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According to phylogenetic analyses, the oldest Indo-European common story features a Smith selling his soul to the Devil in return for power, before tricking him out of his prize.

Which, as a frand observed, later came to be known as the tale of Faust. So Europe is a Faustian civilization in the most direct sense.

 
• Category: History • Tags: Europe, Linguistics, Paper Review 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Brutiss says:

    So basically we kept all the good ones and the one we discarded keeps us from being nerds? I’ll take it.

    Interesting how 311 & 531 are also common.

    What’s the point of a christian worrying about pagan tales though?

    You should go larp as japeth.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  3. songbird says:

    I’ve always been quite fond of this type of story, so I can understand why it would be a good survivor. There’s even a passing fair American version, The Devil and Daniel Webster.

  4. AaronB says:

    Isn’t a Faustian bargain one in which you get a few good years of power and wealth in exchange for ultimately losing your soul?

    The amusing thing is, it’s supposed to be a cautionary tale, but somehow Europe took it as a tale to emulate.

    People have been describing Europe as a Faustian culture for some time now, but mostly these same people always seem surprised that the second part of the bargain is actually coming to pass.

    I blame Goethe. I believe his version of Faust was the first in which Faust actually doesn’t end up losing his soul to the devil, but God lets him go free at the last moment because his heart was in the right place – God apparently sanctioning the quest for wealth and power.

    This refashioning of the Faust myth by Goethe seems to have been taken to heart by Europeans, but it seems in real life, you can’t escape your bargain with the devil after all, and Goethe cruelly misled those who took him seriously.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @whahae
  5. Jack and the beanstalk at the root of the tree too. Hm. Not a moral tale. I was never quite sure of Jack.

  6. In other words, the Smith shows a low time preference. He reasoned out his deal with the devil in advance so that he could renege on it later.

  7. Anon 2 says:

    A New York Times columnist claims that the Korean movie “Parasite”
    represents a crisis of faith in capitalism because of its depiction of how
    extreme inequality corrodes human hearts.

    No, extreme inequality is due to the fact that, as science tells us,
    we are merely primates, “smart chimps,” i.e., we are tribal, aggressive,
    lustful, territorial, and status seeking, and so we ruin everything we
    touch. We ruin capitalism, we ruin communism, and everything else
    in between. Now, I also believe that we have a divine spark, and
    that the “ better angels of human nature” will dominate eventually,
    but that may not happen for hundreds or even thousands of years.
    Evolution of consciousness proceeds at a glacial pace. But for some
    people, like the market dominant groups in the U.S. (Jews, Chinese,
    East Indians, Wasps, etc), the social climbing instinct is so powerful
    that they become enslaved by their “smart chimp” nature, and
    nothing else matters. They steal the best jobs and places at Harvard,
    Yale, etc, and everybody else suffers as a result. Instead they could
    devote their lives to the pursuit of holiness/enlightenment and everybody
    would gain as a result. But no – they are literally possessed by their
    egos (and as A Course in Miracles tells us the ego is the devil) – which tell
    them that maximizing their net worth is the only worthwhile goal
    in life. And the Earth suffers as a result.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    , @anonymous coward
  8. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    To finish my thought: And as the number of Asians in the U.S., currently
    at 20 million, continues to grow exponentially, one can predict that the
    hostility toward the market-dominant groups (esp. Jews, Chinese, and
    East Indians) will continue to grow because they are seen as the
    primary embodiment of extreme inequality in the United States.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  9. @AaronB

    Obviously the tale of Faust is a tragic version of the original and more optimistic tale about the smith tricking the evil creature out of his prize. I mean, you only had to read the post to find it out.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AaronB
    , @Dmitry
  10. whahae says:
    @AaronB

    And changing heavens’s judgement of Gretchen for murdering her child from “Sie ist gerichtet” to “Sie ist gerettet” directly lead to Roe v. Wade. And a line can be traced from Werther’s influence to today’s suicide epidemic in the Midwest. Or maybe not.

  11. melanf says:
    @reiner Tor

    Obviously the tale of Faust is a tragic version of the original and more optimistic tale about the smith tricking the evil creature out of his prize.

    As far as I know in the original legend about Faust, Faust ended up in hell (in Goethe’s poem, Faust, for unknown reasons, ends up in heaven, being a complete scum).
    Legends about the supernatural abilities of blacksmiths, as well as about tricksters who fraudulently obtained forbidden knowledge from the gods/demons, exist in various parts of the world – this is never a special sign of Indo-Europeans

  12. @Whahae

    Suicide in the USA is entirely a western phenomenon. The midwest has some of the lowest rates.

    Suicide rate map usa:

    The foreboding presence of mountains and trees (and the evil they represent) appear to be the biggest drivers of suicide.

  13. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    Ah, so maybe the Faust tale was a reworking of an older tale where the devil really does get cheated out of your soul. So maybe Goethe sort of restored the original in a way.

    Thanks for correcting me.

  14. melanf says:

    It is curious that in Russia there is an analogue of the legend of Faust, about count James Bruce (one of Peter the Great’s confidants).

    According to legend, Bruce used magic to try to create the most beautiful beauty on earth, but at the last moment his work was disrupted by a jealous wife. In the end Bruce disappointed in humanity built a flying ship and flew to heaven

    Here is the house of count Bruce

    The house is decorated with strange masks-it is believed that these are demons that Bruce subdued and forced to serve

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  15. melanf says:

    the oldest Indo-European common story features a Smith selling his soul to the Devil in return for power, before tricking him out of his prize. Which, as a frand observed, later came to be known as the tale of Faust.

    This is not the story of Faust.
    This is quite obvious “THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS ” by Nikolai Gogol – a fantastic story about a blacksmith who sold his soul to the devil, but managed to cheat evil demon and come out victorious

    https://graycity.net/nikolai-gogol/page,1,41779-the_night_before_christmas.html

  16. @Anon 2

    …as science tells us…

    Whenever you see this marker, you know an elephant-sized load of bullshit is incoming.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  17. Znzn says:

    OT Copypastad from Intelligent Dassein but basically true about the cuckery of the altright here

    HBD is ridiculous. Is that candid enough for everyone?

    If you want to talk about race, then by God just talk about race. Don’t dress it up in a bunch of biological poppycock that makes you sound like a spergy, drawer-sniffing fetishist. Everyone already knows that people come in different races; they don’t dispute the fact, but they rightfully regard all HBD-talk as a wimpy attempt to smuggle in some kind of supremicism by people who lack the balls to actually act superior. All partisan appeals to data always come off like this. It’s like having your mom call in sick to work for you.

    If history is any guide, the first replies to my comment will take the form of brief, tongue-clucking rejoineders asking how it is possible to talk about race without mentioning biology, which just goes to show that the whole subject hasn’t been understood in the least. Race is not “biological.” It is either an integral property of one’s existence or it is a mere word; there is no middle path. A race-realist must be committed to the former idea, but HBDers do not want to face its metaphysical implications (or indeed any other metaphysical implications), so they bring in biology as a sort of stalking horse, forcing it to do the work that they do not want to do; work which, moreover, it is entirely unsuited for.

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  18. neutral says:

    Interesting that Celts are closer to the Romans than the German people.

    • Replies: @Daniel.I
  19. Quite bizarre that paper does not include (as far as I can see) two of the most enduring tales in human history: 1) the warrior that chooses glory over death (The Iliad); and 2) the prodigal son returns (The Odyssey).

  20. Daniel.I says:
    @neutral

    Italic and Celtic only separated after the arrival of the Etruscs in the Italian peninsula.

    As for Germanic, it’s kinda hard to place it in the Indo-European family tree.
    A plausible hypothesis is that’s a creole betweeen proto-Celtic and proto-Baltic.

  21. @songbird

    “I’ve always been quite fond of this type of story, so I can understand why it would be a good survivor.”

    Agree but that may be reversing cause and effect. We may like that story because it is—and we are—survivors of hundreds of generations of Indo-European culture.

  22. melanf says:
    @Agathoklis

    Quite bizarre that paper does not include (as far as I can see) two of the most enduring tales in human history: 1) the warrior that chooses glory over death (The Iliad); and 2) the prodigal son returns (The Odyssey).

    I’ll be a bit of a bore: in illyad, Achilles chooses between revenge for a friend and life (he knows that by taking revenge, he brings his own death closer). The plot in the Odyssey is known as ” a Husband at his own wife’s wedding”

    In General, the plots of many myths have an incredible antiquity. Two clusters of myths are known – one (of African origin) is more than 60,000 years old (!), another cluster (North-Eurasian) is more than 14,000 years old.

    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/blog/2012/08/21/comparative-mythology-and-the-study-of-modern-human-origins/

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  23. @Agathoklis

    In the case of Achilles It’s more like Warrior chooses early death but eternal glory over safe but forgotten life
    Although even this summary is not perfect, since theres a wider context to his decision

    My mother Thetis tells me that there are two ways in which I may meet my end . If I stay here and fight, I shall lose my safe homecoming but I will have a glory that is unwilting: whereas if I go home my glory will die, but it will be a long time before the outcome of death shall take me.

  24. @Brutiss

    What’s the point of Christianity incorporating pagan rituals, doctrines, and traditions? But it did that, indisputably.

    What’s the point of sacrificing a goat, I mean Jesus, as a lightning rod for the punishment we deserve for our sins?

    Claiming that Christianity is utterly distinct from paganism is historically untenable.

