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Can create a MIRV’ed ICBM to accompany the hydrogen bomb they unveiled in 2017:

And even the chassis for it – at least, to the amazement of Western journalists*.

It’s own MBT*:

Some kind of S-300 like system:

Even new uniforms, which look quite sturdier than the old ones:

 

This is what 25 million people with an average IQ of 103 can accomplish if they set their minds to it. Still waiting for the Sudan to accomplish something similar.

Or even 88 IQ Iran, over whose nuclear program 95 IQ Israelis with a large 103 IQ smart fraction regularly ride roughshod over. Though as we saw this January, even Iran is capable of springing surprises.

Now in fairness, liquid fueled missiles, even big MIRV’ed ones like this new version of the Hwasong-15, are still far inferior to the solid fueled ones that represent the true cutting edge. They can be detected during the ~30 minutes they need for fueling, which opens a window for cruise missile strikes. And it’s also much easier now to develop all these technologies than during the Cold War, for the basic reason that (1) they have already been developed, and (2) because the electronics and machine parts which go into them were not available in 1960 but today can be bought on Ali Baba (as commenter Thorfinnsson points out).

Still, these are impressive achievements nonetheless, and ones that continue to legitimate the HBD-centric view of the world.

On another, more geopolitical note, achieving nuclear security also ensures the long-term dominance of Best Korea, which retains healthy, replacement level fertility, over the South – which continues to plumb new demographic nadirs with every passing year. The North has had more total births than the South since the late 2010s, despite having half its population. So long as these trends don’t cardinally change, and the North’s political system remains unchanged – indeed, with society “frozen” in its pre-SJW driven dissolution state – the North may regain a window to militarily resolve the reunification issue that it came close to achieving in the 1980s, but seemingly permanently lost in the 1990s.

***

* Commenter Annatar reminds us that Elleman is the same guy who claimed the Iranian missiles had a CEP of 700 meters whereas in fact it was just 10 meters.

** Cool fact: North Korean tanks are pretty specific, their cannons have a wider angle of inclination than in other countries, to adjust for the mountainous terrain).

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Military, North Korea 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Pretty sure Pakistan also has MIRV capabilities, I would guess in both the case of Pakistan and North Korea (whose IQ was surely inferred from South Korean test scores?), China gave them a lot of help in acquiring this capability. From China’s perspective it is good to have two very friendly nations have this technology to bolster China’s own defence against America and other mutual enemies like India with the case of Pakistan.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @showmethereal
  3. sh1pman says:

    One criticism: liquid fuelled BMs are always stored pre-filled. (https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Р-36М) The fuel components, UDMH and nitrogen tetroxide, are stable and storable, unlike cryo fuels used in most commercial orbital rockets. In fact, liquid fuelled rockets usually have better performance (=more payload or higher range) than solid rocket motors.

    • Replies: @songbird
  4. 128 says:

    You know that their state of the art tank is likely to be as state of the art in terms of its FCS as a Leopard 1 from the year 1980 right? This is silly. How do we even know of if any of those work anyway, or as just props?

    • Replies: @Rahan
  5. 128 says:

    And NK has a per capita GDP comparable to that of Rwanda, and its countryside probably has the same agricultural productivity as England in the year 1200. And what percentage of its non large urban area, expect for Pyongyang, or rural population even has 2000 calories a day? And what percentage of Pakistan’s population has ready access to co-Amoxiclav, as opposed to NK’s population?

  6. Ano4 says:

    Comrade Kim approves this post!

    And there is no COVID-19 in Best Korea.

    Viruses are a revisionist capitalist disease…

  7. inertial says:

    Here is the soundtrack to this post. This song got the Grammy in the category “Best pop songs that celebrate nuclear missile launches.”

    As an aside, NK-Pop is unironically the best K-Pop.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, Bill
    • LOL: Ano4, utu, Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  8. Racial purity in the DPRK

    During a 2006 meeting between North and South Korean delegates, the former brought up the topic of South Korea’s so-called race mixing. When a Southern representative (falsely) stated that the amount of mixing amounted no more than a “drop of ink in the Han River,” the reply from the North was blunt: “Not even one drop of ink must be allowed to fall in the Han River”

    Very based.

    • Replies: @128
  9. 128 says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    And then the same people and bloggers who praise North Koreas for thinking this way will call people who complain that Russians are racially mixed to be racists and Nazis, to give you a dose of your own medicine, how about being North Korean is a state of mind, not a race or an ethnic group? Racial purism for Asians but not for Russians right?

    • Agree: Ano4
    • LOL: utu
  10. nebulafox says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Pakistan’s nuclear program was helped along by the North Koreans, who have never been shy about helping anyone willing to give them much needed hard currency. Search for “Kim Sa Nae” if you want the surface of an interesting spy thriller.

    >From China’s perspective it is good to have two very friendly nations have this technology to bolster China’s own defence against America and other mutual enemies like India with the case of Pakistan.

    Friendly is a stretch, at least in the case of North Korea. China’s relationship with the DRPK is much like America’s with Pakistan: they don’t like them, but they are stuck with them absent unforseeable political changes.

    >Very based.

    Just because they are racial ultra-nationalists doesn’t mean they are crazy, IMO.

  11. In a 2006 meeting, North Korea complained about the growing number of foreigners in South Korea saying “Not even one drop of ink must be allowed to fall in the Han River.”

    Worst Korea is finished, they just don’t know it yet!

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @Ano4
    , @Biff
  12. Hegar says:

    Iran’s average IQ is dragged down by Arabs, Kurds and other groups. Not by Persians.

    When the conservative revolution overthrew the shah’s kleptocracy, many communists and other socialists fled the country to become refugees in the West. Of all asylum-seeking groups, Iranians are the only ones who go to higher education in the same percentage as West Europeans. And of course, Iranians who have moved to Western Europe after that are even more skilled.

    There is a joke among Iranians in the West that when they grow up, they have a choice between becoming doctors or engineers. This is not far off. Persians are among those peoples who see it as a failure if their children don’t get a good education. They do not approve of the socialist “do whatever makes you happy!” excuse for laziness, or the Black, Arab, Kurd, Afghan mud life.

    • Agree: Yevardian, Realist
    • Replies: @utu
  13. @Blinky Bill

    I believe this to be the fundamental weakness South Korea has in comparison to Japan and China. A few million migrants from South East Asia have the ability to forever change the course of the Han River muddying and clogging it’s flow. While such a group would simply be dissolved in China by the Sea of Han.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  14. Some Guy says:

    Are the birth statistics for Best Korea reliable?

    • Replies: @Ano4
  15. Ano4 says:
    @Blinky Bill

    A bus full of South Koreans and a single Black dude, probably an Afro-American, who is aggressive towards a woman and all these South Koreans do absolutely nothing to end this chimp out?

    They need a reunification ASAP with Best Korea to live under the benevolent protection of the North Korean warrior elite. Comrade Kim needs save their arses from the Black Overlord!

  16. Ano4 says:
    @Some Guy

    As reliable as Best Korean COVID-19 statistics…

  17. monfils says:

    While still valuable, ICBMs are getting relatively less valuable because of SpaceX’s progress in reusable rockets and its cooperation with the Pentagon:

    https://futurism.com/the-byte/spacex-building-military-rocket-to-ship-weapons-anywhere-world

    [MORE]

    SpaceX and the Pentagon just signed a contract to jointly develop a new rocket that can launch into space and deliver up to 80 tons of cargo and weaponry anywhere in the world — in just one hour.

    SpaceX’s progress in reusable rockets means that soon the Pentagon will be able to implement something like Project Thor, which involves deploying conventional kinetic weapons into orbit. These are better than ICBMs, and only Russia and China’s nuclear subs and Russia’s underwater nuke tsunami weapons would be comparable.

    https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/10/spacex-bfr-and-developing-the-high-ground-is-the-geopolitical-game-changer.html

    There is a lot of talk about a hypersonic weapons arms race to create missiles and then a decade later hypersonic drones and then a decade after that hypersonic spy planes and fighter planes.

    It will cost tens of billions to develop these weapons for the USA, China, Russia and other nations.

    However, the USA will be gifted complete space dominance via Spacex fully reusable rockets. The US already has superior space capabilities versus other countries…

    Kinetic orbital strike (rods from god) is the hypothetical act of attacking a planetary surface with an inert projectile, where the destructive force comes from the kinetic energy of the projectile impacting at very high velocities.

    Project Thor is an idea for a weapons system that launches telephone pole-sized kinetic projectiles made from tungsten from Earth’s orbit to damage targets on the ground. Jerry Pournelle originated the concept while working in operations research at Boeing in the 1950s before becoming a science-fiction writer.

    The system most often described is “an orbiting tungsten telephone pole with small fins and a computer in the back for guidance”. The system described in the 2003 United States Air Force report was that of 20-foot-long (6.1 m), 1-foot-diameter (0.30 m) tungsten rods, that are satellite controlled, and have global strike capability, with impact speeds of Mach 10.

    The time between deorbit and impact would only be a few minutes, and depending on the orbits and positions in the orbits, the system would have a worldwide range. There would be no need to deploy missiles, aircraft or other vehicles. Although the SALT II (1979) prohibited the deployment of orbital weapons of mass destruction, it did not prohibit the deployment of conventional weapons. The system is not prohibited by either the Outer Space Treaty or the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.

    The idea is that the weapon would naturally contain a large kinetic energy, because it moves at orbital velocities, at least 8 kilometers per second. As the rod would approach Earth it would necessarily lose most of the velocity, but the remaining energy would cause considerable damage. Some systems are quoted as having the yield of a small tactical nuclear bomb. These designs are envisioned as a bunker buster. As the name suggests, the ‘bunker buster’ is powerful enough to destroy a nuclear bunker. With 6–8 satellites on a given orbit, a target could be hit within 12–15 minutes from any given time, less than half the time taken by an ICBM and without the launch warning. Such a system could also be equipped with sensors to detect incoming anti-ballistic missile-type threats and relatively light protective measures to use against them.

    In the case of the system mentioned in the 2003 Air Force report above, a 6.1 m × 0.3 m tungsten cylinder impacting at Mach 10 has a kinetic energy equivalent to approximately 11.5 tons of TNT (or 7.2 tons of dynamite).

    The US Space fleet could clean up the 500,000 pieces of space debris (20,000 pieces larger than a softball) and could hold the space debris in a space station warehouse. The junk would then also be able to formed into junk rods. A thousand smaller rods could be produced without having to fly specifically dedicated tungsten rods.

    This would be a very credible anti-missile system and a deterrent to any trivial nuclear missile capability from Iran and North Korea.

    It would also mean that Russia and China’s nuclear ICBMs would be less valuable militarily. Russia and China would have to depend upon nuclear armed submarines and submarine drones. Plus they would have to develop comparable reusable rocket capability.

    Russia would still be able to use underwater nuclear weapons to create tsunami attacks. Also, near shore submarine launched attacks would be pretty quick and tough to defend even for Project Thor.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Seph
  18. @128

    North Korean is a state of mind, not a race or an ethnic group!

    You speak the truth brother!

    • Agree: Ano4
  19. Ano4 says:
    @Blinky Bill

    Younger South Korean generations appear quite pozzed.

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3088516/black-lives-matter-koreans-uncomfortable-reminder-racial

    I suddenly feel much more appreciative of the whole Juche trope.

  20. songbird says:
    @sh1pman

    Hypergolics are highly volatile, not suitable for mobile launchers.

    Do you really need MIRVs, if you don’t have the scale to engage in MAD? Single warheads are sufficient, IMO. MAD is a false doctrine.

  21. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    “(whose IQ was surely inferred from South Korean test scores?)”

    No – the South is actually about 3 points higher… One point above Japan and China.

  22. utu says:
    @Hegar

    “There is a joke among Iranians…” – This reputation was earned by the success of 1980s Iranians immigrants mostly in LA that fared from middle and upper middle class and were in much higher proportion Jewish, Armenian and Bahais than Iran society. They do not seem to represent the current elites of Iran in ethno-cultural sense.

    Internal Ethnicity: Iranians in Los Angeles, Mehdi Bozorgmehr, Sociological Perspectives, Vol. 40, No. 3, Immigration and Incorporation (1997), pp. 387-408

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Showmethereal
  23. Not sure why people would be surprised. They are genetically the same people as in the South. I don’t know why this writers seems to want to see military action… That would be devastating to both sides. What the South needs is it’s own policy independence. Every time the South elects a government that adopts a “Sunshine Policy” to work well with the North – they get booted out in the next elections. Now Moon is in office and hoped to revive that policy – so we will see what happens.
    On the flip side – I’m not saying the North needs to become a liberal western democracy – but the Kim clan have held the people back. They could achieve much more with economic reforms.

  24. @utu

    Jewish, Armenian and Bahais

    Bahai is religion, not ethnicity

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  25. North Korea does not have “healthy, replacement level fertility”.

    It has had below replacement fertility since the early 2000s, and before that considering the extreme mortality rates of the late 20th century.

    Hence why every generation since the Sixties has gotten smaller.

    https://i0.wp.com/www.prb.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/northkoreapopulation.gif?w=570&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C333px&ssl=1

  26. This is how ancient Best Koreans brought civilization to the ancestors of the Japanese two millennia ago.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  27. Advanced Liquid fueled ICBMs can be stored much like solid fuelled ICBMs.Russia’s Satan and its successor Samaritan ICBMs use liquid fuels as does the Sinerva SLBMs.

    Though AFAIK only Russia/USSR has deployed storage liquid fuelled ICBM/SLBM.

    Such missiles have an advantage over Solid fuelled missiles in that you can throttle the engine up and down as against solid fuelled motors that pretty much burn flat out which allows more accuracy as well as more variable and unpredictable ballistic trajectories.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  28. @inertial

    [MORE]

  29. @128

    muh GDP
    muh GDP

    Ah, the mating cry of the cuckold vulgaris.

    • Troll: Anatoly Karlin
  30. @AnonFromTN

    What ethnicities typically follow that religion?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  31. @128

    Rwanda presumably produces military uniforms, but doesn’t produce diesel engines or vehicle chassis or MBTs or any kind of missiles, let alone MIRV’ed ICBMs. The minimal industrial base needed for all that is inconsistent with a Rwanda-like GDP per capita. GDP figures for North Korea (as with other centrally planned economies) are in any case largely meaningless, but my guess is that it would be around the $5-10k range, with the caveat that living standards would be vastly lower than is typical for that range due to consumption being vastly repressed (forced savings and military consumption) as well as the inherent inefficiencies of central planning.

