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The YouGov poll on which animal Americans could take in a fight (covered by Sailer) was complemented by another poll asking Brits those same questions.

American women sure are confident. The Brits are… realistic? (On the large animals, at any rate).

Anyhow, for what little opinion (never having fought any of these animals) is worth:

  • I would guess a majority of healthy young men should be able to beat wolves and big dogs (~50 kg). I’m not sure that the idea that wolves are necessarily more dangerous than big dogs is accurate. Weight classes are similar, and some dogs were even specifically bred to kill wolves.
  • The fitter half or certainly quartile of male humans should be able to beat a chimp, they weigh 50% less (size matters a lot) and their strength advantage is overstated (claims of 10x are wrong, it’s actually more like 1.5-2x). As Triteleia Laxa pointed out in Sailer’s thread, in Africa, they occasionally prey on small children, but run from adults.
  • Really, chimps (presumably male), large dogs, wolves should all be around the 50%+ mark for fit young men, probably something like 10-15% for fit young women.
  • Any adult should be able to take an eagle. In fact, it’s a bit weird how the eagle is so feared (weight: 7kg is a big one).
  • Chances of victory for any human against the 5 animals at the bottom is as near to 0% as makes no difference. (I idly wonder if there has ever been a single case of an unarmed human vs. adult big cat victory or brown bear – heck, even black bear – victory in the past 100,000 years).

Here’s how Americans think various animals will do against each other in a cage match:

This actually seems… rather accurate, by and large.

Well, grizzly bears and polar bears should be essentially similar, and both would cardinally outclass any of the big cats. Quite a number of animals are overestimated, especially the medium cats, there are records of humans including women who killed leopards unarmed. Boars should be way higher than wolves, a man can kill a wolf unarmed but he won’t be killing a boar. LOL at 2 ton walruses lower than 7kg eagles (even polar bears rarely bother with them). Humans should unironically be considerably higher. Plenty of records of men and some women killing wolves and leopards. My guess is that boar and jaguars are the point at which our success rate would dwindle to near zero or zero.

One interesting contest that’s unsurprisingly close is lions vs. tigers. While they would seem evenly matched, I recall reading somewhere that Roman amphitheater records of contests between the two had tigers coming out on top almost all of the time. Since those would have been Bengal tigers, a lion should stand basically zero chance against a Siberian tiger.

Unsurprisingly, bears beat bulls.

 
• Tags: Animals 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. I believe that pigs have an IQ advantage over bears but they have not yet been able to intellectualize this into martial advantage.

  3. So, bullish on bears.

    What about Bears vs. Giants?

  4. utu says:

    That’s boring. Better tell us which animal would you like to fuck.

    • LOL: Svevlad
  5. USA! USA! USA!

    • Replies: @g2k
  6. Invisable Hand vs Living Document?

  7. I wouldn’t be so rosy about King Cobra. Their venom is incredibly toxic and they can lunge at you from a distance at incredible speed. Not to mention they could wrap around your arms break it.

    Snakes are fast and if they’re attacking you it would be difficult to grab hold of them at all, forget grabbing them by the neck.

    As far as the others, a more interesting question is how would animals tally up against other animals?

    Lions >>> all other big cats and dog variants barring the Tiger. Lions have a significant weight advantage over leopards, Jaguars and Wolves that easily overturn whatever edge they have in agility.

    Lion vs Tiger:

    The Romans matched them many times in the colossium and it almost always ended in a tiger victory. Lions weigh less than tiger and are bogged down by their useless mane. Plus lions hunt in packs, Tigers hunt alone.

    Lions are alpha males leading a harem, tigers are sigma males going it out alone. The ultimate chad animal.

    Polar bear vs Tiger:

    This one’s a toss really. The Polar bear has some significant physicla advantages. It weighs twice as much as an adult tiger and can stand upright. Standing upright gives it an elevation advantage and they can stand as high as 6’2”.

    That being said, the Tiger is significantly more agile and has more fighting skill I guess. The tiger is a carnivore and hunter while a bear is an omnivore and scavenger. The bear in contrast is somewhat lazy. Near Russo-Chinese border, I believe they once found the carcass of a bear who had slain by a siberian tiger.

    It would be a close match but if I had to put money, I’d put it on the bear. The bear is simply much larger and can stand tall. Considering that the average polar bear is as strong as 10-15 adult human males, swipes by its 6 inch claws could easily prove fatal for the tiger.

    The tiger’s own claws are impressive but I doubt they can inflict fatal damage on the bear’s thick skin.

    Bulls >>>>all others mentioned so far.

    Ironically, the strongest fighter in the wild is a hervibore. An adult bull can weigh as much as 2000 kg and easily pull 2 tons of weight.

    The Romans in fact pitted the legendary Spanish bull against the other contestants. In a match, the bull defeated a lion and tiger duo at the same time. And just a few minutes later defeated a racing horse.

    While these are the common contestants on any strong animal list, there remains one dark horse: the silverback gorilla.

    The silverback can lift 1.8 tons in bench press and can throw one ton objects with their hands. Plus they have an intelligence adantage over other contestants here. Plus they can punch. They don’t have claws and fags however and neither scavenge nor hunt.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Trinity
  8. It looks like people thought a honey badger should win against a walrus. At an average of 10kgs, I have no idea what a badger is supposed to do against a 1000kg walrus. It is like a baby fighting a sumo wrestler.

    I also don’t get which adults think they would lose to a rat or a house cat. I guess it must be that they, themselves, would refuse to fight or flee.

    Many of us think of our species as physically weak, but we hunted wooly mammoths, which were 6000kgs, with big sticks.

  9. Bill P says:

    The unarmed fight is pretty rare because people almost always use a weapon when they can. In Washington state there are frequent fights between humans and animals, and the humans surprisingly win a lot of the time. What typically happens is an encounter in which the animal menaces the human, upon which the human picks up an impromptu weapon of some sort. Typically the weapon is some kind of club or shield. One guy used his bicycle to fend off a cougar, another beat a black bear to death with a tree branch, and an older woman chased off a cougar by repeatedly whacking it on the head with a walking stick.

    When the animal wins it is usually in a place where it has an environmental advantage. A couple examples include a man who was attacked and killed by a mountain goat while hiking on a steep slope in the Olympics, and a woman who was killed by river otters while swimming in a river.

    With larger animals the physics are obviously very hard to overcome. Anyone who’s been in a car crash knows you’re absolutely at the mercy of the forces that come into play, and a charging grizzly hits with that kind of force. Your only hope is to inflict severe penetrating wounds on the beast before it can kill you.

    The invention of reliable penetrating weapons, e.g. flint spearheads, must have been a very important inflection point in human evolution.

  10. Any adult should be able to take an eagle. In fact, it’s a bit weird how the eagle is so feared (weight: 7kg is a big one).

    Take on an eagle sure. But how do you beat it? Assuming we are outdoors.

  11. mal says:
    @michael droy

    First, you fight a rat. Then you use subdued rat as bait to lure the eagle indoors.

  12. UNIT472 says:

    I recall a, perhaps, apocryphal story of a Grizzly versus Bull fight during the California gold rush days An arena was made for the animals to battle in ( just how you induce the animals to fight is not clear in these match ups) but in this case the animals won because they soon escaped the confines of their arena and some of the human spectators were the only casualties.

    I think Anatoly underestimates adult male chimps. They can be ferocious and have bitten off peoples fingers, faces and genitalia ( yeah they know the vulnerable spots on our anatomy). Unless you could knock it out with a initial blow before the chimp could start biting I wouldn’t expect a man to win.

    • Agree: Some Guy
  13. @Triteleia Laxa

    One gets the odd Wolverine attack, where they leap from trees onto nice, supple bear spines to burrow into, but I think the fact remains outside a carefully placed and brutally carried out sneak attack, a wolverine (which to me is a more brutal honey badger) would generally lose to a bear in a head-on fight, and any larger animal.

  14. @michael droy

    Conan-style: bite out its throat, spit the feathers in the face of its friends.

    • LOL: Right_On
  15. mal says:

    Ну вот.

    НАТО не показывайте pic.twitter.com/fVmgG37oM0— SALOBOY (@salovnarezku) May 31, 2021

  16. songbird says:

    I was bitten by a large dog once – likely accidentally. The dog in question didn’t have the best coordination, and I made a foolish mistake – you never want to get between two dogs that are having it out. Wasn’t hurt bad – it was more like a strong snap than a rending bite, and I was wearing thick clothing.

