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Zelenskii negotiates with Skinheads

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Well, that didn’t take too long. Let me summarize what just happened in the Ukraine.

Everything was looking oh-so-promising and then suddenly…

First, Trump, Macron and Merkel apparently told Zelenskii that he had to sign the so-called Steinmeier formula, which basically spells out the sequence of confidence-building and de-escalation measures foreseen by the Minsk Agreements. Now, you would be excused for thinking that this is a no-brainer. After all, the Minsk Agreements were ratified by the UNSC (which makes them mandatory, no “if” or “buts” about this!) and it was Poroshenko who agreed to the Steinmeier formula. Heck, in 2016 he sure did not have a problem with it, but in 2019 he now calls the self-same formula a Russian invention and that there is no such thing as a Steinmeier formula, see for yourself (in Ukrainian only):

So what is the big deal?

The problem of the “non-existing Nazis”

Zelenskii’s problem can be summed up in a simple sentence: the non-existing Nazis. Well, at least in the past all the Neo-Nazis cum Jew-haters were constantly trying to convince us that there are no Nazis in the Ukraine; apparently, my use of the term Ukronazi really set them off. Then came the election in which an absolute majority of Ukrainians rejected Poroshenko’s drive for war and voted for Zelenskii. If the Ukrainian people voted en masse to elect an anti-war/pro-peace Jew, surely the Ukronazis were just a small minority of fringe individuals, right?

Wrong! Very very wrong!

And if those who were whitewashing the Ukrainian Nazis (obviously to obfuscate their real ideology and power) had paid closer attention they would have seen signs of real Nazi power all over this election.

First, there was the remarkable change in tone in Zelenskii’s rhetoric. Just like so many politicians (including Trump!), he radically changed his tune and clearly tried to say one thing when speaking to the general Ukrainian public and quite another when meeting with the Nazis or nationalist exiles in the USA.

You could say that there is a “Nazi deep state” in the Ukraine which, just like the other deep states out there, can weather any elected president and quickly reassert its control over whomever the people elected.

You don’t believe me when I say that he actually hosted the Ukronazis “fringe minority”? Fine, see for yourself:

In the photo above, Zelenskii is sitting with your typical gang of Ukronazi skinheads, including members of the infamous Azov death-squad, and he is trying really hard to charm them while they, very publicly, have threatened him with a new Maidan.

And this is not an isolated case or a fluke.

Sokira Peruna concert poster
Sokira Peruna concert poster

Zelenskii’s prime minister went to a concert for an openly Nazi “Scream” music group called Sekira Peruna and thanked the crowd of veterans of the “anti terrorist operation” (i.e. thugs from the Ukronazi deathsquads) for being there and for saving the Ukraine. I did not find any English language translation of the typical lyrics of Sekira Peruna, but I assure you that they contain all the obligatory nonsense which the Nazi ideology is built upon (see here for a very good article with more details on this event and the Nazis involved).

Check out what their concert posters look like (shown here on the right) or, even better, check out the website of this group: http://sokyraperuna.com/

‘Nuff said, I think.

So what is going on here?

Basically, exactly what I predicted as soon as Zelenskii was elected in my article “Zelenskii’s dilemma” in which I wrote: (emphasis added)

The Nazi-occupied Ukraine is not a democracy, but a plutocracy combined with an ochlocracy. The oligarchs are still there, as are the neo-Nazis mobs and death squads. And that creates an immense problem for Zelenskii: this new Rada might well represent the views of a majority of the Ukrainian people, but the real power in the country is not concentrated in the Rada at all: it is in the streets (…) The people of the Ukraine desperately want peace. For the time being, the Rada reflects this overwhelmingly important fact. I say “for the time being” because what will happen next is that the various forces and individuals who currently support Zelenskii have done so just to gain power. They do not, however, have a common ideological platform or even a common program. As soon as things go south (which they will inevitably do) many (most?) of these folks will turn against Zelenskii and side with whoever can muster the biggest crowds and mete out the most violence. Now that he got elected, Zelenskii quasi-instantly switched to the exact same rhetoric as what got Poroshenko so severely defeated. Why? Because Zelenskiii is afraid that the neo-Nazi mobs and death squads will be unleashed against him at the very first opportunity. In fact, the neo-Nazis have already begun promising a new Maidan. The truth is that Zelenskii has to choose between acting on the will of the people and face the wrath of the neo-Nazis or do the will of the neo-Nazis and face the wrath of the people: tertium non datur! So far, Zelenskii has apparently decided that talking is all he is going to do simply because his triumphant electoral victories have landed him in the middle of an immense minefield, and any steps he takes from now on could cost him very dearly. Right now, in the short term, the neo-Nazi mobs represent a much bigger danger to Zelenskii than the (disorganized, demoralized and generally apathetic) people. But this will inevitably change as the economic and political situation gets worse.

