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Ooh, scary.

, , , , and 25 others

Other signatories: Vassilis Alexakis (Athens), Svetlana Alexievich (Minsk), Anne Applebaum (Warsaw), Jens Christian Grøndahl (Copenhagen), David Grossman (Jerusalem), Ágnes Heller (Budapest), Ismaïl Kadaré (Tirana), György Konrád (Debrecen), António Lobo Antunes (Lisbon), Claudio Magris (Trieste), Ian McEwan (London), Adam Michnik (Warsaw), Herta Müller (Berlin), Ludmila Oulitskaïa (Moscow), Rob Riemen (Amsterdam), Fernando Savater (San Sebastián), Roberto Saviano (Naples), Eugenio Scalfari (Rome), Simon Schama (London), Peter Schneider (Berlin), Abdulah Sidran (Sarajevo), Leïla Slimani (Paris), Colm Tóibín (Dublin), Mario Vargas Llosa (Madrid), Adam Zagajewski (Cracow)

dis gon b gud

Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

“Wrecking” was the term used under Stalinism to designate scapegoats for the failure of projects that were unrealistic to begin with.

One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich, a talentless novelist who used to write glowing odes to Soviet secret police founder Felix Dzerzhinsky before bashing Russia became more handshakeworthy.

“Enough of ‘building Europe’!” is the cry. Let’s reconnect instead with our “national soul”! Let’s rediscover our “lost identity”! This is the agenda shared by the populist forces washing over the continent. Never mind that abstractions such as “soul” and “identity” often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

Just to clarify what these people mean by identity: “BHL” is the guy who feels closer to an Afghan than a French FN voter.

The continent is vulnerable to the increasingly brazen meddling by the occupant of the Kremlin. Europe as an idea is falling apart before our eyes.

Of course, in their world, Obama visiting Britain to campaign against Brexit is not “meddling,” let alone “brazen.”

For those who still believe in the legacy of Erasmus, Dante, Goethe and Comenius there will be only ignominious defeat. A politics of disdain for intelligence and culture will have triumphed. There will be explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism. Disaster will have befallen us.

I think this is pretty problematic. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every free man and woman on the planet.

Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

This is presumably what they mean by carrying “the torch of Europe.” They carry said torch, toss it on woodpiles, then blame Russians and Nazis (but I repeat myself) for the resulting arson.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Europe, Neoliberalism, Western Hypocrisy 
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  1. We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn’t stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and ‘elite whites’ don’t suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

    Don’t forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.

    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate ‘normative’ European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    , @szopen

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)
    , @German_reader

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    It's a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany's president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt
     
    "A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world."

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There's also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn't matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our "values").
    There's also the European dimension of course...I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves "European patriots", it's supposed to mean "patriots of Europe" (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    , @Pericles

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

     

    I'm happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland's adopted black sons.
  2. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise signatories/Guardians’ objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. Ominous.

  3. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?
     
    Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.
    , @neutral
    One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.
  4. @Bies Podkrakowski
    Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way - all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds"

    Ian McEwan lived abroad til he was 12. "I grew up in a Muslim country – Libya – and have only warm memories of a dignified, tolerant and hospitable Islamic culture" he said. Betrayal might be in the blood - his mother was unfaithful to her husband (who was posted abroad) and married McEwan's father (who she'd already had a child by and given it up for adoption) after her husband was killed (in combat if Wiki is to be believed - must have been Malaya).

    Colm Tóibín is an Irishman who's spent more time out of Ireland (mostly in US universities) than in it.

  5. Some of these people are rather funny:

    Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a “soulful bum”.

    In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.

    [Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    Soviet marranos, holy shit...why am I surprised, though?
  6. @Bies Podkrakowski
    Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way - all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.

  7. How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.
    , @El Dato
    > socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

    > with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Calling Hayek and Friedman "neoliberal" is quite wrong.

    Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to "intervene" in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today "traditional liberals": People not into state economic control but not averse to "social" state intervention either:

    https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals


    The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an "ecumenical" undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

    ....

    The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence ... Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into "different groups and clans." He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about "the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )" who were sometimes called the "old conservatives." The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

    ...

    During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek's side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises's eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.
     

    , @Swedish Family

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.
     
    The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

    We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest's second law ("Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing") but perfectly illustrates the third ("The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies").
    , @dfordoom

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian
     
    How exactly is The Guardian socialistic? Are they advocating for the nationalisation of the banks? The breaking up of monopolies? Workers' control of industry? A radical redistribution of wealth?

    Or do they advocate for identity politics and globalism, both of which are antithetical to socialism?
  8. anon[241] • Disclaimer says:

    Vargas Llosa is that writer who once condemned the American invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but then he became enamored of it, because being anti-war was a “fascist” thing and went on to enthusiastically defend the American occupation of Baghdad after an Intourist-style tour organized by the US military. This writer no longer deserves any respect after that.

  9. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin’s articles.

    • Replies: @Ender
    Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?
    , @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    , @Beckow

    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

  10. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    What's the difference?
    , @Yevardian
    They really aren't though. How is making this (false) distinction different from 'but it wasn't "real Communism!', exactly?
  11. Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @neutral
    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it - but not jews.
    , @Hyperborean

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     
    I haven't gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.
    , @songbird
    I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don't know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

    If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.
    , @reiner Tor
    Ágnes Heller, too.
    , @Mr. XYZ
    Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?
  12. Well, if an Indian like Salman Rushdie can get behind the idea of the EU – actually WTF! That’s pretty messed up. He should return to India and campaign for a united India.

  13. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it – but not jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?
  14. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    I haven’t gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.

  15. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.
  16. @Dmitry
    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?

  17. @Dmitry
    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    […]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB’s demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l’horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary ‘centrist’ parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    • Replies: @Ender
    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?
    , @Dmitry
    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

  18. @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?
     
    Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d'interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.
  19. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don’t know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

    If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.

  20. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Ágnes Heller, too.

  21. @Ender
    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d’interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.

  22. Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Literally an open admission that these reptiles are soulless, rootless cosmopolitans.
    Worthless scum.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, Per/Norway
  23. @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).
     
    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.
    , @Dmitry
    He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

    Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the "Fujishock" economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

  24. @szopen

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.

  25. @Dmitry
    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I haven't read books from any of authors' writings either, which is why I wasn't sure. I don't have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

    But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

    I've even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

    As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.


    -

    Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

    The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

  26. @Dmitry
    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

    Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the “Fujishock” economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

  27. @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).
     
    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    I haven’t read books from any of authors’ writings either, which is why I wasn’t sure. I don’t have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

    But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

    I’ve even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

    As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.

    Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

    The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

  28. Antonio Lobo Antunes: Let me be very clear. For me geography does not exist! I strongly object to the whole concept of “foreign literature”…and speaking of national identity: that is how dictatorships get started!

    […]

    Where does one find good literature today? Mostly in third world countries, because adversity, isolation, combat provide good working conditions. It is harder to be a good writer in a so-called “civilized” country, in the so-called “democracies.”

    […]

    Rail: You must be aware that you are considered a difficult author. If one opens a page of this last “novel,” the typographic arrangement, the rhythm, the music of the text seem very close to poetry. The switching among narrative voices, the slipping between first and third person, the associative collages, the dilating and contracting of time, all contribute to the richness of the text. A critic has called your style “barely legible.” Does this disturb you?

    https://brooklynrail.org/2008/11/books/geography-it-doesnt-exist-antonio-lobo-antunes-with-alessandro-cassin

  29. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

    iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their “secular humanism”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I don't think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

    It's more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

  30. will the yentas ever learn?

  31. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany’s president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt

    “A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world.”

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There’s also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn’t matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our “values”).
    There’s also the European dimension of course…I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves “European patriots”, it’s supposed to mean “patriots of Europe” (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.
  32. They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.
    , @songbird
    Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

    I 'm thinking specifically of Langston Hughes - gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

    I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don't write much and aren't often celebrated for their gayness.
  33. @neutral
    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it - but not jews.

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.
    , @DFH
    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
  34. @songbird
    They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    I guess Erasmus counts

    They probably just referenced him because of the EU’s Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I’ve never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    • Replies: @DFH
    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”
     

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html
    , @songbird
    I was thinking that was why they included Goethe - his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

    Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There's a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.
  35. @songbird
    They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

    I ‘m thinking specifically of Langston Hughes – gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

    I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don’t write much and aren’t often celebrated for their gayness.

  36. @German_reader

    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @songbird
    Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

    I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.
  37. @Tyrion 2
    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    It’s 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral’s Nazi-like views that “the international Jew” is behind everything aren’t convincing imo, but I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on “the lessons of Auschwitz” (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to “the Bosnian genocide” or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn’t be surprising though that it’s likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    , @neutral

    aren’t convincing
     
    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.
  38. @Tyrion 2
    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
  39. @German_reader
    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

     

    And checking on Wikipedia - even their composition 1/3 Jewish.
    , @Epigon
    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
    , @melanf

    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe
     
    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.
  40. @German_reader

    Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.
     
    iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their "secular humanism".

    I don’t think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

    It’s more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

  41. @Dmitry
    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    And checking on Wikipedia – even their composition 1/3 Jewish.

  42. @Hyperborean
    Some of these people are rather funny:

    Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a "soulful bum".
     

    In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.
     

    [Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.
     

    Soviet marranos, holy shit…why am I surprised, though?

