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The Absolute State of British Nationalism
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On May 6, there was a big free speech march through Central London jointly organized by the Democratic Football Lads Alliance and Veterans Against Terrorism.

Many of the big names in the British Alt Lite were attending, so I decided to show up myself. (I appear in the sidelines a few times in this video of the march).

The march began at Speakers Corner in Hyde Park, a traditional meeting point for dissidents, preachers, and assorted ranting weirdos, went through central London, and culminated at the entrance to Downing Street.

I estimate turnout at 1,000-2,000 initially, swelling to 5,000 at the end. There were at least a couple of hundred police officers watching over the event. What I found interesting was that all of the “enforcement” was done by the event organizers. For instance, the police didn’t want the marchers to occupy the pavement, and so the event organizers would bark at rally participants to keep on the main thoroughfare whenever they strayed off. This is a huge contrast with Russian protest marchers, whose liberal organizers tend to be unremittingly hostile to and dismissive of the police.

Demographics:

  • Main component were white men, muscular-fat, tattooed prole types, the sort you associate with football hooligans;
  • Some lankier, muscular men with fashy haircuts;
  • The women were almost all prole whites – tend to lean on the pudgy side, lots of tattoos, fake tans;
  • Smattering of Based Black Guys (no women);
  • Foreigners: Americans in MAGA hats, tons of Poles, Mediterraneans, a few Israelis;
  • No Muslims.

Towards the end of the march, a number of people gave short speeches about Islam and freedom of speech.

First guy referred to a Belfast preacher who was charged with hate crimes for criticizing Islam, and then he quoted him directly, e.g. “Islam is a Satanic religion!”, and eliciting massive cheers. Clever way of avoiding hate charges yourself. Just quote other people.

Second guy was some comedian, who condemned Islam because… erm, Kuwaiti women aren’t allowed to get their tits out. (sic). Also “what about all the gay Muslims?”

Third guy was Gerard Batten, current head of UKIP. Boring, don’t recall what he said.

Fourth gal was Anne Marie Waters, head of For Britain. She had the best speech IMO, she’s a great rabble-rouser.

Fifth and last up the stage was Tommy Robinson, who was very much forgettable.

Well, apart from the finale, when he welcomed a drag queen to sing up the stage to prove that New Labour are the real transphobes.

Overall, it’s hard to remain optimistic about the prospects for British nationalism. They managed to bring out a total of about 5,000 people in the capital city on a sunny Sunday, and not even in the name of nationalism as such, but in the name of free speech – or more specifically, the right to make fun of Muslims without going to jail or getting kicked off Twitter. Which is also a laudable goal, but it isn’t quite the same thing.

Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny.

***

london-march-1

Police began to gather early.

london-march-20

There were some antifa, but they didn’t try to disrupt the rally, probably because of the heavy police presence.

london-march-19

Facebook and Twitter censorship against Alt Right voices were a big issue. Note Based Black Guy on the left.

london-march-18

The Chad Preacher: “The Bible guarantees free speech, not the Koran.”

london-march-17

Vegans.

london-march-16

Random based britbong: “Not a commie maggot in sight.”

london-march-15

Based Thot.

london-march-14

Based Black Guy.

london-march-13

Literal AngloZionists. 🙂

london-march-12

Leaving Hyde Park.

london-march-11

Unironically based Brit.

london-march-10

Britbong biker gang… quaint if underwhelming.

london-march-9

Shepherding deplorables off the sidewalks.

london-march-8

london-march-7

There were probably around 5,000 people in attendance, which is around the size of your average Navalny rally. But unlike the latter, nationalist protests are never going to make top of /r/worldnews.

london-march-6

Speeches in front of Downing Street.

london-march-5

Based Fedora Guy.

london-march-4

March no further.

london-march-3

Anne Marie Waters.

london-march-2

The end.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Alt Right, Free Speech, The AK, Travel, United Kingdom 
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  1. What about Count Dankula?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Don't worry, our heroes have thrust a stake through the heart of Count Dankula and his corpse has been enbalmed with garlic.

    The citizens of uh... Britain need not fear to leave the comforts of their nightclubs and their dingy pubs at night no more.

    , @Randal

    What about Count Dankula?
     
    I get the impression he's pretty much a lefty, isn't he? Which is why establishment leftists (comedians etc) feel safe in publicly backing his freedom of speech.

    Contrast with the treatment of figures who genuinely threaten the establishment, such as Alison Chabloz and Jez Turner, both charged with speech crimes as a direct result of jewish lobby influence (the latter convicted, the former awaiting a verdict):

    Free expression or permitted opinion: that is the choice – the conviction of Jez Turner
  2. Compare and contrast

    • LOL: Felix Keverich
    • Replies: @German_reader
    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George's cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
    Pretty depressing though..."does equality not apply to Islamists?" is a really lame slogan.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    It's like they're all under arrest already, and somehow don't realize it.
  3. Interesting, if depressing post, thanks. Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.

    • Replies: @TheJester

    Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.
     
    Agree that Britain is pretty much gone. Many of the nationalities in the EU face growing problems in sustaining a sense of nationhood in the face of massive immigration -- Britain, Sweden, France, Belgium. However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    Please welcome Britain as the first member of the Globalist Commonwealth of Something ... the world's first homogeneous something dedicated to the celebration of LGTBxyz lifestyles available only to vegans and Wiccans. I know, this seems inconsistent with BREXIT. Go figure!

    We just returned from a vacation in Ireland. Fantastic people; excellent food. The take among some of the Irish we talked to is that Britain is leaving the EU to protect its welfare system from Africans, Eastern Europeans, and Caribbean Blacks who are stealing them blind. The Irish are closer to the scene; perhaps they have a better take on what is really going on.

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state. The truth comes out! All of the platitudes about globalism and human rights aside, the Swedes are primarily concerned about who finances their pensions and takes care of them in their old age.

    Seems that this was the same argument for opening the US borders to millions of Hispanics ... to pump and sustain what's left of the Social Security System.

    I detect a global trend:

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
    4. Women no longer have the time or interest to bear children (who would take care of them?).
    5. The demographic supporting the welfare state implodes as the population ages and dies.
    6. Eureka! Open the borders to millions (or is it billions?) of immigrants who will hopefully work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state.

    What! The new immigrants don't work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state? Instead, they also milk the welfare system to get their fair share until nothing is left. Oh, gracious! Sounds like a global Ponzi scheme to me.

    Nationalism aside, I guess we need a completely new model for the organization and functioning of the state in a post-industrial world.
  4. @DFH
    Compare and contrast

    https://crimethroughtimecollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/oswald_mosley_10_march_1940_worldwartwo-filminspector-com_1.jpg

    https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Yorkshire_NF.jpg

    https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article1691076.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/DSC_93930002903087860.jpg

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
    Pretty depressing though…”does equality not apply to Islamists?” is a really lame slogan.

    • Agree: Greasy William
    • Replies: @Randal

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
     
    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s - 1980s, when it was smeared as "racist". It probably also reflects the rise of Welsh and Scottish separatism (neither movement deserves the term nationalist, both being basically leftist movements that want to see their own putative countries absorbed into the EU and swamped by mass immigration out of fear of being "racist").

    Also the cross of St George is the English football fans' symbol.
    , @songbird
    Definitely. Of course, I am sure you know the Union Jack is a sort of amalgam between the English St. George's Cross and the Scottish Cross of St. Andrew. But, I'd not sure if it was damaged more by the Scottish independence movement, traitorous politicians who stood in front of it, or just the direct attack on native Brits, who want to reclaim their ethnic identity, rather than being insipidly and very evilly labeled "white British."

    That is another tangent: how many countries in Europe have crosses in their flags? At least, Britain, the Scandinavian countries, and Finland. I'd say that makes them explicitly Christian countries. Remarkable how feckless most of the politicians were.
  5. In a,country where the brother of the future king is the soon-to-be husband of a woke black woman, white nationalism will not get much Establishment support.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.
    , @Art Deco
    Her ancestry might be 1/3 negroid, if that. Her mother is a recognizable California type - steeped in New Age therapy culture. The father is a retired technician employed for decades in television production - and, by all appearances, emotionally fragile. They're long divorced. MM'ss already had a chunk taken out of her by the public animadversions of obnoxious siblings. There's no dignity in the Markle family.

    Meghan Markle herself is Hollywood - intensely interested in her personal appearance and in what she eats. Black American culture (the agreeable parts and the disagreeable parts) is not manifest in Meghan Markle. She's divorced and people with her personal history you don't expect to have aptitude for domestic life - too many taboos breached, too self-centered, too fixated on what pleases right now, too unreflective.
  6. CM says:

    Let’s be honest, most of them would happily deny other people their free speech if given the power. It’s a bit like that Katie Hopkins woman that’s always preaching about free speech, but unironically supports censoring and deleting accounts (on Twitter and eBay) that are supportive of Palestinian freedom, while at the same time condemning Twitter for deleting Alt-Right accounts. They’re just angry because it’s mostly their side that’s getting muzzled by Twitter or the government, but they’d happily do it to the other side and they’re not embarassed to admit that.

    • Replies: @leopard
    Nothing to be surprised.
  7. Why in Kek’s name were the vegans there?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    This was still at Speaker's Corner, I assume they weren't actually associated with the free speech march.
    , @Philip Owen
    Hitler was a vegan. The ariosophy thing includes the whole hippy package. Too intellectual for the EDL though.
  8. Well, nationalism’s complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most “nationalist” politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn “racists”, “antisemites” and “homophobes”, promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence – US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style “nationalists”) anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Is it possible for nationalists retreat to Scotland and form a holding pattern? Maybe rebuild Hadrian's Wall?

    Peace.
    , @Bragadocious
    American cultural pollution? LOL

    Americans put out lots of culture, yes. You Brits are under no obligation to consume any of it. But you do, whether it's the Ford Fiesta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, McDonald's or Facebook. This is your choice. Stop pretending like we're forcing any of it on you, or even care at all whether you notice it.

    And since I mentioned Facebook, let the record show that it was a rather benign social media platform used by people to keep in touch with their relatives and exes. Then the Brits got hold of it and turned it into an abusive platform used by pedos sweating in their Barney costumes. Leading, of course, to the "panic button" (Britain's sole "contribution" to the Internet in the last 20 years).

    Same goes for Twitter, btw. And now they're banning people left and right (though mostly right) thanks to the great example set by your hate speech hounds.

    And when it comes to cultural pollution, no one outdoes the British. Your music sucks, your films are atrocious ("Dunkirk" lol) and did I mention hate speech laws? Why yes I did. Coming soon to a city near you, thanks to the Brits.
    , @iffen
    All the way down to the last of the 3rd paragraph before "blame America first."
    , @Seamus Padraig
    A very astute comment on so many levels--and I say that as an American myself. You are right about Washington's baleful influence over Britain--not to mention the rest of Europe--and so was Enoch Powell. I'm sorry. I wish things were otherwise. Strangely enough, I sometimes feel as though our own country is under some sort of occupation, too.
    , @dfordoom

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence – US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.
     
    I agree entirely. The depressing thing is that these "British" "Nationalists" are all in favour of wallowing in American cultural filth.

    And of course most “nationalist” politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin.
     
    A nationalism that embraces feminism and LGBT madness deserves to die.

    At this point in time I think Britain might be better off under sharia law. Given a choice between Islamification and feminism/homo worship I'll choose Islamification.
    , @Tsar Nicholas


    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style “nationalists”) anywhere.
     
    The so-called nationalists in Wales and Scotland are motivated more by political correctness than by national identity. Feminism - actually extreme Feminazism - dominates parties like Plaid Cymru and God forbid that the party specifically established to promote the Welsh language should actually do anything more than virtue signal. A few yaeras back, a large company advertised for Polish-speaking workers in Carmarthen, once the parliamentary seat of the late Plaid leader Gwynfor Evans. And what did Plaid do? Why, they welcomed diversity of course, despite several laws being simultaneously broken by the transnational capiatlists.

    As for British nationalism in general, it's clear that yet again Anatoly is writing about something he has no clue about. London is no longer a British city in any meaningful sense. In June 2016 it rejected Brexit and when the rest of England and Wales failed to follow its lead, there were calls for it to seced and declare independence!

    If you want to find British nationalism you need to go to working class localities well away from Sadiqistan. You need to go to the former industrial areas - to places like south Wales, Stafford, Durham and Sunderland, the Labour-voting areas that caused the British equivalents of Karlin so much anguish on the blissful June night and morning nearly two years ago.
  9. @Daniel Chieh
    Why in Kek's name were the vegans there?

    This was still at Speaker’s Corner, I assume they weren’t actually associated with the free speech march.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Neoreactionary passivism seems increasingly appealing.
  10. @German_reader
    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George's cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
    Pretty depressing though..."does equality not apply to Islamists?" is a really lame slogan.

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”. It probably also reflects the rise of Welsh and Scottish separatism (neither movement deserves the term nationalist, both being basically leftist movements that want to see their own putative countries absorbed into the EU and swamped by mass immigration out of fear of being “racist”).

    Also the cross of St George is the English football fans’ symbol.

    • Replies: @DFH

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”
     
    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt 'Britishness' into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn't happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as 'English' the other day)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaMvsDmeO5g
    , @German_reader
    Well, as I've written before my father's English, and he makes a point of saying that he's English, not British, because Englishness is an ethnic identity based on descent. I suppose it's similar for at least some of those why fly the St George's flag. Its popularity must at least to some extent be a result of Britishness having become largely meaningless.
  11. There were some antifa, but they didn’t try to disrupt the rally, probably because . . .

    Probably because they secretly approved of the anti-nationalist, anti-Christian leaders of this rally.

  12. The Israeli flag says it all. British Israelism.

    • Replies: @DFH

    British Israelism
     
    That doesn't mean what I think you think it means
  13. @German_reader
    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George's cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
    Pretty depressing though..."does equality not apply to Islamists?" is a really lame slogan.

    Definitely. Of course, I am sure you know the Union Jack is a sort of amalgam between the English St. George’s Cross and the Scottish Cross of St. Andrew. But, I’d not sure if it was damaged more by the Scottish independence movement, traitorous politicians who stood in front of it, or just the direct attack on native Brits, who want to reclaim their ethnic identity, rather than being insipidly and very evilly labeled “white British.”

    That is another tangent: how many countries in Europe have crosses in their flags? At least, Britain, the Scandinavian countries, and Finland. I’d say that makes them explicitly Christian countries. Remarkable how feckless most of the politicians were.

  14. All pointless, this condemnation of Islam is just a way to look like a rebel but still remain kind of respectable. The real problem is mass non white immigration, miscegenation and the jew, whether some Pakistani is a devout muslim or if he is an Ali G type consumerist makes no difference, they are still not British. A non white land means the end of Britain, having these stupid free speech marches is not going to help British nationalism.

    • Agree: dfordoom, RadicalCenter
  15. @The Big Red Scary
    What about Count Dankula?

    Don’t worry, our heroes have thrust a stake through the heart of Count Dankula and his corpse has been enbalmed with garlic.

    The citizens of uh… Britain need not fear to leave the comforts of their nightclubs and their dingy pubs at night no more.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    But isn't the Nazi pug still on the loose?
  16. @Seraphim
    The Israeli flag says it all. British Israelism.

    British Israelism

    That doesn’t mean what I think you think it means

  17. Interesting hypothetical – what would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Well, if it hypothetically happened it would speak very highly of the courage of the British. A sizeable reason why the crowds are small and consist heavily of proles is that any public association with the rightists is "toxic" and essentially ends your life(look at the result of Kingdom Come: Deliverance's developer, who has to defend himself nearly daily, and he lives in a "based" country). Even some of his colleagues engage in some form of ritual deprecation of him, always making sure they distance themselves from him, so they might hope to be able to be employable in the industry.

    In Poland, one can still hope to have a normal life and job after participating in such a rally. Can you imagine working at say, a high level corporate manager at a clothing store such as H&M? Imagine getting photographed and then someone brings it up to your boss at the next meeting. You'll probably be fired immediately and, not only that, rapidly approach unemployability. If for some reason you seek legal recourse, most lawyers would probably not represent you; while the company that has fired you will likely use it for free publicity.

    Essentially any serious commitment to free speech is already over in most of the West as we know it. There's no defense against economic terrorism, and successful rightists are more likely than not to have dependent families, making them particularly vulnerable.

    , @Polish Perspective

    What would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.
     
    The elites did attack them in Poland, and successfully repressed them for a number of years. The nationalist march started under the previous neoliberal regime. How did we change the status quo? We threw them out. There are no guarantees that PiS will not transmogrify in the same direction given time. But if they do, we'll throw them out again, this time to more radical alternatives, but that will be the task for the next generation.

    75% of young poles prefer right-wing parties. It is 50% (PiS+Kukiz'15) for the general public. It's notable that 20%(!) of young Polish women support Korwin-Mikke's libertarian party, and given his quotes on feminism, Poland is probably your best bet if you want a libertarian-leaning, feminist-hating waifu.

  18. DFH says:
    @Randal

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
     
    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s - 1980s, when it was smeared as "racist". It probably also reflects the rise of Welsh and Scottish separatism (neither movement deserves the term nationalist, both being basically leftist movements that want to see their own putative countries absorbed into the EU and swamped by mass immigration out of fear of being "racist").

    Also the cross of St George is the English football fans' symbol.

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”

    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as ‘English’ the other day)

    • Replies: @Randal
    That's certainly how I remember the use of the Union Jack becoming deeply unfashionable in the late C20th, and overtaken in most public displays by the Cross of St George, even amongst nationalists looking to distinguish themselves from the older NF/BM/BNP groups.

    the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as ‘English’ the other day)
     
    This is clearly also an issue, and I can recall myself trying to use the distinction between British and English for that purpose (distinguishing between passport holders and their offspring (British), and descendants of the longstanding indigenous inhabitants of the islands (English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish)) in the past. Of course, a large part of the "English" sports teams are also not really English in that sense.

    Doesn't surprise me at all that the likes of Javid are trying to co-opt Englishness as well.
    , @Matra
    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness

    Right. When Blair got elected in 1997 the Union flag made a bit of a comeback of sorts because it now represented Cool Britannia rather than the stodgy old Rule Britannia. At the time I recall some pop stars, usually identified with the left, suddenly being proud to be British. Blacks born in England are now more likely to describe themselves as 'British' full stop without reference to their parents' background, but rarely ever as 'English'. I wonder if Sikhs in Scotland and blacks in Wales also call themselves 'British', or does the multiculti/prog nationalist image of those places make them more willing to embrace the local identity.
  19. @Hyperborean
    Don't worry, our heroes have thrust a stake through the heart of Count Dankula and his corpse has been enbalmed with garlic.

    The citizens of uh... Britain need not fear to leave the comforts of their nightclubs and their dingy pubs at night no more.

    But isn’t the Nazi pug still on the loose?

  20. @Randal

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
     
    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s - 1980s, when it was smeared as "racist". It probably also reflects the rise of Welsh and Scottish separatism (neither movement deserves the term nationalist, both being basically leftist movements that want to see their own putative countries absorbed into the EU and swamped by mass immigration out of fear of being "racist").

    Also the cross of St George is the English football fans' symbol.

    Well, as I’ve written before my father’s English, and he makes a point of saying that he’s English, not British, because Englishness is an ethnic identity based on descent. I suppose it’s similar for at least some of those why fly the St George’s flag. Its popularity must at least to some extent be a result of Britishness having become largely meaningless.

    • Replies: @Randal
    British was also seen as an ethnic identity, based on descent, in the early C20th and before. But clearly it had been manufactured as a political identity relatively recently, in the C18th, and so there was always a tendency for some to turn away from its ethnic identity aspects as a result. English versus British was always a complicated issue, after the Act of Uni0n.
    , @Ali Choudhury
    Plenty of non-whites wave around St George flags and wear flag-based shirts when it comes to sporting events like football where an English rather than a British team participates. It is seen as another national symbol.
  21. @DFH

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”
     
    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt 'Britishness' into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn't happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as 'English' the other day)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaMvsDmeO5g

    That’s certainly how I remember the use of the Union Jack becoming deeply unfashionable in the late C20th, and overtaken in most public displays by the Cross of St George, even amongst nationalists looking to distinguish themselves from the older NF/BM/BNP groups.

    the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as ‘English’ the other day)

    This is clearly also an issue, and I can recall myself trying to use the distinction between British and English for that purpose (distinguishing between passport holders and their offspring (British), and descendants of the longstanding indigenous inhabitants of the islands (English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish)) in the past. Of course, a large part of the “English” sports teams are also not really English in that sense.

    Doesn’t surprise me at all that the likes of Javid are trying to co-opt Englishness as well.

    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    It seems to be a thing. Gary Younge, a UK based black race communist, famously claimed to be "english" during a conversation with Richard Spencer.
  22. @German_reader
    Well, as I've written before my father's English, and he makes a point of saying that he's English, not British, because Englishness is an ethnic identity based on descent. I suppose it's similar for at least some of those why fly the St George's flag. Its popularity must at least to some extent be a result of Britishness having become largely meaningless.

    British was also seen as an ethnic identity, based on descent, in the early C20th and before. But clearly it had been manufactured as a political identity relatively recently, in the C18th, and so there was always a tendency for some to turn away from its ethnic identity aspects as a result. English versus British was always a complicated issue, after the Act of Uni0n.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    British was also seen as an ethnic identity
     
    Maybe, implicitly it certainly had strong ethnic and religious characteristics, though its association with the imperial project was probably always a weakness. But nowadays it's completely meaningless...basically limited to talking about the weather and nebulous "British values" like fair play or "tolerance" (which of course in reality aren't shared by many of the "new Britons" with roots in places like Somalia or Pakistan). A bad joke really. The same is of course true of most of the civic identities in the Western world today.
  23. @songbird
    Interesting hypothetical - what would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

    Well, if it hypothetically happened it would speak very highly of the courage of the British. A sizeable reason why the crowds are small and consist heavily of proles is that any public association with the rightists is “toxic” and essentially ends your life(look at the result of Kingdom Come: Deliverance’s developer, who has to defend himself nearly daily, and he lives in a “based” country). Even some of his colleagues engage in some form of ritual deprecation of him, always making sure they distance themselves from him, so they might hope to be able to be employable in the industry.

    In Poland, one can still hope to have a normal life and job after participating in such a rally. Can you imagine working at say, a high level corporate manager at a clothing store such as H&M? Imagine getting photographed and then someone brings it up to your boss at the next meeting. You’ll probably be fired immediately and, not only that, rapidly approach unemployability. If for some reason you seek legal recourse, most lawyers would probably not represent you; while the company that has fired you will likely use it for free publicity.

    Essentially any serious commitment to free speech is already over in most of the West as we know it. There’s no defense against economic terrorism, and successful rightists are more likely than not to have dependent families, making them particularly vulnerable.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @songbird
    That is a good point about ostracism. It has become much easier in a number of ways. The internet - touted as a free speech tool. The proliferation of cameras. In England, some streets are completely covered arguably because of how some imported populations are especially crime-prone. Meanwhile cameras on phones which were touted as promoting citizen journalism and through it free speech, were also really tools against it.

    Colleges and universities which radicalize the impressionable, have also strongly influenced the political landscape through the rise of credentialism. If you spend a lot of time and resources to get a degree in a narrow field, that kind of really handicaps how much you can say.
    , @AaronB
    This is because the alt-right completely neglects the financial basis of any revolution. They seem to think normal non heroic people will risk their lives for a slogan.

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element - if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.

    It's all very well for Vox Day to thunder denunciations from his blog, and for Steve Sailer to smirkingly point out black deficiencies on a daily basis, but the complete absence of genuine communal organization with a firm financial basis, and real communal assistance, means the movement is not serious.

    Say what you will about Jews, they understand the importance of money. I believe you Asians are also quietly amassing wealth in America - I am willing to bet some day this will become the basis for political action.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    Such practical organization would mark them as a serious movement - but right now it is merely ideological, with no capacity for practical organization. Because practical organization requires genuine communal effort, and genuine cooperation - something currently beyond the ability of whites.
  24. ‘… Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny…’

    Come on. It’s always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    Just like its easier to make comments that accord with other commenters than against them.

    • Agree: Simon in London
    • Replies: @neutral

    Come on. It’s always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.
     
    How brave, waving that Israeli flag. Such a rebellious act to proclaim oneself a loyal goy to zionism...
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Just like its always easier to always troll in support of the current zeitgeist.
    , @szopen
    Except Polish INdependence marches were big before. The videos of police beating the passer-bys, antifa attacking historical reenactors etc were one of many factors which enabled the defeat of the previous government.

    And nowadays the march of independence is not pro-government. It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.
  25. Nationalist rallies won’t succeed under the wimpy slogan of freedom of speech. Nationalist rallies must be about kicking ass and not about begging for some rights. This was not a nationalist rally.

    • Replies: @ussr andy

    kicking ass
     
    "(...)In a world dominated by progressives, the fascist gate to power is closed, locked, welded shut, filled with a thousand tons of concrete, and surrounded by starving cave bears. Today’s Apparat has entire departments who do nothing but guard this door, which no one but a few pathetic dorks will even think of approaching. And this is even assuming that a regime which achieved power through fascist techniques would be superior in any way, shape, or form to the Cathedral, a proposition I consider extraordinarily dubious. Give it up, Nazis. Game over. You lose. Frankly, even the real Nazis were no prize, and few of them would regard their modern successors with anything but contempt. There is a reason for this.(...)"
    --Moldbug
    , @dfordoom

    Nationalist rallies won’t succeed under the wimpy slogan of freedom of speech. Nationalist rallies must be about kicking ass and not about begging for some rights. This was not a nationalist rally.

     

    Agreed.

    Freedom of speech is for losers who have no power and no prospects of getting power.

    The only time freedom of speech ever worked was for the cultural left in the mid-20th century when they were in the process of gaining power. But they succeeded in gaining power solely because they faced no actual opposition. Power was handed over to them.
  26. @Randal
    British was also seen as an ethnic identity, based on descent, in the early C20th and before. But clearly it had been manufactured as a political identity relatively recently, in the C18th, and so there was always a tendency for some to turn away from its ethnic identity aspects as a result. English versus British was always a complicated issue, after the Act of Uni0n.

    British was also seen as an ethnic identity

    Maybe, implicitly it certainly had strong ethnic and religious characteristics, though its association with the imperial project was probably always a weakness. But nowadays it’s completely meaningless…basically limited to talking about the weather and nebulous “British values” like fair play or “tolerance” (which of course in reality aren’t shared by many of the “new Britons” with roots in places like Somalia or Pakistan). A bad joke really. The same is of course true of most of the civic identities in the Western world today.

  27. @The Big Red Scary
    What about Count Dankula?

    What about Count Dankula?

    I get the impression he’s pretty much a lefty, isn’t he? Which is why establishment leftists (comedians etc) feel safe in publicly backing his freedom of speech.

    Contrast with the treatment of figures who genuinely threaten the establishment, such as Alison Chabloz and Jez Turner, both charged with speech crimes as a direct result of jewish lobby influence (the latter convicted, the former awaiting a verdict):

    Free expression or permitted opinion: that is the choice – the conviction of Jez Turner

  28. @anony-mouse
    '... Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny...'

    Come on. It's always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    Just like its easier to make comments that accord with other commenters than against them.

    Come on. It’s always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    How brave, waving that Israeli flag. Such a rebellious act to proclaim oneself a loyal goy to zionism…

  29. @anony-mouse
    '... Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny...'

    Come on. It's always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    Just like its easier to make comments that accord with other commenters than against them.

    Just like its always easier to always troll in support of the current zeitgeist.

    • Replies: @anony-mouse
    If it's so easy how come everyone here isn't doing it?
  30. The last time Brits engaged in nationalism we conquered half the planet. Most people think we should be cautious about starting down that path.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    We did very little conquering. Mostly we bought out the local chiefs and made them aristocrats of he Empire.
    , @Silva
    ... that wasn't nationalism, and in at least 2 ways resulted ... in the current miserable situation.
  31. @Anatoly Karlin
    This was still at Speaker's Corner, I assume they weren't actually associated with the free speech march.

    Neoreactionary passivism seems increasingly appealing.

  32. @Daniel Chieh
    Well, if it hypothetically happened it would speak very highly of the courage of the British. A sizeable reason why the crowds are small and consist heavily of proles is that any public association with the rightists is "toxic" and essentially ends your life(look at the result of Kingdom Come: Deliverance's developer, who has to defend himself nearly daily, and he lives in a "based" country). Even some of his colleagues engage in some form of ritual deprecation of him, always making sure they distance themselves from him, so they might hope to be able to be employable in the industry.

    In Poland, one can still hope to have a normal life and job after participating in such a rally. Can you imagine working at say, a high level corporate manager at a clothing store such as H&M? Imagine getting photographed and then someone brings it up to your boss at the next meeting. You'll probably be fired immediately and, not only that, rapidly approach unemployability. If for some reason you seek legal recourse, most lawyers would probably not represent you; while the company that has fired you will likely use it for free publicity.

    Essentially any serious commitment to free speech is already over in most of the West as we know it. There's no defense against economic terrorism, and successful rightists are more likely than not to have dependent families, making them particularly vulnerable.

    That is a good point about ostracism. It has become much easier in a number of ways. The internet – touted as a free speech tool. The proliferation of cameras. In England, some streets are completely covered arguably because of how some imported populations are especially crime-prone. Meanwhile cameras on phones which were touted as promoting citizen journalism and through it free speech, were also really tools against it.

    Colleges and universities which radicalize the impressionable, have also strongly influenced the political landscape through the rise of credentialism. If you spend a lot of time and resources to get a degree in a narrow field, that kind of really handicaps how much you can say.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Essentially the Cathedral has its own ecosystem of radicalization complete with means of gaining social capital(callout culture, actual political references, and "grassroot" organizations that provide housing to antifa) as well as financial capita(insectionality parasites great and small, and billionaire virtue signalers).

    At this moment, it seems like one can only really hope that its innate dysfunctions ultimately lead to its collapse at some point. It probably will, but how much beauty will it destroy before it does so? Cancer is damn stubborn. Cancer usually kills its host even as it dies.

  33. @Daniel Chieh
    Well, if it hypothetically happened it would speak very highly of the courage of the British. A sizeable reason why the crowds are small and consist heavily of proles is that any public association with the rightists is "toxic" and essentially ends your life(look at the result of Kingdom Come: Deliverance's developer, who has to defend himself nearly daily, and he lives in a "based" country). Even some of his colleagues engage in some form of ritual deprecation of him, always making sure they distance themselves from him, so they might hope to be able to be employable in the industry.

    In Poland, one can still hope to have a normal life and job after participating in such a rally. Can you imagine working at say, a high level corporate manager at a clothing store such as H&M? Imagine getting photographed and then someone brings it up to your boss at the next meeting. You'll probably be fired immediately and, not only that, rapidly approach unemployability. If for some reason you seek legal recourse, most lawyers would probably not represent you; while the company that has fired you will likely use it for free publicity.

    Essentially any serious commitment to free speech is already over in most of the West as we know it. There's no defense against economic terrorism, and successful rightists are more likely than not to have dependent families, making them particularly vulnerable.

    This is because the alt-right completely neglects the financial basis of any revolution. They seem to think normal non heroic people will risk their lives for a slogan.

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element – if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.

    It’s all very well for Vox Day to thunder denunciations from his blog, and for Steve Sailer to smirkingly point out black deficiencies on a daily basis, but the complete absence of genuine communal organization with a firm financial basis, and real communal assistance, means the movement is not serious.

    Say what you will about Jews, they understand the importance of money. I believe you Asians are also quietly amassing wealth in America – I am willing to bet some day this will become the basis for political action.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    Such practical organization would mark them as a serious movement – but right now it is merely ideological, with no capacity for practical organization. Because practical organization requires genuine communal effort, and genuine cooperation – something currently beyond the ability of whites.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.
     
    But its clearly more important to expend energy on battles between Vox Day and Jordan Peterson, or Paul Nehlen and Ricky Vaughn, or Michael Cernovich and Richard Spencer, or...

    As Mr. Karlin has talked about before, despite much talking, the nationalists are really low-trust(and for good reason, as the constant internecine infighting shows). This lack of social capital is brutal beyond even fiscal lack.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    This is why I preach financial independence to all dissidents as a first principle. And it's actually not that hard to accomplish as shown by Mr. Money Mustache.

    And really, even normies. Who the hell wants to live a life where you're terrified of getting fired or can't afford to replace the alternator on your truck?
    , @Miro23

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element – if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.
     
    And Hezbollah is more than community/financial - it's dealing with the infinite. It's OK to die for it, it's international, and it has a clear aim in Lebanon: "The expulsion of the Americans, the French and their allies definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity on our land".

    In other words , they have a degree of commitment that's difficult to imagine in the West.
  34. Between stuff like this and everything I’ve seen from the sidelines of the alt-right for years it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that Anglophones just can’t into this stuff at all. Maybe you should start making an effort to forget English to help Russian nationalism’s chances.

  35. @Daniel Chieh
    Just like its always easier to always troll in support of the current zeitgeist.

    If it’s so easy how come everyone here isn’t doing it?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    They learned from the Joker: if you're good at anything, get CTR to pay you for it.

    You're just not very good.
  36. @AaronB
    This is because the alt-right completely neglects the financial basis of any revolution. They seem to think normal non heroic people will risk their lives for a slogan.

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element - if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.

    It's all very well for Vox Day to thunder denunciations from his blog, and for Steve Sailer to smirkingly point out black deficiencies on a daily basis, but the complete absence of genuine communal organization with a firm financial basis, and real communal assistance, means the movement is not serious.

    Say what you will about Jews, they understand the importance of money. I believe you Asians are also quietly amassing wealth in America - I am willing to bet some day this will become the basis for political action.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    Such practical organization would mark them as a serious movement - but right now it is merely ideological, with no capacity for practical organization. Because practical organization requires genuine communal effort, and genuine cooperation - something currently beyond the ability of whites.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    But its clearly more important to expend energy on battles between Vox Day and Jordan Peterson, or Paul Nehlen and Ricky Vaughn, or Michael Cernovich and Richard Spencer, or…

    As Mr. Karlin has talked about before, despite much talking, the nationalists are really low-trust(and for good reason, as the constant internecine infighting shows). This lack of social capital is brutal beyond even fiscal lack.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @iffen
    Clearly articulated practical and pragmatic goals might help.
  37. @anony-mouse
    If it's so easy how come everyone here isn't doing it?

    They learned from the Joker: if you’re good at anything, get CTR to pay you for it.

    You’re just not very good.

  38. I don’t think this is a ‘nationalism’ march. Not only no ‘British for British’ sign, but no kind of nationalist signs or organizations are visible.

    This looks like a ‘free speech’, or ‘resistance against Islam’ march. Therefore, the celebration of sexual minorities, the black people, the Israel flag.

    The political movement is potentially a rational one, in a context where these people are happy with modern Western lifestyles (there is a very high standard of living in the UK), but where they are not happy with what they forecast of a future, in which they believe radical Islam will become a powerful demographic inside the UK (because of immigration).

  39. @songbird
    That is a good point about ostracism. It has become much easier in a number of ways. The internet - touted as a free speech tool. The proliferation of cameras. In England, some streets are completely covered arguably because of how some imported populations are especially crime-prone. Meanwhile cameras on phones which were touted as promoting citizen journalism and through it free speech, were also really tools against it.

    Colleges and universities which radicalize the impressionable, have also strongly influenced the political landscape through the rise of credentialism. If you spend a lot of time and resources to get a degree in a narrow field, that kind of really handicaps how much you can say.

    Essentially the Cathedral has its own ecosystem of radicalization complete with means of gaining social capital(callout culture, actual political references, and “grassroot” organizations that provide housing to antifa) as well as financial capita(insectionality parasites great and small, and billionaire virtue signalers).

    At this moment, it seems like one can only really hope that its innate dysfunctions ultimately lead to its collapse at some point. It probably will, but how much beauty will it destroy before it does so? Cancer is damn stubborn. Cancer usually kills its host even as it dies.

  40. @German_reader
    Well, as I've written before my father's English, and he makes a point of saying that he's English, not British, because Englishness is an ethnic identity based on descent. I suppose it's similar for at least some of those why fly the St George's flag. Its popularity must at least to some extent be a result of Britishness having become largely meaningless.

    Plenty of non-whites wave around St George flags and wear flag-based shirts when it comes to sporting events like football where an English rather than a British team participates. It is seen as another national symbol.

  41. @DFH

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”
     
    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt 'Britishness' into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn't happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as 'English' the other day)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaMvsDmeO5g

    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness

    Right. When Blair got elected in 1997 the Union flag made a bit of a comeback of sorts because it now represented Cool Britannia rather than the stodgy old Rule Britannia. At the time I recall some pop stars, usually identified with the left, suddenly being proud to be British. Blacks born in England are now more likely to describe themselves as ‘British’ full stop without reference to their parents’ background, but rarely ever as ‘English’. I wonder if Sikhs in Scotland and blacks in Wales also call themselves ‘British’, or does the multiculti/prog nationalist image of those places make them more willing to embrace the local identity.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    The Labour party which has perpetual power in Wales goes out of its way to suggest that Welsh nationhood is Civic. So anyone is Welsh. Vaughan Gething the front runner for the FM's job is a bilingual Welsh speaking black man and one of the cleverest people in the Assembly.
  42. Never heard of it and I have no interest in faux British nationalism that is obviously Zionist backed Muslim bashing. The cast of speakers tells you what this is about.

  43. Further to the above referenced conviction yesterday of Jez Turner for speechcrime in England, seemingly for saying things that are clearly legitimate political opinions but are unwelcome to jewish lobbyists, and which would not appear remotely out of place on Unz.com, here’s a piece published here about the case a few months back:

    Free Speech, Jewish Activism, and the Trial of Jeremy Bedford-Turner

  44. @Ali Choudhury
    In a,country where the brother of the future king is the soon-to-be husband of a woke black woman, white nationalism will not get much Establishment support.

    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    • Replies: @Randal
    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I've always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what's the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?
    , @for-the-record
    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    Yes. I was surprised to discover that they chose to have their wedding coincide with my long-planned visit to London. Not sure I will have time to participate in the festivities, though.
    , @Miro23

    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.
     
    Interesting comments in the Daily Mail (thousands of them). First of all they don't like Meghan Markle (based on her past history), but equally they don't have anything much against the American pastor, the African choir or the ululating welcome - it's just that it's totally out of place at a British Royal wedding.

    The public message is that Africans have to adopt British culture if they want to be British - otherwise stay in Africa. Without the African pastor, African choir and ululation everything would have gone much better.

    There's also a growing feeling that Leftist-Progressivism could mean the end of Royalty after Elizabeth II.
  45. AK, I think you meant to say: The Absurd State of British Nationalism.

  46. @LondonBob
    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I’ve always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what’s the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    • Replies: @songbird
    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits. High IQ. Large amygdalae and all the other brain structures that go with conservatism. Good looks and a good voice. Monogamy. Good health.

    Otherwise a monarchy is just a dice roll and the dice are loaded for globalization.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

     

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?
    , @Mitleser

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?
     
    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.
  47. @anony-mouse
    '... Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny...'

    Come on. It's always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    Just like its easier to make comments that accord with other commenters than against them.

    Except Polish INdependence marches were big before. The videos of police beating the passer-bys, antifa attacking historical reenactors etc were one of many factors which enabled the defeat of the previous government.

    And nowadays the march of independence is not pro-government. It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective

    It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.
     
    This is correct, and the question remains for how long. The 100th anniversary of Poland's (re)independence is coming up later this year and the march will be bigger than even last year's provided no state interference. Given the current heat with the EU, and the conflict with Israel(as well as their willing puppet, the Trump administration), I expect that there will likely be some form of crackdown this year.

    In some ways that would be bad, in some ways good. PiS was always just a temporary springboard for me, at any rate. Civic nationalism, even one which is better than the vast majority of competing offers in the West, is ultimately ideologically limited to the point of being handicapped or crippled. There's too much blind PiS support among right-wingers, even those who should know better, because the economy is doing well and they mostly have held the lines vis-a-vis the EU and the "refugee" question. It makes it easier to ignore the long-term flaws of PiS' ideological underpinning. A crackdown would be problematic in the short term but probably good in the long term, it would wake up a lot of people who are daydreaming now.

  48. @utu
    Nationalist rallies won't succeed under the wimpy slogan of freedom of speech. Nationalist rallies must be about kicking ass and not about begging for some rights. This was not a nationalist rally.

    kicking ass

    “(…)In a world dominated by progressives, the fascist gate to power is closed, locked, welded shut, filled with a thousand tons of concrete, and surrounded by starving cave bears. Today’s Apparat has entire departments who do nothing but guard this door, which no one but a few pathetic dorks will even think of approaching. And this is even assuming that a regime which achieved power through fascist techniques would be superior in any way, shape, or form to the Cathedral, a proposition I consider extraordinarily dubious. Give it up, Nazis. Game over. You lose. Frankly, even the real Nazis were no prize, and few of them would regard their modern successors with anything but contempt. There is a reason for this.(…)”
    –Moldbug

    • Replies: @DFH
    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument
  49. @Randal
    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I've always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what's the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits. High IQ. Large amygdalae and all the other brain structures that go with conservatism. Good looks and a good voice. Monogamy. Good health.

    Otherwise a monarchy is just a dice roll and the dice are loaded for globalization.

    • Replies: @Randal

    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits.
     
    Rationality and monarchy don't sit easily together, even in the eugenicist form you propose.

    It was rationalised for a long time based upon Christian premises, but those are long gone from the post-Christian societies of the US sphere.
  50. @Randal
    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I've always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what's the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    • Replies: @DFH
    It was so politically irrelevant even by 1800 that George IV paid a pension to the last Jacobite pretender Henry IX and had Canova put up a monument to them in the Vatican

    The Stuarts were a rather pointless and incompetent dynasty anyway, Britain was much better off with the Hanoverians

    , @Randal

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?
     
    That's taking traditionalism too far even for me, especially as I'm not Catholic.....
    , @Simon in London
    These days it's called Moggmentum.

    https://www.jacobreesmogg.com/about

  51. democracy means demonstrating for something that is already official policy, silly!

    [MORE]

  52. This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

     

    Except the problem is mainly religious and ideological. (All this is irrelevant to immigration debate, but simply about saying the truth of the regions where there is a conflict with radical interpretations of Islam).

    The conflict and terrorism problem in regions like the Middle East, Caucasus, South East Asia or Africa, is usually a radical interpretation of Islam, rather than something immutable in the people themselves.

    If you want to be accurate to reality, this is the problem. Muslim nations like Kazakhstan* and Azerbaijan became nice countries, because of the high level of secularization in the Soviet times. Unfortunately, some of these trends may be a little reversed since the 1990s.

    When Muslims are secularized, then they become a modern and developed people. As with the removal of any extreme forms of religion or ideology. The issue is not so much the people (who may be a little more or less suitable for life in civilized countries), but the indoctrination into extremism.

    That doesn't say a country like America, should be accepting immigration. Probably they should not accept any immigrants at all - why would a successful and powerful country want to change the demographic composition that made her successful and powerful?

    But certainly, the problem in many parts of the world, is the religion (under the certain extreme interpretations), rather than the underlying people, and when Muslim countries can become moderate and secularized, they can be as nice as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan.

    -





    * You can have a more peaceful Victory Day than in Kiev, in the capital city of a 70% Sunni Muslim country:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxs0QHxkoho
    , @Randal

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.
     
    More importantly, you're playing Israel's game.

    To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.
     
    The common reasoning for those who do so is that it was one of the few ways you could stand against mass immigration without being instantly dismissed as a "racist".

    The left has tried to conflate the two terms, and introduced another similar smear term "islamophobe" to try to close the loophole they'd left for liberty, but with relatively limited success compared to the pretty much complete triumph they had creating and imposing the "racism" taboo.
  53. To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.

    • Agree: for-the-record
  54. @Randal
    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I've always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what's the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.

    • Replies: @Randal

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.
     
    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible.....
  55. @Ali Choudhury
    In a,country where the brother of the future king is the soon-to-be husband of a woke black woman, white nationalism will not get much Establishment support.

    Her ancestry might be 1/3 negroid, if that. Her mother is a recognizable California type – steeped in New Age therapy culture. The father is a retired technician employed for decades in television production – and, by all appearances, emotionally fragile. They’re long divorced. MM’ss already had a chunk taken out of her by the public animadversions of obnoxious siblings. There’s no dignity in the Markle family.

    Meghan Markle herself is Hollywood – intensely interested in her personal appearance and in what she eats. Black American culture (the agreeable parts and the disagreeable parts) is not manifest in Meghan Markle. She’s divorced and people with her personal history you don’t expect to have aptitude for domestic life – too many taboos breached, too self-centered, too fixated on what pleases right now, too unreflective.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    She seems a deeply flawed person, as is Harry in some ways.
    , @songbird
    Markle makes Wallis Simpson seem a bit less objectionable.
  56. @ussr andy

    kicking ass
     
    "(...)In a world dominated by progressives, the fascist gate to power is closed, locked, welded shut, filled with a thousand tons of concrete, and surrounded by starving cave bears. Today’s Apparat has entire departments who do nothing but guard this door, which no one but a few pathetic dorks will even think of approaching. And this is even assuming that a regime which achieved power through fascist techniques would be superior in any way, shape, or form to the Cathedral, a proposition I consider extraordinarily dubious. Give it up, Nazis. Game over. You lose. Frankly, even the real Nazis were no prize, and few of them would regard their modern successors with anything but contempt. There is a reason for this.(...)"
    --Moldbug

    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

    • Agree: Svigor
    • Replies: @ussr andy

    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

     

    it sorta does in context. Highly recommended.
    Or am I the Jew?
  57. @Daniel Chieh

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

     

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    It was so politically irrelevant even by 1800 that George IV paid a pension to the last Jacobite pretender Henry IX and had Canova put up a monument to them in the Vatican

    The Stuarts were a rather pointless and incompetent dynasty anyway, Britain was much better off with the Hanoverians

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The Stuarts were a rather pointless and incompetent dynasty anyway
     
    It was all downhill from the time of Henry Tudor's usurpation. The Tudors really were catastrophically awful.