    But to get to my point: there was a lot of power behind the bite. It came down on my arm, and even though I wasn’t hurt, I could get a sense of the jaw strength, and it awed me. (Obviously much stronger than a human bite) If it hadn’t been a dominance contest between two males – if it had been some sort of battle to the death – I doubt that I would have stood much of a chance, if unarmed.

    BTW, I once accidentally clobbered the the same dog with a heavy stick – I was throwing it, and I didn’t realize he was close by my side. Gave him a pretty good whack, and it didn’t seem to phase him in the slightest. It was almost like he didn’t even notice, except for a quick glance, to read my face, and make sure I wasn’t angry at him.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
  17. Ted Hughes wrote an amusing story about a man with no arms who earned his living as an entertainer by catching rats in pubs. When Sailer covered this topic recently there was a poster who challenged me on the topic of the fighting prowess of geese.

    This has got to be CGI:

  18. Some Guy says:
    @songbird

    Yes, how would an unarmed human seriously wound a big dog or wolf? I doubt the average person would succeed in getting a good choke-hold, if that would even work. Break the limbs perhaps?

  19. songbird says:

    Any adult should be able to take an eagle. In fact, it’s a bit weird how the eagle is so feared (weight: 7kg is a big one).

    If it is a kamikaze eagle, it might just speed dive (bald eagles 100 mph; golden eagles 150 mph) and put its claws into your brain. Still a victory – if you take out a greater foe.

    Birds are also very flexible. If you are holding one, and it wants to pull out your eyeball, it probably can.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  20. songbird says:
    @Some Guy

    I wonder if there are any victim stats for the Beast of Gévaudan. From what I can tell it killed a few men. Many of its targets seem to have been shepherds, so maybe armed with sticks. Some were injured without being killed, and it may have been big.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_G%C3%A9vaudan#Beginnings

  21. @Some Guy

    gouge out its eyes, bite off its nose etc
    if you get behind it you could grapevine its limbs, twist them at unnatural angles (they’re quite weak in some directions), choke it (someone linked to a story about a 60 yr old (? I think it was) man choking a pitbull to death) and so on. If you have shoes on kicking the fuck out of its ribs (while pulling its ears) is usually a recommended option (if not, knees and elbows may do just as well).

    if it’s got a hold of one of your limbs that’s bad for the limb, but the dog also can’t attack anything else while its mouth is full and you can effectively ‘jam’ it there (so it’s said) while you go to down on the dog and worry about your own injuries later…

  22. Malenfant says:

    I’ve spent some time in Thailand and, while there, spent a lot of time with Asian elephants in the jungle. These were mostly female elephants, and they were agricultural animals. Their job was to clear brush for new farmland.

    I can hardly express how strong and tough these elephants were. Pulling insanely heavy loads with just their trunks — and then throwing those loads in the air. From time to time, they’d be given barrels of food or water, which sometimes weighed well over 100kg. They’d often throw these, too, in the air, for “fun” — and then the heavy barrels would sometimes land on their own backs or shoulders, which the elephants never even seemed to notice.

    There’s literally no way to beat a female Asian elephant in a fight, unarmed. You can forget about even hurting them. And the males are stronger and more aggressive. (Thus less suited for agricultural work.)

    …Male African elephants are the alpha animal — your odds are a flat 0%, and you’d be better off fighting any other sort of animal.

    Not for the squeamish, but here’s what can happen when an Asian elephant decides it doesn’t like you, and that you’ve crossed its annoyance threshold:
    https://leakreality.com/video/11466/elephant-pops-a-man-s-chest-like-a-balloon
    The poor guy never had a chance. And still less of a chance to fight that animal unarmed, and win.

  23. Pericles says:
    @songbird

    The eagle could take off with a turtle in its claws and drop it on your head from a safe distance above, thus at the same time also providing a nice refreshing light meal afterwards. The great playwright Aeschylus was killed in this way.

    • Agree: songbird
  24. All depends on the dog. Wouldn’t fancy fighting a pitbull, or Rhodesian Ridgeback. Very powerful jaws.

    Off topic, long been interested in alternative nuclear technologies like molten salt reactors. If this is right, Bill Gates is going to build one.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/03/bill-gates-warren-buffett-new-nuclear-reactor-wyoming-natrium

    https://www.terrapower.com/our-work/natriumpower/

    In the days when the UK was a serious nation, they had an experimental MS reactor in Dorset.

    http://www.egeneration.org/wp-content/Repository/Chloride_Salt_Fast_Reactor/AEEW-R956.pdf

  25. Pericles says:

    One must not forget that it’s also an issue of willingness to fight. For example, a cat can tree a bear.

  26. Max Payne says:

    A silverback gorilla…. might be a challenge with its limbs. Feels like a small Japanese SUV charging at you.

    Tiger is a an assassin, a lion is a fighter. Tigers rely on ambushing their prey with a killing wound from a tree like a good branch manager. Lions are assholes that maul for lolz. They seem to have a greater stamina recovery rate.

    But man…. MAN (that forged HIS-STORY) can take on all with his bare hands.

    Here is a nice gentleman teaching nature to stop being gay:

    This young child (Khabib) head locks a bear to remind nature to eat dicks:

    there are records of humans including women who killed leopards unarmed.

    Pussy cats, oversized pussy cats:

    American women are sheltered by Western civilization, disconnected from reality more than teenage male gamers.

    • Replies: @UNIT472
    , @BlackFlag
    , @melanf
  27. songbird says:

    Unsurprisingly, bears beat bulls.

    Bring back the aurochs – it is doable.

  28. @michael droy

    Take on an eagle sure. But how do you beat it?

    A baseball bat or a big stick come to mind.

  29. It depends on circumstances. Anyway, I’d always avoid reptiles and various unpleasant monsters from the deep.

    Be as it may, excerpt the whale, all our contemporaries are smaller than their predecessors. Megatherium, for instance:

    Cro-Magnons were, males, 189- 189 cm. So we, whites-Europeans, their descendants, are statistically- dwarfs.

  30. This is a bit stupid debate and quite absurd. Of course Roman Circus was real, but it’s entirely artificial. Worse, it’s an ill culture subproduct. We, humans, are by far the most dangerous animal and there isn’t any species all over the Earth capable to defeat us: we expanded covering the whole planet before any civilization created by us appeared, and with a very low technology (not very far from sticks and stones as other primates use them). But for sure we have such powers when we acted together, in group, that’s the way Evolution made us. As single individuals, we are extremely vulnerable, even weak. Evolution made a good job with us, very defective individuals can make the most powerful species when in group. More, as far as we know, Neandertals were as smart as we are, but far stronger (and resistent, of course, they must eat proportionally more), but our weakness works as an adaptative avantage, the weaker we are, the stronger the ties amongst us: we know we cannot survive as individuals, but as a group. When in danger, there is no enemies.

    These are the same reasons because rats are far worse enemies to us than tigers, in fact, we have almost extingued them, while rats thrive under our societies -and how. And all of this means not it is better or worse: we are this way like we could be the other, but that’s the way we are.

    People we call “primitive” are not a danger, either against the planet or themselves -nor they are in risk of extinction. We are. I am afraid “civilization” is the problem we have. This kind of absurd debates reminds me so.

  31. tyrone says:

    The “fitter” half couldn’t beat an adult male chimp ….. such a chimp would leave ANY human disfigured and disabled or dead. Wild chimpanzees fear humans because of weapons.

  32. UNIT472 says:

    Most important is the level of aggression at the outset of hand to hand or hand to mouth combat. Humans don’t tend to pick fights with an animal because it has claws, teeth and a more innate aggressive tendency ( negroes maybe excluded here). Yes, you can kick a dog or cat and it will flee, but if the animal makes the first move it is the human who is terrified and is unlikely to mount an counter attack.

    Growing up I had two incidents with dogs. In one I was raising my arms and thrusted them down. An invitation to play I later learned. My BFF’s dog, maybe two thirds my 8 or 9 year old weight leaped at me and his snout knocked my two front teeth out with his snout. He apologized as best a dog could do when he saw he drew blood but they were baby teeth and it was no big deal.

