The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersRussian Reaction Blog
Ideological Heterogeneity of the Corona Response
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

One thing I noted early on is the ideological heterogeneity of the coronavirus response internationally.

Yeah, you can dispute precise positionings in the political compass of “coronaskeptics” below, but it illustrates my point.

Conversely, that “coronaskepticism” is implicitly right-wing (& vice versa) is just a plebbit meme, if one that many right-wingers themselves – almost invariably American ones – have embraced.

  • Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, Erdogan, Putin – none of them are “corona-skeptics”. I assume they haven’t started identifying as leftists/liberals since January 2020.
  • Trump changes his opinions with the wind.
  • Bolsonaro is the only major world leader who qualifies, sticking to his guns from the start up to the present day.

Note that none of this so far is even a normative statement or judgment in favor of either the “coronapill” or “coronaskepticism”, but just an observation.

Coronaskepticism as a right-wing position does indeed generally apply to domestic US politics.

But the world at large rarely confirms to partisan American obsessions. And, come to think of it, isn’t that actually supposed to be a good thing – at least so far as most of us are concerned?

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Corona, Ideologies 
Hide 98 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. What are the odds of a 30 or a 40 year old in average health getting hospitalized for coronavirus? Or dying from one? Is it less than the odds of a 737max crashing in a flight which the FAA grounded?

  3. Well corona skeptics tend to be global warming skeptics as well so that makes sense, and unlike the other 2, I will not really call Johnson and Teggell corona hoaxers.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    BTW, I don't think it's appropriate to "Troll" Jaakko's comments, they are high quality whether one agrees with them or not.
    , @dfordoom

    Well corona skeptics tend to be global warming skeptics as well
     
    You would think that but is it actually true?

    Maybe the link between corona scepticism and global warming scepticism is also a purely US thing?

    I'm an extreme global warming sceptic but I'm not a corona sceptic. Maybe I'm unusual. Or maybe, not being American, I'm free to make up my mind on various issues without having to do so on partisan political grounds.
  4. A123 says:

    Trump changes his opinions with the wind.

    That is a bit dramatic. How about:

    Trump adapted his response as better data became available.

    During the first few days of the WUHAN-19 media story there was minimal information. Many leaders, including Trump, made incorrect decisions on that limited data.
    ____

    I still think that Trump owes Governor Kemp of Georgia an apology. Trump has shifted to Kemp’s position on re-opening.

    On the other hand, Kemp’s re-election campaign could get good mileage out of a “Trump Doesn’t Like Me” message, especially in Atlanta and surrounding areas.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @HallParvey

    During the first few days of the WUHAN-19 media story there was minimal information
     
    There was a deluge of information, all contradictory. Rampant speculation ran riot. There were going to be 50,000 people dead by next week if Trump didn't do something. Or 80,000.

    He did. Sensibly, he listened to a University Expert. And acted according to the advice he was given. And quite possibly took the best available course of action.

    Trump has enemies, some of whom would be more than pleased if he died from the effects of Corona virus. Quite a few work for the alphabet news media where much of the speculative and contradictory "information" is created. Out of thin air.


    Trump changes his opinions with the wind.

    That is a bit dramatic. How about:

    Trump adapted his response as better data became available.
     
    See how it can be done if the President were someone like B. Obama.
  5. Our right-wing, especially the True Finns, pushed hard for corona restrictions while the Social Democrats who hold the PM seat seemed to actually want to do the same as Sweden. The left-wing government caved in and agreed to restrictions.

    I think pushing for corona panic has been the biggest political own goal in history by our right-wing. They handed a free gift to the left by talking up a crisis, disaster never came, and now the people that were led to believe that the sky was falling believe that the left-wing government saved them.

    As the cost of the measures gets apparent the government might collapse in polls again but who would they go to? All the opposition parties were even more eager for restrictions. I’m very alone with my corona skeptic opinions here.

    • Troll: Znzn
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I’m very alone with my corona skeptic opinions here.
     
    I don't think so, that seems to be the majority opinion on The Unz Review - which is predominantly populated by Americans.

    In Russia, I'd say the most hardline position was taken by Zhirinovsky, who called for Chinese travel restrictions and called on LDPR members to stop handshakes as early as late January. Whereas the most coronaskeptic have, I think, been the Communists.
  6. Aleksandr Lukashenko is a national treasure.

    I suspect that Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, and Putin govern systems that are viewed as intrinsically more patriotic by their heritage populations than governing systems headed by Trump, Bolsonaro, etc.

    I may write about it at length at some point when I pause work on my book but I definitely think that, at least in America, the trustworthiness and moral weight of the established interests is so low that even following sensible suggestions from them is ultimately a form of treason against the nation.

    In spite of the relative universality of current year US cultural cancer, I do think that the subtle nuances of American political realities do not translate well – since the US metasituation is so unique.

    I do like how you managed to find a picture of Jair reacting organically to being part of your coronaskeptic compass.

    Boris looks like he wants to see your memelord licence.

    Thanks for the chortle.

  7. It’s simple: the corona skeptics are the people who enjoyed pissing of their female assistant principals in high school. The corona quarantine enforcers are the feminized opportunists who advanced by following rules, making more of them, and then enjoying snitching on the rule-breakers. The corona panic gave them a unique opportunity to live their dream – a regimented society with a zero tolerance for mischief, full control and conformism, no risky behaviours, and most definitely no horse play. This is just junior high school on steroids.

    The Western society was ready – things ceased to work almost a decade ago. Hundred years ago we would have a war (and we did) to break the impasse, refresh the blood lines, get rid of the debts, and pour cold water on the simmering hatreds. We can’t have one now – you are not going to have a war with the nukes around and with feminized men running the show. So we get the next best (or worst) thing – an endless process aggression, a Kafkaesque nightmare of ever more rules and a pathological fear of any risk.

    That’s what you get in a society run by women and for women. People also thought that WWI would be over soon (“by Christmas“), but it dragged on. We could be entering a similar nightmare – a non-war, or a female substitute for war that goes on for years.

    (One anomaly is Sweden, a feminized, byrocratic, rules-obeying, liberal hell-hole. I have no idea how they managed to dodge it this time – maybe there is more to Swedes than we have come to expect. I can’t explain it.)

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    It's not because of Swedish politicians, it's because it's very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven't had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren't prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.
    , @UK
    There's a UK leftwing organisation called Novara Media. Today they headlined their utterly inane hour long broadcast about a government adviser driving in a car when potentially sick to an isolated cottage to ensure his four year old would have childcare as "Rule Breaker" and descended into the most pathetic outrage I've ever heard.

    "Omg he stopped for five minutes at the deserted bank of a river with his child and sat and potentially enjoyed the moment!"

    "Just think of all the rule-abiders who never left their home no matter what happened and suffered endlessly as a result!"

    It is sad, sad, sad to see self-styled rebels acting like a satire of a four year old playground sneak.

    It was also tragic watching a journalist question said advisor by "pointing out" that everyone who did everything they could to save the country by staying at home were somehow in a position to feel aggrieved.

    Yes, cretins, now you are national heros for never leaving your basement...meanwhile a father and government advisor is a monster for ensuring adequate childcare for his four year old and returning to work to help organise the response as ordered.

    Truly we must live in an age to rival that of the Iliad for its incredible heroism.

    Medals for all. Except those who are not totally pathetic. They should be burned.

    Rene Girard, stop looking so smug from your grave.
    , @Diary of a Supreme Gentleman
    I enjoyed pissing off my high school principal and I want to DOTR "corona skeptics." "Corona skeptics" are the D-students who haven't matured since age 16 and are enraged the fact that they are making less money than the "nerds" they used to look down on. I wish there was a way we could make intelligent critiques of credentialism without it attracting these pinheads who interpret it as meaning it's a good thing they failed algebra.

    Trumpist nationalism in America is increasingly becoming a form of identity politics for D-students. Ah well, I can only sit on the sidelines and wish European nationalists well. Hell, at this point I even wish Israeli nationalists well.
  8. @Jaakko Raipala
    Our right-wing, especially the True Finns, pushed hard for corona restrictions while the Social Democrats who hold the PM seat seemed to actually want to do the same as Sweden. The left-wing government caved in and agreed to restrictions.

    I think pushing for corona panic has been the biggest political own goal in history by our right-wing. They handed a free gift to the left by talking up a crisis, disaster never came, and now the people that were led to believe that the sky was falling believe that the left-wing government saved them.

    As the cost of the measures gets apparent the government might collapse in polls again but who would they go to? All the opposition parties were even more eager for restrictions. I'm very alone with my corona skeptic opinions here.

    I’m very alone with my corona skeptic opinions here.

    I don’t think so, that seems to be the majority opinion on The Unz Review – which is predominantly populated by Americans.

    In Russia, I’d say the most hardline position was taken by Zhirinovsky, who called for Chinese travel restrictions and called on LDPR members to stop handshakes as early as late January. Whereas the most coronaskeptic have, I think, been the Communists.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Ah, sorry, I'm feeling real sleepy so I'm messing up my typing.

    I meant to say that I'm very very alone in my country which seems to have gone for really unique levels of corona panic with the right-wing opposition only opposing the left-wing government from the panic side, never the skeptic side. There have been no voices questioning whether corona is actually dangerous enough to justify these measures and the press is STILL feeding us constant frenzied stories about piles of bodies on the streets in Sweden and Russia... it's all very depressing to me.

    This has left us in a very bizarre political situation where the ruling Social Democrats were the most corona skeptical party and for the least restrictions but they caved in and led the restrictions. So now they own them, the opposition owns them, and I can't vote against the government because there's literally no party that disagrees with the restrictions - only some that demanded even more.
  9. @Beckow
    It's simple: the corona skeptics are the people who enjoyed pissing of their female assistant principals in high school. The corona quarantine enforcers are the feminized opportunists who advanced by following rules, making more of them, and then enjoying snitching on the rule-breakers. The corona panic gave them a unique opportunity to live their dream - a regimented society with a zero tolerance for mischief, full control and conformism, no risky behaviours, and most definitely no horse play. This is just junior high school on steroids.

    The Western society was ready - things ceased to work almost a decade ago. Hundred years ago we would have a war (and we did) to break the impasse, refresh the blood lines, get rid of the debts, and pour cold water on the simmering hatreds. We can't have one now - you are not going to have a war with the nukes around and with feminized men running the show. So we get the next best (or worst) thing - an endless process aggression, a Kafkaesque nightmare of ever more rules and a pathological fear of any risk.

    That's what you get in a society run by women and for women. People also thought that WWI would be over soon ("by Christmas"), but it dragged on. We could be entering a similar nightmare - a non-war, or a female substitute for war that goes on for years.

    (One anomaly is Sweden, a feminized, byrocratic, rules-obeying, liberal hell-hole. I have no idea how they managed to dodge it this time - maybe there is more to Swedes than we have come to expect. I can't explain it.)

    It’s not because of Swedish politicians, it’s because it’s very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven’t had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren’t prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency
     
    That is probably the reason - an odd and beneficial consequence of living uneventfully for so long.

    But now I am conflicted; I prefer for any government authority to have an actual power to change things. There is really no point to governing if it is helpless.
    , @Swedish Family

    It’s not because of Swedish politicians, it’s because it’s very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven’t had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren’t prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.
     
    I agree, but would like to add a few things:

    * It now seems that the IFR for the under-70s is even lower -- perhaps many times lower -- than suggested by the Chinese data, but even using that, the Swedish strategy of self-isolation for the over-70s made every sense from the beginning. Having a strategy with logic to recommend it and a clear exit plan is obviously an easier sell than an open-ended lockdown with a shocking price-tag and no guarantee of success.

    * Building on point one, the government was successful in getting the Swedish cathedral (media and the academy) on board before the deaths started piling up. This meant that the alarmist headlines we saw in British and American papers were mostly absent in Sweden, which made it easier to hold a steady course in those dark days of early April. I remember heavyweight opinion-maker Lena Melin of Aftonbladet (old-school social democrat) writing then that she was proud of Sweden for standing firm, and she was but one of many. (As it happens, I used the same wording the other day when an old man behind me in the grocery line cursed the Swedish strategy out loud. "How can you be proud of killing people?" he answered as I stepped up to the cash register, which somehow left me speechless. I felt a bit bad afterward for not explaining what I meant, especially given his great age, but I hope he will come around to my view and remember my comment with a smile.)

    * Liberalism and fear of authorianism did play a part, I'm sure. Had France and Netherlands, say, been the first countries to lock down, our distaste of draconian measures would have weakened a bit, but it turned out to be the Chinese, whose authoritarianism most Swedes look at in horror (even sometimes yours truly, it has to be said).

  10. German_reader says:

    In Germany it’s definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia’s commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as “If you’re afraid, stay at home”. Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more “dissident” (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the “shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster” line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, “between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die” due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who’ve got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What’s more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major “new right” magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a “dictatorship of health” where masks are seen as a symbol for “muzzling citizens”. Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what’s the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer…apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal “muh economy” crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn’t connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I’ll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I’m the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it’s not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that’s OK.

    • Agree: Fluesterwitz
    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin, melanf
    • Replies: @Znzn
    Most of the skeptics honestly seem to think this is no worse than a bad cold. And as for East Asians, maybe they are just genetically more nepotistic, collectivist, and risk averse?
    , @Beckow
    I am not going to dismiss your fear, people adapt to risk differently. But we have actual data about what corona does, who it kills, how many, how old, etc...none of the data justifies full shutdowns. Corona is not dangerous for the young, so why should they stop their lives., forgo incomes, socialising, studying, etc...?

    It is dangerous - although not terribly fatal - for the old and sick. Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn't over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?
    , @Mitleser

    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.
     
    Considering how the German age pyramid looks like and how much the health system costs, I cannot blame them.
    Not even "protecting our voters" argument applies because older Germans tend to vote for CDU/CSU and SocDems.

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting (for instance, banning the use of outdoor play and sports grounds).
    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.
    , @Kent Nationalist

    The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
     
    That is very disappointing given the Nazis' strong track record in controlling infectious diseases such as Typhus.
    , @Matra

    The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April
     
    Merkel's Germany is so repressive even the Nazis think it's gone too far.

    Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, Putin – none of them are “corona-skeptics”
     
    I was under the impression that Japan hadn't bothered with much of a shutdown. Maybe they changed their minds after the Olympics were postponed.
    , @dfordoom

    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.
     
    I agree. It's one of the creepier and more disturbing aspects of this whole situation.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    That is also the line some of the paid for anons are touting now in the comments section.

    First it is nothing, China is lying.

    Then it is just the flu. No worries

    Once death tallies went up, they died of pre conditions. This is a hoax. This is even after trump changed tactics and public statements. Chinese numbers are fake even though other Asian countries are doing just as well.

    Deaths numbers are now close to 100k in the USA. They have doubled down, that the partial lockdown n social distancing has caused all the spikes in death compare to last decade's avg flu death.

    They can always come up with the stupidest arguments to excuse the deaths.
  11. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    Most of the skeptics honestly seem to think this is no worse than a bad cold. And as for East Asians, maybe they are just genetically more nepotistic, collectivist, and risk averse?

  12. @Anatoly Karlin

    I’m very alone with my corona skeptic opinions here.
     
    I don't think so, that seems to be the majority opinion on The Unz Review - which is predominantly populated by Americans.

    In Russia, I'd say the most hardline position was taken by Zhirinovsky, who called for Chinese travel restrictions and called on LDPR members to stop handshakes as early as late January. Whereas the most coronaskeptic have, I think, been the Communists.

    Ah, sorry, I’m feeling real sleepy so I’m messing up my typing.

