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Hagia Sophia Becomes Mosque
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At the end of the day, the battle was lost in 1453.

The best chance there was to reclaim Constantinople for Christendom was in 1917.

Admiral Kolchak was to command an amphibious assault on the Bosphorus, spearheaded by regiments named after Tsargrad and Admiral Nakhimov (amongst others).

Instead, it was Russia that was taken over by proto-SJWs, who a decade later would topple statues of Admiral Nakhimov to avoid offending visiting Turkish sailors (yes, really).

At that time, there were ~180M people in Russian Empire in 1916 (~95M Russians), as well as 10 million Greeks and Armenians in the region, vs. just ~13M Muslim Turks in Ottoman Empire. Today, the relative numbers hardly need recounting. The fantasy only exists in Alt Right memes.

So who really cares if it’s a museum or a mosque at this point. Tourists will still be able to go there and snap selfies, so it’s not as if anything will really change with this reversion to the pre-Ataturk norm.

The contrast between Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor vs. the sight of the Western world toppling the monuments of its founding fathers obviously begs to be made, though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy.

That said, I suppose if one really wants to assign it cosmic significance, one may view it as God’s righteous punishment for reserve Turkish Army officer Bart’s pretensions to inter-Orthodox primacy and support of the heretical Ukrainian schismatics.

 
• Category: Culture/Society • Tags: Orthodoxy, Turkey 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Punishment for Pope Bart, punishment for Greek Orthodox modernism. At least we still have the great and ancient Russian sobors.

    I will also allow that there is a prophecy by an Athonite monk who said that one day Russia would fight Turkey, killing one third, driving off one third and converting one third. Russia has nukes, Turkey does not. USA and China take each other out and suddenly strange things can happen.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    That's the ticket Brother, a modern day crusade directed this time from Moscow, where Turkey is nuked into Christian submission - are you for real???........

    Replies: @El Dato, @Svevlad

    , @TomDickHarry
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    If there is any mass converting, anywhere, it will be only the pagan polytheist mangods-worshippers converting to the religion of pure unbending monotheism... Islam!!

    God willing!

    Replies: @Dumbo

  3. Meanwhile the Great Mosque of Cordoba remains a Cathedral despite being mostly empty in the modern age secularized Spain (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    Muslims have often asked the Catholic Church to get the Cordoba Mezquita back and were flatly rejected every time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_campaign_at_C%C3%B3rdoba_Cathedral

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @Ano4

    And what about the rest of Spain? Belonged to muslims, so unfair that it was violently stolen by Christians.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Ano4

    There's a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil

    Replies: @Ano4, @TomDickHarry

    , @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).
     
    In reality, Erdogan is like a third-rate version of ROC officials who build new churches without working to actually get any people in them.

    It is also full of veiled symbolism that the public can only learn from its designers, like six minarets representing the six articles of the faith. Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory of the Seljuks against the Byzantine army that cemented Muslim rule in Anatolia. Its 72-meter high main dome represents what builders say are the 72 nations that lived in the city. The secondary dome has a diameter of 34 meters after the license plate number for the city. The interior of the dome is inscribed with 16 adjectives attributed to Allah, and it also symbolizes the number of states founded by Turks in history. Atop the main dome is a three-piece finial that weighs 4.5 tons, and at a height of 7.77 meters, the largest of its kind.
     
    And let us not forget the attendance of the glorious presidents of Albania, Guinea and Senegal!

    Delegations from several countries joined President Erdoğan for the opening. Among dignitaries attending the ceremony were Albanian President Ilir Meta, Guinean President Alpha Conde and Senegalese President Macky Sall. Muslim scholars and religious figures from Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Azerbaijan, Iran, Greece, Montenegro, Palestine and Qatar were also present at the opening.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/istanbul/2019/05/03/erdogan-inaugurates-turkeys-biggest-place-of-worship-grand-camlica-mosque-in-istanbul

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @songbird
    @Ano4

    The mosque at Cordoba was made from the masonry of an earlier Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings. The fight over it is just a proxy fight for immigration.

    Muslims are always looking for legitimacy in Europe, so that they can facilitate their continued invasion. It is one reason that Turkey is promoted as being a part of Europe.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Ano4

  4. “Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor”

    Very unlikely.

    Despite Erdogan’s baby boom campaign, the number of births in Turkey dropped by 3.6% to 1.248 million in 2018 versus 1.295 million in 2017. The overall fertility rate fell to 1.99 from 2.07, meaning Turkey is now reproducing below the replacement rate. Those numbers include very high fertility 20 million Kurds. Sunni Turk fertility levels are probably more like 1.6-1.7.

    Another example, is that a recent survey found that even conservative, pro-Erdoğan youths have no faith in either their own country or other Islamic countries. SODEV, a Turkish foundation, asked young people between the ages of 15 and 25 whether they would live abroad if given the chance. Almost half (47.3%) of those youths who said they supported Erdogan’s AKP said they preferred to live abroad. Half of Erdogan’s youth have no faith in Turkey’s future. SODEV also asked pro-Erdogan (pro-AKP) young people whether they would rather live in Switzerland on $5,000 per month or in Saudi Arabia on $10,000 per month. As many as 60.5% of them said they would prefer Switzerland.

    Turkey may seem vigorous but its actions are driven by an increasingly narrow Islamic elite and rural mercantile population which has increasingly relied on debt (often short term external debt) to sustain their growth.

    • Agree: AaronB, Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Agathoklis

    They are importing sunni arabs and putting them in kurdish areas in Turkey, probably with the aim of long term turkisation.

    , @jay
    @Agathoklis

    The Kurds seem to be doing very well. But I think the Leftist ideology influence will suppress that.

  5. Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.

    In contrast, the churches in Ireland went globo-homo. They were turned into homosques.

    It seems the same fate awaits Poland. Young ones are all into globo-homo, pornification, and diversity, especially Afro-worship. Do Poles even realize that these are proxies of Jewish Power?

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/poland-right-andrzej-duda-pyrrhic-victory/

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion, but the problem with the Right is their creative laziness in relying on tradition. While religion and tradition must have their place, the future can only be secured by new vision and imagination. As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement. In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    That’s what matters. There must be a place for religion, but the Right need and should not rely mainly on religion for its support.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @Priss Factor


    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion
     
    Do not crap on Ron Dreher, he is one of the few right wingers who understand that climate change is real and catastrophic.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/arctic-heatwave-global-warming/

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/global-warming-judgement-by-fire/

    He sees that global warming is as destructive for the body as homosexuality and transgenderism are for the soul, and both are advancing with accelerating speed.

    He also sees through Trump fraud, and groks that the virus is not a hoax and not just a flu, which makes him even more unpopular in the right wing sphere.
    You can understand why he is so downbeat and grumpy at most times.

    Replies: @Pericles

    , @jbwilson24
    @Priss Factor

    "Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people."

    Yes, because it was of the west. To see filthy Turks defiling former Byzantine architecture is reason enough in itself to invade, never mind religion.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Priss Factor

    Easily one of the worst comments I've ever read on this site.


    As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement.
     
    This is one of the gayest things I've ever read.

    They don't have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he'd order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.


    In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.
     
    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it's by far the best way to win restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?
     
    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    The rest of your comment is a disgusting embarrassment to your European ancestors.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Priss Factor

    , @Jake
    @Priss Factor

    You sound exactly like a Jew playing the role of Jew-blamer to keep the system as is.

    The only thing that terrifies those many bad Jews is also the only thing that terrifies the many white Gentiles who have sold their patrimony for a culturally suicidal mess of pottage: the revival of Christendom.

    It is either Christ and Christendom or Chaos.

  6. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    Punishment for Pope Bart, punishment for Greek Orthodox modernism. At least we still have the great and ancient Russian sobors.

    I will also allow that there is a prophecy by an Athonite monk who said that one day Russia would fight Turkey, killing one third, driving off one third and converting one third. Russia has nukes, Turkey does not. USA and China take each other out and suddenly strange things can happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @TomDickHarry

    That’s the ticket Brother, a modern day crusade directed this time from Moscow, where Turkey is nuked into Christian submission – are you for real???……..

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Mr. Hack

    The future is yet to be written.

    Shai-Hulud will rise at unexpected moments etc.

    , @Svevlad
    @Mr. Hack

    If there's anyone with a 100% accuracy of prediction, it's the athonites.

    Some of them, the really high level ones who live like hermits in the crags, nobody sees them for years at a time, they know your name, age, what do you do etc and they just saw you for the first time in their life. Weird shit

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  7. The best chance there was to reclaim Constantinople for Christendom was in 1917.

    As alternate history, it is nah.
    All alternate historians worth their salt know that way to liberation of Constantinople starts with early death of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and presidency of Henry Agard Wallace.

    What happens when FDR kicks the bucket few years early?
    For All Time ensues.
    One of the most famous, most creative, most detailed, most cinemactic, most cannibalistic, most nuclear happy alternate world timelines ever. Makes you really appreciate the world we live in!

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/ForAllTime

    Full threadmarked timeline here.

    https://hestories.info/its-a-good-speech-just-a-little-too-long.html

  8. Nakhimov’s victory at Sinop led directly to Crimean War and Russia’s humiliation. Had Kolchak succeded in 1917, the history would’ve repeated itself.

    England and France could not allow Russia to control the keys to the Mediterranean and Middle East. Germany would’ve gone along with them in hopes of getting revenge and recovering the WWI losses. Hence, Crimean War 2.0 would be all but inevitable. It would be like WWII, except in this reality Russia would have had even more enemies and no allies. It’s not hard to imagine how this war would’ve ended.

    • Replies: @mal
    @inertial

    Russian Civil War was far more devastating for Russia than World War 1. English, French, and Germans were bled out. They attempted intervention but it didn't amount to much.

    If the choices are:

    1. More or less competent unity government, no communist propaganda lies ('bread and peace') to brainwash ordinary people, and a war with Britain, France, and Germany.

    2. Civil War and how every unfolded historically.

    Option 1 is best for Russia hands down. If storming Constantinople united the people of the country, even destroying American armies would have been worth it, and less costly.

    , @Jon Halpenny
    @inertial

    England and France already promised Constantinople to Russia in the 1915 Constantinople Agreement.

  9. @Agathoklis
    "Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor"

    Very unlikely.

    Despite Erdogan's baby boom campaign, the number of births in Turkey dropped by 3.6% to 1.248 million in 2018 versus 1.295 million in 2017. The overall fertility rate fell to 1.99 from 2.07, meaning Turkey is now reproducing below the replacement rate. Those numbers include very high fertility 20 million Kurds. Sunni Turk fertility levels are probably more like 1.6-1.7.

    Another example, is that a recent survey found that even conservative, pro-Erdoğan youths have no faith in either their own country or other Islamic countries. SODEV, a Turkish foundation, asked young people between the ages of 15 and 25 whether they would live abroad if given the chance. Almost half (47.3%) of those youths who said they supported Erdogan's AKP said they preferred to live abroad. Half of Erdogan's youth have no faith in Turkey’s future. SODEV also asked pro-Erdogan (pro-AKP) young people whether they would rather live in Switzerland on $5,000 per month or in Saudi Arabia on $10,000 per month. As many as 60.5% of them said they would prefer Switzerland.

    Turkey may seem vigorous but its actions are driven by an increasingly narrow Islamic elite and rural mercantile population which has increasingly relied on debt (often short term external debt) to sustain their growth.

    Replies: @Passer by, @jay

    They are importing sunni arabs and putting them in kurdish areas in Turkey, probably with the aim of long term turkisation.

  10. @Priss Factor
    Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.

    In contrast, the churches in Ireland went globo-homo. They were turned into homosques.

    It seems the same fate awaits Poland. Young ones are all into globo-homo, pornification, and diversity, especially Afro-worship. Do Poles even realize that these are proxies of Jewish Power?

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/poland-right-andrzej-duda-pyrrhic-victory/

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion, but the problem with the Right is their creative laziness in relying on tradition. While religion and tradition must have their place, the future can only be secured by new vision and imagination. As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement. In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    That's what matters. There must be a place for religion, but the Right need and should not rely mainly on religion for its support.

    Replies: @another anon, @jbwilson24, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Jake

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion

    Do not crap on Ron Dreher, he is one of the few right wingers who understand that climate change is real and catastrophic.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/arctic-heatwave-global-warming/

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/global-warming-judgement-by-fire/

    He sees that global warming is as destructive for the body as homosexuality and transgenderism are for the soul, and both are advancing with accelerating speed.

    He also sees through Trump fraud, and groks that the virus is not a hoax and not just a flu, which makes him even more unpopular in the right wing sphere.
    You can understand why he is so downbeat and grumpy at most times.

    • LOL: 3g4me
    • Replies: @Pericles
    @another anon

    Please, no sudden movements or raised voices, everyone, but this is a great moment in birdwatching. Right above we can see the long considered extinct David French voter.

    Replies: @Excal

  11. My theory is that the Islamic world is in its WW1/WW2 phase – tearing itself apart internally.

    Superficially vigorous, like Europe in that time, it’s the last explosion of fireworks before it subsides into senescence. I’m shocked at the low birth rates of Sunni Muslim Turks!

    So you may yet have your chance, Anatoly. You may yet.

  12. Apparently Erdogan is determined to create a conflict with Putin. One of Putin’s key constituencies, Orthodox Christians, are openly pushing him towards a strong response. (1)

    Ivan Savvidis, a Russian-Georgian billionaire of Pontic Greek origins, who is also a former member of the Russian Parliament, has appealed to Russian President Vladimir Putin to take a strong position in defending Orthodox Christians against Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia from a museum to a mosque.

    Erdogan’s egregious provocations lack anything resembling strategy. He is picking fights with everyone simultaneously:

    — U.S. (F-35 / S400)
    — Europe (Med resource claims)
    — Europe again, U.S. again, Egypt (Libya)
    — Russia (Syria invasion)
    — Russia again plus Greece (Theft of Orthodox holy sites)

    The underutilized Blue Mosque (a.k.a. Sultan Ahmet) is ~250 yards away. (2) There is no credible claim for space. The only explanation is Erdogan’s personal hate & contempt towards all Infidels, in this case specifically Orthodox Christians.

    It is no longer a question about “if” there will be consequences to Turkey for Erdogan’s hideous behaviour. The questions are about “when” and “how severe”.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/07/11/savvidis-to-putin-russia-needs-to-once-again-defend-orthodoxy-and-pay-attention-to-hagia-sophia/

    (2) Photo of Blue Mosque (right) adjacent to Hagia Sophia.
    ..
    https://www.rferl.org/a/inside-hagia-sophia-the-ancient-religious-building-receonverted-into-mosque/30724028.html

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @TomDickHarry
    @A123

    What, a post with almost nil rabidly Islamophobic venom?! Where is all the shrill pathetic bleating about, IslamoSoros, IslamoFacist, IslamoEvil..., your signature lines?

    You are getting soft, you pagan zio-chrizzie faeces-for-brains.

    PEACE ;)

  13. mal says:
    @inertial
    Nakhimov's victory at Sinop led directly to Crimean War and Russia's humiliation. Had Kolchak succeded in 1917, the history would've repeated itself.

    England and France could not allow Russia to control the keys to the Mediterranean and Middle East. Germany would've gone along with them in hopes of getting revenge and recovering the WWI losses. Hence, Crimean War 2.0 would be all but inevitable. It would be like WWII, except in this reality Russia would have had even more enemies and no allies. It's not hard to imagine how this war would've ended.

    Replies: @mal, @Jon Halpenny

    Russian Civil War was far more devastating for Russia than World War 1. English, French, and Germans were bled out. They attempted intervention but it didn’t amount to much.

    If the choices are:

    1. More or less competent unity government, no communist propaganda lies (‘bread and peace’) to brainwash ordinary people, and a war with Britain, France, and Germany.

    2. Civil War and how every unfolded historically.

    Option 1 is best for Russia hands down. If storming Constantinople united the people of the country, even destroying American armies would have been worth it, and less costly.

  14. The Blue Mosque smells so strongly of feet that it makes you gag. I really hope Hagia Sophia doesn’t go the same way.

    • LOL: Escher
    • Replies: @TomDickHarry
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Where you are headed, you will be puking out your insides... pagan godless scum.

    , @Escher
    @Not Only Wrathful

    It’ll become “Gagia Sophia”.

  15. Good. To hell with Christians.
    The sooner people drop that pathetic religion and realize that it is conductive to failure(s), the better.

    • Replies: @another anon
    @JohnPlywood


    Good. To hell with Christians.
    The sooner people drop that pathetic religion and realize that it is conductive to failure(s), the better.
     
    Welcome, time traveler from the ougties!

    https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/311/989/7af.jpg

    I have some news for you - the Great Internet Christian-Atheist Wars are over.
    Good news for you: the christians lost, the atheists won. Christianity is dead.
    Band news for you: there is no peace.
    Just like after WW2 the victors split into communists and capitalists and continued to fight among themselves, after the end of GICAW the winners split into SJW and alt-right factions and the struggle continues.
    This is grim dark future of the internet where is only war.
    Why? Because we want it this way.

  16. I’m becoming Catholic. The Greek Orthodox can get stuffed and burned out by their buddies at BLM.
    Greeks are little sissy whiners.
    Just try to find one Greek movie that isn’t gayer than a tranny who just got chopped.

  17. @Ano4
    Meanwhile the Great Mosque of Cordoba remains a Cathedral despite being mostly empty in the modern age secularized Spain (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    Muslims have often asked the Catholic Church to get the Cordoba Mezquita back and were flatly rejected every time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_campaign_at_C%C3%B3rdoba_Cathedral

    Replies: @Pericles, @Kent Nationalist, @Hyperborean, @songbird

    And what about the rest of Spain? Belonged to muslims, so unfair that it was violently stolen by Christians.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Pericles

    Everyone steals something from someone else in this world of ours, except for those who use photosynthesis to grow. I don't think that Muslims belong to this photosynthetic category.

    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective Christianity and Islam are quite similar in their tendency to force themselves down the throats of the people that fall under their control. This is what Abrahamic religions do.

    Replies: @AP

  18. If you’re feeling exhausted by the vigorous Turks and perhaps the emotional labor required to deal with them, no need to wave the white flag. Just let someone more energetic take over, for a while or permanently. In this case, I hear even the EU condemned their latest antics.

  19. @another anon
    @Priss Factor


    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion
     
    Do not crap on Ron Dreher, he is one of the few right wingers who understand that climate change is real and catastrophic.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/arctic-heatwave-global-warming/

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/global-warming-judgement-by-fire/

    He sees that global warming is as destructive for the body as homosexuality and transgenderism are for the soul, and both are advancing with accelerating speed.

    He also sees through Trump fraud, and groks that the virus is not a hoax and not just a flu, which makes him even more unpopular in the right wing sphere.
    You can understand why he is so downbeat and grumpy at most times.

    Replies: @Pericles

    Please, no sudden movements or raised voices, everyone, but this is a great moment in birdwatching. Right above we can see the long considered extinct David French voter.

    • Replies: @Excal
    @Pericles


    Right above we can see the long considered extinct David French voter.
     
    Nice one. :D :D :D

    Mr. Dreher is a nice man (seriously), and a very good writer, but he's also gullible. The things he gets excited about are an interesting sort of barometer of something -- not sure what, but something.

    These days he's almost a kind of Walter Sobchak of the Orthodox Church, but I predict he'll go back to Catholicism before it's all over. You (maybe) read it here first.
  20. @JohnPlywood
    Good. To hell with Christians.
    The sooner people drop that pathetic religion and realize that it is conductive to failure(s), the better.

    Replies: @another anon

    Good. To hell with Christians.
    The sooner people drop that pathetic religion and realize that it is conductive to failure(s), the better.

    Welcome, time traveler from the ougties!

    I have some news for you – the Great Internet Christian-Atheist Wars are over.
    Good news for you: the christians lost, the atheists won. Christianity is dead.
    Band news for you: there is no peace.
    Just like after WW2 the victors split into communists and capitalists and continued to fight among themselves, after the end of GICAW the winners split into SJW and alt-right factions and the struggle continues.
    This is grim dark future of the internet where is only war.
    Why? Because we want it this way.

  21. @Pericles
    @another anon

    Please, no sudden movements or raised voices, everyone, but this is a great moment in birdwatching. Right above we can see the long considered extinct David French voter.

    Replies: @Excal

    Right above we can see the long considered extinct David French voter.

    Nice one. 😀 😀 😀

    Mr. Dreher is a nice man (seriously), and a very good writer, but he’s also gullible. The things he gets excited about are an interesting sort of barometer of something — not sure what, but something.

    These days he’s almost a kind of Walter Sobchak of the Orthodox Church, but I predict he’ll go back to Catholicism before it’s all over. You (maybe) read it here first.

  22. “though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy”
    that’s what MSM says, following their usual agenda. Yet isn’t is funny, how such “diverting of attention” always movies into distinct directions? You could also over attention by allowing both christian aswell as muslim religious activities in the building or anything else.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @Erik Sieven

    No, allowing Christian activities in it would be contrary to the entire ethos Erdoğan has been encouraging in Turkey. A subtly and not so subtly anti-Christian one. When the Turkish police raid establishments of whatever kind, they sometimes plant stuff in the media about finding Turkish translations of the New Testament on a bookshelf, because shock, horror Christian missionaries were about! Don't forget that American clergyman being jailed for over a year, and it took repeated entreaties by Trump to get him released.
    Trying to divert attention from Corona and a myriad of other problems in Turkey is what this is about. Erdoğan is a Turkish Trump in some ways, but smarter, more skilled in pushing a religious agenda and more consistent.

    Replies: @Erik Sieven

  23. This has been fully expected ever since Erdogan and his backers set about the long, slow task of undoing the work of Kemal Ataturk. Anybody who is surprised at this either doesn’t know much about Turkey, or is play-acting.

    As Mr Karlin correctly points out, the building last changed owners in 1453. It was a mosque from then until 1935, when Ataturk made it a museum, which was not all that long ago. Considering that it is still the property of the Turkish government, I suppose they’re fully entitled to turn it into a hockey stadium if they want.

    So I am puzzled by all the public moaning and hand-wringing over this. Even Pope Francis, normally so chummy with Muslims, remarked that it made him “sad”.

    Here is my conspiracy theory: the moaners are really dog-whistling, and what they are saying is — “Go for it, Reccy. The most we’ll do is whinge. Enjoy your mosque.”

    It’s weak, but I don’t have anything better at the moment.

    • Replies: @Simplepseudonymichandle
    @Excal

    I think if you better understood it you'd know this is kind of like the Orthodox Christian Temple Mount and the mosque is like the Dome of the Rock. It's really not a small matter although it would be a lot easier for Turkey's Muslim's to do the People of the Book a solid and retreat to the Blue Mosque, than for Muslims writ large to give up the Dome of the Rock.

    Replies: @Excal

  24. There is a theory the the October Revolution happened in order to allow Palestine become a Jewish Homeland.

    The October Revolution and Balfour Declaration happened within a week of each other.

    Holy Russia would never have agreed to Palestine becoming a Jewish Homeland. The Bolsheviks could not care less.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @Jon Halpenny

    The Tsarist government was too weakened by WW1 to do anything, the Provisional government likewise. If there was one power stopping both from doing anything re Constantinople, it was Germany.

  25. 80IQ Slav barbarians like Karlin are impressed with strongman shit from people like Erdogan, but more rational folk should be worried about another Islamized failed state on Europe’s doorstep.

    BUILD THE WALL!

  26. @Erik Sieven
    "though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy"
    that's what MSM says, following their usual agenda. Yet isn't is funny, how such "diverting of attention" always movies into distinct directions? You could also over attention by allowing both christian aswell as muslim religious activities in the building or anything else.

    Replies: @Wielgus

    No, allowing Christian activities in it would be contrary to the entire ethos Erdoğan has been encouraging in Turkey. A subtly and not so subtly anti-Christian one. When the Turkish police raid establishments of whatever kind, they sometimes plant stuff in the media about finding Turkish translations of the New Testament on a bookshelf, because shock, horror Christian missionaries were about! Don’t forget that American clergyman being jailed for over a year, and it took repeated entreaties by Trump to get him released.
    Trying to divert attention from Corona and a myriad of other problems in Turkey is what this is about. Erdoğan is a Turkish Trump in some ways, but smarter, more skilled in pushing a religious agenda and more consistent.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    @Wielgus

    that's what I mean. MSM tries to downplay this but of course the AKP has a islamist agenda.

  27. @Jon Halpenny
    There is a theory the the October Revolution happened in order to allow Palestine become a Jewish Homeland.

    The October Revolution and Balfour Declaration happened within a week of each other.

    Holy Russia would never have agreed to Palestine becoming a Jewish Homeland. The Bolsheviks could not care less.

    Replies: @Wielgus

    The Tsarist government was too weakened by WW1 to do anything, the Provisional government likewise. If there was one power stopping both from doing anything re Constantinople, it was Germany.

  28. @Ano4
    Meanwhile the Great Mosque of Cordoba remains a Cathedral despite being mostly empty in the modern age secularized Spain (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    Muslims have often asked the Catholic Church to get the Cordoba Mezquita back and were flatly rejected every time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_campaign_at_C%C3%B3rdoba_Cathedral

    Replies: @Pericles, @Kent Nationalist, @Hyperborean, @songbird

    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Kent Nationalist

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective, all three Abrahamic religions look similar in their tendency to force themselves onto the populations that have fallen under their control. This is the norm for the Abrahamic Monotheisms: assert dominance by any means available. Be meek if you have to, act violently if you must.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    , @TomDickHarry
    @Kent Nationalist


    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil
     
    On the one hand, the following batshit polytheist abomination is "true"...

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one God, but (ah! that killer "but," the basis for the oxymoron known as Monotheistic Trinitarianism) three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine persons".
     
    ...which is basically plagiarised from the extremist pagan hindoo Trimurthi, about the dawn-age delusions of Triple Deities such as, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The following is another resource about this age-old polytheist plagiarisation...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    --

    On the other hand, the following truest definition of Monotheism, is "wrong";


    Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent." : Holy Quran 112
     
    --

    Lol! Pagans!

    Replies: @Ano4, @Kent Nationalist, @anonymous coward

  29. Let me endeavor, very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. …. They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity.

    The barbarian power, which has been for centuries seated in the very heart of the Old World, which has in its brute clutch the most famous countries of classical and religious antiquity and many of the most fruitful and beautiful regions of the earth; and, which, having no history itself, is heir to the historical names of Constantinople and Nicaea, Nicomedia and Caesarea, Jerusalem and Damascus, Nineva and Babylon, Mecca and Bagdad, Antioch and Alexandria, ignorantly holding in its possession one half of the history of the whole world.

    • Replies: @JamesMcFiddle
    @Kent Nationalist

    Belloc?

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  30. This isn’t some “sovereign matter” by Turkey, but an act of aggression against non-Muslims. An appropriate retaliation would be a ban on constructing new mosques in Russia, taking down every minaret in Russia…Instead, Putin will probably invite Erdogan to open a new mosque! Putin’s orthodox posturing is all for show.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Felix Keverich

    Ten times as many mosques were constructed in late Tsarist Russia in Moscow and SPB in per capita terms (about two) as in post-Soviet Moscow and SPB (also about two).

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

  31. In “orthodox” Romania turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque was not big news. The patriarch issued a statement expressing the wish it will remain a museum, but the statement from the pope got more media coverage.
    The romanian church is still reeling after their failed attempt to stop compulsory sex ed in schools.
    The law that banned some transgender identity stuff was blocked by the president and will probably be struck down by the Constitutional Court.
    With a german president and a hungarian prime-minister is the first time in history when romanian leadership is not even nominally orthodox (except the communist period of course but Dej and Ceausescu had been born in orthodoxy and didn’t do much to oppress the orthodox church compared with Russia) and the rising star of romanian politics, the USR party, is pretty woke and many of its supporters are the I-fucking-love-science type with accompanying aughts antitheism.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @SIMP simp


    The romanian church is still reeling after their failed attempt to stop compulsory sex ed in schools.
    The law that banned some transgender identity stuff was blocked by the president and will probably be struck down by the Constitutional Court.
     
    Eastern Europe is getting Pozzed real fast. Faster even than I expected.
  32. @Felix Keverich
    This isn't some "sovereign matter" by Turkey, but an act of aggression against non-Muslims. An appropriate retaliation would be a ban on constructing new mosques in Russia, taking down every minaret in Russia...Instead, Putin will probably invite Erdogan to open a new mosque! Putin's orthodox posturing is all for show.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Ten times as many mosques were constructed in late Tsarist Russia in Moscow and SPB in per capita terms (about two) as in post-Soviet Moscow and SPB (also about two).

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What about Chechnya and Tatarstan?

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

  33. @Pericles
    @Ano4

    And what about the rest of Spain? Belonged to muslims, so unfair that it was violently stolen by Christians.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Everyone steals something from someone else in this world of ours, except for those who use photosynthesis to grow. I don’t think that Muslims belong to this photosynthetic category.

    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective Christianity and Islam are quite similar in their tendency to force themselves down the throats of the people that fall under their control. This is what Abrahamic religions do.

    • Agree: melanf, Escher
    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4


    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.
     
    The world would have been so much better if none of these things happened. Can you imagine hiking or exploring the Algerian or Moroccan desert, the Afghan mountains with their giant Buddhas, without worrying about getting beheaded? A Christian Algeria or Morocco would have been a truly amazing place.

    Replies: @Ano4

  34. @Kent Nationalist
    @Ano4

    There's a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil

    Replies: @Ano4, @TomDickHarry

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective, all three Abrahamic religions look similar in their tendency to force themselves onto the populations that have fallen under their control. This is the norm for the Abrahamic Monotheisms: assert dominance by any means available. Be meek if you have to, act violently if you must.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Ano4


    Abrahamic
     
    That word is a marker of an NPC bugman if I ever saw one.
    , @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Ano4

    As opposed to other religions which spread through... what? Something more "organic" than force? Because you just have a fondness for the noble savage myth? Or you genuinely believe that other religions weren't compulsory before "Abrahamic" (idiot term) religions wrecked everyone's good time? All religions (including, and especially, secular tolerance) are and always have been compulsory, from a purely historical perspective you sound like a teenager on r/atheism.

    But since you've made the asinine comparison between the three "Abrahamic" religions, it only takes a minute to see how full of utter crap you are. Islam has spread almost exclusively through conquest (even in the "core" islamic world of the near east and North Africa), whereas Christianity has spread primarily through conversion (almost exclusively through conversion outside of the Americas, and no, Kings converting isn't conquest). Talmudism hasn't spread much outside of the Jewish diaspora at all, so I don't even know what you mean to say there, other than that religious Jews who gain power follow their religion? Meaningless statement if so, would apply to anyone, regardless of what one thinks of the particulars of jewish influence.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Daniel Chieh

  35. Putin’s orthodox posturing is all for show

    This is a rather vague statement that has been used to describe every Russian leader since Vladimir the Great
    What is the point of screaming at Turks and dreaming about declaring war on them and retaking Hagia Sophia when Christianity is under heavy attack and on the decline in Orthodox Countries?

    And on this matter he has performed perfectly fine, from Church construction to honoring Christian Holidays and allowing the ROC to influence the military, it is not a perfect record but compare and contrast to major Western states and suddenly it seems a lot better

  36. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Felix Keverich

    Ten times as many mosques were constructed in late Tsarist Russia in Moscow and SPB in per capita terms (about two) as in post-Soviet Moscow and SPB (also about two).

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    What about Chechnya and Tatarstan?

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @Felix Keverich

    Not to mention Samara, Saratov, Rostov, Ingushetia, and Ufa. Islam is the religion of the future in Russia.

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Philip Owen

  37. If whites and Christians were willing to act like Muslims, or like Crusaders during the Crusades, the West would actually be in a lot better shape, has that thought not occured to anybody? You cannot have things both ways, and you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, regardless of collateral damage, has that thought also not occured to anybody?

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Znzn

    If the West were culturally and spiritually vigorous, it would be in better shape. The Crusades were a symptom of civilizational vigor, not a cause. If we Crusaded today, we would just be LARPing, our hearts wouldn't be in it.

    , @dfordoom
    @Znzn


    If whites and Christians were willing to act like Muslims, or like Crusaders during the Crusades, the West would actually be in a lot better shape, has that thought not occured to anybody?
     
    The West still does act like that, but not for religious reasons. Western imperialism is alive and well. The West is still imposing its values on the entire planet. They're just not Christian values. But the arrogance is still there.
  38. @Ano4
    @Kent Nationalist

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective, all three Abrahamic religions look similar in their tendency to force themselves onto the populations that have fallen under their control. This is the norm for the Abrahamic Monotheisms: assert dominance by any means available. Be meek if you have to, act violently if you must.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Abrahamic

    That word is a marker of an NPC bugman if I ever saw one.

    • Troll: Ano4
  39. Lol! This piece of shite loser cancelled me. Rofl!!

  40. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    Punishment for Pope Bart, punishment for Greek Orthodox modernism. At least we still have the great and ancient Russian sobors.

    I will also allow that there is a prophecy by an Athonite monk who said that one day Russia would fight Turkey, killing one third, driving off one third and converting one third. Russia has nukes, Turkey does not. USA and China take each other out and suddenly strange things can happen.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @TomDickHarry

    If there is any mass converting, anywhere, it will be only the pagan polytheist mangods-worshippers converting to the religion of pure unbending monotheism… Islam!!

    God willing!

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    @TomDickHarry

    Said the Mohammed-worshipper...

    Yeah, technically Mohammed is not a demigod, but in practice... He's worshipped as one. You have to write pbuh, can't draw him, 90% of muzzles are called Mohammed or some variation thereof. No, thanks. No Arab religion for me.

  41. @Mr. Hack
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    That's the ticket Brother, a modern day crusade directed this time from Moscow, where Turkey is nuked into Christian submission - are you for real???........

    Replies: @El Dato, @Svevlad

    The future is yet to be written.

    Shai-Hulud will rise at unexpected moments etc.

    • LOL: Ano4
  42. The contrast between Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor vs. the sight of the Western world toppling the monuments of its founding fathers obviously begs to be made, though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy.

    Despite massive state propaganda and funding, Turks are merely a few steps behind the rest of the decadentists, and like other countries it will be driven to a large extent by generational change.

    The president has trebled the number of religious İmam Hatip high schools in the country, steadily increased funding for Turkey’s religious affairs directorate and increased the powers of local muktars, or community leaders, who are usually pious men.

    Yet a study by Sakarya university and the ministry of education from earlier this year looking at religious curricula in Turkey’s school system found that students are “resisting compulsory religion lessons, the government’s ‘religious generation’ project and the concept of religion altogether”.

    Almost half of the teachers interviewed said their students were increasingly likely to describe themselves as atheists, deists or feminists, and challenge the interpretation of Islam being taught at school.

    Polling by the agency Konda in 2019 also found that people aged 15-29 described themselves as less “religiously conservative” than older generations, and less religious than the same age group a decade earlier – respondents said they did not necessarily cover their hair, pray regularly or fast during Ramadan.

    The overall drop in people who described themselves as religiously conservative was 7%, down from 32% in 2008, and those who said they fast during Ramadan declined from 77% to 65%.

    The shift away from religion among Turkey’s younger generation follows a trend seen in many industralised countries. But some wonder if it is also a backlash to almost two decades of the AKP’s pushy brand of political Islam.

    The 2019 survey only revealed a slight drop in religiosity overall. In a country where around half of the 82-million-strong population is under 30, however, even small societal attitude changes could have a dramatic impact on Turkish politics in future.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/turkish-students-increasingly-resisting-religion-study-suggests

    Every year that passes the Kurdish population grows larger and larger in comparison to the Turks.

    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.

    Erdogan has provoked EU, Israel, US, Egypt, UAE, Russia, Syria, etc. at various times during his reign with little to show for it. So far his only victories are a few pieces of Syria, slight weakening of the Syrian Kurds, Qatar as an ally (Libya is still inconclusive).

    Erdogan has only pyrrhic victories to show for his efforts.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean


    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.
     
    Whoops, meant say Northwest.
    , @Escher
    @Hyperborean

    10 years of Facebook did what hundreds of years of the crusades couldn’t.

    , @Amerimutt Golems
    @Hyperborean

    Israel has the same demographic dilemma. Instead of Kurds it's Arabs who could become the dominant ethnic group.

    Replies: @A123

  43. @Ano4
    Meanwhile the Great Mosque of Cordoba remains a Cathedral despite being mostly empty in the modern age secularized Spain (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    Muslims have often asked the Catholic Church to get the Cordoba Mezquita back and were flatly rejected every time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_campaign_at_C%C3%B3rdoba_Cathedral

    Replies: @Pericles, @Kent Nationalist, @Hyperborean, @songbird

    (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    In reality, Erdogan is like a third-rate version of ROC officials who build new churches without working to actually get any people in them.

    It is also full of veiled symbolism that the public can only learn from its designers, like six minarets representing the six articles of the faith. Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory of the Seljuks against the Byzantine army that cemented Muslim rule in Anatolia. Its 72-meter high main dome represents what builders say are the 72 nations that lived in the city. The secondary dome has a diameter of 34 meters after the license plate number for the city. The interior of the dome is inscribed with 16 adjectives attributed to Allah, and it also symbolizes the number of states founded by Turks in history. Atop the main dome is a three-piece finial that weighs 4.5 tons, and at a height of 7.77 meters, the largest of its kind.

    And let us not forget the attendance of the glorious presidents of Albania, Guinea and Senegal!

    Delegations from several countries joined President Erdoğan for the opening. Among dignitaries attending the ceremony were Albanian President Ilir Meta, Guinean President Alpha Conde and Senegalese President Macky Sall. Muslim scholars and religious figures from Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Azerbaijan, Iran, Greece, Montenegro, Palestine and Qatar were also present at the opening.

    https://www.dailysabah.com/istanbul/2019/05/03/erdogan-inaugurates-turkeys-biggest-place-of-worship-grand-camlica-mosque-in-istanbul

    • LOL: Ano4
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean


    Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory
     
    But isn’t 1071 the Christian year? Don’t Muslims use a different calendar?

    That’s pretty fake and gay.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  44. In Britain it’s common to turn churches into bars and nightclubs, so is a mosque really so bad?

    I have to laugh how British civ nat types on Breitbart complain about the Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque, yet usually don’t say a word about churches in Britain being shut in their dozens each year and being removed of all spiritual significance and turned into nothing but tools of capitalism.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    Many low Anglican churches are already indistinguishable from cafes or social clubs on the inside.

  45. What you lose you can gain back.

    The Muslims will keep it up well.

  46. @Europe Europa
    In Britain it's common to turn churches into bars and nightclubs, so is a mosque really so bad?

    I have to laugh how British civ nat types on Breitbart complain about the Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque, yet usually don't say a word about churches in Britain being shut in their dozens each year and being removed of all spiritual significance and turned into nothing but tools of capitalism.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Many low Anglican churches are already indistinguishable from cafes or social clubs on the inside.

  47. @A123
    Apparently Erdogan is determined to create a conflict with Putin. One of Putin's key constituencies, Orthodox Christians, are openly pushing him towards a strong response. (1)

    Ivan Savvidis, a Russian-Georgian billionaire of Pontic Greek origins, who is also a former member of the Russian Parliament, has appealed to Russian President Vladimir Putin to take a strong position in defending Orthodox Christians against Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia from a museum to a mosque.
     
    Erdogan's egregious provocations lack anything resembling strategy. He is picking fights with everyone simultaneously:

    -- U.S. (F-35 / S400)
    -- Europe (Med resource claims)
    -- Europe again, U.S. again, Egypt (Libya)
    -- Russia (Syria invasion)
    -- Russia again plus Greece (Theft of Orthodox holy sites)

    The underutilized Blue Mosque (a.k.a. Sultan Ahmet) is ~250 yards away. (2) There is no credible claim for space. The only explanation is Erdogan's personal hate & contempt towards all Infidels, in this case specifically Orthodox Christians.

    It is no longer a question about "if" there will be consequences to Turkey for Erdogan's hideous behaviour. The questions are about "when" and "how severe".

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/07/11/savvidis-to-putin-russia-needs-to-once-again-defend-orthodoxy-and-pay-attention-to-hagia-sophia/

    (2) Photo of Blue Mosque (right) adjacent to Hagia Sophia.
    .
    https://gdb.rferl.org/17D1FFC3-7D08-46FA-B601-910B73B11BC6_w975_s.jpg
    .
    https://www.rferl.org/a/inside-hagia-sophia-the-ancient-religious-building-receonverted-into-mosque/30724028.html

    Replies: @TomDickHarry

    What, a post with almost nil rabidly Islamophobic venom?! Where is all the shrill pathetic bleating about, IslamoSoros, IslamoFacist, IslamoEvil…, your signature lines?

    You are getting soft, you pagan zio-chrizzie faeces-for-brains.

    PEACE 😉

  48. @Hyperborean

    The contrast between Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor vs. the sight of the Western world toppling the monuments of its founding fathers obviously begs to be made, though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy.
     
    Despite massive state propaganda and funding, Turks are merely a few steps behind the rest of the decadentists, and like other countries it will be driven to a large extent by generational change.


    The president has trebled the number of religious İmam Hatip high schools in the country, steadily increased funding for Turkey’s religious affairs directorate and increased the powers of local muktars, or community leaders, who are usually pious men.

    Yet a study by Sakarya university and the ministry of education from earlier this year looking at religious curricula in Turkey’s school system found that students are “resisting compulsory religion lessons, the government’s ‘religious generation’ project and the concept of religion altogether”.

    Almost half of the teachers interviewed said their students were increasingly likely to describe themselves as atheists, deists or feminists, and challenge the interpretation of Islam being taught at school.

    Polling by the agency Konda in 2019 also found that people aged 15-29 described themselves as less “religiously conservative” than older generations, and less religious than the same age group a decade earlier – respondents said they did not necessarily cover their hair, pray regularly or fast during Ramadan.

    The overall drop in people who described themselves as religiously conservative was 7%, down from 32% in 2008, and those who said they fast during Ramadan declined from 77% to 65%.

    The shift away from religion among Turkey’s younger generation follows a trend seen in many industralised countries. But some wonder if it is also a backlash to almost two decades of the AKP’s pushy brand of political Islam.

    The 2019 survey only revealed a slight drop in religiosity overall. In a country where around half of the 82-million-strong population is under 30, however, even small societal attitude changes could have a dramatic impact on Turkish politics in future.
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/turkish-students-increasingly-resisting-religion-study-suggests

    Every year that passes the Kurdish population grows larger and larger in comparison to the Turks.

    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.

    Erdogan has provoked EU, Israel, US, Egypt, UAE, Russia, Syria, etc. at various times during his reign with little to show for it. So far his only victories are a few pieces of Syria, slight weakening of the Syrian Kurds, Qatar as an ally (Libya is still inconclusive).

    Erdogan has only pyrrhic victories to show for his efforts.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Escher, @Amerimutt Golems

    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.

    Whoops, meant say Northwest.

  49. @Not Only Wrathful
    The Blue Mosque smells so strongly of feet that it makes you gag. I really hope Hagia Sophia doesn't go the same way.

    Replies: @TomDickHarry, @Escher

    Where you are headed, you will be puking out your insides… pagan godless scum.

    • Disagree: gate666
    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
  50. @Wielgus
    @Erik Sieven

    No, allowing Christian activities in it would be contrary to the entire ethos Erdoğan has been encouraging in Turkey. A subtly and not so subtly anti-Christian one. When the Turkish police raid establishments of whatever kind, they sometimes plant stuff in the media about finding Turkish translations of the New Testament on a bookshelf, because shock, horror Christian missionaries were about! Don't forget that American clergyman being jailed for over a year, and it took repeated entreaties by Trump to get him released.
    Trying to divert attention from Corona and a myriad of other problems in Turkey is what this is about. Erdoğan is a Turkish Trump in some ways, but smarter, more skilled in pushing a religious agenda and more consistent.

    Replies: @Erik Sieven

    that’s what I mean. MSM tries to downplay this but of course the AKP has a islamist agenda.

  51. 128 says:

    Well it seems like the corona hoaxers and skeptics are a lot more aggressive in pushing their views, compared to the corona accepters on this site, I mean Steve Sailer has just basically pretended that corona stop existing? Probably pandering to his audience, but then fighting with 95 percent of your commenters in the comments section, and them tuning you out and stop donating to you must be dispiriting.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @128

    Why do you keep switching pseudonyms and why do you keep posing statements as questions?

  52. @128
    Well it seems like the corona hoaxers and skeptics are a lot more aggressive in pushing their views, compared to the corona accepters on this site, I mean Steve Sailer has just basically pretended that corona stop existing? Probably pandering to his audience, but then fighting with 95 percent of your commenters in the comments section, and them tuning you out and stop donating to you must be dispiriting.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Why do you keep switching pseudonyms and why do you keep posing statements as questions?

  53. @Hyperborean

    The contrast between Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor vs. the sight of the Western world toppling the monuments of its founding fathers obviously begs to be made, though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy.
     
    Despite massive state propaganda and funding, Turks are merely a few steps behind the rest of the decadentists, and like other countries it will be driven to a large extent by generational change.


    The president has trebled the number of religious İmam Hatip high schools in the country, steadily increased funding for Turkey’s religious affairs directorate and increased the powers of local muktars, or community leaders, who are usually pious men.

    Yet a study by Sakarya university and the ministry of education from earlier this year looking at religious curricula in Turkey’s school system found that students are “resisting compulsory religion lessons, the government’s ‘religious generation’ project and the concept of religion altogether”.

    Almost half of the teachers interviewed said their students were increasingly likely to describe themselves as atheists, deists or feminists, and challenge the interpretation of Islam being taught at school.

    Polling by the agency Konda in 2019 also found that people aged 15-29 described themselves as less “religiously conservative” than older generations, and less religious than the same age group a decade earlier – respondents said they did not necessarily cover their hair, pray regularly or fast during Ramadan.

    The overall drop in people who described themselves as religiously conservative was 7%, down from 32% in 2008, and those who said they fast during Ramadan declined from 77% to 65%.

    The shift away from religion among Turkey’s younger generation follows a trend seen in many industralised countries. But some wonder if it is also a backlash to almost two decades of the AKP’s pushy brand of political Islam.

    The 2019 survey only revealed a slight drop in religiosity overall. In a country where around half of the 82-million-strong population is under 30, however, even small societal attitude changes could have a dramatic impact on Turkish politics in future.
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/turkish-students-increasingly-resisting-religion-study-suggests

    Every year that passes the Kurdish population grows larger and larger in comparison to the Turks.

    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.

    Erdogan has provoked EU, Israel, US, Egypt, UAE, Russia, Syria, etc. at various times during his reign with little to show for it. So far his only victories are a few pieces of Syria, slight weakening of the Syrian Kurds, Qatar as an ally (Libya is still inconclusive).

    Erdogan has only pyrrhic victories to show for his efforts.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Escher, @Amerimutt Golems

    10 years of Facebook did what hundreds of years of the crusades couldn’t.

    • LOL: Amerimutt Golems
  54. @Ano4
    Meanwhile the Great Mosque of Cordoba remains a Cathedral despite being mostly empty in the modern age secularized Spain (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).

    Muslims have often asked the Catholic Church to get the Cordoba Mezquita back and were flatly rejected every time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_campaign_at_C%C3%B3rdoba_Cathedral

    Replies: @Pericles, @Kent Nationalist, @Hyperborean, @songbird

    The mosque at Cordoba was made from the masonry of an earlier Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings. The fight over it is just a proxy fight for immigration.

    Muslims are always looking for legitimacy in Europe, so that they can facilitate their continued invasion. It is one reason that Turkey is promoted as being a part of Europe.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    , @Ano4
    @songbird


    Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings
     
    1) Visigothic, from West Gothic, not Visogothic
    2) In fact the older basilica that has been used to build the Mesquita was Roman
    3) At the start of the Cordoba Caliphate, Christians and Muslims shared the building
    4) The West Goths were Monophysite and were at odds with the local Trinitarian Christians (Orthodox Catholics, it was before the schism)
    5) The West Goths were a small military elite ruling upon the bulk Iberian population
    6) Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism was known for sadistic cruelty.
    7) Probably that is why the only Spanish word that is traced to the Goth language is verdugo = executioner.
    8) The Monophysite Arians and the king Ricardo Catholic followers were fighting a civil war.
    9) Muslims have been allied to the Monophysite side of the conflict.
    10) After the mayhem of the last years of the Visigotic rule, the Muslim conquerors have been greeted as liberators and peace makers by the Iberian Christians (both Monophysite and Catholics) and the very numerous Iberian Jews.

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    😉

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @German_reader

  55. @Kent Nationalist
    @Ano4

    There's a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil

    Replies: @Ano4, @TomDickHarry

    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil

    On the one hand, the following batshit polytheist abomination is “true”…

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one God, but (ah! that killer “but,” the basis for the oxymoron known as Monotheistic Trinitarianism) three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as “one God in three Divine persons”.

    …which is basically plagiarised from the extremist pagan hindoo Trimurthi, about the dawn-age delusions of Triple Deities such as, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The following is another resource about this age-old polytheist plagiarisation…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    On the other hand, the following truest definition of Monotheism, is “wrong”;

    Say, “He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.” : Holy Quran 112

    Lol! Pagans!

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @TomDickHarry

    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive?

    Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?

    Replies: @A123

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @TomDickHarry

    Bizarre that you attack Christianity in a way which is inconsistent with the paedophile plagiarist who invented your religion

    , @anonymous coward
    @TomDickHarry

    Islam teaches that the Koran is uncreated (!) and co-eternal (!!) with Allah.

    Yes or no? One-word answer, please.

  56. @songbird
    @Ano4

    The mosque at Cordoba was made from the masonry of an earlier Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings. The fight over it is just a proxy fight for immigration.

    Muslims are always looking for legitimacy in Europe, so that they can facilitate their continued invasion. It is one reason that Turkey is promoted as being a part of Europe.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Ano4

    Doesn’t the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to “prove” that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Europe Europa


    Doesn’t the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion
     
    Hmm, ach so -

    1) Islam is a legitimate native European religion 2) Britain, however, is a fake country with no legitimacy as a nation state 3) European whites should distance themselves from Jews.

    Very, very naughty of you not to declare at the outset what you were. Bad boy.
    , @songbird
    @Europe Europa

    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I've known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones. I don't think it has the importance or the psychological impact of Turkey, as these other Muslim states or statelets in Europe, Albania and Kosovo are really just offshoots of the original Turkish power, and the Turks were mainline civilizational antagonists and have formidable numbers compared to Albanians.

    Once the door is open to Turkey, it seems as there can be no closing it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Agathoklis

    , @Wency
    @Europe Europa

    It's more basic than that. If Albanians are Turks, they are conquerors, invaders. Serbia is punching up at them. If they're Europeans, then bigger Serbia is punching down at them.

    From a propaganda standpoint, punching up is always better.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Europe Europa


    Doesn’t the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.
     
    This proves just as little as Hinduism and Buddhism "proves" the similarity of Indians and Chinese/Koreans/Japanese.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to “prove” that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.
     
    Shqiptars engage in the same type of Balkan trashtalk one-upmanship ex. claiming that Greeks are an 19th century invention by "Romans".
    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    There are Europeans who convert to Buddhism; does that make Buddhism a European Religion?

  57. Erdogan being obnoxious is positive. Imagine if he had been obsequious to the EU from the start.

  58. @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    Doesn’t the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion

    Hmm, ach so –

    1) Islam is a legitimate native European religion 2) Britain, however, is a fake country with no legitimacy as a nation state 3) European whites should distance themselves from Jews.

    Very, very naughty of you not to declare at the outset what you were. Bad boy.

  59. @songbird
    @Ano4

    The mosque at Cordoba was made from the masonry of an earlier Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings. The fight over it is just a proxy fight for immigration.

    Muslims are always looking for legitimacy in Europe, so that they can facilitate their continued invasion. It is one reason that Turkey is promoted as being a part of Europe.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @Ano4

    Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings

    1) Visigothic, from West Gothic, not Visogothic
    2) In fact the older basilica that has been used to build the Mesquita was Roman
    3) At the start of the Cordoba Caliphate, Christians and Muslims shared the building
    4) The West Goths were Monophysite and were at odds with the local Trinitarian Christians (Orthodox Catholics, it was before the schism)
    5) The West Goths were a small military elite ruling upon the bulk Iberian population
    6) Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism was known for sadistic cruelty.
    7) Probably that is why the only Spanish word that is traced to the Goth language is verdugo = executioner.
    8) The Monophysite Arians and the king Ricardo Catholic followers were fighting a civil war.
    9) Muslims have been allied to the Monophysite side of the conflict.
    10) After the mayhem of the last years of the Visigotic rule, the Muslim conquerors have been greeted as liberators and peace makers by the Iberian Christians (both Monophysite and Catholics) and the very numerous Iberian Jews.

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    😉

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    Other than that you are absolutely correct.
     
    You didn't respond to the accusation that it is a power play by Muslim settlers in Europe.

    In any case your original equivalence is invalid, Hagia Sophia was neutralised as a museum. Converting the Cathedral of Cordoba into a museum obviously won't satisfy the agitators.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @songbird
    @Ano4

    I'm sensing that you would choose another "Dark Age" regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era. A new regime is often attractive at first. Of course, in time, as the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen, they became rather less benign.

    Jews ended up moving North. Though, I don't know if I would use their movements, and what gates they might have opened to pick sides, in a moral sense, at least certainly not based on today. But if you are trying to make the Jewish case, I think it at least depends on the year. Maybe, they welcomed the Visigoths when they first came. Who knows?

    IMO, the Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished by the Moors while that of the Moors still exists to admire. You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage, but so we're the Normans at first. In time, the Normans became faithful, mainstream Christians and led notable Crusades. As to the fact that the Visigoths lost Spain, there were many people unprepared for the Arab conquests. I suspect that Spain was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces, especially those used to fighting in arid conditions.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @German_reader
    @Ano4


    Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism
     
    He wasn't the last Visigothic king, the Visigothic realm had more of a century of history after him left, and any conflict between Arians and Catholics was long past by 711 (and while my Christological knowledge is shaky, iirc Arians can't be described as monophysites, the issue with them was about the relationship between God the father and Christ, not about Christ's two natures). In the 7th century there was very close cooperation between the Visigothic kings and the Catholic church, manifested in the great councils of Toledo (which were important for later canon law); in many ways it was a continuation of Late Roman models on a lesser scale. The late Visigothic kings were also anointed decades before Pepin received royal unction in 751, so it seems like Visigothic Spain might have even been in the vanguard of developments in Latin Europe, before the Islamic invasion interrupted everything.
    Re the Islamic invasion: There probably was some civil strife in Visigothic Spain about a disputed royal succession (the kingship was elective, if maybe limited to certain lineages iirc; but there was no clear father-son succession), and one faction may have foolishly invited Islamic mercenaries for aid (hard to know for certain, the sources are bad). But the internal conflict didn't have any religious dimension and it's pure speculation to state that anybody greeted the Muslims as "liberators" (not even clear regarding the Jews; there was severe anti-Jewish legislation by the Visigothic kings, but some scholars claim there weren't actually any large Jewish communities in Spain before the Islamic invasion).
    Roger Collins, Early Medieval Spain: Unity in diversity 400-1000 is good on this period imo (despite what one might suspect from the title it isn't a multiculti propaganda piece).

    Anyway, you were wrong about a lot of issues, so don't be so excessively self-confident towards other users ("Other than that you are absolutely correct").
    I'll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to "Hyperborean" and "Songbird" too, always liked you guys.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

  60. @Znzn
    If whites and Christians were willing to act like Muslims, or like Crusaders during the Crusades, the West would actually be in a lot better shape, has that thought not occured to anybody? You cannot have things both ways, and you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, regardless of collateral damage, has that thought also not occured to anybody?

    Replies: @Wency, @dfordoom

    If the West were culturally and spiritually vigorous, it would be in better shape. The Crusades were a symptom of civilizational vigor, not a cause. If we Crusaded today, we would just be LARPing, our hearts wouldn’t be in it.

  61. @TomDickHarry
    @Kent Nationalist


    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil
     
    On the one hand, the following batshit polytheist abomination is "true"...

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one God, but (ah! that killer "but," the basis for the oxymoron known as Monotheistic Trinitarianism) three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine persons".
     
    ...which is basically plagiarised from the extremist pagan hindoo Trimurthi, about the dawn-age delusions of Triple Deities such as, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The following is another resource about this age-old polytheist plagiarisation...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    --

    On the other hand, the following truest definition of Monotheism, is "wrong";


    Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent." : Holy Quran 112
     
    --

    Lol! Pagans!

    Replies: @Ano4, @Kent Nationalist, @anonymous coward

    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive?

    Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4


    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?
     
    Yes. Allah wants to exterminate God, but as a Fallen one does not have the power to do so.

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive? Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?
     
    Yes. All infidels including (but not limited to):

    -- Christians
    -- Jews
    -- Buddhists
    -- Shintoists
    -- Taoists
    -- Hindus

    I could go on, but everyone rational sees my point.

    Allah, the enemy of God, has little power. Allah's Evil can only dominate those who willingly condemn themselves to eternal damnation by following the Satanic Verses of the Quran.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

  62. @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I’ve known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones. I don’t think it has the importance or the psychological impact of Turkey, as these other Muslim states or statelets in Europe, Albania and Kosovo are really just offshoots of the original Turkish power, and the Turks were mainline civilizational antagonists and have formidable numbers compared to Albanians.

    Once the door is open to Turkey, it seems as there can be no closing it.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I’ve known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones.
     
    An Albanian boy I went to school with is the only self-declared Muslim I have met who has said eating pork is in accordance with Islam, despite this I think, if my memory serves me faithfully, he did observe Ramadan.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Agathoklis
    @songbird

    The Muslims in Albania (and Kosovo) are mostly converted Slavs which primarily follow Sunni Islam and Bektashi Shiism. Saudi Arabia and Turkey have battled it out for the hearts and minds of the Sunnis but given 70 years of Communism and general apathy towards religion, many Albanian Muslims are only nominal Muslims. There are also small communities of Alevis.

