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The Flynn Effect in Russia
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  • Sugonyaev, Konstantin, and Andrei Grigoriev. 2019. “Эффект Флинна в России.Экспериментальная Психология 12 (4): 50–61. [PDF]

This is the latest paper based on Sugonyaev’s n=238,363 database of Russian online test-takers run by the Ministry of Defense.

Refer to my two existing articles on this for more details on methodology:

Here is the keypoint graph from Sugonyaev and Grigoriev’s paper:

This shows a Flynn Effect of ~2 IQ points relative to the late Soviet era, sorting by date of birth.

Note that this broadly tallies with PISA results [see right], in which Russia moved up from a PISA-equivalent IQ of 95 (OECD mean = 100) amongst the ~1985-1994 cohorts (PISA 2000-2009), to around 97-98 by the time of the 1997-2003 cohorts (PISA 2012-2018).

Why might we expect to see a Flynn Effect in Russia?

Even though it has dysgenic reproduction patterns, like any other industrialized countries (and most of the Third World), Russia still hasn’t maximized gains from the environment. In particular, my long-standing thesis is that potential Russian IQ gains were largely nullified during the 1965-2000 period by the late Soviet era alcoholization crisis.

According to an OECD survey of adult cognitive skills c.2012, Russia has the second-lowest difference between the performance of its oldest (55-65 y/o) and youngest (16-24 y/o) cohort of any major industrialized country bar England & Northern Ireland. The Soviet alcoholization crisis began precisely around the mid-1960s, i.e. just around the time those 55-65 y/o’s had physically matured. Intermediate generations were wrecked, despite increasing wealth up through to the end of the USSR. Meanwhile, Russia’s Generation Z is coming of age at a time characterized by (a) alcoholization rates gradually returning to “normal country” levels; (b) greater wealth than any previous Russian generation, subsequent to the post-1998 economic recovery; (c) having had more resources, inc. schooling per capita, than any previous generation on account of the fertility collapse of the 1990s; (d) living in an age of unprecedented information density.

All of these factors would suggest that Russia still had some unrealized Flynn potential, and I predicted as much in a blog post from 2012:

Russian nutrition has already returned to First World levels however; for instance, meat , fish, fruit, etc. consumption is now basically the same as in Europe or the US. This means that in the next decade I expect the Flynn Effect to kick off in Russia’s favor, raising its average IQ levels to their theoretical peak of 100 by the 2020’s.

It is always nice to see one’s predictions coming true.

PS. Could the results be confounded by age effects? To the contrary, the authors site an n=48,537 study by Hartshorne, Germine, 2015 which shows a 0.5z increase in verbal and numerical ability between 20 y/0’s and 40 y/o’s, whereas in this case there is a decline of 0.15z. So if anything, the Flynn gains are substantially understated. This result was even confirmed with Sugonyaev’s data, where it was found that 20 year old respondents born during 1992-1998 displayed a performance increase of 0.31 IQ points per year.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Flynn Effect, IQ, Russia 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. According to an OECD survey of adult cognitive skills c.2012, Russia has the second-lowest difference between the performance of its oldest (55-65 y/o) and youngest (16-24 y/o) cohort of any major industrialized country bar England & Northern Ireland. The Soviet alcoholization crisis began precisely around the mid-1960s, i.e. just around the time those 55-65 y/o’s had physically matured.

    OTOH, this also means any potential productivity gains will be much lower than countries where the skills gap is much larger between the generations, as the young phase out the old. As for alcholism, South Korea famously had a very hard-drinking business culture and it is no exaggeration to say that many South Korean men (women largely were largely absent at the higher ends of their economy, which is what drives productivity) were essentially functional alcoholics in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Alcoholism probably did not help, but it also famously did not hinder South Korea, though their drinking habits have calmed in recent years as it has in Russia.

    If you look at the PIAAC study, South Korea had huge skills gaps between young and old, whereas Russia has not. This skills gap is also present in China, as evidenced by the fact that many Chinese over the age of 50 often don’t even have a high school education. By contrast, Russia’s over-50 population was much more skilled. Arguably one of the most skilled in the eastern bloc. If they failed to build a prosperous society thus far, given the minimal skills gap to the youth(unlike China and Korea), you’re basically betting the farm on less alcohol being a magic productivity booster. That is a very big gamble.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    (1) The differences between an economic system in which domestic gas consumption wasn't even metered (as it wasn't for a long time in the USSR) and today's system are so vast that comparisons are meaningless.

    (2) The differences in the alcoholization crisis in the Christian areas of the USSR and almost anywhere else outside the commie bloc were, again, incomparable. Example: About 2% of adult age mortality in Finland during the early 2000s accrued to alcohol consumption (Finland was the single hardest binge drinking country in the Western world), vs. 33% in Russia.
    , @songbird
    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren't each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren't the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.
    , @Dreadilk
    Education provided by government is trash. It literally selects for nothing. A bugman can pass any government curriculum. Industry is not built by bugmen it is staffed by them. A regular red neck will be able to do a bug men's job. So the fact that Soviets were most educated work force means nothing and the fact that the west had entire generations of non college grads run industry also means I am correct.
  3. @Thulean Friend

    According to an OECD survey of adult cognitive skills c.2012, Russia has the second-lowest difference between the performance of its oldest (55-65 y/o) and youngest (16-24 y/o) cohort of any major industrialized country bar England & Northern Ireland. The Soviet alcoholization crisis began precisely around the mid-1960s, i.e. just around the time those 55-65 y/o’s had physically matured.
     
    OTOH, this also means any potential productivity gains will be much lower than countries where the skills gap is much larger between the generations, as the young phase out the old. As for alcholism, South Korea famously had a very hard-drinking business culture and it is no exaggeration to say that many South Korean men (women largely were largely absent at the higher ends of their economy, which is what drives productivity) were essentially functional alcoholics in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Alcoholism probably did not help, but it also famously did not hinder South Korea, though their drinking habits have calmed in recent years as it has in Russia.

    If you look at the PIAAC study, South Korea had huge skills gaps between young and old, whereas Russia has not. This skills gap is also present in China, as evidenced by the fact that many Chinese over the age of 50 often don't even have a high school education. By contrast, Russia's over-50 population was much more skilled. Arguably one of the most skilled in the eastern bloc. If they failed to build a prosperous society thus far, given the minimal skills gap to the youth(unlike China and Korea), you're basically betting the farm on less alcohol being a magic productivity booster. That is a very big gamble.

    (1) The differences between an economic system in which domestic gas consumption wasn’t even metered (as it wasn’t for a long time in the USSR) and today’s system are so vast that comparisons are meaningless.

    (2) The differences in the alcoholization crisis in the Christian areas of the USSR and almost anywhere else outside the commie bloc were, again, incomparable. Example: About 2% of adult age mortality in Finland during the early 2000s accrued to alcohol consumption (Finland was the single hardest binge drinking country in the Western world), vs. 33% in Russia.

  4. @Thulean Friend

    According to an OECD survey of adult cognitive skills c.2012, Russia has the second-lowest difference between the performance of its oldest (55-65 y/o) and youngest (16-24 y/o) cohort of any major industrialized country bar England & Northern Ireland. The Soviet alcoholization crisis began precisely around the mid-1960s, i.e. just around the time those 55-65 y/o’s had physically matured.
     
    OTOH, this also means any potential productivity gains will be much lower than countries where the skills gap is much larger between the generations, as the young phase out the old. As for alcholism, South Korea famously had a very hard-drinking business culture and it is no exaggeration to say that many South Korean men (women largely were largely absent at the higher ends of their economy, which is what drives productivity) were essentially functional alcoholics in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Alcoholism probably did not help, but it also famously did not hinder South Korea, though their drinking habits have calmed in recent years as it has in Russia.

    If you look at the PIAAC study, South Korea had huge skills gaps between young and old, whereas Russia has not. This skills gap is also present in China, as evidenced by the fact that many Chinese over the age of 50 often don't even have a high school education. By contrast, Russia's over-50 population was much more skilled. Arguably one of the most skilled in the eastern bloc. If they failed to build a prosperous society thus far, given the minimal skills gap to the youth(unlike China and Korea), you're basically betting the farm on less alcohol being a magic productivity booster. That is a very big gamble.

    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren’t each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I’m wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren’t the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren’t each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros?
     
    From what I've read, Northern Europeans are more adapted to alcohol, which make East Asians engaging binge-drinking "business culture" even more self-destructive. Though it is important to point out this "culture" was much more prevalent in specifically South Korea during the 60s-90s than it was in Japan or Taiwan at any time.

    I'm too lazy to dig up the relevant quotes on google books now, but I read an interesting book on Korea some years ago where the author goes into this quite a bit. Basically, if you were an ambitious 120+ IQ Korean male with some ambition during their boom years, your liver was simply going to take a huge blow by the time you were 40. There was no avoiding it unless you avoided career advancement.

    Then again, given Unz’s theories on East Asian IQ and how it seems impervious to nutritional effects, maybe we can chalk it up to the same pattern if it didn’t stop their ascent? It’s an fascinating HBD question.


    Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren’t the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.
     
    That's interesting. There's quite a bit of research on the negative effects of loneliness. Marriage is a big reason why some people live longer. Maybe there are unmeasured happiness gains here regarding sociability. East Asians strike me as fairly isolationist people in general, so it is fascinating how their drinking culture tends to be a lot more communitarian, karaoke as you mention being the perfect example. In Sweden, the stereotype was always that you either drink in huge quantities over the weekend (typically in bars with your friends) or you drink alone in some cottage in the forest. Only in recent years have we tried to import a 'continental' habit of drinking moderately over dinner with friends (we now consume more wine than beer, which is a historical oddity).

    Derbyshire mentioned in his China diaries that he was positively impressed by the activities that the elder Chinese were engaged with together as a group and seemed to have less of isolation problems we often have in the West.

    You read a lot about lonely elderly people in Japan, but I wonder if it is really that much worse than what we have. The single most shameful thing I am disgusted by with my culture is our tendency to abandon our elders and put them in elder homes and then largely forget about them.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    No, East Asians are less well adapted to alcohol.

    https://gizmodo.com/yet-more-research-links-even-light-drinking-to-a-higher-1840324572
    , @Dmitry

    seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan
     
    Apparently salarymen in Japan are often expected to drink for hours afterwork with their colleagues, sometimes all night - almost as part of a hazing by the corporation.

    I've heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.

    It's surprising Japan still has the highest life expectancy in the world, considering how much stress their workforce might experience.

    -

    In Tokyo, you can see salarymen trying to arrive home drunkly.

    E.g. this is probably what happens next morning if you fail to stay conscious on a journey to home
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFKiuypUleM
    , @Pericles
    Well, I'm a Nordic and have had a few drinking bouts with Asians, and have found them easily defeated as a rule. Haven't tried going up against a seasoned sararyman yet.

    (And, being Nordic, I also have two acquaintances who died probably due to drinking problems. Our evolution is not yet complete.)
  5. @songbird
    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren't each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren't the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.

    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren’t each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros?

    From what I’ve read, Northern Europeans are more adapted to alcohol, which make East Asians engaging binge-drinking “business culture” even more self-destructive. Though it is important to point out this “culture” was much more prevalent in specifically South Korea during the 60s-90s than it was in Japan or Taiwan at any time.

    I’m too lazy to dig up the relevant quotes on google books now, but I read an interesting book on Korea some years ago where the author goes into this quite a bit. Basically, if you were an ambitious 120+ IQ Korean male with some ambition during their boom years, your liver was simply going to take a huge blow by the time you were 40. There was no avoiding it unless you avoided career advancement.

    Then again, given Unz’s theories on East Asian IQ and how it seems impervious to nutritional effects, maybe we can chalk it up to the same pattern if it didn’t stop their ascent? It’s an fascinating HBD question.

    Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren’t the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.

    That’s interesting. There’s quite a bit of research on the negative effects of loneliness. Marriage is a big reason why some people live longer. Maybe there are unmeasured happiness gains here regarding sociability. East Asians strike me as fairly isolationist people in general, so it is fascinating how their drinking culture tends to be a lot more communitarian, karaoke as you mention being the perfect example. In Sweden, the stereotype was always that you either drink in huge quantities over the weekend (typically in bars with your friends) or you drink alone in some cottage in the forest. Only in recent years have we tried to import a ‘continental’ habit of drinking moderately over dinner with friends (we now consume more wine than beer, which is a historical oddity).

    Derbyshire mentioned in his China diaries that he was positively impressed by the activities that the elder Chinese were engaged with together as a group and seemed to have less of isolation problems we often have in the West.

    You read a lot about lonely elderly people in Japan, but I wonder if it is really that much worse than what we have. The single most shameful thing I am disgusted by with my culture is our tendency to abandon our elders and put them in elder homes and then largely forget about them.

    • Replies: @songbird
    The way I think it works is East Asians are better adapted to the presence of alcohol, meaning somewhat counter-intuitively that they have a worse reaction to drinking. It is this worse reaction, perhaps best typified by alcohol flush, which makes them less likely to be alcoholics. But the whole idea is that it was a trait which was selected due to a longer exposure to alcohol than Northern Europeans. So, it is not worse in the same way as how Amerinds might react to alcohol.

    From wiki:

    Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate
     
    I could see why Southern China would be different than Europe, but in a way it seems strange that Japan and Korea are different. I wonder what explains it. These gradients of alcohol tolerance are really fascinating. I think I recall hearing that there is some gene that has a West to East gradient within Europe, but it was behind a paywall, so I never read the paper.

