux of the issue. Synchronization of China and Pakistan in the military domain would be a strategic catastrophe for India.

    1b. Diplomatic support for Pakistan

    Indians understandably already see China and Pakistan as fully synchronized because of China’s unswerving diplomatic support for Pakistan. China has blocked India from the Nuclear Suppliers Group, raised Kashmir as an issue with the UN Security Council, and placed a hold on designation of a terrorist leader at the UN. That last action particularly incensed Indians. The rationale is an alliance is a 2-way street. If China doesn’t support Pakistan, it shouldn’t expect to get back support.

    2. Chinese hardline on boundary issues and Tibet

    As noted by DB Cooper, China has resolved land disputes generously with 12 of 14 countries it borders. But with India it’s different.

    After the Lhasa riot in 2008, China’s views on border settlement have changed. China wants to reclaim Tawang, a tract of Tibetan land with a key monastery that India incorporated in 1950 at the same time China raced to re-incorporated most of Tibet into China. Tawang has been since then Indian soil. This will not be easy to resolve, short of reconciliation with the Dalai Lama who can then be expected to turnaround and accuse India of occupying Tibet.

    3. Trade deficit and investment

    There is a large trade deficit in favor of China. This issue is mentioned often in the Indian media but I don’t think it has geostrategic consequences. India wants a good deal on machinery. It will not get into a trade war with China.

    There is also a lot of VC investment by Chinese funds in Indian tech startups. A lot of the investments are in apps, some of which can grow into media companies. That has Delhi concerned but India Inc is vociferously opposed to blocking Chinese investment (and the expertise that comes with it). Delhi tried blocking investment last month but caved in to the corporate outcry.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Just Passing Through
  118. Menes says:

    So, Haiti, which is the most african nation outside Africa, has a national IQ of 88.6, which is higher than all the nations of Latin America, all the nations of South Asia, all the nations of North Africa, all the nations of West Asia except Iraq, most of the nations of Southeast and Central Asia, and at least 5 european countries.

    Barbados, which is 90% african takes it up a notch to 91.7. It’s national IQ is higher than 9 european nations, all the nations of Central and West Asia and all the nations of Southeast Asia except Cambodia and Singapore. Then there is Bermuda, majority african, at 93.2

    The Caribbean could be a harbinger of the future of racial hierarchy. Three Caribbean islanders have won the Nobel Prize, 2 Afro-Caribbeans in economics and literature, and one Indo-Caribbean in literature.

    • Replies: @Menes
  119. Menes says:
    @Menes

    The Afro-Caribbean Nobel Laureate in Economics (1979):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Arthur_Lewis

    So the 5 highest IQ nations in the American Continent are either British majority: USA and Canada, or West African majority: Bermuda, Barbados and Haiti. In that order.

  120. @china-russia-all-the-way

    Thank you for you very detailed reply.

    In your opinion, if India were to join BRI in a big way, would the China stop advancing Pakistan’s interests in the international forum, such as not bringing up the Kashmir issue and not obstructing the designation of terrorists?

    Do you think a China Pakistan join invasion of Kashmir is on the cards in the future? Since the Indian government revoked the special status of Kashmir, Pakistan has been on quite the PR offensive (check out Imran Khan’s Twitter feed for example). If India were hypothetically fall into China’s sphere of influence, would it not be a possibility that it could end up alienating everyone, the Chinese not yet fully trusting India and so still advancing Pakistani interests, and America/UK/France also getting angry and dispensing of support for India?

    And finally, what is the current status of the Bangladesh, China, India and Myanmar Corridor?

  121. @Astuteobservor II

    There were understandable doubts in PLA loyalty in some areas(urban troops) but the Northern troops from the countryside was known to be unquestioning.

    No one in China was going to tear the own country apart in a civil war at that point. The last real chance of CCP going away was probably the Korean War if the US invaded with KMT.

    A Nationalist led China, however, will be acting in many of the same ways as the CCP now.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  122. @Daniel Chieh

    Example this guy, who’s from a KMT family.

    [MORE]

  123. Interesting. I wonder why parts of South America, especially Argentina, are so low. I was under the impression some of those areas are pretty white / Euro-dominated.

    It may be the scale of the chart — maybe one with more granularity would show up regional differences more (esp. the urban/rural divide … I’d like to see what that looks like)

  124. Any idea what the IQ of modern-day Ukrainian Jews is? It looks like population estimates for the Jewish population in Ukraine are around 400,000. The only large Jewish populations today who I can imagine are not as well-off as their counterparts in other countries are those in Ukraine and Israel.

  125. brazil have a huge variation. it can be as low as anywhere as higher than any country in other groups, like federal public servants

  126. So the american average IQ is 97? That means the average for WHITE americans is like 120.

  127. @Znzn

    China is not homogeneous. They have minorities such as Tibetans, Uyghurs, Kazakhs, etc.