    We need to find a viable Plantaganet pretender.
  58. @Art Deco
    Her ancestry might be 1/3 negroid, if that. Her mother is a recognizable California type - steeped in New Age therapy culture. The father is a retired technician employed for decades in television production - and, by all appearances, emotionally fragile. They're long divorced. MM'ss already had a chunk taken out of her by the public animadversions of obnoxious siblings. There's no dignity in the Markle family.

    Meghan Markle herself is Hollywood - intensely interested in her personal appearance and in what she eats. Black American culture (the agreeable parts and the disagreeable parts) is not manifest in Meghan Markle. She's divorced and people with her personal history you don't expect to have aptitude for domestic life - too many taboos breached, too self-centered, too fixated on what pleases right now, too unreflective.

    She seems a deeply flawed person, as is Harry in some ways.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I'm not sure what counts as a 'deep flaw' and merely a flaw. His problem in this circumstance is that he's thinking with his peter.
  59. @Art Deco
    Her ancestry might be 1/3 negroid, if that. Her mother is a recognizable California type - steeped in New Age therapy culture. The father is a retired technician employed for decades in television production - and, by all appearances, emotionally fragile. They're long divorced. MM'ss already had a chunk taken out of her by the public animadversions of obnoxious siblings. There's no dignity in the Markle family.

    Meghan Markle herself is Hollywood - intensely interested in her personal appearance and in what she eats. Black American culture (the agreeable parts and the disagreeable parts) is not manifest in Meghan Markle. She's divorced and people with her personal history you don't expect to have aptitude for domestic life - too many taboos breached, too self-centered, too fixated on what pleases right now, too unreflective.

    Markle makes Wallis Simpson seem a bit less objectionable.

  60. @songbird
    Interesting hypothetical - what would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

    What would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

    The elites did attack them in Poland, and successfully repressed them for a number of years. The nationalist march started under the previous neoliberal regime. How did we change the status quo? We threw them out. There are no guarantees that PiS will not transmogrify in the same direction given time. But if they do, we’ll throw them out again, this time to more radical alternatives, but that will be the task for the next generation.

    75% of young poles prefer right-wing parties. It is 50% (PiS+Kukiz’15) for the general public. It’s notable that 20%(!) of young Polish women support Korwin-Mikke’s libertarian party, and given his quotes on feminism, Poland is probably your best bet if you want a libertarian-leaning, feminist-hating waifu.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Those are remarkable trends. I wonder what the dynamic that explains them is. Could it be a lot of first hand accounts of Western Europe? I can't find any current figures, but my perception is that there is a lot of higher education in Poland - a high rate among youth. Normally, colleges are blamed for leftist indoctrination. Perhaps, the majors are different...
  61. Don’t swallow the Black Pill!

    Europe suffers under the Baby Boomers (Hilllary & Co.) and their rear guard – Gen X (Obama & Co.).

    European Nationalism will come with full force when the Boomers die off and GenY/Millenials take control of society.

    The Millenials grew up in Essen with Turkish guest-workers’ educationable grand-kids, grew up in Manchester with Pakistani textile-mill-workers’ grooming cousins and had to endure the first wave of Somali refuggees’ children in Malmo.

    They still enjoyed a numerical superiority at school and had to nearly no competition for university-slots & good jobs and have friends among the better part of migrants’ children.

    They will be backed by Gen Z, who had to endure the full-force of Gen X’s insanity and in many part are already fighting for a chance at higher education & job-market.

    Furthermore the Leftists overplayed their You’re-racist-card, while the many Muslim/Migrant communities think they can already challenge the Euro natives, just because they are clustered in the cities and foreign leader like Erdogan are egging them on.

    If the social conflict gets hot, remember that Euros have a safe haven -> Eastern Europe. This is the place where they will be outfitted and can form & train in peace and replenish losses. I ‘ll predict volunteer-units from the Confucian countries, even if their countries stay neutral.

    Furthermore the Spec-Ops/heavy-gear units in many European armies and SWAT-units in police-forces are still 95% European with very national-conservative migrant as comrades. The tip of the spear.

    Patience my friends. Patience. Train & prepare. Party will start in the mid 2020.

    The key is to maintain control of the Southern borders and strenghten the Med, as too prevent reinforcement from MENA.

    BTW for your American readers: In Germany there are over 5000 rifle-clubs with on average 40 members – mostly based in small towns and rural areas. Only ignorant American think us Euros as unarmed.

    Cheers

  62. @Daniel Chieh
    Why in Kek's name were the vegans there?

    Hitler was a vegan. The ariosophy thing includes the whole hippy package. Too intellectual for the EDL though.

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Hitler was a vegan.
     
    On the contrary, he was a vegetarian. He didn't have any silly aversion to dairy, eggs, honey, etc.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    A strange and weird aspect of the Volkisch movement.

    Maybe things were different then, but I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.
  63. @Greasy William
    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don't give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left's game.

    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    Except the problem is mainly religious and ideological. (All this is irrelevant to immigration debate, but simply about saying the truth of the regions where there is a conflict with radical interpretations of Islam).

    The conflict and terrorism problem in regions like the Middle East, Caucasus, South East Asia or Africa, is usually a radical interpretation of Islam, rather than something immutable in the people themselves.

    If you want to be accurate to reality, this is the problem. Muslim nations like Kazakhstan* and Azerbaijan became nice countries, because of the high level of secularization in the Soviet times. Unfortunately, some of these trends may be a little reversed since the 1990s.

    When Muslims are secularized, then they become a modern and developed people. As with the removal of any extreme forms of religion or ideology. The issue is not so much the people (who may be a little more or less suitable for life in civilized countries), but the indoctrination into extremism.

    That doesn’t say a country like America, should be accepting immigration. Probably they should not accept any immigrants at all – why would a successful and powerful country want to change the demographic composition that made her successful and powerful?

    But certainly, the problem in many parts of the world, is the religion (under the certain extreme interpretations), rather than the underlying people, and when Muslim countries can become moderate and secularized, they can be as nice as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan.

    * You can have a more peaceful Victory Day than in Kiev, in the capital city of a 70% Sunni Muslim country:

    • Agree: Kevin O'Keeffe
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Yes, Muslims, give up your religion. Uncle Dmitry is telling you - you will be nice and pleasant countries.

    Join us, Muslims, jooooin uuuuus, don't you want to be just like us? We have nice pleasant things like coffee, and sneakers...don't you like sneakers? And you won't have to wake up in the morning to deal with crying babies...you'll be freed from the messy necessity of having babies at all..

    Uncle Dmitry is here to give you a helping hand...don't you want to live nice, pleasant lives? Nice, pleasant lives....nice, pleasant lives...niiiiice pleeeeasant lives....

    Joooin uuuus, Muslims....
  64. @German_reader
    Interesting, if depressing post, thanks. Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.

    Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.

    Agree that Britain is pretty much gone. Many of the nationalities in the EU face growing problems in sustaining a sense of nationhood in the face of massive immigration — Britain, Sweden, France, Belgium. However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    Please welcome Britain as the first member of the Globalist Commonwealth of Something … the world’s first homogeneous something dedicated to the celebration of LGTBxyz lifestyles available only to vegans and Wiccans. I know, this seems inconsistent with BREXIT. Go figure!

    We just returned from a vacation in Ireland. Fantastic people; excellent food. The take among some of the Irish we talked to is that Britain is leaving the EU to protect its welfare system from Africans, Eastern Europeans, and Caribbean Blacks who are stealing them blind. The Irish are closer to the scene; perhaps they have a better take on what is really going on.

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state. The truth comes out! All of the platitudes about globalism and human rights aside, the Swedes are primarily concerned about who finances their pensions and takes care of them in their old age.

    Seems that this was the same argument for opening the US borders to millions of Hispanics … to pump and sustain what’s left of the Social Security System.

    I detect a global trend:

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
    4. Women no longer have the time or interest to bear children (who would take care of them?).
    5. The demographic supporting the welfare state implodes as the population ages and dies.
    6. Eureka! Open the borders to millions (or is it billions?) of immigrants who will hopefully work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state.

    What! The new immigrants don’t work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state? Instead, they also milk the welfare system to get their fair share until nothing is left. Oh, gracious! Sounds like a global Ponzi scheme to me.

    Nationalism aside, I guess we need a completely new model for the organization and functioning of the state in a post-industrial world.

    • Replies: @DFH

    However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.
     
    I don't know where yanks get this idea from. Britain has been if anything very marginally less pozzed than other Northwest European countries according to polling about attitudes to immigration (not that that's saying very much).
    , @Toronto Russian

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
     
    You've got history backwards. Poverty brought women into the workforce way before welfare existed, and obviously not everyone had a man who could support them. Here's a blog about Victorian laundresses:

    Since washing and ironing were such exhausting exercise, every housewife dreamed of just taking dirty clothes to the laundry. Those who became laundresses were elderly women, widows or housewives who needed additional income. Husbands of the latter were often seasonal workers with unstable income, disabled people or alcoholics, so the wife had to take the provider function upon herself.
    https://b-a-n-s-h-e-e.livejournal.com/243027.html
     
    We all may have read (if Russian, were forced to at school) how Dostoyevsky's Sonya Marmeladova became a seamstress and then a prostitute because her alcoholic father couldn't provide. And here's a story about proto-welfare introduced in a factory to alleviate existing conditions of female workers, from Vikenty Veresaev's Notes of a Doctor.

    In the 1820s, according to Villermé's research, half of the children of Mühlhausen's women weavers died before the age of fifteen months. Villermé convinced factory owner Dolfus to let his workers stay home after childbirth for six weeks with their wages kept; this alone was enough to cut infant mortality in half, at once, without any help of medicine.
     
    What were the fathers of those babies doing, is unknown. I wonder what the weavers would say to Americans who think paid maternity leave is an evil commie thing... some colorful German swearing probably.
    , @Pericles

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state.

     

    Did you just arrive here from the 1990s?
  65. @jim jones
    The last time Brits engaged in nationalism we conquered half the planet. Most people think we should be cautious about starting down that path.

    We did very little conquering. Mostly we bought out the local chiefs and made them aristocrats of he Empire.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    British rule in India started with the battle of Plassey and was expanded in a series of wars against other powers (Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc.) over 40-50 years. Even if cooptation of local rulers was very important, to some extent it was indeed a military conquest.
    Not that this should matter today or be something to be ashamed of.
  66. Anne Marie Waters

    The gay lady with no kids?

    “what about all the gay Muslims?”

    LOL!

    drag queen to sing up the stage to prove that New Labour are the real transphobes

    LOOOOL!

    Poz-itively awesome!

    Other Football Lads…

    Time for a new national movement guys – seriously! Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:

    This movement has to have leaders that embody the kind of people that one can look up to; respectable, articulate, sans-tattoos and heterosexual would be a good starting point. Also, dress in gender-normal clothes.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:
     
    Oh shut the fuck up, your Islamic triumphalism is getting annoying. Muslims in the UK are pampered and protected by the establishment, they are in fact a privileged group, whereas nationalist activists have to face the prospect of having their lives destroyed by the full force of the state. That's the difference, not any supposed moral superiority on the part of your coreligionists who by and large are nothing but parasites in Britain and ought to be chased out.
  67. DFH says:
    @TheJester

    Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.
     
    Agree that Britain is pretty much gone. Many of the nationalities in the EU face growing problems in sustaining a sense of nationhood in the face of massive immigration -- Britain, Sweden, France, Belgium. However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    Please welcome Britain as the first member of the Globalist Commonwealth of Something ... the world's first homogeneous something dedicated to the celebration of LGTBxyz lifestyles available only to vegans and Wiccans. I know, this seems inconsistent with BREXIT. Go figure!

    We just returned from a vacation in Ireland. Fantastic people; excellent food. The take among some of the Irish we talked to is that Britain is leaving the EU to protect its welfare system from Africans, Eastern Europeans, and Caribbean Blacks who are stealing them blind. The Irish are closer to the scene; perhaps they have a better take on what is really going on.

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state. The truth comes out! All of the platitudes about globalism and human rights aside, the Swedes are primarily concerned about who finances their pensions and takes care of them in their old age.

    Seems that this was the same argument for opening the US borders to millions of Hispanics ... to pump and sustain what's left of the Social Security System.

    I detect a global trend:

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
    4. Women no longer have the time or interest to bear children (who would take care of them?).
    5. The demographic supporting the welfare state implodes as the population ages and dies.
    6. Eureka! Open the borders to millions (or is it billions?) of immigrants who will hopefully work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state.

    What! The new immigrants don't work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state? Instead, they also milk the welfare system to get their fair share until nothing is left. Oh, gracious! Sounds like a global Ponzi scheme to me.

    Nationalism aside, I guess we need a completely new model for the organization and functioning of the state in a post-industrial world.

    However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    I don’t know where yanks get this idea from. Britain has been if anything very marginally less pozzed than other Northwest European countries according to polling about attitudes to immigration (not that that’s saying very much).

  68. @Philip Owen
    We did very little conquering. Mostly we bought out the local chiefs and made them aristocrats of he Empire.

    British rule in India started with the battle of Plassey and was expanded in a series of wars against other powers (Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc.) over 40-50 years. Even if cooptation of local rulers was very important, to some extent it was indeed a military conquest.
    Not that this should matter today or be something to be ashamed of.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Plassey is the perfect example. Mir Jaffar, the Nawab's general was paid before the battle started to change sides. Anyway, it wasn't conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.
  69. @Dmitry

    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

     

    Except the problem is mainly religious and ideological. (All this is irrelevant to immigration debate, but simply about saying the truth of the regions where there is a conflict with radical interpretations of Islam).

    The conflict and terrorism problem in regions like the Middle East, Caucasus, South East Asia or Africa, is usually a radical interpretation of Islam, rather than something immutable in the people themselves.

    If you want to be accurate to reality, this is the problem. Muslim nations like Kazakhstan* and Azerbaijan became nice countries, because of the high level of secularization in the Soviet times. Unfortunately, some of these trends may be a little reversed since the 1990s.

    When Muslims are secularized, then they become a modern and developed people. As with the removal of any extreme forms of religion or ideology. The issue is not so much the people (who may be a little more or less suitable for life in civilized countries), but the indoctrination into extremism.

    That doesn't say a country like America, should be accepting immigration. Probably they should not accept any immigrants at all - why would a successful and powerful country want to change the demographic composition that made her successful and powerful?

    But certainly, the problem in many parts of the world, is the religion (under the certain extreme interpretations), rather than the underlying people, and when Muslim countries can become moderate and secularized, they can be as nice as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan.

    -





    * You can have a more peaceful Victory Day than in Kiev, in the capital city of a 70% Sunni Muslim country:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxs0QHxkoho

    Yes, Muslims, give up your religion. Uncle Dmitry is telling you – you will be nice and pleasant countries.

    Join us, Muslims, jooooin uuuuus, don’t you want to be just like us? We have nice pleasant things like coffee, and sneakers…don’t you like sneakers? And you won’t have to wake up in the morning to deal with crying babies…you’ll be freed from the messy necessity of having babies at all..

    Uncle Dmitry is here to give you a helping hand…don’t you want to live nice, pleasant lives? Nice, pleasant lives….nice, pleasant lives…niiiiice pleeeeasant lives….

    Joooin uuuus, Muslims….

    • Replies: @Talha
    This article happened around mother's Day. Written by a Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi - if not Muslim, definitely one of our exports.

    Let's see what she has to say:
    "How Motherhood Made Me a Better Abortion Provider"

    Oh OK...

    "There is no Mother’s Day card to celebrate abortion. There are Mother’s Day cards to celebrate giving hugs, wiping noses, and kissing boo-boos—actions that are seen as the core of how a mother expresses love for her children. For my patients who were not parents, and did not want to be at that moment, or who never want to be a parent, I recognize their abortions as an act of intentional motherhood."

    Uhhhhh...'K...

    "As I finished the five-minute abortion procedure, we laughed about motherhood as her other child watched videos on my phone. We laughed about how demanding and obstinate toddlers can be, about the tribulations of potty training, and about how absolutely strange that “Daddy Finger” song is."

    Frickin' kids - frickin' parasites...
    https://www.glamour.com/story/how-motherhood-made-me-a-better-abortion-provider

    This is kebab...this is kebab on secularism...any questions?

    Peace.
    , @Dmitry
    Because life is, or can be, very good - as long as you are lucky not to suffer various misfortunes, physical or economic (both natural and manmade).

    Religion - particularly radical or politicized forms - is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Sometimes people just need to open walk outside in the sun. It's healthier than falling victim of superstitious fantasies which were designed by people who often were highly inadequate, and probably would have trouble with basic arithmetic.

    That's not to denounce all religion, or deny some myths and practices of religion can be helpful for people psychologically, usually when they do have various misfortunes in their life. Or that in some religions (for example, in Hinduism), there is not contained some interesting philosophical content.
  70. @Matra
    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness

    Right. When Blair got elected in 1997 the Union flag made a bit of a comeback of sorts because it now represented Cool Britannia rather than the stodgy old Rule Britannia. At the time I recall some pop stars, usually identified with the left, suddenly being proud to be British. Blacks born in England are now more likely to describe themselves as 'British' full stop without reference to their parents' background, but rarely ever as 'English'. I wonder if Sikhs in Scotland and blacks in Wales also call themselves 'British', or does the multiculti/prog nationalist image of those places make them more willing to embrace the local identity.

    The Labour party which has perpetual power in Wales goes out of its way to suggest that Welsh nationhood is Civic. So anyone is Welsh. Vaughan Gething the front runner for the FM’s job is a bilingual Welsh speaking black man and one of the cleverest people in the Assembly.

  71. @Randal
    Well, nationalism's complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most "nationalist" politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn "racists", "antisemites" and "homophobes", promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence - US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style "nationalists") anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

    Is it possible for nationalists retreat to Scotland and form a holding pattern? Maybe rebuild Hadrian’s Wall?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
    I somehow suspect English folk would get a pretty dusty welcome if we show up in Scotland fleeing from the chaos we've allowed our own leaders to inflict upon us through our own sheer negligence, and start talking about "British" nationalism.....

    By the way, I thought of you when I read this story the other day;

    Men-only event at US mosque sparks backlash

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You're going to need it.....
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.
  72. @Talha

    Anne Marie Waters
     
    The gay lady with no kids?

    “what about all the gay Muslims?”
     
    LOL!

    drag queen to sing up the stage to prove that New Labour are the real transphobes
     
    LOOOOL!

    Poz-itively awesome!

    Other Football Lads...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-icmPutQDk

    Time for a new national movement guys - seriously! Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNVaaLJ7wHE

    This movement has to have leaders that embody the kind of people that one can look up to; respectable, articulate, sans-tattoos and heterosexual would be a good starting point. Also, dress in gender-normal clothes.

    Peace.

    Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:

    Oh shut the fuck up, your Islamic triumphalism is getting annoying. Muslims in the UK are pampered and protected by the establishment, they are in fact a privileged group, whereas nationalist activists have to face the prospect of having their lives destroyed by the full force of the state. That’s the difference, not any supposed moral superiority on the part of your coreligionists who by and large are nothing but parasites in Britain and ought to be chased out.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @AaronB
    He wasn't being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It's almost like it's lacking a certain "something", but I can't quite put my finger on it...

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren't a protected or privileged class, so I really don't think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it's rather typical of you to think it's the determining factor :) When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers....

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life...
    , @Talha
    Hey man - I'm just saying it's time to swap out the old guard - ain't nothing different that what Mr. Karlin pointed out. Unlike many of you guys, I'm not black-pilled. I know the Brits will get out of this morass. Their civilization will not collapse. They will come out of this stronger than ever. Their Maker will not let them down inshaAllah.

    What arises out of the old ashes? Will it be Islam? I have no clue because I can't predict the future - but it won't be what you're seeing today - it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming. And they will certainly not put up with people who are nothing but parasites and will indeed chase them out.

    Peace.

  73. @AaronB
    Yes, Muslims, give up your religion. Uncle Dmitry is telling you - you will be nice and pleasant countries.

    Join us, Muslims, jooooin uuuuus, don't you want to be just like us? We have nice pleasant things like coffee, and sneakers...don't you like sneakers? And you won't have to wake up in the morning to deal with crying babies...you'll be freed from the messy necessity of having babies at all..

    Uncle Dmitry is here to give you a helping hand...don't you want to live nice, pleasant lives? Nice, pleasant lives....nice, pleasant lives...niiiiice pleeeeasant lives....

    Joooin uuuus, Muslims....

    This article happened around mother’s Day. Written by a Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi – if not Muslim, definitely one of our exports.

    Let’s see what she has to say:
    “How Motherhood Made Me a Better Abortion Provider”

    Oh OK…

    “There is no Mother’s Day card to celebrate abortion. There are Mother’s Day cards to celebrate giving hugs, wiping noses, and kissing boo-boos—actions that are seen as the core of how a mother expresses love for her children. For my patients who were not parents, and did not want to be at that moment, or who never want to be a parent, I recognize their abortions as an act of intentional motherhood.”

    Uhhhhh…’K…

    “As I finished the five-minute abortion procedure, we laughed about motherhood as her other child watched videos on my phone. We laughed about how demanding and obstinate toddlers can be, about the tribulations of potty training, and about how absolutely strange that “Daddy Finger” song is.”

    Frickin’ kids – frickin’ parasites…
    https://www.glamour.com/story/how-motherhood-made-me-a-better-abortion-provider

    This is kebab…this is kebab on secularism…any questions?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Perhaps she comes from one of those nice and pleasant Muslim countries overflowing with coffee and sneakers...
    , @Dmitry
    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia - the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlK-JErebE
  74. @German_reader

    Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:
     
    Oh shut the fuck up, your Islamic triumphalism is getting annoying. Muslims in the UK are pampered and protected by the establishment, they are in fact a privileged group, whereas nationalist activists have to face the prospect of having their lives destroyed by the full force of the state. That's the difference, not any supposed moral superiority on the part of your coreligionists who by and large are nothing but parasites in Britain and ought to be chased out.

    He wasn’t being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It’s almost like it’s lacking a certain “something”, but I can’t quite put my finger on it…

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren’t a protected or privileged class, so I really don’t think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it’s rather typical of you to think it’s the determining factor 🙂 When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers….

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life…

    • Replies: @Talha

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded
     
    That's what I'm talking about. It's like how I've come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it - have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don't know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren't even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who'll take the bullets because:
    "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind - that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve." (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn't made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.
    , @reiner Tor
    People are often happier to sacrifice their lives (especially if those lives are miserable anyway) than sacrifice part of their incomes to pay taxes. Someone who is killed in battle is seen as a hero. Someone who pays a lot of taxes... not so much.

    You don’t understand human nature if you compare nationalist Britons with jobs (unwilling to lose their livelihoods) to unemployed Gazan youths.
    , @Hyperborean
    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don't.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don't have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don't really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don't understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in - a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don't have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation - particularly traditional and obscurantist strains - tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.
  75. @LondonBob
    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    Yes. I was surprised to discover that they chose to have their wedding coincide with my long-planned visit to London. Not sure I will have time to participate in the festivities, though.

  76. @szopen
    Except Polish INdependence marches were big before. The videos of police beating the passer-bys, antifa attacking historical reenactors etc were one of many factors which enabled the defeat of the previous government.

    And nowadays the march of independence is not pro-government. It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.

    It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.

    This is correct, and the question remains for how long. The 100th anniversary of Poland’s (re)independence is coming up later this year and the march will be bigger than even last year’s provided no state interference. Given the current heat with the EU, and the conflict with Israel(as well as their willing puppet, the Trump administration), I expect that there will likely be some form of crackdown this year.

    In some ways that would be bad, in some ways good. PiS was always just a temporary springboard for me, at any rate. Civic nationalism, even one which is better than the vast majority of competing offers in the West, is ultimately ideologically limited to the point of being handicapped or crippled. There’s too much blind PiS support among right-wingers, even those who should know better, because the economy is doing well and they mostly have held the lines vis-a-vis the EU and the “refugee” question. It makes it easier to ignore the long-term flaws of PiS’ ideological underpinning. A crackdown would be problematic in the short term but probably good in the long term, it would wake up a lot of people who are daydreaming now.

  77. @Talha
    This article happened around mother's Day. Written by a Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi - if not Muslim, definitely one of our exports.

    Let's see what she has to say:
    "How Motherhood Made Me a Better Abortion Provider"

    Oh OK...

    "There is no Mother’s Day card to celebrate abortion. There are Mother’s Day cards to celebrate giving hugs, wiping noses, and kissing boo-boos—actions that are seen as the core of how a mother expresses love for her children. For my patients who were not parents, and did not want to be at that moment, or who never want to be a parent, I recognize their abortions as an act of intentional motherhood."

    Uhhhhh...'K...

    "As I finished the five-minute abortion procedure, we laughed about motherhood as her other child watched videos on my phone. We laughed about how demanding and obstinate toddlers can be, about the tribulations of potty training, and about how absolutely strange that “Daddy Finger” song is."

    Frickin' kids - frickin' parasites...
    https://www.glamour.com/story/how-motherhood-made-me-a-better-abortion-provider

    This is kebab...this is kebab on secularism...any questions?

    Peace.

    Perhaps she comes from one of those nice and pleasant Muslim countries overflowing with coffee and sneakers…

  78. @German_reader

    Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:
     
    Oh shut the fuck up, your Islamic triumphalism is getting annoying. Muslims in the UK are pampered and protected by the establishment, they are in fact a privileged group, whereas nationalist activists have to face the prospect of having their lives destroyed by the full force of the state. That's the difference, not any supposed moral superiority on the part of your coreligionists who by and large are nothing but parasites in Britain and ought to be chased out.

    Hey man – I’m just saying it’s time to swap out the old guard – ain’t nothing different that what Mr. Karlin pointed out. Unlike many of you guys, I’m not black-pilled. I know the Brits will get out of this morass. Their civilization will not collapse. They will come out of this stronger than ever. Their Maker will not let them down inshaAllah.

    What arises out of the old ashes? Will it be Islam? I have no clue because I can’t predict the future – but it won’t be what you’re seeing today – it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming. And they will certainly not put up with people who are nothing but parasites and will indeed chase them out.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal

    it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming
     
    And most likely most of it won't be British either....

    Except in the purely geographical sense.
  79. @German_reader
    British rule in India started with the battle of Plassey and was expanded in a series of wars against other powers (Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc.) over 40-50 years. Even if cooptation of local rulers was very important, to some extent it was indeed a military conquest.
    Not that this should matter today or be something to be ashamed of.

    Plassey is the perfect example. Mir Jaffar, the Nawab’s general was paid before the battle started to change sides. Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.

    • Replies: @DFH
    Clive and Wellington fought plenty of other straight battles in which they defeated Oudh, the Mughals, Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc. without paying anyone off.

    Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.
     
    Who was replaced and reinstalled several times (with the East India Company taking some districts) until Bengal was actually conquered, which Clive fought more battles with the Mughal emperor to defend
  80. @Talha
    Is it possible for nationalists retreat to Scotland and form a holding pattern? Maybe rebuild Hadrian's Wall?

    Peace.

    I somehow suspect English folk would get a pretty dusty welcome if we show up in Scotland fleeing from the chaos we’ve allowed our own leaders to inflict upon us through our own sheer negligence, and start talking about “British” nationalism…..

    By the way, I thought of you when I read this story the other day;

    Men-only event at US mosque sparks backlash

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..

    • Replies: @Talha

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..
     
    Thanks we will.

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree - I've seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives - it's not right to toss them bones.

    But as far as some of the seriously whack stuff some of the SJW Muslims are trying to bring to the mosque...may God have mercy upon us.

    Peace.
  81. @Talha
    Hey man - I'm just saying it's time to swap out the old guard - ain't nothing different that what Mr. Karlin pointed out. Unlike many of you guys, I'm not black-pilled. I know the Brits will get out of this morass. Their civilization will not collapse. They will come out of this stronger than ever. Their Maker will not let them down inshaAllah.

    What arises out of the old ashes? Will it be Islam? I have no clue because I can't predict the future - but it won't be what you're seeing today - it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming. And they will certainly not put up with people who are nothing but parasites and will indeed chase them out.

    Peace.

    it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming

    And most likely most of it won’t be British either….

    Except in the purely geographical sense.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    You're like over 90% of the population. If you're already starting to despair, you're in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you're throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.
    , @Talha
    I'm going to disagree with you here. I'm saying it's going to be British - native British. It just won't be recognizable to what we're seeing at that rally.

    Peace.
  82. @Randal

    it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming
     
    And most likely most of it won't be British either....

    Except in the purely geographical sense.

    You’re like over 90% of the population. If you’re already starting to despair, you’re in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.

    • Replies: @Randal

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve
     
    That's a young man's game.

    when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.
     
    That's you projecting your particular concerns onto me. I'm not obsessive about a muslim threat - I tend to agree with greasy's comment above in that regard. The problem is mass immigration, regardless of religion, and religious difference is just another aggravating factor like racial difference.

    And mass immigration is far from the only problem we face, as I noted above. Undue jewish lobby influence (as manifested in our warped foreign policy and in the subordination of our establishments to jewish lobby attacks on free speech) is another huge problem. And the biggest of all is arguably our more or less complete political, military and cultural subordination since 1945 to the US.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.
    , @songbird
    The Moorish conquest of Spain was fundamentally different, since it did not involve modern mechanisms of transportation, supply, and medical technology, as well as communications.
    , @neutral
    I have not seen a single sign that whites in Britain are going to do anything. Their daughters are raped, their children are killed on concerts, their land is overrun by hundreds of thousands foreigners every year and they do nothing about it except pass more hate speech laws. In what scenario do you see them doing anything that is pro white?
  83. @songbird
    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits. High IQ. Large amygdalae and all the other brain structures that go with conservatism. Good looks and a good voice. Monogamy. Good health.

    Otherwise a monarchy is just a dice roll and the dice are loaded for globalization.

    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits.

    Rationality and monarchy don’t sit easily together, even in the eugenicist form you propose.

    It was rationalised for a long time based upon Christian premises, but those are long gone from the post-Christian societies of the US sphere.

  84. @AaronB
    You're like over 90% of the population. If you're already starting to despair, you're in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you're throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve

    That’s a young man’s game.

    when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.

    That’s you projecting your particular concerns onto me. I’m not obsessive about a muslim threat – I tend to agree with greasy’s comment above in that regard. The problem is mass immigration, regardless of religion, and religious difference is just another aggravating factor like racial difference.

    And mass immigration is far from the only problem we face, as I noted above. Undue jewish lobby influence (as manifested in our warped foreign policy and in the subordination of our establishments to jewish lobby attacks on free speech) is another huge problem. And the biggest of all is arguably our more or less complete political, military and cultural subordination since 1945 to the US.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.

    • Replies: @AaronB

    That’s a young man’s game.
     
    Indeed. I have come to the same conclusion. But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    I think it's obvious I'm not particularly concerned about yhe Muslim threat either. I was just using that as an example.

    Agree with all your other points really Jews, US, etc.

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don't counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.
     
    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be - everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.
  85. @AaronB
    He wasn't being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It's almost like it's lacking a certain "something", but I can't quite put my finger on it...

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren't a protected or privileged class, so I really don't think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it's rather typical of you to think it's the determining factor :) When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers....

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life...

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded

    That’s what I’m talking about. It’s like how I’ve come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it – have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don’t know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who’ll take the bullets because:
    “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind – that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.” (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn’t made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Agreed.

    I remember a few years ago some people I knew were moaning about the economy - and I was thinking, so people will only afford one car and one TV rather than multiples of each?

    It's ridiculous.

    Some of the best times of my life and my fondest memories are of living for months in some garret in the Indian mountains, with a cot on the floor and no other furniture.

    Even today when I can afford better I live simply.

    I believe Goethe said we should avoid too much comfort in our personal lives.

    But it's materialism. Without higher values, what's left bit comfort?
    , @Ali Choudhury
    Yes, non-European immigration isn't that large compared to existing local populations. The natives simply don't believe any more that having and raising a family is the most important part of life. The incomers have the same attitude to family that was prevalent here two or three generations back when large families were much more common. A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement. As it stands, there will be may be half as many Italians in 50 years as there are now. Germany will have lost over 20% of its native population by 2060. Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don't want to procreate.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids...“Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.."
     
    Why yes, if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton, I'm sure that it will be the most populous in a world of infinite welfare state. Doubly so if it encourages them to die in the name of said ideology to further spread it.

    I am, on the other hand, profoundly skeptical that it'll get us any closer to colonizing the stars. Or producing anything at all beyond more of itself. While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc. None of that is encouraged by maximizing R strategy fertility.

    I swear this thread has gone dumb some time ago.
  86. @Daniel Chieh

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

     

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    That’s taking traditionalism too far even for me, especially as I’m not Catholic…..

  87. @AaronB
    He wasn't being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It's almost like it's lacking a certain "something", but I can't quite put my finger on it...

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren't a protected or privileged class, so I really don't think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it's rather typical of you to think it's the determining factor :) When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers....

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life...

    People are often happier to sacrifice their lives (especially if those lives are miserable anyway) than sacrifice part of their incomes to pay taxes. Someone who is killed in battle is seen as a hero. Someone who pays a lot of taxes… not so much.

    You don’t understand human nature if you compare nationalist Britons with jobs (unwilling to lose their livelihoods) to unemployed Gazan youths.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    And you don't understand human nature if you think it is motivated primarily by materialistic factors.

    History shows countless examples of rich wealthy people with comfortable lives chucking it all for a cause

    In fact Muslim terrorists are known to come from the middle and upper middle class, and it is a lie that they are motivated by poverty and hardship.

    Snap out of it. Break the spell.
  88. @Talha
    Is it possible for nationalists retreat to Scotland and form a holding pattern? Maybe rebuild Hadrian's Wall?

    Peace.

    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.

    • Replies: @Talha
    What??!! Are you kidding me!!! Man, all my Braveheart memories are coming crashing down...

    They told me those were kilts! KILTS!!!

    Peace.
    , @songbird
    Makes me wonder about Lowland vs. Highland Scots.

    Battlefield Earth (not the movie!) had hardscrabble highlanders hanging on after much of the rest of humanity had been wiped out in a genocidal alien invasion.
    , @fernie
    What's a Based person?
  89. @Randal
    I somehow suspect English folk would get a pretty dusty welcome if we show up in Scotland fleeing from the chaos we've allowed our own leaders to inflict upon us through our own sheer negligence, and start talking about "British" nationalism.....

    By the way, I thought of you when I read this story the other day;

    Men-only event at US mosque sparks backlash

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You're going to need it.....

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..

    Thanks we will.

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.

    But as far as some of the seriously whack stuff some of the SJW Muslims are trying to bring to the mosque…may God have mercy upon us.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.
     
    You're right, of course.

    The problem is in these things that the reasonable acts as a gateway for the unreasonable. Standing against what is a reasonable expectation generates resentment and boosts support for the activists. Giving in to what are after all essentially reasonable demands empowers the activists and demotivates conservatives, and removes barriers to further movement. It's a classic no win situation.

    That's the history of the US sphere in the C20th, right there.
  90. @Mitleser

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?
     
    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible…..

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting

    The Salazar option would be much better, I believe.
    , @dfordoom

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible…..
     
    And Spain today is as cucked as the rest of Europe. Franco gave it his best shot but the forces of darkness won in the end.

    Definitely not plausible. In modern Britain the army is going to be on the side of multiculturalism and open borders and trannies and homo marriage.
  91. @Anatoly Karlin
    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.

    What??!! Are you kidding me!!! Man, all my Braveheart memories are coming crashing down…

    They told me those were kilts! KILTS!!!

    Peace.

  92. @Randal

    it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming
     
    And most likely most of it won't be British either....

    Except in the purely geographical sense.

    I’m going to disagree with you here. I’m saying it’s going to be British – native British. It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
    Time will tell, but basic demographics doesn't seem to be on your side at the moment. Granted, it's always risky extrapolating present trends, but the bottom line is that we no longer have the basic travel costs and difficulty protection that allowed the creation of nations, and current ideology forbids other protections. So you are essentially gambling on the overthrow of the current ideological elite (which remember is a US sphere elite, and arguably global, not just British) before it's too late to make any difference. A half century or so? Perhaps a century if the optimists are correct.

    A long shot, I think, but faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.
     
    Not sure the rally is representative of anything much.
  93. @AaronB
    You're like over 90% of the population. If you're already starting to despair, you're in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you're throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.

    The Moorish conquest of Spain was fundamentally different, since it did not involve modern mechanisms of transportation, supply, and medical technology, as well as communications.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I am sure you can come up with a million reasons for why we must despair now because it's fundamentally different, and we have no hope.

    It's always fundamentally different. I'm sure there were Spanish noblemen arguing the mooring conquest was fundamentally different.

    Whatever technology now gives the other side an advantage, provides opportunities for you to come up with creative solutions as well.
  94. @Greasy William
    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don't give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left's game.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.

    The common reasoning for those who do so is that it was one of the few ways you could stand against mass immigration without being instantly dismissed as a “racist”.

    The left has tried to conflate the two terms, and introduced another similar smear term “islamophobe” to try to close the loophole they’d left for liberty, but with relatively limited success compared to the pretty much complete triumph they had creating and imposing the “racism” taboo.

    • Replies: @Greasy William

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.
     
    The Jews have already won. We don't need anybody to play our game.

    The Left, however, is another story.
    , @DFH

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.
     
    Who cares? There are more important things than a horrible little country in the Middle East, however cringeworthy the cucking to Jews is by the alt-lite
  95. @Anatoly Karlin
    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.

    Makes me wonder about Lowland vs. Highland Scots.

    Battlefield Earth (not the movie!) had hardscrabble highlanders hanging on after much of the rest of humanity had been wiped out in a genocidal alien invasion.

    • Replies: @DFH
    The only gaelic speaker I've ever met was a commie. Apart from Gaelic speaking in the Western Isles, I don't think there is much of a cultural difference (any more) between the mainland Highlands and the Lowlands.
  96. @Talha
    I'm going to disagree with you here. I'm saying it's going to be British - native British. It just won't be recognizable to what we're seeing at that rally.

    Peace.

    Time will tell, but basic demographics doesn’t seem to be on your side at the moment. Granted, it’s always risky extrapolating present trends, but the bottom line is that we no longer have the basic travel costs and difficulty protection that allowed the creation of nations, and current ideology forbids other protections. So you are essentially gambling on the overthrow of the current ideological elite (which remember is a US sphere elite, and arguably global, not just British) before it’s too late to make any difference. A half century or so? Perhaps a century if the optimists are correct.

    A long shot, I think, but faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.

    Not sure the rally is representative of anything much.

    • Replies: @Talha

    basic demographics doesn’t seem to be on your side at the moment.
     
    They will change as the people themselves change.

    faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.
     
    Ha! Exactly!

    Peace.
  97. @Randal

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve
     
    That's a young man's game.

    when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.
     
    That's you projecting your particular concerns onto me. I'm not obsessive about a muslim threat - I tend to agree with greasy's comment above in that regard. The problem is mass immigration, regardless of religion, and religious difference is just another aggravating factor like racial difference.

    And mass immigration is far from the only problem we face, as I noted above. Undue jewish lobby influence (as manifested in our warped foreign policy and in the subordination of our establishments to jewish lobby attacks on free speech) is another huge problem. And the biggest of all is arguably our more or less complete political, military and cultural subordination since 1945 to the US.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.

    That’s a young man’s game.

    Indeed. I have come to the same conclusion. But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    I think it’s obvious I’m not particularly concerned about yhe Muslim threat either. I was just using that as an example.

    Agree with all your other points really Jews, US, etc.

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don’t counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Randal

    But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.
     
    There's a time and place for enthusiastic energy and there's a time and a place for recognising hard realities.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.
     
    I've noticed you do have a liking for platitudes. To the contrary there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that Britishness or Englishness will necessarily survive, whatever it means, unless it is just empty geography. Something that is called Britishness will doubtless exist, but it will have little to do with what was here before 1997, let alone what was here before 1945.

    Such naïve complacency is in some ways worse than despair.

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.
    , @for-the-record
    The British underwent many mutations before.

    Absolutely nothing compared to the great social experiment on which they are now embarked, beyond the point of no return it would appear.

    I strongly recommend that you peruse (in the original sense) the following article:

    Unmaking England

    Will immigration demolish in decades a nation built over centuries?

    Over the last 18 years, Great Britain—more precisely, England, a distinction we’ll get to soon—has been in the grip of the most profound social transformation since the Industrial Revolution. Neither the upheavals attendant on the world wars nor the dislocations triggered by economic depressions nor the changes wrought by the attenuated breakdown of a social order rooted in a feudal past have so fundamentally altered England’s civilization as will the impact of mass immigration. . .

    But the mass immigration that Britain has experienced since 1997—the year Tony Blair’s New Labour government radically revised the immigration laws in a deliberate effort to transform Britain into a multicultural society—has had an effect wholly different from that of all previous political and social disruptions. Mass immigration hasn’t merely embellished, changed, or even assaulted the enduring, resilient national culture that Orwell adumbrated. Rather, by its very nature—by its inherent logic, and by the ideology, aspirations, and world-historical forces from which it springs and to which it gives expression—it perforce obliterates that culture. . .

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/unmaking-england/
     
    , @dfordoom

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don’t counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.
     
    And what exactly is this cause for which we should fight? We no longer seem to have an actual civilisation worth preserving. Are we supposed to risk our lives fighting for classical liberalism? For tax cuts? For the right of men to wear dresses and use the ladies' room?
  98. @reiner Tor
    People are often happier to sacrifice their lives (especially if those lives are miserable anyway) than sacrifice part of their incomes to pay taxes. Someone who is killed in battle is seen as a hero. Someone who pays a lot of taxes... not so much.

    You don’t understand human nature if you compare nationalist Britons with jobs (unwilling to lose their livelihoods) to unemployed Gazan youths.

    And you don’t understand human nature if you think it is motivated primarily by materialistic factors.

    History shows countless examples of rich wealthy people with comfortable lives chucking it all for a cause

    In fact Muslim terrorists are known to come from the middle and upper middle class, and it is a lie that they are motivated by poverty and hardship.

    Snap out of it. Break the spell.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You still don't get it. Had the police started a true massacre, killing hundreds of the participants in the rally, this might motivate tens of thousands to engage in violence or terrorism. (Which the Palestinians are doing.) But instead it's just a few people losing their jobs.

    I have heard of many people enthusiastically sacrificing their lives in battle. Not many people have enthusiastically paid their taxes.

    The situation is so bad because it's quite comfortable on the individual level.
  99. @Talha

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..
     
    Thanks we will.

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree - I've seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives - it's not right to toss them bones.

    But as far as some of the seriously whack stuff some of the SJW Muslims are trying to bring to the mosque...may God have mercy upon us.

    Peace.

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.

    You’re right, of course.

    The problem is in these things that the reasonable acts as a gateway for the unreasonable. Standing against what is a reasonable expectation generates resentment and boosts support for the activists. Giving in to what are after all essentially reasonable demands empowers the activists and demotivates conservatives, and removes barriers to further movement. It’s a classic no win situation.

    That’s the history of the US sphere in the C20th, right there.

    • Replies: @Talha

    It’s a classic no win situation.
     
    That's why you have to have a referee to call the shots. We Muslims always have to refer to the Shariah in these matters - which is more codified and firm and long standing.

    So we accommodate where we can and draw the line where it is not allowed. It's funny, my Mom participates in the local mosque where she lives - my dad was one of the founders - and she and other ladies are constantly pushing back against the modernist women who are trying to push a more liberal view. You'll always have those elements - but you need traditional women to put the smack down on it.

    Peace.
  100. @songbird
    The Moorish conquest of Spain was fundamentally different, since it did not involve modern mechanisms of transportation, supply, and medical technology, as well as communications.

    I am sure you can come up with a million reasons for why we must despair now because it’s fundamentally different, and we have no hope.

    It’s always fundamentally different. I’m sure there were Spanish noblemen arguing the mooring conquest was fundamentally different.

    Whatever technology now gives the other side an advantage, provides opportunities for you to come up with creative solutions as well.

  101. @Polish Perspective

    What would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.
     
    The elites did attack them in Poland, and successfully repressed them for a number of years. The nationalist march started under the previous neoliberal regime. How did we change the status quo? We threw them out. There are no guarantees that PiS will not transmogrify in the same direction given time. But if they do, we'll throw them out again, this time to more radical alternatives, but that will be the task for the next generation.

    75% of young poles prefer right-wing parties. It is 50% (PiS+Kukiz'15) for the general public. It's notable that 20%(!) of young Polish women support Korwin-Mikke's libertarian party, and given his quotes on feminism, Poland is probably your best bet if you want a libertarian-leaning, feminist-hating waifu.