    Years later when I was 13 or 14 I had been hiking in the woods all day around a lake. It was hot and I was thirsty when I made my way back home. I remembered there was a business located along the railroad tracks that had a Coca Cola vending machine outside just over a chain link fence. It was closed for the weekend but I had some coins so I decided to climb over the chain link fence and get a soda. What I didn’t know was they had a guard dog. A doberman as I recall. It charged at me and I instinctively thrust an arm out to block it as it leaped towards me. To both the dogs and my own surprise my arm went into the animals mouth and into his throat. I got some lacerations on my arm from his teeth but the dog fled choking from having a human fist go down his throat. I never got the soda as I decided not to press my luck.

    • LOL: Boomthorkell
  33. UNIT472 says:
    @Max Payne

    Did you know that cheetahs purr like house cats, sleep most of the time and don’t have sharp claws. Make a better house pet than a dog. The problem is they can’t be housebroken. They pee and shit whenever, wherever the urge occurs.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  34. Not Raul says:

    Over-civilized normies don’t think a lot about them, because they’re so small, I suppose; but mosquitoes, snails, and tsetse flies kill a lot of people.

  35. Vendetta says:

    I wouldn’t take too much out of 2,000 year old shit talk on the subject of lions vs tigers. They’re physically similar enough to breed with each other. A fight could go either way.

    Eagles are frightening because nobody likes the idea of having their eyes clawed out.

    Leopards prey on warthogs and zebras, among other things. I would not place my bets on the human in that matchup.

    The gorilla is slightly overrated in the poll, the moose is slightly underrated.

  36. Perhaps American women are presuming they will have a gun.

    Access to firearms also explains why the male:female homicide perp ratio in the US is only 8:1, whilst in England it is 15:1.

  37. BlackFlag says:
    @Max Payne

    To be fair, American women have 50kg on British men.

  38. That irreducible 10% or so of Americans who think they can beat any animal are black.

  39. AKAHorace says:
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Remember this is unarmed, which I take to mean with your bare hands alone. With even a walking stick humans become much more dangerous.

  40. songbird says:

    Ligers are bigger than lions and tigers. I wonder whether they would be more or less formidable. Could we make a Siberian liger? And if it were female, could it be used to create a new species of Northern big cats that hunt in packs?

    Would a humanzee (if such a creature existed) be more or less formidable than a chimp?

  41. AP says:

    Really, chimps (presumably male), large dogs, wolves should all be around the 50%+ mark for fit young men, probably something like 10-15% for fit young women.

    Here’s a hairless chimp:

    Even though a male weights only about 120 lbs., given that it has the instincts to fight very fast and dirty (going right for the eyes, genitals, etc.) I’d guess 95% of male humans wouldn’t stand a chance against one.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Chrisnonymous
  42. Right_On says:
    @Some Guy

    I read in a pseudo-judo book one time, that if your forearm is in a dog’s grip, you should push your arm hard to the rear of the jaw (are there fewer teeth there?), place your free hand on the back of its head, and then break the beast’s neck. If you’ve been thrown to the ground, wrap your legs around its loins and squeeze hard. Killer move, apparently.

    NOTE: this poster accepts no liability under state or federal law for any injuries or fatalities arising as a result of following this advice.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  43. AP says:
    @Caspar von Everec

    Lion vs Tiger:

    The Romans matched them many times in the colossium and it almost always ended in a tiger victory. Lions weigh less than tiger and are bogged down by their useless mane. Plus lions hunt in packs, Tigers hunt alone.

    In a one on one match the tiger wins. I once read somewhere however, that when a group of lions was caged with a group of tigers, the lions would band together and kill the tigers one at a time until they were all dead. The tigers wouldn’t help each other out.

    • Replies: @gT
  44. songbird says:
    @AP

    People suffer from deliberation. It can be a good thing if you are attacking in a group with weapons. One on one without them, it is probably a detriment. Animal actions are often lightning fast.

    That said, it would be interesting to see a kickboxer fight a chimp.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Maxyboy2000
  45. AP says:
    @songbird

    I think a strong, experienced fighter would be in the 5% of male humans who could beat a chimp.

    About bears vs. tigers:

    Black bears are a regular prey item for Siberian tigers (they are something like 30% of a tiger’s diet). But occasionally Siberian tigers will also go after brown bears (grizzlies):

    https://carnivora.net/siberian-tiger-interactions-with-brown-bears-asiat-t101.html

    • Replies: @songbird
  46. I was going to comment, but I don’t want the particular community (associated with what I want to say) to be harassed by any of you here for extraneous political viewpoints you and them hold.

    (It isn’t going to be OOT)

  47. @UNIT472

    Honestly, what monster would keep a Cheetah in the house when they are much better off patrolling your vast plantation/palatial estate anyway?

    Like a good farm cat, but more lethal.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  48. @Pericles

    The cat was good, but only thought was of how fast that damn bear was, even while climbing a tree. Goes to show I probably won’t be outclimbing one if push comes to shove.

  49. melanf says:

    there are records of humans including women who killed leopards unarmed

    Funny joke

    An approximate analogue – the combat power of the machine gun is greatly overestimated, there are many cases when unarmed men and even women won a battle with a machine gunner.

  50. melanf says:
    @Max Payne

    Pussy cats, oversized pussy cats:

    Heavily underestimated pussy cat (the only surviving saber-toothed cat)

  51. melanf says:

    Well, grizzly bears and polar bears should be essentially similar, and both would cardinally outclass any of the big cats.

    In the Far East of Russia, there are cases when tigers hunted grizzlies. There are also known cases when tigers in India successfully hunted elephants. In Africa, in some places there are lion prides specializing in killing elephants.

  52. g2k says:
    @Joe Stalin

    Aren’t the “brown” bears in California actually black bears but with brown coloured fur, they’re smaller and a lot less apt to become aggessive.

    The definition of “win” has a lot of room for interpretation, are we talking about a theoretical fight to the death or until one gives up and runs off? Big cats are more likely to do the latter if it’s prey aggression and they encounter resistance, brown bears and boars are especially dangerous because once they’ve decided to attack, they hardly ever back down.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  53. @songbird

    A kick boxer fight a chimp !!!!

    I like watching kick boxers fighting boxers, and getting knocked out 9 times out of ten.

    What makes you think that a kick boxer would have any chance at all against a chimp ? Why a kick boxer ?

    Chimps are evil little fuckers to tangle with. The sheer speed and aggression would overwhelm any human being.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Triteleia Laxa
  54. songbird says:
    @Maxyboy2000

    What makes you think that a kick boxer would have any chance at all against a chimp ? Why a kick boxer ?

    I probably should have said MMA fighter, but I meant to emphasize legs. Legs can be about 3x as powerful as arms. They have longer reach, and since chimps are only 1.5m tall, theoretically, it would be easy to kick a chimp in the head. For a human, a kick to the head can easily be a knockout blow. Though, to be fair, chimps do probably have thicker skulls, and they also have greater grip and bite strength, so maybe they would seize a leg and then bite it.

    I like watching kick boxers fighting boxers, and getting knocked out 9 times out of ten.

    never seen a boxer fight against an MMA fighter in a no-holds barred contest. I have seen MMA fighters lying on the ground (would seem to nullify punches) knock out other MMA fighters who were lunging at them with a well timed kick to the head.

  55. songbird says:
    @AP

    In my boyhood, another boy from the old Soviet sphere once asked me whether I thought three Irish wolfhounds could win against a Siberian tiger. I did not like to see my national animal loose against his, so I said, “Perhaps, if the wolfhounds were trained”, which he allowed because I think the human element appealed to him.

    Anyway, thinking back on it, I don’t believe the wolfhounds would have stood a chance, unless, like certain mythic tales I’ve heard, where Irish dogs fought monsters, they were armed with deadly poison and special steel claws, in order to deliver the poison.

    BTW, consequently, I have seen a picture where he was posing with a Siberian tiger that evidently had been knocked out.

    • Replies: @AP
  56. Dude, for the sake of humanity in the coming dystopian wasteland, there are so many things here that should be clarified –

    I would guess a majority of healthy young men should be able to beat wolves and big dogs (~50 kg).

    In a word – pig’s arse! Once he has his jaws around your neck, you’re gone. Even a Jack Russel or Fox Terrier can masticate your ankle severely or render you permanently sterile – if a dog is big enough to look you in the eye, run like shit! The only qualifier to this is that wolves are pack animals, and so a lone wolf would likely be at a psychological disadvantage in any solitary encounter.