    A lot of the north is Roman Catholic but Albanian in ethnicity and much of the south is Greek Orthodox. Most of that community is ethnically Greek with supposed autonomy but there are also ethnically Albanian Greek Orthodox scattered across the south and centre. The Greek Orthodox Church of Greece has made significant inroads by building schools and churches after 70 years of enforced atheism but the Albanian state does not adhere to its agreements and has allowed some Albanian nationalist to run wild.

    Religion in Albania (less so Kosovo) is definitely a mixed bag. Even the Muslim community is significantly divided. We should also note fertility rates are fast approaching European levels. Muslims powers have made an effort but long term it is unlikely Albanian Islam will represent a problem for Europe.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  63. @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    It’s more basic than that. If Albanians are Turks, they are conquerors, invaders. Serbia is punching up at them. If they’re Europeans, then bigger Serbia is punching down at them.

    From a propaganda standpoint, punching up is always better.

  64. @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    Doesn’t the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    This proves just as little as Hinduism and Buddhism “proves” the similarity of Indians and Chinese/Koreans/Japanese.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to “prove” that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Shqiptars engage in the same type of Balkan trashtalk one-upmanship ex. claiming that Greeks are an 19th century invention by “Romans”.

  65. @Ano4
    @TomDickHarry

    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive?

    Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?

    Replies: @A123

    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?

    Yes. Allah wants to exterminate God, but as a Fallen one does not have the power to do so.

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive? Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?

    Yes. All infidels including (but not limited to):

    — Christians
    — Jews
    — Buddhists
    — Shintoists
    — Taoists
    — Hindus

    I could go on, but everyone rational sees my point.

    Allah, the enemy of God, has little power. Allah’s Evil can only dominate those who willingly condemn themselves to eternal damnation by following the Satanic Verses of the Quran.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123

    Psychotic much?

    Having tremors and drooling?

    This should help:

    https://www.drugs.com/pro/prochlorperazine-suppository.html

    Replies: @A123

  66. @Ano4
    @songbird


    Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings
     
    1) Visigothic, from West Gothic, not Visogothic
    2) In fact the older basilica that has been used to build the Mesquita was Roman
    3) At the start of the Cordoba Caliphate, Christians and Muslims shared the building
    4) The West Goths were Monophysite and were at odds with the local Trinitarian Christians (Orthodox Catholics, it was before the schism)
    5) The West Goths were a small military elite ruling upon the bulk Iberian population
    6) Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism was known for sadistic cruelty.
    7) Probably that is why the only Spanish word that is traced to the Goth language is verdugo = executioner.
    8) The Monophysite Arians and the king Ricardo Catholic followers were fighting a civil war.
    9) Muslims have been allied to the Monophysite side of the conflict.
    10) After the mayhem of the last years of the Visigotic rule, the Muslim conquerors have been greeted as liberators and peace makers by the Iberian Christians (both Monophysite and Catholics) and the very numerous Iberian Jews.

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    😉

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @German_reader

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    You didn’t respond to the accusation that it is a power play by Muslim settlers in Europe.

    In any case your original equivalence is invalid, Hagia Sophia was neutralised as a museum. Converting the Cathedral of Cordoba into a museum obviously won’t satisfy the agitators.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Hyperborean

    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  67. @Hyperborean

    The contrast between Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor vs. the sight of the Western world toppling the monuments of its founding fathers obviously begs to be made, though the cynic may rejoinder that it’s more of a banal ploy by Erdogan to divert attention from the state of its Corona-wracked economy.
     
    Despite massive state propaganda and funding, Turks are merely a few steps behind the rest of the decadentists, and like other countries it will be driven to a large extent by generational change.


    The president has trebled the number of religious İmam Hatip high schools in the country, steadily increased funding for Turkey’s religious affairs directorate and increased the powers of local muktars, or community leaders, who are usually pious men.

    Yet a study by Sakarya university and the ministry of education from earlier this year looking at religious curricula in Turkey’s school system found that students are “resisting compulsory religion lessons, the government’s ‘religious generation’ project and the concept of religion altogether”.

    Almost half of the teachers interviewed said their students were increasingly likely to describe themselves as atheists, deists or feminists, and challenge the interpretation of Islam being taught at school.

    Polling by the agency Konda in 2019 also found that people aged 15-29 described themselves as less “religiously conservative” than older generations, and less religious than the same age group a decade earlier – respondents said they did not necessarily cover their hair, pray regularly or fast during Ramadan.

    The overall drop in people who described themselves as religiously conservative was 7%, down from 32% in 2008, and those who said they fast during Ramadan declined from 77% to 65%.

    The shift away from religion among Turkey’s younger generation follows a trend seen in many industralised countries. But some wonder if it is also a backlash to almost two decades of the AKP’s pushy brand of political Islam.

    The 2019 survey only revealed a slight drop in religiosity overall. In a country where around half of the 82-million-strong population is under 30, however, even small societal attitude changes could have a dramatic impact on Turkish politics in future.
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/turkish-students-increasingly-resisting-religion-study-suggests

    Every year that passes the Kurdish population grows larger and larger in comparison to the Turks.

    The few million Arab refugees problem has still not been resolved despite the creation of the Northeast Syrian jihadist statelets.

    Erdogan has provoked EU, Israel, US, Egypt, UAE, Russia, Syria, etc. at various times during his reign with little to show for it. So far his only victories are a few pieces of Syria, slight weakening of the Syrian Kurds, Qatar as an ally (Libya is still inconclusive).

    Erdogan has only pyrrhic victories to show for his efforts.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Escher, @Amerimutt Golems

    Israel has the same demographic dilemma. Instead of Kurds it’s Arabs who could become the dominant ethnic group.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Amerimutt Golems


    Israel has the same demographic dilemma. Instead of Kurds it’s Arabs who could become the dominant ethnic group.
     
    The birth rate of Orthodox Jews is sufficient to ward off this threat.

    The situation is further helped by the fact that any serious peace plan will enable large numbers of non-native Muslims emigrate out of Islamic occupied Judea & Samaria. Helping the descendants of Jihadi invaders return to their ancestral homeland is a win-win solution.

    PEACE 😇
  68. @TomDickHarry
    @Kent Nationalist


    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil
     
    On the one hand, the following batshit polytheist abomination is "true"...

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one God, but (ah! that killer "but," the basis for the oxymoron known as Monotheistic Trinitarianism) three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine persons".
     
    ...which is basically plagiarised from the extremist pagan hindoo Trimurthi, about the dawn-age delusions of Triple Deities such as, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The following is another resource about this age-old polytheist plagiarisation...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    --

    On the other hand, the following truest definition of Monotheism, is "wrong";


    Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent." : Holy Quran 112
     
    --

    Lol! Pagans!

    Replies: @Ano4, @Kent Nationalist, @anonymous coward

    Bizarre that you attack Christianity in a way which is inconsistent with the paedophile plagiarist who invented your religion

  69. @Europe Europa
    @songbird

    Doesn't the existence of Albania more or less give Islam legitimacy as a native European religion? Obviously Christianity has been in Europe longer but both originate from the Middle East at the end of the day.

    I suspect one of the main reasons Serbs in particular are so desperate to "prove" that Albanians are non-European in origin, transplanted by the Ottomans as they often claim, is because if you accept that Albanians are as native European as anyone else then you basically have to accept Islam as a European religion.

    Replies: @AaronB, @songbird, @Wency, @Hyperborean, @Kent Nationalist

    There are Europeans who convert to Buddhism; does that make Buddhism a European Religion?

  70. @songbird
    @Europe Europa

    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I've known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones. I don't think it has the importance or the psychological impact of Turkey, as these other Muslim states or statelets in Europe, Albania and Kosovo are really just offshoots of the original Turkish power, and the Turks were mainline civilizational antagonists and have formidable numbers compared to Albanians.

    Once the door is open to Turkey, it seems as there can be no closing it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Agathoklis

    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I’ve known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones.

    An Albanian boy I went to school with is the only self-declared Muslim I have met who has said eating pork is in accordance with Islam, despite this I think, if my memory serves me faithfully, he did observe Ramadan.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    I've haven't eaten with Muslims in the U.S. frequently enough to judge their habits, but I have eaten with many Jews. Few of my Jewish acquaintances ever observed the prohibition against eating pork. Interestingly, those who did usually had a stereotypical Jewish phenotype - darker skin, etc.

    I would say that it doesn't seem to be directly important to identity, on an individual level. Those who ate it all had what I'd consider a strong ethnic identity. But I guess it is important on the level of religion. Without a strong religious identity, there will be more intermarriage, and less children, even where there is marriage with coethnics.

    I've heard the regime in Albania was militantly atheistic, even by communist standards. It'd be interesting to know whether they had a policy of cultivating pork consumption, or whether such lapses were due to the area being on the fringe.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  71. @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    Other than that you are absolutely correct.
     
    You didn't respond to the accusation that it is a power play by Muslim settlers in Europe.

    In any case your original equivalence is invalid, Hagia Sophia was neutralised as a museum. Converting the Cathedral of Cordoba into a museum obviously won't satisfy the agitators.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.
     
    Yes, so what was the meaning of the irrelevant historical anecdotes when this is the only salient point?

    Replies: @Ano4

  72. It shows generally a lowered civilization level Turkish politics of recent years, and can have at least a positive political effect in the sense of further reducing Turkey’s possibility for EU membership . In relation to Jesus, obviously – he would be shocked or lamenting about the argument, rather than being interested in the building, however well designed and opulent.

    So it is not strange that in modern times, where there is open access to the New Testament – the reaction of the subsection of Christians who read the New Testament fully and absorb its teaching, will be more like the reaction of Buddhists, than of Muslims, who might have burned down their own cities in anger if their most historically impressive mosques were converted to another religion.

    Have people here read New Testament? Not just selected quotes, but a whole text (it’s possible to read the text as a whole, with non-numbered plain text).

    In early parts of the texts, Jesus begins preaching in synagogues (on Sea of Galilee – there are still ruins of those modest buildings), but after the beginning of his career, he preaches itinerantly outside in fields and other peoples’ houses – all the time he is without any interest in buildings and insensitive to such things.

    Jesus is not only starting in modest buildings, but by the time he has followers, he does not use buildings at all. Obsession of grand buildings and ostentation, is very far from him.

    A one time someone could argue Jesus shows reverence to buildings is when he is Jerusalem, that he becomes angry about the buying and selling bazaar outside Herod’s Temple in pesach. But he was angry about meaning of the selling and trading (probably scamming), and the quote “‘Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”” is a paraphrase https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11%3A15%E2%80%9319&version=NRSV of the old testament.

    Jesus is paraphrasing old testament and failure to follow its message, rather than proposing that the building itself is important.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+56

    As a youth, Jesus himself has first developed his religious ideas in those courts outside the temple at passover. So he had childhood love of this area, but it’s sitting around in the courts outside (as he did years later, on his return to Jerusalem).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:41-Luke%202:48

    Jesus preaches equally everywhere, and one of his main teaching to followers is that “kingdom of god is within them”
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17%3A21&version=KJV

    Arguments about future use of some opulent master work of engineering and architecture, by Justinian – are rather against the views of Jesus, and therefore spiritual message of the religion.

    On the other hand, Muhammad would find this interesting, as he was primarily a tribal warlord of the Arabian peninsula, and for people who identify with his tribe to capture opulent buildings belonging to other tribes – is a greater symbol of power, than to build such a building.

    Islam was a Arabian nomad’s adaptation of Christianity/Judaism, and had originally valued things which were captured from other tribes, – which for nomadic cultures can be more valued than things which had been constructed by itself.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    So he had childhood love of this area, but it’s sitting around in the courts outside (as he did years later, on his return to Jerusalem).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:41-Luke%202:48
     
    In this experience, how really similar young Jesus was (or perhaps intentionally written like this, considering a high extent of Hellenization of the epoch) to Socrates.
    https://i.imgur.com/Vsb4Rij.jpg
    Young Jesus' parents had the experience of friends of Socrates, who are sometimes complain they cannot find him for days, as he was lost outside in the city teaching about philosophy in the courtyards.
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    And yet Jesus paid the highest compliment and deference to the great and Holy Temple in Jerusalem when he made a direct analogy comparing it to his own body, inferring that he would take its place within the New Jerusalem after His death and resurrection:


    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... Jesus was prophetically speaking about His own death, burial and resurrection. The temple was a symbol of His body. He laid in the tomb for three days and then was resurrected.
     
  73. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Hyperborean

    Israel has the same demographic dilemma. Instead of Kurds it's Arabs who could become the dominant ethnic group.

    Replies: @A123

    Israel has the same demographic dilemma. Instead of Kurds it’s Arabs who could become the dominant ethnic group.

    The birth rate of Orthodox Jews is sufficient to ward off this threat.

    The situation is further helped by the fact that any serious peace plan will enable large numbers of non-native Muslims emigrate out of Islamic occupied Judea & Samaria. Helping the descendants of Jihadi invaders return to their ancestral homeland is a win-win solution.

    PEACE 😇

  74. Also, the TFR of the highly educated secular Jews is close to 3.0, compared to Turkeys 1.6

  75. @Dmitry
    It shows generally a lowered civilization level Turkish politics of recent years, and can have at least a positive political effect in the sense of further reducing Turkey's possibility for EU membership . In relation to Jesus, obviously - he would be shocked or lamenting about the argument, rather than being interested in the building, however well designed and opulent.

    So it is not strange that in modern times, where there is open access to the New Testament - the reaction of the subsection of Christians who read the New Testament fully and absorb its teaching, will be more like the reaction of Buddhists, than of Muslims, who might have burned down their own cities in anger if their most historically impressive mosques were converted to another religion.

    -

    Have people here read New Testament? Not just selected quotes, but a whole text (it's possible to read the text as a whole, with non-numbered plain text).

    In early parts of the texts, Jesus begins preaching in synagogues (on Sea of Galilee - there are still ruins of those modest buildings), but after the beginning of his career, he preaches itinerantly outside in fields and other peoples' houses - all the time he is without any interest in buildings and insensitive to such things.

    Jesus is not only starting in modest buildings, but by the time he has followers, he does not use buildings at all. Obsession of grand buildings and ostentation, is very far from him.

    A one time someone could argue Jesus shows reverence to buildings is when he is Jerusalem, that he becomes angry about the buying and selling bazaar outside Herod's Temple in pesach. But he was angry about meaning of the selling and trading (probably scamming), and the quote "‘Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”" is a paraphrase https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11%3A15%E2%80%9319&version=NRSV of the old testament.

    Jesus is paraphrasing old testament and failure to follow its message, rather than proposing that the building itself is important.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+56

    As a youth, Jesus himself has first developed his religious ideas in those courts outside the temple at passover. So he had childhood love of this area, but it's sitting around in the courts outside (as he did years later, on his return to Jerusalem).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:41-Luke%202:48

    Jesus preaches equally everywhere, and one of his main teaching to followers is that "kingdom of god is within them"
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17%3A21&version=KJV

    -

    Arguments about future use of some opulent master work of engineering and architecture, by Justinian - are rather against the views of Jesus, and therefore spiritual message of the religion.

    On the other hand, Muhammad would find this interesting, as he was primarily a tribal warlord of the Arabian peninsula, and for people who identify with his tribe to capture opulent buildings belonging to other tribes - is a greater symbol of power, than to build such a building.

    Islam was a Arabian nomad's adaptation of Christianity/Judaism, and had originally valued things which were captured from other tribes, - which for nomadic cultures can be more valued than things which had been constructed by itself.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    So he had childhood love of this area, but it’s sitting around in the courts outside (as he did years later, on his return to Jerusalem).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:41-Luke%202:48

    In this experience, how really similar young Jesus was (or perhaps intentionally written like this, considering a high extent of Hellenization of the epoch) to Socrates. Young Jesus’ parents had the experience of friends of Socrates, who are sometimes complain they cannot find him for days, as he was lost outside in the city teaching about philosophy in the courtyards.

  76. @Ano4
    @Hyperborean

    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.

    Yes, so what was the meaning of the irrelevant historical anecdotes when this is the only salient point?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Hyperborean


    when this is the only salient point?
     
    And why should this be the only salient point?
  77. @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    I agreed that his accusation is correct. This is indeed a valid accusation. Muslims dreaming of recapturing Al Andalus is a well known fact.
     
    Yes, so what was the meaning of the irrelevant historical anecdotes when this is the only salient point?

    Replies: @Ano4

    when this is the only salient point?

    And why should this be the only salient point?

  78. @A123
    @Ano4


    Is there anything existing in this whole Creation that Allah the Almighty and All-knowing does not want being a part of the reality?
     
    Yes. Allah wants to exterminate God, but as a Fallen one does not have the power to do so.

    Is there anyone alive that Allah does not want to see alive? Anyone born without Allah willing him to be born?
     
    Yes. All infidels including (but not limited to):

    -- Christians
    -- Jews
    -- Buddhists
    -- Shintoists
    -- Taoists
    -- Hindus

    I could go on, but everyone rational sees my point.

    Allah, the enemy of God, has little power. Allah's Evil can only dominate those who willingly condemn themselves to eternal damnation by following the Satanic Verses of the Quran.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    Psychotic much?

    Having tremors and drooling?

    This should help:

    https://www.drugs.com/pro/prochlorperazine-suppository.html

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    No. I do not want to share your medication. Your crazed ranting has proved one thing. Some hallucinatory & delusionary disorders are untreatable.

    Try not to hurt yourself on the padded walls in your cell.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

  79. @Ano4
    @A123

    Psychotic much?

    Having tremors and drooling?

    This should help:

    https://www.drugs.com/pro/prochlorperazine-suppository.html

    Replies: @A123

    No. I do not want to share your medication. Your crazed ranting has proved one thing. Some hallucinatory & delusionary disorders are untreatable.

    Try not to hurt yourself on the padded walls in your cell.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123

    Thank you for your brilliant demonstration of the phenomenon of psychological transfer well known in psychiatry.

    Now go and take the medecine as prescribed.

    You'll feel much better afterwards.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @A123

  80. @A123
    @Ano4

    No. I do not want to share your medication. Your crazed ranting has proved one thing. Some hallucinatory & delusionary disorders are untreatable.

    Try not to hurt yourself on the padded walls in your cell.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    Thank you for your brilliant demonstration of the phenomenon of psychological transfer well known in psychiatry.

    Now go and take the medecine as prescribed.

    You’ll feel much better afterwards.

    😄

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Wonderful to see your calm Zen/Chan principles in action :)

    And so interesting that what leads you to totally lose your Zen cool is defense of Islam... :)

    You good friends with Europa Europa buddy?

    So nice to see, umm, non-Abrahamic principles in action...

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @A123
    @Ano4

    Why do you keep trying to transfer your broken Islamic psychology onto me?

    Everyone rational sees that your feeble efforts have no chance of working. I am a Christian, and my faith in God protects me from your Allah's Evil.

    As you have nothing to offer other than Satanic gibbering. Please be quite and let the rational adults talk.

    PEACE 😇

  81. @Dmitry
    It shows generally a lowered civilization level Turkish politics of recent years, and can have at least a positive political effect in the sense of further reducing Turkey's possibility for EU membership . In relation to Jesus, obviously - he would be shocked or lamenting about the argument, rather than being interested in the building, however well designed and opulent.

    So it is not strange that in modern times, where there is open access to the New Testament - the reaction of the subsection of Christians who read the New Testament fully and absorb its teaching, will be more like the reaction of Buddhists, than of Muslims, who might have burned down their own cities in anger if their most historically impressive mosques were converted to another religion.

    -

    Have people here read New Testament? Not just selected quotes, but a whole text (it's possible to read the text as a whole, with non-numbered plain text).

    In early parts of the texts, Jesus begins preaching in synagogues (on Sea of Galilee - there are still ruins of those modest buildings), but after the beginning of his career, he preaches itinerantly outside in fields and other peoples' houses - all the time he is without any interest in buildings and insensitive to such things.

    Jesus is not only starting in modest buildings, but by the time he has followers, he does not use buildings at all. Obsession of grand buildings and ostentation, is very far from him.

    A one time someone could argue Jesus shows reverence to buildings is when he is Jerusalem, that he becomes angry about the buying and selling bazaar outside Herod's Temple in pesach. But he was angry about meaning of the selling and trading (probably scamming), and the quote "‘Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”" is a paraphrase https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11%3A15%E2%80%9319&version=NRSV of the old testament.

    Jesus is paraphrasing old testament and failure to follow its message, rather than proposing that the building itself is important.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+56

    As a youth, Jesus himself has first developed his religious ideas in those courts outside the temple at passover. So he had childhood love of this area, but it's sitting around in the courts outside (as he did years later, on his return to Jerusalem).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:41-Luke%202:48

    Jesus preaches equally everywhere, and one of his main teaching to followers is that "kingdom of god is within them"
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17%3A21&version=KJV

    -

    Arguments about future use of some opulent master work of engineering and architecture, by Justinian - are rather against the views of Jesus, and therefore spiritual message of the religion.

    On the other hand, Muhammad would find this interesting, as he was primarily a tribal warlord of the Arabian peninsula, and for people who identify with his tribe to capture opulent buildings belonging to other tribes - is a greater symbol of power, than to build such a building.

    Islam was a Arabian nomad's adaptation of Christianity/Judaism, and had originally valued things which were captured from other tribes, - which for nomadic cultures can be more valued than things which had been constructed by itself.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    And yet Jesus paid the highest compliment and deference to the great and Holy Temple in Jerusalem when he made a direct analogy comparing it to his own body, inferring that he would take its place within the New Jerusalem after His death and resurrection:

    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. … Jesus was prophetically speaking about His own death, burial and resurrection. The temple was a symbol of His body. He laid in the tomb for three days and then was resurrected.

  82. @Ano4
    @A123

    Thank you for your brilliant demonstration of the phenomenon of psychological transfer well known in psychiatry.

    Now go and take the medecine as prescribed.

    You'll feel much better afterwards.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @A123

    Wonderful to see your calm Zen/Chan principles in action 🙂

    And so interesting that what leads you to totally lose your Zen cool is defense of Islam… 🙂

    You good friends with Europa Europa buddy?

    So nice to see, umm, non-Abrahamic principles in action…

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Didn't lose anything, on the contrary I am having fun at bigots here.

    I find it utterly enjoyable to see you crazy hasbarists fume.

    😄

    Replies: @A123, @AaronB

  83. @Ano4
    @A123

    Thank you for your brilliant demonstration of the phenomenon of psychological transfer well known in psychiatry.

    Now go and take the medecine as prescribed.

    You'll feel much better afterwards.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @A123

    Why do you keep trying to transfer your broken Islamic psychology onto me?

    Everyone rational sees that your feeble efforts have no chance of working. I am a Christian, and my faith in God protects me from your Allah’s Evil.

    As you have nothing to offer other than Satanic gibbering. Please be quite and let the rational adults talk.

    PEACE 😇

  84. @Kent Nationalist

    Let me endeavor, very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. .... They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity.
     

    The barbarian power, which has been for centuries seated in the very heart of the Old World, which has in its brute clutch the most famous countries of classical and religious antiquity and many of the most fruitful and beautiful regions of the earth; and, which, having no history itself, is heir to the historical names of Constantinople and Nicaea, Nicomedia and Caesarea, Jerusalem and Damascus, Nineva and Babylon, Mecca and Bagdad, Antioch and Alexandria, ignorantly holding in its possession one half of the history of the whole world.

     

    Replies: @JamesMcFiddle

    Belloc?

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @JamesMcFiddle

    Good guess.

    The first is Gladstone, the second is Cardinal Newman

  85. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Wonderful to see your calm Zen/Chan principles in action :)

    And so interesting that what leads you to totally lose your Zen cool is defense of Islam... :)

    You good friends with Europa Europa buddy?

    So nice to see, umm, non-Abrahamic principles in action...

    Replies: @Ano4

    Didn’t lose anything, on the contrary I am having fun at bigots here.

    I find it utterly enjoyable to see you crazy hasbarists fume.

    😄

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    The more you post. The more you humiliate yourself.

    If you like everyone laughing at you, please continue. Comic relief is hard to come by.
    ____

    How does your pro-violence, stealing is good, Zen/4Chan work? Imposing "Zen by Force" is truly a new philosophy.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Didn’t lose anything
     
    Obviously you didn't lose anything, because you are no more a Zen/Buddhist guy than Talha is a Sufi :)

    I am having fun at bigots here.
     
    Yes, of course, it's bigotry that bothers you. Now lets hear some more anti-Jewish comments and angry attacks of people moderately criticizing the aggressive, intolerant aspects of Islam.

    You do a good job, ano2-4 :)

    Replies: @Ano4

  86. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Didn't lose anything, on the contrary I am having fun at bigots here.

    I find it utterly enjoyable to see you crazy hasbarists fume.

    😄

    Replies: @A123, @AaronB

    The more you post. The more you humiliate yourself.

    If you like everyone laughing at you, please continue. Comic relief is hard to come by.
    ____

    How does your pro-violence, stealing is good, Zen/4Chan work? Imposing “Zen by Force” is truly a new philosophy.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123

    Where have I tried imposing anything on anyone?

    And how violent is offering someone a well meaning medical advice?

    This is compassion: a fellow human has a profound personality disorder, writes incoherent violent diatribes, all the while pretending he is Christian while he is not.

    We need to help the poor fellow.

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

  87. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Didn't lose anything, on the contrary I am having fun at bigots here.

    I find it utterly enjoyable to see you crazy hasbarists fume.

    😄

    Replies: @A123, @AaronB

    Didn’t lose anything

    Obviously you didn’t lose anything, because you are no more a Zen/Buddhist guy than Talha is a Sufi 🙂

    I am having fun at bigots here.

    Yes, of course, it’s bigotry that bothers you. Now lets hear some more anti-Jewish comments and angry attacks of people moderately criticizing the aggressive, intolerant aspects of Islam.

    You do a good job, ano2-4 🙂

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB


    You do a good job, ano2-4 🙂
     
    So Daniel Chieh was right and you really conflate me and that other guy?

    You are effing nuts!

    Bwahahaha!

    ROFL!

    Although that means you do believe someone might well post under several different monikers.

    Perhaps are one and the same with Not Only Wrathful and A123?

    If that's the case then my antipsychotic medication advice is even more à propos.

    😁

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  88. @A123
    @Ano4

    The more you post. The more you humiliate yourself.

    If you like everyone laughing at you, please continue. Comic relief is hard to come by.
    ____

    How does your pro-violence, stealing is good, Zen/4Chan work? Imposing "Zen by Force" is truly a new philosophy.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    Where have I tried imposing anything on anyone?

    And how violent is offering someone a well meaning medical advice?

    This is compassion: a fellow human has a profound personality disorder, writes incoherent violent diatribes, all the while pretending he is Christian while he is not.

    We need to help the poor fellow.

    🙂

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    ROTFL

    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim. Not a practitioner of some obviously nonexistent, mythical, Christian/Zen-by-Force/4Chan belief system.

    All you need to do is take your own advice and get the help you need before you begin to harm yourself or others. Please seek psychiatric assistance for your destructive mental aberration.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123, @Ano4

  89. @JamesMcFiddle
    @Kent Nationalist

    Belloc?

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Good guess.

    The first is Gladstone, the second is Cardinal Newman

  90. @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Didn’t lose anything
     
    Obviously you didn't lose anything, because you are no more a Zen/Buddhist guy than Talha is a Sufi :)

    I am having fun at bigots here.
     
    Yes, of course, it's bigotry that bothers you. Now lets hear some more anti-Jewish comments and angry attacks of people moderately criticizing the aggressive, intolerant aspects of Islam.

    You do a good job, ano2-4 :)

    Replies: @Ano4

    You do a good job, ano2-4 🙂

    So Daniel Chieh was right and you really conflate me and that other guy?

    You are effing nuts!

    Bwahahaha!

    ROFL!

    Although that means you do believe someone might well post under several different monikers.

    Perhaps are one and the same with Not Only Wrathful and A123?

    If that’s the case then my antipsychotic medication advice is even more à propos.

    😁

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Ano4

    Watching him interpret you as a Polish supremacist is one of the more entertaining things on Unz.

    Replies: @Ano4

  91. @Ano4
    @AaronB


    You do a good job, ano2-4 🙂
     
    So Daniel Chieh was right and you really conflate me and that other guy?

    You are effing nuts!

    Bwahahaha!

    ROFL!

    Although that means you do believe someone might well post under several different monikers.

    Perhaps are one and the same with Not Only Wrathful and A123?

    If that's the case then my antipsychotic medication advice is even more à propos.

    😁

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Watching him interpret you as a Polish supremacist is one of the more entertaining things on Unz.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    What! Me, Polish supremacist?

    So for AaronB I am a 4Chan (probably because of Ch'an?) Zen Islamist Shia Polish supremacist.

    Just because I pointed out his Islamophobic hasbara...

    God help me, I just can't stop laughing.

    😂😂😂

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  92. That said, I suppose if one really wants to assign it cosmic significance, one may view it as God’s righteous punishment for reserve Turkish Army officer Bart’s pretensions to inter-Orthodox primacy and support of the heretical Ukrainian schismatics.

    Anybody knows whether retired captain of Turkish army Bart, who calls himself patriarch of non-existent Constantinople, said anything? One would think this concerns him more than anybody. Or is he too cowardly?

  93. @Daniel Chieh
    @Ano4

    Watching him interpret you as a Polish supremacist is one of the more entertaining things on Unz.

    Replies: @Ano4

    What! Me, Polish supremacist?

    So for AaronB I am a 4Chan (probably because of Ch’an?) Zen Islamist Shia Polish supremacist.

    Just because I pointed out his Islamophobic hasbara…

    God help me, I just can’t stop laughing.

    😂😂😂

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Ano4

    What, you mean you don't believe the below?

    "Russia has
    almost always stood for tyranny and lawlessness whereas Poland has for
    centuries been based on habeas corpus and the Roman law (not the British
    common law)."

    Poor formatting choices of Anon 2 preserved.

    Replies: @Ano4

  94. @Ano4
    @A123

    Where have I tried imposing anything on anyone?

    And how violent is offering someone a well meaning medical advice?

    This is compassion: a fellow human has a profound personality disorder, writes incoherent violent diatribes, all the while pretending he is Christian while he is not.

    We need to help the poor fellow.

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

    ROTFL

    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim. Not a practitioner of some obviously nonexistent, mythical, Christian/Zen-by-Force/4Chan belief system.

    All you need to do is take your own advice and get the help you need before you begin to harm yourself or others. Please seek psychiatric assistance for your destructive mental aberration.

    PEACE 😇

    • Troll: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @A123
    @A123


    • Troll: Daniel Chieh
     
    ROTFLMAO

    There is no better proof that I am right than the malevolent Troll Chieh trying to call me a troll.

    Troll Chieh, I appreciate your support for the TRUTH that I share. Please keep it coming.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Ano4
    @A123


    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim.
     
    So anyone disagreeing with Islamophobia becomes automatically a Muslim?

    That would add a lot to the current Muslim populations worldwide.

    For people like you this would probably not be such a desirable outcome to increase the number of Muslims.

    Just saying...

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

  95. A self admitted ignoramus, I was under the vague impression that Hagia Sophia had been a mosque for quite some time (perhaps even centuries), although I understood that since Ataturk, it was used as a cultural/tourist attraction.

    Surely, Sunni Islam has regained some vigour in Turkey, a country that now uses it to spread its influence abroad, but I think that it is not a united nation and that there are fault lines that may ultimately lead to either its division or its (re)taking an altogether different course.

    There are four major nations in Turkey, all of which could run states of their own and two of which have very recently ruled the whole lot or are doing so now; additionally, there are smaller nations and minorities that have a certain weight in the equation.

    Churches in the West are often turned into mosques, although some do end up as night clubs, zumba class halls or converted residences for the socially aspiring and innovative, so it comes as no surprise that a church that became a mosque that became a museum is turned back into a mosque in the present Sultan’s country and in his very city. Worship places change religion and purpose in accordance with the wishes of the powers that be; today’s elected rulers in the West don’t care much about Christianity and neither do most of their constituents, while the Muslim world is very much defined by religion.

    Constantinople first fell in 1204 and then in 1453; if there had been a power with enough will and strength to keep it or recover it throughout the centuries, it would have occurred already; Christendom hasn’t been united for many centuries now and hasn’t been a thing for a while either; it is true that the Turks slowly retreated from the rest of the Balkans but as Russia’s influence grew in the region, so did support for the Turks by other Western powers interested in not letting her dominate; First there were the British and French during Crimea, then the BBB era Germans and finally the NATO Americans.

    Gallipoli 1915 didn’t work out and no one even seemed to think of doing a simultaneous Russian landing on the northern straits, possibly because of lack of capabilities; Bosphorus in 1917 would probably not have worked out either; amphibious assaults are a tricky affair, it took the combined might of the US and the British Empire to achieve what they have in 43-44; this occurred with most of the Germans trying to resist the Red Army; now imagine assaulting the Ottoman capital from the sea with the means and conditions of the later WW1 Russia. Or perhaps it would have worked as these old empires turned out to be more fragile than thought and Constantinople could have been given to a larger Greece, become an Orthodox Christian Israel of sorts or else become a gigantic proto-Kaliningrad of the south.

    Interestingly, in the biopic “the Admiral”, Kolchak is said to have been descended from Turks but that’s just trivia.

    In the long run, it’s a vicious circle: more backward, more religion, more children, more supporters, more cohesion, keeping or taking cities and places of worship vs more enlightened, less religion, less children, less supporters, less cohesion… you can apply that to West vs East or to Kemalist vs Erdoganist Turks etc.

  96. @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    What! Me, Polish supremacist?

    So for AaronB I am a 4Chan (probably because of Ch'an?) Zen Islamist Shia Polish supremacist.

    Just because I pointed out his Islamophobic hasbara...

    God help me, I just can't stop laughing.

    😂😂😂

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    What, you mean you don’t believe the below?

    “Russia has
    almost always stood for tyranny and lawlessness whereas Poland has for
    centuries been based on habeas corpus and the Roman law (not the British
    common law).”

    Poor formatting choices of Anon 2 preserved.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am new on Unz Review and am not aware of Anon 2 comments.

    If this guy is Polish, then it is quite normal for him to be critical of anything Russian, this is a common feature of the Polish self-identification as the "Better Slavs" (instead of simply Westernized Slavs they are).

    But why would AaronB think that me (born and raised in Moscow) and this Anon-2 are the same person?

    AaronB, could you please explain?

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

  97. @A123
    @Ano4

    ROTFL

    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim. Not a practitioner of some obviously nonexistent, mythical, Christian/Zen-by-Force/4Chan belief system.

    All you need to do is take your own advice and get the help you need before you begin to harm yourself or others. Please seek psychiatric assistance for your destructive mental aberration.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123, @Ano4

    • Troll: Daniel Chieh

    ROTFLMAO

    There is no better proof that I am right than the malevolent Troll Chieh trying to call me a troll.

    Troll Chieh, I appreciate your support for the TRUTH that I share. Please keep it coming.

    PEACE 😇

    • Troll: Daniel Chieh
  98. @Daniel Chieh
    @Ano4

    What, you mean you don't believe the below?

    "Russia has
    almost always stood for tyranny and lawlessness whereas Poland has for
    centuries been based on habeas corpus and the Roman law (not the British
    common law)."

    Poor formatting choices of Anon 2 preserved.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I am new on Unz Review and am not aware of Anon 2 comments.

    If this guy is Polish, then it is quite normal for him to be critical of anything Russian, this is a common feature of the Polish self-identification as the “Better Slavs” (instead of simply Westernized Slavs they are).

    But why would AaronB think that me (born and raised in Moscow) and this Anon-2 are the same person?

    AaronB, could you please explain?

    🙂

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Well, I was actually enjoying the fact that you and Chieh seem so triggered by this nothingburger, but since you asked me nicely and politely I will tell you.

    You are both Eastern Europeans who claim to be inspired by Asian spiritually, are both anti-Jewish, and your handles differ by one number. I also find its much more common for Poles to be anti-Jewish these days than Russians, although there are many Poles who are friendly to Jews, so I don't want to slander an entire people.

    But I have no idea if you're the same person - its entirely possible I made a mistake. It seems very important to you to deny that you are ano2, however. So I'll give it to you - because I am, really, a generous guy.

    On this thread you have provided quite enough material on which to mock you and invalidate you on this handle alone, so we can proceed on that basis :)

    Carry on.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  99. @TomDickHarry
    @Kent Nationalist


    There’s a basic asymmetry because Christianity is true and Islam is both wrong and evil
     
    On the one hand, the following batshit polytheist abomination is "true"...

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one God, but (ah! that killer "but," the basis for the oxymoron known as Monotheistic Trinitarianism) three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine persons".
     
    ...which is basically plagiarised from the extremist pagan hindoo Trimurthi, about the dawn-age delusions of Triple Deities such as, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva. The following is another resource about this age-old polytheist plagiarisation...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

    --

    On the other hand, the following truest definition of Monotheism, is "wrong";


    Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent." : Holy Quran 112
     
    --

    Lol! Pagans!

    Replies: @Ano4, @Kent Nationalist, @anonymous coward

    Islam teaches that the Koran is uncreated (!) and co-eternal (!!) with Allah.

    Yes or no? One-word answer, please.

  100. @A123
    @Ano4

    ROTFL

    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim. Not a practitioner of some obviously nonexistent, mythical, Christian/Zen-by-Force/4Chan belief system.

    All you need to do is take your own advice and get the help you need before you begin to harm yourself or others. Please seek psychiatric assistance for your destructive mental aberration.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @A123, @Ano4

    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim.

    So anyone disagreeing with Islamophobia becomes automatically a Muslim?

    That would add a lot to the current Muslim populations worldwide.

    For people like you this would probably not be such a desirable outcome to increase the number of Muslims.

    Just saying…

    🙂

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    More humor.... Thanks !!!

    It is self-evident that there are 100% legitimate concerns about the Blood Cult of Muhammad. Core Jihadi beliefs include:

    -- Screaming "Allah is Greater than God" (Allah Ahkbar), then
    -- Murdering children because they believe in God

    Your Zen-by-Force/4Chan myth is not standing up to scrutiny. Only the most mentally damaged Blood Cultists try to lie about non-existent "Islamophobia".

    Just saying...

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

  101. @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am new on Unz Review and am not aware of Anon 2 comments.

    If this guy is Polish, then it is quite normal for him to be critical of anything Russian, this is a common feature of the Polish self-identification as the "Better Slavs" (instead of simply Westernized Slavs they are).

    But why would AaronB think that me (born and raised in Moscow) and this Anon-2 are the same person?

    AaronB, could you please explain?

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

    Well, I was actually enjoying the fact that you and Chieh seem so triggered by this nothingburger, but since you asked me nicely and politely I will tell you.

    You are both Eastern Europeans who claim to be inspired by Asian spiritually, are both anti-Jewish, and your handles differ by one number. I also find its much more common for Poles to be anti-Jewish these days than Russians, although there are many Poles who are friendly to Jews, so I don’t want to slander an entire people.

    But I have no idea if you’re the same person – its entirely possible I made a mistake. It seems very important to you to deny that you are ano2, however. So I’ll give it to you – because I am, really, a generous guy.

    On this thread you have provided quite enough material on which to mock you and invalidate you on this handle alone, so we can proceed on that basis 🙂

    Carry on.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AaronB

    Your sanity is genuinely worrisome; I've wondered about your accusations of Mr. Unz for schitzo prospects. Now, seeing your amazing leaps of pattern matching, I suspect that you may be projecting that as well.

    You really should get help.

    You certainly are in no position to provide insight.

  102. @Ano4
    @A123


    Indeed we are trying to help you admit that you are Muslim.
     
    So anyone disagreeing with Islamophobia becomes automatically a Muslim?

    That would add a lot to the current Muslim populations worldwide.

    For people like you this would probably not be such a desirable outcome to increase the number of Muslims.

    Just saying...

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

    More humor…. Thanks !!!

    It is self-evident that there are 100% legitimate concerns about the Blood Cult of Muhammad. Core Jihadi beliefs include:

    — Screaming “Allah is Greater than God” (Allah Ahkbar), then
    — Murdering children because they believe in God

    Your Zen-by-Force/4Chan myth is not standing up to scrutiny. Only the most mentally damaged Blood Cultists try to lie about non-existent “Islamophobia”.

    Just saying…

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123

    I see.

    And of course all Muslims are crazed blood thirsty maniacs?

    The whole 1 billion of them?

    The elderly, women and children included (that would make more than 50%)?

    🙂

  103. @A123
    @Ano4

    More humor.... Thanks !!!

    It is self-evident that there are 100% legitimate concerns about the Blood Cult of Muhammad. Core Jihadi beliefs include:

    -- Screaming "Allah is Greater than God" (Allah Ahkbar), then
    -- Murdering children because they believe in God

    Your Zen-by-Force/4Chan myth is not standing up to scrutiny. Only the most mentally damaged Blood Cultists try to lie about non-existent "Islamophobia".

    Just saying...

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    I see.

    And of course all Muslims are crazed blood thirsty maniacs?

    The whole 1 billion of them?

    The elderly, women and children included (that would make more than 50%)?

    🙂

  104. These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads…

    Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other? The objects of these disagreements are often tied to identity or religious beliefs; things acquired either at birth or during formative periods; what amount of reasoning or verbal conflict could change that?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Dicentim


    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads… Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other?
     
    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I'll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.

    The #1 goal is to inform and warn other site visitors so they are not ensnared by Satan/Allah. Willing submission to Satan damages the mind in addition to the soul. Mocking out the outrageous stupidity of the followers of the Anti-Christ Muhammad is primarily intended to make their lies less effective on the unwary.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Ano4
    @Dicentim


    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads
     


    This is not really a sectarian feud. These guys didn't like me calling their hasbara out about some tenets of Islamic theology. And of course, for them anyone knowledgeable in the slightest about Islam must be an Islamist. So they started a Judeo-Christian crusade against me, despite me clearly stating that their Semitic psycho drama did not interest me in the slightest given that I am not one of Abraham's descendants or their henchmen/fan club members.

    I suggested they keep their shit show in the family and sort it out among themself leaving the Infidel Goyim out of their Isaac vs Ishmael (or Sarah vs Hagar) conundrum. So they declared me a Jew hater. When I wrote about my religious convictions being a mix of Agnosticism and Ch'an/Zen they simply accused me of lying and being a Muslim who for whatever reason would post under an Agnostic Zen Buddhist disguise.

    And to make things even more ridiculous, for whatever reason of his own making, AaronB decided that I posted under two different monikers.

    Quite an adventure really, I have the impression of being in a David Lynch movie. Reading their comments felt a little like watching the dwarf dancing in Twin Peaks...

    😳
  105. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Well, I was actually enjoying the fact that you and Chieh seem so triggered by this nothingburger, but since you asked me nicely and politely I will tell you.

    You are both Eastern Europeans who claim to be inspired by Asian spiritually, are both anti-Jewish, and your handles differ by one number. I also find its much more common for Poles to be anti-Jewish these days than Russians, although there are many Poles who are friendly to Jews, so I don't want to slander an entire people.

    But I have no idea if you're the same person - its entirely possible I made a mistake. It seems very important to you to deny that you are ano2, however. So I'll give it to you - because I am, really, a generous guy.

    On this thread you have provided quite enough material on which to mock you and invalidate you on this handle alone, so we can proceed on that basis :)

    Carry on.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Your sanity is genuinely worrisome; I’ve wondered about your accusations of Mr. Unz for schitzo prospects. Now, seeing your amazing leaps of pattern matching, I suspect that you may be projecting that as well.

    You really should get help.

    You certainly are in no position to provide insight.

    • LOL: AaronB
  106. @Dicentim
    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads...

    Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other? The objects of these disagreements are often tied to identity or religious beliefs; things acquired either at birth or during formative periods; what amount of reasoning or verbal conflict could change that?

    Replies: @A123, @Ano4

    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads… Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other?

    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I’ll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.

    The #1 goal is to inform and warn other site visitors so they are not ensnared by Satan/Allah. Willing submission to Satan damages the mind in addition to the soul. Mocking out the outrageous stupidity of the followers of the Anti-Christ Muhammad is primarily intended to make their lies less effective on the unwary.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123


    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I’ll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.
     
    You can't be real...

    This is absolutely hilarious.

    😄

    Replies: @A123

  107. @A123
    @Dicentim


    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads… Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other?
     
    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I'll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.

    The #1 goal is to inform and warn other site visitors so they are not ensnared by Satan/Allah. Willing submission to Satan damages the mind in addition to the soul. Mocking out the outrageous stupidity of the followers of the Anti-Christ Muhammad is primarily intended to make their lies less effective on the unwary.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I’ll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.

    You can’t be real…

    This is absolutely hilarious.

    😄

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist.

    I and my faith in God are quite real. Your soul was destroyed when you submitted to the Evil of Allah. Without a soul, you cannot comprehend or accept that reality. It is very sad.

    I feel great pity for you.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

  108. Westerners complaining about Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque would have more credibility if they were equally concerned about the fate of churches in their own countries, sadly most aren’t.

    They seem to be more motivated by being anti-Muslim than pro-Christian, which isn’t really a particularly strong position. I’ve read there are churches in Britain that have been converted into Hindu temples, but I’ve never heard any complaints about that because I suppose it doesn’t fit the narrative.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Europe Europa

    Sophia cathedral is not a provincial building in England where Indian convenience store workers need a Hindu church, but somewhere with a lot of historical significance, and its conversion to a mosque was one of the important results of the invasion of Constantinople to Ottomans.

    Under secular nationalism in Turkey, the cathedral was unconverted in the 1930s, and has been a officially "museum".

    I'm no expert, but I imagine this re-conversion to mosque, is symbolic mostly within Turkish politics, as the secular nationalism is currently unfashionable there - or viewed just as an ideology of the elite Turks - , and there is currently Islamist populism that attracts the redneck lower classes of Turkey.

    -

    Whether Erdogan's Islamist populism is a temporary phase in Turkey, or something more long-lasting or multigenerational, can probably be answered simply - "perhaps no - if the Turkish economy grows to European per capita levels; perhaps yes - if the economy does not".

    Turkey is now still in a level where the majority of the population are not sufficiently middle class, for a Western European politics, and the majority of voters will have redneck views.


    -

    Economy in Turkey currently is at a per capita level of 1980s Spain. If Turkey's per capita economic level climbs to levels of 1990s Spain, probably we can expect will be more democratic/electoral success of bourgeois liberal views in Turkey and chance of the cathedral would be reconverted to a museum again.

    Probably if Turkey attains per capita income levels like Spain, there would be the elite secular "European" style of Turkish culture becoming mainstream in the country.

    https://i.imgur.com/ajrJF5X.jpg

    , @Hyperborean
    @Europe Europa


    Westerners complaining about Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque would have more credibility if they were equally concerned about the fate of churches in their own countries, sadly most aren’t.

    They seem to be more motivated by being anti-Muslim than pro-Christian, which isn’t really a particularly strong position. I’ve read there are churches in Britain that have been converted into Hindu temples, but I’ve never heard any complaints about that because I suppose it doesn’t fit the narrative.

     

    Even the liberals and leftists at Washington Post, Foreign Policy, The Economist, etc. are against this. It is hardly a narrative if Erdogan chooses to alienate every major faction.

    Erdogan has converted a lot of historical churches in his country with little outcry, there was no need for him to choose Hagia Sophia except to make a deliberate symbolic political move.

  109. @Ano4
    @A123


    Those who obtain personal joy from piles of dead infidel babies, such as Ano4 and Troll Chieh, have given their souls to Satan/Allah. I’ll offer the words of God and try help save them because it is my Christian duty to do so. However, I am not naive. The odds of salvaging creatures this debauched are quite slim.
     
    You can't be real...

    This is absolutely hilarious.

    😄

    Replies: @A123

    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist.

    I and my faith in God are quite real. Your soul was destroyed when you submitted to the Evil of Allah. Without a soul, you cannot comprehend or accept that reality. It is very sad.

    I feel great pity for you.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123


    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist
     
    So now I am a Satan worshiper on top of everything else?

    Your imagination knows no limits...

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

  110. @A123
    @Ano4

    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist.

    I and my faith in God are quite real. Your soul was destroyed when you submitted to the Evil of Allah. Without a soul, you cannot comprehend or accept that reality. It is very sad.

    I feel great pity for you.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist

    So now I am a Satan worshiper on top of everything else?

    Your imagination knows no limits…

    🙂

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ano4

    You are a TROLL in the service of Allah (a.k.a. Satan). I truly feel pity for you, but there is nothing I can do as you deny the will & the words of God.

    I add you to my blocked commenter list as you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

  111. @Ano4
    @A123


    Exactly the predicted response from a Satanist
     
    So now I am a Satan worshiper on top of everything else?

    Your imagination knows no limits...

    🙂

    Replies: @A123

    You are a TROLL in the service of Allah (a.k.a. Satan). I truly feel pity for you, but there is nothing I can do as you deny the will & the words of God.

    I add you to my blocked commenter list as you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @A123


    you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.
     
    So now you are the one who decides who is valuable for the human race and who's not?

    And you pretend being a Christian?

    😉

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  112. @Europe Europa
    Westerners complaining about Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque would have more credibility if they were equally concerned about the fate of churches in their own countries, sadly most aren't.

    They seem to be more motivated by being anti-Muslim than pro-Christian, which isn't really a particularly strong position. I've read there are churches in Britain that have been converted into Hindu temples, but I've never heard any complaints about that because I suppose it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Sophia cathedral is not a provincial building in England where Indian convenience store workers need a Hindu church, but somewhere with a lot of historical significance, and its conversion to a mosque was one of the important results of the invasion of Constantinople to Ottomans.

    Under secular nationalism in Turkey, the cathedral was unconverted in the 1930s, and has been a officially “museum”.

    I’m no expert, but I imagine this re-conversion to mosque, is symbolic mostly within Turkish politics, as the secular nationalism is currently unfashionable there – or viewed just as an ideology of the elite Turks – , and there is currently Islamist populism that attracts the redneck lower classes of Turkey.

    Whether Erdogan’s Islamist populism is a temporary phase in Turkey, or something more long-lasting or multigenerational, can probably be answered simply – “perhaps no – if the Turkish economy grows to European per capita levels; perhaps yes – if the economy does not”.

    Turkey is now still in a level where the majority of the population are not sufficiently middle class, for a Western European politics, and the majority of voters will have redneck views.

    Economy in Turkey currently is at a per capita level of 1980s Spain. If Turkey’s per capita economic level climbs to levels of 1990s Spain, probably we can expect will be more democratic/electoral success of bourgeois liberal views in Turkey and chance of the cathedral would be reconverted to a museum again.

    Probably if Turkey attains per capita income levels like Spain, there would be the elite secular “European” style of Turkish culture becoming mainstream in the country.

  113. @Europe Europa
    Westerners complaining about Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque would have more credibility if they were equally concerned about the fate of churches in their own countries, sadly most aren't.

    They seem to be more motivated by being anti-Muslim than pro-Christian, which isn't really a particularly strong position. I've read there are churches in Britain that have been converted into Hindu temples, but I've never heard any complaints about that because I suppose it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Westerners complaining about Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque would have more credibility if they were equally concerned about the fate of churches in their own countries, sadly most aren’t.

    They seem to be more motivated by being anti-Muslim than pro-Christian, which isn’t really a particularly strong position. I’ve read there are churches in Britain that have been converted into Hindu temples, but I’ve never heard any complaints about that because I suppose it doesn’t fit the narrative.

    Even the liberals and leftists at Washington Post, Foreign Policy, The Economist, etc. are against this. It is hardly a narrative if Erdogan chooses to alienate every major faction.

    Erdogan has converted a lot of historical churches in his country with little outcry, there was no need for him to choose Hagia Sophia except to make a deliberate symbolic political move.

    • Agree: AaronB
  114. @A123
    @Ano4

    You are a TROLL in the service of Allah (a.k.a. Satan). I truly feel pity for you, but there is nothing I can do as you deny the will & the words of God.

    I add you to my blocked commenter list as you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Ano4

    you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.

    So now you are the one who decides who is valuable for the human race and who’s not?

    And you pretend being a Christian?

    😉

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    And you pretend being a Christian?
     
    As Douglas Adams said, every religion would tell you that murder is sin. And every religion would kill you to prove its point.
  115. @Dicentim
    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads...

    Do you guys reasonably expect to convince each other? The objects of these disagreements are often tied to identity or religious beliefs; things acquired either at birth or during formative periods; what amount of reasoning or verbal conflict could change that?

    Replies: @A123, @Ano4

    These sectarian feuds that we get on these threads

    This is not really a sectarian feud. These guys didn’t like me calling their hasbara out about some tenets of Islamic theology. And of course, for them anyone knowledgeable in the slightest about Islam must be an Islamist. So they started a Judeo-Christian crusade against me, despite me clearly stating that their Semitic psycho drama did not interest me in the slightest given that I am not one of Abraham’s descendants or their henchmen/fan club members.

    I suggested they keep their shit show in the family and sort it out among themself leaving the Infidel Goyim out of their Isaac vs Ishmael (or Sarah vs Hagar) conundrum. So they declared me a Jew hater. When I wrote about my religious convictions being a mix of Agnosticism and Ch’an/Zen they simply accused me of lying and being a Muslim who for whatever reason would post under an Agnostic Zen Buddhist disguise.

    And to make things even more ridiculous, for whatever reason of his own making, AaronB decided that I posted under two different monikers.

    Quite an adventure really, I have the impression of being in a David Lynch movie. Reading their comments felt a little like watching the dwarf dancing in Twin Peaks…

    😳

  116. @songbird
    @Europe Europa

    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I've known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones. I don't think it has the importance or the psychological impact of Turkey, as these other Muslim states or statelets in Europe, Albania and Kosovo are really just offshoots of the original Turkish power, and the Turks were mainline civilizational antagonists and have formidable numbers compared to Albanians.

    Once the door is open to Turkey, it seems as there can be no closing it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Agathoklis

    The Muslims in Albania (and Kosovo) are mostly converted Slavs which primarily follow Sunni Islam and Bektashi Shiism. Saudi Arabia and Turkey have battled it out for the hearts and minds of the Sunnis but given 70 years of Communism and general apathy towards religion, many Albanian Muslims are only nominal Muslims. There are also small communities of Alevis.

    A lot of the north is Roman Catholic but Albanian in ethnicity and much of the south is Greek Orthodox. Most of that community is ethnically Greek with supposed autonomy but there are also ethnically Albanian Greek Orthodox scattered across the south and centre. The Greek Orthodox Church of Greece has made significant inroads by building schools and churches after 70 years of enforced atheism but the Albanian state does not adhere to its agreements and has allowed some Albanian nationalist to run wild.

    Religion in Albania (less so Kosovo) is definitely a mixed bag. Even the Muslim community is significantly divided. We should also note fertility rates are fast approaching European levels. Muslims powers have made an effort but long term it is unlikely Albanian Islam will represent a problem for Europe.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Agathoklis

    Albanians, particularly in Kosovo are genetically distinct from the Slavs
    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

    https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png

    Replies: @Ano4

  117. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Albania is kind of a mixed bag, since it is only about half Muslim and was communist for many decades. I’ve known several Albanian Christians but no Turkish ones.
     
    An Albanian boy I went to school with is the only self-declared Muslim I have met who has said eating pork is in accordance with Islam, despite this I think, if my memory serves me faithfully, he did observe Ramadan.

    Replies: @songbird

    I’ve haven’t eaten with Muslims in the U.S. frequently enough to judge their habits, but I have eaten with many Jews. Few of my Jewish acquaintances ever observed the prohibition against eating pork. Interestingly, those who did usually had a stereotypical Jewish phenotype – darker skin, etc.

    I would say that it doesn’t seem to be directly important to identity, on an individual level. Those who ate it all had what I’d consider a strong ethnic identity. But I guess it is important on the level of religion. Without a strong religious identity, there will be more intermarriage, and less children, even where there is marriage with coethnics.

    I’ve heard the regime in Albania was militantly atheistic, even by communist standards. It’d be interesting to know whether they had a policy of cultivating pork consumption, or whether such lapses were due to the area being on the fringe.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @songbird

    There are certain advantages of communist Albania having being so militantly atheist. Tens of thousands of Albanians migrated to Greece over the last 30 years. A significant proportion were like empty vessels. They had little concept of religion and even ethnicity. They simply spoke an Albanian dialect. Essentially, they were broken people with no real memory. This made it relatively easy for the various instruments of Hellenisation to work on these people. Anecdotally, I visited my cousin in Athens which I had not seen for a number of years and I noticed a young 8 year old boy playing around the house. I asked my cousin who was this kid. And she said he Panagioti. I spoke to the kid and his Greek was perfect for his age. I got to know him a little and he was very well-mannered. Later, my cousin told me Panagioti was originally from Albania but my cousin baptised him into the Orthodox faith on the request of his parents. At least superficially, this boy was completely Hellenised. He spoke Greek, was Orthodox and had a Greek name (they also Hellenised their last name). He only had a vague idea he originally came from Albania. His parent's rapid acceptance of Hellenic culture, because they had very few religious and ethnic markers before, really helped this process. Of course, certain Albanian nationalist organs have infiltrated some Albanians in Greece but a good proportion have become Greeks. This whole process is predicated on a Helleno-centric state and Church. Unfortunately, this is rapidly changing.

    Replies: @Wielgus

  118. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    I've haven't eaten with Muslims in the U.S. frequently enough to judge their habits, but I have eaten with many Jews. Few of my Jewish acquaintances ever observed the prohibition against eating pork. Interestingly, those who did usually had a stereotypical Jewish phenotype - darker skin, etc.

    I would say that it doesn't seem to be directly important to identity, on an individual level. Those who ate it all had what I'd consider a strong ethnic identity. But I guess it is important on the level of religion. Without a strong religious identity, there will be more intermarriage, and less children, even where there is marriage with coethnics.