    Those are remarkable trends. I wonder what the dynamic that explains them is. Could it be a lot of first hand accounts of Western Europe? I can’t find any current figures, but my perception is that there is a lot of higher education in Poland – a high rate among youth. Normally, colleges are blamed for leftist indoctrination. Perhaps, the majors are different…

  102. @AaronB
    You're like over 90% of the population. If you're already starting to despair, you're in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you're throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.

    I have not seen a single sign that whites in Britain are going to do anything. Their daughters are raped, their children are killed on concerts, their land is overrun by hundreds of thousands foreigners every year and they do nothing about it except pass more hate speech laws. In what scenario do you see them doing anything that is pro white?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I'm not denying the situation is very bad. The rot runs deep. And I suspect there will be a lot more defeats and pain before anything changes. And many British, as Talha says, will be culled.

    But so what? How long did the Spanish suffer humiliation before thry got their act together?

    The French suffered a hundred years of British maurading and humiliation before they got their act together.

    What about colonialism in Asia? Did the Asians just give up?

    Under what scenario will things change? When the British abandon materialism and reconnect to higher values. This is am indispensable condition, and since materialism is maladaptive it will vanish.

    And you're forgetting also the fragility of our current system and current elites - Jewish achievement at high levels has already collapsed as Ron Unz showed, and they are frantically trying to establish themselves as a caste based on fraudulent science, since their claim to merit as displayed through achievement is vanishing

    The current system, based as it is on materialism and counter to nature, is fundamentally fragile.
  103. @Talha

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded
     
    That's what I'm talking about. It's like how I've come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it - have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don't know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren't even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who'll take the bullets because:
    "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind - that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve." (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn't made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.

    Agreed.

    I remember a few years ago some people I knew were moaning about the economy – and I was thinking, so people will only afford one car and one TV rather than multiples of each?

    It’s ridiculous.

    Some of the best times of my life and my fondest memories are of living for months in some garret in the Indian mountains, with a cot on the floor and no other furniture.

    Even today when I can afford better I live simply.

    I believe Goethe said we should avoid too much comfort in our personal lives.

    But it’s materialism. Without higher values, what’s left bit comfort?

  104. @Talha

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded
     
    That's what I'm talking about. It's like how I've come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it - have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don't know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren't even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who'll take the bullets because:
    "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind - that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve." (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn't made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.

    Yes, non-European immigration isn’t that large compared to existing local populations. The natives simply don’t believe any more that having and raising a family is the most important part of life. The incomers have the same attitude to family that was prevalent here two or three generations back when large families were much more common. A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement. As it stands, there will be may be half as many Italians in 50 years as there are now. Germany will have lost over 20% of its native population by 2060. Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    • Replies: @Talha

    A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement.
     
    Exactly - it doesn't need to be a majority movement - just enough native people returning to core traditional family principles.

    if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.
     
    Indeed - it's the basic building blocks of human society. Goat herders in Eritrea can figure it out. It's not complicated.

    Peace.
    , @Randal

    Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.
     
    Well no, absent mass immigration a few decades of declining population is not a big deal, especially in a heavily populated island like the UK (or Japan, even more so). And absent mass immigration the elites that profit from it and are the main driver behind promoting it and suppressing resistance to it would be forced to take serious measures instead to promote indigenous reproduction, ultimately resolving the problem with hopefully a reasonably stable population.
    , @Svigor
    I agree with Randal, this is bullshit. Japs' birthrate has crashed, yet Japan is still Japanese. They can repopulate at their leisure.
  105. @Randal

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.
     
    More importantly, you're playing Israel's game.

    To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.
     
    The common reasoning for those who do so is that it was one of the few ways you could stand against mass immigration without being instantly dismissed as a "racist".

    The left has tried to conflate the two terms, and introduced another similar smear term "islamophobe" to try to close the loophole they'd left for liberty, but with relatively limited success compared to the pretty much complete triumph they had creating and imposing the "racism" taboo.

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    The Jews have already won. We don’t need anybody to play our game.

    The Left, however, is another story.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    And it is when you have "won", that the slide towards defeat begins. Nietzsche said victory makes stupid. He was right.

    Europeans begin their slide towards decline right after they had reached an unprecedented peak of power and total victory over the whole world.

    Peak Jew will be closely followed by Jewish decline. Ron is already documenting this
  106. @Randal
    Time will tell, but basic demographics doesn't seem to be on your side at the moment. Granted, it's always risky extrapolating present trends, but the bottom line is that we no longer have the basic travel costs and difficulty protection that allowed the creation of nations, and current ideology forbids other protections. So you are essentially gambling on the overthrow of the current ideological elite (which remember is a US sphere elite, and arguably global, not just British) before it's too late to make any difference. A half century or so? Perhaps a century if the optimists are correct.

    A long shot, I think, but faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.
     
    Not sure the rally is representative of anything much.

    basic demographics doesn’t seem to be on your side at the moment.

    They will change as the people themselves change.

    faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    Ha! Exactly!

    Peace.

  107. @neutral
    I have not seen a single sign that whites in Britain are going to do anything. Their daughters are raped, their children are killed on concerts, their land is overrun by hundreds of thousands foreigners every year and they do nothing about it except pass more hate speech laws. In what scenario do you see them doing anything that is pro white?

    I’m not denying the situation is very bad. The rot runs deep. And I suspect there will be a lot more defeats and pain before anything changes. And many British, as Talha says, will be culled.

    But so what? How long did the Spanish suffer humiliation before thry got their act together?

    The French suffered a hundred years of British maurading and humiliation before they got their act together.

    What about colonialism in Asia? Did the Asians just give up?

    Under what scenario will things change? When the British abandon materialism and reconnect to higher values. This is am indispensable condition, and since materialism is maladaptive it will vanish.

    And you’re forgetting also the fragility of our current system and current elites – Jewish achievement at high levels has already collapsed as Ron Unz showed, and they are frantically trying to establish themselves as a caste based on fraudulent science, since their claim to merit as displayed through achievement is vanishing

    The current system, based as it is on materialism and counter to nature, is fundamentally fragile.

  108. @AaronB

    That’s a young man’s game.
     
    Indeed. I have come to the same conclusion. But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    I think it's obvious I'm not particularly concerned about yhe Muslim threat either. I was just using that as an example.

    Agree with all your other points really Jews, US, etc.

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don't counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.
     
    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be - everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    There’s a time and place for enthusiastic energy and there’s a time and a place for recognising hard realities.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    I’ve noticed you do have a liking for platitudes. To the contrary there’s no reason whatsoever to suppose that Britishness or Englishness will necessarily survive, whatever it means, unless it is just empty geography. Something that is called Britishness will doubtless exist, but it will have little to do with what was here before 1997, let alone what was here before 1945.

    Such naïve complacency is in some ways worse than despair.

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I don't think you are understanding my position if you think I am counseling naive complacency!

    What you do not understand is that "hard realities" are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    And platitudes are healthy - the cynicism and "subtlety" of an overripe civilization that has grown weary is not healthy.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete. Go read a Sir Walter Scott novel - I'm reading one now.

    But if you prefer despair, that is your choice.
    , @Talha

    I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.
     
    This is what I was talking about. The native Brits who survive this will not be post-Christian; that is a dead end.

    Brits were pagans, then Christian-Catholic, then Anglican, then post-Christian - there will be another mutation for survival. Will it be Islam? Possibly. Will it be a revived Christianity? That is also quite possible - many Muslim countries were quite irreligious from the 50s through the 80s until the push back started happening. It can readily happen in the UK. Or will it be a completely new religion (or a non-native version of Christianity like Orthodox)? Also possible.
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/14/liberal-churches-in-decline-while-orthodox-ones-grow-says-study-of-protestants-in-canada/

    I do not see them being ethnically replaced though for a couple of reasons; 1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight. Possibly and equilibrium is at hand.

    Peace.

    , @Svigor

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.
     
    Yes, somehow I doubt the Spanish were mind-conquered the way Whites are in the West. They had the luxury of actually being conquered militarily, not sold down the river by their own elite via mass indoctrination and open borders, via conversion to an autogenocidal religion.

    This is why people dumb it down to "the West committing suicide." Nonsense, but nonsense with a kernel of truth.

    Whites are not even a people anymore. This first war, the Reconquista of the White Mind, is going to be the hardest fight, by far. Peoples are always ready to fight for their own side. Our job is to make Whites into peoples. It's a huge task.

    The rest of the war will practically fight itself. England could shrug her shoulders and evict the invaders in a fortnight if she wanted to.

  109. DFH says:
    @Philip Owen
    Plassey is the perfect example. Mir Jaffar, the Nawab's general was paid before the battle started to change sides. Anyway, it wasn't conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.

    Clive and Wellington fought plenty of other straight battles in which they defeated Oudh, the Mughals, Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc. without paying anyone off.

    Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.

    Who was replaced and reinstalled several times (with the East India Company taking some districts) until Bengal was actually conquered, which Clive fought more battles with the Mughal emperor to defend

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Tipu Sultan & the Marathas were French agents. Defence not conquest. Oudh, give you. Wellesley was a typical ambitious general who wanted wars.
  110. @songbird
    Makes me wonder about Lowland vs. Highland Scots.

    Battlefield Earth (not the movie!) had hardscrabble highlanders hanging on after much of the rest of humanity had been wiped out in a genocidal alien invasion.

    The only gaelic speaker I’ve ever met was a commie. Apart from Gaelic speaking in the Western Isles, I don’t think there is much of a cultural difference (any more) between the mainland Highlands and the Lowlands.

  111. @Greasy William

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.
     
    The Jews have already won. We don't need anybody to play our game.

    The Left, however, is another story.

    And it is when you have “won”, that the slide towards defeat begins. Nietzsche said victory makes stupid. He was right.

    Europeans begin their slide towards decline right after they had reached an unprecedented peak of power and total victory over the whole world.

    Peak Jew will be closely followed by Jewish decline. Ron is already documenting this

    • Replies: @Svigor
    From your lips to G-d's Ears.
  112. @Randal

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.
     
    More importantly, you're playing Israel's game.

    To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.
     
    The common reasoning for those who do so is that it was one of the few ways you could stand against mass immigration without being instantly dismissed as a "racist".

    The left has tried to conflate the two terms, and introduced another similar smear term "islamophobe" to try to close the loophole they'd left for liberty, but with relatively limited success compared to the pretty much complete triumph they had creating and imposing the "racism" taboo.

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    Who cares? There are more important things than a horrible little country in the Middle East, however cringeworthy the cucking to Jews is by the alt-lite

    • Replies: @Randal
    If only it were just the shitty little country itself that was the concern here. What we are dealing with is a lobby that can get people locked up in this country merely for saying things they don't like, as documented above, and that can more or less openly subvert our politicians and face merely a slap on the wrist and prompt media suppression of the story when exposed.
  113. @Randal

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.
     
    You're right, of course.

    The problem is in these things that the reasonable acts as a gateway for the unreasonable. Standing against what is a reasonable expectation generates resentment and boosts support for the activists. Giving in to what are after all essentially reasonable demands empowers the activists and demotivates conservatives, and removes barriers to further movement. It's a classic no win situation.

    That's the history of the US sphere in the C20th, right there.

    It’s a classic no win situation.

    That’s why you have to have a referee to call the shots. We Muslims always have to refer to the Shariah in these matters – which is more codified and firm and long standing.

    So we accommodate where we can and draw the line where it is not allowed. It’s funny, my Mom participates in the local mosque where she lives – my dad was one of the founders – and she and other ladies are constantly pushing back against the modernist women who are trying to push a more liberal view. You’ll always have those elements – but you need traditional women to put the smack down on it.

    Peace.

  114. @Randal

    But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.
     
    There's a time and place for enthusiastic energy and there's a time and a place for recognising hard realities.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.
     
    I've noticed you do have a liking for platitudes. To the contrary there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that Britishness or Englishness will necessarily survive, whatever it means, unless it is just empty geography. Something that is called Britishness will doubtless exist, but it will have little to do with what was here before 1997, let alone what was here before 1945.

    Such naïve complacency is in some ways worse than despair.

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    I don’t think you are understanding my position if you think I am counseling naive complacency!

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    And platitudes are healthy – the cynicism and “subtlety” of an overripe civilization that has grown weary is not healthy.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete. Go read a Sir Walter Scott novel – I’m reading one now.

    But if you prefer despair, that is your choice.

    • Replies: @Randal

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.
     
    You seem to regard stating the obvious as some kind of achievement. Obviously sometimes "hard realities" are "just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person". More often, of course, "hard realities" are actually just that - hard realities.

    That there might be nothing meaningfully British or English left within a few generations is a hard reality that needs to be confronted in order to recognise the seriousness of the situation we are in. The idea that "it'll be alright" because Britishness will continue come what may is precisely naive complacency (or cynical dishonesty, perhaps, depending on the motive for expressing it). It's true of course that Britishness might survive anyway, and arguments can be made for that - but that's very different from expressing it as an empty, faith-based platitudinous inevitability.

    Much of what I've seen you write here is criticism of "racists" or "white nationalists" for trying to address some of those hard realities, when in your opinion they should instead be taking the moral high ground by basically sticking their heads in the sand and trusting that all will be for the best if they just adopt your ideals of moral sanctimony instead of confronting the aforementioned hard realities.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete.
     
    Again, keep your childish recommendations for the children for whom they might be appropriate.

    Though such children would be well advised to pay attention to the hard realities as well as being appropriately enthusiastic. It's usually best to learn from more experienced others rather than pay the price of naivety yourself too often.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.
     
    Yes, just as all people use platitudes when they have nothing really to say but want to appear superior.

    But doubtless the ones who had nothing more than platitudes tended to be especially the ones who ended up dying pointlessly or wasting their lives in effort without achievement. Meanwhile most of the actual work was done by those who had a bit more about them.
  115. @DFH

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.
     
    Who cares? There are more important things than a horrible little country in the Middle East, however cringeworthy the cucking to Jews is by the alt-lite

    If only it were just the shitty little country itself that was the concern here. What we are dealing with is a lobby that can get people locked up in this country merely for saying things they don’t like, as documented above, and that can more or less openly subvert our politicians and face merely a slap on the wrist and prompt media suppression of the story when exposed.

  116. @DFH
    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

    it sorta does in context. Highly recommended.
    Or am I the Jew?

  117. @Randal

    But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.
     
    There's a time and place for enthusiastic energy and there's a time and a place for recognising hard realities.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.
     
    I've noticed you do have a liking for platitudes. To the contrary there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that Britishness or Englishness will necessarily survive, whatever it means, unless it is just empty geography. Something that is called Britishness will doubtless exist, but it will have little to do with what was here before 1997, let alone what was here before 1945.

    Such naïve complacency is in some ways worse than despair.

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    This is what I was talking about. The native Brits who survive this will not be post-Christian; that is a dead end.

    Brits were pagans, then Christian-Catholic, then Anglican, then post-Christian – there will be another mutation for survival. Will it be Islam? Possibly. Will it be a revived Christianity? That is also quite possible – many Muslim countries were quite irreligious from the 50s through the 80s until the push back started happening. It can readily happen in the UK. Or will it be a completely new religion (or a non-native version of Christianity like Orthodox)? Also possible.
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/14/liberal-churches-in-decline-while-orthodox-ones-grow-says-study-of-protestants-in-canada/

    I do not see them being ethnically replaced though for a couple of reasons; 1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight. Possibly and equilibrium is at hand.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I see a real possibility it will be orthodox - bit then Celtic Christianity was basically orthodox.

    But I see a real interest in orthodoxy in the Anglo countries.

    It may very well turn out Muslim as well - if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    In the 60s it looked like eastern religions might be the ones, but not anymore. Too foreign it seems - but I love them.
    , @Randal
    These are all possibilities, though by no means necessarily the most likely imo. What I object to is the assumption that they will necessarily come about.

    Still more, the implication that "white nationalists" should shut up about the hard realities they face because it'll all work out alright in the end regardless.


    1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight
     
    From what I see around me the younger generations seem more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues, certainly on "racism".

    And it does little for subsequent generations of the incomers to progressively approach norms of lower childbirth, if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.
  118. @Ali Choudhury
    Yes, non-European immigration isn't that large compared to existing local populations. The natives simply don't believe any more that having and raising a family is the most important part of life. The incomers have the same attitude to family that was prevalent here two or three generations back when large families were much more common. A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement. As it stands, there will be may be half as many Italians in 50 years as there are now. Germany will have lost over 20% of its native population by 2060. Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don't want to procreate.

    A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement.

    Exactly – it doesn’t need to be a majority movement – just enough native people returning to core traditional family principles.

    if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    Indeed – it’s the basic building blocks of human society. Goat herders in Eritrea can figure it out. It’s not complicated.

    Peace.

  119. @Talha

    I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.
     
    This is what I was talking about. The native Brits who survive this will not be post-Christian; that is a dead end.

    Brits were pagans, then Christian-Catholic, then Anglican, then post-Christian - there will be another mutation for survival. Will it be Islam? Possibly. Will it be a revived Christianity? That is also quite possible - many Muslim countries were quite irreligious from the 50s through the 80s until the push back started happening. It can readily happen in the UK. Or will it be a completely new religion (or a non-native version of Christianity like Orthodox)? Also possible.
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/14/liberal-churches-in-decline-while-orthodox-ones-grow-says-study-of-protestants-in-canada/

    I do not see them being ethnically replaced though for a couple of reasons; 1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight. Possibly and equilibrium is at hand.

    Peace.

    I see a real possibility it will be orthodox – bit then Celtic Christianity was basically orthodox.

    But I see a real interest in orthodoxy in the Anglo countries.

    It may very well turn out Muslim as well – if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    In the 60s it looked like eastern religions might be the ones, but not anymore. Too foreign it seems – but I love them.

    • Replies: @Talha

    if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!
     
    Prof. David Cook of Rice university (who studies radical movements in the Muslim world) has stated that 90% of converts are going to the Sufis. Salafi-Wahhabi ethos is a desert ethos, not only the desert, but of the Najd area - it is not a blessed area, no movement that has come out of that area has been blessed.
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17534

    Peace.

  120. @Talha
    This article happened around mother's Day. Written by a Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi - if not Muslim, definitely one of our exports.

    Let's see what she has to say:
    "How Motherhood Made Me a Better Abortion Provider"

    Oh OK...

    "There is no Mother’s Day card to celebrate abortion. There are Mother’s Day cards to celebrate giving hugs, wiping noses, and kissing boo-boos—actions that are seen as the core of how a mother expresses love for her children. For my patients who were not parents, and did not want to be at that moment, or who never want to be a parent, I recognize their abortions as an act of intentional motherhood."

    Uhhhhh...'K...

    "As I finished the five-minute abortion procedure, we laughed about motherhood as her other child watched videos on my phone. We laughed about how demanding and obstinate toddlers can be, about the tribulations of potty training, and about how absolutely strange that “Daddy Finger” song is."

    Frickin' kids - frickin' parasites...
    https://www.glamour.com/story/how-motherhood-made-me-a-better-abortion-provider

    This is kebab...this is kebab on secularism...any questions?

    Peace.

    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia – the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    You're wasting your time, Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development. His world view is completely at odds with yours (which I share on this issue), there is no bridging this gap and never can be.
    , @Talha
    Look - this is all opinion being posited as fact.

    became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable
     
    To people like you; this is a subjective evaluation. Which is fine - but don't posit it as fact. Some people want to live in a place where they can easily have access to liquor or pick up chicks or...others do not.

    You write the word "normal"; yet Azerbaijan is starting to suffer from the same imploding population issue as Europe. It's not as bad, but that's because they are late to the party - how is this normal by an organic metric?

    religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.
     
    I like the religious parts just fine, don't like the radicalized ones.

    could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.
     
    Again, only someone completely enamored by (post)modernity will make these statements. Human beings are religious by nature, we have been for thousands of years. What we see today is not normal. How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?
    https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-alarming-rise-suicide

    Peace.
    , @songbird
    I've been wondering about the old "Stans" recently. Kazakh women seem much better looking than MENA women to me. And if the video is of Azerbaijan, I would say the same about Azerbaijanis

    The big question mark is what are the local average IQs? That is the question that I can't answer with confidence. I'm not 100% sure whether to trust the estimates or not, but at the same time, I think it would probably be an error to assume one can extrapolate from China, based on latitude. The local conditions and history are probably different.
    , @Svigor
    HBD. Kazakhs are Mongoloid, quite different from Arabs or Pakis. Mongoloids don't really do the zealot thing.
  121. @AaronB
    I don't think you are understanding my position if you think I am counseling naive complacency!

    What you do not understand is that "hard realities" are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    And platitudes are healthy - the cynicism and "subtlety" of an overripe civilization that has grown weary is not healthy.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete. Go read a Sir Walter Scott novel - I'm reading one now.

    But if you prefer despair, that is your choice.

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    You seem to regard stating the obvious as some kind of achievement. Obviously sometimes “hard realities” are “just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person”. More often, of course, “hard realities” are actually just that – hard realities.

    That there might be nothing meaningfully British or English left within a few generations is a hard reality that needs to be confronted in order to recognise the seriousness of the situation we are in. The idea that “it’ll be alright” because Britishness will continue come what may is precisely naive complacency (or cynical dishonesty, perhaps, depending on the motive for expressing it). It’s true of course that Britishness might survive anyway, and arguments can be made for that – but that’s very different from expressing it as an empty, faith-based platitudinous inevitability.

    Much of what I’ve seen you write here is criticism of “racists” or “white nationalists” for trying to address some of those hard realities, when in your opinion they should instead be taking the moral high ground by basically sticking their heads in the sand and trusting that all will be for the best if they just adopt your ideals of moral sanctimony instead of confronting the aforementioned hard realities.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete.

    Again, keep your childish recommendations for the children for whom they might be appropriate.

    Though such children would be well advised to pay attention to the hard realities as well as being appropriately enthusiastic. It’s usually best to learn from more experienced others rather than pay the price of naivety yourself too often.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    Yes, just as all people use platitudes when they have nothing really to say but want to appear superior.

    But doubtless the ones who had nothing more than platitudes tended to be especially the ones who ended up dying pointlessly or wasting their lives in effort without achievement. Meanwhile most of the actual work was done by those who had a bit more about them.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I don't think you are understanding me - and I suspect it's wilfull misunderstanding.

    Face up to the hard realities - fully admit them with the most brutal honesty you can summon. After that, abandon materialism, have faith in God - and do your best to create a better situation. Have faith that since the current system goes against - cosmic law or the divine will, nature or the Tao, or what have you - that it is fundamentally at odds with the unwritten laws of the universe, it is fragile and cannot survive. And you can help topple it. This is hardly complacency.

    But it isn't materialism. And if you cannot abandon that, you cannot understand me.

    With regard to racism, nowhere have I counseled putting our heads in the sand. Again, be brutally honest. But be moral - honestly point out black dysfunction, but emphasize the role of values in changing the situation. I'm fact, this is more honest. And avoid sneering contempt of the Sailor kind.

    But again, this requires a abandoning materialism.

    I am afraid this is all I can give you. I am sorry if you find them childish platitudes. You are an old man - perhaps you cannot make the leap.

    That is as it is, but the new generation cannot think like you, and if in my tiny small way, I can help it not to, in my tiny corner of the world, I will.
    , @Greasy William
    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.
  122. @Dmitry
    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia - the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlK-JErebE

    You’re wasting your time, Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development. His world view is completely at odds with yours (which I share on this issue), there is no bridging this gap and never can be.

    • Agree: Talha, AaronB
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Sure. But I believe Talha seems like a reasonable fellow, that knows that Azeris and Kazakhs are living better than the non-secular Muslims.

    That doesn't have to be something which challenges his personal religion as probably he understands that not all people want the same thing as him.

    But it is something he needs to explain - if he believes secularization is bad for Muslim societies.

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.
    , @utu

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.
     
    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies's actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser's regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel's intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.
     
    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel's greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.
     
    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel's hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the "spiritual teachers"? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed "spiritual teachers" and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the "gas attack" in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else's wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.
  123. @Ali Choudhury
    Yes, non-European immigration isn't that large compared to existing local populations. The natives simply don't believe any more that having and raising a family is the most important part of life. The incomers have the same attitude to family that was prevalent here two or three generations back when large families were much more common. A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement. As it stands, there will be may be half as many Italians in 50 years as there are now. Germany will have lost over 20% of its native population by 2060. Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don't want to procreate.

    Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    Well no, absent mass immigration a few decades of declining population is not a big deal, especially in a heavily populated island like the UK (or Japan, even more so). And absent mass immigration the elites that profit from it and are the main driver behind promoting it and suppressing resistance to it would be forced to take serious measures instead to promote indigenous reproduction, ultimately resolving the problem with hopefully a reasonably stable population.

  124. @AaronB
    Yes, Muslims, give up your religion. Uncle Dmitry is telling you - you will be nice and pleasant countries.

    Join us, Muslims, jooooin uuuuus, don't you want to be just like us? We have nice pleasant things like coffee, and sneakers...don't you like sneakers? And you won't have to wake up in the morning to deal with crying babies...you'll be freed from the messy necessity of having babies at all..

    Uncle Dmitry is here to give you a helping hand...don't you want to live nice, pleasant lives? Nice, pleasant lives....nice, pleasant lives...niiiiice pleeeeasant lives....

    Joooin uuuus, Muslims....

    Because life is, or can be, very good – as long as you are lucky not to suffer various misfortunes, physical or economic (both natural and manmade).

    Religion – particularly radical or politicized forms – is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Sometimes people just need to open walk outside in the sun. It’s healthier than falling victim of superstitious fantasies which were designed by people who often were highly inadequate, and probably would have trouble with basic arithmetic.

    That’s not to denounce all religion, or deny some myths and practices of religion can be helpful for people psychologically, usually when they do have various misfortunes in their life. Or that in some religions (for example, in Hinduism), there is not contained some interesting philosophical content.

    • Replies: @AaronB

    Religion – particularly radical or politicized forms – is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.
     
    Like, apparently, sneakers and coffee. Gotcha :)

    I agree life can be very good. But not how you live it. And life can be very good almost under any economic situation, and very bad amidst opulence - as we see.

    But you cannot see it. So go your way in peace - may your sneakers carry you safely to the coffee house of your dreams, and may you enjoy a warm and tasty mug of your favorite bean - and rejoice that you have reached the summit of felicity.
  125. @Talha

    I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.
     
    This is what I was talking about. The native Brits who survive this will not be post-Christian; that is a dead end.

    Brits were pagans, then Christian-Catholic, then Anglican, then post-Christian - there will be another mutation for survival. Will it be Islam? Possibly. Will it be a revived Christianity? That is also quite possible - many Muslim countries were quite irreligious from the 50s through the 80s until the push back started happening. It can readily happen in the UK. Or will it be a completely new religion (or a non-native version of Christianity like Orthodox)? Also possible.
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/14/liberal-churches-in-decline-while-orthodox-ones-grow-says-study-of-protestants-in-canada/

    I do not see them being ethnically replaced though for a couple of reasons; 1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight. Possibly and equilibrium is at hand.

    Peace.

    These are all possibilities, though by no means necessarily the most likely imo. What I object to is the assumption that they will necessarily come about.

    Still more, the implication that “white nationalists” should shut up about the hard realities they face because it’ll all work out alright in the end regardless.

    1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight

    From what I see around me the younger generations seem more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues, certainly on “racism”.

    And it does little for subsequent generations of the incomers to progressively approach norms of lower childbirth, if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.

    • Replies: @Talha

    “white nationalists” should shut up about the hard realities they face
     
    No, they shouldn't shut up - they should overcome and find others that are taking healthy steps to overcome and encouraging each other. There is a difference.

    more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues
     
    Yes, I get that - I didn't say there isn't a lot of deadwood to clear. And they are young - they can change views as they mature - didn't you?

    if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.
     
    Excellent point. I think there simply needs to be a party or movement that forms just on this one issue; stopping immigration - that's it. Nothing else. If it is an existential threat, then it needs to be priority number one. If moving on it is being blocked by something else, then that becomes existential threat number one until you get to your objective.

    Peace.
  126. @Dmitry
    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia - the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlK-JErebE

    Look – this is all opinion being posited as fact.

    became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable

    To people like you; this is a subjective evaluation. Which is fine – but don’t posit it as fact. Some people want to live in a place where they can easily have access to liquor or pick up chicks or…others do not.

    You write the word “normal”; yet Azerbaijan is starting to suffer from the same imploding population issue as Europe. It’s not as bad, but that’s because they are late to the party – how is this normal by an organic metric?

    religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    I like the religious parts just fine, don’t like the radicalized ones.

    could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    Again, only someone completely enamored by (post)modernity will make these statements. Human beings are religious by nature, we have been for thousands of years. What we see today is not normal. How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?
    https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-alarming-rise-suicide

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon

    How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?
     
    It's not and I agree with your other points.

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness. Sri Lanka for instance, has one of the highest (if not the highest anymore, I'm not sure) suicide rates in the world, and even in the north people you meet, rich or poor, are not particularly unhappy-- there is just a low threshold for the amount of unhappiness that makes one want to die.

    One would think the high rate was due to Tamils or to monks offing themselves for political reasons but I am told neither is the case.
  127. @Randal

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.
     
    You seem to regard stating the obvious as some kind of achievement. Obviously sometimes "hard realities" are "just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person". More often, of course, "hard realities" are actually just that - hard realities.

    That there might be nothing meaningfully British or English left within a few generations is a hard reality that needs to be confronted in order to recognise the seriousness of the situation we are in. The idea that "it'll be alright" because Britishness will continue come what may is precisely naive complacency (or cynical dishonesty, perhaps, depending on the motive for expressing it). It's true of course that Britishness might survive anyway, and arguments can be made for that - but that's very different from expressing it as an empty, faith-based platitudinous inevitability.

    Much of what I've seen you write here is criticism of "racists" or "white nationalists" for trying to address some of those hard realities, when in your opinion they should instead be taking the moral high ground by basically sticking their heads in the sand and trusting that all will be for the best if they just adopt your ideals of moral sanctimony instead of confronting the aforementioned hard realities.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete.
     
    Again, keep your childish recommendations for the children for whom they might be appropriate.

    Though such children would be well advised to pay attention to the hard realities as well as being appropriately enthusiastic. It's usually best to learn from more experienced others rather than pay the price of naivety yourself too often.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.
     
    Yes, just as all people use platitudes when they have nothing really to say but want to appear superior.

    But doubtless the ones who had nothing more than platitudes tended to be especially the ones who ended up dying pointlessly or wasting their lives in effort without achievement. Meanwhile most of the actual work was done by those who had a bit more about them.

    I don’t think you are understanding me – and I suspect it’s wilfull misunderstanding.

    Face up to the hard realities – fully admit them with the most brutal honesty you can summon. After that, abandon materialism, have faith in God – and do your best to create a better situation. Have faith that since the current system goes against – cosmic law or the divine will, nature or the Tao, or what have you – that it is fundamentally at odds with the unwritten laws of the universe, it is fragile and cannot survive. And you can help topple it. This is hardly complacency.

    But it isn’t materialism. And if you cannot abandon that, you cannot understand me.

    With regard to racism, nowhere have I counseled putting our heads in the sand. Again, be brutally honest. But be moral – honestly point out black dysfunction, but emphasize the role of values in changing the situation. I’m fact, this is more honest. And avoid sneering contempt of the Sailor kind.

    But again, this requires a abandoning materialism.

    I am afraid this is all I can give you. I am sorry if you find them childish platitudes. You are an old man – perhaps you cannot make the leap.

    That is as it is, but the new generation cannot think like you, and if in my tiny small way, I can help it not to, in my tiny corner of the world, I will.

    • Replies: @Randal

    With regard to racism, nowhere have I counseled putting our heads in the sand. Again, be brutally honest. But be moral – honestly point out black dysfunction, but emphasize the role of values in changing the situation. I’m fact, this is more honest. And avoid sneering contempt of the Sailor kind.

    But again, this requires a abandoning materialism.

    I am afraid this is all I can give you. I am sorry if you find them childish platitudes. You are an old man – perhaps you cannot make the leap.
     
    You squirt these platitudes around like squid ink to obscure your lack of any constructive response to specific points made. And it's particularly irritating when you pontificate about "materialism" to people who (certainly in my own case) went through that phase of simplistic generalism decades ago and grew out of it shortly afterwards.

    It's a bit like trying to have a conversation about the world with a group of people, while in the corner there's a middle-aged hippy smoking a fat spliff and contributing nothing of substance but just butting in to criticise people who say something politically incorrect: "Hey, man, chill a bit! Don't be mean, now. That's waycist! Not cool. What you need is love, man."

    As for Sailer (and he's not the first writer who expresses politically incorrect facts about race that I've noticed you attacking), the whole point about (that aspect of) what Sailer does is precisely that he says things that upset blacks and those who apologise for them, and what is vital about him saying it is precisely that these harsh truths and opinions are excluded from mainstream discourse, leaving society seriously unbalanced, with clear and dire policy consequences. Far from doing so with "sneering disrespect", in actual fact Sailer is pretty controlled and respectable in his discourse. For a balanced society we'd have him opining in the upmarket newspapers and journals to balance out the race deniers and lefty globalist fantasists, and more robust shit-slingers of the kind you falsely portray him as in the downmarket press to balance out the cruder identity lobbyists, and the antifa and pc morons.

    But hey, man, I get that if we could all just be a bit more respectful to each other that problem would be solved. Yeah, right.
  128. @Dmitry
    Because life is, or can be, very good - as long as you are lucky not to suffer various misfortunes, physical or economic (both natural and manmade).

    Religion - particularly radical or politicized forms - is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Sometimes people just need to open walk outside in the sun. It's healthier than falling victim of superstitious fantasies which were designed by people who often were highly inadequate, and probably would have trouble with basic arithmetic.

    That's not to denounce all religion, or deny some myths and practices of religion can be helpful for people psychologically, usually when they do have various misfortunes in their life. Or that in some religions (for example, in Hinduism), there is not contained some interesting philosophical content.

    Religion – particularly radical or politicized forms – is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Like, apparently, sneakers and coffee. Gotcha 🙂

    I agree life can be very good. But not how you live it. And life can be very good almost under any economic situation, and very bad amidst opulence – as we see.

    But you cannot see it. So go your way in peace – may your sneakers carry you safely to the coffee house of your dreams, and may you enjoy a warm and tasty mug of your favorite bean – and rejoice that you have reached the summit of felicity.

  129. @Randal
    These are all possibilities, though by no means necessarily the most likely imo. What I object to is the assumption that they will necessarily come about.

    Still more, the implication that "white nationalists" should shut up about the hard realities they face because it'll all work out alright in the end regardless.


    1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight
     
    From what I see around me the younger generations seem more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues, certainly on "racism".

    And it does little for subsequent generations of the incomers to progressively approach norms of lower childbirth, if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.

    “white nationalists” should shut up about the hard realities they face

    No, they shouldn’t shut up – they should overcome and find others that are taking healthy steps to overcome and encouraging each other. There is a difference.

    more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues

    Yes, I get that – I didn’t say there isn’t a lot of deadwood to clear. And they are young – they can change views as they mature – didn’t you?

    if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.

    Excellent point. I think there simply needs to be a party or movement that forms just on this one issue; stopping immigration – that’s it. Nothing else. If it is an existential threat, then it needs to be priority number one. If moving on it is being blocked by something else, then that becomes existential threat number one until you get to your objective.

    Peace.

  130. @Dmitry
    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia - the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlK-JErebE

    I’ve been wondering about the old “Stans” recently. Kazakh women seem much better looking than MENA women to me. And if the video is of Azerbaijan, I would say the same about Azerbaijanis

    The big question mark is what are the local average IQs? That is the question that I can’t answer with confidence. I’m not 100% sure whether to trust the estimates or not, but at the same time, I think it would probably be an error to assume one can extrapolate from China, based on latitude. The local conditions and history are probably different.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I can't answer your question.

    But I'll note Azerbaijan is statistically the most secularized Muslim country in the world. The question is - is it a coincidence that the high secularization from is correlated with the fact it has a more relaxed and adequate atmosphere?
  131. @AaronB
    I see a real possibility it will be orthodox - bit then Celtic Christianity was basically orthodox.

    But I see a real interest in orthodoxy in the Anglo countries.

    It may very well turn out Muslim as well - if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    In the 60s it looked like eastern religions might be the ones, but not anymore. Too foreign it seems - but I love them.

    if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    Prof. David Cook of Rice university (who studies radical movements in the Muslim world) has stated that 90% of converts are going to the Sufis. Salafi-Wahhabi ethos is a desert ethos, not only the desert, but of the Najd area – it is not a blessed area, no movement that has come out of that area has been blessed.
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17534

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    That is hopeful.

    I believe the beautiful mountains of Kashmir were a focal point for sufis, and it blended in very interesting ways with Hinduism to create an interesting local culture.

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.
  132. @Talha

    if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!
     
    Prof. David Cook of Rice university (who studies radical movements in the Muslim world) has stated that 90% of converts are going to the Sufis. Salafi-Wahhabi ethos is a desert ethos, not only the desert, but of the Najd area - it is not a blessed area, no movement that has come out of that area has been blessed.
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17534

    Peace.

    That is hopeful.

    I believe the beautiful mountains of Kashmir were a focal point for sufis, and it blended in very interesting ways with Hinduism to create an interesting local culture.

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.

    • Replies: @Talha

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.
     
    Not all of the desert is the same. The Najd is something else - for whatever reason, it lacks blessings. I have known people who have traveled to other desert areas (like the Sahel and parts of Yemen) and met very, very spiritual people there.

    If I recall, some of the early Christian mystics also retreated to the desert, no?

    But yes, the desert may give rise to things that grow there, like the cactus (with its own unique beauty), but the cactus will not grow in the soil of Britain.

    Peace.
  133. @Randal

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.
     
    You seem to regard stating the obvious as some kind of achievement. Obviously sometimes "hard realities" are "just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person". More often, of course, "hard realities" are actually just that - hard realities.

    That there might be nothing meaningfully British or English left within a few generations is a hard reality that needs to be confronted in order to recognise the seriousness of the situation we are in. The idea that "it'll be alright" because Britishness will continue come what may is precisely naive complacency (or cynical dishonesty, perhaps, depending on the motive for expressing it). It's true of course that Britishness might survive anyway, and arguments can be made for that - but that's very different from expressing it as an empty, faith-based platitudinous inevitability.

    Much of what I've seen you write here is criticism of "racists" or "white nationalists" for trying to address some of those hard realities, when in your opinion they should instead be taking the moral high ground by basically sticking their heads in the sand and trusting that all will be for the best if they just adopt your ideals of moral sanctimony instead of confronting the aforementioned hard realities.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete.
     
    Again, keep your childish recommendations for the children for whom they might be appropriate.

    Though such children would be well advised to pay attention to the hard realities as well as being appropriately enthusiastic. It's usually best to learn from more experienced others rather than pay the price of naivety yourself too often.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.
     
    Yes, just as all people use platitudes when they have nothing really to say but want to appear superior.

    But doubtless the ones who had nothing more than platitudes tended to be especially the ones who ended up dying pointlessly or wasting their lives in effort without achievement. Meanwhile most of the actual work was done by those who had a bit more about them.

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.

    • LOL: for-the-record
    • Replies: @Randal

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?
     
    The latter. Though certain categories do bring out the worst in me.

    Neocon warmongers

    "Antisemites" who insist on proving to everyone how morally superior they are to "racists" and vice versa.

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    But obviously you knew about that last one, which is why you wrote:


    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.
     
  134. @German_reader
    You're wasting your time, Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development. His world view is completely at odds with yours (which I share on this issue), there is no bridging this gap and never can be.

    Sure. But I believe Talha seems like a reasonable fellow, that knows that Azeris and Kazakhs are living better than the non-secular Muslims.

    That doesn’t have to be something which challenges his personal religion as probably he understands that not all people want the same thing as him.

    But it is something he needs to explain – if he believes secularization is bad for Muslim societies.

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    For you, but not for him (or AaronB for that matter).
  135. @AaronB
    That is hopeful.

    I believe the beautiful mountains of Kashmir were a focal point for sufis, and it blended in very interesting ways with Hinduism to create an interesting local culture.

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.

    Not all of the desert is the same. The Najd is something else – for whatever reason, it lacks blessings. I have known people who have traveled to other desert areas (like the Sahel and parts of Yemen) and met very, very spiritual people there.

    If I recall, some of the early Christian mystics also retreated to the desert, no?

    But yes, the desert may give rise to things that grow there, like the cactus (with its own unique beauty), but the cactus will not grow in the soil of Britain.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Very interesting. The Najd. An evil and ill fated place. Places have their "geniuus locii" as well - they have spirit. You conjure up images of a howling waste populated by djinn :) Fascinating!

    Yes, the "desert fathers" retreated to the desert - it was quite an extensive movement. Personally I am a fan of deserts, I find them quite compelling - but many people don't. I also love mountains.

    And for sure if Britain goes Muslim, it will be very different from that of Arabia!

  136. @Randal

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.
     
    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible.....

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting

    The Salazar option would be much better, I believe.

    • Replies: @Randal
    Hmm. Nice to avoid the desperate civil war, but what's the benefit other than that?
  137. @Talha

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.
     
    Not all of the desert is the same. The Najd is something else - for whatever reason, it lacks blessings. I have known people who have traveled to other desert areas (like the Sahel and parts of Yemen) and met very, very spiritual people there.

    If I recall, some of the early Christian mystics also retreated to the desert, no?

    But yes, the desert may give rise to things that grow there, like the cactus (with its own unique beauty), but the cactus will not grow in the soil of Britain.

    Peace.

    Very interesting. The Najd. An evil and ill fated place. Places have their “geniuus locii” as well – they have spirit. You conjure up images of a howling waste populated by djinn 🙂 Fascinating!

    Yes, the “desert fathers” retreated to the desert – it was quite an extensive movement. Personally I am a fan of deserts, I find them quite compelling – but many people don’t. I also love mountains.

    And for sure if Britain goes Muslim, it will be very different from that of Arabia!

    • Replies: @Talha
    If native Brits go Muslim, I will demand from them - as their brotherly duty to make up for the mistakes of their ancestors and remove the Najdis from power and quarantine them in the Najd.

    Having done that, they can then take over the Hijaz (Makkah and Madinah) as well as the oil fields and manage it all as a trust for the Ummah.

    Peace.
  138. @AaronB

    That’s a young man’s game.
     
    Indeed. I have come to the same conclusion. But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    I think it's obvious I'm not particularly concerned about yhe Muslim threat either. I was just using that as an example.

    Agree with all your other points really Jews, US, etc.

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don't counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.
     
    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be - everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    Absolutely nothing compared to the great social experiment on which they are now embarked, beyond the point of no return it would appear.

    I strongly recommend that you peruse (in the original sense) the following article:

    Unmaking England

    Will immigration demolish in decades a nation built over centuries?

    Over the last 18 years, Great Britain—more precisely, England, a distinction we’ll get to soon—has been in the grip of the most profound social transformation since the Industrial Revolution. Neither the upheavals attendant on the world wars nor the dislocations triggered by economic depressions nor the changes wrought by the attenuated breakdown of a social order rooted in a feudal past have so fundamentally altered England’s civilization as will the impact of mass immigration. . .

    But the mass immigration that Britain has experienced since 1997—the year Tony Blair’s New Labour government radically revised the immigration laws in a deliberate effort to transform Britain into a multicultural society—has had an effect wholly different from that of all previous political and social disruptions. Mass immigration hasn’t merely embellished, changed, or even assaulted the enduring, resilient national culture that Orwell adumbrated. Rather, by its very nature—by its inherent logic, and by the ideology, aspirations, and world-historical forces from which it springs and to which it gives expression—it perforce obliterates that culture. . .

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/unmaking-england/

  139. @songbird
    I've been wondering about the old "Stans" recently. Kazakh women seem much better looking than MENA women to me. And if the video is of Azerbaijan, I would say the same about Azerbaijanis

    The big question mark is what are the local average IQs? That is the question that I can't answer with confidence. I'm not 100% sure whether to trust the estimates or not, but at the same time, I think it would probably be an error to assume one can extrapolate from China, based on latitude. The local conditions and history are probably different.

    I can’t answer your question.

    But I’ll note Azerbaijan is statistically the most secularized Muslim country in the world. The question is – is it a coincidence that the high secularization from is correlated with the fact it has a more relaxed and adequate atmosphere?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    How the YouTube attention whores in Azerbaijan. Attention whore activity beside, will anyone tell me secularization is a 'curse' Muslim societies and it would better if every woman was there in hijab?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWW0t-jvF_I

  140. @Dmitry
    I can't answer your question.

    But I'll note Azerbaijan is statistically the most secularized Muslim country in the world. The question is - is it a coincidence that the high secularization from is correlated with the fact it has a more relaxed and adequate atmosphere?

    How the YouTube attention whores in Azerbaijan. Attention whore activity beside, will anyone tell me secularization is a ‘curse’ Muslim societies and it would better if every woman was there in hijab?

  141. @Dmitry
    Sure. But I believe Talha seems like a reasonable fellow, that knows that Azeris and Kazakhs are living better than the non-secular Muslims.

    That doesn't have to be something which challenges his personal religion as probably he understands that not all people want the same thing as him.

    But it is something he needs to explain - if he believes secularization is bad for Muslim societies.

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    For you, but not for him (or AaronB for that matter).

    • Replies: @Talha
    Exactly - it's simply a difference in values; incongruity of purpose, goals, even aesthetics...

    I live in the Midwest - there are a lot, I mean a lot of fat ladies wearing tight pants around here. I don't know why, but I'd rather not wish that upon the Muslim world. I'd much rather have our chubby aunties in modest dress.