    I agree, the stereotypical Asian respect for elders is something that they do right. Another thing, IMO, is the intact marriages.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.
    , @Brexit Brexit
    Northern European cultures in particular seem to value youth over experience and don't have much respect for the elderly. Elderly people are seen as outdated in Northern Europe, as having nothing to offer that would benefit modern society. In many Asian cultures, however, elderly people tend to be seen as the wisest people because of their experience. Southern European cultures also value their elderly to a large extent, certainly more than Northern Europeans do.

    I wonder if this is why Northern European cultures are so open to mass immigration, because the immigrants are mostly young and seen to be replacing the elderly, and culturally this is seen as a positive thing in Northern European cultures.
  6. @Thulean Friend

    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren’t each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros?
     
    From what I've read, Northern Europeans are more adapted to alcohol, which make East Asians engaging binge-drinking "business culture" even more self-destructive. Though it is important to point out this "culture" was much more prevalent in specifically South Korea during the 60s-90s than it was in Japan or Taiwan at any time.

    I'm too lazy to dig up the relevant quotes on google books now, but I read an interesting book on Korea some years ago where the author goes into this quite a bit. Basically, if you were an ambitious 120+ IQ Korean male with some ambition during their boom years, your liver was simply going to take a huge blow by the time you were 40. There was no avoiding it unless you avoided career advancement.

    Then again, given Unz’s theories on East Asian IQ and how it seems impervious to nutritional effects, maybe we can chalk it up to the same pattern if it didn’t stop their ascent? It’s an fascinating HBD question.


    Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren’t the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.
     
    That's interesting. There's quite a bit of research on the negative effects of loneliness. Marriage is a big reason why some people live longer. Maybe there are unmeasured happiness gains here regarding sociability. East Asians strike me as fairly isolationist people in general, so it is fascinating how their drinking culture tends to be a lot more communitarian, karaoke as you mention being the perfect example. In Sweden, the stereotype was always that you either drink in huge quantities over the weekend (typically in bars with your friends) or you drink alone in some cottage in the forest. Only in recent years have we tried to import a 'continental' habit of drinking moderately over dinner with friends (we now consume more wine than beer, which is a historical oddity).

    Derbyshire mentioned in his China diaries that he was positively impressed by the activities that the elder Chinese were engaged with together as a group and seemed to have less of isolation problems we often have in the West.

    You read a lot about lonely elderly people in Japan, but I wonder if it is really that much worse than what we have. The single most shameful thing I am disgusted by with my culture is our tendency to abandon our elders and put them in elder homes and then largely forget about them.

    The way I think it works is East Asians are better adapted to the presence of alcohol, meaning somewhat counter-intuitively that they have a worse reaction to drinking. It is this worse reaction, perhaps best typified by alcohol flush, which makes them less likely to be alcoholics. But the whole idea is that it was a trait which was selected due to a longer exposure to alcohol than Northern Europeans. So, it is not worse in the same way as how Amerinds might react to alcohol.

    From wiki:

    Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate

    I could see why Southern China would be different than Europe, but in a way it seems strange that Japan and Korea are different. I wonder what explains it. These gradients of alcohol tolerance are really fascinating. I think I recall hearing that there is some gene that has a West to East gradient within Europe, but it was behind a paywall, so I never read the paper.

    I agree, the stereotypical Asian respect for elders is something that they do right. Another thing, IMO, is the intact marriages.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.
     
    East Asians are on the far-end on the r-K scale among humans. Which is funny, given China's huge contemporary population. Though that is more due to very fertile soil in core historic Chinese population centers, which combined with Chinese contentiousness allowed for a higher social organisation (and thus, more easily supporting a larger population base given these conditions). We may recall that much of the Middle East bloomed once upon a time but much of this was destroyed due to human mismanagement.

    One particular pathology among many East Asian countries are their obscene property prices. True, the West's contemporary property prices are hardly rational either but we have high immigration to blame. Before that really started to kick in, housing was generally fairly affordable across the West whereas in East Asia you have either no or at best quite paltry immigration yet their housing prices are bonkers.

    IIRC, in China, a significant share of the local municipalities revenues come from land value transactions, which incentivices very high housing costs so that these municipalities can keep increasing their revenue. A sick and self-defeating system.

    Going to your point about fertility, aside from the r-K issue, very high housing costs delays family formation as their dating culture is very pragmatic/materialistic. A man must provide for his wife is still very much the norm. When housing is crazy that naturally puts a break on everything from the age of the first child to how many children to support. The Chinese state is also far less generous than the Swedish state is.

    Chinese women are pretty upfront with what they want and demand. Here in Sweden, our social norms are much more relaxed. I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It's seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve. There's simply less stigma/prestige here and relationships don't revolve around money in the same way. It's similar in other Nordic countries. It'd be an interesting research topic if it has any relation to the Nordic countries' fairly eugenic fertility patterns.

    , @Dmitry

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy... better adapted
     
    It's because Chinese are mainly a third world people (and have ascended to industrialized proletariat only recently).

    They can still do some natural things like sleeping without laboratory conditions - e.g. Chinese workers can probably sleep on factory floor without a mattress.

    Similarly, many American pioneers in the 19th century, could pull wagons across the landscapes, fight with Indians, not eat food for days, and probably could still sleep easily outside with a rock as their pillow.

    Whereas nowadays, Americans - after a century of embourgeoisement - can unlikely sleep without air conditioning, and luxury Egyptian cotton sheets; and as in the Hans Christian Andersen, might detect a pea under a dozen mattresses.

    In Russia, there are a lot of memes (about 99% true) about tough peasant old grandmothers, who perhaps traverse frozen rivers each morning at age 85. But this is becoming a generational artifact even in such villages- their children might already be weak souls, who panic if their shoes become wet.

    When men's conditions improve, so does their sensitivity - in the end, the population of wealthy countries, might not sleep better, but simply become like princesses, puzzled that people could sleep with a pea in their bed.

  7. Didn’t they use some drug in the Soviet Union to treat alcoholism? Anyone recall what it was called? I’m trying to figure out if it worked the same way as the East Asian adaption because that would be pretty interesting, even if it was just by coincidence and not by design.

    Perhaps, one of the easiest gene-mods that could be done on people would involve adaption to alcohol.

  8. @songbird
    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren't each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren't the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.
    • Replies: @songbird
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if Asians had higher rates of cancer per unit alcohol consumed. It might make sense given that acetaldehyde is a known carcinogen and Asians metabolize alcohol into acetaldehyde at a faster rate, and metabolize acetaldehyde into acetic acid at a slower rate.

    Still, pretty good trade off, if it means you won't be drunk off your head and unable to bring home the bread to feed your family.

    I think the Asian variant allele of ALDH2 is a selective sweep. Some people seem to think it has something to do with parasite defense, but that seems convoluted to me. Probably has something to due with wet-rice agriculture.
    , @dux.ie
    Alcohol cumulatively damages the brain. The ADH gene controls alcohol metabolism and the ADH1B*2 variant is defective in handling the alcohol metabolism such that the carriers can feel sick with small amount of alcohol and most become teetotalers. From 1KGP Europeans have almost nil ADH1B*2 variant whereas EASTAsians have high percentage with ADH1B*2. As a result 50% of the global uncurable and painful esophageal cancer cases are in China.

    It is interesting to see the effects of ADH1B*2 on the cognitive ability. I use the GRE scores because it has separate Quant and Verbal scores and the effects of ADH1B*2 are opposite. Populations with high ADH1B*2 tended to score higher GREqaunt but lower GREverbal. That might explain the noted traits of EastAsians tended to excel in Maths and spatial cognitions but low in verbal ability while the Europeans are the opposite. Brennan's paper has more data on global ADH1B*2 distribution and it seems that Europeans tended to have less than 10% ADH1B*2.

    https://i.ibb.co/v1jpnrz/greadh.png

    In Lee's GWAS study on Education Attainment EA3 ADH1B*2 is one of the effective SNPs identified. In the UKBiobank data on drinking the ADH1B*2 is prominantly present with negative beta. It is interesting that the common SNPs between EA3 and drinking, most of the common SNPs have small effects and the effects of ADH1B*2 stands out to be dominant and important, strong negative beta for drinking and strong positive beta for EA3.

    https://i.ibb.co/RCwCFg7/ea3dri8.png

    In the GRE/IQdb vs ADH1B*2 chart, there are a bit of scatter for the European data hinting that some other effective genes might be present. A potential gene variant is the CCR5 Delta32 which has been shown in some study to be involved in directing stem cells into brain damage areas. It also happen that Europeans have significant percentage with Delta32 whereas the EastAsians have virtually nil. It is so happen that Ashkenazis have significant percentages with both ADH1B*2 and Delta32 which might have explained why the avg IQ of Ashkenazis is higher than those for Europe and EastAsia, and why Ashkenazis have high IQ and verbal IQ but only with moderate Spatial IQ.

    , @TelfoedJohn
    I don’t think I see many East Asian drunks. Plenty of northern Europeans though. Scandos, Irish, Scots, Russians etc. Their bodies just don’t seem used to alcohol, and need to go through a few more hundred years of adaption.
  9. @songbird
    The way I think it works is East Asians are better adapted to the presence of alcohol, meaning somewhat counter-intuitively that they have a worse reaction to drinking. It is this worse reaction, perhaps best typified by alcohol flush, which makes them less likely to be alcoholics. But the whole idea is that it was a trait which was selected due to a longer exposure to alcohol than Northern Europeans. So, it is not worse in the same way as how Amerinds might react to alcohol.

    From wiki:

    Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate
     
    I could see why Southern China would be different than Europe, but in a way it seems strange that Japan and Korea are different. I wonder what explains it. These gradients of alcohol tolerance are really fascinating. I think I recall hearing that there is some gene that has a West to East gradient within Europe, but it was behind a paywall, so I never read the paper.

    I agree, the stereotypical Asian respect for elders is something that they do right. Another thing, IMO, is the intact marriages.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.

    East Asians are on the far-end on the r-K scale among humans. Which is funny, given China’s huge contemporary population. Though that is more due to very fertile soil in core historic Chinese population centers, which combined with Chinese contentiousness allowed for a higher social organisation (and thus, more easily supporting a larger population base given these conditions). We may recall that much of the Middle East bloomed once upon a time but much of this was destroyed due to human mismanagement.

    One particular pathology among many East Asian countries are their obscene property prices. True, the West’s contemporary property prices are hardly rational either but we have high immigration to blame. Before that really started to kick in, housing was generally fairly affordable across the West whereas in East Asia you have either no or at best quite paltry immigration yet their housing prices are bonkers.

    IIRC, in China, a significant share of the local municipalities revenues come from land value transactions, which incentivices very high housing costs so that these municipalities can keep increasing their revenue. A sick and self-defeating system.

    Going to your point about fertility, aside from the r-K issue, very high housing costs delays family formation as their dating culture is very pragmatic/materialistic. A man must provide for his wife is still very much the norm. When housing is crazy that naturally puts a break on everything from the age of the first child to how many children to support. The Chinese state is also far less generous than the Swedish state is.

    Chinese women are pretty upfront with what they want and demand. Here in Sweden, our social norms are much more relaxed. I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It’s seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve. There’s simply less stigma/prestige here and relationships don’t revolve around money in the same way. It’s similar in other Nordic countries. It’d be an interesting research topic if it has any relation to the Nordic countries’ fairly eugenic fertility patterns.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It’s seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve.
     
    Ew(and I imagine that's the reaction of a lot of other Asian men).

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise. I do agree with spandrell's belief that Asian fertility was heavily driven by much lower traditional status of women and culture has never been able to quite compensate since.
  10. @Thulean Friend

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.
     
    East Asians are on the far-end on the r-K scale among humans. Which is funny, given China's huge contemporary population. Though that is more due to very fertile soil in core historic Chinese population centers, which combined with Chinese contentiousness allowed for a higher social organisation (and thus, more easily supporting a larger population base given these conditions). We may recall that much of the Middle East bloomed once upon a time but much of this was destroyed due to human mismanagement.

    One particular pathology among many East Asian countries are their obscene property prices. True, the West's contemporary property prices are hardly rational either but we have high immigration to blame. Before that really started to kick in, housing was generally fairly affordable across the West whereas in East Asia you have either no or at best quite paltry immigration yet their housing prices are bonkers.

    IIRC, in China, a significant share of the local municipalities revenues come from land value transactions, which incentivices very high housing costs so that these municipalities can keep increasing their revenue. A sick and self-defeating system.

    Going to your point about fertility, aside from the r-K issue, very high housing costs delays family formation as their dating culture is very pragmatic/materialistic. A man must provide for his wife is still very much the norm. When housing is crazy that naturally puts a break on everything from the age of the first child to how many children to support. The Chinese state is also far less generous than the Swedish state is.

    Chinese women are pretty upfront with what they want and demand. Here in Sweden, our social norms are much more relaxed. I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It's seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve. There's simply less stigma/prestige here and relationships don't revolve around money in the same way. It's similar in other Nordic countries. It'd be an interesting research topic if it has any relation to the Nordic countries' fairly eugenic fertility patterns.

    I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It’s seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve.

    Ew(and I imagine that’s the reaction of a lot of other Asian men).

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise. I do agree with spandrell’s belief that Asian fertility was heavily driven by much lower traditional status of women and culture has never been able to quite compensate since.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise.
     
    American society did it after the end of WW2, big time.

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/03/16/operation-june-cleaver/

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/wwii-women-wacs-tide-housewife.jpg

    The author is telling this from a liberal point of view, but the Midcentury posters she collects and uploads speak for themselves - just look and read the authentic ad texts if you want a neutral picture. Fast forward 15-20 years, and the children born to those women in suburban paradises... became hippies, participated in Beatles mania and Woodstock and all kinds of weird experimentation. It seems they were willing to try anything (up to becoming the most divorced generation, and questionable fashion choices that now embarrass them forever in old photographs) to avoid repeating what they saw in their childhood. Director Tim Burton was one of them and made the movie Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors and made their windows smaller specially to emphasize that feeling).