    I meant to say that I’m very very alone in my country which seems to have gone for really unique levels of corona panic with the right-wing opposition only opposing the left-wing government from the panic side, never the skeptic side. There have been no voices questioning whether corona is actually dangerous enough to justify these measures and the press is STILL feeding us constant frenzied stories about piles of bodies on the streets in Sweden and Russia… it’s all very depressing to me.

    This has left us in a very bizarre political situation where the ruling Social Democrats were the most corona skeptical party and for the least restrictions but they caved in and led the restrictions. So now they own them, the opposition owns them, and I can’t vote against the government because there’s literally no party that disagrees with the restrictions – only some that demanded even more.

  13. @Jaakko Raipala
    It's not because of Swedish politicians, it's because it's very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven't had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren't prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.

    …very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency

    That is probably the reason – an odd and beneficial consequence of living uneventfully for so long.

    But now I am conflicted; I prefer for any government authority to have an actual power to change things. There is really no point to governing if it is helpless.

  14. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    I am not going to dismiss your fear, people adapt to risk differently. But we have actual data about what corona does, who it kills, how many, how old, etc…none of the data justifies full shutdowns. Corona is not dangerous for the young, so why should they stop their lives., forgo incomes, socialising, studying, etc…?

    It is dangerous – although not terribly fatal – for the old and sick. Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, Manfred Arcane
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?
     
    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely - the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    The Western society was ready
     
    Many non-Western societies locked down, starting with China. So you need an explanation equally valid for India, Russia, China, Serbia etc.
  15. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.

    Considering how the German age pyramid looks like and how much the health system costs, I cannot blame them.
    Not even “protecting our voters” argument applies because older Germans tend to vote for CDU/CSU and SocDems.

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting (for instance, banning the use of outdoor play and sports grounds).
    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting
     
    Agree about the first part, not so much about the second.
    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel's government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling...but it's of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in "It's just a flu" crackpottery or gives the impression that they'd be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because "Everybody is responsible for himself" and "muh liberty".
    I have to admit even I occasionally feel sympathy for Merkel now given how unhinged some of the criticism about the shutdown measures is, just imagine how most normies will see it who are already inclined anyway to regard Merkel as a competent leader.

    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.
     
    imo it's unavoidable to some extent, Germany and other northern countries have to show some solidarity with the south, otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn't desirable.
    I have to admit though that the wave of anti-German hatred and scapegoating which was the first reaction of so many Italians and Spaniards to the crisis really irritated me, this raises some serious questions imo and ought to be discussed as a problem (but of course won't).
    French are also getting insufferable...that stupid Le Pen niece Marion Marechal is now talking of a "Latin alliance" against "German-dominated Brussels" (lol), also wants Europe to be a "bridge between the US and Russia" for a common front against China (makes me wonder to what extent she's associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that "national conservatism" conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth). Almost makes me hope for a second term of Macron, at least he's more polite when demanding German money.
  16. Why did the west – for the most part – decided to follow in China’s footsteps in response to the Corona? Was the Chinese response the best? Yes and no. In terms of saving lives – yes, in terms of overall impact on the economy and other long term consequences as a result of the lockdown – no. There were 3 main battlefields in the fight against the Corona:
    1. Medical field
    2. Economy
    3. Propaganda field

    China won all 3 of them. Lacking a reliable medical treatment to fight the corona, the west had no choice but to follow China’s example in dealing with the pandemic. Why? Any other response would have been seen and interpreted as the west not caring enough for their citizens and putting more emphasis on saving the economy, than saving lives. Futile effort. Everybody (should) know(s) that China cares more about their people than the west does about theirs. The west just couldn’t afford to hand over to China the victory in the propaganda field, by throwing their citizens under the bus driven by that maniac – the Corona.

    • Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way
    The best response should be judged in light of the information available and the cost of waiting for more information rather than acting. On January 23 with so little information and a virus that spread fast, the at the time shocking decision to lockdown an entire province was an excellent one.

    China has not won any propaganda battles. China's global reputation has sunk to a 30-year low due to portrayal by the US as lying about deaths and covering up the outbreak. But the US has lost the narrative war too. Pompeo's feeble attempts to wage information war have made the US look buffoonish. The drop in US credibility in the face of push back by the closest allies is telling. Pompeo's clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.
    , @yakushimaru
    When China acted,

    1. there was no clear information that it mainly knocks off the old and sick.

    2. it might've been only a China problem, which, among other things, means that the impact on economy cannot be that big as soon as China gets it controlled.

    3. if by this stage China had got 100k or 300k killed, and if it is a China only problem, there can hardly be political stability.
  17. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.

    That is very disappointing given the Nazis’ strong track record in controlling infectious diseases such as Typhus.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    The Soviet Union had the world's most effective anti-epidemic state capacity, with epidemic surveillance institutes in every major city.

    But how in just a generation, such capabilities can rust.

    -

    Not to say they are representative of normal attitudes in Russia or in the government (fortunately, they are not in either case) - some deputies of the party of power, as well as important officials like Dmitry Peskov (Press Secretary of the President) were buying "anticoronavirus" badges, and wearing these badges even in parliament to protect themselves.

    Apparently, hoaxers on the internet were selling these pieces of plastic, and saying that they are magical badges with Japanese technology that will protect you from the virus. (Of course, it is not even Japanese, but some probably discarded Chinese plastic scrap).

    So it seems some politicians are really stupid enough that they bought these plastic badges on the internet, and believed it would protect them from the virus.

  18. Frankly, I don’t see any correlation between left- and right-wing governments and corona response in the US. E.g., both NY and California are ultra-liberal, governed by Dems. NY response was screwed through and through: they did not do anything to stop the epidemic, and when it was too late to deal with infections, they decided to ruin the economy for no good reason. In contrast, CA managed the epidemic remarkably well.

    Here are the data:
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    In terms of deaths per million CA is doing many times better than liberal-infested NY, NJ, MA, and CT, and better than conservative-dominated FL, AZ, or TN. As Federal Government essentially abdicated its responsibility, this reflects the capability of state governments, not their ideology.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Ron Unz has written about this: https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/
  19. @AnonFromTN
    Frankly, I don’t see any correlation between left- and right-wing governments and corona response in the US. E.g., both NY and California are ultra-liberal, governed by Dems. NY response was screwed through and through: they did not do anything to stop the epidemic, and when it was too late to deal with infections, they decided to ruin the economy for no good reason. In contrast, CA managed the epidemic remarkably well.

    Here are the data:
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    In terms of deaths per million CA is doing many times better than liberal-infested NY, NJ, MA, and CT, and better than conservative-dominated FL, AZ, or TN. As Federal Government essentially abdicated its responsibility, this reflects the capability of state governments, not their ideology.
    • Replies: @JSQ
    The failure of NY in its COVID response was due to governmental incompetence (embodied by its clown of a mayor) and the uniqueness of New York City which, in terms of population density, public-transport utilization, ethnic diversity and international population is totally unlike any other city in the US. People make the mistake of comparing NYC to LA or San Francisco but they're just not equivalent; NYC is sui generis in America, and it doesn't surprise me at all they were so hard hit.
  20. UK says:
    @Beckow
    It's simple: the corona skeptics are the people who enjoyed pissing of their female assistant principals in high school. The corona quarantine enforcers are the feminized opportunists who advanced by following rules, making more of them, and then enjoying snitching on the rule-breakers. The corona panic gave them a unique opportunity to live their dream - a regimented society with a zero tolerance for mischief, full control and conformism, no risky behaviours, and most definitely no horse play. This is just junior high school on steroids.

    The Western society was ready - things ceased to work almost a decade ago. Hundred years ago we would have a war (and we did) to break the impasse, refresh the blood lines, get rid of the debts, and pour cold water on the simmering hatreds. We can't have one now - you are not going to have a war with the nukes around and with feminized men running the show. So we get the next best (or worst) thing - an endless process aggression, a Kafkaesque nightmare of ever more rules and a pathological fear of any risk.

    That's what you get in a society run by women and for women. People also thought that WWI would be over soon ("by Christmas"), but it dragged on. We could be entering a similar nightmare - a non-war, or a female substitute for war that goes on for years.

    (One anomaly is Sweden, a feminized, byrocratic, rules-obeying, liberal hell-hole. I have no idea how they managed to dodge it this time - maybe there is more to Swedes than we have come to expect. I can't explain it.)

    There’s a UK leftwing organisation called Novara Media. Today they headlined their utterly inane hour long broadcast about a government adviser driving in a car when potentially sick to an isolated cottage to ensure his four year old would have childcare as “Rule Breaker” and descended into the most pathetic outrage I’ve ever heard.

    “Omg he stopped for five minutes at the deserted bank of a river with his child and sat and potentially enjoyed the moment!”

    “Just think of all the rule-abiders who never left their home no matter what happened and suffered endlessly as a result!”

    It is sad, sad, sad to see self-styled rebels acting like a satire of a four year old playground sneak.

    It was also tragic watching a journalist question said advisor by “pointing out” that everyone who did everything they could to save the country by staying at home were somehow in a position to feel aggrieved.

    Yes, cretins, now you are national heros for never leaving your basement…meanwhile a father and government advisor is a monster for ensuring adequate childcare for his four year old and returning to work to help organise the response as ordered.

    Truly we must live in an age to rival that of the Iliad for its incredible heroism.

    Medals for all. Except those who are not totally pathetic. They should be burned.

    Rene Girard, stop looking so smug from your grave.

  21. @Znzn
    Well corona skeptics tend to be global warming skeptics as well so that makes sense, and unlike the other 2, I will not really call Johnson and Teggell corona hoaxers.

    BTW, I don’t think it’s appropriate to “Troll” Jaakko’s comments, they are high quality whether one agrees with them or not.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  22. Recent “European” mutation of SARS 2.0 makes it potentially more harmful for the children?:

    Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C) associated with Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a newly recognized condition in which children with recent SARS-CoV-2 infection present with a constellation of symptoms including hypotension, multiorgan involvement, and elevated inflammatory markers. These symptoms and the associated laboratory values strongly resemble toxic shock syndrome, an escalation of the cytotoxic adaptive immune response triggered upon the binding of pathogenic superantigens to MHCII molecules and T cell receptors (TCRs). Here, we used structure-based computational models to demonstrate that the SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) exhibits a high-affinity motif for binding TCR, interacting closely with both the α- and β-chains variable domains’ complementarity-determining regions. The binding epitope on S harbors a sequence motif unique to SARS-CoV-2 (not present in any other SARS coronavirus), which is highly similar in both sequence and structure to bacterial superantigens. Further examination revealed that this interaction between the virus and human T cells is strengthened in the context of a recently reported rare mutation (D839Y/N/E) from a European strain of SARS-CoV-2. Furthermore, the interfacial region includes selected residues from a motif shared between the SARS viruses from the 2003 and 2019 pandemics, which has intracellular adhesion molecule (ICAM)-like character. These data suggest that the SARS-CoV-2 S may act as a superantigen to drive the development of MIS-C as well as cytokine storm in adult COVID-19 patients, with important implications for the development of therapeutic approaches.

    Significance. Although children have been largely spared from severe COVID-19 disease, a rare hyperinflammatory syndrome has been described in Europe and the East Coast of the United States, termed Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MISC). The symptoms and diagnostic lab values of MIS-C resemble those of toxic shock, typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike has a sequence and structure motif highly similar to those of bacterial superantigens, and may directly bind to the T cell receptors. This sequence motif, not present in other coronaviruses, may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19 patients.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.21.109272v1

    • Replies: @sudden death

    The binding epitope on S harbors a sequence motif unique to SARS-CoV-2 (not present in any other SARS coronavirus), which is highly similar in both sequence and structure to bacterial superantigens.
     
    Some overall intro about bacterial superantigens:

    Superantigens (SAgs) are the most powerful T cell mitogens ever discovered. Concentrations of less than 0·1 pg/ml of a bacterial superantigen are sufficient to stimulate the T lymphocytes in an uncontrolled manner resulting in fever, shock and death.

    There are now 41 bacterial SAgs described in the literature (Table 1) and the number is growing steadily. In addition, a new family of SAg-related proteins has been identified in Staphylococcus aureus that show sequence and structural homology to the ‘classical’ SAgs, but appear to have a quite different role. This review provides a summary of the field to date with some of the more recent discoveries that shed light on the how superantigens are able to trigger such strong T cell responses and the diseases related to SAg intoxication.
     

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808794/
  23. @sudden death
    Recent "European" mutation of SARS 2.0 makes it potentially more harmful for the children?:

    Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C) associated with Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a newly recognized condition in which children with recent SARS-CoV-2 infection present with a constellation of symptoms including hypotension, multiorgan involvement, and elevated inflammatory markers. These symptoms and the associated laboratory values strongly resemble toxic shock syndrome, an escalation of the cytotoxic adaptive immune response triggered upon the binding of pathogenic superantigens to MHCII molecules and T cell receptors (TCRs). Here, we used structure-based computational models to demonstrate that the SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) exhibits a high-affinity motif for binding TCR, interacting closely with both the α- and β-chains variable domains’ complementarity-determining regions. The binding epitope on S harbors a sequence motif unique to SARS-CoV-2 (not present in any other SARS coronavirus), which is highly similar in both sequence and structure to bacterial superantigens. Further examination revealed that this interaction between the virus and human T cells is strengthened in the context of a recently reported rare mutation (D839Y/N/E) from a European strain of SARS-CoV-2. Furthermore, the interfacial region includes selected residues from a motif shared between the SARS viruses from the 2003 and 2019 pandemics, which has intracellular adhesion molecule (ICAM)-like character. These data suggest that the SARS-CoV-2 S may act as a superantigen to drive the development of MIS-C as well as cytokine storm in adult COVID-19 patients, with important implications for the development of therapeutic approaches.

    Significance. Although children have been largely spared from severe COVID-19 disease, a rare hyperinflammatory syndrome has been described in Europe and the East Coast of the United States, termed Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MISC). The symptoms and diagnostic lab values of MIS-C resemble those of toxic shock, typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike has a sequence and structure motif highly similar to those of bacterial superantigens, and may directly bind to the T cell receptors. This sequence motif, not present in other coronaviruses, may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19 patients.
     
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.21.109272v1

    The binding epitope on S harbors a sequence motif unique to SARS-CoV-2 (not present in any other SARS coronavirus), which is highly similar in both sequence and structure to bacterial superantigens.

    Some overall intro about bacterial superantigens:

    Superantigens (SAgs) are the most powerful T cell mitogens ever discovered. Concentrations of less than 0·1 pg/ml of a bacterial superantigen are sufficient to stimulate the T lymphocytes in an uncontrolled manner resulting in fever, shock and death.

    There are now 41 bacterial SAgs described in the literature (Table 1) and the number is growing steadily. In addition, a new family of SAg-related proteins has been identified in Staphylococcus aureus that show sequence and structural homology to the ‘classical’ SAgs, but appear to have a quite different role. This review provides a summary of the field to date with some of the more recent discoveries that shed light on the how superantigens are able to trigger such strong T cell responses and the diseases related to SAg intoxication.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808794/

  24. If Trump would have said he wants more quarantine, the Democrats would have argued for “liberating the people”. The fake two party system requires such false conflicts. You can’t complain about the government when half of the country voluntarily validates the system through elections every other year.

    I have yet to see evidence that the American state-imposed half-quarantine made any difference from a self-elected quarantine. This “debate” is a non-subject.

  25. positionings in the political compass of “coronaskeptics” below, but it illustrates my point.

    In this diagram of “coronasceptics”- Bolsonaro, Lukashenko, Boris Johnson and Trump – they are all quite similar leaders to each other (“alpha male buffoon”), so more indication of homogeneity than heterogeneity.

    Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, Putin – none of them are “corona-skeptics”. I assume they haven’t started identifying as leftists/liberals

    Abe, Orban, – are still quite centre-right leaders, and lacking charismatic “alpha male buffoon” aspects of Bolsonaro, Boris Johnson, Luka, Trump, et al.

