The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersRussian Reaction Blog
India vs. China
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

According to my CMP index, China should currently outclass India by a factor of more than three (figures for after 2015 are based on projections but this index don’t change cardinally over the course of a few years). That’s almost comparable to the fivefold differential between Pakistan and India.

Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas, it will come down to a question of troop quality and airlift capacity. China should have the edge in the former – even back in 1962, it won its engagement in Ladakh against India, while incurring twice fewer casualties. Its superiority in airlift capacity might be undercut by India’s easier logistics.

I am not sure of the logic behind the Chinese belligerence.

I suppose performing some calibrated tests on the PLA’s combat effectiveness on a weaker military might be a good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair. This is an increasingly pressing issue, given the accelerating Great Bifurcation and the louder and louder voices clamoring for independence in Taiwan.

Obviously, it will sour India’s relations with China and move it even closer to the Americans. On the other hand, the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.

It does put Russia into an uncomfortable position, which has excellent relations with both China and India (in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan – and, indirectly, ensured Bangladeshi independence). I suppose China wagers that Russia doesn’t view India as the more indispensable partner, and they are surely correct to do so. Certainly Russia is not going to embargo/sanction China on account of India.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: China, India, Military 
Hide 467 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. What is the Great Bifurcation?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  3. Max Payne says:

    I have a 2-to-1 on a decisive Chinese victory on the next skirmish. Any takers?

  4. @Abelard Lindsey

    The end of Chimerica/one world globalization, I have been speculating about it since late 2018.

  5. songbird says:

    in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan

    I don’t think America really cared about the sub-continent back then. Certainly not enough to get militarily involved in a Hindu-Muslim ethno-religious war, while simultaneously fighting a war in Vietnam. A little saber-rattling with the fleet is a different matter.

    Nuclear weapons make a lot of discussion of future conflict mute. Any future conflict between China and India is likely to be fought on K Street, as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
  6. Not Raul says:
    @Max Payne

    I agree with those odds.

    India’s performance against Pakistan last year was embarrassing.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47397418

  7. All Indians seem to do is cold call British people all day long trying to scam them out of money, especially out of elderly and vulnerable people. Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can’t be the only one.

    I hope China smashes India for that reason alone, they are absolute scum.

    • Agree: Owen C., Dreadilk
    • LOL: silviosilver, Charon
  8. Kim Yo Jong, the cutest Stalinist dictator, is getting ready to kick ass in the DMZ:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/north-korea-threatens-invade-border-area-after-blowing-de-facto-embassy

    Looks like Corona-chan has competition for the most dangerous female of 2020.

    More seriously, this is push is motivated by China to see how the US responds and to assess the gayed up state of the US Army.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Exile
  9. Mr. XYZ says:

    Anatoly, just how far deep into (as in, inside of) India do you think that China can realistically expand in a conventional war between these two countries? I am aware that the Himalayas are in the way but even if China could seize, say, Tawang, then this in itself could be a huge propaganda coup for China.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Daniel Chieh
  10. Ian Smith says:
    @songbird

    Yahya Khan, the leader of Pakistan at the time, was helping the Nixon administration with its rapprochement with China, so between that and Nixon’s deep loathing of India Gandhi, we weren’t too interested in helping Bangladesh.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/12/17/the-blood-telegram/

    • Thanks: songbird
  11. DB Cooper says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

  12. The real winner of a China-India conflict will be Uralvagonzavod and Sukhoi

    • Agree: mal
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  13. @AltSerrice

    Isn’t Sukhoi called OAK these days?

  14. A123 says:

    good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair.

    Red China’s inability to assimilate Hong Kong is an obvious, dismal failure.

    While the PRC military could overwhelm Taiwan… What is the end game? A painful Loss of Face from failed assimilation? It seems highly unlikely that Xi will volunteer for an inevitable PR disaster. The HK mess can be accurately and effectively blamed on his predecessors, outsiders, others, etc.

    Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas …

    Very true. The smart move for India would be avoiding a head-to-head conflict. I am sure they can find some miserable piece of frozen road and accidentally create an mirror image by placing their troops on an equivalent piece of unprotected Chinese property.

    Both Xi and Modi can then receive their shared Nobel Peace Prize by giving back the accidentally taken land in the Spirit of Friendship.

    the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.

    And, a military without reliable sources energy cannot bear a long war that would exhaust its resources. Losing access to Persian Gulf oil transiting The Strait of Malacca is a known issue for Chinese military planners. Strategic reserves only go so far.
    _____

    Objectively, the most likely outcome to a conventional arms India-China conflict is a grinding lose-lose stalemate between:

    — Better equipped Chinese forces hampered by fuel & supply shortages.
    — Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.

    Both sides have nuclear weapons, which could lead to outcomes worse than stalemate.
    _____

    One has to believe that both India and China are taking actions primarily for domestic media consumption. Neither side has any motivation to escalate. As long as the PR encounters are between limited numbers of infantry, there is little potential for an irretrievable accident/mistake.

    PEACE 😇

  15. theMann says:

    Courtesy of sex-selective abortion, China and India both have a huge surplus of marriage age males vs. females, something like 10% more. It is inherently destabilizing. Right now Chinese buy foreign brides, Indians and Chinese emigrate, but it isn’t enough.

    A really protracted WWI style border war could grind up millions of excess males. Both countries are in deep demographic trouble, powder kegs waiting to happen. Both countries will continue shifting to ever more violent totalitarian measures to corral their male populations, but this will eventually fail.

    Maybe they can find a new and improved Corona virus – one that is actually lethal but only kills males………

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  16. Jatt Arya says:
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don’t do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

  17. Jatt Arya says:
    @theMann

    Whites have left christianity (mostly) but are genetically prone to apocalyptic doomsday thinking||

    Males marry later than females so this isn’t really an issue, especially when the underclass can be safely ignored. :shrug:

    What was the Euro gender balance when they were emigrating or slaughtering each other in WWs?

    • Replies: @theMann
  18. soyuz says:

    China’s water supply depends on the Himalayas and the glaciers there, and on the adjacent mountains in Qinghai.

    US strategy is to try to be able to blockade energy and food imports into China by sea from the Mideast/Persian Gulf. China’s military and naval buildup in the South China Sea and Indian Ocean is to try to prevent this.

    Russia is another energy and food source for China, so regime change in Russia towards a pro-US and pro-NATO regime enables an energy/food blockade of China from Russia.

    US support for Tibetan independence going back to the 50s was due in large part of Tibet’s strategic location for China’s water supply. India’s role in a pro-US coalition against China would be to block China’s water supply in the Himalayas and Tibetan/Qinghai plateau.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  19. DB Cooper says:
    @A123

    “Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.”

    There was a time as far as South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) goes this is true. But it is no longer true because Tibet today is not as remote to coastal China as before due to the network of roads and railways and airports built in the past couple of decades. On the other hand India never enjoy logistic advantage in the Aksai Chin area because this area is high up in the Tibetan plateau with easy assess from the Chinese side and extremely hard to get at from the lowland India side. In fact because of the difficult terrain China was able to build a highway on Aksai Chin area and for years without India even knowing it. India only knows about it when it read it mentioned in a Chinese article and starting claiming the highway built on Indian territory.

    • Replies: @A123
  20. DB Cooper says:
    @Jatt Arya

    “A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars’”

    This coming from the land of the rapes.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  21. Jatt Arya says:
    @Jatt Arya

    Diplomatically India only has to show a willingness to fight while China has to win|

    China seems to have taken more casualties from the landslide||

    Endia allowed China to build reserves for months||
    Monsoon will arrive in NW in 7-10 days||
    China had to do something now or wait till next year||

    @DB Cooper

    You’ll hate Hindu pagans till the last white man is extinguished by a horde of africans & muslims||

    We get it,

    https://www.academia.edu/2259770/The_Blood_of_Martyrs_The_British_Concept_of_Horror_in_India_and_Imperial_Ideology

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
  22. I am not sure of the logic behind the Chinese belligerence.

    China isn’t belligerent. Neither side can be considered belligerent but India has badly misread China. Key points to remember when considering belligerence.

    1) India has launched a massive military buildup in the boundary area since 2009; China hasn’t and doesn’t have many men stationed at the border.
    2) At several spots along the border there are areas of differing perceptions. Each side routinely patrols within their claim line and at the same time transgresses into the other side’s claimed territory.
    3) India has surged construction of 30+ border road projects since admonishment by parliament in late 2018 over weak construction progress. Construction is changing the environment and could have led to misunderstanding.
    4) The physical fight (no shots fired) was during disengagement following procedure agreed on earlier in the month. I don’t know how the fight broke out but when it happened it looked at the time like the situation was easing.
    5) There is no logic to belligerence. China doesn’t want military conflict with India. The grand strategy of China is focused on the US. While India feels victimized and provoked by China for reasons related to the border dispute and support for Pakistan, the tensions are in the realm of diplomacy. But Indians don’t make the distinction seeing political provocations as evidence of Chinese intent to launch a war. (I believe there are psychological reasons for Indians to stick to their belief in a malevolent China. I discuss in previous comments linked below.)

    *speculation* Lastly, the incident occurred on a ridge with a freezing river below. That may be why the number of deaths is so high. The fight lasted hours and was splish splash. The Global Times editor claims India didn’t have capacity to evacuate injured soldiers. He doesn’t back up the claim but notably the Indo-Tibetan Border Police, a nearly 100,000 strong paramilitary force that jointly guards the Himalayan border with the Indian Army doesn’t have a single helicopter to its name. ITBP has begged the Home Affairs bureaucracy for its own choppers but the process is delayed. Instead ITBP relies on overtaxed military helicopters.

    My previous comments on China-India tensions and Chinese strategy

    1. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3903959
    2. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3906816
    3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3911350

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  23. Visualization of incident area

  24. nebulafox says:
    @songbird

    It was more ethno than religious. The essential issue was that the two Pakistans had Islam in common, and nothing else: not even a common alphabet.

    As was often the case in the Cold War, local regional powers often acted independently of their superpower patrons for their own interests. This isn’t to say that superpower behavior was irrelevant, but tangential compared to the interests of the directly involved parties. In the specific case of the 1971 war, the US tilt toward Pakistan was largely about tilting toward China, one of the few reliable go-betweens that could serve Beijing and Washington simultaneously at the time. To this day, China and Pakistan enjoy a very tight relationship, but back then, it was one of the few outside connections that China had to the world that the US also had a friendly relationship with.

    If you’d like to know a little more about the American role specifically, here’s an interesting link.

    http://nixontapes.org/india-pakistan.html

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
  25. A123 says:
    @DB Cooper

    The scenario posed was for a Chinese incursion into India. Cross border roads are primitive bordering on non-existent. India can easily cut off tanker traffic through the Straits of Malacca. China would have massive logistics disadvantages everywhere trying to get resupply into Indian territory.

    Your point becomes more interesting if one considers a different scenario, India incursion into China. That would be closer to a logistical tie. China would still be hampered by lack of oil. However, India would have the hard ground transport logistics case of no rail and miserable road connectivity. This would lead to a different grinding stalemate, but the outcome would likely be fairly similar.
    ____

    Another downside to China’s strategic position is any war over the Himalayas is one of “fighting seasons”. There will be months each year when everything becomes almost impassable to organized military forces. At the same time India can block oil traffic through the Straits of Malacca for 12 months every year.

    Without multiple Supercarrier Task Forces, China cannot project sufficient force to prevent the Indian Navy from sinking or seizing China bound tankers as they try to pass from the Persian Gulf to the Westernmost portion of the Indian Ocean.

    Objectively looking at the balance of forces:
    — The chances of India beating China are virtually nil.
    — The odds of a China military victory over India are the same or slightly worse.

    Can anyone envision a “clean” win by China or India?
    ______

    If the geography was slightly different, China could offer to buy India’s useless Dalit population in Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. Alas, that would cut off some more useful parts of India.

    There may be a finesse play there for China… If they can find something that India views as an impediment instead of valuable.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @ivan
  26. Jatt Arya says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    Mudi has to react since casualties are from Bihar regiment||

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election

    [MORE]

    China doesn’t need to station many men when it has an infrastructural advantage.
    Recent re-organisations and additions of airfields, artillery bases etc in Tibet also threaten the Indian side.

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/06/03/a-military-appraisal-of-the-india-china-standoffs-in-eastern-ladakh/

    Stop cow slaughter & we can be friends|| :shrug:

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/07/26/duel-in-the-himalayas-how-india-and-china-square-off/

    For years, India had deliberately kept its frontier with China devoid of much access infrastructure due to a premise that the absence of such connectivity would lead to attacking forces getting bogged down, thereby giving time to the Indian military to regroup and respond to an invasion. Even now, the Indian strategy in a few sectors seeks to let Chinese forces concentrate within the narrow confines of a valley before focusing an assault from the flanks. However, this outlook of basically conceding some territory up-front during an enemy advance began changing by the early 1990s, when Beijing started building a massive rail and road network of its own in the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) that created a situation whereby the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF) and the People’s Armed Police (PAP) can attempt both creeping encroachment as well as salami-slice tactics along the LAC between India and China.

    Typically, the Chinese ‘road head’ is either right up to the LAC or is just a few hundred metres short of it while the Indian ‘road head’ could be anywhere between a several hundred metres to several kms short of the LAC, although this is changing now.

    With India now pushing back against Chinese encroachment both at the LAC as well as what it considers to be its sphere of influence in South Asia, tensions are on the rise. Three years ago, what was supposed to be a new beginning for India-China relations, with President Xi Jinping becoming the first major head of State to visit India after Modi assumed office, turned sour as Chinese troops intruded into Indian territory in Eastern Ladakh, even as the visit was underway.

    With CPEC, China has essentially inserted itself into the Kashmir dispute in a major way.

    Chinese Capability in Tibet
    could concentrate the equivalent of up to 7 division sized formations in TAR within a week’s time with one RR division being inducted into Lhasa in as little 24-36 hours. Nevertheless, most of the deployed forces from lower altitudes will take at least two weeks to get acclimatized and this must be added to the time taken for simply mobilizing a certain quantum of forces from outside TAR.

    For sustaining whatever forces it inducts into Tibet, the PLAGF, apart from the specialized storage facilities it has built there, can also leverage various ‘civilian’ logistic nodes that have ‘dual-use’ billeting and warehousing complexes complete with loading ramps and traffic loops as well as hard standings. (some are 30km from border)

    Since 2012, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has been conducting live fire exercises in Tibet that have included providing support to ground forces training for the ‘capture of passes in high-altitude regions’. Winter operations have also become routine after being carried out for the first time in 2012. Night flying drills out of Lhasa Gonggar have also been reported in the Chinese media. In addition to the airfields in TAR, the Western TC has over a dozen other airfields within 1200 km of the LAC from which PLAAF aircraft could be based during a conflict with India. Incidentally, two very large helicopter bases are located in Aksai Chin,

    The Indian Build-up
    Probably the target of greatest value for the Chinese is Tawang,
    an entire IA mountain (Mt) division, the 5th under IV Corps has its headquarters in neighbouring West Kameng district with the defence of Tawang as its focus.
    Indian forces deployed in Tawang have the best firepower the IA has at its disposal
    there is still essentially a single axis road that connects Tawang to the plains below but that road after years of neglect is now being re-carpeted with long lasting concrete by India’s Border Roads Organization, which also intends to construct a tunnel

    In addition to 5 Division, India has eight more Mt divisions in India’s North-East (with two added just this decade) under the III, IV and XXXIII Corps of its Eastern Command, which are all defensively oriented against the Chinese. An additional infantry division, the 23rd, based in Ranchi, Jharkhand is under III corps but is a ‘dual-tasked formation’ (DTF) since it is also attached to a ‘Strike Corps’ meant for the Pakistan border.

    Another flashpoint is of course the Depsang plains that abuts the Siachen Glacier and the all- important Karakoram Pass. In 2013, the area witnessed a major incursion by the PLAGF that led to a standoff which was defused only after the IA managed to deploy sizeable forces there with the support of IAF Mi-17 helicopters since road connectivity was non-existent at the time. Indeed, a few months later the IAF demonstrated a C-130J landing at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) advanced landing ground (ALG) in Depsang, which is at an elevation of 5065 metres, making it the highest airstrip in the world.

    Nevertheless, the area continued to be perceived by the PLAGF as vulnerable given that it had a road that led right up to the Chip Chap river and had also deployed armoured columns in the vicinity using the Western Highway. Moreover, PLA’s Western TC also has three airfields in the vicinity at Kashgar, Shiquan and Hotan, wherefrom PLAAF fighters can take-off with sizeable payloads. However, India has reinforced this area with a brigade in addition to deploying T-72 tanks in the area. Importantly, India is in the process of deploying an entire armoured brigade in Eastern ladakh, with two T-72 regiments already operational.

    Turning to a possible contest in the skies, it is clear that IAF aircraft will have an endurance advantage in any air war over Tibet. Moreover, the adverse meteorological conditions over Tibet are difficult to negotiate at the best of times and it remains to be seen how well the PLAAF would cope with that during a major air campaign, especially given the limited infrastructure at most TAR airfields. In sharp contrast to this, all major IAF airbases with relevance to the LAC have been upgraded as part of the modernization of airfield infrastructure (MAFI) project which has seen the installation of air traffic control and landing aids that makes them capable of hosting aircraft for day/night all-weather operations.

  27. Jatt Arya says:
    @DB Cooper

    See other comment.

    Muh troop quality, bro!

    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-classic-in-praise-of-sikhs-the-coolest-warrior-tribe-around/

  28. theMann says:
    @Jatt Arya

    WWI, with massive casualties for soldiers and far fewer for civilians, led to a huge imbalance of females over males in most European Countries, and this was directly responsible for those countries embracing Socialism wholeheartedly in the 20’s and 30’s. It was the Rule of the Ugly Chicks, millions of women with zero chance of getting married, or even laid, turned to the State to replace the Husband in their lives. The literature is rather extensive on this, I believe. Russia fared even worse, and much longer, as WW II gave them the same result, only more so. Indeed, Bolshevism wasn’t Ideology so much as sheer female driven hatred turned to the Political.

    The total Economic and Military costs of the two world wars were recuperable, half a century of wild Gender Imbalance wasn’t. One small example of this is that even now, European, and especially, Russian, men tend to treat women like crap, since they always expect other women available to take their place.

    The exact opposite mechanism takes place in India\China. Any remotely good looking woman in those two countries is so super saturated with a sense of “I am just SO precious” entitlement that they could almost be honorary American Feminists – yech!

  29. @A123

    You have no idea what you’re rambling about, though that is par for the course from you.

    To both her credit and penatly, China neither participates nor particularly cares about “soft power” failures; it is enormously focused on internal considerations and despite beliefs to the otherwise, has to consider the opinions of its population – including a large percentage of ultranationalists. Given such, reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    Any actual outright conflict between Chinese and Indian forces alone without outside intervention would be a direct wipe of Indian forces, perhaps as easily visible as India’s agonizing efforts to setup a ballistic missile defense, choosing instead to try to develop one which after around 15 years, still can’t even protect one city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defence_Programme

    Per reports emerged in January 2020, the first phase of BMD program is now complete Indian Air Force (IAF) and the DRDO are waiting for government’s approval to install the missile shield for the national capital and will take three to four years to install shield after approval.

    Given the absurd mess that is the Indian military, any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare; most likely followed by destruction of any number of high material targets as the overwhelming missile strike is Chinese doctrine and leverages the strength of Chinese industry.

    China could probably airlift troops into India as needed, but its not particularly meaningful and its unlikely that China will do so, and even more unlikely that any serious occupation would be attempted(as that would likely prove costly and difficult).

    China will just settle for its strong advantage in inflicting material destruction from a distance or from the air, which is almost certainly going to be one-sided. Strategic reserves would more than last long enough for such an effort.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  30. @Mr. XYZ

    China doesn’t really have use for more inaccessible land; it has plenty of that already.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Mr. XYZ
  31. @DB Cooper

    yeah but since india is a “democracy” it gets a pass. plus they were willful foot soldiers for the British when they wanted to invade other Asian countries (including China) – so that has rubbed off on them.

  32. DB Cooper says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    China should absolutely take back South Tibet including Tawang, may be not today or tomorrow but eventually. India has no business there. The locals hate the Indians, and for good reasons and India knows it and this is the reason AFSPA is imposed there. Tawang is very accessible, it is the birthplace of the Sixth Dalai Lama and home to a four hundred years old Tibetan monastery. Historically it is the last major frontier town of historic Tibet before transitioning into the tribal area south side of the Himalayans and onto the Indian plains.

  33. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    Here is a map showing the location of Tawang. The map is zoomable and you can see in great detail its location (close to the eastern border of Bhutan).

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

  34. sous-vide says:
    @A123

    Neither countries have the capabilites to pose an existential threat through conventional warfare. China can’t send tank column towards Dehli, nor can India even reach Beijing with bombers, even if they threw all their 5 time their gdp in the war. The chance of a conflict escalating beyond border skimrishes, and flag planting pr stunt to full on nuclear war is exactly zero (unless they become retarded and lose all rationality), unlike a Pakistan/India or China/USA conflict.

    • Agree: A123, Not Only Wrathful
  35. A123 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    The failure that is Chieh, abysmally flops again. As you have no comprehension of simple facts, being silent is your only viable option… but that is too much to hope for.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so. The result is the ongoing PR train wreck that is the current situation. If you are so smart, give us your solution to fix HK’s economy….. Put Up, or Shut Up.
    _____

    Fortunately, Xi is vastly more competent than you. Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan. Again, he has many legitimate ways to deflect blame over HK. The critical errors predate him.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors. Those of us who have observed Xi’s skills, intelligence, & temperament have different and more sensible predictions about his behaviour.

    any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare;

    You are completely ignorant about the physical size of India and its implication on the usefulness of air power. China could achieve U.S.-Vietnam style air superiority over the front. As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain. China has insufficient aircraft range and capability to run strikes over the entire nation of India to reach the most critical Southern Indian infrastructure.

    In 30-50 years when China has multiple super carrier task forces, the situation will be different. Until then, all rational minds realize their are severe limits on what the Chinese military can accomplish even though ‘on paper’ it has a better equipment list.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @BS
  36. Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let’s just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.

    They foresaw many things. And they don’t care – because HK has outlived its usefulness. The “dire financial consequences” such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever “PR” consequences(which China really doesn’t care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.

    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.

    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you’ll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and “wolf warrior” diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more “revisionist” and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.

    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.

    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

  37. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I believe that Tawang might be important for Tibetans for spiritual reasons, though.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  38. Jason Liu says:

    Given how competition with the US is heating up, this is either terrible timing by the CCP or good timing by India/US.

    We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Showmethereal
  39. Frankly, Russia could cash in on both sides. Both will be eager for support from the North and with a bit of plausible deniability they can get a load from both sides, not to speak of the fact it’ll be the perfect distraction for actions in Eastern Europe and the Middle-East. Unfortunately time repeatedly shows Russians are too cucked and disorganized to seize such once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, though I will be happy to be proved wrong.

  40. DB Cooper says:
    @Jason Liu

    “We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.”

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons. Now the subcons thanks their old master by conning them. See the comment from Europe Europa.

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
  41. utu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.

    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.

  42. This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it’s time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  43. DB Cooper says:
    @utu

    Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. Officially the Republic of China has never concedes outer Mongolia and has never recognized India’s land grabbing of South Tibet and still regards outer Mongolia and South Tibet part of the Republic of China. In fact in 1987 when India made South Tibet a state and renamed it to the so called Arunachal Pradesh the government of Taiwan put out a statement vehemently denouncing India’s travesty and vowed never of recognizing the so called Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

    FYI Outer Mongolia was carved out from China because Mao was colluding with the Soviet Union and when Mao came to power he gifted outer Mongolia to his patron the Soviet Union as a Soviet satellite.

    South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951.

    Here is the map of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan)

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @Showmethereal
  44. China has already won against India. China is a bustling, modern, insanely productive nation that is about to score top spot in scientific research.

    India is a craphole full of IQ 82 peasants whose main goal in life is to scam their way into a green card.

    The military part is irrelevant given that they are both nuclear powers.

    Talked to a Chinese coworker who was sent to India on a work assignment. He told me with horror in his eyes about the sanitation and how primitive it was. Case closed.

    • LOL: Ano4
  45. DB Cooper says:
    @Vishnugupta

    China has no desire to impose its will on its neighbors. In an ideal world of the Chinese, China will be surrounded by friendly prosperous countries. This is very different than India. In an ideal world of the Indians, India will be surrounded by weak and poor countries which India can imposes its will at whims. And this is how India treats Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Sri Lanka…etc. This is why in the lexicon of Indian foreign policy circles it always talk about keeping its smaller neighbors off balance. And this is why India is hated by its smaller neighbors.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    , @reiner Tor
  46. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Spiritual reasons and religious reasons, to be more specific.

  47. Exile says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Given the absolutely shambolic state of Trump at this point, I don’t see any country other than Israel making any moves that might help him galvanize support for four more years of incoherence and constant turnover – and even some of Israel’s factions have problems with him.

    It’s in no one’s interests to deal with a Chimerica that changes policies in unpredictable and arbitrary Trumpian fashion day-to-day rather than election-to-election.

    China & Russia both know how to play the long game and know that time is ultimately on their side. Israel controls both U.S. parties and all significant U.S. politicians so they aren’t worried about any single politician being indispensable.

    China knows Tiawan will be theirs within a generation. The U.S will not fight China over this when America’s bluff is finally called (nor should it, FWIW).

    India’s a darling of the GOP but those bridges are just starting to be built and the Republican Party is still just weak kabuki opposition at this point.

  48. @DB Cooper

    China has territorial disputes with India,Vietnam,Philippines,Malaysia among others.

    You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China.

    I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK.

    Most people on this blog are aware of these facts and not exactly stupid so I don’t know what your objective is.

    Perhaps certain Pakistani blogs will be more receptive to your China is a saintly country which has never done anything wrong and only wants peace and prosperity for all line of thought.

  49. DB Cooper says:

    “You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China.”

    Taiwan (aka Republic of China) has never recognized outer Mongolia’s independence. This is a fact. So it is reincorporated back into China. Outer Mongolia was part of China. It was carved out from China under the instigation of the Soviet Union (much like later day US was trying to carve out Tibet). The Nationalist government has never recognized outer Mongolia’s indepedence. Historically the Nationalist government has a department called the Ministry of Mongolia and Tibetan affairs and to my knowledge the Nationalist government has never officially disband the Ministry.

    China does not have land border dispute with Vietnam, only martime dispute.

    “I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK.”

    Why not? Hong Kong is infested with Indians, which is absolutely disgusting. And as far as Taiwan is concerned India is still occupying a piece of the territory of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan).

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  50. Tor597 says:
    @Jatt Arya

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

  51. @DB Cooper

    I said territorial disputes..not land border dispute.

    China has territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, Malaysia,Indonesia,Japan among others.

    Just like you claim all of independent UN recognized country of Mongolia as chinese territory there are other nutcase Chinese nationalists who claim Vladivostok and parts of Siberia(Qing Dynasty era historic claim).

    Therefore your assertion that India has problems with most of its neighbours but China does not stands disproved.No amount of screeching on your part will change this fact.

    Speaking of things disgusting have you started a nationwide campaign against eating bats,dogs,cats,cockroaches and other similar delicacies yet?

    (Apologies to most Chinese commenters reading this for the last statement but this one has been begging to be shown a mirror for quite some time now)

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Tor597
  52. Bad news boys.
    http://www.leta.lv/eng/defence_matters_eng/defence_matters_eng/news/1A95179C-13B3-4C27-A841-B082E614327E/

    China vs American Empire battle for unipolar supremacy will begin within 7 or 8 years.

  53. d dan says:
    @DB Cooper

    “Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. …”

    Whatever your opinion of the pros and cons of ROC vs PRC (and that is not an issue I want to debate), your statement of asking US to help ROC return back to mainland (and even getting back Mongolia & South Tibet) sounds like a delusion of epic grandeur that will make the “utu” sounds like a pragmatic “realist”.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  54. DB Cooper says:
    @Tor597

    Not at all. India was able to conquer its small neighbors by overwhelming its tiny neighbors with hordes of filthy hungry rapey smelly Hindoo dumb fuck. This is how Sikkim got annexed.

    http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
    http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/

    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html

    And this is why India rejected Bhutan’s proposal to build a highway in the Southern part of Bhutan a few years ago because the highway will purportedly enable Bhutan to better safeguard its southern border against hordes coming from the land of the rape and India can’t have that.

  55. Nodwink says:

    I’m on Team India for this one, even though Modi & his fanbois are retards. China can fuck off.

  56. Tor597 says:
    @Vishnugupta

    I agree with most of what you said.

    But I doubt being aligned with America will have much advantage going forward. America is a declining empire and I think Covid and BLM is going to finish us off.

    Getting more access to the American market won’t mean much if the Ametican market is no longer the leading consumer market.

    Besides, the main thing America needs from India is on the service side and that has already peaked out. I don’t see India capable enough to manufacture goods at large like China, Vietnam, or Mexico can.

    Do you really think white families from the west would want to relocate to India, even for a short business trip? I’ve been to India with even semi attractive white women and they did not feel safe at all around leering Indians all looking at them.

    • Agree: Escher
  57. neutral says:
    @DB Cooper

    How about neither India or China get it, but rather it goes to an independent Tibet.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  58. DB Cooper says:
    @d dan

    The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it because it is the PRC which concedes outer Mongolia. The ROC never did. Once you concede it is harder to take it back because if you do you are legally invading another independent country. The ROC doesn’t have this problem and in fact has every right to safe guard its territory and prevent it from being carved out and hence has every right to reincorporate outer Mongolia back to its territory if it is in control of the mainland. It is an unimpeachable act under the law of the United Nations.

    In the case of South Tibet neither the PRC nor the ROC has ever recognizes it to be part of India. Hence the PRC should, at a time of its own choosing, retake South Tibet and kick the Indian invaders out of the Chinese territory. I am sure when the PRC kick the Indians out of South Tibet the people in South Tibet will first and foremost have a collective big sigh of relief and Taiwan will be cheering on the side too. This is one of the things both sides of the strait can agree on and this is why I have been advocating this for a long time because it will create an atmosphere that is conducive to reunification.

    For your information the Nationalist government has been sending representations after representations first to the British Raj and later to India (after August 1947) of its repeated incursion into Chinese territory. In fact one of the last act of the Nationalist government before it retreated to Taiwan is to send yet another diplomatic protest to India of its incursion. India was one of the first countries to recognize the PRC as the government of China and in one full stroke shuts out the Nationalist government for good. But even that when India invaded and annexed Tawang in 1951 the Nationalist government (then in Taiwan) was vehemently denouncing India’s travesty.

    • Replies: @d dan
  59. Well I don’t see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I’m getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)…

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    , @Tor597
  60. Well I don’t see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I’m getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)…

  61. d dan says:
    @DB Cooper

    “The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it…”

    As I said, whatever the merits of PRC vs ROC, that is not the point of debate. It is the part of asking “US to help” that is showing your delusion. You are 与虎谋皮, if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  62. India vs China is a good example to illustrate flawed methodology behind Karlin’s “military strength” index. No way India is at one-third of China’s military potential. India is a highly dysfunctional third-world country, and would get its ass handed to it in any military confrontation. India’s logistics in Himalayas will be inferior to Chinese logistics.

    India used to be a good friend to USSR in the past, but more recently India’s elites developed unhealthy fascination with US&Israel. These two countries have pushed Russia out of India’s weapon’s market. And beyond weapons trade there is little that binds Russia and India together, Russia’s relationship with India is based on Soviet nostalgia, but severely lacking in substance.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  63. DB Cooper says:
    @d dan

    “if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.”