    I've heard the regime in Albania was militantly atheistic, even by communist standards. It'd be interesting to know whether they had a policy of cultivating pork consumption, or whether such lapses were due to the area being on the fringe.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    There are certain advantages of communist Albania having being so militantly atheist. Tens of thousands of Albanians migrated to Greece over the last 30 years. A significant proportion were like empty vessels. They had little concept of religion and even ethnicity. They simply spoke an Albanian dialect. Essentially, they were broken people with no real memory. This made it relatively easy for the various instruments of Hellenisation to work on these people. Anecdotally, I visited my cousin in Athens which I had not seen for a number of years and I noticed a young 8 year old boy playing around the house. I asked my cousin who was this kid. And she said he Panagioti. I spoke to the kid and his Greek was perfect for his age. I got to know him a little and he was very well-mannered. Later, my cousin told me Panagioti was originally from Albania but my cousin baptised him into the Orthodox faith on the request of his parents. At least superficially, this boy was completely Hellenised. He spoke Greek, was Orthodox and had a Greek name (they also Hellenised their last name). He only had a vague idea he originally came from Albania. His parent’s rapid acceptance of Hellenic culture, because they had very few religious and ethnic markers before, really helped this process. Of course, certain Albanian nationalist organs have infiltrated some Albanians in Greece but a good proportion have become Greeks. This whole process is predicated on a Helleno-centric state and Church. Unfortunately, this is rapidly changing.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @Agathoklis

    There are a fair number of ethnic Greeks in Albania, mostly in the south. Although not one himself, Enver Hoxha had some grasp of the Greek language because in his home town of Gjirokaster about a third of the people were ethnic Greeks and it is likely Hoxha would have heard the language while growing up.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  119. @Mr. Hack
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    That's the ticket Brother, a modern day crusade directed this time from Moscow, where Turkey is nuked into Christian submission - are you for real???........

    Replies: @El Dato, @Svevlad

    If there’s anyone with a 100% accuracy of prediction, it’s the athonites.

    Some of them, the really high level ones who live like hermits in the crags, nobody sees them for years at a time, they know your name, age, what do you do etc and they just saw you for the first time in their life. Weird shit

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Svevlad

    I believe you, and have read accounts of Orthodox monks performing even levitation while in the state of prayer in a church, in front of holy icons. Why do you bring this up, however? You're not suggesting that Boswald Bollocksworth is an Athonite?

    Replies: @Svevlad

  120. AP says:
    @Ano4
    @Pericles

    Everyone steals something from someone else in this world of ours, except for those who use photosynthesis to grow. I don't think that Muslims belong to this photosynthetic category.

    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective Christianity and Islam are quite similar in their tendency to force themselves down the throats of the people that fall under their control. This is what Abrahamic religions do.

    Replies: @AP

    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.

    The world would have been so much better if none of these things happened. Can you imagine hiking or exploring the Algerian or Moroccan desert, the Afghan mountains with their giant Buddhas, without worrying about getting beheaded? A Christian Algeria or Morocco would have been a truly amazing place.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    I agree that much Antique culture has been lost due to Islamic conquest. But much culture has also been created and for a while the overall quality of living was higher in Muslim lands than in the Christian territories of the former Western Roman Empire.

    I have already commented elsewhere about the Islamic Oumma being in a state of increasing disfunction and decadence since the end of the XI century CE. Of course today I would much rather hike along the Santiago de Compostela path, instead of trying to walk the path to the place of birth of Saint Augustine in Thagaste. Although nearly a century ago Allister Crowley and his lover have hiked into the beginning of the Algerian desert to partake in an occult magick ceremony without being harassed by the locals.

    Today the West is the best, the question is for how much longer will it last given the current state of affairs and demographics. We might be the last generation benefiting from the riches of the West both economical and cultural. My feeling is we are entering an age of increasing disfunction similar to the last hundred years of the Latin Roman Empire. I would wish Russia to become the new Byzantium and keep more or less functional for some 500 yearslonger, but the chances are small for it to happen.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

  121. @Svevlad
    @Mr. Hack

    If there's anyone with a 100% accuracy of prediction, it's the athonites.

    Some of them, the really high level ones who live like hermits in the crags, nobody sees them for years at a time, they know your name, age, what do you do etc and they just saw you for the first time in their life. Weird shit

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I believe you, and have read accounts of Orthodox monks performing even levitation while in the state of prayer in a church, in front of holy icons. Why do you bring this up, however? You’re not suggesting that Boswald Bollocksworth is an Athonite?

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @Mr. Hack

    The prophecy is of Elder Paisios.

    The event, is actually WW3, and the Mideast theater get particularly shitty.

    He sees 200 million Chinese soldiers on the Euphrates, going towards Jerusalem, that's how extreme it gets.

    At that point, starvation sets in probably, and a mass migration starts... Towards Mesopotamia. This indicates Europe will either be unable... Or unwilling to take them.

    The entire mess is because Russia and Turkey will be on opposing sides when this war begins. Turkey has a very good performance in the beginning, but gets too cocky and overconfident. This causes a catastrophic loss and after that descends into a giant mess

    Here's a link to em but the translation seems shoddy tho.

    Basically SOMETHING happens, and Greater Greece is restored, but only because the lands in question become such messy shitholes nobody wants to do anything with them

    https://sites.google.com/site/thevoiceofthechristians/home/9-prophecies-elder-paisios-the-athonite

  122. @AP
    @Ano4


    Muslims imposed themselves on a largely Christianised North Africa and by the Almohad times drove the Maghrebian Christian community into extinction. Muslims imposed themselves upon the Zoroastrian Iran, the Buddhist and Manichaean Xinjiang and the Buddhist Afghanistan.
     
    The world would have been so much better if none of these things happened. Can you imagine hiking or exploring the Algerian or Moroccan desert, the Afghan mountains with their giant Buddhas, without worrying about getting beheaded? A Christian Algeria or Morocco would have been a truly amazing place.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I agree that much Antique culture has been lost due to Islamic conquest. But much culture has also been created and for a while the overall quality of living was higher in Muslim lands than in the Christian territories of the former Western Roman Empire.

    I have already commented elsewhere about the Islamic Oumma being in a state of increasing disfunction and decadence since the end of the XI century CE. Of course today I would much rather hike along the Santiago de Compostela path, instead of trying to walk the path to the place of birth of Saint Augustine in Thagaste. Although nearly a century ago Allister Crowley and his lover have hiked into the beginning of the Algerian desert to partake in an occult magick ceremony without being harassed by the locals.

    Today the West is the best, the question is for how much longer will it last given the current state of affairs and demographics. We might be the last generation benefiting from the riches of the West both economical and cultural. My feeling is we are entering an age of increasing disfunction similar to the last hundred years of the Latin Roman Empire. I would wish Russia to become the new Byzantium and keep more or less functional for some 500 yearslonger, but the chances are small for it to happen.

    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Ano4


    Allister Crowley
     
    Of course that's Aleister Crowley (a cellphone corrector is a terrible thing).

    https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    The Devil himself would have left Crowley and his lover alone to consummate their orgy of the black arts and magical occult that recoiled the likes of even Madame Blavatsky.

    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature? :-(

    Replies: @Ano4

  123. @Ano4
    @AP

    I agree that much Antique culture has been lost due to Islamic conquest. But much culture has also been created and for a while the overall quality of living was higher in Muslim lands than in the Christian territories of the former Western Roman Empire.

    I have already commented elsewhere about the Islamic Oumma being in a state of increasing disfunction and decadence since the end of the XI century CE. Of course today I would much rather hike along the Santiago de Compostela path, instead of trying to walk the path to the place of birth of Saint Augustine in Thagaste. Although nearly a century ago Allister Crowley and his lover have hiked into the beginning of the Algerian desert to partake in an occult magick ceremony without being harassed by the locals.

    Today the West is the best, the question is for how much longer will it last given the current state of affairs and demographics. We might be the last generation benefiting from the riches of the West both economical and cultural. My feeling is we are entering an age of increasing disfunction similar to the last hundred years of the Latin Roman Empire. I would wish Russia to become the new Byzantium and keep more or less functional for some 500 yearslonger, but the chances are small for it to happen.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    Allister Crowley

    Of course that’s Aleister Crowley (a cellphone corrector is a terrible thing).

    https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html

  124. @Priss Factor
    Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.

    In contrast, the churches in Ireland went globo-homo. They were turned into homosques.

    It seems the same fate awaits Poland. Young ones are all into globo-homo, pornification, and diversity, especially Afro-worship. Do Poles even realize that these are proxies of Jewish Power?

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/poland-right-andrzej-duda-pyrrhic-victory/

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion, but the problem with the Right is their creative laziness in relying on tradition. While religion and tradition must have their place, the future can only be secured by new vision and imagination. As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement. In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    That's what matters. There must be a place for religion, but the Right need and should not rely mainly on religion for its support.

    Replies: @another anon, @jbwilson24, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Jake

    “Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.”

    Yes, because it was of the west. To see filthy Turks defiling former Byzantine architecture is reason enough in itself to invade, never mind religion.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Wency
    @jbwilson24

    The people living in Turkey seem to owe roughly 80% of their DNA to the people who always lived in Turkey. In the Western portions in particular, they're more like Greeks than anything else. Their ancestors paid for and built Hagia Sophia, not your or my ancestors (if your heritage is Northern European).

    Replies: @Ano4

  125. @SIMP simp
    In "orthodox" Romania turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque was not big news. The patriarch issued a statement expressing the wish it will remain a museum, but the statement from the pope got more media coverage.
    The romanian church is still reeling after their failed attempt to stop compulsory sex ed in schools.
    The law that banned some transgender identity stuff was blocked by the president and will probably be struck down by the Constitutional Court.
    With a german president and a hungarian prime-minister is the first time in history when romanian leadership is not even nominally orthodox (except the communist period of course but Dej and Ceausescu had been born in orthodoxy and didn't do much to oppress the orthodox church compared with Russia) and the rising star of romanian politics, the USR party, is pretty woke and many of its supporters are the I-fucking-love-science type with accompanying aughts antitheism.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    The romanian church is still reeling after their failed attempt to stop compulsory sex ed in schools.
    The law that banned some transgender identity stuff was blocked by the president and will probably be struck down by the Constitutional Court.

    Eastern Europe is getting Pozzed real fast. Faster even than I expected.

  126. @Znzn
    If whites and Christians were willing to act like Muslims, or like Crusaders during the Crusades, the West would actually be in a lot better shape, has that thought not occured to anybody? You cannot have things both ways, and you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, regardless of collateral damage, has that thought also not occured to anybody?

    Replies: @Wency, @dfordoom

    If whites and Christians were willing to act like Muslims, or like Crusaders during the Crusades, the West would actually be in a lot better shape, has that thought not occured to anybody?

    The West still does act like that, but not for religious reasons. Western imperialism is alive and well. The West is still imposing its values on the entire planet. They’re just not Christian values. But the arrogance is still there.

  127. I agree, Hagia Sophia was lost way back then, bad on Orthodoxy for allowing it but now it is what it is, and with the balance of power as such it will not be held by Christendom ever again. No sense hating on Turks for beating us fair and square, and now it’s theirs and they are to do with it as they please. What they choose to do will reflect on them squarely, but still it is their choice to make and everyone else is to respect their sovereignty. I would rather they didn’t but in the end it will be a cosmetic change, they wont bash the mosaics or vandalize it like back when they took it.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Gorgeous George

    The sack weakened the Byzantine Empire, which allowed neighbouring groups such as the Sultanate of Rum, and later the Ottoman Turks, to gain influence (see the Byzantine–Ottoman Wars).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople

  128. @Mr. Hack
    @Svevlad

    I believe you, and have read accounts of Orthodox monks performing even levitation while in the state of prayer in a church, in front of holy icons. Why do you bring this up, however? You're not suggesting that Boswald Bollocksworth is an Athonite?

    Replies: @Svevlad

    The prophecy is of Elder Paisios.

    The event, is actually WW3, and the Mideast theater get particularly shitty.

    He sees 200 million Chinese soldiers on the Euphrates, going towards Jerusalem, that’s how extreme it gets.

    At that point, starvation sets in probably, and a mass migration starts… Towards Mesopotamia. This indicates Europe will either be unable… Or unwilling to take them.

    The entire mess is because Russia and Turkey will be on opposing sides when this war begins. Turkey has a very good performance in the beginning, but gets too cocky and overconfident. This causes a catastrophic loss and after that descends into a giant mess

    Here’s a link to em but the translation seems shoddy tho.

    Basically SOMETHING happens, and Greater Greece is restored, but only because the lands in question become such messy shitholes nobody wants to do anything with them

    https://sites.google.com/site/thevoiceofthechristians/home/9-prophecies-elder-paisios-the-athonite

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  129. @Gorgeous George
    I agree, Hagia Sophia was lost way back then, bad on Orthodoxy for allowing it but now it is what it is, and with the balance of power as such it will not be held by Christendom ever again. No sense hating on Turks for beating us fair and square, and now it's theirs and they are to do with it as they please. What they choose to do will reflect on them squarely, but still it is their choice to make and everyone else is to respect their sovereignty. I would rather they didn't but in the end it will be a cosmetic change, they wont bash the mosaics or vandalize it like back when they took it.

    Replies: @Ano4

    The sack weakened the Byzantine Empire, which allowed neighbouring groups such as the Sultanate of Rum, and later the Ottoman Turks, to gain influence (see the Byzantine–Ottoman Wars).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople

  130. Shows how pathetic and cucked the online right is that most of the reaction here amounts to “meh.” I hope you enjoy the world you’ve created, secularist swine.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  131. @Priss Factor
    Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.

    In contrast, the churches in Ireland went globo-homo. They were turned into homosques.

    It seems the same fate awaits Poland. Young ones are all into globo-homo, pornification, and diversity, especially Afro-worship. Do Poles even realize that these are proxies of Jewish Power?

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/poland-right-andrzej-duda-pyrrhic-victory/

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion, but the problem with the Right is their creative laziness in relying on tradition. While religion and tradition must have their place, the future can only be secured by new vision and imagination. As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement. In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    That's what matters. There must be a place for religion, but the Right need and should not rely mainly on religion for its support.

    Replies: @another anon, @jbwilson24, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Jake

    Easily one of the worst comments I’ve ever read on this site.

    As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement.

    This is one of the gayest things I’ve ever read.

    They don’t have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he’d order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.

    In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it’s by far the best way to win restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    The rest of your comment is a disgusting embarrassment to your European ancestors.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.
     
    Orthodox Cherubim Chant.



    Two different renditions. The first is a Northern Russian Old Believer Znamennyi rendition (I find it is somewhat closer to the Western European Latin Church Chants)

    https://youtu.be/B8NlDchzjpw

    https://youtu.be/dBc0pE4f50g

    The Znamennyi Chant can also be performed on a lesser scale by one or two performers. Here by Hierodeacon Herman of the Valaam Monastery and one of future novices:

    https://youtu.be/ppAT0f2YCyM
    , @Priss Factor
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    They don’t have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he’d order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.
     
    But white people today are such pussies that they can't produce another Andrew Jackson and run away even from tranny mobs. Look at Mike Pence. He claims to be a good Christian, but he cucks like a toad before the cast of HAMILTON and kowtowed to globo-homo in Indiana. Pence, so afraid of the Jews, relented to globo-homo demands because Jews demanded it. If whites are so strong in heart and mind, why were they so easily goaded along by Jews?

    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it’s by far the best way to win restless youth.
     
    No, you dammy. Restless youth in this day and age can't be expected to go for deep religion. They may come to that later, but the Culture War for the youth has to be about something exciting in the here-and-now.

    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.
     
    Don't think what appealed to you will appeal to most youths. Also, Catholic Church itself is a total joke these days, and the Orthodox Community isn't far behind. Over 50% of Orthodox folks are for 'gay marriage'. It's all a sad joke.
  132. @Not Only Wrathful
    The Blue Mosque smells so strongly of feet that it makes you gag. I really hope Hagia Sophia doesn't go the same way.

    Replies: @TomDickHarry, @Escher

    It’ll become “Gagia Sophia”.

  133. @Ano4
    @songbird


    Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings
     
    1) Visigothic, from West Gothic, not Visogothic
    2) In fact the older basilica that has been used to build the Mesquita was Roman
    3) At the start of the Cordoba Caliphate, Christians and Muslims shared the building
    4) The West Goths were Monophysite and were at odds with the local Trinitarian Christians (Orthodox Catholics, it was before the schism)
    5) The West Goths were a small military elite ruling upon the bulk Iberian population
    6) Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism was known for sadistic cruelty.
    7) Probably that is why the only Spanish word that is traced to the Goth language is verdugo = executioner.
    8) The Monophysite Arians and the king Ricardo Catholic followers were fighting a civil war.
    9) Muslims have been allied to the Monophysite side of the conflict.
    10) After the mayhem of the last years of the Visigotic rule, the Muslim conquerors have been greeted as liberators and peace makers by the Iberian Christians (both Monophysite and Catholics) and the very numerous Iberian Jews.

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    😉

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @German_reader

    I’m sensing that you would choose another “Dark Age” regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era. A new regime is often attractive at first. Of course, in time, as the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen, they became rather less benign.

    Jews ended up moving North. Though, I don’t know if I would use their movements, and what gates they might have opened to pick sides, in a moral sense, at least certainly not based on today. But if you are trying to make the Jewish case, I think it at least depends on the year. Maybe, they welcomed the Visigoths when they first came. Who knows?

    IMO, the Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished by the Moors while that of the Moors still exists to admire. You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage, but so we’re the Normans at first. In time, the Normans became faithful, mainstream Christians and led notable Crusades. As to the fact that the Visigoths lost Spain, there were many people unprepared for the Arab conquests. I suspect that Spain was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces, especially those used to fighting in arid conditions.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @songbird


    I’m sensing that you would choose another “Dark Age” regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era.
     
    At that time one would have been better off living in China. And even there the An Lushan Rebellion was a terrible affair.


    the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen
     
    The Andalus Caliphate was great for all its populations, but when it fell after a Berber uprising, the Chaos ensued. The Taifas period was very unstable and weakened the economy and defensive capacity of the Islamic Spain. After that Al Andalus went progressively downhill despite the Almoravid and the Almohad attempts at restoration of the former glory.

    Jews ended up moving North.
     
    They were quite privileged under the Caliphate, not so much afterwards. Still it took them time to side with the "Amalekite" Christians. Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues). They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.

    All in all, Al Andalus was more prosperous and better organized than its neighboring Christian kingdoms. But Spanish Muslims become soft and at the end fell pray to more aggressive Spanish Christians.

    Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished
     
    Some of their buildings survive in the North. They are quite simple but well built.

    You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage
     
    Not at all, I think West Goths were a great and noble Noble people. Their reign in modern day Ukraine brought prosperity, their reign in Italy under Theodoric the Great was a successful one. They were disunited in Spain and split along religious lines, that is why they got defeated.

    was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces,
     
    Islamic forces under Tariq Ibnu Zyiad were not so numerous and probably not very organized, but they received significant aid from Spanish Jews and Christians who were unhappy with the rule of the last Visigoth king. Muslims have done an intervention in a Civil War and seized the power when their side was victorious. Everywhere it spread Islam used internal weaknesses of its enemies to conquer them. Spain was no different.

    Replies: @AaronB

  134. @inertial
    Nakhimov's victory at Sinop led directly to Crimean War and Russia's humiliation. Had Kolchak succeded in 1917, the history would've repeated itself.

    England and France could not allow Russia to control the keys to the Mediterranean and Middle East. Germany would've gone along with them in hopes of getting revenge and recovering the WWI losses. Hence, Crimean War 2.0 would be all but inevitable. It would be like WWII, except in this reality Russia would have had even more enemies and no allies. It's not hard to imagine how this war would've ended.

    Replies: @mal, @Jon Halpenny

    England and France already promised Constantinople to Russia in the 1915 Constantinople Agreement.

  135. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Priss Factor

    Easily one of the worst comments I've ever read on this site.


    As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement.
     
    This is one of the gayest things I've ever read.

    They don't have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he'd order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.


    In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.
     
    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it's by far the best way to win restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?
     
    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    The rest of your comment is a disgusting embarrassment to your European ancestors.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Priss Factor

    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    Orthodox Cherubim Chant.

    [MORE]

    Two different renditions. The first is a Northern Russian Old Believer Znamennyi rendition (I find it is somewhat closer to the Western European Latin Church Chants)

    The Znamennyi Chant can also be performed on a lesser scale by one or two performers. Here by Hierodeacon Herman of the Valaam Monastery and one of future novices:

  136. @Excal
    This has been fully expected ever since Erdogan and his backers set about the long, slow task of undoing the work of Kemal Ataturk. Anybody who is surprised at this either doesn't know much about Turkey, or is play-acting.

    As Mr Karlin correctly points out, the building last changed owners in 1453. It was a mosque from then until 1935, when Ataturk made it a museum, which was not all that long ago. Considering that it is still the property of the Turkish government, I suppose they're fully entitled to turn it into a hockey stadium if they want.

    So I am puzzled by all the public moaning and hand-wringing over this. Even Pope Francis, normally so chummy with Muslims, remarked that it made him "sad".

    Here is my conspiracy theory: the moaners are really dog-whistling, and what they are saying is -- "Go for it, Reccy. The most we'll do is whinge. Enjoy your mosque."

    It's weak, but I don't have anything better at the moment.

    Replies: @Simplepseudonymichandle

    I think if you better understood it you’d know this is kind of like the Orthodox Christian Temple Mount and the mosque is like the Dome of the Rock. It’s really not a small matter although it would be a lot easier for Turkey’s Muslim’s to do the People of the Book a solid and retreat to the Blue Mosque, than for Muslims writ large to give up the Dome of the Rock.

    • Replies: @Excal
    @Simplepseudonymichandle

    I certainly do have some idea how painful this must be for Orthodox. But that pain began in 1453, when the Hagia Sophia ceased to be a church; I do not see why their pain over this would have begun only last week. (In fact it might be noted that Roman Catholics have been in pain over this building for far longer, but never mind.)

    Ataturk made it a museum, which is a little better than a mosque perhaps, but it is hardly a church. It was the property of the Turks then, and they could always have done with it what they liked; and so now they have. Does anyone seriously think that there has ever been the remotest chance that the Turks would have made it into a church again, while they still owned it? It would cause a civil war. They are just as likely to rename Istanbul back to Constantinople.

    There is something quite poetic, and tragic, about all this. Ataturk was part of the wave of enlightened republicanism which swept over the world in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. But no matter how beautiful and strong it may have looked then, republicanism was never strong enough to withstand the ages. It is at last crumbling away in Turkey, just as it now is in the rest of the world. Like everything human, it was always destined for the dust.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

  137. @Ano4
    @A123


    you have no value to this site, or indeed the human race.
     
    So now you are the one who decides who is valuable for the human race and who's not?

    And you pretend being a Christian?

    😉

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    And you pretend being a Christian?

    As Douglas Adams said, every religion would tell you that murder is sin. And every religion would kill you to prove its point.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  138. @Ano4
    @AP

    I agree that much Antique culture has been lost due to Islamic conquest. But much culture has also been created and for a while the overall quality of living was higher in Muslim lands than in the Christian territories of the former Western Roman Empire.

    I have already commented elsewhere about the Islamic Oumma being in a state of increasing disfunction and decadence since the end of the XI century CE. Of course today I would much rather hike along the Santiago de Compostela path, instead of trying to walk the path to the place of birth of Saint Augustine in Thagaste. Although nearly a century ago Allister Crowley and his lover have hiked into the beginning of the Algerian desert to partake in an occult magick ceremony without being harassed by the locals.

    Today the West is the best, the question is for how much longer will it last given the current state of affairs and demographics. We might be the last generation benefiting from the riches of the West both economical and cultural. My feeling is we are entering an age of increasing disfunction similar to the last hundred years of the Latin Roman Empire. I would wish Russia to become the new Byzantium and keep more or less functional for some 500 yearslonger, but the chances are small for it to happen.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    The Devil himself would have left Crowley and his lover alone to consummate their orgy of the black arts and magical occult that recoiled the likes of even Madame Blavatsky.

    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature? 🙁

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature?
     
    No Truth at all.



    Although Crowley certainly was an interesting figure. Many modern Western Occultists trace their lineage to his Thelema, including some practitioners of Chaos Magick.

    My interest in Crowley was mainly that he traveled to Himalaya (he was very adept at alpinism)
    where he studied Tantric Buddhism and Bön, which are both somewhat tangentially related to Dzogchen Buddhist tradition, the Tibetan branch of Cittamatra/Vijnanavada/Yogachara school of Mahayana.

    I also found it quite interesting that Crowley visited Moscow and Berlin in the mid-30-ies. I wonder if he was the inspiration behind the description of Woland in Bulgakov's Master and Margarita.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  139. @jbwilson24
    @Priss Factor

    "Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people."

    Yes, because it was of the west. To see filthy Turks defiling former Byzantine architecture is reason enough in itself to invade, never mind religion.

    Replies: @Wency

    The people living in Turkey seem to owe roughly 80% of their DNA to the people who always lived in Turkey. In the Western portions in particular, they’re more like Greeks than anything else. Their ancestors paid for and built Hagia Sophia, not your or my ancestors (if your heritage is Northern European).

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Wency

    You are right.
    Modern Turks are a Levantine/Mediterranean/Anatolian population.
    Those among them who trace their ancestry to Central Asia (let alone the Orkhon Valley) are an absolute minority.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  140. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    The Devil himself would have left Crowley and his lover alone to consummate their orgy of the black arts and magical occult that recoiled the likes of even Madame Blavatsky.

    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature? :-(

    Replies: @Ano4

    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature?

    No Truth at all.

    [MORE]

    Although Crowley certainly was an interesting figure. Many modern Western Occultists trace their lineage to his Thelema, including some practitioners of Chaos Magick.

    My interest in Crowley was mainly that he traveled to Himalaya (he was very adept at alpinism)
    where he studied Tantric Buddhism and Bön, which are both somewhat tangentially related to Dzogchen Buddhist tradition, the Tibetan branch of Cittamatra/Vijnanavada/Yogachara school of Mahayana.

    I also found it quite interesting that Crowley visited Moscow and Berlin in the mid-30-ies. I wonder if he was the inspiration behind the description of Woland in Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    No Truth at all.
     
    Another wrong turn?...Perhaps your parents had the right idea in the first place:

    (1 Cor 6:19).


    After a person is baptized and chrismated, all his sins are remitted, and he is illumined with the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to enable him to embark upon the life in Christ within the ark of the Holy Church. This is also the case for infants, who are also empowered to live a Christian life. The grace of baptism, especially if it is nurtured by strong faith and piety in the household, will operate invisibly in such little ones, and strengthen them so that when they acquire reasoning powers, they will choose the Christian way of life.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

  141. @Wency
    @jbwilson24

    The people living in Turkey seem to owe roughly 80% of their DNA to the people who always lived in Turkey. In the Western portions in particular, they're more like Greeks than anything else. Their ancestors paid for and built Hagia Sophia, not your or my ancestors (if your heritage is Northern European).

    Replies: @Ano4

    You are right.
    Modern Turks are a Levantine/Mediterranean/Anatolian population.
    Those among them who trace their ancestry to Central Asia (let alone the Orkhon Valley) are an absolute minority.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    So what? Culturally, most of those people (except Kurds, Alevis, Laz) have become Sunni Turks.

    Replies: @Ano4

  142. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    Curious as to what sort of Truth you may have discerned within this showpiece of homo-erotic literature?
     
    No Truth at all.



    Although Crowley certainly was an interesting figure. Many modern Western Occultists trace their lineage to his Thelema, including some practitioners of Chaos Magick.

    My interest in Crowley was mainly that he traveled to Himalaya (he was very adept at alpinism)
    where he studied Tantric Buddhism and Bön, which are both somewhat tangentially related to Dzogchen Buddhist tradition, the Tibetan branch of Cittamatra/Vijnanavada/Yogachara school of Mahayana.

    I also found it quite interesting that Crowley visited Moscow and Berlin in the mid-30-ies. I wonder if he was the inspiration behind the description of Woland in Bulgakov's Master and Margarita.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    No Truth at all.

    Another wrong turn?…Perhaps your parents had the right idea in the first place:

    (1 Cor 6:19).

    After a person is baptized and chrismated, all his sins are remitted, and he is illumined with the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to enable him to embark upon the life in Christ within the ark of the Holy Church. This is also the case for infants, who are also empowered to live a Christian life. The grace of baptism, especially if it is nurtured by strong faith and piety in the household, will operate invisibly in such little ones, and strengthen them so that when they acquire reasoning powers, they will choose the Christian way of life.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    Another wrong turn
     
    Curiosity mainly.

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  143. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    No Truth at all.
     
    Another wrong turn?...Perhaps your parents had the right idea in the first place:

    (1 Cor 6:19).


    After a person is baptized and chrismated, all his sins are remitted, and he is illumined with the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to enable him to embark upon the life in Christ within the ark of the Holy Church. This is also the case for infants, who are also empowered to live a Christian life. The grace of baptism, especially if it is nurtured by strong faith and piety in the household, will operate invisibly in such little ones, and strengthen them so that when they acquire reasoning powers, they will choose the Christian way of life.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    Another wrong turn

    Curiosity mainly.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Adam and Eve were curious too, and thought that they'd gain great "wisdom" and be as knowing as God himself, and we see where that got them.....

    Replies: @Ano4

  144. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    Another wrong turn
     
    Curiosity mainly.

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Adam and Eve were curious too, and thought that they’d gain great “wisdom” and be as knowing as God himself, and we see where that got them…..

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    It got us here commenting on Unz Review.

    😄

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  145. @songbird
    @Ano4

    I'm sensing that you would choose another "Dark Age" regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era. A new regime is often attractive at first. Of course, in time, as the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen, they became rather less benign.

    Jews ended up moving North. Though, I don't know if I would use their movements, and what gates they might have opened to pick sides, in a moral sense, at least certainly not based on today. But if you are trying to make the Jewish case, I think it at least depends on the year. Maybe, they welcomed the Visigoths when they first came. Who knows?

    IMO, the Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished by the Moors while that of the Moors still exists to admire. You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage, but so we're the Normans at first. In time, the Normans became faithful, mainstream Christians and led notable Crusades. As to the fact that the Visigoths lost Spain, there were many people unprepared for the Arab conquests. I suspect that Spain was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces, especially those used to fighting in arid conditions.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I’m sensing that you would choose another “Dark Age” regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era.

    At that time one would have been better off living in China. And even there the An Lushan Rebellion was a terrible affair.

    [MORE]

    the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen

    The Andalus Caliphate was great for all its populations, but when it fell after a Berber uprising, the Chaos ensued. The Taifas period was very unstable and weakened the economy and defensive capacity of the Islamic Spain. After that Al Andalus went progressively downhill despite the Almoravid and the Almohad attempts at restoration of the former glory.

    Jews ended up moving North.

    They were quite privileged under the Caliphate, not so much afterwards. Still it took them time to side with the “Amalekite” Christians. Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues). They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.

    All in all, Al Andalus was more prosperous and better organized than its neighboring Christian kingdoms. But Spanish Muslims become soft and at the end fell pray to more aggressive Spanish Christians.

    Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished

    Some of their buildings survive in the North. They are quite simple but well built.

    You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage

    Not at all, I think West Goths were a great and noble Noble people. Their reign in modern day Ukraine brought prosperity, their reign in Italy under Theodoric the Great was a successful one. They were disunited in Spain and split along religious lines, that is why they got defeated.

    was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces,

    Islamic forces under Tariq Ibnu Zyiad were not so numerous and probably not very organized, but they received significant aid from Spanish Jews and Christians who were unhappy with the rule of the last Visigoth king. Muslims have done an intervention in a Civil War and seized the power when their side was victorious. Everywhere it spread Islam used internal weaknesses of its enemies to conquer them. Spain was no different.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues).
     
    That was almost a thousand years ago. Times and conditions change. I don't think any Jewish religious authority would rule that today.

    In the early years of Christianity Jews considered them idolators. By the Middle Ages, that changed.

    They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.
     
    Also, this kind of stuff started happening with increasing frequency.

    Things change.

    Replies: @Ano4

  146. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Adam and Eve were curious too, and thought that they'd gain great "wisdom" and be as knowing as God himself, and we see where that got them.....

    Replies: @Ano4

    It got us here commenting on Unz Review.

    😄

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I'd be content not to communicate with you at all, and know that you've been saved.

    Replies: @Ano4

  147. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    It got us here commenting on Unz Review.

    😄

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’d be content not to communicate with you at all, and know that you’ve been saved.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    you’ve been saved
     
    Despite my Agnosticism, my ultimate belief is that Reality leads everyone towards salvation.



    The paths are many, but the ultimate destination is the same for all

    In Zen we have trust in the Absolute Reality, which is the true Reality of Everything, us included. It is what other people would call God, but we prefer not calling it anything and avoiding talking about it.

    Therefore, we have an absolute trust in God's saving grace even if never talk about God.

    Valentine the Gnostic said: " Sun shines upon both good and evil and rain pours equally upon both ".

    Origene said that at the end even the demons will be saved and Satan brought to Salvation.

    Mahayana Boddhisattvas work to save everyone in this entire Universe, evil spirits and demons included. Even Mara (Satan in Buddhism) will attain final and total Liberation.

    Everyone will get there in due time.

    As the Muslim saying goes: God guides (to the Right Path) whomever He pleases.

    I agree with this take on the Salvation.

    Omar Khayiam, famous for his apparent Agnosticism, wrote in one of his Rubayiates : "after this world there is either mercy or nothingness ".

    I am okay with both.

    Whatever is - is God's will, and therefore is right with me.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  148. @Ano4
    @songbird


    I’m sensing that you would choose another “Dark Age” regime to live under, someone other than the Visigoths, if you were stuck in that era.
     
    At that time one would have been better off living in China. And even there the An Lushan Rebellion was a terrible affair.


    the Moors cemented their powerbase and got rid of the turncoat middlemen
     
    The Andalus Caliphate was great for all its populations, but when it fell after a Berber uprising, the Chaos ensued. The Taifas period was very unstable and weakened the economy and defensive capacity of the Islamic Spain. After that Al Andalus went progressively downhill despite the Almoravid and the Almohad attempts at restoration of the former glory.

    Jews ended up moving North.
     
    They were quite privileged under the Caliphate, not so much afterwards. Still it took them time to side with the "Amalekite" Christians. Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues). They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.

    All in all, Al Andalus was more prosperous and better organized than its neighboring Christian kingdoms. But Spanish Muslims become soft and at the end fell pray to more aggressive Spanish Christians.

    Visigoths are unfairly maligned since their architectural legacy was demolished
     
    Some of their buildings survive in the North. They are quite simple but well built.

    You seem to say the Visigoths were quite savage
     
    Not at all, I think West Goths were a great and noble Noble people. Their reign in modern day Ukraine brought prosperity, their reign in Italy under Theodoric the Great was a successful one. They were disunited in Spain and split along religious lines, that is why they got defeated.

    was relatively easy to invade in ancient times, for large, organized forces,
     
    Islamic forces under Tariq Ibnu Zyiad were not so numerous and probably not very organized, but they received significant aid from Spanish Jews and Christians who were unhappy with the rule of the last Visigoth king. Muslims have done an intervention in a Civil War and seized the power when their side was victorious. Everywhere it spread Islam used internal weaknesses of its enemies to conquer them. Spain was no different.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues).

    That was almost a thousand years ago. Times and conditions change. I don’t think any Jewish religious authority would rule that today.

    In the early years of Christianity Jews considered them idolators. By the Middle Ages, that changed.

    They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.

    Also, this kind of stuff started happening with increasing frequency.

    Things change.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    The Almohad conversion attempt was an isolated incident. As soon as the Almohad dynasty fell, the Jews of Andalus and Maghrib reverted to the faith of their ancestors (while Maghrib Christian community never recovered).



    What really put a wedge between Muslims and Jews was that Muslims sided with the Karaite reformers against the Rabbinical Talmudism.

    That was of course the right thing to do, since the Karaim only rely on the Torah and disregard the Talmud, while Muslims also recognize the Torah as a Holy Book, but completely negate the validity of Talmudic wisdom.

    The Karaim movement started in Baghdad under the leadership of the Reish Galutha of the time. He received full support from the Caliphate, he claimed descent from King David and so the numbers of the Karaim swell rapidly.

    Seeing this, the Talmudic Rabbis freaked out and did their possible to put their flocks outside the Karaite movement reach. The best thing to do that would be of course to simply put Jews under the Christian control, as under Christian control the Karaim received no preferential treatment.

    That is why in Islamic Spain and every where else the Rabbis of the time stopped siding with the Muslims at that very period. Add to that the Mongol invasion, the dilapidated state of affairs of the whole Islamic Oumma and you get the idea why the Jews, who were privileged compared to Christians under Islamic rule, decided that it was time to bet on a new horse.

    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner and they will again be a happy family ganging up against the weakened Christians.

    As we both know, nothing lasts forever (except God Almighty, but he transcends both Space and Time)...

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

  149. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I'd be content not to communicate with you at all, and know that you've been saved.

    Replies: @Ano4

    you’ve been saved

    Despite my Agnosticism, my ultimate belief is that Reality leads everyone towards salvation.

    [MORE]

    The paths are many, but the ultimate destination is the same for all

    In Zen we have trust in the Absolute Reality, which is the true Reality of Everything, us included. It is what other people would call God, but we prefer not calling it anything and avoiding talking about it.

    Therefore, we have an absolute trust in God’s saving grace even if never talk about God.

    Valentine the Gnostic said: ” Sun shines upon both good and evil and rain pours equally upon both “.

    Origene said that at the end even the demons will be saved and Satan brought to Salvation.

    Mahayana Boddhisattvas work to save everyone in this entire Universe, evil spirits and demons included. Even Mara (Satan in Buddhism) will attain final and total Liberation.

    Everyone will get there in due time.

    As the Muslim saying goes: God guides (to the Right Path) whomever He pleases.

    I agree with this take on the Salvation.

    Omar Khayiam, famous for his apparent Agnosticism, wrote in one of his Rubayiates : “after this world there is either mercy or nothingness “.

    I am okay with both.

    Whatever is – is God’s will, and therefore is right with me.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Proverbs 14:12 (HNV) There is a way which seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.

    You may continue pursuing your path to death or complete emptiness, but I shall continue along the path of Theosis, where "God became man so that man could become god" I pray that there is still time for you to change your ways, so that you too may enjoy life eternal.

  150. @Agathoklis
    @songbird

    There are certain advantages of communist Albania having being so militantly atheist. Tens of thousands of Albanians migrated to Greece over the last 30 years. A significant proportion were like empty vessels. They had little concept of religion and even ethnicity. They simply spoke an Albanian dialect. Essentially, they were broken people with no real memory. This made it relatively easy for the various instruments of Hellenisation to work on these people. Anecdotally, I visited my cousin in Athens which I had not seen for a number of years and I noticed a young 8 year old boy playing around the house. I asked my cousin who was this kid. And she said he Panagioti. I spoke to the kid and his Greek was perfect for his age. I got to know him a little and he was very well-mannered. Later, my cousin told me Panagioti was originally from Albania but my cousin baptised him into the Orthodox faith on the request of his parents. At least superficially, this boy was completely Hellenised. He spoke Greek, was Orthodox and had a Greek name (they also Hellenised their last name). He only had a vague idea he originally came from Albania. His parent's rapid acceptance of Hellenic culture, because they had very few religious and ethnic markers before, really helped this process. Of course, certain Albanian nationalist organs have infiltrated some Albanians in Greece but a good proportion have become Greeks. This whole process is predicated on a Helleno-centric state and Church. Unfortunately, this is rapidly changing.

    Replies: @Wielgus

    There are a fair number of ethnic Greeks in Albania, mostly in the south. Although not one himself, Enver Hoxha had some grasp of the Greek language because in his home town of Gjirokaster about a third of the people were ethnic Greeks and it is likely Hoxha would have heard the language while growing up.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Wielgus

    Yes, I know. Those ethnic Greeks are still there but occasionally hassled by the Albanian para-state sometimes murdered by thugs.

  151. @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Moshe Ben Maimun (Maimonides) wrote in the XII century that when there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians, a Jew must always side up with Muslims if left a choice, because Muslims for all their errors are true Monotheists and are not Idolaters, while Trinitarian Christians are polytheistic idolaters (using icons and statues).
     
    That was almost a thousand years ago. Times and conditions change. I don't think any Jewish religious authority would rule that today.

    In the early years of Christianity Jews considered them idolators. By the Middle Ages, that changed.

    They basically only switched sides after the Almohad attempted a forced conversion of the Sephardic Jews.
     
    Also, this kind of stuff started happening with increasing frequency.

    Things change.

    Replies: @Ano4

    The Almohad conversion attempt was an isolated incident. As soon as the Almohad dynasty fell, the Jews of Andalus and Maghrib reverted to the faith of their ancestors (while Maghrib Christian community never recovered).

    [MORE]

    What really put a wedge between Muslims and Jews was that Muslims sided with the Karaite reformers against the Rabbinical Talmudism.

    That was of course the right thing to do, since the Karaim only rely on the Torah and disregard the Talmud, while Muslims also recognize the Torah as a Holy Book, but completely negate the validity of Talmudic wisdom.

    The Karaim movement started in Baghdad under the leadership of the Reish Galutha of the time. He received full support from the Caliphate, he claimed descent from King David and so the numbers of the Karaim swell rapidly.

    Seeing this, the Talmudic Rabbis freaked out and did their possible to put their flocks outside the Karaite movement reach. The best thing to do that would be of course to simply put Jews under the Christian control, as under Christian control the Karaim received no preferential treatment.

    That is why in Islamic Spain and every where else the Rabbis of the time stopped siding with the Muslims at that very period. Add to that the Mongol invasion, the dilapidated state of affairs of the whole Islamic Oumma and you get the idea why the Jews, who were privileged compared to Christians under Islamic rule, decided that it was time to bet on a new horse.

    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner and they will again be a happy family ganging up against the weakened Christians.

    As we both know, nothing lasts forever (except God Almighty, but he transcends both Space and Time)…

    🙂

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner
     
    There are signs that Muslims are beginning to accept Israel and even have positive attitudes towards it. Israeli Muslims are volunteering to the IDF at ever increasing numbers.

    The Islamist extremists on this site do not represent all of Islam. There is a good side to Islam which I think will increasingly come to be developed, even as the Islamic world in general wanes in influence. Perhaps the two must go hand in hand - the aggressive side of Islam must wane before its Sufi side may come to the fore.

    ganging up against the weakened Christians.
     
    This I don't see happening, frankly. I am friends with many Orthodox Jews. I sometimes discuss Christians - I have heard only positive things from them on Christians. The general attitude is that they are good and moral people who are serving God in a way that may be appropriate for them. Today at least, the attitude towards Christians is much more positive than towards Muslims, but even towards Muslims the attitude is nuanced and not entirely hostile.

    Of course if Christians started persecuting Jews again that would change - but that chapter of history seems to be over.

    Replies: @Ano4

  152. @Agathoklis
    @songbird

    The Muslims in Albania (and Kosovo) are mostly converted Slavs which primarily follow Sunni Islam and Bektashi Shiism. Saudi Arabia and Turkey have battled it out for the hearts and minds of the Sunnis but given 70 years of Communism and general apathy towards religion, many Albanian Muslims are only nominal Muslims. There are also small communities of Alevis.

    A lot of the north is Roman Catholic but Albanian in ethnicity and much of the south is Greek Orthodox. Most of that community is ethnically Greek with supposed autonomy but there are also ethnically Albanian Greek Orthodox scattered across the south and centre. The Greek Orthodox Church of Greece has made significant inroads by building schools and churches after 70 years of enforced atheism but the Albanian state does not adhere to its agreements and has allowed some Albanian nationalist to run wild.

    Religion in Albania (less so Kosovo) is definitely a mixed bag. Even the Muslim community is significantly divided. We should also note fertility rates are fast approaching European levels. Muslims powers have made an effort but long term it is unlikely Albanian Islam will represent a problem for Europe.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Albanians, particularly in Kosovo are genetically distinct from the Slavs

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Korenchkin

    They are closer to Greeks. A lot of Y haplogroup E going all the way back to Neolithic Mediterranean populations who inhabited the Balkans and Peloponnese prior to Achaean migrations.

    They are the real natives of that area.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  153. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    you’ve been saved
     
    Despite my Agnosticism, my ultimate belief is that Reality leads everyone towards salvation.



    The paths are many, but the ultimate destination is the same for all

    In Zen we have trust in the Absolute Reality, which is the true Reality of Everything, us included. It is what other people would call God, but we prefer not calling it anything and avoiding talking about it.

    Therefore, we have an absolute trust in God's saving grace even if never talk about God.

    Valentine the Gnostic said: " Sun shines upon both good and evil and rain pours equally upon both ".

    Origene said that at the end even the demons will be saved and Satan brought to Salvation.

    Mahayana Boddhisattvas work to save everyone in this entire Universe, evil spirits and demons included. Even Mara (Satan in Buddhism) will attain final and total Liberation.

    Everyone will get there in due time.

    As the Muslim saying goes: God guides (to the Right Path) whomever He pleases.

    I agree with this take on the Salvation.

    Omar Khayiam, famous for his apparent Agnosticism, wrote in one of his Rubayiates : "after this world there is either mercy or nothingness ".

    I am okay with both.

    Whatever is - is God's will, and therefore is right with me.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Proverbs 14:12 (HNV) There is a way which seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.

    You may continue pursuing your path to death or complete emptiness, but I shall continue along the path of Theosis, where “God became man so that man could become god” I pray that there is still time for you to change your ways, so that you too may enjoy life eternal.

    • Thanks: Ano4
  154. @Korenchkin
    @Agathoklis

    Albanians, particularly in Kosovo are genetically distinct from the Slavs
    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

    https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png

    Replies: @Ano4

    They are closer to Greeks. A lot of Y haplogroup E going all the way back to Neolithic Mediterranean populations who inhabited the Balkans and Peloponnese prior to Achaean migrations.

    They are the real natives of that area.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Ano4

    Huh
    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4

  155. @Ano4
    @Korenchkin

    They are closer to Greeks. A lot of Y haplogroup E going all the way back to Neolithic Mediterranean populations who inhabited the Balkans and Peloponnese prior to Achaean migrations.

    They are the real natives of that area.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Huh

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Korenchkin

    https://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-the-observed-haplogroup-E-V13-frequencies-Cruciani-et-al-2007_fig2_255661452

    Haplogroups in the modern Albanian population is dominated by E-V13. On the European continent it has the highest concentration in Kosovo (over 45%).

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    🙂

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  156. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    The Almohad conversion attempt was an isolated incident. As soon as the Almohad dynasty fell, the Jews of Andalus and Maghrib reverted to the faith of their ancestors (while Maghrib Christian community never recovered).



    What really put a wedge between Muslims and Jews was that Muslims sided with the Karaite reformers against the Rabbinical Talmudism.

    That was of course the right thing to do, since the Karaim only rely on the Torah and disregard the Talmud, while Muslims also recognize the Torah as a Holy Book, but completely negate the validity of Talmudic wisdom.

    The Karaim movement started in Baghdad under the leadership of the Reish Galutha of the time. He received full support from the Caliphate, he claimed descent from King David and so the numbers of the Karaim swell rapidly.

    Seeing this, the Talmudic Rabbis freaked out and did their possible to put their flocks outside the Karaite movement reach. The best thing to do that would be of course to simply put Jews under the Christian control, as under Christian control the Karaim received no preferential treatment.

    That is why in Islamic Spain and every where else the Rabbis of the time stopped siding with the Muslims at that very period. Add to that the Mongol invasion, the dilapidated state of affairs of the whole Islamic Oumma and you get the idea why the Jews, who were privileged compared to Christians under Islamic rule, decided that it was time to bet on a new horse.

    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner and they will again be a happy family ganging up against the weakened Christians.

    As we both know, nothing lasts forever (except God Almighty, but he transcends both Space and Time)...

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner

    There are signs that Muslims are beginning to accept Israel and even have positive attitudes towards it. Israeli Muslims are volunteering to the IDF at ever increasing numbers.

    The Islamist extremists on this site do not represent all of Islam. There is a good side to Islam which I think will increasingly come to be developed, even as the Islamic world in general wanes in influence. Perhaps the two must go hand in hand – the aggressive side of Islam must wane before its Sufi side may come to the fore.

    ganging up against the weakened Christians.

    This I don’t see happening, frankly. I am friends with many Orthodox Jews. I sometimes discuss Christians – I have heard only positive things from them on Christians. The general attitude is that they are good and moral people who are serving God in a way that may be appropriate for them. Today at least, the attitude towards Christians is much more positive than towards Muslims, but even towards Muslims the attitude is nuanced and not entirely hostile.

    Of course if Christians started persecuting Jews again that would change – but that chapter of history seems to be over.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Jews are pragmatic opportunists, as soon as they will understand that cooperating with their Ishmaelite cousins is in their best interest they will switch sides again.

    Demographics is destiny.

    The demographic change that will come in the next generation is tremendous. Subsaharan Blacks will be way too numerous for their economically backwater countries. They will be outpouring on the MENA territory, Israel included. This is already happening.

    On the South shore of the Mediterranean, in the Maghrib by 2050 the population would reach 100 million people, these Arabo-Berber Muslims will live less than two hours by plane from their 30 million cousins in Western Europe. By that time, the Western Europeans will be way older with way less children and completely demoralized. The Globalised Elites will be blamed for the degeneration that is eating up the West and the Jews will be pointed as responsible for the destruction of Europe. This too is already happening.

    When tens of millions of Blacks will start to migrate towards the North, MENA people both Muslim and Jewish will cooperate to block this mass migration.

    When Western Europe becomes completely demoralized and disfunctional, Muslims and Jews will cooperate to ensure their comfort is not affected by the overall morass.

    Moreover, the Jewish-Muslim cooperation will also bring both shores of the Mediterranean closer. The Mediterranean will again be seen as Mare Nostrum to be protected at all costs against the Negroid tidal wave.

    Christian faith, especially Catholic Church will be in its terminal state of decay in the West. A new religious consensus will be needed. Jews, Muslims and the remaining Christians will create this consensus with Jews bringing brains, Muslims bringing violence and the Christians bringing everything else.

    By the end of 2050-ies an Abrahamic confederation, dominated by the sons of Isaac and Ishmael will rule the Mediterranean area and continental Western Europe.

    Jews will keep their privileged status, Muslims will climb a few social levels, and the former Christians will lose privileged status. This is also already happening.

    Also, see Kalachakra Tantra for the following events up to year 2400.

    Replies: @AaronB

  157. @Korenchkin
    @Ano4

    Huh
    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4

    https://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-the-observed-haplogroup-E-V13-frequencies-Cruciani-et-al-2007_fig2_255661452

    Haplogroups in the modern Albanian population is dominated by E-V13. On the European continent it has the highest concentration in Kosovo (over 45%).

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    🙂

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Ano4

    That does not make them the natives of the area, there is also the absence of Albanian toponyms and a lack of even medieval structures
    They aren't even mentioned until like, what, the 10th Century?

    Replies: @Ano4

  158. German_reader says:
    @Ano4
    @songbird


    Visogothic church and other Visogothic buildings
     
    1) Visigothic, from West Gothic, not Visogothic
    2) In fact the older basilica that has been used to build the Mesquita was Roman
    3) At the start of the Cordoba Caliphate, Christians and Muslims shared the building
    4) The West Goths were Monophysite and were at odds with the local Trinitarian Christians (Orthodox Catholics, it was before the schism)
    5) The West Goths were a small military elite ruling upon the bulk Iberian population
    6) Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism was known for sadistic cruelty.
    7) Probably that is why the only Spanish word that is traced to the Goth language is verdugo = executioner.
    8) The Monophysite Arians and the king Ricardo Catholic followers were fighting a civil war.
    9) Muslims have been allied to the Monophysite side of the conflict.
    10) After the mayhem of the last years of the Visigotic rule, the Muslim conquerors have been greeted as liberators and peace makers by the Iberian Christians (both Monophysite and Catholics) and the very numerous Iberian Jews.

    Other than that you are absolutely correct.

    😉

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @songbird, @German_reader

    Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism

    He wasn’t the last Visigothic king, the Visigothic realm had more of a century of history after him left, and any conflict between Arians and Catholics was long past by 711 (and while my Christological knowledge is shaky, iirc Arians can’t be described as monophysites, the issue with them was about the relationship between God the father and Christ, not about Christ’s two natures). In the 7th century there was very close cooperation between the Visigothic kings and the Catholic church, manifested in the great councils of Toledo (which were important for later canon law); in many ways it was a continuation of Late Roman models on a lesser scale. The late Visigothic kings were also anointed decades before Pepin received royal unction in 751, so it seems like Visigothic Spain might have even been in the vanguard of developments in Latin Europe, before the Islamic invasion interrupted everything.
    Re the Islamic invasion: There probably was some civil strife in Visigothic Spain about a disputed royal succession (the kingship was elective, if maybe limited to certain lineages iirc; but there was no clear father-son succession), and one faction may have foolishly invited Islamic mercenaries for aid (hard to know for certain, the sources are bad). But the internal conflict didn’t have any religious dimension and it’s pure speculation to state that anybody greeted the Muslims as “liberators” (not even clear regarding the Jews; there was severe anti-Jewish legislation by the Visigothic kings, but some scholars claim there weren’t actually any large Jewish communities in Spain before the Islamic invasion).
    Roger Collins, Early Medieval Spain: Unity in diversity 400-1000 is good on this period imo (despite what one might suspect from the title it isn’t a multiculti propaganda piece).

    Anyway, you were wrong about a lot of issues, so don’t be so excessively self-confident towards other users (“Other than that you are absolutely correct”).
    I’ll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to “Hyperborean” and “Songbird” too, always liked you guys.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @German_reader

    Thanks for the input. We clearly have dissenting opinions, but I will look into the information you provided.

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    I’ll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to “Hyperborean” and “Songbird” too, always liked you guys.
     
    Thank you, your erudite comments regarding historical matters are always interesting. Shame about the German censorship law.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  159. @Ano4
    @Korenchkin

    https://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-the-observed-haplogroup-E-V13-frequencies-Cruciani-et-al-2007_fig2_255661452

    Haplogroups in the modern Albanian population is dominated by E-V13. On the European continent it has the highest concentration in Kosovo (over 45%).

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    🙂

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    That does not make them the natives of the area, there is also the absence of Albanian toponyms and a lack of even medieval structures
    They aren’t even mentioned until like, what, the 10th Century?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Korenchkin

    They were probably there in the Neolithic. Isn't this native enough? Before that some Y haplogroup C hunter gatherers roamed Eurasia, but they went nearly extinct in Europe. Haplogroup I was also present in small numbers and did increase during the Atlantic Megalithic Culture times before getting largely replaced by the Bell Beaker folks.

    Bottom line Y haplogroup E-V13 was there before Mycenian Greeks. Greeks brought R1b and R1a. Celts brought even more R1b and Romans did too. Finally Slavs come from modern day Russia bringing R1a and I. So Y haplogroup E-V13 got diluted a lot, except in some mountain strongholds.

    About toponyms, are there Illyrian toponyms, Thracian toponyms, Celtic toponyms, Roman and Greek ones surviving in the area?

    If not, it simply means that Slavs did a great job at erasing anything that was there before they invaded.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  160. @German_reader
    @Ano4


    Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism
     
    He wasn't the last Visigothic king, the Visigothic realm had more of a century of history after him left, and any conflict between Arians and Catholics was long past by 711 (and while my Christological knowledge is shaky, iirc Arians can't be described as monophysites, the issue with them was about the relationship between God the father and Christ, not about Christ's two natures). In the 7th century there was very close cooperation between the Visigothic kings and the Catholic church, manifested in the great councils of Toledo (which were important for later canon law); in many ways it was a continuation of Late Roman models on a lesser scale. The late Visigothic kings were also anointed decades before Pepin received royal unction in 751, so it seems like Visigothic Spain might have even been in the vanguard of developments in Latin Europe, before the Islamic invasion interrupted everything.
    Re the Islamic invasion: There probably was some civil strife in Visigothic Spain about a disputed royal succession (the kingship was elective, if maybe limited to certain lineages iirc; but there was no clear father-son succession), and one faction may have foolishly invited Islamic mercenaries for aid (hard to know for certain, the sources are bad). But the internal conflict didn't have any religious dimension and it's pure speculation to state that anybody greeted the Muslims as "liberators" (not even clear regarding the Jews; there was severe anti-Jewish legislation by the Visigothic kings, but some scholars claim there weren't actually any large Jewish communities in Spain before the Islamic invasion).
    Roger Collins, Early Medieval Spain: Unity in diversity 400-1000 is good on this period imo (despite what one might suspect from the title it isn't a multiculti propaganda piece).

    Anyway, you were wrong about a lot of issues, so don't be so excessively self-confident towards other users ("Other than that you are absolutely correct").
    I'll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to "Hyperborean" and "Songbird" too, always liked you guys.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

    Thanks for the input. We clearly have dissenting opinions, but I will look into the information you provided.

  161. @Korenchkin
    @Ano4

    That does not make them the natives of the area, there is also the absence of Albanian toponyms and a lack of even medieval structures
    They aren't even mentioned until like, what, the 10th Century?

    Replies: @Ano4

    They were probably there in the Neolithic. Isn’t this native enough? Before that some Y haplogroup C hunter gatherers roamed Eurasia, but they went nearly extinct in Europe. Haplogroup I was also present in small numbers and did increase during the Atlantic Megalithic Culture times before getting largely replaced by the Bell Beaker folks.

    Bottom line Y haplogroup E-V13 was there before Mycenian Greeks. Greeks brought R1b and R1a. Celts brought even more R1b and Romans did too. Finally Slavs come from modern day Russia bringing R1a and I. So Y haplogroup E-V13 got diluted a lot, except in some mountain strongholds.

