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First, it appeared to be a fluke: this summer the Ukronazi regime sent a small terrorist unit into Crimea tasked with blowing up several targets in the Crimea (see here for details). They were arrested by the Russian security services. In November, another two saboteurs were caught by the FSB (see here). And now something really remarkable happened. The Ukronazi security service kidnapped two Russian citizens in broad daylight and accused them of being “deserters”. Turns out that the two kidnapped men are Maksim Odintsov and Alexander Baranov and that both of them are junior servicemen in the Russian military (ensign and junior sergeant). Apparently, what happened is this: Odintsov and Baranov used to serve in the Ukrainian military (at least that is what the SBU claims), but when Crimea, where Odintsov and Baranov live, returned to Russia they did what tens of thousands of other Ukrainian servicemen did – they joined the Russian military. The two were lured to the neutral zone between Crimea and the Ukraine by men who promised them that they could give them diplomas proving that they had a higher education from Ukrainian institutions. You can watch this video to see what actually happened next (no translation needed):

The video also shows one of the two men, with a superb shiner on his face, admitting that he had served in the Ukrainian military and that he is guilty of treason. What is remarkable here is that the Ukronazis kidnapped these two men in broad daylight in an location which was clearly under video monitoring, and that they then showed one of the hostages with a clear sign of the beating he received. No matter how incompetent the SBU is, they are not so incompetent as to not realize the fantastically provocative nature of their actions. This was an absolutely deliberate provocation whose goal was to get some kind of Russian reaction, either in Crimea or somewhere else.

What were they really hoping for?

Probably for some kind of Russian reaction which would reach across the border: some kind of attack on the Ukrainian border post, or maybe an artillery strike. Maybe even an attempt to free the two men, or even a retaliatory counter-kidnapping. What they knew is that any Russian reaction across the border would have been met by a hysterical chorus of outrage from the western political leaders and their corporate media.

For the time being, the (hideously slowly clumsy and poorly updated) website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs had nothing to say. The (marginally better) website of the President of Russia offered this reaction:

Question: Mr President, I want to clarify the situation with the Russian military service personnel detained by the Ukrainians. What measures are you taking?

Vladimir Putin: I cannot say anything about these measures yet and can say only what we know at present, which is that these military servicemen formerly served in the Ukrainian armed forces and, after Crimea’s reunification with Russia, decided to serve in the Russian armed forces.

In this respect, let me say first of all that we have always had great respect for and trust in Ukrainian military service personnel, and therefore proposed that they continue their service in our ranks.

Second, they wanted to obtain confirmation of education at one of Ukraine’s higher education establishments, and this was why they went to the border. They were lured a few metres further and detained.

I think this kind of treachery will ultimately turn against those who carry out such acts. This is the same kind of thing as switching off the power supply to Crimea in winter and just before New Year. If people in Ukraine think they can win Crimea residents’ sympathy this way, this amounts to an attack using inappropriate means, to use legal language.

In other words: other than issuing a verbal condemnation, Russia will not react in any dramatic manner. This is, of course, the correct decision, especially now that Trump is hopefully going to replace the Neocons with some patriotically minded and mentally sane officials. But there is also an inherent risk in this Russian stance: it invites the Ukronazis to further escalate their provocations.

Consider this: while the junta in Kiev has been constantly shelling the Donbass, the Kremlin did nothing to stop it. When top Novorussian officials, such as Motorola, were murdered by somebody hired by the junta, the Russians again did nothing. Nor did the Moscow retaliate when the Ukronazis sent saboteurs into Crimea. What I fear is that next the Ukronazis will combine these two provocations into one and attack Crimea directly, either by lobbing a mortar shell directly across the border or even with an artillery attack upon a town in northern Crimea.

While from a military point of view a Russian response is a no-brainer, from the political point of view this might be much harder. Imagine this:

ORDER IT NOW

The SBU hides one single artillery piece in a town just north of the Crimean-Ukrainian border and then begins to shell, at night, of course, Russian military positions or town, in northern Crimea. Several Russian soldiers or civilians are killed, more are wounded. The Russian counter-battery radars will immediately and easily detect the location from which these attacks came, but we all know since the MH-17 that Russian radar recordings are considered worthless by the western corporate media. And if the Russian counter-strike hits a town, this will be presented as yet another aggression against the “sovereign and free Ukraine”. The Russians all remember how on 08.08.08 it was Russia, not Georgia, which was declared the aggressor and how when months later the investigative committees of the EU declared that, well, no, it was actually the Georgians who attacked the Russian peacekeepers nobody in the West paid any attention to this. The reality is that the otherwise weak, militarily incompetent, Ukraine holds the “escalation dominance” over Russia, especially in Crimea. Yes, on every rung of the escalatory ladder Russia is vastly more capable and powerful than the Ukraine, but it is the Ukraine which can chose on which rung of the escalatory ladder it chooses to engage Russia. Sounds paradoxical?

That is because, as I have been repeating for years now, the purpose of the regime in Kiev is not to win an unwinnable conflict against Russia, but only to draw Russia into the Ukraine. Russia should have escalation dominance over the Ukraine, but in reality it is Ukraine which will get to chose at which rung of the escalation ladder Russia will be forced to react. This is a typical case where “the action is in the reaction”.

And let’s be honest, with the US Neocons out of power very soon, at least temporarily, the junta in Kiev has absolutely nothing to lose from a direct, blatant, attack on Russia. Think of it: the EU and NATO leaders in Europe are absolutely horrified by the Trump victory and they are desperate for a crisis, any crisis, which would give them a meaning, a sense of purpose, a justification before the European public opinion. As for the Americans, Trump will only become President on January 20th, that leaves them enough time to react to any crisis, even an artificial one, in such a manner as to preempt any attempts by the new administration to improve relations with Russia.

Sure looks to me like the Neocons, the EU/NATO comprador elites and the Ukronazis in Kiev all have exactly the same interests: trigger a crisis before Trump is sworn in.

In the meantime, the Minister of Culture of the Ukraine has declared that the people of the Donbass a “genetically unfit” to accept the Ukrainian culture (does anybody still wonder why I call this regime “Ukronazi” and not “Ukrainian”?) while the European Parliament has declared that the EU is in a state of “informational war” with Russia and that the EU needs to “respond” to the Russian attack.

As for Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are all preparing for an imminent Russian invasion. As for the Poles, they are busy exhuming the body of Lech Kaczynski in the hope to prove that Russian shot down his aircraft in 2010.

The next couple of months will be very dangerous indeed.

P.S. Just when I was about to post this article, I saw this on RT: Kiev to hold missile-firing exercise over Crimea. This confirms, alas, the morbid drive of the Ukronazis to get some kind of provocation going in Crimea.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. Yeah, the final throes of the grotesque Kiev regime, most likely. It won’t be missed.

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  2. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Did the saboteurs receive any training from foreigners, specifically the Americans? Similarly, are the actions of provocation home grown or being directed by foreign ‘advisors’? The CIA has been heavily involved there for some time now so they’ve probably been doling out money and assembling mercenary forces within Ukraine to act as their cat’s paw. Sabotage can’t really alter anything, some people get killed and some facilities get destroyed which then just get repaired. Mostly it seems to be geared towards baiting others into doing something rash. Ukraine used to manufacture a lot of weaponry. I wonder how much is finding it’s way to the other US clients, the Islamic jihadis in Syria?

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert
    Do you see the parallel between this operation of provoking the Russians with the CIA/Israeli action of murdering Iranian scientists to get Iran to retaliate so they could bomb them in return or kidnapping Hizbollah fighters? These neo-Nazis are being trained by the Israelis.
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  3. You’re right about them desperately trying to provoke Russia: https://www.rt.com/news/368181-ukraine-crimea-firing-exercise/

    The question is: are they doing it on their own, or are they being directed by their mad neocon puppet-masters in the Obama administration?

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Most likely, this is an affair of converging interests of the US ziocons and the local Ukrainian profiteers in high places.
    , @Sam194275
    Please don't insist that Obama or the people of the USA have anything to do with any of this. Obama is a proven selection, his wife a man, his function in the Government, a front. All of this, like for example but not limited to, two world wars, all of this is coming out of the residence of the eldest son of the Rothschild clan, presently, residing in England, I think. Rather or not the worker bee's working their brains to the nub, who develop all these plans and counter plans still require authorization from the eldest son, is a mystery to me, however, nothing goes on except he knows and okays it. Knowing that Evelyn Rothschild has a physical presence such that he would require of the eldest to show him respect and probably confide in him as well, as well as with the other Rothschild's in the know, close to the throne, it is possibly a family affair. Sidebar: I heard Jordan Maxwell the other night on a show on the Internet talking about he didn't think Jews were the problem in the world today that it must be the Catholic Church, the Christians, rich as they are, that are causing all the problems. The Family of Mayer Amschel Bauer, i.e., the Rothschild's, can buy and sell the Catholic Organization and the Catholic's, taking a loss every time and never miss the money. The army of Rothschild is the Jewish people, their headquarters are the Synagogues, their war, a war against every other living thing on Earth not Jewish -- did I hear Muslims, well, they ain't got a thing on the Jews. Both, ordered by their gods to destroy all people not like them or the Earth, which ever comes first. As if the Russians, white people in general, haven't suffered enough! The people of Ukraine, have they ever been put through it by the Jews, Jews, who like to call themselves Communist, but, this is just a coverup too. Murderer's, are what they are, and if the people of Ukraine don't get the sob's out of their country they will suffer again, and more, more, than ever before. Take a lesson from the history of Europe, either get them out of the country or suffer the fate their religion has in store for you.
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  4. john cronk says: • Website

    Shortly after Yanukovich abdicated his position and flew the coop and generic Russian guys started showing up in Crimea I began commenting on articles about the subject in The Economist. I thought then, and have the temerity to think still, that I had a better solution to the situation than letting things play out per usual.
    I wish I had saved my comments (and per your example in future I am going to, by way of a google document whenever I comment to a magazine, blog, etc)., but the jist of what I said is this.
    I prefaced my remarks by a prediction that both Russia, the new Kiev government and the West were going to look alternately belligerent, foolish, weak, indecisive and dangerous as the situation became more and more messy. I proposed avoiding this by doing the following:

    Russia, the new protester government in Kiev, the EU and America should jointly meet and come up with a proposal to allow the citizens of Ukraine to vote on whether to split the country into two independent nations along the Dnieper. Built into the proposal would be provisions for the free movement of goods and people across the new border for an extended period of time to allow for economic and political adjustments.
    Criticism of the idea was mostly limited to my supposed ignorance of the fact that much of Ukraine’s heavy industry lies in the eastern half of the country, but I hadn’t failed to consider that. Yes, there would be major economic adjustments, but what is worse about that hypothetical situation than the current one? While some Russophiles would happily hammer away on their new manhole covers bound for Moscow, meanwhile Kiev could lean to the West, and get assistance to plow ahead into the future. Eventually, the kleptocracy in Russia is going to look more and more pathetic. Even Germany (France managed it) could some day wake up to the benefits of clean nuclear power and begin to wean itself from Russia’s gas teat. In the meantime, there’s no particular reason that an independent East Ukraine would be more of a threat with regard to gas reductions to Europpe than obtains in the current, or former, situation.

    West Ukraine and East Ukraine, bordered by the Dnieper, a natural dividing line both physically and culturally, would each have its own Black Sea coast, and an eastern-leaning East Ukraine would have obviated the need for Crimea to secede. Also, West Ukraine’s Black Sea access would abut Moldova, providing a nice buffer between that tiny nation and East Ukraine/Crimea and perhaps someday encouraging its westernization. (ignoring problematic Transdnistria for the moment)

    Why would the West have liked this arrangement? It avoids all the confrontational stuff with Russia while not having much if any of a downside, and makes it much easier to help Kiev.

    Why would Russia have acquiesced to it? At the outset of this kerfuffle, Russia didn’t need or want to occupy Ukraine, or even East Ukraine. All it needed was the status quo, Ukraine as a pliable buffer state between Russia and the West, with an easily manipulated head of government. It could have had that with a new East Ukraine government.

    The protesters changed the existing equation, and rightly so, but on the other hand the protest government in Kiev needs to try to subdue and win the favor of the Russophiles in East Ukraine like they need a hole in the head. If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
    In the meantime – importantly – there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.

    But implementing this would have taken real leadership and statesmanship, instead of the usual politics as usual and gut level response to each day’s latest crisis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
    Yanukovych didn't abdicate his position.

    Also, your comment implies that the west would prefer to avoid a confrontation with Russia, and to 'help Kiev' (whatever that means). You are assuming facts not in evidence.
    , @Jon0815

    If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
     
    Splitting Ukraine in two might be a good idea, but there is no valid reason to assume the western portion would do better than the east. Belarus, which has about the same population as eastern Ukraine, has done pretty well while economically linked with Russia, averaging about 5% GDP growth from 2000-2015 (during the same period Russia's GDP growth averaged 4.2%, and the EU's about 1.5%). Also, although both Russia and the EU are much wealthier than Ukraine per capita, an independent eastern Ukraine could probably join Russia's customs union almost immediately, whereas the EU would not be in any hurry to admit western Ukraine (a literally Third World country with a population of over 25 million).
    , @annamaria
    "In the meantime – importantly – there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life."

    But it was exactly the attempt at federalization that made Eastern Ukraine a target of State Dept.
    John Owen Brennan, a former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, came to Kiev (secretly) on the eve of the beginning of shelling the civilians in Eastern Ukraine by Kievan junta:
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/04/15/ukraine-secret-recipe-brennan-kiev.html. It was the manifestation of democracy in Eastern Ukraine that has enraged the Obama admin. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-14/white-house-admits-cia-director-brennan-was-secretly-kiev
    The US ziocons needed a real civil war between Ukraine and Russian federation; instead, the war profiteers and indispensable maniacs of total domination have got a slow-going conflict with "just" some 10.000 killed (up to date). The US deciders hoped for another Syria but got a financial drain, a 2%-approved Yats, the new transit routes that detour Ukraine (and Baltic states) thus denying them Russian transit fees, and a chocolate king that is making his best profits in Russia (no kidding). Add to that one million of economic migrants from Ukraine to Poland (see the conflicts between west Ukrainians and Polish citizens, https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-13/world-war-ii-isn-t-quite-over-for-poland-and-ukraine) and other states west of Kiev and one million of economic migrants from Ukraine to Russia. Ukraine is going through the process of being raped, abused, robbed, and then left for financial vultures to be finished.

    , @Philip Owen
    The population East of the Dneipr is not majority separatist.
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  5. @john cronk
    Shortly after Yanukovich abdicated his position and flew the coop and generic Russian guys started showing up in Crimea I began commenting on articles about the subject in The Economist. I thought then, and have the temerity to think still, that I had a better solution to the situation than letting things play out per usual.
    I wish I had saved my comments (and per your example in future I am going to, by way of a google document whenever I comment to a magazine, blog, etc)., but the jist of what I said is this.
    I prefaced my remarks by a prediction that both Russia, the new Kiev government and the West were going to look alternately belligerent, foolish, weak, indecisive and dangerous as the situation became more and more messy. I proposed avoiding this by doing the following:


    Russia, the new protester government in Kiev, the EU and America should jointly meet and come up with a proposal to allow the citizens of Ukraine to vote on whether to split the country into two independent nations along the Dnieper. Built into the proposal would be provisions for the free movement of goods and people across the new border for an extended period of time to allow for economic and political adjustments.
    Criticism of the idea was mostly limited to my supposed ignorance of the fact that much of Ukraine’s heavy industry lies in the eastern half of the country, but I hadn’t failed to consider that. Yes, there would be major economic adjustments, but what is worse about that hypothetical situation than the current one? While some Russophiles would happily hammer away on their new manhole covers bound for Moscow, meanwhile Kiev could lean to the West, and get assistance to plow ahead into the future. Eventually, the kleptocracy in Russia is going to look more and more pathetic. Even Germany (France managed it) could some day wake up to the benefits of clean nuclear power and begin to wean itself from Russia’s gas teat. In the meantime, there’s no particular reason that an independent East Ukraine would be more of a threat with regard to gas reductions to Europpe than obtains in the current, or former, situation.


    West Ukraine and East Ukraine, bordered by the Dnieper, a natural dividing line both physically and culturally, would each have its own Black Sea coast, and an eastern-leaning East Ukraine would have obviated the need for Crimea to secede. Also, West Ukraine’s Black Sea access would abut Moldova, providing a nice buffer between that tiny nation and East Ukraine/Crimea and perhaps someday encouraging its westernization. (ignoring problematic Transdnistria for the moment)


    Why would the West have liked this arrangement? It avoids all the confrontational stuff with Russia while not having much if any of a downside, and makes it much easier to help Kiev.

    Why would Russia have acquiesced to it? At the outset of this kerfuffle, Russia didn’t need or want to occupy Ukraine, or even East Ukraine. All it needed was the status quo, Ukraine as a pliable buffer state between Russia and the West, with an easily manipulated head of government. It could have had that with a new East Ukraine government.


    The protesters changed the existing equation, and rightly so, but on the other hand the protest government in Kiev needs to try to subdue and win the favor of the Russophiles in East Ukraine like they need a hole in the head. If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
    In the meantime - importantly - there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.


    But implementing this would have taken real leadership and statesmanship, instead of the usual politics as usual and gut level response to each day’s latest crisis.

    Yanukovych didn’t abdicate his position.

    Also, your comment implies that the west would prefer to avoid a confrontation with Russia, and to ‘help Kiev’ (whatever that means). You are assuming facts not in evidence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Yes, he did abdicate his position. He ran fort mother Russia when he was going to be brought to book for his crimes on the Maidan. I know that's inconvenient for your pro-Russian narrative, but that's how things work in the real world.
    , @Quartermaster
    "does anybody still wonder why I call this regime “Ukronazi” and not “Ukrainian”?"

    I've never wondered why you use the term. It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda. Either you are man with with a very loose attachment to reality, or you are one of the grossest liars alive. If you want a Nazi, Putin is quite available and using the same sort of tactics perfected by Hitler's Nazi regime. Dr. Goebbels is also smiling.
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  6. The Scalpel says: • Website

    The problem with your proposal is that it will never happen. The Ukrainians will never allow it. You might as well suggest a peace conference between Batman, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus.

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    • Replies: @dahoit
    Sounds like a holiday movie;Alert Zollywood.
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  7. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Your blog has made it to the list of about 200 sites serving as Russian propaganda tools and spreading fake news published in non-propaganda real news Washington Post, Saker.

    AmRen is there too.
    And so are the Ron Paul Institute and Zero Hedge.

    RT and Sputnik are there of course.
    See the coincidence: one or two days ago the European Union agreed Sputnik and RT are “propaganda sites” (eligible for being banned?).

    Like they say, they are throwing the mask, which you can see as good or bad, and probably is both.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeff Davis
    The world's common folk are wising up. Thank the internet for that. Fred Reed explained it in his last column:

    http://fredoneverything.org/uniquely-talented-only-the-democrats-could-have-lost-to-trump/

    Where he states, oh so cogently,


    All the corporate outlets were furiously against him, apparently assuming that their opprobrium would crush the upstart. Were they not CBS and NBC and the Washington Post, respected news outlets that people would believe and trust?

    Well, no, actually.

    And so the talking heads chuckled and sneered and utterly underestimated and got handed their ass. They should have registered as lobbyists for the Donald.
     

    ***They should have registered as lobbyists for the Donald.***

    Now the establishment propagandists are at it again, and just as breathtakingly clueless as ever. By creating the ProporNot website, and promoting it -- just like they promoted The Donald -- in the WaPo, they are stumping for precisely those online sources -- the non-corporate alternative -- where the truth is to be found, or, if not precisely the truth, then at least the other side of the story. And the ever more sophisticated online citizenry are happy to go to school on the new digital, open-source, people-powered information stream, and delighted to be offered this little "guidebook" showing them where to go to hone there skill at mining for the truth.

    Sweet.

    , @anonymous

    Your blog has made it to the list of about 200 sites serving as Russian propaganda tools and spreading fake news published in non-propaganda real news Washington Post, Saker.
     
    Hmmm, sounds like the much maligned 'McCarthyism' of the 50's. 'We have a list here of hundreds of Russian agents, knowing and unwitting, operating here'. Funny how the people who would be in the forefront of denouncing 'McCarthyism' now practice it. Yup, the Russians are behind everything, spread the news.
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  8. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

    Read More
  9. The problem is that virtually everyone thinks that their idea of how to organize society is the only way or the only correct way and they are 100% for using force to enforce it. Stupid pathetic people thinking that their ideas are not those of animals, but ideas of gods.

    This is the basis of the never-ending death and destruction of government and the sorry fate of mankind.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Unka Buck
    Geez. Could it be that our notion of religion, or our beatific vision - triggered as it might have been in the days of Alley Oop, our cave dwelling ancestor, by having a dead body to deal with one day - is enhanced somehow when we come into the presence of putrefaction? Along with joyous noises do you think the Lord might also appreciate us raising unto Him the smell of somebody elses' rotting corpses?
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  10. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

    Read More
  11. The Saker implies that the policies of a new Trump administration will be far superior in regard to the Russian Federation than those of the Obama administration or any Clinton administration that might have won office.

    This is jumping the gun.

    Señor Trump is a deal-maker and has already telegraphed what some of these deals with Russia might be like.

    The likelihood is that they will be unacceptable.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  12. Jon0815 says:
    @john cronk
    Shortly after Yanukovich abdicated his position and flew the coop and generic Russian guys started showing up in Crimea I began commenting on articles about the subject in The Economist. I thought then, and have the temerity to think still, that I had a better solution to the situation than letting things play out per usual.
    I wish I had saved my comments (and per your example in future I am going to, by way of a google document whenever I comment to a magazine, blog, etc)., but the jist of what I said is this.
    I prefaced my remarks by a prediction that both Russia, the new Kiev government and the West were going to look alternately belligerent, foolish, weak, indecisive and dangerous as the situation became more and more messy. I proposed avoiding this by doing the following:


    Russia, the new protester government in Kiev, the EU and America should jointly meet and come up with a proposal to allow the citizens of Ukraine to vote on whether to split the country into two independent nations along the Dnieper. Built into the proposal would be provisions for the free movement of goods and people across the new border for an extended period of time to allow for economic and political adjustments.
    Criticism of the idea was mostly limited to my supposed ignorance of the fact that much of Ukraine’s heavy industry lies in the eastern half of the country, but I hadn’t failed to consider that. Yes, there would be major economic adjustments, but what is worse about that hypothetical situation than the current one? While some Russophiles would happily hammer away on their new manhole covers bound for Moscow, meanwhile Kiev could lean to the West, and get assistance to plow ahead into the future. Eventually, the kleptocracy in Russia is going to look more and more pathetic. Even Germany (France managed it) could some day wake up to the benefits of clean nuclear power and begin to wean itself from Russia’s gas teat. In the meantime, there’s no particular reason that an independent East Ukraine would be more of a threat with regard to gas reductions to Europpe than obtains in the current, or former, situation.


    West Ukraine and East Ukraine, bordered by the Dnieper, a natural dividing line both physically and culturally, would each have its own Black Sea coast, and an eastern-leaning East Ukraine would have obviated the need for Crimea to secede. Also, West Ukraine’s Black Sea access would abut Moldova, providing a nice buffer between that tiny nation and East Ukraine/Crimea and perhaps someday encouraging its westernization. (ignoring problematic Transdnistria for the moment)


    Why would the West have liked this arrangement? It avoids all the confrontational stuff with Russia while not having much if any of a downside, and makes it much easier to help Kiev.

    Why would Russia have acquiesced to it? At the outset of this kerfuffle, Russia didn’t need or want to occupy Ukraine, or even East Ukraine. All it needed was the status quo, Ukraine as a pliable buffer state between Russia and the West, with an easily manipulated head of government. It could have had that with a new East Ukraine government.


    The protesters changed the existing equation, and rightly so, but on the other hand the protest government in Kiev needs to try to subdue and win the favor of the Russophiles in East Ukraine like they need a hole in the head. If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
    In the meantime - importantly - there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.


    But implementing this would have taken real leadership and statesmanship, instead of the usual politics as usual and gut level response to each day’s latest crisis.

    If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.

    Splitting Ukraine in two might be a good idea, but there is no valid reason to assume the western portion would do better than the east. Belarus, which has about the same population as eastern Ukraine, has done pretty well while economically linked with Russia, averaging about 5% GDP growth from 2000-2015 (during the same period Russia’s GDP growth averaged 4.2%, and the EU’s about 1.5%). Also, although both Russia and the EU are much wealthier than Ukraine per capita, an independent eastern Ukraine could probably join Russia’s customs union almost immediately, whereas the EU would not be in any hurry to admit western Ukraine (a literally Third World country with a population of over 25 million).

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  13. OT but in your general sphere of interest

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Egypt-shifts-to-open-support-for-Assad-regime-in-Syrian-civil-war-473693

    “Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has moved to open support of the Syrian army in that country’s civil war, risking a worsening of relations with key ally Saudi Arabia, the main opponent of the regime of President Bashar Assad and backer of the rebels.

    In an interview aired Tuesday with Portuguese broadcaster RTP, Sisi shifted Egypt’s position from unofficial support of the Assad regime to overt, official backing, in effect offering a further boost to Damascus which is counting also on a shift in its favor by the incoming Trump administration. Sisi said Syrian government forces were ”best positioned to combat terrorism and restore stability” in Syria, where a civil war that has taken more than 400,000 lives is in its sixth year.”

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  14. […] This article was written for the Unz Review […]

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  15. “The SBU hides one single artillery piece in a town just north of the Crimean-Ukrainian border and then begins to shell, at night, of course, Russian military positions or town, in northern Crimea.”

    You send in a squad of Spetsnaz to disapear the gun and its support troops … as if they were never there. That is what these guys, like ours, are for.

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  16. annamaria says:
    @Mao Cheng Ji
    You're right about them desperately trying to provoke Russia: https://www.rt.com/news/368181-ukraine-crimea-firing-exercise/

    The question is: are they doing it on their own, or are they being directed by their mad neocon puppet-masters in the Obama administration?

    Most likely, this is an affair of converging interests of the US ziocons and the local Ukrainian profiteers in high places.

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  17. annamaria says:
    @john cronk
    Shortly after Yanukovich abdicated his position and flew the coop and generic Russian guys started showing up in Crimea I began commenting on articles about the subject in The Economist. I thought then, and have the temerity to think still, that I had a better solution to the situation than letting things play out per usual.
    I wish I had saved my comments (and per your example in future I am going to, by way of a google document whenever I comment to a magazine, blog, etc)., but the jist of what I said is this.
    I prefaced my remarks by a prediction that both Russia, the new Kiev government and the West were going to look alternately belligerent, foolish, weak, indecisive and dangerous as the situation became more and more messy. I proposed avoiding this by doing the following:


    Russia, the new protester government in Kiev, the EU and America should jointly meet and come up with a proposal to allow the citizens of Ukraine to vote on whether to split the country into two independent nations along the Dnieper. Built into the proposal would be provisions for the free movement of goods and people across the new border for an extended period of time to allow for economic and political adjustments.
    Criticism of the idea was mostly limited to my supposed ignorance of the fact that much of Ukraine’s heavy industry lies in the eastern half of the country, but I hadn’t failed to consider that. Yes, there would be major economic adjustments, but what is worse about that hypothetical situation than the current one? While some Russophiles would happily hammer away on their new manhole covers bound for Moscow, meanwhile Kiev could lean to the West, and get assistance to plow ahead into the future. Eventually, the kleptocracy in Russia is going to look more and more pathetic. Even Germany (France managed it) could some day wake up to the benefits of clean nuclear power and begin to wean itself from Russia’s gas teat. In the meantime, there’s no particular reason that an independent East Ukraine would be more of a threat with regard to gas reductions to Europpe than obtains in the current, or former, situation.


    West Ukraine and East Ukraine, bordered by the Dnieper, a natural dividing line both physically and culturally, would each have its own Black Sea coast, and an eastern-leaning East Ukraine would have obviated the need for Crimea to secede. Also, West Ukraine’s Black Sea access would abut Moldova, providing a nice buffer between that tiny nation and East Ukraine/Crimea and perhaps someday encouraging its westernization. (ignoring problematic Transdnistria for the moment)


    Why would the West have liked this arrangement? It avoids all the confrontational stuff with Russia while not having much if any of a downside, and makes it much easier to help Kiev.

    Why would Russia have acquiesced to it? At the outset of this kerfuffle, Russia didn’t need or want to occupy Ukraine, or even East Ukraine. All it needed was the status quo, Ukraine as a pliable buffer state between Russia and the West, with an easily manipulated head of government. It could have had that with a new East Ukraine government.


    The protesters changed the existing equation, and rightly so, but on the other hand the protest government in Kiev needs to try to subdue and win the favor of the Russophiles in East Ukraine like they need a hole in the head. If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
    In the meantime - importantly - there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.


    But implementing this would have taken real leadership and statesmanship, instead of the usual politics as usual and gut level response to each day’s latest crisis.

    “In the meantime – importantly – there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.”

    But it was exactly the attempt at federalization that made Eastern Ukraine a target of State Dept.
    John Owen Brennan, a former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, came to Kiev (secretly) on the eve of the beginning of shelling the civilians in Eastern Ukraine by Kievan junta:
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/04/15/ukraine-secret-recipe-brennan-kiev.html. It was the manifestation of democracy in Eastern Ukraine that has enraged the Obama admin. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-14/white-house-admits-cia-director-brennan-was-secretly-kiev
    The US ziocons needed a real civil war between Ukraine and Russian federation; instead, the war profiteers and indispensable maniacs of total domination have got a slow-going conflict with “just” some 10.000 killed (up to date). The US deciders hoped for another Syria but got a financial drain, a 2%-approved Yats, the new transit routes that detour Ukraine (and Baltic states) thus denying them Russian transit fees, and a chocolate king that is making his best profits in Russia (no kidding). Add to that one million of economic migrants from Ukraine to Poland (see the conflicts between west Ukrainians and Polish citizens, https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-13/world-war-ii-isn-t-quite-over-for-poland-and-ukraine) and other states west of Kiev and one million of economic migrants from Ukraine to Russia. Ukraine is going through the process of being raped, abused, robbed, and then left for financial vultures to be finished.

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  18. dahoit says:
    @The Scalpel
    The problem with your proposal is that it will never happen. The Ukrainians will never allow it. You might as well suggest a peace conference between Batman, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus.

    Sounds like a holiday movie;Alert Zollywood.

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  19. @Anonymous
    Your blog has made it to the list of about 200 sites serving as Russian propaganda tools and spreading fake news published in non-propaganda real news Washington Post, Saker.

    AmRen is there too.
    And so are the Ron Paul Institute and Zero Hedge.

    RT and Sputnik are there of course.
    See the coincidence: one or two days ago the European Union agreed Sputnik and RT are "propaganda sites" (eligible for being banned?).

    Like they say, they are throwing the mask, which you can see as good or bad, and probably is both.

    The world’s common folk are wising up. Thank the internet for that. Fred Reed explained it in his last column:

    http://fredoneverything.org/uniquely-talented-only-the-democrats-could-have-lost-to-trump/

    Where he states, oh so cogently,

    All the corporate outlets were furiously against him, apparently assuming that their opprobrium would crush the upstart. Were they not CBS and NBC and the Washington Post, respected news outlets that people would believe and trust?

    Well, no, actually.

    And so the talking heads chuckled and sneered and utterly underestimated and got handed their ass. They should have registered as lobbyists for the Donald.

    ***They should have registered as lobbyists for the Donald.***

    Now the establishment propagandists are at it again, and just as breathtakingly clueless as ever. By creating the ProporNot website, and promoting it — just like they promoted The Donald — in the WaPo, they are stumping for precisely those online sources — the non-corporate alternative — where the truth is to be found, or, if not precisely the truth, then at least the other side of the story. And the ever more sophisticated online citizenry are happy to go to school on the new digital, open-source, people-powered information stream, and delighted to be offered this little “guidebook” showing them where to go to hone there skill at mining for the truth.

    Sweet.

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  20. […] What Are the Ukronazis Up to in Crimea? – by The Saker, Unz.com – “What is remarkable here is that the Ukronazis kidnapped these two men in broad daylight in an location which was clearly under video monitoring, and that they then showed one of the hostages with a clear sign of the beating he received. No matter how incompetent the SBU is, they are not so incompetent as to not realize the fantastically provocative nature of their actions. This was an absolutely deliberate provocation whose goal was to get some kind of Russian reaction, either in Crimea or somewhere else… What were they really hoping for?” […]

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  21. Boris N says:

    It has been long suggested that in the Russian political circus there is one effective party with two complementary wings: United Ukraine #1 and United Ukraine #2. The first are pro-Western pro-Ukrainian Russophobic “liberals” (the “Echo of Moscow” and “TV Rain” qahal) and the second are the actual ruling Kremlin class also falsely known as United Russia; Kiev being United Ukraine’s official public subsidiary. So given that disposition the entire conflict seems less illogical and mysterious. The said parties are just playing some sort of wicked game. But the losers will always be common Russians and Russia, that’s the goal of the game.

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  22. Rehmat says:

    Dear, dear Saker ….. Ukronazis are not doing anything worse than Israelnazis are doing in Ukraine…

    In December 2014, the Israeli newspaper The Jerusalem Post reported that Alexander Zakharchenko’s foreign minister Aleksandr Kofman is Jewish and a former counselor in a Jewish Agency for Israel youth program.

    Pinchas Vishedksi, the rabbi of Donetsk and an internally displaced person, told The Jerusalem Post that Kofman is fully Jewish according to Halacha.

    In a recent interview with a Russian Jewish media outlet, Aleksandr Kofman boasted that several dozen of former soldiers from Israel Occupation Force (IOF) have joined as mercenaries with Russian-backed separatists in their occupation of eastern Ukraine.

    Last year, ex-Israeli soldier Ina Levitan, 38, a Tel Aviv resident who was born in Baku, Azerbaijan, told Jerusalem Post that she had been in the conflict zone near the city of Lugansk since late 2014. She wrote an open letter to the Israeli Communist Party, in which she said she is not planning to enter the conflict, but is eager to fight against the fascist, pro-Nazis and oligarchs.

    Ironically, Ukraine’s president Petro Poroshenko and several of his regime members are Jewish oligarchs. In 2014, Poroshenko announced a plan to turn Ukraine into the Jewish Promised Land.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/09/21/putins-israeli-soldiers/

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  23. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Yanukovych didn't abdicate his position.

    Also, your comment implies that the west would prefer to avoid a confrontation with Russia, and to 'help Kiev' (whatever that means). You are assuming facts not in evidence.

    Yes, he did abdicate his position. He ran fort mother Russia when he was going to be brought to book for his crimes on the Maidan. I know that’s inconvenient for your pro-Russian narrative, but that’s how things work in the real world.

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  24. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Yanukovych didn't abdicate his position.

    Also, your comment implies that the west would prefer to avoid a confrontation with Russia, and to 'help Kiev' (whatever that means). You are assuming facts not in evidence.

    “does anybody still wonder why I call this regime “Ukronazi” and not “Ukrainian”?”

    I’ve never wondered why you use the term. It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda. Either you are man with with a very loose attachment to reality, or you are one of the grossest liars alive. If you want a Nazi, Putin is quite available and using the same sort of tactics perfected by Hitler’s Nazi regime. Dr. Goebbels is also smiling.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    "Dr. Goebbels is also smiling."
    Please refute the US State Department acknowledgement of the neo-Nazis' presence in Ukrainian government that was formed on "recommendations" of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

    "It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda." Does the truth hurts so much that using the word "propaganda" is the only respite? The hysterics on the allegedly omnipotent Russian propaganda affecting the allegedly meek US citizenry is getting a proper response from real American journalists (as compared to the presstituting MSM): http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/journalists_cry_foul_as_washington_post_publishes_20161127

    , @annamaria
    http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2016/11/27/1011511trump-the-great-paul-craig-roberts/
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  25. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster
    "does anybody still wonder why I call this regime “Ukronazi” and not “Ukrainian”?"

    I've never wondered why you use the term. It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda. Either you are man with with a very loose attachment to reality, or you are one of the grossest liars alive. If you want a Nazi, Putin is quite available and using the same sort of tactics perfected by Hitler's Nazi regime. Dr. Goebbels is also smiling.

    “Dr. Goebbels is also smiling.”
    Please refute the US State Department acknowledgement of the neo-Nazis’ presence in Ukrainian government that was formed on “recommendations” of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

    “It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda.” Does the truth hurts so much that using the word “propaganda” is the only respite? The hysterics on the allegedly omnipotent Russian propaganda affecting the allegedly meek US citizenry is getting a proper response from real American journalists (as compared to the presstituting MSM): http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/journalists_cry_foul_as_washington_post_publishes_20161127

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    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    There's nothing to "refute." Try getting your info from reliable sites instead of leftist propaganda sites.

    Saker is simply spewing Russian propaganda. There were no "terrorist" units sent into Crimea by Ukraine. Putin's bunch thrives on disinformatsiya. It's all in the KGB repertoire which the FSB inherited.
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  26. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster
    "does anybody still wonder why I call this regime “Ukronazi” and not “Ukrainian”?"

    I've never wondered why you use the term. It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda. Either you are man with with a very loose attachment to reality, or you are one of the grossest liars alive. If you want a Nazi, Putin is quite available and using the same sort of tactics perfected by Hitler's Nazi regime. Dr. Goebbels is also smiling.
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    • Replies: @Quartermaster

    "The oligarchs are organizing their liberal progressive front groups to disrupt Trump’s inauguration in an effort to continue the attempt to delegitimize Trump the way the paid Maidan protesters were used in Kiev to delegitimize the elected Ukrainian government."
     
    emphasis mine

    The quote above is a good example of the overheated trash that Roberts has been posting for years. As a result, only the gullible listen to the man. Yanukovich delegitimized himself when he went back on the EU association and was moving to betray the country to Putin.
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  27. @annamaria
    "Dr. Goebbels is also smiling."
    Please refute the US State Department acknowledgement of the neo-Nazis' presence in Ukrainian government that was formed on "recommendations" of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

    "It simply fits your narrative of pro-Russian propaganda." Does the truth hurts so much that using the word "propaganda" is the only respite? The hysterics on the allegedly omnipotent Russian propaganda affecting the allegedly meek US citizenry is getting a proper response from real American journalists (as compared to the presstituting MSM): http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/journalists_cry_foul_as_washington_post_publishes_20161127

    There’s nothing to “refute.” Try getting your info from reliable sites instead of leftist propaganda sites.

    Saker is simply spewing Russian propaganda. There were no “terrorist” units sent into Crimea by Ukraine. Putin’s bunch thrives on disinformatsiya. It’s all in the KGB repertoire which the FSB inherited.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Please choose your words carefully. Do you mean, the US Congress represents "leftist propaganda sites?" - "House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine" http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/
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  28. @annamaria
    http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2016/11/27/1011511trump-the-great-paul-craig-roberts/

    “The oligarchs are organizing their liberal progressive front groups to disrupt Trump’s inauguration in an effort to continue the attempt to delegitimize Trump the way the paid Maidan protesters were used in Kiev to delegitimize the elected Ukrainian government.

    emphasis mine

    The quote above is a good example of the overheated trash that Roberts has been posting for years. As a result, only the gullible listen to the man. Yanukovich delegitimized himself when he went back on the EU association and was moving to betray the country to Putin.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    You are deflecting from the main point: The current Ukrainian government includes some leading Ukrainian neo-Nazis; the whole Maidan affair had been contaminated with the involvement of neo-Nazis: "It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US." http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/
    And since you have decided to introduce the name of the corrupt Yanukovitch into the discussion, pray tell us about the current situation re corruption in Ukraine. After Ukraine had got its "independence" from Russian Federation in 2014 (and embraced Mrs. Nuland-Kagan plans for Ukrainians) things did indeed change: "Ukraine is 130th out of 168 countries ranked by Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index 2015." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine
    "In a country where the average monthly income is roughly $200, revelations that elected officials have personal holdings worth hundreds of millions of dollars in real estate and eccentric items, like Fabergé eggs, Japanese art, and even a ticket to space, are now causing a public uproar. In the four days since the database went public, many Ukrainian voters and Western allies have been left questioning the post-revolutionary government’s commitment to a political system defined by personal enrichment." http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/04/ukraine-corruption-declaration-poroshenko-clinton-trump-russia-oligarch/
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/23/ukraine-corruption-bigotry-western-support-russia
    , @annamaria
    Getting back to the "delegitimization" of the previous, lawfully elected officials in Ukraine: http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/country-profiles/ukraine
    Ukraine Corruption Report:
    "A combination of rampant corruption, market volatility and political instability in Ukraine represents major business risks for foreign investors. Bribery and facilitation payments are widespread among Ukrainian public officials, severely complicating business registration and trade procedures for international companies. Burdensome regulations and favouritism impede fair competition. Ukraine's public procurement lacks transparency due to vague regulations, monopolistic practices and the exemption of state actors from transparency and competition requirements. Ukraine's Constitution states the president is not allowed to perform any kind of paid professional activity or to be a member of a board of directors at any corporation that aims to generate profit, but President Poroshenko owns a chocolate corporation [in Russia! for all other places] that saw profits grow by 900% from 2013 to 2014 (Information, Mar. 2015), suggesting extensive corruption and embezzlement by top-level Ukrainian officials."

    The New York Times editorial: Ukraine’s Unyielding Corruption: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/opinion/ukraines-unyielding-corruption.html
    "Corruption has been pervasive in Ukraine since independence, fed by close-knit ties between politicians and oligarchs and a weak justice system. The protests in 2014 that led to the removal of President Viktor Yanukovych were largely fueled by popular fury at his monumental corruption and abuse of power. Yet his overthrow has yet to show results."
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  29. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Your blog has made it to the list of about 200 sites serving as Russian propaganda tools and spreading fake news published in non-propaganda real news Washington Post, Saker.

    AmRen is there too.
    And so are the Ron Paul Institute and Zero Hedge.

    RT and Sputnik are there of course.
    See the coincidence: one or two days ago the European Union agreed Sputnik and RT are "propaganda sites" (eligible for being banned?).

    Like they say, they are throwing the mask, which you can see as good or bad, and probably is both.

    Your blog has made it to the list of about 200 sites serving as Russian propaganda tools and spreading fake news published in non-propaganda real news Washington Post, Saker.

    Hmmm, sounds like the much maligned ‘McCarthyism’ of the 50′s. ‘We have a list here of hundreds of Russian agents, knowing and unwitting, operating here’. Funny how the people who would be in the forefront of denouncing ‘McCarthyism’ now practice it. Yup, the Russians are behind everything, spread the news.

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  30. Sam194275 says:
    @Mao Cheng Ji
    You're right about them desperately trying to provoke Russia: https://www.rt.com/news/368181-ukraine-crimea-firing-exercise/

    The question is: are they doing it on their own, or are they being directed by their mad neocon puppet-masters in the Obama administration?

    Please don’t insist that Obama or the people of the USA have anything to do with any of this. Obama is a proven selection, his wife a man, his function in the Government, a front. All of this, like for example but not limited to, two world wars, all of this is coming out of the residence of the eldest son of the Rothschild clan, presently, residing in England, I think. Rather or not the worker bee’s working their brains to the nub, who develop all these plans and counter plans still require authorization from the eldest son, is a mystery to me, however, nothing goes on except he knows and okays it. Knowing that Evelyn Rothschild has a physical presence such that he would require of the eldest to show him respect and probably confide in him as well, as well as with the other Rothschild’s in the know, close to the throne, it is possibly a family affair. Sidebar: I heard Jordan Maxwell the other night on a show on the Internet talking about he didn’t think Jews were the problem in the world today that it must be the Catholic Church, the Christians, rich as they are, that are causing all the problems. The Family of Mayer Amschel Bauer, i.e., the Rothschild’s, can buy and sell the Catholic Organization and the Catholic’s, taking a loss every time and never miss the money. The army of Rothschild is the Jewish people, their headquarters are the Synagogues, their war, a war against every other living thing on Earth not Jewish — did I hear Muslims, well, they ain’t got a thing on the Jews. Both, ordered by their gods to destroy all people not like them or the Earth, which ever comes first. As if the Russians, white people in general, haven’t suffered enough! The people of Ukraine, have they ever been put through it by the Jews, Jews, who like to call themselves Communist, but, this is just a coverup too. Murderer’s, are what they are, and if the people of Ukraine don’t get the sob’s out of their country they will suffer again, and more, more, than ever before. Take a lesson from the history of Europe, either get them out of the country or suffer the fate their religion has in store for you.

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  31. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I thought Saker didn’t think the Ukrainians were responsible for Motorola?

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  32. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster
    There's nothing to "refute." Try getting your info from reliable sites instead of leftist propaganda sites.

    Saker is simply spewing Russian propaganda. There were no "terrorist" units sent into Crimea by Ukraine. Putin's bunch thrives on disinformatsiya. It's all in the KGB repertoire which the FSB inherited.

    Please choose your words carefully. Do you mean, the US Congress represents “leftist propaganda sites?” – “House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine” http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/

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  33. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster

    "The oligarchs are organizing their liberal progressive front groups to disrupt Trump’s inauguration in an effort to continue the attempt to delegitimize Trump the way the paid Maidan protesters were used in Kiev to delegitimize the elected Ukrainian government."
     
    emphasis mine

    The quote above is a good example of the overheated trash that Roberts has been posting for years. As a result, only the gullible listen to the man. Yanukovich delegitimized himself when he went back on the EU association and was moving to betray the country to Putin.

    You are deflecting from the main point: The current Ukrainian government includes some leading Ukrainian neo-Nazis; the whole Maidan affair had been contaminated with the involvement of neo-Nazis: “It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US.” http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/
    And since you have decided to introduce the name of the corrupt Yanukovitch into the discussion, pray tell us about the current situation re corruption in Ukraine. After Ukraine had got its “independence” from Russian Federation in 2014 (and embraced Mrs. Nuland-Kagan plans for Ukrainians) things did indeed change: “Ukraine is 130th out of 168 countries ranked by Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index 2015.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine
    “In a country where the average monthly income is roughly $200, revelations that elected officials have personal holdings worth hundreds of millions of dollars in real estate and eccentric items, like Fabergé eggs, Japanese art, and even a ticket to space, are now causing a public uproar. In the four days since the database went public, many Ukrainian voters and Western allies have been left questioning the post-revolutionary government’s commitment to a political system defined by personal enrichment.” http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/04/ukraine-corruption-declaration-poroshenko-clinton-trump-russia-oligarch/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/23/ukraine-corruption-bigotry-western-support-russia

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    You are arguing with an idiot. You write good, interesting posts so don't waste time on this delusional clod/troll. May as well drive nails into wood using forehead than try to influence Quartermentality.
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  34. annamaria says:
    @Quartermaster

    "The oligarchs are organizing their liberal progressive front groups to disrupt Trump’s inauguration in an effort to continue the attempt to delegitimize Trump the way the paid Maidan protesters were used in Kiev to delegitimize the elected Ukrainian government."
     
    emphasis mine

    The quote above is a good example of the overheated trash that Roberts has been posting for years. As a result, only the gullible listen to the man. Yanukovich delegitimized himself when he went back on the EU association and was moving to betray the country to Putin.

    Getting back to the “delegitimization” of the previous, lawfully elected officials in Ukraine: http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/country-profiles/ukraine
    Ukraine Corruption Report:
    “A combination of rampant corruption, market volatility and political instability in Ukraine represents major business risks for foreign investors. Bribery and facilitation payments are widespread among Ukrainian public officials, severely complicating business registration and trade procedures for international companies. Burdensome regulations and favouritism impede fair competition. Ukraine’s public procurement lacks transparency due to vague regulations, monopolistic practices and the exemption of state actors from transparency and competition requirements. Ukraine’s Constitution states the president is not allowed to perform any kind of paid professional activity or to be a member of a board of directors at any corporation that aims to generate profit, but President Poroshenko owns a chocolate corporation [in Russia! for all other places] that saw profits grow by 900% from 2013 to 2014 (Information, Mar. 2015), suggesting extensive corruption and embezzlement by top-level Ukrainian officials.”

    The New York Times editorial: Ukraine’s Unyielding Corruption: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/opinion/ukraines-unyielding-corruption.html
    “Corruption has been pervasive in Ukraine since independence, fed by close-knit ties between politicians and oligarchs and a weak justice system. The protests in 2014 that led to the removal of President Viktor Yanukovych were largely fueled by popular fury at his monumental corruption and abuse of power. Yet his overthrow has yet to show results.”

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  35. @annamaria
    You are deflecting from the main point: The current Ukrainian government includes some leading Ukrainian neo-Nazis; the whole Maidan affair had been contaminated with the involvement of neo-Nazis: "It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US." http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/
    And since you have decided to introduce the name of the corrupt Yanukovitch into the discussion, pray tell us about the current situation re corruption in Ukraine. After Ukraine had got its "independence" from Russian Federation in 2014 (and embraced Mrs. Nuland-Kagan plans for Ukrainians) things did indeed change: "Ukraine is 130th out of 168 countries ranked by Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index 2015." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine
    "In a country where the average monthly income is roughly $200, revelations that elected officials have personal holdings worth hundreds of millions of dollars in real estate and eccentric items, like Fabergé eggs, Japanese art, and even a ticket to space, are now causing a public uproar. In the four days since the database went public, many Ukrainian voters and Western allies have been left questioning the post-revolutionary government’s commitment to a political system defined by personal enrichment." http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/04/ukraine-corruption-declaration-poroshenko-clinton-trump-russia-oligarch/
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/23/ukraine-corruption-bigotry-western-support-russia

    You are arguing with an idiot. You write good, interesting posts so don’t waste time on this delusional clod/troll. May as well drive nails into wood using forehead than try to influence Quartermentality.

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  36. Nearly by the way, for the benefit of Señor The Saker, “ukie” is old Unitedstatesian and Canadian slang word for Ukrainians, so the translator could have nicely left out the “r” and made it “Ukonazis” to good idiomatic effect.

    Pronounced like the “Yu” in Yukon, of course. One does not know how many Ukrainians there are in the Yukon specifically but there is a huge group of ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian mezclados in Canuckistan.

    Once on the Trans Canada rail one endured the company of a Canadian Ukrainian from Thunder Bay to Vancouver or something like that. He was not a bad fellow, but competely drunk and one was amazed just how much vodka he drank.

    Surely water would have killed him.

    His topic for days was how much he hated Gringos, believe or not.

    By the way, did you know Mike Ditka patterned his appearance on his hero Oscar Homolka?

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  37. MEexpert says:
    @anonymous
    Did the saboteurs receive any training from foreigners, specifically the Americans? Similarly, are the actions of provocation home grown or being directed by foreign 'advisors'? The CIA has been heavily involved there for some time now so they've probably been doling out money and assembling mercenary forces within Ukraine to act as their cat's paw. Sabotage can't really alter anything, some people get killed and some facilities get destroyed which then just get repaired. Mostly it seems to be geared towards baiting others into doing something rash. Ukraine used to manufacture a lot of weaponry. I wonder how much is finding it's way to the other US clients, the Islamic jihadis in Syria?

    Do you see the parallel between this operation of provoking the Russians with the CIA/Israeli action of murdering Iranian scientists to get Iran to retaliate so they could bomb them in return or kidnapping Hizbollah fighters? These neo-Nazis are being trained by the Israelis.

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  38. Check out ‘Graham Phillips’ work. If there’s a walking candidate for a EUkrainian ‘snatch squad’, he’s it. And he shows up, regular, at such border control points, to piss them off.

    One would think that, given the ‘reward’ being offered for him, there would be a picture of him in every ‘grenzwache’ machine gun post.and enough ‘beefarinos’ on duty to get him into a black Opel an off to a date with destiny (NOT the famous Ukrainian ‘wannabe bride’) before he can get out a second “sieg heil”.

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  39. Unka Buck says:
    @Drapetomaniac
    The problem is that virtually everyone thinks that their idea of how to organize society is the only way or the only correct way and they are 100% for using force to enforce it. Stupid pathetic people thinking that their ideas are not those of animals, but ideas of gods.

    This is the basis of the never-ending death and destruction of government and the sorry fate of mankind.

    Geez. Could it be that our notion of religion, or our beatific vision – triggered as it might have been in the days of Alley Oop, our cave dwelling ancestor, by having a dead body to deal with one day – is enhanced somehow when we come into the presence of putrefaction? Along with joyous noises do you think the Lord might also appreciate us raising unto Him the smell of somebody elses’ rotting corpses?

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  40. @john cronk
    Shortly after Yanukovich abdicated his position and flew the coop and generic Russian guys started showing up in Crimea I began commenting on articles about the subject in The Economist. I thought then, and have the temerity to think still, that I had a better solution to the situation than letting things play out per usual.
    I wish I had saved my comments (and per your example in future I am going to, by way of a google document whenever I comment to a magazine, blog, etc)., but the jist of what I said is this.
    I prefaced my remarks by a prediction that both Russia, the new Kiev government and the West were going to look alternately belligerent, foolish, weak, indecisive and dangerous as the situation became more and more messy. I proposed avoiding this by doing the following:


    Russia, the new protester government in Kiev, the EU and America should jointly meet and come up with a proposal to allow the citizens of Ukraine to vote on whether to split the country into two independent nations along the Dnieper. Built into the proposal would be provisions for the free movement of goods and people across the new border for an extended period of time to allow for economic and political adjustments.
    Criticism of the idea was mostly limited to my supposed ignorance of the fact that much of Ukraine’s heavy industry lies in the eastern half of the country, but I hadn’t failed to consider that. Yes, there would be major economic adjustments, but what is worse about that hypothetical situation than the current one? While some Russophiles would happily hammer away on their new manhole covers bound for Moscow, meanwhile Kiev could lean to the West, and get assistance to plow ahead into the future. Eventually, the kleptocracy in Russia is going to look more and more pathetic. Even Germany (France managed it) could some day wake up to the benefits of clean nuclear power and begin to wean itself from Russia’s gas teat. In the meantime, there’s no particular reason that an independent East Ukraine would be more of a threat with regard to gas reductions to Europpe than obtains in the current, or former, situation.


    West Ukraine and East Ukraine, bordered by the Dnieper, a natural dividing line both physically and culturally, would each have its own Black Sea coast, and an eastern-leaning East Ukraine would have obviated the need for Crimea to secede. Also, West Ukraine’s Black Sea access would abut Moldova, providing a nice buffer between that tiny nation and East Ukraine/Crimea and perhaps someday encouraging its westernization. (ignoring problematic Transdnistria for the moment)


    Why would the West have liked this arrangement? It avoids all the confrontational stuff with Russia while not having much if any of a downside, and makes it much easier to help Kiev.

    Why would Russia have acquiesced to it? At the outset of this kerfuffle, Russia didn’t need or want to occupy Ukraine, or even East Ukraine. All it needed was the status quo, Ukraine as a pliable buffer state between Russia and the West, with an easily manipulated head of government. It could have had that with a new East Ukraine government.


    The protesters changed the existing equation, and rightly so, but on the other hand the protest government in Kiev needs to try to subdue and win the favor of the Russophiles in East Ukraine like they need a hole in the head. If they instead let East Ukraine form its own government and suck up to momma Russia, Kiev can then get on with the business of running West Ukraine and improve their lives much more quickly. In a few years they can build the type of economy they want, and the world will find, to the West’s pleasure, that East Ukraine will look progressively worse by comparison.
    In the meantime - importantly - there would have been no standoff between Russia and the West and its concomitant conflict and loss of life.


    But implementing this would have taken real leadership and statesmanship, instead of the usual politics as usual and gut level response to each day’s latest crisis.

    The population East of the Dneipr is not majority separatist.

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