We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.

I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn’t stick.

Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

Cue AaronB telling us Jews and ‘elite whites’ don’t suffer from materialism.

Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

Don’t forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.

How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate ‘normative’ European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise signatories/Guardians’ objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. Ominous.

Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.

Some of these people are rather funny:

Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a “soulful bum”.

In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.

[Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.

One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.

How is text of neoliberalism.

Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

Vargas Llosa is that writer who once condemned the American invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but then he became enamored of it, because being anti-war was a “fascist” thing and went on to enthusiastically defend the American occupation of Baghdad after an Intourist-style tour organized by the US military. This writer no longer deserves any respect after that.

It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

–

These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin’s articles.

Bernard Henri-Lévy
Elfriede Jelinek
Anne Applebaum
David Grossman
György Konrád
Adam Michnik
Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
Roberto Saviano
Simon Schama

9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

Well, if an Indian like Salman Rushdie can get behind the idea of the EU – actually WTF! That’s pretty messed up. He should return to India and campaign for a united India.

But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it – but not jews.

9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

I haven’t gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.

I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

(patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?

It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

[…]

These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

But I reject AaronB’s demoralising propaganda-conjection.

And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l’horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary ‘centrist’ parties.

Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don’t know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.

Ágnes Heller, too.

Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d’interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.

Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

Literally an open admission that these reptiles are soulless, rootless cosmopolitans.
Worthless scum.

The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.

The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the “Fujishock” economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

I haven’t read books from any of authors’ writings either, which is why I wasn’t sure. I don’t have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

I’ve even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.

–

Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

Antonio Lobo Antunes: Let me be very clear. For me geography does not exist! I strongly object to the whole concept of “foreign literature”…and speaking of national identity: that is how dictatorships get started!

[…]

Where does one find good literature today? Mostly in third world countries, because adversity, isolation, combat provide good working conditions. It is harder to be a good writer in a so-called “civilized” country, in the so-called “democracies.”

[…]

Rail: You must be aware that you are considered a difficult author. If one opens a page of this last “novel,” the typographic arrangement, the rhythm, the music of the text seem very close to poetry. The switching among narrative voices, the slipping between first and third person, the associative collages, the dilating and contracting of time, all contribute to the richness of the text. A critic has called your style “barely legible.” Does this disturb you?

https://brooklynrail.org/2008/11/books/geography-it-doesnt-exist-antonio-lobo-antunes-with-alessandro-cassin

Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their “secular humanism”.

will the yentas ever learn?

I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany’s president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt

“A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world.”

Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There’s also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn’t matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our “values”).
There’s also the European dimension of course…I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves “European patriots”, it’s supposed to mean “patriots of Europe” (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

I guess Erasmus counts

They probably just referenced him because of the EU’s Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
I’ve never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

I ‘m thinking specifically of Langston Hughes – gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don’t write much and aren’t often celebrated for their gayness.

Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

“I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

It’s 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
Neutral’s Nazi-like views that “the international Jew” is behind everything aren’t convincing imo, but I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on “the lessons of Auschwitz” (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to “the Bosnian genocide” or whatever).
Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn’t be surprising though that it’s likely to increase resentment of Jews.

Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

I don’t think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

It’s more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

And checking on Wikipedia – even their composition 1/3 Jewish.

Soviet marranos, holy shit…why am I surprised, though?

but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe

I think he’s mostly known for speaking out against Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
Haven’t read him either though (and don’t intend to), can’t comment on his literary merits.

1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

Shocking…

Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don’t get hurt.

If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You’d be surrounded by your own people and wouldn’t have to feel lonely. You’re free to leave any time.

If one were to design a person who’d be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it’d be a replica of Simon Schama.

If you didn’t make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

I was thinking that was why they included Goethe – his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There’s a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.

If Jews weren’t 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn’t complain about them and their political views so much.

By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there’s no incentive to change among members of said minority).

…Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

Really? I don’t think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms – a ‘cosmopolitan’ plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that’s just the way they are.

Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: ‘and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin…‘. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person – he literally just follows the food.

1. They’re not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

aren’t convincing

It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

Why?

It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you’d still be pretending it is all about the Jews.

Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.

I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

Kundera’s the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera’s books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

For example, Kundera’s famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I’m not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded “bigotry” (repellent to every moral person) and we’re all individuals anyway.
I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through ‘worst crisis since the 30’s‘ is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30’s!!!), their vocabulary – none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don’t have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn’t work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won’t fix that.

Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems – as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,

No, it doesn’t.

Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn’t insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you’ll find no examples.

You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of “Jews getting the best jobs” due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment…also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

Agree.

Especially with:

Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.