    About toponyms, are there Illyrian toponyms, Thracian toponyms, Celtic toponyms, Roman and Greek ones surviving in the area?

    If not, it simply means that Slavs did a great job at erasing anything that was there before they invaded.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Ano4


    Bottom line Y haplogroup E-V13 was there before Mycenian Greeks. Greeks brought R1b and R1a. Celts brought even more R1b and Romans did too. Finally Slavs come from modern day Russia bringing R1a and I.
     
    Almost none of this is true, you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about

    Replies: @Ano4

  162. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    @Priss Factor

    Easily one of the worst comments I've ever read on this site.


    As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement.
     
    This is one of the gayest things I've ever read.

    They don't have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he'd order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.


    In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.
     
    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it's by far the best way to win restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?
     
    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    The rest of your comment is a disgusting embarrassment to your European ancestors.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Priss Factor

    They don’t have real confidence. If Andrew Jackson, he’d order in the US Army to bust their heads open, and they would run away. These people are pussies. They continue to cause trouble only because they have the support of our legal system, which generally refuses to stop the chaos.

    But white people today are such pussies that they can’t produce another Andrew Jackson and run away even from tranny mobs. Look at Mike Pence. He claims to be a good Christian, but he cucks like a toad before the cast of HAMILTON and kowtowed to globo-homo in Indiana. Pence, so afraid of the Jews, relented to globo-homo demands because Jews demanded it. If whites are so strong in heart and mind, why were they so easily goaded along by Jews?

    Faith is about contemplating the divine. And if you had studied any religious outburst literally ever, you would know that it’s by far the best way to win restless youth.

    No, you dammy. Restless youth in this day and age can’t be expected to go for deep religion. They may come to that later, but the Culture War for the youth has to be about something exciting in the here-and-now.

    The Tridentine Mass. I should know. I was a restless and sin-stricken digital age 20 something loser until I found the truth.

    Don’t think what appealed to you will appeal to most youths. Also, Catholic Church itself is a total joke these days, and the Orthodox Community isn’t far behind. Over 50% of Orthodox folks are for ‘gay marriage’. It’s all a sad joke.

  163. @Ano4
    @Wency

    You are right.
    Modern Turks are a Levantine/Mediterranean/Anatolian population.
    Those among them who trace their ancestry to Central Asia (let alone the Orkhon Valley) are an absolute minority.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    So what? Culturally, most of those people (except Kurds, Alevis, Laz) have become Sunni Turks.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Agathoklis

    Of course they did, but this Turkish culture too is not Central Asian.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  164. @Wielgus
    @Agathoklis

    There are a fair number of ethnic Greeks in Albania, mostly in the south. Although not one himself, Enver Hoxha had some grasp of the Greek language because in his home town of Gjirokaster about a third of the people were ethnic Greeks and it is likely Hoxha would have heard the language while growing up.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Yes, I know. Those ethnic Greeks are still there but occasionally hassled by the Albanian para-state sometimes murdered by thugs.

  165. @German_reader
    @Ano4


    Their last king Recaredo who converted to Catholicism
     
    He wasn't the last Visigothic king, the Visigothic realm had more of a century of history after him left, and any conflict between Arians and Catholics was long past by 711 (and while my Christological knowledge is shaky, iirc Arians can't be described as monophysites, the issue with them was about the relationship between God the father and Christ, not about Christ's two natures). In the 7th century there was very close cooperation between the Visigothic kings and the Catholic church, manifested in the great councils of Toledo (which were important for later canon law); in many ways it was a continuation of Late Roman models on a lesser scale. The late Visigothic kings were also anointed decades before Pepin received royal unction in 751, so it seems like Visigothic Spain might have even been in the vanguard of developments in Latin Europe, before the Islamic invasion interrupted everything.
    Re the Islamic invasion: There probably was some civil strife in Visigothic Spain about a disputed royal succession (the kingship was elective, if maybe limited to certain lineages iirc; but there was no clear father-son succession), and one faction may have foolishly invited Islamic mercenaries for aid (hard to know for certain, the sources are bad). But the internal conflict didn't have any religious dimension and it's pure speculation to state that anybody greeted the Muslims as "liberators" (not even clear regarding the Jews; there was severe anti-Jewish legislation by the Visigothic kings, but some scholars claim there weren't actually any large Jewish communities in Spain before the Islamic invasion).
    Roger Collins, Early Medieval Spain: Unity in diversity 400-1000 is good on this period imo (despite what one might suspect from the title it isn't a multiculti propaganda piece).

    Anyway, you were wrong about a lot of issues, so don't be so excessively self-confident towards other users ("Other than that you are absolutely correct").
    I'll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to "Hyperborean" and "Songbird" too, always liked you guys.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

    I’ll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to “Hyperborean” and “Songbird” too, always liked you guys.

    Thank you, your erudite comments regarding historical matters are always interesting. Shame about the German censorship law.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn't aware that there was a "German censorship" law in place at this blog?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  166. @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    I’ll be off again, though I found it touching that Dmitry misses me, thanks! Greetings to “Hyperborean” and “Songbird” too, always liked you guys.
     
    Thank you, your erudite comments regarding historical matters are always interesting. Shame about the German censorship law.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn’t aware that there was a “German censorship” law in place at this blog?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn’t aware that there was a “German censorship” law in place at this blog?
     
    There's nothing at this blog. It's part of the BRD's escalating suppression campaign (without, of course, any significant outcry from those international gutmenschen who often express heartfelt "concerns" about Poland or Hungary).

    https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/19/germany-tightens-online-hate-speech-rules-to-make-platforms-send-reports-straight-to-the-feds/

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

  167. @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    So what? Culturally, most of those people (except Kurds, Alevis, Laz) have become Sunni Turks.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Of course they did, but this Turkish culture too is not Central Asian.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    I would be careful to overly conflate genetics and culture. Culture does not always follow genetics. Turks; particularly, western Turks, resemble Greeks genetically with some additional western and central Asian admixture but culturally the difference with Greeks is immense and unbridgeable. And those western Turks are not going to suddenly wake up one day, after doing a 23andMe test, and realise they are really Greek or Armenian genetically and go out and convert to Christianity, start learning Greek or Armenian and behaving like Greeks and Armenians.

    Replies: @Ano4

  168. @Felix Keverich
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What about Chechnya and Tatarstan?

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    Not to mention Samara, Saratov, Rostov, Ingushetia, and Ufa. Islam is the religion of the future in Russia.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @Peter Akuleyev

    Islam is the cult of subhumans, and I'd like to think that Russia's future is better, than that.

    , @Philip Owen
    @Peter Akuleyev

    There are many Tatars in Saratov Province especially on former German territory and a huge mosque in the city. On Friday people walk there in large numbers. The University of Kazan has an outpost there. I sometimes go to the market and I am the only European in the cafe where they serve a lamb broth a lot like the one we eat in Wales. It is served in a pot with a norrow neck.

    All this said, I see no sign of a cultural take over. There are several cathedrals and many restored churches, my favourite is in a bakery. They bless the bread. I guess they did before the revolution.

    Everybody seems to get along.

  169. @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn't aware that there was a "German censorship" law in place at this blog?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn’t aware that there was a “German censorship” law in place at this blog?

    There’s nothing at this blog. It’s part of the BRD’s escalating suppression campaign (without, of course, any significant outcry from those international gutmenschen who often express heartfelt “concerns” about Poland or Hungary).

    https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/19/germany-tightens-online-hate-speech-rules-to-make-platforms-send-reports-straight-to-the-feds/

    • Replies: @A123
    @Hyperborean

    "Gutmenschen"? Really?

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    The German sheeple stand around waving Welcome Rape-ugee signs. Germans fully accept and embrace Muslim invaders raping underage German girls. Given the proven fact that the German sheeple 100% approve of Islamic paedophilia... what good would it do to complain about Nazlamic speech restrictions?

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel's depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel's threat to Christianity.

    Is that "heartfelt" enough for you?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Gerard-Mandela, @dfordoom

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    That's really too bad. I always found German Reader's responses here quite well measured and rational, with no malice being exhibited to anybody. Could it be that he's not being specifically singled out, but only by the act of commenting at this blog, that's been undergoing further censorship elsewhere, that he feels that he's being monitored?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  170. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn’t aware that there was a “German censorship” law in place at this blog?
     
    There's nothing at this blog. It's part of the BRD's escalating suppression campaign (without, of course, any significant outcry from those international gutmenschen who often express heartfelt "concerns" about Poland or Hungary).

    https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/19/germany-tightens-online-hate-speech-rules-to-make-platforms-send-reports-straight-to-the-feds/

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

    “Gutmenschen”? Really?

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    The German sheeple stand around waving Welcome Rape-ugee signs. Germans fully accept and embrace Muslim invaders raping underage German girls. Given the proven fact that the German sheeple 100% approve of Islamic paedophilia… what good would it do to complain about Nazlamic speech restrictions?

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.

    Is that “heartfelt” enough for you?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @A123


    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.

    Is that “heartfelt” enough for you?
     
    Yes, it is. I am just waiting for the racialised AZN, Latinx and Blaq Folx soldiers of the Glorious USSA to launch missiles in the shape of buttplugs and dildos towards Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt am Main, Dresden, Leipzig and Hamburg.

    Oh, and let's not forget the rainbow-coloured mushroom cloud.

    Replies: @A123

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @A123


    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.
     
    LOL.....Hungary I can accept, to include the Polish people in that is cretinous. Poland is the biggest prostitute state there is, millions of them living in Germany ( and UK), giving absolutely nothing good in return, the country is basically semi-nice Warsaw and Krakow with the rest of it basically being Albania.

    It has such abysmal cultural achievement over 500 years for such a relatively big European country....the chances are that this post I am writing now is superior to any cultural success obtained by a Pole, ever.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Amiga

    , @dfordoom
    @A123


    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.
     
    You can't recreate the past. Christendom is not coming back.

    Replies: @Excal

  171. @A123
    @Hyperborean

    "Gutmenschen"? Really?

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    The German sheeple stand around waving Welcome Rape-ugee signs. Germans fully accept and embrace Muslim invaders raping underage German girls. Given the proven fact that the German sheeple 100% approve of Islamic paedophilia... what good would it do to complain about Nazlamic speech restrictions?

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel's depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel's threat to Christianity.

    Is that "heartfelt" enough for you?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Gerard-Mandela, @dfordoom

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.

    Is that “heartfelt” enough for you?

    Yes, it is. I am just waiting for the racialised AZN, Latinx and Blaq Folx soldiers of the Glorious USSA to launch missiles in the shape of buttplugs and dildos towards Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt am Main, Dresden, Leipzig and Hamburg.

    Oh, and let’s not forget the rainbow-coloured mushroom cloud.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Hyperborean

    Your exhortation is premature and assumes an unlikely to impossible outcome. Trump's victory this November is almost guaranteed.

    That being said... Biden's SJW Globalist vile DNC is just as bad as Mullah Merkel's SJW Globalist vile CDU. They are both instruments of IslamoGloboHomo. If Biden manages a coup and the U.S. falls to his ShariaHomo compliant DNC... I will be trying to flee the country before the IslamoHomo unicorn cavalry deploys its Flaming Jihadi Rainbow Buttplugs of Muslim Sodomy.

    No doubt you are correct that the HomoQuran dictates flaming rainbow-coloured mushroom clouds as an essential element of paedophilic conquest over HetroChristianity. Celebrate your Muslim Gaybows while you have them... They will not last.

    PEACE 😇

  172. AaronB, you wanted to know what White American culture really is? Rejoice, for your tax money has given you the answer!

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    This is actually an extremely accurate description of American white Protestant culture lol.

    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.

    My thesis is that the white Western intellectual class tried to reform this culture through movements like Romanticism - but they failed. The ideals of Thoreau and Emerson did not take root in America, and the ideals of Blake and Wordsworth did not take root in England.

    In desperation, white Western intellectual elites are now destroying Western culture root and branch, the good and the bad together. Because this culture failed at producing happiness. It has lived past its time. Figures like Elon Musk no longer contribute to human happiness.

    On the other hand, if you made a similar list for modern China it would be quite horrifically worse. Or the modern Islamic world. So what choice do we have but to support America and the West?

    Thanks for posting this.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  173. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    I enjoyed his commentary as well. I wasn’t aware that there was a “German censorship” law in place at this blog?
     
    There's nothing at this blog. It's part of the BRD's escalating suppression campaign (without, of course, any significant outcry from those international gutmenschen who often express heartfelt "concerns" about Poland or Hungary).

    https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/19/germany-tightens-online-hate-speech-rules-to-make-platforms-send-reports-straight-to-the-feds/

    Replies: @A123, @Mr. Hack

    That’s really too bad. I always found German Reader’s responses here quite well measured and rational, with no malice being exhibited to anybody. Could it be that he’s not being specifically singled out, but only by the act of commenting at this blog, that’s been undergoing further censorship elsewhere, that he feels that he’s being monitored?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. Hack


    That’s really too bad. I always found German Reader’s responses here quite well measured and rational, with no malice being exhibited to anybody. Could it be that he’s not being specifically singled out, but only by the act of commenting at this blog, that’s been undergoing further censorship elsewhere, that he feels that he’s being monitored?
     
    Private individuals and entities can flag content, essentially big fodder for various types of activists.
  174. @Hyperborean
    @A123


    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.

    Is that “heartfelt” enough for you?
     
    Yes, it is. I am just waiting for the racialised AZN, Latinx and Blaq Folx soldiers of the Glorious USSA to launch missiles in the shape of buttplugs and dildos towards Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt am Main, Dresden, Leipzig and Hamburg.

    Oh, and let's not forget the rainbow-coloured mushroom cloud.

    Replies: @A123

    Your exhortation is premature and assumes an unlikely to impossible outcome. Trump’s victory this November is almost guaranteed.

    That being said… Biden’s SJW Globalist vile DNC is just as bad as Mullah Merkel’s SJW Globalist vile CDU. They are both instruments of IslamoGloboHomo. If Biden manages a coup and the U.S. falls to his ShariaHomo compliant DNC… I will be trying to flee the country before the IslamoHomo unicorn cavalry deploys its Flaming Jihadi Rainbow Buttplugs of Muslim Sodomy.

    No doubt you are correct that the HomoQuran dictates flaming rainbow-coloured mushroom clouds as an essential element of paedophilic conquest over HetroChristianity. Celebrate your Muslim Gaybows while you have them… They will not last.

    PEACE 😇

  175. @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Despite this being said, I am pretty certain that in the next few decades the Semitic family feud between the sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar will end in an amicable manner
     
    There are signs that Muslims are beginning to accept Israel and even have positive attitudes towards it. Israeli Muslims are volunteering to the IDF at ever increasing numbers.

    The Islamist extremists on this site do not represent all of Islam. There is a good side to Islam which I think will increasingly come to be developed, even as the Islamic world in general wanes in influence. Perhaps the two must go hand in hand - the aggressive side of Islam must wane before its Sufi side may come to the fore.

    ganging up against the weakened Christians.
     
    This I don't see happening, frankly. I am friends with many Orthodox Jews. I sometimes discuss Christians - I have heard only positive things from them on Christians. The general attitude is that they are good and moral people who are serving God in a way that may be appropriate for them. Today at least, the attitude towards Christians is much more positive than towards Muslims, but even towards Muslims the attitude is nuanced and not entirely hostile.

    Of course if Christians started persecuting Jews again that would change - but that chapter of history seems to be over.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Jews are pragmatic opportunists, as soon as they will understand that cooperating with their Ishmaelite cousins is in their best interest they will switch sides again.

    [MORE]

    Demographics is destiny.

    The demographic change that will come in the next generation is tremendous. Subsaharan Blacks will be way too numerous for their economically backwater countries. They will be outpouring on the MENA territory, Israel included. This is already happening.

    On the South shore of the Mediterranean, in the Maghrib by 2050 the population would reach 100 million people, these Arabo-Berber Muslims will live less than two hours by plane from their 30 million cousins in Western Europe. By that time, the Western Europeans will be way older with way less children and completely demoralized. The Globalised Elites will be blamed for the degeneration that is eating up the West and the Jews will be pointed as responsible for the destruction of Europe. This too is already happening.

    When tens of millions of Blacks will start to migrate towards the North, MENA people both Muslim and Jewish will cooperate to block this mass migration.

    When Western Europe becomes completely demoralized and disfunctional, Muslims and Jews will cooperate to ensure their comfort is not affected by the overall morass.

    Moreover, the Jewish-Muslim cooperation will also bring both shores of the Mediterranean closer. The Mediterranean will again be seen as Mare Nostrum to be protected at all costs against the Negroid tidal wave.

    Christian faith, especially Catholic Church will be in its terminal state of decay in the West. A new religious consensus will be needed. Jews, Muslims and the remaining Christians will create this consensus with Jews bringing brains, Muslims bringing violence and the Christians bringing everything else.

    By the end of 2050-ies an Abrahamic confederation, dominated by the sons of Isaac and Ishmael will rule the Mediterranean area and continental Western Europe.

    Jews will keep their privileged status, Muslims will climb a few social levels, and the former Christians will lose privileged status. This is also already happening.

    Also, see Kalachakra Tantra for the following events up to year 2400.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Jews are pragmatic opportunists
     
    To a certain extent, yes - but that can be said of everyone who is trying to survive. Christian European countries were plenty pragmatic and opportunist when necessary. Christian countries would often side with Turks against other Christian countries.

    That being said, Jews certainly have a pronounced Romantic and Quixotic streak. The modern creation of Israel was a very Romantic and Quixotic project at root, and Jewish history is full of that kind of stuff. But again, many peoples have a Romantic streak, so there is nothing unique here.

    As for the rest of your post, that is a very detailed and vividly imaginative forecast :) I don't agree with it, but it is interesting.

    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone - I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy.

    I do agree with you that a new spiritual consensus will be reached eventually. That always happens. But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements - our current elites are very enamored of these traditions, just as China seems entirely consumed by the authoritarian strain in the Western Enlightenment.

    Whatever influence Islam plays in this new dispensation, it won't be the aggressive and primitive Islam that we know now, which is played out. And Christianity - particularly Orthodoxy - has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.

    I think the elite class will likely have a religion distinct from the masses as well - or at least, continuous with the religion of the masses but with such a different emphasis as to be practically a different religion. But perhaps all religion is like this.

    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts :)

    Replies: @Ano4

  176. @Ano4
    @Agathoklis

    Of course they did, but this Turkish culture too is not Central Asian.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    I would be careful to overly conflate genetics and culture. Culture does not always follow genetics. Turks; particularly, western Turks, resemble Greeks genetically with some additional western and central Asian admixture but culturally the difference with Greeks is immense and unbridgeable. And those western Turks are not going to suddenly wake up one day, after doing a 23andMe test, and realise they are really Greek or Armenian genetically and go out and convert to Christianity, start learning Greek or Armenian and behaving like Greeks and Armenians.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Agathoklis

    I agree. A question one must ask though is what is more important: nature or nurture (or genetics or culture)? For the proponents of the HBD the genetics are more important. For the social constructivism types, the culture (socialisation) is paramount.



    I believe both are important and interlinked. Fact is, despite their "muh Islam" modern day Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years.

    If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds.

    If they don't start another war in the next 25 years, these three ethnic groups will probably progressively come closer despite their cultural differences. This will help all of them on the geopolitical, economic and social level, making them an important feature to account with in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black sea area.

    To some extent it would bring back some of the Byzantine greatness.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  177. @Hyperborean
    AaronB, you wanted to know what White American culture really is? Rejoice, for your tax money has given you the answer!

    https://2qkhyt1u78lw1ll02a1kxrzq-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/whiteculture_info_1.png

    Replies: @AaronB

    This is actually an extremely accurate description of American white Protestant culture lol.

    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.

    My thesis is that the white Western intellectual class tried to reform this culture through movements like Romanticism – but they failed. The ideals of Thoreau and Emerson did not take root in America, and the ideals of Blake and Wordsworth did not take root in England.

    In desperation, white Western intellectual elites are now destroying Western culture root and branch, the good and the bad together. Because this culture failed at producing happiness. It has lived past its time. Figures like Elon Musk no longer contribute to human happiness.

    On the other hand, if you made a similar list for modern China it would be quite horrifically worse. Or the modern Islamic world. So what choice do we have but to support America and the West?

    Thanks for posting this.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @AaronB


    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.
     
    Right, but this is a state museum for blacks, I don't think the state teaching them that things like cause and effect, delayed gratification, politeness, hard work, time management, respect for property and authority, and proper English are haram will have any positive effect on them.

    Replies: @AaronB

  178. @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    I would be careful to overly conflate genetics and culture. Culture does not always follow genetics. Turks; particularly, western Turks, resemble Greeks genetically with some additional western and central Asian admixture but culturally the difference with Greeks is immense and unbridgeable. And those western Turks are not going to suddenly wake up one day, after doing a 23andMe test, and realise they are really Greek or Armenian genetically and go out and convert to Christianity, start learning Greek or Armenian and behaving like Greeks and Armenians.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I agree. A question one must ask though is what is more important: nature or nurture (or genetics or culture)? For the proponents of the HBD the genetics are more important. For the social constructivism types, the culture (socialisation) is paramount.

    [MORE]

    I believe both are important and interlinked. Fact is, despite their “muh Islam” modern day Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years.

    If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds.

    If they don’t start another war in the next 25 years, these three ethnic groups will probably progressively come closer despite their cultural differences. This will help all of them on the geopolitical, economic and social level, making them an important feature to account with in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black sea area.

    To some extent it would bring back some of the Byzantine greatness.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    "Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years."

    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence.

    "If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds."

    Unfortunately, this is what neutral outsiders do not understand, those so called "bad memories" are borne of significant political and cultural differences.

    There is absolutely no chance Greeks and Armenians would come together with Turks unless it was like it was before, enforced subjection.

    Replies: @Ano4

  179. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Jews are pragmatic opportunists, as soon as they will understand that cooperating with their Ishmaelite cousins is in their best interest they will switch sides again.

    Demographics is destiny.

    The demographic change that will come in the next generation is tremendous. Subsaharan Blacks will be way too numerous for their economically backwater countries. They will be outpouring on the MENA territory, Israel included. This is already happening.

    On the South shore of the Mediterranean, in the Maghrib by 2050 the population would reach 100 million people, these Arabo-Berber Muslims will live less than two hours by plane from their 30 million cousins in Western Europe. By that time, the Western Europeans will be way older with way less children and completely demoralized. The Globalised Elites will be blamed for the degeneration that is eating up the West and the Jews will be pointed as responsible for the destruction of Europe. This too is already happening.

    When tens of millions of Blacks will start to migrate towards the North, MENA people both Muslim and Jewish will cooperate to block this mass migration.

    When Western Europe becomes completely demoralized and disfunctional, Muslims and Jews will cooperate to ensure their comfort is not affected by the overall morass.

    Moreover, the Jewish-Muslim cooperation will also bring both shores of the Mediterranean closer. The Mediterranean will again be seen as Mare Nostrum to be protected at all costs against the Negroid tidal wave.

    Christian faith, especially Catholic Church will be in its terminal state of decay in the West. A new religious consensus will be needed. Jews, Muslims and the remaining Christians will create this consensus with Jews bringing brains, Muslims bringing violence and the Christians bringing everything else.

    By the end of 2050-ies an Abrahamic confederation, dominated by the sons of Isaac and Ishmael will rule the Mediterranean area and continental Western Europe.

    Jews will keep their privileged status, Muslims will climb a few social levels, and the former Christians will lose privileged status. This is also already happening.

    Also, see Kalachakra Tantra for the following events up to year 2400.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Jews are pragmatic opportunists

    To a certain extent, yes – but that can be said of everyone who is trying to survive. Christian European countries were plenty pragmatic and opportunist when necessary. Christian countries would often side with Turks against other Christian countries.

    That being said, Jews certainly have a pronounced Romantic and Quixotic streak. The modern creation of Israel was a very Romantic and Quixotic project at root, and Jewish history is full of that kind of stuff. But again, many peoples have a Romantic streak, so there is nothing unique here.

    As for the rest of your post, that is a very detailed and vividly imaginative forecast 🙂 I don’t agree with it, but it is interesting.

    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone – I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy.

    I do agree with you that a new spiritual consensus will be reached eventually. That always happens. But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements – our current elites are very enamored of these traditions, just as China seems entirely consumed by the authoritarian strain in the Western Enlightenment.

    Whatever influence Islam plays in this new dispensation, it won’t be the aggressive and primitive Islam that we know now, which is played out. And Christianity – particularly Orthodoxy – has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.

    I think the elite class will likely have a religion distinct from the masses as well – or at least, continuous with the religion of the masses but with such a different emphasis as to be practically a different religion. But perhaps all religion is like this.

    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts 🙂

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB


    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone – I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy
     
    If Muslims were rational that is what would happen, but they are not. In the last decades Islam has grown stronger. It will continue growing stronger because these people need some spiritual solace and the more they are despised and dehumanized, the more they will cling to some memories of former Greatness. Besides, the West has not much to offer to the ones you call the Quixotic type and many of the young Muslims are exactly that.


    But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements – our current elites are very enamored of these traditions,
     
    Yes, but as the Cold War with and decoupling from China are getting momentum the "Oriental Spiritual Orientation" would be weakened in the West. OTOH the Dharmic revival will continue in the East. Quite possibly, in the future the Dharmic compatibility of the Advaita Vedanta and Cittamatra/Vijnanavada will bring Hinduism and Buddhism closer. It will take time, but eventually these two traditions might become a basis for a new Asian Spirituality distinct from Abrahamic Faiths, but even more universal and completely compatible with scientific progress.

    This is where the Kalachakra Tantra prophecy comes to mind: an Abrahamic Civilization confronting a Dharmic Civilization around 2400 CE.
    Tibetan Buddhists believe in it very strongly, if other Asian people adopt similar beliefs it is bound to happen.

    Orthodoxy – has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.
     
    This would certainly have happened if Russian Empire endured. But it was destroyed and probably one of the reasons it was destroyed was exactly the strength of the Russian Orthodox spirit. It was too strong to be manipulated towards a Globalized and rootless world system.

    That's why tens of millions of Russians have been genocided with a great enthusiasm by both the bloodthirsty Jewish commissars and the proud Nazi German übermenshen, while the West in general felt no tremors about these pesky Russkies dying.

    Now Russians are not strong enough anymore to save the world from the future catastrophic opposition between the Dharmic Asia and the Abrahamic West. Moreover, the line of demarcation between Dharmic and Abrahamic belief systems will pass right on the Russian territory. I believe Russia will end-up split in two with each of the two parts joining the opposite sides of the conflict.


    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts
     
    Alan would have wanted none of it. He was too smart to be a real Guru.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @anonymous coward

  180. @A123
    @Hyperborean

    "Gutmenschen"? Really?

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    The German sheeple stand around waving Welcome Rape-ugee signs. Germans fully accept and embrace Muslim invaders raping underage German girls. Given the proven fact that the German sheeple 100% approve of Islamic paedophilia... what good would it do to complain about Nazlamic speech restrictions?

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel's depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel's threat to Christianity.

    Is that "heartfelt" enough for you?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Gerard-Mandela, @dfordoom

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    LOL…..Hungary I can accept, to include the Polish people in that is cretinous. Poland is the biggest prostitute state there is, millions of them living in Germany ( and UK), giving absolutely nothing good in return, the country is basically semi-nice Warsaw and Krakow with the rest of it basically being Albania.

    It has such abysmal cultural achievement over 500 years for such a relatively big European country….the chances are that this post I am writing now is superior to any cultural success obtained by a Pole, ever.

    • LOL: EldnahYm
    • Troll: Peter Akuleyev
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Gerard's Pole bashing is far superior to his Ukraine hate.

    , @Amiga
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Of course poland in the last 500 years became the capital of jewery after being expulsed from western europe , in 1600 30% of the population were jews and like everything jews touch trasform into shit poland would be no different , is only after the purification of 1945 that poland is starting to grow again while usa the central capital of jewery today is imploding for the same reason once poland did .

  181. @AaronB
    @Ano4


    Jews are pragmatic opportunists
     
    To a certain extent, yes - but that can be said of everyone who is trying to survive. Christian European countries were plenty pragmatic and opportunist when necessary. Christian countries would often side with Turks against other Christian countries.

    That being said, Jews certainly have a pronounced Romantic and Quixotic streak. The modern creation of Israel was a very Romantic and Quixotic project at root, and Jewish history is full of that kind of stuff. But again, many peoples have a Romantic streak, so there is nothing unique here.

    As for the rest of your post, that is a very detailed and vividly imaginative forecast :) I don't agree with it, but it is interesting.

    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone - I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy.

    I do agree with you that a new spiritual consensus will be reached eventually. That always happens. But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements - our current elites are very enamored of these traditions, just as China seems entirely consumed by the authoritarian strain in the Western Enlightenment.

    Whatever influence Islam plays in this new dispensation, it won't be the aggressive and primitive Islam that we know now, which is played out. And Christianity - particularly Orthodoxy - has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.

    I think the elite class will likely have a religion distinct from the masses as well - or at least, continuous with the religion of the masses but with such a different emphasis as to be practically a different religion. But perhaps all religion is like this.

    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts :)

    Replies: @Ano4

    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone – I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy

    If Muslims were rational that is what would happen, but they are not. In the last decades Islam has grown stronger. It will continue growing stronger because these people need some spiritual solace and the more they are despised and dehumanized, the more they will cling to some memories of former Greatness. Besides, the West has not much to offer to the ones you call the Quixotic type and many of the young Muslims are exactly that.

    [MORE]

    But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements – our current elites are very enamored of these traditions,

    Yes, but as the Cold War with and decoupling from China are getting momentum the “Oriental Spiritual Orientation” would be weakened in the West. OTOH the Dharmic revival will continue in the East. Quite possibly, in the future the Dharmic compatibility of the Advaita Vedanta and Cittamatra/Vijnanavada will bring Hinduism and Buddhism closer. It will take time, but eventually these two traditions might become a basis for a new Asian Spirituality distinct from Abrahamic Faiths, but even more universal and completely compatible with scientific progress.

    This is where the Kalachakra Tantra prophecy comes to mind: an Abrahamic Civilization confronting a Dharmic Civilization around 2400 CE.
    Tibetan Buddhists believe in it very strongly, if other Asian people adopt similar beliefs it is bound to happen.

    Orthodoxy – has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.

    This would certainly have happened if Russian Empire endured. But it was destroyed and probably one of the reasons it was destroyed was exactly the strength of the Russian Orthodox spirit. It was too strong to be manipulated towards a Globalized and rootless world system.

    That’s why tens of millions of Russians have been genocided with a great enthusiasm by both the bloodthirsty Jewish commissars and the proud Nazi German übermenshen, while the West in general felt no tremors about these pesky Russkies dying.

    Now Russians are not strong enough anymore to save the world from the future catastrophic opposition between the Dharmic Asia and the Abrahamic West. Moreover, the line of demarcation between Dharmic and Abrahamic belief systems will pass right on the Russian territory. I believe Russia will end-up split in two with each of the two parts joining the opposite sides of the conflict.

    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts

    Alan would have wanted none of it. He was too smart to be a real Guru.

    😄

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Generally, a civilization based on violence always reaches an end point. Islam was based on conquest, but it's last great age of conquest ended in the 17th century. Since then its been spinning its wheels. It's turning its aggression inward, because it has no serious external outlets.

    To survive into the future, Islam will have to reinvent itself. The aggressive element is played out - if it persists, it will just self-destruct completely.

    Happened to Rome, to Europe, to Japan. Even Jews had to reinvent themselves after the Exile deprived them of a national home they could defend with arms.

    When a channel is blocked, water has to flow through a different channel. Or dry up.

    The types of people who are hard core Islamists today are not the idealistic Romantic types anymore - on this board, you have people like Talha, AnonStarter, Kevin Barret. They all seem mildly sociopathic - especially the superficially charming Talha, a noted sociopathic trait - and with anger management issues. Also grim and humorless. This is not the exuberant, idealistic type that sweeps all before it and leads a civilization to new heights and represents its best. They also seem boringly conservative, preoccupied with gays and what not instead of more exciting spiritual things. Conservatives never win.

    I think we are seeing the twilight of the Old Islam. And the new Islam - based on Sufism - will be a weak element in any new synthesis. Orthodox Christianity already has everything needed to be competitive in this new environment. Islam will also have a bad odor from its recent violent past.

    I don't think the current animosity with China will lead to any rejection of Buddhism or Eastern spirituality in general - just as Christian animosity to Jews did not lead to rejection of the Bible. The French and British elites, for instance, were quite friendly throughout their wars.

    Also, the Esoteric traditions of the West are practically the same thing - just a question if semantics and expression.

    Alan Watts of course would not want disciples, true - but he won't have a choice in the matter. Sadly, because when you institutionalize the Free Spirit - and that always happens - you kill it. All the great religious figures warn of this. Still, there will always be a few genuine Free Spirits.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @anonymous coward
    @Ano4


    Dharmic Asia
     
    You're nuts if you think China is somehow "Dharmic".

    ...and the Abrahamic West
     
    There is no common ground between Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Christianity is much closer to e.g., Chinese traditional religion than the gnostic Satan-worship of the Jews and Muslims. (Except for Twelver Shia, they're insane but at least they're pointed in the right direction.)
  182. @Ano4
    @Agathoklis

    I agree. A question one must ask though is what is more important: nature or nurture (or genetics or culture)? For the proponents of the HBD the genetics are more important. For the social constructivism types, the culture (socialisation) is paramount.



    I believe both are important and interlinked. Fact is, despite their "muh Islam" modern day Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years.

    If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds.

    If they don't start another war in the next 25 years, these three ethnic groups will probably progressively come closer despite their cultural differences. This will help all of them on the geopolitical, economic and social level, making them an important feature to account with in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black sea area.

    To some extent it would bring back some of the Byzantine greatness.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    “Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years.”

    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence.

    “If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds.”

    Unfortunately, this is what neutral outsiders do not understand, those so called “bad memories” are borne of significant political and cultural differences.

    There is absolutely no chance Greeks and Armenians would come together with Turks unless it was like it was before, enforced subjection.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Agathoklis


    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence
     
    .

    All the "decolonization byproduct" nations whine a lot about how hard it was being under foreign control.



    Greeks and Armenians are no different, they whine about the Ottoman past because "muh subjugation ".

    But if you want to really know what subjugation is, then ask Spanish Muslims about how it felt after the Reconquista. That was subjugation for real, a subjugation into annihilation.

    Compared to this, the Ottoman Milliyet system was quite benign even before the Tanzimat. After the Tanzimat the statutes of the Dhimmi in Ottoman Empire were greatly liberalized becoming quite similar to the status of the Indians in the British Raj or Algerians under French colonization.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  183. @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    "Turks are a Mediterranean people fully compatible with their neighbors, with whom they co-existed for 500 years."

    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence.

    "If we remove the bad memories (you killed my gran gran grandpa and raped my gran gran grandma a.s.o), Greeks, Armenian and Turks have a lot in common. This is evident for any neutral outsider observer who is not part to their feuds."

    Unfortunately, this is what neutral outsiders do not understand, those so called "bad memories" are borne of significant political and cultural differences.

    There is absolutely no chance Greeks and Armenians would come together with Turks unless it was like it was before, enforced subjection.

    Replies: @Ano4

    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence

    .

    All the “decolonization byproduct” nations whine a lot about how hard it was being under foreign control.

    [MORE]

    Greeks and Armenians are no different, they whine about the Ottoman past because “muh subjugation “.

    But if you want to really know what subjugation is, then ask Spanish Muslims about how it felt after the Reconquista. That was subjugation for real, a subjugation into annihilation.

    Compared to this, the Ottoman Milliyet system was quite benign even before the Tanzimat. After the Tanzimat the statutes of the Dhimmi in Ottoman Empire were greatly liberalized becoming quite similar to the status of the Indians in the British Raj or Algerians under French colonization.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    Yes, of course Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!

    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey's destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924

    https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/96/1/247/5697493

    "They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else": A History of the Armenian Genocide

    https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691147307/they-can-live-in-the-desert-but-nowhere-else

    The Greek Genocide In American Naval War Diaries

    https://www.uno.edu/unopress/the-greek-genocide-in-american-naval-war-diaries

    Replies: @Ano4

  184. @Ano4
    @AaronB


    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone – I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy
     
    If Muslims were rational that is what would happen, but they are not. In the last decades Islam has grown stronger. It will continue growing stronger because these people need some spiritual solace and the more they are despised and dehumanized, the more they will cling to some memories of former Greatness. Besides, the West has not much to offer to the ones you call the Quixotic type and many of the young Muslims are exactly that.


    But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements – our current elites are very enamored of these traditions,
     
    Yes, but as the Cold War with and decoupling from China are getting momentum the "Oriental Spiritual Orientation" would be weakened in the West. OTOH the Dharmic revival will continue in the East. Quite possibly, in the future the Dharmic compatibility of the Advaita Vedanta and Cittamatra/Vijnanavada will bring Hinduism and Buddhism closer. It will take time, but eventually these two traditions might become a basis for a new Asian Spirituality distinct from Abrahamic Faiths, but even more universal and completely compatible with scientific progress.

    This is where the Kalachakra Tantra prophecy comes to mind: an Abrahamic Civilization confronting a Dharmic Civilization around 2400 CE.
    Tibetan Buddhists believe in it very strongly, if other Asian people adopt similar beliefs it is bound to happen.

    Orthodoxy – has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.
     
    This would certainly have happened if Russian Empire endured. But it was destroyed and probably one of the reasons it was destroyed was exactly the strength of the Russian Orthodox spirit. It was too strong to be manipulated towards a Globalized and rootless world system.

    That's why tens of millions of Russians have been genocided with a great enthusiasm by both the bloodthirsty Jewish commissars and the proud Nazi German übermenshen, while the West in general felt no tremors about these pesky Russkies dying.

    Now Russians are not strong enough anymore to save the world from the future catastrophic opposition between the Dharmic Asia and the Abrahamic West. Moreover, the line of demarcation between Dharmic and Abrahamic belief systems will pass right on the Russian territory. I believe Russia will end-up split in two with each of the two parts joining the opposite sides of the conflict.


    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts
     
    Alan would have wanted none of it. He was too smart to be a real Guru.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @anonymous coward

    Generally, a civilization based on violence always reaches an end point. Islam was based on conquest, but it’s last great age of conquest ended in the 17th century. Since then its been spinning its wheels. It’s turning its aggression inward, because it has no serious external outlets.

    To survive into the future, Islam will have to reinvent itself. The aggressive element is played out – if it persists, it will just self-destruct completely.

    Happened to Rome, to Europe, to Japan. Even Jews had to reinvent themselves after the Exile deprived them of a national home they could defend with arms.

    When a channel is blocked, water has to flow through a different channel. Or dry up.

    The types of people who are hard core Islamists today are not the idealistic Romantic types anymore – on this board, you have people like Talha, AnonStarter, Kevin Barret. They all seem mildly sociopathic – especially the superficially charming Talha, a noted sociopathic trait – and with anger management issues. Also grim and humorless. This is not the exuberant, idealistic type that sweeps all before it and leads a civilization to new heights and represents its best. They also seem boringly conservative, preoccupied with gays and what not instead of more exciting spiritual things. Conservatives never win.

    I think we are seeing the twilight of the Old Islam. And the new Islam – based on Sufism – will be a weak element in any new synthesis. Orthodox Christianity already has everything needed to be competitive in this new environment. Islam will also have a bad odor from its recent violent past.

    I don’t think the current animosity with China will lead to any rejection of Buddhism or Eastern spirituality in general – just as Christian animosity to Jews did not lead to rejection of the Bible. The French and British elites, for instance, were quite friendly throughout their wars.

    Also, the Esoteric traditions of the West are practically the same thing – just a question if semantics and expression.

    Alan Watts of course would not want disciples, true – but he won’t have a choice in the matter. Sadly, because when you institutionalize the Free Spirit – and that always happens – you kill it. All the great religious figures warn of this. Still, there will always be a few genuine Free Spirits.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Aaron, you can't handle the truth.

    A Jew is simply an Arab who has been kicked and pushed by the Whitey for some 2000 years. They chastised you to ensure your betterment and education. It resulted in you people having a little more sophistication than your Ishmaelite kin who kept their wild type phenotype in their backward deserts.

    Nevertheless, your wild Ishmaelite cousins are your Abrahamic best bet!

    I know they are not of the forgiving nature (it runs in your Abrahamic family) but I am an optimist and think you guys are smart enough to sort it out.

    https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/41c48e7b-0d89-403c-b3d0-6335da4d9c0c/fx1.jpg



    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31523-3/fulltext

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext#figures

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

    I told it before and will tell it again: Demographics is destiny.

    Also, those Red Jews shouldn't have killed the last Russian Tsar with his wife and their innocent children.

    The world would have been a better place today if he would have carried on building a pacified Eurasia and strengthening Orthodox influence.

    Everyone, Jews included, would have had a better future without Trotsky, Sverdlov, Lenin and the like destroying Russia.

    There wouldn't have been any Holocaust.

    And there wouldn't have been any Arab Israeli conflict either.

    But you children of Abraham do not understand that Karma is not only individual, but also collective.

    And so you keep making the same mistakes century after century.

    This is how stubborn you people are.

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

  185. @A123
    @Hyperborean

    "Gutmenschen"? Really?

    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.

    The German sheeple stand around waving Welcome Rape-ugee signs. Germans fully accept and embrace Muslim invaders raping underage German girls. Given the proven fact that the German sheeple 100% approve of Islamic paedophilia... what good would it do to complain about Nazlamic speech restrictions?

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel's depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel's threat to Christianity.

    Is that "heartfelt" enough for you?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Gerard-Mandela, @dfordoom

    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.

    You can’t recreate the past. Christendom is not coming back.

    • Replies: @Excal
    @dfordoom

    The past doesn't come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  186. @Ano4
    @Agathoklis


    You must be out of your mind. I would not call the enforced subordinate status of the Christians in the Ottoman Empire as co-existence
     
    .

    All the "decolonization byproduct" nations whine a lot about how hard it was being under foreign control.



    Greeks and Armenians are no different, they whine about the Ottoman past because "muh subjugation ".

    But if you want to really know what subjugation is, then ask Spanish Muslims about how it felt after the Reconquista. That was subjugation for real, a subjugation into annihilation.

    Compared to this, the Ottoman Milliyet system was quite benign even before the Tanzimat. After the Tanzimat the statutes of the Dhimmi in Ottoman Empire were greatly liberalized becoming quite similar to the status of the Indians in the British Raj or Algerians under French colonization.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Yes, of course Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!

    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey’s destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924

    https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/96/1/247/5697493

    “They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else”: A History of the Armenian Genocide

    https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691147307/they-can-live-in-the-desert-but-nowhere-else

    The Greek Genocide In American Naval War Diaries

    https://www.uno.edu/unopress/the-greek-genocide-in-american-naval-war-diaries

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Agathoklis


    Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!
     
    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn't fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn't fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies. Why should the Greeks and Armenians fare any better under the Turks?



    Oh wait, but they did fare better: the poor Dhimmi Phanariot Greeks ruled Romania for the Turks (Quislings much) and were the core of Istanbul business community for centuries after the conquest only to be rivaled by the Armenians who spread to Syria, Lebanon and Cilicia and traded as far as China and Tibet (not a joke, they really traded as far as Tibet in the XVI century).


    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey’s destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924
     
    That only happened when the Ottoman Empire reached its nadir. And frankly, Belgians massacred in Congo, French massacred in Algeria, and again I fail to see why Armenians and Greeks should have been spared harsh treatment from their Turkish overlords while they conspired with Russian and British to destroy the Empire and fought against Turkish rule arms in hand (Greek independence war and Armenian Dashnaks).

    Interestingly enough, many of the worst incidents of mass killings and abuse have been committed by Kurdish mercenaries in the Ottoman service and Albanian troops. Never heard Armenians and Greeks complain about Kurds and Albanians being evil bloodthirsty monsters.

    The worst massacres against Armenians and the expulsion of Phanariote Greeks happened after the Ottoman Empire demise under the Young Turks. Those Westernizers that have transformed the Hagia Sophia into a museum are the ones who have committed the worst massacres. But Westernizers always do, just ask Native Americans.

    Bottom line, it was hard, it hurt, but now more than a century later it is time to move over. Learn to live with your neighbors because they are here to stay.

    Unless Greeks and Armenians want to try fighting the Turks just to prove a point. Perhaps this is the plan, like the current situation in Karabakh. But frankly, I don't think it is such a good idea.

    Replies: @AP

  187. @Simplepseudonymichandle
    @Excal

    I think if you better understood it you'd know this is kind of like the Orthodox Christian Temple Mount and the mosque is like the Dome of the Rock. It's really not a small matter although it would be a lot easier for Turkey's Muslim's to do the People of the Book a solid and retreat to the Blue Mosque, than for Muslims writ large to give up the Dome of the Rock.

    Replies: @Excal

    I certainly do have some idea how painful this must be for Orthodox. But that pain began in 1453, when the Hagia Sophia ceased to be a church; I do not see why their pain over this would have begun only last week. (In fact it might be noted that Roman Catholics have been in pain over this building for far longer, but never mind.)

    Ataturk made it a museum, which is a little better than a mosque perhaps, but it is hardly a church. It was the property of the Turks then, and they could always have done with it what they liked; and so now they have. Does anyone seriously think that there has ever been the remotest chance that the Turks would have made it into a church again, while they still owned it? It would cause a civil war. They are just as likely to rename Istanbul back to Constantinople.

    There is something quite poetic, and tragic, about all this. Ataturk was part of the wave of enlightened republicanism which swept over the world in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. But no matter how beautiful and strong it may have looked then, republicanism was never strong enough to withstand the ages. It is at last crumbling away in Turkey, just as it now is in the rest of the world. Like everything human, it was always destined for the dust.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Excal

    Orthodox Church are correct to try and resist this as emphatically as they can, but the facts are that plenty of the great western Cathedrals do exactly this - conduct active services, whilst also being open to tours/museum visits that are shielded off from the services if they are run at the same time, or just close tourists visits during this time.

    Of course it's impossible to run alternate Islamic and orthodox services there so this decision is reasonable and in line with many examples around the world.

    Turkey treats us Russians, many millions of us each year, very well, it's tourist driven economy deserves the respect to make people think this move can work as they say it will, preserving all of both religions heritage in it.

    Plenty of formerly beautiful churches in the west have been converted into nightclubs or bars....this decision by Erdogan is hardly a disaster

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  188. @Ano4
    @AaronB


    I think Islam will undergo a contraction and diminishment similar to what the Christian world has undergone – I think it is spiritually very sick, and its current behavior suggests internal exhaustion and bankruptcy
     
    If Muslims were rational that is what would happen, but they are not. In the last decades Islam has grown stronger. It will continue growing stronger because these people need some spiritual solace and the more they are despised and dehumanized, the more they will cling to some memories of former Greatness. Besides, the West has not much to offer to the ones you call the Quixotic type and many of the young Muslims are exactly that.


    But it will surely have strong Buddhist and Eastern elements – our current elites are very enamored of these traditions,
     
    Yes, but as the Cold War with and decoupling from China are getting momentum the "Oriental Spiritual Orientation" would be weakened in the West. OTOH the Dharmic revival will continue in the East. Quite possibly, in the future the Dharmic compatibility of the Advaita Vedanta and Cittamatra/Vijnanavada will bring Hinduism and Buddhism closer. It will take time, but eventually these two traditions might become a basis for a new Asian Spirituality distinct from Abrahamic Faiths, but even more universal and completely compatible with scientific progress.

    This is where the Kalachakra Tantra prophecy comes to mind: an Abrahamic Civilization confronting a Dharmic Civilization around 2400 CE.
    Tibetan Buddhists believe in it very strongly, if other Asian people adopt similar beliefs it is bound to happen.

    Orthodoxy – has its heyschast, monk, monastery, and wandering Fool for God tradition, which has clear analogues in Eastern traditions and which will position it to be influential in the new synthesis.
     
    This would certainly have happened if Russian Empire endured. But it was destroyed and probably one of the reasons it was destroyed was exactly the strength of the Russian Orthodox spirit. It was too strong to be manipulated towards a Globalized and rootless world system.

    That's why tens of millions of Russians have been genocided with a great enthusiasm by both the bloodthirsty Jewish commissars and the proud Nazi German übermenshen, while the West in general felt no tremors about these pesky Russkies dying.

    Now Russians are not strong enough anymore to save the world from the future catastrophic opposition between the Dharmic Asia and the Abrahamic West. Moreover, the line of demarcation between Dharmic and Abrahamic belief systems will pass right on the Russian territory. I believe Russia will end-up split in two with each of the two parts joining the opposite sides of the conflict.


    In the end, we will become disciples of Alan Watts
     
    Alan would have wanted none of it. He was too smart to be a real Guru.

    😄

    Replies: @AaronB, @anonymous coward

    Dharmic Asia

    You’re nuts if you think China is somehow “Dharmic”.

    …and the Abrahamic West

    There is no common ground between Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Christianity is much closer to e.g., Chinese traditional religion than the gnostic Satan-worship of the Jews and Muslims. (Except for Twelver Shia, they’re insane but at least they’re pointed in the right direction.)

    • Troll: Ano4
  189. @Agathoklis
    "Turkish-Islamic civilizational vigor"

    Very unlikely.

    Despite Erdogan's baby boom campaign, the number of births in Turkey dropped by 3.6% to 1.248 million in 2018 versus 1.295 million in 2017. The overall fertility rate fell to 1.99 from 2.07, meaning Turkey is now reproducing below the replacement rate. Those numbers include very high fertility 20 million Kurds. Sunni Turk fertility levels are probably more like 1.6-1.7.

    Another example, is that a recent survey found that even conservative, pro-Erdoğan youths have no faith in either their own country or other Islamic countries. SODEV, a Turkish foundation, asked young people between the ages of 15 and 25 whether they would live abroad if given the chance. Almost half (47.3%) of those youths who said they supported Erdogan's AKP said they preferred to live abroad. Half of Erdogan's youth have no faith in Turkey’s future. SODEV also asked pro-Erdogan (pro-AKP) young people whether they would rather live in Switzerland on $5,000 per month or in Saudi Arabia on $10,000 per month. As many as 60.5% of them said they would prefer Switzerland.

    Turkey may seem vigorous but its actions are driven by an increasingly narrow Islamic elite and rural mercantile population which has increasingly relied on debt (often short term external debt) to sustain their growth.

    Replies: @Passer by, @jay

    The Kurds seem to be doing very well. But I think the Leftist ideology influence will suppress that.

  190. @dfordoom
    @A123


    The only option is to write off Mullah Merkel’s depraved caliphate. NATO should be dissolved and replaced with a new Christian European Treaty Organization dedicated to surrounding, containing, and eradicating Mullah Merkel’s threat to Christianity.
     
    You can't recreate the past. Christendom is not coming back.

    Replies: @Excal

    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Excal


    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.
     
    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It's not so much that we've entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It's a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @anonymous coward, @AP, @Excal

  191. @Excal
    @dfordoom

    The past doesn't come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.

    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It’s not so much that we’ve entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It’s a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    @dfordoom


    Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.
     
    What is progressivism-wokism-liberalism if not a religion? Although I'd call it a suicide cult.

    I disagree, if anything in the future there will be new religions, as well as temporary belief fads (UFOs, witches, elves, whatever)

    Also, I think we overestimate the grade in which Science and materialism can really become a worldview. Most people understand little about science and technology (it's like magic), and they'll continue to believe in crazy stuff, and need rituals, etc.
    , @anonymous coward
    @dfordoom


    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face.
     
    a) The world of the late Roman Empire before the barbarian invasions was very much secular and modernist.

    b) What we have today is in no way secularism and modernism. We're living in a world where bargain-bin Gnosticism is the official state religion.
    , @AP
    @dfordoom


    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.
     
    True to a certain extent of theistic religions. But not true of non-theistic ones such as some forms of Buddhism and, in the West, various Marxist heresies. Belief in God is not being replaced by some sort of "objective" secular "scientisism" but by wokism and/or Earth-worship complete with dogmas, rituals, self-sacrifice, etc. as other religions have. They are actually more ignorant of and hostile to science than traditional Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) has been and basically reflect weird Protestant sects in their science denialism.

    Russia, which was brutally subjected to an early form of the Marxism virus, is so far showing some "immunity" towards the latest forms of "white privilege" Marxism and is experiencing a bit of a revival in theistic religions. There also seems to be a some progress in China, with growing numbers of theistic believers. These countries underwent the ordeal of the first wave and have achieved something of a herd immunity, while the West, having having avoided the first wave, is victim to the strong second wave.

    , @Excal
    @dfordoom


    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.
     
    No guide at all? Two thousand years of continuous attacks from every side, plus astonishing levels of internal incompetence, heresy, and corruption -- and it's still standing not merely as a set of ideas, but as a continuously operating institution? How many human institutions have survived even half so long under far easier conditions?

    Perhaps now we're at last witnessing the final blow -- the one that will finally finish it off! Though I wouldn't put everything on that bet. Whatever finally does for Christianity will have to be really, really spectacular.

    Watch: when Christianity looks finished, utterly done for, dead and gone -- turn around, blink, and you will see it alive again, smiling, stronger than ever. It takes after its Founder that way.

    It’s not so much that we’ve entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world.
     
    This has been said so many times through the centuries that it is a bit surprising that it hasn't come true ever, even once, even temporarily.

    It certainly isn't what's happening now. Religion is more powerful today than it's ever been, and its influence is only growing. The religions of socialism and atheism are certainly doing quite well at the moment.

    "But those aren't religions!", you say? I say that if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it might just be a duck. The worship of man is no less a religion than the worship of God (even if it always collapses into worship of the devil).
  192. @TomDickHarry
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    If there is any mass converting, anywhere, it will be only the pagan polytheist mangods-worshippers converting to the religion of pure unbending monotheism... Islam!!

    God willing!

    Replies: @Dumbo

    Said the Mohammed-worshipper…

    Yeah, technically Mohammed is not a demigod, but in practice… He’s worshipped as one. You have to write pbuh, can’t draw him, 90% of muzzles are called Mohammed or some variation thereof. No, thanks. No Arab religion for me.

  193. @Mr. Hack
    @Hyperborean

    That's really too bad. I always found German Reader's responses here quite well measured and rational, with no malice being exhibited to anybody. Could it be that he's not being specifically singled out, but only by the act of commenting at this blog, that's been undergoing further censorship elsewhere, that he feels that he's being monitored?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    That’s really too bad. I always found German Reader’s responses here quite well measured and rational, with no malice being exhibited to anybody. Could it be that he’s not being specifically singled out, but only by the act of commenting at this blog, that’s been undergoing further censorship elsewhere, that he feels that he’s being monitored?

    Private individuals and entities can flag content, essentially big fodder for various types of activists.

  194. @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    This is actually an extremely accurate description of American white Protestant culture lol.

    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.

    My thesis is that the white Western intellectual class tried to reform this culture through movements like Romanticism - but they failed. The ideals of Thoreau and Emerson did not take root in America, and the ideals of Blake and Wordsworth did not take root in England.

    In desperation, white Western intellectual elites are now destroying Western culture root and branch, the good and the bad together. Because this culture failed at producing happiness. It has lived past its time. Figures like Elon Musk no longer contribute to human happiness.

    On the other hand, if you made a similar list for modern China it would be quite horrifically worse. Or the modern Islamic world. So what choice do we have but to support America and the West?

    Thanks for posting this.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.

    Right, but this is a state museum for blacks, I don’t think the state teaching them that things like cause and effect, delayed gratification, politeness, hard work, time management, respect for property and authority, and proper English are haram will have any positive effect on them.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    I agree.

    The total destruction of our civilization is extremely harsh medicine. It should not have been necessary. Romantic themes and ideals should have been gently introduced into the culture to balance out and moderate the achievement-oriented, scientific culture that had developed.

    An English author - C.P Snow or something like that? - mid last century introduced the concept of "two cultures" in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.

    He thought at the time that they were increasingly incomprehensible to each other and being driven further apart, with the scientific culture likely to dominate.

    Science began in the 17th century, and the Romantic criticism of the new materialistic culture emerged the following century. What was supposed to happen was that the scientific culture would be balanced and softened by Romanticism, and a more whole and balanced culture emerge. But that didn't happen.

    Instead, the two cultures grew increasingly hostile and apart. By mid last century, scientific culture completely dominated and drove out Romanticism.

    But Romanticism did not die, just made a comeback in a more extreme form. Romantics now understood that it was war to the death. There could be no accommodation with the scientific culture - one would destroy the other.

    The xenophilia of our times is a major theme of Romanticism. The Romantics all fled to exotic locales and championed exotic cultures. They tried to promote the aesthetic, emotional, and spiritual virtues of cultures that had not yet embraced the scientific mindset.

    So there is nothing new here. The fight between the two cultures is just in its final stage - and it is the materialistic scientific culture that is now being defeated.

    The tragedy is that the Romantic had failed in softening and balancing out scientific culture. In reality, the two cultures are not supposed to be enemies - they are supposed to exist in fruitful harmony. Achievement is important, but so is fun. Creating is important, but so is enjoying what you create. Reason enables you to secure life, but what is the point of that if your emotional and aesthetic life is undeveloped and you cannot enjoy living.

    The tragedy of the West is that two natural human attitudes to life which should exist together to make a whole human being, got separated and started fighting each other. But since the scientific culture tried to eradicate Romanticism, tried to eradicate the emotional, aesthetic, and spiritual realms, and substitute a life devoid of the emotions, Romanticism had to destroy it.

    Because emotions are primary - if you war on them, as science did, you will lose. Emotions are the bedrock of life - the whole point of living is to feel good in the many ways possible to us.

    When science tried to eradicate emotion, it sealed its own fate.

    But after this, hopefully a new synthesis will arise where emotion and science are not in opposition. Good comes out if the ashes.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Hyperborean

  195. @dfordoom
    @Excal


    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.
     