    I am toying with that dumb fuck utu, don’t you understand?

  64. soyuz says:
    @utu

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    I think a better analogy is to Cuba than Puerto Rico or Hawaii. Even geographically, the Taiwan Strait separating Taiwan from China is about the same as the distance between Cuba and Florida.

    Cuba is regarded as a “rogue” regime by the US, just like Taiwan is by the PRC. Cuba and Taiwan’s independence have been regarded as politically and ideologically illegitimate by Washington and Beijing. And they’ve been backed by adversaries, the USSR during the Cold War and the US in Taiwan.

    • Thanks: showmethereal
  65. @Felix Keverich

    Well we are still by far the biggest purchaser of Russian arms.

    We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.

    But yes you are right in the sense that the relationship is not as close as it used to be.

    Still FWIW there is still immense goodwill here for Russia for all the help in the USSR era.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @showmethereal
  66. neutral says:
    @Vishnugupta

    This is says it all what India is about these days.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    , @Escher
  67. Jatt Arya says:

    This thread is a good mixture of crazy wignats who believe too much of their racial conspiracy theories (while Indian CEOs take them offline) & I guess hapa? trolls who talk like India is stuck in the 3rd century with SSA human capital.

    Then u have Felix who probably has family members who were saved from starvation by 90s Indian MIC purchases.

    I’m waiting for the Anglos to show up||

    Vishnugupta they’re all your’s.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  68. @neutral

    There are similar pics of him with 20 other leaders.

    Yes we do have good relations with Israel mostly because of our common problems with people of a certain religious persuasion…

    • Replies: @neutral
  69. @Jatt Arya

    If India’s pro-American drift reaches its logical conclusion, I don’t see them buying any Russian weapons in the future. On the other hand, if China gives them a black eye right now, while US does nothing, it might get Indians to question the merits of allying with Washington.

    India is on a wrong path politically, but this confrontation might give it the jolt it needs to reassess its pro-American foreign policy.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  70. neutral says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Your common problems with Muslims in the greater scheme of things are close to nothing compared to what the jews pose as a threat to India.

    And this Muslim/Hindu conflict is nonsense anyway, they are both racially the same type, a Muslim can marry a Hindu and the children can become either of the two religions, I don’t see how they are any less Indian. You can’t say the same about a white marrying a non white however.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    , @Korenchkin
  71. I can’t wait for them to get humiliated by the Chinese

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  72. Escher says:
    @neutral

    LOL. There are plenty of pics of Putin spooning with Netanyahu.

    • Agree: Ano4
  73. Pentheus says:

    China vs. India war, if it ever happened: no contest.

    Chinese = army ants on the march
    Indians = mouse infestation

    Mice in large numbers become a self-cancelling self-liability of feces and starvation. (India is a literal “shithole” of overpopulation, feces, trash, and hunger.) Ants in large numbers are the true nature of ants. (Much of China is still primitive but there is not shit in the streets.)

    Stinging army ants can outswarm mouse hordes easily. Mice can never outswarm or even really hurt an army ant swarm on the march. Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind. Mice in a group are just a bunch of individual mice.

    Chinese people with “nothing to lose” are still strong, energetic and willing to die for the group good. Indian people with “nothing to lose” are scrawny, weak, cowardly and worthless militarily. Some Chinese WITH “something to lose” will still be fierce, group-minded, and willing to risk losing it. Indians with “something to lose” wouldn’t risk a stubbed toe.

    India could never do what the Chi-Coms did in overwhelming the Americans by sheer numbers, revolutionary esprit, and fearlessness in the Korean War.

    India is the most pathetic country in world history. Alexander the Great, with only a few thousand men, was poised to take over the whole thing – and he knew he could, easily – except that his men rebelled against going any farther away from home. The Mughals took India over, then the Brits.

    Nukes: sure, China and India both have them; but do both sides have equal willingness to USE them? China would not flinch if it were deemed necessary. Every Indian in charge is infected with Western “human rights” and approval-seeking – plus the “divinity is in everything” religious sensibility – which would flinch at hitting “The Button.”

    And even just on the individual physical level: what has India ever done in any sports besides cricket?

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @d dan
  74. @Tor597

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    India isn’t even a real country but rather a collection of different groups dominated by Hindus.

    In the event of full hostilities China can exploit the separatist movements as well as enmity with Pakis.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  75. Jatt Arya says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Indians are weak cucks who deserve a couple genocides until they wake up from this Gandhian nonsense।।

  76. Jatt Arya says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Doesn’t compare to the humiliation you seeth seeing non whites walking around London।।

  77. Jatt Arya says:
    @neutral

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You’re not demonstrating anything but how ‘whites’ get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।

    [MORE]

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You’re only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn’t been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don’t know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it’s obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  78. @Daniel Chieh

    Given the general & Covid inspired economic problems of the world, I suspect China will prioritize economic matters, if given a chance

  79. Request: Can Jatt Arya be banned from commenting? His contributions are low quality, numerous, and I think drive away intelligent discussion.

    • Disagree: neutral, EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  80. neutral says:
    @Jatt Arya

    Social construct indeed, so when children born in China never look like the ones born in Nigeria it’s because of cultural norms… The Indian caste system is just a way to explain the racial system, it is hardly a secret that the lighter and darker skinned browns don’t happily dance together like in some Bollywood movie.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  81. @Amerimutt Golems

    I guess it’s arguably the equivalent to calling Europe one country, as in the dominant religion is (or was) Christianity and native Europeans are mostly broadly ethnically related but almost every group has their own language and culture?

  82. @china-russia-all-the-way

    No, his powerful takes must never leave us.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Thanks: Jatt Arya
    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Ano4
  83. Meena says:

    India , Pakistan and China I hope can work things out Otherwise the Asian century will be lost or will always be on the edge .

  84. A123 says:
    @utu

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.

    There is 0% motivation for Trump to raise those stakes. He is pulling back on U.S. Force deployments.

    More importantly, Trump does not want to distract U.S. unparalleled success over China in other areas. He is handing Xi defeat after defeat after defeat on the trade front. For example:

    — USCMA — reducing the permitted % of Chinese auto parts.
    — Phase 1 of the China-US bilateral negotiations.
    — Made in USA requirements for medical goods (PPE), pharmaceuticals, etc.

    The next back breaking blow against Red Chinese exploitation is already in the way and Xi is helpless to stop it: (1)

    U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is testifying [today] at 10:00am to the House Ways and Means committee; later in the afternoon Ambassador Lighthizer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.

    The New York Times has received an advance copy of USTR Lighthizer’s opening statement, and the liberal publication is apoplectic the Trump administration plans to outline an even more aggressive stance toward the World Trade Organization (WTO). …

    One method to approach tariff inequality would be for the U.S. to lower the import value threshold for non-tariff exemptions. Currently the U.S. does not apply import duties to any product valued under $800. This is a great benefit to China, southeast Asia, and U.S. on-line retailers such as ebay and Amazon; however, the zero tariff threshold hurts U.S. manufacturers because China and other nations do not reciprocate.

    It is anticipated that USTR Lighthizer will inform congress the U.S. will lower that import threshold to match the same value level applied by other nations.

    China’s inefficient State Owned Enterprises are incapable of competing on fair terms. Exploitation is integral to their business model. Without it, they are in deep trouble.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/16/ustr-lighthizer-plans-to-outline-renewed-demand-for-international-tariff-reciprocity/

    • LOL: Swarthy Greek
    • Troll: showmethereal
  85. A123 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Troll Chieh,

    You state that Xi is totally committed to first use of violence. Yet, it is absolutely clear that he has not already attacked Taiwan. Only the brain dead would believe your “premeditated first strike” prognostication. Your position is self refuting. It does not correlate to objective facts in Xi’s record.

    As you are an insulting, fact-free TROLL — I add you to my blocked commenter s list.

    Please do not bother to respond. I will not see it, and no one else wants to hear it either.

    I feel pity for you.. Goodbye.

    PEACE 😇

    • Troll: neutral, Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Korenchkin
  86. @A123

    You are a coward as well as a moron, I see.

    • Agree: silviosilver
  87. @Vishnugupta

    Assembly work, whether in electronics or the automotive sector is a low added value business. India just can’t into high-tech and indigenous R&D, despite having a massive domestic market and being very protectionist. Just look at the DRDO: the Arjun tank, Tejas fighter, indigenous nuclear submarine… All these R&D projects have been massive failures despite getting plenty of funding commitments and foreign help. India will never match China economically or militarily, i even doubt it will catch-up to a Brazilified United States.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Vishnugupta
  88. Znzn says:

    The reason why right wing conservative men put the Chinese on a pedestal is simply because they want to have sex with Chinese women, plus since they have not been to China aside from the Tier 1 cities, they have not encountered Chinese proles, who are honestly no smarter than rural European proles.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  89. Znzn says:

    I think the previous US ambassador to the Philippines says that around 40 percent of US visitors to the Philippines are basically sex tourists like Jeff Styrker.

  90. Znzn says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    Well in fairness the Chinese still do not have a mass produced competitive civilian jet engine up until now.

  91. @A123

    he has not already attacked Taiwan

    Retard alert class!

  92. @Swarthy Greek

    How is our indigenous nuclear sub a massive failure?

    Its presently on patrol.

    The follow on sub is undergoing sea trials..

    Arjun tank is a failure yes.

    But I would not classify things like our space launch vehicles and satellites,agni missile system, shivalik/delhi/ vishakapatnam class naval ships,ALH and LCH helicopters,Param Supercomputers etc. as failures.

    LCA is massively delayed because of many issues but is presently being inducted and being improved in tranches..it is our first fighter plane project so obviously there are problems but an arjun tank type failure it is not.

    Also our auto industry is far more than simple assembly we build engines and most mechanical components of mainline BMW,MB,Audi and other brands in India.

    Our indigenous brands like Tata and Mahindra make fairly competent mainstream cars and SUVs.

    https://www.autocarindia.com/cars/tata/harrier

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  93. @utu

    This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks. Obviously China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat (which could easily lead to Xi being removed from power) or starting a world war. It’s difficult to tell which he would choose.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @d dan
  94. @DB Cooper

    It’s not like China is liked by its neighbors.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  95. KA says:

    India should defend its legitimate interest at all cost . But shouldn’t do anything for Uncle Sam unless it knows for sure that in this game of US-Chain rivalry it will come on the top . USA is known to betray and even destroy its allies not its enemy ( Israel ) .

    Believing in Israel is not fine but definitely taking advantage of. If Israel can thrust daggers at the hearts of the west ( USA UK France Germany ) , Jordan and Egypt ( Remember Israel wants the Palestinian disappear into Jordan without any concerns of the destabilization of its ally Jordan or Egypt who it threatened to bomb in 2002 { Lieberman -bouncer] , it can do same to India .

    India needs to focus on infrastructures and early education . and focus on universal Hindu message . I think Ghandhi has enormous contribution to India’s unity So had Subhas and Bankimchnadra and Swami Vivekanada .
    Muslims in India are not its enemy Neither are Dalits or Christians . But they may not agree entirely with every social and economic programs of Mr Modi .

    Indian population is overwhelmingly poor . China has done one thing- it has allowed that large segment of its population improve its economic fate .

    • Troll: Jatt Arya
  96. Jatt Arya says:
    @neutral

    You have light & dark in same family, tribe is real conflict. Or do brown haired Euros fight blondes?

    Race & nationality (or lack of) from a Christian perspective is of potential gene pool.
    Christianity doesn’t limit marriage by ancestry and has traditionally let women pick who they want.

    That is disgusting and ghey||

    Inter-caste marriage = death
    Don’t care for your opinion whether Curry Muslim, Nigger Christian or Huwhyte Christian is better.
    They’re all equally invalid,

    [MORE]

    Liberal race mixing propaganda is originally church propaganda

    “When the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.”

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm

    The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages; the level of commercialization, class stratification, and state formation are insignificant.”

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic “invention of individualism”.

    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html

    Individualism, race-mixing, feminism & globalism.
    Christian or Liberal?
    You decide.
    What’s the difference?

    • Replies: @songbird
  97. BS says:
    @A123

    Hong Kong accounts for 2% of China’s national GDP and has zero essential industries. The CCP could choose to liquidate every man, woman and child in Hong Kong and the country wouldn’t even notice it. Instead they’re using it as an example for domestic consumption of what happens when you allow Western subversion to spread unchecked. Any “PR nightmare” is this and this alone – do you think the CCP really cares about what some homosexual living in New York who cries when he reads about the latest fake atrocity porn about HK rioters in the NYT thinks?

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @A123
  98. @Daniel Chieh

    You’re obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China’s superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride – even more than usual for this group).

  99. songbird says:
    @Jatt Arya

    In the days of sail, Christianity allowed the tiny nation of Portugal to defeat Islamic navies thousands of miles away from the Portuguese homeland, thus gaining control of the Indian Ocean, and arguably becoming a boon to Hindus and Sikhs in the way that they diminished Muslim power.

    One of the secrets was the bells built for cathedrals which required advanced metallurgy. These techniques were turned to the development of powerful artillery – it is hardly cucked, when you are blowing Arabs and Turks sky-high, and taking over their trade.

    Of course, now Portugal looks like Brazil, so you may have a point. It may be that the Church allowed them to become too powerful, and that they would have been better of leaving Africa to the Arabs.

  100. @neutral

    This post is a good summary why nobody gives a shit about white nationalist opinions

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  101. Tor597 says:
    @Vishnugupta

    I am against China eating dogs and cats, but are you really in a position to call out others for being gross when your entire country sickens the rest of the world?

    So many clips I can bring up, but everything from not being able to shit in a toilet to drinking cow urine.

    Gimme a break. You hindu nationals are hard to tolerate.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  102. @Anatoly Karlin

    I suppose ultimately that I have to do more research into India’s industrial capabilities; there’s something just very strange about the unimaginable quagmire that their military systems undergo, whether the anti-ballistic missile system I mentioned or the painful and now halted development of the Su-57 when India pulled out on Russia abruptly after claiming the SU-57 was “too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines”

    The Russian version of the Su-57 reportedly is simpler than the Indian version was. The latter included Indian avionics and compatibility with a wider range of weapons. But the Indian fighter existed only on paper.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-india-rejected-russia%E2%80%99s-su-57-stealth-fighter-146771

    Its one thing to play around with weapons acquisition, but war is a very tail-heavy activity these days and it suggests a fundamental lack of communication and coordination in the armed forces. Lacking that, its hard to see how it can conduct any major modern warfare – obviously small arms and light infantry are different and quite self-sufficient, with enough martial spirit to make it work well, but that is of reduced importance in modern warfare(if unrestricted).

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    , @reiner Tor
  103. Tor597 says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Its not about relocating to India. Its more about having to travel several times a year there, and being able to bring your family along.

    I have done this several times in China for business and never felt like my family was unsafe. But there is no way in hell I would bring them to India.

    You say certain parts are safe. That is true about Detroit and Africa as well. Certain multinationals like Samsung can send their employees there and they will get 4 star hotels.

    But small and medium sized businesses are not going to go to India to do business.

    As far as the industries you mentioned, Mexico has these as well and so does Vietnam. Both these countries are far better alternatives than India.

  104. @Tor597

    You may want to see who started it before jumping to conclusions. I respect Chinese as a people and have no hesitation in stating that they have done better than us.I also have had several meaningful exchanges with Chinese commenters on this very blog.

    This was a rare retaliation to a particularly odious Chinese commenter which I have clarified in the comment itself.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  105. @Znzn

    Average European IQ is lower than the average Chinese IQ though, if their stats can be taken as representative of the whole population. The range of average IQ across different European nations is about 102 to 89, so the European average as a whole is going to be below 100. This is not taking into account majority Muslim nations like Albania and Bosnia which would lower the average even further.

    The average IQ in China is generally reported at around 104, there isn’t a single European nation that has an average IQ that high.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  106. Tor597 says:
    @Jatt Arya

    So your actually defending the caste system? How barbaric.

    • Troll: Jatt Arya
  107. A123 says:
    @BS

    do you think the CCP really cares about what … the NYT thinks?

    Well…. No one cares what The New York Dhimmi Times of Islam thinks. So on that point I have to agree with you.

    Do you think that China cares about the Anti-China fear it is creating in nations other than the U.S.? Its massive projects in Africa are already viewed by many in those nations as a not so subtle form of invasion.

    Who wants to do business with a highly unreliable, short sighted China that:

    -1- Strong armed the UK into handover?
    -2- Did nothing to head off a 100% predictable economic contraction?
    -3- Goes back on its word by ending ‘two systems, one nation’?

    #1 & #2 predate Xi, but still stain Chinese credibility on a broad front. Xi’s embrace of #3 oath breaking, shows willingness to change deals to obtain personally desired outcomes. Is this Xi’s role model?

    Troll Chieh’s plan for a military first strike against Taiwan would have even worse consequences. It probably would not be called an embargo, but almost every nation would begin reducing or cutting trade ties with violent, predatory China. It would effectively end the One Belt One Road initiative as potential partners would accurately perceive such engagement as a prelude to Red Chinese invasion.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  108. @A123

    And because of Crimea, sanctions happened and Putin was overthrown to the joyous clapping and tear-stained eyes of gender fluid Christian respectors of St. Fentanyl Floyd.

    Yeah right.

  109. Jatt Arya says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Feature not a bug.

    India only recently appointed a CDS after decades of wrangling,
    Liberal elites know the rural folk want their heads and are scared of a coup||

    Lt Gen (then Lt. Col) Harbaksh Singh during 1965 Indo-Pak War. He is the only Officer who demoted himself (from Col to Lt Col.) so he can join his boys in the battlefield. He was also awarded Vir Chakra in 1948 Indo-Pak War.[600×826] from MilitaryPorn

    Reply to songbird & tor below I’m not responding to anymore juvenile insults,
    if you want to fuck around we’re not hard to find.


    [MORE]

    Songbird, Indian metallurgy was ahead of the west till early 20th C.
    Will be again shortly, since kneepads are made of foam & rubber.
    If you can’t see how letting women fuck anyone is cucked, then go kneel.

    Marathas btfo’d Portuguese navy for decades.
    One of the pirates of the caribbean is a Maratha Naval Admiral.
    Shiva Ji Maratha beheaded many Padres as they would burn & loot temples in the 10,000s.

    Tor, stfu any Hindu with a spine is a “Hindu nationalist” any Sikh you don’t like is “Khalistani”
    India not being safe for whites is a feature not a bug.

  110. lin says:

    As a long time observer of india, let me repeat:
    –Since Independence, Bharat has been trying to project the image of an emerging major power(and recently superpower).
    **Apparently hard power is hard to come by, so they often maintain they’re this or that soft power ‘spiritual civilisation’ which they did have some success during the hippie movement.
    **It’s the only country that acquire an aircraft carrier in 1961, six years before they got their first submarine,WHy? I guess an aircraft carrier is good optics while subs usually submerge out of sight(Indian soldier in the 1962 sino-india war complained they only had lee Enfield bolt-action rifle while the Chinese soldiers had semi-automatics).
    **India detonated its first atomic bomb in 1974(10 yrs after china did), claimed to be a ‘peaceful’ bomb but didn’t weaponise until 20 yrs later the hindu nationalists won the election and started ‘Bharat Uday'(india shining)movement and started weaponizing their nukes. Pakistan also went nuclear and thus made previous indian military edge over Pakistan irrelevant because any war between the 2 can go nuke very easily. Mr. Vajpayee sure was Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
    **The 1962 sino-india war which left the hindus such painful scar could’ve been avoided if Nehru realized bigpowerdom has a schedule
    ………..
    Hindus nationalists(of which Jatt Arya is a good example)have been suffering severe mental malaise since 1947. I browse a number of hindu sites and the amount of chest thumping is amazing
    **recently they complained indian made bullet proof vests for indian soldiers endanger the lives of the latters because the manufacturer uses imported Chinese materials.
    “Lives of 1, 86,318 Indian armies personal are at risk. The protective armor which helps them to save their life has now become a threat to them as the raw materials of the bulletproof jackets are taken from China. Although it was clarified by the officials of the manufacturing company that the quality of the vests is not compromised and the vests made up of Chinese raw material also meet quality standards, whereas, army officials choose to remain silent on this matter.”
    https://thepolicytimes.com/lives-of-indian-soldiers-are-at-risk-as-the-chinese-materials-find-way-to-the-indian-army-bulletproof-vests/
    **I’m not surprised that china makes cheap bullet proof vests because of the scale and efficiency of Chinese manufacture but it’s extremely puszzling that Chinese also make cheap incense sticks(for hindu/buddist rites)
    https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/agarbatti-imports-restricted-amid-significant-increase-in-shipments-from-china-vietnam/1692212/

    • Replies: @lin
  111. songbird says:

    Interesting to compare film industries. Neither seems to have much of an export market compared to H-wood. Top-grossing Chinese films earn a lot more, but they seem to have more foreign intrusion into their market. An Indian hit Dangal, even appears at #45 over there.

    I wish one or the other would make a movie where the Statue of Unity was hit by a nuke – it is big enough to make for an interesting SFX shot. Each should make a movie, where they were at war with the other fellow – would be good viewing – but regrettably, I don’t think the Chinese censors would approve it.

    Is Indian disunity a strength? Maybe, it would make it difficult to deploy the national guard to enforce desegregation there. Maybe, the historical diversity makes poz more difficult to spread. Or is it worse, since it encourages the adoption of English? India should consider putting a tax on the English language to pay for anti-poz police.

    • Agree: Jatt Arya
  112. @Daniel Chieh

    Your points as regards Hong Kong and Taiwan are in direct contradiction. If Taiwan siding with Japan is an insufferable insult, then HK siding with everyone but the CCP is much more so.

    Your comparison, of the Chinese aggression on Vietnam, with a potential conflict with India, is also inapt, for the purposes you used it for.

    Vietnam as good as won, despite being a far less insurmountable target for China than India would be.

    The CCP would have to be bonkers to make any serious aggression on India. That you can’t see it, suggests a serious problem with your perception.

    Your rationale of wars of attrition making more industrialised countries stronger, has no basis in history. Especially ones that don’t end in the total defeat of the enemy, which China would be completely incapable of doing…except perhaps by moving to some sort of total war footing and with a lot of luck and no outside intervention; but China would destroy itself to do that.

    I perhaps shouldn’t be taking this whole conversation seriously. Both Chinese and Indians are real men and both countries are perfect and have no flaws; except that they are too good, or smart or amazing or something…

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  113. Hartnell says:

    My money is still on India. I watched a combat simulation once of what would happen in a sparring match between the two and India pretty much came out on top due to the favourable usage of their terrain. China would try to advance but would end up losing valuable equipment. In other words, a major land war between the two would be a huge logistical defeat for China.

  114. @Jatt Arya

    I don’t know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it’s obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    That is certainly the role they play within the psyche of part of the Western far right.

  115. Isn’t the Indian caste system essentially a form of racial hierarchy? Although no one sees it like that because “racial” rhetoric only applies to whites/Europeans, and no one perceives even entirely Aryan Indians as white.

    It seems the caste system is essentially about the Indians with most Aryan ancestry subjugating those with the most Dravidian ancestry, but no one sees light skinned Aryan Indians subjugating dark skinned Dravidians as racist because it’s just seen as Indians subjugating Indians, not in the same context of whites/Europeans subjugating blacks or other non-whites.

  116. lin says:
    @lin

    The dream of generations of hindu nationalists:
    https://scroll.in/article/948319/india-superpower-2020-tracing-the-brief-history-of-a-spectacularly-incorrect-prediction
    (I personally have lots of respect for Mr. Abdul Kalam; he wasn’t a real rocket scientist as portrayed but he brought back to india a copy of blue print of US Scout rocket which the first indian satellite launcher was based on)

  117. @Jatt Arya

    The place where the skirmishes are happening is an high altitude desert and not affected by monsoon. As for Arunachal Pradesh in the north east, I dont think it’s going to escalate to that level and spread a thousand miles east. Both India and China are pragmatic and even though Modi is not very intelligent, he has competent advisors. This is just a bit of theater for domestic/public consumption.

  118. @Vishnugupta

    Your indigenous SSBN is basically a kilo class submarine with a nuclear reactor. It’s essentially a 1970s design that carries only 4 full-sized ICBMs and is still not in service. The PLA Navy was able to design an SSBN in the midst of the cultural revolution and put it in service in 1981 without any foreign input, whereas India hasn’t finalised its sub despite getting massive technology transfer from Rubin (Russia) and DCNS (France). Indian engineering sucks, period. India should focus on public works, getting a proper , professional civil service and beefing up internal security instead of dreaming of standing up to China.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  119. Rahan says:

    Let’s remember that while China can count only on itself in terms of high-tech, India has Japan, the US, and the UK. With this kind of backing, it is automatically equal to China, without having to make the effort that China makes. As long as the backing is there, India will have tech and intel more than equal to that of China, without having to work for it.

    In the 21st century, India is going to be an increasingly important player in the “Sealand” civilization, providing the demography (and resultant biomaterial for various big data and vaccination research), while Japan and the US/UK providing the tech.

    And Hong Kong and Taiwan providing “proper Chinese” people for absorption as well.

    So India vs China is in effect a combination of the “1st World leaders + India” vs China.

    Not unlike when Hitler invaded the USSR, people tend to forget that before that he had already consolidated the European continent for his own needs, through war and alliance. Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    And thus today, when China is being poked by India, or by Taiwan, or by Japan, it’s never just them. In each case it’s the whole developed world vs China. Minus, this time, continental Europe. But US+UK+Japan+India+minor allies is also more than formidable.

    At least China doesn’t have to worry about its northern border, that’s something.

    …It’s probably time to read up on the Italy/Austria warfare history in WWI and WWII, to see how mountain border warfare played out.

    • Troll: Swarthy Greek
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Tor597
  120. @Daniel Chieh

    They did manage to finish some projects, like the Brahmos (I believe jointly with Russia) or the nuclear submarine (again, with Russian help). Also they have a space program, and built nukes and ballistic missiles. I’m pretty sure that they would be a mishmash of a few fantastic achievements, lots of mediocrity and also a number of highly ridiculous, idiotic failures.

    • Replies: @last straw
  121. Znzn says:
    @Europe Europa

    How much is the IQ of Europeans being weighed down by youths that are vibrant? Especially since IQ estimates are for school age kids that are majority non-white in most Western European countries anyway? Plus my point stands, if China has a median IQ of 104, and China has a population of 1.4 billion, that still means that there are 500 million Chinese with an IQ at or below 90. What is the IQ of White Western Germans or White French and White Austrians of age 25 to 45?

  122. It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  123. A123 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You’re obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    AK,

    Perhaps I misunderstood the question. The original concept as I read it was, “Can China Defeat India?”

    I do not see anyway that China could seize control of India. It is too big, with too many troops and people. It would be the largest counterinsurgency quagmire in the history of modern warfare. Breaking India’s regular infantry would result in troops returning to their home towns. That would provide core skills to feed a Hindu guerilla counter offensive.

    Chinese air superiority would be helpful to their side. However, planes break things. They do not hold land. Even a complete ‘wipe’ of the Indian Air Force would not result in Chinese military victory over India.

    So, if the question is, “Can China Defeat India?” The answer is “No. It would almost certainly be a stalemate some kind.”
    _____

    If you want to envision a different question posing a more limited engagement we can look at it. However, the fact that both sides have nukes makes ‘limited’ a problematic concept. Mistakes could lead to unplanned escalation.

    The reason why India & Pakistan are stuck in a perpetual skirmish over Kashmir is the fact that escalation could lead to a thermonuclear exchange. As much as both sides want to win, the obvious lose-lose potential is easy to find.

    PEACE 😇

  124. Znzn says:

    So why doesn’t India have a widespread motorway network and HSR network like China?

  125. @Swarthy Greek

    No it is not based on a kilo.Incidentally miniaturizing a reactor to fit inside a kilo would be quite a technical achievement.

    It is a 6000 tonne nuclear submarine a kilo is 2800 tonne ssk.

    It is in service as in there are regular 50-70 day patrols. It is presently armed with k 4 slbms 4 each..

    We will build 3 more of this same class then we go to S5 which is a proper SSBN 13000 tonne displacement 16 K6 SLBMs…

    Our N sub has benefitted indirectly from DCNS Scorpene deal the subtics combat management system was the base for its CMS and Russian technical assistance was sought is specific areas (heat exchanger, acoustic quieting of the propeller etc but the design is Indian and frankly not bad at all for a first attempt but yeah obviously it’s no Ohio class/Borei class SSBN…

    You picked the wrong example to run down Indian engineering capabilities.

    We will eventually have a fleet of 4-6 S5 SSBNs with 16 SLBMs each our goal has never been to match China just to be well armed enough to not be completely dependent on a foreign power for our own security.

    We also have our own operational GPS satellite cluster btw IRNSS.

  126. @DB Cooper

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons.

    Wow Mr DB Cooper, you disregard historical accounts for technicalities. If we apply the same yardsticks, then Italy was the same, as was the USA, Russia and every country in the world except for some tiny Pacific atolls. Most countries were tiny fiefdoms that grew to become what they are today.
    As for India, the whole ancient world acknowledged India’s geographical location and approximate territorial borders long before they were even aware of the western barbarians.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  127. @songbird

    as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    Have you been injecting methanol directly in to your brain or something?

  128. @Max Payne

    They didn’t win the first, why would they win the second?

    Face it, China is a cucked society.

  129. @Jason Liu

    Do you for a minute believe India is doing this out of their own volition without “outside encouragement”?
    As to the Chinese side. South Tibet is in Indian hands. Chinese governments are judged by territorial integrity (not letting foreigners bully China) and quality of life. The first one is in play.

  130. @Vishnugupta

    India is already entering arms agreements with the US – which basically smacks Russia in the face. It also just signed agreements with Australia. There is no way the 5 Eyes will let China just keep climbing up the ladder without trying to impede them. They would have no quallms in India spilling its blood to accomplish that purpose either. India should realize that from British colonialism days.
    I hope both sides play it cool. In 1962 – a poor China who had beef with both the US and the Soviets – still went ahead and fought India. There is no need for either side to tempt fate again. Im not certain why the Indian media lives to beat the drum beat.
    Maybe if both sides let the soldiers have their wives or girlfriends come visit them on weekends the testosterone can have a better outlet than pummeling each other.

  131. @DB Cooper

    I am no defender of Mao – but in reality the ceding of Outer Mongolia was a direct betrayal of Chiang Kai Shek by the US who negotiated with Stalin during WW2. Mao had no sway… Though yes he did recognize it when he did get to power (and Outer Manchuria).

  132. Why did the chinese attack the indians, did the indians cross the border, I sometimes watch english language news programs of indian channels on you tube, they are going ape shit over this lotsa propaganda and hyperbole from the anchors and guests,all they do is parrot trump and the american news medis they know nuthing about the the chinese whatever they know is from the net , before the internet they thought chinese were similar to mongols , now its Han this Han that, I have no doubt this shitstorm was started by the indians, one of the commentors on a indian military website was pissed that a indian reporter spilled the beans sayin modi was pissed with the army, that comment has been taken down.

  133. Escher says:
    @A123

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    • Replies: @A123
  134. @Rahan

    Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    That’s not entirely correct. French and Belgian GDP dropped significantly after the Germans occupied it (mostly because of the British blockade, but also because of other factors), and it’s not like the Germans could use all French resources the way they could use their own resources, especially not in the southern part of the country. They had to deliver Sweden coal and weapons to receive anything from them, and the same is true of Sweden and even Italy. Even countries nominally part of the war effort only spent a fraction of their resources on the war. For example Hungary and Romania kept a large portion of their respective armies on their common border against each other, up until 1944, when Romania switched sides.