    • Replies: @128
  32. Biff says:
    @Blinky Bill

    First thing I noticed when I went to South Korea was the niggas chimping out – that’s the problem when they gather in numbers. Obviously, the U.S. military has a major polluting effect where ever they are located.

  33. Max Payne says:

    They need to showcase blinding lasers like this (ZM-87):

    To explain why their special forces have such thick ass sun glasses:

    Because most people genuinely do not understand violence.

    No one was surprised with Irans missiles. This isn’t some high-tech crap. It’s 2020. Alright let me put my booze down and teach you girls how violence works:

    1) The thing about tanks:

    I get it. The North Korean modifications: wider tracks for swamps, aim higher, gas turbine engine for faster warmup, blah blah. They’re still modded out T-55s. Their only use is probably reactionary defense. Move to area, dig trench, bury yourself like a bitch, don’t forget the thermal blankets so science doesn’t rain freedom on you. Because frankly those tanks can be tracked by the EMISSIONS alone (visually, chemically, and thermally). Yes that is a thing. Science.

    Now the K2 Tank (apparently most expensive), that’s a fucking tank.

    2) Iran does not need nukes. To Iran, Israel is manageable with conventional arms. I understand people here have some autistic retarded fetish over Israel as a macho super competent military (even with its royal fuck ups and blatant homosexuality) because it won “major victories” against rural peasants, but the last 20 years has highlighted major shortcomings which Iran/world/5 year olds have noticed.

    For example:
    https://www.rt.com/news/499349-israeli-civilians-find-abandoned-tanks/

    Incompetence? Lack of discipline? No no. Just the IDF. When your military consists of dual citizens there is no need to take training or posture seriously. Not if yummy hummus is involved. If war breaks out most servicemen can go back to Germany or Sweden and get deepthroated by blue-eyed blonde fraulines while their buddies die in horrific phosphorous fires as their Merkavas get ATGM’d to death. Most Western nations are happy to accept Israeli immigrants, and why not, they do add value without doubt.

    North Korea on the other hand has to show China that it can’t cut off the supply chain without consequence. On top of fending off the US and the white tigers (SK, Japan). Not to mention an insurance plan against a lackadaisical Russia which probably might return to its old state of degeneracy once Great Leader Putin passes on & can’t witness the shame (one thing Russians do have is TRUE respect, the type you EARN; but Russians love their debauchery).

    [MORE]

    3) Leading into the most obvious conclusion South Korea is not Israel. Just because both share Western weapons does not mean SK will use it incompetently like Israel. SK can competently use its F-15/F-16s and not get hindered by tiny hills and quaint heights (like those of Lebanon).

    One can use the national martial art of each country to compare the difference in their understanding and application of violence as well as demonstrate competence in using physical assets for maximum effect.

    Krav Maga is an art of hitting defenseless passerbys by striking them in the crotch and gouging their eyes if you feel threatened in anyway (labeled aggravated assault in most places). I say defenseless because engaging anyone who has any form of martial art training with Krav Maga will get your ass kicked hard. It’s a bullshit art (the power of Israel: bullshit).
    vs
    Taekwondo, driven primarily with efficient (arguably greatest force) strikes (specifically kicks) with no throws or ground fighting. One might argue Taekwondo has the most technical kicks of all the martial arts.

    (I refer to non-Olympic variants of both because the second you throw a point-scoring system into a martial art its philosophy goes right out the window)

    South Korea understands how to apply technical strikes. South Korea will never get nuked as it would spell death for the reputation of NK INTERNALLY. Brother nuking brother is a shame white people won’t understand, so its safe to say an SK victory will not trigger MIRV attacks on Korea proper. Maybe USA or Japan sure.

    So with nukes off the table NK also understands that Kim Jong Un and major top (comfortable) leadership are probably monitored at minimum 50% of the time (where as Israel with all its might and USAs satellites can’t find some asshole with a turban even when he’s eating a shawarma in the streets of Beirut wearing a “I’m with Stupid” t-shirt). Sure major cities will be pock marked with shells and rocket fire but the large scale SEAD and air strikes SK can launch will reduce it to a manageable “incident” numbers after a VERY costly week. Pilots with no fear (unlike Israeli pilots using neutral Russians as cover without hesitation) against an opponent with no serious air force and a significant portion of defense as static weapon systems with only a small selection of truly advanced foreign imported systems is manageable and does not require WMDs to deal with (because again competence). Besides SK isn’t totally innocent, some of the rumored shit I’ve heard them plan in case of a war makes NK seem like a model law-abiding nation…

    To assume South Korea does not have assets in NK is not your average everyday stupid, but ADVANCED stupid. Yes I get it NK has many hidden tunnels, some rumored capable of delivering battalions to the south. But shit NK bitches all the time about hidden roads in the DMZ that seem to be highways for tanks on the SK side.

    It’s bad enough this gay ass war in jackfuckistan is boring me to death. At least the NKs didn’t have ALL their forces don those goofy fake NVGs like last time (as if they could supply them to their entire armed forces) and make them do that gay hop skip. How embarrassing….

    Since when were we accepting statistics from communist states willy nilly about births now? Trying to pick out a 6 million again?

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  34. I don’t get why there is this ongoing agenda to promote K-Pop in Western countries, especially the US. I’ve not seen it promoted much in the UK actually, but in the US it seems to be promoted almost alongside US pop music.

    Also, last year they gave that rubbish Korean film “Parasite” loads of Oscars, it seemed just because it was a Korean film. What was all that about?

    I assume it’s part of the same agenda to displace white/Anglo culture and promote non-whites and their “culture” as being the cultural elites? Traditionally I don’t think most Anglophones would have entertained listening to music in a foreign language, yet now they seem to be promoting listening to K-Pop in Korean, a language most don’t understand, as something perfectly normal, cool even.

  35. @ AK: Should many developing countries have lose some IQ points, due fertility-rate only dropping in the upper-classes/middle-classes?
    Will thise will be offset by slowly broadening education & better nutrition?

  36. I can’t see there being a conventional “boots on the ground war” of “The West” vs China, Russia, North Korea, etc, ie WW3.

    Mainly because Western countries are too racially and culturally mixed these days for large scale conscription and the idea of all fighting for a shared cause to ever be possible, especially in the US and UK. In the UK they have already been struggling to recruit for the military for years now, and usually fall vastly short of recruitment targets every year.

    I believe this is fundamentally because modern Britain is such a mix of races and nationalities that few feel any real allegiance to Britain any more, certainly not enough to sign up to fight its wars.

    Any attempt at conscription to fight a foreign war would be a non-starter in this country, and would more likely end in revolution and/or civil war here rather than fighting abroad.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  37. @128

    N korea is a very different low income country,it was an industrialized highly urbanized communist country,has had full literacy for 4 generations and a hard science focused higher education system modelled on the USSR.

    What happened to it was basically what would happen to S Korea if the Warsaw pact won the cold war and post such a cold war put crippling sanctions on it.

    Comparing its technical capabilities to an African country is as absurd as comparing Ukraine’s capabilities to that of Angola.

    The human and physical industrial capital stock was created during the USSR.

    The innate IQ of N Koreans is high but high IQ is not sufficient for national achievement. Quality of leadership,national pride,investment priorities and perceived external threats all contribute to that.

    Poland supposedly has the highest IQ among slavic countries but what are Poland’s achievements even on a per capita basis compared to Russia in the past 200 years?

    • Replies: @128
  38. Vendetta says:

    Sudan has actually taken some surprising steps toward building up a military industry without anyone really noticing. They are now Africa’s #3 military producer after South Africa and Egypt.

    Look into the Military Industrial Corporation. For now everything they make is a licensed or unlicensed copy of foreign equipment, but they produce a full range of small arms, artillery, and armored vehicles. Their aviation complex conducts maintenance and repair work and has assembled small prop planes before.

    Not inconceivable that they could move on to low-grade ballistic missiles sometime in the next twenty years, should they get enough Chinese investment and support.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  39. WHAT says:

    >can be bought on Ali Baba
    I’d like to see you buy a g-rated laser gyro there, lol.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  40. This shows why America’s elites don’t find Cuba’s holdover communist regime threatening, while they worry about North Korea’s. North Korea can punch above its weight because of its cognitive advantages, whereas Cuba couldn’t build nukes and ICBM-comparable rockets in a million years.

  41. oh well says:
    @Europe Europa

    yet now they seem to be promoting listening to K-Pop in Korean, a language most don’t understand, as something perfectly normal, cool even

    Now you how the rest of the world has been feeling about their radio for the past forever

    • Troll: EldnahYm
  42. @Europe Europa

    I assume it’s part of the same agenda to displace white/Anglo culture and promote non-whites and their “culture” as being the cultural elites?

    The English language is the vector for spreading evil around the world, why would they want to replace it?
    K-Pop was invented by a Japanese-American in any case.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  43. 128 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Enough to have agricultural productivity at medieval French standards? Judging by pictures of the countryside. As for diesel engines Russia was producing diesel engines back in the 30s. And one of the reasons why even Communist China in the 80s had a decent standard of living was that the percentage of GDP dedicated to the military was very small relative to the USSR, and also lower than Warpac countries, so more government resources could be shifted to the civilian sector, again what percentage of NK’s rural population, or even in places like Hamhung has access to 2000 calories a day, or basic drugs like co-Amoxiclav or ciproflocaxin?

    • Replies: @orionyx
  44. 128 says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Is that a good way to continue as a country though? Would the people there want to continue to live and die like that if they had a choice? I mean it is easy for you people here to praise living under Juche when you people here do not have to live out the consequences of your words.

  45. @128

    The overlap between the cohort who praise North Korea for its racialist outlook and those that oppose Russian racialism must be very very little.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, Ano4
  46. @Kent Nationalist

    I don’t really know why they want to displace English language music/culture, but there seems to be a push to do so. On a related note, it often seems that half the films promoted on Netflix at any one time are foreign language.

    I think while the English language is important to the “elites” as a sort of global Esperanto, I think ultimately the agenda is to overthrown Anglo cultural hegemony.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  47. @128

    What does choice mean in a population with enormous control on their inputs? I’m not sure if this analysis is supposed to be an moral observation on the humanitarian accomplishments of North Korea, rather an appraisal of what they have managed despite external claims to the contrary.

    Given the trends, it looks like they will last for quite some time indeed.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  48. @128

    It’s quite common for people to essentially praise Japan and East Asian countries in general for being racially homogeneous ethno-states but would consider it racist and appalling for a white to want their own country to be the same.

    Usually these sorts see absolutely no irony or hypocrisy in their position either, if they have to justify it they say the history of white countries is “different” and therefore it’s only natural that many white countries are melting pots, or deserved in some way because of colonialism.

  49. @Europe Europa

    K-pop is driven largely bottom up, for better or worse, and has been ongoing since at least the 90s. Eventually soft power in other nations exhibits itself – you make it sound like some sort of magic decided by elites.

    It isn’t.

  50. @Daniel Chieh

    I feel that British soft power is dying actually. This country’s most famous pop singers at the moment are probably Dua Lipa and Rita Ora, a Kosovar and an Albanian. There’s nothing the slightest bit British about those two, they epitomise globalism and the idea of Britain as a sort of “melting pot” with no culture or tradition of its own.

    It’s sad because this country used to be basically a powerhouse of pop culture, Britain was very much associated with pop music globally, but now all it seems to produce is these ethnically non-British, globalised personalities who have nothing British about them at all.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @dfordoom
  51. @Europe Europa

    North Korea, as its Best Korea moniker might imply, was more of a meme country but its a meme that has come to actually have some successes.

    I’ve mentioned this before and so have a number of others who actually live or are in China like Spandrell or Junebug but there’s never been a contradiction for such nations to be resistant to immigration since the idea is that the barriers are high but never insurmountable.

    Its essentially the assimilation ideal but at the extremely high cost to assimilation and since effort is seen as a moral good, those who don’t put in sufficient effort as seen as deserving of rejection.

    To an extent that it is hypocritical, it is no more so than the typical contextual and complex nature of all East Asian Confucian cultures, where both extreme control and decadence is accepted as a matter of course, so as long as the proper rituals are made up.

    • Replies: @128
  52. @Daniel Chieh

    There was once a time where the supremacy of Western liberalism (which in one form or another dominates the West today) was taken for granted and it was said that all these evil authoritarian regimes had to protect their citizens from its wonders to stop them casting away their chains and joining the Western way of thinking.

    I wonder if it may actually be beneficial for these sorts of nations to open up now, and allow their citizens to see the disaster that is the West so they can learn about how their own way of doing things is superior?

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  53. 128 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    How do we know if any of those actually work or are just props? For the tanks I mean.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Blinky Bill
  54. @128

    Is that a good way to continue as a country though? Would the people there want to continue to live and die like that if they had a choice? I mean it is easy for you people here to praise living under Juche when you people here do not have to live out the consequences of your words.

    Do not worry. When true patriotic, based and juche pilled government finally comes to power in Russia, our esteemed host will stay safe.

    • LOL: Ano4
  55. @Daniel Chieh

    So wrong. Korean pop was deliberately invented as Korean big guvmint project to create some soft power for South Korea, and it succeeded beyond any expectation.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/04/13/399414351/how-the-south-korean-government-made-k-pop-a-thing

    In the late ’90s, when Asia went through a huge financial crisis, South Korea’s leaders decided to use music to improve its image and build its cultural influence. So the country’s government poured millions of dollars into forming a Ministry of Culture with a specific department devoted to K-pop.

    “It turns out that the Korean government treats its K-pop industry the way that the American government treats its automobile and banking industry, meaning that these are industries that have to be protected,” Hong says.

    Of course, the question is what effect “soft power” really have.
    If Kim really decides to liberate the Worst Korea and US decides not to bother, will teenage Kpop fans start protesting and rioting?

  56. @128

    I suppose it is also worth noting that it is in the interest of the military industrial complex to play up antagonist capabilities so that they will hopefully get more investment.

  57. oh well says:
    @128

    Is that a good way to continue as a country though?

    Since most Norks are breeding at more-than replacement rates, they seems to agree that there is indeed a future for them as a people, despite the stress of military spending, sanctions and living in less than western standards. This is the problem with which GDP-worshippers are yet to come to terms with – making people live until their 80s, giving them high-speed internet and more consumer items than they can hold, apparently doesn’t convince them of purposefulness of their lives and procreation, compared to “impoverished”, but spiritually hardened citizens of a hereditary dictatorship.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  58. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I wouldn’t say K-pop is completely laissez-faire. Some of it is serendipitous – SK was at the right stage of development – transitioning from a third world country to make a push on the third world – to have it as a mental target. And Koreans – probably through earlier elite influences – were nationalistic enough to sustain a domestic market, when protections were removed. But, I would say, it has been, or at least quickly became, a fairly unique economic/strategic concern among the government there. There is some agency that assists in dubbing – and they are really mindful of the wealth it generates.