The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.

This is a sign of panic.

The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems

They’d say they’re only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful

You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. ‘Anti-racist’ and ‘anti-fascist’ groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can’t ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

It’s a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

I may have mentioned it before – I know it is tenuous – but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.

You’re confusing “Best job” as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the “most moral”. Very few times do people refer to “best job” as the “most moral”, normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

This means my point was true.

but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

I’ve never done that. Indeed, I’ve often done the opposite.

Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don’t think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes – people project on him.

I can’t control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don’t see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

I’m not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

It’s acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of “dog whistle” in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world’s most famous writers in a public statement.

Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.

I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised

‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’.

It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn’t make him British.

Sure, it’s ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU’s self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

What apologetics? Where?

…only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people

Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate – at this point – Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

‘brazen meddling by Kremlin‘ is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.

Milan Kundera ‘was an informant to Czech secret police’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6399364/Milan-Kundera-was-an-informant-to-Czech-secret-police.html

More than a scapegoat – they need an enemy.

I really like the part about:

…EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice

We see the famous ‘mistakes were made‘ passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on ‘cowardice‘. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war…

Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

My comment:

Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

Your comment (responding):

1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

Shocking…

Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

> socialistic newspaper the Guardian

More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

> with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

Calling Hayek and Friedman “neoliberal” is quite wrong.

Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to “intervene” in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today “traditional liberals”: People not into state economic control but not averse to “social” state intervention either:

https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals

The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an “ecumenical” undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

….

The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence … Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into “different groups and clans.” He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about “the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )” who were sometimes called the “old conservatives.” The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

…

During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek’s side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises’s eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.

Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest’s second law (“Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing”) but perfectly illustrates the third (“The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies”).

“I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.”
It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse

Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand — that is to say, co-opt — nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’

No, I didn’t. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.

Why do you enjoy pretending that I’m not British?

I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals. That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

Which of my two points was wrong?

Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it’s distinguished from “bad” nationalism, it doesn’t have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate (“let’s not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!”).

I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera’s popularity in the West (I don’t know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis’ review of Don Quixote

And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.

Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist – love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There’s no need for love of country to support a nation state.

That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

You cannot deny, it is surprising to see “doggy whistle” allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals

This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn’s paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you’d view British nationalism through the lens of ‘what’s good with the Jews’.

The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy’s name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy’s mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin’s Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I’ll come to his tirade in a moment, but let’s first have a look at Houellebecq’s warm feelings for Moscow.

A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.

probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

Who is this “our side” of which you speak kemo sabe?

It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.

Oh yes…..

People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.

Yep.

I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

Yep.
Two of us have “talked” about this a lot here. Don’t know about you but, at my age, I’d definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
“Cheerful” thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO…….30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
M.A.D.

In a related article, the Guardian helpfully informs us that (my bold):

The 800-word paean was drafted by the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals

paean: A song of praise or thanksgiving; a shout or song of triumph, joy, or exultation. Also fig.: an expression of praise or admiration; a tribute (to something). [OED]

With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

I don’t know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.

Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy’s reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet …

Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.

The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I’m just not a monomaniac like you.

0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

Also, your threat was clear.

Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.

Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.

It’s probably just part of his milieu, those “new philosophers” are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

False dichotomy for one.

Why would Europe “be destroyed”. How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US “recommendations” regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled “La Grande Peur des Bienpensants” (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

It’s time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

I found this for people who are into french:

https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
Doesn’t look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they’re embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.

I only read Kundera’s “The Joke” back in the Cold War. Can’t remember much but I don’t think there was sex.

However, BHL’s early work “Le Diable en Tête” fits your description well. I don’t really remember much, but it was like Portnoy’s Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.

Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.

the wreckers will destroy it

The wreckers will wreck…literary dreck.

. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,

Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

We’ll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

I also liked Kafka back then, too.

On one level, they have to be intelligent – to construct the coherent work of literature.

Of course, your point is true – talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They’re only doing this, because they’re slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
And personally I have little sympathy for Iran’s theocratic system, but that doesn’t mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that’s what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

“Stalin-Hitler combo” really makes me laugh.

It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn’t quite cross it.

Interesting.

Aren’t we talking about allowing a conference?

A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

I’m happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland’s adopted black sons.

Here’s another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

They’re bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

Should they ban criticism of Iran?

0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

These are my comments which, in your opinion, are ‘going bezerk’

Bernard Henri-Lévy
Elfriede Jelinek
Anne Applebaum
David Grossman
György Konrád
Adam Michnik
Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
Roberto Saviano
Simon Schama

9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

Also, your threat was clear.

Where? What is my alleged threat?

Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don’t really understand your point.

I’m mildly surprised that Salman Rushdie signed up for this, given that he was chased out of his adopted home country by migrants. It seems difficult memories fade.

Kundera made his career from being oppressed by Soviet migrants. But that was a long time ago and in a different country. Still in the EU, though.

Orhan Pamuk writes from a core piece of Europe forcibly occupied by migrants since 1453. Perhaps they should give it back.

All in all, not a good showing by the literati.

I don’t give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who’s of sound mind should.
Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
And for the record, I’m not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it’s possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it’s hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today’s antiracism. And it’s not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

It isn’t harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

Where? What is my alleged threat?

I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

On the other hand, “systemic” racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway

Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from “public intellectuals”. That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those – confirmation bias sucks.

Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?

they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.

Should they ban criticism of Iran?

Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
There’s a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with “old” and “new Europe” during the Iraq war.

I’ve never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I’ll assume your motivations are malicious.

You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you’re advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.

That’s idiotic.
You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

You’ve made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.

Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

Lol, what does ‘stealing’ your nationality even mean?

It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn’t how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn’t part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn’t think were false.

Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those

Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

“We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught”

what is this nonsensical sentence.

i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that’s really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

“Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it”. that’s impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is “That’s not who we are”. still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn’t devised by leftists.

I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.

Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you

You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

It is one the same level as Soros’ attitude towards China.

Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.

China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.

https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?

Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?

What’s the difference?

Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?

The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don’t want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

The string ‘Tyrion 2’ pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

Nietzsche spoke of the “gravediggers burying God” in The Gay Science. Today, we’ve become the “gravediggers of the European idea” instead. Is this conscious or unconscious self-parody? Are all these educated signatories aware that they’ve put “the European idea” in place of God?

Nietzsche spoke of the "gravediggers burying God" in The Gay Science. Today, we've become the "gravediggers of the European idea" instead. Is this conscious or unconscious self-parody? Are all these educated signatories aware that they've put "the European idea" in place of God? https://t.co/ttQw4HkW3q

— Yoram Hazony (@yhazony) January 28, 2019

Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don’t know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who ‘defected’ from Nashi.

Hasbarafl ftw?

Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

I rarely saw Swedish flags – I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

Lol “Putinjugend”. Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

The “Nashi” summer camp, looked fun in a weird way – they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

She had bags of money – presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
The weird thing – the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.

want the occupiers to leave Palestine

Please don’t. Let’s keep them in their designated places. The world won’t survive another diaspora.

Won’t survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?

As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the signatories appear to be
urban intellectuals, i.e., people who spend a disproportionate amount
of time sitting in warm well-lit rooms staring at screens, writing, and
talking. Is this something we’re supposed to admire? The highest ideal
to aspire to?

Consider these three great individuals: the Buddha, Socrates, and Jesus.
None of them wrote books, none of them were rich (Buddha was born into
wealth but rejected it), and none of them were famous (except locally)
or sought fame during their lifetimes. Many people try to follow in the
footsteps of the Buddha and/or Jesus. Hence they will sympathize with
Thomas Aquinas, the founder of rational theology who married Christianity
to Aristotle, who in 1273, after undergoing profound mystical experiences,
said, “It’s all straw” (referring to his writings). Or with Terence McKenna,
the American psychonaut who said “Culture is not your friend” or “Television
is by nature the dominator drug par excellence” (not that I agree with him on
everything).

Perhaps countries such as China or India that are still trying to make
the leap from the pre-modern to modern stage need more intellectuals
but the West is now resolutely in the postmodern stage (Cf. Lyotard’s 1979
definition, “I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives),
effectively marking the end of the Enlightenment Project and its
universalistic claims. One thing the West doesn’t need is more
intellectuals – the latter serve the interests of the materialistic
ruling class (with their “Let them eat cake” attitude) anyway, not
realizing that the people are increasingly disillusioned with science,
technology, and modernity in general. Return to Europe’s pagan roots
(albeit on a more sophisticated level where the gods and goddesses are
interpreted as Jungian archetypes), and to localisms and regionalisms
are some aspects of the growing populist rejection of the globalist
elites. The intellect has failed us, and hence what we need more of is growth
in awareness and in emotional intelligence. As always, following Aristotle and
the Buddha (The Middle Way), everything in moderation – we need not
reject the intellect completely but there is certainly no reason to worship it.

Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
to the United States? I doubt it.

Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.

I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then

The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

??????? You said that Jews were ‘massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia’, who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

I’ll simplify this for you.

Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn’t happen.

With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

Sadly, I don’t think you’ll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You’re the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ….

Glad I don’t see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, …

Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?