  128. @Just Passing Through

    In your opinion, if India were to join BRI in a big way, would the China stop advancing Pakistan’s interests in the international forum

    Before Modi’s election in 2015, India looked to join BRI. In practical terms this means Indian engagement in hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects with Chinese lenders and construction contractors. While it would be a big shift for a Modi government to reverse course and join BRI, to maintain perspective, as late as 2015, Indian participation in BRI was considered neutral and did not presage a closer partnership with China that would mean China puts Pakistan on the back burner. However Modi is probably here to stay and to get Modi’s India to reverse course, China would need to moderate diplomatic support for Pakistan. Some flexibility has been shown in 2019. The hold on the terrorist leader was lifted after the Kashmir skirmishes, which had been precipitated by a major terrorist attack by the leader in question. However, the China-Pak alliance is over 50 years old. It’s not going away.

    Do you think a China Pakistan join invasion of Kashmir is on the cards in the future?

    No way. China would try very hard to get Pakistan to veer away from any adventurism in Kashmir much less plan a joint invasion. If a war between Pakistan and India does break out in Kashmir, China is obligated based on the two way street principle to supply lend lease to help Pakistan so China would indeed become involved if things can’t be helped.

    If India were hypothetically fall into China’s sphere of influence, would it not be a possibility that it could end up alienating everyone

    On a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being military allies and 5 being enemies, India’s China stance is somewhere between positions 3 and 4, trending towards 4. I think by fall into China’s sphere you mean go to position 2. I don’t see it happening. China’s goal is to get India to move firmly to position 3. If position 2 did happen I think a number of prerequisites showing China’s shift on the Pakistan relationship, the boundary, and the Indian Ocean would have happened. Greater trust by China would have already been demonstrated.

    India’s primary interests with the US are business ties in the services trade (IT outsourcing) and immigration visas. Alienating the US does not have consequences for India in the business domain due to the ideological configuration of US politics. A US administration that pursues confrontation against China will be led by Trump or a successor to Trumpism. It’s unnatural for Trumpism to open the door to skilled Indian immigration and IT outsourcing. Trump is courting Modi to get on board against China. But regardless of the Quad, Trump has slapped tariffs on India and a mini trade war has ignited. His administration considers data laws to cripple the IT outsourcing industry in India and is really pushing the envelope with further restrictions on the flow of H1-b visas (“Trump Minimum Wage For H-1B Visa Holders Could Reach $250,000 A Year”). Even worse, thought leaders of Trumpism nurse a grudge against smart Indians because IIT grads are taking positions in high finance and the C-suite, prestigious positions that Steven Bannon would want for his sons if he had any.

    When asked if he agreed, Bannon responded: “When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think . . . ” he didn’t finish his sentence. “A country is more than an economy. We’re a civic society.”

    https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa

    On the other hand, a US administration that seeks stable relations with China will not pressure India to join on its side. A Biden presidency will along with good China relations also encourage skilled Indian immigration and growth for Indian IT outsourcing. In fact, the closer India becomes aligned with the US the more obligations it will incur without any tangible rewards. India would be expected to buy US weapons (at the expense of Russia) and comply with sanctions on Iranian oil. The only reward is psychic. To induce India to join the Quad, the US renamed is commandant command for the region from Pacific to Indo-Pacific. The signal being sent is India gets more prominence in Asian affairs if fighting under the US. The high caste Hindu sees partnership with China as giving up on dreams of becoming a global power any day soon.

    France and UK are irrelevant geopolitically East of Suez.

    And finally, what is the current status of the Bangladesh, China, India and Myanmar Corridor?

    The corridor is no longer designated as one of the corridors of the Belt and Road. The list was last updated during the summit in May 2019. Following the disappearance of the BCIM, China and Burma are engaged in constructing a bilateral corridor. India is holding Bangladesh back from full fledged participation but due to India’s limited resources in funding projects abroad, it can not offer Bangladesh a decent alternative and I predict Bangladesh will join the BRI to get the deep water port it badly needs.

    But despite lack of coordination diplomatically a railway that would have been the centerpiece of BCIM may actually get done in 2020s. Driven by readiness concerns, India is investing heavily in railways in its Northeast. One of the recently built railways will reach the Burma border and Burma may extend the railway to Mandalay. China will finance a railway from Yunnan province to Mandalay. The result will be the uncoordinated formation of a India-Burma-China-Thailand corridor.

  129. In your opinion, if India were to join BRI in a big way, would the China stop advancing Pakistan’s interests in the international forum

    Before Modi’s election in 2015, India looked to join BRI. In practical terms this means Indian engagement in hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects with Chinese lenders and construction contractors. While it would be a big shift for a Modi government to reverse course and join BRI, to maintain perspective, as late as 2015, Indian participation in BRI was considered neutral and did not presage a closer partnership with China that would mean China puts Pakistan on the back burner. However Modi is probably here to stay and to get Modi’s India to reverse course, China would need to moderate diplomatic support for Pakistan. Some flexibility has been shown in 2019. The hold on the terrorist leader was lifted after the Kashmir skirmishes, which had been precipitated by a major terrorist attack by the leader in question. However, the China-Pak alliance is over 50 years old. It’s not going away.