    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It's not so much that we've entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It's a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @anonymous coward, @AP, @Excal

    Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    What is progressivism-wokism-liberalism if not a religion? Although I’d call it a suicide cult.

    I disagree, if anything in the future there will be new religions, as well as temporary belief fads (UFOs, witches, elves, whatever)

    Also, I think we overestimate the grade in which Science and materialism can really become a worldview. Most people understand little about science and technology (it’s like magic), and they’ll continue to believe in crazy stuff, and need rituals, etc.

    • Agree: Ano4
  196. @Hyperborean
    @AaronB


    There is much that is noble and good in it, but much that I think makes clear why people are frustrated and fed up with it. It is extremely stifling and materialistic, harsh and competitive.
     
    Right, but this is a state museum for blacks, I don't think the state teaching them that things like cause and effect, delayed gratification, politeness, hard work, time management, respect for property and authority, and proper English are haram will have any positive effect on them.

    Replies: @AaronB

    I agree.

    The total destruction of our civilization is extremely harsh medicine. It should not have been necessary. Romantic themes and ideals should have been gently introduced into the culture to balance out and moderate the achievement-oriented, scientific culture that had developed.

    An English author – C.P Snow or something like that? – mid last century introduced the concept of “two cultures” in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.

    He thought at the time that they were increasingly incomprehensible to each other and being driven further apart, with the scientific culture likely to dominate.

    Science began in the 17th century, and the Romantic criticism of the new materialistic culture emerged the following century. What was supposed to happen was that the scientific culture would be balanced and softened by Romanticism, and a more whole and balanced culture emerge. But that didn’t happen.

    Instead, the two cultures grew increasingly hostile and apart. By mid last century, scientific culture completely dominated and drove out Romanticism.

    But Romanticism did not die, just made a comeback in a more extreme form. Romantics now understood that it was war to the death. There could be no accommodation with the scientific culture – one would destroy the other.

    The xenophilia of our times is a major theme of Romanticism. The Romantics all fled to exotic locales and championed exotic cultures. They tried to promote the aesthetic, emotional, and spiritual virtues of cultures that had not yet embraced the scientific mindset.

    So there is nothing new here. The fight between the two cultures is just in its final stage – and it is the materialistic scientific culture that is now being defeated.

    The tragedy is that the Romantic had failed in softening and balancing out scientific culture. In reality, the two cultures are not supposed to be enemies – they are supposed to exist in fruitful harmony. Achievement is important, but so is fun. Creating is important, but so is enjoying what you create. Reason enables you to secure life, but what is the point of that if your emotional and aesthetic life is undeveloped and you cannot enjoy living.

    The tragedy of the West is that two natural human attitudes to life which should exist together to make a whole human being, got separated and started fighting each other. But since the scientific culture tried to eradicate Romanticism, tried to eradicate the emotional, aesthetic, and spiritual realms, and substitute a life devoid of the emotions, Romanticism had to destroy it.

    Because emotions are primary – if you war on them, as science did, you will lose. Emotions are the bedrock of life – the whole point of living is to feel good in the many ways possible to us.

    When science tried to eradicate emotion, it sealed its own fate.

    But after this, hopefully a new synthesis will arise where emotion and science are not in opposition. Good comes out if the ashes.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AaronB

    If you analyze this through Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, science is primarily concerned with the lower rungs if the ladder - surviving and securing life.

    But the value of surviving is that you enjoy life - which is the province of the emotions. Once life is secured you move on to higher rungs on the hierarchy of needs. What happened in European culture is one rung of Maslow's attacked another!

    The lowest level, the level of survival, represented by science, did not understand that its purpose was to make way for higher levels. That it existed as part of a nested hierarchy - that science derived its importance from securing life for the purpose of joy.

    Instead, the lowest perspective - that of survival - wanted to dominate over all other perspectives and destroy them. Life was supposed to be entirely about survival and securing life. Man was to remain forever stuck on the lowest level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

    This was surely one of the strangest movements in the history of the human spirit!

    I actually see on a day to day basis people stuck on the lowest level of Maslow's Hierarchy - people who think the point of life is to make more and more money, and people who think technology should be pursued to the neglect of everything else. Such people are stuck in survival mode, and they can't see beyond it.

    The Covid panic - far in excess of the actual dangers - is a natural reaction of a scientific society trapped on the lowest level of mans hierarchy of needs.

    , @Hyperborean
    @AaronB


    An English author – C.P Snow or something like that? – mid last century introduced the concept of “two cultures” in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.
     
    That sounds like the Apollonian-Dionysian dichotomy, I wouldn't say he introduced this concept.

    The Covid panic – far in excess of the actual dangers – is a natural reaction of a scientific society trapped on the lowest level of mans hierarchy of needs.
     
    I guess you disagree with Karlin's view regarding the newfound subhumanity of the Anglosphere and Russian-Europeans?

    Replies: @AaronB

  197. @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    I agree.

    The total destruction of our civilization is extremely harsh medicine. It should not have been necessary. Romantic themes and ideals should have been gently introduced into the culture to balance out and moderate the achievement-oriented, scientific culture that had developed.

    An English author - C.P Snow or something like that? - mid last century introduced the concept of "two cultures" in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.

    He thought at the time that they were increasingly incomprehensible to each other and being driven further apart, with the scientific culture likely to dominate.

    Science began in the 17th century, and the Romantic criticism of the new materialistic culture emerged the following century. What was supposed to happen was that the scientific culture would be balanced and softened by Romanticism, and a more whole and balanced culture emerge. But that didn't happen.

    Instead, the two cultures grew increasingly hostile and apart. By mid last century, scientific culture completely dominated and drove out Romanticism.

    But Romanticism did not die, just made a comeback in a more extreme form. Romantics now understood that it was war to the death. There could be no accommodation with the scientific culture - one would destroy the other.

    The xenophilia of our times is a major theme of Romanticism. The Romantics all fled to exotic locales and championed exotic cultures. They tried to promote the aesthetic, emotional, and spiritual virtues of cultures that had not yet embraced the scientific mindset.

    So there is nothing new here. The fight between the two cultures is just in its final stage - and it is the materialistic scientific culture that is now being defeated.

    The tragedy is that the Romantic had failed in softening and balancing out scientific culture. In reality, the two cultures are not supposed to be enemies - they are supposed to exist in fruitful harmony. Achievement is important, but so is fun. Creating is important, but so is enjoying what you create. Reason enables you to secure life, but what is the point of that if your emotional and aesthetic life is undeveloped and you cannot enjoy living.

    The tragedy of the West is that two natural human attitudes to life which should exist together to make a whole human being, got separated and started fighting each other. But since the scientific culture tried to eradicate Romanticism, tried to eradicate the emotional, aesthetic, and spiritual realms, and substitute a life devoid of the emotions, Romanticism had to destroy it.

    Because emotions are primary - if you war on them, as science did, you will lose. Emotions are the bedrock of life - the whole point of living is to feel good in the many ways possible to us.

    When science tried to eradicate emotion, it sealed its own fate.

    But after this, hopefully a new synthesis will arise where emotion and science are not in opposition. Good comes out if the ashes.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Hyperborean

    If you analyze this through Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, science is primarily concerned with the lower rungs if the ladder – surviving and securing life.

    But the value of surviving is that you enjoy life – which is the province of the emotions. Once life is secured you move on to higher rungs on the hierarchy of needs. What happened in European culture is one rung of Maslow’s attacked another!

    The lowest level, the level of survival, represented by science, did not understand that its purpose was to make way for higher levels. That it existed as part of a nested hierarchy – that science derived its importance from securing life for the purpose of joy.

    Instead, the lowest perspective – that of survival – wanted to dominate over all other perspectives and destroy them. Life was supposed to be entirely about survival and securing life. Man was to remain forever stuck on the lowest level of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.

    This was surely one of the strangest movements in the history of the human spirit!

    I actually see on a day to day basis people stuck on the lowest level of Maslow’s Hierarchy – people who think the point of life is to make more and more money, and people who think technology should be pursued to the neglect of everything else. Such people are stuck in survival mode, and they can’t see beyond it.

    The Covid panic – far in excess of the actual dangers – is a natural reaction of a scientific society trapped on the lowest level of mans hierarchy of needs.

  198. @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    I agree.

    The total destruction of our civilization is extremely harsh medicine. It should not have been necessary. Romantic themes and ideals should have been gently introduced into the culture to balance out and moderate the achievement-oriented, scientific culture that had developed.

    An English author - C.P Snow or something like that? - mid last century introduced the concept of "two cultures" in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.

    He thought at the time that they were increasingly incomprehensible to each other and being driven further apart, with the scientific culture likely to dominate.

    Science began in the 17th century, and the Romantic criticism of the new materialistic culture emerged the following century. What was supposed to happen was that the scientific culture would be balanced and softened by Romanticism, and a more whole and balanced culture emerge. But that didn't happen.

    Instead, the two cultures grew increasingly hostile and apart. By mid last century, scientific culture completely dominated and drove out Romanticism.

    But Romanticism did not die, just made a comeback in a more extreme form. Romantics now understood that it was war to the death. There could be no accommodation with the scientific culture - one would destroy the other.

    The xenophilia of our times is a major theme of Romanticism. The Romantics all fled to exotic locales and championed exotic cultures. They tried to promote the aesthetic, emotional, and spiritual virtues of cultures that had not yet embraced the scientific mindset.

    So there is nothing new here. The fight between the two cultures is just in its final stage - and it is the materialistic scientific culture that is now being defeated.

    The tragedy is that the Romantic had failed in softening and balancing out scientific culture. In reality, the two cultures are not supposed to be enemies - they are supposed to exist in fruitful harmony. Achievement is important, but so is fun. Creating is important, but so is enjoying what you create. Reason enables you to secure life, but what is the point of that if your emotional and aesthetic life is undeveloped and you cannot enjoy living.

    The tragedy of the West is that two natural human attitudes to life which should exist together to make a whole human being, got separated and started fighting each other. But since the scientific culture tried to eradicate Romanticism, tried to eradicate the emotional, aesthetic, and spiritual realms, and substitute a life devoid of the emotions, Romanticism had to destroy it.

    Because emotions are primary - if you war on them, as science did, you will lose. Emotions are the bedrock of life - the whole point of living is to feel good in the many ways possible to us.

    When science tried to eradicate emotion, it sealed its own fate.

    But after this, hopefully a new synthesis will arise where emotion and science are not in opposition. Good comes out if the ashes.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Hyperborean

    An English author – C.P Snow or something like that? – mid last century introduced the concept of “two cultures” in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.

    That sounds like the Apollonian-Dionysian dichotomy, I wouldn’t say he introduced this concept.

    The Covid panic – far in excess of the actual dangers – is a natural reaction of a scientific society trapped on the lowest level of mans hierarchy of needs.

    I guess you disagree with Karlin’s view regarding the newfound subhumanity of the Anglosphere and Russian-Europeans?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Hyperborean


    I guess you disagree with Karlin’s view regarding the newfound subhumanity of the Anglosphere and Russian-Europeans
     
    Lol.

    I like Karlin, but his primary orientation is technological, and thus he sees the world primarily from the point of view of how to survive and how to secure life - not how to enjoy life or increase joy.

    Such a person will naturally be prone to a particular kind of irrational panic.

    It also comes down to cognitive distortion - if you are extremely preoccupied with survival, you will be prone to overestimate risk. Even small risks will loom extremely large in your imagination. Its like people preoccupied with racism, even innocuous actions seem laden with racist overtones.

    So people who ascribe extremely high importance to something are likely to have cognitive distortions with regard to it. Its why Eastern spiritual practices say that you cannot accurately perceived something unless you are detached.

    One cannot properly estimate risk unless one is somewhat detached from survival....and that is the last thing that can be said about our society.

  199. @Agathoklis
    @Ano4

    Yes, of course Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!

    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey's destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924

    https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/96/1/247/5697493

    "They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else": A History of the Armenian Genocide

    https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691147307/they-can-live-in-the-desert-but-nowhere-else

    The Greek Genocide In American Naval War Diaries

    https://www.uno.edu/unopress/the-greek-genocide-in-american-naval-war-diaries

    Replies: @Ano4

    Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!

    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies. Why should the Greeks and Armenians fare any better under the Turks?

    [MORE]

    Oh wait, but they did fare better: the poor Dhimmi Phanariot Greeks ruled Romania for the Turks (Quislings much) and were the core of Istanbul business community for centuries after the conquest only to be rivaled by the Armenians who spread to Syria, Lebanon and Cilicia and traded as far as China and Tibet (not a joke, they really traded as far as Tibet in the XVI century).

    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey’s destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924

    That only happened when the Ottoman Empire reached its nadir. And frankly, Belgians massacred in Congo, French massacred in Algeria, and again I fail to see why Armenians and Greeks should have been spared harsh treatment from their Turkish overlords while they conspired with Russian and British to destroy the Empire and fought against Turkish rule arms in hand (Greek independence war and Armenian Dashnaks).

    Interestingly enough, many of the worst incidents of mass killings and abuse have been committed by Kurdish mercenaries in the Ottoman service and Albanian troops. Never heard Armenians and Greeks complain about Kurds and Albanians being evil bloodthirsty monsters.

    The worst massacres against Armenians and the expulsion of Phanariote Greeks happened after the Ottoman Empire demise under the Young Turks. Those Westernizers that have transformed the Hagia Sophia into a museum are the ones who have committed the worst massacres. But Westernizers always do, just ask Native Americans.

    Bottom line, it was hard, it hurt, but now more than a century later it is time to move over. Learn to live with your neighbors because they are here to stay.

    Unless Greeks and Armenians want to try fighting the Turks just to prove a point. Perhaps this is the plan, like the current situation in Karabakh. But frankly, I don’t think it is such a good idea.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies.
     
    Setting aside the mass death form epidemics (which were not deliberate) the Spanish influence on Latin America was on balance very good, particularly in Mexico and Central America where a religious culture based on genocidal human-sacrifice, that literally worshipped demons, was transformed into a decent and civilized semi-European one with beautiful and sophisticated music and architecture, mass literacy, familiar concepts of human rights, etc. Mexico of 1800, for all of its shortcomings, was far superior for its people than Mexico of 1500.

    Music from 17th century Mexico:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZParkjE-KMw

    100 years before this was composed and played in newly-built beautiful cathedrals, the people were ripping beating hearts out of sacrifical victims on crude pyramids, before alters of demon-gods:

    https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/back.png

    Bolivia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV1GcuiMZH4

    Music from early 18th century Peru:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA


    AK wrote about pre-Spanish Americas:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/skulls-for-the-skull-throne/

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Muslim conquerors tended not to elevate, but to destroy or degrade beautiful places and cultures. Islam was the Communism of the first millennium.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm

  200. @Priss Factor
    Still, is it so bad that a Cathedral turned into a Mosque? Muslims are pious people.

    In contrast, the churches in Ireland went globo-homo. They were turned into homosques.

    It seems the same fate awaits Poland. Young ones are all into globo-homo, pornification, and diversity, especially Afro-worship. Do Poles even realize that these are proxies of Jewish Power?

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/poland-right-andrzej-duda-pyrrhic-victory/

    Rod Dreher laments the fall of religion, but the problem with the Right is their creative laziness in relying on tradition. While religion and tradition must have their place, the future can only be secured by new vision and imagination. As insipid as globo-homo and BLM are, they have confidence, passion, energy, and restless vibrancy. They buzz with excitement. In contrast, reliance on faith is about solemnity, which is good but not winning with restless youth.

    What can capture the hearts and minds of restless youth in the digital age?

    That's what matters. There must be a place for religion, but the Right need and should not rely mainly on religion for its support.

    Replies: @another anon, @jbwilson24, @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan, @Jake

    You sound exactly like a Jew playing the role of Jew-blamer to keep the system as is.

    The only thing that terrifies those many bad Jews is also the only thing that terrifies the many white Gentiles who have sold their patrimony for a culturally suicidal mess of pottage: the revival of Christendom.

    It is either Christ and Christendom or Chaos.

  201. Russia would have re-taken Constantinople in the 19th century if not for England allying with Turks to save their empire.

    Of course, anybody but a damned fool (like the VDARE crowd) could see that at least by the dawn of Victorianism that WASP Empire is Anglo-Zionist Empire. And Jews, through money and counsel, have always used Islam as a battering force to destroy anything that even hints at Christendom. Therefore the Anglo-Zionist Empire had to save the Ottoman Empire – and then the Anglo-Zionists could win The Great Game.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Jake

    From Gladstone


    "I deeply deplore the manner in which, what I may call Judaic sympathies, beyond as well as within the circle of professed Judaism, are now acting on the question of the East'.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

  202. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Generally, a civilization based on violence always reaches an end point. Islam was based on conquest, but it's last great age of conquest ended in the 17th century. Since then its been spinning its wheels. It's turning its aggression inward, because it has no serious external outlets.

    To survive into the future, Islam will have to reinvent itself. The aggressive element is played out - if it persists, it will just self-destruct completely.

    Happened to Rome, to Europe, to Japan. Even Jews had to reinvent themselves after the Exile deprived them of a national home they could defend with arms.

    When a channel is blocked, water has to flow through a different channel. Or dry up.

    The types of people who are hard core Islamists today are not the idealistic Romantic types anymore - on this board, you have people like Talha, AnonStarter, Kevin Barret. They all seem mildly sociopathic - especially the superficially charming Talha, a noted sociopathic trait - and with anger management issues. Also grim and humorless. This is not the exuberant, idealistic type that sweeps all before it and leads a civilization to new heights and represents its best. They also seem boringly conservative, preoccupied with gays and what not instead of more exciting spiritual things. Conservatives never win.

    I think we are seeing the twilight of the Old Islam. And the new Islam - based on Sufism - will be a weak element in any new synthesis. Orthodox Christianity already has everything needed to be competitive in this new environment. Islam will also have a bad odor from its recent violent past.

    I don't think the current animosity with China will lead to any rejection of Buddhism or Eastern spirituality in general - just as Christian animosity to Jews did not lead to rejection of the Bible. The French and British elites, for instance, were quite friendly throughout their wars.

    Also, the Esoteric traditions of the West are practically the same thing - just a question if semantics and expression.

    Alan Watts of course would not want disciples, true - but he won't have a choice in the matter. Sadly, because when you institutionalize the Free Spirit - and that always happens - you kill it. All the great religious figures warn of this. Still, there will always be a few genuine Free Spirits.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Aaron, you can’t handle the truth.

    A Jew is simply an Arab who has been kicked and pushed by the Whitey for some 2000 years. They chastised you to ensure your betterment and education. It resulted in you people having a little more sophistication than your Ishmaelite kin who kept their wild type phenotype in their backward deserts.

    Nevertheless, your wild Ishmaelite cousins are your Abrahamic best bet!

    I know they are not of the forgiving nature (it runs in your Abrahamic family) but I am an optimist and think you guys are smart enough to sort it out.

    [MORE]

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31523-3/fulltext

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext#figures

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

    I told it before and will tell it again: Demographics is destiny.

    Also, those Red Jews shouldn’t have killed the last Russian Tsar with his wife and their innocent children.

    The world would have been a better place today if he would have carried on building a pacified Eurasia and strengthening Orthodox influence.

    Everyone, Jews included, would have had a better future without Trotsky, Sverdlov, Lenin and the like destroying Russia.

    There wouldn’t have been any Holocaust.

    And there wouldn’t have been any Arab Israeli conflict either.

    But you children of Abraham do not understand that Karma is not only individual, but also collective.

    And so you keep making the same mistakes century after century.

    This is how stubborn you people are.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Lol, I think you're too stuck in the past and don't have a sufficiently dynamic view of history. And I think you're too focused on genetics and not enough on culture and intangibles - a common enough failing in these parts, and I suppose you're quite upfront about it with your quote demographics is destiny. Although that is usually applied to groups as they are now, and not to predict group relations today based on ancient origins.

    Groups from a common genetic source can develop really different cultures and can really diverge in their long term development. Someone here pointed out Greeks and Turks. I might point out Anglo-Saxons and Germans. There are a million examples. Even Cavaliers and Puritans, within a single nation, represent opposite spiritual types, making their shared generics irrelevant. Any genetic group is composed of nations within nations.

    I wouldn't necessarily call Jews Arabs (not that there's anything wrong with that), but they are certainly Levantine.

    Oh, I'm sure the Muslims will eventually accept us - but first the religion will have to reinvent itself as about something other than conquest. And since the Muslim world today cannot conquer anything anymore, they will find new outlets for their energies. Already its happening.

    As for Russia, that wasn't primarily a Jewish led thing, or a Jewish motivated thing, although Jews were heavily involved. Whether the Revolution was necessary is always a hard question to answer - is today's revolution against scientific culture really necessary? Won't it bring a lot of suffering?

    Yes, but then the Romantics had tried to reform that culture for 200 years without success, and with the scientific war on emotion winning almost completely, making life empty and sterile.

    There were many good and wonderful things about the old Tzarist world, many things worth saving. But we also know there were many, many horrors, and it obviously failed to provide a happy way of life to millions of discontented people.

    Ideally, the Tzarist world should have been improved with reform. But I wasn't there at the time, so I don't know how things seemed to people.

    The Revolution was definitely a tragedy and many great things were lost forever.

    Replies: @Ano4

  203. @Jake
    Russia would have re-taken Constantinople in the 19th century if not for England allying with Turks to save their empire.

    Of course, anybody but a damned fool (like the VDARE crowd) could see that at least by the dawn of Victorianism that WASP Empire is Anglo-Zionist Empire. And Jews, through money and counsel, have always used Islam as a battering force to destroy anything that even hints at Christendom. Therefore the Anglo-Zionist Empire had to save the Ottoman Empire - and then the Anglo-Zionists could win The Great Game.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    From Gladstone

    “I deeply deplore the manner in which, what I may call Judaic sympathies, beyond as well as within the circle of professed Judaism, are now acting on the question of the East’.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Kent Nationalist


    From Gladstone
     
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53007083

    He will be cancelled.
  204. @Kent Nationalist
    @Jake

    From Gladstone


    "I deeply deplore the manner in which, what I may call Judaic sympathies, beyond as well as within the circle of professed Judaism, are now acting on the question of the East'.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    From Gladstone

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53007083

    He will be cancelled.

  205. @Hyperborean
    @AaronB


    An English author – C.P Snow or something like that? – mid last century introduced the concept of “two cultures” in the Western world, one scientific and materialistic, the other aesthetic and spiritual.
     
    That sounds like the Apollonian-Dionysian dichotomy, I wouldn't say he introduced this concept.

    The Covid panic – far in excess of the actual dangers – is a natural reaction of a scientific society trapped on the lowest level of mans hierarchy of needs.
     
    I guess you disagree with Karlin's view regarding the newfound subhumanity of the Anglosphere and Russian-Europeans?

    Replies: @AaronB

    I guess you disagree with Karlin’s view regarding the newfound subhumanity of the Anglosphere and Russian-Europeans

    Lol.

    I like Karlin, but his primary orientation is technological, and thus he sees the world primarily from the point of view of how to survive and how to secure life – not how to enjoy life or increase joy.

    Such a person will naturally be prone to a particular kind of irrational panic.

    It also comes down to cognitive distortion – if you are extremely preoccupied with survival, you will be prone to overestimate risk. Even small risks will loom extremely large in your imagination. Its like people preoccupied with racism, even innocuous actions seem laden with racist overtones.

    So people who ascribe extremely high importance to something are likely to have cognitive distortions with regard to it. Its why Eastern spiritual practices say that you cannot accurately perceived something unless you are detached.

    One cannot properly estimate risk unless one is somewhat detached from survival….and that is the last thing that can be said about our society.

  206. @dfordoom
    @Excal


    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.
     
    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It's not so much that we've entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It's a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @anonymous coward, @AP, @Excal

    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face.

    a) The world of the late Roman Empire before the barbarian invasions was very much secular and modernist.

    b) What we have today is in no way secularism and modernism. We’re living in a world where bargain-bin Gnosticism is the official state religion.

  207. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Aaron, you can't handle the truth.

    A Jew is simply an Arab who has been kicked and pushed by the Whitey for some 2000 years. They chastised you to ensure your betterment and education. It resulted in you people having a little more sophistication than your Ishmaelite kin who kept their wild type phenotype in their backward deserts.

    Nevertheless, your wild Ishmaelite cousins are your Abrahamic best bet!

    I know they are not of the forgiving nature (it runs in your Abrahamic family) but I am an optimist and think you guys are smart enough to sort it out.

    https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/41c48e7b-0d89-403c-b3d0-6335da4d9c0c/fx1.jpg



    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31523-3/fulltext

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext#figures

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

    I told it before and will tell it again: Demographics is destiny.

    Also, those Red Jews shouldn't have killed the last Russian Tsar with his wife and their innocent children.

    The world would have been a better place today if he would have carried on building a pacified Eurasia and strengthening Orthodox influence.

    Everyone, Jews included, would have had a better future without Trotsky, Sverdlov, Lenin and the like destroying Russia.

    There wouldn't have been any Holocaust.

    And there wouldn't have been any Arab Israeli conflict either.

    But you children of Abraham do not understand that Karma is not only individual, but also collective.

    And so you keep making the same mistakes century after century.

    This is how stubborn you people are.

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

    Lol, I think you’re too stuck in the past and don’t have a sufficiently dynamic view of history. And I think you’re too focused on genetics and not enough on culture and intangibles – a common enough failing in these parts, and I suppose you’re quite upfront about it with your quote demographics is destiny. Although that is usually applied to groups as they are now, and not to predict group relations today based on ancient origins.

    Groups from a common genetic source can develop really different cultures and can really diverge in their long term development. Someone here pointed out Greeks and Turks. I might point out Anglo-Saxons and Germans. There are a million examples. Even Cavaliers and Puritans, within a single nation, represent opposite spiritual types, making their shared generics irrelevant. Any genetic group is composed of nations within nations.

    I wouldn’t necessarily call Jews Arabs (not that there’s anything wrong with that), but they are certainly Levantine.

    Oh, I’m sure the Muslims will eventually accept us – but first the religion will have to reinvent itself as about something other than conquest. And since the Muslim world today cannot conquer anything anymore, they will find new outlets for their energies. Already its happening.

    As for Russia, that wasn’t primarily a Jewish led thing, or a Jewish motivated thing, although Jews were heavily involved. Whether the Revolution was necessary is always a hard question to answer – is today’s revolution against scientific culture really necessary? Won’t it bring a lot of suffering?

    Yes, but then the Romantics had tried to reform that culture for 200 years without success, and with the scientific war on emotion winning almost completely, making life empty and sterile.

    There were many good and wonderful things about the old Tzarist world, many things worth saving. But we also know there were many, many horrors, and it obviously failed to provide a happy way of life to millions of discontented people.

    Ideally, the Tzarist world should have been improved with reform. But I wasn’t there at the time, so I don’t know how things seemed to people.

    The Revolution was definitely a tragedy and many great things were lost forever.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    I guess we will agree to disagree then.

    But let's hope we both live long enough (112 years as the saying goes) to see how it all unfolds.

    Things change fast: have a look at the links I provided, it is quite remarkable.

    Also look at Berzin's writings about the Kalachakra Tantra.

    https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/history-culture/buddhism-islam/holy-wars-in-buddhism-and-islam

    Have a good one.

    Shalom aleichem.

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

  208. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Lol, I think you're too stuck in the past and don't have a sufficiently dynamic view of history. And I think you're too focused on genetics and not enough on culture and intangibles - a common enough failing in these parts, and I suppose you're quite upfront about it with your quote demographics is destiny. Although that is usually applied to groups as they are now, and not to predict group relations today based on ancient origins.

    Groups from a common genetic source can develop really different cultures and can really diverge in their long term development. Someone here pointed out Greeks and Turks. I might point out Anglo-Saxons and Germans. There are a million examples. Even Cavaliers and Puritans, within a single nation, represent opposite spiritual types, making their shared generics irrelevant. Any genetic group is composed of nations within nations.

    I wouldn't necessarily call Jews Arabs (not that there's anything wrong with that), but they are certainly Levantine.

    Oh, I'm sure the Muslims will eventually accept us - but first the religion will have to reinvent itself as about something other than conquest. And since the Muslim world today cannot conquer anything anymore, they will find new outlets for their energies. Already its happening.

    As for Russia, that wasn't primarily a Jewish led thing, or a Jewish motivated thing, although Jews were heavily involved. Whether the Revolution was necessary is always a hard question to answer - is today's revolution against scientific culture really necessary? Won't it bring a lot of suffering?

    Yes, but then the Romantics had tried to reform that culture for 200 years without success, and with the scientific war on emotion winning almost completely, making life empty and sterile.

    There were many good and wonderful things about the old Tzarist world, many things worth saving. But we also know there were many, many horrors, and it obviously failed to provide a happy way of life to millions of discontented people.

    Ideally, the Tzarist world should have been improved with reform. But I wasn't there at the time, so I don't know how things seemed to people.

    The Revolution was definitely a tragedy and many great things were lost forever.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I guess we will agree to disagree then.

    But let’s hope we both live long enough (112 years as the saying goes) to see how it all unfolds.

    Things change fast: have a look at the links I provided, it is quite remarkable.

    Also look at Berzin’s writings about the Kalachakra Tantra.

    https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/history-culture/buddhism-islam/holy-wars-in-buddhism-and-islam

    Have a good one.

    Shalom aleichem.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Yes, time will tell.

    I've heard of the Kalachakra Tantra - I'll check it out, thanks. Although I'm not sure how much credence ill give it.

    Interesting times lie ahead, that's for sure.

    Take care.

    Shalom.

  209. @Ano4
    @Kent Nationalist

    From where I stand, from a purely historical perspective, all three Abrahamic religions look similar in their tendency to force themselves onto the populations that have fallen under their control. This is the norm for the Abrahamic Monotheisms: assert dominance by any means available. Be meek if you have to, act violently if you must.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    As opposed to other religions which spread through… what? Something more “organic” than force? Because you just have a fondness for the noble savage myth? Or you genuinely believe that other religions weren’t compulsory before “Abrahamic” (idiot term) religions wrecked everyone’s good time? All religions (including, and especially, secular tolerance) are and always have been compulsory, from a purely historical perspective you sound like a teenager on r/atheism.

    But since you’ve made the asinine comparison between the three “Abrahamic” religions, it only takes a minute to see how full of utter crap you are. Islam has spread almost exclusively through conquest (even in the “core” islamic world of the near east and North Africa), whereas Christianity has spread primarily through conversion (almost exclusively through conversion outside of the Americas, and no, Kings converting isn’t conquest). Talmudism hasn’t spread much outside of the Jewish diaspora at all, so I don’t even know what you mean to say there, other than that religious Jews who gain power follow their religion? Meaningless statement if so, would apply to anyone, regardless of what one thinks of the particulars of jewish influence.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Yawn...I am done comments on the Abrahamic beliefsystems. It is quite boring a topic regardless of what their respective spiritual fanclub members think.

    In the long run, one way or another mankind either goes extinct or gets to the Omega Point. Given the latest developments, the culling of a large portion of the human herds is the most probable outcome their religious affiliation notwithstanding. Humans are simply too selfish a species to get to the next level of civilization that is needed to ensure their long lasting survival.



    Arguing about it is pointless.

    I would better listen to a good song instead:

    https://youtu.be/3H17jOoanE4

    And here are the lyrics:

    Down comes Moses with the Ten Commandments
    Hewn on a tablet, just the bitterest pill
    Breaks up the party in the valley below
    Says obey my orders and you're doing God's will

    And disciples of Jesus, lost and forgotten
    When the brand new faith isn't doing so well
    Write the Book of Revelation to terrify the people
    Join our religion or you're heading for hell

    Ch: I will bow to the earth, bow to the sea,
    Bow to the love between you and me,
    Bow to the sun, bow to the land
    But never to a god made in the image of man

    Here comes Mohammed, back from the desert
    Another male prophet with the word of the Lord
    Shut off the women, lock them in darkness
    Kill all opponents in a holy war

    Here is murder, here is oppression
    Here is the order that the Church demands
    Burn three million women, call them witches and heretics
    Then change the tune when the fashion demands

    How they run to you now, how they grovel to you now
    I think they're mad
    How they subjugate their pride as if it's a sin to be alive
    I think that's sad

    Down with Moses and his Ten Commandments
    Deader than deadest of the Dead Sea Scrolls
    Back to the desert with Jesus and Mohammed
    Kick out the prophets and save our souls

    😄

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Eastern religions, especially the most native ones such as ancestral worship and Shintoism did not go on wars of conversion at all; Ano4 is demonstrating more knowledge on this rather than less. Western fondness for "evangelism" is something that that Confucians have been almost lamblasting for eons, with some but not total accuracy.

    Obviously from a neutral standpoint, all of the major religions are indeed evangelical. It is evolutionary in that sense; religions that seek to propagate themselves replace religions and faith systems that do not. This is true even of Buddhism, of which there are major sections which believe in "saving the world" through universal Buddhism such as in Mahayana Buddhism.

    As such, it began to ultimately manifest many of the other features of powerful religion: wealth(Inexhaustible Treasuries held by monasteries), power(Righteous Armies, Shaolin Academy, etc), and politics(lamas, gurus, etc). It is generally less violent, but really quite fervent considering the historical fondness of suicide as a form of religion participation(self-mummification, self-burning, etc).

    Replies: @Ano4

  210. AP says:
    @dfordoom
    @Excal


    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.
     
    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It's not so much that we've entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It's a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @anonymous coward, @AP, @Excal

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    True to a certain extent of theistic religions. But not true of non-theistic ones such as some forms of Buddhism and, in the West, various Marxist heresies. Belief in God is not being replaced by some sort of “objective” secular “scientisism” but by wokism and/or Earth-worship complete with dogmas, rituals, self-sacrifice, etc. as other religions have. They are actually more ignorant of and hostile to science than traditional Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) has been and basically reflect weird Protestant sects in their science denialism.

    Russia, which was brutally subjected to an early form of the Marxism virus, is so far showing some “immunity” towards the latest forms of “white privilege” Marxism and is experiencing a bit of a revival in theistic religions. There also seems to be a some progress in China, with growing numbers of theistic believers. These countries underwent the ordeal of the first wave and have achieved something of a herd immunity, while the West, having having avoided the first wave, is victim to the strong second wave.

  211. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    I guess we will agree to disagree then.

    But let's hope we both live long enough (112 years as the saying goes) to see how it all unfolds.

    Things change fast: have a look at the links I provided, it is quite remarkable.

    Also look at Berzin's writings about the Kalachakra Tantra.

    https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/history-culture/buddhism-islam/holy-wars-in-buddhism-and-islam

    Have a good one.

    Shalom aleichem.

    🙂

    Replies: @AaronB

    Yes, time will tell.

    I’ve heard of the Kalachakra Tantra – I’ll check it out, thanks. Although I’m not sure how much credence ill give it.

    Interesting times lie ahead, that’s for sure.

    Take care.

    Shalom.

  212. @Gerard-Mandela
    @A123


    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.
     
    LOL.....Hungary I can accept, to include the Polish people in that is cretinous. Poland is the biggest prostitute state there is, millions of them living in Germany ( and UK), giving absolutely nothing good in return, the country is basically semi-nice Warsaw and Krakow with the rest of it basically being Albania.

    It has such abysmal cultural achievement over 500 years for such a relatively big European country....the chances are that this post I am writing now is superior to any cultural success obtained by a Pole, ever.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Amiga

    Gerard’s Pole bashing is far superior to his Ukraine hate.

  213. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Ano4

    As opposed to other religions which spread through... what? Something more "organic" than force? Because you just have a fondness for the noble savage myth? Or you genuinely believe that other religions weren't compulsory before "Abrahamic" (idiot term) religions wrecked everyone's good time? All religions (including, and especially, secular tolerance) are and always have been compulsory, from a purely historical perspective you sound like a teenager on r/atheism.

    But since you've made the asinine comparison between the three "Abrahamic" religions, it only takes a minute to see how full of utter crap you are. Islam has spread almost exclusively through conquest (even in the "core" islamic world of the near east and North Africa), whereas Christianity has spread primarily through conversion (almost exclusively through conversion outside of the Americas, and no, Kings converting isn't conquest). Talmudism hasn't spread much outside of the Jewish diaspora at all, so I don't even know what you mean to say there, other than that religious Jews who gain power follow their religion? Meaningless statement if so, would apply to anyone, regardless of what one thinks of the particulars of jewish influence.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Daniel Chieh

    Yawn…I am done comments on the Abrahamic beliefsystems. It is quite boring a topic regardless of what their respective spiritual fanclub members think.

    In the long run, one way or another mankind either goes extinct or gets to the Omega Point. Given the latest developments, the culling of a large portion of the human herds is the most probable outcome their religious affiliation notwithstanding. Humans are simply too selfish a species to get to the next level of civilization that is needed to ensure their long lasting survival.

    [MORE]

    Arguing about it is pointless.

    I would better listen to a good song instead:

    And here are the lyrics:

    Down comes Moses with the Ten Commandments
    Hewn on a tablet, just the bitterest pill
    Breaks up the party in the valley below
    Says obey my orders and you’re doing God’s will

    And disciples of Jesus, lost and forgotten
    When the brand new faith isn’t doing so well
    Write the Book of Revelation to terrify the people
    Join our religion or you’re heading for hell

    Ch: I will bow to the earth, bow to the sea,
    Bow to the love between you and me,
    Bow to the sun, bow to the land
    But never to a god made in the image of man

    Here comes Mohammed, back from the desert
    Another male prophet with the word of the Lord
    Shut off the women, lock them in darkness
    Kill all opponents in a holy war

    Here is murder, here is oppression
    Here is the order that the Church demands
    Burn three million women, call them witches and heretics
    Then change the tune when the fashion demands

    How they run to you now, how they grovel to you now
    I think they’re mad
    How they subjugate their pride as if it’s a sin to be alive
    I think that’s sad

    Down with Moses and his Ten Commandments
    Deader than deadest of the Dead Sea Scrolls
    Back to the desert with Jesus and Mohammed
    Kick out the prophets and save our souls

    😄

  214. AP says:
    @Ano4
    @Agathoklis


    Ottoman subjection was just one big happy party!
     
    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn't fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn't fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies. Why should the Greeks and Armenians fare any better under the Turks?



    Oh wait, but they did fare better: the poor Dhimmi Phanariot Greeks ruled Romania for the Turks (Quislings much) and were the core of Istanbul business community for centuries after the conquest only to be rivaled by the Armenians who spread to Syria, Lebanon and Cilicia and traded as far as China and Tibet (not a joke, they really traded as far as Tibet in the XVI century).


    The thirty-year genocide: Turkey’s destruction of its Christian minorities 1894–1924
     
    That only happened when the Ottoman Empire reached its nadir. And frankly, Belgians massacred in Congo, French massacred in Algeria, and again I fail to see why Armenians and Greeks should have been spared harsh treatment from their Turkish overlords while they conspired with Russian and British to destroy the Empire and fought against Turkish rule arms in hand (Greek independence war and Armenian Dashnaks).

    Interestingly enough, many of the worst incidents of mass killings and abuse have been committed by Kurdish mercenaries in the Ottoman service and Albanian troops. Never heard Armenians and Greeks complain about Kurds and Albanians being evil bloodthirsty monsters.

    The worst massacres against Armenians and the expulsion of Phanariote Greeks happened after the Ottoman Empire demise under the Young Turks. Those Westernizers that have transformed the Hagia Sophia into a museum are the ones who have committed the worst massacres. But Westernizers always do, just ask Native Americans.

    Bottom line, it was hard, it hurt, but now more than a century later it is time to move over. Learn to live with your neighbors because they are here to stay.

    Unless Greeks and Armenians want to try fighting the Turks just to prove a point. Perhaps this is the plan, like the current situation in Karabakh. But frankly, I don't think it is such a good idea.

    Replies: @AP

    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies.

    Setting aside the mass death form epidemics (which were not deliberate) the Spanish influence on Latin America was on balance very good, particularly in Mexico and Central America where a religious culture based on genocidal human-sacrifice, that literally worshipped demons, was transformed into a decent and civilized semi-European one with beautiful and sophisticated music and architecture, mass literacy, familiar concepts of human rights, etc. Mexico of 1800, for all of its shortcomings, was far superior for its people than Mexico of 1500.

    Music from 17th century Mexico:

    100 years before this was composed and played in newly-built beautiful cathedrals, the people were ripping beating hearts out of sacrifical victims on crude pyramids, before alters of demon-gods:

    Bolivia:

    Music from early 18th century Peru:

    AK wrote about pre-Spanish Americas:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/skulls-for-the-skull-throne/

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Muslim conquerors tended not to elevate, but to destroy or degrade beautiful places and cultures. Islam was the Communism of the first millennium.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    I have never said that colonialism had only negative effects, my opinion is quite the opposite.

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.

    One has to give credit where the credit is due...

    🙂

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Even more "Good News" is evident in the mass movement of "Mayan Orthodoxy" within Guatemala and Southern Mexico, as this ancient Christian church is finding deep roots in the Central and South American countryside. This new (old) faith has been unraveling for several years now:

    https://youtu.be/Glk2OrfVMCQ

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Dmitry
    @AP


    Music from early 18th century
     
    What is special about this music that means it could not be produced in Spain by the same recipe? And from around early 18th century forward?

    Such harmonies you can hear in the composition like "I V I V I V", are like a stereotype of this epoch in Spain and Italy. You could organize music students to compose this work, using just recipes from 18th century Spain.

    Aside from a few great geniuses, most music of that time was only intended as not especially complicated background music, and the content is according to recipe.

    Similarly rhythm, melodies and arrangement - it is all in Spain at that time. This is late Baroque music from Spain, with no particular feature to the South American region.

    So, in South America they could produce music according to the same methods popular in Europe, but you could do that anywhere, to an extent instruments, musicians and musical formulas of the time could be transported across the oceans. It doesn't say anything about an original culture that emerges in South America.

    -

    As for pre-Columbian music in South America. I do not know it well. But it would be more interesting to preserve it, as it would likely be different to the European music of this epoch, and therefore offer us something we don't know from European music.

    -

    South American music we listen to today, emerged later, although it also relies to a significant extent on continuing of influences of the other side of the Atlantic ocean. It is mostly influenced by thing like habanera and also has many influences from rhythms influenced by West African dancers.

    It's an interesting question to ask when the different kinds of "South American sounds" we listen to have emerged. By the late 19th century, there are already very distinctive "South American sounding" compositions in countries like Brazil and Argentina.

    For example, a lot of popular "bar room" piano music by late 19th century Brazilian composers, already sounds like some distinctive "Brazil".

    , @EldnahYm
    @AP

    Mexico is still a highly violent place though. No human sacrifice anymore, but Mexico's cities are ranked among the most violent in the world.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

  215. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Ano4

    As opposed to other religions which spread through... what? Something more "organic" than force? Because you just have a fondness for the noble savage myth? Or you genuinely believe that other religions weren't compulsory before "Abrahamic" (idiot term) religions wrecked everyone's good time? All religions (including, and especially, secular tolerance) are and always have been compulsory, from a purely historical perspective you sound like a teenager on r/atheism.

    But since you've made the asinine comparison between the three "Abrahamic" religions, it only takes a minute to see how full of utter crap you are. Islam has spread almost exclusively through conquest (even in the "core" islamic world of the near east and North Africa), whereas Christianity has spread primarily through conversion (almost exclusively through conversion outside of the Americas, and no, Kings converting isn't conquest). Talmudism hasn't spread much outside of the Jewish diaspora at all, so I don't even know what you mean to say there, other than that religious Jews who gain power follow their religion? Meaningless statement if so, would apply to anyone, regardless of what one thinks of the particulars of jewish influence.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Daniel Chieh

    Eastern religions, especially the most native ones such as ancestral worship and Shintoism did not go on wars of conversion at all; Ano4 is demonstrating more knowledge on this rather than less. Western fondness for “evangelism” is something that that Confucians have been almost lamblasting for eons, with some but not total accuracy.

    Obviously from a neutral standpoint, all of the major religions are indeed evangelical. It is evolutionary in that sense; religions that seek to propagate themselves replace religions and faith systems that do not. This is true even of Buddhism, of which there are major sections which believe in “saving the world” through universal Buddhism such as in Mahayana Buddhism.

    As such, it began to ultimately manifest many of the other features of powerful religion: wealth(Inexhaustible Treasuries held by monasteries), power(Righteous Armies, Shaolin Academy, etc), and politics(lamas, gurus, etc). It is generally less violent, but really quite fervent considering the historical fondness of suicide as a form of religion participation(self-mummification, self-burning, etc).

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    I agree that Buddhism also has some craziness about it. But given that it is empirical psychology (or perhaps psychiatry?) parading as a belief system, it is still useful for the understanding of the human mind and the theory of consciousness. Buddhists have done a great job exploring our mind space.

  216. @Peter Akuleyev
    @Felix Keverich

    Not to mention Samara, Saratov, Rostov, Ingushetia, and Ufa. Islam is the religion of the future in Russia.

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Philip Owen

    Islam is the cult of subhumans, and I’d like to think that Russia’s future is better, than that.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
  217. @AP
    @Ano4


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies.
     
    Setting aside the mass death form epidemics (which were not deliberate) the Spanish influence on Latin America was on balance very good, particularly in Mexico and Central America where a religious culture based on genocidal human-sacrifice, that literally worshipped demons, was transformed into a decent and civilized semi-European one with beautiful and sophisticated music and architecture, mass literacy, familiar concepts of human rights, etc. Mexico of 1800, for all of its shortcomings, was far superior for its people than Mexico of 1500.

    Music from 17th century Mexico:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZParkjE-KMw

    100 years before this was composed and played in newly-built beautiful cathedrals, the people were ripping beating hearts out of sacrifical victims on crude pyramids, before alters of demon-gods:

    https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/back.png

    Bolivia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV1GcuiMZH4

    Music from early 18th century Peru:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA


    AK wrote about pre-Spanish Americas:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/skulls-for-the-skull-throne/

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Muslim conquerors tended not to elevate, but to destroy or degrade beautiful places and cultures. Islam was the Communism of the first millennium.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm

    I have never said that colonialism had only negative effects, my opinion is quite the opposite.

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.

    One has to give credit where the credit is due…

    🙂

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4

    I was responding to your comment -


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America
     
    Other than for a genocidal sadist, Mexico after colonization is a lot more fun, including for the "colonized," than Mexico before the conquest. (I'm assuming you were thinking of all of Latin America when you typed South America, but the Incas while not as over the top as the Aztecs weren't very mild either).

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.
     
    Sure, that may be an exception, although I am unfamiliar with pre-Islamic Indian history. Islam ruined Egypt, Constantinople, Persia, etc. India may have been better before Islam, also.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Ano4, @RSDB

  218. @Daniel Chieh
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Eastern religions, especially the most native ones such as ancestral worship and Shintoism did not go on wars of conversion at all; Ano4 is demonstrating more knowledge on this rather than less. Western fondness for "evangelism" is something that that Confucians have been almost lamblasting for eons, with some but not total accuracy.

    Obviously from a neutral standpoint, all of the major religions are indeed evangelical. It is evolutionary in that sense; religions that seek to propagate themselves replace religions and faith systems that do not. This is true even of Buddhism, of which there are major sections which believe in "saving the world" through universal Buddhism such as in Mahayana Buddhism.

    As such, it began to ultimately manifest many of the other features of powerful religion: wealth(Inexhaustible Treasuries held by monasteries), power(Righteous Armies, Shaolin Academy, etc), and politics(lamas, gurus, etc). It is generally less violent, but really quite fervent considering the historical fondness of suicide as a form of religion participation(self-mummification, self-burning, etc).

    Replies: @Ano4

    I agree that Buddhism also has some craziness about it. But given that it is empirical psychology (or perhaps psychiatry?) parading as a belief system, it is still useful for the understanding of the human mind and the theory of consciousness. Buddhists have done a great job exploring our mind space.

    • Agree: AP, Daniel Chieh, Mr. Hack
  219. @AP
    @Ano4


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies.
     
    Setting aside the mass death form epidemics (which were not deliberate) the Spanish influence on Latin America was on balance very good, particularly in Mexico and Central America where a religious culture based on genocidal human-sacrifice, that literally worshipped demons, was transformed into a decent and civilized semi-European one with beautiful and sophisticated music and architecture, mass literacy, familiar concepts of human rights, etc. Mexico of 1800, for all of its shortcomings, was far superior for its people than Mexico of 1500.

    Music from 17th century Mexico:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZParkjE-KMw

    100 years before this was composed and played in newly-built beautiful cathedrals, the people were ripping beating hearts out of sacrifical victims on crude pyramids, before alters of demon-gods:

    https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/back.png

    Bolivia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV1GcuiMZH4

    Music from early 18th century Peru:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA


    AK wrote about pre-Spanish Americas:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/skulls-for-the-skull-throne/

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Muslim conquerors tended not to elevate, but to destroy or degrade beautiful places and cultures. Islam was the Communism of the first millennium.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm

    Even more “Good News” is evident in the mass movement of “Mayan Orthodoxy” within Guatemala and Southern Mexico, as this ancient Christian church is finding deep roots in the Central and South American countryside. This new (old) faith has been unraveling for several years now:

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    More information about how Orthodoxy has taken root in Guatemala:

    https://youtu.be/4Qg26Yy2lqI

    http://www.mayanorthodoxy.com/media

  220. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Even more "Good News" is evident in the mass movement of "Mayan Orthodoxy" within Guatemala and Southern Mexico, as this ancient Christian church is finding deep roots in the Central and South American countryside. This new (old) faith has been unraveling for several years now:

    https://youtu.be/Glk2OrfVMCQ

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    More information about how Orthodoxy has taken root in Guatemala:

    http://www.mayanorthodoxy.com/media

  221. AP says:
    @Ano4
    @AP

    I have never said that colonialism had only negative effects, my opinion is quite the opposite.

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.

    One has to give credit where the credit is due...

    🙂

    Replies: @AP

    I was responding to your comment –

    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America

    Other than for a genocidal sadist, Mexico after colonization is a lot more fun, including for the “colonized,” than Mexico before the conquest. (I’m assuming you were thinking of all of Latin America when you typed South America, but the Incas while not as over the top as the Aztecs weren’t very mild either).

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.

    Sure, that may be an exception, although I am unfamiliar with pre-Islamic Indian history. Islam ruined Egypt, Constantinople, Persia, etc. India may have been better before Islam, also.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AP

    India was definitely better before Islam!

    The Muslims destroyed the beautiful and thriving Buddhist universities, destroying many priceless texts and setting the religion back centuries.

    The architecture left by the Muslims in India is beautiful. I have seen it and it is amazing. But how much of it is Muslim? It is really pre-Muslim Persian and Indian in influence.

    And the version of Islam that developed in India was before modern times heavily syncretic and influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism - especially in Kashmir, which had many Hindu-Sufi saints.

    Indian Islam became the most attractive version of the religion because it was a hybrid-Islam. Modern times sadly changed all this.

    But certainly overall the Muslim conquest was a tragedy for India.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Ano4
    @AP

    https://agakhanmuseum.org/programs/islamic-architecture-past-to-present

    , @RSDB
    @AP

    The Taj Mahal is not actually a mosque although there is a mosque on the grounds.

  222. @AP
    @Ano4

    I was responding to your comment -


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America
     
    Other than for a genocidal sadist, Mexico after colonization is a lot more fun, including for the "colonized," than Mexico before the conquest. (I'm assuming you were thinking of all of Latin America when you typed South America, but the Incas while not as over the top as the Aztecs weren't very mild either).

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.
     
    Sure, that may be an exception, although I am unfamiliar with pre-Islamic Indian history. Islam ruined Egypt, Constantinople, Persia, etc. India may have been better before Islam, also.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Ano4, @RSDB

    India was definitely better before Islam!

    The Muslims destroyed the beautiful and thriving Buddhist universities, destroying many priceless texts and setting the religion back centuries.

    The architecture left by the Muslims in India is beautiful. I have seen it and it is amazing. But how much of it is Muslim? It is really pre-Muslim Persian and Indian in influence.

    And the version of Islam that developed in India was before modern times heavily syncretic and influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism – especially in Kashmir, which had many Hindu-Sufi saints.

    Indian Islam became the most attractive version of the religion because it was a hybrid-Islam. Modern times sadly changed all this.

    But certainly overall the Muslim conquest was a tragedy for India.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, A123
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Buddhism in India was already in decline before the Islamic conquest.

    The main reason for this decline was the resurgence of the Vedic Brahmanism.

    Buddhism in Central Asia was greatly weakened by the Hephtalite/White Huns (Spenta Huna).

    Muslims finished off what Beahmins and Mithraists have severely degraded and weakened.

    And it took them 300 - 400 years to finish of Buddhadharma in the Greater India and Khorassan despite the strong assistance they received from the Brahmin.

    Sometimes, Muslims were more tolerant towards Buddhadharma than the Brahmin. It was notoriously the case in Nava Vihara which was connected to the Abbasid Vizier Barmakid family whose ancestors were titular lords of Balkh and Nava Vihara in pre-Islamic times.

    At other times Muslims were outright destructive, as in the case of Nalanda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

  223. @Excal
    @Simplepseudonymichandle

    I certainly do have some idea how painful this must be for Orthodox. But that pain began in 1453, when the Hagia Sophia ceased to be a church; I do not see why their pain over this would have begun only last week. (In fact it might be noted that Roman Catholics have been in pain over this building for far longer, but never mind.)

    Ataturk made it a museum, which is a little better than a mosque perhaps, but it is hardly a church. It was the property of the Turks then, and they could always have done with it what they liked; and so now they have. Does anyone seriously think that there has ever been the remotest chance that the Turks would have made it into a church again, while they still owned it? It would cause a civil war. They are just as likely to rename Istanbul back to Constantinople.

    There is something quite poetic, and tragic, about all this. Ataturk was part of the wave of enlightened republicanism which swept over the world in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. But no matter how beautiful and strong it may have looked then, republicanism was never strong enough to withstand the ages. It is at last crumbling away in Turkey, just as it now is in the rest of the world. Like everything human, it was always destined for the dust.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Orthodox Church are correct to try and resist this as emphatically as they can, but the facts are that plenty of the great western Cathedrals do exactly this – conduct active services, whilst also being open to tours/museum visits that are shielded off from the services if they are run at the same time, or just close tourists visits during this time.

    Of course it’s impossible to run alternate Islamic and orthodox services there so this decision is reasonable and in line with many examples around the world.

    Turkey treats us Russians, many millions of us each year, very well, it’s tourist driven economy deserves the respect to make people think this move can work as they say it will, preserving all of both religions heritage in it.

    Plenty of formerly beautiful churches in the west have been converted into nightclubs or bars….this decision by Erdogan is hardly a disaster

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Gerard-Mandela

    You launch elliptical, vulgar, repetitive and generally incoherent against Ukrainians, Poles and Balts but Turks is where you decide to be "reasonable"?

    You should kept your sex change, it would have been more honest.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Gerard-Mandela

  224. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Excal

    Orthodox Church are correct to try and resist this as emphatically as they can, but the facts are that plenty of the great western Cathedrals do exactly this - conduct active services, whilst also being open to tours/museum visits that are shielded off from the services if they are run at the same time, or just close tourists visits during this time.

    Of course it's impossible to run alternate Islamic and orthodox services there so this decision is reasonable and in line with many examples around the world.

    Turkey treats us Russians, many millions of us each year, very well, it's tourist driven economy deserves the respect to make people think this move can work as they say it will, preserving all of both religions heritage in it.

    Plenty of formerly beautiful churches in the west have been converted into nightclubs or bars....this decision by Erdogan is hardly a disaster

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    You launch elliptical, vulgar, repetitive and generally incoherent against Ukrainians, Poles and Balts but Turks is where you decide to be “reasonable”?

    You should kept your sex change, it would have been more honest.

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Hyperborean


    and generally incoherent against Ukrainians
     
    You give me no other option but to reproduce this masterpiece of a comment:

    1. Is there even a city/town/village named after a “Ukrainian” place from the sadist Banderetard community in North America? Of course not. There is only the Novorossiyan areas and Kiev that have expatriated place names.i.e from the Russian world. You have got places in America named after Moscow, Saint Petersburg( Florida), plenty called Odessa, Kazan, Kiev……where is the ukrop place?….none ,because there has never been such a country. In 200 years of immigration to the “New World” there would be such names if such a country existed….which it does not

    2. Did you even see the video that I linked you cretin- a load of ukrainian “top” officials..and not a single one speaking “Ukrainian”. I forgot that Turchynov was acting president..he might be even worse than Avakov in speaking it

    3. There is no such thing as “Ukrainian nation” and certainly not this concept called “Ukrainophobia”. There is no “Ukrainianism” in the North American community…merely anti-Russianism, that is more than willing to destroy the fake ” old country” of Ukraine, again and again in pursuit of it, in their sick sadist minds

    4. What there is though is Russian world, Russian people , of which Ukraine was and is a very important part for the last millennium. It has it’s different flavour of Russianian – just like in North Russia, Belarus,Siberia, South Russia- but it’s still undeniably Russian. Texans and New Yorkers and Californians have big differences in styles, food, dialect, lifestyle- bit they are all still undeniably Americans and could never be mistaken for anything else.For Russia/Ukraine this same point is a million times closer - clearly we are the same people

    5. LOL “Ukrainian” words are so non-existent that the minuscule ones that are out there are basically cultural symbols or events in themselves in Russia! You see it in Runet all the time. Ironically using the very few Ukrop fews out there in some viral/meme thing taking the p*ss out of the latest tragi-comic thing to come out of Ukraine. Even for ukrop nationalists these small number of "Ukrainian" words are like cultural symbols. Does that strike you as being the characteristics of a proper language? Of course not

    6. It’s nauseating for the UPA vermin community in North America to even claim to be Ukrainian. UPA was/is a sick cult– their flag was red for the “Blood lost by Ukrainians”, and Black for the rich black Earth. Seeing as practically all these UPA trash had absolutely zero connection to any of this “blood” lost over the centuries or these wars, and Galicia is the least Black soil part of Ukropia (most of these UPA trash would have lived in areas with zero of it)…what we have are sadistic CIA smuggled expats descended from an already pseudo-expat community (Galicia) claiming on some imaginary cultural heritage! WTF

    7. Even for this stupid habit of anglicizing words in Russian that are not exclusively US/UK invented technology or cultural terms…Ukrainian follows the exact same pattern as Russia (well, directly after Russia). Seeing as most science, cultural, technology and everything else in “Ukrainian” is a Russian created word – this further emphasises my point

    8. It gets even worse – the top sadist Ukrop historian, leading their Institute of National Memory (or whatever this nonsense is called)……the main guy until recently was the POS called Viatrovich. Barely in his mid-30’s. Where had he just spent 5 years of his infant career? In US , LOL, in this same Harvard Ukrainian Institute BS! Just some Soros-funded , lying trash . It’s inexcusable . An actual nation would have had people available to lead it who had spent 30+ years researching IN UKRAINE.