    While, Putin is something different – he is the archetypal of a centrist, technocratic, politically mainstream leader (he is the most similar ideologically to Merkel).

    And Putin’s IQ is too high to believe in the “anti-coronavirus” amulet that some of the United Russia deputies, or people like Peskov were buying. I.e. Putin is far too smart to believe in that antiscientific kind of hoax.

    Coronaskepticism as a right-wing position

    Unfortunately, it is clear that the ideological behaviour is similar in Russia as in America.

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.

    Then the Russian version of Unz, are believing that coronavirus is a secret hoax of Bill Gates, Jews, 5g networks, the NWO, Reptilians, etc (delete according to the preferences).

    • Replies: @melanf

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.
     
    It is not true. "Young liberals" (in the Russian internet) are conducting a furious (and really harmful) campaign to disrupt anti-epidemic measures. People are taught that "only slaves wear masks" and that masks are a symbol of the slave status imposed by the government. At the same time it is claimed that masks are completely useless and the authorities force people to wear them only because the mayors of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc. secretly own factories for the production of masks. There are constant calls for protests, insubordination of the police, non - payment of taxes, etc. The brazen violation of quarantine is praised (as a fight against tyranny).... All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website
  26. @Kent Nationalist

    The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
     
    That is very disappointing given the Nazis' strong track record in controlling infectious diseases such as Typhus.

    The Soviet Union had the world’s most effective anti-epidemic state capacity, with epidemic surveillance institutes in every major city.

    But how in just a generation, such capabilities can rust.

    Not to say they are representative of normal attitudes in Russia or in the government (fortunately, they are not in either case) – some deputies of the party of power, as well as important officials like Dmitry Peskov (Press Secretary of the President) were buying “anticoronavirus” badges, and wearing these badges even in parliament to protect themselves.

    Apparently, hoaxers on the internet were selling these pieces of plastic, and saying that they are magical badges with Japanese technology that will protect you from the virus. (Of course, it is not even Japanese, but some probably discarded Chinese plastic scrap).

    So it seems some politicians are really stupid enough that they bought these plastic badges on the internet, and believed it would protect them from the virus.

  27. @Jaakko Raipala
    It's not because of Swedish politicians, it's because it's very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven't had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren't prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.

    It’s not because of Swedish politicians, it’s because it’s very hard for a government in Sweden to actually declare emergency powers or to override the judgement of experts. They haven’t had an emergency for centuries so their laws weren’t prepared for one which ironically may turn out to have benefited them as every government that did get emergency powers seems to have used them to wreck their country.

    I agree, but would like to add a few things:

    * It now seems that the IFR for the under-70s is even lower — perhaps many times lower — than suggested by the Chinese data, but even using that, the Swedish strategy of self-isolation for the over-70s made every sense from the beginning. Having a strategy with logic to recommend it and a clear exit plan is obviously an easier sell than an open-ended lockdown with a shocking price-tag and no guarantee of success.

    * Building on point one, the government was successful in getting the Swedish cathedral (media and the academy) on board before the deaths started piling up. This meant that the alarmist headlines we saw in British and American papers were mostly absent in Sweden, which made it easier to hold a steady course in those dark days of early April. I remember heavyweight opinion-maker Lena Melin of Aftonbladet (old-school social democrat) writing then that she was proud of Sweden for standing firm, and she was but one of many. (As it happens, I used the same wording the other day when an old man behind me in the grocery line cursed the Swedish strategy out loud. “How can you be proud of killing people?” he answered as I stepped up to the cash register, which somehow left me speechless. I felt a bit bad afterward for not explaining what I meant, especially given his great age, but I hope he will come around to my view and remember my comment with a smile.)

    * Liberalism and fear of authorianism did play a part, I’m sure. Had France and Netherlands, say, been the first countries to lock down, our distaste of draconian measures would have weakened a bit, but it turned out to be the Chinese, whose authoritarianism most Swedes look at in horror (even sometimes yours truly, it has to be said).

  28. Putin is officially a corona-sceptic according to Western experts and media. They actually lump him in the same group with Trump and Bolsonaro.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Anders Åslund, the archetyphal useful idiot. At least Harvard and the Jews got to plunder Russia, what did he get out of it? DC think-thank tenure?
  29. JSQ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Ron Unz has written about this: https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    The failure of NY in its COVID response was due to governmental incompetence (embodied by its clown of a mayor) and the uniqueness of New York City which, in terms of population density, public-transport utilization, ethnic diversity and international population is totally unlike any other city in the US. People make the mistake of comparing NYC to LA or San Francisco but they’re just not equivalent; NYC is sui generis in America, and it doesn’t surprise me at all they were so hard hit.

  30. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia’s Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April

    Merkel’s Germany is so repressive even the Nazis think it’s gone too far.

    Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, Putin – none of them are “corona-skeptics”

    I was under the impression that Japan hadn’t bothered with much of a shutdown. Maybe they changed their minds after the Olympics were postponed.

  31. German_reader says:
    @Mitleser

    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.
     
    Considering how the German age pyramid looks like and how much the health system costs, I cannot blame them.
    Not even "protecting our voters" argument applies because older Germans tend to vote for CDU/CSU and SocDems.

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting (for instance, banning the use of outdoor play and sports grounds).
    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting

    Agree about the first part, not so much about the second.
    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel’s government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling…but it’s of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in “It’s just a flu” crackpottery or gives the impression that they’d be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because “Everybody is responsible for himself” and “muh liberty”.
    I have to admit even I occasionally feel sympathy for Merkel now given how unhinged some of the criticism about the shutdown measures is, just imagine how most normies will see it who are already inclined anyway to regard Merkel as a competent leader.

    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.

    imo it’s unavoidable to some extent, Germany and other northern countries have to show some solidarity with the south, otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn’t desirable.
    I have to admit though that the wave of anti-German hatred and scapegoating which was the first reaction of so many Italians and Spaniards to the crisis really irritated me, this raises some serious questions imo and ought to be discussed as a problem (but of course won’t).
    French are also getting insufferable…that stupid Le Pen niece Marion Marechal is now talking of a “Latin alliance” against “German-dominated Brussels” (lol), also wants Europe to be a “bridge between the US and Russia” for a common front against China (makes me wonder to what extent she’s associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that “national conservatism” conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth). Almost makes me hope for a second term of Macron, at least he’s more polite when demanding German money.

    • Replies: @whahae

    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel’s government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling…but it’s of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in “It’s just a flu” crackpottery or gives the impression that they’d be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because “Everybody is responsible for himself” and “muh liberty”.
     
    More than one Afd-politician also criticized Merkel for not shutting down fast enough and then later became anti any restrictions. Example from Alice Weidel.
    , @neutral

    which probably still isn’t desirable
     
    Can you point out a single thing of the EU that is good for white people?
    , @Kent Nationalist

    otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn’t desirable.
     
    Why not?

    (makes me wonder to what extent she’s associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that “national conservatism” conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth
     
    Unsurprising given her real father fought for the Zionists in Lebanon. I feel very sorry for Jean-Marie, seeing what has happened to his family and how badly they have treated him to seek Zionist approval.
  32. @Beckow
    It's simple: the corona skeptics are the people who enjoyed pissing of their female assistant principals in high school. The corona quarantine enforcers are the feminized opportunists who advanced by following rules, making more of them, and then enjoying snitching on the rule-breakers. The corona panic gave them a unique opportunity to live their dream - a regimented society with a zero tolerance for mischief, full control and conformism, no risky behaviours, and most definitely no horse play. This is just junior high school on steroids.

    The Western society was ready - things ceased to work almost a decade ago. Hundred years ago we would have a war (and we did) to break the impasse, refresh the blood lines, get rid of the debts, and pour cold water on the simmering hatreds. We can't have one now - you are not going to have a war with the nukes around and with feminized men running the show. So we get the next best (or worst) thing - an endless process aggression, a Kafkaesque nightmare of ever more rules and a pathological fear of any risk.

    That's what you get in a society run by women and for women. People also thought that WWI would be over soon ("by Christmas"), but it dragged on. We could be entering a similar nightmare - a non-war, or a female substitute for war that goes on for years.

    (One anomaly is Sweden, a feminized, byrocratic, rules-obeying, liberal hell-hole. I have no idea how they managed to dodge it this time - maybe there is more to Swedes than we have come to expect. I can't explain it.)

    I enjoyed pissing off my high school principal and I want to DOTR “corona skeptics.” “Corona skeptics” are the D-students who haven’t matured since age 16 and are enraged the fact that they are making less money than the “nerds” they used to look down on. I wish there was a way we could make intelligent critiques of credentialism without it attracting these pinheads who interpret it as meaning it’s a good thing they failed algebra.

    Trumpist nationalism in America is increasingly becoming a form of identity politics for D-students. Ah well, I can only sit on the sidelines and wish European nationalists well. Hell, at this point I even wish Israeli nationalists well.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  33. @Felix Keverich
    Putin is officially a corona-sceptic according to Western experts and media. They actually lump him in the same group with Trump and Bolsonaro.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYs5BDYXkAA_hns.png

    Anders Åslund, the archetyphal useful idiot. At least Harvard and the Jews got to plunder Russia, what did he get out of it? DC think-thank tenure?

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    He gets a cushy job at the Atlantic Council, despite being a complete idiot, who is always wrong about everything. But that's not the point. The point is that Åslund embodies the emerging "conventional wisdom".

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1261928013236776960
  34. @Pericles
    Anders Åslund, the archetyphal useful idiot. At least Harvard and the Jews got to plunder Russia, what did he get out of it? DC think-thank tenure?

    He gets a cushy job at the Atlantic Council, despite being a complete idiot, who is always wrong about everything. But that’s not the point. The point is that Åslund embodies the emerging “conventional wisdom”.

  35. @Dmitry

    positionings in the political compass of “coronaskeptics” below, but it illustrates my point.
     
    In this diagram of "coronasceptics"- Bolsonaro, Lukashenko, Boris Johnson and Trump - they are all quite similar leaders to each other ("alpha male buffoon"), so more indication of homogeneity than heterogeneity.

    Shinzo Abe, Orban, Modi, Putin – none of them are “corona-skeptics”. I assume they haven’t started identifying as leftists/liberals
     
    Abe, Orban, - are still quite centre-right leaders, and lacking charismatic "alpha male buffoon" aspects of Bolsonaro, Boris Johnson, Luka, Trump, et al.

    While, Putin is something different - he is the archetypal of a centrist, technocratic, politically mainstream leader (he is the most similar ideologically to Merkel).

    And Putin's IQ is too high to believe in the "anti-coronavirus" amulet that some of the United Russia deputies, or people like Peskov were buying. I.e. Putin is far too smart to believe in that antiscientific kind of hoax.

    https://static.mk.ru/upload/entities/2020/05/13/18/articles/detailPicture/9e/02/b2/f6/07e9f46da5a30d9f1a84d3b6e1cb2a79.jpg


    Coronaskepticism as a right-wing position

     

    Unfortunately, it is clear that the ideological behaviour is similar in Russia as in America.

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying "it is just a flu".

    Then the Russian version of Unz, are believing that coronavirus is a secret hoax of Bill Gates, Jews, 5g networks, the NWO, Reptilians, etc (delete according to the preferences).

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.

    It is not true. “Young liberals” (in the Russian internet) are conducting a furious (and really harmful) campaign to disrupt anti-epidemic measures. People are taught that “only slaves wear masks” and that masks are a symbol of the slave status imposed by the government. At the same time it is claimed that masks are completely useless and the authorities force people to wear them only because the mayors of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc. secretly own factories for the production of masks. There are constant calls for protests, insubordination of the police, non – payment of taxes, etc. The brazen violation of quarantine is praised (as a fight against tyranny)…. All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website

    • Replies: @melanf
    Here is a typical post, from a typical " Young liberal"

    https://www.woman.ru/psycho/medley6/thread/5256417/
    "The horror!!!! In St. Petersburg, they make you wear masks to ride the subway!Today I went to an individual choreography class with a private teacher. I go every day, and I don't give a damn about self-isolation measures. I can't just sit at home. I can't! So, today I go as usual to the subway, and I have a guard like " girl. put on your mask!" And I answered him with humor: "I like myself well enough without a mask! I am quite beautiful!" And he says "the Law has decreed, wear masks, or we can't let you through!" And because of him, I had to put on this damn mask, that is, spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles, and thus be late for 15 minutes of class. Damn it! I write with the purpose to speak out! This has been annoying the whole circus! When they finally open the Mall, the gym, I need all this. Urgent! And there is no work. In other words, where I worked depends on the fact that the shopping center should work."

    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all "young liberals" should be shot (to improve the genetics of the population)
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I would disagree with both you and Dmitry on this question - just looking at the liberal camp in isolation again reveals there's no unified ideological positions.

    There is one liberal crowd, especially around the Moscow Mayoralty, e.g. open borders/feminist/pro-Western activist Alena Popova, who have been strong supporters of lockdown.

    Then there's the libertarian-ish anti-lockdown and even anti-masks people of whom you speak.
    , @Dmitry

    “Young liberals” (in the Russian internet)
     
    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities - have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.

    Whether in TV Rain, Echo of Moscow, meduza - or with Navalny, Sobchak, Varlamov. There was such a clear consensus in liberal media space and celebrities.


    All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website
     
    That is not specific to opposite websites. After a few weeks of lockdown, all websites were flooded with such comments. In the local newspapers, top rated comments are discussing those claims, and a proportion are about 5g, Bill Gates, etc.

    And in Russia 24's YouTube, even I was reading comments about Jewish vaccines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1YHzACq9c0.


    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all “young liberals” should be shot
     
    In the USSR, the epidemic would have been contained in earliest stages with a quarantine and people who break quarantine can go to a work camp.

    So it would be great to agree with the Stalinists. The sad thing is old guys who usually support Stalin, are same type saying now "it's just a flu".

  36. @melanf

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.
     
    It is not true. "Young liberals" (in the Russian internet) are conducting a furious (and really harmful) campaign to disrupt anti-epidemic measures. People are taught that "only slaves wear masks" and that masks are a symbol of the slave status imposed by the government. At the same time it is claimed that masks are completely useless and the authorities force people to wear them only because the mayors of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc. secretly own factories for the production of masks. There are constant calls for protests, insubordination of the police, non - payment of taxes, etc. The brazen violation of quarantine is praised (as a fight against tyranny).... All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website

    Here is a typical post, from a typical ” Young liberal”

    https://www.woman.ru/psycho/medley6/thread/5256417/
    The horror!!!! In St. Petersburg, they make you wear masks to ride the subway!Today I went to an individual choreography class with a private teacher. I go every day, and I don’t give a damn about self-isolation measures. I can’t just sit at home. I can’t! So, today I go as usual to the subway, and I have a guard like ” girl. put on your mask!” And I answered him with humor: “I like myself well enough without a mask! I am quite beautiful!” And he says “the Law has decreed, wear masks, or we can’t let you through!” And because of him, I had to put on this damn mask, that is, spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles, and thus be late for 15 minutes of class. Damn it! I write with the purpose to speak out! This has been annoying the whole circus! When they finally open the Mall, the gym, I need all this. Urgent! And there is no work. In other words, where I worked depends on the fact that the shopping center should work.”

    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all “young liberals” should be shot (to improve the genetics of the population)

    • Replies: @sudden death

    ...spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles...
     
    what kind of mask costs 100 rubles in RF now? Is that one simple surgical mask she is talking about that costs over 1 euro atm?
  37. @Znzn
    Well corona skeptics tend to be global warming skeptics as well so that makes sense, and unlike the other 2, I will not really call Johnson and Teggell corona hoaxers.

    Well corona skeptics tend to be global warming skeptics as well

    You would think that but is it actually true?