    I can’t vouch for anything else this fellow writes, but this column makes the point:
    https://biblesabbath.org/tss/515/truth.html

  25. @Anon 2

    There may be that many just in the San Gabriel valley 😉

  26. So Europe is a Faustian civilization in the most direct sense.

    Oswald Spengler would agree:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West#Spengler’s_Cultures

    • Replies: @Sean
  27. Brutiss says:
    @RadicalCenter

    I’m an Indo Iranian making fun of Euros.

    Christcuckery doesn’t enter the equation except as a nerd religion that nerd euros adopted. Tyvm,

  28. @Agathoklis

    the prodigal son returns (The Odyssey).

    I can’t see what was prodigal about Odysseus. The general motif there was more like “return of the wanderer,” or more simply “homecoming.”

  29. @JohnPlywood

    The foreboding presence of mountains and trees (and the evil they represent) 

    This is why I keep coming back to unz, I genuinely NEVER know what the hell I’ll be reading.

    What kind of perverse urbanite culture sees trees and mountains as evil? Obviously wilderness can be dangerous, but metaphysically evil? That’s astounding.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  30. @RadicalCenter

    Brainless quibling, by that standard no religion/ideology/anything can ever be “utterly distinct” (whatever the hell that means). Literally identical logic in denying that there are “distinct” races, but even dumber.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  31. @Brutiss

    “Christcuckery”, well your indo-iranian pea brain has obviously already been colonized by the most irredeemable losers and dorks among euros (internet atheists larping as pagans).

    But tell us more about the great nobility of the indigenous pagan gods meant to explain rain LOL. As if you actually believe in them.

    • Replies: @Brutiss
  32. @songbird

    And The Devil Went Down to Georgia.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @AP
  33. @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    All human beings alive (including such primitives as Australian aboriginals) descend from obsessive deforesting people who seemingly hated trees. Many groups went to great lengths to live in areas with no trees, such as the North American aboriginals or people who live on treeless plains. Entire forests in Europe and Asia are missing today thanks to the stone age axe.

    The massive sea of green is an evil sight to witness and actual wild forests are impenetrable obstacles where only squirrels live. Mountains are dreadfully ugly things to look at and we must destroy them and pick out the bits and pieces of material that are useful to us.

    This is not urbanite logic, but the primary objective of human existence.

    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
  34. Anon 2 says:

    Interesting fact: Poland has such a shortage of employees that growing numbers
    of Germans now work and live in Poland – about 26,000 (comparable to the
    number of Russians working in Poland). There are even cases of German
    teenage girls who get temporary summer jobs in western Poland, because
    Poland, unlike Germany, has the reputation of being safe.

    One Englishman moved to Poland at 25, and he is making documentary
    movies there. He says he had no problem learning Polish

    • Replies: @melanf
  35. @anonymous coward

    In contrast to “as the Bible teaches us…”?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  36. @songbird

    The devil has won, though.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @songbird
  37. @JohnPlywood

    Powerful take for the Imperial Hive World.

  38. melanf says:
    @Anon 2

    Poland, unlike Germany, has the reputation of being safe.

    Germany unsafe? Hmmmmm.

    There are clearly a lot of poles in Vienna (I definitely spoke to a few, although I was in Vienna as a tourist for a few days) so the migration of Germans to Poland in search of work causes me doubts

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Anon 2
  39. @JohnPlywood

    Realistically, though, the close association with civilization and the destruction of forests have little to do with any specific hate of trees; forests were a source of nutrition and resources. However, the demand for fuel – and it was pretty much wood, inevitably meant the destruction of forests even when efforts were made to limit tree cutting.

    It is probably true that we are the descendants of people who have loved urbanization more than we loved living in nature as nomadic, but I highly doubt on any rational level that individually actually hated the forest.

    Same goes for rocky surfaces, which were unarable and at a time when food stress was common, beyond their practicality as defensive measures, they were obviously not popular for the same reasons that starvation and poverty weren’t popular.

    Now that food stress, etc are less of a thing, then it is quite a different thing.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  40. Sean says:
    @Digital Samizdat

    Which, as a frand observed

    Typo.The smiths in ancient legends tend to be crippled. Konstantin Leontiev would be relevant, he was also remarkable prescient not least when he predicted Germany, France, Italy and Spain becoming regions of a new state (and also something that sounds to me like the AIpocalypse).

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/dont-believe-trumps-economic-hype-are-we-ready-accept-two-percent-growth-121656

    Without much faster productivity growth, even a Two Percent Economy will be tough to achieve consistently. That demographic reality is also part of the slow-growth thesis put forward in Fully Grown: Why a Stagnant Economy Is a Sign of Success by University of Houston economist Dietrich Vollrath. As summed by John Cassidy in The New Yorker:

    As countries like the United States have become richer and richer, Vollrath points out, their inhabitants have chosen to spend less time at work and to have smaller families—the result of higher wages and the advent of contraceptive pills. G.D.P. growth slows when the growth of the labor force declines. But this isn’t any sort of failure, in Vollrath’s view: it reflects “the advance of women’s rights and economic success.

    Vorath thinks even more advanced AI will not alter the trend for more to be spent on services rather than products because AI will make productive capacity much more efficient and its products cheaper. The economists’ answer is ‘high skill immigration’, but the two thirds of the decline in growth that are according to Vollrath’ due to reduced labour inputs (demographic transition) would need mass replacement-and-then-some levels of immigration.

    I think Spengler was right, societies are like individuals that must reach maturity and what comes after. Immigration is like eating lots of protein and intensive weight training, great when you are young, but after reaching maturity the growth program (mTor) becomes deleterious. If there is a parallel then less is more and Western societies are past the point where they can import people; it would be greasing the skids to senescence. Autophagy is what we need.

    As Andreas Wagner pointed out in his book last year natural selection never chooses the worse over the better, it’s drift and other things that are not necessarily onward and upward that provide the basis for successful developments.

    • Replies: @Brutiss
  41. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Probably adopting as your civilizational myth tales about making deals with the devil in exchange for power in the hope of cheating him in the end, is a risky proposition at best.

    I suppose it could have all turned out well in the end.

    Another interesting myth in this vein is Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, and Western civilization is also often described as Promethean.

    But in the myth of Prometheus, it also ends in disaster.

    And then there is the biblical story of the garden of Eden.

    While similar, all three tales take opposing points of view morally. The biblical tale sees the quest for inordinate power and knowledge as the cause of mans fall from a state of supreme happiness and bliss. This is the typical spiritual point of view, and is the same attitude as taken in Taoism and Buddhism, etc.

    The Greek myth is essentially anti-spiritual, and posits man as boldly defying the cruel Gods in the quest for material advancement, which is taken as man’s noblest task in typical Greek fashion and in contradiction to the spiritual point if view.

    Goethe also wrote a play on Prometheus as well as Faust, in which he portrays Prometheus as a noble and magnificent figure advancing mans material advancement and power.

    The Faust myth portrays the quest for power and knowledge as at least innocent if not good, but as requiring risky deals with malign forces that may turn disastrous unless exceptional cunning and luck saves the day. This seems to me as an advance on the Promethean myth and more insightful and prescient.

    Chinese civilization was based on the Taoist and Confucian sensibility which is much closer to the biblical myth of the fall from a state of bliss being occasioned by a desire for inordinate power, knowledge, and material advancement.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  42. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The hero of these stories generally appears like an underdog, but he had an advantage in that he only had to trick one being.

    Good luck, trying to, for instance, get all the pozzed hordes to reach into the magic sack at once, give them the push, and set the magic hammer on them, until they agree that poz and cuckery are morally wrong.

  43. Denis says:
    @melanf

    Many Eastern European countries are now safer than several western European countries. Karlin made a post about it recently:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/visegrad-med-now-safer-than-core-europe/

    This is primarily due to the insane immigration policies pursued by Germany, France, and the UK.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Dmitry
    , @Anon 2
  44. @silviosilver

    The difference is that no real person actually says that, not even the evangelicucks.

    When the Bible is referenced, the reference comes with an actual name and person attached: “St. Paul teaches us”, “John”, “Peter”, etc.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Pericles
  45. melanf says:
    @Denis

    Many Eastern European countries are now safer than several western European countries.

    Both countries are quite safe. For someone to move from one country to another for the sake of existing small differences in the number of murders per 100,000 is absolutely incredible.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  46. @AaronB

    Chinese civilization was based on the Taoist and Confucian sensibility

    Yeah, no. Taoism and Confucianism are secular ideologies that came many centuries after Chinese religiosity turned stale and rotten.

    You’re in the same position now here in the West, and are in the process of formulating your own taoisms and confucianisms.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  47. @melanf

    Yes. That was my first mistake since the late 1990s.

  48. AaronB says:
    @anonymous coward

    Well, in China, real metaphysical religion was supplied by mahayana Buddhism, but Taoism came remarkably close.

    The basic principle of these systems is to not cultivate desire and ego, fame and wealth, power and knowledge – that pursuing these things leads to misery and are chimeras and illusions.

    As of yet, I do not see the West developing anything resembling such an attitude to life – at best, I see despair and loss of purpose at the death of the old value system of ever increasing power, and confusion as to what to do now. As well as desperate attempts to rehabilitate the old values based on power.

    So we’re certainly not at the stage of developing a Taoist attitude to life. To be honest, such ideas can never be mainstream and must always be somewhat counter-cultural. But a good culture is one where these ideas have some level of influence and legitimacy. Even Taoism in China was in some sense counter-cultural with regards to Confucianism, and more often the preserve of the elite. But Taoism always had some influence over the mainstream, even though most people as always are driven by ego, wealth, and power.

    So religion can never really be mainstream and is always somewhat counter-cultural, and is mainly the domain of a small elite while exerting a beneficial influence on the mainstream and moderating its obsession with wealth and power.