We see exactly that scenario unfolding before our eyes. Zelenskii took not one, but three very real, if small, steps. First, he ordered a pullback of some regular Ukrainian armed forces from a few important segments of the line of contact, then he agreed to a relatively minor prisoner exchange and, finally, he ordered the Ukrainian delegation to sign the Steinmeier formula. The prisoner exchange went okay for both sides. The Ukronazis soon categorically rejected any withdrawal and they publicly promised to immediately re-occupy any village vacated by the regular army and they rejected what they call the “Russian” or “Putin” formula. So far there were a few attempts to block the thugs of the Azov battalion, but after a few minor clashes, the Azov people passed the police line. And now, the Nazi organized mass protests in 300 Ukrainian cities. I could post lots of videos here, but that would take a lot of space. If you want to get a feel for what took place today, go to YouTube and copy-paste the following search query “протесты в украине” into the search bar, and then use the filter option and chose “this week”: you will easily get many hours of video and you don’t even need to understand a word of Ukrainian to immediately get it.

ORDER IT NOW

There is another very important factor which you will almost never see on these videos or on any public statements and that is that there are a number of civil and even criminal cases currently being brought to trial in the Ukraine against a host of officials of the ancient régime including even against Poroshenko (11-14 separate investigations just for him already!) These men (Poroshenko, Parubii, Turchinov, etc.) now have absolutely no choice but to try to overthrow Zelenskii.

Just like the US Dems need a coup against Trump (in the form of an impeachment or something else) because the Clinton-Biden gang now risks real, hard, jail time, so do the former Ukronazi leaders now need a coup against Zelenskii or they go to jail.

Initially, it appeared that Trump had given Poroshenko some personal security guarantees, but everybody knows how much the US President’s security “guarantees” are worth (just ask the Kurds!). So Poroshenko did not flee the country. It now appears that some of the people behind Zelenskii (aka Kolomoiskii) are out to get the “Poroshenko clan & Associates” – Poroshenko has to either topple Zelenskii or run away abroad. There are also rumors that the US “deep state” (as opposed to the Trump Administration) is now putting pressure on Zelenskii to stop these investigations. Thus, the current battle between Trump and the Neocons and their “deep state” has now spilled over into the Ukraine and it appears that various US interest groups are now creating local Ukrainian surrogates whom they will use in their struggle against each other.

Furthermore, a real possibility opened up now that all sorts of previously buried issues will be investigated by the Ukrainian prosecutors including:

  1. An official and true investigation to find out who opened fired on the police and demonstrators during the Euromaidan
  2. MH-17
  3. Ukronazi atrocities in the Donbass
  4. Human rights violations in the Ukraine (where over 1000 political prisoners are still being held) starting with innumerable cases of horrible torture of detainees (in secret torture camps, à la CIA, including an especially infamous one in Mariupol).
  5. Poroshenko’s role in the “Crimea Bridge provocation”
  6. All the many murders of journalists and opponents to the Nazis beginning with the murder of Oles Buzina
  7. A quasi infinite list of war profiteering, corruption, fraud, etc. etc. etc.

Simply put: there is no way that the Ukronazis will just stand by and let those investigations proceed. And while it is true that numerically the Ukronazis are a small minority in the Ukraine, there is plenty enough of them to terrify Zelenskii and his handlers, especially considering that they are 1) well armed 2) many have frontline combat experience and 3) that they are willing not only to engage in “regular” violence, but also to commit atrocities and engage in terrorism (they did plenty of both in the Donbass).