    That said, their target is mainly immature markets in the Third World – not the mature markets of the West. I would say that most of their products don’t receive heavy promotion here – it is people fleeing diversity, by and large, with the strongest separate input being ideological concerns of the Western media, promoting films with a more communist message, like Snowpiercer, while largely ignoring the non-ideological ones.

    Do our elites want us consuming K-pop? No, they want us consuming Hollywood miscegenation propaganda, without any kind of censorship board protecting the morals of Korean youth.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  59. @another anon

    K-Pop was invented by the CIA to feminise Asian men

  60. @Almost Missouri

    As to the best of my knowledge there is nothing named “bihai”, I assumed that Baha’i faith was meant. It’s adherents in Iran come from all ethnic groups. You can find more here:
    https://www.bahai.org/

    Just be aware that this is their own site, so you can get all the good things there are, but nothing bad (to find other perspective on this faith, search with “baha’i faith”, preferably using an engine more honest than google and sites more honest than Wiki).

  61. 128 says:

    What is the rest of the country outside Pyongyang like?

  62. SIMP simp says:
    @Europe Europa

    I like kpop because it’s more wholesome and conservative. Kpop is what country and christian rock dream to be: fun but without much nudity, 0 drugs and no glorification of sexual degeneracy or anti-social values.
    Female idols wear safety shorts all the time, including under skirts or daisy dukes. Male idols get conscripted and serve 2 years in the military. Those caught smoking pot or gambling even overseas get questioned by police and may suffer serious criminal and professional consequences. There is only 1 openly LGB idol and he is very low tier. Idols have a dating ban, usually for the first 3 years and even after that they avoid celebrity dating scandals, so there’s no songs about sleeping around. No beefs or drama either, even on idol reality shows where the stakes can be real and very high.
    I remember a kpop concert where a major girl group played a video dedicated to teachers. Can you imagine a major american pop star doing that?

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  63. @songbird

    Do our elites want us consuming K-pop? No, they want us consuming Hollywood miscegenation propaganda, without any kind of censorship board protecting the morals of Korean youth.

    I think the elites ideally want whites consuming both, not because of any morals or standards K-Pop may promote but because they want whites to see Koreans, ie non-whites, as cultural elites of higher artistic merit.

    Over the last few years there’s been a gradual but obvious push to promote East Asians as cultural elites, like with the film “Crazy Rich Asians”, and giving that Korean film “Parasite” loads of Oscars and portraying it as some sort of masterpiece.

  64. Mitleser says:
    @Vendetta

    It is not surprising that a North African country with a non-significant population which has to deal with sanctions successfully invent into developing some basic military industry.

  65. @Europe Europa

    I’m not sure of the takeaway is that East Asian cultural products don’t have artistic merit but that’s a very silly idea.

    Its probable that there’s some boost from the elites but a lot of the upswell was genuinely organic – anime, for example, was seen as very low status but nonetheless assembled a cult following.

    At some point it feels like this can slide into a “kids play Japanese vidya because the Illuminati want them too” which is really dumb.

  66. @another anon

    Its not so much the production of it, which was likely government supported, but most centrally planned entertainment fails. The organic aspect is more in regards to the rather unexpected fandom of K-pop, like when Girl’s Generation began to have massive voting campaigns supporting them; I remember it surprising industry insiders because SNSD and the entire Korean music industry wasn’t even on the radar at one point.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
  67. @Mitleser

    I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself.

    [MORE]

  68. Rahan says:

    North Korea has normal relations with a) China and b) Russia.

    Therefore Chinese and Russian tourists go there and then write about their travels.
    Even cycling routes n sheit https://atsman.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%8F%20%D1%81%20%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0

    So how about certain readers use the magic of the Internets and see what’s what with NK through the eyes of Russian and Chinese tourist bloggers? This is 2020. What is the point of living in the same restricted low-information bubble about the rest of the world like it’s 1985, if it’s bloody 2020?

    Not that NK is a land of plenty and liberties, but at least make the effort to compare reality to phantasm…

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  69. I have not seen the movie Crazy rich Asians, but in my knowledge Asians in that movie were Protestant Christians. All Asian Protestants are traitors. That was a good enough reason to support CCPs victory over KMT in Chinese civil war.

    Ancient Romans divided systems of faith in two groups: religio and superstitio. First one was beneficial for society and upholds the very fabric of civilization, latter is dangerous cult. Its good that CCP continues this tradition of Classical world and ancient Chinese dynasties by outlawing and campaigning against heterodox cults 邪教. But still CCP does not go far enough with promotion of traditional faiths and with the fight against the heterodox cults…. Oh well at least they saved China from the religious situation of South Korea.

    I almost forgot, soon Dmitry or someone claims that Christianity was superstition or dangerous and revolutionary cult, but early Church prayed for the well being of the emperors and the empire, even under persecution. Church father Tertullian himself wrote that its proper and Christian to pray for the pagan emperors wellbeing and majesty, but not to pray for pagan gods. I’m not sure, but I remember that St Paul too prayed for the emperor.

    I have my strong opinion about the Bahais, but better to leave it for another time. But at least I will say this, that they believe to be the next phase in the development of religion, some kind of advanced religion, but there is something fishy about them… Their goal by the way is the unification of the humanity, they don’t believe in nations and their HQ is in quite strange location for a Persian faith.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  70. @AltanBakshi

    Dangerous and revolutionary cults, which lack a true transcendent/divine impulse never pray for the wellbeing of those who are outside of their sect or persecute them.

  71. @Rahan

    I actually had a friend visit there a few years back. It felt like a kind of medieval hierarchy with the military and its supporting people privileged over the majority but it wasn’t widespread misery. He described it as a functioning religious cult organized around worship of Dear Leader and various myths of national greatness, basically – certainly creepy on many levels but better than many places seen a third world.

    Can’t wait for England to adopt Juche and worship the Bojo.

    • Thanks: Rahan
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  72. Rahan says:
    @Europe Europa

    if they have to justify it they say the history of white countries is “different” and therefore it’s only natural that many white countries are melting pots, or deserved in some way because of colonialism.

    They do, don’t they. And then they apply the same civilization-dismantling cancer to for example Ireland, which was the opposite of a colonial power throughout its history.
    https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/08/30/become-other-than-white-ireland-and-radical-jewish-activism/

    Everyone kicked the shit out of the Irish since the dawn of time. And yet they also go under the knife.
    And Finland. And they try to apply it to Eastern Europe, also former colonies the lot (of Turkey or Austria or Russia), and get all worked up when the “defective whites” refuse to “follow the lead of their betters”.

    The fact that they did this to Ireland is what makes their whole “karma” argument collapse. It’s not “justice”. It’s hate.

  73. @utu

    Persians were historically advanced people. Iran are Perisan people. Most of those in the LA area are very proud of being Persian. They are the same – except they tend to be secular – which is why they left.

  74. @Daniel Chieh

    One thing is clear: NK is neither Hell nor Paradise. As far as freedom of speech goes, South Korea is hardly much better: saying anything good about NK there is a crime punishable by jail time. Considering recent attacks on free speech in the EU and the US, the difference between those “bastions of freedom” and NK dwindles. I don’t see much difference between strict control of all media by the “party” and control of all MSM by degenerate moneyed elites. Lugenpresse is lying regardless who controls it. Sad, but true.

    • Agree: JackOH, dfordoom
  75. @Showmethereal

    Persians were historically advanced people.

    I see a problem with this essentially true statement: it does not quite apply to present-day Iran. Persians constitute no more than half if its population, there are lots of Azeris and other historically non-advanced (to put it mildly) people. FYI, Iran abandoned the original Persian writing system and replaced it with inferior Arabic one. While I respect Iran’s desire to retain sovereignty, they have only their determination and oil going for them. The history of Persia is just that – history.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  76. @Europe Europa

    I dont think anyone claims about Europe being white. They complain about Australia – New Zealand – US – Canada because they displaced Native populations and attempted to kake them white countries. As to Europe now – people only say Europe needs to take in refugees because NATO has destibilized many nations. Nobody expects South Korea or even Russia to take in refugees pouring through Libya – because they didnt cause it. NATO did.

    • LOL: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Coconuts
  77. @SIMP simp

    Not disputing what you said but they do commit suicide fairly regularly… But then again that society overall has a culture of suicide.

  78. @Showmethereal

    Iran is run by Azeri Mullahs and Azeri heavy revolutionary guards and Vevak.

    Persians are less than 50% of the population and have the lowest birthrate of any major group in Iran.

    Past glory is a very poor predictor of future greatness.

    LA Persians are a joke as are their counterparts in Northern Tehran. Wannabe Europeans who go on and on about their ‘Aryan’ civilization and how Nazi Germany considered them Aryans.On YouTube there are many ridiculous cringeworthy Iran German are brother countries type videos uploaded by Iranians.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  79. Coconuts says:
    @Showmethereal

    As to Europe now – people only say Europe needs to take in refugees because NATO has destibilized many nations. Nobody expects South Korea or even Russia to take in refugees pouring through Libya – because they didnt cause it. NATO did.

    What is NATO doing in Equatorial Africa? Why did Germany and Sweden take so many refugees from Syria?

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  80. songbird says:
    @Mitleser

    Sudan is like the Arab version of the Dominican Republic, if they had let more Haitians in.

    I imagine that a lot of oil money has crossed over, as it is a country with a high agricultural potential near countries like Saudi Arabia, which have a very low potential, and with some cultural ties to them.

  81. songbird says:
    @Europe Europa

    I think “Crazy Rich Asians” (haven’t seen it) is kind of a separate trend.

    [MORE]

    There is a woke movement to pretend like Asians are disadvantaged for lack of representation in Hollywood films and that it is the white man keeping them down. To call anything “whitewashed”, when it is adapted from overseas and filled with a multicult cast and one white lead, with a black love interest. Or when it is an East-meets-West plot, with a European or two in the East, as if Asians never did the opposite, like had Bruce Lee in Rome, or Jackie Chan in different European countries, or Marco Polo had never lived, but it is perfectly natural to have medieval or Roman Europe filled with blacks and Pakis.

    It is shocking how many woke Asians in America adhere to this black-like sense of grievance.

    Of course, the whole thing is silly, from a nationalist perspective. Asians have a larger movie market than Europeans do – they have much greater representation than Europeans do, and it is way more national and culturally-oriented. For all the faults of their entertainment industry, they effectively have a kind of utopia, that Europeans can only dream about.

    Of course, if I had my way, everyone would get a bigger slice of Hollywood, so that Europeans would be forced out entirely, to create their own center of cultural production, with zero multicult messaging or Jewish participation. It would be the Jews and everyone else in Hollywood, giving out woke awards to each other for gay movies.

    • Replies: @Mary Marianne
  82. @Europe Europa

    The only scenario where one could expect the modern British to sign up to fight would be if Britain was being invaded; and even then, if the invading power was a coalition of Muslim powers then you would expect large swathes of the British defence to lay down their arms and welcome the invaders.

  83. @Europe Europa

    This is absolutely true. Despite their belief and promotion of Eastern religions, there always remained something distinctly British about George Harrison and Pete Townsend. Despite promoting an early form of globalism and being the son of a foreign service official, Joe Strummer was still British. Damon Albarn, Morrissey etc were all British in their own peculiar way. However, the latest products of ‘British pop culture’ are distinctly non-British.

  84. @Europe Europa

    This is how the American entertainment political economy works. It needs to regularly promote novel entertainment products to sustain profits for that industry. The churn is essential to how it sustains itself. Today it is K-Pop. It is only a matter of time for Mauritanian Al-kahla music to be heavily promoted to vulnerable deracinated American youth and Mauritanian New Wave films to be promoted as being ‘thought provoking’, ‘ground-breaking’, ‘challenging’ and so on. Next will be Tuvalu or Lesotho. We will never run out of obscure ethnic groups or other communities because new ones are created all time.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  85. Yevardian says:
    @Vishnugupta

    Indians have no right to talk about ‘Aryan’ cringe.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
  86. @Coconuts

    “What is NATO doing in Equatorial Africa?” Well aside from colonization and sucking the resources for over a century – not much now… But NATO was party to Hillary Clinton and France’s designs on Libya. That opened the floodgates.

    To be honest though – I’m not sure why Sweden decided to take in Syrian refugees… Could be because for whatever reason – they have been drawing closer to NATO (supposedly because of Russia). So maybe it was to score political points…??? I honestly don’t know. NATO indeed was supporting the Sunni governments and militant jihadists who they wanted to topple Assad. So maybe that was Sweden’s way of showing solidarity.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Coconuts
    , @Hojer
  87. @AnonFromTN

    So 50% of the population means it’s not a Persian country…??? hmmmmm Ok. So in your mind they need to be Zoroastrians to be Persian??? Persians are still a majority of the country… It’s not that complicated.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @AnonFromTN
  88. @showmethereal

    Same reason why Sweden Yes! does feminist snow shoveling. Its a meme nation for a reason.

  89. Rahan says:
    @128

    You know that their state of the art tank is likely to be as state of the art in terms of its FCS as a Leopard 1 from the year 1980 right?

    Everyone’s army is 90% tech from that time, including the US, Russia, China, Turkey, and Europe. Just continuously “modernized”. Apache helicopter gunships and Mi-24, F-15, F-16, Mig-29, Su-27, Thunderbolts, all that jazz. The backbone of everyone’s armies is the same it was 30-40 years ago.

    It looked modern enough during the first Iraqi War, but since progress flattened, it’s still the same stuff, aside from costly prototypes and developments in electronics and drones.

    Having the equivalent of a T-80 or an early Abrams is nothing to sneeze at. Worst Korea already has better domestic tanks, on the basis of which Turkey is trying to making its leap into the 21st century, but that’s neither here nor there.

    If some low-budget crew from Nebraska sit down and record the equivalent of a 1980s speed metal album, or 1970s stoner rock, I’m still impressed, even if it’s nothing original… Especially keeping in mind that music after that became toxic crud.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
  90. @showmethereal

    It would be interesting to hear from Tajiks, Dari-speaking Afghans, Tajik-speaking Uzbeks and Kurds how they feel about Persian culture or Persian ethnic identity. As far as I know their version of Persian is very similar to Iranian Persian. But is there any ethnic solidarity or is it only linguistic? Or, how about internal non-Persian Iranian people like Lurs, Gilakis and Balochis? What potential is there for a superpower to tear Iran apart or even for a more powerful Iran to consolidate their Persian-speaking neighbours into some cultural or economic bloc.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @Yevardian
  91. @128

    First of all running a country according to what people ‘want’ is a fairly certain way of ruining it.