  135. @A123

    you know nothing about china , chinese exports are dwarfed by what it consumes internally,if china was desperate they would let all the foreigners that work for the multinationals who are frothing at the bit to go back to china , my hope is they keep all furriners out for a long time

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  136. A123 says:
    @Escher

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    Pretty simple.

    — The SJW Globalist multinational tax dodgers will be run out of town.
    — Exploitative foreign SOE’s will no longer be able to dump their junk on us.
    — U.S. Firms will out compete the Chinese assemblers of iJunk.

    Better goods, at better prices, from better companies that pay their taxes.

    Winning is not that hard. All it takes is the will.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Escher
  137. Escher says:
    @A123

    Who are these US firms that you speak of, Tonto?
    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    • Replies: @A123
  138. I wonder why no one has posted this yet…

    Disclaimer: no idea it it’s true but it certainly falls in the line 😀

  139. @Daniel Chieh

    From what I have read, the Chinese plan is for the island of Hainan to replace HK.

    Completely.

    And Hainan is supposed to become even more than HK is now.

    HK (the politicians and the business class) is fucked because they couldn’t solved the retarded protester problem.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @EldnahYm
  140. @utu

    That is the same as declaring war with China.

    You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.

    • Replies: @d dan
  141. @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    Why take the Zionist troll so seriously?

    Why are you all taking the troll so seriously?

  142. @Astuteobservor II

    Interestingly, China now offers many Western nationalities visa free entry to Hainan, like Hong Kong does, which seems like a deliberate attempt to turn it into a replacement for Hong Kong.

  143. A123 says:
    @Escher

    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    hi ho Silver!

    Grab a SJW Globalist firm by the balls and squeeze (yes they are tiny and hard to find).

    If there are $300+ in tariffs per imported iPhone. Apple will have no choice but to manufacture in the U.S. … Or, go bankrupt.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Daemon
  144. Meena says:
    @Vishnugupta

    will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.”

    Isn’t India too diverse to allow for emergency ? Indira Gandhi cant achieve in those days without mass communication that Indians have today . Regional parties are more restive aggressive and equally corrupt . They will fight to the last blood .

    India can join the US camp now There is no other discernible camp and no one in opposition has any concept what the camp means given the fact that all of them including Communist are inside the US club either directly or indirectly . It is possibly correct to say India is already in the camp .

    USA cant force its companies to go anywhere Companies decide to go and USA facilitates the journey

    It was not Modi gov’s failure to attract the business fleeing from China . Companies did not find the level of skill and infrastructure in India alluring enough to relocate .

  145. Antonius says:
    @Max Payne

    I prefer slopes to street shitters, but not by much. The downside would be a tsunami of street shitters heading west as refugees. I have adopted a truly vulgarian animus given the supine leadership infesting the western world. In South Africa Rhamaphosa is gleefully welcoming the latest distraction not unlike a guilty schoolboy welcomes a sick helping evade responsibility.

  146. @Anatoly Karlin

    China probably has overwhelming superiority in electronic warfare with their newly established Strategic Support Force. China probably also enjoys enormous supremacy in drone warfare. In light of how easily the Turkish UAVs destroyed Russian air-defense systems such as the Pantsir missile system in Syria, China’s advantage in such systems should be underestimated.

  147. @reiner Tor

    Most of India’s major military programs are miserable failures, such as the 20-30 year development of the Arjun main battle tank and the Tejas light fighter.

  148. @Anatoly Karlin

    I believe the Indian officer corps is known for having fewer shortcomings in corruption than other sections of India. There is a climate of meritocratic promotion with low corruption. One out of four army chiefs are Khatris (a Punjabi Hindu high caste) indicating good quality rises up the ranks. Sikhs, another group with high martial spirit is disproportionately represented. Two percent of India is Sikh but they are about 20% of the officer corps.

    Besides these advantages, Indian and Western assess Chinese military infrastructure to be not well prepared for a war near the Indian border. China doesn’t have much personnel, equipment or aircraft near the border with India.

    In the northern Xinjiang sector’s two airfields Hotan and Kashgar – the distance between them is 450 km while the distance between Hotan and Gargunsa is 550 kms. Hotan to Korla, the distance is 750 km so they are not mutually supportive. In western Tibet, there is only one airfield, Gargunsa. If Gargunsa is bombed by the Indian Air Force, there will be a gap of 1,500 km between Hotan and nearest airfield Hoping.”

    Group Capt (Retd) Chhatwal concludes by making a pertinent point: “There is another limitation which they have. In the airfield, when you park aircraft for fighter operations, they have to be in blast protected shelters – concrete shelters. China doesn’t have any blast protected shelters at any of the airfields. After Doklam they have realised their mistake and have now started building these in Kongka Dzong (Lhasa) airfield.”

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/india-china-stand-off-a-comparison-of-the-military-and-air-defence-prowess/597635

    However, Indians don’t see the forest for the trees. I have never heard a single Indian analyst connect the dots in this way: Doesn’t the lack of military infrastructure and resources indicate there is no strategy by China to provoke a limited war? Indian strategists to the contrary at the start of the standoff generally assumed China planned to fight a limited war or launch some other kind of belligerence.

    The credibility of the Indian media has carried that malevolent China narrative around the world with Karlin seeming to adopt the Indian point of view about Chinese intentions. In some ways, the level of global trust in Indian newsprint might be India’s best advantage. As Saker pointed out big power warfare nowadays is a bit kinetic and a huge information contest follows.

    Regardless of caste borne elan of the Indian officer corps or China’s lack of military preparedness near the border, I think GDP, GDP per capita and military spending are the metrics that trump everything else.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  149. d dan says:
    @reiner Tor

    “This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks.”

    How is protecting Taiwan any “reward” to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?

    “China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat… “

    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.

    “It’s difficult to tell which he [ Xi ] would choose.”

    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell. Most Chinese (including overseas Chinese) know the answer. I suspect some Chinese as clueless as Taiwanese greens also know the answer.

    And that is why “utu” suggestion is so idiotic – interfering into other people affair halfway around the world without clear understanding of what others think. Come to think about it – isn’t this exactly what US (and some European countries) has been doing all along (in middle east and elsewhere)?

  150. A123 says:

    Breaking News (1)

    Calls are growing in India for a boycott of Chinese products after the latest in a string of violent clashes between Indian and Chinese troops along the contested border left 20 Indian soldiers dead.

    The Confederation of All India Traders (CAIT), a powerful small business lobby, condemned “Chinese military aggression” on Wednesday and released a list of “more than 500 broad categories” of imported Chinese goods to boycott.

    Chinese state media was, unsurprisingly, nonplussed at the prospect of Indian boycotts. China’s Global Times lauded “rational voices in India” who argue that it’s “unrealistic and self-destructive for Asia’s third-largest economy to launch frictions with the largest economy in the region.”

    Indian Prime Minister Modi sounded like he was in no mood for either threats or lectures from China on Wednesday, vowing that the deaths of Indian soldiers “will not be in vain” and his nation would be “proud that our soldiers died fighting the Chinese.”

    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)

    Brussels is set to unveil on Wednesday a proposal for sweeping new powers to crack down on foreign subsidies, in its most aggressive push yet to curb the influence on the European market of companies backed by China and other governments.

    [The EU] aims to review deals when a foreign company acquires control over an EU target, or at least 35 percent of the voting rights, according to the draft.

    It is also seeking to beef up control over public procurement and access to EU funds to ensure a level playing field between EU businesses and foreign competitors that receive public support.

    In the end, this could mean foreign companies could get fined, be banned from acquiring EU companies or from participating to public tenders in the bloc.

    The CCP’s incompetence, inflicting WUHAN-19 on other nations, has freed up a huge back log of measures that were previously contained by paid Chinese shills/lobbyists.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/06/17/indians-call-boycott-china-after-deadly-border-clash/

    (2) https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/16/brussels-forges-new-weapons-to-shield-eu-market-from-china-325145

    • Replies: @last straw
  151. d dan says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    “You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.”

    Yes, so many of them still couldn’t grasp what Sun Tzu counselled for over 2000 years: “Know yourself and know your enemy”.

    Or if they don’t like ancient eastern wisdom, at least listen to similar advice from Lincoln about “Keeping your enemy closer”.

  152. @neutral

    Why would China give it up? Tibet was part of China longer than the US has been a country. China’s problem was they gave the region too much autonomy. So Tibetans are taught Mandarin now…. Just like any normal country. Are Catalans deserving of their own country? What about Venetians and Genoans? Hawaiians? Okinawans??? How about we have an even 1000 countries?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Philip Owen
  153. Tor597 says:
    @Rahan

    What I fear the most is a semi alliance with India, and then India gets the shit kicked out of her.

    And then a bunch of Indians move to the west as refugees. This would be a total disaster for the west.

  154. Obviously, it will sour India’s relations with China and move it even closer to the Americans.

    As if that is a bad thing for China or a good thing for America. For China, it would be a win-win.

  155. Can someone tell me why the Chinese and Indians are having a go at it in the first place? I fail to see the benefit of such a conflict to either side.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  156. India still officially believes that it is competing with China, even though it lost this game a long time ago. Deep down they know that, hence their attempts to befriend the Empire. This is about as smart as the same attempt by Syrian Kurds: the Empire uses whoever it can, and then discards “allies” like used condoms.

    • Agree: DB Cooper
  157. KA says:

    “ For all of Mr. Modi’s aggressive rhetoric, the clash has underscored how far India has fallen behind its neighbor, militarily and economically.

    “India has no options, or limited ones,” said Rahul Bedi, a military analyst in Delhi. “Appeasement is a risk,” he added, but one that “may be more digestible for now.”

    Others in India say that the danger of inaction is greater. China has chipped away at territory along the disputed frontier — seizing about 23 square miles in the past two months.”

    Ms. Madan of Brookings said that many Indians viewed this as “salami slicing”

    “It’s not lost on folks that this is the fourth major boundary incident since 2012,” she said, referring to the year Mr. Xi rose to power. “What they seem to be trying to do is the territorial version of what they have done in the South China Sea.”

    Samir Saran, the president of the Observer Research Foundation, a Delhi think tank, who is seen as close to Mr. Modi’s government, said that if India does not stand up to China, Beijing may double down and continue to claim more contested terrain.

    “You don’t surrender to a powerful enemy,” he said.

    “There have to be costs attached to Chinese behavior,” Mr. Saran added. “India may have to be prepared for series of limited skirmishes to occasional conflicts. Maybe that is the new normal in our region.”

    NYTimes 6/17/2020

  158. @Showmethereal

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

  159. @Vishnugupta

    “We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.”

    True… But Russia sold the S-400 to India for a lower cost per unit. 30 years ago – India would have most likely gotten the better deal (or rather China might not have even gotten it). Russia’s intelligence network is still pretty formidable. It seems to me Russia realizes India is pivoting harder towards the 5 Eyes and so isn’t doing it any favors anymore.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  160. @Erik Sieven

    It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.

    Does it matter? Each country has a billion more for the meat grinder.

  161. @Pentheus

    Ouch! That was harsh… But there is a lot of truth in how you put it…
    In any event – let’s hope there is no war.

  162. Svevlad says:

    Russia can step in and do a bit of their 19th century “you get this, you get that” magic to fix it and profit as arbiter

    Shouldn’t be hard to convince both sides – the land in question is just slightly less useless than Bir Tawil

  163. @Europe Europa

    Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can’t be the only one.

    A valid casus belli, if ever there was one.

    • Replies: @WV Guerrilla
  164. @AnonFromTN

    China is weird in how it fragments and reunites always. Even two dynasties under suppose barbarian rulers.

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers it’s provinces.

    The very Chinese first reaction would probably be disbelief that any outsider can be that stupid, and arrogant enough to think they can dictate terms to China on that scale.

    The second would probably be war.

    Remember when trump gave a phone call to Taiwan’s current president, remember the immediate Chinese response?

    War baby, it is on. 1000% at that point.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  165. @showmethereal

    Well Russia leased us an improved Akula 2 submarine. This is fairly state of the art tech second only to yasen class in terms of technical sophistication as far as Russian SSNs go.It is unlikely this would be done if we were deemed untrustworthy.

    Then there are programs like Brahmos 2 hypersonic cruise missile..It is very unlikely this sort of cooperation would be on offer if Russia has made the sort of assessment you are speculating it has..

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  166. @Abelard Lindsey

    Smart Indians would tell you this is for Indian domestic consumption as modi needs a distraction for the public.

  167. Why did the chinese attack the indians, did the indians cross the border, I sometimes watch english language news programs of indian channels on you tube, they are going ape shit over this, lotsa propaganda , lies and hyperbole from the anchors and guests,all they do is parrot trump and the american news medis they know nuthing about the the chinese whatever they know is from the net , before the internet they thought chinese were similar to mongols , now its Han this Han that, I have no doubt this shitstorm was started by the indians, one of the commentors on a indian military website was pissed that a indian reporter of a major tv news channel spilled the beans sayin modi was pissed with the army, that comment has been taken down.

  168. If china was to somehow land on indian soil the indians would hold out for maybe a week , your mics can only produce so much, there will be no guerilla anything , maybe and that is a big maybe the khalistani punjabis might hold out for a bit but by a little coercion from their brothers over the border they too would give up.

  169. @Showmethereal

    There will be the EU instead. Now strong and stable and without Britain to push for expansion, no new full members in a hurry. Deepening itself but with satellites like Egypt, Russia (+EaEu) and Turkey held by a strong economic gravitational pull.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  170. Don’t the Indians and Chinese routinely throw stuff at each other up there in the Himalayans? And when that happens don’t some of them fall off the mountain? So will this lead to an actual war? How would you even fight a war on top of huge mountains? Guess I am on the side of the mountains winning.

  171. Ano4 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    He adequately depicts the riches of the Hindustani geopolitical tradition.

    🙂

  172. @d dan

    I have to disagree. US govt understands perfectly. If China is weak, it would not even blink before interfering with China. Just like it did at the end of 1949.

    You are reading n hearing all the bullshit now because USA can’t do that now.

    Utu might not understand, but the US and Chinese govts understand each other perfectly.

  173. d dan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.”

    No, what you described is not the “current”. EU is supposedly to be a project in the other direction. Vietnam fought with cost of millions lives to unite their country. What used to be Sikkim, Nagaland, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad etc are now part of India. Okinawa and Hawaii used to be independent nations too. The Koreans also tried with war, and are still working toward unification. China has been extremely patient, waited for over 150 years to get back Hong Kong and Macao peacefully, and hopefully through peaceful mean too with Taiwan.

    The world with 1,000 or 10,000 nations is not necessary a better place than one with 200 or even 10 nations. It will be much more chaotic, much more inefficient (e.g. trades, travels, technology,…), much less effective (e.g. in solving global problems like environment protection, climate change, terrorism, standard settings,…) and likely more disputes, conflicts and wars.

  174. The largest army of WW2 was the British 14th army, largely composed of Indian units with most other troops from Africa. It took a while to assemble and train. Once it was in place, it pushed the Japanese back without let up. The victory was won in battle not by manouvre. The Japanese took their biggest land losses of the war against the 14th Army. The Kwantung Army that surrendered to the Soviet Union was bigger than the prisonor count of the 14th Army but not by much prior to surrender. The Kwantung Army put up no serious fight. It did not have the supplies.

    After independence, the short lived Dominion of India invaded 600 independent states to form the modern Indian federation. This was an act of substantial skill by the Indian Army, which still included former British officers in the general staff of the time.

    So, the Indian Army has a substantial tradition of success of its own. It is not going to retreat quickly in front of the PLA. The PLA will have to earn its victories by battles. Losses will be high on both sides but the Indian Army has a tradition of coming back from large losses. The PLA overwhelmed Chiang with a vast quantity of surplus Soviet weapons and supplies, not battle victories.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta, AaronB
    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  175. @Philip Owen

    Philip,

    Shhh….

    There is a near unanimous conclusion on this thread that China will beat the living day lights out of India with out breaking a sweat. Since this is a 104 IQ China vs 70 IQ India, IQ worshiping Unzites are rooting for Chinese organ harvesters against dirty Indians 🙂

    Of course India has around 13.5 Divisions facing China along LAC
    (XIV corps – 2 divisions and 1 armored brigade = 25,000 +25,000 + 4000 = 54,000 Men
    IX Corps – 25,000 men
    1 reserve division 25,000 men
    XXXIII corps – 3 divisions and 1 art brigade = 25,000 * 3 + 4000 = 79,000 men
    IV corps – 3 Div =75,000 Men
    III corps – 3 Div =75,000 Men
    XVII corps – 1.5 Division = 40,000 Men
    Total army men tasked with China = 290,000 Men
    )

    On Chinese side they have 76th and 77th group army (~150,000 men) and 3 Brigades (~18-20K) BTW only these 3 brigades are any where closer to Indian border. All others are few hundreds kilometre away.

    If they have to bring more men into the theater, they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas. But hey they are super humans. They don’t need any acclimatization or logistical support. They can drive their SUV’s directly into India.

    Except a very few places, terrain is not suitable for any mechanized warfare. But that restriction applies only to inferior IQ people. Geographical constraints do not apply to Chinese supermen.

    When it comes to Airforce, things like lack of facilities in Tibet, very few air to air refuelers etc do not matter. Of course Chinese are superior. Silly things ability to operate at max 288 modern airplanes or constraints like lifting only half the payload when taking off from Tibet are irrelevant.

    Since Indians are 70 IQ inferior people, they are not going to disrupt G-19 highway parallel to the LAC, through which ALL Chinese supplies have to pass. Similarly the bridges on the crucial logistical arteries like Lhasa-G219 route or Hotan-G219 route will not be taken out by India because of their inferior IQ.

    Did I mention about happy Tibetians who would never sabotage Chinese logistical tails?

    India stands no chance.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @lin
  176. The following is the most detailed timeline on the clash so far.

    1. Token disengagements followed the Lt Gen-level talks between India and China that were held on June 6 in a bid to resolve the month-long border standoff in Eastern Ladakh.

    2. Mid-week, the Chinese came back and set up camp on the Indian side. India dismantled the camp, following which a scuffle broke out between the troops of both the sides, injuring several soldiers.

    3. The Chinese troops went back only to return in larger numbers over the weekend. Some stone-pelting took place on Sunday, June 14.

    4. On Monday (June 15) evening, clashes broke out on a ridgeline with a high drop towards the Galwan river. The clashes escalated rapidly and according to sources, many Indians soldiers fell into the river during the scuffle.

    After India and China had agreed that Chinese troops would further disengage and return to their territory in Ladakh’s Galwan Valley on June 6, talks between major generals of both sides were supposed to take place on June 16.

    5. As the PLA troops didn’t move back, an unarmed patrol team of the Indian Army led by Colonel Santosh Babu of 16 Bihar Regiment set out to hold a discussion with the Chinese side.

    The Chinese refused to move back and deliberately aggravated the situation. They started to attack the Indian delegation with boulders, rocks wrapped with barbed wire and wooden log with nails around them. The Indian side also retaliated.

    Indian military sources said no firearms were used in the clashes and that most of the injuries were sustained following stone-pelting and use of rods by the Chinese side.

    6. After the first hit by the Chinese troops, the CO was grievously injured. Indian troops took the CO and an injured havaldar back, leaving behind some injured soldiers, who were taken captive immediately by the Chinese side.

    7. After nearly 40 minutes, the same unit, led by a Major, went back to that particular area and raided again. Once they reached the site, things escalated even further.

    8. The Indian troops assaulted the Chinese post with brutal strength and seriously injured nearly 55-56 Chinese solider. Many casualties were inflicted at this point. Sources said there were many fatalities on the Chinese side but there was no confirmation on the exact number.

    All this was happening near a ridge and many of the soldiers were pushed down a cliff into the narrow, fast-moving Galwan river. The Indian party was vastly outnumbered by the Chinese, as per sources.

    This is the time when many of the casualties on the Indian and Chinese side happened.

    There apparently was a brigadier-level Chinese officer on the post who waved for peace asking the troops to stop fighting.

    9. Hand-to-hand fighting continued late into the night. Stones and metal clubs with barbed wire were heavily used, due to which, many suffered head injuries.

    10. The clash went on for over three hours.

    11. Fighting stopped well after midnight. Several bodies of the soldiers were fished from the river, while, many injured succumbed by morning, sources said.

    Sources said that multiple Colonel-to-Colonel-level talks from both sides took place at the very same post during the day. Army has now taken charge of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) posts.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/bloody-india-china-faceoff-at-lac-timeline-of-galwan-clash-1689785-2020-06-17

    • Replies: @Passerby60
    , @Showmethereal
  177. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    https://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-called-it-indians-and-pakis-too-faggy-for-war/all/1/

    True, the Indians have beaten the Pakistanis three times out of three (in 1947, 1965 and 1971). But look at what happened the one time they tried fighting a real army: the India-China war of 1962. India decided that its new status as world power required it to grab a few square miles of Himalayan wasteland from China. They worked themselves up into a war frenzy and attacked the Chinese. The Chinese, who don’t do woofing, made no boasts, tried smoothing things over, and when that failed, quietly flattened the Indian army. It was a rout: mustaches and swaggersticks sprinting downhill so fast the snow hadn’t yet melted on their helmets when they hit 120-degree Delhi. After that, the Indians decided they’d stick to picking on someone less than half their own size: the Pakistanis.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  178. @Daniel Chieh

    Of course 1962 was a disaster for India. I will not even go into the reasons for that. But you forgot to mention

    1. Nathu La and Cho La clashes (1967) – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes

    2. 1987 Sino-Indian skirmish – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish

    3. 2017 China–India border standoff – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff

    Just 3 years ago China huffed & puffed and threatened with dire consequences and when India did not blink, tucked its tail and went back. (I wonder- is there is any Unz thread on Doklam issue in 2017?)

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning. Let’s wait and watch for next 3 months if China can take over Galvan valley or not.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  179. China has a history of solving territorial disputes amicably.

    “Since 1949 (till 2005), China has settled seventeen of its twenty-three territorial disputes. Moreover, it has offered substantial compromises in most of these settlements, usually receiving less than 50 percent of the contested land. China’s pattern of compromise in its territorial disputes presents several puzzles. For realists, China has not used its power advantages to bargain hard over contested land, especially with its weaker neighbors. Nor has it become less willing to offer concessions over disputed territory as its power has increased. Instead, China compromised in eight separate disputes as its power grew rapidly in the 1990s.” (https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/016228805775124534)

    Meanwhile India has territorial disputes with China, Pakistan, Myanmar, and Nepal. Her territorial dispute with Bangladesh took 68 years to resolve. It comes to show that India is a very uncompromising negotiator.

    Many times since 1959, China had offered to settle her territorial dispute with India by legitimizing the Line of Actual Control, whereby China will keep Aksai China and India will keep Arunachal Pradesh. This is a very good deal for India because Aksai China is a barren land one-third the size of Arunachal Pradesh; Arunachal Pradesh on the other hand is built-up and has more than a million population. Unfortunately, India had always rejected this deal

    Prior to the 1962 Sino-Indian border conflict, India applied the Forward Policy. While the Forward Policy was initially intended to prevent the Chinese from advancing into empty areas (by occupying them first), “it was now decided to push back the Chinese from posts they already occupied.” Whereas Indian troops were previously ordered to fire only in self-defense, all post commanders were now given discretion to open fire upon Chinese forces if threatened. Eventually this forced China to go on the offensive and she managed to take over all the disputed territories. Despite this achievement, China chose to unilaterally called a cease fire and withdrew to pre-conflict lines. This shows that China is sincere in legitimizing the Line of Actual Control.

    India should have taken this as a gesture of goodwill and accepted the deal.

    India was the country that had annexed the most lands after WWII:
    •  1947 Princely state of Junagadh. After the ruler of Junagadh chose to merge with Pakistan, India invaded and annexed the state.
    • 1947 Jammu and Kashmir.
    • 1948 Hyderabad. India invaded the independent Hyderabad, killing 200000 people in the process, and annexed her.
    • 1961 Goa. India invaded Goa, which was a colony of Portugal, and annexed it.
    • 1975 Kingdom of Sikkim. India invaded Sikkim, put the king under house-arrest, ran a mock referendum and annexed the country. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Sikkimese_monarchy_referendum)

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  180. @china-russia-all-the-way

    That was the timeline given by Indian sources, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    As Dennis Etler wrote:

    The responses of India and China to the border conflict are very telling, and it shows which side is most likely responsible.

    India is using the conflict to whip up nationalist fervor with news reports inveighing against Chinese aggression. This is the standard playbook for a nation in crisis, It is a distraction from India’s intractable problems exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and a failing economy. It is also using the conflict to get US backing for its fascistic Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    China, on the other hand, is downplaying the conflict in its media, and preventing xenophobic sentiments from proliferating on the internet. China wants to resolve the conflict by consultations with India, while India’s Modi says its soldiers will “not die in vain.”

    These differing responses show that India is using the conflict to push its own domestic and foreign agendas while China wants to dampen down and resolve it.

    It should be clear which side has ulterior motives.

  181. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    None of those show India with any competence.

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning.

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  182. DB Cooper says:
    @reiner Tor

    That’s not true. China has friendly relations with most of its neighbors.

  183. @Not Only Wrathful

    How did Vietnam win when it couldn’t get back it’s territory for over 10 years until they signed an official agreement?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  184. DB Cooper says:
    @Passerby60

    China actually made a huge mistake by offering to settle South Tibet because India took that as a weakness and exploit it ever since. This is why after the annexation of Tawang India unilaterally adjusted the so called MacMahon line (which is based on a diplomatic forgery and no Chinese government has ever accepted) and push further north to grab more land. India was too greedy and never took up China’s offer. Had India sign the border agreement India could have legally annexed South Tibet. Today South Tibet is a United Nation recognized disputed territory, making India the only country occupyiny two UN recognized disputed territories. The other being Kashmir.

  185. @Passerby60

    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.

    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom 🙂

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.

    I am sure. But…..

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won’t happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

  186. @AnonFromTN

    USSR was not a country…. And all the examples you used have been horror stories… Exactly why China won’t let their country be split up. Germany unified and has prospered. Again – that’s why China wants unification.

  187. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India can thump its chest all it wants, but the industrial capacity isn’t going to appear in a fit of ardor. I’ve heard too many “boycotts” of Chinese products in my life to ever see it matter, but please, believe that this is the one. You should switch to South Korea and not ask too many questions about where the assembled parts come from.

    And no, I don’t really care except to state the obvious gap in military capability. I’ve probably spent as much time explaining to you as it is warrented.

    Though this last one is rich, and certainly worth a quote:

    What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H. L. Mencken

  188. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I bet it is American govt’s wet dream right now if China n India gets into a land war.

    What caused this recent “Chinese aggression” or “Indian aggression”? Is it because India recently officially annexed the disputed land?

    What is the cause? No way this happened out of the blue. I read a lot about USA vs China, almost zero on India vs China.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  189. d dan says:
    @Pentheus

    “Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind.”

    You mean like this (note how one team guard their marching army diligently):

    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV117411q7Cm/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.0

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  190. @Vishnugupta

    Brahmos started years ago… So are you pretending Russia doesn’t mind India cozying up to 5 Eyes?

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  191. @showmethereal

    Because he could not read the very article linked helpfully for him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    Let’s help him.

    View post on imgur.com

    Besides that, the original Chinese objective was to keep Cambodia independent and that was the fundamental strategic goal which was successful. Cambodia remains one of the most pro-Chinese states in Asia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia%E2%80%93China_relations

    Since 1997, China began developing closer relations with the regime of Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, once a pro-Vietnamese leader and a defector from the Khmer Rouge during Vietnam’s occupation of Cambodia. Although initially backing Hun Sen’s political opponent Prince Norodom Ranariddh and his FUNCINPEC, China was disenchanted with Ranaridh’s efforts to build a closer relationship with Taiwan, which is claimed by China. Facing international isolation after the 1997 coup that brought him to power, Hun Sen cultivated close ties with China, which opposed efforts by Western countries to impose economic sanctions on Cambodia. China’s close ties with Cambodia have also served to gain leverage against Vietnamese influence in the region. Cambodia has severed all links with Taiwan and has strongly supported the reunification of Taiwan with China.

    As I’ve implied before, China is perfectly capable of playing the long game and thus does not need to inflict knockout blows, but can engage in levels of “gray zone” warfare short of total war to gain strategic advantage.

    And thus yes, forcing a lesser-industrialized rival to engage in a long war or engaging its policy such that it has to excessively spend on “gun’ versus butter goods, is something that can be done. This was exactly what was done to Vietnam, as China pursued a normal foreign policy and economic building with the rest of the world, while the low-level war with Vietnam forced it to continually invest in the military. The 1992 concessions ultimately gained were not through any massive victory, but this grinding attrition that forced Vietnam to concede.

    The same await India if she chooses to engage in war, so as long as foreign actors don’t get involved. That, unfortunately, is probably not guaranteed.

  192. @Astuteobservor II

    Very briefly….

    Both India and China used to have very pathetic infra in the border region. Since 2000 China furiously built infra all over the border (to be fair they went on a massive infra spree all over their country and they did the same near LOC).
    That sent major alarm bells in New Delhi and India started building infra on its side of the border. This started around a decade ago. India is still catching up on border infra and will probably take another 4-5 years (it is extremely difficult to build in the 10-15 km altitude of Himalayas. There are several “world record” roads and tunnels were built there.

    This alarmed Chinese side. Although China dwarfs India economically and industrially, In the Himalayan theater, India has geographic/logistical advantages. This is the root cause of current conflict.

    3 years ago another confrontation happened in a tri-junction area. ( read this ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff )

    It is also similar to what we are seeing now. China backed off in 2017. Lets see how it unfolds now.

    India is asking for status quo as of Apr 2020 to be restored. China agreed several times during flag meetings but did not move back on ground.

  193. @d dan

    I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.

    https://time.com/118633/ant-intelligence-google/

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  194. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

  195. songbird says:
    @nebulafox

    The President added, “Now, Goddamnit, they’ve got to know this…Goddamnit, who’s giving them a billion dollars a year? Shit, the Russians aren’t giving them a billion dollars a year, Henry.”

    The Nixon tapes are pretty entertaining. Someday, I’d like to hear the one where he calls Indira “an old witch.”
    It is a crying shame that they pulled the tape machine from the Oval Office. (and too bad there are no known tapes of Indira or Mao talking – though I think Mao was bugged, so maybe)

    In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward. Not in its decline.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  196. @A123

    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)

    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    The EU is seriously upping the ante in its drive to tackle unfair competition from China, the U.S. and other foreign players in the single market.

    Nations have no friends, only interests.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    , @A123
  197. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    These kind of accusation only reflects the West and the Indians understanding of human nature given their historical experience but that doesn’t make it universally true. Football hooligism is a thing for the British, that doesn’t make it true for Indians (or even Americans). For your information so called ethnic oppression does not even existed in China. It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans. And there are over fifties recognized ethnic minorities group in China. Calling people names is probably the cheapest way to denigrate a people and don’t you think before China went full blown on the concentration camps they would at least give the Uyghurs some ethnic slurs?

    Indians of course is a different animal. Ethnic oppression in India is not only a thing, the Indians institutionalized it to a system called the Caste and blessed it with a religion. This is one of the reasons why Indians are an inferior people with an inferior culture.