    [MORE]

    The fitter half or certainly quartile of male humans should be able to beat a chimp, they weigh 50% less (size matters a lot) and their strength advantage is overstated (claims of 10x are wrong, it’s actually more like 1.5-2x).

    Pig’s arse! Chimpanzees are smart and strong and they fight dirty. Some readers might remember the true story some years back of a kid who got past the security barrier in a British zoo and got right up to just outside the chimps’ cage. A chimpanzee reached through the bars and ripped his arm clean off (and then they ate it). If he’s big enough to look you in the eye, run like shit!

    Any adult should be able to take an eagle. In fact, it’s a bit weird how the eagle is so feared (weight: 7kg is a big one).

    Pig’s arse! Maybe a good house-trained woman could get a big raptor in a strangle-hold and pluck it, but for any guy, once that raptor has its talons on your nuts, you’re gone. Most especially, if he’s big enough to look you in the eye, run like shit!

    Well, grizzly bears and polar bears should be essentially similar, and both would cardinally outclass any of the big cats.

    I seriously doubt any bear alive today being able to match, let alone outclass, a fully grown male Siberian tiger.

    One interesting contest that’s unsurprisingly close is lions vs. tigers. While they would seem evenly matched, I recall reading somewhere that Roman amphitheater records of contests between the two had tigers coming out on top almost all of the time.

    As is the case for wolves, lions are pack animals, whereas tigers are solitary animals. A tiger’s Kung Fu will kick the shit out of any individual lion’s street fighting cred every time.

    Plenty of records of men and some women killing wolves and leopards.

    Unsurprisingly, there are less records of wolves and leopards killing men and women, seeing as how the wolves and leopards generally don’t keep records.

    I’d wager that for each wolf or leopard killed by a bare-handed human, there’s 100 dens of very-well fed cubs feasting on bare-handed people-burgers.

    I note in the scored animal list that alligators and crocodiles are rated nearly equal. I dispute that assessment. Crocodiles – especially the big ones – are highly intelligent and pure evil, reptiles from Hell. If I were given a choice of wading through an alligator-infested swamp versus a crocodile-infested swap, I’d pick the alligators every time – even 0.00001% chance of surviving is better than 101% guaranteed instant death.

    Incidentally, FWIW, Peter Griffin has individually and bare-handedly taken on every one of the animals in that list, and lived to tell the tale. That might help to explain the American confidence in their animal-fighting prowess.

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  57. Rich says:

    Of course a Russian would think the average fit man could defeat a chimp or a wolf, every Russian I’ve ever worked with was strong as a bear. My fellow Americans, though, on average, are effeminate, spaghetti armed video game addicts who can barely lift their heads up from their iPhones. They can barely lift their girlfriends’ purses as they follow them around the mall. Of course, the US is a big enough country that the small minority that haven’t been gelded are still pretty tough.

    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
    • Replies: @songbird
  58. @g2k

    Aren’t the “brown” bears in California actually black bears but with brown coloured fur, they’re smaller and a lot less apt to become aggessive.

    A few years back we had a news report about a Japanese tourist in California who went up to a wild black bear to feed it – so it ate him.

    He should have read the signs – “Don’t feed the bears”.

  59. songbird says:
    @Rich

    Would have been interesting if they had asked the same question a hundred years ago, letting us compare.

    Or also asked what percentage of men in 2021 think that they could take the average man from 1921. Same question with women.

    • Replies: @AKAHorace
  60. @Right_On

    …you should push your arm hard to the rear of the jaw… place your free hand on the back of its head, and then break the beast’s neck.

    Good luck with that – fighting dogs’ necks are pure muscle, way stronger than human musculature and like solid steel. And the big dogs have necks thicker than a healthy human torso.

    Maybe you can just choke him by shoving your head down his throat?

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    , @Trinity
  61. AKAHorace says:
    @songbird

    Or also asked what percentage of men in 2021 think that they could take the average man from 1921. Same question with women.

    Not sure about the men, but I would definately bet on the 2021 woman vs the 1921 woman.

    • Replies: @Rich
  62. @Maxyboy2000

    I posted a video of a chimp attacking a scrawny biologist on the other thread. The scrawny biology was fine.

    • Replies: @Trinity
  63. @Ultrafart the Brave

    And the big dogs have necks thicker than a healthy human torso

    Care to show us a picture of this dog’s neck that is as big as a healthy human torso?

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  64. Trinity says:
    @Caspar von Everec

    Nothing personal but this shows exactly why people think they can beat animals in a fight. The AVERAGE POLAR BEARING STANDING ON IT’S HIND LEGS IS WELL OVER 8 FT TALL AND MANY HAVE REACHED OVER 10 FEET TALL. PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA HOW HUGE THESE ANIMALS AND THEIR COUSINS THE KODIAK BEAR REALLY ARE.

    Gorillas HAVE FANGS some growing up to 2 inches long. smdh and lol.

  65. mapman says:

    This actually seems… rather accurate, by and large.

    Not really. How do you fight a determined golden eagle to win 61% of fights? Absolutely no way. They kill wolves and deers.

    Not to mention the absolutely ridiculous winning 83% of fights against unarmed humans. Statistically that’s just stupid beyond any belief.

  66. Trinity says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    Seriously I can close a Captains Of Crush #2 gripper which is about 195lbs of pressure to close. The average man or sedentary man will not be able to come close to closing this gripper, I guarantee it. I have relatively large hands and do all sorts of exercises for grip strength and there is no way in hell I can choke out an enraged American bulldog ( I own a Scott-Johnson hybrid) or say a 110-120lb rottie or even the much smaller pit bull even if that thing had its teeth removed. A American bulldog alone, has nails that can scratch the hell out of you and their strength is more than a match for the strongest of men, much less some pencil necked internet warrior. And it is kind of hard to choke something that is much quicker than yourself, and is biting the shit out of you and maybe taking a finger or two in the process. And if that dog goes for your face, you are going to crawl up and do your best to protect your face from being ripped to pieces. Medium sized dog? Well a pit bull is a medium size dog and these people claiming to beat one are hilarious.

    And so many seem to think they can beat a 110-120lb male chimp? There are some male chimps smaller but some as large as 150lbs. This is beyond hilarious. Take the toughest human you know, put them in a room and let that person purposely start to agitate a wild chimpanzee, one who has had little contact with a human. Let that person really piss that chimp off and see what happens. It won’t be pretty.

    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
  67. Trinity says:
    @Triteleia Laxa

    That was a little skirmish, hardly a chimp in full attack mode. About as realistic as watching two male dogs spar with each other. IF that chimp had “bad intentions” and really wanted to slaughter that biologist it would have happened. Obviously you are not aware of some of the stories that have come out over the years of chimps ripping and biting ears, noses, and even genitals off of adult human beings.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  68. @Trinity

    We took different conclusions from watching the video, but I notice that, against the video, strength statistics and African village experiences, you, and those arguing along with you, only have breathlessness. I therefore remain believing what I believed.

  69. @Triteleia Laxa

    Care to show us a picture of this dog’s neck that is as big as a healthy human torso?

    Don’t say you weren’t warned…

    • LOL: Blinky Bill, Trinity
    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  70. Rich says:
    @AKAHorace

    My old aunts that grew up back then were tough as nails. They gave birth in the morning in the kitchen, and had dinner ready that night. They either worked farms, or walked everywhere, carrying food, laundry and children. No way I’d go with the tattooed, pot bellied, 4 inch heel wearing lazy office workers of today.

    • Agree: Ultrafart the Brave
  71. @Pericles

    Animals tend toward shyness for good reason – you can see this even with predators when hunting large prey. Any injury can be permanent, even from a “won” fight, with infections easily becoming fatal and even temporarily broken bones can have downsides; e.g. wolves will take care of their injured packmates, but it may have status penalties.

  72. gT says:
    @AP

    Those lions in North and Central Africa are all small and hairy compared to the ones in Southern Africa, the Middle Eastern lions were probably the smallest. So the Romans were using small lions against tigers.

    Then what tigers where the Romans using, Bengal tigers were too far away. The Romans were probably using the tigers which were to be found in Turkey and the Caucasus up to Chechnya and beyond. Those were literally Siberian tigers, their range used to stretch in a narrow belt from Turkey to the Siberian Pacific, now they only occur there in the Far East.