    Do you think a China Pakistan join invasion of Kashmir is on the cards in the future?

    No way. China would try very hard to get Pakistan to veer away from any adventurism in Kashmir much less plan a joint invasion. If a war between Pakistan and India does break out in Kashmir, China is obligated based on the two way street principle to supply lend lease to help Pakistan so China would indeed become involved if things can’t be helped.

    If India were hypothetically fall into China’s sphere of influence, would it not be a possibility that it could end up alienating everyone

    On a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being military allies and 5 being enemies, India’s China stance is somewhere between positions 3 and 4, trending towards 4. I think by fall into China’s sphere you mean go to position 2. I don’t see it happening. China’s goal is to get India to move firmly to position 3. If position 2 did happen I think a number of prerequisites showing China’s shift on the Pakistan relationship, the boundary, and the Indian Ocean would have happened. Greater trust by China would have already been demonstrated.

    India’s primary interests with the US are business ties in the services trade (IT outsourcing) and immigration visas. Alienating the US does not have consequences for India in the business domain due to the ideological configuration of US politics. A US administration that pursues confrontation against China will be led by Trump or a successor to Trumpism. It’s unnatural for Trumpism to open the door to skilled Indian immigration and IT outsourcing. Trump is courting Modi to get on board against China. But regardless of the Quad, Trump has slapped tariffs on India and a mini trade war has ignited. His administration considers data laws to cripple the IT outsourcing industry in India and is really pushing the envelope with further restrictions on the flow of H1-b visas (“Trump Minimum Wage For H-1B Visa Holders Could Reach $250,000 A Year”). Even worse, thought leaders of Trumpism nurse a grudge against smart Indians because IIT grads are taking positions in high finance and the C-suite, prestigious positions that Steven Bannon would want for his sons if he had any.

    When asked if he agreed, Bannon responded: “When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think . . . ” he didn’t finish his sentence. “A country is more than an economy. We’re a civic society.”

    https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa

    On the other hand, a US administration that seeks stable relations with China will not pressure India to join on its side. A Biden presidency will along with good China relations also encourage skilled Indian immigration and growth for Indian IT outsourcing. In fact, the closer India becomes aligned with the US the more obligations it will incur without any tangible rewards. India would be expected to buy US weapons (at the expense of Russia) and comply with sanctions on Iranian oil. The only reward is psychic. To induce India to join the Quad, the US renamed is commandant command for the region from Pacific to Indo-Pacific. The signal being sent is India gets more prominence in Asian affairs if fighting under the US. The high caste Hindu sees partnership with China as giving up on dreams of becoming a global power any day soon.

    France and UK are irrelevant geopolitically East of Suez.

    And finally, what is the current status of the Bangladesh, China, India and Myanmar Corridor?

    The corridor is no longer designated as one of the corridors of the Belt and Road. The list was last updated during the summit in May 2019. Following the disappearance of the BCIM, China and Burma are engaged in constructing a bilateral corridor. India is holding Bangladesh back from full fledged participation but due to India’s limited resources in funding projects abroad, it can not offer Bangladesh a decent alternative and I predict Bangladesh will join the BRI to get the deep water port it badly needs.

    But despite lack of coordination diplomatically a railway that would have been the centerpiece of BCIM may actually get done in 2020s. Driven by readiness concerns, India is investing heavily in railways in its Northeast. One of the recently built railways will reach the Burma border and Burma may extend the railway to Mandalay. China will finance a railway from Yunnan province to Mandalay. The result will be the uncoordinated formation of a India-Burma-China-Thailand corridor.

  130. Saxon says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Eskimo low IQ is probably due to inbreeding from low population density and difficulties related to how they live in very cold areas. The American Indians on the reservations on the other hand are usually 70-80% European admixture so no one really knows how intelligent the original ones were. Probably not very since most of them were hunter-gatherers. In any case their reservations are the way they are in large part because of the way they are. Especially in a country like Canada where they have huge advantages over whites and can skip paying taxes when they operate businesses in the reservations.

    Most Europeans in Canada, America, Australia and New Zealand are from the areas of Europe with a ~100-103 IQ. Overwhelmingly northwest European.

  131. Dule says:

    The sources of these data on national IQs should be checked carefully. One of the prominent ‘researchers’ in this field is Richard Lynn, former lecturer at the University of Exeter and former professor of psychology at the Economic and Social Research Institute, Dublin, and at the University of Ulster at Colera, that has been revealed as fraudster and stripped of his university titles. It was established that his ‘research’ lacked scientific rigour, misrepresented data, and promoted a racialist political agenda. His data were falsified so as to alege the low IQ not only of ‘inferior rases’, but also of the white peoples in the Balcans who happened to profess ‘wrong religions’, or even ‘wrong branches of Christianity’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

  132. Max Max says:

    Why do white countries like Uruguay and Argentina have such low IQ’s compared to southern Europe? It’s the same people in both regions. Perhaps comparing them with their neighbors is not the best approach for such cases..

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  133. @Max Max

    White, Mestizo or Indio ?

    [MORE]

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