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Chechens in France, Khabib, and Sinotriumph
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So a Chechen refugee who was brutally persecuted by evil Russian occupiers and forced to flee to France recently beheaded a French teacher for triggering him with Mohammed cartoons. Difficult to care much. The French cultural elites, more so even than usual in the West, have long portrayed Chechens as noble freedom fighters against Russian oppression. It’s cute how normies believe the Hebdo vs. Muslims spat has anything whatsoever to do with freedom of speech. France aggressively prosecutes anti-immigrant and anti-Zionist activists. Hebdo itself couldn’t care about freedom of speech, having themselves been involved in the campaign against Siné, who lampooned Jewish political power in France. I can only assume his cartoons are not being shown to French schoolchildren, which is what an actual demonstration of respect for the principle of free speech (as opposed to propagandizing an official theology) would involve.

The beheading has since led to some copycat attacks, mostly concentrated in France itself. The biggest one of these was against Christians in France, including the stabbing of three Catholics and the shooting of a Greek Orthodox priest. Muslim public figures from Erdogan and Mahathir Mohamad (who said that Muslims have the right to kill millions of French people) to Ramzan Kadyrov rushed to condemn and castigate France for its infatuation with the Hebdo cartoons, while declining to extend a similar courtesy to the physical victims of their coreligionists. Not that they have any particular obligation to, but it does more than hint at underlying priorities, values, and agendas.

Incidentally, this even overflowed to Russia, where a 16 year old Volga Tatar radical (rare occurrence) stabbed a policeman three times before getting lethally shot. Ramzan Kadyrov decided to play foreign policy, promising “severe consequences” for Macron (this is not the first time he has done that; some years ago, he also counter-signalled Russian official foreign policy on Myanmar and the Rohingya, which is aligned with China’s). This, at least, even earned a rebuke from the Kremlin, which is often mealy-mouthed about Kadyrov’s insubordinations, with Putin’s spokesperson telling journalists that foreign policy is exclusively Moscow’s prerogative.

Another notable development was the de facto endorsement of the attacks from MMA fighter Khabib Nurmagomedov. There was little surprising about this. Although he is viewed as “Russian” by foreigners and the lower IQ/more apolitical Russians sports fans, reality is that he is a crypto-Salafist who has campaigned against “un-Islamic” singers performing in the Caucasus, and demonstratively refuses to compete under a Russian flag (when asked about it by journalists, he claimed that those who compete under it “rape women, beat up the elderly, and promote alcohol drinking” – a succinct summary of what he thinks, and at least in the case of assaults clearly projects, about ethnic Russians in general).

Incidentally, this is why most non-Caucasian Russians have supported the Irishman Conor McGregor in his fights with Khabib, in case you were wondering.

I suppose I have to make some kind of meta point with this ramble. I suppose it would be that I just don’t understand all these ideologies and policies at a very fundamental level. There are the “based bloggers” who are so obsessed with “Zionists” that they dream of some kind of Christian-Islamic or Orthodox-Islamic “civilizational alliance.” Yeah, good luck with that. You might like them, but they don’t like you. There are the Western “muh free speech” Big Brains (who don’t even follow their own ideology – as per above, draw a cartoon about actually protected groups – report back when out of jail) who think it’s a great idea to pick a fight with a billion “fragile” Mohammedans, when 20%+ of births in their own country accrue to Muslims of whom two thirds in turn support blasphemy laws. I’m, like:

Now speaking of Based Chinamen. Literally the only civilization whose actions make any kind of rational sense to me is China which avoids gratuitously provoking Muslims with stupid cartoons while herding millions of them into camps where they are educated on how to be civilized and patriotic human beings. Best of all, the global ummah has no issues whatsoever with China’s highly rational and enlightened policies in Xinjiang.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. No Mr. Karalin, don’t you see? Us (((Westerners))) NEED to provoke the Mahometans because we have ancestral grievances with them… just like with some other group…

  3. There was also a Frenchman shot dead by police after threatening a N African grocer and some french chicks stabbed a couple berber ones.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-terror-avignon-attack-stabbing-police-shooting-nice-today-b1420399.html

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/22/two-french-women-charged-over-racist-stabbing-of-veiled-muslim

    I don’t see the point of muh free speech cartoons.

    [MORE]

  4. If Islam was considered as a Christian sect, like say Mormonism, would Arabs (and other Muslims) integrate better into European countries? Hispanics certainly cause much less problems in United States than Arabs do in any EU country. A big part of that is identity. Hispanics are cucked with most of their native culture erased which results in them fitting into western society easier. Arabs on the other hand have much of their identity directly tied to Islam and get very angry when they feel Islam is insulted. This is barely a religious issue. There’s a lot of Arabs growing up in western countries who hardly practice religion but still chimp out when someone says Islam bad.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @Yevardian
  5. sh1pman says:

    > Best of all, the global ummah has no issues whatsoever with that.

    This is the biggest mystery to me. The West freaks out about Uyghur re-education camps, while the actual Muslims don’t give a damn. Is the issue dramatically overblown by the West for political reasons?..

  6. Mr. XYZ says:

    Now speaking of Based Chinamen. Literally the only civilization whose actions make any kind of rational sense to me is China which avoids gratuitously provoking Muslims with stupid cartoons while herding millions of them into camps where they are educated on how to be civilized and patriotic human beings. Best of all, the global ummah has no issues whatsoever with China’s highly rational and enlightened policies in Xinjiang.

    Is the lack of Muslim opposition to China’s policies on principled grounds or simply because Muslims fear China, though? Indeed, is there much more Muslim opposition to what Burma is doing to the Rohingya than to what China is doing to the Uyghurs? If so, that would make sense considering that Burma has 20x less people than China has and is thus astronomically easier for Muslims to criticize and pick on.

    • Replies: @J Lee
    , @foolisholdman
  7. Mr. XYZ says:

    The real morons are, of course, libertarians who want open borders while at the same time believing that importing tens or hundreds of millions of Muslims is not going to result in free speech in the West becoming even more threatened than it already is.

    • Agree: SIMP simp
  8. JSQ says:

    Best of all, the global ummah has no issues whatsoever with China’s highly rational and enlightened policies in Xinjiang.

    The reason(s) for this deserve further analysis. Certainly it exposes the hypocrisy of the Arab Street’s anti-Israel position (Israel is the bogeyman not for its “human rights” violations but because it is Jewish and, I suspect, “European,” at least to Arab perception). But why so little concern amongst Arabs/Turks/Persians/Caucasians for their “brother Muslim” Uighurs? Three possible, and not mutually exclusive, explanations:

    1) Muslim fundamentalism is a top-down movement which depends on Gulf petrodollars. These nations need continued good relations with China, ergo any mullah disseminating anti-Chinese propaganda would be quickly marginalized.

    2) Muslims, despite their superficial claims of universalism, perceive their religion in ethno-geographic terms; as per above, any perceived offense by “Europeans” (including Israelis) is redolent of the Crusades, Reconquista etc, and must be countered. China has no emotional content for most Muslims due to social and cultural distance, and by extension they don’t perceive Uighurs as “real” Muslims.

    3) Muslims are afraid of China. This one has to be at least somewhat true; imagine foreign “jihadists” trying to infiltrate the CCP? Won’t happen on any large scale. Ever.

  9. songbird says:

    McGregor (rude white) vs. Mayweather (polite black) was as good as a political test in the US.

    only civilization whose actions make any kind of rational sense to me is China which avoids gratuitously provoking Muslims

    I’d probably go crazy if there were megaphones blasting propaganda on the streets. But I guess that doesn’t work on an international level. If you ask me, the US has done the hard work of establishing the Chinese relationship with Muslims – they see China as a potential arms supplier. Some rather feverishly want Chinese military bases in the Middle East. (I doubt China is really interested in anything but perhaps a token naval presence.

    The invasion of Europe isn’t just about destroying Europeans, IMO. Globalists think that secular Europe is a poison pill for Muslims, and that Hebdo is part of that pill.

  10. J Lee says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Have the Chinese demonstrated the capabilty to drone strike muslims with impunity? Invade their countries from halfway across the globe? Crush their armies with lopsided KDRs and occupy their land indefinitely? Westerners have done all of that and Muslims are evidently still not impressed enough to stop the beheadings.
    If it’s trade then Westerners are still at parity with China although slightly losing. Still, do Muslim leaders strike you as sensible pragmatic type when they destroy millions in mutual trade with France just to make a point?
    Maybe the Chinese are simply based which is a quality all of it’s own and Westerners are not.

  11. @JSQ

    These are about the best explanations I’ve seen for a puzzling phenomenon. I’d add a couple more:

    4) In China, unlike the West, there is no part of the native polity that responds to Muslim terrorism by saying, “oh, we have to be nicer to the Muslims because we are obviously to blame for their actions.” In other words, to the extent that Muslim terrorism is pragmatic, there is no pragmatic upside to anti-Chinese terrorism. In a weird semi-confirmation of this, the West tries goad China into responding as the liberal West does, by taking up the anti-Chinese Uighur cause in a way that Muslims themselves don’t bother to.

    5) There is a tacit latitude-ism/altitude-ism among the Muslim ummah. Being mostly low-altitude, low-latitude dwellers in warmer climes, high-latitude high-altitude cold clime Xinjiang just doesn’t register on the ummah‘s mental radar very strongly. One might argue that Afghanistan is a counter-example, but a) Afghanistan isn’t as remote as Xinjiang, and b) it took $billions of CIA and Saudi money to stir up an ummah-wide reaction there which didn’t actually matter all that much anyway as most Afghan resistance was and is indigenous rather than foreign jihadis. There is also a slightly less tacit Arabocentrism among the Arab ummah such that grievances of non-Arab Muslims are less provocative than the grievances of Arab Muslims. The foregoing could be added as ethno-geographic elaboration of the socio-cultural dimension in point 2) of the original comment.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  12. @sh1pman

    This is the biggest mystery to me. The West freaks out about Uyghur re-education camps, while the actual Muslims don’t give a damn. Is the issue dramatically overblown by the West for political reasons?.

    Sure. Total nonsense. China has a smart phone per person and we need satellite pictures via buzzfeed to prove concentration camps for 1 million people.

    As for the beheadings. The teacher was teaching about the incident in his history class. Any equivocation on whether he could do that and I’m not sure what Westen values we are defending. Not that France isn’t hypocritical on free speech.

    As for the killings in the Catholic Churches and the orthodox priest. Pure sectarianism. Nothing to do with the cartoons (except in the minds of the perpetrators). We don’t even know what these individuals thought about the cartoons, they could well have been pro blasphemy laws.

    One of the persons killed was a black Brazilian catholic.

    #blackcatholiclivesdontmatter

  13. BBK says:
    @JSQ

    There seems to be widespread confusion in the West about why there is so little response from the Muslim world to the Uighur situation so I’ll try to clarify.

    1) Geopolitics: The West has few allies in the Muslim world. Our closest ally is our petro dollar alliance with Saudi Arabia, but even that doesn’t stop them from funding and exporting radical Islam, Wahhabism, to our shores. In contrast, Pakistan is a very close ally of China and other powerful Muslim countries like Turkey and Iran at the very least would like China to be a counterweight to the West and all have important trading relations with China they don’t want to upset. Western and Muslim relations have been worsening since the War on Terror, maybe getting close to reaching as bad as during the all time lows during the Petro Shock days. These Muslim countries don’t have much more to lose by stirring up their co-religionists in Western countries but have a lot to lose by upsetting relationships with China.

    2) Uighur’s are Asian. Just like in Central Asia, there’s a gamut from looking 100% European to looking 100% Asian. Uighurs are a tiny population among a sea of Han and have been under Chinese rule or at least interacting with China for hundreds of years. Many of them are almost indistinguishable from Han Chinese, they just happen to practice Islam. With the rest you can still tell they have Asian admixture. So they just don’t draw the same emotions from the Muslim world as Palestinians. Similarly, Indonesia is technically the largest Muslim country in the world, but they’re hardly a leader of the rest of the Muslim world.