  43. I haven’t read him, but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama’s book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry’s earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.
    , @Tyrion 2
    If one were to design a person who'd be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it'd be a replica of Simon Schama.
  44. @Anatoly Karlin
    I haven't read him, but isn't Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama's book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry's earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe

    I think he’s mostly known for speaking out against Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven’t read him either though (and don’t intend to), can’t comment on his literary merits.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.
    , @Yevardian
    I've only read Kar (Snow), was a passable (if humorless like most Turkish literature) middlebrow novel, didn't strike me as overly political or preachy. He frequently oversteps the line between 'homage' and outright lifting famous passages from other Turkish writers though.
  45. @DFH
    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    • Replies: @DFH

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don't get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You'd be surrounded by your own people and wouldn't have to feel lonely. You're free to leave any time.

    , @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    "Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile."

    The jew cries out in pain as he orders you to stop noticing.
  46. @Tyrion 2
    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don’t get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You’d be surrounded by your own people and wouldn’t have to feel lonely. You’re free to leave any time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.
  47. @Anatoly Karlin
    I haven't read him, but isn't Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama's book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry's earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    If one were to design a person who’d be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it’d be a replica of Simon Schama.

  48. @DFH

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don't get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You'd be surrounded by your own people and wouldn't have to feel lonely. You're free to leave any time.

    If you didn’t make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    • Replies: @DFH
    If Jews weren't 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn't complain about them and their political views so much.
    , @German_reader
    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there's no incentive to change among members of said minority).
    , @Per/Norway
    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!
  49. @German_reader

    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    I was thinking that was why they included Goethe – his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

    Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There’s a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.

  50. @Tyrion 2
    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    If Jews weren’t 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn’t complain about them and their political views so much.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    1. They're not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.
  51. @Tyrion 2
    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there’s no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Why?
  52. @Dmitry
    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    …Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    Really? I don’t think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms – a ‘cosmopolitan’ plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that’s just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: ‘and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin…‘. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person – he literally just follows the food.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.
    , @reiner Tor
    I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.
    , @LH

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.
     
    This is true, also due to his own choice. He does not allow translations of his (French written) books to the Czech language.
  53. @DFH
    If Jews weren't 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn't complain about them and their political views so much.

    1. They’re not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    • Replies: @DFH
    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.
     
    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.
  54. @German_reader
    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    aren’t convincing

    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you'd still be pretending it is all about the Jews.
  55. @German_reader
    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there's no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    Why?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded "bigotry" (repellent to every moral person) and we're all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.
  56. @neutral

    aren’t convincing
     
    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you’d still be pretending it is all about the Jews.

  57. @DFH
    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”
     

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

    I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.

  58. @Beckow

    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera’s the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera’s books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera’s famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I’m not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    , @utu
    Milan Kundera 'was an informant to Czech secret police'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6399364/Milan-Kundera-was-an-informant-to-Czech-secret-police.html
    , @Swedish Family

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.
     
    Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera's popularity in the West (I don't know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

    Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis' review of Don Quixote

    And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.
     
  59. @Tyrion 2
    1. They're not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,
     
    No, it doesn't.
  60. Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you'll find no examples.
  61. @Tyrion 2
    Why?

    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded “bigotry” (repellent to every moral person) and we’re all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.
  62. Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through ‘worst crisis since the 30’s‘ is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

    When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30’s!!!), their vocabulary – none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

    This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don’t have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn’t work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won’t fix that.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Agree.

    Especially with:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.
     

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.
     

    This is a sign of panic.
     
    The opponent's panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.
  63. @German_reader
    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded "bigotry" (repellent to every moral person) and we're all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of "Jews getting the best jobs" due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn't convincing.
  64. @German_reader

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems – as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.
    , @songbird
    I may have mentioned it before - I know it is tenuous - but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.
  65. @DFH
    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.
     
    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,

    No, it doesn’t.

    • Replies: @DFH

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     
    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn't insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.
  66. @Tyrion 2

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,
     
    No, it doesn't.

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn’t insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.
  67. @Dmitry
    Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

    And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you’ll find no examples.

  68. @Tyrion 2
    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of “Jews getting the best jobs” due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    • Agree: iffen, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    You're confusing "Best job" as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the "most moral". Very few times do people refer to "best job" as the "most moral", normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

    This means my point was true.

    but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.
     
    I've never done that. Indeed, I've often done the opposite.
  69. @DFH

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     
    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn't insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment…also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    • Replies: @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    , @DFH
    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It's a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.
  70. @Beckow
    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through 'worst crisis since the 30's' is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian - it suggest that they don't have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

    When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30's!!!), their vocabulary - none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

    This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don't have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn't work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won't fix that.

    Agree.

    Especially with:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.

    This is a sign of panic.

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.
     
    It also creates a very volatile environment - and that's what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30's!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?
  71. @Dmitry
    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems

    They’d say they’re only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    , @Beckow

    ...only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people
     
    Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate - at this point - Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

    The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

    'brazen meddling by Kremlin' is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.
  72. @Tyrion 2
    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful

    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. ‘Anti-racist’ and ‘anti-fascist’ groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can’t ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.
    , @Mr. XYZ
    Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?
  73. @Tyrion 2
    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It’s a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I'm not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn't the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I'd win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.
  74. @Dmitry
    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    I may have mentioned it before – I know it is tenuous – but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.

  75. @German_reader
    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of "Jews getting the best jobs" due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn't convincing.

    You’re confusing “Best job” as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the “most moral”. Very few times do people refer to “best job” as the “most moral”, normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

    This means my point was true.

    but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    I’ve never done that. Indeed, I’ve often done the opposite.

  76. @Dmitry
    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don’t think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes – people project on him.

    I can’t control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don’t see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    • Replies: @El Dato

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.
     
    I only read Kundera's "The Joke" back in the Cold War. Can't remember much but I don't think there was sex.

    However, BHL's early work "Le Diable en Tête" fits your description well. I don't really remember much, but it was like Portnoy's Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.
    , @reiner Tor
    I also liked Kafka back then, too.
  77. @DFH
    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It's a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    I’m not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    • Replies: @DFH

    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised
     
    'My behaviour' was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as 'vile'.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)
     
    I'm not really sure what 'maximising citizenship value' is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

     

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn't make him British.
  78. @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    • Replies: @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

     

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.
  79. @German_reader

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    It’s acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of “dog whistle” in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world’s most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.
    , @German_reader
    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.
  80. @peterAUS
    Agree.

    Especially with:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.
     

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.
     

    This is a sign of panic.
     
    The opponent's panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    • Replies: @peterAUS

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.
     
    Oh yes.....

    People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.
     
    Yep.

    I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.
     
    Yep.
    Two of us have "talked" about this a lot here. Don't know about you but, at my age, I'd definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
    "Cheerful" thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO.......30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?
     
    Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
    M.A.D.
  81. @Dmitry
    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.

  82. @Tyrion 2
    I'm not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn't the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I'd win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn’t make him British.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’
     
    No, I didn't. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

    The "vile" obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.
     
    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
     
    Why do you enjoy pretending that I'm not British?
  83. @Dmitry
    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    Sure, it’s ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU’s self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    More than a scapegoat - they need an enemy.

    I really like the part about:


    ...EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice
     
    We see the famous 'mistakes were made' passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on 'cowardice'. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war...
    , @Dmitry
    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see "doggy whistle" allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

  84. @Tyrion 2
    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.
     
    What apologetics? Where?
  85. @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

     

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    What apologetics? Where?

    • Replies: @DFH
    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:


    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

  86. @German_reader

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    …only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people

    Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate – at this point – Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

    The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

    brazen meddling by Kremlin‘ is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.

  87. @Dmitry
    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Interesting.
  88. @German_reader
    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    More than a scapegoat – they need an enemy.

    I really like the part about:

    …EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice

    We see the famous ‘mistakes were made‘ passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on ‘cowardice‘. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war…

  89. @Tyrion 2

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.
     
    What apologetics? Where?

    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

  90. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    > socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

    > with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Calling Hayek and Friedman “neoliberal” is quite wrong.

    Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to “intervene” in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today “traditional liberals”: People not into state economic control but not averse to “social” state intervention either:

    https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals

    The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an “ecumenical” undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

    ….

    The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence … Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into “different groups and clans.” He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about “the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )” who were sometimes called the “old conservatives.” The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

    During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek’s side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises’s eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.

  91. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

    We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest’s second law (“Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing”) but perfectly illustrates the third (“The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies”).

  92. @German_reader

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    It's a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany's president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt
     
    "A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world."

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There's also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn't matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our "values").
    There's also the European dimension of course...I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves "European patriots", it's supposed to mean "patriots of Europe" (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    “I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.”
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand — that is to say, co-opt — nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it's distinguished from "bad" nationalism, it doesn't have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate ("let's not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!").
    , @Tyrion 2
    Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist - love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There's no need for love of country to support a nation state.
    , @Hyperborean

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?
  93. @DFH

    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised
     
    'My behaviour' was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as 'vile'.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)
     
    I'm not really sure what 'maximising citizenship value' is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

     

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn't make him British.

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’

    No, I didn’t. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.

    Why do you enjoy pretending that I’m not British?

  94. @DFH
    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:


    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals. That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    • Replies: @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals
     
    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn's paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?
     