    I think its fairly obvious to everyone by now that a one man one vote democracy in which people vote themselves goodies from the public purse and the electability of a politician is based on their ‘popularity’ with a 2 digit IQ average voter is fundamentally flawed even if the process wasn’t hijacked by special interest groups pushing an agenda which this form of government is more susceptible to than any other.

    As is evident,this has brought about the biggest relative decline of the west since the collapse of the Roman Empire to say nothing of the fact that this such an arrangement doesn’t work in any other form of human organization be it a corporation or a family.

    N Koreans may want to live differently but the fact that N Korea can achieve these technical feats despite all the odds against them is praiseworthy and in the long term worth it as this gives N Koreans a considerable say in their future rather than being reduced to mute spectators with no control over their future with their fates decided in meetings between great powers like so many other similarly sized countries.

  92. Smith says:

    Just drop in to say K-Pop is 100% CIA funded bullshit.

    I legit don’t understand why it’s so popular even in Asia.

    J-pop and anime sure, because they sound like 80s rock and have sci-fi plotline that are quite eyecatching. And they have toys and video games to boost them up.

    But K-Pop is a bunch of boy band singing like negros. And yet billions of fans.

  93. @Yevardian

    Thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion.

  94. EldnahYm says:
    @Showmethereal

    Irrelevant. Finns are a historically primitive people but they have higher IQs than Southern Europeans, Middle Eastern peoples, and Armenians, all of which have a long history of civilization.

  95. @Blinky Bill

    No. The Japanese imperial family belong to the Ainu Y-DNA haplogroup D1b, which is also the most common lineage among Japabese males, meaning the “Best Koreans” actually were just mail-order brides.

    https://peaceandjustice.freeforums.net/thread/852/japanese-emperors-dna-haplogroup-d1b1a2

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  96. EldnahYm says:
    @oh well

    North Korea is below replacement and its average age creeps up every year. Their fertility is pathetic for a poor country. North Korea is just a slower version of what liberal countries are doing. In another generation they will be similar to what East Asian countries are now.

    • Replies: @songbird
  97. EldnahYm says:
    @Europe Europa

    Anglo culture is mostly dead in the U.S. already tbh. Maybe some forms of “redneck” culture are still a holdover, but that’s about it(and mainstream “redneck” culture is incredibly fake even by the low standards of pop culture). In film, the Anglo has been on the decline since before the silent era ended. Food might be the one area where Anglo culture isn’t totally dead in the U.S., but it is rapidly heading that way.

  98. Seph says:
    @monfils

    Reusable rockets have nothing to do with that. The resupply isn’t accounted for and thus prices of these reusable rockets are barely that much of a Soyuz.

    While payload isn’t there yet, Soyuz 6 will be sufficient. They (Russia) always had the ability to easily fill space with weapons. Same with China and USA. Reusable rockets means squat in this equation other than it makes Musk richer and tax payers still pay for a private company when NASA could do the same.

    • Replies: @mal
  99. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Might as well straighten out a number of wild misconceptions.

    SNSD. Spectacular group. Blew away Asian and most importantly Japanese/Korean audiences and were the first to perform arena level all-girl group concerts. Prior to them a Kpop girl group had never soloed an arena concert. This had nothing to do with the Korean government. Absolutely nothing.

    Kpop has very deep roots going back into the 90s and earlier. None of which was sponsored by the government. I believe SeoTaeJi is considered the first modern Kpop singer. He was the first to incorporate rap and hip hip. On a music show, he got the lowest ranking by the jury. But he got great traction and popularity from teens, usually disaffected, that were tired of the standard drivel of that time. Turns out that SeoTaeJi is actually a superb musician and rapper.

    This was the groundbreaking performance in 1992 that introduced rap to Korean pop music. After this, rap and hip hip became must have part of Kpop:

    BTW, turns out that Seo Taiji is actually a superb musician.

    Seo Taiji launched a new era Kpop idol hip hop bands like H.O.T., Roora, Sech Kies. Again, nothing to do with the Korean government. Okay?

    Don’t be bumpkins. (Not saying you are DC, but some of the other posters, sheesh)

  100. “Even Iran”

    Have you observed Ali Reza Firouzja at 17, challenging Magnus Carlsen?

    He can’t play under an Iranian flag because of the Jews. The Jews go around murdering Iranian scientists, the Americans try to abduct them and trump up false charges against them.

    ZOG has stopped trying to develop its own intellects as they represent a threat, and hopes to kill off the competitors or rely on artificial intelligence.

  101. Coconuts says:
    @showmethereal

    Well aside from colonization and sucking the resources for over a century – not much now… But NATO was party to Hillary Clinton and France’s designs on Libya. That opened the floodgates.

    NATO isn’t a territorial entity with an immigration policy or an economic policy. There is an argument (that I think the O/P was referencing) that countries with a colonial past should be forced to accept demographic replacement as a form of reparations migration but the expansion of this to all NATO countries is a nice extra touch.

    I honestly don’t know. NATO indeed was supporting the Sunni governments and militant jihadists who they wanted to topple Assad. So maybe that was Sweden’s way of showing solidarity.

    None of this is relevant to why those refugees were accepted.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  102. @Hacienda

    Don’t consume this rubbish culture

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • LOL: Hacienda
    • Replies: @songbird
  103. @Hacienda

    Arguably the most useless post on this website of all time.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, utu
  104. orionyx says:
    @128

    Access to ciproflocaxin is a curse, not a blessing.

    • Agree: Mary Marianne
  105. The World’s only operational conventionally powered ballistic missile submarine.

    [MORE]

  106. @128

    There were many systems I have never seen before during this parade. In my opinion since their ICBM and nuclear program have already past their R&D phase and are no longer a priority developments, they are now able to switch all those resources to conventional forces development and these are far less resource intense. It’s also easier to get components from Alibaba for such projects.

  107. @128

    England’s agricultural productivity is terrible, probably the only major nation in Europe that imports most of its food, and what food Britain does produce is mostly produced in NI, Scotland and Wales not in England.

    If you take into account specifically English farming, it produces an insignificant amount of the UK’s food requirements despite England having the vast majority of the good farming land.

  108. Vendetta says:
    @Mitleser

    It sounds perfectly natural, but Syria hasn’t done it, Algeria hasn’t done it, Myanmar hasn’t done it, Libya didn’t do it, etc.

    Most countries with oil money just stick to buying foreign equipment. It was a smart investment for Sudan to make back in the 1990s, before they lost the south and much of their oil revenue with it.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  109. Vendetta says:
    @Max Payne

    At the end of the day, though, it’s always been the Iranians who’ve gone to the North Koreans for military and technical assistance, whether on ballistic missiles, on submarines, or even on tanks and long range artillery back in the 1980s. Never the other way around.

    Perhaps the Iranians might have a thing or two to teach the Koreans about drones these days. Converting the MiG-17/MiG-19 fleet into remote-controlled kamikazes would probably be a good way to get some last use out of them.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  110. North Korea adds new haircut to its fashion Arsenal?

  111. @Vendetta

    Vendetta your comments, especially those concerning military affairs are top notch. You comment far too infrequently, this should change!

  112. Hojer says:
    @showmethereal

    …why Sweden decided to take in Syrian refugees… So maybe that was Sweden’s way of showing solidarity…

    IMO the answer is simple – majority of (swedish) people wants to be good and nice and progressivists are teaching many decades that to prove one is good and nice means to hate your own (european) nation and love other (non-european) nations. So the reason is politicians gaining popularity by inviting Syrians/Africans/Asians to Sweden and West in general, which is in line not only with lügenpresse but with a large number of voters. Sweden excels in this “progress”. Luckilly here in central Europe we are a bit retarted in that, with (endless budget) propaganda rolling strongly here as well.

  113. songbird says:
    @Hacienda

    It is kind of interesting to compare the choreography of K-pop (highly elaborate) to the mass games of NK.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Hacienda
  114. songbird says:
    @EldnahYm

    Arguably, it is not wealth that drops TFR through the floor, so much as it is civilization.

    • Agree: Ano4
  115. @Hacienda

    To be honest, I’ve never particularly cared for k-pop(or most pop) in general and the increased rap stylings plus piercings on pretty boys are overall dumb to me.

    But I did know SNSD through some white girls who were big on doing Youtube dance covers, people that would be called “influencers” and through getting to know one rather personally realized that the sheer degree of fangirl fanaticism was not an act at all: for many, it had become a defining portion of identity. Its a bit like Japanese idols(cute girls with fake personalities) but somehow appeals to girls, creating a fantasy of sisterhood and physical perfection.

    Can’t sat that I’m fond of any of it, though cute girls are cute of course. Its interesting to observe.

    Better than fat positivity. Its not really that much culture though, and my opinion of a lot of Korean products is tha t they come off oddly soulless(same applies to most Chinese cultural exports until miyohio, which I could put my finger on and say: sci-fi with reincarnation theme and collectivist but self-doubting morals, definitely Chinese)

    • Replies: @Smith
    , @Hacienda
  116. Smith says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The best chinese cultural exports in modern times are Jin Yong novels, and some TVB adaptation of them (Demi-god & semi-devils, the Proud & Smiling Wanderer, the Lord of Mount Deer, a Deadly Secret are my favorite).

    They are pretty much famous all around Asia and SEA.

    Too bad the 00s came and the chinese become obsessed with those high fantasy wuxia (now called tianxa) with “cultivation” and shit and never move on from there.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  117. @Smith

    Nothing wrong with high fantasy. At any rate, lots of cyberpunk/sci-fi as of late which I am personally fond of. Genshin Impact made 100 million dollars and its budget back in two weeks, so they’re doing something right.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Smith
  118. songbird says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Some of their movies aren’t bad.

    But even if one thinks it is all trash, better to have their effluent competing for mind space with the multicult effluent of America.

  119. @showmethereal

    Present-day Iran is about 50% Persia and 50% inferior to Persia. Not a very promising mix.

    BTW, I never said anything about Zoroastrianism, I mentioned the system of writing.

  120. @Hojer

    Unfortunately, from what I know, you are right. This is a prevalent Swedish state of mind, still.

  121. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Better than fat positivity. Its not really that much culture though, and my opinion of a lot of Korean products is tha t they come off oddly soulless

    This is a common complaint and has a lot of merit to it. Kpop dance is too synchronized, the music unoriginal, the lyrics are trivial. It’s too manufactured, too top-down. But I have another theory that music has become so naturally a part of the human brain that just about any form of music is something people will come to enjoy. Beethoven, Korean classical music, African drumming, house, techno, trance, and yeah rap, as long as there is a rythmn and notes, people will enjoy, even crave it.

    You can call any music “soulless”. I like classical music, a lot. But it’s definitely a luxury, high-end product. How much money is spent to play Beethoven’s 9th? You have to pay 100+ musicians. And since they must be highly skilled and have gone through immense training and practice time, you are spending tens of thousands of dollars for the production on one song. But you put Eminem up on stage to extemporize, and he’s producing a song for pennies. That’s a great return. It’s not a question of why there isn’t more classical music. It’s a question of how classical music still manages to exist.

    Kpop model of music production also makes a lot of sense economically. There’s an incredible amount of Darwinian competition, so a few large companies- SM, YG, Big Hit rig the game. And they rig it mostly to suit the standards of Korean culture. Not a lot room for creativity or flexibility, but also enough to allow “innovators” like Big Bang, or BTS to rise up. Also enough control to keep out the “weeds”, the “trash”. Cardi B, Rhianna, even Beyonce are not gonna make it in the genre of Kpop. Good thing too. Keep them in America where they belong.

  122. Hartnell says:
    @Vishnugupta

    But this is the whole point nowadays. People want a good quality of life. They are individuals. They do not want to sacrifice themselves for national glory anymore. They care about having a good life for themselves, not about having the best tank in the world. It is the rise of individualism and it is a process I think cannot be stopped unless economic resources run out.

  123. @Hartnell

    People want a good quality of life.

    That does not explain why they condone importation of incompatible savages that destroy their quality of life. One typical example: did the quality of life of Parisians improve when Paris became veritable Dakar? Did Notre Dame burn because the quality of life in Paris improved?

  124. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Co-ordination of South Korean popular dancing represents one of the main fears which is habituated into their society – to be full of fear about mistaking a mistake, and to have nightmares about being out of sync with the others.

    There is some sense of horror in this over co-ordinated dancing, which reminds of the 1930s in the Soviet Union. And when we look at North Korea, we can see why – among another branch of the same nationality, the result of nonconformism can be the labour camp.

    Here is also likely why South Korean youth would have “higher scores” in some “IQ tests”, compared to nationalities like England or Germany (note those latter populations have the world’s intellectual achievements, while Koreans have very few) – these multiple choice “IQ tests” are mainly measuring conformism of the youth. The latter itself of course, can be an art, and require certain intellectual ability.

    For example, in the PISA “maths test” – we see you have to often choose a technically wrong answer. But it requires you to divine the intention of the people who design the questionnaire. This itself can be a useful survival skill.

    For Western nonconformists, to idealize the higher state capacity of the conformist society, is predictable, but also a little ironic. (It’s natural for people to idealize those values they feel are lacking in their own life.)

    When there was a terrorist attack in Paris in autumn 2015, hundreds of millions of people in Facebook changed their profile picture to include a French flag. These are the people in the West who if they were re-incarnated in an oriential despotism, would be the least likely to go to the labour camp. These are the people who don’t need to worry about “bourgeois democracy” – they will be fine under different political systems.

    But if you don’t add French flag on your Facebook 2015, and didn’t enjoy watching co-ordinated Korean dancing – then perhaps you can begin to worry about being perhaps “evolutionarily unsuited” soul for avoiding things like labour camps.

    Also some people above arguing about not observing things like Korean pop music. But it is in bad art, that the national and political characteristics are more displayed.

    Great art can be like distilling alcoholic drinks. The great art removes much more impurities of its time and place. They will be playing Beethoven symphonies on spaceships, and knowledge about Vienna of the early 19th century has little essentiality to them.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @songbird
  125. @Hacienda

    You can call any music “soulless”. I like classical music, a lot.

    I disagree wholeheartedly and this applies to art in general. Art has themes and meaning, and it broadcasts them to those consuming them; something is soulless when it really has almost no meaning or a very confused theme. Take, for example, Eminem’s Lose Yourself – its a very obvious pump-up song with the notion of throwing everything you have into one moment, to lose yourself and forget the entire complexities of life and just go for the throat now. It might be rap, but its not an inaccurate message for life for many athletes(or criminals for that matter).

    Music often doesn’t need lyrics to provide its meaning, thus the beauty of purely orchestral music such as the much overused Ride of the Valkyries, but there’s an entire genre of theme music that provides complexity, pathos or bombast as it might be. One of my favorite is Korean, in fact, Yiruma’s “Kiss the Rain.”

    But modern Korean art mostly comes off as a very hollow. K-pop in particular does provide a kind of cultural inflection upon its consumers(including Western ones), but its both sad and hilarious and very South Korean: be pretty. No doubt it has sold off not only its records and concerts, but endless quantities of cosmetics and plastic surgery, but its really rather silly. You even see this in game output(and I work with one Seoul-based group, incidentally), where Black Desert Online has amazingly pretty graphics but otherwise Korean MMOs are essentially grinders. There used to be more innovative efforts such as Shattered Galaxy, but most of that seems to have all gone away. Even when almost narrative-free, something like Dark Souls manages to convey across a better spirit of meaning, both rather Japanese of mono no aware(melancholy for all passing things) and the typical gambatte!gambatte! attitude.

    There’s this in the mihioyio games, too, which go rather extensively into Chinese themes of reincarnation and particularly the considerations of 忠 vs 孝(loyalty to country vs loyalty to family), and it reimagines it “loyalty to humanity vs loyalty to love” on many levels, arguably an exploration of the contrast of individuality versus communitarian goals(literally contrasted by one character screaming, “I’ll save the world, even if it costs my life” versus “I’ll save you, my friend, even if it costs the entire world.”).

    Besides its movies, Korean media right now seems just very focused on the emotional rather than any depth. Much of it is technically excellent(though some of the pacing is extremely questionable), but there seems to be somehow deeply imitative and hollow. There’s this story of someone who visited North Korea as some sort of culinary talent and he showed them to make a pizza – so the students actually measured with a tape on the exact size and distribution of toppings. Very precise, but can’t help but feel that it misses the point somewhat. I’ve felt this too working with a Korean group, that wanted to mimick an American game but with very little idea or interest of the spirit behind it(if someone wants to make something Lovecraftian, for example, and bases it in New England, its due to an entire host of metaphoric associations; merely lifting it will let you create something pretty, but ultimately meaningless).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Hacienda
  126. @Dmitry

    Hard to imagine white people existing before democracy in your vision. Makes sense, because as First Millennium Revisionist teaches us, Rome was only a fabrication made by medieval historians who actually lived in a bourgeoisie democracy under President Ludwig II.

    Libre and equalite for all, demonstrated by Bonparte through us via his excellent crowd negotiation skills.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Kent Nationalist
  127. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I probably didn’t hear enough – but generally Kpop songs don’t have customary specific features or mannerisms, that distinguishes them from American and European pop songs.

    On the other hand, American, Japanese, Latin pop, and to some extent 1990s-2000 Russian pop, all have quite some strong national mannerisms.

    Your ears can distinguish a lot of Japanese pop, because they seem to hire more people who studied music theory to write it. So your ears can be surprised to often hear complicated and sophisticated voicings and harmony.

    I wonder if this is brought over into their pop music, from anime soundtrack?. So, Joe Hisaishi is doing a lot of modernist harmonic techniques in his Studio Ghibli soundtracks. Tens of millions of people in Japan watch these films, and their ears are acclimatized to taste for more complex harmonies – this then results in demand for more complex harmonic methods in their pop music?


    Some of the things like “stacking 4ths” now seem almost characteristically Japanese in our mind, because of the anime soundtracks.

  128. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Nobody has a “vision” that most people in white populations don’t have highly developed skills of conformism – as we saw in 2015, with the phenomena of adding a French flag to their Facebook profile. Even when I look at Facebook of people I know in the West, you can see a high proportion from all different nationalities, have such a French flag picture dating to 2015.

    The co-ordination is impressive, if you can ignore the sense of entering an uncanny valley – as people’s voluntary social media behaviour becomes not more unpredictable than bots.

    But if you didn’t add a French flag to your Facebook profile, then this can be likely an indication that you are “target audience” who may experience “problems”, in those political systems that require “tighter tolerances”.

    It’s amusing, but predictable, that nonconformists in the West, might be the ones currently idealizing higher state capacity in those societies which are more closely assembled. But at the same time, these are the people who would be least suitable to survive in those societies. While the masses of people who add French flags to their Facebook, are the kind of personalities who will be living fine in the more strict society.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
  129. @Daniel Chieh

    It is not really democracy which is at issue but the republican idea of participation in government, which is totally absent from Oriental political philosophy (even though this is often more anti-authoritarian than its Western equivalent)

  130. Hacienda says:
    @songbird

    It is kind of interesting to compare the choreography of K-pop (highly elaborate) to the mass games of NK.

    Synching is a big deal in NE Asian countries.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  131. @Blinky Bill

    The hull form for these “newer” N. Korean subs are still backward by international standards. They are also undoubtedly very noisy by modern standards and would never venture very far from shore.

    That does not mean that they cannot be dangerous in littoral areas waters or that such a sub with a SRBM is not a threat. it just means that they are old technology and would have a very short life span once they launched and revealed their position in any conflict.

  132. 128 says:

    last pic looks photoshopped

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @Blinky Bill
  133. @128

    It probably is. Many of the Best Korean weapons tests are!

  134. 128 says:

    You would likely need a social media account to get a job, not having any sort of social media presence would raise a lot of red flags to any employer, even in Silicon Valley, social social messaging apps like viber, wechat, or fb messenger are free as long as your have internet connection. and are a lot more convenient to use compared to texting somebody on your cellphone.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  135. @128

    I really hate the memory hog that is fb messenger. There needs to be Trillian for mobile messaging on such platforms.

  136. @Hacienda

    Everyone seen this!

  137. @Hartnell

    The basic building block of a civilization is not an individual but a family once this essential structure starts disintegrating its only a matter of time before everything else collapses.

    Baghdad before the Mongols sacked it had a divorce rate of over 40% an absurd number for a pre industrial society.

    The destruction of the conventional family structure and its replacement with extreme individualism in any civilization is not a sign of progress but a sign of impending collapse.

  138. @Dmitry

    You have a tendency(noticeable over years, so imo a personality trait) to make certain wide assumptions of group behavior that apply evenly to everything. The same people who might conform to religious fanaticism will not conform to widespread sexual orgies; for such individuals, they may agitate for change with the idea that a new setup will benefit them and their mores.

    Haidt’s work on morality is applicable here, as is Taleb’s considerations of intolerant minorities.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  139. mal says:
    @Seph

    Not exactly. True, reusing Falcon 9s as is done currently is a money losing proposition given recently offered pricing ($62M/22.8 tons to LEO = $2,700/kg for new Falcon, $50M/15.6 tons to LEO = $3,200 for used Falcon) – SpaceX customers lose $500/kg by going with used Falcons.

    But even for Heavy already, math changes – with $150M new and $90M used and 63.8 and 43.7 ton to LEO respectively, new Falcon Heavy costs $2350/kg and used Heavy costs $2,060/kg – almost $300/kg savings.

    For comparison on the Russian side, to LEO, fully rigged Proton will be $40M/23.7 = $1,690/kg and for prospective Angara 5V the most charitable i can do is $60M/35 tons = $1,714/kg in mass production. (Russian prices). Initial batches of Angara will be closer to $3,000/kg.

    Basically, SpaceX is encroaching on Russian cost levels already. But Starship is a game changer – its made from cheap rolled steel with unified mass produced engines and electronics you can buy on Ebay. Its basically a flying grain silo, which is an epic achievement when it happens.

    It should be so cheap it wouldn’t even matter if half of them blow up on takeoff. Initial batches shouldn’t cost more than $50M/100 tons and once production gets going $2M/100 tons per Musk aspiration is not unreasonable – its just a flying steel silo, there’s nothing expensive there once the engines are mass produced.

    Those tungsten Rods of God weigh 8.3 tons delivering 11.5 tons TNT equivalent to 30 cm target cross section. That is going to hurt bad.

    Each Starship will carry 10 of those rods, deployable to anywhere on the planet within 15 minutes max.

    Assuming $50M/Starship initial pricing, you are looking at $362,000 per ton TNT delivered anywhere on the planet in 15 minutes.

    Assuming $2M/Starship launch, it reduces to $14,500 per ton TNT. Not even Al Qaeda can deliver this cheap, or in such volume. Orbital bombardment will become a must have capability in the near future.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  140. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s amusing, but predictable, that nonconformists in the West, might be the ones currently idealizing higher state capacity in those societies which are more closely assembled. But at the same time, these are the people who would be least suitable to survive in those societies. While the masses of people who add French flags to their Facebook, are the kind of personalities who will be living fine in the more strict society.

    Very interesting observation, and broadly true. People who don’t conform to the orthodoxy currently prevailing in the West, are likely to not conform to at least some aspects of any system they find themselves in, especially tight authoritarian ones. Whereas the extreme conformists in the West will probably not mind conforming to any system.

    Daniel Chieh suggests there is a third possibility, that some systems just suit some people better. While true, that doesn’t invalidate your scheme. No system will suit someone completely, there will always be parts of it that one dislikes. So its easy too see that nonconformists will probably get into trouble, eventually, in almost any system. And high conformists will do well anywhere.

    But Chieh is right that some systems, overall, suit some people better, who may tolerate the things they dislike.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  141. @Blinky Bill

    The beat on the first video reminds me of the Hell March.

    Meanwhile in America

  142. Hacienda says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I try to stay in my lane when judging music. For example, you can pick up ranchero on L.A. radio. It doesn’t appeal me and I recognize it would a lot of acculturation for me to get to like it. Same with jazz. It’s not something I’ve been able to like.

    I used to screw around with music-making software. And was surprised to find how easy it was to create listenable and even enjoyable tunes. As long as there was repeating, steady group of notes, the ear just accepted it as long as the note itself was clear and had a smooth wave pattern.

    In a way, music as a creative art form is a lot like cooking. Don’t burn things, don’t overdue any ingredient. Use some salt if needed. Later, expand the palate with oregano, thyme, oils, etc.

    OTOH, no one should underestimate the importance of variety in music, just like you need variety of foods. So when I say any music is “soulless”, I’m saying you can at any time say this particular food is tasteless. I’ve had too much of it. Or, it’s not of my class, or language, it doesn’t reflect my life. There’s nothing meta-musical about classical music or jazz or rock’n’roll. They occupy part of the map or geography of music.
    Classical music has some natural advantages- it’s terrific note making machines for one, and it’s enormous school system that produces it’s note makers. An agreed up tonal system.

    But, here’s the foundation of music:

    Silence. Sweet silence with occasional sounds that your mind organizes into some structure.

  143. I try to stay in my lane when judging music. For example, you can pick up ranchero on L.A. radio.

    You’re not doing the internet right.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
  144. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The content of what people conform to, is not what I am referring to, and it’s the least important part by definition – as the trait we are talking about is based on being unbound by personal beliefs or interests, and rather bound by your willingness to synchronize to others and obey (it’s one of our personality traits, which is quite analogous to “domestication”).

    People who changed their Facebook profile to a France flag in 2015, of course were showing to each other that they such prosocial personality traits, even without any penalties for them not doing it.

    People with such a domesticated personality, were the kind of people least likely to cause political problems in Soviet times, where there was “tighter tolerance” for citizens to make outward display of being “in sync”.

    More politically dangerous people in such a society, can be those who behave on some moral or principled belief in Marxism–Leninism, as their behaviour might be inflexibly determined by the content of what they conform to, rather than the more stable and easy to manage traits of obedience and conformity, lack of resistance to peer pressure, etc.

    Korean dancing, like Korean mask wearing; (and changing your Facebook picture to France in 2015), is aimed at showing in Korean society that you are such prosocial, easily synchonizing and harmonious, and its ideological content is irrelevant by definition – because the important thing that Korean society is signaling, is the person’s obedience for programming for different content.

    Such dancing a display of the Korean citizens; willingless to be precisely trained and synchonized – movements chosen by choreographer can seem quite arbitrary.

  145. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    K-pop seems to be run on a mill system, where young people are exploited – put through extensive training and time commitments, for years, with few success stories, and little regard for the failures. When they graduate to “success”, they are often paid very little – having signed lengthy contracts which are designed to recoup the costs of training.

    I don’t know whether it is true, but it’s my theory that Japan was too economically advanced to consider adopting such an exploitative system (at least for its kids), at the time these export markets opened up.

    In some ways, I think it is analogous to their school system. It is also a mill system, designed around quantity. Probably, it would go a long way to solving their social problems (such as low TFR), if they ditched it and instead sought quick ways of finding talent.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  146. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    Well Daniel is already showing suspicious, if not dangerous, signs of individuality and nonconformity – no Facebook.

    It’s amusing, but predictable, that nonconformists in the West, might be the ones currently idealizing higher state capacity in those societies which are more closely assembled. But at the same time, these are the people who would be least suitable to survive in those societies. While the masses of people who add French flags to their Facebook, are the kind of personalities who will be living fine in the more strict society.

    Very interesting observation, and broadly true.

    To return to this comment.

    People typically want to believe that good things are compatible with each other. So you admire high state capacity, and you admire nonconformism, etc. Unfortunately, these things are both good things, and also usually throughout history “trading off” between each other in your society.

    Believing that the things you admire must be compatible with each other (rather than trading off between each other), is a standard confusion people have, – although in politics rulers usually have a more cynical knowledge of the incompatibilities of their ideals, than those they rule – and it’s the kind of assumption that resulted in many absurdities in communist thought (or e.g. in the post revolutionary debates in France).

    On an international level, though, we are at least able to enjoy both of them – the coronavirus epidemic is an example we were could compare some of the cultural extremes.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AaronB
    , @AaronB
  147. @songbird

    I don’t know whether it is true, but it’s my theory that Japan was too economically advanced to consider adopting such an exploitative system (at least for its kids), at the time these export markets opened up.

    No, the Japanese idol system is very similar and the general idea of milling people young into a kind of idealized state of being is fairly East Asian overall. As Spandrell noted, its not actually a culture that believes in HBD so instead everything is assumed to be through beating people into shape.

    • Replies: @songbird
  148. @Dmitry

    Your belief that all “good things” require compromise such as more capital goods requiring greater slavery is a sign of dangerous ideological conformity to present bias without considering external possibilities such as mechanical power or brain chipping the workforce.

    But then again, you have Facebook.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  149. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Kind of surprising that China allows these free-to-play games, considering their initial resistance to video game consoles, and the way they crack down on drugs.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  150. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Good observation. You’re on a roll today.

    Yes, organized state capacity is not compatible with nonconformity, without compromise. They are obvious opposites. If you select for one trait, you have to accept less of the other.

    We see also the believers in IQ try and make it correlate with everything positive, despite contradiction. And yes, this is a common cognitive error.

    As Freud pointed out, civilization is in conflict with freedom. Maximize one, you will lose the other. That is why I firmly believe we need balance in all things in life , and most ancient civilizations agreed.

    Philosopher John Gray – you’d like him if you havent read him – discusses how human goods are incompatible (safety and freedom), and he says Isiaha Berlin had this as a huge theme of his.

  151. @songbird

    So far miohiyo remains independent; assuming that the Ministry of Culture begins to mess with them, I highly suspect that it’ll destroy their cultural output. The touch of large conglomerates and the CCP is the touch of death to creativity afaik.

  152. Sean says:

    China is betting that helping the US with North Korea will make it possible for them to keep on economically raping the US. Trump has scared the Chinese, that is why they are giving Kim assistance US military and diplomatic establishment apparently agree it is a hilariously ridiculous idea that China is manipulating them by boosting the North Korean nuke missile threat . Fingleton’s has mentioned (it is a fact) that Japan uses the threat from north Korea to continue getting into the US’s pants. Why would China not do it?

    That North Korean threat has suddenly went from a copied obsolete Magnox reactor and mongo low yield little Hiroshima type weapon that wouldn’t even been deliverable with on NK’s 70’s Soviet battlefield missiles of several years ago, to threatening the MAINLAND US with a tight fitting H bomb going almost into orbit as it crosses the Pacific ocean on a ICBM.To doubt this is to believe Chinese are not capable of such subtlety as to help along a situation they benefit from, and if the Korean war showed anything it was that US diplomatic and intelligence analysis of China is so trenchant that China would not dare try any funny business because the US would soon work out what was going on.

    I mean how would China manage to get the requisite materiel and personnel into North Korea considering the vast distances , language problem and lack of any shared basis for an alliance between a democracy like China and a communist dictatorship like N. Korea. Anyway, and as the Korean war also showed, the US can see what crosses from China. Seriously think North Korea is suddenly an ICBM and nuke capabilities power because Kim is a Chinese cat’s paw against Trump’s sanctions.

    Lets say a few years from now that North Korea launched an all out strike on 20 American cities. Does anyone really think America would only hit North Korea with nuclear retaliation? No, the US would hit China as well as north Korea with nukes in retaliation. The Chinese are taking a risk with Kim, and would close down Kim in a trice if they did not find his nuclear threat to the US a useful tool for keeping America lying back and thinking of military rather than economic strategy as it gets industrially Sacculinised.

    Historically Korean diplomacy is very subtle and they have successfully played off larger y powers against on another. As Mearsheimer said in The Tragedy of Great Power Politics of the Japanese and Russia competition ” Korean policymakers skillfully played the two great powers off against each other so as to avoid being devoured by either side”. This led to the Russo Japanese war and Russian 1905 revolution that knocked Russia out of the balance of power and WW1 (and 2 in my opinion)

    North Korea is hardly a puppet of China, although the Chinese do regard them as a vassal state. But while the historical over-lordship by itself is not a compelling reason for thinking Korea is acting as a Chinese proxy, the recent warp speed progress of N.Korean progress on separate lines of advanced technology, and begining almost instantly after Trump got elected is very telling. It is so rapid that there is little likelihood China was trying to reign them in. The probability is NK’s recent results are the fruits of some actual help from China, which has been long known to have given missile parts to Pakistan. This year India intercepted a ship with ‘industrial driers’ that turned out to be autoclaves, and more recently Chinese Army helping Pakistan to install surface-to-air missiles in its part of Kashmir.

    So long as these trends don’t cardinally change, and the North’s political system remains unchanged – indeed, with society “frozen” in its pre-SJW driven dissolution state – the North may regain a window to militarily resolve the reunification issue that it came close to achieving in the 1980s, but seemingly permanently lost in the 1990s.

    The calculation would have to be that China would forbid North Korea, but Kim could get out his box, North Korea would need a park of ICBM’s for a total standoff to prevent the US using any battlefield nukes to stop a conventional NK invasion of the South. I think it is pretty clear that the North would fight well. The fighting power of the WEIRDed South Koreans in full on war seems questionable, especially if it is in a generation and they are a mixed race society. Who would be willing to die for that?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  153. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Its probably a “rationalist” fallacy – the idea that life isnt messy, but fits nicely into a tidy logical scheme. People who overvalue reason are prone to this error.

  154. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Seems as though K-pop took inspiration from the Japanese idol system.

    But what I mean is that the scale seems to be a lot different, on a per capita level. Like, Japanese parents would be more likely to reject that level of exploitation, not businessmen and not necessarily the government.

    I think there’s a bit of an analogy that could be made by comparing old HK cinema to Japanese stuff. Much of HK’s popularity was built on the acrobatics of people who were basically sold as kids by their parents into performance troops and beaten until they could do full splits. Japan never had a Jackie Chan.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  155. @Agathoklis

    I think this is a relatively recent phenomena though, not that long ago listening to foreign language music and watching foreign language films would have been considered a niche and frankly eccentric interest in the Anglosphere, but now it’s verging on being normal and mainstream if not already completely so.

    In regards to foreign language films, I think Netflix, etc, has played a big role in normalising those as mainstream entertainment in the Anglosphere. It also probably reflects the fact that Anglo cultural hegemony is gradually fading while various other cultures are growing in prominence.

  156. I’m not familiar enough to judge exactly beyond the obvious – Japanese music and to an extent even their pop, tends to be more interesting than the Korean, although this does not translate into commercial success. And ultimately, pop is all kinda pop, so its not really like there’s a lot to be said about the artistic qualities of Perfume‘s Laser Beam versus Girl’s Day Expect.

    Its all pretty pop. I guess the only thing that can be said and is fairly consistently true, Japanese work tends to be more willing to be silly and ridiculous, while Korean work is very focused on a kind of technical excellence.

    Insofar as that willingness to be eccentric and a certain philosophy around that, I think that might be why that Japan seems to more consistently produce named composers with clear “personal styles” like Hiroyuki Sawano and from that, evolve into something akin to a national style thanks to imitation. And there’s definitely a lot more “individualism”, at least in the sense of individual showmanship that’s on display.

    It can couple well with eccentricity.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @mal
  157. @Daniel Chieh

    The accursed 3-post per hour limit also broke the appropriate reply to Dmi upon repost.

    Ree.

  158. @Sean

    if the Korean war showed anything it was that US diplomatic and intelligence analysis of China is so trenchant that China would not dare try any funny business because the US would soon work out what was going on.

    Sometimes I’m not sure the US intelligence is able to work out who they’re supposed to fight against.

    “Thank you, as well, to the great intelligence professionals who helped make this very successful journey possible,” he said in an address from the White House on Sunday.

    His intelligence officials are ”spectacular,” “great patriots,” the president went on.

    But then, this: “And it’s really a deserving name, intelligence. I have dealt with some people that aren’t very intelligent, having to do with intel.”

    https://www.npr.org/2019/10/29/773127809/how-the-relationship-between-trump-and-his-spy-chiefs-soured

  159. Svevlad says:

    All the bigger argument for eugenics for the intellectually challenged areas

  160. songbird says:

    I wonder how possible it would be for the Norks to mount a Vostok or Mercury-style project to get a man in space. Project Mercury cost like $2.25 billion in 2019 dollars, so not super expensive (and it would probably be cheaper now). Surely, it would be a propaganda coup.

    India’s schedule is Dec 2021. Wouldn’t it be something if the Norks did a rush program to beat them? (Perhaps with an assist from China.)

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
  161. @Coconuts

    So tell us why Sweden began to accept refugees if not for NATO solidarity… Which of the usual suspects will you blame? Jews – Blacks or Chinese?

    • Replies: @Coconuts
  162. @Hojer

    Well if you are correct then “Europa Europa” saying others are trying to force Europeans to take them in is patently false – as I was trying to explain to him. I don’t think anyone has a problem with Europe being for whites. As long as Europe doesn’t destabilize other countries. They are reaping the seeds they sowed.

  163. mal says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    K-pop is too mellow, though i did enjoy Gangnam style.

    I prefer UK hardcore, which is also blends with Japanese anime fetish surprisingly well.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  164. @Agathoklis

    Interesting ideas… In actuality that is exactly what Edrogan in Turkey is trying to accomplish… He seems to want to rebuild the Ottoman Empire.
    But yeah – I don’t think it would be easy to take Iran in a conventional war for “a superpower”… Not impossible – but it wouldn’t be Iraq…. Iran learned what to focus on…

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  165. @showmethereal

    The problem for Erdogan is that apart from Azeris no one really feels any affinity to Turkish culture in the way it manifests itself in Turkey. He has tried to make overtures to Muslims in the Balkans but they are either nominal Sunnis or Bektashis. And they definitely do not speak the same language. Generally, they are not interested. Some Libyans have been receptive but that is only because there is a civil war going on and they need a sponsor; but again, culturally, they are North African Arab. There are scattered groups of Turcoman in Syria and Iraq but around half a Arabised linguistically. Within Turkey, they have significant ethnic and religious minorities, namely, Kurds and Alevis. Given the chance, most Kurds are unlikely to be loyal as they are an Irani groups which have mostly maintained their linguistic differentiation. The Alevis are a more difficult case. If Erdogan was toppled and a more secular regime took his place, then I would expect them to have more buy in.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  166. Smith says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    There’s everything wrong with it, if it’s boring shit like cultivation where every story is about some dude who mediates for 100 years to become some celestian who shoots lazy beam. It’s like the recent isekai trend in Japan except going on for more than two decades and still going.

    Also, I can’t support Gacha Impact, it combines too many cancerous business practices (always online DRM, anticheat system for a Single player game, gacha/lootboxes mechanics, P2w), it seems like an attempt to normalize MMO and phone gacha insanity into single player experience.

    And all of Asia is playing this game (or at least that’s all the mainstream journos and twatters are saying), this sets a bad precedence and this will end up exploiting us in the future.

    I do not hate all chinese games of course, there’s stuff like Xuan-Yang Sword VII which seems interesting because it continues the trend of wuxia games with some historical stories that China has been making a long time. I just wish we get far and away from this gacha F2P P2W MMO hell that plagues China, Korea, SEA and now increasingly plaguing Japan. We need the European-Japan model of DRM-free, SP-focus game on PC (or consoles).

    The people above me say Asians are supposed to be about cooperation and such, but the actual truth is Asian society is VERY, VERY competitive for good and bad, this has grown evidence as the Esports industry start to grow massively Asia, where gaming is treated as a sport, and all the young kids are guided into playing one or two specific games in hope that some days they can become a champion MMO/Dota whatever. This started in Korea btw, Korea does not make many games, but they make so much money on making people watching other people playing video gamesand now China is catching up to this.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  167. yeah, i think it’s obvious the US military will use Starship as an Orbital Bomber, as i’ve posted in a few other threads.

    this changes things significantly. especially if they can stay in orbit for a while before having to come back down to land and refuel and rearm. then the military could have several of them in orbit at all times, always aiming at you. just like their nuclear bomber mission in the 60s where they had bombers continuously flying the US borders.

    armed with smart weapons, MIRVs, kinetic energy penetrators, or hypersonic missiles, they could hit surface targets with 10 minutes notice. a lot of the time they could hit you before you had a chance to even see them coming.

    makes ICBMs less relevant. not irrelevant, but suddenly, now the US really can hit some ICBMs before they launch. makes neocon ideas about ‘winning’ a “First Strike” more into the realm of reality. could make ballistic submarines less relevant, if satellites and Orbital Bombers can detect them in the water and hit them from altitude.

    considering Orbital Bomber will be cheap compared to the defense budget, it’s possible to have a fleet of dozens of these things in continuous operation. with the limitation that they don’t launch automatically, like military aircraft. bad weather means they can’t launch. so they’ll get around that by building 2 or 3 bases, in Florida, California, and Texas. and launch sorties that way.

    • Replies: @128
  168. 128 says:
    @prime noticer

    Aren’t SSBNs undetectable by satellites right up until the moment they start launching, so they only need a few minutes of a launch window? Even with orbital bombardment you cannot react that fast.

  169. 128 says:

    Apparently all of the missiles in SSBNs can be launched in less than a minute?

  170. @Rahan

    “Everyone’s army is 90% tech from that time, including the US”

    i’d say more like 70% the same.

    1) US military is good at continuous incremental improvement of the systems in all their equipment. comparing their systems from 1991 is like saying in 2020 we still drive cars, trucks, and vans, just like we did in the 90s, so not much changed in automobiles in 30 years. but as everybody kn0ws, the cars and trucks today are a lot better now.

    about the same for US military equipment. most of that stuff is all 25% to 50% better now. people don’t think much about stuff like radar, or vehicle armor, but that stuff’s better now too. the ammunition for machine guns and cannons is like 20% better now – new 120mm APFSDS round just rolled out. body armor is so much better the Army is running a machine gun and rifle program to counteract that. helicopter turboshafts upgraded. jet engine turbofans upgraded. abrams turbo

    2) new stuff that wasn’t around during Desert Storm. drones, F-22s, Virginia class subs, new APC, JTLV to replace hummer, Osprey, Paladin, Javelin, night vision 4. new missiles and bombs. ground vehicle armor is so much better that IEDs have mostly been defeated and MRAP is already obsolete. body armor can stop medium caliber rifle rounds, helmets can sometimes deflect light caliber rifle rounds. heavyweight version of Mk 48 mod 7 torpedo is better than previous torpedos. CIWS phalanx is no longer pneumatic and has been replaced with a fully electornic system.

    stuff on the immediate horizon: remote turrets, 30mm gun to replace M2 on light vehicles, 50mm gun for AFV, 130mm gun for tank, new helicopters to replace Blackhawk, Apache, and Chinook. 70 mile range artillery. TNT being replaced in shells and bombs with more stable explosive. CN-20 explosive to go beyond HMX. M5 electric tank. full size drone fighter aircraft as sidekicks and decoys.

    stuff not ready for primetime: Ford class carriers, railguns, hypersonic missiles, caseless ammunition, F-35 perhaps. Bradley replacement. autonomous ground vehicles. new grenade. Army camouflage pattern

    • Thanks: Rahan
  171. 128 says:

    Well if most of your ICBM is land based, won’t that just raise the incentive for a first strike in a preventive manner before your deterrence gets lost?

  172. @Smith

    We need the European-Japan model of DRM-free, SP-focus game on PC (or consoles).

    Its either that or the Paradox model of endless DLC, which is increasingly adopted by Japan – thus the Breath of Wild model. I’m not fond of the gatcha model either but one way or another, monetization is going to happen via the Pareto Principle.

    The people above me say Asians are supposed to be about cooperation and such, but the actual truth is Asian society is VERY, VERY competitive for good and bad,

    Mostly separate topic but Koreans pretty much wipe the e-sports community. They more or less represent the ideal in cooperation there, not to mention very solid sponsorship from Samsung.

    Unfortunately or otherwise, I doubt anyone else can really match up to them, even as Asia goes. Sponsoring entire teams of gamers complete with sister teams and partially duplicating that kind of idol mill is a lot of money.

    Its been awhile since I looked into it but iirc Tencent etc never has invested in it like Samsung, and nothing like that in Japan.

    This started in Korea btw, Korea does not make many games,

    Koreans did, see Nexon and especially MapleStory, but they have not done well via competition in the last decade or so.

    My experience is that Korea lacks the doujin circle/hobbyist circles of Japan and much less indie creativity. There’s government aid for it but its not yet panned out much(imo affected by “soullessness”).

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Smith
  173. Yevardian says:
    @Agathoklis

    Iran doesn’t have any real problems with its minority groups with the (significant) exception of Baluchis and Kurds. Even during the Iran-Iraq War, Khuzestan’s Arabs overwhelmingly remained loyal to Iran.
    Dari (the Hazaragi dialect is a bit harder, but still understandable) and Farsi are fully intelligible (Farsi is generally much more ‘slangy’ and concise), the difference between them is less than that between Azeri and Turkish proper. Tajik is bit more distant (more due to archaisms, most of the Russian loans are actually international words) but a Farsi speaker will still understand at least 90%.
    Cultural solidarity? Well there is a huge Afghan diaspora in Iran (comparable in size to the recent influx of Arabs into Turkey, perhaps the largest proportion of refugees to the host population in the world), though the public’s attitude towards them is something like that of Americans vis-a-vis Mexicans. Tajikistan is barely on the radar.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  174. @Agathoklis

    Turks seem to have bad PR in most countries, it’s odd that Iranian people and culture are far more liked by most Westerners than Turks and Turkish culture, despite the fact that Iran is an “enemy” and Turkey is an “ally”.

    I regularly hear Westerners singing the praises of Iranian/Persian culture, “it’s not the people it’s the government” they say. I almost never hear Westerners saying that about Turks and Turkey.

  175. @Yevardian

    From what I understand the various forms of Kurdish are unintelligible to a Iranian Persian; however, as you say a Persian from Tehran can easily converse with a Dari or Tajik speaker. The relationship between Persians and Dari speakers is interesting. Tajiks in Afghanistan speak Dari but how close are Dari-speaking Hazaras and Aymaqs to Persians and Persian nationalism. The origins of Hazaras are partially Mongol but do they identify with Irani culture ethnically rather than just linguistically.

    And what role does religion play? Sometimes; and increasingly, since the early years of the revolution, the rhetoric from the Iranian regime has taken on a Irani flavour rather than an exclusive form of Shia chauvinism. Is there potential to instrumentalise this tactically to garner support from non-Shia Persian speakers beyond their borders but does that risk alienating some of the non-Persian Iranian Shia ethnic groups.

  176. @Agathoklis

    Language doesn’t mean a lot in terms of nationalism, people don’t identify as English or with English culture just because they speak English natively. I’d say language is in general the most superficial factor in identity of all.

    • Troll: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  177. @Agathoklis

    I was wrong about the Greek dialects, but I am quite sure that there is three or more Kurdish languages that are not mutually intelligible. I don’t know if Zaza is its own language, separate from the Kurdish. But Kurmanji is the biggest Kurdish language and at least half of the Kurds speak it.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  178. @Europe Europa

    I believe language, which facilitates culture, in combination with other factors like shared ancestry are the most powerful factors. We are both writing in English but our ancestries differ; and hence, resulting in different ethnicities. Generally, language begets ethnicity. Religion is not an important factor. Even for explicitly universalist creeds like Islam, despite the best efforts of Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia Muslims do not identify with Gulf Arabs.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  179. @Kent Nationalist

    Turks also seem to make no attempt to distance themselves from their country’s past atrocities, like say modern day Germans do. In my experience their typical attitude to the Armenian genocide is flippant and almost proud of it.

  180. @Agathoklis

    Most white Australians are ethnically British and obviously speak English natively, yet it seems to me that most Australians don’t see themselves as anything to do with England, other than England being the old colonial master, and internationally most see English people and Australians as completely separate nationalities and cultures.

    Australians are just seen as Australians, a nationality and culture in their own right. I don’t think anyone these days thinks “antipodean English people” when they think of Australia.

    • Disagree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  181. @AltanBakshi

    I cannot recall what you stated about Greek dialects; but today; the only dialects are Tsakonian, Griko and Romaika (Mariupol). The rest are simply idioms. There a very few Tsakonian speakers.

    From what I understand, and it is unfortunate for Kurdish national aspirations, the two main Kurdish languages, Sorani and Kurmanji are not mutually intelligible and even use different scripts. Zaza and Gorani are not considered Kurdish languages but are within the Iranian family. Even within these groups there are dialects like Shabaki of the Shabaks. There sure is a lot of religious plurality among the Kurds.

  182. That said, maybe the English language is not the best example of language reflecting ethnicity and culture because it has basically turned into a sort of Esperanto and become totally detached from its origin as the language of the native English people.

    Frankly I’d be surprised if many people even consciously associate the English language with England any more, in the way French is associated with France and Russian is with Russia. English seems to be associated first and foremost with the USA, which is a melting pot in itself, and also like I said as the global “Esperanto” lingua franca.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  183. @Europe Europa

    Australians and culture in the same sentence is a very problematic concept.

  184. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I think the size of Japan’s population in comparison to SK makes it seem more creative.

    There may be some non-linear, network effect, with increasing pop size. But, to start off, Japan has niche markets that are possible on its scale, but less possible on Korea’s. Sure, they can export, but that entails more risk and so less creativity.

    I suppose Japan is looking at a future of this putative lack of creativity, if its pop continues to collapse. Of course, older people are less creative too, and probably less likely to buy creative things.

  185. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Your belief that all “good things” require compromise

    Nowhere is it written in my text “all good things require compromise”. Either you need to read more carefully, or I need to add more paragraphs so peoples’ eyes don’t wander, and my readers don’t start to project onto my text from their own imagination.

    Also note the logic: saying “not(all good things are compatible)”, is a completely different and less strong claim, than the implausible “all good things are not compatible”.

    For example, if we look at Robespierre’s “Liberty, equality, fraternity”. Equality and fraternity are usually possible to pursue at the same time in politics (good things can be very compatible), but liberty and equality as the values have been understood since that time – they are usually trading off in various ways.

    require compromise such as more capital goods requiring greater slavery is a sign of dangerous

    Nowhere did I say anything about “capital goods” and “slavery”.

    As my text says – “states’ capacity” and tolerance for “nonconformism”, are usually trading off.

    to present bias without considering external possibilities such as mechanical power or brain chipping the workforce.

    The present (although not only present – it was already in Socrates) bias is to assume that good things are compatible with each other, bad things are compatible with each other, and good and bad things are incompatible with each other.

    Here we have the tendency which has likely been encouraged and enhanced by industrialized life. You can eat meat, but you don’t need to kill an animal and see the blood on your hands. You can drink sweet liquids, but you don’t need to worry about calories – there is Diet Coke. Modern life has a tendency to reduce our experience of sacrificing one thing for another.

    If you say to people in politics, that good things are compatible with bad things, good things are incompatible with some good things, and that some bad things are incompatible with other bad things – there is nothing that modern citizens will less want to hear.

    Successful rulers will usually understand this intuitively, but it requires a complicated rhetorical operation to present to public: i.e. Soviet rhetoric about liberty, which derives from a very elaborate Marxist re-writing of liberty. In the end, we are presented with the idea that individual liberty can only exist in the mature communist society, with no conditions for “false choices” of false consciousness. So that there is at no times anything like “sacrifice of liberty” involved in the benefits of the Soviet life, as there was no pre-communist liberty to be sacrificed.

    • Agree: Gerard-Mandela
  186. @Agathoklis

    Cricket… Both of their forms of football… And…??? Seem like Brits near the equator on a permanent holiday.

  187. @Europe Europa

    Many people use English to communicate but many do not have shared ancestry or develop similar cultural traits. A Iraqi Yezidi might live in the US and speak very good English but it is unlikely he will devour Shakespeare or Dickens or wistfully think about the flag of St George. The English ethnos as a distinct thing is rapidly disappearing. It is interesting how scholars try to reconstruct Gothic identity on the few sources we have (i.e. Jordanes) – the identity of the Avars or Cumans is even more difficult. In 100 years, they will be faced with similar problems in trying to understand what was the English ethnos.

  188. Coconuts says:
    @showmethereal

    So tell us why Sweden began to accept refugees if not for NATO solidarity… Which of the usual suspects will you blame? Jews – Blacks or Chinese?

    PC or Social Justice ideology. I expect many will know this, but it is not connected with NATO.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  189. @Hartnell

    There are essentially 3 types of life now.

    1. where individual & collective forces are somehow in harmony, or at least go hand in hand. Among big ones- Russia, China, Japan; among smaller- Israel, but also Hungary etc.

    2. where collective forces prevail- Africa plus Islam, with Iran perhaps Islamic exception. No future because they’re destined to remain dub or desperate. This is perhaps the case with high IQ N Korea. It has to change to accommodate individualism

    3. where individualism rules- wealthy Europe & Anglosphere. Judge for yourself.

    The US is a crumbling mosaic, so impossible to characterize, while Latin America is a mess, with not yet fully individualized countries.

    In my opinion, only those countries that are simultaneously nationalist & individualist have a future in next 20-40 years.

  190. mal says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thanks! Now that’s a fun track.

  191. Yevardian says:
    @Europe Europa

    The answer is probably simply that many European countries have had a long and bloody history with Turkey, whilst the last time Iran impacted upon Europe directly was in Achaemenid times, although even then, the Ancient Greeks invariably spoke extremely highly of the Persians.

  192. Smith says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The DLC model is less worse than gacha by a mile, DLC you pay and you get, it’s nickel and dime but you get what you pay for.

    Gacha, you wait a chance to roll and get random shit, or pay and get a chance to roll random shit. It’s purely gambling. The europeans fought against this but this takes root in Japan and quickly spreads over China and Korea and take hold there, now it’s seriously affecting the console market in Japan and even the PC market in China.

    Also, if you pay attention to Esports, you would know that most of the audience now are chinese, and chinese teams are beating even korean teams in tourney. It’s all about conquering the market and making huge money over this spectator sport. This is not cooperation anyway, it’s purely competition and money, you have coaches training these kids to play games at high speed, it’s ridiculous and this “industry” has incredible turn-over rate.

    Asian pop culture has a lot of good, and it lacks the diversity crap of the West, but it’s also heading in a dark direction with all the greed and monetization, and we asians must take a stand somewhere.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  193. @Europe Europa

    Turkey, and the previous Ottoman culture, never produced any cultural products worth caring about. And when they did, they were clearly grounded in Persian, Arabic or Hellenic culture. Essentially, they were a nomadic steppe people that came into contact with settled civilised cultures. Invariably, they just copied what they found.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  194. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Europe Europa

    It’s sad because this country used to be basically a powerhouse of pop culture

    To a large extent British pop culture was just an imitation of American pop culture. It was the Americanisation of Britain that destroyed British culture.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @EldnahYm
  195. @Agathoklis

    Something different for everyone.

    Gurrumul Yunupingu

    Mandawuy Yunupingu

    Rrurrambu Burarrwanga

    [MORE]

    ἔθνος

    Yolngu

  196. @Agathoklis

    they were a nomadic steppe people that came into contact with settled civilised cultures. Invariably, they just copied what they found.

    They were Persianized Turks, their genetics and culture was more Persian than Turkic, when they arrived Anatolia, and they were not people of steppes. Actually they were a semi-pastoral people of highlands and mountain valleys.

    Actually that Turko-Persian cultural fusion had a very rich Sufi spirituality, with numerous lodges and brotherhoods. Even most Ottoman sultans themselves were members of some Sufi lodges. Rumi himself was definitely product of that cultural fusion, one also should not forget the rich poetry that also was produced. But Kemal Ataturk denied that past of the Anatolia and cut their roots, and now modern Anatolians so are an artificial people and have non-organic identity. Not long ago I read couple books about Sufi spirituality and to my wonder it was and is very Neo-Platonic, especially the texts of Ibn Arabi. All is emanation from the most high, not just external reality, but internal too. Or so do they believe, or that everything rests in the absolute.

    And when they did, they were clearly grounded in Persian, Arabic or Hellenic culture

    But this is natural for most of the people in the history, even the early Romans were grounded in Hellenic and especially in Etruscan culture, same with the Japanese and Koreans, how faithfully they copied the culture of China. Same happened with the young German kingdoms which faithfully copied Christianized Roman culture. Unoriginality of a culture is a bad argument. All civilizations copied culture in their youth. The culture of the Hellenes is so ancient that we can’t know how much they absorbed from the others, but at least their writing system came from Semitic people of the Middle East, as did some of their gods.

    • Agree: Ano4, showmethereal
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  197. @AltanBakshi

    All peoples absorb something of their neighbors, that is without question. However, the special ones add something to that cultural mix, create something that is fresh and more profound. The Turks added nothing to the Persian-Arab mix at the time in which they arose in history (and then later absorbed elements of the Helleno-Roman culture). And that is why people generally do not aspire to Turkish culture. The Arabs have the classical Arabic language and Islam. The Persians have poetry, philosophers, gardens and bureaucracy. The Turks have massacres and genocides.

    The Sufi lodges and orders, tekes, dedes, cemevis and devotional poetry is not Turkish. Sufism as a belief system has its roots in the early Islamic period, a time when Turks were still herding livestock in the Altai. Many Sufi rituals and practices are thought to be adoptions of pre-Islamic ones. Also, Rumi wrote almost entirely in Persian and his ancestry was Persian.

    The Turks migrated into a world of old and settled cultures. When the Arabs burst out of what is today Saudi Arabia and into the Levant they adopted many Helleno-Roman practices but they added something to create a distinct culture. The Turks did nothing of the sort.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  198. @dfordoom

    I think the fact Britain shares a language with America makes it harder to resist Americanisation than if your language is non-English, which acts as a sort of barrier to total Americansation to a large extent.

    This phenomena doesn’t just happen in the Anglopshere though, Spanish (as in Spain) and Portuguese pop culture seems to be largely dominated by Latin America, because of the shared language and how many more people speak Spanish and Portuguese there than in Spain and Portugal themselves.

  199. @Agathoklis

    I agree mostly with you, still there are Turks and there are “turks.” I have Tuvinian and Kyrgyz friends and their mentality and culture is as far away from the mentality and culture of the Anatolian “turks” as the mentality of a Frenchman is from the Chinese. No offense meant for anybody. Its very irritating for me that it seems that you think that the ancient Turkic peoples were not people with rich culture, yes peripheric they are, as the ancient Scythians were in relation to Hellenes, but there are many different groups of Turks and the culture of Tuvinian and Kyrgyz is very authentic. It’s not their fault that Anatolians appropriated the name of the Turks and created a false identity for themselves. Its a miracle that they could develop so rich culture in the arid stepped of Central Asia. At least people of Greece and Turkey had very fertile lands and sea, unlike the before mentioned peoples . Actually when I think about, the people of Balkan are also cultural under achievers like the “turks” of the Anatolia. They migrated in “the world of the old and settled cultures” and what new they gave for the world? Just did their very best in beating the Roman empire down and couldn’t even create something new like Germanics with the Carolingian empire and HRM?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @Agathoklis
  200. @AltanBakshi

    Forgot to add that I think that Kyrgyz, Tuvans and some other peoples are the real Turks, not the Anatolians, their claim to Turkhood is less realistic than if the Swedes and Germans would larp as a descendants of the British Empire.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  201. EldnahYm says:
    @dfordoom

    American pop music of the 80s and even partly the 90s was a carbon copy of British synth pop.

    It was the Americanisation of Britain that destroyed British culture.

    You are an even more glib poster than AaronB. Unlike AaronB you seem to manage this with little effort. Impressive.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  202. @AltanBakshi

    Turkey is a strange case of people pretending to be associated with a geographically distant culture that they have ethnically nothing to do with. It seems to me that modern “Turks” are a mixture of native Anatolian, Greek, Kurd, Arab and Slav the ratio of which depending on region, but no actual Turkic ancestry.

    Actually it’s even more strange than the idea of Germans and Swedes pretending to be descendants of the British Empire, as at least Germans and Swedes are Germanic and therefore have a direct genetic and cultural association with the English, the “Turks” don’t even have that with the actual Turkic peoples.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @Agathoklis
  203. @EldnahYm

    I agree with that, a large percentage of the famous 80s and 90s synthpop artists are British. I suspect the confusion comes about because most Americans, being as parochial as they are, probably assume that most British artists they hear are American, and therefore credit British musical culture and innovation to themselves.

  204. @Europe Europa

    Right in the bulls eye!
    Oh you are developing!
    Thank you!

  205. Mitleser says:
    @Vendetta

    Other countries have smaller populations/economies and/or are less isolated than Sudan which makes them much less capable and interested in developing their own military industry.

  206. @AltanBakshi

    I am only referring to Anatolian Turks.

  207. @Europe Europa

    When analysing Turkish DNA, Anatolian Turks are pulled towards East Asia in a PCA analysis when compared to Armenians, Cappadocian Greeks, Asia Minor Greeks and Greek Cypriots. The ratio is lower than what most people expect but it is detectable. Hence, they do retain some central Asian ancestry. Of course, the ratio varies depending on where the samples have been taken i.e. the further west you go, the less central Asian ancestry. It is rare to find a Turk whose phenotype resembles a Kyrgiz but occasionally they do appear.

  208. @Smith

    we asians must take a stand somewhere.

    TIL that I have a racial obligation against capitalism.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @songbird
  209. @Daniel Chieh

    You have a Confucian obligation. Merchants should be under a strict control and regulation of the community. Their capability to practice virtue is limited, compared to other occupations. In this I greatly admire master Kong. Even now CCP follows this ancient ideal by clearly showing the modern class of the entrepreneurs and businessmen, that they are not the masters of the house, unlike in the west, were they are the most powerful class.

    The Sage of the Sakyans, master Lao and master Kong, tasting vinegar, such a nice painting.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Smith
  210. @Agathoklis

    What are you trying to prove? They still are more related to Greeks, Persians and Armenians than they are to the Central Asian Turks. Or if they have a strong enough connection in your opinion and can larp as a descendants of the Attila and Chinggis Khaan, then so can Finns and the Russians of the Northern Russia and Urals, they have as much or more East Eurasian or Siberian admixture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Great_Turkic_Empires

    “16 stars in the Presidential Seal of Turkey represents each empire”

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  211. @AltanBakshi

    After seeing the repeated abortions of creative projects in China fail because of excessive government engagement and seeing how it is a common theme with places that allow a government to mess with artists, you might forgive me if I would much rather let the one place in China so far that appears to be create something interesting on a modern level alone and letting them make money.

    Incidentally modern Japan Inc is heavily dominated by the corporations as well, mingled as it is with the government interests but the flow of power often goes from corporation unto government. And from an artistic level, Japan does far better than China, so perhaps that increased degree of capitalism for innovative sectors isn’t so far. That said, pure and dominant merchantilism tends to lead to constant merger and acquisitions rather than development, so I’ve never been much fond of it(and since I’m descended from a military family, this is only natural).

    Confucianism is interesting and has a purpose in stability, but he saw very little good in innovation or even art. I am a transhumanist and an artist.

  212. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    We all have racial obligations against capitalism – in its extreme form, which is that economic growth in any form is highly desirable, and should always be maximized.

    That idea is why the West is where it is right now.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AnonFromTN
  213. @songbird

    Anything that brings us closer to the Machine God is fine by me.

    Deus Ex Machina Vult.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  214. @Daniel Chieh

    Transhumanism is just a meme, at least considering our current state of technological development. Scientists havent yet created even crudely conscious beings nor have they yet improved human cognition in any way. Do they even have a theoretical basis for such inventions? Scifi doesnt count most science fiction literature is just modernist fantasy tales. Also its one thing to physically improve the human beings capabilities, and another to improve our cognitive abilities. Transhumanism, transfairytaleism, transfantasy. No matter what the beings cognitive abilities, one always has desire or aversion towards external or internal sensations or objects. One cant transcend ones basic state regarding such phenomena by modifying our sensory abilities, the basic problem of being would still remain. The cycle would not be broken. Although His Holiness Dalai Lama believes that conscious machine is possible some day, but that day is still far away in my opinion.

    Very funnily Bauddhayantra means computer in Sanskrit, so lets not speak about Machine God, but let there be a Shri Yantra Buddha, the Blessed Machine Buddha!

    • Replies: @Hacienda
  215. Hacienda says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Transhumanism is just a meme, at least considering our current state of technological development.

    It’s a lot more than a meme. Ever see “Soylent Green”?

  216. @AltanBakshi

    I am simply responding to Europe Europe’s point:

    “Turkey is a strange case of people pretending to be associated with a geographically distant culture that they have ethnically nothing to do with.”

    It would be inaccurate to state Anatolian Turks have nothing to do with central Asian Turks, more like they have little do with them.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  217. @songbird

    As the popular phrase puts it, “if you think that unlimited growth is possible, you are either mad, or an economist”.

    • Agree: songbird
  218. @Hacienda

    But I have another theory that music has become so naturally a part of the human brain that just about any form of music is something people will come to enjoy.

    Good to know that my talentless, entirely inexperienced and planning-to-be-lazy self, still has a hopeful career as an international music megastar…

  219. @Agathoklis

    Remember the Turkic speaking migrants to Anatolia were not 100% East Asian, they brough with them West Eurasian DNA too. Therefore their portion of the Anatolian Turkish gene pool is larger than solely the East Asian portion. Up to 15% of the Anatolian Turkish gene pool is of East Asian origin, suggesting that the total contribution might be as high as 30%, assuming that the migrants were 50% East Asian and 50% West Eurasian.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @Agathoklis
  220. @Rattus Norwegius

    Again this bullshit, as Ano4 mentioned in his old comment, Tuvans, Khakass etc have a most similar genetic composition with the ancient Turks, and they do not reaemble in any way Turks. I know, that people have a strongly ideologically colored desires to prove that Anatolians are somehow connected to “barbaric” Huns and Mongols(although Mongols had a very good relations with the Christian minorities of the Middle East and were protectors of the Armenian Cilicia) of the past. The modern Anatolians are genetically more closely related with the Italians and Jews than they are with the Kyrgyz or the Kazakh, so f*** you!

    The Turkish immigrants to Anatolia were almost completely Persianized Turks, they even came from the area modern day Iran, where their ancestors had lived already for generations.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  221. So long as these trends don’t cardinally change, and the North’s political system remains unchanged – indeed, with society “frozen” in its pre-SJW driven dissolution state – the North may regain a window to militarily resolve the reunification issue that it came close to achieving in the 1980s, but seemingly permanently lost in the 1990s.

    That’d be good. Take over the South and wipe out all the globalists. Line them up and shoot.

  222. @AltanBakshi

    It wouldnt be a surprise if government of Turkey or Turkish researchers would select those genetic samples for their statistics, which would support their Turanist/Kemalist fantasies, we are after all dealing with people who purposefully destroy Armenian architecture on their lands, so that they could prove a greater legitimacy for the ownership of the land in their deranged imagination. Or like the Saudis who purposefully destroy ancient Islamic holy places, so that they could prove that Islam was always such a minimalist and fundamentalist religion, without intercession of saints and holy tombs. Heck we really are dealing with the people who claim that their predecessor was Attila the Hun, its their official state ideology, that the Xiognu nomads bordering Han dynasty China and the Huns of the 5th Century were the predecessors of the republic of Turkey, with such people, one really could expect any underhanded methods and lies in the defence of their fragile and fake identity.

    Like why the East Asian admixture is greater in Turkey, peaking around 10% in the highlands of Anatolia, but less in Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan? Even though Anatolian Turks came by that way?

    And this fake identity is so mad, when one thinks the huge achievements of the Ottoman Empire. That and the Seldjuk Sultanate should be good, no, not just good, but a magnificent enough basis forthe national identity.

  223. Smith says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Confucianism sure didn’t help the full scale exploitation on poor and dumb asian people in the way of F2P gacha games that generate billions each year.

    This can be done by education on DRM-free games and governments banning these lootboxes and gacha mechanism.

  224. @Rattus Norwegius

    I did not suggest they were 100% East Asian. I stated they tend to pull slightly in a PCA to East Asia compared to other historical groups in Anatolia.

  225. @Coconuts

    Of well if it is PC or Social Justice ideology then as I said to Europa Europa – nobody claims Europe should be anything other than a place for white Europeans… Except for the countries who destabilize others. Sweden wouldn’t fall in that category – but he also can’t blame anyone outside of Sweden

  226. @Agathoklis

    Understood… He’s a very peculiar character. As part of his push to restore the Ottoman Empire – he seems intent on getting into a fight with Russia… Peculiar character indeed.

    • Replies: @128
  227. @songbird

    And just as in the west – pop in in Japan and Korea have mirrored the break down in society. There is little filial piety in either of those former Confucian societies. In the same in the west “honor they father and mother” is broken down in the west. Old people in South Korea commit crimes just to go to jail because they are lonely.. They commit suicide at a high rate in both. Pop music teaches a lot of selfishness…. Birth rates have fallen off the cliff.

  228. 128 says:
    @showmethereal

    Well I am always up for a good shawarma.

  229. Blissex says:

    «replacement level fertility, over the South – which continues to plumb new demographic nadirs with every passing year.»

    For most women sons (children in general) are an expensive, dangerous pension asset. If they can accumulate financial assets as pensions they stop having children except perhaps one as a “hobby”. Therefore fertility is related to how insecure are the old age prospects of most women: the more insecure they look, the more sons women raise to secure them.

    • Replies: @Blissex
  230. Blissex says:

    «This is what 25 million people with an average IQ of 103 can accomplish if they set their minds to it. Still waiting for the Sudan to accomplish something similar. Or even 88 IQ Iran, over whose nuclear program 95 IQ Israelis with a large 103 IQ smart fraction regularly ride roughshod over.»

    IQ means very little, especially tiny differences in averages like that. What anthropologists call “cultural package”, the set of cultural traits, institutions, habits of a people matter far more. China, Korea (both sides) and Japan have one of the most highly developed “cultural packages” in the world, they can organize themselves into a highly developed state and economy quite easily. One of my favourite examples is this quote from Landes “The wealth and poverty of nations”:

    «”Of all things Western, what do you dread most?” asked the Satsuma daimyo Shimazu Nariakira of his councillors. European guns and ships, came the answer. “No,” said the daimyo. “It is cotton cloth. Unless we begin preparing now, we shall soon be dependent on Westerners for our clothing.”
    In an effort to prepare, the han began to distribute better cotton seeds, purchased better spindles and looms (not yet powered), built a manufactory near Kagoshima, and set unemployed samurai to work there. The result: cotton goods costing half as much as before. […] In 1867, it opened a mechanized cotton mill.»

    That attitude from the ruling class exists only in people with a highly developed and ancient (several thousand years according to Neil Diamond) “cultural package”, average “IQ” matters little.

  231. Blissex says:
    @Blissex

    «fertility is related to how insecure are the old age prospects of most women: the more insecure they look, the more sons women raise to secure them.»

    Additional points:

    * This simply means that in north Korea most women don’t expect good pensions, and feel their old age is insecure.

    * The above is a bit simplistic: even if a country has good pensions, women still have more sons (and children) if child bearing and raising is cheap (subsidised), so it does not compete with accumulating a financial pension.

  232. @songbird

    Of course, the whole thing is silly, from a nationalist perspective. Asians have a larger movie market than Europeans do – they have much greater representation than Europeans do, and it is way more national and culturally-oriented.

    That is kind of the problem and the reason why Asian-Americans push for Hollywood representation. A large portion of Asian-Americans are whitewashed bananas, who can’t identify themselves with the Asians that are on-screen in Asian productions. Note that Asians living in their own countries in Asia, that have their own mature film industries, do not clamor for more representation in Hollywood.

    “Crazy Rich Asians” actually tanked in China and South Korea. I’m not surprised by that either. When I watched this movie and compared it to actual East Asian productions, I felt an immense cognitive / cultural dissonance — as if I was watching white actors wearing yellow face, playing pretend at being Asian. I haven’t seen Disney’s Mulan 2020, but its trailer has given me a similar type of dissonance.

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