  73. @Ultrafart the Brave

    This is a better representation of the same dog. It lacks the perspective effect or use of very short people.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/BBAa5t65MU1xKDf27

    English Mastiffs are also the very heaviest dogs. They are an extreme example. I can see how all, but the biggest humans, would struggle greatly against them.

    Mastiffs can healthily weigh 250lbs, but then that Icelandic strongman weighed twice that. He also deadlifted 5 times that. The extremes of humans are extreme.

  74. @Triteleia Laxa

    This is a better representation of the same dog.

    No it’s not. It’s not the same dog. Same breed – different dog – in fact, not even an actual dog, just an artist’s rendition of a dog.

    It lacks the perspective effect…

    … perspective effect?

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_N-lLFhD7bxE/S2eG2hO1ZPI/AAAAAAAABzU/Xac2XDjNIO4/s1600/World

    No perspective involved – that’s just one frigging big dog, almost as big as a horse.

    … or use of very short people.

    … very short people?

    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_N-lLFhD7bxE/S2eGh-Rqf4I/AAAAAAAABy8/bIJctE1hG_c/s1600/World

    Looks like a normal, regular, everyday woman to me. Perhaps the fact that she’s seated makes her very short? No,not really. It’s just a frigging big dog, whose neck exceeds the woman’s girth.

    Mastiffs can healthily weigh 250lbs, but then that Icelandic strongman weighed twice that.

    So did John Candy.

    He also deadlifted 5 times that.

    I’m sure that frigging big dog could happily chew the strongman’s arm off way before the strongman chewed the dog’s leg off.

    The extremes of humans are extreme.

    Not extreme enough, unless they’re the Wolverine – but that’s just being silly.

  75. @Triteleia Laxa

    Agreed. That particular dog strikes me as the canine equivalent of a Bjornsson or Andre the Giant.

    Either of them would easily take that English Mastiff, though yes, average man would be screwed in this edge case.

    • Replies: @Trinity
  76. songbird says:

    What about one of those really big rabbits? Could we breed battle-rabbits, with enough generations?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Giant_rabbit

    • Replies: @Inselaffen
  77. songbird says:

    I shall fight any dog, wolf, tiger, or lion – matched to my age.

    • LOL: Triteleia Laxa
  78. AP says:
    @songbird

    It was on the news and there was a video awhile ago of grizzly bears at a zoo killing a wolf (the two species were housed together). The rest of the wolf pack tried hard to save their comrade but were totally ineffective; the grizzlies were huge and furry and didn’t seem to notice the wolves’ attempts at biting them. I don’t think an individual grizzly would have fared differently.

    • Thanks: songbird
  79. @songbird

    supposedly some ancient lost civilizations did just that…

    • Agree: mal, songbird
  80. Vendetta says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    Big difference in whether you’re talking about lions or lionesses. The lioness is a pack hunter. The lion hunts alone if he’s by himself or lets the lionesses do it for him if he’s part of a pride.

    Male lions also fight against one another in battles for dominance quite often. More so than tigers, who occasionally clash over territory but live a solitary lifestyle and rarely come into contact with one another. Lions compete with each other to build harems, and can obtain or maintain theirs only by fighting off challenges from other males.

    The average lion will thus have taken part in far more cat-on-cat fights than the average tiger, so experience would actually be a factor weighing in on his side.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  81. Trinity says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Actually I would take Eddie Hall who is training for a boxing match against Bjornsson. Hall is only about 6’3″ which is only short when compared to the “The Mountain” who is 6’8″ or so. Hall, the former Worlds Strongest Man, was a good swimmer before switching over to Strongman events and can still swim like a shark even as huge as he is, and judging by their training videos preparing for this boxing match, I am picking the much more athletic Hall. Eddie Hall has some good power in his punches and is EXCEPTIONALLY ATHLETIC for such a huge man. I would seriously consider taking Eddie Hall in a street fight over Mike Tyson. A boxing match, NO, a street fight, a great chance for Hall. Hall even used to spar with Hughie Fury just for some aerobic exercise. Hughie is the cousin of Tyson Fury, Hughie is no Tyson Fury but he is a WORLD CLASS BOXER AS WELL. Hall seems to have done sparring just to keep his ticker in some sort of shape on the side while he lifted enormous weights. IF Hall would have been born in America, he would have made a helluva an NFL player.

    Eddie Hall vs. 130lb male chimpanzee in full chimp out mode? The chimp every single time.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    , @Ola
  82. Trinity says:

    Put the toughest, fastest, strongest human being in the world out in the forest, jungle, mountains, ocean, sea or river, or desert, and he is near the bottom of the food chain. End of story.

    • Replies: @angmoh
  83. @Trinity

    Eddie Hall vs. 130lb male chimpanzee in full chimp out mode? The chimp every single time.

    Yes, the much weaker, much lighter, much stupider animal will win “every single time”.

    I have no more reasonable explanation for your certainty in all of this than your Dad being a chimp and this being playground talk.

    You keep making hysterical assertions and provide no reason to believe them. Bombastic language is off-putting; not persuasive.

    • Replies: @Trinity
  84. No material number of people in that survey have ever come up against a goose. They strike below the belt. Sometimes not so very far below! I think I’d take on a panther in preference.

    And then wolves. They are not dogs. Maybe a elderly European wolf could be beaten but a Canadian timber wolf in its prime, no chance. Chimps are fast, long limbed and have killer class teeth as well as strength.

    Without weapons getting a kill on almost all of those animals would be very difficult.

    • Replies: @songbird
  85. Trinity says:
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Actually I know what I am talking about and you are the IDIOT.

  86. songbird says:
    @Philip Owen

    They should have asked about swans.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
  87. songbird says:

    If you could somehow hack the brain of animals by implanting neurolink, to make them more aggressive or target certain areas, then I think that would change the math in a lot of these encounters.

    For example, once a red squirrel (American) jumped nearly straight on the back of my neck. My first hint of him was the scritchity scratch of his claws on my back, and a rather large dog was directly behind me.

    Speaking of hacking the brain, I wonder if rabies would change the outcome of any fight, just as a factor of aggression.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  88. @Boomthorkell

    They were common as pets amongst royals and aristocrats in Persia and Persian derived cultures in India etc.

    • Replies: @AP
  89. AP says:
    @Philip Owen

    Yes, I heard that cheetahs are rather domesticable, more so than any other wild cats. Although a lynx or bobcat are much smaller they would make more dangerous pets.

  90. @songbird

    This is sort of possible.

    https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-man-who-fought-a-bull-with-mind-control

    But yes, of course, an animal that finds itself incapable of fear or hesitation is significantly more dangerous.

    • Thanks: songbird
  91. Mr. Hack says:

    Eagles are incredibly well adapted to killing prey and especially at evoking fear in their adversaries. I recently returned from a trip home in Minnesota where I had the opportunity to observe wildlife operate in their natural environment like the magnificent pelicans that glide so very effortlessly over the water, to huge 15 lb catfish that are quite ferocious in their own right. Several of my family members told me about a day when 3 eagles came in soaring to their backyard ending up perching on trees nearby. One of the three was extremely large and had an incredible wingspan that all mentioned with fear and awe in their voices. Even if not massive in weight these creatures more than makeup for their “light weight” by having incredible vision, and very strong and deadly claws and an incredibly hatchet like beak. There are good reasons why the mighty eagle has been placed in high regard and respect by many cultures around the world. As if to make a point, the eagles left a trophy of their kill (the carcass) all bloodied up on their charming veranda – two nights in a row! It’s hard for me to imagine that a human being, with no weapons, would come out on top in a fight to the finish with an eagle.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @Triteleia Laxa
  92. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    A swift kick would do an eagle in. But an eagle could do much damage with its beak and claws. It would be like getting into a fight with a living bundle of knives.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  93. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    painted by Les Kouba, world famous wildlife painter from Hutchinson, MN.

  94. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Yes and no. It’s extremely rare, but anything can happen. I wouldn’t want to be the one that tries to withstand an attack (and attacks do occur). In my family’s neighborhood, people are on the lookout and keep their house pets in the house. My family was totally mesmerized by the sighting, the largest one really seemed to have a large wingspan. I watched several pelicans gliding around, with binoculars too, a real treat for me to see.

    https://onlyzoology.com/do-eagles-attack-humans-are-eagles-dangerous-how-badly-can-they-attack-humans/

  95. @Mr. Hack

    At that weight, and will hollow bones, I suspect a forceful blow would break anything it connected with.