    Material progress is great - totally support it - unless it distracts one from one's purpose in life.

    Now if the purpose in life is material progress itself - great - you can never have enough! #Winning

    Peace.
  142. @AaronB
    Very interesting. The Najd. An evil and ill fated place. Places have their "geniuus locii" as well - they have spirit. You conjure up images of a howling waste populated by djinn :) Fascinating!

    Yes, the "desert fathers" retreated to the desert - it was quite an extensive movement. Personally I am a fan of deserts, I find them quite compelling - but many people don't. I also love mountains.

    And for sure if Britain goes Muslim, it will be very different from that of Arabia!

    If native Brits go Muslim, I will demand from them – as their brotherly duty to make up for the mistakes of their ancestors and remove the Najdis from power and quarantine them in the Najd.

    Having done that, they can then take over the Hijaz (Makkah and Madinah) as well as the oil fields and manage it all as a trust for the Ummah.

    Peace.

  143. @Greasy William
    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    The latter. Though certain categories do bring out the worst in me.

    Neocon warmongers

    “Antisemites” who insist on proving to everyone how morally superior they are to “racists” and vice versa.

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    But obviously you knew about that last one, which is why you wrote:

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.

    • Replies: @Greasy William

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.
     
    Fine then. Let's talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.
  144. @for-the-record
    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting

    The Salazar option would be much better, I believe.

    Hmm. Nice to avoid the desperate civil war, but what’s the benefit other than that?

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    1. Franco-lite, rescued country from disorder, socialism, etc. "Republican" Portugal post-monarchy (1910) was an absolute disaster. Most of the advantages you would see in Franco are to be found in Salazar, at a far lower human cost.

    2. Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    3. Tremendous amount of infrastructure created -- roads, port modernisation, airports, bridges, etc.

    4. Arrived to a bankrupt country, left it with one of the world's largest gold reserves.
  145. @Randal

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?
     
    The latter. Though certain categories do bring out the worst in me.

    Neocon warmongers

    "Antisemites" who insist on proving to everyone how morally superior they are to "racists" and vice versa.

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    But obviously you knew about that last one, which is why you wrote:


    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.
     

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    Fine then. Let’s talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population
     
    Trump is going to "destroy" America's immigrant population?
    You're really a master troll (I mean that as a compliment).
    , @Randal
    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse. But the comment about platitudes was not directed at you - your drawback is that you waste too much time and effort "trolling". But that's just how you get your kicks, which in the end is what we are all here for.
    , @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    I believe that Trump can only stave off the inevitable. To 'save' the country, however, as you mention, is extremely difficult.

    The simple truth is that "demographics are destiny". Right now, non-Hispanic whites are right around 50% of the newborn births. And they've been below 60% since at least the 1990's. America's white demographics are artificially inflated by boomers and the silent generation. 50% born in America... citizens... for life. Barring ethnic cleansing, civil war, or secession, these 50% non-white will forever be a part of the USA.

    Now, the bright side. The one thing I agree with leftist on, is access to birth control, family planning, and abortion, if purely for demographic reasons. Progressive states such as Colorado are seeing massive reductions in black births, and Hispanic births are decreasing horrendously in California. New stats today showed that the black birthrate has declined by 9%, while Hispanic and Native are 18 and 27%, respectively. Asian birth rate is always low, just like in the mainland. Calling to 'so-cons'... white people already have access to abortion and birth control whether you like it or not... their birth rates will not go down materially.

    SO... I have a slight glimmer of hope for the USA... but that immigration really needs to be cut right now. Wall needs to be built immediately. And thirdly, but most importantly, white people need to start having more babies. Their numbers aren't terrible in the USA, but not nearly good enough. I do see potential in a white renaissance in the USA among the young generation. They get mocked for being "SJW" but in fact nobody mocks "SJWs" more than people under 25. Some young white people (men) are waking up. And I'm not talking about the slobbering 'alt-right' losers. At the very least young white men are more open to traditional values such as fatherhood. Baby steps.

    Self deportation is a real thing. Thousands of aliens are now coming to Canada from the USA. At a detriment to myself, of course, but Canada is a non-entity, and I would much rather preserve America for whites than Canada. If the USA did make a white comeback, Canada would potentially follow, although this country is totally off the rails in terms of immigration. It may be too late (it's not too late for USA or Britain).

    Time will tell, I give it 10%. Chances of a USA recovery are very slim, and are almost entirely contingent on one (buffoonish, flawed, and erratic) man, Donald J. Trump. It's unclear whether he is even aware of s uch demographic realities, or if he truly believes in 'civic nationalism'. Eastern Europe is not a 'saviour', though. If the USA becomes fully pozzed, they are toast.

    God bless you, Donald Trump, and the American people. You are my last hope. Not by choice, I think you are a tool, but nonetheless I have thrown my weight behind you. What other choice do we have? Dick Spencer? hahaha.
  146. @Greasy William

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.
     
    Fine then. Let's talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.

    Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population

    Trump is going to “destroy” America’s immigrant population?
    You’re really a master troll (I mean that as a compliment).

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    See my reply to him, it sort of details my thinking on what could possibly happen.
  147. @Randal
    Well, nationalism's complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most "nationalist" politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn "racists", "antisemites" and "homophobes", promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence - US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style "nationalists") anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

    American cultural pollution? LOL

    Americans put out lots of culture, yes. You Brits are under no obligation to consume any of it. But you do, whether it’s the Ford Fiesta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, McDonald’s or Facebook. This is your choice. Stop pretending like we’re forcing any of it on you, or even care at all whether you notice it.

    And since I mentioned Facebook, let the record show that it was a rather benign social media platform used by people to keep in touch with their relatives and exes. Then the Brits got hold of it and turned it into an abusive platform used by pedos sweating in their Barney costumes. Leading, of course, to the “panic button” (Britain’s sole “contribution” to the Internet in the last 20 years).

    Same goes for Twitter, btw. And now they’re banning people left and right (though mostly right) thanks to the great example set by your hate speech hounds.

    And when it comes to cultural pollution, no one outdoes the British. Your music sucks, your films are atrocious (“Dunkirk” lol) and did I mention hate speech laws? Why yes I did. Coming soon to a city near you, thanks to the Brits.

    • Replies: @Matra
    It must drive you "Irish" Americans crazy to know that your cousins in Ireland overwhelmingly prefer British music, TV shows, and sports to the alternatives on offer from your side of the Atlantic and for the most part don't have all these hang-ups about big, bad Anglos. That said, you are correct on this occasion. The cultural pollution produced by Britain these days is every bit as disgusting, degenerate, and naff as anything coming out of the USA.

    Philip Owen - If I'm not mistaken a prominent member of Plaid Cymru once sneered at the Welsh assembly for being 'too white', or words to that effect. So-called Celtic nationalist parties are a joke. Apparently, the Breton (also Celtic) nationalists are leftists too.
    , @inselaffen
    I don't think you understand the concept of 'cultural pollution'...
    unsurprisingly, your post is very... american in outlook/attitude.
    some kind of nationalist movement/revival is impossible with this kind of outlook. obsession with individualism and nonsense about individuals making 'rational choices' about what they consume... as if trends and fashions are some kind of mass rational choice.

    national survival implies a certain amount of groupthink. and that's only healthy.
  148. You’re really a master troll

    There is a difference between trolling and poetic license.

    if you have ever read my posts at lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com, you would be familiar with my phrase “destruction of the immigrant community”. One guy once said, and I’m paraphrasing here, “I’m in favor of securing the border and deporting illegals, but I keep seeing the phrase ‘destruction of the immigrant community’ here and I’m not sure that I can sign on for that.”

    But he can. You see, “destruction” does not necessarily mean outright genocide.

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people who hate Americans and want to displace them for the purposes of turning the US into another mestizo shit hole, as if the world is currently lacking in such countries.

    So while complete physical extermination of every piece of immigrant filth on our soil would be the most just and practical solution to the immigrant problem, that is not the path Trump or the people around him are planning to pursue. And yet Trump still has started on the path of “destroying the immigrant community”. How can that be?

    The American Immigrant “Harvest” Plan:

    1. Secure the border. Anyone attempting to cross goes to jail and has their kids taken away. Work with Mexico (::barf::) to ensure that the immigrants journey to the US is as dangerous as possible so that many of these vermin die on the way and thereby scare others in their shithole homelands into not making the trip. This is a work in progress but we have already started. Taking the kids away has caused great anguish to many immigrant parents, so much so that many have asked for the US to just give them their kids back and to let them go home.

    2. Deport more from the interior. Obama completely eliminated all deportations for non felons whereas Trump is outright trying to deport as many non felons as possible. It will take a few years to even get interior deportations up to Bush Jr. levels, but those levels were actually quite high and we are looking to at least double them down the road.

    3. Make life unlivable for immigrants by passing national E-verify, cutting off their welfare and making it impossible for them to get apartments. I will admit we haven’t moved forward on this yet, due to internal political problems within the Republican party, but we should be able to at least start this process as long as we hold the House and pick up a few Senate seats in the midterms.

    4. The final blow will come after Trump’s re-election: the elimination of legal immigration for non whites. You heard it here first: The Dems are going to nominate Kamala Harris and she will run on an explicit white genocide platform. Trump will win by 8 points and have over 60 seats in the Senate and will have a mandate to shut down legal immigration.

    5. With the pipeline of new shitskins shut down, the Latrinos will be assimilated into white America over the next 50 years. America will return to being 80+% white. Then the US will force it’s US vassals to get rid of their own immigrants.

    As you can see, the end result is no different than just killing all the immigrants. It just happens a little slower.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people
     
    I actually think it's the reverse, Mexicans are fine people with a colorful culture (e.g. Dia de los muertos) that's going to enrich the US. By contrast, the recent immigrants in Europe are mostly jihadis, rapists, drug dealers, organized beggars and believers in witchcraft who want to kill the white man and make white women their concubines.
    Anyway, your plan is interesting and mostly quite sensible. I doubt Trump will manage to do something like this though. On current trends he seems more likely to start another great Mideast war which will end in disaster for both the region and the US. His presidency will end in catastrophic failure and the backlash will lead to political dominance of the Democrats who will then push through an amnesty for illegal immigrants and increase legal immigration to unprecedented levels. The US will be a larger version of California, a de facto one party state. Trump might end up accelerating that outcome instead of delaying it, let alone reversing the process.
  149. @ 2cents to Talha:

    – The Saudis will either modernize or they will collapse. Anyway they will be less able to finance their intepretation of Islam. The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    – Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable (Morocco’s growth depending on good harvests.) or already can’t feed themselves (Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Algeria). Same as the Saudis: deep reform or collapse/civil war.

    – If collapse/war happens that means another million men march towards Europe and that means electoral wins for the far-right. That will shut the door permantly.

    -If deep reforms happens that will automatically leads to a slow secularization process.

    – Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries and will have the resources for soft-power. Just like SKorea currently with its’ KPop-wave. That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.

    – PAX CONFUCIUS. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Vietnamese will have less patience and have less qualms from bitchslapping any terror-supporting governments and/or letting people starve to death, who do not toe the new Asian-consensus-line.

    Arabs will not able to piggyback on their wealth like they could with the Euros. When the remittance-flow from EU dries up, it will be endgame.

    It is not the Euros, who will be squeezed but Arabs and SS-Africans. Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Cheers

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Agree with quite a bit. A few points...

    The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.
     
    They won't close down, they'll simply be under local management within the communities they exist in. They might have their name swapped out though, like the one I used to attend in LA long ago, the King Fahd Masjid.

    Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable
     
    Nothing new here.

    That will shut the door permantly.
     
    That's a good thing, right?

    Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries
     
    Yup - keep you eye on Malaysia now that PM Mahathir is back in power. He is a serious guy.

    That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.
     
    If you mean this will lead to less extremist interpretations of Islam, then I'm all for it.

    Either build modern substainable societies or die.
     
    Sure - survival of the fittest.

    Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births
     
    There you go - the law of averages working its way through - see, I don't know why people get so worked up some times.

    Peace.
    , @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.
     
    Pardon my french, but that is a whopping load of horse shit. 2.6M were born in 2015, compared to 2.5M in 2017. The fertility rate dropped from around 3.5 children per woman, to 3.1, staying well above replacement. Unless you have some crazy obscure source, I think you're pulling this out of tes fesses.

    PS Here is my source:http://www.capmas.gov.eg/pdf/EgyptInFigure/EgyptinFigures/Tables/English/vital/vital%20statistics/index.html
  150. Interesting bits on closely related languages, which contradict the person who suggestively passes himself off as some kind of legit myth buster:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_intelligibility

    Among other things, note what’s said about Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian relative to Polish.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=rZT7WomTHYKzggf8vZyIDA&q=polish+language+most+closely+related+to&oq=polish+language+most+closely+related+to&gs_l=psy-ab.12…814.16220.0.17037.41.41.0.0.0.0.114.2779.39j2.41.0..2..0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.34.2297…0j0i131k1j0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.RxCoyWIn0b8

    https://www.google.com/search?ei=35X7WpqDD8zAjwSX9proDQ&q=ukrainian+language+most+closely+related+to&oq=ukrainian+language+most+closely+related+to&gs_l=psy-ab.12…12343.14495.0.16681.10.9.0.0.0.0.569.1588.4j3j1j5-1.9.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0….0.VXNrv6BL-cw

    On par with what well versed others (not anonymous propagandists) have observed.

    Rude people who dishonor the national past of others with disinformation, aren’t in an ethically good position to criticize the manner of those reasonably disagreeing with them.

  151. @Greasy William

    You’re really a master troll
     
    There is a difference between trolling and poetic license.

    if you have ever read my posts at lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com, you would be familiar with my phrase "destruction of the immigrant community". One guy once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I'm in favor of securing the border and deporting illegals, but I keep seeing the phrase 'destruction of the immigrant community' here and I'm not sure that I can sign on for that."

    But he can. You see, "destruction" does not necessarily mean outright genocide.

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people who hate Americans and want to displace them for the purposes of turning the US into another mestizo shit hole, as if the world is currently lacking in such countries.

    So while complete physical extermination of every piece of immigrant filth on our soil would be the most just and practical solution to the immigrant problem, that is not the path Trump or the people around him are planning to pursue. And yet Trump still has started on the path of "destroying the immigrant community". How can that be?

    The American Immigrant "Harvest" Plan:

    1. Secure the border. Anyone attempting to cross goes to jail and has their kids taken away. Work with Mexico (::barf::) to ensure that the immigrants journey to the US is as dangerous as possible so that many of these vermin die on the way and thereby scare others in their shithole homelands into not making the trip. This is a work in progress but we have already started. Taking the kids away has caused great anguish to many immigrant parents, so much so that many have asked for the US to just give them their kids back and to let them go home.

    2. Deport more from the interior. Obama completely eliminated all deportations for non felons whereas Trump is outright trying to deport as many non felons as possible. It will take a few years to even get interior deportations up to Bush Jr. levels, but those levels were actually quite high and we are looking to at least double them down the road.

    3. Make life unlivable for immigrants by passing national E-verify, cutting off their welfare and making it impossible for them to get apartments. I will admit we haven't moved forward on this yet, due to internal political problems within the Republican party, but we should be able to at least start this process as long as we hold the House and pick up a few Senate seats in the midterms.

    4. The final blow will come after Trump's re-election: the elimination of legal immigration for non whites. You heard it here first: The Dems are going to nominate Kamala Harris and she will run on an explicit white genocide platform. Trump will win by 8 points and have over 60 seats in the Senate and will have a mandate to shut down legal immigration.

    5. With the pipeline of new shitskins shut down, the Latrinos will be assimilated into white America over the next 50 years. America will return to being 80+% white. Then the US will force it's US vassals to get rid of their own immigrants.

    As you can see, the end result is no different than just killing all the immigrants. It just happens a little slower.

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people

    I actually think it’s the reverse, Mexicans are fine people with a colorful culture (e.g. Dia de los muertos) that’s going to enrich the US. By contrast, the recent immigrants in Europe are mostly jihadis, rapists, drug dealers, organized beggars and believers in witchcraft who want to kill the white man and make white women their concubines.
    Anyway, your plan is interesting and mostly quite sensible. I doubt Trump will manage to do something like this though. On current trends he seems more likely to start another great Mideast war which will end in disaster for both the region and the US. His presidency will end in catastrophic failure and the backlash will lead to political dominance of the Democrats who will then push through an amnesty for illegal immigrants and increase legal immigration to unprecedented levels. The US will be a larger version of California, a de facto one party state. Trump might end up accelerating that outcome instead of delaying it, let alone reversing the process.

  152. @Talha

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded
     
    That's what I'm talking about. It's like how I've come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it - have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don't know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren't even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who'll take the bullets because:
    "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind - that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve." (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn't made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids…“Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord..”

    Why yes, if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton, I’m sure that it will be the most populous in a world of infinite welfare state. Doubly so if it encourages them to die in the name of said ideology to further spread it.

    I am, on the other hand, profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars. Or producing anything at all beyond more of itself. While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc. None of that is encouraged by maximizing R strategy fertility.

    I swear this thread has gone dumb some time ago.

    • Replies: @Talha

    if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton
     
    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren't having enough kids, but themselves don't feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    If one feels population numbers and fertility are at an optimum level, great - no problems there!

    profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars
     
    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal. This is a great starting point. From here you can form value judgments on individuals and societies (cultures, branches of knowledge, tools, etc.) that help or do not to attain said goal. This is a purpose-driven value system - bravo!

    While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc.
     
    Totally agree!

    Peace.
  153. @AaronB
    He wasn't being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It's almost like it's lacking a certain "something", but I can't quite put my finger on it...

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren't a protected or privileged class, so I really don't think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it's rather typical of you to think it's the determining factor :) When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers....

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life...

    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don’t.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don’t have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don’t really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in – a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don’t have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation – particularly traditional and obscurantist strains – tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand.
     
    He's a useful idiot for Muslims. Unfortunately not an uncommon type among Westerners of spiritual inclinations.
    Good points in your post, I agree completely (also with Daniel Chieh and Another German reader...lauding Muslims and other 3rd worlders for their irresponsible breeding is very misguided, given that quite a few of those societies might eventually face mass death if the West doesn't step in to prevent it).
    , @Mitleser

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class.
     
    https://twitter.com/OrwellNGoode/status/996085028969992198
    , @AaronB
    I'm against the Enlightenment and for "obscurantism".

    I think modernity is a mistake - I want us to go "backwards".

    As such, I view Islam - in some of its historical versions - as far better suited to healthy human living than the modern world. The modern world is perhaps the worst society that ever existed.

    Now, I'm not saying you have to like Islam - there are many other religions to choose from.
  154. @Hyperborean
    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don't.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don't have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don't really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don't understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in - a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don't have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation - particularly traditional and obscurantist strains - tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand.

    He’s a useful idiot for Muslims. Unfortunately not an uncommon type among Westerners of spiritual inclinations.
    Good points in your post, I agree completely (also with Daniel Chieh and Another German reader…lauding Muslims and other 3rd worlders for their irresponsible breeding is very misguided, given that quite a few of those societies might eventually face mass death if the West doesn’t step in to prevent it).

    • Replies: @Jayce
    Turns out the real horseshoe theory is actually neoliberal policymakers and faux-traditionalists both constantly selling white people on how awesome Islam is and how much we need it.
  155. @Anatoly Karlin
    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.

    What’s a Based person?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Essentially don't be a cuck. If you have to ask, they are not based. You'll know it when you see it.
  156. @Daniel Chieh

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids...“Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.."
     
    Why yes, if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton, I'm sure that it will be the most populous in a world of infinite welfare state. Doubly so if it encourages them to die in the name of said ideology to further spread it.

    I am, on the other hand, profoundly skeptical that it'll get us any closer to colonizing the stars. Or producing anything at all beyond more of itself. While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc. None of that is encouraged by maximizing R strategy fertility.

    I swear this thread has gone dumb some time ago.

    if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    If one feels population numbers and fertility are at an optimum level, great – no problems there!

    profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal. This is a great starting point. From here you can form value judgments on individuals and societies (cultures, branches of knowledge, tools, etc.) that help or do not to attain said goal. This is a purpose-driven value system – bravo!

    While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc.

    Totally agree!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

     

    The problem is not as much as not having enough kids. But not having enough kids, relative to lower quality or socially less civilized populations (however subjectively defined) having more kids, while being able to access same territory.

    If all populations in an equally accessed territory had less kids at the same time, that would be be relevant only to the dependency ratio - i.e. only a getting worse, ceteris paribus, problem for dependency ratio at a certain time.

    If people have less kids in one country, but combined with a strong immigration barrier (like Japan), preventing access to the territory from lower quality or less civilized populations, then there is only the dependency ratio problem .

    But there is not the problem of lower quality people, or less civilized culture people, having more kids, while accessing the same territory.

    The nightmare combination for a country feels more like:
    1. Higher quality or more civilized populations have less kids.
    2. Lower quality or uncivilized (however subjectively defined) populations have more kids.
    3. Lower quality or uncivilized populations having access to the same territory as higher quality or more civilized populations.

    Japan is not experiencing a nightmare situation, because it does not have 3. It will have problem with dependency ratio increasing, but this is not so called 'demographic nightmare scenario'.

    But there are a number of countries, whether we talk about Russia, UK, France, Israel, India, Sweden - where Islamic birthrates are higher than the birthrates of all other groups, while at the same time accessing the same territory as the non-Islamic populations.

    Now in Talha view the Islamic populations may be more civilized or higher quality populations (which might be a fair viewpoint and even true from some religious perspective). But from the point of view of people who view the categories the other way around - it can be seen the reason the differential birthrates are seen as a problem (and it's only when combined with weak immigration policies).
    , @AaronB

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal.

     

    Even though I have profound disagreements with Daniel Chieh and Anatoly Karlin, I respect them because they are both obviously religious people.

    Daniel wants to colonize the stars, and Anatoly is interested in transhunanusm.

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    The hopelessness of most of the commenters here on the other hand is frightening. Randal is actually getting angry at me for trying to inject him with a bit of morale, and is ferociously trying to demoralize me!

    I was musing about this last night - instead of thanking me for trying to raise his morale, he tries to lower my morale.

    When the patient resists the cure you know the disease is very advanced.
  157. @Another German Reader
    @ 2cents to Talha:

    - The Saudis will either modernize or they will collapse. Anyway they will be less able to finance their intepretation of Islam. The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    - Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable (Morocco's growth depending on good harvests.) or already can't feed themselves (Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Algeria). Same as the Saudis: deep reform or collapse/civil war.

    - If collapse/war happens that means another million men march towards Europe and that means electoral wins for the far-right. That will shut the door permantly.

    -If deep reforms happens that will automatically leads to a slow secularization process.

    - Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries and will have the resources for soft-power. Just like SKorea currently with its' KPop-wave. That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.


    - PAX CONFUCIUS. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Vietnamese will have less patience and have less qualms from bitchslapping any terror-supporting governments and/or letting people starve to death, who do not toe the new Asian-consensus-line.

    Arabs will not able to piggyback on their wealth like they could with the Euros. When the remittance-flow from EU dries up, it will be endgame.

    It is not the Euros, who will be squeezed but Arabs and SS-Africans. Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Cheers

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

    Agree with quite a bit. A few points…

    The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    They won’t close down, they’ll simply be under local management within the communities they exist in. They might have their name swapped out though, like the one I used to attend in LA long ago, the King Fahd Masjid.

    Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable

    Nothing new here.

    That will shut the door permantly.

    That’s a good thing, right?

    Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries

    Yup – keep you eye on Malaysia now that PM Mahathir is back in power. He is a serious guy.

    That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.

    If you mean this will lead to less extremist interpretations of Islam, then I’m all for it.

    Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Sure – survival of the fittest.

    Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births

    There you go – the law of averages working its way through – see, I don’t know why people get so worked up some times.

    Peace.

  158. utu says:
    @German_reader
    You're wasting your time, Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development. His world view is completely at odds with yours (which I share on this issue), there is no bridging this gap and never can be.

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.

    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies’s actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser’s regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of “regular consultations” between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel’s intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.

    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel’s greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.

    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel’s hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the “spiritual teachers”? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed “spiritual teachers” and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the “gas attack” in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

    • Replies: @Greasy William

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.
     
    But Islamophobia has been around for ages. Long before Islamism appeared. Even today in Syria you are seeing some of the more hardcore Assadist types starting to regard Islam itself, as opposed to just Islamism, as the enemy.

    ...

    re Talha: Talha is religious but not an Islamist. He hates Islamists more than anyone on this board because for him it's personal. Given Talha's education level, I'm pretty sure that the Islamic world's problems aren't the result there being too many Talhas.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don't actually believe it.

    ...

    re Israel and Islamism: you have every right to have an opinion on Israeli motives, but when you refuse to learn about Israeli politics you will come up with theories that just don't make any sense.

    Anybody who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that secular Israel was horrified when Morsi won. It was the Israeli far right that supported Morsi but I would say 95%+ of Israeli Jews supported Mubarak and were happy when Morsi was overthrown.

    I don't know anything about the genesis of Hamas, but I do know that in 2008 the Israeli right was very opposed to the war in Gaza because they were terrified that Hamas would be toppled and the PLO put back in charge there. I remember how I myself was cheering Hamas on at the time because I was certain that the IDF intended to topple Hamas. In contrast, the Israeli left was gung ho about the war precisely because they wanted to install Fatah in Gaza and they repeatedly pushed this idea on Israeli TV.

    And today it is generally understood that the number 1 job of the IDF in Judea and Samaria (what you call The West Bank) is keeping Abu Mazen in power. Similarly, I think that even you would concede that Israel would prefer a totally secular Lebanon to one where the state is essentially under Hezbollah control.

    Your thesis comes down to "Israel is run by people who have the same worldview as Greasy William". But that simply isn't so and any Israeli would laugh at such a concept. You can believe whatever you want, but you are only lying to yourself.
    , @Randal

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia.
     
    No, I don't think so. You are just incorrect in your characterisations here, which imo reflects your own bias, because you are perfectly capable of better understanding.

    I've noted before that Unz inevitably attracts people whose views are usually excluded from free discussion in public discourse, and in the societies of the modern US sphere two of the main groups in that category are "antisemites" and "racists" (I use both terms here descriptively, as shorthand, without any negative connotation and with due recognition of their inherently dishonest and intentionally flexible definitions). I sympathise with both groups, and recognise that both groups have important things to say that are ordinarily suppressed with damaging consequences for out societies, though I am not fully on board with the more extreme positions of either

    Your bias is that you sit at the more extreme "anti-Semite" end of that spectrum while broadly accepting the mainstream critique of "racism", and you often seem unduly concerned to distance yourself from the latter [again, see my caveats above about my use of those terms]. I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don't share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism. My own bias is that I'm a social conservative who regards genuine religious belief and discipline as broadly a good thing.

    Talha as far as I can tell is an islamist (depending how you define that term) but not a jihadist. In the sense that he is the equivalent of a Christian who takes Christianity seriously as a guide to life (before modern Christianity degenerated into its modern form of a mostly socially radical bunch of leftist unbelievers play-acting at belief and administering a collection of "moralistic therapeutic deists"). While in the past Israel and the forces behind it certainly encouraged islamists, and they certainly encourage jihadists today, that was mainly directed at undermining the PLO and other rivals of the time, and it is only one small aspect of the game in the ME. There are much wider reasons why muslim countries would be better run by actual muslims (though not jihadists) - the exemplars here, albeit Shiite, are Hezbollah and Iran. They manage to be muslim without being jihadist, and to stand up to Israel without being reduced to submissive collaboration (occasional cooperation when necessary is not the same) like secular Egypt and the Gulf sunni despots, and notwithstanding your dismissive comments about Iran being "delegitimised" they do in fact play a hugely constructive and vital role in the ME. Without them, US dominance of the region would be pretty much complete. The Muslim Brotherhood could certainly have evolved into a sunni equivalent in Egypt, though it was complicated by its involvement in Libya and Syria in which it was de facto in alliance with the jihadists encouraged by Israel, the Gulf despots and the US.

    This is why you are simply incorrect in your idea of me as an "unreflective islamophobe", since I am not actually opposed to islam per se, just to its presence in force in my own country (as a result of mass immigration), and by extension its increasing presence in other post-Christian countries in Europe and America, and to its jihadist manifestations.

    As for German_Reader, he's more than capable of speaking for himself, but he's certainly considerably more hostile to islam than I am. Though even he would probably defy classification as an "unreflective islamophobe" given the kinds of genuine haters of islam that there are out there who qualify much better for than description.

    Again, your problem seems to be with the reluctance to accept your position that the only issue of significance in relation to islam is the involvement of Israel and jewish lobbies in using it to foment trouble. but islam is infinitely bigger than that, regardless of the undoubted truth in your allegations against Israel and the jewish lobbies.

    We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them
     
    There is no reason to want to "secularize" islam unless your goal is securing US (and therefore Israeli) dominance. Iran operates fine (despite facing continuous economic aggression, active subversion and military threats by the world's only superpower and its regional proxies) without secularisation, which essentially means the removal of anything of any real meaning from the religion, and leaving it a mere vehicle for political exploitation and in many cases for social radicalism, as organised secularised Christianity became some time ago in the US sphere.

    As for the idea that it is only the existence of "islamophobes" that prevents your desired reconstruction of Islam, this would appear to be a complete fantasy. Indeed if there is an islamophobe here, it looks to be you rather than I.
    , @German_reader

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.
     
    Islamophobia is a nonsense term, distrusting and disliking Muslims is completely rational and in Europe at least often based on real-life encounters with actually existing Muslims.
    That being said, I actually agree quite a bit with some of your points. It's definitely true that US policy since the 1940s has had the perverse effect of empowering and aiding the very worst reactionary and anti-Western forces in the Mideast. Israel has also played its role in this (as far as I know, your example of Israel initially aiding Hamas as a counterweight against the PLO is basically correct).
    I don't think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies. Such movements have deep roots in the Islamic world, going back at least to the 18th century when it first became clear that Muslims were falling behind the West and coming under the rule of Europeans. It's a natural reaction for people who are convinced of the absolute truth of their own religion and proud of their past conquests, but are confronted with the material superiority of the West.
  159. 3 Dem incumbents lost primary to Berniecrat insurgents tonight. This is a huge defeat for the DNC and shows that nothing can stop the Corbynization of the Democratic party.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    The demographics of the US means it won't matter in a few years, might delay the inevitable one party rule for a while though.

    Loving how trashy and dysfunctional the Markles are, her siblings really don't have much good to say about her, typical Hollywood type.
    , @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    The global elite are scared of the Bernie-tards, don't you forget it. That's why they are making such a push on social justice issues - they need to satisfy the brain dead leftists.
  160. @for-the-record
    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    For you, but not for him (or AaronB for that matter).

    Exactly – it’s simply a difference in values; incongruity of purpose, goals, even aesthetics…

    I live in the Midwest – there are a lot, I mean a lot of fat ladies wearing tight pants around here. I don’t know why, but I’d rather not wish that upon the Muslim world. I’d much rather have our chubby aunties in modest dress.

    Material progress is great – totally support it – unless it distracts one from one’s purpose in life.

    Now if the purpose in life is material progress itself – great – you can never have enough! #Winning

    Peace.

  161. @Talha

    if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton
     
    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren't having enough kids, but themselves don't feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    If one feels population numbers and fertility are at an optimum level, great - no problems there!

    profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars
     
    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal. This is a great starting point. From here you can form value judgments on individuals and societies (cultures, branches of knowledge, tools, etc.) that help or do not to attain said goal. This is a purpose-driven value system - bravo!

    While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc.
     
    Totally agree!

    Peace.

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    The problem is not as much as not having enough kids. But not having enough kids, relative to lower quality or socially less civilized populations (however subjectively defined) having more kids, while being able to access same territory.

    If all populations in an equally accessed territory had less kids at the same time, that would be be relevant only to the dependency ratio – i.e. only a getting worse, ceteris paribus, problem for dependency ratio at a certain time.

    If people have less kids in one country, but combined with a strong immigration barrier (like Japan), preventing access to the territory from lower quality or less civilized populations, then there is only the dependency ratio problem .

    But there is not the problem of lower quality people, or less civilized culture people, having more kids, while accessing the same territory.

    The nightmare combination for a country feels more like:
    1. Higher quality or more civilized populations have less kids.
    2. Lower quality or uncivilized (however subjectively defined) populations have more kids.
    3. Lower quality or uncivilized populations having access to the same territory as higher quality or more civilized populations.

    Japan is not experiencing a nightmare situation, because it does not have 3. It will have problem with dependency ratio increasing, but this is not so called ‘demographic nightmare scenario’.

    But there are a number of countries, whether we talk about Russia, UK, France, Israel, India, Sweden – where Islamic birthrates are higher than the birthrates of all other groups, while at the same time accessing the same territory as the non-Islamic populations.

    Now in Talha view the Islamic populations may be more civilized or higher quality populations (which might be a fair viewpoint and even true from some religious perspective). But from the point of view of people who view the categories the other way around – it can be seen the reason the differential birthrates are seen as a problem (and it’s only when combined with weak immigration policies).

    • Replies: @Talha
    I totally get the nightmare scenario of #3. I have no problems with non-Muslim countries shutting down immigration.

    weak immigration policies
     
    I have no problem with non-Muslim countries deciding to ship Muslims back to countries of origin* either (I don't really expect much from people that don't have some kind of transcendental value system they hold themselves to - anything goes) - whatever the majority says. Just do it all legally, that's not much to ask - right?

    Peace.

    *Note: As I've stated before - you will be doing a good number of them a huge favor since they are misbehaving and losing their souls in the West.
  162. @CM
    Let's be honest, most of them would happily deny other people their free speech if given the power. It's a bit like that Katie Hopkins woman that's always preaching about free speech, but unironically supports censoring and deleting accounts (on Twitter and eBay) that are supportive of Palestinian freedom, while at the same time condemning Twitter for deleting Alt-Right accounts. They're just angry because it's mostly their side that's getting muzzled by Twitter or the government, but they'd happily do it to the other side and they're not embarassed to admit that.

    Nothing to be surprised.

  163. @utu

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.
     
    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies's actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser's regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel's intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.
     
    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel's greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.
     
    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel's hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the "spiritual teachers"? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed "spiritual teachers" and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the "gas attack" in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else's wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.

    But Islamophobia has been around for ages. Long before Islamism appeared. Even today in Syria you are seeing some of the more hardcore Assadist types starting to regard Islam itself, as opposed to just Islamism, as the enemy.

    re Talha: Talha is religious but not an Islamist. He hates Islamists more than anyone on this board because for him it’s personal. Given Talha’s education level, I’m pretty sure that the Islamic world’s problems aren’t the result there being too many Talhas.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don’t actually believe it.

    re Israel and Islamism: you have every right to have an opinion on Israeli motives, but when you refuse to learn about Israeli politics you will come up with theories that just don’t make any sense.

    Anybody who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that secular Israel was horrified when Morsi won. It was the Israeli far right that supported Morsi but I would say 95%+ of Israeli Jews supported Mubarak and were happy when Morsi was overthrown.

    I don’t know anything about the genesis of Hamas, but I do know that in 2008 the Israeli right was very opposed to the war in Gaza because they were terrified that Hamas would be toppled and the PLO put back in charge there. I remember how I myself was cheering Hamas on at the time because I was certain that the IDF intended to topple Hamas. In contrast, the Israeli left was gung ho about the war precisely because they wanted to install Fatah in Gaza and they repeatedly pushed this idea on Israeli TV.

    And today it is generally understood that the number 1 job of the IDF in Judea and Samaria (what you call The West Bank) is keeping Abu Mazen in power. Similarly, I think that even you would concede that Israel would prefer a totally secular Lebanon to one where the state is essentially under Hezbollah control.

    Your thesis comes down to “Israel is run by people who have the same worldview as Greasy William”. But that simply isn’t so and any Israeli would laugh at such a concept. You can believe whatever you want, but you are only lying to yourself.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don’t actually believe it.

     

    Although utu can confirm or disprove my theory, I suspect that utu is a nominal Muslim himself (or has personal ties with nominal Muslims) given his obsession with getting Russia to start a nuclear war with Israel and the long passage he wrote that has sections that seem quite personal:

    Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.
     

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.
     
    , @Talha
    Hey Greasy,

    Randal is right - I'd probably be labeled some sort of Islamist (it's not our native term - so whatever). Islamist seems to range from anyone like the returned PM of Malaysia to Erdogan to Morsi to Daesh. Very difficult for me to keep track since I don't really care what box others put me in - we have our own self-referential indigenous definitions.

    But you are right in the sense that I can't stand extremist groups like Daesh and other takfiri groups like them; they have killed thousands upon thousands of Muslims, dragged the name of the religion through the mud, killed innocents in non-Muslim countries which then serves to be a catalyst for more attacks on the Muslim world - I can't think of a single positive that has come out of them.

    But, yes; I take Islam very seriously - in fact I take the institution of religion very seriously. In a world that thinks religion is a hobby, a relic, or an annoyance at best, this is understandably thought of as quaint, if not insane:
    "Make remembrance of God until the people call you mad (majnoon)." - Musnad of Imam Ahmad (ra)

    Peace.
  164. @Greasy William

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.
     
    But Islamophobia has been around for ages. Long before Islamism appeared. Even today in Syria you are seeing some of the more hardcore Assadist types starting to regard Islam itself, as opposed to just Islamism, as the enemy.

    ...

    re Talha: Talha is religious but not an Islamist. He hates Islamists more than anyone on this board because for him it's personal. Given Talha's education level, I'm pretty sure that the Islamic world's problems aren't the result there being too many Talhas.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don't actually believe it.

    ...

    re Israel and Islamism: you have every right to have an opinion on Israeli motives, but when you refuse to learn about Israeli politics you will come up with theories that just don't make any sense.

    Anybody who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that secular Israel was horrified when Morsi won. It was the Israeli far right that supported Morsi but I would say 95%+ of Israeli Jews supported Mubarak and were happy when Morsi was overthrown.

    I don't know anything about the genesis of Hamas, but I do know that in 2008 the Israeli right was very opposed to the war in Gaza because they were terrified that Hamas would be toppled and the PLO put back in charge there. I remember how I myself was cheering Hamas on at the time because I was certain that the IDF intended to topple Hamas. In contrast, the Israeli left was gung ho about the war precisely because they wanted to install Fatah in Gaza and they repeatedly pushed this idea on Israeli TV.

    And today it is generally understood that the number 1 job of the IDF in Judea and Samaria (what you call The West Bank) is keeping Abu Mazen in power. Similarly, I think that even you would concede that Israel would prefer a totally secular Lebanon to one where the state is essentially under Hezbollah control.

    Your thesis comes down to "Israel is run by people who have the same worldview as Greasy William". But that simply isn't so and any Israeli would laugh at such a concept. You can believe whatever you want, but you are only lying to yourself.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don’t actually believe it.

    Although utu can confirm or disprove my theory, I suspect that utu is a nominal Muslim himself (or has personal ties with nominal Muslims) given his obsession with getting Russia to start a nuclear war with Israel and the long passage he wrote that has sections that seem quite personal:

    Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

  165. @Hyperborean
    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don't.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don't have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don't really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don't understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in - a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don't have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation - particularly traditional and obscurantist strains - tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Even more humiliating considering the Church of England's status as the official church of the monarchy and the state church of England.
  166. @Mitleser

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class.
     
    https://twitter.com/OrwellNGoode/status/996085028969992198

    Even more humiliating considering the Church of England’s status as the official church of the monarchy and the state church of England.

  167. @Greasy William

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.
     
    Fine then. Let's talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.

    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse. But the comment about platitudes was not directed at you – your drawback is that you waste too much time and effort “trolling”. But that’s just how you get your kicks, which in the end is what we are all here for.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse.
     
    Thank you!

    I will steal this piece of wit, sir(though I'll rewrite it somewhat as "substance, not the result of substance abuse.")
  168. @AaronB
    And you don't understand human nature if you think it is motivated primarily by materialistic factors.

    History shows countless examples of rich wealthy people with comfortable lives chucking it all for a cause

    In fact Muslim terrorists are known to come from the middle and upper middle class, and it is a lie that they are motivated by poverty and hardship.

    Snap out of it. Break the spell.

    You still don’t get it. Had the police started a true massacre, killing hundreds of the participants in the rally, this might motivate tens of thousands to engage in violence or terrorism. (Which the Palestinians are doing.) But instead it’s just a few people losing their jobs.

    I have heard of many people enthusiastically sacrificing their lives in battle. Not many people have enthusiastically paid their taxes.

    The situation is so bad because it’s quite comfortable on the individual level.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I don't think that's correct.

    It's not because people are so comfortable - people are unwilling to sacrifice their comfort because they have no higher values.

    So you have it backwards - people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can't give it up.
  169. @utu

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.
     
    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies's actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser's regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel's intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.
     
    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel's greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.
     
    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel's hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the "spiritual teachers"? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed "spiritual teachers" and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the "gas attack" in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else's wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia.

    No, I don’t think so. You are just incorrect in your characterisations here, which imo reflects your own bias, because you are perfectly capable of better understanding.

    I’ve noted before that Unz inevitably attracts people whose views are usually excluded from free discussion in public discourse, and in the societies of the modern US sphere two of the main groups in that category are “antisemites” and “racists” (I use both terms here descriptively, as shorthand, without any negative connotation and with due recognition of their inherently dishonest and intentionally flexible definitions). I sympathise with both groups, and recognise that both groups have important things to say that are ordinarily suppressed with damaging consequences for out societies, though I am not fully on board with the more extreme positions of either

    Your bias is that you sit at the more extreme “anti-Semite” end of that spectrum while broadly accepting the mainstream critique of “racism”, and you often seem unduly concerned to distance yourself from the latter [again, see my caveats above about my use of those terms]. I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don’t share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism. My own bias is that I’m a social conservative who regards genuine religious belief and discipline as broadly a good thing.

    Talha as far as I can tell is an islamist (depending how you define that term) but not a jihadist. In the sense that he is the equivalent of a Christian who takes Christianity seriously as a guide to life (before modern Christianity degenerated into its modern form of a mostly socially radical bunch of leftist unbelievers play-acting at belief and administering a collection of “moralistic therapeutic deists”). While in the past Israel and the forces behind it certainly encouraged islamists, and they certainly encourage jihadists today, that was mainly directed at undermining the PLO and other rivals of the time, and it is only one small aspect of the game in the ME. There are much wider reasons why muslim countries would be better run by actual muslims (though not jihadists) – the exemplars here, albeit Shiite, are Hezbollah and Iran. They manage to be muslim without being jihadist, and to stand up to Israel without being reduced to submissive collaboration (occasional cooperation when necessary is not the same) like secular Egypt and the Gulf sunni despots, and notwithstanding your dismissive comments about Iran being “delegitimised” they do in fact play a hugely constructive and vital role in the ME. Without them, US dominance of the region would be pretty much complete. The Muslim Brotherhood could certainly have evolved into a sunni equivalent in Egypt, though it was complicated by its involvement in Libya and Syria in which it was de facto in alliance with the jihadists encouraged by Israel, the Gulf despots and the US.

    This is why you are simply incorrect in your idea of me as an “unreflective islamophobe”, since I am not actually opposed to islam per se, just to its presence in force in my own country (as a result of mass immigration), and by extension its increasing presence in other post-Christian countries in Europe and America, and to its jihadist manifestations.

    As for German_Reader, he’s more than capable of speaking for himself, but he’s certainly considerably more hostile to islam than I am. Though even he would probably defy classification as an “unreflective islamophobe” given the kinds of genuine haters of islam that there are out there who qualify much better for than description.

    Again, your problem seems to be with the reluctance to accept your position that the only issue of significance in relation to islam is the involvement of Israel and jewish lobbies in using it to foment trouble. but islam is infinitely bigger than that, regardless of the undoubted truth in your allegations against Israel and the jewish lobbies.

    We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them

    There is no reason to want to “secularize” islam unless your goal is securing US (and therefore Israeli) dominance. Iran operates fine (despite facing continuous economic aggression, active subversion and military threats by the world’s only superpower and its regional proxies) without secularisation, which essentially means the removal of anything of any real meaning from the religion, and leaving it a mere vehicle for political exploitation and in many cases for social radicalism, as organised secularised Christianity became some time ago in the US sphere.

    As for the idea that it is only the existence of “islamophobes” that prevents your desired reconstruction of Islam, this would appear to be a complete fantasy. Indeed if there is an islamophobe here, it looks to be you rather than I.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @iffen
    Except for the dishonest part.

    Why do some people always want to play the dishonest card against those people whose argument they find disagreeable?
    , @Duke of Qin
    There is a damn good reason to be opposed to Islam on a reactionary intellectual level because Islam creates paramilitarized societies and generates social friction wherever it is present because of it's inherent ingroup/outgroup aggression that is natural of clan based semitic tribal religions. The Jews of antiquity were likewise equally violent and obnoxious towards their pagan neighbors and it was only having their repeated aggression put down in extremely effective fashion by Babylonian, Greek, and finally Roman overlords that they finally gave up the ghost.