    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

     

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn't help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you'd view British nationalism through the lens of 'what's good with the Jews'.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

     

    I haven't 'threatened' anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

     

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.
    , @iffen
    probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

    Who is this "our side" of which you speak kemo sabe?
  95. @Swedish Family

    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it’s distinguished from “bad” nationalism, it doesn’t have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate (“let’s not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!”).

  96. @Dmitry
    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera’s popularity in the West (I don’t know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

    Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis’ review of Don Quixote

    And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.

  97. @Swedish Family

    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist – love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There’s no need for love of country to support a nation state.

  98. @German_reader
    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see “doggy whistle” allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.
     
    I don't know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?
  99. Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    • Replies: @German_reader
    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn't look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they're embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.
    , @Anon 2
    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.
  100. @Tyrion 2
    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals

    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn’s paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you’d view British nationalism through the lens of ‘what’s good with the Jews’.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.
     
    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I'm just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don't care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?
     
    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.
     
    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.
     
    You forget the concept of "truth". What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.
  101. Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy’s name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy’s mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin’s Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I’ll come to his tirade in a moment, but let’s first have a look at Houellebecq’s warm feelings for Moscow.

    A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

    Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

    The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

    And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

    I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.
     
    It's probably just part of his milieu, those "new philosophers" are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.
  102. @Tyrion 2
    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

    Who is this “our side” of which you speak kemo sabe?

  103. @Beckow

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.
     
    It also creates a very volatile environment - and that's what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30's!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.

    Oh yes…..

    People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.

    Yep.

    I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Yep.
    Two of us have “talked” about this a lot here. Don’t know about you but, at my age, I’d definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
    “Cheerful” thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO…….30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
    M.A.D.

  104. In a related article, the Guardian helpfully informs us that (my bold):

    The 800-word paean was drafted by the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals

    paean: A song of praise or thanksgiving; a shout or song of triumph, joy, or exultation. Also fig.: an expression of praise or admiration; a tribute (to something). [OED]

  105. @Dmitry
    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see "doggy whistle" allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    I don’t know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    On one level, they have to be intelligent - to construct the coherent work of literature.

    Of course, your point is true - talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

  106. @Beckow

    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.

  107. Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy’s reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet …

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,
     
    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..
    , @songbird
    "Stalin-Hitler combo" really makes me laugh.

    It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn't quite cross it.
    , @Beckow
    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of 'Russia'. He projects most evil in the world on Russia - now and even in the future. He talks about having once 'had a certain idea of Russia', he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don't want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.
  108. @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals
     
    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn's paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?
     
    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

     

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn't help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you'd view British nationalism through the lens of 'what's good with the Jews'.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

     

    I haven't 'threatened' anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

     

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I’m just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    • Replies: @DFH

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

     

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are 'going bezerk'

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

     

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.
     
    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

     

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it's only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

     

    What you wrote wasn't true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I've never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.
  109. @Swedish Family
    Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy's name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy's mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin's Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It's fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I'll come to his tirade in a moment, but let's first have a look at Houellebecq's warm feelings for Moscow.

    A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

    Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

    The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

    And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

    I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.
     

    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.

    It’s probably just part of his milieu, those “new philosophers” are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    The "Gluck" became a unit of Russophobia on the Inosmi message boards around that time (mid-2000s). They would rate articles out of 10 Glucks.

    (Inosmi was the translation project to make foreign language articles accessible to Russians).

    I think I’ll be on commenting hiatus for the next few weeks
     
    Best of luck. We all appreciate your presence here, but IRL stuff should take precedence.
  110. Anonymous[200] • Disclaimer says:

    Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

    False dichotomy for one.

    Why would Europe “be destroyed”. How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US “recommendations” regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

    Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled “La Grande Peur des Bienpensants” (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

    It’s time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

    How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

    I found this for people who are into french:

    https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    the wreckers will destroy it
     
    The wreckers will wreck...literary dreck.
  111. @utu
    Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn’t look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they’re embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran...what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We'll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.
  112. @Beckow
    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.

    I only read Kundera’s “The Joke” back in the Cold War. Can’t remember much but I don’t think there was sex.

    However, BHL’s early work “Le Diable en Tête” fits your description well. I don’t really remember much, but it was like Portnoy’s Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.

  113. @German_reader

    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.
     
    It's probably just part of his milieu, those "new philosophers" are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.

  114. @Anonymous

    Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it
     
    False dichotomy for one.

    Why would Europe "be destroyed". How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US "recommendations" regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

    Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled "La Grande Peur des Bienpensants" (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

    It's time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

    How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

    I found this for people who are into french:

    https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

    the wreckers will destroy it

    The wreckers will wreck…literary dreck.

  115. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..
     
    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don't know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who 'defected' from Nashi.
  116. @German_reader
    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn't look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they're embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We’ll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.
  117. @Beckow
    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    I also liked Kafka back then, too.

  118. @German_reader

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.
     
    I don't know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    On one level, they have to be intelligent – to construct the coherent work of literature.

    Of course, your point is true – talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

  119. @Tyrion 2
    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran...what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We'll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They’re only doing this, because they’re slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran’s theocratic system, but that doesn’t mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that’s what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Aren't we talking about allowing a conference?
    , @Tyrion 2
    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context
    , @utu
    they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.
  120. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    “Stalin-Hitler combo” really makes me laugh.

    It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn’t quite cross it.

  121. @utu
    Milan Kundera 'was an informant to Czech secret police'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6399364/Milan-Kundera-was-an-informant-to-Czech-secret-police.html

    Interesting.

  122. @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Aren’t we talking about allowing a conference?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.
  123. @Tyrion 2
    Aren't we talking about allowing a conference?

    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    They're bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?
  124. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    I’m happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland’s adopted black sons.

  125. @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Here’s another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    • Replies: @DFH
    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don't really understand your point.
    , @German_reader
    I don't give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who's of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I'm not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it's possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it's hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today's antiracism. And it's not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.
  126. @German_reader
    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    They’re bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?
     
    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There's a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with "old" and "new Europe" during the Iraq war.
  127. @Tyrion 2

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.
     
    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I'm just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don't care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?
     
    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.
     
    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.
     
    You forget the concept of "truth". What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are ‘going bezerk’

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.
     
    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.
     
    It isn't harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?
     
    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.
     
    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It'd be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group's opinions.

    On the other hand, "systemic" racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway
     
    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from "public intellectuals". That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you'd just ignore those - confirmation bias sucks.
  128. @Tyrion 2
    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don’t really understand your point.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?
  129. I’m mildly surprised that Salman Rushdie signed up for this, given that he was chased out of his adopted home country by migrants. It seems difficult memories fade.

    Kundera made his career from being oppressed by Soviet migrants. But that was a long time ago and in a different country. Still in the EU, though.

    Orhan Pamuk writes from a core piece of Europe forcibly occupied by migrants since 1453. Perhaps they should give it back.

    All in all, not a good showing by the literati.

  130. @Tyrion 2
    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    I don’t give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who’s of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I’m not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it’s possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it’s hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today’s antiracism. And it’s not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    • Agree: iffen, DFH, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I've never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I'll assume your motivations are malicious.
  131. @DFH

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

     

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are 'going bezerk'

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

     

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.
     
    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

     

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it's only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

     

    What you wrote wasn't true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I've never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    It isn’t harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    On the other hand, “systemic” racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from “public intellectuals”. That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those – confirmation bias sucks.

    • Replies: @DFH

    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.
     
    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

     

    Lol, what does 'stealing' your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

     

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you're accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

     

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn't how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

     

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn't part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn't think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those
     
    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.
  132. @DFH
    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don't really understand your point.

    Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?

  133. @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.

  134. @Tyrion 2
    They're bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There’s a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with “old” and “new Europe” during the Iraq war.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you're advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.
  135. @German_reader
    I don't give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who's of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I'm not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it's possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it's hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today's antiracism. And it's not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    I’ve never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I’ll assume your motivations are malicious.

  136. @German_reader

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?
     
    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There's a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with "old" and "new Europe" during the Iraq war.

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you’re advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.
  137. @Tyrion 2
    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you're advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    You've made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran's feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.
    , @iffen
    I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.
  138. @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    You’ve made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you
     
    You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
    Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.
  139. @Tyrion 2

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.
     
    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.
     
    It isn't harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?
     
    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.
     
    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It'd be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group's opinions.

    On the other hand, "systemic" racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway
     
    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from "public intellectuals". That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you'd just ignore those - confirmation bias sucks.

    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Lol, what does ‘stealing’ your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn’t how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn’t part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn’t think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then
     
    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems...zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.
     
    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you're accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!
     
    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it'd be strange if they weren't a third of signatories to this letter.
  140. “We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught”

    what is this nonsensical sentence.

    i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that’s really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

    “Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it”. that’s impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is “That’s not who we are”. still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

    invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn’t devised by leftists.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    It is one the same level as Soros' attitude towards China.

    Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

    Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.
     

    China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.
     
    https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

    Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?
  141. @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.

  142. @Tyrion 2
    You've made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran's feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you

    You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
    Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.

    • LOL: DFH
    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  143. @Tyrion 2
    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    • Replies: @anonymous coward

    want the occupiers to leave Palestine
     
    Please don't. Let's keep them in their designated places. The world won't survive another diaspora.
  144. @prime noticer
    "We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught"

    what is this nonsensical sentence.

    i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that's really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

    "Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it". that's impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is "That's not who we are". still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

    invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn't devised by leftists.