  96. @Vendetta

    The average lion will thus have taken part in far more cat-on-cat fights than the average tiger, so experience would actually be a factor weighing in on his side.

    Your reasoning and logic are flawless, yet I still have a bias for the tigers.

    Maybe it’s because the lions are just so scruffy and unkempt compared to the sophisticated markings of a tiger. Or maybe a tiger has a higher pain threshold from living a life solitude. Or maybe a pissed off tiger is just more ornery than a pissed off lion – or not.

    If only we could talk to the animals, maybe they’d give us the inside story.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  97. angmoh says:
    @Trinity

    I’ve chatted about this poll with a few IRL people and this is the prevailing normie wisdom. Of course it’s totally wrong. The poll is about a 1 on 1 cage fight – totally artificial scenario.

    A Battle Royale in mixed environment (a la Hunger Games) is kind of what you’re talking about with the talk of throwing someone into the jungle or wherever. Of course nature is a Battle Royale of sorts, and humans have already won this competition in the real world (and no, it’s not because of working in groups – many examples of modern hunter gatherers spending a lot of time hunting alone).

    In a Battle Royale scenario the only thing stopping assured human advantage in are time controls that force more risk taking or non-combat risks. With time, a reasonably competent human can cobble together traps / weapons to defeat any anymal. In this context humans are the only animal with a hope of taking down stuff like elephant/hippo (with traps / planning). Victory for the human would be far from assured, but they are likely the favourite.

    Anyway on the 1 on 1 fights – the chimp/wolf discussion is interesting, I’d swallowed the normie factoids about chimps but yeah, 2x weight is pretty massive. That said, their physical weapons are a lot better (teeth), and it’s not unheard of for predators to take down prey 2x their weight. I’d classify human physical tools as well into the ‘prey’ side of the animal spectrum compared to chimps and wolves of course.

  98. @Ultrafart the Brave

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion

    Tiger wins.

    Karlin Romans had now extinct Caspian Tigers which were larger than Bengalis.

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  99. @AltanBakshi

    Lifted from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_tiger

    In an incident at the San Francisco Zoo in December 2007, a tiger escaped and killed a visitor, and injured two others… One of the victims admitted to taunting the animal.

    Moral of the story – never piss off a tiger.

    • Replies: @UNIT472
  100. Ola says: • Website
    @Trinity

    Eddie Hall vs. 130lb male chimpanzee in full chimp out mode? The chimp every single time.

    You are right. Most other people here are as deluded as the people taking the YouGov poll.

    A recent study on Ray Williams, world record holder super heavy weight powerlifter, revealed a body mass of 183 kg and a muscle mass of 58 kg. That’s less than twice the muscle mass of a skinny 65 kg man. Even with loads of steroids and drugs there are hard limits to the amount of muscle you can gain.

    So, though his muscle size and strength is enormous, his muscle percentage is still only 32%. That means his muscle percentage is lower than that of an average lean woman (37%) and that in turn means that his relative strength is less than that of an average lean woman.

    Relative strength determines how fast you can move and is the main factor of general athleticism. Enormous, doped-up guys like Williams, Hall and Bjornsson are not athletic, and do not move fast.

    Chimps are on the other end of the spectrum, much higher muscle percentage than the most athletic men. They have underdeveloped legs and buttocks compared to human and thus don’t weigh that much, nor run fast on two legs. But they can jump around like squirrels on speed. And their upper body strength relative to their weight is off the charts.

    They also have massive jaws and teeth. Sure Hall and Bjornsson could get lucky with a punch, but my money would be on the chimp 99.99% of the time against any man (naked and without tools/weapons)

    • Thanks: Trinity
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  101. Mr. Hack says:
    @Ola

    I once was the first person in the morning to enter the guerilla exhibit at a large popular zoo. It was one of those newer type exhibits, made to make the exhibited animal feel like it was in its own natural environment. There didn’t seem to be any of the large apes within the indoor part of the exhibit full of large rocks when all of a sudden I was greeted with a very loud smashing sound of a large guerilla that was pounding on the plexi glass that separated me from the energetic ape. It was a very large thunderous sound that scared the you know what right out of me. He was now one foot away from me
    running around within. I shudder to think of the damage that a blow like that could do to a human being.

    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
  102. @AP

    My guess is that if that guy had a gun, he would fit into “Sailer’s Law of Mass Shootings”…

    As for the larger question posed by AK, as I stated on iSteve, it is not sensible to imagine match-ups of unarmed men against animals. Just as the human digestive system has evolved in conjunction with cooking, the human musculo-skeletal system has evolved in the context of tools as well. Big cat vs man is one thing; big cat vs man-with-spear is another.

  103. Vendetta says:
    @AltanBakshi

    The full list of accounts seems to indicate the results are about 50-50, with a slight advantage to the tiger.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  104. Pontius says:

    I read a very interesting book on grizzlies many years ago where records from settlers in the west stated that a male grizzly had no problem pulling two large male horses when lassoed. I once saw a picture of a dead grizzly taken down by some guy with a 30-30. It was 1590lbs. The paws looked like the size of shovels. I have a hard time believing even a Siberian Tiger would have a chance against something like that. A grizzly put in the ring against a mature male lion “killed it so fast no one was really sure how he did it.” I don’t think a polar bear would even be a match for one, although they are probably more dangerous to humans. With regards to bears, there is a saying, “if it’s black, fight back. If it’s brown, lie down. If it’s white, say goodnight.

    King Cobra is probably the winner overall though. Unless you are a Mongoose of Honey Badger.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  105. @Pontius

    I believe Polar Bears are the only animal to actively hunt humans. They are also the largest land carnivore. It therefore seems that Racist Bear is truly the alpha predator, excluding technology.

  106. I think there’s too much optimism regarding human strength here. Humans have a lot of stamina, so if we survive the first round intact, our chances greatly improve against many animals. We could beat many animals in a marathon with a little training. (Most animals would not manage it at all within the cutoff time.) But fighting with our bare hands is not what we evolved for, so unsurprisingly we are not very good at it. If weapons like clubs or spears are allowed, we’d have reasonable chances even alone. If cooperation is allowed as well, we can easily win against most animal species even if outnumbered and the technology limited.

    Here’s what I think about an unarmed cage fight against a chimp.

    Chimpanzees are very strong relative to size (yes, 50% stronger for the same muscle mass is a lot), and they are also much faster than any human. Their muscle mass relative to body weight is also afaik significantly higher than for humans, humans rarely achieve so low body fat percentages as chimps, so they will be significantly stronger relative to body weight than even the 1.5 multiplier would suggest. Also the much higher percentage of fast twitch Type II muscle fibers not only makes them much stronger, but also much faster. The bigger human body weight is only an advantage if you can land your kicks and punches. You would need a lot of luck with hitting such a fast moving target.

    I would also propose that you need to forget punching a chimp. First, they are so short (and will spend so much time on all fours) that it will be very difficult to punch them anyway. Second, they have a much smaller and simpler brain (more difficult to damage) inside a much thicker and denser skull. Tyson (whichever Tyson) would probably break his knuckles sooner than he could knock out a chimp.

    So you would need to kick him, but the chimp’s speed and much stronger bones would still pose a difficulty. I would think Tyson would also not be the ideal person for kicking. (Are boots allowed? I would think not, it’d be cage fighting barefoot.)

    There’s the possibility of trying to wrestle the chimp. So Karelin rather than Tyson. But it would be biting. In fact, it would be biting no matter what you tried. Why not?

    The general rule is that you avoid fighting with your bare hands anyone with a knife (or any other similar stabbing or cutting weapons), unless you are a Hollywood protagonist. Why do you think this rule doesn’t apply to chimps with their huge (by human standards) teeth, especially canines?

    I would think even exceptional human fighters would need a lot of luck against an average male chimp. The biggest chimp male can weigh 70 kilograms according to Wikipedia. I would bet these are the ones with the biggest canines and strongest skulls, too. Against such an alpha chimp, even a lot of luck might not be enough.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  107. @reiner Tor

    Chimpanzees are very strong relative to size (yes, 50% stronger for the same muscle mass is a lot), and they are also much faster than any human. Their muscle mass relative to body weight is also afaik significantly higher than for humans, humans rarely achieve so low body fat percentages as chimps, so they will be significantly stronger relative to body weight than even the 1.5 multiplier would suggest.