    3) China has been pretty transparent about what they’re doing in Xinjiang and apparently even let representatives from Muslim countries observe to confirm there hasn’t been undue treatment of the Uighurs. They’re not gassing anyone or even beating up the Uighurs despite some of the more hysterical claims and insinuations of “concentration camps”. China has been rocked by Uighur terrorist attacks in recent years, which is why they have finally taken the steps they have to “re-educate” Uighurs. But this is hardly reported in western media whereas China’s reactive responses – including China’s increased surveillance state which was implemented to try to combat terrorist attacks more so than to quell domestic dissidents – are widely covered by western media, so it can seem like China is acting capriciously and disproportionately.

    4) Even within China, the Muslim community largely supports China’s actions. The Western media paints the Uighurs as THE muslims in China, but they’re actually a small denomination of the muslims in China. The largest denomination of muslims in China are Hui muslims. Uighurs and Hui and Uighurs and other Muslim groups have actually shed blood in recent history over their religious differences. The other Muslim groups largely view the Uighurs as extremists and an out of control minority group. So although it’s trumpeted as a China vs Muslim battle, it’s more like a China vs extremist terrorist group, that just so happens to be Muslim. The other Muslim groups in China have similarly faced terrorist attacks from Uighurs, and actually borne more of the brunt because they tend to live beside Uighurs more so than Han Chinese, and so they have actually been some of the strongest supporters of China’s crackdown.

    • Thanks: showmethereal
  14. Max Payne says:

    Khabib is a spectacular fighter. That being said like many fighters they are barely scratching 100 iq. From my understanding Khabib is your neo-Muslim mama boy (like Russian or Italian mamas boys). Not that I care to read about these douchebags lives but through osmosis even I know he is a very traditional pious individual. His nature has little in terms of corruption which is probably why Putin doesn’t mind being seen in pictures with him (foreign celebrities don’t count as they are… Foreign).

    People supported McGregor because of showmanship. McGregor is all about talking shit and drawing a (fight inept) crowd. McGregor himself knows this and has pushed his contract value up again and again (as well as fake retired 6 million times). This is why you see so much support for him from Mongoloid-looking humans.
    Business. Niggers, Eternal Beta’s, and the West in general love a shit talker (Trump is a prime example of boss shit talk; no disrespect).

    China deals with Muslims like all problematic groups it can’t deport (Falun Gong et al.) Old school camps, generational education and social credit (now officialized). The black people living in Chinas “Chocolate City” can easily be deported if they get rowdy. Human geography should be a key component to urban planning but Westerners are too autistic for that shit.

  15. El Dato says:

    Best take.

    they dream of some kind of Christian-Islamic or Orthodox-Islamic “civilizational alliance.”

    Islam has much more in common with Judaism than with Christianity, including the origin of this particular meme infection. Including wanting to own the very provincial town of Jerusalem.

  16. Levtraro says:

    There are the “based bloggers” who are so obsessed with “Zionists” that they dream of some kind of Christian-Islamic or Orthodox-Islamic “civilizational alliance.”

    I noted that in the latest piece by the Saker, praising the Iranian branch of islam as it was some kind of wonderful philosophy. I thought it was supremely stupid and transparently insincere.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  17. Znzn says:

    The problem with Sinotriumph is that people tend to just flat out ignore things and handwaved them away with magical thinking, or got to guilt by association when people like Michael Pettis bring up the problems of massive inefficiencies in things like housing, transportation, or corporate and household debt in China.

  18. Znzn says:

    Let us just come up with a percentage. What percentage of Chinese private enterprises are operating efficiently, that is converting capital into productive uses? What percentage of Chinese state owned enterprises do the same? I think that no one here can really come up with an honest answer.

  19. @Shortsword

    Mormons are not Christian and how you could make people, both Europeans and Muslims, to start viewing Islam as a Christian sect? Nonsense….

  20. @sh1pman

    Same reason why Muslims whine constantly about Srebrenica but dont speak about the utter decimation of Grozny with huge civilian casualties. Because they respect power and might simple as that. Serbia is militarily weak, Russia is strong, plus western powers openly support them against the Serbs. Same with Burma and its Rohingyas and China with its Uyghurs. One is a comparatively weak power, condemned by the west, another one is a a paramount power of Asia. Bullies always pick someone who is weaker or looks to be in a weaker position than them. Which by the way is key for understanding the motivations for the Armenian and Assyrian genocides.

  21. Ummm maybe they should learn to live in harmony with muslims? Maybe uhhhhh grow more tolerant sweety? 🙂
    They told us that dialog and tolerance could’ve solved the issues with Muslims in the Balkans, what’s the problem now? Smh can’t believe how serbo-fascist france is becoming…

  22. @Znzn

    There have been numerous western commentators denying Chinese economic growth and yet it continues to power on, working well in practice more than in theory.

    • Replies: @128
  23. Ano4 says:

    France is seen as an ancient colonial power and a long time adversary to Islam. China on the other hand has never had anti- Islamic crusades launched from its soil and has never attempted to dominate Islamic world and erase its identity. Chinese Hui Muslims are not persecuted by the CCP and live normal lives. Uyghur extremists are acting for nationalist reasons as much as religious ones. There’s no Chinese version of Charlie Hebdo and no Chinese equivalent of Gesta Dei per Francos no Deus vult. In short, the Chinese are not seen as an historical adversary by Muslims, while the French are.

  24. SZ says:
    @sh1pman

    Most endogamous (meaning: where cousin marriage is a prerogative) Islamic societies, and most people within those societies, have no problem with applying harsh discipline at home and beating up their own children. Concentration or re-education camps, whatever you call them, are a macro variant of this style.
    Satire and humour, on the other hand, even if not involving any sort of blasphemy, are seen as a complete waste of time, and as gay and snob activities to be condemned and beaten out of anyone who is involved.
    It is not a coincidence that most terrorist attacks undertaken by amateur young Islamists (meaning: sons of ignorant and dumb mothers married to the nephews of their fathers ) took place in concert arenas, restaurants, promenades, Christmas markets, and other public places where regular folk were trying to have some fun. The average retarded offspring of 500 generations of cousin marriage cannot stand regular people having fun, especially when males and females have fun together, unless the females are raped, or at least, paid for. No ‘Islamist’ has ever attacked a brothel or massage salon or similar venue, although prostitution is one the major sins in Islam. Similarly, no gambler saloon or betting shop has ever been attacked by islamists, even tough betting is an equally grave sin in Islam. Retarded sons of benefit receivers married to their dumb cousins are not offended when confronted with gambling or prostitution, but are infuriated when men and women laugh and sing and eat and dance together, or when people engage in comedy, tell jokes, draw caricatures, and the like.
    Endogamy is a pest which is also fuelled and nourished by the unconditional social benefit regimes of almost all Western countries enabling sheer stupidity to thrive and to procreate en masse. The Chinese, on the other hand, are neither endogamous, nor do they tolerate endogamy.

    • Replies: @Marshal Marlow
  25. I don’t understand why French leftists insist on having open borders and then continuously antagonising Muslims by insulting their Prophet.

    In Britain those cartoons would be banned and the authors prosecuted for inciting racial hatred, and most British leftists would be appalled by such a racist display of “Islamophobia”. Definitely big cultural differences, there’s no illusion of free speech in this country.

    I have to laugh when British leftists say “Je Suis Charlie”, because there is absolute no way they would have supported those cartoons if they’d been made by British people, they would see them as far-right and racist and demand the authors be prosecuted and the cartoons banned so they are absolutely hypocrites to pretend to defend free speech.

  26. 128 says:
    @Eugene Norman

    Michael Pettis mentioned that Chinese GDP should be treated as an input number, rather than an output number, likely when you dig up a hole, and then pay somebody to patch it up again, that also adds to GDP, and building an underused convention center also adds to GDP.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  27. @128

    He can be casually debunked by the fact that people in China keep getting richer and have better lives.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @128
    , @Blinky Bill
  28. @Ano4

    Too simplistic take on history. Qing dynasty had very serious problems with multiple Muslim groups, Uyghurs and Hui included, and sometimes massacred millions of them. Yuan too had problems with Muslims and Mongols often forbade circumcision and Halal (and Kosher) slaughtering, and even sometimes forced Muslims to eat pork. Good old Tsingghis Haan!

    Among all the [subject] alien peoples only the Hui-hui say “we do not eat Mongol food”. [Cinggis Qa’an replied:] “By the aid of heaven we have pacified you; you are our slaves. Yet you do not eat our food or drink. How can this be right?” He thereupon made them eat. “If you slaughter sheep, you will be considered guilty of a crime.” He issued a regulation to that effect … [In 1279/1280 under Qubilai] all the Muslims say: “if someone else slaughters [the animal] we do not eat”. Because the poor people are upset by this, from now on, Musuluman [Muslim] Huihui, and Zhuhu [Jewish] Huihui, no matter who kills [the animal] will eat [it] and must cease slaughtering sheep themselves, and cease the rite of circumcision.

    • Replies: @techvet
    , @Blinky Bill
  29. 128 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Proof? The same kind of people here who would say that mounting personal debt in the US is a bad thing would say that mounting personal debt in China is a good thing. Why would people be taking increasing amounts of debt to finance their lifestyle if they are doing well, rather using using leverage to make up for insufficient increases in income in order to fund their lifestyle, the upper class and possibly upper middle classes in China are still having a quite good time, as they are in the US (AP will tell you this), people below that, not so much. Plus all those empty apartments that have no buyers, at least not at the price that companies are willing to sell them.

  30. techvet says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Thats being too much of a history buff..Contemporary Chinese policies are as based as it gets..they are thoroughly concerned with domestic populace and do not try to remake the world in its image (like the contemporary “west” does)

    This translates to “no democrazy bombings while chanting about peace”, no immigration of any kind and pure trade. The “modern west” on the other hand is as dystopian and orwellian as it gets. You are allowed to mock them, yet anyone who wants immigration to stop and the Jewish subversion to be exposed is imprisoned..

    The Chinese are not like that

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  31. @128

    1) government debt isn’t the same as personal debt
    2) what are you even talking about, urban areas in China are not known for empty apartments
    3)If you’re referring to ghost cities, they’re a form of local gdp padding but not really relevant to the lives of day to day Chinese
    4)all upper class Chinese are not in the US, obviously.

    • Agree: foolisholdman
  32. 128 says:

    I guess no one here is really qualified to answer, but can China can up on chips with the likes of TSMC and Samsung? But the most cutting edge chips are only needed for handsets and laptops, for 5g and military applications you really do not need the most cutting edge chips, so China will still do fine there, plus their jet engine project seems to be proceeding along unevenly. Particularly their civilian jet engine program seems to be going nowhere fast, keep in mind that they are dealing with a moving target.

  33. @AltanBakshi

    China is also investing heavily in many Islamic countries like Iran and Pakistan via their One Belt, One Road project, so the state media’s of many Islamic nations do not create this campaign of rage against China as a gesture of goodwill in return for the generous yuan.

    The Uighur stuff is mostly pushed by the West and in Islamic countries the campaign in favour of Uighurs is related to guerilla status, Uighurs are way down on the list when compared to more fashionable causes like Palestine.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  34. @Daniel Chieh

    Many China watchers, professional or otherwise, view her as a continental scale Potemkin village.

    This is a good thing and should be encouraged, with much hand waving!

  35. Whether China’s oppression of its minority groups is exaggerated or not is neither here nor there really, they get away with it because they’re non-white, and that’s all that’s important really.

    The reality is France could not deal with its Muslims, or the US with its blacks in the same way that China does with Uyghur and/or Tibetan separatists. If they did that I have no doubt it would result in WW3, because white people just aren’t allowed to treat “people of colour” like that, regardless of whether it’s justified or not.

    The truth is no one expects non-whites to be anything other than absolutely ruthless, whereas whites are expected to be better than that and people get very angry when they’re not. It really isn’t a level playing field when it comes to dealing with these things.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  36. @AltanBakshi

    In 1258, Hulagu invaded the Abbasid domain, which then consisted of only Baghdad, its immediate surroundings, and southern Iraq. In his campaign to conquer Baghdad, Hulagu Khan had several columns advance simultaneously on the city, and laid siege to it.

    The last caliph of the Abbasid Caliphate Al-Musta’sim was executed by Hulagu Khan soon afterward. It is reckoned that the Mongols did not want to shed “royal blood”, so they wrapped him in a rug and trampled him to death with their horses. Some of his sons were massacred as well; one of the surviving sons was sent as a prisoner to Mongolia, where Mongolian historians report he married and fathered children, but played no role in Islam thereafter.