Zelenskii does have a number of things going for him: first, the mandate of the people (though his popularity is already down from 73% to 66% – which is still very big), his legal prerogatives as the President and Commander in Chief and the support of Kolomoiskii’s strong network of international connections, especially in Israel.

But that is all rather theoretical so far.

All Zelenskii has done, besides hosting the skinheads in his office, was to make a 14 hour long interview with a group of reporters. Yes, fourteen hours. Alas, all he achieved was to show that he is a much better actor than politician. In fact, most experts seem to agree that in his role as President Zelenskii is a total failure who speaks a lot, says a lot of silly things when he does, and seems to be absolutely unable to take any real action.

At the time of writing (Wed 16th) the leader of the Ukronazis has given Zelenskii 10 days to yield to all the demands of the opposition. If not, he has promised to trigger a new Maidan and bring millions of people to the streets.

Yup. The “tiny” “fringe” and otherwise “non-existing” Nazis have now given Zelenskii an ultimatum.

Zelenskii is in free fall: Trump, Macron and Merkel are demanding that he abide by the decisions of the UNSC, the Minsk Agreements and the Steinmeier formula. The Russians have clearly indicated that unless tangible and real progress is made in the implementation of this formula, there will be nothing else to discuss. The Ukraine is basically bankrupt and desperately needs both Novorussian coal and Russian gas. Furthermore, only a removal of the self-defeating barriers and boycotts imposed by the former regime against any trade or even communications with Russia could begin to kick-start the economy of what is now clearly a failed state.

Yet the Nazis will oppose any and all such measures, with violence if needed. As for Zelenskii, he appears to be in a no win situation: no matter what he does next, things will only get worse. Thus the most likely outcome of all these processes will be, in the short term, further futile attempts by Zelenskii to appease the Nazis (thereby alienating the general population), in the middle term a violent confrontation, followed in the long term by (the probably inevitable) break-up of the Ukraine into separately much more viable parts.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine, Vladimir Zelensky 
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  1. anon[190] • Disclaimer says:

    “followed in the long term by (the probably inevitable) break-up of the Ukraine into separately much more viable parts.”

    exactly what I said, 3 or 4 years ago, should happen

  2. AP says:

    But this will inevitably change as the economic and political situation gets worse.

    A correction for those living in fantasy-land:

    Ukraine’s economy has been getting better for years, and for those parts of Ukraine under Kiev’s government rule is now the best it has been since the early 90s’ post-independence collapse in terms of GDP per capita PPP (which is a low bar, admittedly):

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA

    The real positive changes they have experiences in the last couple of years is why Ukrainians are now the most optimistic people n Europe about their country:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/15/european-public-opinion-three-decades-after-the-fall-of-communism/

    But by all means, go back to your fantasy about Ukraine being Somalia or collapsing lol…

  3. Whoa! Just exactly how many Sakers are there? Looks like this one forgot to insert the usual tired obligatory hamfisted references to Da Notorious AngloZionist Bugbear? What gives? Is someone losing their touch?

    • Replies: @Anon
  4. @AP

    Ukrainians, the most optimistic people in Europe about their country.
    Now I’ve heard everything.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anne Lid
  5. NPleeze says:
    @AP

    Useless chart, you have to look at constant dollars, which shows that per capita GDP is not back to 2014 levels yet.

    And GDP per capita is not that useful, what is more interesting is average income, since in Ukraine wealth distribution is, let’s say, unequal. But WorldBank doesn’t show that. Fortuantely, this site does, and what it shows is that Ukraine’s annual household income (per capita) was $2,601 in 2013 and is $1,693 now, for a 35% reduction. (Granted it was down to $1,109 in 2015, for a peak loss of 57%.)

    • Replies: @AP
  6. AP says:
    @Melotte 22

    The real world is shocking for those stuck in a bubble.

    • Replies: @Melotte 22
  7. AP says:
    @NPleeze

    And GDP per capita is not that useful, what is more interesting is average income, since in Ukraine wealth distribution is, let’s say, unequal.