    Maybe the link between corona scepticism and global warming scepticism is also a purely US thing?

    I’m an extreme global warming sceptic but I’m not a corona sceptic. Maybe I’m unusual. Or maybe, not being American, I’m free to make up my mind on various issues without having to do so on partisan political grounds.

  38. @Cyrano
    Why did the west - for the most part - decided to follow in China’s footsteps in response to the Corona? Was the Chinese response the best? Yes and no. In terms of saving lives - yes, in terms of overall impact on the economy and other long term consequences as a result of the lockdown – no. There were 3 main battlefields in the fight against the Corona:
    1. Medical field
    2. Economy
    3. Propaganda field

    China won all 3 of them. Lacking a reliable medical treatment to fight the corona, the west had no choice but to follow China’s example in dealing with the pandemic. Why? Any other response would have been seen and interpreted as the west not caring enough for their citizens and putting more emphasis on saving the economy, than saving lives. Futile effort. Everybody (should) know(s) that China cares more about their people than the west does about theirs. The west just couldn’t afford to hand over to China the victory in the propaganda field, by throwing their citizens under the bus driven by that maniac – the Corona.

    The best response should be judged in light of the information available and the cost of waiting for more information rather than acting. On January 23 with so little information and a virus that spread fast, the at the time shocking decision to lockdown an entire province was an excellent one.

    China has not won any propaganda battles. China’s global reputation has sunk to a 30-year low due to portrayal by the US as lying about deaths and covering up the outbreak. But the US has lost the narrative war too. Pompeo’s feeble attempts to wage information war have made the US look buffoonish. The drop in US credibility in the face of push back by the closest allies is telling. Pompeo’s clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    I guess I should have rephrased it – instead of propaganda war, it should be bragging rights. China definitely won the bragging rights battle by organizing the most successful response to the pandemic among the major powers in the world. US is trying to counter this by waging a propaganda war, but I would give the victory in the propaganda war to those who won the rights to brag.
    , @AnonFromTN

    Pompeo’s clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.
     
    Yea, making Plumpeo the face of the US foreign policy was Trump’s blunder. There is Russian expression “a face begging for a brick”. That describes Plumpeo to a tee.
  39. @Cyrano
    Why did the west - for the most part - decided to follow in China’s footsteps in response to the Corona? Was the Chinese response the best? Yes and no. In terms of saving lives - yes, in terms of overall impact on the economy and other long term consequences as a result of the lockdown – no. There were 3 main battlefields in the fight against the Corona:
    1. Medical field
    2. Economy
    3. Propaganda field

    China won all 3 of them. Lacking a reliable medical treatment to fight the corona, the west had no choice but to follow China’s example in dealing with the pandemic. Why? Any other response would have been seen and interpreted as the west not caring enough for their citizens and putting more emphasis on saving the economy, than saving lives. Futile effort. Everybody (should) know(s) that China cares more about their people than the west does about theirs. The west just couldn’t afford to hand over to China the victory in the propaganda field, by throwing their citizens under the bus driven by that maniac – the Corona.

    When China acted,

    1. there was no clear information that it mainly knocks off the old and sick.

    2. it might’ve been only a China problem, which, among other things, means that the impact on economy cannot be that big as soon as China gets it controlled.

    3. if by this stage China had got 100k or 300k killed, and if it is a China only problem, there can hardly be political stability.

  40. The virus isn’t a hoax … the response of most world “leaders” is the real hoax.

  41. @melanf
    Here is a typical post, from a typical " Young liberal"

    https://www.woman.ru/psycho/medley6/thread/5256417/
    "The horror!!!! In St. Petersburg, they make you wear masks to ride the subway!Today I went to an individual choreography class with a private teacher. I go every day, and I don't give a damn about self-isolation measures. I can't just sit at home. I can't! So, today I go as usual to the subway, and I have a guard like " girl. put on your mask!" And I answered him with humor: "I like myself well enough without a mask! I am quite beautiful!" And he says "the Law has decreed, wear masks, or we can't let you through!" And because of him, I had to put on this damn mask, that is, spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles, and thus be late for 15 minutes of class. Damn it! I write with the purpose to speak out! This has been annoying the whole circus! When they finally open the Mall, the gym, I need all this. Urgent! And there is no work. In other words, where I worked depends on the fact that the shopping center should work."

    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all "young liberals" should be shot (to improve the genetics of the population)

    …spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles…

    what kind of mask costs 100 rubles in RF now? Is that one simple surgical mask she is talking about that costs over 1 euro atm?

    • Replies: @melanf
    A set of disposable mask+gloves costs 39 rubles, a reusable mask costs 140 rubles. Pensioners, large families and all the poor were given 800 rubles per person to buy masks
  42. @sudden death

    ...spend 15 minutes to buy a mask for 100 rubles...
     
    what kind of mask costs 100 rubles in RF now? Is that one simple surgical mask she is talking about that costs over 1 euro atm?

    A set of disposable mask+gloves costs 39 rubles, a reusable mask costs 140 rubles. Pensioners, large families and all the poor were given 800 rubles per person to buy masks

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  43. @German_reader

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting
     
    Agree about the first part, not so much about the second.
    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel's government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling...but it's of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in "It's just a flu" crackpottery or gives the impression that they'd be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because "Everybody is responsible for himself" and "muh liberty".
    I have to admit even I occasionally feel sympathy for Merkel now given how unhinged some of the criticism about the shutdown measures is, just imagine how most normies will see it who are already inclined anyway to regard Merkel as a competent leader.

    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.
     
    imo it's unavoidable to some extent, Germany and other northern countries have to show some solidarity with the south, otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn't desirable.
    I have to admit though that the wave of anti-German hatred and scapegoating which was the first reaction of so many Italians and Spaniards to the crisis really irritated me, this raises some serious questions imo and ought to be discussed as a problem (but of course won't).
    French are also getting insufferable...that stupid Le Pen niece Marion Marechal is now talking of a "Latin alliance" against "German-dominated Brussels" (lol), also wants Europe to be a "bridge between the US and Russia" for a common front against China (makes me wonder to what extent she's associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that "national conservatism" conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth). Almost makes me hope for a second term of Macron, at least he's more polite when demanding German money.

    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel’s government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling…but it’s of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in “It’s just a flu” crackpottery or gives the impression that they’d be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because “Everybody is responsible for himself” and “muh liberty”.

    More than one Afd-politician also criticized Merkel for not shutting down fast enough and then later became anti any restrictions. Example from Alice Weidel.

  44. @German_reader

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting
     
    Agree about the first part, not so much about the second.
    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel's government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling...but it's of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in "It's just a flu" crackpottery or gives the impression that they'd be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because "Everybody is responsible for himself" and "muh liberty".
    I have to admit even I occasionally feel sympathy for Merkel now given how unhinged some of the criticism about the shutdown measures is, just imagine how most normies will see it who are already inclined anyway to regard Merkel as a competent leader.

    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.
     
    imo it's unavoidable to some extent, Germany and other northern countries have to show some solidarity with the south, otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn't desirable.
    I have to admit though that the wave of anti-German hatred and scapegoating which was the first reaction of so many Italians and Spaniards to the crisis really irritated me, this raises some serious questions imo and ought to be discussed as a problem (but of course won't).
    French are also getting insufferable...that stupid Le Pen niece Marion Marechal is now talking of a "Latin alliance" against "German-dominated Brussels" (lol), also wants Europe to be a "bridge between the US and Russia" for a common front against China (makes me wonder to what extent she's associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that "national conservatism" conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth). Almost makes me hope for a second term of Macron, at least he's more polite when demanding German money.

    which probably still isn’t desirable

    Can you point out a single thing of the EU that is good for white people?

  45. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    It’s also hard not to suspect that there’s indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the “who cares, only the old and sick die” kind.

    I agree. It’s one of the creepier and more disturbing aspects of this whole situation.

  46. Hmmm, the CDC just revised its estimate down to .26%.

    That’s roughly 2 times as deadly as the flu. And as testing becomes more widespread, it may go down further. The flu kills children too, so is in some ways worse.

    I was up til now neither a corona skeptic not a corona believer – simply took common sense precautions and didn’t worry about it or think about it too much. I’m in NYC and did my errands as usual.

    But it is looking like the skeptics won this round for the most part, I have to admit.

    Either way, however serious this thing is, the extreme panic definitely says something about our – now global – civilization – and suggests how the current paradigm of extreme scientific control may eventually collapse under its own absurdity.

    • Replies: @128
    Who is the head of the CDC, could it be something to do with Trump inducing the CDC to lower the death rate in order to benefit the it's just the flu argument, or maybe not?
    , @Charon
    Congrats on your 5000th post on unz.
    You're a very thoughtful contributor.
    , @neutral

    the current paradigm of extreme scientific control
     
    There is no such thing, the dominant paradigms are racial equality, blank slatism, self actualisation via self mutilation, how are any of these ideologies (jewish constructs of course) scientific?
    , @HallParvey

    the extreme panic definitely says something about our – now global – civilization
     
    Some people like to be frightened. Roller coasters, bungee jumping, mountain climbing and for the less active, horror movies, are all made to salve the need to be frightened. It's fun.

    Remember that as of 20 years ago, we should have run out of oil. Global warming should, today, have turned New York into the Venice of the West with streets awash and gondolas for transport. And according to Neil Ferguson, seer and prophet, we should all be coughing and sneezing by now.

    It's enough to scare the beJesus out of anybody. And it's on T.V. all day long.
  47. @melanf

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.
     
    It is not true. "Young liberals" (in the Russian internet) are conducting a furious (and really harmful) campaign to disrupt anti-epidemic measures. People are taught that "only slaves wear masks" and that masks are a symbol of the slave status imposed by the government. At the same time it is claimed that masks are completely useless and the authorities force people to wear them only because the mayors of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc. secretly own factories for the production of masks. There are constant calls for protests, insubordination of the police, non - payment of taxes, etc. The brazen violation of quarantine is praised (as a fight against tyranny).... All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website

    I would disagree with both you and Dmitry on this question – just looking at the liberal camp in isolation again reveals there’s no unified ideological positions.

    There is one liberal crowd, especially around the Moscow Mayoralty, e.g. open borders/feminist/pro-Western activist Alena Popova, who have been strong supporters of lockdown.

    Then there’s the libertarian-ish anti-lockdown and even anti-masks people of whom you speak.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    liberal camp in isolation again reveals there’s no unified ideological positions.
     
    All the mainstream liberal media camp and celebrities (in the Russian internet) were arguing for stronger lockdown - I was reading it everyday for weeks.

    one liberal crowd, especially around the Moscow Mayoralty, e.g. open borders/feminist/
     
    And the anti-open borders opposition - the same view (https://www.znak.com/2020-03-13/aleksey_navalnyy_prizval_sergeya_sobyanina_vvesti_karantin_v_moskovskih_shkolah).

    Crazy panicking about need for far stronger lockdown and quarantine is also view of the really opposition liberals (e.g. Novaya Gazeta )


    there’s the libertarian-ish anti-lockdown and even anti-masks people of whom you speak.
     
    Libertarians are a new fashion import (for Russia, not for America), but they are not authors on websites or newspapers I skim (mainstream websites, apart from you). Libertarians views are a bit different personality type from liberal ones.

    Liberals in Russia are usually hidden authoritarians; just they are not authoritarians for the current authorities.

  48. @German_reader

    The government response was bad: first underreacting in the first months, then overreacting
     
    Agree about the first part, not so much about the second.
    The incompetence and inaction of Merkel's government from January to almost mid-March was pretty appalling...but it's of course hard to criticize that when much of the opposition believes in "It's just a flu" crackpottery or gives the impression that they'd be fine with thousands of pensioners painfully choking to death, because "Everybody is responsible for himself" and "muh liberty".
    I have to admit even I occasionally feel sympathy for Merkel now given how unhinged some of the criticism about the shutdown measures is, just imagine how most normies will see it who are already inclined anyway to regard Merkel as a competent leader.

    And now they are going to sell out to Brüssel.
     
    imo it's unavoidable to some extent, Germany and other northern countries have to show some solidarity with the south, otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn't desirable.
    I have to admit though that the wave of anti-German hatred and scapegoating which was the first reaction of so many Italians and Spaniards to the crisis really irritated me, this raises some serious questions imo and ought to be discussed as a problem (but of course won't).
    French are also getting insufferable...that stupid Le Pen niece Marion Marechal is now talking of a "Latin alliance" against "German-dominated Brussels" (lol), also wants Europe to be a "bridge between the US and Russia" for a common front against China (makes me wonder to what extent she's associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that "national conservatism" conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth). Almost makes me hope for a second term of Macron, at least he's more polite when demanding German money.

    otherwise the entire EU project is over, which probably still isn’t desirable.

    Why not?

    (makes me wonder to what extent she’s associated with American neocons and Zionists, she spoke at that “national conservatism” conference in Rome which was organized by Yoram Hazony and AEI people like Chris Demuth

    Unsurprising given her real father fought for the Zionists in Lebanon. I feel very sorry for Jean-Marie, seeing what has happened to his family and how badly they have treated him to seek Zionist approval.

  49. @AaronB
    Hmmm, the CDC just revised its estimate down to .26%.

    That's roughly 2 times as deadly as the flu. And as testing becomes more widespread, it may go down further. The flu kills children too, so is in some ways worse.

    I was up til now neither a corona skeptic not a corona believer - simply took common sense precautions and didn't worry about it or think about it too much. I'm in NYC and did my errands as usual.

    But it is looking like the skeptics won this round for the most part, I have to admit.

    Either way, however serious this thing is, the extreme panic definitely says something about our - now global - civilization - and suggests how the current paradigm of extreme scientific control may eventually collapse under its own absurdity.

    Who is the head of the CDC, could it be something to do with Trump inducing the CDC to lower the death rate in order to benefit the it’s just the flu argument, or maybe not?

  50. 100,000 dead dead with 0.25% IFR implies that 40,000,000 has or had coronavirus in the US, does it should believeable that 15% of all Americans has or had coronavirus?

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    100,000 dead with 0.25% IFR implies that 40,000,000 has or had coronavirus in the US, does it should believable that 15% of all Americans has or had coronavirus?
     
    Both claims might have about the same credibility. Put differently - the 100 000 dead might be as dubious as the 40 million infected. (Dubiosity equaling out.)
  51. In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy, Labour and left wing supporters generally have been the biggest opponents of it. It’s the same in most other European countries as far as I can tell.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    You are incorrect; the other parties have been criticising the handling of lockdown (although it has had very little attention) but they have not been opposed to the lockdown itself.
    , @dfordoom

    In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy,
     
    The Conservative Party in Britain seems to be a bizarre mixture of economic neo-liberalism, authoritarianism and staggering incompetence. Which perhaps explains why they went for the Let 'Er Rip approach then changed course (much too late) to particularly draconian lockdowns. Had they gone for lockdowns much sooner they might be over the worst of it by now. That's what happens when you have a clown like Boris Johnson as prime minister.

    In Australia the right-wing (and economically neo-liberal) Morrison government has supported lockdowns but mostly administered with some common sense. In New South Wales (where I am) the right-wing government has been pro-lockdown, but again combined with common sense (small stores have remained open). In Victoria the loony left government has been pro-lockdown but with not quite so much common sense.

    And in New Zealand the loony left government has acted decisively and effectively and has probably handled the situation better than any it's been handled in any other country.

    So in Australasia left and right seem to be irrelevant as far as the corona situation is concerned. Both sides of politics have responded sanely. The issue has been treated as a public health crisis rather than a political issue.
  52. @Europe Europa
    In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy, Labour and left wing supporters generally have been the biggest opponents of it. It's the same in most other European countries as far as I can tell.