    Furthermore Sunni Islam in particular is much more destructive than it's Shia counterpart and is incompatible with non-muslim societies because of the nature of their liturgy. The fundamental point of divergence between the two may seem relatively minor and irrelevant but it has massive ramifications. Shia hold that only a lineal descendant of Mohammed via Ali is fit to rule over Muslims. The Sunni hold that "righteousness" is the only requirement. What this really means is that the Shia are in effect legitimists and beholden to natural order and hierarchy. The Supreme Ayatollah is the law of the land in Iran and you cannot exceed him theologically, and he more critically serves as a firebreak to radicalism because trying to out holy him gets you beheaded. It is also the reason why King, Church, and Pope were so necessary for the proper functioning of Europe until that devil Luther came along. It should be no surprise that the rise of Protestantism in Germany was accompanied by massive amounts of Anabaptist insanity as protestants tried to out holy each other in a massive signaling spiral that resulted in some truly crazed nonsense. I think even Luther realized it too when he had people who tried to out Holy him burned at the stake for heresy, and the eventual domination of State Churches put the kibosh on the most excessive elements Protestantism unleashed. Then again the modern perversion of the entire "Liberal" weltanschauung can be argued to trace back to it's Protestant roots. Homosexual marriage and rapefugee invasion is simply more of the same holiness signaling that Protestantism originally unleashed.

    The Sunni Muslims are the funhouse mirror dopplegangers of the Pozz that affects the West. Because they demand rule by righteousness, "righteousness" is what they get in that the overton window naturally keeps on shifting towards the more religiously obstinate and sectarian and there is no firebreak to this phenomenon. This slippery slope can only be arrested by a powerful military strongman but it can never be truly reversed without either demographically reducing them to a small enough minority where they cant cause trouble or convert them to Shiism which makes them tolerable. Otherwise they will inevitably destroy the non-Sunni Muslim component of any society they happen to be amidst via low level sub-state aggression and violence as has tended to happen elsewhere, unless they met a force equally as clannish but with greater capacity for organized violence as has happened in Israel.
    , @utu
    You made many good points I agree with. Sorry that I misrepresented you by associating with Islamophobes. I actually did not believe it when I wrote it. I was just to careless and sloppy.

    I agree on Iran and Shiites and their positive role in the ME but it would change if they started funding mosques in Europe and promote Islam in Europe as Sunni SA does which benefits the "non-jihadists" characters like Talha who nevertheless rejoice Islamization of Europe. He is not our friend. Just like Jews were not our friends when at minimum they rejoiced every setback of Catholic Church in Europe.

    I said that Iran was delegitimized in the eyes of the West by the Islamic Revolution and American embassy occupation so sanctions could be imposed, so we had no guilt by driving Iran to war with Iraq, so Iran became weaker and in the place that Israel really wanted it to be. It was not a dismissive comment in any way.

    Whether Muslim Brotherhood could play a positive role as, say Shiites in Lebanon, I do not know. They allowed themselves to be used by CIA for no good. Then more recently Israel seemed positive about them and Morsi, so I do not think they are who they claim they are. They have been compromised.

    However I will defend my position that all problems were of our own creation though without our permission, because nobody asked us what Israel and the US were planning to do. Without CIA, MI5 and Mossad activities and influence in the ME we would be in much better shape. We would be as much concerned about what is going on in the ME as we are now concerned about Indonesia or Malaysia. I believe we should let them be and help them in constructive ways and yes I favor some degree of secularization like it was in Libya, Iraq and Syria with universities, medical care, welfare and industrialization or even Afghanistan at some brief period were some women were wearing minis. Some degree of secularization is necessary to build modern society that will be self-suffient and offer opportunities for its people but the decisions should be left up to them.

    The reason I object to Islamophobia strongly is because it is also a creation and possible a part of a plan to get us involved in another Zionist war or enterprise. Before our Islamophobia gets us to repatriate one Muslim from Europe it is more likely it will help Israel to send 10 new ones to Europe because we as Islamophobes will be condoning whatever Isarel does there. Besides Islamophobes irritate me because they are like unaware children without historical memory and context. My initial comment was about the lost memory, I think.

    I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don’t share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism.

     

    I can't prove what I believe and you can't disprove it either. I am trying to formulate a very rational and reasonable hypotheses that are not driven by a priori assumption of existence of "overwhelmingly [...] jewish conspiracy." However, if some events unfold I always look at them ask a question every Jew asks: "Is it good for us or not"or rather "Has Israel anything to do with it." I think is is prudent to do so.

    The "failure of secular socialism and nationalism" in the ME would not be of this magnitude if it was not for actions of the US and Israel. So this argument is actually a counter argument to your thesis that I overdo with the 'conspiracy stuff.'
  170. @Randal
    Hmm. Nice to avoid the desperate civil war, but what's the benefit other than that?

    1. Franco-lite, rescued country from disorder, socialism, etc. “Republican” Portugal post-monarchy (1910) was an absolute disaster. Most of the advantages you would see in Franco are to be found in Salazar, at a far lower human cost.

    2. Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    3. Tremendous amount of infrastructure created — roads, port modernisation, airports, bridges, etc.

    4. Arrived to a bankrupt country, left it with one of the world’s largest gold reserves.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.
     
    Franco wasn't really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It's just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn't ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can't really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that's the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal's traditions iirc.
    , @DFH
    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa (which also involved in importing thousands of Africans and mulattos). Even post WW2 British imperial policy was less stupid. The civic imperialist ideas were also pretty cancerous, although probably also fairly irrelevant.

    Those things make him a much worse leader than Franco, although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire.
  171. @fernie
    What's a Based person?

    Essentially don’t be a cuck. If you have to ask, they are not based. You’ll know it when you see it.

    • Replies: @fernie
    So you have to be a jerk instead of just answering the question? Just say what it is instead of wasting my time you douchebag.
  172. @LondonBob
    She seems a deeply flawed person, as is Harry in some ways.

    I’m not sure what counts as a ‘deep flaw’ and merely a flaw. His problem in this circumstance is that he’s thinking with his peter.

    • Replies: @DFH

    His problem in this circumstance is that he’s thinking with his peter.
     
    I wish he were. If he had been, then he might have married one of the more attractive and appropriate women he's been out with in the past.

    https://media.glamour.com/photos/56959f3e16d0dc3747ecc5e3/master/w_2048,c_limit/beauty-2015-09-cressida-bonas-hair-main.jpg
  173. DFH says:
    @Art Deco
    I'm not sure what counts as a 'deep flaw' and merely a flaw. His problem in this circumstance is that he's thinking with his peter.

    His problem in this circumstance is that he’s thinking with his peter.

    I wish he were. If he had been, then he might have married one of the more attractive and appropriate women he’s been out with in the past.

  174. @jim jones
    The last time Brits engaged in nationalism we conquered half the planet. Most people think we should be cautious about starting down that path.

    … that wasn’t nationalism, and in at least 2 ways resulted … in the current miserable situation.

  175. @Greasy William
    3 Dem incumbents lost primary to Berniecrat insurgents tonight. This is a huge defeat for the DNC and shows that nothing can stop the Corbynization of the Democratic party.

    The demographics of the US means it won’t matter in a few years, might delay the inevitable one party rule for a while though.

    Loving how trashy and dysfunctional the Markles are, her siblings really don’t have much good to say about her, typical Hollywood type.

  176. @Randal
    Well, nationalism's complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most "nationalist" politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn "racists", "antisemites" and "homophobes", promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence - US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style "nationalists") anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

    All the way down to the last of the 3rd paragraph before “blame America first.”

    • Replies: @Randal

    All the way down to the last of the 3rd paragraph before “blame America first.”
     
    Gosh, suggesting that the world's dominant power, and indeed the "world's only superpower" for some considerable time, actually has some responsibility for events and issues around the world! Whatever next, eh?
  177. @Daniel Chieh

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.
     
    But its clearly more important to expend energy on battles between Vox Day and Jordan Peterson, or Paul Nehlen and Ricky Vaughn, or Michael Cernovich and Richard Spencer, or...

    As Mr. Karlin has talked about before, despite much talking, the nationalists are really low-trust(and for good reason, as the constant internecine infighting shows). This lack of social capital is brutal beyond even fiscal lack.

    Clearly articulated practical and pragmatic goals might help.

  178. @Randal

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia.
     
    No, I don't think so. You are just incorrect in your characterisations here, which imo reflects your own bias, because you are perfectly capable of better understanding.

    I've noted before that Unz inevitably attracts people whose views are usually excluded from free discussion in public discourse, and in the societies of the modern US sphere two of the main groups in that category are "antisemites" and "racists" (I use both terms here descriptively, as shorthand, without any negative connotation and with due recognition of their inherently dishonest and intentionally flexible definitions). I sympathise with both groups, and recognise that both groups have important things to say that are ordinarily suppressed with damaging consequences for out societies, though I am not fully on board with the more extreme positions of either

    Your bias is that you sit at the more extreme "anti-Semite" end of that spectrum while broadly accepting the mainstream critique of "racism", and you often seem unduly concerned to distance yourself from the latter [again, see my caveats above about my use of those terms]. I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don't share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism. My own bias is that I'm a social conservative who regards genuine religious belief and discipline as broadly a good thing.

    Talha as far as I can tell is an islamist (depending how you define that term) but not a jihadist. In the sense that he is the equivalent of a Christian who takes Christianity seriously as a guide to life (before modern Christianity degenerated into its modern form of a mostly socially radical bunch of leftist unbelievers play-acting at belief and administering a collection of "moralistic therapeutic deists"). While in the past Israel and the forces behind it certainly encouraged islamists, and they certainly encourage jihadists today, that was mainly directed at undermining the PLO and other rivals of the time, and it is only one small aspect of the game in the ME. There are much wider reasons why muslim countries would be better run by actual muslims (though not jihadists) - the exemplars here, albeit Shiite, are Hezbollah and Iran. They manage to be muslim without being jihadist, and to stand up to Israel without being reduced to submissive collaboration (occasional cooperation when necessary is not the same) like secular Egypt and the Gulf sunni despots, and notwithstanding your dismissive comments about Iran being "delegitimised" they do in fact play a hugely constructive and vital role in the ME. Without them, US dominance of the region would be pretty much complete. The Muslim Brotherhood could certainly have evolved into a sunni equivalent in Egypt, though it was complicated by its involvement in Libya and Syria in which it was de facto in alliance with the jihadists encouraged by Israel, the Gulf despots and the US.

    This is why you are simply incorrect in your idea of me as an "unreflective islamophobe", since I am not actually opposed to islam per se, just to its presence in force in my own country (as a result of mass immigration), and by extension its increasing presence in other post-Christian countries in Europe and America, and to its jihadist manifestations.

    As for German_Reader, he's more than capable of speaking for himself, but he's certainly considerably more hostile to islam than I am. Though even he would probably defy classification as an "unreflective islamophobe" given the kinds of genuine haters of islam that there are out there who qualify much better for than description.

    Again, your problem seems to be with the reluctance to accept your position that the only issue of significance in relation to islam is the involvement of Israel and jewish lobbies in using it to foment trouble. but islam is infinitely bigger than that, regardless of the undoubted truth in your allegations against Israel and the jewish lobbies.

    We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them
     
    There is no reason to want to "secularize" islam unless your goal is securing US (and therefore Israeli) dominance. Iran operates fine (despite facing continuous economic aggression, active subversion and military threats by the world's only superpower and its regional proxies) without secularisation, which essentially means the removal of anything of any real meaning from the religion, and leaving it a mere vehicle for political exploitation and in many cases for social radicalism, as organised secularised Christianity became some time ago in the US sphere.

    As for the idea that it is only the existence of "islamophobes" that prevents your desired reconstruction of Islam, this would appear to be a complete fantasy. Indeed if there is an islamophobe here, it looks to be you rather than I.

    Except for the dishonest part.

    Why do some people always want to play the dishonest card against those people whose argument they find disagreeable?

    • Replies: @Randal

    Except for the dishonest part.

    Why do some people always want to play the dishonest card against those people whose argument they find disagreeable?
     
    Well in the comment to which you were replying the term was used rather differently, but I recognise the point, which is one you have made on a number of previous occasions.

    If one reads an opinion about the world with which one disagrees, once any simple misunderstandings have been cleared up, there are logically three broad possibilities: one is wrong and the opiner is correct, one is correct and the opiner is mistaken, or one is correct and the opiner is lying.

    You might be correct that there are some people who habitually leap to the third position (or that there are people who habitually leap to that position on particular issues). But you are incorrect in implying that I am one (as you have openly suggested on other occasions). In general I assume in most cases that the second is correct, though I'm more or less open to the first depending upon the issue and the opiner. I tend to go to the third only when experience suggests it's the most likely explanation. That might be because, as with for instance neocons and especially those with positions in the media or political elite, long experience suggests those views are not tenable honestly or are not usually held honestly. Or it might be because I have come to distrust particular individuals.

    All such judgements are inherently ultimately speculative to some degree of course, but often the reasons for reaching them are good enough for government work.
  179. @Bragadocious
    American cultural pollution? LOL

    Americans put out lots of culture, yes. You Brits are under no obligation to consume any of it. But you do, whether it's the Ford Fiesta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, McDonald's or Facebook. This is your choice. Stop pretending like we're forcing any of it on you, or even care at all whether you notice it.

    And since I mentioned Facebook, let the record show that it was a rather benign social media platform used by people to keep in touch with their relatives and exes. Then the Brits got hold of it and turned it into an abusive platform used by pedos sweating in their Barney costumes. Leading, of course, to the "panic button" (Britain's sole "contribution" to the Internet in the last 20 years).

    Same goes for Twitter, btw. And now they're banning people left and right (though mostly right) thanks to the great example set by your hate speech hounds.

    And when it comes to cultural pollution, no one outdoes the British. Your music sucks, your films are atrocious ("Dunkirk" lol) and did I mention hate speech laws? Why yes I did. Coming soon to a city near you, thanks to the Brits.

    It must drive you “Irish” Americans crazy to know that your cousins in Ireland overwhelmingly prefer British music, TV shows, and sports to the alternatives on offer from your side of the Atlantic and for the most part don’t have all these hang-ups about big, bad Anglos. That said, you are correct on this occasion. The cultural pollution produced by Britain these days is every bit as disgusting, degenerate, and naff as anything coming out of the USA.

    Philip Owen – If I’m not mistaken a prominent member of Plaid Cymru once sneered at the Welsh assembly for being ‘too white’, or words to that effect. So-called Celtic nationalist parties are a joke. Apparently, the Breton (also Celtic) nationalists are leftists too.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    Irish-Americans? Who are you talking about?

    Someone's got a chip on his shoulder, it would seem. That someone is you, Paddie.

    And if you're obsessed with belittling Irish-Americans, why do you refer to them as your cousins? Not very logical is it. Of course the average Irish IQ is around 90 (per Richard Lynn) so I shouldn't be surprised. You're the stupidest people in Europe and you wear the mantle well. Now go back to your fairy rings.
    , @Philip Owen
    Not quite. I observed something along the lines that the Welsh Assembly is devoted to virtue signalling of a leftist sort.

    Plaid Cymru is useless. A nationalist party that doesn't want independence! They try to be more socialist than Labour. That's why UKIP, at least as Welsh Nationalist (at least some of them) has overtaken them.
  180. @utu

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.
     
    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies's actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser's regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel's intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.
     
    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel's greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.
     
    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel's hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the "spiritual teachers"? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed "spiritual teachers" and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the "gas attack" in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else's wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.

    Islamophobia is a nonsense term, distrusting and disliking Muslims is completely rational and in Europe at least often based on real-life encounters with actually existing Muslims.
    That being said, I actually agree quite a bit with some of your points. It’s definitely true that US policy since the 1940s has had the perverse effect of empowering and aiding the very worst reactionary and anti-Western forces in the Mideast. Israel has also played its role in this (as far as I know, your example of Israel initially aiding Hamas as a counterweight against the PLO is basically correct).
    I don’t think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies. Such movements have deep roots in the Islamic world, going back at least to the 18th century when it first became clear that Muslims were falling behind the West and coming under the rule of Europeans. It’s a natural reaction for people who are convinced of the absolute truth of their own religion and proud of their past conquests, but are confronted with the material superiority of the West.

    • Replies: @songbird
    None of the people "phobias" make sense, in my view. Even xenophobia is used illogically nowadays, although it might have once made sense to characterize countries that where completely closed off to visitors, like some old Asian societies, such as Tibet, or Japan and Korea, where sailors were burnt alive, once on shore.
    , @utu

    I don’t think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies.
     
    Cold War started it and Israel continued it. W/o Cold War and w/o Israel we would even not noticed that they were there. You would be no more preoccupied with them than you are with Indonesians and Malaysians. To destabilize countries and start internal ethnic and sectarian strife is easy. When they start killing each other you can blame it on them, their morality and their religion and their low IQ but then you forget about the true evil that began all that.

    It is beyond discussion: no sane person should accept Muslim immigration to Europe. If Islamophobia is what it takes I am willing to accept it as a necessary evil, however I am afraid that Islamophobes and people like you will end up first going to get involved in some operations benefiting Israel rather than taking care of the problem of immigration to Europe. Islamophobia is blinding us so people do not see what is really happening.
  181. @Hyperborean
    Essentially don't be a cuck. If you have to ask, they are not based. You'll know it when you see it.

    So you have to be a jerk instead of just answering the question? Just say what it is instead of wasting my time you douchebag.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You're not based.
  182. @for-the-record
    1. Franco-lite, rescued country from disorder, socialism, etc. "Republican" Portugal post-monarchy (1910) was an absolute disaster. Most of the advantages you would see in Franco are to be found in Salazar, at a far lower human cost.

    2. Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    3. Tremendous amount of infrastructure created -- roads, port modernisation, airports, bridges, etc.

    4. Arrived to a bankrupt country, left it with one of the world's largest gold reserves.

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can’t really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    One could perhaps also say that he was better at Franco at seeing from an early stage who would win. This didn't stop him from significantly augmenting Portugal's gold reserves through his skillful dealings in the tungsten (Wolfram for you) "war" between the UK and Germany.
    , @Anon

    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
     
    Payne's sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.
     
    As far as I know, that is the case.

    He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
     
    There were always two factions in Spain, a pro-German faction led by Serrano Sunyer and a pro-British faction led by Varela (among others). Franco seems to have seen the war as three separate conflicts: the German-Western war, the German-Soviet war, and the Japanese-Western war, though data as to his personal views is always suspect. Hitler was, to put it mildly, unsatisfied with Franco, and considered various options of getting rid of him, by assassination or invasion.

    The Blue Division served several purposes, some of which were:
    1. Getting the most pro-German militant elements far away from Spain
    2. Paying the "blood debt" to Germany for their previous help
    3. Paying back the Soviets for their previous actions

    Though of course I think Franco would have felt unqualified joy if Moscow had fallen.
    , @Art Deco
    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy.

    IOW, he wasn't delusional.
  183. @German_reader

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.
     
    Islamophobia is a nonsense term, distrusting and disliking Muslims is completely rational and in Europe at least often based on real-life encounters with actually existing Muslims.
    That being said, I actually agree quite a bit with some of your points. It's definitely true that US policy since the 1940s has had the perverse effect of empowering and aiding the very worst reactionary and anti-Western forces in the Mideast. Israel has also played its role in this (as far as I know, your example of Israel initially aiding Hamas as a counterweight against the PLO is basically correct).
    I don't think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies. Such movements have deep roots in the Islamic world, going back at least to the 18th century when it first became clear that Muslims were falling behind the West and coming under the rule of Europeans. It's a natural reaction for people who are convinced of the absolute truth of their own religion and proud of their past conquests, but are confronted with the material superiority of the West.

    None of the people “phobias” make sense, in my view. Even xenophobia is used illogically nowadays, although it might have once made sense to characterize countries that where completely closed off to visitors, like some old Asian societies, such as Tibet, or Japan and Korea, where sailors were burnt alive, once on shore.

    • Replies: @utu
    Sure, words in themselves do not make sense but they function and from how they function you get their true sense and purpose.
  184. DFH says:
    @for-the-record
    1. Franco-lite, rescued country from disorder, socialism, etc. "Republican" Portugal post-monarchy (1910) was an absolute disaster. Most of the advantages you would see in Franco are to be found in Salazar, at a far lower human cost.

    2. Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    3. Tremendous amount of infrastructure created -- roads, port modernisation, airports, bridges, etc.

    4. Arrived to a bankrupt country, left it with one of the world's largest gold reserves.

    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa (which also involved in importing thousands of Africans and mulattos). Even post WW2 British imperial policy was less stupid. The civic imperialist ideas were also pretty cancerous, although probably also fairly irrelevant.

    Those things make him a much worse leader than Franco, although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire
     
    But he did have one, there was Spanish Morocco, West Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco just gave them up since he realized the time for colonialism was over, even though he had once been quite enthusiastic about Spain's colonial empire (he started his career in Spain's Moroccan wars after all).
    , @for-the-record
    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa

    I agree entirely, I had meant to add that he would be remembered far better if he had left office (or died) shortly after WWII.
  185. @DFH
    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa (which also involved in importing thousands of Africans and mulattos). Even post WW2 British imperial policy was less stupid. The civic imperialist ideas were also pretty cancerous, although probably also fairly irrelevant.

    Those things make him a much worse leader than Franco, although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire.

    although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire

    But he did have one, there was Spanish Morocco, West Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco just gave them up since he realized the time for colonialism was over, even though he had once been quite enthusiastic about Spain’s colonial empire (he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all).

    • Replies: @DFH
    Thanks for the correction, I forgot about those.
    , @for-the-record
    he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all

    And it seems he left part of himself there as well:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/5340068/Spanish-dictator-Franco-only-had-one-testicle.html
  186. @Bragadocious
    American cultural pollution? LOL

    Americans put out lots of culture, yes. You Brits are under no obligation to consume any of it. But you do, whether it's the Ford Fiesta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, McDonald's or Facebook. This is your choice. Stop pretending like we're forcing any of it on you, or even care at all whether you notice it.

    And since I mentioned Facebook, let the record show that it was a rather benign social media platform used by people to keep in touch with their relatives and exes. Then the Brits got hold of it and turned it into an abusive platform used by pedos sweating in their Barney costumes. Leading, of course, to the "panic button" (Britain's sole "contribution" to the Internet in the last 20 years).

    Same goes for Twitter, btw. And now they're banning people left and right (though mostly right) thanks to the great example set by your hate speech hounds.

    And when it comes to cultural pollution, no one outdoes the British. Your music sucks, your films are atrocious ("Dunkirk" lol) and did I mention hate speech laws? Why yes I did. Coming soon to a city near you, thanks to the Brits.

    I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘cultural pollution’…
    unsurprisingly, your post is very… american in outlook/attitude.
    some kind of nationalist movement/revival is impossible with this kind of outlook. obsession with individualism and nonsense about individuals making ‘rational choices’ about what they consume… as if trends and fashions are some kind of mass rational choice.

    national survival implies a certain amount of groupthink. and that’s only healthy.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    What the hell are you blathering about.

    Asking the Brits to be accountable for their choices and actions is a very American point of view? I'd say your post is very...British for attempting to skirt that accountability. You're the ones who made a national fetish out of the sitcom "Friends." We didn't do that. You did.
  187. @Greasy William

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.
     
    But Islamophobia has been around for ages. Long before Islamism appeared. Even today in Syria you are seeing some of the more hardcore Assadist types starting to regard Islam itself, as opposed to just Islamism, as the enemy.

    ...

    re Talha: Talha is religious but not an Islamist. He hates Islamists more than anyone on this board because for him it's personal. Given Talha's education level, I'm pretty sure that the Islamic world's problems aren't the result there being too many Talhas.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don't actually believe it.

    ...

    re Israel and Islamism: you have every right to have an opinion on Israeli motives, but when you refuse to learn about Israeli politics you will come up with theories that just don't make any sense.

    Anybody who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that secular Israel was horrified when Morsi won. It was the Israeli far right that supported Morsi but I would say 95%+ of Israeli Jews supported Mubarak and were happy when Morsi was overthrown.

    I don't know anything about the genesis of Hamas, but I do know that in 2008 the Israeli right was very opposed to the war in Gaza because they were terrified that Hamas would be toppled and the PLO put back in charge there. I remember how I myself was cheering Hamas on at the time because I was certain that the IDF intended to topple Hamas. In contrast, the Israeli left was gung ho about the war precisely because they wanted to install Fatah in Gaza and they repeatedly pushed this idea on Israeli TV.

    And today it is generally understood that the number 1 job of the IDF in Judea and Samaria (what you call The West Bank) is keeping Abu Mazen in power. Similarly, I think that even you would concede that Israel would prefer a totally secular Lebanon to one where the state is essentially under Hezbollah control.

    Your thesis comes down to "Israel is run by people who have the same worldview as Greasy William". But that simply isn't so and any Israeli would laugh at such a concept. You can believe whatever you want, but you are only lying to yourself.

    Hey Greasy,

    Randal is right – I’d probably be labeled some sort of Islamist (it’s not our native term – so whatever). Islamist seems to range from anyone like the returned PM of Malaysia to Erdogan to Morsi to Daesh. Very difficult for me to keep track since I don’t really care what box others put me in – we have our own self-referential indigenous definitions.

    But you are right in the sense that I can’t stand extremist groups like Daesh and other takfiri groups like them; they have killed thousands upon thousands of Muslims, dragged the name of the religion through the mud, killed innocents in non-Muslim countries which then serves to be a catalyst for more attacks on the Muslim world – I can’t think of a single positive that has come out of them.

    But, yes; I take Islam very seriously – in fact I take the institution of religion very seriously. In a world that thinks religion is a hobby, a relic, or an annoyance at best, this is understandably thought of as quaint, if not insane:
    “Make remembrance of God until the people call you mad (majnoon).” – Musnad of Imam Ahmad (ra)

    Peace.

  188. @German_reader

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.
     
    Franco wasn't really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It's just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn't ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can't really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that's the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal's traditions iirc.

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    One could perhaps also say that he was better at Franco at seeing from an early stage who would win. This didn’t stop him from significantly augmenting Portugal’s gold reserves through his skillful dealings in the tungsten (Wolfram for you) “war” between the UK and Germany.

  189. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.
     
    Franco wasn't really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It's just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn't ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can't really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that's the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal's traditions iirc.

    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    As far as I know, that is the case.

    He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.

    There were always two factions in Spain, a pro-German faction led by Serrano Sunyer and a pro-British faction led by Varela (among others). Franco seems to have seen the war as three separate conflicts: the German-Western war, the German-Soviet war, and the Japanese-Western war, though data as to his personal views is always suspect. Hitler was, to put it mildly, unsatisfied with Franco, and considered various options of getting rid of him, by assassination or invasion.

    The Blue Division served several purposes, some of which were:
    1. Getting the most pro-German militant elements far away from Spain
    2. Paying the “blood debt” to Germany for their previous help
    3. Paying back the Soviets for their previous actions

    Though of course I think Franco would have felt unqualified joy if Moscow had fallen.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.
     
    That's not my impression at all, to put it mildly. Payne comes across more like some Christian conservative to me, definitely not sympathetic to fascism.
  190. @DFH
    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa (which also involved in importing thousands of Africans and mulattos). Even post WW2 British imperial policy was less stupid. The civic imperialist ideas were also pretty cancerous, although probably also fairly irrelevant.

    Those things make him a much worse leader than Franco, although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire.

    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa

    I agree entirely, I had meant to add that he would be remembered far better if he had left office (or died) shortly after WWII.

  191. @Anon

    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
     
    Payne's sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.
     
    As far as I know, that is the case.

    He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
     
    There were always two factions in Spain, a pro-German faction led by Serrano Sunyer and a pro-British faction led by Varela (among others). Franco seems to have seen the war as three separate conflicts: the German-Western war, the German-Soviet war, and the Japanese-Western war, though data as to his personal views is always suspect. Hitler was, to put it mildly, unsatisfied with Franco, and considered various options of getting rid of him, by assassination or invasion.

    The Blue Division served several purposes, some of which were:
    1. Getting the most pro-German militant elements far away from Spain
    2. Paying the "blood debt" to Germany for their previous help
    3. Paying back the Soviets for their previous actions

    Though of course I think Franco would have felt unqualified joy if Moscow had fallen.

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    That’s not my impression at all, to put it mildly. Payne comes across more like some Christian conservative to me, definitely not sympathetic to fascism.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Really? I haven't read his biography of Franco, just his work on the Falange, and that was the impression I got; perhaps his views changed?
  192. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Look - this is all opinion being posited as fact.

    became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable
     
    To people like you; this is a subjective evaluation. Which is fine - but don't posit it as fact. Some people want to live in a place where they can easily have access to liquor or pick up chicks or...others do not.

    You write the word "normal"; yet Azerbaijan is starting to suffer from the same imploding population issue as Europe. It's not as bad, but that's because they are late to the party - how is this normal by an organic metric?

    religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.
     
    I like the religious parts just fine, don't like the radicalized ones.

    could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.
     
    Again, only someone completely enamored by (post)modernity will make these statements. Human beings are religious by nature, we have been for thousands of years. What we see today is not normal. How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?
    https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-alarming-rise-suicide

    Peace.

    How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?

    It’s not and I agree with your other points.

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness. Sri Lanka for instance, has one of the highest (if not the highest anymore, I’m not sure) suicide rates in the world, and even in the north people you meet, rich or poor, are not particularly unhappy– there is just a low threshold for the amount of unhappiness that makes one want to die.

    One would think the high rate was due to Tamils or to monks offing themselves for political reasons but I am told neither is the case.

    • Replies: @Talha

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness.
     
    Yes - not always - but an uptick of quadruple the rate in something like this within a relatively short time is, at least, alarming.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though. One may not be happy, but one can be content even under difficult circumstances (now happiness under those circumstances is a spiritual level only attained by the elite of the elite):
    "When He gives, He shows you His kindness,
    When He deprives, He shows you His power,
    And in all that, He is making Himself known to you...
    When He alienates you from His creatures,
    Then know that He wants to open to you the door of intimacy with Himself..."
    - Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    It is interesting, I recently read an interview with a brother from Denmark or Belgium or something. He converted to Islam after a trip to Morocco - which is still a relatively traditional and religious place as compared to Azerbaijan. He was not impressed by any material thing he saw there at all - it is a pretty humble place after all. What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return. He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Different people value and put priorities on different things, it's all quite natural.

    Peace.
  193. @Dmitry

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

     

    The problem is not as much as not having enough kids. But not having enough kids, relative to lower quality or socially less civilized populations (however subjectively defined) having more kids, while being able to access same territory.

    If all populations in an equally accessed territory had less kids at the same time, that would be be relevant only to the dependency ratio - i.e. only a getting worse, ceteris paribus, problem for dependency ratio at a certain time.

    If people have less kids in one country, but combined with a strong immigration barrier (like Japan), preventing access to the territory from lower quality or less civilized populations, then there is only the dependency ratio problem .

    But there is not the problem of lower quality people, or less civilized culture people, having more kids, while accessing the same territory.

    The nightmare combination for a country feels more like:
    1. Higher quality or more civilized populations have less kids.
    2. Lower quality or uncivilized (however subjectively defined) populations have more kids.
    3. Lower quality or uncivilized populations having access to the same territory as higher quality or more civilized populations.

    Japan is not experiencing a nightmare situation, because it does not have 3. It will have problem with dependency ratio increasing, but this is not so called 'demographic nightmare scenario'.

    But there are a number of countries, whether we talk about Russia, UK, France, Israel, India, Sweden - where Islamic birthrates are higher than the birthrates of all other groups, while at the same time accessing the same territory as the non-Islamic populations.

    Now in Talha view the Islamic populations may be more civilized or higher quality populations (which might be a fair viewpoint and even true from some religious perspective). But from the point of view of people who view the categories the other way around - it can be seen the reason the differential birthrates are seen as a problem (and it's only when combined with weak immigration policies).

    I totally get the nightmare scenario of #3. I have no problems with non-Muslim countries shutting down immigration.

    weak immigration policies

    I have no problem with non-Muslim countries deciding to ship Muslims back to countries of origin* either (I don’t really expect much from people that don’t have some kind of transcendental value system they hold themselves to – anything goes) – whatever the majority says. Just do it all legally, that’s not much to ask – right?

    Peace.

    *Note: As I’ve stated before – you will be doing a good number of them a huge favor since they are misbehaving and losing their souls in the West.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Legally, is really a bit of a challenge. What is happening to Europe certainly has no legal basis - it is without the consent of the people and is therefore illegitimate.

    I will go back to the example of Ireland. There was a plan to settle 100 "refugees" in a hotel in the village of Lisdoonvarna, which is a very picturesque cultural center, and only has about 300 permanent residents. There was a local vote. The people voted 93% "no", but the "refugees" are being settled there anyway.

    The Irish Constitution begins with these words: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial..." In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God's Law. It is Haraam.

    I might add since you believe society is so corrupt (a belief many of us share), it seems inconsistent or at least naively optimistic to propound that a grassroots effort can change a trend through existing political channels. What is being done is often in violation of the law. Therefore changing the law won't help. What about changing the politicians? Many bureaucrats involved are unelected. Others are elected by the outsiders who want to grow their group. Anyway, good luck finding the honest pols, or the ones that can survive the media onslaught. We don't live in a democracy - Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.
  194. @Matra
    It must drive you "Irish" Americans crazy to know that your cousins in Ireland overwhelmingly prefer British music, TV shows, and sports to the alternatives on offer from your side of the Atlantic and for the most part don't have all these hang-ups about big, bad Anglos. That said, you are correct on this occasion. The cultural pollution produced by Britain these days is every bit as disgusting, degenerate, and naff as anything coming out of the USA.

    Philip Owen - If I'm not mistaken a prominent member of Plaid Cymru once sneered at the Welsh assembly for being 'too white', or words to that effect. So-called Celtic nationalist parties are a joke. Apparently, the Breton (also Celtic) nationalists are leftists too.

    Irish-Americans? Who are you talking about?

    Someone’s got a chip on his shoulder, it would seem. That someone is you, Paddie.

    And if you’re obsessed with belittling Irish-Americans, why do you refer to them as your cousins? Not very logical is it. Of course the average Irish IQ is around 90 (per Richard Lynn) so I shouldn’t be surprised. You’re the stupidest people in Europe and you wear the mantle well. Now go back to your fairy rings.

  195. @German_reader

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.
     
    That's not my impression at all, to put it mildly. Payne comes across more like some Christian conservative to me, definitely not sympathetic to fascism.

    Really? I haven’t read his biography of Franco, just his work on the Falange, and that was the impression I got; perhaps his views changed?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    I definitely got the impression that Payne is some kind of Christian conservative, even somewhat anti-nationalist I'd say. The books I've read by him (his Franco biography and two smaller books, "Spain: a unique history", and a book about civil wars in Europe) are all relatively recent though, so maybe his views evolved over time.
  196. @German_reader

    although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire
     
    But he did have one, there was Spanish Morocco, West Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco just gave them up since he realized the time for colonialism was over, even though he had once been quite enthusiastic about Spain's colonial empire (he started his career in Spain's Moroccan wars after all).

    Thanks for the correction, I forgot about those.

  197. @Anon
    Really? I haven't read his biography of Franco, just his work on the Falange, and that was the impression I got; perhaps his views changed?

    I definitely got the impression that Payne is some kind of Christian conservative, even somewhat anti-nationalist I’d say. The books I’ve read by him (his Franco biography and two smaller books, “Spain: a unique history”, and a book about civil wars in Europe) are all relatively recent though, so maybe his views evolved over time.

  198. @Anon

    How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?
     
    It's not and I agree with your other points.

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness. Sri Lanka for instance, has one of the highest (if not the highest anymore, I'm not sure) suicide rates in the world, and even in the north people you meet, rich or poor, are not particularly unhappy-- there is just a low threshold for the amount of unhappiness that makes one want to die.

    One would think the high rate was due to Tamils or to monks offing themselves for political reasons but I am told neither is the case.

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness.

    Yes – not always – but an uptick of quadruple the rate in something like this within a relatively short time is, at least, alarming.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though. One may not be happy, but one can be content even under difficult circumstances (now happiness under those circumstances is a spiritual level only attained by the elite of the elite):
    “When He gives, He shows you His kindness,
    When He deprives, He shows you His power,
    And in all that, He is making Himself known to you…
    When He alienates you from His creatures,
    Then know that He wants to open to you the door of intimacy with Himself…”
    – Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    It is interesting, I recently read an interview with a brother from Denmark or Belgium or something. He converted to Islam after a trip to Morocco – which is still a relatively traditional and religious place as compared to Azerbaijan. He was not impressed by any material thing he saw there at all – it is a pretty humble place after all. What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return. He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Different people value and put priorities on different things, it’s all quite natural.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though.
     
    That's probably true in Sri Lanka, but it doesn't explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return.
     
    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago. It's actually very true of Sri Lankans even now (especially the Sinhalese), except in some places which will not be named. I also don't think of Moroccans as a particularly patient people, but perhaps I'm wrong. I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.
    , @songbird

    He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.
     
    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time. That was before globalization and enforced diversity. Perhaps, there were also other factors that weakened it - internal migration, standard of living, secularization - regardless, it can never come back in a diverse society - it is dead. The people who fool themselves by thinking anti-racism can bring it back are the same ones who murdered it. The blood of hospitality and community is dripping from their hands while they virtue signal. But, unlike Lady MacBeth, they feel no guilt at all because they are ignorant of being the cause of it.
  199. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness.
     
    Yes - not always - but an uptick of quadruple the rate in something like this within a relatively short time is, at least, alarming.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though. One may not be happy, but one can be content even under difficult circumstances (now happiness under those circumstances is a spiritual level only attained by the elite of the elite):
    "When He gives, He shows you His kindness,
    When He deprives, He shows you His power,
    And in all that, He is making Himself known to you...
    When He alienates you from His creatures,
    Then know that He wants to open to you the door of intimacy with Himself..."
    - Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    It is interesting, I recently read an interview with a brother from Denmark or Belgium or something. He converted to Islam after a trip to Morocco - which is still a relatively traditional and religious place as compared to Azerbaijan. He was not impressed by any material thing he saw there at all - it is a pretty humble place after all. What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return. He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Different people value and put priorities on different things, it's all quite natural.

    Peace.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though.

    That’s probably true in Sri Lanka, but it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago. It’s actually very true of Sri Lankans even now (especially the Sinhalese), except in some places which will not be named. I also don’t think of Moroccans as a particularly patient people, but perhaps I’m wrong. I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.

    • Replies: @Talha

    it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.
     
    Good point, there are always exceptions to the general rule.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago.
     
    I will agree - and the degree to which individualistic, hyper-consumerist values penetrate those traditional societies, these kinds of experiences will become less and less.

    I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.
     
    That certainly does help from taking the plunge. It is, after all, predicated on belief. If one believes God considers it to be a grave sin, then one necessarily believes in God, then one incorporates that belief in God into how they cope or make coherence out of a given situation:
    “If God loves a people, then He afflicts them with trials. Whoever is patient has the reward of patience, and whoever is impatient has the fault of impatience." - Musnad of Imam Ahmad

    I remember coming across this survey a while back on the subject...very telling:
    https://netecr.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/screenshot-2017-09-15-10-32-23.png

    However, it is a few decades old - I would like to see how numbers have changed, if at all since then.

    This spiritual guide, in the Dharmic tradition, says he wouldn't be surprised if we see a deluge of people checking out within our lifetimes:
    https://youtu.be/FZPF9tFRYYM?t=1m29s

    Goes back to that quote I posted from Dostoevsky:
    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.”

    People can disagree of course.

    Now the reason I brought up that Moroccan example to contrast the Azerbaijani one is that to point out that the convert guy was obviously moved by what he saw in contrast to the society he lived in and it completely caused him to reevaluate his own beliefs and priorities. Do you think he would have been similarly moved to rethink anything on an existential level by going into a Muslim society which is basically built up of brown people doing a half-baked job of imitating Europeans? It's amusing, but that's about it.

    Peace.
  200. @German_reader

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand.
     
    He's a useful idiot for Muslims. Unfortunately not an uncommon type among Westerners of spiritual inclinations.
    Good points in your post, I agree completely (also with Daniel Chieh and Another German reader...lauding Muslims and other 3rd worlders for their irresponsible breeding is very misguided, given that quite a few of those societies might eventually face mass death if the West doesn't step in to prevent it).

    Turns out the real horseshoe theory is actually neoliberal policymakers and faux-traditionalists both constantly selling white people on how awesome Islam is and how much we need it.

  201. @German_reader

    although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire
     
    But he did have one, there was Spanish Morocco, West Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco just gave them up since he realized the time for colonialism was over, even though he had once been quite enthusiastic about Spain's colonial empire (he started his career in Spain's Moroccan wars after all).

    he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all

    And it seems he left part of himself there as well:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/5340068/Spanish-dictator-Franco-only-had-one-testicle.html

    • Replies: @songbird
    I don't believe it. Hitler and Franco - both fascist dictators - both only had one testicle? This seems to follow on the general push to demasculate Hitler by making him homosexual, even in the face of him having a mistress.
  202. @Talha

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness.
     
    Yes - not always - but an uptick of quadruple the rate in something like this within a relatively short time is, at least, alarming.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though. One may not be happy, but one can be content even under difficult circumstances (now happiness under those circumstances is a spiritual level only attained by the elite of the elite):
    "When He gives, He shows you His kindness,
    When He deprives, He shows you His power,
    And in all that, He is making Himself known to you...
    When He alienates you from His creatures,
    Then know that He wants to open to you the door of intimacy with Himself..."
    - Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    It is interesting, I recently read an interview with a brother from Denmark or Belgium or something. He converted to Islam after a trip to Morocco - which is still a relatively traditional and religious place as compared to Azerbaijan. He was not impressed by any material thing he saw there at all - it is a pretty humble place after all. What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return. He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Different people value and put priorities on different things, it's all quite natural.

    Peace.

    He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time. That was before globalization and enforced diversity. Perhaps, there were also other factors that weakened it – internal migration, standard of living, secularization – regardless, it can never come back in a diverse society – it is dead. The people who fool themselves by thinking anti-racism can bring it back are the same ones who murdered it. The blood of hospitality and community is dripping from their hands while they virtue signal. But, unlike Lady MacBeth, they feel no guilt at all because they are ignorant of being the cause of it.

    • Replies: @Talha

    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time.
     
    I don't doubt it in the slightest.

    There was also a level of native public modesty that would shock those of today:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXxuNncWq4s

    My how the world has changed...

    Peace.

  203. @for-the-record
    he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all

    And it seems he left part of himself there as well:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/5340068/Spanish-dictator-Franco-only-had-one-testicle.html

    I don’t believe it. Hitler and Franco – both fascist dictators – both only had one testicle? This seems to follow on the general push to demasculate Hitler by making him homosexual, even in the face of him having a mistress.

  204. @Anon

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though.
     
    That's probably true in Sri Lanka, but it doesn't explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return.
     
    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago. It's actually very true of Sri Lankans even now (especially the Sinhalese), except in some places which will not be named. I also don't think of Moroccans as a particularly patient people, but perhaps I'm wrong. I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.

    it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    Good point, there are always exceptions to the general rule.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago.

    I will agree – and the degree to which individualistic, hyper-consumerist values penetrate those traditional societies, these kinds of experiences will become less and less.

    I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.

    That certainly does help from taking the plunge. It is, after all, predicated on belief. If one believes God considers it to be a grave sin, then one necessarily believes in God, then one incorporates that belief in God into how they cope or make coherence out of a given situation:
    “If God loves a people, then He afflicts them with trials. Whoever is patient has the reward of patience, and whoever is impatient has the fault of impatience.” – Musnad of Imam Ahmad

    I remember coming across this survey a while back on the subject…very telling:

    However, it is a few decades old – I would like to see how numbers have changed, if at all since then.

    This spiritual guide, in the Dharmic tradition, says he wouldn’t be surprised if we see a deluge of people checking out within our lifetimes:

    Goes back to that quote I posted from Dostoevsky:
    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.”

    People can disagree of course.

    Now the reason I brought up that Moroccan example to contrast the Azerbaijani one is that to point out that the convert guy was obviously moved by what he saw in contrast to the society he lived in and it completely caused him to reevaluate his own beliefs and priorities. Do you think he would have been similarly moved to rethink anything on an existential level by going into a Muslim society which is basically built up of brown people doing a half-baked job of imitating Europeans? It’s amusing, but that’s about it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Thanks.

    I see you're offline or something but does anyone know anything about the source of that graph? I find it interesting but I can think of several methods of compiling that data none of which are ideal.
  205. @inselaffen
    I don't think you understand the concept of 'cultural pollution'...
    unsurprisingly, your post is very... american in outlook/attitude.
    some kind of nationalist movement/revival is impossible with this kind of outlook. obsession with individualism and nonsense about individuals making 'rational choices' about what they consume... as if trends and fashions are some kind of mass rational choice.

    national survival implies a certain amount of groupthink. and that's only healthy.

    What the hell are you blathering about.

    Asking the Brits to be accountable for their choices and actions is a very American point of view? I’d say your post is very…British for attempting to skirt that accountability. You’re the ones who made a national fetish out of the sitcom “Friends.” We didn’t do that. You did.

  206. @songbird

    He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.
     
    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time. That was before globalization and enforced diversity. Perhaps, there were also other factors that weakened it - internal migration, standard of living, secularization - regardless, it can never come back in a diverse society - it is dead. The people who fool themselves by thinking anti-racism can bring it back are the same ones who murdered it. The blood of hospitality and community is dripping from their hands while they virtue signal. But, unlike Lady MacBeth, they feel no guilt at all because they are ignorant of being the cause of it.

    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time.

    I don’t doubt it in the slightest.

    There was also a level of native public modesty that would shock those of today:

    My how the world has changed…

    Peace.