    Ukraine’s wealth distribution is actually fairly equal, much more so than Russia’s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

    In Ukraine the richest 10% have 5.9 times more wealth than the poorest 10%. This is the same as Slovenia and Hungary. In Russia it is 12.7, in the USA 18.5. Ukraine just has less wealth to be distributed. (in comparison, in Mexico it is 21.6, Honduras 59 – this is where you get shanty towns)

    Fortuantely, this site does, and what it shows is that Ukraine’s annual household income (per capita) was $2,601 in 2013 and is $1,693 now, for a 35% reduction. (Granted it was down to $1,109 in 2015, for a peak loss of 57%.)

    1. That’s because the value of the currency has fallen. PPP takes into account the cost of living, which has also dropped considerably. Constant dollars just tells you it is harder for Ukrainians to be tourists abroad or to buy imported things like cars or iphones. Ukraine is large enough that it produces its own food, clothes,. construction materials, appliances. These have become chesper as incomes in US $ have declined.

    Russia has also had a large currency drop but it hasn’t gotten appreciably poorer. Some of the same nonsense written in the West about Russia, is believed by pro-Russians about Ukraine.

    2. Your chart stops at 2018. 2019 has seen a large increase in wages:

    https://www.kyivpost.com/business/real-wages-in-ukraine-8-1-up-in-june.html

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  8. Anonymous[314] • Disclaimer says:

    Interesting that of the Western European countries only Germany and Sweden are even vaguely optimistic about the future, they’re also the most stupidly pro-mass immigration.

    Perhaps naive and unrealistic optimism is just a part of the psyche of those countries because I don’t see they have anything to be optimistic about?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Robjil
  9. Anonymous[314] • Disclaimer says:

    People often claim that Slavs are anti-Jewish and right wing, yet the average Slav seems very keen to elect Jews to positions of power and look up to them, probably more so than Westerners I would say.

    A lot of these Jewish oligarch types seem to be considered almost national heroes in Russia and the Ukraine. Slavs seem like very Jewed people in general.

  10. Robjil says:
    @Anonymous

    Ukrainian USSR is now Ukrainian USA. This is perhaps the “optimism”. They think being part of the USA club will bring them up.

    It is not working in the EU or in other USA overseas territories. They know better.

  11. The Ukraine is another region intentionally dragged into chaos. On one end there are the Gershmans, Nulands, and Albrights funding “Ukronazis.” This is the CFR and the NED. On the other end of the controlled dialectic are Chabad and the Red Mafiya endorsing Putin’s control. The end result of this chaos is full-spectrum dominance that only benefits Jewish entities.

    The Sokira Peruna poster, that the Saker presents was composed and distributed for a concert held in honor of Lithuania’s March 11th day of independence.

    Lithuania is a country held firmly in the grasp of the National Endowment for Democracy whose head is Carl Gershman. Why is Gershman, a proud Zionist Jew as well as a Globalist, funding projects in Lithuania that indirectly benefit groups like the “Ukronazis?”

    Structured order is NOT the final goal of these people. Chaos and maintaining control behind that chaos is what they want.

    vs.

    https://www.ned.org/remarks-by-carl-gershman-to-the-parliament-of-lithuania-on-day-of-restoration/
    https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/24/ukraine-jewish-billionaires-batallion-sent-to-fight-pro-russian-militias/
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-love-or-politics-behind-putins-promotion-of-chabad/
    http://www.jta.org/2014/07/10/global/putin-thanks-rabbis-for-communities-fight-against-nazi-revival-1

    • Replies: @Robjil
  12. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:

    Jews hate far-right nationalists in Western Europe but seem to actively encourage them in Eastern Europe, I don’t really understand it.

    I assume it’s because Jews simply infiltrate and take over the movements they consider to have a lot of public support and then steer them to their advantage, and in many Eastern European countries that is far-right pro-Nazi movements, whereas in Western Europe similar movements are just fringe groups that have almost no support so they are of no benefit to Jews at all.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  13. Anne Lid says:
    @Melotte 22

    When you are at the bottom of the pit, you think that from now on the only way is up.

    • Replies: @Melotte 22
  14. Robjil says:
    @Jon Baptist

    Chabbad is monitored in Russia. Look at all the rabbis kicked out of Russia recently. Our Boomergang CIA/Mossad Media tell us a lot and get us back in the same place. This Chabbad in Russia stuff mania by this Media is one of the tricks. Chabbad in the USA really pulls the strings, no monitoring.
    Russia is trying to tame the Zio masters. The USA doesn’t even try to tame our Zio masters, it just licks their boots.

    https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-born-rabbi-called-extremist-kicked-out-of-Russia-540444

    MOSCOW — For the eighth time this past decade, Russian authorities told a foreign Chabad rabbi living in Russia to leave the country.

    Josef Marozof, a New York-born rabbi who began working 12 years ago for Chabad in the city of Ulyanovsk 400 miles east of Moscow, was ordered earlier this week to leave because the FSB security service said he had been involved in unspecified “extremist behavior.”
    Marozof appealed the decision in a supreme court but his appeal was denied Saturday, the news site Jewish.ru reported Tuesday. He, his wife and six children, who were all born in Russia, have left for the United States.

    There are many articles like this. Here is another one from a Jewish site.

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/russia-s-foreign-born-rabbis-are-falling-away-from-putin-s-inner-circle-1.467024

    It is a difficult time to be a foreign rabbi in Russia.

    For several years the government has been working to deport believers and missionaries from Christian denominations, but there are clear signs this programme is extending to non-Russian rabbis too.

    Asher Krichevsky, the Israeli-born rabbi for the Siberian town of Omsk, was last month given a deportation order for “threatening national security and the constitutional order of Russia.”

  15. Putin is still surrounded by numerous Lubavich oligarchs like Abramovich. As I wrote previously the intention is to create chaos as an external, violent and very tangible facade. Who is dictating behind the facade?

    Interesting to note that NED’s Gershman worked for B’nai B’rith/ADL in the late sixties. This international fraternity has massive sway worldwide and it’s members that span the globe remain almost completely invisible from public view.

  16. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! As if you couldn’t be any more of a hopeless case,. spamtroll, deranged nutjob, pitiful troll – I see you immediately on this board as one of the first 2posters, having done inevitably a 18 hour shift on the Karlin blog. You obviously have extreme mental problems – It is simply an abnormal amount of time to spend – even worse is it takes a dumb but above all possessed by the devil mind ( as I’m sure all the advanced countries 300 years ago would assume a freak as you is) to actually write this nutjob nonsense that you do.

    The real positive changes they have experiences in the last couple of years is why Ukrainians are now the most optimistic people n Europe about their country:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/15/european-public-opinion-three-decades-after-the-fall-of-communism/

    LOL – a study that makes no sense, asking the most untrustworthy country in the world……asking what the NEXT GENERATION ( I.e.the ones not experiencing the worst of this sewer state) if they are going to be in a better position in the future compared to this disaster state now?
    Of course they think there children are going to be better off….if you are at the bottom now ,having booted out the previous president in disgrace with 16% ( probably should have been closer to 6%), got rid of the disastrous pseudo-democrat MP’s for the last 5 years in Rada , having consumption at its lowest level, no construction, infrastructure a disgrace, roads a disaster, medicine a massive problem, huge corruption, millions leaving……..the only logic is that it cant get any worse you thick cretin.

    The country is nowhere near to Yanukovich levels in it’s economy, nowhere near USSR levels

    As if that “study’ (i.e attention-whoring deflection by a spambot troll freak with plenty of time to give) wasn’t enough – the actually relevant ( though nothing beats actual experience of Ukraine or family or critical thinking) World Happiness report lists Ukrainian satisfaction at comically bad levels that would shame the majority of African countries!

    World Happinness Report – is about a million times more reasearched and creditable that the random garbage your sick mind posted ( because you are a fantasist, who doesn’t speak Russian /Ukrainian or visited there AND who bizarrely poses as a medical professional despite a knowledge on AIDS/HIV that would shame a 3 year old) lists Ukraine at the incredible figure and success of…………………………………….

    138!!!!!!!!!!!

    138th out of 156 you thick clown! Literally the worst soviet country, the worst white country , literally one of the worse African countries around, literally only beaten by the likes of war zones as Syria and Yemen

    Even I was shocked. I know only too well how bad things are in Ukropia – that said , these rankings shocked even me. The sad thing is that they have fallen from the “high” ranking of 132.

    And, yes- Somalia is MUCH higher you idiot. lol

    • Replies: @AP
  17. @Anonymous

    Jews are currently anti-Russian, and ‘far right’ groups in Eastern Europe tend to be anti-Russian.

    Imperialists generally suppress nationalism but encourage it against rival powers.

    USSR suppressed national liberation in Warsaw Pact nations but encouraged it in Cuba and Vietnam.
    US suppressed national sovereignty among its client states but encouraged it in Afghanistan and Eastern Bloc nations during the Cold War.

  18. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Oh dear, someone missed their Invega injection….

  19. Begemot says:
    @AP

    Ukraine’s economy has been getting better for years, and for those parts of Ukraine under Kiev’s government rule is now the best it has been since the early 90s’ post-independence collapse in terms of GDP per capita

    My Ukrainian mother-in-law is a pensioner and lives in an area of Ukraine that is under Kiev’s control. Before the events of the Maidan in February 2014 her pension was sufficient to cover all of her needs. Today, her pension isn’t enough to pay the gas bill. She is fortunate that her grandson lives with her and has his economic support (he is a teacher). However, even both of their incomes have proven inadequate. The amount of money my wife and I send to her family in Ukraine each month has been increasing so that they can maintain a lifestyle that in American terms would be considered poverty level, but is average for where they live in Ukraine. There is not much hope there. The last time my wife spoke to her cousin, who resides in a village outside of the city where her family lives, he was working in construction in Moscow.

    What I relate here is only anecdotal, so you can dismiss it as you please, since it doesn’t support your statistics. I’m sure there are Ukrainians whose economic status has improved greatly since February 2014. I know Poroshenko is vastly wealthier now than before he became the president of Ukraine. There are always some who prosper in every calamity.

    But by all means, go back to your fantasy about Ukraine being Somalia or collapsing lol…

    For the Ukrainians I know, their immiseration isn’t a fantasy. So who is the fantasist here?

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @AP
  20. Anon[333] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reality Cheque

    Is labeling Zionist critique as “hamfisted”some kind of irony exercise for a high school language arts class?

  21. Sean says:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-20/eastern-europe-feeds-on-a-shrinking-ukraine

    The loss of the relatively pro-Russian populations of Crimea and eastern Ukraine has boosted the election chances of pro-EU, pro-North Atlantic Treaty Organization politicians. But it’s often the most active and enterprising Ukrainians who seek their fortunes overseas;

    Sclerosis not schism is the most likely future.

  22. AP says:
    @Begemot

    My Ukrainian mother-in-law is a pensioner and lives in an area of Ukraine that is under Kiev’s control. Before the events of the Maidan in February 2014 her pension was sufficient to cover all of her needs. Today, her pension isn’t enough to pay the gas bill. ….

    And my relatives in central Ukraine (from an oblast that borders Kiev oblast) went on holiday to Turkey with their relatives for the first time. This is not a big deal for Russians, but a first for these people in Ukraine. Over the years we had been sending them clothes, helping them with money but now they do not need it anymore. So anecdotal experience works both ways. The problem with relying only on anecdotal evidence is that there can always be exceptions. There are poor people even in Switzerland, after all. But n this case, my anecdotal information matches the overall trends in the country while yours is more exceptional.

  23. Begemot says:
    @AP

    Are you saying that the condition of pensioners in Ukraine has generally improved since the Maidan?

    • Replies: @AP
  24. @AP

    Are you pro-Azov brigade?

    Crimea belongs to which Nation?

  25. The historian Webster G Tarpley has written that Ukraine isnt a historical country. It is only about 100 years old! It was made up from Russia and some of Poland in 1918 and formed by a general from the German General staff (name I cant remember), you can look it up. Kiev was historically a Russian city, you can find it in Russian literature and culture. A friend of mine had a father who regarded himself as Russian and was from Kiev.

  26. AP says:
    @Begemot

    The situation for pensioners may not have improved, but for their kids and grandkids, on average, there has been significant improvement. This has more than made up for the problems for pensioners. One of my mother’s cousins is a pensioner whose children are in Ukraine. They are not complaining. The kids can help their parents and they now have enough disposable income to travel to a cheap resort in Turkey – something impossible before.

    • Replies: @Begemot
    , @Melotte 22
  27. Begemot says:
    @AP

    So those Ukrainian pensioners who don’t have children who can afford to travel abroad must accept their fate and … what, die? A sacrifice to the new Ukraine? So the children can travel abroad? Glad your people are doing so well.

    • Replies: @AP
  28. @AP

    It sure is. Wish you a speedy recovery.

  29. @Anne Lid

    Well, that is all they can do. Looking up, from the bottom of the pit.

  30. @AP

    Lol. You are full of it.

    • Replies: @AP
  31. AP says:
    @Begemot

    Well, whenever there is a change there are some who benefit more than do others. Pensioners in general in the former USSR are doing worse than when the USSR existed. Even in Russia. But overall people are doing much better.

  32. AP says:
    @Melotte 22

    Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile the world moves on.

  33. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    And my relatives in central Ukraine (from an oblast that borders Kiev oblast) went on holiday to Turkey with their relatives for the first time. This is not a big deal for Russians, but a first for these people in Ukraine

    LOL you dumb excrement- that is a completely fictional story. Wages haven’t picked upto 2014 levels in west/central Ukraine you idiot and just as comically:

    1. For the majority of time after the coup until the Americans collapsed the Turkish Lira, the currency was 2-3 times stronger against the Gryvniya compared to in 2014, making the idea for these invented fucktards to have “suddenly had this opportunity to go to Turkey compared to before” because of “prosperity” – utterly ridiculous. Opportunity there under Yanukovich, then only a small bit of political and economic co-operation such as after Russian banned flights for a year there ( smallcooperation for Turkey not for Ukrop) has created a slightly easier opportunity to go there – dwarfed by the costs involved and only eased slightly because of the pressure on the Turkish currency in the last 1.5 years

    2. About the same number of Ukrainians going now to Turkey as before 2015 you idiot – “coincidentally” Russians en masse also go there. Idea they “never had this opportunity until now” is fantasist and braindead

    3. Amusingly in your lie you were too thick to bring in an EU country which would have made more sense considering Ukrainians with Russians have been travelling alot to Turkey in the last decade and the whole point is of ukrops trying and failing to integrate more with the EU
    4 Let’s not forget prostitution/Turkish husbands

    I did also find it amusing that on my family holiday to Majorca this summer – not a single person speaking Ukrainian out of literally several hundred Russians we came across. How many Ukrainian citizens in that lot of Russian speakers? – maybe 4 at best. That is Majorca where everyone from the super-rich to the low-wage holidaymaker travel to

    So anecdotal experience works both ways. The problem with relying only on anecdotal evidence is that there can always be exceptions.

    The main problem is that it can be invented by fantasist stalker trolls as yourself. Picking random regions in Ukraine you have never been to and inventing “family “stories…even more ridiculous then somehow not knowing what the word “mir” can mean in Russia and just generally trying to make insiduous, fake arguments to occupy your non-life.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  34. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Still triggered and off your meds?

  35. NPleeze says:
    @AP

    Ukraine’s wealth distribution is actually fairly equal, much more so than Russia’s.

    LOL at that data, what utter horse manure. According to the GINI index, Ukraine is the most egalitarian country in the world. Even though a dozen billionaires own just about everything while the average salary is under $500 / month.

    Give me a break, that data is utterly and totally wrong. Ukraine’s wealth inequality there is extreme.

    In Ukraine the richest 10% have 5.9 times more wealth than the poorest 10%.

    Utter horseshit. 5,900 times, maybe, but probably even more than that. Poor people live one family per bedroom in a tiny 50 square meter 3-BR apartment, take the bus, and live off bread and lard. Rich people all drive Land Rovers and have huge mansions with maids, etc., eat caviar, and have investment properties.

    Ukraine is large enough that it produces its own food, clothes,. construction materials, appliances. These have become chesper as incomes in US $ have declined.

    These are all international markets with international prices. I have lived there, I know exactly what prices are. The only thing really cheap there is bread and lard, and that’s what poor people eat. Clothes are mostly from Turkey.

    Kyiv Post is utter trash, don’t believe a word they write.

    • Replies: @AP
  36. AP says:
    @NPleeze

    LOL at that data, what utter horse manure. According to the GINI index, Ukraine is the most egalitarian country in the world.

    Um, no. It’s about the same as Hungary and Slovenia.

    Even though a dozen billionaires

    Ukraine only has 7 billionaires:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainians_by_net_worth

    In a country of ~35 milli0n.

    These wpould not skew the results too much. You know, math.

    Give me a break, that data is utterly and totally wrong.

    OK, so UN or whoever compiled that index is wrong but internet anon is right.

    In Ukraine the richest 10% have 5.9 times more wealth than the poorest 10%.

    Utter horseshit. 5,900 times, maybe, but probably even more than that

    LOL, so in your world the richest 10% of Ukrainians (3.5 million people) are millionaires or something. Very funny.

    Ukraine is large enough that it produces its own food, clothes,. construction materials, appliances. These have become chesper as incomes in US $ have declined.

    These are all international markets with international prices.

    You can go online and check restaurant prices, for example. Steak that cost $50 in the USA, costs $10 (or less) in Ukraine. Here is Georgian restaurant in Vinnytsia:

    $1.91 for an order of pork shish-kebab. $1.20 for chicken shish kebab.

    It’s a fancy place, for Vinnytsia, not some little hole in the wall diner:

    I noticed that in Ukraine one can have nice meals in good restaurants for less than it costs to buy groceries and make food at home in the USA.

  37. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    I know that as a Sovok civil “engineer” you can’t do math, so I checked this:

    About the same number of Ukrainians going now to Turkey as before 2015 you idiot

    In 2013 – 531,000 Ukrainians visited Turkey in the first 8 months:

    https://www.blackseanews.net/en/read/71429

    About 663,000 for the year.

    1.35 million visited in 2018:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10422315-some-1-35-mln-ukrainian-tourists-visit-turkey-in-2018.html

    1.5 million expected this year, according to the Turks:

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2801303-number-of-ukrainian-tourists-in-turkey-may-reach-15-mln-this-year-ambassador.html

    :::::::::::::

    So you think that 1.5 million is the same as 660,000. Math is hard?

    And keep in mind that Ukraine’s population was higher in 2013 than now.

  38. utu says:

    The Ukrainian people have a historical opportunity to have their own sovereign country. It is the best opportunity they ever had. But they should try not to screw it up this time. Most importantly they should remember who their benefactors are and that the chief purpose of Ukraine is to make Russia weaker and that their benefactor do not really care about their national identity and culture. The world can live w/o Ukraine as it did so far but it happens that the world needs Ukraine in this historical moment. Obviously this is good for smaller countries of Eastern Europe that historically did not have good experience with Russia and want Russia to be shifted east. So Ukraine is a buffer state for them. Furthermore this is good for the US and the Anglo-American world order that wanted to prevent creating German Russian economical power. Germany must be cut off from Russia. Ukrainian conflict and the de facto (self) imposed sanctions on Germany keep Germany and Russia in check. By having Ukraine, by supporting the geopolitical initiative of Trimarium both Russia and Germany are going to be separated and will be weaker. This is good for America. This is good for the Masters of the Universe who thrive on chaos and by creating more players like Ukraine now can increase the scope of their divide et impera realm.

    • Replies: @AP
  39. AP says:
    @utu

    Agree with your post. About this part –

    “It is the best opportunity they ever had. But they should try not to screw it up this time.”

    It is also true of the small countries between Russia and Germany. They need not to screw things up either, and Ukraine linked to them would be very helpful for them in preventing a reversion to the situation where they are puppets or colonies of the Russians and Germans, as had been the case when the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and Austria-Hungary disappeared.

  40. @AP

    In your alternative universe Porky was propelled to re-election by a strong Ukrainian economy 🙂

    Edit: I see that once again comment section has been hijacked by a certain Canadian patriot of the Ukraine.

  41. Hate will tear a country down.

    Love, faith, and sense will build it up.

  42. @AP

    Ukraine was in such a terrible economic state that an expansion of its economy, no matter how small would be received with open arms by the Ukrainians. Ukraine is still a total basket case and is nowhere as well off as it was before the manufactured Maidan. That is a fact so don’t let this Neonazi /US propaganda make you think otherwise. Just look around and you will discover the truth. If the Ukrainians allow the Right Sektor and other extremists to get away with threatening their own president than you can write off Ukraine as any kind of country period!

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