    • Agree: Tusk
  49. Not too convincing. True, Faustian means something in European cultural context; but, it would be quite a stretch to somehow derive this tale from Indo-European Smith/Devil motif.

    A vaguely remember that Faust was, historically, a popular extension of the figure of Simon Magus in the New Testament (St. Peter got him). Shakespeare’s Prospero was basically a Faustian figure.

    And blacksmiths have always been imagologically connected with supernatural powers, one should consult Mircea Eliade’s “The Forge and the Crucible”. You can find smiths, powers, supernatural figures & pacts with various demonic figures also in Mesopotamia & China.

  50. @AaronB

    Well, in China, real metaphysical religion was supplied by mahayana Buddhism, but Taoism came remarkably close.

    Yeah, it was so close that the Chinese emperors did everything they could at one point to suppress Mahayana Buddhism as a foreign influence. Mahayana Buddhism, which incidentally was so about not pursuing power and knowledge that they had an actual “Inexhaustible Treasury” and was ever accumulating more wealth, land, and slaves until Emperor Xuanzong liquidated the monastery at Chang’an.

    But Taoism always had some influence over the mainstream, even though most people as always are driven by ego, wealth, and power.

    Confucianism(which isn’t the same as Taoism) was probably a much more significant influence and while it had a significant moderating influence on the individual, it really did not discourage the accumulation of wealth or power as a family – and indeed, due to the importance of familial clans, was one of the reasons for its spread and acceptance. It certainly shifted some of it toward scholarship, but that scholarship was closely associated with status, wealth and power through appointment to imperial offices.

    Taoism itself isn’t very functional for a mass religion for a civilization, depending on its interpretation, it is either primitivist anti-civilization idealism or the underpinnings of mystical animism.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  51. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Right, Taoism is essentially anti-civilization. It cannot become mainstream or the basis of a civilization. But civilizations tend to become overly complex and repressive, and a healthy civilization needs to be reminded of the virtues of simplicity and freedom periodically.

    Too much civilization – too much complexity and repression – becomes unbearable without outlets where people can let loose and be free.

    Confucianism without Taoism would be unbearable. But Taoism can’t replace Confucianism as the basis of a civilization. Confucianism also can’t be the basis for the creative arts, for that you need the freedom from constraint provided by Taoism.

    There is also a significant portion of the population that is uninterested in the civilizational project of acquiring wealth and power and want to opt out. If such people are not given an outlet, they typically become restless and troublesome. A healthy civilization can easily defuse such a ticking time bomb by legitimizing an outlet.

    Some Mahayana Buddhist texts read almost as Taoist texts, and the Chinese described Buddhism as Western Taoism when they first encountered. But it tends to have a more elaborate metaphysics and to place more emphasis on striving and accomplishment.

    Buddhism did sometimes degenerate into wealthy and powerful monasteries that were rivals to political power, like the Church, and in order to liberate the original message these institutions had to be destroyed. Obviously that’s not why they were destroyed, but its probably good that they were at that time. But that was one not very long period in Buddhist history in China.

    Interestingly, your own favourite Legalist school enjoyed a brief reign – it was so repressive and unpopular, that it was soon overthrown and replaced by a court where reading Lao Tzu was heavily promoted for officials.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  52. Dmitry says:

    frand observed, later came to be known as the tale of Faust.

    This is not the story of Faust – just there is superficially similarity of using the popular narrative machinery of “pact with devil” which is used in many different stories.

    The Promethean myth of a man who can trick the gods for knowledge, is also common in many cultures, including African and Native American ones – it is not specific to Europe.

    Faust is not this myth, anymore than Faust is the myth of Aladdin.

    Faust is a very specifically Early-Modern Christian myth, before a threat of science – in which man is a corrupted by promises of false knowledge and vanity.

    If you want to understand Faust, you have to know texts like Thomas à Kempis.

    For Thomas à Kempis,knowledge and studying is viewed as a form of vanity. Obsession with knowledge can be like someone who obsessed about fashionable clothes or jewelry to impress their friends.

    This was a kind of reinvention of Socrates distinction between the Sophists and philosophers – however, the role of philosophy was replaced with humble modestly in religious instruction.

    For 21st century people, this seems quite strange, because we have an Enlightenment view, in which we feel like studying and knowledge is morally good.

    However, mythology around Faust would have seemed just a ordinary, mainstream view, in its time.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  53. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    It is less curious than you believe. Graf Yákov Vílimovich Brius (aka James Bruce) was indeed a remarkable personage. He was indeed a descendant of Robert THE Bruce. His father William (a Jacobite refugee in Russia in 1647) served in the Russian Army. Yakov, although born in Russia, was extremely proud of his Scottish royal ancestry and certainly a ‘member’ of that elusive ‘Jacobite Free-Masonry’, the ‘Scottish Rite’, as his mentor in the Foreign Office, the no less famous Scott Patrick Gordon. He was one of the most erudite men of his time and the sheer scale of his interests and contribution to the grand scheme of reforms undertaken in Russia during the reign of Peter the Great are breathtaking.
    It was Pushkin who likened Bruce to a ‘Russian Faust.’ This image was perpetuated in the Russian literature by Ivan Lazhechnikov’s novel Koldun na Sukharevoi Bashne (The Sorcerer at the Sukharev Tower), published in 1840.
    He was made a member of the Order of Saint Andrew, founded by Peter. It is probably not a coincidence that Russians and Scotts claim as their patron saint Saint Andrew, the First Called.

    • Replies: @melanf
  54. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    No, it is the opposite.

    Faust was originally a negative moral story, about a man who had been corrupted by vanity and knowledge.

    Goethe uses this as a rough set, for a crazy poem, which celebrates the man who has lust, romance, vanity, knowledge, etc.

    Goethe’s Faust openly includes also Greek myths, and even also copies for its hero Muslim style mythology, like the Night Journey of Muhammad for the ending.

    By Goethe’s time,the old moralistic story of Faust is not making sense, and Goethe is writing more a spirit of rebellion against moralism of the epoch which had created Faust, and still had a suspicion to knowledge which was similar to Thomas à Kempis.

  55. Dmitry says:
    @Denis

    ?

    All Western European countries that I can think of are extremely safe, by any historical or international standards. (Perhaps if you are from Japan, then Europe will seem “dangerous” for you – but this is like saying “Switzerland seems economically poor to someone from Monaco”).

    • Replies: @Denis
  56. Anon 2 says:
    @melanf

    Re: Germans working in Poland

    I read this in an official report. Many Germans are, of course, executives
    and IT people employed by multinational companies. Poland now has
    a ton of multinationals. That’s one reason why Warsaw and other cities
    can’t seem to stop building skyscrapers to accommodate all those banking,
    EU, NATO, and real estate offices. Poland has also greatly benefitted
    from Brexit: many finance and accounting firms moved from Britain
    to Poland. Because about 800,000 Polonians still live in Britain,
    Poland and Britain are in the process of restoring the close relationship
    they had in the 1500s when Poland was a major exporter of wheat, and
    Polish ships plied the route from Poland to London, bringing not only
    wheat but also merchants and sailors. That’s why to this day there is
    Poland Street in London. Captain John Smith (of Pocahontas fame) came
    to Poland to seek skilled settlers before sailing to America in 1607, and
    landing in Virginia.

    • Replies: @melanf
  57. Dmitry says:

    No, original Faust were just a moral stories about a man supposedly corrupted by knowledge/vanity.

    Narrative machinery about a “deal with the devil”, were common in that time, and Faust stories just used it as a way to frame its moral message – the message of the story is an illustration of Matthew 16:26 (one of the most famous quotes of Jesus to his disciples), although with a specific focus on knowledge as a form of vanity.

    Goethe’s Faust is something completely different, and it’s not about any single mythology, but his whole view of art, genius, society and whatever the voices in his mind were saying when he wrote it. Mephistopheles is not really a negative character, but even sometimes giving speeches of Goethe’s views of society or politics.

    I’m surprised that everyone here has not read both parts of Goethe’s Faust, to the extent the second one was not too crazy, weird and dreamlike for them to finish.

  58. Anon 2 says:
    @Denis

    Yes, and as I mentioned a number of times in this blog, Poland
    has much lower rates of social dysfunction than Western Europe,
    and the news of that fact is now spreading around Europe. For
    example, ever since Frau Merkel invited over a million Muslims
    to come to Germany in 2015, young German girls get constantly
    harassed (and worse) by Muslim guys. Poland has no Muslims
    except for the Lipka Tatars in the northeast but they’ve lived in
    Poland for many centuries, and are totally assimilated. So for
    a German girl looking for a summer job western Poland may look
    like a more pleasant option than her native Germany.

    By the way, Germans are also moving to Hungary, some to retire.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  59. Denis says:
    @Dmitry

    All I said was that some eastern European countries are now apparently safer than certain Western European countries, at least if the homicide rate can be taken as a proxy for safety. AK has posted the stats in that article I linked.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  60. Brutiss says:
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    We worship the Sword while your daughter beds a different man each week. 🤷‍♀️

    Church is pacifist cuck gay shit, don’t act like it ain’t lol..

    • Replies: @Pericles
  61. Brutiss says:
    @Sean

    So is getting fucked by niggers like nucleus overload training, Mr. Christcuck?

    • Replies: @Sean
  62. @Daniel Chieh

    It’s not civilization, though. Primitive neolithic farmers and hunter gatherers obsessively deforested with axes/celts and fire, thousands of years before a civilization ever existed. The nomadic people specifically deforested entire regions in Europe and Asia to get more pastureland for their animals.

  63. @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Okay, Christianity is substantially borrowed from paganism. Better?