    I don’t understand how you arrive at your final conclusion. A 1.5 multiplier of bodyweight is a 1.5 multiplier of bodyweight, regardless of body fat percentage. Am I missing something?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  108. @Triteleia Laxa

    I read again Karlin’s article. The first time I misunderstood and thought 1.5 times muscle mass rather than body weight. So I stand corrected.

    Does it change the big picture? A 55 kilogram average chimp will be roughly as strong as, but much faster than, a reasonably fit 80-85 kilogram human male, armed with a knife (but also capable of using both hands at the same time).

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  109. @reiner Tor

    I think it does. Your body is your weapon and the bigger and heavier the better. To take it to extremes, I doubt a chimp would be able to get up, nevermind fight, if a 200kg man merely sat on it.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  110. @Triteleia Laxa

    A chimp jumps so fast around that it’d be quite a feat sitting on it at all. Now sitting on it would not be enough, you would need to find a position where the chimp cannot bite you. (You’d need to reach the position that way in the first place.) You’d need to prevent it from moving much, too.

    I struggle to imagine how you would sit on the chimp at all. The chimp would be dancing and jumping around searching for weak points, attacking and then retreating to safety, only to jump into you again from an angle it considers advantageous. Each such attack would probably include biting you, though many of them might not cause strong injuries.

    Maybe you can kick it in a vulnerable point, but it’s probably not very easy, given its superior speed.

    I have seen box matches where the faster guy was dancing around the slower one until he was knocked out by one lucky punch. (Not so lucky, considering that the stronger guy had several rounds to land just one punch.) But would it even be possible if the faster guy had a way thicker and denser skull and a knife which he could not possibly lose during the fight?

    Again. If you survived the first few minutes (I don’t know how much time, but probably the Type II fibers would need regeneration after a few minutes) without suffering serious injuries, your chances would improve greatly, but it’s a very big if.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  111. UNIT472 says:
    @Ultrafart the Brave

    I remember that incident. As I recall the Tiger climbed up the side of the pit and stalked the idiots who had been taunting it, i.e., he wasn’t just after people but the specific people who had angered and thrown sticks at him.

    • Thanks: Ultrafart the Brave
  112. @reiner Tor

    It wouldn’t be like boxing at all. The much stronger and heavier human would likely get hit, grab one of the chimp’s limbs and then do whatever they felt necessarily.

    How heavy are you?

    Picking someone up who is 50% lighter than me is easy, even if they are wailing on me; and that’s with me being completely unwilling to inflict any pain back whatsoever.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  113. @Triteleia Laxa

    So you don’t think the chimp would be able to bite at all, or you think that it wouldn’t be a big deal. I disagree. I also don’t think it’s that easy to grab a chimp’s limbs, and it’s even more difficult to prevent it from biting your face while holding its limbs (presumably arms).

    Regarding the rest. I’m roughly 80 kg, slightly less, so the smallest male chimps would be a little over half my weight. A 40 kg human male would be a 12 year old child, but I’d avoid picking a fight with a knife wielding 12 year old (presumably a Gypsy boy). As mentioned a 40 kg chimp would be significantly more dangerous than a 40 kg Gypsy boy with a knife. The chimp cannot lose its canines, can use the canines the same time as both arms and hands, can jump and move much faster, and has the strength of a 60 kg 16 year old. The chimp also has much denser bones and its skull is not only denser but also thicker. So quite unlike the fragile structure of a 12 or 16 year old boy.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  114. @reiner Tor

    A knife is better than chimp teeth. Knives are much sharper than anything in nature. Humans killed 6 ton wooly mammoths with less sharp implements on sticks!

    Have you ever had a motorbike accident or anything like that? Did you notice that the pain didn’t became a thing until you were sure you were safe to feel it? A chimp could bite you, and you could kick its skull into the ground.

    I guess a lot of this is speculation, but the basic statistics, along with the video of a chimp wailing on a scrawny human, are convincing enough for me.

    I suppose it isn’t enough you. May we both never get in a chimp fight!

    I also notice that most, not you, of the more manic chimp boosters go on and on about how chimps will castrate the human. That repetitive focus on that particular injury leads me to be very curious about them.

  115. By the way I think reasonably fit men are rarely above 100 kg, they are usually less than that. I know a few people who are strong and sometimes even agile while heavier, but usually 100+ kg guys are simply fat.

    So I think only a very small portion of reasonably fit males are double the weight of the average 55 kg chimp.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  116. @Vendetta

    …the results are about 50-50, with a slight advantage to the tiger.

    Although a bit rough, the figures quoted at the following site have both the average and largest tigers bigger than their lion counterparts by a good margin.

    https://www.ligerworld.com/biggest-tiger-ever-recorded.html

    From that site:

    The largest tiger ever recorded was a captive animal named Jaipur weighing 935 lbs.
    The biggest captive lion was 826 lbs.

    Claims for the largest wild tiger range from 771 to 847 lbs.
    The biggest wild lion was 690 lbs.

    [MORE]

    Meanwhile, taking a different tack –

    https://anthropology.net/2007/07/17/bili-apes-the-giant-lion-eating-chimps-of-the-magic-forest/

    These apes (which are an actual species, not an urban legend) have the appearance of chimpanzees but the size of gorillas. While apparently unaggressive toward and generally disinterested in humans, these giant chimpanzees are called “Lion Killers” by the local people because that’s what they do.

    I wonder how the forum’s prospective chimp-fighters would fare against these babies?

    Switching back to the tigers-vs-lions debate, I wonder who would win out of these specimens?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  117. Incidentally, why has the list of animals to fight excluded baboons?

    Or mandrills?

    I challenge any bare-handed human to face off against a fully grown male of either of these species and live to tell the tale.

  118. @reiner Tor

    Yes, thank you, I would have been better writing the 50% adjustment the other way around.

    Here’s a video of !extremely! dangerous chimps to make up for it.

  119. @Ultrafart the Brave

    Bili apes, from the Wikipedia, are just chimps. One was caught eating a leopard, well, humans can beat leopards unarmed too.

    Probably strong, fit, brave human males can beat Bili apes just as reliably as normal chimps.

    Gorillas will ofc destroy any human, there’s no contest.

    • Replies: @Ultrafart the Brave
  120. @Anatoly Karlin

    One was caught eating a leopard…

    Yeah, but it was a really big leopard!

    Probably strong, fit, brave human males can beat Bili apes just as reliably as normal chimps.

    Au contrare, Anatoly-San.

    Your error is in allowing Wikipedia to lull you into dismissal of the unusual.

    The Bili Apes are chimpanzees, that is true, but they are frigging big chimpanzees.

    [MORE]

    There are apparently two groups of chimpanzees living in the region where the Bili Apes are found, a tree-dwelling group and a larger kind with darker fur that likes to nest on the ground. The latter are the notorious Bili Apes of historical controversy.

    From https://www.primatespark.com/bili-chimpanzee/

    Billy chimpanzee Classification

    Class: Mammalia
    Order: Primates
    Family: Hominidae
    Genus: Chimpanzee

    According to the preliminary genetic research, the Bili apes are intently associated with the eastern subspecies of the chimpanzee – Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii.

    Size

    Height: above 152 cm (above 5ft)
    Length of the skull:
    about 22 cm (8.7 in) (4 out of 5 discovered skulls are longer than chimpanzee’s skull, measuring 220 mm, whereas chimpanzee’s skull might attain 190 – 210 mm (7.5 – 8.3 in)
    Length of feet: 28 – 34 cm (11 – 13.4 in) – bigger than the biggest chimpanzees and gorillas

    Here’s an artist’s impression of the relative size of the various apes –

    Here’s some video of actual Bili Apes –

    And here’s the largest specimen so far captured on camera by scientists –

  121. @Triteleia Laxa

    I also notice that most, not you, of the more manic chimp boosters go on and on about how chimps will castrate the human.

    I think a more pressing concern would be the chimpanzee ripping off one’s head and stuffing it up one’s butt.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  122. @Mr. Hack

    I once was the first person in the morning to enter the guerilla exhibit at a large popular zoo.

    Guerilla? Was it Che Guevara?

  123. Trinity says:

    Waiting for a PPV fight between these internet warriors against a fully grown ENRAGED AND NOT DRUGGED WILD MALE CHIMPANZEE. Of course I wouldn’t want that to happen because I am an animal lover and even internet warriors don’t deserve to be mangled like that. lololol.

    Good gawd, you clowns are now claiming to be able to kill leopards with your bare hands as well. What next? You kill a crocodile with just a knife like Tarzan.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  124. @Trinity

    It does exist actually, though the stories I found always involved small females (30 kg perhaps), and often wounded with a weapon before being finished in a bare hands struggle. But even this year there was a story about an Indian villager killing some small female leopard without weapons.

    https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/karnataka-man-strangles-leopard-death-after-animal-attacks-him-and-family-144088

    The cougar killed by an unarmed runner was a kitten 3-4 months old and weighing 16-18 kilograms.

    https://www.kansas.com/news/nation-world/national/article227053504.html

    Overall it’s clearly not impossible, but perhaps large males would be different.

    The struggles in each of these cases lasted relatively long, so probably the animals got quickly tired after being unable to kill early on.

  125. @Triteleia Laxa

    Well apparently chimps do attack the genitalia, but in most chimp attack stories it was not mentioned so I didn’t want to talk about it as I thought it’d be a distraction how frequently it does happen. Getting your genitals ripped off by a wild animal is certainly the kind of situation where “winning” becomes meaningless, so I guess that’s why it’s mentioned by commenters so frequently.

    Regarding the pain. It also depends on how serious the injuries are. If they are serious enough, it won’t be the pain which will be the issue, rather the injury itself. For example losing fingers is something that happens in many chimp attack stories. It obviously hampers your ability to fight, for example it might prevent your strategy of grabbing the chimp and throwing it to the ground (or to a tree or a rock?), as fingers are essential for this strategy.

    Grabbing limbs (I guess arms, since grabbing the legs seems to require a chimp already lying on the ground) is fine, but preventing the chimp from biting off your face seems difficult. (Your arms would be used to restrain the arms grabbed, so it’d be difficult to do anything about his canines.) Again, maybe such an injury wouldn’t be debilitating in the fight (unless you lose your eyes), but it’d make any victory almost meaningless.

    Maybe you guys are correct, but even defeating a chimp is something I wouldn’t want to do, given the horrible injuries one could suffer.

    • LOL: Yevardian
  126. JL says:

    the kind of situation where “winning” becomes meaningless

    This entire discussion is fun and entertaining, but entirely theoretical and ultimately a bit silly. Does winning mean you survive your encounter a few more minutes/hours/days than your opponent? By WBF standards, you won, by the laws of nature, more like a draw. Also, would modern medical care be available to either or both participants? This changes things quite a bit as well. Even a minor laceration can easily become infected if left untreated.

    Humans seem ill adapted to this type of fight, we are more deliberate and rely on cognitive abilities. Anyone who has been injured by any type of animal, whether a chicken or dog or whatever, will relate how difficult it is to even comprehend the speed and ferocity of their actions once they’ve decided to attack. Still, I’d put more confidence in a prehistoric human than a modern one, whose instincts would be more honed to this type of threat. Now, a prehistoric human with access to modern medical care would indeed be a very formidable creature.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @reiner Tor
    , @reiner Tor
  127. AP says:
    @JL

    Does winning mean you survive your encounter a few more minutes/hours/days than your opponent

    I think it would mean the loser is killed or flees.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  128. @AP

    I guess it’s about a cage fight. Otherwise it’s easy to win against a grizzly bear, the bear will usually just avoid you, and you can immediately claim a “win.”

    So an angry (or hungry) animal charging at you in a cage, and you defeating it MMA style. Obviously animals cannot tap, so it’s only a win if you proceed to kill or at least incapacitate it.

    Both parties can get medical help afterwards. At least that’s how I imagined the question.

    So it was basically a question of raw physical fighting ability. Teeth and claws are allowed, but knives, spears or firearms are not.

  129. @JL

    A few years ago I was in a small town with my daughter. It was maybe October, the weather was getting cold, and my daughter wanted to enter a playground and then stay there seemingly forever. Then once we finally managed to leave to get to the car, she was still slow and kept getting distracted. A big dog got her attention, she wanted to pet it, but the old owner said she shouldn’t touch the dog. He ordered the dog to sit down, and the dog (which was also on a leash) promptly complied. My daughter was still fascinated with the dog (it was a Belgian Shepherd), and stood roughly one meter from it when it suddenly decided to attack her. The dog jumped on her in a fraction of a second. Neither stupid me (I should’ve ordered my daughter to go), standing right next to my daughter, nor the owner, holding the dog on a leash, had the time to react before the dog was already on top of my daughter. Its canine made a shallow wound on my daughter’s face (it could be seen for a long while, in fact it hasn’t completely disappeared, though now it’s almost impossible to notice), and within a second the owner pulled it back with the leash, and ordered the dog back to a sitting position. The dog complied again, and this time it stayed there. The owner didn’t have the vaccination certificate on his person (though he lived nearby, so I could have gone to his home), but he thoroughly apologized and gave me all his contact information and let me make a photo of his ID. He also promised to give me the vaccination certificate the next day, which he did.

    The thing I learned from this is that it would be pretty difficult to fight a big dog, as it would be so much faster than I am, and that their teeth are pretty sharp. (They barely touched the face of my daughter and caused a wound.) I’m not sure what a wolf or a big shepherd dog like a Hungarian Kuvasz or Komondor would be capable of, but I wouldn’t want to find it out. Maybe someone bigger and stronger than I am could kill the dog or wolf, but it’s difficult to imagine that it wouldn’t be at least pretty dangerous for any man involved.

    • Replies: @Tom Marvolo Riddle
  130. @JL

    This entire discussion is fun and entertaining, but entirely theoretical and ultimately a bit silly.

    Yes.

  131. @Triteleia Laxa

    50% of the US/UK population is medically obese, and about 90% are cowards. I think they have accurately represented themselves here, perhaps have even overestimated themselves, as sad as that may seem. Most of the fights I have been in ended in less than 30 seconds, and not because I’m a great fighter. The other guy just gave up as soon as he took a few blows, or more often, as soon as I advanced on him, and I’m a small guy at 140 lbs. Did lose one pretty badly, one of my ribs is still a bit janky from it. SoCal native.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  132. @Tom Marvolo Riddle

    Why would your opponents want to fight? It comes with no reward and has considerable risks.

    • Replies: @Tom Marvolo Riddle
  133. @reiner Tor

    Never fought a dog but I’d imagine you wait for it to pounce, dodge, and then attempt a headlock. Stared one down once tho. It came up barking at me and my gf while we were walking. It barked for 5 seconds while she hid behind me then it ran away. I did absolutely nothing but got credit for “saving her”. It was pretty sweet. One attacked me at night once too but I was alone so I just jumped on a car like a coward lol.

  134. @Triteleia Laxa

    Idk, those all happened when I was 15-20. Pride? Girls? Mostly because of those I think. To show off or get revenge for some slight. I’m small 5’6 and white so maybe that’s why they thought I would puss out(Live near LA). It does work with girls, started going out with one who was way out of my league once by breaking up a fight at a party at her house.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
  135. @Tom Marvolo Riddle

    How would you distinguish between them being “cowards” and them not really wanting to fight?

    I don’t play Russian Roulette, but that has nothing to do with my courage.

    • Replies: @Tom Marvolo Riddle
  136. @Triteleia Laxa

    I never started anything lol, I’m not a bully I just didn’t want to be seen as a punk. High school is kinda like prison. At least where I went to HS. If you challenge someone, get up in their face then go into a half fetal position after getting hit twice, I’d call you a coward, and an idiot. It’s not always like that, sometimes we just fought for fun. I actually got injured the worst during one of those, wasn’t expecting the guy to take it serious. We called it going “bodies”. I don’t play russian roulette either lol. Nobody dies in a fight unless there’s weapons involved. Worst I got was a broken rib once.

  137. TimothyS says:

    Cape buffalo are not to be under-estimated. Here are some videos of fights against lions:
    https://leakreality.com/video/9259/cape-buffalo-earns-the-title-black-death-by-killing-lions

    That said, malarial Mosquitoes are the undisputed champion of mankillers.

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