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HABBENING: Armenia & Azerbaijan Close to War
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2020 keeps getting more powerful as the clashes in July have suddenly crescendoed with reports of large-scale Azeri attacks on the Artsakh frontlines and Azeri shelling of the Armenian enclave’s capital of Stepanakert.

This now seems to be a bigger thing than your typical serious border scuffle, which happens once every few years and kills a dozen to a few dozen soldiers (as in 2016) on each side.

The past few days have been accompanied by feverish war propaganda in Azerbaijan and Turkey, with allegations that the PKK is sheltering in Armenia and training their troops (LOL). Turkey was also reported to have transferred over some FSA mercs to Azerbaijan a few days ago. One video floating around on Telegram claims to now show them in Azerbaijan. I am not a region expert, nor do I know Arabic, so I can’t vouch for any of this.

In more verifiable news, a general mobilization has been declared not just in Artsakh, but in Armenia too. Turkey has expressed its open support for Azerbaijan.

Information is coming in fleetingly, but casualties easily number in the dozens, with at least 19 killed Armenian conscripts. The Armenians say they destroyed 20 UAVs, 3 helicopters, and 30 tanks and IFVs. There are already videos of seemingly incompetently utilized Azeri tanks getting blown up.

In terms of the military balance, I don’t think that much has drastically changed since 2016, when I wrote a large post in the wake of a previous set of clashes. The Azeris did very badly during the war with Armenia immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, incurring a loss ratio as high as 1:5. However, since then, oil wealth has enabled Azerbaijan to get a great many more shiny toys – for a long time, its military budget was larger than Armenia’s entire state budget. It has also increased its demographic advantage over Armenia. Whether that can make up for higher Armenian military competence and 25 years worth of reinforcing their positions remains to be seen.

This is assuming this clash doesn’t end in a whimper like the previous one, which also remains a possibility, even if the level of escalation is beyond what happened in 2016. However, IF there is a big Armenia vs. Azerbaijan war, and if Azerbaijan loses again, then I expect the clock will begin ticking on Aliyev’s hold on power. The Azeris might be ultra-nationalists who want and demand war (“End the quarantine, start the war!” was an actual slogan during their anti-Armenian protests this July, which at least had the dubious honor of being far more based than the Belorussian ones) but presumably they want to win it, not lose it ignominiously.

At this stage, fevered talk of a clash between NATO and Russia/CSTO are remote scaremongering. Russia has no obligations to defend Artsakh, those obligations only kick in if Azerbaijan (or Turkey) invade Armenia proper. And obviously NATO has no obligations to Turkey in a war of its own choosing.

I don’t really see any point in making further predictions or conclusions while so many things remain shrouded by the fog of war so for now I’ll just open it up to general discussion.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  2. Looks like the Azeris haven’t learned much in the past few years (or decade).

  3. Apparently Azerbaijan officially declared war:

    Anyone got similar news from more credible sources to corroborate this information?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  4. • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  5. @Swarthy Greek

    Interesting.

    However, “state of war” is actually distinct from “declaration of war [against Polity X]”.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  6. @Anatoly Karlin

    I think they can still afford these losses for the moment.

  7. @Anatoly Karlin

    No, according to the tweet (of questionable reliability) it’s not just a generic state of war (like “state of emergency”), rather it’s a state of war with Armenia. Which is how Hungary declared war on the USSR in 1941. (The prime minister just told the lower house of the National Assembly that “a state of war has started between Hungary and the USSR.” The National Assembly just accepted the declaration without a vote, which was strictly speaking unconstitutional.)

    Edit: it seems it’s just a mistranslation of “martial llaw.”
    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/azerbaijan-declares-state-of-war-in-some-cities-regions/1987528

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  8. The Turks are supporting Azerbaijan firmly, at least in words.

    https://en.trend.az/world/turkey/3306013.html

  9. I will pray for an Armenian victory

    • Agree: Not Raul, 22pp22
  10. @Anatoly Karlin

    This kind of declaration is nothing but bravado, typical of lower class Turcoïd mongrels. The Aliyev gang is soon running out of oil money so Azeris will be be back in no time to their prototypical starving untermensch state.

    • Replies: @Druid
  11. Max Payne says:

    Please god, don’t tease me again. Don’t I deserve this?

  12. So far it appears that the Azeris are using armour to push through Armenian defences but are taking heavy losses doing so. Possibly, with their large store of armoured vehicles and backing from Turkey (there has been credible footage of Turkey’s redeployed Syrian jihadists being utilised by Azerbaijan), this tactic could be worth the losses if they can break through and ascend the first mountain range.

    My money is still on the Armenians, but with the backing of Turkey things could get interesting.

  13. @reiner Tor

    Well this doesn’t surprise me much. An actual declaration of war wouldn’t have been in the interest of Azerbaijan since Armenia could have asked for russian help due to being a CSTO member. I’m really interested into seeing how far Turkey is willing and capable of escalating against Armenia. On the one hand Erdogan is desperate for a foreign policy victory but on the other his economy is in complete free-fall and a defeat would permanently doom his political career.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  14. Mitleser says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    Hasn’t he already achieved such a victory in Libya?

    • Agree: Not Raul
  15. Svevlad says:

    Both useless “countryoids”. I hope the Azeris do something real dumb so Russia gets a reason to restore them back to their proper masters.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  16. In Armenia’s favor is the fact that Muslims have never won a modern mechanized war(i.e. Afghan jihad against USSR and skirmishes like Turkish occupation of Cyprus doesn’t count) post WW 2 against a non Muslim country.

    I hope Armenia wins again against the Azeris.

    Russia actually has some very good weapons ideally suited for asymmetric warfare .Verba MANPADS,Kornet ATGM etc.That plus small quantities of things like Iskander tactical ballistic missiles and game changing EW weapons should help the Armenians.

  17. The Armenian guys who were KIA were almost all younger then 25, there seems to have been a lot of people volunteering to fight too
    Proper patriotism still present in Armenia it seems

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  18. @Korenchkin

    Weren’t those killed mostly conscripts?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  19. Obligatory link to liveuamap for those with an autistic interest in military conflict.

    https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/

    • Replies: @Beckow
  20. @reiner Tor

    Perhaps, but the volunteers tidbit is still very interesting

    Thousands of volunteers across Armenia are visiting recruitment centers and expressing a desire to join the armed forces. “While highly appreciating the readiness of our compatriots, the Armenian Defense Ministry declares that there is no need for volunteers at the moment,” said Vahram Poghosyan, spokesman of the president.

    https://massispost.com/2020/09/armenia-and-artsakh-declare-martial-law-and-general-mobalization/

  21. @Kent Nationalist

    I will support anyone who fights the T*rks to be honest.

    [MORE]

    On a side note, seeing as London is now a place where the ethnic groups of the world confront eachother over their foreign turf wars, I am looking forwards towards a fight between Armenians and Azeris.

  22. Beckow says:
    @AltSerrice

    Erdogan was itching to attack someone and was blocked by Russia in Syria and by EU in Greece, a few remote goat-infested hills was all that was available. But Azeris could break out of Naxichevan. Or Armenians could attempt to take it.

    There are a lot of people with Armenian background (often partial) among the global elites so I don’t see Azeris in Yerevan any time soon. And there is no point for Armenians in taking more territory. As before, this will end with a stalemate.

    If corona can’t even keep people from starting pointless wars, what is it good for?

    • Replies: @vot tak
  23. Kim Kardashian: Call upon Baku to cease all offensive uses of force, cut off all US military aid to Azerbaijan being used against Armenians & warn Turkey to stop sending arms & fighters to Baku

    I hope this will have a large geopolitical effect. Would fit perfectly with this clown world.

    Azerbaijan uses F-16 planes and Turkish Bayraktar drones – Head of Nagorny Karabakh authorities

    It is not only Azerbaijan is fighting with us, Turkey is also fighting with us. Modern Turkish weapons are being used – drones and airplanes – Head of the Nagorny Karabakh authorities

    I wonder if these will get confirmed. It truly has some… interesting potential, since Russia is treaty bound to help Armenia against Turkish aggression, but then Turkey is a NATO member…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @joniel
  24. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    “It is not only Azerbaijan is fighting with us, Turkey is also fighting with us. Modern Turkish weapons are being used – drones and airplanes – Head of the Nagorny Karabakh authorities”

    I wonder if these will get confirmed. It truly has some… interesting potential, since Russia is treaty bound to help Armenia against Turkish aggression, but then Turkey is a NATO member…

    ..And so many were worried that Ukraine would result in World War III.

    When I visited Baku a couple of years ago I was amused to find that literally 1/4 of their local English-language newspaper was devoted to nothing but bad things about Armenia (some crimes in Yerevan, various corruption stories, etc.)

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  25. Dmitry says:
    @Svevlad

    From Russian government self-interest, the best situation would be that both sides can return to cold war between Armenia and Azerbaijan, which has been favourable for Russian power projection in the area in the last couple decades.

    The military threat from Azerbaijan (and more indirectly, Turkey), is one of the main whips which means that Armenia can never leave Russian patronage. (If there was a similar third country threatening Georgia, as Azerbaijan threatens Armenia, then Georgia would never have fallen into conflict with Russia).

    In parallel, the military threat from Armenia, is preventing Azerbaijan from leaving relations with Russia (although Azerbaijan is tempted always to a more diversified external policy), and this conflict with Armenia is what is sponsoring their purchases of Russian military equipment. Azerbaijan has a lot of oil money that it redirects into the Russian military exports.

    Return to “status quo” of cold war between Armenia an Azerbaijan, is the desirable situation (from a perspective of strictly Russia’s selfinterest).

    From Armenia’s perspective, this is surely a very unpleasant timing of conflict, as there might be a beginning of a second wave of the coronavirus epidemic in the country, which would require a lockdown.

    I doubt that military mobilization is useful for anti-epidemic measures. Probably Azerbaijan is partly motivated by this consideration that Armenia will be wanting not to militarily mobilize too much, under threat of a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic.

  26. iffen says:

    It is my understanding that this is all fake news, and it is proven by the fact that no one has explained how the U. S. is at fault, even though we have some of the world’s finest “blame America first” cadres right here.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  27. @AP

    The Azeri officer who murdered his Armenian counterpart during a NATO training seminar (in gruesome fashion, too) became a national hero in Azerbaijan and was officially feted upon his return.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramil_Safarov

    It’s amusing how what is probably the world’s most areligious Muslim country maxes out on the ultranationalism axis instead.

    • Thanks: AP
  28. Armenian soft power on display

    • Replies: @another anon
  29. SIMP simp says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Probably those are azeri forces (desert camo) making their way through the wreckage of a destroyed armenian column (green camo). There are also plenty of videos of azeris bombing armenian air defence installations and weapons depots while their ground forces are pushing in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    I root for the armenians but things look bad for them. Turkish threats could tie down support from Armenia proper, leaving the local forces in Nagorno-Karabakh to face the bulk of azeri forces.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  30. @iffen

    Some indirect blame (quite limited, if any) might fall on the Americans, but I’m not aware of such. This is one of the conflicts which would happen even if America didn’t exist, and probably wouldn’t be any better.