    • Disagree: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  198. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Status quo mean India should return to where they were at August 15, 1947. That means India should vacate Ladkda and South Tibet. India has no business in those area.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  199. ivan says:
    @A123

    Well said. Neither side can deal a crushing blow onto the other. There are simply too many people. I have to add as an Indian that we know all about China’s “nibble and negotiate” trickery. For too long under Modi we have given in to everything the Chinese asked in the name of “good relations”: On Tibet, on Taiwan, on Hong Kong catering to their whims, and even pre-emptively kowtowing by firing a news anchor who merely referred to XI JinPing as “Eleven” Jinping. That moron Modi has a lot to answer for, but even for him all that has changed overnight. And incidentally Karlin is once again proving to be an unreliable guide with his “statistics” : China does not overwhelm India at all in the Himalayan region. The Himalayas are within walking range of the pilgrims, the Indians can put up 500,000 men strung along the border without batting an eyelid. And for the benefit of some fellows who don’t know geography the Tibetan Plateau is the watershed of India too. Two can play the game of “vital national interests” or even “lebensraum” when it comes to Tibet.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29274792

  200. @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    From 1947 to mid 1990’s China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation – Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had “European” Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and “Asian” Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India’s problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation 🙂 Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered “profit” as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting “loyal” people. But it didn’t last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle “licence raj” and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences 🙂

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ 🙂 But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

  201. Daemon says:
    @A123

    Looks like being a Jew doesnt offset the IQ loss from being a boomercon.

    You do realize manufacturing in the USA using American “labor”, American (((Regulations))) and American (((Taxes))) would easily push the finished product to somewhere north of $3000 right?

    You would need to tarrif the chinese not just 30%, but 300% to get any manufacturer to budge. At which point, they’d simply flip you the bird and leave.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  202. @DB Cooper

    China has no business in Tibet.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  203. Rahan says:

    @Tor597

    Oh, even without any shit kicking happening to India, and without any refugees, the US and UK have already signed up waves of Indians to be imported, it’s already a done deal, that’s part of the alliance thing.

    And the tragedy, or farce, of the situation is, that the 10 years from now, once the last competent whites retire and only hysterics, drug addicts, thugs, and mulattoes are left in charge of the US, the imported Indians really WILL be the only more or less competent demographic that holds everything together, albeit at a 2nd world level.

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    Unless right now this very minute new structures are created and enforced, which 10 years from now will start producing the first wave of competent 20 and 30 year old heritage Americans. Unless this happens everything will hang on the goodwill and basic abilities of Indians and Koreans etc.

    • Replies: @Tor597
    , @anonymous coward
  204. d dan says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    “I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.”

    So, do you think ants might be more intelligent than the trolls here, like some who thinks US can impose tariffs to achieve manufacturing greatness, or others who thinks India can win a war against China through its democracy?

    China does not want troubles nor even attention, just quietness in the border, and yet the anti-China forces never rest. Sad: 树欲静而风不息

  205. lin says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas

    The area of recent conflict is about 5100 m ASL and I had been to Eastern china (18 yrs ago, inside a car on the hi-way)at 4300 m ASL(GSP confirmed) and I don’t think it’ll take at least 15 days for Chinese grunts to adapt.
    **High altitude airfields in Tibet means the planes can’t take off with heavy loads but air-defense is quite sufficient.
    **Bear in mind, the indian army has the following problems:
    1)Low weapons spendings as % of budget, high manpower spendings. Indian army at 1.4 millions is the biggest army in the world and that of china at less than 1 million is the 3rd.
    2)Probably low weapon stockpiles.
    **The Chinese army has recruiting problem;Young Chinese school leavers want to go to college. Chinese army recruiters now focus on college grads. Drones and robots are being emphasized.
    **According to Swedish SIPRI, India and china respectively spend 2.5% and 1.9% of GDP on their military. The Indians will make a new version of Russian AK-47 I read.
    **Tibet is thinly propulated but some indian states just south of Himalays are very heavily populated. I checked that Bihar and Uttar Pradesh have a combined population of 369 millions(> than US total) in 2020. The most developed parts of china is 1000s of km from indian border.
    **I’ve no data on the new china Rocket Force(a separate branch of the Chinese military)but certainly Chinese industry can mass produce short range guided missiles which put all the northern indian military installations within range.
    ………
    Certainly it will be nightmare to Chinese leaders if 100s of 1000s of indian soldiers march towards the border

  206. @last straw

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @A123
  207. It is really weird how the Chinese anons focused on the points brought up by trollish and opposing anons so readily.

    You guys need to up your game.

    Why the focus on ants? Just because some retarded anon brought it up?

    Lesson 1, don’t argue against retarded made up on the spot points. Learn to spot those retarded points. Don’t get led by the nose because of those retarded made up points.

    Lesson 2, don’t always defend. In English, the defending side always insinuates having done something wrong, hence why you are defending yourself. Learn to attack.

    Lesson 3, if you know some anons are known trolls, don’t feed them. Calling them out is enough.

    That is all I have for now. Hope this helps you guys a bit.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Daniel Chieh
  208. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    That makes no sense. As the Chinese side has way more infrastructure. That goes against your narrative that China started this.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  209. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    “China has no business in Tibet.”

    Tibetans in China definitely don’t agree. I am sure you think I am lying and that is because you have been reading msm nonsense for years and this is why people are flocking to unz.com

    But ocasionally there are upright academics reported what they found without any ideological predisposition. Listen to this podcast:


    China is really a very different culture compare to the West and India and so a lot of assumptions and things taken for granted in the West or India does not applied to China and this includes the altitudes towards ethnic minorities.

  210. utu says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    “You guys need to up your game.” – You can’t help them. They are rigid. Years of totalitarian conditioning. Butt-hurt chauvinism. They are no match for ’82-IQ H1B Indian’.

    I looked at some papers from India and was nicely surprised and relieved by their common sense and maturity how they wrote about the incident.

  211. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Economis policies of course matters, but so is human capital. Look at the IMO result of North Korea. A country of 25 million totally beat a billion Indians by a mile . Its not even in the same league.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

  212. @Astuteobservor II

    Whether some people are trolls or not, I believe, is quite beside the point. Trolls can be useful as springboard to provide information, which I think is the main purpose of Unz. Its not really like the “pointmaking” here has any significant value.

    Insofar as ants go, I’ve always liked them(they’re the only other creature that practice agriculture, for one). Swarm intelligence is also a potential vector for general AI to manifest, so in general I find them fascinating.

    At the end of the day, arguing on the Internet is mostly an indulgence:

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  213. nebulafox says:
    @songbird

    There’s no question that Nixon’s personal dislike of Gandhi-which stemmed from a variety of factors, one being her hypocrisy on Vietnam-colored his perceptions of that part of the world, but as the tapes show, Anderson was inaccurate in describing that as the main motivator of policy. Nixon and Kissinger distorted a regional conflict into a Cold War theater, contra their memoirs, but they were hardly the first or last Cold War-era leaders to make that mistake, and their acted logically and rationally in terms of policy within the confines of that mistake.

    This is the case for a lot of Nixon-related stuff: it’s certainly true that he didn’t like black people or hippies, but to ascribe him setting up an entire federal department because of that is just stupid. It moreover overlooks the fact that Ehrlichman dedicated more than half the allocated money to treatment and rehab. The War on Drugs only really took on its modern recognizable form in the 1980s, under Reagan, and by that point, crack cocaine had changed the situation beyond recognition.

    >In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward.

    “Life lessons from Richard Nixon” is a strange moniker, but here’s an interesting lesson: Nixon kept a small, hidden room in the EOB where he could go to think without any interruptions. No phone calls, no meetings, etc. There he’d take out his pen and yellow pads, and scribble down whatever ideas came to him on major strategic goals on policy or political tactics. The papers often reveal Nixon at his best, just as the tapes often reveal him at his worst, for a couple of reasons: he wasn’t playing an artificial “role” when he was alone, and he was less misanthropic when not forced to interact with people.

    It’s paradoxical, but I can relate to that. If you are introverted, this time is not just great for recharging, but planning things out without any overstimulation or surprises. Thinking things through on your own without that pressure will help you respond authentically/honestly when the time comes to respond to others. I think in an age of phones and computers and 24/7 information bombardment, it’s all the more important to take some uninterrupted time to think and reflect without artificial distractions.

    • Agree: songbird
  214. lin says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000

    Nominal GDP in US$ sure isn’t too accurate but PPP GDP is even more so (but there’re exception, Russia is a very good example. I was told by a friend who had been to St Petersberg that the ticket to a Swan Lake ballet performance at Mariinsky theatre could be as low as US$30-40, only a fraction of comparable performance elsewhere) because PPP GDP ignores consumption pattern. I definitely would not compare the consumer experience of an average hair cut in new Delhi to that of the average haircut in US.
    …………….
    The poorer the country, the bigger % of income spent on food; and but it so happened that rich countries usually have lower grain production cost mostly due to better tech and mechanisation(developing Brazil and developed Japan are the exceptions). Chinese food grain production/capita in 1978 was over 300 kg while that of india in 2015 was 200 kg.
    The gap between Chinese and indian living standard in 2020 definitely exceeds 15000 to 5700.
    Nominal GDP sure isn’t perfect but it’s better than PPP GDP
    Air-conditioning penetration 2016 by country(India is in a hotter climate zone than both US and china) https://www.statista.com/statistics/911064/worldwide-air-conditioning-penetration-rate-country/

  215. Tor597 says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Blah blah blah.

    India has an IQ of 82. There is smart fraction, but not enough smarts to overcome the majority of low iq Indians.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  216. @Daniel Chieh

    No, at this point, internet arguments are what is shaping the narrative. It is why Reddit got the kiss of death from the 3 letter agencies. It is why 4chan got taken over.

    As a Chinese, you really don’t want to make it China vs the world.

    Time to learn propaganda.

    Like the comment H1b mentioned about freeing Tibet. If we go back that far, India would not exist, need to be a colony again, be slaves again, USA would not exist either. Yet, Cooper concedes the point so easily.

    I can never understand that.

  217. Tor597 says:
    @Rahan

    lol

    Now we see the true nature of the Indian diaspora. You really think a bunch of Indians can run America and rule it?

    How crazy and delusional are you?

    No matter how bad Minnesota gets, it will still be infinitely better than India.

  218. @showmethereal

    Brahmos 2 is effectively a brand new missile based on Zircon.

    Maybe Indians aren’t as diplomatically incompetent as some people think we are and have not cozied up with the Anglos to the extent you think we have.

    You seriously think Russia will be handing over state of the art tech to a country deemed compromised for a few billion dollars ?

    Russia has not leased/sold such tech to the Chinese.Dont tell me the PRC would not like to have an Akula2 to study and train its crew on or some Zircon missile derivatives of it’s own given the
    US presence in the S China sea.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  219. @Daniel Chieh

    Ants are the only insects that pass the mirror test. It is not that common even in the higher animals.

    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
  220. @AnonFromTN

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system.

    Explains how 1950s US was such a Third World shithole.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  221. @DB Cooper

    It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans.

    Sounds highly unlikely.

    • Replies: @lin
    , @DB Cooper
  222. Google says:

    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.

    India doesn’t have air superiority. Most of their jet fighters are dominated by su-30 according to wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

    According to this article, even China’s J-10 can win against su-35, and that’s the newer version of su-30 > https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/china-s-j-10c-reportedly-crushed-the-russian-su-35-in-combat-exercises-how-the-firebird-came-out-on-top

    If China uses J-20, 5th gen stealth fighter, it will be slaughter for Indian air force. And when China has air superiority, even if India has billions of highly trained, superior ground forces, they’ll just be target practice for Chinese planes.

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn’t use anti-ship missiles.

    Indian delusion is out of touch with reality.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @showmethereal
  223. Google says:

    Who started the conflict?

    Let’s take a look at chains of events.

    US sent 3 carrier strike group to South China Sea.
    India had military agreement with Australia.
    There was mini covid outbreak in Beijing.

    India saw China weakened, though it would be opportunity to attack China, plus India recieved encouragement by US lately.

    Then look at the responses;
    Chinese side told India to back off; https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1191837.shtml

    Menwhile India;
    India told their soldiers to use guns basically breaking the treaty they signed; https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/indian-army-given-emergency-powers-lac-chinese-pla-ladakh-faceoff-galwan-626828
    India stocked up war reserves; https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/armed-forces-to-stock-up-war-reserves/articleshow/76415783.cms
    Indian navy sailed to strait of malacca; https://old.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/hahhia/indian_army_releases_full_statement_on_ladakh/

    So why would India navy sailed to malacca when the dispute in China-India border? That’s because India will use the death of their soldier as excuse to attack China.

    India doesn’t want peace, they want war, as instructed by the empire. India will only back down when they realize they can’t win against China, but many Indians are chest thumping gamma males including Modi himself, so they have this delusion they can win against China.

    Oh, by the way, it’s not 20 Indian deaths and 43 Chinese deaths, it’s 20 Indian deaths and 43 Chinese casulties. The number for Indian casulties actually 130+, admitted by Indian general; https://sputniknews.com/asia/202006161079632991-at-least-20-indian-soldiers-killed-in-ladakh-skirmish-with-china-source-says/

    So why Indians have 3x more casulties? Chinese media claimed Indian army crossed to Chinese side and attacked. That makes sense because Chinese army had “home” advantage.

    China gave India chance to save face and de-escalate by not publishing their number.

  224. A123 says:
    @last straw

    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    Yes.

    If you read the proposed EU actions, they will have little to no impact on real U.S. Firms.

    If the EU wants to hammer SJW Globalist multinationals that evade U.S. Taxes…. Any American objection will only be pro forma, at most. Though one imagines the EU will give in to corrupt multinationals before serious penalties are applied.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @last straw
  225. @Daniel Chieh

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator…

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of…”tactical”, be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Disagree: showmethereal
  226. Meena says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Fudging the data is a big business in India at very level. This government is worse .
    1 Shanties and slums of India ( they at least have a permanent home compared to

    2 Scattered homeless in cities numbering millions in Calcutta Delhi Bombay Chennai ?
    3 Toilet in the slums are about 1 for every 100 persons

    4 Toilets in villages number about 1 toilet per 10 people
    5 People still defecate openly in villages and in Cities !

    6 The worst kind of hygienic practices one can see is around the temple of Calcutta Bihar and Northern States .

    7Poverty reduction is joke . More people have joined the poverty after 1990 than before as a percentage
    More people have seen poverty since 2000

    8 During Pandemic , millions of migrants have gone hungry ,thousands have died from lack of basic amenities including food

    9 Government jobs have evaporated and private jobs have become scare

    10 Indian Dalit, untouchable and Tribal constitue majority Poverty level among them run in 90 % or more .

    11 Media now fully under Modi’s control fudge the numbers on any thing that the Government wants it to do.
    11 India’s child and women mortality are worse than neighboring Sri Lanka Bangladesh and Pakistan
    12 Violence against women are rampant in northern states where the cow belt sits.
    13 Indian basic education lags behind Bangladesh and Sri Lanka .

  227. A123 says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    ObliviousObserver the Troll,

    The topic of the thread is India-China.

    Limiting the discussion to issues about China that will be exacerbated if China is seen as aggressive is called staying on-topic. When asked about the specific point I tried to provide the shortest possible clarification that will not drag the conversation off-topic.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    No. That is Troll Chieh’s job. And, apparently yours.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.

    Occasionally one has to respond to TROLLS to warn other readers about the trolling.

    Fortunately everyone now knows that you and Troll Chieh are TROLLS. Your allegiance to Iranian pay masters was fairly obvious as soon as you opened your mouth.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  228. @A123

    Iranian pay masters

    The great puppeteer, Teheran.

    • LOL: Ano4
  229. @Daemon

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

  230. @Not Only Wrathful

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    China accomplished everything she set out to do. And increased territorial gains.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    You have a fascinating little headspace you occupy. It’ll be a pity to disturb it, so instead, please enjoy the below image of “accurate self-reflection.”

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  231. @Rahan

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    The ‘three worlds’ are not tiers of awesomeness. ‘1st world’ meant capitalist countries lead by the USA, ‘2nd world’ meant socialist countries lead by the USSR, and ‘3rd world’ meant whatever kind of system China was at the time.

    The ‘three worlds’ are so named because they corresponded to the three sides in the conflict known as the ‘Cold War’.

    (And yes, China and USSR used to be enemies and even fought wars, a fact that has been since thoroughly memoryholed.)

  232. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Yes, previous Indian leaders didn’t accept India for how she was. Their inability to admit their shame at the widespread poverty precluded them. Modi has no such problems and, unsurprisingly, poverty is melting away.

  233. @Astuteobservor II

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers its provinces.

    As a matter of fact, I am not. China has a record of resolving its land disputes with neighbors via negotiations. A multi-thousand-miles border with Russia is a good example: all disputes resolved, and both sides benefit from facilitated cross-border travel and trade immensely. I hear that everything in stores on both sides of the border is in two languages, Russian and Mandarin.

    But it takes two to tango, so this option does not exist with unreasonable neighbors. Basically, the development of this conflict would show whether India is a reasonable neighbor. If it is not, even the multitude of Hindu Gods won’t save it.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Troll: AaronB
  234. A123 says:
    @Google

    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.

    There is a huge difference between defending and winning. So, let us concentrate on the Indian defense scenario.
    ____

    Air superiority — Fighters do not take land, they break things. In an infantry based slugging match how much do fighters help?

    Fighting in Northern India resembles Afghanistan. USSR had air superiority in Afghanistan. The U.S. had air superiority in Afghanistan. That helped the U.S. and USSR, but neither “won”.

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn’t use anti-ship missiles.

    Land based ASM is a huge problem for ships that have a limited engagement range. U.S. style supercarriers can provide air cover while staying out of land based ASM range. Number of operational Chinese supercarriers = 0. China has limits on its ability to operate near India’s coast.

    India would also attempt to sneak land based ASM into islands within the Straits. Damaging a tanker’s engines or steering in the Straits would lead to collisions or groundings. The Indians have the much easier objective, interfering with tanker traffic.
    _____

    It is hard to see on pure military terms how China scores a “win”. The inevitable result would be a massive quagmire. Worse yet, unprovoked Chinese aggression would destroy China’s relations with other nations.

    There simply is no rational upside to a Chinese invasion of India.

    Of course, “Wars are often started by mistake.” Chinese incursions onto Indian territory seem reckless. The fact that both sides have nukes should give them a chance to de-escalate once China evacuates Indian territory. China is already waving the olive branch towards this outcome.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Google
  235. Meena says:
    @Jatt Arya

    “At least 69fake videos against Muslims and at least 28attacks listedMedia Scanner, a fact-checkingplatform, compiled a list of at least 69fake videos against Muslims and listed at least 28attacks prompted by online abuse. Joyojeet Pal, Associate Professor atthe University of Michigan, and three others found “arise in the number of debunked misinformation, especially following the thirdweek of March.”Pal’s study confirmed the progression of events that followed thegovernment’s religious profiling. “A key 30-day period”, from March 14-April12, “was dominated by discussions of a possible lockdown and about infections”;the discourse gradually “changed to Muslims and religion moresignificantly”, said the study.cited by scroll.in, on Apr 21, 2020.For more : https://scroll.in/article/959806/covid-19-how-fake-news-and-modi-government-messaging-fuelled-indias-latest-spiral-of-islamophobia  https://countercurrents.org/2020/05/fake-news-targeting-muslims-exposed-by-police-but-still-aired-and-that-even-by-mainstream-media

    Indian media under Modi has become an an accomplice in Modi’s calculated atrocity against Muslim .

    No wonder it finds common cause with Likkud of Israel and AIPAC of USA .

    Didn’t Hindustan Times in 2017 put the blames on the burning of the 2002 train squarely on intentional or accidental setting off fire inside the train by the Ram devout pilgrims ? Does that not make the entire Gujrat riot not an act of revenge but an act of premeditated intentional starting ,causing riot supporting riot and adding to riot by the Modi Gov of Gujrata?

    How many times BJP RSS leaders have expressed the desires to rape the Muslim women? As many times the elections have been held since 1987.

    • Agree: Ano4
  236. lin says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Actually that’s true that Chinese don’t have ethnic slurs for national minorities, at least I’m not aware of or if those exist, usually mild because those minorities are not highly visible.
    Two interesting slang words for foreigners, slurs or not..
    **老毛子 or 毛子 for Russians. It means hairy man. Centuries ago Russians kept long beard.
    **高丽棒子 for koreans. It means ‘Korean stick’. It’s a superstitious synonym for ginseng used by ginseng collectors. Similar to calling germans ‘kraut’.
    …………
    BTW, black slaves existed in ancient china but the number was very small and they had all merged with the Chinese gene pool. So far I only met one Chinese with natural afro peppercorn hair.
    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu–Nu means slave and Kunlun is the mountain range through which those slaves were trafficked. (Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention sky colors.) The story had been made into a TV series.
    Another half black notable I read was a general.

    • Replies: @lin
    , @Daniel Chieh
    , @Menes
  237. @Daniel Chieh

    You’re obviously wrong, but, as I said, if you want to claim a victory, then let me wish you hundreds more similar victories…

    As for the US, which I am not from, I agree absolutely that the ruling class, and those directly supporting them, are also poor at self-reflection.

    Their lack of such is more subtle than the Chinese one; which consists of simply “hurr durr I am the best and question me at your peril.” It also requires much more strength.

    The contemporary US way is thus the opposite of the Chinese way, in that it is a lack of self-reflection which delights in pretending otherwise. It is “I am so bad, I am so terrible, my history is awful, I must be highly self-reflective (see how self-sacrificing I can be, and therefore how strong!)” It is late adolescent rather than infantile.

    Regardless, for both, the reward is blind smugness, even as they are possibly necessary steps along the same path to something more complete.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AaronB
  238. lin says:
    @lin

    Sorry for the typo: It should be Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention skin colors

  239. LOLknee says:
    @Tor597

    Richard Lynn’s numbers are fraudulent. David Becker’s are no better. You can keep spouting these numbers if they make you feel better, but a lie is a lie.

    Where’s the innovation coming out of supposedly “high-IQ” Poland and Hungary? Where are the Slavic tigers?

    • Replies: @Tor597
  240. @Not Only Wrathful

    People like you encourage me to abandon all effortposting to simply indulge into full trolling. Thank you for helping me realize the Internet’s true purpose.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  241. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    While what you wrote makes sense and appears to be factually correct, it does not explain the facts on the ground. You imply that Indian system had serious flaws from 1947 on, but in 1990, more than 40 years after independence, India was ahead of China. Yet now it’s way behind.

    You also admit that in the last 30 years China elevated more people out of poverty than India. There must be a reason for that.

    Speaking of democracy, universal suffrage when the majority is illiterate and hungry is not democracy, it’s a travesty: form without substance. It’s perfect for corruption, and nothing else.

    I don’t have statistically valid sampling, but based on qualities of Indians and Chinese I interacted with I am sure that IQ has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that IQ test was invented to separate normal people from retards, and that’s the only thing it is good for. I had two Hindu Indian post-docs (and one Indian Muslim, but I wouldn’t count him in). One was dumb, the other moderately intelligent. I collaborated with one Indian post-doc when I was a post-doc, and both she and her husband were fairly smart. I taught two Indian grad students, was on the thesis committee of one of them. Both were intelligent (BTW, one eventually married a Chinese guy). I had four Chinese post-docs, two intelligent, one limited, and one dumb. I also had a very smart Chinese grad student. So, on average (even though averages are uninformative, like an average fever level in a hospital), I see no difference. Cannot blame culture, either – the only common thing in India is Hindu religion, there are many nations, languages, even alphabets in India. So, there must be something in the organization of Indian and Chinese state that explains this difference. And that something gives China an advantage.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  242. A123 says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Achieving 100% replacement is achievable but not instantaneous.

    Using increasing tariffs to force realignment over time will re-build capabilities that predators (China) and traitors (SJW multinationals) have more or less wiped out.

    The ‘cold turkey’ zero trade case is not good for the U.S. but much worse for China. If Xi wants that outcome, he can brutally damage his own country.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AaronB
  243. LOLknee says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they’re both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They’re histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China’s political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It’s a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn’t get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

  244. @Anatoly Karlin

    I am not saying that religion is always bad, but sincere fervent religiosity is a huge impediment. Just compare Medieval Europe to the twentieth century. Or look at the Islamic world: the least religious (say, Turkey) are doing OK, whereas rabidly religious become Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity is peculiar. Americans do everything Christian dogma abhors and considers sinful six days a week, and then go to church on Sunday and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress, its pure form without substance.

    • Replies: @Meena
  245. Meena says:
    @LOLknee

    Juxtapose the fact that India’s top 10% now hold as much wealth as the bottom 70%, with the fact that India’s private companies are almost exclusively upper caste-owned, with just two high caste groups, a small minority of the population, constituting 90% of corporate boards. The richest 1% has four times the wealth of the bottom 70%, in large part via a takeover and monetization of the land, waters, forests and resources that were the lifeblood of those at the bottom end of the caste spectrum. Whichever the party in power, this upward redistribution of wealth has remained uninterrupted. https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/india-s-pandemic-response-is-a-caste-atrocity-2236094?pfrom=home-opinion

  246. AaronB says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Good insights.

    Rare on Unz.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
  247. Daemon says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been but the percentage of the population engaged in manufacturing as paid employment has never been lower. Makes sense that in order to make in america, you need to get rid of americans. Also, unless you have full front-to-back control of the supply chain like China does, you will still face increased operating costs in the form of externalities like tariffs, supply chain inefficiencies not to mention expensive overhead like OSHA, EPA etc etc. Automation will give you an edge, but labor costs are only one side of the equation.

    If you think that all it takes is for Trump to wave his hand to decouple the two countries and take the clock back to 1970 and everyone will ‘get their jerbs back’, think again. That ship has unfortunately sailed.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  248. @Daniel Chieh

    Finally. No more serious replies to trolls. Good for you. Don’t feed the trolls.

    • Troll: AaronB
  249. Meena says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity i…. and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress…”.

    What Taliban does or ISIS does ,is done by the Government of USA ,France UK and are being done for decades . Christian religion doesn’t have to do that .Its taken care of . Sometimes in dire needs ,these religious organizations become very vocal like agents Iran , during Iraq war of 2003 ,against Venejuala’s Chavez and throughout the cold war when Soviet were called “Godless or Satan” by the political parties and by the religious group .

    Anti Christ was Saddam , was Arafat was Ahmednezad was Soviet leaders and lately is Putin . Religion pervades and permeates American narrative . From Regan to Boykin to Falwell or Robinson – all offer various shades of terror and supporting narrative .

  250. @LOLknee

    I disagree with the ancient civilization part strongly. A country since 1947 is not ancient.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  251. AaronB says:
    @A123

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    If that’s no longer the case for America, then obviously America will no longer practice free trade. It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It’s obviously already speeding up.

    For myself, I’m always suspicious of anything extreme – all extreme positions are utopian ideology and not consistent with reality. Unrestricted free trade is as obviously ideological and inconsistent with reality as a completely closed and planned economy.

    The most successful policy always ends up being a messy half way house between extremes, adjusting and adapting to changing conditions without ideological blinders. That doesn’t mean extreme policies are not occasionally called for – just that if one starts believing in them as ideologies (as always applicable), one is no longer adapting to real conditions.

  252. LOLknee says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    India as a country has existed since 1947. India as a civilization has existed since at least 1500 BC. Since 3300 BC if you consider the Indus Valley civilization.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  253. Meena says:
    @LOLknee

    Hate violence and atrocities at individual level and systemic discrimination racism segregation ( in school temples Government offices ) are rampant in India . Mots of the victims are the u=lower caste or untouchables and Dalits .
    [1] GOI. (2011). Census of India. New Delhi: Office of the Registrar General and Census Commissioner

    [2] NDMJ(NCHDR). (2017). Exclusion in Schools: A Study on Practice of Discrimination and Violence. New Delhi: NCDHR

    [3] NDTV. (2017, March 17). No Mid-Day Meals In Jharkhand Villages, Children Eat Rats, Rabbits. Retrieved December 15, 2019, from NDTV: https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/the-buck-stops-here/no-mid-day-meals-in-jharkhand-villages-children-eat-rats-rabbits-452074

    [4] Centre for Human Rights and Social Justice. (2010). Voices of Children of Manual Scavengers. Gujarat: Navsarjan Trust

    [5] HRW. (2014). They Say We’re Dirty: Denying an Education to India’s Marginalized. USA: Human Rights Watch

    [6] Thorat, S., & Lee, J. (2006). Dalits and the Right to Food –Discrimination and Exclusion in Food related Government Programms. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies

    [7] Mander, H. (2005). Promises to Keep: ICDS at Crossroads. New Delhi: Centre for Equity Studies

    [8] UNICEF. (2014). Global Initiative on Out-of-School Children : South Asia Regional Study. Kathmandu, Nepal: UNICEF

    [9] Srivastava, R. S. (2005). Bonded Labour in India: Its Incidence and Pattern. Geneva: ILO

    [10]UN Women. (2018). Turning Promises into Actions: Gender Equality in the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. UN Women

    [11] IIPS. (2007). National Family Health Survey 2005-06. Mumbai: International Institute of Population Sciences

    [12] Acharya, S. S. (2010). Access to Health Care and Patterns of Discrimination: A Study of Dalit Children in Selected Villages of Gujarat and Rajasthan. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies & UNICEF

    [13] Amnesty International (2019). Key Findings. Retrieved January 10, 2020, from Halt the Hate: http://haltthehate.amnesty.org.in/

    [14] NCRB. (2017). Crime in India 2016. New Delhi: Ministry of Home Affairs

    [15] GOI. (2015). Socio Economic and Caste Census 2011. New Delhi: Ministry of Rural Development

    [16] The Wire Staff. (2018, September 18). Since 2017, One Manual Scavenger Has Died on the Job Every Five Days. Retrieved January 10th, 2020, from thewire.in: https://thewire.in/labour/since-2017-one-manual-scavenger-has-died-on-the-job-every-five-days

    Recently the police ’s communal racial nature has come to the common knowledge

    with the introduction of the internet and you Tube

    Here is one-

    “New Delhi: In Madhya Pradesh’s Betul, an incident which is striking in its example of Islamophobia and police highhandedness has come to light. 
    On March 23, a lawyer Deepak Bundele was beaten up brutally by the state police while he was on his way to a government hospital for treatment. A month later, he is under pressure from the police to withdraw his complaint. Police officials, in their defence, told Bundele that he was beaten up because they had wrongly identified him as a Muslim man.
    Speaking to The Wire, Bundele said that on March 23, between 5.30 and 6 pm, he was on his way to the hospital when he was stopped by the police. “The nationwide lockdown hadn’t come into place then but Section 144 had been imposed in Betul. I have been an acute diabetic and blood pressure patient for the last 15 years. Since I was not feeling well, I decided to visit the hospital and get some medicines. But I was stopped by the police midway.”
    Bundele, who sports a beard, said that he explained to police personnel that he had to get his medicines but one of them slapped him without trying to listen to what he was saying.  “I told them that they should act within constitutional limits, and that I was ready to be detained under Section 188 of the Indian Penal Code if the police thought so. On hearing this, the police personnel lost their temper, and started abusing me and the Indian constitution. Within no time, many police officials came and started beating me up with sticks,” Bundele said. 
    Only after he said he was a lawyer and would take them to task did they stop beating him, he said. “But by that time my ear had started bleeding profusely,” Bundele alleged.  https://thewire.in/communalism/madhya-pradesh-lawyer-police-betul

    “We are truly embarrassed because of the incident. If you want I can bring those officials and make them apologise in person to you,” the officials are heard saying in the recording published by The Wire. All those people are ashamed that they did something like this to a Hindu brother without knowing his identity… We do not have any enmity against you. Whenever there is a Hindu-Muslim riot, police always supportsthe Hindus; even Muslims know this. But whatever happened with you was because of ignorance,” the officials continued.