  64. Brutiss says:

    Svarog will lead you to Svarag (heaven)

    Why worry about christian faust (former) fat Karlin?

  65. Sean says:
    @Brutiss

    Spengler was right inasmuch the modern ethical and practical substitutes for religion are inferior. The days when women were chaste and slept with only one man their entire lives are gone. Those two facts are not unrelated.

    Weight training is one of the most dangerous activities around, most people try it and get hurt and many intelligent girls end up feeling used and think their black boyfriends did not treat them right. As for blacks the evidence of their conspicuous virility in the seduction of numerous young white women leaves the working class helpless in the real world, which is why people like you feel the need to be powerful in your online persona.

  66. Not Raul says:

    Why no Greek, Armenian, or Albanian stories? These IE groups aren’t shown on the chart.

  67. Not Raul says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Native Americans have a high suicide rate.

  68. melanf says:
    @Anon 2

    Re: Germans working in Poland
    I read this in an official report.

    Certainly. But the Germans (as well as the poles) also work in Russia, and the numbers are of the same order:
    http://bigrussia.org/post/read/29 data for 2015

    about 500,000 specialists come to Russia from Western Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. …. Many from Eastern Europe, especially from Poland: about 50 thousand in Moscow and St. Petersburg

    .”

    But we cannot say that, in General, is the migration from Germany to Russia (really migration goes in the opposite direction)

  69. @Dmitry

    For 21st century people, this seems quite strange, because we have an Enlightenment view, in which we feel like studying and knowledge is morally good.

    Eh? You’re two or three centuries out of date.

    Read “Jack Faust” by Michael Swanwick, very much a 21st century book with a 21st century vantage point.

  70. @silviosilver

    It does. Actual Christians (not (((media))) caricatures) always cite, at the very least, a book and verse number with their claims.

    Hell, even inbred Muslims have the intellectual decency to reference a source from which you can deduce your own chain of trust.

    Somehow it is only (((objective))) science that deals with pre-packaged brain-stopping absolutes.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  71. Pericles says:
    @AaronB

    The basic principle of these systems is to not cultivate desire and ego, fame and wealth, power and knowledge – that pursuing these things leads to misery and are chimeras and illusions.

    As of yet, I do not see the West developing anything resembling such an attitude to life – at best, I see despair and loss of purpose at the death of the old value system of ever increasing power, and confusion as to what to do now. As well as desperate attempts to rehabilitate the old values based on power.

    You obviously have little familiarity with Christianity and its reminders from Jesus and onwards that riches won’t get you into Heaven. But the current atheist-judaist paradigm is of course not much like that.

    Verses from a popular song from 1948 with a rocky translation.

    Du kan ingenting ta med dig dit du går,
    nej, du kan ingenting ta med dig dit du går.
    Du behöver inga penningar när du vid porten står
    för du kan ingenting ta med dig dit du går.

    There’s nothing you can bring with you where you go
    No, there’s nothing you can bring with you where you go
    You don’t need money when you’re standing at the Pearly Gates
    So there’s nothing you can bring with you where you go

    Du kanske är en rikeman som samlar i en penningpung,
    fast den förut är stinn och tung, du gnider och går an.
    Din kassakista är din Gud, men så en afton får du bud…
    och alla dina slantar små, vad hjälper de dig då?

    You may be a rich man who’s gathering in his purse
    even though it’s fat and heavy, you’re working busily
    Your treasure chest is your God, but then one evening you have to go …
    and all your little coins, what do they help you then?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AaronB
  72. Pericles says:
    @anonymous coward

    Meanwhile, the Science fuck yeah crowd usually go with “studies show”. Which studies would that be? OMG, you fascist boohoo get him banned from globohomo.

  73. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    …The basic principle of these systems is to not cultivate desire and ego, fame and wealth, power and knowledge – pursuing these things leads to misery.

    Not pursuing them can also lead to misery, so it is a wash.

    The six you named are each very different: knowledge is essential, even if it leads to misery. It is still a better state than the reverse. In almost all cases power is simply an attribute of wealth, unavoidable. Our desires are hard to define, we can’t for sure know who desires what above certain basic level. Most discussions about inner desires and true motives are silly speculations, but they can be entertaining. I have no idea what an ‘ego‘ is, with all due respect it is basically a placeholder term that means whatever any person wants it to mean.

    That leaves wealth, and what is wealth? Stripped to its basis, wealth is what we manage to consume during our life, the good stuff, the pleasant stuff, the ‘assets’ that we get to use. Life is simply better with more wealth, that’s a truism. It cannot lead to misery because misery is simply an absence of wealth – that’s the way most humans throughout the ages would understand it. Redefining it is a bit post-modern, in other words it is embracing the absurd.

    My problem with Taoism and similar ideas (there are plenty native to the West, e.g. some forms of Christianity) is not that they are ‘too deep’ and hard to live, but that they are actually very shallow. An escapist kind of shallow that combines lazy thinking with a touch of infantilism.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @AaronB
  74. Pericles says:
    @Brutiss

    Yeah, go polish your ‘Sword’ some more, buddy.

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
  75. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    …riches won’t get you into Heaven

    What does that even mean? How to you define Heaven, riches, and ‘getting in’? I am not unsympathetic, and sugary placebos have their place in some lives, but that sentiment is very incoherent.

    When researching what people mean by ‘Heaven’ you get a picture of a place, often garden-like, with good weather, good looking people, eternal youth, no wants or diseases, and a calm, unstressed existence. And a boss who is not mean (‘God’). Well, it roughly describes what an average oligarch can achieve in a few remote Riviera spots or Caribbean. It is a dull fantasy, an escapist nonsense.

    The truth is that riches on earth can create a semblance of what we describe as ‘Heaven’. In some cases the riches don’t have to be too extreme. Saying that you can’t take it with you is neither here nor there, presumably you can’t take anything else with you either, and where would you be taking it? It is just poetic nonsense.

    The problem we have is that we have thousands of years of accumulated ‘wisdom’, ideas and analogies that were not particularly true when originally created and they are no more relevant today. A whole mental world occupied by false analogies, metaphors, pleasing sayings, quotes, etc… Not much of it actually makes a lot of sense when examined, but we are reluctant to let it go. Something in our existence is scared of truly fresh thinking so we lean on half-baked and often misunderstood old narratives.

    My point is that ‘riches won’t get you to Heaven‘ is just a silly nonsense saying. It is harmless, but totally unusable. You might as well say that ‘what is dead can never die‘. Or that sun will rise tomorrow.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  76. @Znzn

    “HBD is ridiculous. Is that candid enough for everyone?”

    Really? This sounds quite important, with major implications for the UKs National Health Service. IIRC something like 20% of the budget goes on diabetes care.

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/18225253.bradford-highest-number-people-type-2-diabetes-uk/

    New analysis released today shows that Bradford City has the highest number of people diagnosed with type 2 diabetes in Yorkshire and England as a whole.

    Diabetes UK revealed 10.81 per cent of Bradfordians – equalling more than 12,000 people – are diagnosed with diabetes with the national average standing at 6.9 per cent.

    While not every case of type 2 diabetes is associated with excessive weight, it is responsible for 80 to 85 per cent of someone’s risk of developing the condition.

    Age, family history, and ethnicity can also contribute to someone’s risk, with people of African-Caribbean, Black African or South Asian descent two to four times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than white people.

    The lowest incidence in the UK is in Richmond, Surrey at 3.6%, not only white and wealthy but the sort of place where people are jogging at 6.20 am before they go to work.

  77. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    What does that even mean? How to you define Heaven, riches, and ‘getting in’? I am not unsympathetic, and sugary placebos have their place in some lives, but that sentiment is very incoherent.

    On the contrary, it’s very straightforward. Material possessions are not relevant for getting into Heaven and may indeed even be a hindrance.

    The truth is that riches on earth can create a semblance of what we describe as ‘Heaven’. In some cases the riches don’t have to be too extreme. Saying that you can’t take it with you is neither here nor there, presumably you can’t take anything else with you either, and where would you be taking it? It is just poetic nonsense.

    I assume you’re a materialist and, in the name of logic and consequence, a nihilist?

    But to explain: All you can take with you when you die is yourself, a good man of Christian virtue. I mean, this isn’t really cultural rocket science, is it?

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    , @Beckow
  78. @Pericles

    So you’re saying heaven in Christianity is basically like Wikipedia, right?

    • Replies: @Pericles
  79. Pericles says:
    @JohnPlywood

    So you’re saying heaven in Christianity is basically like Wikipedia, right?

    There are some differences. For example, you’re not required to be a SJW pedophile in Heaven.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  80. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    I am not particularly materialistic, and I am definitely not a nihilist, most modern problems stem from nihilism. Nihilism is a chaotic misunderstanding of life, it is a suicide for cowards.

    The reason I object to the pleasing saying that ‘material possessions are not relevant for getting to heaven‘ is that it really doesn’t mean anything. And the small part that can be analyzed actually suggests the opposite is true: that material well-being is a big part of Heaven as most people understand it.

    You are right that it’s not rocket science, but the part of rocket science that deals with math and logic says that it is also not a true statement. We can all do pleasant verbal pirouettes, but can we do math?

    • Replies: @Pericles
  81. @Beckow

    My problem with Taoism and similar ideas (there are plenty native to the West, e.g. some forms of Christianity) is not that they are ‘too deep’ and hard to live, but that they are actually very shallow. An escapist kind of shallow that combines lazy thinking with a touch of infantilism.

    I agree. They’re just one big cope. Getting what you want can be hard and disappointment sucks, so best to not even try. I find that attitude wholly unappealing.

