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It’s quite amusing that, read in the wrong (right?) light, this basically comes off as a paean to White Supremacy.

It’s the ultimate humblebrag.

I think there’s quite a lot of truth to this thesis of The Unbearable Lightness of White Supremacy. Regardless of which White faction “wins” this civil war, the power structure itself will remain unchallenged.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Humor, SJWs, Whites 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. DNS says:
    @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

    Geographical distribution of broad racial groups in Europe and the MENA region (Karlin 2020)

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Daniel Chieh
  3. No one talks about you “nose” who supremacy.

    Finance, Government, Media, …

  4. Mr. XYZ says:
    @DNS

    Epic troll responses, Anatoly! Though FWIW if Russians are genuinely POC then Russia should certainly be renamed Chernorossiya! 😉

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  5. Mr. XYZ says:

    White supremacists in the days of Jim Crow: “Blacks are inferior! They should be prohibited from attending white schools or having white teachers!”

    Woke people in the 21st century: “Whites are inherently and incurable racist! Therefore, they should be prohibited from attending and teaching in the same schools as blacks in order for blacks to be safe from evil white microaggressions!”

    What goes around, comes around! 🙁

    • Replies: @Exile
  6. I would like to see similar versions of that infographic made for East Asian culture and Jewish culture.

    what is up with Latvians being Bolsheviks? especially in light of their current NATO membership and atlanticist bent.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Nodwink
  7. @Anatoly Karlin

    On a more general note, literally nobody is interested in investigating the Latvian role in the Bolshevik Revolution.

    * Russian sovoks and Western Russophobes believe it was an overwhelmingly Russian movement and that this was a good thing/bad thing, respectively.

    * Latvians don’t want to highlight it for obvious reasons (muh Soviet occupation… muh reparations/gibs).

    * Neo-Nazis and Alt Rightoids are just obsessed with jooz. (It’s not even a new obsession – Rodzaevsky, Russian interwar fascist leader in Manchuria, has zero mentions of them in his magnum opus). Whereas Latvians are white and dindu nuffin.

  8. That is a very 19th/early 20th century Anglo version of whiteness. Many continental Europeans would disagree with some of the assumptions. And the Anglos abandoned those ‘white values’ long ago i.e. you have more chance of seeing a southern white rhino than a thin Barbie-like Anglo woman these days.

    Also, there is no Judeo-Christian tradition. There is only the Christian tradition. Again, the Judeo in Judeo-Christian reeks of old Anglo Protestantism and New Age Catholicism.

  9. @Mr. XYZ

    Tzvetorossiya would be more appropriate (Цветороссия).

    Jean Marie Le Pen once said something along the lines of: “Europeans have eyes and hair of different color and their skin varies from white to brown with red cheeks when they blush. Therefore, compared to the other populations that are somewhat more uniform in their coloration, Europeans are really people of color. I like Europeans, so I like people of color “. Monsieur Le Pen was also an epic troll of 1488th level.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
  10. @DNS

    And then she deleted her account in a fit of pique.

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
  11. @Anatoly Karlin

    Latvians and Chinese Bolshevik troops were just mercenaries. Like the White Czech légionnaires on the opposite side of the political and military divide. They had an important military impact for a time, but a negligeable political impact.

    What is more interesting is that in the times of NEP and even in the early 30ies a non-negligeable proportion of Latvian national income was dependent on what Latvians settled in Soviet Russia sent back home. Just like the Tadjik gastarbeiters today. Also Karma is a hammer, not a feather. Latvians paid a price for their involvement in the Russian revolution, Jews did too.

    • Agree: utu
  12. Coconuts says:

    “White” is defined exclusively exclusively through the directionality of systems of oppression.

    One of the more interesting things about the current CRT movement (for a left wing movement) is how this is supposed to be the case.

    From a popular CRT resource website:

    https://educatenotindoctrinate.org/

    White:

    A socially created “racial” group who historically and currently receive the benefits of racism in the United States. The category includes all the different ethnic groups of European origin, regardless of differences in their histories, ethnicities, or cultures.

    Given how CRT has been spreading outside the US I suppose this now applies to any society in which BIPOC are present and whites are present (whether POC whites or not).

    Racism is theorised to be manifest whenever there is any group power inequality, and the existence of power inequalities or systems of oppression can be determined by reference to the lived experience of the minority group.

  13. @Bashibuzuk

    Latvians and Chinese Bolshevik troops were just mercenaries. Like the White Czech légionnaires on the opposite side of the political and military divide. They had an important military impact for a time, but a negligeable political impact.

    This is obviously false, Latvians voted 70% for the Bolsheviks and fought for Bolshevik ideas, was the most overrepresented ethnic group in the Cheka, etc. Military impact = political impact in 1918, when you’re the only functional military force of note.

    What is more interesting is that in the times of NEP and even in the early 30ies a non-negligeable proportion of Latvian national income was dependent on what Latvians settled in Soviet Russia sent back home.

    This sounds like a Stalinist urban legend. The Baltics were vastly wealthier than the USSR.

  14. Coconuts says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    One thing that strikes me about CRT itself is that it is like an extended exercise in Trotskyoid trolling, just IRL and at enormous, profitable length in academia. And they are pretty much never as charismatic as J.M. Le Pen.

  15. @Blinky Bill

    I know this is an unrelated topic, but why do you think Russians have historically have had low combat capability in contrast to their peers?

    Poland and Russia have similar IQs, yet throughout the 16th and 17th century, the Poles smashed the Russians repeatedly despite being massively outnumbered. Most notoriously at Klushino where they smashed the Russians desapite being outnumbered 6 to 1.

    The Russians took similar beatings from the Swedes who were always at a 2-1 disadvantage or more.

    Granted, the Russians ultimately defeated both these empires but only after they had been weakened by other wars and when they managed to muster a huge numerical advantage over them.

    They performed slightly better in Post-Peter 18th century. They won against numerical superior foes like the Turks, Mongols and Tatars but never against Western peers.

    In the Crimean war they embarassingly lost to an invading Franco-British force on their own territory despite having the advantage in numbers. The Russians also held a huge advantage in numbers in ww1 yet got trounced by Germany at Tannenberg and Mausarian lakes. Being driven out of Poland by the multiethnic Austrians and a third of the German army.

    I won’t bring up Soviet failures in 1941 because Stalin’s idiocy hemooraged the army. But still, it took them a momentous efffort to ultimately reach Berlin. Despite having air supremacy, a two-one advantage in men, 3-1 in tanks and 5-1 in artillery, it took the Soviets 2 years to regain all their lost territory after Stalingrad.

    It took the Germans 5 months to overrun them in 1941. This was despite a third of the German army and most of its air force being tied up elsewhere.

    It seems that the Russians have never won against a numerically equal Catholic or former catholic nation, ever. This holds true even against fellow slavs like Poles.

    Granted the Germans and Swedes have a slight IQ advantage over Russians( 105 vs 100) but the Poles and French are equal.

    Do you think the catholic churhc had a civilizing effect on the lands it ruled? Its well known that manorialism and Catholicism had a eugenic effect in western Europe, selecting for the upper classes and more neurologically liberal people. Perhaps catholic rule instilled greater group cohesivness and ability to form functional institutions?

    Russia for example has vastly higher corruption compared to Poland and is pooer than Poland as well. This is despite it having vast natural resources and Poland losing a quarter of its population in WW2 and spening 4 decades under Russian domination

  16. I know this is an unrelated topic, but why do you think Russians have historically have had low combat capability in contrast to their peers?

    Poland and Russia have similar IQs, yet throughout the 16th and 17th century, the Poles smashed the Russians repeatedly despite being massively outnumbered. Most notoriously at Klushino where they smashed the Russians desapite being outnumbered 6 to 1.

    The Russians took similar beatings from the Swedes who were always at a 2-1 disadvantage or more.

    Granted, the Russians ultimately defeated both these empires but only after they had been weakened by other wars and when they managed to muster a huge numerical advantage over them.

    They performed slightly better in Post-Peter 18th century. They won against numerical superior foes like the Turks, Mongols and Tatars but never against Western peers.

    In the Crimean war they embarassingly lost to an invading Franco-British force on their own territory despite having the advantage in numbers. The Russians also held a huge advantage in numbers in ww1 yet got trounced by Germany at Tannenberg and Mausarian lakes. Being driven out of Poland by the multiethnic Austrians and a third of the German army.

    I won’t bring up Soviet failures in 1941 because Stalin’s idiocy hemooraged the army. But still, it took them a momentous efffort to ultimately reach Berlin. Despite having air supremacy, a two-one advantage in men, 3-1 in tanks and 5-1 in artillery, it took the Soviets 2 years to regain all their lost territory after Stalingrad.

    It took the Germans 5 months to overrun them in 1941. This was despite a third of the German army and most of its air force being tied up elsewhere.

    It seems that the Russians have never won against a numerically equal Catholic or former catholic nation, ever. This holds true even against fellow slavs like Poles.

    Granted the Germans and Swedes have a slight IQ advantage over Russians( 105 vs 100) but the Poles and French are equal.

    Do you think the catholic churhc had a civilizing effect on the lands it ruled? Its well known that manorialism and Catholicism had a eugenic effect in western Europe, selecting for the upper classes and more neurologically liberal people. Perhaps catholic rule instilled greater group cohesivness and ability to form functional institutions?

    Russia for example has vastly higher corruption compared to Poland and is pooer than Poland as well. This is despite it having vast natural resources and Poland losing a quarter of its population in WW2 and spening 4 decades under Russian domination

    • Replies: @mal
  17. @Anatoly Karlin

    Latvians were mere foot soldiers. Jews were heavily overrepresented in government, to the extent that even Putin admits it.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Simple Handle
  18. A123 says:

    100 Years Ago in the U.S.

    • God was included in Government & Public spaces. “Right” and “Wrong” were unambiguous terms shared by all Americans.
    • Schools taught Patriotism as part of the curriculum.
    • Principals and teachers (before unionization) enforced discipline with corporal punishment (a.k.a. The Paddle [MORE])
    • Marriage was between One Man & One Woman
    • Two parent families provided discipline and stability for children.

    These values brought Americans through two world wars. Clearly they work.
    ____

    Why has American society fallen apart:

    — Exclusion of God from society ended moral authority. There is no longer a shared understanding of “Right” and “Wrong”.
    — Broken families and out of wedlock births deprived children of discipline & stability at home.
    — Socialist/Communist union teachers abolished Patriotism from the curriculum and refused to discipline unruly children.

    Anti-Christian SJW intolerance has driven the U.S. to a breaking point. George Orwell warned about the Two Minutes Hate. And now, the state is pushing CRT Hate. When did the DNC begun using 1984 as a “How to ____ Guide”?

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

  19. Not Raul says:

    In the Soviet Union, being higher up in the regime increased one’s risk of being persecuted. For example, of the 139 full members and candidate members elected at the 17th Party Congress, 98 people were killed in the period 1936–1940. Of these 44 (out of 71) were full members, while 55 (out of 68) were candidate members.

    There were also certain ethnic groups who were heavily persecuted, such as Poles.

  20. @Caspar von Everec

    I think you put too much trust on statistics from Wikipedia battle boxes which I’m almost sure all your numbers comes from.

    This mainly comes down to the technological level. In this regard the Western world has been in the lead for the last half millennium or so. But you won’t get any wiser from looking at old battles. The results of the Opium Wars tells you nothing about a future conflict versus China.

  21. @Anatoly Karlin

    “zero mentions of them”?

    A notorious anti-Semite, Rodzaevsky published numerous articles in the party newspapers Our way and The Nation; he was also the author of the brochure “Judas’ End”[1] and the book “Contemporary Judaisation of the World or the Jewish Question in the 20th Century”.[2]

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  22. utu says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Cowardly bullies know which dog is safe to kick. Vilification of Latvians is risk free.

  23. @Caspar von Everec

    Catholic Poland’s failure to mobilize sufficient infantry is a damning indictment of the Polish ruling class.

    In neighboring Orthodox Russia, Protestant Sweden and Protestant Prussia, the ruling class considered themselves to be of the same race as the common people, and thus had an attitude of solidarity with the common people which enabled them to mobilize large numbers of high quality infantrymen.

    In Poland, on the other hand, the ruling class considered themselves to be members of a separate and antagonistic non-Slavic race, the Sarmatians. Poland’s “Sarmatian” nobility (Slavs LARPing as Turks) gave more privileges to ethnic outsiders such as Lipka Tatars and Jews than to Polish commoners.

  24. @Anatoly Karlin

    This sounds like a Stalinist urban legend. The Baltics were vastly wealthier than the USSR.

    Baltics were around the same level of relative wealth as the 1930ies Ireland, which was rather poor. OTOH Latvians living in Moscow with the connections in the NKVD and the higher levels of CPUS had a higher standard of living than both heir Latvian relatives back home and the majority of the Soviet citizens.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  25. @utu

    Latvian riflmen were indeed among the most combat ready units in the early Red Army and later Latvians were very much present in the CheKa. But I don’t think their role was decisive.

  26. mal says:
    @Caspar von Everec

    It took the Germans 5 months to overrun them in 1941. This was despite a third of the German army and most of its air force being tied up elsewhere.

    Operation Barbarossa involved 4 million Axis vs 3 million frontline Soviets. West had significant numerical advantage, it wouldn’t have attacked otherwise.

    Same with Napoleonic Grand Army.

    Russian armies made it to Paris and a couple of times to Berlin. In WW1, Brusilov offensive wrecked Austro-Hungarian forces. Alexander Nevsky, Suvorov etc were quite capable of winning battles against Western opponents.

    Polish and Swedes got wrecked by Russians too (don’t hear much these days about Polish Commonwealth and Swedish Empire).

    Don’t see Russia being much inferior in wars. As for West being good, Europe was always a slaugher house, constantly at war. Nothing to do with civilizing effect of the Church – totally opposite actually. Wars of religion were massive slaughters and West got good at killing.

    Practice, get better. Those who didn’t get better at killing got killed off.

  27. mal says:

    • LOL: songbird
    • Replies: @-
  28. @John Gruskos

    I guess he meant Latvians.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @John Gruskos
  29. @John Gruskos

    I never knew about Sarmatianism. What a sad development. From a Helleno-Roman perspective, the Poles are an admirable people in the same way one admires, the Irish but there always seemed to be a tragic-comic farcical element to their history.

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  30. That fits me to a “T” except for the last “Competition” part. White people always have difficulty deciding whether to compete or cooperate with each other.

  31. Pericles says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Neo-Nazis and Alt Rightoids are just obsessed with jooz.

    Der Ewige Lette just doesn’t have the right ring to it.

  32. @Agathoklis

    I think that was due to success of Turks/turkics.

    everyone wants to be a winner or larp as a “successful” race.

    just like how people ape the West now and used to ape the Greeks in the past(yes I know now there has been like a 1000 year decline for the Greek world)

    Even look at your past compatriots, its impressive how Turks have managed to completely assimilate all those Greeks and other races especially with how different actual turks look. Usually its very hard to assimilate a foreign entity with such a different haplogroup. Even now with Turks working on Azeris you see them also larping as Turks when Azeris are more Iranic than Turkish.

  33. @Anatoly Karlin

    The first remark I’d make is that Jews are, in a sense, not that special. Any minority group excluded from political power will resent being excluded and will support outsiders, conquerors, revolutions, whatnot. It’s a human universal. The Romanian Communist Party in the 1930s had a number of ethnic Hungarian leaders (besides the usual Jews). The Hungarian communist party, in contrast, had Jewish and (to a smaller extent) ethnically German leadership. The ethnically Hungarian leaders were oddities, like Kádár, the later Hungarian general secretary, was born to a half-Slovak maid in Fiume, a largely Italian city, as a bastard child of a Hungarian soldier who he first met when he was already 48 years old and a dictator. He then grew up in great poverty (and being much smarter than most of his peers in poverty, he must’ve resented it a lot). Such people were bound to harbor resentment against the political system and society at large the same way ethnic minorities were resentful against the oppressive rule of the ethnic majority, and were likely to join utopian political movements.