    You are incorrect; the other parties have been criticising the handling of lockdown (although it has had very little attention) but they have not been opposed to the lockdown itself.

  53. Both Alberta and British Columbia (the far ends of the right-left spectrum in Canada) took the virus seriously. The former effectively suppressed it and the latter is the leader in tests per capita. The biggest outbreak in Alberta, when infections were already trending down in the general population, was caused by greedy capitalists at Cargill meat packing plant (so, the bottom right square of the political compass) failing to provide their workers with protection equipment. The right wing Prairie provinces had very low infection and death rates, mostly (as the La Loche outbreak showed) thanks to blocking access to Aboriginal communities (social equivalents of US black ghettos). The nationalistic Quebec has surpassed the US and is second only to Spain in infection rate, 4th in the world in death rate… but most of it is in left-libertarian Montreal. So much that the areas outside it felt safe to reopen schools on May 11. Ontario swings from left to right and back but both are embarrassingly incompetent and lazy – I think the outcome would be the same whoever was in power. They dispersed a large crowd in a Toronto park on Sunday (with some participants urinating and defecating in the neighboring backyards)… and the mayor of Toronto was photographed in the middle of it with the mask on his neck. That’s about how serious the leaders are about everything. I don’t know much about the Atlantics’ politics but they all contained the disease very well: a nursing home outbreak in NS and a freak superspreader incident in NL made most of the numbers and since then the virus effectively died down.

    In the US, both right wing Alaska and left wing Hawaii avoided the mainland shitshow and quietly brought Corona-chan down to under 5 daily cases, with 10 and 17 total deaths respectively. Curiously, the biggest Alaskan anti-lockdown protest was done in cars (I guess when people live in a place where simple weather or a random polar bear can kill them, they learn that you shouldn’t fool around with Nature).

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  54. @AaronB
    Hmmm, the CDC just revised its estimate down to .26%.

    That's roughly 2 times as deadly as the flu. And as testing becomes more widespread, it may go down further. The flu kills children too, so is in some ways worse.

    I was up til now neither a corona skeptic not a corona believer - simply took common sense precautions and didn't worry about it or think about it too much. I'm in NYC and did my errands as usual.

    But it is looking like the skeptics won this round for the most part, I have to admit.

    Either way, however serious this thing is, the extreme panic definitely says something about our - now global - civilization - and suggests how the current paradigm of extreme scientific control may eventually collapse under its own absurdity.

    Congrats on your 5000th post on unz.
    You’re a very thoughtful contributor.

    • Thanks: AaronB
    • LOL: reiner Tor
  55. @AaronB
    Hmmm, the CDC just revised its estimate down to .26%.

    That's roughly 2 times as deadly as the flu. And as testing becomes more widespread, it may go down further. The flu kills children too, so is in some ways worse.

    I was up til now neither a corona skeptic not a corona believer - simply took common sense precautions and didn't worry about it or think about it too much. I'm in NYC and did my errands as usual.

    But it is looking like the skeptics won this round for the most part, I have to admit.

    Either way, however serious this thing is, the extreme panic definitely says something about our - now global - civilization - and suggests how the current paradigm of extreme scientific control may eventually collapse under its own absurdity.

    the current paradigm of extreme scientific control

    There is no such thing, the dominant paradigms are racial equality, blank slatism, self actualisation via self mutilation, how are any of these ideologies (jewish constructs of course) scientific?

  56. A lot of people seem to think the end result of all this will be a technocratic, NWO society straight out of 1984, but doesn’t that ignore the demographic realities of most Western countries? For such a regimented society to work and be maintained you need a disciplined, homogeneous population who all share the same common goal and ideals, like China for instance, that is very far from the US and UK, and most other Western nations.

    Are these sorts of authoritarian measures really sustainable long term in Western cities many of which are 60%+ third world non-white?

  57. @Beckow
    I am not going to dismiss your fear, people adapt to risk differently. But we have actual data about what corona does, who it kills, how many, how old, etc...none of the data justifies full shutdowns. Corona is not dangerous for the young, so why should they stop their lives., forgo incomes, socialising, studying, etc...?

    It is dangerous - although not terribly fatal - for the old and sick. Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn't over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?

    Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?

    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely – the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    The Western society was ready

    Many non-Western societies locked down, starting with China. So you need an explanation equally valid for India, Russia, China, Serbia etc.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Yes, this. When we talk of "segregating the elderly", we are talking - if it works - of trying to redistribute the "center of gravity" of infections towards younger ages. The end result in terms of deaths will be in the range of perhaps a halving, not orders of magnitude.
    , @Swedish Family

    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.
     
    Lots of straw men and odd assumptions in this paragraph.

    1. No one is saying that the self-isolation strategy is foolproof. We are saying that it's the least bad option on the table and that the numbers suggest that it should lead -- if well executed -- to an acceptable level of deaths among the old. "Perfection is the enemy of good."

    2. With a theoretical R0 of 2.5--3.0 over 7--14 days, say, the virus is nowhere near as contagious as you suggest. So long as you keep up the self-isolation and exercise caution when out in public, the risk of your catching it -- even over the span of a year -- is very, very small.

    3. It does take months to get to herd immunity, but most elders in Western countries won't be that badly off. They will pass the summer in their country homes, only seeing others when they go grocery shopping once a week.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely – the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.
     
    This is clearly not true of Sweden, unless you find <300 deaths among 100,000+ infected eyebrow-raising (and many, perhaps most, of these would have been seriously ill even before catching the virus). Recall that at least 0.5M Swedes were infected by mid-April and then look at the death figures by age group as of May 26:

    0--9: 0
    10--19: 0
    20--29: 8
    30--39: 12
    40--49: 39
    50--59: 129
    60--69: 294
    70--79: 909
    80--89: 1,694
    90+: 1,039

    This virus would clearly be met with a shrug if it wasn't so deadly for the over-70s. Those are the only ones we should focus on, and they sadly appear to have been dramatically overrepresented among those who first caught the virus. A graph from yesterday's Public Health Agency report gives you an idea:

    https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/globalassets/statistik-uppfoljning/smittsamma-sjukdomar/veckorapporter-covid-19/2020/vecko_aldersincidens.png
    Confirmed cases by age group for the weeks 6-20 (i.e. the weeks of Feb 3 to May 11).
    , @Dmitry

    you cannot hermetically separate them
     
    It's possible in communities with small numbers of old people, to evacuate them - as in Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Ghetto - Bnei Brak in Israel. (Although this was just a disaster management after Haredim lack of social distance created a zombie apocalypse scenario with coronavirus inside the centre of Israel). And then surround the ghetto with the military.

    Below the more tag I will copypaste a compilation of my earlier comments on how they have separated the infection hotzone ghetto from the older population city of Tel Aviv:

    In the Haredi city of Bnei Brak (population 200000) in Israel, there was apparently 38% of the population infected, without Wuhan/Bergamo/New York mass death. So they might have achieved already herd immunity in Bnei Brak. But then I read that there were only 4500 old people in the city (which were evacuated from the city by the military) and the median age there is 18-19 years old. This African gypsy demographic profile should result in a very low infection fatality rate – but is not generalizable to more “conventional” nationalities.

    Claims that 38% of Bnei Brak in Israel was infected, if true, would presumably have resulted with a much lower infection fatality ratio (if indeed they had achieved 38% infection rates – which itself would only attain herd immunity if rate of infection of the virus was 1,613), only because the median age in that city is 18-19 and the military evacuated the small number of old people there.

    Bnei Brak (median age 18-19) was sealed by the army, so it could not infect more vulnerable Tel Aviv (median age 35), with exit points of the city blocked with soldiers.


    Military to evacuate 4,500 elderly Bnei Brak residents to quarantine hotels

    The Israeli military will remove some 4,500 people above the age of 80 from the predominantly ultra-Orthodox city of Bnei Brak, placing those residents most at risk from the coronavirus in state-run isolation hotels…

    “The coronavirus pandemic is hitting Bnei Brak. The problem is the elderly; the elderly are in mortal danger, which is why we decided to send the IDF and the Home Front Command in an operation to extract the elderly from Bnei Brak,” Bennett said in a statement.
     

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/military-to-evacuate-4500-elderly-bnei-brak-residents-to-quarantine-hotels/


    -

    This requires using a strict "Soviet" style of quarantine, where the authorities block the streets into the city.

    https://i.imgur.com/hK2hc2L.jpg

    In the USSR, a whole city could be rapidly sealed by the army, if there was such an epidemic. But today in Russia, the military were not used to achieve any quarantines of infected areas, and the virus has spread quite easily. (What a bad value for money having such a large military, if it is not sufficiently used for civil purposes except parades?)

  58. @reiner Tor

    Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?
     
    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely - the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    The Western society was ready
     
    Many non-Western societies locked down, starting with China. So you need an explanation equally valid for India, Russia, China, Serbia etc.

    Yes, this. When we talk of “segregating the elderly”, we are talking – if it works – of trying to redistribute the “center of gravity” of infections towards younger ages. The end result in terms of deaths will be in the range of perhaps a halving, not orders of magnitude.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...Because you cannot hermetically separate them (the old and sick)
     
    We cannot do anything 100%. That argument reminds me of a man who points to the biggest rock because he doesn't plan to lift it. It is a way to avoid responsibility. To keep the old and sick segregated until it is safer is common sense - you can offer them remote places with staff that agrees to be separated, avoid family contact, use extreme protection measures when they see a doctor, etc...

    None of the choices we are facing are ideal. Focusing on isolating those who are mostly at risk with corona is rational. You can give them a choice, isolate or take a chance.

    The risk for the under 60 is low. It's not pleasant and there could be long-term consequences - but there are long-term consequences for smoking, eating refined sugar, drinking in excess, or stress at work. People still do it - they even freely do it to each other. We have not forbidden any of it.

    What I meant by 'West was ready' is the dysfunctional state most Western societies have been for a few years. There was a sense before corona that it wasn't working - pyramid economics, bad situation for the young, inability to form families, huge debts, gender idiocy, open borders to anyone from the Third World and resulting broken labor markets, etc... That made reaction to corona more extreme than in normal times. There is a desire to use it to change things, some of it among the young who see no point in restarting status quo ante. For younger people this is the long-awaited 'boomer plague', so why not keep it going. China, Russia have their own problems, but they don't map cleanly into the situation in the West. Without that context, corona would not be used as a catalyst for what currently appears as a rather dramatic economic collapse.

  59. @china-russia-all-the-way
    The best response should be judged in light of the information available and the cost of waiting for more information rather than acting. On January 23 with so little information and a virus that spread fast, the at the time shocking decision to lockdown an entire province was an excellent one.

    China has not won any propaganda battles. China's global reputation has sunk to a 30-year low due to portrayal by the US as lying about deaths and covering up the outbreak. But the US has lost the narrative war too. Pompeo's feeble attempts to wage information war have made the US look buffoonish. The drop in US credibility in the face of push back by the closest allies is telling. Pompeo's clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.

    I guess I should have rephrased it – instead of propaganda war, it should be bragging rights. China definitely won the bragging rights battle by organizing the most successful response to the pandemic among the major powers in the world. US is trying to counter this by waging a propaganda war, but I would give the victory in the propaganda war to those who won the rights to brag.

  60. @Europe Europa
    In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy, Labour and left wing supporters generally have been the biggest opponents of it. It's the same in most other European countries as far as I can tell.

    In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy,

    The Conservative Party in Britain seems to be a bizarre mixture of economic neo-liberalism, authoritarianism and staggering incompetence. Which perhaps explains why they went for the Let ‘Er Rip approach then changed course (much too late) to particularly draconian lockdowns. Had they gone for lockdowns much sooner they might be over the worst of it by now. That’s what happens when you have a clown like Boris Johnson as prime minister.

    In Australia the right-wing (and economically neo-liberal) Morrison government has supported lockdowns but mostly administered with some common sense. In New South Wales (where I am) the right-wing government has been pro-lockdown, but again combined with common sense (small stores have remained open). In Victoria the loony left government has been pro-lockdown but with not quite so much common sense.

    And in New Zealand the loony left government has acted decisively and effectively and has probably handled the situation better than any it’s been handled in any other country.

    So in Australasia left and right seem to be irrelevant as far as the corona situation is concerned. Both sides of politics have responded sanely. The issue has been treated as a public health crisis rather than a political issue.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @gfhändel
    Treating the issue as a public health crisis makes it political.
  61. @128
    100,000 dead dead with 0.25% IFR implies that 40,000,000 has or had coronavirus in the US, does it should believeable that 15% of all Americans has or had coronavirus?

    100,000 dead with 0.25% IFR implies that 40,000,000 has or had coronavirus in the US, does it should believable that 15% of all Americans has or had coronavirus?

    Both claims might have about the same credibility. Put differently – the 100 000 dead might be as dubious as the 40 million infected. (Dubiosity equaling out.)

  62. @melanf

    Young liberals are agitating for more strong anti-epidemic measures, while the kind of old conservative guys (in the Russian internet) as in the American internet are saying “it is just a flu”.
     
    It is not true. "Young liberals" (in the Russian internet) are conducting a furious (and really harmful) campaign to disrupt anti-epidemic measures. People are taught that "only slaves wear masks" and that masks are a symbol of the slave status imposed by the government. At the same time it is claimed that masks are completely useless and the authorities force people to wear them only because the mayors of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc. secretly own factories for the production of masks. There are constant calls for protests, insubordination of the police, non - payment of taxes, etc. The brazen violation of quarantine is praised (as a fight against tyranny).... All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website

    “Young liberals” (in the Russian internet)

    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities – have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.

    Whether in TV Rain, Echo of Moscow, meduza – or with Navalny, Sobchak, Varlamov. There was such a clear consensus in liberal media space and celebrities.

    All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website

    That is not specific to opposite websites. After a few weeks of lockdown, all websites were flooded with such comments. In the local newspapers, top rated comments are discussing those claims, and a proportion are about 5g, Bill Gates, etc.

    And in Russia 24’s YouTube, even I was reading comments about Jewish vaccines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1YHzACq9c0.

    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all “young liberals” should be shot

    In the USSR, the epidemic would have been contained in earliest stages with a quarantine and people who break quarantine can go to a work camp.

    So it would be great to agree with the Stalinists. The sad thing is old guys who usually support Stalin, are same type saying now “it’s just a flu”.

    • Replies: @melanf

    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities – have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.
     
    Almost all media organs and celebrities in Russia regardless of their political views supported (at least in words) more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March. So this is not an indicator at all.

    If we consider not the celebriti, but the ordinary public, then the "young liberals" are the worst part of the population of Russia, systematically working to disrupt anti-epidemic measures
  63. @china-russia-all-the-way
    The best response should be judged in light of the information available and the cost of waiting for more information rather than acting. On January 23 with so little information and a virus that spread fast, the at the time shocking decision to lockdown an entire province was an excellent one.

    China has not won any propaganda battles. China's global reputation has sunk to a 30-year low due to portrayal by the US as lying about deaths and covering up the outbreak. But the US has lost the narrative war too. Pompeo's feeble attempts to wage information war have made the US look buffoonish. The drop in US credibility in the face of push back by the closest allies is telling. Pompeo's clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.

    Pompeo’s clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.

    Yea, making Plumpeo the face of the US foreign policy was Trump’s blunder. There is Russian expression “a face begging for a brick”. That describes Plumpeo to a tee.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYt5uffVcAEOLiI.jpg

    https://twitter.com/Whtapl/status/1264238505867087872?s=20

  64. @Anatoly Karlin
    I would disagree with both you and Dmitry on this question - just looking at the liberal camp in isolation again reveals there's no unified ideological positions.

    There is one liberal crowd, especially around the Moscow Mayoralty, e.g. open borders/feminist/pro-Western activist Alena Popova, who have been strong supporters of lockdown.

