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Innovative Immigrants. But Which Ones?
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America’s ability to draw high quality human capital from abroad is one of the lynchpins of its economic strengths and probably goes some ways to explaining why it’s GDP per capita is significantly higher than would might be predicted from its national IQ.

Alexander Kruel recently had a Twitter thread about precisely which groups of immigrants contribute to that innovation:

From The Demographics of Innovation in the United States (page 26-27).

Nothing surprising there. But it’s spelled out just in case:

Then it cites the composition of the US Math Olympiad team. The International Math Olympiad has indeed long become a Chinese vs. Chinese-American contest.

Similarly “Oriental” picture in Canada.

Now the underrepresentation of NAM (non-Asian minority) immigrant achievement is something that’s in the “those who know, know” category, to be surreptitiously noticed if not publicly acknowledged .

But there’s a much more obscure but also rather important, and arguably more interesting, HBD observation to be teased out from behind these three examples.

Any suggestions?

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Passer by says:

    Actually it was Asians that were massively overrepresented among US innovators, around 3-4 times more than their share in the US population.

    Wasn’t the richest self-made russian woman korean btw?

  3. Your data and observations only have one possible conclusion in today’s woke environment.

    White supremacy and racism have combined in America to limit the opportunities and career paths for all non-whites, especially immigrants. The only solution is more legally mandated affirmative action and programs designed to reduce the sheer number of whites allowed to attend higher education and fill job openings.

    Equity if it kills us to attain it.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Californian Candidate
  4. Passer by says:
    @Passer by

    Oh, one more thing going against conventional HBD wisdom. Chinese women (living in China) totally dominate the self-made female billionaire list (two thirds of all self-made female billionaires in the world, more than the rest of the world combined). For some reason they are way better at making big companies and getting ultra rich compared to white women.

  5. AaronB says:
    @Passer by

    The discussion is about first generation Asian immigrants not the American Asian population as a whole.

    6 Asian innovators out of 116 is 5.17%. The Asian American population is roughly 6% of the country. So it would be slightly less but not drastically so (and certainly not 3-4 times as much!).

    But this is a meaningless figure.

    To get a sense of the proportional talent, we’d have to know the size of the first generation Asian, English, German, etc community.

    If the first generation Asian community is 100 people, and they contributed 6 innovators, and the first generation English community is 100,000 people, and they contributed 21 – this would make the Asian contribution far more significant per capita.

    But I think we both know here are far more first generation Asians then there are Germans, Scotch, English, etc.

    But in a sane world, none of this would be competitive, and humanity would organize large scale human endeavors according to distinctive group capabilities.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    , @tamo
  6. HBD is structurally naive & reductionist. IQ matters, but not that much.

    Europeans, “racially”, are more innovative & tend to create real breakthroughs both in fundamental & applied sciences, as well as in other areas. I am not saying that math Olympiads & similar (con)test are to be dismissed (on the contrary), but I wouldn’t give too much weight to it.

    One more observation: mathematical prodigies tend to be dumb people outside of their god-given gifts. Like they lack half a brain.

  7. A123 says:

    AK,

    Of the 116 Fortune 500 companies, is there a sector break out?

    -1- Manufacturing & Science driven companies are potentially highly desirable.
    -2- FIRE firms much less so.
    -3- Pro-SJW Media & Social Service institutions are destructive to national value.

    I am suspicious that Emperor Palpatine George IslamoSoros may be one of the three Hungarians.

    PEACE 😇

  8. songbird says:
    @Passer by

    For some reason they are way better at making big companies and getting ultra rich compared to white women.

    Not sure that is a fair comparison. Great fortunes are made during opportune times.

    China is/was in an era of expansion and opportunity. There was more room for non-tech fortunes to be made due to lack of established players. Closest analogy, excluding technology (which women tend to be bad at), might be the era of rail in the US. But the era of rail didn’t happen in a communist system that put women to work and limited them to one child.

    The three richest Chinese women seem to all be in real estate. Do you really think that was possible in the West? To become a billionaire by developing properties, in the past 30 years? Competing with established players, from nothing?

    • Replies: @Passer by
  9. Passer by says:
    @songbird

    Great fortunes are made during opportune times.

    Nope, these “great fortunes” do not apply for some reason to chinese men. There are similar number of male billionaires in China and the US, which means that the US has about 4 times more male billionaires on per capita basis.

    the era of rail didn’t happen in a communist system that put women to work and limited them to one child.

    China has lower female labour force participation rate than the US and its even dropping further. Which makes this even more incredibe.

    Btw, China is still at 10k $ per capita GDP, more than 6 times less the US.

    The number of billionaires in a country is strongly related to per capita GDP, that is, you (generally) get more billionaires per capita when the country is rich and less when the country is poor.

    So, for a relatively poor country (on per capita basis), with relatively low female labour force participation rate, to have 65 % of the world’s share among the women is incredible, especially since it does not apply to the men and there things look within norms.

    • Replies: @songbird
  10. Passer by says:
    @AaronB

    The discussion is about first generation Asian immigrants not the American Asian population as a whole.

    No, its not.

    Ethnicity: Looking at the entire sample, White innovators accounted for 75.6 percent of the sample. Individuals of Asian or Pacific Islander ethnicity made up the second largest group at 18.7 percent.

    page 25

    https://www2.itif.org/2016-demographics-of-innovation.pdf

    • Replies: @AaronB
  11. songbird says:
    @Passer by

    It has been said that education ruins the entrepreneurial spirit. I suspect that there might be something to that.

    So, for a relatively poor country (on per capita basis), with relatively low female labour force participation rate, to have 65 % of the world’s share among the women is incredible

    Chinese women make up 1/5 the world’s total, but what percentage of ice-people women? Must be around half.

    Though, it is hard to make scientific comparisons.

    From looking at lists of wealthy women in the West. Many seem to be heirs, divorcees, or possibly diversity hires (that is, promoted for legal reasons because they are women.) In the case of Oprah – I think it is pretty clear she was promoted because she was a black woman. I can really only think of one women in the West, who maybe is self-made – that Spanx one.

    • Replies: @Passer by
  12. AaronB says:
    @Passer by

    Page 27

    Considering only the sample born in the United States, 92.3 percent were White, 3 percent were Asian, and 2.1 percent were Hispanic.

    Asian Americans represent only 2.3 percent of U.S.-born innovators. Considering the
    substantial contributions to innovation that Asians born outside of the United States have,
    as well as the high average education levels for this demographic, this result is very
    surprising.65 In fact, U.S.-born Asian innovators are underrepresented in the sample

    • Replies: @AaronB
  13. Tor597 says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I wouldn’t bank on innovation bailing out white people in the rest of this decade.

    You have a lot of Asians who were stuck toiling in rice fields or factories this generation and last. These people didn’t have the chance to have spare time or capital to innovate.

    I do think Western culture leads to greater openness which can spur innovation, but we are in an age where whites will likely see less freedom going forward and Asians more.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  14. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    According to your link, Asians account for 1.8% of the US population, but only 1.5% of the innovation sample. (Page 23 or 24 I think).

    And 94.1% of the Asian innovators were born outside the US.

    Interesting on many levels.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @RadicalCenter
  15. @American Citizen

    Why stop there? Make it mandatory that all future and current US-based corporations need to have their upper management & board of directors be at least 2/3 non-white and 1/2 female.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  16. Passer by says:
    @songbird

    Chinese women make up 1/5 the world’s total, but what percentage of ice-people women? Must be around half.

    It is a relatively poor country (poorer than Eastern Europe) with lower female labour force participation rate and this does not apply to chinese men, who are only 25 % of world’s billionaires. This wasn’t supposed to happen, if HBD views about asians are to be believed.

  17. tamo says:
    @AaronB

    You said “But I think we both know here are far more first generation Asians then there are Germans, Scotch, English, etc”. You should remember that until 1965, America had a very restrictive immigration policy against Asians but favoring European immigration so that the large number of Asian immigrants to the U.S. is a relatively recent phenomenon, compared to many hundred years of relatively free European immigration to America. In other words, when it comes to first generation immigrants to America, Europeans had a lot earlier head start than Asians. I’m sure a lot of the Fortune 500 companies were established by first generation European immigrants prior to 1965 when there were not many first generation Asian immigrants to America, due to the discriminatory American immigration policy against Asians.

    • Replies: @northeast
  18. Robin Li Yanhong is a Chinese software engineer and billionaire internet entrepreneur. He is the co-founder of the search engine Baidu. He also developed RankDex, the first web search engine with page-ranking and site-scoring algorithms.

    It was the first search engine that used hyperlinks to measure the quality of websites it was indexing, predating the very similar algorithm patent filed by Google two years later in 1998. Google founder Larry Page referenced Li’s work in some of his U.S. patents for PageRank. Li later used his Rankdex technology for the Baidu search engine.

    One of the richest people in China, he has a net worth of US$14.7 billion as of April 2021.

    Why’d he go back to China when he could’ve been a Big Shot in America?

    How many of those 106 Non Asians innovators would’ve left China or gone back to China if they were Chinese?

    America is the Centre of the European/ Western World and in particular the Anglosphere. It isn’t, and never will be the Centre of the Sinosphere.

  19. BlackFlag says:
    @Passer by

    Sample size is very small. Better if you look at entrepreneurs who have made 50mm or 100mm if you can find that.
    Maybe there is greater sexual dimorphism among Europeans than Orientals? I’ve noticed that Oriental women are much more practical and sensible than European women. Whereas there isn’t much difference between Euopean and Oriental men.

  20. Alfa158 says:
    @AaronB

    Passer by either doesn’t understand the contents of the link he supplied, or assumes none of us would bother to look at it, and we would swallow his misrepresentation of what it said.
    Here are the relevant numbers extracted:

    Table 7: U.S.-Born Share of U.S. Population and of Survey Respondents, by Ethnicity

    Percentage of Innovators, Percentage of Population

    White. 59.6% , 59.2%

    Asian 1.5%. , 1.8%

    US born Whites are slightly more likely than Asians to be innovators.

    Table 8: Foreign-Born Share of U.S. Population and of Survey Respondents, by Region of Origin

    Percentage of Innovators, Percentage of Population

    Europe 12.6% , 1.5%

    Asia. 17.8%. , 3.9%

    Europeans are almost twice as likely as foreign born Asians to be innovators.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    , @tamo
    , @Passer by
  21. @Blinky Bill

    Or Japan for that matter.

    India is a Very interesting case. How it’s relationship with the US develops will shape the destiny’s of both these countries and not for the better IMHO.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  22. @Passer by

    Chinese women (living in China) totally dominate the self-made female billionaire list (two thirds of all self-made female billionaires in the world, more than the rest of the world combined).

    Interesting. Dragon Ladies’ revenge. Also, interesting that China is one of the only places with an equal male-female suicide rate.

  23. @Blinky Bill

    There’s more push and pull taking people from China to the US than from Europe to the US. You can see this in immigration figures. The difference is extreme. Your single anecdote, notwithstanding.

    • Disagree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  24. Alfa158 says:
    @Alfa158

    To continue, the real lesson is that this study suggests that there is not a huge gap in innovation between Whites and Asians. The gaps between Whites and Asians and everyone else are huge, but the White/Asian gap is small enough to debunk the idea that although Asians may do real well academically, Americans don’t have to worry because Asians just aren’t able to innovate. These gaps are small enough that they may just be a temporary vestige of lingering cultural legacies.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  25. songbird says:
    @Blinky Bill

    We need Hakka numbers that somehow account for geography.

  26. @Triteleia Laxa

    If you’re a member of the intellectual elite in any Anglosphere country you’re far more likely to emigrate to the US than if you’re an elite in China. In some Continental European countries such as Germany this tendency is reduced.

    Just look at Russia, would you care to guess what fraction of Russia’s intellectual elite migrated to the US and whether that percentage is lower or higher than that of China’s or Japan’s. What of Poland’s, Netherlands etc?

    Who here believes the Han in Taiwan are any different from the Han in China on a Racial level. The reason there are 4 from Chinese Taipei and only one from Mainland China has nothing to do with intrinsic racial difference in inventiveness but rather the simple fact that the Chinese/KMT elite fled to Taiwan and then were allowed to immigrate to the US 40 years earlier than the mainlanders. Giving them a head start in Intrinsic Inventiveness. 😉

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    , @GMC
  27. northeast says:
    @tamo

    There was no discriminatory policy toward Asians prior to 1965…there was a policy in place to limit their immigration numbers because the citizens did not want millions of them to flood the USA, just like Asian nations limit their immigration numbers.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @tamo
  28. tamo says:
    @Alfa158

    According to a the Figure 5 in the original article by Mr. Karlin, there is no doubt about that Asian Americans create a lot more innovators in proportion to population than white Americans

  29. mal says:

    1. Europeans have higher risk tolerance (key requirement for attempting to build a business empire).

    2. Europeans know how to sell (second key requirement for attempting to build a business empire). It used to be easier to sell if you were white, but changing demographics and markets means corporations need to go woke to connect with new customers better. Corporations go where credit rating grows. Everything is about “low monthly payment”.

    As an aside, I think Operation Paperclip guys contributed more to American technological might than the rich fat cats.

    I mean, Wernher von Braun and Adolf Busemann vs Sergey Brin and Elon Musk? Maybe, if Musk actually lands on the Moon, they will balance out. On the other hand, I have difficulty imagining von Braun filling out a job application anywhere in the US today. Twitter would have a fit. So I guess we take what we can get.

    • Replies: @Xi-jinping
  30. @Blinky Bill

    If you’re a member of the intellectual elite in any Anglosphere country you’re far more likely to emigrate to the US than if you’re an elite in China. In some Continental European countries such as Germany this tendency is reduced

    Yes, the country with the GDP per capita of $10K has less selective immigration to the US than the middle class continent does to the US. Makes perfect sense.

    but rather the simple fact that the Chinese/KMT elite fled to Taiwan and then were allowed to immigrate to the US 40 years earlier than the mainlanders. Giving them a head start in Intrinsic Inventiveness

    The elite remained elite.

    • Disagree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  31. If you really want to start a bonfire separate the European/anglosphere immigrants into Gentile and Jew.

    I think you will see Jews vastly overrepresented.

    Politically correct answer: America was the place where a people without a land (Jews) could settle down and not be persecuted, so you had tons of would be entrepreneurs migrating to a country where they could be entrepreneurs in contrast to them just being oppressed in Europe.

    Politically incorrect answer: Jews are übermensch
    Politically incorrect answer #2: Jews are nepotistic greedy merchants who took full advantage of American naivety to their ways and got to shape the culture to be philosemtic before antisemitism took root.

    My answer: I don’t give a shit, the future is China and ‘muh creativity’ is just a westoid cope

  32. @Triteleia Laxa

    You don’t seem to understand that the Anglosphere essentially behaves as one nation especially when it comes to the Elite Strata. Hence England 21, Canada 14, Ireland 8, Scotland 7, Australia 1, South Africa 1, Hong Kong 1.

    The same applies to the EU but with a substantially lower level of interconnectedness. The Chinese could only dream of such access, but in the end it was for the best!

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  33. tamo says:
    @northeast

    There is no doubt about the American immigration policy prior to 1965 was discriminatory because it favored NORTHERN and WESTERN Europeans while discriminating against all others. I’m going to quote from Wikipedia on Immigration And Nationality Act of 1965 “The Hart–Celler Act of 1965 marked a radical break from U.S. immigration policies of the past. Since Congress restricted naturalized citizenship to “white persons” in 1790, laws restricted immigration from Asia and Africa, and gave preference to northern and western Europeans over southern and Eastern Europeans.[3][4] The Immigration Act of 1924 had permanently established the National Origins Formula as the basis of U.S. immigration policy, largely to restrict immigration from Asia, Southern Europe, and Eastern Europe. According to the Office of the Historian of the U.S. Department of State, the purpose of the 1924 Act was “to preserve the ideal of U.S. homogeneity ( meaning NORTHERN and WESTERN Europeans, emphasis mine).

    • Replies: @northeast
  34. @Blinky Bill

    In the world outside of your imaginings:

    East and South Asian immigrants have higher levels of education than European ones, prior to moving, which is remarkable given the far lower levels of education in where they move from. This makes them far more elite in their home countries.

    • Disagree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @Blinky Bill
  35. northeast says:
    @tamo

    Are you dense? Serious question. The white people who occupied the United States at that time had a right as an autonomous nation to let people of their own kind into THEIR nation as THEY pleased. Just like Asian nations keep out people who are not of their kind.

    That’s not discrimination in the sense you are proposing. It’s discrinating based on keeping your nation harmonious & functional. Does the United States look functional to you since the 1965 immigration act was passed?

    Do you get the difference now!

    • Replies: @tamo
  36. AaronB says:
    @Alfa158

    Well, American Asians have much higher levels of education and much higher rates of representation at elite unis than American Whites. That they still only match American Whites in terms of rates of innovations suggests that they are significantly less innovative.

    American Asians disproportionately come from the Asian intellectual elite – there is a reason Asians in America have a reputation for being nerdy bookworms, but when you go to Asia you discover that Asians have the “normal” distribution of human types – cool kids, jocks, muscular types, etc. – whereas American Whites represent the full spectrum of human types, down to tree logger and construction worker.

    The same pattern seems to be repeated when it comes to first generation immigrants from Asia and Europe.

    Further down Karlin’s Twitter thread, you see that the US and China have roughly equal numbers of unicorn companies – despite China having four times or more people than the US, a higher average IQ, and no severely underperforming minorities – and is a new country still in the process of developing key industries and filling economic niches. This is pretty astonishing.

    In light of this, a case can be made that Asians do not deserve their high rates at elite unis, and should get a handicap in admissions 🙂 I am of course joking, but it does indicate that the tools we have developed to measure ability and predict future performance are severely lacking, especially at elite levels.

    That being said, my personal belief is that Asians are perfectly capable of innovation but come from a culture that is too wise to place great emphasis on innovation. However, this culture may be in the process of eroding in China.

    I don’t really care about innovation and think the next leap in human development will be away from Faustian culture with it’s emphasis on innovation, based on the illusion of Separation, and towards a “reunification” with nature.

    In this, I think traditional Asian culture can play a leading role, and develop a new application of technology towards working with nature rather than dominating it.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Passer by
    , @Passer by
  37. @Triteleia Laxa

    H-1B ≠ Musk

    H-1B ≠ Patrick Soon-Shiong

    [MORE]

  38. AaronB says:

    I want to make clear that I am not interested in the racial competitiveness aspect here, which I suspect is the primary interest of most here.

    I am interested in pointing out the blisteringly obvious but widely ignored inadequacy of IQ tests and our other “scientific” tools of measuring and especially predicting performance, especially at anything other than the most broad and coarse grained level.

    And also explore culture. Asian Americans, while heavily Americanized, nevertheless retain many features of their home culture – for instance, they are less likely to get fat, which I believe is entirely cultural (obesity is a “holistic” mind-body problem and not the purely physical problem Western science has tried to frame it as – and failed to find solutions for within that frame).

    Instead of racial competition, I want to highlight cultural priorities, and how they might impact outcomes, lifestyles, etc.

    Is innovation even important?

  39. tamo says:
    @northeast

    Hey man, don’t get angry with me. I just mentioned the simple fact about the American immigration law prior to 1965. It might surprise you that I understand your feelings and I agree with your positions.

    • Thanks: northeast
  40. Beckow says:

    I hate to rain on this entrepreneurial worship parade but this would be like saying that since most European high nobility were white, Christian males, they were smarter and superior to everyone else. Right, is that a surprise?

    The truth is in details: each story of a successful business has details and nuances that get lost when you look at the aggregate data. The details always show some wild break – often from the government, easy credit, deference to credentials, nepotism, and luck. Sometimes there is high IQ and inventiveness, other times there is none. It only makes sense that the insider people with the best access to these intangibles would be overrepresented. Or do you really think easy money, lucky breaks and government contracts have been there for everyone equally. And don’t give us the sob immigrant story – the same connections based dynamic applies to immigrants, why wouldn’t it?

    Western conservatism will die off the idiotic Ayn Rand worship. It has no appeal beyond a few fluffy would-be snobs. It is based on misreading what life is like for most people, no wonder even the insane wokists are walking all over you. In a way they come across as more real.

    • Agree: anyone with a brain
  41. @Triteleia Laxa

    In the world outside of your imaginings:

    This makes them far more elite in their home countries.

    What this doesn’t make them is Founders of American Fortune 500 Companies! 😂

    You need a special sort of immigrant to achieve that, very few of which from China come or stay for long. With each passing year the number from China will continue to dwindle for the same reasons they never came from Japan at all or at least in any substantial number.

    • Disagree: Triteleia Laxa
  42. By and large, the Chinese are soulless. That does not seem to promote Coffee Salon tendencies.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/salon-demographics/

    • Agree: Grahamsno(G64)
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  43. @AaronB

    Asians account for about six percent of the US population as of 2019, per US Census Bureau:
    https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219

    That does not include people who report that they are multiracial asian (mostly Eurasians like our childen) or native Hawaiians.

  44. TG says:

    It’s very simple.

    From 1929 to about 1965, the United States had very little legal immigration and about zero illegal immigration. We were easily able to recruit people like Einstein and Fermi and Szilard etc., because we had so many opportunities here.

    As we open the floodgates to the overpopulated third world, we will inevitably drive down our quality of life and living standards, and, little by little, we will find it harder and harder to recruit the next Einstein.

    Sure, there are a limitless number of starving mediocrities we can recruit, and these will provide wonderful cheap labor for Google and Facebook etc., but the next Einstein will likely go elsewhere.

    Did Einstein wish he could have immigrated to Bangladesh or Pakistan? Heck no.

    Right now talented faculty are eager to work at Harvard. Suppose Harvard hired every faculty applicant, no questions asked, and split the money for salary and lab space etc. Very soon being faculty at Harvard would pay minimum wage at that and you might be lucky to have a tent on the street somewhere. And really talented faculty would go elsewhere.

    We can have quality or we can have quantity, but in the long run, we can’t have both.

  45. @Passer by

    Every Chinese woman I have ever met had some sort of peddling business online in addition to her normal job.

  46. dux.ie says:

    > Ethnicity of Innovators by Sample

    Counting head is assuming equality of outcome. A more meritocratic metric is to weight them by performance, like wealth generated or the number of patent granted. Technical innovation is easier to measure. For example, almost all mobile phones use the Qualcomm modems, except iPhone which uses Intel modem and some Samsung phones which use their own modem so as to have second source. The patent data can be obtained from Justia.com, https://patents.justia.com/assignee/qualcomm-incorporated . The list of the top 20 inventors,

    Company=Qualcomm, NInventor=9688 | from 1976-02-03 to 2019-07-02

    Rank| NPatent | Name
    1| 961 | Peter Gaal
    2| 906 | Wanshi Chen
    3| 844 | Tao Luo
    4| 592 | Junyi Li
    5| 577 | Hao Xu
    6| 501 | Marta Karczewicz
    7| 487 | Tingfang Ji
    8| 369 | Yongbin Wei
    9| 368 | Aleksandar Damnjanovic
    10| 366 | Juan Montojo
    11| 339 | Durga Prasad Malladi
    12| 314 | Xiaoxia Zhang
    13| 307 | Naga Bhushan
    14| 293 | Jing Sun
    15| 247 | Joseph Binamira Soriaga
    15| 247 | George Cherian
    17| 232 | Jing Jiang
    18| 227 | Ye-Kui Wang
    19| 223 | Gavin Bernard Horn
    20| 217 | Simone Merlin

    Four of the top 5 have Chinese ancestry, the other is a Hungarian immigrant, 10 out of the top 20 also have Chinese ancestry. And that is even before weighted by the number of patents granted. Trying to determine the ethnicity of nearly 10,000 inventors is tedious. An easier approximate method is to use the surname distributionn data from US Census to estimate the ethnicity, e.g. there are more non-Asian Lee’s but almost all Li’s are Asians.

    name | pctwhite | pctblack | pcthispanic | PctAsi | pctNonAsi
    Lee | 35.95 | 16.33 | 1.89 | 42.22 | 57.78
    Li | 1.49 | 0.19 | 0.63 | 96.78 | 3.22
    Young | 66.26 | 24.67 | 2.58 | 3.03 | 96.97
    Yang | 1.03 | 0.2 | 0.45 | 96.81 | 3.19

    However, it is also apparent that among the technical innovators the percentage of Asian (~45% ??) is very much higher than the percentage in the general US population (~ 5.4%), and so the estimated percentage of Asian innovators could be as much as 8x too small. Still the estimated relative demographic distribution weighted with the number of patent granted, you can see why some people are only interested in counting heads.Similarly for Intel and NVidia,https://i.ibb.co/sQ0gKTb/ethnvi.png

    • Replies: @It's Ovrer
    , @Philip Owen
  47. dux.ie says:

    The 2021 International Informatics Olympiad (International Computer Programming Competition), https://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2021
    Rank Score Country
    1 2139 China
    2 1669 United States of America
    3 1563 Singapore
    4 1545 Russia
    5 1529 Japan
    8 1429 Canada
    On closer inspection at the individual level. Each country has 4 contestants. The top 10 are all with East Asian ancestry. US contestant surnames Jiang (Chiang), Huang (Wang), Feng (Fung), Qi (Chai) and Canadian Contestants Zhou (Chou), Pei (?) and Guo (Kwok) are most probably recent migrants from China mainland.

    Rank | Contestant | Country | Candies | Keys | Parks | Dna | Dungeons | Registers | ScoreAbs | ScoreRel | Medal
    1 | Mingyang Deng | China | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 600 | 100.00 | Gold
    2 | Yi Qian | China | 67 | 100 | 70 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 537 | 89.50 | Gold
    3 | Chenxin Dai | China | 100 | 100 | 70 | 100 | 89 | 46 | 505 | 84.17 | Gold
    4 | Haoxiang Yu | China | 100 | 37 | 100 | 100 | 89 | 71 | 497 | 82.83 | Gold
    5 | Rain Jiang | USA | 100 | 100 | 45 | 100 | 100 | 34 | 479 | 79.83 | Gold
    6 | Ryomei Sugai | Japan | 100 | 67 | 100 | 100 | 62 | 46 | 475 | 79.17 | Gold
    7 | Ditbul Ban | Republic of Korea | 100 | 67 | 70 | 100 | 62 | 75 | 474 | 79.00 | Gold
    8 | Ashley Aragorn Khoo | Singapore | 100 | 37 | 100 | 100 | 89 | 46 | 472 | 78.67 | Gold
    9 | Zixiang Zhou | Canada | 100 | 37 | 100 | 100 | 100 | 33 | 470 | 78.33 | Gold
    10 | Harris Leung | Hong Kong | 100 | 100 | 70 | 100 | 0 | 75 | 445 | 74.17 | Gold

    12 | Siyong Huang | USA | 100 | 37 | 70 | 100 | 62 | 71 | 440 | 73.33 | Gold
    17 | Timothy Feng | USA | 100 | 37 | 30 | 100 | 89 | 58 | 414 | 69.00 | Gold
    32 | Allen Pei | Canada | 67 | 37 | 70 | 100 | 62 | 21 | 357 | 59.50 | Silver
    44 | Christopher Trevisan | Canada | 38 | 37 | 70 | 100 | 62 | 33 | 340 | 56.67 | Silver
    47 | Richard Qi | USA | 11 | 100 | 15 | 100 | 89 | 21 | 336 | 56.00 | Silver
    106 | Thomas Guo | Canada | 11 | 37 | 70 | 100 | 11 | 33 | 262 | 43.67 | Bronze

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  48. GMC says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Totally agree and if I may add – the US has had an Unlimited — very Unlimited amount of money pushed into into just the right places , the right hands, the right agenda’s, etc. in order to make all this ultra rich ” prosperity” – magically happen. The financial markets of the US were opened to foreign investors, governments, oligarchs, and they showed up a long time ago. Hell, if you had money in the rigged market in the past 10 years , you sure aren’t going to make any waves to bring the corrupt USA into an Honest country club atmosphere . You are going to go for mo money. And this applies to all the folks in the USA that has made bundles off the market – they won’t make any waves.
    All this correlates with sending your kids to school here or hopping the border to the ” Promised Land” = more migrations. Why was Taiwan so ahead of Mainland China before – Money and foreign influence. Thanks

  49. @dux.ie

    Yep, I’ve seen similar data for many companies including Apple.

    Right now the top innovators at Apple are close to 50% Asian.

    Also, I don’t see anyone else here noticing that “Asian” is a pretty f’ing broad category. If you are trying to measure East Asian or Chinese intelligence or creativity or whatever, why are you including all Southeast and South Asians?

    East Asian or Chinese Americans make up less than 1/3 of all Asians, Chinese specifically I believe are 25% of all ‘Asians’ in the US.

    Lastly, you have to wonder whether these stats would even imply anything about China or other East Asian countries. In America you have to be far more assertive and dominant, when among your countrymen in China though things are far easier genetically on you and you’re not going to be excluded for being less of a victim (or an asshole) than the average Indian or perhaps even White.

    • Replies: @dux.ie
  50. dux.ie says:
    @It's Ovrer

    The legacy Chinese Americans are mostly Cantonese with unique spelling of their surnames which are different from the more recent standardized spelling from mainland China, watch out those surname that start with Q, X or Z. Thus by comparing the ratio from the two regions from the US Census sample and the company innovators, it is very clear that most of the innovators are recent Chinese mainland immigrants.

  51. @Tor597

    It is impossible to predict, but whites still absolutely dominate all the fundamental breakthroughs anywhere, and Asians, especially China, are, in my opinion highly overrated:

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Troll: Xi-jinping
    • Replies: @DNS
    , @Xi-jinping
  52. @Blinky Bill

    How it’s relationship with the US develops will shape the destiny’s of both these countries and not for the better IMHO.

    In other words, no matter how that relationship develops, no good can come of it?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  53. RogerL says:

    I didn’t see anybody mention that the native americans had almost as many innovators as the black people did, and the native american population is far smaller than the black population. An interesting aspect to this is that native americans are basically east Asians.

    An additional factor is that when dealing with complex systems, a person who has spent their life focusing on holistic, right brain thinking has a huge advantage over a person who has spent their life focusing on linear, left brain thinking. The euroamerican culture is heavily focused on left brain thinking and a native american worldview is very right brain oriented.

    When dealing with complex systems, left brain thinking leads you into all kinds of dead-end and mistaken conclusions. Right brain thinking helps you see webs of interdependencies, and complex flows of causes and effects.

    Left-brain thinking just isn’t very effective with complexity that is the equivalent to 3-dimensional braided river systems. Clicking on the pictures on this page to expand them, and looking at the details of the braiding, will help you visualize what I’m talking about:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braided_river

    In east Asia, what are the cultural biases and preferences on right brain vs. left brain thinking?

    I don’t have any idea, and also don’t know why I haven’t wondered about that before.

  54. @dux.ie

    Dominance in:

    > Marginal improvements to existing technological paradigms
    > Yet another cognitive ability test with clearly defined success parameters (get number close to 100)

    Thanks for proving the point.

    Chinese are good at accumulating social status at the personal level (grades, patents, salary, etc.), and are likely to dominate a technologically stagnant world as a country. This is not a diss, many peoples can’t boast even of this.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    , @It’s Over
    , @RogerL
  55. angmoh says:

    East asians being rich and embracing universalist enlightenment culture is a 50 year-old phenomenon at best (Japan) and realistically mostly younger. This data is interesting, but it doesn’t justify strong conclusions on inherent creativity or whatever. Too much demographic and cultural noise.

    Sure, personality traits do vary – but g is the prime mover. I expect East asians will prove themselves plenty innovative as long as the conditions allow it.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  56. @A123

    Soros is probably one of the Hungarians (he’s Ashkenazi Jewish, in case anyone didn’t know), the other two are probably Thomas Peterffy and Charles Simonyi, afaik both gentiles.

  57. Not US and not innovation-related, but from what I hear, all kinds of people (in terms of social status and maybe intelligence) in HK are moving to England. What’s interesting is the occasional downward mobility, even university graduates are filling menial jobs and McJobs (Not part time alongside studying, full time). I’m not sure if this is about structural job market changes because of COVID (that isn’t well noticed in HK) or what, but this is really something intriguing.

  58. Passer by says:
    @Alfa158

    But in the total sample of innovators living in the US, asians are the most innovative group, as figure 5 shows. Which means that due to the way current immigration policies are going, asians are defacto the most innovative group per capita in the US, whether someone likes it, or not.

    Now, this would change if more european migrants were imported. On the other hand the category “asians” includes many non-east asian people. So i would say that the innovation rates of east asians in both samples are probably equal or very close to those of whites.

  59. @Yellowface Anon

    I think this is probably the same dynamic as fairly educated East Europeans cleaning toilets in the UK.

  60. Passer by says:
    @AaronB

    Well, American Asians have much higher levels of education and much higher rates of representation at elite unis than American Whites.

    Weren’t they complaining that they are severely discriminated by top US Universities? Ron Unz has an article on that.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
  61. @Passer by

    Wasn’t the richest self-made russian woman korean btw?

    She is also married to a Jew

  62. Svevlad says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    East Asians tend to be “turtlers” – they innovate slowly, but at a steady pace.

    The fact there’s craptons of them might have an effect. Innovations tend to shake up the order of things, not so good in such hyper-populated places…

    Hypothetically, if let’s say some sort of disaster were to, let’s say, wipe out half the population of China, I’d say their innovation would speed up despite that.

  63. Passer by says:
    @AaronB

    whereas American Whites represent the full spectrum of human types, down to tree logger and construction worker.

    The same pattern seems to be repeated when it comes to first generation immigrants from Asia and Europe.

    The US actually imports high quality european migrants, with far higher innovation rate than the average US whites.

  64. @silviosilver

    The basic problem with the relationship is that it provides the US with hostile immigrants while it serves to make India more liberal and Sinophobic. There are positive aspects to the relationship, particularly for India, but net both societies are harmed.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
    • Replies: @silviosilver
  65. Rahan says:
    @Passer by

    Chinese women combine the:
    1) “I’m just a soft cute little princess” romanticism of Eastern Asia in general, with the
    2) business acumen of the trad Chinese overlapping with that of India’s Forward Castes, and
    3) the actual (as supposed to globohomo imaginary) emancipation of women that happens after a brutal period of Stalinism.

    The latter is very important. Today for example Eastern European women appear “trad” to some disillusioned Westerners, but this “tradness” is combined with a supreme self-confidence that seems to them completely self-evident. There was never a moment in living memory in which in Eastern Europe someone could credibly claim that women can’t do math or physics or manage a factory.

    In commie times this objective emancipation existed side by side with a “puritan” framework of “don’t be a slut” and “you’re 23 and not yet married?! OMG!!!” This has now changed over the last 30 years, but the post-Stalinist self-confidence remains. A post-Stalinist woman knows she’s physically weaker than the average male and this is just a fact of life, but she also knows she can achieve almost anything a man can outside of hard sports and military stuff, if she really wants to.

    The two great 1970s classics of Soviet romantic comedy/dramas “Workplace Romance” and “Moscow Does not Believe in Tears” are to a large extent about middle-aged women who have gone in too deep into being directors, and have forgotten what it’s like to be feminine, until the right man comes along and reminds them that they also have a side that wants to be given flowers and taken care of, and in turn wants to cook for her man and be pretty for him.

    Translated versions the films on pornsites, which I think is hilarious. The Soviet flick lover hath no boundaries.
    https://daftsex.com/watch/-194609372_456245129
    https://adult.noodlemagazine.com/watch/449254883_456239343

    This is what separates eastern white women from western white women, the assumed since childhood self-evident confidence as opposed to constant histrionic attempts to prove something to someone, and this is also what separates the modern urban Chinese woman from her South Korean and Japanese counterparts. In Korea and Japan there is still great tension between the pre-modern traditional and modern industrial/capitalist social mechanisms. A girl gets married there, she has to know by heart who she bows to first during a meeting with the extended family, and who open the door for whom in any social situation. A maze of subtle hierarchies.

    In today’s Russia or China they may play at trad stuff sometimes, but it’s just larping. Nor the real thing like Korea or Japan.

    In modern China women combine being fluffy infantile “cute Asian princesses persona” with the calm self-assurance and self-belief of the Eastern European post-Stalinist woman who would love being pampered by a sugar daddy, but is more than capable of handling everything herself if she has to.

  66. songbird says:

    A few days back, I was passing through the state of New Hampshire. It is a state in which in my deep youth, I only recall seeing one black person – and he on vacation in the closest border region. Anyway, I have long since seen many black Africans thrown right into the heart of the deepest countryside. People who look like they just spat out their khat, dropped their bloody machete or set down their AK-47, for a moment somewhere out of view, and are still shivering from malaria.

    But I was passing through a point where someone mentioned to me that they were particularly shocked by the amount of diverse immigrants. And I swear I saw two Mizrahi (Yemeni?) Jews, which really shocked me to my core. Off the top of my head, by now, I think I have seen every group but Papuans and Abos. And the military is flying illegals direct into the whitest states.

    It seems to me that the future of the US is extremely fucked, and idealizing immigrant entrepreneurs contributed to it in a big way. Whatever their benefit, they are part of something really messed up and evil. They are the poster boys for complete ethnic displacement.

  67. @Passer by

    Either the same type of positive discrimination where Asians are on the same boat as Whites, or it is anti-Chinese and mixed with geopolitics

  68. @Yellowface Anon

    People are not good at comparing lifestyles across countries statistically, especially when it intersects with class

    No one wants to move to Hong Kong to be ordinary middle class, unless young, single and really then, they’re just educated elite class in waiting.

    Yet plenty will move to the UK for precisely that.

    I also know young Latin American professionals, who could work in international corporate jobs back home, where their globalised wages would interact very favourably with the local inequality, allowing them domestic servants and other luxuries, but who happily live in Europe on minimum wage.

    I suspect that a big part of the reason for sluggish European economic growth in recent decades is that GDP figures only capture a portion of valued activity. Everyone likes to complain about not having enough money, but most Europeans show that they have other priorities through their actions. Everyone in Europe can live pretty well if they want, with little GDP growing effort, so they create societies richer in other ways.

    After food, shelter, clothing, some gizmos and the odd holiday, what would anyone sensible prioritise? Would they pick the fanciest restaurants over being invited round to interesting friends’ places for dinner?

    When people live in areas that combine economic plenty with the security required to allow them to prioritise what they really consider important, they appreciate it.

    Sometimes very online and very political people forget this, as they forget that idle complaining and protesting nonsense, is a luxury good too. It tends to go up in proportion to how how easy people have it, though shocks downwards, can temporarily heighten it.

    Perhaps if Hong Kong had a less densely populated hinterland, that wasn’t populated by people in the grip of mindless materialism, its people, who are looking for a fuller life, would move there too?

    I doubt the mainland Chinese will remain the way they are for more than a few decades, but catching up from a GDP of $10K will take a while, and, in the meantime, there’s little substitute for furious all-consuming effort.

    Europeans can be glad that their ancestors already did that suffering for them.

    Perhaps Europeans might also show some gratitude to those ancestors by not throwing away their inheritance on political and moral fads.

  69. AaronB says:
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Excellent comment.

    People unfortunately get trapped in a “competitive” mindset, where they or their group being “superior” is more important than enjoying life and having enough. It’s an age old problem – the solving of which, if possible, may be said to usher in the Golden Age. Ultimately it is based on the illusion of Separation.

    The Europeans have figured out how to live – for which they are mocked by the “ambitious” Americans as “decadent”.

    The world needs to move toward the European model (which itself isn’t perfect). Unfortunately there is an attempt to elevate the Chinese model instead, which is a primitive, backward looking system (understandable as a phase China must pass through but hardly a model for the world).

    But I don’t think this attempt will bear fruit.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  70. Aedib says:

    Also, most Hispanics would likely be white Hispanics. There are Panchitos winning a Nobel Price?

  71. @songbird

    You can’t reverse these, but you can set up a bunch of ethno-states, have population exchanges and let these states decide if immigrants (now homogeneous in each of these states) should come or not. This is super effective after the break-up of the USSR where even Russian immigrants to the Baltics, Kazakhstan, etc. went back to Russia.

    Abolish jus soli and set a long ancestral condition for neutralization, say your ancestors settled here 3-5 generations ago, except for the types of immigrants needed to maintain ethnic homogeneity.

    • Replies: @songbird
  72. @Rahan

    You combine all of this, and the product is even fewer children than their white sisters.

    Joseon Hell.

    • Replies: @Rahan
  73. @Triteleia Laxa

    No one wants to move to Hong Kong to be ordinary middle class, unless young, single and really then, they’re just educated elite class in waiting.

    Yet plenty will move to the UK for precisely that.

    Some background info if you don’t know that: You are right on immigration to HK, most immigrants are either Mainland Chinese professionals and “大媽”s (mommas) who “steal” jobs from locals (similar dynamics to Russians moving to Soviet Estonia). Either high or low, but not in the middle. Children learn Mandarin in schools no matter you are local or not, so you can’t tell them apart.

    HK’s emigration to Britain is part livelihood (housing bubble pushing living costs way high), part make-believe politics (UK “helps” HK and Anglo-American neocolonialism is “good” for the place they’ve just left).

    as they forget that idle complaining and protesting nonsense, is a luxury good too. It tends to go up in proportion to how how easy people have it

    Sure, they can say the usual protest slogans outlawed under Hong Kong’s NatSec law, and bash China as much as they want. Also British imperial “prestige” (I’m not being ironical) and the belonging to the Anglosphere.

    Perhaps if Hong Kong had a less densely populated hinterland, that wasn’t populated by people in the grip of mindless materialism, its people, who are looking for a fuller life, would move there too?

    HK’s hinterland (which is Pearl River Delta) includes Guangzhou, that never looked like the Dongbei of Late Qing times, and it is now as packed and soulless as HK.

    After 1898 the British “rented” Nee Territories for 99 years and they were mostly filled up after WWII up to the 90s.

    • Thanks: Triteleia Laxa
  74. @AaronB

    Thanks. It always reminds me of when feminists drone on about representation in the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies. As if that makes any difference to the lives of women.

    It is mostly just shame and other forms of self-deluding social performance.

    I notice though, that it does make sense for those at the very top. President Xi, for example, wants his toy to grow and develop more features. Luckily for China, they do need this big effort for now.

    It also makes sense for distressed individuals, who have no love for their own life; but for everyone else, it is just a hassle and an empty meal, that they kind of feel they have to pretend is important.

    Were I in charge, I suppose I too would want everyone below me, to scurry about, bringing glory to my role.

    We recognise the pyramids as both amazing and inhumane, and even cynically laugh at the Egyptians for being tricked by the Pharaohs to slave away for their glory, yet we are told we must all sacrifice to build the far greater pyramid of our GDP.

    The worst part of this reification of GDP as a proxy for elite class glory, is that GDP can only be increased by economic transactions; which are therefore encouraged to be substituted for all other manner of transactions.

    Thankfully, most people are pretty good at ignoring this, except for striving metropolitan journalists, who can read the words I am writing, but don’t actually understand them.

    Journalists are often too deep in shame, anxiously ruminating over their potential “failure” in adding to the glory.

    • Agree: AaronB
  75. Economic growth is only needed due to population growth. Stop all immigration – legal and otherwise – for 10 years. Magically, population growth ceases. No need for innovation.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
  76. Svevlad says:
    @Reverend Goody

    Exactly. We shouldn’t go for infinite growth.

    Once the demographic transition hits, we actually should downscale the economy. It’s the era of getting rid of the bloat, of trimming the fat, of the elimination of the useless economic subjects. Quality over quantity.

    Therefore, when the next growth phase hits, the “survivors” will grow and be stronger than if this wasn’t done. Sadly we’re doing the opposite.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
  77. DNS says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    A lot of those types of Youtubers seem to be quite annoyed at the fact that white worship in China has declined ever since it became more and more prosperous, hence they are now going into full Gordon Chang mode, making a nice buck from convincing people that China is just one big Potemkin village.

    [MORE]

    Also, you seem to be getting at an old idea.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  78. Rahan says:
    @Wignat is a slur

    Welp, the lowest fertility is in trad South Korea and Taiwan, and allegedly trad places like Italy and Greece.
    https://statisticstimes.com/demographics/countries-by-fertility-rate.php

    The general plummeting of fertility across the white and yellow world is mostly due to the “behavioral sink/rat utopia” effect — crowding people into cities until the mammalian overcrowding program kicks in and they turn into psychotic trannies.
    https://www.returnofkings.com/36915/what-humans-can-learn-from-the-mice-utopia-experiment
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/

    Half of South Korea lives in Greater Seoul for example and it shows.

    Difference being that in the West the manifestations of the behavioral sink are actively encouraged, almost mandated, and the Great Reset is set to try to amplify this a hundredfold. Globohomo wages war against the small-town sane provincials with self-govt and existing social structures, as it wants a society based entirely of crazed atomized urban proles crowded into concrete hives.

    Under late stage Soviet communism in general in EE a general anomie malaise also kicked in, which then intensified in the “roaring 1990s” during the transition.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
  79. @songbird

    A future so bright I’ve got to wear shades.

    On the plus side, if this model ever goes up in flames, others will hopefully learn. Us most of all.

    The visualization on the Somalia was beautiful. I saw African beggar boys at a pizza hut, and a very annoyed East Indian who thought he had left that nonsense behind ages ago. Having dealt with hordes of beggar children, I understood.

    • Agree: songbird
  80. Dmitry says:

    non-Asian minority) immigrant

    “Asians” is not a very internally homogeneous category.

    Cultural differences between Asian nationalities, is greater than in Europe – and in Europe, we know that all national stereotypes of e.g. Germans, can be inverted a few hundred kilometres away in the Balkans.

    Comparing Japanese and Chinese (North Chinese, South Chinese?), is already talking about very different national situations, more distant apart than comparing Germans and Bulgarians, or Greeks and Norwegians. And although there are ties of South Asian nationalities to East Asia by religion, the connection between South Asia and East Asia look like even more thin strings than those connecting the different nationalities of East Asian.

    Compared to Europe, there is in Asia greater lack of synchonization in terms of the countries’ historical stage or development level. If Japan was in terms of development stage like a 21st century Western country, then historical vicissitudes have delayed China by another century, and many aspects of Indian life resemble still the 19th century if not earlier ages.

    predicted from its national IQ.

    “IQ tests” seem to measure peoples’ ability to culturally conform and be malleable to modern bureaucratic procedure. Many IQ tests do not have true or false answers, but almost all require the test-taker to confirm and standardize themselves to a social expectation that is regarded as the “true answer”.

    People’s conformism to this kind of paperwork itself will correlate to the urbanization and industrialization level in a country – indicating something like a industrial or postindustrial historical stage in their behaviour. Although to call a behaviour found typically in industrialized countries, a “predictor” of the country’s development is mere hypebeasting.

    In some case, a country can have a mentally industrialized and urbanized population, and yet remain or fall into poverty, and in other cases a country can reach higher incomes without large parts of a population requiring the mental adjustments required for industrialization and urbanization.

    If we wanted to support or disprove a claim about “IQ tests predicting national income” – the issue is that both must vary by historical time, so the most important thing is to specify what historical time you sample the “IQ tests” and what historical time the national income is being sample.

    You can say that the prediction might be for an average of multi-year income across , although then to that extent it loses its value for us as a predictor.

    If I need to write this more clearly. For judging the prediction of “IQ tests predicting income”, is the correct year for selection 1960, when Italy was close to Mexico, or 1984 when it is similar to Germany? Or are we supposed to average across all the past years?

    In times of high economic growth, this choice of the year will be more arbitrary, than in times of low economic growth. But if the year for selection of the prediction is some kind of multiyear average, then the information value of the prediction becomes lower.

    If IQ tests in 1960, might predict Italy will reach closer to Germany than Mexico by 1970. But then it did not predict the national income in 1960.

    Income in China was far lower than Mexico in both 1960 and 1980, but in 2021 they are similar. So when there is a such a change, what year is the prediction judged by (1960, 1980, 2021) and why would one year be more valuable than another year? Alternatively, you would be claiming about a multiyear average.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  81. Passer by says:
    @Rahan

    Honestly “communist” China has more restrictions on women compared to the West or SK/Japan, for example you can not legally have a child unless you officially marry and they have divorce restrictions, where divorce may take years and may be rejected by the state. Then there is the idea that it is mostly men that should own homes, which led to chinese men making a killing in the real estate market. Or the dropping female labor force participation rate, which dropped to japanese levels.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  82. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    structurally naive & reductionist. IQ

    But it was one of the common pieces of furniture that could be found in mid-20th century American mind, and therefore its cultural importance cannot be denied. Historical naiveté required for belief in its importance, is likely one part reason for its popularity and multidecade appeal.

    A trend of mid -20th century American life was a hostility to slow and patient study of historical texts and immersion into foreign languages, and there was a wider demand for “quick and practical solutions”. Standardized testing was also used to filter employees for positions requiring bureaucratic office work, as well as for quick sorting of the military recruits.

    I’m not saying this is the only reason for its popularity (there are more deep and historically interesting reasons we could discuss), but it’s one of the more easy to notice reasons for why it was “trending”.


    A slow and patient historian will understand the radical mental changes that were required to be internalized by English workers, between the 18th and 19th century – as they transitioned from majority agricultural workers, to an industrial labour force that needed to understand modern timekeeping.

    For example, most English workers of the 18th century, had never seen a clock, and their concept of time-discipline was determined by seasonal factors. Whereas by the early 20th century, workers had organized according to strict time discipline, and even in absence of individual access to clocks they had formed communal time-keeping methods (for example, a person with a clock, would keep time for their neighbours).

    For a 20th century American immigration debate, one of the quick ways to determine the suitability of nationalities to adapt to a country, will be to apply arguments from standardized testing, and they would indeed be somewhat correct (mental industrialization of nationalities can require generations). Standardized testing could be used to show that English industrial workers would adapt to an American factory more easily than Irish agricultural workers.

    Similarly, if you were sorting recruits in the army, and you need to find the literate people who can work as a secretary, of course the standardized test will save you a lot of time and energy.

    Perhaps the person who fails standardized test, will have skills in other areas of life, and be excellent at fishing or gardening – but the purpose of “intelligence” for the 20th century industry, has been redefined for instrumental purposes of filtering a recruit for a particular kind of papershuffling modern labour that is required.

    math Olympiads & similar (con)test are to be dismissed (on the contrary), but I wouldn’t give too much weight to it.

    In nationalities’ which have been acculturated to status signalling behaviour, then these kinds of medal become useful, and the prestige of formal disciplines is particularly high for industrializing countries.

    “IQ” had such a mystical attribute for office-work based 20th century American culture.

    For example, Biden seems to envisage it like he was talking about the performance of his car. See him at 0:40 in video below.

    In this way, Trump was refreshingly non-industrialized to me, as he talked about the size of his hands (which is a kind of discussion which would have attracted people more in pre-industrial societies – for example, Trump’s boasting about his hand size was probably literally accepted, and without innuendo, as an indication of his right to be a leader by people in Middle East).

    Sadly of course, non-industrialized aspects of Trump’s behaviour, was more result of being a hereditary boss of a family business who never had to conform to employment reviews, rather than being a Bedouin chieftain, or other “noble savage”.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
  83. @Bardon Kaldian

    Look you do have a point. Chinese and E. Asians have not shown up in proportion at elite pure math as indicated by top prize winners:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Prize_in_Mathematics
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel_Prize
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal

    and elite faculties
    https://www.math.harvard.edu/peoples-categories/professors-senior-faculty/

    Olympiads require a lot of computational horsepower. But breakthroughs in pure math and theoretical physics require M/V balance. Hence in past you have Aristotle, Descartes, Newton who contributed to both humanities and science. Von Neumann was an expert in Byzantine history.

    White/jews are also disproportionately eccentrics and flamboyants, consider the two main contributors to the proof of Poincaré Conjecture—
    Grisha Perelman: turns down 1 million Millennium Prize and Fields Medal. Quits math. Also has this rumor

    Satoshi Nakamoto = Grigori perelman from CryptoCurrency

    Richard Hamilton: surfers tan, constantly brings up his ex-gfs

    Then there’s Alexander Grothendieck, monumental contribution to algebraic geometry, along with Christian mysticism, and the 1000 page meditation Récoltes et Semailles. Last year in recluse in the Pyrenees

    Shing-Tung Yau is one of only 2 Chinese Fields Medalist and maybe the only Chinese mathematician with somewhat of a personality (he was head of youth gang in HK). Then again he’s known as somewhat of an oriental despot over his disciples, perhaps inhibiting their creativity.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  84. holy damn. that report is huge, and really detailed.

    math olympiad doesn’t matter and is irrelevant though. not sure why people reference this non-event. would be like bringing up NCAA baseball results in every sports discussion. it’s about 95% try hards who then go on to do nothing. while the real guys were busy doing something else.

  85. @DNS

    The World’s 3 Leading Western Sinologists

    All Western China Watchers follow their work religiously.

    [MORE]

    • LOL: Xi-jinping
    • Replies: @Wignat is a slur
    , @Svevlad
  86. Thomm says:

    The Regeneron science prize is a good indicator as well, as there are 40 finalists each year :

    Although the fact that 40-45% of the finalists are women makes me question the selection criteria for both merit and rigor, even if the ethnic/racial distribution is exactly what one would expect. Most of the white finalists appear to be Jewish, going off of their names.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Passer by
  87. Thomm says:

    I am of the opinion that Math Olympiads, like spelling bees, are very inadequate indicators of career success in adulthood. Those contests tests only very narrow, specialized skillsets that don’t really matter much in the adult workforce.

    The Regeneron science prize is far better as an indicator of future career success. In addition to my comment above, here is the full website :

    https://www.societyforscience.org/regeneron-sts/2021-finalists/

    Out of 40 finalists, there appear to be :

    16 East Asians
    10 South Asians
    1 black girl
    13 ‘whites’, but these are mostly Jewish, with a white Hispanic thrown in. Only one WASP kid, going off of the names.

    No Southeast Asians (Filipino, Viet, etc.). No Mestizos. One WASP out of 13 ‘whites’. One black girl as a super outlier. She is jet black, so possibly a child of African immigrants.

    • Replies: @utu
  88. @Blinky Bill

    It’s very difficult to respect the foreign nation your wife is from

    • Replies: @songbird
  89. Svevlad says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Yeah, because the average is an idiotic imbecile.

    All their videos consist of “wah wah China is improving and that’s BAD because they dislike soyadeen like myself”

  90. utu says:
    @Thomm

    How living in China changed my view on Trump and US politics: Californian native (Feb 2021)

  91. utu says:
    @Thomm

    The surprising truth of open defecation in India | Sangita Vyas | TEDxWalledCity

    Every day 500 million people in India go out to defecate in the fields.

    • Replies: @Thomm
  92. songbird says:
    @Yellowface Anon

    I think there are a lot of logical, peaceful solutions that could help pull us from the path that we are on, even now, but it is hard to see any of them even being allowed to be aired, let alone instituted.

  93. songbird says:
    @Wignat is a slur

    Lol. What is the ethnicity of the China Uncensored guy? Is he happa? If anyone has insight on it, I’d like to know.

    I consider Serpentza scum because he will shill the “China is racist against Africans” message, even though he fled South Africa. Like Musk, he has the classic mixed Boer phenotype, where you can see just a hint of the Hottentot and Malay.

    C-Milk I think could benefit from a soy-vaccine.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  94. @Rahan

    The last female Russian mathematician or physicist of note was Sofia Kovalevskaya.

    Have you even seen Moscow Doesn’t Believe in Tears? The point is that while a strong woman is certainly better than a weak man who doesn’t fulfil his obligations, what she really needs and wants to do is submit to a real man.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Rahan
  95. Thomm says:
    @utu

    I’m not a South Asian, and have never been there. Even Ron Unz admitted that he made that up just to see if you WN wiggers will believe anything. Remember, that is the true purpose of this website.

    But your obsession with feces is consistent with your admitted homosexuality. There is an entire colony of South Asians living in your head, which means they are literally shitting in your head, which you seem to enjoy.

    We all remember that you said that you would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman, since race loyalty trumps sexual orientation in your view. You were asked this question multiple times, and each time, you refused to say that you prefer women over men.

    That is why we don’t let you degenerates into normal, heterosexual society. 55% of white women voted for Trump, but zero are found in WN wigger circles.

    Now get off my lawn, faggot!

    Heh heh heh heh

  96. AaronB says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    The question is – does a real man want a woman to submit to him?

    Who wishes to dominate – people with inner confidence, or people without it?

    Personally, I don’t enjoy dominating others. I enjoy interacting with people. I enjoy people with full flavored personalities. But I make no claim to being a real man. I am merely a man.

    We always ask what women want. But I prefer asking what men want – and not only real men. Men should dare to be a little selfish.

    If women want to submit, I see no reason to cater to that if it’s tedious and no fun. I want to enjoy the relationship too, and I don’t enjoy people submitting to me.

    I enjoy being nice to people. Supposedly, women don’t like nice guys. Well, I’m too selfish to care. Got to look after your own interests.

  97. Passer by says:
    @Thomm

    Actually it is precisely 50/50 % male/female ratio, i guess “someone” lacks number imagination? : )

    • Replies: @Passer by
  98. Passer by says:
    @Passer by

    Actually its 21 guys and 19 girls, after checking the link. I have no suspicions then. : )

  99. @Dmitry

    That’s a subtle set of observations. I enjoyed reading them, so thank you! I particularly like this point:

    “IQ tests” seem to measure peoples’ ability to culturally conform and be malleable to modern bureaucratic procedure.

    I can easily imagine a sky-high IQ person hating modern bureaucratic procedure, yet finding it easy to navigate. The practice of modern life will therefore improve IQ scores, but, I feel, only at the upper-average and below. Bureaucracy is not challenging enough to help above that.

    I wonder if any readers ever ask themselves “after all of life’s little games, what comes next?”

  100. @mal

    Europeans have higher risk tolerance

    Not really. I think this attitude is evident in European vs Asian approaches to life. Euros are more concerned about ‘being safe’ vs Asians. This indicates a lower risk tolerance and extends to business as well.

    As an aside, I think Operation Paperclip guys contributed more to American technological might than the rich fat cats.

    Innovation is driven more by government military projects than by individuals. This is why the claim that ‘capitalism breeds innovation’ is false.

    Lets take a few historical examples – Silicon valley was heavily funded by DARPA and other US government agencies as a way to decentralize and have many parallel research operations going. Those technologies developed for military purposes by DARPA where thereafter pushed into the commercial space and modified to make them more palatable for commercial consumption.

    Another example is NASA – the space race forced a rapid leap forward in material science and computing technologies. This material science (for example designing cloth that is resistant to high temperatures) was then used in everything from tent fabric (expensive tents are fire resistant) to phone production.

    Another example is the innovation that occurred in the USSR – it was mostly driven by national institutes (due to its position as a “Garrison State”) rather than private enterprise leading to the production of Sputnik, the first space suits or even fully automated buran rocketry or hemodynamic machines for cardiac surgery.

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/foreign-war-has-not-made-america-garrison-state-189023

    Modern China also sees most of its innovation driven by SOEs rather than private enterprise.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  101. Wency says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    One more observation: mathematical prodigies tend to be dumb people outside of their god-given gifts. Like they lack half a brain.

    I recall reading a piece once from a guy at a hedge fund who was in charge of trying to find talent to be “rocket scientists” on Wall Street. He guessed that it was roughly 50/50 when it came to math geniuses — half of them pretty much couldn’t apply math to anything in the real world, while half of them were reasonably good at it. He recalled one Ph.D. who was considered a top mind in some field of pure math, but he was utterly incurious about the real world and when it came to application, this guy would have struggled at word problems aimed at a 5th grader.

  102. @Bardon Kaldian

    Dude you’re quoting laowhy and serpenteza on china *facepalm*. That instantly discredits anything you say on the matter

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  103. @Yellowface Anon

    This is more related to cargo culting of the West and lingering cultural perceptions of the UK being a colonial superpower with mainland China bein an underdeveloped backwater.

    HKers figure that moving to UK gives them greater social status than being part of the ‘unwashed mainland’ totally ignoring the fact that Shenzen is almost as rich (and nicer) than HK for example. They have quite a culture shock when they arrive to the UK though as it does not fit what they are used to and their romanticized and outdated expectations of what it is like living in the UK.

    I believe it is mostly about percieved status. Just like Russians/Ukrainians wanting to be more ‘European’ or Russian youth being more aligned with the West.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
  104. @dux.ie

    Qualcom and Nvidia bought lot of mobile phone patents from the mobile phone consultancies around Cambridge in the UK (who also worked with Huawei).

  105. @Triteleia Laxa

    “I suspect that a big part of the reason for sluggish European economic growth in recent decades is that GDP figures only capture a portion of valued activity.”

    no. they just have high tax rates, and don’t want to work hard. that’s it. that’s all there is to it. they don’t want to put in 45 hours a week. they want 35 hours a week, and not being fired for being lazy. worker efficiency is lower. after 1 year, they are 500 hours behind in work. every year, cumulatively. bad employees stick around. and high achievers are disincentivized by having half their earnings taken away so useless bureaucrats can have nice lifestyles. gigafactory Germany versus gigafactory Texas should be instructive. and that’s Germany, maybe the best country in europe to do this kind of stuff.

    there are other minor factors like everybody speaks a different language which slows things down, and there is less space and fewer mineral resources, which slows things down. but the main issue is they deliberately work less hard and have high tax rates. you don’t move TO europe to innovate. generally you want to leave.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Beckow
    , @silviosilver
  106. AaronB says:
    @prime noticer

    GDP figures only capture a portion of valued activity

    =

    They don’t want to put in 45 hours a week. they want 35 hours a week.

    Not working hard, and spending time on leisure, is valued activity that GDP does not capture.

    Europe has got it figured out better than us.

  107. Beckow says:
    @prime noticer

    …they just have high tax rates, and don’t want to work hard

    And who wants to work hard? Most people who constantly talk about how much they want to work hard do stuff that no normal society would consider work. They delegate and boss others around, spend their time sitting and pontificating on what others should do and how to make things more efficient – they are classical parasites and speculators, people who in normal societies would be despised.

    Work is the activity that nobody wants to do – that’s how you define work, that’s why people get paid. The hustler class that boasts about working 60+ hours a week is boasting about their own greed and pretence, they don’t do work.

    Regarding tax rates, Europeans pay on average 35-40%, Americans 30%. But at least in Europe people get something back for their taxes – full medical, free higher education, pensions, sports for their kids, etc… What do Americans get? global military adventures, Washington bureaucrats, foreign aid for others. If you add what an average American pays for medical premiums and for education it is quite a bit more than the 5-10% average differential in taxes. But I guess they can watch their military scrambling out of Afghanistan after spending 1 trillion there, so it must be worth it….

    • Agree: anyone with a brain
  108. @Anatoly Karlin

    That’s cute, just conveniently ignore his post right above the one you responded to.

    If being overrepresented by a factor of 10 at the most dominant tech companies (at the highest level of innovators at those tech companies) is marginal improvement on existing tech, then what the hell are the whites doing?

    Just less marginal improvement over pre existing technologies? Big woop. Then the Asians are the most innovative people today.

    If you broke that down to just East Asians or Chinese, then that overrepresentation might be 30x or 50x. Indians aren’t nearly as overrepresented as Chinese at the top innovative level.

  109. @Thomm

    Seems like a pretty gay question to ask, or one a 15-year old would. I figured you’re not East Indian because they tend not to speak like you do. Also, labeling every racial nationalist a homosexual seems like a pretty bitch cope to me, but whatever, we all have our justifications for our sides.

    Interesting point on Regeneron, aside.

    • Replies: @Thomm
  110. @Thorfinnsson

    That’s how things stand today, but I was inquiring about the “no matter how it develops” aspect of the relationship, which I thought was a bizarre thing to insinuate by someone who normally strikes me as levelheaded.

    Regarding your point, as China grows stronger, I think India will care less about liberalizing and America will care less about pressuring her to. I suppose it’ll be a bit like the Cold War era, in which America was perfectly willing to ally with rightwing authoritarian regimes. And even now, India is going in a more authoritarian direction.

    My great hope is these trends will cause American elites to put the brakes on ‘woke’ insanity. Candidate Trump in 2015 said something about being unable to afford the luxury of PC, which was well received by Republican voters, so as the cost of these idiotic “luxury beliefs” mounts, perhaps more and more people will abandon them.

  111. @AaronB

    I figure the world should have room for both. Reward strivers, punish those who deserve it, but offer room to rest and pursue personal interests.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  112. @Beckow

    Most people who constantly talk about how much they want to work hard do stuff that no normal society would consider work. They delegate and boss others around, spend their time sitting and pontificating on what others should do and how to make things more efficient – they are classical parasites and speculators, people who in normal societies would be despised.

    Somebody has to organize the work that others do, and doing so is no mean feat. Managers make plenty of mistakes and one could, if one were vicious enough, characterize some of their innovations as “speculation,” but managers as parasites, just for the fact of being managers? That is such complete crap, even by the lowered standards people generally allow for your comments. And it’s also more evidence – as if any were needed – why leftards must at all costs be kept way away from economic decision-making power. (Do nothing but sit on your ass criticizing the productive efforts of other people? I think we can all tell who the real parasite is here.)

    • Replies: @Beckow
  113. @Svevlad

    This is also the prevalent thinking in Davos, but whatever measures they do, they justify their elitist position.

    And I’m afraid it is not a question of where we should go, but where our past route of development leads us to, the endpoints. Maybe Orlov’s position is the right one: Recognize the tendency of complex socio-economic systems to unravel and adapt.

  114. @Xi-jinping

    We do have emigrant FB groups who have already settled there and views their new environment from a very rosy lens.

  115. @prime noticer

    worker efficiency is lower.

    Germany actually has a slightly higher labor productivity per hour worked. So even if the average German works fewer hours, when he does work, he’s getting more done. That’s more efficient in my book.

    Other European countries are not very far behind America in this measure. So even if they tend to come down on opposite sides of the work to live/live to work question, it’s not as if there’s a night-and-day difference.

  116. @Xi-jinping

    Dude you’re quoting laowhy and serpenteza on china *facepalm*. That instantly discredits anything you say on the matter

    Lol, what’s this, hasbara with Chinese characteristics?

  117. @songbird

    Like Musk, he has the classic mixed Boer phenotype, where you can see just a hint of the Hottentot and Malay.

    It’s about time we put a Hottentot in space.

    • Replies: @songbird
  118. Pericles says:
    @Thomm

    Your boss asked me to forward this: Sanjay, get back to call center with post haste. Your quota is late.

  119. songbird says:
    @Thomm

    I’m not a South Asian

    I liked it better when you said you were “not Indian.” Like, your family had to move during the Partition, or you rejected the word since you obtained papers in America. It is a funny bit, as long as you leave a little wiggle room.

    Although, I will still allow that you might fairly reject the terms “Indian” and “South Asian”, if you have similar parentage to Kamala, who is presumably your heroine and role model, in any case.

  120. songbird says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t think Musk wants to go up, but there have been two South African astronauts (of a sort) already.

    Mark Shuttleworth, who went up as a space tourist on a Soyuz in 2002, and Mike Melvill, who piloted Branson’s SpaceShipOne in 2004. Not sure whether either has Bushmen genes. But it is an interesting question.

  121. AaronB says:
    @Boomthorkell

    Sounds good to me. I am very much in favour of allowing different personality types to follow their bliss.

    Most strivers suffer from feelings of inadequacy, and it would be cruel to deprive them of their medicine. Some strivers – misnamed – are motivated by passion, curiosity, and zest for life, a sense of adventure, and not a desire to fill an empty hole inside them or obtain mediocre security by controlling life. Calling them strivers is misleading, but they should certainly be encouraged to follow their bliss. They make life more fun for everyone.

    At the same time, people with a different metaphysic, who prefer contemplation to action, or who simply are content with little and would prefer to do what they enjoy, should be catered to.

    After all, the purpose of life is enjoyment, pleasure, fulfillment – and we must each pursue this our own way.

    A society should not have a single goal, but should be a loose collection of “tribes” coexisting amicably and cooperating for the greater good.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
  122. Beckow says:
    @silviosilver

    I was not talking about managers. I was specifically talking about the fluid class of speculators, a group of hustlers who position themselves close to flows of money – often government money. This would include a lot of so called consultants, grifters on different levels, HR do-nothings, etc… I could give you examples, but I am sure you know already. So why attack a straw man? Is that all you know how to do?

    Since you mentioned the management class, there are currently many of them who are useless – most organizations have grown too fat in the middle, even at the top. People searching for work content, pretending to work hard, usually a complete unproductive waste of time – how about that outreach-diversity-bus-development-regional-assistant-VP? Even some better known companies have them now. Are you one? Is that why it hurts your feelings?

    Your left-hatred is neither here nor there. There will never be a viable conservative society without social guarantees. If you dislike it, you are a de facto liberal whatever you choose to call yourself. The modern right has committed a political suicide once they went fully liberal. Or libertarian, the term they invented to hide who they are.

    As I said many times, libertarians are basically just liberals who are also assholes. People sense that, so it is a political dead-end. All the screaming about wokism, homos and borders won’t change that no matter how right it is.

    • Agree: anyone with a brain
    • Replies: @utu
  123. @AaronB

    “Not working hard, and spending time on leisure, is valued activity that GDP does not capture.”

    exactly backwards. they do less work, so they have less stuff. that’s literally what the numbers and statistics measure. euro poors hate when you point out that their work ethic is lower. and it is. they openly admit up front that they work to live. they don’t live to work, like people in more prosperous nations with higher GDP growth.

    there is no esoteric attempt in GDP to measure quality of life, which is harder to define. but i’ll tell you the uncomfortable truth for euro poors – they have a lower quality of life than Americans. people act like europeans take their short work weeks and 2 months vacation every year and do something really sophisticated that uncultured Americans couldn’t understand. instead what they actually do is mainly consume American produced television, movies, sports, music, and especially internet media and porn. they just get less of it, because, duh, they’re poorer.

    one of the biggest myths around is that the average european slag is any different than a generic American in their interests and daily routines. the main difference is, euro poors live in smaller houses, drive smaller slower cars or no cars at all, and don’t have AC. they own less real estate, and can afford to have less kids. all the sucky parts of America are still coming to europe. tattooos, fat people, woke politics.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Svevlad
    , @Daniel Chieh
  124. @Beckow

    “And who wants to work hard?”

    people who get shit done. generally not europeans, that’s for sure. europe is now mostly dependent on innovation from other countries with higher work ethics. you could even say they are…tech parasites, in a sense. to you use your phrase.

    it’s ok. it works for them. euro poors can sit back and absorb all the new tech that comes out of America and east asia, while they do their leisurely 30 hour work weeks and pay 50% of their paychecks to lazy bureaucrats who do zero value added stuff. VAT is ironically named.

    it’s hard to believe nations like Spain used to literally take 2 hours off in the middle of the work day to do nothing. mind boggling they could, barely, function in a global economy that way. just that mid day break alone puts them 200 hours behind every year by itself. imagine intel or TSM shutting down their fabs for 2 hours a day every weekday.

    “What do Americans get?”

    Americans get to protect lazy, pussy europeans from Russia and China. europeans are soft cowards who would just roll over for the bad guys if the US military wasn’t there. so there’s that. you know it, i know it, everybody knows it. europeans know it and take full advantage of it. they can’t even be bothered to spend on their obligated defense budgets. UK and France literally ran out of bombs and missiles after 1 week of trying to take out Libya and had to call America for backup, speaking of military adventures.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Svevlad
    , @Beckow
    , @Daniel Chieh
  125. AaronB says:
    @prime noticer

    exactly backwards. they do less work, so they have less stuff.

    But they have more free time for leisure activities, pursuing their passions, self-cultivation, spending time with friends and family, reading books, enjoying art, enjoying nature, travel.

    You can’t possibly think that “stuff” is more important than life experiences?

    they openly admit up front that they work to live. they don’t live to work.

    It is a beautiful thing. This is why they are more advanced than us, and much more advanced than China, and serve as a model for the world going forward.

    but i’ll tell you the uncomfortable truth for euro poors – they have a lower quality of life than Americans

    They have less “stuff”, but a much higher quality of life.

    people act like europeans take their short work weeks and 2 months vacation every year and do something really sophisticated

    Many travel to exotic and beautiful locations or take long hikes in nature or a country house. Many spend time with family and friends enjoying life. No doubt many spend their time on sports and TV shows.

    They are free, and can follow their bliss. They are doing what they want, and not what you want.

    This idea that the “lower classes” will “waste” their time on frivolity if given time off from work, so often used by the managerial class as an argument against giving people tree time, is one of the most absurdly arrogant and conceited arguments.

    Worse, it is a truly stupid failure of comprehension – it assumes that one must be involved in “productive” activity, and that the only reason to give people time off from work is that they would then pursue other forms of “productive” activity.

    But the argument for giving people time off from work is that many of the most worthwhile human activities have nothing to do with “productivity”.

    In other words, the managerial class is too stupid to step out of its own assumptions and understand a value system and perspective different than their own. It is a failure of imagination.

    American produced television, movies, sports, music, and especially internet media and porn. they just get less of it, because, duh, they’re poorer.

    And that they get less of this is a tragedy?

    one of the biggest myths around is that the average european slag is any different than a generic American in their interests and daily routines. the main difference is, euro poors live in smaller houses, drive smaller slower cars or no cars at all, and don’t have AC.

    Yes, and both should have copious amounts of leisure time with which to do as they wish.

    In the recent Covid closures in the US and all the stimulus checks and unemployment benefits people were getting, suddenly freed from work, Americans in droves took to the forests, mountains, and deserts to experience nature and have adventures. It was obvious what they really wanted to do – not sit in an office.

    Many of them had huge RVs with all the amenities and many of them had these dune buggy vehicles in which they roared across the deserts, and others were more quiet and contemplative and spent weeks in the backcountry.

    But everyone was having an absolute blast. The whole country was having a ball. I know – I was there.

    What an oddly tone deaf comment you left, prime noticed. Can people like you really still exist in this day and age, with a simple belief that “stuff” is the point of life? I did not realize people can unironically still think this way.

  126. utu says:
    @Beckow

    The modern right has committed a political suicide once they went fully liberal. Or libertarian, the term they invented to hide who they are.

    As I said many times, libertarians are basically just liberals who are also assholes. People sense that, so it is a political dead-end. All the screaming about wokism, homos and borders won’t change that no matter how right it is.

    Very good points. Though economic liberalism is unavoidable. Business wants freedom to do with money what it wants. Aristocracy was always the greatest advocate of freedom for themselves. Capitalists are always proponents for liberty of open markets, money flows, investments…This is understandable, so the counterweight is needed coming form the lower classes. It was possible in late 19th century Germany and later in many European countries. But once the lower classes imbibe the toxic rhetoric and ideology of libertarianism as it happened in the US first the counterbalance is no longer possible. There will be no pressure from below that motivated German politicians and economist in the 19th century to radically overhaul the system so it would not go the Anglo-American way of ‘liberalism’. To make it sure that the lower classes do not get an idea to ask questions where is the money they get CRT and Gender Studies to swirl in a toxic dance with likes of Ron Unz and his circus. Note the today’s Sailer’s entry on NHS in the UK.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    , @Beckow
  127. Svevlad says:
    @utu

    Then, let them be destroyed by their own idiocy.

  128. Svevlad says:
    @prime noticer

    they don’t live to work

    Thank you for confirming that Angloids are exactly what they jack off to accusing the Chinese of – worker drone bugmen.

  129. @prime noticer

    exactly backwards. they do less work, so they have less stuff. that’s literally what the numbers and statistics measure.

    Yeah, the 50% taxation rate has nothing to do with this. /sarc

  130. Svevlad says:
    @prime noticer

    Ever heard of “efficiency?”

    Why work 45 hours a week when you can do the same amount of work in 35?

    But nope, you as all rightoids see roach countries like Japan and immediately get hard at the “work yourself to death” culture.

    The neo-American way – work 25 hours a day, suck boss dick, send children to school where they will suck black dick. Mandatory critical race brainwashing every day all day. Any failure to comply – 200000000 whiplashes from Jew boss.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  131. china-russia-all-the-way says:

    There are 10 US states with white + Asian populations below 60%. Below are the percentages of whites + Asians along with the GDP per capita rank of the state.

    New Mexico: 37% (35%+2%) | #39
    Texas: 47% (42%+5%) | #13
    California: 51% (37%+14%) | #8
    Florida: 57% (54%+3%) |#40
    Georgia: 57% (53%+4%) | #29
    Nevada: 57% (49%+8%) | #35
    Maryland: 57% (51%+6%) | #11
    Arizona: 58% (55%+3%) | #44
    Mississippi: 58% (57%+1%) |#50
    Hawaii: 59% (22%+37%) | #19

    Collectively, these 10 states represent where America will be in 20 years in racial demographics and tend to be below average. The top 3 states by GDP per capita are California, Maryland, and Texas. Each of the top-performing states has a situation that is hard to replicate. California attracts an abnormal level of talent from around the world. 1/3 of Maryland’s population is in the DC metro area. Texas products almost 2 million barrels of oil a day.

    My guess from viewing these statistics is in 2040 America will no longer be the richest country in the world (excluding countries smaller than 10 million people). Based simply on predicting from racial demographics America in 2040 will probably be middle of the pack among the top 10 countries by GDP per capita (excluding smaller countries).

    I acknowledge my analysis is simplistic in that a list of the top 10 whitest states would show economic underperformance. But I think there’s value in this list for showing what tends to happen when there is too much diversity.

  132. @Xi-jinping

    Innovation is hard, so it will occur wherever the talented people are, with basic security, and a lot of ability to share information; which means having the ability to speak, think, and write freely.

    You might also argue that there needs to be a stressor, or a “need”.

    Start from this point, rather than from where you clearly started, which was your wanted outcome, to which you selectively tried to make the evidence fit.

  133. Beckow says:
    @utu

    I wish I could be more polite to my Anglo-libertarian friends, they are often nice people. But they are retarded when it comes to economics, that allows oligarchs to take advantage of everyone else – see Prime Noticer incoherent sophomoric rambling for an example, he has the mentality of an earnest slave who loves being one. Sailer with his snotty anti-NHS allusion is another one – they will never learn.

    Something happened in the few generations after WWII that removed common sense and self-interest from many common people. It started in US and slowly spread through Europe, Hollywood myths, happy talk, lottery mentality – having lots and lots of food and getting fat. Most of these people are beyond salvation because they are too comfortable to think.

    Though economic liberalism is unavoidable.

    Is it? I am not sure. Economic liberalism has been tried before many times and at the end it has always been found wanting because it eats its way through the society. I am not eve against it as long as it is kept in check. Few basic things we should agree on:
    – without social guarantees there can be no conservative family-oriented society – it simply can’t be done so social liberalism, open borders and eventually wokism is inevitable
    – you cannot earn $1 billion by working – not even close, so describing the current oligarchs and their yes-men as the hardest working people is nonsense on its face.

    I am afraid that conservatism is done for – it has no appeal if it comes with libertarian dog-eat-dog economics. Trump was kind of the latest example, but it has been going on for a while. Who the oligarchs fear most are conservatives with social policies – thus they distract. As we can see, it works on many people.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @silviosilver
  134. songbird says:

    There seems to be a congenital bureaucratic lag or intransigence in many countries when it comes to dealing with the problems created by immigration. No long-term thinking and not much ability to self-correct. Seeking smart, beneficial foreigners seems to inevitably turn into seeking dumb, parasitic ones.

    I suggest the moral solution would be to offshore immigration to city states designed from the ground up to deal with it. For example, in Singapore, they don’t have to put up with a lot of this shit. Now Singapore is a model with a Chinese ethnic core, but presumably, one could create other models.

    Since the economy is globalized, in theory, we would derive benefits from smart people meeting up in such places, that would be too small to become strategic threats. They would blunt the argument that we will fall behind, unless we get more immigrants. And they would be a vent for the people who are radical cosmopolitans and xenophiles.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
  135. @Svevlad

    Strictly speaking, as least in metrics, America has higher productivity than most nations: GDP/hours worked.

  136. Thomm says:
    @Boomthorkell

    I figured you’re not East I*dian because they tend not to speak like you do.

    That is obvious. I also don’t speak about that country or advocate for it. I challenge anyone to find a comment of mine that indicates otherwise, that is under 3 years old. Again, Ron Unz admitted that he started that rumor as an experiment to see if 70-IQ WNs will believe anything that a media Jew like him tells them to (and apparently they do).

    By contrast, I have posted a lot more comments that defend a) Jews, b) Libertarians, and c) Trump-supporting mainstream white people that WN moochers want to extract money from (i.e. my own group).

    Also, labeling every racial nationalist a homosexual seems

    Not all. Only about 40% or so are gay. The other 60% are being pressured to become gay by the 40% that are.

    But if you do your own research here, you will find that many if not most of the WNs here, when asked if they would rather have sex with a white man or a black woman, usually say they prefer the white man. Their rationale is that race loyalty has to trump sexual orientation, and that producing no baby is better than producing a mulatto baby.

    The comment archives of this website have at least 20 instances of a WN being asked this question, and their refusal to say that they would prefer the woman. Even if extreme examples were chosen (such as a choice between Michael Moore and Candace Owens), many have said they prefer the former. I kid you not.

    Female commenters such as Rosie and Alden have also confirmed the very high incidence of homosexuality among WNs.

    The TUR commenters who have openly said that they would rather have sex with a white man over a black woman are :

    JohnnySmoggins
    utu
    RegCaesar
    Svigor
    Mark Tre
    GeneralRimmer
    BenKenobi
    neutral
    iffen
    JMcG
    William Badwhite
    Pericles
    Lurker
    3g4me
    Trinity
    JMcG

  137. @Thomm

    Again, Ron Unz admitted that he started that rumor as an experiment to see if 70-IQ WNs will believe anything that a media Jew like him tells them to (and apparently they do).

    The TUR commenters who have openly said that they would rather have sex with a white man over a black woman are :

    Are there links to confirm any of these claims?

    • Replies: @Thomm
  138. Beckow says:
    @prime noticer

    Dear busybody Noticer: nobody needs to protect us from China or Russia. If anything, the only real danger to Europe is from the masses of migrants that American bombings and interventions unleashed – and in that Washington is squarely on the migrants side.

    Your economic views are simply retarded: you talk like an earnest slave celebrating his masters. Good for you, knock yourself out, but don’t push it on the others.

    On second thought, you could be a conscious parody of the libertarian stupidity. If you are, sorry I didn’t catch it. Or you are what I said: a liberal who is also an asshole – in other words a libertarian.

    Happy bombing. But remember that abyssus abyssum invocat…

  139. @Thomm

    3g4me is a woman, its probably a good thing that she prefers to have sex with a man than a woman.

  140. @prime noticer

    It feels like, following the natural course of your logic, it is better if ditch diggers were given spoons instead of shovels, so that they would have more hours to complete their work.

  141. utu says:
    @Beckow

    ” I am not even against it as long as it is kept in check. “ – How it can be kept in check if you have population indoctrinated in libertarian mode of (un)thinking? And then there is the question at which level it can be kept in check? Victorian England with debtors prisons but w/o death penalty for debtors if you are lucky or at the other extremum of Stalinist/Maoist level of zero private property with exception to personal underwear? This is a very wide range. But more realistically one can look at outcomes like the GINI index: 41 for the US to 24 for Slovenia. Any discussion about how to achieve the desirable outcome and what is the desirable outcome must exclude communists and libertarians with their binary not nuanced realities I do not worry about the former because they no longer exists but the latter are a problem.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  142. @Thomm

    It sounds like a school boy argument where one school boy, making the foolish, but understandable, mistake of actually engaging a childish question on its own terms (when a more mature mind would say “This is a fallacy” or “Eat shit, stop fantasizing about others fucking men when discussing a racial issue”) and responds with an exaggerated extreme, and the other school boy laughs and cries faggot. Both are wrong, but I think less of you for starting it. I figure you wouldn’t care much, being the kind of human to act like that, but it’s there.

    Anyhow, I’m not actually a “white nationalist” in any strict sense. I’m more a Pan National Populist (everyone should be a proud nationalist, etc.), and personally want a politically unified North America. Having said that, I’d rather have people who like their race than people who go about calling their group members faggots because the people in question, like most of humanity, have an existing physical Xenophobia that is exaggerated due to existing circumstances.

    Again, I could impregnate a person of most races I’m attracted to and willing to raise children with. I’m with a Muscovite, but I’ve been attracted to plenty of Mestizas and Asians, and especially Persian types. I’m not gonna label a guy a faggot because he’s not, because that’s a pretty faggot 15-year old thing to do. I’m repeating myself, of course, but that’s it.

    Anyhow, anyone reading this, take a fucking hint and don’t respond to questions like that. It’s stupid. I mean, unless you’re doing it tongue in cheek, then more power to you. Sarcasm is a beautiful thing. So is hyperbole.

  143. @Beckow

    – you cannot earn $1 billion by working – not even close, so describing the current oligarchs and their yes-men as the hardest working people is nonsense on its face.

    Despite your attempts to conceal it, this is fundamentally an argument against private business ownership. While it’s easy to fallaciously depict someone making $1 billion as “doing nothing,” at what point does your logic concede that a business owner earns a “”fair” income, $10 million, $1 million, $100k? Probably none of those would suit you either, and since they’re all substantially greater than the average income, you could claim that those incomes too do not derive from “work” and are thus illegitimate.

    It’s the fact that you assault the beating heart of market economics rather than your qualms about its undesirable social and cultural effects that gives your opinions a fanatical hue and causes me to dismiss you.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  144. @Boomthorkell

    Why even respond to his obvious idiocy? Thomm’s a one-man argument for the establishment of an entire new branch of psychiatry: hindoo racial resentment.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
  145. Beckow says:
    @silviosilver

    Well, we dismiss each other and that is exactly why the current paralysis reigns in the West. It allows the liberal wokist oligarchy to bloom. You clearly don’t consider my actual arguments and instead try some slippery slope tangents or an outright strawman.

    …an argument against private business ownership. While it’s easy to fallaciously depict someone making $1 billion as “doing nothing,”

    It is not, and I never said that they are “doing nothing“. You fight an imagined wind-mill of your fears. Unless you are unaware of math the actual ratios still matter: million to 1 is not the same as 100 to 1. If you think they are the same I can’t help you.

    Market this-or-that is like any other concept: useful when understood in its context. When you start worshipping it you become an ideologue living in a la-la land of lazy, shallow thinking. There is also society (it exists in spite of the libertarian Ayn Rand musings), family, leisure, fun, etc… Markets help with some and hurt with others: we mitigate if we are smart. In a pure market work economy all benefits would sooner or later accrue to the single and childless who network with each other – a pretty good description of the LGBT crowd – as you see it is happening, and then they proceed to take over the family-gender space.

    If you are so bent on markets and productivity, why should my (our) children support the useless lifestyles of the childless old? All activity happens in the present, why should children raised by parents who actually invested in having families pay for the people who didn’t? They never agreed to it. If you an elderly with no own offspring maybe you should be set aside no matter what assets you claim. Wouldn’t that also be a market solution? Or isn’t after all the European way better?

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  146. Beckow says:
    @utu

    …How it can be kept in check if you have population indoctrinated in libertarian mode of (un)thinking?

    It is a dilemma. As we can see even here (a relatively smart forum) the libertarian nonsense is everywhere. Two extremes opposing each other put a check on both: the disappearance of the left (not only the commies) has allowed libertarianism to reign unchallenged. With predictable results, we are heading towards an economic and monetary collapse, or at least a painful reset. The elites in general know this, but don’t really know how to go about it.

    The explosion of the massive anger in the first half of the 20th century created the very liveable societies of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. WWI was a trigger, but it was coming anyway. We owe gratitude to the despised leaders of this anger – they scared the elites into acting better, but that’s gone now. The key question to ask is: how bad had to be the guy who lost the elections to Hitler? This question has been suppressed and now we are living with the results.

  147. @A123

    Emperor Palpatine only wanted to remove the deadwood republic, which debated endlessly while the Trade Federation was ravaging a member planet.

    https://www.eightieskids.com/surprising-reasons-why-the-empire-were-actually-star-wars-good-guys/

    There are other websites that explain how the Jedi were heartless (force a small boy Anakin Skywalker to leave his mother to die in slavery? not warning the foster parents of Luke Skywalker that their foster child may be targeted by the Empire, and they may likely die? Inciting a peaceful Wookie people against their neighbourhood Empire base, which never harmed them, and then leaving those people to the mercy of the base soldiers? One can go on) and careless. Whatever he might be, Palpatine never tried to import aliens to dilute his rebellious population.

  148. RogerL says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    An important question is, why are east Asians good at incremental innovation and improvements to existing systems, and what are the implications of those factors?

    An interesting statistic would be how many years, out of the last 3,000 years, has China had a strong central government. Then compare that to western Europe.

    When I say western Europe, I mean drawing a line down the east side of Sweden, Germany, France, and Italy, and including the land in Europe that is west of that line. Since this area includes many countries, and rarely have they all had a strong central government at the same time, those strong governments would need to be prorated. If 3/10 of western Europe had a strong central government for a year, then this would count as 0.3 year of that kind of government for Europe.

    While the phrase “gaming the system” has a negative connotation, its just a tool and skill that can be used for the good of society, or just for personal advantage.

    In a culture like China’s, with hundreds of generations of strong central government, it seems like it would have selected for people with strong skills in accomplishing incremental improvements, which are done within the existing system, and often in spite of that system.

    ~
    The word “nimble” was a popular corporate buzzword for a while in the US (maybe it still is), and it meant something like “quickly and creatively adaptable to evolving circumstances”. Being nimble involves innovation on a personal scale.

    I wonder if the conditions in western Europe selected for mental nimbleness.

    Both Europe and Africa have had militaristic groups rampaging over them for much of the last 3,000 years. A difference between Africa and Europe is that in much of Europe winter would kill you, if you failed to arrange for weathertight shelter and enough fuel and food to last you thru the winter. It seems like the people with the most mental nimbleness would be most likely to accomplish this, in spite of having had a violently militaristic group recently pass thru the area where they lived.

    After many winters, where the less mentally nimble people died, the average nimbleness of the survivors would have increased.

    It seems like Leonardo da Vinci would be an example of an extraordinarily nimble mind arising from a population that had selected for mental nimbleness for hundreds of generations.

    [MORE]

    ~
    Euroamericans (white people) have had difficultly finding cultural traits to be proud of because so much of euroamerican accomplishments boils down to using empire and exploitation to support material affluence.

    It seems like this mental nimbleness, and its usefulness in problem solving, is particularly strong in the euroamerican culture, and that is something to be proud of and to cultivate and encourage.

    In a world beset by a wide range of severe problems that are steadily becoming worse, leveraging a combination of mental nimbleness and cooperation might be the only way to avoid extreme disaster.

    Another way to describe this mental skill is the ability and willingness to think outside the box. Its seems likely that euroamericans are better at doing this than east Asian people are because most east Asian cultures have strong conditioning to stay within the box.

    Euroamericans should be proud of innovators like Leonardo da Vinci. That he seems to have applied both his left brain and right brain to his projects, and that doing this likely contributed to his productivity, is something to keep in mind.

    Its a false narrative that you can’t apply the right brain to high tech. The right brain is very valuable when working with extremely complex systems, whether digital, social, or environmental.

    ~
    While its true that indiscriminate innovation is often a disaster, Matthew Ehret makes a good case for us to innovate ourselves out the mess of problems we are in. He also makes a good case that to go along with the current narrative of shunning innovation will trap most people as serfs in modern fiefdoms controlled by billionaires who will act with total autocratic impunity.
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/contributors/matthew-ehret/

    The points Ehret makes are a big part of why the billionaires are pressing to shut down the local school programs for the gifted students, who have the potential to be the next generation of innovators, who might be outside of the control of the billionaires.

    The only innovators the billionaires want to see are the ones who grew up and went to school in an elite cultural environment, and are loyal to the elite hierarchy with the billionaires at the top of the hierarchy. The billionaires are really afraid of truly independent innovators, and they should be because those people could easily be the salvation of ordinary people.

    There is a huge difference in perspective here. Billionaires see independent innovators as loose cannon (which need to be pushed overboard as quickly as possible) that are threatening their systems of population control. Ordinary people see independent innovators as heroic people.

    ~
    Dealing with the cancellation of programs for gifted students is something that ordinary people can do with their neighbors – organize with your neighbors and demand that the local schools restore the programs for gifted students.

    I believe that 100% of all gifted students should be taught to think and reason as competently as possible. Regardless of being brought up in some rabid faction of the culture wars, becoming a clear and competent thinker tends to lead people to question the gaps and fallacies in propaganda. So its important to give people, who have an aptitude for thinking, as much training in thinking skills as possible.

    Then starting from this base of clear and competent thinking, these thinkers can innovate in ways that benefit their community.

  149. @Beckow

    Unless you are unaware of math the actual ratios still matter: million to 1 is not the same as 100 to 1. If you think they are the same I can’t help you.

    To be clear, I’m very far from any kind of libertarian. I’m not at all opposed to reining in the megarich. These people often like to claim “it’s not about the money – that’s just a way of keeping score.” I say great, let’s put this theory to the test and ramp up taxes on them. Centralized taxation authorities are one of the marvels of the modern world and it’s here – tax and redistribute -that we find the entry point of economic reform, not in damning the operation of the market mechanism itself.

    Of course, there is such a thing as economic principles which allow us to predict with reasonable certainty the effects of intervention in the market. These principles have nothing to do with whether a given reform is desirable or not, only whether it is realistically attainable. Depending on the severity of the reform, it’s not always clear whether it can be done or not, so sometimes it’s worth trying anyway. Going back to taxes, surely it stands to reason that, as desirable as it might be to tax the crap out of the megarich, at some point such policies may retard growth to an undesirable degree. Reasonable people can discuss such things.

    But when people ask questions like…

    If you are so bent on markets and productivity, why should my (our) children support the useless lifestyles of the childless old? All activity happens in the present, why should children raised by parents who actually invested in having families pay for the people who didn’t?

    …then I don’t believe I am dealing with reasonable people. If for you it’s up for discussion that anyone, regardless wealth, who has worked, saved, and invested and plans to use the proceeds to fund his retirement is fit to be financially dispossessed on the grounds that he is some kind of “parasite,” then you are blind ideologue.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  150. Beckow says:
    @silviosilver

    I am glad we can find some common ground. I would add that it is exactly through taxation that Europe controls oligarchic wealth – not always very well, but there is enough of it to provide universal services to all: medical, education, some housing, etc… That’s worth something, I pointed out that if you subtract the value of these services from taxes in Europe, you get in a better deal than in US. All the chest-beating aside, Americans pay sizeable taxes and get almost nothing in return. Other than bombing the world that you seem to value, but most people don’t, it does nothing for their lives.

    anyone, regardless wealth, who has worked, saved, and invested and plans to use the proceeds to fund his retirement is fit to be financially dispossessed on the grounds that he is some kind of “parasite,”

    I used it as an example of how market principles can be applied in different ways. As I pointed out all activity happens in the present. Your idea that somehow people who had no part in making any contracts with the elderly owe them something goes against pure market principles. But you insist that the contracts have to be honoured and that means assets, debts, transfer payments and medical care for the old. Why shouldn’t younger people simply take care of their own grandparents and parents? If a person accumulated wealth by not spending any resources on children they are owed nothing – that’s the way a pure market would work. Remember, all activity takes place in the present – all else are just promises.

    Many LGBT and similar childless types fit this category. You are offended that market would be used in this case, well, I can be offended that market sets housing, education or the price of jewelry to high. Try to be consistent. As it is you are simply self-serving and that is a fanaticism of its own. It goes well with you desire to bomb the world for what you call “security” – a rather egoistic and stupid thing to do.

  151. Dmitry says:
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Because mathematicians are a very specialized type of labourer, that required significant institutional investment and training by other members of their profession. This is the same with specialist jobs like professional violinists, sushi masters, pianomakers, shoemakers and leading fashion designers.

    Third world countries like China, India, Latin America, etc, are not going to match first world countries in this kind of labourer, without some long term investments in building of academic institutions and specialist training. There might be some unusual specialists like Srinivasa Ramanujan that emerged in regions without institutional development and investment, but these are not a common story.

    And Srinivasa Ramanujan has rapidly emigrated to receive professional development training in the specialist centre of Cambridge University, rather than training in his native India, or contributing to the development of the next generation of local Indian mathematicians.

    Creating world leading specialists, is not as easy for the developing countries, as importing a car factory (which just required giving Tesla or Toyota some tax breaks), or setting up some trainlines. By comparison, third world countries are unlikely to be able to match English shoemaking, or German studio monitor design, or Austrian piano building – without establishing training institutions and longterm investment in those workers.

    The development of world leading specialist workers like mathematicians and pianists, was achieved in the Soviet Union/Russian Empire, with a long term investment in education and rigorous pedagogy (that is now fading in postsoviet times) .

    So it will be certainly possible for other developing countries to achieve this as the Russian Empire/USSR had demonstrated before – whether the developing world will or not focus on such kind of labour, will be a question partly of the competence of the state planning and of the government’s prioritization.

    White/jews are also disproportionately eccentrics and flamboyants,

    It’s determined not by eccentricity, but by the education and training level available in the society.

    Why were the 20th century’s greatest violinists, mostly Jews from Odessa, Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia?

    So that Isaac Stern said about the cultural exchanges between the USA and the USSR, that the classical music events between the two superpowers was simple: “They send us their Jews from Odessa. And we send them our Jews from Odessa.”

    It’s not because of some magical Odessa blood. It’s because in Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia, there had been a society of violin specialists, who were training each other.

    And if you look today at the biography of non-Odessa violinists, they are often reaching their professional level, because they were taught by specialists from the region.

    Therefore, that we read the biography of the (wonderful) Hilary Hahn of Maryland, USA, and her training was a result of multiple Odessa specialists.

    “From 1985 to 1990 she studied in Baltimore under Klara Berkovich”

    “Klara Berkovich was born in Odessa, Ukraine (then part of the Soviet Union), the only child of Yefim Josefovich Gordion, a machinist, and Adele Raphaelovna Tesler,”

    “Hahn was admitted to the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, where she became a student of Jascha Brodsky”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Hahn

    This is not related to blood (Hilary Hahn is from Maryland and could be brought to the leading performance levels), but to a tradition and lineage of violin training that is centred around Odessa.

    Similarly, the world’s greatest shoemakers, are centred around Nottingham of England, and Le Marche region of Eastern Italy. Because this is where the specialist training is available.

    The best pianomakers, will be in Germany, Austria and the Alpine regions, if more recently in Japan. The best actives studio monitors and microphones are designed in Berlin. Great sushi masters are being trained somewhere in Japan, as the best bonsai masters.

    Whether developing countries like China, India, Latin America and Africa, will want to develop the world’s best specialists, will depend above all on the prioritization and resources available to those countries, to invest in developing highly trained specialist workers.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @tamo
    , @utu
  152. Rahan says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    Have you even seen Moscow Doesn’t Believe in Tears? The point is that while a strong woman is certainly better than a weak man who doesn’t fulfil his obligations, what she really needs and wants to do is submit to a real man.

    Everything doesn’t have to be about domination and submission unless one is really, really, f*cked in the head by globohomo brainwashing. There’s no shame in getting tricked by globohomo into getting lost in the maze of their mass-produced thought-pattern loops, but there is a bit of shame in not shrugging it off by July 2021.

    A non-globohomo interpretation of Moscow Doesn’t Believe in Tears is that Katya, after a life of only caring about her career and her kid, after being deeply hurt by her first affair, finally finds someone who wants to care for her, treasure her, and make her happy, and she in turn wants to care for him, treasure him, and make him happy.

    They do so via mechanisms of inherited gender roles and do great until Goga has a nervous breakdown once he is first softened up by her attempting to be bossy, and then hit at once by three realizations: 1) there’s another man orbiting (Alexandra’s biological dad trying to make a belated comeback), 2) his love, Katya, has been misleading him about her social status, 3) her social status is higher than his (which in turn activated old wounds from his previous marriage).

    He goes on a bender, is found by a male friend of the family, and returns to Katya, who has twice in her life screwed up her relationships by lying about herself: once pretending to be higher than she is, to Alexandra’s dad, and once pretending to be lower than she is, in order to not scare off a guy she loves, who she knows is nervous about such things being a self-made blue collar autodictat with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, but nevertheless deeply decent and loving.

    She correctly feels that this is fate giving her another chance at personal happiness.

    Status games–a bit. Caring–yes. Wanting to be loved–yes. The illusory choice of building your happiness on lies–yes. Duty and strength of character–yes. Domination and submission–only through psychotic globohomo goggles, which even the “manosphere”, among other scenes, has only partially slipped off.

    Sooner or later every autonomous individual needs to make the choice to identify the implanted globohomo thought patterns inside himself and shake them off. Better sooner than later. History is accelerating, and the smallest misreading of the situation due to warping of reality by globohomo goggles can lead to (avoidable) disaster.

  153. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    world’s greatest shoemakers, are centred around Nottingham of England

    Oops this should have written as “Northampton of England”, not “Nottingham of England”. In my defense, these cities have confusing names with their “no” and “ham”.

    Northampton is the world’s leader for shoemakers, as Odessa was for violinists, and Cambridge for mathematicians, and Milan for fashion designers, and Southern France for winemakers, etc.

  154. tamo says:
    @Dmitry

    You said “Third world countries like China,” LOL !!! Russia and Ukraine are much more like third world countries than China, my dear boy.

  155. @tamo

    It should be “later industrialized”, which is fair.

    Re Dmitry will have full response shortly

  156. @Daniel Chieh

    I’m pretty sure even if I was a woman I would do Candace Owens over Michael Moore

  157. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s because in Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia, there had been a society of violin specialists, who were training each other.

    Very good point. This was a cottage industry which grew because there was money in it and Jewish parents had great aspirations for their children. They worked very hard for it. There is Isaac Babel’s story about it:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/awakening-short-story-isaac-babel

    All the people in our circle—brokers, shopkeepers, bank clerks, and steamship office workers—taught their children music. Our fathers, seeing no future for themselves, came up with a lottery. They played it out on the bones of little people. More than any other city, Odessa was possessed with this madness. And it’s true—for decades our city supplied the concert halls of the entire world with wunderkinds. Mischa Elman, Zimbalist, Gabrilowitsch came from Odessa, and Jascha Heifetz started out in our city.

    When a boy turned 4 or 5 years old, his mother took this puny, feeble creature to see Mr. Zagursky. Zagursky ran a factory of wunderkinds, a factory of Jewish dwarfs in lacy collars and little patent leather shoes. He sought them out in the slums of Moldavanka, in the stinky courtyards of the Old Bazaar. Zagursky offered the initial direction, and then the children were sent to Professor Auer in St. Petersburg. A powerful harmony lived in the souls of these starvelings with blue, bloated heads. They became renowned virtuosi. And so my father decided to follow in their stead. Even though I had long since exceeded the age of wunderkinds—I was over 13—my height and puny physique made it possible for me to pass for an 8-year-old. That was the hope.

    I have used his story to illustrate my argument about IQism and Jewish IQ few year ago:

    https://www.unz.com/article/a-reply-to-jordan-peterson/?showcomments#comment-2331339

  158. Thomm says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Why yes. Yes there are. You will have to allow a comment with multiple links pass the moderation filter.

    Exhibit 1 :

    I won’t go through the trouble of mining all the links at once, so I will put forth a few. If you are interested and seem to be assessing the evidence fairly, I will put in the effort to present more.

    For starters, see this thread. It is not me, but commenter Truth, who has been in good standing for 10 years and to the tune of nearly a million words, who poses this question to the notorious WN, GeneralRipper. GeneralRipper, even after three or four requests, refuses to say that he would prefer a black woman over a white man, if those were the only two choices as a sexual partner. In the same thread, you can see that when speaking about how attractive a certain ethnicity is (Irish people, in this case), he presents pictures of four men, and zero women.

    https://www.unz.com/freed/race-a-very-very-dismal-reality/?showcomments#comment-4177939

    Dude, you STILL can’t just come straight out and say “I like pussy, not cocks.” What is so hard about that?
    I didn’t believe Thommy at first when he said you guys were a bunch of butt-blowers, but the longer it goes, the more obvious it becomes…

    That is sufficient evidence from which to surmise that he is a homosexual.

    Exhibit 2 :

    Now, see this thread :

    https://www.unz.com/article/24-black-on-white-homicides-may-2021-another-month-in-the-death-of-white-america-and-whites-arent-fighting-back-unlike-tulsa-1921/#comment-4730751

    Over here, Truth again poses this question to another WN, Cowtown Rebel (as well as to GeneralRipper again). They obfuscate at length, but just cannot bring themselves to say that they would prefer Candace Owens over Michael Moore as a sexual partner. They argue that race loyalty has to trump sexual orientation.

    Commenter Truth was the asker in both of the above exhibits, so you can see how more people are discovering this truth about WNs.

    He also points out that this question has been posed over a dozen times, and none of the WNs in question can give the standard, heterosexual answer :

    Dude, why is this so hard for you guys? Thomm has asked this question multiple times, and EVERY TIME the guy hems and haws through 7 responses, and STILL can’t come out and say he’d rather have sex with a woman then a man. Then you went into all this homo/electra complex/ beastiality weirdness. And guess what, you STILL only kinda/sorta answered the question
    It’s very strange, and a little suspect.
    For instance, If I am offered the choice between sleeping with say Rosanne Barr, a white woman with NO sexual appeal, or say Denzel Washington, it takes me ONE MILLISECOND to answer that question; one is a man, one is a woman, so bring Rosie on and send her with a plate of oysters and some porn because otherwise it ain’t gonna work!

    Exhibit 3 :

    This is a different type of evidence, but below are two articles (one by Greg Johnson, a prominent WN) and one comment thread (from a WN site), that go to great lengths to argue that WNs should not assume that heterosexuality is normal, and that homosexuality should carry equal status in the WN community since so many WNs are gay. Read the links for yourself.

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2010/10/homosexuality-and-white-nationalism/

    https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t983969/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=b5526a024ee75a3a2d5a6cd5c4dfbad616a8bbed-1592848278-0-AQPBYxmw0UNQpBDktqr-4htykId5yZfWryDGlj_tMb9nW6Sr_xz3a0iFBagx5IJGZjEKA3GzrGGcHC7-eli_f8HH-jJue9WRbNpHeXGsdDJPmaychWUGmLLB6zP-JUR425q5NA8PAbWczepJ1LEBfB-udags-gnLEcd-ul435Mv32XMP3jNOF-SBHV4Mu3szkLNhs8W7DDpaqcAV6YBJfeCRCIrJlHax_hd8AmWbC3VXLf3R7MEmbFsKzCcBdYdiCYHB4hjmj38TlChoPHHdlfdZleNCcfRitmMeSdu67eQO

    https://truthout.org/articles/white-nationalist-groups-are-splitting-over-gay-inclusion/

    Let’s start with those three. Overall, all the people I have listed in my earlier comment, have either said that they would prefer a white man over a black woman as a sexual partner, or at least went to extraordinary lengths to not say that even Candace Owens is preferable to Michael Moore.

    Remember, one does not need to like black woman much to still prefer them over a man, since a black woman is still a woman.

    As an example, in Boomthorkell’s long-winded avoidance above, he is trying to obfuscate rather than say that even an attractive black woman (with Republican views, if that helps) is preferable to an obese white man. A heterosexual would have no such problem answering this question with a preference for Candace Owens or Kim Klacik over any man, let alone Michael Moore.

    A normal, heterosexual man would simply say “Maybe black women are not my favorite race of women, but I still sure as hell prefer one, especially a pretty one like Candace Owens/Kim Klacik over ANY man, white or otherwise, as a sexual partner.”

    No heterosexual wants to blur the lines or even experiment with homosexuality. The average heterosexual man would not have sex with another man, ahead of an attractive woman (even if black), even for $2 million.

    The thing is, these WNs don’t even know how to pretend to be heterosexuals. That much is certain given the pattern of their answers.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  159. @Thomm

    Well I haven’t all of the comments in those discussions, nor am I going to ofc, but Cowtown Rebel’s reply in #2 seems pretty unambiguous:

    Simply said: I don’t have any desire to have sex with a Man. I have never had sex with a Man. I’ve had sex with Women, but I do not go around jumping into bed with just any Woman who comes along. Is that clear enough for you?

    Grindr Greg’s proclivities aren’t exactly a secret. And in the case of Jack Donovan it’s openly admitted. I don’t know of any other homosexuals amongst mainstream WN figures (not that I spent much, or any, time researching the issue).

    • Replies: @Thomm
  160. @Dmitry

    Because mathematicians are a very specialized type of labourer, that required significant institutional investment and training by other members of their profession.

    Completely agree. Institutional investment to train and incubate human capital. The best ping-pong/soccer players get there by playing the other bests.

    Geopolitics is I’d say also a key determiner. In a few ways—

    – Nobel prizes by country is a story of both white-dominance, and Anglo-dominance. Not only due to emigration to US post WW2. But also that you can expect everyone on the Swedish Nobel Committee to speak fluent English, but probably not German/French.

    – The Swiss win on a per capita basis, 3x more science Nobels than Germans. The top Swiss Uni (ETH Zurich) is ranked 8th, but the top German (TUM) is 50th. Obviously there’s no HBD reason for this (yeah I get there’s higher percentage of vibrance in Germany), but probably related to — why no Tiger or T-34 has ever encroached Swiss soil* Its much harder for foreign armies to ravage the Alps than North German Plains, so historically they have the luxury to attract and incubate elites and build specialized high-end niche institutions, pianomakers, banks

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Nobel_laureates_per_capita
    https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/choosing-university/worlds-top-100-universities

    *I’ve remarked here on the precariousness of Swiss neutrality in WW2.
    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/where-did-the-covid-come-from-inquiring-minds-want-to-know/?showcomments#comment-4665941

    – At the same time I’m dubious that Swiss case is scalable, since in a way they are on the top of the pyramid in Europe, and at extreme high cost of living prices out the less ambitious emigrants

    Thus far all top Chinese/Korean mathematicians/physicists have been trained in West. The Japanese have proven capable of building their own institutions, as evident by their recent Nobels and Shinichi Mochizuki’s (trained at Harvard and Kyoto) breakthrough. PRC will certainly get there, in terms of Nature index per capita counts is about the same as Russia.
    https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2020/country/all

    This is said to be the first potential Nobel for a natively-trained PRC physicist
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_anomalous_Hall_effect

    The question is what is the ceiling for innovation at a per capita level for PRC? Is it Italy-level, France?

    The idea has been bounced about in Sinosphere of a more Federalized political system, so that Yangtze Delta or Shenzhen can build its own separate brand and have near Swiss-level innovation where all the physicists have as hobbies skiing and skuba-diving. Won’t happen anytime soon so we’ll see

    It’s determined not by eccentricity

    This I quibble with. Pure math and theor. physics is much more abstract than other crafts…so more like a composer than violinist. Requiring monastic devotion.

    In Grothendieck’s case, typically instead of solving a problem head on, he reframed it as a special case of a more general problem.

    And to come up with fundamental breakthroughs such as:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift#Natural_sciences
    requires beyond IQ and traditional training, but also imagination:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%27s_thought_experiments

    This mode of epiphany generating dynamicism is exceeding rare for Chinese STEM types vs. whites (Japanese are somewhat in between). Part of the problem is they tend to be narrower and less well read in humanities. Einstein was inspired by Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason. Wittgenstein (we know how eccentric he was) invented the truth table which led to modern computer science. Mochizuki was inspired by the anime Nigeru wa Haji da ga Yaku ni Tatsu.

    Traditionally, these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead.

    Stephen Hawking, and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design

    This may or may not be true with regards to Western philosophy, but then 3000 years Chinese philosophy has not made any connection to science, and unless Mohism or something is revived, is sitting dormant. In order to make Kuhnian-level paradigm changes, I see this as a limiting factor for East Asians.

  161. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Tangentially related. It was reported recently that China has exceeded Germany as the top exporter of machine tools, although mostly low/medium end.

    So there was this piece in Handelsblatt:

    The German economy has to adjust to decoupling from China

    The feared “decoupling” is becoming a reality, at least in strategically important areas. Not because the US is asking for it, but because China is working towards it.

    Again it comes to human rights violations and high-tech surveillance in the Uyghur province of Xinjiang: The US has imposed new sanctions against China. 14 companies and organizations are affected; the Americans had already listed five Chinese companies in June.

    https://www.handelsblatt.com/meinung/kommentare/kommentar-die-deutsche-wirtschaft-muss-sich-auf-eine-entkopplung-von-china-einstellen/27409456.html

    The popular take on Sinosphere, is that China should not seek to take on the West in all high-end areas, and to seek “decouple” 脱钩 from the West. Lest we will be hearing about sixty million Uighurs in camps from DW.

    So that’s definitely a school of thought..whether China should seek to lead innovation in too many areas.

  162. Thomm says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Well, Greg Johnson insists most WNs are at least bisexual, and others don’t seem to deny it. His personal proclivities are less important than how his proclivities are the WN mainstream at this point.

    but Cowtown Rebel’s reply in #2 seems pretty unambiguous:

    You cherrypicked one paragraph out of one comment, and that too from before he was cornered into not having ‘none of the above’ available to him. The only choices were an attractive black woman (e.g. Owens, Klacik) vs. an ugly white man (e.g. Michael Moore). When cornered, he still could not say that he prefers the woman over the man.

    I notice you didn’t defend GeneralRipper. He was the most overtly homosexual of the group, so I don’t blame you.

    Ultimately :

    No heterosexual man would have ANY hesitation is saying they, sexually, prefer Candace Owens or Kim Klacik over Michael Moore. This is not controversial. I realize this site is a bubble, but in the outside world, see what commenter Truth said about how many WNs could not answer the way a heterosexual would. I named them in the list in Comment #139.

    If the outside world saw the responses from all the WN homos that I listed above who have all either outright said that white solidarity means staying with white even if it means waiving the heterosexuality condition, or otherwise gone to great lengths to avoid answering the question (which is effectively a vote for the white man over the black woman).

    I think you are insufficiently unaware of how Greg Johnson-like Western WN has become. You are also ignoring the fact that Rosie and Alden (both women) have said that a large fraction of WNs are gay.

    I also remind you that 55% of white women voted for Trump, but almost none are found in WN circles. Even the manosphere has a fair number of women in it, but WN does not. How much proof does one need?

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  163. @Thomm

    Michael Moore looks like he is getting to the Bruce Jenner circa 2010 stage. Will he be winning “Woman of the Year” by 2025?

    https://images.app.goo.gl/YC1iP8R7sf4eukiv7

    Candace Owens is pretty, though she is helped by artful make up.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/oBnEfmdwYpvHnbCi6

    Not that either of these points are important. I just felt I had to write them to lead up to this:

    I read about these guys. They seem what they are, but, if any of them ever read this, please dress better e.g just because you don’t go to the gym, it doesn’t mean your suits can’t fit.

    1. Far left with the crossed arms. Uncross them. You look nervous. You’re also only a touch overweight, so don’t pose in a way which gives you a double chin. You’re not actually fat.

    2. Guy on the right of him. Lose the stupid sunglasses. They’re awful.

    3. Far back left with the rock star pose: your facial and head hair are terrible, your shirt is grey, you’re wearing a crucifix as a tie, your sunglasses are blue-tinted, your pose is kind of annoying, but it works somehow. You’re ok. Probably because you seem relaxed and to actually like the people you’re with.

    4. Guy who his arm is around. Put your torso straight onto the camera. You look like his shorter, shy girlfriend.

    5. The next 3, except the guy at the far right, you’re all fine. Sunglasses indoors, as a group, in suits, is always going to make you look nerdy. When I was 12 I too liked to “hide” behind sunglasses, so I get it. The problem is that everyone gets it, and everyone remembers what was going through their head when they hid in that way. Or perhaps I am wrong and you’re all hiding your pupils because you’re on drugs? That would explain the name “Apu”, like from Quickie Mart?

    6. Guy at the bottom right. I’m sorry your mum took away your video games. I assume that’s why you’re standing like a little grump. Please also don’t wear trainers with a suit, unless you’re walking to work from the tube and don’t want to ruin your beautiful leather shoes. *I like your tie.

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