    Obviously something was wrong and unsustainable there. I don't think the semi-autistic video gamers who come up with this idea now are wiser than American wartime propagandists, so if some miracle gave them power to implement it, they would probably screw up even worse.

  11. @Daniel Chieh
    No, East Asians are less well adapted to alcohol.

    https://gizmodo.com/yet-more-research-links-even-light-drinking-to-a-higher-1840324572

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Asians had higher rates of cancer per unit alcohol consumed. It might make sense given that acetaldehyde is a known carcinogen and Asians metabolize alcohol into acetaldehyde at a faster rate, and metabolize acetaldehyde into acetic acid at a slower rate.

    Still, pretty good trade off, if it means you won’t be drunk off your head and unable to bring home the bread to feed your family.

    I think the Asian variant allele of ALDH2 is a selective sweep. Some people seem to think it has something to do with parasite defense, but that seems convoluted to me. Probably has something to due with wet-rice agriculture.

  12. @Daniel Chieh
    No, East Asians are less well adapted to alcohol.

    https://gizmodo.com/yet-more-research-links-even-light-drinking-to-a-higher-1840324572

    Alcohol cumulatively damages the brain. The ADH gene controls alcohol metabolism and the ADH1B*2 variant is defective in handling the alcohol metabolism such that the carriers can feel sick with small amount of alcohol and most become teetotalers. From 1KGP Europeans have almost nil ADH1B*2 variant whereas EASTAsians have high percentage with ADH1B*2. As a result 50% of the global uncurable and painful esophageal cancer cases are in China.

    It is interesting to see the effects of ADH1B*2 on the cognitive ability. I use the GRE scores because it has separate Quant and Verbal scores and the effects of ADH1B*2 are opposite. Populations with high ADH1B*2 tended to score higher GREqaunt but lower GREverbal. That might explain the noted traits of EastAsians tended to excel in Maths and spatial cognitions but low in verbal ability while the Europeans are the opposite. Brennan’s paper has more data on global ADH1B*2 distribution and it seems that Europeans tended to have less than 10% ADH1B*2.

    In Lee’s GWAS study on Education Attainment EA3 ADH1B*2 is one of the effective SNPs identified. In the UKBiobank data on drinking the ADH1B*2 is prominantly present with negative beta. It is interesting that the common SNPs between EA3 and drinking, most of the common SNPs have small effects and the effects of ADH1B*2 stands out to be dominant and important, strong negative beta for drinking and strong positive beta for EA3.

    In the GRE/IQdb vs ADH1B*2 chart, there are a bit of scatter for the European data hinting that some other effective genes might be present. A potential gene variant is the CCR5 Delta32 which has been shown in some study to be involved in directing stem cells into brain damage areas. It also happen that Europeans have significant percentage with Delta32 whereas the EastAsians have virtually nil. It is so happen that Ashkenazis have significant percentages with both ADH1B*2 and Delta32 which might have explained why the avg IQ of Ashkenazis is higher than those for Europe and EastAsia, and why Ashkenazis have high IQ and verbal IQ but only with moderate Spatial IQ.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    It is interesting to see the effects of ADH1B*2 on the cognitive ability.
     
    Interesting post overall, thanks. It seems counterintuitive why a gene handling alcohol metabolism would be correlated with cognitive ability but at least the numbers seem to line up even if the immediate mechanism for such isn't self-evident.
  13. @dux.ie
    Alcohol cumulatively damages the brain. The ADH gene controls alcohol metabolism and the ADH1B*2 variant is defective in handling the alcohol metabolism such that the carriers can feel sick with small amount of alcohol and most become teetotalers. From 1KGP Europeans have almost nil ADH1B*2 variant whereas EASTAsians have high percentage with ADH1B*2. As a result 50% of the global uncurable and painful esophageal cancer cases are in China.

    It is interesting to see the effects of ADH1B*2 on the cognitive ability. I use the GRE scores because it has separate Quant and Verbal scores and the effects of ADH1B*2 are opposite. Populations with high ADH1B*2 tended to score higher GREqaunt but lower GREverbal. That might explain the noted traits of EastAsians tended to excel in Maths and spatial cognitions but low in verbal ability while the Europeans are the opposite. Brennan's paper has more data on global ADH1B*2 distribution and it seems that Europeans tended to have less than 10% ADH1B*2.

    https://i.ibb.co/v1jpnrz/greadh.png

    In Lee's GWAS study on Education Attainment EA3 ADH1B*2 is one of the effective SNPs identified. In the UKBiobank data on drinking the ADH1B*2 is prominantly present with negative beta. It is interesting that the common SNPs between EA3 and drinking, most of the common SNPs have small effects and the effects of ADH1B*2 stands out to be dominant and important, strong negative beta for drinking and strong positive beta for EA3.

    https://i.ibb.co/RCwCFg7/ea3dri8.png

    In the GRE/IQdb vs ADH1B*2 chart, there are a bit of scatter for the European data hinting that some other effective genes might be present. A potential gene variant is the CCR5 Delta32 which has been shown in some study to be involved in directing stem cells into brain damage areas. It also happen that Europeans have significant percentage with Delta32 whereas the EastAsians have virtually nil. It is so happen that Ashkenazis have significant percentages with both ADH1B*2 and Delta32 which might have explained why the avg IQ of Ashkenazis is higher than those for Europe and EastAsia, and why Ashkenazis have high IQ and verbal IQ but only with moderate Spatial IQ.

    It is interesting to see the effects of ADH1B*2 on the cognitive ability.

    Interesting post overall, thanks. It seems counterintuitive why a gene handling alcohol metabolism would be correlated with cognitive ability but at least the numbers seem to line up even if the immediate mechanism for such isn’t self-evident.

  14. The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.

    • Replies: @melanf

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.
     
    In the short term, this factor is not a danger at all because of the very small scale of mixing. In the long run, such a valuable evolutionary mechanism as mass alcoholism (which kills the most stupid and worthless people) in the end overrides all miscegenation

    And besides, is there any evidence that mixing with "Stans and Caucasus" has a negative effect on intelligence? The Irish IQ in the 20th century was estimated at the level of North Africa, and now they surpass England in PISA tests and GDP per capita
    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    , @Blinky Bill

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects.
     
    Sometimes it goes down sometimes it goes up. Overall the assimilation of the various minority people's has been a plus for the Russian Race and Nation. Example being Wildberries (Russian: ООО «Вайлдберриз») is the largest Russian online retailer. The company was founded in 2004 by Tatyana and Vladislav Bakalchuk. Mrs. Bakalchuk started the business in 2004 at age 28 in her Moscow apartment while on maternity leave from teaching. She realized how difficult it was for her and other young mothers to shop for clothes for themselves with a newborn at home. Her husband, Vladislav, an IT technician, soon joined her to help grow the business. In 2017 Wildberries had revenues for $1 billion,. In 2018 Wildberries works in 5 countries: Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Armenia, with more than 20 000 employees.

    https://i0.wp.com/hybridtechcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/download-26.png

    Tatyana Vladimirovna Bakalchuk (Russian: Татьяна Владимировна Бакальчук; born on 16 October 1975) is a Russian entrepreneur of Korean ethnicity. Children 4.

    Husband Vladislav Bakalchuk.

    business-magazine.ba/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Tatjana_Bakalčuk_2.jpg

  15. @neutral
    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.

    In the short term, this factor is not a danger at all because of the very small scale of mixing. In the long run, such a valuable evolutionary mechanism as mass alcoholism (which kills the most stupid and worthless people) in the end overrides all miscegenation

    And besides, is there any evidence that mixing with “Stans and Caucasus” has a negative effect on intelligence? The Irish IQ in the 20th century was estimated at the level of North Africa, and now they surpass England in PISA tests and GDP per capita
    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    • Replies: @neutral

    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ
     
    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society. I somehow doubt you can seriously believe that blacks will produce a master race because alcohol will weed out the unfit, so how is this in principle any different to Central Asians? I am not aware of great Central Asian achievements.
    , @Brexit Brexit
    A lot of Ireland's recent development is EU funded, and Britain had to bail Ireland out during the financial crisis in 2010 to the tune of 400 million euros.

    I would say Ireland's resent prosperity has more to do with being net beneficiaries of EU funding for many years (which is why they are so pro-EU) as well as the benevolence and good will of their largest neighbour, Britain rather than their natural potential in terms of IQ.
    , @Coemgen
    The Irish are unique among Europeans as they've survived population bottlenecks such as the 17th century genocide by the English, somewhat reversed by the introduction of the potato, and the 19th century famines due to the failure of the potato. It's hard to compare us to anyone other than AmerInds. We are somewhat simpatico with North Africans such as the Egyptians as we both no longer speak our own languages. Urbanization and getting past the "ignorant in two languages" culture has likely affected Irish performance on standardized tests more than any other influence.
  16. @melanf

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.
     
    In the short term, this factor is not a danger at all because of the very small scale of mixing. In the long run, such a valuable evolutionary mechanism as mass alcoholism (which kills the most stupid and worthless people) in the end overrides all miscegenation

    And besides, is there any evidence that mixing with "Stans and Caucasus" has a negative effect on intelligence? The Irish IQ in the 20th century was estimated at the level of North Africa, and now they surpass England in PISA tests and GDP per capita
    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society. I somehow doubt you can seriously believe that blacks will produce a master race because alcohol will weed out the unfit, so how is this in principle any different to Central Asians? I am not aware of great Central Asian achievements.

    • Replies: @melanf

    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society.
     
    These are different cases. With the indigenous Africans, the population of Eurasia diverged 60-70 thousand years ago. With the aborigines of Australia-50 thousand years ago. During this time, accumulated significant hereditary differences that manifest themselves.
    If there were Neanderthals and denisovans today, our hereditary differences with them would be even greater (and it is not known in whose favor these differences would be)

    But Caucasus is Caucasians, that is, representatives of the "white" race.
    Here is a Dagestani-German family: do you see a big racial difference?

    https://c.radikal.ru/c22/1912/dd/2dff3d153045.jpg

    Stans is a mixture of Europids and Mongoloids, and as we know both races are capable of creating a developed civilization. I can quite admit as an untested hypothesis that there are fundamental hereditary differences in intelligence between (for example) Circassians and Russians, but the evidence for the existence of such a difference is unknown to me.

    , @RadicalCenter
    You're probably right overall. But I think these Kazakh ladies could be called a Central Asian achievement of sorts:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XbMXAuEsDU

  17. @Thulean Friend

    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren’t each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros?
     
    From what I've read, Northern Europeans are more adapted to alcohol, which make East Asians engaging binge-drinking "business culture" even more self-destructive. Though it is important to point out this "culture" was much more prevalent in specifically South Korea during the 60s-90s than it was in Japan or Taiwan at any time.

    I'm too lazy to dig up the relevant quotes on google books now, but I read an interesting book on Korea some years ago where the author goes into this quite a bit. Basically, if you were an ambitious 120+ IQ Korean male with some ambition during their boom years, your liver was simply going to take a huge blow by the time you were 40. There was no avoiding it unless you avoided career advancement.

    Then again, given Unz’s theories on East Asian IQ and how it seems impervious to nutritional effects, maybe we can chalk it up to the same pattern if it didn’t stop their ascent? It’s an fascinating HBD question.


    Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren’t the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.
     
    That's interesting. There's quite a bit of research on the negative effects of loneliness. Marriage is a big reason why some people live longer. Maybe there are unmeasured happiness gains here regarding sociability. East Asians strike me as fairly isolationist people in general, so it is fascinating how their drinking culture tends to be a lot more communitarian, karaoke as you mention being the perfect example. In Sweden, the stereotype was always that you either drink in huge quantities over the weekend (typically in bars with your friends) or you drink alone in some cottage in the forest. Only in recent years have we tried to import a 'continental' habit of drinking moderately over dinner with friends (we now consume more wine than beer, which is a historical oddity).

    Derbyshire mentioned in his China diaries that he was positively impressed by the activities that the elder Chinese were engaged with together as a group and seemed to have less of isolation problems we often have in the West.

    You read a lot about lonely elderly people in Japan, but I wonder if it is really that much worse than what we have. The single most shameful thing I am disgusted by with my culture is our tendency to abandon our elders and put them in elder homes and then largely forget about them.

    Northern European cultures in particular seem to value youth over experience and don’t have much respect for the elderly. Elderly people are seen as outdated in Northern Europe, as having nothing to offer that would benefit modern society. In many Asian cultures, however, elderly people tend to be seen as the wisest people because of their experience. Southern European cultures also value their elderly to a large extent, certainly more than Northern Europeans do.

    I wonder if this is why Northern European cultures are so open to mass immigration, because the immigrants are mostly young and seen to be replacing the elderly, and culturally this is seen as a positive thing in Northern European cultures.

  18. @melanf

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.
     
    In the short term, this factor is not a danger at all because of the very small scale of mixing. In the long run, such a valuable evolutionary mechanism as mass alcoholism (which kills the most stupid and worthless people) in the end overrides all miscegenation

    And besides, is there any evidence that mixing with "Stans and Caucasus" has a negative effect on intelligence? The Irish IQ in the 20th century was estimated at the level of North Africa, and now they surpass England in PISA tests and GDP per capita
    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    A lot of Ireland’s recent development is EU funded, and Britain had to bail Ireland out during the financial crisis in 2010 to the tune of 400 million euros.

    I would say Ireland’s resent prosperity has more to do with being net beneficiaries of EU funding for many years (which is why they are so pro-EU) as well as the benevolence and good will of their largest neighbour, Britain rather than their natural potential in terms of IQ.

    • Replies: @Just passing through
    If you are an IQist, then immigration from Ireland should be treated the same way as immigration from Sierra Leone as both have roughly the same IQ scores.
  19. @neutral

    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ
     
    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society. I somehow doubt you can seriously believe that blacks will produce a master race because alcohol will weed out the unfit, so how is this in principle any different to Central Asians? I am not aware of great Central Asian achievements.

    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society.

    These are different cases. With the indigenous Africans, the population of Eurasia diverged 60-70 thousand years ago. With the aborigines of Australia-50 thousand years ago. During this time, accumulated significant hereditary differences that manifest themselves.
    If there were Neanderthals and denisovans today, our hereditary differences with them would be even greater (and it is not known in whose favor these differences would be)

    But Caucasus is Caucasians, that is, representatives of the “white” race.
    Here is a Dagestani-German family: do you see a big racial difference?

    Stans is a mixture of Europids and Mongoloids, and as we know both races are capable of creating a developed civilization. I can quite admit as an untested hypothesis that there are fundamental hereditary differences in intelligence between (for example) Circassians and Russians, but the evidence for the existence of such a difference is unknown to me.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    Don't get obsessed over optics. I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash, and given the PISA scores for Albania and Kosovo, it's not just a show or theatrics.

    Sure, you can always find the talented tenth in any group, but policy should be made in mind looking at averages and large data sets, not edge cases. And that's not even talking about their religion.

  20. @Thulean Friend

    According to an OECD survey of adult cognitive skills c.2012, Russia has the second-lowest difference between the performance of its oldest (55-65 y/o) and youngest (16-24 y/o) cohort of any major industrialized country bar England & Northern Ireland. The Soviet alcoholization crisis began precisely around the mid-1960s, i.e. just around the time those 55-65 y/o’s had physically matured.
     
    OTOH, this also means any potential productivity gains will be much lower than countries where the skills gap is much larger between the generations, as the young phase out the old. As for alcholism, South Korea famously had a very hard-drinking business culture and it is no exaggeration to say that many South Korean men (women largely were largely absent at the higher ends of their economy, which is what drives productivity) were essentially functional alcoholics in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Alcoholism probably did not help, but it also famously did not hinder South Korea, though their drinking habits have calmed in recent years as it has in Russia.

    If you look at the PIAAC study, South Korea had huge skills gaps between young and old, whereas Russia has not. This skills gap is also present in China, as evidenced by the fact that many Chinese over the age of 50 often don't even have a high school education. By contrast, Russia's over-50 population was much more skilled. Arguably one of the most skilled in the eastern bloc. If they failed to build a prosperous society thus far, given the minimal skills gap to the youth(unlike China and Korea), you're basically betting the farm on less alcohol being a magic productivity booster. That is a very big gamble.

    Education provided by government is trash. It literally selects for nothing. A bugman can pass any government curriculum. Industry is not built by bugmen it is staffed by them. A regular red neck will be able to do a bug men’s job. So the fact that Soviets were most educated work force means nothing and the fact that the west had entire generations of non college grads run industry also means I am correct.

  21. @melanf

    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society.
     
    These are different cases. With the indigenous Africans, the population of Eurasia diverged 60-70 thousand years ago. With the aborigines of Australia-50 thousand years ago. During this time, accumulated significant hereditary differences that manifest themselves.
    If there were Neanderthals and denisovans today, our hereditary differences with them would be even greater (and it is not known in whose favor these differences would be)

    But Caucasus is Caucasians, that is, representatives of the "white" race.
    Here is a Dagestani-German family: do you see a big racial difference?

    https://c.radikal.ru/c22/1912/dd/2dff3d153045.jpg

    Stans is a mixture of Europids and Mongoloids, and as we know both races are capable of creating a developed civilization. I can quite admit as an untested hypothesis that there are fundamental hereditary differences in intelligence between (for example) Circassians and Russians, but the evidence for the existence of such a difference is unknown to me.

    Don’t get obsessed over optics. I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash, and given the PISA scores for Albania and Kosovo, it’s not just a show or theatrics.

    Sure, you can always find the talented tenth in any group, but policy should be made in mind looking at averages and large data sets, not edge cases. And that’s not even talking about their religion.

    • Replies: @Brexit Brexit
    Why do you think Albanians behave so degenerately by European standards? I don't think it's just because it's a majority Muslim country because Turks are no where near as criminal and degenerate as Albanians and Turkey is even more Muslim than Albania is.

    I would guess that it's mainly an IQ thing, their average IQ is 80 and their behaviour reflects that like black behaviour does. Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.
    , @melanf

    I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash
     
    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century - for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization. Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc
  22. @Thulean Friend
    Don't get obsessed over optics. I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash, and given the PISA scores for Albania and Kosovo, it's not just a show or theatrics.

    Sure, you can always find the talented tenth in any group, but policy should be made in mind looking at averages and large data sets, not edge cases. And that's not even talking about their religion.

    Why do you think Albanians behave so degenerately by European standards? I don’t think it’s just because it’s a majority Muslim country because Turks are no where near as criminal and degenerate as Albanians and Turkey is even more Muslim than Albania is.

    I would guess that it’s mainly an IQ thing, their average IQ is 80 and their behaviour reflects that like black behaviour does. Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.
     
    I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were.There were a few aggressive street hawkers, but it was a distinct minority. They had better manners than many natives in Eastern European countries I've visited. Granted, Istanbul is their cognitive and economic center and even the proles there will be of ahigher standard, but still.

    I was also witness to a beautiful spontaneous dance which happened on a boat when crossing to one of the outer islands in the vicinity of Istanbul. I think I spoke about it before, it wasn't the kind of drunken gyrating movements which is becoming the norm in the West. Most of the dancers were actually just men dancing among themselves but then quite a few women joined in. It was just about joy. There was no alcohol and it was in broad daylight. Completely impossible to witness something like that in Northern Europe.

    My experience with the turkish diaspora in Sweden is more mixed, and more negative, than what I saw in Turkey. Though they still behave better than albanians. It should be noted that most of the turks here are anatolian trash drawn from their backwaters back home. There could also be a cultural effect at play here. Alienation does tend to inspire ghetto behaviour. When turks are in their own native environment, they probably feel more secure and more confident, hence less need to act like a meathead brute in a quest to 'get respect'. I thought I'd see a lot of that in Istanbul which is why I was hesitant about going but I was positively surprised on the contrary.
  23. @neutral
    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects.

    Sometimes it goes down sometimes it goes up. Overall the assimilation of the various minority people’s has been a plus for the Russian Race and Nation. Example being Wildberries (Russian: ООО «Вайлдберриз») is the largest Russian online retailer. The company was founded in 2004 by Tatyana and Vladislav Bakalchuk. Mrs. Bakalchuk started the business in 2004 at age 28 in her Moscow apartment while on maternity leave from teaching. She realized how difficult it was for her and other young mothers to shop for clothes for themselves with a newborn at home. Her husband, Vladislav, an IT technician, soon joined her to help grow the business. In 2017 Wildberries had revenues for $1 billion,. In 2018 Wildberries works in 5 countries: Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Armenia, with more than 20 000 employees.

    Tatyana Vladimirovna Bakalchuk (Russian: Татьяна Владимировна Бакальчук; born on 16 October 1975) is a Russian entrepreneur of Korean ethnicity. Children 4.

    Husband Vladislav Bakalchuk.

    business-magazine.ba/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Tatjana_Bakalčuk_2.jpg

    • Replies: @Brexit Brexit
    Maybe Russians will eventually merge racially and maybe even politically with the East Asians and become literally Eurasians? Maybe that is why the concept of Eurasia is so popular in Russia?
  24. @Blinky Bill

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects.
     
    Sometimes it goes down sometimes it goes up. Overall the assimilation of the various minority people's has been a plus for the Russian Race and Nation. Example being Wildberries (Russian: ООО «Вайлдберриз») is the largest Russian online retailer. The company was founded in 2004 by Tatyana and Vladislav Bakalchuk. Mrs. Bakalchuk started the business in 2004 at age 28 in her Moscow apartment while on maternity leave from teaching. She realized how difficult it was for her and other young mothers to shop for clothes for themselves with a newborn at home. Her husband, Vladislav, an IT technician, soon joined her to help grow the business. In 2017 Wildberries had revenues for $1 billion,. In 2018 Wildberries works in 5 countries: Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Armenia, with more than 20 000 employees.

    https://i0.wp.com/hybridtechcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/download-26.png

    Tatyana Vladimirovna Bakalchuk (Russian: Татьяна Владимировна Бакальчук; born on 16 October 1975) is a Russian entrepreneur of Korean ethnicity. Children 4.

    Husband Vladislav Bakalchuk.

    business-magazine.ba/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Tatjana_Bakalčuk_2.jpg

    Maybe Russians will eventually merge racially and maybe even politically with the East Asians and become literally Eurasians? Maybe that is why the concept of Eurasia is so popular in Russia?

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Very unlikely. The chances of the British Race merging with Africans and Asians is far higher.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/mcs/media/images/74958000/jpg/_74958030_paulgiggswalesgetty.jpg


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Lord_Coe_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012_cropped.jpg/495px-Lord_Coe_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_2012_cropped.jpg

  25. @Brexit Brexit
    Maybe Russians will eventually merge racially and maybe even politically with the East Asians and become literally Eurasians? Maybe that is why the concept of Eurasia is so popular in Russia?

    Very unlikely. The chances of the British Race merging with Africans and Asians is far higher.

  26. @Thulean Friend
    Don't get obsessed over optics. I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash, and given the PISA scores for Albania and Kosovo, it's not just a show or theatrics.

    Sure, you can always find the talented tenth in any group, but policy should be made in mind looking at averages and large data sets, not edge cases. And that's not even talking about their religion.

    I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash

    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century – for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization. Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc
     
    #shotsfired :)

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.


    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
     
    PISA is strongly g-loaded. I am open to multiple causes. I have never been a 100% hereditarian. But if you're going to launch this theory, by all means do it, but then the onus is on you to provice an alternative theory for why albanians are so uniquely shitty among the balkanoids.
    , @utu

    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century – for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization.
     
    Good point. It is all about culture and assimilation to the prevalent cultural norms. The IQ fetishists are as usual blinded by their fetish. Albanians are no different than some groups of Israelis, or Jews or "Russian" mafia guys. They are not pleasant people , they can be dangerous and they should be avoided and no country should be welcoming to them.
  27. Maybe Russians will eventually merge racially and maybe even politically with the East Asians and become literally Eurasians?

    Frankly speaking, based on current trends, Europeans and Americans will become Eurasians much earlier. Here is the crowd in Vladivostok

    Here is a typical school class in Blagoveshchensk (the city is located right on the border with China-it is enough to cross the bridge over the Amur)

    Maybe that is why the concept of Eurasia is so popular in Russia?

    I doubt very much that this concept is popular in Russia.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    https://herbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/vladimir_putin-1.jpg

    You never know 😂
  28. @Brexit Brexit
    Why do you think Albanians behave so degenerately by European standards? I don't think it's just because it's a majority Muslim country because Turks are no where near as criminal and degenerate as Albanians and Turkey is even more Muslim than Albania is.

    I would guess that it's mainly an IQ thing, their average IQ is 80 and their behaviour reflects that like black behaviour does. Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.

    Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.

    I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were.There were a few aggressive street hawkers, but it was a distinct minority. They had better manners than many natives in Eastern European countries I’ve visited. Granted, Istanbul is their cognitive and economic center and even the proles there will be of ahigher standard, but still.

    I was also witness to a beautiful spontaneous dance which happened on a boat when crossing to one of the outer islands in the vicinity of Istanbul. I think I spoke about it before, it wasn’t the kind of drunken gyrating movements which is becoming the norm in the West. Most of the dancers were actually just men dancing among themselves but then quite a few women joined in. It was just about joy. There was no alcohol and it was in broad daylight. Completely impossible to witness something like that in Northern Europe.

    My experience with the turkish diaspora in Sweden is more mixed, and more negative, than what I saw in Turkey. Though they still behave better than albanians. It should be noted that most of the turks here are anatolian trash drawn from their backwaters back home. There could also be a cultural effect at play here. Alienation does tend to inspire ghetto behaviour. When turks are in their own native environment, they probably feel more secure and more confident, hence less need to act like a meathead brute in a quest to ‘get respect’. I thought I’d see a lot of that in Istanbul which is why I was hesitant about going but I was positively surprised on the contrary.

    • Replies: @jbwilson24
    "I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were"

    Let me get this straight, you went to the tourist trap and as a result of meeting friendly people, you are extrapolating to the rest of the country?

    Sure, they were courteous, as they know that your presence in their country aids their economy. They weren't so courteous to their ethnic minority populations.

    Go to the smaller towns with no tourists and you'll get a much better read on the actual Turkish attitudes.
  29. @melanf

    I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash
     
    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century - for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization. Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc

    Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc

    #shotsfired 🙂

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.

    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?

    PISA is strongly g-loaded. I am open to multiple causes. I have never been a 100% hereditarian. But if you’re going to launch this theory, by all means do it, but then the onus is on you to provice an alternative theory for why albanians are so uniquely shitty among the balkanoids.

    • Replies: @melanf

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.
     
    Grandson of Rurik Svyatoslav stated his credo: "I am not one of those despicable people that earn their bread by work, I take everything by force."
    The Vikings had about the same ideals. In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different - there are accumulated relevant evidence.
  30. @Brexit Brexit
    A lot of Ireland's recent development is EU funded, and Britain had to bail Ireland out during the financial crisis in 2010 to the tune of 400 million euros.

    I would say Ireland's resent prosperity has more to do with being net beneficiaries of EU funding for many years (which is why they are so pro-EU) as well as the benevolence and good will of their largest neighbour, Britain rather than their natural potential in terms of IQ.

    If you are an IQist, then immigration from Ireland should be treated the same way as immigration from Sierra Leone as both have roughly the same IQ scores.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Ryan Giggs was born at St David's Hospital in Canton, Cardiff, to Danny Wilson, a rugby union player for Cardiff RFC, and Lynne Giggs (now Lynne Johnson). Giggs is mixed race – his paternal grandfather is from Sierra Leone and has spoken of the racism he faced as a child. 😉
  31. @Daniel Chieh
    No, East Asians are less well adapted to alcohol.

    https://gizmodo.com/yet-more-research-links-even-light-drinking-to-a-higher-1840324572

    I don’t think I see many East Asian drunks. Plenty of northern Europeans though. Scandos, Irish, Scots, Russians etc. Their bodies just don’t seem used to alcohol, and need to go through a few more hundred years of adaption.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    A lot of Orientals just don't drink, their body just doesn't handle alcohol. Northern Europeans binge drinking is a different phenomenon, just drinking a lot more than they can handle.
  32. @melanf

    I have met many Albanians living here who could pass as 100% white, blond and blue-eyed and all the rest. Yet they behave like low-IQ trash
     
    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century - for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization. Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc

    If tomorrow in the Sweden mountains will find valley where live real Vikings not changed with 9 century – for these Vikings will require several generations, to successfully integrate in modern civilization.

    Good point. It is all about culture and assimilation to the prevalent cultural norms. The IQ fetishists are as usual blinded by their fetish. Albanians are no different than some groups of Israelis, or Jews or “Russian” mafia guys. They are not pleasant people , they can be dangerous and they should be avoided and no country should be welcoming to them.

  33. @Thulean Friend

    Before that, they (for the most part) will behave like low IQ trash-engage in banditry, begging, participating in MMA, selling their daughters to brothels etc
     
    #shotsfired :)

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.


    Is there any evidence they behave this way because of hereditary characteristics, and not other factors?
     
    PISA is strongly g-loaded. I am open to multiple causes. I have never been a 100% hereditarian. But if you're going to launch this theory, by all means do it, but then the onus is on you to provice an alternative theory for why albanians are so uniquely shitty among the balkanoids.

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.

    Grandson of Rurik Svyatoslav stated his credo: “I am not one of those despicable people that earn their bread by work, I take everything by force.”
    The Vikings had about the same ideals. In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different – there are accumulated relevant evidence.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
     
    Right, but you are mixing 9th century vikings with albanians in 2019 and thinking it is the same. It is an absurd comparison. Naturally anyone, no matter how bright, who came out in a time machine from over 1000 years ago would struggle in our hypertechnological (in historical terms) economy.

    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different – there are accumulated relevant evidence.
     
    If you don't want to focus on tests, that's fine. Tests are an imperfect proxy of ability. It can never replace the real world. Look at the historical achievements of Swedes vs Circassians or albanians and adjust per capita. Which group comes out as far more cognitively capable? If you want to claim that there are cultural factors for these gigantic disparities then you'll be warmly welcomed in any bog standard western anthropological humanities seminar.
    , @Haruto Rat
    Having been brought up in a culture with mañana attitude surely could affect one's performance in timed tests.

    Such attitudes are widespread globally (mañana is just a well-publicized word), and they don't go away easily. It takes ~three generations of assembly line training to change them.
  34. @Just passing through
    If you are an IQist, then immigration from Ireland should be treated the same way as immigration from Sierra Leone as both have roughly the same IQ scores.

    Ryan Giggs was born at St David’s Hospital in Canton, Cardiff, to Danny Wilson, a rugby union player for Cardiff RFC, and Lynne Giggs (now Lynne Johnson). Giggs is mixed race – his paternal grandfather is from Sierra Leone and has spoken of the racism he faced as a child. 😉

  35. @melanf

    Maybe Russians will eventually merge racially and maybe even politically with the East Asians and become literally Eurasians?
     
    Frankly speaking, based on current trends, Europeans and Americans will become Eurasians much earlier. Here is the crowd in Vladivostok

    https://vladnews.ru/uploads/news/2018/04/16/f82383fd98ed993611df30d1ebad4b9b9bc6bfb5.jpeg


    Here is a typical school class in Blagoveshchensk (the city is located right on the border with China-it is enough to cross the bridge over the Amur)

    https://a.radikal.ru/a30/1912/ed/d9771e5eed48.jpg


    Maybe that is why the concept of Eurasia is so popular in Russia?
     
    I doubt very much that this concept is popular in Russia.

    You never know 😂

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • LOL: Thulean Friend
  36. @melanf

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.
     
    Grandson of Rurik Svyatoslav stated his credo: "I am not one of those despicable people that earn their bread by work, I take everything by force."
    The Vikings had about the same ideals. In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different - there are accumulated relevant evidence.

    In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).

    Right, but you are mixing 9th century vikings with albanians in 2019 and thinking it is the same. It is an absurd comparison. Naturally anyone, no matter how bright, who came out in a time machine from over 1000 years ago would struggle in our hypertechnological (in historical terms) economy.

    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different – there are accumulated relevant evidence.

    If you don’t want to focus on tests, that’s fine. Tests are an imperfect proxy of ability. It can never replace the real world. Look at the historical achievements of Swedes vs Circassians or albanians and adjust per capita. Which group comes out as far more cognitively capable? If you want to claim that there are cultural factors for these gigantic disparities then you’ll be warmly welcomed in any bog standard western anthropological humanities seminar.

    • Replies: @melanf

    Look at the historical achievements of Swedes vs Circassians
     
    There is a similar unresolved question-is this difference (in historical achievements) determined by hereditary differences between the Swedes and Circassians, or other factors?
    What would happen if in the 8th century proto-Circassians and proto-Swedes were reversed, the Circassians would be settled in Scandinavia, and the Swedes-in the North Caucasus? No one knows
  37. @TelfoedJohn
    I don’t think I see many East Asian drunks. Plenty of northern Europeans though. Scandos, Irish, Scots, Russians etc. Their bodies just don’t seem used to alcohol, and need to go through a few more hundred years of adaption.

    A lot of Orientals just don’t drink, their body just doesn’t handle alcohol. Northern Europeans binge drinking is a different phenomenon, just drinking a lot more than they can handle.

  38. @melanf

    As for vikings, should you really insult your own ancestors? Vikings founded Rus, after all.
     
    Grandson of Rurik Svyatoslav stated his credo: "I am not one of those despicable people that earn their bread by work, I take everything by force."
    The Vikings had about the same ideals. In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different - there are accumulated relevant evidence.

    Having been brought up in a culture with mañana attitude surely could affect one’s performance in timed tests.

    Such attitudes are widespread globally (mañana is just a well-publicized word), and they don’t go away easily. It takes ~three generations of assembly line training to change them.

  39. we are probably observing the same effect in Germany, in former East Germany. about 30% of the Germans in Germany are in former East Germany. it’s now been 30 years since reunification. looking at the results for PISA 2018, if you check the results for German Germans, and not the combined results for all 15 year olds in Germany, they are doing about the same as the Japanese. roughly converting PISA to wechsler, German 15 year olds are doing 1o2 to 103 in reading, and 103 to 104 in math. i don’t know if there is a state by state breakdown in Germany, but that would answer the question. previously, the German Germans were doing about 102 on these tests for years, so now they’re about 1 to 2 points higher. my guess as to the reason, is improving conditions in the east.

    the takeaway? a serious version of communism, lasting decades, can probably deliver a -3 to -5 point intelligence penalty, based on periodic food shortages, periodic population purges, and an education system that is as much indoctrination as it it teaching reading and math. not enough of a penalty to turn the citizens of the communist country into barely functional third worlders, but enough to affect them negatively, and be detectable on standardized tests.

  40. @songbird
    The way I think it works is East Asians are better adapted to the presence of alcohol, meaning somewhat counter-intuitively that they have a worse reaction to drinking. It is this worse reaction, perhaps best typified by alcohol flush, which makes them less likely to be alcoholics. But the whole idea is that it was a trait which was selected due to a longer exposure to alcohol than Northern Europeans. So, it is not worse in the same way as how Amerinds might react to alcohol.

    From wiki:

    Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate
     
    I could see why Southern China would be different than Europe, but in a way it seems strange that Japan and Korea are different. I wonder what explains it. These gradients of alcohol tolerance are really fascinating. I think I recall hearing that there is some gene that has a West to East gradient within Europe, but it was behind a paywall, so I never read the paper.

    I agree, the stereotypical Asian respect for elders is something that they do right. Another thing, IMO, is the intact marriages.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy crowd. It is almost like they are better adapted for urban living, but, in that context, it is hard to explain their low TFR.

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy… better adapted

    It’s because Chinese are mainly a third world people (and have ascended to industrialized proletariat only recently).

    They can still do some natural things like sleeping without laboratory conditions – e.g. Chinese workers can probably sleep on factory floor without a mattress.

    Similarly, many American pioneers in the 19th century, could pull wagons across the landscapes, fight with Indians, not eat food for days, and probably could still sleep easily outside with a rock as their pillow.

    Whereas nowadays, Americans – after a century of embourgeoisement – can unlikely sleep without air conditioning, and luxury Egyptian cotton sheets; and as in the Hans Christian Andersen, might detect a pea under a dozen mattresses.

    In Russia, there are a lot of memes (about 99% true) about tough peasant old grandmothers, who perhaps traverse frozen rivers each morning at age 85. But this is becoming a generational artifact even in such villages- their children might already be weak souls, who panic if their shoes become wet.

    When men’s conditions improve, so does their sensitivity – in the end, the population of wealthy countries, might not sleep better, but simply become like princesses, puzzled that people could sleep with a pea in their bed.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    I've wondered if there might be some genetically-based difference in the concept of personal space between Asians and Europeans. The trouble is that there are all these confounding factors.

    I'd like to take a time machine back to observe Europeans when they often lived 12 people in a one room house. Would they be clingy in an open space? Afraid to sleep alone?

    What seems strange to me is that I have observed rural Vietnamese congregate very closely together in a very large open space, but perhaps it has something to do with standard of living, as you imply.
  41. @songbird
    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren't each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren't the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.

    seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan

    Apparently salarymen in Japan are often expected to drink for hours afterwork with their colleagues, sometimes all night – almost as part of a hazing by the corporation.

    I’ve heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.

    It’s surprising Japan still has the highest life expectancy in the world, considering how much stress their workforce might experience.

    In Tokyo, you can see salarymen trying to arrive home drunkly.

    E.g. this is probably what happens next morning if you fail to stay conscious on a journey to home

    • Replies: @songbird
    My theory on the binge drinking is that it is more a trust-building exercise. To conclude a big deal, or just for the organization to bond.

    It might be partly influenced by the low crime in Japan. Maybe, they feel safer to get drunk out of their minds.

    My theory on the famous Japanese long life spans is that it has to do with other metabolic pathways. Not just their diet, but that their genes are adapted for their diet.

    But I wonder whether their drinking culture is doomed, as this info on cancer becomes more well-known. Smoking is in decline in Japan.

    I’ve heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.
     
    I absolutely hate this sort of thing. It often happens in America, and it is pretty egregious because a lot of people are stuck in dead-end jobs, and their boss might be a diversity hire. Better way is for each to pay his own.
  42. @neutral

    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ
     
    The opposite holds true, there are no real examples of certain races every producing anything that can be considered a successful society. I somehow doubt you can seriously believe that blacks will produce a master race because alcohol will weed out the unfit, so how is this in principle any different to Central Asians? I am not aware of great Central Asian achievements.

    You’re probably right overall. But I think these Kazakh ladies could be called a Central Asian achievement of sorts:

  43. @Thulean Friend

    Turks, despite being Muslims, are less violent and degenerate because their average IQ is 90.
     
    I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were.There were a few aggressive street hawkers, but it was a distinct minority. They had better manners than many natives in Eastern European countries I've visited. Granted, Istanbul is their cognitive and economic center and even the proles there will be of ahigher standard, but still.

    I was also witness to a beautiful spontaneous dance which happened on a boat when crossing to one of the outer islands in the vicinity of Istanbul. I think I spoke about it before, it wasn't the kind of drunken gyrating movements which is becoming the norm in the West. Most of the dancers were actually just men dancing among themselves but then quite a few women joined in. It was just about joy. There was no alcohol and it was in broad daylight. Completely impossible to witness something like that in Northern Europe.

    My experience with the turkish diaspora in Sweden is more mixed, and more negative, than what I saw in Turkey. Though they still behave better than albanians. It should be noted that most of the turks here are anatolian trash drawn from their backwaters back home. There could also be a cultural effect at play here. Alienation does tend to inspire ghetto behaviour. When turks are in their own native environment, they probably feel more secure and more confident, hence less need to act like a meathead brute in a quest to 'get respect'. I thought I'd see a lot of that in Istanbul which is why I was hesitant about going but I was positively surprised on the contrary.

    “I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were”

    Let me get this straight, you went to the tourist trap and as a result of meeting friendly people, you are extrapolating to the rest of the country?

    Sure, they were courteous, as they know that your presence in their country aids their economy. They weren’t so courteous to their ethnic minority populations.

    Go to the smaller towns with no tourists and you’ll get a much better read on the actual Turkish attitudes.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Sure, they were courteous, as they know that your presence in their country aids their economy.
     
    You'd be surprised how basic knowledge like this is elusive for quite a few in EE.

    Go to the smaller towns with no tourists and you’ll get a much better read on the actual Turkish attitudes.
     
    Smaller towns are not more representative of turkey than istanbul is. You seem to suffer from the small town romanticisation delusion. Small towns are a part of turkey. But given how urbanised their country is, it is not where the majority population resides now.
  44. @melanf

    The miscegenation effect in the end overrides all Flynn effects. The increasing race mixing with people from the Stans and Caucasus is surely going to lower IQ with time.
     
    In the short term, this factor is not a danger at all because of the very small scale of mixing. In the long run, such a valuable evolutionary mechanism as mass alcoholism (which kills the most stupid and worthless people) in the end overrides all miscegenation

    And besides, is there any evidence that mixing with "Stans and Caucasus" has a negative effect on intelligence? The Irish IQ in the 20th century was estimated at the level of North Africa, and now they surpass England in PISA tests and GDP per capita
    There are too many such examples to take seriously this whole cult of hereditary IQ

    The Irish are unique among Europeans as they’ve survived population bottlenecks such as the 17th century genocide by the English, somewhat reversed by the introduction of the potato, and the 19th century famines due to the failure of the potato. It’s hard to compare us to anyone other than AmerInds. We are somewhat simpatico with North Africans such as the Egyptians as we both no longer speak our own languages. Urbanization and getting past the “ignorant in two languages” culture has likely affected Irish performance on standardized tests more than any other influence.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    Does the Black Death not ring a bell?

    There was no genocide against the Irish.
  45. @Daniel Chieh

    I know plenty of men who either earn the same or less than their girlfriends and they still split the bill all the time. It’s seen as a non-issue. That makes the economics of a relationship work easier given that most men in either society are not high-earners by mathematical inevitability of the bell curve.
     
    Ew(and I imagine that's the reaction of a lot of other Asian men).

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise. I do agree with spandrell's belief that Asian fertility was heavily driven by much lower traditional status of women and culture has never been able to quite compensate since.

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise.

    American society did it after the end of WW2, big time.

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/03/16/operation-june-cleaver/

    The author is telling this from a liberal point of view, but the Midcentury posters she collects and uploads speak for themselves – just look and read the authentic ad texts if you want a neutral picture. Fast forward 15-20 years, and the children born to those women in suburban paradises… became hippies, participated in Beatles mania and Woodstock and all kinds of weird experimentation. It seems they were willing to try anything (up to becoming the most divorced generation, and questionable fashion choices that now embarrass them forever in old photographs) to avoid repeating what they saw in their childhood. Director Tim Burton was one of them and made the movie Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors and made their windows smaller specially to emphasize that feeling).

    Obviously something was wrong and unsustainable there. I don’t think the semi-autistic video gamers who come up with this idea now are wiser than American wartime propagandists, so if some miracle gave them power to implement it, they would probably screw up even worse.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors
     
    Edward Scissorhands - sadly this style of American suburb life didn't end in 1960. The suburb is actually constructed around 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llsgDQUUgu8. . Only the castle was not real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOzki25ia1w.

    Babyboomer generation in America, perhaps were revolutionary to things like non-traditional hairstyles and gender politics. But in terms of the sadness of suburb life: it seems like this trend continued to intensify through most of their life. It looks like a much larger trend of 20th century America, rather than any generation's choice.

    Many suburbanization trends* look like they continue to intensify in 1960s-1980s America. Mass production of automobiles had allowed ordinary Americans to escape the pollution and crime of cities, and to live in houses, instead of apartments.

    It is only from the 1990-2000-s, with reduction in crime and the reduction in air pollution (due to deindustrialization), that America's suburbanization trend has some hope of reversing.

    America now is lowering its crime rates, and deindustrializing (meaning reducing pollution levels in the city). Moreover, new apartment buildings in America can be high quality (although with high rents) and competitive with houses. So city life is becoming more attractive finally.

    There is still a problem of lack of investment in public transport for cities. And American cities also need to invest more in things like bicycle lanes, bicycle infrastructure, congestion charging, etc.

    -

    * e.g. domination of automobiles
    https://i.imgur.com/4VzL4Jk.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/EdvUHfn.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/vEi6SXT.jpg

    , @songbird
    Interesting theory. I always thought that Edward Scissorhands represented some natural hatred that liberals in the US had for suburbs and country.

    Why the hatred? They hated them because they used to be white and relatively wealthy, and the cities were in obvious decay after the Great Migration. And a lot of these places were Republican strongholds.

    I once read some crazy opinion peace which took a kind of reverse Pol Pot view, that people should be forced to live in the city. It seemed to primarily be about taxing them and elevating blacks. I think environmental stuff is just secondary.
  46. @Coemgen
    The Irish are unique among Europeans as they've survived population bottlenecks such as the 17th century genocide by the English, somewhat reversed by the introduction of the potato, and the 19th century famines due to the failure of the potato. It's hard to compare us to anyone other than AmerInds. We are somewhat simpatico with North Africans such as the Egyptians as we both no longer speak our own languages. Urbanization and getting past the "ignorant in two languages" culture has likely affected Irish performance on standardized tests more than any other influence.

    Does the Black Death not ring a bell?

    There was no genocide against the Irish.

    • Replies: @Coemgen
    You probably believe there were no highland clearances in the 18th century.
  47. @EldnahYm
    Does the Black Death not ring a bell?

    There was no genocide against the Irish.

    You probably believe there were no highland clearances in the 18th century.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    Sure there were.
  48. @Coemgen
    You probably believe there were no highland clearances in the 18th century.

    Sure there were.

    • Replies: @Eugene N
    The famine was a genocide, it wouldn't have happened to peasants in the cotswolds and the island was probably in a food surplus. Probably more so than the Island of Britain, which then, as now, isnt. Not that it matters even if Ireland wasn't in food deficit ( but it was) because while a country can be in food deficit, food can be imported. The biggest empire in the world didnt do that, and that was government policy.

    As for the Irish IQ - I suggest IQists, to be taken seriously, should probably attribute the recent rises in Irish IQ to a delayed Flynn effect. All other claims fall down.

    The Irish American IQ is the same as the average white IQ in US, this is explained by suggesting the smart emigrate. However that wasn't true in Ireland. In Ireland the poor emigrated and the middle classes stayed behind, at least that was the case until the 1990s or so. It was especially the case post the famine when the poorest of the poor left Ireland. (Even if the emigration were from the smartest percentile - which it wasn't - it should have reduced over time with the supposed ethnic regression to the mean.)

    A different claim the emigrants had more English blood also falls down. The emigrants to the US were the West, the most Irish part of Ireland.

    Northern Ireland does better than the UK in schools and the catholic ( native Irish) schools do better than protestant schools. This is dismissed as not being the real Ireland. Makes no sense. In fact of the top 10 performing schools (measured in A levels) 9 where catholic.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-alevel-league-table-for-northern-ireland-catholic-schools-dominate-top-positions-37935503.html


    And then theres the Pisa results. Not real IQ, shout the IQists but if IQ doesn't measure school results then what is the point of it? What is it actually measuring? Ireland does above average in that ( above 100 if you map to IQ) and is up with the Asians on reading. 5th in the world in the last one.

    Easier solution - a delayed Flynn effect.
    , @Coemgen
    In Ireland, the "clearances" were called "plantations." Both countries are close to being totally anglicized. Compare them to Wales which didn't experience clearances or plantations. Wales is much more Welsh than either Ireland or Scotland is Gaelic.
  49. @jbwilson24
    "I was in Istanbul this summer and I was blown away how courteous most turks were"

    Let me get this straight, you went to the tourist trap and as a result of meeting friendly people, you are extrapolating to the rest of the country?

    Sure, they were courteous, as they know that your presence in their country aids their economy. They weren't so courteous to their ethnic minority populations.

    Go to the smaller towns with no tourists and you'll get a much better read on the actual Turkish attitudes.

    Sure, they were courteous, as they know that your presence in their country aids their economy.

    You’d be surprised how basic knowledge like this is elusive for quite a few in EE.

    Go to the smaller towns with no tourists and you’ll get a much better read on the actual Turkish attitudes.

    Smaller towns are not more representative of turkey than istanbul is. You seem to suffer from the small town romanticisation delusion. Small towns are a part of turkey. But given how urbanised their country is, it is not where the majority population resides now.

  50. @Toronto Russian

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise.
     
    American society did it after the end of WW2, big time.

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/03/16/operation-june-cleaver/

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/wwii-women-wacs-tide-housewife.jpg

    The author is telling this from a liberal point of view, but the Midcentury posters she collects and uploads speak for themselves - just look and read the authentic ad texts if you want a neutral picture. Fast forward 15-20 years, and the children born to those women in suburban paradises... became hippies, participated in Beatles mania and Woodstock and all kinds of weird experimentation. It seems they were willing to try anything (up to becoming the most divorced generation, and questionable fashion choices that now embarrass them forever in old photographs) to avoid repeating what they saw in their childhood. Director Tim Burton was one of them and made the movie Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors and made their windows smaller specially to emphasize that feeling).

    Obviously something was wrong and unsustainable there. I don't think the semi-autistic video gamers who come up with this idea now are wiser than American wartime propagandists, so if some miracle gave them power to implement it, they would probably screw up even worse.

    Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors

    Edward Scissorhands – sadly this style of American suburb life didn’t end in 1960. The suburb is actually constructed around 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llsgDQUUgu8. . Only the castle was not real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOzki25ia1w.

    Babyboomer generation in America, perhaps were revolutionary to things like non-traditional hairstyles and gender politics. But in terms of the sadness of suburb life: it seems like this trend continued to intensify through most of their life. It looks like a much larger trend of 20th century America, rather than any generation’s choice.

    Many suburbanization trends* look like they continue to intensify in 1960s-1980s America. Mass production of automobiles had allowed ordinary Americans to escape the pollution and crime of cities, and to live in houses, instead of apartments.

    It is only from the 1990-2000-s, with reduction in crime and the reduction in air pollution (due to deindustrialization), that America’s suburbanization trend has some hope of reversing.

    America now is lowering its crime rates, and deindustrializing (meaning reducing pollution levels in the city). Moreover, new apartment buildings in America can be high quality (although with high rents) and competitive with houses. So city life is becoming more attractive finally.

    There is still a problem of lack of investment in public transport for cities. And American cities also need to invest more in things like bicycle lanes, bicycle infrastructure, congestion charging, etc.

    * e.g. domination of automobiles

  51. Re: Jersey City shooting

    I’m surprised nobody on Sailer mentioned that the mass shooting
    in Jersey City, across the Hudson River from Manhattan, was partly
    a result of turf war between the incoming Hasidic Jews from Brooklyn
    and the old established black population.

    As I always say, to understand American Jews study the Jewish life in
    Poland (or more generally in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).
    The vast majority of American Jews come from that region. Warsaw until
    1890 had the world’s largest Jewish population (then New York began
    to take over). As the Jews were typically Orthodox and Hasidic, they had
    very high birth rates. The Jewish section (unlike in W. Europe there were
    no ghettoes in Poland) was located just north and west of the central
    railroad station in Warsaw. And being close to the train station, it also
    had a number of bordellos. Warsaw is surrounded by countless small
    towns which until 1939 hosted thousands of Jews with huge families.
    Ben-Gurion was born in one of those small towns north of Warsaw.
    Feynman’s ancestors came from Minsk Mazowiecki, southeast of Warsaw.
    The Nobelist Bashevis Singer grew up in Warsaw itself, as did Mileikowski,
    Netanyahu’s father. By the way, people in Poland joke that Israel is a Polish
    colony in the Middle East because it was founded by people from Greater
    Poland.

    Paralleling what happened in Warsaw, the huge fertility rates of the Orthodox
    and Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn are forcing them to move to small towns around
    New York where the housing costs are much lower, encountering opposition
    everywhere they go. A few years ago the controversy involved the town of
    Kiryas Joel in the Newburgh region north of NYC. Now it’s Toms River, NJ,
    and Jersey City, NJ. A black woman in the video someone posted on Sailer
    is heard saying, “We didn’t have those problems until the Jews moved in.”
    As the Hasidic Jewish population is exploding in the NYC area, increasingly
    they will come in conflict with blacks, which may be very unpleasant, as
    yesterday’s shooting demonstrated.

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made
    sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated
    areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors.
    Some might even respond with violence.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors. Some might even respond with violence.
     
    I'm having trouble following your reasoning. You're saying that Jews shouldn't take over American cities because some nig-nogs might have their feelings hurt? Really? There's a four letter word for that, starts with a 'c', ends with a 'uck'.

    Second point: 'Orthodox Judaism' has nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Levantine religions 2000 years ago. Judaism is a post-Christian religion and an explicit reaction to Christianity, and its 'Orthodox' strain is a new-age variety invented after the European so-called 'Enlightenment'.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Doesn't this depend, though, on whether the very fruitful ultra-Orthodox Jews are earning enough to support those large families, versus burdening the public fisc?

    Orthodox Jewish parents with seven kids whom they are able to support would not seem unreasonably "selfish" compared to their non-Jewish or non-Orthodox neighbor who has three children whom neither she nor the father(s) come close to supporting.

    Incidentally, try striking up a conversation with some ultra-Orthodox folks sometime and see what it is like not to exist. Had that charming experience when spending the day with our children in parks and playgrounds several times in Bergen County, New Jersey, and Rockland County, New York. (I even addressed them in passable Yiddish, so I'm not sure how much more I could bend over backwards to make them feel comfortable. I imagine they assumed that I'm Jewish, and still the reception was stone-cold with one exception.)

    So I'm not a particular fan of that community and their attitude towards outsiders, to say the least, just saying that fair is fair and I wonder how many of the ultras are indeed working hard to support those big broods rather than collecting food stamps, rent subsidies, and the like. Perhaps they generally are.

  52. @Anon 2
    Re: Jersey City shooting

    I’m surprised nobody on Sailer mentioned that the mass shooting
    in Jersey City, across the Hudson River from Manhattan, was partly
    a result of turf war between the incoming Hasidic Jews from Brooklyn
    and the old established black population.

    As I always say, to understand American Jews study the Jewish life in
    Poland (or more generally in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).
    The vast majority of American Jews come from that region. Warsaw until
    1890 had the world’s largest Jewish population (then New York began
    to take over). As the Jews were typically Orthodox and Hasidic, they had
    very high birth rates. The Jewish section (unlike in W. Europe there were
    no ghettoes in Poland) was located just north and west of the central
    railroad station in Warsaw. And being close to the train station, it also
    had a number of bordellos. Warsaw is surrounded by countless small
    towns which until 1939 hosted thousands of Jews with huge families.
    Ben-Gurion was born in one of those small towns north of Warsaw.
    Feynman’s ancestors came from Minsk Mazowiecki, southeast of Warsaw.
    The Nobelist Bashevis Singer grew up in Warsaw itself, as did Mileikowski,
    Netanyahu’s father. By the way, people in Poland joke that Israel is a Polish
    colony in the Middle East because it was founded by people from Greater
    Poland.

    Paralleling what happened in Warsaw, the huge fertility rates of the Orthodox
    and Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn are forcing them to move to small towns around
    New York where the housing costs are much lower, encountering opposition
    everywhere they go. A few years ago the controversy involved the town of
    Kiryas Joel in the Newburgh region north of NYC. Now it’s Toms River, NJ,
    and Jersey City, NJ. A black woman in the video someone posted on Sailer
    is heard saying, “We didn’t have those problems until the Jews moved in.”
    As the Hasidic Jewish population is exploding in the NYC area, increasingly
    they will come in conflict with blacks, which may be very unpleasant, as
    yesterday’s shooting demonstrated.

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made
    sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated
    areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors.
    Some might even respond with violence.

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors. Some might even respond with violence.

    I’m having trouble following your reasoning. You’re saying that Jews shouldn’t take over American cities because some nig-nogs might have their feelings hurt? Really? There’s a four letter word for that, starts with a ‘c’, ends with a ‘uck’.

    Second point: ‘Orthodox Judaism’ has nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Levantine religions 2000 years ago. Judaism is a post-Christian religion and an explicit reaction to Christianity, and its ‘Orthodox’ strain is a new-age variety invented after the European so-called ‘Enlightenment’.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    Actually, it’s not just blacks. Many towns around NYC, some far away like Newburgh,
    are having problems with the exploding Hasidic populations. E.g., study the case
    of Kiryas Joel.
  53. @anonymous coward

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors. Some might even respond with violence.
     
    I'm having trouble following your reasoning. You're saying that Jews shouldn't take over American cities because some nig-nogs might have their feelings hurt? Really? There's a four letter word for that, starts with a 'c', ends with a 'uck'.

    Second point: 'Orthodox Judaism' has nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Levantine religions 2000 years ago. Judaism is a post-Christian religion and an explicit reaction to Christianity, and its 'Orthodox' strain is a new-age variety invented after the European so-called 'Enlightenment'.

    Actually, it’s not just blacks. Many towns around NYC, some far away like Newburgh,
    are having problems with the exploding Hasidic populations. E.g., study the case
    of Kiryas Joel.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    Well, good for the Hasids, then.

    Are you perchance a follower of the American oecumenical religion, the one where 'not being nice' is the only mortal sin?
  54. @Anon 2
    Actually, it’s not just blacks. Many towns around NYC, some far away like Newburgh,
    are having problems with the exploding Hasidic populations. E.g., study the case
    of Kiryas Joel.

    Well, good for the Hasids, then.

    Are you perchance a follower of the American oecumenical religion, the one where ‘not being nice’ is the only mortal sin?

  55. @Toronto Russian

    You could also make men relatively higher earners by decreasing the earnings of women or reducing their opportunities otherwise.
     
    American society did it after the end of WW2, big time.

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.com/2015/03/16/operation-june-cleaver/

    https://envisioningtheamericandream.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/wwii-women-wacs-tide-housewife.jpg

    The author is telling this from a liberal point of view, but the Midcentury posters she collects and uploads speak for themselves - just look and read the authentic ad texts if you want a neutral picture. Fast forward 15-20 years, and the children born to those women in suburban paradises... became hippies, participated in Beatles mania and Woodstock and all kinds of weird experimentation. It seems they were willing to try anything (up to becoming the most divorced generation, and questionable fashion choices that now embarrass them forever in old photographs) to avoid repeating what they saw in their childhood. Director Tim Burton was one of them and made the movie Edward Scissorhands about just how soul-crushing the suburban life could feel (the film crew painted the houses on set in unpleasant colors and made their windows smaller specially to emphasize that feeling).

    Obviously something was wrong and unsustainable there. I don't think the semi-autistic video gamers who come up with this idea now are wiser than American wartime propagandists, so if some miracle gave them power to implement it, they would probably screw up even worse.

    Interesting theory. I always thought that Edward Scissorhands represented some natural hatred that liberals in the US had for suburbs and country.

    Why the hatred? They hated them because they used to be white and relatively wealthy, and the cities were in obvious decay after the Great Migration. And a lot of these places were Republican strongholds.

    I once read some crazy opinion peace which took a kind of reverse Pol Pot view, that people should be forced to live in the city. It seemed to primarily be about taxing them and elevating blacks. I think environmental stuff is just secondary.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Edward Scissorhands represented
     
    It's a classic, very cleverly designed film - although themes are not subtle.

    Scissorhands was a disabled boy, adopted, "fixed" and hidden in a European castle (more like a 19th century Gothic Revivalist mansion) above the suburb - by an old inventor who had then died, so he is now alone, with unutilitarian aristocratic hobbies like cutting hedges into strange shapes.

    The suburb is completely flat laterally, while the castle is abandoned and frightening in an opposite dimension.

    https://anotherimg-dazedgroup.netdna-ssl.com/1572/azure/another-prod/350/0/350199.jpg

    Scissorhands tries to adapt to this suburb, but only the blonde girl recognises that they need to add this nonutilitarian dimension of Scissorhands, to their life.

    So film is constantly repeating this theme in different ways. E.g. they are adding fake snow to the roof, and with the plastic snow tree. And Scissor-hands is creating real snow outside, but the people don't notice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H880XljGv0

    And the suburb people only accept him to an extent they can convert him into something practical or utile, as the only their dimension they understand - e.g. - cutting their hair, in the BBQ making shish kebab, opening beer cans, etc. And red-hair woman is sexually interested - but doesn't recognize any unutilitarian romance. Generally, they are like bad characters in Flaubert - this script has mainly an influence of French writers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO19pVkB7Do
  56. @Dmitry

    seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan
     
    Apparently salarymen in Japan are often expected to drink for hours afterwork with their colleagues, sometimes all night - almost as part of a hazing by the corporation.

    I've heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.

    It's surprising Japan still has the highest life expectancy in the world, considering how much stress their workforce might experience.

    -

    In Tokyo, you can see salarymen trying to arrive home drunkly.

    E.g. this is probably what happens next morning if you fail to stay conscious on a journey to home
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFKiuypUleM

    My theory on the binge drinking is that it is more a trust-building exercise. To conclude a big deal, or just for the organization to bond.

    It might be partly influenced by the low crime in Japan. Maybe, they feel safer to get drunk out of their minds.

    My theory on the famous Japanese long life spans is that it has to do with other metabolic pathways. Not just their diet, but that their genes are adapted for their diet.

    But I wonder whether their drinking culture is doomed, as this info on cancer becomes more well-known. Smoking is in decline in Japan.

    I’ve heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.

    I absolutely hate this sort of thing. It often happens in America, and it is pretty egregious because a lot of people are stuck in dead-end jobs, and their boss might be a diversity hire. Better way is for each to pay his own.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    I get the impression Japanese drinking also allows participants to break the social conventions and perhaps have some realtalk. Then it can all be excused by drunkenness and some sincere reflection can, if requested, be done by the loudmouths the day after.
  57. @Dmitry

    Urban Chinese are really fascinating. It seems so bizarre that they can fall asleep in a noisy... better adapted
     
    It's because Chinese are mainly a third world people (and have ascended to industrialized proletariat only recently).

    They can still do some natural things like sleeping without laboratory conditions - e.g. Chinese workers can probably sleep on factory floor without a mattress.

    Similarly, many American pioneers in the 19th century, could pull wagons across the landscapes, fight with Indians, not eat food for days, and probably could still sleep easily outside with a rock as their pillow.

    Whereas nowadays, Americans - after a century of embourgeoisement - can unlikely sleep without air conditioning, and luxury Egyptian cotton sheets; and as in the Hans Christian Andersen, might detect a pea under a dozen mattresses.

    In Russia, there are a lot of memes (about 99% true) about tough peasant old grandmothers, who perhaps traverse frozen rivers each morning at age 85. But this is becoming a generational artifact even in such villages- their children might already be weak souls, who panic if their shoes become wet.

    When men's conditions improve, so does their sensitivity - in the end, the population of wealthy countries, might not sleep better, but simply become like princesses, puzzled that people could sleep with a pea in their bed.

    I’ve wondered if there might be some genetically-based difference in the concept of personal space between Asians and Europeans. The trouble is that there are all these confounding factors.

    I’d like to take a time machine back to observe Europeans when they often lived 12 people in a one room house. Would they be clingy in an open space? Afraid to sleep alone?

    What seems strange to me is that I have observed rural Vietnamese congregate very closely together in a very large open space, but perhaps it has something to do with standard of living, as you imply.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Man evolved in conditions of vastly smaller numbers and crowds than today.

    However, in Northern latitudes, within a group, people would always be living much more closely together than today - to be warm, because of limited shelter, etc.

    -

    Current differences in housing between countries are result of recent culture and history in different countries.

    Some even people try to attribute political differences, as a causal result of the housing differences.

    For example, Navalny believes the problem of politics of Russia, is somehow result of people living too much in small apartments close to each other. On the other hand, he believes everyone should live like Americans, in large houses, in spacious suburbs, separated by sufficient distance - and this will result in an improvement in politics, and greater responsibility in citizens. Really, someone needs to play Navalny some more anti-suburb propaganda like Edward Scissorhands.

    That is not to say, there are not objective "better" and "worse" in housing design. Bourgeois 19th century English streets are often reaching to some kind of golden mean, in my opinion (of population density, beauty, balance of communal and private life, etc).

  58. @Thulean Friend

    In our world, it would be very difficult for them to become managers or programmers, precisely because of such psychological attitudes (which are inherited culturally, but not genetically).
     
    Right, but you are mixing 9th century vikings with albanians in 2019 and thinking it is the same. It is an absurd comparison. Naturally anyone, no matter how bright, who came out in a time machine from over 1000 years ago would struggle in our hypertechnological (in historical terms) economy.

    By this I do not know why Circassians decide tests worse than the Swedes. Perhaps the cause is genetic differences. But it is also possible the difference is the cultural factor. I do not know the evidence that could decide which of the hypotheses is correct
    With the difference Europe/Africa the situation is different – there are accumulated relevant evidence.
     
    If you don't want to focus on tests, that's fine. Tests are an imperfect proxy of ability. It can never replace the real world. Look at the historical achievements of Swedes vs Circassians or albanians and adjust per capita. Which group comes out as far more cognitively capable? If you want to claim that there are cultural factors for these gigantic disparities then you'll be warmly welcomed in any bog standard western anthropological humanities seminar.

    Look at the historical achievements of Swedes vs Circassians

    There is a similar unresolved question-is this difference (in historical achievements) determined by hereditary differences between the Swedes and Circassians, or other factors?
    What would happen if in the 8th century proto-Circassians and proto-Swedes were reversed, the Circassians would be settled in Scandinavia, and the Swedes-in the North Caucasus? No one knows

  59. @songbird
    One seems to hear a lot about business-related drinking in Japan, China, and Korea, but aren't each of those populations better adapted to alcohol consumption than Northern Euros? (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    In light of HBD, maybe it is comparing apples to oranges. Maybe, these one night karaoke benders just aren't the same thing, as drinking vodka alone, on a Tuesday night.

    Well, I’m a Nordic and have had a few drinking bouts with Asians, and have found them easily defeated as a rule. Haven’t tried going up against a seasoned sararyman yet.

    (And, being Nordic, I also have two acquaintances who died probably due to drinking problems. Our evolution is not yet complete.)

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Man, I wouldn't try competing against Nordics or Russians in a drinking contest.

    During a visit to the Ukraine as a younger man, I did down the requisite shot of "horilka" (vodka) with staff and patrons at a restaurant on several occasions -- earning some respect.

    But the only one there who spoke English well enough to really communicate with me laughed and said, "Good, but in Ukraina you should not even try to out-drink the women."
    , @AP
    I was just at a birthday party in Moscow where a make guest over 90 enjoyed 6 half-shots of vodka with no noticeable effect.
  60. @Pericles
    Well, I'm a Nordic and have had a few drinking bouts with Asians, and have found them easily defeated as a rule. Haven't tried going up against a seasoned sararyman yet.

    (And, being Nordic, I also have two acquaintances who died probably due to drinking problems. Our evolution is not yet complete.)

    Man, I wouldn’t try competing against Nordics or Russians in a drinking contest.

    During a visit to the Ukraine as a younger man, I did down the requisite shot of “horilka” (vodka) with staff and patrons at a restaurant on several occasions — earning some respect.

    But the only one there who spoke English well enough to really communicate with me laughed and said, “Good, but in Ukraina you should not even try to out-drink the women.”

  61. @songbird
    Interesting theory. I always thought that Edward Scissorhands represented some natural hatred that liberals in the US had for suburbs and country.

    Why the hatred? They hated them because they used to be white and relatively wealthy, and the cities were in obvious decay after the Great Migration. And a lot of these places were Republican strongholds.

    I once read some crazy opinion peace which took a kind of reverse Pol Pot view, that people should be forced to live in the city. It seemed to primarily be about taxing them and elevating blacks. I think environmental stuff is just secondary.

    Edward Scissorhands represented

    It’s a classic, very cleverly designed film – although themes are not subtle.

    Scissorhands was a disabled boy, adopted, “fixed” and hidden in a European castle (more like a 19th century Gothic Revivalist mansion) above the suburb – by an old inventor who had then died, so he is now alone, with unutilitarian aristocratic hobbies like cutting hedges into strange shapes.

    The suburb is completely flat laterally, while the castle is abandoned and frightening in an opposite dimension.

    Scissorhands tries to adapt to this suburb, but only the blonde girl recognises that they need to add this nonutilitarian dimension of Scissorhands, to their life.

    So film is constantly repeating this theme in different ways. E.g. they are adding fake snow to the roof, and with the plastic snow tree. And Scissor-hands is creating real snow outside, but the people don’t notice.

    And the suburb people only accept him to an extent they can convert him into something practical or utile, as the only their dimension they understand – e.g. – cutting their hair, in the BBQ making shish kebab, opening beer cans, etc. And red-hair woman is sexually interested – but doesn’t recognize any unutilitarian romance. Generally, they are like bad characters in Flaubert – this script has mainly an influence of French writers.

    • Replies: @songbird

    And red-hair woman is sexually interested – but doesn’t recognize any unutilitarian romance.
     
    This perhaps explains the title of the porn satire, which I won't be so crass as to name. I have no seen it, but it was still an object of much amusement, among young men at one time - just knowing it existed.

    It was a pretty artsy movie, for something which entered mainstream culture.
  62. @songbird
    I've wondered if there might be some genetically-based difference in the concept of personal space between Asians and Europeans. The trouble is that there are all these confounding factors.

    I'd like to take a time machine back to observe Europeans when they often lived 12 people in a one room house. Would they be clingy in an open space? Afraid to sleep alone?

    What seems strange to me is that I have observed rural Vietnamese congregate very closely together in a very large open space, but perhaps it has something to do with standard of living, as you imply.

    Man evolved in conditions of vastly smaller numbers and crowds than today.

    However, in Northern latitudes, within a group, people would always be living much more closely together than today – to be warm, because of limited shelter, etc.

    Current differences in housing between countries are result of recent culture and history in different countries.

    Some even people try to attribute political differences, as a causal result of the housing differences.

    For example, Navalny believes the problem of politics of Russia, is somehow result of people living too much in small apartments close to each other. On the other hand, he believes everyone should live like Americans, in large houses, in spacious suburbs, separated by sufficient distance – and this will result in an improvement in politics, and greater responsibility in citizens. Really, someone needs to play Navalny some more anti-suburb propaganda like Edward Scissorhands.

    That is not to say, there are not objective “better” and “worse” in housing design. Bourgeois 19th century English streets are often reaching to some kind of golden mean, in my opinion (of population density, beauty, balance of communal and private life, etc).

    • Replies: @songbird
    When my family first moved out of the city, they actually moved to a "suburb" which had a higher density population than the main city itself. This extra density was due to lack of parks, but the houses were very close together. The initial attraction, I believe, was a chance to own one's own home, rather than be renters.
  63. @Anon 2
    Re: Jersey City shooting

    I’m surprised nobody on Sailer mentioned that the mass shooting
    in Jersey City, across the Hudson River from Manhattan, was partly
    a result of turf war between the incoming Hasidic Jews from Brooklyn
    and the old established black population.

    As I always say, to understand American Jews study the Jewish life in
    Poland (or more generally in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).
    The vast majority of American Jews come from that region. Warsaw until
    1890 had the world’s largest Jewish population (then New York began
    to take over). As the Jews were typically Orthodox and Hasidic, they had
    very high birth rates. The Jewish section (unlike in W. Europe there were
    no ghettoes in Poland) was located just north and west of the central
    railroad station in Warsaw. And being close to the train station, it also
    had a number of bordellos. Warsaw is surrounded by countless small
    towns which until 1939 hosted thousands of Jews with huge families.
    Ben-Gurion was born in one of those small towns north of Warsaw.
    Feynman’s ancestors came from Minsk Mazowiecki, southeast of Warsaw.
    The Nobelist Bashevis Singer grew up in Warsaw itself, as did Mileikowski,
    Netanyahu’s father. By the way, people in Poland joke that Israel is a Polish
    colony in the Middle East because it was founded by people from Greater
    Poland.

    Paralleling what happened in Warsaw, the huge fertility rates of the Orthodox
    and Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn are forcing them to move to small towns around
    New York where the housing costs are much lower, encountering opposition
    everywhere they go. A few years ago the controversy involved the town of
    Kiryas Joel in the Newburgh region north of NYC. Now it’s Toms River, NJ,
    and Jersey City, NJ. A black woman in the video someone posted on Sailer
    is heard saying, “We didn’t have those problems until the Jews moved in.”
    As the Hasidic Jewish population is exploding in the NYC area, increasingly
    they will come in conflict with blacks, which may be very unpleasant, as
    yesterday’s shooting demonstrated.

    That’s one of many reasons why Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    (but perhaps not Reformed) are outdated. “Be fruitful and multiply” made
    sense 2000 years, but having 6-7 children per family in densely populated
    areas means you’re selfish, and is not going to endear you to your neighbors.
    Some might even respond with violence.

    Doesn’t this depend, though, on whether the very fruitful ultra-Orthodox Jews are earning enough to support those large families, versus burdening the public fisc?

    Orthodox Jewish parents with seven kids whom they are able to support would not seem unreasonably “selfish” compared to their non-Jewish or non-Orthodox neighbor who has three children whom neither she nor the father(s) come close to supporting.

    Incidentally, try striking up a conversation with some ultra-Orthodox folks sometime and see what it is like not to exist. Had that charming experience when spending the day with our children in parks and playgrounds several times in Bergen County, New Jersey, and Rockland County, New York. (I even addressed them in passable Yiddish, so I’m not sure how much more I could bend over backwards to make them feel comfortable. I imagine they assumed that I’m Jewish, and still the reception was stone-cold with one exception.)

    So I’m not a particular fan of that community and their attitude towards outsiders, to say the least, just saying that fair is fair and I wonder how many of the ultras are indeed working hard to support those big broods rather than collecting food stamps, rent subsidies, and the like. Perhaps they generally are.

  64. @Dmitry

    Edward Scissorhands represented
     
    It's a classic, very cleverly designed film - although themes are not subtle.

    Scissorhands was a disabled boy, adopted, "fixed" and hidden in a European castle (more like a 19th century Gothic Revivalist mansion) above the suburb - by an old inventor who had then died, so he is now alone, with unutilitarian aristocratic hobbies like cutting hedges into strange shapes.

    The suburb is completely flat laterally, while the castle is abandoned and frightening in an opposite dimension.

    https://anotherimg-dazedgroup.netdna-ssl.com/1572/azure/another-prod/350/0/350199.jpg

    Scissorhands tries to adapt to this suburb, but only the blonde girl recognises that they need to add this nonutilitarian dimension of Scissorhands, to their life.

    So film is constantly repeating this theme in different ways. E.g. they are adding fake snow to the roof, and with the plastic snow tree. And Scissor-hands is creating real snow outside, but the people don't notice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H880XljGv0

    And the suburb people only accept him to an extent they can convert him into something practical or utile, as the only their dimension they understand - e.g. - cutting their hair, in the BBQ making shish kebab, opening beer cans, etc. And red-hair woman is sexually interested - but doesn't recognize any unutilitarian romance. Generally, they are like bad characters in Flaubert - this script has mainly an influence of French writers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO19pVkB7Do

    And red-hair woman is sexually interested – but doesn’t recognize any unutilitarian romance.

    This perhaps explains the title of the porn satire, which I won’t be so crass as to name. I have no seen it, but it was still an object of much amusement, among young men at one time – just knowing it existed.

    It was a pretty artsy movie, for something which entered mainstream culture.

  65. @Dmitry
    Man evolved in conditions of vastly smaller numbers and crowds than today.

    However, in Northern latitudes, within a group, people would always be living much more closely together than today - to be warm, because of limited shelter, etc.

    -

    Current differences in housing between countries are result of recent culture and history in different countries.

    Some even people try to attribute political differences, as a causal result of the housing differences.

    For example, Navalny believes the problem of politics of Russia, is somehow result of people living too much in small apartments close to each other. On the other hand, he believes everyone should live like Americans, in large houses, in spacious suburbs, separated by sufficient distance - and this will result in an improvement in politics, and greater responsibility in citizens. Really, someone needs to play Navalny some more anti-suburb propaganda like Edward Scissorhands.

    That is not to say, there are not objective "better" and "worse" in housing design. Bourgeois 19th century English streets are often reaching to some kind of golden mean, in my opinion (of population density, beauty, balance of communal and private life, etc).

    When my family first moved out of the city, they actually moved to a “suburb” which had a higher density population than the main city itself. This extra density was due to lack of parks, but the houses were very close together. The initial attraction, I believe, was a chance to own one’s own home, rather than be renters.

  66. @Pericles
    Well, I'm a Nordic and have had a few drinking bouts with Asians, and have found them easily defeated as a rule. Haven't tried going up against a seasoned sararyman yet.

    (And, being Nordic, I also have two acquaintances who died probably due to drinking problems. Our evolution is not yet complete.)

    I was just at a birthday party in Moscow where a make guest over 90 enjoyed 6 half-shots of vodka with no noticeable effect.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Russians seem to operate at least one level above Nordics when it comes to hard drinking.
  67. @songbird
    My theory on the binge drinking is that it is more a trust-building exercise. To conclude a big deal, or just for the organization to bond.

    It might be partly influenced by the low crime in Japan. Maybe, they feel safer to get drunk out of their minds.

    My theory on the famous Japanese long life spans is that it has to do with other metabolic pathways. Not just their diet, but that their genes are adapted for their diet.

    But I wonder whether their drinking culture is doomed, as this info on cancer becomes more well-known. Smoking is in decline in Japan.

    I’ve heard (from Japanese) they also often have to pay for their boss or for their colleagues, in expensive restaurants.
     
    I absolutely hate this sort of thing. It often happens in America, and it is pretty egregious because a lot of people are stuck in dead-end jobs, and their boss might be a diversity hire. Better way is for each to pay his own.

    I get the impression Japanese drinking also allows participants to break the social conventions and perhaps have some realtalk. Then it can all be excused by drunkenness and some sincere reflection can, if requested, be done by the loudmouths the day after.

    • Replies: @songbird
    A lot of old-timers will reminisce that there used to be a lot of alcohol involved in American business meetings. I suspect its decline might have had something to do with feminism, lawyers, or health-nazis.

    Japan seems to have a more traditional culture, but I wonder how long the business benders can survive, given what seems to be an especial cancer-risk for Asians. I mean, Japan has a fat tax.
  68. @AP
    I was just at a birthday party in Moscow where a make guest over 90 enjoyed 6 half-shots of vodka with no noticeable effect.

    Russians seem to operate at least one level above Nordics when it comes to hard drinking.

  69. @Pericles
    I get the impression Japanese drinking also allows participants to break the social conventions and perhaps have some realtalk. Then it can all be excused by drunkenness and some sincere reflection can, if requested, be done by the loudmouths the day after.

    A lot of old-timers will reminisce that there used to be a lot of alcohol involved in American business meetings. I suspect its decline might have had something to do with feminism, lawyers, or health-nazis.

    Japan seems to have a more traditional culture, but I wonder how long the business benders can survive, given what seems to be an especial cancer-risk for Asians. I mean, Japan has a fat tax.

  70. @EldnahYm
    Sure there were.

    The famine was a genocide, it wouldn’t have happened to peasants in the cotswolds and the island was probably in a food surplus. Probably more so than the Island of Britain, which then, as now, isnt. Not that it matters even if Ireland wasn’t in food deficit ( but it was) because while a country can be in food deficit, food can be imported. The biggest empire in the world didnt do that, and that was government policy.

    As for the Irish IQ – I suggest IQists, to be taken seriously, should probably attribute the recent rises in Irish IQ to a delayed Flynn effect. All other claims fall down.

    The Irish American IQ is the same as the average white IQ in US, this is explained by suggesting the smart emigrate. However that wasn’t true in Ireland. In Ireland the poor emigrated and the middle classes stayed behind, at least that was the case until the 1990s or so. It was especially the case post the famine when the poorest of the poor left Ireland. (Even if the emigration were from the smartest percentile – which it wasn’t – it should have reduced over time with the supposed ethnic regression to the mean.)

    A different claim the emigrants had more English blood also falls down. The emigrants to the US were the West, the most Irish part of Ireland.

    Northern Ireland does better than the UK in schools and the catholic ( native Irish) schools do better than protestant schools. This is dismissed as not being the real Ireland. Makes no sense. In fact of the top 10 performing schools (measured in A levels) 9 where catholic.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-alevel-league-table-for-northern-ireland-catholic-schools-dominate-top-positions-37935503.html

    And then theres the Pisa results. Not real IQ, shout the IQists but if IQ doesn’t measure school results then what is the point of it? What is it actually measuring? Ireland does above average in that ( above 100 if you map to IQ) and is up with the Asians on reading. 5th in the world in the last one.

    Easier solution – a delayed Flynn effect.

  71. @EldnahYm
    Sure there were.

    In Ireland, the “clearances” were called “plantations.” Both countries are close to being totally anglicized. Compare them to Wales which didn’t experience clearances or plantations. Wales is much more Welsh than either Ireland or Scotland is Gaelic.

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