    Then there's the libertarian-ish anti-lockdown and even anti-masks people of whom you speak.

    liberal camp in isolation again reveals there’s no unified ideological positions.

    All the mainstream liberal media camp and celebrities (in the Russian internet) were arguing for stronger lockdown – I was reading it everyday for weeks.

    one liberal crowd, especially around the Moscow Mayoralty, e.g. open borders/feminist/

    And the anti-open borders opposition – the same view (https://www.znak.com/2020-03-13/aleksey_navalnyy_prizval_sergeya_sobyanina_vvesti_karantin_v_moskovskih_shkolah).

    Crazy panicking about need for far stronger lockdown and quarantine is also view of the really opposition liberals (e.g. Novaya Gazeta )

    there’s the libertarian-ish anti-lockdown and even anti-masks people of whom you speak.

    Libertarians are a new fashion import (for Russia, not for America), but they are not authors on websites or newspapers I skim (mainstream websites, apart from you). Libertarians views are a bit different personality type from liberal ones.

    Liberals in Russia are usually hidden authoritarians; just they are not authoritarians for the current authorities.

  65. @reiner Tor

    Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?
     
    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely - the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    The Western society was ready
     
    Many non-Western societies locked down, starting with China. So you need an explanation equally valid for India, Russia, China, Serbia etc.

    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    Lots of straw men and odd assumptions in this paragraph.

    1. No one is saying that the self-isolation strategy is foolproof. We are saying that it’s the least bad option on the table and that the numbers suggest that it should lead — if well executed — to an acceptable level of deaths among the old. “Perfection is the enemy of good.”

    2. With a theoretical R0 of 2.5–3.0 over 7–14 days, say, the virus is nowhere near as contagious as you suggest. So long as you keep up the self-isolation and exercise caution when out in public, the risk of your catching it — even over the span of a year — is very, very small.

    3. It does take months to get to herd immunity, but most elders in Western countries won’t be that badly off. They will pass the summer in their country homes, only seeing others when they go grocery shopping once a week.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely – the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    This is clearly not true of Sweden, unless you find <300 deaths among 100,000+ infected eyebrow-raising (and many, perhaps most, of these would have been seriously ill even before catching the virus). Recall that at least 0.5M Swedes were infected by mid-April and then look at the death figures by age group as of May 26:

    0–9: 0
    10–19: 0
    20–29: 8
    30–39: 12
    40–49: 39
    50–59: 129
    60–69: 294
    70–79: 909
    80–89: 1,694
    90+: 1,039

    This virus would clearly be met with a shrug if it wasn't so deadly for the over-70s. Those are the only ones we should focus on, and they sadly appear to have been dramatically overrepresented among those who first caught the virus. A graph from yesterday's Public Health Agency report gives you an idea:


    Confirmed cases by age group for the weeks 6-20 (i.e. the weeks of Feb 3 to May 11).

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.
  66. @reiner Tor

    Why not focus the quarantine on them? why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?
     
    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely - the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.

    The Western society was ready
     
    Many non-Western societies locked down, starting with China. So you need an explanation equally valid for India, Russia, China, Serbia etc.

    you cannot hermetically separate them

    It’s possible in communities with small numbers of old people, to evacuate them – as in Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Ghetto – Bnei Brak in Israel. (Although this was just a disaster management after Haredim lack of social distance created a zombie apocalypse scenario with coronavirus inside the centre of Israel). And then surround the ghetto with the military.

    Below the more tag I will copypaste a compilation of my earlier comments on how they have separated the infection hotzone ghetto from the older population city of Tel Aviv:

    [MORE]

    In the Haredi city of Bnei Brak (population 200000) in Israel, there was apparently 38% of the population infected, without Wuhan/Bergamo/New York mass death. So they might have achieved already herd immunity in Bnei Brak. But then I read that there were only 4500 old people in the city (which were evacuated from the city by the military) and the median age there is 18-19 years old. This African gypsy demographic profile should result in a very low infection fatality rate – but is not generalizable to more “conventional” nationalities.

    Claims that 38% of Bnei Brak in Israel was infected, if true, would presumably have resulted with a much lower infection fatality ratio (if indeed they had achieved 38% infection rates – which itself would only attain herd immunity if rate of infection of the virus was 1,613), only because the median age in that city is 18-19 and the military evacuated the small number of old people there.

    Bnei Brak (median age 18-19) was sealed by the army, so it could not infect more vulnerable Tel Aviv (median age 35), with exit points of the city blocked with soldiers.

    Military to evacuate 4,500 elderly Bnei Brak residents to quarantine hotels

    The Israeli military will remove some 4,500 people above the age of 80 from the predominantly ultra-Orthodox city of Bnei Brak, placing those residents most at risk from the coronavirus in state-run isolation hotels…

    “The coronavirus pandemic is hitting Bnei Brak. The problem is the elderly; the elderly are in mortal danger, which is why we decided to send the IDF and the Home Front Command in an operation to extract the elderly from Bnei Brak,” Bennett said in a statement.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/military-to-evacuate-4500-elderly-bnei-brak-residents-to-quarantine-hotels/

    This requires using a strict “Soviet” style of quarantine, where the authorities block the streets into the city.

    In the USSR, a whole city could be rapidly sealed by the army, if there was such an epidemic. But today in Russia, the military were not used to achieve any quarantines of infected areas, and the virus has spread quite easily. (What a bad value for money having such a large military, if it is not sufficiently used for civil purposes except parades?)

  67. @AnonFromTN

    Pompeo’s clumsy attempt to claim the virus is man made quickly followed by a stuttering retraction should be infamous.
     
    Yea, making Plumpeo the face of the US foreign policy was Trump’s blunder. There is Russian expression “a face begging for a brick”. That describes Plumpeo to a tee.

    [MORE]

  68. @A123

    Trump changes his opinions with the wind.
     
    That is a bit dramatic. How about:

    Trump adapted his response as better data became available.

    During the first few days of the WUHAN-19 media story there was minimal information. Many leaders, including Trump, made incorrect decisions on that limited data.
    ____

    I still think that Trump owes Governor Kemp of Georgia an apology. Trump has shifted to Kemp's position on re-opening.

    On the other hand, Kemp's re-election campaign could get good mileage out of a "Trump Doesn't Like Me" message, especially in Atlanta and surrounding areas.

    PEACE 😷

    During the first few days of the WUHAN-19 media story there was minimal information

    There was a deluge of information, all contradictory. Rampant speculation ran riot. There were going to be 50,000 people dead by next week if Trump didn’t do something. Or 80,000.

    He did. Sensibly, he listened to a University Expert. And acted according to the advice he was given. And quite possibly took the best available course of action.

    Trump has enemies, some of whom would be more than pleased if he died from the effects of Corona virus. Quite a few work for the alphabet news media where much of the speculative and contradictory “information” is created. Out of thin air.

    Trump changes his opinions with the wind.

    That is a bit dramatic. How about:

    Trump adapted his response as better data became available.

    See how it can be done if the President were someone like B. Obama.

  69. @German_reader
    In Germany it's definitely more of a right-wing issue than anything else, notwithstanding recent moves by Thuringia's commie government to drop most restrictions on 6 June.
    Mainstream liberals of the FDP are the most vehement opponents of shutdown measures among the non-marginal parties, coming up with such gems as "If you're afraid, stay at home". Liberal and libertarian-minded media of a somewhat more "dissident" (that is strongly anti-Merkel) cast also are now pushing the "shutdown was a mistake, an unnecessary economic disaster" line, with ludicrous claims about rising numbers of suicides, "between 5000 and 125 000 people who have died or might die" due to the postponement of medical operations and potential shortages of drinking water.
    So far, so predictable, after all what else to expect from people who've got nothing on their mind but money and their precious economic status. What's more surprising is that the collectivist part of the right has also completely adopted this stance. The Nazi wing of the AfD has also come out against restrictions, with Thuringia's Björn Höcke calling for an end to shutdown measures already on 22 April, and also doubting the efficacy of mask wearing.
    Sezession, the major "new right" magazine in Germany, close to the identitarians, is now regularly running pieces about the dangers of a "dictatorship of health" where masks are seen as a symbol for "muzzling citizens". Oh, and we all have to die anyway eventually, so what's the point of restrictions?
    Others like Martin Lichtmesz (one of the premier German-speaking identitarians on Twitter) approvingly retweet comments about how Covid-19 is no problem, because many more people are dying of cardiovascular diseases and cancer...apart from that ignoring the issue and focusing on their usual hobbyhorses like American race controversies or Israel.
    It's also hard not to suspect that there's indeed a social darwinist undercurrent among many right-wingers of the "who cares, only the old and sick die" kind.
    imo the German right has failed completely in this crisis, totally discredited itself as a bunch of either liberal "muh economy" crybabies or obsessive retards who are unable to deal with an unforessen crisis that isn't connected to their ever so profound musings about identity. Personally I'll have to reconsider my electoral support for those people, and I doubt I'm the only one.
    So no, unfortunately it's not just an American problem (even though the American case is of course bizarre beyond anything one could have imagined, hard to respect American right-wingers given their callous stupidity).

    AK: I mean, this is a very good comment, so removing the More tag. Hope that's OK.

    That is also the line some of the paid for anons are touting now in the comments section.

    First it is nothing, China is lying.

    Then it is just the flu. No worries

    Once death tallies went up, they died of pre conditions. This is a hoax. This is even after trump changed tactics and public statements. Chinese numbers are fake even though other Asian countries are doing just as well.

    Deaths numbers are now close to 100k in the USA. They have doubled down, that the partial lockdown n social distancing has caused all the spikes in death compare to last decade’s avg flu death.

    They can always come up with the stupidest arguments to excuse the deaths.

  70. “why couldn’t over 70 (or whatever age you pick) be safely separated until it blows over or they can be vaccinated?”

    You cannot pick an age, because, in the parlance of constitutional lawyers, that is both over-inclusive and under-inclusive. A person with the riskiest comorbidities who is under an age cutoff is more vulnerable than is a person who is above that age cutoff and without those comorbidities.

    The real issue is whether person X, who is not vulnerable, has an obligation to protect the health of person Y, who is vulnerable. Person X points out that he is not a fireman, policeman, or rescue swimmer, and feels he should not incur harm in order to protect a stranger. The lockdown/new-normal view is, Sorry, X, but we are all rescue swimmers now. The opposite viewpoint is that it is the obligation of Y to protect his OWN health.

  71. @Swedish Family

    Because you cannot hermetically separate them. The idea is to reduce the R0 factor below 1.0, and that way eliminate the virus. But it’s never 0, because such extreme social distancing is impossible, it was impossible in Wuhan either. If it’s ravaging everyone except the elderly, then the elderly need to be 100% separated. But it’s impossible. It’d be impossible even if the elderly lived in separate apartments (many live in nursery homes, others with their adult children or grandchildren, etc.), because they need to occasionally leave their homes. For example to visit a doctor. It takes several months, perhaps a year even, to reach herd immunity, so if everyone young gets the virus, the elderly get it, too.
     
    Lots of straw men and odd assumptions in this paragraph.

    1. No one is saying that the self-isolation strategy is foolproof. We are saying that it's the least bad option on the table and that the numbers suggest that it should lead -- if well executed -- to an acceptable level of deaths among the old. "Perfection is the enemy of good."

    2. With a theoretical R0 of 2.5--3.0 over 7--14 days, say, the virus is nowhere near as contagious as you suggest. So long as you keep up the self-isolation and exercise caution when out in public, the risk of your catching it -- even over the span of a year -- is very, very small.

    3. It does take months to get to herd immunity, but most elders in Western countries won't be that badly off. They will pass the summer in their country homes, only seeing others when they go grocery shopping once a week.

    The virus might cause longer term health complications as well (we don’t know, you don’t know either, but seems very likely – the question is to what extent), and is already quite lethal to people 50-65 (so those not yet retired, in many jobs, including among doctors or engineers, these are often the most valuable workers), and even for the 30-40 age group seems like the equivalent of hundreds of flights on board a 737 MAX.
     
    This is clearly not true of Sweden, unless you find <300 deaths among 100,000+ infected eyebrow-raising (and many, perhaps most, of these would have been seriously ill even before catching the virus). Recall that at least 0.5M Swedes were infected by mid-April and then look at the death figures by age group as of May 26:

    0--9: 0
    10--19: 0
    20--29: 8
    30--39: 12
    40--49: 39
    50--59: 129
    60--69: 294
    70--79: 909
    80--89: 1,694
    90+: 1,039

    This virus would clearly be met with a shrug if it wasn't so deadly for the over-70s. Those are the only ones we should focus on, and they sadly appear to have been dramatically overrepresented among those who first caught the virus. A graph from yesterday's Public Health Agency report gives you an idea:

    https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/globalassets/statistik-uppfoljning/smittsamma-sjukdomar/veckorapporter-covid-19/2020/vecko_aldersincidens.png
    Confirmed cases by age group for the weeks 6-20 (i.e. the weeks of Feb 3 to May 11).

    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.
     
    I agree, of course, and this failure merits a public inquiry. Hospitals only began shutting out visitors in early March, for instance, which seems to me at least a month too late.
  72. @AaronB
    Hmmm, the CDC just revised its estimate down to .26%.

    That's roughly 2 times as deadly as the flu. And as testing becomes more widespread, it may go down further. The flu kills children too, so is in some ways worse.

    I was up til now neither a corona skeptic not a corona believer - simply took common sense precautions and didn't worry about it or think about it too much. I'm in NYC and did my errands as usual.

    But it is looking like the skeptics won this round for the most part, I have to admit.

    Either way, however serious this thing is, the extreme panic definitely says something about our - now global - civilization - and suggests how the current paradigm of extreme scientific control may eventually collapse under its own absurdity.

    the extreme panic definitely says something about our – now global – civilization

    Some people like to be frightened. Roller coasters, bungee jumping, mountain climbing and for the less active, horror movies, are all made to salve the need to be frightened. It’s fun.

    Remember that as of 20 years ago, we should have run out of oil. Global warming should, today, have turned New York into the Venice of the West with streets awash and gondolas for transport. And according to Neil Ferguson, seer and prophet, we should all be coughing and sneezing by now.

    It’s enough to scare the beJesus out of anybody. And it’s on T.V. all day long.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Lol, sure, we're all bored, and we want some drama. I like a good horror movie every now and then my self.

    But this feels less like adventure loving, derring-do kind of fear seeking, and more like danger-avoidant, risk-averse, mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
  73. @Anatoly Karlin
    Yes, this. When we talk of "segregating the elderly", we are talking - if it works - of trying to redistribute the "center of gravity" of infections towards younger ages. The end result in terms of deaths will be in the range of perhaps a halving, not orders of magnitude.

    …Because you cannot hermetically separate them (the old and sick)

    We cannot do anything 100%. That argument reminds me of a man who points to the biggest rock because he doesn’t plan to lift it. It is a way to avoid responsibility. To keep the old and sick segregated until it is safer is common sense – you can offer them remote places with staff that agrees to be separated, avoid family contact, use extreme protection measures when they see a doctor, etc…

    None of the choices we are facing are ideal. Focusing on isolating those who are mostly at risk with corona is rational. You can give them a choice, isolate or take a chance.

    The risk for the under 60 is low. It’s not pleasant and there could be long-term consequences – but there are long-term consequences for smoking, eating refined sugar, drinking in excess, or stress at work. People still do it – they even freely do it to each other. We have not forbidden any of it.

    What I meant by ‘West was ready‘ is the dysfunctional state most Western societies have been for a few years. There was a sense before corona that it wasn’t working – pyramid economics, bad situation for the young, inability to form families, huge debts, gender idiocy, open borders to anyone from the Third World and resulting broken labor markets, etc… That made reaction to corona more extreme than in normal times. There is a desire to use it to change things, some of it among the young who see no point in restarting status quo ante. For younger people this is the long-awaited ‘boomer plague‘, so why not keep it going. China, Russia have their own problems, but they don’t map cleanly into the situation in the West. Without that context, corona would not be used as a catalyst for what currently appears as a rather dramatic economic collapse.