    Then again, there is much in our society that promises “you can have it all,” with the result that many people defer contentment in life until the big payoff, which often never comes. So in these cases it’s a useful reminder that happiness is possible with what you already have – even if that’s comparatively little.

  82. @anonymous coward

    It does. Actual Christians (not (((media))) caricatures) always cite, at the very least, a book and verse number with their claims.

    And what follows is often mind-numbing bullshit, which was my point.

    You have be seriously delusional to claim that the Sciencefuckyeah crowd tell greater whoppers than Christcucks. (The latter, of course, is nothing but one big whopper.)

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  83. @Pericles

    This is a picture of the refrigerator inventory of Jeffrey Dahmer, a baptized and repentant Christian at the time of his death:

    White nationalists say they do not want to share the same continent with African people.
    Are you prepared to spend an eternity in Heaven with a human soul that placed African genitals in his home refrigerator?

  84. Pericles says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Let’s see when and if I should meet him.

  85. @silviosilver

    You have be seriously delusional to claim that the Sciencefuckyeah crowd tell greater whoppers than Christcucks. (The latter, of course, is nothing but one big whopper.)

    Life is not a popularity contest.

    Like I said: even the dumbest, most inbred Muslims have the intellectual decency to cite sources and let you make your own inferences on trust and validity.

    Meanwhile, for people like you “intellectual discourse” means shouting louder and insulting harder. (Of which your post is case in point, of course.)

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  86. @JohnPlywood

    …and repentant…

    Repentance means making amends, not feeling sorry.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  87. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    I am not particularly materialistic, and I am definitely not a nihilist, most modern problems stem from nihilism. Nihilism is a chaotic misunderstanding of life, it is a suicide for cowards.

    Perhaps the first question is really whether you are an atheist? If so, presumably you consider materialism to be valid, that is, no supernatural stuff, natural stuff only. If so, would you say there any any objective values or morals and wherefrom do they then spring?

    The reason I object to the pleasing saying that ‘material possessions are not relevant for getting to heaven‘ is that it really doesn’t mean anything.

    Seems fine to me to use the obvious meaning.

    Anyway, to return to the original point — regardless of whether you find it incoherent, it seems evident that there is such a strain of thought in Christianity. Not very hidden or esoteric either, I’d say.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  88. @anonymous coward

    re·pent·ance
    /rəˈpentəns/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: repentance; plural noun: repentances
    the action of repenting; sincere regret or remorse.
    “each person who turns to God in genuine repentance and faith will be saved”

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  89. @JohnPlywood

    Regardless of the dictionary definition, I would say that anon coward’s definition is truer to what would be accepted as genuine. This goes into several different philosophical veins, but no true repentance wouldn’t be accompanied by an effort to make amends.

    If in Platonic idealism we find the notion of the form thought as the first and most idealized form, then though the impetus toward regret is purely mental and in itself in thought, nonetheless in essence it will find expression through behavior in the same way that will becomes reality.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  90. @AaronB

    Interestingly, your own favourite Legalist school enjoyed a brief reign – it was so repressive and unpopular, that it was soon overthrown and replaced by a court where reading Lao Tzu was heavily promoted for officials.

    I’m fond of Legalism, but I’m not an enthusiastic supporter of Legalism – that’s Duke, which you have confused me with. Legalism has a generally accurate view of affairs but it lacks the ability to be stable because its spirit ultimately encourages strife. A variation of it would be Japanese militarism during the Sengoku period, which was mindbendingly effective for its purpose(actually achieving close to 100% male mobilization on a practical level); the same policies would lead to the ill-fated Imjin War and general instability until it was essentially replaced with a more peaceful philosophy and alternate status ladders during the Tokugawa era.

    For its part, legalism created the Qin state, and thus China, so its hard to say that it was a failure as a whole. Once unified, the Han court would encourage Confucianism in order to prevent further rebellions. Ambition-suppressing philosophies are great for civilizations looking to stay stable, as well as despots looking end the natural ambitions of their victims. It has its uses, as well as its misuses.

    That you often seem to preach to people to essentially “accept death” is obviously seen with some degree of suspicion.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  91. @silviosilver

    Actually, in a way, it does. Scientific studies can be quite nonsensical and occasionally completely fabricated(the priming effect studies by Daniel Kahneman, for example). By providing source, you provide meaningful context and open it to appropriate debate.

  92. @Daniel Chieh

    The apostle Paul said “by the deeds of the law there shall NO FLESH be justified in his sight” (Rom. 3:20) therefore “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Rom. 3:28, Gal. 3:11). These verses clearly say the criteria for fellowshipping with God in Heaven is faith, not keeping the law and being good (which no one can do perfectly).

    Romans 11:32 says “God has concluded all in unbelief, that He might have mercy on all,” and “all have sinned, even come short of the glory of God” (Rom.3:23). If we weren’t all guilty of sin, Jesus could not have sacrificed Himself to forgive us all. His death on the cross guarantees that anyone who commits any sin, past present or future, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, as long as they recognized that Christ died for their sins.

  93. @JohnPlywood

    I’m quite familiar with the notion of salvation by faith, not by deeds. Nonetheless, only God knows the truth of said faith, and those saved by God’s grace shall exhibit the good works as an emanation of his faith and fealty toward God. Belief by itself doesn’t mean much – even demons believe, but in genuine repentance there is faith and submission, and therein lies the potential for genuine grace and charity, through which actions are evidence of.

    James 2:17-20

    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    • Agree: Denis, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Bliss
  94. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    There is nothing wrong with trying to accumulate wealth, power, and fame. That is really what most people want, or think they want.

    But there is a tension between civilization – needed for the creation if wealth, luxury, etc – and freedom. Civilization can get very complex and suppress your freedom and personality. This can create widespread unhappiness and neuroses.

    Frued’s theories are mostly nonsense as we know, but he was right that civilization can create neuroses and widespread unhappiness. And 19th century Vienna and Europe in general, for all its undoubted beauty, wealth, and goodness, had reached a peak of repression that was unbearable. There were so many rules to follow and so many things you couldn’t think of and weren’t allowed to feel.

    And so many people in America are unhappy today because everything is so controlled – so many things you aren’t allowed to think or do or feel. So we are seeing again an explosion of neuroses.

    So periodically mankind has these revolutions that sweep away all this repressive complexity and rules that make us unhappy by not letting us follow our true nature. Jesus was obviously about getting rid of the harshly repressive Judaism of his time, with its increasingly complex rules and things you could it couldn’t think, feel, or do, and return us to a natural, simple way of living in accord with our natures.

    China and Japan also tended to develop these incredibly complex and repressive civilizations, and it was natural that Taoism and Zen were developed to counter this. They aren’t necessary outside of these contexts.

    Taoism, Buddhism, etc, have this belief that mans “original inborn nature” is perfect just as it is, and its society and civilization that twist it and repress. This is obviously similar to Rousseau and the Romantics in the West.

    But ultimately the point is not to demolish civilization, just prevent it from getting too unfree and repressive, which it has a tendency of doing. And in Taoism and Zen, the ultimate point is to live in society but having an inner freedom – live according to its rules, but not take it too seriously or be too attached to it. Not defy it or destroy it, but not get too heavy and serious about it, not take it too seriously. That’s a kind of freedom. Live in society and follow its rules but kind of laugh at it too and see its absurdity.

    Civilizations that lose touch with these kinds of messages get too repressive and unfree and create too much unhappiness and anomie, and then set the stage for a new message of liberation to sweep everything away.

    That is what we are waiting for, with bated breath, today.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  95. AaronB says:
    @Pericles

    Thank you for reminding me.

    Jesus was definitely one of the great counter-cultural figures of the West, and his message is similar to Taoism.

    Jewish civilization during his time was becoming incredibly complex and harshly repressive, it had strayed very far from the simplicity and freedom of the bible, and Jesus came onto the scene to remind we don’t need all this wealth and status, these rules and regulations, to be happy.

    Obviously there is a “spiritual” aspect to this as well. Just as too much attachment to social rules restricts our freedom and nature and makes us unhappy, too much attachment to physical realities makes us unfree and unhappy. Taking the world too seriously, not being able to laugh at it, outs us in bondage and makes us unfree.

    Obviously the physical world is important, death and pain and are real and wealth and comfort are important, but to become too attached to them, to take them too seriously, is a kind of bondage and slavery, and ultimately make a us unhappy and free.

    And while the Jewish world of the time was repressive in terms of complex social rules, the Roman world fell into the trap of taking physical realities far too seriously, and created a different kind of bondage and unfreedom for people. Everyone on the ancient world was gloomy, over-serious, and unhappy, Jew and Roman alike.

    So Jesus swept all that aside and reminded freed people from taking the social world or the physic world too seriously. He came to liberate, like the Buddha.

    Of course, after centuries, the world he founded forgot his message and fell once again into taking the social and physical world too seriously.

    That’s why these revolutions are periodically always necessary.

    Oh, and the last thing that humans tend to take too seriously and become unfree and unhappy as a result, and periodically need to be liberated from is – themselves.

  96. Dmitry says:
    @Denis

    The article is showing about the low homicide rate of Central European countries and Mediterranean countries like Poland, Spain and Czech Republic.

    And the article is saying something about tourist preferences of Russians – which didn’t really match, especially as the homicide rates are low all over.

    There’s not much differences of homicide rates in EU members (except a few EU members like Hungary and Latvia where the murder rate is twice as high). Europe is just very safe by international standards (and even more by historical standards).

    Here is a comparison table of homicide rates where you can compare to the world:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

  97. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Its certainly true that extreme hierarchical authoritarianism can be very effective in the short term – history is full of examples.