    It is one the same level as Soros’ attitude towards China.

    Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

    Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.

    China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.

    https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

    Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?

  145. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?

  146. @Anatoly Karlin
    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    What’s the difference?

  147. @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?

  148. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don’t want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.
     
    Yes, this is his id speaking. Russia arouses some deep-seated rage in him, but the rage is so wildly disproportionate to what is actually there that he is forced to accuse it of everything under the sun.
  149. The string ‘Tyrion 2’ pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    • Replies: @Ender
    Hasbarafl ftw?
    , @reiner Tor
    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?
  150. Nietzsche spoke of the “gravediggers burying God” in The Gay Science. Today, we’ve become the “gravediggers of the European idea” instead. Is this conscious or unconscious self-parody? Are all these educated signatories aware that they’ve put “the European idea” in place of God?

  151. @Dmitry

    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,
     
    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don’t know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who ‘defected’ from Nashi.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Lol "Putinjugend". Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

    The "Nashi" summer camp, looked fun in a weird way - they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

    Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

    She had bags of money - presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
    https://i.imgur.com/nvykB5V.jpg

    The weird thing - the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.
    https://i.imgur.com/AglLaCh.jpg

  152. @utu
    The string 'Tyrion 2' pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    Hasbarafl ftw?

  153. @Swedish Family

    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    • Replies: @utu
    I rarely saw Swedish flags - I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.
  154. @Hyperborean

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    I rarely saw Swedish flags – I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    • Replies: @Anonymous lurker
    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

  155. @Hyperborean

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..
     
    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don't know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who 'defected' from Nashi.

    Lol “Putinjugend”. Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

    The “Nashi” summer camp, looked fun in a weird way – they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

    Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

    She had bags of money – presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
    The weird thing – the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    TIL Potupchik is a Jewess. Is that really true? Amazed I haven't come across that. Would have thought it'd get mentioned in nationalist circles...
  156. @Per/Norway
    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    want the occupiers to leave Palestine

    Please don’t. Let’s keep them in their designated places. The world won’t survive another diaspora.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    Won't survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?
  157. @anonymous coward

    want the occupiers to leave Palestine
     
    Please don't. Let's keep them in their designated places. The world won't survive another diaspora.

    Won’t survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?

  158. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the signatories appear to be
    urban intellectuals, i.e., people who spend a disproportionate amount
    of time sitting in warm well-lit rooms staring at screens, writing, and
    talking. Is this something we’re supposed to admire? The highest ideal
    to aspire to?

    Consider these three great individuals: the Buddha, Socrates, and Jesus.
    None of them wrote books, none of them were rich (Buddha was born into
    wealth but rejected it), and none of them were famous (except locally)
    or sought fame during their lifetimes. Many people try to follow in the
    footsteps of the Buddha and/or Jesus. Hence they will sympathize with
    Thomas Aquinas, the founder of rational theology who married Christianity
    to Aristotle, who in 1273, after undergoing profound mystical experiences,
    said, “It’s all straw” (referring to his writings). Or with Terence McKenna,
    the American psychonaut who said “Culture is not your friend” or “Television
    is by nature the dominator drug par excellence” (not that I agree with him on
    everything).

    Perhaps countries such as China or India that are still trying to make
    the leap from the pre-modern to modern stage need more intellectuals
    but the West is now resolutely in the postmodern stage (Cf. Lyotard’s 1979
    definition, “I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives),
    effectively marking the end of the Enlightenment Project and its
    universalistic claims. One thing the West doesn’t need is more
    intellectuals – the latter serve the interests of the materialistic
    ruling class (with their “Let them eat cake” attitude) anyway, not
    realizing that the people are increasingly disillusioned with science,
    technology, and modernity in general. Return to Europe’s pagan roots
    (albeit on a more sophisticated level where the gods and goddesses are
    interpreted as Jungian archetypes), and to localisms and regionalisms
    are some aspects of the growing populist rejection of the globalist
    elites. The intellect has failed us, and hence what we need more of is growth
    in awareness and in emotional intelligence. As always, following Aristotle and
    the Buddha (The Middle Way), everything in moderation – we need not
    reject the intellect completely but there is certainly no reason to worship it.

  159. @utu
    Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.
     
    https://brodude.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/brodude.ru_28.03.2014_0UCbzQD15IDii.jpg

    I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

    , @utu
    Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?
    , @German_reader

    Can
    the Germans,
     
    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they've been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn't that profound.
    As for Poland's "close relationship" to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.
  160. @Anon 2
    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.


    I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

  161. @DFH

    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.
     
    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

     

    Lol, what does 'stealing' your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

     

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you're accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

     

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn't how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

     

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn't part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn't think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those
     
    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    • Replies: @DFH

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

     

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

     

    ??????? You said that Jews were 'massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia', who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

     

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.
  162. @utu
    The string 'Tyrion 2' pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    • Replies: @iffen
    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:


    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.
     
    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….
     
    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
  163. @Tyrion 2

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then
     
    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems...zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.
     
    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you're accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!
     
    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it'd be strange if they weren't a third of signatories to this letter.

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    ??????? You said that Jews were ‘massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia’, who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    I'll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn't happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don't think you'll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You're the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.
  164. @DFH

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

     

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

     

    ??????? You said that Jews were 'massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia', who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

     

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    I’ll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn’t happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don’t think you’ll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You’re the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the "natural aristocracy".

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life's natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives' successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn't work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about "the Jews"? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn't afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That's not a coincidence.
  165. @Dmitry
    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
     

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug's dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today's elite was yesterday's elite, which was yesteryear's elite, and so on ...

    * I'm looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

  166. Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ….

    Glad I don’t see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, …

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?
    , @Hyperborean
    Ernst Nolte is deceased.
    , @German_reader
    Apart from the fact that he's dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn't seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.
    , @Dmitry
    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with "Fujishock" , restoring the country's economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It's emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

  167. @Anon 2
    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?

  168. @Dmitry
    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe

    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Lol, but you would prefer to read books of the bestselling authors?

    By the way in their political views, there is little difference. I just researched that J.K. Rowling (who earns millions of dollars in Russia each year) believes that Trump is controlled by Putin.

  169. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?
     
    For the record, so is Tomas Tranströmer, whom Dmitry cited above as one of three Nobel laureates not to sign the letter.
  170. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    So, that's why I haven't heard of him lately...... Pity this is not 19th C & available spiritualist mediums are not worth the trouble.
  171. @Hyperborean
    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn't approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany's self-abolition in particular.
  172. @Hyperborean
    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    So, that’s why I haven’t heard of him lately…… Pity this is not 19th C & available spiritualist mediums are not worth the trouble.

  173. It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they’ve signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin’s 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), …

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don’t think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I’ve noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I'd strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.
    , @AP
    Thanks for the recommendation.
  174. @Anatoly Karlin
    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    They really aren’t though. How is making this (false) distinction different from ‘but it wasn’t “real Communism!’, exactly?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I'm not sure how writing it like it is a text file extension, changes meaning either.

    The terminology "neoliberal", was useful to clarify later 20th century ideologies based in the historic 19th century knowledge and views of "classical liberalism".

    People introduced this clarification because a meaning of "liberal" was changed in the early 20th century to refer only as a kind of moderate socialism with permissive social views.

    Thinkers of "neoliberalism" are Hayek, Friedman, et al. Although the terminology "classical liberal" may be less corrupted by propaganda.

    Hayek indeed believed in some European economic federalism. But this is not a superstate ideology which EU was actually following.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Hayek was also most associated with Margaret Thatcher, who opposed immigration to the UK.

  175. @German_reader

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.

    I’ve only read Kar (Snow), was a passable (if humorless like most Turkish literature) middlebrow novel, didn’t strike me as overly political or preachy. He frequently oversteps the line between ‘homage’ and outright lifting famous passages from other Turkish writers though.

  176. @Bardon Kaldian
    It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they've signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin's 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), ...

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don't think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I've noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413TSc-R0SL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I’d strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    You don't know what you're talking about. If a guy writes a book on, say, homosexuals, he can include Marcel Proust & Ernst Roehm, both of them. So what?
  177. @Yevardian
    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I'd strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. If a guy writes a book on, say, homosexuals, he can include Marcel Proust & Ernst Roehm, both of them. So what?

  178. @Anon 2
    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Can
    the Germans,

    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they’ve been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn’t that profound.
    As for Poland’s “close relationship” to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    True. Many Germans began emigrating to the 13 American colonies in the
    18th century. The Polish immigrants have come primarily in the last 200
    years so the links are much closer. Moreover, because the U.S. fought
    Germany in both world wars, there is a lot of unpleasant history involving
    Germans in the U.S. 1. More Americans were killed by Germany than by
    any other country. Steve Sailer even jokes that all the good Germans came
    to America leaving only the bad Germans in Europe. 2. German nationals
    were placed in internment camps during both wars, more during
    WW I, 3. The anti-German hatred was so intense around 1914-5 that a number
    of German nationals were lynched in the state of Missouri.