  207. @Talha
    I totally get the nightmare scenario of #3. I have no problems with non-Muslim countries shutting down immigration.

    weak immigration policies
     
    I have no problem with non-Muslim countries deciding to ship Muslims back to countries of origin* either (I don't really expect much from people that don't have some kind of transcendental value system they hold themselves to - anything goes) - whatever the majority says. Just do it all legally, that's not much to ask - right?

    Peace.

    *Note: As I've stated before - you will be doing a good number of them a huge favor since they are misbehaving and losing their souls in the West.

    Legally, is really a bit of a challenge. What is happening to Europe certainly has no legal basis – it is without the consent of the people and is therefore illegitimate.

    I will go back to the example of Ireland. There was a plan to settle 100 “refugees” in a hotel in the village of Lisdoonvarna, which is a very picturesque cultural center, and only has about 300 permanent residents. There was a local vote. The people voted 93% “no”, but the “refugees” are being settled there anyway.

    The Irish Constitution begins with these words: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial…” In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God’s Law. It is Haraam.

    I might add since you believe society is so corrupt (a belief many of us share), it seems inconsistent or at least naively optimistic to propound that a grassroots effort can change a trend through existing political channels. What is being done is often in violation of the law. Therefore changing the law won’t help. What about changing the politicians? Many bureaucrats involved are unelected. Others are elected by the outsiders who want to grow their group. Anyway, good luck finding the honest pols, or the ones that can survive the media onslaught. We don’t live in a democracy – Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.

    • Replies: @Talha

    There was a local vote.
     
    Yes, but this is a contrast between the local and federal levels - this happens all the time all over the world. Local decisions are overwritten. There are legal ways to reverse this; by drafting laws which grant greater rights at the local level. From what I've read, Switzerland is very good about this principle.

    In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.
     
    That's fine, but there is a legal way to deal with this also. I have pointed out the example of Federal Shariah Court in Pakistan which oversees and can turn any legal decision made by a lower court (including the Supreme Court):
    http://www.federalshariatcourt.gov.pk/Obj.html

    It is not perfect by any means, but I'm certain Ireland can do better. Ireland needs to establish a similar court, given full authority in the constitution, and seated by fully credentialed ecclesiastical authorities as well as authorities in secular jurisprudence that can make review decisions and strike out any law that contrast with Christian canon law.

    The people need to demand this change made to their constitution if they feel this is important.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God’s Law. It is Haraam.
     
    Excellent point! Muslim scholars of the past were very much opposed to taxes that were not sanctioned by sacred law because they are generally considered theft and must be kept to a minimum to the actual real need of running the government. Some of our ulema went toe to toe against the sultans based on this and ended up being exiled or worse. There were of course exceptions made in certain cases; for instance Imam Izz ud-Din (ra) famous ruling to raise funds for an army to challenge the Mongol expeditionary force that was going to invade Egypt.

    We don’t live in a democracy – Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.
     
    Well, I certainly can't disagree with you or Hans Herman Hoppe that democracy seems to be a fallen god:
    https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Economics-Politics-Perspectives-Democratic/dp/0765808684

    Which is why I see no reason to import it wholesale into Muslim lands; we can learn from and adopt the good parts with no problem, but I see no reason to adopt it in toto when the very people who came up with it consider it to be in crisis.

    Peace.
  208. @Randal
    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse. But the comment about platitudes was not directed at you - your drawback is that you waste too much time and effort "trolling". But that's just how you get your kicks, which in the end is what we are all here for.

    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse.

    Thank you!

    I will steal this piece of wit, sir(though I’ll rewrite it somewhat as “substance, not the result of substance abuse.”)

  209. @fernie
    So you have to be a jerk instead of just answering the question? Just say what it is instead of wasting my time you douchebag.

    You’re not based.

  210. @songbird
    Legally, is really a bit of a challenge. What is happening to Europe certainly has no legal basis - it is without the consent of the people and is therefore illegitimate.

    I will go back to the example of Ireland. There was a plan to settle 100 "refugees" in a hotel in the village of Lisdoonvarna, which is a very picturesque cultural center, and only has about 300 permanent residents. There was a local vote. The people voted 93% "no", but the "refugees" are being settled there anyway.

    The Irish Constitution begins with these words: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial..." In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God's Law. It is Haraam.

    I might add since you believe society is so corrupt (a belief many of us share), it seems inconsistent or at least naively optimistic to propound that a grassroots effort can change a trend through existing political channels. What is being done is often in violation of the law. Therefore changing the law won't help. What about changing the politicians? Many bureaucrats involved are unelected. Others are elected by the outsiders who want to grow their group. Anyway, good luck finding the honest pols, or the ones that can survive the media onslaught. We don't live in a democracy - Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.

    There was a local vote.

    Yes, but this is a contrast between the local and federal levels – this happens all the time all over the world. Local decisions are overwritten. There are legal ways to reverse this; by drafting laws which grant greater rights at the local level. From what I’ve read, Switzerland is very good about this principle.

    In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    That’s fine, but there is a legal way to deal with this also. I have pointed out the example of Federal Shariah Court in Pakistan which oversees and can turn any legal decision made by a lower court (including the Supreme Court):
    http://www.federalshariatcourt.gov.pk/Obj.html

    It is not perfect by any means, but I’m certain Ireland can do better. Ireland needs to establish a similar court, given full authority in the constitution, and seated by fully credentialed ecclesiastical authorities as well as authorities in secular jurisprudence that can make review decisions and strike out any law that contrast with Christian canon law.

    The people need to demand this change made to their constitution if they feel this is important.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God’s Law. It is Haraam.

    Excellent point! Muslim scholars of the past were very much opposed to taxes that were not sanctioned by sacred law because they are generally considered theft and must be kept to a minimum to the actual real need of running the government. Some of our ulema went toe to toe against the sultans based on this and ended up being exiled or worse. There were of course exceptions made in certain cases; for instance Imam Izz ud-Din (ra) famous ruling to raise funds for an army to challenge the Mongol expeditionary force that was going to invade Egypt.

    We don’t live in a democracy – Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.

    Well, I certainly can’t disagree with you or Hans Herman Hoppe that democracy seems to be a fallen god:

    Which is why I see no reason to import it wholesale into Muslim lands; we can learn from and adopt the good parts with no problem, but I see no reason to adopt it in toto when the very people who came up with it consider it to be in crisis.

    Peace.

  211. @Talha

    if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton
     
    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren't having enough kids, but themselves don't feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    If one feels population numbers and fertility are at an optimum level, great - no problems there!

    profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars
     
    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal. This is a great starting point. From here you can form value judgments on individuals and societies (cultures, branches of knowledge, tools, etc.) that help or do not to attain said goal. This is a purpose-driven value system - bravo!

    While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc.
     
    Totally agree!

    Peace.

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal.

    Even though I have profound disagreements with Daniel Chieh and Anatoly Karlin, I respect them because they are both obviously religious people.

    Daniel wants to colonize the stars, and Anatoly is interested in transhunanusm.

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    The hopelessness of most of the commenters here on the other hand is frightening. Randal is actually getting angry at me for trying to inject him with a bit of morale, and is ferociously trying to demoralize me!

    I was musing about this last night – instead of thanking me for trying to raise his morale, he tries to lower my morale.

    When the patient resists the cure you know the disease is very advanced.

    • Replies: @Talha

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.
     
    Absolutely; faith that one can reach beyond what is our current state, a hope that this purpose will end in success and not failure, a due respect (reverence one might even say) for the writings and works and efforts of those authorities that are embedded in the project...

    And wait until they project is achieved; there will be statues, there will be museums where the (holy) relics are displayed (full-scale replicas of the laboratory where the first breakthrough was made), the person's childhood home may become a site people visit (make pilgrimage to), babies will be named...

    Perhaps you made it a little too personal with Randal by asking about his age and what not - I don't know - I've had good exchanges with him.

    In another thread, I made a similar mistake with someone else (that someone else was good enough to point out) so I had to backtrack and ask forgiveness.
    "...Verily the ego incites toward evil unless my Lord shows mercy: He is most Forgiving, most Merciful." (12:53)

    Peace.

  212. @Hyperborean
    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don't.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don't have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don't really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don't understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in - a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don't have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation - particularly traditional and obscurantist strains - tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.

    I’m against the Enlightenment and for “obscurantism”.

    I think modernity is a mistake – I want us to go “backwards”.

    As such, I view Islam – in some of its historical versions – as far better suited to healthy human living than the modern world. The modern world is perhaps the worst society that ever existed.

    Now, I’m not saying you have to like Islam – there are many other religions to choose from.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    So choose some other, better religion and stop shilling for islam. I think Western-style quasi-Buddhism would fit you.

    Islam only makes countries more backwards - which is detrimental to the acceleration of technological development that is the only way we can truly discover a true divine being.

    Deserts are merely wastelands, which is what obscurantist islam will turn Europe into if this southern volkerwanderung isn't stopped. Why make the aim of technological revelation that much harder for the industrial and post-industrial world to achieve?
  213. @reiner Tor
    You still don't get it. Had the police started a true massacre, killing hundreds of the participants in the rally, this might motivate tens of thousands to engage in violence or terrorism. (Which the Palestinians are doing.) But instead it's just a few people losing their jobs.

    I have heard of many people enthusiastically sacrificing their lives in battle. Not many people have enthusiastically paid their taxes.

    The situation is so bad because it's quite comfortable on the individual level.

    I don’t think that’s correct.

    It’s not because people are so comfortable – people are unwilling to sacrifice their comfort because they have no higher values.

    So you have it backwards – people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can’t give it up.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    People have given up comfort to engage in violence. In fact, this is what your Muslim terrorist or Hamas member role models did. (Most of them had been unemployed or socially inept or petty criminals or all three, so it’s not like the majority of them gave up some high quality comfortable lifestyles with families.) Then they can become heroes in the eyes of their communities.

    What “racist” activists face is simply losing their jobs and becoming unemployed and unemployable losers, end of story. Many people are willing to become heroes fighting wars or engaging in other forms of violence. Not many people are willing to become losers.

    Basically becoming Breivik would be a possibility if it wasn’t so pointless: all he achieved, ironically, is a temporary blip in the votes of the anti-immigration party. Actually, the Muslim terrorists are engaging in pointless violence either: it doesn’t help Islam.

    Organizing a community is great advice, except if it gets traction it’ll be shut down by the authorities, because you cannot exclude other races from your community. And if you don’t exclude them, what’s the point? You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?
  214. @AaronB

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal.

     

    Even though I have profound disagreements with Daniel Chieh and Anatoly Karlin, I respect them because they are both obviously religious people.

    Daniel wants to colonize the stars, and Anatoly is interested in transhunanusm.

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    The hopelessness of most of the commenters here on the other hand is frightening. Randal is actually getting angry at me for trying to inject him with a bit of morale, and is ferociously trying to demoralize me!

    I was musing about this last night - instead of thanking me for trying to raise his morale, he tries to lower my morale.

    When the patient resists the cure you know the disease is very advanced.

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    Absolutely; faith that one can reach beyond what is our current state, a hope that this purpose will end in success and not failure, a due respect (reverence one might even say) for the writings and works and efforts of those authorities that are embedded in the project…

    And wait until they project is achieved; there will be statues, there will be museums where the (holy) relics are displayed (full-scale replicas of the laboratory where the first breakthrough was made), the person’s childhood home may become a site people visit (make pilgrimage to), babies will be named…

    Perhaps you made it a little too personal with Randal by asking about his age and what not – I don’t know – I’ve had good exchanges with him.

    In another thread, I made a similar mistake with someone else (that someone else was good enough to point out) so I had to backtrack and ask forgiveness.
    “…Verily the ego incites toward evil unless my Lord shows mercy: He is most Forgiving, most Merciful.” (12:53)

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I'm actually surprised at how upset people are getting at the age thing. I think they know their generation really did make a mess of things.

    I have no problem with Randal. Highly intelligent just with the typical superficiality of the materialist. But it's good for them to get angry, anyways. Awaken them from their lethargy lol.

    Anyways, spending too much time here is actually getting me down, lol. I'm beginning to become like a demoralized European myself - yikes!

    They do not want to recover morale - I thought they just didn't realize one could approach life with morale, that they had lost some crucial piece of cultural knowledge.

    But it is not a piece of knowledge they are missing. As long as they are materialists, they cannot have morale.

    Meanwhile, last week I visited a Jewish friend and some Rabbi was on TV saying how literally everything is possible, because God decides everything. He was going on and on, with passion, about anything is possible.

    That's what Jews teach their kids - no doubt Randal would find it all childish platitudes and unrealistic, a bad case of naive complacency, worse, doing harm, really.

    And so it goes.
  215. @songbird
    None of the people "phobias" make sense, in my view. Even xenophobia is used illogically nowadays, although it might have once made sense to characterize countries that where completely closed off to visitors, like some old Asian societies, such as Tibet, or Japan and Korea, where sailors were burnt alive, once on shore.

    Sure, words in themselves do not make sense but they function and from how they function you get their true sense and purpose.

  216. @Talha

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.
     
    Absolutely; faith that one can reach beyond what is our current state, a hope that this purpose will end in success and not failure, a due respect (reverence one might even say) for the writings and works and efforts of those authorities that are embedded in the project...

    And wait until they project is achieved; there will be statues, there will be museums where the (holy) relics are displayed (full-scale replicas of the laboratory where the first breakthrough was made), the person's childhood home may become a site people visit (make pilgrimage to), babies will be named...

    Perhaps you made it a little too personal with Randal by asking about his age and what not - I don't know - I've had good exchanges with him.

    In another thread, I made a similar mistake with someone else (that someone else was good enough to point out) so I had to backtrack and ask forgiveness.
    "...Verily the ego incites toward evil unless my Lord shows mercy: He is most Forgiving, most Merciful." (12:53)

    Peace.

    I’m actually surprised at how upset people are getting at the age thing. I think they know their generation really did make a mess of things.

    I have no problem with Randal. Highly intelligent just with the typical superficiality of the materialist. But it’s good for them to get angry, anyways. Awaken them from their lethargy lol.

    Anyways, spending too much time here is actually getting me down, lol. I’m beginning to become like a demoralized European myself – yikes!

    They do not want to recover morale – I thought they just didn’t realize one could approach life with morale, that they had lost some crucial piece of cultural knowledge.

    But it is not a piece of knowledge they are missing. As long as they are materialists, they cannot have morale.

    Meanwhile, last week I visited a Jewish friend and some Rabbi was on TV saying how literally everything is possible, because God decides everything. He was going on and on, with passion, about anything is possible.

    That’s what Jews teach their kids – no doubt Randal would find it all childish platitudes and unrealistic, a bad case of naive complacency, worse, doing harm, really.

    And so it goes.

  217. Is there a worse duo than the paki/mystic?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    In AK's blog? I can't think of any. This combination of mystical mumbojumbo and Islamic apologetics is easily the most irritating thing I've read here.
    , @Talha
    Evil Bert & Ernie?
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/S9NHFdjJ0q8/hqdefault.jpg

    Don't worry - I won't be bothering you guys in a short while - Ramadan calls...

    Peace.
    , @Anon
    Bonnie and Clyde?

    Talha's Bert and Ernie breaks down because Bert really does seem to be some sort of Islamic hardliner and Ernie is a mischievous puppet.

    A typical "Bert and Ernie" skit has Ernie coming up with a harebrained idea and Bert attempting to talk him out of it
     
    That was not entirely serious; don't take it too harshly.
  218. That’s what Jews teach their kids

    That’s what we teach our kids. It’s very important.

    Anyways, spending too much time here is actually getting me down

    Yeah – I’m clocking out in a couple of hours.

    You also said something else…

    people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can’t give it up

    Exactly – people willingly give up comfort for a higher purpose. These are just two scholars that I know from Illinois that sacrificed a lot of comfort to travel out to the deserts for the sake of sacred knowledge:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IqaAqyycvQ&feature=youtu.be&t=7s

    Now people may think that’s really stupid. And that’s totally fine – more power to you – but the question is; what do you believe is important enough to almost starve and give up indoor plumbing and wifi over? An existential threat to your people will not rouse you? And frankly, as you mentioned, the sacrifice is not something that is enormous; you are talking about raising stable families with stable marriages with traditional (non-materialist values) and networking will like-minded people on a grass-roots level to come up with social-relevant organizations that can take care of people when the chips are down.

    Peace.

    Note: I do wonder if people would be willing to go to the desert and go days on end without water to learn particle physics if that was the only place to?

  219. @DFH
    Is there a worse duo than the paki/mystic?

    In AK’s blog? I can’t think of any. This combination of mystical mumbojumbo and Islamic apologetics is easily the most irritating thing I’ve read here.

    • Replies: @Jayce
    the most irritating thing I’ve read here

    Still think all the shrill crying about how someone's not a real Russian if they don't: believe Putin is an all-powerful wizard and/or Stalin dindu nuffin and/or have sufficient enthusiasm for unrelated third-world beefs is a little worse.
  220. @DFH
    Is there a worse duo than the paki/mystic?

    Evil Bert & Ernie?

    Don’t worry – I won’t be bothering you guys in a short while – Ramadan calls…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Ramadan calls…

    24-hour internet abstinence, or only sunrise to sunset?
  221. @Randal
    Well, nationalism's complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most "nationalist" politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn "racists", "antisemites" and "homophobes", promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence - US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style "nationalists") anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

    A very astute comment on so many levels–and I say that as an American myself. You are right about Washington’s baleful influence over Britain–not to mention the rest of Europe–and so was Enoch Powell. I’m sorry. I wish things were otherwise. Strangely enough, I sometimes feel as though our own country is under some sort of occupation, too.

    • Replies: @Randal

    You are right about Washington’s baleful influence over Britain–not to mention the rest of Europe–and so was Enoch Powell
     
    Sadly it must be conceded that Bragadocious' comment is also correct, up to a point - that in effect we did this to ourselves. There's plenty of blame to go around. And I absolutely understand your feeling as an American that you yourselves are under occupation.
  222. @German_reader
    In AK's blog? I can't think of any. This combination of mystical mumbojumbo and Islamic apologetics is easily the most irritating thing I've read here.

    the most irritating thing I’ve read here

    Still think all the shrill crying about how someone’s not a real Russian if they don’t: believe Putin is an all-powerful wizard and/or Stalin dindu nuffin and/or have sufficient enthusiasm for unrelated third-world beefs is a little worse.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    I don't know, I find it easier to understand the reasoning of Stalin defenders...even if I disagree, it's still in a way part of a world I can relate to.
    Talha's thought is just completely foreign to me, as alien as a Martian. And AaronB reminds me of those con man preachers they have in America, with all their motivational talk of self-improvement. I hope he doesn't start a cult.
  223. @Jayce
    the most irritating thing I’ve read here

    Still think all the shrill crying about how someone's not a real Russian if they don't: believe Putin is an all-powerful wizard and/or Stalin dindu nuffin and/or have sufficient enthusiasm for unrelated third-world beefs is a little worse.

    I don’t know, I find it easier to understand the reasoning of Stalin defenders…even if I disagree, it’s still in a way part of a world I can relate to.
    Talha’s thought is just completely foreign to me, as alien as a Martian. And AaronB reminds me of those con man preachers they have in America, with all their motivational talk of self-improvement. I hope he doesn’t start a cult.

    • Replies: @Jayce
    And AaronB
    This is what happens when you let NEETs get their hands on poorly scanned PDFs of Guenon.
    , @iffen
    it’s still in a way part of a world I can relate to.

    Evidently you have never believed that any sort of supernatural exists.

  224. @AaronB
    This is because the alt-right completely neglects the financial basis of any revolution. They seem to think normal non heroic people will risk their lives for a slogan.

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element - if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.

    It's all very well for Vox Day to thunder denunciations from his blog, and for Steve Sailer to smirkingly point out black deficiencies on a daily basis, but the complete absence of genuine communal organization with a firm financial basis, and real communal assistance, means the movement is not serious.

    Say what you will about Jews, they understand the importance of money. I believe you Asians are also quietly amassing wealth in America - I am willing to bet some day this will become the basis for political action.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    Such practical organization would mark them as a serious movement - but right now it is merely ideological, with no capacity for practical organization. Because practical organization requires genuine communal effort, and genuine cooperation - something currently beyond the ability of whites.

    This is why I preach financial independence to all dissidents as a first principle. And it’s actually not that hard to accomplish as shown by Mr. Money Mustache.

    And really, even normies. Who the hell wants to live a life where you’re terrified of getting fired or can’t afford to replace the alternator on your truck?

    • Agree: Talha, AaronB
    • Replies: @songbird
    Financial independence certainly is important.

    Anyone with alternator problems - depends on the make - but I'd really recommend replacing it yourself. There might only be three bolts, and you probably don't need a jack, or to risk your neck getting underneath the vehicle. What you need: a cheap multimeter, a new alternator (presuming you don't want to try to repair the old one), a ratchet set, and most likely also a breaker bar. I guarantee buying all that is cheaper than going to a mechanic. And even if you don't care about the money, it feels good to be able to fix a physical problem.

    Plus, many mechanics are A-holes, anyway. I once replaced a fuel pump merely because when I talked to the guy on the phone he insulted me by saying I didn't know how to diagnose the problem properly. Felt pretty good, even though it was a hassle. And it gave me serious cheapskate bragging rights: cost me only $20.
  225. @Talha
    Evil Bert & Ernie?
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/S9NHFdjJ0q8/hqdefault.jpg

    Don't worry - I won't be bothering you guys in a short while - Ramadan calls...

    Peace.

    Ramadan calls…

    24-hour internet abstinence, or only sunrise to sunset?

    • Replies: @Talha
    Full - I'm going off the grid so to speak when it comes to forums and social media. I can't completely turn off the internet since I manage a web development team and would be fired. If I told you my planned schedule - you'd think I'm nuts if you don't already - starts at 3:00-3:15am ends at 11:30-11:45pm. Sleep is going to be a commodity hard to come by (opportunities for naps will be fully utilized) and my teachers have advised us to turn off any distractions.

    Since it's a thread about Britain...
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...

    Peace.

  226. @German_reader
    I don't know, I find it easier to understand the reasoning of Stalin defenders...even if I disagree, it's still in a way part of a world I can relate to.
    Talha's thought is just completely foreign to me, as alien as a Martian. And AaronB reminds me of those con man preachers they have in America, with all their motivational talk of self-improvement. I hope he doesn't start a cult.

    And AaronB
    This is what happens when you let NEETs get their hands on poorly scanned PDFs of Guenon.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  227. @for-the-record
    Ramadan calls…

    24-hour internet abstinence, or only sunrise to sunset?

    Full – I’m going off the grid so to speak when it comes to forums and social media. I can’t completely turn off the internet since I manage a web development team and would be fired. If I told you my planned schedule – you’d think I’m nuts if you don’t already – starts at 3:00-3:15am ends at 11:30-11:45pm. Sleep is going to be a commodity hard to come by (opportunities for naps will be fully utilized) and my teachers have advised us to turn off any distractions.

    Since it’s a thread about Britain…
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more…

    Peace.

  228. @AaronB
    I don't think that's correct.

    It's not because people are so comfortable - people are unwilling to sacrifice their comfort because they have no higher values.

    So you have it backwards - people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can't give it up.

    People have given up comfort to engage in violence. In fact, this is what your Muslim terrorist or Hamas member role models did. (Most of them had been unemployed or socially inept or petty criminals or all three, so it’s not like the majority of them gave up some high quality comfortable lifestyles with families.) Then they can become heroes in the eyes of their communities.

    What “racist” activists face is simply losing their jobs and becoming unemployed and unemployable losers, end of story. Many people are willing to become heroes fighting wars or engaging in other forms of violence. Not many people are willing to become losers.

    Basically becoming Breivik would be a possibility if it wasn’t so pointless: all he achieved, ironically, is a temporary blip in the votes of the anti-immigration party. Actually, the Muslim terrorists are engaging in pointless violence either: it doesn’t help Islam.

    Organizing a community is great advice, except if it gets traction it’ll be shut down by the authorities, because you cannot exclude other races from your community. And if you don’t exclude them, what’s the point? You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    • Replies: @Talha

    You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?
     
    The stuff the Communists did in Central Asia was far beyond what anyone in the West would legitimately even consider. One of my teachers traveled through there to visit the graves of the many, many elders of the Naqshbandi chain that rest there. The elders from those communities told him horror stories - no clue how many people disappeared. They used to teach Qur'an to groups of children locked away in hidden cavities of buildings and homes that had empty beer bottles strewn around so the authorities wouldn't be suspicious.

    Spiritual brotherhoods simply went clandestine - to arise decades later and take their prominent place in society again:
    http://fletcher.tufts.edu/~/media/Fletcher/Microsites/praxis/xvi/Gaziev.pdf

    But this requires vision far, far beyond what is directly in front of one - and a conviction that the clouds will inevitably pass. Pessimism is death. You are basically saying; it's too difficult so there's no use in the struggle.

    And again - there is no need for violence as it is counterproductive.

    Peace.

    , @AaronB
    I understand there are threats to job etc - what I am saying is a truly motivated nationalist movement would figure out ways to organize financially so as to mitigate this threat, and would be willing to take some financial hits.

    You are suggesting people may be willing to die heroically, but not live lives of grinding poverty for a cause. This is not true. Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life. But they prefer poverty, pursuing a dream that's impossible by any rational standard. History is full of these examples.

    Not to mention, there is no such thing as grinding poverty in the West. Basically, you're saying everyone is super motivated - as motivated as anyone in history - but just aren't willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn't what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    So - this unemployed loser nonsense needs to go. Be prepared to take financial hits and live simply anyways. Look at Thorffinnson Mr Money Mustache site - the guy is voluntarily living the way you say people are terrified of having to if they are cut off financially.

    Look, you're not the first group to face a difficult situation - all sorts of "impossible" scenarios became reality because determined and motivated people didn't give up.

    The practical barriers are not the issue here. They can all be overcome.

    You need motivation and an end to individualism and materialism.

    The spiritual issues have to be dealt with first, then you can focus on the practical issues.

    You would be amazed at how having "skin in the game" can sharpen the intellect. You can't even imagine now the resourceful and creativd solutions you'd come up once you're seriously motivated.

    I have seen this in my work time and again. A "stupid" person who under performs suddenly becomes quite capable once I figure out a way to get him motivated. We are also learning about the role of effort in enhancing IQ.
  229. @Thorfinnsson
    This is why I preach financial independence to all dissidents as a first principle. And it's actually not that hard to accomplish as shown by Mr. Money Mustache.

    And really, even normies. Who the hell wants to live a life where you're terrified of getting fired or can't afford to replace the alternator on your truck?

    Financial independence certainly is important.

    Anyone with alternator problems – depends on the make – but I’d really recommend replacing it yourself. There might only be three bolts, and you probably don’t need a jack, or to risk your neck getting underneath the vehicle. What you need: a cheap multimeter, a new alternator (presuming you don’t want to try to repair the old one), a ratchet set, and most likely also a breaker bar. I guarantee buying all that is cheaper than going to a mechanic. And even if you don’t care about the money, it feels good to be able to fix a physical problem.

    Plus, many mechanics are A-holes, anyway. I once replaced a fuel pump merely because when I talked to the guy on the phone he insulted me by saying I didn’t know how to diagnose the problem properly. Felt pretty good, even though it was a hassle. And it gave me serious cheapskate bragging rights: cost me only $20.

  230. @German_reader
    I don't know, I find it easier to understand the reasoning of Stalin defenders...even if I disagree, it's still in a way part of a world I can relate to.
    Talha's thought is just completely foreign to me, as alien as a Martian. And AaronB reminds me of those con man preachers they have in America, with all their motivational talk of self-improvement. I hope he doesn't start a cult.

    it’s still in a way part of a world I can relate to.

    Evidently you have never believed that any sort of supernatural exists.

  231. @reiner Tor
    People have given up comfort to engage in violence. In fact, this is what your Muslim terrorist or Hamas member role models did. (Most of them had been unemployed or socially inept or petty criminals or all three, so it’s not like the majority of them gave up some high quality comfortable lifestyles with families.) Then they can become heroes in the eyes of their communities.

    What “racist” activists face is simply losing their jobs and becoming unemployed and unemployable losers, end of story. Many people are willing to become heroes fighting wars or engaging in other forms of violence. Not many people are willing to become losers.

    Basically becoming Breivik would be a possibility if it wasn’t so pointless: all he achieved, ironically, is a temporary blip in the votes of the anti-immigration party. Actually, the Muslim terrorists are engaging in pointless violence either: it doesn’t help Islam.

    Organizing a community is great advice, except if it gets traction it’ll be shut down by the authorities, because you cannot exclude other races from your community. And if you don’t exclude them, what’s the point? You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    The stuff the Communists did in Central Asia was far beyond what anyone in the West would legitimately even consider. One of my teachers traveled through there to visit the graves of the many, many elders of the Naqshbandi chain that rest there. The elders from those communities told him horror stories – no clue how many people disappeared. They used to teach Qur’an to groups of children locked away in hidden cavities of buildings and homes that had empty beer bottles strewn around so the authorities wouldn’t be suspicious.

    Spiritual brotherhoods simply went clandestine – to arise decades later and take their prominent place in society again:
    http://fletcher.tufts.edu/~/media/Fletcher/Microsites/praxis/xvi/Gaziev.pdf

    But this requires vision far, far beyond what is directly in front of one – and a conviction that the clouds will inevitably pass. Pessimism is death. You are basically saying; it’s too difficult so there’s no use in the struggle.

    And again – there is no need for violence as it is counterproductive.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    We’re obviously talking about middle class welfare societies and western Muslims, not some Soviet republics with medieval economies. The surveillance alone is much easier, there will be video recordings or leaked emails to prove your hidden thoughts, something unavailable for the communists.

    You are also talking about existing communities going underground. Not organizing new communities from scratch.


    You are basically saying
     
    I wrote what I wrote.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    But in the UK (and for all I know in the US) Muslims and other minorities are privileged under law. We don't live in Central Asia, either geographically or mentally.

    Equality now is literally defined as NOT treating everyone the same - you can have a housing project for Muslims only but not for Christians only. Muslims and Jews get to the front of the queue for death certificates, because their culture and religion requires quick burial, but a Christian baker in Belfast HAS to bake cakes bearing pro-homosexual slogans and never mind his culture or religion.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43922000
  232. @DFH
    Compare and contrast

    https://crimethroughtimecollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/oswald_mosley_10_march_1940_worldwartwo-filminspector-com_1.jpg

    https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Yorkshire_NF.jpg

    https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article1691076.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/DSC_93930002903087860.jpg

    It’s like they’re all under arrest already, and somehow don’t realize it.

  233. @DFH
    Clive and Wellington fought plenty of other straight battles in which they defeated Oudh, the Mughals, Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc. without paying anyone off.

    Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.
     
    Who was replaced and reinstalled several times (with the East India Company taking some districts) until Bengal was actually conquered, which Clive fought more battles with the Mughal emperor to defend

    Tipu Sultan & the Marathas were French agents. Defence not conquest. Oudh, give you. Wellesley was a typical ambitious general who wanted wars.

  234. @Philip Owen
    Hitler was a vegan. The ariosophy thing includes the whole hippy package. Too intellectual for the EDL though.

    Hitler was a vegan.

    On the contrary, he was a vegetarian. He didn’t have any silly aversion to dairy, eggs, honey, etc.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    His vegetarianism was an exaggeration, as was his teetotalism. He deliberately encouraged this exaggeration to cultivate an ascetic image.

    For instance on the day Prague fell to Germany, the H-man celebrated with ham and pilsner-- both specialties from Prague.
  235. @Talha

    You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?
     
    The stuff the Communists did in Central Asia was far beyond what anyone in the West would legitimately even consider. One of my teachers traveled through there to visit the graves of the many, many elders of the Naqshbandi chain that rest there. The elders from those communities told him horror stories - no clue how many people disappeared. They used to teach Qur'an to groups of children locked away in hidden cavities of buildings and homes that had empty beer bottles strewn around so the authorities wouldn't be suspicious.

    Spiritual brotherhoods simply went clandestine - to arise decades later and take their prominent place in society again:
    http://fletcher.tufts.edu/~/media/Fletcher/Microsites/praxis/xvi/Gaziev.pdf

    But this requires vision far, far beyond what is directly in front of one - and a conviction that the clouds will inevitably pass. Pessimism is death. You are basically saying; it's too difficult so there's no use in the struggle.

    And again - there is no need for violence as it is counterproductive.

    Peace.

    We’re obviously talking about middle class welfare societies and western Muslims, not some Soviet republics with medieval economies. The surveillance alone is much easier, there will be video recordings or leaked emails to prove your hidden thoughts, something unavailable for the communists.

    You are also talking about existing communities going underground. Not organizing new communities from scratch.

    You are basically saying

    I wrote what I wrote.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Well - I guess you're toast then. ;)

    Peace.
    , @German_reader
    Good example for what nationalists in large parts of Europe are facing is what's currently happening with the identitarians in Austria...although they're completely non-violent, a leftie prosecutor is now trying to get them for allegedly having founded a criminal organization. The rationale is probably to bankrupt them through trial expenses.
    Their leader Martin Sellner can't even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa. His private car has also been torched by Antifa.
    The game is definitely rigged against any form of organized right-wing dissent.
  236. @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Hitler was a vegan.
     
    On the contrary, he was a vegetarian. He didn't have any silly aversion to dairy, eggs, honey, etc.

    His vegetarianism was an exaggeration, as was his teetotalism. He deliberately encouraged this exaggeration to cultivate an ascetic image.

    For instance on the day Prague fell to Germany, the H-man celebrated with ham and pilsner– both specialties from Prague.

  237. @reiner Tor
    People have given up comfort to engage in violence. In fact, this is what your Muslim terrorist or Hamas member role models did. (Most of them had been unemployed or socially inept or petty criminals or all three, so it’s not like the majority of them gave up some high quality comfortable lifestyles with families.) Then they can become heroes in the eyes of their communities.

    What “racist” activists face is simply losing their jobs and becoming unemployed and unemployable losers, end of story. Many people are willing to become heroes fighting wars or engaging in other forms of violence. Not many people are willing to become losers.

    Basically becoming Breivik would be a possibility if it wasn’t so pointless: all he achieved, ironically, is a temporary blip in the votes of the anti-immigration party. Actually, the Muslim terrorists are engaging in pointless violence either: it doesn’t help Islam.

    Organizing a community is great advice, except if it gets traction it’ll be shut down by the authorities, because you cannot exclude other races from your community. And if you don’t exclude them, what’s the point? You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    I understand there are threats to job etc – what I am saying is a truly motivated nationalist movement would figure out ways to organize financially so as to mitigate this threat, and would be willing to take some financial hits.

    You are suggesting people may be willing to die heroically, but not live lives of grinding poverty for a cause. This is not true. Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life. But they prefer poverty, pursuing a dream that’s impossible by any rational standard. History is full of these examples.

    Not to mention, there is no such thing as grinding poverty in the West. Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history – but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    So – this unemployed loser nonsense needs to go. Be prepared to take financial hits and live simply anyways. Look at Thorffinnson Mr Money Mustache site – the guy is voluntarily living the way you say people are terrified of having to if they are cut off financially.

    Look, you’re not the first group to face a difficult situation – all sorts of “impossible” scenarios became reality because determined and motivated people didn’t give up.

    The practical barriers are not the issue here. They can all be overcome.

    You need motivation and an end to individualism and materialism.

    The spiritual issues have to be dealt with first, then you can focus on the practical issues.

    You would be amazed at how having “skin in the game” can sharpen the intellect. You can’t even imagine now the resourceful and creativd solutions you’d come up once you’re seriously motivated.

    I have seen this in my work time and again. A “stupid” person who under performs suddenly becomes quite capable once I figure out a way to get him motivated. We are also learning about the role of effort in enhancing IQ.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life.
     
    That’s not much of a choice for ordinary Gazans. The choice is accept the lower quality of life or face retribution from others for being a traitor while still not being accepted by Israel.

    What if you tried to think of a better example?

    Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history –
     
    You are fighting a straw man. There are enough motivated young men who join movements like identitarians. They cannot get much traction, because that kind of activism has always been for a minority only. I got annoyed at idiotic comparisons with totally non-comparable situations, like you are doing.

    I have seen the fall of communism as a teenager. It was easier in part because the communists never provided enough material comfort to people (enough means more than the ideological opponents in Western Europe), and people didn’t like “what historically would be considered obsene opulence”. It was also easier because it was obviously forced on the country by foreign invaders at gunpoint.

    But the dynamics weren’t that different: very few people were joining the opposition, and they were constantly harassed and lost their jobs (oh, Soros paid them money, so some then dissidents have now admitted that their living standards actually didn’t even decrease at all), but no one was executed or put into forced labor camps. A few people might have been locked up (like now), but not many.

    And then suddenly the system collapsed. We now know it was because of a loss of morale at the very top in the USSR. We can only hope that the very top of the American empire will similarly become progressively more and more stupid. It looks likely it will, but there’s no telling when it will collapse. Could come suddenly, but might take decades. I’d say a couple of decades. I don’t know how late it will be for our civilization by then.

    but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.
     
    You don’t seem to understand humans, despite having almost twenty-five years of life experience.
  238. @Philip Owen
    Hitler was a vegan. The ariosophy thing includes the whole hippy package. Too intellectual for the EDL though.

    A strange and weird aspect of the Volkisch movement.

    Maybe things were different then, but I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.

    • Replies: @Talha

    I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.
     
    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/774/c54650b7278f88a3eeaa7aa7d5fce4f7.jpg

    And on that note - salaam to y'all.
  239. @reiner Tor
    We’re obviously talking about middle class welfare societies and western Muslims, not some Soviet republics with medieval economies. The surveillance alone is much easier, there will be video recordings or leaked emails to prove your hidden thoughts, something unavailable for the communists.

    You are also talking about existing communities going underground. Not organizing new communities from scratch.


    You are basically saying
     
    I wrote what I wrote.

    Well – I guess you’re toast then. 😉

    Peace.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    My daughter is only half-white theoretically (though everyone is surprised when I tell them, so for the moment she looks white). Maybe I'm personally not toast.

    Anyway, since nationalists are in such a weak position now, their hope lies mostly in their enemies making mistakes. The system oppressing them is not sustainable anyway, so over time it will collapse. It's a question what will be salvaged from the rubble.
  240. @Matra
    It must drive you "Irish" Americans crazy to know that your cousins in Ireland overwhelmingly prefer British music, TV shows, and sports to the alternatives on offer from your side of the Atlantic and for the most part don't have all these hang-ups about big, bad Anglos. That said, you are correct on this occasion. The cultural pollution produced by Britain these days is every bit as disgusting, degenerate, and naff as anything coming out of the USA.

    Philip Owen - If I'm not mistaken a prominent member of Plaid Cymru once sneered at the Welsh assembly for being 'too white', or words to that effect. So-called Celtic nationalist parties are a joke. Apparently, the Breton (also Celtic) nationalists are leftists too.

    Not quite. I observed something along the lines that the Welsh Assembly is devoted to virtue signalling of a leftist sort.

    Plaid Cymru is useless. A nationalist party that doesn’t want independence! They try to be more socialist than Labour. That’s why UKIP, at least as Welsh Nationalist (at least some of them) has overtaken them.

  241. @reiner Tor
    We’re obviously talking about middle class welfare societies and western Muslims, not some Soviet republics with medieval economies. The surveillance alone is much easier, there will be video recordings or leaked emails to prove your hidden thoughts, something unavailable for the communists.

    You are also talking about existing communities going underground. Not organizing new communities from scratch.


    You are basically saying
     
    I wrote what I wrote.

    Good example for what nationalists in large parts of Europe are facing is what’s currently happening with the identitarians in Austria…although they’re completely non-violent, a leftie prosecutor is now trying to get them for allegedly having founded a criminal organization. The rationale is probably to bankrupt them through trial expenses.
    Their leader Martin Sellner can’t even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa. His private car has also been torched by Antifa.
    The game is definitely rigged against any form of organized right-wing dissent.

    • Replies: @songbird

    Their leader Martin Sellner can’t even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa.
     
    That is an angle I had never considered before: most countries don't have many banks.

    I knew a German who came to America during the mid '90s. Something he said about America that I thought was a good observation is that there are a lot of banks and churches. It is definitely less true today, but still quite true when compared to other countries, even Canada, which has very few banks in comparison.
    , @reiner Tor
    It's also difficult for these identitarians to go violent.

    Violent against whom? Attacking the Antifa would get many members into jail (and into cells with Muslims), while Antifa are only lowly enforcers of the system. Violence against government ministers is difficult (there's a reason why Muslims almost never do that). Besides, any violence will be used as a pretext to crack down on all forms of right wing agitation or organizations. It will also be used in propaganda to elicit sympathy for the "innocent victims" (even if they were violent Antifa members or government ministers or public prosecutors who started and conducted campaigns to destroy the lives of peaceful activists). In any event, Islam is not getting stronger because of the violence (rather despite of it), so it seems pointless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    In Hungary Orbán has cracked down on Jobbik (his authorities fined it so much that now it cannot afford to participate in a by-election, albeit it's in Budapest where Jobbik has little chances anyway), this is one of the reasons why Jobbik was increasingly drifting to the left.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-"racism" and even anti-evolution, too. Maybe that's not a big disadvantage, but it could well end up as a dead end: any institution or movement which is not explicitly racialist will end up being equalitarian and so useless.

  242. @Thorfinnsson
    A strange and weird aspect of the Volkisch movement.

    Maybe things were different then, but I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.

    I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.

    And on that note – salaam to y’all.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    You mean salami?
  243. @Greasy William

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.
     
    Fine then. Let's talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.

    I believe that Trump can only stave off the inevitable. To ‘save’ the country, however, as you mention, is extremely difficult.

    The simple truth is that “demographics are destiny”. Right now, non-Hispanic whites are right around 50% of the newborn births. And they’ve been below 60% since at least the 1990’s. America’s white demographics are artificially inflated by boomers and the silent generation. 50% born in America… citizens… for life. Barring ethnic cleansing, civil war, or secession, these 50% non-white will forever be a part of the USA.

    Now, the bright side. The one thing I agree with leftist on, is access to birth control, family planning, and abortion, if purely for demographic reasons. Progressive states such as Colorado are seeing massive reductions in black births, and Hispanic births are decreasing horrendously in California. New stats today showed that the black birthrate has declined by 9%, while Hispanic and Native are 18 and 27%, respectively. Asian birth rate is always low, just like in the mainland. Calling to ‘so-cons’… white people already have access to abortion and birth control whether you like it or not… their birth rates will not go down materially.

    SO… I have a slight glimmer of hope for the USA… but that immigration really needs to be cut right now. Wall needs to be built immediately. And thirdly, but most importantly, white people need to start having more babies. Their numbers aren’t terrible in the USA, but not nearly good enough. I do see potential in a white renaissance in the USA among the young generation. They get mocked for being “SJW” but in fact nobody mocks “SJWs” more than people under 25. Some young white people (men) are waking up. And I’m not talking about the slobbering ‘alt-right’ losers. At the very least young white men are more open to traditional values such as fatherhood. Baby steps.

    Self deportation is a real thing. Thousands of aliens are now coming to Canada from the USA. At a detriment to myself, of course, but Canada is a non-entity, and I would much rather preserve America for whites than Canada. If the USA did make a white comeback, Canada would potentially follow, although this country is totally off the rails in terms of immigration. It may be too late (it’s not too late for USA or Britain).

    Time will tell, I give it 10%. Chances of a USA recovery are very slim, and are almost entirely contingent on one (buffoonish, flawed, and erratic) man, Donald J. Trump. It’s unclear whether he is even aware of s uch demographic realities, or if he truly believes in ‘civic nationalism’. Eastern Europe is not a ‘saviour’, though. If the USA becomes fully pozzed, they are toast.

    God bless you, Donald Trump, and the American people. You are my last hope. Not by choice, I think you are a tool, but nonetheless I have thrown my weight behind you. What other choice do we have? Dick Spencer? hahaha.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou. Having lived in both America and Western Europe, Americans really have very little to complain about regarding Mexicans. I'm with Ron Unz or that deep and profound philosopher of our times, Fred Reed, in this regard.
    , @Svigor
    One thing that I find missing from these (genuinely in-the-ballpark-correct) analyses is the iron law of minority status: as groups become minorities, their behavior changes dramatically. They start building walls around themselves. They start thinking of themselves as a people. They start monitoring how they're treated by other groups, and reciprocating. Fighting for their share of the pie. Become endogamous. It's a pretty big silver lining.

    I suspect it's how every particularist (I'm looking at you, Jews) group was born.

    I think there is some subset of Whites (5%, 10%*) that is inherently ethnonationalist. Despite having the entire shoe stacked against us, White ethnonationalism is a growth industry. This will only accelerate as Whites slide into minority status.

    *Whatever the share, they will take a much larger group of squishier Whites with them; their DNA-ethnonationalism will spawn cultural ethnonationalism that will recruit other Whites, who otherwise would not be ethnonationalist, to the tribe.

    What I'm saying is that I think there's a hard floor on how far White populations will dwindle.

  244. @German_reader

    Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population
     
    Trump is going to "destroy" America's immigrant population?
    You're really a master troll (I mean that as a compliment).

    See my reply to him, it sort of details my thinking on what could possibly happen.

  245. @Another German Reader
    @ 2cents to Talha:

    - The Saudis will either modernize or they will collapse. Anyway they will be less able to finance their intepretation of Islam. The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    - Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable (Morocco's growth depending on good harvests.) or already can't feed themselves (Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Algeria). Same as the Saudis: deep reform or collapse/civil war.