    9. With Yandex restricted in Ukraine, I checked what the top Googled terms were - naturally, there were more Russians ( and Jews) than Ukrainians in the top 10 list
    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @Hyperborean

    Turkey has easily done the same, or maybe even more, than Poland and the Baltics to deserve to join the EU. It hasn't had the parasite free money handed to it like Poland

    It's immigrants in the west are far less proportionately criminal lowlifes than the Poles or Balts. Turks in Germany over 50 years are far better behaved than Poles in Germany and certainly Poles in UK. You will get more technically qualified professionals from Poland than Turkey ( Communist legacy) but a much more positive cultural impact from Turks.

    Despite some despicable actions in Syria,Turley makes plenty of sensible, practical decisions in relationship with Russia....and takes good economic decisions - investment, including non-subversive investment in Tatarstan and Kavkaz regions with Russia, no problems ( in fact good co-operation) on gas pipelines and delivery, excellent trade and millions of us go there each year on Holiday and have an excellent time.

    Turkey also has not elected 2 homosexuals to be president in the last 15 years - the rubber-faced creep Duda is blatantly one, as was the other in the plane crash

    Poland,Ukrop and Baltics all do clearly anti-Russian policy....Turkey does not - of course I am going to back Turkey ahead of these nutjobs you dimwit!

    Replies: @Dicentim

  225. @AP
    @Ano4

    I was responding to your comment -


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America
     
    Other than for a genocidal sadist, Mexico after colonization is a lot more fun, including for the "colonized," than Mexico before the conquest. (I'm assuming you were thinking of all of Latin America when you typed South America, but the Incas while not as over the top as the Aztecs weren't very mild either).

    About Islam, you are certainly aware that Taj Mahal is a mosque.
     
    Sure, that may be an exception, although I am unfamiliar with pre-Islamic Indian history. Islam ruined Egypt, Constantinople, Persia, etc. India may have been better before Islam, also.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Ano4, @RSDB

  226. @AaronB
    @AP

    India was definitely better before Islam!

    The Muslims destroyed the beautiful and thriving Buddhist universities, destroying many priceless texts and setting the religion back centuries.

    The architecture left by the Muslims in India is beautiful. I have seen it and it is amazing. But how much of it is Muslim? It is really pre-Muslim Persian and Indian in influence.

    And the version of Islam that developed in India was before modern times heavily syncretic and influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism - especially in Kashmir, which had many Hindu-Sufi saints.

    Indian Islam became the most attractive version of the religion because it was a hybrid-Islam. Modern times sadly changed all this.

    But certainly overall the Muslim conquest was a tragedy for India.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Buddhism in India was already in decline before the Islamic conquest.

    The main reason for this decline was the resurgence of the Vedic Brahmanism.

    Buddhism in Central Asia was greatly weakened by the Hephtalite/White Huns (Spenta Huna).

    Muslims finished off what Beahmins and Mithraists have severely degraded and weakened.

    And it took them 300 – 400 years to finish of Buddhadharma in the Greater India and Khorassan despite the strong assistance they received from the Brahmin.

    Sometimes, Muslims were more tolerant towards Buddhadharma than the Brahmin. It was notoriously the case in Nava Vihara which was connected to the Abbasid Vizier Barmakid family whose ancestors were titular lords of Balkh and Nava Vihara in pre-Islamic times.

    At other times Muslims were outright destructive, as in the case of Nalanda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Buddhism in India had already influenced Hinduism. Vedanta was basically Buddhism in Hindu guise. So in a sense it had done its work in India.

    And this element also infiltrated Islam in the form of Sufism - which is contrary to mainstream Islam and Indian in origin. So it wasn't entirely a calamity.

    Still, a syncretic Hindu-Buddhist civilization would have been a more attractive culture than the Islam that replaced it. And it would have developed in a more organic fashion in ways we can't anticipate.

    Islam was a net negative for India culturally and civilizationally. Thank God, not to the extent that it was in Egypt or Constantinople, where it completely eradicated a beautiful ancient culture.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I dont normally comment here, but as a Buddhist man of Buryat-Mongolian heritage, I get very angry about your comments, for you dont know jackshit about Buddhadharma nor Hindudharma and Im forced to comment here if I want keep my sanity. First do you even know what Vedic Brahmanism means? Historians use that name for describing the dominant religious tradition in India during the Iron age. So 1000BC-500BC more or less. It was vastly different from the religion that Hinduism later developed, that is sometimes called as Puranic Hinduism. It didnt have temples nor statues, even the major worshipped gods differed from the later periods, it was centered on open air ritual altars, singing of Mantras and religious songs, and different kind of purification rituals and it was totally oral, without any holy texts.

    Then you throw your infantile comments about Kalachakra that you have read from Wikipedia or equivalent, although Berzin is an okay source, although very shallow. But the historical or prophetic commentary of Kalachakra is very minuscule part of it, its main aim, like the aim of all Buddhist tantra is to gain swift realization of ones Buddha nature and to eliminate dualistic thinking from ones mindstream. How do I know? For I myself have attended Kalachakra initiation and long ceremonies under it by H.H. Dalai Lama.

    But that Hinduism that gained victory over Buddhism in India was totally different from Vedic Brahmanism, it was centered in the worship of Shiva or Vishnu as supreme gods and it was very much linked with veneration of King and how the king was the representative of Ishvara's/Brahman's power on earth, philosophically it had core in Advainta Vedanta.

    Also your reasons for disappearance of Buddhadharma are straight from wikipedia or equivalent, again showing your infantile nature, for a mature man does not comment about things that he has a limited knowledge. There are many different reasons why Buddhism disappeared from India, and there is no academic nor Buddhist consensus why it happened, but rarely in human history there is a one reason/caude that results overall change, normally, like all of you on this site know, its combination of different causes and conditions. What we know is that Advainta Vedanta was on rise, thanks to Adi Shankara, that for a common man there was no large difference between Boddhisattvas and Puranic gods, that Muslim invaders destroyed great Monastert-Universities of India, and that there was great economical structural change undergoing in India. Centrally administered large Hindu-Buddhist empires with their highly developed economies and cities were disappearing, Brahmins were more decentralized than Monastic institutions so they had easier time in safeguarding of their traditions that huge international Buddhist monastic brotherhoods.

    I dont normally comment here because of my bad English but I couldnt stand anymore ano4 constant parading here as an expert of "eastern traditions."

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  227. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Buddhism in India was already in decline before the Islamic conquest.

    The main reason for this decline was the resurgence of the Vedic Brahmanism.

    Buddhism in Central Asia was greatly weakened by the Hephtalite/White Huns (Spenta Huna).

    Muslims finished off what Beahmins and Mithraists have severely degraded and weakened.

    And it took them 300 - 400 years to finish of Buddhadharma in the Greater India and Khorassan despite the strong assistance they received from the Brahmin.

    Sometimes, Muslims were more tolerant towards Buddhadharma than the Brahmin. It was notoriously the case in Nava Vihara which was connected to the Abbasid Vizier Barmakid family whose ancestors were titular lords of Balkh and Nava Vihara in pre-Islamic times.

    At other times Muslims were outright destructive, as in the case of Nalanda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    Buddhism in India had already influenced Hinduism. Vedanta was basically Buddhism in Hindu guise. So in a sense it had done its work in India.

    And this element also infiltrated Islam in the form of Sufism – which is contrary to mainstream Islam and Indian in origin. So it wasn’t entirely a calamity.

    Still, a syncretic Hindu-Buddhist civilization would have been a more attractive culture than the Islam that replaced it. And it would have developed in a more organic fashion in ways we can’t anticipate.

    Islam was a net negative for India culturally and civilizationally. Thank God, not to the extent that it was in Egypt or Constantinople, where it completely eradicated a beautiful ancient culture.

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AaronB

    If the universe is guided by a rational Being, one can maybe see the purpose of Islam coming to India was to acquire the Sufi element, which will be the catalyst for the next leveling-up of Islam - away from its primitive violent past and towards something aligned with the more evolved world religions.

    If God loves all His creatures, it would have been unfair to leave Islam alone of all the religions without that inner seed that allowes development beyond primitive notions of violence. That seed has not really sprouted yet, true, and Islam has retrogressed - today's Islam is easily the most hideous version of the religion yet.

    But sometimes you have to take one step backward before you can leap forward.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    Vedanta uses sometimes similar terminology with Madhyamaka philosophy of Mahayana, but its really not similar to Buddhism for it posits that only Brahman is truly real and everything else is an illusion. This is very different from Buddhism that does not believe in Brahman/Ishvara/God. Maybe i will start commenting how Islam is practically Judaism in disguise. Would that be nice?

    Replies: @AaronB

  228. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Buddhism in India had already influenced Hinduism. Vedanta was basically Buddhism in Hindu guise. So in a sense it had done its work in India.

    And this element also infiltrated Islam in the form of Sufism - which is contrary to mainstream Islam and Indian in origin. So it wasn't entirely a calamity.

    Still, a syncretic Hindu-Buddhist civilization would have been a more attractive culture than the Islam that replaced it. And it would have developed in a more organic fashion in ways we can't anticipate.

    Islam was a net negative for India culturally and civilizationally. Thank God, not to the extent that it was in Egypt or Constantinople, where it completely eradicated a beautiful ancient culture.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    If the universe is guided by a rational Being, one can maybe see the purpose of Islam coming to India was to acquire the Sufi element, which will be the catalyst for the next leveling-up of Islam – away from its primitive violent past and towards something aligned with the more evolved world religions.

    If God loves all His creatures, it would have been unfair to leave Islam alone of all the religions without that inner seed that allowes development beyond primitive notions of violence. That seed has not really sprouted yet, true, and Islam has retrogressed – today’s Islam is easily the most hideous version of the religion yet.

    But sometimes you have to take one step backward before you can leap forward.

  229. @Peter Akuleyev
    @Felix Keverich

    Not to mention Samara, Saratov, Rostov, Ingushetia, and Ufa. Islam is the religion of the future in Russia.

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Philip Owen

    There are many Tatars in Saratov Province especially on former German territory and a huge mosque in the city. On Friday people walk there in large numbers. The University of Kazan has an outpost there. I sometimes go to the market and I am the only European in the cafe where they serve a lamb broth a lot like the one we eat in Wales. It is served in a pot with a norrow neck.

    All this said, I see no sign of a cultural take over. There are several cathedrals and many restored churches, my favourite is in a bakery. They bless the bread. I guess they did before the revolution.

    Everybody seems to get along.

  230. In my humble opinion, this whole Islam thing comes with the kind of environment that saw its birth.

    [MORE]

    Aridity, less well defined seasons, irrigation, centralisation, nomads, brigands in the wild, merchants etc. brought about this system based around the lunar calendar, where you have to live like a monk by constant prayer, waterless fasting and where women are either in the tent or wear it. The incompatibility of the harsh rules with human nature and the scarcity of resources has made the Islamic society Manichean, fanatical, yet hypocritical with people doing all sorts of things that they aren’t supposed to.

    Surely, because of the conquests, an urbane high culture developed with cities that in their day were far superior to any in the West, but they were to a great extent fuelled by the civilisations that already lived in the conquered lands: Levantine, Persian, Greek and others, and by countless captives, slaves and other new additions brought from the ever expanding frontiers, but then the conquests ran outside their ecological environment and stopped, while within , uniformity set in and the steam ran out.

    What had worked in the East centuries ago is not meant to work in the West of tomorrow unless we are talking of similar conditions -perhaps it works well in carceral conditions; that old culture, high and beautiful as part of it was, was set to become a distant memory in the form of folklore or artistic revivals by orientalists but the West made the world modern and the technologies, nationalisms and socialisms that it had spread failed to bring fast success – contrary to the prevalent belief, impatience is a trait of the East- so came back the idea of greatness based on puritanism and religion.

    Then, there’s the oil to pay for it and the poor pre-modern people teleported from their villages to the vertical villages of the Paris’, Brussels’ and Amsterdams.

    In Paris, there is a Moorish mosque, called the Paris mosque; beautifully built in an age when Islam was a novelty patronised by rich colonialist bachelors of nature, it still has the feel of a place of culture with a library containing far more than just The book, also Mrs Dicentim wasn’t asked to cover herself when we visited and Jews are said to have been hidden inside during the occupation. It all should have stayed that way; only the few interesting should have crossed seas and oceans to tell tall tales of their distant lands; modernity would have worked, the moustache would have displaced the beard and the scarf to the domain of the elderly and of folklore and with time Turks, Arabs, Persians and others would have been nations without having to try again to solve this whole religious problem that others have solved almost four centuries ago.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Dicentim

    When I first read the Qur'an it was a very fine French translation by Hamza Boubakeur who was both the grand Mufti and the father of current rector of the Grande Mosquée de Paris Dalil Boubakeur.

    Hamza Boubakeur was a student of the exceptional Louis Massignon, a great Catholic Islamologue and Orientalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

    My Arabic is quite weak (it is a complex language) but Mr Boubakeur translation presented the Arabic and French texts on opposite pages. So I could try to read the original text.

    These two gentlemen, the father and the son are an example of what Algerians might have become under French guidance, if only the colonial politics were more balanced.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Boubakeur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalil_Boubakeur

    Instead there was the mai 1945 massacres of the Algerians (named les Français Musulmans at the time) demanding equal rights with the Pieds Noirs (Algerian Europeans and Jews), the 1954 - 1962 war of independence with its litany of mutually inflicted atrocities, the socialist FLN dictatorship, the Arabisation of Algeria and the Algerian civil war 1993 - 2003.

    At the same time there was a massive migration of Muslims to France starting with the Harkis who fought on the French side against the FLN. My opinion is that today people of Muslim descent form probably 15% of the French population. In a generation they might well be 20 or even 25%. Those of Algerian descent are probably at least half of them.

    There are people in France who do all their possible to prevent a dialogue between Muslims and other religious affiliations. In fact these people gleefully rub their hands each time violence flares in Islamist terrorism or the troubles in les Cités.

    French Muslims are quite numerous and they are not going to just disappear somewhere. Their incessant dehumanization is not conducive to anything positive. Quite the opposite. The times when Europeans successfully practiced ethnic cleansing are long past.

    Of course it would have been better for France to stay away from the Maghrib and Africa and for the Muslims to never come to France, but it is too late now. People should do the best they can in the current situation.

    This morning I have posted links to the Lancet articles describing the demographic projections for the XXIst century. The only region where the population will significantly increase by 2100 are the Maghrib and Subsaharan Africa. Algerians will be 75 million by 2050, same population as France. But if we keep in mind that at least 15% of French citizens will have family connections with Algeria, we understand that France is facing a problematic future.

    Maybe it would be well advised to ensure and enforce integration at last, before the situation becomes absolutely intolerable. Maybe it is time to prevent those who work against integration from seeding seeds of discord...

    Replies: @AaronB, @Dicentim

  231. All of this wonderful conversation regarding world religions over the last few days here, has finally got me to think of an old film that I’ve viewed several times over the years, “Lost Horizons” directed by Frank Capra. It’s really an excellent “adventure drama fantasy film” about the location and meaning of the lost and fabled “Shangri-La” somewhere just beyond in the Himalaya mountains. Within the melange of religious syncretism displayed within this film is a strong whisp of Christian sensibility, as it seems to me is evident in most of the comments here. If you haven’t seen it, do so, if you have, see it again. I can’t wait to get the newest 2016 4K restoration, to view on my new TV. Also, I’d be interested in hearing what others think of this great film:

  232. The world is becoming hipernationalist

    Turks convert the hagia sophia in a mosque
    China is putting muslims in concentration camps as they replace native uighurs from their territory
    India is governed by an ultra-nationalism, casteism, populism, authoritarianism, nativism party

    South africans are expropiating farms and other properties in racial basis
    Jews have created an apartheid state in israel
    ……

    And this are the people that once that came to the west have the courage to alectionate us of racism xenophobia and a million bullshit like that.

    INCREDIBLE

  233. Here’s the complete film, I don’t understand why those that provided it decided to show it in this strange, “highway configuration” (it’s free, so don’t complain):

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mr. Hack

    Lol Mr Hack they upload like that because they don't want it removed by YouTube "Content ID" algorithm.

    If you want to see online, then here is nice free version:
    http://123putlocker.pro/watch/xqpEoO7v-lost-horizon-1937/mega.html

    But if it is such a re-watchable film then people should pay for a 4K restoration. Future restoration projects of less famous classic films requires for there to be a market of fussy cinephile customers that pay, if such restoration industry will survive and improve in quality of their products, invest in improved technology, training of skilled labour, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  234. @Dicentim
    In my humble opinion, this whole Islam thing comes with the kind of environment that saw its birth.

    Aridity, less well defined seasons, irrigation, centralisation, nomads, brigands in the wild, merchants etc. brought about this system based around the lunar calendar, where you have to live like a monk by constant prayer, waterless fasting and where women are either in the tent or wear it. The incompatibility of the harsh rules with human nature and the scarcity of resources has made the Islamic society Manichean, fanatical, yet hypocritical with people doing all sorts of things that they aren't supposed to.

    Surely, because of the conquests, an urbane high culture developed with cities that in their day were far superior to any in the West, but they were to a great extent fuelled by the civilisations that already lived in the conquered lands: Levantine, Persian, Greek and others, and by countless captives, slaves and other new additions brought from the ever expanding frontiers, but then the conquests ran outside their ecological environment and stopped, while within , uniformity set in and the steam ran out.

    What had worked in the East centuries ago is not meant to work in the West of tomorrow unless we are talking of similar conditions -perhaps it works well in carceral conditions; that old culture, high and beautiful as part of it was, was set to become a distant memory in the form of folklore or artistic revivals by orientalists but the West made the world modern and the technologies, nationalisms and socialisms that it had spread failed to bring fast success - contrary to the prevalent belief, impatience is a trait of the East- so came back the idea of greatness based on puritanism and religion.

    Then, there's the oil to pay for it and the poor pre-modern people teleported from their villages to the vertical villages of the Paris', Brussels' and Amsterdams.

    In Paris, there is a Moorish mosque, called the Paris mosque; beautifully built in an age when Islam was a novelty patronised by rich colonialist bachelors of nature, it still has the feel of a place of culture with a library containing far more than just The book, also Mrs Dicentim wasn't asked to cover herself when we visited and Jews are said to have been hidden inside during the occupation. It all should have stayed that way; only the few interesting should have crossed seas and oceans to tell tall tales of their distant lands; modernity would have worked, the moustache would have displaced the beard and the scarf to the domain of the elderly and of folklore and with time Turks, Arabs, Persians and others would have been nations without having to try again to solve this whole religious problem that others have solved almost four centuries ago.

    Replies: @Ano4

    When I first read the Qur’an it was a very fine French translation by Hamza Boubakeur who was both the grand Mufti and the father of current rector of the Grande Mosquée de Paris Dalil Boubakeur.

    Hamza Boubakeur was a student of the exceptional Louis Massignon, a great Catholic Islamologue and Orientalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

    My Arabic is quite weak (it is a complex language) but Mr Boubakeur translation presented the Arabic and French texts on opposite pages. So I could try to read the original text.

    These two gentlemen, the father and the son are an example of what Algerians might have become under French guidance, if only the colonial politics were more balanced.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Boubakeur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalil_Boubakeur

    [MORE]

    Instead there was the mai 1945 massacres of the Algerians (named les Français Musulmans at the time) demanding equal rights with the Pieds Noirs (Algerian Europeans and Jews), the 1954 – 1962 war of independence with its litany of mutually inflicted atrocities, the socialist FLN dictatorship, the Arabisation of Algeria and the Algerian civil war 1993 – 2003.

    At the same time there was a massive migration of Muslims to France starting with the Harkis who fought on the French side against the FLN. My opinion is that today people of Muslim descent form probably 15% of the French population. In a generation they might well be 20 or even 25%. Those of Algerian descent are probably at least half of them.

    There are people in France who do all their possible to prevent a dialogue between Muslims and other religious affiliations. In fact these people gleefully rub their hands each time violence flares in Islamist terrorism or the troubles in les Cités.

    French Muslims are quite numerous and they are not going to just disappear somewhere. Their incessant dehumanization is not conducive to anything positive. Quite the opposite. The times when Europeans successfully practiced ethnic cleansing are long past.

    Of course it would have been better for France to stay away from the Maghrib and Africa and for the Muslims to never come to France, but it is too late now. People should do the best they can in the current situation.

    This morning I have posted links to the Lancet articles describing the demographic projections for the XXIst century. The only region where the population will significantly increase by 2100 are the Maghrib and Subsaharan Africa. Algerians will be 75 million by 2050, same population as France. But if we keep in mind that at least 15% of French citizens will have family connections with Algeria, we understand that France is facing a problematic future.

    Maybe it would be well advised to ensure and enforce integration at last, before the situation becomes absolutely intolerable. Maybe it is time to prevent those who work against integration from seeding seeds of discord…

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Ano4

    I find the strength and depth of your advocacy of Islam - and the multiple levels on which you do it, and against everyone, Jews, Orthodox, etc - to be out of place, weird, and suspicious.

    You are not who you say you are. I do not say you are a Muslim, although I would not be surprised, but you have for some reason decided to take sides with Islam against everyone else - and to advocate strongly for it in all ways, including "predicting" its supremacy over Christianity.

    The one thing you are not is a disinterested, objective Russian with agnostic tendencies whose primary religious interest is Zen....and you certainly are not someone who does not take sides in the conflict between "The House of Ishmael", etc, etc, as you have repeatedly said. That is just a deflection. You take very strong sides and are a deeply committed party.

    You are manipulative and dishonest, and do not declare your loyalties and political commitments.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

    , @Dicentim
    @Ano4

    My understanding is that the problem lies in the numbers, concentrations, socio-cultural origins and attitudes.

    Yes, there are too many and too many live concentrated in the so called cités; most have parents or grandparents who rode donkeys back home and had no grand plan when crossing over.

    The attitudes were formed by the lengthy colonial period and the subsequent violent conflict, so it is quite unacceptable for many of the so called Beurs to support the French national team, especially if it plays the old country; there are other things too, such as first names, pork, women's "honour" etc as well as a certain way in which the European French view their former subjects and that is reciprocated by the latter's contempt.

    Nevertheless, there is a lot of passing and integration going on; many smarter, more or less European looking (not that it is that important in a country as swarthy as France) people change names and truly integrate; they marry Europeans and have European kids; the often mentionned here Zidane is an example, but there are plenty of half-Algerian celebrities who are so fully accepted as French that most audiences don't even think of them as having some sort of other background: Alain Bashung, Etienne Daho, Isabelle Adjani, Jacques Villeret, Dany Boon and so on.

    The religious figures that you mentioned do not represent what the so called "Arabs" in France should ideally have been, unless of course the argument comes from an Islamic point of view; moderate and learned as they were, they would have been as alien as the Hassidim or Tibetan monks besides the fact that scholars are always a tiny fraction and cannot be emulated by most people.

    France is a secular country and should have projected its ideology and values more; dual citizenship should have been outlawed, millitary service compulsory (it was but many dual citizens chose to serve in Algeria or avoided it altogether in the confusion and fraud that such a situation created); of course, there should have been less of them and the housing situation should have been addressed better, but all is not lost, as said earlier, many integrate and when in third countries many Beurs act and feel pretty French.

    It is the delinquent rabble with no prospects and raised on hip-hop and Tony Montana that usually turn to Islam, Wahabi variety of course as the parents can only offer folklore; as I stated before, it works well in carceral environments, also in pre-carceral ones; it gives discipline and legitimacy to thugs, past, present and future.

    The point stands, Islam offers no answers to a modern civil society, be it of European, North African or any other origin; North Africa itself will grow out of it and France will be left with its social problem, not a colonial one, not a religious or ethnic one.

    Now, I hope that you will not be offended if I bring the question to you: Why choose that? Or is it just with non-Muslims? Do you argue against Islam when your interlocutors are Muslim? Or is it pointless to do so? You are an intelligent and well learned person, you don't descend from illiterate parents; Algeria didn't send illiterate people abroad to learn complex technical things; you also had all the opportunities that your eclectic background offered; Mischlings are a complicated lot, some pick one side or the other, some pick both or something else. What is it then? Looks? Name? Or is it just easier to pick the lesser side so to appear bigger, like that last drunkard from Tula who would be king of the Pygmies.

    I sincerely hope that you will find the path that matches your intelligence and soul for it can be different from the path that lesser ones (from both your sides) said it is.

    Replies: @Ano4

  235. @Ano4
    @Dicentim

    When I first read the Qur'an it was a very fine French translation by Hamza Boubakeur who was both the grand Mufti and the father of current rector of the Grande Mosquée de Paris Dalil Boubakeur.

    Hamza Boubakeur was a student of the exceptional Louis Massignon, a great Catholic Islamologue and Orientalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

    My Arabic is quite weak (it is a complex language) but Mr Boubakeur translation presented the Arabic and French texts on opposite pages. So I could try to read the original text.

    These two gentlemen, the father and the son are an example of what Algerians might have become under French guidance, if only the colonial politics were more balanced.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Boubakeur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalil_Boubakeur

    Instead there was the mai 1945 massacres of the Algerians (named les Français Musulmans at the time) demanding equal rights with the Pieds Noirs (Algerian Europeans and Jews), the 1954 - 1962 war of independence with its litany of mutually inflicted atrocities, the socialist FLN dictatorship, the Arabisation of Algeria and the Algerian civil war 1993 - 2003.

    At the same time there was a massive migration of Muslims to France starting with the Harkis who fought on the French side against the FLN. My opinion is that today people of Muslim descent form probably 15% of the French population. In a generation they might well be 20 or even 25%. Those of Algerian descent are probably at least half of them.

    There are people in France who do all their possible to prevent a dialogue between Muslims and other religious affiliations. In fact these people gleefully rub their hands each time violence flares in Islamist terrorism or the troubles in les Cités.

    French Muslims are quite numerous and they are not going to just disappear somewhere. Their incessant dehumanization is not conducive to anything positive. Quite the opposite. The times when Europeans successfully practiced ethnic cleansing are long past.

    Of course it would have been better for France to stay away from the Maghrib and Africa and for the Muslims to never come to France, but it is too late now. People should do the best they can in the current situation.

    This morning I have posted links to the Lancet articles describing the demographic projections for the XXIst century. The only region where the population will significantly increase by 2100 are the Maghrib and Subsaharan Africa. Algerians will be 75 million by 2050, same population as France. But if we keep in mind that at least 15% of French citizens will have family connections with Algeria, we understand that France is facing a problematic future.

    Maybe it would be well advised to ensure and enforce integration at last, before the situation becomes absolutely intolerable. Maybe it is time to prevent those who work against integration from seeding seeds of discord...

    Replies: @AaronB, @Dicentim

    I find the strength and depth of your advocacy of Islam – and the multiple levels on which you do it, and against everyone, Jews, Orthodox, etc – to be out of place, weird, and suspicious.

    You are not who you say you are. I do not say you are a Muslim, although I would not be surprised, but you have for some reason decided to take sides with Islam against everyone else – and to advocate strongly for it in all ways, including “predicting” its supremacy over Christianity.

    The one thing you are not is a disinterested, objective Russian with agnostic tendencies whose primary religious interest is Zen….and you certainly are not someone who does not take sides in the conflict between “The House of Ishmael”, etc, etc, as you have repeatedly said. That is just a deflection. You take very strong sides and are a deeply committed party.

    You are manipulative and dishonest, and do not declare your loyalties and political commitments.

    • Troll: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AaronB

    You are again projecting your personal negative psychological attitudes towards Islam onto my person.

    It is truly a knee-jerk reaction of yours.

    You should ask yourself the question of why you do this.

    That is if you truly want to know thyself.

    Regarding my humble person, I have also read about the Aghori Naths, the tantric lefthand path Hindu sect practicing necromancy, sexual depravity, drug use and cannibalism.

    I honestly hope that this doesn't make me into a cannibal in your opinion.

    🙂

    , @Hyperborean
    @AaronB

    The simplest answer is probably that his views are influenced by his friendliness toward his Berber friends, though it doesn't account for the strange Perennial-esque religious prophecies.

    Replies: @AaronB

  236. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    I find the strength and depth of your advocacy of Islam - and the multiple levels on which you do it, and against everyone, Jews, Orthodox, etc - to be out of place, weird, and suspicious.

    You are not who you say you are. I do not say you are a Muslim, although I would not be surprised, but you have for some reason decided to take sides with Islam against everyone else - and to advocate strongly for it in all ways, including "predicting" its supremacy over Christianity.

    The one thing you are not is a disinterested, objective Russian with agnostic tendencies whose primary religious interest is Zen....and you certainly are not someone who does not take sides in the conflict between "The House of Ishmael", etc, etc, as you have repeatedly said. That is just a deflection. You take very strong sides and are a deeply committed party.

    You are manipulative and dishonest, and do not declare your loyalties and political commitments.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

    You are again projecting your personal negative psychological attitudes towards Islam onto my person.

    It is truly a knee-jerk reaction of yours.

    You should ask yourself the question of why you do this.

    That is if you truly want to know thyself.

    Regarding my humble person, I have also read about the Aghori Naths, the tantric lefthand path Hindu sect practicing necromancy, sexual depravity, drug use and cannibalism.

    I honestly hope that this doesn’t make me into a cannibal in your opinion.

    🙂

  237. The thing that have surprised me is the caste style remarcs that ano 4 have done refering to the abrahmanic religions and putting islam as some kind of kshatriya caste in his 2050 europe .

    Superficially anti jewish but really anti european to the core ,i have perceived the same not only in muslims but in asians, indians ,north africans….
    Is a liberation for them to see europeans fall even if it mean to declare jews as the absolute kings of the world.
    I suppose there are too few jews and even when they see one they could view him as another european soo the mental extress of being judged by “the achieviment and supremacy of the west” dishmish

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Amiga

    Problem with Europe is that it has grown weak. It doesn't have the moral or physical strength anymore to enforce Western ideals onto the rest of the World.

    Muslims are in general rather primitive, like those Barbarians who have invaded Latin Roman Empire, but sometimes a lack of sophistication is not a bad thing. At least primitive people tend to have children. Moreover, Muslims' history is proof of their ability to conquer and abide. The only region that they have relinquished after having settled in was Al Andalus. The Northern Spaniards of the time had the cojones big enough to score against the Muslims of Al Andalus who have grown effete.

    Today it is the Western Europeans who are effete in their majority. And they do not reproduce, children are a burden for them, they prefer "safe sex" on Tinder, that is when they are not of some sexual deviant kink.

    The solution to prevent this sad situation was available prior to 1917. If not for the revolution, Russians would have today numbered around 400 million and would have united the Slav in a Eastern European confederacy of some 500 million people. These Slav Europeans, both Orthodox and Catholic, would have protected Europe from all harm and kept Muslims under the heel, as Russians did in the Russian Empire.

    But Western Europeans did their best to weaken Russia and prevent Slavic unity. Maybe they did not want to live with 500 million Slavs as neighbors.

    That is why they will have as neighbors 100 million Maghrebian Muslims. Tough luck, but karma is a hammer, not a feather.

  238. @Amiga
    The thing that have surprised me is the caste style remarcs that ano 4 have done refering to the abrahmanic religions and putting islam as some kind of kshatriya caste in his 2050 europe .

    Superficially anti jewish but really anti european to the core ,i have perceived the same not only in muslims but in asians, indians ,north africans....
    Is a liberation for them to see europeans fall even if it mean to declare jews as the absolute kings of the world.
    I suppose there are too few jews and even when they see one they could view him as another european soo the mental extress of being judged by "the achieviment and supremacy of the west" dishmish

    Replies: @Ano4

    Problem with Europe is that it has grown weak. It doesn’t have the moral or physical strength anymore to enforce Western ideals onto the rest of the World.

    [MORE]

    Muslims are in general rather primitive, like those Barbarians who have invaded Latin Roman Empire, but sometimes a lack of sophistication is not a bad thing. At least primitive people tend to have children. Moreover, Muslims’ history is proof of their ability to conquer and abide. The only region that they have relinquished after having settled in was Al Andalus. The Northern Spaniards of the time had the cojones big enough to score against the Muslims of Al Andalus who have grown effete.

    Today it is the Western Europeans who are effete in their majority. And they do not reproduce, children are a burden for them, they prefer “safe sex” on Tinder, that is when they are not of some sexual deviant kink.

    The solution to prevent this sad situation was available prior to 1917. If not for the revolution, Russians would have today numbered around 400 million and would have united the Slav in a Eastern European confederacy of some 500 million people. These Slav Europeans, both Orthodox and Catholic, would have protected Europe from all harm and kept Muslims under the heel, as Russians did in the Russian Empire.

    But Western Europeans did their best to weaken Russia and prevent Slavic unity. Maybe they did not want to live with 500 million Slavs as neighbors.

    That is why they will have as neighbors 100 million Maghrebian Muslims. Tough luck, but karma is a hammer, not a feather.

  239. @dfordoom
    @Excal


    The past doesn’t come back, but Christianity has a certain knack for not staying dead.
     
    Secularism and modernism are threats that no religion in the past ever had to face. They are much more dangerous threats to religion than invasion, schisms, the rise of competing religions or heresies.

    Every religion is crumbling before the onslaught of secularism and modernism.

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    It's not so much that we've entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world. It's a whole new ball game. In the past it was always a matter of competing religions or competing heresies. Now it appears that most people simply no longer need any religion at all.

    Replies: @Dumbo, @anonymous coward, @AP, @Excal

    The fact that Christianity may have survived other threats does not offer us any guide as to how it might survive this threat.

    No guide at all? Two thousand years of continuous attacks from every side, plus astonishing levels of internal incompetence, heresy, and corruption — and it’s still standing not merely as a set of ideas, but as a continuously operating institution? How many human institutions have survived even half so long under far easier conditions?

    Perhaps now we’re at last witnessing the final blow — the one that will finally finish it off! Though I wouldn’t put everything on that bet. Whatever finally does for Christianity will have to be really, really spectacular.

    Watch: when Christianity looks finished, utterly done for, dead and gone — turn around, blink, and you will see it alive again, smiling, stronger than ever. It takes after its Founder that way.

    It’s not so much that we’ve entered a post-Christian world. We are entering a post-religion world.

    This has been said so many times through the centuries that it is a bit surprising that it hasn’t come true ever, even once, even temporarily.

    It certainly isn’t what’s happening now. Religion is more powerful today than it’s ever been, and its influence is only growing. The religions of socialism and atheism are certainly doing quite well at the moment.

    “But those aren’t religions!”, you say? I say that if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it might just be a duck. The worship of man is no less a religion than the worship of God (even if it always collapses into worship of the devil).

    • Agree: AP
  240. @Hyperborean
    @Ano4


    (unlike Hagia Sophia that would certainly be filled up for the next Friday prayer).
     
    In reality, Erdogan is like a third-rate version of ROC officials who build new churches without working to actually get any people in them.

    It is also full of veiled symbolism that the public can only learn from its designers, like six minarets representing the six articles of the faith. Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory of the Seljuks against the Byzantine army that cemented Muslim rule in Anatolia. Its 72-meter high main dome represents what builders say are the 72 nations that lived in the city. The secondary dome has a diameter of 34 meters after the license plate number for the city. The interior of the dome is inscribed with 16 adjectives attributed to Allah, and it also symbolizes the number of states founded by Turks in history. Atop the main dome is a three-piece finial that weighs 4.5 tons, and at a height of 7.77 meters, the largest of its kind.
     
    And let us not forget the attendance of the glorious presidents of Albania, Guinea and Senegal!

    Delegations from several countries joined President Erdoğan for the opening. Among dignitaries attending the ceremony were Albanian President Ilir Meta, Guinean President Alpha Conde and Senegalese President Macky Sall. Muslim scholars and religious figures from Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Azerbaijan, Iran, Greece, Montenegro, Palestine and Qatar were also present at the opening.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/istanbul/2019/05/03/erdogan-inaugurates-turkeys-biggest-place-of-worship-grand-camlica-mosque-in-istanbul

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory

    But isn’t 1071 the Christian year? Don’t Muslims use a different calendar?

    That’s pretty fake and gay.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @reiner Tor


    But isn’t 1071 the Christian year? Don’t Muslims use a different calendar?

    That’s pretty fake and gay.
     
    I hadn't thought of that, that's actually rather funny.
  241. Here goes my prediction

    Whites have became the sacrificial lamb of the new world order.

    Muslims will side with the west it doent matter how many muslim the west kill,how many of their woman are raped and their children mutilated they know they will never have a chance to prospere ( and became a khsatriya caste ) in a chinese dominated future like they think they can do in the west, thats aplicable to the rest of the non whites too

    Non whites will became the biggest enemies of china no matter what they publicly say they will fear china for the same reasons they fear a proudly western white world they cant parasitice it and only as parasiyes they can prospere .
    in the end china will be alone completely alone against the entire world , they cant sacrifice their own soul like the west have done .

    The only people left not integrated in the western vs china paradign will be whites , to some extent is already happening looking how whites are abandoning the cities and bunckering in the rural areas,

    Whites are the only TRUE revolutionary people left and will became heroes out of necesity or die trying .

  242. @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean


    Four of its minarets are exactly 107.1 meters tall in a tribute to the 1071 Malazgirt (Manzikert) victory
     
    But isn’t 1071 the Christian year? Don’t Muslims use a different calendar?

    That’s pretty fake and gay.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    But isn’t 1071 the Christian year? Don’t Muslims use a different calendar?

    That’s pretty fake and gay.

    I hadn’t thought of that, that’s actually rather funny.

  243. @Ano4
    @AaronB

    Buddhism in India was already in decline before the Islamic conquest.

    The main reason for this decline was the resurgence of the Vedic Brahmanism.

    Buddhism in Central Asia was greatly weakened by the Hephtalite/White Huns (Spenta Huna).

    Muslims finished off what Beahmins and Mithraists have severely degraded and weakened.

    And it took them 300 - 400 years to finish of Buddhadharma in the Greater India and Khorassan despite the strong assistance they received from the Brahmin.

    Sometimes, Muslims were more tolerant towards Buddhadharma than the Brahmin. It was notoriously the case in Nava Vihara which was connected to the Abbasid Vizier Barmakid family whose ancestors were titular lords of Balkh and Nava Vihara in pre-Islamic times.

    At other times Muslims were outright destructive, as in the case of Nalanda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    I dont normally comment here, but as a Buddhist man of Buryat-Mongolian heritage, I get very angry about your comments, for you dont know jackshit about Buddhadharma nor Hindudharma and Im forced to comment here if I want keep my sanity. First do you even know what Vedic Brahmanism means? Historians use that name for describing the dominant religious tradition in India during the Iron age. So 1000BC-500BC more or less. It was vastly different from the religion that Hinduism later developed, that is sometimes called as Puranic Hinduism. It didnt have temples nor statues, even the major worshipped gods differed from the later periods, it was centered on open air ritual altars, singing of Mantras and religious songs, and different kind of purification rituals and it was totally oral, without any holy texts.

    Then you throw your infantile comments about Kalachakra that you have read from Wikipedia or equivalent, although Berzin is an okay source, although very shallow. But the historical or prophetic commentary of Kalachakra is very minuscule part of it, its main aim, like the aim of all Buddhist tantra is to gain swift realization of ones Buddha nature and to eliminate dualistic thinking from ones mindstream. How do I know? For I myself have attended Kalachakra initiation and long ceremonies under it by H.H. Dalai Lama.

    But that Hinduism that gained victory over Buddhism in India was totally different from Vedic Brahmanism, it was centered in the worship of Shiva or Vishnu as supreme gods and it was very much linked with veneration of King and how the king was the representative of Ishvara’s/Brahman’s power on earth, philosophically it had core in Advainta Vedanta.

    Also your reasons for disappearance of Buddhadharma are straight from wikipedia or equivalent, again showing your infantile nature, for a mature man does not comment about things that he has a limited knowledge. There are many different reasons why Buddhism disappeared from India, and there is no academic nor Buddhist consensus why it happened, but rarely in human history there is a one reason/caude that results overall change, normally, like all of you on this site know, its combination of different causes and conditions. What we know is that Advainta Vedanta was on rise, thanks to Adi Shankara, that for a common man there was no large difference between Boddhisattvas and Puranic gods, that Muslim invaders destroyed great Monastert-Universities of India, and that there was great economical structural change undergoing in India. Centrally administered large Hindu-Buddhist empires with their highly developed economies and cities were disappearing, Brahmins were more decentralized than Monastic institutions so they had easier time in safeguarding of their traditions that huge international Buddhist monastic brotherhoods.

    I dont normally comment here because of my bad English but I couldnt stand anymore ano4 constant parading here as an expert of “eastern traditions.”

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    And you know what ano4? Mr Hack is correct you should return as quickly as possible back to the Orthodoxy, its the religion of your forefathers the religion into you were baptized. Your understanding of Buddhadharma is higly nihilistic, I base this observation on your previous comments about the nature of God his will and how in your opinion Buddhism is linked to that. Really its tim3 for you to save your soul and return back to the church.

    Replies: @Ano4

  244. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    I find the strength and depth of your advocacy of Islam - and the multiple levels on which you do it, and against everyone, Jews, Orthodox, etc - to be out of place, weird, and suspicious.

    You are not who you say you are. I do not say you are a Muslim, although I would not be surprised, but you have for some reason decided to take sides with Islam against everyone else - and to advocate strongly for it in all ways, including "predicting" its supremacy over Christianity.

    The one thing you are not is a disinterested, objective Russian with agnostic tendencies whose primary religious interest is Zen....and you certainly are not someone who does not take sides in the conflict between "The House of Ishmael", etc, etc, as you have repeatedly said. That is just a deflection. You take very strong sides and are a deeply committed party.

    You are manipulative and dishonest, and do not declare your loyalties and political commitments.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Hyperborean

    The simplest answer is probably that his views are influenced by his friendliness toward his Berber friends, though it doesn’t account for the strange Perennial-esque religious prophecies.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Hyperborean

    Possibly. If so, he seems to have developed a deep loyalty to a foreign culture. The "leapfrogging" loyalty George Orwell described the Left of his time as having toward Russia.

    He even dreams of Islam triumphing over Orthodox Christianity, supposedly his birth religion!

    I honestly did not know that this kind of "transferred loyalty" existed among Russians - I thought it was a purely Western phenomena. Transferred loyalty is a nice way of putting it - a harsher way is self-hate and being a cuck.

    I guess eccentrics and weirdos exist in all countries. Why shouldn't there be some unfortunate sad Russian who has decided to identify with some foreign culture in decline?

    On the other hand, why not be honest about your allegiances? Why the whole pretense of being neutral? Why pretend your primary affiliation is Zen?

    I guess in Russia its still embarrassing.

    And then the Europe Europa character who claimed to be British and suddenly vanished after telling us 1) Britain is a fake country 2) Islam is a legitimate European religion 3) European whites should stay away from Jews.

    I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but its hard not to notice patterns.

    Eh, whatever ano4 is his its clear now what he's about.

  245. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I dont normally comment here, but as a Buddhist man of Buryat-Mongolian heritage, I get very angry about your comments, for you dont know jackshit about Buddhadharma nor Hindudharma and Im forced to comment here if I want keep my sanity. First do you even know what Vedic Brahmanism means? Historians use that name for describing the dominant religious tradition in India during the Iron age. So 1000BC-500BC more or less. It was vastly different from the religion that Hinduism later developed, that is sometimes called as Puranic Hinduism. It didnt have temples nor statues, even the major worshipped gods differed from the later periods, it was centered on open air ritual altars, singing of Mantras and religious songs, and different kind of purification rituals and it was totally oral, without any holy texts.

    Then you throw your infantile comments about Kalachakra that you have read from Wikipedia or equivalent, although Berzin is an okay source, although very shallow. But the historical or prophetic commentary of Kalachakra is very minuscule part of it, its main aim, like the aim of all Buddhist tantra is to gain swift realization of ones Buddha nature and to eliminate dualistic thinking from ones mindstream. How do I know? For I myself have attended Kalachakra initiation and long ceremonies under it by H.H. Dalai Lama.

    But that Hinduism that gained victory over Buddhism in India was totally different from Vedic Brahmanism, it was centered in the worship of Shiva or Vishnu as supreme gods and it was very much linked with veneration of King and how the king was the representative of Ishvara's/Brahman's power on earth, philosophically it had core in Advainta Vedanta.

    Also your reasons for disappearance of Buddhadharma are straight from wikipedia or equivalent, again showing your infantile nature, for a mature man does not comment about things that he has a limited knowledge. There are many different reasons why Buddhism disappeared from India, and there is no academic nor Buddhist consensus why it happened, but rarely in human history there is a one reason/caude that results overall change, normally, like all of you on this site know, its combination of different causes and conditions. What we know is that Advainta Vedanta was on rise, thanks to Adi Shankara, that for a common man there was no large difference between Boddhisattvas and Puranic gods, that Muslim invaders destroyed great Monastert-Universities of India, and that there was great economical structural change undergoing in India. Centrally administered large Hindu-Buddhist empires with their highly developed economies and cities were disappearing, Brahmins were more decentralized than Monastic institutions so they had easier time in safeguarding of their traditions that huge international Buddhist monastic brotherhoods.

    I dont normally comment here because of my bad English but I couldnt stand anymore ano4 constant parading here as an expert of "eastern traditions."

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    And you know what ano4? Mr Hack is correct you should return as quickly as possible back to the Orthodoxy, its the religion of your forefathers the religion into you were baptized. Your understanding of Buddhadharma is higly nihilistic, I base this observation on your previous comments about the nature of God his will and how in your opinion Buddhism is linked to that. Really its tim3 for you to save your soul and return back to the church.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    Thanks for your insight. You should write more often about Tibetan Buddhism on UR because your English is quite good. Actually better than mine. Now if you just stop your angry fuming up my internet face, you might consider two things; first nothing you wrote really contradicts anything I wrote, and second this is a polemic web site and not an internet forum for an in depth detailed discussion about the evolution of Dharmic traditions. Therefore, on UR I very often use the most simplistic arguments, for the sake of brevity and clarity. One has to use skillful means according to the level of the audience.

    About Buddhism, you know absolutely nothing about my practice and my understanding. And frankly you wouldn't know even if I was staring in the face of yours and reciting Prajnaparamita Hrdaya Sutram or commenting on the Vimalakirti Nirdesa. Why am telling this? Because you practice Tantric Tibetan Buddhism, which in my humble opinion is the most removed from original Buddhadharma as taught by the Buddha himself. But I will not decry or criticize your religious tradition, because Buddha has taught us to be compassionate and understanding towards other sentient beings.

    I practice Ch'an/Zen that you certainly know squat about and I consider Cittamatra/Yogacara/Vijnanavada as the Buddhist school/sect of classical Indian Buddhism closest to my personal perspective on the nature of the Mind. Ch'an is very different from the Buryat Lamaism of yours, and I am frankly glad it is, because if it was not I might end up publishing angry diatribes on the internet sites as you do instead of working upon my spiritual understanding. Not a very pleasant perspective from where I stand...

    Finally, I find the attention you manifest towards the salvation of my soul very moving. But we both know what Anatta points to, don't we? And I hardly understand how your advice to worship Ishvara according to the Orthodox Christian tradition is a show of loving kindness towards my humble self.

    All in all you seem to use your ethnic background as a justification to parade a monopolistic take on Buddhadharma and you are down-talking me because according to your less than perfect understanding, Russians are just good to light some candles in front of some icons and chant Господи помилуй!

    В общем, остынь и отстань. То что ты Бурят отнюдь не означает что Буддизм во всех его проявлениях должен соответствовать твоим представлениям. Так что потише со своими духовными понтами.

    Будь здоров, не печалься да не гневайся!

    Good luck with your practice!

    😆

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  246. @AaronB
    @Ano4

    Buddhism in India had already influenced Hinduism. Vedanta was basically Buddhism in Hindu guise. So in a sense it had done its work in India.

    And this element also infiltrated Islam in the form of Sufism - which is contrary to mainstream Islam and Indian in origin. So it wasn't entirely a calamity.

    Still, a syncretic Hindu-Buddhist civilization would have been a more attractive culture than the Islam that replaced it. And it would have developed in a more organic fashion in ways we can't anticipate.

    Islam was a net negative for India culturally and civilizationally. Thank God, not to the extent that it was in Egypt or Constantinople, where it completely eradicated a beautiful ancient culture.

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    Vedanta uses sometimes similar terminology with Madhyamaka philosophy of Mahayana, but its really not similar to Buddhism for it posits that only Brahman is truly real and everything else is an illusion. This is very different from Buddhism that does not believe in Brahman/Ishvara/God. Maybe i will start commenting how Islam is practically Judaism in disguise. Would that be nice?

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Yes, I did not mean that Vedanta is identical to Madhyamika. Merely that it was heavily influenced by it, to the point where it transformed Hinduism.

    The main lingering difference is that Vedanta still permits some positive terminology in describing ultimate reality (Brahman), whereas Madhyamika says no words whatsoever can capture it. (Nothing).

    But Vedanta also emphasizes that one cannot use concepts and words to capture ultimate reality, as if in a net. So the two do remain remarkably close.

    But where you place your emphasis is important - and there is a reason Buddhism is more influential that Vedanta.

    As a Buddhist shouldn't you be more chilled out :)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  247. @Ano4
    @Dicentim

    When I first read the Qur'an it was a very fine French translation by Hamza Boubakeur who was both the grand Mufti and the father of current rector of the Grande Mosquée de Paris Dalil Boubakeur.

    Hamza Boubakeur was a student of the exceptional Louis Massignon, a great Catholic Islamologue and Orientalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

    My Arabic is quite weak (it is a complex language) but Mr Boubakeur translation presented the Arabic and French texts on opposite pages. So I could try to read the original text.

    These two gentlemen, the father and the son are an example of what Algerians might have become under French guidance, if only the colonial politics were more balanced.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Boubakeur

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalil_Boubakeur

    Instead there was the mai 1945 massacres of the Algerians (named les Français Musulmans at the time) demanding equal rights with the Pieds Noirs (Algerian Europeans and Jews), the 1954 - 1962 war of independence with its litany of mutually inflicted atrocities, the socialist FLN dictatorship, the Arabisation of Algeria and the Algerian civil war 1993 - 2003.

    At the same time there was a massive migration of Muslims to France starting with the Harkis who fought on the French side against the FLN. My opinion is that today people of Muslim descent form probably 15% of the French population. In a generation they might well be 20 or even 25%. Those of Algerian descent are probably at least half of them.

    There are people in France who do all their possible to prevent a dialogue between Muslims and other religious affiliations. In fact these people gleefully rub their hands each time violence flares in Islamist terrorism or the troubles in les Cités.

    French Muslims are quite numerous and they are not going to just disappear somewhere. Their incessant dehumanization is not conducive to anything positive. Quite the opposite. The times when Europeans successfully practiced ethnic cleansing are long past.

    Of course it would have been better for France to stay away from the Maghrib and Africa and for the Muslims to never come to France, but it is too late now. People should do the best they can in the current situation.

    This morning I have posted links to the Lancet articles describing the demographic projections for the XXIst century. The only region where the population will significantly increase by 2100 are the Maghrib and Subsaharan Africa. Algerians will be 75 million by 2050, same population as France. But if we keep in mind that at least 15% of French citizens will have family connections with Algeria, we understand that France is facing a problematic future.

    Maybe it would be well advised to ensure and enforce integration at last, before the situation becomes absolutely intolerable. Maybe it is time to prevent those who work against integration from seeding seeds of discord...

    Replies: @AaronB, @Dicentim

    My understanding is that the problem lies in the numbers, concentrations, socio-cultural origins and attitudes.

    [MORE]

    Yes, there are too many and too many live concentrated in the so called cités; most have parents or grandparents who rode donkeys back home and had no grand plan when crossing over.

    The attitudes were formed by the lengthy colonial period and the subsequent violent conflict, so it is quite unacceptable for many of the so called Beurs to support the French national team, especially if it plays the old country; there are other things too, such as first names, pork, women’s “honour” etc as well as a certain way in which the European French view their former subjects and that is reciprocated by the latter’s contempt.

    Nevertheless, there is a lot of passing and integration going on; many smarter, more or less European looking (not that it is that important in a country as swarthy as France) people change names and truly integrate; they marry Europeans and have European kids; the often mentionned here Zidane is an example, but there are plenty of half-Algerian celebrities who are so fully accepted as French that most audiences don’t even think of them as having some sort of other background: Alain Bashung, Etienne Daho, Isabelle Adjani, Jacques Villeret, Dany Boon and so on.

    The religious figures that you mentioned do not represent what the so called “Arabs” in France should ideally have been, unless of course the argument comes from an Islamic point of view; moderate and learned as they were, they would have been as alien as the Hassidim or Tibetan monks besides the fact that scholars are always a tiny fraction and cannot be emulated by most people.

    France is a secular country and should have projected its ideology and values more; dual citizenship should have been outlawed, millitary service compulsory (it was but many dual citizens chose to serve in Algeria or avoided it altogether in the confusion and fraud that such a situation created); of course, there should have been less of them and the housing situation should have been addressed better, but all is not lost, as said earlier, many integrate and when in third countries many Beurs act and feel pretty French.

    It is the delinquent rabble with no prospects and raised on hip-hop and Tony Montana that usually turn to Islam, Wahabi variety of course as the parents can only offer folklore; as I stated before, it works well in carceral environments, also in pre-carceral ones; it gives discipline and legitimacy to thugs, past, present and future.

    The point stands, Islam offers no answers to a modern civil society, be it of European, North African or any other origin; North Africa itself will grow out of it and France will be left with its social problem, not a colonial one, not a religious or ethnic one.

    Now, I hope that you will not be offended if I bring the question to you: Why choose that? Or is it just with non-Muslims? Do you argue against Islam when your interlocutors are Muslim? Or is it pointless to do so? You are an intelligent and well learned person, you don’t descend from illiterate parents; Algeria didn’t send illiterate people abroad to learn complex technical things; you also had all the opportunities that your eclectic background offered; Mischlings are a complicated lot, some pick one side or the other, some pick both or something else. What is it then? Looks? Name? Or is it just easier to pick the lesser side so to appear bigger, like that last drunkard from Tula who would be king of the Pygmies.

    I sincerely hope that you will find the path that matches your intelligence and soul for it can be different from the path that lesser ones (from both your sides) said it is.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Dicentim

    I often agree with your well thought and well written comments. And I do not feel insulted by your take on my humble person because I do not think you meant to be insulting. And even if you were, I wouldn't care much, that's Internet and it ain't real.



    About taking sides, I have taken the side of opting out of Abrahamic faiths many years ago. But before I did, when I was in my early twenties, I read extensively on Orthodox Christianity and Islam and also on Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism (which in my humble opinion is the "original thing" that has been plagiarized by the Semites).

    There were many aspects of Islam that were beautiful and all in all more convincing than what comes with the Christian "package ". One of them was of course Tawheed, the monistic take on the Nature of God, pure, absolute and total Monotheism. But it also came with the problem of Theodicy, the existence of Evil and suffering. This is the only really weak point in the Islamic theology.

    From where I grew up and where I come from it was considered very dishonorable to gang up against a weaker opponent and kick him in the groin when he was already down. On this site, Islam is demonized and dehumanized non-stop and there is no one to remind people of the fact that all is not bad about it. And yes, when I debate with Muslims I always defend European culture, Christianity and even occasionally Jews and Judaism (although quite frankly it is difficult because of Jewish supremacist attitudes that prevail nowadays).

    As a an agnostic very strongly influenced by Zen, I believe that we all share a common human nature that should be nurtured and respected if we want to live in a better society. Demonizing anyone is the wrong message and wrong tool to any situation. Muslims are over one billion people, they are very diverse and come from different traditions. Painting the whole lot of them with the same brush is unwise.

    This is probably the worst possible attitude in France from all places, because of the historical background, the current highly flammable situation and the future that leads towards even more tension and conflict. Interestingly enough, the British seem to understand how to deal with their Muslims way better than the French do. This is nothing new of course, the Perfidious Albion has always been craftier than la douce France.


    The point stands, Islam offers no answers to a modern civil society, be it of European, North African or any other origin; North Africa itself will grow out of it and France will be left with its social problem, not a colonial one, not a religious or ethnic one.
     
    This is important. I do not believe that modern civil societies are here to stay. We are evolving but backwards. Archeofuturism is probably our unfortunate lot for the next decades. And in this case political Islam will be a force to be reckoned with. Especially in France. I frankly wish it was different because I don't like Wahhabism, but I think the French will have to live through very interesting times. Faye and Houellebecq are probably unfortunately right in their controversial description of what lies ahead...

    Ce fût un plaisir d'échanger avec vous cher Dicentime. Merci pour votre temps. Portez-vous bien.
  248. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    And you know what ano4? Mr Hack is correct you should return as quickly as possible back to the Orthodoxy, its the religion of your forefathers the religion into you were baptized. Your understanding of Buddhadharma is higly nihilistic, I base this observation on your previous comments about the nature of God his will and how in your opinion Buddhism is linked to that. Really its tim3 for you to save your soul and return back to the church.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Thanks for your insight. You should write more often about Tibetan Buddhism on UR because your English is quite good. Actually better than mine. Now if you just stop your angry fuming up my internet face, you might consider two things; first nothing you wrote really contradicts anything I wrote, and second this is a polemic web site and not an internet forum for an in depth detailed discussion about the evolution of Dharmic traditions. Therefore, on UR I very often use the most simplistic arguments, for the sake of brevity and clarity. One has to use skillful means according to the level of the audience.