Bundele then asks if he was beaten because the officers thought he was a Muslim.

”Yes, exactly. You had a long beard. The man [who assaulted you] is a staunch Hindu… In Hindu-Muslim riots whenever a Muslim is arrested, he beats them up brutally, always,” the officials answered.

Bundele has refused to withdraw his complaint. https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/5/20/indian-police-beat-man-thinking-he-was-muslim

  254. @LOLknee

    Sorry, there was never any Indian civilization. All were empires formed by outside invaders. The earliest I am aware of of that type is the one formed by the mongols. If you want to count that. The last being the British Raj.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  255. @Not Only Wrathful

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator…

    That’s the equivalent of saying Vietnam is still ruled by a Chinese imposed regime…

    A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

    • Replies: @Menes
  256. @LOLknee

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous.

    First, a disclaimer: I don’t speak Mandarin or any other form of Chinese, I only know a few words. So, my info is not exactly first-hand. To the best of my knowledge, China is quite heterogenous. They use the same writing (Japanese use the same hieroglyphs, so I am told that Chinese understand written Japanese, but the language is different), but from what I know the language variants Chinese call dialects are as different as European languages. I once interviewed a prospective Chinese post-doc, who was from the South near Shanghai, and I told my current at the time Chinese post-doc that the guy makes good impression scientifically, but has a horrible accent in English. She told me that his accent in Mandarin is just as horrible (she was from Xinjian and spoke Mandarin). I hired him, and was right: he was smart and productive, now he is an Assistant Professor in one of the US universities. His English improved a lot. Cannot evaluate his Mandarin. The cuisine of Northern China differs from Sichuan cuisine a lot more than Russian from Ukrainian (I visited China twice, so I am aware that what is called Chinese cuisine in the US is the cuisine of Chinese Moslems, not the Han cuisine, which is a lot better, at least its Northern variety).

    But you are right about history: China existed as a unified state with few interruptions for 2,000+ years, whereas what we call India today was created by British Raj. Chinese consider breakup of the country a catastrophe, whereas quite a few Indians consider unified country a catastrophe. Genetic analysis shows that China functions as a huge gene pool, whereas India functions as many small gene pools. I know that when an Indian post-doc I worked with ~30 years ago refused to marry someone her parents found in India, and married an Indian guy she met in the States, her parents boycotted her, as he was from wrong tribe or caste. They only accepted the reality when she had a child. To me both of them looked the same, usual Indians, but they apparently thought differently.

    So, yes, psychologically Chinese see themselves as one nation, whereas Indians see themselves as a collection of many distinct tribes and different castes. I saw with my own eyes that Tamils look down on Bengalis with more disdain than Russians look at Chukchi. This promotes tribal nepotism and likely impedes the development more than anything else.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  257. @Daemon

    Fewer Americans do more manufacturing than they used to.

    That’s hardly an indictment of the current quality of American labour or the regulatory system.

    Both could be much, much more productive, but we don’t need to pretend that everything is awful simply because we wish for things to be better.

  258. @Passerby60

    Take anything on indian news media with a grain of salt, everything on their news is a carbon copy of what fox or trump or cnn put on blast ,they dont know much about china so they have to depend on the american news,the indian news media coverage of corona virus is identical to americans nothing is original.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  259. LOLknee says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Are you a troll, or just plain stupid?

    India has been recognized as a coherent civilization for thousands of years. The limits of “Bharatavarsha” have been delineated for at least as long as the Ramayana, which dates back to at least the mid 1st century B.C., though the story itself probably existed long before that. (And before anyone says otherwise, no I am not saying that the events of the Indian epics actually happened. But certainly, like the Greek epics, at least elements of the stories are influenced by actual historical events, and the geography is accurate.) The Persians recognized the land beyond the Indus River as “Hind.” The Chinese recognized the civilization beyond the Himalayas by many names. The Indus Valley civilization was one of the world’s first three civilizations, along with Mesopotamia and Egypt, and expanded over a larger territory than the other two.

    • Thanks: 82-IQ H1B Indian
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  260. @Not Only Wrathful

    “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

    Party Secretary Timothy D. Cook.

    Article by the Mouth piece of the CCP.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  261. Tor597 says:
    @LOLknee

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    , @LOLknee
    , @LOLknee
  262. songbird says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India – such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren’t as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    • Replies: @Meena
    , @Meena
    , @Meena
  263. LOLknee says:
    @Tor597

    Bro, it’s harder to find something Richard Lynn hasn’t lied about than what he *has* lied about.

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    There’s also zero evidence that castes have different IQs that are genetically determined. Brahmins and “upper castes” are more advanced because they tend to have histories of literacy whereas other castes don’t.

  264. LOLknee says:
    @Tor597

    Are you not aware of all the fudging /fabrication of data Richard Lynn has done over the years?

    A handful of examples:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    There’s also zero evidence that caste groups in India have genetically determined different IQs. Brahmins and “upper castes” (which are hardly homogeneous groups if you look at the history) are more advanced because they tended to have a history of literacy that other groups lacked.

  265. @Blinky Bill

    Nice, also:

    American women are owned by men exactly like in the Handmaid’s Tale.

    Gay Americans live in continual fear because of homophobic evangelical mobs that hate them and frequently burn them.

    Black Americans are systematically barred from all jobs and opportunities.

    Jews are ruthlessly discriminated against and can barely enter prestigious organisations.

    America has had a totally ineffective and failed foreign policy (even though it has somehow come to dominate the globe.)

    The American political system is extremely unstable (despite operating as it does for longer than most countries have existed.)

    American manufacturing is dead (even if more is manufactured there than ever.)

    And it goes on and on…

    These criticisms serve a purpose, but one must surely notice a pattern of falsehood by extreme exaggeration.

    And one might see how that falsehood would actually flatter the American ego?

    Meanwhile, China is a utopia with a perfect foreign policy record, perfect intelligence, perfect social harmony and its only vice is being too good.

    As I said, these are two personas. One late adolescent and one infantile.

  266. @AnonFromTN

    I would suggest you to go through this ==> http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/

    Megasthenes travelled to India and wrote a book called Indica before Christ was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indica_(Megasthenes)

    India is a quadrilateral-shaped country, bounded by the ocean on the southern and the eastern side.[6] The Indus river forms the western and the north-western boundary of the country, as far as the ocean.[7] India’s northern border reaches the extremities of Tauros. From Ariana to the Eastern Sea, it is bound by mountains that are called Kaukasos by the Macedonians. The various native names for these mountains include Parapamisos, Hemodos and Himaos (the Himalayas).[8] Beyond Hemodos, lies Scythia inhabited by the Scythians known as Sakai.[9] Besides Scythia, the countries of Bactria and Ariana border India.[10]

    India has many large and navigable rivers, which arise in the mountains on its northern border. Many of these rivers merge into Ganges, which is 30 stadia wide at its source, and runs from north to south. The Ganges empties into the ocean that forms the eastern boundary of Gangaridai.[11] Other nations feared Gangaridai’s huge force of the biggest elephants, and therefore, Gangaridai had never been conquered by any foreign king.[12]

    Indus also runs from north to south, and has several navigable tributaries. The most notable tributaries are Hupanis, the Hudaspes, and the Akesines.[13] One peculiar river is Sillas, which originates from a fountain of the same name. Everything cast into this river sinks down to the bottom – nothing floats in it.[10] In addition, there are a large number of other rivers, supplying abundant water for agriculture. According to the native philosophers and natural scientists, the reason for this is that the bordering countries are more elevated than India, so their waters run down to India, resulting in such a large number of rivers.[14]

    Indian civilization is one of the oldest in world which inhabited current Indian territory for thousands of years. Nation-state came into existence in 1947.

    ==============

    But there is something very puzzling about China. When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Like a clockwork. Couple of centuries of stability and then boom 5-10% of population dead in conflicts. For such a high IQ civilization who prefer order and continuity, they seem to be incapable of orderly transitions.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @BS
  267. Meena says:
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    “When we step out of the house we are scared,” Devi says. “And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. … And there are no bathrooms. We don’t have any kind of facility. We have to go out.”
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  268. Meena says:
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    “When we step out of the house we are scared,” Devi says. “And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. … And there are no bathrooms. We don’t have any kind of facility. We have to go out.”
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  269. Meena says:
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey

    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed,

    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  270. d dan says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    “Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of…”tactical”, be my guest.”

    This is the problem with commenter like you who don’t know much (or anything) about a remote culture, and then try to make judgement and decision on something that you are totally ignorant of.

    Yes, China alienated Vietnamese – so what? China made plenty of friends out of ASEAN at that time because most ASEAN countries actually liked the fact that China was teaching Vietnamese a “lesson” that US couldn’t. They felt much safer after the Chinese invasion. It further showed the useless-ness of Soviet-Vietnam alliance. Several commenters have already talked about the strategic reasons, and I could go on more and more for two hours – but at it stands, existing points are sufficient rebuttals for your silly comment.

    “It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.”

    And the egg shell is likely be on your head – it has been demonstrated again, again, again….., again, that people in the west are totally lost when talking about middle east, about Africa, about China,… They like to use their pre-existing western framework to understand foreign countries/culture.

    “so are incapable of accurate self-reflection”

    This shows your self projection – Chinese people is likely one of the most open-minded people today – they did serious soul searching for over a century to achieve what they arrive today – at one time, they even thought of giving up their own language, their religion etc! Just imagine how much self-reflections had they gone through.

    Most westerners, however, have gone the other way – kind of remind the Chinese of the way the Qinq officials treated foreigners – except it is the west that is treating Chinese this time.

    “So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. “

    If you were even perceptive enough, you would even notice that most Chinese don’t bring up this episode – until some Indians, some Vietnamese or some westerners decide to bring this up as a way to show how the “weaknesses” of Chinese army. Talking about strawman….

  271. d dan says:
    @AaronB

    “Absolute free trade is only preached by countries,…”

    LOL, this shows how “principled” you are for the Taoism/libertarian ideal….

    “It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.”

    Quite frankly, I have little motivation to even point up the stupidity of your comment like this statement – I am posting this comment mainly to laugh at your hypocrisy and to expose your true color.

    Hahahahahahah.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @lin
  272. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up

    How about expressing this as a fraction of the population? What I mean is, if you compare raw numbers of flu death in any year in China, I am sure it would be greater than the whole population of Barbados. But it does not mean that China is wiped out every year by flu.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  273. AaronB says:
    @d dan

    When did I ever support unrestricted free trade? Or libertarianism for that matter?

    I do support a relatively high level of social and political freedom, but I also support order.

    I’m not an extremist. I also adapt to circumstances.

    Taoist laisse faire is certainly the ideal – anarchy is the ideal – but today’s people grow up psychologically disfigured, so could not immediately live like that.

    I even said that the harshly repressive CCP may have been necessary for a time, but that it is far from ideal and cannot and should not last.

    And in cases of extreme chaos, I would support temporary authoritarianism. And in cases where civilization has become too repressive and uptight, like in Victorian times, I would support tearing it all down.

  274. @AnonFromTN

    Even as a % of their population they are horrendous. Almost like 5-10% of entire population

    Take Taiping rebellion. Estimates are between 10 to 30 million dead. China population in 1850 is 450 million. So 2.2 to 6.6% perished. Great leap forward apparently killed 5% of population. (both taken from Wikipedia. I am a newbie when it comes to China. Still learning about it. Quite fascinating)

    When you compare it with equally populous India, the difference is quite stark. As usual, India under performs in mass killings as well.

  275. A123 says:
    @AaronB

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    We have a similar conclusion, but I am have some significant differences with your process.

    I do not think that ‘absolutely free trade’ can benefit any country. It is part of the SJW Globalist play book to diminish nations. The SJW Globalist assault on the U.S. was particularly egregious, as it resulted in obviously unfair and unequal trade. The U.S. needs to bring tariffs back at “above equal” levels for a few decades repair the damage done by SJW Corporate Globalism.

    It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    China, as the main exploiter of SJW Globalist corporate policy, is #1 in line to be hit as Populism replaces Globalism. State Owned Enterprises [SOE’s] are highly inefficient and need an ‘exploitation advantage’ to stay in business. They will have to find new victims or reform. Certainly tough times ahead for China. Financially pressured SOE’s will default resulting in bank failures.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It’s obviously already speeding up.

    Yes. The process is not instant, but if the U.S. commits to rebuilding industry damaged by the SJW/China Axis, it can do so in an economically competitive manner.

    Ending Chinese Exploitation is only the first step. Some significant tariffs will help U.S. industry, and hopefully start to balance the U.S. Budget again. Apple may be able to duck income taxes. They will find it much harder to duck tariffs applied to imported iPhone components.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: AaronB
  276. BS says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    When every peasant has the genetic potential in him to become Emperor, you end up with such situations. In many other parts of the world when state authority breaks down you have a mass of fellaheen who lack the worldview or intellect to envision enlarging their personal slice of the pie. In China, any old bandit could with sufficient talent seize control of the Empire. Look at how many Imperial dynasties had peasant founders and you’ll see that the Chinese are in essence a race of cutthroat strivers, not collectivists but rather individualistic to the point of crippling detriment.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  277. @Daniel Chieh

    In fairness they probably have only been fed western led anti China propaganda. On any normal planet – if you take and then hold your adversary’s territory – you didnt lose. And yes the thinking on Cambodia was long term. That is what happens when you dont have to worry about election cycles.

  278. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Ummmm… China kept building its road in 2017. Bhutan told India to mind its business since it was there dispute – not India. India backed down. Wikipedia is not a good arbiter.

  279. @lin

    國姓爺 has black soldiers who were not quite slaves, but were on lower on the totem pole than his Chinese soldiers.

    Koxinga was abundantly provided with cannons and ammunition . . He had also two companies of ‘Black-boys,’ many of whom had been Dutch slaves and had learned the use of the rifle and musket-arms. These caused much harm during the war in Formosa.

    The latter courageously marched in rows of twelve men towards the enemy, and when they came near enough, they charged by firing three volleys uniformly. The enemy, not less brave, discharged so great a storm of arrows that they seemed to darken the sky. From both sides some few fell hors de combat, but still the Chinese were not going to run away, as was imagined. The Dutch troops now noticed the separated Chinese squadron which came to surprise them from the rear; and seeing that those in front stubbornly held their ground, it now became a case of sero sapiunt Phryges. They now discovered that they had been too confident of the weakness of the enemy, and had not anticipated such resistance. If they were courageous before the battle (seeking to emulate the actions of Gideon), fear now took the place of their courage, and many of them threw down their rifles without even discharging them at the enemy. Indeed, they took to their heels, with shameful haste, leaving their brave comrades and valiant Captain in the lurch. Pedel, judging that it would be the veriest folly to withstand such overwhelming numbers, wished to close together and retreat in good order, but his soldiers would not listen to him. Fear had the upper-hand, and life was dear to them; each therefore sought to save himself. The Chinese saw the disorder and attacked still more vigorously, cutting down all before them. They gave no quarter, but went on until the Captain with one hundred and eighteen of his army were slain on the field of battle, as a penalty for making light of the enemy. Other misfortunes befell this unhappy company. A large number of the rifles in possession of our troops were left behind. This battle was fought on a sandy plain, from which escape was impossible, and but for the proximity of the pilot-boat, which lay close to the shore, not one would have been left to tell the tale. The fugitives, who had to wade up to their throats in water, were conveyed to Tayouan..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia

    • Replies: @Lin
  280. @LOLknee

    No, I am serious. I never troll the non troll anons. And please stay civil or I will also become very, very uncivil. I am not those nice Chinese anons.

    If we go by your definition, there would be a European civilization for thousands of years too. I hope you understand the point I am making by this sentence.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  281. @BS

    There is a certain charm to the Indian system – it was more of a culture than an actual nation, but anthropologists have mentioned how functional it was, to the point that currency was unnecessary even in a small town, but all tasks were handled by intensely specialized castes to a point that its hard to imagine: shoemakers, farmers, and I remember in some examples, even hereditary male prostitutes specializing in a specific position of sex.

    This could be quite horrible, though:

    One extreme possibility might be the situation the French anthropologist Jean-Claude Galey encountered in a region of the eastern Himalayas where as recently as the 1970s, the low-ranking castes—they were referred to as “the vanquished ones,” since they were thought to be descended from a population once conquered by the current landlord caste many centuries before—lived in a situation of permanent debt dependency. Landless and penniless, they were obliged to solicit loans from the landlords simply to find a way to eat—not for the money, since the sums were paltry, but because poor debtors were expected to pay back the interest in the form of work, which meant they were at least provided with food and shelter while they cleaned out their creditors’ outhouses and reroofed their sheds.

    For the “vanquished”—as for most people in the world, actually—the most significant life expenses were weddings and funerals. These required a good deal of money, which always had to be borrowed. In such cases it was common practice, Galey explains, for high-caste moneylenders to demand one of the borrower’s daughters as security.

    Often, when a poor man had to borrow money for his daughter’s marriage, the security would be the bride herself. She would be expected to report to the lender’s household after her wedding night, spend a few months there as his concubine, and then, once he grew bored, be sent off to some nearby timber camp, where she would have to spend the next year or two working as a prostitute to pay off her father’s debt.

    Once accounts were settled, she return to her husband and begin her married life.

    This seems shocking, outrageous even, but Galey does not report any widespread feeling of injustice.

    Everyone seemed to feel that this was just the way things worked. Neither was there much concern voiced among the local Brahmins, who were the ultimate arbiters in matters of morality—though this is hardly surprising, since the most prominent moneylenders were often Brahmins themselves. Even here, of course, it’s hard to know what people were saying behind closed doors.

    If a group of Maoist rebels were to seize control of the area (some do operate in this part of rural India) and round up the local usurers for trial, we might suddenly hear all sorts of views expressed.

    – Graeber, David from his book Debt

    Of course, those “Maoist rebels” are often Chinese assisted but given the situation, I think I have rather less sympathy for their harmony of the caste culture.

    • Thanks: BS
    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Jatt Arya
  282. LOLknee says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    Pretty sure that’s been established, yes.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  283. @DB Cooper

    And I say to you Mr Poocer, you write a “Nunch of Bonsence”. Have a doog gay.

  284. @Hypnotoad666

    I dream of the days when my only concern with world affairs is getting robo calls from Indians!

  285. @A123

    The EU and U.S. are about to start a trade war. The notion that they will unite to fight China only exists in someone’s dream.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/18/europe-us-digital-tax-trade-war-328338

    Some of the issues facing EU and U.S. are rather long term:

    The EU should neither be treated as a partner superpower with whom the U.S. can share the spoils of unfettered trade nor should it be underestimated as a subordinate global power.

    Jonathan P.G. Bach
    December 1, 1999

    https://ips-dc.org/us-eu_trade_issues/

    I won’t even mention the Boeing-Airbus dispute.

    • Replies: @A123
  286. @LOLknee

    Yet, there was never a pan European country besides Rome. Which died a long ago. I don’t consider Byzantine European.

    It seems by your definition, civilization is formed by people simply living in an area. Without the need for an identity or country/empire or political unity.

    That is very fresh I must say. It does seem like moving the goal post or inventing a new one. But I can sort of understand. Cause I like the idea of civilizations existing every where on earth.

  287. @AaronB

    Oh look, another Zionist troll coming to help a fellow worker.

    Good on you.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Troll: AaronB
  288. A123 says:
    @last straw

    The EU and U.S. are about to start a trade war.

    The EU is going to target primarily non-taxpaying SJW Globalist multinationals. Unless Biden somehow frauds his way into office, official U.S. Government support will be tied to U.S. Citizens employed and U.S. Taxes paid.

    You should probably downgrade this to EU-US Trade Scuffle. Or, skirmish. Or, possibly kerfuffle.

    US-UK trade is set to explode once the UK gets clear of authoritarian EU regulation. This will further reduce any U.S. harm from the kerfuffle.

    The notion that they will unite to fight China only exists in someone’s dream.

    They do not have to unite. For example, recent events show:

    — China was dumping steel on the U.S. Market.
    — The U.S. Stopped China’s exploitative practice.
    — China reacted by moving their dumping to the European steel Market.
    — The EU stopped China’s exploitative practice.

    There does not need to be active coordination. Various nations and trade groups will hammer down abusive China in response to China’s bad behaviour. No “uniting” required, merely enlightened self interest.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @last straw
  289. I still don’t understand why China is engaging in such foolish behaviour. India very clearly wants to de-escalate while China seems intent on trying to flex on them, and frankly humiliate them. That would be a short-term tactical victory but a long-term strategic error.

    India in of itself is no real match for China, but India as a chesspiece for the US shouldn’t be underestimated. The US is trying to marshal other Western countries, notably the EU, to attack China. Thus far it has mostly, but not completely, failed because of Trump’s incompetence. A liberal/internationalist administration would be far more skilled in doing this. This is the USA’s great strategic advantage over China: its vast network of alliances. Those alliances have been frayed during the Trump era, but it’d be a mistake to take them as burned.

    Given a combined US/EU/Anglosphere push, China would not have much chance if all these actors really turned the skrews. So what does China do? It alienates another big neighbour which would be useful to use by these powers.

    Daniel Chieh spoke of Cambodia earlier in the thread. They just lost GSP+ designation, which will have significant ramifications on their economy. The EU is a huge export market for their garments, much more so than the US and even China. Beijing may be their biggest foreign investor but without exports markets there’s no reason to invest given how little Cambodia exports to China. The removal of GSP+ is almost certainly a pressure tactic against China, a warning shot against China’s friends.

    China may be large, but it is also without many genuine friends. Russia may inevitably choose China over India if push comes to shove, but it would do so only as a last resort and Russia itself has very limited economic heft; it’s economy is smaller than Benelux. All in all, I find this escalation to be extremely short-sighted by the Chinese and I am frankly surprised by their rash foolishness given their increasingly precarious position. The threat was never India alone.

    • Agree: AaronB
  290. Tor597 says:
    @LOLknee

    lol

    You cite an Indian blogger with one post on his website whose greatest complaint is that the IQ study did end up in a mainstream paper.

    Now why do you think that is?

    • Replies: @LOLknee
  291. @Daniel Chieh

    Only three years ago, I was watching a prgramme about a village in the Chinese interior debating what to do about their first tap with running water – for the village. Both countries still contain huge pockets of extreme poverty. Most of the world’s poorest billion live in India and China not in the 50 poorest countries in GDP/capita terms.

    • Disagree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  292. Hacienda says:
    @Thulean Friend

    I still don’t understand why China is engaging in such foolish behaviour. India very clearly wants to de-escalate while China seems intent on trying to flex on them, and frankly humiliate them. That would be a short-term tactical victory but a long-term strategic error.

    Do you understand the whats, hows, and whys of a bitch slap down?

  293. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I agree. The socialist ideas of Congress and the London School of Economics that educated its upper echelons (and many elites in Africa too) held India back. I list Nehru in my list of failures of socialism. To be fair he did not kill millions but he failed to make them prosper.

  294. d dan says:
    @Thulean Friend

    “I still don’t understand why China is engaging in such foolish behaviour.”

    Simple answer: because you don’t know what China is engaging – what you hear so far are mostly from Indian and western media. China wants to deescalate – that is why it try to be quiet and letting diplomacy works.

    “The US is trying to marshal other Western countries, notably the EU, to attack China. “

    You probably don’t know that the train has left? China is currently the biggest consumer market in the world – biggest car market, biggest computer market, biggest smartphone market, biggest Internet market,… If dollar-Yuen exchange rate is realistic, China would be the biggest GDP also – in terms of nominal number, not just PPP. China has provided more than 50% of world’s economic growth. China’s manufacturing capability is as big as the next three biggest manufacturing countries combined – US, Japan and Germany.

    Now, tell me, who should be playing defense, and who should be in better position to attack?

    “This is the USA’s great strategic advantage over China: its vast network of alliances. “

    That is probably one of the typical mistake by American. Nation has no friends, but interests. You think German is going to sacrifice its lucrative investment in China for USA’s strategic interests? LOL.

  295. Lin says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    國姓爺 has black soldiers who were not quite slaves

    I said black slaves existed in ancient china doesn’t mean every visible minorites were slaves.
    Another good example Mulan the transvestite Chinese heroine was apparently not a Han(ethnic Persian I suspect).

  296. Ano4 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Indus civilisation, built by non-Arian populations, seems to have been quite egalitarian. But since Aryan invasions some 3500 years ago India became extremely unequal. This inequality parallels ethnic diversity that is due to the great size and geographical complex structure of the country and the countless invasions Hindustan has gone through during its history.

    Varna system is probably a very efficient socioeconomic system to organize this human chaos of casts, clans and tribes and come up with some semblance of order. Hinduism is a belief system exquisitely fitting to bind together this chaotic system.

    Modern India is striving to become a nation, to somehow create uniformity in this chaos. But it tries to build this unity by reinforcing Hinduism. This is of course impossible, for Hinduism is chaotic by design. To build a Bharat nation Hinduism and all its tribal and caste contradictions must be transformed in something less chaotic and more egalitarian. It will not happen without suffering on a gigantic scale because there are too many contradictions and too much destructive imbalances accumulated in this entropic system.

    Each time Indian culture tried to arrive at some uniformity under Buddhism or under Islam it failed. The chaos and Hinduism always came back reinforced, while the civilization come weakened. It is quite possible that this time it will be different, but probably not.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  297. @EldnahYm

    And you are stupid?

    See, I love one liners too.

  298. @Thulean Friend

    Why do you assume China is the aggressor in this situation? It’s a commonly held notion actually but I’m interested in hearing your thought process.

    For a contrarian take from an Indian perspective, MKB, a former Indian diplomat, writes in the link below about China’s perspective in the situation. He is a skeptic of the current direction of Indian foreign policy, believing his country has miscalculated in pursuing an aggressive posture towards China.

    https://indianpunchline.com/1962-india-china-war-redeux/

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  299. @DB Cooper

    ‘… Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.’

    Lol (well, smirk). Let’s rephrase that:

    ‘…Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations peoples are ruled by India rather than China, so suddenly I’m all for their independence.’

    Your hypocrisy is almost cute. It’s so transparent.

    • Replies: @lin
  300. @Philip Owen

    India pre-1991 growth is not vastly inferior to post-1991.

    India like most of the world enjoyed a good decade in the 2000s. But by the 2010s growth had sputtered (the high rates of growth reported in 2014-19 are met with widespread skepticism by economists in India). By the last quarter of 2019 growth had fallen below 5%. A major reason why India is positioning itself to fight China at the border is excessive optimism about another 2000s boom right around the corner. There’s no reason to see a boom coming in India. But Indians insist. They believe their country will be a peer competitor to China in the medium term. Indian strategy is not proportionate to its future strength level. Psychologically, the idea of being a relatively poor middle income country in 2040 is very depressing and not befitting the image of an accomplished civilization and people who are taking over tech in Silicon Valley as CEOs and working as bankers on Wall Street.

    Modi’s $10 trillion dream: Commit to make India world’s third largest economy by 2030, says BJP manifesto
    By: FE Online | Updated: Apr 08, 2019 1:23 PM

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Philip Owen
  301. @d dan

    You think German is going to sacrifice its lucrative investment in China for USA’s strategic interests? LOL.

    Possibly. Modern warfare for big powers may go something like this sequence: 1) a bit of kinetic; 2) lots of information warfare; 3) comprehensive financial sanctions.

    If there is a clash between China and the US, it will unite the American people including liberals, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, and even the anti-Trump media. The united Western media would zealously promote anti-China narratives as a war mongering aggressor like Russia in 2014. China has feeble media power and not even the conception of the need to engage international audiences as demonstrated in the aftermath of the clash with India. China has done a feeble job of defending itself against Western media slander in the last few years especially the US government and media joint effort to dangerously portray the counter insurgency in Xinjiang as another Holocaust (“concentration camps”). The combination of ground work laid over years portraying the Chinese government as evil and aggressive smearing of China as a danger to the world after the kinetic part could unite almost all of the rich world against China. They will follow the lead of crippling US sanctions.

    I don’t think Chinese grand strategists even have an inkling for this plausible scenario. They are stuck in the 20th century. China is now building a big navy. Do the strategists think there is going to be a big decisive naval battle in the future?

    • Replies: @d dan
  302. lin says:
    @Colin Wright

    @DB Cooper

    ‘… Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.’

    Lol (well, smirk). Let’s rephrase that:

    ‘…Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations peoples are ruled by India rather than China, so suddenly I’m all for their independence.’

    Your hypocrisy is almost cute. It’s so transparent.

    Your hypocrisy isn’t unexpected.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  303. lin says:
    @d dan

    “It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.”

    I have rebuked such stupidity for a number of times. Those who made such claims simply don’t or can’t read economic data. I tempt not to rebuke any more. Such view actually could be beneficial to china.

  304. @lin

    ‘Your hypocrisy isn’t unexpected.’

    I wouldn’t bother if I were you. Compared to Zionist Hasbarim, you advocates for China are pathetically feeble.

    I would eat you, but (a) since my nation doesn’t subsidize China, your inequities aren’t of immediate concern to me, and (b), you wouldn’t be much of a challenge.

    That last is a compliment, incidentally. Unlike los hasbaristas, you just lack the intuitive, instinctive dishonesty necessary to the role. You will tend to think in terms of the truth, and then clumsily attempt to deviate from it.

    Learn from Israel. To lie well, you must live the lie.

    …or better yet, don’t. Speaking for myself, I’ve no insuperable objection to allowing China her place in the sun and coming to a modus vivendi. Hard on various smaller ethnic groups, but I can’t save the world. China’s a big boy now, and it’s pointless to attempt to bully her.

    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @Lin
  305. @Philip Owen

    Of the world’s 736 million extreme poor in 2015, 368 million, half of the total lived in just 5 countries. The 5 countries with the highest number of extreme poor are (in descending order): India, Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, and Bangladesh. They also happen to be the most populous countries of South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, the two regions that together account for 85 percent (629 million) of the world’s poor.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
  306. Lin says:
    @Colin Wright

    you advocates for China are pathetically feeble.

    Haha, feeble or not isn’t the matter; 1st of all, I’m not a propagandist and I usually only comment on things which are:
    **Well established or ‘proven’ or recorded
    **Easily searched or data accessed,
    **but however often distorted,denied..(A good example is the shepherd&sheep relation in Psalm23)

    …….
    You basically confirm my claim on your hypocrisy.(I can’t imagine you type &sidetracked so much on a simple point.)

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  307. d dan says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    “If there is a clash between China and the US, it will unite the American people including liberals, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, and even the anti-Trump media. “

    US will be united only if China attacks US in Pearl Harbor style – how likely you think this would happen?

    In the more likely events that US goes to Asia to fight against China, either for Taiwan, Diaoyu/Sengaku or some islands in South China Sea, it is almost certain that US/the west will be divided – especially if the war goes for a long time, or if it does not go well for US.

    “China has feeble media power and not even the conception of the need to engage international audiences as demonstrated in the aftermath of the clash with India. “

    Actually the reason that China tries not to talk too much is because it wants to de-escalate the clash with India. But I agree that China’s media power is still feeble.

    “China is now building a big navy. Do the strategists think there is going to be a big decisive naval battle in the future?”