    - If collapse/war happens that means another million men march towards Europe and that means electoral wins for the far-right. That will shut the door permantly.

    -If deep reforms happens that will automatically leads to a slow secularization process.

    - Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries and will have the resources for soft-power. Just like SKorea currently with its' KPop-wave. That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.


    - PAX CONFUCIUS. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Vietnamese will have less patience and have less qualms from bitchslapping any terror-supporting governments and/or letting people starve to death, who do not toe the new Asian-consensus-line.

    Arabs will not able to piggyback on their wealth like they could with the Euros. When the remittance-flow from EU dries up, it will be endgame.

    It is not the Euros, who will be squeezed but Arabs and SS-Africans. Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Cheers

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

    Pardon my french, but that is a whopping load of horse shit. 2.6M were born in 2015, compared to 2.5M in 2017. The fertility rate dropped from around 3.5 children per woman, to 3.1, staying well above replacement. Unless you have some crazy obscure source, I think you’re pulling this out of tes fesses.

    PS Here is my source:http://www.capmas.gov.eg/pdf/EgyptInFigure/EgyptinFigures/Tables/English/vital/vital%20statistics/index.html

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    Mae culpa,

    i just read the ticker-headline on some other site a few weeks ago. But radio-broadcast from one of the public-channel states that Al-Sisi reintroduced the family-program and most importantly rolls it out to the rural communes. We will see how fast it goes down. After all the Tiger economies needed 20 years.
  246. @Greasy William
    3 Dem incumbents lost primary to Berniecrat insurgents tonight. This is a huge defeat for the DNC and shows that nothing can stop the Corbynization of the Democratic party.

    The global elite are scared of the Bernie-tards, don’t you forget it. That’s why they are making such a push on social justice issues – they need to satisfy the brain dead leftists.

  247. @German_reader
    Good example for what nationalists in large parts of Europe are facing is what's currently happening with the identitarians in Austria...although they're completely non-violent, a leftie prosecutor is now trying to get them for allegedly having founded a criminal organization. The rationale is probably to bankrupt them through trial expenses.
    Their leader Martin Sellner can't even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa. His private car has also been torched by Antifa.
    The game is definitely rigged against any form of organized right-wing dissent.

    Their leader Martin Sellner can’t even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa.

    That is an angle I had never considered before: most countries don’t have many banks.

    I knew a German who came to America during the mid ’90s. Something he said about America that I thought was a good observation is that there are a lot of banks and churches. It is definitely less true today, but still quite true when compared to other countries, even Canada, which has very few banks in comparison.

  248. @Talha

    it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.
     
    Good point, there are always exceptions to the general rule.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago.
     
    I will agree - and the degree to which individualistic, hyper-consumerist values penetrate those traditional societies, these kinds of experiences will become less and less.

    I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.
     
    That certainly does help from taking the plunge. It is, after all, predicated on belief. If one believes God considers it to be a grave sin, then one necessarily believes in God, then one incorporates that belief in God into how they cope or make coherence out of a given situation:
    “If God loves a people, then He afflicts them with trials. Whoever is patient has the reward of patience, and whoever is impatient has the fault of impatience." - Musnad of Imam Ahmad

    I remember coming across this survey a while back on the subject...very telling:
    https://netecr.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/screenshot-2017-09-15-10-32-23.png

    However, it is a few decades old - I would like to see how numbers have changed, if at all since then.

    This spiritual guide, in the Dharmic tradition, says he wouldn't be surprised if we see a deluge of people checking out within our lifetimes:
    https://youtu.be/FZPF9tFRYYM?t=1m29s

    Goes back to that quote I posted from Dostoevsky:
    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.”

    People can disagree of course.

    Now the reason I brought up that Moroccan example to contrast the Azerbaijani one is that to point out that the convert guy was obviously moved by what he saw in contrast to the society he lived in and it completely caused him to reevaluate his own beliefs and priorities. Do you think he would have been similarly moved to rethink anything on an existential level by going into a Muslim society which is basically built up of brown people doing a half-baked job of imitating Europeans? It's amusing, but that's about it.

    Peace.

    Thanks.

    I see you’re offline or something but does anyone know anything about the source of that graph? I find it interesting but I can think of several methods of compiling that data none of which are ideal.

  249. ‘Islamism’ is the very core of… Islam. I cannot but wonder why people constantly fail to see what is in plain view. It would be enough to shuffle through their sacred book to see that. Islam has its own dynamic which is to Islamize the world (i.e. to erase Christianity and ‘secularism’ and make everyone raise their bottoms five times a day), even if at times the Jews, or the British, or the French, or the Americans, believe that they can manipulate this dynamic for their own purposes (usually against their own Christian fellows, Russians for example), without realizing that they do that at their own peril (what we see in Europe).

    • Agree: utu, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    IslamiStIslamist movements have taken off as a reaction against Western dominance not out of some insane scheme to convert the world. The entry of US troops into Saudi Arabia set Bin Laden off in targeting Westerners for attacks, similarly you usually see a spike in terrorist attacks when one Muslim country or another is being bombed by the West. The dominant narrative of Islamists is that Islam is being attacked on all sides by those who want to eliminate Muslims not world conquest.

    The Muslim practice of prayer was borrowed from Eastern Orthodox Christians who similarly raise their bottoms in the air as you term it to prostrate themselves before the Almighty.

  250. @AaronB
    I'm against the Enlightenment and for "obscurantism".

    I think modernity is a mistake - I want us to go "backwards".

    As such, I view Islam - in some of its historical versions - as far better suited to healthy human living than the modern world. The modern world is perhaps the worst society that ever existed.

    Now, I'm not saying you have to like Islam - there are many other religions to choose from.

    So choose some other, better religion and stop shilling for islam. I think Western-style quasi-Buddhism would fit you.

    Islam only makes countries more backwards – which is detrimental to the acceleration of technological development that is the only way we can truly discover a true divine being.

    Deserts are merely wastelands, which is what obscurantist islam will turn Europe into if this southern volkerwanderung isn’t stopped. Why make the aim of technological revelation that much harder for the industrial and post-industrial world to achieve?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I don't shill for Islam - I just don't think it's terrible, and I think any religion is better than modern secularism. Most of the animosity towards Islam is driven by secularism - so I defend Islam in that context. If we were debating the merits of Islam or Buddhism, I may say different things.

    Not do I have any interest in technological advance. Not against it, I just don't think it's hugely important. However, I respect those like Karin and Chieh who see technology as basically a transcendent religious project - those who see it merely as comfort, bore me.

    Western style Buddhism is terrible - fake, superficial, and completely gets it wrong.

    Buddhism was tried in Europe and failed, it's only popular among a minority. It's ultimately too mystical for the dry, factual, concrete European mind, which needs something to grasp onto - while Buddhism says you should relinquish all ideas and not take logic too seriously. Europeans wallow in ideas. Maybe in the future, after the collapse, Europeans will be more receptive to Buddhism.

    Mysticism was always a somewhat marginal movement in the west, although it had periods where it was more popular, while mysticism is the very basis of religion in Asia.

    Sufism manages to combine mysticism with more concrete elements, making it more suitable for occidentals. Orthodox Christianity is also more mystical but with enough concrete elements to appeal to occidentals.

    Old-school Catholicism might also do very well - and may be the most suitable for the Western mind.

    Protestantism and Mormonism seem very low on the religious scale to me, very materialistic and full of ego, but even they are better than nothing.

    The point is, different forms of spirituality are suitable for different people - if you are capable of little spirituality, then maybe Mormonism or Judaism is suitable for you. If higher, then maybe Buddhism or Taoism.
  251. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH
    Is there a worse duo than the paki/mystic?

    Bonnie and Clyde?

    Talha’s Bert and Ernie breaks down because Bert really does seem to be some sort of Islamic hardliner and Ernie is a mischievous puppet.

    A typical “Bert and Ernie” skit has Ernie coming up with a harebrained idea and Bert attempting to talk him out of it

    That was not entirely serious; don’t take it too harshly.

  252. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    I believe that Trump can only stave off the inevitable. To 'save' the country, however, as you mention, is extremely difficult.

    The simple truth is that "demographics are destiny". Right now, non-Hispanic whites are right around 50% of the newborn births. And they've been below 60% since at least the 1990's. America's white demographics are artificially inflated by boomers and the silent generation. 50% born in America... citizens... for life. Barring ethnic cleansing, civil war, or secession, these 50% non-white will forever be a part of the USA.

    Now, the bright side. The one thing I agree with leftist on, is access to birth control, family planning, and abortion, if purely for demographic reasons. Progressive states such as Colorado are seeing massive reductions in black births, and Hispanic births are decreasing horrendously in California. New stats today showed that the black birthrate has declined by 9%, while Hispanic and Native are 18 and 27%, respectively. Asian birth rate is always low, just like in the mainland. Calling to 'so-cons'... white people already have access to abortion and birth control whether you like it or not... their birth rates will not go down materially.

    SO... I have a slight glimmer of hope for the USA... but that immigration really needs to be cut right now. Wall needs to be built immediately. And thirdly, but most importantly, white people need to start having more babies. Their numbers aren't terrible in the USA, but not nearly good enough. I do see potential in a white renaissance in the USA among the young generation. They get mocked for being "SJW" but in fact nobody mocks "SJWs" more than people under 25. Some young white people (men) are waking up. And I'm not talking about the slobbering 'alt-right' losers. At the very least young white men are more open to traditional values such as fatherhood. Baby steps.

    Self deportation is a real thing. Thousands of aliens are now coming to Canada from the USA. At a detriment to myself, of course, but Canada is a non-entity, and I would much rather preserve America for whites than Canada. If the USA did make a white comeback, Canada would potentially follow, although this country is totally off the rails in terms of immigration. It may be too late (it's not too late for USA or Britain).

    Time will tell, I give it 10%. Chances of a USA recovery are very slim, and are almost entirely contingent on one (buffoonish, flawed, and erratic) man, Donald J. Trump. It's unclear whether he is even aware of s uch demographic realities, or if he truly believes in 'civic nationalism'. Eastern Europe is not a 'saviour', though. If the USA becomes fully pozzed, they are toast.

    God bless you, Donald Trump, and the American people. You are my last hope. Not by choice, I think you are a tool, but nonetheless I have thrown my weight behind you. What other choice do we have? Dick Spencer? hahaha.

    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou. Having lived in both America and Western Europe, Americans really have very little to complain about regarding Mexicans. I’m with Ron Unz or that deep and profound philosopher of our times, Fred Reed, in this regard.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Come on.

    Mestizos are short, ugly, dull, and vote Democrat. Ron Unz grandly proved that they're not as criminal as blacks. Big whoop.

    Damning with faint praise.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it's obscene to have them around.

    , @neutral

    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou.
     
    Lets put it this way: would you be ok with Eastern Europe being majority Mexican? If not then how can you expect other whites to be ok with it?
  253. @TheJester

    Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.
     
    Agree that Britain is pretty much gone. Many of the nationalities in the EU face growing problems in sustaining a sense of nationhood in the face of massive immigration -- Britain, Sweden, France, Belgium. However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    Please welcome Britain as the first member of the Globalist Commonwealth of Something ... the world's first homogeneous something dedicated to the celebration of LGTBxyz lifestyles available only to vegans and Wiccans. I know, this seems inconsistent with BREXIT. Go figure!

    We just returned from a vacation in Ireland. Fantastic people; excellent food. The take among some of the Irish we talked to is that Britain is leaving the EU to protect its welfare system from Africans, Eastern Europeans, and Caribbean Blacks who are stealing them blind. The Irish are closer to the scene; perhaps they have a better take on what is really going on.

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state. The truth comes out! All of the platitudes about globalism and human rights aside, the Swedes are primarily concerned about who finances their pensions and takes care of them in their old age.

    Seems that this was the same argument for opening the US borders to millions of Hispanics ... to pump and sustain what's left of the Social Security System.

    I detect a global trend:

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
    4. Women no longer have the time or interest to bear children (who would take care of them?).
    5. The demographic supporting the welfare state implodes as the population ages and dies.
    6. Eureka! Open the borders to millions (or is it billions?) of immigrants who will hopefully work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state.

    What! The new immigrants don't work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state? Instead, they also milk the welfare system to get their fair share until nothing is left. Oh, gracious! Sounds like a global Ponzi scheme to me.

    Nationalism aside, I guess we need a completely new model for the organization and functioning of the state in a post-industrial world.

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.

    You’ve got history backwards. Poverty brought women into the workforce way before welfare existed, and obviously not everyone had a man who could support them. Here’s a blog about Victorian laundresses:

    Since washing and ironing were such exhausting exercise, every housewife dreamed of just taking dirty clothes to the laundry. Those who became laundresses were elderly women, widows or housewives who needed additional income. Husbands of the latter were often seasonal workers with unstable income, disabled people or alcoholics, so the wife had to take the provider function upon herself.
    https://b-a-n-s-h-e-e.livejournal.com/243027.html

    We all may have read (if Russian, were forced to at school) how Dostoyevsky’s Sonya Marmeladova became a seamstress and then a prostitute because her alcoholic father couldn’t provide. And here’s a story about proto-welfare introduced in a factory to alleviate existing conditions of female workers, from Vikenty Veresaev’s Notes of a Doctor.

    In the 1820s, according to Villermé’s research, half of the children of Mühlhausen’s women weavers died before the age of fifteen months. Villermé convinced factory owner Dolfus to let his workers stay home after childbirth for six weeks with their wages kept; this alone was enough to cut infant mortality in half, at once, without any help of medicine.

    What were the fathers of those babies doing, is unknown. I wonder what the weavers would say to Americans who think paid maternity leave is an evil commie thing… some colorful German swearing probably.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Poverty didn't bring women into the workforce at all. Women were always part of the workforce. In hunter-gatherer times women gathered, and in agricultural times peasant women did all kinds of work.

    Women not working was traditionally only the province of upper class women, who did a lot of "work" in terms of their socializing. Middle and working class women not working was a brief blip of the unusual and unnatural egalitarianism of the postwar era.

    The issue isn't women working so much as it is female independence, and women focusing on careers before is a symptom of that. And, to be fair, men now being able to access sex easily (or things close enough to sex) outside of marriage.

    Paid maternity leave would be fine if it had eugenic rules associated with it and strictly went to babies born to married parents. I have a pet idea that paid maternity leave should be required but it should also be perfectly legal to discriminate against women and pregnancy. :)
  254. @Yevardian
    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou. Having lived in both America and Western Europe, Americans really have very little to complain about regarding Mexicans. I'm with Ron Unz or that deep and profound philosopher of our times, Fred Reed, in this regard.

    Come on.

    Mestizos are short, ugly, dull, and vote Democrat. Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks. Big whoop.

    Damning with faint praise.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around.

    • Replies: @AP

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks
     
    They also don't blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around
     
    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don't have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
    , @Anonymous
    Hehehe.

    Spoken like a true Hindu. Indians are also short, ugly, and vote democrat.

    Too bad they are so rapey or else this comparison would be closer.

    Also, Indians are not worth keeping as slaves so you need to go back.
  255. @Toronto Russian

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
     
    You've got history backwards. Poverty brought women into the workforce way before welfare existed, and obviously not everyone had a man who could support them. Here's a blog about Victorian laundresses:

    Since washing and ironing were such exhausting exercise, every housewife dreamed of just taking dirty clothes to the laundry. Those who became laundresses were elderly women, widows or housewives who needed additional income. Husbands of the latter were often seasonal workers with unstable income, disabled people or alcoholics, so the wife had to take the provider function upon herself.
    https://b-a-n-s-h-e-e.livejournal.com/243027.html
     
    We all may have read (if Russian, were forced to at school) how Dostoyevsky's Sonya Marmeladova became a seamstress and then a prostitute because her alcoholic father couldn't provide. And here's a story about proto-welfare introduced in a factory to alleviate existing conditions of female workers, from Vikenty Veresaev's Notes of a Doctor.

    In the 1820s, according to Villermé's research, half of the children of Mühlhausen's women weavers died before the age of fifteen months. Villermé convinced factory owner Dolfus to let his workers stay home after childbirth for six weeks with their wages kept; this alone was enough to cut infant mortality in half, at once, without any help of medicine.
     
    What were the fathers of those babies doing, is unknown. I wonder what the weavers would say to Americans who think paid maternity leave is an evil commie thing... some colorful German swearing probably.

    Poverty didn’t bring women into the workforce at all. Women were always part of the workforce. In hunter-gatherer times women gathered, and in agricultural times peasant women did all kinds of work.

    Women not working was traditionally only the province of upper class women, who did a lot of “work” in terms of their socializing. Middle and working class women not working was a brief blip of the unusual and unnatural egalitarianism of the postwar era.

    The issue isn’t women working so much as it is female independence, and women focusing on careers before is a symptom of that. And, to be fair, men now being able to access sex easily (or things close enough to sex) outside of marriage.

    Paid maternity leave would be fine if it had eugenic rules associated with it and strictly went to babies born to married parents. I have a pet idea that paid maternity leave should be required but it should also be perfectly legal to discriminate against women and pregnancy. 🙂

  256. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Come on.

    Mestizos are short, ugly, dull, and vote Democrat. Ron Unz grandly proved that they're not as criminal as blacks. Big whoop.

    Damning with faint praise.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it's obscene to have them around.

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago.
     
    Cuckservative and liberal meme. The mestizos are racially different, lower IQ, more violent, socially less conservative (what was the illegitimacy rate among those Italians?), with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms, the assimilation was still not complete (and probably changed the US for the worse anyway), and they are not “under the right conditions” anyway.
    , @Thorfinnsson

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.
     

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven't heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that's positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they're just better than mohammedans and blacks--confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.


    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.
     
    They're not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they've never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.
    , @Dmitry

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     
    Mexico's economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.
  257. @AaronB
    I understand there are threats to job etc - what I am saying is a truly motivated nationalist movement would figure out ways to organize financially so as to mitigate this threat, and would be willing to take some financial hits.

    You are suggesting people may be willing to die heroically, but not live lives of grinding poverty for a cause. This is not true. Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life. But they prefer poverty, pursuing a dream that's impossible by any rational standard. History is full of these examples.

    Not to mention, there is no such thing as grinding poverty in the West. Basically, you're saying everyone is super motivated - as motivated as anyone in history - but just aren't willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn't what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    So - this unemployed loser nonsense needs to go. Be prepared to take financial hits and live simply anyways. Look at Thorffinnson Mr Money Mustache site - the guy is voluntarily living the way you say people are terrified of having to if they are cut off financially.

    Look, you're not the first group to face a difficult situation - all sorts of "impossible" scenarios became reality because determined and motivated people didn't give up.

    The practical barriers are not the issue here. They can all be overcome.

    You need motivation and an end to individualism and materialism.

    The spiritual issues have to be dealt with first, then you can focus on the practical issues.

    You would be amazed at how having "skin in the game" can sharpen the intellect. You can't even imagine now the resourceful and creativd solutions you'd come up once you're seriously motivated.

    I have seen this in my work time and again. A "stupid" person who under performs suddenly becomes quite capable once I figure out a way to get him motivated. We are also learning about the role of effort in enhancing IQ.

    Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life.

    That’s not much of a choice for ordinary Gazans. The choice is accept the lower quality of life or face retribution from others for being a traitor while still not being accepted by Israel.

    What if you tried to think of a better example?

    Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history –

    You are fighting a straw man. There are enough motivated young men who join movements like identitarians. They cannot get much traction, because that kind of activism has always been for a minority only. I got annoyed at idiotic comparisons with totally non-comparable situations, like you are doing.

    I have seen the fall of communism as a teenager. It was easier in part because the communists never provided enough material comfort to people (enough means more than the ideological opponents in Western Europe), and people didn’t like “what historically would be considered obsene opulence”. It was also easier because it was obviously forced on the country by foreign invaders at gunpoint.

    But the dynamics weren’t that different: very few people were joining the opposition, and they were constantly harassed and lost their jobs (oh, Soros paid them money, so some then dissidents have now admitted that their living standards actually didn’t even decrease at all), but no one was executed or put into forced labor camps. A few people might have been locked up (like now), but not many.

    And then suddenly the system collapsed. We now know it was because of a loss of morale at the very top in the USSR. We can only hope that the very top of the American empire will similarly become progressively more and more stupid. It looks likely it will, but there’s no telling when it will collapse. Could come suddenly, but might take decades. I’d say a couple of decades. I don’t know how late it will be for our civilization by then.

    but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    You don’t seem to understand humans, despite having almost twenty-five years of life experience.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs - that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn't particularly important. You know, the same thing Europeans used to teach their kids before the great despair claimed them.

    So, you can go on believing that comfort is the main driver of human history, and that difficulties and obstacles are insurmountable - if it pleases you.

    You realize, however, that by spreading your despair you are morally culpable, and will have to answer to your maker. If you are old and seized with despair, you have a responsibility to step aside and not try and destroy life for others. Your generation is the one that surrendered to Jews despite being much more intelligent than them, as we are now discovering, merely out of despair, and generally messed everything up. Instead of recanting and apologizing, you seek to infect new generations with your poison, consumed by envy that others have an optimism you could never have.

    So he it. That is your choice. But there are karmic consequences for trying to poison others. And not just you - but Randal and all the rest of you despairing old men.
  258. @AP

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks
     
    They also don't blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around
     
    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don't have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago.

    Cuckservative and liberal meme. The mestizos are racially different, lower IQ, more violent, socially less conservative (what was the illegitimacy rate among those Italians?), with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms, the assimilation was still not complete (and probably changed the US for the worse anyway), and they are not “under the right conditions” anyway.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Do you know any though? The Mexicans I have met so far in my life - made a better impression than the Americans I have met, including in their cultural/intellectual level.
    , @AP

    Cuckservative and liberal meme.
     
    I don't care who says something, the data are important.

    The mestizos are racially different
     
    Correct. They are about 40% European-Spanish.

    lower IQ
     
    Correct. Jensen, who demonstrated that African lower IQ is organic in nature, also insisted that Native American and Mestizo lower IQ is environmental in nature, the same for European peasants from an earlier time.

    This of course isn't a good argument for immigration - we don't need a large influx of people with low IQ people into the modern economy.

    Ron Unz:

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/race-iq-and-wealth/comment-page-2/

    Ron Guhname, who styles himself “The Inductivist” and every couple of days publishes a new finding on his website. In 2008, he decided to explore the Wordsum-implied IQ of American-born Mexican-Americans and discovered a remarkable result. These IQs were quite low, 84–85, in the 1970s and 1980s, a result consistent with the IQ samples reported by Lynn/Vanhanen for that era. But the Mexican-American IQ then jumped 7 points by the 1990s and an additional 3 points by the 2000s, a rise of 10 full points in just 20 years, while the Wordsum-implied IQ values for white Americans rose merely 2 points during that same period, presumably as an aspect of the regular Flynn Effect.

    In actual values, the Mexican-American Wordsum-IQ increased from 84.4 in the 1980s to 95.1 in the 2000s, while the rise for American whites was from 99.2 to 101.3. In addition, the late 1990s IQ of U.S.-born Mexican-Americans has been separately estimated at 92.4 from the large data set contained in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY-97), a figure consistent with these Wordsum-IQ findings.

    Thus, almost two-thirds of the IQ gap between American-born Mexican-Americans and whites disappeared in two decades, with these results being based on nationally-representative American samples of statistically significant size. Since Guhname is a right-wing blogger quite hostile to Hispanic immigration, it is to his credit that he published this result without hesitation, and to the embarrassment of America’s vast multicultural academic and media establishment that they had never independently discovered these important findings, nor indeed even noticed them once they appeared. In any event, it appears that Mexican-American IQs in America have been rising about as rapidly as Irish IQs seem to have risen in Europe.

    more violent
     
    Ron Unz dispelled this myth:

    https://www.unz.com/article/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/

    Did you know that El Paso, Texas - 80% Mexican - has the lowest homicide rate among large US cities?

    socially less conservative
     
    So are modern day poor whites, who have high rates of illegitimacy (see Murray's Coming Apart).

    Poor Mexicans are largely acting like poor white people do. I suspect 100 years ago when poor white people were more moral, Mexicans were also.

    with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms
     
    These are problems that I described also.

    Anyways, the point being - Americans are very lucky compared to Europeans with respect to their immigration situation.
  259. @AP

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks
     
    They also don't blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around
     
    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don't have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven’t heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that’s positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they’re just better than mohammedans and blacks–confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    They’re not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they’ve never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    . And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?
     
    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London - appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.
    , @Yevardian
    Impressions on the whole I've have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they're dim, they're at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
    Imo if you want to complain about squat, rapey, ugly people with an astronomic birthrate and backward culture then look at India. Hispanics don't groom children, wipe their asses with their hands, represent an enemy superpower, wage jihad or have a sub 75 IQ. I don't really care about the US anyway, but you still don't really have anything to worry about compared to the rest of the world.
    , @AP

    They’re not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA.
     
    They are all swarthy, Catholic peasants.

    If you saw this guy outside a Home Depot early in the morning somewhere in Texas you'd assume he was a Mexican:

    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1c/c9/85/1cc9858e566f163846d2d5f9ce07af27--football-soccer-football-players.jpg

    And he is from Milan, not even the south.

    Here is Italian-American actor Al Lettieri, same thing:

    http://content6.flixster.com/photo/12/64/70/12647060_ori.jpg

    Mestizos are about 40% European and 55% Native American (65% European paternally and 10%-15% European maternally).

    you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly
     
    They tend to be obese, just like poor white people. I wouldn't consider them to be uglier or prettier otherwise.

    Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.
     
    I live here.
  260. @reiner Tor

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago.
     
    Cuckservative and liberal meme. The mestizos are racially different, lower IQ, more violent, socially less conservative (what was the illegitimacy rate among those Italians?), with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms, the assimilation was still not complete (and probably changed the US for the worse anyway), and they are not “under the right conditions” anyway.

    Do you know any though? The Mexicans I have met so far in my life – made a better impression than the Americans I have met, including in their cultural/intellectual level.

    • Troll: Greasy William
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    Yes, I would have to say one of the most capable professionals I have met was a Mexican consultant who got the highest performance ratings of anyone I have seen. However he was from the white elite not the ones trying to work in domestic service in the US.
    , @reiner Tor
    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn't show them to be so good.
  261. @AP

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks
     
    They also don't blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around
     
    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don't have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    Mexico’s economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.
     
    Internal to?
    , @AP

    Mexico’s economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita
     
    Sure, in per capita terms. It even beats Belarus! But it is distributed much less evenly. Mexico's top 10% live well. In Mexico the richest 10% make 22x more than do the poorest 10%. In Ukraine and Belarus these figures are 6x more and 7X more, respectively.

    So statistics about average income in Mexico don't tell us much about how typical Mexicans live.

    Data from 2012:

    https://www.worldeconomicsassociation.org/newsletterarticles/inequality-in-mexico/

    Mexicans in the middle 10% made 1843 pesos or 93.44 American dollars per month!

    These figures of course do not take into account cost of living and things have improved since 2012 - but you can get an idea.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America
     
    I have a few friends of wealthy Latin American backgrounds. An old acquaintance from university married a Mexican girl, the daughter of a diplomat. The situation down there is a much milder version of Eastern Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution. Well-educated, wealthy, well-traveled, civilized elite, illiterate or semi-literate masses (I've noticed that educated Latinos tend to enjoy classic Russian literature more than other people do, perhaps it depicts a world not completely unfamiliar to theirs). The reason for Polish jokes in the USA is that a lot of Polish peasants in the 19th century came to America.
    , @Thorfinnsson


    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.
     
    Yes...some. What sort of Mexican do you think studies abroad in Europe?

    Mexico is allegedly 9% white, with the upper classes being heavily white. Take former Mexican President Vicente Fox for instance, a blue-eyed 6'5" retired Coca Cola executive of Irish descent. Not exactly your typical Mexican, who has Spanish Y-DNA and Amerindian matrilineal DNA and whose grandparents were not even literate.

    Mexico's economy is also artificially larger than it deserves to be owing to bordering the United States and the criminally irresponsible NAFTA treaty.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Yes, people you’d meet studying in the summer are typical and representative of the relatively unintelligent 100-million-plus Indio and mestizo population of Mexico — and of their huge-assed cousins who are colonizing the former USA.
    , @songbird
    Mexicans are not converging on Euro norms. The proof positive is that in my area (not even many Hispanics as states go) they talk of closing the Hispanic-white gap in student achievement. This is the exact same thing they have tried to do with blacks for well over 60 yrs.

    My first experience of blacks in the subway was of a young black boy playing with matches - lighting them and tossing them into his mouth. My first experience with Hispanics on the subway was me overhearing them laughing about how they bullied some kid at school.

    The one Hispanic boy I grew up with was not a bad guy. His family was nice too, but he wrapped his car around a telephone pole. I know that is incident, but one of the other early ones I knew basically thinks Trump is Hitler. I understand they feel a sort of claim on the US - but because they think they are the beneficiaries of open borders - they take up the rhetoric. And the rhetoric, if carried to its logical conclusion, will result in Europe being toast, and to me that is unforgivable.

    There is a certain gentility that exists in Latin America, among some classes, where they have family values. I hate to say it, but many lose those values, when they come to a decadent US. I still prefer them to many others, but it is only a benefit locally when they are pushing out blacks. The Hispanic population growing means a political and economic convergence with Mexico. Mexico is an interesting place - there are many worse - but it is not a First World country, nor is it likely to ever become one, except through the benefits futurism, if they ever have time to arrive.

    Last time I had jury duty, the court was filled with brown people (mostly Hispanics). All the jurors were white. I'm speculating, but I think no other people bothered showing up.

    The Ukraine and Russia would both have both been substantially better off if they had been located right next to the US and had it as a trading partner, as well as had the same amount of remittances.
  262. @Talha

    I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.
     
    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/774/c54650b7278f88a3eeaa7aa7d5fce4f7.jpg

    And on that note - salaam to y'all.

    You mean salami?

  263. @Thorfinnsson

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.
     

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven't heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that's positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they're just better than mohammedans and blacks--confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.


    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.
     
    They're not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they've never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    . And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London – appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson


    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London – appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.
     
    Once again...what sort of Mexican do you think takes a summer language course in London? Someone from the upper class. Quite noteworthy that she was from Mexico City as well, which is the capital of Mexico and has a heavy concentration of elites. Most wealthy people in Mexico in fact live in Mexico City (or Monterrey).

    And yes, there are some beautiful mestizas. But on the whole they are uglier (and absolutely shorter--and it's not good to be short), and even if that were not true I value the preservation of the recessive Northern European phenotype.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Dmitry, man, i am glad for your positive experiences with Mexicans, and of course I’ve had them as well. But don’t be naive, get out more and get a wider acquaintance with Mexicans ;)

    I see sexy Mexican women every day because there are soooooo many Mexicans here in LA. I also have a Mexican friend who is quite intelligent and thoughtful (almost all Indian, from southern Mexico) and a Mexican acquaintance who is an impressive intellect and personality (pretty much completely white). I’m aware of the physical and intellectual diversity in that population.

    But I also see a FAR greater number of absolutely hideous waddling trolls. Usually with an enormous iPhone sticking out of the back pocket of their equally enormous jeans. Often with children in tow for whom I am buying groceries, medical care, and “education.”

    I associate with three younger Mexican-“American” women at work. Each one more morbidly obese than the next, and two of them semiliterate in two languages despite having graduated from those fine LA Government high schools. I’ve recounted elsewhere how one of them matter of flatly told me that she was not going to marry her boyfriend so that she could keep her MediCal benefits, even though they have a child together and plan to have another.

  264. @Thorfinnsson

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.
     

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven't heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that's positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they're just better than mohammedans and blacks--confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.


    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.
     
    They're not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they've never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    Impressions on the whole I’ve have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they’re dim, they’re at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
    Imo if you want to complain about squat, rapey, ugly people with an astronomic birthrate and backward culture then look at India. Hispanics don’t groom children, wipe their asses with their hands, represent an enemy superpower, wage jihad or have a sub 75 IQ. I don’t really care about the US anyway, but you still don’t really have anything to worry about compared to the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @AP

    Impressions on the whole I’ve have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they’re dim, they’re at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
     
    Pretty much. They speak a European language and follow a European religion.

    A Mexican party, allegedly in Texas:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzgH1uwt9vU
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Hispanics are indeed good natured and have no animus against Western civilization, being in fact part of it.

    But you're still playing this game of pointing out other groups which happen to be crappier.

    The fact that lots of human populations are crappier than mestizos is not an argument in favor of mestizos, who are absolute mediocrities.

    If present policies continue our indigenous working class will be replaced by mestizos, which has already happened in many parts of the country. This means that the lower classes will be shorter and uglier and have stupid Spanish names, permanently. Probably lower IQ as well, as Mexican-American IQ is 89 on average whereas the very stupidest white state (West Virginia) is 97. That's objectionable and bad government policy.

    Then there's the fact that mestizos vote Democrat (fortunately with low levels of participation at least). Democrats increasingly dream of turning America into South Africa it seems. Some are even calling for the abolition of immigration and customs enforcement. They're crazy and must be kept from attaining power ever again.

    Anyone who is a proponent of mestizos has to explain why what happened to California, which has been completely destroyed, will not also happen to the rest of America.

    We are also at risk of mohammedan immigration taking off, incidentally. Our mohammedan population has tripled since 9-11, and unless we can end chain migration it will keep growing. Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

  265. @Seraphim
    'Islamism' is the very core of... Islam. I cannot but wonder why people constantly fail to see what is in plain view. It would be enough to shuffle through their sacred book to see that. Islam has its own dynamic which is to Islamize the world (i.e. to erase Christianity and 'secularism' and make everyone raise their bottoms five times a day), even if at times the Jews, or the British, or the French, or the Americans, believe that they can manipulate this dynamic for their own purposes (usually against their own Christian fellows, Russians for example), without realizing that they do that at their own peril (what we see in Europe).

    IslamiStIslamist movements have taken off as a reaction against Western dominance not out of some insane scheme to convert the world. The entry of US troops into Saudi Arabia set Bin Laden off in targeting Westerners for attacks, similarly you usually see a spike in terrorist attacks when one Muslim country or another is being bombed by the West. The dominant narrative of Islamists is that Islam is being attacked on all sides by those who want to eliminate Muslims not world conquest.

    The Muslim practice of prayer was borrowed from Eastern Orthodox Christians who similarly raise their bottoms in the air as you term it to prostrate themselves before the Almighty.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    You know, as well as I know (and in fact anyone who cares to get informed about Islam) that this 'taqyia' is just that, a lie. You lie to yourself and to us. The difference is that you believe your own lies, whereas we don't. Muslims started slaughtering Christians and kept doing that for centuries before any Crusade (which were a tardy and unfortunately inefficient response to Muslim aggression).
    , @Svigor
    It still says a Hell of a lot about Muslims and their religiosity. Americans could be dominated by a Great Satan, and they wouldn't go all fundie Baptist. Hell, just how pissed off Muslims get over having another Muslim country invaded is striking. The equivalent would be something like Americans throwing a fundie Baptist revolution to overthrow a secular gov't that toed the line of a secular superpower that invaded fundie Baptist Canada.
  266. @Dmitry
    Do you know any though? The Mexicans I have met so far in my life - made a better impression than the Americans I have met, including in their cultural/intellectual level.

    Yes, I would have to say one of the most capable professionals I have met was a Mexican consultant who got the highest performance ratings of anyone I have seen. However he was from the white elite not the ones trying to work in domestic service in the US.

  267. @Talha

    You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?
     
    The stuff the Communists did in Central Asia was far beyond what anyone in the West would legitimately even consider. One of my teachers traveled through there to visit the graves of the many, many elders of the Naqshbandi chain that rest there. The elders from those communities told him horror stories - no clue how many people disappeared. They used to teach Qur'an to groups of children locked away in hidden cavities of buildings and homes that had empty beer bottles strewn around so the authorities wouldn't be suspicious.

    Spiritual brotherhoods simply went clandestine - to arise decades later and take their prominent place in society again:
    http://fletcher.tufts.edu/~/media/Fletcher/Microsites/praxis/xvi/Gaziev.pdf

    But this requires vision far, far beyond what is directly in front of one - and a conviction that the clouds will inevitably pass. Pessimism is death. You are basically saying; it's too difficult so there's no use in the struggle.

    And again - there is no need for violence as it is counterproductive.

    Peace.

    But in the UK (and for all I know in the US) Muslims and other minorities are privileged under law. We don’t live in Central Asia, either geographically or mentally.

    Equality now is literally defined as NOT treating everyone the same – you can have a housing project for Muslims only but not for Christians only. Muslims and Jews get to the front of the queue for death certificates, because their culture and religion requires quick burial, but a Christian baker in Belfast HAS to bake cakes bearing pro-homosexual slogans and never mind his culture or religion.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43922000

  268. @German_reader
    Good example for what nationalists in large parts of Europe are facing is what's currently happening with the identitarians in Austria...although they're completely non-violent, a leftie prosecutor is now trying to get them for allegedly having founded a criminal organization. The rationale is probably to bankrupt them through trial expenses.
    Their leader Martin Sellner can't even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa. His private car has also been torched by Antifa.
    The game is definitely rigged against any form of organized right-wing dissent.

    It’s also difficult for these identitarians to go violent.

    Violent against whom? Attacking the Antifa would get many members into jail (and into cells with Muslims), while Antifa are only lowly enforcers of the system. Violence against government ministers is difficult (there’s a reason why Muslims almost never do that). Besides, any violence will be used as a pretext to crack down on all forms of right wing agitation or organizations. It will also be used in propaganda to elicit sympathy for the “innocent victims” (even if they were violent Antifa members or government ministers or public prosecutors who started and conducted campaigns to destroy the lives of peaceful activists). In any event, Islam is not getting stronger because of the violence (rather despite of it), so it seems pointless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    In Hungary Orbán has cracked down on Jobbik (his authorities fined it so much that now it cannot afford to participate in a by-election, albeit it’s in Budapest where Jobbik has little chances anyway), this is one of the reasons why Jobbik was increasingly drifting to the left.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-“racism” and even anti-evolution, too. Maybe that’s not a big disadvantage, but it could well end up as a dead end: any institution or movement which is not explicitly racialist will end up being equalitarian and so useless.

    • Replies: @Mitleser

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.
     
    With emphasis on "now".
    Austria has been dominated by social democrats and cuckseratives for many decades and the federal president is a former Green politician.
    , @German_reader

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.
     
    Problem is that the ÖVP probably isn't really reliable, I've seen Austrian right-wingers on the net voice the suspicion that Kurz is basically a con man, tasked by the establishment with defanging the right.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-”racism” and even anti-evolution, too.
     
    No, I think you're totally wrong about that, the identitarians in Germany and Austria are pretty much explicit ethnic nationalists. They claim to be against "racism" in the sense of not explicitly believing in racial hierarchies, wanting to rule over other races etc., but favour ethnopluralism (pretty much "we don't care what they're doing in their countries, but keep them out of ours").
  269. @Yevardian
    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou. Having lived in both America and Western Europe, Americans really have very little to complain about regarding Mexicans. I'm with Ron Unz or that deep and profound philosopher of our times, Fred Reed, in this regard.

    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou.

    Lets put it this way: would you be ok with Eastern Europe being majority Mexican? If not then how can you expect other whites to be ok with it?

  270. @Dmitry
    Do you know any though? The Mexicans I have met so far in my life - made a better impression than the Americans I have met, including in their cultural/intellectual level.

    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good.

    • Replies: @AP

    Personal experience has not been bad
     
    A close friend from eastern Europe, who votes for an anti-migrant party and hates Merkel (thus, he is no kind of liberal or self-hating European), lives down in Texas. He likes Mexicans.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good
     
    Data suggest that they are a lot like European peasants.

    I am not suggesting that America shouldn't put a moratorium on such immigration until assimilation proceeds. It should. Just as it was a good idea to stop the Italian flood in the 1920s. I'm just being realistic about these nature of these people.
    , @Dmitry

    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good.
     

    I'm sure that differences, partly inherited, in intelligence and personality distributions do exist between population groups.

    At the same time, the data is not currently very reliable in this area, and can sometimes fall apart when I look into it.

    I think we already discussed this PISA tests which don't measure anything, except your tolerance for weird question.

    So it's not a case where you can so easily 'defer to data', above personal experience - in the way that you would of course say we should do, if we are given real scientific data, including mechanism of action, of how smoking causing cancer. And then clearly deferring to this data, above anecdotes like "my grandfather smokes every day but has lived to 107".

    This is 'sociology' quality data, so we need to keep it in a bit of parenthesis.

    As for an overall issue about immigration, of the course the Americans should have closed it down since years ago. Especially in relation to conservation of cultural identity and political consensus. But in some way this is too obvious to need to debate.

  271. Anatoly, thanks.

    The last political demonstration I spontaneously (more or less) joined out of human sympathy was a pro-Second Amendment group that was demonstrating in favor of more liberalized gun laws in Ohio. The demonstration had been preceded by a few local pols uttering some truly awful demonizing ad hominem crap about gun owners. I’m not a gun owner, but I favored liberalization, I knew gun owners to be sober and law-abiding types, and I was genuinely horrified by the rhetoric of a few local political slobs.

    I showed up. The demonstrators were polite and made their points quietly and with conviction. They were well-groomed, some dressed in American Wild West style.

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through. Anyone out there with the right organizational chops and bankroll?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through
     
    Twitter: #GeekMarchSoWhite

    Vice: "The problem with the term 'Geeks' and the implicit racism within."

    New York Times: "What should we think about the notion of 'geek' culture?"

    Mother Jones: "Its Time We had a talk about White People and Geeks."

    Quartz: "The Million Geeks marching against social progress."

    And every single MSM outlet will comment that this is a "disturbing display of elitism and populism" on the same day, using the exact same words that they independently came up with somehow.
  272. @JackOH
    Anatoly, thanks.

    The last political demonstration I spontaneously (more or less) joined out of human sympathy was a pro-Second Amendment group that was demonstrating in favor of more liberalized gun laws in Ohio. The demonstration had been preceded by a few local pols uttering some truly awful demonizing ad hominem crap about gun owners. I'm not a gun owner, but I favored liberalization, I knew gun owners to be sober and law-abiding types, and I was genuinely horrified by the rhetoric of a few local political slobs.

    I showed up. The demonstrators were polite and made their points quietly and with conviction. They were well-groomed, some dressed in American Wild West style.

    Anyway, I've proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America's managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through. Anyone out there with the right organizational chops and bankroll?

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through

    Twitter: #GeekMarchSoWhite

    Vice: “The problem with the term ‘Geeks’ and the implicit racism within.”

    New York Times: “What should we think about the notion of ‘geek’ culture?”

    Mother Jones: “Its Time We had a talk about White People and Geeks.”

    Quartz: “The Million Geeks marching against social progress.”

    And every single MSM outlet will comment that this is a “disturbing display of elitism and populism” on the same day, using the exact same words that they independently came up with somehow.

    • LOL: Hyperborean
    • Replies: @JackOH
    "Million Geek March canceled amid fears participants will be called nasty names by the New York Times and Tom Brokaw."

    Daniel, bro', you wanna read that story? Think about it---we're already being characterized as weird-asses living on the underside of wet rocks. I'm seeing here on UR a talented commentariat with real grievances that need to be well-framed and see the light of day.

  273. @Talha
    Well - I guess you're toast then. ;)

    Peace.

    My daughter is only half-white theoretically (though everyone is surprised when I tell them, so for the moment she looks white). Maybe I’m personally not toast.

    Anyway, since nationalists are in such a weak position now, their hope lies mostly in their enemies making mistakes. The system oppressing them is not sustainable anyway, so over time it will collapse. It’s a question what will be salvaged from the rubble.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    Fingol?
  274. @reiner Tor
    My daughter is only half-white theoretically (though everyone is surprised when I tell them, so for the moment she looks white). Maybe I'm personally not toast.

    Anyway, since nationalists are in such a weak position now, their hope lies mostly in their enemies making mistakes. The system oppressing them is not sustainable anyway, so over time it will collapse. It's a question what will be salvaged from the rubble.

    Fingol?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Let's just keep our identities shrouded in mystery.
  275. @Daniel Chieh

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through
     
    Twitter: #GeekMarchSoWhite

    Vice: "The problem with the term 'Geeks' and the implicit racism within."

    New York Times: "What should we think about the notion of 'geek' culture?"

    Mother Jones: "Its Time We had a talk about White People and Geeks."

    Quartz: "The Million Geeks marching against social progress."

    And every single MSM outlet will comment that this is a "disturbing display of elitism and populism" on the same day, using the exact same words that they independently came up with somehow.

    “Million Geek March canceled amid fears participants will be called nasty names by the New York Times and Tom Brokaw.”

    Daniel, bro’, you wanna read that story? Think about it—we’re already being characterized as weird-asses living on the underside of wet rocks. I’m seeing here on UR a talented commentariat with real grievances that need to be well-framed and see the light of day.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    My opinion is the investment with the best return is to fund this fella.
  276. @Yevardian
    Fingol?

    Let’s just keep our identities shrouded in mystery.

  277. Main component were white men, muscular-fat, tattooed prole types, the sort you associate with football hooligans;

    Your photos don’t match this description.

    • Agree: Svigor
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    The thin ones with short hair will have recently left prison. EDL is popular in gaol.
  278. @Ali Choudhury
    IslamiStIslamist movements have taken off as a reaction against Western dominance not out of some insane scheme to convert the world. The entry of US troops into Saudi Arabia set Bin Laden off in targeting Westerners for attacks, similarly you usually see a spike in terrorist attacks when one Muslim country or another is being bombed by the West. The dominant narrative of Islamists is that Islam is being attacked on all sides by those who want to eliminate Muslims not world conquest.