    In contrast, Polish aristocrats and nobility had friendships at the highest
    levels of American politics. For example, Generals Kosciuszko (who designed
    West Point) and Pulaski were friends with Washington and Jefferson. General
    Krzyzanowski fought in the Civil War. Paderewski, Polish nobleman and
    a great pianist, was close friends with President Woodrow Wilson, and made
    a decisive contribution to Poland’s independence. Polish aristocrat Alfred
    Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, socialized after WW I with
    (the future General) Patton. Both were accomplished cavalry men and
    swordsmen, i.e., not mere intellectuals but also men of action. And, of course,
    another Polish aristocrat, Zbigniew Brzezinski, played an important role
    in recent American politics. Noblemen and aristocrats were such a novelty in the
    U.S. that they easily found access to the highest levels of power. Many people
    wanted to be friends with them.

    Tom Malinowski whom I mentioned, has a famous name, but I don’t know
    if he is related to Bronislaw Malinowski, one of the founders of
    anthropology. However, he had already served in the Obama
    administration. He is now a Democratic congressman from New Jersey.
  179. @utu
    I rarely saw Swedish flags - I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don’t really follow.

    • Replies: @utu
    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)
    , @Hyperborean

    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

     

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.


    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    [...]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    [...]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.
     
    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.
    , @Swedish Family

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.
     
    This is all true. I will add only that our Swedish flag is sensitive to context. Sporting a T-shirt with a Swedish flag on it is not the done thing, nor is having a Swedish flag as your avatar on social media, but flying it on holidays is fine, and so is any display of it abroad. I'm speaking of the major cities here. Small-towners are more accepting.

    Overall, you find far less flag-waving here than in Eastern Europe*. I think this is because flag rituals are first of all a young country's game. When your nation has had its own state for centuries, these overt expressions of fealty feel a little desperate.

    * Fewer EU flags too. The Baltics especially are swimming in them. Things that make you go hmm.
  180. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Apart from the fact that he’s dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn’t seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I don't know about these nuances, but short & candid talk with anyone, centering on crucial issues, would be sufficient to ascertain whether we're dealing with normal people or corrupt/delusional wackos.
  181. @reiner Tor
    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn’t approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany’s self-abolition in particular.

    • Replies: @utu
    Germany needs people like Nolte.
  182. @German_reader
    Apart from the fact that he's dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn't seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    I don’t know about these nuances, but short & candid talk with anyone, centering on crucial issues, would be sufficient to ascertain whether we’re dealing with normal people or corrupt/delusional wackos.

  183. @Tyrion 2
    I'll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn't happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don't think you'll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You're the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the “natural aristocracy”.

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life’s natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives’ successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn’t work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about “the Jews”? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn’t afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That’s not a coincidence.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.
  184. @reiner Tor
    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven’t noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….

    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.
  185. @iffen
    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:


    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.
     
    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….
     
    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    Maybe he’s some kind of bot, might explain why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    Either you're dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they're even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.
    , @iffen
    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.
  186. @Tyrion 2
    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the "natural aristocracy".

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life's natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives' successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn't work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about "the Jews"? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn't afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That's not a coincidence.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Order, logic and decency hasn’t won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.
    , @utu
    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

  187. @Hyperborean

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.
    Mainstream “conservative” parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.
     
    I remember some American alt-right writers were joking in an interview that they would have achieved their aim when they were executed by the new government for being 'too leftist'.

    I think it is hard to avert the course that has been now, and it might have been predestined by decisions set in place years ago. What is to be determined is what is left after the deluge.
    , @Tyrion 2
    It would help if those to the right of them didn't self-identity as "vicious fascists".
    , @songbird
    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
  188. @German_reader

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.

    I remember some American alt-right writers were joking in an interview that they would have achieved their aim when they were executed by the new government for being ‘too leftist’.

    I think it is hard to avert the course that has been now, and it might have been predestined by decisions set in place years ago. What is to be determined is what is left after the deluge.

  189. @German_reader

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.

    Either you’re dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they’re even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.
     
    That sounds very bot-like, are you just stringing random words together?
    Don't really see your point, it's not like I advocated for a political movement based on antisemitism (that would indeed probably be not a good idea).
    Hard not to get the impression that you enjoy pointless internet fights (iirc over on Sailer's blog you even exchanged insults with commenter "Twinkie" who can hardly be accused of being a white nationalist). I don't have time for that, so unless you've got something substantial to add, I'll end this exchange here.
  190. @German_reader
    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn't approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany's self-abolition in particular.

    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    I agree, but I don't see them anywhere. Nolte's fate (becoming an unperson with zero influence in mainstream discussions) wasn't exactly encouraging. And the general situation has become a lot worse since the 1980s.
  191. @German_reader

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    It would help if those to the right of them didn’t self-identity as “vicious fascists”.

    • Replies: @neutral
    No it would help if they worked for the interests for their own kind as opposed always seeking to please jews first.
  192. @Bardon Kaldian
    It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they've signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin's 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), ...

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don't think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I've noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413TSc-R0SL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Thanks for the recommendation.

  193. @Tyrion 2
    Either you're dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they're even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    That sounds very bot-like, are you just stringing random words together?
    Don’t really see your point, it’s not like I advocated for a political movement based on antisemitism (that would indeed probably be not a good idea).
    Hard not to get the impression that you enjoy pointless internet fights (iirc over on Sailer’s blog you even exchanged insults with commenter “Twinkie” who can hardly be accused of being a white nationalist). I don’t have time for that, so unless you’ve got something substantial to add, I’ll end this exchange here.

    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  194. @Tyrion 2
    It would help if those to the right of them didn't self-identity as "vicious fascists".

    No it would help if they worked for the interests for their own kind as opposed always seeking to please jews first.

  195. @utu
    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    I agree, but I don’t see them anywhere. Nolte’s fate (becoming an unperson with zero influence in mainstream discussions) wasn’t exactly encouraging. And the general situation has become a lot worse since the 1980s.

  196. @Anonymous lurker
    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” – I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    • Replies: @Mitleser

    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.
     

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.
     
    https://twitter.com/BorzoiBoskovic/status/1062141326752407553
    , @Anonymous lurker
    I'm guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don't know.

    It's just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it's one of the few forms of everyday "nationalism" that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from "above" to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn't celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn't even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it's all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.
    , @songbird
    To me, the flag used to be meaningful, but after 9/11 people started to put it up to use it to virtue signal support for the government or that they were against terrorism. And by now, the government has successfully subverted it, partly through mass immigration, to the point where it has close to no meaningful value.

    When I was a boy, we hung it up at a cottage in the countryside and an old vet walking down the street saluted it, even though he was about a 100 feet away, and it was a very sparsely populated place. I don't think anyone would do that today.

    IMO, that is why they attacked the Confederate flag. Because the feds could not fly it, but it represented originalist values. All that is left is the Gadsden Flag, but flying a snake isn't the same thing. They also take note of you, if you do.
  197. @Anonymous lurker
    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    […]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    […]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.

    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?
  198. @Hyperborean

    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

     

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.


    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    [...]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    [...]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.
     
    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    • Replies: @songbird
    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There's a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.
    , @Hyperborean

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?
     
    I don't know, no one ever told me and I never bothered to wonder why (I suppose I prove the point, lol). At least in Denmark, there are also other rules like the flag must never touch the ground and (IIRC) it should be folded in a certain manner.


    I have never actually done any flag raising, it is just part of what I am told about.

    , @utu

    What’s the point of that rule?
     
    Lighten up. The rules are for military and Boy Scouts. Garrison Keillor touches on this issue when destroying Bernard-Henri Lévy's pretentious book on America:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/on-the-road-avec-m-levy.html
    But every 10 pages or so, Lévy walks into a wall. About Old Glory, for example. Someone has told him about the rules for proper handling of the flag, and from these (the flag must not be allowed to touch the ground, must be disposed of by burning) he has invented an American flag fetish, a national obsession, a cult of flag worship. Somebody forgot to tell him that to those of us not currently enrolled in the Boy Scouts, these rules aren't a big part of everyday life.
     
  199. @German_reader

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There’s a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather.
     
    That seems kind of logical if the point is to avoid harm to the flag as a national symbol. I don't quite get though why it would be wrong to keep it up at night.

    It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.
     
    Swedes of course have a law about it, and then scrupulously comply with it. Lol, even worse than Germans.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard.
     
    Only time one ever really sees much of the German flag is international football matches (world cup etc.). Yes, apart from that it's not that common for private citizens to fly it (though occasionally one does see it).
  200. @German_reader

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.
    , @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.
     
    Yes, and that needs to end, so concern-trolling of the kind shown by Tyrion2 above ("It's no wonder you're not regarded as respectable when you don't disavow all those nasty racists!") has to be rejected. It's still true that any political movement needs to set boundaries, one can't just accept every crank who wants to promote his pet obsessions; but one should never accept the framing of debate set by one's political opponents.
  201. @German_reader

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    I don’t know, no one ever told me and I never bothered to wonder why (I suppose I prove the point, lol). At least in Denmark, there are also other rules like the flag must never touch the ground and (IIRC) it should be folded in a certain manner.

    I have never actually done any flag raising, it is just part of what I am told about.

  202. @songbird
    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There's a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather.

    That seems kind of logical if the point is to avoid harm to the flag as a national symbol. I don’t quite get though why it would be wrong to keep it up at night.

    It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    Swedes of course have a law about it, and then scrupulously comply with it. Lol, even worse than Germans.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard.

    Only time one ever really sees much of the German flag is international football matches (world cup etc.). Yes, apart from that it’s not that common for private citizens to fly it (though occasionally one does see it).

  203. @utu
    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.

    • Replies: @utu
    Turks have a very thin skin.
  204. @songbird
    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy’s Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.

    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.

    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.

    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.

    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.
     
    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?
    , @Beckow
    One way to look at Cafavy's poem (I like it a lot) is that it describes a society that has reached a post-history stage. No ideology, no action or ambition, can even pretend to fix anything. There are no solutions because everything has been tried and found wanting. All that is left is a violent reset to restart the process.

    It is a historical analogy to Wittgenstein's climb up a tree, ever higher to ever thinner branches, until at the end he is stuck on the thinnest, most remote small branch, with no way forward or back. At that point all that is left is to saw off the branch.

    We are not there, yet. What we see are that large groups have accepted the usual combination of ennui and greed and are consciously or absent-mindedly pushing our societies toward dissolution. Either bring in the barbarians or - even more crazy - let's have a 'revolution'. The more unhinged among them connect the two.

    They are driven by determinism of their own making. I am always struck by their last refuge when they lose an argument (they always lose) - 'it is inevitable', 'the mish-mash global utopia is here to stay, make the best out of it'. There is an abandonment of free will. People abandon free will when all choices seem like they would make things worse.

    , @songbird
    That's an interesting poem. I had not heard it before.

    I'm still hoping for DNA evidence of what happened. Might be that people were getting dumber, even without admixture.

    That seems to be happening now. The Flynn effect has peaked and started to reverse, even in real Europeans. And that is certainly an interesting phenomenon, as others like Cochran have pointed out, because to acknowledge it means that you are acknowledging that selection pressures can shape IQ. And if that happens on a small time scale, how much more likely is it that it has happened on a large time scale between different groups, living in different locations?

    Of course, the answer is obvious, but many people still deflect it, but I think that idea of a built-in collapse really forces the issue. Some day sooner or later, there will be a state that acknowledges IQ. And it might be really powerful compared to all the ones that don't.
  205. @songbird
    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    Yes, and that needs to end, so concern-trolling of the kind shown by Tyrion2 above (“It’s no wonder you’re not regarded as respectable when you don’t disavow all those nasty racists!”) has to be rejected. It’s still true that any political movement needs to set boundaries, one can’t just accept every crank who wants to promote his pet obsessions; but one should never accept the framing of debate set by one’s political opponents.

  206. @Hyperborean

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.


    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.
     
    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?


    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.


    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.
     
    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of 'our' men 'just in from the border' claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don't consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

  207. @utu
    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    I’m guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don’t know.

    It’s just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it’s one of the few forms of everyday “nationalism” that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from “above” to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn’t celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn’t even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it’s all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    • Replies: @utu
    Perhaps I should have told you that my other reaction to the flags when I was in Sweden in 1980s was some admiration that they were proud of being Swedish and of Sweden that they normalized 'flag waving' to the point it was not a big deal anymore.
  208. @utu
    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    To me, the flag used to be meaningful, but after 9/11 people started to put it up to use it to virtue signal support for the government or that they were against terrorism. And by now, the government has successfully subverted it, partly through mass immigration, to the point where it has close to no meaningful value.

    When I was a boy, we hung it up at a cottage in the countryside and an old vet walking down the street saluted it, even though he was about a 100 feet away, and it was a very sparsely populated place. I don’t think anyone would do that today.

    IMO, that is why they attacked the Confederate flag. Because the feds could not fly it, but it represented originalist values. All that is left is the Gadsden Flag, but flying a snake isn’t the same thing. They also take note of you, if you do.

    • Agree: utu
  209. @Hyperborean

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let’s call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That’s why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.
     
    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau's attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like 'the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood' in the pre-WWI Era.
    , @German_reader

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race
     
    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can't dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can't comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you'll just end up with another debate about "values".
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.
  210. @German_reader

    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.
     
    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?

    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of ‘our’ men ‘just in from the border’ claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don’t consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.
     
    But the real barbarians to some extent continued Roman legislation, e.g. much of what we still have of the Codex Theodosianus comes from this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary_of_Alaric
    Also the numerous law codes for barbarian peoples (clearly in imitation of Roman models). So the point is rather imo that the barbarians are going to take over legislation.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered
     
    I think that's a misinterpretation, "loaded with titles" refers to the scroll that is to be given to the barbarian leaders. Barbarian leaders often sought imperial service and some kind of official Roman title, e.g. iirc Alaric was magister militum at some point.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.
     
    Yes, maybe the ending could be interpreted like that (dissolution of the boundary between civilized and barbarian?), I admit I find it quite enigmatic.
  211. @German_reader

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.

    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.
     
    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced "Holocaust revisionism" now as well...), but I don't think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The "free speech" reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion's arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse "customers", just not to hurt Iran's feelings...that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).
  212. @Hyperborean
    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.


    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.
     
    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?


    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.


    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.
     
    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of 'our' men 'just in from the border' claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don't consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    But the real barbarians to some extent continued Roman legislation, e.g. much of what we still have of the Codex Theodosianus comes from this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary_of_Alaric
    Also the numerous law codes for barbarian peoples (clearly in imitation of Roman models). So the point is rather imo that the barbarians are going to take over legislation.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered

    I think that’s a misinterpretation, “loaded with titles” refers to the scroll that is to be given to the barbarian leaders. Barbarian leaders often sought imperial service and some kind of official Roman title, e.g. iirc Alaric was magister militum at some point.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    Yes, maybe the ending could be interpreted like that (dissolution of the boundary between civilized and barbarian?), I admit I find it quite enigmatic.

  213. @Hyperborean

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    One way to look at Cafavy’s poem (I like it a lot) is that it describes a society that has reached a post-history stage. No ideology, no action or ambition, can even pretend to fix anything. There are no solutions because everything has been tried and found wanting. All that is left is a violent reset to restart the process.

    It is a historical analogy to Wittgenstein’s climb up a tree, ever higher to ever thinner branches, until at the end he is stuck on the thinnest, most remote small branch, with no way forward or back. At that point all that is left is to saw off the branch.

    We are not there, yet. What we see are that large groups have accepted the usual combination of ennui and greed and are consciously or absent-mindedly pushing our societies toward dissolution. Either bring in the barbarians or – even more crazy – let’s have a ‘revolution‘. The more unhinged among them connect the two.

    They are driven by determinism of their own making. I am always struck by their last refuge when they lose an argument (they always lose) – ‘it is inevitable‘, ‘the mish-mash global utopia is here to stay, make the best out of it‘. There is an abandonment of free will. People abandon free will when all choices seem like they would make things worse.

  214. @iffen
    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced “Holocaust revisionism” now as well…), but I don’t think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The “free speech” reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion’s arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse “customers”, just not to hurt Iran’s feelings…that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    • Replies: @iffen
    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

  215. @German_reader

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    What’s the point of that rule?

    Lighten up. The rules are for military and Boy Scouts. Garrison Keillor touches on this issue when destroying Bernard-Henri Lévy’s pretentious book on America:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/on-the-road-avec-m-levy.html
    But every 10 pages or so, Lévy walks into a wall. About Old Glory, for example. Someone has told him about the rules for proper handling of the flag, and from these (the flag must not be allowed to touch the ground, must be disposed of by burning) he has invented an American flag fetish, a national obsession, a cult of flag worship. Somebody forgot to tell him that to those of us not currently enrolled in the Boy Scouts, these rules aren’t a big part of everyday life.

  216. @Anonymous lurker
    I'm guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don't know.

    It's just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it's one of the few forms of everyday "nationalism" that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from "above" to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn't celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn't even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it's all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    Perhaps I should have told you that my other reaction to the flags when I was in Sweden in 1980s was some admiration that they were proud of being Swedish and of Sweden that they normalized ‘flag waving’ to the point it was not a big deal anymore.

  217. @utu
    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.

    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau’s attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’ in the pre-WWI Era.

    • Replies: @utu

    Jewish proto-fascists
     
    Judaism is fascist.

    ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’
     
    It originally came form Judaism so it precedes National Socialist. The Chosen Race concept, obsession with purity, purity of blood, monolatry in German National Socialism were copied from Judaism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
    Italy was a source of ideological, historical and cultural inspiration for the Zionist Revisionists of the 1920s and 1930s.[3] The country under Mussolini was seen as a historical reminder of the roots of the Jewish people and as a contemporary example of a once glorious culture reclaiming its role in the world through the affirmation of power and national pride.

    Jabotinsky had been scheduled to meet Benito Mussolini as early as 1922, but for various reasons the meeting did not take place. However, in a letter to Mussolini, Jabotinsky attempted to win his support for the Zionist cause by arguing that for cultural reasons Italy's pro-Arab policy was misguided.[5] Jabotinsky predicted that Italy and the Arabs would inevitably come into conflict and that a Jewish state in the Middle East could act as a buffer between Europe, Asia and Africa
     
  218. @utu
    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race

    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can’t dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can’t comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you’ll just end up with another debate about “values”.
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    • Replies: @utu
    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.
  219. @German_reader

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.
     
    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced "Holocaust revisionism" now as well...), but I don't think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The "free speech" reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion's arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse "customers", just not to hurt Iran's feelings...that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    • Replies: @utu

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.
     
    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?
  220. @Hyperborean

    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.
     
    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau's attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like 'the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood' in the pre-WWI Era.

    Jewish proto-fascists

    Judaism is fascist.

    ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’

    It originally came form Judaism so it precedes National Socialist. The Chosen Race concept, obsession with purity, purity of blood, monolatry in German National Socialism were copied from Judaism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
    Italy was a source of ideological, historical and cultural inspiration for the Zionist Revisionists of the 1920s and 1930s.[3] The country under Mussolini was seen as a historical reminder of the roots of the Jewish people and as a contemporary example of a once glorious culture reclaiming its role in the world through the affirmation of power and national pride.

    Jabotinsky had been scheduled to meet Benito Mussolini as early as 1922, but for various reasons the meeting did not take place. However, in a letter to Mussolini, Jabotinsky attempted to win his support for the Zionist cause by arguing that for cultural reasons Italy’s pro-Arab policy was misguided.[5] Jabotinsky predicted that Italy and the Arabs would inevitably come into conflict and that a Jewish state in the Middle East could act as a buffer between Europe, Asia and Africa

  221. @German_reader

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race
     
    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can't dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can't comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you'll just end up with another debate about "values".
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.
     
    Some kind of "drastic solution" is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn't advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it's of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn't say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren't sufficient imo. I don't know what you mean by "culture", imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can't be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of "racism" anyway, because they claim that "culture" is merely a proxy for "race" (they already have concepts like "culturalism", "racism without races", Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).
  222. @iffen
    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    • Replies: @iffen
    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Apparently the difference between absolution and explanation is beyond your grasp.

    FWIW, I don’t believe Jews or anyone else need absolution for political views or ideology. In my younger years I leaned toward socialism, Marxism and Bolshevism. I still consider myself a leftist with regards to economic policy. In any case, if I had to choose between your anti-Semitic fascism and Bolshevism, I wouldn’t even have to think about it, comrade.
  223. @Mitleser

    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.
     

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.
     
    https://twitter.com/BorzoiBoskovic/status/1062141326752407553

    Turks have a very thin skin.

  224. @utu
    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.

    Some kind of “drastic solution” is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn’t advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it’s of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn’t say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren’t sufficient imo. I don’t know what you mean by “culture”, imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can’t be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of “racism” anyway, because they claim that “culture” is merely a proxy for “race” (they already have concepts like “culturalism”, “racism without races”, Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    • Replies: @utu
    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens...
  225. @German_reader

    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.
     
    Some kind of "drastic solution" is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn't advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it's of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn't say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren't sufficient imo. I don't know what you mean by "culture", imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can't be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of "racism" anyway, because they claim that "culture" is merely a proxy for "race" (they already have concepts like "culturalism", "racism without races", Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens…

    • Replies: @German_reader

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.
    , @AaronB

    State-level fascism hasn’t arrived yet, but our social elite has been preparing for it for decades. They are in no hurry to make it happen, but they will if they judge it to favor their interests. Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism– using racial resentments, religious bigotry, and the frank irrationality that emerges from stunted masculinity and (economically enforced) permanent adolescence? To ensure that, no matter what else happens during a populist uprising, they’ll have an easy time getting their money out of it. The upper class has convinced the rabble that generational wealth and connections– neither of which the rabble themselves have– are a right; meanwhile, leftists and racial minorities are a source of their misery.

    This society is set up so that, if such events come to pass, the most armed and ready militants will be on the right wing. Not only will this support the elite’s economic goals and keep the proletariat divided against itself, but it will also mean that any revolutionary effort is likely to be overcome by people with such repugnant ideological and cultural aims that they will never gain global sympathy. The upper class would rather have a 95 percent chance of a rightist-racist revolt that no one (present company included) would support than a 25 percent chance of a leftist revolt that would quickly gain global sympathy.
     

    - Michael O Church blog

    It is amusing to see all the ernest right wingers tell the Left that if they keep on practicing identity politics, whites will begin to also - as if the Left does not know this and want this.

  226. @utu
    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens...

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia

    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many “refugees” have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers’ money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    “Xenophobia” imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn’t likely to be successful. But one can’t and shouldn’t avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Xenophobia is such a strange word, in the way it is used today. It seems to bear no similarity to what I would consider its natural meaning: fear of foreign visitors, rather than foreign invaders.

    I don't think it is a word that fits much with modern European history. To be sure, nations had their antipathies and sometimes these were manifested in prejudices, but mostly between powers. I wouldn't even consider the Nazis to be xenophobic. At least, not in the same way that most of East Asia was xenophobic. Perhaps, the Soviet Union, under Stalin.

    Really the word that should be used today is "xenophilia", alongside other "philias" but the left only works in "phobias."
    , @iffen
    try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants

    I think that this is the wrong approach for those of us in the US and perhaps for you in Germany. In the US we would have to say that there cannot be further immigration from certain groups even if those certain groups are already here and are citizens. Simply put, I don’t believe that I have the right as a citizen, as a descendant of Scotch-Irish and Germans, to tell my fellow black Americans that we can’t have any more immigration from Africa, but immigrants from Ireland and Scotland are okay. It would be much easier to argue for a immigration hiatus across the board. Not because we don’t want certain groups coming in, or because certain groups can’t or won’t assimilate, but because of present economic conditions we need time to get our house in order before we can expect to be able to handle more immigrants.
    , @Beckow

    ...normalize the idea that not everybody is the same
     
    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete 'all are equal' idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent 'asylum laws' would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a 'soft landing' - to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and 'labor shortages'. They are going as far as planting false 'immigration freeze' stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed - they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools...
  227. @Hyperborean

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    That’s an interesting poem. I had not heard it before.

    I’m still hoping for DNA evidence of what happened. Might be that people were getting dumber, even without admixture.

    That seems to be happening now. The Flynn effect has peaked and started to reverse, even in real Europeans. And that is certainly an interesting phenomenon, as others like Cochran have pointed out, because to acknowledge it means that you are acknowledging that selection pressures can shape IQ. And if that happens on a small time scale, how much more likely is it that it has happened on a large time scale between different groups, living in different locations?

    Of course, the answer is obvious, but many people still deflect it, but I think that idea of a built-in collapse really forces the issue. Some day sooner or later, there will be a state that acknowledges IQ. And it might be really powerful compared to all the ones that don’t.

  228. @utu

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.
     
    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Apparently the difference between absolution and explanation is beyond your grasp.

    FWIW, I don’t believe Jews or anyone else need absolution for political views or ideology. In my younger years I leaned toward socialism, Marxism and Bolshevism. I still consider myself a leftist with regards to economic policy. In any case, if I had to choose between your anti-Semitic fascism and Bolshevism, I wouldn’t even have to think about it, comrade.

  229. @German_reader

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    Xenophobia is such a strange word, in the way it is used today. It seems to bear no similarity to what I would consider its natural meaning: fear of foreign visitors, rather than foreign invaders.

    I don’t think it is a word that fits much with modern European history. To be sure, nations had their antipathies and sometimes these were manifested in prejudices, but mostly between powers. I wouldn’t even consider the Nazis to be xenophobic. At least, not in the same way that most of East Asia was xenophobic. Perhaps, the Soviet Union, under Stalin.

    Really the word that should be used today is “xenophilia”, alongside other “philias” but the left only works in “phobias.”

  230. @German_reader

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants

    I think that this is the wrong approach for those of us in the US and perhaps for you in Germany. In the US we would have to say that there cannot be further immigration from certain groups even if those certain groups are already here and are citizens. Simply put, I don’t believe that I have the right as a citizen, as a descendant of Scotch-Irish and Germans, to tell my fellow black Americans that we can’t have any more immigration from Africa, but immigrants from Ireland and Scotland are okay. It would be much easier to argue for a immigration hiatus across the board. Not because we don’t want certain groups coming in, or because certain groups can’t or won’t assimilate, but because of present economic conditions we need time to get our house in order before we can expect to be able to handle more immigrants.

  231. @German_reader

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    …normalize the idea that not everybody is the same

    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete ‘all are equal‘ idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent ‘asylum laws’ would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a ‘soft landing’ – to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and ‘labor shortages’. They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed – they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools…

    • Replies: @German_reader

    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong
     
    Yes, that's indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.
     
    Indeed, that's what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).
  232. @Beckow

    ...normalize the idea that not everybody is the same
     
    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete 'all are equal' idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent 'asylum laws' would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a 'soft landing' - to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and 'labor shortages'. They are going as far as planting false 'immigration freeze' stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed - they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools...

    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong

    Yes, that’s indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.

    Indeed, that’s what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of 'heralds', and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

  233. @German_reader

    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong
     
    Yes, that's indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.
     
    Indeed, that's what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of ‘heralds’, and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    Western Europe is different, Pew says: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/29/east-west-divide-within-the-eu-on-issues-including-minorities-gay-marriage-and-national-identity/
  234. @Beckow
    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of 'heralds', and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the "Soviet freezer", which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).
  235. @Bardon Kaldian
    Western Europe is different, Pew says: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/29/east-west-divide-within-the-eu-on-issues-including-minorities-gay-marriage-and-national-identity/

    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the “Soviet freezer”, which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    • Replies: @Beckow

    'Soviet freezer'
     
    That would imply that 'freezing' a society is required to keep nations, families and cultures from disintegrating. I think that is too strong. West used its 'openness' as a weapon during the Cold War, and then the momentum just kept on going until we have reached the current unfolding demographic-economic-cultural disaster. In 20 years most of Western Europe will be unrecognizable.

    I don't see a way to reverse it. Or even manage it on the current level. West could become a hybrid civilization, something like most of Latin America. I am waiting for Faust played by an African and Pakistani Hamlet, a kind of a majestic f-u to the white culture. We are almost there.
  236. @German_reader
    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the "Soviet freezer", which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    ‘Soviet freezer’

    That would imply that ‘freezing‘ a society is required to keep nations, families and cultures from disintegrating. I think that is too strong. West used its ‘openness‘ as a weapon during the Cold War, and then the momentum just kept on going until we have reached the current unfolding demographic-economic-cultural disaster. In 20 years most of Western Europe will be unrecognizable.

    I don’t see a way to reverse it. Or even manage it on the current level. West could become a hybrid civilization, something like most of Latin America. I am waiting for Faust played by an African and Pakistani Hamlet, a kind of a majestic f-u to the white culture. We are almost there.

  237. @Beckow
    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of 'Russia'. He projects most evil in the world on Russia - now and even in the future. He talks about having once 'had a certain idea of Russia', he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don't want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    Yes, this is his id speaking. Russia arouses some deep-seated rage in him, but the rage is so wildly disproportionate to what is actually there that he is forced to accuse it of everything under the sun.

  238. Tyrion 2 has a human controller – unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel – and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Actually, I think that it is you and Ty who are similar in your comments.

    this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    We know that Jews are over-represented in the elites; you don’t need to tell us that. Many here are alarmed by that fact. I am not (not yet, anyway.) As I stated in my previous comment, Jews are over-represented in the fraction of the elites that are hostile to normal nationalism. The proportion of non-Jewish elites that are hostile to nationalism is smaller than the proportion of Jewish elites that are hostile as per their respective bases. IOW, Jewish elites are more likely than non-Jewish elites to be hostile to nationalism. The most likely explanation for this is because they are Jews.

    , @songbird
    JK Rowling shouldn't really be a surprise. There's not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn't need to, so he won't. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don't know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.
    , @German_reader

    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.
     
    I think that party has already broken apart...it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn't much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn't be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let's not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world's ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there's also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there'll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn't be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.
  239. @melanf

    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe
     
    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    Lol, but you would prefer to read books of the bestselling authors?

    By the way in their political views, there is little difference. I just researched that J.K. Rowling (who earns millions of dollars in Russia each year) believes that Trump is controlled by Putin.

  240. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with “Fujishock” , restoring the country’s economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It’s emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    This is one of those questions I can't answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I've read most "classics" & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows...

    b) contemporary fiction writers don't have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they're too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they "break" taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven't seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don't believe their characters, dialogs, ... life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he's a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don't mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers - but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

  241. @Epigon
    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug’s dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today’s elite was yesterday’s elite, which was yesteryear’s elite, and so on …

    * I’m looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    • Replies: @iffen
    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking

    Don't be dissin' our ancestors like this.

    , @Epigon
    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR - and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread - explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.
  242. @reiner Tor
    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    For the record, so is Tomas Tranströmer, whom Dmitry cited above as one of three Nobel laureates not to sign the letter.

  243. @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    Actually, I think that it is you and Ty who are similar in your comments.

    this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    We know that Jews are over-represented in the elites; you don’t need to tell us that. Many here are alarmed by that fact. I am not (not yet, anyway.) As I stated in my previous comment, Jews are over-represented in the fraction of the elites that are hostile to normal nationalism. The proportion of non-Jewish elites that are hostile to nationalism is smaller than the proportion of Jewish elites that are hostile as per their respective bases. IOW, Jewish elites are more likely than non-Jewish elites to be hostile to nationalism. The most likely explanation for this is because they are Jews.

  244. @Swedish Family

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
     

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug's dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today's elite was yesterday's elite, which was yesteryear's elite, and so on ...

    * I'm looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking

    Don’t be dissin’ our ancestors like this.

  245. @Yevardian
    They really aren't though. How is making this (false) distinction different from 'but it wasn't "real Communism!', exactly?

    I’m not sure how writing it like it is a text file extension, changes meaning either.

    The terminology “neoliberal”, was useful to clarify later 20th century ideologies based in the historic 19th century knowledge and views of “classical liberalism”.

    People introduced this clarification because a meaning of “liberal” was changed in the early 20th century to refer only as a kind of moderate socialism with permissive social views.

    Thinkers of “neoliberalism” are Hayek, Friedman, et al. Although the terminology “classical liberal” may be less corrupted by propaganda.

    Hayek indeed believed in some European economic federalism. But this is not a superstate ideology which EU was actually following.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Hayek was also most associated with Margaret Thatcher, who opposed immigration to the UK.

  246. @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    JK Rowling shouldn’t really be a surprise. There’s not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn’t need to, so he won’t. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don’t know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

  247. @Anonymous lurker
    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    This is all true. I will add only that our Swedish flag is sensitive to context. Sporting a T-shirt with a Swedish flag on it is not the done thing, nor is having a Swedish flag as your avatar on social media, but flying it on holidays is fine, and so is any display of it abroad. I’m speaking of the major cities here. Small-towners are more accepting.

    Overall, you find far less flag-waving here than in Eastern Europe*. I think this is because flag rituals are first of all a young country’s game. When your nation has had its own state for centuries, these overt expressions of fealty feel a little desperate.

    * Fewer EU flags too. The Baltics especially are swimming in them. Things that make you go hmm.

  248. @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn’t be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let’s not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world’s ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there’s also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there’ll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn’t be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.
  249. @Tyrion 2
    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    “Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.”

    The jew cries out in pain as he orders you to stop noticing.

  250. @German_reader

    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.
     
    I think that party has already broken apart...it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn't much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn't be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let's not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world's ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there's also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there'll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn't be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.

    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    It seems unfortunate.
     
    Not really. They were a bunch of incompetent losers, no political skill at all, and desperate for respectability (which is futile, the political establishment in Germany doesn't play fair, they'll always try to crush any serious opposition, no matter how often you disavow the supposed extremists in your party).
    , @Hyperborean

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.
     
    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.
     
    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don't seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don't quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.
  251. @Dmitry

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    It seems unfortunate.

    Not really. They were a bunch of incompetent losers, no political skill at all, and desperate for respectability (which is futile, the political establishment in Germany doesn’t play fair, they’ll always try to crush any serious opposition, no matter how often you disavow the supposed extremists in your party).

  252. @songbird
    JK Rowling shouldn't really be a surprise. There's not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn't need to, so he won't. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don't know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    JK Rowling

    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that’s why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    • Replies: @German_reader

    she is the bestselling writer in Russia
     
    Would be better if Russians wrote their own children's literature, that Harry Potter trash needs to go.
    , @Dmitry

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

     

    Although there was also her threat of lawsuit against Dmitry Emets, for the derivative Tanya Grotter series.
    , @Hyperborean

    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.
     
    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don't think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).
     
    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.
  253. @Dmitry
    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with "Fujishock" , restoring the country's economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It's emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    This is one of those questions I can’t answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I’ve read most “classics” & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows…

    b) contemporary fiction writers don’t have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they’re too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they “break” taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven’t seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don’t believe their characters, dialogs, … life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he’s a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don’t mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers – but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    . I ceased to read fiction some time ago
     
    In my situation - it seems more that I have lost my attention for reading long books. And the reason is probably laptops, ipads and iphones.

    I can still work and study fine - but it's easier now in interactive way. While reading a novel requires you to receive information passively for so many hours.

    Another barrier, is when you try to learn new languages and then refuse to read translations. Now if I would try to read Vargas Llosa, I would only do it in the Spanish language, where my vocabulary is quite weak (so I would be with the online dictionary half the time).

    Your view of him may a bit unfair, however. He published this book La civilización del espectáculo - which is apparently very critical of modern art.

    https://www.amazon.com/civilizaci%C3%B3n-del-espect%C3%A1culo-Spanish-ebook/dp/B007T8Y6XS/

  254. @Dmitry

    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    she is the bestselling writer in Russia

    Would be better if Russians wrote their own children’s literature, that Harry Potter trash needs to go.

  255. @Dmitry

    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Although there was also her threat of lawsuit against Dmitry Emets, for the derivative Tanya Grotter series.

  256. @Bardon Kaldian
    This is one of those questions I can't answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I've read most "classics" & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows...

    b) contemporary fiction writers don't have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they're too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they "break" taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven't seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don't believe their characters, dialogs, ... life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he's a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don't mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers - but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    . I ceased to read fiction some time ago

    In my situation – it seems more that I have lost my attention for reading long books. And the reason is probably laptops, ipads and iphones.

    I can still work and study fine – but it’s easier now in interactive way. While reading a novel requires you to receive information passively for so many hours.

    Another barrier, is when you try to learn new languages and then refuse to read translations. Now if I would try to read Vargas Llosa, I would only do it in the Spanish language, where my vocabulary is quite weak (so I would be with the online dictionary half the time).

    Your view of him may a bit unfair, however. He published this book La civilización del espectáculo – which is apparently very critical of modern art.

  257. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    How exactly is The Guardian socialistic? Are they advocating for the nationalisation of the banks? The breaking up of monopolies? Workers’ control of industry? A radical redistribution of wealth?

    Or do they advocate for identity politics and globalism, both of which are antithetical to socialism?

  258. @Dmitry

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    This is what I am saying. For example, G