    • Replies: @iffen
  31. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Yes, the worldwide Armenian fascist conspiracy have all things covered.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
  32. @Anatoly Karlin

    Letting Safarov out was one of the most shameful and amoral things Orbán ever did. It’s just bad.

  33. @reiner Tor

    I regret that I hadn’t killed any Armenian before this. The army sent me to this training and here I learnt that two Armenians were taking the same course with us. I must say that hatred against Armenians grew inside me. In the beginning we were greeting each other, or rather they said “hi” to me but I didn’t respond. The reason why I committed the murder was that they passed by and smiled in our face. At that moment I decided to kill them, i.e. to saw their heads off…

    I have been a soldier for 14 years now, but I cannot give an answer whether I would kill if I were a civil person. I haven’t thought on the question whether I would kill Armenians if I were civil [sic]. My job is to kill all, because until they live we will suffer.
    ..

    If not here and now, then I would do the same thing any other time and in any other place. If there were more Armenians here I would like to kill all of them. It is a pity this was the first occasion and I hadn’t managed to get better prepared for this action… My calling is to kill all the Armenians.

    Although the Hungarian government stated that it had received assurances from the Azerbaijan government that the remainder of the sentence would be enforced, President Ilham Aliyev issued a pardon immediately upon Safarov’s arrival in Baku and ordered that he be “freed from the term of his punishment.”

    Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev promoted Safarov to the rank of major and the Defense Ministry of Azerbaijan provided him with an apartment and over eight years of back pay.

    First time hearing of this, this is pretty insane, why do they hate eachother so much?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Dmitry
    , @Rahan
  34. @SIMP simp

    Interesting. I don’t know a lot about this conflict, but I just lazily accepted the stereotype that Azeris are just hopelessly incompetent. And if they are capable of improvement, then inevitably the Armenians will be screwed eventually. Unless Mother Russia helps them out.

  35. I see the Azeris have been engaging in some serious cultural vandalism

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/mar/01/monumental-loss-azerbaijan-cultural-genocide-khachkars

    they reward officers who hack Armenians to death at a NATO training establishment

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/may/25/relatives-armenian-axed-death-by-azeri-officer-call-justice-ramil-safarov

    and they shoot across the border at civilians, not in the disputed enclave but in Armenia proper.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/02/living-in-one-of-europes-frozen-conflicts-movses-nagorno-karabakh

    Anzhela Ayvazyan’s granddaughter was coming out of kindergarten when the shooting started. As soon as the five-year-old heard the gunfire, she put her head down and ran straight home. “She’s a clever girl,” says Ayvazyan, “she knew not to stop anywhere.”

    This time nobody was hurt, but everyone knows that in Movses, a tiny village in the north-east Berd region of Armenia, the snipers will attack again. As Ayvazyan says, “it’s just a matter of time.”

    For families in Movses, this attack in late July is part of daily life. The village sits just 300m from the Azerbaijani border and locals say that 90% of their village is under surveillance from an Azeri observation post to the east, with many homes in plain view of snipers.

    Ararat Avalian, the mayor of Movses, has lived in the village for all his 55 years. “You can hardly find anyone whose house does not bear bullet marks,” he says. His house was shelled in September last year. “They just shoot randomly. They know people live in the area, so they are sure at least a little harm will come to someone.”

    • Agree: Yevardian
  36. @Anatoly Karlin

    I dont think Azerbaijan is the most areligious Muslim country, Albania or Kazakhstan would be better

  37. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    My support for the Armenians is overdetermined:
    1. Armenians are Christians
    2. Azeris are Muslims (bonus points for Sunnis)
    3. Azeris are Turks
    4. Israel is on the side of Azerbaijan

    To quote Gladstone:

    Let me endeavor, very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. ….. They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @AP
    , @Dmitry
  38. AaronB says:

    From what I can gather online, the Azeris see the Armenians as cunning and ambitious, and as more educated, cultured, and sophisticated than them. They also have a belief that the Armenians caused the Russians to discriminate against them, which is why they failed to become prominent professionals.

    In other words, it’s the old human story of envy and resentment of the more successful. It is one of the classic human motifs – right there in the myth of Cain and Abel, at the dawn of history.

    This is one of the most basic and elemental of human dramas, and repeats itself all over the world in a million different ways. A huge portion of the world’s conflicts have this as their root.

    The poor Azeri officer obviously had a massive inferiority complex – when the Armenians smiled at him, he instinctively thought they were mocking him, when they were just being friendly. That’s sad.

    The only way out is to not be ambitious. Ambition plus lack of success sets the stage for envy and resentment.

  39. @Kent Nationalist

    Azeris are primarily indigenous Indo-Iranian people that were later Turkified. I suppose something similar could be said of Turks i.e. they are primarily Anatolian people that were Turkified.

    • Replies: @AP
  40. Rahan says:

    Hardware info
    https://armedforces.eu/Azerbaijan
    https://armedforces.eu/Turkey

    Turkey is actually a player as strong as France/Italy.

  41. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    Some indirect blame (quite limited, if any) might fall on the Americans

    I knew that I could count on you, RT.

  42. @another anon

    I’m laughing at these anarchist faggots pretending they aren’t 100% on the side of America

  43. Quite funny that ‘WASBAPPIN’ and BAP are just different aesthetics with the same geopolitical upshot

  44. AP says:
    @Agathoklis

    Although they speak a Turkic language, Azeris are Shiites like Iranians, rather than Sunnis like Turks. Also Zoroastrianism survived there for a long time though none of its adherent remain (an ancient fire temple still exists in Baku, as a tourist attraction). Azeris celebrate the pre-Islamic Persian New Year holiday.

    Baku was extremely pleasant. Very safe, secular, clean, with friendly people and wonderful food. Although secular, it is modest – girls almost never wear hijab, but even on hot days they usually don’t wear short skirts either as they do in Russia or Ukraine. Oil wealth is often spent on public projects – for example their perekhods (passages under streets so you can cross without getting into traffic, common throughout the ex-USSR) are often in marble and have escalators; the police cars are BMWs. There’s a very nice promenade along the Caspian Sea. Everyone speaks Russian, so you can get by if you speak decent Russian. I spoke Ukrainian with my kids. More than once a local told me that Donbas was like Karabakh, they are with us.

    To get approved for a visa you have to declare that you are not of Armenian descent lol.

  45. Maybe the Armenians and Azeris could reconcile through the power of True (gay) Love? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artush_and_Zaur

    Artush and Zaur is a novel by Azerbaijani writer and journalist Ali Akbar (alias of Alakbar Aliyev) published in 2009. It narrates the love story of two fictional men: Artush Saroyan, an Armenian, and Zaur Jalilov, an Azerbaijani. The novel became a controversy due to the existing enmity between Armenia and Azerbaijan as a result of the ongoing Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, as well as homosexuality being a taboo topic in both societies, despite being made legal in the early 2000s.

    [MORE]

    Controversial Azeri Novel Takes On Double Taboos https://www.rferl.org/a/Controversial_Azeri_Novel_Takes_On_Double_Taboos/1506890.html

    A controversial romance novel about two gay men, one Armenian and the other Azeri, is flying off the shelves in Azerbaijan.

    What’s behind the popularity of Ali Akbar’s novel “Artush and Zaur,” which has sold out at many bookstores? According to Akbar, the book’s political and erotic content was guaranteed to hit a nerve in Azeri society.

    “I started a war against two stereotypes,” Akbar says. “See what people [in Azerbaijan] do these days: either they look for someone’s Armenian origins, or they say, ‘I don’t like you, so you must be gay.’ “

    • LOL: AltSerrice
    • Replies: @songbird
  46. AP says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    2. Azeris are Muslims (bonus points for Sunnis)

    Azeris are Shiites not Sunnis and they are very secular. They make their own wines and cognacs.

    • Agree: Ano4
  47. iffen says:

    Why doesn’t Putin, as legacy protector and power, simply occupy Nagorno-Karabakh oblast?

    Case closed, nuff said.

  48. @AP

    /r/ukraina is, predictably, cheering on the Azeris.

    A win for the Azeris would be a morale boost and an inspiration along the lines of Operation Storm for Ukrainians. This is one reason why Russia should not be indifferent to the fate of Artsakh, even if the Azeris/Turks leave Armenia proper untouched.

    An Armenian victory and hopefully ensuing recognition of Artsakh should on the contrary further undermine the unreasonable sanctity that accrues to sovok borders.

    • Agree: Yevardian
  49. • Replies: @Beckow
    , @silviosilver
  50. joniel says:
    @reiner Tor

    For most Armenians in the USA, Adam Schiff (grand inquisitor of Russiagate) is their congressman. If they are such a powerful lobby, what does he do for them?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  51. Tor597 says:

    What are the stakes in this war?

    What happens if Azerbaijan wins totally? Would they try to take back some land or take all of Armenia?

    What if Armenia wins totally? Would they take land from Azerbaijan?

    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
    , @Rahan
  52. @Tor597

    Karabakh is the only thing either side will take.

    • Replies: @Եվարդյան
    , @Avery
  53. @Anatoly Karlin

    r/UACommunity is a slightly closer approximation of the average Ukrainian (though still extremely far) than r/Ukraine
    Its also quite a bit more based in that I know two fellows from there that met up to fight after disagreeing on politics (porokhobot vs vatnik) and neither backed out

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  54. HBD question:
    I always thought that Armenians were very smart based on the obvious achievements of their diaspora (for centuries) and chess performance (bested only by Ashkenazis). On the other hand they don’t participate in PISA. Is there any data allowing to quantify Armenian intelligence and compare to Azerbaijan ?

    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
  55. @AP

    Yes, Azeris has retained some Persian characteristics like celebrating Nowruz. There even remain people in Azerbaijan who speak Iranian languages like the Talysh and Tat. However, Azeri is mutually intelligible with Turkish and they have developed a strong association with Turkey. Given Azerbaijan is largely secular, it is hard for Iran to make inroads based on Shiism. In the case of Azerbaijan, it appears language rather than religion or any other marker has helped to determine their orientation in terms of foreign relations. Of course, politics would be the determining factor i.e. they see greater benefit of close relations with Turkey than Iran.

    • Replies: @SIMP simp
  56. @HyperDupont

    Anecdotally Armenians are smarter but only by a small margin. They’re very happy to perpetuate their stereotype as mountain jews. That said the variance in achievement of their diaspora relative to Azeris and others is not HBD related at all. They simply were expelled many times from their homes forcing them to look elsewhere to live thus giving them more time to get established; Azeris meanwhile were always happy to live in their ancestral home and never had any major reason to emigrate beyond the economic.