    But history is equally clear that it is ineffective in the medium to long term. First, because it makes people unhappy by repressing them. Second, because it sacrifices certain kinds of efficiencies that are crucial in the long run – people will not be creative or innovate for fear of challenging the hierarchy and the status quo, people will not report mistakes, incompetence, and negligence for fear of challenging the hierarchy, and people will not be motivated to achieve outstanding excellence both for fear of upsetting the status quo and for fear of challenging the hierarchy.

    That being said, it can be useful as a transitional phase in certain historical circumstances. I often write here against the current Chinese regime, but to be honest, I’m prepared to accept that this may be necessary and beneficial for China at this point in time.

    Ambition-suppressing philosophies are great for civilizations looking to stay stable, as well as despots looking end the natural ambitions of their victims. It has its uses, as well as its misuses.

    That you often seem to preach to people to essentially “accept death” is obviously seen with some degree of suspicion.

    First, I don’t suggest a defeatist acceptance of death. I advocate a victorious liberation from the fear of death that cramps so much of our activities and weighs us down with gloom. Freedom from fear of death makes you revel in your life.

    The Samurai – the elite – took so eagerly to Zen because it helped them face death in battle without fear.

    But I agree with your point that such philosophies can be promoted by individuals – elites – for selfish reasons. But I see this as the possible basis for cooperation between elites and everyone else. Lets face it, there will always be people whose primary concern is wealth and power. The most talented people of this type will become the elites.

    But most average people will be happier and more contented with ambition suppressing philosophies. So elites and commoners can both satisfy their personalities. Elites will privately laugh at the people who at uninterested in wealth and power, and those people will be happy not caring.

    And a healthy civilization not wracked by constant revolution depends on the various types of people coming into some sort of mutually beneficial pact. Those who want power and wealth – go get it. Just let those who want to live simple lives do their thing.

    That being said, acceptance of death and suppression of ambition can also be dangerous from the elites point of view. A fearless person with no personal ambition can become a serious challenge to the power structure, as history has shown. A person fearless of death and with no ambition may also be far harder to control and corrupt.

    So its not so simple – and today, elites seem to have concluded that a philosophy that promotes acceptance of death and lack of personal ambition poses a serious threat to the elites position, and such philososhies are not promoted in the mainstream – instead, ambitious consumerism and extreme death anxiety are what’s promoted, probably because they contribute to the ability of the rich to amass fortunes and fear make the population pliable and easy to control and corrupt.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  98. @melanf

    What is not incredible is that normal people do not enjoy being constantly glared at, panhandled, propositioned if they’re women, and having to avoid going out alone at night because of a large and growing number of foreign men with bad intentions and a track record of raping and harassing women and girls.

    Murder is not the only crime that creates fear and ruins the safe, peaceful, respectful atmosphere that characterized Germany when I visited in the 80s and 90s, and thereafter.

    We socialize with and speak with German immigrants to the USA, some recent immigrants, almost very week of the year, as our kids attend a German class on the weekends from a very young age. We have acquaintances in Germany and know both a German and a German-American (fluent in German, one German native parent) who have moved permanently to Poland instead of Germany.

    Rape and theft are substantially up in Germany and not subsiding. Then there are the millions of minor insults, threats, glares, instances of following women looking for the chance to rape them, that don’t even get reported. And if they are reported, the police typically do nothing and make sure that the race and origin of the threatening men are never publicized.

    Wake up and smell the coffee, because Germany is no longer quite western civilization and is headed further down the rathole with each passing year. The fact that the transformation isn’t happening in a single year, and that you can meet many, many people who have not YET been attacked or directly menaced or robbed by these aliens, doesn’t mean that things aren’t somewhat bad and getting steadily worse. They are.

    Our assessment is so bleak that we are no longer sure about my lifelong dream of giving our kids the option of attending university in Germany. We haven’t ruled it out, and we will both seek anecdotal reports, follow statistics on reported crimes, and visit numerous times over the years to see and feel for ourselves what Germany and Austria are becoming. But the news is not encouraging unless you stick your head in the sand.

    • Replies: @AP
  99. @JohnPlywood

    Which part of the New Testament requires, encourages, condones, or tolerates what Dahmer did?

    Crickets.

  100. @JohnPlywood

    If so, that is a sick and unjust concept.

  101. melanf says:
    @Seraphim

    It is less curious than you believe. Graf Yákov Vílimovich Brius (aka James Bruce) was indeed a remarkable personage. …It was Pushkin who likened Bruce to a ‘Russian Faust.’

    There is Yakov Bruce, a historical figure, and there is Yakov Bruce, a hero of folk legends, a sorcerer who learned the secrets of the world, but failed in an attempt to artificially create the most beautiful of girls. Pushkin called the hero of the legend “Russian Faust”, not a historical character. But the curious difference is that Faust in the German legend goes to hell, but Bruce in the Russian legend flies away on a flying ship from earth to heaven.

  102. @anonymous coward

    The issue was never “intellectual decency.” (But nice try.)

  103. The white/European race lacks a global ruling class in comparison to various other races. Jews, high caste Indians, elite East Asians, etc, are a global ruling class that are influential and have business interests almost everywhere in the world. The closest equivalent to this that the white race has ever had is probably WASPs/colonial British elite but that was many decades ago, centuries even. The WASPs/British elites have lost most of their influence now.

    Whites today are almost exclusively a prole race, a high IQ prole race, but a prole race nonetheless. Whites are always getting ordered around or lorded over by high IQ non-whites, traditionally by Jews but now increasingly by high caste Indians and East Asians.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Seraphim
  104. Seraphim says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Saint Paul tells us that one is no longer justified by ‘the deeds of the Jewish Law’.

    “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law ” (Rom. 3:20-31).
    It is the New Law instituted by the Christ and one is justified by doing the ‘deeds’ of this New Law: doing what the Christ commanded (Baptism , Eucharistic sacrifice, observation of things that He commanded to do, like charity, self control, prayer).

    “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup” (1 Cor. 11:23-28).

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and announce the Good News to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen” (Mark 16:15-20).

    “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19-20).

  105. Dmitry says:
    @Europe Europa

    white/European race lacks a global ruling class… high caste Indian

    I’m sure it will change in the end of the 21st century as India will hopefully become a rich and developed country, but today in 2020, India is still poorer than Ukraine – which is the poorest country of Europe in per capita terms. There is also terrible brain drain of educated people from India, including by American originated companies.

    are a global ruling

    It’s perhaps a sad fact in different ways about both Russian and India – but Russia is producing more rich people than India, despite nine times smaller population.

    And you can see various symptoms: for example, if you look customers of luxury products like expensive English schools, – for example, English yellow press is mainly complaining about Russians, Chinese and Nigerians.

    Then came the Russians who, with Nigerians, are now the fastest-growing population in British private schools. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/five-star-schools/

    Also although the total size of the luxury market in India surpassed the size of the luxury market in Russia 3 years ago – this is in a country of nine times larger population. Until 2017, more luxury products were sold in Russia than India. (And of course the profits of luxury goods sales mainly go to European companies).

  106. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    freedom from fear of death makes you revel in your life.

    One of the largest categories of people “free from fear of death”, are precisely those who do not enjoy their life: i.e. people who kill themselves.

    If you revel to something, then you usually won’t want to lose it. Someone who revels to their life, will often not be the first person to volunteer to lose that thing, and vice-versa: people who don’t enjoy something, consequently might not worry so much about losing that thing.

    On the other hand, it’s true that if are old and you had a lot of enjoyable, interesting, or at least meaningful experiences, then you might die with a kind of satisfaction, satiation, or least without the “anxiety of missing a good party” (this is the view of Viktor Frankl).

    • Replies: @AaronB
  107. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    That’s the strange paradox – you can’t truly enjoy life unless you’re prepared to lose it. The more you cling to it, the less enjoyable it is. All spiritual traditions attest to this, and I have found it true.

    But we must each discover this reality, this truth, in our own good time.

    So if you are in a place of clinging to life, go for it.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Dmitry
  108. Seraphim says:
    @Europe Europa

    The ‘white/European’ “race” lacks a ‘global ruling class’ because it was busy for some centuries to exterminate it. The WASP ‘elite’ played a substantial role in the ‘genocide of (true) European competing elites’.

  109. Bliss says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    That is so vain and boastful of thee. Anyone who does good works to shew off, seeketh a worldly reward, a mere trifle. Besides, non-christians do good works too and there are many more of them. What does that shew thee of their faith?

    And it is worth pointing out, as Martin Luther did, that since your faith is in the doctrine that all your sins are atoned for by the blood sacrifice of Jesus then it matters not a whit whether you do good works or bad. You will still go to heaven.

    On the other hand, since almost all your ancestors did not have faith in this atoning sacrifice, they will burn in Hell for all eternity, all their good deeds can not save them from that punishment.

    It actually makes sense to you that a Loving God could be so insanely cruel and unjust?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  110. @AaronB

    That’s the strange paradox – you can’t truly enjoy life unless you’re prepared to lose it.

    That seems more like baseless bullshit than a paradox. How do you even determine whether someone is “prepared” to lose his life or whether he’s “clinging” to it? Perhaps all you meant is that some people are accepting of the idea that misfortune could strike them down at any moment, while other people try hard to deny or ignore this. Whether the former “truly” enjoy life to an appreciably greater degree than the latter is open to question, since there are so many other factors that affect happiness besides one’s attitude toward death.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  111. AaronB says:
    @silviosilver

    I mean you don’t care so much if you live or die. You enjoy life, but if told tomorrow you must die, you’re ok with it.

    It’s a fearless attitude – life becomes very enjoyable if you think this way. It also makes you less focused on the things needed for survival, like wealth and power, and more able to appreciate the good things in life.

    But since my last few comments about not taking life too seriously or caring about civilization too much has been meant with a deafening – and no doubt scandalized – silence by the serious materialists here, I do not think this will be a popular view around these parts.

    After all this is partly a life-extension blog 🙂

  112. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    I am not an atheist and I think morals are intrinsic in human existence. How exactly we have acquired moral framework could be a long discussion, suffice to say, we have it.

    “Supernatural” has different meanings to different people, so again, it is not something that I would characterise in a binary way, as yes or no.

    Christianity has a strain of asceticism, as do most religions. My point is that the expression that often summarises this asceticism “material possessions…get to heaven” doesn’t stand up to an objective analysis. If you can explain to me what it means and not simply declare it a truism or ‘obvious’, I am willing to reconsider. Because I can easily imagine material possession and heaven coinciding, and as I pointed out for most of mankind’s history the idea of ‘heaven’ would largely overlap with material well-being. At the minimum they are not mutually opposite. I am not aware of a materially impoverished idea of heaven. A bit of an oxymoron.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  113. @Bliss

    The mercy of God is great, but it is also mysterious and little experienced by communists and egoistic contrarians.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  114. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    There is a tension between civilisation and chaos. Some of what you describe as ‘freedom’ can come across as nothing more than embracing chaos. Sure in a completely unstructured environment one can experience a sense of total freedom, but we came from that and a civilisation emerged over time for a reason.

    I am not a big fan of rules, but the rules and customs that we so often object to and feel constrained by were created over the last 10,000+ years by the smartest among our ancestors. To throw them out on a whim is pretty dumb.

    I also find the temptation to denounce material life unreal, the ascetic, simplifying movements are built on a quicksand of ennui and are not sustainable. What they in effect do is distract from a more rational division of material life – and historically they have often served that role. I like to look at the material well-being directly – what you have, what I have, and how do we make it work. It was exactly the kind of ‘anti-materialistic’ escapism that has allowed for an absurd accumulation of wealth – from Jesus to hippies it is usually the main consequence.

    To say to Bezos: ‘you won’t go to Heaven’, or ‘at least you won’t be able to take it with you’ is the ultimate defeatism. I prefer to use simple math and resolve it rationally and in the present.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Daniel Chieh
  115. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    Sure, but I think civilization needs a periodic ‘reset’.

    It starts off with a good balance between order and chaos, and gradually becomes oppressive and stifling.

    Then these revolutionary Jesus or Buddha type figures appear – Buddha was also about sweeping away the complex rules of Hinduism.

    Beyond that, we need a good balance between freedom and spontaneity in our personal lives.

    As for materialism, of course we need equitable distribution of material goods. But we also need to be reminded material goods are not so important beyond a certain level.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  116. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    My point is that the expression that often summarises this asceticism “material possessions…get to heaven” doesn’t stand up to an objective analysis. If you can explain to me what it means and not simply declare it a truism or ‘obvious’

    It’s s metaphor.

    Focusing too much on material goods will prevent you from achieving that state of happiness every human craves. Taking physical things too seriously will put you in a psychological state of bondage, and prevent the arising of a psychological state of bliss.

    ‘Heaven’ is an indefinable state of bliss or happiness.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  117. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    …‘Heaven’ is an indefinable state of bliss or happiness

    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. That is not the usual definition of heaven, but I will take it. I still don’t get why having material goods would make reaching that ‘Heaven’ less likely. By any standard, it would be more likely.

    There is the ‘too much‘ part that I think is an escape clause in most questionable statements – who could disagree that too much of anything would be bad for reaching a state of bliss. But too much in lacking material goods would do the same, probably faster.

    Metaphors are fine, it is an escapist poetry. But when these metaphors are used to guide the unwashed, or serve as a substitute for rational decision making, you are being manipulated. Any idea of bliss, heaven or just good life will by necessity be based on material well-being. Telling people that’s not the case borders on deception. I will stay with my idea of ‘Heaven’ and I will also decide what is ‘too much’.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Bliss
  118. @AaronB

    As for materialism, of course we need equitable distribution of material goods. But we also need to be reminded material goods are not so important beyond a certain level.

    I keep reminding you of that, but you haven’t sent any of your material goods to Karlin at all.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  119. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    Metaphors are fine, it is an escapist poetry. But when these metaphors are used to guide the unwashed, or serve as a substitute for rational decision making, you are being manipulated

    Yes, if it is a substitute for rational decision making, you are probably being manipulated.

    Sure, a component of happiness is having your basic physical needs met. But crave too much beyond that, and you may be making yourself unhappy.

    There may be a certain bliss is not being overly concerned with physical goods beyond our basic needs, and with not being interested in self-aggrandizement. There may be a certan blissful freedom in that.

    Its not something that can be proved rigorously, but must be put to the test of experience by those who are interested. Certainly there are countless historic examples of those who found it worked for them.

    But this is certainly not true for everyone, and no one should force their preferences on others. There must be room for those who want to get rich, and room for those who don’t want to be part of a consumer driven culture of ambition.

    Much of the language used here is poetic and should be interpreted that way.

  120. @Beckow

    I don’t have much sympathy for Aaron’s rambles(which he has self-confessed have no real meaning), but I did read an excellent post which I think does bear some light on this:

    https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/02/atheism-historys-greatest-theft.html

    Meaning—in the sense of significance and purpose—is probably the greatest asset any human being can possess. Psychotherapist Victor Frankl, who practiced and led groups while detained in a concentration camp during World War II, asserted that the will-to-meaning is the most dominant human drive, in contrast to Nietzsche’s will-to-power and Freud’s will-to-pleasure.

    And in that, I think there’s something to be said that there are those from whence the various different motives can influence what provides satisfaction. For myself, I do agree that the will to meaning is perhaps my strongest motive, with power has a close second and pleasure as a very distant third.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  121. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Why do you assume I have any surplus left to give to Karlin?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  122. @AaronB

    Clearly you have a means of posting. Wouldn’t you want to be happier and be divested from such a task?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  123. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    You think he wants the crappy device I’m posting from?

    Besides, I’m not sure posting on Unz shouldn’t be considered a basic need.

    • Replies: @Brutiss
  124. Brutiss says:
    @AaronB

    It’s ok the Jews on Karlin’s blog are in a state of balance.

    You live as a peaceful pseudo hermit
    Dmitry steals Jordans from noggers.

    Violence & Materialism in perfect balance.

    The Swedes too, Thulean & Thorfinn.

    Even look at the Russian Sophistication & Intelligence vs the Border Land Blydlo.

    Felix & Karlin vs Ap & Mr Hack LOL.

    Belief in rule of law turns you gay btw.

  125. Bliss says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The mercy of God is great

    Eternal torture in Hell is the height of mercy? Lol. You speak like a brainwashed zombie, thoughtlessly regurgitating illogical absurdities. If you were capable of thinking morally and rationally you would realize that it is instead the epitome of Orwellian Doublethink.

    it is also mysterious

    How do you reconcile mystery with the infallibility of your dogmas and doctrines? How then do you justify your certainties such as “Outside the Church there is no Salvation”?

    little experienced by communists

    So much contempt for communist China. But what does that have to do with me?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  126. Bliss says:
    @Beckow

    Any idea of bliss, heaven or just good life will by necessity be based on material well-being.

    We think like that because we are so attached to the world of matter-energy, in particular our bodies, that it blinds us to our non-material core reality which is pure consciousness.

    You can’t deny that you are conscious can you? Nor can you deny that consciousness cannot be observed. Which means it is supernatural/spiritual. What is primary: our material bodies or our spiritual awareness?

    Materialism/Atheism is the ultimate ignorance. The cure for this ignorance is detachment from body-identification.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  127. Seraphim says:
    @Bliss

    God is not only merciful, but just also.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  128. @Bliss

    You can’t deny that you are conscious can you? Nor can you deny that consciousness cannot be observed. Which means it is supernatural/spiritual. What is primary: our material bodies or our spiritual awareness

    Obviously material bodies; as once the body shuts down the illusion of consciousness shuts down also.

    Materialism/Atheism is the ultimate ignorance. The cure for this ignorance is detachment from body-identification

    Coming from a racial segregationist, that’s rich.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Bliss
  129. songbird says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Coming from a racial segregationist, that’s rich.

    I believe the position of Bliss is black supremacy through multiculturalism, and sportsball mania, accompanied by Afrocentric revision of history, rather than segregation.

    But I invite any addendum or correction.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  130. Bliss says:
    @songbird

    I believe the position of Bliss is black supremacy

    Don’t project your stupid racial supremacism onto me, nazi. Haven’t you guys brought enough death, destruction and dehumanization to the world already?

    Trust a godless nazi jerk with the one-track mind to bring race into a debate about religion and spirituality. Sick.

    Btw, fake aryan, does it blow a fuse in your confused brain whenever it is pointed out that Jesus was jewish?

    • Replies: @songbird
  131. Bliss says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Obviously material bodies; as once the body shuts down the illusion of consciousness shuts down also.

    Lol at your retardedness. How the hell could any permutation of objective, observable, measurable matter ever create consciousness which is subjective, non-observable, supernatural?

    Why is it so hard for you atheist-materialist fools to understand that it is an impossibility, the ultimate category error? Not just a “hard problem” that scientists admit they have been unable to solve so far.

    It takes a completely twisted ass-backward imbecile to call consciousness an illusion of unconscious matter. Consciousness is a pre-requisite to illusion. How the hell could an unconscious entity have an illusion? Are you nuts?

    Therefore consciousness, not matter, is the primary entity.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @utu
    , @JohnPlywood
  132. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    People who don’t enjoy their life, are the largest category of people who do not fear death (i.e. people who kill themselves).

    It’s quite clear that a large part of the “fear of death” is a result of being someone who enjoys their life.*

    This is also why in my opinion, dying from a long and painful cancer – at least at the moment of death – is probably less scary than dying from e.g. a plane crash or quick heart attack. By the time death from such a painful illness comes, you might quite welcome dying, and without any fear.

    * While, according to your theory, “fear of death” is what prevents enjoyment of life. If this is true, then surely depressed people who want to kill themselves should be enjoying themselves more than we do (in which case, they would not kill themselves).

    If your theory is true, there should be a dynamic, where depressed people who want to kill themselves, lose the fear of death, and then realize that life is good as a result and decide not to kill themselves.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  133. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Yes, people who find life no longer worth living because of depression or extreme pain do sometimes lose their fear of death. Not necessarily, though. Many of them still fear death and attempt suicide multiple times until they succeed.

    If your theory is true, there should be a dynamic, where depressed people who want to kill themselves, lose the fear of death, and then realize that life is good as a result and decide not to kill themselves

    There is an extensive literature on people who almost die, and have no choice but to accept their fate, and have a conversion experience as a result, where life gains a new beauty and wonder.

    Montaigne is a famous such example. And Henry James Varieties of Religious Experience contains a lot of cases.

  134. songbird says:
    @Bliss

    Thanks! I appreciate the complement. In the context, “nazi” is used today, I feel like you are saying I have a sensible immigration policy. But I am confused by the juxtaposition of “fake aryan.” Are you trying to say I am a fake Indian? I don’t think it is a word commonly used by Euros these days, though I am sure you can find exceptions.

    Don’t project your stupid racial supremacism onto me

    I’m just trying to find out your geopolitical view. On this blog, it is poor form to pretend you don’t pretend you don’t have one.

    whenever it is pointed out that Jesus was jewish?

    Why should I care? He was a Jew living in the Middle East. Primarily in Israel.

  135. utu says:
    @Bliss

    Form C.S. Lewis

    “Granted that Reason is prior to matter, I can understand men should come to know a lot about the universe they live in. If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology and for “scientific cosmology” we might read “Darwinism” as world view then not only can I not fit in religion, but I cannot even fit science…

    If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thoughts of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.” – C.S. Lewis

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  136. @utu

    ????

    If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thoughts of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.” – C.S. Lewis

    They don’t.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  137. @Bliss

    Lol at your retardedness. How the hell could any permutation of objective, observable, measurable matter ever create consciousness which is subjective, non-observable, supernatural?

    Medical consciousness is objective and observable. It’s what you depend on to come up with your BS metaphysical consciousness.

    It takes a completely twisted ass-backward imbecile to call consciousness an illusion of unconscious matter. Consciousness is a pre-requisite to illusion. How the hell could an unconscious entity have an illusion? Are you nuts?

    Actually, I should have said “delusion”. An illusion is a thing (such as a picture) whereas a delusion is a sensory error.

    Unconscuous things can be deluded. A.I. for example are tricked by optical illusions:

    https://blog.frontiersin.org/2018/04/26/artificial-intelligence-tricked-by-optical-illusion-just-like-humans/

    What you have is the delusion of metaphysical consciousness.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  138. Beckow says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    …Meaning—in the sense of significance and purpose—is probably the greatest asset any human being can possess.

    Perhaps, and maybe that’s why we come to an open discussion blog. But trying to generalise from some to all, and from today to always, is a very tricky thing. Most people, most of the time don’t particularly care for meaning or even for power. They usually care for material well-being and occasional pleasure. To extrapolate from how some of us are and make it into a general principle is incorrect.

    My objection to the ‘money won’t get you to heaven‘ or ‘you can’t take it with you’ was on rational and aesthetic grounds. The material world is fun, I like, I enjoy it. For most people I know there is a very tight correlation between material well-being and the idea of being ‘in heaven’. So why denigrate it? Occasionally all of us go ascetic, but to put it above other choices, well, to me it seems very presumptuous. And wrong on its face.

    I wouldn’t be too harsh on Aaron, I genuinely enjoy some of his writing. We don’t have to agree – I find consent quite empty and seeking it is a strange pre-occupation of underdeveloped quasi-autistic minds. There are different ways to truthfully describe same reality, none of them are binding.

  139. AaronB says:
    @JohnPlywood

    I think what Lewis is trying to say is, if brains evolved in a Darwinian manner, then we have no reason to believe anything our brains tell us – so within a Darwinian world, we cannot establish the truth of science or even Darwinism itself.

    It is an unanswerable criticism of Darwinism that has until recently been ignored, but now some evolutionary thinkers are beginning to develop the implications of our minds not having evolved to detect reality.

  140. Anon 2 says:

    Interesting fact: Berlin has a high murder rate, in fact one of the highest murder
    rates among European capitals

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  141. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    Contrary to someone here who claimed that Western Europe is perfectly safe,
    Berlin is now descending into a maelstrom of violence. Rival drug gangs, no doubt.
    Just like the daily explosions and countless rapes in Sweden. Isn’t diversity
    wonderful?

    Same for the Asian grooming gangs in Britain, and countless other examples
    of tranquility and social harmony in Western Europe.

    • Replies: @songbird
  142. songbird says:
    @Anon 2

    I’ve said it before, but I think murder is a pretty weak measure of racial conflict, outside of war and places like Zimbabwe and South Africa, where whites are a small minority. And, if we are honest, it is really racial conflict that we should be trying to measure, not net murders.

    If Arabs in Europe went on a general killing spree of Europeans at this time, they know what would happen to them. They wouldn’t be deported. They’d all be killed. I’m not even trying to imply that most are that bloody-minded, but it is nevertheless a fact, which they grasp, so you would not expect a geometric progression of murder.

    And how many of those murders are Africans killing other Africans, etc? Probably most, at least in some cases. Even when considering racial acts of violence, it is probably better to go down the pyramid, at least to rape. It might not be so attractive to off a white guy as it is to rape a white woman. (and heck, most white guys would probably avoid the places where it would be the most convenient to off them) Even if you consider things like mugging – the government does the mugging for you. But it cannot do the rape, though it may act complicit.

    But I really think one of the best measures would be, would you send your kid to public school in the neighborhood? If not, that is a gigantic and growing loss. Also, what is the net transfer of wealth? (which comes from government-mugging)

  143. Bliss says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Medical consciousness is objective and observable.

    Repeating a falsehood a million times will not make it any truer. If consciousness was observable (which is an absurdity: google solipsism) neuroscientists wouldn’t call it the “hard problem” that remains to be solved. The brain is material, objective and observable. Observing the brain and it’s functions is not observing consciousness.

    But since you believe that consciousness is observable, tell us what it looks like. 😁

    Actually, I should have said “delusion”. An illusion is a thing (such as a picture) whereas a delusion is a sensory error.

    Illusion is not a “thing”, neither is delusion. They are experiences. The ultimate illusion is the material world we experience through our material brains via our material senses. And the ultimate delusion is our conviction that we are our material bodies.

    Unconscuous things can be deluded. A.I. for example are tricked by optical illusions

    An unconscious entity cannot be tricked or deluded. How the hell can you be tricked if you are not even aware of anything at all?

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  144. @Bliss

    Repeating a falsehood a million times will not make it any truer. If consciousness was observable (which is an absurdity: google solipsism) neuroscientists wouldn’t call it the “hard problem” that remains to be solved. The brain is material, objective and observable. Observing the brain and it’s functions is not observing consciousness.

    The whole “hard conscuousness problem” thing is bullshit and has been debunked a thousand times. Only a minority of (clearly effeminate homosexual Christian) neuroscientists ever claimed it was real.

    Illusion is not a “thing”, neither is delusion. They are experiences. The ultimate illusion is the material world we experience through our material brains via our material senses. And the ultimate delusion is our conviction that we are our material bodies.

    Sorry, you don’t get to make your own definitions in our langauge.

    il·lu·sion
    /iˈlo͞oZHən/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.
    “the illusion makes parallel lines seem to diverge by placing them on a zigzag-striped background”

    An unconscious entity cannot be tricked or deluded. How the hell can you be tricked if you are not even aware of anything at all?

    A system is tricked when it acts in error after exposure to an illusory stimulus. AI aren’t aware and have been tricked by opitcal illusions, as I showed you.

    Now Bliss is going to be cracking open another can of leaded gasoline to vape, as she realizes all hope for eternal life has been stamped out. Atheist-materialist man marches on victoriously.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  145. Bliss says:
    @JohnPlywood

    The whole “hard conscuousness problem” thing is bullshit and has been debunked a thousand times.

    Stupid liar. If it has been debunked where is the solution? Show us. All that you brainwashed atheist- materialist ass-backward fools have to show for your efforts are crackpot illogical theories like “consciousness is a hallucination of the brain” etcetera. That’s neither science nor philosophy. That’s insanity.

    Sorry, you don’t get to make your own definitions in our langauge.

    You are wrong in any language. Illusion is in the perception of the thing, not in the thing itself. The thing can’t trick the laws of nature, can it?

    If there is no observer there is no illusion. Repeated observation can dispel the illusion, while the thing remains unchanged. That proves that illusion is an experience.

    Only a minority of (clearly effeminate homosexual Christian)

    At least a religious person believes there is a higher reality than the material. Which makes a Christian wiser than the highest-IQ atheist.

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