  37. @J Lee

    Muslims likely see weakness in the West due to the fact that Western counties simultaneously bomb and invade their homelands while inviting in literally anyone into their own countries.

    If the West was merely bombing them, they would be scared.

  38. SIMP simp says:
    @JSQ

    Turkey supports Uighur islamists and organized thousands of them in islamist brigades that are fighting in Syria. Much of the stuff that is written in Western media is from Uighur refugees in Turkey. This has part to do with islamism but also with Turkey’s plans of pan-turkish hegemony in Central Asia that they’ve been following since 1991.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  39. @SIMP simp

    This one is for you Yevardian.

    [MORE]

    Turkey is shipping in militia, including the Uighur Muslim terror group the Turkestan Islamic Party (TIP).

    The Islamist fighters are thought to have been mobilised from their bases in Syria to join Azeri forces in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, where they are fighting against Armenia.

    Despite Turkey initially denying the presence of the jihadists, film footage and photographs have since corroborated reports which began circulating in the Syrian press in August.

    The Morning Star reported on the mobilisation of Turkish troops in July when tensions flared between the two Caucasus nations.

    Ankara was accused of a “dangerous provocation” after its armed forces joined their Azeri counterparts for war games exercises close to the Armenian border.

    It was reported that Turkey shipped fighters from the Syrian National Army into Azerbaijan during the military operations, with many wearing Turkish army uniforms and staying in the same barracks.

    The news was picked up by the mainstream media in late September when it was confirmed that hundreds of jihadists had been flown into Azerbaijan and were paid as much as $2,000 (£1,530) a month to fight in Nagorno-Karabakh.

    But according to the latest reports, Islamist groups are thought to have been present in Azerbaijan as early as February.

    Members of the Armenian diaspora in the Syrian city of Aleppo claim that mercenaries were sent by Turkey on buses belonging to the Aras transport company arriving in the Azeri regions of Nakhichivan and Sumgait in February and March.

    Aleppo-based freelance journalist Armen Tigrankert reported that the Uighur jihadists from the TIP, formerly known as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), were also mobilised by Ankara.

    TIP is designated as a terrorist organisation by the EU, UN and US, among other countries.

    Affiliated to al-Qaida, it seeks to establish a caliphate called East Turkestan to replace China’s Xinjiang Uighur autonomous region. TIP is accused of carrying out more than 200 terror attacks in the region between 1990 and 2001, killing more than 400 people.

    The group sent fighters to join the myriad of jihadist groups in Syria as they sought to overthrow the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

    TIP has a base in the city of Jisr al-Shughur in the Syrian province of Idlib, which remains under the control of Turkish-affiliated militants.

    Its fighters were reportedly given military training in the province before 30 Uighurs and their families were flown on a Turkish Airlines flight from the Turkish city of Antakya in Hatay province to the Azeri capital Baku.

    According to reports, the Uighur fighters are paid just $500 (£382) to $700 (£535) per month by the Turkish state, significantly lower than those from other militia including the Sultan Murad Brigade.

  40. 128 says:

    Are Chechens even that religious? I mean Kadyrov basically wears normal clothing instead of Islamic clothes.


  41. Purple – Countries which oppose the Chinese policy in Xinjiang.

    Yellow – Countries which support the Chinese policies in Xinjiang.

    Green – Countries which in the past supported the Chinese policy in Xinjiang but have since rescinded their support.

    Grey – Countries which neither oppose nor support Chinese policy in Xinjiang.

    More details here

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  42. AaronB says:

    France still believes in its utopian Enlightenment project of reforming mankind along rationalist lines. It has to continue letting Muslims in because all mankind are interchangeable units and can live in a society based on reason and enlightened self interest. At the same time France must continue attacking Muslim superstition, fanaticism, snd bigotry. The mere fact that Muslim superstition says Mohammed can’t be caricatured means he must be, if a society based on reason and free of fanaticism will be built.

    China is based on a different version of the utopian Enlightenment project to perfect mankind through reason, one more totalitarian and based on perfecting mankind through technology and social control. For China, social engineering large populations like the Uighurs demonstrates the capacity of technology and control to create a utopia based on reason. Like all of China’s “great leap forwards”, it too will fail, human nature being recalcitrant. But possessed by its Enlightenment vision, China must try.

    China is busy building Bentham’s Panopticon, a model of total surveillance and social conttol. Ironically, China’s future is based on a dream from the Wests past.

    Muslims are not as upset at China as they are at the West because one, they see them as victims of the power and dynamism of the West just as they are, and because China is not as dynamic and powerful as the West it elicits less resentment (being a leader in social control and implementing existing technologies, while demonstrating capacity, aren’t awe inspiring achievements).

    Finally, Muslims have an ancient rivalry and feud with Christian Europe, just as they do with Jews. A thriving Christian or Jewish world is a theological threat to Muslims in a way a thriving China is not.

    In the West, our faith in the Enlightenment agenda is slowly but surely crumbling. Obviously the Woke nonsense is the latest iteration of medieval utopian millenarian movements, so its false to say the West has evolved past the superficial belief that mankind is perfectable through reason. But its very inanity seems to suggest a last hurrah, almost, its silliness showing a decline in the power of this vision.

    China will be efficient but boring. People will get used to prosperity and then feel dissatisfied and unhappy with all the restraints and rules and boredom, and being a rich country won’t be so novel or exciting anymore (hedonic treadmill). Being based on a Western vision, it will follow a Western pattern of decline. People will get dissatisfied and restless. But for the moment, being prosperous is still too novel, and there is a sense that there is more to go in this direction, although China is a much less happy place already than it was 20 years ago.

    In the West, as the Enlightenment and Christianity – the two utopian millenarian movements that dream of a future perfection that will redeem the world – lose their grip on our imaginations, inreresting things will start happening.

  43. Tor597 says:
    @sh1pman

    Uyghur hysteria is 100% sour grapes that the west could not mobilize them to be suicide bombers against China.

    Muslims are not stupid despite what people here think. They see America bombing and overthrowing other countries. They see America be Isreals bitch.

    Why would they have a problem with Russia or China?

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  44. “Best of all, the global ummah has no issues whatsoever with China’s highly rational and enlightened policies in Xinjiang.”

    Good point. Interestingly Pompeo was just in Indonesia meeting with Muslim groups to try to stir up anger against China. Meanwhile just before his visit – Indonesia deported 3 Uighurs to China – who had fled to Indonesia and joined an ISIS linked group there. Of course Human Rights Watch had been trying to plead with Indonesia not to send them back to China. Indonesia – a majority Muslim country – is under no illusion as to what those militants are about and blew off Human Rights Watch and Pompeo.

  45. Tor597 says:
    @Znzn

    I don’t believe that. No doubt there is a lot of graft in China and no doubt market conditions are not the only factor in business. But the vast majority of business that is conducted in China is profitable.

    You can’t compare China which just built out a functional high speed rail system to America which has just spent billions talking about it and say the Chinese are so inefficient.

    This applies to the private sector too. Tesla has still not made a profit on its main business line and 80% of silicon Valley companies are not profitable.

  46. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I don’t think that means a lot, Muslims are shocking cowards and hypocrites, same with how many are now siding with Zionist Israel and leaving the Palestinians to their fate.

    Muslims only “stand up” to people who they see as so weak there’s absolutely zero chance they will fight back, which is basically Western Europeans, and even then Pakis will only attack a white Brit when it’s 20 on 1. A bigger group of cowards you wouldn’t find.

  47. Tor597 says:
    @Europe Europa

    Nice propaganda.

    China’s mistreatment of Muslims is pure hype. The west desperately wants to find a smoking gun to incite riots and they can’t find anything because China isn’t oppressing their muslims.

    White people “can’t get away with racism” mainly because the west choose to import millions of people from all over the world to be its underclass.

    If only whites would treat its minorities as well as the Chinese, blacks and Muslims would rejoice.

  48. @Tor597

    Why do chink shills go full SJW in relation to Western minorities?

    If only whites would treat its minorities as well as the Chinese, blacks and Muslims would rejoice.

    Me too, I wish we could put them all in camps as well.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  49. If France and Britain started dealing with their Muslim problem like China is in Xinjiang, would the world’s reaction to it be the same? I suspect not.

    The irony is I doubt even China would support France and Britain if they implemented the exact same policies in their own country, they would probably condemn it as genocidal and racist!

  50. @JSQ

    3) instead of importing foreign jihadists – Uighurs went to Afghanistan and Syria to train and learn militant Islam. They caused problems in other Muslim countries – so those countries don’t feel sorry for them. Younger ones are joining ISIS groups. See here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-uighurs-idUSKCN0PN1T820150713

    Those three were just deported – and the fourth was killed by Indonesian police in a shootout. You confuse Islamic countries and Sunni extremist groups. The extremist groups hate China too… The Muslim governments don’t.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  51. @Europe Europa

    In the end, the dollar/shekel/renminbi is king.

    With the exception if Iran, most other Islamic countries have very little human capital and are completely dependent on outsiders. Arabs are the worst for this, they get Europeans and now even Chinese to design their cities and buildings and get Subcontinental to do the physical labour. Hence they will always bend to the will of these outsiders.

    Muslims only “stand up” to people who they see as so weak there’s absolutely zero chance they will fight back, which is basically Western Europeans, and even then Pakis will only attack a white Brit when it’s 20 on 1. A bigger group of cowards you wouldn’t find.

    Contrary to the popular depictions of non-Europeans as strong (particularly blacks), most are actually quite weak, people in America are always surprised to learn that the average height of Whites is greater than the average height of blacks.

    This is why they always attack in packs and always ambush their victims, they also are in many cases weaker than European women so they have to resort to gang rape.

    • Replies: @128
  52. @Almost Missouri

    5) Afghanistan borders Xinjiang…. That’s how the Uighurs were learning militancy. That’s why China and Russia formed the SCO with all the “stans” in Central Asia.

    But in any event – its not as complicated. China pays for it’s oil and gas in cash. It doesn’t attack Muslim countries nor support insurgents in those countries. So China trades and invests in Saudi Arabia and mortal enemy Iran and neither side complains…

  53. 128 says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Wish you could send to memo to Constantinople in the year 640 as to how the Arabs are lacking in human capital.

  54. @AaronB

    Jews and Muslims lived quite harmoniously before the rise of Zionism and establishment of Israel, yes there were occasional problems, especially in Yemen, but nothing like the mass expulsion of the Jews from England and Spain. Even the great authority of Halakha and Talmud, Maimonides said that Christians are idolaters but Muslims are Monotheists like the Jews. I dont know how well you know the history of Jewish-Muslim relations, but I wouldnt say that theres an ancient feud and rivalry between Muslims and Jews. After all Ottomans welcomed all Sephardic Jewish refugees from the Europe, if they would have seen Jews as enemies, they wouldnt given asylum for them. There are some negative Hadiths about the Jews in Islam, but at least they are guaranteed some protection under Sharia, unlike Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians and the rest. Theres lots of historical evidence, that the Jews welcomed the Arabs as their liberators, when the Early Islamic Caliphate conquered Palestine and Syria. Its totally understandable, Roman Empire of the 7th century was an extremely anti-Judaistic place, same happened with those who didnt follow Chalcedonian forms of Christianity, they too welcomed Arabs as liberators from the Roman rule and the state church of the empire. Although I am a genuine fan of Christianity, I must state that in my opinion Christians got maybe little too crazy about the Christological problems in those times.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  55. @128

    They are lacking in human capital, this is made worse by the fact that they have lots of oil money so they have grown lazy. Why do the Arab countries score so low in national IQ scores despite being so rich? Arabs are a great way of validating the theory that national IQ has a genetic component to it, and even if you throw lots of money and infrastructure at a low IQ population, they will remain low IQ.

    • Replies: @128
  56. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Why do chink shills go full SJW in relation to Western minorities?

    It’s definitely not a level playing field. Rather than supporting the West dealing with their Muslim problem in the same manner, they tend to say it’s Western whites who are the brutal, genocidal racists and Chinese who are the real liberals and non-racists.

    I think they enjoy seeing white countries destroyed and race replaced, which is why they have SJW attitudes in regards to Western countries. They do not judge us and our position by their own standards.