  74. ”Some people like to be frightened. Roller coasters, bungee jumping, …”

    True, but psychiatrists say that “anticipatory anxiety” is a different mental state; the feared outcome is not immediately in front of one. There is a literature on this. Psychiatrists say said that the human brain is “an anticipation machine.” This mental state is at work now, and yet, we hardly see proper articles about it. Rather, epidemiologists and pulmonologists opine about psychology and psychiatry.

  75. @HallParvey

    the extreme panic definitely says something about our – now global – civilization
     
    Some people like to be frightened. Roller coasters, bungee jumping, mountain climbing and for the less active, horror movies, are all made to salve the need to be frightened. It's fun.

    Remember that as of 20 years ago, we should have run out of oil. Global warming should, today, have turned New York into the Venice of the West with streets awash and gondolas for transport. And according to Neil Ferguson, seer and prophet, we should all be coughing and sneezing by now.

    It's enough to scare the beJesus out of anybody. And it's on T.V. all day long.

    Lol, sure, we’re all bored, and we want some drama. I like a good horror movie every now and then my self.

    But this feels less like adventure loving, derring-do kind of fear seeking, and more like danger-avoidant, risk-averse, mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
     
    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to "pay economic sacrifice" of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn't have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year's GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year's GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

  76. @Dmitry

    “Young liberals” (in the Russian internet)
     
    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities - have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.

    Whether in TV Rain, Echo of Moscow, meduza - or with Navalny, Sobchak, Varlamov. There was such a clear consensus in liberal media space and celebrities.


    All this can be seen in the comments section on any opposition website
     
    That is not specific to opposite websites. After a few weeks of lockdown, all websites were flooded with such comments. In the local newspapers, top rated comments are discussing those claims, and a proportion are about 5g, Bill Gates, etc.

    And in Russia 24's YouTube, even I was reading comments about Jewish vaccines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1YHzACq9c0.


    Reading this, I involuntarily begin to sympathize with the Stalinists and Nazis who believe that all “young liberals” should be shot
     
    In the USSR, the epidemic would have been contained in earliest stages with a quarantine and people who break quarantine can go to a work camp.

    So it would be great to agree with the Stalinists. The sad thing is old guys who usually support Stalin, are same type saying now "it's just a flu".

    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities – have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.

    Almost all media organs and celebrities in Russia regardless of their political views supported (at least in words) more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March. So this is not an indicator at all.

    If we consider not the celebriti, but the ordinary public, then the “young liberals” are the worst part of the population of Russia, systematically working to disrupt anti-epidemic measures

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Isn’t that nice of them? They are voluntarily getting rid of themselves. Russia has a chance of greatly reducing the amount of shit in the country. I wish our libtards did that and committed suicide in this elaborate way. Would have been good riddance.
  77. Observation 1: SARS-CoC-2 affects the elderly much more than it does younger people.

    Observation 2: CoV-OC43 affects the elderly very much:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095096/

    These findings underscore the virulence of human CoV-OC43 in elderly populations and confirm that cross-reactivity to antibody against nucleocapsid proteins from these viruses must be considered when interpreting serological tests for SARS-CoV.

    Perhaps we are making too much of this pandemic.

    It does not look like it is anything like the 1918 Flu!

  78. @Dieter Kief
    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.

    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.

    I agree, of course, and this failure merits a public inquiry. Hospitals only began shutting out visitors in early March, for instance, which seems to me at least a month too late.

    • Replies: @utu
    85% of the 4,000 dead (so far) in Sweden would be alive if they did not live in Sweden. There are 2,000 Fins in Finland who are alive because they were lucky to be Fins. There are 2,000 Danes, 2,000 Norwegians,..12,000 Poles, 16,000 Spaniards,... who are alive because they were not living in Sweden.
    , @Dieter Kief
    Johan Giesecke made one more remark in this context: That there had been warnings regarding the elderly, but that they had been neglected - may be the nurses and caretakers in our homes for the elderly don't speak Swedish well enough, he added.
  79. @Swedish Family

    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.
     
    I agree, of course, and this failure merits a public inquiry. Hospitals only began shutting out visitors in early March, for instance, which seems to me at least a month too late.

    85% of the 4,000 dead (so far) in Sweden would be alive if they did not live in Sweden. There are 2,000 Fins in Finland who are alive because they were lucky to be Fins. There are 2,000 Danes, 2,000 Norwegians,..12,000 Poles, 16,000 Spaniards,… who are alive because they were not living in Sweden.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden.

    Also note that since the vast majority of the dead are people who only have a few months left to live anyway and this epidemic has been happening for a month now so you're not correct to say that the people would be alive today. The more correct statement would be that hundreds of terminally ill Swedes who died of corona in April would now be dead or dying of something else.

    Also in the same manner, there are hundreds of Finns who just died of old age who might have died a month or two earlier out of corona virus if Finland hadn't destroyed its society to SAVE LIVES.
  80. @utu
    85% of the 4,000 dead (so far) in Sweden would be alive if they did not live in Sweden. There are 2,000 Fins in Finland who are alive because they were lucky to be Fins. There are 2,000 Danes, 2,000 Norwegians,..12,000 Poles, 16,000 Spaniards,... who are alive because they were not living in Sweden.

    Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden.

    Also note that since the vast majority of the dead are people who only have a few months left to live anyway and this epidemic has been happening for a month now so you’re not correct to say that the people would be alive today. The more correct statement would be that hundreds of terminally ill Swedes who died of corona in April would now be dead or dying of something else.

    Also in the same manner, there are hundreds of Finns who just died of old age who might have died a month or two earlier out of corona virus if Finland hadn’t destroyed its society to SAVE LIVES.

    • Replies: @utu
    "Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden." - Is it good or bad? "[They] have a few months left to live anyway.... So why do you care? Or should I be more concerned about Fins than Swedes for some reason? Perhaps they did not wash their hands as often as Swedes or were in more advanced stage of liver cirrhosis?
  81. @dfordoom

    In Britain lock down has been very much a Conservative policy,
     
    The Conservative Party in Britain seems to be a bizarre mixture of economic neo-liberalism, authoritarianism and staggering incompetence. Which perhaps explains why they went for the Let 'Er Rip approach then changed course (much too late) to particularly draconian lockdowns. Had they gone for lockdowns much sooner they might be over the worst of it by now. That's what happens when you have a clown like Boris Johnson as prime minister.

    In Australia the right-wing (and economically neo-liberal) Morrison government has supported lockdowns but mostly administered with some common sense. In New South Wales (where I am) the right-wing government has been pro-lockdown, but again combined with common sense (small stores have remained open). In Victoria the loony left government has been pro-lockdown but with not quite so much common sense.

    And in New Zealand the loony left government has acted decisively and effectively and has probably handled the situation better than any it's been handled in any other country.

    So in Australasia left and right seem to be irrelevant as far as the corona situation is concerned. Both sides of politics have responded sanely. The issue has been treated as a public health crisis rather than a political issue.

    Treating the issue as a public health crisis makes it political.

  82. @Swedish Family

    Johan Giesecke, the Swedish elder statesman of public health and virology, said that the elderly had not been taken care of as it would have been appropriate and that he thinks that this was the one big CO-19-mistake being made in Sweden.
     
    I agree, of course, and this failure merits a public inquiry. Hospitals only began shutting out visitors in early March, for instance, which seems to me at least a month too late.

    Johan Giesecke made one more remark in this context: That there had been warnings regarding the elderly, but that they had been neglected – may be the nurses and caretakers in our homes for the elderly don’t speak Swedish well enough, he added.

  83. Johan Giesecke – another disgusting Swede.

  84. utu says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden.

    Also note that since the vast majority of the dead are people who only have a few months left to live anyway and this epidemic has been happening for a month now so you're not correct to say that the people would be alive today. The more correct statement would be that hundreds of terminally ill Swedes who died of corona in April would now be dead or dying of something else.

    Also in the same manner, there are hundreds of Finns who just died of old age who might have died a month or two earlier out of corona virus if Finland hadn't destroyed its society to SAVE LIVES.

    “Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden.” – Is it good or bad? “[They] have a few months left to live anyway…. So why do you care? Or should I be more concerned about Fins than Swedes for some reason? Perhaps they did not wash their hands as often as Swedes or were in more advanced stage of liver cirrhosis?

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Sigh. You're just an insane moral zealot whose thinking is 100 % "care", "feelings" good people bad people evil policies good policies. You are so emotional about this virus that you cannot process simple information without inserting your feelings into everything.

    Everyone interested in the comparison of Sweden and neighbors should take into account the simple fact that the age structures are not the same in our countries because of the big migrant waves from Finland to Sweden in the decades following World War II when Sweden had a great economy and Finland was relatively poor. Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly, Sweden has more because Finns of the exact generation range that's vulnerable to the virus moved in masses to Sweden and a lot stayed there.

    The reason ethnic Finns have a disproportionate rate of dying in Sweden is because a much higher proportion of ethnic Finns in Sweden are in the vulnerable age. Finnish mass migration to Sweden mostly ended in the 1970s so Finnish migrants in Sweden are mostly in the 50-80 age range.

    Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.
  85. @utu
    "Ethnic Finns are massively overrepresented in deaths in Sweden because a lot of Finnish pensioners live in Sweden." - Is it good or bad? "[They] have a few months left to live anyway.... So why do you care? Or should I be more concerned about Fins than Swedes for some reason? Perhaps they did not wash their hands as often as Swedes or were in more advanced stage of liver cirrhosis?

    Sigh. You’re just an insane moral zealot whose thinking is 100 % “care”, “feelings” good people bad people evil policies good policies. You are so emotional about this virus that you cannot process simple information without inserting your feelings into everything.

    Everyone interested in the comparison of Sweden and neighbors should take into account the simple fact that the age structures are not the same in our countries because of the big migrant waves from Finland to Sweden in the decades following World War II when Sweden had a great economy and Finland was relatively poor. Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly, Sweden has more because Finns of the exact generation range that’s vulnerable to the virus moved in masses to Sweden and a lot stayed there.

    The reason ethnic Finns have a disproportionate rate of dying in Sweden is because a much higher proportion of ethnic Finns in Sweden are in the vulnerable age. Finnish mass migration to Sweden mostly ended in the 1970s so Finnish migrants in Sweden are mostly in the 50-80 age range.

    Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.

    • Replies: @utu
    "Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly..."

    "Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same." -

    Your mind for the sake of argument confabulated reality that Sweden has older population than Finland. And now you are absolutely sure of it. Have you heard of Korsakoff syndrome? It's frequent in Finland. Now, look at the graphs and try to return to reality where normal people live which is not mediated via the Korsakoff syndrome confabulations.

    https://i.ibb.co/kDjyd6N/age-finland.png
    https://i.ibb.co/q0TLtqK/age-sweden.png

    The fraction over age 65 is larger in Finland (21.2%) than Sweden (19.9%).
    Median age is higher in Finland (M40.9/44.3) for both men and women than in Sweden (M40.2/F44/2).

    Finland has 0.2% deficit comparing to Sweden in 75-79 age bracket for males. But Finland has 0.7% surplus in 65-74 man bracket for males. IFR for two brackets are significantly different. By looking at the age depended IFR here:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/why-sweden-succeeded-while-others-failed/#comment-3874006

    you will be able to figure out that Finland would have higher mortality per capita if it had the same as Sweden infection rate.

    You confabulate facts in order to argue from conclusions not from and independent premises. The idea that Finland is younger than Sweden becomes so pressing and so real that you believe it. People who have no control of their rational faculty who are ruled by unconscious emotions insert their feelings into everything - as you have correctly projected - tend to make cardinal mistakes like you and obviously the Korsakoff syndrome makes it worse.
  86. @melanf

    Almost all liberal media organs and celebrities – have been arguing for a more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March.
     
    Almost all media organs and celebrities in Russia regardless of their political views supported (at least in words) more strong anti-epidemic measures from late March. So this is not an indicator at all.

    If we consider not the celebriti, but the ordinary public, then the "young liberals" are the worst part of the population of Russia, systematically working to disrupt anti-epidemic measures

    Isn’t that nice of them? They are voluntarily getting rid of themselves. Russia has a chance of greatly reducing the amount of shit in the country. I wish our libtards did that and committed suicide in this elaborate way. Would have been good riddance.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    They are voluntarily getting rid of themselves.
     
    I'm not sure which people exactly Melanf is angry about (fashionable liberal media I read everyday has been panicking about coronavirus much more than the official media), but he is angry about young rebels.

    A "collective action problem" if they are young people which behave badly- they will not pay for their irresponsibility during an epidemic that mainly kills old people.

    It's like an economics problem of externalities, where the factory which pollutes a river, will attain both a profit and not pay a cost, while the fish won't get a profit and pay all costs.

    Benefits of freedom for these young people during this epidemic, are attained for them. But the costs are paid by others.

    Obviously, people should have more moral sense in both examples, but this is the real world. Still what I can hear from everyone in Russia, is that most people are behaving well, including young people. It's not like this in some countries.

  87. @AnonFromTN
    Isn’t that nice of them? They are voluntarily getting rid of themselves. Russia has a chance of greatly reducing the amount of shit in the country. I wish our libtards did that and committed suicide in this elaborate way. Would have been good riddance.

    They are voluntarily getting rid of themselves.

    I’m not sure which people exactly Melanf is angry about (fashionable liberal media I read everyday has been panicking about coronavirus much more than the official media), but he is angry about young rebels.

    A “collective action problem” if they are young people which behave badly- they will not pay for their irresponsibility during an epidemic that mainly kills old people.

    It’s like an economics problem of externalities, where the factory which pollutes a river, will attain both a profit and not pay a cost, while the fish won’t get a profit and pay all costs.

    Benefits of freedom for these young people during this epidemic, are attained for them. But the costs are paid by others.

    Obviously, people should have more moral sense in both examples, but this is the real world. Still what I can hear from everyone in Russia, is that most people are behaving well, including young people. It’s not like this in some countries.

  88. @AaronB
    Lol, sure, we're all bored, and we want some drama. I like a good horror movie every now and then my self.

    But this feels less like adventure loving, derring-do kind of fear seeking, and more like danger-avoidant, risk-averse, mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.

    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to “pay economic sacrifice” of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn’t have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year’s GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I do not think one should be primarily dominated by fear. Death is not a big deal and one should accept it.

    One's dominant attitude to life should be romantic free spirited adventure that verges on the reckless.

    One should take limited precautions and have an insouciant attitude towards the whole of life.

    One should be above the world.

    Alas, the spirit of modern times is against thus - it is about scientific control.

    I cannot admire that. It seems an inherently fear based attitude.
    , @dfordoom

    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?
     
    It's not pathetic at all. It's normal. In the pre-internet days anyone who argued that it was a good thing to let the old and the sick just die would have found himself shunned by decent society. But now people with such appalling beliefs can find other crazies online who share those beliefs. So they start believing that their extremist views are socially acceptable. If they find a place like UR they'll find lots of crazies who think the same way.

    What they don't realise is that the handful of crazies they find online are the only people in society who share their beliefs. Normal people just don't think that way.

    The internet is not the real world. And the political internet is definitely not the real world. But it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that it is. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that a place like UR represents a sampling of the real world. It doesn't. It's a hang-out for misfits and nutters and for people consumed by irrational fears and hatreds. It's a magnet for people with marginal political and social views.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.
     
    I agree entirely.
    , @AaronB

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.
     
    I think they did a decent job overall.

    You do not want a country that is too efficient or competent - you want it to be a little messy and chaotic.