    [MORE]

    About Buddhism, you know absolutely nothing about my practice and my understanding. And frankly you wouldn’t know even if I was staring in the face of yours and reciting Prajnaparamita Hrdaya Sutram or commenting on the Vimalakirti Nirdesa. Why am telling this? Because you practice Tantric Tibetan Buddhism, which in my humble opinion is the most removed from original Buddhadharma as taught by the Buddha himself. But I will not decry or criticize your religious tradition, because Buddha has taught us to be compassionate and understanding towards other sentient beings.

    I practice Ch’an/Zen that you certainly know squat about and I consider Cittamatra/Yogacara/Vijnanavada as the Buddhist school/sect of classical Indian Buddhism closest to my personal perspective on the nature of the Mind. Ch’an is very different from the Buryat Lamaism of yours, and I am frankly glad it is, because if it was not I might end up publishing angry diatribes on the internet sites as you do instead of working upon my spiritual understanding. Not a very pleasant perspective from where I stand…

    Finally, I find the attention you manifest towards the salvation of my soul very moving. But we both know what Anatta points to, don’t we? And I hardly understand how your advice to worship Ishvara according to the Orthodox Christian tradition is a show of loving kindness towards my humble self.

    All in all you seem to use your ethnic background as a justification to parade a monopolistic take on Buddhadharma and you are down-talking me because according to your less than perfect understanding, Russians are just good to light some candles in front of some icons and chant Господи помилуй!

    В общем, остынь и отстань. То что ты Бурят отнюдь не означает что Буддизм во всех его проявлениях должен соответствовать твоим представлениям. Так что потише со своими духовными понтами.

    Будь здоров, не печалься да не гневайся!

    Good luck with your practice!

    😆

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I did not say that I am a Buryat, although I am partly. Also Prajnaparamita sutras are common and important for all Mahayana Buddhist traditions, Vimalakirti is not so important for Tibetan traditions but still part of the canon. And all Tibetan monks need to study Yogachara/Chittamatra philosophy in their curriculum and pass tests on it, or they can never become Geshe/Khenpo. See again? You probably have never studied under proper Buddhist teachers, so you continue blabbing your bullshit. And relations between authentic Chan lineages and Tibetan schools are quite good and warm, many times I have seen Chan monastics, especially nuns from Taiwan, celebrating with Tibetan monks Vesak and Buddha Purnima. Even some of them studying in Tibetan monasteries. If you would know something about real Buddhism that living people practice, you would know that there very rarely is problems between different Mahayana schools and the sense of unity is quite strong. Only with the Theravadas there are sometimes problems, for some of them are fundamentalists and believe that they only have monopoly on authentic Dhamma, but normally they are just noisy minority. And what you are blabbwring about "Tantric Tibetan Buddhism?" Again buzzword from wikipedia, if you would have elementary knowledge about living Tibetan spirituality, you would know that very few practice the way of the hidden mantra and Deity yoga practice. Almost all laypersons and most monks dont practice these kind of practices. How do I know? I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in Tibet. The Buddhist unity is much stronger than you think and similarities between different schools, even though tirthikas like you like to posit otherwise and postulate huge differences on superficial differences. But its probably understandable, for you have probably gotten your understanding from Japanese Zen, which most Buddhist monastics dont acknowledge as orthodox form of Buddhism. For like Buddha explains in monastic Vinaya, Pratimoksha/pattimoksha vows are the very basis of existence for Buddhadharma, when they are not followed there is no more Buddhadharma. In Japan there has been no monks since the Meiji restoration and almost all temples are family owned businesses, also Japanese Buddhism is hyper sectarian by its nature, no where else in the Buddhist world has there occured such splintering to hundreds of different schools, all who have taken some small part of Dharma and made it as their Central practice. Yes this is my metta/maitri/karuna and loving kindness towards you, stop spreading rumors and misconseptions to random people about Buddhism in internet. By the way I am a Russophile and I have lots of Russian friends who are earnest and good practitioners, but for most people converting is not good, for the symbolical and psychological space is very different between religions, one easily becomes spiritually homeless when changing religions. His holiness also discourages conversions without very strong resolve and years of pondering, for if we convert without strong conviction then one day our faith will disappear and then we are more lost than before. I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic. If you have developed nihilistic or nothing matters, all is good/everything will be well -view in your interaction with Buddhadharma then Buddhadharma is not good for you. Therefore it is better for you to practice religion that is psychologically more familiar to your mindstream. But you know what broke the proverbial camels back? That you are blabbering about Kalachakra, no proper Buddhist gossips about Buddhist practice in the internet to random people, thats what made me so angry. If you truly are Buddhist you should be quiet on such things in the future, for us Buddhist the respect of practice is paramount and we do not want that people build misconceptions about them in their minds.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

  249. @Dicentim
    @Ano4

    My understanding is that the problem lies in the numbers, concentrations, socio-cultural origins and attitudes.

    Yes, there are too many and too many live concentrated in the so called cités; most have parents or grandparents who rode donkeys back home and had no grand plan when crossing over.

    The attitudes were formed by the lengthy colonial period and the subsequent violent conflict, so it is quite unacceptable for many of the so called Beurs to support the French national team, especially if it plays the old country; there are other things too, such as first names, pork, women's "honour" etc as well as a certain way in which the European French view their former subjects and that is reciprocated by the latter's contempt.

    Nevertheless, there is a lot of passing and integration going on; many smarter, more or less European looking (not that it is that important in a country as swarthy as France) people change names and truly integrate; they marry Europeans and have European kids; the often mentionned here Zidane is an example, but there are plenty of half-Algerian celebrities who are so fully accepted as French that most audiences don't even think of them as having some sort of other background: Alain Bashung, Etienne Daho, Isabelle Adjani, Jacques Villeret, Dany Boon and so on.

    The religious figures that you mentioned do not represent what the so called "Arabs" in France should ideally have been, unless of course the argument comes from an Islamic point of view; moderate and learned as they were, they would have been as alien as the Hassidim or Tibetan monks besides the fact that scholars are always a tiny fraction and cannot be emulated by most people.

    France is a secular country and should have projected its ideology and values more; dual citizenship should have been outlawed, millitary service compulsory (it was but many dual citizens chose to serve in Algeria or avoided it altogether in the confusion and fraud that such a situation created); of course, there should have been less of them and the housing situation should have been addressed better, but all is not lost, as said earlier, many integrate and when in third countries many Beurs act and feel pretty French.

    It is the delinquent rabble with no prospects and raised on hip-hop and Tony Montana that usually turn to Islam, Wahabi variety of course as the parents can only offer folklore; as I stated before, it works well in carceral environments, also in pre-carceral ones; it gives discipline and legitimacy to thugs, past, present and future.

    The point stands, Islam offers no answers to a modern civil society, be it of European, North African or any other origin; North Africa itself will grow out of it and France will be left with its social problem, not a colonial one, not a religious or ethnic one.

    Now, I hope that you will not be offended if I bring the question to you: Why choose that? Or is it just with non-Muslims? Do you argue against Islam when your interlocutors are Muslim? Or is it pointless to do so? You are an intelligent and well learned person, you don't descend from illiterate parents; Algeria didn't send illiterate people abroad to learn complex technical things; you also had all the opportunities that your eclectic background offered; Mischlings are a complicated lot, some pick one side or the other, some pick both or something else. What is it then? Looks? Name? Or is it just easier to pick the lesser side so to appear bigger, like that last drunkard from Tula who would be king of the Pygmies.

    I sincerely hope that you will find the path that matches your intelligence and soul for it can be different from the path that lesser ones (from both your sides) said it is.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I often agree with your well thought and well written comments. And I do not feel insulted by your take on my humble person because I do not think you meant to be insulting. And even if you were, I wouldn’t care much, that’s Internet and it ain’t real.

    [MORE]

    About taking sides, I have taken the side of opting out of Abrahamic faiths many years ago. But before I did, when I was in my early twenties, I read extensively on Orthodox Christianity and Islam and also on Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism (which in my humble opinion is the “original thing” that has been plagiarized by the Semites).

    There were many aspects of Islam that were beautiful and all in all more convincing than what comes with the Christian “package “. One of them was of course Tawheed, the monistic take on the Nature of God, pure, absolute and total Monotheism. But it also came with the problem of Theodicy, the existence of Evil and suffering. This is the only really weak point in the Islamic theology.

    From where I grew up and where I come from it was considered very dishonorable to gang up against a weaker opponent and kick him in the groin when he was already down. On this site, Islam is demonized and dehumanized non-stop and there is no one to remind people of the fact that all is not bad about it. And yes, when I debate with Muslims I always defend European culture, Christianity and even occasionally Jews and Judaism (although quite frankly it is difficult because of Jewish supremacist attitudes that prevail nowadays).

    As a an agnostic very strongly influenced by Zen, I believe that we all share a common human nature that should be nurtured and respected if we want to live in a better society. Demonizing anyone is the wrong message and wrong tool to any situation. Muslims are over one billion people, they are very diverse and come from different traditions. Painting the whole lot of them with the same brush is unwise.

    This is probably the worst possible attitude in France from all places, because of the historical background, the current highly flammable situation and the future that leads towards even more tension and conflict. Interestingly enough, the British seem to understand how to deal with their Muslims way better than the French do. This is nothing new of course, the Perfidious Albion has always been craftier than la douce France.

    The point stands, Islam offers no answers to a modern civil society, be it of European, North African or any other origin; North Africa itself will grow out of it and France will be left with its social problem, not a colonial one, not a religious or ethnic one.

    This is important. I do not believe that modern civil societies are here to stay. We are evolving but backwards. Archeofuturism is probably our unfortunate lot for the next decades. And in this case political Islam will be a force to be reckoned with. Especially in France. I frankly wish it was different because I don’t like Wahhabism, but I think the French will have to live through very interesting times. Faye and Houellebecq are probably unfortunately right in their controversial description of what lies ahead…

    Ce fût un plaisir d’échanger avec vous cher Dicentime. Merci pour votre temps. Portez-vous bien.

  250. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    Thanks for your insight. You should write more often about Tibetan Buddhism on UR because your English is quite good. Actually better than mine. Now if you just stop your angry fuming up my internet face, you might consider two things; first nothing you wrote really contradicts anything I wrote, and second this is a polemic web site and not an internet forum for an in depth detailed discussion about the evolution of Dharmic traditions. Therefore, on UR I very often use the most simplistic arguments, for the sake of brevity and clarity. One has to use skillful means according to the level of the audience.

    About Buddhism, you know absolutely nothing about my practice and my understanding. And frankly you wouldn't know even if I was staring in the face of yours and reciting Prajnaparamita Hrdaya Sutram or commenting on the Vimalakirti Nirdesa. Why am telling this? Because you practice Tantric Tibetan Buddhism, which in my humble opinion is the most removed from original Buddhadharma as taught by the Buddha himself. But I will not decry or criticize your religious tradition, because Buddha has taught us to be compassionate and understanding towards other sentient beings.

    I practice Ch'an/Zen that you certainly know squat about and I consider Cittamatra/Yogacara/Vijnanavada as the Buddhist school/sect of classical Indian Buddhism closest to my personal perspective on the nature of the Mind. Ch'an is very different from the Buryat Lamaism of yours, and I am frankly glad it is, because if it was not I might end up publishing angry diatribes on the internet sites as you do instead of working upon my spiritual understanding. Not a very pleasant perspective from where I stand...

    Finally, I find the attention you manifest towards the salvation of my soul very moving. But we both know what Anatta points to, don't we? And I hardly understand how your advice to worship Ishvara according to the Orthodox Christian tradition is a show of loving kindness towards my humble self.

    All in all you seem to use your ethnic background as a justification to parade a monopolistic take on Buddhadharma and you are down-talking me because according to your less than perfect understanding, Russians are just good to light some candles in front of some icons and chant Господи помилуй!

    В общем, остынь и отстань. То что ты Бурят отнюдь не означает что Буддизм во всех его проявлениях должен соответствовать твоим представлениям. Так что потише со своими духовными понтами.

    Будь здоров, не печалься да не гневайся!

    Good luck with your practice!

    😆

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I did not say that I am a Buryat, although I am partly. Also Prajnaparamita sutras are common and important for all Mahayana Buddhist traditions, Vimalakirti is not so important for Tibetan traditions but still part of the canon. And all Tibetan monks need to study Yogachara/Chittamatra philosophy in their curriculum and pass tests on it, or they can never become Geshe/Khenpo. See again? You probably have never studied under proper Buddhist teachers, so you continue blabbing your bullshit. And relations between authentic Chan lineages and Tibetan schools are quite good and warm, many times I have seen Chan monastics, especially nuns from Taiwan, celebrating with Tibetan monks Vesak and Buddha Purnima. Even some of them studying in Tibetan monasteries. If you would know something about real Buddhism that living people practice, you would know that there very rarely is problems between different Mahayana schools and the sense of unity is quite strong. Only with the Theravadas there are sometimes problems, for some of them are fundamentalists and believe that they only have monopoly on authentic Dhamma, but normally they are just noisy minority. And what you are blabbwring about “Tantric Tibetan Buddhism?” Again buzzword from wikipedia, if you would have elementary knowledge about living Tibetan spirituality, you would know that very few practice the way of the hidden mantra and Deity yoga practice. Almost all laypersons and most monks dont practice these kind of practices. How do I know? I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in Tibet. The Buddhist unity is much stronger than you think and similarities between different schools, even though tirthikas like you like to posit otherwise and postulate huge differences on superficial differences. But its probably understandable, for you have probably gotten your understanding from Japanese Zen, which most Buddhist monastics dont acknowledge as orthodox form of Buddhism. For like Buddha explains in monastic Vinaya, Pratimoksha/pattimoksha vows are the very basis of existence for Buddhadharma, when they are not followed there is no more Buddhadharma. In Japan there has been no monks since the Meiji restoration and almost all temples are family owned businesses, also Japanese Buddhism is hyper sectarian by its nature, no where else in the Buddhist world has there occured such splintering to hundreds of different schools, all who have taken some small part of Dharma and made it as their Central practice. Yes this is my metta/maitri/karuna and loving kindness towards you, stop spreading rumors and misconseptions to random people about Buddhism in internet. By the way I am a Russophile and I have lots of Russian friends who are earnest and good practitioners, but for most people converting is not good, for the symbolical and psychological space is very different between religions, one easily becomes spiritually homeless when changing religions. His holiness also discourages conversions without very strong resolve and years of pondering, for if we convert without strong conviction then one day our faith will disappear and then we are more lost than before. I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic. If you have developed nihilistic or nothing matters, all is good/everything will be well -view in your interaction with Buddhadharma then Buddhadharma is not good for you. Therefore it is better for you to practice religion that is psychologically more familiar to your mindstream. But you know what broke the proverbial camels back? That you are blabbering about Kalachakra, no proper Buddhist gossips about Buddhist practice in the internet to random people, thats what made me so angry. If you truly are Buddhist you should be quiet on such things in the future, for us Buddhist the respect of practice is paramount and we do not want that people build misconceptions about them in their minds.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    Somehow, I think that developing a healthy amount of nihilism is the appropriate and sane response to 90s Russia.

    , @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic
     
    .

    How can I be nihilistic if I believe that the Dharmadatu equates with the Tatagathgarbha and that both are in the final realization the true and the deepest nature of the Mind?

    You can always dismiss it or sneer at my understanding, but that is where I stand. I am firm in this realization and would not waver.

    I am sorry that I got you mad, that was none of my intentions. I understand that you would prefer Kalachakra Tantra to remain unknown to the multitudes, but that's internet for you and everything hidden shall be revealed one day.

    I understand that some Monotheists might feel less than happy about you equating them with ignorant bloodthirsty mlecchas to meet an unhappy ending when the Shambhala shall prevail upon them. But this is how your spiritual forebears described it a thousand years ago, and who am I to alter your Holy Scriptures.

    Dalai Lama is not a spiritual authority for me, Bodhidhama, Hui-Ke, Hui-Neng, Huángbò Xīyùn, Linji Yixuan and Xu Yun are my spiritual lineage. I know how Lamaists suppressed Ch'an in Tibet and Tarim bassin when it was under the Tibetan domination. I know why the Dunhuang library was hidden. Nevertheless, I don't feel anything negative towards the Yellow Hat Lamaism. I know that this is the Tibetan way of doing things. This is what was done by different Tibetan sects to one another for centuries. The Gelug are just the last in line enforcing their "Orthodoxy". Although Tibetan Lamaism has some great aspects about it. It is rather artistic with its complex rituals and it is attractive to the authority seeking people. Skillful means be what they are.

    And of course it is quite kind of you to have some Russian friends. This a demonstration of great open minded equanimity from your side. Same thing for the display of your metta and karuna towards me.

    Anyway, I do not like to have arguments about Buddhadharma. It is a very private affair for me, a very important thing in my life and I rarely discuss it seriously with anyone. In Ch'an we learn early that talking about Ch'an is a waste of breath. Better keep our breath for the Dhyana. Let's call it quits.

    Be well kalyanamitra.

    Удачи и всех благ...

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in INDIA. Made a small mistake and wrote Tibet and not India.

  251. There are four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism, largest of them is Dalai Lama’s school Gelug, originally it was called Kadam and it was established by Bengali monk named Atisha in early 11th century. Atisha belong to Mahasamghika school of Mahayana, which is one of the most ancient schools of Buddhism. Gelug proudly continues the tradition of Nalanda and ancient Indian Monastic universities. Most historians nowadays believe that Mahasamghika Vinaya is the earliest extant Vinaya, for it is the simplest and has no traces of editing. Sadly Gelugs follof Sarvastivada Vinaya for historical reasons that I am too lazy to explain right now.

    But people like ano4 love to spread 19th century European misconceptions about Buddhadharma. Oh yeah in Sri Lanka they have pure Buddhadharma and “lamaism” is just shamanism and Chinese Mahayana is just catholic style misunderstanding of early church.

  252. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I did not say that I am a Buryat, although I am partly. Also Prajnaparamita sutras are common and important for all Mahayana Buddhist traditions, Vimalakirti is not so important for Tibetan traditions but still part of the canon. And all Tibetan monks need to study Yogachara/Chittamatra philosophy in their curriculum and pass tests on it, or they can never become Geshe/Khenpo. See again? You probably have never studied under proper Buddhist teachers, so you continue blabbing your bullshit. And relations between authentic Chan lineages and Tibetan schools are quite good and warm, many times I have seen Chan monastics, especially nuns from Taiwan, celebrating with Tibetan monks Vesak and Buddha Purnima. Even some of them studying in Tibetan monasteries. If you would know something about real Buddhism that living people practice, you would know that there very rarely is problems between different Mahayana schools and the sense of unity is quite strong. Only with the Theravadas there are sometimes problems, for some of them are fundamentalists and believe that they only have monopoly on authentic Dhamma, but normally they are just noisy minority. And what you are blabbwring about "Tantric Tibetan Buddhism?" Again buzzword from wikipedia, if you would have elementary knowledge about living Tibetan spirituality, you would know that very few practice the way of the hidden mantra and Deity yoga practice. Almost all laypersons and most monks dont practice these kind of practices. How do I know? I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in Tibet. The Buddhist unity is much stronger than you think and similarities between different schools, even though tirthikas like you like to posit otherwise and postulate huge differences on superficial differences. But its probably understandable, for you have probably gotten your understanding from Japanese Zen, which most Buddhist monastics dont acknowledge as orthodox form of Buddhism. For like Buddha explains in monastic Vinaya, Pratimoksha/pattimoksha vows are the very basis of existence for Buddhadharma, when they are not followed there is no more Buddhadharma. In Japan there has been no monks since the Meiji restoration and almost all temples are family owned businesses, also Japanese Buddhism is hyper sectarian by its nature, no where else in the Buddhist world has there occured such splintering to hundreds of different schools, all who have taken some small part of Dharma and made it as their Central practice. Yes this is my metta/maitri/karuna and loving kindness towards you, stop spreading rumors and misconseptions to random people about Buddhism in internet. By the way I am a Russophile and I have lots of Russian friends who are earnest and good practitioners, but for most people converting is not good, for the symbolical and psychological space is very different between religions, one easily becomes spiritually homeless when changing religions. His holiness also discourages conversions without very strong resolve and years of pondering, for if we convert without strong conviction then one day our faith will disappear and then we are more lost than before. I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic. If you have developed nihilistic or nothing matters, all is good/everything will be well -view in your interaction with Buddhadharma then Buddhadharma is not good for you. Therefore it is better for you to practice religion that is psychologically more familiar to your mindstream. But you know what broke the proverbial camels back? That you are blabbering about Kalachakra, no proper Buddhist gossips about Buddhist practice in the internet to random people, thats what made me so angry. If you truly are Buddhist you should be quiet on such things in the future, for us Buddhist the respect of practice is paramount and we do not want that people build misconceptions about them in their minds.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    Somehow, I think that developing a healthy amount of nihilism is the appropriate and sane response to 90s Russia.

    • LOL: Ano4
  253. Ano4 do you even have a Buddhist teacher or temple or community? Its time to wake up. Reading D T Suzuki and claiming of understanding something about Dharma or even Zen is equivalent of silly American who claims some understanding of Christianity after reading book by Billy Graham. All Chan masters are grounded on Buddhist tradition, on eightfold path, four noble truths, have proper understanding of Pratimoksha, Agamas and Sutras. Chan is something that can be called as advanced Sutrayana, its not its own school or system of philosophy, maybe some deluded hippies in Kalifornia think so, or some larping monks in Japan, who really are entrepreneurs. In traditional and healthy Buddhist society Chan was reserved to highly achieved practitioners, who had already mastered the way of Sravakayana and were quite far in their studies and practice if Sutrayana. Time to wake up!

    • LOL: Ano4
  254. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I did not say that I am a Buryat, although I am partly. Also Prajnaparamita sutras are common and important for all Mahayana Buddhist traditions, Vimalakirti is not so important for Tibetan traditions but still part of the canon. And all Tibetan monks need to study Yogachara/Chittamatra philosophy in their curriculum and pass tests on it, or they can never become Geshe/Khenpo. See again? You probably have never studied under proper Buddhist teachers, so you continue blabbing your bullshit. And relations between authentic Chan lineages and Tibetan schools are quite good and warm, many times I have seen Chan monastics, especially nuns from Taiwan, celebrating with Tibetan monks Vesak and Buddha Purnima. Even some of them studying in Tibetan monasteries. If you would know something about real Buddhism that living people practice, you would know that there very rarely is problems between different Mahayana schools and the sense of unity is quite strong. Only with the Theravadas there are sometimes problems, for some of them are fundamentalists and believe that they only have monopoly on authentic Dhamma, but normally they are just noisy minority. And what you are blabbwring about "Tantric Tibetan Buddhism?" Again buzzword from wikipedia, if you would have elementary knowledge about living Tibetan spirituality, you would know that very few practice the way of the hidden mantra and Deity yoga practice. Almost all laypersons and most monks dont practice these kind of practices. How do I know? I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in Tibet. The Buddhist unity is much stronger than you think and similarities between different schools, even though tirthikas like you like to posit otherwise and postulate huge differences on superficial differences. But its probably understandable, for you have probably gotten your understanding from Japanese Zen, which most Buddhist monastics dont acknowledge as orthodox form of Buddhism. For like Buddha explains in monastic Vinaya, Pratimoksha/pattimoksha vows are the very basis of existence for Buddhadharma, when they are not followed there is no more Buddhadharma. In Japan there has been no monks since the Meiji restoration and almost all temples are family owned businesses, also Japanese Buddhism is hyper sectarian by its nature, no where else in the Buddhist world has there occured such splintering to hundreds of different schools, all who have taken some small part of Dharma and made it as their Central practice. Yes this is my metta/maitri/karuna and loving kindness towards you, stop spreading rumors and misconseptions to random people about Buddhism in internet. By the way I am a Russophile and I have lots of Russian friends who are earnest and good practitioners, but for most people converting is not good, for the symbolical and psychological space is very different between religions, one easily becomes spiritually homeless when changing religions. His holiness also discourages conversions without very strong resolve and years of pondering, for if we convert without strong conviction then one day our faith will disappear and then we are more lost than before. I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic. If you have developed nihilistic or nothing matters, all is good/everything will be well -view in your interaction with Buddhadharma then Buddhadharma is not good for you. Therefore it is better for you to practice religion that is psychologically more familiar to your mindstream. But you know what broke the proverbial camels back? That you are blabbering about Kalachakra, no proper Buddhist gossips about Buddhist practice in the internet to random people, thats what made me so angry. If you truly are Buddhist you should be quiet on such things in the future, for us Buddhist the respect of practice is paramount and we do not want that people build misconceptions about them in their minds.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic

    .

    How can I be nihilistic if I believe that the Dharmadatu equates with the Tatagathgarbha and that both are in the final realization the true and the deepest nature of the Mind?

    [MORE]

    You can always dismiss it or sneer at my understanding, but that is where I stand. I am firm in this realization and would not waver.

    I am sorry that I got you mad, that was none of my intentions. I understand that you would prefer Kalachakra Tantra to remain unknown to the multitudes, but that’s internet for you and everything hidden shall be revealed one day.

    I understand that some Monotheists might feel less than happy about you equating them with ignorant bloodthirsty mlecchas to meet an unhappy ending when the Shambhala shall prevail upon them. But this is how your spiritual forebears described it a thousand years ago, and who am I to alter your Holy Scriptures.

    Dalai Lama is not a spiritual authority for me, Bodhidhama, Hui-Ke, Hui-Neng, Huángbò Xīyùn, Linji Yixuan and Xu Yun are my spiritual lineage. I know how Lamaists suppressed Ch’an in Tibet and Tarim bassin when it was under the Tibetan domination. I know why the Dunhuang library was hidden. Nevertheless, I don’t feel anything negative towards the Yellow Hat Lamaism. I know that this is the Tibetan way of doing things. This is what was done by different Tibetan sects to one another for centuries. The Gelug are just the last in line enforcing their “Orthodoxy”. Although Tibetan Lamaism has some great aspects about it. It is rather artistic with its complex rituals and it is attractive to the authority seeking people. Skillful means be what they are.

    And of course it is quite kind of you to have some Russian friends. This a demonstration of great open minded equanimity from your side. Same thing for the display of your metta and karuna towards me.

    Anyway, I do not like to have arguments about Buddhadharma. It is a very private affair for me, a very important thing in my life and I rarely discuss it seriously with anyone. In Ch’an we learn early that talking about Ch’an is a waste of breath. Better keep our breath for the Dhyana. Let’s call it quits.

    Be well kalyanamitra.

    Удачи и всех благ…

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I try to explain this to you in a simple way. You are spreading confusion about the Dharma, for your knowledge and level of realization is not high enough for explaining it to people who have no familiarity with the Dharma. In Kalachakra there is not even once said that the mlecchas are muslims or monotheists, and the prophetical part of the Kalachakra is very minor compared to the actual practice that is more centered on balancing of ones energy with the greater cycles of nature and deity Yoga that is the bread and butter of Kalachakra. Actual Buddhist practitioners dont practice idle and speculative chatter with Dharma, especially with random people on internet, right now you are sowing seeds of misconseptions to the mindstreams of people who read your comments. You are making definitive statements about things that you have a very superficial knowledge. This is clearly a sign that you dont have a Buddhist guide nor teacher and you are not part of living tradition that we have, and it is very dangerous path to walk, for as long as our mind is deluded in samsaric existence it is not very trustworthy, it needs a community of monks that trace their lineage to the Buddha Shakyamuni and who follow rules laid by him. You clearly have read small facts there and there from the internet and you have build an erroneous view of Buddhist tradition. Proper Buddhists and Tibetan Buddhists cultivate non-sectarian attitude to Dharma, like there are many different diseases so there are different kinds of medicine, still one should not treat syphilis with insulin, right? Like your statement about Dunhuang, in those times there was no Gelug in Tibet and greatest Gelug masters have always learned from mamy different schools, even Je Tshongkapa himself said that one should learn from all (Buddhist) schools and see unity in all traditions. But for the medicine to work it must be applied in proper way under the guidance of the physician. For different personalities/beings are conditioned by different causes and relations. That is why we have different schools and only great masters can learn from multiple schools and even greater ones can mix the teachings. I have no desire to argue with you, but I am forced by your behaviour. I hope that you develope as a Buddhist, find a proper teacher and stop spreading half misconceptions half truths about the Dharma. There is a spiritual smugness in you, I have never met Russians with it, and I have Russian friends who truly are great Buddhist practitioners, some have even gone on the path of the Buddha himself and have become monks. This smugness is similar to American new age people. It is not grounded on our living tradition.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

  255. @Hyperborean
    @AaronB

    The simplest answer is probably that his views are influenced by his friendliness toward his Berber friends, though it doesn't account for the strange Perennial-esque religious prophecies.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Possibly. If so, he seems to have developed a deep loyalty to a foreign culture. The “leapfrogging” loyalty George Orwell described the Left of his time as having toward Russia.

    He even dreams of Islam triumphing over Orthodox Christianity, supposedly his birth religion!

    I honestly did not know that this kind of “transferred loyalty” existed among Russians – I thought it was a purely Western phenomena. Transferred loyalty is a nice way of putting it – a harsher way is self-hate and being a cuck.

    I guess eccentrics and weirdos exist in all countries. Why shouldn’t there be some unfortunate sad Russian who has decided to identify with some foreign culture in decline?

    On the other hand, why not be honest about your allegiances? Why the whole pretense of being neutral? Why pretend your primary affiliation is Zen?

    I guess in Russia its still embarrassing.

    And then the Europe Europa character who claimed to be British and suddenly vanished after telling us 1) Britain is a fake country 2) Islam is a legitimate European religion 3) European whites should stay away from Jews.

    I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but its hard not to notice patterns.

    Eh, whatever ano4 is his its clear now what he’s about.

  256. @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    Vedanta uses sometimes similar terminology with Madhyamaka philosophy of Mahayana, but its really not similar to Buddhism for it posits that only Brahman is truly real and everything else is an illusion. This is very different from Buddhism that does not believe in Brahman/Ishvara/God. Maybe i will start commenting how Islam is practically Judaism in disguise. Would that be nice?

    Replies: @AaronB

    Yes, I did not mean that Vedanta is identical to Madhyamika. Merely that it was heavily influenced by it, to the point where it transformed Hinduism.

    The main lingering difference is that Vedanta still permits some positive terminology in describing ultimate reality (Brahman), whereas Madhyamika says no words whatsoever can capture it. (Nothing).

    But Vedanta also emphasizes that one cannot use concepts and words to capture ultimate reality, as if in a net. So the two do remain remarkably close.

    But where you place your emphasis is important – and there is a reason Buddhism is more influential that Vedanta.

    As a Buddhist shouldn’t you be more chilled out 🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    My Mongolian blood makes chilling out quite hard...

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  257. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic
     
    .

    How can I be nihilistic if I believe that the Dharmadatu equates with the Tatagathgarbha and that both are in the final realization the true and the deepest nature of the Mind?

    You can always dismiss it or sneer at my understanding, but that is where I stand. I am firm in this realization and would not waver.

    I am sorry that I got you mad, that was none of my intentions. I understand that you would prefer Kalachakra Tantra to remain unknown to the multitudes, but that's internet for you and everything hidden shall be revealed one day.

    I understand that some Monotheists might feel less than happy about you equating them with ignorant bloodthirsty mlecchas to meet an unhappy ending when the Shambhala shall prevail upon them. But this is how your spiritual forebears described it a thousand years ago, and who am I to alter your Holy Scriptures.

    Dalai Lama is not a spiritual authority for me, Bodhidhama, Hui-Ke, Hui-Neng, Huángbò Xīyùn, Linji Yixuan and Xu Yun are my spiritual lineage. I know how Lamaists suppressed Ch'an in Tibet and Tarim bassin when it was under the Tibetan domination. I know why the Dunhuang library was hidden. Nevertheless, I don't feel anything negative towards the Yellow Hat Lamaism. I know that this is the Tibetan way of doing things. This is what was done by different Tibetan sects to one another for centuries. The Gelug are just the last in line enforcing their "Orthodoxy". Although Tibetan Lamaism has some great aspects about it. It is rather artistic with its complex rituals and it is attractive to the authority seeking people. Skillful means be what they are.

    And of course it is quite kind of you to have some Russian friends. This a demonstration of great open minded equanimity from your side. Same thing for the display of your metta and karuna towards me.

    Anyway, I do not like to have arguments about Buddhadharma. It is a very private affair for me, a very important thing in my life and I rarely discuss it seriously with anyone. In Ch'an we learn early that talking about Ch'an is a waste of breath. Better keep our breath for the Dhyana. Let's call it quits.

    Be well kalyanamitra.

    Удачи и всех благ...

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I try to explain this to you in a simple way. You are spreading confusion about the Dharma, for your knowledge and level of realization is not high enough for explaining it to people who have no familiarity with the Dharma. In Kalachakra there is not even once said that the mlecchas are muslims or monotheists, and the prophetical part of the Kalachakra is very minor compared to the actual practice that is more centered on balancing of ones energy with the greater cycles of nature and deity Yoga that is the bread and butter of Kalachakra. Actual Buddhist practitioners dont practice idle and speculative chatter with Dharma, especially with random people on internet, right now you are sowing seeds of misconseptions to the mindstreams of people who read your comments. You are making definitive statements about things that you have a very superficial knowledge. This is clearly a sign that you dont have a Buddhist guide nor teacher and you are not part of living tradition that we have, and it is very dangerous path to walk, for as long as our mind is deluded in samsaric existence it is not very trustworthy, it needs a community of monks that trace their lineage to the Buddha Shakyamuni and who follow rules laid by him. You clearly have read small facts there and there from the internet and you have build an erroneous view of Buddhist tradition. Proper Buddhists and Tibetan Buddhists cultivate non-sectarian attitude to Dharma, like there are many different diseases so there are different kinds of medicine, still one should not treat syphilis with insulin, right? Like your statement about Dunhuang, in those times there was no Gelug in Tibet and greatest Gelug masters have always learned from mamy different schools, even Je Tshongkapa himself said that one should learn from all (Buddhist) schools and see unity in all traditions. But for the medicine to work it must be applied in proper way under the guidance of the physician. For different personalities/beings are conditioned by different causes and relations. That is why we have different schools and only great masters can learn from multiple schools and even greater ones can mix the teachings. I have no desire to argue with you, but I am forced by your behaviour. I hope that you develope as a Buddhist, find a proper teacher and stop spreading half misconceptions half truths about the Dharma. There is a spiritual smugness in you, I have never met Russians with it, and I have Russian friends who truly are great Buddhist practitioners, some have even gone on the path of the Buddha himself and have become monks. This smugness is similar to American new age people. It is not grounded on our living tradition.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    All sentient beings are conditioned. Each one of us has his own path to tread. My mindstream has its own karmic influences that are unlike those of any other. We are different you and I, but I do not disregard or downplay your understanding. I am actually thankful that you took your time to share your thoughts, convictions and experience with me.

    Now, regarding Buddhist schools there is a great diversity in their opinions and methods, as you aptly wrote yourself about it: there are innumerable spiritual states that require innumerable skillful means to guide them towards a positive outcome. Your spiritual tradition has great achievements in its record and I respect that.

    But you do not have a monopoly on the interpretation of the Buddhism. Other people will have other opinions that might appear incorrect to your understanding. Although I do not think I am entitled to give you any advice whatsoever, maybe being a little less attached to your grasp of your Buddhist tradition might be not such a bad thing.

    Again, I never discuss Ch'an. It is not a tradition to be talked about. It is a tradition to be lived through with every breath, every joy and every pain. For me Tushita Heaven or Avici Hell are both the hall of the Pure Ch'an. They are both equally pure, silent and empty. This is poetry if course, but it is all I have to say about it.

    Thanks again for your kind wishes of spiritual achievement in my training.

    I wish you the same on your own path.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    I am a lay practitioner and I dont handle even the basics of Dharma yet, in Buddhism we believe in union Boddhicitta and Sunyata, of compassion and wisdom, without one there is no another. How I can truly help people if I dont know the causes of their suffering and means to eliminate it? One can help forever others without any results, and one can build intellectual formulations without any help to oneself or others. For truly to be wise one must know the causes of suffering and the means of eliminating those causes, but that knowledge will never arise without great compassion that drives being to help others at any cost. For truly to be compassionate one needs wisdom to understand ones nature that is dependent on others, but both compassion and wisdom cannot arise alone, they need each other and they rise together. Its still little bit hard for me explain these things in English, but it puzzles me how westerners start right away to study topics that in Buddhist context are reserved for those who have already some kind of state of realization. Or have studied long and hard. Our faith and worldview is not purely intellectual and our emotions and goodwill have a strong power on our perception of reality.

    Replies: @Ano4

  258. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Yes, I did not mean that Vedanta is identical to Madhyamika. Merely that it was heavily influenced by it, to the point where it transformed Hinduism.

    The main lingering difference is that Vedanta still permits some positive terminology in describing ultimate reality (Brahman), whereas Madhyamika says no words whatsoever can capture it. (Nothing).

    But Vedanta also emphasizes that one cannot use concepts and words to capture ultimate reality, as if in a net. So the two do remain remarkably close.

    But where you place your emphasis is important - and there is a reason Buddhism is more influential that Vedanta.

    As a Buddhist shouldn't you be more chilled out :)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    My Mongolian blood makes chilling out quite hard…

    • LOL: AaronB, Ano4
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    I can sympathize with that(part Mongol as well).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  259. @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    My Mongolian blood makes chilling out quite hard...

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I can sympathize with that(part Mongol as well).

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Bayarlalaa for your kind comment. I presume from Inner Mongolia? Which part? I hope to visit that wonderful place again in near future, I have some friends living in Hohhot.

    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche, there are many different kinds of Buddhist people as there are westerners. Buddha's own people Shakyas were known from their fierce temper and hotheadedness. For me Buddhadharma is most important thing in life, very salvation and solution to all lifes problems, so is it a wonder that I get flustered when some new age slav blabbers about it again and again. (No offence towards Slavs, compared to the westerners ano4 type is very rare) But now when I think about it, as a Jew you need to have a very thick skin.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Daniel Chieh

  260. @Hyperborean
    @Gerard-Mandela

    You launch elliptical, vulgar, repetitive and generally incoherent against Ukrainians, Poles and Balts but Turks is where you decide to be "reasonable"?

    You should kept your sex change, it would have been more honest.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Gerard-Mandela

    and generally incoherent against Ukrainians

    You give me no other option but to reproduce this masterpiece of a comment:

    1. Is there even a city/town/village named after a “Ukrainian” place from the sadist Banderetard community in North America? Of course not. There is only the Novorossiyan areas and Kiev that have expatriated place names.i.e from the Russian world. You have got places in America named after Moscow, Saint Petersburg( Florida), plenty called Odessa, Kazan, Kiev……where is the ukrop place?….none ,because there has never been such a country. In 200 years of immigration to the “New World” there would be such names if such a country existed….which it does not

    2. Did you even see the video that I linked you cretin- a load of ukrainian “top” officials..and not a single one speaking “Ukrainian”. I forgot that Turchynov was acting president..he might be even worse than Avakov in speaking it

    3. There is no such thing as “Ukrainian nation” and certainly not this concept called “Ukrainophobia”. There is no “Ukrainianism” in the North American community…merely anti-Russianism, that is more than willing to destroy the fake ” old country” of Ukraine, again and again in pursuit of it, in their sick sadist minds

    4. What there is though is Russian world, Russian people , of which Ukraine was and is a very important part for the last millennium. It has it’s different flavour of Russianian – just like in North Russia, Belarus,Siberia, South Russia- but it’s still undeniably Russian. Texans and New Yorkers and Californians have big differences in styles, food, dialect, lifestyle- bit they are all still undeniably Americans and could never be mistaken for anything else.For Russia/Ukraine this same point is a million times closer – clearly we are the same people

    5. LOL “Ukrainian” words are so non-existent that the minuscule ones that are out there are basically cultural symbols or events in themselves in Russia! You see it in Runet all the time. Ironically using the very few Ukrop fews out there in some viral/meme thing taking the p*ss out of the latest tragi-comic thing to come out of Ukraine. Even for ukrop nationalists these small number of “Ukrainian” words are like cultural symbols. Does that strike you as being the characteristics of a proper language? Of course not

    6. It’s nauseating for the UPA vermin community in North America to even claim to be Ukrainian. UPA was/is a sick cult– their flag was red for the “Blood lost by Ukrainians”, and Black for the rich black Earth. Seeing as practically all these UPA trash had absolutely zero connection to any of this “blood” lost over the centuries or these wars, and Galicia is the least Black soil part of Ukropia (most of these UPA trash would have lived in areas with zero of it)…what we have are sadistic CIA smuggled expats descended from an already pseudo-expat community (Galicia) claiming on some imaginary cultural heritage! WTF

    7. Even for this stupid habit of anglicizing words in Russian that are not exclusively US/UK invented technology or cultural terms…Ukrainian follows the exact same pattern as Russia (well, directly after Russia). Seeing as most science, cultural, technology and everything else in “Ukrainian” is a Russian created word – this further emphasises my point

    8. It gets even worse – the top sadist Ukrop historian, leading their Institute of National Memory (or whatever this nonsense is called)……the main guy until recently was the POS called Viatrovich. Barely in his mid-30’s. Where had he just spent 5 years of his infant career? In US , LOL, in this same Harvard Ukrainian Institute BS! Just some Soros-funded , lying trash . It’s inexcusable . An actual nation would have had people available to lead it who had spent 30+ years researching IN UKRAINE.

    9. With Yandex restricted in Ukraine, I checked what the top Googled terms were – naturally, there were more Russians ( and Jews) than Ukrainians in the top 10 list

  261. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I try to explain this to you in a simple way. You are spreading confusion about the Dharma, for your knowledge and level of realization is not high enough for explaining it to people who have no familiarity with the Dharma. In Kalachakra there is not even once said that the mlecchas are muslims or monotheists, and the prophetical part of the Kalachakra is very minor compared to the actual practice that is more centered on balancing of ones energy with the greater cycles of nature and deity Yoga that is the bread and butter of Kalachakra. Actual Buddhist practitioners dont practice idle and speculative chatter with Dharma, especially with random people on internet, right now you are sowing seeds of misconseptions to the mindstreams of people who read your comments. You are making definitive statements about things that you have a very superficial knowledge. This is clearly a sign that you dont have a Buddhist guide nor teacher and you are not part of living tradition that we have, and it is very dangerous path to walk, for as long as our mind is deluded in samsaric existence it is not very trustworthy, it needs a community of monks that trace their lineage to the Buddha Shakyamuni and who follow rules laid by him. You clearly have read small facts there and there from the internet and you have build an erroneous view of Buddhist tradition. Proper Buddhists and Tibetan Buddhists cultivate non-sectarian attitude to Dharma, like there are many different diseases so there are different kinds of medicine, still one should not treat syphilis with insulin, right? Like your statement about Dunhuang, in those times there was no Gelug in Tibet and greatest Gelug masters have always learned from mamy different schools, even Je Tshongkapa himself said that one should learn from all (Buddhist) schools and see unity in all traditions. But for the medicine to work it must be applied in proper way under the guidance of the physician. For different personalities/beings are conditioned by different causes and relations. That is why we have different schools and only great masters can learn from multiple schools and even greater ones can mix the teachings. I have no desire to argue with you, but I am forced by your behaviour. I hope that you develope as a Buddhist, find a proper teacher and stop spreading half misconceptions half truths about the Dharma. There is a spiritual smugness in you, I have never met Russians with it, and I have Russian friends who truly are great Buddhist practitioners, some have even gone on the path of the Buddha himself and have become monks. This smugness is similar to American new age people. It is not grounded on our living tradition.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    All sentient beings are conditioned. Each one of us has his own path to tread. My mindstream has its own karmic influences that are unlike those of any other. We are different you and I, but I do not disregard or downplay your understanding. I am actually thankful that you took your time to share your thoughts, convictions and experience with me.

    [MORE]

    Now, regarding Buddhist schools there is a great diversity in their opinions and methods, as you aptly wrote yourself about it: there are innumerable spiritual states that require innumerable skillful means to guide them towards a positive outcome. Your spiritual tradition has great achievements in its record and I respect that.

    But you do not have a monopoly on the interpretation of the Buddhism. Other people will have other opinions that might appear incorrect to your understanding. Although I do not think I am entitled to give you any advice whatsoever, maybe being a little less attached to your grasp of your Buddhist tradition might be not such a bad thing.

    Again, I never discuss Ch’an. It is not a tradition to be talked about. It is a tradition to be lived through with every breath, every joy and every pain. For me Tushita Heaven or Avici Hell are both the hall of the Pure Ch’an. They are both equally pure, silent and empty. This is poetry if course, but it is all I have to say about it.

    Thanks again for your kind wishes of spiritual achievement in my training.

    I wish you the same on your own path.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Do you have problems with understanding of written English? Where I claimed monopoly of interpretation of Buddhism? My point is that there is no Buddhism without Sangha, and you cannot practice or be a Buddhist without the Sangha, if you disagree then you disagree with the Shakyamuni himself and all the different traditions and schools have consensus on this. Please if you want to practice Dharma then find a teacher and community to practice it and stop reading random stuff on internet.

    I am tired of arguing with you, my aim is achieved, I have shown to others that you are not a legitimate representative of Buddhadharma with your eclectic views. And then when your mistaken views lead you to Avici the demons will have a big laugh when you say that it all will be hall of pure dhyana for you, BIG WORDS, BIG WORDS. One of the greatest sins in Buddhadharma is to claim spiritual realization which one is not truly capable, sure mark of those destined to Naraka. Very very few monks would even claim that kind of realization that Avici is experientially same for them as Tushita. But its great ano4 that you have achieved the eight ground/bhumi of Boddhisattvahood. Please think before you write.

  262. @Hyperborean
    @Gerard-Mandela

    You launch elliptical, vulgar, repetitive and generally incoherent against Ukrainians, Poles and Balts but Turks is where you decide to be "reasonable"?

    You should kept your sex change, it would have been more honest.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Gerard-Mandela

    Turkey has easily done the same, or maybe even more, than Poland and the Baltics to deserve to join the EU. It hasn’t had the parasite free money handed to it like Poland

    It’s immigrants in the west are far less proportionately criminal lowlifes than the Poles or Balts. Turks in Germany over 50 years are far better behaved than Poles in Germany and certainly Poles in UK. You will get more technically qualified professionals from Poland than Turkey ( Communist legacy) but a much more positive cultural impact from Turks.

    Despite some despicable actions in Syria,Turley makes plenty of sensible, practical decisions in relationship with Russia….and takes good economic decisions – investment, including non-subversive investment in Tatarstan and Kavkaz regions with Russia, no problems ( in fact good co-operation) on gas pipelines and delivery, excellent trade and millions of us go there each year on Holiday and have an excellent time.

    Turkey also has not elected 2 homosexuals to be president in the last 15 years – the rubber-faced creep Duda is blatantly one, as was the other in the plane crash

    Poland,Ukrop and Baltics all do clearly anti-Russian policy….Turkey does not – of course I am going to back Turkey ahead of these nutjobs you dimwit!

    • Replies: @Dicentim
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I'm a bit confused but isn't the European Union supposed to be composed of European nations? Plenty of East European criminals around but they are kind of European, you know; not that I care much about Eastern Europe and even less about Ukraine.

    I also am aware of quite a bit of Turkish and Kurdish criminality going on in different European countries as in heroin trade etc.

    Not that I'm a fan of the EU or of alternative lifestyles but I don't think that not electing homosexuals to high offices is one of the criteria for joining that supranational organisation.

    Same goes for friendliness towards Russia and investments made in its ethnic republics; Russia is not yet part of the EU.

    And what is all that about positive cultural impact? Do you mean kebab joints? And you have a good time in Turkey? Sounds fascinating, please tell us more about it.

    So you are a Russian campaigning for Turkey's EU membership, right? Is it something like a Trojan horse stratagem?

    Or perhaps, all those East European countries should leave the EU and so can the West European ones too, so a new EU can rise instead with Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia Herzegovina and Qatar as members pending other Arab League members' integration.

  263. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    All sentient beings are conditioned. Each one of us has his own path to tread. My mindstream has its own karmic influences that are unlike those of any other. We are different you and I, but I do not disregard or downplay your understanding. I am actually thankful that you took your time to share your thoughts, convictions and experience with me.

    Now, regarding Buddhist schools there is a great diversity in their opinions and methods, as you aptly wrote yourself about it: there are innumerable spiritual states that require innumerable skillful means to guide them towards a positive outcome. Your spiritual tradition has great achievements in its record and I respect that.

    But you do not have a monopoly on the interpretation of the Buddhism. Other people will have other opinions that might appear incorrect to your understanding. Although I do not think I am entitled to give you any advice whatsoever, maybe being a little less attached to your grasp of your Buddhist tradition might be not such a bad thing.

    Again, I never discuss Ch'an. It is not a tradition to be talked about. It is a tradition to be lived through with every breath, every joy and every pain. For me Tushita Heaven or Avici Hell are both the hall of the Pure Ch'an. They are both equally pure, silent and empty. This is poetry if course, but it is all I have to say about it.

    Thanks again for your kind wishes of spiritual achievement in my training.

    I wish you the same on your own path.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Do you have problems with understanding of written English? Where I claimed monopoly of interpretation of Buddhism? My point is that there is no Buddhism without Sangha, and you cannot practice or be a Buddhist without the Sangha, if you disagree then you disagree with the Shakyamuni himself and all the different traditions and schools have consensus on this. Please if you want to practice Dharma then find a teacher and community to practice it and stop reading random stuff on internet.

    I am tired of arguing with you, my aim is achieved, I have shown to others that you are not a legitimate representative of Buddhadharma with your eclectic views. And then when your mistaken views lead you to Avici the demons will have a big laugh when you say that it all will be hall of pure dhyana for you, BIG WORDS, BIG WORDS. One of the greatest sins in Buddhadharma is to claim spiritual realization which one is not truly capable, sure mark of those destined to Naraka. Very very few monks would even claim that kind of realization that Avici is experientially same for them as Tushita. But its great ano4 that you have achieved the eight ground/bhumi of Boddhisattvahood. Please think before you write.

  264. @Gerard-Mandela
    @A123


    The reason why you see a difference is the Hungarian and Polish people have sufficient back bone to oppose the derangement of Mullah Merkel.
     
    LOL.....Hungary I can accept, to include the Polish people in that is cretinous. Poland is the biggest prostitute state there is, millions of them living in Germany ( and UK), giving absolutely nothing good in return, the country is basically semi-nice Warsaw and Krakow with the rest of it basically being Albania.

    It has such abysmal cultural achievement over 500 years for such a relatively big European country....the chances are that this post I am writing now is superior to any cultural success obtained by a Pole, ever.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Amiga

    Of course poland in the last 500 years became the capital of jewery after being expulsed from western europe , in 1600 30% of the population were jews and like everything jews touch trasform into shit poland would be no different , is only after the purification of 1945 that poland is starting to grow again while usa the central capital of jewery today is imploding for the same reason once poland did .

  265. @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    I can sympathize with that(part Mongol as well).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Bayarlalaa for your kind comment. I presume from Inner Mongolia? Which part? I hope to visit that wonderful place again in near future, I have some friends living in Hohhot.

    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche, there are many different kinds of Buddhist people as there are westerners. Buddha’s own people Shakyas were known from their fierce temper and hotheadedness. For me Buddhadharma is most important thing in life, very salvation and solution to all lifes problems, so is it a wonder that I get flustered when some new age slav blabbers about it again and again. (No offence towards Slavs, compared to the westerners ano4 type is very rare) But now when I think about it, as a Jew you need to have a very thick skin.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi


    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche,
     
    I actually agree with you. And some Tibetan forms of Buddhism are very fierce. In Tibetan Tantric Buddhism there are many different approaches depending on temperament - some very fierce.

    The idea of the calm Buddhist is as superficial as the typical Western motion of Emptiness as genuine Emptiness.

    While I have at various times been inspired by all forms of Buddhism, I am most influenced by Chan and Dzogchen - to me, the original Buddhist idea of "no desire" logically must ultimately mean let everything be as it is, and don't mess with your mind. Any attempt to change anything - including your mind - is a form of desire. Wanting not to desire is desire. But then, any artificial attempt to kill the urge to change anything is also desire.

    So what are we left with in this absurd double-bind? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which simply means everything you do - or don't do - is a form of desire. Which means don't consciously contrive to do - or not do - anything. Give up. Go with the flow. You can't escape the trap. So be fierce, if you are fierce. Artificial calmness is not necessary.

    What comes with this is an altered perception of the nature of reality. If you can't do or not do anything, then maybe there is no separate you as an agent. The world of entirely separate objects is an illusion. And if everything is related to everything, then everything is ok. Whatever you do is on some level an expression of the underlying perfection.

    I know on some level this can be seen as a repudiation of Buddhism's fundamental principles - especially striving - and Chan and Dzogchen have an ambiguous, quasi-heretical status, but I think it is actually a development of its logic.

    This of course is just my opinion and feel free to disagree. I am of course not a Buddhist, I have only been inspired by Buddhism.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    I am actually completely sinicized; my family was given land in Shanghai after being recognized for our participation in the Ming invasion of Vietnam. At this point, we are 80-90 percent Han and I have been reading about more the more muscular forms of Buddhism.

    But I deeply empathize with the feel of "the blood" or "the fury" which can easily rise up, which I think is very much a Mongolian genetic relic. I've always been noted for being too fond of conflict by other Han Chinese, but frankly I think they're just wusses.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  266. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I did not say that I am a Buryat, although I am partly. Also Prajnaparamita sutras are common and important for all Mahayana Buddhist traditions, Vimalakirti is not so important for Tibetan traditions but still part of the canon. And all Tibetan monks need to study Yogachara/Chittamatra philosophy in their curriculum and pass tests on it, or they can never become Geshe/Khenpo. See again? You probably have never studied under proper Buddhist teachers, so you continue blabbing your bullshit. And relations between authentic Chan lineages and Tibetan schools are quite good and warm, many times I have seen Chan monastics, especially nuns from Taiwan, celebrating with Tibetan monks Vesak and Buddha Purnima. Even some of them studying in Tibetan monasteries. If you would know something about real Buddhism that living people practice, you would know that there very rarely is problems between different Mahayana schools and the sense of unity is quite strong. Only with the Theravadas there are sometimes problems, for some of them are fundamentalists and believe that they only have monopoly on authentic Dhamma, but normally they are just noisy minority. And what you are blabbwring about "Tantric Tibetan Buddhism?" Again buzzword from wikipedia, if you would have elementary knowledge about living Tibetan spirituality, you would know that very few practice the way of the hidden mantra and Deity yoga practice. Almost all laypersons and most monks dont practice these kind of practices. How do I know? I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in Tibet. The Buddhist unity is much stronger than you think and similarities between different schools, even though tirthikas like you like to posit otherwise and postulate huge differences on superficial differences. But its probably understandable, for you have probably gotten your understanding from Japanese Zen, which most Buddhist monastics dont acknowledge as orthodox form of Buddhism. For like Buddha explains in monastic Vinaya, Pratimoksha/pattimoksha vows are the very basis of existence for Buddhadharma, when they are not followed there is no more Buddhadharma. In Japan there has been no monks since the Meiji restoration and almost all temples are family owned businesses, also Japanese Buddhism is hyper sectarian by its nature, no where else in the Buddhist world has there occured such splintering to hundreds of different schools, all who have taken some small part of Dharma and made it as their Central practice. Yes this is my metta/maitri/karuna and loving kindness towards you, stop spreading rumors and misconseptions to random people about Buddhism in internet. By the way I am a Russophile and I have lots of Russian friends who are earnest and good practitioners, but for most people converting is not good, for the symbolical and psychological space is very different between religions, one easily becomes spiritually homeless when changing religions. His holiness also discourages conversions without very strong resolve and years of pondering, for if we convert without strong conviction then one day our faith will disappear and then we are more lost than before. I am too lazy to search for that one comment where you said to Mr. hack how you understand Gods will and different religions, but it was clearly nihilistic. If you have developed nihilistic or nothing matters, all is good/everything will be well -view in your interaction with Buddhadharma then Buddhadharma is not good for you. Therefore it is better for you to practice religion that is psychologically more familiar to your mindstream. But you know what broke the proverbial camels back? That you are blabbering about Kalachakra, no proper Buddhist gossips about Buddhist practice in the internet to random people, thats what made me so angry. If you truly are Buddhist you should be quiet on such things in the future, for us Buddhist the respect of practice is paramount and we do not want that people build misconceptions about them in their minds.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    I have stayed multiple times for many months in the largest Tibetan monastery universities, both in China and in exile in INDIA. Made a small mistake and wrote Tibet and not India.

  267. @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Bayarlalaa for your kind comment. I presume from Inner Mongolia? Which part? I hope to visit that wonderful place again in near future, I have some friends living in Hohhot.

    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche, there are many different kinds of Buddhist people as there are westerners. Buddha's own people Shakyas were known from their fierce temper and hotheadedness. For me Buddhadharma is most important thing in life, very salvation and solution to all lifes problems, so is it a wonder that I get flustered when some new age slav blabbers about it again and again. (No offence towards Slavs, compared to the westerners ano4 type is very rare) But now when I think about it, as a Jew you need to have a very thick skin.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Daniel Chieh

    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche,

    I actually agree with you. And some Tibetan forms of Buddhism are very fierce. In Tibetan Tantric Buddhism there are many different approaches depending on temperament – some very fierce.

    The idea of the calm Buddhist is as superficial as the typical Western motion of Emptiness as genuine Emptiness.