    • Replies: @Anonlol
  57. @Europe Europa

    “I don’t think that means a lot, Muslims are shocking cowards and hypocrites, same with how many are now siding with Zionist Israel and leaving the Palestinians to their fate.”

    Actually – it has less to do with Israel and more to do with Iran. This is Sunni vs. Shia / Arab vs. Persian. The Sunni world is led by the Arabs. The Shia world is led by the Persians. The hatred is as deep as the Catholics and Protestants. The Saudis have a deep fear of Iran… So they are organizing their bloc to join with Israel and the US to fight Iran. They have lost Pakistan (to China) and Qatar (gone their own way) and are in the process of losing Yemen (to Iran)… So the Saudi Monarchy is very desperate. Will it backfire? Well we shall see. The last time they got desperate – we got “Operation Desert Storm”… Which ironically a decade later – let Iran gain influence in Shia majority Iraq.

  58. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    There are many Muslim countries that do not get much investment from China and have much closer relations with the west, like Morocco and Jordan, or fear Chinese influence, like Malaysia and Indonesia, still no Muslim country outside Turkey is showing any interest toward the Uyghurs and their problems, there arent even any grass roots movements in behalf of Uyghurs, which are surprisingly popular in the corrupt Islamic societies, only ones who are interested are radical Salafis and the Pan-Turanist fringe, even Turkey got silent after getting loans from China. Muslims are as well capable of popular grass root movements outside the governmental control, as any people on earth, as the Arab spring showed. Very few Islamic countries are truly totalitarian like Saudi Arabia, most are poor, chaotic and under a loose control of governmental institutions.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/chinas-36-billion-bailout-insulates-turkey-us

    https://thediplomat.com/2020/08/china-buys-turkeys-silence-on-uyghur-oppression/

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  59. Tor597 says:
    @Europe Europa

    I don’t think that means a lot, Anglos are shocking cowards and hypocrites, same with how many are now siding with Zionist Israel and leaving the Palestinians to their fate.

    Anglos only “stand up” to people who they see as so weak there’s absolutely zero chance they will fight back. Anglos pick the most cowardly route by focusing on divide and conquer and will only attack when it’s 20 on 1. A bigger group of cowards you wouldn’t find.

  60. @Tor597

    You’ve changed the word “Muslim” for “Anglo”, how clever and witty of you. Now maybe you could explain what that is actually supposed to mean?

  61. @Europe Europa

    What do you expect from an anti-White Chinese interloper?

    • Troll: Tor597
    • Replies: @Tor597
  62. @Ano4

    This is basically true, Westerners would be naive to believe that they could emulate how China is dealing with their Muslim problem and get away with it. The rules are not the same for everyone.

    In reality no one really cares that the French and British are under attack from their Muslims and other immigrants, especially outside the Western world. The common perception is that these old colonial powers are reaping what they’ve sown, and that basically it’s deserved.

    This mentality is very apparent even with a lot of the pro-Chinese and pro-Russian commenters on this blog alone, it’s very evident that they don’t judge themselves and “the West” by the same standards and rules of engagement.

    Truth is no one is going to the aid of people like the British and French, most of the world would be happy to stand by and watch them be wiped from history, support it even, even if they wouldn’t support the same happening in their own countries. There’s no fairness, there’s no equality. Just because China and Russia does it doesn’t mean “the West” can, at least not without starting WW3.

    If Britain and France did what China is doing in Xinjiang, emulated exactly the same policies, I have no doubt that countries like China and Russia would side against the British and French “fascists” and “racists” without any sense if irony what so ever.

    • Agree: Ano4
  63. 128 says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I really find it annoying how societies supposedly lacking in human capital, like the Mongols and Arabs, can consistently defeat societies that are a lot better in human capital, like the Greeks, Persians, and the Chinese.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @EldnahYm
  64. @128

    How Mongols supposedly lacked or lack a human capital? Per capita achievement level of Mongols and Tibetans is the best in whole Asia, probably in whole Eurasia, even with the most inhospitable climatic conditions with extremely arid lands, so arid that lands like Afghanistan and Scotland are like a fricking Eden in comparison, ha ha!

    Okay maybe Jews get the first place, but after that!

    • Replies: @128
    , @AltanBakshi
    , @nokangaroos
  65. AaronB says:
    @AltanBakshi

    It was very much a mixed bag. In the early years of Christianity, Islam was generally much more tolerant towards Jews than Christians, which is why Jews were more favorable to Muslims during this time. This trend reversed itself sometime around the Reformation, for Catholics as well.

    But there were many, many periods of persecution and humiliation of Jews, and even pogroms and forced conversions. Read some of the early European travelers about the conditions of Jews across the Muslim world. To be fair, there were also periods where Jews were treated well and rose to high positions. Maimonides also had some scathing things to say about how Muslims treated Jews in general.

    But even in the best of times, Jews were second class citizens. And that is the point – Muslims need to be “on top”. When they are, whenever everyone else is second class, they can be sometimes magnanimous. But it is the magnanimity of the lord to his inferior – they cannot accept others as equals. That is their peculuar pathology, and it comes from existential insecurity, obviously.

    What changed after Zionism was that Muslims developed those elements in their religion – and they had always existed – that were the Muslim version of apocalyptic antisemitism, the belief that Jews were the source of all evil and minions of Satan. These things always existed in their religion, but were now at the forefront.

    It was a response to the profound shock of being defeated by a people who they could only tolerate as their interiors. That, and the total Christian victory over Islam, while easier to bear as Christians have a history of defeating Muslims at least partially, destabilized and unbalanced an Islam world whose self image is predicated on a sense of superiority, on being on trend to dominate the world.

    I do believe Islam will transition away from this need to dominate or it will self-implode. It will either overcome the profound insecurity and weakness at its core it will mature.

  66. 128 says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Compare Mongolia in the year 1200 with Song China. According to here IQ of Mongolians is 5 points lower than Han Chinese, if we use Hong Kong as a proxy for Southern Chinese IQ, then the difference is 7 points.

    https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1P3-1280412201/iq-of-mongolians

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @Daniel Chieh
  67. 128 says:

    And what about Arabs vs. Persians and Greeks?

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  68. @AltanBakshi

    Not so arid, but very inhospitable, with huge variations in temperature between winters and summers, large areas of Tibet are extremely arid and cold, and almost all Mongolia is practically useless as a farming land, even Saudi Arabia and Yemen can support much larger population and grow something like Dates and wheat. But yep Tibetans are per capita bigger achievers than Mongols, its just unbelievable what they have achieved with those population densities, numerous walled towns, monastic universities, ancient castles, stupas, immense literary traditions, many strains of different competing philosophies, and 100 years ago there were just 2 million Tibetans and Greater Tibet is like 3 million square kilometers, monastic universities, bigger than ever seen in European history, Mount Athos, the greatest Christian monastic center ever, is a like a village in comparison, Tibetan Lamas were personal teachers of the Emperors of China beginning from the Yuan till the end of the last dynasty of China Qing. The immeasurable richness of literature, painting, statue making, calligraphy, traditional Tibetan medicine and medical research traditions, its mad what a nation of one or two millions on a bigger area than whole western Europe could achieve! Even nowadays there are just 5-6 million Tibetans, I often think why the culture of 200-300 million Bengalis or even some smaller Asian peoples is much much poorer in comparison to that courageous and spiritually rich nation.

  69. @AltanBakshi

    Even nowadays there are just 5-6 million Tibetans, I often think why the culture of 200-300 million Bengalis or even some smaller Asian peoples is much much poorer in comparison to that courageous and spiritually rich nation.

    Leaving aside genetics, the Tibetan biome is quite stunning so maybe that environment elicited some interesting reactions in the Tibetans and inspired them to pursue such cultural achievements?

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  70. @128

    5 points difference is not critical or crucial, like some here have written, in one generation Ireland jumped up much more in IQ tests. Hong Kong is a special case, and has immensely benefited from the brain drain from the Mainland during and after the Civil war and Cultural revolution, so its quite strange that they have just 2 points better IQ than the Huabei.

    Compare Mongolia with Song China in the year 1200? Yes there was probably less than one million Mongols and at least 60-70 millions Chinese in the Song, so? Song even had advantageous terrain, rivers and mountains, actually nowhere in Europe land is not as suitable for defensive land warfare, maybe just Southern Switzerland and Norway, but not in such scale. You dont do much with horses there. Song even had superiority in military technology. I must say that regarding military matters and strategy I dont have much faith in Nanfangren.

    If your case of lesser human capital is build upon 5 points difference in the IQ, then your case is weak and fanatically IQ deterministic, not in connection with the reality, nor with the historical reality and/or realities.

  71. @AltanBakshi

    Given that a measly 1.5M Chechens spread terror from the Pyrenees to the Tienshan they almost rival the YKW. Almost.

    As for “Mongols”, Temujin´s (“of the grey-eyed Kyuts”) color revolution was not the first (that dubious honor goes to the Nika uprising 532AD) but it´s still fun to see random guys on Stormfront mistake the flag of Kazakhstan for a UN conspiracy 😀
    – Chinese tradition has it the Xiung-nu (“barbarians of the north”, Huns) were Chinese princes banished for recycling their deceased father´s concubines (instead of burning them alongside).
    I do believe there is such a thing as “too civilized” 😛

  72. @Mr. XYZ

    I went to duckduckgo and put in “OIC report on Xinjiang.” and got these among a host of others

    Curious Record on Xinjiang- OIC (Organisation of Islamic …
    Search domain http://www.bitul.in/international-relation/curious-record-on-xinjiang-oic-organisation-of-islamic-cooperation/

    Organisation of Islamic Cooperation ‘commends’ China for …
    Search domain hongkongfp.com/2019/03/14/organisation-islamic-cooperation-commends-china-treatment-muslims/https://hongkongfp.com/2019/03/14/organisation-islamic-cooperation-commends-china-

    Human Rights Watch was not happy.

    A Missed Opportunity to Protect Muslims in China | Human …
    Search domain http://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/21/missed-opportunity-protect-muslims-chinahttps://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/21/missed-opportunity-protect-muslims-china
    China’s repressive Xinjiang campaign was a key test of whether the OIC will take strong and decisive steps to put pressure on an increasingly powerful China to end its systemic abuses. It failed

    But the Chinese were.

    China lauds OIC’s resolution on Xinjiang
    Search domain http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/440060-china-lauds-oic-s-resolution-on-xinjianghttps://www.thenews.com.pk/print/440060-china-lauds-oic-s-resolution-on-xinjiang
    BEIJING: A spokesman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry Lu Kang has lauded the resolution on Xinjiang, adopted at the 46th session of the Council of Foreign Minister of the Organization of Islamic..

    To me it looks as though the OIC has investigated and satisfied itself that the stories coming out of Washington are just that – stories. The rest don’t want to investigate and keep crying: “Foul!”

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  73. @128

    The Shia´t Ali (no matter the rationalizations) was above all the Persian uprising against Arab barbarism, racial and cultural.
    Hellenism was much the same, maybe more syncretist.
    Or Graecism in Rome.
    Ceteris paribus the hungrier will win, followed by backlash.

    It´s not IQ, it is the Law of Life:
    Having it all makes you soft in the noggin, the upper arm and the pipi.
    (I know Haeckel and Gibbon put it more elegantly 😀 )

  74. @Znzn

    Let us just come up with a percentage. What percentage of Chinese private enterprises are operating efficiently, that is converting capital into productive uses? What percentage of Chinese state owned enterprises do the same? I think that no one here can really come up with an honest answer.

    Whatever the answer is in numerical terms, one can be quite certain that if China were really failing Washington would not be so worried. As it is; they seem to be hysterical! I suggest you go to YouTube and look at some of the vintage films of China pre-PRC and then look at some more modern accounts of China, even the hostile ones. The progress is not all a mirage. Better still, if you can, go and look for yourself.