    What you had in China was an astonishingly incompetent early failure to contain the virus, where all the typical Chinese dysfunctions played a role, followed by an extremely brutal crackdown - the effectiveness of which it is impossible to ascertain, as Chinese numbers are notoriously unreliable and implausible on the face of it.

    I am extremely pleased that those horrific YouTube videos of Chinese police dragging people away in the most brutal fashion based on a mere temperature check did not happen in America. I would not want to live in a country where it could happen.

    Living a bit longer is not everything my friend - get a hold of your self!

    We should take reasonable and limited precautions to prevent death but we should not fear it. You want to be a little bit reckless and "uncontrolled".

    , @utu

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.
     
    Absolutely. So I began to suspect that the stupidity was purposefully amplified.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/which-one-is-austria-and-which-one-is-australia/#comment-3913963

    Why we were not allowed to consider the option of the virus eradication? Is it because it would be a threat to globalism, it would foster resurgence of nationalistic right, it would bring national unity and solidarity, it would reestablish borders and national sovereignty? Or is it because a high impact of the epidemic was needed to turn the world and world public opinion against China, to turn China into the pariah nation according to the grand geopolitical scheme concocted by the cabal that Steve Bannon was and is occasionally channeling?
     

    I think that the pivot against China was the chief reason. We are where we are where TPTB wanted us to be. The reason smaller countries like NZ could pursue the elimination policy is because they are small and peripheral or perhaps they lost the memo.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/which-one-is-austria-and-which-one-is-australia/#comment-3917262
    ...it does not take much to introduce just a little bit of malice to make already incompetent system even more incompetent. All it took was to not put on the table the elimination option and instead throwing at everybody the unmitigated option with limited alternative of curve flattening option. We all, including politicians, who as you said do not know better, ended up being locked into this limited alternative in which we remain in the futile discourse fending off libertarian nonsense that lockdowns are bad or that real men do not wear masks.
     
    "... pivot against China was the chief reason..." - Think of that when you read AaronB comments and him extolling chaos and inefficiency.
  89. utu says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    Sigh. You're just an insane moral zealot whose thinking is 100 % "care", "feelings" good people bad people evil policies good policies. You are so emotional about this virus that you cannot process simple information without inserting your feelings into everything.

    Everyone interested in the comparison of Sweden and neighbors should take into account the simple fact that the age structures are not the same in our countries because of the big migrant waves from Finland to Sweden in the decades following World War II when Sweden had a great economy and Finland was relatively poor. Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly, Sweden has more because Finns of the exact generation range that's vulnerable to the virus moved in masses to Sweden and a lot stayed there.

    The reason ethnic Finns have a disproportionate rate of dying in Sweden is because a much higher proportion of ethnic Finns in Sweden are in the vulnerable age. Finnish mass migration to Sweden mostly ended in the 1970s so Finnish migrants in Sweden are mostly in the 50-80 age range.

    Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.

    “Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly…”

    “Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.”

    Your mind for the sake of argument confabulated reality that Sweden has older population than Finland. And now you are absolutely sure of it. Have you heard of Korsakoff syndrome? It’s frequent in Finland. Now, look at the graphs and try to return to reality where normal people live which is not mediated via the Korsakoff syndrome confabulations.

    The fraction over age 65 is larger in Finland (21.2%) than Sweden (19.9%).
    Median age is higher in Finland (M40.9/44.3) for both men and women than in Sweden (M40.2/F44/2).

    Finland has 0.2% deficit comparing to Sweden in 75-79 age bracket for males. But Finland has 0.7% surplus in 65-74 man bracket for males. IFR for two brackets are significantly different. By looking at the age depended IFR here:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/why-sweden-succeeded-while-others-failed/#comment-3874006

    you will be able to figure out that Finland would have higher mortality per capita if it had the same as Sweden infection rate.

    You confabulate facts in order to argue from conclusions not from and independent premises. The idea that Finland is younger than Sweden becomes so pressing and so real that you believe it. People who have no control of their rational faculty who are ruled by unconscious emotions insert their feelings into everything – as you have correctly projected – tend to make cardinal mistakes like you and obviously the Korsakoff syndrome makes it worse.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    You don't get the point. Finland and Sweden (+ rest of Scandinavia) have had a passport union since the 1950s. Most Finns who moved to Sweden never bothered getting Swedish citizenship so there are about 100000 people, mostly aged 50-80, who are registered as Finnish citizens but who have actually lived in Sweden for a half century. This is currently not being properly sorted out in most reports of corona death numbers because foreigners have no idea of our little Nordic union project.

    Another thing to note is that by looking at the young end of the population graph you see that Sweden has much bigger young age brackets. This is because of current migration. So indeed Sweden compared to Finland has extra people in the oldest brackets (as I claimed) but they also have extra people in the youngest brackets so the percentage of the oldest from the total balances out.

    I do not believe at all that there would have been a comparable death rate in Finland if we had not locked down at all for the simple reason that nursing homes in Sweden are run very differently, for starters ours haven't (yet) been used as a jobs program for unassimilated Africans and Arabs. Finland did get a lot of Eastern Europeans for those jobs but those are more competent migrants.
  90. @utu
    "Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly..."

    "Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same." -

    Your mind for the sake of argument confabulated reality that Sweden has older population than Finland. And now you are absolutely sure of it. Have you heard of Korsakoff syndrome? It's frequent in Finland. Now, look at the graphs and try to return to reality where normal people live which is not mediated via the Korsakoff syndrome confabulations.

    https://i.ibb.co/kDjyd6N/age-finland.png
    https://i.ibb.co/q0TLtqK/age-sweden.png

    The fraction over age 65 is larger in Finland (21.2%) than Sweden (19.9%).
    Median age is higher in Finland (M40.9/44.3) for both men and women than in Sweden (M40.2/F44/2).

    Finland has 0.2% deficit comparing to Sweden in 75-79 age bracket for males. But Finland has 0.7% surplus in 65-74 man bracket for males. IFR for two brackets are significantly different. By looking at the age depended IFR here:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/why-sweden-succeeded-while-others-failed/#comment-3874006

    you will be able to figure out that Finland would have higher mortality per capita if it had the same as Sweden infection rate.

    You confabulate facts in order to argue from conclusions not from and independent premises. The idea that Finland is younger than Sweden becomes so pressing and so real that you believe it. People who have no control of their rational faculty who are ruled by unconscious emotions insert their feelings into everything - as you have correctly projected - tend to make cardinal mistakes like you and obviously the Korsakoff syndrome makes it worse.

    You don’t get the point. Finland and Sweden (+ rest of Scandinavia) have had a passport union since the 1950s. Most Finns who moved to Sweden never bothered getting Swedish citizenship so there are about 100000 people, mostly aged 50-80, who are registered as Finnish citizens but who have actually lived in Sweden for a half century. This is currently not being properly sorted out in most reports of corona death numbers because foreigners have no idea of our little Nordic union project.

    Another thing to note is that by looking at the young end of the population graph you see that Sweden has much bigger young age brackets. This is because of current migration. So indeed Sweden compared to Finland has extra people in the oldest brackets (as I claimed) but they also have extra people in the youngest brackets so the percentage of the oldest from the total balances out.

    I do not believe at all that there would have been a comparable death rate in Finland if we had not locked down at all for the simple reason that nursing homes in Sweden are run very differently, for starters ours haven’t (yet) been used as a jobs program for unassimilated Africans and Arabs. Finland did get a lot of Eastern Europeans for those jobs but those are more competent migrants.

    • Replies: @utu
    You were wrong. It was proven to you. You fail to admit it by obfuscating. Your cognitive defects extend to moral faculty as well. You are not debate worthy.
  91. @Dmitry

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
     
    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to "pay economic sacrifice" of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn't have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year's GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year's GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    I do not think one should be primarily dominated by fear. Death is not a big deal and one should accept it.

    One’s dominant attitude to life should be romantic free spirited adventure that verges on the reckless.

    One should take limited precautions and have an insouciant attitude towards the whole of life.

    One should be above the world.

    Alas, the spirit of modern times is against thus – it is about scientific control.

    I cannot admire that. It seems an inherently fear based attitude.

  92. @Dmitry

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
     
    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to "pay economic sacrifice" of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn't have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year's GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year's GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    It’s not pathetic at all. It’s normal. In the pre-internet days anyone who argued that it was a good thing to let the old and the sick just die would have found himself shunned by decent society. But now people with such appalling beliefs can find other crazies online who share those beliefs. So they start believing that their extremist views are socially acceptable. If they find a place like UR they’ll find lots of crazies who think the same way.

    What they don’t realise is that the handful of crazies they find online are the only people in society who share their beliefs. Normal people just don’t think that way.

    The internet is not the real world. And the political internet is definitely not the real world. But it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking that it is. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking that a place like UR represents a sampling of the real world. It doesn’t. It’s a hang-out for misfits and nutters and for people consumed by irrational fears and hatreds. It’s a magnet for people with marginal political and social views.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    I agree entirely.

    • Agree: utu
  93. @Dmitry

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
     
    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to "pay economic sacrifice" of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn't have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year's GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year's GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    I think they did a decent job overall.

    You do not want a country that is too efficient or competent – you want it to be a little messy and chaotic.

    What you had in China was an astonishingly incompetent early failure to contain the virus, where all the typical Chinese dysfunctions played a role, followed by an extremely brutal crackdown – the effectiveness of which it is impossible to ascertain, as Chinese numbers are notoriously unreliable and implausible on the face of it.

    I am extremely pleased that those horrific YouTube videos of Chinese police dragging people away in the most brutal fashion based on a mere temperature check did not happen in America. I would not want to live in a country where it could happen.

    Living a bit longer is not everything my friend – get a hold of your self!

    We should take reasonable and limited precautions to prevent death but we should not fear it. You want to be a little bit reckless and “uncontrolled”.

  94. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    mortality fearing kind of fear. The pathetic kind.
     
    Why is it pathetic to want to protect lives, including disproportionately disabled, immunocompromised people, your grandparents, etc?

    That the majority public in most of our countries, are accepting to "pay economic sacrifice" of the lockdown policy, was an indication that our society at least doesn't have completely illusory preferences, and understands that saving lives is more important than convenience, or this year's GDP figures.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year's GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    On the other hand, the inability of our political leaders to control the epidemic in the early stages, has been scarily more stupid than I could have imagined, and aside from the deaths, the pain from year’s GDP figures are a real avoidable disaster caused by that stupidity.

    Absolutely. So I began to suspect that the stupidity was purposefully amplified.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/which-one-is-austria-and-which-one-is-australia/#comment-3913963

    Why we were not allowed to consider the option of the virus eradication? Is it because it would be a threat to globalism, it would foster resurgence of nationalistic right, it would bring national unity and solidarity, it would reestablish borders and national sovereignty? Or is it because a high impact of the epidemic was needed to turn the world and world public opinion against China, to turn China into the pariah nation according to the grand geopolitical scheme concocted by the cabal that Steve Bannon was and is occasionally channeling?

    I think that the pivot against China was the chief reason. We are where we are where TPTB wanted us to be. The reason smaller countries like NZ could pursue the elimination policy is because they are small and peripheral or perhaps they lost the memo.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/which-one-is-austria-and-which-one-is-australia/#comment-3917262
    …it does not take much to introduce just a little bit of malice to make already incompetent system even more incompetent. All it took was to not put on the table the elimination option and instead throwing at everybody the unmitigated option with limited alternative of curve flattening option. We all, including politicians, who as you said do not know better, ended up being locked into this limited alternative in which we remain in the futile discourse fending off libertarian nonsense that lockdowns are bad or that real men do not wear masks.

    “… pivot against China was the chief reason…” – Think of that when you read AaronB comments and him extolling chaos and inefficiency.

  95. @Jaakko Raipala
    You don't get the point. Finland and Sweden (+ rest of Scandinavia) have had a passport union since the 1950s. Most Finns who moved to Sweden never bothered getting Swedish citizenship so there are about 100000 people, mostly aged 50-80, who are registered as Finnish citizens but who have actually lived in Sweden for a half century. This is currently not being properly sorted out in most reports of corona death numbers because foreigners have no idea of our little Nordic union project.

    Another thing to note is that by looking at the young end of the population graph you see that Sweden has much bigger young age brackets. This is because of current migration. So indeed Sweden compared to Finland has extra people in the oldest brackets (as I claimed) but they also have extra people in the youngest brackets so the percentage of the oldest from the total balances out.

    I do not believe at all that there would have been a comparable death rate in Finland if we had not locked down at all for the simple reason that nursing homes in Sweden are run very differently, for starters ours haven't (yet) been used as a jobs program for unassimilated Africans and Arabs. Finland did get a lot of Eastern Europeans for those jobs but those are more competent migrants.

    You were wrong. It was proven to you. You fail to admit it by obfuscating. Your cognitive defects extend to moral faculty as well. You are not debate worthy.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    No I'm not and you didn't disprove my point at all but you're obviously completely irrational about this flu so it's pointless to continue.
  96. @utu
    You were wrong. It was proven to you. You fail to admit it by obfuscating. Your cognitive defects extend to moral faculty as well. You are not debate worthy.

    No I’m not and you didn’t disprove my point at all but you’re obviously completely irrational about this flu so it’s pointless to continue.

    • Replies: @utu
    What a weasel you are. No sign of honorable quality. Take a look at what you said:

    Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly…”

    Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.”
     
    Get data for the age pyramids for Finland and Sweden, take age dependent IFR (see comment #89 *) and calculate death rate in both countries under the assumption of the same infection rate. And you will get that Finland would end up having higher death per capita than Sweden which is the opposite of you have claimed. And you keep continue to refuse to accept by obfuscating like a child with silly ifs and buts.

    Why did you come up with the stupid and false claim in the first place. It was you ad hoc thought on your part that by claiming it you could weaken the case of Sweden having so many more death per capita than Finland. It was not only false but stupid. You are in denial, you do not want to face the fact that Finland policy saved many lives while Sweden policy sacrificed 85% of the 4,000 dead so far.

    You are wimp and coward.

    (*) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ideological-heterogeneity/#comment-3920536
  97. utu says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    No I'm not and you didn't disprove my point at all but you're obviously completely irrational about this flu so it's pointless to continue.

    What a weasel you are. No sign of honorable quality. Take a look at what you said:

    Finland has a comparative deficit in elderly…”

    Sweden would have a higher than average death rate while Finland would have a lower than average death rate even if the policies were exactly the same because the population structure is not the same.”

    Get data for the age pyramids for Finland and Sweden, take age dependent IFR (see comment #89 *) and calculate death rate in both countries under the assumption of the same infection rate. And you will get that Finland would end up having higher death per capita than Sweden which is the opposite of you have claimed. And you keep continue to refuse to accept by obfuscating like a child with silly ifs and buts.

    Why did you come up with the stupid and false claim in the first place. It was you ad hoc thought on your part that by claiming it you could weaken the case of Sweden having so many more death per capita than Finland. It was not only false but stupid. You are in denial, you do not want to face the fact that Finland policy saved many lives while Sweden policy sacrificed 85% of the 4,000 dead so far.

    You are wimp and coward.

    (*) https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ideological-heterogeneity/#comment-3920536

  98. in brazil, there’s a huge variance of death rate between states. those with less deads are the ones in the (white) south. despite being the ones with the older population. similar position is in the brazil center-west which is mostly composed of rural areas and cities without much public transportation

    north is the most affected – per capita – area and northwest as well. sao paulo and rio are in the between and have the most cases by far

    ps: in this week, though, we are barely talking about the virus despite being the leader in daily deaths. we’re mostly talking about politics. like our supreme court arresting conservatives because of “fake news”. our supreme court is more draconic than the european union, and our congress is completely dilluted into a bunch of thiefs (but the congress is people’s fault, they dont understand what legislative means)

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS