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Ooh, scary.

, , , , and 25 others

Other signatories: Vassilis Alexakis (Athens), Svetlana Alexievich (Minsk), Anne Applebaum (Warsaw), Jens Christian Grøndahl (Copenhagen), David Grossman (Jerusalem), Ágnes Heller (Budapest), Ismaïl Kadaré (Tirana), György Konrád (Debrecen), António Lobo Antunes (Lisbon), Claudio Magris (Trieste), Ian McEwan (London), Adam Michnik (Warsaw), Herta Müller (Berlin), Ludmila Oulitskaïa (Moscow), Rob Riemen (Amsterdam), Fernando Savater (San Sebastián), Roberto Saviano (Naples), Eugenio Scalfari (Rome), Simon Schama (London), Peter Schneider (Berlin), Abdulah Sidran (Sarajevo), Leïla Slimani (Paris), Colm Tóibín (Dublin), Mario Vargas Llosa (Madrid), Adam Zagajewski (Cracow)

dis gon b gud

Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

“Wrecking” was the term used under Stalinism to designate scapegoats for the failure of projects that were unrealistic to begin with.

One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich, a talentless novelist who used to write glowing odes to Soviet secret police founder Felix Dzerzhinsky before bashing Russia became more handshakeworthy.

“Enough of ‘building Europe’!” is the cry. Let’s reconnect instead with our “national soul”! Let’s rediscover our “lost identity”! This is the agenda shared by the populist forces washing over the continent. Never mind that abstractions such as “soul” and “identity” often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

Just to clarify what these people mean by identity: “BHL” is the guy who feels closer to an Afghan than a French FN voter.

The continent is vulnerable to the increasingly brazen meddling by the occupant of the Kremlin. Europe as an idea is falling apart before our eyes.

Of course, in their world, Obama visiting Britain to campaign against Brexit is not “meddling,” let alone “brazen.”

For those who still believe in the legacy of Erasmus, Dante, Goethe and Comenius there will be only ignominious defeat. A politics of disdain for intelligence and culture will have triumphed. There will be explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism. Disaster will have befallen us.

I think this is pretty problematic. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every free man and woman on the planet.

Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

This is presumably what they mean by carrying “the torch of Europe.” They carry said torch, toss it on woodpiles, then blame Russians and Nazis (but I repeat myself) for the resulting arson.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Europe, Neoliberalism, Western Hypocrisy 
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  1. We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn’t stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and ‘elite whites’ don’t suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

    Don’t forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.

    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate ‘normative’ European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    Replies: @Ender, @Hyperborean, @Beckow

    , @szopen
    @Hyperborean


    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

    , @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    It's a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany's president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt
     
    "A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world."

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There's also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn't matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our "values").
    There's also the European dimension of course...I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves "European patriots", it's supposed to mean "patriots of Europe" (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    , @Pericles
    @Hyperborean


    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

     

    I'm happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland's adopted black sons.
  2. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise signatories/Guardians’ objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. Ominous.

  3. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Bies Podkrakowski


    It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?
     
    Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @neutral
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.

  4. @Bies Podkrakowski
    Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way - all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @neutral

    It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Hyperborean

    "Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds"

    Ian McEwan lived abroad til he was 12. "I grew up in a Muslim country – Libya – and have only warm memories of a dignified, tolerant and hospitable Islamic culture" he said. Betrayal might be in the blood - his mother was unfaithful to her husband (who was posted abroad) and married McEwan's father (who she'd already had a child by and given it up for adoption) after her husband was killed (in combat if Wiki is to be believed - must have been Malaya).

    Colm Tóibín is an Irishman who's spent more time out of Ireland (mostly in US universities) than in it.

  5. Some of these people are rather funny:

    Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a “soulful bum”.

    In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.

    [Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    @Hyperborean

    Soviet marranos, holy shit...why am I surprised, though?

  6. @Bies Podkrakowski
    Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way - all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @neutral

    One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.

  7. How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Dmitry

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Yevardian

    , @El Dato
    @Dmitry

    > socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

    > with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Calling Hayek and Friedman "neoliberal" is quite wrong.

    Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to "intervene" in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today "traditional liberals": People not into state economic control but not averse to "social" state intervention either:

    https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals


    The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an "ecumenical" undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

    ....

    The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence ... Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into "different groups and clans." He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about "the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )" who were sometimes called the "old conservatives." The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

    ...

    During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek's side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises's eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.
     

    , @Swedish Family
    @Dmitry


    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.
     
    The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

    We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest's second law ("Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing") but perfectly illustrates the third ("The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies").
    , @dfordoom
    @Dmitry


    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian
     
    How exactly is The Guardian socialistic? Are they advocating for the nationalisation of the banks? The breaking up of monopolies? Workers' control of industry? A radical redistribution of wealth?

    Or do they advocate for identity politics and globalism, both of which are antithetical to socialism?
  8. anon[241] • Disclaimer says:

    Vargas Llosa is that writer who once condemned the American invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but then he became enamored of it, because being anti-war was a “fascist” thing and went on to enthusiastically defend the American occupation of Baghdad after an Intourist-style tour organized by the US military. This writer no longer deserves any respect after that.

  9. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @szopen, @German_reader, @Pericles

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin’s articles.

    • Replies: @Ender
    @Dmitry

    Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?

    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    Replies: @Ender, @Dmitry

    , @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor, @LH

  10. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @El Dato, @Swedish Family, @dfordoom

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What's the difference?

    , @Yevardian
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They really aren't though. How is making this (false) distinction different from 'but it wasn't "real Communism!', exactly?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  11. Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @neutral
    @DFH

    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it - but not jews.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @Hyperborean
    @DFH


    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     
    I haven't gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.
    , @songbird
    @DFH

    I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don't know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

    If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.

    , @reiner Tor
    @DFH

    Ágnes Heller, too.

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @DFH

    Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?

  12. Well, if an Indian like Salman Rushdie can get behind the idea of the EU – actually WTF! That’s pretty messed up. He should return to India and campaign for a united India.

  13. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Replies: @neutral, @Hyperborean, @songbird, @reiner Tor, @Mr. XYZ

    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it – but not jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @neutral

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

  14. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Replies: @neutral, @Hyperborean, @songbird, @reiner Tor, @Mr. XYZ

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    I haven’t gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.

  15. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @szopen, @German_reader, @Pericles

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    @szopen

    The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.

  16. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    Replies: @Ender, @Hyperborean, @Beckow

    Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?

  17. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    Replies: @Ender, @Hyperborean, @Beckow

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    […]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB’s demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l’horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary ‘centrist’ parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    • Replies: @Ender
    @Hyperborean

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

  18. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    Replies: @Ender, @Dmitry

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Ender


    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?
     
    Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d'interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.
  19. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Replies: @neutral, @Hyperborean, @songbird, @reiner Tor, @Mr. XYZ

    I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don’t know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

    If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.

  20. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Replies: @neutral, @Hyperborean, @songbird, @reiner Tor, @Mr. XYZ

    Ágnes Heller, too.

  21. @Ender
    @Hyperborean

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d’interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.

  22. Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Literally an open admission that these reptiles are soulless, rootless cosmopolitans.
    Worthless scum.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, Per/Norway
  23. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    [...]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

     

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB's demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l'horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary 'centrist' parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    Replies: @Ender, @Dmitry

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).
     
    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

    Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the "Fujishock" economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

  24. @szopen
    @Hyperborean


    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

    The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.

  25. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    I haven't read books from any of authors' writings either, which is why I wasn't sure. I don't have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

    But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

    I've even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

    As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.


    -

    Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

    The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

  26. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Dmitry

    He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

    Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the “Fujishock” economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

  27. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).
     
    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I haven’t read books from any of authors’ writings either, which is why I wasn’t sure. I don’t have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

    But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

    I’ve even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

    As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.

    Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

    The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

  28. Antonio Lobo Antunes: Let me be very clear. For me geography does not exist! I strongly object to the whole concept of “foreign literature”…and speaking of national identity: that is how dictatorships get started!

    […]

    Where does one find good literature today? Mostly in third world countries, because adversity, isolation, combat provide good working conditions. It is harder to be a good writer in a so-called “civilized” country, in the so-called “democracies.”

    […]

    Rail: You must be aware that you are considered a difficult author. If one opens a page of this last “novel,” the typographic arrangement, the rhythm, the music of the text seem very close to poetry. The switching among narrative voices, the slipping between first and third person, the associative collages, the dilating and contracting of time, all contribute to the richness of the text. A critic has called your style “barely legible.” Does this disturb you?

    https://brooklynrail.org/2008/11/books/geography-it-doesnt-exist-antonio-lobo-antunes-with-alessandro-cassin

  29. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

    iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their “secular humanism”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    I don't think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

    It's more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

  30. will the yentas ever learn?

  31. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @szopen, @German_reader, @Pericles

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany’s president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt

    “A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world.”

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There’s also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn’t matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our “values”).
    There’s also the European dimension of course…I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves “European patriots”, it’s supposed to mean “patriots of Europe” (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @German_reader


    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2, @Hyperborean

  32. They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

    , @songbird
    @songbird

    Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

    I 'm thinking specifically of Langston Hughes - gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

    I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don't write much and aren't often celebrated for their gayness.

  33. @neutral
    @DFH

    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it - but not jews.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @neutral

    , @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  34. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    I guess Erasmus counts

    They probably just referenced him because of the EU’s Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I’ve never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @German_reader

    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage


    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”
     

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    Replies: @songbird

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    I was thinking that was why they included Goethe - his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

    Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There's a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.

  35. @songbird
    They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

    I ‘m thinking specifically of Langston Hughes – gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

    I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don’t write much and aren’t often celebrated for their gayness.

  36. @German_reader
    @songbird


    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @songbird
    @DFH

    Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

    I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.

  37. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @neutral

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

    It’s 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral’s Nazi-like views that “the international Jew” is behind everything aren’t convincing imo, but I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on “the lessons of Auschwitz” (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to “the Bosnian genocide” or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn’t be surprising though that it’s likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Epigon, @melanf

    , @neutral
    @German_reader


    aren’t convincing
     
    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  38. @Tyrion 2
    @neutral

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    Replies: @German_reader, @DFH

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Replies: @DFH, @fredyetagain aka superhonky

  39. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @neutral

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

     

    And checking on Wikipedia - even their composition 1/3 Jewish.
    , @Epigon
    @Dmitry

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe
     
    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  40. @German_reader

    Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.
     
    iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their "secular humanism".

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

    It’s more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

  41. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Epigon, @melanf

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    And checking on Wikipedia – even their composition 1/3 Jewish.

  42. @Hyperborean
    Some of these people are rather funny:

    Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a "soulful bum".
     

    In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.
     

    [Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.
     

    Replies: @WHAT

    Soviet marranos, holy shit…why am I surprised, though?

  43. I haven’t read him, but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama’s book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry’s earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin


    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yevardian

    , @Tyrion 2
    @Anatoly Karlin

    If one were to design a person who'd be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it'd be a replica of Simon Schama.

  44. German_reader says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I haven't read him, but isn't Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama's book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry's earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe

    I think he’s mostly known for speaking out against Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven’t read him either though (and don’t intend to), can’t comment on his literary merits.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    , @Yevardian
    @German_reader

    I've only read Kar (Snow), was a passable (if humorless like most Turkish literature) middlebrow novel, didn't strike me as overly political or preachy. He frequently oversteps the line between 'homage' and outright lifting famous passages from other Turkish writers though.

  45. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don't get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You'd be surrounded by your own people and wouldn't have to feel lonely. You're free to leave any time.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    @Tyrion 2

    "Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile."

    The jew cries out in pain as he orders you to stop noticing.

  46. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Replies: @DFH, @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don’t get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You’d be surrounded by your own people and wouldn’t have to feel lonely. You’re free to leave any time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader, @Per/Norway

  47. @Anatoly Karlin
    I haven't read him, but isn't Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama's book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry's earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2

    If one were to design a person who’d be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it’d be a replica of Simon Schama.

  48. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don't get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You'd be surrounded by your own people and wouldn't have to feel lonely. You're free to leave any time.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    If you didn’t make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    If Jews weren't 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn't complain about them and their political views so much.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there's no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @Per/Norway
    @Tyrion 2

    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  49. @German_reader
    @songbird


    I guess Erasmus counts
     
    They probably just referenced him because of the EU's Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I've never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    Replies: @DFH, @songbird

    I was thinking that was why they included Goethe – his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

    Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There’s a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.

  50. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader, @Per/Norway

    If Jews weren’t 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn’t complain about them and their political views so much.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    1. They're not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Replies: @DFH

  51. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader, @Per/Norway

    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there’s no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Why?

    Replies: @German_reader

  52. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    -

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin's articles.

    Replies: @Ender, @Hyperborean, @Beckow

    …Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    Really? I don’t think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms – a ‘cosmopolitan’ plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that’s just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: ‘and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin…‘. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person – he literally just follows the food.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Beckow

    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu, @Swedish Family

    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.

    , @LH
    @Beckow


    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.
     
    This is true, also due to his own choice. He does not allow translations of his (French written) books to the Czech language.
  53. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    If Jews weren't 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn't complain about them and their political views so much.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    1. They’re not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).


    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.
     
    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  54. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    It's 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral's Nazi-like views that "the international Jew" is behind everything aren't convincing imo, but I don't think you can deny that there's special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on "the lessons of Auschwitz" (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to "the Bosnian genocide" or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn't be surprising though that it's likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @neutral

    aren’t convincing

    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @neutral

    It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you'd still be pretending it is all about the Jews.

  55. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there's no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Why?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded "bigotry" (repellent to every moral person) and we're all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  56. @neutral
    @German_reader


    aren’t convincing
     
    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you’d still be pretending it is all about the Jews.

  57. @DFH
    @German_reader

    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage


    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”
     

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    Replies: @songbird

    Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

    I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.

  58. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor, @LH

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera’s the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera’s books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera’s famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I’m not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Dmitry

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    Replies: @El Dato, @reiner Tor

    , @utu
    @Dmitry

    Milan Kundera 'was an informant to Czech secret police'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6399364/Milan-Kundera-was-an-informant-to-Czech-secret-police.html

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Swedish Family
    @Dmitry


    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.
     
    Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera's popularity in the West (I don't know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

    Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis' review of Don Quixote

    And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.
     
  59. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    1. They're not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Replies: @DFH

    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,
     
    No, it doesn't.

    Replies: @DFH

  60. Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @Dmitry

    And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you'll find no examples.

  61. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Why?

    Replies: @German_reader

    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded “bigotry” (repellent to every moral person) and we’re all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    Replies: @German_reader

  62. Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through ‘worst crisis since the 30’s‘ is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

    When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30’s!!!), their vocabulary – none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

    This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don’t have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn’t work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won’t fix that.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Beckow

    Agree.

    Especially with:


    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.
     

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.
     

    This is a sign of panic.
     
    The opponent's panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    Replies: @Beckow

  63. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded "bigotry" (repellent to every moral person) and we're all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of "Jews getting the best jobs" due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn't convincing.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  64. @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin


    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yevardian

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems – as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Beckow

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    I may have mentioned it before - I know it is tenuous - but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.

  65. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).


    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.
     
    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,

    No, it doesn’t.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     
    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn't insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  66. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,
     
    No, it doesn't.

    Replies: @DFH

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn’t insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    Replies: @DFH, @DFH

  67. @Dmitry
    Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you’ll find no examples.

  68. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    Replies: @German_reader

    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of “Jews getting the best jobs” due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    • Agree: iffen, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    You're confusing "Best job" as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the "most moral". Very few times do people refer to "best job" as the "most moral", normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

    This means my point was true.


    but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.
     
    I've never done that. Indeed, I've often done the opposite.
  69. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     
    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn't insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment…also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Mr. XYZ

    , @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It's a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  70. @Beckow
    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through 'worst crisis since the 30's' is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian - it suggest that they don't have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

    When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30's!!!), their vocabulary - none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

    This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don't have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn't work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won't fix that.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Agree.

    Especially with:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.

    This is a sign of panic.

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @peterAUS


    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.
     
    It also creates a very volatile environment - and that's what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30's!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    Replies: @peterAUS

  71. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems

    They’d say they’re only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @German_reader

    , @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people
     
    Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate - at this point - Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

    The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

    'brazen meddling by Kremlin' is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.
  72. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    Replies: @DFH, @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful

    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. ‘Anti-racist’ and ‘anti-fascist’ groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can’t ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    Replies: @DFH

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @DFH

    Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?

  73. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment...also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    Replies: @DFH, @DFH

    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It’s a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I'm not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn't the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I'd win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    Replies: @DFH

  74. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it's maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems - as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    I may have mentioned it before – I know it is tenuous – but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.

  75. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of "Jews getting the best jobs" due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn't convincing.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    You’re confusing “Best job” as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the “most moral”. Very few times do people refer to “best job” as the “most moral”, normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

    This means my point was true.

    but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    I’ve never done that. Indeed, I’ve often done the opposite.

  76. @Dmitry
    @Beckow

    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu, @Swedish Family

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don’t think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes – people project on him.

    I can’t control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don’t see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Beckow


    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.
     
    I only read Kundera's "The Joke" back in the Cold War. Can't remember much but I don't think there was sex.

    However, BHL's early work "Le Diable en Tête" fits your description well. I don't really remember much, but it was like Portnoy's Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.
    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    I also liked Kafka back then, too.

  77. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It's a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    I’m not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised
     
    'My behaviour' was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as 'vile'.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)
     
    I'm not really sure what 'maximising citizenship value' is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

     

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn't make him British.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  78. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Mr. XYZ

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

     

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  79. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Beckow

    It’s acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of “dog whistle” in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world’s most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @Dmitry

    I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

  80. @peterAUS
    @Beckow

    Agree.

    Especially with:


    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.
     

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.
     

    This is a sign of panic.
     
    The opponent's panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    Replies: @Beckow

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Beckow


    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.
     
    Oh yes.....

    People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.
     
    Yep.

    I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.
     
    Yep.
    Two of us have "talked" about this a lot here. Don't know about you but, at my age, I'd definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
    "Cheerful" thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO.......30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?
     
    Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
    M.A.D.
  81. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @German_reader

    I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.

  82. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I'm not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn't the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I'd win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    Replies: @DFH

    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn’t make him British.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’
     
    No, I didn't. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

    The "vile" obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.
     
    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
     
    Why do you enjoy pretending that I'm not British?
  83. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    It's acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of "dog whistle" in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world's most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @German_reader

    Sure, it’s ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU’s self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader

    More than a scapegoat - they need an enemy.

    I really like the part about:


    ...EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice
     
    We see the famous 'mistakes were made' passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on 'cowardice'. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war...
    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see "doggy whistle" allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    Replies: @German_reader

  84. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    Replies: @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.
     
    What apologetics? Where?

    Replies: @DFH

  85. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

     

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    What apologetics? Where?

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:


    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  86. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems
     
    They'd say they're only against the "dictator" Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Beckow

    …only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people

    Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate – at this point – Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

    The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

    brazen meddling by Kremlin‘ is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.

  87. @Dmitry
    @Beckow

    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu, @Swedish Family

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Interesting.

  88. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

    More than a scapegoat – they need an enemy.

    I really like the part about:

    …EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice

    We see the famous ‘mistakes were made‘ passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on ‘cowardice‘. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war…

  89. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.
     
    What apologetics? Where?

    Replies: @DFH

    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    Replies: @DFH, @iffen

  90. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @El Dato, @Swedish Family, @dfordoom

    > socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

    > with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Calling Hayek and Friedman “neoliberal” is quite wrong.

    Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to “intervene” in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today “traditional liberals”: People not into state economic control but not averse to “social” state intervention either:

    https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals

    The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an “ecumenical” undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

    ….

    The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence … Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into “different groups and clans.” He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about “the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )” who were sometimes called the “old conservatives.” The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

    During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek’s side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises’s eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.

  91. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @El Dato, @Swedish Family, @dfordoom

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

    We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest’s second law (“Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing”) but perfectly illustrates the third (“The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies”).

  92. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.
     
    It's a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany's president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt
     
    "A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world."

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There's also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn't matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our "values").
    There's also the European dimension of course...I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves "European patriots", it's supposed to mean "patriots of Europe" (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    “I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.”
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand — that is to say, co-opt — nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Swedish Family


    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it's distinguished from "bad" nationalism, it doesn't have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate ("let's not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!").
    , @Tyrion 2
    @Swedish Family

    Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist - love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There's no need for love of country to support a nation state.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Swedish Family


    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    Replies: @utu

  93. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised
     
    'My behaviour' was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as 'vile'.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)
     
    I'm not really sure what 'maximising citizenship value' is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

     

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn't make him British.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’

    No, I didn’t. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.

    Why do you enjoy pretending that I’m not British?

  94. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:


    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.
     

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals. That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals
     
    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn's paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?
     
    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

     

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn't help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you'd view British nationalism through the lens of 'what's good with the Jews'.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

     

    I haven't 'threatened' anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

     

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @iffen
    @Tyrion 2

    probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

    Who is this "our side" of which you speak kemo sabe?

  95. German_reader says:
    @Swedish Family
    @German_reader


    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2, @Hyperborean

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it’s distinguished from “bad” nationalism, it doesn’t have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate (“let’s not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!”).

  96. @Dmitry
    @Beckow

    I'd guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera's the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera's books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera's famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I'm not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu, @Swedish Family

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera’s popularity in the West (I don’t know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

    Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis’ review of Don Quixote

    And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.

  97. @Swedish Family
    @German_reader


    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2, @Hyperborean

    Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist – love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There’s no need for love of country to support a nation state.

  98. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    Sure, it's ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU's self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see “doggy whistle” allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.
     
    I don't know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  99. Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn't look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they're embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @Anon 2
    @utu

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @German_reader

  100. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    Replies: @DFH, @iffen

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals

    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn’s paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you’d view British nationalism through the lens of ‘what’s good with the Jews’.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.
     
    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I'm just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don't care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?
     
    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.
     
    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.
     
    You forget the concept of "truth". What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    Replies: @DFH

  101. Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy’s name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy’s mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin’s Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I’ll come to his tirade in a moment, but let’s first have a look at Houellebecq’s warm feelings for Moscow.

    A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

    Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

    The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

    And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

    I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Swedish Family


    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.
     
    It's probably just part of his milieu, those "new philosophers" are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Anatoly Karlin

  102. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish - they were selected as intellectuals. That is not "an apologetic". Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn't do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    Replies: @DFH, @iffen

    probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

    Who is this “our side” of which you speak kemo sabe?

  103. @Beckow
    @peterAUS


    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.
     
    It also creates a very volatile environment - and that's what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30's!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.

    Oh yes…..

    People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.

    Yep.

    I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Yep.
    Two of us have “talked” about this a lot here. Don’t know about you but, at my age, I’d definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
    “Cheerful” thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO…….30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
    M.A.D.

  104. In a related article, the Guardian helpfully informs us that (my bold):

    The 800-word paean was drafted by the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals

    paean: A song of praise or thanksgiving; a shout or song of triumph, joy, or exultation. Also fig.: an expression of praise or admiration; a tribute (to something). [OED]

  105. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see "doggy whistle" allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    Replies: @German_reader

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    I don’t know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    On one level, they have to be intelligent - to construct the coherent work of literature.

    Of course, your point is true - talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

  106. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor, @LH

    I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.

  107. Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy’s reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet …

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Swedish Family


    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,
     
    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @songbird
    @Swedish Family

    "Stalin-Hitler combo" really makes me laugh.

    It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn't quite cross it.

    , @Beckow
    @Swedish Family

    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of 'Russia'. He projects most evil in the world on Russia - now and even in the future. He talks about having once 'had a certain idea of Russia', he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don't want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  108. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals
     
    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn's paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?
     
    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

     

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn't help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you'd view British nationalism through the lens of 'what's good with the Jews'.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

     

    I haven't 'threatened' anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

     

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I’m just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

     

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are 'going bezerk'

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

     

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.
     
    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

     

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it's only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

     

    What you wrote wasn't true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I've never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  109. @Swedish Family
    Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy's name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy's mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin's Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It's fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I'll come to his tirade in a moment, but let's first have a look at Houellebecq's warm feelings for Moscow.

    A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

    Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

    The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

    And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

    I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.
     

    Replies: @German_reader

    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.

    It’s probably just part of his milieu, those “new philosophers” are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @German_reader

    The "Gluck" became a unit of Russophobia on the Inosmi message boards around that time (mid-2000s). They would rate articles out of 10 Glucks.

    (Inosmi was the translation project to make foreign language articles accessible to Russians).


    I think I’ll be on commenting hiatus for the next few weeks
     
    Best of luck. We all appreciate your presence here, but IRL stuff should take precedence.
  110. Anonymous[200] • Disclaimer says:

    Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

    False dichotomy for one.

    Why would Europe “be destroyed”. How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US “recommendations” regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

    Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled “La Grande Peur des Bienpensants” (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

    It’s time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

    How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

    I found this for people who are into french:

    https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @Anonymous


    the wreckers will destroy it
     
    The wreckers will wreck...literary dreck.
  111. German_reader says:
    @utu
    Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    Replies: @German_reader, @Anon 2

    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn’t look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they’re embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran...what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We'll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    Replies: @German_reader

  112. @Beckow
    @Dmitry

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    Replies: @El Dato, @reiner Tor

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.

    I only read Kundera’s “The Joke” back in the Cold War. Can’t remember much but I don’t think there was sex.

    However, BHL’s early work “Le Diable en Tête” fits your description well. I don’t really remember much, but it was like Portnoy’s Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.

  113. @German_reader
    @Swedish Family


    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.
     
    It's probably just part of his milieu, those "new philosophers" are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Anatoly Karlin

    Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.

  114. @Anonymous

    Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it
     
    False dichotomy for one.

    Why would Europe "be destroyed". How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US "recommendations" regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

    Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled "La Grande Peur des Bienpensants" (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

    It's time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

    How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

    I found this for people who are into french:

    https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    the wreckers will destroy it

    The wreckers will wreck…literary dreck.

  115. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @Beckow

    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..
     
    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don't know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who 'defected' from Nashi.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  116. @German_reader
    @utu

    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn't look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they're embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We’ll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Tyrion 2, @utu

  117. @Beckow
    @Dmitry

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don't realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don't think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes - people project on him.

    I can't control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don't see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    Replies: @El Dato, @reiner Tor

    I also liked Kafka back then, too.

  118. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.
     
    I don't know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    On one level, they have to be intelligent – to construct the coherent work of literature.

    Of course, your point is true – talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

  119. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran...what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We'll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They’re only doing this, because they’re slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran’s theocratic system, but that doesn’t mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that’s what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Aren't we talking about allowing a conference?

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

    , @utu
    @German_reader

    they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.

  120. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @Beckow

    “Stalin-Hitler combo” really makes me laugh.

    It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn’t quite cross it.

  121. @utu
    @Dmitry

    Milan Kundera 'was an informant to Czech secret police'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6399364/Milan-Kundera-was-an-informant-to-Czech-secret-police.html

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Interesting.

  122. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Tyrion 2, @utu

    Aren’t we talking about allowing a conference?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  123. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Aren't we talking about allowing a conference?

    Replies: @German_reader

    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    They're bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Replies: @German_reader

  124. @Hyperborean

    We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.
     
    I thought this 'patriot vs nationalist' dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn't stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as 'soul' and 'identity' often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.
     
    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and 'elite whites' don't suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.
     
    Don't forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.
     
    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate 'normative' European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @szopen, @German_reader, @Pericles

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    I’m happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland’s adopted black sons.

  125. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Tyrion 2, @utu

    Here’s another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don't really understand your point.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    , @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    I don't give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who's of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I'm not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it's possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it's hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today's antiracism. And it's not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  126. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    They’re bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Should they ban criticism of Iran?
     
    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There's a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with "old" and "new Europe" during the Iraq war.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  127. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.
     
    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I'm just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don't care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?
     
    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.
     
    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.
     
    You forget the concept of "truth". What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    Replies: @DFH

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are ‘going bezerk’

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.
     
    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.
     
    It isn't harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?
     
    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.
     
    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It'd be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group's opinions.

    On the other hand, "systemic" racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway
     
    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from "public intellectuals". That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you'd just ignore those - confirmation bias sucks.

    Replies: @DFH

  128. @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don’t really understand your point.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?

  129. I’m mildly surprised that Salman Rushdie signed up for this, given that he was chased out of his adopted home country by migrants. It seems difficult memories fade.

    Kundera made his career from being oppressed by Soviet migrants. But that was a long time ago and in a different country. Still in the EU, though.

    Orhan Pamuk writes from a core piece of Europe forcibly occupied by migrants since 1453. Perhaps they should give it back.

    All in all, not a good showing by the literati.

  130. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Here's another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader

    I don’t give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who’s of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I’m not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it’s possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it’s hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today’s antiracism. And it’s not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    • Agree: iffen, DFH, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    I've never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I'll assume your motivations are malicious.

  131. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

     

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are 'going bezerk'

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.
     

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter
     
    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

     

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.
     
    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

     

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it's only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

     

    What you wrote wasn't true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I've never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    It isn’t harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    On the other hand, “systemic” racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from “public intellectuals”. That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those – confirmation bias sucks.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.
     
    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

     

    Lol, what does 'stealing' your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

     

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you're accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

     

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn't how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

     

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn't part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn't think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those
     
    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  132. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2

    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don't really understand your point.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?

  133. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?
     
    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They're only doing this, because they're slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran's theocratic system, but that doesn't mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that's what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Tyrion 2, @utu

    they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.

  134. @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    They're bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Replies: @German_reader

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There’s a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with “old” and “new Europe” during the Iraq war.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you're advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    Replies: @German_reader

  135. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2

    I don't give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who's of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I'm not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it's possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it's hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today's antiracism. And it's not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    I’ve never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I’ll assume your motivations are malicious.

  136. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Should they ban criticism of Iran?
     
    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There's a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with "old" and "new Europe" during the Iraq war.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you’re advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

  137. @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you're advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    Replies: @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    You've made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran's feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @iffen
    @German_reader

    I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.

  138. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

    You’ve made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you
     
    You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
    Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.
  139. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.
     
    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.
     
    It isn't harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?
     
    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.
     
    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It'd be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group's opinions.

    On the other hand, "systemic" racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway
     
    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from "public intellectuals". That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you'd just ignore those - confirmation bias sucks.

    Replies: @DFH

    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Lol, what does ‘stealing’ your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn’t how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn’t part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn’t think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then
     
    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems...zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.
     
    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you're accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!
     
    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it'd be strange if they weren't a third of signatories to this letter.

    Replies: @DFH

  140. “We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught”

    what is this nonsensical sentence.

    i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that’s really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

    “Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it”. that’s impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is “That’s not who we are”. still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

    invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn’t devised by leftists.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @prime noticer

    It is one the same level as Soros' attitude towards China.


    Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

    Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.
     

    China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.
     
    https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

    Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?
  141. @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.
     
    That's idiotic.
    You're either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

    I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.

  142. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    You've made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran's feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you

    You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
    Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.

    • LOL: DFH
    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  143. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    If you didn't make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

    Replies: @DFH, @German_reader, @Per/Norway

    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Per/Norway


    want the occupiers to leave Palestine
     
    Please don't. Let's keep them in their designated places. The world won't survive another diaspora.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  144. @prime noticer
    "We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught"

    what is this nonsensical sentence.

    i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that's really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

    "Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it". that's impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is "That's not who we are". still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

    invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn't devised by leftists.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    It is one the same level as Soros’ attitude towards China.

    Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

    Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.

    China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.

    https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

    Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?

  145. @DFH
    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Replies: @neutral, @Hyperborean, @songbird, @reiner Tor, @Mr. XYZ

    Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?

  146. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Dmitry

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Yevardian

    What’s the difference?

  147. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful
     
    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. 'Anti-racist' and 'anti-fascist' groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can't ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @Mr. XYZ

    Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?

  148. @Swedish Family
    Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy's reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet ...

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.
     

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird, @Beckow

    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don’t want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Beckow


    What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.
     
    Yes, this is his id speaking. Russia arouses some deep-seated rage in him, but the rage is so wildly disproportionate to what is actually there that he is forced to accuse it of everything under the sun.
  149. The string ‘Tyrion 2’ pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    • Replies: @Ender
    @utu

    Hasbarafl ftw?

    , @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    Replies: @iffen

  150. Nietzsche spoke of the “gravediggers burying God” in The Gay Science. Today, we’ve become the “gravediggers of the European idea” instead. Is this conscious or unconscious self-parody? Are all these educated signatories aware that they’ve put “the European idea” in place of God?

  151. @Dmitry
    @Swedish Family


    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,
     
    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don’t know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who ‘defected’ from Nashi.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Lol "Putinjugend". Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

    The "Nashi" summer camp, looked fun in a weird way - they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

    Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

    She had bags of money - presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
    https://i.imgur.com/nvykB5V.jpg

    The weird thing - the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.
    https://i.imgur.com/AglLaCh.jpg

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  152. @utu
    The string 'Tyrion 2' pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    Replies: @Ender, @reiner Tor

    Hasbarafl ftw?

  153. @Swedish Family
    @German_reader


    "I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing."
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse
     
    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand -- that is to say, co-opt -- nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Tyrion 2, @Hyperborean

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    • Replies: @utu
    @Hyperborean

    I rarely saw Swedish flags - I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    Replies: @Anonymous lurker

  154. @Hyperborean
    @Swedish Family


    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.
     
    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    Replies: @utu

    I rarely saw Swedish flags – I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    • Replies: @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    Replies: @utu, @Hyperborean, @Swedish Family

  155. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..
     
    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don't know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who 'defected' from Nashi.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Lol “Putinjugend”. Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

    The “Nashi” summer camp, looked fun in a weird way – they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

    Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

    She had bags of money – presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
    The weird thing – the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Dmitry

    TIL Potupchik is a Jewess. Is that really true? Amazed I haven't come across that. Would have thought it'd get mentioned in nationalist circles...

    Replies: @Dmitry

  156. @Per/Norway
    @Tyrion 2

    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    want the occupiers to leave Palestine

    Please don’t. Let’s keep them in their designated places. The world won’t survive another diaspora.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @anonymous coward

    Won't survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?

  157. @anonymous coward
    @Per/Norway


    want the occupiers to leave Palestine
     
    Please don't. Let's keep them in their designated places. The world won't survive another diaspora.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Won’t survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?

  158. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the signatories appear to be
    urban intellectuals, i.e., people who spend a disproportionate amount
    of time sitting in warm well-lit rooms staring at screens, writing, and
    talking. Is this something we’re supposed to admire? The highest ideal
    to aspire to?

    Consider these three great individuals: the Buddha, Socrates, and Jesus.
    None of them wrote books, none of them were rich (Buddha was born into
    wealth but rejected it), and none of them were famous (except locally)
    or sought fame during their lifetimes. Many people try to follow in the
    footsteps of the Buddha and/or Jesus. Hence they will sympathize with
    Thomas Aquinas, the founder of rational theology who married Christianity
    to Aristotle, who in 1273, after undergoing profound mystical experiences,
    said, “It’s all straw” (referring to his writings). Or with Terence McKenna,
    the American psychonaut who said “Culture is not your friend” or “Television
    is by nature the dominator drug par excellence” (not that I agree with him on
    everything).

    Perhaps countries such as China or India that are still trying to make
    the leap from the pre-modern to modern stage need more intellectuals
    but the West is now resolutely in the postmodern stage (Cf. Lyotard’s 1979
    definition, “I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives),
    effectively marking the end of the Enlightenment Project and its
    universalistic claims. One thing the West doesn’t need is more
    intellectuals – the latter serve the interests of the materialistic
    ruling class (with their “Let them eat cake” attitude) anyway, not
    realizing that the people are increasingly disillusioned with science,
    technology, and modernity in general. Return to Europe’s pagan roots
    (albeit on a more sophisticated level where the gods and goddesses are
    interpreted as Jungian archetypes), and to localisms and regionalisms
    are some aspects of the growing populist rejection of the globalist
    elites. The intellect has failed us, and hence what we need more of is growth
    in awareness and in emotional intelligence. As always, following Aristotle and
    the Buddha (The Middle Way), everything in moderation – we need not
    reject the intellect completely but there is certainly no reason to worship it.

  159. @utu
    Israel to host 4 Central European leaders, including Hungary’s Orban
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-host-4-central-european-leaders-including-hungarys-orban/

    Replies: @German_reader, @Anon 2

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Anon 2


    Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.
     
    https://brodude.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/brodude.ru_28.03.2014_0UCbzQD15IDii.jpg

    I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

    , @utu
    @Anon 2

    Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?

    , @German_reader
    @Anon 2


    Can
    the Germans,
     
    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they've been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn't that profound.
    As for Poland's "close relationship" to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.

    Replies: @Anon 2

  160. @Anon 2
    @utu

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @German_reader

    Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.


    I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

  161. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.
     
    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

     

    Lol, what does 'stealing' your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

     

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you're accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

     

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn't how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

     

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn't part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn't think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those
     
    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    • Replies: @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

     

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

     

    ??????? You said that Jews were 'massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia', who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

     

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  162. @utu
    The string 'Tyrion 2' pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    Replies: @Ender, @reiner Tor

    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:


    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.
     
    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….
     
    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    Replies: @German_reader

  163. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH


    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then
     
    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems...zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.
     
    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you're accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!
     
    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it'd be strange if they weren't a third of signatories to this letter.

    Replies: @DFH

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    ??????? You said that Jews were ‘massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia’, who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I'll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn't happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don't think you'll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You're the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

  164. @DFH
    @Tyrion 2


    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

     

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

     

    ??????? You said that Jews were 'massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia', who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

     

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    I’ll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn’t happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don’t think you’ll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You’re the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @Tyrion 2

    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the "natural aristocracy".

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life's natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives' successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn't work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about "the Jews"? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn't afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That's not a coincidence.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  165. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Epigon, @melanf

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
     

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug's dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today's elite was yesterday's elite, which was yesteryear's elite, and so on ...

    * I'm looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    Replies: @iffen, @Epigon

  166. Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ….

    Glad I don’t see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, …

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    , @Hyperborean
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Bardon Kaldian

    , @German_reader
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Apart from the fact that he's dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn't seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with "Fujishock" , restoring the country's economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It's emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  167. @Anon 2
    @utu

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @German_reader

    Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?

  168. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it's you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer - are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn't sign it.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Epigon, @melanf

    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe

    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf

    Lol, but you would prefer to read books of the bestselling authors?

    By the way in their political views, there is little difference. I just researched that J.K. Rowling (who earns millions of dollars in Russia each year) believes that Trump is controlled by Putin.

  169. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean, @German_reader, @Dmitry

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @reiner Tor


    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?
     
    For the record, so is Tomas Tranströmer, whom Dmitry cited above as one of three Nobel laureates not to sign the letter.
  170. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean, @German_reader, @Dmitry

    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean

    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Hyperborean

    So, that's why I haven't heard of him lately...... Pity this is not 19th C & available spiritualist mediums are not worth the trouble.

  171. @Hyperborean
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Bardon Kaldian

    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn't approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany's self-abolition in particular.

    Replies: @utu

  172. @Hyperborean
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte is deceased.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Bardon Kaldian

    So, that’s why I haven’t heard of him lately…… Pity this is not 19th C & available spiritualist mediums are not worth the trouble.

  173. It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they’ve signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin’s 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), …

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don’t think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I’ve noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I'd strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @AP
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks for the recommendation.

  174. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Dmitry

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Yevardian

    They really aren’t though. How is making this (false) distinction different from ‘but it wasn’t “real Communism!’, exactly?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    I'm not sure how writing it like it is a text file extension, changes meaning either.

    The terminology "neoliberal", was useful to clarify later 20th century ideologies based in the historic 19th century knowledge and views of "classical liberalism".

    People introduced this clarification because a meaning of "liberal" was changed in the early 20th century to refer only as a kind of moderate socialism with permissive social views.

    Thinkers of "neoliberalism" are Hayek, Friedman, et al. Although the terminology "classical liberal" may be less corrupted by propaganda.

    Hayek indeed believed in some European economic federalism. But this is not a superstate ideology which EU was actually following.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Hayek was also most associated with Margaret Thatcher, who opposed immigration to the UK.

  175. @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin


    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe
     
    I think he's mostly known for speaking out against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven't read him either though (and don't intend to), can't comment on his literary merits.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Yevardian

    I’ve only read Kar (Snow), was a passable (if humorless like most Turkish literature) middlebrow novel, didn’t strike me as overly political or preachy. He frequently oversteps the line between ‘homage’ and outright lifting famous passages from other Turkish writers though.

  176. @Bardon Kaldian
    It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they've signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin's 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), ...

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don't think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I've noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413TSc-R0SL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Replies: @Yevardian, @AP

    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I’d strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Yevardian

    You don't know what you're talking about. If a guy writes a book on, say, homosexuals, he can include Marcel Proust & Ernst Roehm, both of them. So what?

  177. @Yevardian
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I'd strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. If a guy writes a book on, say, homosexuals, he can include Marcel Proust & Ernst Roehm, both of them. So what?

  178. German_reader says:
    @Anon 2
    @utu

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @German_reader

    Can
    the Germans,

    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they’ve been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn’t that profound.
    As for Poland’s “close relationship” to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @German_reader

    True. Many Germans began emigrating to the 13 American colonies in the
    18th century. The Polish immigrants have come primarily in the last 200
    years so the links are much closer. Moreover, because the U.S. fought
    Germany in both world wars, there is a lot of unpleasant history involving
    Germans in the U.S. 1. More Americans were killed by Germany than by
    any other country. Steve Sailer even jokes that all the good Germans came
    to America leaving only the bad Germans in Europe. 2. German nationals
    were placed in internment camps during both wars, more during
    WW I, 3. The anti-German hatred was so intense around 1914-5 that a number
    of German nationals were lynched in the state of Missouri.

    In contrast, Polish aristocrats and nobility had friendships at the highest
    levels of American politics. For example, Generals Kosciuszko (who designed
    West Point) and Pulaski were friends with Washington and Jefferson. General
    Krzyzanowski fought in the Civil War. Paderewski, Polish nobleman and
    a great pianist, was close friends with President Woodrow Wilson, and made
    a decisive contribution to Poland’s independence. Polish aristocrat Alfred
    Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, socialized after WW I with
    (the future General) Patton. Both were accomplished cavalry men and
    swordsmen, i.e., not mere intellectuals but also men of action. And, of course,
    another Polish aristocrat, Zbigniew Brzezinski, played an important role
    in recent American politics. Noblemen and aristocrats were such a novelty in the
    U.S. that they easily found access to the highest levels of power. Many people
    wanted to be friends with them.

    Tom Malinowski whom I mentioned, has a famous name, but I don’t know
    if he is related to Bronislaw Malinowski, one of the founders of
    anthropology. However, he had already served in the Obama
    administration. He is now a Democratic congressman from New Jersey.

    Replies: @utu

  179. @utu
    @Hyperborean

    I rarely saw Swedish flags - I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    Replies: @Anonymous lurker

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don’t really follow.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Anonymous lurker

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Anonymous lurker, @songbird

    , @Hyperborean
    @Anonymous lurker


    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

     

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.


    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    [...]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    [...]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.
     
    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Swedish Family
    @Anonymous lurker


    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.
     
    This is all true. I will add only that our Swedish flag is sensitive to context. Sporting a T-shirt with a Swedish flag on it is not the done thing, nor is having a Swedish flag as your avatar on social media, but flying it on holidays is fine, and so is any display of it abroad. I'm speaking of the major cities here. Small-towners are more accepting.

    Overall, you find far less flag-waving here than in Eastern Europe*. I think this is because flag rituals are first of all a young country's game. When your nation has had its own state for centuries, these overt expressions of fealty feel a little desperate.

    * Fewer EU flags too. The Baltics especially are swimming in them. Things that make you go hmm.
  180. German_reader says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean, @German_reader, @Dmitry

    Apart from the fact that he’s dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn’t seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @German_reader

    I don't know about these nuances, but short & candid talk with anyone, centering on crucial issues, would be sufficient to ascertain whether we're dealing with normal people or corrupt/delusional wackos.

  181. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @Hyperborean

    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    Replies: @German_reader

    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn’t approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany’s self-abolition in particular.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    Replies: @German_reader

  182. @German_reader
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Apart from the fact that he's dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn't seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    I don’t know about these nuances, but short & candid talk with anyone, centering on crucial issues, would be sufficient to ascertain whether we’re dealing with normal people or corrupt/delusional wackos.

  183. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    I'll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn't happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don't think you'll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You're the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the “natural aristocracy”.

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life’s natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives’ successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn’t work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about “the Jews”? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn’t afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That’s not a coincidence.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Tyrion 2


    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

  184. @reiner Tor
    @utu

    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    Replies: @iffen

    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven’t noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….

    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen


    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

  185. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:


    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.
     
    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….
     
    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    Replies: @German_reader

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    Maybe he’s some kind of bot, might explain why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Either you're dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they're even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @iffen
    @German_reader

    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    Replies: @German_reader

  186. @Tyrion 2
    @Tyrion 2

    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the "natural aristocracy".

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life's natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives' successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn't work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about "the Jews"? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn't afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That's not a coincidence.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Order, logic and decency hasn’t won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Tyrion 2, @songbird

    , @utu
    @Hyperborean

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

  187. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @Tyrion 2


    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.
    Mainstream “conservative” parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.
     
    I remember some American alt-right writers were joking in an interview that they would have achieved their aim when they were executed by the new government for being 'too leftist'.

    I think it is hard to avert the course that has been now, and it might have been predestined by decisions set in place years ago. What is to be determined is what is left after the deluge.
    , @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    It would help if those to the right of them didn't self-identity as "vicious fascists".

    Replies: @neutral

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

  188. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Tyrion 2, @songbird

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.

    I remember some American alt-right writers were joking in an interview that they would have achieved their aim when they were executed by the new government for being ‘too leftist’.

    I think it is hard to avert the course that has been now, and it might have been predestined by decisions set in place years ago. What is to be determined is what is left after the deluge.

  189. @German_reader
    @iffen


    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

    Either you’re dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they’re even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Tyrion 2


    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.
     
    That sounds very bot-like, are you just stringing random words together?
    Don't really see your point, it's not like I advocated for a political movement based on antisemitism (that would indeed probably be not a good idea).
    Hard not to get the impression that you enjoy pointless internet fights (iirc over on Sailer's blog you even exchanged insults with commenter "Twinkie" who can hardly be accused of being a white nationalist). I don't have time for that, so unless you've got something substantial to add, I'll end this exchange here.
  190. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn't approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany's self-abolition in particular.

    Replies: @utu

    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    I agree, but I don't see them anywhere. Nolte's fate (becoming an unperson with zero influence in mainstream discussions) wasn't exactly encouraging. And the general situation has become a lot worse since the 1980s.

  191. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Tyrion 2, @songbird

    It would help if those to the right of them didn’t self-identity as “vicious fascists”.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Tyrion 2

    No it would help if they worked for the interests for their own kind as opposed always seeking to please jews first.

  192. @Bardon Kaldian
    It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they've signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin's 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), ...

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don't think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I've noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413TSc-R0SL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

    Replies: @Yevardian, @AP

    Thanks for the recommendation.

  193. German_reader says:
    @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    Either you're dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they're even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    Replies: @German_reader

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    That sounds very bot-like, are you just stringing random words together?
    Don’t really see your point, it’s not like I advocated for a political movement based on antisemitism (that would indeed probably be not a good idea).
    Hard not to get the impression that you enjoy pointless internet fights (iirc over on Sailer’s blog you even exchanged insults with commenter “Twinkie” who can hardly be accused of being a white nationalist). I don’t have time for that, so unless you’ve got something substantial to add, I’ll end this exchange here.

    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  194. @Tyrion 2
    @German_reader

    It would help if those to the right of them didn't self-identity as "vicious fascists".

    Replies: @neutral

    No it would help if they worked for the interests for their own kind as opposed always seeking to please jews first.

  195. @utu
    @German_reader

    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I agree, but I don’t see them anywhere. Nolte’s fate (becoming an unperson with zero influence in mainstream discussions) wasn’t exactly encouraging. And the general situation has become a lot worse since the 1980s.

  196. @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    Replies: @utu, @Hyperborean, @Swedish Family

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” – I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @utu


    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.
     

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.
     
    https://twitter.com/BorzoiBoskovic/status/1062141326752407553

    Replies: @utu

    , @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    I'm guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don't know.

    It's just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it's one of the few forms of everyday "nationalism" that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from "above" to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn't celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn't even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it's all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    Replies: @utu

    , @songbird
    @utu

    To me, the flag used to be meaningful, but after 9/11 people started to put it up to use it to virtue signal support for the government or that they were against terrorism. And by now, the government has successfully subverted it, partly through mass immigration, to the point where it has close to no meaningful value.

    When I was a boy, we hung it up at a cottage in the countryside and an old vet walking down the street saluted it, even though he was about a 100 feet away, and it was a very sparsely populated place. I don't think anyone would do that today.

    IMO, that is why they attacked the Confederate flag. Because the feds could not fly it, but it represented originalist values. All that is left is the Gadsden Flag, but flying a snake isn't the same thing. They also take note of you, if you do.

  197. @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    Replies: @utu, @Hyperborean, @Swedish Family

    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    […]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    […]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.

    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @utu

  198. @Hyperborean
    @Anonymous lurker


    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

     

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.


    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    [...]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    [...]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.
     
    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    Replies: @German_reader

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There's a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?
     
    I don't know, no one ever told me and I never bothered to wonder why (I suppose I prove the point, lol). At least in Denmark, there are also other rules like the flag must never touch the ground and (IIRC) it should be folded in a certain manner.


    I have never actually done any flag raising, it is just part of what I am told about.

    , @utu
    @German_reader


    What’s the point of that rule?
     
    Lighten up. The rules are for military and Boy Scouts. Garrison Keillor touches on this issue when destroying Bernard-Henri Lévy's pretentious book on America:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/on-the-road-avec-m-levy.html
    But every 10 pages or so, Lévy walks into a wall. About Old Glory, for example. Someone has told him about the rules for proper handling of the flag, and from these (the flag must not be allowed to touch the ground, must be disposed of by burning) he has invented an American flag fetish, a national obsession, a cult of flag worship. Somebody forgot to tell him that to those of us not currently enrolled in the Boy Scouts, these rules aren't a big part of everyday life.
     
  199. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @utu

    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There’s a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather.
     
    That seems kind of logical if the point is to avoid harm to the flag as a national symbol. I don't quite get though why it would be wrong to keep it up at night.

    It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.
     
    Swedes of course have a law about it, and then scrupulously comply with it. Lol, even worse than Germans.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard.
     
    Only time one ever really sees much of the German flag is international football matches (world cup etc.). Yes, apart from that it's not that common for private citizens to fly it (though occasionally one does see it).
  200. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism
     
    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It's not like there aren't precedents for that.
    Mainstream "conservative" parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Tyrion 2, @songbird

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow, @songbird

    , @German_reader
    @songbird


    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.
     
    Yes, and that needs to end, so concern-trolling of the kind shown by Tyrion2 above ("It's no wonder you're not regarded as respectable when you don't disavow all those nasty racists!") has to be rejected. It's still true that any political movement needs to set boundaries, one can't just accept every crank who wants to promote his pet obsessions; but one should never accept the framing of debate set by one's political opponents.
  201. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @utu

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    I don’t know, no one ever told me and I never bothered to wonder why (I suppose I prove the point, lol). At least in Denmark, there are also other rules like the flag must never touch the ground and (IIRC) it should be folded in a certain manner.

    I have never actually done any flag raising, it is just part of what I am told about.

  202. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There's a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather.

    That seems kind of logical if the point is to avoid harm to the flag as a national symbol. I don’t quite get though why it would be wrong to keep it up at night.

    It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    Swedes of course have a law about it, and then scrupulously comply with it. Lol, even worse than Germans.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard.

    Only time one ever really sees much of the German flag is international football matches (world cup etc.). Yes, apart from that it’s not that common for private citizens to fly it (though occasionally one does see it).

  203. @utu
    @Anonymous lurker

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Anonymous lurker, @songbird

    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.

    https://twitter.com/BorzoiBoskovic/status/1062141326752407553

    • Replies: @utu
    @Mitleser

    Turks have a very thin skin.

  204. @songbird
    @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy’s Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.

    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.

    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.

    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.

    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.
     
    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @Beckow
    @Hyperborean

    One way to look at Cafavy's poem (I like it a lot) is that it describes a society that has reached a post-history stage. No ideology, no action or ambition, can even pretend to fix anything. There are no solutions because everything has been tried and found wanting. All that is left is a violent reset to restart the process.

    It is a historical analogy to Wittgenstein's climb up a tree, ever higher to ever thinner branches, until at the end he is stuck on the thinnest, most remote small branch, with no way forward or back. At that point all that is left is to saw off the branch.

    We are not there, yet. What we see are that large groups have accepted the usual combination of ennui and greed and are consciously or absent-mindedly pushing our societies toward dissolution. Either bring in the barbarians or - even more crazy - let's have a 'revolution'. The more unhinged among them connect the two.

    They are driven by determinism of their own making. I am always struck by their last refuge when they lose an argument (they always lose) - 'it is inevitable', 'the mish-mash global utopia is here to stay, make the best out of it'. There is an abandonment of free will. People abandon free will when all choices seem like they would make things worse.

    , @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    That's an interesting poem. I had not heard it before.

    I'm still hoping for DNA evidence of what happened. Might be that people were getting dumber, even without admixture.

    That seems to be happening now. The Flynn effect has peaked and started to reverse, even in real Europeans. And that is certainly an interesting phenomenon, as others like Cochran have pointed out, because to acknowledge it means that you are acknowledging that selection pressures can shape IQ. And if that happens on a small time scale, how much more likely is it that it has happened on a large time scale between different groups, living in different locations?

    Of course, the answer is obvious, but many people still deflect it, but I think that idea of a built-in collapse really forces the issue. Some day sooner or later, there will be a state that acknowledges IQ. And it might be really powerful compared to all the ones that don't.

  205. German_reader says:
    @songbird
    @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that's an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    Yes, and that needs to end, so concern-trolling of the kind shown by Tyrion2 above (“It’s no wonder you’re not regarded as respectable when you don’t disavow all those nasty racists!”) has to be rejected. It’s still true that any political movement needs to set boundaries, one can’t just accept every crank who wants to promote his pet obsessions; but one should never accept the framing of debate set by one’s political opponents.

  206. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow, @songbird

    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.


    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.
     
    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?


    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.


    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.
     
    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of 'our' men 'just in from the border' claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don't consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    Replies: @German_reader

  207. @utu
    @Anonymous lurker

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Anonymous lurker, @songbird

    I’m guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don’t know.

    It’s just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it’s one of the few forms of everyday “nationalism” that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from “above” to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn’t celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn’t even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it’s all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Anonymous lurker

    Perhaps I should have told you that my other reaction to the flags when I was in Sweden in 1980s was some admiration that they were proud of being Swedish and of Sweden that they normalized 'flag waving' to the point it was not a big deal anymore.

  208. @utu
    @Anonymous lurker

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” - I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

    Replies: @Mitleser, @Anonymous lurker, @songbird

    To me, the flag used to be meaningful, but after 9/11 people started to put it up to use it to virtue signal support for the government or that they were against terrorism. And by now, the government has successfully subverted it, partly through mass immigration, to the point where it has close to no meaningful value.

    When I was a boy, we hung it up at a cottage in the countryside and an old vet walking down the street saluted it, even though he was about a 100 feet away, and it was a very sparsely populated place. I don’t think anyone would do that today.

    IMO, that is why they attacked the Confederate flag. Because the feds could not fly it, but it represented originalist values. All that is left is the Gadsden Flag, but flying a snake isn’t the same thing. They also take note of you, if you do.

    • Agree: utu
  209. @Hyperborean
    @Tyrion 2


    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.
     
    Order, logic and decency hasn't won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    Replies: @German_reader, @utu

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let’s call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That’s why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @utu


    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.
     
    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau's attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like 'the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood' in the pre-WWI Era.

    Replies: @utu

    , @German_reader
    @utu


    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race
     
    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can't dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can't comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you'll just end up with another debate about "values".
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    Replies: @utu

  210. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.
     
    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?

    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of ‘our’ men ‘just in from the border’ claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don’t consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.
     
    But the real barbarians to some extent continued Roman legislation, e.g. much of what we still have of the Codex Theodosianus comes from this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary_of_Alaric
    Also the numerous law codes for barbarian peoples (clearly in imitation of Roman models). So the point is rather imo that the barbarians are going to take over legislation.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered
     
    I think that's a misinterpretation, "loaded with titles" refers to the scroll that is to be given to the barbarian leaders. Barbarian leaders often sought imperial service and some kind of official Roman title, e.g. iirc Alaric was magister militum at some point.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.
     
    Yes, maybe the ending could be interpreted like that (dissolution of the boundary between civilized and barbarian?), I admit I find it quite enigmatic.
  211. @German_reader
    @iffen


    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.
     
    Maybe he's some kind of bot, might explain why many of his "arguments" are so nonsensical.

    Replies: @Tyrion 2, @iffen

    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen


    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.
     
    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced "Holocaust revisionism" now as well...), but I don't think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The "free speech" reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion's arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse "customers", just not to hurt Iran's feelings...that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    Replies: @iffen

  212. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @German_reader

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.


    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.
     
    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?


    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.


    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.
     
    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of 'our' men 'just in from the border' claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don't consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    Replies: @German_reader

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    But the real barbarians to some extent continued Roman legislation, e.g. much of what we still have of the Codex Theodosianus comes from this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary_of_Alaric
    Also the numerous law codes for barbarian peoples (clearly in imitation of Roman models). So the point is rather imo that the barbarians are going to take over legislation.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered

    I think that’s a misinterpretation, “loaded with titles” refers to the scroll that is to be given to the barbarian leaders. Barbarian leaders often sought imperial service and some kind of official Roman title, e.g. iirc Alaric was magister militum at some point.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    Yes, maybe the ending could be interpreted like that (dissolution of the boundary between civilized and barbarian?), I admit I find it quite enigmatic.

  213. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow, @songbird

    One way to look at Cafavy’s poem (I like it a lot) is that it describes a society that has reached a post-history stage. No ideology, no action or ambition, can even pretend to fix anything. There are no solutions because everything has been tried and found wanting. All that is left is a violent reset to restart the process.

    It is a historical analogy to Wittgenstein’s climb up a tree, ever higher to ever thinner branches, until at the end he is stuck on the thinnest, most remote small branch, with no way forward or back. At that point all that is left is to saw off the branch.

    We are not there, yet. What we see are that large groups have accepted the usual combination of ennui and greed and are consciously or absent-mindedly pushing our societies toward dissolution. Either bring in the barbarians or – even more crazy – let’s have a ‘revolution‘. The more unhinged among them connect the two.

    They are driven by determinism of their own making. I am always struck by their last refuge when they lose an argument (they always lose) – ‘it is inevitable‘, ‘the mish-mash global utopia is here to stay, make the best out of it‘. There is an abandonment of free will. People abandon free will when all choices seem like they would make things worse.

  214. German_reader says:
    @iffen
    @German_reader

    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    Replies: @German_reader

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced “Holocaust revisionism” now as well…), but I don’t think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The “free speech” reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion’s arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse “customers”, just not to hurt Iran’s feelings…that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    Replies: @utu

  215. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean


    This rule exists in Denmark as well.
     
    What's the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @utu

    What’s the point of that rule?

    Lighten up. The rules are for military and Boy Scouts. Garrison Keillor touches on this issue when destroying Bernard-Henri Lévy’s pretentious book on America:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/on-the-road-avec-m-levy.html
    But every 10 pages or so, Lévy walks into a wall. About Old Glory, for example. Someone has told him about the rules for proper handling of the flag, and from these (the flag must not be allowed to touch the ground, must be disposed of by burning) he has invented an American flag fetish, a national obsession, a cult of flag worship. Somebody forgot to tell him that to those of us not currently enrolled in the Boy Scouts, these rules aren’t a big part of everyday life.

  216. @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    I'm guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don't know.

    It's just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it's one of the few forms of everyday "nationalism" that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from "above" to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn't celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn't even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it's all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    Replies: @utu

    Perhaps I should have told you that my other reaction to the flags when I was in Sweden in 1980s was some admiration that they were proud of being Swedish and of Sweden that they normalized ‘flag waving’ to the point it was not a big deal anymore.

  217. @utu
    @Hyperborean

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.

    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau’s attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’ in the pre-WWI Era.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Hyperborean


    Jewish proto-fascists
     
    Judaism is fascist.

    ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’
     
    It originally came form Judaism so it precedes National Socialist. The Chosen Race concept, obsession with purity, purity of blood, monolatry in German National Socialism were copied from Judaism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
    Italy was a source of ideological, historical and cultural inspiration for the Zionist Revisionists of the 1920s and 1930s.[3] The country under Mussolini was seen as a historical reminder of the roots of the Jewish people and as a contemporary example of a once glorious culture reclaiming its role in the world through the affirmation of power and national pride.

    Jabotinsky had been scheduled to meet Benito Mussolini as early as 1922, but for various reasons the meeting did not take place. However, in a letter to Mussolini, Jabotinsky attempted to win his support for the Zionist cause by arguing that for cultural reasons Italy's pro-Arab policy was misguided.[5] Jabotinsky predicted that Italy and the Arabs would inevitably come into conflict and that a Jewish state in the Middle East could act as a buffer between Europe, Asia and Africa
     
  218. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @Hyperborean

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let's call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That's why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @German_reader

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race

    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can’t dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can’t comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you’ll just end up with another debate about “values”.
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    Replies: @German_reader

  219. @German_reader
    @iffen


    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.
     