  75. You all are looking at the purported Uighur paradox from a false premise. Muslims don’t really care about dead Muslims and kill Muslims all the time. It’s like Black Lives Matter where they obviously don’t to anyone really, least of all blacks. And Muslims care even less about other Muslims being killed, since at least the blacks are a bit anguished when it is mainly whites doing the killing. They are concerned about the ‘disrespect’ first and foremost. The past “wave” of attacks (really only a few stabbings botched or otherwise) were precipitated by admittedly insulting images of an Arab male labeled as their prophet. Now the depiction in itself wouldn’t be so insulting if the figures were not drawn stereotypically ugly and impotent. While blasphemous, if the prophet were depicted as a largely endowed Chaddam quite literally cucking the West I’m sure there would have been some titillation and tsk-tsks but it would have blown over as a grudging admiration of Arab virility and prowess. Similarly Muslims don’t mind being killed and blown up so long as there is respect paid to their “martialdom.” They await 72 virgins after all. So they cannot be expected to pay particular heed to some Asiatic mutts who happen to worship at the same altar and are likely going to heaven ahead of schedule anyway if they are not being gainfully employed and housed.

    • LOL: Ano4
  76. @Europe Europa

    This is arrant rubbish. The majority of the “Terrorist attacks” in the west are false flag events. Almost without exception the secret services were aware of the people involved and did nothing to stop them if they did not help them prepare. For example in the Nice massacre a German film maker “Just happened” to be on the beach, filming, when the “Terrorist” drove his truck into the crowd. A week later the same man “Just happened to be” filming, in the shopping mall in Munich when the next “Terrorist attack took place.

    Britain and the US got the Saudi Arabian royal family to finance the construction of mosques in Britain and the sending of Wahabist missionaries to preach Jihad in them. (Probably in other places as well, at a guess.) If Britain wanted to emulate the Chinese treatment of the Jihadists in Britain the first thing to do would be the throw out the missionaries. And then it would help to have a policy of finding useful work for the immigrants’ young men, but that would mean finding work for British young too and that is not part of the agenda.

    The whole Xinjiang oppressed Muslims story is patently, obviously BS, as who can believe that Pompeo cares about anyone being oppressed and if he does, why is he not concerned about the millions of homeless citizens of the USA, the Palestinians, the inmates of Gitmo, to name but a very few of the candidates for his sympathy?

  77. Anonlol says:
    @Europe Europa

    “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

  78. Blade says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Are you saying Russia committed genocide in Grozny?

  79. France and US wanted Chechen “freedom fighters”. Both got exactly what they wanted: “fighters” who keep fighting, blowing up Boston marathon in one case, beheading a teacher in the other. In some ways life is remarkably just and simple: be careful what you ask for, your wish might be granted.

    • Thanks: Showmethereal
  80. @Znzn

    Michael Pettis bring up the problems of massive inefficiencies in things like housing, transportation, or corporate and household debt in China.

    Michael Pettis predicted in 2011 that the Chinese economy would crash by 2014. Yet to happen.

    Some Predictions for the Rest of the Decade
    Aug 29, 2011
    By Michael Pettis

    By 2013-14 Chinese GDP growth will slow sharply, and by 2015-16 predictions of a sustained period of growth rates at 3% or lower will no longer seem outlandish.

    I don’t expect a significant growth slow-down until after the new leadership takes power in late 2012, but my guess (and hope) is that by 2013 the stubborn refusal of consumption to rise as share of GDP, and the continuing surge in debt, will have convinced all but the most recalcitrant that China needs a dramatic change of policy. The longer we wait, the more debt there will be and the more pressure there will be on Beijing to use household wealth transfers to service the debt.

    The Chinese economy has a lot of problems. Any fool can point out there are problems. But how do the problems compare to the strengths? Michael Pettis wasn’t able to perform the more intricate analysis of weighing strengths versus weaknesses and coming up with a good estimate.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @128
  81. EldnahYm says:
    @128

    Modern warfare tends to require a large amount of human capital, because of industrial/technological reasons. Not so with pre-modern warfare.

  82. EldnahYm says:
    @Tor597

    Anglos, the world’s biggest cowards managed to conquer a quarter of the world’s territory. That doesn’t say much for the rest of the world. You are beyond delusional.

  83. Svevlad says:

    Well, we (Serbians) warned ’em. Now that mess is their own to take care of, and have no doubt about it that casualties will be in the billions.

  84. Tor597 says:
    @Europe Europa

    Quit playing such the victim.

    Russia and China get to play by a different set of rules because they have not placed multiculturalism at the center of their society like the west has.

    I don’t see how either Russia or China are treating their Muslims worse than the west. In fact they are probably treating their minorities better.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  85. @Tor597

    What are you then? Are you another white who lives in South-East Asia and shills for the Chinese from there like Goddess Roberts? Even Roberts doesn’t cry about the West’s mistreatment of its minorities however, as you have done on this thread, usually it is hostile anti-White Chinese who play this SJW card, as everyone with at least one brain cell knows that SJW shit it just anti-White and the Chinese sure do love mentioning this sort of stuff.

  86. @128

    Song had many, many more problems than “Mongols.” That is a huge oversimplification of what going on: see the Jin dynasty. Its also hard to argue that Genghis and his generals were not one of a kind.

    • Replies: @128
  87. @SZ

    That’s close to my pet theory. My sense is that Europe is flooded with surplus young middle eastern men (2nd or 3rd sons) whose families couldn’t afford a dowry for them, and so have sent them to the west in hopes of striking it rich.

    However, many of those young men arrive in the west and struggle to integrate or find work. To make matters worse, everyday they see beautiful, sensual and happy young western women who will forever be out of their reach due to their own cultural taboos. These young men become increasingly sexually frustrated and eventually that frustration overwhelms and they lash out becoming rapists and/or suicide in the name of Allah in hopes of getting their choice of virgins in paradise.

  88. SveVid says:
    @Europe Europa

    Absolutely correct….they’re the definition of a pack animal

  89. Levtraro says:
    @Europe Europa

    This is basically true, Westerners would be naive to believe that they could emulate how China is dealing with their Muslim problem and get away with it. The rules are not the same for everyone.

    Europe has recently imported muslims from Africa and other 3rd world places to reduce the cost of wages and to rejuvenate her aging population whereas China and Russia have muslims living in their territory for centuries. Completely different situations. Same rules don’t apply.

  90. Yevardian says:
    @Shortsword

    Hundreds of thousands of Syriac and Melchite Christians from the Levant emigrated to South America over the decades. Now they have all almost totally assimilated, with many of them rising to the top levels of Latin-American society.
    With ‘Arabs’ at least, the problem obviously isn’t HBD, but that most of them follow the stupidest and most violent of all major religions.

  91. Yevardian says:
    @Levtraro

    Twelver Shi’ism did not originate from Iran, in fact when the (Turkic) Safavids imposed Shi’ism on the country in the 16th Century; there were so few Shi’i scholars and theologians in Iran they had to be mass-imported from Southern Iraq. There’s a case to be made it’s slightly less retrogade than mainstream Sunnism, but that’s really not saying much.

    Although yes, Shamir and ‘Saker’s’ Islamophilia makes them impossible to take seriously.

    • Replies: @Levtraro
  92. 128 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The Jin also had considerably better human capital than the Mongols, considering that they basically had the Han Chinese run civil service servants running the country for them. The Jin were basically equivalent to Wei and Jin (the one run by the Simas), and Wei and the Jin had no problems dealing with the Xiongnu, until the Jin had a civil war.

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  93. 128 says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    His contention is that China is exaggerating its growth rate by not writing down non productive assets like empty buildings and conventions centres, or underused airports etc, which makes sense logically at least (basically they are not expensing depreciation properly, thus artificially boosting assets and income), I visited eastern China a couple of years ago and Harbin, and saw rows and rows of unused residential properties and condos. And what about the increase in Chinese debt relative to GDP since 2008, does that not show that China is getting less and less efficient converting capital into output? Or else why would Chinese the debt to GDP ratio triple from 2008 to 2020?

  94. @Levtraro

    The principles are the same, you have a majority population persecuting (I am not against persecution of outgroups, but you will have to admit what China is doing would be classified as persecution if the West was doing it to their Muslims) a minority population. The majority population is also the dominant one in both cases.

    The fact that the Uighurs are native to China while the Third World Muslims in the West are not is actually something which bolsters the argument that Europeans have more of a right to do to Muslims what China is is doing to its Uighurs, because the Muslims in the West have the option to leave the country for their Muslim homelands while the ones who are staying in the West have to undergo a sort of voluntary cultural genocide against them, the Uighurs meanwhile do not have this option to leave for a homeland as the persecution is being done in their historic homeland itself.

    In the end it all comes down to anti-White hate and all these countries would cry fascist and racist if we were to do the same because they want our race’s downfall.

    The onus thus lies on the Europeans to not give a damn about what hostile outgroups say about us, sadly we do care and this is our weakness.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  95. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Nearly all Serbs are unfortunately cucked (not as bad as Christian Zionists and Evangelicals) and clueless when it comes to Jews/Zionists.

    I’m not sure how this problem can be fixed really.

  96. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    The best way to remedy that would be for Serbian patriots to pay close attention to what is happening in Western Europe and follow Western politics deeply so that they can inform their countrymen of what the globalists and Zionists have in stock for them.

    And I don’t think Serbians are actually that “cucked”, they certainly don’t have these weird ethno-masochist and Islamophilic tendencies like those which are common in the West.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  97. Ian Smith says:

    The more I see Muslims and Jews and their behavior, the better I feel about Christianity. France needs to regain the spirit of Charles Martel, Roland, and Louis IX.

  98. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    pay close attention to what is happening in Western Europe and follow Western politics deeply so that they can inform their countrymen of what the globalists and Zionists have in stock for them.

    Yep.

    The problem is that there’s a specific Balkan, historical and geopolitical context that Serbs (“Serbian” is a civic term while Serb is ethnic) are located in and have to navigate. Jews/Zionists don’t feature in this besides as a vague and distant foreign element that strongly influences and controls US, EU and NATO policy towards Serbs.

    Realizing that Jews played a very large role in the media demonization, dirty propaganda and NATO aggression against Serbs in 1995 and 1999 was what got me the most.

    And I don’t think Serbians are actually that “cucked”, they certainly don’t have these weird ethno-masochist

    You’d be quite disappointed if you knew more.

    Although not as bad as West Europeans and Anglo-Americans of course, but that’s a really low bar to beat.

  99. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Also, I think there’s too much emphasis in Western right wing movements on the idea that Russia and even China are going to come to our aid eventually. They’re not, they’re more likely to side with the third world invaders.

    If civil war/race war broke out in Western Europe, I would not put it past the Russians and Chinese to enter on the side of the invaders as some sort of “anti-fascist” force against the “racist” Western whites.

    Actually Russia has previous for that sort of thing, albeit as the Soviet Union. The ANC/anti-Apartheid terrorists in South Africa were trained, armed and funded by the Soviets, and the “civil rights” movement in the US was backed and funded by the Soviets as well.

    Whether post-Soviet Russia would do that is debatable, but Russia is part of BRICS, so that suggests that their attitudes haven’t changed much at all because obviously South Africa is run by the ANC and currently engaged in a Zimbabwe-style land grab agenda, and Russia by implication supports this.

    • Replies: @Eugene Norman
  100. @128

    Increasing level of personal of debt is fine if your wages are increasing. Why do they do it? House buying mostly, like everywhere else.

  101. @Europe Europa

    Russians won’t invade Europe on behalf of “invaders” – the only likely candidate is Turkey. If you mean on behalf of immigrants, not a hope would that be popular in Russia.

    China has no capability of extending to Europe and no desire too. They really aren’t hostile to Europe at all, rather the US. Were they wiser they would be courting European nationalists.

  102. Interesting.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  103. @AaronB

    To call Christianity Utopian is to torture the term to the point it has no meaning. If Christianity, which posits that Humanity and the World are fatally flawed such that universally just conduct is literally impossible and thus in need of divine redemption, then literally every worldview which has an optimal outcome is Utopian (which is all of them).

    And Christianity losing its hold on the public psyche is the cause of the decline rather than the solution, and like in every decline where there is a return to suffering there will be a spiritual revival. But how interesting that a jew will never fail to attach the jewish bugbear of “muh backward Christians” to the source of any problem, even when the source of the problem was literally formulated to be Christianity’s antithesis. Enlightenment theology is much more like talmudic judaism than it is like Christianity, and not just in that they were intentionally opposed to Christianity since their inception.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AltanBakshi
  104. Ano4 says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Just another day in the Cités. After the fighting between the Chechen and the Beurs this summer everyone should have understood that there are areas in France that are not under French government control. And it will just become worse in the coming decades.

  105. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    When and to whom did Clark say this? Any links? I see this quote all over the web, but never with a date /occasion/publication.

    (Of course Kosovo became a lot less multi-ethnic after NATO intervention)

  106. @128

    His contention is that China is exaggerating its growth rate by not writing down non productive assets like empty buildings and conventions centres, or underused airports etc

    He made the argument several years after his prediction of a crash occurring in 2014 did not pan out. I have trouble following the argument about the exaggeration of growth rate. As he is regarded as an expert on the Chinese economy it would be costly to his credibility to be so off the mark in the doomsday prediction he made in 2011. His motivation to protect his credibility leads me to suspect his writing is unclear because it doesn’t make sense.

    Can you breakdown his contention further? Does exaggerate mean fake numbers? If it means something else, how does the exaggeration of growth rate continue for several years despite the predicted reckoning in 2014? How does exaggeration if it continued into 2019 square with robust consumer economy data?

    Or else why would Chinese the debt to GDP ratio triple from 2008 to 2020?

    Roughly it went from 150% in 2008 to 250% in 2014 to 300% in 2019. It had become stabilized during the worst of the trade war but is now surging again due to covid. Growth has been in the last few years more reliant on productivity gains.

    • Replies: @128
  107. AaronB says:
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Christians believe redemption is a historical process. It will take place in time. And that perfection in time is our goal. Hope – a future looking attitude – is a primary Christian virtue. Christianity is a time-based religion. The Enlightenment just took that basic framework and made it secular. Redemption is now a secular historical process. I admit I prefer the Christian version. And I certainly don’t think Christianity is primitive. Its one of the world’s most sophisticated and subtle theologies, and it contains deep mythological truths, like the Fall. It just made a fundamental error about the nature of man and his place in nature, and the reality of time and the existence of of individual objects, although one that is not entirely absent from other traditions.

    Buddhism and Taoism don’t believe the above.

    One, they don’t believe history is a process moving toward redemption. They think what we see as imperfections are an illusion. They see history as having no purpose and no goal. Actually, they see the world as already and always in a state of redemption. We only have to wake up to this fact. Our sense of being a separate self that needs to be “redeemed” is the primary illusion we must awaken from. Buddhist Awakening is from the dream of a separate self thrust into a hostile world that is fundamentally alien, from the dream that one has an imperfect seperate self that needs to be redeemed, that one has a seperate self whose imperfections must be overcome.

    It is awakenkng from the dream of progress – either individual or collective. It is unhistorical at its core.

    Christians think redemption lies in the future. It is a time-based religion with hope as a primary virtue. Buddhists and Taoists think we are already redeemed in a timeless Now, and have only to wake up to that. They do not believe time is real and do not put their faith in the future. They do not believe seperate objects are real so individual self-improvement is not the goal – one must only Awaken to this to be liberated.

    The reason Asians have been spared the radical social revolutions of the West is because of this sense that seperate objects are an illusion and that we already exist in a state of redemption in a timeless Now. Politics are practical adjustments for local problems, not revolutionary attempts to redeem humanity.

    The social order isn’t invested with the same importance- it does not represent divine order (logos) as it does in Christianity. The social order, and morality, are practical arrangements. Someone who dislikes the social order can merely retreat from it without feeling like he is in a state of sin. He doesn’t have to establish his private preferences as the social norm in order to feel they are legitimate. Consequently the social space is less contested, and viewed without ideology, but from a practical angle.

    As for a “solution”, the tradional Catholic or Orthodox version of supernatural redemption is certainly preferable to Enlightenment idea of secular redemption, as it at least contains very healthy pessimism about human life. And I can imagine versions of Christianity that are very healthy, based on the negative theology of the mystics.

    Alan Watts wrote a book about how Christianity can be a massive “upaya” – Buddhist skillful means – to reach awakening about the nature of man and the world, and become a religion of joy in the world as it is without the need for redemption.

    But taken at face value, the Christian notion of redemption in time has led and continues to lead to futile social experiments that cause much suffering.

    So, perhaps a modified Christianity will serve our purposes.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @AaronB
  108. 128 says:
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    I don’t have enough data to prove otherwise, but what he says makes logical sense. If growth is reliant on productivity gains, would not debt to GDP remain stable, since the amount of output require in order to be turned into input would stay stable. He does not say exaggerate in terms of outright fabrication of numbers faking, he says that much of Chinese investment goes into non-productive uses nowadays, but then those bad investments are not recognized and written off properly, hence GDP growth is exaggerated, like how a company can boost its income and assets if it fails to record depreciation properly. Basically his claim (who knows really) is that say the provincial authorities target 5 percent GDP growth, so what the underlings do is fund the building of empty stadiums and conventions centres that no one uses, so that GDP still grows by 5 percent, but that investment is basically wasted into non-productive ventures just to keep up the economic growth figures.

  109. 128 says:

    He is arguing that China’s real GDP growth should be official GDP growth less the amount written off for non-productive investments.

  110. @YetAnotherAnon

    Clark allegedly said this during an interview with CNN in 1999. I can’t find the actual interview anywhere but I have found two secondary sources, the first is the Southern Poverty Law Center

    Kosovo and the Far Right

    At the same time, in Serbia and around Europe, people demonstrating against the NATO attacks have included large numbers of neo-Nazis, and many have been seen giving fascist salutes. There are also reports of European neofascists making their way to Serbia to fight for President Milosevic. Some extreme-right Web sites have called for volunteers.

    Beam, like the Belgrade-based Serbian Hammerskins and other far-right organizations here and abroad, is especially angered by remarks attributed to NATO’s supreme commander, Gen. Wesley Clark: “There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th-century idea and we are trying to transition it into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states.”

    Then you have the neoconservative foreign affairs magazine The National Interest

    In Defence of Nationalism

    To complicate matters further, there are influential intellectual trends in the advanced world that deny the legitimacy of nationalism altogether as an atavistic concept. Their adherents regard nationalism as an obstacle to human rights, international harmony and economic rationality. They accordingly seek to reduce the scope of national sovereignty in international affairs, transferring power upwards to global bodies and downwards to ethnic and other subgroups. Both President Bill Clinton and Prime Minister Tony Blair justified their Kosovo intervention in terms not simply of halting ethnic cleansing, but of defending the positive principle of multi-ethnic statehood. And General Wesley Clark stated flatly: “There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states” (emphasis added).

  111. @AltanBakshi

    I dont think Turkey was “bought” by China. They still argue because when countries like Malausia and Thailand and Indonesia deport Uighurs to China they are usually found with Turkish passports. Why? Turkey has been using them as militants to fight – most recently in Syria and Libya nd now Armenia. They are hired guns for Turkey… That is why Turkey doesnt complain. They have been outted too many times – so nobody beoieves their “concern”

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  112. @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    You are extremely correct that Christianity is no at all Utopian ideology and only divine intervention will restore and redeem our world from the fallen state, but traditional apostolic Christianity does believe that individuals can achieve perfected and Christlike state in our world before death. Of course not by alone but in Synergy with the God. There has always been such individuals in the Orthodox and Miaphysite churches. They are the monks of Great Angelic Schema or Schema monks, they literally are walking icons of the lord Jesus Christ.

    Judaism on the other hand truly believes that there will be a Messianic era when this world will be perfected, in Christianity we already live in Messianic era, for the Christ has come and he has gained victory over death and established his Kingdom of Heaven, which is beyond this world(but accessible by faith and good deeds), all Christians are citicens of that Kingdom, or De Civitate Dei, as St Augustine called it. So one knows very little about real Christianity if one claims Christianity to be Utopian.

    https://orthodoxwiki.org/Schemamonk

    • Agree: Ano4
  113. @AaronB

    Here we go again! I dont even bother anymore to disprove one by one your utter falsehoods, but Alan Watts, ha ha, oh well explains much about you, and your knowledge of Dharma, he isnt any authority of Buddhism and was a former Anglican priest, yes he really is one who can explain Buddhist terms to someone!

    Hey all people dont listen this guys bullshit about Buddhism or Christianity, we are a salvation based religion, we do believe that the basic state of existence is painful, that the world is full of suffering, we do believe in causality and that everything happens for a reason. This nihilistic ass is again blabbering nonsense. The first noble truth, the literal first Aryan truth in our religion is that the common existence is Dukkha, stressful, uneasy, that nothing satisfies permanently.

    The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning “sky,” “ether,” or “space,” was originally the word for “hole,” particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan’s vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, “having a good axle hole,” while duhkha meant “having a poor axle hole,” leading to discomfort.

    “Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.”

    — SN 56.11 Buddha

    Here the famous Ten Oxherding pictures, a common teaching method in Zen/Chan, quite same as Tibetan monkey and elephant painting.

    I specifically put a Zen teaching method here, because you and probably Ano4, think that its goals or fundaments are somehow different from the rest of the Buddhadharma, when its just the means which are somewhat different and only occasionally.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Ano4
  114. @Showmethereal

    Of course Anatolian turks will continue their conundrums, but not anymore as openly as before.

  115. AaronB says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Well, yeah, the first noble truth is that life is suffering. And the way out of that is to stop clinging to anything in life, including your sense of being an individual separate from everything else.

    Your desire to achieve self-perfection is the source of your suffering, Altan, and depends on the illusion that you are a separate self. In reality, you are part of a larger whole, which is perfect. Which means, my dear angry Buddhist, that your very imperfections are necessary for the perfection of the larger whole. You are perfect in your imperfections 🙂 So relax. Where are you rushing to so frantically?

    Buddhism means giving up a notion of being a separate self. How can something nonexistent then perfect itself?

    But no matter, and dont worry. Practically no one on this site, or in the larger world, can “hear” what I am saying. The Negative Way goes so against the grain of common sense which traps people in Samsara that it is incomprehensible to the majority.

    Buddhism is an extremely simple and lucid doctrine. But it is the Negative Way. Buddha himself said his doctrine will scarcely be comprehensible in two thousand years. And the author of the best book on the negative way ever written said that when the ordinary man hears negative way he mocks it.

    You are probably smarter than me, and certainly more erudite than me. I have forgotten most of what I used to know anyways. But wisdom and erudition stand in the way of spirituality. As that same author said, the common man adds to his knowledge each day, the sage unlearns something each day.

    So cast away your book learning and your wisdom, Altan 🙂

    As for Alan Watts, one of the geniuses of the 20th century. I avoided him for too long because of his reputation for being a pop philosopher. He himself said that even though he was discussing so called hidden traditions that weren’t meant to be publicly broadcast, the dull serious people of the world would simply label him superficial, which would put a kind of seal of secrecy over him. And thats what happened. Watts is hiding in plain sight.

    So you have nothing to worry about in me. Most people cannot hear what I am saying, and it cannot be otherwise, nor should it be otherwise.

  116. 128 says:

    What is the minimum IQ needed for a modern functioning state? The mid to low 80s? For example, when you go to Indonesia, the Philippines, or Algeria, the basic things work well, you have functioning public transportation, a functioning power grid and internet, and well functioning air lines and shipping lines. South Africa has an IQ of 70, most of its roads seem to be in still good shape, and it has good bus services, although its rail and airline service is slowing falling apart, as is its power grid.

  117. @Europe Europa

    Please articulate what China is doing with the Uighurs that the west would not be able to get away with? Forcing them to learn the national language and take civics classes..?? Explain. Or you really believe the garbage about concentration camps?

  118. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    TL:DR version:

    Christians believe in supernatural redemption in time. The Enlightenment took that idea and made it secular. Both believe history is moving towards redemption/perfection. That is utopian.

    Other traditions believe we already exist in a redeemed state in a timeless Now. One’s only goal is to Awaken to that fact, to be liberated from the illusion. The most refined versions say the illusion does not dissipate, it is merely recognized, and seen as a form of play.

    Some traditions – like Norse myth – think history is moving towards tragedy and the final victory of chaos and monsters. The Aztecs thought only human sacrifice kept the destruction of the world at bay, and that eventually would fail.

    There are many options humans might take. The Christian millenarian one has led to the spectacular history of Europe with all its progress, but also mass suffering and ruin. And has blighted the lives of countless individuals who put their faith in the future and lost the joys of life.

  119. @AltanBakshi

    The irony is that being a part kf several Chinese dyansties helped Tibetan Buddhism to be spread. As you noted Tibetan Llamas were features in Chinese imperial courts. Truth be told though the Zen schools of Buddhism were more prominent. I wouldnt say the Tibetans are more culturaly rich than Mongols. In fact when you check back they have inter mixing centuries ago. Mongols indeed had a differemt focus. Tibetan Buddhism is more cohesive than the “spiritism” practiced by Mongols. But Tibetans history is just as bloody as that of the Mongols. The Mongols were just better at conquering. Neither is better or worse. Just different.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  120. 128 says:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/stupid-people/

    And regarding this, as to how inaccurate IQ and achievements are, if you look at this you would expect Italy, Sweden, and Russia, or even Germany, to really underperform Japan and Korea, but you see this is not the case in terms of things like cars or armaments, in fact, if you base it on real world achievements, you would get the impression that the European countries have the same talent pool as the East Asian countries.

  121. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    In all seriousness – what is more interesting about Tibetan culture as opposed to Mongols..?? I mean even their tribal dances look similar. Tibetans are just more interesting in the west because of media focus. I dont see anything “superior”. Aside from the dances the regalia worn by the locals can look similar as well. You can visit a Mongol yurt just as beautiful as any structure you will see in Tibetan areas.
    I wont pretend to know enough about Bengali culture to compare though – lol.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  122. There are the Western “muh free speech” Big Brains (who don’t even follow their own ideology – as per above, draw a cartoon about actually protected groups – report back when out of jail)

    That’s a valid point, of course. As Ayatollah Khamenei pointed out:

    And questioning the hegemonic narrative of jewish civilian casualties in WW2 is not the same as actively mocking/ deriding someone else’s religious beliefs — it’s merely stating that you don’t share those beliefs, and don’t want those beliefs forced on you without evidence, under a system of ostensible “religious freedom.” (Or in the case of France, aggressive secularism). But if you exhibit any signs of doubting the state-mandated religion of Holocaustianity — let alone heresy, apostasy, or blasphemy … you go to prison for up to five years.

    But there’s another layer to it. As Glenn Greenwald pointed out a few years ago the first time that the Charlie Hebdo hate cartoons were first heavily promoted by the “news” media:

    “Central to free speech activism has always been the distinction between defending the right to disseminate Idea X and agreeing with Idea X, one which only the most simple-minded among us are incapable of comprehending.”

    But the response to the CH cartoons seemed to be based on:

    “a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself.”

    This is not a trivial distinction. It’s literal binary thinking; everything that is not forbidden is mandatory. And when it comes to mocking what others hold sacred…
    Analogy: you can believe that it should be legal to tell your neighbor “Hey Joe, your mother is a whore” — and believe that there’s nothing wrong with inviting him over for dinner to tell him so — but for the government to endorse that statement, and to broadcast “Joe’s mother is a whore” to the entire country:

    https://www.rt.com/news/504234-french-charlie-hebdo-homage-teacher-mohammed/

    “Cartoons from the French satirical weekly newspaper Charlie Hebdo were projected on the facades of buildings across France to mark a national day of mourning in honor of slain teacher Samuel Paty.”

    Is something else entirely. (Whether Joe kicked your ass for calling his mother a whore or not is entirely irrelevant). Imagine if Holycost fact-checking was not only legal, but the French Government was projecting cartoons mocking Anne Frank on buildings all over France… the mind boggles. It would be like anuddah shoah all over again.

    The ongoing epidemic of Christophobic hate crimes in France is nothing new. But if this hatred of Christ and Christians has anything to do with the cartoons mocking Islam, they’re attacking the wrong target. Charlie Hebdo’s vitriolic hatred — and that of their biggest fans — is motivated by toxic semitism, not Catholicism. (Though it’s possible that the longstanding institutional Christophobia of the post-Jacobin French secular state may play a role as well, by expanding to incorporate Islam as an additional target).

    Charlie Hebdo is notorious for spewing at least as much virulent [NSFW], unreasoning hatred at Christ and Christians as at Islam [NSFW], btw.

    • Agree: Ano4
  123. 128 says:

    And as for sub saharan African, they (some) clearly know how to fly planes, most can drive a tank, and understand the concept of a pincer attack, as seen in the Zulu Wars.

  124. @128

    My rule of thumb is 100 to advance civilization, 85 to maintain civilization, at 70 with no significant cognitive elite you regress.

    … if you base it on real world achievements, you would get the impression that the European countries have the same talent pool as the East Asian countries.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/salon-demographics/

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  125. scg16121 says:
    @sh1pman

    One possibility is that they don’t really look at the Uyghurs as real muslims. I don’t think they really see the Nation Of Islam muslims as real muslims either.

  126. Ano4 says:
    @AltanBakshi

    I specifically put a Zen teaching method here, because you and probably Ano4, think that its goals or fundaments are somehow different from the rest of the Buddhadharma, when its just the means which are somewhat different and only occasionally

    Hey, where did I write that the goal of Ch’an is different from the goals of other Buddhist schools ?

    The methods are somewhat different, they are more suited for particular type of character and people of particular psychological inclinations, but so are all skillful means.

    You feel at home in Vajrayana, I feel in the Ch’an, to each his own.

    And please, do not put me in the same category as our friend AaronB, this is kind of upsetting for me and probably also for AaronB.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  127. @128

    The rail system in South Africa is falling apart because of constant theft of railway and cables. People take the metal to sell it. The problem is crime in this case. How does intelligence relate to crime? Most of sub-Saharan Africa is significantly less criminal than South Africa without having higher IQ.

  128. @Showmethereal

    Tribal dances, how one can be such a condescending jackass… Mystery Tsam its called, its of Tibetan origin as are many Mongolian cultural practices. I have lived both among Mongols and Tibetans, and you clearly know nothing, Tibetan culture is less bloody and less violent than Mongolian and has been at least one thousand years. Its not very common for young Tibetans to get all smashed from booze(and eat some buuza) and then wrestle or fight with others. You dont find a lots of ancient architecture in Mongolic areas unlike in Tibet, theres a huge difference between a yurt and Tibetan house, I for some fucking reason think that a stone or a brick house is more representative of an architecture than a fucking tent, [REDACTED]. And for some odd and unimaginable reason I prefer to live in a house than in a tent.

    “Spiritism,” oh well your knowledge regarding the topic is clearly on the level of western man of the 18th Century. When people here discuss intricacies of global economy or US elections I dont start arguing with them because I know that great many here know much, much, more about those matters than I do.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  129. @Showmethereal

    The Great Yuan and the Great Qing were not Hanren dynasties, but yes China was part of their territory. Among Han Chinese dynasties only Ming helped Tibetan Buddhism and mainly just the Karma Kagyu school. So there is no irony outside of your cloudy mind, but then the weather has been quite misty for last days.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  130. @Ano4

    Okay, then which of the Ten pictures resembles the most of your current state? Please be honest!

  131. @Anatoly Karlin

    Why ancestors of modern day Iraqis and Egyptians could advance civilization, but now they can just maintain it?

    Modern Egyptians have more Sub Saharan admixture than ancient Egyptians had, so that explains at least partly something, but what about Iraqis and Afghans then? But ancient Iraq had the best possible terrain for early agriculture, so that at least possibly and partly explains something. Still the question of Afghanis and Iranians is not explained, both countries are comparatively more arid and have been more arid than countries of Europe, with extremely high variations in altitude and with mountainous topography. One of the earliest civilizations was born in the lands of Khorasan; North Eastern Iran, Northern Afghanistan and Southeast Turkmenistan, the so called Bactria-Margiana archeological complex, from those ancient times of 2000 BC till 1000 AD its a historical and undisputable fact that the people of Iranian lands have advanced human civilization. Same by the way with the Syria, which also is part of the cradle of civilization, but lacked great rivers like Nile and Eufrat.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @EldnahYm
    , @SZ
  132. @techvet

    I didnt write anything concerning contemporary Chinese politics, I just wrote that Ano4 presented a simplistic view of history regarding Chinas relationship with the Muslims, and then explained why and how it was simplistic. You are refuting imaginary arguments.

  133. Ano4 says:

    I don’t see an image of me eating the barbecued oxen steak with some sriracha and french fries…

    😁

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  134. @AltanBakshi

    Early agriculture much less g loaded than modern industrial civilization. 🙂 Even the New Guineans managed it.

    OTOH, even comparing like to like (pre-agricultural societies), I do not think there was anything remotely as impressive as the Shigir Idol produced by “southerners”:

    ***

    Anyhow, you can read my detailed views on these matters here: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/intro-apollos-ascent/

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  135. @128

    South Africa has an IQ of 70, most of its roads seem to be in still good shape, and it has good bus services, although its rail and airline service is slowing falling apart, as is its power grid.

    From what I have seen……your statement is 100% correct, though it should be said that the number of whites in South Africa has ( incredibly) remained similar to those there at the end of apartheid, which is probably why the roads are still quite good. I don’t know what was or wasn’t nationalised since black rule.

    They also have a large Indian and mixed race population ( mixed race there had different social status and lived in different areas to Africans and appear to be much more sophisticated and intelligent).

    So despite mass emigration of people leaving the crime and general decay of the state…you still have white population keeping constant and plenty of Asians and mixed race with same intellectual capacity of whites over there – to explain for the still relatively good state of roads .

    Although what complicates the issue is that you would have to assume there has been an eruption in car use as alot more Africans are able to buy and use them now , which of course makes maintenance a more regular and necessary requirement than before 1990’s – so maybe the Africans do deserve credit

  136. If a white man walked up to blacks and called them “niggers”, he would likely get severely beaten if not killed, and most people would have little sympathy for him. They would see it as self-inflicted and deserved.

    Yet at the same time most people seem to believe that the Charlie Hebdo anti-Muslim cartoons are acceptable and should be tolerated under “free speech”. Yet most people agree that it’s unacceptable for a white to call a black a “nigger” and that shouldn’t be covered by “free speech”.

    There seems to be a big double standard going on there.

    • Agree: Ano4, Showmethereal
  137. @Europe Europa

    In regards to the White man calling a black man racial slurs, the types of people who support the blacks retaliating with disproportionate force (they are a dime a dozen on Twitter, where these videos always surface) are also likely supporting the Muslims in this case.

  138. @AltanBakshi

    For someone who seems very into Buddhism you are very easy to trigger into anger an insults. I guess the teachings dont work. In any event – culture is an abstract judgement. Buddhist dogma is esoteric. Economics and civilization are more tangible and measurable. Arguing with someone about who is more cultural and which culture is better is silly. One man’s culture is another man’s trash. I see nothing more rich about Tibetans than Mongols. The fact that it makes you angry maybe you should try another religion.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  139. @AltanBakshi

    The Mongols and Jurchen Manchu of the Yuan and Qing dynasties specifically made themselves Chinese dynasties and took the concept of the mandate of heaven as a conti uation of rule. You confuse Han and Chinese.

  140. @Showmethereal

    For someone who seems very into Buddhism you are very easy to trigger into anger an insults.

    Hmm are you hurt? If you are hurt by some random commenter from the internet, who doesnt even know you face or personality, then its time to grow up! There will be always problems in life, actual problems and sources of anger and ressentiment etc, if one gets truly and personally agitated from internet comments, then the real problems of real life will be unsurmountable.

    Arguing with someone about who is more cultural and which culture is better is silly. One man’s culture is another man’s trash. I see nothing more rich about Tibetans than Mongols. The fact that it makes you angry maybe you should try another religion.

    But I wasnt arguing which culture is better, so yes you are right, someone who argues about that is very silly. I wrote that Tibetans have achieved per capita more than the Mongols have historically achieved, which is very different point than some kind of cultural superiority.