    No, the navy is to protect its trade routes and oversea investments. It provides deterrence against US from kidnapping Chinese cargo ship like what US did last time. China also should have the freedom to trade with any countries, including Iran or Venezuela – the navy will help to ensure that happen.

  308. @Lin

    Sigh. Anyone from the A-team out there?

    (Come on. This is what I would expect from Nigeria — not China).

    …not that I care. I’m not about to start seriously arguing with Chinese propagandists — there are definitely better uses for my time.

    • LOL: A123
  309. @Blinky Bill

    Why are you using outdated data when much recent data is available?

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/africa/nigeria-overtakes-india-extreme-poverty-intl/index.html

    Nigeria has overtaken India as the country with the largest number of people living in extreme poverty, with an estimated 87 million Nigerians, or around half of the country’s population, thought to be living on less than $1.90 a day.

    At present, an estimated 5.3% of Indians or 71.5 million people, live below the poverty line.

    The above data is from 2018. Right now it fell below 50 million people in absolute poverty. Currently, India is below both Nigeria and Congo. In another 3-5 years absolute poverty in India will be gone.

  310. @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Most of the world’s poorest billion live in India and China not in the 50 poorest countries in GDP/capita terms.

    Do you agree with this statement by Philip Owen, based on your 2018 data set ?

  311. Menes says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Nice pic.

    This is the best picture of Mao that I have seen. He looks almost unrecognizable.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  312. DB Cooper says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    “Sounds highly unlikely.”

    I know. But it is true. There really is no ethnic slur word for the Uighurs or the Tibetans or any of the other ethnic minorities for that matter. You can do some investigation on this since you have a very good handle on everything Chinese in general.

    The West of course has an alphabetical soup of ethnic slur words for every ethnic group, which is very weird from the point of view of the Chinese. Anti-Semitism, oppression of the Irish by the English..etc. does not have an equivalent in China because groups like this would have long absorbed into the Han group. The US did not invent the melting pot thing. China did, not by intention of course.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  313. @A123

    Your trivializing of EU-US disputes sounds a little bit disingenuous. Anyway, if EU and the U.S. can’t form a united front against China, then there is not much for China to worry about.

    • Replies: @A123
  314. DB Cooper says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    “In another 3-5 years absolute poverty in India will be gone.”

    Highly unlikely. Poverty in India will actually go up in the coming decades.

    • Replies: @lin
  315. DB Cooper says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    Delusion of grandeur is not a new thing in India.

  316. @Menes

    They don’t make leftists like they use to.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Ano4
  317. lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    I suggest not to bother with ‘absolute poverty’ in the case of india and china..
    Large scale india stats are usually not reliable due to lack of admin machinery and/or political will. The best examples are unemployment/under-employment rate and population size. I once web searched india population and the figures could differ by 70 millions(If you find sizable discrepancy in china population figures,it has to do with whether those of HK,TW &Macau are included or not).
    I suggest to use % of people in ‘middle class” families which the china gov stats bureau define as one that has automobile(4 wheels, not scooter), can afford vacations and decent housing. 140 million Chinese families(assume 3 to 3.5 people each, say) are ‘middle class’. Such data can be referred by car production, total air passenger/flights&HSR trips, construction floor space…
    Yes, china is still poor
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/25-million-people-apply-indian-railway-job-vacancies-180330094353449.html

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  318. A123 says:
    @last straw

    Your trivializing of EU-US disputes sounds a little bit disingenuous.

    You misunderstanding of the dispute is easily remediated, if you have an open mind.

    The simple truth is that there is no EU-US dispute. There is a “SJW Germany”-US dispute.

    — The U.S. has options for easy, high value, narrow, specific targets aimed exclusively at authoritarian SJW Globalist nations within the EU. Most notably the Fascist German Reich of Fuhrer Merkel. The German auto sector is easily identified… the ringed swastika of Mercedes, the 4 swastikas of Audi, the swastika shield of Porsche/VW, etc.
    — Any German retaliation is more problematic. Germany would help Trump by striking at Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, etc. The impending ‘no enforcement’ NI-Ireland border generated by German BREXIT intransigence will be the joy of smugglers. Luxury autos are impossible to smuggle. Anything Germany tries to penalize will be amenable to irregular border transit.

    The U.S. has neither the need, nor the want, to fight Europe broadly. The chisel will be hammered directly & exclusively on Furher Merkel’s Dark, SJW Globalist, German Heart of Europe intentionally avoiding U.S. allies among other EU countries. Many EU nations will quietly or openly celebrate Germany’s humiliating defeat.

    if EU and the U.S. can’t form a united front against China, then there is not much for China to worry about.

    Chinese steel exporters that are facing bankruptcy due to heavy, independently imposed, tariffs in the EU, UK and U.S. show that objective fact disproves your statement.

    PEACE 😇

  319. Menes says:
    @lin

    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu–

    More like black superman.

    The most famous chinese, Confucius, was also a black man (maybe from India?):

    As was Bodhidharma, the founder of Chan or Zen Buddhism, and the non-violent buddhist martial arts like Kung Fu:

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • LOL: Ano4
    • Replies: @lin
    , @Ano4
  320. Escher says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    How is the absolute poverty level defined?

  321. LOLknee says:
    @Tor597

    If you read the post, you’d see that Lynn cherrypicked the data that supported his predetermined number of “82” when the available data clearly said otherwise. And that many of the samples he selected were unrepresentative.

    Lynn seems to have a habit of doing that… Strange.

  322. Escher says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Regarding open defecation – Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    There’s plenty of reports online that a large percentage of these toilets don’t work.
    Also I wouldn’t trust the statistics published by the Indian government, whether its poverty reduction or toilet construction.
    The level of unemployment in India is very high, with most people working in the informal sector, for poor pay and no benefits.

    • Replies: @lin
  323. DB Cooper says:
    @lin

    The picture of the trains with people sitting on the rooftop shows just how pathetic India infrastructure is. India really should spend its money improving the country’s dire infrastructure.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  324. @DB Cooper

    Molon Labe,

    The 7 states of the NE have a population of about 50 million and just a quarter are natives, they lost the demographic battle long back. And assume that WE in a spirit of moral righteous retardation grant those 7 states independence, yes grant those Naga Head Hunters independence then what.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=naga+headhunters&newwindow=1&sxsrf=ALeKk02YlQAV-4FUtwH5PR10cMI6RtL1fw:1592550009948&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb4YSNp43qAhVO4aQKHXQOAQkQ_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1517&bih=730

    There’s an absolute demographic beast called the Bengalis below them, 90 Million on the Indian Side and 250 Million on the Bangladeshi side, they will utterly overwhelm these head hunters in weeks, the Indian Military is fighting a losing battle to keep the hordes away, we have electrified fences where possible around Bangladesh, we shoot dead hundreds every year to keep them away… so you get the drift your muh North East will be begging us to control the Bengali Swarm once you get Independence that is 7 tiny states with nothing in common. Think before you post such rubbish

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  325. DB Cooper says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    I am talking South Tibet (so called AP), not the whole northeast because the rest of the northeast was never part of China but South Tibet was. China should take back South Tibet and kicked out all the migrants/non native people there. China should give the non-native people enough money to repatriate them back to India so they can resettle back to their place of origin. That should be the fairest solution to all parties. The people in South Tibet should not live under the draconian AFSPA and they have a history of fighting the British and then the Indians.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  326. lin says:
    @Menes

    Confucius wasn’t black; just shading contrast. Ancient Chinese painters apparently realized paper/clothes turned brown over the years. As I mentioned before,both Confucius and Jesus had parentage issue. Christians tell you Jesus is Son of God while ancient Chinese history records stated Confucius was a bastard—a testament to secularity of Chinese civilization

  327. lin says:
    @Escher

    Easy on india toilet matters.
    The ancient hindu sage Manu actually asked people to defecate away from home. That was practical because of the much lower population density then. Most ancients crapped outdoor and even if toilets were available, they were usually gross and just holes on the ground.
    ……….
    The problem with toilets in india is not just number of toilets; a big problem is lack of covered or underground sewage system. A hole on the ground might just let the shit leak to the underground water table and created much bigger problem while the hot indian sun could sterilize the shit piles on the ground.
    Guru Manu was a wise man, OK?
    Many years ago I travelled to Xinjiang China and the public toilets in the outskirts of cities could be just holes on the ground; but then underground water there was salty and not for drinking; city people there drink bottled water.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  328. Ano4 says:
    @Blinky Bill

    We do live in degenerate times.

  329. Ano4 says:
    @Menes

    Were they all descendants of some “Black Pharaohs”?

    I always wanted to learn more about the longlasting influence of the “Great Ancient African Civilization” on the genesis of archaic Han culture.

    Did Blacks civilize the Han before or after the Blacks left Lemuria for Atlantis?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @lin
  330. War mania is gripping India. The Indian government has adopted the position that it was a pre-planned attack. (This is not at all clear from the timeline from Indian sources.) Modi publically kindling expectations of an attack on China.

    The remark was strikingly similar to the promise of retaliation Modi made in the wake of terror attacks, organised from within Pakistan, on Indian security forces at Uri and Pulwama. In both cases, the pledges of retaliation were made good by launching strikes by special forces and the IAF on targets inside Pakistan.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-will-give-befitting-reply-to-provocation-warns-modi/articleshow/76435344.cms

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  331. @DB Cooper

    So What I can easily post pictures of poverty in China, what’s the point if you want ‘South Tibet’ aka Arunachal Pradesh and the North Eastern Head Hunters, come and fucking take it else shut up. You just lost your biggest market in the World, you guys total autistic idiots have already lost the West and now the biggest market in the east. Your giant Mobile companies like Xiaomei are on their knees begging the govt. not to pull the trigger. Enjoy Winnie the Flu’s self destructing dictatorship. I hope that you get the message you’ve LOST US. That’s what it means LOST us, we were the first country to recognize Gongchandang, we had such respect for your ancient civilization, such respect and now you shit on us.

    Many years ago when David Goldman was still Spengler in the Asia Times, I encountered such vicious hostility from the Chinese nationalists and it continues here, I was at such a loss why do they hate us, is it some Himalayan frontier problem, is it because the Dalai Llama made our country his home. the language used by them I mean ‘What’s the problem we can talk right?’ There was no talking just vicious racist abuse, so Asia Times shut down open comments and only allowed Facebook verified comments, these guys had fake accounts since Facebook is banned in China, and again the comments got shut down, no more commenting allowed on Asia Times. I digress the reason I brought it up was the raw hatred Chinese Nationalists have for Indians. I brought it up with Friends to no avail and I’m finally vindicated, any rational state would have cultivated us( so easy), and the Giant Market would have been theirs. What does cultivating us mean? Don’t help our enemy, only have one.

    To the Chinese nationalists, we keep reading how brilliant you’re in Statecraft, so how Brilliant is this you have the US as enemies and now you have us(India) as enemies, please explain the logic, Duterte of Phillipines had fired the American Military from his land and now he welcomes them back, Vietnam is run by the Communists and yet they are going to or already are in the American Orbit, forget SK and Japan, client states, NK just burned the reconciliation office, What are you trying to do and now you have made us Enemies WTF is your plan? Is pissing off everybody around a plan, your relationships with the west will no longer be the same and now us, we never saw you as an enemy, we never expected such behaviour, the scales have fallen of our eyes.

    Our PM(Loathe him because of the cultural baggage his party brings along) played the role of a puppy to Xi Jin Ping, rolled over got his belly tickled( met him 18 TIMES) licked him allover and finally got a brutal kick, so that’s it, our foreign policy vis a vis China’s totally shattered, all the Kowtowing didn’t work even at the smallest irrelevant level, you guys block us from entering the Nuclear Supplies Group, worse you block the UN from declaring bearded psycho killers as terrorists, that really hurts why won’t you allow terrorist psychos from Pakistan to be declared as such, what’s that to do with you? All the time you have access to our markets to the level of a 70 Billion trade surplus which is used to finance our enemy, pitiable state of affairs but it’s going to be corrected slowly and surely.

    To get back to the leitmotif of this thread as to why you hate us like Klansmen hate blacks, I can only postulate that the reason is an ethno-cultural hatred of us, we never expected it but we’ve to deal with it, it’s really hard to wake up to this hatred after all we’re an easygoing servile people. But wake up we will, we have woken up, you will have a billion people from this ‘Shithole’ to deal with and despite nuclear fantasies by some of your vile posters your southern problem is never going to go away. We’re still to come to terms with your hatred( What else to call it since their is no economic or strategic rationale) but we will, in our slow, chaotic and anarchic ways we’ll come to terms with it.

    I’m a liberal and think how the other side of the political divide feels. I hope that you Chinese nationalists got the message, sorry for the long drunken diatribe.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  332. @china-russia-all-the-way

    Don’t be ridiculous there’s no way we can militarily challenge China unless severely attacked and we have to defend. I’m struggling to figure out the rationale behind their escalation, for what, why piss us off badly. The entire carefully cultivated relationship has been shattered, both of us gained from it and yet the Chinese just pissed on it, for what purpose. I’m waiting for a coherent Chinese nationalist response as to why they did it.

  333. Jatt Arya says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You’ve posted this sort of atrocity literature before.

    In Panjab the untouchable Mahar tribe (Leather-worker) are money lenders||

    I believe I disputed and refuted this nonsense years ago.
    You’re a christcuck married to a frenchwoman and need to fight against your main rivals in Canada.

    Beyond that, no one really cares.

    Jews are disreputable until they say something you like||

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  334. @Europe Europa

    Such witty profound remarks, a monstrous geopolitical problem involving a third of humanity is dismissed under ‘call centres’, enjoy your Europe while it lasts, you’re overrun with North & Sub Saharan Africans but what does it matter – ‘Call Centres’ are the most pressing issue right?

  335. Arya Ji,

    That’s all they do, post shithole images of India, there’s no point in engaging in a serious conversation with them like how do two states comprising a third of humanity get along? Such an important profound geopolitical question and these idiots will talk about some French Anthropologist. We actually ought to respond to such nonsense by posting a Tang Dynasty Sewage Inspector’s report. That’s the level of the Chinese nationalists – gutter inspectors of India.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  336. @DB Cooper

    Fair enough, first give back Xinjiang, Tibet and ‘Inner Mongolia’ back to the ethnics and once you have done that send a letter to the Govt. of India and we’ll begin the heavy task of political and economic demobilization, I am waiting for the letter.

  337. @lin

    Easy on india toilet matters.

    Dear Mr. Lin please convey this most important message to the Chinese Nationalists on this forum, sir for some reason they’re obsessed with our defecation. A very unhealthy trend of thought if I may say.

    • LOL: Ano4
    • Replies: @lin
  338. @DB Cooper

    Tibetan Monks have burned themselves alive for what – your glorious Han Ethnostate? Think about that, really set yourself in the Monk’s mind, he doused himself with fuel and set himself alight to die in the most horrible way imaginable – why – tell me why did he subject himself to such unimaginable pain? Tell me come on tell me Chinese nationalists if Tibetans set themselves on flames it’s because of you HAN supremacists. Can you think of a more horrible way to tell you to fuck off. Fuck off from Tibet people have burnt themselves dead asking you to fuck off. There’s no way to spin this people setting themselves on fire just to tell you to fuck off.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  339. @Ano4

    I used to collect those, its pretty funny; I’ll see if I can link it again. Basically the idea is that China itself is actually a blank population, that recently purged its ancient population and replaced it with “whites” aka modern Asians.

    Entertaining batshit insanity.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  340. @Jatt Arya

    I’m not sure what you said which “disproves” the work indicated, which is pretty well documented. I posted it again since it was relevant.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
  341. @Grahamsno(G64)

    No one in China much thinks about India.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  342. @Daniel Chieh

    Really, no one thinks about India, how I wish you Chinese nationalists didn’t give a rats ass about us, Life would have been so easy, you sell your goods we buy – a win win situation, unfortunately this isn’t the case, take this site for example, Denk, DB Cooper and I can point to more, 75% of their posts are about India, they do have an obsession about India, I have been forced to carry the flag here which I’m totally uncomfortable with.

    The Geopolitics is even worse, you guys spend such a lot of energy on buying out our neighbours, surrounding us in our stomping grounds for what? And I notice if so much energy in your foreign policy is about fucking with us a huge cost, oh sure do a geopolitical jerk off with your OBOR, why fuck with us when your relationships with your neighbours are so fraught? Is pissing off us correct from a policy point of view? If you can’t answer this fundamental foreign policy question i.e Why are you going out of your way to piss off a captive market, a servile neighbour whose internal problems are so huge to make any foreign policy initiatives merely symbolic – just answer this question I want to know why? I am not getting into shitfights, Your mobile company OPPO sponsors our cricket team, that’s the level of penetration of Chinese companies

    So Daniel tell me, you two millenia old statesmen, is enmity with India more profitable than normal relationships? I talk to you as one mind with another, I really can’t figure it out. Why this hostility? Spell it out please.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  343. Ano4 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Well, first Swedes were Black, so “We wuz Kangz n’shiet!”

    https://shadowandact.com/a-documentary-claiming-the-first-swedes-were-dark-skinned-has-fragile-white-folks-up-in-arms

    Also in Spain:

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/06/more-north-iberian-epipaleolithic-mtdna.html?m=1

    Russia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sungir

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostyonki%E2%80%93Borshchyovo_archaeological_complex

    Must have been “Kangz” everywhere.

    Only problem is Y haplogroup C is very rarely found in Africa.

    Haplogroup C-M130 attains its highest frequencies among the indigenous populations of Kazakhstan, Mongolia, the Russian Far East, Polynesia, Australia, and at moderate frequency in Korea and Manchu people. It is therefore hypothesized that Haplogroup C-M130 either originated or underwent its longest period of evolution in the greater Central Asian region or in Southwest Asian coastal regions. Its expansion in East Asia is suggested to have started approximately 40,000 years ago.[2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130

    So basically, the mesolithic modern type humans found all across in Eurasia were dark-skinned, blue-eyed Asians!

    Until recently African Blacks largely stayed in Africa, where their highest 100% indigenous achievement (that did not receive any known significant foreign influence) was the 13th century Zimbabwe. A level of complexity that most other people on this planet surpassed 2000 years before African Blacks even got to it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  344. @Grahamsno(G64)

    So Daniel tell me, you two millenia old statesmen, is enmity with India more profitable than normal relationships? I talk to you as one mind with another, I really can’t figure it out. Why this hostility? Spell it out please.

    Drunk self-important rambles are annoying.

    Very little of China’s policy is about India, Indians have this obsessed idea of their own importance, but its when you have such enormous internal problems and then attempt to annoy China is when you get the bitch slap.

    But if you really want to know, its because you are annoying when you do make us pay attention to you. Your weird rambles are annoying. Your sense of self-importance without real accomplishment is annoying. Your tendency to do things poorly – from call centers to battle tanks to ruining entire companies – and be completely unashamed about it is annoying. You are even annoying to each other, which is why nothing much ever gets accomplished in India and everyone always seems to be trying to emigrate.

    You have a culture of individualistic chupatz where every man is trying to claim he is the best. East Asians, including the Chinese, have a culture of shame where accepting any individualistic praise is difficult and pride is collectivistic instead.

    The mental gap is pretty absolute.

    Of course there’s a lot of conflict.

    Perhaps then Indian nationalism is actually worth praising, though, as that might be 1)more understandable and 2)actually get things done. I don’t dislike Jatt Arya for all of his powerful takes, because I do understand the fondness of strength and coherency of Sikhism. But its not the majority of India, and that’s a tragedy.

    • Thanks: Jatt Arya
    • Replies: @LOLknee
    , @Grahamsno(G64)
  345. @Grahamsno(G64)

    We actually ought to respond to such nonsense by posting a Tang Dynasty Sewage Inspector’s report.

    Fortunately, I’m here to help you. Tang officials wrote enough receipts and reports, such that it was often used as wrapping paper by Tocharian tribes. And so we have learned even from the ancient era of legalistic Chinese wrangling and court cases. So, see, unlike India – China was pretty obsessed with formalistic processes, centralized control and “standards of evidence” even then.

    This is quite meaningful, because it shows inordinate attention to detail such that we can now date to exact years now, similar to Roman bureaucratic work. India can’t even accurately date historical figures.

    If you wonder why Chinese keep calling India not one state, that’s the reason. China was quite serious about being centralized control – and the Emperor(or at least his court) pretty much ran things – at least officially and certainly had significant power at all times. Its formalism. It is never enough to have “cultural influence,” the dynasties pretty much needed legal rule. And to bring this about, as many people as necessary would die. Chinese history is not humanistic.

    India never had anything like that until recently.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  346. LOLknee says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You know you have to go back, right?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  347. Very little of China’s policy is about India,

    Leave us alone south of the Himalayas, we aren’t competing with you for superpower status, as I said the business relationship works wonderfully for both sides. win win. but stay away from our stomping grounds, at this rate do you want us to recognize Taiwan. It’s come to that with your arrogance, pissing off everybody is great foreign policy

    But if you really want to know, its because you are annoying when you do make us pay attention to you. Your weird rambles are annoying. Your sense of self-importance without real accomplishment is annoying. Your tendency to do things poorly – from call centers to battle tanks to ruining entire companies – and be completely unashamed about it is annoying. You are even annoying to each other, which is why nothing much ever gets accomplished in India and everyone always seems to be trying to emigrate.

    Please tell that to your companies as far as I’m concerned we don’t want a buck of your poisoned currency. Oh since you are the suppliers from Hell who have woven yourselves into the atomic level there’s no getting rid of you guys. The Himalayas are there for a reason, if you come south of that you can’t avoid us which you are doing. Let’s do what our ancients did never mingle that way we keep mutual respect, stay north of the Himalayas or else you will have this gigantic southern problem a Himalayan sized problem.

    Your problem do you want a Himalayan sized one?

  348. @LOLknee

    That burned, eh?

    • Troll: LOLknee
    • Replies: @LOLknee
  349. LOLknee says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You jealous you chinks can’t hack it in the corporate world?

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  350. @Daniel Chieh

    If you wonder why Chinese keep calling India not one state, that’s the reason. China was quite serious about being centralized control – and the Emperor(or at least his court) pretty much ran things – at least officially and certainly had significant power at all times. Its formalism. It is never enough to have “cultural influence,” the dynasties pretty much needed legal rule. And to bring this about, as many people as necessary would die. Chinese history is not humanistic.

    India never had anything like that until recently.

    True India is not one state and it is a precarious collection of communities conquered by the British who gave us a modern state. It’s really the United states of India, but we finally achieved modern statehood and are here to stay. It’s sad that unlike you we never developed a historical consciousness, no spring and autumn period, no warring state period in our history because nobody recorded it, but you guys are unique so I wouldn’t be so hard on us Hindus, we finally achieved it and are a force to be reckoned with South of the Himalayas. So don’t dick around here unless you have a taste for being burnt.

  351. Meena says:

    India is not telling the truth

    10 Soldiers Including 4 Officers Released By Chinese Army After Talks 
    The release of the men, including two Majors, came about after three days of negotiations in the Galwan Valley headed by a Major General of the Army. https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-china-ladakh-border-clash-10-soldiers-including-4-officers-released-by-chinese-army-after-talks-2248843?pfrom=home-topstories

    10 soldiers released by China 60 hours after Ladakh clash undergo debriefing
    The negotiations for their release were kept tightly under wraps due to concerns for the safety of the soldiers amid the heightened tensions between the two sides, said the first person cited above.
    There was no official word on the development. All that the Indian Army and the external affairs ministry said on Thursday was that no Indian soldiers were “missing in action”.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/10-soldiers-released-by-china-60-hours-after-ladakh-clash-undergo-debriefing/story-MY66gpr5q7QbgR9KC6zdUL.html

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  352. @Grahamsno(G64)

    “I’m struggling to figure out the rationale behind their escalation”
    this is the way i am reading it india is building a road that could be used to bring tanks and soldires that could threaten the karakorum or one other hiway that i dont remember offhand. Also the sooldiers tresspassed on chinese land, this has been happening for over month now , so the indian soldiers tresspassed again like they had been doing for over a month, but instead of the usual jostling around , the chinese attacked with hundreds of their soldiers,so I put this on that CO that died( no martyr).

  353. Google says:
    @A123

    LMAO LMAO.

    Fighters do not take land, they break things. In an infantry based slugging match how much do fighters help?

    The idea of air superiority isn’t to take lands. It’s to bomb the enemy. Once Indian army and bases are bombed, the Chinese land force can annex the land.

    Land based ASM is a huge problem for ships that have a limited engagement range

    Huh? Anti-ship missile would be used for defensive. Do you even know where strait of malacca is?

    U.S. style supercarriers can provide air cover while staying out of land based ASM range

    Huh? Air cover from what?

    Number of operational Chinese supercarriers = 0. China has limits on its ability to operate near India’s coast.

    This is not Chinese aircraft carrier? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Shandong
    At least if you want to argue, google the subject 1st, so that you won’t look ignorant.
    And why would China need to attack India from the sea when China could annex Indian land with combination of air force & land force? Chinese naval force would be used for defense in case of Indians desperately tries to attack from the sea.

    India would also attempt to sneak land based ASM into islands within the Straits. Damaging a tanker’s engines or steering in the Straits would lead to collisions or groundings. The Indians have the much easier objective, interfering with tanker traffic.

    Huh? Sneaking it within what straits? Straits of malacca? Tanker? What tanker?

    It is hard to see on pure military terms how China scores a “win”. The inevitable result would be a massive quagmire. Worse yet, unprovoked Chinese aggression would destroy China’s relations with other nations

    Win is when India is bombed to oblivion. Unprovoked? Everyone knows it was Indians who crossed Chinese territory. Here’s map where the brawl happened;from BBC nonetheless, anti-China media, even they couldn’t lie much.
    China would get a lot of allies in South Asia by annexing disputed area India have with neighbors like Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and give the land to those countries. Even western MSM would have hard time spinning it as China land grabbing. China would be seen by South Asian countries as benevolent liberator.

    Be lucky CCP isn’t warmonger, because if CCP was more hawkish that’s what would happen.

  354. @Meena

    https://mobile.twitter.com/qin_duke/status/1273742324603006977

    Looks like the typical disaster.

    Poor initial plan, left people behind, getting captured, etc. I feel bad for the soldiers, tbh. Poor devils aren’t paid enough for this kind of “leadership.”

    • Replies: @Meena
  355. lin says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Grahamsno bhai, of course you can find people crapping pissing in the open all over the world including US.

    Fair enough, first give back Xinjiang, Tibet and ‘Inner Mongolia’ back to the ethnics

    Fair enough, first give back Kashmir,Goa, Punjab Kalistan… back to the ethnics. There’s a long list of separatist movement in Bharat.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39179515

  356. Last note to the Chinese Nationalists here,

    Guys stay the fuck away south of the Himalayas, its our stomping ground just like any sensible state would not have fucked with Ukraine because its Russia’s stomping ground, no reasonable state will fuck around with Mexico because its USA’s stomping ground, if you don’t cease this behaviour there will be a gigantic Himalayan sized problem down south think about a billion people with Nukes, what’s wrong with your statesmen do you think that this state of affairs can continue indefinitely, that we will continuously put up with this shit? That it’s business as usual a 70 Billion Trade surplus per year to finance our enemies, no it’s not, your flagship mobile companies will be the first ones to feel the heat, Geopolitically you’ve earnt the enemity of a billion people who harbored no ill will towards you.

    You’ve committed a catastrophic foreign policy blunder, tell your statesmen and change your course before its too late. Your Himalayan sized southern problem is going nowhere and it will get worse.

  357. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Lol, I kinda understand why Chinese called it chest thumping now.

    Thanks for that.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  358. @Astuteobservor II

    How else to respond to bullies

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  359. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Making boasts you can’t back up is entertaining – but not for the boaster when the bill comes due.

    Have you tried the humblebrag? Could be more interesting as a form.

  360. Google says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    If you look at this map, the brawl happened in galwan valley, inside Chinese controlled area;

    And this fact is consistent with story that Indian army ran and chased out by Chinese army. Also consistent with China having 10 Indian prisoners. Because it was Indian army that went to Chinese territory, thinking it was lightly guarded and they were wrong, so it felt like “ambushed” so in panic they ran away and Chinese army able to capture 10 Indian attackers.

    India started this to please their master USA.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  361. lin says:
    @Ano4

    Humans 10s of 1000s years ago had dark skin. Those in northern Eurasia according to what I read turned pale or ”bleached’ during the last ice age by the weather change.
    ‘Out of Africa’ seems to be quite established and humans are all ‘africans’ period
    The word ‘african’ or even ‘black african’ quoted in daily language has a relatively ‘recent’ meaning and darker skin doesn’t really imply that came from the ‘recent’ African gene pool.
    Its possible some ethnic groups in china, say 1000s of years ago and mentioned in Chinese history records had dark skin but unlikely they had close lineage with Africa we know of nowadays
    Australoids, as typified by the australian natives are also quite dark and they’re linked to the dravidians(eg tamils)in india(some minority groups in china are also said to be australoids though they don’t look like tamils nor australian natives).https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/who-are-the-australoid-race.html

    • Agree: Ano4
  362. @Daniel Chieh

    The mental gap is pretty absolute.

    So leave us alone in our stomping grounds south of the Himalayas, we both are ancient people and never did we militarily quarrel across the millennia other than modern times. Civilizational respect means maintaining distance and your statesmen refuse to do it. You finance Pakistan an existential enemy for what? Why do you insert your nation into this ancient vendetta? What does a Hindu Muslim quarrel matter to the Han? Nothing absolutely nothing other than dicking around.

    You’ve not answered my question is it profitable to have good or bad relationships with India. It’s come to that now, if Chinese statesmen feel that strangling India now to prevent its putative rise is a better option than having good relationships now…. Please let us know.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  363. Do Chinese and Indian people support settling the border disagrement along the border of actual controll? Also what do the commenters here think? Especially Indian and Chinese commenters.

  364. @Grahamsno(G64)

    So leave us alone in our stomping grounds south of the Himalayas, we both are ancient people and never did we militarily quarrel across the millennia other than modern times.

    Incorrect:

    Harsha-vardhana of India had earlier sent emissaries to Chang’an and in 643, around the time of Xuanzang’s departure from India, a Tang mission under a military official called Wang Xuance had repaid the compliment. Five years later, in 648, Wang Xuance was back in India at the head of a more impressive embassy that was doubtless influenced by Xuanzang’s reports on Harsha.

    But this time ambassador Wang Xuanxe received a very different reception. Harsha had died the previous year, his empire was already crumbling, and a Brahminical reaction had set in against the Buddhist community. Evidently, Xuanzang’s long sojourn and his influence on Harsha had encouraged the idea that Chinese support was enabling Indian Buddhists to subvert the political primacy claimed by India’s priestly caste. Wang Xuance’s 648 mission was therefore waylaid. Its valuables were stolen, its personnel detained and Wang Xuance himself barely escaped with his life. He escaped to Tibet.

    The rout of an embassy from the Son of Heaven, not to mention the Heavenly Qaghan, could not go unavenged. Wang Xuance demanded troops for a retaliatory attack on India and the Tibetans obliged. It was thus a joint Sino-Tibetan force that in 649, probably by way of the Chumbi pass between Sikkim and Nepal, crossed the Great Himalaya and inflicted heavy defeat on Harsha’s successors. ‘Thereupon’, says the standard Tang history, ‘India was overawed.’