    Not many people know this, but the Armenian diaspora is actually larger than the population of Armenia by a factor of almost 3 times (3 million people live in Armenia, the world has 11 million Armenians). Azerbaijan has a very similar proportion, but the thing is they haven’t been that way for as long as the Armenians and its mostly contained to Eastern Bloc nations or former Ottoman lands. Armenia has 1 million people in the United States, meanwhile Azeris have about a third of a million

    • Replies: @HyperDupont
    , @CM
  57. Beckow says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In his defence, he was an orphan. Nation starts with a family, something to keep in mind when choosing national leaders.

    Wasn’t Garry Kasparov from Baku? If he is at all representative of the place, this will not go well for anyone.

  58. @Belarusian Dude

    Thanks.
    Chess performance used indeed to be an indicator not just of national intelligence but also of relative economic retardation because it also meant that a significant fraction of your high IQ young males had limited economic prospects and spent time playing chess instead of studying STEM subjects. OTHO nowadays, you can do coding even from fairly backward places.
    Is there a notable software industry in Armenia?

    • Replies: @Jody longman
  59. Ano4 says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Their hatred goes back hundreds of years. Modern Armenia was just a part of a larger Armenian state that has been conquered by the Ottoman Turks.

    You have probably heard about the Armenian genocide committed by the Young Turks of Mustafa Kemal, That was due to the Armenian Dashnaks attacking Turkish army and Turkish civilians and being helped by the Russian Empire.

    This genocide was just the last of the episodes of Truks ethnic cleansing of the Armenians from their former heartland around the Lake Van. And during hundreds of years the Russian Empire provided assistance to Armenians and accepted their refugees on its soil. In fact, if it was not for Russian assistance and outright protection there would be no independent Armenian state today.

    The Armenian refugees have been resettled to the modern day Azerbaijan territories of the Khanate of Nakhichevan and to what would become Nagornyi Karabakh. In Karabakh the population was mixed, it gradually become more Armenian due to the influx of Ottoman Empire Armenians. Under the Soviets, Armenians were quite close to the Soviet elites, way more so than Azeris. They benefited of this elite status to become even more represented in the Karabakh and Azerbaijan proper, Baku was nearly 30% Armenian in the early 80ies.

    During the Perestroika, Baku become the epicenter of anti-Armenian pogroms. Then violence engulfed Nagornyi Karabakh. The Armenian got ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijan proper, but they expelled the Azeri from the Karabakh. Since then they really dream of destroying each other. If it was not for the pacifying Russian influence, they would have had a big war a couple of decades ago.

  60. songbird says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Printed in Ulan Bator?!

    Azerbaijan is a long way from Mongolia, and Mongolia has very bad roads, last I heard. Was it flown in? Sounds like an op.

  61. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    On the subject of biases, John Batchelor has had a noticeably tilted stance towards Azerbaijan.

    Russia could be a big time peacekeeper/kingmaker, were it to broker a settlement between the two.

    I’ve been of the impression that this is reasonably possible:

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/at-the-crossroads-of-strategic-pipeline-corridors-settling-the-dispute-over-nagorno-karabakh/12967

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/04/15/settling-nagorno-karabakh-and-reviewing-the-peripheral-talking-points/

  62. vot tak says:
    @Beckow

    “Erdogan was itching to attack someone and was blocked by Russia in Syria and by EU in Greece, a few remote goat-infested hills was all that was available.”

    That’s what I thought, zionazi-gay guardianista toss.

    Actually, Turkey is not blocked by israel’s eu in greece. That’s one of your zionazi-gay fantasies, guardianista. Those east Med. gas and oil resources really sparkle in your israeli eyes. Guess what, you wont get them. Neither will you get Syria and Lebanon. You exploit your american quislings to the max now, you things do the same in europe and india, but it’s too late.

    You lost.

  63. Dmitry says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Azeris are Muslims (bonus points for Sunnis)

    Azerbaijanis have Shia heritage, but it’s currently the most secularized Muslim country (along with somewhere like Albania and Kazakhstan, perhaps a few others).

    Azeris are Turks

    Not exactly. Genetically Azerbaijanis are Iranian people, but linguistically they speak a Turkic language.

    Genetically, Armenians are also close to Azerbaijanis and Iranians. Azerbaijanis are also the closest nationality to Armenians genetically. (Although Iranians are the closest genetically for Azerbaijanis)

    4. Israel is on the side of Azerbaijan

    Israel benefits from the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict to the extent that oil money of Azerbaijan is buying Israeli weapons, where they purchase things like rockets and drones (Azerbaijan usually buys most weapons from Russia, but more recently they diversified to Turkey, Israeli and since Trump some US weapons as well – I wonder if Kim Kardashian will try to phone Trump about this).

    rudest outline what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mohammedanism simply

    Azerbaijanis are not “Turkish race”, in terms of blood. But they are linguistically speaking a Turkic language, so categorized can be as Turkic people (in the linguistic sense). Mohammedanism is more cultural heritage there, as most of the population have been secularized and Europeanized since they were part of the USSR and even Russian Empire. A lot of the “European architecture” in Baku is from the Russian Empire days.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @silviosilver
  64. Dmitry says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    hate eachother so much

    The two nationalities are living in a parallel history, with a territorial conflict, and only reconciled when there is sufficient Russian/Soviet power over the region territory. They fall into war when the Russian Empire and Soviet Union collapsed, and lived in peace when Russian Empire and Soviet Union were stable and ascendant rulers.

    Problem is that Russian power in the region is no longer sufficiently dominant, and in the last couple decades Russian influence in the religion relies more on a continuing cold war between Armenia-Azerbaijan, than on the reconciliation that existed when they were part of the Soviet Union. This cold war itself is unstable (and not checked by nuclear weapons of other cold wars – really it is all dependent on Russia to stop this war turning hot).

    In terms of the nationalities themselves, of course, as is universal human nature, the degree of similarity between the neighbouring peoples, is more fuel for conflict between them, than the opposite. (E.g. who most hates Japanese? answer- Koreans; who most hates Serbians? answer – Croatians; who most hates Argentineans? – answer Brazilians; who most hates Russians? answer – Ukrainians; who most hates English? answer – Irish, etc).

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  65. AaronB says:

    Ali & Nino – great novel that takes place in Azerbaijan.

  66. Dmitry says:
    @joniel

    Kim Kardashian is a friend and politically influential with Trump , and Trump gave a $100 million of military aid to Azerbaijan around the same time that Kardashian was presenting joint speeches with him in the White House.

    The problem for Kim Kardashian/Kanye, is that they are just influencing domestic policy with Trump, and perhaps forgot to talk to him, or even notice, his external policy in that region.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  67. CM says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Azerbaijan is the least formally religious of the South Caucasus states, but it’s still the most socially conservative and backwards. They still have forced marriages, beheadings and other customs we associate with the worst of the Muslim world.

    Like Turkey, they think modernity is dying their hair blonde and wearing miniskirts. They don’t actually have the IQ to be modern and make progress. My dad and some colleagues went to Baku and the consensus was the people there were very stupid.

    • Replies: @Rahan
    , @Hyperborean
  68. CM says:
    @Belarusian Dude

    If you ignore the diaspora, the Armenian vs Azeri achievements in the USSR are very different. There has been no Azeri equivalent to Viktor Ambartsumian, Alexander Kemurdzhian or Abram Alikhanov, despite their larger population. Furthermore, Armenians were for centuries the dominant professional and merchant class in the South Caucasus. Armenians had a larger role in building Baku than Azeris did, for example.

    And right now, Armenia’s tech scene is thriving, while Azerbaijan’s is non-existent.

  69. Druid says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    Wow, you talk like a jiuw chosen! Shame on you!

  70. @Anatoly Karlin

    Sorry, you can’t dump everything on the commies. This is Russia’s fault. Russia should have stomped the living fuckola out of these islamo-turkoid pieces of utmost filth back when hardly a soul would have said boo about it. (Then later, if need be, you could have played the same denial game as the scum of the earth Turk does today, and dared your detractors to try and do anything about it.) But did you do that? Noooo. Faggots.

  71. Rahan says:
    @Tor597

    What are the stakes in this war?

    Imagine that Armenia is Greece, Azerbaijan is Turkey, and Karabakh is Cyprus. If Greece and Turkey go to war over Cyprus, the immediate stakes are Cyprus.

    The larger stakes are the world standing of Greece and Turkey after the war, as in a) who does business with them and who stops, b) who treats them in a friendly way and who doesn’t, and c) who accepts them as allies and who doesn’t.

    Additional stakes may be the fate of those countries, as sometimes unpredictable war developments have been known to get a country to go into collapse, either terminal, or termporary.

    Thus, concerning Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Karabakh. Variations:
    1) Azerbaijan takes Karabakh and absorbs it, displacing the Armenians living there.
    2) Armenia helps Karabakh fight off Azerbaijan
    3) Turkey throws weight behind Azerbaijan and Russia throws weight behind Armenia
    4) Armenia and Russia and allies declare Karabakh a sovereign country (up to now it’s neither here nor there)

    Furthermore, as Cyprus is to Greece (same ethnicity), and as Karabakh is to Armenia, so is Azerbaijan itself to Iran. Thus far Iran can’t risk alienating Russia by throwing itself behind the “cousins” in Azerbaijan, and instead allowed Turkey to become its protector. But who knows. 2020 is weird.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  72. @Dmitry

    Azerbaijanis are not “Turkish race”, in terms of blood. But they are linguistically speaking a Turkic language, so categorized can be as Turkic people (in the linguistic sense).

    Giving the slightest fuck about such technical details is a sure sign that you’re not right in the head. If this were my blog, any hint of equivocation about who the good guys are in this conflict or the utter human worthlessness of Azeri slime would be met with an instant banning and call to anyone who knows you in real life to beat you senseless on sight.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  73. The Azeris might be ultra-nationalists who want and demand war (“End the quarantine, start the war!” was an actual slogan during their anti-Armenian protests this July, which at least had the dubious honor of being far more based than the Belorussian ones) but presumably they want to win it, not lose it ignominiously.

    Yes yes yes. Three times yes.
    War is based and red pilled, war is great.

    When I used to be cringe blue pilled normie, i used to think that war is bad.
    Now, once I am based and red pilled, I know that war is good, and in modern world it is better than ever before. It is good because it pushes humanity forwards.

    Who are main victims of wars?

    No, it is not women as said one infamous loser.
    The losers are the main victims of war, as said one famous winner.

    Losers who cannot find a way to avoid conscription, losers who cannot find a way to leave war zone, and the greatest losers of all, losers who swallowed propaganda hook, line and sinker and voluntarily enlisted.

    In modern world, where travel is easy, refugee status is a thing and second (third, fourth, etc…) passports are easy to get, only true losers, the pure distilled essence of loserdom, have to be stuck in war.

    The more wars rage on, the more loser genes are eliminated from humanity gene pool and the more humanity progresses.

    What can you do to help? Everyone can help!
    If you want to make difference, became patriotic war monger. In the Internet age, anyone can do it from any place in the world. Anyone can sit in warm room on comfortable chair and create war propaganda to get the most impressionable morons to enlist and die.

    It is easy, it is safe and it is fun. Everyone can work for better world with less ugly losers and more beautiful winners.

    Three cheers for war! Bring it on!

    • Disagree: Sher Singh
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @another anon
  74. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Rahan

    Imagine that Armenia is Greece, Azerbaijan is Turkey, and Karabakh is Cyprus. If Greece and Turkey go to war over Cyprus, the immediate stakes are Cyprus.

    Turkey already has northern Cyprus. The Armenian position is diplomatically compromised by not formally recognizing Nagorno Karabakh as being either independent or a part of Armenia.

    Thus far Iran can’t risk alienating Russia by throwing itself behind the “cousins” in Azerbaijan, and instead allowed Turkey to become its protector. But who knows. 2020 is weird.

    Relatively speaking, Armenia and Iran have pretty decent relations. In Iran, there’re sizeable Azeri and Armenian populations.

  75. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    In terms of the nationalities themselves, of course, as is universal human nature, the degree of similarity between the neighbouring peoples, is more fuel for conflict between them, than the opposite. (E.g. who most hates Japanese? answer- Koreans; who most hates Serbians? answer – Croatians; who most hates Argentineans? – answer Brazilians; who most hates Russians? answer – Ukrainians; who most hates English? answer – Irish, etc).

    The Russo-Ukrainian relationship is more like the English-Scot variant, with Russians-Poles more closely resembling the situation with the Irish and English dominated Brits.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  76. Mikhail says: • Website

  77. Rahan says:
    @CM

    Like Turkey, they think modernity is dying their hair blonde and wearing miniskirts.

    Now, now, this is exactly the way things should be, when done properly.

    https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.VV5DI93fJzld7X9D8ET7tQHaJb

    Concerning IQ. There are various online resources showing different average IQ levels by country. As well as PISA levels, which tend to overlap almost completely.

    (Rule of thumb markers: if Nigeria, Iran, and Pakistan score similar values at around 80+, while South Africa scores in the upper 70s, the list is legit. If the values are different, the list is dilettante stuff)

    Azerbaijan scores lower than Eastern Europe (including Armenia and Georgia) and white South America, but scores higher than the aforementioned Iran, Pakistan, and also India, the Philippines, Uzbekistan, and the darker Latino countries such as Venezuela, Salvador, Guatemala, etc.

    Thus, Azerbaijan scores in terms of basic average intelligence, exactly on the level of Brazil or Indonesia. In these places, as well as India and the Philippines, you have enough raw population bulk, to be able to find enough smart people to run society in a more or less OK manner, if the elites are capable. You can even be one of the world’s producers of modern aero and rocket tech.

    Azerbaijan does not have such a big population, but it does have oil money. In theory, it could become the most affluent and hightech country of the region. But not yet.

  78. Exile says: • Website

    I’m not picking a side in this beyond saying that if it comes to a multi-polar-power solution, Russia should call the shots, not ZOG. It’s in Russia’s sphere of influence. Turkish membership in NATO is an aberration and incitement that doesn’t work for either “bloc.”

    Israel’s with the Azeris, the Ashkepath diaspora in America is siding with the Kardashians. Even the Elders of Zion get divided over this Balkan stuff.

    Endless chaos-fuel. Khorne rejoices.

    America and Europe should heed the advice of Bismarck re: the Balkans and the bones of Prussian grenadiers.

  79. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I’ll always support the Infidels against Muslims period and yes that includes Israel.

  80. I find it odd how Kim Kardashian seems to be some sort of hardline Armenian nationalist, as well as other ethnic “celeb” women like Dua Lipa and Rita Ora in regards to Albania/Kosovo. Priyanka Chopra also seems to publicly defend the actions of the Indian government against foreign countries as well.

    I find it strange because I can’t imagine a native British “celeb”, especially a woman ever defending Britain over anything, quite the opposite in fact. That sort of talk would be regarded as racist jingoism in Britain if said by a British person defending Britain.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @songbird
  81. @another anon

    Losers who cannot find a way to avoid conscription, losers who cannot find a way to leave war zone, and the greatest losers of all, losers who swallowed propaganda hook, line and sinker and voluntarily enlisted.

    In modern world, where travel is easy, refugee status is a thing and second (third, fourth, etc…) passports are easy to get, only true losers, the pure distilled essence of loserdom, have to be stuck in war.

    The more wars rage on, the more loser genes are eliminated from humanity gene pool and the more humanity progresses.

    You seem to think that psychopathy is a positive quality. It is not.

  82. @Mikhail

    Russian and Ukrainian are actually different languages though. Northern English dialects, like Geordie, on a continuum are closer to Scots than they are to Standard (Southern) English, so you’re basically saying that there is as much distance between different regions of England as Russia and Ukraine?

    Maybe you’re right, but to my mind a common sense observation of Russia and Ukraine and their relations suggests to me that you’re being disingenuous in suggesting the distance is directly comparable to England and Scotland.

    • Troll: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @AP
    , @Mikhail
  83. Wielgus says:

    The Turkish media are very much supporting Azerbaijan and talking of Armenian “aggression”. One news channel even managed to work the Kurdish PKK into it, saying the latter support Armenia.

  84. Wielgus says:
    @Europe Europa

    Someone once described a language as a dialect with an army and navy. In the mid-1990s I noticed Langenscheidt had produced a Bosnian pocket dictionary, although to all intents and purposes the language was Croatian.

  85. Wielgus says:
    @Europe Europa

    Eliza Dushku, who is of Albanian descent, wore a garment with the Albanian eagle symbol on it in at least one film she was in (Wrong Turn, which is quite a good B movie if a little over the top).

  86. AP says:
    @Europe Europa

    FYI despite his name on here, Mikhail speaks neither Ukrainian nor Russian and has visited neither place.

    • Troll: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  87. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You lie yet again.

    • Replies: @AP
  88. SIMP simp says:
    @Agathoklis

    The biggest issue is that the southern half of historical Azerbaijan remained in Iran when the north was conquered by the tzars, so a strong azeri state will create secession pressure in Iran among their own millions of azeris that represent 16% of Iran’s population and the majority in their region. That’s why Azerbaijan and Israel have allied against Iran since the 90’s.

  89. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Europe Europa

    Russian and Ukrainian are actually different languages though. Northern English dialects, like Geordie, on a continuum are closer to Scots than they are to Standard (Southern) English, so you’re basically saying that there is as much distance between different regions of England as Russia and Ukraine?

    Maybe you’re right, but to my mind a common sense observation of Russia and Ukraine and their relations suggests to me that you’re being disingenuous in suggesting the distance is directly comparable to England and Scotland.

    This matter has been previously discussed at these threads with your participation. Is Scottish Gaelic closer to English than Ukrainian is to Russian? In Scotland, there has been a regional difference in how Scots have tended to view the Brit dominated UK. Such a regional difference has been evident in Ukraine.

    BTW, some of what you say supports my contention. Russians in southern Russia, near Ukraine’s Communist drawn boundary are known for having a Russian language accent similar to what’s evident across the border in Ukraine. There’s also the Russo-Ukrainian Surzhyk dialect.

    The analogy of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus being more like England, Wales and Scotland, with Russia-Poland being more like Ireland-Brit dominated UK stands. Keeping in mind that no analogy is 100% identical.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  90. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Wielgus

    There’s also a categorized Montenegrin language as if Serbian is so different from it. Prior to the Yugo breakup, it was more common to see Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian as the same language (Serbo-Croat) with some limited differences. The major being alphabet – Croats favoring Latin and Serbs Cyrillic, with Bosnians being a bit more mixed on the matter. Among Serbs, Latin has seen increased use among Serbs.

    Prior to the Yugo breakup, an Albanian nationalist teacher I had said that he spoke Serbo-Croatian.

    • Agree: Wielgus
  91. @HyperDupont

    Yes, they have improved and invested greatly in I.T.
    I heard that they have free centers to teach programming to children.

    PICSART for instance is an Armenian founded company with headquarters in Yerevan and San Francisco, in USA we have a lot of software companies outsourcing to Armenia.
    The cost is low with exceptional delivery.

  92. songbird says:
    @Europe Europa

    People who miscegenate with blacks are surely not nationalists but something else.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  93. Wielgus says:
    @Mikhail

    I still think in terms of Serbo-Croat. If people want to pretend these are all distinct languages, even if they understand every word of the “foreign” language and speak something very similar if not identical, that is up to them.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @Mikhail
  94. @Mikhail

    Only a small minority of Scots historically spoke Gaelic though, basically immigrants who came from Ireland to the Scottish highlands. The native language of lowland Scots, who are the vast majority of Scots, is English/”Scots”.

    Saying the English and Scots are different people because a minority spoke Gaelic is surely comparable to saying Karelians, for instance, are not Russian because a minority of the Karelian population speak/used to speak a Finnic language and not Russian/Slavic.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @Mikhail
  95. @Anatoly Karlin

    I think it’s clear that the Armenians have higher human capital and morale despite Azerbaijan’s economic and demographic advantage.

    Still, this looks precarious for the Armenian side. Azeri artillery and especially the Turkish Drones seem to be doing serious damage to the Armenians. The Azeris could possibly push further and begin to seriously crack Armenian defenses if they persist for long enough. I have the feeling Armenians may soon find themselves in a situation as dire as Operation Goranboy in 1993, or worse, in the coming days and weeks (so far their counter-offensive was good but this is only the start imo):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goranboy

    Hopefully the Armenians will be able to successfully resist, or at least as long as possible, to delay and bog Turkey down as much as possible since it’s much better for Turkey to be busy with the Caucasus than supporting Albanians and Bosniaks in the Balkans (Bakir Izetbegovic declared full support for Azerbaijan and said Armenia is in the wrong along the lines of Erdogan making it obvious for me whom to support).

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  96. @Wielgus

    There’s clearly significantly more distance between Russian and Ukrainian than between the “Serbo-Croatian” languages though. The general consensus among linguists is the latter is more comparable to the distance between British and American English.

    Although on a related note the Serbo-Croatian languages prove beyond doubt that speaking the same language is irrelevant where nationalism is concerned and does nothing to promote unity. Language is probably the least important factor in identity by far.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @silviosilver
  97. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Armenia and Azerbaijan seem about on par to me in terms of human capital. I don’t see any practical evidence that Armenia has a higher IQ. The assumption seems to be that Armenians are Christian, therefore they must be more intelligent than the Muslim Azeris, but plenty of black African nations are devoutly Christian so clearly religion doesn’t account for much in regards intelligence.

    Azerbaijan has the advantage as far as I can see because of their greater wealth as a result of their oil industry, and the fact Turkey is likely to back them up because they see them as Turkic kin, and also because Turkey is not big on Armenia either, infamously so.

  98. Wielgus says:
    @Europe Europa

    Gaelic was brought to Scotland from Ireland (it is likely but not certain that Pictish, present in Scotland, was another Celtic language). However, it was once spoken in a much wider area of Scotland than at present, including southwest Scotland (Galloway). William Dunbar, a poet from around the year 1500, engaged in a famous battle of insults with Walter Kennedy who was from Galloway and alludes to him being a Gaelic speaker, which to Dunbar was barbarous.
    Foreign observers of Scots in the late Middle Ages/Renaissance noted that they were basically two different peoples, which suggests they did not see the Gaelic-speaking ones as a negligible minority. A Spaniard wrote that one group spoke a language in the same relation to English as Aragonese is to Castilian, while another group spoke a language as different from it as Basque is from Castilian. The second category was Gaelic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flyting_of_Dumbar_and_Kennedie

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  99. AP says:
    @Europe Europa

    In Russia, Armenians partially took over/spoiled academic institutions where they run bribery schemes and push out native Russians. Azeris had done something similar but with street markets. This suggests higher human capital for Armenians.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
  100. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    You speak neither Russian nor Ukrainian. Correct?

    Have you been to Ukraine?

    Have you been to Russia?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  101. Yevardian says:

    More than once a local told me that Donbas was like Karabakh, they are with us.

    Yes, both part of fake and gay countries that should be partitioned as soon as possible, both for the region’s inhabitants and for broader humanity.

  102. El Dato says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    That tweet seems to have incurred the wrath of Twitter Jack and his black dildo collection.

    Meanwhile:

    Ethnic Armenian mega-star Kim Kardashian West weighs in on Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, slams Azerbaijan for ‘unprovoked attacks’

    I seriously took a minute mulling who Kim Kardashian East might be.

    Looking forward to an Economist cover.

  103. @Anatoly Karlin

    AK: Replied.

    [MORE]

    Unban me pls, in fairness endorsing that comment slandering you as pedo was a bit strong and I changed it (you can’t cancel buttons from what I can tell), but nonetheless I found your mocking attitude towards conservatives being ‘irrationally hysterical’ about paedophilia quite disgusting and in extremely bad taste.

    And no, I don’t think much of the neoliberal economic policy of the current Russian government, at all. It’s easy to see that the Duma is full of crooks, imbeciles and thieves without cheering for people like Kasparov.

    – Yevardian

    AK: It was not a “bit strong”, it was completely unacceptable. I have no obligation to allow such people to comment on my blog. But at least you retracted instead of digging in. Unbanned.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  104. El Dato says:
    @Dmitry

    or even notice, his external policy in that region.

    It would be hard to notice the Prez’s “external policy” in anything. Except Israel.

    The Pompeo policy is something else, but I don’t follow mobsters.

  105. Ano4 says:
    @AP

    And that’s why I have no love lost for either side of their perennial conflict. I wish them both good luck in bringing each other down and wish Russia stays out of it.

    Russia saving both Armenians and Georgians from a near certain extermination by their Muslim neighbors only brought the likes of Dzhugashvilli and Mikoyan to power in Russia proper. Great benefit that was to the Russian people (sarcastic).

    One cannot change the past, but one needs learning from it. There should be no Russian lives nor Russian wealth lost to help any one of the “small but proud nations of the Caucasus ” let them kill, rob and enslave each other as they did for centuries prior to the civilization attempt by the White Tzar.

    In fact, maybe Turkey taking back the whole of the Caucasus wouldn’t be a bad thing. The locals have been complaining about muh Russian tyranny for quite long, let them taste the Turkish benevolence instead. Let the Chechens live the life of Turkish Kurds and the Georgians get the treatment they wholly deserve at the hands of their Ottoman masters. Let the Turks waste their time, lives and resources with these “proud dzhighits”…

  106. @Belarusian Dude

    If the Azeris take Artsakh there will be at best mass deportations and destruction of priceless historical heritage and at worst genocide, it’s not a minor matter. If those savages win the current war it will hardly be the last war of aggression either.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  107. Rahan says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    In the beginning we were greeting each other, or rather they said “hi” to me but I didn’t respond. The reason why I committed the murder was that they passed by and smiled in our face. At that moment I decided to kill them, i.e. to saw their heads off…

    Good Lord, that’s on the level of the average inner city Negro who punches and rapes a random white grandma in order to have revenge for muh slavery.

    And when the authorities rewarded him for this, well… This tempts one to use the internets slur “sand niggers”. Azeris may not be “sand” as such, but “oil” definitely. Oil niggers. Low IQ thugs with a chip on their collective shoulder. Should always have a machine gun trained on them when in any sort of contact.

  108. Epigon says:
    @Եվարդյան

    “The Armenian cries out in pain as he insults you.”

    • Agree: Exile
    • LOL: reiner Tor
  109. Epigon says:
    @Եվարդյան

    That won’t happen, though.

    Azeris seem only competent at utilizing drones and suicide drones to strike fixed and entrenched/AFV targets.

    It seems to me that Armenian minelaying and infantry ATGM teams have exacted a very heavy toll on the advancing Azeris.

    Honestly, seeing huge queu lines of volunteers and reservists in Armenia proper, ready to go fight, settles the outcome of the war in my opinion.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  110. Ano4 says:

    Слушай Хачи, иди лесом обратно в твои горы. С моей точки зрения, ваши разборки с носатыми Азерскими зверьками это тема в духе “е*ала жаба гадюку”. Для меня вы оба хуже…

    I hope this answers your question.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  111. @Europe Europa

    Modestly higher on IQ tests. Anecdotally, more achievements (e.g. I can think of several Armenian greats in chess – even if Kasparov as a half-Jew doesn’t count – and classical music, but no Azeris).

    There’s also this (though Georgians being so high up does also suggest nepotism): https://www.unz.com/akarlin/soviet-scientists/

    [MORE]

  112. @Mikhail

    Multiple Croats have told me it’s the same language, Serbo-Croatian. (I haven’t asked Serbs about it.) They said that’s what they were taught at school.

  113. @Europe Europa

    It’s a very important factor, but occasionally is overwritten by other factors.

  114. @Europe Europa

    Well, most Armenians live well outside of the Caucasus region, long-entrenched emigrant communities tend (by necessity) to excel in certain areas and maintain high social cohesion. As far as counting ‘Azeris’, you need to include most Iranian Turks for a fair comparison, so I suppose you could count the mass-revival of Millenarian Shiism as an Azeri ‘contribution’, albeit of questionable worth.

    Practical evidence? Well, a country with vast oil deposits has repeatedly lost or stalemated against a landlocked, brain-drained opponent with no real natural resources to speak of and about half its population. Genetically speaking, it’s even quite likely a plurality of Azeris descend from proletarian or mercenary-minded Armenians who gave up their religion and identity under Muslim rule. The same pattern shows up all over the Middle-East, not because they’re ‘Christian’ (or numerous others) but because it often points to strength of character or ability to maintain an ethno-religious identity against centuries of discrimination. I think it might even apply to Hui Muslims in China, though I’m not sure.

  115. Ano4 says:
    @Ano4

    That was intended as an answer to a question asked to me by commenter Եվարդյան. Given that his comment and question have disappeared somehow, my reply is no longer needed. I ask therefore that AK or any moderators out there in the depths of Unz Review cyberspace erase it. Thanks!

  116. Vendetta says:

    One notable exception where the balance of military power has not yet swung in Azerbaijan’s favor is in the air. The air forces are both pint sized but the Armenians hold a major qualitative advantage with their four Su-30SM Flankers. These are fully up to date fighters, the same model currently flying in the Russian Air Force.

    Azerbaijan’s fighter force consists of a dozen MiG-29s, old Soviet-era models without any substantial modernization. The Su-30SM’s advantage over them in air-to-air combat would be overwhelming, particularly at longer ranges. Until Azerbaijan acquires some more modern fighter jets, they stand little chance of winning an air-to-air battle, thus imposing serious limitations on the level of close air support they can give their forces (the other half of their Air Force is Su-25 Frogfoots, which can’t operate when the enemy has air superiority).

    This is why the Azeris have relied heavily on small attack drones, targets too low-value to risk sending the Flankers after (the Azeris do have a couple batteries of the S-300 lurking around on their side).

  117. @reiner Tor

    Yes, it’s the same language but that language is the Serbian language.

    To be specific it’s the Shtokavian Ijekavian Dialect of Serb East Herzegovina and Krajina that the Croats officially adopted despite speaking only their Chakavian and Kajkavian dialects, in order to assimilate all Serbs since the 19th century. The “Croatian language” is literally a machine of Serb absorption and elimination whose accents and artificial modifications sound cancerous.

    Unfortunately Serb intellectuals were too dumb and naive in the 19th century, with only a few aware and alert, of the fake Croat nation menace to Serbs so they agreed on “Serbo-Croat” language (1850 Vienna Agreement and 1954 Novi-Sad Ageement) that officialized the beginning of Croat assimilation and appropriation of Serb culture and heritage to be intensified and complemented by extermination and cleansing of Serbs in the 20th century.

    This ability to appropriate and steal Serbian language would lead to the “Bosnian and Montenegrin language” circus being added onto this during SFRY that lives on to the present day. An excellent example of fake nation engineering …

    • Replies: @Եվարդյան
  118. @reiner Tor

    My serb and croat friends talk to each other without any kid of difficulty, it’s the same thing frankly. Serbo-croat is also pretty much mutually intelligible with Bulgarian despite both languages being separate.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  119. I love how in a thread about the Caucasus we still see the opening phases of hoholsrach

  120. @Wielgus

    So using the same logic Karelians aren’t Russian then because that area natively spoke a Finnic language?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  121. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Actually, I was curious to read recently that Chakavian and especially Kajkavian aren’t even mutually intelligible with Shtokavian, the latter of which was barely spoken in Croatia, and certainly not in Zagreb, prior to WW1. Quite bizzare.. it’s as if Portugal adopted Spanish, discarded its own centuries old language as a dialect, and called it’s accented Spanish ‘Porto-Castillian’ upon regaining it’s independence after the Peninsula War. Really strange.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  122. @Wielgus

    I noticed Langenscheidt had produced a Bosnian pocket dictionary, although to all intents and purposes the language was Croatian.

    Check again. It was always all Serbian language …

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  123. @Եվարդյան

    Quite bizzare.. it’s as if Portugal adopted Spanish, discarded its own centuries old language as a dialect, and called it’s accented Spanish ‘Porto-Castillian’ upon regaining it’s independence … Really strange.

    Yeah, to me it’s interesting how small the leap from appropriating language to hangings on willow trees, concentration camps for children, and baby boiling truly is …

    Fortunately the Portugese and Spanish avoided any of this in 1492 with the Reconquista and don’t have to risk any sort of Portugese or Spanish of the Muslim Faith pretending to be real nations while appropriating the culture and heritage of the natives as a treacherous fifth column …

  124. Ano4 says:

    Russian deputy prime minister Mishustin, foreign minister Lavrov and chief international propagandist Simonyan all have Armenian origins. The influence of Armenian diaspora in Russa is very strong. Russia has always protected, helped and abated Armenians in their struggle against their Muslim neighbors.

    What did Russia get in return:

    1) Anti-Russian Armenian terrorism in the XIX century in the Caucasus and Russia proper (Karakozov killing Tzar Alexander).

    2) Massive Armenian involvement into Menshevism, Bolshevism during the revolution and Soviet terror against Slav populations of the USSR

    3) The Armenische Legion fighting alongside the Nazis.

    4) Nepotism and ethnocentric mafia-like behavior by the Armenian diaspora in Soviet times.

    5( Armenian nationalist terrorist bombings in Moscow in 1977.

    6) Active promotion of Armenian separatism during Perestroika

    7) Armenian cooperation with NATO

    8) Armenian support to Georgia during the 2008 war

    9) An anti-Russian colour revolution in Armenia in 2018

    With friends like these who needs enemies?

    As the Russian saying goes: “Where an Armenian passed a Jew has nothing left to do”.

    I say send all Armenians from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus back to their mountains. Let them sort it out with the Azeri Turks. This is not a Slav war.

    Send all Azeris back to their homeland as well. Let these proud Caucasus nations kill each other and applause their accomplishments from afar.

    • Replies: @Avery
  125. @silviosilver

    This is why I pay you to post here. You make me look calm and reasonable.

  126. @Epigon

    Armenia’s ambassador to Russia just announced that Armenia will use Iskander missiles if Turkey uses F-16’s in Artsakh.

    Looks like the Armenians may be fine after all, although we’ll see.

  127. Avery says:
    @Belarusian Dude

    {Karabakh is the only thing either side will take.}

    Since you are a self-identified Belarusian Dude, would you please kindly refrain from making prognostications about a region and history that you are ill-informed about?
    I am saying that based on your completely delusional statement.
    I am of Armenian ancestry: it would be the same if I made grandiose prognostications about the future of Belarus. (of which I know very little about)

    Here is the real history.

    The fake country of Azerbaijan did not exist a 100 years ago.
    There is no such ethnos as ‘Azeri’.
    The indigenous people of the area now called Azerbaijan are Iranian-stock peoples: Talysh, Tats, Lezgins, etc.
    Nomad Turk tribes from East and Central Asia invaded Caucasus and Asia Minor centuries ago.
    The nomad Turkic tribes that squatted near the Caspian sea gradually took over, and ethnically cleansed, forcibly Turkified, or wiped out the indigenous Iranian peoples.
    Today the Turk invaders oppress the indigenous peoples therein, such as Talysh.
    The name ‘Azerbaijan’ was deliberately chosen by Stalin with the idea of laying a future claim to Northern Iranian provinces of Azarbaijan.
    Interestingly, the Aliyev Crime Family is of Kurd stock: but they are Turkified.

    Artsakh aka Nagorno-Karabagh has been Armenian ancestral land for more than 5,000 years.
    When Bolsheviks invaded Caucasus, Stalin placed NK under the jurisdiction of the newly cooked up Azerbaijan SSR. Divide and Conquer. Artsakh, which was 95% Armenian populated at that time, gradually lost Armenians due to ethnic cleansing and importation of Turks from Azerbaijan.

    At the outbreak of NKR war (1988-1994), Artsakh had been reduced to 75% Armenian.
    Thank God, after the war the nomad squatters gathered their tents, their sheep, and left Artsakh.

    Another historic Armenian region, Nakhichevan, has been completely ethnically cleansed of its indigenous Armenians. Zero % Armenians left there.
    The nomad Turkic savages completely destroyed 1,000s of Armenian Christian cross-stones (Khachkars) in Nakhichevan a few years. These were centuries old works of art.
    Real nomad savages.

    Back to the original prognostication:

    It has been a dream of nomad Turks to completely exterminate any remaining Armenians in their historic homelands of Armenian Highlands. It is a mythic dream of Turks to complete an unbroken Pan-Turanic chain of Turkic peoples from Bosphorus to Altai mountain and Uyguristan, their original homelands.
    Armenia stands in the way.
    Main reason Russia backs Armenia, it does not want Armenia to disappear, because an unbroken chain of hostile Muslim Turkic republics under its Southern belly will be very, very bad for her security.

    The Turks – both the Caspian Turks and Asia Minor Turks – will never stop trying to wipe out Armenia.
    Loss of Artsakh will mean the eventual loss of Armenia.
    Turks will never stop trying to wipe out ALL Armenians from the region.
    Never.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Jazman
  128. Armenia threatens to involve Russia if they end up facing defeats:

    MOSCOW, September 28. /TASS/. Armenia is ready to request additional military assistance from Russia but sees no reason to do it at the moment, Armenian Ambassador to Moscow Vardan Toganyan told the Govorit Moskva radio station on Monday.

    According to him, Yerevan and Moscow continue to boost defense cooperation. “We believe that should the need arise, we will request Russia [for additional military assistance],” the envoy pointed out. “As of today, we don’t think that we need additional troops or other forces,” he added.

    “However, we do believe that Russia has a major role in the Caucasus and is capable of using political methods to put an end to bloodshed,” Toganyan emphasized.

    https://tass.com/world/1205929

    Maybe nothing “real” happens, but given that Erdogan’s ego is involved in this affair this is yet another Agadir moment.

  129. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Europe Europa

    Anglicization is a greater reality than Russification.

    Your Karelian comment drifts away from the analogies I made.

  130. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Wielgus

    Though in great decline, I’m somewhat reminded of the Queens, Bronx and Brooklyn accents in NY.

  131. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    The lying troll in you strikes again. Tell you what punk, substantiate who you actually are and I can get more detailed as well. I’ve been to that part of the world.

    • Replies: @AP
  132. @Avery

    Main reason Russia backs Armenia, it does not want Armenia to disappear, because an unbroken chain of hostile Muslim Turkic republics under its Southern belly will be very, very bad for her security.

    “My Russia- An Autobiography by former Russian Prime Minister Gennady Burbulis”

    Published by Interbook, © 1998

    CHAPTER THIRTEEN

    Listening to Zhirinovsky give his bizarre “Greater Turkestan” speech I secretly thought that perhaps I should speak up. But I could see in the eyes of my comrades, both conservative and reformist, that they all were thinking the same thing. Can he be serious? This is madness! Just moments ago we were unable to agree on anything, but now we had something we could agree upon.

    “I have received clear and convincing evidence that the Turks, along side NATO and their Zionist overlords, have plans to finally accomplish their long sought after dream of a “Greater Turkestan,” Zhirinovsky said as he displayed a map that featured a fictional account of what he perceived as the borders of this new Turkish empire, “if we do not act now, this Turkish empire will run from Istanbul, through Crimea, all the way to the Kamchatka peninsula.”

    I sat speechless as Zhirinovsky spoke, looking over at Federal Union president Viktor Alksnis. I was somewhat comforted by the appalled look on his face. He couldn’t hide his disdain for the idiocy he was being presented with as he sat there incredulous with his mouth wide open.

    “This seems highly suspect,” Alksnis said dismissively, “what evidence is there that Turkey is planning to invade the Soviet Union-

    “The Democratic Union,” Zhirinovsky said curtly.

    “-Of course. What sort of evidence do you have that Turkey would dare invade us.”

    “I have received reports that there has been a great deal of NATO military activity on the Georgian border,” Zhirinovsky replied, “and I feel that if we do not act soon, NATO can and will expand into Azerbaijan and from there create a Turkish Union with the Central Asian Republics. If we don’t act now, we will end up fighting a world wide nuclear war with NATO to keep our country from being overrun by the barbarians.”

    “This country nearly descended into civil war last week,” Vice President Vladimir Ivashko countered, “increased military action from NATO hardly seems unusual considering the circumstances.”

    Zhirinovsky dismissively waved his hand at Ivashko while reminding everyone that he was somehow keenly aware of the unique threat faced by the Turks because he was born in the Kazakh Republic and he once studied in Turkey for a few months as a youth. I wanted to remind him that his negative experience by being unceremoniously thrown out of the country might be clouding his vision, but I bit my tongue.

    “So how do you propose we stop them,” Yuri Luzhkov said sarcastically.

    “There is one thing that stands in their way, one thing that prevents them from achieving their dream of Turkish domination. A finger in the dam, if you will. A finger that holds back this Turkish onslaught. It is all that protects us from the coming flood of Islamic domination.”

    “And what might that be,” Luzhkov retorted.

    “Armenia.”

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/zhirinovskys-russian-empire.245924/page-4#post-6335023

  133. Avery says:
    @Ano4

    A laundry list of Azerbaijan anti-Christian Muslim Turk talking points, propaganda, and disinformation.

    No need to debunk all of your false assertions, but a couple will do….

    ‘7) Armenian cooperation with NATO’
    FALSE.
    fyi: Russia cooperated with NATO up until 2014, when NATO ended it.

    ‘8) Armenian support to Georgia during the 2008 war’

    FALSE.

    btw: you are posing as a Slav, which I don’t think you are.
    You are a Muslim (perhaps a Chechen) or Muslim Turk.
    But in case you are a Slav, chew on this:

    A couple of months after Turks shot down a Russian Su-24 and killed and murdered Russian (Slav) pilots. the nut Lukashenko (Slav) flew to Turkey to have a cheek-to-cheek tango with Erdogan, who had ordered the shootdown of the Russian jet.

    Would you like to next discuss how Slav Ukrainians murdered Russian (Slav) civilians in Ukraine? How Slav Ukrainians sold their country to GloboSorosistas and are planning to join NATO?

    • Agree: Jazman
    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Ano4
  134. @Swarthy Greek

    Serbo-croat is also pretty much mutually intelligible with Bulgarian despite both languages being separate.

    It is certainly not “pretty much” mutually intelligible. It’s just that some words and phrases are the same or similar enough such that, listening to rapid-fire speech, people might get the gist of what is being said, but it’s an enormous stretch to claim they really understand it.

  135. @Avery

    Ano4 now is not only Polish and Vietnamese but also Chechen. Can’t wait to see the next ethnicity he is going to acquire. Eskimo?

    • Replies: @Ano4
  136. @CM

    Azerbaijan is the least formally religious of the South Caucasus states, but it’s still the most socially conservative and backwards. They still have forced marriages, beheadings and other customs we associate with the worst of the Muslim world.

    Like Turkey, they think modernity is dying their hair blonde and wearing miniskirts. They don’t actually have the IQ to be modern and make progress. My dad and some colleagues went to Baku and the consensus was the people there were very stupid.

    A bit anecdotally.

    In Lower Secondary school I once had an Azeri classmate whose mother was a doctor.

    While he wasn’t the stupidest classmate I had at the time academically speaking (that honour goes to a nice but thick-as-a-brick Kosovo Albanian) he was the type to give out “let’s kill all Kurds” as a class contribution (also in another incident “Atheists should be murdered”).

    Though he was stupid enough to get circumcised as at an age he could remember (or his parents forced him).

    • Replies: @Ano4
  137. Ano4 says:
    @Avery

    Хачи, я клал с прибором на ваши разборки с Азерами.

    You had your color revolution in 2018. You had manifestations at the time asking to remove Russian troops from Gumri and accusing Russia of imperialism.

    Now ask Emmanuel Macron and Kim Kardashian to protect your sore asses from the Turks.

  138. I did a fair bit of wrestling (Shuai jiao to be precise, which is kind of like Sino-Mongolian Judo). Met some dudes from Karabagh, one of our (German) guys made third place, the Karabagh dude was second place and some Russian first place. Karabagh dude (who was competing as Armenian) promplty ran up waving a big Karabagh flag.

    All agreed that the Russian dude, who beat an Azeri dude in the half final and thus resulted in no Azeri being on the podium (their delegation was pissed and thus left before the victory ceremony) basically prevented a big fight from breaking out. Our guy who made third place was not interested in anything other then a) sport b)drinks and c)girls, and didnt get what the fuss was about. He did beat the Azeri guy in the scrim for place 3 (even he found it unusual that the Russians in attendance were cheering the German).

    I did manage to silence him with an elbow to the ribs before he could finish the (perhaps final) sentence “whats the big deal, arent you all from Georgmenistan?”.

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Mightypeon
  139. @Europe Europa

    The general consensus among linguists is the latter is more comparable to the distance between British and American English.

    Imo, it’s even smaller than the difference between American and British English. While most of the difference lies in vocabulary – of the telephone box/booth, chips/crisps, cookies/biscuits kind in English varieties – British and American differences arose ‘organically,’ whereas much of the Serb/Croat differences resulted from Croats deliberately substituting new terminology (supposedly reviving authentic Croatian terms) for no other reason than to differentiate their language from Serbian. Also, I think someone with even minimal exposure to English could distinguish between an American and a British accent, but one would have to listen hard and for a long time to reliably distinguish a Croatian accent from a Serbian one.

  140. @Mikhail

    Prior to the Yugo breakup, an Albanian nationalist teacher I had said that he spoke Serbo-Croatian.

    There is still a Serbo-Croatian wikipedia, which has more articles than the Croatian wikipedia. (And iirc, the last time I checked, perhaps two or three years ago, it also had more than the Serbian wikipedia – though this is no longer the case.)

  141. Ano4 says:
    @Hyperborean

    In Lower Secondary school I once had an Azeri classmate whose mother was a doctor

    In my class were two boys: one Armenian named Edik and one Azeri named Muslim (no kidding). Their parents were the typical ethnic minority (нацмен) Communist Parti bureaucrats who managed to socially climb to Moscow elite apartments and Nomenklatura only stores(спец распределитель). Both kids were thicker than a brick and were also good friends, while being despised by their other classmates. There was also an Armenian girl named Karina who was way more intelligent and actually very attractive. If it was not for her, I would have grown up having the impression that Armenians and Azeris are both absolutely despicable. But she was kinda nice…

    🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  142. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I didn’t ask for identifying details. I asked you specifically if you spoke either Russian or Ukrainian, and if you had ever been to either Russia or Ukraine.

    You refused to answer.

    I’ll answer the questions I asked of you.

    I speak both Russian (not as a native, but well enough to get around with no English; I get mistaken for a Baltic, Czech or Polish tourist) and Ukrainian, and have been to both countries numerous times.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  143. Ano4 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    but also Chechen

    Daniel, you have probably missed the part when some commenters here got all worked up against me when I wrote about Kadyrov being unworthy of the Hero of Russia title because he had killed Russians (possibly civilians) and bragged about that.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  144. @Ano4

    No, I actually read your link in Russian too and later reposted it elsewhere. The idea of you being Chechen is, let’s say, pretty silly.

  145. AP says:
    @Ano4

    One of my Russian in-laws, since retired, taught at an institute in which Armenians had squeezed out many of the ethnic Russians while ruining it and turning it into a bribery farm, back in the mid 2000s. She told me about one her brightest students, an ethnic Russian girl of modest background. The girl was in tears because she got a mediocre grade on some exam (administered not by professors but someone unaccountable, the result of some “reform”) while an Armenian classmate, dumb and lazy, got the top mark clearly due to bribes. He was overheard consoling her by telling her not to feel bad, he knew that she was smart, and he would hire her for the clinic his family was buying for him. Whose country is this, my in-law asked.

    My in-law really hates Armenians.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @Yevardian
  146. Ano4 says:
    @AP

    Exactly. And they feel they are right doing it everywhere they are. Look at Ukraine, with Avakov acting in his and his circle best interests as if Ukraine was his property. Look at LA in US being Armenized, look at the power of Armenian diaspora in France. They are very similar to Jews in that regard.

    And they are basically turncoats, they already started decrying Russian imperialism (while if it was not for Russian Tzar their country wouldn’t even exist) and trying to suck up to NATO and the West.

    Let them ask the West to protect their asses from the Islamics. Let’s see how it works. Same thing for the Georgians. Let’s see how they fend against the renewed assertiveness of the Turks. Will be fun to watch.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Armanen
  147. Jazman says:
    @Avery

    This is truth and very good historical knowledge . Yesterday I had some dispute vs Azerbaijan guy on CNN , discussion was over when I told him he can be Iranian or Turk background there is no Azeri . Plus I told him about name Azerbaijan was choosen from Iranian province

  148. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You lie again by omitting what you said on multiple occasions – falsely stating I was never there. Your linguistic bravado red herring doesn’t cover for your limited knowledge of a number of issues you comment on.

    • Replies: @AP
  149. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Ano4

    Lavrov is part Armenian. I’ve no problem with his effectiveness. On the other hand, Armenian-American academic Ronald Suny falls more in line with your take. I view things on an individual basis having had experiences with faulty folks among my ethnology-religious backgrounds and more agreeable ones within groupings generally frowned on within certain circles.

    I couldn’t stomach watching this discussion upon seeing how it was stacked:

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/unrest-belarus-and-russia%E2%80%99s-response-169560

    Perhaps I’m jumping the gun. Let me know if I did.

    In that scenario, is Migranyan better than Sleboda, MacDonald and some others? Likewise, there’ve been issues with RT. Once again, I don’t see these situations as a specifically Armenian issue.

  150. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    You wrote “I’ve been to that part of the world.”

    So have you been to Russia specifically? Ukraine, specifically?

    Do you speak Russian? Ukrainian?

    Simple questions you refuse to answer directly. I have answered them.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  151. Armanen says:
    @Ano4

    You take random personal examples and stories from friends and apply it to the whole nation of Armenians. Should I now assume all Russian/Ukrainian females are whores because it has been quite easy for me and friends of mine to have sexual relations with them?

    There are crappy people in all ethnic groups, some more than others perhaps. But your Armenophobia is shortsighted and speaks of some other psychological problem.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Ano4
  152. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You disingenuous twit of a troll. You in matter of fact terms said I haven’t been to Russia and Ukraine which is a flat out lie. I added that a troll like yourself should be more revealing about himself, suggesting that it’s quite hokey of you to ask that I provide specifics about myself.

    Once again, you lied unlike yours truly. Your comments served as a diversionary red herring in the form of not successfully refuting what I said – comments that you apparently don’t like.

    • Replies: @AP
  153. @Armanen

    The more you write, the less charming you are.

  154. @another anon

    LOL, AK posted my hot take of the day on his twitter, and people are mad, mad, mad. Many clicks and many likes incoming, mission accomplished.
    But no matter how mad you are, it is a fact that the only winners in wars are people who get out before the shooting starts.
    Remember, anonymous internet shitposters always mean every word they say, and are always right.
    Deal with it.

    https://www.quora.com/How-many-of-the-Trump-family-has-served-in-the-US-Armed-Forces

    How many of the Trump family has served in the US Armed Forces?

    None, nada, zero……In fact, the Trump men have had a reputation for avoiding military service.

    Friedrich Trump- Is Donald Trump’s grandfather. When he realized he was close to the age of compulsory military service in the Bavarian army, he emigrated to the United States. After making his money off of the gold miners headed to the Yukon, he returned to Germany to get married. When authorities found that he had emigrated when young to avoid fulfilling his military service, he lost his Bavarian citizenship; he and his family returned to the United States.

    Frederick Christ Trump Sr. – Is Donald Trump’s father. Trump was investigated by a U.S. Senate committee for wartime profiteering (1954), and by the U.S. Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division for civil rights violations (1973). Trump’s reputation as a landlord inspired a critical song by tenant and folk singer Woody Guthrie. For decades after World War II Trump told friends and family that his family was of Swedish origin, to avoid confrontation with the largely Jewish tenant population living in his rental properties. He had three sons; Frederick Christ Trump Jr. , Donald Trump, and Robert Trump , none of which served in the military. Donald is famous for taking multiple deferments, because of bone spurs.

  155. @Mightypeon

    We had some cultural stuff beforehand, which, this being in Rostov na Donu was kind of cosssak themed. As such, it included drinking a shot of Vodka from a sabre. Our german later third place became a fan favorite by being “why is this only a shot? This is Russia, gimme Sto Gramm poschalusta”, getting sto gramm (surprisingly many germans know what this means) and proceeding to drink it from the sabre in one gulp without spilling any.

    That one Azeri dude refused on accout of being a dick/ pious Muslim. This probably explained the shouts of “Fritz Fritz Fritz” from the Russian team/audience when he fought the Azeri much more then Geopolitics.

  156. Wielgus says:
    @Europe Europa

    Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. I understand some Karelians live in Finland.
    Anyway my point is, the Gaelic-speaking area in Scotland was once far more extensive than it is now.

  157. Wielgus says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Not much difference – as far as I am concerned and I said it elsewhere, it is all Serbo-Croat to me. However it was in the Latin alphabet so it might as well have been in Croatian. I associate Serbian with the Cyrillic version of the language.

  158. Yevardian says:
    @AP

    Rather rich to complain about nepotism and bribery coming from a Ukrainian, inheriting the most developed region of the whole USSR and look what you did with it.

    • Replies: @AP
  159. Ano4 says:
    @Armanen

    Armenophobia

    Phobia is defined as an irrational fear. I am not being irrational: I demonstrate that Armenians do not belong in Russia and that Russian interests are better served by staying out of this conflict.

    Regarding Russian women being whores, Slavic women are less prudish than the women of the Caucasus mountains. They are open and welcoming and I like them that way. For me a woman is a whore only if you pay her for sex. I also consider that only a loser would pay for something you could have for free just by being a nice and sexy kind of guy. Did you pay these women for sex?

    Also, speaking of whoredom, what should we make of Kim Kardashian who has the whole internet filled with her sexy pics and kinda launched her career by sharing a homemade porn video of anal sex with one of her negro boyfriends?

    You understand that when people think of Armenians in the West, Kardashian is what comes first to their minds?

    🙂

  160. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Lol once again you can’t directly answer simple questions that I did:

    Do you speak Russian?

    Do you speak Ukrainian?

    Have you been to Russia?

    Have you been to Ukraine?

    You made comments about the two languages so it would be relevant to know if you actually speak either of them.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  161. AP says:
    @Yevardian

    This is a very silly myth. Ukraine was the poorest of the three Slavic republics in terms of GDP per capita, and of course behind the Baltic republics.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU-BY-EE

    As an aside, although “objectively” Armenia is owed sympathy in this conflict (beleaguered Christians surrounded by Muslims, horrible history of being genocided) many Armenians I have come across have been unpleasant or provocative, whereas every Azeri I have met has been very nice and personable. Azeris in Baku seem to be of higher quality than the ones in Moscow.

  162. Ano4 says:

    The Great (mustached) Sage of the Caucasus Mountains tells us all about how it all started. The man being born in Georgia of the Alan stock knew what he talked about!

    [MORE]

    «Армения, измученная и многострадальная, отданная милостью Антанты и дашнаков на голод, разорение и беженство, – эта обманутая всеми “друзьями” Армения ныне обрела свое избавление в том, что объявила себя советской страной.
    Ни лживые заверения Англии, “вековой защитницы” армянских интересов; ни пресловутые четырнадцать пунктов Вильсона; ни широковещательные обещания Лиги наций с ее “мандатом” на управление Арменией – не смогли (и не могли!) спасти Армению от резни и физического истребления. Только идея Советской власти принесла Армении мир и возможность национального обновления.
    Вот некоторые факты, приведшие к советизации Армении. Губительная политика дашнаков, агентов Антанты, приводит страну к анархии и нищете. Война с Турцией, затеянная дашнаками, доводит тяжелое положение Армении до последней крайности. Измученные голодом и бесправием северные провинции Армении восстают в конце ноября и создают революционный военный комитет Армении во главе с тов. Касьяном. 30 ноября получается от предревкома Армении на имя тов. Ленина приветственная телеграмма с сообщением о рождении Советской Армении и занятии ревкомом города Делижана. 1 декабря Советский Азербайджан добровольно отказывается от спорных провинций и декларирует передачу Советской Армении Зангезура, Нахичевани, Нагорного Карабаха. 1 декабря ревком получает приветствие от турецкого командования. 2 декабря получается сообщение тов. Орджоникидзе о том, что дашнакское правительство в Эривани изгнано и войска Армении отдают себя в распоряжение ревкома.
    Ныне столица Армении, Эривань, в руках Советской власти Армении.
    ВЕКОВАЯ ВРАЖДА МЕЖДУ АРМЕНИЕЙ И ОКРУЖАЮЩИМИ ЕЕ МУСУЛЬМАНАМИ РЕШИЛАСЬ ОДНИМ УДАРОМ, ПУТЕМ УСТАНОВЛЕНИЯ БРАТСКОЙ СОЛИДАРНОСТИ МЕЖДУ ТРУДЯЩИМИСЯ АРМЕНИИ, ТУРЦИИ, АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА.
    Пусть знают все, кому ведать надлежит, что так называемую армянскую “проблему”, над которой тщетно ломали голову старые волки империалистической дипломатии, оказалась в силах разрешить только Советская власть».

    * * *

    «Фактор, тормозящий объединение республик в один союз, – это национализм в отдельных республиках… нэп и связанный с ним частный капитал питают, взращивают национализм грузинский, азербайджанский, узбекский и пр… Если бы этот национализм был только оборонительный, можно было бы еще не поднимать из-за него шума… Азербайджан. Основная национальность – азербайджанская, но там есть и армяне. Среди одной части азербайджанцев тоже имеется такая тенденция, иногда очень неприкрытая, насчет того, что мы, дескать, азербайджанцы, – коренные, а они, армяне, – пришельцы, нельзя ли их по этому случаю немного отодвинуть назад, не считаться с их интересами. Это – тоже шовинизм. Это подрывает то равенство национальностей, на основе которого строится Советская власть… Закавказье с ранних времен представляло арену резни и склоки, а потом, при меньшевизме и дашнаках, – арену войн. Вы знаете грузино-армянскую войну. Резня в начале и в конце 1905 года в Азербайджане вам тоже известна. Я могу назвать целый ряд районов, где большинство армян всю остальную часть населения, состоящую из татар, вырезали, – например, Зангезур. Могу указать на другую провинцию – Нахичевань. Там татары преобладали, и они вырезали всех армян. Это было как раз перед освобождением Армении и Грузии от ига империализма. (Голос с места: “По-своему разрешили национальный вопрос”.) Это тоже, конечно, известная форма разрешения национального вопроса. Но это – не советская форма разрешения. В этой обстановке взаимной национальной вражды русские рабочие, конечно, не при чем, ибо борются татары и армяне, без русских. Вот почему необходим в Закавказье специальный орган, который мог бы регулировать взаимоотношения между национальностями».

    И.В. СТАЛИН

  163. @AP

    Ukraine was richer than Belarus by quite a bit.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=UA-RU-BY-EE

    But the Ukrainian numbers on World Bank are a bit off and inconsistent since the recent revisions.

    • Replies: @AP
  164. AP says:
    @Shortsword

    I posted nominal, you posted PPP. Ukraine was a lot cheaper than Belarus so although it was slightly poorer, the money went further and quality of life was higher.

  165. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    LOL, as the lying twit in you pops up again. You’re the anonymous crank who repeatedly lied about my never having been to Russia which is false. Once again, it’s pretty rich for an anonymous crank like yourself to ask for further info about me. I offered to do so on the condition that you do likewise regarding yourself.

    My comments on languages weren’t false. You didn’t offer any substantive rebuttal proving otherwise.

    • Replies: @AP
  166. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I asked for no personal identifying information. I asked if you have been to Russia or Ukraine, and most importantly if you speak either Ukrainian or Russian, languages you chose to discuss.

    So directly state if you have been to Russia. You imply that you have. What about Ukraine. No?

    You avoid answering if you speak Russian or Ukrainian.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  167. @AP

    It seems that people’s experiences with Caucasoids are highly variable. My interactions with Armenians have generally been good, with Georgians very bad (including a relative who experienced your relative’s experience with academic nepotism but with a Georgian mafia in place of the Armenian one), and with Azeris none really that I can recall. So there’s probably some bias in my Armenians > Azeris > Georgians ranking.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    , @AP
  168. Ano4 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    For me they are all more or less equal. Of course there are nice people among them, but they are not really compatible with Slavs and should be separated from Russians. I believe in letting DICh go, evacuating Russian minorities from the Caucasus and expelling the Caucasus ethnic groups from Russia proper.

    No more feeding the Caucasus republics, no more entanglement in their affairs, complete disengagement. I think Krylov was absolutely right about Russian politics in the Caucasus being “a strange model”. Enough of it. The days of the Empire are long gone, the Union is defunct, long live Russian National State.

  169. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    There are good and bad amongst all peoples. I’ve known a couple of nice Armenians but as is often the case, their reputation reflects the general reality. For whatever reason every Azeri I’ve known has been pleasant.

    I only knew one Georgian, a classmate in the early 90s at an American university. He said his father was a minister in the Georgian government. He was famous for shoplifting everywhere, once managing to pilfer 4 pairs of shoes from a department store on one trip, and never got caught. Also stole from his classmates (cash, cds,anything), I never let him in my dorm room. Lots of craziness, but he was outgoing and friendly. I never kept in touch, but looked him up and he is now some big shot at a pharmaceutical company. He was representative of “new Russians,” kids of post-Soviets who came into elite status as the USSR collapsed or after. There were also kids of Soviet-era elites who were civilized, did not engage in criminal hijinks, and who despised the new Russians. The two groups did not mix much at this university.

  170. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You lied when saying that I haven’t been to Russia. The particular troll comment of yours didn’t successfully refute my comments. On the subjects I comment on, you reveal yourself to be less informed. Hence, your trolling lie red herring manner.

    • Replies: @AP
  171. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Still avoiding the question about whether you even speak the Russian or Ukrainian languages that you discussed.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  172. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You’re a clear cut liar and can’t get out of that reality.

  173. This thread, as usual, ends in big yawn. Because if there is something more boring than Russo-Ukrainian or Balkan issues, Caucasian issues would win the prize.

    And AK’s twitter followers are also disappointing. Some guy in Anatoly’s twitter feed cried that having second passport is something only for “oligarchs”.
    This normie take was true sixty years ago, when dual citizenship was big no-no and only Rockefeller tier big players and James Bond tier spooks could boast multiple passports.
    Not anymore.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship

    At the 1930 League of Nations Codification Conference, an attempt was made to codify nationality rules into a universal worldwide treaty, the 1930 Hague Convention, whose chief aims would be to completely abolish both statelessness and dual citizenship. The 1930 Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Laws proposed laws that would have reduced both, but in the end, was ratified by only twenty nations.[3]

    However, the consensus against dual nationality began to erode due to changes in social mores and attitudes. By the late 20th century it was becoming gradually accepted again.[3] Many states were lifting restrictions on dual citizenship. For example, the British Nationality Act 1948 removed restrictions on dual citizenship in the United Kingdom, the 1967 Afroyim v. Rusk ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court prohibited the U.S. government from involuntarily stripping citizenship from Americans over dual citizenship, and the Canadian Citizenship Act, 1976, removed restrictions on dual citizenship in Canada. The number of states allowing multiple citizenships further increased after a treaty in Europe requiring signatories to limit dual citizenship lapsed in the 1990s, and countries with high emigration rates began permitting it to maintain links with their respective diasporas.[6]

    TL;DR: If you are American, give big thanks to Mr. Beys Afroyim. He is the hero who made you free.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroyim_v._Rusk

    By now, second passports are something available for everyone (unless you are dirt poor and severely inbred redneck whose family never left your small village in the last 300 years).

    Even Normie Times noticed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/20/style/golden-visa-second-passport-dual-citizenship.html

    The New American Status Symbol? A Second Passport
    Many U.S. citizens whose families immigrated from Europe are eligible, and the pandemic has caused an uptick in applications.

    When Normie Times call something “status symbol”, it is not anymore symbol of the elite, but another consumption item for upper middle and middle class. This is one of scientific laws of journalism.

    Do not believe NYT? Check this chart from one of many “global citizen” sites on the internets.

    https://www.sovereignman.com/lifestyle-design/four-valuable-passports-that-anyone-can-obtain-6109

    If you are European American of recent immigrant descent, chance is you are already eligible for EU passport. If not, there are countries where you can get citizenship after few years.
    If you have no ancestry ties, do not want to move and wait and insist on paying straight away, cheapest second passports are about $100k.
    Many Americans spend more on guns and survival gear.
    Of course, if serious shit ever hits the fan, house full of guns and ammo will get you killed quickly (if you are lucky), while passport in your pocket will save your life.

    Do not believe some web site? Ask our esteemed host Anatoly himself.
    He is well off due to his Bitcoin investment, but definitely far below oligarch tier. Still, he have British and Russian passports and American green card.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Russian_citizens

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens

    He is free like bird, he flies anywhere he wants and laughs at the lines drawn on map and poor peasants stuck in them like flies in spider webs. The world is his oyster, the future belongs to people like him. 🙂

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