    “But yep Tibetans are per capita bigger achievers than Mongols”

    Couple points: Tibetan culture has hugely affected Mongolian culture, majority of Mongolian names are of Tibetan origin, majority of Mongols follow Gelug School of Tibetan Buddhism. Even Shamanistic traditions which has not been affected by Tibetan religious traditions, are very rare nowadays in areas inhabited by the Mongolic peoples, mostly surviving in the remotes regions of Buryatia and Northwestern Mongolia. Traditional relationship between Tibetans and Mongols has been the relationship of the Patron and Priest, Teacher and Warrior, so it has been from the times of Khubilai Khan over 700 years already. Clearly Mongols themselves think that Tibetans are more knowledgeable than the Mongols. Historically smartest Mongols studied in Tibetan Monastic universities, even now this tradition continues, situation is quite similar as was the Russians and Greeks relationship one thousand years ago, and yes I would claim that Greeks at least were greater per capita achievers than the East Slavs.

    How you know that I really was angry, all people are not as timid as some people and there are many degrees of anger, as there are many degrees of love, better to quickly lash ones anger, especially when regarding such non issues as our conversation than to have long simmering hatred in ones mind. Or to be passive-aggressive, which sadly seems to be a common problem among East Asians nowadays. Yes I was literally angry for 10-15 seconds but not for so stupid point as a cultural superiority of Tibetan culture or something as silly. Why would I? Doesnt make sense! It just seems to me that you dont know anything about Mongolian and Tibetan culture and still you want to argue about things that you dont know anything about. “Tribal dances.”” One who gets angry shouldnt be a Buddhist,” ha ha ha. Buddhas shouldnt be Buddhist, thats true, but the rest of us who have faults, for us religion is beneficial. I dont make rules of admission to groups which I dont belong, nor I claim any such authority.

    The Mongols and Jurchen Manchu of the Yuan and Qing dynasties specifically made themselves Chinese dynasties and took the concept of the mandate of heaven as a conti uation of rule. You confuse Han and Chinese.

    Someone has been fed by some propaganda, both dynasties didnt see themselves as Chinese, they ruled Chinese regions by the mandate of Heaven, but werent acting as Huang Di when interacting with the Tibetans or with the people of steppes. Do you mean by Chinese something like Zhongguoren? There was no such concept in the dynastic times. Dont be so anachronistic.

    I am very Sinophilic, but I get irritated when I need to deal with people who take politically useful propaganda literally and because of that cant genuinely understand history.

    Oh I have couple minutes left to edit this text. It seems that I offended you, I am truly sorry, my problem is that I dont take so personally these debates. I really really like debating, but much more in real life, so some arrogant or insulting comments are just my way to spice dry internet talk. But I am humbly sorry and try once again better my ways. One day I will succeed!!!

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  141. @Anatoly Karlin

    Early agriculture much less g loaded than modern industrial civilization. 🙂 Even the New Guineans managed it.

    Early agriculture in Hellenic Syria?

  142. @Ano4

    I like to believe that Im on the picture 2, that Im finally starting to understand where my afflictions arise.

    But hey Ano4 all Chan masters have been vegetarian! So no ox BBQ for you! Here is more suitable option https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha%27s_delight

    • Agree: Ano4
  143. Ano4 says:

    That’s a very complex list of ingredient. But it looks yummy. I like vegetarian food, it’s just that my family are quite carnivore.

    I think that I am also around the 2nd picture…

  144. @AltanBakshi

    No I’m not hurt at all… I actually feel pity because you would feel the need to try to insult another “random commenter from the internet”.

    “I wrote that Tibetans have achieved per capita more than the Mongols have historically achieved, which is very different point than some kind of cultural superiority.”

    I’m sorry but in my book “have achieved per capita more than” specifically denotes “superiority”. When you measure something (per capita) you specifically do so for performance.

    No need to feel sorry… I’m quite fine. Feel sorry for yourself and your blood pressure. You should know that releases hormones into your system that when they build up too much over time – they have adverse affects on the body.

    In any event – this forum is far too short to debate the influences Tibetans and Mongols had on each other.

    The Qing literally saw themselves as successors to the Ming and governed by the same practice – and appointed advisors to do such… But ok – they weren’t a “Chinese dynasty”…. If you say so no sense in debating.

    But one thing I can’t leave off is the fake notion that Tibetans were all flower pickers when you claim for the last 1000 years TIbetans were more peaceful than Mongols. I could list many many many fights Tibetans have had… But I will just touch on one subject. Explain why the enlightened Tibetans attacked and murdered so many Christian missionaries from just the 1600’s up into the 1900’s. I won’t even touch on the fact Tibetans were attacking and fighting all the neighboring ethnic groups in the 1800’s up into the 1900’s as well. But yeah – your claim is they are more peaceful than Mongols. My contention is no – the Mongols just had a bigger dynasty. Claiming Mongols get drunk and fight – but yet leave out there were Tibetan riots in 2008… What were those guys drunk on? Mongols being better fighters doesn’t mean Tibetans are more peaceful.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  145. @128

    The majority of the increase in debt in China since 2008 was in corporate debt. A lot of it was to build infrastructure. The reason China did this was to help stabilize the global economy during the financial collapse (aside from buying mountain loads of US treasuries). The stock market in China is small in comparison to the economy. Companies sell bonds rather than issue equity – though that is changing.

    As to overstated GDP… Well the countries that import/export from/to China can verify the numbers to say if they are false or not. Not have said so. The foreign companies who sell in China can verify their numbers. Go ask Mercedes and Porsche if they think China is inflating it’s numbers and they will laugh all the way to the proverbial bank as they rack up record sales after record sales (and much less leasing than takes place in the North American market). Ask robot makers from Germany and Japan. This is 2020 – it’s not easy to fake numbers. In fact – when numbers have been proven fake in China – it was exposed by the Chinese central government punishing certain provinces for lying.

    In any event – as to building empty apartment dwellings. Is that over stated GDP??? Well China still has hundreds of millions more people who will be urbanizing in the next 30 years. If they waited – then that construction would cost more later…

  146. @showmethereal

    Actually I have a low blood pressure. I dont claim that Tibetans were a peaceful nation of hippies, but after the collapse of the Tibetan empire and after the era of fragmentation that lasted till 11th century, they have warred less than the Mongols. Actually for last 800 years most soldiers in Tibet have been Mongols, all the way down to the end of the Qing. I dont understand how you bring up such minor matters as killing of couple dozen or few hundred Christian missionaries in the time period of the 1600s to 1900s. In my knowledge there was only one major case of that in the early 1900s, when Khampa tribesmen and Lamas killed a dozen French Catholic missionaries, that they rioterd in 2008 is again a quite minuscule happening. Europeans have been much much more violent in such matters, like killing people who do not share their faith. So strange to bring up so minor matters, or not so strange, it just means that Tibetans have been so comparatively peaceful that its hard to find any major acts of violence, except when they had a civil war in the end of the 16th century, I really cant understand how you think that those things compare with the violence of the Mongols? In the history of Mongolians there has been practically a constants state of warfare all the way to end of the 18th Century. When Qing Manchus and Khalkha Mongols exterminated the Dzungar Khanate.

    The Qing did not just saw themselves as the successors of the Ming, but they had a more complex view of the past, as you probably know their original dynastic name of the Later Jin and they claimed continuation with the Jurchen Jin dynasty, and thats not all, Daicing Gurun, which was their name in Manchu and Mongolian, actually means a Warrior state in Manchu and Mongolian. The Qing were many different things for their many different subject nations, they didnt see themselves as Chinese, not Zhongguoren or Hanren, and they felt superior towards all people of China proper. The Han Bannermen had the lowest position among all bannermen and were not accepted in the imperial bodyguard unlike the Mongols and had less privileges than Manchus and Mongols. By the way over 20% of Bannermen were Mongol, but there were no Tibetan bannermen, practically almost all the military in the Tibet during the Qing was non-Tibetan, unlike in Mongolia were majority of bannermen were Mongols, with a Manchu minority, strange that the case was so, if the Tibetan were so martial as you claim. There was a time when Tibetans were fearsome and bloody barbarians, but it was long time ago during the Tibetan empire, as long ago as the Tang dynasty, so time to update your views.

    Although the languages of China and Korea are different, because their
    coiffures and style of dress [etukui ulhi, lit., “garment sleeves”] are
    identical, those two countries are as one. Our two nations, Mongol [and
    Jurchen], though originally [speaking] different languages, are as one in
    the clothing we wear and in all our various modes of living

    -Emperor Nurhaci

    There are about five million Tibetans and about ten million Mongols or all Mongolic people put together. I know that for you Tibetans are just a some tribal curiosity or something like that, but their achievements in Philosophy are quite vast and their literary tradition is very old, just like in medicine and architecture. These things are subjective matters, but I am deeply familiar with both peoples and have Mongol blood, so I think I have some knowledge about the matter. When you travel in the lands of Buryatia, Mongolia or Inner Mongolia all actual ancient buildings are build on the Tibetan or Chinese style, or are mix of the two styles, outside of Ger, yurt, there is no actual tradition of specifically Mongolian architecture. Also it can be claimed that traditionally there has been a very rich tradition of handicrafts and metal working in Tibet, which did not exist in Mongolia before the coming of Tibetan Buddhism. The statues, artistic ornaments and so on in the Mongolian lands have their cultural sources in Tibet. Actually it can be said that the relationship between Tibetans and Mongols is same as between Chinese and Vietnamese, or between Chinese and Koreans. There is no much Korean or Vietnamese culture in China, right? But very much Chinese culture in both of those countries, right?

    You mustn’t go about equating a small rise in the price of grain with some
    kind of miniature disaster; this is like what those careless, insignificant
    Chinese do, getting their heads all in a bother over every little thing. All
    you officials must be more resolute and take minor things in stride. So
    don’t be frightened at one small matter and let yourself be deceived by the
    talk of people who know nothing.

    -Emperor Qianlong (Gaozong shilu, 415: I3b-I 5a.)

    • Thanks: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  147. EldnahYm says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Most of the Middle East has changed substantially since Islam, meaning more southern Arabian ancestry and also more black ancestry from the slave trade. Non-Islamic minorities tend to have more pre-Islamic DNA.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  148. @EldnahYm

    That is quite probable, but outside of coastal Iran, Iraq and Syria the genetic flow from the Arabian peninsula must have have been miniscule. Ancient people of Eastern Anatolia and Kurdish lands were among the first farmers, they also domesticated many important animal species and were a long time culturally and civilizationally highly capable people, same with the Iranians, maybe religion explains partly something, I believe that there are multiple reasons and causes for the recent day conditions and phenomena, but then I need to study more this topic, how generationally fixed is the IQ, how much does culture affect, maybe not at all if Armenians Azeris have almost same IQ as some here claim. Still its odd that ancient Chinese travellers never wrote anything about the barbarianness or backwardness of Indians and Iranians, when travelling in those lands, with ancient Turks, Mongols and Tibetans the situation was totally different, even with the Japanese.

  149. SZ says:
    @AltanBakshi

    All those mentioned nations practice endogamy (cousin marriage) to a large degree, hence, keep their women within a certain familial environment. That family model results in a society with limited educational and organisational potential as correctly observed by French demographer Emmanuel Todd in his book ‘The Causes of Progress: Culture, Authority, and Change’

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  150. @128

    It must have been easy for the Jin to deal with the “Xiongnu” by then, given that they hadn’t existed for almost a thousand years by then.

    Another genius post.

  151. @AltanBakshi

    You keep pretending Tibetans have been peaceful for centuries but it is plain false. Part of why the Qing were required to pay the British after the skirmishes in Tibet was because the British were surprised at their ferocity. They fought other neighboring ethnic groups all along even during the Qing days. They never stopped being violent – which is why the CIA armed and trained them in the 1950’s. They knew the potential was there because there was always violence among Tibetans. India knows that too and has had a special unit of just Tibetans who are known to be quite fierce.

    I said I wasn’t going to debate more on who had more cultural influence – so I will let Columbia do it. I don’t know what it is you have against Mongols in relation to Tibetans – but you focus a lot on Tibetan schools of Buddhism. Fact is Zen is vastly more practiced. And your claim that the Mongols per capita had less an influence doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny – unless you are only talking about religion

    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/history/history_a.htm

  152. Levtraro says:
    @Yevardian

    Thank you. I know both types of muslims in their natural habitat and yes, I got the impression Shias are just a little bit less retrograde than sunnies. Iranian shias though tried to become more retrograde than sunnies when winning their revolution but then sunnies replied by becoming even more retrograde than retrograde Iranian shias (and now MBS is trying to revert some of that retrogradeness).

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