    The Muslim practice of prayer was borrowed from Eastern Orthodox Christians who similarly raise their bottoms in the air as you term it to prostrate themselves before the Almighty.

    You know, as well as I know (and in fact anyone who cares to get informed about Islam) that this ‘taqyia’ is just that, a lie. You lie to yourself and to us. The difference is that you believe your own lies, whereas we don’t. Muslims started slaughtering Christians and kept doing that for centuries before any Crusade (which were a tardy and unfortunately inefficient response to Muslim aggression).

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Crusades in Iberia were sufficiently efficient.
    , @Ali Choudhury
    If that is what you reckon then there is not much use in trying to persuade you otherwise. Muslims are quite aware of how backward, poor and weak their societies are. The prospect of taking on the rest of the world is a pipe dream.
    , @Ali Choudhury
    Also, I am not sure why you are bringing up taqiyah. That is largely a Shia doctrine since they were usually living in regions where they would be subject to oppression by Sunnis. And it was not a doctrine that said you were supposed to keep your plan to take over the world secret, it said it was OK to pretend you were not observant if you were at risk of serious harm. Sunni Muslims were pretty much always top dogs in the societies they lived in, exactly who would they need to dissemble to? Muslims in the British, French and Dutch empires had no particular need to hide their religious practice and the Muslims and Moriscos from Iberia were expelled anyway. There was probably a fair amount of taqiyah in godless Communist dictatorships, in the USSR in the past and in Xinjiang now.
  279. @JackOH
    "Million Geek March canceled amid fears participants will be called nasty names by the New York Times and Tom Brokaw."

    Daniel, bro', you wanna read that story? Think about it---we're already being characterized as weird-asses living on the underside of wet rocks. I'm seeing here on UR a talented commentariat with real grievances that need to be well-framed and see the light of day.

    My opinion is the investment with the best return is to fund this fella.

  280. OT: The U.S. govt just reported that the overall fertility rate
    declined to 1.76 in 2017. For non-Hispanic whites it was down to 1.72.
    As recently as in 2007, right before the Great Recession, it was still 2.08.
    The U.S. fertility rates are basically in free fall for all racial groups.

    I recall how only 10-15 years ago the U.S. was still boasting about its youthful
    energy and high fertility rates as compared to the Old Continent. And now
    what? Everything indicates that the U.S. fertility rate will decline to 1.3 – 1.5
    in the next few years. One reason is that marriage rates have also been
    in severe decline in recent years. About 70% of divorces are initiated by
    women, and with the divorce-industrial complex being what it is in the
    U.S. the phrase that one hears in America these days is that seeing
    a man get married is like seeing a lamb being led to slaughter

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    Re: U.S. fertility rate

    I don't know how widespread this is but I keep hearing
    an opinion in the U.S. that basically says," Why bring children
    into the world when the United States is in such severe decline?"
  281. @reiner Tor
    It's also difficult for these identitarians to go violent.

    Violent against whom? Attacking the Antifa would get many members into jail (and into cells with Muslims), while Antifa are only lowly enforcers of the system. Violence against government ministers is difficult (there's a reason why Muslims almost never do that). Besides, any violence will be used as a pretext to crack down on all forms of right wing agitation or organizations. It will also be used in propaganda to elicit sympathy for the "innocent victims" (even if they were violent Antifa members or government ministers or public prosecutors who started and conducted campaigns to destroy the lives of peaceful activists). In any event, Islam is not getting stronger because of the violence (rather despite of it), so it seems pointless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    In Hungary Orbán has cracked down on Jobbik (his authorities fined it so much that now it cannot afford to participate in a by-election, albeit it's in Budapest where Jobbik has little chances anyway), this is one of the reasons why Jobbik was increasingly drifting to the left.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-"racism" and even anti-evolution, too. Maybe that's not a big disadvantage, but it could well end up as a dead end: any institution or movement which is not explicitly racialist will end up being equalitarian and so useless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    With emphasis on “now”.
    Austria has been dominated by social democrats and cuckseratives for many decades and the federal president is a former Green politician.

  282. @Seraphim
    You know, as well as I know (and in fact anyone who cares to get informed about Islam) that this 'taqyia' is just that, a lie. You lie to yourself and to us. The difference is that you believe your own lies, whereas we don't. Muslims started slaughtering Christians and kept doing that for centuries before any Crusade (which were a tardy and unfortunately inefficient response to Muslim aggression).

    Crusades in Iberia were sufficiently efficient.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Yes, they have been efficient, but their success was limited to Iberia. The others failed in what would have been the end of the problem, eradication of the cause. They 'sinned', in the real sense of 'sin' - missing the target. They turned against their own and they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
  283. @German_reader

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.
     
    Franco wasn't really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It's just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn't ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can't really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that's the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal's traditions iirc.

    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy.

    IOW, he wasn’t delusional.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @German_reader
    He had delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power with a large colonial empire again which would have meant war with Britain. Part of the reason why he didn't join the Axis side was also that he felt Hitler wasn't generous enough (iirc he wanted a large part of French North Africa, and Hitler was unwilling to acquiesce in that since it would have meant trouble with Vichy France). Just read the biography by Stanley Payne if you don't believe me (it's a good book anyway, and in general quite sympathetic to the man).
  284. @Anon 2
    OT: The U.S. govt just reported that the overall fertility rate
    declined to 1.76 in 2017. For non-Hispanic whites it was down to 1.72.
    As recently as in 2007, right before the Great Recession, it was still 2.08.
    The U.S. fertility rates are basically in free fall for all racial groups.

    I recall how only 10-15 years ago the U.S. was still boasting about its youthful
    energy and high fertility rates as compared to the Old Continent. And now
    what? Everything indicates that the U.S. fertility rate will decline to 1.3 - 1.5
    in the next few years. One reason is that marriage rates have also been
    in severe decline in recent years. About 70% of divorces are initiated by
    women, and with the divorce-industrial complex being what it is in the
    U.S. the phrase that one hears in America these days is that seeing
    a man get married is like seeing a lamb being led to slaughter

    Re: U.S. fertility rate

    I don’t know how widespread this is but I keep hearing
    an opinion in the U.S. that basically says,” Why bring children
    into the world when the United States is in such severe decline?”

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Backwards, defeatist, cowardly, nihilistic reasoning. Other than that, I see their point.
    , @Hyperborean
    For what it is worth surveys tend to show that Americans' ideal amount of children tend to be quite high.

    As a result, the gap between the number of children that women say they want to have (2.7) and the number of children they will probably actually have (1.8) has risen to the highest level in 40 years. (From 1972 to 2016, men have expressed almost exactly the same ideal fertility rates as women: In a given year, they average just 0.04 children below what women say is ideal.)
     
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/american-fertility-is-falling-short-of-what-women-want.html88
  285. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.
     
    Pardon my french, but that is a whopping load of horse shit. 2.6M were born in 2015, compared to 2.5M in 2017. The fertility rate dropped from around 3.5 children per woman, to 3.1, staying well above replacement. Unless you have some crazy obscure source, I think you're pulling this out of tes fesses.

    PS Here is my source:http://www.capmas.gov.eg/pdf/EgyptInFigure/EgyptinFigures/Tables/English/vital/vital%20statistics/index.html

    Mae culpa,

    i just read the ticker-headline on some other site a few weeks ago. But radio-broadcast from one of the public-channel states that Al-Sisi reintroduced the family-program and most importantly rolls it out to the rural communes. We will see how fast it goes down. After all the Tiger economies needed 20 years.

  286. @Mitleser
    Crusades in Iberia were sufficiently efficient.

    Yes, they have been efficient, but their success was limited to Iberia. The others failed in what would have been the end of the problem, eradication of the cause. They ‘sinned’, in the real sense of ‘sin’ – missing the target. They turned against their own and they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

  287. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago.
     
    Cuckservative and liberal meme. The mestizos are racially different, lower IQ, more violent, socially less conservative (what was the illegitimacy rate among those Italians?), with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms, the assimilation was still not complete (and probably changed the US for the worse anyway), and they are not “under the right conditions” anyway.

    Cuckservative and liberal meme.

    I don’t care who says something, the data are important.

    The mestizos are racially different

    Correct. They are about 40% European-Spanish.

    lower IQ

    Correct. Jensen, who demonstrated that African lower IQ is organic in nature, also insisted that Native American and Mestizo lower IQ is environmental in nature, the same for European peasants from an earlier time.

    This of course isn’t a good argument for immigration – we don’t need a large influx of people with low IQ people into the modern economy.

    Ron Unz:

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/race-iq-and-wealth/comment-page-2/

    Ron Guhname, who styles himself “The Inductivist” and every couple of days publishes a new finding on his website. In 2008, he decided to explore the Wordsum-implied IQ of American-born Mexican-Americans and discovered a remarkable result. These IQs were quite low, 84–85, in the 1970s and 1980s, a result consistent with the IQ samples reported by Lynn/Vanhanen for that era. But the Mexican-American IQ then jumped 7 points by the 1990s and an additional 3 points by the 2000s, a rise of 10 full points in just 20 years, while the Wordsum-implied IQ values for white Americans rose merely 2 points during that same period, presumably as an aspect of the regular Flynn Effect.

    In actual values, the Mexican-American Wordsum-IQ increased from 84.4 in the 1980s to 95.1 in the 2000s, while the rise for American whites was from 99.2 to 101.3. In addition, the late 1990s IQ of U.S.-born Mexican-Americans has been separately estimated at 92.4 from the large data set contained in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY-97), a figure consistent with these Wordsum-IQ findings.

    Thus, almost two-thirds of the IQ gap between American-born Mexican-Americans and whites disappeared in two decades, with these results being based on nationally-representative American samples of statistically significant size. Since Guhname is a right-wing blogger quite hostile to Hispanic immigration, it is to his credit that he published this result without hesitation, and to the embarrassment of America’s vast multicultural academic and media establishment that they had never independently discovered these important findings, nor indeed even noticed them once they appeared. In any event, it appears that Mexican-American IQs in America have been rising about as rapidly as Irish IQs seem to have risen in Europe.

    more violent

    Ron Unz dispelled this myth:

    https://www.unz.com/article/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/

    Did you know that El Paso, Texas – 80% Mexican – has the lowest homicide rate among large US cities?

    socially less conservative

    So are modern day poor whites, who have high rates of illegitimacy (see Murray’s Coming Apart).

    Poor Mexicans are largely acting like poor white people do. I suspect 100 years ago when poor white people were more moral, Mexicans were also.

    with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms

    These are problems that I described also.

    Anyways, the point being – Americans are very lucky compared to Europeans with respect to their immigration situation.

  288. AP says:
    @reiner Tor
    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn't show them to be so good.

    Personal experience has not been bad

    A close friend from eastern Europe, who votes for an anti-migrant party and hates Merkel (thus, he is no kind of liberal or self-hating European), lives down in Texas. He likes Mexicans.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good

    Data suggest that they are a lot like European peasants.

    I am not suggesting that America shouldn’t put a moratorium on such immigration until assimilation proceeds. It should. Just as it was a good idea to stop the Italian flood in the 1920s. I’m just being realistic about these nature of these people.

    • Replies: @Svigor

    Anyways, the point being – Americans are very lucky compared to Europeans with respect to their immigration situation.
     
    Not from an ethnonationalist POV. From our POV, the more obnoxious the invaders, the better. Diseases that don't set off an immune response are far deadlier.

    A close friend from eastern Europe, who votes for an anti-migrant party and hates Merkel (thus, he is no kind of liberal or self-hating European), lives down in Texas. He likes Mexicans.
     
    I don't like or dislike Mexicans. Sorta like how I don't like or dislike Tigers, but don't want them anywhere near my yard, either.
  289. @Seraphim
    You know, as well as I know (and in fact anyone who cares to get informed about Islam) that this 'taqyia' is just that, a lie. You lie to yourself and to us. The difference is that you believe your own lies, whereas we don't. Muslims started slaughtering Christians and kept doing that for centuries before any Crusade (which were a tardy and unfortunately inefficient response to Muslim aggression).

    If that is what you reckon then there is not much use in trying to persuade you otherwise. Muslims are quite aware of how backward, poor and weak their societies are. The prospect of taking on the rest of the world is a pipe dream.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    The pipe dream proceeds apace in the UK and most of western and Central Europe, though, doesn’t it?
  290. @Dmitry

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     
    Mexico's economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Internal to?

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Internal to?

     

    Oops this was supposed to be 'international'.

    As a result of all these courses, I can write perfect English when I concentrate - but I'm not always concentrating enough to write down the right words.
  291. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     
    Mexico's economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Mexico’s economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita

    Sure, in per capita terms. It even beats Belarus! But it is distributed much less evenly. Mexico’s top 10% live well. In Mexico the richest 10% make 22x more than do the poorest 10%. In Ukraine and Belarus these figures are 6x more and 7X more, respectively.

    So statistics about average income in Mexico don’t tell us much about how typical Mexicans live.

    Data from 2012:

    https://www.worldeconomicsassociation.org/newsletterarticles/inequality-in-mexico/

    Mexicans in the middle 10% made 1843 pesos or 93.44 American dollars per month!

    These figures of course do not take into account cost of living and things have improved since 2012 – but you can get an idea.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America

    I have a few friends of wealthy Latin American backgrounds. An old acquaintance from university married a Mexican girl, the daughter of a diplomat. The situation down there is a much milder version of Eastern Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution. Well-educated, wealthy, well-traveled, civilized elite, illiterate or semi-literate masses (I’ve noticed that educated Latinos tend to enjoy classic Russian literature more than other people do, perhaps it depicts a world not completely unfamiliar to theirs). The reason for Polish jokes in the USA is that a lot of Polish peasants in the 19th century came to America.

  292. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Come on.

    Mestizos are short, ugly, dull, and vote Democrat. Ron Unz grandly proved that they're not as criminal as blacks. Big whoop.

    Damning with faint praise.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it's obscene to have them around.

    Hehehe.

    Spoken like a true Hindu. Indians are also short, ugly, and vote democrat.

    Too bad they are so rapey or else this comparison would be closer.

    Also, Indians are not worth keeping as slaves so you need to go back.

  293. AP says:
    @Yevardian
    Impressions on the whole I've have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they're dim, they're at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
    Imo if you want to complain about squat, rapey, ugly people with an astronomic birthrate and backward culture then look at India. Hispanics don't groom children, wipe their asses with their hands, represent an enemy superpower, wage jihad or have a sub 75 IQ. I don't really care about the US anyway, but you still don't really have anything to worry about compared to the rest of the world.

    Impressions on the whole I’ve have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they’re dim, they’re at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.

    Pretty much. They speak a European language and follow a European religion.

    A Mexican party, allegedly in Texas:

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Most of these Mexicans in the USA do NOT meaningfully follow a European religion, if you mean Christianity. And a large, growing number of them don't follow Christianity even nominally.

    Anyway, how comforting is it that the guy who just had a third child out of wedlock -- whom we can pay for through at least age 18, plus either college or prison thereafter -- was wearing a cross when he banged the woman (or women) he wasn't married to or even planning to marry. Not comforting, is the answer.

    There are also many Mexicans, in gangs and otherwise, who wear crucifixes or have "Christian" tattoos while dealing drugs, stealing, and committing violence and intimidation. Yes, I do have experience with Mexican and other gang crime.

    As for speaking a European language, there are actually a large number of Indio Mexicans in the USA who are not literate in Spanish and don't even regularly speak Spanish, and some who CAN'T speak Spanish. The parents of my friend here in LA come from far southern Mexico and speak Zapotec, not Spanish, at home, and are not fluent in Spanish.

    Finally, millions of Mexican-"Americans" are semi-literate and barely articulate even in Spanish, let alone English. I'm with them every day.
  294. @reiner Tor

    Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life.
     
    That’s not much of a choice for ordinary Gazans. The choice is accept the lower quality of life or face retribution from others for being a traitor while still not being accepted by Israel.

    What if you tried to think of a better example?

    Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history –
     
    You are fighting a straw man. There are enough motivated young men who join movements like identitarians. They cannot get much traction, because that kind of activism has always been for a minority only. I got annoyed at idiotic comparisons with totally non-comparable situations, like you are doing.

    I have seen the fall of communism as a teenager. It was easier in part because the communists never provided enough material comfort to people (enough means more than the ideological opponents in Western Europe), and people didn’t like “what historically would be considered obsene opulence”. It was also easier because it was obviously forced on the country by foreign invaders at gunpoint.

    But the dynamics weren’t that different: very few people were joining the opposition, and they were constantly harassed and lost their jobs (oh, Soros paid them money, so some then dissidents have now admitted that their living standards actually didn’t even decrease at all), but no one was executed or put into forced labor camps. A few people might have been locked up (like now), but not many.

    And then suddenly the system collapsed. We now know it was because of a loss of morale at the very top in the USSR. We can only hope that the very top of the American empire will similarly become progressively more and more stupid. It looks likely it will, but there’s no telling when it will collapse. Could come suddenly, but might take decades. I’d say a couple of decades. I don’t know how late it will be for our civilization by then.

    but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.
     
    You don’t seem to understand humans, despite having almost twenty-five years of life experience.

    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important. You know, the same thing Europeans used to teach their kids before the great despair claimed them.

    So, you can go on believing that comfort is the main driver of human history, and that difficulties and obstacles are insurmountable – if it pleases you.

    You realize, however, that by spreading your despair you are morally culpable, and will have to answer to your maker. If you are old and seized with despair, you have a responsibility to step aside and not try and destroy life for others. Your generation is the one that surrendered to Jews despite being much more intelligent than them, as we are now discovering, merely out of despair, and generally messed everything up. Instead of recanting and apologizing, you seek to infect new generations with your poison, consumed by envy that others have an optimism you could never have.

    So he it. That is your choice. But there are karmic consequences for trying to poison others. And not just you – but Randal and all the rest of you despairing old men.

    • Replies: @DFH

    what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important.
     
    KEK, have you ever met a Jew? Perhaps this is what they teach them in Israel (I wouldn't know), it certainly isn't in Western countreis
    , @Anon

    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs
     
    Okay, sounds like a plan. Update us on how it turns out.
  295. @AaronB
    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs - that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn't particularly important. You know, the same thing Europeans used to teach their kids before the great despair claimed them.

    So, you can go on believing that comfort is the main driver of human history, and that difficulties and obstacles are insurmountable - if it pleases you.

    You realize, however, that by spreading your despair you are morally culpable, and will have to answer to your maker. If you are old and seized with despair, you have a responsibility to step aside and not try and destroy life for others. Your generation is the one that surrendered to Jews despite being much more intelligent than them, as we are now discovering, merely out of despair, and generally messed everything up. Instead of recanting and apologizing, you seek to infect new generations with your poison, consumed by envy that others have an optimism you could never have.

    So he it. That is your choice. But there are karmic consequences for trying to poison others. And not just you - but Randal and all the rest of you despairing old men.

    what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important.

    KEK, have you ever met a Jew? Perhaps this is what they teach them in Israel (I wouldn’t know), it certainly isn’t in Western countreis

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Nope, never met a Jew. Please educate me on what American Jews teach their kids.
  296. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.
     

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven't heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that's positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they're just better than mohammedans and blacks--confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.


    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.
     
    They're not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they've never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    They’re not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA.

    They are all swarthy, Catholic peasants.

    If you saw this guy outside a Home Depot early in the morning somewhere in Texas you’d assume he was a Mexican:

    And he is from Milan, not even the south.

    Here is Italian-American actor Al Lettieri, same thing:

    Mestizos are about 40% European and 55% Native American (65% European paternally and 10%-15% European maternally).

    you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly

    They tend to be obese, just like poor white people. I wouldn’t consider them to be uglier or prettier otherwise.

    Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    I live here.

  297. @reiner Tor
    It's also difficult for these identitarians to go violent.

    Violent against whom? Attacking the Antifa would get many members into jail (and into cells with Muslims), while Antifa are only lowly enforcers of the system. Violence against government ministers is difficult (there's a reason why Muslims almost never do that). Besides, any violence will be used as a pretext to crack down on all forms of right wing agitation or organizations. It will also be used in propaganda to elicit sympathy for the "innocent victims" (even if they were violent Antifa members or government ministers or public prosecutors who started and conducted campaigns to destroy the lives of peaceful activists). In any event, Islam is not getting stronger because of the violence (rather despite of it), so it seems pointless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    In Hungary Orbán has cracked down on Jobbik (his authorities fined it so much that now it cannot afford to participate in a by-election, albeit it's in Budapest where Jobbik has little chances anyway), this is one of the reasons why Jobbik was increasingly drifting to the left.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-"racism" and even anti-evolution, too. Maybe that's not a big disadvantage, but it could well end up as a dead end: any institution or movement which is not explicitly racialist will end up being equalitarian and so useless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    Problem is that the ÖVP probably isn’t really reliable, I’ve seen Austrian right-wingers on the net voice the suspicion that Kurz is basically a con man, tasked by the establishment with defanging the right.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-”racism” and even anti-evolution, too.

    No, I think you’re totally wrong about that, the identitarians in Germany and Austria are pretty much explicit ethnic nationalists. They claim to be against “racism” in the sense of not explicitly believing in racial hierarchies, wanting to rule over other races etc., but favour ethnopluralism (pretty much “we don’t care what they’re doing in their countries, but keep them out of ours”).

  298. @Hyperborean
    So choose some other, better religion and stop shilling for islam. I think Western-style quasi-Buddhism would fit you.

    Islam only makes countries more backwards - which is detrimental to the acceleration of technological development that is the only way we can truly discover a true divine being.

    Deserts are merely wastelands, which is what obscurantist islam will turn Europe into if this southern volkerwanderung isn't stopped. Why make the aim of technological revelation that much harder for the industrial and post-industrial world to achieve?

    I don’t shill for Islam – I just don’t think it’s terrible, and I think any religion is better than modern secularism. Most of the animosity towards Islam is driven by secularism – so I defend Islam in that context. If we were debating the merits of Islam or Buddhism, I may say different things.

    Not do I have any interest in technological advance. Not against it, I just don’t think it’s hugely important. However, I respect those like Karin and Chieh who see technology as basically a transcendent religious project – those who see it merely as comfort, bore me.

    Western style Buddhism is terrible – fake, superficial, and completely gets it wrong.

    Buddhism was tried in Europe and failed, it’s only popular among a minority. It’s ultimately too mystical for the dry, factual, concrete European mind, which needs something to grasp onto – while Buddhism says you should relinquish all ideas and not take logic too seriously. Europeans wallow in ideas. Maybe in the future, after the collapse, Europeans will be more receptive to Buddhism.

    Mysticism was always a somewhat marginal movement in the west, although it had periods where it was more popular, while mysticism is the very basis of religion in Asia.

    Sufism manages to combine mysticism with more concrete elements, making it more suitable for occidentals. Orthodox Christianity is also more mystical but with enough concrete elements to appeal to occidentals.

    Old-school Catholicism might also do very well – and may be the most suitable for the Western mind.

    Protestantism and Mormonism seem very low on the religious scale to me, very materialistic and full of ego, but even they are better than nothing.

    The point is, different forms of spirituality are suitable for different people – if you are capable of little spirituality, then maybe Mormonism or Judaism is suitable for you. If higher, then maybe Buddhism or Taoism.

    • Replies: @AP

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism.
     
    So you think that Mosul before the Americans bombed it was better than Stockholm?
    , @Jayce
    I think any religion is better than modern secularism

    Seems to me any genuinely spiritual person would be more discerning and wary of false prophets and false gods. Your whole mindset is basically the same kind that got millions of spaced-out boomers press ganged into cults or molested by phony Indian "gurus" back in the 70s.
  299. @DFH

    what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important.
     
    KEK, have you ever met a Jew? Perhaps this is what they teach them in Israel (I wouldn't know), it certainly isn't in Western countreis

    Nope, never met a Jew. Please educate me on what American Jews teach their kids.

  300. @Art Deco
    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy.

    IOW, he wasn't delusional.

    He had delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power with a large colonial empire again which would have meant war with Britain. Part of the reason why he didn’t join the Axis side was also that he felt Hitler wasn’t generous enough (iirc he wanted a large part of French North Africa, and Hitler was unwilling to acquiesce in that since it would have meant trouble with Vichy France). Just read the biography by Stanley Payne if you don’t believe me (it’s a good book anyway, and in general quite sympathetic to the man).

  301. @Dmitry

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     
    Mexico's economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Yes…some. What sort of Mexican do you think studies abroad in Europe?

    Mexico is allegedly 9% white, with the upper classes being heavily white. Take former Mexican President Vicente Fox for instance, a blue-eyed 6’5″ retired Coca Cola executive of Irish descent. Not exactly your typical Mexican, who has Spanish Y-DNA and Amerindian matrilineal DNA and whose grandparents were not even literate.

    Mexico’s economy is also artificially larger than it deserves to be owing to bordering the United States and the criminally irresponsible NAFTA treaty.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    If you think the average Mexican benefited from NAFTA then you're economically illiterate.
  302. @Dmitry

    . And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?
     
    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London - appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London – appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

    Once again…what sort of Mexican do you think takes a summer language course in London? Someone from the upper class. Quite noteworthy that she was from Mexico City as well, which is the capital of Mexico and has a heavy concentration of elites. Most wealthy people in Mexico in fact live in Mexico City (or Monterrey).

    And yes, there are some beautiful mestizas. But on the whole they are uglier (and absolutely shorter–and it’s not good to be short), and even if that were not true I value the preservation of the recessive Northern European phenotype.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Once again…what sort of Mexican do you think takes a summer language course in London? Someone from the upper class. Quite noteworthy that she was from Mexico City as well, which is the capital of Mexico and has a heavy concentration of elites. Most wealthy people in Mexico in fact live in Mexico City (or Monterrey).

    And yes, there are some beautiful mestizas. But on the whole they are uglier (and absolutely shorter–and it’s not good to be short), and even if that were not true I value the preservation of the recessive Northern European phenotype.
     
    Sure there must be a wide variety of people there. And I don't doubt plenty of millions of less civilized cattle.

    My point was just that the statement was not completely true, as I know for a fact for real life.

    You know a lot of the time on the internet, we have these weird situations. For example, ugly people (I'm not saying you - but in general), calling 'ugly' nationalities of people which must also encompass thousands of 10/10 beautiful women, which would be above their own dating level in real life.

    It suddenly seems very weird when you contrast people 'talking shit' on internet (how they themselves usually look), with real life.

    -

    As for inside America itself. I have travelled in America - the last time was only last summer. My older brother is working for the year in California. We drove all over California.

    I remember a lot of Latin people working as waiters. My impression was very modest people who you do not even notice.

    The fatness aspect seems to be a percentage of all the races there (although there's plenty of people who are healthy looking there as well).
  303. @Dmitry

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.
     
    Mexico's economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Yes, people you’d meet studying in the summer are typical and representative of the relatively unintelligent 100-million-plus Indio and mestizo population of Mexico — and of their huge-assed cousins who are colonizing the former USA.

  304. @Yevardian
    Impressions on the whole I've have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they're dim, they're at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
    Imo if you want to complain about squat, rapey, ugly people with an astronomic birthrate and backward culture then look at India. Hispanics don't groom children, wipe their asses with their hands, represent an enemy superpower, wage jihad or have a sub 75 IQ. I don't really care about the US anyway, but you still don't really have anything to worry about compared to the rest of the world.

    Hispanics are indeed good natured and have no animus against Western civilization, being in fact part of it.

    But you’re still playing this game of pointing out other groups which happen to be crappier.

    The fact that lots of human populations are crappier than mestizos is not an argument in favor of mestizos, who are absolute mediocrities.

    If present policies continue our indigenous working class will be replaced by mestizos, which has already happened in many parts of the country. This means that the lower classes will be shorter and uglier and have stupid Spanish names, permanently. Probably lower IQ as well, as Mexican-American IQ is 89 on average whereas the very stupidest white state (West Virginia) is 97. That’s objectionable and bad government policy.

    Then there’s the fact that mestizos vote Democrat (fortunately with low levels of participation at least). Democrats increasingly dream of turning America into South Africa it seems. Some are even calling for the abolition of immigration and customs enforcement. They’re crazy and must be kept from attaining power ever again.

    Anyone who is a proponent of mestizos has to explain why what happened to California, which has been completely destroyed, will not also happen to the rest of America.

    We are also at risk of mohammedan immigration taking off, incidentally. Our mohammedan population has tripled since 9-11, and unless we can end chain migration it will keep growing. Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.
     
    Just too bad that he's also aligned the US even more with horrible Saudi-Arabia which will preclude cracking down on Islamic immigration like it would be necessary.
    If he starts a large Mideast war, it will also mean even more Islamic refugees (some even possibly genuine) in Europe.
  305. @Dmitry

    . And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?
     
    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London - appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

    Dmitry, man, i am glad for your positive experiences with Mexicans, and of course I’ve had them as well. But don’t be naive, get out more and get a wider acquaintance with Mexicans 😉

    I see sexy Mexican women every day because there are soooooo many Mexicans here in LA. I also have a Mexican friend who is quite intelligent and thoughtful (almost all Indian, from southern Mexico) and a Mexican acquaintance who is an impressive intellect and personality (pretty much completely white). I’m aware of the physical and intellectual diversity in that population.

    But I also see a FAR greater number of absolutely hideous waddling trolls. Usually with an enormous iPhone sticking out of the back pocket of their equally enormous jeans. Often with children in tow for whom I am buying groceries, medical care, and “education.”

    I associate with three younger Mexican-“American” women at work. Each one more morbidly obese than the next, and two of them semiliterate in two languages despite having graduated from those fine LA Government high schools. I’ve recounted elsewhere how one of them matter of flatly told me that she was not going to marry her boyfriend so that she could keep her MediCal benefits, even though they have a child together and plan to have another.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    American culture pretty much makes everyone degenerate - and the effect is particularly strong on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, although no one is spared.

    I would not consider mexicans in la typical of anything other than the degenerative effects of American values.

    When considered as potential ingredients in a new American culture with higher values, mexicans will be fine, no worse than many other elements. Certainly the low-class white, or the loud, vulgar low-class Chinese that you find in Asia, or the ghetto Jew, are hideous specimens of humanity - worse than the placid and inoffensive mexican.

    But all are capable of refinement elevation in a culture with good values.
    , @Dmitry
    Well I emphasize with your situation being close to too many trolls. My point was not to say 'all are great'. Just also that I had a good impression.
  306. @Thorfinnsson
    Hispanics are indeed good natured and have no animus against Western civilization, being in fact part of it.

    But you're still playing this game of pointing out other groups which happen to be crappier.

    The fact that lots of human populations are crappier than mestizos is not an argument in favor of mestizos, who are absolute mediocrities.

    If present policies continue our indigenous working class will be replaced by mestizos, which has already happened in many parts of the country. This means that the lower classes will be shorter and uglier and have stupid Spanish names, permanently. Probably lower IQ as well, as Mexican-American IQ is 89 on average whereas the very stupidest white state (West Virginia) is 97. That's objectionable and bad government policy.

    Then there's the fact that mestizos vote Democrat (fortunately with low levels of participation at least). Democrats increasingly dream of turning America into South Africa it seems. Some are even calling for the abolition of immigration and customs enforcement. They're crazy and must be kept from attaining power ever again.

    Anyone who is a proponent of mestizos has to explain why what happened to California, which has been completely destroyed, will not also happen to the rest of America.

    We are also at risk of mohammedan immigration taking off, incidentally. Our mohammedan population has tripled since 9-11, and unless we can end chain migration it will keep growing. Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

    Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

    Just too bad that he’s also aligned the US even more with horrible Saudi-Arabia which will preclude cracking down on Islamic immigration like it would be necessary.
    If he starts a large Mideast war, it will also mean even more Islamic refugees (some even possibly genuine) in Europe.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Foreign policy has been perhaps the biggest letdown of the Trump Presidency, but alignment with Saudi Arabia doesn't cause problems with that at all. Islamic governments don't give a shit at all about our immigration policy. Actual mohammedan governments apparently love Trump in fact, probably because they're impressed with his machismo and swagger.

    What precludes cracking down on mohammedan immigration completely (as in 100%, other than maybe intracompany executive transfers) is just baby boomerism and the idea that one must have "equality" and "fairness" etc.

    And of course The Enemy, which means we're presently unable to pass restrictionist legislation in Congress. And without such legislation we'll get swamped by chain migration.

    The President technically has the power to suspend all immigration by executive order, but this will be (illegally) stopped by the courts. And for some reason Trump keeps obeying these black-robed terrorists. If we get lucky he takes a good look at the painting of Andrew Jackson he hung in the Oval Office and learns about how Old Hickory dealt with the terrorist kritarchs of his time.
  307. @Ali Choudhury
    If that is what you reckon then there is not much use in trying to persuade you otherwise. Muslims are quite aware of how backward, poor and weak their societies are. The prospect of taking on the rest of the world is a pipe dream.

    The pipe dream proceeds apace in the UK and most of western and Central Europe, though, doesn’t it?

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    How so? They are running away from countries run by Muslims to ones that are not. About the only non-Muslim country which officially recognises Shariah law is Israel which of course is well known for its solicitous and docile attitude towards the followers of Islam.
  308. @Anon 2
    Re: U.S. fertility rate

    I don't know how widespread this is but I keep hearing
    an opinion in the U.S. that basically says," Why bring children
    into the world when the United States is in such severe decline?"

    Backwards, defeatist, cowardly, nihilistic reasoning. Other than that, I see their point.

  309. @AaronB
    I don't shill for Islam - I just don't think it's terrible, and I think any religion is better than modern secularism. Most of the animosity towards Islam is driven by secularism - so I defend Islam in that context. If we were debating the merits of Islam or Buddhism, I may say different things.

    Not do I have any interest in technological advance. Not against it, I just don't think it's hugely important. However, I respect those like Karin and Chieh who see technology as basically a transcendent religious project - those who see it merely as comfort, bore me.

    Western style Buddhism is terrible - fake, superficial, and completely gets it wrong.

    Buddhism was tried in Europe and failed, it's only popular among a minority. It's ultimately too mystical for the dry, factual, concrete European mind, which needs something to grasp onto - while Buddhism says you should relinquish all ideas and not take logic too seriously. Europeans wallow in ideas. Maybe in the future, after the collapse, Europeans will be more receptive to Buddhism.

    Mysticism was always a somewhat marginal movement in the west, although it had periods where it was more popular, while mysticism is the very basis of religion in Asia.

    Sufism manages to combine mysticism with more concrete elements, making it more suitable for occidentals. Orthodox Christianity is also more mystical but with enough concrete elements to appeal to occidentals.

    Old-school Catholicism might also do very well - and may be the most suitable for the Western mind.

    Protestantism and Mormonism seem very low on the religious scale to me, very materialistic and full of ego, but even they are better than nothing.

    The point is, different forms of spirituality are suitable for different people - if you are capable of little spirituality, then maybe Mormonism or Judaism is suitable for you. If higher, then maybe Buddhism or Taoism.

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism.

    So you think that Mosul before the Americans bombed it was better than Stockholm?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Apples and oranges.

    Stockholm a century ago however was much better than Stockholm today, other than that tunelbanan (the subway) did not open until 1950.

    And even in the subway the cultural collapse is obvious, and was obvious before there were any non-whites using it.

    The stations are for instance full of "art". The "art" in question being hideous garbage.

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.
    , @AaronB
    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn't it? Everything good in Stockholm - it's beautiful architecture, it's human scale, it's traditional food culture, the attention to dress and appearance - is a residue of the older religious culture. The modern secular culture is destroying Sweden.

    In Mosul, there is much perverted and twisted religion and much that is bad - but is it committing suicide? Does it suffer the twisted mental afflictions of the Swedes?

    Yes, modern secular society is the worst - it is also suicidal.
  310. @AaronB
    I don't shill for Islam - I just don't think it's terrible, and I think any religion is better than modern secularism. Most of the animosity towards Islam is driven by secularism - so I defend Islam in that context. If we were debating the merits of Islam or Buddhism, I may say different things.

    Not do I have any interest in technological advance. Not against it, I just don't think it's hugely important. However, I respect those like Karin and Chieh who see technology as basically a transcendent religious project - those who see it merely as comfort, bore me.

    Western style Buddhism is terrible - fake, superficial, and completely gets it wrong.

    Buddhism was tried in Europe and failed, it's only popular among a minority. It's ultimately too mystical for the dry, factual, concrete European mind, which needs something to grasp onto - while Buddhism says you should relinquish all ideas and not take logic too seriously. Europeans wallow in ideas. Maybe in the future, after the collapse, Europeans will be more receptive to Buddhism.

    Mysticism was always a somewhat marginal movement in the west, although it had periods where it was more popular, while mysticism is the very basis of religion in Asia.

    Sufism manages to combine mysticism with more concrete elements, making it more suitable for occidentals. Orthodox Christianity is also more mystical but with enough concrete elements to appeal to occidentals.

    Old-school Catholicism might also do very well - and may be the most suitable for the Western mind.

    Protestantism and Mormonism seem very low on the religious scale to me, very materialistic and full of ego, but even they are better than nothing.

    The point is, different forms of spirituality are suitable for different people - if you are capable of little spirituality, then maybe Mormonism or Judaism is suitable for you. If higher, then maybe Buddhism or Taoism.

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism

    Seems to me any genuinely spiritual person would be more discerning and wary of false prophets and false gods. Your whole mindset is basically the same kind that got millions of spaced-out boomers press ganged into cults or molested by phony Indian “gurus” back in the 70s.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I get it - spirituality is dangerous it can lead to false prophets etc. This can happen within traditional religions too - it's no safeguard. There are ways to address this issue, but addressing the basics of spirituality as I am is necessary.

    Life is dangerous - deal with it. It's just one more manifestation of the Western weariness and despair that it wants to make life perfectly safe and free of risk.
  311. @German_reader

    Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.
     
    Just too bad that he's also aligned the US even more with horrible Saudi-Arabia which will preclude cracking down on Islamic immigration like it would be necessary.
    If he starts a large Mideast war, it will also mean even more Islamic refugees (some even possibly genuine) in Europe.

    Foreign policy has been perhaps the biggest letdown of the Trump Presidency, but alignment with Saudi Arabia doesn’t cause problems with that at all. Islamic governments don’t give a shit at all about our immigration policy. Actual mohammedan governments apparently love Trump in fact, probably because they’re impressed with his machismo and swagger.

    What precludes cracking down on mohammedan immigration completely (as in 100%, other than maybe intracompany executive transfers) is just baby boomerism and the idea that one must have “equality” and “fairness” etc.

    And of course The Enemy, which means we’re presently unable to pass restrictionist legislation in Congress. And without such legislation we’ll get swamped by chain migration.

    The President technically has the power to suspend all immigration by executive order, but this will be (illegally) stopped by the courts. And for some reason Trump keeps obeying these black-robed terrorists. If we get lucky he takes a good look at the painting of Andrew Jackson he hung in the Oval Office and learns about how Old Hickory dealt with the terrorist kritarchs of his time.

  312. @RadicalCenter
    Dmitry, man, i am glad for your positive experiences with Mexicans, and of course I’ve had them as well. But don’t be naive, get out more and get a wider acquaintance with Mexicans ;)

    I see sexy Mexican women every day because there are soooooo many Mexicans here in LA. I also have a Mexican friend who is quite intelligent and thoughtful (almost all Indian, from southern Mexico) and a Mexican acquaintance who is an impressive intellect and personality (pretty much completely white). I’m aware of the physical and intellectual diversity in that population.

    But I also see a FAR greater number of absolutely hideous waddling trolls. Usually with an enormous iPhone sticking out of the back pocket of their equally enormous jeans. Often with children in tow for whom I am buying groceries, medical care, and “education.”

    I associate with three younger Mexican-“American” women at work. Each one more morbidly obese than the next, and two of them semiliterate in two languages despite having graduated from those fine LA Government high schools. I’ve recounted elsewhere how one of them matter of flatly told me that she was not going to marry her boyfriend so that she could keep her MediCal benefits, even though they have a child together and plan to have another.

    American culture pretty much makes everyone degenerate – and the effect is particularly strong on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, although no one is spared.

    I would not consider mexicans in la typical of anything other than the degenerative effects of American values.

    When considered as potential ingredients in a new American culture with higher values, mexicans will be fine, no worse than many other elements. Certainly the low-class white, or the loud, vulgar low-class Chinese that you find in Asia, or the ghetto Jew, are hideous specimens of humanity – worse than the placid and inoffensive mexican.

    But all are capable of refinement elevation in a culture with good values.

    • Replies: @DFH
    What is it with you and your fetishism of xenos?
    , @RadicalCenter
    If you continue to call Mexicans generally "placid," you're not talking about the reality of the mass of Mexicans that I encounter here and far from LA as well.
  313. @AP

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism.
     
    So you think that Mosul before the Americans bombed it was better than Stockholm?

    Apples and oranges.

    Stockholm a century ago however was much better than Stockholm today, other than that tunelbanan (the subway) did not open until 1950.

    And even in the subway the cultural collapse is obvious, and was obvious before there were any non-whites using it.

    The stations are for instance full of “art”. The “art” in question being hideous garbage.

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.
     
    I don't see how that has necessarily anything to do with religion/secularism, the more obvious culprits are mass society and socialism imo.
    , @AP
    I don't disagree, but is, say, even a modern part of Stockholm, built in the 1980s, better or worse than Mosul?

    Sure extreme progessivism is worse than traditional (Christian) Western culture but it is not worse than any religious culture. Gender nuetral nonsense in modern Sweden like havng boys play with dolls and girls with trucks isn't worse than the stuff they did in ISIS-ruled Mosul or Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.
  314. @AaronB
    American culture pretty much makes everyone degenerate - and the effect is particularly strong on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, although no one is spared.

    I would not consider mexicans in la typical of anything other than the degenerative effects of American values.

    When considered as potential ingredients in a new American culture with higher values, mexicans will be fine, no worse than many other elements. Certainly the low-class white, or the loud, vulgar low-class Chinese that you find in Asia, or the ghetto Jew, are hideous specimens of humanity - worse than the placid and inoffensive mexican.

    But all are capable of refinement elevation in a culture with good values.

    What is it with you and your fetishism of xenos?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    It's not that I fetishisize xenos - it's that I oppose secularism.

    I oppose making statements about the innate qualities of Mexicans when they are currently the products of secularism - and I oppose criticising Islam from the secular standpoint.

    But I am on record supporting white group identity based on religion plus ethnicity.

    I do think the USA however will break up, and a mosaic of regional identities will emerge, and that we can't judge the contributions of any group based on how they function under secularism.
  315. @Thorfinnsson
    Apples and oranges.

    Stockholm a century ago however was much better than Stockholm today, other than that tunelbanan (the subway) did not open until 1950.

    And even in the subway the cultural collapse is obvious, and was obvious before there were any non-whites using it.

    The stations are for instance full of "art". The "art" in question being hideous garbage.

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.

    I don’t see how that has necessarily anything to do with religion/secularism, the more obvious culprits are mass society and socialism imo.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    We underwent some kind of cultural collapse in the 20th century, and part of this cultural collapse involves the loss of religion. This cultural collapse is physically manifest in our cities.

    Of course it would be unfair to blame all of this on religion, or even culture.

    Some of it is just technology. For instance with traditional building materials and techniques, it is nearly impossible to build a hideous building. It can be done, but requires effort.

    With modern building technology like reinforced concrete, steel frames, etc. it is in fact quite easy to build ugly structures. My factory for instance is a steel building. It's ugly. If it were built a century ago it would've been built of brick and be handsome.

    And then there's the motor car. Car-oriented development is usually ugly.

    But this still doesn't explain why after the war it became in fact highly fashionable to design and construct buildings intentionally designed to be hideous. Boston City Hall being a particularly amusing example.
  316. @AP

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism.
     
    So you think that Mosul before the Americans bombed it was better than Stockholm?

    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn’t it? Everything good in Stockholm – it’s beautiful architecture, it’s human scale, it’s traditional food culture, the attention to dress and appearance – is a residue of the older religious culture. The modern secular culture is destroying Sweden.

    In Mosul, there is much perverted and twisted religion and much that is bad – but is it committing suicide? Does it suffer the twisted mental afflictions of the Swedes?

    Yes, modern secular society is the worst – it is also suicidal.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    Yes, modern secular society is also suicidal.
     
    Maybe, but your statement "any religion is better than modern secularism" is still idiotic. Do you want to tell us that some cult worshipping the Aztec rain god, putting children into cages and fattening them up for sacrifice would be preferable to modern Western secularism, which in any case still contains significant elements of its Christian heritage?
    If so, you're simply a moron, sorry.
    , @AP

    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn’t it?
     
    I was talking about Mosul under ISIS, not under Saddam. But if you think it was better under ISIS than under the secularist Baath government I can't help you.

    In Mosul, there is much perverted and twisted religion and much that is bad – but is it committing suicide? Does it suffer the twisted mental afflictions of the Swedes
     
    I'd say kidnapping and using 12 year old girls as sex slaves as Islamists do in Iraq is worse than making boys play with dolls as secularisrts do in Sweden but I guess we disagree about that.
  317. @AaronB
    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn't it? Everything good in Stockholm - it's beautiful architecture, it's human scale, it's traditional food culture, the attention to dress and appearance - is a residue of the older religious culture. The modern secular culture is destroying Sweden.

    In Mosul, t