    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced "Holocaust revisionism" now as well...), but I don't think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The "free speech" reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion's arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse "customers", just not to hurt Iran's feelings...that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    Replies: @iffen

    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    • Replies: @utu
    @iffen


    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.
     
    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    Replies: @iffen

  220. @Hyperborean
    @utu


    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.
     
    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau's attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like 'the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood' in the pre-WWI Era.

    Replies: @utu

    Jewish proto-fascists

    Judaism is fascist.

    ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’

    It originally came form Judaism so it precedes National Socialist. The Chosen Race concept, obsession with purity, purity of blood, monolatry in German National Socialism were copied from Judaism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
    Italy was a source of ideological, historical and cultural inspiration for the Zionist Revisionists of the 1920s and 1930s.[3] The country under Mussolini was seen as a historical reminder of the roots of the Jewish people and as a contemporary example of a once glorious culture reclaiming its role in the world through the affirmation of power and national pride.

    Jabotinsky had been scheduled to meet Benito Mussolini as early as 1922, but for various reasons the meeting did not take place. However, in a letter to Mussolini, Jabotinsky attempted to win his support for the Zionist cause by arguing that for cultural reasons Italy’s pro-Arab policy was misguided.[5] Jabotinsky predicted that Italy and the Arabs would inevitably come into conflict and that a Jewish state in the Middle East could act as a buffer between Europe, Asia and Africa

  221. @German_reader
    @utu


    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race
     
    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can't dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can't comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you'll just end up with another debate about "values".
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    Replies: @utu

    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.
     
    Some kind of "drastic solution" is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn't advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it's of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn't say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren't sufficient imo. I don't know what you mean by "culture", imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can't be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of "racism" anyway, because they claim that "culture" is merely a proxy for "race" (they already have concepts like "culturalism", "racism without races", Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    Replies: @utu

  222. @iffen
    @German_reader

    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    Replies: @utu

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @utu

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Apparently the difference between absolution and explanation is beyond your grasp.

    FWIW, I don’t believe Jews or anyone else need absolution for political views or ideology. In my younger years I leaned toward socialism, Marxism and Bolshevism. I still consider myself a leftist with regards to economic policy. In any case, if I had to choose between your anti-Semitic fascism and Bolshevism, I wouldn’t even have to think about it, comrade.

  223. @Mitleser
    @utu


    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.
     

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.
     
    https://twitter.com/BorzoiBoskovic/status/1062141326752407553

    Replies: @utu

    Turks have a very thin skin.

  224. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    Replies: @German_reader

    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.

    Some kind of “drastic solution” is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn’t advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it’s of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn’t say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren’t sufficient imo. I don’t know what you mean by “culture”, imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can’t be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of “racism” anyway, because they claim that “culture” is merely a proxy for “race” (they already have concepts like “culturalism”, “racism without races”, Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens...

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB

  225. @German_reader
    @utu


    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.
     
    Some kind of "drastic solution" is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn't advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it's of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn't say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren't sufficient imo. I don't know what you mean by "culture", imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can't be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of "racism" anyway, because they claim that "culture" is merely a proxy for "race" (they already have concepts like "culturalism", "racism without races", Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    Replies: @utu

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens…

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu


    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen, @Beckow

    , @AaronB
    @utu


    State-level fascism hasn’t arrived yet, but our social elite has been preparing for it for decades. They are in no hurry to make it happen, but they will if they judge it to favor their interests. Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism– using racial resentments, religious bigotry, and the frank irrationality that emerges from stunted masculinity and (economically enforced) permanent adolescence? To ensure that, no matter what else happens during a populist uprising, they’ll have an easy time getting their money out of it. The upper class has convinced the rabble that generational wealth and connections– neither of which the rabble themselves have– are a right; meanwhile, leftists and racial minorities are a source of their misery.

    This society is set up so that, if such events come to pass, the most armed and ready militants will be on the right wing. Not only will this support the elite’s economic goals and keep the proletariat divided against itself, but it will also mean that any revolutionary effort is likely to be overcome by people with such repugnant ideological and cultural aims that they will never gain global sympathy. The upper class would rather have a 95 percent chance of a rightist-racist revolt that no one (present company included) would support than a 25 percent chance of a leftist revolt that would quickly gain global sympathy.
     

    - Michael O Church blog

    It is amusing to see all the ernest right wingers tell the Left that if they keep on practicing identity politics, whites will begin to also - as if the Left does not know this and want this.

    Replies: @German_reader

  226. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens...

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia

    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many “refugees” have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers’ money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    “Xenophobia” imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn’t likely to be successful. But one can’t and shouldn’t avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    Xenophobia is such a strange word, in the way it is used today. It seems to bear no similarity to what I would consider its natural meaning: fear of foreign visitors, rather than foreign invaders.

    I don't think it is a word that fits much with modern European history. To be sure, nations had their antipathies and sometimes these were manifested in prejudices, but mostly between powers. I wouldn't even consider the Nazis to be xenophobic. At least, not in the same way that most of East Asia was xenophobic. Perhaps, the Soviet Union, under Stalin.

    Really the word that should be used today is "xenophilia", alongside other "philias" but the left only works in "phobias."

    , @iffen
    @German_reader

    try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants

    I think that this is the wrong approach for those of us in the US and perhaps for you in Germany. In the US we would have to say that there cannot be further immigration from certain groups even if those certain groups are already here and are citizens. Simply put, I don’t believe that I have the right as a citizen, as a descendant of Scotch-Irish and Germans, to tell my fellow black Americans that we can’t have any more immigration from Africa, but immigrants from Ireland and Scotland are okay. It would be much easier to argue for a immigration hiatus across the board. Not because we don’t want certain groups coming in, or because certain groups can’t or won’t assimilate, but because of present economic conditions we need time to get our house in order before we can expect to be able to handle more immigrants.

    , @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...normalize the idea that not everybody is the same
     
    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete 'all are equal' idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent 'asylum laws' would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a 'soft landing' - to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and 'labor shortages'. They are going as far as planting false 'immigration freeze' stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed - they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools...

    Replies: @German_reader

  227. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.
     
    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy's Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.


    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.


    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.


    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.


    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.


    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.


    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.
     

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow, @songbird

    That’s an interesting poem. I had not heard it before.

    I’m still hoping for DNA evidence of what happened. Might be that people were getting dumber, even without admixture.

    That seems to be happening now. The Flynn effect has peaked and started to reverse, even in real Europeans. And that is certainly an interesting phenomenon, as others like Cochran have pointed out, because to acknowledge it means that you are acknowledging that selection pressures can shape IQ. And if that happens on a small time scale, how much more likely is it that it has happened on a large time scale between different groups, living in different locations?

    Of course, the answer is obvious, but many people still deflect it, but I think that idea of a built-in collapse really forces the issue. Some day sooner or later, there will be a state that acknowledges IQ. And it might be really powerful compared to all the ones that don’t.

  228. @utu
    @iffen


    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.
     
    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    Replies: @iffen

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Apparently the difference between absolution and explanation is beyond your grasp.

    FWIW, I don’t believe Jews or anyone else need absolution for political views or ideology. In my younger years I leaned toward socialism, Marxism and Bolshevism. I still consider myself a leftist with regards to economic policy. In any case, if I had to choose between your anti-Semitic fascism and Bolshevism, I wouldn’t even have to think about it, comrade.

  229. @German_reader
    @utu


    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen, @Beckow

    Xenophobia is such a strange word, in the way it is used today. It seems to bear no similarity to what I would consider its natural meaning: fear of foreign visitors, rather than foreign invaders.

    I don’t think it is a word that fits much with modern European history. To be sure, nations had their antipathies and sometimes these were manifested in prejudices, but mostly between powers. I wouldn’t even consider the Nazis to be xenophobic. At least, not in the same way that most of East Asia was xenophobic. Perhaps, the Soviet Union, under Stalin.

    Really the word that should be used today is “xenophilia”, alongside other “philias” but the left only works in “phobias.”

  230. @German_reader
    @utu


    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen, @Beckow

    try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants

    I think that this is the wrong approach for those of us in the US and perhaps for you in Germany. In the US we would have to say that there cannot be further immigration from certain groups even if those certain groups are already here and are citizens. Simply put, I don’t believe that I have the right as a citizen, as a descendant of Scotch-Irish and Germans, to tell my fellow black Americans that we can’t have any more immigration from Africa, but immigrants from Ireland and Scotland are okay. It would be much easier to argue for a immigration hiatus across the board. Not because we don’t want certain groups coming in, or because certain groups can’t or won’t assimilate, but because of present economic conditions we need time to get our house in order before we can expect to be able to handle more immigrants.

  231. @German_reader
    @utu


    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia
     
    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many "refugees" have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers' money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    "Xenophobia" imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn't likely to be successful. But one can't and shouldn't avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    Replies: @songbird, @iffen, @Beckow

    …normalize the idea that not everybody is the same

    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete ‘all are equal‘ idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent ‘asylum laws’ would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a ‘soft landing’ – to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and ‘labor shortages’. They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed – they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools…

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong
     
    Yes, that's indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.
     
    Indeed, that's what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    Replies: @Beckow

  232. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...normalize the idea that not everybody is the same
     
    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete 'all are equal' idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent 'asylum laws' would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a 'soft landing' - to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and 'labor shortages'. They are going as far as planting false 'immigration freeze' stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed - they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools...

    Replies: @German_reader

    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong

    Yes, that’s indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.

    Indeed, that’s what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader

    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of 'heralds', and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  233. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong
     
    Yes, that's indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.
     
    Indeed, that's what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    Replies: @Beckow

    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of ‘heralds’, and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Beckow

    Western Europe is different, Pew says: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/29/east-west-divide-within-the-eu-on-issues-including-minorities-gay-marriage-and-national-identity/

    Replies: @German_reader

  234. @Beckow
    @German_reader

    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of 'heralds', and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the "Soviet freezer", which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    Replies: @Beckow

  235. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Beckow

    Western Europe is different, Pew says: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/29/east-west-divide-within-the-eu-on-issues-including-minorities-gay-marriage-and-national-identity/

    Replies: @German_reader

    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the “Soviet freezer”, which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader


    'Soviet freezer'
     
    That would imply that 'freezing' a society is required to keep nations, families and cultures from disintegrating. I think that is too strong. West used its 'openness' as a weapon during the Cold War, and then the momentum just kept on going until we have reached the current unfolding demographic-economic-cultural disaster. In 20 years most of Western Europe will be unrecognizable.

    I don't see a way to reverse it. Or even manage it on the current level. West could become a hybrid civilization, something like most of Latin America. I am waiting for Faust played by an African and Pakistani Hamlet, a kind of a majestic f-u to the white culture. We are almost there.
  236. @German_reader
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the "Soviet freezer", which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    Replies: @Beckow

    ‘Soviet freezer’

    That would imply that ‘freezing‘ a society is required to keep nations, families and cultures from disintegrating. I think that is too strong. West used its ‘openness‘ as a weapon during the Cold War, and then the momentum just kept on going until we have reached the current unfolding demographic-economic-cultural disaster. In 20 years most of Western Europe will be unrecognizable.

    I don’t see a way to reverse it. Or even manage it on the current level. West could become a hybrid civilization, something like most of Latin America. I am waiting for Faust played by an African and Pakistani Hamlet, a kind of a majestic f-u to the white culture. We are almost there.

  237. @Beckow
    @Swedish Family

    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of 'Russia'. He projects most evil in the world on Russia - now and even in the future. He talks about having once 'had a certain idea of Russia', he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don't want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    Yes, this is his id speaking. Russia arouses some deep-seated rage in him, but the rage is so wildly disproportionate to what is actually there that he is forced to accuse it of everything under the sun.

  238. Tyrion 2 has a human controller – unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel – and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dmitry

    Actually, I think that it is you and Ty who are similar in your comments.

    this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    We know that Jews are over-represented in the elites; you don’t need to tell us that. Many here are alarmed by that fact. I am not (not yet, anyway.) As I stated in my previous comment, Jews are over-represented in the fraction of the elites that are hostile to normal nationalism. The proportion of non-Jewish elites that are hostile to nationalism is smaller than the proportion of Jewish elites that are hostile as per their respective bases. IOW, Jewish elites are more likely than non-Jewish elites to be hostile to nationalism. The most likely explanation for this is because they are Jews.

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    JK Rowling shouldn't really be a surprise. There's not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn't need to, so he won't. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don't know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.
     
    I think that party has already broken apart...it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn't much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn't be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let's not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world's ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there's also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there'll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn't be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  239. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe
     
    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Lol, but you would prefer to read books of the bestselling authors?

    By the way in their political views, there is little difference. I just researched that J.K. Rowling (who earns millions of dollars in Russia each year) believes that Trump is controlled by Putin.

  240. @Bardon Kaldian
    Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ....

    Glad I don't see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, ...

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Hyperborean, @German_reader, @Dmitry

    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with “Fujishock” , restoring the country’s economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It’s emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    This is one of those questions I can't answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I've read most "classics" & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows...

    b) contemporary fiction writers don't have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they're too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they "break" taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven't seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don't believe their characters, dialogs, ... life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he's a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don't mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers - but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  241. @Epigon
    @Dmitry

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug’s dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today’s elite was yesterday’s elite, which was yesteryear’s elite, and so on …

    * I’m looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Swedish Family

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking

    Don't be dissin' our ancestors like this.

    , @Epigon
    @Swedish Family

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR - and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread - explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @peterAUS

  242. @reiner Tor
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    For the record, so is Tomas Tranströmer, whom Dmitry cited above as one of three Nobel laureates not to sign the letter.

  243. @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    Replies: @iffen, @songbird, @German_reader

    Actually, I think that it is you and Ty who are similar in your comments.

    this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    We know that Jews are over-represented in the elites; you don’t need to tell us that. Many here are alarmed by that fact. I am not (not yet, anyway.) As I stated in my previous comment, Jews are over-represented in the fraction of the elites that are hostile to normal nationalism. The proportion of non-Jewish elites that are hostile to nationalism is smaller than the proportion of Jewish elites that are hostile as per their respective bases. IOW, Jewish elites are more likely than non-Jewish elites to be hostile to nationalism. The most likely explanation for this is because they are Jews.

  244. @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
     

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug's dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today's elite was yesterday's elite, which was yesteryear's elite, and so on ...

    * I'm looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    Replies: @iffen, @Epigon

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking

    Don’t be dissin’ our ancestors like this.

  245. @Yevardian
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They really aren't though. How is making this (false) distinction different from 'but it wasn't "real Communism!', exactly?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I’m not sure how writing it like it is a text file extension, changes meaning either.

    The terminology “neoliberal”, was useful to clarify later 20th century ideologies based in the historic 19th century knowledge and views of “classical liberalism”.

    People introduced this clarification because a meaning of “liberal” was changed in the early 20th century to refer only as a kind of moderate socialism with permissive social views.

    Thinkers of “neoliberalism” are Hayek, Friedman, et al. Although the terminology “classical liberal” may be less corrupted by propaganda.

    Hayek indeed believed in some European economic federalism. But this is not a superstate ideology which EU was actually following.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Hayek was also most associated with Margaret Thatcher, who opposed immigration to the UK.

  246. @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    Replies: @iffen, @songbird, @German_reader

    JK Rowling shouldn’t really be a surprise. There’s not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn’t need to, so he won’t. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don’t know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird


    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

  247. @Anonymous lurker
    @utu

    They still do. But emphasis on "house" here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer's Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a "vimpel" which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old "must be lowered before sunset" rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I'd wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don't see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don't really follow.

    Replies: @utu, @Hyperborean, @Swedish Family

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    This is all true. I will add only that our Swedish flag is sensitive to context. Sporting a T-shirt with a Swedish flag on it is not the done thing, nor is having a Swedish flag as your avatar on social media, but flying it on holidays is fine, and so is any display of it abroad. I’m speaking of the major cities here. Small-towners are more accepting.

    Overall, you find far less flag-waving here than in Eastern Europe*. I think this is because flag rituals are first of all a young country’s game. When your nation has had its own state for centuries, these overt expressions of fealty feel a little desperate.

    * Fewer EU flags too. The Baltics especially are swimming in them. Things that make you go hmm.

  248. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    Tyrion 2 has a human controller - unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe - not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel - and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    Replies: @iffen, @songbird, @German_reader

    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn’t be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let’s not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world’s ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there’s also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there’ll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn’t be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean

  249. @Tyrion 2
    @DFH

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking...

    Also, to be honest, it isn't easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Replies: @DFH, @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    “Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.”

    The jew cries out in pain as he orders you to stop noticing.

  250. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.
     
    I think that party has already broken apart...it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn't much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn't be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let's not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world's ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there's also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there'll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn't be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.

    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    It seems unfortunate.
     
    Not really. They were a bunch of incompetent losers, no political skill at all, and desperate for respectability (which is futile, the political establishment in Germany doesn't play fair, they'll always try to crush any serious opposition, no matter how often you disavow the supposed extremists in your party).
    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.
     
    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.
     
    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don't seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don't quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @Dmitry

  251. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean

    It seems unfortunate.

    Not really. They were a bunch of incompetent losers, no political skill at all, and desperate for respectability (which is futile, the political establishment in Germany doesn’t play fair, they’ll always try to crush any serious opposition, no matter how often you disavow the supposed extremists in your party).

  252. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    JK Rowling shouldn't really be a surprise. There's not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn't need to, so he won't. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don't know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    JK Rowling

    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that’s why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    she is the bestselling writer in Russia
     
    Would be better if Russians wrote their own children's literature, that Harry Potter trash needs to go.
    , @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

     

    Although there was also her threat of lawsuit against Dmitry Emets, for the derivative Tanya Grotter series.
    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.
     
    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don't think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).
     
    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry

  253. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with "Fujishock" , restoring the country's economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It's emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    This is one of those questions I can’t answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I’ve read most “classics” & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows…

    b) contemporary fiction writers don’t have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they’re too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they “break” taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven’t seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don’t believe their characters, dialogs, … life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he’s a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don’t mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers – but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian


    . I ceased to read fiction some time ago
     
    In my situation - it seems more that I have lost my attention for reading long books. And the reason is probably laptops, ipads and iphones.

    I can still work and study fine - but it's easier now in interactive way. While reading a novel requires you to receive information passively for so many hours.

    Another barrier, is when you try to learn new languages and then refuse to read translations. Now if I would try to read Vargas Llosa, I would only do it in the Spanish language, where my vocabulary is quite weak (so I would be with the online dictionary half the time).

    Your view of him may a bit unfair, however. He published this book La civilización del espectáculo - which is apparently very critical of modern art.

    https://www.amazon.com/civilizaci%C3%B3n-del-espect%C3%A1culo-Spanish-ebook/dp/B007T8Y6XS/

  254. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    she is the bestselling writer in Russia

    Would be better if Russians wrote their own children’s literature, that Harry Potter trash needs to go.

  255. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Although there was also her threat of lawsuit against Dmitry Emets, for the derivative Tanya Grotter series.

  256. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    This is one of those questions I can't answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I've read most "classics" & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows...

    b) contemporary fiction writers don't have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they're too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they "break" taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven't seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don't believe their characters, dialogs, ... life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he's a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don't mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers - but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    . I ceased to read fiction some time ago

    In my situation – it seems more that I have lost my attention for reading long books. And the reason is probably laptops, ipads and iphones.

    I can still work and study fine – but it’s easier now in interactive way. While reading a novel requires you to receive information passively for so many hours.

    Another barrier, is when you try to learn new languages and then refuse to read translations. Now if I would try to read Vargas Llosa, I would only do it in the Spanish language, where my vocabulary is quite weak (so I would be with the online dictionary half the time).

    Your view of him may a bit unfair, however. He published this book La civilización del espectáculo – which is apparently very critical of modern art.

  257. @Dmitry
    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists - Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @El Dato, @Swedish Family, @dfordoom

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    How exactly is The Guardian socialistic? Are they advocating for the nationalisation of the banks? The breaking up of monopolies? Workers’ control of industry? A radical redistribution of wealth?

    Or do they advocate for identity politics and globalism, both of which are antithetical to socialism?

  258. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked
     
    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it's not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.


    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.
     
    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Hyperborean

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.

    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don’t seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Hyperborean


    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.
     
    They have fewer taboos on attacking Jews, both amongst themselves and by external society.

    They also take it much more personally as a blood feud, perhaps both because of their ethnic and class background.
    , @utu
    @Hyperborean


    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.
     
    Very astute observation. And sad.

    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don’t seem to care much
     
    It seems this was a part of the plan from the very beginning. Get the anti-immigrant anti-Muslim energy focused on the support of Israel. And if the energy is waning they can always arrange a terrorist act or send another wave of refugees.
    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

     

    A lot of Israeli policy in relation to Arabs is extremely liberal and multicultural. And Israeli method of military action, is perceived more as weakness by many Arabs since at least the 1990s.

    Any nationalists trying to live vicariously through Israeli policy, will be disappointed by de facto liberal multinational state. They will sit in the cafe in Tel Aviv and listen to the mosque.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceaS5hcHZak


    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea
     
    There could be some really postmodernist combinations in some countries like France, such as Muslim parties of the political right.

    France seems like the worst example to follow.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  259. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    JK Rowling
     
    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that's why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal - she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don’t think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Hyperborean


    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own.
     
    I think this is an excellent and scary example of how reality can be artificially constructed. The construction achieves the solidity of the real thing to the point that Russia begins to conform to it. It should be analyzed and placed in textbooks of political science and sociology.
    , @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.
     
    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia - the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America - CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere - not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There's poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

    Replies: @Beckow, @songbird, @Swedish Family, @Hyperborean

  260. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.
     
    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.
     
    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don't seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don't quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @Dmitry

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    They have fewer taboos on attacking Jews, both amongst themselves and by external society.

    They also take it much more personally as a blood feud, perhaps both because of their ethnic and class background.

  261. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.
     
    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.
     
    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don't seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don't quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @Dmitry

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    Very astute observation. And sad.

    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don’t seem to care much

    It seems this was a part of the plan from the very beginning. Get the anti-immigrant anti-Muslim energy focused on the support of Israel. And if the energy is waning they can always arrange a terrorist act or send another wave of refugees.

  262. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.
     
    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don't think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).
     
    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry

    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own.

    I think this is an excellent and scary example of how reality can be artificially constructed. The construction achieves the solidity of the real thing to the point that Russia begins to conform to it. It should be analyzed and placed in textbooks of political science and sociology.

  263. Kamala Harris is an Article-2-Ineligible Neo-Liberal.

  264. @German_reader
    @Anon 2


    Can
    the Germans,
     
    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they've been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn't that profound.
    As for Poland's "close relationship" to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.

    Replies: @Anon 2

    True. Many Germans began emigrating to the 13 American colonies in the
    18th century. The Polish immigrants have come primarily in the last 200
    years so the links are much closer. Moreover, because the U.S. fought
    Germany in both world wars, there is a lot of unpleasant history involving
    Germans in the U.S. 1. More Americans were killed by Germany than by
    any other country. Steve Sailer even jokes that all the good Germans came
    to America leaving only the bad Germans in Europe. 2. German nationals
    were placed in internment camps during both wars, more during
    WW I, 3. The anti-German hatred was so intense around 1914-5 that a number
    of German nationals were lynched in the state of Missouri.

    In contrast, Polish aristocrats and nobility had friendships at the highest
    levels of American politics. For example, Generals Kosciuszko (who designed
    West Point) and Pulaski were friends with Washington and Jefferson. General
    Krzyzanowski fought in the Civil War. Paderewski, Polish nobleman and
    a great pianist, was close friends with President Woodrow Wilson, and made
    a decisive contribution to Poland’s independence. Polish aristocrat Alfred
    Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, socialized after WW I with
    (the future General) Patton. Both were accomplished cavalry men and
    swordsmen, i.e., not mere intellectuals but also men of action. And, of course,
    another Polish aristocrat, Zbigniew Brzezinski, played an important role
    in recent American politics. Noblemen and aristocrats were such a novelty in the
    U.S. that they easily found access to the highest levels of power. Many people
    wanted to be friends with them.

    Tom Malinowski whom I mentioned, has a famous name, but I don’t know
    if he is related to Bronislaw Malinowski, one of the founders of
    anthropology. However, he had already served in the Obama
    administration. He is now a Democratic congressman from New Jersey.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Anon 2

    You can't compare accomplishments of Polish Americans with that of German Americans. Couple orders of magnitude difference. If you live in Chicago you may get a false impression because Polish names pop up frequently in media, however do not have a political muscle that would be proportional to their numbers. Since Dan Rostenkowski was brought down there is no prominent Polish politician from there. The congresswoman with Polish sounding name, Jan Schakovsky, is Jewish. Stop fantasizing and confabulating and come back down to earth. Nowadays Poles in America have no power and no political lobby to speak of.

    But there are good things that can be said about Polish Americans from the point of view of America which is that Poles successfully assimilated and ceased to be a troublesome ethnic minority. In this process they were helped by negative attitudes they evoked. It was no different with Germans who were forced to undergo accelerated assimilation at record speeds to escape the stigmatization during and after the WWI.

    Replies: @Anon 2

  265. @One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich

    Who initiated this Manifesto? BHL! That and the ritual evocation of the 30’s, of the ‘explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism’ should have given us a hint where the idea came from (I rely on Wikipedia):

    “The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism—or Ligue Internationale Contre le Racisme et l’Antisémitisme (LICRA) in French—was established in 1927, and is opposed to intolerance, xenophobia and exclusion.
    In 1927, French journalist Bernard Lecache created “The League Against Pogroms”, and launched a media campaign in support of Sholom Schwartzbard who assassinated Symon Petliura on 25 May 1926 in the Latin Quarter of Paris. Schwartzbard viewed Petliura as responsible for numerous pogroms in Ukraine. After Schwartzbard’s acquittal, the league evolved into LICA (Ligue internationale contre l’antisémitisme—or international league against anti-semitism). Schwartzbard was a prominent activist in this organization.
    In 1931, LICA already counted 10000 subscribers all over France. It was a solid power during the battle between leagues in February 1934. After 1932, LICA evolved into LICRA, but the name was officially changed only in 1979 during the long (1968–1992) presidency of Jean Pierre-Bloch.
    In September 1939, as the Second World War started, numerous LICRA subscribers mobilised, and many were members of the Resistance throughout the war. During the German occupation of France, LICRA was banned by the Vichy government and had to regroup clandestinely to help the victims of Nazi racial measures, notably by hiding them away from Paris, by providing them with fake IDs, and by helping them escape to Switzerland, Spain and England*.
    In 1972, a law authorized LICRA to counsel victims of racist acts during their court appearances. LICRA received considerable media attention during the case of LICRA v. Yahoo!, in which it brought charges against Yahoo! for selling Nazi memorabilia to people in France in violation of French laws proposed, passed, and used by and for LICRA.
    The LICRA keeps fighting neonazism and Holocaust denial. This was demonstrated when it supported the Klarsfeld couple (Serge and Beate Klarsfeld), and during Klaus Barbie’s trial in 1987.
    In the last few years, LICRA intensified its international actions by opening sections abroad, in Switzerland, in Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Germany, in Portugal, in Quebec and more recently in Congo Brazzaville and in Austria.
    Since 1999, with the arrival of president Patrick Gaubert, LICRA has extended its area of action. It now addresses social issues such as work discrimination, citizenship, and disadvantaged youth”.

    *Did they have any relation (rhetorical question!) with “The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (JAC, Russian: Еврейский антифашистский комитет Yevreysky antifashistsky komitet, ЕАК)… organized by the Jewish Bund (General Jewish Labour Bund in Lithuania, Poland and Russia – Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund in Litah, Poyln un Rusland) leaders Henryk Erlich and Victor Alter**, upon an initiative of Soviet authorities, in fall 1941, designed to influence international public opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West, only to be “arrested on trumped-up spying charges, tortured, tried in secret proceedings, and executed in the basement of Lubyanka Prison” by Stalin and elements of the KGB “worried about their influence and connections with the West” after all they did for the crushing of the “Fascist Beast”? When the ‘stunned’ West realized, all of a sudden, that the atavistic ‘pogromism’ of the Russians did not die out?
    ** Among the signatories of the Manifesto is Adam Michnik. ‘Papa’ Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his ‘Mama’ Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children’s-book author. His step-brother on his mother’s side, Stefan Michnik, was a Stalinist military judge in the 1950s, who passed sentence, including executions, in politically-motivated trials of members of Polish anti Nazi resistance fighters (later formally implicated in zbrodnie komunistyczne (“communist crimes”) by Polish courts. Michnik’s newspaper,’Gazeta Wyborcza’, combated nationalistic slant of Polish clergy and would spotlight incidents of sexual abuse perpetrated by the clergy, which was interpreted by those still strongly attached to the Catholicism as an assault on the Church and, in consequence, alienated a large portion of the population.

    See the meme? ‘Pogroms>Tsars>Kremlin>Stalin>Putin= Holocaust”

    • Agree: Epigon
    • Replies: @utu
    @Seraphim

    Good post. The left has a long tradition and operational know-how they can keep recycling. If it works why change it. They keep reusing old templates in propaganda just like our iffen above.

    ‘Papa’ Ozjasz Szechter - The father of Michael T. Kaufman (NYT correspondence in Warsaw in 1980s) was doing time with Ozjasz Szechter for communism in the pre WWII Poland. Adam Michnik got his seed money to start the most important paper in Poland (Gazeta Wyborcza) from the New York Review of Books. Helena Łuczywo who runs the media empire of Gazeta Wyborcza is a daughter of Fredynand Chaber who was in charge of communist propaganda in the post war communist Poland while in the Department of Public Security.

    The so called intellectual elite currently dominat in Poland has it roots in Stalinist mostly Jewish apparatchiks and functionaries (frequently working for secret police like Luczywo's father or Michnik's brother) who after 1956 or 1968 were purged but their offspring like Adam Michnk and Helen Luczywo became active in trotskyist 'communism with human face' opposition to the communist apparatus that purged their fathers and mothers in 1960s and 1970s which lead to the Solidarity revolt in 1980s.

    The Gazeat Wyborcza and media spawned by it did such an excellent job on Poles that average Poles do not know what is right or left or what is up or down anymore.

    Polish Jews who worked for Secret Police in communist Poland even played prominent roles among German intellectuals. Marcel Reich-Ranicki also left Poland after the anti-Stalinist purge of the communist apparatus in 1956. In Germany he became one of the most important and influential literary critic and political commentator.

  266. @Seraphim
    @One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich

    Who initiated this Manifesto? BHL! That and the ritual evocation of the 30's, of the 'explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism' should have given us a hint where the idea came from (I rely on Wikipedia):

    "The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism—or Ligue Internationale Contre le Racisme et l'Antisémitisme (LICRA) in French—was established in 1927, and is opposed to intolerance, xenophobia and exclusion.
    In 1927, French journalist Bernard Lecache created "The League Against Pogroms", and launched a media campaign in support of Sholom Schwartzbard who assassinated Symon Petliura on 25 May 1926 in the Latin Quarter of Paris. Schwartzbard viewed Petliura as responsible for numerous pogroms in Ukraine. After Schwartzbard's acquittal, the league evolved into LICA (Ligue internationale contre l'antisémitisme—or international league against anti-semitism). Schwartzbard was a prominent activist in this organization.
    In 1931, LICA already counted 10000 subscribers all over France. It was a solid power during the battle between leagues in February 1934. After 1932, LICA evolved into LICRA, but the name was officially changed only in 1979 during the long (1968–1992) presidency of Jean Pierre-Bloch.
    In September 1939, as the Second World War started, numerous LICRA subscribers mobilised, and many were members of the Resistance throughout the war. During the German occupation of France, LICRA was banned by the Vichy government and had to regroup clandestinely to help the victims of Nazi racial measures, notably by hiding them away from Paris, by providing them with fake IDs, and by helping them escape to Switzerland, Spain and England*.
    In 1972, a law authorized LICRA to counsel victims of racist acts during their court appearances. LICRA received considerable media attention during the case of LICRA v. Yahoo!, in which it brought charges against Yahoo! for selling Nazi memorabilia to people in France in violation of French laws proposed, passed, and used by and for LICRA.
    The LICRA keeps fighting neonazism and Holocaust denial. This was demonstrated when it supported the Klarsfeld couple (Serge and Beate Klarsfeld), and during Klaus Barbie's trial in 1987.
    In the last few years, LICRA intensified its international actions by opening sections abroad, in Switzerland, in Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Germany, in Portugal, in Quebec and more recently in Congo Brazzaville and in Austria.
    Since 1999, with the arrival of president Patrick Gaubert, LICRA has extended its area of action. It now addresses social issues such as work discrimination, citizenship, and disadvantaged youth".

    *Did they have any relation (rhetorical question!) with "The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (JAC, Russian: Еврейский антифашистский комитет Yevreysky antifashistsky komitet, ЕАК)... organized by the Jewish Bund (General Jewish Labour Bund in Lithuania, Poland and Russia - Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund in Litah, Poyln un Rusland) leaders Henryk Erlich and Victor Alter**, upon an initiative of Soviet authorities, in fall 1941, designed to influence international public opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West, only to be "arrested on trumped-up spying charges, tortured, tried in secret proceedings, and executed in the basement of Lubyanka Prison" by Stalin and elements of the KGB "worried about their influence and connections with the West" after all they did for the crushing of the "Fascist Beast"? When the 'stunned' West realized, all of a sudden, that the atavistic 'pogromism' of the Russians did not die out?
    ** Among the signatories of the Manifesto is Adam Michnik. 'Papa' Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his 'Mama' Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children's-book author. His step-brother on his mother's side, Stefan Michnik, was a Stalinist military judge in the 1950s, who passed sentence, including executions, in politically-motivated trials of members of Polish anti Nazi resistance fighters (later formally implicated in zbrodnie komunistyczne ("communist crimes") by Polish courts. Michnik's newspaper,'Gazeta Wyborcza', combated nationalistic slant of Polish clergy and would spotlight incidents of sexual abuse perpetrated by the clergy, which was interpreted by those still strongly attached to the Catholicism as an assault on the Church and, in consequence, alienated a large portion of the population.

    See the meme? 'Pogroms>Tsars>Kremlin>Stalin>Putin= Holocaust"

    Replies: @utu

    Good post. The left has a long tradition and operational know-how they can keep recycling. If it works why change it. They keep reusing old templates in propaganda just like our iffen above.

    ‘Papa’ Ozjasz Szechter – The father of Michael T. Kaufman (NYT correspondence in Warsaw in 1980s) was doing time with Ozjasz Szechter for communism in the pre WWII Poland. Adam Michnik got his seed money to start the most important paper in Poland (Gazeta Wyborcza) from the New York Review of Books. Helena Łuczywo who runs the media empire of Gazeta Wyborcza is a daughter of Fredynand Chaber who was in charge of communist propaganda in the post war communist Poland while in the Department of Public Security.

    The so called intellectual elite currently dominat in Poland has it roots in Stalinist mostly Jewish apparatchiks and functionaries (frequently working for secret police like Luczywo’s father or Michnik’s brother) who after 1956 or 1968 were purged but their offspring like Adam Michnk and Helen Luczywo became active in trotskyist ‘communism with human face’ opposition to the communist apparatus that purged their fathers and mothers in 1960s and 1970s which lead to the Solidarity revolt in 1980s.

    The Gazeat Wyborcza and media spawned by it did such an excellent job on Poles that average Poles do not know what is right or left or what is up or down anymore.

    Polish Jews who worked for Secret Police in communist Poland even played prominent roles among German intellectuals. Marcel Reich-Ranicki also left Poland after the anti-Stalinist purge of the communist apparatus in 1956. In Germany he became one of the most important and influential literary critic and political commentator.

  267. @Anon 2
    @German_reader

    True. Many Germans began emigrating to the 13 American colonies in the
    18th century. The Polish immigrants have come primarily in the last 200
    years so the links are much closer. Moreover, because the U.S. fought
    Germany in both world wars, there is a lot of unpleasant history involving
    Germans in the U.S. 1. More Americans were killed by Germany than by
    any other country. Steve Sailer even jokes that all the good Germans came
    to America leaving only the bad Germans in Europe. 2. German nationals
    were placed in internment camps during both wars, more during
    WW I, 3. The anti-German hatred was so intense around 1914-5 that a number
    of German nationals were lynched in the state of Missouri.

    In contrast, Polish aristocrats and nobility had friendships at the highest
    levels of American politics. For example, Generals Kosciuszko (who designed
    West Point) and Pulaski were friends with Washington and Jefferson. General
    Krzyzanowski fought in the Civil War. Paderewski, Polish nobleman and
    a great pianist, was close friends with President Woodrow Wilson, and made
    a decisive contribution to Poland’s independence. Polish aristocrat Alfred
    Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, socialized after WW I with
    (the future General) Patton. Both were accomplished cavalry men and
    swordsmen, i.e., not mere intellectuals but also men of action. And, of course,
    another Polish aristocrat, Zbigniew Brzezinski, played an important role
    in recent American politics. Noblemen and aristocrats were such a novelty in the
    U.S. that they easily found access to the highest levels of power. Many people
    wanted to be friends with them.

    Tom Malinowski whom I mentioned, has a famous name, but I don’t know
    if he is related to Bronislaw Malinowski, one of the founders of
    anthropology. However, he had already served in the Obama
    administration. He is now a Democratic congressman from New Jersey.

    Replies: @utu

    You can’t compare accomplishments of Polish Americans with that of German Americans. Couple orders of magnitude difference. If you live in Chicago you may get a false impression because Polish names pop up frequently in media, however do not have a political muscle that would be proportional to their numbers. Since Dan Rostenkowski was brought down there is no prominent Polish politician from there. The congresswoman with Polish sounding name, Jan Schakovsky, is Jewish. Stop fantasizing and confabulating and come back down to earth. Nowadays Poles in America have no power and no political lobby to speak of.

    But there are good things that can be said about Polish Americans from the point of view of America which is that Poles successfully assimilated and ceased to be a troublesome ethnic minority. In this process they were helped by negative attitudes they evoked. It was no different with Germans who were forced to undergo accelerated assimilation at record speeds to escape the stigmatization during and after the WWI.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @utu

    You’re responding to what you imagine I wrote, not to what I actually
    wrote. There are 44 million German Americans, and only 10 million
    Polish Americans (and 15 million Slavic Americans altogether), i.e., 3:1 ratio
    (actually 4:1 ratio if you include 15 million Scandinavian Americans).
    This is the reverse of the 2:1 Slav-Germanic ratio in Europe, which is
    one reason why the Germanics ultimately failed to impose their will
    on the Slavs. So there is no comparison between the two groups in the
    United States. However, this may help answer the question: why is the
    U.S. so violent in international affairs? Since, as the Romans already
    noted, the Germanics have a higher propensity to violence (due perhaps
    to the MAO-A (warrior) gene), the high representation of the Germanics
    in the U.S. population might go a long way toward explaining the violent
    U.S. behavior (highest military budget, highest number of bases, drone
    assassinations, current perpetual war, etc). And for similar reasons
    Germanics have been a problem child in Europe (e.g., continuing German
    obsession with building instruments of destruction).

    Treating human behavior as a function of two variables (IQ and aggression
    level) gives a better (although still inadequate) approximation to
    reality than being obsessed, as many people here are, with merely
    the IQ level. IMHO, since the field is still largely terra incognita, the Slavs
    display a normal (average) level of aggression, about the same as northern
    Italians; Germanics, Brits, and Jews - higher than average, and the French
    (being 1/4 Germanic) - slightly higher than average. The Polish nobility
    (incl. the aristocrats), who believed themselves to have different ancestors
    than the peasants, probably had a higher set point for aggression. Maybe
    that’s why Nietzsche loved the Polish nobles so much (and his sister claimed
    she had the papers to prove their family was descended from Polish
    nobility). In any case, since the Slavs and the Italians have a similar set
    point for aggression, it may explain why Poland and Italy have had a close
    relationship over the centuries. Copernicus studied in Italy, Zanussi is
    a famous Polish film director, and recently there has been talk about
    the Polish-Italian axis in the EU.

    Returning to the US, Polish Americans are reasonably well represented
    in Congress. There were two senators (Mikulski and Murkowski) but
    Barbara Mikulski has recently retired. After the 2018 elections, there
    are now 5-6 Polish-American congressmen (I listed them on Sailer).
    However, in general, the Americans are so aggressive that the Slavic
    Americans have indeed not been as influential in politics as they might
    have been in a more congenial civilization.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @German_reader, @utu

  268. @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.
     

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug's dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today's elite was yesterday's elite, which was yesteryear's elite, and so on ...

    * I'm looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    Replies: @iffen, @Epigon

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR – and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread – explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Epigon


    French revolution co-opted royalist elite?
     
    Members of the other estates supported the 3rd.

    Ironically, some wealthier members of the Second Estate became prominent supporters of liberal and therefore revolutionary ideas. Several factors led to the growth of a small but vocal group of liberal nobles: economic modernisation, the entry of former bourgeoisie into the Second Estate, the growth of the Enlightenment, access to liberal political texts by Rousseau and other philosophes, and the circulation of British and American political ideas. Noblemen like Marquis de Lafayette, the Duke of Noailles and Honore Mirabeau received a liberal education and read the work of Enlightenment authors like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Denis Diderot. In the case of Lafayette, he experienced the successes of the American Revolution first hand, serving as an adjutant to George Washington. These liberal nobles would shortly become prominent leaders of the French Revolution. Liberal ideas could also be found in many of the cahiers de doléances (‘books of grievance’) that were drafted by the Second Estate and submitted to the Estates General in 1789. Many of these grievance ledgers called for a constitution; a few even petitioned to end noble exemptions from taxation.
     
    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/second-estate/

    Many priests welcomed the summoning of the Estates General in mid-1789, where they were well represented (208 of the First Estate delegates at the Estates General were parish priests). In many cahiers de doleance the lower clergy called for greater democracy and consultation in church decision making, as well as a review of the church’s exemption from taxation. The liberalism of the lower clergy was reflected by their actions at the Estates General when 149 of their deputies opted to join the Third Estate to form the National Assembly.
     
    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/first-estate/

    Replies: @Epigon

    , @peterAUS
    @Epigon


    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense.
     
    Agree.

    Wherever/whenever the true change happened "co opting old elite" wasn't the case.
    People wishing to believe otherwise are either naive or, more likely, aren't really looking for a true change. "Cuckservatives" on Al-Light are good example.

    Plenty of them around.
  269. It isn’t just Russia that attracts the irrational hostility of BHL and similar “thinkers”. Just read through their narrative on Serbs and Serbia. My guess is that Orthodoxy of that type, mentality and traditions associated with it makes them foam at their mouths.

    In addition, Serbs have been a much easier target due to overwhelming propaganda and democracy export in the 90s, so they could reveal the full extent of their pathological hate and twisting of facts.

  270. @utu
    @German_reader

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens...

    Replies: @German_reader, @AaronB

    State-level fascism hasn’t arrived yet, but our social elite has been preparing for it for decades. They are in no hurry to make it happen, but they will if they judge it to favor their interests. Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism– using racial resentments, religious bigotry, and the frank irrationality that emerges from stunted masculinity and (economically enforced) permanent adolescence? To ensure that, no matter what else happens during a populist uprising, they’ll have an easy time getting their money out of it. The upper class has convinced the rabble that generational wealth and connections– neither of which the rabble themselves have– are a right; meanwhile, leftists and racial minorities are a source of their misery.

    This society is set up so that, if such events come to pass, the most armed and ready militants will be on the right wing. Not only will this support the elite’s economic goals and keep the proletariat divided against itself, but it will also mean that any revolutionary effort is likely to be overcome by people with such repugnant ideological and cultural aims that they will never gain global sympathy. The upper class would rather have a 95 percent chance of a rightist-racist revolt that no one (present company included) would support than a 25 percent chance of a leftist revolt that would quickly gain global sympathy.

    – Michael O Church blog

    It is amusing to see all the ernest right wingers tell the Left that if they keep on practicing identity politics, whites will begin to also – as if the Left does not know this and want this.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AaronB

    That's just the standard leftie nonsense..."Why can't people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?".
    In reality "elites" and immigrants are allies against the native majority.


    Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism
     
    Total nonsense, the "elites" do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
    I have to admit something like that does raise the question whether your true intention here is to demoralize the nationalist commenters and shame them back into wimpy mainsteam positions.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

  271. @Epigon
    @Swedish Family

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR - and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread - explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @peterAUS

    French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    Members of the other estates supported the 3rd.

    Ironically, some wealthier members of the Second Estate became prominent supporters of liberal and therefore revolutionary ideas. Several factors led to the growth of a small but vocal group of liberal nobles: economic modernisation, the entry of former bourgeoisie into the Second Estate, the growth of the Enlightenment, access to liberal political texts by Rousseau and other philosophes, and the circulation of British and American political ideas. Noblemen like Marquis de Lafayette, the Duke of Noailles and Honore Mirabeau received a liberal education and read the work of Enlightenment authors like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Denis Diderot. In the case of Lafayette, he experienced the successes of the American Revolution first hand, serving as an adjutant to George Washington. These liberal nobles would shortly become prominent leaders of the French Revolution. Liberal ideas could also be found in many of the cahiers de doléances (‘books of grievance’) that were drafted by the Second Estate and submitted to the Estates General in 1789. Many of these grievance ledgers called for a constitution; a few even petitioned to end noble exemptions from taxation.

    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/second-estate/

    Many priests welcomed the summoning of the Estates General in mid-1789, where they were well represented (208 of the First Estate delegates at the Estates General were parish priests). In many cahiers de doleance the lower clergy called for greater democracy and consultation in church decision making, as well as a review of the church’s exemption from taxation. The liberalism of the lower clergy was reflected by their actions at the Estates General when 149 of their deputies opted to join the Third Estate to form the National Assembly.

    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/first-estate/

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Mitleser

    The examples you quoted were hardly the elite and powerbrokers of France - they simply were opportunists looking to climb the ladder and increase the power they wield in the society, or simply adapt and survive through a period which saw many of their peers murdered and exiled. A few nobles and low clergy does not make a royalist elite. Also, France in 1789 and France in 1793 were different to a significant degree.
    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  272. @Mitleser
    @Epigon


    French revolution co-opted royalist elite?
     
    Members of the other estates supported the 3rd.

    Ironically, some wealthier members of the Second Estate became prominent supporters of liberal and therefore revolutionary ideas. Several factors led to the growth of a small but vocal group of liberal nobles: economic modernisation, the entry of former bourgeoisie into the Second Estate, the growth of the Enlightenment, access to liberal political texts by Rousseau and other philosophes, and the circulation of British and American political ideas. Noblemen like Marquis de Lafayette, the Duke of Noailles and Honore Mirabeau received a liberal education and read the work of Enlightenment authors like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Denis Diderot. In the case of Lafayette, he experienced the successes of the American Revolution first hand, serving as an adjutant to George Washington. These liberal nobles would shortly become prominent leaders of the French Revolution. Liberal ideas could also be found in many of the cahiers de doléances (‘books of grievance’) that were drafted by the Second Estate and submitted to the Estates General in 1789. Many of these grievance ledgers called for a constitution; a few even petitioned to end noble exemptions from taxation.
     
    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/second-estate/

    Many priests welcomed the summoning of the Estates General in mid-1789, where they were well represented (208 of the First Estate delegates at the Estates General were parish priests). In many cahiers de doleance the lower clergy called for greater democracy and consultation in church decision making, as well as a review of the church’s exemption from taxation. The liberalism of the lower clergy was reflected by their actions at the Estates General when 149 of their deputies opted to join the Third Estate to form the National Assembly.
     
    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/first-estate/

    Replies: @Epigon

    The examples you quoted were hardly the elite and powerbrokers of France – they simply were opportunists looking to climb the ladder and increase the power they wield in the society, or simply adapt and survive through a period which saw many of their peers murdered and exiled. A few nobles and low clergy does not make a royalist elite. Also, France in 1789 and France in 1793 were different to a significant degree.
    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?
     
    The compromise is not ideological but material: the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance. This works since most people are ideologically agnostic at heart. At present, mass immigration is seen by most Westerners as moral and just. But this is mostly a function of ideological programming -- it could just as easily be framed the other way (its class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent).

    Replies: @songbird, @Beckow

  273. German_reader says:
    @AaronB
    @utu


    State-level fascism hasn’t arrived yet, but our social elite has been preparing for it for decades. They are in no hurry to make it happen, but they will if they judge it to favor their interests. Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism– using racial resentments, religious bigotry, and the frank irrationality that emerges from stunted masculinity and (economically enforced) permanent adolescence? To ensure that, no matter what else happens during a populist uprising, they’ll have an easy time getting their money out of it. The upper class has convinced the rabble that generational wealth and connections– neither of which the rabble themselves have– are a right; meanwhile, leftists and racial minorities are a source of their misery.

    This society is set up so that, if such events come to pass, the most armed and ready militants will be on the right wing. Not only will this support the elite’s economic goals and keep the proletariat divided against itself, but it will also mean that any revolutionary effort is likely to be overcome by people with such repugnant ideological and cultural aims that they will never gain global sympathy. The upper class would rather have a 95 percent chance of a rightist-racist revolt that no one (present company included) would support than a 25 percent chance of a leftist revolt that would quickly gain global sympathy.
     

    - Michael O Church blog

    It is amusing to see all the ernest right wingers tell the Left that if they keep on practicing identity politics, whites will begin to also - as if the Left does not know this and want this.

    Replies: @German_reader

    That’s just the standard leftie nonsense…”Why can’t people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?”.
    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
    I have to admit something like that does raise the question whether your true intention here is to demoralize the nationalist commenters and shame them back into wimpy mainsteam positions.

    • Agree: Epigon, Hyperborean
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @German_reader


    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.
     
    That's exactly it. Elites divide the common people so they cannot form a common front against them.

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
     
    Nothing is more obvious than that these tactics tend to create white racial consciousness. Right wingers point out again and again that if the Lefts stated goal is truly to prevent white racial consciousness, then engaging in identity politics for other races is the worst way to do it. Elites are not stupid. They tend to be unsentimental clear eyed strategizers. They are actively fomenting social division. Ask yourself why. Think logically, without emotion.

    The elites are bringing in immigrants for economic reasons that benefit themselves and to create a divided society distracted by racial conflict. So your first order of business is to confront the elites. If that requires alliances with other races then it's necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do. It keeps you distracted, and it prevents you from forming a united power bloc that might siphon off a portion of the elites - a crucial development.

    You can't fight an alliance of elites, minorities, and large numbers of whites who side with them. If instead of playing identity politics you united in an economic bloc you might have a chance. The elites are terrified of that.

    Deal with the situation as it is rather than how you would wish it be. The presence of large numbers of minorities is now a fact. You can choose to ally with them against the elites and make it in their economic self interest to also oppose further immigration, or you can fight them, distracting you from focusing on the elites, and ensuring that immigration will continue. But a united bloc of whites and minorities that opposed further immigration for economic reasons and focused on creating a more equitable system instead of the current concentration of wealth among the elites would be a powerful force. For that some form of socialism is essential - and the alt-right is allergic to socialism.

    In time, if the racial issue still festers, you can contemplate different political arrangements. But every program has multiple stages. It's called strategy.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That's because your message is negative. The elites want the opposition to have a negative message that attracts low quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @iffen

    , @utu
    @German_reader


    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.
     
    That's pretty accurate. While you know it you still think that going after the immigrants w/o touching the elites may do the job. Populism must be broad against the elites. This is the only way to attract supporters from the other side that is paralyzed by the protective force field extended over minorities and immigrants. The force field gets its energy from the elites. You have to hit the power station first. People must realized that elites are their enemy. And this can be done by focusing on the economic issue not the racial or ethnic issues.

    Even this ”Why can’t people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?” could be a part of strategy to get the initial traction. However in Germany you do not have to do it because immigrants apart from Turks are not politically organized. Your chief target are Germans who do no see the long term consequences of the current process who are paralyzed by the force field.

    It is different in the US. The anti-immigration movement can't exclude Blacks. In the US the only winning strategy would be by getting Blacks on the anti-immigration side. But this won't happen as long as the white anti-immigration side is mostly libertarian, HBDist and IQists consoling themselves by repetitive chants of their IQ superiority with a simultaneous often unwitting homage to their IQ-superior Jewish elite.

    Replies: @German_reader, @dfordoom

  274. @German_reader
    @AaronB

    That's just the standard leftie nonsense..."Why can't people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?".
    In reality "elites" and immigrants are allies against the native majority.


    Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism
     
    Total nonsense, the "elites" do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
    I have to admit something like that does raise the question whether your true intention here is to demoralize the nationalist commenters and shame them back into wimpy mainsteam positions.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    That’s exactly it. Elites divide the common people so they cannot form a common front against them.

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.

    Nothing is more obvious than that these tactics tend to create white racial consciousness. Right wingers point out again and again that if the Lefts stated goal is truly to prevent white racial consciousness, then engaging in identity politics for other races is the worst way to do it. Elites are not stupid. They tend to be unsentimental clear eyed strategizers. They are actively fomenting social division. Ask yourself why. Think logically, without emotion.

    The elites are bringing in immigrants for economic reasons that benefit themselves and to create a divided society distracted by racial conflict. So your first order of business is to confront the elites. If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do. It keeps you distracted, and it prevents you from forming a united power bloc that might siphon off a portion of the elites – a crucial development.

    You can’t fight an alliance of elites, minorities, and large numbers of whites who side with them. If instead of playing identity politics you united in an economic bloc you might have a chance. The elites are terrified of that.

    Deal with the situation as it is rather than how you would wish it be. The presence of large numbers of minorities is now a fact. You can choose to ally with them against the elites and make it in their economic self interest to also oppose further immigration, or you can fight them, distracting you from focusing on the elites, and ensuring that immigration will continue. But a united bloc of whites and minorities that opposed further immigration for economic reasons and focused on creating a more equitable system instead of the current concentration of wealth among the elites would be a powerful force. For that some form of socialism is essential – and the alt-right is allergic to socialism.

    In time, if the racial issue still festers, you can contemplate different political arrangements. But every program has multiple stages. It’s called strategy.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative. The elites want the opposition to have a negative message that attracts low quality people.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AaronB


    If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do.
     
    That kind of analysis is very American. And maybe it even made sense at some point in American history and in certain regions. Yes, maybe blacks and poor whites in the American South in the late 19th/early 20th century should have focused on common economic interests and teamed up against the white elites (who may indeed have used the race issue to deflect criticism of their economic policies). And maybe to some extent a similar analysis might even apply to the US today, though it seems doubtful to me.
    But it has little to do with the situation in Europe. I have nothing in common with the hordes that have swarmed into my country in the last few years. They are invaders and parasites, and they have to go back. There can never be any common interest with them, and anybody who pretends otherwise is in thrall to foolish illusions or fundamentally dishonest.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative.
     
    "I want my nation to live" is a supremely positive message.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @iffen
    @AaronB

    Who are you and how did you steal AB's moniker?

  275. German_reader says:
    @AaronB
    @German_reader


    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.
     
    That's exactly it. Elites divide the common people so they cannot form a common front against them.

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
     
    Nothing is more obvious than that these tactics tend to create white racial consciousness. Right wingers point out again and again that if the Lefts stated goal is truly to prevent white racial consciousness, then engaging in identity politics for other races is the worst way to do it. Elites are not stupid. They tend to be unsentimental clear eyed strategizers. They are actively fomenting social division. Ask yourself why. Think logically, without emotion.

    The elites are bringing in immigrants for economic reasons that benefit themselves and to create a divided society distracted by racial conflict. So your first order of business is to confront the elites. If that requires alliances with other races then it's necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do. It keeps you distracted, and it prevents you from forming a united power bloc that might siphon off a portion of the elites - a crucial development.

    You can't fight an alliance of elites, minorities, and large numbers of whites who side with them. If instead of playing identity politics you united in an economic bloc you might have a chance. The elites are terrified of that.

    Deal with the situation as it is rather than how you would wish it be. The presence of large numbers of minorities is now a fact. You can choose to ally with them against the elites and make it in their economic self interest to also oppose further immigration, or you can fight them, distracting you from focusing on the elites, and ensuring that immigration will continue. But a united bloc of whites and minorities that opposed further immigration for economic reasons and focused on creating a more equitable system instead of the current concentration of wealth among the elites would be a powerful force. For that some form of socialism is essential - and the alt-right is allergic to socialism.

    In time, if the racial issue still festers, you can contemplate different political arrangements. But every program has multiple stages. It's called strategy.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That's because your message is negative. The elites want the opposition to have a negative message that attracts low quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @iffen

    If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do.

    That kind of analysis is very American. And maybe it even made sense at some point in American history and in certain regions. Yes, maybe blacks and poor whites in the American South in the late 19th/early 20th century should have focused on common economic interests and teamed up against the white elites (who may indeed have used the race issue to deflect criticism of their economic policies). And maybe to some extent a similar analysis might even apply to the US today, though it seems doubtful to me.
    But it has little to do with the situation in Europe. I have nothing in common with the hordes that have swarmed into my country in the last few years. They are invaders and parasites, and they have to go back. There can never be any common interest with them, and anybody who pretends otherwise is in thrall to foolish illusions or fundamentally dishonest.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative.

    “I want my nation to live” is a supremely positive message.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @German_reader

    While the two situations are different, I don't see by how much.

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism. What if refusing to do so leaves all the power in the hands of the elites to continue immigration as you squabble among yourselves. What if forming a broad based economic front is your only chance. Or, a broad based front that excluded most recent immigrants but was explicitly communal and economic based.

    As for a positive message, what if you immediately cut out all the negative stuff about other races - which today forms the bulk of the alt-right message - and focus only on the positive message of preserving your nation, with a strong socialistic and communitarian angle. An angle that isn't just selfish, but focuses strongly on community and economic equity.

    Prominent alt-right leader Vox Day despises Nazism because it was socialistic, promotes free market capitalism, focuses heavily on how terrible the other races are - he is channelling purely negative emotion, not positive. This is typical, and will scare away high quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

  276. @German_reader
    @AaronB


    If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do.
     
    That kind of analysis is very American. And maybe it even made sense at some point in American history and in certain regions. Yes, maybe blacks and poor whites in the American South in the late 19th/early 20th century should have focused on common economic interests and teamed up against the white elites (who may indeed have used the race issue to deflect criticism of their economic policies). And maybe to some extent a similar analysis might even apply to the US today, though it seems doubtful to me.
    But it has little to do with the situation in Europe. I have nothing in common with the hordes that have swarmed into my country in the last few years. They are invaders and parasites, and they have to go back. There can never be any common interest with them, and anybody who pretends otherwise is in thrall to foolish illusions or fundamentally dishonest.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative.
     
    "I want my nation to live" is a supremely positive message.

    Replies: @AaronB

    While the two situations are different, I don’t see by how much.

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism. What if refusing to do so leaves all the power in the hands of the elites to continue immigration as you squabble among yourselves. What if forming a broad based economic front is your only chance. Or, a broad based front that excluded most recent immigrants but was explicitly communal and economic based.

    As for a positive message, what if you immediately cut out all the negative stuff about other races – which today forms the bulk of the alt-right message – and focus only on the positive message of preserving your nation, with a strong socialistic and communitarian angle. An angle that isn’t just selfish, but focuses strongly on community and economic equity.

    Prominent alt-right leader Vox Day despises Nazism because it was socialistic, promotes free market capitalism, focuses heavily on how terrible the other races are – he is channelling purely negative emotion, not positive. This is typical, and will scare away high quality people.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AaronB


    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants.
     
    You can't form an alliance with the kind of "refugee" trash I was writing about, the present system suits them perfectly...to pretend that they're somehow "exploited" (instead of exploiting German taxpayers) is a grotesque inversion of reality; in fact they're extremely privileged.
    In the German context the sort of alliance you're thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population (though even that would be very difficult and fraught with problems, since many Turks have no interest in immigration restriction that would keep them from importing brides from the old country etc.; many of them are also soft Islamists and/or Turkish chauvinists who despise German society). So obviously a nationalist movement might have to moderate itself and can't be full Nazi. But it's an illusion that one can somehow ignore the fundamental clash of interests between natives and immigrants completely and just focus on bankers, the capitalist system or whatever and then there'll be multiculti rainbow harmony.
    As for the American alt-right, I don't have a positive impression of that movement and your criticism may have merit. iirc I only looked once at Vox Day's site, he seemed like an irrelevant clown, like so many of those alt-right internet celebrities.

    Replies: @iffen, @AaronB

    , @Beckow
    @AaronB


    ...the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism.
     
    To some extent that happens naturally anyway. But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World - their relatives and friends - to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done? For most of them free migration and getting into the West is a lot more important than any economic issues. Plus the elites (and fools) make sure that most of them are not on the labor market. That is also not accidental.

    forming a broad based economic front is your only chance
     
    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of 'organising', or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don't get that, you don't understand any of this.

    Your point about negative stuff about the 'others' is true. But in an all-out fight it will be impossible to control. It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive. I agree that the elites are using it, but it is not that easy to prevent, so discussing it is mostly a waste of time. Yeah, some of it is ugly, well so is a lot of other stuff.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @AaronB

  277. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.
     
    Really? I don't think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms - a 'cosmopolitan' plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that's just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don't think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: 'and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin...'. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person - he literally just follows the food.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @reiner Tor, @LH

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    This is true, also due to his own choice. He does not allow translations of his (French written) books to the Czech language.

  278. German_reader says:
    @AaronB
    @German_reader

    While the two situations are different, I don't see by how much.

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism. What if refusing to do so leaves all the power in the hands of the elites to continue immigration as you squabble among yourselves. What if forming a broad based economic front is your only chance. Or, a broad based front that excluded most recent immigrants but was explicitly communal and economic based.

    As for a positive message, what if you immediately cut out all the negative stuff about other races - which today forms the bulk of the alt-right message - and focus only on the positive message of preserving your nation, with a strong socialistic and communitarian angle. An angle that isn't just selfish, but focuses strongly on community and economic equity.

    Prominent alt-right leader Vox Day despises Nazism because it was socialistic, promotes free market capitalism, focuses heavily on how terrible the other races are - he is channelling purely negative emotion, not positive. This is typical, and will scare away high quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants.

    You can’t form an alliance with the kind of “refugee” trash I was writing about, the present system suits them perfectly…to pretend that they’re somehow “exploited” (instead of exploiting German taxpayers) is a grotesque inversion of reality; in fact they’re extremely privileged.
    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population (though even that would be very difficult and fraught with problems, since many Turks have no interest in immigration restriction that would keep them from importing brides from the old country etc.; many of them are also soft Islamists and/or Turkish chauvinists who despise German society). So obviously a nationalist movement might have to moderate itself and can’t be full Nazi. But it’s an illusion that one can somehow ignore the fundamental clash of interests between natives and immigrants completely and just focus on bankers, the capitalist system or whatever and then there’ll be multiculti rainbow harmony.
    As for the American alt-right, I don’t have a positive impression of that movement and your criticism may have merit. iirc I only looked once at Vox Day’s site, he seemed like an irrelevant clown, like so many of those alt-right internet celebrities.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population


    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn't you support it?

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @AaronB
    @German_reader

    You're right that the current system benefits the new immigrants, and of course that's by design. But I do wonder if you can't form an alliance nevertheless, by also offering to benefit them, and in a way that affects their children in the long term (who, at a certain point, will be exploited. That's why they've been brought in)

    But you may have a point about the recent immigrants to Germany - they are too few and too recent, not yet politically or economically entrenched, and so it may not be necessary to include them in any alliance. It requires thought.

    But the larger point stands - a broad based economic front with a communitarian angle cutting across racial and ethnic lines and including all large reasonably entrenched communities (realism), emphasizing the positive over the negative, and discarding the HBD and IQ crap (purely negative emotions), and directed against the current elite set up. In the US this would definitely include Hispanics.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  279. @AaronB
    @German_reader

    While the two situations are different, I don't see by how much.

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism. What if refusing to do so leaves all the power in the hands of the elites to continue immigration as you squabble among yourselves. What if forming a broad based economic front is your only chance. Or, a broad based front that excluded most recent immigrants but was explicitly communal and economic based.

    As for a positive message, what if you immediately cut out all the negative stuff about other races - which today forms the bulk of the alt-right message - and focus only on the positive message of preserving your nation, with a strong socialistic and communitarian angle. An angle that isn't just selfish, but focuses strongly on community and economic equity.

    Prominent alt-right leader Vox Day despises Nazism because it was socialistic, promotes free market capitalism, focuses heavily on how terrible the other races are - he is channelling purely negative emotion, not positive. This is typical, and will scare away high quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

    …the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism.

    To some extent that happens naturally anyway. But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done? For most of them free migration and getting into the West is a lot more important than any economic issues. Plus the elites (and fools) make sure that most of them are not on the labor market. That is also not accidental.

    forming a broad based economic front is your only chance

    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand any of this.

    Your point about negative stuff about the ‘others‘ is true. But in an all-out fight it will be impossible to control. It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive. I agree that the elites are using it, but it is not that easy to prevent, so discussing it is mostly a waste of time. Yeah, some of it is ugly, well so is a lot of other stuff.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Beckow

    Agree.

    Especially with:
    "...it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done?"

    and

    "...It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor."

    , @AaronB
    @Beckow


    But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done?
     
    All alliances are formed by making it in every party's self-interest. The leaders and elites of these immigrant communities can be offered full national acceptance and economic assistance (I know, but it can be phased out). They can also be made to understand that further immigration will harm them and their children economically (lots of Hispanics in the US don't want more immigration), and that their children, the next generation, will feel exploited by their reduced status and opportunities.

    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand any of this.
     
    Sure, that's exactly why the elites are bringing in a huge supply of labor and fomenting racial resentments.

    Starting by ending the influx of cheap labor would be the ideal solution, but what if the elites have made that impossible, and the more you focus purely on that, the more you play into elite hands.

    What if strategy requires of us paradoxical thinking - to end the influx you must paradoxically ally with whoever is already in, as the first stage in a multi-stage plan. Strategic alliances can even be reversed. They can be a stage.

    It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive.
     
    Of course its naive, which is why that response is deliberately being engineered by the elites, who are anything but naive.

    Of course the migrant communities are self-serving - the task is to make their self-serving behavior favor you not the elites.

    Its just realism.

    Replies: @AaronB

  280. @AaronB
    @German_reader


    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.
     
    That's exactly it. Elites divide the common people so they cannot form a common front against them.

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
     
    Nothing is more obvious than that these tactics tend to create white racial consciousness. Right wingers point out again and again that if the Lefts stated goal is truly to prevent white racial consciousness, then engaging in identity politics for other races is the worst way to do it. Elites are not stupid. They tend to be unsentimental clear eyed strategizers. They are actively fomenting social division. Ask yourself why. Think logically, without emotion.

    The elites are bringing in immigrants for economic reasons that benefit themselves and to create a divided society distracted by racial conflict. So your first order of business is to confront the elites. If that requires alliances with other races then it's necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do. It keeps you distracted, and it prevents you from forming a united power bloc that might siphon off a portion of the elites - a crucial development.

    You can't fight an alliance of elites, minorities, and large numbers of whites who side with them. If instead of playing identity politics you united in an economic bloc you might have a chance. The elites are terrified of that.

    Deal with the situation as it is rather than how you would wish it be. The presence of large numbers of minorities is now a fact. You can choose to ally with them against the elites and make it in their economic self interest to also oppose further immigration, or you can fight them, distracting you from focusing on the elites, and ensuring that immigration will continue. But a united bloc of whites and minorities that opposed further immigration for economic reasons and focused on creating a more equitable system instead of the current concentration of wealth among the elites would be a powerful force. For that some form of socialism is essential - and the alt-right is allergic to socialism.

    In time, if the racial issue still festers, you can contemplate different political arrangements. But every program has multiple stages. It's called strategy.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That's because your message is negative. The elites want the opposition to have a negative message that attracts low quality people.

    Replies: @German_reader, @iffen

    Who are you and how did you steal AB’s moniker?

  281. @German_reader
    @AaronB


    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants.
     
    You can't form an alliance with the kind of "refugee" trash I was writing about, the present system suits them perfectly...to pretend that they're somehow "exploited" (instead of exploiting German taxpayers) is a grotesque inversion of reality; in fact they're extremely privileged.
    In the German context the sort of alliance you're thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population (though even that would be very difficult and fraught with problems, since many Turks have no interest in immigration restriction that would keep them from importing brides from the old country etc.; many of them are also soft Islamists and/or Turkish chauvinists who despise German society). So obviously a nationalist movement might have to moderate itself and can't be full Nazi. But it's an illusion that one can somehow ignore the fundamental clash of interests between natives and immigrants completely and just focus on bankers, the capitalist system or whatever and then there'll be multiculti rainbow harmony.
    As for the American alt-right, I don't have a positive impression of that movement and your criticism may have merit. iirc I only looked once at Vox Day's site, he seemed like an irrelevant clown, like so many of those alt-right internet celebrities.

    Replies: @iffen, @AaronB

    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population

    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen


    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?
     
    Where did I write that I wouldn't support it?
    However it's not like one could just conjure something like this into existence by sheer good will. There are also issues beyond German control, notably the attempts by Erdogan's government to influence Turkish minorities abroad.

    Replies: @iffen

  282. German_reader says:
    @iffen
    @German_reader

    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population


    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn't you support it?

    Replies: @German_reader

    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?
    However it’s not like one could just conjure something like this into existence by sheer good will. There are also issues beyond German control, notably the attempts by Erdogan’s government to influence Turkish minorities abroad.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?

    If the populist/nationalist political movement continues to grow, won't people like you have to choose between support for a populism based on narrow race/ethnic grounds as opposed to a more broad based national citizenship model?

    Replies: @German_reader

  283. @Epigon
    @Mitleser

    The examples you quoted were hardly the elite and powerbrokers of France - they simply were opportunists looking to climb the ladder and increase the power they wield in the society, or simply adapt and survive through a period which saw many of their peers murdered and exiled. A few nobles and low clergy does not make a royalist elite. Also, France in 1789 and France in 1793 were different to a significant degree.
    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    The compromise is not ideological but material: the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance. This works since most people are ideologically agnostic at heart. At present, mass immigration is seen by most Westerners as moral and just. But this is mostly a function of ideological programming — it could just as easily be framed the other way (its class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent).

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Swedish Family

    I really doubt if it is most. Maybe, most pols? But even then I think it has more to do with greed, cowardice (though rational), shortsightedness, and vanity.

    , @Beckow
    @Swedish Family


    ...the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance
     
    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything - it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    most people are ideologically agnostic at heart
     
    Basically. Most people are opportunistic conformists because it is by far the best evolutionary strategy. Unfortunately it is not a very noble way to live one's life.

    ...framed the other way: class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent
     
    As recently as 1-2 generations ago that was the dominant elite paradigm: they were the guardians. Then they realised that without the Third World cheap labor their costs would just keep on going up (inflation in the 70's) and their political power would decline (uppity middle and working classes). So they engineered a massive labor over-supply change. Welcome to globalism. That and their kids went LGBQ-whatever.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  284. @Beckow
    @AaronB


    ...the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism.
     
    To some extent that happens naturally anyway. But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World - their relatives and friends - to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done? For most of them free migration and getting into the West is a lot more important than any economic issues. Plus the elites (and fools) make sure that most of them are not on the labor market. That is also not accidental.

    forming a broad based economic front is your only chance
     
    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of 'organising', or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don't get that, you don't understand any of this.

    Your point about negative stuff about the 'others' is true. But in an all-out fight it will be impossible to control. It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive. I agree that the elites are using it, but it is not that easy to prevent, so discussing it is mostly a waste of time. Yeah, some of it is ugly, well so is a lot of other stuff.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @AaronB

    Agree.

    Especially with:
    “…it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done?”

    and

    “…It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor.”

  285. @Epigon
    @Swedish Family

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR - and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread - explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.

    Replies: @Mitleser, @peterAUS

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense.

    Agree.

    Wherever/whenever the true change happened “co opting old elite” wasn’t the case.
    People wishing to believe otherwise are either naive or, more likely, aren’t really looking for a true change. “Cuckservatives” on Al-Light are good example.

    Plenty of them around.

  286. @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?
     
    The compromise is not ideological but material: the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance. This works since most people are ideologically agnostic at heart. At present, mass immigration is seen by most Westerners as moral and just. But this is mostly a function of ideological programming -- it could just as easily be framed the other way (its class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent).

    Replies: @songbird, @Beckow

    I really doubt if it is most. Maybe, most pols? But even then I think it has more to do with greed, cowardice (though rational), shortsightedness, and vanity.

  287. Just quickly scrolling the comments – it seems German Reader is at least more correct than AaronB (with this new socialist conspiracy about elites).

    We are all here elites to some extent, as the opportunities for our generation were comparatively quite good. The important thing is to maintain current opportunities and quality of life.

    Open borders and flooding with people of the third-world, has potential to reduce political stability and damage our opportunities and quality of life to a greater or lesser extent (in countries it already has diminished the society – for example, with all the problems in France).

    If there is need for more workers for certain industries, this could be by rich countries achieved at least in a managed and controlled way.

    All the world wants to go to richer countries. So if and when rich countries it is desirable to allow immigrants, they are the one in the position to choose only what they consider higher human capital.

    But maybe there is already some idiocracy now – when this kind of easy problem of building immigration filters, cannot be solved or discussed in a normal way. (And Trump wasn’t necessary helpful in the way he discussed this situation in relation to Mexican immigration to America).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    We are all here elites to some extent
     
    Certainly not!
    Agree with the rest of your comment.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    You don't even have to insult the group. You could have and convey a relatively high opinion of them and they would still be greatly offended as a group of interlopers. Individual exceptions, but it holds true of all groups, even whites in China or Japan. And certainly of Chinese and Japanese in America or Europe.

    They take the message as their insult, so it doesn't matter what Trump said, unless he was saying "We need more Mexicans!" But the media would have been strongly against him, if he ever said "Less Africans and Arabs!"

    Replies: @Swedish Family

  288. @Dmitry
    Just quickly scrolling the comments - it seems German Reader is at least more correct than AaronB (with this new socialist conspiracy about elites).

    We are all here elites to some extent, as the opportunities for our generation were comparatively quite good. The important thing is to maintain current opportunities and quality of life.

    Open borders and flooding with people of the third-world, has potential to reduce political stability and damage our opportunities and quality of life to a greater or lesser extent (in countries it already has diminished the society - for example, with all the problems in France).

    If there is need for more workers for certain industries, this could be by rich countries achieved at least in a managed and controlled way.

    All the world wants to go to richer countries. So if and when rich countries it is desirable to allow immigrants, they are the one in the position to choose only what they consider higher human capital.

    But maybe there is already some idiocracy now - when this kind of easy problem of building immigration filters, cannot be solved or discussed in a normal way. (And Trump wasn't necessary helpful in the way he discussed this situation in relation to Mexican immigration to America).

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    We are all here elites to some extent

    Certainly not!
    Agree with the rest of your comment.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    "We are all here elites to some extent" (Dmitry) Certainly not! (G_R)

    You are most definitely elite, in an intellectual sense, of this there is no doubt.

    Replies: @German_reader

  289. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.
     
    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don't think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).
     
    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    Replies: @utu, @Dmitry

    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia – the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America – CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere – not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There’s poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...it will collapse from its own absurdness
     
    That seldom happens, more likely we are on a ride to even more absurdity. Once the vocabulary of 'they are dividing us, sabotage, meddling...' is introduced there is no way back. We are in a pure tribal warfare phase. When they used to accuse Russia of invading countries like Georgia or specific misdeeds, discussion was possible - you do this, we do that, let's agree on mutual boundaries. But accusing others of subversion cannot be defined or negotiated - it is a state of mind. Russia is subverting Western unity by its very existence, in that way the signatories are kind of right.

    The intellectuals who signed that letter are not rationally evaluating it - the points you listed are true but they simply don't care. For some like BHL it is deeply embedded in his id. For others it is the fear of disapproval and the subsequent loss of status perks. Next they will ask for bombing of the damn meddlers. Why not, according to them, the stakes are very high.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    What is the most absurd narrative they would have accepted on Trump?

    It is so shocking to hear the Russian narrative repeated, that I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians? China? I have come to the conclusion that the reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle. Race has a kind of reality of it own, often tied to absurdity.

    Trump is seen as the leader of white men, so he must be tarred by a theory that makes a conspiracy including other whites. It all works on a subliminal level like the branding of commercial products.

    I don't even think it is really a revival of the Cold War because many of these people have communist sympathies and so were not successfully primed to hate Russia.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

    , @Swedish Family
    @Dmitry


    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.
     
    Excellent and very fair list. I would add, perhaps, that Russian YouTube abounds with open criticism of the Kremlin, which would come as a surprise to many Westerners. To pick but one example, here is well-known stand-up comedian Danila Poperechny (from 2:27; click the "subtitles" button for English subtitles)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfTlqfHq1d8
    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia – the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.
     
    But most people within the cultural sphere of America won't see it that way.

    Except for the open borders point which is ignored, I can easily predict their riposte to your points.

    And a lot of them (like many Americans and Europeans) 'hate-love' America anyway.
  290. @Swedish Family
    @Epigon


    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?
     
    The compromise is not ideological but material: the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance. This works since most people are ideologically agnostic at heart. At present, mass immigration is seen by most Westerners as moral and just. But this is mostly a function of ideological programming -- it could just as easily be framed the other way (its class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent).

    Replies: @songbird, @Beckow

    …the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance

    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything – it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    most people are ideologically agnostic at heart

    Basically. Most people are opportunistic conformists because it is by far the best evolutionary strategy. Unfortunately it is not a very noble way to live one’s life.

    …framed the other way: class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent

    As recently as 1-2 generations ago that was the dominant elite paradigm: they were the guardians. Then they realised that without the Third World cheap labor their costs would just keep on going up (inflation in the 70’s) and their political power would decline (uppity middle and working classes). So they engineered a massive labor over-supply change. Welcome to globalism. That and their kids went LGBQ-whatever.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Beckow


    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything – it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).
     
    Some people are beyond redemption and will need to be made an example of, true, but surely most billionaires are only in it for the influence, and taking a few steps down the ladder is a small price to pay for keeping that? It seems that this was pretty much Putin's reasoning in the early 00s, with the public clampdowns on Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky to make the other oligarchs fall in line, and it worked well for him.
  291. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.
     
    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia - the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America - CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere - not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There's poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

    Replies: @Beckow, @songbird, @Swedish Family, @Hyperborean

    …it will collapse from its own absurdness

    That seldom happens, more likely we are on a ride to even more absurdity. Once the vocabulary of ‘they are dividing us, sabotage, meddling…‘ is introduced there is no way back. We are in a pure tribal warfare phase. When they used to accuse Russia of invading countries like Georgia or specific misdeeds, discussion was possible – you do this, we do that, let’s agree on mutual boundaries. But accusing others of subversion cannot be defined or negotiated – it is a state of mind. Russia is subverting Western unity by its very existence, in that way the signatories are kind of right.

    The intellectuals who signed that letter are not rationally evaluating it – the points you listed are true but they simply don’t care. For some like BHL it is deeply embedded in his id. For others it is the fear of disapproval and the subsequent loss of status perks. Next they will ask for bombing of the damn meddlers. Why not, according to them, the stakes are very high.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Beckow

    Both "290" and this.....agree.

  292. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.
     
    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.
     
    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don't seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don't quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @utu, @Dmitry

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    A lot of Israeli policy in relation to Arabs is extremely liberal and multicultural. And Israeli method of military action, is perceived more as weakness by many Arabs since at least the 1990s.

    Any nationalists trying to live vicariously through Israeli policy, will be disappointed by de facto liberal multinational state. They will sit in the cafe in Tel Aviv and listen to the mosque.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea

    There could be some really postmodernist combinations in some countries like France, such as Muslim parties of the political right.

    France seems like the worst example to follow.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    A lot of Israeli policy in relation to Arabs is extremely liberal and multicultural. And Israeli method of military action, is perceived more as weakness by many Arabs since at least the 1990s.
     
    But that's not how Europeans see it, and I doubt that is how Arabs see it either. Most people will hear about Israeli soldiers shooting yet another Arab or Israel bragging about another aerial bombing campaign.

    There could be some really postmodernist combinations in some countries like France, such as Muslim parties of the political right.

    France seems like the worst example to follow.
     
    Why, France? And, that seems unlikely given the setup of the French political system.

    I am not sure what you mean by 'postmodernist combinations' but the Netherlands already has this absolutely filthy 'Denk' party that combines deceitful multiculturalism with acting as Erdogan's arm in Holland.
  293. @German_reader
    @iffen


    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?
     
    Where did I write that I wouldn't support it?
    However it's not like one could just conjure something like this into existence by sheer good will. There are also issues beyond German control, notably the attempts by Erdogan's government to influence Turkish minorities abroad.

    Replies: @iffen

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?

    If the populist/nationalist political movement continues to grow, won’t people like you have to choose between support for a populism based on narrow race/ethnic grounds as opposed to a more broad based national citizenship model?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen


    won’t people like you have to choose
     
    Maybe, there certainly are limits to what I would be willing to accept. But the entire question is hypothetical right now anyway, since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany) and even "moderate" nationalism is heavily demonized.

    Replies: @iffen, @dfordoom

  294. @Dmitry
    Just quickly scrolling the comments - it seems German Reader is at least more correct than AaronB (with this new socialist conspiracy about elites).

    We are all here elites to some extent, as the opportunities for our generation were comparatively quite good. The important thing is to maintain current opportunities and quality of life.

    Open borders and flooding with people of the third-world, has potential to reduce political stability and damage our opportunities and quality of life to a greater or lesser extent (in countries it already has diminished the society - for example, with all the problems in France).

    If there is need for more workers for certain industries, this could be by rich countries achieved at least in a managed and controlled way.

    All the world wants to go to richer countries. So if and when rich countries it is desirable to allow immigrants, they are the one in the position to choose only what they consider higher human capital.

    But maybe there is already some idiocracy now - when this kind of easy problem of building immigration filters, cannot be solved or discussed in a normal way. (And Trump wasn't necessary helpful in the way he discussed this situation in relation to Mexican immigration to America).

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    You don’t even have to insult the group. You could have and convey a relatively high opinion of them and they would still be greatly offended as a group of interlopers. Individual exceptions, but it holds true of all groups, even whites in China or Japan. And certainly of Chinese and Japanese in America or Europe.

    They take the message as their insult, so it doesn’t matter what Trump said, unless he was saying “We need more Mexicans!” But the media would have been strongly against him, if he ever said “Less Africans and Arabs!”

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @songbird


    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.
     
    Very true. My father lives in Spain for most of the year, and he was oddly offended when I pointed out the obvious fact that too many people like him -- he speaks very little Spanish and mostly mixes with Germans and Dutchmen -- would be bad for Spanish culture. Israel Shamir was right when he wrote that mass immigration should be opposed on principle, no matter whom it involves.

    Replies: @utu

  295. German_reader says:
    @iffen
    @German_reader

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?

    If the populist/nationalist political movement continues to grow, won't people like you have to choose between support for a populism based on narrow race/ethnic grounds as opposed to a more broad based national citizenship model?

    Replies: @German_reader

    won’t people like you have to choose

    Maybe, there certainly are limits to what I would be willing to accept. But the entire question is hypothetical right now anyway, since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany) and even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    You are much more pessimistic than me. Trump faces an uphill battle for re-election, but his base is not going anywhere. The sewer pond scum Romney types may take back control of the Republican Party, but the base will still exercise political power. The economic, social and political conditions that brought forth the new populism are not going away.


    I will defer to you on Europe, but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit, surely the supporters there can see that.

    even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.


    Sure, but you have to give people time to realize, "Hey, there're talking about me."

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that's why it is important to be "moderate." :)

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @dfordoom
    @German_reader


    since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany)
     
    That seems to be the case everywhere. Nationalism/populism makes big gains initially and then hits a ceiling. And the ceiling is always too low to allow any chance of gaining actual power, or even share of actual power.

    Nationalism/populism on its own simply has very little electoral appeal. The reality is that most people don't care enough about such issues to persuade them to change their vote.

    Which would seem to indicate that if nationalists/populists don't find some allies they're doomed to political irrelevance. A broad front would seem to be required.

    Trump is not a counter-example. He was elected mostly because of economic issues. Had he campaigned purely on the Wall and anti-immigration issues he would not have carried a single state.

    Replies: @utu, @Hyperborean

  296. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.
     
    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia - the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America - CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere - not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There's poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

    Replies: @Beckow, @songbird, @Swedish Family, @Hyperborean

    What is the most absurd narrative they would have accepted on Trump?

    It is so shocking to hear the Russian narrative repeated, that I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians? China? I have come to the conclusion that the reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle. Race has a kind of reality of it own, often tied to absurdity.

    Trump is seen as the leader of white men, so he must be tarred by a theory that makes a conspiracy including other whites. It all works on a subliminal level like the branding of commercial products.

    I don’t even think it is really a revival of the Cold War because many of these people have communist sympathies and so were not successfully primed to hate Russia.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @songbird


    ...reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle
     
    The globo-homo coalition needs white villains. They dream, talk, fear and see white men doing bad stuff everywhere. Russians nicely stepped in, there really was no-one else available. (Even I find them a bit too pushy.)

    Trump-Brexit shock was too much - it wasn't supposed to happen. I wonder next time when something bad happens how much crazier they will go.

    This is no longer communicable with the Russia-obsessed and that is scary. Many are literally on a euphoric trip to a lala land where it all ties together behind the scenes, the amount of pathological paranoia is stunning.
    Let's imagine two scenarios:
    1- the narrative is downplayed and declared not conclusive - that's the best case scenario
    2- the narrative is confirmed - really easy to do, just throw a lot of verbiage around day-to-day activities and voila: conspiracy! People meet and talk and there are 140 million evil Russkies that could be pulled in (they all work for Putin)

    In the first scenario the crazies will scream 'cover-up!' and try again and again. In the second scenario they will demand a war. This will be fun, damn social media - who would have thought that they could finish us off so quickly?

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird


    I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians?
     
    It cycles repetitively in some separate topics.

    1. Trump is a Nazi.

    2. Trump hates women.

    3. Trump is agent of Putin.

    4. Trump has an unstable temperament.

    5. Trump is going to destroy the world.

    Maybe, some others.

    I think the most effective is "Trump hates women". But they cannot maintain viewers' attention on this same topic for more than a certain time, so they have to change the program in the cycle every week or so.

    Looking at CNN now, it seems today program is "Trump has an unstable temperament".

    https://i.imgur.com/rMsBocl.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

  297. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    What is the most absurd narrative they would have accepted on Trump?

    It is so shocking to hear the Russian narrative repeated, that I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians? China? I have come to the conclusion that the reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle. Race has a kind of reality of it own, often tied to absurdity.

    Trump is seen as the leader of white men, so he must be tarred by a theory that makes a conspiracy including other whites. It all works on a subliminal level like the branding of commercial products.

    I don't even think it is really a revival of the Cold War because many of these people have communist sympathies and so were not successfully primed to hate Russia.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

    …reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle

    The globo-homo coalition needs white villains. They dream, talk, fear and see white men doing bad stuff everywhere. Russians nicely stepped in, there really was no-one else available. (Even I find them a bit too pushy.)

    Trump-Brexit shock was too much – it wasn’t supposed to happen. I wonder next time when something bad happens how much crazier they will go.

    This is no longer communicable with the Russia-obsessed and that is scary. Many are literally on a euphoric trip to a lala land where it all ties together behind the scenes, the amount of pathological paranoia is stunning.
    Let’s imagine two scenarios:
    1- the narrative is downplayed and declared not conclusive – that’s the best case scenario
    2- the narrative is confirmed – really easy to do, just throw a lot of verbiage around day-to-day activities and voila: conspiracy! People meet and talk and there are 140 million evil Russkies that could be pulled in (they all work for Putin)

    In the first scenario the crazies will scream ‘cover-up!‘ and try again and again. In the second scenario they will demand a war. This will be fun, damn social media – who would have thought that they could finish us off so quickly?

  298. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    We are all here elites to some extent
     
    Certainly not!
    Agree with the rest of your comment.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    “We are all here elites to some extent” (Dmitry) Certainly not! (G_R)

    You are most definitely elite, in an intellectual sense, of this there is no doubt.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @for-the-record

    Thanks, that's very nice, though I don't think I deserve such praise.
    But I think that in an economic or political sense most commenters here aren't genuinely "elite", but more like mostly powerless observers (apart maybe from Thorfinnsson, but he seems to be currently away, probably preparing his presidential campaign).

    Replies: @Beckow

  299. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    What is the most absurd narrative they would have accepted on Trump?

    It is so shocking to hear the Russian narrative repeated, that I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians? China? I have come to the conclusion that the reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle. Race has a kind of reality of it own, often tied to absurdity.

    Trump is seen as the leader of white men, so he must be tarred by a theory that makes a conspiracy including other whites. It all works on a subliminal level like the branding of commercial products.

    I don't even think it is really a revival of the Cold War because many of these people have communist sympathies and so were not successfully primed to hate Russia.

    Replies: @Beckow, @Dmitry

    I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians?

    It cycles repetitively in some separate topics.

    1. Trump is a Nazi.

    2. Trump hates women.

    3. Trump is agent of Putin.

    4. Trump has an unstable temperament.

    5. Trump is going to destroy the world.

    Maybe, some others.

    I think the most effective is “Trump hates women”. But they cannot maintain viewers’ attention on this same topic for more than a certain time, so they have to change the program in the cycle every week or so.

    Looking at CNN now, it seems today program is “Trump has an unstable temperament”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    Check right now front of Washington Post and New York Times - it has almost the same as CNN. They are probably co-ordinating with each other their theme for today? But almost all the articles about Trump.

    https://i.imgur.com/23hzNFx.jpg

    And New York Times

    https://i.imgur.com/DkTc1bu.jpg

  300. @Beckow
    @Dmitry


    ...it will collapse from its own absurdness
     
    That seldom happens, more likely we are on a ride to even more absurdity. Once the vocabulary of 'they are dividing us, sabotage, meddling...' is introduced there is no way back. We are in a pure tribal warfare phase. When they used to accuse Russia of invading countries like Georgia or specific misdeeds, discussion was possible - you do this, we do that, let's agree on mutual boundaries. But accusing others of subversion cannot be defined or negotiated - it is a state of mind. Russia is subverting Western unity by its very existence, in that way the signatories are kind of right.

    The intellectuals who signed that letter are not rationally evaluating it - the points you listed are true but they simply don't care. For some like BHL it is deeply embedded in his id. For others it is the fear of disapproval and the subsequent loss of status perks. Next they will ask for bombing of the damn meddlers. Why not, according to them, the stakes are very high.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Both “290” and this…..agree.

  301. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians?
     
    It cycles repetitively in some separate topics.

    1. Trump is a Nazi.

    2. Trump hates women.

    3. Trump is agent of Putin.

    4. Trump has an unstable temperament.

    5. Trump is going to destroy the world.

    Maybe, some others.

    I think the most effective is "Trump hates women". But they cannot maintain viewers' attention on this same topic for more than a certain time, so they have to change the program in the cycle every week or so.

    Looking at CNN now, it seems today program is "Trump has an unstable temperament".

    https://i.imgur.com/rMsBocl.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Check right now front of Washington Post and New York Times – it has almost the same as CNN. They are probably co-ordinating with each other their theme for today? But almost all the articles about Trump.

    And New York Times

  302. @German_reader
    @iffen


    won’t people like you have to choose
     
    Maybe, there certainly are limits to what I would be willing to accept. But the entire question is hypothetical right now anyway, since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany) and even "moderate" nationalism is heavily demonized.

    Replies: @iffen, @dfordoom

    You are much more pessimistic than me. Trump faces an uphill battle for re-election, but his base is not going anywhere. The sewer pond scum Romney types may take back control of the Republican Party, but the base will still exercise political power. The economic, social and political conditions that brought forth the new populism are not going away.

    I will defer to you on Europe, but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit, surely the supporters there can see that.

    even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.

    Sure, but you have to give people time to realize, “Hey, there’re talking about me.”

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.” 🙂

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @iffen


    but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit
     
    I don't know, I'm quite ambivalent about Brexit. The EU in its present form certainly needs to be reformed, and the prospect of a "United states of Europe" is a nightmare imo. But I have to admit I find the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating, with its bashing of continental Europe, and especially the anti-German overtones with their bizarre WW2 references. The readiness of many Brexiteers to claim that Britain isn't even civilizationally European (which doesn't have any connection to a political project like the EU) is very alienating...if Britain isn't a European country, what is it? There's a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests. And above all, there's no serious discussion at all about Britain's mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn't pro-diversity enough and meant "racist" preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol). I don't see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it's probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn't far behind).

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.”
     
    Self-radicalization is certainly a problem, but there's also the risk of being coopted by the establishment, or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant, so it's hard to strike the right balance, especially given the hostility of the media and an establishment that doesn't play fair.

    Replies: @iffen, @Seraphim, @dfordoom, @Mitleser

  303. German_reader says:
    @iffen
    @German_reader

    You are much more pessimistic than me. Trump faces an uphill battle for re-election, but his base is not going anywhere. The sewer pond scum Romney types may take back control of the Republican Party, but the base will still exercise political power. The economic, social and political conditions that brought forth the new populism are not going away.


    I will defer to you on Europe, but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit, surely the supporters there can see that.

    even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.


    Sure, but you have to give people time to realize, "Hey, there're talking about me."

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that's why it is important to be "moderate." :)

    Replies: @German_reader

    but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit

    I don’t know, I’m quite ambivalent about Brexit. The EU in its present form certainly needs to be reformed, and the prospect of a “United states of Europe” is a nightmare imo. But I have to admit I find the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating, with its bashing of continental Europe, and especially the anti-German overtones with their bizarre WW2 references. The readiness of many Brexiteers to claim that Britain isn’t even civilizationally European (which doesn’t have any connection to a political project like the EU) is very alienating…if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it? There’s a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests. And above all, there’s no serious discussion at all about Britain’s mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn’t pro-diversity enough and meant “racist” preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol). I don’t see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it’s probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn’t far behind).

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.”

    Self-radicalization is certainly a problem, but there’s also the risk of being coopted by the establishment, or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant, so it’s hard to strike the right balance, especially given the hostility of the media and an establishment that doesn’t play fair.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @German_reader

    I am not qualified to debate on these important points that you bring up about Brexit. I was simply looking at it in terms of a populist revolt against what the elite had decided and demanded that the proles support. In reference to globalism and control of the border, I think they would be better off out of the EU. Economically, it makes sense for them to be integrated into Europe.

    but there’s also the risk of being coopted by the establishment,

    If you can force them to adopt policies to “buy you off” that is a good thing.

    or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant,

    You don’t want to do this; f*** the establishment. You want to maintain respectability with regard to your potential allies.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Seraphim
    @German_reader

    @the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating... if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it?

    The question is whether they know what it is. It certainly has to do with the delusions of imperial grandeur and the 'splendid isolation' which affected the collective psyche of the British after the 'Brexit' of Henry VIII's Reformation, consolidated by the intoxicating dreams of 'White-Anglo-Saxon' superiority (the secularized sub-product of the Reformation).
    The 'splendid isolation' meant that Britain engaged in a long drawn policy of subverting the Continental Powers and snatching their colonies (Spain, France). It is actually the beginning of the 'Great Game' against Russia, the emerging Power that put a roadblock in the ways of British expansion.
    It engaged in the active sabotaging and dismantling of the 'Concert of Europe' created under the aegis of Russia by the 'Dancing Congress' of Vienna, fomenting unrest and revolutions, ultimately directed at Russia. It had the unintended consequences of helping the raise of Germany and Japan, which quickly became serious competitors. It was then that Britain rediscovered its 'Europeanity' and suspended its 'hybrid war' against Russia, playing Germany against Russia and Russia against Germany. But the war(s) in which Britain had to participate let it prostrate. But they had the Americans whom they induced into the 'Round Table' of Anglo-Saxon superiority in reserve. It was fine now to become again 'Europeans' as long as they were pulling the strings. It was great to have all the rights of the 'Europeans' but none of their obligations!
    It is disconcerting (to say the least) that the Brexiters are irked by the immigration of white Christian East Europeans, but had no objections against the immigration of their 'colored' (mostly Muslims) former colonial subjects!

    , @dfordoom
    @German_reader


    There’s a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests.
     
    The British have never accepted the loss of the Empire, and even more importantly the loss of Great Power status. The foreign policy (especially their pathetic fantasy of the Special Relationship with the United States) is driven by daydreams of recapturing Great Power status.

    The Empire was from the mid-19th century on always a substitute for true national greatness. Britain was a poor country with an inefficient and shambolic industrial base. The Empire was a way of making the poor feel better about their wretched lives.

    And above all, there’s no serious discussion at all about Britain’s mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn’t pro-diversity enough and meant “racist” preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol).
     
    Agreed. Brexit will lead to an acceleration of Third World immigration.

    I don’t see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it’s probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn’t far behind).
     
    Britain is definitely a lost cause.
    , @Mitleser
    @German_reader


    if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it?
     
    It is an Anglo(sphere) country.

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/994/193/1600/Anglosphere%20Flag.jpg
  304. German_reader says:
    @for-the-record
    @German_reader

    "We are all here elites to some extent" (Dmitry) Certainly not! (G_R)

    You are most definitely elite, in an intellectual sense, of this there is no doubt.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Thanks, that’s very nice, though I don’t think I deserve such praise.
    But I think that in an economic or political sense most commenters here aren’t genuinely “elite”, but more like mostly powerless observers (apart maybe from Thorfinnsson, but he seems to be currently away, probably preparing his presidential campaign).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...powerless observers
     
    I think not. I run a small EU country through my minions. Any day now I plan to pull a Guaido, like that brownish guy in Venezuela, and make it official. Keep an eye on this space...
  305. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean


    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.
     
    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia - the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America - CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere - not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There's poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

    Replies: @Beckow, @songbird, @Swedish Family, @Hyperborean

    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    Excellent and very fair list. I would add, perhaps, that Russian YouTube abounds with open criticism of the Kremlin, which would come as a surprise to many Westerners. To pick but one example, here is well-known stand-up comedian Danila Poperechny (from 2:27; click the “subtitles” button for English subtitles)

  306. @German_reader
    @iffen


    but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit
     
    I don't know, I'm quite ambivalent about Brexit. The EU in its present form certainly needs to be reformed, and the prospect of a "United states of Europe" is a nightmare imo. But I have to admit I find the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating, with its bashing of continental Europe, and especially the anti-German overtones with their bizarre WW2 references. The readiness of many Brexiteers to claim that Britain isn't even civilizationally European (which doesn't have any connection to a political project like the EU) is very alienating...if Britain isn't a European country, what is it? There's a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests. And above all, there's no serious discussion at all about Britain's mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn't pro-diversity enough and meant "racist" preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol). I don't see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it's probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn't far behind).

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.”
     
    Self-radicalization is certainly a problem, but there's also the risk of being coopted by the establishment, or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant, so it's hard to strike the right balance, especially given the hostility of the media and an establishment that doesn't play fair.

    Replies: @iffen, @Seraphim, @dfordoom, @Mitleser

    I am not qualified to debate on these important points that you bring up about Brexit. I was simply looking at it in terms of a populist revolt against what the elite had decided and demanded that the proles support. In reference to globalism and control of the border, I think they would be better off out of the EU. Economically, it makes sense for them to be integrated into Europe.

    but there’s also the risk of being coopted by the establishment,

    If you can force them to adopt policies to “buy you off” that is a good thing.

    or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant,

    You don’t want to do this; f*** the establishment. You want to maintain respectability with regard to your potential allies.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @iffen


    In reference to globalism and control of the border, I think they would be better off out of the EU.
     
    The problem for the British is not the EU. It's their own vicious ruling class. That ruling class intends to turn Britain into a rainbow unicorn multi-culti paradise with lots of cheap labour.

    Britain's enemies are not in Brussels. Britain's enemies are in Whitehall.

    Replies: @Mitleser

  307. @Beckow
    @Swedish Family


    ...the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance
     
    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything - it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    most people are ideologically agnostic at heart
     
    Basically. Most people are opportunistic conformists because it is by far the best evolutionary strategy. Unfortunately it is not a very noble way to live one's life.

    ...framed the other way: class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent
     
    As recently as 1-2 generations ago that was the dominant elite paradigm: they were the guardians. Then they realised that without the Third World cheap labor their costs would just keep on going up (inflation in the 70's) and their political power would decline (uppity middle and working classes). So they engineered a massive labor over-supply change. Welcome to globalism. That and their kids went LGBQ-whatever.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything – it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    Some people are beyond redemption and will need to be made an example of, true, but surely most billionaires are only in it for the influence, and taking a few steps down the ladder is a small price to pay for keeping that? It seems that this was pretty much Putin’s reasoning in the early 00s, with the public clampdowns on Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky to make the other oligarchs fall in line, and it worked well for him.

  308. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    You don't even have to insult the group. You could have and convey a relatively high opinion of them and they would still be greatly offended as a group of interlopers. Individual exceptions, but it holds true of all groups, even whites in China or Japan. And certainly of Chinese and Japanese in America or Europe.

    They take the message as their insult, so it doesn't matter what Trump said, unless he was saying "We need more Mexicans!" But the media would have been strongly against him, if he ever said "Less Africans and Arabs!"

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    Very true. My father lives in Spain for most of the year, and he was oddly offended when I pointed out the obvious fact that too many people like him — he speaks very little Spanish and mostly mixes with Germans and Dutchmen — would be bad for Spanish culture. Israel Shamir was right when he wrote that mass immigration should be opposed on principle, no matter whom it involves.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Swedish Family


    Israel Shamir was right when he wrote that mass immigration should be opposed on principle, no matter whom it involves.
     
    Exactly.
  309. @German_reader
    @AaronB

    That's just the standard leftie nonsense..."Why can't people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?".
    In reality "elites" and immigrants are allies against the native majority.


    Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism
     
    Total nonsense, the "elites" do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
    I have to admit something like that does raise the question whether your true intention here is to demoralize the nationalist commenters and shame them back into wimpy mainsteam positions.

    Replies: @AaronB, @utu

    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    That’s pretty accurate. While you know it you still think that going after the immigrants w/o touching the elites may do the job. Populism must be broad against the elites. This is the only way to attract supporters from the other side that is paralyzed by the protective force field extended over minorities and immigrants. The force field gets its energy from the elites. You have to hit the power station first. People must realized that elites are their enemy. And this can be done by focusing on the economic issue not the racial or ethnic issues.

    Even this ”Why can’t people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?” could be a part of strategy to get the initial traction. However in Germany you do not have to do it because immigrants apart from Turks are not politically organized. Your chief target are Germans who do no see the long term consequences of the current process who are paralyzed by the force field.

    It is different in the US. The anti-immigration movement can’t exclude Blacks. In the US the only winning strategy would be by getting Blacks on the anti-immigration side. But this won’t happen as long as the white anti-immigration side is mostly libertarian, HBDist and IQists consoling themselves by repetitive chants of their IQ superiority with a simultaneous often unwitting homage to their IQ-superior Jewish elite.

    • Replies: <