    Elsewhere it is recorded that Wang Xuance brought back as prisoner to Chang’an the man who had supposedly usurped Harsha’s throne. A statue of ‘this contumacious Indian’ was erected among the many in front of Tang Taizong’s tomb and ‘so [the Indian] found lasting fame—but as a trophy and an emblem’. Needless to say, Indian tradition is blissfully ignorant of all this. The Sino-Tibetan incursion probably affected only a corner of Bengal and had no known repercussions. Though a Chinese assault on Indian territory had been shown to be feasible, it would not be repeated until the 1960s

    China; a history by John Keay

    In short, its pretty historical for Indians to overreact to Chinese efforts at whatever, turn to violence and then cry foul when they get promptly overwhelmed. Its a bit annoying.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Grahamsno(G64)
  365. Daniel,

    You’re full of shit I did try to engage Chinese nationalists seriously but you guys are at the LOL WTF mentality, no serious talk about a third of humanity engaged in a bitter quarrel, no talk about how your statesmen consider that pissing on a billion people with nukes is better than engaging them. Nothing but LOL WTF from you. I’m sorry to expend so much energy trying to get something from you and the other Chinese nationalists but I get nothing better than LOL WTF. It’s telling that none of you Chinese nationalists answered the fundamental question – What foreign policy/economic/geopolitical advantage does China gain by pissing off a billion people with Nukes(Indians). Can Denk.DBC,Jason Liu, et al answer this, that was the gist of my drunken rants Please answer it. Don’t you think that this question should be asked, and the way China acts it seems that the question has been answered.

  366. DB Cooper says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    I hate you people because your shithole country invaded and land grabbed China (South Tibet and Ladkha) during a time of its weakness. You people should understand colonialism because you were at the receiving end of it for two hundred years and when the British left you act just like the British to your neighbors. This is why all your smaller neighbors hate and resent India. Understand you filthy rapey ugly stinky creepy lazy dumb as a rock 76 IQ half evolved Hindoo monkey? By the way the Dalai Lama has said openly many times that Indians are lazy. So I am just quoting His Holiness that Indians are lazy. Now have a cup of cow piss and go fuck yourself you piece of filth. Here is a selected list of the land grab by the shithole:
    1947 Annexation of Kashmir:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/06/indias-shame/
    http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/kashmirs-young-rebels/
    1949 Annexation of Manipur:
    http://www.tehelka.com/manipurs-merger-with-india-was-a-forced-annexation/
    http://www.passblue.com/2017/09/05/in-lush-manipur-women-work-for-peace-as-militarization-marches-on/
    1949 Annexation of Tripura:
    http://www.crescent-online.net/2009/09/the-myths-of-one-nation-and-one-hinduism-in-india-zawahir-siddique-2316-articles.html
    1951 Annexation of South Tibet:
    http://kanglaonline.com/2011/06/khathing-the-taking-of-tawang/
    http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article2582.html
    http://chasfreeman.net/india-pakistan-and-china/
    1954 Annexation of Nagaland:
    http://morungexpress.com/desire-nagas-live-separate-nation-deserved/
    http://nagalandmusings.blogspot.com/2013/01/indias-untold-genocide-of-nagas.html
    1954 Attempt annexation of Sikkim and Bhutan (Failed):
    http://redbarricade.blogspot.hk/2013/01/twisted-truth.html
    1961 Annexation of Goa:
    http://www.ruleoflaw.org.au/the-annexation-of-goa/
    http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/goa-falls-indian-troops
    http://goa-invasion-1961.blogspot.in/2013/09/india-pirated-goa-china-is-regaining_16.html
    1962 Annexation of Kalapani, Nepal:
    http://www.eurasiareview.com/07032012-indian-hegemony-in-nepal-oped/
    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1239348
    http://www.sharnoffsglobalviews.com/land-disputes-116/
    1962 Aggression against China:
    http://gregoryclark.net/redif.html
    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame
    1971 Annexation of Turtuk, Pakistan:
    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/suddenly-indian
    1972 Annexation of Tin Bigha, Bangladesh:
    http://www.dhakatribune.com/op-ed/2014/feb/20/killing-fields
    1975 Annexation of Sikkim (the whole country):
    http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
    http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/

    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html
    1983 (Aborted) Attempted invasion of Mauritius:
    http://thediplomat.com/2013/03/when-india-almost-invaded-mauritius/
    1984 Annexation of Ladakh
    https://dailytimes.com.pk/452178/china-and-indian-annexation-of-kashmir-ladakh/
    1987 Invasion of Sri Lanka
    http://www.asiantribune.com/node/63316
    1990 (Failed) First Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html
    2006 Annexation of Duars, Bhutan:
    http://wangchasangey.blogspot.com/2015/11/different-kind-of-anxieties-on.html#comment-form
    2013 Annexation of Moreh, Myanmar:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nehginpao-kipgen/easing-indiamyanmar-borde_b_4633040.html
    2017 Aggression against China:
    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/07/06/sikkim-stand-off-china-india-collide-himalayas/
    http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2102555/indias-china-war-round-two
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/11/china-india-standoff-modi-has-bitten-off-more-than-he-can-chew/
    2017 (Failed) Second Attempted annexation of Bhutan:
    http://wangchasangey.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-strategy-behind-india-doklam.html
    http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2106709/india-must-find-face-saving-pretext-and-withdraw-doklam
    2018 (Thwarted) Attempt invasion of the Maldives
    https://www.ft.com/content/332a5b1a-1155-11e8-8cb6-b9ccc4c4dbbb
    https://thewire.in/223916/keep-off-maldives-yameen-government-tells-indian-military/?utm_source=alsoread
    2020 Annexation of Limpiyadhura, Kalapani and Lipulekh, Nepal
    https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/nepal-confronts-india-in-lipulekh-border-dispute/

  367. Meena says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Blaming China for engineering corona virus originated in India in Jan -Feb from prestigious institute

    and licked up by Zerohedge .

    They still blame

  368. DB Cooper says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Oppressed people don’t burn or multilated or kill themselves. This is why you will never see the Untouchables, Palestinians and people who are truly oppressed burn themselves. Brainwashed people do.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  369. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    If killing themselves to protest is a behavior of the oppressed people you would see Blacks kill themselves in droves during slavery and Jim Crow era when lynching was a public spectator event. Oppressed people don’t kill themselves. Brainwashed people do.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  370. Ano4 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    and a Brahminical reaction had set in against the Buddhist community.

    This is what I was referring to in comment #303.

    Any time Indian Civilization makes a step forward to harmony and peace, Hinduism and its Varna system bring chaos back.

    Buddhism contributed so much to Indian culture, and yet Brahmin ensured that it would go extinct in India proper only to be revived in modern times.

    What was the crime of Buddhadharma in the eyes of the Hinduists?

    Simply the rejection of caste and tribal chaos imposed upon the Hindustani multitudes by Hindu religion.

    Hinduism is what is holding India back and current Indian nationalist government reliance on more Hinduism in a more extreme form of Hindutva to build a uniform civilization is not a positive sign for the future evolution of Indian nation.

    Traditional Hinduism is not fit for nation building, the Bharats should use something else: Sikhism maybe, or even better a modernized fusion between Buddhadharma and Advaita.

    • Agree: Menes
    • Replies: @Meena
    , @Daniel Chieh
    , @Menes
  371. @Daniel Chieh

    Really,

    Harsha-vardhana, when the Buddhist cultural exchange was full on, Your ‘Journey to the West’ is a product of that cultural exchange completely peaceful and mutually enlightening I fail to understand how such a benign example can justify your dicking around south of the Himalayas now, it will end badly for you dicking round south of the Himalayas.

    If you’re hell bent on putting your dick into the meat grinder of Sub-Con politics go ahead I warned you, a billion people with nukes should focus the minds of your foreign policy framers. I’m just asking your people to leave my people alone is that too much? You guys are going out of the way to provoke our enemity.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  372. Meena says:

    Modi did to Indian state controlled asset and economy what Yeltsin did to Russia . It enriched thugs in the name of religion and cloak of market economy just like Yeltsin era enriched the apatride who fled to Israel.

  373. Meena says:
    @Ano4

    “ and a Brahminical reaction had set in against the Buddhist community.”
    That’s what happened to Nepal . Fleeing Hindu Royals from Muslim displacement of thrones settled and occupied Nepal. Grew in power and slowly extinguished Buddhism .But those converted ended up as menial laborers, land less farmer, bonded labor and became “ Hindu” hated by Royal and by Indian Hindu.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  374. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Your troops could potentially make the effort to avoid making night attacks inside Chinese territory.

    Though please don’t, I have to admit, these hand-to-hand melees are pretty chad and cool. Could you bring bodybuilders next time? The Bronze Age revolution can’t come too soon.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    , @lin
  375. @Daniel Chieh

    Sure Daniel,

    A LOL WTF response to a profound geopolitical problem involving a third of humanity – do your French Anthropologists and body builder shtick – why can’t you answer my question a simple one, is it profitable for China to pick up a quarrel with the worlds largest chaotic anarchic democracy , one that generates a 70 billion surplus for you, you sell we buy we’re one of your biggest markets, the relationship was working splendidly till you started dicking around, shouldn’t this question be asked in your foreign policy circles, cultivate the hatred of a nuclear armed democracy of a billion people, for what and What is the plus side of the equation of having a gigantic Himalayan sized problem on the south.

    Simple and clear – what’s the positive side of going out of your way to create an enemy of India, Shouldn’t this question be asked at the highest level, imagine it was otherwise no problems and peace across Asia, since it isn’t I ask you once again where is the cost/benefit analysis of pissing us off. Your foreign policy (ultimate historical statesmen) or are you such dumb fucks that you didn’t give it a thought. Stick to your anthropology I thought that I could have a conversation but LOL WTF, Denk and DBC have all disappeared when the going got thoughtful. Answer my question and I have spent a lot of time and energy breaking down the great hatred.

    If you give me a LOL WTF answer you aren’t credible, full of shit like the other Chinese Nationalists who ran away from this thread. I stand my ground.

  376. lin says:

    Here’s an interesting story on migrants in ancient china:
    https://www.gingkoedizioni.it/a-roman-legion-lost-in-china-2/
    Marcus Licinius Crassus, the roman tribune who defeated Spactacus was later crushed by the Persians…
    ” He was killed and his head was also cut off. 20,000 Romans died that day; 10,000 were taken prisoner, and the remainder managed to escape back to Italy…”
    Dubs had found that in the annals of the Han dynasty there is record of the capture of a Hun city by the Chinese army in 36 BC named Zhizhi, now known as Dzhambul, located close to Tashkent, in Uzbekistan. Dubs was deeply impressed by the fact that the Chinese recorded the discovery of palisades of tree trunks, and that the enemy had used a previously unseen battle formation, namely a testudo of selected warriors forming a cover of overlapping shields in front of their bodies in the first row and over the heads in the following rows. [2]

    The Roman Textudo
    “…The Chinese were so struck by the military skills of the opposing warriors that they moved them, after enlisting, further East, to a place that by imperial decree was named Li-Jien (which sounds in Chinese as the word “legion” and is the name the Chinese called Rome) in Gansu province…During excavations in 1993 fortifications were unearthed, as well as a type of trunk fixed with stakes, possibly dating back to the time of the arrival of the legionnaires. The ‘trunk’ was a kind of hoist used by the Romans to build fortifications but unknown in China. It is now on display in the Lanzhou Museum…”
    “….Roman coins and pottery have also been unearthed in Zhelaizhai, as well as a helmet bearing the engraving in Chinese characters: One of the Prisoners. However, Zhelaizhai is located along the Silk Road, where such discoveries are found frequently. Similar artefacts have been found in distant places such as Vietnam and Korea…”

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Ano4
  377. Jatt Arya says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    If it’s true we should oppose it, Sikhi supports JaatiPratha (tribal endogamy) but none of this other stuff||

    Technically, I’ve heard pre Islamic Hinduism is the same with social mobility in the form of the Army.
    At this point, there’s no point discussing Dharma unless it’s Sikhi. :shrug:

    Stop cow slaughter.

    [MORE]

    View this post on Instagram

    During a hunting expedition outside of the village of Ramdas, Guru Hargobind Sahib was approached by a local Hindu who was requesting help to stop a group of Muslims butchering cows: ⁣ ⁣ ਪੁਨ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ਬਤਾਇਸਿ ਬਾਤਿ । "ਨਿਕਟ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਗੋ ਕਰਤੇ ਘਾਤਿ । ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਬਸ ਨਹਿ ਆਵਤਿ ਸੋਈ । ਕਤਰਿ ਓਜ ਕੋ ਮੈਂ ਤਹਿ ਜੋਈ" ।੩।⁣ After [saluting Guru Hargobind] he clasped his hands and began to say, "There are vile people close to here butchering cows and they are trying to get hold of more cows with great effort.⁣ ⁣ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੋ ਆਗੇ ਕਰ੍ਯੋ । ਹਯ ਧਵਾਇ ਚਾਲੇ ਰਿਸਿ ਧਰ੍ਯੋ । ਹੁਤੇ ਨਿਕਟ ਹੀ ਜਾਇ ਨਿਹਾਰੇ । ਖੜਗ ਨਿਕਾਸ੍ਯੋ ਤਤਛਿਨ ਮਾਰੇ ।੪।⁣ Listening to this Satiguru Hargobind mounted his horse and proceeded ahead with great anger, seeing where they were they closed the distance, taking out his sword he quickly slaughtered them. ⁣ ⁣ ਭਾਜ ਚਲੇ ਕੁਛ ਘੇਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਾਰੇ । ਖੰਡ ਖੰਡ ਕਰਿ ਧਰ ਪਰ ਡਾਰੈ ।⁣ Some of them ran away, but they were flanked, surrounded and attacked, they were chopped down and then into pieces. ⁣ ⁣ ⁣ Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth (1843), Raas 6, Chapter 55 ⁣ Author: the Great Poet [Mahakavi] Santokh Singh ⁣ ⁣ Guru Gobind Singh Ji carried the tradition laid out by his grandfather for the protection of cows. He writes in Ugardanthi, asking Devi to bless Him with the strength to:⁣ ⁣ ਗਊ ਘਾਤ ਕਾ ਦੋਖ ਜਗ ਸਿਉਂ ਮਿਟਾਊ ।⁣ [May I] eliminate the great sin of cow butchering in this world. ⁣ ⁣ Ugardanthi, Chakka 5

    A post shared by Manglacharan (@manglacharan) on

    • Replies: @KA
  378. @Grahamsno(G64)

    What part of stop attacking Chinese troops in Chinese territory is hard to understand?

  379. Ano4 says:
    @Meena

    Fleeing Hindu Royals from Muslim displacement of thrones settled and occupied Nepal.

    My personal opinion is that Islamic conquest everywhere was made possible by the weakening of the cultural tissue and the state of the conquered people.

    In Indian subcontinent the relative ease of conquest was probably a consequence of the chaotic state of the cultural tissue due to the Tantrism propagating and weakening the Buddhist Indian civilization.

    Tantrism is of course a lefthand path of the Hinduist tradition.

    So one could say that this extreme form of Hinduism made the Islamic conquest easier.

    • Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy
  380. Cheers Daniel,

    You haven’t answered the question what part of

    Don’t fuck with a billion strong democracy with nukes south of the Himalayas don’t you understand, we don’t fuck with you so don’t fuck with us I’m screaming out aloud. This’s not your traditional stomping ground it’s ours please don’t do it.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AnonFromTN
  381. Znzn says:
    @lin

    It’s testudo, not textudo.

  382. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Fascinating example of logic where physical attacks are not fucking with the Chinese. Cry out in pain when you attack some more, as they say.

    I’m done here. Ta.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  383. Ano4 says:
    @lin

    The ancient contacts and exchanges between the Chinese and their Iranian and European neighbors to the west were manifold. They are best demonstrated through the wall paintings found in the remains of Buddhist and Manichaean temples and monasteries found along the Silk Road.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/q6dPqx68RkxiKffY7

    The Chinese and Western Eurasian populations have never really been isolated from one another since probably the neolithic times. Interestingly enough, one of the ancient cultures that has been incorporated into the early Han ethnic buildup in the modern Gansu province, Majiayao culture of the early bronze age, might have had Western roots as attested by its artefacts and the higher Y haplogroup R1a prevalence of the modern Han Chinese population in the North Western China.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/y3pKunGBVBUTQ2k5A

  384. @Grahamsno(G64)

    billion strong democracy

    Is this sarcasm? If so, it’s good.

  385. KA says:
    @Jatt Arya

    Never trust US. Trying a score a sneak steal , India crossed and was pushed back with a bloody nose and less land .
    What US is doing ? Australia Japan ? May be they will offer sincere support next time . Hope Modi is around to smell the tea .
    Wake up. Don’t allow foreign interest or need for cheap domestic partisan gain ruin the country .
    By the way,those pictures are good. But the legend? It’s like supporting archeology based on Old Testament . Then you get three things wrong- history, archeology and the message from the allegory in the sacred book .

  386. Jatt Arya says:
    @KA

    Don’t insult the Guru.

    @Ano4

    Sikhism maybe, or even better a modernized fusion between Buddhadharma and Advaita.

    You suggested the same thing twice, essentially.
    Effortpost Inc.

    Ie a non-Dualist universalist Sangha.
    The problem with Buddhism was as previously suggested the overt focus on Shramanic practice and purity. Many untouchable tribes became so due to a Buddhist disinclination toward meat & alcohol.

    Buddhists helped Bin Qasim invade Sindh in order to save their life||
    For all the flaws of Hinduism the parts of India which are majority Muslim today:

    Indonesia, Afghanistan, Xinjiang (Uttar Kuru), Tajiks, Bengalis & Panjab/Sindh/Kashmir were all majority Buddhist.

    Brahmins became vegetarian to out virtue signal Buddhists.
    https://reawakening2074.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-ruins-of-lost-world-bengals.html

    The incentive for many elites to become Buddhist was to cease support of Hindu temples which by then had become schools, hospitals, banks etc.

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/early-temples-and-iconic-worship/

    Temples & mass idol worship may have been a Greek introduction.

    View this post on Instagram

    ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥ ⁣ ਪੁਨੰ ਸੰਗ ਸਾਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਯੌ ਸੁਨਾਈ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ ਰਹੋ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਾਈ । ⁣ Then amongst everyone the Master [Guru Gobind Singh] proclaimed; "Brothers, without a sword and arrows do not remain in my presence. ⁣ ⁣ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਰੰ ਭੇਡ ਜਾਨੋ । ਗਹੇ ਕਾਂਨ ਤਾਕੌ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੈ ਸਿਧਾਨੋ ।੯੮।⁣ Without long hair [kesh] and weapons a man is a sheep, grabbed by their ear they can be dragged anywhere.⁣ ⁣ ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ ।⁣ This is my command listen my beloved ones, without a sword or long hair [kesh] do not come to see me. ⁣ ⁣ ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਬੈਨੰ ਮਨੈਗਾ ਸੁ ਜੋਈ । ਤਿਸੈ ਇਛ ਪੂਰੰ ਸਭੈ ਜਾਂਨ ਹੋਈ ।੯੯।⁣ Whoever follows these words of mine will have all of their desires fulfilled and will become all-knowing!" ⁣ ⁣ ⁣ Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvi (1797), author: Sukha Singh ⁣ Chapter 23⁣ ਗੁਰਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਹੀ ਦਸਵੀਂ (੧੭੯੭), ਕ੍ਰਿਤ: ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ⁣ ਅਧਿਆਇ ੨੩⁣ ⁣ Note: Here the use of ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ is suggestive of not only those specific weapons but more broadly bladed weapons (shastar), and projectile weapons (astar) like arrows but also pistols and rifles.

    A post shared by Manglacharan (@manglacharan) on

    Grindin up cannabis, LOL!

  387. Jatt Arya says:
    @KA

    Don’t insult the Guru.

    @Ano4

    Sikhism maybe, or even better a modernized fusion between Buddhadharma and Advaita.

    You suggested the same thing twice, essentially.
    Bhakti Marg (movement) look it up.
    Effortpost Inc.

    Understanding ancient caste as like a guild makes more sense:

    Ie a non-Dualist universalist Sangha.
    The problem with Buddhism was as previously suggested the overt focus on Shramanic practice and purity. Many untouchable tribes became so due to a Buddhist disinclination toward meat & alcohol.

    Buddhists helped Bin Qasim invade Sindh in order to save their life||
    For all the flaws of Hinduism the parts of India which are majority Muslim today:

    Indonesia, Afghanistan, Xinjiang (Uttar Kuru), Tajiks, Bengalis & Panjab/Sindh/Kashmir were all majority Buddhist.

    Brahmins became vegetarian to out virtue signal Buddhists.
    https://reawakening2074.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-ruins-of-lost-world-bengals.html

    The incentive for many elites to become Buddhist was to cease support of Hindu temples which by then had become schools, hospitals, banks etc.

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/early-temples-and-iconic-worship/

    Temples & mass idol worship may have been a Greek introduction.

    View this post on Instagram

    ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥ ⁣ ਪੁਨੰ ਸੰਗ ਸਾਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਯੌ ਸੁਨਾਈ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ ਰਹੋ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਾਈ । ⁣ Then amongst everyone the Master [Guru Gobind Singh] proclaimed; "Brothers, without a sword and arrows do not remain in my presence. ⁣ ⁣ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਰੰ ਭੇਡ ਜਾਨੋ । ਗਹੇ ਕਾਂਨ ਤਾਕੌ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੈ ਸਿਧਾਨੋ ।੯੮।⁣ Without long hair [kesh] and weapons a man is a sheep, grabbed by their ear they can be dragged anywhere.⁣ ⁣ ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ । ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ ।⁣ This is my command listen my beloved ones, without a sword or long hair [kesh] do not come to see me. ⁣ ⁣ ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਬੈਨੰ ਮਨੈਗਾ ਸੁ ਜੋਈ । ਤਿਸੈ ਇਛ ਪੂਰੰ ਸਭੈ ਜਾਂਨ ਹੋਈ ।੯੯।⁣ Whoever follows these words of mine will have all of their desires fulfilled and will become all-knowing!" ⁣ ⁣ ⁣ Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvi (1797), author: Sukha Singh ⁣ Chapter 23⁣ ਗੁਰਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਹੀ ਦਸਵੀਂ (੧੭੯੭), ਕ੍ਰਿਤ: ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ⁣ ਅਧਿਆਇ ੨੩⁣ ⁣ Note: Here the use of ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ is suggestive of not only those specific weapons but more broadly bladed weapons (shastar), and projectile weapons (astar) like arrows but also pistols and rifles.

    A post shared by Manglacharan (@manglacharan) on

    Grindin up cannabis, LOL!
    Gun control anti-Sikh.

    Bhakti Marg centered around Naam Jap, Sachi Kirat & Vannd Ke Shakkna

    Devotional Meditation, Honest Labour & Sharing of wealth (food)

    The Hindu Liberal state has consistently suppressed Bhakti which is lay Hinduism in the North.
    Mughals did it beforehand, the only major Bhakti Panth (sect or path) to survive was Sikhi, due to being Shastar-Dhari (weapons bearing)

    The reason reform needs to be institutionally internal is because foreigners often miss important details.

    We need Khalsa Raj!

    For example, many well intentioned Brits were confused by the slow de-martialization of Sikhi following annexation. They thought it was due to Hindu influence and attempting to purge Hindu influence resulted in even worse SJWs.

    In actuality, banning Nihangs from Panjab and their general replacement by Nirmalas (Brahmin-like Sanskrit learning subsect of Sikh) was the reason. The Brit allies (if they were genuine) had no control over this policy and rejecting the Puranic warrior ethos which is part of Sikhi only led to more negativity.

    Endians shouldn’t be ashamed of their history as it’s only in the Kali Yuga that this Brahminical Kesh-killing stuff came in||

    Vedic Dharma is Kshatriya dominated. All the Gods are warriors,

    Modern Hindus are melechas:

    Kalpadruma gives the meaning of Mlechcha as one whose diction is unfit for Sanskrit, one who kills Dharma, one who shaves or cuts the hair in his head and beard, but keeps a long mustache, etc (#Sikh will find this interesting), and so on.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Parikramah/status/1017115753768800256
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Parikramah/status/885581828362567680

    • Replies: @Ano4
  388. Jatt Arya says:

    Wtf. please delete both these comments I inserted multiple more tags and I guess this breaks the system.

    I’ll re-submit with just one after that’s done.

  389. @china-russia-all-the-way

    India, indeed the sub continent, as an oil importer is about to boom relative to oil exporters and countries like China, the US and UK with significant oil production. The EU, Japan and Turkey will also boom but not quite as much due to demographics.

    I remember Janata Sangh. I had been hired as the man on the spot to set up a joint venture to make bellows (pipework components) for the Indian nuclear industry. Janata Sangh won and swept away all the corrupt Congress officials who had arranged the Joint Venture. JS placemen wanted their own signature fees. Our managing director was not ready to supply another Jaguar car or two to India so the project was cancelled. I think Janata Sangh had bad luck with timing. They not only ended The Emergency, they wanted to end the licence Raj but the oil crisis stopped chances of growth. They made Congress look good. Also they were too loose a coalition. So now we have the BJP as a more extreme version. Pity.

    • Replies: @Meena
  390. lin says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I would like to point out a few pieces of infos people might not be familiar with:

    (Let me repeat what I said before:The Chinese army has recruiting problem because young people want to go to college; now the army wants to recruit college grads. The average non-officer grunts only serve 2 yrs. Robotics, drones are the new focus)
    –The indian system is more ‘professional’ or careerist and the overwhelming % of grunts serve until the mandatory retirement age for 2 reasons:1)Traditionally, soldiering is the job of the martial castes 2)Very serious unemployment problem and the indian civil services and the military are major institutions that offer secure jobs(with pension)

    According to P.116 of the indian govt docu linked below, 5.5 million indians applied for military jobs and only 1.4 millions + ‘para-military’ of 1.3 millions) It means once a young indian of poorer background got in, it’ll be the career of his life.

    “Indian Army is one of the biggest recruiters in the country which recruits almost 60,000 youths into the Army each year. ………and approximately 55 lakh(5.5 millions) aspirants have applied online through the directorate of Recruiting website” http://www.joinindianarmy.nic.in.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwjQx66htpvnAhWbQN4KHa1ABH0QFjABegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmod.gov.in%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FAR1718.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3i0is2udyCMYg3Hmwvy26E
    –I browse a number of hindu nationalist sites and there’s much war fever recently. Some want to nuke Chinese cities. The reality is
    **Indian capital New Delhi is only 300-350 km from Chinese border and within the range of Chinese mult-barrel rockets while the more developed Chinese cities are 2500-3000 km away. The 2 indian states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, just south of the Himalaya have a combined population of 366 millions.
    **They didn’t mention the Assam ‘chicken neck’, haha
    …………..
    Should a war unfortunately broke out,one can expect a rocket blitzkrieg on indian military installations south of the border
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/sy-400.htm
    https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1168920.shtml

  391. @Grahamsno(G64)

    I value your attempt to have a real conversation and I agree the other commentators range from embarrassingly childish to thin on any strategic thinking and knowledge of India. If you can respond to my previous posts in detail I will also give you the coherent response you are looking for.

  392. RSDB says:

    I think India and China should settle their differences through a fistfight between the Indian and Chinese sections of AK’s comment boards.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  393. Ano4 says:
    @Jatt Arya

    The problem with Buddhism was as previously suggested the overt focus on Shramanic practice and purity.

    You are right, this is indeed a problem with Theravada buddhism. But there was also Mahayana.

    Buddhists helped Bin Qasim invade Sindh in order to save their life

    This is not true, but Buddhist communities received a better treatment on the part of the Muslim conquerors because they were seen as more reliable and more peaceful. In fact, despite not being People of the Book they received a protected status.

    For all the flaws of Hinduism the parts of India which are majority Muslim today: Indonesia, Afghanistan, Xinjiang (Uttar Kuru), Tajiks, Bengalis & Panjab/Sindh/Kashmir were all majority Buddhist.

    This is right. But they were conquered under very diverse circumstances at very different times.

    Brahmins became vegetarian to out virtue signal Buddhists.

    Didn’t know this, although it makes sense.

    The incentive for many elites to become Buddhist was to cease support of Hindu temples which by then had become schools, hospitals, banks etc.

    This was also one of the incentives to convert to Islam. Tax-burden reduction played a very important role in the spread of Islamic society.

    Vedic Dharma is Kshatriya dominated. All the Gods are warriors,

    True.

    Modern Hindus are melechas

    Didn’t expect that one.

    LOL.

    And thanks for the awesome pics.

  394. antibeast says:
    @Google

    Methinks this troll “Grahamsno(G64)” is obviously trying to rationalize this latest aggression against China by India’s Modi to please his White masters in the West. To him, anyone who believes in Chinese righteousness in the face of Indian aggression must be Chinese nationalists, notwithstanding all the posts here on the state of Indian hygiene or lack thereof which might be construed as “racist” towards Indians.

    To be fair, India does not have its good points — Indians excel in English-speaking white-collar professions such as Law, Medicine, Politics, Software — but that’s also the reason why India is trapped by its colonial past because the idea of “India” itself is the creation of the British Raj. You see this Indian version of “colonial mentality” from the time of India’s founding by the Gandhi-Nehru Dynasties all the way to Modi’s India of today. This colonial past haunts Indians up to this day so much so that Modi’s India wants to redefine Hindu nationalism by wallowing in all these anti-Chinese antics and Indian chest-thumping which proves nothing but a desire to seek approval from the West.

    There is no question that China has long ago surpassed India — in military, political, economic and technological terms. But that has made their inferiority complex even more insufferable which is the same phenomenon that afflicts White Americans albeit in reverse — their superiority complex makes them envious with hate. Metaphysically, Modi’s Hindu nationalism is similar to Trump’s “America First” populism, feel-good chest-thumping driven by China envy and anti-Chinese hate. Both suffer from what I’d call the “China Syndrome”.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  395. dux.ie says:

    NATO has invaded Russia, err, rather the SARSCoV2 Clade 20B NATOFlu which is common in NATO countries together with the Clade 20A LombardFlu which is common in Mediteranian countries. There are little signs of the presence of the Clade 19A WuFlu and Clade 19B APECFlu in Russia. Rather than the Chinese, what are the French doing in CongoDR??

    More detail in https://www.unz.com/jthompson/virtuous-reality?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=4ffbd122c11dc0fe8cf2e0825db032355c72ccc6-1592612236-0-ZVGBHiJiliuhZ2Rsio2UZSm6y9k8i3G6onuFeRl4SEdSaFNvAZ6JsNpVm-0c0Ly9WYTxX0fn5TZzjqEwAP0IohW63J9qY1PJ1L_Mk9zxBwEGCAYW9XHX8GdCtw6BL7IdYYqo1X2sjSVdVQr-_xLM6iVO7-SgLTdsDS6yipbyL_CIfw_67oeAy5RUm60lgjR4z0BKnpuheIvKb55-g1Ibmq_XYPBnf-R-T1aLu-Bew6rw4pItgoCoZky4eB_py7sDzNi-H6Ivqc3O1X0QBKHX7TdhWJmYWNPhkaUoCDnyLbWCODCH6jH6_8MirCPQ4A#comment-3976923

  396. Meena says:
    @Philip Owen

    About to boom “
    We just heard Modi boom . Now Facebook and What’s app are asking everybody to amplify the sound .

    Stay in the echo chamber .

  397. Menes says:
    @Ano4

    Hinduism is what is holding India back………Traditional Hinduism is not fit for nation building

    Its more accurate to say that the Brahmins are holding India back. And that Brahminism is not fit for nation-building. Proof of that is evident from the miserable record of Brahmin rule in India since 1947. Especially from the states in which the brahmins are most numerous, which are the poorest, filthiest and most backward states of poor, backward India.