    Jews were only different for two reasons. One is their higher ethnocentrism and their culture already geared towards loathing the ethnic majority and its traditions. The other is their higher intelligence and organizational abilities, which make their role indispensable for those utopian movements, including wokeness.

    When Lenin (25% Jewish, 0% Latvian) died, there were four leaders who eventually fought it out among themselves to replace him: Trotsky (100% Jewish, 0% Latvian), Stalin (100% Caucasian, probably all Georgian, 0% Latvian), Zinoviev (100% Jewish, 0% Latvian), and Kamenev (50% Jewish, 0% Latvian). By my count this is a group over 60% Jewish and just 0% Latvian. The proportion increases if you take wives into account.

    As to the Latvian vote, it was obviously a protest vote for the only political party which promised Latvia the right of secession. If Russia was a province of the Chinese Empire, would you vote for Mao Zedong if he was the only one to promise Russian independence?

    I think that while the Latvian role in the Bolshevik Revolution is a good retort to Latvian arguments about evil Russia, and it’s interesting to an extent, constantly bringing it up comes off as butthurt. Especially given how much bigger and stronger Russia is than Latvia, it really looks disproportionate.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  34. @Bashibuzuk

    The USSR was poorer still, and the Soviet ruble was not convertible to foreign currencies for private citizens, except on the black market, so it’s hard to believe. The NKVD officials weren’t even really high income, they just received lots of perks and privileges which couldn’t be sent abroad.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  35. @reiner Tor

    Pretty much this

    There’s still a more Jewish angle to it than Latvian (Which Karlin wont discuss about because thats unsafe)

    but ultimately 99% of it was all the Russians doing.(there is a reason why the rest of their neighbors considers them insane) and back before WW2 all you heard was either JudeoBolshevism or MuscoviteBolshevism.

    But if If you others wont listen to a Ukrainian, how about the Poles, Balts, Finns, even Kazakhs and all others around Russia? Maybe there is a reason?

    But its not enough that those Russian creatures wrecked their own country, in their imperial fashion they brought their henchmen and themselves to Ukraine and destroyed the Ukrainian People’s Republic

    You know, also before wokeness, I thought national masochism was a russian only trait, but apparently Americans arent immune to it either.

  36. @John Gruskos

    True. Whether it be the Jews in America, Szlachta in Poland or Normans in England, its fatal for a society to have a ruling class drawn from a different race than the population.

    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    , @AP
  37. @Svidomyatheart

    Most Russians hated Bolshevism. Ethnic Russians were massively underrepresented in the ruling elite. The Soviet union is best understood as a collective oppression of the Russian people by the minorities of the Russian empire.

    Most prominently Jews, who were financed by Jewish bankers abroad, like Max Warburg and Jacob Schiff. In the early soviet union, there was a death penalty for saying the word Yid, the world’s first hate speech laws.

    The revolution even succeeded in the first place because failures in ww1 had weakened the Tsar’s standings and decades of failures finally came to a boiling point.

    But perhaps the most decisive factor that led to Bolshevik victory was land reform. They gave away the nobility and state’s estates to the peasants, thus winning their support.

    In every country in which they came into power, they won it through this means: land reform. Mao won over the Chinese peasantry, Ho Chi Minh won over the Vietnamese peasantry and so on.

    Ironically, communism failed to gain ground in industrial societies as Marx had predicted and instead succeeded in agrarian/feudal societies.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, Not Raul
    • Troll: JohnPlywood
    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
    , @216
  38. @Caspar Von Everec

    Russians only started hating Bolshevism after it started turning the screws on them even though it was explicit about it right away. I dont know how one would call a creature that would vote for such a system but hey oh well. They were the only ones cretinous enough to fall for it in the first place(when literally no one else around them did and guess what other nations and people that russia occupied were also agrarian societies as well).

    Nothing will absolve russians of their “original” Bolshevism sin.

  39. - says:
    @mal

    (1) Speaking of that political horseshoe, if CRT and WN agree at the edges — whites (in the main) value what both the Left and the Right acknowledge as “white traits” — intelligence, focus, logic, dispassion, self-reliance, punctuality; then that leaves the middle, “classical Liberalism”, clinging to the never wholly accepted (not even by the most liberal of Episcopalian Hillary-Clinton whites) belief that “we’re all the same, can’t we all just get along?!”

    (With thanks to that drowned druggie and black classical liberal philosopher, Rodney King.)

    (2) And let’s not forget that, by inescapable dictum of logic, if lefty CRT acknowledges and disseminates in poster form “white traits of logic, perserverance, self-reliance, punctuality” et cetera, then lefty CRT implicitly and inescapably acknowledges …

    … brown traits of “irrationality, fickleness, dependence on and parasitically living off of others, inability to gauge time” et cetera.

    Weirdly enough, it’s been popularly acknowledged for decades if not centuries — way before CRT was synthesized — that blacks are … “lazy, shiftless, shuffling, welfare-cheats, observe their own Negro time-zone” et cetera.

    Clearly CRT has caught up with WN in elucidating these truths.

    So now where’s the poster to be hung in every classroom listing BLACK/BROWN traits?

    (See also the new article on British explorer Sir Richard Francis Burton, right here on UNZ.)

  40. @Svidomyatheart

    They were the only ones cretinous enough to fall for it in the first place(when literally no one else around them did

    Hungarians (though that was also not a democratically elected government), Munich Bavarians, even Vienna Austrians (the Austrian Social Democrats were not communist, but they were perhaps the closest to it), even many Italians (the Italian socialists, like the Austrian social democrats, were pretty radical, hell bent on abolishing private property etc.), and then after WW2 the Czechs. The latter voted it into the strongest political party in 1945.

    And you didn’t answer the Latvian vote. Sure you can explain it, but so can you Russian support for this.

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  41. @Caspar Von Everec

    In the UK, descendants of Normans are more likely to align with (and even mate with) the rich of other countries – Euros, Jews, Arabs, Americans etc – than ever mingle with the UK lower orders. In fact, I don’t know of even one instance of the latter.

  42. @Svidomyatheart

    In 1917 an election was held and the Bolsheviks only won 20% of the vote

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  43. @reiner Tor

    Well I always thought the Hungarian commie government was forced on them with that Bela Kun guy?

    The Czechs idk maybe they never got to experience communism thats why they voted for it? Remember in since the 30s the USSR had “tours” where they would literally let foreigners tour into certain parts of the country and give them gifts to promote socialism abroad. So maybe the Czechs toured the rich part of the USSR?

    And you answered the Latvian vote yourself. They were promised freedom and power by the Bolsheviks.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @reiner Tor
  44. @Caspar Von Everec

    Yes I know that ….but even 20% is excessive.

    • Replies: @AP
  45. @Svidomyatheart

    Well I always thought the Hungarian commie government was forced on them with that Bela Kun guy?

    One guy can never force himself on a whole country. The leftist government and interim president Károlyi resigned on March 20, 1919 after the ultimatum of the Entente powers requiring to give up a quarter of what remained of the country at that point. Károlyi asked the social democrats to form a new government alone. But they felt too weak to start a war against the Entente (in practice the Romanians and the Czechs), and so they asked Kun and his communists. Kun didn’t have overwhelming support, but he was relatively strong in the capital (which is why he was feared as he had the ability to cause trouble in the capital). The two parties together enjoyed support, but it was far from overwhelming, not even in the capital. Anyway Kun managed to merge the two parties, dominate the united party, and introduce a dictatorship.

    Kun’s government fell apart a few months later when he tried to trade territory for international recognition. (He ended up with neither…)

  46. @Svidomyatheart

    And you answered the Latvian vote yourself. They were promised freedom and power by the Bolsheviks.

    Russians were promised lots of things, too.

  47. @utu

    The limitrophe parasite cries out in pain as it strikes you.

  48. @Svidomyatheart

    Post seems to have drawn a lot of limitrophic life forms to the blog.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  49. @utu

    Cowardly bullies know which dog is safe to kick. Vilification of Latvians is risk free.

    Totally agree with this comment, AK isn’t man enough to talk about the real threat. The personal cost would be devastating.

    [MORE]

    Estonians.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
  50. @Caspar von Everec

    The Russians took similar beatings from the Swedes who were always at a 2-1 disadvantage or more.

    Till battle of Poltava, Sweden had the best and most disciplined army in all of Europe, again and again numerically superior German and Polish foes got beaten by Sweden in the 17th century, it could be said that they were the Sparta or Prussia of the 17th century.

    I don’t know much about battles between Poles and Russians in the 17th century, but Poles had access to excellent German mercenary troops, and PLC had about as big population as Russia had in those times, but with one big difference, Poland was much more densely populated, and her climate was milder, therefore it’s not strange if PLC was economically more developed and agriculturally more bountiful land than Russia.

  51. @Caspar von Everec

    Cherry picked and skewed to the point that I can see why two people attached the Troll label to it.

    (1) Which European country did well against France from 16C to 1815?

    (2) Results of military engagements with both Poland and Turkey were generally a stalemate until late 17C, then Russia began to consistently win.

    (3) Russia wasn’t doing well against Germany during 1914-16, but then again, neither was anyone in military terms. It was however gaining on both A-H and Turkey.

    (4) Even during WW2, despite its self-inflicted wounds, it did not perform worse than Poland or France against Germany during 1941-42.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Caspar Von Everec
  52. @Caspar von Everec

    Are you this Caspar von Everec?

    [MORE]

    Based on the structure of your arguments I assume you are.

    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
  53. SIMP simp says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Latvians paid a price for their involvement in the Russian revolution

    And Russia paid a price for conquering Latvia in the first place. Even the jewish population of Russia was acquired through the russian conquest of most of the polish-lithuanian commonwealth. Diversity and hatred are the price of empire. Latvians had no duty of loyalty to their occupier, especially given how much Russia favored the baltic german elites which were lording over latvians since the medieval baltic crusades.

  54. @John Gruskos

    Poland’s “Sarmatian” nobility (Slavs LARPing as Turks)

    I have long thought that it was a form of larping, but oddly the Polish nobility of Eastern borderlands or the Kresy, often had very Turkic or Altaic looking symbols in their coat of arms, or their arms often resemble Altaic Tamgas. Tamgas were like coat of arms of nomadic peoples of the steppes. So it’s possible that some Polish noble houses had distant and remote nomadic origins.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  55. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Russia wasn’t doing well against Germany during 1914-16, but then again, neither was anyone in military terms. It was however gaining on both A-H and Turkey.

    If Russia were at war versus a strictly A-H and Ottoman alliance, it would have had a crushing victory against those two Great Powers.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  56. Truly a great man, even had a black friend and mentor!

    [MORE]

    Military historians often debate between Suvorov and Napoleon as to who was the superior commander. I think this settles it.

  57. @reiner Tor

    Few dare name the Latvian.

    The consequences are severe.

  58. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Till battle of Poltava, Sweden had the best and most disciplined army in all of Europe

    Swedes were outnumbered about 2.5 to 1 at Poltava.

    Polish foes got beaten by Sweden in the 17th century

    Their early 17th century war ended in a draw:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Swedish_War_(1600%E2%80%931611)

    Although PLC had about ten times the population of Sweden, efficient Swedish conscription meant that the militaries were of approximately equal size.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  59. @John Gruskos

    I’ve had the unfortunate experience of meeting Poles in Dalian — who are doubtless of common folk stock. I do not blame their nobles for finding them repellent. Importing Jews and giving them rights however is 1000x times worse.

  60. @AP

    Sweden was a crazily mobilized society for its time.

  61. @reiner Tor

    This is not correct. I suggest you read about NEP, Torgsin and British Soviet Trade Agreement of 1921. In general, the early Soviet international trade is a fascinating topic You might start by reading about the activities of Leonid Krasin and unwind the threads from there.

    High levels of Bolshevik party were very well integrated into the global economy of that time and had access to everything any wealthy bourgeois in London, Paris or New York might have had access to. Cynically speaking, at the time it was way more profitable to be politically well connected in Moscow than in Baltic States which were an economic backwater. Latvian Bolsheviks working in Soviet Russia were extremely well connected and profited economically from their networks of influence.

  62. @AltanBakshi

    Some of them were of Tatar descent.

  63. @Svidomyatheart

    You realize that the Civil War in Russia was a very violent and bloody affair that made millions of victims?

    If Russians were so enthusiastic about Bolshevism, then who was doing the fighting against the Red Army?

    BTW, no need to answer these two rhetorical questions. I do not waste my time discussing with obvious trolls and what you wrote was too idiotic to be anything else than a very crude form of trolling.

  64. @John Gruskos

    Sarmatians were Iranians, idiot. The Slavs do have ancestry from the Sarmatian people and there are even minor Iranian influences in the Slavic languages. The Sarmatians also directly descended from the same ancestors (Baltic Corded Ware) as Slavs.

    • Replies: @AP
  65. Znzn says:

    I thought it was the conspiracy of the Koreans in Russia which led to the October revolution?

  66. Znzn says:

    You can argue that England and France were doing OK to well in the West, considering what happened in 1871, and and how Germany’s economy was arguably more efficient and had a more solid industrial base than UK and France in 1914, its society was also more militarized than the UK. And arguably militarizing the German civilian economy was easier than doing the same for the British and French economy.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  67. AP says:
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Szlachta weren’t from a different race than their peasants for the most part, they just pretended to be. (or rather, thought they were). Russian nobility was far more foreign relative to those they ruled than were the Polish szlachta.

    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
  68. Znzn says:

    Which would put you at a greater risk of being cancelled in Russia, or the West for that matter, criticizing Latvians or Jews? You still do not want to end up like Kevin MacDonald or Giraldi? I mean criticizing Jews or Zionism carries more reputational risk than bloviating about transhumanism, malthusian whatever, or about scheming Baltics? Maybe someone should check up on what those Yakuts are doing in Siberia prior to 1917?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  69. 128 says:

    Who made up an overwhelming bulk of the conscripts of the Red Army in the Russian civil war? Probably Russians and other Slavs as well?

  70. 128 says:

    I mean compare Baltic Germans to Jews, they also made as much contributions, while causing only a fraction of the political problems in Russia that Jews did. I mean the Russian Empire would rather have Baltic Germans as an elite rather than Jews, maybe all things considering.

  71. 128 says:

    What are the list of things that would get you cancelled in Russia? As an aside, what percentage of Sweden’s male fighting age population was mobilized at any one time in the year 1700? in the 80s the Swedish had plans to mobilize 10 percent of its population in wartime.

  72. A123 says:

    Here is a Prager graphic that is an effective counter.

    PEACE 😇

     

    • Disagree: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @songbird
  73. AP says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Sarmatians were Iranians

    You are correct, but in the 16th to early 17th century it was widely and erroneously believed that Sarmatians had been a Turkic people. At the time, the Ottoman Empire was probably the most powerful state in Europe and the Polish Sarmatians, by claiming to be a type of Turks themselves, placed themselves on the same level as the mighty Ottomans and above other peoples. Moreover, the Sarmatians felt that their Christianity made them “good” Turks in comparison to the unredeemed Ottoman Turks.

    Sarmatism was taken for granted by other peoples in the PLC. Cossacks claimed to be Turkic Khazars (thus, as fellow Turks, equal to the Szlachta).

  74. @Caspar von Everec

    Versus Japs
    Russo-Japanese War— more of a draw on land. Both got exhausted and wanted to settle. Baltic Fleet did get waxed by Heihachiro at Tsushima Strait but Japs had home field advantage.

    Nomonhan Incident— outclassed cream de la cream of IJA. (The same Jap tactical planner, Masanobu Tsuji, planned Tomoyuki Yamashita’s capture of Singapore, what Churchill called worst disaster in British military history)

    Soviet strength was, however, composite, depending on the combined arms mass and not the single unit.

    While a Japanese squad might charge headlong into a Soviet infantry platoon with a good chance for success, the same squad would be shot to pieces if they tried to rush Soviet tanks.

    Nomonhan: Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat,· 1939
    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a322749.pdf

    If I understand correctly, Nomonhan was first crack by Zhukov at what should be considered the most successful doctrine in WWII, more so than Blitzkrieg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation
    Managing combined arms ops on a massive scale at Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk. And managing maskirovka on a continental sized theatre at Bagration
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception#Operation_Bagration,_1944

    Manchurian Operation— Soviet build up to a similar size as Kursk. Textbook execution on 3 pincers against an IJA that had plenty of teeth left per casualty ratios at Okinawa.

    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
  75. @A123

    Disagree on all three for tradwives.

  76. @Anatoly Karlin

    The Swedes were something else, something weird. Well, Swedes are weird anyway, but Swedish weirdness hit a glorious peak in the 17th century, when the Swedish “zombie” troops marched across Germany and the Baltics.

    Not the Swedes, though. They just scowled their way forward,

    http://exiledonline.com/wn-33-the-battle-of-breitenfeld/

  77. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The Russian victory over Japan in 1945 was a masterful operation. Three pincers acting over a territory as large as Western Europe. Japan’s Kuwatung army was stripped of good divisions a well, and the Japanese army always lacked good tanks, motorization and automatic weapons. Their artillery was ww1-tier.

    The Russians did win at Khalkin Gol at 1945 but despite heavy numerical and air superiority, they still lost more troops

  78. @Znzn

    We all have our faults. For instance, maybe you shouldn’t be a sockpuppeting faggot who talks shit behind my back on other blogs?

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Simple Handle
  79. @Anatoly Karlin

    1) Many European countries did. France was defeated in the field when in entered the 30 years war and even Paris was threatened by Spanish forces.

    The British defeated the French at Blenheim, wiped them out in North America and many other places.

    The Prussians humiliated them at Rosbach, so much so that Napoleon talked about Rossbach being avenged 50 years later.

    France was no Germany during this time. It had the largest army and was well trained, but it was hardly invincible, regularly losing to other European powers, sometimes even despite outnumbering enemies.

    I think you are conflating France from 1793-1815 with that of the Ancien regime.

    2) Poland was sandwiched and depopulated by Sweden and Russia in the Deluge, and the Ukrainian rebellion. Yet, she defeated and expelled the Swedes, expelled some German states, expelled tatars and finally defeated the Russians despite being exhausted and outnumbered 2-1.

    The Russians generally lost pitched battles when they fought against Poles. Granted they ultimately came out on top over Sweden and Poland but both were fighting wars on every fronts and exhausted by them. Plus the Russian 2-1 or 3-1 advantage over them.

    3) Somewhat true, but the British and French fought almost comparably. Inflicting roughly equal casualties at Somme, Verdun and Ypres.

    4) Poland can hardly be considered at this time due to their lack of a tank or air force. But I don’t hold bad Russian performance against Germany in 1941-42. The Red army had been crippled by the purges and commissars stiffled any initiative on the part of officers. Stalin’s direct blunders played a great part as well.

    However, Russia did perform significantly worse that the western allies in 1943-45 when they did have air superiority and huge material and numerical superiority.

    • Replies: @Sin City Milla
  80. Znzn says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What made you think I was talking about you?

  81. Znzn says:

    Did I name anyone here?

  82. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Had WW I started in 1916, Russia would’ve done much better against Germany. Following the troubles of 1905, Russia was making great strides without Lenin

    • Agree: AP, Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AP
  83. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Germany would have certainly done much better against Germany in 1916, but probably wouldn’t have been able to win until 1930 or so.

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  84. Znzn says:

    And I just noted that saying bad things about Jews , Israel, or Zionism will put you in a lot more trouble than saying bad things about Latvians, especially for the latter two after 2001, which is not at all incorrect. I mean I remember when demanding that Israel go back the the 1967 border was somewhat in the mainstream among liberals before 2001. I mean I still remember people with such views getting lots of airtime on CNN during the late 90s.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  85. @Znzn

    Your IP matches 128’s except to the last three digits, both resolving to the same geographic location, the same ISP, and you each said more or less exactly the same thing, as if you had forgotten to switch accounts. Why?

    What made you think I was talking about you?

    Don’t try to be smart. I am on the cusp of banning you for sockpuppetry.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  86. songbird says:
    @A123

    If it is thought of as advice, doesn’t point number one make it a tautology? The issue is not that poor people are not choosing full-time jobs, but it is that all that is open to them is part-time jobs.

    I also dislike points two and three.

    Point two makes it seem like we should ensure that everyone graduates high school. (some years ago, the founder of Wendy’s attained his GED at about age 62, and people were applauding him – seemed silly to me) Anyway, it is obvious that education does not make people smarter. And I think a lot people don’t benefit by going past the 8th grade. I would even extend this to smart people, where if it were possible for them to have a job that used their brains and gave them experience, that might be better.

    As regards point three, I think most people should not marry that young, but that does not mean that it would be bad for society in every case. Ideally, one would want people of high intelligence and the right personality traits to get married as soon as possible, so that they could have as many children as possible, to help make for a better demographic situation.

    • Replies: @A123
  87. @Caspar Von Everec

    However, Russia did perform significantly worse that the western allies in 1943-45 when they did have air superiority and huge material and numerical superiority.

    First problem with this statement is that Allies were only facing a Wehrmacht Corp, i.e. Afrika Korps, plus the Italians, up until Normandy. Soviets were dealing with 3 Army Groups.

    The Russians did win at Khalkin Gol at 1945 but despite heavy numerical and air superiority, they still lost more troops

    That’s not the point. The point is that even when Panzergruppe Guderian and Hoth were closing in on Kremlin, Japan thought was more risky to make a move on Russia Far East than to attack US/UK/Dutch simultaneously.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  88. @Anatoly Karlin

    Fader vår som som är i himmelen helgat varde ditt namn
    Tillkomme ditt rike ske din vilja
    Såsom i himmelen så ock uppå jorden ge oss bröd ock idag
    Och förlåt oss våran skuld

    • Replies: @Pericles
  89. A123 says:
    @songbird

    Are young people in part-time jobs because that is all there is?
    Or, because they lack the personal capacity to handle a full time job?

    In non-US locations with a commitment vocational education, swapping to an apprentice track leads to an improvement in outcome. In the U.S. if you do not have a HS Diploma or GED, your resume/application is likely to be screened out. While it is possible to succeed, missing the credential is an obstacle.

    Your commentary on overall species genetics may be true. Also, the existence of exceptional cases exist is unsurprising. However, at the individual level — Statistics show that individuals who have children young, especially unwed mothers under 18, have worse outcomes.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @songbird
  90. rkka says:
    @Caspar von Everec

    I won’t bring up Soviet failures in 1941 because Stalin’s idiocy hemooraged the army.

    Someone isn’t familiar with how the Germans crushed or put to headlong flight fully mobilized & alerted Western allied armies numbering ~3.5m in six weeks in 1940. Germans lost 27k killed doing that.

    The 1.7m Soviet troops in the immediate border zone killed 83k German troops, plus thousands more of German minor allies, in the first 7 weeks of Op. Barbarossa.

    • Agree: Not Raul, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
  91. @AP

    AFAIK, parts of the Russian nobility have roots in the Germanic vikings of the Rus that settled Russia. But that was all the way back in 9th century, its likely that they simply melded into the Russian identity over time.

    That said, the Russian nobility did have many Baltic Germans in their ranks.

    As for the Szlachta, weren’t the Sarmatians an Iranic/Aryan tribe of the steppes? Genetically they should’ve been pretty close to the Polish peasantry.

    • Replies: @AP
  92. @rkka

    True, the French got outfoxed by the Germans. But the Soviets had much more territory to fall back on. Plus, they had 20,000 tanks, 50,000 guns and mortars and a total standing military of 5.3 million. Granted 2.6 million were initial in the West, but more streamed in, and these units were saved from the initial shock.

    Russian formations were badly managed that they ran out of fuel and ammo on their own territory. The Soviet air force lost 2000 aircraft in one day. The Soviets kept suffering catastrophic defeats after defeats even after the Germans had overextended their supply lines deep into soviet territory and were tired from months of combat.

    At Kiev, they lost 700,000 troops, an entire army group. At Vyazma, in front of Moscow, they lost 665,000 troops, mostly captured. The Soviets lost 5 million men in the first 6 months of the war.

    3,300,000 captured, 1,000,000 dead and 3 million wounded(I’ll assume only a third of these were irredeemable losses). In contrast, the entire German force invading Russia was only 3,3 million to begin with.

  93. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    True. The Japanese army was qualitatively superior to the Soviets and perhaps even the Americans. They were very well led and incredibly fanatical and professional. But they lacked heavy equipment. No Japanese tank or artillery could put a dent in the T-34s and their ww1-era guns stood no chance before 105 mm soviet guns

  94. songbird says:
    @A123

    Credentialism is the bane of civilization – why SK’s TFR is currently sitting at about 1.1.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @A123
    , @Pumblechool
  95. 128 says:
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Any proof of this? Perhaps in 1941 to 1H 1942, but definitely not thereafter, they were only good in defense and digging tunnels and bunkers, basically that was it. But then anyone with more than a basic knowledge of military tactics would with it any to seriously mess up defence, but of course being a clairvoyant and knowing everything that the enemy will do is not possible.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2010/06/09/who-was-the-tougher-world-war-ii-enemy-the-germans-or-the-japanese/

  96. 128 says:

    I mean anyone who has a decent knowledge of military tactics would find it hard to seriously mess up a defence, attacking is a lot harder.

  97. 128 says:

    The Japanese at Guadalcanal seem to not know what the term outflanking maneuver means.

  98. Imagine how ossified and odd you would be if you were solely defined by all of that.

    But then imagine how completely f*cking deranged you would be if you defined yourself against it!

    What a joke.

  99. @128

    What are you taking about? Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of military strategy would choose to attack. You may need a higher force ratio, but, because you have the initiative, you can concentrate your force at the enemy’s weak points. You have betrayed your complete ignorance lol

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  100. @Caspar von Everec

    They don’t understand it in the way of Russia having a parasite, instead (they think) it gives them an in on the (holo)scam. By attaching themselves to the supposed victim they themselves can become one. It’s almost like they can’t learn – after it backfired on Poland and Russia now being subjected to the daily 10 minutes of hate.

  101. songbird says:
    @128

    I mean anyone who has a decent knowledge of military tactics would find it hard to seriously mess up a defence

    Is this really true?

    MacArthur’s father was an army captain. Douglas was valedictorian of a military institute, and graduated first in his class at Westpoint, having the 3rd highest score ever, at that time.

    And there are many more instances like that.

    • Replies: @128
  102. @Anatoly Karlin

    I once (only; I swear) negatively commented on the re-print of your article on now defunct Russia Insider.

    I hope that’s OK.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  103. rkka says:
    @Caspar Von Everec

    On the other hand, Soviet defensive troop density per km of front on 22 June ‘41 was a fraction of what the Anglo-French enjoyed in May ‘40, so in ‘41 the Germans could pick & mass on weak points with ease.

    What all these tales of woe miss is that the Red Army inflicted casualties the likes of which exceeded the experience of the Germans in the entire war to that point. Casualties that exceeded the German capacity to replace them. Then there’s how the Red Army kept invalidating the assumptions at the foundations of Op. Barbarossa. The Germans expected a merry 12-16 week jaunt to the A-A line, with 4-6 weeks of messy business destroying all battleworthy elements of the Red Army (180 divisions, they figured) before they could withdraw beyond the Dnepr, followed by collapse of Soviet resistance, & exploitation to the A-A line.

    What they got was something entirely different, including a butcher’s bill that would see the infantry companies of AG Center reduced to a strength of 50-60 by November ‘41.

    • Agree: sher singh
  104. A123 says:
    @songbird

    Credentialism is the bane of civilization

    Credentialism is a symptom of larger problems.

    That being said, the best move for individuals in today’s society is obtaining a basic credential. Unemployed, starving, 18-20 year olds are not in a position to look at the larger issues of a civilization in distress.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  105. 128 says:
    @songbird

    MacArthur and Percival had raw troops, vs. veteran Japs, MacArthur did quite well in Bataan later on, , where the terrain favored him, and the retreat from Lingayen and Lamon Bay, past Manila, to Bataan, was generally well carried out. As for Singapore, Percival choosing the Northeast quadrant as the likely and logical place of attack and the main axis of expected advance was quite reasonable, since it had the most favorable terrain for an attacking force, and an advance there would carry an attacking force straight into Singapore. And the British C and C system was not that good all throughout the campaign. Plus Percival did not have enough men to cover all possible axes of advance, since a large part of his forces in Singapore were rear area troops. And the British lost control of the air by that time.

    A lot of this is really down to a commander’s gut feel rather than logic or intelligence, and for all that the French did well at Gembloux where they were expecting the main German effort. If the French had just gotten a little bit sooner at Bulson ridge then they could have taken the German bridgehead at the rear in Sedan.

    • Replies: @songbird
  106. @A123

    I don’t see anyone starving, do you?

  107. 128 says:

    OK maybe people should look at the Egyptian’s role in European history.

  108. @Caspar Von Everec

    First mistake by French was giving Germans strategic initiative.

    Mansteinplan was high risk high reward. The execution of Guderian, Rommel, et al was even riskier as after Ardennes breakthrough, their spearhead could have easily been cut off.

    Better lucky than good. The French also had internal dissension between right wing and commies.

    But Germans luck ran out in Russia first by delaying Barbarossa to bail out the Italians in Balkans. Then running into autumn mud season, then Stalins best generals January and February without winter gear.

    In second part of Ostfront, Soviet generals really stepped up their game. It was not a foregone conclusion that Wehrmacht would get totally rolled back. After 3rd Battle of Kharkov they never again made the mistake of over-extending.

    • Replies: @128
    , @reiner Tor
  109. @utu

    Vilification of Latvians is hilarious

  110. Matra says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Neo-Nazis and Alt Rightoids are just obsessed with jooz

    Since about 2002 this term has been used exclusively by neocons & Boomer American conservatards. I thought commenter A123 would be the only one to ever use it at this blog.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
  111. 128 says:
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Weygand instead of Gamelin taking charge would have helped much. Or having the category A units west of Sedan be better positioned, for have the French DCR arrive at Bulson a few minutes earlier.

    • Replies: @Sin City Milla
  112. Pericles says:
    @John Gruskos

    … Ske din vilja, såsom i himmelen så ock på jorden
    Vårt dagliga bröd giv oss idag
    Och förlåt oss våra skulder
    Såsom ock vi förlåta dem oss skyldiga äro.
    Och inled oss icke i frestelse, utan fräls oss ifrån ondo.
    Ty riket är ditt, och makten, och härligheten, i evighet.
    Amen.

    (The modern version is lame, btw.)

  113. @Anatoly Karlin

    “Neo-Nazis and Alt Rightoids”

    just wondering if you are aware of your own horseshoe with CRT…

  114. @Caspar Von Everec

    It is a theory of mine that these horrific losses were caused by the jewish commissars that were willing to throw the unarmed (and untrained) muzhiks against the Germans even (or maybe especially) in hopeless situations when a tactical retreat may have been better. They were always good at sacrificing – to the last of the goyim; and still at it today.

    The other side of the coin may have been the lack of motivation on the side of the muzhiks (why fight for the parasite, right?). This would be very similar to what’s happening today in the “Western” armies. Unz just republished Striker’s article on the very subject.

    Too bad that Russia pounced on this as a chance to establish its own founding myth of victimhood. It is a bundle of lies that will have to be untangled first. You can’t be a moral authority with a background like that.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  115. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Germany would have certainly done much better against Germany in 1916, but probably wouldn’t have been able to win until 1930 or so.

    Maybe-maybe not.

    Russia had sheer numbers in population and natural resources, including horsepower. A major Russian military mistake in 1914 had to do with its early strike into Germany. This was done to save Paris.

    It has been reasonably deduced that Stalin’s initial reluctance to militarily confront Germany was on account of what happened in 1914.

    WW I starting in 1916 would’ve been more beneficial to Russia than Germany. Such an occurrence wouldn’t have led to as much destruction for Russia, thus decreasing the likelihood of the Bolshevik takeover.

    On the eve of WW I, Russia was seen as a major power on the rise for even greater prowess.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Gerard-Mandela
  116. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Simple Handle

    I once (only; I swear) negatively commented on the re-print of your article on now defunct Russia Insider.

    It’s not defunct. Decreased status yes.

  117. songbird says:
    @128

    When the Japs were landing, they came under fire from one machine gun, until it jammed. Their landing was practically unopposed, even though it was fairly predictable where they would try to land.

    MacArthur allowed the planes at Clarke Air Base to be clustered together, against the threat of sabotage.

    MacArthur did quite well in Bataan later on

    He didn’t lay in the supplies, even though he had ample opportunity and was advised to do so.

    where the terrain favored him

    Bataan was kind of malarial. I’m not sure that it made sense to bring in as many troops as he did, especially when he didn’t lay in supplies.

    • Replies: @128
  118. 128 says:
    @songbird

    Fighting it out in Bataan is better than a Stalingrad in Manila with the same result.

  119. 128 says:

    And General Marshall did promise to reinforce Bataan to MacArthur.

  120. @Pericles

    The modern version is lame

    The Germanization of heavy metal Christianity.

  121. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I agree that Russia was improving, but in 1914 it was not only two years way from being able to defeat Germany.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  122. AP says:
    @Caspar Von Everec

    AFAIK, parts of the Russian nobility have roots in the Germanic vikings of the Rus that settled Russia.

    Rurik was a Norseman, many of his entourage were Wends.

    According to Russian historian Vernadsky, a survey of Russian noble families of the 17th century revealed: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origins, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.

    Source: Vernadsky, George. (1970). The Mongols and Russia. A History of Russia, Vol. III. New Haven: Yale University Press

    To this can be added a bunch of Baltic German noble families after the Baltics were annexed in the 18th century.

    These people were all pretty much Russified, and some of the alleged Western European origins may have been apocryphal. But still, the Russian nobility were largely non-Russian by descent, but who thought of themselves as Russians.

    In contrast, the Polish nobility really were mostly Poles by descent, but they pretended they weren’t, they pretended to be Sarmatians.

    The Russian Revolution swept away the elites who were of largely ancient Lithuanian, Norse, German, Tatar origin and replaced them with a new but also largely non-Russian elite – of Caucasian, Jewish, Latvian origins. This new batch of non-Slavs ruling over the Russians was a lot worse than the previous one.

  123. 128 says:
    @reiner Tor

    How about having a market dominant minority that is also interested in participating in politics in not a very good thing? I mean the Chinese in South East Asia, traditionally concentrate only on making money, but stay out of politics, because they think it is a very dirty business they do not want to engage in, plus they do not want to draw more attention to themselves by being prominent in politics, instead they just try to befriend friendly politicians, instead of taking sides in political questions. And politicians in South East Asia, like Suharto and Hun Sen, tends to be friendly to anyone who is willing to support them with funds. And overseas Chinese tend to be not deficient in verbal IQ if the competition are native South East Asians.

  124. AP says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    It was, but it was still only 20% in Russia voting for the Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks won about 10% of the vote in Ukraine. Bolsheviks violently seized Russia and then used Russia as their vehicle to take over Ukraine also. Russians (and non-Galician Ukrainians) can at worst be blamed for being too passive in the face of the Bolshevik takeover because not enough of them fought against the Bolsheviks, particularly in the beginning. Of course they couldn’t have known the horrors that waited for them. As with the people on the hijacked planes on 9-11, who had they known of their fate would probably have desperately overpowered the terrorists.

  125. RSDB says:
    @Pericles

    There’s a modern version? Just changed words, or changed meanings?

    • Replies: @Pericles
  126. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I agree that Russia was improving, but in 1914 it was not only two years way from being able to defeat Germany.

    Two years away from not having a situation develop into a Bolshe seizure. Germany lost WW I with a 1914 start. A 1916 start wouldn’t have helped it anymore, while being beneficial to Russia, thereby leading to the conclusion of a victorious Russia.

    • Replies: @216
    , @AP
  127. @AP

    Yes Bolsheviks won there. Thats the whole point.

    Why are you going so easily on them? Seriously, they brought those demons here. Lenin whips them into a frenzy and they go off to invade places they arent invited to.

    I think years spent on this forum has made you soft on the Russians, You are forgiving roughly 10 mil(oh nooo all the gorillions) Ukrainians slain by these Russians and their various lackeys between 1917 and 1947. And yes im pinning ww2 casualties by Germans on Ukr soil on the Russians too because USSR jointly started the war.

    what kind of cuckery is this? They trashed this country possibly permanently and you’re like “oh no russki they dindu nuffin they be good bois”

    kikes dont let one..ONE victim go unpunished and instead seek to avenge them

    Ill be honest with you you’re a bigger traitor than those Russians… I mean I can understand them..they will never change…the Russian creature will remain a parasite on a Ukrainian land..but you? Snap out of it man.

    • Replies: @AP
  128. @AP

    Why are you going so easily on them? Seriously, they brought those demons here. Lenin whips them into a frenzy and they go off to invade places they arent invited to.

    I think years spent on this forum has made you soft on the Russians, You are forgiving roughly 10 mil(oh nooo all the gorillions) Ukrainians slain by these Russians and their various lackeys between 1917 and 1947. And yes im pinning ww2 casualties by Germans on Ukr soil on the Russians too because USSR jointly started the war.

    what kind of cuckery is this? They trashed this country possibly permanently and you’re like “oh no russki they dindu nuffin they be good bois”

    kikes dont let one..ONE victim go unpunished and instead seek to avenge them

    Ill be honest with you you’re a bigger traitor than those Russians… I mean I can understand them..they will never change…the Russian creature will remain a parasite on a Ukrainian land..but you? Snap out of it man.

    • Troll: Mikhail
  129. LOL my comments got shadowbanned

    Karlin cant handle it so he had to cancel my ability to post

    oh nooo Russians dindu nuffin they definitely didnt fight in the Red Army in the millions to support Bolshevism

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  130. 216 says: • Website
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Ironically, communism failed to gain ground in industrial societies as Marx had predicted and instead succeeded in agrarian/feudal societies.

    It appears that communism is most popular in “post-industrial” societies. Its fusion with technocracy and urbanity has brought it back from the dead in the West.

    These two factors explain in large part why far-right nationalists have largely failed in winning power after the populist triumphs in 2016.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  131. 216 says: • Website
    @Mikhail

    The Irish Home Rule bill in 1914 nearly caused a civil war in the UK, which was punted away by the entry into the Great War.

    Assuming the war happens later, the UK is unable to enter while dealing with the struggle in Ireland.

    The Germans had also secretly concluded that they could not win the naval arms race, and increased the army budget instead, but did not publicly acknowledge the slowdown in naval construction.

    Perhaps the MP18 emerges earlier in the alt-war.

  132. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Most of the political parties in Ukraine during the revolutionary war period were socialist in orientation. Because the Bolsheviks were one of the many socialist parties, perhaps they didn’t attract as much aversion as they should have by the masses? As you point out ” they couldn’t have known the horrors that waited for them”.

  133. @Mikhail

    On the eve of WW I, Russia was seen as a major power on the rise for even greater prowess.

    Defeat by Japan? 1st revolution? Jews with power in the western press, endlessly moaning about the Pogroms? No control of Africa, or the gulf meaning the west could compete with Russia in ownership of natural resources – but different to Russia they could keep the millions of people living on those lands impoverished and not get effected by it because these lands are separate from their lands .

    In Russian Empire every part, every citizen was treated as important/relatively equal -placing Russia ( in global power terms) at a severe disadvantage because it’s a population at the time 3 times bigger than France, Japan or UK, bigger than US, Germany.

    Can you imagine if UK had to subsidise and fund Nigeria and help develop the native into equals, like Russia did Gruzia or Azerbaijan ?( well, OK , Anglo’s were important in Azerbaijan, but that is a separate issue)…….UK would have killed itself as a power.

    On eve of WW1, Russia was of course a great power, as at any time in the last 400 years – but “on the rise for even greater prowess” is highly debatable.If it had the gift of having the geographic location of the US in 1914 – then maybe.

  134. AP says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    Yes Bolsheviks won there. Thats the whole point.

    I place blame on will, not who won. Only about 1/5 of the Russian people supported the Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks had to kill a lot of Russians to seize power.

    Why are you going so easily on them? Seriously, they brought those demons here. Lenin whips them into a frenzy and they go off to invade places they arent invited to.

    Lenin whipped into a frenzy a minority of Russians.

    You are forgiving roughly 10 mil(oh nooo all the gorillions) Ukrainians slain by these Russians and their various lackeys between 1917 and 1947.

    I don’t forgive anyone responsible for the ones murdered. Nor do I blame those not responsible.

    The Russians can be blamed for passivity. So can non-Galician Ukrainians. All of my Galician relatives of fighting age fought within the UGA after World War I (except for one, who fought for Petliura). None of my central Ukrainian relatives did. My great-grandfather from central Ukraine deserted from the Tsarist army when it disintegrated, came home and watched over his family and homestead. In the 1930s he was dragged our of his home by Communists and shot in a mass grave. It’s the story millions of Ukrainians and Russians. In 1917-1921 only about 250,000 or so of the 25 million Ukrainians from Russian-ruled Ukraine fought in military formations (Petliura, Makhno, Hryhoriv, etc.). In contrast, 2.5 million Galician Ukrainians produced 100,000 soldiers. Little Estonia produced 86,000 soldiers. If Ukrainians from formerly Russian-ruled Ukraine had behaved like Galicians, they would have had about 1 million troops. Bolsheviks maybe would not have taken Ukraine in that case and millions of lives would have been spared. BTW, the total strength of the Polish army that defeated the Bolsheviks was about 1 million.

    Passivity in the face of the Bolsheviks was bad, but it is not the same as support for Bolsheviks. It was stupidity/ignorance and perhaps cowardice, not evil.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    , @Mikhail
  135. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I was speaking of Russian vs German power. Russia probably would have been able to defeat Germany by 1930, given the trajectory in population and industrial growth and military/transportation improvements. Certainly not in 1916.

    You are mentioning other factors. As someone else posted, in 1916 Britain might not have entered the war. And just as Russia was catching up to Germany, so Germany was pulling further ahead of France. Without Britain, Germany likely would have swiftly dispatched France and then turned all of its focus onto Russia. Russia would not have defeated Germany in 1916 in such a contest.

    Of course, in terms of world war outcomes and other countries, who knows what would have happened in 1930. Spooked by a powerful and growing Russian juggernaut which would inevitably threaten its interests in Asia, Britain might have shifted to a German alliance in order to maintain a balance of power.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  136. AP says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    It’s probably just a technical problem.

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  137. @Svidomyatheart

    Why would I ban an ukro-larping amerimutt throwing about treason accusations from the other side of the ocean? https://akarlin.com/comments/

    Idiotic unfunny trolling. I tolerate intelligent trolling, and I tolerate funny trolling, but not both. But if you are neither intriguing us nor entertaining us, then you are just taking up space.

    You’re certainly “amusing”. (For the time being).

    • Replies: @Shortsword
  138. @Anatoly Karlin

    I tolerate intelligent trolling, and I tolerate funny trolling, but not both.

    This reads like you don’t tolerate trolling that is both intelligence and funny. Don’t you mean trolling that is neither funny nor intelligent?

  139. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I was speaking of Russian vs German power. Russia probably would have been able to defeat Germany by 1930, given the trajectory in population and industrial growth and military/transportation improvements. Certainly not in 1916.

    In 1q16, horse power was of greater worth. Napoleon lost in part because of the difficulty in conquering a vast land. As you know, Napoleon had numerous non-French forces as well. In terms of overall quality, Germany had the best forces in WW II. It still lost on account of trying to bite off more than they could chew. Some similarities with WW I.

    BTW, the WW I Western Entente didn’t in overall terms face the Habsburg, German and Ottoman forces in the same way as Russia. The US wasn’t in at the start. Westerncentric and sovok slants have downplayed the Russian role in WW I.

    Of course, in terms of world war outcomes and other countries, who knows what would have happened in 1930. Spooked by a powerful and growing Russian juggernaut which would inevitably threaten its interests in Asia, Britain might have shifted to a German alliance in order to maintain a balance of power.

    Agree seeing how the Brits behaved in 1905 and in 1938.

    You are mentioning other factors. As someone else posted, in 1916 Britain might not have entered the war. And just as Russia was catching up to Germany, so Germany was pulling further ahead of France. Without Britain, Germany likely would have swiftly dispatched France and then turned all of its focus onto Russia. Russia would not have defeated Germany in 1916 in such a contest.

    Reminded of the saying never say if in history. Nonetheless, it’s still interesting to hypothesize. In 1916, Britain might’ve carried on in the same way.

  140. yes im in US I never denied it

    look at my older posts i was quite honest that i do live in the US and plan to repatriate in the future,

    but im no amerimutt(not that there’s anything wrong with that i guess…) even if i was dipped into headfirst into degeneracy i have still retained my ethnicity

    most ukrainans cant really speak English (which i guess protects ..for now)

    in an ironic twist of fate my russian is better than my ukrainian ( thats what happens when kremenchug has russian everywhere, i can speak flawless russian but ukrainian not so much)

    it was funny seeing how riled up Karlin wass…and yes i had that where “your post is awaiting moderation” like when you first join here.. ohh the truth hurts i know

    @AP

    что ты топишь за них и прощаешь?

    русские всегда всегда предадут и убют

    из за таких как ты которые всегда прощают эти орки и и сумели захватить донбасс

    да ничет так убили 9-10 лямов …ну это бывает в других странах ну ничего зато школу вот украинскую русские построили

    чтоб к тебе в дом врвались эти орки котроым ты прощаешь и посадлили твойх родичей по подвалам

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  141. LatW says:

    Whether the red riflemen played a decisive role is hard to tell, “decisive” is a high bar. But they may have played a critical role in some instances such as when Denikin was approaching Moscow in 1919. But they were not alone, there were redguards, red Cossacks. Don’t forget the wild Navy guys running around (matrosi).

    Latvians fought on both sides in the Civil War. There were more on the red side (mercenaries but also a few ideological ones who had been persecuted after the revolution of 1905) but higher quality guys (officers) fought with the Whites.

    One of Latvia’s national heroes, Colonel Fridrih Briedis, an amazing leader and a light hearted and pure human being, decorated with the Order of St George & Order of Vladimir, fought in Prussia & Latvia and later joined an anti-bolshevik org in Russia. He was taken to Butyrki and executed by Latvian chekists. This is how it happens in empires and in civil wars.

    “Colonel Briedis, you keep on living even after your death. And next to the ancient heroes you now stand.”

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @sudden death
  142. @AP

    Nope, just tried posting twice again and still shadowbanned

    thats that part where you how you know you riled up the blog owner

    if anyone doesnt believe me

    AK: Looks like the anti-spam (which I don’t control) was activated. Smart bot. But I’ll let the circus perform.

    [MORE]

  143. LatW says:

    The main reasons for why the Baltic provinces voted for the socialist: confiscation of German owned manors (not pretty), distribution of land, 8 hour work day, end the savage war (men and boys were literally being poisoned with gas).

    Despite the Russification policies that started in the late 19th century in the Baltics (and Finland) and despite the ongoing nation building, there was no ambition for independence yet but for autonomy. The slogan back then was “For a free Latvia within a free Russia” (whatever that means, lol). Later when the right leaning parties saw what Bolshevism means they moved towards independence. The Baltic people built their states based on values that were opposite to Bolshevik. The Independence war was fought against the Bolsheviks in 1918-1920, as they returned and had to be pushed out.

    Btw… the Tsar had a long time Latvian servant who was murdered together with the royal family in the Ipatiev house. He was a tall, blonde guy who got noticed by one of Tsar’s female relatives when he served in the imperial guard. He could have left and fled like so many others did in the royal circles. The royals were saying to their servants “You’re free to go” but he didn’t abandon his duty.

    Given the number of martyrs in the Ipatiev house… how’s that for overrepresented?

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: Rattus Norwegius
  144. @Caspar Von Everec

    You are implying the Americans are „qualitatively superior“ to Soviets. How exactly? Elite unit vs elite, average vs average?

    The casualty ratios at Battle of Bulge/Italian Front/Operation Bagration are comparable. There was a world of difference between Red Army of 1941 vs 44 who had learned lessons from Barbarossa, Winter War, Polish-Soviet War etc.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  145. @LatW

    You know Ukraine started like that too

    we had four Universals ( official proclamation or legal acts in Poland/Ukr)

    the First and up to Third Universal it was all about autonomy within Russia but with our own rights. Like for
    a “free Ukraine within Russia”

    and then finally the Fourth Universal issued in Jan 9 1918 was to break away from Russia and have our own state. Unfortunately that freedom only lasted up until 1921 as the Bolsheviks had reinvaded multiple time and eventually and won

    at least you guys managed to escape the USSR of 20th and 30s and avoid the parts where hell itself opened beneath people’s feet.

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
    , @LatW
  146. @AP

    FFS, with this spamming garbage.

    No point wasting much time other than to repeat:

    [MORE]

    So a “nationalist” movement, whose “military” was so strong that its pseudo-republic(s) lasted shorter than some fishing trips I have gone on, or shorter than some traffic delays……whose history of “independence” includes willingly being a reject of 3 different empires, and willing treated as inferiors of Poles, Austrians, Jews………..whose “history” includes their own people not wanting anything to do with this scum and informing the Soviet authorities about them in the 1950’s ( forcing them to hide in the west)………who Lenin had to use only 2 brain-cells to extinguish their pseudo”republic” without any war, who have centuries of NOT fighting for anything, who had absolutely ZERO to do with the breakup of the Soviet Union like at least the Baltics and some of the kavkaz republics did……….are now having their repeated failure and cultural appropriation misdirected away by a fantasist retard with severe mental problems claiming of some mythical military and fighting powers? LOL

    In 1917-1921 only about 250,000 or so of the 25 million Ukrainians from Russian-ruled Ukraine fought in military formations (Petliura, Makhno, Hryhoriv, etc.).

    Thats what the worst of the worst like you does – you makeup fake backstories giveing fake relatives, then you compound this error by makingup and argument out of flawed reasoning from selective and false reading of Wikipedia – precisely because you have f**k all understanding of the issue from the start.

    This great-grandfather scumbag you are talking of , and almost certainly lying about is either burning in hell where the diseased scum belongs – or he’s turning in his grave in disgust at what is fantasist relative is BSing on. God knows what this fake Galician or “central Ukrainian” prick would think about “typical west Ukrainian culture in this video” post. (Karlin – have a heart and allow this)

    If Ukrainians from formerly Russian-ruled Ukraine had behaved like Galicians

    These “Galicians” – No fighting history, no intellectual history – birthplace of sado-masochism ( that they mass used in the 1940’s)…….no thanks.

    Will there be 60 -80 comments out of 300 on this blog also from you? Seriously WTF?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  147. @LatW

    Later when the right leaning parties saw what Bolshevism means they moved towards independence

    ……and made themselves irrelevant as Latvia, as the other Baltics, became dictatorships by the 1930’s- effectively dissolving all institutions – that then created the perfect legal basis to say that Latvia asked to join the USSR.

    • Replies: @sudden death
  148. @Caspar Von Everec

    It is interesting that Soviets surrendered in droves to the Germans until the US entered the war. After that no more mass surrenders. Most Russians loathed the Stalin regime n did not want to defend it. But once the US entered Russians saw that Stalin could not lose n began fighting to the death, with the commissars back in control threatening the families of any who gave up. A flood of Ford trucks n American boots helped.

    • Replies: @rkka
  149. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Or perhaps simply because no oil to be had in Siberia. OTOH, the Soviet spy Sorge had influence in Tokyo n certainly pushed for attacking anyone but Russia. Funny how it all worked out for Stalin in the long run with the US, Britain, n even Japan making moves that benefited no one but him.

  150. @128

    This was a symptom of a larger disease, like the Maginot line or the failure to push their invasion of Germany in September 1939. As Petain said France was defeated not by the Germans but by the “rot of Marxism.” Russia experienced it. Now the US too has this to look forward to.

  151. @Svidomyatheart

    btw that 20th should say 20s like 1920s…if admin can edit that and delete this post…

  152. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I think that sandwiched between you and Mr, Svidomyatheart, AP has presented a pretty credible and objective story. You rarely are able to present anything nearly as balanced, mostly crazy nonsense. It’s really a shame, because honestly, I do see some intelligence there somewhere? Why cover it up with all of your vitriolic nonsense? 🙁

  153. LatW says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    Ukraine started like that, too

    Yes, our nations have a lot in common, some of the historic parallels are uncannily similar. Our history is not simple, but Ukraine’s is even more complex.
    And, yes, it would’ve been great to have had a similar free republic in Ukraine as we had.

    avoid the parts where hell itself opened beneath people’s feet

    The suffering and sacrifices of your people have been otherworldly. I have often thought of how Latvians were doing well in the 1930s, enjoying the fruits of their labor, while your people were going through the horrors of Holodomor. It’s hard to imagine anything more excruciating than seeing one’s child suffer and wither away day by day..

    I want to be honest & open with you. Latvians were present in Ukraine during the Civil War. Some fought for Ukraine’s freedom. But others led the suppression of anti-Bolshevik uprisings. Their actions, no matter the motivation, were vile and offensive.

    One episode of that time that I often think about is the Battle of Kruty. I’m sure you know, there are many documentaries about it. Young cadets from a school where they were taught in Ukrainian for the first time tried to repel a Bolshevik attack. This attack was led by three men, two Russian and one Latvian. The young cadets were outnumbered but they kept standing and kept fighting. I wish somebody had made sure that this Latvian officer had not been there.

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  154. @Sin City Milla

    You cannot underestimate two things that motivated Hokushin-ron,
    Japan’s fear of Bolshevist takeover— the whole China war escalation was mainly to prevent mainland E. Asia from turning into Soviet client. (Eventually China turned commie but not Soviet client)

    The geopolitical importance of Manchuria and the means that Japs were willing to go to defend. In the last days of the war before Soviet entry, they always thought they can hold out on the home islands and Manchuria. As so it happens, 3 years after, Manchuria would be staging ground for CCP commies in their decisive Liaoshen Campaign.

    Also Germans walked over them by not giving heads up for Molotov-Ribbentrop and Barbarossa. That discouraged further cooperation. They remember Bismarck’s pro-Russian attitude that helped secure flank for Russian eastward expansion, eventually leading to Russo-Japanese War.

  155. Pericles says:
    @RSDB

    Changed words, mainly, though I think the meaning has drifted somewhat. And then there is the lameness.

    Vår Fader, du som är i himlen.
    Låt ditt namn bli helgat.
    Låt ditt rike komma.
    Låt din vilja ske, på jorden så som i himlen.
    Ge oss idag det bröd vi behöver.
    Och förlåt oss våra skulder,
    liksom vi har förlåtit dem som står i skuld till oss.
    Och utsätt oss inte för prövning,
    utan rädda oss från det onda.
    Ditt är riket,
    din är makten och äran,
    i evighet.
    Amen.

    • Thanks: RSDB
  156. Pericles says:
    @Simple Handle

    Trotsky led the way.

    Facing military defeats in mid-1918, Trotsky introduced increasingly severe penalties for desertion, insubordination, and retreat. He organized the formation of the infamous “blocking units”, special squads stationed behind the front-line troops, whose role it was to summarily gun down all soldiers suspected of desertion and unauthorized retreat.[12] As he later wrote in his autobiography [13]:

    An army cannot be built without reprisals. Masses of men cannot be led to death unless the army command has the death penalty in its arsenal. So long as those malicious tailless apes that are so proud of their technical achievements — the animals that we call men — will build armies and wage wars, the command will always be obliged to place the soldiers between the possible death in the front and the inevitable one in the rear.

    These reprisals included the death penalty for deserters and “traitors”, as well as using former officers’ families as hostages against possible defections[14]:

    […] commissars are obligated to keep track of [former] officers’ families and appoint them to positions of responsibility when it is possible the seize their families in case of treason.

    […]I ordered you to establish the family status of former officers among command personnel and to inform each of them by signed receipt that treachery or treason will cause the arrest of their families and that, therefore, they are each taking upon themselves responsibility for their families. That order is still in force. Since then there have been a number of cases of treason by former officers, yet not in a single case, as far as I know, has the family of the traitor been arrested, as the registration of former officers has evidently not been carried out at all. Such a negligent approach to so important a matter is totally impermissible.[15]

    Trotsky also threatened to execute unit commanders and commissars whose units either deserted or retreated without permission. (Trotsky later argued that these threats were either taken out of context or were used to scare his subordinates into action and were not necessarily meant to be carried out.) Since Red Army commissars were often prominent Bolsheviks, it sometimes led to clashes between them and Trotsky.

    Though he and Trotsky were later to become mortal enemies, Stalin was influenced by Trotsky’s use of disciplinary measures, and expanded the use of blocking units well into World War II.[16]

    Apparently it was difficult to make the tailless apes fight for the cause.

    https://archive.is/q7scA

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @Simple Handle
  157. @Svidomyatheart

    русские всегда всегда предадут и убют

    Чувак, не мы такие, жизнь такая. А жизнь такая потому что мир такой. Я в натуре говорю, бывают ситуации и похуже Донбасса.

    В общем всё будет хорошо дружок.

    Главное верить в любовь…

    🙂

  158. @LatW

    Of course your people were not the epitome of pure evil. Those were tough times for everyone involved. May they all rest in peace and forgive each other.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @LatW
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  159. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    The Russians can be blamed for passivity. So can non-Galician Ukrainians. All of my Galician relatives of fighting age fought within the UGA after World War I (except for one, who fought for Petliura). None of my central Ukrainian relatives did. My great-grandfather from central Ukraine deserted from the Tsarist army when it disintegrated, came home and watched over his family and homestead. In the 1930s he was dragged our of his home by Communists and shot in a mass grave. It’s the story millions of Ukrainians and Russians. In 1917-1921 only about 250,000 or so of the 25 million Ukrainians from Russian-ruled Ukraine fought in military formations (Petliura, Makhno, Hryhoriv, etc.). In contrast, 2.5 million Galician Ukrainians produced 100,000 soldiers. Little Estonia produced 86,000 soldiers. If Ukrainians from formerly Russian-ruled Ukraine had behaved like Galicians, they would have had about 1 million troops. Bolsheviks maybe would not have taken Ukraine in that case and millions of lives would have been spared. BTW, the total strength of the Polish army that defeated the Bolsheviks was about 1 million.

    Passivity in the face of the Bolsheviks was bad, but it is not the same as support for Bolsheviks. It was stupidity/ignorance and perhaps cowardice, not evil.

    Perhaps more like 60,000-75,000 active regular fighters among the Gaaican Ukrainians, whose army came under the command of the Whites after getting word of Petliura agreeing that all of Galicia should go to Poland. Petliura did this on account of his limited support in Ukraine.

    Following the Russian Civil War, many Petliura supporters ended up in Polish ruled Galicia. Conversely, many Galician Ukrainian Army personnel ended up staying in the newly created USSR. These facets partly explain how pro-Russian sentiment in Galicia declined.

    Hrushevsky and Vinnichenko went to the Soviet side. Vinnichenko later recanted. Out of curiosity, do you give him a pass? Hrushevsky died in the mid-1920s. Svidos say he was having second thoughts.

    • Replies: @AP
  160. dfordoom says: • Website
    @216

    It appears that communism is most popular in “post-industrial” societies. Its fusion with technocracy and urbanity has brought it back from the dead in the West.

    In what “post-industrial” societies is actual communism popular today? Are we seeing people taking to the street demanding the dictatorship of the proletariat? Are we seeing people taking to the street demanding the nationalisation of the banks? Are we seeing people taking to the street demanding the confiscation of the wealth of billionaires? Or demonstrating in favour of the collectivisation of agriculture? Are we seeing demonstrations in favour of land reform?

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  161. @Pericles

    So long as those malicious tailless apes that are so proud of their technical achievements — the animals that we call men

    You have to love uncle Leyba’s realism. Of course this realism did not save him in the end.

    [MORE]

  162. LatW says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Yes, very tough & chaotic. Thank you for your kindness.

    And thank you for standing up for our ancestral faith on another thread – you did it very intelligently, gracefully but ardently at the same time.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
  163. @LatW

    Yeah they’d cordon off villages and not let you leave them but you are well aware of that.

    And I am glad you guys are doing better and better and that Bolshevism didnt reach you until the 40s and wasnt able to do as much permanent damage as here. The Eastern parts here are probably permanently “corrupted”.

    They didnt just target Ukraine itself they targeted Kuban too which was full of ethnic Ukrainians, but not anymore though they are forever lost, the Ukrainians there have all but been destroyed in the famines of 20s and 30s,others assimilated, id say half of Ukraine has been physically and culturally destroyed. In less than 90 years Russia has consumed all of them, assimilated into that disgusting writhing mass, to put it in American term they’re “Russian whites” now basically

    And, unfortunately, we wont know whenever it was done to target for modernity or to root out Ukrainian nationalism or to make the area a clear slate for the Soviet man unless Russia opens up its archives(which it wont)

    In only a few short decades Russians with their Lenin and Stalin destroyed the original 1000 years of culture and latifunda agriculture in Ukraine, . Kind of like Mao also did with his Red Guards as well.
    So..take notes anyone, this can happen very swiftly, culture is a very delicate matter especially when its facing something as destructive as a Leninist state, and it was Russians with their grubby hands who have inflicted more damage to Slavdom and Eastern Slavdom in particular more than anyone else in the 20th century.

    Funny story about OUN and Ukrainian nationalism, so you had these OUN emissaries infiltrate East Ukraine and other areas that were more affected by Bolshevism and attempt to recruit the Eastern Ukrainians into their ranks..They couldn’t. As in literally. Just one simple decade of Stalinism had completely mindfucked the people there.

    if I recall you were the only person Ive known so far that was interested in figures like Yurii Lypa, that guy was quite the radical, kind of like a lot of Finno Ugric nationalist figures ive been reading about on twitter who called for complete removal of Russians from their lands. Yuri Lupa also called for complete removal of Russians from Ukraine. I know Latvians arent Finno Ugric but ill just lump Latvia Estonia and Lithuania because I unfortunately dont know much about Latvia

    And funny, since I posted that rantpost and since I actually follow Karlin and went to check twitter ..lo and behold there it was in my feed… and at least one Russian called for my execution..nothing changes for these NKVD/Cheka progeny uhh its like

    >Invades your country killing roughly a million in the process by 1922
    Hhhey we’re brothers right?
    >Confiscates all your stuff and cordons you off where you cant leave at all
    Dude we are friends its OK look I just built some schools and installed telephone poles for you (lol)
    >Settles in a shitton of minorities consisting of various mystery meat, NKVD spawn, colonists and others, etc
    WE chill rite?
    >Kills most of your intelligentsia and forcefully deports others to settle and colonize frozen wasteland places like Kazakhstan and Siberia
    U Ok bro u seem upset why dont u like me?
    >Starts WW2 uses you as fodder
    Are you ok m8 we good?
    >Starts another famine relatively small tho but to quite literally feed former Axis nations occupied by USSR who just a few years ago were burning people alive and skinning them and all that in Nazi Germany occupied territories(because all these new commie countries must be propped up somehow winning hearts and minds and all that)
    Wwwhats wrong m8?
    >Massive poverty and not that high a living standard or many opportunities when young but finally the nightmare is over for everyone and we all part our separate ways

    >Starts another war, annexes part of your country, loots everything that isnt nailed down and calls you a “fascist”
    And then the usual..brother are you ok?

    Can someone tell me how to do others coexist with these people???

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  164. @LatW

    One of Latvia’s national heroes, Colonel Fridrih Briedis, an amazing leader and a light hearted and pure human being, decorated with the Order of St George & Order of Vladimir, fought in Prussia & Latvia and later joined an anti-bolshevik org in Russia.

    btw, “briedis” is the naming of the moose in Lithuanian language. Do the Latvians name moose the same way too?

    • Replies: @LatW
  165. @Gerard-Mandela

    Living in irrelevant dictatorship surely beats starving to death in relevant dictatorship though 😉

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
  166. LatW says:

    Svidomyatheart,

    Yes, they used to literally come into houses and open cupboards, drawers, take everything.

    Indeed, the Ukrainian space used to be larger than now, Kuban’, plus Slobodanschina was more Ukrainian. It’s a lesson, unfortunately. It’s kind of like when they deported the most productive Baltic people in their prime and then complained that there’s not enough labor so that they have to send in people from the east.

    Yes, I’m interested in Yurii Lipa, his persona and how he was affected by the times. There’s not much material available. I’d have to order his books. I read his Black Sea doctrine online. Combined with the spiritual inheritance of Knyaz Svyatoslav it’s about moving the geopolitical vector towards Ukraine, centering there and creating a North to South axis. It’s hypothetical of course as the whole area is now covered by Russian missile trajectories. I want to find his poems.. Of course, his work is not some incredible height of intellectualism but it’s interesting from the POV of that time and how Ukraine’s place was perceived. Have you read his books? It was horrific what happened to him.

    No worries at all about lumping the Baltics together, we’re very similar. Are you one of those Ukrainians who looks down on Finno Ugrics? Lol, just joking. 🙂 Estonians are actually closer to Latvians than Finns, it’s just the language is Finnic.

    The “brother are you ok” just shows their aloofness. It’s a sign of a great, expansive nation. They view space differently. How to live with that? Either separate or ignore and be friends. But Ukraine doesn’t have those luxurious options right now. 🙁 the only option is to try to grow stronger. But at least re-Ukrainiazation is happening at least to some extent.

  167. @sudden death

    Living in irrelevant dictatorship surely beats starving to death in relevant dictatorship though

    How was Soviet Union a “dictatorship” ? Complete nonsense. It produced the most independently minded, courageous men and women in history. With all the activities it gave to kids in social, cultural and sporting/adventure – to have a childhood in Soviet Union was a million times superior to anywhere else on the planet.

    Compare this to the dead, lazy plankton in the US, under a pseudo-2party system being manipulated into what to think all the time ( outside of US gun laws and principle of second amendment, which I admire). Look at their very recent history to Catholics,Blacks and Japanese…but their total inbreeding and ineptitude against the mafia for 50 years

    Anyway, what makes you think Lithuanians would have starved in the second half of the 1920’s or 1930’s?

    Russia – just as France, India, China,UK, Ireland, Sweden and nearly everywhere in the world has suffered severe famines during the centuries you dummy. After the war, you may have noticed no “starving to death”

    As far as I can see the only country or lands to escape this historically have been the Germanic lands.

    Soviet Union was the genesis of much of the concept of “Human rights” anyway..

    The truth is ( which Karlin is too foolish or too blind to see) is that there is no such thing as anti-Sovietism outside of some good Tsarists.it’s just anti-Russianism from all these loser countries jealous of Russia overpowering them and being a civilisational success along time before the USSR existed.

    Alot of the anti-Soviet BS is just Soros propaganda – as evidenced by the World Series, Coca-cola, William Randolph Hearst production called the ‘Golodmor” – quite literally promoted by Banderite excrement and western Ukrainians who have absolutely no connection to that event.

  168. @Svidomyatheart

    And funny, since I posted that rantpost and since I actually follow Karlin and went to check twitter ..lo and behold there it was in my feed… and at least one Russian called for my execution..nothing changes for these NKVD/Cheka progeny uhh its like

    Well you were complaining about your post not appearing and accusing me of censorship, so I even took the extra trouble of reposting it to my Twitter so that it gets the extended readership it deserves, why so butthurt now?

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  169. @Bashibuzuk

    Not evil, just chutzpah the likes of which will leave any Jew smoking nervously in a corner.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @EldnahYm
  170. rkka says:
    @Sin City Milla

    It is interesting that Soviets surrendered in droves to the Germans until the US entered the war. After that no more mass surrenders.

    That’s because the offensive power of the German Army had been wrecked in ’41, by the horrific infantry casualties the Red Army had inflicted.

    In his war diary entry for 19 July 1941, Colonel-General Franz Halder, Chief of the German General Staff, noted a captured Soviet order to make attacks splitting German armor from German infantry. That wasn’t working at that point, but as German infantry casualties mounted, the ability of the infantry to seal off cauldrons created by the Panzers declined to nothing.

    Of the 3.3 million German troops committed to Barbarossa, only about a million were infantry. The German Army was a modern army. It generated and precisely controlled prodigious combat power. Its radio nets were dense, allowing the small unit leaders of that million infantrymen to direct powerful supporting fires. This was because Germany had had a globe-leading Wireless industry for a couple generations. The Russians/Soviets, not so much.

    But as casualties mounted, the German ability to take ground diminished. So when Halder notes on 30 August ’41 that his troops had suffered 390k mostly infantry casualties, that’s only 11% of the force, but it might be 25-30% of the infantry. And it only got worse from there.

    So when Halder was surveying the state of his forces in the East in early May ’42, he can see he’s short 625k riflemen. The infantry divisions of AG South aren’t too badly off, but AG Center is down to about 15% infantry strength, and AG North is down to about 35%. This is why the Germans only did 1 big offensive in ’42, because the available infantry replacements could bring only AG South to a state fit for renewed offensive operations.

    The rest of the German infantry branch was wrecked.

    So the German infantry branch limped on for the rest of the war, a sad, tattered shadow of what it had been on 22 June 1941. And that’s what the US & British armies met and still had a lot of trouble with.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  171. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    He’s kind of like the second bookend to Gerard here and helps to balance things out, kind of. 🙂

    Parts of his story need to be told…

  172. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Perhaps more like 60,000-75,000 active regular fighters among the Gaaican Ukrainians, whose army came under the command of the Whites after getting word of Petliura agreeing that all of Galicia should go to Poland

    It mobilised 100,000 men, at one time it had a strength of 70,000-75,000.

    The shattered remnants, suffering from typhus (perhaps 10,000, I could be wrong) under their commander Tarnavsky accepted Denikin’s command which provided them with much-needed medicine from the Entente.

    Following the Russian Civil War, many Petliura supporters ended up in Polish ruled Galicia

    No. They moved to Volhynia where they had a patron in the Polish governor Jozewski:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_J%C3%B3zewski

    Jozewski was an ethnic Pole born in Kiev and had been in Petliura’s government. When he governed Volhynia he attempted to foster a pro-Polish Petliurist nationalist project, a counterpoint to anti-Polish Galicia. It backfired. Banderists from Galicia infiltrated Volhynia and here they struggled with the Petliurists.

    When Warsaw got a more anti-Ukrainian government, Jozewski and the Petliurists were replaced by a brutal persecutory anti-Ukrainian administration. The Volhynians, who thanks in part to Jozewski and Petliurist’s efforts were now fairly nationalist (and had some Banderist influence), reacted to Polish persecution by becoming murderous. They would slaughter much of the local Polish population in 1943-1944.

    Conversely, many Galician Ukrainian Army personnel ended up staying in the newly created USSR

    False. Very few did. A total of 5,000 joined the Bolsheviks under duress, most of these deserted and returned to Galicia:

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CR%5CE%5CRedUkrainianGalicianArmy.htm

    Ironically of the commanders who joined the Reds, Alfred Bizanz, would escape to the West and later help lead the 14th Waffen SS Division.

    Most veterans of the Ukrainian Galician Army returned to Galicia. Some of them formed the UVO which became the OUN. Some entered legitimate politics. The ones who went into exile mostly went to Prague, Vienna or Berlin, not the USSR. A rare exception was Petro Franko, son of the writer Ivan Franko. He moved to Kharkiv.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  173. @Anatoly Karlin

    just chutzpah

    From what I read about the topic many years ago, I derived the impression that the Latvian riflemen were seen as ruthlessly effective, very process driven, and emotionally cold.

    Of course they were self-serving, but not like the Bolshevik Jews, there was no emotional component to the Latvian mercenary involvement in the Revolution and Civil War. No desire of vengeance, no gloating about the demise of Tsarist Russia. Perhaps they exhibited more emotional involvement when they liquidated the Baltic German landlords back home ?

    I don’t think we might call this “chutzpah “, more like a form of social autism perhaps. Perhaps an example of the HBD impacts.

    Interestingly, on the opposite extrême of the political divide, the White Czech probably behaved in a similar manner.

    Just my 2 cents.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  174. @Bashibuzuk

    I am more talking about the gumption of modern Latvians portraying themselves as historical victims and demanding reparations from Russia, having voted 70% for the Bolsheviks (Russian Empire average: 24%), having brutally put down ethnic Russian resistance to Bolshevism in the Russian heartlands in 1918, and then having enthusiastically helped the Nazis genocide almost all of their Jews.

    Modern leftist Jews at least have the honesty and gumption to own and take pride in the murder of Nicholas II in the context of settling a blood feud. Unlike Latvians, they don’t impudently deny their partial complicity in the Bolshevik project. Even though back then, there was the occasional Jewish hero (e.g. Leonid Kannegisser), can one name any comparable Latvian equivalents?

    Interestingly, on the opposite extrême of the political divide, the White Czech probably behaved in a similar manner.

    Czechs generally made the correct choices during 20C and God refrained from seriously punishing them as he did most of the rest of East-Central Europe.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @AP
  175. @Anatoly Karlin

    Indeed, Baltics in general are good at the “dindu nuffin” attitude when it comes to the atrocities commited by their ethnic groups in the last century.

    They are also likely to play the victim role when it serves their goals, but without much pompe and fanfare.

    Again, they do it in a calm, cold and focused manner : no screeching one would expect from a Stalinist or a Svidomite. Quite self-serving, but in a less boisterous and more logical manner than some eastern-southern ethnic groups (Jews / Arabs / Indians etc. ).

    In general I find that Baltics have an interesting psychotype and an interesting distribution of this attitude, where Estonians are probably the most marked case, Lithuanians the least marked and Latvians somewhere in between. I have also felt something similar a couple of times in Helsinki.

    Interestingly, northern Russians also display this type of more cold and logical, less emotional self-centered behavior, which makes them somewhat different from the southern Russians and Ukrainians who are always quite emotional about their self-serving aims. Perhaps the ancestry of Ugric Y haplogroup N people manifests itself that way.

    Sobyanin comes to mind: the “ruthless Ugric cool”…

    Of course I am being only half serious when I write all this, but it might be interesting to do some genomic HBD analysis along these lines. In case we optimize for a “хладнокровный космический хуторянин” psychotype in the future, to live somewhere the Oort Cloud.

    🙂

    • Replies: @LatW
  176. Exile says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    13 still do 50. Biology, genetics and race are real. IQ is real. Rushton was right. So was Putnam’s research – if not his strained interpretations.

    Pretending Blacks and Whites are just varicolored blank slate meat puppets isn’t real.

  177. Nodwink says:
    @anyone with a brain

    80IQ Slav barbarians want to go back to the “good old days” of being illiterate turnip farmers. This is true of someone like Karlin (ignore the transhumanist horseshit, this bloke is only capable of using a pitchfork and wheelbarrow) and other Slav crypto-fascists.

  178. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I am more talking about the gumption of modern Latvians portraying themselves as historical victims and demanding reparations from Russia, having voted 70% for the Bolsheviks (Russian Empire average: 24%), having brutally put down ethnic Russian resistance to Bolshevism in the Russian heartlands in 1918

    Agreed that these factors ought to disqualify reparations to Latvia. Though, given the fact that Bolshevism didn’t come to Russia through the will of the people as reflected in something like elections, reparations by the Russian people would be unjust in any case. Communist Party and its remaining assets might be another story…

    Even though back then, there was the occasional Jewish hero (e.g. Leonid Kannegisser), can one name any comparable Latvian equivalents?

    LatW mentioned this guy, who heroically refused to abandon the Romanovs and was martyred alongside them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Trupp

    [MORE]

    Aloise (Alexei) Yegorovich Trupp (Russian: Алоизий (Алексей) Егорович Трупп, Latvian: Aloizs Lauris Trūps, April 8, 1856 – July 17, 1918), was the Head Footman in the household of Tsar Nicholas II of Russia. Trupp was born in Vitebsk Governorate, Russian Empire (now Madona Municipality, Latvia). He was killed with the Romanov family at Ekaterinburg following the Russian Revolution of 1917.

    Together with the Royal Family, Trupp was canonized as a martyr by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia in 1981. He was a Roman Catholic, not Russian Orthodox.[1]

    The Moscow Patriarchate canonized the Royal Family as Passion Bearers in 2000, but they did not canonize Trupp.

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  179. LatW says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Perhaps the ancestry of Y haplogroup N manifests this way

    There is a gene called Lw which is present in the Balts and Vologda Russians, as well as Poles (possibly Yotvingians or Prussians?).

    Yes, Northern Russians have this temperament, too. One time a friend had somebody over from St Pete for hockey and later at dinner he sat all evening completely quiet and emotionless, more tranquil than an Estonian.

    Typically normal Russians are more extrovert. I actually like that Ukrainians are a bit more passionate.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  180. @AP

    I think all the populations in that region were both guilty and victims of exactions and atrocities. Singling out any ethnic group as worse than others or better than others is useless. We’re all human and capable of both better and worse behaviors. I am glad I did not live at the time and didn’t have to have to choose among the many questionable options they had to choose from.

    It is to be noted that Russians usually do not display resentment against other ethnic groups. Russians are capable of getting along relatively well will with a wide assortment of cultures and psychotypes. Perhaps it is somewhat difficult for other ethnic groups to appreciate this quality of the Russian mind…

    • Replies: @AP
  181. @LatW

    Balts and Vologda Russians

    Yes Vologda Russians and Pomor were those whom I was thinking about. Both descendants of Novgorod folks and local Fenno-Ugric tribes. Also Novgorod people were mainly Wends with Ugric and Norse admixture.

    Makes sense.

    I enjoy Ukrainian mentality too, I have had no problem whatsoever with the many Ukrainians that I have met and I have some Ukrainian ancestry.

  182. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Singling out any ethnic group as worse than others or better than others is useless

    I too oppose collective guilt, particularly because Soviet crimes were not the product of collective action.

    It is to be noted that Russians usually do not display resentment against other ethnic groups

    Well, Poles, Dutch neighbors resent Germans much more than vice versa.

    We’re all human and capable of both better and worse behaviors. I am glad I did not live at the time and didn’t have to have to choose among the many questionable options they had to choose from

    I like to think that neither of us would have made such choices, as were made by sadistic Chekists etc. None of my ancestors did.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  183. @AP

    My ancestors did not fight in the Civil War.They were not part of anything associated with the NKVD, they were regular soldiers and officers in the Red Army during the WW2. They fought in Russia proper, did not fight outside its boundaries, so I would be very surprised if they had anything to do with any exactions against civilians. When I discussed war with them, they were proud of the their contributions to the Soviet victory, but had no hatred whatsoever against German, Hungarian and Finnish troops that they came to fight against.

  184. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    It mobilised 100,000 men, at one time it had a strength of 70,000-75,000.

    Their actual maximum raw numbers (in terms of fighting men being able to do such without being called) was in the 60,000- 75,000 range.

    The shattered remnants, suffering from typhus (perhaps 10,000, I could be wrong) under their commander Tarnavsky accepted Denikin’s command which provided them with much-needed medicine from the Entente.

    The Galician Ukrainian Army en masse came under the command of the Whites, out of displeasure with Petliura’s alliance with Pilsudski that conditionally gave Poland all former Habsburg parts of what later came into the Ukrainian SSR.

    The Whites treated the Galician Ukrainian Army as a foreign force under the Whites’ command. No diktat was made to the Galician Ukrainian Army on the future status of former Habsburg ruled land desired by Ukrainian nationalists.

    False. Very few did. A total of 5,000 joined the Bolsheviks under duress, most of these deserted and returned to Galicia:

    According to that link that number was what was left of that force. Good reason to fact check further. Without quoting verbatim, I recall Mr. Hack referencing Magosci saying that a good number of Galician Ukrainian Army personnel ended up staying in the USSR.

    On another matter, there doesn’t seem to be any disagreement that a good number of Petliura’s forces ended up in Polish ruled territory that later became part of the Ukrainian SSR.

  185. @Pericles

    “Apparently it was difficult to make the … fight for the cause.”

    Anatoly seems motivated. Vladimir also finds no fault with those events.

    Thank you for that link; Considering the source of that, can you imagine how much worse it must have been?

  186. EldnahYm says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I can’t imagine Latvians shaking down foreign governments/banks demanding payment for land they never owned, money from accounts that weren’t theirs, or art deals which failed to make a profit during the Great Depression.

  187. @Znzn

    Germany’s economy was arguably more efficient and had a more solid industrial base than UK and France in 1914

    Germany was poorer than Britain and certainly didn’t have a larger industrial base than France and Britain combined.

    its society was also more militarized than the UK

    Perhaps, but less militarized than France. Also it’s a bit misleading to compare the two in such a way, as British military spending was concentrated on the navy, which is often less visible than the army, but military it is.

    arguably militarizing the German civilian economy was easier than doing the same for the British and French economy.

    Why? Also did this supposed advantage cancel out the effects of the blockade and the resulting dramatic drop in the German and Austro-Hungarian economic outputs?

  188. I only got slightly irritated at the likes of AP and Mr.Hack who spit and defile the graves of millions of Ukrainians just to please Russians, prostrating and groveling before them.

    For Akarlin he is a Russian, it makes sense, he keeps reassuring himself that the Revolution wasn’t the Russians fault, it was the Jews…oh no wait it was the Chinese…no wait it was the Latvians and now even the Poles. He just cant reconcile that someone with 100 +IQ or whatever(as if iq even matters) can fall prey to fucking Bolshevism( and yes, you literally have to be subhuman to fall for Bolshevism).

    But Mr.Hack too??typical Mr.Hack conversation

    Oh thank you Mr. Russian for killing millions of Ukrainians in every single way imaginable you truly are my greatest ally, it wasnt your fault you just didnt know any better, its ok you’re one of the nice guys, dont pay attention to that Ukrainian guy he is a meanie

    Lets do some first grade math, 2+2=4.

    Lets have some political analogy examples to 2 +2.

    America is the Great Satan yes its fucking obvious i dont need be a political expert to see that.

    But whats also fucking obvious is that it is Russia that turns Communist and begins to spread its pozz and chaos all around itself(just like America does it now)

    I mean look at the Russians, majority of them still celebrate their Lenins and Stalins and Lenin statues stand tall in almost every Russian city . Its mostly the ones that sit on chans and twitter that are westernized dont (but those are the minority).

    Again, ultimately this is a Who? Whom? question. One of us must win this fight, and last time we attempted to have peaceful negotiations with Moscow in 1921 have resulted in what you see today. There cannot be any friendship or appeasement. Need to act more like Poles and Balts and less like Belarusians.

    @Akarlin
    You made fun of me speaking Russian as if you had won but I wouldnt think like that.
    You know I used to have blond hair when I was younger but it turned darker as I got older so I dont quite look like a Northern Russian but you still cant tell me apart from an average Russian, im as R1A as they come. Unlike many Ukrainians I dont have a Ukrainian H accent, I can blend in with a Russian easily, all I gotta do is change my last name. I even went into some random Russian nationalist discord once(they were spamming the link). It was completely useless and they were discussing useless stuff but when they asked me some questions I just said I was a Russian and they believed me.

    Unlike you, Akarlin if a number of Russian nationalists see you, first thing they will think is you’re some sort of a rehabilitated Caucasian Mafiosi or a half Chechen working for the FSB to bust nationalist groups unless they know you personally or read your blog.

    Im sure Russia has failsafes to prevent things of this nature where they keep track of ethnicity and the propiska system, but it was so easy for people like me to infiltrate, and there are millions like me in Ukraine. Ukrainians speaking Russian should definitely be used for more malicious purposes.

    Changing the subject,

    Everyone has scores to settle and designs on Russians. From Chinese to ZOGUSA to Turks to all those Finno Ugrics. This is only the beginning. You dont know what can of worms you had opened up when you invaded. But for now we just sit and wait and let others handle it.

    Turks in the future will only grow restless as it is their nature they will revert back to their original status of NeoOttomanism . Just because he put on a suit he will remain a Turk. Maybe ZOGUSA will also be brazen enough to bring you Russians down.

    But so far, hey even Donbass is turning out just fine, those Russian squatters living there, Russian mercs and marauders have mostly wrecked and looted their homes in Donbass. Other Russian’s homes.

  189. @songbird

    Not that it detracts from your point but amazingly, SK TFR has plumbed new depths since then, making 1.1 seem high.

    Last year was 0.86 and this year based off of January will be even lower closer to 0.80 – it’s like watching a car-crash in slow motion at the national level. Even natives Spaniards and Italians at 1.25-1.3 seem healthy in comparison

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @songbird
  190. @Svidomyatheart

    Why aren’t you fighting in Donbass ? You could start your great revenge against the evil Russkies there. The Azov battalion is always recruiting. The only problem is that at least a third of it is ethnic Russian neonazi fighters, but just ignore it. And ignore the fact that the majority of pro-Russian Donbass militias are local people who happen to be Ukrainian/Southern Russian (the difference between the two is nearly inexistant). But do not burden yourself with these useless details, just go and fight. Haters gotta hate, fighters gotta fight. You are clearly a hater, but are you also a fighter?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @LatW
  191. @Pumblechool

    They will be healed from their bourgeois lack of reproductive stamina by their Best Korean Juiche brothers. All these cute SK chicks will be made second or third wives to the rugged and callous Nork warriors. The faggoty SK boy bands will be sent to re-education camps.

    [MORE]

    The unified Korean nation will heal itself and will wield the nuclear sword while carrying the digital shield. A glorious sight…

  192. @Pericles

    (The modern version is lame, btw.)

    But it sounds cool when Sabaton sings it, at least to American ears.

  193. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Better lucky than good.

    The Germans deliberately emphasized action over inaction in their doctrine. “When in doubt, attack.” Most of the time it worked, and even when it didn’t, it rarely ended in catastrophe, just some setback, because their enemies lacked the flexibility and quick decision-making processes to take advantage of German weaknesses and overextension before the Germans could fix the situation.

    So what you perceive as excessive risk taking was basically the essence of German tactical and operational art, and their track record against lots of different enemies shows that it usually worked, and when it didn’t, then nothing else would have worked either.

    I would say it wasn’t the Germans who took excessive operational and tactical risks, rather their enemies were overcautious and inflexible.

    The strategic level is a different question, but that was mostly the responsibility of the political leadership, basically Hitler. On the level of grand strategy the idea to attack whenever possible led to the creation of a coalition enormously more powerful than Germany and thus the eventual inevitable defeat of Nazi Germany. But that’s a different story.

  194. @Svidomyatheart

    You made fun of me speaking Russian as if you had won but I wouldnt think like that.

    It wasn’t my comment, it was Russian nationalists laughing at you (a lolcow posting his L’s).

    … but it was so easy for people like me to infiltrate, and there are millions like me in Ukraine.

    By… joining some random Discord group? We have a true Stierlitz on our hands!

    … Russian mercs and marauders have mostly wrecked and looted their homes in Donbass. Other Russian’s homes.

    Which begs the question of why you’re so obsessed with getting it back, if its full of Russians. Not that they want that, according to opinion polls.

    • Replies: @AP
  195. @Bashibuzuk

    Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, Daniel Chieh
  196. Mr. Hack says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    I only got slightly irritated at the likes of AP and Mr.Hack who spit and defile the graves of millions of Ukrainians just to please Russians, prostrating and groveling before them…But Mr.Hack too??typical Mr.Hack conversation

    “Oh thank you Mr. Russian for killing millions of Ukrainians in every single way imaginable you truly are my greatest ally, it wasnt your fault you just didnt know any better, its ok you’re one of the nice guys, dont pay attention to that Ukrainian guy he is a meanie ”

    I think that you’ve got me mixed-ip with somebody else? If not, please include a direct quote of mine when trying to characterize my opinions or when besmearching my reputation. Also, I think that you’re new to this blog and have missed a lot of interesting discussions. I continually harangue AK for his support of the Triune theory, that is really nothing more than an endorsement of Russian imperialism and heavy handed treatment of Ukraine. I’ve even gone to to task with AP, pointing out that he’s too hard on the OUN/UPA movement, criticising it through the glasses of a modern observer, not seeing it in the context of its own time and giving it enough credit for the fact that an independent Ukraine exists today.

    As far as not exclusively blaming the Russians 100%, or the Jews or the Latvians, for horrible atrocities like the Holodomor, I try to take a more balanced approach including the realities of the times into account. My poor mother lived through the Holodomor as a child. She told me on several occasions that “there were plenty of our own [Ukrainians] that were involved in the confiscation of foodstuffs too, that resulted in untold deaths.

    As far as trying to keep good, friendly relations and lines of communication open with the Russophiles that frequent this blogsite, that’s a natural outcome of my Christian beliefs. Russians and Ukrainians need to learn to get along and not constantly be at each others throats, for the benefit of the following generations. Ukrainians and Poles have had equally horrendous historical encounters and are learning how to coexist, why can’t Ukrainians and Russians?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  197. @dfordoom

    What would nationalization of the banks do for racial justice? Or transgenders? What kind of nonsense are you talking about?

    We stand for equality! That is to say, equality of filthy rich Goldman bankers and their token black colleagues in the boardroom. And the hating of white trash. If that’s not good enough equality for you, you should lose your job.

  198. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    By… joining some random Discord group? We have a true Stierlitz on our hands!

    He may have a point in that some POS who wanted to hit civilian targets in Russia could escape detection or suspicion in a way that a Caucasian couldn’t.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  199. AP says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    I only got slightly irritated at the likes of AP and Mr.Hack who spit and defile the graves of millions of Ukrainians just to please Russians, prostrating and groveling before them

    Perhaps you are trolling, but what specific statements have I made that “defiled” the graves of millions of Ukrainians or that have involved “grovelling” before Russians?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
  200. @AP

    Of course it might happen. But the POS need not being an ethnic Ukrainian, a Russian neonazi would do the job. Recently a gang of teenage neonazi LARPers have been arrested in Gelendzhik and Yaroslavl. They received information and ideological motivation from their Ukrainian colleagues affiliated with M8L8TH and MKУ (Маниакальный Клуб Убийц, a Kharkov Skinhead offshoot of the Misanthropic Division). Basically from people we have mentioned while discussing on the thread about the Left Hand Path associations among the Ukrainian and Russian Far Right ultras and their colleagues in the WN international.

    https://ria.ru/amp/20210319/fsb-1601924144.html

  201. @AP

    Our Svidomite friend thinks that being thoughtful, balanced, measured and logical in one’s comments is betraying Ukraine. He is somewhat unhinged.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    , @AltanBakshi
  202. songbird says:
    @Pumblechool

    SK TFR has plumbed new depths since then, making 1.1 seem high. Last year was 0.86 and this year based off of January will be even lower closer to 0.80

    That’s curious. I used macrotrends.net. They give:
    1.089 for 2021

    I thought that meant there had been an increase, but I see:
    1.096 for 2020

    No idea, what accounts for the discrepancy. Maybe, counting Vietnamese brides and other foreigners? Anyway, it is sad it hasn’t gone up.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
  203. Mikhail says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I continually harangue AK for his support of the Triune theory, that is really nothing more than an endorsement of Russian imperialism and heavy handed treatment of Ukraine.

    No.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/22052011-pavlo-skoropadsky-and-the-course-of-russian-ukrainian-relations-analysis/

    I’ve even gone to to task with AP, pointing out that he’s too hard on the OUN/UPA movement, criticising it through the glasses of a modern observer, not seeing it in the context of its own time and giving it enough credit for the fact that an independent Ukraine exists today.

    Credit can be given to the Bolshe higher ups, who earlier promoted Ukrainian nationalism, albeit as part of a union of nations. Recall Hrushevsky and Vinnichenko falling for it.

    My poor mother lived through the Holodomor as a child. She told me on several occasions that “there were plenty of our own [Ukrainians] that were involved in the confiscation of foodstuffs too, that resulted in untold deaths.

    True.

    Russians and Ukrainians need to learn to get along and not constantly be at each others throats, for the benefit of the following generations. Ukrainians and Poles have had equally horrendous historical encounters and are learning how to coexist, why can’t Ukrainians and Russians?

    If anything, the Ukrainian-Polish variant has been more violent. As for the present, many Russians and Ukrainians get along great.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  204. Dreadilk says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    Yall going to radicalized him further. 😂

  205. @Bashibuzuk

    More svidomites, the better! AP and Mr. Hack are too thoughtful, balanced and logical, they are so fricking balanced and thoughtful, that even I start to feel sympathy towards Ukrainian separatist traitors. They are no good for morale in this long struggle…

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: AP
    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    , @Mr. Hack
  206. @AltanBakshi

    Out friends AP and Mr Hack are so good at defending the Ukrainian interests that I surprisingly found myself feeling some sympathy for the Azov battalion…

    🙂

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Troll: AltanBakshi
  207. LatW says:
    @Bashibuzuk

    The only problem is that a third of it is ethnic Russian fighters

    Please. 🙂 That group has never been a problem for Ukrainians and never will be. Those are non-imperialist Russians, the Dima Dyomushkin crowd. Ukrainians consider them soratniks (fellows) and so called pobratimi (brothers in arms). They are ideologically practically identical. And were given citizenship. Btw, one of the most persecuted groups in Russia. Would be interesting to figure out their numbers, but may not be realistic. But they’ve been out there for decades.

  208. Mr. Hack says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Yeah, kill all Ukrainians that don’t swear an oath of featly to Father Putin and that want to develop there own country. Kiss the ring o Putin an that’ll set you free. 🙁

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  209. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    For better or worse, people in Ukraine remember Stepan Bandera and his followers whose rabid form of nationalism prompted many to come to the frontlines and support Ukraine during its recent time of troubles starting in 2014. Skoropadsky is a big nothing burger in Ukraine’s pantheon of rock superstars today, that can’t really be compared to Bandera as far as importance goes. I’m saying this as one who actually finds a lot of Skoroadsky’s conservative politics more attractive than Bandera’s quasi -facistic principles, but facts is facts Mickey. 🙂

    Mickey peddling Skoropadsky burgers at every turn. 🙂

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  210. Mr. Hack says:

    What happened to our young Svidomite friend? I wrote him such a nice, long reply this morning, as did AP and Bashibuzuk, that I thought that he would huff and puff and blow us all away with replies by now. He must be at the gym pushing some heavy weights, as the physical exam for the AZOV battalion is a real doozey. 🙂

    I should know, I’ve flunked it 3 times now!

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
  211. @reiner Tor

    I threw in a hyperbole and good that you call it out. Yes I know about Auftragstaktik and Bewegungskrieg and its fine application at Westfeldzug. Like a skilled portfolio manager they are keen to take risks and always made sure the rewards outweighed it.

    And btw this does not contradict at all with Art of War

    Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy’s will to be imposed on him. 故善战者,致人而不致于人

    http://changingminds.org/disciplines/warfare/art_war/sun_tzu_6-1.htm

    The strategic level is a different question, but that was mostly the responsibility of the political leadership, basically Hitler.

    Here I’m interested on takes of which instances are most decisive? These are what I know to be some pivotal points

    1. After Sep ’41 Smolensk, decision to consolidate flanks of AG Centre rather than spearhead towards Moscow
    2. „Stand fast“ order in response to Soviet counterattack at Moscow
    3. Extension of Case Blue objectives to include Caucasus as well as Stalingrad
    4. Insistence on launching of Zitadelle
    5. Dismissal of Manstein

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  212. @songbird

    Macrotrends frequently has wrong statistics. I think they use projections based on old statistics rather than having up to date data.

    • Thanks: songbird
  213. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    In terms of the present day, Skoro doesn’t evoke the same level of negativity as Bandera.

    He was a conservative favoring close Russo-Ukrainian ties. There’re also Ukrainians to the left of him (past and present) favoring such.

  214. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Sure beats what this guy kisses up to:

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  215. Mr. Hack says:

    The trouble with Paul skoropadsky, was that he was always changing his orientation, grasping for straws in order to keep his Hetmanate project alive. Some Ukrainian nationalists see him as one of their own, other Russophiles (like you) also claim him as a kindred spirit. The fact is that he mostly acted as a German puppet, even retiring somewhere in Bavaria living well of a German pension. I don’t really blame him for his inconsistencies, as his time was full of chaos and uncertainty.

    I do admit, that your unwavering interest in the man is a bit strange? His legacy in Ukraine is minimal and nobody really takes too much interest in him, except as a kind of historical oddity. His grandson, Boris Skoropadsky, tried to revive the Hetman’s mantle, but had to finally leave and return to Canada, because he couldn’t really quite make a career out of selling nothing burgers in Ukraine. He tried to, I give him credit for that. His story is almost as interesting and certainly as checkered as his grandfathers. You can read about him here, although there’s really quite a bit more to be found if you’re really interested. He saw his Grandfather as a fighter for Ukrainian independence and paid little heed to his Grandfather’s last stab at self preservation, by writing his Russian/Ukrainian manifesto, that never really got off the ground. Perhaps, you can contact him (I believe that he lives somewhere in Toronto) and convince him otherwise. Who knows, maybe he’ll offer you a post in his new government, once the union takes place? 🙂

    https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/day-after-day/skoropadsky-successor-returns-ukraine

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  216. Lol in this thread Mr.Hack compared me to Gerard lite and called me a svidomite(its a play on sodomite).

    Except Gerard goes onto tirades like: USSR was teh best!!11! hoholdomor was a lie, USSR was a peaceful empire natzee Germany balts invade peaceful USSR!!11211!

    because of shitters like Mr.Hack who dont take it seriously and keep forgiving things. Russians invading keeps repeating. Thats why they won in 1921 because unlike Balts and Finns who took it very seriously , instead we have a lot of “Mr.Hacks “.

    @Akarlin youre calling me the lolcow, yet you’re the one who has spent years or maybe even a decade now trying to refute that Bolshevism wasnt a Russian thing. Searching for redemption in any form (in Whites, in Russian Fascists, in Monarchism, in Orthodoxy, maybe even that transhumanism fixation is a part of that too). I know, I know it hurts terribly, shooting yourself in the foot like that, yes Russia could’ve had like 300 mil pop by now.

    Im actually a nice guy, unlike many more radical nationalists I do not wish for your disintegration I only wish for you to leave me alone. Leave and take all those Russians, all those tatars, all of those minorities, just vacate back to Russia. It has plenty of space, literally. Im not even asking for Kuban.But Donbass has to stay Ukrainian. And Crimea. Just without the local fauna.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AltanBakshi
  217. @Mikhail

    This Moss Robeson…i happen to be blocked by like 2 people on twitter
    That creatura mutt thing happens to be one of them because I called him out for working with US state department, hardcore Zionists, etc. It only took one sentence and he couldn’t handle the criticism.

    Then fact that he worships Zionists (not that I particularly care what Jews do or maybe he is a crypto Jew himself) but the fact that he searches for “subversive ethnic lobbies” when he is literally entwined with the Jewish lobby. Instead he harps something about “a Banderite lobby in the Biden administration” and “Trump-Bandera Voters”. Logs in the eye and all that. His articles consist of prostrating to some Jewish supremacists, saying sorry to minorities, and searching for Ukrainian lobbies.

    I also called him out for calling Ukrainians white supremacists that fight for ?whites??lol.
    (this is what happens when you are a “white” from Canada and get soaked in New World mores and you come back to Europe) .

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  218. Mr. Hack says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    I’ve written plenty at this blogsite criticizing Russia’s illegal and provocative actions in Ukraine. You’re childish rants here do indeed remind me of Gerard’s. Come back when you learn to swim better as required for the deep pool reserved for the bigger boys – at this point you may drown in the wading pool. 🙁

    Why don’t you try picking on somebody more your own size, like Gerard? 🙂

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  219. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Svidomyatheart

    Ben Hodges is an establishment stooge himself, catering to the super svidos. If what you say about the other guy is true, then this must be some factional fighting within the system.

  220. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    I recall both Yushchenko and Yanukovych’s admin speaking positively of him. Ditto that extremist (believe Right Sector) guy who was shot a few years back.

    On the subject of puppet, he was less a puppet of the Germans than Petliura was to Pilsudskiite Poland. I recall a piece by von Hagen saying that even under German influence, Skoro was reluctant to be on bad terms with Russia.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. Hack
  221. @Svidomyatheart

    Thats why they won in 1921 because unlike Balts and Finns who took it very seriously

    Finns had a civil war and majority of Finnish workers and common people were on the side of the Reds, only thanks to German intervention Reds were defeated and Whites won. Once again you are an idiot who doesn’t know what’s he’s talking about.

  222. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Lots of folks have at one time or another been interested in and have even admired him, believe it or not, myself included. It’s something I grew out of after I started to realize that the old Hetman was a little too chameleon like to form a cult around. Two really intelligent Ukrainian historians thought a lot about the man and even wrote books about him, Omeljan Pritsak and Viacheslav Lypinskyj. I bet they admired him for reasons that did not include his last ditch efforts to try and reunite Ukraine with Russia. The Hetmanate movement in the diaspora was a colorful affair, and at one time it hosted a large following. Lavish banquets where the Ukrainian hoi polloi would congregate to celebrate their old Hetman were actually quite common throughout Europe and North America. Did you know that there was even a para-military formation set-up by the Hetmanites in Canada where they formed a squadron of air pilots that would be used when the opportunity arose? What do you think about his “grandson” that offers an interesting last page(?) to the Skoropadsky legacy?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  223. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Could you offer a citation to the von Hagen article? He lived and taught here in AZ, and died a little over a year ago – I did mention this here at this blogsite.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  224. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Some of his supporters congregated in White Russian diaspora ranks.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  225. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    I’ll try to get hold of it in a short bit.

  226. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    I’m sure that there were. Why wasn’t Deniken’s White movement able to form some sort of an alliance with Skoropadsky’s government? The movements were close enough and the military backgrounds of both Deniken and Skoropadsky were also very similar.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  227. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Skoropadsky apparently (based on the sources out there) didn’t get along with Denikin. In turn, the latter wasn’t pleased with Skoro going over to the Central Powers. Denikin remained faithful to the Entente.

    As noted, the Whites (unlike the Central Powers) weren’t well situated in Ukraine when Skoro was at his political peak. By the time that changed, Skoro was overthrown and (if I’m not offhand mistaken) in Germany.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/22052011-pavlo-skoropadsky-and-the-course-of-russian-ukrainian-relations-analysis/

    Denikin and Skoro each had issues with various players. Skoro was said to be suspect of the Galician Ukrainians. Notwithstanding, they were both conservative anti-Communists and apprehensive with Poland and Petliura. Denikin was said to have differences with Wrangel (who succeeded Denikin as the key White commander) and the Don Cossack leader Peter Krasnov.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  228. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    I present you with a good concise article about the Hetmanate’s paramilitary yearnings in the North American diaspora. I find this kind of thing to be fantastical, and before my time. Europe, as far as I know, was where the Hetmanate movement or what remained of it, was where the Hetmanych Danylo lived and where the movement was probably even more active and organized.


    Danylo Skoropadsky, son of Pauvlo and father of Boris Skoropadsky, poisoned by KGB agents and died in 1957.

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkPath=pages%5CU%5CN%5CUnitedHetmanOrganization.htm

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  229. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    In terms of the diaspora immediately following WW I, he wasn’t such a nothing burger in relative comparative terms. There’s a Russian monarchist movement that a good number of Russians sympathetic to monarchy don’t support:

    https://riuo.org/index.en.html

    Among the issues is whether the RIUO propped are the most legit of successors to the Russian throne.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  230. the most legit of successors to the Russian throne.

    No they’re not.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  231. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    You’re right, during the interwar period, his flame was still glowing…but by the 1950’s it was dimming quite quickly and totally snuffed out by the 1960’s. That’s already quite a bit more than 50 years ago, Mickey. Wake-up Mickey, it’s already 2021, today it’s only the likes of the illegitimate son Boris and you that express any interest in him. And me, who always seems to be drawn to ‘Historical oddities”! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  232. @Mr. Hack

    You are partying here like a Ball during a plague, and as I speak Russians are amassing armor and weapons.

    Once again need to be like Balts and Poles who take take the slightest hint of offense or provocation seriously, while you keep brushing it off.

    Their mind is on point, they know their enemy, they understand that there can be no negotiations with these imperialists but instead “Mr.Hacks” even go as far as “hindering” effort.

    Oh i forgot another thing, Akarlin searching for redemption in that book , “Latvian Impact on the Bolshevik Revolution” I can picture it in my head, finally he gets the book hands shaking, it must reveal the secrets and absolve Russians of Bolshevism.
    He opens it … only for it to contain a few passages about how some Latvians served Lenin. Where is that Latvian book review? Memoryholed already?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Daniel Chieh
  233. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Bashibuzuk

    No disagreement. They do get around.

  234. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    You’re missing the point. His legacy has made somewhat of a comeback.

  235. Mr. Hack says:

    His legacy has made somewhat of a comeback.

    I already mentioned you and Boris. I’m fence sitting on this one, Mickey. 🙂

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  236. Mr. Hack says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    I’m not brushing anything off, Brother. I jut don’t know how all this will all end-up, as it hasn’t even started yet?…Hey, give me some credit, I stood up for you and asked Karlin not to bother with banning you, didn’t I? Because there are so many loonies that show up here at this blog, it’s hard for me to be 100% serious all of the time.
    Believe me, I’ve shed more than one tear for Ukraine and its people. It looks like your swimming lessons are paying off – you must have gotten a new spell checker too. Don’t forget, marketing is everything in this modern world. 🙂

  237. @Svidomyatheart

    only for it to contain a few passages about how some Latvians served Lenin. Where is that Latvian book review? Memoryholed already?

    Gospozha Karlina is a busy woman. Perhaps if you supported her here, she’ll be able to dedicate more time to this specific topic.

    https://www.patreon.com/akarlin

    • Replies: @Svidomyatheart
  238. @Daniel Chieh

    Its ok he transitioned back already

  239. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Not just him as previously noted. Your popularity point has limits. No German post-WW II political party has reached the popularity level of the Nazis. The OUN/UPA have never been as popular among Ukrainians as the Nazis were with Germans.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  240. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    No German post-WW II political party has reached the popularity level of the Nazis

    No, Merkel has done better than the Nazis in Germany in at least one of her victorious elections (but not in others).

    The OUN/UPA have never been as popular among Ukrainians as the Nazis were with Germans.

    Correct.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  241. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Here I’m interested on takes of which instances are most decisive?

    Mostly on the level of grand strategy. Starting the war itself. Then attacking the USSR. Then declaring war on the US. There were good arguments in favor of the latter two, but probably both were huge mistakes.

    1. After Sep ’41 Smolensk, decision to consolidate flanks of AG Centre rather than spearhead towards Moscow
    2. „Stand fast“ order in response to Soviet counterattack at Moscow
    3. Extension of Case Blue objectives to include Caucasus as well as Stalingrad
    4. Insistence on launching of Zitadelle
    5. Dismissal of Manstein

    1) Though many people argue that it was a good decision, it was probably a big mistake, especially since the affected commanders thought that they shouldn’t have been diverted. It’s impossible to know with absolute certainty.
    2) It was probably the correct decision.
    3) It was probably a big mistake.
    4) It didn’t matter much already, though Manstein still believed that they could win, it was probably not the case.
    5) It didn’t matter much as the war was already lost.

  242. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    The OUN/UPA have never been as popular among Ukrainians as the Nazis were with Germans.

    That’s relatively true, and can be ascribed to Germany’s much further evolution of nationhood and statehood than Ukraine’s at the same period of time. Once Hitler and his Nazi party took control of Germany, they could put all of the weight of the state into proselytizing the German people (press, radio, billboards, schools etc). The OUN/UPA movement was always an underground affair and for what it was, it showed high levels of support, at least in Western Ukraine.

    At least for the Banderite faction, especially in the diaspora, their mark can be felt to this day, something that absolutely cannot be said of the Hetmantsy. In almost every major city east of the Mississippi where Ukrainians lived, the Banderivtsi built Ukrainian cultural centers where they could continue socializing with their fellow Ukrainians. These buildings, were often places where even other non-Banderite Ukrainians were allowed free access to use for their own purposes (choirs, folk dancing, theater groups, sporting organizations). In the 1970’s, these buildings often housed the nascent credit union movement, that allowed its members a place to conduct banking activities. I saw firsthand how useful these services were for new immigrants that started to appear in the 1980’s. I was even pleasantly surprised to see this type of building in Phoenix, AZ when I moved here, that was constructed in the 1960’s. Can you point to any such markers that the Hetmantsy left for posterity?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  243. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I think it’s fair to say that after the “elections” (as defined in Western terms), the Nazis became more popular than what any post-WW II German government had.

  244. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Skoro is credited with establishing a modern day UOC – something that definitely can’t be attributed to Bandera.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  245. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Banderas’s homebase was centered in Western Ukraine, especially in Galicia. Although the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church of that time had some serious issues with Bandera and his followers, Bandera had no specific axe to grind with it. Skoropadsky, on the other hand was involved with a chaotic situation within the Ukrainian Orthodox church, and tried his hardest to remain neutral, but undoubtedly lost face with the “Autocephalists” who were trying to severe ties with the ROC, for many felt that it wasn’t responsive enough to the peculiarities and needs of the Ukrainian people. His run as Hetman lasted for only 10 months, so his lasting impression was tenuous at best. The Bolsheviks, of course. were not interested in supporting any kind Orthodox church structure in Ukraine, or elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  246. @reiner Tor

    Genau. Trotzdem hatten sie Caulaincourt alle gelesen, diese Herren verloren ihre polnischen Immobilien

  247. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Actually, the Reds initially okayed a UAOC. Subtelny and others suggest that this move was for the purpose of trying to limit the ROC, viewed as being supportive of the old order.

    Hypothetically, a Bolshevik defeat might’ve led to a UAOC/UOC having a similar relationship with the ROC-MP, along the lines of the present status quo between the ROCOR and ROC-MP. The latter runs its own affairs, while being formally affiliated with the former.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  248. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Hypothetically, you were supposed to provide me with the coordinates for an article written by von Hagen about Skoropadsky? To show you that I don’t hold your lethargic nature against you, and to show you what a swell guy I can really be, I’m throwing in an English language article that goes into minute detail exploring the background of why Skoropadsky and Deniken couldn’t (or wouldn’t) cement some sort of a relationship in their shared objective of countering the Bolsheviks:

    Ivan Korostovets, an experienced diplomat, was deployed to Iași, where the leadership and missions of the Entente countries were stationed.

    He brought back disappointing news – the Entente members were not going to recognize independence of the Ukrainian State.

    Hetman realized, that to get their favor, he needed to demonstrate the change in the country’s political path, which still remained oriented towards the Central Powers, also known as the Quadruple Alliance.

    Upon defeat of Germany, Pavlo Skoropadsky decided that the Ukrainian State should become part of renewal of Russia.


    https://www.istpravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2018/10/6/153084/

    Enjoy! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  249. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Acknowledges what I said further up this thread about Denikin and Skoropadsky not being on good terms with each other. Also notes that Skoro wanted to help the Whites, but was restricted on account of the WW I situation at the time.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Your lethargy is starting to become a little annoying?. 🙁

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  251. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    More like your trolling.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  252. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    If you can’t locate the article just say so, that’s Okay.

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