    While I have at various times been inspired by all forms of Buddhism, I am most influenced by Chan and Dzogchen – to me, the original Buddhist idea of “no desire” logically must ultimately mean let everything be as it is, and don’t mess with your mind. Any attempt to change anything – including your mind – is a form of desire. Wanting not to desire is desire. But then, any artificial attempt to kill the urge to change anything is also desire.

    So what are we left with in this absurd double-bind? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Which simply means everything you do – or don’t do – is a form of desire. Which means don’t consciously contrive to do – or not do – anything. Give up. Go with the flow. You can’t escape the trap. So be fierce, if you are fierce. Artificial calmness is not necessary.

    What comes with this is an altered perception of the nature of reality. If you can’t do or not do anything, then maybe there is no separate you as an agent. The world of entirely separate objects is an illusion. And if everything is related to everything, then everything is ok. Whatever you do is on some level an expression of the underlying perfection.

    I know on some level this can be seen as a repudiation of Buddhism’s fundamental principles – especially striving – and Chan and Dzogchen have an ambiguous, quasi-heretical status, but I think it is actually a development of its logic.

    This of course is just my opinion and feel free to disagree. I am of course not a Buddhist, I have only been inspired by Buddhism.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    There is also constructive desire, like wanting to build school or well being of ones parents, Chanda in Buddhist texts. Of course Buddhas have desire to liberate all beings from Samsara. And sometimes there are good kind of delusions and afflictions that create better conditions for individual in future. Shantideva did write about them Bodhisattvacaryavatara. Buddhadharma very easily becomes poison if one tries to learn it alone without guidance, especially with westerners and Jews(Jews are not always in my opinion westerners) for language that it wields differs so strongly from what western psyche is used to. I cannot comment on Dzogchen, too high above my level. Although one of my relatives and one my good monk friend practices it. In this life Foundational vehicle/Shravakayana and Sutrayana are enough for me, and I would be happy if I would develop well grounded understanding of it. Although it would please me if I could one day learn about Buddhist logics, developed by Dignaga.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    Chan and Dzogchen have heretical status only among the Theravadas, they are not part of my Gelug school, but many high Gelug lamas practice Dzogchen, even the Dalai Lama. In my limited understanding Madhyamika-Prasangika, Lamrim, Anuttarayoga Tantra is enough for enlightenment, oh its enough for me at least. Really guys we Mahayanists are one big family, except Japanese fakes. I have stayed in Vietnamese and Chinese temples and never heard that any monk says that Tibetan schools are heretic, nor when I have been in big Buddhist lectures or gatherings its quite common that Taiwanese or Vietnamese monks attend on lectures by his holiness. Among Theravada yes there is some fundamentalism and belief of being true or authentic Dhamma among heretics, but rarely there are complications because of it, and some Theravada monks have very open view towards Mahayana. But everything that I write is just anecdotal knowledge, or empirical based on my visits on all major Buddhist holy places in India multiple times(plus Lumbini in Nepal).

  268. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Hyperborean

    Turkey has easily done the same, or maybe even more, than Poland and the Baltics to deserve to join the EU. It hasn't had the parasite free money handed to it like Poland

    It's immigrants in the west are far less proportionately criminal lowlifes than the Poles or Balts. Turks in Germany over 50 years are far better behaved than Poles in Germany and certainly Poles in UK. You will get more technically qualified professionals from Poland than Turkey ( Communist legacy) but a much more positive cultural impact from Turks.

    Despite some despicable actions in Syria,Turley makes plenty of sensible, practical decisions in relationship with Russia....and takes good economic decisions - investment, including non-subversive investment in Tatarstan and Kavkaz regions with Russia, no problems ( in fact good co-operation) on gas pipelines and delivery, excellent trade and millions of us go there each year on Holiday and have an excellent time.

    Turkey also has not elected 2 homosexuals to be president in the last 15 years - the rubber-faced creep Duda is blatantly one, as was the other in the plane crash

    Poland,Ukrop and Baltics all do clearly anti-Russian policy....Turkey does not - of course I am going to back Turkey ahead of these nutjobs you dimwit!

    Replies: @Dicentim

    I’m a bit confused but isn’t the European Union supposed to be composed of European nations? Plenty of East European criminals around but they are kind of European, you know; not that I care much about Eastern Europe and even less about Ukraine.

    I also am aware of quite a bit of Turkish and Kurdish criminality going on in different European countries as in heroin trade etc.

    Not that I’m a fan of the EU or of alternative lifestyles but I don’t think that not electing homosexuals to high offices is one of the criteria for joining that supranational organisation.

    Same goes for friendliness towards Russia and investments made in its ethnic republics; Russia is not yet part of the EU.

    And what is all that about positive cultural impact? Do you mean kebab joints? And you have a good time in Turkey? Sounds fascinating, please tell us more about it.

    So you are a Russian campaigning for Turkey’s EU membership, right? Is it something like a Trojan horse stratagem?

    Or perhaps, all those East European countries should leave the EU and so can the West European ones too, so a new EU can rise instead with Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia Herzegovina and Qatar as members pending other Arab League members’ integration.

  269. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I try to explain this to you in a simple way. You are spreading confusion about the Dharma, for your knowledge and level of realization is not high enough for explaining it to people who have no familiarity with the Dharma. In Kalachakra there is not even once said that the mlecchas are muslims or monotheists, and the prophetical part of the Kalachakra is very minor compared to the actual practice that is more centered on balancing of ones energy with the greater cycles of nature and deity Yoga that is the bread and butter of Kalachakra. Actual Buddhist practitioners dont practice idle and speculative chatter with Dharma, especially with random people on internet, right now you are sowing seeds of misconseptions to the mindstreams of people who read your comments. You are making definitive statements about things that you have a very superficial knowledge. This is clearly a sign that you dont have a Buddhist guide nor teacher and you are not part of living tradition that we have, and it is very dangerous path to walk, for as long as our mind is deluded in samsaric existence it is not very trustworthy, it needs a community of monks that trace their lineage to the Buddha Shakyamuni and who follow rules laid by him. You clearly have read small facts there and there from the internet and you have build an erroneous view of Buddhist tradition. Proper Buddhists and Tibetan Buddhists cultivate non-sectarian attitude to Dharma, like there are many different diseases so there are different kinds of medicine, still one should not treat syphilis with insulin, right? Like your statement about Dunhuang, in those times there was no Gelug in Tibet and greatest Gelug masters have always learned from mamy different schools, even Je Tshongkapa himself said that one should learn from all (Buddhist) schools and see unity in all traditions. But for the medicine to work it must be applied in proper way under the guidance of the physician. For different personalities/beings are conditioned by different causes and relations. That is why we have different schools and only great masters can learn from multiple schools and even greater ones can mix the teachings. I have no desire to argue with you, but I am forced by your behaviour. I hope that you develope as a Buddhist, find a proper teacher and stop spreading half misconceptions half truths about the Dharma. There is a spiritual smugness in you, I have never met Russians with it, and I have Russian friends who truly are great Buddhist practitioners, some have even gone on the path of the Buddha himself and have become monks. This smugness is similar to American new age people. It is not grounded on our living tradition.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    I am a lay practitioner and I dont handle even the basics of Dharma yet, in Buddhism we believe in union Boddhicitta and Sunyata, of compassion and wisdom, without one there is no another. How I can truly help people if I dont know the causes of their suffering and means to eliminate it? One can help forever others without any results, and one can build intellectual formulations without any help to oneself or others. For truly to be wise one must know the causes of suffering and the means of eliminating those causes, but that knowledge will never arise without great compassion that drives being to help others at any cost. For truly to be compassionate one needs wisdom to understand ones nature that is dependent on others, but both compassion and wisdom cannot arise alone, they need each other and they rise together. Its still little bit hard for me explain these things in English, but it puzzles me how westerners start right away to study topics that in Buddhist context are reserved for those who have already some kind of state of realization. Or have studied long and hard. Our faith and worldview is not purely intellectual and our emotions and goodwill have a strong power on our perception of reality.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    Perhaps these "Westerners" have in their past lives accrued the merits needed to easily master these topics that you find puzzling?



    How can you ensure the level of realization of someone when you have preconceptions about the differences between the aptitude to spiritual understanding found in peoples of different lands?

    Don't know about the Gelug school, and Tibetan Buddhism in general, but in Ch'an all sentient beings have the same basic nature. This nature is conducive to Enlightenment. Therefore, once sentient beings decide to work towards Liberation, they all shall one day be liberated from the path of sorrow and death. This is as certain as the sun arises in the East and sets down in the West.

    Master Hui-neng said: "People come from north or south, but not their Buddha Nature."

    Master Dogen famously said that even mountains and rivers shall be liberated.

    When your Mind is purified, everything is pure. When your mind is troubled the whole world is full of suffering.

    Your own Mind needs to awaken. Simple enough, no?

    Shakyamuni Buddha himself said:

    "Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."

    People can work towards their spiritual betterment despite being of different ethnic or cultural background. Someone who is ripe to see and understand things will grasp them rapidly, while those who are not ready will certainly struggle, even if they are Buryat or Mongol or Slav or Maori or Zulu.

    Buddha Nature has no nationality, no religious affiliation and no wisdom or stupidity about it. But maybe you do not believe in Buddha Nature?

    Is Shunyata really empty for you?

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  270. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi


    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche,
     
    I actually agree with you. And some Tibetan forms of Buddhism are very fierce. In Tibetan Tantric Buddhism there are many different approaches depending on temperament - some very fierce.

    The idea of the calm Buddhist is as superficial as the typical Western motion of Emptiness as genuine Emptiness.

    While I have at various times been inspired by all forms of Buddhism, I am most influenced by Chan and Dzogchen - to me, the original Buddhist idea of "no desire" logically must ultimately mean let everything be as it is, and don't mess with your mind. Any attempt to change anything - including your mind - is a form of desire. Wanting not to desire is desire. But then, any artificial attempt to kill the urge to change anything is also desire.

    So what are we left with in this absurd double-bind? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which simply means everything you do - or don't do - is a form of desire. Which means don't consciously contrive to do - or not do - anything. Give up. Go with the flow. You can't escape the trap. So be fierce, if you are fierce. Artificial calmness is not necessary.

    What comes with this is an altered perception of the nature of reality. If you can't do or not do anything, then maybe there is no separate you as an agent. The world of entirely separate objects is an illusion. And if everything is related to everything, then everything is ok. Whatever you do is on some level an expression of the underlying perfection.

    I know on some level this can be seen as a repudiation of Buddhism's fundamental principles - especially striving - and Chan and Dzogchen have an ambiguous, quasi-heretical status, but I think it is actually a development of its logic.

    This of course is just my opinion and feel free to disagree. I am of course not a Buddhist, I have only been inspired by Buddhism.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    There is also constructive desire, like wanting to build school or well being of ones parents, Chanda in Buddhist texts. Of course Buddhas have desire to liberate all beings from Samsara. And sometimes there are good kind of delusions and afflictions that create better conditions for individual in future. Shantideva did write about them Bodhisattvacaryavatara. Buddhadharma very easily becomes poison if one tries to learn it alone without guidance, especially with westerners and Jews(Jews are not always in my opinion westerners) for language that it wields differs so strongly from what western psyche is used to. I cannot comment on Dzogchen, too high above my level. Although one of my relatives and one my good monk friend practices it. In this life Foundational vehicle/Shravakayana and Sutrayana are enough for me, and I would be happy if I would develop well grounded understanding of it. Although it would please me if I could one day learn about Buddhist logics, developed by Dignaga.

  271. @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi


    AaronB peaceful Buddhist is just tiring western orientalist cliche,
     
    I actually agree with you. And some Tibetan forms of Buddhism are very fierce. In Tibetan Tantric Buddhism there are many different approaches depending on temperament - some very fierce.

    The idea of the calm Buddhist is as superficial as the typical Western motion of Emptiness as genuine Emptiness.

    While I have at various times been inspired by all forms of Buddhism, I am most influenced by Chan and Dzogchen - to me, the original Buddhist idea of "no desire" logically must ultimately mean let everything be as it is, and don't mess with your mind. Any attempt to change anything - including your mind - is a form of desire. Wanting not to desire is desire. But then, any artificial attempt to kill the urge to change anything is also desire.

    So what are we left with in this absurd double-bind? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which simply means everything you do - or don't do - is a form of desire. Which means don't consciously contrive to do - or not do - anything. Give up. Go with the flow. You can't escape the trap. So be fierce, if you are fierce. Artificial calmness is not necessary.

    What comes with this is an altered perception of the nature of reality. If you can't do or not do anything, then maybe there is no separate you as an agent. The world of entirely separate objects is an illusion. And if everything is related to everything, then everything is ok. Whatever you do is on some level an expression of the underlying perfection.

    I know on some level this can be seen as a repudiation of Buddhism's fundamental principles - especially striving - and Chan and Dzogchen have an ambiguous, quasi-heretical status, but I think it is actually a development of its logic.

    This of course is just my opinion and feel free to disagree. I am of course not a Buddhist, I have only been inspired by Buddhism.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    Chan and Dzogchen have heretical status only among the Theravadas, they are not part of my Gelug school, but many high Gelug lamas practice Dzogchen, even the Dalai Lama. In my limited understanding Madhyamika-Prasangika, Lamrim, Anuttarayoga Tantra is enough for enlightenment, oh its enough for me at least. Really guys we Mahayanists are one big family, except Japanese fakes. I have stayed in Vietnamese and Chinese temples and never heard that any monk says that Tibetan schools are heretic, nor when I have been in big Buddhist lectures or gatherings its quite common that Taiwanese or Vietnamese monks attend on lectures by his holiness. Among Theravada yes there is some fundamentalism and belief of being true or authentic Dhamma among heretics, but rarely there are complications because of it, and some Theravada monks have very open view towards Mahayana. But everything that I write is just anecdotal knowledge, or empirical based on my visits on all major Buddhist holy places in India multiple times(plus Lumbini in Nepal).

  272. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    I am a lay practitioner and I dont handle even the basics of Dharma yet, in Buddhism we believe in union Boddhicitta and Sunyata, of compassion and wisdom, without one there is no another. How I can truly help people if I dont know the causes of their suffering and means to eliminate it? One can help forever others without any results, and one can build intellectual formulations without any help to oneself or others. For truly to be wise one must know the causes of suffering and the means of eliminating those causes, but that knowledge will never arise without great compassion that drives being to help others at any cost. For truly to be compassionate one needs wisdom to understand ones nature that is dependent on others, but both compassion and wisdom cannot arise alone, they need each other and they rise together. Its still little bit hard for me explain these things in English, but it puzzles me how westerners start right away to study topics that in Buddhist context are reserved for those who have already some kind of state of realization. Or have studied long and hard. Our faith and worldview is not purely intellectual and our emotions and goodwill have a strong power on our perception of reality.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Perhaps these “Westerners” have in their past lives accrued the merits needed to easily master these topics that you find puzzling?

    [MORE]

    How can you ensure the level of realization of someone when you have preconceptions about the differences between the aptitude to spiritual understanding found in peoples of different lands?

    Don’t know about the Gelug school, and Tibetan Buddhism in general, but in Ch’an all sentient beings have the same basic nature. This nature is conducive to Enlightenment. Therefore, once sentient beings decide to work towards Liberation, they all shall one day be liberated from the path of sorrow and death. This is as certain as the sun arises in the East and sets down in the West.

    Master Hui-neng said: “People come from north or south, but not their Buddha Nature.”

    Master Dogen famously said that even mountains and rivers shall be liberated.

    When your Mind is purified, everything is pure. When your mind is troubled the whole world is full of suffering.

    Your own Mind needs to awaken. Simple enough, no?

    Shakyamuni Buddha himself said:

    “Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

    People can work towards their spiritual betterment despite being of different ethnic or cultural background. Someone who is ripe to see and understand things will grasp them rapidly, while those who are not ready will certainly struggle, even if they are Buryat or Mongol or Slav or Maori or Zulu.

    Buddha Nature has no nationality, no religious affiliation and no wisdom or stupidity about it. But maybe you do not believe in Buddha Nature?

    Is Shunyata really empty for you?

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Oh if you would have a teacher you would know rhat you are using Kalama sutta in a wrong way and out of the context. Kalamas who are non Buddhist, are asking from Buddha, a criteria of knowing which holy men to trust, but once you have found doctrine and holy men who uphold these criteria, then you should follow loyally that one. Also pratityasamutpada/codependent origination is basic stuff in Chan. All phenomena arise from causes, the causes are taught by the Tathagata. The cessation of causes, as well, is taught by the great Sramana/seer. Therefore there are some complications in transmitting Buddhist terminology to a language that has no history of Buddhism and therefore has arisen from different conditions. Strange probably for you that ancient Indian translators pondered on these problems when transmitting Buddhist teachings to China or Tibet. They needed hundreds of years for proper translations. But after century by century of hard work they achieved high level translations. AND I am not saying that westerner cant understand Dzogchen or Chan, its just that in traditional Buddhism only people who have well grounded basis on Buddhist basics practice these kind of things, and oh there is a Japan, a fake Buddhist country, maybe they all there practice Zen no matter of level if realization
    But ano4 I feel bad after bashing you, especially when I do it anonymously, that is one reason why I dont normally comment on unz.com. For I behave similarly in real life and there is a sense of honesty doing it under your real name, for I despise people who rant on internet but fear to do so in real life.

    So ano4 you claim to be a Buddhist and practitioner of Chan of the Dharmaguptakas, that is praiseworthy ambition, sadly its very hard in Russia, for they have quite many Tibetan Buddhist temples and centers in almost every major city nowadays, and they have even Theravada temples, opened on in St Petersburg not long time ago. You should go and visit some of them, just stay away from "lama" Nydahlas"diamond way buddhist" centres. The Jonang and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism practice very much Chittamatra.

    Replies: @Ano4

  273. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    Perhaps these "Westerners" have in their past lives accrued the merits needed to easily master these topics that you find puzzling?



    How can you ensure the level of realization of someone when you have preconceptions about the differences between the aptitude to spiritual understanding found in peoples of different lands?

    Don't know about the Gelug school, and Tibetan Buddhism in general, but in Ch'an all sentient beings have the same basic nature. This nature is conducive to Enlightenment. Therefore, once sentient beings decide to work towards Liberation, they all shall one day be liberated from the path of sorrow and death. This is as certain as the sun arises in the East and sets down in the West.

    Master Hui-neng said: "People come from north or south, but not their Buddha Nature."

    Master Dogen famously said that even mountains and rivers shall be liberated.

    When your Mind is purified, everything is pure. When your mind is troubled the whole world is full of suffering.

    Your own Mind needs to awaken. Simple enough, no?

    Shakyamuni Buddha himself said:

    "Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."

    People can work towards their spiritual betterment despite being of different ethnic or cultural background. Someone who is ripe to see and understand things will grasp them rapidly, while those who are not ready will certainly struggle, even if they are Buryat or Mongol or Slav or Maori or Zulu.

    Buddha Nature has no nationality, no religious affiliation and no wisdom or stupidity about it. But maybe you do not believe in Buddha Nature?

    Is Shunyata really empty for you?

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Oh if you would have a teacher you would know rhat you are using Kalama sutta in a wrong way and out of the context. Kalamas who are non Buddhist, are asking from Buddha, a criteria of knowing which holy men to trust, but once you have found doctrine and holy men who uphold these criteria, then you should follow loyally that one. Also pratityasamutpada/codependent origination is basic stuff in Chan. All phenomena arise from causes, the causes are taught by the Tathagata. The cessation of causes, as well, is taught by the great Sramana/seer. Therefore there are some complications in transmitting Buddhist terminology to a language that has no history of Buddhism and therefore has arisen from different conditions. Strange probably for you that ancient Indian translators pondered on these problems when transmitting Buddhist teachings to China or Tibet. They needed hundreds of years for proper translations. But after century by century of hard work they achieved high level translations. AND I am not saying that westerner cant understand Dzogchen or Chan, its just that in traditional Buddhism only people who have well grounded basis on Buddhist basics practice these kind of things, and oh there is a Japan, a fake Buddhist country, maybe they all there practice Zen no matter of level if realization
    But ano4 I feel bad after bashing you, especially when I do it anonymously, that is one reason why I dont normally comment on unz.com. For I behave similarly in real life and there is a sense of honesty doing it under your real name, for I despise people who rant on internet but fear to do so in real life.

    So ano4 you claim to be a Buddhist and practitioner of Chan of the Dharmaguptakas, that is praiseworthy ambition, sadly its very hard in Russia, for they have quite many Tibetan Buddhist temples and centers in almost every major city nowadays, and they have even Theravada temples, opened on in St Petersburg not long time ago. You should go and visit some of them, just stay away from “lama” Nydahlas”diamond way buddhist” centres. The Jonang and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism practice very much Chittamatra.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    You did not answer my question about Buddha Dhatu.

    I did not know about how Tibetan Buddhism sees this, so I googled and it looks that my understanding based on Ch'an is quite close to what is taught in the Tibetan traditions.

    https://buddhaweekly.com/buddha-nature-one-important-understandings-mahayana-buddhism-tathagatagarbha-buddha-nature-not-soul/



    I have left Russia many years ago, in 1996 precisely. I have traveled a lot when young, but I am settled in the West nowadays. There are Zen Buddhist centers where I live and I have been attending zazen sessions.

    I don't think I would ever go back to live in Russia full time for family reasons, I am a father of four and my wife is not Russian. Although I still have relatives in Moscow and St Petersburg and our small family appartment in the North Eastern Moscow is still available for me to live in.

    I go to visit relatives every 2 years or so. The change has been tremendous there and I often feel alien and nostalgic about the childhood days.

    No need to feel bad about your posts in our discussion here. I appreciate your honesty and I know that we can feel quite frustrated when we read something that we consider wrong and disagree with.

    Anyway, I would have been happy to discuss it all in real life and you could have probably vented out your frustration with what you see as my lack of proper understanding more effectively face to face.

    If there is a forum where we could continue our discussion without spamming the other good people of UR please provide me with a link.

    I would be glad to keep in touch.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

  274. Wow, so many different schools, levels of enlightenment, Buddhist texts etc;

    I’m not saying that Christianity is devoid of some of these features, but when it all comes down to it, after you melt away the copper and all that is left is the gold, this is what Christianity is really all about:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (King James Bible Version)

    Is there anything within Buddhism that can similarly be pointed to as a verse or utterance for the uninitiated to get some semblance of the whole?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    I am afraid that if I write anything, AltanBakshi will be upset again.

    😄



    Nevertheless for me there is this passage here:


    The Pali Tipitika (Pabhassara Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 1.49-52:

    “Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind.
    “Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind.”

    Basically it means that everyone among us can free his own mind from ignorance and all the negative psychological states. Once there is no more defilements then we are liberated from all suffering.

    Thich Nhat Hanh was very good at explaining this:

    https://youtu.be/C630mrltHOc

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I dont have desire to argue with you Mr Hack, I am happy for you and your Christian faith, but the differences in the basics of Buddhism are smaller among Buddhist schools than they are among Christians. We have four noble truths and four seals of Dharma. Noble truth of suffering. Noble truth of origin of suffering. Noble truth of cessation of suffering. Noble truth of way to ending of suffering, which leads to Nirvana. Suffering is bad translation of Dukkha, that nothing in life truly fulfills and gives everlasting peace or joy, and that all things grow old and die and so on, but there is no better translation in my limited knowledge of English language. And before you say that you wanted an utterance for uninitiated, its quite chauvinistic for you to think that your phrase about God and his son is easily understandable for someone that does not come from Theistic culture, but maybe you dont think so and my conclusion is based on wrong premises.

    Then the four seals, which are defining characteristics of authentic Buddhism

    All composite things are impermanent.
    All contaminated things are of the nature of suffering.
    All phenomena are without inherent existence (another translation: all phenomena are of the nature of emptinesa and selflessness)
    Transcending sorrow is peace/Nirvana.

    But for you this all is probably too emotionally dry. I really dont have desire to argue with you, its better for us to praise each others religion and be happy for each other. It is a sin for a Buddhist to disparage other religions.

    This one is quite simple, but i like it.
    Buddha:
    To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
    I go to the city of Kasi.
    In a world become blind,
    I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AaronB
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure. The Heart Sutra is a very pithy summary of Mahayana doctrine.

    In one line "everything is Empty" (does not have an individual essence separate from everything else. Even Emptiness is Empty - i.e is not "really" empty)

    Functionally, it has a similar psychological effect to Christian salvation - it is another form of salvation.

    Our fear and suffering come from imagining we can be destroyed. That we are seperate things. So we spend our lives defending ourselves. We fight wars, amass fortunes, develop powerful technologies.

    But what if there are no "Beings" - no stable entities. What if there is only a single energy field that takes different forms.

    Death vanishes. Fear vanishes. Seriousness vanishes. One can finally turn to enjoying life, knowing he is Saved - he does not have to spend his life clinging to things, trying to avoid calamity. Everything is OK.

    Christian salvation similarly removes the need to fend off calamity. You are Saved - nothing truly bad can actually happen to you anymore. God - Being itself - has taken you under his wing. You are no longer a tiny individual threatened by destruction.

    That is why Jesus emphasized not living a life of anxious, careworn planning for the future, nor being so concerned with responding to those that attack you - they can't, actually, harm you.

    The joy and liberation of such a life - Buddhist or Christian - is very different than the careworn anxiety and struggle of the average man.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (King James Bible Version)
     
    Pardon my ignorance, but this is the point I cannot get: who he sacrificed his son to? If He is the only God, an almighty God, as Christians believe, he could have sacrificed his son only to himself. What’s more, being almighty, He could have granted humans a chance of redemption without all this song and dance of sacrifice. Makes no sense whichever way you look at it. Any clarification?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mr. Hack, @Ano4, @Ano4, @anonymous coward

  275. @Mr. Hack
    Here's the complete film, I don't understand why those that provided it decided to show it in this strange, "highway configuration" (it's free, so don't complain):

    https://youtu.be/ZiNVerU1hBA

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Lol Mr Hack they upload like that because they don’t want it removed by YouTube “Content ID” algorithm.

    If you want to see online, then here is nice free version:
    http://123putlocker.pro/watch/xqpEoO7v-lost-horizon-1937/mega.html

    But if it is such a re-watchable film then people should pay for a 4K restoration. Future restoration projects of less famous classic films requires for there to be a market of fussy cinephile customers that pay, if such restoration industry will survive and improve in quality of their products, invest in improved technology, training of skilled labour, etc.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry


    But if it is such a re-watchable film then people should pay for a 4K restoration
     
    As I indicated within my comment above, I will be ordering the 4K restoration. Others can watch a good internet version thanks yo you!

    BTW, I finally finished the comparison exercise that you suggested, between Mozart's 24 piano concerto and Beethoven 3. Comment #139 https://www.unz.com/akarlin/rzhev-dementor/

    The exercise was fun. Were you able to watch "Lost Horizon"?...

    Replies: @Dmitry

  276. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Oh if you would have a teacher you would know rhat you are using Kalama sutta in a wrong way and out of the context. Kalamas who are non Buddhist, are asking from Buddha, a criteria of knowing which holy men to trust, but once you have found doctrine and holy men who uphold these criteria, then you should follow loyally that one. Also pratityasamutpada/codependent origination is basic stuff in Chan. All phenomena arise from causes, the causes are taught by the Tathagata. The cessation of causes, as well, is taught by the great Sramana/seer. Therefore there are some complications in transmitting Buddhist terminology to a language that has no history of Buddhism and therefore has arisen from different conditions. Strange probably for you that ancient Indian translators pondered on these problems when transmitting Buddhist teachings to China or Tibet. They needed hundreds of years for proper translations. But after century by century of hard work they achieved high level translations. AND I am not saying that westerner cant understand Dzogchen or Chan, its just that in traditional Buddhism only people who have well grounded basis on Buddhist basics practice these kind of things, and oh there is a Japan, a fake Buddhist country, maybe they all there practice Zen no matter of level if realization
    But ano4 I feel bad after bashing you, especially when I do it anonymously, that is one reason why I dont normally comment on unz.com. For I behave similarly in real life and there is a sense of honesty doing it under your real name, for I despise people who rant on internet but fear to do so in real life.

    So ano4 you claim to be a Buddhist and practitioner of Chan of the Dharmaguptakas, that is praiseworthy ambition, sadly its very hard in Russia, for they have quite many Tibetan Buddhist temples and centers in almost every major city nowadays, and they have even Theravada temples, opened on in St Petersburg not long time ago. You should go and visit some of them, just stay away from "lama" Nydahlas"diamond way buddhist" centres. The Jonang and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism practice very much Chittamatra.

    Replies: @Ano4

    You did not answer my question about Buddha Dhatu.

    I did not know about how Tibetan Buddhism sees this, so I googled and it looks that my understanding based on Ch’an is quite close to what is taught in the Tibetan traditions.

    https://buddhaweekly.com/buddha-nature-one-important-understandings-mahayana-buddhism-tathagatagarbha-buddha-nature-not-soul/

    [MORE]

    I have left Russia many years ago, in 1996 precisely. I have traveled a lot when young, but I am settled in the West nowadays. There are Zen Buddhist centers where I live and I have been attending zazen sessions.

    I don’t think I would ever go back to live in Russia full time for family reasons, I am a father of four and my wife is not Russian. Although I still have relatives in Moscow and St Petersburg and our small family appartment in the North Eastern Moscow is still available for me to live in.

    I go to visit relatives every 2 years or so. The change has been tremendous there and I often feel alien and nostalgic about the childhood days.

    No need to feel bad about your posts in our discussion here. I appreciate your honesty and I know that we can feel quite frustrated when we read something that we consider wrong and disagree with.

    Anyway, I would have been happy to discuss it all in real life and you could have probably vented out your frustration with what you see as my lack of proper understanding more effectively face to face.

    If there is a forum where we could continue our discussion without spamming the other good people of UR please provide me with a link.

    I would be glad to keep in touch.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I hope that you go to a center with proper monks and not these Japanese Roshis or fake monks, okay they call tehmselves priests in English, but are monks in Japanese, Buddhism doesn't even have priests. They and lineages derived from them have resulted so much spiritual confusion, especially in America. Fake and commercialized spirituality, in a spiritually fake and commercialized country, marriage made in heaven! There is no Sangha without monks and there is no Buddhism without Sangha. People who argue otherwise are similar to Christians who speak that there is no heaven and that Christ was just a nice dude. Really ano4 this is fundamental with our religion. Buddha himself spoke about the time when there will be charlatans who mix his Dharma and degenerate it. Beware impostors, Theravada is proper Dharma, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese lineages that have celibate monastics, Tibetan Buddhist major schools, rest is not Dharma.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I dont comment much on internet, I have account with same name on dharmawheel.net the biggest English language Buddhist forum, but its under permament occupation of Globohomo worshipping tree huggers, so to keep my sanity I never visit it anymore.

  277. @Mr. Hack
    Wow, so many different schools, levels of enlightenment, Buddhist texts etc;

    I'm not saying that Christianity is devoid of some of these features, but when it all comes down to it, after you melt away the copper and all that is left is the gold, this is what Christianity is really all about:


    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (King James Bible Version)
     
    Is there anything within Buddhism that can similarly be pointed to as a verse or utterance for the uninitiated to get some semblance of the whole?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi, @AaronB, @AnonFromTN

    I am afraid that if I write anything, AltanBakshi will be upset again.

    😄

    [MORE]

    Nevertheless for me there is this passage here:

    The Pali Tipitika (Pabhassara Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 1.49-52:

    “Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind.
    “Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind.”

    Basically it means that everyone among us can free his own mind from ignorance and all the negative psychological states. Once there is no more defilements then we are liberated from all suffering.

    Thich Nhat Hanh was very good at explaining this:

  278. @AP
    @Ano4


    Colonialism is never fun for the colonized. Wasn’t fun in India, Algeria or Congo, wasn’t fun in Dutch Indonesia, Spanish South America or Portuguese African colonies.
     
    Setting aside the mass death form epidemics (which were not deliberate) the Spanish influence on Latin America was on balance very good, particularly in Mexico and Central America where a religious culture based on genocidal human-sacrifice, that literally worshipped demons, was transformed into a decent and civilized semi-European one with beautiful and sophisticated music and architecture, mass literacy, familiar concepts of human rights, etc. Mexico of 1800, for all of its shortcomings, was far superior for its people than Mexico of 1500.

    Music from 17th century Mexico:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZParkjE-KMw

    100 years before this was composed and played in newly-built beautiful cathedrals, the people were ripping beating hearts out of sacrifical victims on crude pyramids, before alters of demon-gods:

    https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/back.png

    Bolivia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV1GcuiMZH4

    Music from early 18th century Peru:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA


    AK wrote about pre-Spanish Americas:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/skulls-for-the-skull-throne/

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast, Muslim conquerors tended not to elevate, but to destroy or degrade beautiful places and cultures. Islam was the Communism of the first millennium.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @EldnahYm

    Music from early 18th century

    What is special about this music that means it could not be produced in Spain by the same recipe? And from around early 18th century forward?

    Such harmonies you can hear in the composition like “I V I V I V”, are like a stereotype of this epoch in Spain and Italy. You could organize music students to compose this work, using just recipes from 18th century Spain.

    Aside from a few great geniuses, most music of that time was only intended as not especially complicated background music, and the content is according to recipe.

    Similarly rhythm, melodies and arrangement – it is all in Spain at that time. This is late Baroque music from Spain, with no particular feature to the South American region.

    So, in South America they could produce music according to the same methods popular in Europe, but you could do that anywhere, to an extent instruments, musicians and musical formulas of the time could be transported across the oceans. It doesn’t say anything about an original culture that emerges in South America.

    As for pre-Columbian music in South America. I do not know it well. But it would be more interesting to preserve it, as it would likely be different to the European music of this epoch, and therefore offer us something we don’t know from European music.

    South American music we listen to today, emerged later, although it also relies to a significant extent on continuing of influences of the other side of the Atlantic ocean. It is mostly influenced by thing like habanera and also has many influences from rhythms influenced by West African dancers.

    It’s an interesting question to ask when the different kinds of “South American sounds” we listen to have emerged. By the late 19th century, there are already very distinctive “South American sounding” compositions in countries like Brazil and Argentina.

    For example, a lot of popular “bar room” piano music by late 19th century Brazilian composers, already sounds like some distinctive “Brazil”.

  279. @Mr. Hack
    Wow, so many different schools, levels of enlightenment, Buddhist texts etc;

    I'm not saying that Christianity is devoid of some of these features, but when it all comes down to it, after you melt away the copper and all that is left is the gold, this is what Christianity is really all about:


    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (King James Bible Version)
     
    Is there anything within Buddhism that can similarly be pointed to as a verse or utterance for the uninitiated to get some semblance of the whole?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi, @AaronB, @AnonFromTN

    I dont have desire to argue with you Mr Hack, I am happy for you and your Christian faith, but the differences in the basics of Buddhism are smaller among Buddhist schools than they are among Christians. We have four noble truths and four seals of Dharma. Noble truth of suffering. Noble truth of origin of suffering. Noble truth of cessation of suffering. Noble truth of way to ending of suffering, which leads to Nirvana. Suffering is bad translation of Dukkha, that nothing in life truly fulfills and gives everlasting peace or joy, and that all things grow old and die and so on, but there is no better translation in my limited knowledge of English language. And before you say that you wanted an utterance for uninitiated, its quite chauvinistic for you to think that your phrase about God and his son is easily understandable for someone that does not come from Theistic culture, but maybe you dont think so and my conclusion is based on wrong premises.

    Then the four seals, which are defining characteristics of authentic Buddhism

    All composite things are impermanent.
    All contaminated things are of the nature of suffering.
    All phenomena are without inherent existence (another translation: all phenomena are of the nature of emptinesa and selflessness)
    Transcending sorrow is peace/Nirvana.

    But for you this all is probably too emotionally dry. I really dont have desire to argue with you, its better for us to praise each others religion and be happy for each other. It is a sin for a Buddhist to disparage other religions.

    This one is quite simple, but i like it.
    Buddha:
    To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
    I go to the city of Kasi.
    In a world become blind,
    I beat the drum of the Deathless.’

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
    I go to the city of Kasi.
    In a world become blind,
    I beat the drum of the Deathless
     
    .

    I like this one very much!
  280. @Mr. Hack
    Wow, so many different schools, levels of enlightenment, Buddhist texts etc;

    I'm not saying that Christianity is devoid of some of these features, but when it all comes down to it, after you melt away the copper and all that is left is the gold, this is what Christianity is really all about:


    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (King James Bible Version)
     
    Is there anything within Buddhism that can similarly be pointed to as a verse or utterance for the uninitiated to get some semblance of the whole?

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi, @AaronB, @AnonFromTN

    Sure. The Heart Sutra is a very pithy summary of Mahayana doctrine.

    In one line “everything is Empty” (does not have an individual essence separate from everything else. Even Emptiness is Empty – i.e is not “really” empty)

    Functionally, it has a similar psychological effect to Christian salvation – it is another form of salvation.

    Our fear and suffering come from imagining we can be destroyed. That we are seperate things. So we spend our lives defending ourselves. We fight wars, amass fortunes, develop powerful technologies.

    But what if there are no “Beings” – no stable entities. What if there is only a single energy field that takes different forms.

    Death vanishes. Fear vanishes. Seriousness vanishes. One can finally turn to enjoying life, knowing he is Saved – he does not have to spend his life clinging to things, trying to avoid calamity. Everything is OK.

    Christian salvation similarly removes the need to fend off calamity. You are Saved – nothing truly bad can actually happen to you anymore. God – Being itself – has taken you under his wing. You are no longer a tiny individual threatened by destruction.

    That is why Jesus emphasized not living a life of anxious, careworn planning for the future, nor being so concerned with responding to those that attack you – they can’t, actually, harm you.

    The joy and liberation of such a life – Buddhist or Christian – is very different than the careworn anxiety and struggle of the average man.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AaronB

    All schools of Buddhism deny monism. If all is one, then why we are not all one? Monistic view of reality is regarded as clinging and dualistic in Buddhism, after all concept of one depends on external factors or relations. Our view is the middle way.

    Arya Nagarjuna:

    In dependent origination,
    There is no ceasing, no arising,
    No annihilation, no permanence,
    No coming, no going,
    No separateness, no sameness,
    I prostrate to the consummate Buddha,
    The supreme among all teachers,
    The one who taught (this) peace,
    Which is freed of elaborations.

    In Chinese translation there is a verse that says :"not one, not many."

    Replies: @AaronB

  281. Unfortunately, our dialogue here is turning into a mud-bath of claim and counterclaim of who possesses more knowledge of the “truth”. Instead, may I humbly suggest that we pause for a moment and give heed to the words of Patriarch Bartholomew, who being a very erudite man, has acquired quite a knowledge of Eastern thought and has suggested:

    We Christians have a great deal to do to prepare for this encounter. And it is far more interesting than arguing among ourselves.

    This article digests some of the more salient ideas presented within Buddhism (and touches on Hinduism too) in Patriarch Bartholomew’s view. Every sentence can give one a reason to pause and reflect. As I understand his position, one important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is the both faiths look upon man’s status within the universe:

    Everything, the patriarch adds, centers on the concept of the “person.” According to Buddhism, the person does not exist. The Christian, however, affirms the existence of the person. But Orthodoxy does not identify the person with the individual, with the “individual substance of a rational nature,” as Boethius awkwardly stated in the Latin world. This would mean that the person is nothing more than a mask, which is indeed the original meaning of the Latin word persona, or the Greek prosopon. The person is revealed only at the conclusion of a negative anthropology, and the efforts of Hinduism and Buddhism can be helpful for us. The absolute is not beyond the person (for then, in effect, there would be no one!). Rather, the absolute is the very depth, the “bottomless depth,” of the person, or rather, of communion. And if the person, and therefore the possibility of encounter, do exist, then history exists. Yet neither Hinduism nor Buddhism is interested in history, because for them time, with its endless cycles, consists of nothing but terror. If the person, and therefore communion, exists, then man’s attraction toward God transfigures desire: eros is transformed into agape. It is particularly the miracle of grace and forgiveness that destroys the fatality of karma–-that automatic link between the act and its consequences––and the fear “that we will need to repay everything,” as say some Christians who fail to comprehend the infinite grace of the cross and the resurrection.

    Really enlightening, respectful and worth reading.

    http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-india-and-buddhism-ecumenical.html

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks.

    Orthodoxy is really the closest to the Eastern faiths the West has.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I am not claiming that I possess the truth, the Big Truth, also I did not felt so from ano4 or AaronB. There were couple comments about Buddhism that were not Buddhist in my opinion so I tried fix the situation.

    By the way Buddha taught that making of schism is one of the gravest sins, equal to killing of holy men. I hope that your Bart hasnt done things like that. And before you bark about disparaging others religion, I must say that I have utmost respect for Christ and I truly believe that Orthodox church is his true church. By stating this I have not attacked in any way the good religion of Christianity. That has done immensely in alleviating suffering of countless people, and has unparalleled achievements in that regard. But you probably are smart enough to not equal Bart with Christianity.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  282. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I dont have desire to argue with you Mr Hack, I am happy for you and your Christian faith, but the differences in the basics of Buddhism are smaller among Buddhist schools than they are among Christians. We have four noble truths and four seals of Dharma. Noble truth of suffering. Noble truth of origin of suffering. Noble truth of cessation of suffering. Noble truth of way to ending of suffering, which leads to Nirvana. Suffering is bad translation of Dukkha, that nothing in life truly fulfills and gives everlasting peace or joy, and that all things grow old and die and so on, but there is no better translation in my limited knowledge of English language. And before you say that you wanted an utterance for uninitiated, its quite chauvinistic for you to think that your phrase about God and his son is easily understandable for someone that does not come from Theistic culture, but maybe you dont think so and my conclusion is based on wrong premises.

    Then the four seals, which are defining characteristics of authentic Buddhism

    All composite things are impermanent.
    All contaminated things are of the nature of suffering.
    All phenomena are without inherent existence (another translation: all phenomena are of the nature of emptinesa and selflessness)
    Transcending sorrow is peace/Nirvana.

    But for you this all is probably too emotionally dry. I really dont have desire to argue with you, its better for us to praise each others religion and be happy for each other. It is a sin for a Buddhist to disparage other religions.

    This one is quite simple, but i like it.
    Buddha:
    To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
    I go to the city of Kasi.
    In a world become blind,
    I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

    Replies: @Ano4

    To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
    I go to the city of Kasi.
    In a world become blind,
    I beat the drum of the Deathless

    .

    I like this one very much!

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  283. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    You did not answer my question about Buddha Dhatu.

    I did not know about how Tibetan Buddhism sees this, so I googled and it looks that my understanding based on Ch'an is quite close to what is taught in the Tibetan traditions.

    https://buddhaweekly.com/buddha-nature-one-important-understandings-mahayana-buddhism-tathagatagarbha-buddha-nature-not-soul/



    I have left Russia many years ago, in 1996 precisely. I have traveled a lot when young, but I am settled in the West nowadays. There are Zen Buddhist centers where I live and I have been attending zazen sessions.

    I don't think I would ever go back to live in Russia full time for family reasons, I am a father of four and my wife is not Russian. Although I still have relatives in Moscow and St Petersburg and our small family appartment in the North Eastern Moscow is still available for me to live in.

    I go to visit relatives every 2 years or so. The change has been tremendous there and I often feel alien and nostalgic about the childhood days.

    No need to feel bad about your posts in our discussion here. I appreciate your honesty and I know that we can feel quite frustrated when we read something that we consider wrong and disagree with.

    Anyway, I would have been happy to discuss it all in real life and you could have probably vented out your frustration with what you see as my lack of proper understanding more effectively face to face.

    If there is a forum where we could continue our discussion without spamming the other good people of UR please provide me with a link.

    I would be glad to keep in touch.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    I hope that you go to a center with proper monks and not these Japanese Roshis or fake monks, okay they call tehmselves priests in English, but are monks in Japanese, Buddhism doesn’t even have priests. They and lineages derived from them have resulted so much spiritual confusion, especially in America. Fake and commercialized spirituality, in a spiritually fake and commercialized country, marriage made in heaven! There is no Sangha without monks and there is no Buddhism without Sangha. People who argue otherwise are similar to Christians who speak that there is no heaven and that Christ was just a nice dude. Really ano4 this is fundamental with our religion. Buddha himself spoke about the time when there will be charlatans who mix his Dharma and degenerate it. Beware impostors, Theravada is proper Dharma, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese lineages that have celibate monastics, Tibetan Buddhist major schools, rest is not Dharma.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    If my karmic seeds are conducive to meet a proper Master, then I certainly will. If not, then I will continue alone as written in the Rhinoceros Sutra.

    Not so long ago I have discovered with amazement that I am no longer afraid of dying, maybe I will meet a proper instructor in my future life.

    Anyway thanks again for your comments.

    You've put a lot of time into them and I feel grateful for your efforts.

    Sorry again to have upset you with my take on the Kalachakra Tantra.

  284. @Dmitry
    @Mr. Hack

    Lol Mr Hack they upload like that because they don't want it removed by YouTube "Content ID" algorithm.

    If you want to see online, then here is nice free version:
    http://123putlocker.pro/watch/xqpEoO7v-lost-horizon-1937/mega.html

    But if it is such a re-watchable film then people should pay for a 4K restoration. Future restoration projects of less famous classic films requires for there to be a market of fussy cinephile customers that pay, if such restoration industry will survive and improve in quality of their products, invest in improved technology, training of skilled labour, etc.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    But if it is such a re-watchable film then people should pay for a 4K restoration

    As I indicated within my comment above, I will be ordering the 4K restoration. Others can watch a good internet version thanks yo you!

    BTW, I finally finished the comparison exercise that you suggested, between Mozart’s 24 piano concerto and Beethoven 3. Comment #139 https://www.unz.com/akarlin/rzhev-dementor/

    The exercise was fun. Were you able to watch “Lost Horizon”?…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mr. Hack

    Oh thanks for the reply - sorry I didn't see your message. We need to move to the new open thread I guess, as the old threads are always dropped to the bottom of the page - and it's slow to scroll to them on my phone.


    The exercise was fun. Were you able to watch “Lost Horizon”?…

     

    No I'm a bit busy to watch films this week.

    Well, I have endless hours this week to procrastinate with things which I can do at the same time as sitting before the computer screen. But with films, I like to watch on an large television, or cinema, and with undistracted attention.
  285. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    You did not answer my question about Buddha Dhatu.

    I did not know about how Tibetan Buddhism sees this, so I googled and it looks that my understanding based on Ch'an is quite close to what is taught in the Tibetan traditions.

    https://buddhaweekly.com/buddha-nature-one-important-understandings-mahayana-buddhism-tathagatagarbha-buddha-nature-not-soul/



    I have left Russia many years ago, in 1996 precisely. I have traveled a lot when young, but I am settled in the West nowadays. There are Zen Buddhist centers where I live and I have been attending zazen sessions.

    I don't think I would ever go back to live in Russia full time for family reasons, I am a father of four and my wife is not Russian. Although I still have relatives in Moscow and St Petersburg and our small family appartment in the North Eastern Moscow is still available for me to live in.

    I go to visit relatives every 2 years or so. The change has been tremendous there and I often feel alien and nostalgic about the childhood days.

    No need to feel bad about your posts in our discussion here. I appreciate your honesty and I know that we can feel quite frustrated when we read something that we consider wrong and disagree with.

    Anyway, I would have been happy to discuss it all in real life and you could have probably vented out your frustration with what you see as my lack of proper understanding more effectively face to face.

    If there is a forum where we could continue our discussion without spamming the other good people of UR please provide me with a link.

    I would be glad to keep in touch.

    Be well good friend!

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

    I dont comment much on internet, I have account with same name on dharmawheel.net the biggest English language Buddhist forum, but its under permament occupation of Globohomo worshipping tree huggers, so to keep my sanity I never visit it anymore.

  286. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    I hope that you go to a center with proper monks and not these Japanese Roshis or fake monks, okay they call tehmselves priests in English, but are monks in Japanese, Buddhism doesn't even have priests. They and lineages derived from them have resulted so much spiritual confusion, especially in America. Fake and commercialized spirituality, in a spiritually fake and commercialized country, marriage made in heaven! There is no Sangha without monks and there is no Buddhism without Sangha. People who argue otherwise are similar to Christians who speak that there is no heaven and that Christ was just a nice dude. Really ano4 this is fundamental with our religion. Buddha himself spoke about the time when there will be charlatans who mix his Dharma and degenerate it. Beware impostors, Theravada is proper Dharma, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese lineages that have celibate monastics, Tibetan Buddhist major schools, rest is not Dharma.

    Replies: @Ano4

    If my karmic seeds are conducive to meet a proper Master, then I certainly will. If not, then I will continue alone as written in the Rhinoceros Sutra.

    Not so long ago I have discovered with amazement that I am no longer afraid of dying, maybe I will meet a proper instructor in my future life.

    Anyway thanks again for your comments.

    You’ve put a lot of time into them and I feel grateful for your efforts.

    Sorry again to have upset you with my take on the Kalachakra Tantra.

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  287. @Mr. Hack
    Unfortunately, our dialogue here is turning into a mud-bath of claim and counterclaim of who possesses more knowledge of the "truth". Instead, may I humbly suggest that we pause for a moment and give heed to the words of Patriarch Bartholomew, who being a very erudite man, has acquired quite a knowledge of Eastern thought and has suggested:

    We Christians have a great deal to do to prepare for this encounter. And it is far more interesting than arguing among ourselves.
     
    This article digests some of the more salient ideas presented within Buddhism (and touches on Hinduism too) in Patriarch Bartholomew's view. Every sentence can give one a reason to pause and reflect. As I understand his position, one important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is the both faiths look upon man's status within the universe:

    Everything, the patriarch adds, centers on the concept of the “person." According to Buddhism, the person does not exist. The Christian, however, affirms the existence of the person. But Orthodoxy does not identify the person with the individual, with the "individual substance of a rational nature,” as Boethius awkwardly stated in the Latin world. This would mean that the person is nothing more than a mask, which is indeed the original meaning of the Latin word persona, or the Greek prosopon. The person is revealed only at the conclusion of a negative anthropology, and the efforts of Hinduism and Buddhism can be helpful for us. The absolute is not beyond the person (for then, in effect, there would be no one!). Rather, the absolute is the very depth, the "bottomless depth," of the person, or rather, of communion. And if the person, and therefore the possibility of encounter, do exist, then history exists. Yet neither Hinduism nor Buddhism is interested in history, because for them time, with its endless cycles, consists of nothing but terror. If the person, and therefore communion, exists, then man's attraction toward God transfigures desire: eros is transformed into agape. It is particularly the miracle of grace and forgiveness that destroys the fatality of karma–-that automatic link between the act and its consequences––and the fear "that we will need to repay everything," as say some Christians who fail to comprehend the infinite grace of the cross and the resurrection.
     
    Really enlightening, respectful and worth reading.

    http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-india-and-buddhism-ecumenical.html

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    Thanks.

    Orthodoxy is really the closest to the Eastern faiths the West has.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, Mr. Hack
    • LOL: anonymous coward
  288. @AaronB
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure. The Heart Sutra is a very pithy summary of Mahayana doctrine.

    In one line "everything is Empty" (does not have an individual essence separate from everything else. Even Emptiness is Empty - i.e is not "really" empty)

    Functionally, it has a similar psychological effect to Christian salvation - it is another form of salvation.

    Our fear and suffering come from imagining we can be destroyed. That we are seperate things. So we spend our lives defending ourselves. We fight wars, amass fortunes, develop powerful technologies.

    But what if there are no "Beings" - no stable entities. What if there is only a single energy field that takes different forms.

    Death vanishes. Fear vanishes. Seriousness vanishes. One can finally turn to enjoying life, knowing he is Saved - he does not have to spend his life clinging to things, trying to avoid calamity. Everything is OK.

    Christian salvation similarly removes the need to fend off calamity. You are Saved - nothing truly bad can actually happen to you anymore. God - Being itself - has taken you under his wing. You are no longer a tiny individual threatened by destruction.

    That is why Jesus emphasized not living a life of anxious, careworn planning for the future, nor being so concerned with responding to those that attack you - they can't, actually, harm you.

    The joy and liberation of such a life - Buddhist or Christian - is very different than the careworn anxiety and struggle of the average man.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    All schools of Buddhism deny monism. If all is one, then why we are not all one? Monistic view of reality is regarded as clinging and dualistic in Buddhism, after all concept of one depends on external factors or relations. Our view is the middle way.

    Arya Nagarjuna:

    In dependent origination,
    There is no ceasing, no arising,
    No annihilation, no permanence,
    No coming, no going,
    No separateness, no sameness,
    I prostrate to the consummate Buddha,
    The supreme among all teachers,
    The one who taught (this) peace,
    Which is freed of elaborations.

    In Chinese translation there is a verse that says :”not one, not many.”

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @AltanBakshi

    Monism sets up a distinction with plurality, so it would be a dualism.

    It is not the obliteration of distinctions - it is the dependence of distinctions on each other.

    For instance, how do I perceive white? By distinguishing it from black. So the two go together. You can't have one without the other. So they are not opposites - they depend on each other.

    So if I want a world of white, I must want a world of black also.

    And so too for good and evil, etc.

    So it is not "one thing" - monism - but "not-two" (things which appear opposed in fact cannot exist without each other).

    In fact, the whole colorful world of distinctions can only exist in non-duality.

    But once you see this, you see there is no real fight going on in the world. The Chinese yin-yang symbol symbolizes the same truth.

    For instance - Jews and anti-Semites fight. But really, you can't have Jews without people who hate jews. So is it really a fight?

    I used to try to be a very moral person - as opposed to a spontaneous person - and I found that there people who hated me for my morality! Moral people cannot exist without immoral people.

    This too is the message of the Tao The Ching.

    And being moral is karmic action - it attaches you and binds to Samsara, just with golden chains. Buddhism is beyond good and evil.

    Of course, this does not mean I don't fight anti-Semites - I feel like doing so, so why not? But I do it with a bit of a wink 😉

    Because fundamentally, there is nothing to fear, and nothing bad can happen in life. Evil cannot win out over good - because the two are locked in an embrace. Can we have only the "up" of a mountain without the "down"? The two imply each other. So what is there to fear?

    Nor is there any need to "convert" the world to this philosophy - because why?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AaronB

  289. @Mr. Hack
    Unfortunately, our dialogue here is turning into a mud-bath of claim and counterclaim of who possesses more knowledge of the "truth". Instead, may I humbly suggest that we pause for a moment and give heed to the words of Patriarch Bartholomew, who being a very erudite man, has acquired quite a knowledge of Eastern thought and has suggested:

    We Christians have a great deal to do to prepare for this encounter. And it is far more interesting than arguing among ourselves.
     
    This article digests some of the more salient ideas presented within Buddhism (and touches on Hinduism too) in Patriarch Bartholomew's view. Every sentence can give one a reason to pause and reflect. As I understand his position, one important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is the both faiths look upon man's status within the universe:

    Everything, the patriarch adds, centers on the concept of the “person." According to Buddhism, the person does not exist. The Christian, however, affirms the existence of the person. But Orthodoxy does not identify the person with the individual, with the "individual substance of a rational nature,” as Boethius awkwardly stated in the Latin world. This would mean that the person is nothing more than a mask, which is indeed the original meaning of the Latin word persona, or the Greek prosopon. The person is revealed only at the conclusion of a negative anthropology, and the efforts of Hinduism and Buddhism can be helpful for us. The absolute is not beyond the person (for then, in effect, there would be no one!). Rather, the absolute is the very depth, the "bottomless depth," of the person, or rather, of communion. And if the person, and therefore the possibility of encounter, do exist, then history exists. Yet neither Hinduism nor Buddhism is interested in history, because for them time, with its endless cycles, consists of nothing but terror. If the person, and therefore communion, exists, then man's attraction toward God transfigures desire: eros is transformed into agape. It is particularly the miracle of grace and forgiveness that destroys the fatality of karma–-that automatic link between the act and its consequences––and the fear "that we will need to repay everything," as say some Christians who fail to comprehend the infinite grace of the cross and the resurrection.
     
    Really enlightening, respectful and worth reading.

    http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-india-and-buddhism-ecumenical.html

    Replies: @AaronB, @AltanBakshi

    I am not claiming that I possess the truth, the Big Truth, also I did not felt so from ano4 or AaronB. There were couple comments about Buddhism that were not Buddhist in my opinion so I tried fix the situation.

    By the way Buddha taught that making of schism is one of the gravest sins, equal to killing of holy men. I hope that your Bart hasnt done things like that. And before you bark about disparaging others religion, I must say that I have utmost respect for Christ and I truly believe that Orthodox church is his true church. By stating this I have not attacked in any way the good religion of Christianity. That has done immensely in alleviating suffering of countless people, and has unparalleled achievements in that regard. But you probably are smart enough to not equal Bart with Christianity.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Also karma is not fatalistic, we have a power to change and we believe in conventional self, but not that we have somekind of essence or identity that never changes, so we do not believe in soul, but we believe in self that changes constantly under the flux of internal and external factors. For Bart there probably is nothing more inspiring than history, I can wonder what kind of Byzantine daydreams he has sometimes, but bah history is not terrible for us Hindus nor Buddhists, anymore than it was to the Pagan Greeks.

  290. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I am not claiming that I possess the truth, the Big Truth, also I did not felt so from ano4 or AaronB. There were couple comments about Buddhism that were not Buddhist in my opinion so I tried fix the situation.

    By the way Buddha taught that making of schism is one of the gravest sins, equal to killing of holy men. I hope that your Bart hasnt done things like that. And before you bark about disparaging others religion, I must say that I have utmost respect for Christ and I truly believe that Orthodox church is his true church. By stating this I have not attacked in any way the good religion of Christianity. That has done immensely in alleviating suffering of countless people, and has unparalleled achievements in that regard. But you probably are smart enough to not equal Bart with Christianity.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Also karma is not fatalistic, we have a power to change and we believe in conventional self, but not that we have somekind of essence or identity that never changes, so we do not believe in soul, but we