    Hindus should turn their backs on the religion and casteism of the invaders of India and fully embrace the true spirituality of their ancestral religion Shramanism. Which survives as Buddhism, Jainism, Yoga, Advaita etc.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Meena
  398. @Ano4

    This must be the first time in its history where poor indians have had acess to high tech goods kitchen appliances smart phones etc its all because of the chinese, so you gotta thank the chinese thats made lives much much easier for poor indians if this were to vanish tomorrow your economys gonna get a big setback because there is no way you can make what china sells to you , sure you could it buy it from the west but you will pay through the nose, while for china the loss will be worth it if it can stop indians building their roads in ladakh.

  399. @Grahamsno(G64)

    It was no blunder by the chinese modi miscalculated by sendiang a force of over 100 soldiers to finger four that china claims as its own, modi must have figured once he established his troops at that post he could thump his 56″ chest to the uneducated indians and say he had taken back indian land , but the chinese knew waht snakes indians are and were prepared for something like this and came out swinging, there are probably hundreds of indian deaths compared few for thechinese and not the 43 that your media is blasting on your english news cahannels Times now were even putting names to chinese caualties lol from their “sources” the chinese has said nothing about casualties.

    • Replies: @Google
  400. Meena says:

    This is what goes as analysis,diplomacy and also affirmation of righteous entitlement of India from its neighbors .

    “Beijing has reached out to Dhaka by offering to waive off 97% tariff on 5,161 items that Bangladesh trades with China. 



Dhaka had asked for the waiver from China for being a “less  developed country  
Beijing responded favourably on June 16, ironically a day after clash with India . 


The development, which could lead to Bejing and Dhaka coming  closer .. can add to the discomfort of Delhi which sees Bangladesh as  an strong ally .. 


    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/76475086.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

  401. @d dan

    How is protecting Taiwan any “reward” to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?

    We were pondering the possibilities for the American Empire, to stop and perhaps destroy the up and coming rival superpower.

    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.

    I don’t think anyone could tell with a high degree of certainty, not even Chinese or American war planners. And there’s always the risk of the defeated enemy going nuclear.

    But my point was not that China would be militarily defeated in the Taiwan Strait, my point was that accepting an American guarantee for Taiwan would in itself be a humiliating defeat, and that China would be forced to choose between that humiliation or starting a world war.

    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell.

    I would say the likely outcome would be China starting a war, but given the super high stakes, they might tremble in their shoes.

    But my point was not that China would hesitate to start a war. My point was to highlight (from an American point of view) the risks inherent in utu’s proposal. His proposal would carry an enormously high risk of a world war.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    , @d dan
  402. @KA

    After the comments here. I got curious. Read a lot on this. This skirmish was 100% on India.

    If China backs down, India will push further. Should prepare for a fast limited war.

    I don’t understand why India is doing this? Was this something India had to do to join the American club? Is India giving up in competing with China? As these type of actions are the last resort when one has given up.

  403. @reiner Tor

    Um, there is no choice in that case. It is war. In the scenario = 1000% war. This is 2020 China, not 1949 China.

    The better question is do you think USA is willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan?

    Easy answer right?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  404. @RSDB

    Shit, if only it was that easy. Lol.

  405. @Daniel Chieh

    I asked an intellectually serious question, what’s the benefit of pissing off a billion Hindus with nukes?
    Surely this question must have been asked, if it hasn’t been then your foreign policy is a disaster since that’s what you’re doing now. It’s absolutely telling that the usual suspects (DBC,Denk etc) vanished from this thread when a serious question was asked, it involves a third of humanity, no greater foreign policy question can be asked. No Chinese nationalists on this thread answered this which means that they didn’t think about it, LOL WTF was their response, LOL WTF you got a Himalayan sized prostrate problem down south deal with it.

  406. @Daniel Chieh

    Though I doubt that the Chinese leadership in 1979 set out with the goal of forcing Vietnam to abandon Cambodia twelve years later. I think it’s more likely that they simply tried to signal that there would be a cost to invading Chinese allies, so that in the future Vietnam (or other similar countries) would be deterred from doing so. It must be noted that neither side committed all or even most forces available (Vietnam held its regular divisions in reserve, and instead fought mostly with border militias, while China didn’t commit its air force and explicitly promised and held the promise to keep the war limited), but in general it was felt by most international observers that Vietnam outperformed the PLA.

    However it was, it is thought to have been a major impetus for improving the quality of the military and the economy in China, as it was felt that they were not quite up to the task of punishing even a minor power like Vietnam.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  407. @antibeast

    Methinks this troll “Grahamsno(G64)”

    Call me anything but a Troll, I’ve expended a lot of intellectual energy articulating my thoughts to the Chinese Nationalists and haven’t got a serious response from them. They’re the LOL WTF, French anthropologists, clowns. They won’t answer the question I asked them.

    The question is what benefit it is to China to cultivate the enemity of a billion Hindus armed with nukes, surely this question must have been asked at the highest level.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  408. The shit has hit the fan Chinese nationalists you’re persona non grata in the west

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/us-research-scientists-under-fire-for-ties-to-china/

    Investigators singled out “399 ‘scientists of possible concern’ and found that 133 had an ‘undisclosed grant’ from a foreign government and 102 had an ‘undisclosed [Thousand] Talents award.’”

    According to Judicial Watch, most of the targets of the NIH probe “were Asian men in their 50s.”

    See it is not just an Indian problem.

  409. @Grahamsno(G64)

    It is strange you even asked that question though. Because the Chinese can ask the exact question back at you.

    Is it wise to piss off a billion Chinese? Who right now have more money and better military than you? Hell even better nukes?

    See, it works both ways. Always think it through.

  410. d dan says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    “It is strange you even asked that question though. Because the Chinese can ask the exact question back at you.”

    He is stupid enough he can’t see the circularity of his question.
    He is biased enough he can’t imagine that it could be India that is pushing China.
    He is arrogant enough he feels entitled to dictate the topic of the debate.
    He is self-righteous enough to believe Indian position is not negotiable.
    He is rude enough to use insults to demand responses.

    And finally, without any sense of irony, he feels incredulous that no serious persons want to engage with him.

  411. @Astuteobservor II

    We are not arming Taiwan, China’s a superpower and we aren’t just don’t make life miserable for us by financing our enemies, the Chinese foreign policy(they have not thought about making a billion Hindus enemies) seems to be just trolling, that’s what it is just trolling us, lot of fun for them but not for us, if you seriously want us as enemies think about it, is it worth it, at some point trolling will get serious responses.

    The US trolled Russia by expanding NATO as if they were willing to sacrifice Riga for New York and Putin called their bluff by seizing Crimea, Trolling as foreign policy has consequences. That’s what the Chinese are doing to us Trolling, they don’t have the faintest clue about the Vicious Sub-con politics and they will find out about it the hard way, did you know that dozens of Chinese engineers have been murdered in Balochistan Pakistan which is their client state. I’m advising them to not go out of their way piss us Hindus (a laid back corrupt people) off, what gain is there in it? The west is going to be shut down for the Chinese, does it make any sense to piss off their next biggest market?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  412. @reiner Tor

    Chinese policy was to force Vietnam to back off immediately and at that, they failed immensely. The war in 1979 was pretty much a Chinese defeat; the generals claimed that they achieved their objectives but if so, it was really at intolerable and unsustainable losses.

    Its the subsequent, dragged out extension of the war that China pretty much prevailed in(1979-1991). It was indeed an impetus for improvement, but arguably also the demonstration that China does much better when it can force its foe into a long and indecisive “low-scale” war because the sheer difference in industrial heft allowed China to essentially continue to operate as a normal country trading, building, etc while Vietnam had to invest a huge amount of money to keep up mobilization.

    It worked, but it also has since gained China the reputation of a bully by many Vietnamese, as that specific form of nondecisive meat/material grinding strategy leveraged against smaller economies is somehow more dishonorable in some eyes.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  413. d dan says:
    @reiner Tor

    “We were pondering the possibilities for the American Empire, to stop and perhaps destroy the up and coming rival superpower.”

    It is very odd (and convenient) for you (and utu) to suddenly switch your argument in reference to the American Empire to consider that as a “reward” – because utu’s original justifications for supporting Taiwan independence are all high sounding feel-good reasons (e.g. “international law”, “They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with”, blah, blah). Destroying a rival superpower to help another clearly does not further his original goals.

    “But my point was not that China would hesitate to start a war. My point was to highlight (from an American point of view) the risks inherent in utu’s proposal”

    And you have managed to highlight that utu’s proposal is all risks and NO reward to US as a country, nor reward to ordinary Americans.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  414. @Astuteobservor II

    I’m not even sure what is there to respond. When one side starts aggression on you, you retaliate with whatever force needed to make them stop. The only alternate apparently is to accept an unilateral withdrawal and acceptance of new Indian borders and “sphere of influence”, including abandoning a number of Chinese allies for the better sake of their egos.

    Such a strategy is…not a strategy. Its certainly better to irritate his “billion” if they’ve already demonstrated themselves to be that erratic. In fact, it is bewildering that his argument essentially demands Chinese to give up current borders in order to…leave them alone(?).

    Its impressive chupatz but completely nonsensical.

  415. Ano4 says:
    @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    And why do you inform me about it?
    Did you ever read any of comments on this thread?
    Now go troll someone else.

  416. Ano4 says:
    @Menes

    Yours is a very interesting comment.

    I actually never thought about it that way even if I was aware of the opposite tendencies of Brahmins and the Shramanas take on Hinduism.

    It opens up a completely different perspective on what exactly is happening in Hindustan in the last 3500 years.

    I will need to process this information, there are too many interesting implications here.

    Thanks for this insight.

  417. @Astuteobservor II

    Well there’s always a choice. But I agree that the chance of choosing war would be enormously high.

    Regarding your question, I can easily imagine the US blundering into such a war. Their political class, media, ideology etc. are all becoming increasingly unhinged, so nuclear war for trivial or stupid reasons is not entirely off the table.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  418. @Grahamsno(G64)

    But you didn’t answer the point about this having happened in Chinese territory. Do you think that

    A) the claim is wrong (and are there sources to back this up?)
    B) the claim is correct, but China should just let India take a few valleys
    C) something else (please explain)

  419. @d dan

    I don’t think I’ve ever been a big fan of the American Empire here or elsewhere. I don’t wish for China to be humiliated, I merely reacted to utu’s proposal.

  420. antibeast says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    The question is what benefit it is to China to cultivate the enmity of a billion Hindus armed with nukes, surely this question must have been asked at the highest level.

    You’re belaboring your point. Why does Modi want India to be the running dog of US Imperialism? Is it purely a question of “colonial mentality”? Or is it Modi’s way of cultivating Hindu nationalism in India?

    China wants to cultivate a peaceful, progressive and prosperous Asia by means of trade and investment through OBOR, AIIB, SCO, RCEP, etc. India is free to join this New Silk Road of the 21st century by becoming part of the Asian family of nations and stop being a vassal of the rapidly declining USA Empire.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  421. @reiner Tor

    That I want to disagree. Everything is under control. I have a feeling that Jewish control of the media is even allowed by those in power cause it serves some purpose. As long as msm can be called upon to shit on China or Russia at will, it is completely OK to the power behind the scenes.
    Their control of college admissions offices are allowed as long as legacy still gets priority. Everything have a purpose, I hope.

    If not, we are totally fucked.

    But I think that is not the case.

  422. @Grahamsno(G64)

    “one that generates a 70 billion surplus for you”
    This must be the first time in its history where poor indians have had acess to high tech goods kitchen appliances smart phones etc its all because of the chinese, so you gotta thank the chinese thats made lives much much easier for poor indians and helped them in their small businesses and have hope and dreams ,if this were to vanish tomorrow your economys gonna get a big setback because there is no way you can make what china sells to you , sure you could it buy it from the west and korea but you will pay through the nose, .In other words its not so easy to stop chinese imports you would be cutting of your nose to spite your face .

  423. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Lol, you are comparing Taiwan to Pakistan?

    And what does that have to do with this border skirmish?

    What is the point of starting this for the Indian side? And yes, Indian side started this, don’t deny it. Did India think now is a good time to land grap since China is in an economic war with USA? This is funny since even USA thinks China right now is militarily invincible.

    As an outside observer, it doesn’t seem like India will gain much from this. Unless the goal is to become a satellite in USA’s orbit. Cause that is the only upside I see from this for India.

    Stop the chest thumping, drink a cold beer, think hard, think about it thoroughly.

  424. Meena says:
    @Menes

    But they deny any invasion . Blames the civilizational ( non Aryan ) collapse on climate change ( never thinking that climate change is taken advantage of by invaders just like US which doesn’t wait for climate mediated weakening but promotes and forces collapse of economy society infrastructure and even economic migration then attack the country ) Makes inconsistent and contradictory claims

    This is the confusing article making rounds
    http://indiafacts.org/aryan-invasion-myth-21st-century-science-debunks-19th-century-indology/

  425. Google says:
    @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    According to leaked Indian audio, more than 200 Indians killed. 0 Chinese killed.
    https://www.rt.com/news/492401-india-congress-arrested-ladakh/

    • Replies: @Meena
  426. Google says:

    Modi admits Chinese army didn’t cross to Indian territory. That means the fighting happened inside Chinese territory, that means Indians attacked Chinese.
    https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/chinese-troops-did-not-enter-our-territory-says-pm-modi-at-all-party-meeting-on-ladakh-standoff/story-QGgGUyL3sVRYB7mp3Y8bBI_amp.html

    • Replies: @Lin
  427. Ano4 says:
    @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    That’s cool with me.
    Enjoy your weekend and have a cold one on my behalf.

  428. Ano4 says:

    Of course there was an invasion, this invasion was protracted with Arya tribesmen moving south during centuries.

    Arya people are the ones from Arkaim Sintashta culture, they colonized Central Asian up to Xinjiang, invaded Bactria Margiana Civilization and also moved into the Indian subcontinent.

    This migration probably took several generations.

    Mohendjo-Daro civilization was already declining at the time, just like BAMAC was also, but it doesn’t mean there was no takeover.

    It was similar to the fall of Roman and Byzantine Empire and the Islamic conquest of Indian subcontinent.

    Y haplogroup paleogenetics prove it: the Indus civilization people were probably close to Dravidians, Aryan tribesmen were close to modern day Central Asians and Slavs.

    They were in fact proto-Scythians.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  429. Meena says:
    @Google

    Largest democracy liberal country ( NY Times 19 th June ) can’t handle this information “ An Indian Congress leader from Ladakh was arrested after “berating” the country’s army and making up “fake news” about deadly military clashes between India and China in the disputed border region.
    Local media reported that Congress Councilor Zakir Hussain was arrested for “sedition” and “spreading of false information” on Friday. His comments came after the bloody confrontation which claimed the lives of 20 Indian soldiers earlier in the week.

    In leaked audio, Hussain can be heard telling someone that China “has occupied 135km into India,” and that the Indian military was powerless to stop it. He claimed “at least 200-250 soldiers have died” – a far higher number than reported.

    He added that “nobody died from the Chinese side,” though Indian media had reported that as many as 43 Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers were killed. Beijing admitted there were some casualties, but did not say how many injuries or deaths it had suffered.” RT above

    Any democracy by definition allow and should allow facts and opinions ,and take actionable decision on the opinion either by refuting or in extreme case for libel to court .

    Much worst comments – hateful lying distortion – are daily things in the life of a RSS BJP leader from Modi to Shah .

    • Replies: @Google
    , @showmethereal
  430. Ano4 says:
    @Ano4

    Here, a good primer on the Indo-Iranian Aryan migrations.

    http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-andronovo-cradle-of-indo-iranian.html?m=1

    It is a discussion of the book by Kizmina who devoted her professional life to unraveling of Andronovo culture (of which Arkaim Sintashta complex was a part) and the origins of the two Aryan populations in Asia: the Indian and the Iranian.

  431. Google says:
    @Meena

    Of course they can’t.

    The psychology of India & Indian men is gamma male. In social hierarchy, gamma male is a wannabe alpha but without power and authority of alpha. That’s why “superpower by 2020″ even tho the country is shithole. Gamma males can’t afford to look weak. They like to chest thump and boast about stuff people don’t care like having 56” chest. Usually they’re ignored by other people and when people do pay attention to them, it’s to ridicule them.

    If you follow the news from Indian news, according to them Chinese outnumbered them by 6:1, Chinese used weapons and they were unarmed but somehow they managed to kill 43 while losing only 20.

    What happened, most likely, they thought the Chinese territory was lightly guarded, so they sneak attacked at night hoping to annex the land then got surprised when there were a lot of Chinese, so they fled. The “fighting” consisted of the Chinese beating & chasing running Indians, hence Chinese suffered no casualty. And the Chinese were able to capture 10 Indians while Indians couldn’t capture anyone.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  432. Tor597 says:

    The problem with India is that it is an inherently racist country due to the caste system.

    India cannot even get along with Indians who look East Asian:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-discriminati/spat-on-and-abused-coronavirus-fuels-racism-against-indias-northeasterners-idUSKBN23Q2JS

    Now imagine a Japanese or Korean company wants to invest in India why would they want to go somewhere where they will be spat on and be called racial slurs? Only huge companies like Samsung who can send their execs to 4 star resorts can do business in India.

    But what lasting alliance can India forge with the rest of Asia when it is such a racist country?

  433. @Vishnugupta

    Weapons programs make for strange bedfellows… But as to your statement that Russia hasn’t sold such tech to China. Aside from aircraft engines and S400’s- China doesn’t buy much from Russia anymore because it doesn’t need to. Are you aware of China’s missile arsenal? China bought Kilo class subs from Russia – but hasn’t bought any since.
    Actually one of the reasons Russia gave as to why it sold S400’s to China for less was because they didn’t need to support China in the same way they would need to support Turkey and India.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  434. @Philip Owen

    and where do you get such optimism?

  435. @Google

    China actually has SU-35’s from Russia…. But it posts them facing US fighters in the east… Doesn’t seem much concerned about India.

  436. @Not Only Wrathful

    So what is Trump and the MAGA crowd complaining about American manufacturing jobs being “raped”??? Well yeah the US makes more in dollar value – but in capacity it is not comparatively higher. It certainly is NOT higher in terms of employment percentage. Those things are too hard to grasp for his voters. Manufacturing is becoming more and more automated everywhere.

  437. @showmethereal

    Yes China’s missile arsenal is impressive but Hypersonic cruise missiles is an area where Russians for the time being reign supreme.

    Don’t you find it find it a bit interesting that Russians are codeveloping a Zircon derivative with India but do not seem to be doing so with China?

    Also helping out with our Nuclear Submarine and probably SLBM program,Other than US UK I am not aware of any other example of such a degree of assistance even though the prime target of Indian SSBNs is not very difficult to guess.

    What does this say about Russia’s medium to long term assessment about its relationship with India and China ?

    In any case it seems the Russians are convening an emergency meeting of Indian and Chinese foreign ministers in Moscow soon.I hope something positive and acceptable to both sides comes out of that.

  438. @Meena

    Indian media is a complete mess. They spread all types of fake nonsense. But that seems to be a “thing” in society in India – sad to say. Nobody even asks… “how do we know how many casualties the Chinese had on their side?”. Not much critical thinking. People just get worked up into a frenzy.

  439. @Vishnugupta

    What is says is that India still depends on Russia for every weapons program just about while China doesn’t. It shows Russia has no fear of India being able to catch up – so it will gladly make some money off India. Russia looks at China as a peer… It doesn’t look at India that way.

    As to hypersonic missiles… Russia and China both independently are in the lead. The US is a notch behind. India and Japan are another 2 notches back.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  440. @Vishnugupta

    Oh – I left this off of my last reply regarding the US-India-Russia-China party. To further prove that Russia is not applauding India cozying up to Washington (and 5 Eyes). Russia used to refuse to sell any military equipment – nor share any military expertise with Pakistan. That changed in 2014. Pakistan now buys Russian weapons in addition to working with China. India cozying up to Washington has consequences.

  441. @showmethereal

    Not really every.China also was very dependent on USSR/Russia in its initial stage and still is in jet engines.

    We were earlier completely dependent on imports of complete systems,then assembly of weapons,now we have slowly graduated to being able to design weapons ourselves though still dependent on critical components being imported.

    Our Navy is furthest along as far as indigenization is concerned,then the airforce,our army yes has institutional issues as far as domestic weapons development is concerned otherwise a country which can design it’s own aircraft carrier and most other capital ships should be able to design it’s own tank but uniquely that does not seem to be the case.

    “shows Russia has no fear of India being able to catch up – so it will gladly make some money off India. ”

    If it was only a matter of maybe around 1 billion USD that we are thought to have paid Russia for technical consultation on our program, surely the PRC would be able to compensate Russia this much to if nothing else delay Indian SSBN program by about a decade.

    What does this say about the effectiveness of Chinese diplomacy when its only major power ally on the world stage helps a country with which it has significant territorial disputes develop SSBNs?

    Or has hubris set in early in the PRC and it doesn’t really care about such trivial matters as a neighbor with territorial disputes acquiring reliable second strike capabilities with help not from the West but its closest strategic ally?

    As for Russian arms sales to Pakistan one keeps hearing a lot of talk but other than transport helicopters there hasn’t really been much actual sales has there? The only exception being the Klimov RD 93 engine on the JF 17 but that is another story.Before the formation of UEC Klimov was independently going bankrupt and it would appear the French had agreed to supply M88 for JF 17s being made in Pakistan..

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @antibeast
  442. @Vishnugupta

    More delusion. Russia and China are no allies. China has no allies. That is part of their foreign policy… Why? Because then you start to do things like India is doing and pivoting away from Russia to the Anglo Saxon order. You can try to down play Russia’s sale and further cooperation with Pakistan all you want. It is a minor step… But a step. The POINT is they would NEVER do that in the past because of India. But India cozying up to the west has changed the paradigm since 2014.

    Sure China was dependent on Russia early on. That’s the point… China developed many times faster than India in spite of starting from the same level in the post WW2 world. In fact at points India was ahead because it wasn’t embargoed by the west the way China was. That all disappeared in the 1980’s.
    The gap has NOT been closing either. Here is one Indian below who gets it… (though he’s talking about Indian delusion toward China)… Hopefully he doesn’t get shot like all the news reporters who went against the grain in India in the past decade.

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/1962-india-china-war-redux/

  443. @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    It wouldn’t be the least bit surprising if Indian media got PSYOPS training from US intelligence agencies.

  444. antibeast says:
    @Vishnugupta

    What does this say about the effectiveness of Chinese diplomacy when its only major power ally on the world stage helps a country with which it has significant territorial disputes develop SSBNs? Or has hubris set in early in the PRC and it doesn’t really care about such trivial matters as a neighbor with territorial disputes acquiring reliable second strike capabilities with help not from the West but its closest strategic ally?

    Your whataboutism is incorrect because China’s strategic partnership with Russia falls short of a geopolitical alliance of a military nature because such a military alliance would alarm Europe which has cordial ties with China. Being geopolitically independent of ANY world power since the 1960 Sino-Soviet split has afforded China the necessity to successfully build up its own indigenous defense industries, unlike India which is still very much dependent upon foreign sources of defense technologies, a prime example being India’s jet fighters which are sourced from France, Russia and now the USA. But therein lies the problem with Modi’s geopolitical folly of pivoting to the USA in order to spite China because that would entail India cutting off ties to Russia which is its most trusted and long-standing ally as evidenced by the opposition of the Trump Administration to India’s acquisition of the S-400 from Russia.

    Modi is suffering from delusions of grandeur, just like the cohort of Western-influenced Indian elites who own and rule much of India. Rather than tackling the myriad problems facing India’s masses, Indian elites want to relive the colonial dreams of the British Raj, this time under the suzerainty of Anglo-American Empire. The tragedy is that Modi would have to stab Russia in the back as he pivots away to the USA in order to spite China. Once that happens, India would have no ally left in the world, except for a hungry wolf willing and able to devour its next victim.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Showmethereal
  445. @antibeast

    The worst part is – is that they believe they are accepted by the Anglos. Far from it. Just like when they used to use Indian soldiers to fight colonial wars for them – they are just a useful tool now… Still looked at as a servant.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @antibeast
  446. @Lin

    Goes to show the obsession with China in both the US and India. Basically by dragging China into it shows they have little faith in their own talent to compete. Maybe if they bith spent more energy on education and such they would both be better off. The US wouldnt need so many migrants amd Indians wouldnt be always look for a way to get out.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  447. antibeast says:
    @Showmethereal

    Modi has turned Indians into sepoys who would gladly fight and die for their White masters while paying for their own demise:

    https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/as-us-seeks-strategic-commitment-from-india-top-diplomat-says-sanctions-for-buying-s-400-system-possible/595103

    Asserting that New Delhi will have to make a strategic commitment to [US] technologies and platforms, Alice Wells has said that the possibility of US sanctions on India for buying the multi-billion-dollar S-400 missile system from Russia remains on the table.

    She, however, said that both the countries have made significant progress in defense trade with weapons sales crossing the USD 20 billion mark after President Donald Trump’s visit to India.

    Adding that the US recognizes India as a leading power Wells said that Washington understands that New Delhi’s rise contributes to an environment in Asia that serves US interests.

    India craves recognition as a world power but behaves like a puppy dog of US Imperialism.

  448. antibeast says:
    @Showmethereal

    Modi has turned Indians into sepoys who would gladly fight and die for their White masters while paying for their own demise:

    https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/as-us-seeks-strategic-commitment-from-india-top-diplomat-says-sanctions-for-buying-s-400-system-possible/595103

    Asserting that New Delhi will have to make a strategic commitment to [US] technologies and platforms, Alice Wells has said that the possibility of US sanctions on India for buying the multi-billion-dollar S-400 missile system from Russia remains on the table.

    She, however, said that both the countries have made significant progress in defense trade with weapons sales crossing the USD 20 billion mark after President Donald Trump’s visit to India.

    Adding that the US recognizes India as a leading power Wells said that Washington understands that New Delhi’s rise contributes to an environment in Asia that serves US interests.

    India craves recognition as a world power but behaves like a puppy dog of US Imperialism.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  449. antibeast says:
    @Lin

    A vivid demonstration of the hindu caste elitism: Chinese gov mourns brain drain but the hi caste hindus love it and want to get the fuck out while claiming how hindu nationalistic they are.

    The Hindu caste elitism is worse than that because of their colonial mentality. Indian techies think that serving US MNCs like Facebook, Amazon, Apple and Google is more prestigious than working at home in India. That’s why despite Indian techies accounting for 75% of the H1-B visas issued annually by the USA, there is no homegrown equivalent of Facebook, Amazon, Apple and Google back in India while China has its own tech giants such as Tencent, Alibaba, Huawei and Baidu which has inspired Chinese techies who dream of founding their own tech startups in China. Indian tech executives like Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai who head Microsoft and Google respectively are treated as celebrities in India while Chinese techies like Pony Ma and Ren Zhengfei who founded Tencent and Huawei respectively are considered heroes in China.

    I can think of only one other country in Asia whose citizens behave this way. But that’s another story.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  450. Jatt Arya says:

    Hindu upper castes want to get out because of 75%+ reservation in most jobs against them.

    India already told Trump to fuck off and doubled the S-400 deal the day after Trump threatened sanctions.

    Put this thread to rest already.

    • Replies: @Lin
  451. Lin says:
    @Jatt Arya

    My dear Punjab aryan,

    Hindu upper castes want to get out because of 75%+ reservation in most jobs against them.

    That applies probably to (below hi-rank)gov jobs. Private companies in bharat seem have no reservation quota. The overwhelming majority of more educated Indians who want to migrate to US do so because of one financial goal: Permanent residence in US where incomes are much much higher(the same as other particularly 3rd world migrants).
    China spends a lot more on R&D (15 times as much as the indian figure).
    Big china companies like Huawei pay less than the counterparts in similar US tech establishment, however the income reward is good enough for the brighter Chinese scientists and engineers to stay away from the hassle of moving aboard.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/Huawei-dangles-300-000-starting-pay-to-draw-young-geniuses
    ………..
    BTW,’brain drain’/’exode des cerveaux’ was first coined by the british and French during the early 1050s losing talents to USA

    • Replies: @Lin
  452. @antibeast

    IN the case of the S400 it goes both ways. The US also looks pathetic because it first threatened Turkey and now India – but neither really care… But yes overall Modi is quick to bow down to Anglos. The guy I was discussing with above believes that it hasn’t affected India’s relationship with Russia. He must be crazy.

  453. antibeast says:
    @Showmethereal

    Goes to show the obsession with China in both the US and India. Basically by dragging China into it shows they have little faith in their own talent to compete.

    Yes, the “China Syndrome” which afflicts the USA has also infected Modi.

    https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2020/05/19/indias-pivot-to-the-united-states/

    At a time when much of Asia is reconciling itself to the regional dominance of China and increasing political distance from the United States, India is going the other way — moving into an ever-closer partnership with the United States and making a more intensive effort to balance China in the Indo-Pacific.

    The reorientation of India’s great-power relations is driven by two factors. One is the rise of China and Delhi’s growing power imbalance with Beijing. The other is Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s success in overcoming the entrenched anti-US sentiment in the Indian political and bureaucratic establishment.

    The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) was by no means enthusiastic about building a strong relationship with the United States. The BJP aligned with the Communists in opposing the civil nuclear initiative with the United States and sought to bring down the Manmohan Singh government during 2005–08. If Manmohan Singh was hobbled by opposition to a US partnership from the Communists and much of the Congress party itself, Modi had to cope with the deeply held wariness about the United States among Hindutva ideologues.

    Of more import is the strategic implications of Modi’s Pivot to the USA away from Russia.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Indian-arms-market-heats-up-as-a-US-Russia-battleground

    The U.S. made major strides in the 2013 to 2018 period, according to the Stockholm International Peace Institute, which tracks the global arms trade. Russia’s share of the Indian market fell to 58%, from 76% during the previous five-year term. Meanwhile, American shipments to India soared by 569%, at one point elevating the U.S. to No. 2 on India’s list of suppliers.

    Since India accounts for 25% of Russia’s arms exports, Modi’s Pivot to the USA has significant impact on Russia’s defense industries which affects its strategic partnership with India, going all the way back to the Soviet era. In contrast, India accounts for only 3% of China’s exports, too marginal to affect China’s highly diversified economy. As evidenced by US threats to impose sanctions on India for purchasing the S-400 from Russia, Modi’s Pivot to the USA undermines India’s own strategic partnership with Russia.

    Modi is stabbing Russia in the back to appease the USA in order to spite China. For what? So that Western-influenced Indian elites can buy the privilege of hanging out with the Harvard/Yale crowd in New York instead of the Oxford/Cambridge crowd in London?

  454. Jatt Arya says:
    @Lin

    Idk I support caste system||

    Have fun being rocked, you bring up 1962 but forget the opium wars||

  455. Lin says:

    My dear Punjab aryan, my impression:
    –(I wouldn’t bother with the authenticity of the exploit of Mr, Gurjek, I hope he R.I.P. and then reincarnate into a supreme caste)You’re quite typical of the indian nationalists that ‘pride’ is super important.
    Let me help you, according to Subramanian Swamy, bharat can overtake china in 4 years.
    https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/kochi/2019/oct/06/india-can-overtake-china-in-4-years-if-we-can-correct-mistakes-swamy-2043810.html
    –You’re untypically honest that you said ‘caste is real’ and you support the caste system.

Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply - Anon comments are not allowed. If you are new to my work, *start here*. If you liked this post, and want me to produce more such content, consider *donating*.


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments have been licensed to The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS